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Episode 208-Everything You Need To Know About Hollow Nose Ammo in NJ Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer– Episode 208 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

hollow nose bullets, New Jersey law, felony offense, possession exemptions, target shooting, hunting,

carry permit, dummy cartridge, false arrest, state police advice, ignorance defense, gun applications,

carry in vehicle, law enforcement guidance, gun rights

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:16

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. As you know, or should know, I’m a practicing attorney.

I’ve been at it in New Jersey for over 35 years, focused on gun law, and I see just so many people that

are constantly ignorant of the laws, making mistakes, etc. That’s why you, the listener, are ahead of

them. Because you’re learning and educating yourself, and I’m happy to be the one to help you do that.

Evan Nappen 00:59

One of the topics that comes up a lot, and I just want to deal with it in detail on the show is what is the

story with hollow nose bullets in New Jersey? Let me explain this thoroughly so you can fully

understand what you can and can’t do, and what’s regulated and how it’s regulated. So, you’ll have a

full and complete understanding of New Jersey’s hollow point, hollow nose bullet law. You see in New

Jersey, hollow nose ammunition is prohibited, except for certain exemptions. We’re going to talk about

the exemptions in detail in a moment. The prohibition on hollow nose makes it a felony level offense

with up to 18 months in State Prison for each bullet you have that is prohibited as a hollow nose bullet.

Evan Nappen 02:15

New Jersey has this absurd law. It’s nothing short of absurd because they have determined that they

want to mandate that you have high penetration ammo at all times. I guess they decided to impose the

Geneva Convention or something on New Jersey where you can’t have hollow nose. They want high

penetration ammo so that it goes through your target and hits some innocent bystander, or something

along those lines. I have no idea why. Because the idea with hollow nose ammunition, practically, is

energy transfer. No over penetration or less penetration. More stopping power to stop the threat, which

is the whole purpose of having a firearm to defend yourself.

Evan Nappen 03:14

So, New Jersey prohibits the possession of hollow nose and then creates exceptions to the ban. One of

the key exceptions to the ban is possession in your home. So, you can possess hollow nose

ammunition in your home, and you can possess it pursuant to the exemptions under N.J.S. 2C:39-3f. of

the gun laws. Those exemptions, the activities under those exemptions, include target shooting and

hunting. You can keep this ammo at your dwelling, or your premises or other land owned or possessed

by you. Those are the exemptions. You can buy it at the gun store. You can take it home. You canPage – 2 – of 7

possess it at home. You can take it to the target range. You can take it hunting. But you cannot have

hollow nose ammunition outside of those exempted places. If you do, you’re unlawfully in possession of

the hollow nose bullets.

Evan Nappen 04:32

This gets a lot of people into trouble because they think that they are able to lawfully possess it outside

those exemptions, and you’re not. You cannot even have hollow nose ammunition in your handgun with

a Carry Permit outside those exemptions. So, if you’re in your home with your carry gun, you can have

hollow nose. As soon as you step out of your home, you can’t have hollow nose. You’re unlawfully

possessing the hollow nose because your carry does not convey a privilege to carry hollow nose. So,

don’t get tricked into thinking that you can have hollow nose simply because you have a carry permit.

You cannot. I see that as a GOFU, by the way, at times. So, be careful of that.

Evan Nappen 05:29

Now, the interesting thing about this hollow nose bullet ban is that it is the bullet itself that is banned,

not the cartridge. So, I actually had a case where a guy went through a metal detector with his key ring,

and on his key ring was one of those dummy cartridges that had a hollow nose bullet. It was drilled

through. No powder, no primer, as one of those key rings. They arrested and indicted him for

possession of a hollow nose bullet on a dummy key ring. Insanity. I had another case where a guy was

delivering pizza. He had no guns in the car, nothing. Just delivering pie. He parks, I think, maybe

temporarily in front of a fire hydrant or something. Anyway, they grabbed his car, and they towed it

while he’s making the delivery. They searched his glove box, and at the bottom of his glove box was

one .22 hollow nose that had fallen out of a box of ammo when he had gone to the range. They indicted

him for possession of five cents worth of .22 ammo right there. Yeah, it is nuts on this.

Evan Nappen 06:54

I had another guy flying out to Nebraska. He worked at one of the top sporting goods stores in New

Jersey. He’s going hunting in Nebraska. He had his hunting license already set and had his gun already

out there. He was going to fly out and enjoy a great deer hunt in Nebraska. One of the folks, you know,

a distributor of his product line, whatever, gave him a box of fantastic deer hunting ammo. Just some

box of great stuff. Expensive. He said try this on your hunt, man. It’s the best. You may want to sell it,

you know? He takes the sample box, but it was hollow nose. He goes to what is euphemistically called

Liberty Airport in Newark, what a joke, and proceeds to declare that he’s bringing ammo, which you’re

allowed to do. But when they see that it’s hollow nose ammunition going through the airport, they arrest

him and charge him with unlawful possession of hollow nose. Now the funny thing about that is he was

100% legal, even under New Jersey law. Because why did he have the hollow nose? He was going

hunting pursuant to the activities of 39-6. So, it was an absolutely false arrest. It ruined his trip and cost

him having to go through the entire judicial process for obeying New Jersey law. That’s right. All over

this dumbass hollow nose law that New Jersey has.

Evan Nappen 08:51

Now, if you want to carry ammunition that performs like a hollow point or hollow nose that actually,

arguably, may even perform better in terms of feeding and functioning in your gun, the New Jersey

State Police in their “Frequently Asked Questions”. (https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/firearms-Page – 3 – of 7

faqs.shtml – Number 13) It states that Hornady Critical Defense / Critical Duty, Cor-Bon PowRball /

Glaser Safety Slug and Nosler Inc. Defense Ammunition is not hollow nose ammunition. Because those

cartridges, those bullets themselves in those rounds, have inserts in the noses. Thereby no longer

making them hollow. So, if you want to carry a great round in your carry gun that will not over penetrate

and harm somebody unintended, then carry Hornady Critical Defense / Critical Duty, Cor-Bon PowRball

/ Glaser Safety Slug, etc. Carry the ammunition that the New Jersey State Police specifically say is

okay and not hollow nose.

Evan Nappen 10:22

Let me tell you something else about the State Police saying that. Even if the State Police are wrong in

their interpretation, New Jersey has a defense called “ignorance or mistake of law”. Yeah, you’ve

probably heard your whole life that ignorance of the law is no excuse. However, in New Jersey, it is.

Everything is counterintuitive in this wacko state. The way it works is it’s not just that you didn’t know

the law. It works in a way that if you follow the official statement of the agency empowered to make it,

or the individual empowered to make it, and you follow what that official says, that if it ends up that

official is wrong, you have the defense of ignorance or mistake of law. That can still be a defense for

you to not be convicted. So, we have that in New Jersey. This would be an official statement by the

firearms folks at the State Police, who are in charge of this very thing. So, that’s the ammo to carry if

you need to.

Evan Nappen 11:33

There’s no reason you can’t have that in your home as well. But if you want actual, traditional hollow

nose then you’re going to need to stay within the exemptions. This is extremely important. Don’t go

outside those exemptions. And if you do choose to carry what the State Police recommend, you should

also carry a little slip of paper with their advice, or at least a screenshot of their advice. Because I’ve

had cases where individuals were carrying Hornaday ammo. One of the most famous is Roosevelt

Twyne. They charged him with hollow nose when it wasn’t plainly. It was legal as per the State Police.

And it might prove helpful, if you find yourself in that situation, to show immediately for the officer to

read themselves that your ammo is legal. This is a continuing problem, continuing nuisance of absurdity

and silliness on the part of New Jersey. But look, I don’t want to see any of you become a victim of New

Jersey gun law, and your best defense is having this knowledge and staying within it. And that’s really

why I do this show. It’s the whole reason.

Evan Nappen 13:18

It’s also the reason why the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is a sponsor of this show.

They want their members to be safe. It’s our state Association that’s out there, fighting in the courts,

fighting in the legislature. Standing guard for real, with a full-time paid lobbyist, heavy litigation going

on. We just have been having victories with more victories to come as the fight continues to restore our

God-given rights in New Jersey to keep and bear arms. It’s an uphill fight, but we are winning, and the

association is behind that fully. So, make sure you join. Go to anjrpc.org and be part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 14:16

I also have to mention our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is the premier target range in Lakewood,

New Jersey. Right there in Central Jersey. Easy to get to from the Parkway. You can take advantage ofPage – 4 – of 7

a first rate facility, a great resource where you can utilize the indoor range facilities. You can get

phenomenal training. Get your certificate to get your New Jersey Permit to Carry or the courses you

need for your New York carry, and others. WeShoot offers them. Plus, you can get great training,

whether you’re a novice or advanced in shooting. A great pro shop. Just great people at WeShoot. Go

there. Take a friend, and just enjoy a day shooting at the range. It’s always one of my favorite times the

shooting at WeShoot, and it’s where I shoot personally. So, check out WeShootusa.com or pay a visit

to WeShoot and mention me. You’ll be glad you did. And watch what happens. They won’t throw you

out, I promise.

Evan Nappen 15:42

Let me also take this opportunity to remind you all to buy my book, that’s right, New Jersey Gun Law,

the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics, all in a question and answer

format. It has a chapter on hollow nose ammo right there, if you forget what I said, or need to read it, or

have it handy to show an officer. There it is, ready for you to use, with 120 other topics explaining the

insanity of New Jersey gun laws. It’ll help keep you safe, help keep you out of jail and help keep you

free. When you get the book, scan the QR in the front of it, the QR code, and subscribe to my free

subscriber base. I don’t distribute that list. It stays private, but I let you know if there’s updates, or any

changes in the law. You can get into the archives for free for any updates. So, your book will stay

current. That’s the idea. It’s my labor of love, because I love you all. So, buy my book and show me

how much you love me. Just kidding about that. But go to EvanNappen.com, www.evannappen.com.

That’s where you will find my book, New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of Jersey gun law.

Evan Nappen 17:17

So, let’s take a look at some great questions that have been sent to me. I always enjoy getting these

questions. This one is from Lawrence, and Lawrence says, Dear Evan. I hope this message finds you

well. I wanted to share a recent experience I had, which I believe could provide useful insight for your

listeners, especially those who legally carry firearms and may find themselves in similar situations.

Recently, I was pulled over by a police officer in Warren, New Jersey, while legally carrying my

handgun. As the officer approached, I kept both hands visibly on the steering wheel. Before he could

ask for my license or registration, I clearly stated, “I am a concealed carry permit holder, and I’m

currently carrying a weapon. It’s on my right hip — a SIG, P365, with one in the chamber.” The officer

calmly acknowledged my statement and asked for my documentation. I handed over my driver’s

license, registration, and concealed carry permit. He seemed completely unfazed by the situation, even

expressing his appreciation for my transparency.

Evan Nappen 18:34

When he needed to return to the vehicle to run my information, the officer asked me to step out of the

car so he could safely remove the weapon. I believed it to be a legal request, and I complied without

hesitation. We were in a parking lot with people around, and the officer did it respectfully and discreetly.

He took the entire holster, leaving the weapon in it, and I once again reminded him that there was a

round chambered. After completing his checks, the officer returned my firearm, still holstered, without

issuing any citation. He even joked about how difficult it must have been to pass qualifications with

such a “whippy little gun”. I’m writing to highlight that while there may be some officers who,

unfortunately, overstep their authority with lawful carriers, this experience reaffirmed my belief thatPage – 5 – of 7

professionalism, transparency and respect go a long way. By clearly stating my intentions and following

the law to inform the officer, the encounter was calm and uneventful. The key takeaway for your

listeners are, 1) remain courteous, 2) communicate openly, and 3) follow both the law and the officer’s

instructions. In my case, doing so led to a safe and respectful outcome. Thank you for taking the time to

read this, and I hope the story can provide some value to those who may find themselves in a similar

situation.

Evan Nappen 19:57

So, what Lawrence said there is a lot of excellent advice. We have a Duty to Disclose, meaning you’re

required to tell the officer on that motor vehicle stop, or if you are detained at any time by an officer, that

you are carrying your concealed loaded firearm. You must produce your carry permit. Failure to

disclose to the officer is a crime of Fourth Degree, a felony level offense, with 18 months in State Prison

for not telling them. Failure to have your permit on you and show them is six months max on the

disorderly person’s offense. So, you need to do by law what Lawrence described that he did. It’s very

good to be respectful and be courteous and communicate openly and put both your hands on the

steering wheel. Remember, they have a tough job, our officers. We don’t want to make it worse. We

don’t want you to get shot because they see a gun, that’s for sure. So, let’s be practical and respectful.

That all makes sense.

Evan Nappen 21:16

Now, of course, you don’t have to give the detail necessarily about what gun you have and that there is

one in the chamber, or anything like that. But, you know, you do what you feel is appropriate. That’s

okay. But you do have to disclose that you are carrying, and you do have to show your permit. Always

be courteous and communicate openly and show respect. It does go a long way. Listen, gun owners

are pro-law enforcement. I’m pro-law enforcement. I don’t want to make their job any harder. All of us

together hate the bad guys. We do. We’re on the same page. So, show them that respect.

Evan Nappen 22:05

The problem in New Jersey is that there’s an agenda, and it’s normally not an agenda of the rank and

file. It’s an agenda from above, from the politics, the folks that are high level, either brass or

Prosecutors Offices, Attorney Generals Offices, which have an anti-gun agenda that they’re forcing

upon officers. Lots of times, there’s also straight-out misinformation taking place. So, as much as I

totally appreciate what Lawrence conveyed about what happened to him in Warren, New Jersey, and

my congratulations, not just to him, but to the officer, knowing the law, following it. This situation was

respectful and perfectly fine for all parties involved. That is not always the case, unfortunately.

Evan Nappen 23:22

Recently, I got a case which occurred in Central Jersey. My client, who is very well trained, knew the

Duty to Disclose law and knew his obligation. He got stopped for a minor, non-moving traffic matter. It

was just an expired registration sticker. He very courteously and respectfully immediately told the officer

under Duty to Disclose that he was carrying his firearm on his person and that he had a carry permit. At

which time, that officer placed him under arrest and proceeded to hold him for approximately half an

hour or more. The officer told him that under New Jersey law, you cannot transport your gun loaded onPage – 6 – of 7

your person, and that his entire department had been briefed about that. Not to allow individuals to

carry in their car. How nice.

Evan Nappen 24:41

One big problem. It’s absolutely not true. They are 100% wrong about the law. As a matter of fact, this

officer even foolishly said it’s the case law. Well, actually, it’s not the case law. The case law says that

the so-called Carjacker Protection bill, that’s what we called it, in the Carry Killer law, that the transport

of a loaded handgun on your person in a vehicle, was enjoined by Judge Renee Marie Bump, and that

injunction still holds, even on the appeal. You absolutely can carry loaded on your person. No problem.

This individual had his firearm taken, and it was unloaded. The officer said, we’re going to be so nice.

We’re just going to give you a warning. Aren’t we good? Great, great. Super. Great of us, huh? We’re

cutting you a break. We’re going to give you only a warning, and you have to lock your gun up in the

car. Do not carry it loaded again in your car. That is absolute garbage. He had no right to

disenfranchise this man of his right to self-defense, and he is completely wrong about the law – 100%.

Evan Nappen 26:18

It went the opposite of Lawrence’s story, and it was not because either Lawrence or this person was

disrespectful or was anything but courteous. No, no. So, what was the difference? What was the

distinction? What was the problem? The problem was ignorance of New Jersey gun law. And whose

fault is that ignorance? I’ll tell you whose fault it is – the Attorney General of New Jersey. Because the

Attorney General has not promulgated guidance to the law enforcement community and all the

departments, making it clear what was decided in the case law and advising officers throughout New

Jersey that carry in a vehicle is lawful now, that carrying on private property open to the public is lawful

now, and a host of other things that got determined in the litigation that causes innocent gun owners to

suffer. They need the guidance. It needs to be put out there. Then the lieutenants won’t advise

erroneously their men and women, and the men and women don’t enforce erroneously on law-abiding

citizens. Taking away their rights, and maybe even worse, and then possibly subjecting themselves to

civil rights actions, no less. So, let’s see the right thing here. Let’s see our great men and women in law

enforcement be given some solid guidance about how to properly handle these situations so that

everybody is safer and better served.

Evan Nappen 28:46

Now what about this week’s GOFU? Well, this week’s GOFU is something I’ve been seeing a lot of

,folks, and this one is really simple. Do not lie on gun applications. I have many cases where individuals

put the wrong answer down when applying for a Carry Permit, a Firearms ID Card, or a Pistol Purchase

Permit. Now, many times it’s not intentional. They didn’t understand the question, or they thought they

were somehow not covered by it. Do not guess. Find out for sure. Because if you fail to properly answer

truthfully any of those questions, not only will you face a denial of the license for falsification, and not

only does that harm your own reputation as painting you as a liar, but you also can face a criminal

charge for lying on the form, which carries up to five years in State Prison. This is, of course, a felony

level offense where you will lose your gun rights forever by that conviction. It’s extremely important that

you are extraordinarily careful when filling out these forms and that you do not lie even inadvertently or

misstate something. The consequences can run the gambit from denial of your ability to get that

particular license to facing Third Degree, felony level criminal charges. So, don’t be that GOFU. If youPage – 7 – of 7

have questions, contact an attorney that knows gun law. Buy my book at EvanNappen.com to help you

understand the questions and the answers that must be truthfully stated.

Evan Nappen 31:09

This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They

protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 31:18

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by

Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and

opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E208_TrascriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

Regularly called on by radio, television and online news media for his commentary and expertise on breaking news Evan has appeared countless shows including Fox News – Judge Jeanine, CNN – Lou Dobbs, Court TV, Real Talk on WOR, It’s Your Call with Lyn Doyle, Tom Gresham’s Gun Talk, and Cam & Company/NRA News.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

Email Evan Your Comments and Questions * talkback@gun.lawyer Join Evan’s InnerCircleHere’s your chance to join an elite group of the Savviest gun and knife owners in America. Membership is totally FREE and Strictly CONFIDENTIAL. Just enter your email to start receiving insider news, tips, and other valuable membership benefits. Email (required) *

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Episode 207-Make Money Saving AmericaAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer– Episode 207 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

President Trump, Electoral College, Elon Musk, America PAC, gun registration, gun confiscation, Second Amendment, gun rights, New Jersey, gun laws, gun safety, valet parking, gun transfer, gun ownership, gun training

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:16
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, how would you like to make money and save America at the same time? When I talk about saving America, I’m talking about this election, because it is literally going to be the most important election, not only in our lifetime, but probably in a century. I mean, it’s impossible to overstate how critical it is that we succeed. And by we, I mean President Trump gets reelected, because what is on the other side, as we’ve discussed, is absolutely the destruction of America versus making America the greatest country in modern history ever. And right now, we’re sliding down a slide, and without getting into all the other issues, we’re just thinking about our issue, which is, of course, Second Amendment rights.

Evan Nappen 01:25
I want to bring to your attention something that’s really exciting. And I think if you are able to do this, not only can you make a decent amount of money, but you can help to save America. Part of the key to the saving of America is to see the success of President Trump, and that success is very much dependent upon winning in the swing states. As you know, we have the Electoral College, and because of that, it is not the person who gets the most votes in the country, but rather who wins the state by state by state, which empowers various states to have greater and more balanced political power. And so, our electoral college was really quite ingenious by our Founding Fathers, and it’s part of the reason we haven’t completely collapsed.

Evan Nappen 02:27
Because if the majority were to be the folks who select the President, then what it would mean is that the high concentration of urban centers would control America, because that’s where the population is. If you want to see the demise of such states in a microcosm, the states that are the worst have the largest, centered urban populations that sink the state for individual rights, especially gun rights. So, if you want to see the worst states for gun rights that are gun rights’ oppressive states, they have the largest urban populations. You know, look at Illinois, where you have Chicago and New York, New York City. New Jersey, which is part of the megalopolis, incredibly populated in multiple cities, like Jersey City, one of the most populated places on the planet. Look at all the bade states. To California. Look at the urban centers there. They sink the politics.

Page – 1 – of 7

Evan Nappen 03:41
So, just imagine that on a scale of the United States in general, and you can see why that’s not good. Of the key critical swing states, Pennsylvania is absolutely critical, and here’s where the money comes in that you can make. Here’s where we have something very exciting that I want to share with you. Elon Musk is an amazing man. He just is an amazing futurist. He is somebody that, when I hear him speak, he is just a fantastic person to listen to, and a guy that gets you thinking. Elon, as you may know, has come out completely in support of President Trump, and he puts his money where his mouth is. What he has done is create a PAC called the America Pack, www.TheAmericaPAC.org. (https://theamericapac.org/) Elon is now offering to pay $30 per hour, plus bonuses for performance, if you join their team to help in the swing states. Being that so many of my beloved listeners are from New Jersey and the surrounding area, Pennsylvania, that’s where the action is. Look. I know we need to fight in New Jersey, and I get it. But in the national picture, winning Pennsylvania is critical.

Evan Nappen 05:31
And if you can join here, not only can you make $30 an hour plus bonuses for performances but get ready for this. Elon, through TheAmericaPAC, will also pay $47 for each registered voter that you refer who signs a petition pledging support for the First and Second Amendment. That’s right. Elon is stepping up with millions and millions of dollars to help protect not just the First Amendment, and not just to save America, but to protect the Second Amendment as well. And you can become a part of this, a party here to this. I think October 21 is the deadline. So, you’ve got to jump on this now. Go to AmericaPack.org and make money and fight for the Second Amendment. Fight for America and take advantage of what Elon Musk is offering. I think he’s already spent $43 million a month helping Trump. And look, he’s a practical guy. He sees that the key to winning is votes. It’s not just throwing money at it for the sake of throwing money at it or running ads. He’s creating a system here that he’s paying for. To get out the vote and win the day. So, this is very exciting. Make sure if you can take advantage of this opportunity that you do. It’s critical, because we do not want to end up like Sri Lanka. That’s right.

Evan Nappen 07:30
I have an article here from AmmoLand, one of the great gun rights news services that I. I get all of them, my friends, and I look for important articles to share with you. This article is by one of their writers, who I greatly admire, and I love to read his stuff. It’s Dean Weingarten. It says, “Gun Registration in Sri Lanka Equals Gun Confiscation”. (https://www.ammoland.com/2024/10/gun- registration-in-sri-lanka-equals-gun-confiscation/) So, you know, we’ve talked about gun registration, and you know the four words, right? If not, I’ll review them again. It begins with Legislation, which then creates Registration, and that leads to Confiscation, which then leads to Extermination. We’ve seen this pattern all throughout history, preceding every great Holocaust. We don’t want to go down that road at all. And here is Sarah Lanka illustrating for us phase three of the four words, because, according to Dean Weingarten from this great article, he said, “The Sri Lankan government has issued a gun confiscation directive requiring all people with firearms and a permit to possess them for self-defense to turn the firearms, ammunition, and permits they possess to the military authorities. The firearms must be surrendered by November 7, 2024.”

Page – 2 – of 7

Evan Nappen 09:07
Look at that, folks. Registration is leading directly to Confiscation. This is why the Biden-Harris Administration wants to make sure there’s no “ghost guns”. Whoo. You know guns with no serial number. Why? Well, then they’re real hard to confiscate, and you can’t register them with no serial number. That’s really what it’s about. They want to know where the guns are, so they can grab them and take them and disarm us and disenfranchise us from our Second Amendment rights. That’s what gun rights oppressors do, and that’s what we’re dealing with. Don’t fool yourself about a Kommiela who claims to be a gun owner and says she owns a Glock. Well, how nice. Except that she also is on record wanting confiscation of ALL Handguns. I guess that’s the definition of elitist, right there. Your guns get confiscated, but she owns a Glock, supposedly.

Evan Nappen 10:12
Let me say, just because someone’s a gun owner, does not mean they’re not a gun rights oppressor. The worst gun rights oppressors in history, during the existence of firearms, ALL owned firearms. Every tyrant, every dictator, every one of them, every Fascist, owned a gun. And guess what they did? Took away everybody else’s guns. But they were gun owners. Being a gun owner does not mean you’re not a gun rights oppressor. That doesn’t mean a damn thing. What matters is whether you stand with and for and in support of the Second Amendment. As demonstrated by her past history, she plainly does not. She’s called for confiscation of handguns, and she’s called for confiscation of modern sporting rifles. She’s a gun rights oppressor and needs to be stopped. So, Sarah Lanka is yet another example of why we oppose Registration. It leads, for a fact, to gun Confiscation.

Evan Nappen 11:34
And do you know who is helping to fight for us in New Jersey? Well, that is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the premier state gun rights organization. They’re the NRA affiliate. They’re the umbrella organization of gun rights protection, and they have individual members. You can be a member, and you really need to be a member. By being an individual member, you’re sent email alerts as to what’s going on in Trenton. You’re kept advised about the ongoing litigation that has been in federal court. Very successful! Continuing the fight to defeat the Carry Killer bill, the modern sporting rifle ban and the standard capacity magazine ban. Make sure you’re a member of your state Association. You can join the Association at ANJRPC.org. (www.anjrpc.org) That is the website for our great Association. It’s critical, especially these days, that you belong, because the fight is ever requiring our vigilance. By having a great group, we are united. So, go to anjrpc.org and join today.

Evan Nappen 13:14
Speaking of great places to join, we have our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, a premier range. It’s the range I shoot at. They offer you all the training and courses you need. You can get your New Jersey CCARE there to get your New Jersey Permit to Carry (PTC). They’re also offering the New York training so you can get your New York carry permit as well. They focus on helping folks to get licensed. If you know nothing about guns, go there and they’ll help you out. You’ll be well on the road to being a competent, responsible gun owner. And if you’re extremely skilled, they’ll be able to help you to practice and get even more training from really experienced people. They also have a great, great pro shop there. They run great events. WeShoot is in Lakewood, right there in

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Central Jersey. Easy to get to, right off the Parkway. Check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com, their website, with beautiful photography. WeShootUSA.com.

Evan Nappen 14:35
Right now, I have to shamelessly promote my book, which is the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s entitled, not surprisingly, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics, all in a question and answer format. It is your user guide to staying safe and not being arrested, going to jail and being a GOFU in New Jersey. It’s the book that has saved a lot of gun owners a lot of grief, and I’m proud of it. It’s also a book used by law enforcement throughout New Jersey — State Police Firearms Unit, lawyers, judges. But most importantly, 1000s and 1000s of gun owners throughout New Jersey rely on it. And you can get your copy, too. Go to EvanNappen.com. www.EvanNappen.com. You will see the big orange book. Order it today, and you’ll have it in a matter of days. Factory fresh. Make sure you scan the front cover on that QR and join my subscriber base. It’s private. It’s free. You can access the archives, and you’ll get updates of any changes so that your book will stay current. So, go to EvanNappen.com and get your New Jersey Gun Law book. It will help you to stay free from the matrix of insanity, known as New Jersey gun laws.

Evan Nappen 16:20
I have some great Ask Evans, and I love getting the questions. This one’s from John with a question about the assault weapon ban. Good. I don’t know, maybe good. Currently building an AR-15 and already have a pistol grip, removing the ability to have a folding or telescopic stock. But my question is, if I render the telescopic stock inoperable utilizing something such as a stock Lok? Love the podcast and thank you for educating me and many others.

Evan Nappen 17:04
So, what I believe John is getting at is, how do you have a compliant AR-15 now. Of course, we have that great case that the Association, ANJRPC, helped to win finding that the AR-15 prohibition is unconstitutional, but it’s on appeal. So, don’t go relying on it yet. But we did great, and we’re going to expand it and do even better, I’m sure. For now, you want to remain compliant. So, how do you remain compliant? Well, when it comes to the compliancy, you look to the Attorney General Guidelines, which are in my book, by the way, a complete, actual copy of the guidelines. You can also find them online. The guidelines make it clear as to what the Attorney General views as compliant or non-compliant, so- called assault firearms, what we prefer to call modern sporting rifles.

Evan Nappen 18:08
The compliancy works like this. First of all, if the firearm is a semi-automatic rifle that takes a detachable mag. Okay, a semi-automatic rifle that uses a detachable magazine. Then you have to make sure you do not have more than one of the following offending features. You can have one, but you can’t have two. Two is no good. This is starting to sound like the Monty Python skit on the Holy Hand Grenade, but it’s actually how the Guidelines work. So, what are the offending features? Well, number one, a pistol grip is an offending feature. You can have one. So, you can have a pistol grip, but after that, you can’t have any of the other things. Those include a flash hider, a flash suppressor / flash hider. You cannot have a threaded muzzle, but you can have a muzzle break or a compensator. If you

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have that on there, you cannot have the threading usable. So, you need to pin it or weld it, but do not have a flash suppressor, a flash hider.

Evan Nappen 19:31
You cannot have a grenade launcher. I know a lot of you like to go out grenade launching on the weekends, but do not have that on your gun, because that’s a prohibited offensive feature. A telescoping or folding stock. That’s because, if you can move a stock a couple inches back and forth, you know that it makes it an incredibly deadly firearm whose only purpose is to kill hundreds and hundreds of people. That couple inch movement of the stock is just, you know, intrinsically deadly, right? Of course, I’m being unbelievably sarcastic. The bottom line is, look, it’s an offending feature. You need to make sure that the stock is either completely pinned or welded or glued so that it cannot move. Or simply use a fixed stock, the traditional fixed stock. Then you’re okay.

Evan Nappen 20:35
So, make sure you don’t have that offending feature of a telescoping or folding stock, and if you are pinning it with whatever device that it be sufficient and permanent. Otherwise, you may be looking at three and a half years minimum mandatory, with up to 10 years in State Prison for you daring to possess such a deadly firearm. Also, make sure you don’t have a bayonet mount, because that’s an offending feature. At least that one makes sense, because we’ve got to do something about all those drive by bayonettings, right? Oh, my God. So, beware of the offending features. Make sure your gun is compliant. And John, that is my advice to you. Thanks for the good question.

Evan Nappen 20:35
But if you have a telescoping or folding stock, I once had a case where my guy had his stock pinned, and the prosecutor was prosecuting him for possession of an assault firearm, even though he bought it lawfully from a dealer. The only other offending feature, other than a pistol grip, was a telescoping M4 type stock that had been pinned. But the prosecutor wanted to put my client, with no prior offenses, in State Prison for up to 10 years with the minimum mandatory three and a half years, because she felt it wasn’t sufficiently pinned. That’s right, whether it was or wasn’t sufficiently pinned should make the difference as to whether or not your little stock goes two inches back and forth. As to whether you do three and a half years in State Prison with a minimum mandatory sentence, sounds reasonable, don’t you think? Yeah, right. That’s what we’re dealing with here. That kind of mentality, folks.

Evan Nappen 22:51
Now I have another one from Jim. Okay, we’re doing the J’s today. Jim says, Thank you for your weekly podcast. It’s very informative. Well, thank you, Jim. My question is this. Suppose I’m going to dinner or an event where I must leave my gun in the car, locked, of course, in a locked box or console vault. When I arrive at the event, I see valet parking only. Could this be considered an illegal transfer of my firearm? Anything else I should be aware of? I look forward to your opinion.

Evan Nappen 23:23
Well, it wouldn’t be an unlawful transfer, because you’re not giving them possession of the firearm. As a matter of fact, you’ve secured it and locked it as you properly should have to avoid that very thing. If they’re taking your gun, they’re stealing your gun. You’re only giving them permission to park your car,

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and your firearm is secured in the manner prescribed under the statute, by the way, under the sensitive place exemption. So, as long as it’s locked, and make sure you have a good quality lock box and don’t leave the key on your key ring if it’s a locking one, so they can access it. You know, don’t do a GOFU like that, right? But if it’s inaccessible, you have it cabled to the seat the way they usually do, or have it built in so it can’t just be removed and walked away with and it’s secured in that fashion, then you’re not transferring, Jack, are you? So, that’s okay. But be very aware of otherwise leaving guns in cars. Because if it’s identified as such, then they may bring in law enforcement, and you may have an escalation.

Evan Nappen 24:34
Particularly bad. I’ve had many, many cases out of the casinos in New Jersey with a valet for some reason. I don’t know why. They’re just supposed to park the car. But somehow they ended up going through the glove boxes, the consoles the back of the seat. They’re like searching your car, and they find a gun and they call the police. My question. What were they looking for in the first place? Hmmmmm… Be careful of all your belongings when you valet park at the casinos, because obviously that’s what they’re up to. But if they find a gun, well, I’ve had many of those cases, and I don’t mean the gun in the secured lock box. I’m talking about, unfortunately, people that leave their gun in the car who come from other states, what have you, and they make a GOFU. The valet finds it. So, yeah, valet parking can be troublesome. They can be a big problem. Also, your valuables are subject to theft by them, not even talking about the guns. I hear horror story after horror story. I hate valet parking for that reason. But if you must valet park, make sure your gun is secured. It’s not an illegal transfer. It may lead to other problems, but not an illegal transfer. All right, Jim, thanks for a great question.

Evan Nappen 25:57
Let’s talk about this week’s segment that we all look forward to – the GOFU. That’s the Gun Owner Fuck Up. And why do we talk about GOFUs? And that’s because these are expensive mistakes made by other folks that you get to learn for free. It costs you nothing, so you don’t become the next GOFU. And this GOFU . . . Well, with this GOFU, I’m just going to talk about almost what qualifies as a public figure, the “Rust” armorer. That’s right. Remember Hannah Gutierrez-Reed? The dumb ass that had live ammunition on the movie set of “Rust” whose responsibility was to keep the place safe. She got convicted of the involuntary manslaughter. Even though the anti-gun Alec Baldwin got off based on the prosecutors’ failure to properly secure evidence and do their job, but she didn’t. She was convicted.

Evan Nappen 27:15
Well, guess what? She’s in even more trouble, even more trouble. You can read this article on TAG, The Truth About Guns. It’s by Mark Chesnut and titled “Rust Armorer In More Gun Trouble”. (https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/rust-armorer-in-more-gun-trouble/) But the reason I’m talking about it is it’s a great GOFU because of the more trouble she’s in. Forget about leaving live ammo where there shouldn’t be. That’s, of course, a GOFU on the part of her professionalism required to be an Armorer. But I’m not even talking about that. Get a load of this new stuff. When the investigator searched her cell phone during the “Rust” investigation, they found a video of her with a handgun in the bathroom of a bar, in the self-filmed video. It was shot a few weeks before the “Rust” movie filming, and she explained how she snuck the prohibited firearm into the establishment.

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Evan Nappen 28:21
So, obviously, in this jurisdiction, as in New Jersey, currently, you can’t have a gun in a liquor establishment, a licensed liquor establishment. Oh my. She pled guilty in exchange for 18 months of probation for this one, because she’s already doing time on the other one. So, what’s the GOFU here, folks? If you’re illegally carrying your gun, don’t film yourself doing it and brag about it. Do I have to say this? Do you need to write that one down? I mean, good grief. Can you believe this knucklehead was an Armorer at all? That she was in charge of gun safety issues at all? I mean, I think the negligence on the part of Baldwin was hiring her. There’s a negligence. It’s unbelievable with this person. Anyway, quit making videos and turning yourself into a GOFU. Believe me, I get cases where that’s the case. A video comes out like this, and I say, what were you thinking? Why was this even on video? Don’t be that guy or gal.

Evan Nappen 29:51
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 30:02
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E207_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 206-Red Flag Law Victimizes Another NJ Gun OwnerAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer– Episode 206 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Red Flag Law, gun owner gulag, anonymous tip, extreme risk protection order, legal firearms, assault firearms, social media posts, gun seizure, due process, constitutional violation, gun confiscation, constitutional carry, crime reduction, non-lethal carry, traffic stops

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:16
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, there was an article that just came out in northjersey.com, which is part of the USA Today News Network, and I guess it goes out in their print media as well. It’s an article by Lori Comstock, and it is entitled, ‘”Totowa man charged with ‘cache of illegal firearms’ released from jail, but case far from over.” This case, my friends, is a case that I am handling, and this involves. I’ll read you the first line of the article. “A 35-year old Totowa man charged last week with possessing a “cache of illegal firearms” following a tipster’s email to police was released from jail on conditions, but arguments among attorneys regarding the legality of the police search and of the guns has only just begun.”

Evan Nappen 01:28
You better believe it’s only just begun. So, here we have two of the key perils of being a New Jersey gun owner. First, you have the peril of the Red Flag Law, which we’re going to talk about here, and how it got used and abused. The second peril is the Gun Owner Gulag, and how treacherous those waters are, and how you better have an attorney that knows what they’re doing. Or you’re going to be waiting in jail, essentially until your trial. This article makes it clear and identifies Kyle Arena in the article. By the way, he has no prior offenses. He is an automotive welder of 17 or more years. He’s had no problems or interactions with the police. Yet, on September 24, 2024, somebody sent an anonymous email, anonymous, to the Totowa Police. The email included, and this is quote from the article. “The email included social media posts and photos purportedly showing Arena engaging in ‘reckless activity’ and posting about it on social media.”

Evan Nappen 03:07
Now, we were in front of State Superior Court Judge Thomas Rumana. After our arguments in fighting the Gun Owner Gulag where they wanted to hold them, we were able to get Mr. Arena released and that was absolutely the right thing to do. We got him released. He just has the lowest level of conditions in his release. Of course, while this is pending, he is not allowed to possess any weapons, and they’re holding his licenses. The article goes on to say that his licenses, both of which he lawfully possessed, according to his attorney, Evan Nappen, a Monmouth based litigator who specializes in gun law. Well, I don’t “specialize”. I have a focus on gun law. I’ve been working in that area for over 35 years. And as most of you know, I wrote the book New Jersey Gun Law.

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Evan Nappen 04:09
The article goes on to explain here, and it says that the police identified them as “illegal assault firearms”. This is from the article. “. . . while Nappen classified them as ‘modern sporting rifles’.” Which is exactly what they are. Not the pejorative term of “assault firearm”, even though “assault firearm” is actually found in New Jersey law, because when they passed the “assault firearm” law, they gave it that pejorative label. Then the article quotes me as well. “They appear to be assault firearms . . . ” They may. Let me start that again. “They appear to be assault firearms to the uneducated, but they’re not, said Nappen, who authored a 500 page-book on New Jersey’s gun laws. Nappen referenced a New Jersey State Police opinion letter and noted that the guns fall under the “other” category, or otherwise not identified as ‘assault’ weapons, due to their characteristics. ‘Why did he have these guns?’ Nappen asked rhetorically. ‘He’s a competition two-gun and three-gun shooter.” Arena obtained his guns legally from dealers and uses them in competitions.

Evan Nappen 05:41
You see, this is what we’re dealing with. We’re dealing with law-abiding gun owners being turned into criminals in New Jersey. Let’s take a look closely at the abuse of the Red Flag Law. In the article, it says it was a tipster’s email, and there was a claim that he had a “track record of posting illegal content on various Facebook groups.” First of all, “illegal content”? What? What? You know, the First Amendment, first of all. I didn’t know there was illegal content. All right. And the email attached several photos, and believed he was a danger to himself and others. And that, of course, is a load of crap. In one of the photos, there was an allegation that it was pointing it at a car with his hand on the trigger. As I pointed out, and as the article actually mentions, which is credit to them, that it was at best, pointing to a wooded area. It was not pointing at a car. But even with that, the photo itself is questionable as to its authenticity and its fake and/or doctored characteristics. These are all things that and think about this. All the police received was an anonymous tip, and then a look at these photos. These photos are a year to two years old even, and there’s no threats made against any person. No threats made against any group. Nothing. Just pictures of guns and these false allegations.

Evan Nappen 07:38
So, did the police go and speak to Mr. Arena? No, of course not. Did they maybe make an inquiry, ask about or anything, talk to him? Nothing. No, no, no, no. You see, their immediate reaction, simply based on anonymous tip and looking at posts that are years old, was to get an Extreme Risk Protection Order (ERPO), what is known as a Temporary Extreme Risk Protection Order (TERPO). Then it can become a Final Extreme Risk Protection Order. These are called ERPOs, but we commonly call them Red Flags. Under New Jersey’s ERPO Law, ERPOs are the general title given them – Extreme Risk Protection Order. It starts with the TERPO, which is the Temporary Extreme Risk Protection Order, in which there is absolutely no due process upfront. It gets done ex parte. The person has no knowledge that it takes place. In this case, the police didn’t even bother to talk to the person in advance to even try to find out the truth about the matter. Then from that TERPO there will later be a hearing to decide whether it’s going to be a Final or what’s called a FERPO. So, you have an ERPO, and then you have a TERPO. Then it can become a FERPO, and if it’s held in Burlington County or Bergen County, you end up with a BURPO. I’m just kidding about the BURPO. That was a joke.

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Evan Nappen 09:15
So, this is something where it is ripe for abuse. This TERPO then led to a raid and a seizure of his home and his property. Every New Jersey gun owner can be subject to this action with an anonymous tip with BS just sent to the police. Boom. Boom. You are labeled an extreme risk. Your home and privacy are invaded, and your firearms, weapons and ammunition are confiscated with no due process until the day finally comes where you can have the hearing on the TERPO. After all that damage has already been done. We’re going to be challenging, of course, the Fourth Amendment grounds for this search and seizure.

Evan Nappen 10:17
As the article mentioned, I raised the violations of the Second Amendment and referred to the recent federal court’s decision where the ban on AR-15s was found unconstitutional. All the firearms were platformed as AR-15s. In fact, one of the guns specifically was a Troy. It was a Troy. That’s right. The “other” made by Troy. The Troy A4. The one that the State Police specifically address. And it’s those characteristics and that entire opinion that you can find online that explains why they’re not assault firearms. (https://www.dark-storm.com/images/DSI-NJSP-Firearm-Letter.pdf) But it didn’t stop the State and the Totowa Police, and the criminal charges being made.

Evan Nappen 11:13
Remember, folks, possession of an assault firearm is an extremely serious offense. Every gun carries up to 10 years in State Prison with a minimum mandatory of three and a half years. And remember, under the Gulag law, the Gun Owner Gulag law, if you’re charged with possession of an assault firearm, you are required by the State to be given a recommendation of “not to be released”. That’s right. You are put in the same category as those charged with murder and those that are lifers who are looking at three strikes and you’re spending life in prison. You are put in that category over this mere allegation. It doesn’t matter. That’s what they do.

Evan Nappen 12:01
Luckily, I was able to overcome that and was able to get him out. Now we’re going to have the fight, and I’ll be talking about this in much more detail as time goes on. But I had to respond to this article that you can see online, if you wish, or maybe you’ve read it already in hard copy. These are the perils and dangers of being a New Jersey gun owner. You can become a victim of New Jersey gun law with the most minor and anonymous allegations being made. It’s an outrage. It’s a civil rights violation. It is a Constitutional violation on multiple Constitutional fronts. This is something that every one of us needs to be greatly concerned with in the state of New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 13:04
Yet, this is what Kommiela Harris wants to impose on the entire United States, folks. That’s right. She wants to push National Red Flag so that every state abuses every citizen. And I say, look at New Jersey, and the failure of New Jersey. Remember, Kommiela also wants to confiscate guns. She stated it, man. I have an article here from the NRA-ILA. It’s entitled “Canada’s Confiscation Scheme — A Lesson for America.” You can go to nraila.org, and you can see this article. (https://www.nraila.org/articles/20240930/canada-s-confiscation-scheme-a-lesson-for-america) This piece came out September 30, 2024, and it’s very interesting.

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Evan Nappen 13:55
The very first paragraph of this article looking at Canada’s gun confiscation scheme says, “Vice President and Democrat presidential candidate Kamala . . . ” They, of course, call her Kamala. “. . . Harris has, in the past, been forthcoming about her support of gun confiscation and mandatory ‘buybacks.'” They give you the citations right in the article here, and you can see them for yourself. “. . . and there’s little reason to believe that she has changed her values.” The NRA then takes a look at Canada. You can read the whole article. It’s very interesting.

Evan Nappen 14:34
Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, as the article says, instructed his ministers to examine a “full ban on handguns and assault firearms.” They’re looking to invoke this mandatory ban and mandatory confiscation program in Canada. They’re talking about it in two phases, what’s called the business phase (Phase 1) and the individual phase (Phase 2). They’re looking to start it very shortly now, because it’s been in the works, in the works. They’ve already spent, folks, according to the NRA article, C$67 million on this program. It’s just astounding. And if you think that our lefty neighbors to the north where they’re putting this through, now granted they’re not protected by a Second Amendment in Canada, they could have been if they let us win against them in the revolution. But I digress. Instead, now they’re looking at what Kommiela essentially wants to do in America.

Evan Nappen 16:01
Say, I want to bring to your attention our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is a great range in Lakewood, New Jersey. They’re holding a very special sale, and I want to let you know about it. Fifteen percent (15%) off all pre-loved guns. That’s right. Guns that have been pre-owned, and it’s 15% off. I want to make sure you know that WeShoot is now offering New York City carry certifications. So, if you want to get your New York City carry, which also allows you to carry in New York State, you’re going to need to get a New York carry certification, and WeShoot is offering it. So, check out weshootusa.com. If you’ve never shot at WeShoot, well, you owe yourself a favor. You need to go there and check it out. It’s a fantastic range. It’s where I shoot, my brother shoots, my son shoots and where we got our certifications. They have great guns and gear, great training, and just a wonderful range right there in Lakewood, New Jersey, easily accessible right off the Parkway. It’s a great resource for anyone in New Jersey, particularly Central Jersey. Geez, it’s a breeze to get there and have a great time. Make sure you check out weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 17:31
Now here’s an interesting little article that I want to make sure you’re all aware of. This is an article that I got from AmmoLand, a great news aggregate site. I love AmmoLand. (https://www.ammoland.com/) I subscribe to dozen different gun rights at aggregate news sites, and AmmoLand is a really good one. This is an article from October 2, 2024, by my friend Dave Workman. It’s a very interesting point that Dave makes here, and I want to bring it to your attention. The title of the article is “FBI Report Shows Dramatic Violent Crime Drop as 29 States Went Permitless.” (https://www.ammoland.com/2024/10/fbi- report-shows-dramatic-violent-crime-drop-as-29-states-went-permitless/)

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Evan Nappen 18:15
That’s right, folks. As 29 states are constitutional carry, there’s been this incredible decrease in crime. Yet, you never see this in the media. They always want to make you think more guns, more crime, but it’s the opposite that is true. Let me read you just the first line or so from the article that Dave wrote. “The FBI’s national crime report for 2023 shows a record-breaking decline in murders during a year when the number of states adopting so-called ‘constitutional carry’ rose to 29, undercutting a popular — and obviously false — claim by the gun prohibition lobby that more guns result in more crime.” He’s absolutely right, and it’s an excellent point that he’s making. If you want to read more in the article, by all means, go to AmmoLand.com and check it out.

Evan Nappen 19:07
Just think. We also not only have 29 states with constitutional carry, which is permitless carry, where you don’t need the permission slip to carry, but all the other states that have “shall issue” permits now, including New Jersey, thanks to St. Thomas of the Supreme Court and the Bruen decision. So, all that is impacting dramatically on crime. As Dave points out, “According to the FBI ‘national violent crime’ . . .” According to their statistics here, listen to this. Murder and non- negligent manslaughter decreased 11.6% in 2023. The estimated number of offenses in the revised rape category saw a 9.4% decrease. Aggravated assaults decreased by 2.8%. And robbery decrease by 0.3% nationally.

Evan Nappen 20:02
So, we’re seeing this great drop in crime, while you see the expansion of our right to carry. Oh, what a shock! It’s not shocking. But, of course, the media doesn’t talk about that, do they? They don’t make it clear that, in fact, the growth of our Second Amendment right to carry and to allow citizens to no longer be victims, but to be defenders, is a fantastic deterrent and causes crime reduction of the most heinous and violent crimes that we face. So, that’s a great point by Dave Workman, and I wanted to make sure that you all were aware of it.

Evan Nappen 20:51
There’s another thing that I saw, and this is from Cam Edwards on bearing arms. (https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2024/10/04/supreme-court-will-decide-fate-of-mexicos-lawsuit- against-us-gunmakers-n1226460#google_vignette) This article says that the “Supreme Court Will Decide Fate of Mexico’s Lawsuit Against U.S. Gunmakers.” This is a very important case. Because the Supreme Court of the United States, what we commonly call SCOTUS, has granted cert, meaning they will decide the case. Now we will get an opinion from them in what is the case of “Smith & Wesson Brands et al. versus Estados Unidos Mexicanos, in other words, the Mexican Government.

Evan Nappen 21:30
They brought a $10 billion lawsuit against multiple gun owners and gun manufacturers. These manufacturers include Smith & Wesson, Beretta, Century International Arms, Colt Glock and Interstate Arms, and they’re alleging that the companies are aiding and abetting drug cartels in Mexico by manufacturing and selling guns like AR-15s and magazines that can hold more than 10 rounds. This whole case surrounds now concerns the protection of the Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, which is protecting our firearm manufacturing industry from being sued out of existence, which is a ploy by the

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gun rights oppressors. Mexico has jumped into the gun rights oppression in American movement by suing the makers of the guns we know and love. Trying to bankrupt them with this nonsense claim.

Evan Nappen 22:33
Originally the case got dismissed, but then it got reinstated by a gun rights oppressive federal appellate court. Now the U.S. Supreme Court will be examining this issue. And you know, the claim by Mexico essentially boils down to, ready? That aiding and abetting criminal activity must involve something more than just making products generally available while knowing that criminals may misuse them. Yeah, well, they can misuse cars, too. Maybe we should sue over the cars that they import into America that are used by criminals as well in the commission of their crimes. Maybe Mexico owes us billions for cars that they manufacture that get used by criminals. I mean, it’s just as stupid.

Evan Nappen 23:32
So, I am really looking forward to the Supreme Court doing their opinion on this. It will also possibly have some important impact to New Jersey that has its own state law where they’re also trying to bankrupt and go after the gun companies for their lawful manufacturer, trying to work on other loopholes and such that they’re trying to create. New Jersey set up an entire office manned by the Attorney General trying to go after gun companies and such. I think once the Supreme Court speaks to the Lawful Protection of Arms Act Commerce and Arms Act here in this case, we may, in fact, get some other very useful language out of the Supreme Court in combating this tactic used by the gun rights oppressors.

Evan Nappen 24:28
I’ve gotten some great Ask Evan letters, but before I do that, I want to make sure you know to be a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the number one gun rights defenders in New Jersey. They’re the NRA affiliate officially, and they have a full time paid lobbyist in Trenton. They are the group that is litigating, as we speak, in the federal courts, challenging New Jersey’s gun rights oppression laws, including the modern sporting rifle ban, the standard capacity magazine ban, and the Carry Killer bill, just to name a few. They have made tremendous progress on these fronts. As the fight continues, you really need to be a member. You should be embarrassed if you’re not a member of your state association. It’s anjrpc.org. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is an umbrella organization of gun clubs, but they have individual members, too. You need to be part of the solution by belonging to the Association. By doing so, you’re going to get their email alerts as to the shenanigans going on down in Trenton and the progress being made in our litigation. It’s really stuff you want to know, and it keeps you on top of things. You end up protecting yourself as well as our rights. So, please make sure you join the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. (anjrpc.org)

Evan Nappen 26:02
This is when I shamelessly promote my book New Jersey Gun Law. It is the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages, and it explains 120 topics in a question and answer format. It is used by the State Police Firearms Unit, law enforcement agencies, lawyers, judges, and most importantly, 1000s of law-abiding gun owners in New Jersey. Stay on the right side of the law in this treacherous and perilous environment for gun owners called New Jersey. I’ve made it very user friendly. Get your copy by going

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to EvanNappen.com and see the big orange book right there at EvanNappen.com. Click the book, get the book, and you’ll have it in a matter of days. Scan that front cover, that QR code, and subscribe for free to my subscriber base. It’s a private list where you will get updates and be able to access the archives of any updates that I’ve done. This keeps you informed. Make sure you get your 25th Anniversary Edition today.

Evan Nappen 27:09
So, here are some great letters that I want to share with you, from my beloved listeners. This is from Syed, and he says, Regarding Gun storage laws in New Jersey. Hi, Evan. Big fan of the show. I find it really awesome and very educational. Thank you. I have a question regarding gun storage in New Jersey in one’s home. Can a handgun be kept loaded with a full magazine inside a locked safe which no one except me has access to or does it have to be unloaded with ammo kept locked in a separate container? This is for purposes of home defense. I have looked around for answers, but there is conflicting information everywhere. I’ll appreciate if you could help me out.

Evan Nappen 27:48
Okay, I’m happy to. Number one, you absolutely can keep a loaded firearm in your gun safe. What New Jersey law prohibits is allowing a minor to access your loaded firearm. As long as you’re not allowing a minor to access your loaded firearm, you can have your loaded gun in your gun safe. You can have your loaded gun under your pillow. You can have your loaded gun on your person in your home. You can have your loaded gun everywhere and anywhere in your home, as long as you’re not allowing a minor to access the loaded gun. There is no problem with that.

Evan Nappen 28:30
As a matter of fact, in the Heller decision, which challenged Washington, D.C.s requirement that you keep guns unloaded and secured and broken down into pieces and all. That’s unconstitutional to require that, even under the Second Amendment in the landmark, Heller case. So, yes, you may do so but do so responsibly and safely. Do not allow unauthorized parties to access your firearm, and never allow a minor to access your loaded firearms. The key is safety in that regard. But there’s no law otherwise stopping you from having firearms to defend yourself in your home. Thanks for a great question, Syed.

Evan Nappen 29:19
This is from Anthony regarding Non lethal carry. Dear Mr. Nappen. Is anyone working on non-lethal carry in Jersey? I realize that we can get a carry permit, but for some like my wife, who does not want to carry a lethal weapon, but would like to carry, say, a Byrna type defense gun or stun gun or larger mace would be good for her. I know the state is unreasonable, but if you can carry lethal guns, why not non lethal? By the way, your podcasts are great. Thank you, Anthony.

Evan Nappen 29:52
Anthony, thank you, and I appreciate your compliments. Let me just explain. Yes, New Jersey is ridiculous. New Jersey will give you a Permit to Carry a lethal weapon — a handgun loaded concealed on your person with a carry — but there is no such license for carrying less than lethal. The only less

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than lethal device you may carry is three quarters of an ounce of pepper spray, etc. That’s it. That’s the only thing that’s exempted.

Evan Nappen 30:25
If you’re going to carry less than lethal but it is more than three quarters of an ounce of pepper spray, or if you’re going to try to carry a Byrna as we’ve discussed on the show, or carry a stun gun, as we’ve discussed on the show, the problem is the case law in New Jersey does not find and, specifically, at the moment, says that if you go outside your home and you preemptively arm yourself with a weapon, even though it’s for self-defense, it’s not a manifest lawful purpose. You can still be prosecuted for that. As ridiculous as that statement is that self-defense outside your home is not a manifest lawful purpose. That’s the current case law now. Until that case law changes, where we get a court to actually apply the principles of Bruen to say that self-defense outside the home is Constitutionally protected, which it is, then that will invalidate that. Then the less than lethal can be carried. But until then, if you do, you might become the test case on that very issue. I don’t want to tell you to become a test case, but if you do become a test case, give me a call. Maybe we’ll change the law together. But that’s the risk that you take, and I want you to be aware of that.

Evan Nappen 31:42
Now, this letter is from Nicholas. Nicholas says, Regarding 77 years old and have a New Jersey CCW, meaning a PTC. Hello. I’m 77 years old and have a NJ CCW coming up for renewal. Are you aware of any changes in New Jersey law that would prevent me from renewing due to my age? Are there any bills in process that could stop me from renewing? Thank you, Nicholas.

Evan Nappen 32:09
Ah, Nicholas, good question. Here’s where you might be getting some conflicting information. Let me straighten it out. RPO cards, Retired Police Officer cards, in fact, act as what’s regarded as the ability for retired police officers to carry. It is sometimes looked at as being a RPO carry license, but it’s actually a card that creates a special exemption under the statute. But don’t worry about the technical when it comes to issuing of this state RPO card. There is an age limit there for law enforcement, believe it or not, at 75, but there is no age limit on a New Jersey Permit to Carry. They do not engage in age discrimination with the carry permit in New Jersey. So, when you apply for renewal, your age is not a per se disqualifier for getting a permit to carry in New Jersey. Nor should it be, because that is flat out age discrimination.

Evan Nappen 33:15
Now if you have certain problems that might come with age, you know, if you’re like the President, the senile sock puppet, then of course, someone like that shouldn’t have a gun. Obviously, they’re not, you know, they’re not competent to have a gun. But, as long as you’re competent to have a gun, your age is not a factor. You’re fine. There is no per se disqualifier. So, Nicholas, you should not have a problem simply because you are 77 years old, and God bless you. I hope you continue to have a long, long life and carry to protect your life. As a matter of fact, when you think about it, what better use for a carry permit than when you are older and not as readily able to defend yourself. By all means, it’s even more important that you know how to defend yourself, and a firearm can be a great advantage in that.

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Evan Nappen 34:14
Now, I have a letter here from Romero. Romero says, I have a Remington 700 barrel only, with no action, just the barrel. I replaced the barrel with a new one. My question is: how would I dispose of the old barrel? The barrel has no serial number. The serial number is on the action.

Evan Nappen 34:30
Well, Romero, a gun barrel is just a barrel. It’s not a receiver. It’s not a firearm. It’s just a barrel. It’s a tube. There’s nothing in New Jersey law or that federal law that would prevent you from putting the barrel in the trash. It’s that simple. It’s just a barrel. That’s it. Nothing else special. Now, if you feel worried about doing that? Well, you could, you know, cut it into pieces, or cut it in half. You could do that if you wanted to or do something else to it if you felt necessary. You don’t need to. It’s just a barrel. It’s just a tube. It’s not regulated, and it is simply scrap metal. If it’s completely unusable as far as wear on the rifling or whatever reason you replaced it, in that case, toss it. All good. You know, it’s just piece of steel that is no longer useful to you. So, no problem there.

Evan Nappen 35:36
Now we have the moment that you’ve all been waiting for — the GOFU. The GOFU, Gun Owner Fuck Up. We love them! Not that they happen to good people, but because you get to learn an expensive lesson for free. So that you don’t become the next GOFU. Now, this GOFU is based on a letter, and actually the GOFU has not happened yet. So, I really like that. Although it has the full potential to be a GOFU. I’ve seen GOFUs come about from this. So, I’m glad Andrew has written this letter. Andrew says, Regarding Traffic stops. Hey, Evan, I’ve been listening to your podcast for a long time and appreciate the work your firm as well as you do on this podcast. It helps me clear away some of the fog of New Jersey gun laws. Yeah, it’s like the fog of war, isn’t it? The video link I sent is in reference to you always reminding us not to answer police questions without a lawyer. Yeah, that’s always good. It’s from a show called Mr. Inbetween. Okay, I haven’t had a chance to watch that, but that’s cool. My question, though, has to do with traffic stops and the officer asking if I have any weapons in the vehicle. What exactly do they mean by weapons? Technically, anything in my vehicle can be a weapon, no? My hands, my cell phone, possibly a pen or a pencil. I’m no John Wick, but still a writing implement can be used as a weapon. So how do I answer the question about weapons in my possession if I’m pulled over for a traffic violation, if I don’t have a knife or firearm on me? Thanks again.

Evan Nappen 37:09
Okay, Andrew, we need to step back here, man. We have to go to the premise of your question. The question is what do you do if you’re asked about firearms or weapons. The answer is, you don’t answer any questions. You don’t have to answer any questions. You can say, “I don’t answer any questions.” Now the exception here, of course, is this. If you’re carrying a handgun with a carry permit loaded concealed on your person, then you have a Duty to Disclose that. The law requires a permit holder, as we’ve discussed before on the show, to tell the officer and to show your Carry Permit. But short of that, you don’t have to answer any questions. You don’t have to think of every conceivable weapon you might have. No less, tell the officer about it. Just shut up. Don’t answer. Simply say I don’t answer any questions. Or why are you asking me that question? If you want to ask. Why are they asking you that? Why? There’s no reason to be asking that. If the officer wants to do a pat down on you, he’ll do a pat down. You cannot and never should resist.

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Evan Nappen 38:25
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that the gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Evan Nappen 38:25
But they have to have some basis, some reason, something. But just to go on a fishing expedition when you’re pulled over and start asking you all kinds of questions. Do you have any weapons? Do you have any drugs? Do you ever have strange thoughts about women? I mean, what? Where does it end. No. Stop. Produce your driver’s license, registration, and insurance. If you have a Duty to Disclose, produce your Permit to Carry, and that’s it, folks. Nothing else. I know it’s difficult, but you have got to stand on your rights. Because if you start volunteering about all kinds of things that you think are weapons or might be weapons, guess what? Now, you’ve opened the door. Now, it’s going to be an escalation to who knows what, and none of that was necessary. So, don’t be a GOFU. Stand on your rights.

Speaker 3 39:29
Gun Lawyers is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E206_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 205-Episode 205-Biden Harris Releases Gun Rights Oppression “Progress” Report Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer– Episode 205 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun rights, firearms, gun, oppression, guns, gun violence, folks, bragging, law, oppress, new jersey, dealer, mobilizing, stolen, antimony, report, called, government, harris, executive actions

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:16
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, the White House, the Biden-Harris Administration, just released their one year progress report that they euphemistically call the “Office of Gun Violence Prevention (OGVP)”. (https://www.ammoland.com/2024/09/white-house-releases-gun-violence- prevention-office-progress-report/) But in reality, it’s the Office of Gun Rights Suppression, because that’s what they do. They work on suppressing and oppressing our gun rights.

Evan Nappen 00:54
So, this Office of gun Rights Oppression has released a report detailing all the wonderful work they’ve done in oppressing our gun rights, and I want to review this report with you. You can access it online. (https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/Year-One-Report-Final.pdf) It comes from the White House. Interestingly, the report throughout it refers to the report as the “Biden-Harris Administration”. So, it’s not President Biden. It’s the Biden-Harris Administration, by the White House’s own words. The key to remember here, folks, as gun owners, is that Vice President Harris was placed in charge of and oversaw the so-called “White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention”, which we’re going to call the “White House Office of Gun Rights Oppression. She’s the Head and Chief Oppressor.

Evan Nappen 02:11
Now, you better realize that this election is just that critical. We have a bona fide gun rights oppressor working toward incredible amounts of gun rights oppression that is proudly putting out a report of gun rights oppression. And you need to know what’s in this that they are bragging about, my friends, bragging about. It’s disgusting. If any of my listeners, I can’t imagine that you actually would fall for the lies from Komeela about her being “a gun owner”. That doesn’t mean anything. Some of the worst persons in history of the world, since there were firearms, were “gun owners”, and they were some of the most deadly of gun rights oppressors. So, being a gun owner doesn’t count for anything. What matters is what you’ve actually done.

Evan Nappen 03:24
Here we have a Biden-Harris administration bragging about gun rights oppression, putting it in their propaganda term of “gun violence prevention”. Of course, it’s gun violence, right? And so, what do they do here? They lay out their accomplishments and their roadmap to destroy our Second Amendment rights. You would think that our leaders, that those that have taken an oath to uphold the Constitution,

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would instead create a White House Office of Gun Rights Protection, expanding and protecting our cherished Constitutional rights. But no, no. This is about oppressing our rights.

Evan Nappen 04:22
Let’s take a look and take a dive into their report, the Biden-Harris record of gun violence prevention. So, that’s what they’re giving a background in. And of course, the translation is the Biden-Harris record of gun rights oppression, and what do they brag about? Well, this Office is dedicated to coordinating across Federal government and partnering with gun violence survivors, law enforcement, state and local officials, and community leaders with the shared goal of reducing gun violence. Or, in the alternative, increasing gun rights oppression.

Evan Nappen 05:06
So, how do they do this? Well, they start off with a big block quote framed in a black frame of Komeela, saying the following, and please don’t be fooled by anything she says to make you think that your gun rights are safe for you to vote for her or any Democrat for that matter. Here’s what she said, “President Biden and I have worked to address the epidemic of gun violence with the urgency it demands by enacting the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act . . .”, which was hardly bipartisan. You got a handful of Republican RINOs (Republican in Name Only) joining in. That’s it. They call it “Bipartisan”. Good grief. ” . . . – the most significant gun safety law . . .”. More of their garbage. It has nothing to do with “safety”. “. . . in nearly 30 years – and launching the first-ever White House Office of Gun” Rights Oppression. “In the year since President Biden asked me to oversee this office, our Administration has improved and expanded background checks, announced the single largest investment in youth mental health in history, and been an unprecedented resource to state, cities and local communities. We have also supported, convened, and worked alongside gun violence survivors, the families of those who have lost loved ones to shootings . . .” Oh, to shootings, not to crime, but just shootings. “. . . and other impacted individuals to tackle the trauma caused by gun violence.” Code speak gun violence. “I am committed to continuing this urgent work to ensure that every person in our nation has the freedom to live safe from gun violence.”

Evan Nappen 07:16
So, let’s take another look at that last line, folks. “I am committed to continuing this urgent work to ensure that every person in our nation has the freedom . . .” Do you believe this? The freedom. Their version of freedom is gun rights oppression. It’s taking away liberty, taking away rights. Only the twisted mind of a Democrat and of these progressive oppressors would twist it to their supporting freedom. What a joke. So, what’s the brags? Oh, here they go. “Expediting the Implementation of the Bipartisan Safer Community Act and Executive Actions to Address Gun Violence.” (BSCA) Oh, do you mean Executive Actions without the backing of the Legislature to oppress gun rights?

Evan Nappen 08:10
Well, what are they bragging about? Number one, “Expanding gun background checks and making clear that the gun show loophole does not exist.” Isn’t that weird wording? Like, that’s just weird. The gun show loophole doesn’t exist. But they’re making clear the gun show loophole doesn’t exist. Well, if the gun show loophole doesn’t exist, which we said it didn’t exist, why are you passing this to shut the gun law loophole? Now don’t expect an explanation. But they’re bragging about finalizing the rule by

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making it clear about the circumstances in which a person is engaging in the business, which is far from making anything clear. That freaking rule, that rule essentially makes it that anybody who sells a gun for profit can be deemed a dealer. Period! Period. They got rid of “for livelihood” in the definition, because those dumbass RINOs went along with it, and they’re using it to claim that anybody who wants to sell a gun for a profit at all. As a matter of fact, you don’t have to sell it for a profit. That’s how broad it is. You can be prosecuted for being an unlicensed dealer. So, this mechanism is in place, folks.

Evan Nappen 09:28
“Enhancing Gun Background Checks for Individuals Under Age 21.” What did they do? They’ve created a waiting period, a delay period. Even though you’re an adult. You can be drafted. They impose the draft. You can die for your country at 18, but you’re going to have to wait even longer and go through an extended background check if you’re under 21. Enforcing gun trafficking straw purchasing laws. As they contrive these offenses all the time against law-abiding citizens, where they create the crime for the person. “Keeping Guns Out of the Hands of Abusive Dating Partners.” So, you always want to see that expansion under that domestic violence federal definition, because that is one of the ways of gun grabbing. They have to find every mechanism to disenfranchise us, and this has been just a beauty for them. So, the more you can expand the ability to seize under a banner of domestic violence. You’ve seen that go nuts in Jersey all the time. I get those cases every week, all the time. It’s a never-ending flow. What you see is an abuse of the system, and I’ve talked about that on the show before.

Evan Nappen 10:57
Oh, and how about this one. “Implementing State Red Flag Laws.” Red flag! Red flag. Take guns without due process. That’s what New Jersey does. Their red flag has no due process until after. Until after your home’s been raided, your guns have been seized and you’ve been declared, under a Temporary Extreme Risk Protection Order (TERPO) to be an extreme risk. Then you finally get your day in court. How nice. This is just an absolutely unbelievable violation of our civil liberties, and they’re looking to enhance it because it’s another way to grab guns. “Establishing the Extreme Risk Protection Order Resource Center.” Keep pushing it. This is their gun grab. It’s great. All it takes is any person to make a claim of any sort, ex parte, meaning without you even knowing. Next thing you know, your Second Amendment rights have been taken, and you’re in jeopardy of losing them forever.

Evan Nappen 12:03
Oh, then they like to brag that in the Bipartisan Safer Community Act, “Identifying Stolen Guns.” The Justice Department has published an interim final rule to implement the provision of the BSCA. I love that it’s BS, because it surely is the “BS”CA. That allows a licensed gun dealer to search the records of stolen firearms in the National Crime Information Center to determine whether a firearm the dealer is acquiring is reported stolen. This change will disincentive individuals from stealing guns and make it more difficult to sell stolen guns to pawn shops. Let me just say, folks, just like a blind squirrel finds a nut, I’m totally in favor of dealers being able to identify whether guns are stolen. Because stolen guns are absolutely something that any law-abiding gun owner would oppose. I don’t want my gun stolen. I’m sure you don’t want your gun stolen. We don’t want to market in stolen guns. So, on its face, this is actually one of the only good things found in that bill. Except, guess what? This was supposed to have been implemented already, and it still is not available to dealers. They’ve allowed this to go on and on. They don’t want this database searchable by dealers. They’re playing it out like it’s great, but they don’t

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want that. For years, they could have done this. They could have made it accessible. No, no. They keep that database there as a trap so that dealers can be charged with unknowingly taking in stolen guns, and individuals can be charged with possessing stolen guns that they didn’t even know were stolen. They don’t want this accessible. They know that this will actually do good and help gun owners, but they don’t want it implemented. I’m still waiting for this database to be available. Haven’t seen it yet. It’d be great. It would actually have impact and make it so that you could tell whether a gun was stolen or not. At least, get an idea if it’s been reported stolen. But nope. They’re bragging about it, but they’re not actually doing it. They don’t actually really want it because it truly is something helpful. God forbid.

Evan Nappen 14:36
Oh, how about this? “Investing in Youth Mental Health.” Do you want to know what that means? Creating mental health disqualifiers as the abusive mental health system takes youths and puts them in mental health facilities on the flimsiest of grounds. So, now you have a mental health commitment that is a disqualifier for guns. It’s treated exactly the same as an adult. If any of you have had a mental health stay as a juvenile because your parents put you in there because you basically weren’t behaving and they didn’t know what to do, you’re now prohibited from guns. You need to get a mental health expungement before you can even possess firearms. That’s right. This is to increase that by who knows how many. To create more disqualified persons. Create gun seizures and create disqualified persons. You see the agenda. It’s called “gun rights oppression”, and they’re damn proud of it.

Evan Nappen 15:37
Then the so-called “Investing in Safer Communities.” That’s to coordinate with communities to increase gun rights oppression. Then they have “Implementing Executive Actions. Promoting Safe Storage of Firearms. That’s right, it’s called lock up your safety. Make sure that your security and protection is not accessible to you when you need it most. Lock them up so you can’t use them. And when they come to seize, they know exactly where they are so they can grab them. Very important. They’re talking about “Publishing Information Regarding Firearms Trafficking.” That’s the propaganda wing of gun rights oppression.

Evan Nappen 16:13
“Stopping the Threat of Undetectable Firearms.” Ooooh, scary ghost guns. Oh, you mean privately manufactured firearms? Something Americans have been doing since before this country was a country. That’s right. What’s the threat of an undetectable firearm? The threat of that undetectable firearm is that the Government doesn’t know about the gun or where it is. Oh, they say, well, you’re going to sneak through a metal detector. No, they can’t. Because the detectors aren’t all about metal, right? They can look and see. So, if you’re actually going through them, metal is almost an irrelevancy in modern technology. No, it’s about more regulation, more oppression and salami tactics across the board of this gun is evil. That gun is bad. This one is intrinsically problematic and selling it to the public. So, they can just take, take, take.

Evan Nappen 17:10
“Preventing Firearms Developed for the Military from Being Sold to the Public.” I’ll read into that, folks. As our gun manufacturers and makers create new and better technology, put a label on it as military, and then not be able to sell it to civilians. So, you can’t get the best optics. You can’t get the most

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accurate guns. Who knows what? Stop that technology. Make sure that only the elitists in our weaponized Government have the firearms. “Funding Community Violence Interventions.” More funding to help their political cronies get money.

Evan Nappen 17:48
They use all this to forward gun rights oppression, and now they have new executive actions that the Biden-Harris Administration has announced during this entire time. This is more gun rights oppression by executive fiat, without any legislation. Just dictatorship-type tactics, fascist-type tactics. Where it’s just declared. Such as “Declaring Gun Violence a Public Health Crisis.” Why is that significant? Well, if you can tie it to public health, then you can tie it to healthcare. Then they can jam it to folks for the price of healthcare. Using healthcare to have people under “Duty to Warn” tied in to get your guns confiscated. And that’s how they do it. That’s what they do in Jersey. We’re going to talk about that as a GOFU at the end of the show.

Evan Nappen 18:56
“Restricting the Export of Firearms Abroad . . . ” Oh, yes. Please hammer our gun makers so they can’t sell their product. “Disrupting Firearms Trafficking Networks.” And what does that mean? It means creating endless bureaucracy to make the sale of firearms more difficult without accomplishing anything in terms of actual prevention of criminal violence. “Supporting State Efforts to Remove Firearms from Domestic Abusers.” Again, confiscate, confiscate, confiscate.

Evan Nappen 19:29
Remember, she’s the Gun Czar, folks. This is her baby here. Are you going to vote for this person who wants to eviscerate your gun rights? Who is proudly putting out a report now about all the steps they’ve taken to attack and oppress us? “Mobilizing AmeriCorps Sites to Help Make Our Communities Safer.” So, there’s more of that cronyism going on there. “Improving Job Opportunities for Communities Impacted by Gun Violence.” Again, more ways of filtering more money that we don’t have to aid these Democrat strongholds. They want to “Partner with city and states. . . ” Partner to do what? To pass more gun rights oppression. They want to help state legislators advance legislation to combat gun violence. Oh, do you mean to increase gun rights oppression? Yes.

Evan Nappen 20:36
What do they say? Here’s what they’re bragging about, folks. They’re taking credit here saying the following. “In June 2024 we welcomed state leaders back to celebrate their progress, . . .” Celebrate their progress in oppression. “. . . and discuss lessons learned for future legislation.” In other words, when the gun rights folks won, how we can beat them. How dare they want their rights. “Since December 2023, at least 31 states have introduced new legislation to address gun violence.” In other words, to oppress gun rights. “At least 17 states have enacted new legislation . . .” Including lock up your safety in California. Gun dealer accountability law in Washington, sue the gun dealers out of existence. A victim’s compensation law in Maryland. A ghost gun ban, privately made firearm ban in Vermont. Vermont. So-called pro Gun Vermont. In New Hampshire, they call Vermont, their upside down neighbors to the left, and with good reason. A background check expansion in Maine, which, by the way, imposed a waiting period in Maine that never existed. They got a waiting period in Maine. A

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right delayed is a right denied. A permit to purchase law in Delaware, and they’re bragging about it. This is the Biden-Harris Administration. Harris. Don’t fall for her lies. This is the real Komeela.

Evan Nappen 22:24
They also talk about “Mobilizing Health Systems and Health Care Providers.” Yeah, that “Duty to Warn.” Sick. Go through the mental, go through the medical, go through the providers of any type of medical. There is no more medical privacy, folks. If you talk, you get your guns taken, and that’s law now in Jersey. So, beware. “Mobilizing Artists and Influencers.” They never miss the propaganda effort of getting these progressive left celebrities to back their play to oppress gun rights. It’s even part of this. “Mobilizing Faith Leaders.” That’s right, faith leaders, so called. Those that want their First Amendment rights to freedom of religion, but don’t want our Second Amendment rights to defend ourselves and our family. “Mobilizing Educators.” Meaning propagandizing through the public schools about how terrible our gun rights are and how to brainwash to continue the oppression.

Evan Nappen 23:36
So, if you want to see this report, you can go online. (https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp- content/uploads/2024/09/Year-One-Report-Final.pdf) The link will be on the website for Gun Lawyer. You, too, can see this report if you had any question whatsoever about what we’ll be in for if Komeela wins in November.

Evan Nappen 23:57
Hey, folks, I have some important news about WeShoot. You know, my favorite range in Lakewood, New Jersey. They’re running a 15% off on all pre-loved guns, what you might call used guns. They’re having a great sale, 15% off. That sale is running from September 27 to October 6. So, go check out their great supply of used guns and get a bargain. And also really exciting, and this is great news, WeShoot is now offering New York City Non-Resident Concealed Carry Certification. So, if you want to get your New York Carry Permit, you can go to WeShoot and take the course there that you need to get your New York Carry Permit. That’s right. This is one of the new things available now, thanks to the Bruen case. Non-residents can get a New York City and New York State Carry Permit. Of course, the application, a mortgage application is simpler, but if you’re willing to go through the hoops and loops, you need this course. WeShoot offers it. So, check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com. That’s their website. weshootusa.com Make sure you catch that great sale on pre- loved guns.

Evan Nappen 25:41
I also, of course, want to shamelessly plug my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a question and answer format. It’s user friendly, and it’s made for you to understand New Jersey gun law. What seems impossible to understand, but I’ve tried to make it so that anybody can at least get a grip on the incredible matrix that New Jersey puts out of their insane gun laws. So that you can stay legal and not become a victim of gun laws. I hear from victims every day, and I don’t want you to become one. So, get a copy of my book, New Jersey Gun Law. Go to EvanNappen.com, and you’ll see the book right there. Click on it. You can have it in a matter of days, factory fresh, delivered right to you. When you get the book, scan the QR code on the front cover. On the front cover is a QR that when you scan it, it sends you to my subscriber base. You can subscribe for free. That list stays private. You will get updates on the law

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changes, and you will have access to the archives for any past updates. So, your book stays current. Make sure you register today for free and get a copy of my book at EvanNappen.com.

Evan Nappen 27:14
On the back cover of my book, you will see a full page ad for the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the premier gun rights group for New Jersey. They are the ones defending our gun rights. They’re in federal court, as we speak. Fighting the Government, fighting the gun rights oppressors, and winning. So, this is something you want to be part of. Make sure you do your part by joining the Association. They have a full time paid lobbyist, keeping an eye on the shenanigans going on in Trenton. You want to know what’s going on. You are sent emails and alerts so that you can take action, simple action, that can make a huge difference in our fight for our gun rights. So, make sure you join the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs at anjrpc.org. anjrpc.org

Evan Nappen 28:12
So, here’s something that is very interesting to me, and I think you’ll find it interesting. One of the great news sites that I look at every day, and I look at dozens of them regarding firearms. One of my favorites is AmmoLand. I love AmmoLand, and they had an article that I want to bring to your attention. This is posted and a major, major issue here being revealed. The title of the article is “China’s New Export Restriction Choke Hold on Critical U.S. Ammunition Components. Are you prepared?” (https://www.ammoland.com/2024/09/chinas-export-choke-hold-critical-u-s-ammunition-components- are-you-prepared/)

Evan Nappen 28:59
This article is very interesting because it revealed to me certain things that I had no clue about. Let me just read you a little snippet from the article, which you can find on AmmoLand. It says, the recent decision by China to halt the export of two critical components, nitrocellulose and antimony, has raised alarms in the U.S. ammunition manufacturing industry and among defense experts. This is really critical, folks, because we’re in the middle of wars all over the world since the senile sock puppet became president. You know, his philosophy is war through weakness, and that’s what we’ve been experiencing. So, with all these conflicts and tensions and we get to the brink of World War III, there’s huge demand, and what we’re seeing is inadequate ammunition supplies for both military and civilian markets.

Evan Nappen 30:05
Here’s a fact right out of this article that’s really amazing. China accounts for nearly half of global production and supplies, 63% of U.S. antimony imports. Antimony plays a vital role for making armor- piercing ammo, night vision goggles, precision optics and for hardening bullets. Okay, it’s important for all that. Nitrocellulose, which is a gun cotton, is absolutely essential for making propellant powder that’s used in our ammo. Without these core materials, we are extremely vulnerable in our ammunition supply. Just last August, China announced they’ll discontinue the export of these materials to the U.S. That is really scary and bad news. Remember, antimony is used in the hardening of lead bullets. It’s pretty basic for what we do, folks.

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Evan Nappen 31:28
And nitrocellulose is really critical, even though it’s apparently simple enough to make. But the plant in China exploded in May 2024 and that affected supply. There are only a few companies that are able to safely make the stuff you see. So, it’s going to have a huge impact on us. Many, many places are now reporting that there’s shortages on components and powder and that it’s dwindling. They can’t meet the demand. Let me just read you here a quote from John Farnham, who’s one of the industry experts. He’s giving an important warning about supply chains. Farnham says, “Right now, most components are reasonably available, but that will begin to change soon! Two weeks ago, the CCP precipitously announced that it was discontinuing the export to the USA of nitrocellulose and antimony. These two products are indispensable in the production of propellant powders and primers. There are other, lesser sources, but CCP has always been the main supplier. I predict significant commercial ammunition shortages, starting shortly!” So, folks, you have heard the message, and you better stock up. Stock up while you can. We’re going to be hitting another ammo drought. Another ammo drought when we need ammo more than ever. Keep that in mind.

Evan Nappen 33:16
I have a letter here, which I love, an Ask Evan letter, which is from Luis, regarding paying for my son’s gun purchase. Hi, Evan. I’ve been listening to your podcast since your first podcast in 2020. Wow. It’s been that long. It’s true. I have both your books, and I love them. Well, thank you. But one question I don’t see the answer is, can I pay for my son’s firearm purchase with my credit card? Thank you for all you do for firearm owners in the communist state of New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 33:48
Okay, let me just say that it is not a good idea at all. Individuals have been prosecuted when you buy a gun for another person, and by using your credit card, it appears that you are making that purchase. Now it gets a little tricky. Because you are able to buy a gift that’s a bona fide gift, but you cannot buy for somebody else and then give them the gun, if it’s not a gift. Where they’re giving you the money or they’re reimbursing you, or that kind of thing. Because that ends up being a straw sale, and ATF has enforced this. There’s a famous case that went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, where a guy bought a gun through his law enforcement discount for his father. He bought it and then sent it to the dealer. The dealer did a transfer to the father, and he was prosecuted for that being a straw sale. Even though it went through a dealer to the father. It didn’t matter. The Court upheld it, folks. It’s precarious. So, I would not advise paying for anyone else’s firearm because you don’t want to have that issue. I know it sounds ridiculous, but you know how it goes. These gun laws are ridiculous, and they’re enforced to ridiculous absurdities. I don’t want to see you become a GOFU, but that’s not today’s official GOFU.

Evan Nappen 35:28
Today’s official GOFU is a little trick, a sneaky trick, that I’ve been seeing done by the authorities, by the Government. If an individual is engaged in an act of self-defense, a legitimate act of self- defense, but you know how when you engage in self-defense, often you get criminally charged? I mean, that shouldn’t surprise anybody. What we’re seeing is, and I have actual cases on this. An individual who exercised self-defense, the government brings a red flag TERPO, you know, like the gun rights oppressors keep pushing that New Jersey has. They bring that TERPO (Temporary Extreme Risk

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Protection Order) first, and there’s no criminal charges yet. They use that as the excuse to speak to the person who they’re serving the TERPO. So, it becomes a tool of their investigation.

Evan Nappen 36:33
By speaking in the TERPO, where you think you can’t believe that this is being filed, and you’re making more and more statements, those statements end up being used in an escalation in your criminal charges to try to undercut your claim of self-defense. It’s a dirty trick, and it’s used in this manner. You need to beware of any time you have someone from the Government wanting to talk to you, whether it’s a TERPO, Temporary Extreme Risk Protection Order or Duty to Warn where a health professional called the police on you because you happen to say that you were so mad at somebody you could kill them, or you had such a bad day, you could kill yourself. Even though it was hyperbole, and you never meant to do any of those. It doesn’t matter. It’s like making a bomb joke at the airport.

Evan Nappen 37:27
If you have any encounter with law enforcement where they want to talk to you about anything, you need to say, talk to my lawyer. You need to put that lawyer between you and the Government every time. It’s your Sixth Amendment right to counsel, folks. And the TERPPO is used as a tool, actual cases on this now, being used as a tool to escalate into criminal charges and to use as a vehicle to gain questions and interrogation tactics against law-abiding gun owners simply exercising self-defense. So, keep that in mind. Remember, gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 38:26
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo music New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E205_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 204-Kamala Harris Sucks Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer– Episode 204 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun owner, guns, new jersey, search, consent, firearms, constitutional carry, law, gun rights, state, vote, oppressors, president trump, rights, carry, probable cause, folks, gun, second amendment rights, america

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen, President Trump

Evan Nappen 00:19
Hello, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, let’s discuss Komeela. That’s what I like to call her, Komeela. And Komeela is the old bait and switch, folks. You know, all those millions of people that voted for the senile sock puppet suddenly had their vote erased, basically eliminated, in a bait and switch. Komeela got installed, and now the big con is on. Essentially her campaign could be summarized as a mystery grab bag. You don’t know what’s in it, and she’s not going to really tell you what’s in it. She wants you to vote for the mystery grab bag.

Evan Nappen 01:15
However, it’s actually not that much of a mystery when you know what she has done in the past. What she’s trying to put forward now is, I’m a gun owner. I’m a gun owner. Oh, well, if someone’s a gun owner, that just means they’re fine. They’re great. They have to be one of us, right? And nothing could be further from the truth, because, frankly, I don’t know any gun rights oppressor who isn’t a gun owner. Being a gun owner doesn’t make you someone who wants to defend gun rights. Not at all. As a matter of fact, I know people, who are not gun owners, but vigorously defend gun rights. So, being a gun owner doesn’t mean a damn thing.

Evan Nappen 02:14
What does matter is what you’ve advocated for in the past, what you have wanted to do, and the statements that you’ve said in the past. Not what you’re trying to persuade the public about now, within weeks of an election where you’ve been put there without a single vote to try to fool America. And you know, the Democrats have done this before. You may recall the Senate race in New Jersey, where the torch, you know, Robert Torricelli had to get out of the race, and they anointed the corpse there, Frank Lautenberg. He wasn’t elected by anybody, right? Doesn’t matter. And guess what? He won, folks. Remember that — he won. So, they’re up to their old tricks.

Evan Nappen 03:20
Now we have Komeela trying to persuade us with smoke and mirrors. She’s a gun owner, and she’d shoot somebody, too. How nice. Except what’s the real Komeela? Well, I’ll tell you. Recently, a clip of her speaking when she was the lead, top prosecutor there, the district attorney. She made her views pretty clear, and remember, this is her acting as the prosecutor, as a district attorney, where their goal

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is to protect the Constitution, to protect our rights as well, find and enforce in terms of justice. Remember this is their job and what they’re supposed to do. You need to hear what she said when she was in the position of power when it came to our guns and our gun rights. Mr. Producer, please play the clip of Komeela.

04:40

It’s people who own guns who are quietly sitting on those guns, and those guns might end up being the weapons of the destruction of a community, because they get in in the hands of some kids who decides that they like what they see on television and they want to act that way. So, this is about just basically saying that we’re going to require responsible behaviors among everybody in the community, and just because you legally possess a gun in the sanctity of your locked home doesn’t mean that we’re not going to walk into that home and check to see if you’re being responsible and safe in the way you conduct your affair.

Evan Nappen 05:15
So, did you hear that? It’s not going to stop them from going into your home and checking your guns. Imagine that! No probable cause, no warrant. I mean, screw the Fourth Amendment. I mean, you might have a gun, so we just have a right to go check and if we don’t like what we see or what we find as we invade your privacy as a gun owner. Focused on gun right suppression, which remember, encompasses all our rights here. You just heard the real Komeela. You just heard this person, who wants to be our President and leader of the free world, talking about a policy, an opinion, and a view of our Second Amendment rights that, my friends, is pure gun rights oppression. That is how a gun rights oppressor speaks, and you better realize it.

Evan Nappen 06:39
This election is unbelievably critical. I know you hear all the time how important elections are, but this one has to win the prize. We are literally talking about our country as we know it, our rights as we know them, being destroyed by Komeela and the Democrats. Okay? That’s who’s out there to completely change what we know and love for the worst. Versus their opponent, President Trump, who will do the opposite! Who will empower us, protect our rights, protect our gun rights, protect all our other rights, change us into the powerhouse that America can be and make us again the absolute greatest nation on Earth. It’s a choice of becoming a Third World authoritarian country like Venezuela or any of these other banana republics. And look, they’re already doing the Banana Republic thing by law fair and their political opposition. Looking to censor free speech, just void out our Fourth Amendment rights, as you heard her talking about right there.

Evan Nappen 08:38
You’ve got to make sure, absolutely make sure, that you are registered to vote, and that not just you vote, but you get your friends and family registered to vote. As I talk to my audience, who are people that treasure all our rights, and particularly our Second Amendment rights, President Trump had something to say about that. What he had to say is true, and it’s sobering. But you need to hear it. We all need to hear what he said, what he said while he was on the Greg Gutfeld show. Mr. Producer, could you please play President Trump.

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President Trump 09:42
If the gun owners voted. I mean, the gun owners are just a massive proportion if they voted, but they vote, like at 16% or something. If the people, because they want to take your guns away. She wants to confiscate your guns. She wants to take them away. You know, she’s now trying to get out of it. So, she had policies that she’s now changed 14 policies about fracking. She was totally against, for 15 years, fracking. Now, all of a sudden, a short while ago, she came out in favor of fracking. Same thing with guns. She said, no, no, I don’t want to take your guns. I don’t want to. For 20 years, she’s wanted to take your guns. All of a sudden, a short while ago, she said, no, no, I don’t want to. One thing about a politician, they always revert back to where they were at the beginning.

Evan Nappen 10:23
So, there you have it. President Trump is telling the truth. She wants to take your guns. Komeela, good old Komeela, wants to take your guns. She’s lying about all her policies, or even simply not speaking about them. But did you hear what President Trump also said about gun owners? How only 16% or so actually vote, and if they did vote, it would make all the difference. He’s right. He’s absolutely right. So, do not be one of those folks that own guns, that cherish our rights, cherish our gun rights, who do not vote. Let’s turn that around. Make sure you’re registered to vote. The threat is real. Do not be turned into a non-entity by not voting. Get out the vote. Help others to get out the vote.

Evan Nappen 11:47
If we do that, we can win this, and it will be the shining times for America. We will have our gun rights so secured for generations because President Trump will appoint even more pro-gun Supreme Court justices. President Trump will do what’s right across the board for our country. For our energy, for immigration, for all those issues that are destroying us. We can make the difference. I don’t want to just be preachy here. But you heard what Komeela has to say from her own lips, and you heard what President Trump had to say. And guess what? Both are speaking the truth. Both are speaking the truth. Komeela is talking the truth about what she believes in that clip. President Trump just told you the truth, and that truth bothers me. It bothers me that we’re not out there in full force, exercising our power at the ballot box. Make sure you do that, folks.

Evan Nappen 13:11
One of the ways that you can stay informed is by belonging to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the gun rights premier organization in New Jersey. They are litigating on behalf of all of us in the federal courts as we speak, challenging the Carry Killer law, the modern sporting rifle ban and the standard capacity magazine ban. They are standing guard, watching over the legislature with a full time paid lobbyist. They’re making a difference. You need to be part of that organization. They will also help you to know the threats that these individuals that are gun rights oppressors are placing upon us. So, you want to join Association, and I strongly suggest you do. Go to anjrpc.org and become part of the solution when you join them.

Evan Nappen 14:24
If you want to stay on top of the gun laws that are changing, both for good and bad, as we continue our fight against the gun rights oppressors, make sure you get a copy of my book. It is, not surprisingly, called New Jersey Gun Law, and it is the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages with 120

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topics, all in a question and answer format, so that even you can understand New Jersey gun laws. To get your copy, go to EvanNappen.com. You’ll see the big orange book. Order it, and you’ll have it in a matter of days. You’ll be glad you did. When you get the book, scan the front cover, and subscribe for free to my updates and the archives. The book will stay current for you. It’s used by police, lawyers, judges, and most importantly, 1000s of law-abiding citizens throughout New Jersey. And you’ll use it as well. I guarantee it. It is indispensable if you’re a gun owner in New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 15:43
If you’re a gun owner in New Jersey, one of the things gun owners often do is look for a place to shoot. I have a great recommendation for you, and that is, WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, New Jersey, right there in Central Jersey, conveniently located off the Parkway, the famous Garden State Parkway. You know, we drive on a parkway, and we park on a driveway, but we have the Garden State for that. Sometimes I’m parked on the Garden State Parkway. Yeah, you know what traffic can be. But anyway, that is the range where I got certified, my brother got certified, and where my family shoots. It’s a great range. You’ll love the indoor range where they have tremendous trainers. They can get you fully equipped with all the guns and gear. Get your CCARE certificate so you can get your carry in Jersey. It’s great place. I know you’ll love it. Check out weshootusa.com. Beautiful website, beautiful photography. WeShootUSA.com.

Evan Nappen 17:03
Here is something that I really, really love to see. It’s a new law being proposed that’s pro-gun rights. Imagine that. Now, obviously this law is not going to pass right now. But if gun owners get off their ass and vote en masse, we could actually make this happen. Okay? And what I like about this law, this bill that’s been proposed, is that it is a new dawn in just the issue itself. And what issue am I talking about? Well, you know, folks, we’ve struggled for years to finally get “shall issue” carry. We struggled for years to even be able to have a carry permit issued as “shall issue” in New Jersey. Now, of course, the gun rights oppressors’ response was a hissy fit with the Carry Killer law. Yeah, you’ll get a permit, but we’ll try to make it useless by limiting where you can actually use it. But that strategy is falling to pieces as the Association is winning in their litigation. Nonetheless, we fought hard to get our ability to get a carry permit in New Jersey. The whole fight of legal carry. The history of it. Remember, I’ve practiced law, been an advocate for our rights, battled these things in the courts, defended law-abiding citizens, and I’ve seen this history in the making firsthand. When I first started practicing law, well over 35 years ago, the idea that we’d have a “shall issue” permit to carry in New Jersey was a pipe dream, but it’s now reality. We’re making it even better and easier, and it is on the correct trajectory.

Evan Nappen 19:35
Well, one of the things that was proposed through the years that I actively supported, and I bet many of you did, was what we call National Reciprocity. Now, National Reciprocity was the idea to have a law that mandated that every state recognize every other state’s license to carry or permit to carry a handgun in the similar way that driver’s licenses are recognized. Of course, this made sense, but the gun rights oppressors have stopped it politically every time. When it’s come close, the Democrats have invoked the filibuster rule to kill it by a vote or two so it could never pass. Once we defeat the gun rights oppressors, this new bill that’s been proposed actually makes National Reciprocity obsolete. That’s right. What kind of bill would make national reciprocity obsolete? Well, let me tell you what bill that is.

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This is a bill an idea, and just getting this idea out there is wonderful in and of itself. I give a lot of credit to Republican Representative Thomas Massie of Kentucky, who has proposed HR 9534 (National Constitutional Carry Act). (https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/national-constitutional-carry-measure- introduced-in-congress/) What his bill is, are you ready for this, folks? National Constitutional Carry. Oh, my God, I love that. Don’t you love that? National Constitutional Carry.

Evan Nappen 21:33
Because, you know, now in the growth of the concealed carry liberty movement, not only do we have “shall issue” and the win in the Bruen decision, but we have more than half of the American states and over 70% of the geographic territory of America Constitutional Carry land. Meaning you don’t need a permission slip from the Government to carry with Constitutional Carry. If you’re legal to possess your gun, you can carry it. Period! No permission slip needed. Now the idea of National Constitutional Carry is as sweet as sweet gets. Let me tell you what Massey stated. He said in his introduction of the bill on X, he said, “No one should have to beg the government to exercise a constitutionally protected right anywhere in the country.” Amen. No one should have to do that. His legislation says, “Certain states and localities have enacted gun control laws that are not consistent with the text of the Second Amendment or this Nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation. The criminalization of peaceable, public firearms carry is repugnant to the original meaning of the Second Amendment.” Damn right.

Evan Nappen 23:24
This bill has two provisions. Let’s look at both provisions to get this idea out there, understood, because we can push this and push this. We can vote. We can change the political dynamics in this country, and we can get this passed. We could do this, folks. Provision number one says, “No State or political subdivision of a State may impose a criminal or civil penalty on, or otherwise indirectly dissuade the carrying of firearms (including by imposing a financial or other barrier to entry) in public by residents or nonresidents of that State who are citizens of the United States and otherwise eligible to possess firearms under State and Federal law.”

Evan Nappen 24:26
The second provision says, “Any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage of a State or a political subdivision of a State that criminalizes, penalizes, or otherwise indirectly dissuades the carrying of firearms (including by imposing a financial or other barrier to entry) in public by any resident or non-resident who is United States citizen and otherwise eligible to possess firearms under State and Federal law, shall have no force or effect.” Beautiful, just beautiful. This National Constitutional Carry law will finally make the Second Amendment, our Second Amendment rights, exactly what the Founding Fathers intended those rights to be. This is exciting. This idea has finally been put out there as a bill that not only makes sense and reflects the truth, but it is a bill that actually reflects what is already the majority of states in America and 70% of the land mass in America.

Evan Nappen 26:09
So, it is not farfetched. It is not a pipe dream. It is something that can be made a reality. It’s being made a reality, step by step, as each state becomes Constitutional carry, but this will force it on those states that still engage in gun rights oppression. It is something that we can fight for and gain our rights back. And I wanted you, my listeners, to know about it, because it shows you. It shows you that there’s hope

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and that there is an offensive that we can still take, and boy, we’re going to take it. I’ll tell you when it starts. It starts with this election. So, make a difference. Make sure you, your friends, and family are registered to vote, and you all actually vote, because these are the kind of things that we can get done. It’s critical.

Evan Nappen 27:30
Now I have some of my favorite, favorite letters that come in to Ask Evan. I really love getting your letters and answering your questions. I look forward to doing these letters, and I know you, my listeners, enjoy them as well. So, here is a letter, and actually, it is something that I’ve received in a couple formats here, believe it or not. What it says is, and this one is from Ed, it says on a recent podcast, you said to never consent to a search. How can we politely and respectfully do that? What should we say and how would we say it, so as not to be a jerk while maintaining our rights. Thanks for your work fighting for rights, and your podcast is a never miss for me!

Evan Nappen 28:40
Well, Ed, I appreciate it. So, your question is, how do we politely and respectfully not consent to a search? And it’s really very simple. All you have to say to the law enforcement officer who is requesting a consent where they have no probable cause whatsoever, but they just want to engage in a fishing expedition at your cost, and they’re asking you to consent to a search of your home or your car. All you have to say to be polite and respectful is, go fuck yourself. Just kidding about that, folks. I would not actually advise saying that. You might think it, but what you can say is simply, “I do not consent to a search.” Now, why would you say, “I do not consent to a search”? Are you being a jerk if you say, “I do not consent to a search”? And look, I totally understand Ed and I appreciate what you’re saying. We want to be respectful, because we are respectful. Law enforcement has a job to do, and we get that. I don’t want to have a society without law enforcement. I’m not in favor of defunding the police. I don’t like the bad guys and the criminals, but I also love our Constitutional rights. Especially when you’re in a state like New Jersey, where there’s an agenda from above that forces our great men and women of law enforcement to have to enforce this agenda.

Evan Nappen 30:38
You want to be clear that you do not consent to a search. Just say those very words but say them in a nice way. Don’t say them in an obnoxious, nasty, terrible way. You simply say, “I don’t consent to a search.” By saying you don’t consent to the search, you make it crystal clear and unmistakable that you don’t consent to the search. And why is that so important? Because if the search is going to take place anyway and you have plainly not consented by saying that you don’t consent, it’s going to be a question as to whether there was probable cause for the search. As to whether there was sufficient justification under the Fourth Amendment for the search.

Evan Nappen 31:33
And let me say something that seems to be a problem with people getting it through their heads. Not consenting to a search is not probable cause to do a search. Some people will tell me, well, if I don’t consent to the search, they’ll think I’m hiding something. So what? That doesn’t mean there’s probable cause for a search because you didn’t give up your Constitutional rights. It is your right, not their right. It’s your right. Don’t consent to giving up your rights. By not consenting, you actually protect your rights.

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And by being clear about not consenting, you protect your rights, and that’s what we must do. It’s not to be insulting to the officer who’s trying to do their job. It’s not insulting most of the time when an officer is a person who recognizes they have a job to do, but it’s actually sympathetic to the gun owner. If you refuse the search by saying, I don’t consent to the search, many times they’re secretly glad. I’m not kidding, secretly glad, okay? You didn’t consent to the search. Well, then they’re not going to search. Oh, well, guess they’re not searching. It isn’t necessarily anything that they’re going to be upset about.

Evan Nappen 33:12
Not necessarily, folks, not necessarily at all. Because let me tell you something, I get a lot of referrals of people that get in trouble, and they call me to represent them. And do you know that many, many of those referrals, and I appreciate it, come from the police officers themselves. How can that be? Why would an officer refer the person to me to defend them? Because they know that they have a job to do, but they are sympathetic to the gun owners. They know. Believe me, they’re not referring some guy that just, you know, robbed the bank. Oh, call Nappen, and they’ll get you off. No, they’re not sending them. They know who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. They know what laws suck and shouldn’t even be on the books. But they’re forced to do their job and which ones don’t. Same comes to this, my friends. Be polite. Be respectful. But stand on your rights and make it clear that you’re not consenting. Because if that search still takes place, then we’re going to seek the protection of the Fourth Amendment.

Evan Nappen 34:37
Now we come to one of the most favorite segments of the show, and that’s the GOFU. The Gun Owner Fuck Up. And why do we talk about GOFUs? Because a GOFU is a very expensive lesson that gun owners have learned that may have cost them their gun rights, their freedom, etc., that you get to learn for free by listening to the show. Now today’s GOFU is based on a letter that I received. It’s not yet a GOFU that has impacted this person writing, but it sure has the potential. That’s what I want to warn you about. So, this is from Chris, and I appreciate the letter. Also, I have another one, very similar from Jim, believe it or not. Here’s what Chris writes, and I’ll read you what Jim writes regarding. Oh, I’m sorry. You know what? This is not a GOFU. Here’s the GOFU. The GOFU is from Jim.

Evan Nappen 35:56
Before I get to Jim, where I do have a second letter, by the way, that is from Jim. He did a follow up. I guess this letter from Chris. Let’s just go to this one, not the GOFU, though, this too could be a GOFU. Chris says, regarding New Jersey Permit to Carry – Duty to Disclose — possibility of cased firearm searches. Hello, Mr. Nappen. I’m a regular listener to your informative, entertaining Gun Lawyer podcast. Thank you for producing such valuable content. I am a New Jersey Permit to Carry holder, and I understand my Duty to Inform a law enforcement officer if stopped while actively carrying concealed firearm on my person, and also now, punitively, when I’m simply transporting case handguns at the range. My question pertains to maintaining my legal rights against a subsequent vehicle search after my mandatory disclosure. Other than requesting to inspect the firearms where they have a right to do if they’re investigating as they do, might I be transporting in my vehicle at the time of the stop, etc, yes, can I refuse the search inspection requests of my cased firearms? So, the question is a good one. It’s about Duty to Disclose and its ramifications. So, recognizing, as Chris does, that you have to disclose if you have that carry permit, even if you’re transporting the firearms to the range, and you

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have that carry permit, to what degree does it open up for more searching? And that is where, again, you do not consent to a further search. You have to disclose, and they do have the right to inspect the handgun if there’s that “investigation”. But further searching, you do not have to consent.

Evan Nappen 37:51
Now, let me just make this clear. Your consent and not giving it is one thing, but if you do not consent, you have no right to stop or resist the officer from searching. The fact is that you just want to be on record that you’re not consenting to further search, but if they insist, they’re going to search without probable cause. They’re going to conduct an illegal search. Well, that’s on them. It’s on them. They’ll have to explain to the judge, and maybe even in a civil rights lawsuit, why they thought that was okay when you clearly did not give your consent. But Duty to Disclose is currently the law, and we have to abide by that Duty to Disclose. Challenges are in the works, actual cases challenging it. I don’t know. I think it has one foot in the grave, but we’ll see. For now, I don’t want to see that GOFU on you for not disclosing. Still, after you disclose and do allow for inspection of your carry handgun, as the law requires, do not consent to further searches. Never resist in any way if the officer wants to continue searching without your consent.

Evan Nappen 39:19
Now to the big GOFU. The big GOFU is from Jim. Jim says, I love your podcast. I have your book and one you signed 25 years ago. Yes, you must have Nappen One, the book that started the legend there. Actually, they sell for a lot of money online. I don’t know why that is. Kind of funny, but I’m glad you have it. I’ve been at it a while. I’m glad you have the book and kept yourself out of trouble, hopefully using it. Jim says, my question is, I live with a woman, but we are unmarried. Well, I am not judging that, that’s for sure. Together, we are raising her three now adult offspring. Two of them live with us, and one has moved into an apartment he shares with a roommate. Moving from a big house, not the big house, I hope, from a big house to a small apartment, he has left many things behind, including . . ., can you guess? I bet I can guess. I have a New Jersey Firearms ID Card and a carry permit. Is he, the gun owner, or me, the house owner, at risk? Is anybody at risk? Thank you. Then this must be the same Jim who sent me again regarding, is this a GOFU? My son moved out to an apartment he shares with a roommate. As the apartment is small, he’s left behind many things, including his guns. Is he or I at risk? I love your work. I have your new book. I also have a 25 year old autographed version of your first edition. So, I actually have two letters from Jim, which shows me how much he wanted me to take his question.

Evan Nappen 41:04
Jim, I’m happy to. Because this is an important thing, and I run into this in the practice. If he has moved out and he’s no longer a resident of his old house and he’s actually changed his residency, the question becomes, how is he storing his guns at a place that is no longer his residence? Because residency is the exemption under 2C:39-6 for keeping guns, and he can’t store guns at somebody else’s residence. So, now the guns are being stored there, and it’s not exempt for him. The problem is, well, what is your risk if the guns are there? Your risk even arguably could be if the State tried to allege they were unlawfully transferred to you. Or if the guns are present there and not owned by you but claimed to be owned by him, can they somehow be combined in some conspiracy charge? Who knows how far the gun rights oppressors are willing to go?

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Evan Nappen 42:22
A likely, common scenario is if this person who has moved out, who left his guns in your house, has some kind of issue with the new roommate, where some domestic violence allegation has been made, let’s say, or some other problem like that. Then it comes out that his guns are at your house. Guess whose guns are getting seized? Not just his, but yours as well. Whereas if he stored his guns at his place, they would have no reason to come to your place to take your guns over any potential problem that the other person might have. I see these things happen all the time with innocent third parties having their guns seized, particularly in the abuse of the domestic violence law, where guns are seized instantly.

Evan Nappen 43:26
You know, it’s more difficult to get a ticket at Wawa to get a deli sandwich there, than to seize guns in New Jersey, you know? I mean, it’s ridiculous. So, you’re opening yourself up to added liability for losing your own guns. The nature of the possession of everybody there, with guns that don’t belong to you, guns that belong to him, but there’s no longer an exemption, can create a whole host of problems that we might have to sort through. Even on getting guns returned that belong to you or fighting criminal charges. So, keep it clean. Don’t have firearms that don’t belong to you and don’t belong to somebody who’s not living in that household in the house there. It’s simple. You don’t want to be a GOFU, and there’s plenty of potential there for that to happen. I appreciate all the questions, folks.

Evan Nappen 44:35
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 44:46
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E204_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 203-New Imprisonment Threats by Gun Rights Oppressors Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

new jersey, gun, firearms, stickers, report, gun rights, jersey, requested, law, trenton, guns, camden, township, california, pretrial detention, bar, place, gulag, newark, switches

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:19
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I need to tell you about a very serious threat. A threat of imprisonment of gun owners. What I call the Gun Owner Gulag. Only, they’re looking to make it even worse. I’m going to tell you about this threat, and they’re concealing the threat as the way the gun rights suppressors often do. They promote one thing while pushing other things that are even more detrimental to our gun rights, and in this case, our personal liberty and freedom and not being imprisoned and held without bail to the extreme.

Evan Nappen 01:23
So, let me tell you what I’m talking about here. We have to be aware of this because it’s coming, folks, and this is step one. What I’m talking about is the report that just came out from the New Jersey State Commission of Investigation, and it is called “Illegal Firearms Use & Trends in New Jersey.” If you want to see the actual report, of course, there is a link to it in the transcript at the Gun Lawyer website. (https://www.nj.gov/sci/pdf/SCI%20Illegal%20Guns%20Final%20Report.pdf) Now there’s a little letter that’s attached to the report, and this letter is sent by Tiffany Williams Brewer, who’s the chair of the commission. This letter is being sent to Governor Phil Murphy. The letter states, “The State Commission of Investigation, pursuant to N.J.S.A. 52:9M-1 . . .”. It’s funny. It’s m1 isn’t it? “. . . to -20, herewith submits its final report of findings and recommendations stemming from an investigation into illegal firearms and gun violence trends in New Jersey.”

Evan Nappen 02:28
So, immediately, you know, it’s largely bullshit, because they’re using the word “gun violence”. Right? Got to talk about it as “gun violence”, not “criminal violence”. God forbid, the State Commission Investigation actually looks at criminal violence. No, no, that’s not what this is about. So, what does this report talk about? Well, this report is being, if it’s talked about at all, what’s being talked about is their concern about “ghost guns”. Woooo scary? Ghost guns. Which are, of course, privately-made firearms, which Americans have been doing since before the country was a country. But it’s always scary to tell the ghost stories. So, here we go. All right, bad enough, and use of 3-D printers to manufacture guns and gun parts. Well, we already have a ban on that in New Jersey anyway. And they’re focused on switches. They’re talking about Glock switches because Glock switches are so easy to make on a 3-D printer, and they convert Glocks very quickly to full auto.

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Evan Nappen 03:47
They can’t stop the frequency Kenneth here, because it’s out there, and anyone with a 3d printer can download how to make Glock switches. The Glock switch goes on the back of the Glock, very easy to put on. You click the switch and your full auto with your Glock. So, they’re very concerned about this, because so many Glocks are being recovered that are full auto switches. A lot of this stuff, even if you don’t three print it, is being sold by the chai coms into the U.S., but they don’t focus on that here, of course. Anyway, the whole report seems to be, you know, the primary push is all about that, and that’s bad enough. They mention that switches themselves in New Jersey are not prohibited by New Jersey law. So, in a way simple, there is no unlawful possession of a Glock switch law in Jersey. However, they’re federally prohibited. It’s like possessing a machine gun. So, you get a federal charge for the equivalent of possessing a machine gun if you have one of these things, whether New Jersey, independently, has a switch law or not. Regardless, it’s federally prohibited anyway. But again, they got to crank it up and create the fear. You know, “ghost guns”, and these are all over. Okay, so that’s their normal gun right suppression stuff they do. But here’s where the additional things in the report that aren’t being emphasized are truly scary, way scarier than ghost guns and Glock switches. In my opinion, what is way scarier is because of its impact on gun owners, law-abiding gun owners, in New Jersey and what they intend to do.

Evan Nappen 05:52
Let me fill you in. This report lists five or actually six points, if you will. The first point is, I’ll read them to you, but I’ll breeze through them real fast. “1. Although it is illegal in New Jersey to use a 3-D printer to manufacture guns and gun parts, state law fails to criminalize the possessing of printing plans to create gun parts, which could lead to further deterrence.” So, now they want to expand it to 3-D printing of even just having plans. They want to go at First Amendment rights to have even just information. They want to expand that already exists on the plans to make the weapons. You know, they want to expand that First Amendment violation for freedom of speech here. “2. State law does not prohibit the possession of switches that enable a semi-automatic weapon to be transformed into a machine gun, despite these devices being accessible to purchase for as little as $20 online.” “3. A small number of guns are driving a large share of the violence in numerous New Jersey municipalities, suggesting that current state law and prosecutorial strategies do not adequately address multi-shoot firearms.” That’s sure a lot of vague bullshit to jam more gun rights oppression up our butt, isn’t it?

Evan Nappen 07:20
And this is where it really gets bad, folks. “4. A disparity between the timing of pretrial detention decisions and the availability of National Integrated Ballistic Information Network (NIBIN) data analysis precludes valuable information from being considered in bail decisions.” Now, I’m going to get into detail about what that really means in a moment, and that combines with number five. “5. Current Public Safety Assessment (PSA) risk factor calculations fail to accurately reflect the dangerousness of firearms.” And then six. “6. Additional protocols may strengthen shooting intelligence collection.” (Page 3 of the report)

Evan Nappen 08:17
So, what does this really mean? Why is this so scary? Why is it such a threat? And why do we need to be very much aware of this? Because this report, I guarantee you, is going to be a basis for future

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legislation. In that legislation, they’re going to put restrictions and new laws in that are going to dramatically affect the ability to imprison gun owners in the Gulag for extended periods of time. Let me explain how. They claim in the body of this report that a small number of guns are driving a large share of violence in numerous municipalities, and that current strategies don’t address multi-shoot firearms. So, what the hell are they talking about there? They’re talking about different shooting events and things that happened in Paterson and Newark and Trenton, etc, and they said current community gun laws address the issue of the same guns being used again. Yeah, we’ve had that for a while.

Evan Nappen 09:33
But here’s where they’re sneaking it in, folks, and it’s going to jam it to law-abiding gun owners. “Similarly, the reckless or intentional public discharge of a weapon is not explicitly addressed by New Jersey’s criminal laws. Instead, public discharges of a weapon are now generally treated as criminal mischief – an offense equivalent to spraying graffiti on a wall or breaking someone’s window.” (Page 7 of the report) Oh. Discharge, reckless discharge. Reckless discharge. Hmm. Do you mean when somebody has an accidental discharge in Jersey, of which I have case after case after case, and the state decides to criminally charge them with recklessness? Do you mean those things? Yeah, you see.

Evan Nappen 10:36
Then, when you get deeper into it, what does it say in their recommendations part? It says, we need to criminalize firearm discharges. It states, “When crafting legislation to criminalize firearms discharges, lawmakers should consider laws . . .”, which is the signal, right? Whoop, whoop. Please make this law happen, and of course, they’re going to. “. . . enacted in other states that have criminalized the discharge of a weapon under specific conditions or if a shooting incident occurs near particular locations. For instance, Pennsylvania has a law against ‘the knowing, intentional, or reckless discharge of a weapon into an occupied structure.’ Florida law prohibits knowingly discharging a firearm in any public place, or on or over a public road, or from a vehicle located within 1,000 feet of any person. Those laws are akin to how New Jersey’s criminal statutes address drug-related activities that transpire in close proximity to schools.” (Page 11 of the report) Okay, so what are they going to do? They’re going to criminalize ADs (accidental discharges). And you know that New Jersey is going to make it so broad that any AD is going to get criminally charged. It’s going to happen. It’s going to come under reckless, and they’re going to make it a new way to throw you in jail. And it doesn’t end there.

Evan Nappen 12:16
Extending from that is their point 4. where they want extensions for pretrial detention hearings for gun offenders pending ballistic analysis. What does this mean, and how does it relate to what I just talked about and beyond? Let me explain. The recommendation is, “To enable judges to consider more complete information concerning a defendant’s possession of a firearm at the time of the offense when making pretrial decisions, the Legislature should amend the Criminal Justice Reform Act to permit those proceedings to occur beyond the current statutorily required timeline in cases where firearms analysis is pending.” (Page 11 of the report)

Evan Nappen 13:13
Here’s what this breaks down to, folks. The pretrial detention system, which we’ve discussed in the show before, is what I call the Gun Owner Gulag. In New Jersey, there’s no more cash bail. If you get

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arrested and charged on a gun offense as a warrant, which is the normal way they do things, you’re going to be held for up to 48 hours, guilty of nothing, until the prosecutor decides whether or not to seek pretrial detention. They have to make that decision in 48 hours. If they decide to seek it, which on gun cases they regularly do, then you can be held, and normally are, for up to five more days before a hearing where a judge is going to determine whether you’re going to get out or not. If the judge decides you’re not getting out, then you’re staying in until your trial or until your matter is pled out. Months and months or years. You’re in the Gulag, my friends. That means you’re virtually guaranteed seven days just on being arrested and charged.

Evan Nappen 14:21
What they want to do now is expand the time period while you’re sitting in jail, guilty of nothing, where there is no bail anymore, so they can extend out for who knows how long before you even get your hearing to get out. Oh, based on what? Based on their need to do analysis of the firearm. Analysis. Ballistic reports. How long are they going to wait? Months for ballistic reports? What type of analysis? Do they have to get their experts in? Reports on what? Boy, you can see that this is just so ripe for abuse. God forbid you have an accidental discharge. Oh, my God. Now you are charged with reckless. Now you’re in the Gulag. They have to do firearms analysis. You’re guilty of nothing and just held, imprisoned, by the gun rights oppressors. This is their plan. I’m giving you advance warning. Mark their words. That’s the reason for this report, folks.

Evan Nappen 15:33
Then they say they want to reassess again, the recommendation. “5. Reassess the Public Safety Assessment (PSA) Risk Factors to More Accurately Reflect the Dangerousness of Firearms.” (Page 12 of the report) What does that mean? I’ll tell you what it means. When you are subject to the Gulag and you’re subjected to that hearing to determine whether you’re going to be free pending your trial, a test is done. An analysis of two scales called PSAs – Public Safety Assessment. I do these all the time. There are two scales. One is, are you a flight risk? It’s on a scale of one to five, and the low numbers of what you want to see. The other test is criminality, danger, etc. It’s that second test that they abuse the hell out of already. Then the judge looks at those scores and puts that into their consideration of whether you’re going to get out or be held until your trial. Proven guilty of nothing. There is no more bail.

Evan Nappen 16:34
Well, now what they want to do is they want to make those factors include the “dangerousness of firearms” themselves. You know how dangerous those dreaded black rifles are, who only have one purpose, to kill hundreds of people. Right? And how dangerous a magazine that holds all those bullets, right? Let’s see what it says. “The Commission recommends that the Judiciary reassess the Public Safety Assessment risk factors, particularly to address cases in which firearms are discharged, but the conduct would not be currently categorized as a violent offense. The PSA’s violent offense list should include reckless and public discharge of a firearm, including but not limited to instances when public discharges are charged as criminal mischief or endangering another person offenses. . .”, which is so easy to be charged on any AD, “both of which are presently excluded from the violent offense categorization.”

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Evan Nappen 17:51
That’s right. They want to put it in to keep your ass in jail with no proof of guilt, no due process of any substance other than this pretrial detention hearing in front of a judge with this. No jury, no nothing. You’re stuck in jail. They also want to look at any time a gun is fired in public, shooting events, etc. So, they’re going to couch it all in that concern, folks. Then make their broad stroke law like they always do, and it’s going to jam up law-abiding citizen after law-abiding citizen. It’s already the Gulag, and this is their plan. You heard it here on Gun Lawyer first. You have got to stay vigilant.

Evan Nappen 18:49
The way you stay vigilant, number one, is to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs because they’re monitoring this stuff in Trenton. They have a full time paid lobbyist. When you’re a member, you’re going to get the email alerts. They’re going to give you the easy way to let your opposition get known, by pushing those buttons that send the emails that let your voice be heard. They’re there trying to stop and monitor these things. This is on the horizon. Very, very soon, we’re going to see it as a proposed law, and it’s going to be bad. They’re going to look to enhance the number of gun owners that are incarcerated. If you’re a gun owner, they view you as a criminal. They view you as a threat. This is what gun rights oppressors do. You need to join the state Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, ANJRPC.org, and help fight for your rights. This is just one of hundreds of things that the gun rights oppressors try to do, but this has dramatic and real impact. I know how they play. I know what they do, and it is extremely dangerous to our liberty.

Evan Nappen 20:26
I also want to tell you another way to protect yourself and that’s to get my book, New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. That book will help you not become a GOFU. That book will help guide you through the crazy matrix of New Jersey gun laws. When you get the book, you need to scan the front cover. Then you’ll get the updates. When they push this law, and hopefully not, but if they pass this law or any version thereof, I’ll be updating the book, and you’ll be right on it. You’ll get the alert and the new update, so you’ll know what’s happening. This way, you can guide your behavior accordingly. Take advantage of that. Also, if you want to buy the book, just go to EvanNappen.com. That’s my website. EvanNappen.com. You’ll see the big orange book. Click it to buy a book. You’ll have it in days, a matter of days now.

Evan Nappen 21:30
Let me also mention our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor pistol range in Lakewood. It’s where I shoot, and it’s where I got my CCARE training. My brother, my son and my wife, too. On and on. It’s a great place. I know you’ll love it. They have excellent training, a phenomenal facility, so conveniently located right in Central Jersey. They have a great website, too. weshootusa.com Beautiful photography. What a great bunch of folks. I give them my highest recommendation. Make sure you check out WeShoot in Lakewood. You’ll be glad you did.

Evan Nappen 22:12
So, let’s take a look now at some very interesting, quick little headlines. Then we’re going to get to something that’s really a lot of fun. I mean it. First of all, I want to mention that the U.S. has seized over 350 websites that were being used to import gun parts from China.

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(https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-seizes-over-350-websites-used-import-gun-parts-china-2024-09- 11/) That’s right. They finally, finally. They’ve been letting it go on with ads on Facebook, ads all over the place for suppressors and auto switches and everything. It’s been going on for years. They finally got off their ass and did something about it. Wow, I’m like, in shock, but you know. Yeah, the Chi-Com are selling all these things, and then what happens? They track it. Then they come to your door and arrest you. So, they were too busy using the Chinese to set up gun owners in America. They finally had to clamp down on it, because they couldn’t keep up. It was allowed to go on for so long. Basically too little too late, but they finally moved on it. How nice. Okay, good.

Evan Nappen 23:30
I have a letter here, a follow up from last week on an Ask Evan. This is from Art who says, regarding is a pharmacy drive-thru a prohibited place. Remember, we talked about dispensaries and all that. Now, if they’re dispensing medicine, it’s a dispensary, and that’s how we’re going to have that big battle. But Art says, Hey, Evan, I listen to your show every week. I appreciate that. Thank you, and I always learned many things. Thank you so much. You mentioned the pharmacy and CVS or Rite Aid being a prohibited place. What if you’re in your car at the drive thru? It’s an outside location accessible to the public, and assuming there’s not a “no firearm” sign at the entrance, you should be okay. But does the act of accepting your prescription at the window constitute being at a dispensary, since they’re in the act of dispensing your medication?

Evan Nappen 24:21
Frankly, the answer would be yes, because that’s dispensing. While you’re there, that’s part of the pharmacy. It’s the pharmacy’s property, and it’s being used as part of the dispensary to dispense you the medicine. Before you drive up to that window, you better not have your gun loaded concealed on your person, because it could be alleged that you’re in a sensitive place. So, your best bet is to park and then use the sensitive place exemption to unload and secure your firearm properly, as we’ve discussed in the past. Then go inside and do what you need to do. Because it is a potential problem, and you don’t want to be a GOFU. We have got to be extra careful, even though the state Association is litigating this as we speak. But for now, you have got to be really careful.

Evan Nappen 25:18
Okay, let me talk to you about something that I thought was really funny, and it just deserves to be discussed. I want to give you more details than you may have even heard, because I know you’ll appreciate it. So, you know, one of the things that the gun rights oppressors have done in Jersey through Murphy and Company, was to offer the no guns at the premises stickers. Free stickers to prohibit guns at premises. Now they didn’t offer a “guns welcome” sticker. No, they used your tax dollars basically there to promote the prohibition of firearms. They set it up where you could just go online and order these free stickers. Well, it’s hilarious. I’m going to read the names of the people and places that actually requested these due to the excellent work of John Petrolino, who is a wonderful writer. (johnpetrolino.com) You can catch him on Keep and Bear Arms and AmmoLand and other great gun rights publications. John is just a dynamo when it comes to revealing and gaining information. He did a Freedom of Information through New Jersey. He got the Government records request and actually got the data of the folks that requested these stickers. He got the complete list of all businesses that

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requested “gun free zone” decals through the program announced by Attorney General Platkin on March 21, 2024, and the list is detailed. It’s really great, and here you go.

Evan Nappen 27:10
Okay, number one, and we’re going to go through them. Southern Ocean County Chamber of Commerce in Ship Bottom. They requested it. PTA, Treasurer of Woodbury. Who knows if that’s real or not? LW, Inc of Fort Lee. Here’s a good one. Ready? You Are Infringing On My Constitutional Rights from Springfield. CGC Cafe in Metuchen. Artigiano in Pine Brook. Cenzino Ristorante in Oakland, New Jersey. Turdo Vineyards and Winery in Cape May.

Evan Nappen 27:10
So, we’re going to talk about the names on this list. Some are legitimate businesses that you may not ever want to give your business to because they are joining in gun rights oppression. Frankly, I don’t like to support those businesses. But then there is a slew of activists who decided to request these stickers and use hilarious names for their requesters. So, let’s take a look at who requested the obvious legitimate ones that you need to take note of, and the obvious hilarious ones, of which are even more than the legitimate ones.

Evan Nappen 28:01
Now, let me just say this. Some of these places that serve alcohol, which is currently a sensitive place, may have gotten these stickers only because the law already prohibits it until we overturn that. They may just be doing it because they don’t want customers to inadvertently be in a sensitive place. So, there may be a benefit of the doubt, maybe, to some of the bars and restaurants that are putting up the stickers because they serve alcohol and are sensitive places. Other places that requested the sticker are already sensitive places. So, you may want to inquire at these places why they got it and what their intention was.

Evan Nappen 29:29
Beacon 70 in Bricktown. Maypoint Hospitality in Cape May. By the way, this entire list will be listed and linked on the Gun Lawyer website. You can see it there for yourself. Butte County District Attorney’s office in California requested the New Jersey sticker. Okay, nice. DW Vineyards in Ringos. Adelaide Cellars in California. The Paper Mill Playhouse in Millburn. M Group in Alachula, Florida. The Sentinel of Gloucester County in Malaga. Trenton Thunder in Trenton. This is a good one. Ready? Ban 2A Meow, Ban 2A M in Kansas. Coyle & Morris LLP in Morris Plains. Heffs in Franklin Lakes. Bozos in Phoenix, Arizona. Uncle D’s Damn Fine Donuts in Arizona. Underwood Management Solutions in Gilbert, Arizona. Zed’s Beer-Bado Brewing in Marlton. Station House LLC in Manasquan. Dismal Harmony Distilling in Morristown. MGG in Michigan. The U.S. Army in Columbus, Georgia.

Evan Nappen 31:11
VaporCore in Denver. Here’s a good one coming up here, folks. I love this one. Ready? Seal Clubbing International from Clayton, North Carolina. Okay? Seal Clubbing International. Reflections Holistic Books & Novelties in Acworth, George. Leftwich Way? Leftwich Way. That’s pretty good. In Columbia, Maryland. Delilah Glass in California. Sticker Palace in North Augusta, South Carolina. They asked for a bunch of them at different times. Maybe they sell the stickers. I don’t know. Vandelay Industries in

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California. These aren’t even in New Jersey. Guns-R-Us in Alabama, wanted it. A Restaurant. It doesn’t say where in Vineland. Paper St. Soap Company in Arizona. Moms Demand Action in California. Borough of Woodland Park in Woodland Park. A1 Carpentry in Randolph. Bottone in Toms River. Jimmy Bomb in Haddon Township. Second Amendment Does Not Support Gun Restrictions in Sayreville. Good for them. Westin Mount Laurel in Mount Laurel. CLR MFR in Hackensack. Carlough Manufacturing in Upper Saddle River. Dominico Winery in Neptune City. Coop Corp in Hamilton. We The People in Wallington. A in Port Norris. Booterbeer Brewing Company in New Jersey. Mothers for safe funs in Kendall. Waste of money in Kendall. RR Real Estate in Bridgewater. RelianTax Advisory in Hazlet. Beach Haus Brewery in Belmar. Ventnor Coffee in Ventnor.

Evan Nappen 33:20
Flemington Jewish Community Center. That’s just great. Make sure you make that a “no gun zone”. It will surely stop any terrorist from wanting to attack the Jewish Community Center. Their signs just work like magic. Great idea. Flavors Soul Food Restaurant in Newark. Millers Ale House in Ocean. Flemington JCC, another great move there to put that sign up there in Flemington. BeConnected in Bayville. A whole bunch of Your Mom Incorporated from Michigan. Knoll Country Club in Boonton. Something called Home in Hackettstown. OT Imports in South Carolina. Fucking Your Mom LLC, San Diego, California. Gotta love it. We the People in Highland Lakes. CWC in Long Valley. Sticker Palace, again. Eurabizc Feriel LLC in Philly. TyrannicalGovernment Officials for Prison from Belmar, New Jersey. Township of West Orange. King Pin Bar & Restaurant in Egg Harbor Township. Pops Farmstand in Chesterfield, Mass. Psych Detective Agency in Framingham, Mass. Gun Free Zone, Franklin, Tennessee. Club Krafty Tutoring Services, Philadelphia. Bar Restaurant / 45th pub in Edgewater Park, New Jersey. Ohioans for Gun Sense, of course, Ohio. NRA in Portland, Texas. GMMI in Battle Ground, Washington. Uncle Joe’s Crackhouse, Bluffton, South Carolina. Gotta love those boys. Uncle Joe’s Crackhouse. Yep, I guess that’s what they’re calling that they’re in DC these days.

Evan Nappen 35:32
The Seed Shop, Dale, Indiana. Herrera Gun Store, Bluffton, South Carolina. Springfield Nuclear Power Plant, Goose Creek, South Carolina. WashU, Concord, Mass. Dilligaf. Now you know what D, I, L, L, I, G, A, F, stands for? Of course, that’s a great one. Dilligaf from Oregon. Ephemeral, Inc, Berlin, California. East Coast Rebel Militia in Delaware. Taco John’s in Texas. Chez Moi in Woodstock, Georgia. Pete’s Auto Repair in Ferndale, Washington. Ventura GLAD in Thousand Oaks, California. Jersey Girl Brewing in Hackettstown. Camden Thomas in Waverly, Iowa. The FBI in Newark, two requests there. LLC, llc, Sterling, Virginia. Flambeau Inc in Wisconsin. J&R Supply in Hudson, Florida. Aft in Trenton, New Jersey. Cycles and more from Tennessee. Cyber Security from Freedom, Indiana. Windridge and FGC both of them from Texas. Wade Enterprises from Florida. Working on a name from California, about seven or eight of them. Sofa King from California. Sofa King. I get it. Bill Bob’s Candle Shop, Opelika, Alabama. FURIGHTS, Washington, District of Columbia. Loras College, Iowa. NRA in Dayton, Ohio. Camilla’s Pet Disposal in Cherry Hill, New Jersey. Right’s Coffee & Tea, Cherry Hill, New Jersey. AFT, Phoenix, Arizona. Jip llc, Springfield, Virginia. Jager Inc, Gurley, Alabama. Construction Subcontractor, Lacy, Washington. Can you believe how many are just out-of-staters? Must like grabbing stickers. I love it.

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Evan Nappen 38:10
Huddy’s Inn, Colts Neck. Res Natura, Newark, New Jersey. Your Mom Incorporated, about 1,2,3,4,5,6, a whole bunch of them. Oh, here’s about eight of these. Ready? Dick Handlers, and that’s from Tyler, Texas. Dick Handlers requested a whole bunch of stickers. So did Peeon2nd, Pee on the second, and that’s from Tyler, Texas. And then Dick Handlers, again, about a dozen of them from Tyler. Tyler must have done now, no 20 of them there. Congratulations to Tyler with Dick Handlers and Peeon2nd for getting a whole bunch of free stickers from Jersey. TownSquare Diner, Wharton, New Jersey. Rusty Rail Brewing, Mifflinburg, PA. Beachside Condos, Hampton, New Hampshire. ATF, Washington, New Jeersey. No, Washington, DC. Sorry, that’s an easy one to mix up. Anti-gun store, Oregon. Walmart, Newcastle, Pennsylvania. Tyler’s at it again, folks. Unconstitutional Tyrants, a whole bunch of them. Freedom Squashers, another one from Tyler. Then a whole bunch of Dick Handlers, maybe a dozen, then a whole other UnconstitutionalBS from Tyler. Then a whole bunch more Dick Handlers from Tyler. Oh, he’s taking up an entire page on the spreadsheet, good for Tyler. Then he takes up a whole other page with GobacktoDC, a whole bunch of them and then Unconstitutional Tyrants. Another entire page of them, dozens and dozens from Tyler. He was having a grand old time. Then a whole other page from Tyler of Dick Handlers and Come and Take It, come and take it. And Evil Ryrants and P.O.S. Tyrants. We know what P.O.S. means.

Evan Nappen 40:18
Then the American Legion in Sayreville. Frederick Dempsey Post 266 of the American Legion in Neptune. Southwood Bar & Grill, West Deptford. Squan Tavern, Manasquan. 1911 Smokehouse Group, Trenton. Plymouth Group, Bronx, New York. New Jersey License Beverage Association, Trenton. Gateway Bar & Liquors in Atlantic Highlands. SelfCorp in North Carolina. BATFE in New Jersey. Farmers & Bankers Brewing in Woodstown, New Jersey. Then, here we are. Tyler’s at it again, folks. Remember Ruby Ridge, five of them. Then Leave the US, three of them, and then an uncountable number of Dick Handlers, taking up a whole other page. Now we get to Bogeys Sport Bar in Clifton. Squan Tavern, Manasquan. Millstone Wine and liquor in Franklin Park. James Glynn Inc, Jersey City. Manchester Township in Manchester. West Patterson Liquor, Woodland Park. Plumstead Township of New Egypt. Cherry Hill Brewing in Cherry Hill. Just Street Deli in Vermont. Jimmy Geez north and Jimmy Geez, that’s both. One’s in Oak Ridge, and one’s in Haledon. Cherry Hill Women’s Center. And that’s in Cherry Hill, of course. Wolfe & Kron Books in Asbury Park. I’m glad they like the First Amendment there, but I guess they don’t like the Second Amendment there.

Evan Nappen 42:03
Cabeza de la Vaca, Big Spring, Texas. Neher Data Systems, Tinton Falls. Safe Care Ambulance, Forked River. Middlesex Elks in Middlesex. Forked River Fire Department. Club Eclipse, Newark. First Baptist Church, Morrestown. Yet, as you know, houses of worship are not a sensitive place. Jerzee’s in Asbury. Maize Westfield in Florham Park. McLaughlin Stauffer & Shaklee PC in Wall. Wingcraft LLC in Atlantic City. Bobby Corp, Hamilton/ Cherry’s zlounge in Jersey City. Old Town Pub, Bordentown. Domes Meus, that’s in Ohio. I don’t know what it is. Fox House Brewing in Bordentown. Anglesea Aleworks, Wildwood. Tomasella Winery, Hammonton. Township of Woodbridge, Woodbridge Township. American Legion Post 294, Pemberton. American Legion Department of New Jersey, Waretown. Greenbriar Oceanaire Community, Waretown. American Legion Post 209, Scotch Plains.

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American Legion Post 450, Pequannock. American Legion Post 470 Kenilworth. Mystic Island American Legion Post 493, Little Egg Harbor. American Legion Post 86 in Newton.

Evan Nappen 43:45
Some clubs in Camden and Sicklerville. It just says Clu. ECLC Inc in Newark. Horseshoe Tavern, Morristown. JJ’s bar and Package Goods, Sandyston. Brookdale Community College, Tinton Falls. Cape May Brewery in Rio Grande. Ortley Beach Moose Lodge 399 in Seaside Heights. Vs services in Plainsboro. LK Group in Manville. LisasTipsyCorner in Paterson. Sontort Food Services dba Brunello Trat in Flemington. Tir na nOg in Trenton. Brotherhood of United Firefighters in Camden. BPC Restaurant Management, Garwood. Paulsboro Sportsmen’s Association requested three in Paulsboro, New Jersey, for whatever reason. Harmony Township, Phillipsburg. Blue Sunday Bar & Grill, Linden. Bella Vista Country Club in Marlboro. By the way, the Blue Sunday is in Linden. Mahwah Wine and Liquors, Mahwau. East Hanover Police in East Hanover. Cenzino Restaurant in Oakland Borough, New Jersey. Tankard Pub, Burlington. 412 Lounge & Latin Bar in New Jersey. Blackwood VFW Post 7927, Blackwood. Freddie’s Dugout in Paterson. Patten Point Yacht Club, Long Branch. Township of Irvington. Striped Lion Distilling in Woodbury. Bowling Alley in Egg Harbor Township. Mauricetown Gun Club in Millville. Union Plaza, Haslet. Club Eclipse, Newark. The Asbury Hotel in Asbury Park. Vizzini Corp in Lyndhurst. OT imports in South Carolina. FFGO in Illinois. I hate liberals.com, Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania. Subway, Paramus, New Jersey. US Hazards, Berea, Ohio. Brazos Valley Service Rifle Association in Lyons, Texas. Golden Eagle Program Dallas, Texas.

Evan Nappen 46:20
Hammonton Discount Liquor in Hammonton, New Jersey. Wilshire Caterers in West Orange, New Jersey. Pete & Elda’s Bar in Neptune City. Triangle Liquors in Camden. Camden Arts Yard, Voorhees. Sophie’s II Bar, Camden. Pride of Camden in Camden. Eddie’s 2 Liquor Store. Eddie’s Liquor Store in Collins, with the other one is in Camden. Tom Liquor Store in Camden. Haddon Liquor Store, Pennsauken. Various liquor stores in Camden. Keep in mind that liquor stores are not a sensitive place because it’s not consumed there, unless they have bars there, too. Bars and restaurants with no names throughout Camden and Pennsauken. Liquor stores and nightclubs with no names.

Evan Nappen 47:20
There you have it. The complete list of those who requested “Gun Free Zone” stickers. Many, many, many are from out of state. Many may have been simply done because of opposition research by gun clubs. Of course, without a doubt, our hero is Tyler, Texas. They had a great deal of fun and let their beliefs be known in a way that we can all appreciate. So, I thought you’d enjoy that. Any of the places that you may have recognized there that are legitimately trying to oppress our gun rights, I wouldn’t give my business to them.

Evan Nappen 48:16
Now, of course, we have the famous and most popular segment of the show, which is the GOFU. Today’s GOFU is, don’t put your guns or store your guns in ovens. Yes, I’m not kidding. This is from an article by Tom Knighton. (https://bearingarms.com/tomknighton/2024/09/10/this-is-why-you-shouldnt- store-guns-in-ovens-n1226171) He picked up on this report, and I appreciate his writing as well. And what he said is police in Virginia have issued a warning for people not to store guns or anything else

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inside their ovens after a frightening incident, Chesterfield Police said last week. Firefighters responded to a home after the owner’s oven exploded. An investigation revealed that someone turned on the oven with a handgun inside. The weapon heated up and five rounds went off.

Evan Nappen 49:14
Okay, folks, get a gun safe. Secure it properly. Do not keep your guns in the oven. Do you have to write this one down? I hope not. There are many important things that do work well in an oven, like food and baked goods and other things, but guns, especially loaded, guns, do not belong in there. I don’t want to test how much heat a Glock can take. You just have a melted mess anyway, at least of the polymer parts. Plus, if it’s loaded, the round is contained in the barrels or cylinders, and they will present a danger if they cook off, as opposed to rounds that are loosely thrown in a fire where they’re not contained. Contrary to what you may have seen in the movie, those actually do not pose any substantial danger. The round has to be in a barrel or chamber for the pressure to actually have effect.

Evan Nappen 50:26
You don’t have to take my word for it. You can read about Hatcher’s famous book. In Hatcher’s notebook, the army and military did experiments on that very thing, ammo in fires, and they made these tests and studies and determined that. But if you put your gun in an oven and it’s loaded and the rounds cook off, you’ve got problems. And of course, you’ll be charged, because that would count as an accidental discharge. Then, of course, you’ll face the Gulag. If the gun rights oppressors here have their way, and even if they don’t, you’ll still face serious problems anyway, even if you’re not held without bail until your trial in the DPRNJ.

Evan Nappen 51:15
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 51:24
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E203_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 202- Was This Another Stephen King Killing Spree? Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 202SUMMARY KEYWORDS

dispensary, new jersey, gun rights, rage, carry, gun, pharmacy, guns, knives, law, firearm, copycat, issued, give, state, pistol, call, lakewood, place, radical ideology

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:16
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, you’ve probably been seeing in the news the latest what they like to call “school shooting”. It’s always amazing how the timing of these things go. You know, we can speculate all day long about why that is, and I’m not going to do that here. But I do want to point out that you can look at the history of school shootings, and you might be surprised to see where the idea kind of originally took root and became a fixture, if you will, in America. For that, you need to only go to Stephen King. That’s right. Stephen King wrote a novel called Rage, which was written under a pseudonym that he used, Richard Bachman, but it is Stephen King. This book was published in 1977 and then it was put into another book of his collected works in 1985 known as the Bachmann Books. And what that novel described was a school shooting, and this novel has been associated with actual school shootings. It’s pretty much documented. Then from the actual school shootings, where you can document his book Rage, are all the copycats that we’re still experiencing to this day. You can look and see that this epidemic, so-called, at least that’s what the media likes to play it as, goes back to Stephen King and the novel Rage.

Evan Nappen 02:21
In this novel, a high school senior has grievances, whatever, and ends up killing a teacher and all kinds of other things happen, even a hostage situation. So, many times in the school shootings, you also end up seeing the hostage issues take place. All this, you know, can find roots here, so much so that even Wiki, for that matter, admits that the plot of Rage vaguely resembles actual high school shootings and incidents of hostage taking. It’s true that King finally said, quit printing it and took it out of print. He took it out because he realized, I guess, the issues that have come from it. You know, he’s anti-gun. He is a gun rights oppressor, you know, and all that. He’s disavowed it and what have you, butut still, it’s out there. It’s out there.

Evan Nappen 03:38
Here’s a little list of some of its impact, by the way. So, this one guy, Jeffrey Lyne Cox, a senior at San Gabriel High School in California took a semi-automatic rifle to school in April of 1988. Just three years after the Bachmann Book anthology got republished. Cox held a humanities class of 60 students hostage, and it went on and on. A friend of Cox said that he was inspired by the novel Rage. Then, in 1989, Dustin Pierce, a senior at Jackson County High School in McGee, Kentucky, armed himself with

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a shotgun and two handguns. He took a history classroom hostage with a nine hour standoff. And guess what the police found among his possessions in his bedroom? You guessed it. A copy of Rage.

Evan Nappen 04:48
Then on September 11, 1991, Ryan Harris went into a math class (in Stevens High School, Rapid City, South Dakota) with a sawed-off shotgun and ordered the teacher to leave. Harris had been inspired by, guess what? Rage. He ordered pizza and cigarettes, which were delivered, and he wanted a million dollars. He fired a total of 10 shots. Then in 1993, Scott Pennington, a student at East Carter High School in Grayson, Kentucky, took a .38 revolver owned by his father and fatally shot his English teacher. He then shot and killed the school’s custodian and held the class hostage. And guess what? He had written an essay on Rage, and he was upset that the teacher gave him a C grade on his essay on Rage. In 1997, Michael Carneal shot eight fellow students, three of them fatally at a prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. And guess what he had in his locker? A copy of Rage.

Evan Nappen 05:55
They even talk about another school shooting where they compared it to Rage. Apparently the shooter, Barry Loukaitis, shocked his classmates said that he said, “This sure beats algebra, doesn’t it?” They said that was a line erroneously reported from Rage. They say that no such line appears, except there is a line in Rage that says, “this sure beats panty raids.” Oh, this sure beats algebra versus this sure beats panty raids, which is an actual line from the book Rage. But no, no , no. Rage wasn’t responsible there. No, not at all. I mean, look at this. Then what do you see from this? You see all the media coverage, all the hype. We get copycat after copycat after copycat. And what happens? Oh, well, the antis never miss a chance to do a blood dance to try to take away our gun rights and oppress our gun rights. They immediately call for the non-sequitur of gun rights oppression, which has nothing to do with it. I mean, they may as well when they call for their gun rights oppression, they talk about, oh, we need to stop “gun violence”, right? It’s always “gun violence”, and we need common sense gun safety laws.

Evan Nappen 07:30
Oh, really? Well, would you be in favor of ending book violence, book violence? Maybe we need common sense book safety laws. Do you think that’s good? I mean that’s the First Amendment. I don’t really want to see the First Amendment and those rights oppressed, but they have no problem when it comes to the Second Amendment and trying to blame the object. Yet here we have what is pretty much a documented history of the mayhem caused by King’s writings. Hey, I guess it’s the society we live in. We need to have free flow of ideas, just like we need to have guns. There are people out there that do bad things. But why does it seem so difficult to blame the person all the time? If you want to go around blaming guns, maybe I want to go around blaming books that can be documented to the inspiration for what we see going on.

Evan Nappen 08:41
Hey, here’s a little follow up on why it’s nice to live in America, my friends. Because you see, we have the Second Amendment that protects our rights. Recently, as you may recall, we discussed on one of the recent shows about the Massachusetts Supreme Court finding that switchblades, what we call automatic knives, are protected arms under the Second Amendment and invalidated Massachusetts

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ban on switchblades. Well, that is very good for us, and we’ve made great headway in terms of fighting knife laws.

Evan Nappen 09:24
However, just recently, on August 23, 2024, in Germany, guess what? There was a mass knife stabbing. In this mass knife stabbing, three people were stabbed to death and eight others wounded, ironically, at a festival in Solingen, Germany. Now, what’s ironic about it, if you know knives, Solingen is actually one of the capitals. One of the top, highly regarded places for making fine steel and cutlery. In a report from the Associated Press, they quoted saying, “federal prosecutors said that [the suspect] shared the radical ideology of the Islamic State extremist group — and was acting on those beliefs when he stabbed his victims repeatedly from behind in the head and upper body.” It’s also reported, by the way, that this person, under German law, shouldn’t even have been in the country. Apparently this news source, Deutsche Welle, said, “Authorities had planned to deport this suspected attacker to Bulgaria last year, but this did not take place because the man had not been seen at his refugee accommodation when officials tried to do so.” (https://www.nraila.org/articles/20240903/never-enough- german-government-pushes-knife-control-in-wake-of-terror-attack)

Evan Nappen 10:59
So, here you have this radical ideology and someone who shouldn’t be in the country, but what does Germany’s Social Democratic Party Chancellor, Olaf Scholz, say? He said the Government would be pursuing new knife controls. Of course, we have got to blame the knives. Well, you know, can’t blame guns there. They weren’t used. So, we’ve got to blame knives. It’s obviously the knife’s fault. It’s not this radical ideology and someone who shouldn’t be in the country being there. It’s knives. So, the Chancellor said, we’re now going to tighten up weapons regulations, in particular with the regard to the use of knives. And what are the knife laws that they’re going to do now? What are they doing? Well, according to the Deutsche Welle publication, the Interior Minister, Nancy Faeser, called for the law to be changed so that only blades of six centimeters, which in inches is 2.36 inches, would be allowed to be carried in public, rather than the current 12 centimeters, which is under five inches. An exception would be made for household knives in their original packaging. How nice, how nice. And switchblades would be banned all together. Like that had anything to do with that incident. But there they go. Let’s find some inanimate object to blame, to deflect. That’s Germany doing that.

Evan Nappen 12:50
This is what we have to be vigilant about here in America. Thankfully, the Second Amendment and our knife liberty movement is being successful because the focus at the moment, by the Second Amendment rights oppressors, is on guns. And so, this is a great opportunity, and we’re making tremendous headway. Next, of course, is removal of the FSA, the Federal Switchblade Act so we’d have no national life knife law whatsoever. There’s only a handful of states that even ban automatic knives, very few, and they’re commonly owned, as the Massachusetts Supreme Court noted. A lot of that common ownership is because of the efforts we’ve made in getting rid of knife laws. But remember, what happens there in Europe can happen here. The UK’s pulled this same stunt. You know, we just got to give the people something. So, what do we give them? Since we can’t address the real issues. Oh, a knife ban. Knife ban. How nice. It’s unbelievable.

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Evan Nappen 14:10
We constantly are struggling with these non sequitur type anti-rights oppression, and we’re constantly fighting. One of the best ways to fight it is with knowledge. When it comes to knowledge, especially in the DPRNJ, which is the Democratic People’s Republic of New Jersey, you need to make sure that you belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the premier gun rights advocate group in New Jersey. They’re an umbrella organization of the gun clubs, but there are individual memberships. You need to be a member. It’s very reasonable to join. By being a member, you will get the email updates and a fantastic, the best, printed newsletter on gun rights in New Jersey. You will be helping to fight in the courts as they fight and litigate on the most pressing issues of gun rights oppression in New Jersey. They are the group. Make sure you belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. anjrpc.org. Join today and be part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 15:38
The other important thing for knowledge is getting my book, which I will shamelessly promote. It’s called New Jersey Gun Law, and it is the Bible of Jersey gun law. I know that many of my listeners have copies, and they are smart enough to never lend them, because you’ll never get it back if you do. This book is over 500 pages. It’s 120 topics, and it’s all question and answer. It will be your roadmap to understanding New Jersey’s insane matrix of gun rights oppression and traps that are laid for the unsuspecting so that you don’t become the next GOFU. When you get the book, which you can get at my website, EvanNappen.com, when you go there and get the book, make sure you scan the front cover, that QR code, and get in my free subscriber database, which goes nowhere. It stays private. I don’t sell it. I don’t release it. But you will get updates to keep the book current, and you’ll have free, free access to the archives for any past updates and information. The updates themselves are free. You can’t beat it. It’s the indispensable tool for a New Jersey gun owner.

Evan Nappen 16:57
In addition to knowledge and protecting our rights, you need to have a place to shoot. So, let me give you my highest recommendation, which is WeShoot, which is an indoor range in Lakewood, New Jersey. You can go to their website, which is weshootusa.com. They have beautiful photography. You will enjoy their website, and you will see they offer everything you need. They are a state of the art place to shoot, which is a great resource. They’re conveniently located in Lakewood, New Jersey, right off the Parkway. They offer courses and training. It’s where I got my CCARE certificate to get my carry. It’s where my son got his, my brother got his, and on and on. You can get yours there, too. They have a great shop. They sell all the accouterments and equipment that you would want to enjoy the world of shooting and be able to defend yourself and your loved ones. Check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com. The premier range is right in Central Jersey in Lakewood.

Evan Nappen 18:24
So, I was thinking about a little idea that I had, and I want to put it out the first time on Gun Lawyer. We are coming up to the election, and as if I need to say this, but I’m going to say it, you better be registered to vote and make sure you vote. Our future more than ever, and not just on guns, folks, but on every other aspect of our life, our country, our sovereignty, our wealth, our liberties. Everything is at stake in this election, and you need to vote. And to vote, you need to be registered. I believe you have until October 15 to register in New Jersey. (https://nj.gov/state/elections/voter-registration.shtml) So,

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time is time is a ticking. If you’re not registered to vote, make sure you register, and then make your vote. Now, You know, President Trump actually has a shot at winning New Jersey. If those that love liberty come out and vote, he will win New Jersey. Make sure you’re registered.

Evan Nappen 19:39
Now, one of the things that struck me is that we have this law that was put in, a Federal law, known as the National Voter Registration Act of 1993. (https://www.justice.gov/crt/national-voter-registration-act- 1993-nvra) It was signed by good old Bill Clinton. It’s also known as the motor voter act or the motor voter law. The NVRA or motor voter law attempts to simplify voter registration by having folks who apply for or renew a driver’s license or if they apply for public assistance, register to vote. So, people getting public assistance, people getting driver’s license, to be registered to vote. The law requires states to register applicants and to use a Federal voter registration form and then prohibits states from removing registered voters unless the voter rolls contain certain criteria. So, here we have this motor voter act that, in effect, is a voter registration drive. Literally, drive through voter registration via driver’s licenses and public assistance.

Evan Nappen 21:10
Well, I have a law that I’m proposing.. Now, I’m not a legislator, but I hope a legislator picks up on this. As the current law is called the “Motor Voter Act”, ours should be called the “Reloader Voter Act”. Under the “Reloader Voter Act”, when you apply for a firearm permit or license, you are registered to vote in the same way as when you apply for a driver’s license. Imagine that. When you go to purchase a firearm, there’s that federal gun form that you have got to go through. Well, guess what? We’re also going to do voter registration of everybody who buys a gun or gets a license for a gun. Now that is something that I think Republicans could get behind – the Reloader Voter Act. I haven’t got the details. I don’t write legislation. I think this is an idea worth considering, and I bet you do, too.

Evan Nappen 22:27
So, we get my favorite thing, which is the Ask Evan letters. I’ve got some really good letters. And of course, we’re not going to forget the GOFU. This is from Kenneth. Kenneth writes, regarding dispensary. You made a comment on a recent podcast that a pharmacy was a sensitive area based on the fact that the Carry Killer Law includes “dispensary” in the definition. The term “pharmacy” is nowhere to be found in 4769. In addition, NJAC 13:39, which regulates pharmacists, pharmacies and the dispensing of prescription drugs, never uses the term “dispensary”. The only law or regulation utilizing the term is in relation to cannabis. My final argument that carry would not be banned is that a “health care facility” is defined in 44:5-2a. as a facility for “diagnosis or treatment of human disease, pain, injury, deformity or physical condition”. A pharmacy does not diagnose or treat per those relevant definitions. Based on all this, I’m curious how you came to your conclusion. I hope you address it in an upcoming podcast.

Evan Nappen 24:00
Kenneth, I’m happy to address it, and I’m glad that you raise it. I’m glad that you’re thinking about these things. It is very good and appreciated. So, where is this coming from? And why would I say this? I’ll tell you why. Because we have to go to the Carry Killer bill, and that is what we just mentioned as a bill number, but it’s been passed. So, it actually has a law number, a statutory citation, and it’s under N.J.S.

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2C:58-4.6.58:4.6. In that statute, we find the “sensitive places”, the laundry list of places that the Government in New Jersey enacted in their hissy fit after the passage of Bruen to try to make carry permits that have to be issued useless. And, of course, this is one of the key areas that the state Association, ANJRPC, is fighting. They have made great progress in that fight, and it’s ongoing.

Evan Nappen 25:06
So, where does the “no pharmacy” idea come from? Well, you will find that under Number 21. Now let me read you the sensitive place under 21. It includes all the following: a “health care facility, including but not limited to a general hospital, special hospital, psychiatric hospital, public health center, diagnostic center, treatment center, rehabilitation center, extended care facility, skilled nursing home, nursing home. I can’t believe they put both. I guess that’s the unskilled nursing home or something, but whatever. Intermediate care facility, tuberculosis hospital, chronic disease hospital, maternity hospital, outpatient clinic, dispensary, assisted living center, home health care agency, residential treatment facility, residential health care facility, medical office or ambulatory care facility.”

Evan Nappen 26:06
So, there in the healthcare facility is this incredible list of everything they could possibly come up with to jam it to us. And there’s that word “dispensary”. Now it is true that the gun law, that gun law, does not define dispensary. That’s absolutely true. It doesn’t say it. It’s also true that they didn’t use the word “pharmacy” there. They use the word “dispensary”. So, Kenneth raises a question about it. Since they didn’t use “pharmacy”, since the definition isn’t really anywhere even in the Administrative Code which regulates pharmacy, and since we only see this reference to “dispensary” found in legalized marijuana, why would this apply at all to the pharmacy part of CVS, let’s say, or Rite Aid? I’ll tell you why. The reason is because the word “dispensary” is not defined very clearly. And because there’s no statutory definition of what the boundaries are or are not for “dispensary”, I want every one of my listeners to be safe and not become the test case.

Evan Nappen 27:49
Unless you want to be the test case. You know, call me after you get charged with the felony level offense and your entire future and gun rights and freedom and liberty are at stake. Absolutely, I’ll be happy to defend you. As a matter of fact, some of the things here that that Kenneth raises, I would happily argue in defending you, but I’ll tell you what the state’s going to do. This is where you have to know what the state’s going to do. The state’s going to say, well, Your Honor, dispensary is undefined. It’s not defined. So, we’ve got to go with what the plain meaning is and what the legislative intent was behind it. They will go to dictionaries, my friend. They will go to dictionaries. What is a dispensary? Since the court is going to have to determine what it means, what does that mean to a citizen? And what would that understanding be, since it isn’t statutorily addressed with specificity?

Evan Nappen 28:58
Well, if we go to Merriam Webster Dictionary, you’ll see that a dispensary is a noun, and it’s “a place where medicine or medical or dental treatment is dispensed.” Ah, medicine is dispensed. Then, if we go to the Cambridge dictionary, it says that a dispensary is “a place where medicines are prepared and given out, often in a hospital.” Gee, does the pharmacy at CVS or Rite Aid prepare and give out medicine there? Under Merriam Webster’s, is that a place where medicine might be dispensed? Let’s

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not stop there. Let’s go to dictionary.com and how does dictionary.com define dispensary? “A place where something is dispensed, especially medicines.” Well, gee, three different dictionaries seem to all say that what you and I would regard as the pharmacy part of CVS and Rite Aid in your local drugstore meets the definition commonly understood as to what a “dispensary” is. So, that Kenneth, my friend, is why you must not get jammed up on a sensitive place violation by pushing that issue, unless you want to, but I don’t think you do. I can tell you what we’re going to be hit with. I just read it and that’s where the fight will fall. So, be careful. Be very careful.

Evan Nappen 30:58
Now I have a question from Rob. Rob says, regarding a PTC question. Hi, Evan. Please settle a debate amongst my friends. We all have our PTC and our question is about giving law enforcement a list of firearms we intend to carry. Were we supposed to turn in an S.P. 182a.? Three of us were not asked for it and were issued our PTC. One was required to submit it. He was also the last one to get his PTC. We all went through the NJ State Police. Thanks for your input. You have a great show. P.S., what kind of cigars do you like as we’re all smokers, too.

Evan Nappen 31:41
Oh, I’d love to deal with that cigar question, but I’ll save that. Let’s talk about the list. So, when you apply for your carry, they ask on the application itself for what gun you want to carry. Now, the training of CCARE that we got through, when we got it all changed. We with the association right fighting for this, tests core competency, and it’s not gun specific. But in the old days, prior to the change, prior to Bruen, prior to the Carry Killer law, the training was gun specific, and the judges went, you know, wild on that and mandated specific guns, and only this gun. All that’s gone. So, as long as you can demonstrate, and have demonstrated with CCARE that you have core competency, then the guns you can carry are simply those that you either have put on the actual carry permit application that you filled out, or if you wish to add guns, even after your carry permit has been issued, you can do the S.P.182a. and simply submit the form. There’s no approval of guns. It’s just giving the State notice of the guns that you may wish to carry.

Evan Nappen 33:10
Now, the only downside is it does create kind of a de facto registration of your guns, because you’re submitting a list with serial numbers of guns. But if your guns are already Jersey papered with a pistol purchase form, handgun purchase form, etc, then they’re already “registered”. So, it doesn’t really matter. You’re just putting them on the list of the guns you want to carry, and your training does not go to that. Now, I’ve actually heard recently that somebody submitted a list, believe it or not, of a number of guns, and they put on the list a .22 long rifle firing pistol or handgun. I don’t know the specific model for a gun they may wish to carry, and the issuing authority, my understanding, is the issuing authority said you cannot use a .22 for self-defense. Well, folks, that is absolute, well, I think the legal term is Bullshit. In New Jersey, an air pistol is a handgun and a firearm. If you want to carry a BB pistol for self- defense, you can do it. No less a .22. A .22 can be a fine gun. No problem for self-defense.

Evan Nappen 34:38
Now look, I understand. Most folks would advise you nothing smaller than a .38, whether it’s a .380 or .38 cal., and I know all that. But here’s the point. A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44

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Magnum. If the .22 is what you shoot accurately and competently, if you can defend yourself with it and put more than one shot where you need to put it, you’re good to go. There is no prohibitor on your caliber of choice. Since you can carry two guns in New Jersey, many folks might want to carry a small .22 as a backup, even though it’s not their primary handgun. All that’s fine, if that’s what you wish to do. So, the list is your list. You put on there the guns you want to carry. But that’s it. It’s not a requirement, unless there are guns you wish to carry that were not put on your initial or renewal of your carry permit application itself. And that’s how it works. Now, if some local town is misunderstanding that and requiring the S.P.182a., well, that’s really not correct. But even if they do, you have to pick your battles, of course. So, if they want to list on that too, and you’re getting your carry permit, oh, well, who cares, really? I mean, okay, if you want to make a point about it, fine. The real problem is if they want to examine your guns that you’re putting on it and then denying you your choice of a firearm. That’s different. Because you have a right to carry whatever. If you want to carry a Smith and Wesson 500 magnum or if you want to carry a Daisy BB pistol, it’s your choice. That’s where the freedom is on that.

Evan Nappen 36:35
So, our favorite little segment here. What is the GOFU? That’s the Gun Owner Fuck Up, and that is where you get to learn about an expensive lesson for free. So, you get it on the cheap. Today’s GOFU is really a wraparound to the first story about that school shooting. You know, the Stephen King copycat-inspired killing sprees. Maybe they should call it that instead of school shootings. Maybe it would get more to the history. At least the history of it could be revealed every time these things happen. But, hey, the GOFU though is what has happened now. Not just the atrocity of the crime committed by this 14 year old. Notice that I don’t call it a tragedy. It’s not a tragedy. It’s an atrocity. It’s a crime that was committed by a 14 year old. But what happened now, the father of the 14 year old has now been charged with Murder and a host of other felony charges because he gave the firearm, the modern sporting rifle, to his son as a gift. They’re bringing criminal charges, including four counts of Involuntary Manslaughter and two counts of Second Degree Murder and eight counts of Cruelty to Children. The father is getting jammed up, too.

Evan Nappen 38:21
Now this GOFU is a GOFU because, especially if you’re in New Jersey, New Jersey has a narrow exemption when it comes to allowing minors, or even your children, to access firearms. They can access firearms as long as they are under your direct supervision, folks, direct supervision. You cannot and should not even give your kid a BB gun, because that’s a firearm in New Jersey. If you give your child any gun, your son or daughter any gun, it is a crime. You cannot give them that gun. Okay? They can use the gun under your direct supervision, but not possess it in their room, hang it on their wall, or use it whenever they feel like it. No less, any other firearm, okay?

Evan Nappen 39:24
If you as a parent don’t understand that and you allow access to any gun that is not within that exemption in New Jersey, I can well see if that son or daughter causes a problem of any sort, it doesn’t have to be, you know, a Stephen King type killing spree, copycat deal, but anything, you can be brought in over those acts. This is now trending, because they did it for and they went after the parents on that other shooting. Going after the parents is the new approach. So, as parents, particularly in New

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Jersey, that potential liability is really there, be careful. Do not allow access to your firearms by minors unless they’re under your direct supervision at all times.

Evan Nappen 40:32
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 40:40
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo music New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E202_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 201-Pigs With Wings Spotted In Massachusetts Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 201SUMMARY KEYWORDS

knives, massachusetts, knife, law, neumann, new jersey, gun, court, carry, switchblade, pocket knife, great, second amendment rights, rights, compensator, state, citing, establishment, guns, ban

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:17
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome Gun Lawyer. So, very recently, I received reports of pigs with wings in Massachusetts. Now, why is that? Well, that is because the Massachusetts Supreme Court struck down the switchblade knife ban in Massachusetts, what we like to call taxachusetts, as unconstitutional under the Second Amendment. This is just great news. First of all, it’s Massachusetts. I mean that alone doing that. Second, it is really showing the power of the trifecta, of course, Heller, McDonald, and Bruen and its impact. (District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)) (McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 742 (2010)) (New York State Rifle & Pistol Ass’n. v. Bruen, 142 S.Ct. 2III (2022)) It lays the groundwork, of course, in Massachusetts for even further liberty to be restored. It’s really exciting to see this happen. I want to go into a little bit of depth about it, because it also applies in being instructive to other jurisdictions, and I think it demonstrates why bringing the case in New Jersey to get rid of New Jersey’s switchblade ban would be an excellent thing to do. It is something where, if we can get, we being the pro-rights folks, can get a unanimous Supreme Court decision in Massachusetts to legalize switchblades, I think that says a lot of things can change that have been burdening our Second Amendment rights for a long time.

Evan Nappen 02:34
Remember, the Second Amendment is not the right to keep and bear guns. It’s the right to keep and bear arms, and knives are arms. The test of the constitutionality for a law that deals with a prohibition on arms has been pronounced under the Bruen decision, and its impact is precisely what we’re seeing here. So, the name of the case is Canjura. (Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. David E. Canjura, SJC-13432) What really makes it great as a challenge here in this Massachusetts case is this was an actual guy, David Canjura, who was arrested and charged with switchblade possession in 2020. Okay, so this is what we call an actual case in controversy. This is an actual criminal defendant. This isn’t a civil action where you bring a declaratory judgment, and you ask the court to rule on constitutionality. This is a guy who was busted in Boston for possessing a switchblade and charged under that Massachusetts law, who said, hey, you’re violating my Second Amendment rights with this charge.

Evan Nappen 04:09
He was, believe it or not, represented by the Public Defender, and they did a really good job. It was the Committee for Public Counsel Services, Public Defender Division, which were his attorneys. Now he

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was joined in the challenge in Massachusetts by other interested parties, of course, that filed briefs including Knife Rights, but I want to give credit to the Public Defender for utilizing the Second Amendment rights and using it to fight this type of criminal charge. We need all the Public Defenders to use the Second Amendment in defense of weapons charges. You can see what the results will be. In this case, the fellow here had this knife. Apparently, the knife he had was an orange firearm-shaped knife with a spring-assisted blade. It must have been some interesting, imported knife, most likely, that was a switchblade, but we would call it an automatic knife that happened to be in this shape. The shape of a gun didn’t mean a thing. It’s a switchblade knife which was banned in Mass. and no longer is.

Evan Nappen 05:55
So, it was a 24-page decision, and it goes through the Bruen history. Now Bruen, when you challenge it, you have to show what is called text, history and tradition. The Government has the burden of proving that these types of laws prohibiting knives, in this case switchblades, basically existed at the time of the Second Amendment. They have to demonstrate it, and the burden is on them to demonstrate it. The other thing that has to be shown is whether the weapon is not what they’re calling dangerous and unusual. So, something that must be in common use. The Court has to get those issues wrestled with in order to test the constitutionality and that’s what the Court did. What makes it really interesting, particularly, is in the opinion the Court does, and this is how it has to work by the way, explore the history of switchblades and were they even considered arms? Are they arms? Were switchblades even coming under the definition of arms in the right to keep and bear arms?

Evan Nappen 07:25
So, in the decision, one of the things that the court cites, and I’ll read you exactly word for word what it says in the opinion. It says the first known folding knives have been found in Roman sites dating back to the first century. Then it says, “See G. Neumann, Swords and Blades of the American Revolution (1973)”. Now let me tell you right here. George Neumann was a personal friend of mine, and I miss George Neumann. He was a wealth of knowledge. He was the expert in the United States on not just swords and blades of the American Revolution, but all weapons and accouterments. Really all the items of the American Revolution and Revolutionary War, soldiers and such. He was a member of the Forks of the Delaware Arms Collectors, and he was there for years and years. I’ve known him since I was 17, basically, going to that show. George actually helped me with various things, personally. Rev War items. He helped identify a Revolutionary War musket that I have. George was just a great guy, and he was so influential. His book was utilized, and is being utilized here, in demonstrating the history to regain our Second Amendment liberties that have been stolen from us. So, his impact was not only to what he and I and others love, the history of weapons and the collecting of the various weapons, but also his impact was even to the law. He is even cited in the Heller decision as well on his works as to what were the weapons of the American Revolution.

Evan Nappen 09:37
The Court of Massachusetts cites the Heller decision, citing George Neumann, and they say further, “Knives and daggers were personal necessities to the early American.” Then the Court even goes on. “Of the many varieties of knives, none has been a more constant and enduring companion to man than the pocketknife.” They’re citing Delgado here. (State of Oregon v. Delgado, 298 OR. 395 (1984)). Now, Delgado was the Oregon Supreme Court case back in 1984, folks, on switchblades. In 1984, well

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before Heller was even a dream in somebody’s head. The Oregon Supreme Court in effect legalized switchblades in a beautifully written Second Amendment decision by the Oregon Supreme Court. And that’s why you saw the beginnings of the American modern automatic knife manufacturing taking place in Oregon, like Benchmade and others, because the knife law there was constitutionally protected and identified. Here, Delgado is being relied upon by the Massachusetts Supreme Court.

Evan Nappen 10:58
As it was, as well, with Neumann in another case called Kessler (State of Oregon vs. Randy Kessler) that came out of Oregon by the Heller court, which was, of course, the landmark decision in the U.S. Supreme Court on our Second Amendment rights by the late great Justice Scalia. The Massachusetts Court goes further quoting, and this is all intertwined with Neumann and Delgado. “As America developed and its frontiers moved inland, the custom of wearing belt knives waned in coastal areas. The result was a great increase in folding knives to the point where they became almost universal accessories.” Citing Neumann. “Contemporary sources referred to this category of knives by a variety of names, including ‘pocketknives,’ ‘jackknives,’ ‘clasp knives,’ ‘spring knives,’ and ‘folding knives.'” Again, citing Neumann. “During the time of the Revolutionary War, folding knives were so popular that ‘[o]rders from New York, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts actually listed them as required accessories.” Again, citing George Neumann. “Long- bladed folding jackknives were commonly used for fighting, although some were also used for farm work. Smaller pocketknives were very popular for hunting, fighting and as tools (depicting “Three different small knives that were commonly used between 1750 and 1850). In addition to the pocketknife and jackknife, folding daggers also became more common in the nineteenth century and were particularly popular in the United States.”

Evan Nappen 12:54
So, here we see the Court recognizing in detail the historical significance of knives. Even to think that the Court is finally honestly looking at our American history when it comes to our proud tradition with knives, is extremely encouraging, and here you see its impact. The Court makes it clear that switchblades are arms, why they are arms, and why they fall under this. Again, they talk about, for example, Neumann depicting an English pocketknife, circa 1750 to 1840, featuring a steel base spring that helps to lock the blade in an open position. Then they talk about depicting a pocketknife with an outside steel spring mechanism, and it’s held by a bottom pin. Then a French-Spanish pocketknife with a spring opening mechanism, what we would call a switchblade today. All these things go back to the history, and that history is what secures our rights in these challenges. So, history is incredibly important when it comes to our Second Amendment rights. That’s why history, text and tradition is the test, and that’s what the courts must consider. And here the Massachusetts Supreme Court did exactly that.

Evan Nappen 14:28
Now, additionally, the Court had to find that these were not only arms and bearable arms, but also that they were in common use. Common use is yet another demonstration that the Court must, in effect, be provided with and then make a determination. The Court on seeing this, saw that, of course, it is tremendously in common use. I want to tell you that one of the reasons that it is in common use has to do with the modern knife liberty movement. I’m proud to say that the modern knife liberty movement started essentially in 2010. I’m going to tell you right now, and I’m not just trying to toot my own horn

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here, folks, but I’m proud of it. I helped spearhead the knife liberty movement in 2010, working closely with Knife Rights, and we were able to get New Hampshire’s ban on switchblade, dagger, Dirk and stilettos repealed in 2010. That was the first modern repeal of a knife law in America in 2010. The story is a fascinating story about how we succeeded in doing that, and you can read that whole story online for free if you go to the website, knifelawonline.com, knifelawonline.com. You can read the history of New Hampshire’s knife rights movement, and you’ll find the article that I wrote in 2013. I got permission from Blade Magazine, the company to reprint it. You can read the article that explained how we were able to convince the legislature in New Hampshire, which by the way, was all Democrat. A Democrat House, Democrat Senate, and Democrat Governor. When we repealed the ban on switchblades, dagger, Dirk and stiletto in New Hampshire, there was not a single vote against it.

Evan Nappen 17:10
That miracle in New Hampshire was then capitalized on brilliantly by Knife Rights and their success has been astounding. Knife Rights has put forward 49 bills repealing knife bans in 31 states. Because of all the repeals that have taken place since 2010, there are only a small handful of states that even ban switchblades anymore. I think the number is something like six or eight states. That’s it. The majority of the country now no longer has a switchblade knife ban, and you can add Massachusetts to that list. These knives are in common use now throughout America because of the knife liberty movement, and it is a factor, very important factor, in seeing the laws overturned. As we speak now, Knife Rights is fighting a federal court action to finally get rid of the Federal Switchblade Act, which restricts a certain degree in the interstate commerce in these. You know, it was passed in the ’50s. It’s archaic, and it needs to go. Why should we have this national law when so few states even have any prohibitions whatsoever? They’re falling like timber over the Second Amendment challenges. So, it’s very exciting, and it’s just great to see, especially in a state like Massachusetts, where the law against possession and carry of automatic knives has been found unconstitutional.

Evan Nappen 19:23
Now, if you ask yourself, what about New Jersey? Well, New Jersey’s knife laws are still ripe for challenge. If you want to understand New Jersey knife laws, I extensively explain them in my book. So, I will now shamelessly plug my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law. You can get your copy at EvanNappen.com. It’s over 50 pages with 120 topics, all Question and Answer explained, and that includes knife laws in Jersey. What knives can you carry? What is the law on knives? Are there blade length restrictions, etc. I tell you all about it and what you need to know. By understanding our current law, you also understand better when the challenge is made, and we will see it, I’m sure. We are daily seeing challenges throughout America to these infringements that have been on our rights for so long. If you get a copy of my book, and I hope you all have a copy, make sure you scan the front cover, the QR code. Get to my private subscriber base, and you’ll be able to access the archives for all the updates. I’ll be sending you email alerts of any new developments in law. So, get your copy of New Jersey Gun Law today at EvanNappen.com.

Evan Nappen 20:51
I also want to mention, of course, our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, very convenient, right off the Parkway. They are a great resource, a great place to shoot, and that is where I personally got my CCARE certification. So did my brother, my son and so many

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others. Everybody loves WeShoot for a good reason. It is a just a great range with great people. They will treat you like family. Anything you need in terms of your training, in terms of equipment, they have it. They are first rate, first rate. Check out WeShoot. You can go to their website at weshootusa.com. They have really excellent photography. I mean, they really do. They pride themselves on that. Check out their website. Go down to WeShoot, mention my name and watch what happens. No joke, man. My name has like some currency down there, I guess. But you’ll see. So, WeShoot is the range for you in Lakewood, New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 22:11
Of course, I want to mention our good friends at the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. You see they are our state gun rights, premier gun rights, protector. They are currently in the courts fighting the Carry Killer bill, the so-called assault firearm law, and the large capacitor magazine law. The battle is ongoing, as we speak, and they are making great progress. I’m confident we’ll see them take other steps, hopefully, toward getting rid of New Jersey’s knife laws. The Association is dynamic. They’re there in Trenton. They’re in the fight. They’re also in the legislature with a full time paid lobbyist, keeping an eye on those scoundrels down there, letting us know about the shenanigans, so that you can be informed, and you can let your voice be heard. You’ll get a great newsletter and email alerts when you’re a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Just go to anjrpc.org and join today. Be part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 23:25
So, I’ve gotten some great questions. I love the questions from listeners, and I want to share with you these questions today. This is from David, and it says, regarding no gun signs. Hello, Evan. First, I’d like to thank you for your many years of advocacy and hard work to preserve our 2A rights. I’m a proud owner of your book, and I try to attend your live seminars when possible. Well, thanks, Dave. My question is this. I have a friend who owns a liquor establishment in New Jersey. As a concealed carry licensee in New Jersey, I’m well aware of prohibition of carry in these establishments. My friend took it upon himself to post a NO GUNS SIGN in his establishment. Is he obligated to do this? He’s not a fan of guns, so I took this as an anti 2A stance. He’s already received negative feedback from gun owners. If he is indeed obligated by law to post this, then perhaps I’m being too sensitive. If he’s not obligated to do this, may I add his establishment to a long list of establishments I don’t patronize. Thank you for much for your advice.

Evan Nappen 24:34
Okay, here’s the deal. He’s not obligated to do this. He’s not obligated at all. Now, of course, the gun rights oppressors in the New Jersey Government want people to put up those signs, but it’s not required by law at all. Now, when you say he has a liquor establishment, let’s be clear. If liquor is not consumed there, if it is simply a liquor store, then you’re allowed to carry in a liquor store that is open to the public. You’re allowed to do that. Now, if it is a bar or restaurant serving alcohol, then you cannot. I don’t know what type of establishment he has. But even if it is a sensitive place where alcohol is consumed and sold for consumption, etc, there’s no need for him to put up a sign that you’re not allowed to carry there. It’s currently a sensitive place which is being fought, by the way, by the Association in Federal court as we speak. But no sign is required. So, that sign, regardless of whether it’s a prohibited place or not, is voluntary on his part, and all he’s doing is discouraging customers.

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Because if you are a law-abiding gun carrier, then you know, if it’s an establishment involving liquor that is a sensitive place, you know not to go in there with your gun. You don’t need a freaking sign. All the sign says is, express a gun rights oppression attitude, and that’s something that is not helpful. So, maybe in a nice way, you want to tell him. Hey, look, unless you think a sign is actually going to make you safer, which is laughable, it actually makes you more dangerous, because they know, hey, there’s no guns. That’s a good place to hit. Don’t have to worry about any problems from people defending themselves. It’s a victim zone. It’s a nice victim zone, right? So, maybe he needs to understand that concept. But there’s no sign, no signs. So, Dave, I hope you can get that situation resolved, but that’s the status of signs.

Evan Nappen 27:09
This one is from John. John says, Evan, I absolutely love your podcast and feel like I know 99% more than anyone else because of it. That’s right, because the person you don’t know more about is me. I’m just kidding. Okay, but thanks, John. I have two questions John asks. I know we have a duty to disclose when being pulled over while being a permit to carry a handgun holder, but if we are stopped by an officer walking down the street, do we have a duty to disclose? The answer is yes. Yes, it’s not just in a motor vehicle, but even stopped in the street. You have a duty to disclose. Then question two, I recently received a renewal of my permit to carry handgun. They are now digital. Do I need to carry a physical permit, or is the digital stored on my phone sufficient? I would tell you that has not been decided by a court, but I would strongly recommend that you have a physical copy. If for no other reason, you can hand the physical copy to the officer instead of giving them your phone. We don’t need your phone in the hands of law enforcement with them scrolling all your love letters and emails and all that kind of stuff, right? So, have a physical copy. Print it up and carry it with you. And that’s really the best idea. If you want to have it on your phone as a backup, I mean, whatever. But I would strongly suggest a physical copy. Thanks, John.

Evan Nappen 28:46
Now this is from Vinnie. Vinnie wants to know if the form for the guns that you’re going to carry, S.P. 182a, is required. (https://nj.gov/njsp/firearms/forms.shtml) Just renewed my PTC, and I no longer have a judge issued permit. Oh, thank god, you no longer have a judge-issued permit. What a mess those were. That permit restricted my carry to guns I qualified with. I’m sorry if you went over this. As a loyal listener, I don’t remember hearing about it. You know what? I don’t mind repeating it. It’s important.

Evan Nappen 29:24
Once the new system got in place and finally, judges were removed from the process. Remember, the judges were the ones taking away our rights, not protecting our rights. They were the ones creating all these restrictions and extra orders on your permit, you know, you can only have it when the moon is full and such. You know, bizarre stuff. So, here’s the deal. That’s gone, and there’s no more gun specific restriction. As long as you passed CCARE which tested your core competency, you can carry any handgun that you’ve listed. So, you can list the guns on that form or when you apply for your PTC, it asks what guns you intend to carry. You can put it there as well. There is no individual certification by gun anymore, the way the judges used to bust our balls over that. No longer. Whatever gun you qualify with, that’s okay. It tested your core competency. You could even pass CCARE with an air pistol,

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because that is technically a handgun and a firearm in New Jersey, and as long as you pass the requirements with an air pistol, you could carry a Smith and Wesson 500 Magnum if you wanted to. It’s not gun specific. It’s core competency. Just list the guns on either the form S.P. 182a or when you do your application. Okay, thanks, Vinnie.

Evan Nappen 31:03
I have a question here from Alex. Alex is big fan of the podcast. Thank you for all you do for the 2A community. Well, you’re welcome. He has a question about AR builds. I was looking to get a Surefire Muzzle Break so that I could eventually put on a Warden Blast Regulator. My concern is whether or not a muzzle break is legal in New Jersey. Even though it can be pinned and welded, it’s still able to accept a threaded on device, like a Warden, or even the Surefire suppressor.

Evan Nappen 31:39
So, Alex, here’s where you’re getting into some uncharted, dangerous territory. You see, the whole deal with the threaded barrel on an AR is that it’s one of the offending features under the 1996 Attorney General Guidelines. So, you can’t have a threaded barrel, and you can’t have a flash suppressor. You can have a muzzle break, but not a threaded barrel. Therefore, if you have what is a bona fide muzzle break and it’s on a threaded barrel but it’s pinned and welded so the threads can no longer be utilized, then you no longer have a threaded barrel, because it’s welded or pinned in such a way it can’t be utilized. And you do not have a flash suppressor. You have a muzzle break or compensator, which is different. So, if you’re going down that road, if you have a muzzle device, you want to get the documentation that your muzzle device is not a flash hider or flash suppressor. Okay?

Evan Nappen 32:53
You’re allowed to have a compensator. You’re allowed to have a break, and you want the documentation, because I’ve had to have those fights defending law-abiding criminals in New Jersey over that insanity. So, protect yourself by making sure you have the documentation that your compensator is a compensator. I’ll tell you right now, folks. The State confuses them. They can’t even tell the difference between a compensator and a silencer. I’ve had them called compensators silencers even when the compensator actually made the gun louder. Believe me, you want to have your documentation. That way I could present it to the prosecutor and make it clear that you were in compliance. They don’t even understand it,, but we can prove to them that it’s not one of those prohibited devices. And so, the threading, unfortunately, is a separate offending feature. So, if you put something on there that makes it part of the barrel, because you welded it, but it still has threading.

Evan Nappen 34:02
Now, the State could try to argue that although the compensator or the other device is okay because it’s not a flash suppressor, they might argue that you still have a threaded barrel, which is an offending feature. If you have an AR with a pistol grip and you have that second offending feature, you’re now looking at possession of an assault firearm. So, you have to be very careful. If you are going to have a muzzle device, document that it’s not a prohibited device. Make sure your barrels on your ARs are not threaded. If it was at one time, make sure that whatever the device is permanently affixed, so that there is no more threading that’s able to be used. And that’s how you have to protect yourself in the DPR NJ. That’s the Democratic People’s Republic of New Jersey.

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Evan Nappen 35:01
Now let’s get to the favorite section, the favorite segment of Gun Lawyer. And that, of course, is the GOFU. What’s the GOFU? What’s the Gun Owner Fuck Up? Why do we talk about GOFUs? Because these are expensive lessons that you get to learn for free. This week’s GOFU. Well, here’s the bottom line, folks. When you’re carrying concealed, you want to make sure your gun stays concealed. It has to be concealed. If it’s not concealed, then the State can claim you are open carrying, and that’s a crime in New Jersey under the so-called safe carry requirements. So, beware. In this case, an individual was riding a motorcycle, and when you ride a motorcycle, there is wind, as any motorcyclist will tell you. The wind from riding the bike blew the clothing, the jacket, the shirt, whatever it was, so that the gun got exposed. This caused law enforcement involvement and caused problems, problems you’d rather not have. So, be very, very careful. Now, you know, I can defend this. There are provisions in the law that talk about a brief showing of the gun in movement and such. But you don’t want to have to rely on that, folks. You want to make sure your concealed carry gun stays concealed. If you’re going to be in an environment where it might have a greater chance of being exposed, be careful. Make sure it stays concealed, or you will experience a GOFU.

Evan Nappen 37:15
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 37:25
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E201_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 200- What’s Komrade Harris’s Position on Guns?Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 200SUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun, firearm, new jersey, trigger, gun rights, place, rights, atf, law, forced, crank, lawyer, reset, lease, called, comrade, shoot, officer, person, stocks

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:19
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, you know, a big question that has been out there is, what are the policies of Comrade Harris? Now, Comrade Harris has not been very forthcoming with much specificity about her policies. However, when it comes to our Second Amendment rights, she is not bashful at all. So, I want to discuss with you her proposals and what she’s going to do to our rights and why she will become the premier Gun Rights Oppressor if she becomes the next president. You need to be aware of this. I have the sources here to explain to you exactly where they’re coming from. A lot of it is what you might expect from the party of oppression, the Democrats, and that is not stopping here on our Second Amendment rights, that’s for sure.

Evan Nappen 01:32
So, the first thing that the Democrats do, and what Comrade Harris has put forward here is the propaganda twist of Big Brother-type lies in the same manner as George Orwell. You know, very Orwellian, when you had like the Ministry of Truth, which was all about lies. So, it’s always the opposite of what it actually is. So, her statement at the recent destroy America party convention that was just held where she received the nomination, having not received a single vote from any American in any primary, but yet is their candidate. She said, the freedom, and this is the platform, the freedom to live safe from gun violence in our schools, community and places of worship. Now think about that. This person somehow twists freedom, the idea of our liberty, the idea of what is our right to a freedom “to live safe from gun violence in our schools, community, and places of worship.

Evan Nappen 03:12
Of course, it’s not living free from violence, just violence itself. But then, again, there’s good violence, and there’s bad violence, right? If someone’s threatening your life, you’re going to use violence to defend your life. That’s good violence. It’s criminal violence that we want to be concerned with. But no, no. If we start trying to do something about criminal violence, then we have to do something about criminals, and that means going after Democrat constituents. They don’t want to do that. So, let’s focus on the guns and call it “gun violence”. Now they couch this that somehow, by oppressing our rights, that it will make you, that it will set you free. It will give us the freedom you see, by oppressing your rights. There’s absolutely no logic when you start taking apart their propaganda and that’s what we’re going to do on this show.

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Evan Nappen 04:12
So, what are the specifics to give us such great freedom? What is it that she’s looking to do, specifically, and for that matter, the entire Democrat party. What are they looking to do? Well, the answer can be found in what she has said and the Democrat party platform. The Democrat party platform that’s, of course, endorsed by Comrade Harris, says the following. There are about seven agenda items of right suppression. This is from the platform. Democrats will establish Universal Background Checks. So, that is UBC. Universal Background Checks is code for universal gun registration and the ending of any private sales, and to make sure that they know who has the guns. This makes it very easy to confiscate them. As we’ve discussed before, but in case you forgot, the four words go something along the lines of Legislation, then Registration, then Confiscation, then Extermination. That’s a pattern that’s been followed through history, and we’ve seen it in every major holocaust that human race has faced since the existence of firearms. So, be very, very wary of so- called Universal Background Checks. UBC is code for gun registration, which is simply the march toward those other things happening.

Evan Nappen 06:00
They will once again ban assault weapons and high capacity magazines. So, she wants to ban modern sporting rifles and standard capacity magazines. The Federal assault firearm ban was useless. It had no impact on crime, of course. Now, it did have some positive effects. One of the most positive effects, particularly the magazine capacity prohibition, was by limiting it to 10 rounds, it forced handgun makers to actually make handguns that were accurate. Now, they had to actually shoot well, because you can’t just spray and pray with 10 rounds. So, they had to improve accuracy and make handguns more concealable, but at a larger caliber. Since you could only carry 10 rounds, it had the wonderful effect of making more accurate, more deadly, and more concealable handguns, which is great for self-defense. I have no problem with that, but I really don’t want to see a magazine ban. Because on the flip side, what it does is it turns law-abiding citizens into criminals, especially when there’s no grandfathering. They have said over and over again that they don’t want to have grandfathering, that pesky grandfathering thing again, when they pass these laws. Of course, assault weapons that we’ve discussed over and over is simply modern sporting rifles, semi-automatics. They just want to have a sweeping ban, to prohibit as many guns as they can under that banner.

Evan Nappen 07:50
She’s even gone so far as to say she wants a mandatory buyback. Isn’t that cute? Buyback? How can you buy back something that’s not yours in the first place? You’re not buying back anything. What you’re doing is forcing people to forfeit their property and then allegedly giving them some type of compensation, which is always a fraction of the actual worth. Not that any of us want to part with our firearms for some Government-issued money. It’s one thing if you want to sell your own gun, I get it. That’s a personal choice. But if you are forced to sell it so that you have criminal penalties if you fail to do so? Well, that is a Democrat highlight, I guess, of oppression. They will require, this is again from the Democrat Platform, safe storage for firearms. Oh, how nice that sounds. They want to require safe storage. What that really means is we have to lock up our safety. Your gun has to remain in a locked cabinet, so that when the hot robbery is taking place, when the gang of MS 13 Democrats is attacking your home, you get to ask them to please wait while you unlock your gun safe and load your gun so that you can defend yourself. Yeah, that will work out really well.

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Evan Nappen 09:28
Democrats will “end the industry’s immunity from liability”. What does that mean? That means they want to end the consumer protection that’s been put in place to protect the firearm industry from lawsuits. Part of the anti-gun rights oppressors’ plans are to litigate and sue the gun industry out of existence. So, by abusing the tort system and suing gun makers for the criminal acts of third parties, they can bankrupt the gun manufacturing industry in America. But they don’t put it that way, of course. They say it is so gun makers can no longer escape accountability. Oh, yeah, isn’t that pleasant? Their propaganda is always astounding, but nonetheless, what do we expect from our Comrade?

Evan Nappen 10:34
They will pass a national Red Flag Law, and what is Red Flag? It’s confiscation without due process. New Jersey is currently suffering under its Red Flag law, known as ERPO, Extreme Risk Protection Orders. It can be filed by just any lie by any person. The next thing you know, your guns are seized, and your rights are taken. You don’t even know what’s happening. Finally, down the road, after all the damage has been done, your house was searched and your guns were taken, you finally get a hearing. How nice of them. At that hearing, you get to fight to get your rights back. And of course, these ERPOs are quite deadly and dangerous for gun owners because the police don’t know who they’re dealing with. All they know is it’s an extreme risk. Law-abiding citizens have been shot and killed during the execution of these orders. By “swatting”, by folks that just make up lies and have them hit your house. They come armed and ready to seize your guns. So, you know, Red Flag is bad news. New Jersey is proof of it, and the rights abuse and due process abuse is just astounding with red flag, so called red flag. We’ve got to stop it from taking place nationally. It’s a violation of our Fourth Amendment rights against unlawful search and seizure and a violation of due process. Yet, the courts in the gun rights oppressive states are very slow to apply those other rights that we have. Of course, all this is being done, don’t forget, in the name of a freedom, freedom. This is all for freedom, my friends. Freedom. I mean, it’s just nauseating, right?

Evan Nappen 12:38
Then, of course, they’ll increase funding for BATF and FBI for the background checks. So, you know, continue with the weaponization of our Government agencies and the constant attack on law-abiding citizens. That is, of course, fundamental to gun rights oppression. So, they have a very complete and thorough platform of gun rights oppression and that is Comrade Harris’s position on guns. Now her other policies at the moment, nobody knows for sure. Of course, she isn’t really talking to the media or having questions asked or putting forward specific policy. But they seem to have made an exception for guns. When it comes to taking our rights, they seem to have no problem saying exactly what they want to do to oppress our gun rights. Whenhen it comes to the election, make sure you vote accordingly if you care about your gun rights. Make sure you know that that this is down the pike if she is successful in her election. I just wanted to make sure that Gun Lawyer listeners were aware of the facts about her position on guns and gun rights.

Evan Nappen 14:00
Now, with that being said, I want to bring to your attention an article that I saw that is just insane. I just have to talk about it, because it is so bizarre. This is from The Daily Beast, which normally is kind of,

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you know, out there to the left. A pretty strong lefty publication there, but nonetheless, sometimes even a blind squirrel finds a nut. The Daily Beast had an article, and the title is, “American Backpacker Flips in Court Over Gold-Plated Gun”. (https://www.thedailybeast.com/american-backpacker-liliana-goodson- flips-in-court-over-gold-plated-gun) I swear you can’t make this stuff up. Wait until you hear this. Ready?

Evan Nappen 14:46
Now, of course, the person involved in this is from Florida. Somehow, it’s always a Floridian in this insanity. I don’t know why that is. I’m going to read this. Owen Lavine wrote this article. Here’s the subtitle to the article. “A Floridian was on their way to clown school in Sydney, Australia, when authorities found the weapon in their luggage.” I got to tell you. I totally believe that this person was going to clown school. You’ve got to see the picture of this person. It is beyond words. And you talk about the opposite of drawing attention to yourself. I mean, she may as well, or he, or whatever it is. They don’t use the pronouns. Yeah, I don’t know. This person may have, literally, been dressed as like Ronald McDonald or something. But actually, they look even crazier. If you want to check out that article, you’ll see what I’m talking about.

Evan Nappen 15:53
The firearm that they had is a Colt. It’s an actual Colt. I can see the Colt slide. It’s a Colt 1911, but it is gold plated with a pearl handled grip. You can make that out in the picture. So, it’s a full size 1911 with a pearl-handled grip. And what happened here is they were apparently heading to Australia for this clown school, and they wanted to bring this gun. The name of the person is Liliana Goodson, who uses they/them pronouns, and said they, I guess, meaning her, singular, but we have to say they, “were on their way to a ‘clown institute in Sydney’ when they were stopped at Sydney Airport with a Colt .45-style pistol and ammunition in their luggage. . . ” This is the Daily Beast quoting the Daily Mail. Goodson, ready for this, also shared that they, again, they plural for a singular, were carrying a “cat spine, squirrel feet and rabbit pee”. Well, of course. I mean, who the hell doesn’t go to Australia with a gold-plated .45 1911 with pearl grips and a cat spine and squirrel feet and rabbit pee? Especially when you’re going to clown school in Sydney. Come on. Then it says, “When I got here, the gun wasn’t even in the back of my mind at all, they said, and they said that my memory failed me. The investigator said that they tried to search on Google what to do, but they weren’t exactly sure, so they apparently brought it to Australia anyway and didn’t worry about it. Then they claimed they’re actually “scared of shooting” the gun, but they’re from L.A. Oh, are you shocked that they’re from L.A.? They said, if you just brandish a weapon, people will scatter. There you go. That’s a hell of a self-defense training, right there, huh? Brandish your gold- plated pearl grip 1911 and, I guess, wave cat spines and rabbit pee at them or something like that, and they just scatter. Then here’s the greatest part. They entered a guilty plea in the court in Australia. It says that “she backflipped and pled guilty. Literally did a backflip in court and pled guilty. Goodson’s Attorney apparently did say that they suffered from mental health challenges. I don’t know. I somehow find that hard to believe but check out that article. You’ll see the picture. It is the world we live in.

Evan Nappen 19:15
Speaking of which, as the fight continues for our gun rights, New Jersey is a hotbed of such problems. In order to continue the fight, you need to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs.

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They are the NRA affiliate in New Jersey. They are the ones fighting for our rights in the courts and in the legislature. They have a full time paid lobbyist keeping an eye on the shenanigans down in Trenton, which seemed to never end, and they are battling the good fight in federal court and making headway. Fighting for our ability to carry. Fighting New Jersey’s so-called assault firearm ban and large capacity magazine ban. Every day, they are fighting the gun rights oppressors and their agenda. By joining the Association, you become part of the solution. You’ll get the updates, the great newsletter, and the emails. It’s a great group. Show your support. Join anjrpc.org,njrpc.org today. You’ll be glad you did.

Evan Nappen 20:28
Also, I want to mention WeShoot, our favorite range in Central Jersey, right there in Lakewood. Right off the Parkway. They are my range, a great range, and it is a resource that you can take advantage of. They have top notch staff and great training programs. Get your carry certificate there and training, your CCARE. They’ll help you out. They’ll help you get set up, get your gear, get everything you need to exercise your Second Amendment rights. Plus, you have a great place to shoot. Our ranges are an important resource. As you know, we’re looking forward to Lieutenant Colonel Hartman’s visit. I’ll be letting you know the date for the training by Lieutenant Colonel Hartman, the IDF Master Sniper, who created the entire firearms training program for the IDF. He’ll be personally training. If you want to take advantage of that training, check out his online course. As a matter of fact, in order to go to the live training seminar, which will be free, you need to take this course. You can access it right online at elitemarksman.com Elitemarksman.com. I’ve talked to a lot of folks that have already done it, and it’s a magnificent course. You’re really going to learn a lot, and you’re going to learn from the guy who’s been there, done that, the real deal. He’s got an amazing resume. He was one of the, actually, I think, the only Jewish soldier ever to make the cover of Soldier of Fortune. He’s a really interesting guy. When you go to that website (www.elitemarksman.com), make sure you use the promo code, GUNLAWYER (all caps). Gun Lawyer. You’ll will get $100 off the program.

Evan Nappen 22:23
Another thing of great importance is getting my book, New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s 120 topics, all in a question and answer format. I explain all the laws. It’s actually over 500 pages. The book itself can be a weapon. That’s just a joke, folks. But it is a substantial book, and it is the only book that explains what you need to know about New Jersey gun laws. When you get the book, scan the front cover, and get in my subscriber list so that you can access, for free, the archives. You will be able to get the email updates that come out so the book will stay current. To buy your copy, you just have to go to EvanNappen.com. That’s EvanNappen.com. You’ll see the big orange book right there. That’s my website. Get yourself a copy today.

Evan Nappen 23:29
Hey, here is some more really important news. The ATF just lost another one. This is on Force Reset Triggers (FRT), such as Rare Breed Triggers FTR-15s. Force Reset Triggers. (https://www.ammoland.com/2024/08/atf-requested-stay-denied-in-force-reset-trigger-case/) You may say, what is a Force Reset Trigger? Well, a Force Reset Trigger allows you to fire your gun very quickly. It is far superior to a bump stock, and it simulates machine gun fire. Oh, my God. How can we have a gun that shoots lots of bullets by pulling the trigger for every shot when with a semi- automatic, we can fire lots of bullets by pulling a trigger with every shot? Yeah, I know it’s crazy. Butut the good

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news is Judge Reed O’Connor, who is a wonderful judge in Texas, determined that the Force Reset Triggers that ATF went around confiscating claiming they were machine guns, as a matter of fact they confiscated almost 12,000 Force Reset Triggers, not only was it declared unconstitutional, but ATF is required to return them. That’s just wonderful. I love that they have to give them back.

Evan Nappen 25:06
Now, I know there are a number of people in New Jersey that ATF paid special visits to. To convince them, cajole them, scare them, into giving up their force reset triggers under their confiscation program, under the senile sock puppet. I’m sorry, I mean Joe Biden. When they did this, they scared a lot of people into doing it. They used threats and all kinds of things. Well, guess what, folks? If you were somebody that had your Force Reset Trigger seized, ATF is ordered to return it, and the judge denied a stay of that order. It’s not stayed. It’s in effect. I know ATF is going to appeal it, but good luck, considering the Cargill case. Under Cargill that invalidated what? Their bump stock prohibition. And guess what? Bump stocks do something very similar to force reset triggers, only better.

Evan Nappen 26:14
I’ll tell you one other thing about force reset triggers that you may find very interesting. Under New Jersey law, bump stocks are separately prohibited. So, even though bump stocks are now arguably okay in the USA, although they’re still trying to appeal it and fight it, you may want to wait a little bit longer. But hey, it’s pretty darn good there on that front with bump stocks. New Jersey law separately prohibits bump stocks. So, in New Jersey, you still can’t have a bump stock because it was invalidated, not on Second Amendment grounds. It was invalidated on overreach and a violation of their administrative agency powers. You know, abuse of agency power is what invalidated it. But you see New Jersey prohibits bump stocks and New Jersey prohibits trigger cranks. I guess sometimes, if get cranky while shooting, we might consider ourselves to be a trigger crank, but that’s not what they’re talking about. In New Jersey, a trigger crank means any device or instrument attached to a firearm that repeatedly activates the trigger of the firearm through the use of a lever or other part that is turned in a circular motion. (N.J.S. 2C:39-1ff.) You know, like hell fire. Those devices.

Evan Nappen 27:51
Butut it doesn’t include any weapon initially designed and manufactured to fire through a crank or lever. So, first of all, you may be surprised to learn that in New Jersey, Gatling guns are legal. That’s right. You can have a Gatling gun in New Jersey. You can even have one of those newly made Gatling guns by Tippmann. (https://tippmannordnance.com/gatling-gun/) You know, the 9 mm Gatling guns that use Glock mags. That’s okay, because it’s originally made with a crank. But you can’t have a gun where you added the crank. That’s because legislators are kind of cranky about the whole thing, right? So, Gatling guns, okay. Trigger cranks, no good. Bump stocks, no good.

Evan Nappen 28:39
But, drum roll, please. Force reset triggers are legal in New Jersey. They’re not prohibited. So, a force reset trigger is not a bump stock. A force reset trigger is not a trigger crank. For that matter, neither is a binary trigger. You know, Franklin Armory and such, where the firearm will fire on both the pull and the release of the trigger. It’s still two actions. But the force reset triggers, plainly, not a bump stock, plainly not a trigger crank. So, if ATF wants to give you back your force reset trigger because they’re

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mandated to do so, 12,00012,000 of them, by the way, and you live in New Jersey, well, happily accept it back and enjoy it.

Evan Nappen 29:34
Let me also bring to your attention some letters that I received. I always love getting letters. This one’s from Thomas. He says, I enjoyed your podcast 182. What happens if a spouse did not estate plan for handguns to go to a child, and they went to the surviving spouse? After both parents pass away, do children get custody of the handguns just like the spouse did? The answer is as long as the children are the beneficiary of the last deceased spouse, then the entire estate would go to those residuary beneficiaries, those beneficiaries, and if that estate includes guns, and the answer is yes. Those guns go to the heirs or beneficiaries, whoever they may be. You do not have to specifically say that guns go to your heirs or beneficiaries if they’re getting your whole estate. If you want to split it up, where certain guns go to certain people, or you want your estate to go to your spouse, but the guns to go to your kids, then you need to spell it out. But the answer here would be yes. The children do get the guns, as long as they’re the ones that are getting the estate. Normally, that’s how it works. So, thanks for the question, Thomas.

Evan Nappen 31:09
Then I have another question, and this one is from Jeff. And Jeff says, Mr. Nappen, I was listening to Gun Lawyer, as I always do, and I was interested in the answer you gave about carrying in a sensitive place, with exemption, if it is your place of business. I’m a physician. I have a concealed carry. I work in a private practice, but the building is leased from the hospital. In other words, I’m a partner in the practice, but the hospital owns the building. I spend the majority of my time at work, unfortunately. I would like to carry there. Do you think the fact that is my place of business trumps the sensitive place issue? The answer there is, if you actually lease wherever you are there, then that is your office that you lease, and that is your place of business. The hospital is merely the landlord, and you now have the dominion control and leasehold you’re leasing that office. If you’re in that office that you are leasing, then that is your place of business. And under the sensitive places exemptions under 2C:39-6e. exempt from sensitive places. One of the exemptions under 2C:39-6e. is place of business. So, if it is bona fide your place of business and it is land essentially owned or possessed by you by way of a lease, then you have exemption of both, arguably, land owned or possessed and place of business. It’s your business. You’re the partner in the practice that you are leasing under, I’m assuming, an agreement for that spot, for that place, just as any other business might lease its offices or storefront or anything else. That’s how it works. So, it appears, from what your question has asked, that yes, you are covered.

Evan Nappen 33:02
Now let’s go to the favorite segment of Gun Lawyer, which is the GOFU. And what are GOFUs? GOFU is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. And why do we talk about GOFUs? Because they are expensive lessons that you can learn for free, and then you don’t have to repeat those expensive lessons. Let me tell you something that I’ve seen a lot of again in the practice, and it keeps happening and happening. This is a little bit of a reverse GOFU, but it still qualifies, I believe. Because I don’t want to see you have the problem. Regardless of how serious the problem is or isn’t, I don’t want to see you have the problem. The issue is that police often do not know the laws. Police don’t know the laws. They’re trained to a certain degree, but honestly, they’re not up to speed on the gun laws the way my listeners of Gun

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Lawyer are. They just often don’t know, and they are often wrong. I see this all the time. So, I’m sure that you would prefer not to be a victim of an officer’s mistake. That would be the GOFU, right? You don’t want to have that happen to you.

Evan Nappen 34:22
Lately, I’ve had cases where an individual was stopped, and under Duty to Disclose, disclosed his concealed loaded handgun on his person that he was properly carrying, showed his carry permit, but the officer said, wait a minute. He read the law, and the law says you can’t have a gun while transporting in a car. They actually put the cuffs on. Then they called the higher up officer who seemingly confirmed it, and it was a big mess. Now, luckily, there were no charges here, but what a hassle and what a problem. And why didn’t the officer know? The officer didn’t know about the case law, about the law that the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs successfully fought, having that section declared unconstitutional. So, yeah, the law is there in the statute book, but it has an injunction on its enforcement, and the officer wasn’t aware of that. I have a suggestion. You should keep, if possible, a copy of my book and its updates in your car. Because if you get stopped and you have a problem, you can go to the source to the Bible of New Jersey Gun Law and say no, right here. Nappen says that is okay. Right there.

Evan Nappen 35:52
I’ll tell you what else I’m running into. Hollow nose ammunition. All the time. I get these calls all the time. Hollow nose. The police stop them. I’ve had actual false charges. Why? Very popular rounds such as Hornady Critical Duty, Critical Defense, etc. Well, I want to point out something else that you may want to keep a copy of with you in the car or in your carry lock box, just so you have it. Particularly, if you’re carrying that great defense load. Go to the State Police website, and they have an FAQ on firearms (https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/firearms-faqs.shtml) Question 13 on the New Jersey State Police website, an official statement by those empowered to make it. It is absolutely a defense at law to rely upon that. If you go to Question 13, what does it say? Question: “I’m not a police officer, are hollow points legal for me to possess?” And right there it says the exemptions about where you can travel. Then it says, “Ammunition lacking a hollow cavity at the tip, such as those with a polymer filling, are not considered to be hollow point ammunition. An example of this can be seen with the Hornaday Critical Defense / Critical Duty, Cor-Bon PowRball, Glaser Safety Slug and Nosler Inc. Defense ammunition.”

Evan Nappen 37:32
Hey, folks, not only do they make it clear, but they also even name the brands. So, if you have that ammo in your carry gun, which is all good stuff, factory defense loads, right there. Great stuff. Why not keep a copy of this FAQ by the New Jersey State Police? Keep it with my book and the updates. If you run into a problem, you can say, look, I have the documentation that it’s legal, right there. Don’t make a false arrest. Boom! You stop the problem before it escalates, and you will not be a GOFU.

Evan Nappen 38:12
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

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Speaker 3 38:20
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E200_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 199-How New Jersey Gabs GunsAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 199SUMMARY KEYWORDS

guns, knife, new jersey, switchblade, otf, firearm, seized, law, fight, shoot, call, range, jersey, domestic violence, gun rights, tro, seizure, rights, part, blade

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:15
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I’m going to dwell today in the area of how New Jersey grabs guns. How they basically steal your guns and gun rights right out from under you. I’ve seen case after case. By understanding the methods and the laws that New Jersey abuses to the fullest, you may be able to better protect yourself. Even if you’re thinking to yourself, hey, I don’t do anything that’s a problem. None of this that Nappen is talking about I would ever have anything to do with. Well, it doesn’t matter. Because if anyone in your household has any of these issues, everybody’s guns get seized. All the guns in the household get taken. Then you, as an innocent third party, you’re stuck having to fight to regain your guns and gun rights as the state claims that this problematic or prohibited person is in your household.

Evan Nappen 01:37
So, what are the primary methods that New Jersey employs to steal guns? To disenfranchise individuals of their gun rights, and to have a continuous every day all law enforcement taking these actions. One by one, taking people’s guns. And you never hear a peep about this in the Imperial Media, of course. But that’s why you listen to Gun Lawyer. So, I’m going to explain how this works. One of the main laws, there’s about three of them, and then we’ll talk about the fourth that isn’t even a law. The main law that gets heavily abused is the domestic abuse law. Now, domestic violence, domestic violence abuse, it’s a serious topic. It’s important that we address those incidents. I totally get that. Nothing I’m about to say is meant to belittle anything about the seriousness of domestic violence. However, the domestic violence laws in New Jersey are so broad and all-encompassing that it is extremely easy to get at least a Temporary Restraining Order filed.

Evan Nappen 03:17
With domestic violence, if an individual claims to be a victim of domestic violence and to be a victim, it’s statutorily defined as someone who’s a spouse, or someone who’s a household member, or someone who has a dating relationship with that person, etc., and that person makes a claim that a predicate act of domestic violence has occurred. This is basically the criminal code of laws, various offenses that are labeled as domestic violence offenses, when the alleged victim is someone in that category I just said. For a TRO to issue that person simply has to make essentially prima facie claim. You’re not involved in that. The other person is not involved in it. It’s done ex parte. They just tell the judge whatever story they want to tell. They could make up an utter and complete lie. And that often happens. We encounter

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that a lot, but it doesn’t matter. If they put forward that predicate act, and the predicate acts run the gamut from attempted murder all the way down to harassment.

Evan Nappen 04:49
Now, harassment in New Jersey is a crime, it isn’t a crime. New Jersey actually, technically, calls crimes felonies. But harassment as an offense is a petty disorderly person’s offense. The lowest level of criminal offense. The element of harassment is essentially doing something with the purpose to annoy. That’s essentially it. So, if any of you have ever annoyed your spouse or girlfriend, then arguably, you’ve committed harassment, and if they wanted to complain about it, they could at least get a TRO out of the box. Once that TRO issues, a Temporary Restraining Order, then as part of that Order, already preprinted on the form is a warrant to search and seize the guns of the defendant and anything that’s in the household where that defendant resides. So, we frequently get TROs that might be brought by a girlfriend of a son who’s living with the mother and father, and the mother’s and father’s guns get taken even though they had nothing to do with anything. It doesn’t matter. They all get seized. Of course, the defendant’s guns get seized. It doesn’t matter about how much of a lie may or may not have been told to get the TRO. All the guns get seized.

Evan Nappen 06:15
Then you’re going to have a Final Restraining Order hearing where they decide whether to make the TRO a FRO (Final Restraining Order). If it becomes a FRO, then you’re barred from having guns under both New Jersey law and Federal law. But even if the TRO gets dismissed, you still are going to have to fight to get your guns back. Because what comes next is a Weapons Forfeiture Hearing where they’re going to look at everything all over again. It doesn’t matter that the TRO was dismissed. They will look at anything else in your background and anything that may have been seized. And that’s an important point right there. Because I see often that individuals have something that might be viewed as contraband by New Jersey. Like you have a magazine that, instead of holding 10 rounds, may hold an extra bullet. You know it may hold 11 rounds. Oh, my God. If you have that magazine, you’re looking at a felony level offense, what New Jersey would call a crime of the Fourth Degree. You’re looking at a criminal charge facing up to 18 months in State Prison for your so-called large capacity magazine that we prefer to call a standard capacity magazine. That’s just one example.

Evan Nappen 07:26
So, what happens now is this. You’re an innocent third party. Your guns are seized, and the magazine is found. Maybe, let’s even say it’s in a handgun that you lawfully acquired with a pistol purchase permit before the law changed, and you didn’t remember that it held over 10 rounds as a standard mag that came with the gun. It doesn’t matter. Now you can face an escalation to criminal charges. They’ll use it to try to deny the return of your guns. They’ll use it to revoke your gun licenses, and they may use it to keep your firearms that they already have. So, this is where you see the escalation factor and the other problems that can ensue once there is any type of domestic violence TRO.

Evan Nappen 08:11
We get a lot of those cases. A lot of people end up having their guns seized by the Government, and we have a fight to try to get them back at the subsequent weapons forfeiture hearing. It’s very important that if you are the subject of domestic violence restraining order, that you fight it. Because if you get a

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FRO (Final Restraining Order), you become a prohibited person, essentially equivalent to a convicted felon. So, domestic violence seizures are one of the areas fraught with abuse that I encounter frequently.

Evan Nappen 08:48
The other method is what is called Red Flag. It’s not officially called Red Flag. Sometimes Red Flag is applied to any seizure. But what I’m talking about here is Extreme Risk Protection Orders. What we call ERPOs. It begins with a Temporary Extreme Risk Protection Order, which is a TERPO. Then, if it becomes final, it becomes a FERPO, a Final Extreme Risk Protection Order. It’s an ERPO that begins as a TERPO that can become a FERPO. And if it happens in Burlington County or Bergen County, you get a BERPO. I’m just kidding about the last part. But the procedures on Red Flag what happens again. This time it doesn’t have to be anybody defined specifically as a victim. It can be a neighbor. It can be somebody you just met. It could be the police themselves. Someone can simply make a claim, again ex parte, without you even being aware about anything, claiming that you’re somehow a danger to yourself or others, that you have a gun, and boom, a TERPO issues. Part and parcel of that will be another pre- printed warrant, and your guns will be seized. Anybody in the household, their guns will be seized, and we’re back to that same pattern of behavior. These pre-printed warrants are just offensive, frankly, to the Fourth Amendment. I mean, in New Jersey to get approval for seizing guns, it’s harder to get a sandwich at Wawa, than to have this happen. It’s just crazy how almost automatic the warrants are that are part of these orders as it gets issued on the seizure. Again, the same problems can ensue. It can escalate. You can lose your rights, even if you’re not the person who was a target of the original TERPO.

Evan Nappen 11:07
Then we have the third method, which is what we call Duty to Warn. Now Duty to Warn occurs where an individual makes any kind of statement to a medical professional. It could be a therapist, it could be a doctor, a nurse, etc, any type of statement about harming themselves or others. If they make that statement, then it is required for the medical professional to call the police. At which time the police will come, and they will not only take your guns away, but they then take you away. You get subject to an emergency medical evaluation. It’s kind of a variant on the Duty to Warn, is anybody who ever calls for a wellness check, if somebody calls for a wellness check on you, then you can expect the same type of Duty to Warn mechanism where the guns get seized. Then not only are you fighting for your freedom from being put in a mental institution, but you’re fighting to get your guns and your gun rights back. If you’re an innocent third party again in the same household, you’re going to be pulled right into it as well.

Evan Nappen 12:43
Then the fourth method of abuse, of seizure, of taking guns of New Jersey, stealing guns and gun rights, is where the police just decide to take your guns for so-called “safekeeping.” They’re not relying on any provisions in law. Basically, I call that the pulling it out of their ass basis, okay? Again, it doesn’t matter. Jersey likes to take guns and ask questions later. Oddly, if you’re subject to one of those “safekeeping” seizures, one of those statutorily baseless seizures, it’s often even more of a fight to get your guns back because there’s no statutory procedure. However lacking in due process this is, all of New Jersey’s procedures are, there’s no due process on that type of seizure. There are no laws on that

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type of seizure. So, we kind of have to force their hand in getting to court to regain your guns and your gun rights. Again, if you’re an innocent third party there, you get jammed up as well. You face the same risks and the same problems. This is how New Jersey is constantly seizing individual’s firearms and taking their gun rights, too.

Evan Nappen 14:14
So, you need to let your family members know that if police get contacted, and look, if police need to be contacted, they need to be. I’m not saying not to, if there’s a need to. But they need to know that it’s not something ever to be done lightly. I’ve had cases, many, where the person who calls only wanted to scare them, or I only wanted to help them, or even though it wasn’t serious or I was just nervous about him, or whatever the reason, it leads to this compounding. It can even lead to felony level criminal charges and prison. The effect has no bounds, depending on what the facts are after the seizure. Because of it and due to it.

Evan Nappen 15:03
Then many of these times, swattings can occur. The police are told there’s an armed individual who is a danger to himself and others, and they come there nervous. If I was law enforcement, I’d be nervous, too. You do not know who you’re dealing with. And unfortunately, innocent gun owners get shot. They get killed. These are on record of happening. They didn’t know who was coming to the door. They didn’t know who it was. They didn’t know what was going down. So, this really can create a lot of danger, and it does. But regardless, it’s dangerous to your rights. So, you want to make sure you’re aware of it and that your family members are aware of what happens. Every week I’m getting case after case after case, which initially started by these methods that I’ve just explained to you.

Evan Nappen 15:57
We are fighting these things, of course. We’re fighting it via our great state Association, which is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the state gun rights group in Jersey, the umbrella organization of gun clubs in New Jersey. You can be an individual member, and you need to be an individual member. They’re the ones in the courts fighting for our rights, fighting the Carry Killer law, fighting the assault firearm ban, fighting the large capacity magazine ban. They’re making progress. They’ve made significant progress. They’ve eliminated, so far, a number of sensitive places so we can protect ourselves and not be victims. We can be defenders instead. They’ve just taken a piece out of the assault firearm law with more to come. We’re seeing great progress. It’s a long slog, and it’s a big fight. We need your support. Make sure you’re a member. You’ll be advised as to what’s going on down in Trenton. They have a full time paid lobbyist. They’re there being vigilant for your rights. Join anjrpc.org today. Be part of the solution by being a member of your great gun rights organization.

Evan Nappen 17:14
If you’re looking for a place to shoot, there’s none better that I can recommend than WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, New Jersey. Very convenient, right off the Parkway. It’s a top of the line range. That’s where I shoot, and my family shoots. We love it there. They will treat you like family. They have great trainers. Great deals and gear and guns and ammo. Everything you need to set you up quite nicely to be able to shoot, to shoot proficiently. Be qualified. Get licensed, everything, soup

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to nuts. You can get it done at WeShoot. You can go to weshootusa.com. They have beautiful photographs. They pride themselves on that. Check out their website.

Evan Nappen 18:06
And you know, we’ve been following along with WeShoot and our connection there with Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman. Lieutenant Colonel Hartman, an Israeli IDF Master Sniper, created the entire firearms training program for the IDF. He’s an amazing hero of Israel in the fight against terrorism. Well, he has an amazing course, by the way, called Elite Marksman, where he teaches the IDF training for rifle. It’s a video, a very detailed video training course that you can watch and learn. You want to subscribe to that and get that course with all the great materials, plus the IDF targets he sends and everything else. He’s really great guy. I love Lieutenant Colonel Hartman. He just an amazing man. Remember to use the promo code, GUNLAWYER, all caps. GUNLAWYER. To get $100 off. He will be coming live, arrangements are being made as we speak through WeShoot. They’re gaining a rifle range to use, and if you’ve purchased that Elite Marksman course, you’ll be able to attend for free to Lieutenant Colonel Hartman’s in person course. He will train all of us directly. He’s going to enhance and refer to his program. You want to have that Elite Marksman course before you go, and he’s going to give us live training. I’m really looking forward to it. When I get the actual date, I will definitely let my listeners know about it. You can also go to weshootusa for more information on that as well. So, check it out at elitemarksman.com. These are great resources that I try to tip you off about.

Evan Nappen 20:11
Of course, the finest resource on New Jersey gun law, as I brag about it, is my book New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics, all in a question and answer format. It’s the guidebook, the handbook, the manual to stay out of trouble in New Jersey. There’s no other book like it at all, and it’s a labor of love. I put hundreds and hundreds of man hours into writing it, and I keep it up to date. It’ll be a great resource for you. You should all have a copy of it and keep it handy. You can go to EvanNappen.com. EvanNappen.com. That’s my website. You’ll see the big orange book there. Click it, and it’ll take you right to the page so you can order it. You’ll have it in a matter of days. When you get the book, scan the front cover there, the QR code. You can then subscribe for free to my database. I do not distribute that in any way. We put out updates, and you’ll have access to the archives of past updates. So, this way your book stays current. Make sure you get your copy. Talk to anybody that has a copy. They’ll tell you how much they use it. And when you get your copy, one rule, do not loan it out. Because if you do, you’ll never get it back. Boy, I hear that all the time.

Evan Nappen 21:40
Let’s take a look now at some letters. I really enjoy the letters. I love hearing from you folks. This one is from Marcus. Marcus says, regarding outdoor range. I’m an NRA instructor, and it’s getting very hard for me to qualify students at indoor ranges. I was thinking about buying a piece of property so I can train my students in live fire. I think you might say live fire outdoor. I cannot find any information. In which county or town would they let me do such a thing? Can you please point me in the right direction? So, this is tricky because of how the possession works. If you’re going to set up an actual target range, that might be one way, but it has to be arguably authorized. If you’re on your own property, you have an exemption to shoot there, as long as the town doesn’t have an ordinance

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prohibiting discharge. New Jersey State law doesn’t control ranges. It’s more of a town law. So, you want to check on discharge and all that.

Evan Nappen 23:03
Once you set up a range, now, if it’s a personal range, that just means it’s your own personal property. But if a student comes there with a firearm, are you operating it as a public range? Is it an authorized range under the statute? That becomes troublesome, you know, it becomes very fact sensitive. There really isn’t a great way here, unless you get your facts all in a row about the authorization of the range itself, unless you want to actually get a piece of property and get it approved officially by the town as an outdoor range. Now, one thing that may be helpful is this. Keep in mind, if you want to qualify, and we’re talking about CCARE, that can be done with air pistols. Now air pistols are still considered firearms. So, it would still be considered a firing range. However, if the town only prohibits firearms, and they have a town definition of a firearm, maybe it doesn’t include air guns. That’s something. Air guns are also a lot quieter than a powder type firearm that uses cartridges. So, that may be helpful, I don’t know, but it is difficult. This is one of the reasons why I push about people, our resources, with our ranges, particularly WeShoot, because it’s difficult to find places to shoot. I can sympathize, but the law is not very flexible. This is something that really needs to be addressed further by the legislature. But thanks for a great question, Marcus.

Evan Nappen 25:02
Here’s a question from Rich. Rich says, Hello, I listen to your show every week. That’s good as well. You should. Anyway, I have a question about informing a police officer of your Permit to Carry when pulled over. I’m a New Jersey Permit to Carry holder. I understand that a Permit to Carry holder must inform police and show them you have a permit and inform them that you have a concealed handgun if pulled over. Yes, that is correct. You must immediately do that. The question is, do I have to inform and show the police officer the permit if I’m not carrying the handgun with me on that particular day? The answer is no. You only have a Duty to Disclose if you have your handgun loaded, concealed on your person, properly carrying it, when you are pulled over. If you don’t have a gun, there’s nothing to disclose. The disclosure is to disclose that you’re carrying a gun. So, not a problem. There is no need to inform. Now, if you are transporting your gun to the range, not carrying it loaded concealed on your person, but have it cased, unloaded in your trunk or a lock box, etc, then you still have a Duty to Inform the police that you are transporting as well as carrying. If the gun is in your vehicle like that, you still have to tell them, if you have a Permit to Carry a handgun. If you do not have a Permit to Carry a handgun and you are transporting under the old exemptions, going to the target range with your cased and unloaded firearm, you have no obligation to disclose that you have the firearm. If you are carrying your gun illegally, you have no Duty to Disclose that you have a firearm. Only Permit to Carry holders have a Duty to Disclose whether they are carrying their handgun loaded concealed on the person, or whether they are transporting it. That’s how Duty to Disclose works.

Evan Nappen 27:22
I have another letter, and this one is from Jack. Jack is asking a question about one of my loves. I’m not talking about women. I only have one of those. That’s my wife. My other great love, and it says regarding knife laws. Hi, Evan. Question for you. Are switchblade OTF knives, OTF is short for Out The Front knives, legal to possess in your home as part of a collection in NJ without any intent to use for

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self-defense or any intention to carry? Can opening boxes and using it as a tool for everyday house repair tasks be considered a lawful purpose? If not, then how come these are being openly sold at gun shops and places like Home Depot?

Evan Nappen 28:12
So, the switchblade law in New Jersey is really quite a piece of work. I believe the switchblade law has a foot in the grave as far as it being even enforceable now, in light of the trilogy of Heller, Bruen, McDonald, etc, on our Constitutional rights. The problem is that switchblades, which an OTF does fall under that category of a switchblade, because the blade opens automatically by pressure to a button or other device in the handle of the knife, the law divides up. There is what we call the per se section under N.J.S. 2C:39-3, where you cannot possess unless you can. You have the burden of demonstrating that reason, that purpose, etc. They view those as per se prohibited. Switchblade, dagger, Dirk, stiletto, Ballistic Knife, etc. Even slingshot falls under that category. Yes, New Jersey makes possession of a slingshot a felony level offense. You’re looking at 18 months in State Prison for possessing a slingshot in New Jersey. So, Dennis the Menace and Bart Simpson are felons in New Jersey. They put switchblades in that category.

Evan Nappen 29:43
There is a defense built in, but the burden is on you. One thing for sure, you don’t want to be carrying your switchblade. At least until we get the case law finally killing off these idiotic archaic knife laws. There’s another section under 2C:39-5d. which is “other weapons.” That means everything else, not including firearms that are separately prohibited under 2C:39-5. So, 2C:39-5d., the “other weapons” section, also includes knives. But there is an exemption to 2C:39-5d. Under 2C:39-6.e., and all these will be linked on the website to these laws, by the way. Under 2C:39-6.e. possession in your home of “other weapons” and those firearms under the other subsections are exempted. So, the d. charge under 2C:39-5 has a home exemption for possession. The only possible charge for having it in your home is the 39-3 section charge of the per se.

Evan Nappen 31:05
Now, I’ve had a case where a guy had a $25,000 collection of modern automatics. By the way, switchblades are archaic even in the term, but it’s in our law, actually calling them switchblades. The modern term today is automatic knives. I had a guy with a collection of $25,000 in automatic knives, and I was able to show that he was a collector. He subscribed to Blade Magazine. He belonged to a knife collector club and an arms collector club. All these knives had significant collector value, either in their function, design or form, and we were able to show that his manifest lawful purpose was precisely that, collecting. I was able to get the criminal charges dismissed and actually got his collection returned. But even though that’s possible and can be done, I’m sure you don’t want to have to go through that mess. This is why I can’t just give you the green light on yes, you can possess them. Because when you do, you run the risk of having to fight that fight. So, keep that in mind.

Evan Nappen 32:12
Now, for the most part, a lot of the switchblade laws are not vigorously enforced in the United States. As a matter of fact, surprisingly and amazingly in the federal challenge to the Federal Switchblade Act, the actual defense that the U.S. Government used, that at the moment, was actually successful, which

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is just astounding, is saying, well, we don’t enforce the Federal Switchblade Act. (KnifeRights.org) So, this is a moot challenge. This case is not necessary because we don’t actually enforce it. The Court actually bought that. And I’m like, great. As long as they’re not enforcing a law, it stays on the books. Is that how it works? I mean, come on. But that’s still being fought. You can see that there is some reality to enforcement of knife laws. Normally in the world of knives, it’s not as vigorously enforced, but you still have a risk. You still have that risk. I’m not discounting that risk, but I normally don’t see it as aggressive.

Evan Nappen 33:17
Right now, the agenda is guns. Guns. They need to grab all the guns, and they’re working on it, as I’ve been explaining. Once they get rid of all the guns, then they can go after the knives. If you want to see that evolution, just look at the U.K. In the U.K., you see that’s exactly what happened once they stomped out everybody’s gun rights. Now it’s the entire anti-knife campaign, arresting people for knives. The Knife Act. You can’t have pointy kitchen knives. I had a guy at the Blade Show come up to me and said a cop confiscated his Swiss Army classic. The little, teeny Swiss Army that goes on a key ring because he was opening his mail with it in a coffee shop, if you can believe it. The cop said I could arrest you, you know, but instead, just he took it. How nice. He just confiscated his knife and left him with a warning. But this is what they’re dealing with in the UK, and we don’t need their nonsense coming here.

Evan Nappen 34:20
Here in America, we have Knife Rights (KnifeRights.org), which is a phenomenal knife rights organization. I’m counsel to Knife Rights, and they’ve got knife freedom laws passed across the U.S. It began in 2010 when we legalized and repealed all the knife laws in New Hampshire. Since then, many, many more states have done it. They’re challenging the Federal Switchblade Act. We need to repeal New Jersey’s idiotic knife laws, too. But, of course, with the politics in New Jersey, that’s going to be a bit before we can do that. But in the courts, progress is being made. I understand and appreciate your question, and I personally love OTF knives. I think it’s one of the best designs for a switchblade, because out the front is a very interesting knife. The blade stays fully contained in the handle, fully contained, so it’s protected. The spring is under no pressure until you actually use it. When you slide the button, that’s what actually, in some OTF designs, stretches the spring, and then it’s released, throwing the blade out. In other designs, the sliding of the button compresses the spring and then it’s released, throwing the blade out. Then the process is reversed, going backwards to throw the blade back into the handle. So, an OTF can sit in a closed position for years and years and years. The spring will never take a set because the spring is not being utilized until you’re actually running the OTF. That keeps the blade fully concealed so that it doesn’t get messed up, dinged up. You can effectively have a double edged knife because it’s completely covered. You can’t have a double edged knife on a folding knife because the sharp part will be sticking out. Only one edge gets protected by the handle of a knife in a folding knife, but in an OTF, the double edge is completely encapsulated and safe. So, there are a lot of advantages for OTFs, and they’re really a great design. And you know, some of the top makers are Microtech, Benchmade, Heretic, etc. The designs have just come so far, and they’re very exciting and very modern. If any of you ever watched John Wick, you see the effectiveness of OTFs, right?

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Evan Nappen 36:58
Hey, let me tell you the GOFU. This week’s GOFU, which is Gun Owner Fuck Up, and why do we talk about GOFUs? Because these are expensive lessons that you can learn for free and not repeat them. This week’s GOFU wraps right around to the beginning of the show and what the main topic of the show is. How New Jersey seizes guns. How they frequently do it. Their mechanisms for doing it. And if your guns get seized, the GOFU is if you anything that is a problem in your house, any of these things where Jersey has attempted to turn you into a criminal, whether it’s a magazine that holds more rounds, whether it’s some gun they’re intrinsically claiming is an evil black rifle with only one purpose, to kill hundreds of people. You know, whether it’s something that might have a stock that’s not approved, or maybe it doesn’t have a serial number. Oh, my God. You mean a privately made firearm, something Americans have been doing since before the country was a country? Yeah, you know, New Jersey turned that into a felony level offense as well. Then what you see is in the confiscation not only are your rights jeopardized and your ability to have guns jeopardize, but the GOFU is getting a further escalation to New Jersey’s serious gun laws. Even if they don’t criminally prosecute you, they will use the argument that you were in violation of New Jersey gun laws to disenfranchise you of your rights, to take away your guns and take away your rights. Beware, folks! Don’t make that GOFU.

Evan Nappen 38:49
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 38:57
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E199_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 198-When Your Lawyer SucksAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 198Gun Lawyer — Episode 198 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

court, due process, gun, case, lawyer, great, firearms, permit, denial, carry, state, dismissed, law, healthcare facility, lieutenant colonel, judge, hearing, petitioner, denied, raised

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Louis Nappen, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, today I have a guest on the show. One of my favorite guests to have on the show is my brother, Louis Nappen. Hi, Lou.

Louis Nappen 00:30 Hi. We meet again.

Evan Nappen 00:32
Yes. Lou, as many of you know, is also a gun lawyer. He works with me at the law firm, and Lou just had a nice win in the Appellate Division. This case is very interesting. There are some great lessons to learn here, some great takeaways, and we want to lay out for you what happened in this case. Now this case is called “In Re Application of A.J.J. for a Permit to Carry a handgun pursuant to N.J.S.A. 2C:58- 4.” That’s the actual title of the case. You can actually go online. If you go to our website with a transcript, we’ll have a link to the case if you want to see the actual case. (https://www.njcourts.gov/system/files/court-opinions/2024/a0493-22.pdf)

Evan Nappen 01:26
Louis, why don’t you lay out what happened here, some facts, and we’ll talk about the decision and what this case stands for. The takeaway, which in itself, is really this week’s GOFU. But go ahead.

Louis Nappen 01:42
Well, it is, and it isn’t. Yeah, it is, and it isn’t. Now, first off, I once again win for having a long title, a long caption for a case. Every time I seem to have the longest captions for cases in terms of what they’re titled. But this case is an interesting case from my point of view that I want to educate your audience a little bit about. Two things. One, due process. Due process. You hear that thrown around a lot. It’s in the Fifth Amendment. You always hear about the Fifth Amendment with other things. Due process essentially means that they can’t take away your life, liberty and property without due process. And what does that mean? Essentially, under the law, it means notice of what the issue is and opportunity to be heard. That’s your Fifth Amendment right in the federal context. Then they applied it also to the States under the 14th.

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Evan Nappen 02:39
So, there’s really fundamental fairness, right?

Louis Nappen 02:44
That’s right. Fundamental fairness is that they’re not going to have a full out hearing without knowing why you’re there, and then you have an opportunity to present your case. That’s the two aspects of that.

Evan Nappen 02:57
Right. And this, of course, is important when you’re dealing with hearings over licenses. Hearings for anything, even in criminal justice or in all the things we deal with all the time. Weapon forfeitures and what have you. In this case.

Louis Nappen 03:17
Anything, anytime you are in court.

Evan Nappen 03:18
In this case, what happened to AJJ?

Louis Nappen 03:23
Yeah, then there’s the second aspect of this which we’ll get into, which is, I think, equally important. It’s about effective assistance of counsel. So, let me tell you about AJJ here. Our firm did not handle this case at the trial level, at the Superior Court. And what happened is he was approved for a Permit to Carry from Patterson, I believe it was. The police chief approved him. But this case goes back to when it was the two part scenario. First you get approval or disapproval of the application.

Evan Nappen 04:04
Yes, this was the old law before the Carry Killer law, which got rid of judges. This is also a good example of why that was such a great idea to get rid of judges.

Louis Nappen 04:17
Correct. This really shows it. So, he was approved by the police chief, and then it went up to the Superior Court. Actually, the Assignment Judge of the Superior Court, one of the higher judges there. AJJ was calling up saying, I was told it was sent up. Where’s my carry permit? Because they were the issuing authority at that time. They said the judge wants to discuss with you regarding your permit. You know, that kind of a thing.

Evan Nappen 04:50
Okay, let me just say this. Anytime the court wants to talk to you, make sure you go there with a lawyer who knows what they’re doing. Do not walk into the lion’s den without an attorney. Period. But more than that, which this case is going to show, and you’ll get into it, your lawyer has to know what they’re doing. Go ahead.

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Louis Nappen 05:13
So, what’s interesting is, as you just said, AJJ is a listener of your show, and he heard you say, don’t go to court on a gun thing without a lawyer. Unfortunately, he didn’t hire us. He did hire a different attorney.

Evan Nappen 05:27 That’s a GOFU right there.

Louis Nappen 05:28
There’s a GOFU. So, he hired someone else. This is right from the decision. You’ll love this. In terms of the opinion, they put it in there. On August 29, 2022, the Petitioner appeared for a hearing before the trial court. When counsel entered an appearance for Petitioner, counsel told the court, and believe me, this was in my brief, exactly what happened in the transcript. “I happen to be on the sixth floor today, and they just assigned this to me.”

Louis Nappen 05:57
So, this council, I guess, his office just told him, you have this case. He comes down and says to the court, I’m here now. I just got assigned this case, and the state wasn’t even there. The state wasn’t there. No prosecutor was there. Now you didn’t have to have a prosecutor because they didn’t object to this application. Because this was going up on an approval. Okay, so a little bit about, a little background about AJJ here. So, he has multiple traffic violations. They made it out that he had many more than what I believe he had. The way that the system, when you get your readout of traffic. Now I didn’t represent them, and I would need to see all that.

Evan Nappen 06:46
Yeah, but this was not raised in the court below. None of it was raised. The guy just got assigned it. He walks in there, he walks in there, and it was already approved below. But what happens?

Louis Nappen 07:00
So, the court tells him, now let me say this. He has no juvenile delinquency issues, no convictions. He never had firearms seized from him before. No alcohol or mental health issues. He had all of his references, as I said, he got approved by the police chief. He’s there thinking, okay, the judge wants to maybe give me the hairy eyeball and approve this, and just say here’s your permit. No. So he’s there, and the court asks him if he’s received, asks the attorney if he received a copy of the state’s objection to the application. Counsel replied, no, I didn’t get that. The state had not provided the Petitioner with a copy of an objection. So, then the court provided him with the state’s objection letter. Meanwhile, the state wasn’t even present at the time. The court paused the proceeding for seven minutes so that he could see the objection.

Evan Nappen 08:04
Wait a minute. He was given an entire seven minutes to review the objection?

Louis Nappen 08:09 Right.

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Evan Nappen 08:10
That way, he had seven minutes to prepare defenses, research the law, talk to the client

Louis Nappen 08:17
Do you know how hard it is to talk in a confident manner in the court?

Evan Nappen 08:21
Seven whole minutes to do that, huh? Wow.

Louis Nappen 08:22
When the court resumed, counsel told the court he talked to him because he saw that he had a lot of tickets, but that he had paid them. He hadn’t had any tickets for many, for many years.

Evan Nappen 08:38
And his license wasn’t suspended.

Louis Nappen 08:41
No, his driver’s license was good.

Evan Nappen 08:44
He’s able to drive around town in a guided missile we call a car, but somehow, this is a problem. Go ahead.

Louis Nappen 08:49
So, the court asked the clerk for Petitioner’s drivers abstract and proceeded to go through his driver history. The hearing itself lasted 15 minutes, which includes the seven minute pause. So, eight minutes of hearing, the court then says, I find that in the interest of public health, safety, welfare, you should not be issued this carry permit. Now, remember, he already has a permit to purchase and a Firearms ID card. He got a handgun. He already has that, and he was approved by his police chief. By the way, they do not even ask about traffic on your application. There’s not a question on the form that says, do you have any traffic violations or DWI? Even DWI. They’re not asked.

Evan Nappen 09:41
You know they can do a full investigation.

Louis Nappen 09:44 Right.

Evan Nappen 09:44 But it’s not even asked.

Louis Nappen 09:46
Correct. It’s not even there. Then it says the fact that he had so many traffic tickets raises significant questions to his ability to comply with society’s rules and regs. Okay, he did also have some dismissed.

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Dismissed. So, in other words, he never had a hearing on them, or he did have a hearing and they were found unfounded. Dismissed restraining orders. Not final restraining orders, just temporary, and they got dismissed.

Evan Nappen 10:18
Now, remember, a temporary restraining order is done ex parte where one person just says whatever they’re going to say. And there’s no due process.

Evan Nappen 10:29
Not with the initial hearing.

Louis Nappen 10:29 None.

Louis Nappen 10:30 Right. You’re not there.

Evan Nappen 10:33
You’re not even there. And those got dismissed. They’re not a disqualifier at all.

Louis Nappen 10:39
Nothing. And they don’t have to be. Dismissed temporary restraining orders don’t have to be mentioned or even raised on the application. But that, in the court’s view, raised serious concerns regarding Petitioner’s ability to safely handle and use a handgun. I don’t know how that correlates, but that’s what they found. He was denied based on his driving history and the fact that he had dismissed TROs. Bingo, bango, done. He didn’t even know that this was a concern that the state had raised when he walked in, and he had all of 15 minutes, including a seven minute pause.

Evan Nappen 11:18
How did you win this appeal?

Louis Nappen 11:19
Okay, well, on appeal, as I normally do, I raised six points.

Evan Nappen 11:26
Well don’t go through them all. Just what was it that the court did? The main thing the appellate court did. What did the appellate court agree with you on?

Louis Nappen 11:33
That he did not receive due process, and that due process should have been afforded him. And I’m happy to say, was based on, was because of, I love that in my brief, I got to do this, citing my case before the Supreme Court that says you must provide due process by giving and telling an applicant if the court intends to deny this permit. You must inform him of the reasons why before the hearing and must provide an opportunity for him to explain.

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Evan Nappen 12:08
So, that case was the Carlton case, right?

Louis Nappen 12:13 Correct.

Evan Nappen 12:13
And that went all the way to the New Jersey Supreme Court.

Louis Nappen 12:18 That one did.

Evan Nappen 12:18
And that was a unanimous seven judge decision in the State of New Jersey. Imagine this, folks. Imagine this. A unanimous New Jersey Supreme Court found in favor of gun rights. Yeah, unanimously that even on gun permit hearings, we get due process. And Lou, you’re the guy that won that case and established that through our firm. You won it.

Evan Nappen 12:20
I like to say interestingly about it.

Evan Nappen 12:46
Again, you used it here to get this victory.

Louis Nappen 13:02
Correct. And what’s interesting about that, of course, is the statute doesn’t say you get that due process. The statute says you only get due process if you’re denied by your police chief. So, that is not due process. If you’re approved by your police chief but the court intends to deny it, you still get the due process of notice and opportunity to be heard. So, I raised, in addition to the due process aspect, of course, ineffective assistance of counsel, which I do not lightly raise. I believe in professional courtesy. Let lawyers handle their cases the way that they believe is the best way to handle it. I would have handled this differently and certainly would have said, I need more time to discuss this. Let’s adjourn this to another day so I can have the proper opportunity to review this with my client, at the very least. We shouldn’t have trial by surprise. We just shouldn’t.

Evan Nappen 13:58 Absolutely not. Trial by ambush.

Louis Nappen 14:00 Yeah, that’s right.

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Evan Nappen 14:02
You have a right to due process and to be able to have enough time to prepare. None of that was here. The Court recognized it as so fundamental a violation. And what is the outcome? What was the outcome?

Louis Nappen 14:18
So, the Appellate Court said that it was vacated. First off, they vacated it. The decision of that court was vacated. Done. It’s no longer the decision. And remanded. Now, interestingly, they remanded it back to the court where it came from, but that judge is no longer on the bench due to retirement. I don’t really have too much. This judge did this one wrong. I don’t hate this particular judge. I don’t have any ill will against this particular judge overall. I’m not going to name names, but in this particular case, I think he did wrong. Somebody could have a bad day and do something wrong.

Evan Nappen 14:57
The court seemed to agree with you and sent it back. But that means that the judge’s denial is reversed. So, now our client does not have a denial on his record.

Louis Nappen 15:12
That’s right, yeah. He would have to mention it every time.

Evan Nappen 15:16
For the rest of his life. Then they’d use it against him.

Louis Nappen 15:19
Especially in conjunction with, if you falsify, if you fail to mention it, you would be denied a permit because of that bright line rule that they did saying any false representation. You know that kind of thing if you know about it. They just say because you failed to mention a prior denial. But every application is looked at as new. So, it doesn’t make sense to me in that sense. But so be it. So, the bottom line.

Evan Nappen 15:42
Now we’re going to go back to the court and get this done properly.

Louis Nappen 15:46 Correct. It’s remanded.

Evan Nappen 15:50
That’s right. That’s what we need to do. To make sure that his rights to due process are vigorously enforced throughout because that’s the only way we do it.

Louis Nappen 16:00
And also, something else about our libertarian values here. In terms of one of my points that I raised, which the Court recognized, even though this was just about him having a bunch of traffic tickets and alleged dismissed TROs, temporary restraining orders, you’ll notice the name. The name of the case is AJJ. I made sure that his privacy was protected, and the Court recognized that as well, and named the

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court with initials. Nobody needs to know this guy had that in his history. It doesn’t need to be out there about him. But at the same time, he’s helping others by cases like this being published and fighting and not letting a denial stand.

Evan Nappen 16:38
Right and it’s instructive to others. It’s also instructive to other judges not to do this kind of thing. And remember, even though the law has changed to the new law, where the only time you’re going to go to court is if you’re denied, but on those denials, we still need vigorous due process so that we can fight to get your license if you are denied. The anti-gunners have put these vague things into the disqualifier. Such as public health, safety, welfare based on character and temperament, where they can look at your social media and things that you may have said. So, these become battlegrounds where you may have denials, and the fight needs to take place. Because the same criteria now to be approved for a carry license under 58-3 is the same criteria for an FID Card and a pistol purchase permit. So, if you get denied any one of those license, it can escalate to the revocation of the other licenses. Then they throw in taking your guns and trying to run a forfeiture. You’ve had great success on fighting those. So, this whole thing can escalate.

Louis Nappen 18:05
Whether you constitute some sort of danger, some sort of danger, and you get an extreme risk protection because of it, or something.

Evan Nappen 18:11 Exactly, yeah, exactly.

Louis Nappen 18:13
It’s very crazy. Well, there is an aspect to this I’d like to just mention. I think it was funny that on appeal, the state raised this. There is a little brief paragraph that’s in the decision that I did get a chuckle out of. It says we disagree with the states. This is we, meaning the court, the court disagrees with the state’s contention that Petitioner was accorded due process because the court paused the hearing so counsel and Petitioner could review the letter. In other words, we disagree that those seven minutes were enough. It says that did not cure the lack of opportunity for Petitioner to prepare for the court’s questioning on the particular objections and review any documents or provide documents on his own behalf. And that’s the key. But look how the state fought that saying, oh no, he had his seven minutes. What are you talking about?

Evan Nappen 19:04 Seven minutes, right?

Louis Nappen 19:07
You had your seven minutes with your attorney. But you didn’t have a chance to go home and find documents proving you paid those tickets.

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Evan Nappen 19:13
It’s crazy. Well, another win, another victory for you and the firm. We’re very proud of that. You did a great job. The client is very happy, and the fight continues.

Evan Nappen 19:28
Oh, yeah, I want to tell everyone about the WeShoot seminar with Lieutenant Hartman. Lieutenant Colonel Hartman. As you may know, this is really cool, the original live seminar has been put off because Lieutenant Colonel Harmon is actually going to be teaching at an actual range. Teaching the course with live rifle fire. You will be able to train and be trained by Lieutenant Colonel Hartman, who is, of course, the Master Sniper with the IDF. He created the entire firearms training program for the IDF. This man is an amazing guy, and they are going to announce shortly the new date for that. You can get his course, which I strongly suggest you get. It’s online, and then you can get that enhanced by going for the live seminar, which will be free as part of the course. You can find it at elitemarksman.com. If you put the promo code in GUNLAWYER, all caps, you get $100 off just for being a listener the show. Don’t forget the GUNLAWYER code. It’s elitemarksman.com.

Evan Nappen 20:59
You can go to WeShoot, to their website, weshootusa.com, for more information about this and for the updates. It’s very exciting. I’ll be there. I’m looking forward to it. It’s going to be great. And it’s so much better that we’re actually going to have actual training on the range by Lieutenant Colonel Hartman. You definitely don’t want to miss that. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood. It is a fantastic place. It’s where I shoot. It’s where my brother, Lou, shoots, and where we both got our certificates. So, we got our carry out of WeShoot. So did my son and so many others. And you can too. We shot, we shot. We shot at WeShoot. And you can shoot at WeShoot. Go to weshootusa.com. Go visit them right there, easily, right off the Parkway. It’s a great resource and a great place. They’ll be able to take care of you there. No problem.

Evan Nappen 22:07
Now, last week, we talked about the victory on the AR-15 being found unconstitutional as it being banned. That fight is ongoing. That’s through our great Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They’re litigating the large capacity magazine ban and the Carry Killer bill with all the ridiculous sensitive places. They want to keep you as a victim instead of a defender. They’re going at the other unconstitutional and outrageous provisions of the law that was passed in a big hissy fit by the other side after the Bruen decision. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is on it and fighting. You need to be a member of your state Association. It’s the umbrella organization of gun clubs throughout New Jersey, and you can be an individual member. You should. You’ll get informed by email of the latest laws that they may be trying to pass, and actions you can take to help fight it. You’ll be helping in the litigation. You get a newsletter sent to you. The top gun rights newsletter in New Jersey. So, go to ANJRPC.org and join the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. If you have my book, right on the back cover, is a big ad for the Association. It’s right there. There’s a reason I put it on the back cover. It’s that important. You need to be a member.

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Evan Nappen 23:44
It’s also important that you have my book. If you don’t have that book, New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law that I wrote for you. It is my labor of love. It’s the 25th Anniversary Edition with over 120 topics explained in a question and answer format. The actual laws are also there in the back, so that you can actually almost understand New Jersey gun law when you have that book. It will help you tremendously. It’s used by the State Police Firearms Division. It’s used by lawyers and judges and most importantly, gun owners like you and me throughout the state. So, get your copy. Go to EvanNappen.com. That’s my website. EvanNappen.com. You’ll see the big orange book there. Order it. You’ll have it in a matter of days. When you get the book, scan the front cover, scan that QR code, subscribe for free to my database, right there. I keep it private. I never distribute it. You will get updates from me, and you’ll know when the laws are changed. Any updates to the book. You get access to the archive of any of the updates that we’ve done so your book stays current.

Evan Nappen 24:58
Hey, I want to mention some interesting things that I’ve seen. You know, I end up looking at all the different aggregate websites of gun information. I’m constantly consuming these articles and such. When I see things that I find interesting, I always want to share them with you. There was an interesting article by Jennifer Sensiba, and it was called, “Why You Might See Swastikas At A Gun Show.” (https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/why-you-might-see-swastikas-at-a-gun-show/)

Evan Nappen 25:35
I really think that it’s great that this article is out there, and I have a link to it on the website. The point that she’s making is an important one. The reason is not because of gun owners being Nazis, which is how the other side wants to portray it, but it’s about history. There are so many great collectible military from all different countries, all different wars. This is an area, and what the other side is trying to do is shut down an understanding of history. We cannot let that happen. You know, just because you may have a piece of military from the Third Reich doesn’t mean you support them at all. You may have something from the Vietnam War that was Chinese communist. It doesn’t mean you support them. You may have something from any adversary at any time. It is not that you subscribe to their political beliefs. As a matter of fact, I don’t subscribe to those political beliefs at all, but I love history. I love learning and understanding so that we don’t repeat it. By shutting it down and shutting it out, by making it taboo, it’s exactly what we should not do. As the other side tries to control our thoughts, control our speech, and rewrite history, we can’t let that happen. We’ve got to know history, understand it, the good and the bad. It’s critical. So, that’s why, hey, you might see a swastika at a gun show, and it is nothing to do with having any type of support for that political philosophy. It’s the opposite. You know, when our boys came back from fighting the war, they brought back war trophies, souvenirs that they took from the enemy. It’s a source of pride. That’s the same thing today. These are the equivalent of drinking from the skulls of your enemy, right? You have this stuff. They were defeated. It is history, and it stands for the victory. So, keep that in mind. It’s a very interesting article that you may want to check out on that topic.

Evan Nappen 28:09
Now, I received a letter. I love the letters that I get, and I appreciate when listeners send them. This is from Ken regarding selling firearms. Ken says, Evan, is it still legal to sell your firearms through an FFL

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with a NICS check to other individuals? I heard some stuff that they were trying to keep people from selling their firearms or severely limiting you in doing so.

Evan Nappen 28:36
The answer that is, yes, you can. You’re required to. If you’re going to sell a firearm, you have to go through a dealer. The only exception for a private sale is to your immediate family members. If it’s not to an immediate family member, then it has to go through an FFL. But it’s perfectly legal, and that, in fact, is the path for doing it by. You have to go through an FFL. It’s the legal method required unless it’s an immediate family member. But even if it is an immediate family member, you still have to do the paperwork. You just don’t have to go through a dealer. You need a Firearms ID card and Certificate of Eligibility on a long arm, or a pistol purchase permit for any handgun, etc. You still have to do the paper for the family member. You just don’t have to go through a dealer. But with anybody else, it has to go through a dealer. Thanks for your question. Ken.

Evan Nappen 29:37
Now, this letter is from David. David says regarding more fun with New Jersey’s crazy laws. Hi Evan, thanks for all the great content. Well, my pleasure. In my community, it’s not uncommon for people to have a small synagogue in some room of their home, and I’d like to understand how New Jersey’s crazy carry laws apply to the following complex setup. My neighbor’s home has a sun porch with an independent entrance from the side yard. Every Friday night, neighbors gather there for Sabbath services. The side door is unlocked, and the sun porch is, “open to the public”, in a sense that just like a stand-alone synagogue, there’s no requirement for membership or sign up or invitation to come to Sabbath services. Just walk in.

Evan Nappen 30:29
So, right away, if we’re looking at the private property exemption, then the sensitive place private property exemption makes it clear that if it’s private property, but it’s open to the public, then that’s not a sensitive place where it becomes prohibited. So, here being open to the public, it is okay. There is no sensitive place on houses of worship. House of worship is not a stand-alone sensitive place anyway. So, if it’s open to the public and it’s a house of worship, they’re not sensitive places. They’re not restricted so you don’t have a problem.

Evan Nappen 31:12
Then he goes on and says, to make it more interesting, my neighbor’s wife is a physical therapist, and her office is accessible from the garage entrance. If you walked from the sun porch to the den, you could then enter a physical therapy office, which is presumably a healthcare facility where carry is prohibited. If it matters, the facility is closed on the Sabbath and has by-appointment-only office hours. Can a PTC holder carry into a synagogue sunroom as a public place, or is the neighbor’s permission required? Does the attached physical therapy office matter?

Evan Nappen 31:45
As long as you are not going in the healthcare facility part, then that doesn’t make the other part a problem. Of course, it still could be a legal issue whether a physical therapist is, in fact, a healthcare facility. But just to err on the side of caution and assume it is, just do not go into the healthcare facility

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portion, because that’s how the sensitive places work. So, for example, you can’t carry at a dispensary, but if you go in, meaning a pharmacy, but if you go into CVS, as long as you don’t go to the pharmacy part, you’re okay. If you go into a mall and there’s a school in the mall, you can go in the mall, but not in the school part. So, this is the key and that’s how it works here on this complex issue. So, open to the public. No problem. Now, if you happen to get permission as well to carry, well, that’s even double coverage if it was ever claimed to be private property. Because private property, if you get the permission, that’s good too. But this is open to the public. So, in reality, the permission is not required under the sensitive place law.

Evan Nappen 33:09
There’s another letter on a similar basis from Michael regarding PTC to private school. He says, I have a PTC, and I own a trade school. I was told I cannot carry at my business because it is a school and furthermore, the landlord would have to allow if I was able to. So, is that accurate? Well, if the trade school is your place of business, then there is the place of business exemption under 39-6 that exempts the sensitive place right out of the box. Since it’s a place of business that you own, you’re exempted to carry at your place of business. Under the sensitive places, the school, if you have permission from the person who’s in charge, which is you, because you also own it, you’re okay there. So, you can carry in your place of business. I would assume and hope that you have some proof that it’s your place of business, maybe a lease, or other thing, that it is your place of business and such. But then, you fall under that exemption for the place of business, and that’s how it works.

Evan Nappen 34:32
Okay, this week’s GOFU. This week’s GOFU is a wraparound back to what we discussed at the beginning of the show. The GOFU is to make sure you have a gun lawyer when you’re dealing with a gun matter. Unfortunately, what AJJ had to go through here is because this attorney obviously didn’t know what they were doing, wasn’t prepared and went into this.

Louis Nappen 35:03
Where they didn’t object. Didn’t object.

Evan Nappen 35:08
Didn’t have a good objection. Talk about a GOFU. That’s the GOFU. So, make sure whatever legal subject you’re dealing with, that your lawyer knows that subject and is briefed, is immersed, and understands your case and is there, guarding and protecting your rights and standing up for your rights. Not just your Second Amendment rights, but your due process rights, to make sure there’s fundamental fairness in those hearings. Because without it, it can have dire ramifications. It can ruin your reputation. It can have escalation of further denials, etc. There’s a lot of consequences for that GOFU. Make sure your lawyer knows what they’re doing. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens. And, Lou, thanks for coming on the show.

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Speaker 3 36:20
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E198_TransciptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 197-Warning! Keystrokes are logged on all gun permit applications.Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 197SUMMARY KEYWORDS

law, firearm, unconstitutional, new jersey, new jersey’s, gun, colt, challenge, references, keystroke, guidelines, judge, jersey, decision, assault, ban, applications, listed, substantially, modern sporting rifle

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, you know, I love doing this show. But this show is not just my voice, it’s also your voice. The reason I say that is I get a lot of great letters, emails, and such, from my beloved listeners. And I mean that sincerely. Often, these letters reveal things that need to be broadcast out to everybody, and it leads to discoveries of things that are just, oh, my God, kind of a moment. And that’s something I have to share with you today. Something extremely important that every New Jersey gun owner needs to know, and I bet you don’t know this. What I’m going to tell you, you do not know. Because even I didn’t know it, and I just live and breathe this stuff all day long. I didn’t know this, and it is a bit scary. It is yet another example of our loss of privacy and how Big Brother is spying on us. There are many lessons to take away from what I’m going to tell you next.

Evan Nappen 01:31
So, here is an excellent letter that I received from Greg. Basically, I’m just going to paraphrase. I’m just going to tell you what the story is. So, Greg applied for a PTC in Jersey, and one of his references was his buddy, Mike. What he did is what most of us do. You ask your friends to be references. When you do your application for your carry permit, you tell your references. You always want to make sure your references know. So, when you put in the app online, they’re ready to get the email, and they do the reference pretty quickly. Push the button and send it off. That way the references don’t delay you in the processing of your license. You always want to make sure in advance that your references are on your side and good to go because that can cause a problem.

Evan Nappen 02:43
Of course, one of his really great friends here was doing it, and he was absolutely 100 percent, no problem. But what happened was Mike, who basically wanted to play a practical joke, a prank on his good friend, which is something good friends do often. Right? Especially guys. Guy friends like to bust each other’s chops when they can and that’s all good. That’s what keeps a relationship, a good bromance together. Right? All good. So, what prank did Mike do? Well, what Mike did was when he got the reference email from the State, it asks, is there any reason why you would not endorse the above named firearms applicant to be issued a permit? He checked yes, and then where it said why? He wrote because he’s crazy. Then he took a picture of it with his cell phone so he could text that to his

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buddy, Greg. Then he wiped that out. He erased it. He erased it, and then put the no. There was no reason he wouldn’t and then submitted it with a positive supportive reference.

Evan Nappen 03:20
Well, lo and behold, Mike ends up getting a call about his unsubmitted answer. He gets a call from the authorities investigating it, and he tells him hey, it was a prank. And buddy, Greg, is like saying this person he knows. The police tell him that his keystrokes are logged so they had to investigate before approving the application. Folks, keep in mind, this is the big news. Anything you type when doing online applications to the Government, your keystrokes are logged. That’s right. Big Brother is watching your every keystroke, my friends, and I’m sure it’s not just on applications for a carry permit in New Jersey. Any of these online applications, especially anything you might deal with any agency in the Government. Keep in mind that your keystrokes are most likely being logged. This apparent report of the logged keystrokes was what the Government had, and they had to “investigate” over something that was not even submitted.

Evan Nappen 05:55
Yeah, it’s kind of scary stuff when you think about the intrusion and the overwatch taking place on us. So, it is really important to be vigilant and to know these things. To be aware. Knowledge is power. This is a knowledge element that I bet none of you knew, and now you do know it. So, keep it in mind. When you’re filling out any of these Government applications, don’t screw around. Don’t joke around. Make sure the information you’re putting in is exactly what you’re intending to submit. It probably pays to write out separately, completely separately, from your application. Probably on paper, like old school, what you’re going to say before you even type it to protect yourself. Because who knows what some Government bureaucrat may see and then misinterpret or take out of context, or who knows what. It’s easy enough just to have a typo, straight out have a typo, and then correct it. Now you’re subjected to what? Investigation. Put on a special list. Having licenses denied. Further investigated. Put in a big file. What? Who knows! But they’re watching you. New Jersey’s online gun permit application apparently has keystroke logging being done. It seems like it may be a privacy invasion, but then again, maybe not. I don’t know.

Evan Nappen 08:00
I couldn’t find anything specifically prohibiting this. I did see some case law that allowed it if one had, arguably, a warrant to place a keystroke logging device in somebody’s computer. And that’s kind of an older case. But now, when you just go online, the keystroke logging begins automatically? Shouldn’t we at least get a warning that all keystrokes are being logged? Shouldn’t it let you know? Like when you call a place and they say, “this phone call is being recorded so that we may improve our service to you.” You know, whatever the line they give, but at least they give you notice the line is being recorded, right? Shouldn’t there be a warning that keystroke logging is taking place on any kind of online submissions? You know, if you want to talk about new laws, if you want to talk about laws that can protect people, there’s a federal law that should be passed. I’m not one to push laws. We’ve got enough of them. But here’s one that can actually be useful to protect our privacy and require notice if there is keystroke logging taking place. So, you’re aware of that big eye watching you. I don’t know if that big eye is there in a pyramid or not. But sometimes you start worrying about it. I mean, it’s kind of crazy, right? But here you go. An actual case. An actual experience.

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Evan Nappen 09:39
It is Gun Lawyer that has the privilege of bringing it to all of your attention. Make sure your friends know about it as well, and they listen to the show. If you hear these kinds of things or have questions, I welcome you to send me those emails. I read them. Believe me, this is how this kind of information can get out there because the Imperial Lamestream Media won’t. They don’t want to let you know this stuff, but I want you to know it. So, keep that in mind and stay vigilant.

Evan Nappen 10:17
I want to give you an interesting update regarding Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman and him coming to WeShoot. Now, there is actually an exciting update regarding that Shooters Edge Seminar with Lieutenant Colonel Hartman who is the Master Sniper from the IDF (Israel Defense Forces). He created the entire Firearms Training Program for the IDF. An amazing man. Amazing things he’s done. Including making the cover of the Soldier of Fortune magazine. They’ve gotten a fantastic response to him. He was going to be coming on August 9 to talk to folks, and you could meet him live and ask questions. You know about the sign up and many of you signed up. Well, here’s what’s going to be happening. That August 9th date where he’s just going to be at the range, the indoor range, with him talking, that’s not going to happen. If you did sign up, then you know. You’ve got an email explaining this, but I want folks to know. Because what is going to be happening, and this is what’s exciting, is they’re looking now to get an outdoor range. I believe they have one to accommodate the needs for the class where Lieutenant Colonel Hartman will actually instruct in live fire,. So, you’re not just getting the benefit of his instruction. You will be there shooting rifles at the range with Lieutenant Colonel Hartman. Because of this, the seminar has been postponed, and the details are going to be out there shortly.

Evan Nappen 12:21
If you want to continue by the way of the online portion, you can still go to elitemarksman.com and use the GUNLAWYER code to still get that $100 off, and you’ll be able to attend that seminar. As soon as I get the dates and when it gets worked out, I’ll let you know. This way, it’ll be even better, even more exciting, even more fun, even more instructive. So, this is going to be what the next level is. If you are interested in this event, go to WeShoot’s website, weshootusa.com, and you can sign up there. You can get in on elitemarksman.com. Make sure you do. This is actually even better, and I’m sure not going to miss it. I wanted to make sure you’re aware of that. By the way, if you need a great place to shoot, go to WeShoot. It’s an indoor range right there in Lakewood, New Jersey. It is in Central Jersey, right off the Parkway. Easy to get to with great, wonderful staff. Great place. My highest recommendation. That’s where I shoot as well. Go to WeShootUSA.com. Check them out. Go to the website. You can get your CCARE training there to get your carry. You can get all kinds of great courses and have a real top of the line range experience. You can rent guns and introduce others to shooting. Great place. A great resource. WeShootUSA.com.

Evan Nappen 14:18
Now, we’re going to be talking later in the show about a really interesting case that was fought by the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They were a participant in the recent decision that has created a Constitutional challenge that was successful as to AR-15s. I’m going to give you the details about how. This is just the first battle, by the way, folks. The state Association is there litigating in

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federal court on your behalf, on our behalf, challenging New Jersey’s idiotic, modern sporting rifle ban that they statutorily call an “Assault Firearm”, which is just a pejorative bullshit term for firearms that have been around for over 100 years. They’re also challenging the large capacity magazine ban which was also in the battle in this decision. We’ll talk about that, too. They’re challenging the Carry Killer Law, creating all these sensitive places and trying to eviscerate our ability to carry a handgun, even though we can get our carry permits now. It is a shall issue. It only took over 50 years for New Jersey, kicking and screaming, to finally have to issue them so that we no longer have to be victims, but can, in fact, be defenders. That fight is also continuing. So, you really need to be a member of the state Association. It’s anjrpc.org. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the NRA affiliate, and they are the umbrella organization of all the gun clubs in New Jersey. You can be an individual member, and you should be. Because not only will you be helping in the cause, but also you’ll be getting the email updates. You’ll know what’s going on down in Trenton and in the courts. You get a great printed newsletter. The best in the state on Jersey gun rights. And you’ll know that you’re part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 16:31
Additionally, you should have my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s the book used by everybody that wants to know about Jersey gun law, from the State Police Firearms Division down to the average gun owner. We’ve sold thousands and thousands of copies. It’s the 25th Anniversary Edition. The reason it’s so popular is it’s the only book that is out there to gives Q & A explanation of over 120 topics, in a question and answer format. New Jersey gun laws explained. Good luck trying to find a real good explanation of Jersey gun laws. But luckily, my book is there and that’s what it does. So, you need to get a copy of it. When you get your copy, scan the front QR code. Make sure you do that because you will, for free, be able to subscribe for the updates. And I don’t do anything else with that list. It stays private. But you’ll get updates and be able to access, for free, the archives. This is a free thing. It’s free to get the updates and free to access the archives, so that way your book stays current. So, if you want to get your copy of New Jersey Gun Law, which you should have, go to EvanNappen.com. My website, EvanNappen.com. When you go there, you’ll see the big orange book. Click it to order your book, and you’ll have it in a matter of days.

Evan Nappen 18:01
So, let’s talk about this amazing decision by the Federal Court on AR-15s. ANJRPC v. Platkin (https://reason.com/2024/08/01/a-federal-judge-reluctantly-concludes-that-new-jerseys-ar-15-ban-is- unconstitutional/) Now, keep in mind, the entire so-called “Assault Firearm” statute was challenged in federal court, and it’s been a lengthy battle. It’s gone up to the Supreme Court. Bruen came about in between, and it was remanded back down. There was then discovery that delayed the case. Finally, finally, we get that lower court decision, which is, of course, just the first battle in the war going forward. But this first decision, which is currently stayed for 30 days pending an appeal, the stay means it’s not effective yet, but it might become effective if the stay is not continued. But the bottom line is this. The Federal judge ruled that New Jersey’s AR-15 ban is unconstitutional. That’s right. The first crack in New Jersey’s idiotic, modern sporting rifle ban has taken place. Because even this judge, who in the opinion makes it clear that he has no love for modern sporting rifles, admits he is constrained by the Supreme Court’s decision in whether or not such a law is Constitutional. So, this is now going to continue in the

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challenge. We need the entire “Assault Firearm” law found unconstitutional because it is. This is progress.

Evan Nappen 19:57
Now, in the same decision, he denied that the large capacity magazine, what we call the standard capacity magazine, prohibition is unconstitutional. We flat out believe that he’s wrong and that part of his decision was just mistaken. That’s why the appeal is ongoing. We’re looking to expand on the success and reverse on the denial of the magazine challenge. We have excellent grounds, legal argument. As we start getting higher and higher in the chain, it means that New Jersey’s “Assault Firearm” ban, and large capacity ban have one foot in the grave. I know in my heart that when it eventually reaches the Supreme Court, no way will it stand up as Constitutional. But until then, the battle ensues.

Evan Nappen 21:09
Certain questions have arisen from the judge’s decision. On one hand, it seems like he only legalized, so to speak, Colt AR-15s. Yet, he references through the opinion AR-15s. I want to explain to you what my view is here. Now, I want you to know that this is my view. It is how I’m going to be using it and approaching it in all the battles we have ongoing with clients criminally charged with AR-15s. Having their licenses and their gun rights revoked because they had AR-15s and all that. It is extremely useful, and we’re going to be going at it. I honestly cannot see how it can only be limited to the Colt AR-15. Let me tell you why.

Evan Nappen 22:11
Let me explain it. So, keep in mind New Jersey’s “Assault Firearm” law was passed in 1990, and it became effective in 1991. When it became effective, there were five parts to the definition of “Assault Firearm”. It’s actually one of the most poorly written definitions in criminal law anywhere, anywhere. It’s just so absurd how open ended and ridiculous it was. Early on, I had a case. The name of the case was Merrill. Mr. Merrill was charged under the assault firearm law with having an MAK-90. This was in Monmouth County, and I brought a challenge on his criminal charge, alleging that it was unconstitutional. This was back in the early ’90s. Pretty early after the law had come in. It was after the 1994 Crime Bill – Federal.

Evan Nappen 23:25
I argued to the court, not the Second Amendment at that time, because we didn’t have all the case law in the Supreme Court. We didn’t have Heller. We didn’t have McDonald, and we didn’t have Bruen. What we had was a lousy case where it was decided that the Second Amendment had no application to New Jersey. It was Burton versus Sills. However, I approached it from another avenue. I said that the law was unconstitutionally vague and overbroad because of the second part of the law, which was the “substantially identical” section. The first part is a laundry list about 67 individual guns, but the second part is any gun that is “substantially identical” to the above. The late great Judge Michael Farren in Monmouth County found that it was unconstitutional because a citizen could not know what substantially identical means. The words themselves are contradictory. Substantially means almost, and identical means exact. How can it be almost exact? It’s either exact or not. Even if we somehow try to interpret what guns are banned and what aren’t, it didn’t make any sense for anyone to be able to try

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to know how to conform their behavior so they wouldn’t be in trouble criminally and that makes a law unconstitutional. So, after I won that case, a gun group brought a challenge federally to try to annihilate the entire law based on how I’d won it in the criminal court. In that case, that’s when the Attorney General promulgated in 1996 guidelines to try to save the statute by saying what “substantially identical” means, by way the 1996 guidelines.

Evan Nappen 25:10
This is where it gets very interesting. You see, the Court, through its opinion, does say that the AR-15 is produced by several different manufacturers including FN, Ruger, Remington, Bushmaster, Rock River Arms, Wilson Combat, Barrett, Panther Arms, H&K, Lewis Machine, Olympic Arms, Palmetto State Armory, and Mossberg. Of course, even Smith and Wesson, but he failed to mention that and plenty of others. So, the judge said that the AR-15 provision itself is unconstitutional. Then he goes on and says that it’s essentially the Colt AR-15.

Evan Nappen 25:56
I’m going to read you the exact language in a moment. (U.S. District) Judge (Peter) Sheridan does find that the AR-15 qualifies as a weapon in common use. This is one of the things you have to establish. It’s in common use for lawful purposes like self-defense. That’s what Bruen said is covered and Heller. The judge said the plaintiffs have shown that AR-15s are well adapted for self-defense. He made it clear about the evidence being presented and that the AR-15 was well suited to self-defense. This is from the decision. Because it is light weight. It further goes on and says it has mild recoil, good ergonomics. It’s a weapon that is well suited to younger shooters, female shooters, and other shooters of a smaller statue. He talks further about it being a weapon of self-defense, which it is, and even brings out how it was used in several relatively high profile self-defense, self-defense events in Florida, Illinois, Texas, Pennsylvania and Oklahoma. So, it meets that part of the standard. And that’s not just Colt AR- 15s. That’s a whole variety of ARs.

Evan Nappen 27:21
He says, therefore, that the assault firearm law, the AR-15 provision, acts as a total prohibition of this firearm commonly used for self-defense, which are AR-15s in the home. And that’s all great stuff. But when you get into the decision itself, which you can see online, you’ll see that right away. (https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.anjrpc.org/resource/resmgr/legal_motions___briefs/doc_228_mag_aw_o pinion.pdf) It says, and I’ll read you right from decision. “For these reasons and those below, the AR-15 Provision of Assault Firearm Law is unconstitutional.” It’s right out of the box on Page Four of the decision. Right in the beginning, he makes it clear. Then he says on Page 6, “For the reasons enumerated below, the AR 15 Provision is unconstitutional.” He refers to the AR-15 throughout it.

Evan Nappen 28:19
Then, he says, “Relevant to the analysis here is the provision within the Assault Firearm Law regulating the ‘Colt AR-15″ (hereinafter, the AR-15 Provision).” (Page 7 of the decision) Then he puts a footnote though. He says, “For the reasons enumerated above, the Court limits its analysis of the constitutionality of N.J. Stat. Ann. 2C:39-1(w)(1) to the information that has been briefed.” The definitional part under (1)(w) where it has a laundry list of guns. In that laundry list of guns, when you

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actually look at the law under that section, you see it says “Colt AR-15 and CAR-15 series”. The judge doesn’t even deal with the CAR thing. He doesn’t know what it is, and he doesn’t want to get into it.

Evan Nappen 29:19
Therefore, some folks are saying well, is it just narrowly the (w)(1) provision, where it’s just Colt AR-15 and not all AR-15s? Even though the judge is talking broadly throughout his opinion on it. I’m going to tell you here’s how I interpret it. The Colt AR-15 is on the list as a listed gun with a named manufacturer. That’s correct. It’s there. That’s not in dispute. But you see, part (2) of the law, (w)(2) says, now the judge didn’t get into (w)(2) per se, but you can’t not get into (w)(2) once you have this ruling, because (w)(2) of New Jersey’s definition says, “Any firearm manufactured under any designation which is substantially identical to any of the firearms listed above.” And that was the original question that I dealt with in State v. Merrill. What the hell does that even mean? What is substantially identical? To what? Well, it’s to any of the firearms listed above.

Evan Nappen 30:40
Oh, so first of all, they have to be substantially identical to what? Firearm listed above. What is the firearm listed above when dealing with an AR-15 that you’re claiming is “substantially identical” to? Well, the Colt AR-15, of course. As I’m sure you know, the AR in AR-15 stands for “ArmaLite Rifle”. ArmaLite. Not assault rifle, like the dummies on the other side love to call it. No, no. Why ArmaLite? Because they developed it. Stoner ArmaLite. They developed it, and Colt got it. Colt AR-15. It was their manufacturer of the AR-15, of the ArmaLite Rifle-15. Now, that’s the law part of the statute, where it talks about the guns that are “listed above”.

Evan Nappen 31:50
But then, going back to the Merrill challenge, which was successful, and then Coalition V. Whitman where the big challenge to try to knock it out in federal court is based on the theory I utilized in Merrill. Then the Attorney General came in with the 1996 Guidelines to save the constitutionality. (https://www.nj.gov/lps/dcj/agguide/assltf.htm) Those Guidelines are what we’ve been living under. And it’s those Guidelines, where we come up with, where most people say, is that gun Jersey compliant? Does it have any of those offending features? Well, that’s coming from the Guidelines.

Evan Nappen 32:33
What do the Guidelines say when having to make that determination? It says, right there in the Guidelines (on Page 2), before you get to the specific offending features, “A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be ‘substantially identical,’ that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon . . .” That’s right in the guidelines, folks. A named assault weapon. “. . . if it meets the below listed criteria:” Aha. So, the statute under (w)(2) talks about “guns listed above.” The so-called Guidelines that were pulled out of the Attorney General’s ass and turned into a regulation to save the constitutionality says, it has to be a “named assault weapon.”

Evan Nappen 33:32
And what criteria did the Attorney General adopt? Where did these features come from? Well, they’re nowhere to be found in New Jersey’s actual law. Oh, God forbid, no. He gleaned them, verbatim, from the 1994 Federal Crime Bill definition of assault weapon, which is no longer on the books. It’s sunset. It

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went away in 2004. It was for ten years. That’s 1994 to 2004. Those are the very criteria that is no longer federal law and was not State law. Never has been. Remember, our assault firearm law passed in 1990. The Federal criteria that he’s using in the Guidelines didn’t even come about until 1994. So, you’re telling me that somehow our legislators had like crystal balls, and they knew that their unconstitutionally vague definition would be saved by a Federal law that would be passed four years later? I don’t think so. But it doesn’t matter because you know what? The Court bought it and said, okay, now we know what substantially identical means, and this is what it means. All right.

Evan Nappen 34:52
Well, if these Guidelines are what control, then it says it has to be a named firearm before we apply the offending features. I’m sure you know them by now, but I’ll review them with you. A folding stock or telescoping stock, a pistol grip, a bayonet mount, a flash suppressor or a threaded barrel, or a grenade launcher. I know all of you removed your grenade launchers from your assault firearm. So, I’m glad to hear that. But here’s the deal, folks. What applies to those criteria? Well, first, it has to be a semi- automatic firearm that has a detachable magazine and at least two of what I just told you. And what semi-automatic rifle? Aah, a “named assault weapon”. If the Government is saying that they’re “named assault weapon” is the only AR there, the AR, the classic of all classics, the Colt AR-15, well, guess what? That’s unconstitutional.

Evan Nappen 36:07
So, these are the battles that we’re going to have. Look, this has not been fully decided yet. This is not something you can say, hey, great, I can have an AR-15 now in New Jersey. No, you can’t do that yet. But I’m telling you how the groundwork has been laid. I’m showing you the issues and the arguments that we’re going to use, and more than what I’ve even told you, of course, is going to be used. But I’m laying out to you a very clear methodology here to see the crack in the armor of New Jersey’s absurd gun law that has turned thousands of law-abiding citizens into criminals. Ruined their lives. Destroyed them, their families, their fortunes, their freedom, and taken away their rights over a law that is absolute bullshit. Because a gun is a gun. And this is just stupid. Trying to distinguish it by some features is just a ploy, a salami tactic, to take rights, and do it one slice at a time. To try to boogeyman all black rifles. That’s what they do. That’s going to end. We’ve made substantial progress toward that end. And that, my friend, makes me very happy.

Evan Nappen 37:50
I have a question here really quick. It says, as a member of CJ rifle and pistol club, I occasionally take my 2020 NJ legal AR style rifle to the range. Is this gun still legal? Are there any semi-automatic rifles still legal in Jersey? Then he wants to know if we can get an addendum to the book. Well, of course, you get an addendum to the book. By going and scanning the front cover of the new book. And that’s where you get all the updates. Of course, you can take your “legal” AR to the range, because it’s Jersey legal. Transport it legally, take it to the range, and enjoy it. Shortly, we’ll be able to take guns that at the moment are not legal. I’m confident we will win this battle, fighting side by side with our brothers and sisters. So, this has been an interesting week to say the least.

Evan Nappen 38:55

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I want to tell you this week’s GOFU, and this week’s GOFU is a wraparound right to what we spoke about in the beginning of the show. Don’t mess around on your gun applications. As much as I like good jokes played on me by my good friends, and I get it. But it’s serious stuff with the gun licensing and the gun laws in New Jersey. Luckily, in this case, the individual got his carry, but what a hassle. What a problem. What a mess. So, the GOFU is take it seriously. Treat it seriously. You don’t want to cause complications for yourself or one of your best buddies, do you? So, it officially is a GOFU, but I will say that because of it, we did discover some truths here that we didn’t know. And that’s really the purpose of a GOFU. Don’t repeat mistakes that others have made. Learn from them, folks. This time we all learned from that GOFU. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 40:19
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E197_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 196-The US Secret Service Could Not Get an NJ Carry PermitAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 196SUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun, new jersey, law, place, carry permit, shot, requirements, handgun, secret service, rifle, foo, program, guns, firearm, book, bolt action rifle, idf, gun laws, political assassinations, revolver

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I’m sure you’ve been watching the news and following closely. I know I have. All the developments on the attempted assassination of President Trump. Of course, there’s lots of commentary and a severe lack of information out there, and it just makes the conspiracy theories run wild. It gets you thinking about all kinds of things. But I do want to point out some things that are in my wheelhouse that I’ve noticed, and things that I think my listeners of Gun Lawyer would appreciate.

Evan Nappen 01:04
First of all, I’d like to state that it appears that the Secret Service would not qualify to get a New Jersey carry permit. Why am I saying that? Well, if you watched the video of the female Secret Service Agent who could not reholster her handgun, it was embarrassing, to say the least. I mean, folks, I can take my handgun in and out of my holster all day long without looking, and I bet you can too. The fact is that in order to get a carry permit in New Jersey under Murphy’s Carry Killer law, remember you had to have certain training and that training originated as the John Wick training standards. That’s what we called it. Then we were able to get out of the Attorney General an agreement that focused on core competency that we call CCARE. Now the CCARE standard, actually CCARE, people ask what does it mean? It stands for Civilian Carry Assessment and Range Evaluation. So, you need to have your CCARE certification. But what are the requirements for CCARE for any civilian gun owner in New Jersey who wishes a carry permit? Well, the CCARE requirements are actually quite simple, quite direct, and something that any competent shooter should be able to demonstrate, and we’ve discussed it on the show.

Evan Nappen 02:51
But I want to review for you some of the key requirements of CCARE that would disqualify that Secret Service Agent which we all can watch on YouTube, on Facebook, on TikTok, all over. Watch that clip of whoever that woman is whose name has not been disclosed, who cannot reholster her gun, and why is that something? Well, one of the requirements under CCARE, and you can go right to the State Police website to download the qualification that you have to meet for the course. (https://nj.gov/njsp/firearms/pdf/CCARE_Protocol.pdf) Under 4. Course, Subsection d., it says, “To achieve a passing score of 80%, the participant must place a minimum of 40 shots within the border of a Q target silhouette during the untimed course of fire. The participant must also demonstrate safe

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handling throughout, including safe loading, unloading, drawing, and re-holstering.” Re-holstering is a requirement of CCARE. If you watch the video, that Secret Service Agent would not pass. It further states that, “i. On command, from a secured and concealed holster position, draw and fire five rounds. Holster a safe, decocked, if applicable, weapon.” Aaannnnttt. Secret Service fail. Then you repeat the string of fire twice, firing a total of 10 rounds. Reload if required and holster a safe, decocked, if applicable, weapon. At the end of the course of fire, clear all weapons, and holster a safe and empty weapon.

Evan Nappen 04:53
Oh, boy. So much for Secret Service qualifying for a civilian carry permit under New Jersey’s requirements. New Jersey even goes further and says you can have a substantially equivalent course, and it describes what that is. Under 5. Substantially Equivalent Courses, subsection d., it says. “The participant must demonstrate safe holstering and unholstering . . . ” You’ve got to do both during the shooting course. “. . . which must include safely drawing the weapon from a secured holster before firing at each of the required distances and re-holstering after completing the round.” So, as you can see, stressed throughout the CCARE is a requirement that the Secret Service Agent could not accomplish. Heh, that’s a real confidence builder, when it comes to protecting those folks that they’re assigned to protect, isn’t it? Oh, my God! It’s absolutely embarrassing. Embarrassing and it is something that just removes the confidence and faith that we might have in those folks who are assigned that critical task of protection.

Evan Nappen 06:34
So, there you go, but it doesn’t end there with some of the fallout from the attempted assassination. And that’s because the Democrats, and that’s who it is, it’s always Democrats. The Democrats have to do their blood dance anytime. You know their motto – let no tragedy go to waste. They start their blood dance, and there it was, in the hearing with the head of the Secret Service. Are they questioning about what the Secret Service did? Where the failures were? What needs to be improved? Did they get any real information out of that Secret Service Director? No, but it was used to grandstand on gun control, quote an assault firearm ban. That’s right. Never miss the opportunity.

Evan Nappen 07:36
For example, the Maryland Democrat Jamie Raskin decided to make this about a promotion of banning so-called assault weapons. Assault weapons. He used an AR-15. Oh, my God. One of those dreaded black guns with only one purpose — to kill hundreds of people. And, man, if we just ban those ARS, we’ll stop political assassinations, right? This scourge is a problem. It wasn’t the Secret Service’s fault. It’s not the fault of the agencies there who failed to stop this shooter. Failed to keep President Trump off the stage when they knew about somebody suspicious. Just because they saw somebody with a rifle. Just because their communication sucked. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It’s the AR-15, you see. And, of course, that’s how they have to push it. Even though according to FBIs own statistics, only 3% of all gun related homicides involve rifles of any kind, of any kind. But here what are we talking about? An attempted political assassination. So, hey, we must have quite a history of attempted and even successful political assassinations using semi-automatic rifles, right? So-called assault weapons, which are really nothing more than modern sporting rifles. But the antis never miss that opportunity to do their blood dance, to take advantage of the tragedy.

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Evan Nappen 09:45
Why don’t we take a little historical stroll through some of the most famous political assassinations and attempted assassinations? And let’s see what guns they used. Let’s start with a famous one. John F. Kennedy, right? The Kennedy Assassination. Lee Harvey Oswald. Now I know all the conspiracy theories, and we don’t have to get into grassy knolls and all that stuff. Basically, the understanding is that the bullet that killed Kennedy came from a bolt action rifle, an Italian Carcano of World War Two origin. Did you ever shoot a Carcano? I have Carcanos and let me just say something. I love Italian guns. Some of the finest shotguns, my Perazzi Italian shotgun is just magnificent craftsmanship. Berettas are just phenomenal guns. You look at all these wonderful Italian guns, and you can’t believe that they made the Carcano. Honestly, folks, it is one clunky bolt action rifle that I can’t imagine how that even came to be their gun. It is just not what you associate with fine Italian firearms. Let’s put it that way. That Carcano bolt action rifle is what Oswald allegedly used to get off three shots, which ended up killing President Kennedy. Not a semi-auto rifle.

Evan Nappen 11:36
How about Abraham Lincoln? What was Lincoln shot with? Was he shot with a semi auto? Was he even shot with a rifle by John Wilkes Booth? No. No, he was shot with a Deringer. Actually, the Deringer. The Henry Deringer of Deringers. The gun that’s named by the maker. Lincoln was shot in the head with a Deringer. Not a semi-auto. Not a rifle, but a handgun. A single shot, percussion, handgun. Okay, how about Martin Luther King? Martin Luther King was shot by James Earl Ray in 1968. Hey, there were lots of semi-auto rifles around in ’68, Carbines and M1 Garands. You name it, all out there. What was Martin Luther King assassinated with? A Remington 760 pump action .30-06. The classic deer rifle. That’s right. A classic deer rifle killed Martin Luther King.

Evan Nappen 12:46
Hey, let’s go way back to probably one of the most significant political assassinations in world history. That would be the Archduke Franz Ferdinand. He was shot by Gavrilo Princip, and what did Gavrilo shoot the Archduke with? Remember, this is the assassination that led to World War One, which itself led to World War Two. Was a semi-auto rifle used then in 1914? As a matter of fact, the date of that assassination is the exact date of this show, 90 years ago, June 28, 1914. What gun was used? A handgun. A FN Model 1910 in .380. That’s right. The handgun that essentially started World War One. How about Mahatma Ghandi? What was Gandhi shot with? He was shot with a Beretta, the Model 1934. The military handgun of the Italian Army. Germans even used some of them as well. It was a .380 handgun that killed Gandhi.

Evan Nappen 14:22
How about going back to America? Let’s look at some more President. How about President William McKinley? William McKinley was assassinated in 1901 by Leon Czolgosz. That’s right. Guess what Czolgosz shot and killed William McKinley with in Buffalo, New York, 1901? It led to Theodore Roosevelt becoming President. He used an Iver Johnson .32 revolver. That’s right. A .32 revolver handgun killed President William McKinley. What about President James Garfield? Garfield was shot by Charles Guiteau. He was hit twice by Guiteau. What did Guiteau use to assassinate President Garfield? Well, he used a Belgian made .44 caliber Bulldog revolver. I kid you not. A .44 Bulldog

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handgun, a revolver. How about a little more modern time? Well, how about Robert Kennedy? What was Robert Kennedy killed with? Well, Sirhan Sirhan shot him with an eight shot .22 Long Rifle Iver Johnson handgun. The Cadet model 55-A revolver. How about the attempted assassination of President Ronald Reagan? What did John Hinckley use? He used one of the cheapest revolvers ever made. A Rhom RG-14 .22 rimfire long rifle. The same caliber as Robert Kennedy’s assassin used. Do you know what Hinckley fired? He fired six shots out of a .22 revolver in 1.7 seconds. 1.7 seconds, six shots, .22.

Evan Nappen 16:39
When you look at any of the political assassinations or attempted political assassinations, guess what’s never been used before? A so-called assault firearm and never before an AR-15. But you see, the Democrats believe that this is the moment to demand an assault firearm ban because of the attempted assassination of President Trump. You know their propaganda. It just never ends. And it’s just so disgusting. Gun control, the last refuge of a scoundrel, and they are scoundrels. They just gaslight us and obscure and obstruct and divert. Man, it gets a little tiring at times, and I’m sure you’re tired of it as well.

Evan Nappen 17:40
Well, here’s something not to be tired about. And that is, there’s still time. There’s still a few more openings for you to meet me and, more importantly, Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman at WeShoot on August 9. Lieutenant Colonel Hartman is the Master Sniper of the IDF. He created the entire firearms training program for the IDF. If you heard the show with Lieutenant Colonel Hartman, it was great. He’s going to be there in person. You’ll get to meet him, and he will be teaching from his amazing course of the Elite Marksmanship Program. Now, he put together this program, the Elite Marksmanship Program, and as Gun Lawyer listeners, you can take advantage of this event. If you go to www.elitemarksman.com and you use the code, GUNLAWYER, all caps GUNLAWYER, you get $100 off the amazing training program that he has there. It includes the official IDF targets, all the training, his amazing experience and instruction. He will be following up on that program at this event. So, if you purchase the program and use that promo code to save $100, you can come to this event for free. There’s no charge to meet and see him.

Evan Nappen 19:27
He’s going to be teaching how to implement the program. He’ll be answering questions. It’ll be teaching in the same way the IDF does it. So, if you don’t purchase the program, you won’t be able to attend the event. Make sure you sign up at elitemarksman.com. You can go to weshootusa.com. We Shoot is the fantastic range in Lakewood. Once you purchase the program at www.elitemarksman.com, you can register at weshootusa.com for the program event. Select the Sharpshooter’s Edge: Mastering Rifle Marksmanship with Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman. We need to get at least 100 people to buy the program so he will do this free seminar. I believe we’re almost there. So, there’s still a chance for you to get in on this. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity. You’re going to get phenomenal training, and you’re going to meet a hero and a legend. And I’m not talking about me. I’m talking about him. So, check out weshootusa.com. WeShoot is a fantastic range, right there in Lakewood, New Jersey. You can get your training and where you can get CCARE and pass it, unlike the Secret Service. They’ll get

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you what you need to get your carry permit, continue your training and have a great resource of a great range in Lakewood, New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 21:00
Remember those CCARE requirements were done by negotiation and with fighting, in effect, fighting without fighting, by getting the Attorney General to get rid of the unbelievably difficult requirements that they had first promulgated. This was done through the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. I did help that take place so that we could get the core competency requirements and CCARE instead of the unbelievably difficult course that preceded it. And that was through the efforts of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, a proud sponsor of this show. You need to be a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They fight for our rights. They’re the number one gun rights defender in New Jersey. It’s anjrpc.org. Join. You’ll be glad you did. You’re going to get email alerts about all the shenanigans taking place in Trenton, any changes to the law, updates on the litigation. They’re going at them in federal court. The state of New Jersey. They’re fighting, as we speak, for our right to have modern sporting rifles, to have standard capacity magazines, fighting the Carry Killer law and its idiotic sensitive places, creating victim disarmament zones. So, check out anjrpc.org and make sure you’re a member.

Evan Nappen 22:34
While you’re at it, get a copy of my book. This is where I shamelessly promote my book New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a question and answer format. It is your handbook and guide through the ridiculous matrix of New Jersey gun laws. With that book, you can help keep yourself out of jail, out of trouble, and remain a law-abiding gun owner. Despite the efforts of New Jersey creating traps for you to fall into. You don’t want to become a GOFU, my friends. Don’t be a GOFU. One of the great ways to avoid GOFUs is to know the law and not make those mistakes. So, if you’d like to get your copy of the Bible of Jersey gun law, New Jersey Gun Law, by yours truly, go to EvanNappen.com. That’s right, EvanNappen.com. That’s my website. You’ll see the big orange book there, click it to order it, and you’ll have it in a matter of days. When you get the book, scan the front cover for that QR code, and it’ll send you right to the subscriber database for free. I do not distribute that list to anybody. You will get alerts for law changes, book updates and access to all the archives for any updates so that your book stays current. It stays current. It’s a labor of love. Get your copy of my book today and stay safe.

Evan Nappen 24:02
So, you know I looked at some great letters. I love the letters, the Ask Evan letters, and I got some really interesting questions that I want to talk about. Of course, the GOFU is at the end of the show that we all love. Before I even get to that, I just want to point out a little commentary here on a New Mexico judge. (https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/nm-judge-uses-slavery-oppression-of-native-americans-to- justify-waiting-period/) This New Mexico judge has decided to use the prior law regarding, and we’re talking way, way back, prior laws where gun bans, we’re talking prior to the Civil War, banned slaves and Native Americans from having guns. They are using that to justify a modern day waiting period. Isn’t that wonderful? Don’t you love it when they rely on blatantly racist gun laws to help promote modern racist gun laws? Make sense, huh? That’s not exactly what the Bruen decision had in mind when talking about text, history and tradition of gun laws. But that just shows you how desperate they

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are. In order for a gun law to remain Constitutional, a modern gun law, you have to show a history of precedent, and it’s basically incredibly difficult for them to do it. They’re so damn desperate that a Federal judge in New Mexico is using the laws that prohibited slaves and laws against Native Americans from owning guns to justify it.

Evan Nappen 25:53
Now, of course, this argument is ridiculous. And this argument cannot fly. It fails to keep in mind that these laws, these racist laws of the past, were prior to the 13th and 14th Amendments. Prior to that. They want to use those laws to justify the modern laws that do the same thing just in a different bottle. It’s the same old wine but in a new bottle. That’s what’s going on. So, I look at this and go, man, it just demonstrates their desperation. But it is really astounding when you see the courts and the justice system relying on racist laws to justify current law. Yeah, it shows you how much they hate the Second Amendment. They hate it so much that they have abandoned their principles on fighting racism, to try to keep the law on the books. Astounding. But then again, there is no level low enough that they won’t go to it appears when it comes to trying to keep an anti-Second Amendment law still on the books.

Evan Nappen 27:21
Hey, I received a letter here, and this is from James. James has a pretty straightforward question. He says, regarding Motor Vehicle Inspection Facilities. Can I carry concealed with a New Jersey CCP? Oh, that’s a new one. Usually, it’s a CCW. A CCP is like something left over from Russia, maybe. I don’t know. But I believe you mean a carry permit, which we’ve call a PTC (Permit to Carry). While getting my car inspected? The answer is no, you can’t. Because if you’re getting your car inspected at a Government facility, then New Jersey makes that a sensitive place. However, if you’re getting it inspected at a private facility, well, that’s not a Government facility for the administration of Government there. A Government facility. So, I would advise you not to carry if you’re going through a State inspection station. But if it’s just a privately-owned car repair shop, etc. that’s open to the public, then that’s not a sensitive place. Thanks, Jamie, for a good question.

Evan Nappen 28:46
Christian writes and asks. Not sure if this is where people ask you questions that you answer on your podcast. But I have a question. Well, it is where you people ask. So, thank you. I own an AR-15, he’s talking some variant I’m sure, and would like to swap out the stock. The current stock was pinned at my local FFL when I bought my rifle. My question is, can I use a stock lock instead of drilling and pinning the new stock? The law says it cannot be an adjustable stock, but it doesn’t say it must be pinned. The modern stock locks make it so it’s not adjustable without a tool. I simply want to maintain the ability to make adjustments, which I don’t think is too much to ask for. It’s like having the car dealership weld your seat in place before you can drive the car.

Evan Nappen 29:32
Well, here’s the problem with any of this stuff. New Jersey’s so-called let’s say, “offending features” of the New Jersey Attorney General Opinion from 1996 interpreted the term “substantially identical”. Well, that telescoping stock is what’s listed there, and telescoping or adjustable, we’re going to get into big battles as to whether this stock qualifies or not. And although I could argue why it shouldn’t, the other side’s going to argue why it should. If it ends up at trial, the folks that are going to decide are going to

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be 12 people on a jury. Remember, those 12 people, who are not smart enough to avoid jury duty, are going to somehow have to figure out whether this gun is a problem or not. So, listen, just don’t go there. It’s not worth it. I understand. Until we get it declared unconstitutional, if you have a gun made compliant by the dealer, who sold it to you in New Jersey as a compliant gun, keep that paperwork and don’t modify it in any way. Because if that gun is ever called into question, you have the absolute fact and proof to demonstrate that you acquired it as compliant, made compliant by a dealer who’s licensed, a New Jersey retail dealer and FFL ,transferred you that gun. That’s going to be the biggest insurance policy to you not becoming another victim of New Jersey gun laws. So, I would advise not to mess around with that. Thanks for the great question.

Evan Nappen 31:32
Gavin writes, greetings, Evan. I enjoyed listening to Episode 193, “Storing Guns Outside Your Home”, but I wanted to find out the legality of a house of worship to have individual lockers for congregants to store firearms when they are attending services. We have people who walk to and from to attend services but are not part of our security team. Can we have lockers on site for them to use while they are on site? Okay, Gavin, let me explain here. The security team, if they’re SORA (Security Officer Registration Act), they get sensitive place exemption for the educational facility in a house of worship. But the general congregational part that’s open to the public is not a sensitive place. So, individuals who are going to the service and are in the public portion of the house of worship are allowed to carry concealed, loaded on their person with a carry permit. They’re allowed to carry their gun there. What they would not be allowed to do is actually lock them in lockers at this place, because there’s no exemption for that. But there is an exemption to have that loaded and concealed gun on their person. So, the last thing you want is lockers there. Now, if they have to secure their gun, then they want to do it by way of the car where they’re secured in their vehicle. If they don’t have a vehicle because they walk there, then they need to keep their gun concealed loaded on their person, but not go into a sensitive area on that property, which would be the educational section, like the school part of it. The general part is not a sensitive place. The carry permit would allow them to carry there because it’s open to the public, and it’s not a sensitive place. So, Gavin, I’m glad you sent that. Thanks. Very good question.

Evan Nappen 33:47
Now we have a question from Jeff. Jeff says Mr. Nappen. I’m hoping you’ll be able to answer this on your podcast. I received a jury notice. I’m a couple of months out, but I wanted to ask if this is a firearm related matter, am I able to use Heller, McDonald and Bruen doctrines of SCOTUS during deliberations, or am I subject to the People’s Republic of New Jersey rules? He’s a member of CNJFO, ANJRPC, GOA and NRA. I’m glad you’re a member of all those organizations, and it’s great that you belong to as many pro-gun rights organizations as you can belong to because they all do great work. But as far as your question goes, when it comes to jury duty, the rule is the judge tells you the law and you have to determine the facts. Once you’re deliberating though, in a jury, you deliberate as a juror, you can discuss whatever you wish to discuss. But the law is going to be given to you by the judge, and you’re supposed to determine the facts. You still can have your own viewpoint and your own opinion, that is for sure. But the law is given by the judge, and you determine the facts. That’s how it has to work.

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Evan Nappen 35:13
The problem I find is individuals that are, let’s just say pro-gun, that understand guns, that recognize the things we talk about all the time in the show. They get jury duty, and they gleefully let it be known what their position is on guns so they can get struck from the jury by anti-gun prosecutors. Please don’t do that. If you’re there as a juror, you tell the truth when questions are asked, and you serve honorably and improperly. But we need more folks that understand guns and understand the reality of firearms on juries and not to have them struck because of that. I’ve seen them try to use different techniques to try to isolate the pro-gun folks. They really can’t necessarily get away with saying, are you pro-gun? Are you anti-gun or are you pro-gun? But what they’ll say is, do you have any stickers on your car of any sort? Ah, you see, now they want to know your political views. But they ask it when asking jurors, what stickers might you have on your car? So, beware of having any stickers on your car that may, in one way or another, be found to be offensive to somebody. It’s quite a thing. But there are those efforts made to actually keep individuals that believe and understand the Second Amendment off juries. When it comes to the Constitutional aspects, well, discuss the whole case with the jurors should you be having to deliberate. Do it fairly. Do it honestly. That’s what jurors need to do.

Evan Nappen 37:18
Hey, let me tell you about this week’s GOFU. Remember, the GOFU, which is the Gun Owner Fuck Up, and I don’t want any of you to ever be a GOFU. The GOFU is a very expensive lesson learned by somebody else that you get to learn for free by listening to the show. This week’s GOFU, you know, these are real cases, actual things I’ve dealt with. And man, I just have to tell you. This is a classic GOFU, and I’ve seen it repeated before. Here we go. An individual is stopped for a seatbelt. Yes. A seatbelt. You know, the pretext. I mean, that’s really what the seatbelt law is all about. Did you think it’s really about being safe? Because there are a lot of arguments that sometimes wearing safety belts actually can cause you to have more injuries and death. And sometimes not. I mean, look, people should be able to choose, but in New Jersey, you can’t choose because the law says you have to wear your safety belt. I’m not going to get into a debate whether that is good or bad or not.

Evan Nappen 38:23
But I’ll tell you one thing. It’s used as a pretext to stop you and to give you a summons or to pull you over becomes that excuse to do that. A reason to do that. When that happens, anytime you’re pulled over, anytime you’re stopped, you now have the risk potential of becoming a victim of New Jersey gun laws. If there’s a gun in the car, if there’s a gun on your person, anything to do with firearms. Yep. Now that stops. So, the first thing you want to do if you’re stopped, of course, is cooperate. Show your credentials. You know, registration, insurance, and your driver’s license. You have to do that. It’s required. And remember, if you are carrying, there is a Duty to Disclose. We’ve reviewed that. You must immediately tell the officer that you have a handgun on your person, and you must immediately show your carry permit. All that’s true. But you do not have to consent to a search. So, don’t consent to searches.

Evan Nappen 39:35
The number one problem, number one thing, I see is consent to a search. Why consent to a search? Best case is nothing’s going to be found, and you’ll be exactly where you were if you didn’t consent to the search. But if you do consent to the search, now you’re allowing a fishing expedition to take place at

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your expense. Suddenly, the jacket found in the car that belonged to your son’s friend that you gave a ride to, had some contraband that you didn’t even know was there? Now, you’re going to have to deal with that. Or you thought you were in conformance with how you were transporting your firearm. But surprisingly, you weren’t. Because there was another gun in the car, who knows what? Why are you opening yourself up? Never consent. Why are you giving up your Fourth Amendment right? Why? Don’t do it. I can’t be any clearer than that. It’s your Fourth Amendment. Do not consent to searches.

Evan Nappen 40:41
Then to compound it, after something is found like that, then you are read Miranda, and you waive your Fifth Amendment. You waive your right to counsel, and you talk to them without an attorney. You shouldn’t be saying anything. And you’re doing it without an attorney? So, what just happened in that scenario? You gave up your Fourth Amendment right. You gave up your Fifth Amendment right. You gave up your Sixth Amendment right. And now you are in a position where you’re having to deal with something that maybe never even would have taken place. Maybe that arrest, that problem, that issue would never have taken place if you had simply stood on your rights. Or if it still took place, the fact that you did not waive your rights gives me the ability to raise the violation of your rights to help defend your case. Folks, the biggest GOFU, of all the GOFUs out there, is waiving your Constitutional rights. So, please, don’t do that. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 42:12
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E196_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 195-What the media will NEVER tell you!Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 195SUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun, gun rights, new jersey, handgun, exemption, law, shoot, president trump, gun laws, vance, homeless, firearm, evan, place, bb gun, carry, question, vehicle, firearms, lawyer

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Well, we sure had a hell of a week that’s for sure. I mean, history is being made before our very eyes, and, of course, we’ve been watching. I’m sure all of you have been watching as events unfold. And, you know, as gun people as we are, we’re always interested in hardware being employed at any time, good or bad. One of the things some folks have asked is, does anyone know what gun the deceased would be assassin was using? They’re not making a big deal about the specific model, but I did discover it. This is from an article on Fox News where it talks about the FBI gaining access to the would-be killer’s, well, he is a killer. He killed the great man there who was a fire chief and beloved family man and wounded two others seriously. (https://www.foxnews.com/us/fbi-has-gained-access-thomas-matthew-crooks-phone-trump- assassination-attempt)

Evan Nappen 01:26
So, the firearm that he used, by the way, was a DPMS AR-15 type gun, if anyone’s wondering what it was. It was a DPMS. And so, what? AR is the most popular firearm, modern sporting rifle in America. So, it’s not a surprise that a gun that’s popular, that’s in such common use, can be used for good or bad. It’s not the gun; it’s the person. Here we see this person who almost took out President Trump and thank God he didn’t. Instead, we really see what an opposite effect is taking place. We saw what has to be the ultimate cognitive tests that anyone has ever undertook, which is, how do you react after being shot in an attempted assassination? And what did we see? We saw President Trump rising up after being wounded by the round. He rose up, and he held up his fist. His cheek has that blood like war paint, and what does he do there with the American flag behind him? That iconic picture that will live on forever. Even going on the cover of Time Magazine. Even they have to put that photo on their cover, as much as they’re a bunch of lefties. And what is it? What does it say? It says fight. Keep fighting. Fight no matter what. Talk about inspiration.

Evan Nappen 03:37
You know, when folks face danger, when you’re gripped with that moment of extreme peril and fear, they say that people have essentially three reactions, although sometimes it’s reduced down to two. It’s known as fight or flight. I’m sure you’ve heard that. But it’s actually fight, flight, or fear; a fight, flight or freeze from the fear. Fight, flight, or freeze. And what you saw there, without staging, without teleprompters, without prescreening and preparation, as his opponent has to do to even get through an

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event, you saw President Trump react in the most inspiring and amazing way. And that was a pure fight reaction. And that was his message. We have to fight. We have to fight for our rights. We have to fight so that we can protect, not just our Second Amendment rights, but protect America, and I know that you realize that.

Evan Nappen 04:57
These are things that we’ve been reflecting on, but one of the key things, I think of great interest that you may not be hearing a lot about and that I want to share with you is the vice presidential choice by President Trump, which was to pick J.D. Vance. Now J.D. Vance is a young man, relatively speaking, and he was chosen by President Trump. It’s an amazing pick by the President because if you know his backstory, that he actually wrote a book about called Hillbilly Elegy and that book became a movie, Hillbilly Elegy. It became a movie. You can watch it today on Netflix, and now it’s back in the top 10 on Netflix, even though I think the movie didn’t come out till 2020. But the deal is, you know, he comes from Appalachia. That’s his roots. And it’s a great movie to watch, to really see this individual that came up from this poor, but very prideful family. Just a difficult culture to excel from, you know, the challenges that that presents. He did that very thing and dealt with many problems in his environment, and it’s a lot to admire about him. He joined the Marines. Then he went to Yale Law School and graduated top of his class, and he ended up being very successful in business.

Evan Nappen 07:00
One of the things that is of great importance to us is, well, what is his stand on what’s near and dear to us? What is J.D. Vance’s position when it comes to gun rights? I have an article here from guns.com, and it’s called, “Where does J.D. Vance, Trump’s VP Pick, Stand on Gun Rights?” This article is by Chris Eger, and it’s really great. (https://www.guns.com/news/2024/07/16/trump-vice-president-jd- vance-pro-gun) J.D. Vance is a stalwart pro-gun, pro-gun rights advocate. He is absolutely. We couldn’t ask for anyone better. And keep in mind, his pick, as vice president is, of course, to carry the torch even after President Trump. Just to highlight some really fascinating things about J.D. Vance, specifically on his stand on gun rights. Well, first of all, according to the article, by the way, he grew up with guns. His grandmother, he called Mamaw, was really this incredibly strong woman who forcefully was able to, in effect, save J.D. and put him on the right path to success. But she, who kept him on the straight and narrow, was a Democrat. She was known as, you know, a blue dog Democrat. She herself owned 19 handguns and had a deep Christian faith. This is where he got his foundation, and he is absolutely a true believer, like you and me.

Evan Nappen 09:18
He has quite a record in opposing red flag laws. He opposed the sell out by the rhinos, you know, the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act. He calls gun violence. You know, we’ve talked about that fake term that is just to make guns into violence. He calls it a fake problem. Gun violence are fake problems. Gotta love it, because they are. It’s criminal violence. That’s the problem. He also calls it a huge distraction. And that’s what the left always does, right? The anti-gunners, the anti-gun folks, they distract all the time with gun control, gun laws, gun violence – the propaganda term. And he calls them out on it. You know, the NRA spent half a million dollars supporting Vance. He is a rated for his Senate campaign. Vance has advocated the abolition of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. So,

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he’s an unwavering supporter of Constitutional rights and especially the right to keep and bear arms. I’m paraphrasing what NRA has to say about him.

Evan Nappen 10:54
We are very fortunate that President Trump has chosen J.D. Vance, and this is just extremely exciting. We now are poised for a tremendous victory for our gun rights. Remember, the next president is probably going to appoint more Supreme Court justices which can be not only someone who can block the left’s attempts at taking away our gun rights but can actually get an increase in our Second Amendment freedoms. Get repeals through and get positive gun rights laws that protect our rights passed. And, boy, the groundwork is really being laid here. I think we all have a right to be cautiously optimistic and happy for the way the political winds have changed so dramatically in America.

Evan Nappen 12:12
Let’s face it, what Biden and the Democrats have tried to do to President Trump has all backfired and collapsed under their own feet. You see that the President has survived everything that they’ve thrown at him, from the lawfare campaign to these bogus criminal indictments, to these ridiculous civil suits, and going after his company. All these things that will eventually be reversed. And they thought by slamming him like this, that they would stop him. But not a man who gets shot and wounded, pushes away Secret Service so he can stand there with a bloody cheek and his fists raised, to continue the fight. They’re not going to stop him. He is one of the toughest, most amazing, folks and boy, isn’t that who we want for our leader? You better believe it. So, these are interesting times for sure, and we’re following it very vigorously, folks. Hopefully, we will be able to fix the damage that’s been done, and actually make things tremendously better. And have the Second Amendment become the full embodiment of what our Founding Fathers meant for us to have.

Evan Nappen 13:45
Now, I did find another interesting tidbit here that I want to share, because again, you’re not going to see this emphasized in the imperial media, in the lamestream media. Researchers at Duke University did a study on gun violence. (https://abc11.com/post/children-gun-violence-researchers-duke- university-release- new/15051779/#:~:text=(WTVD)%20%2D%2D%20Duke%20University’s%20recent,ages%20of%20on e%20to%2018.) So, there’s the magic words again, you know, on that. It’s reported from Duke’s recent study, and here’s the good part. It’s really something. Regardless of how many gun laws, regardless of how restrictive you have gun laws, such as expanding background checks and waiting periods and safe storage and all that stuff, they love to dump on gun owners to pamper our rights, that there is no notable distinctions between states with and without firearm laws when it comes to deaths among children. That’s right. The Duke study essentially determined that the gun laws have no effect on the deaths of children. Oh my. So, all these gun laws do is take away our rights and make it harder for us to defend ourselves and our families and to exercise our Second Amendment rights. They do absolutely nothing in terms of the deaths of children. You know, the left is always, oh, it’s about the children. Well, if it’s about the children, it’s not doing a thing about the children. But it is causing the Constitution to be violated and our guarantee of our Second Amendment rights to take hits. No impact whatsoever on children. So, there’s some data that you’re not going to see mentioned too much in the media, but we love to talk about those things here on Gun Lawyer.

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Evan Nappen 16:15
Now, let me also bring to your attention regarding WeShoot. We have a number of things here happening at WeShoot that I want to bring to your attention. First of all, WeShoot is a great indoor range in Lakewood, and it’s easily accessed right from the Parkway. You can find them right on the web at weshootusa.com. Now what WeShoot is doing is they’re running a new webstore, offering extremely low and competitive prices. So, if you’re looking around for some great deals, they’re doing this to support the gun owner community and combat the recent fee hikes proposed by New Jersey. If you go to their webstore at weshootusa.com, you’ll find these great low and competitive prices. Plus, if you select in-store pickup, you can avoid transfer fees and shipping costs. That’s right. At WeShoot, there are no transfer fees if you select in-store pickup. The new webstore aims to help people who are impacted by rising prices and fees, and to encourage anyone discouraged by those increases to still get their guns and top quality gear. To celebrate this, from July 21 to July 28, they’re offering an additional 10% off all items, excluding gift cards, from their webstore. So, make sure you check out WeShoot. They’re offering these fantastic deals and discounts. You can get great guns and gear at great prices.

Evan Nappen 18:27
The other important thing, which we’ve talked about before and I want to let you know. there’s still some limited space available. So, you want to jump on this. Lieutenant Colonel Hartman, IDF Master Sniper, the guy who created the training program for the half million Israeli soldiers in the IDF. A guy that’s been there and done that for real. You know, he made the cover Soldier of Fortune for real. He will be live at WeShoot on August 9 in the morning, August 9. He’ll be there in person instructing, and you can attend that for free, as long as you buy his Elite Marksmanship Program system on the website. That Elite Marksmanship Program is amazing. It is instruction and video by Lieutenant Colonel Hartman. You’re going to learn things that you’re not going to learn anywhere else. He will be at WeShoot to personally instruct and teach how to implement the program. So, you’re going to get the program itself and then the personal instruction for free. You’ll get to meet this hero. His credentials are beyond reproach. He’s an amazing guy. So, if you’re interested in attending that, getting the Elite Marksmanship Program is really easy. You simply go to his website at wwwelitemarksman.com. We have the link right on our website here for the podcast as well. Purchase a program with a special for Gun Lawyer listeners. If you use the code all caps GUNLAWYER, one word all caps GUNLAWYER, you get an extra $100 off the Elite Marksmanship Program. Once you purchase the program, go to weshootusa.com, and register for the seminar under the training tab. Select the Sharpshooter’s Edge: Mastering Rifle Marksmanship with Lt. Col. Mikey Hartman. So, we’re going to need to get 100 people. That’s the max for this program. Like I said, there are a few places still available, but not many. So, make sure you jump on this great opportunity to get that top line training skills and meet Lieutenant Colonel Hartman personally. I know I’m looking forward to it. I will be there. I’ll also be speaking there as well. Don’t miss it.

Evan Nappen 21:36
I also want to remind you, as I know you are aware, at least you better be, that you need to be a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They, too, are a proud sponsor of Gun Lawyer, and I really do appreciate it. They are the number one gun rights defenders in New Jersey.

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They’re the ones litigating in federal court, as we speak, on all the bad gun laws that Jerseyans suffer under, like the assault firearm law, the large capacity magazine law, and the Carry Killer bill. Dealing with the Attorney General and getting all kinds of good things done. Helping our gun rights. Plus, they have a full time paid lobbyist down in Trenton keeping an eye on their shenanigans. You’ll get email alerts and the best newsletter on gun rights in the state. So, make sure you’re a member. Make sure you join the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. ANJRPC.com. anjrpc.com. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Be part of the solution. They’re the group. I belong, and I serve on the board. I help with the litigation and legal issues. I’m dedicated to the Association. You need to be a member. They are the number one group for Jersey, and it’s critical that you belong.

Evan Nappen 23:15
The other thing you really need to do if you haven’t done it already. Big suggestion. Make sure you buy my book. That’s right. It’s New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a question and answer format. It’s your guidebook through the dangerous matrix of New Jersey gun laws. You don’t want to be a GOFU. One of the best ways to avoid being a GOFU is to have that book. I wrote it to protect you. It’s used by the State Police Firearms Unit. It’s used by police and judges, attorneys and most importantly 1000s of gun owners throughout New Jersey. That’s who I wrote it for. It’s a labor of love. It’s now the 25th Anniversary Edition. When you get the book, scan the front cover and that will get you right to my subscriber database for free. I don’t sell it. I don’t distribute that database to anybody. But you will get updates from me if there are any changes in the law. You’ll be able to access the archives for all the updates, and you’ll be given notice of new updates, so the book stays current. Make sure you do that. If you want to get your copy today, just go to EvanNappen.com. That’s right www.EvanNappen.com. My name.com very easy. You’ll see the big orange book, click it to order it, and you’ll have it in a matter of days. You’ll be glad that you did it.

Evan Nappen 25:00
I love getting letters, and I’ve gotten some really great Ask Evan letters. These are so important because they are listeners with real questions and things that many of you may have wondered about yourself, just never gotten the time to ask. So, I have a letter here, and this is from Michael from Woodland Park. And what Michael says is kind of interesting, and we’ll go through his questions. Once again, I want to express my heartfelt gratitude to you, Evan, as a seminar attendee and long-time listener. Your presence and participation has always been a source of inspiration. Your emphasis on using the privileges granted us by the overlords running the People’s Republic of New Jersey and the transportation aspect is genuinely enlightening. It is my understanding that those with a permit to carry: number one, may have a loaded handgun on their person that is holstered and concealed when in a vehicle. Not be loaded in a holster or stored anywhere else in the vehicle including a purse or glove box, and must comply with the transportation exemption and rules.

Evan Nappen 26:23
So, basically, that is the story. If you have a Permit to Carry a handgun, the Carry Killer bill originally prohibited folks from carrying their loaded licensed handgun in a vehicle. That was won by the State Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Thanks to their litigation, this was stayed and actually enjoined so that it’s no longer effective in the law. You can carry your loaded, concealed handgun on your person in your vehicle. The law that was part of the Carry Killer bill, we

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called that the Carjacker Protection law when it originally came out, is no longer enforceable law. Thanks to the Association. However, you need to have your gun in the same manner that you would carry it outside the car, which is concealed loaded properly holstered on your person. Which is why, if you have a purse, you can’t have your gun in the purse and throw it on the back seat, that kind of a thing. You need to have it on your person. If you can, have the shoulder strap right over your shoulder, right there, directly next to you. Hopefully even touching your person if you’re carrying in a purse carry or fanny pack carry. We’ve discussed this before in the show. If you’re not carrying it in a proper way for concealed carry but instead are transporting it under the old exemptions, cased and unloaded, then it has to be just that – cased and unloaded. In the trunk if you have a trunk. You have to be going to specific places. From your home to the target range or from your home to hunting, if it’s appropriate for hunting, or from your home to your place of business, etc. You have to stay within those narrow exemptions and transport it accordingly.

Evan Nappen 28:30
Number two, they may have a loaded handgun on their person that is holstered and concealed within the vehicle. However, any range bag containing additional handguns may not be stored anywhere else in the vehicle unless they comply with the transportation exemption and rules. That is true. So, if you’re going to the range, then transport the other guns pursuant to the range transport, which is found by the way under N.J.S. 2C:39-6.f. for the range transportation. That’s where you can stay clearly within the exemption for the proper transport and then subsection g. of 39-6 is the mode of transport, which is unloaded, always unloaded, in either a closed and fastened case or in a gun box or locked in a trunk. That’s the proper way to do that.

Evan Nappen 29:31
Now number three, any handgun stored in a vehicle must be unloaded and stored using the transportation exemption. Yep, that is correct. Michael says, this is beyond insane because allowing a person to remove and secure the holster containing the weapon requires less manipulation then removing the handgun from the holster, removing the magazine, pulling the slide back, ejecting a round, capturing the round, placing the handgun into the lockbox, storing the ejected round, and storing the magazine. Perhaps more awkward, getting back in the vehicle, unlocking the box, removing the handgun, inserting the magazine, chambering a round, removing the magazine, topping of the magazine, inserting the magazine, then holstering the handgun.

Evan Nappen 30:12
Yes, this is the idiotic procedure that we have to go through if you’re going to be loading and unloading, especially when dealing with sensitive places because you have to secure it in a locked box. You want it locked and unloaded. This requires the continuous loading and unloading of the gun, which itself now forces you, in that confined space of a vehicle, to have to do this. This itself is now creating more unsafe conditions. So, the law does not enhance safety. It actually decreases safety. So much for the gun safety advocates that now require this absurdity. Mike goes on and says, perhaps the New Jersey State Police can produce a video showing how anyone could possibly do the above without being noticed to avoid some Karen calling 911 to report a person with a gun or some bad guy getting the idea of how to bypass purchase restrictions. I’d love to see it. And yes, I’ve had any number of cases where individuals are observed with their gun doing that very thing and the police get contacted. Of course,

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they’re legal. They’re allowed to do it. So, when you’re doing this, the idea is you have to do it very discreetly, on top of having to do all those manipulations. Again, less safe, more dangerous. Instead of just leaving it loaded untouched in the holster, which the law does not allow you to do at that sensitive place. You have to store your gun. It is as stupid as stupid gets, but that is New Jersey law, of course. New Jersey laws number one goal is to be stupid when it comes to guns, and they don’t fail here.

Evan Nappen 32:07
Mike goes on, using People’s Republic of New Jersey logic, if a person with a permit to carry left their home in the morning with a loaded and holstered handgun, with several tasks, including: one and two, dropping kids off at two different schools; three, stopping at a pharmacy; four, dropping off a property tax payment; five, taking a walk in the park; six, dropping off a library book; seven, dropping off some no longer needed clothing at a shelter; eight, picking up a friend at the airport; and nine and ten, picking up the kids from different schools. The question from Mike is, would that person strictly complying with all laws, rules, and regulations, with a permit to carry be expected to store their handgun in strict conformance with the transportation requirements between each and every errand? Or is being on the road between sensitive places allowed by the transportation exemption?

Evan Nappen 33:01
Mike, the answer is yes, that is exactly the absurdity. Frankly, someone should make a video just showing how stupid and dangerous it is. That every time you enter a sensitive place and park, you’re going to have to unload your gun and lock it. Meaning unholster it, reholster it. Each and every time you do that. It gets even more dangerous with the schools. Because not only are schools a sensitive place, but also there’s a separate prohibition under N.J.S. 2C:39-5.e. for educational facilities. This does not even allow you on the school property with your gun loaded or unloaded. So, you are going to have to park on the street to do that with the kids. It is as stupid as it gets. That hypothetical is really an excellent hypothetical that demonstrates the continuous having to handle that handgun in the vehicle over and over again, of loading and racking and unloading. It is unbelievably stupid, and it really needs to end. We need to win in the Carry Killer case. We have to get rid of these sensitive places. That’s just an abuse designed to limit our rights. Mike, thanks for the great letter and pointing out some very important problems that exist.

Evan Nappen 34:38
I have another letter, and this letter is from Lou. Lou says, hi Evan, my wife and I were listening to your podcast while driving back home from a long Fourth of July weekend in New England. That’s very nice. She came up with an interesting question and she wanted me to ask you. We both have New Jersey FID Cards, but all the firearms in my home were purchased / are owned by me. So, is it legal for my wife to transport my firearm? For example, we want to have a date night at the range. I leave work and drive directly to the range to meet her. She leaves our home with the firearms to meet me at the range. I understand that New Jersey gun law does not allow you to lend or borrow another individual’s firearms. Thank you for all you do . . . Lou.

Evan Nappen 35:24
Yeah, Lou, that’s a big problem. Your guns have to be transported by you, not her. If she’s going to transport them and that’s the plan, then you need to do Certificates of Eligibility to her before you leave

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for your long arms. So, now you’ve transferred them to her, and she can bring them to the range where you can then use them. Then if you want to get them back, she gets to do the paperwork back to you. Now, private sales normally require a dealer, but not with private sales to immediate family members. That also includes your spouse. So, you could actually do this paperwork back and forth twice to make that legal. But, if you’re not going to do that paperwork, then no, she can’t take your guns to the range. Only you can do that. Even though you both have New Jersey Firearms ID cards. Yep, it is just another absurdity under New Jersey law, if we want to talk about how the law technically works and applies. So, Lou, thanks for the great question.

Evan Nappen 36:23
This is from Ronald. Now Ronald asks an interesting question that doesn’t apply to him right now, and hopefully, it never applies to him or any of us. But it is an interesting thought. So, I want you to hear Ronald’s letter. He says, hi, Evan. My question revolves around homelessness. I am not homeless, nor do I plan to be. But life sometimes takes a turn for the worst. If I found myself living in my car, am I allowed to keep my gun in the car permanently? Would I be abiding by the law? Further, if I have to cross state lines for whatever reason, how can I go about doing that without breaking the law? Ronald, as much as the left bends over backwards for the homeless, as much as they want the homeless to set up tents anywhere they want and all that problem instead of addressing and really trying to help them, guess what? If you are homeless, you’ve lost your gun rights. That’s right. It’s that simple.

Evan Nappen 37:30
In New Jersey, you’re going to need a residence in order to get a Firearms ID Card, a pistol purchase permit, or a carry permit. You cannot get a license without having a residence. Now, let’s say you already somehow have this gun and you’re not looking to get a license. Well, how are you possessing the gun? There is no exemption for homelessness. The exemption under N.J.S. 2C:39-6.e. says possession in one’s home. If you’re homeless, if you don’t have a home, if you don’t have a residence, if you don’t have land owned or possessed by you, guess what? You don’t have an exemption for your possession, and you can’t get a license to possess it. If you had a carry permit, then you’re not restricted to having that loaded handgun on you only in your home. But you can’t get the carry permit unless you have a residence. They’re not going to issue it. Right on the application, what’s your residence? Homeless isn’t an answer that’s going to get accepted. So, the bottom line is if you’re homeless, you’re also Second Amendment deprived. They have disenfranchised in New Jersey the homeless from the Second Amendment. They are disenfranchise from gun rights. That’s right. So, look, it’s an interesting question because it shows this effect.

Evan Nappen 39:10
The issue that Jersey makes for homelessness, I think might be even ripe for a challenge. Because under Bruen when you look at text, history, and tradition, there was never a requirement in the past laws, you know, of the times that we have to look at from the founding of the Second Amendment, maybe up to the 1860s, where in order to have a gun, you had to have a home. Believe me, there were plenty of homeless throughout our history that had their rights not taken away from them. But that’s not how it stands now in Jersey. So, maybe some group that normally defends the homeless, like the ACLU, maybe they’ll step up for homeless gun rights. Yeah, that’ll be the day. That’ll be the day.

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Evan Nappen 40:05
So, what about this week’s very popular segment, the GOFU? What’s the GOFU for this week? Remember the GOFU is the Gun Owner Fuck Up in which I’m talking about actual cases, actual gun owners, who end up getting in trouble, having problems. They are expensive lessons they learned that you get to learn very, very reasonably. You get to learn them for free. So, this GOFU is about children and air guns. Keep in mind that in New Jersey, air guns, air pistols, air rifles, pellet rifles, etc., are firearms under New Jersey law. Airsoft is not a firearm. You know the ones that shoot the little six millimeter plastic pellets. But your traditional BB guns, lead pellet, alloy pellet, pellet firing rifles, .177 pellets, .22 cal pellet BB guns, traditional air guns, are firearms under New Jersey law. If you let your son or daughter have a BB gun, you know, like Christmas story, the ol’e Red Ryder and they go out, not under your direct supervision with that, well, that’s an unlawful transfer of a firearm made to your son or daughter. It was unlawful, and their possession of the air gun or BB gun is unlawful. Both you and your child can face New Jersey gun charges. That’s right. Firearm charges for a BB gun in New Jersey. So, don’t be that GOFU. If you’re going to take your kids shooting, make sure they’re under your direct supervision at all times and therefore under the exemption for that under N.J.S. 2C:58-6.1. That’s what allows it to happen. But if they’re not under your supervision, direct supervision, no guns, no air guns. Don’t let them keep their BB gun in their room, etc. None of that. You can’t do it in New Jersey. And if you do, you can have big problems that can escalate to everybody losing their gun rights, losing their guns and possibly losing your freedom by being imprisoned.

Evan Nappen 42:50
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 42:59
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E195_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 193-Storing Guns Outside Your Home Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 193SUMMARY KEYWORDS

taft, new jersey, put, ffl, gun, vending machines, ammo, president, carry, holster, roosevelt, sword, terms, storage, good, interesting, range, firearm, fanny pack, durandal

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I get asked often, where can I store my firearms, but not in my home? If I need to find a place of temporary storage? What can I do? Are there places that offer that? It can get a little tricky in New Jersey because you can’t just go and bring your guns to your friend’s house and have them hold it. That’s not a legal transfer. That’s deemed an illegal transfer. So, what can folks in Jersey do? Well, a good friend of the show, John Petrolino, just put out an excellent article called “NJ NICS Research Center Knocks it out of the Park on Storage Map.” (https://bearingarms.com/john-petrolino/2024/07/05/nj-nics-research-center-knocks-it-out-of-the-park- on-storage-map-n1225497) And I think they did, too. I agree with John. He did some great coverage here of the NJ NICS Research Center. This is an article that you can find on BearingArms, which is a great aggregate news site, and they have great writers like John. This is very interesting. This whole idea of gun storage, temporarily, outside the home. Sometimes gun owners need that because of various circumstances. They don’t want to leave their guns maybe at home when they’re going on vacation or going out of state for a while. Or sometimes there are situations in the home where they just don’t want firearms to be there. Whatever the reason, there is a movement on the anti-gun side, which is true, to facilitate offsite storage and how to do it legally.

Evan Nappen 02:13
So much so that what makes this so interesting is that the New Jersey Government tried to set up a safe storage, firearm storage, map through the Rutgers New Jersey Gun Violence, it’s always “gun violence”, you know, not criminal violence, Research Center. This was put together by Murphy, and they spent $3 million of our tax dollars to do this. Frankly, their site sucks, which you might expect. But the NNRC did an excellent job. They really researched and put the time in and came up with their list and recommendations. They made sure that the places confirmed it and were able and legal to do so. When you go to their website, which the link is in John Petrolino’s article, of course, but you can go to njnics.com, they have the New Jersey “Firearm Storage Map”. They have other things there, too, that’s of great interest. Their number one recommendation by the way, on the website is FSS Armory in Pine Brook, New Jersey, and Elite Tactical Academy in Easton, PA. They have the information there.

Evan Nappen 03:55
But what’s interesting and was pointed out right on their site is that many fraudulent maps are published by anti-gun organizations that wish to disarm the public. One such map was published, as we

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mentioned, by the Rutgers Gun Violence, “Gun Violence”, Research Center, and it cost $3 million. What NJNICS did is they did OPRA (Open Public Records Act) requests, and they put this together. By the way, Rutgers’ expenses were $107,672. NJNIC’s expenses were zero, by the way, and the New Jersey grant, paid by you and me, was $3 million. All right. Keep in mind that NJNICS is not sponsored by any firearm business. They have a storage map, and it’s literally mapped out. They list their top picks.

Evan Nappen 04:58
Their top picks are the FSS Armory. They’re in Pine Brook. And Elite Tactical Academy in Easton. Griffin and Howe in Andover, and they have Gunsitters in East Hanover. These are their top picks. They do put under Gunsitters, “inquire about FFL details”. That’s on the website. The other three are straight out recommendations because they are FFLs. Apparently, Gunsitters is not and that’s why they put that little red warning there under that. But these are their top picks. It does say there are more options and that includes Gun for Hire in Woodland Park. They got an “honorable mention”. They have an FFL license. Hackettstown Firearms Storage. They’re an FFL. Tactical Training Center Range in Flemington. They’re an FFL. Full Metal Jacket Range in Ocean View. They’re an FFL. Range 609 in Rio Grande. They’re an FFL. RTSP Range in Randolph and Union Hill. They’re an FFL, as well. Reloaderz in Wayne, and they’re an FFL. You can see their recommendations, their listings and the research that they’ve done. So that if you are looking to store firearms outside your home, even temporarily, these are some places that you could see if they meet your needs. According to NJNICS Research Center. So, good job for them. And for John for writing, again, a great article, very thorough and detailed. He really discusses these issues and gets the truth out. That’s why we love John. So, check that out.

Evan Nappen 07:19
Now, recently, this has been interesting. Seeing the post-debate. This isn’t exactly about guns, but then again, it is because Biden has been the most anti-gun President ever in history. He has done agency abuse to the maximum degree. Getting ATF to declare all kinds of legal things illegal and constantly pushing gun bans and these anti-Second Amendment actions. Of course, get ready for this, folks, he lies about his position. I’m pro-Second Amendment. I don’t want to shock you by saying Joe Biden’s a liar. But definitely on the Second Amendment, he surely is. Because his actions speak far louder than his words. You can see the effects as it has changed the dynamic and the messaging that comes out. But, luckily, the Supreme Court has, and other courts for that matter have hammered back his efforts at abuse of agency rule, abuse of our rights. So, I think it’s fair game here, and it’s very important.

Evan Nappen 08:42
Look, if you’re a one-issue voter like yours truly and that choice is going to come down to Trump or Biden, well, there’s only one choice then. Trump. That’s it man. End of story if that’s what you believe in. Because Biden is just there. Moneyed by the anti-gun lobby. Moneyed up the wazoo, you know, with Soros dollars and Bloomberg dollars and all that. He constantly pushes and constantly falls back to putting an anti-gun rights message out. So, I’m watching this debate, as I’m sure many of you did, and you see that finally, what we all knew, but apparently there was major cover up over it, his disabilities. His mental disability, and his physical disability. You know. You’ve listened I’m sure to the news that’s

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discussing the implications of all this. It’s scary even now thinking he’s our President. If we have our enemies’ prey upon us, that’s the guy making the decisions. It’s pretty scary.

Evan Nappen 10:01
So, the big issue at this moment, at the time of this podcast, is he going to drop out? Or is he going to stay? And that’s an interesting question. There’s a major push within the Democrat party. We’re talking about classic liberal media outlets that were their cheerleaders, their cheerleaders, participating in any message they wanted to put out. They ran with it, you know, and whatever it was. They have turned on him. I’m talking about the New York Times, Washington Post, Politico and on and on and on. Saying he has to go. He has to go; he has to go. Then there’s the loyal contingent saying, oh, no, he’s fine. Lying, gaslighting, all that. So, will he go? Will he or won’t he? And what’s interesting here is, my bet is that he’s not going to go. He’s not gonna go. He’s not gonna go because, first of all, the money is his – $200 million. It’s very hard dealing with the money. Getting those monies to any other candidate may not even be possible with maybe the exception of cackling Kamala. So, there’s that problem. There are early voting states where things need to be registered and put forward in advance. Getting a new candidate will place problems there. So, it looks like they’re stuck.

Evan Nappen 11:32
But I think the number one factor that you don’t hear that much about, but it’s plainly there, and that is why he is staying. I think it falls squarely on the shoulders of Jill Biden. If you watch his wife, Jill, she’s there leading him. Always there. She praises him like a little toddler. Oh, that was so good, Joe. You answered all the questions. I was ready for her to say, have a cookie. I mean, what? You know, this is our president, right? This woman loves the First Lady life, and she doesn’t want to get rid of it. Power through the Presidency. If she doesn’t approve of him leaving, he’s not going to get out. This reminds me, historically, of another famous First Lady, but it may not be the First Lady you’re thinking of. Many of you might think that one of the key First Ladies who had tremendous influence over their President husband was Mrs. Wilson. President Woodrow Wilson’s wife, (Edith Bolling Galt Wilson). While he was incapacitated from a stroke and whatever his problems were, you know, she did step in.

Evan Nappen 12:57
But she was not the first First Lady that has the same or better analogies to what’s going on now with Jill Biden. For that, the First Lady you need to look at is Nellie Taft. That’s right. Nellie Taft. Her full name was Helen Louise Taff, but she went by Nellie. She was William Howard Taft’s wife, and she was an unbelievably ambitious woman who, even at the age of 17, said she wanted to become First Lady. So, she married Taft. She guided him through his political career and made all the moves to get them closer to the presidency. She played it out really well with Theodore Roosevelt. He was Secretary of War at one point. And what happened was, you see, Roosevelt had two terms as President. The first term was when President McKinley was assassinated, and he won his second term in a huge landslide. It was clear that if he ran for a third term, he’d be reelected again. But he did not want to break the tradition of Washington, President George Washington, who only served two terms. Now, there wasn’t a requirement in those days to only serve two terms. But Roosevelt was not one to break convention or tradition, even though later his cousin, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, would break that tradition and run for terms exceeding two and be elected even. But Theodore Roosevelt had a lot more respect for tradition

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than Franklin Roosevelt did. He said, I’m getting out of here, and I’m going to Africa. He had Taft as his handpicked successor, and everyone was good with it.

Evan Nappen 15:17
It was kind of understood that Roosevelt was going to take this break, and then come back. Then he could run again, because he believed you couldn’t have more than two presidential terms. You couldn’t have more than two in a row. But as long as you gave a break and then came back, you could and that would be fair game. So, when he came back after Africa, the famous 1912 election time, Nellie Taft did not want her husband to give it up. And Roosevelt’s like, hey, you know, we kind of had this understanding. And guess what they did? They rigged the Republican convention. Yep. They rigged the conventions in those days, too. Taft was the current president, and he could exert the power. They rigged the convention, and even though Roosevelt wanted the nomination, Taft got the nomination. Roosevelt was pretty angry about it, so he ran as a third party. He beat Taft in the general election, but he split the ticket and that’s how Wilson became President. Woodrow Wilson became president. Then, of course, Woodrow Wilson, with World War One and the Versailles Treaty. The Versailles Treaty just hammered Germany so hard that it laid the groundwork for the rise of Adolf Hitler and World War Two. It was not a good idea. That’s why we changed after World War Two and adopted the Marshall Plan instead of a Versailles Treaty type plan. But you can trace all this back to Nellie Taft and her pushing her husband, who really just wanted to be a Supreme Court justice. Even when he had been offered it earlier, she made him turn it down. No, you’ve got to be President. He just wanted to be a judge. He didn’t want to be President. He didn’t like being President. But Nellie. Nope, nope, nope, you’re going to be President. And that’s what he did. It wasn’t until years later, after he lost, and Harding became President. Harding actually finally made Taft, gave him his dream job and put him on the Court. And that’s what he loved. That’s what he wanted to do. He didn’t even want to be President nevertheless
run for a second term. So, if you want to look for analogy, there’s a good analogy. The Nelly Taft story. I think it’s interesting, and it is something that is newsworthy today that you’re not really hearing discussed, but I think it’s something you should hear.

Evan Nappen 18:04
I am proud to mention that this podcast is sponsored by the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. It is the gun rights organization for New Jersey. They are the stalwart defenders of our rights. They are currently in federal court litigating over all those vital major cases, challenging the assault weapon ban, the large capacity magazine ban, the Carry Killer bill and more. More is coming down the pike, too. This is a group that you need to be part of. Their full time paid lobbyist keeps an eye on the shenanigans in Trenton, and they put out a great newsletter. You need to be a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. You can go to their website anjrpc.org, and you can see all the great work. You’ll get their top line newsletter, email alerts. You will know, by joining the Association, that you are a part of the solution. We all want to be part of the solution. I would hope so. That’s what you can do. It’s the minimum you can do. Join anjrpc.org.

Evan Nappen 19:18
I also want to mention my favorite gun range, which is WeShoot. WeShoot is another proud sponsor of Gun Lawyer, and they are a fantastic range in Lakewood, New Jersey. An indoor pistol range there. They have top trainers, a top facility with a great pro shop. They will set you up with everything you

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need for your firearm licensing. Your actual gear, whatever it is. They can help you out, and they are really friendly. They will treat you like family. Everybody who goes there loves it. I know you will, too. They’re right there in Central Jersey, Lakewood. It’s easy, right off the Parkway. They are a great resource with a top line range. You need to check out WeShoot. They are just the best.

Evan Nappen 20:19
Don’t forget that on August 9, Lieutenant Colonel “Mikey” Hartman is going to be there live, and I’m going to be there, too. I don’t want to miss Lieutenant Colonel Hartman. Remember, he was a top sniper, Master Sniper, for the IDF. He created the entire firearms training program for the IDF. He trained half a million or more soldiers. If you heard the show where I had him live on the show. I was very proud to have him on the show. What a great man. And man, you’ve got to check out his resume. You can’t believe the stuff that he’s done. He also has a great training course right online at elitemarksman.com, EliteMarksman.com. You can actually get the course that trains the IDF. And it’s a wonderful course. If you use the secret code “Gun Lawyer”, you get $100 off. That’s a special deal that he did for us. But look, it’s free to come down and meet Lieutenant Colonel Hartman. He goes by Mikey Hartman. I’m looking forward to it. I really am. So, check it out.

Evan Nappen 21:44
Last but not least, I have to shamelessly plug my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun laws. I wrote it, and it’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a question and answer format. It’s your roadmap to understanding New Jersey’s insanity that they call gun laws. I want you to stay safe, not committing GOFUs. It’s my whole calling in life, and this book stands as a testament to that. It’s the 25th Anniversary Edition, and it is a labor of love. You can just go to EvanNappen.com and order the book right online. When you get the book, scan the front QR code there and subscribe for free, no charge whatsoever, to my database of which I keep private, by the way. I will let you know about any updates, and you can access the archives at any time. Get all the updates so the book stays current. You stay current, and you stay protected. So, pick up your copy of New Jersey Gun Law today at EvanNappen.com.

Evan Nappen 22:55
So, here’s something that I think you may find interesting. Some of you may be gamers. I know my son, Teddy, is. He loves doing the video game thing, and he’s really good at it, too. There’s a game out there that some of you may be familiar with called Borderlands. The Borderlands game is popular. There are different games that have come out under the Borderlands name. One of the things that I saw which I thought was interesting is how ammunition gets sold in that video game. There’s this guy Marcus Kincaid, if any of you are familiar with the game. Marcus Kincaid is quite the entrepreneur, a mercenary type of guy, and he set up vending machines throughout the Borderlands gamescape there. You actually buy your ammunition and guns and other things, too. But definitely ammo from Marcus’ Ammo Dump, his vending machines. One of his famous quotes is “Remember Marcus means quality at a great price.”

Evan Nappen 24:21
So, if any of you are familiar with what I’m talking about or even if you’re not, you might get a kick out of hearing that we now have, for real, in the United States, ammo vending machines. That’s right. Vending

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machines that dispense ammunition have just been put into two stores in Alabama. That’s right. It’s done by a company called American Rounds, and we’re probably going to see these popping up all over the place, except New Jersey, of course. Because New Jersey has all the added regulation including registration of ammunition purchase. But these are popping up in Free America. These two grocery stores have American Rounds there. They put them in at Fresh Value grocery stores. So, they’re in two grocery stores at the moment, and they’re apparently a very big hit with customers, particularly in Alabama. The way it works is you put your photo ID into the machine, and then the machine does a 360 degree scan to match you to the ID card. Then you can buy the ammunition you want from the vending machine, and it disperses your ammo, just like that.

Evan Nappen 25:49
So, I was thinking about this saying, wow, that’s really handy. You can just buy ammo at any time of the day or night that the food store is open. That’s pretty good, right? Twenty-four hour ammo purchase. There you go. Maybe at some point, we’re going to see these ammo vending machines at the airport. Imagine that. Now, of course, they can’t put it in the protected zone where you have to go through security, but they could have some outside security. Anyone who flies with guns and goes to different places, you get there, and oh yeah, I gotta get some ammo. So, before you exit the airport, you go to the ammo vending machine and pick up some ammo there. Maybe they’ll even start having like holsters, too, you know, other things in the vending machine. Of course, you can’t sell the guns yet in the vending machine like the video game, but you can have other accessories. Right now, these ammo vending machines are a real thing. Apparently, they’re pretty popular. One of them’ s in Tuscaloosa and the other is in Pell City. I think we’re going to see these get bigger and more popular, especially in Free America. Where you can just buy your ammunition the same way you can buy so many other things in vending machines. You’ve seen electronics purchases, right? You’ve seen everything imaginable coming out of vending machines. I even remember the old days when you bought that gumball that one day you could get ammo. Well, there you go, folks. Ammo vending machines. Gotta like it.

Evan Nappen 27:35
Then I picked up another fascinating little ditty for you. How many of you are now aware that somebody pulled France’s, the country of France, legendary sword called the “Durandal” sword. The Durandal sword was in stone, kind of like the way Excalibur for the English was in stone. Well, the Durandal sword was wedged in this stone for 1300 years. Somebody apparently pulled it out because it’s missing. It’s gone. Not only was the stone holding this sword, but they were afraid that somebody might try to steal the sword there in France, it was even chained in addition to being in the stone. It’s a 32 feet high climb to get to it, and it had a chain around it as well. Somehow, that sword vanished. Now apparently the sword is claimed to be the sword of Roland, who was an officer of Charlemagne in French epic literature. They said it belonged to Charlemagne at one point, passed through other hands and then came to Roland. It’s been a familiar sight in the town of Rocamadour. Apparently, that’s where it was. They say they feel that they’ve been stripped of a part of itself, but even if it’s legend, the destinies of our village and this sword are entwined.

Evan Nappen 29:38
So, it’s a shame to hear about the Durandal sword. You can read about this. I actually got it from “Not the Bee”. You’ve probably heard of the Babylon Bee. But there’s another part where they have “Not the

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Bee”, where they send you things that seem like it almost might qualify as a Babylon B parody, but it’s actually real stories. They apparently got it themselves from the Daily Mail Online. So, if you want to read more about the disappearance of the Durandal sword, you can check that out. (https://notthebee.com/article/frances-legendary-durandal-sword-vanishes-from-the-rock-in-which-its- been-wedged-for-1300-years)

Evan Nappen 30:20
Now, one of the favorite sections of Gun Lawyer that’s just so popular is the GOFU. The GOFU, of course, is Gun Owner Fuck Ups, and we talk about them because these are expensive lessons that certain people have learned that you get to learn for the cheap. It’s really talking about mistakes and avoiding mistakes. Keeping yourself safe and not becoming a victim of New Jersey gun law. So, I have a letter that’s going to kind of roll into what the GOFU is today. This letter is from Maryalice, and Maryalice said, Hi, Evan. In Show 183 a guy asked about using the magnetic pistol holder in his car. Your response based on law was surprising to me. I did buy one of those magnets for the purpose of mounting it in my car. It got me thinking about the ability for a woman to carry in her purse. I was having an issue trying to find a holster for my SIG Macro with the Icarus lower because of the thumb “wings”. So, in the interim, I purchased a carry purse and a fanny pack. The fanny pack will likely be on my person. However, when I’m driving, the purse is not on me but likely on the seat next to me. What is the law on this? You made a strong point of carry must be on the person. Are either of these alternatives to an on person holster legal in NJ? Also, please give a shout out to the State Police Troop B in Augusta as they approved my carry permit this week in three hours and 15 minutes from the final reference. Boy, that is pretty good. I gotta give credit there. In total, the application process from the application sent to them to receipt of approval was 12 hours. Well, congratulations. Sounds like record time. I think it is record time. But if someone has a faster one, let me know. But that’s really outstanding that you got your permit that quickly. Of course, what’s not outstanding is being limited in where we can use it and everything that the Carry Killer bill has put upon us, but we’re fighting them. That’s why you need to belong to the Association. Maryalice. Thank you for always providing interesting dialogue and for all I’ve learned from your show and the listeners’ questions.

Evan Nappen 32:42
Well, thank you for being a listener and thank you for bringing this up. So, let’s talk about this. Yes, the GOFU which Maryalice did not commit, luckily, because of listening to the show would be carrying your firearm improperly in your vehicle. We’re not like other states in New Jersey, remember that. You cannot have that gun on a magnet mount. You cannot have that gun in the console of your car. You cannot have it loaded so you can just open the console or open the glovebox like in many states you can. Nope, it does not. We’re lucky at the moment because the Association brought their case and was able to get an injunction over the Car Jacker Protection language of the Carry Killer law, which mandated that we couldn’t carry our loaded handgun at all in our motor vehicle, even with a permit, even with a New Jersey Carry Permit.

Evan Nappen 33:41
Now, we can do that. We can carry, but it has to be loaded and concealed on your person, even in the vehicle. So, the GOFU is to not make the mistake of improperly carrying in your vehicle, which luckily Maryalice did not make that mistake. She has a good question What about a purse or the fanny pack?

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Well, with a fanny pack, it should be belted around you. Therefore, it is on your person. It’s belted to you. As long as it meets the criteria for the holster, where it covers and protects the guard and holds it secure. All those things we’ve talked about in the past. You are good to go with the fanny pack around you. The purse gets a little trickier because the purse holsters are made to conceal a holster that holds the gun. Well, if you have that over your shoulder, it’s on your person and that’s good. Now, if it’s not on your person and it’s in the vehicle, we’re straying further away. I don’t want to see you become the test case of if it’s right next to you on the seat kind of leaning, touching you, right next to you. Then we have good claims to make that you still have dominion and control of it. It’s on your person or as good as on your person.

Evan Nappen 35:06
But if you put it behind you on the back seat or on the passenger seat, I mean, it’s going to end up becoming arguably a jury question on that definition, whether you met it. Remember, when we’re dealing with a jury, we have to convince 12 people who weren’t smart enough to avoid jury duty. So, your best bet is to be very careful. The fanny pack is solid when it’s on you. That’s on your person. You’re good. With the purse, you want to make sure it’s on your person, really try to achieve that. Make sure you have your permit, and make sure you remember your Duty to Disclose if you are stopped. You have to say you have the gun, and you have to have your permit and show it. Because of that, this may get tested sooner rather than later. You’ve got to mention having a gun and then your method of carry can end up getting questioned. Then you can end up being a GOFU, which you need to avoid. So, be careful. Follow those guidelines.

Evan Nappen 36:16
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 36:26
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E193_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 192-The Great NJ Carry Review Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 192SUMMARY KEYWORDS

carry, place, prohibited, gun, law, firearm, new jersey, state, prohibition, part, exemption, permit, vehicle, jersey, licensed, facility, sensitive, private property, including, educational facility

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

EvanNappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I recently heard a joke and thought I’d share it with you. Don’t hold it against me before we get into the meat of this show. It goes something like this. So, the police were summoned to the scene of a domestic violence shooting. When the cops get there, they see a woman, and they say, Ma’am, did you just shoot your husband with that 9 mm? The woman says, yes, I did. So, the police said, well, why did you do that? And she said, well, let me tell you. I just mopped the floor, and that jerk, after I’ve told him so many times, just walked across it in his dirty freakin’ boots. The officer, of course, called in to the station to tell them about this. His Lieutenant gets on the phone, and he says, say, did you arrest the woman yet? Have you placed her under arrest? The officer said no, sir. I haven’t. The Lieutenant says well, why not? Why not? He said, well, sir, the floor was still wet. So, anyway, there you go. If any of you are married, you’ll understand that one. Yeah, that’s for sure.

EvanNappen 01:47
So, I get a lot of letters, and I love getting those letters. The ask Evan about all the crazy gun laws going on in Jersey. But I’ll tell you a letter that keeps popping up, a question that keeps popping up, and I’m dedicating this show. So, here is a sample letter of the question, and we’re going to deal with this completely on this show. Here’s the question. This one’s from Barry, but I’ve gotten many other letters similar. I just need to do a show on New Jersey carry. Basically, where you can and can’t carry. Barry writes, I would like to ask you if there’s an updated list of “sensitive places”. He has my book, he looked at other information and all kinds of things, and he just wants to know. Barry, I appreciate the sentiment.

EvanNappen 02:44
Because so many folks have asked, let us review New Jersey’s “sensitive places” law so you can go back and reference on this show. Now when things change, I’m going to let you know. Because we are currently litigating this. We being the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. I’m not officially part of that litigation. But, of course, I help the Association at times, and the Association is a sponsor. I am proud to have them as a sponsor of the show. We should be seeing some results shortly. But let’s talk about what is the current situation when it comes to carrying in New Jersey. Where can you carry? Where can’t you carry? What happened was, after the Bruen decision, New Jersey flipped out, basically, and decided to have a big ol hissy fit over the case that could make it clear that their ploy that

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had stopped law-abiding citizens for over half a century from being able to carry in New Jersey. The so- called “justifiable need” trick or block that was in the law and then extrapolated, interpreted, by the court to create this standard that essentially no one could meet. You had to show urgent necessity. Urgent necessity was defined by having to demonstrate that you personally are subject to threats of serious bodily harm or death and that carrying a handgun was the only way to avert those threats. So, basically, in Jersey, you know, if you’ve just been shot and killed, you then qualified for a carry license. This ensured that it was virtually impossible to get, and there were less than 600 civilian carries. Now, since the advent of Bruen, there’s almost 40,000 or more carry licenses, and it’s growing every day.

EvanNappen 04:56
But when this law passed, the anti-Second Amendment folks, the Democrats, let’s just call it for what it is, the Democrats, couldn’t handle this. So, they said, look, we can no longer stop the issuance of permits with our old little gambit there of “justifiable need”. Let’s limit where you can use them. Let’s go at the utilitarian value of having a carry permit and try to limit it to the maximum that we can. So, they passed what we call the Carry Killer law. Now, it was challenged in federal court, and we did get an injunction over a good chunk of the provisions. Then the State appealed, and they got a stay on the injunctive relief, meaning they became effective again, until the appellate court rules on it. Now, not all of them were enjoined, not all of them got the stay removing the injunction. So, what it means is, there were still some of the lower court findings of declaration of unconstitutional that were not stayed by the Appellate Court. So, what I’m going to do today is review with you where you can’t carry. Of course, if you are not otherwise prohibited in Jersey, then under Jersey law, you’re able to carry in any other places that don’t fall under the “sensitive place” restriction. None of this is discussing federal law. We still have federal law prohibiting carry everywhere on federal buildings, etc., and the post office and what have you, even though these things are being challenged as we speak as well.

EvanNappen 06:51
So, let’s review the sensitive places as to where you cannot carry currently, right now, as of today, and what of those sensitive places are not in effect. Then we’ll talk about some other things about Jersey carry that’s important for you to know. This is like a refresher course, so you don’t end up a GOFU in Jersey’s trap that they’ve laid for unsuspecting gun owners through the Carry Killer bill. The first place where you cannot carry, and keep in mind, you are prohibited from any of the following places, including in or upon any part of the buildings, grounds, or parking areas of these places. Now, if you happen to end up having to go to one of these places, then there is a provision that we’ll discuss a little bit later that allows you to secure the firearm, your handgun, in a certain way, in those prohibited places, parking spots. But keep in mind, you cannot carry in any part of the buildings, grounds, or parking areas except for the exception that we’ll discuss a little bit.

EvanNappen 08:22
Number one, you’re banned in Jersey, barred from Jersey, even with a carry permit, from any place that’s owned, or leased or under the control of the state, county or municipal government used for the purpose of government administration, including but not limited to, police stations. So, don’t carry in a police station. Don’t carry in a firehouse. Don’t carry in City Hall. You know, no place like that, which are used for government administration. By the way, you can see these “sensitive places” in the law, and it’s under N.J.S. 2C:58-4.6. I’ll have a link on my website and on the transcript so you could go to these

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if you wish to read them for yourself. If you have my book, of course, it’s in the law itself, in the back of the book. Explanations of these things are in the chapter on Carry Permits in the book. (New Jersey Gun Law, Page 49) You really should have my book. It’s the Bible on New Jersey gun law. Just scan the front cover to subscribe, and you’ll get the updates that you can access. Any of you that have the book may in fact know what I’m going to tell you now, but it can’t hurt to review it. If you want to get a copy of the Bible, New Jersey Gun Law by yours truly, which is over 500 pages with 120 topics in a question-and-answer format, you can go to EvanNappen.com. Right there. EvanNappen.com and buy a copy of the book.

EvanNappen 09:56
Since you are a gun person, you enjoy your firearms, and you would like to enjoy using these wonderful tools. I would strongly suggest that you check out WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, New Jersey, and they are premier. They have a fantastic facility. You can get great training. You can get your CCARE certificate there to get your carry license. Whether you’re a beginner or an expert or in between, they have courses for you. Their training and their range are second to none. You’ll be able to have a place to shoot right there in Lakewood, Central Jersey, with easy access right off the Parkway. They will treat you like family. I want to remind you again that on August 9, Friday, August 9 from 9am in the morning to 1pm, nine to one, Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman is going to be at WeShoot. The Master IDF Sniper. You probably heard my show. I hope you did. It was a phenomenal show with Colonel Hartman, and he’s going to be there. He trained over half a million soldiers and developed the firearms program for the IDF. He was fantastic, and it was an honor to have him on the show. You don’t want to miss that. So, make sure you mark your calendar for August 9 and get down to WeShoot. Take advantage of that great resource. You can find WeShoot on the web at weshootusa.com. WeShoot is a great place, and we’re lucky to have them.

EvanNappen 11:37
The second place you cannot carry is a courthouse, a courtroom, or any other premises used to conduct judicial or court administrative proceedings or function. So, anything like that where there’s a courthouse or court room or other premises like that. This is not an uncommon prohibition throughout the country. There does seem to be a number of courthouse prohibitions. People’s emotions can run high in courthouses, particularly in New Jersey, where the law is so unbelievably unfair. So, they don’t want you carrying in a courthouse. Three, any state, county or municipal Correctional Facility, or juvenile justice facility, a jail or any other place maintained by or for government entity for the detention of criminal suspects or offenders. All right, folks. Do not carry your gun in jail. I don’t think you have to write that one down. But, yeah, that’s a prohibited place. Four, a state contracted halfway house. Now they don’t define or explain what a state contracted halfway house is. It’s not like a state contracted halfway house has a big neon sign blinking saying, “state contracted halfway house”, but don’t end up in one of them with a gun or you’re in a prohibited place.

EvanNappen 13:06
A location being used as a polling place during the conduct of an election, and places used for the storage or tabulation of ballots, or for the commission of election fraud. No, I’m just kidding about the last part. They forgot to add the election fraud place, because that’s what they’re doing anyway. But you

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cannot carry at a polling place, or places used for the conduct of an election. That place restriction is far. You cannot carry within 100 feet of a place where there’s a public gathering, a demonstration, or an event is held for which a government permit is required during the conduct of such gathering, demonstration or event. This can be tricky, because notice, you can’t be within 100 feet of a public gathering, event or whatever held where a government permit is required, but it doesn’t mean they had to get one. So, if the event is taking place illegally, but a permit should have been obtained, then it still is a prohibited place.

EvanNappen 14:22
Seven, any school, college, university or other educational institution and on any school bus. Now, we’ve had an educational facility prohibition for a while in a separate section of our law under N.J.S. 2C:39-5.e. We have had educational facilities prohibited for a while, but they also added it into “sensitive places”. Now there are certain exemptions to sensitive places. But beware. The exemptions for sensitive places, such as the parking lot exemption for securing your gun, do not exempt you for an educational facility, property, school property, etc. under the 39-5 prohibition. So, you have to be very careful. You will not be able to have the exemption that we’re going to discuss later apply there because of the other law that prohibits that location.

EvanNappen 15:30
A childcare facility, including a daycare center, a nursery school, a preschool, a zoo, or a summer camp. Now, I love how in that little list, they put a zoo in there. I guess maybe a zoo does belong there given those places, but there you go. You cannot carry at a park, a beach, a recreational facility or an area owned or controlled by a state, county or local government unit or any part of such place, which is designated as a gun free zone by the governing authority based on considerations of public safety. You know, the favorite fallback of every anti-gunner is their false claim of public safety when in fact guns make places safer, but that’s rarely a consideration in New Jersey, of course, so beware. Number eleven, youth sports event, during and immediately preceding and following the conduct of the event, except that this provision shall not apply to participants of a youth sports event which is a firearms competition. Well, that’s nice. Because if guns are banned at a youth firearms competition, it is really hard to compete with firearms. How nice.

EvanNappen 17:03
Twelve, publicly owned or leased library or museum. So, don’t go pull a “night at the museum” deal there and think you can defend yourself because that won’t fly in Jersey. A shelter for the homeless, an emergency shelter for the homeless, a basic center shelter program, a shelter for homeless or runaway youth, Children’s Shelter, child care shelter, shelter for victims of domestic violence, or any shelter licensed by or under the control of the Juvenile Justice Commission or the Department of Children and Families. Wow. A lot of shelters out there that I didn’t even know existed. Don’t carry your gun at those shelters. And how are you going to know that these other shelters are under the control of the Juvenile Justice Commission or the Department of Children? I don’t know. I guess you’re supposed to have like ESP or something like that. You know, I have ESP. It’s an extra stupid personality. But anyway. Fourteen, a community residence for persons with developmental disabilities, head injuries, or terminal illnesses, or any other residential setting licensed by the Department of Human Services or the

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Department of Health. So, there you go. How are you going to know it? I don’t know. But watch out for those community residences.

EvanNappen 18:38
Fifteen, a bar or restaurant where alcohol is served. And any other site or facility where alcohol is sold for consumption on the premises. So, I always get the question. What about the Bring Your Own alcohol deal? What about that? Well, look at what the first part says. A bar or restaurant where alcohol is served. Are you going to be serving out of that bottle, the alcohol that you brought? Well, lo and behold, look at what it says. So, do not carry in a bring your own place for alcohol, places where it’s served, or any other place where it’s sold for consumption. Can you bring your gun to the liquor store? Yes, because it’s not sold for consumption there. That’s the difference. But not the bar. Not the restaurant. So, beware of that. Let me also mention, by the way, we did get an injunction in the lower court, where you could carry in bars or restaurants where alcohol is served, but then it was stayed by the Appellate Court. So, now it’s back in effect. The same as the 100 feet of a public gathering which was stayed by Judge Bumb, I mean enjoined, and then that was reversed currently. So, the ban is back in place. The zoo was allowed, and now it’s not. The park and the beach and the recreational facility, that one was okay, but now it’s not.

EvanNappen 20:51
This is why it’s very important that you support our state Association, that you be a member of our state Association. There are still about 10 more of these to go through, but I just want to remind you that the Association are the folks that are battling this, as we speak. We want them to win and knock these prohibitions out so that we can remain defenders and not victims in these places. So, you should join the Association. They have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton. They’re battling the assault firearm ban, so-called, which is really just modern sporting rifles, of course, and the standard capacity magazine ban. We should see some movement on all these cases shortly. My good friend and colleague, Dan Schmutter, is spearheading those efforts. He, too, is a proud member of the state Association, and so should you. Go to anjrpc.org and join today. ANJRPC.org.

EvanNappen 21:58
It is a prohibited place under number 16 to carry your handgun, even with a carry permit, at a class five cannabis retailer or medical cannabis dispensary, including any consumption areas licensed or permitted by the cannabis regulatory commission. So, do not carry your gun at a weed shop. Now, of course, New Jersey can blatantly violate federal law and allow for the sale where they become, because you know they get a piece of it, one of the largest drug dealers in the country. That’s okay. But don’t you carry your gun there where they’re blatantly breaking federal law. Make sure you don’t do that. Seventeen, a privately or publicly owned and operated entertainment facility within this state, including but not limited to, a theater, a stadium, a museum, an arena, a racetrack or other place where performances, concerts, exhibits, games or contests are held. Those are still prohibited places. The Association in its lawsuit knocked that one out, but the Appellate Division put it back in, temporarily. The battle is ongoing. So, maybe we’ll knock that one out. Again, I believe we will, and I hope so. But for now, be careful. Don’t violate it. Don’t be a GOFU.

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EvanNappen 23:40
Eighteen, a casino and related facilities, including but not limited to, the appurtenant hotels, retail premises, restaurant and bar facilities, and entertainment and recreational venues located within the casino property. This might even include marinas, if they are casino property. So, be aware of that. This, too, was stayed/enjoined. So, it’s back in effect. But even with that, the casinos banded together, and privately they all decided to ban guns from the premises. So, I would not give any business to New Jersey casinos. They are anti-gun. It’s that simple, folks. Why do you give your money to any organization that opposes your Second Amendment rights? Don’t do it. You want to gamble? Go for it. Just not in a New Jersey casino. Screw them.

EvanNappen 24:43
Nineteen, a plant or operation that produces, converts, distributes or stores energy, or converts one form of energy to another. Boy, is that broad enough? What the hell are they even talking about? What? If you’re standing next to a solar panel or something? I have no clue. But plainly power plant energy, whatever. I mean, what if you’re charging your Tesla? Is it a problem? I don’t know. It’s so broad, overbroad, there that it’s ridiculous. But there you go. Twenty, an airport or public transportation hub is prohibited. Twenty-one, a health care facility, including but not limited to a general hospital, special hospital, a psychiatric hospital, a public health center, diagnostic center, a treatment center, a rehabilitation center, an extended care facility, a skilled nursing home, a nursing home. So, what’s that? An unskilled nursing home. I don’t know. Intermediate care facility, tuberculosis hospital, chronic disease hospital, maternity hospital, an outpatient clinic, a dispensary, that’s like a drugstore. Beware. Assisted living center, home health care agency, residential treatment facility, residential health care facility, medical office, or ambulatory care facility.

EvanNappen 26:15
So, you cannot go to your doctor’s office with your gun. What if you go into CVS? There’s a dispensary there in the back. Well, in the litigation, it was determined that it’s only the part that’s a sensitive place. So, if you go into CVS, but you don’t go to the drugstore part, the pharmacy part, then you’re okay. The rest of CVS is not prohibited. But the dispensary is. Now what about medical offices? What if you’re a doctor and you want to carry? Many doctors do because they’re targets not just for money, but possibly even for drugs that they may have. Can a doctor carry in their own medical office? The answer to that is yes, because of one of the exemptions to sensitive places. One of the exemptions are the classic old exemptions under N.J.S. 2C:39-6, particularly subsection e., which exempts one’s home and/or place of business. So, if you are a doctor and it is your medical office that you own, then you’re able to carry under that exemption in your place of business. That exempts you from the sensitive place prohibition. So, keep that in mind. But if it’s not your office, if you don’t own it, then you cannot carry there.

EvanNappen 27:51
Twenty-two, a facility licensed or regulated by the Department of Human Services, Department of Children and Families, or Department of Health, other than a health care facility, that provides addiction or mental health treatment or support services. So, you’re banned. You’re barred from carrying your gun. Twenty-three, a public location being used for making motion picture or television images for theatrical, commercial, or educational purposes during the time such location has been used for that purpose. So, when they banned as a sensitive place having guns at motion picture and television

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locations, we call that the Alec Baldwin prohibition. And of course, throughout all that hysteria was why they put it in, but Judge Bumb issued an injunction on that, and it was not disturbed by the Appellate Division because, frankly, New Jersey realized that in their zest in doing this, they were hurting Hollywood, their buddies in Hollywood, you know, those huge Democrat donors. So, they’re happy that that one is no longer in effect and has remained not in effect. So, there you go. Alec is free in New Jersey to have his gun there if he’s making a movie. Unless, of course, he becomes a convicted felon over his problem.

EvanNappen 29:32
Twenty-four, private property is a prohibited place. I’m going to explain how this works. Private property including but not limited to, residential, commercial, industrial, agricultural, institutional or undeveloped property, unless the owner has provided express consent or has posted a sign indicating that it is permissible to carry on the premises a concealed handgun with a valid and lawfully issued permit under N.J.S. 2C:58-4, provided that nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to affect the authority to keep or carry a firearm established under subsection e. of N.J.S. 2C:39-6 exemption, and that’s possession in one’s home. So, here, it looks like all private property is prohibited unless there’s some sign that says we love guns, come on in. Otherwise, we were barred. However, that’s not the case. Because in the litigation, Judge Bumb issued a stay on this, and then it got modified so that the current state of that exemption rolls as follows. When it comes to private property, the question is, is the private property open to the public or not? If the private property is open to the public, then you don’t need a sign. You don’t need advanced permission. As long as the private property is not otherwise a “sensitive place” and you have a carry permit, you can carry your handgun there. So, you can walk into that convenience store, even though it’s a private property owned by a business, you can walk into the convenience store with your gun. Not a problem. You can do that because it’s open to the public.

EvanNappen 31:32
But what if you’re going to your friend’s house? Well, that’s not open to the public. So, your friend had better have given you permission to have your gun there or have that sign out there. You know, the “we love guns” sign. If not, don’t carry on private property that is not open to the public. That’s how the private property “sensitive place” currently operates. Now, some of you may say, well, what about if I go to a store and it says, no guns? The opposite, no guns, or it has one of those dopey signs from the Attorney General. We don’t want any guns here. Well, what happens there is this is. It is not a sensitive place to carry where there is a no gun sign, but it is a trespass if you do. Because property owners have the right over their property, to the degree permitted by law to say who can come on their property, even private property owned by commercial establishment. They can say, for example, you know, if you don’t have shoes on, we don’t want you in here, or no dogs allowed except for service animals. Well, when they say no guns, it falls into that same category, and if you ignore that no guns sign, then you can be charged with trespass. So, beware of that little nuance on that one. Twenty-five, any other place in which the carrying of a firearm is prohibited by statute or rule or regulation promulgated by a federal or state agency. Good, I hope, you know every single rule and reg ever promulgated by the federal or state government. Because that’s what that one is saying. Yeah, just a little overbroad. Now, those are the official 25 sensitive places.

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EvanNappen 33:49
What if you end up in a parking lot of one of those “sensitive places” and you’re carrying. What do you do? Well, if you’re not within that N.J.S. 2C:39-6e. exemption or you’re not within an exemption because you’re law enforcement under subsection a. or retired law enforcement under subsection l. of N.J.S. 2C:39-6 or law enforcement under subsection c., then if you’re carrying in a vehicle, there are things you need to know. The exemption to sensitive places is one thing when you get in the parking lot. But there’s also a vehicle standalone prohibition that’s not part of the big 25, and this causes other confusion. The vehicle prohibition said that if you are carrying even with a permit to carry, you were not allowed to carry your permitted handgun loaded on your person in your own vehicle. We called that the Car Jacker Protection law because that’s all it was doing. This was prohibiting you from defending yourself and your loved ones from crime occurring while in your vehicle or while you’re driving your vehicle, etc. However, that entire vehicle prohibition, which is that stand alone, not part of the 25, but still a prohibited place, if you will, that was stayed by Judge Bumb, and has remained in place. So, what it means is you can carry your permitted handgun loaded, concealed on your person in your vehicle. It is allowed.

EvanNappen 35:56
The problem is folks who read that don’t realize it. I recently learned of a situation where a person was attacked in their vehicle. They had locked their gun up in the vehicle thinking that they weren’t allowed to have it on them in their vehicle. They were beaten to inches within their death. Whereas if that law was not there confusing and stopping people, that person would not have been viciously assaulted and almost killed. So, you can carry in your vehicle as long as you’re licensed to do so, but it needs to be loaded and holstered on your person. Don’t have it in the console. Don’t have it in one of those vehicle holsters. Carry it as you would outside of your vehicle, loaded and concealed on your person. That is the way to do it.

EvanNappen 36:51
Now, when you’re in that parking lot of a “sensitive place”, the exemption allows you to transport it to that parking lot. Then while you’re in that parking area, you can put your handgun unloaded and contained in a closed and securely fastened case, gun box, or locked unloaded in the trunk. Now, what I recommend is, if you have invested in your carry gun, your training, your CCARE, you listen to this show, all that great stuff, your time and your money, buy the proper car gun transport container. One where it cables to the bottom of your seat with a steel cable and is a lockbox. Unload your gun, lock it in the box, and slide the box under the seat. It is now secured. You are a responsible gun owner. Not only do you meet the criteria under the law for that narrow exemption when you enter a sensitive place, but you also have secured your gun from theft and demonstrated the responsibility that you undertake. It’s in your own best interest to do it as well. So, make sure you have one of those boxes in your car, and make sure you can always secure your gun properly. In case you have to go in an emergency to a healthcare facility, you can secure it etc., anything like that. It’s very important that you do that and not end up as a GOFU.

EvanNappen 38:32
So, folks, those are the key prohibited places. Keep in mind that the sensitive places that are still blocked. The sensitive places that are no longer prohibiting you includes loaded in your car to fight off

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carjackers, private property as I’ve explained how that split works, and public film locations. If you’re Alec Baldwin, keep that in mind. This is how it works. The others that were knocked out, but then temporarily reinstated. Hopefully, those and many others of these outrageous prohibitions on us, will go. It’s your state Association that is spearheading that litigation to expand our ability to carry and defend ourselves in New Jersey. To not be victims, but instead be defenders.

EvanNappen 39:47
Although we talked about a lot of things here, I still have a special GOFU to share with you, and this GOFU is actually from a letter. It’s from Ed. Ed says, just listened to your podcast about the assault shotgun requirement. I bought a Beretta 1301. The store told me that since the gun has a three-inch chamber and can only take 6 three-inch rounds that it’s legal. The gun will take seven, 2 3/4-inch rounds. But I was told not to do that and that I will be okay. They said they got this information from the state police. Any input? Yes, there is a legal term that completely addresses that advice that you were given, and that legal term is bullshit. Okay? And here’s why, folks. New Jersey’s assault firearm law is very clear. It says in the statutory part that you cannot have a semi-automatic shotgun with a magazine capacity that exceeds six rounds. It also cannot have a folding stock. It cannot have a pistol grip. Six rounds are the limit on the semi- automatic shotgun.

EvanNappen 41:20
When you go to the Beretta website, it says it has, and this is from the Beretta’s website, a factory magazine capacity of seven plus one. (https://www.beretta.com/en-us/product/1301-tactical-FA0004) Now, forget the plus one part. It says seven and six is the limit. Seven is more than six. I don’t care if it can also take a three-inch chamber round and hold less, or a three-and-a-half-inch chamber and can hold less. It will fit and function with two and three quarters, and it holds seven. It’s an assault firearm in New Jersey. But don’t worry, all you’re risking is 10 years in State Prison with a minimum mandatory three and a half years – no chance of parole. For following that bullshit advice. That’s all. Yeah, that’s why it’s a GOFU, folks. So, please, don’t be the next GOFU, especially on that Beretta.

EvanNappen 42:31
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 42:41
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E192_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 191-Guns and Penises Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 191SUMMARY KEYWORDS

firearm, new jersey, guns, carry, law, gun owner, gun ownership, gun, automatic shotgun, renewal, required, assault, permit, bayonet mount, requirement, semi, insurance, shotguns, put, criteria

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, you may have heard. It’s kind of like a thing that the anti-gunners and folks, particularly feminists, arguably radical feminist, like to push this a lot. They like to say that men who like guns, oh, they’re compensating for their small penises. Right? You’ve probably heard that BS out there before about that. Well, what’s really interesting is somebody’s group, an anti-gun group, believe it or not, decided to actually research that topic. Yes. They are going to decide and see if, you know, how do guns play out in terms of sexual satisfaction for gun owners? This is from an article by one of my favorite authors, who I’ve mentioned before, Dean Weingarten at AmmoLand. You should all subscribe to AmmoLand. It’s a free service, and they’ll send you the daily news feed.

Evan Nappen 01:49
This article is about that very research on those who own guns. (https://www.ammoland.com/2024/06/research-finds-men-who-own-guns-have-greater-sexual- satisfaction/#axzz8dtg6VuAi) What’s really interesting about this research is that it shows a significant correlation between the possession of guns and a man’s satisfaction with his sexual equipment. That’s right. That’s right. So, as the antis like to put out there this other opposite view, it’s really a fantasy and a falsehood that they’re putting out there about this situation. For example. Dean Weingarten in the article quotes the Huffington Post, right the HuffPost, which is a known left wing site. In the article from the HuffPost in 2016, “the compulsion to own firearms stems from an unconscious need to compensate for a deep-seated psychological sense of insecurity and inadequacy in terms of power: in males, specifically for having a small or smaller-than-desired penis.”

Evan Nappen 03:23
Well, guess what? Researchers decided to actually test this to see if this in fact is true. They decided

to investigate it. This research and all was funded by a group that wants to disarm the American population. It was financially supported by an organization called “Change the Ref”, whose “mission is shifting America’s social response to gun violence. . .”, there you go, “gun violence”, not criminal violence, of course. You know that same old BS, “gun violence”. “. . . by uniting creativity, activism, disruption, and education.” The researchers state that although “Change the Ref” has a clear anti-gun stance, it had no role in the planning or implementation of the study. And I gotta say, I guess that’s actually true. Because this study was published in the American Journal of Men’s Health.

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Evan Nappen 04:35
Guess what they found out, folks? Exactly the opposite, the opposite. They found that the more male gun owners were satisfied with their penis size, the more they were likely to own guns, to own more guns, and to own military-style rifles. That’s right. The more guns, particularly the more so-called assault firearms you own, the more satisfied you are with your penis size, sexuality, and sexual performance. Imagine that. Yep. And what’s interesting here is Mr. Weingarten quotes from the study, a nice little abstract here, in which the study said, “we formally examine the association between penis size dissatisfaction and gun ownership in America. The primary hypothesis, derived from the psychosexual theory of gun ownership, asserts that men who are more dissatisfied with the size of their penises will be more likely to personally own guns. To test this hypothesis, we used data collected from the 2023 Masculinity, Sexual Health, and Politics (MSHAP) survey, a national probability sample of 1,840 men, and regression analysis to model personal gun ownership as a function of penis size dissatisfaction, experiences with penis enlargement, social desirability, masculinity, body mass, mental health, and a range of sociodemographic characteristics.”

Evan Nappen 06:42
“We find that men who are more dissatisfied with the size of their penises are less likely to personally own guns across outcomes, including any gun ownership, military-style rifle ownership, and total number of guns owned. The inverse association between penis size dissatisfaction and gun ownership is linear; however, the association is weakest among men ages 60 and older. With these findings in mind, we failed to observe any differences in personal gun ownership between men who have and have not attempted penis enlargement. To our knowledge, this is the first study to formally examine the association between penis size and personal gun ownership in America. Our findings fail to support the psychosexual theory of gun ownership.” Imagine that! This garbage put out by the other side, the anti- Second Amendment crowd, to try to disparage men who own guns by saying that they have small manhood and are dissatisfied. And it’s just the opposite. As a matter of fact, the guys that are most satisfied own the most guns and own military style rifles.

Evan Nappen 08:26
Now, let me just say, I’ve already come out on this program in the past as being an ammosexual, and I know that most of my listeners are ammosexuals. But now ammosexuality has even another bonus. Because if you love guns, if you are a zealous advocate for the Second Amendment, and if you are an ammosexual who has come out, well, I guess you’re also declaring that you are satisfied with your sexuality and your penis size. And in fact, you’re damn proud of it. The more guns and the more assault firearm guns you have, the better for you. So, I just want to go on the record today, folks, and say, I own a lot of guns. Yes, I do. And I own a lot of military-style firearms. Yeah. And I own a Barrett 50. So, what does that tell you? I don’t know. But it’s out there. And I’m sure you can all now take pride in not only all the guns that you own, but what it actually means. So, don’t let those misinformed folks ever tell you otherwise, because the scientific studies are out there, telling us, of course, what we all already knew.

Evan Nappen 10:10

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Since you are a gun person and you enjoy your firearms and are proud to be an ammosexual and you would like to enjoy using these wonderful tools, I would strongly suggest that you check out WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, New Jersey, and they have fantastic facility. You can get great training. You can get your CCARE certificate there to get your carry license. Whether you’re a beginner, an expert, or in between, they have courses for you, and their range is second to none. You’ll be able to have a place to shoot right there in Central Jersey, easy access, right off the Parkway. They will treat you like family.

Evan Nappen 11:14
I want to remind you again that on August 9, August 9, at 9am in the morning, nine to one, WeShoot will have Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman who is going to be there live. The master IDF (Israel Defense Forces) sniper. You probably heard my show. I hope you did. It was a phenomenal show with Colonel Hartman. He’s going to be there at WeShoot. He trained over half a million soldiers and developed the firearms program for the IDF. He is fantastic. It was an honor to have him on the show, and you don’t want to miss meeting him. So, make sure you mark your calendar for August 9 and get down to WeShoot. Take advantage of that great resource. You can find WeShoot on the web at weshootusa.com WeShootusa.com They have a great website with phenomenal photography. They pride themselves in their photography. You’ll love it. WeShoot is a great place, and we’re lucky to have them.

Evan Nappen 12:25
I also want to talk to you about the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the premier gun rights group for New Jersey. Their members are super important to the fight for our gun rights, and their members are also gun owners. And you know what that means now, don’t you? Well, you need to join! Make sure that you’re a part of the solution. They’re the folks that are in the courts as we speak on major cases. We should see some outcome very shortly on the assault firearm ban, where New Jersey banned assault firearms. They are trying to stop us from having greater sexual satisfaction, obviously, by that ban. And that’s being challenged. The ban on large capacity magazines, notice the emphasis on “large capacity” magazines. We have the Carry Killer bill, again, trying to stop us from exercising and utilizing our right to have a gun and carry it. These are the things that the Association does and more. They have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton, who is constantly on the alert for any of the shenanigans they’re trying to pull down there. They have a great newsletter, the best in the state. You’ll get the email alerts, and you’ll be able to take action. Make sure you belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs at anjrpc.org. ANJRPC.org

Evan Nappen 14:20
You also need to have the Bible of New Jersey gun law. That is my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s over 500 pages. I wonder if having a big gun law book also means that you are extremely endowed and have a great sex life. I think it does mean that. I think I can vouch for that, but whatever. You want to get a hold of Evan’s book, New Jersey Gun Law. It will help you navigate the matrix of New Jersey gun laws so that you don’t become a victim of New Jersey gun law. It will keep you legal. Get your copy, get it today. Go to my website, EvanNappen.com. You can order your copy of New Jersey Gun Law at EvanNappen.com.

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Evan Nappen 15:26
Now, I got some great letters, and there’s kind of a repeating subject that has come up lately. And that subject is as follows. This is from Fedde. Fedde says, my New Jersey carry renewal is January 2025. Do I need to requalify with my handgun? Also, what is the rule for guns I can carry after renewal? So, what about the gun renewal? Then I have another letter of which there are many other letters. This one’s from an instructor by the way, Bob. He’s a New Jersey certified CCW instructor. My earliest students are now calling me and asking what they have to do to renew their permits. Has Trenton put out a clear set of requirements for permit renewal? Could you please do a podcast about this, so my students and I will know what is required. I tell all my students to subscribe to your podcast AND they are required to listen to show #157 (NJ Carry – What You Must Know Now) as part of my course.

Evan Nappen 16:33
Well, thank you, Bob. That show is important and may be deserved to be repeated every so often for new subscribers until the courts change the stupid rules. When they change the stupid rules, I’ll do a show about that. So, what about renewals? What about carry permit renewals? There are some important things I want you to know about renewals. I’ve been seeing even cases where issuing authorities don’t know the rules. Judges don’t know the rules. Let’s talk about the basics, right away, about the CCARE. So, the CCARE Certificate is your qualification that you must have to get your carry permit. How long is a CCARE Certificate valid for? Do you have to retake CCARE every time you do a renewal? Or is it something that is not necessary every time? What’s the rule? What’s the standard? What’s the law?

Evan Nappen 17:50
Well, let me give you it with specificity. I’m not just going to tell you what it is. I’m going to tell you where it is and exactly what it says so that you will know for a fact. Now, in summary, even before I give you that law, the bottom line is this. If your CCARE Certificate is less than two years old and you’re renewing your carry permit, it is valid. You do not have to get a new CCARE certification. Now you will find this, specifically, in case you need it, under N.J.S. 2C:58-4. (Permits to carry handguns.), and it is under sub section d., small letter D for dog, (3). N.J.S. 2C:58-4.d.(3)

Evan Nappen 18:55
I’ll read it for you. It says under the requirements, (3) has completed the training requirements established pursuant to subsection g. of this section, provided that any requirements for classroom instruction and target training shall not be required for a renewal applicant who completed the instruction and training when obtaining a permit to carry a handgun issued within the previous two years;” There you have it, folks. It’s not required for you to do it again if you’ve completed it within the previous two years. So, don’t be told otherwise. That’s the law. That’s the fact, and you have the statute. You now know exactly where it says it. Do not go and retake it, unless you want to. But there’s no requirement to do so. I’m now hearing that some departments are saying, oh, we will accept it if it’s less than six months old. Oh, yeah? Well, I’ll tell you the legal answer to that. It’s called bullshit. Okay? No. No, it’s two years. Read the law. Follow the law. Make believe that’s your job. Okay? Because there it is, in black and white. There is no ambiguity there whatsoever, folks. None whatsoever. So, don’t get pushed around on that one.

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Evan Nappen 20:43
Let me just say this. I recently received a call from somebody who fought their denial for their permit. The judge agreed to grant the permit. Now, I didn’t represent this person in this court, but I may represent them after this. The judge ordered the issuance of his permit. However, the judge demanded that they have proof of insurance, proof of insurance, which is absolutely not required. Now, the statute, the carry killer statute, under N.J.S. 2C:58-4.3 mandated liability insurance. But the liability insurance mandate was enjoined, an injunction was granted against that law by Judge Bumb in Federal court. Even on the appeal that is now pending, that was not disturbed. That was not stayed. In other words, the injunction is still in place, as we speak. There is no insurance requirement by way of injunction brought by the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs (ANJRPC). There’s no requirement to have liability insurance. In fact, the liability insurance that New Jersey required can’t even be issued, because they are demanding that the insurance company insure an intentional act. Insurance companies don’t insure against intentional acts. They don’t insure if someone purposely kills somebody or shoots somebody. It’s not an accident. It’s not negligence. It’s an intentional act. The law required that for the insurance is outrageous and wrong, and no company can even provide it. But it’s been stayed.

Evan Nappen 23:07
Of course, the irony of the whole damn thing is that you may remember. A number of years ago before the carry permit law, Governor Murphy got up there and said, I’m going to, by executive order, ban gun owner protection insurance, that some companies like NRA. Remember the Carry Guard fiasco, where they were doing gun owner insurance? Murphy banned that by executive order, saying, I’m not going to allow murder insurance in New Jersey. That’s what he called it. Murder insurance. However, it isn’t murder insurance. Those are gun owner protection programs, nothing to do with murder insurance. But what does he sign in the Carry Killer bill? A law requiring actual murder insurance, which no insurance company will actually provide. These people are unbelievable. It’s just insanity here.

Evan Nappen 24:15
But luckily, a great Federal judge like Judge Bumb enjoined the liability insurance requirement. Liability insurance is not required. It cannot be required. It’s unconstitutional to require it as per the Federal court. So, in this case, where the judge has mandated this, it is flat out wrong. He cannot require something that is blatantly unconstitutional and found so in Federal court. And something particularly that is unobtainable to begin with. So, this is, of course, what we have to constantly deal with in New Jersey, and it never ends.

Evan Nappen 25:03
Now I did get another letter wondering and asking about whether you can carry in state parks. Apparently, some other websites may list that you can do this or there’s confusion. Let me just straighten it out now right now. You see there is some confusion here. The bottom line is that you should not carry in state parks because under the sensitive places’ restrictions, at the moment, we’re fighting this. But under number three of sensitive places, parks and other recreational spaces, including locations where children congregate, but it’s not limited to those locations, parks and other recreational spaces are currently a sensitive place that you are prohibited from carry. So, don’t make that mistake and carry in state parks, until we get the outcome from the current Association of New Jersey Rifle &

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Pistol Clubs’ litigation that is ongoing. Hopefully we’ll knock out all, if not most, of those sensitive places which were designed to limit our ability to lawfully defend ourselves. So that we are not victims of crime, but rather defenders against crime. And that’s really the key.

Evan Nappen 27:02
Every week, of course, on the show I do the GOFU. A very popular segment the GOFU. The GOFU is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. The reason we talk about GOFUs is these are expensive lessons, mistakes, problems, that others experience, and you can learn from them on the cheap. You learn from them for free by listening to Gun Lawyer. So, this week’s GOFU is an actual case. I’ve come across it a number of times, and it has to do with what shotguns are prohibited under the assault firearm ban. It’s currently being challenged, but we haven’t killed it yet. So, you still have to be very careful.

Evan Nappen 27:55
Now, when it comes to shotguns, there’s a different criteria than the compliant criteria that you might think of with rifles. Because the rifle criteria, as we’ve discussed many times, involves having more than one offending criteria. The arbitrary features that the Government has somehow decided makes a gun intrinsically evil. This includes a bayonet mount, a flash suppressor, a threaded barrel, a pistol grip, a telescoping or folding stock, or the ever popular grenade launcher. I know you’re all going out grenade launching this weekend. Those are the features that apply to rifles that are semi-automatic and accept detachable magazine.

Evan Nappen 28:52
But it’s a completely different criteria for shotguns. Now this particular individual actually purchased a shotgun that was a semi-automatic shotgun from a dealer in New Jersey. Others as well. I’ve heard from other dealers and other problems. Here’s the deal. When it comes to semi- automatic shotguns in New Jersey, you are prohibited from having a semi-automatic shotgun with any one of the following features. It’s not a two-feature deal like with rifles. If you have a semi-auto shotgun and you have any one of these features, then it’s an assault firearm under the current law. Those features are one of three features, and any one of these makes it verboten.

Evan Nappen 29:44
First feature, if it has a pistol grip. So, any semi-automatic shotgun with a pistol grip is an assault firearm. Period. Any semi-automatic shotgun with a folding stock is an assault firearm. Any semi- automatic shotgun with a magazine capacity exceeding six rounds is an assault firearm. That’s right, folks. If that tube on your shotgun holds over six rounds, then that alone makes it an assault firearm. There are a number of semi-auto shotguns that hold over six rounds.

Evan Nappen 30:36
Now to add further to the confusion. If you actually read through the Attorney General Guidelines, the ’96 guidelines with the compliant factors that we just talked about for rifles, they have a section about shotguns. When the Attorney General promulgated that guideline, he just took verbatim the 1994 Crime Bill, you know, the bill that was a crime, but anyway. They took that criteria and said no, this is what substantially identical means under Jersey law, which was an absurdity because the Federal law wasn’t passed till four years after the Jersey law was passed.

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Evan Nappen 31:16
But anyway, when he cited that he went with the federal definition under the crime bill which has since expired in 2004. It’s been dead ever since then, but not in New Jersey because we adopted that as our definition of “substantially identical”. This says five rounds but that is flat out wrong. It’s not five. It’s six. New Jersey’s statute says six. If you have a semi-automatic shotgun and it holds over six rounds, you’ve got a problem. You’re looking at a potential charge of assault firearm and that is extraordinarily serious. Ten years in State Prison, minimum mandatory three and a half years, no chance of parole, no exception. So, beware. You don’t want to have that GOFU on you.

Evan Nappen 32:08
Now, let me just also say that if you have a pump action shotgun, a Mossberg 590, for example, a pump action. The assault firearm semi-auto shotgun criteria does not apply. You can have a pump shotgun, like a Mossberg 590, and it can hold nine shots. No problem. It can have a folding stock, no problem. It can have a pistol grip, no problem. It can have a heat shield, no problem. It can have a bayonet mount, no problem. You can put all the whistles and bells you want on your pump action shotgun. You can get a 590, you know the M590A1, the military issue one, that has a heat shield, that has a bayonet mount, and you can lock in an M7 bayonet or an M9 bayonet that fits an AR right on it. You can have that heat shroud, have nine shots, have a pistol grip and a folding stock, and you are 100% legal in New Jersey for that gun. Because it’s a pump action. You can trick out your 870 the same way. Why? Because it’s a pump. You want to make your Ithaca 37? No problem. It’s a pump. Any pump shotgun. Not a problem. Not an assault firearm But with semi-auto shotguns, be careful. Don’t be a GOFU. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 32:22
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in his broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E191_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

First Name *

Constant Contact Use. Please leave this field blank.

View Details

Episode 190-Gun Unsafety GroupsAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 190SUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun, firearm, new jersey, law, rifle, put, safety, immediate family members, dealer, folks, rights, transfer, muzzleloader, mikey, guns, disclose, lieutenant colonel, switchblade, idf, state

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, these anti-gun groups, the entire anti-gun propaganda movement, no longer go forward saying they’re anti-gun. They don’t say they want to take away the Second Amendment, even though they do. In fact, they’re going to have to push that, given the trifecta of wins in the Supreme Court. But what they try to put out there to soft sell their radical anti- rights agenda is gun safety. We just want gun safety laws. Gun safety. I mean, they don’t know jack about gun safety. They think any gun law that takes away gun rights is somehow enhancing gun safety. But that’s not what gun safety is about. Gun Safety is about the safe handling of firearms. Not the banning of firearms. Not taking away our rights to possess guns and defend ourselves and carry guns and to do all those things lawfully. That has nothing to do with gun safety. So, they don’t actually do training courses. They don’t actually put forward materials on gun safety, but this is what they promote. They call it gun safety, and then sell their destruction of our rights under that banner. Then their cohorts in the media will run with it and say, oh, a Gun Safety Group wants to do this or that.

Evan Nappen 02:00
So, this I found particularly rich and delightful. And that was what happened in Maine. Now this is from an article written by Dean Weingarten, who’s one of my favorite gun writers. You can find him on AmmoLand. His articles are always excellent. I always love what Dean writes, and I’m a big fan of Dean Weingarten. So, if you want to read his stuff, and I would strongly recommend that you do, subscribe to AmmoLand Shooting Sports News. (https://www.ammoland.com/) Every day they will send you a news feed of the top gun stories, and a lot of it is original material from great writers. Dean is one of them. In this article, it’s entitled “Gun Control Group has Negligent Discharge at Police Station.” (https://www.ammoland.com/2024/06/gun-control-group-has-negligent-discharge-at-police- station/#axzz8dEjicRrE) This is just hilarious. Luckily, no one was injured or wouldn’t be so funny.

Evan Nappen 03:13
But this anti-gun organization known as Humanium Metal, I’m not kidding, this is their libtard name for their group. Humanium Metal was destroying firearms at a Maine Police Department at Old Orchard Beach. The firearms were collected as part of a push by a disarmament group, an anti-2A disarmament group, called, ready for this, folks? The Maine Gun Safety Coalition. Of course, they put gun safety in their name. They’re out to get our rights, take them away, etc. So, the Maine Gun Safety Coalition, while in the process of destruction, one of the firearms discharged! That’s right. So much for gun safety

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for the Maine Gun Safety Coalition. Not that they actually do anything about or even know anything about Gun Safety. They’re just the Gun Safety Coalition so they can sell us their garbage in taking away all right. So, what happened was this. The Humanium Metal organization was working with the Maine Gun Safety Coalition, which is basically the Maine anti-gun coalition, and they were destroying firearms (collected by local Maine police departments). Folks who turned in their guns and wanted to have a safe disposal, safe disposal. Apparently, the Humanium Metal group doesn’t know what the hell they’re doing, because a muzzleloading firearm that was turned in for destruction, that they had to destruct, discharged!

Evan Nappen 05:13
So, what they do is they use a chop saw in destroying perfectly fine firearms, somehow thinking they’re doing good by doing this. On one hand, they are doing good by doing it because the less used guns there are, it means more new guns get sold by manufacturers and dealers. It does, in that regard at least, help the firearms business in America. I mean, on the other hand, it’s sad to see any gun destroyed. It’s kind of like the effect after the war, when America dumped its surplus jeeps and all kinds of army surplus into the ocean or otherwise destroyed it so they wouldn’t ruin the business of manufacturing. They didn’t want to harm that. So, they got rid of all this fine equipment, so that manufacturers could continue to do business and make money. So, I guess, inadvertently, they’re aiding the gun industry. And for that, I’m glad. But, of course, their approach is to make this political statement, and they use the cover of gun safety.

Evan Nappen 06:23
You know, when you have a muzzleloader, the charge in a muzzleloader is black powder. Those of you who know, if you don’t shoot your muzzleloader, the charge remains in the gun. There are even devices made using gas, like co2 or other propellants, that you can blow out a charge you haven’t used. Otherwise, you may have to use a rod with a screw on the end of it. You know, those screw jagged deals, so you can pull out the lead ball. It’s kind of a pain, but that’s another way. There are other ways. Even if you have a charge in the muzzleloader, if you don’t have a flint or a percussion cap in it, then it won’t normally fire if you pull the hammer because there’s no way to initiate the charge. But here, whoever had this muzzleloader, didn’t bother to check it. As many of you know, when you have a muzzleloader, you take out the ramrod, and you drop the ramrod down the barrel and see if it goes all the way to the breech block. If the ramrod doesn’t go to the breech block, that is a good indication that the muzzleloader has a charge in it.

Evan Nappen 07:46
Apparently, the Maine Gun Safety Coalition doesn’t know about safety with firearms and muzzleloaders. When they took the chop saw, it says here, I’m quoting from the AmmoLand article, Old Orchard Beach Police Department press release, “As one of the firearms was being cut the weapon discharged expelling around through the barrel. The round was found to have struck two unoccupied vehicles within the parking lot. Through initial investigation the involved weapon was identified as a muzzle loader style rifle. It was determined that the heat from the cutting tool ignited gun powder still left within the barrel which discharged the round.” So much for their fraud of gun safety. Anytime you hear those words about some group pushing “gun safety”, immediately ask yourself, Is this just an anti- gun group using the cover of gun safety to sell their garbage and their destruction of our rights? Or is it

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a bona fide organization that actually promotes gun safety, trains people in gun safety, teaches gun safety, and is themselves familiar with gun safety. So, don’t fall for that trap.

Evan Nappen 09:15
Interestingly, just switching gears, Knife Rights, the national group that fights for our knife rights. (https://kniferights.org/) Remember the Second Amendment isn’t the right to keep and bear guns. It’s the right to keep and bear arms, and knives are arms. Well, Knife Rights has been fighting a challenge to the Federal Switchblade Act (FSA). We’ve talked about it on the show before. They brought it on Second Amendment grounds, and they filed it in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Texas. That’s where they started the lawsuit, and I’ve never seen anything like it before. It’s actually bizarre. As Doug Ritter, who’s been on the show, said, “sometimes, an unexpected setback can actually create a win of sorts, but that’s not the end of it by a long shot.” So, what the court did here is really strange. The Knife Rights challenge was dismissed by the Court because the U.S. Attorney General and the Department of Justice declared that they do not enforce the Federal Switchblade Act, and haven’t done so since 2010, and that the Act is dying, obsolescent, moribund, a statute with no credible threat of future enforcement. (https://kniferights.org/legislative-update/court-opines-feds-wont- enforce-the-fsa-and-dismisses-knife-rights-case/)

Evan Nappen 11:05
Can you believe this? The reason they dismissed a Second Amendment challenge to a standing Federal law is because they’re saying, hey, look, we don’t really enforce it and haven’t enforced it since 2010. Therefore, your Second Amendment challenge is mooted out here. I mean, that’s just astounding. The law is still on the books, and it still can be prosecuted at any time. I tell you, if anybody gets charged with the Federal Switchblade Act, you need to tell the prosecutor that you guys don’t enforce this anymore. So, you better drop the charges against me. Because in pleadings to the U.S. District Court, the U.S. Attorney General and Department of Justice said they don’t enforce it anymore.

Evan Nappen 11:58
So, you know, I’ve had cases where this has been attempted. Now, I was able to win. I fought switchblade cases, etc. But let me tell you this, folks. I’ve never seen that argument as a reason to dismiss a Second Amendment challenge. A claim that a Federal law on the books, that’s been on the books since the 1950s, that has been enforced multiple times, but apparently, according to them, not since 2010. But it was surely enforced before that. I remember the Edge Company, they were one of the early ones selling automatic knives through the mail, and such. They came down on them like a ton of bricks. They’ve stopped imports, claiming you can’t import them because it’s a violation of the Federal Switchblade Act. They’ve hit major companies with fines and custom seizures, all kinds of enforcement.

Evan Nappen 12:58
But now, according to the U.S. Attorney General and Department of Justice, they don’t enforce it anymore. So, folks, there’s some good news. The Federal Switchblade Act is a moribund statute, dead, dying, with no credible threat of future enforcement. It’s incredible. I think the case will continue, however, and that the dismissal itself will be challenged. The FSA still needs to go. If it’s not enforced, repeal the damn law. Don’t leave it there as a law that can be selectively decided to be revived. I mean,

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look at the stuff that the Justice Department does by reviving and suddenly utilizing statutes 100 years old, that haven’t been used, and they try to use these statutes in their lawfare campaign against various individuals. They try to concoct these things. You see that, and this is something simply since 2010. So, we’re fine. We’re safe. Nothing to worry about. What a joke! So that is an interesting development and to be continued as we fight for knife, Liberty.

Evan Nappen 14:37
Now, last week’s show was just fantastic. I was just thrilled to have Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman. His full name is Michael Hartman, Lieutenant Colonel (Ret.) Michael Hartman, but he goes by Mikey, believe it or not. We always hope that Mikey likes it. Because you don’t want Mikey not to like it. He was the top master sniper for the IDF (Israel Defense Forces), and he’s retired from that position. So, I wouldn’t want him upset with me. But he was just amazing and fantastic. He has just given us the real story about what’s going on in the Middle East. Of course, he has his course that I want to mention again. Mikey’s course is where you can actually learn the rifleman’s secrets of Israel’s elite. He wrote the entire firearms training program for the IDF, and now he is offering the course here in America. This is really a great program. If you use the magic word, remember, maybe you don’t remember, but Groucho Marx used to have, you know, the magic word. If you know the magic word, which is Gun Lawyer, you get $100 off his program. So, if you go to elitemarksman.com, EliteMarksman.com, you can find out all about his amazing program. He’s giving this information out about how built the shooting school at the IDF, and he’s trained over half a million soldiers. You can learn these tactics and techniques. The course is amazing. It’s over six hours of course materials, and it comes with IDF targets and all this great stuff. Mikey said it’s $100 off for Gun Lawyer listeners. Just use the special promo code Gun Lawyer.

Evan Nappen 16:58
Man, I’m just so honored to have had him on the show. But it doesn’t end there. Because our good friends at WeShoot have agreed to have Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman come to WeShoot for a seminar. That’s on August 9, and it’ll be from 9am to 1pm at WeShoot. They’re collaborating with the Lakewood Scoop etc. It will be just incredible. So, that is a free seminar, and you can meet Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman. This is a do not miss on Friday, August 9th. Go to weshootusa.com, that’s the website, and get set to attend that awesome seminar by this hero. Mikey is truly a hero. What he’s done in his career is, to this day, aiding in the fight against terror. He is to be credited enormously with his efforts in that fight by developing the firearm training. As he talked about on the show, folks, you need to be prepared here. Because remember Israel’s the little Satan, and we’re the big Satan. With all these folks that have come into our country, we don’t even know who they are, there is a ticking time bomb. So, check out WeShoot. It’s a fantastic indoor range in Lakewood. They have great facilities there. You can get your carry certificate, your CCARE to get your carry. They can set you up in their pro shop with your rig and your firearm. They also do rentals. Everything you could want is there, and it’s a great resource right there in Lakewood, New Jersey. So, check out weshootusa.com Don’t miss the Mikey Hartman seminar, which is Friday, August 9, at WeShoot, and check out EliteMarksman.com where you can get the training program and get instructed by Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman. (Remember – the discount code is Gun Lawyer to save $100 off Mikey’s program.)

Evan Nappen 19:54

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Now I’ve received a number of great letters, and I love getting the Ask Evan letters I really do. Folks have sent me some really interesting things, and I want to go through some of these. I think you’ll get a kick out of them as well. Not to mention all the great responses we got to Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman. Here’s just one I’m looking at now. This is from David. Love the episode with Michael Hartman. He trained some soldiers that I know. As Moses said to Joshua, “Be strong and resolute.” Well, thanks, David. I appreciate that, and I’m sure that the Lieutenant Colonel does as well.

Evan Nappen 20:46
So, we have our own, of course, special needs in New Jersey, because our rights are so under attack here. And for that, you need to be a member of the state Association. Every state has their official state association, that’s the NRA affiliate. The state Association’s job is to be an umbrella organization of all the gun clubs in the state, and they also have individual memberships. And that becomes our fighting unity under that umbrella. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is our organization in New Jersey. If you care about your gun rights, and particularly if you’re in New Jersey, you need to be a member of the Association because they’re the ones fighting for yours. They are the folks that are in the courts, as we speak, litigating against the assault firearm ban, the large capacity magazine ban, and the Carry Killer law. All those obnoxious sensitive places and other restrictions on our ability to carry. They’re the ones doing that. They are also the ones that have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton, keeping a watchful eye on the shenanigans going on down there. They have a great newsletter, a hardcopy newsletter. They’ll send you the best gun newsletter in the state. You’ll get email alerts, and you’ll know that you are part of the solution. So, please join anjrpc.org. ANJRPC.org. Make sure you’re a member!

Evan Nappen 22:31
Also make sure you have my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the 25th Anniversary Edition. It’s the Bible of New Jersey gun law. Every one of you needs to have it. It’s your guidebook through the treacherous waters of New Jersey. It’s over 120 topics in a question and answer format. I explain New Jersey gun law. Nobody else is out there that has this comprehensive instruction to try to explain this absurdity called New Jersey gun law. When you get the book, it will protect you so you can stay a law- abiding citizen because New Jersey likes to turn folks into law-abiding criminals. So, get the book, and when you get it, scan the front cover, that QR code, and you can sign up for the free archive of all the updates and other things that I’ve put in there. You can access them anytime for free. You will get notice of the law changes that I send out. As soon as we get results from these pending cases, I’ll be sending them out. If any statutes change or new Attorney General opinions are issued, I’ll let you know. This way your book stays current. So, get your copy of New Jersey Gun Law. Go to EvanNappen.com. It’s EvanNappen.com. That’s my name, and it’s a .com. You’ll see the orange book, click it and order the book. You’ll have it in a matter of days.

Evan Nappen 24:05
Now Scott writes a question, and it’s a question that I get often in multiple formats. It’s something that we really need to discuss here because I have basically two questions regarding the same thing. So, Scott writes, for example, great shows, Evan. I enjoyed the change of pace with the guest last week. Anyway, my mother and stepfather live in Virginia and have a Mossberg 930 that is “too much” for them to operate. I happen to own a .410 and live in New Jersey. Can we just trade to each other and call it a

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day? I see there’s a Certificate of Eligibility (COE) on the New Jersey State Police website but transfers between family members are exempt from FFL. Any ideas how this is done? I’ll explain in a moment, because I also have a question from Caleb. He says, Hi, Evan, I’m a big fan of the show and appreciate all you do to support 2A community. I purchased your book and frequently reference it to make sure I stay out of the “gun owner gulag”. Well, that is a smart thing to do. My question is in regard to inter- family transfers. Would you be able to explain the process to perform an inter-family transfer of a firearm, both handgun and long gun? My understanding is that it’s much easier than doing a normal person-to-person transfer, but with all New Jersey’s crazy gun laws that keep changing, I just want to make sure I don’t accidentally end up being the next GOFU. Thank you.

Evan Nappen 25:44
So, let me answer both questions at the same time by explaining this to you thoroughly. Scott’s question has a little bit of a twist to it, because Scott is asking about an inter-family transfer between non-residents. He’s asking regarding Virginia to New Jersey. Folks, when you deal with guns, we deal with two jurisdictions. We’re dealing with the Federal jurisdiction and the state jurisdiction. Under federal law, a non-resident cannot acquire from a resident of another state. So, a New Jersey resident cannot acquire a firearm from a Virginia resident, even if the resident is a family member. You also cannot gift a firearm to a non-resident. You can’t gift it. It has to go through a dealer, an FFL (Federal Firearm License) dealer for the interstate transfer, between folks of two different states.

Evan Nappen 27:07
Now, if you go to Virginia, you can go to a dealer in Virginia, and your relative can bring the gun to the dealer in Virginia. The dealer can then do the transfer of a long arm to right then and there, as long as you have your (New Jersey) Firearms Purchaser ID Card. The dealer obeys the laws of Virginia and New Jersey and does the transfer of a long arm. However, you cannot do a handgun. A handgun can only be transferred in your state of residency. But if it’s long arms, then that can be done by going through an FFL dealer. Now, if you don’t want to go to the other state, then the dealer in that state would have to ship the firearm to the dealer in New Jersey. That’s how the transfer would have to take place.

Evan Nappen 27:52
Under Federal law, one of the few exceptions to that is upon the death of somebody. If somebody dies out of state and you’re the heir, then Federal law exempts you to take that gun without going through a dealer. For that matter, so does New Jersey law. But if we’re talking about while folks are alive and it’s between two states, you’re going to have to go through a dealer. Now, if it’s not between two residents of different states, but it is a family transfer to immediate family members within the same state, then you do not have to go through a FFL dealer. Under New Jersey law, you do not have to go through a New Jersey Retail Firearms dealer either. It can be done person to person in New Jersey, between immediate family members if everybody is a resident of New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 28:58
In order to do that transfer, if it’s a long arm, a rifle or shotgun, then as long as the buyer/transferee has a (New Jersey) Firearms Purchaser ID Card, you do a Certificate of Eligibility, and the gun can be transferred to you. (https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/forms.shtml – under “Other Forms” on bottom of

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page) You each get a copy of the Certificate of Eligibility, and you file them nowhere. You just keep the copy with your paperwork. This is what’s needed under Jersey law for the transfer of a long arm to an immediate family member. There is no registration. The gun passes and each person keeps your piece of paper. And that’s it. You can do it without any NICS background check, without going through a dealer, and it stays private because the paperwork is just between the two parties, the two immediate family members.

Evan Nappen 29:53
Now, if it’s a handgun, you’re going to need a (New Jersey) pistol purchase permit, but you do not have to go through a dealer, and you don’t need a NICS check. You simply do the paperwork for the handgun transfer person to person as to immediate family members.(https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/forms.shtml – “Application to Purchase a Handgun”) You do have to follow through with the permits and send the copies where they need to go. The handgun has to be papered on a handgun purchase permit, but it can be done without a federal dealer, and without a state retail firearms dealer being involved if it is a transfer between immediate family members living in New Jersey. You have got to do the paperwork. You have to do the paperwork on long arms and on handguns. But a dealer, neither state nor federal, is involved. So, I hope that clears up (firearm transfers between immediate family members). And I appreciate those questions.

Evan Nappen 30:56
Now, Daniel writes, and he says, regarding the AR-7 breakdown rifle and New Jersey law. My friend referred me to your podcast, and I’ve learned so much that will likely prevent future issues. My question is about a breakdown rifle like the AR-7, which I think is manufactured right here in New Jersey. Yes, that would be Henry. Henry makes the current model of the AR-7. The AR-7 has gone through a number of makers. It originated with ArmaLite, the company that developed the AR-15. They were working on it as a survival rifle for the Air Force, and the early ArmaLite rifles are cool and collectible. Then after ArmaLite, it was acquired by Charter Arms, and Charter Arms made their version of the AR- 7 which was a very popular gun for them. Then after that, there may have been another maker in between, but basically it became Henry.

Evan Nappen 32:04
Now Henry makes a current model that I think is probably the best model of the AR-7 made. (https://www.henryusa.com/rifles/us-survival-rifle/) They’re all good. They all work, and you know, they’re all really cool. The AR-7 breaks down. The barrel comes off, the mag comes out, the receiver unscrews, simply with your thumb from the stock, and then everything fits into the stock – the barrel, the magazine, and the receiver. The cool thing about the Henry rifle is they made the front sight orange so it’s easy to see. They added a Picatinny, molded-in Picatinny rail, so you can actually put a scope on it. The way they set up the stock is superior for putting the parts in. You can leave the magazine in the receiver, which gives you one magazine in the receiver that you tuck into the buttstock of the gun, and then there’s a spot for two more magazines. So, it can hold three magazines. And when the gun is assembled, it floats. So, if you drop it off the boat, it actually floats. It is a very cool gun, a survival rifle, as they call it. Henry made some really great improvements, but it’s still the classic AR-7. These guns are also reasonable and really an excellent, excellent .22 to have for that purpose.

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Evan Nappen 33:39
So, I’ll continue with the question, having diverted to a little bit of the history of the AR-7. Daniel says New Jersey law requires that a weapon being transported under paragraph (2) of Subsection b., subsection e. or paragraph (1) and (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gun box, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of an automobile and shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances. If a rifle is stored within its own stock, would that constitute a closed and fastened case under New Jersey law for transport in my hatchback? How are hatchbacks with small cargo areas treated under NJ law for long gun transport? Let’s assume the AR-7 magazines are empty when stored in the rifle stock for the purpose of this question.

Evan Nappen 34:30
So, the answer is yes. Technically, the stock would act as a case because New Jersey defines the firearm itself as the receiver. The receiver is in a case, and the case is shut because when you put the receiver, the magazines, and the barrel into the stock, you then snap over it. You close and fasten the butt stock with a rubber butt cap that snaps over, keeping everything in place. So, it is in fact a closed and fastened case. And it’s containing the firearm in it. The AR-7s come with a box that has a little handle on it, and it’s a little bit more of a durable box. You can put the gun in that box, which it’s made to do. Therefore, you now have it in a gun box, which is also exempted under subsection g. So, now you have it in a closed and fastened case, arguably the stock. You have it in a gun box, which is the box that the AR-7 comes with. And by having it in the box, you also can put a box a .22s in there, put a pull-through rifle cleaner in the box, maybe some Rem oil, a little thing of oil, cleaner, etc. You can set up that box for your survival and have it all together in a nice kit. A real nice kit. So, the AR-7 has so many great uses. Because it condenses and it’s very light, it’s great for backpacking, canoeing, taking out in the woods, and having fun with it, if you’re legal to do it in whatever woods you’re in. But these are the things, and the AR-7 is a great gun. Everyone should own an AR-7 and have it in their personal arsenal. So, thanks, Daniel, for a very interesting question and getting me talking about one of my favorite guns over the years, being the AR-7. I have so many fond memories regarding the AR-7 as a young shooter.

Evan Nappen 36:54
Now, I have another question here that says, Hi, Evan. This is from Matthew. Longtime listener, and I appreciate all the content you put out. Oddly enough, I was listening to your podcast today on the way to a barbecue. When I got there, my nephew told me how he was pulled over by New Jersey State Troopers the day before. So, if you may recall, I talked about and put out to the audience whether anyone has had encounters because of what the procedures may be now with State Police when you honor the Duty to Disclose, what you must do and tell them you’re carrying a gun. What happens?

Evan Nappen 37:32
So, one of the listeners here, Matthew, writes and says the following story about his nephew. He doesn’t have a carry permit and was transporting several rifles to the range in the backseat of his truck. He got pulled over for an expired registration. He disclosed the rifles since they were in plain sight and then consented to a search. (facepalm) The Trooper called for backup and upon arrival of several, they had him exit the vehicle, searched him, and proceeded to uncase and verify the serial numbers on

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every rifle. Not exactly the same case but figured I’d mention. As a carry permit holder, it did raise a question for me. If pulled over, after disclosing, if the officer asks to see my pistol, am I obliged to comply or can I refuse as I would a general search of the vehicle?

Evan Nappen 38:24
Well, once you disclose you have a firearm and then you show your permit, which you’re required to do under Duty to Disclose, there’s another section of the law that says, if there’s an investigation, they have a right to ask for your gun. Now, let me just say this. If you’ve disclosed and you’ve shown the permit and the officer wants to see your gun, I would advise that you do it and not worry about whether technically he has the right to ask. You don’t want to have a problem. You don’t want the officer to be nervous about you and your gun. Even though you have a carry permit and you’ve shown him your carry permit, the best thing in that situation, since he knows you have a firearm, is to follow the officer’s instructions. Let’s not make their job more difficult here or place you in a situation where common sense needs to dictate. In this narrow circumstance, if you’ve disclosed and the officer wants you to hand him your gun or if he wants to take your gun from you, temporarily, etc., I have to advise you to cooperate. It’s not a time to stop that.

Evan Nappen 38:39
Now beyond that, you know, consenting to a search of your vehicle, consenting to searching your trunk, talking about anything else, why you have a gun or anything, none of that you should be doing, none of that. But you must disclose because the law is still on the books. You have to do it. You show your permit because the law is on the books. You have to do it. If your cooperation is to the extent of the officer wanting to see your gun or render it safe, you really need to cooperate with that. It doesn’t mean you’re going to give up any other rights. And that’s important, especially, when it comes to any further consent regarding searching your vehicle. So, that is how I personally would handle it. Just so you know.

Evan Nappen 40:42
Now, I want to talk about one of the most popular sections and segments of the podcast, which is the GOFU. The GOFU is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. GOFUs are really important because these are expensive lessons that others have learned that you get to learn for free. This week’s GOFU is actually based on a letter that I received. The letter itself is not a GOFU per se, but it demonstrates what I’ve been seeing lately, that can absolutely become a GOFU. This is a letter from John, and John says, Are others with pistol braces such as the Troy A4 still legal in New Jersey? Also, is it legal to build a mimic version with a stripped lower?

Evan Nappen 41:42
Here’s the deal, folks. We discussed the Troy A4, the Dark Storm 15, and we do have that State Police letter that made it legal and lawful. Then we went through all the turmoil of the pistol brace law that seemed to undercut that, and then they’ve been stayed, enjoined, by the courts. And it looks like the Federal change is on its deathbed. It’s all just a big turmoil right now in this area. Basically, as you may know, they required that they be registered as SBRs. They being the Feds. They said you had to register them as short barrel rifles. But, of course, New Jerseyans couldn’t do that because then you’re admitting to having a short barreled rifle, and short barrel rifles are prohibited in Jersey. So, it makes it

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not a short barrel rifle as the State Police recognized that it was a pistol brace and not making it a rifle. All these other good things.

Evan Nappen 42:37
So, look, the bottom line is, with the A4s and the Dark Storms that are specifically listed, you have the protection that you can raise as a defense known as ignorance or mistake of law that you’re relying on an official statement of the State Police saying those guns are okay. Now, it’s still subject to challenge. It’s still arguably dependent on ATFs ruling, but they seem to have put that ruling on the backburner. One of the things I would recommend is that you join some of the national groups that have gotten injunctions which protect their members, such as the NRA (National Rifle Association), GOA (Gun Owners of America), and the FPC, that’s Firearm Policy Coalition. They’ve gotten injunctive relief that protects members if you have a pistol brace in violation of the Federal rule. And so that helps keep you exempt. If you have a Troy A4 or Dark Storm 15, you’re really well advised to have the membership credential to protect you, not just from the Federal law being applied to you, but also, arguably, if you’re enjoined federally, you’re protected as that member if they wanted to make trouble for you. They being the State. We would raise that entire thing showing that that rule of reinterpretation, which is hopefully very shortly going to be declared completely unconstitutional. We’d have those grounds there to fight it and use it to protect you.

Evan Nappen 44:18
But you see the GOFU is on the second question, more than even the first. That is what the writer called a “mimic version”. Essentially, what he means is you take a stripped lower and you build, even though it’s a registered lower that’s legal for you to have, up a configured “other” that matches the configurations of the Dark Storm or the Troy A4. Theoretically, you should be fine as long as the registered receiver was that of an other, it remained an other, and that’s what you built. But the problem is the Government doesn’t recognize that. It’s hard enough when I have cases with Dark Storms and Troy A4s, trying to win those. But if you have built your own, and it is not one of those deemed guns, it’s going to be even harder. You’re going to have more of a fight, a harder fight, to beat the charges as they are going to charge you with having an SBR under New Jersey law, they’ll charge you with possession of an assault firearm under Jersey law. Then knocking it out quickly and easily, at least faster than we could do with the Troy and the Dark Storm because of the State Police letter. Now we have to explain and convince the prosecutor and/or their folks how this fits and how it should be applied to that gun as well, even though the State Police didn’t address it, necessarily, generally, on your build.

Evan Nappen 46:12
So, I really have to say, try not to do that. Even having the Troy and the Dark Storms is trouble enough and problematic enough. But the GOFU is going to be this extrapolation on doing your build. I’ve plenty of cases that I’m currently fighting, dealing with this very thing. So, beware. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 46:54

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Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E190_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

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Episode 189-Nappen Interviews Head Sniper of the IDFAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 189SUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun, israel, accidental discharges, idf, galil, handgun, targets, shooting, gaza, new jersey, check, mikey, m4, sniper, called, israeli, magazine, israeli army, people, august 9th

SPEAKERS

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman, Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

EvanNappen 00:00
Hi I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. I am really excited because I have a fantastic guest today on the show. Today’s guest was the head sniper of the IDF (Israel Defense Forces) who rewrote their whole shooting doctrine which trained over a half a million soldiers, including Americans. And that man is Mikey Hartman. {LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman} Mikey, welcome to Gun Lawyer.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 00:54
I’m honored to be here, buddy. Thank you for having me.

EvanNappen 00:57
Well, I am really excited, and I have so much respect for you. You have had and still are involved in an amazing career. I just want to mention to my audience that I’m also looking at a really cool cover of Soldier of Fortune (June 2013) in which you were on the cover of that magazine? How did that happen?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 01:29
That was a few years ago. Firstly, to be clear, I’m retired now. So, I’m not the head Sniper of anybody anymore. I was the previous head Sniper of Israel, and I wrote the Israeli doctrine on how to shoot a gun. But I’ve been retired almost 15 years. So, I’m an old man. The cover of Soldier of Fortune. Do you know the editor of that magazine?

EvanNappen 01:45
Yes, wasn’t that Robert K. Brown. Right?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 01:49
He is an ex-sniper from Vietnam. He came to my booth at Shot Show many years ago, and we had this like, I guess, connection and stuff. Then they interviewed me, and they did like a six-page article about me. And they were very cool. They put me on the cover. And it was kind of cool. So, it was a sniper to sniper kind of thing. He’s a great guy. But to be honest with you, they stopped printing those magazines and they went full internet, probably about four or five magazines after me.

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EvanNappen 02:24 That’s funny.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 02:24 Maybe I was the cause.

EvanNappen 02:26
No, I don’t think so. But, you know, I have original SOF magazines when they had the red border, Torino and all that, way back.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 02:35
I was the first. I was the first Israeli. I think the only Israeli Jew to ever be put on the cover. So, for me, it was like, it was pretty cool. You know? And we went one.

EvanNappen 02:45 You broke a new barrier.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 02:46
It was kind of cool. Right when it came out, I was doing something, and I went in to Mexico. I don’t know if it was Mexico, or Brazil. I can’t remember. I had a whole bunch of those magazines, and all the police guys that would do autographs. I was signing, and it was like really, really cool. So, it was my one day of stardom.

EvanNappen 03:06
So, you originally though were from Memphis, Tennessee?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 03:10
Yeah, I was born in Memphis. I lived there a very few years, about seven. Then we moved to Israel, and then we came back to LA. I grew up in LA and went to high school out in LA. I was the president of my high school. Then I had this reoccurring dream in high school that I was a sniper in the Warsaw Ghetto during the Holocaust. And how many Nazis can I kill before they get me? It was like, you know, I had this dream to become a ַצ ָלף , which means sniper in Hebrew. After I finished high school, a lot of us from LA and all over America would go to Israel for a year, like a sabbatical, getting away from the parents before you go into college. Some guys went to a kibbutz. Some guys went to a yeshiva, and some guys went to university. I wanted to be a lawyer. That was my thing. I was going to sell ice to Eskimos, that was my. Since I was a little kid, they put the word lawyer on my forehead, and my mom made me sign a contract.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 03:51 Somehow I can relate to that.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 04:05
You definitely can, but you’re in a different level. So, in any case, she made me sign a contract that she’ll send me to Israel, to Bar-Ilan (BIU), a university on this one year program. But I had to write and

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guarantee that I’m coming back to study in college here, and I won’t join the army because I always had that little, you know, thing in my stomach that I wanted to join the Israeli army, you know, to protect the people of Israel, and everyone’s against us. Now even more so than back then. So, I went to Israel, and I was studying there in university. I saw soldiers walking around with a Galil on their backs, you know, the soldiers. And I said, I gotta do this, man. I gotta do this. So, I had to call my mom and tell her that I’m breaking the contract. I said, Mom, you know, I’m joining the army. She says, No, you’re not. And I said, Yes, I am. She says, No, you’re not. I said, Yes, I am. She says, No, you’re not. She said, You’re gonna do it by yourself. I said, Who cares? Who need you? I don’t need you. We hung up the phone, and that was the last time I spoke to her for like, five, six years after that, and went into join the army. And you know, when you volunteer for a foreign army, I don’t know if you know this, in our passport, you can actually lose your American citizenship if you volunteer to a foreign army.

EvanNappen 05:16
Even the Israelis that have like, you can have dual citizenship, can’t you?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 05:19
Well, I wasn’t a dual citizen then. That’s the exact point. So, you have to become an Israeli first. Then you have this dual citizenship, and then they can enlist you. So, I became an Israeli, and then the next day I went into the army.

EvanNappen 05:36 Wow.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 05:37
Lucky for me. Because, well, if I didn’t have an American citizenship, my wife wouldn’t have married me. The only reason my wife married me in Israel was because I had an American passport and that was the only thing I had. Yeah.

EvanNappen 05:49
Well, so you spent how many years living in Israel?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 05:53
About 30. Maybe 31. Yeah, I was in the military for 21, almost 22 years. So, from ’88 to 2010, I was in the military, Infantry. I grew as a sniper in the Infantry. Then, in ’93, I became the Head of Shooting for Israel, and I did that for about 17 years.

EvanNappen 06:14
So, I have to ask, what was your immediate reaction to October 7th?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 06:21
You know, I’m sitting here in Florida, and it happened the middle of the night. So, we wake up and everyone’s calling and all hell’s breaking loose. We couldn’t believe it. Because, I retired in 2010, some 14 years ago. We knew that they can hit us here. They can hit us there. But nowhere in our radar did I think it was even possible for something like October 7 to happen. It was devastating. I lost so many

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friends, and my friends lost their sons as well, because it’s a next generation. There’s so many heroes stories that we’re going to hear about and movies are going to be done. Jumping on grenades, and father’s running into the fire, getting their kids out. Crazy. There’s so many crazy stories. But for me, I felt very frustrated that I’m here, and I’m not helping. So, I got on a plane, and I got re enlisted, even though I’m an old man at 54. I went and joined the army again in in October. I left Florida. I left the family and got into uniform and went down south and did what I can do. I’m too old to really help too much. But the stuff that I do know how to do, I did. We will eventually win, even though the whole world is against us, other than maybe the Republican Party in America. I think that’s the only people that’s not against us. Thank God for Trump and thank God for the Republican Party. I’m friends with his son, and hopefully, he’s going to take over in November and the situation will be a lot better.

EvanNappen 07:58
Yeah. Tell me when you’re talking about the Israelis, the citizens and civilians defending themselves, what is the situation in Israel regarding firearms and possession of firearms ? How is that different? Or maybe it’s the same as in America?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 08:17
That’s a great question. You know, there’s a lot of misconceptions around guns in Israel period. I think the Americans think that the situation is very different than it actually is. So, let’s break it down. You cannot go into a gun store in Israel, and there’s very few of those, by the way. You cannot go into a gun store and buy an AR or an AK. There is no ability to buy to purchase a long gun in Israel, period.

EvanNappen 08:47
Not even a semi-automatic?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 08:49
Nothing. It has nothing to do with automatic. You cannot get a long gun. You can get a handgun but you have to go through some licensing to get that as well. It was harder before October 7. Now, they made it much easier. But another point that may surprise people is we don’t have sport shooting, very little. There’s some but very little. We have no hunting. There’s no gaming. So, the first time you ever see a rifle is when you mandatory enlist at the age of 18. All men and women enlist when they’re 18. Guys do three years and girls do two years. So, the first time they see a gun is either their father was in reserves, because everyone has to do reserves until they’re like 50, or when they join the army at 18. By the way, 99% of all the IDF, Israeli Defense Forces, doesn’t have a handgun. We don’t have a secondary. The American military is extremely different than the IDF. So, the handgun, you’re not issued a handgun as an IDF soldier. We have very few units, special forces, that are inside the territories that are issued handguns, but they are less than 1% of the entire military.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 09:10
So, for Israeli citizens that get a handgun, what’s the most popular handgun in Israel for an Israeli?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 10:06
I think the Glock 43X and the P365 of Sig Sauer. Those are the two. They are slim guns. They are concealed carry guns. Those are the two most popular in Israel as of now.

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EvanNappen 10:19
Do they carry a permit system as welll? First, you have to get licensed?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 10:23
Yeah, you gotta get a license to be able to carry. It used to be much harder. But not now. By the way, your question was such a good one, because what happened when 4,000 terrorists entered Israel on the seventh of October? It was like thirty 911s for us, per capita. The kolache was fighting against Israelis who had handguns. They didn’t have rifles to defend themselves. One of the biggest reasons that everyone should own a long gun, an M4 or an AK, whatever people like, is because of what happened on the seventh of October. Now we have an Interior Minister in Israel, that after the seventh of October, is trying to make it easier for more people to have long guns. So, they’re trying to build these like little security forces at each kibbutz and yeshuvi of each little town. They’ll have guys with long guns. Because the problem was, it was a handgun against an AK. And that’s the people who had handguns. Less than 10% of Israelis have handguns. So, the vast majority of the people don’t even have anything to defend themselves.

EvanNappen 11:31
You know, what’s interesting is I have a collection of various Israeli weapons from the war in the late 40s, and they were actually Nazi Mausers that are Israeli marked. Some of the receivers even were made by FN and Haganah marked. You know, with the crest, and many were marked. I have some that are 8 mm and some that were in 308, NATO. And it’s funny, because I always thought those guns were plentiful in Israel. These were surplus, you know, even from after the wars when they had used, ironically, the arms of the Nazis to fight for their state.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 12:28
Yeah, back then, you know, even now, where did where did the M4s come from? A lot of people don’t know that. They hear that America gives money to this country and gives to that country, and there are people out there that are kind of upset. Why is America giving money to to foreign nations when there’s homeless people living here on the streets, which is a valid, valid point. One thing to know, at least about the Israeli aid, is that the money that is given to Israel has to be used, I think it’s 85%, has to be used back in America, meaning we’re getting like a coupon. This coupon can only be used inside of the U.S. For example, we had M4s, we had M16s, we had long M16s, and we had the M4s. We had the M4s even before you guys were using the M4s. Do you know how much the Israeli military paid for each M4? I’m talking 25 years ago.

EvanNappen 13:26 I have now clue.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 13:29
$1,400. We paid $1400 for every M4. Now, you see that’s fucking insane. How are you paying $1,400? So, we can’t complain, because we got the coupons. Right? It’s for free?

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EvanNappen 13:40
Well, I’ll tell you what. I personally will take any of those coupons the Government wants to give me. How’s that?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 13:45 Me, too.

EvanNappen 13:46
Right. Well, you know, a friend of mine and a listener. He listens all the time, and I did mention to him that we were so excited to have you on the show. He actually had a question. His name is Mark, and I think this is a great question. I really want to ask you about this, based on your experience with the IDF, and given the threat to civilians on a daily basis that exists in Israel. My friend would be interested to know and so would I. What advice would you give to American civilians, given the fact that Biden has turned America essentially into a ticking time bomb with the infiltration through the open borders policy? It seems like it’s just something waiting to happen. What would you have to say about that?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 14:34
Well, I agree, firstly, with your friend. There is no doubt in my mind that at this moment there are terrorist cells, sleeping cells, across America, from people that came in through the open borders in the south. There’s no question. So, what do you have to do? You have to be vigilant. You have to, as we say, keep your head on a swivel. You have to be armed. It doesn’t matter if it’s a handgun, if it’s a long gun, if it’s a knife or if it’s a stick. I don’t really care. You have to train your family what to do. We say in Hebrew פעולה ותגובה, action and reaction. What do you do if something like this happens? What is your action? How do you react to that? Where do you go? Where’s the phone? Who do you call? What’s your emergency numbers? You know, you’re locking up the doors, putting on the alarms, being careful when you’re going out to a gas station. My daughter is 17, and she fills up gas at the gas station. You have to keep your eyes open. There’s no other choice. We’re not living in Switzerland. We’re living in a place where there’s some bad people in our country. I just think that people need to be armed, and they need to be trained.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 15:49
When they made me the Head of Shooting in ’93, you know, I grew up as a sniper. I didn’t know anything about teaching how to shoot. I didn’t know I was going to be the Head Sniper of Israel. I didn’t know I was going to write the doctrine. I didn’t know any of that stuff. I was in Lebanon, and I was zeroing my sniper rifle. Back in ’88 and ’89, our Sniper rifles in Israel were the end M14s. Now, this is an old Vietnam gun. I love it. It’s a .762, and I love the gun. But we didn’t have an adapter for a nightscope, and our ambushes were 24 to 36 hours. So, they were day to night, night to day. It was crazy. I had a Galil, which was my issued weapon. I had an M14 as my sniper weapon with a telescope we called nimrota, magnified by six. And I had to take a long M16A1 with the nightscope called varo. It was 1.72 kilo of shit. It was better to take it off the gun and throw it at the enemy and hope it hits them in the head, rather than shoot through that thing. It was nasty stuff.

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LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 16:53
I remember I zeroed my M14. After I zeroed it, my friend who was shooting the Galil, because you’re supposed to zero your weapon before you go into ambush, he wasn’t doing a good grouping. So, I went to him as a friend, he’s a buddy of mine, and I just told him what made sense to me. You know, we didn’t have shooting instructors back then. This is over 35 years ago. So, my platoon officer saw me teaching this guy, and he said, what did you tell him? I said, I don’t know. He said, well go tell him, the next guy on the line. And I went down the line. I was like the first shooting instructor, basically, of the IDF. And who knew that five, six years afterwards, I was going to be the head of all shooting of Israel. It was a crazy thing. So, to your friend’s point, I think you have to be armed somehow, and you always have to be in a ready position. Your frame of mind needs to be, where can I get hit from? Where can it come from? This is not an easy thing to readjust your brain to. Because all you wanted to do was go to Publix and get some milk. You’re not thinking hey, where can they hit me from? So, it is what it is, you know. In certain states like Florida, I can conceal carry. I can carry wherever I want to, and no one says anything to you. I think in New Jersey they have much tougher laws.

EvanNappen 18:13
Well now with the Bruen decision, as we’ve discussed on the show many times, even New Jerseyans can get their permit to carry a handgun. We are limited at the moment to 10 rounds in the handgun. And of course, every concerned citizen should have a handgun. In addition to a handgun, I’m sure you would suggest a long arm. Is there any particular long arms you think that would be good for a civilian in preparation for what might come?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 18:48
Shooting with a long gun, with a rifle, is substantially easier than a handgun. It has nothing to do with the caliber. It doesn’t matter if it’s a .556, you guys call it .223, or if it’s a nine. That has nothing to do with the reason you pick a long weapon. With the long weapon, you have more points of contact. We call it five points of contact. I did these videos online where we teach people how to shoot with a rifle. The fact is that you have five points of contact: shoulder, feet, your right hand on the pistol grip, your left arm against the magazine, and your left arm on the forward guard. As opposed to a handgun, where only your wrist is holding the handgun. The accuracy in the long gun is not just because the length of the barrel is longer, which adds speeds to the round and makes the bullet go farther. But the reason is the points of contact. So, I love the M4. Yes, we have the Tavor in the IDF, and I can talk about that on another show. Why did we got the Tavor? What are the advantages/disadvantages of a Bullpup in the army? But I love the M4 platform. You know I grew up with guns. I was always shooting. What’s great about being the head of shooting of Israel? You get the first gun. You get the new toy. So, yeah, it was really cool to be honest. In Hebrew, there’s a thing called wasa. It’s like walking around with a new toy. Everyone’s looking at you and thinking you’re cool as shit.

EvanNappen 20:17
It’s called the Hebrew hammer, isn’t it?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 20:24 By the way, yeah, it’s a cool weapon.

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EvanNappen 20:27 X95. I think, it’s the X95.

20:30

X95 is the short one. We call that the Micro-Tavor. So, we have the Tavor, and then the Micro-Tavor. The Tavor was just a little bit longer, and the Micro-Tavor, which is the X95, was more compact. It also has a different trigger guard and stuff like that. But overall, the Bullpup is interesting. I had more issues with it. I didn’t like the gas in the face. But as an Israeli, we had the Galil. We only went to the M16 and then the M4s as a temporary fill in until the Israeli gun industry created another gun, because the Galil, which was kind of like a copy of the AK-47, was very, very heavy. The magazines were very, very heavy, and the dust cover would move from left to right. And the rear sight was on the dust cover. It’s different than the AK-47. The distance between the sights is much larger on the Galil than it is on the AK.

EvanNappen 21:26
Did you ever shoot the heavy barrel FN FAL as well?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 21:32 No.

EvanNappen 21:33
I think they got rid of them by that point.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 21:35
Yeah, I got rid of the Uzis. We had a whole bunch of Uzis in the military and that was a dangerous ass gun. When you drop an Uzi on the ground, you can actually misfire. You can have one on those accidental discharges.

EvanNappen 21:47
Because it fires from open bolt.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 21:49
Yep, yep, yep. The paradox was that, who did the IDF give the Uzi to? They gave it to the girls that were the most non- fighters in the Israeli army. They were secretaries in our headquarters, and they would have to be issued a gun when they do guard duty or something like that. They would get the Uzi to them. So, we gave the most dangerous gun to the person that was trained the least. I got rid of that gun, I think, in probably the late ’90s, early 2000s.

EvanNappen 22:20
Wow. After the atrocity of October 7, you were able to go back and see what happened. Is there anything you’d like to tell listeners about that, what you observed.

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LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 22:36
Yeah, it was extremely tough. I got on the plane, and I got there. I went from the airport to enlist. I was in uniform, probably two hours after I landed, and I went to the south. The first thing was we had not yet gone into Gaza by the time I got there because it took a while to move the forces inside. They were on the outside, training. So, I did a lot of the training and getting the guys ready to go in. But I went through the kibbutzim. You know, you go into the kibbutz, and you go into these houses, my friend. I cannot tell you how tough it was to see the damage. You see the most. Your brain can’t even register. I don’t know if you know this, but because of these shelters, many more Israelis were killed. Why? When they were doing that party, the music party, they were in an open field. And I went to that scene. And everything was still on the floor. By the way, you see terrorists still lying on the streets. We would see them. By the time I got there, they were still there. The cars burned. You see baby carriages tilt over.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 23:54
But when there’s an open field, there’s something called migunit. It’s basically a little house that Israel puts in open areas that if you’re in an open area when a siren goes off, you run to this migunit. I don’t know. I’m sorry about my English. It’s like a little room that’s cemented, and it’s safe against those bombs coming from the top of you. It’s like a little bunker. But it’s open, right? There’s no door, and you run in there. What happened? There were sirens going off. A lot of the people from the party, the young men and women, 18, 19, just having fun at the music party ran into these migunits. Then when the terrorists came, they went straight to those migunits, and they just threw a grenade in there. They killed them all. So, they had pockets of Israelis, and we were much easier targets. None of those guys have weapons on them. So, they can’t fight.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 24:56
There is a scene, my friend, that maybe I can share are with you, and somehow get it to your listeners. There were maybe 50 people in one of those little rooms. And you see the terrorists, by video from the gas station across the street, throw a grenade in there. The guy takes the grenade, one of the guys inside, and throws it back out. They throw another grenade, and he throws it back out. They throw another grenade – seven times. Then finally they killed them, unfortunately, killed them all. But there were so many. It was just, it was just insanity. So, I hope that shits not coming here. But you never know. I wouldn’t be surprised if they hit us, you know.

EvanNappen 25:34
So, speaking of here, what is your reaction when you see the anti-semitic hatred on college campuses? What are your thoughts on that?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 25:44
Firstly, I’d love to deport all of them. Secondly, I would love them to go to Gaza, if possible, and sit in Gaza for a while. This whole LBGTQ lesbian label, whatever they call for Palestine, Queers for Palestine, or whatever they call themselves, fucking idiots. You know, if you’re gay in Gaza, you’re either thrown off the roof, or put in jail. You cannot be gay in Gaza. That’s one of these paradoxes. Now, these anti-semitic people, you have to understand that universities are funded by oil nations, Arab oil nations like Qatar. They’re giving them billions of dollars. Now these guys are getting scholarships, and they’re being paid for by these Arabs. Now, not all Muslims are bad, but there’s some

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serious ones that are bad. The open hate against Jews is insanity. Now I walk around with the Star of David on my neck. I never did that before. Outside of my house, there’s an American flag, and there’s an Israeli flag, outside of my house here in Florida. They’re not going to scare me. With that being said, they’re a very loud minority. I truly believe that the vast amount of Americans see these people as crazies, and it’s the same people that were doing the BLM marches back in Trump days. The same people doing that. It’s the same exact people. They put masks on their face because they’re pussies. They don’t even know what the river to the sea means. They don’t know what river? They don’t know what sea. It’s just pure hate. They hate us. They blame Jews. You know, there’s never been been a Jewish president. There’s been a black president. There’s never been a Jewish President. I guess everyone needs someone to blame for their thing in life. And I guess the Jews are an easy target, because the Jews, the vast majority

EvanNappen 27:39
Well, that’s been going on for a long time, hasn’t it?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 27:42
Yeah. I think some of this stuff is really tough. My daughter is 17, and she’s going into 12th grade. She wants to go to an Ivy League, and I said, well, you’re definitely not going to Columbia. You’re definitely not going to Harvard, if you would ever get into Harvard. She’s a pretty bright girl. She’s like her mom. I’m not even sure she’s mine, to be honest. But I started coming out. I just don’t know how she went in. But the way we’re going to be sending our daughter to school, we’re not going to be sending her to a place where they hate Jews and they act like this. Do people need to be? How can this be in this country, that you’re afraid to show that you’re Jewish? You have to take your kippah, your yarmulke off, your beanie off, because you’re afraid that someone’s going to come at you? Can you imagine in America, we have to fear what religion we are? It’s insanity. It’s wrong. And G_d willing, G_d willing. Now Biden is, I’m sorry, I don’t want to be political too much. But he’s a pussy. Biden. Because he needs Minnesota or he needs Michigan or needs these places where they have a large muslim population,

EvanNappen 28:45 Wisconsin.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 28:46
you know, the swing states that they call them, and they have large Muslim populations there. He’s trying to walk between in the rain without getting wet. And trying to play to these people.

EvanNappen 28:57
Well, that’s easy. Just go between the raindrops.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 28:59 Yep. Yep. We need Trump.

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EvanNappen 29:02
Oh, that’s for sure. Now, in terms of your training of IDF and your vast experience in what you taught and teach, what do you have to share along those lines?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 29:19
Well, a few things. There are a few things that I can tell you about how we do things and why we do things. I’ll tell you a quick story about the Hamas and how that initiated how we trained and what we do. We used to live or serve inside of Gaza. I don’t know if all your listeners know this. But the Gaza Strip, where the war is going on now, used to have many, many small villages of Israelis living inside of Gaza. Because of that, we had little bases inside of Gaza that would protect these little villages, these little cities. It’s like a little island inside, but you are inside of Gaza. So, you had many of these, I don’t know the number, all throughout, eight or nine, but I don’t know the exact number. That’s where I did most of my service. So, you’re on a roof. You’re in a window. Head, knee, head, that’s a sniper. That’s what I did most of my service. I remember once, seeing a guy holding an AK, and he put around him, he’s standing in a circle, and around him, he has like 6, 7, or 8 year old kids. They’re completely surrounding him like a clock, okay, and he’s standing in the middle of the circle. He has kids around him because they know that we are the most ethical army in the world.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 30:36
You know, they’re saying genocide. If we wanted to wipe out Gaza, if we wanted to kill everybody, let’s say we just want to commit the genocide that they’re telling that we’re doing. I promise you, brother, it would take 24 hours, and they’re all dead. We just bomb them. We’re frigging texting them that we’re about to come in. We’re sending leaflets from the sky. We actually give them electricity, water and food. We arm our enemy. It’s like the most insane scenario. No one understands that the southern border of Gaza is with Egypt. It’s with another Muslim country. There’s no prison there. We’re not surrounding Gaza. So, once we understood that you have these situations where you’re going to have to shoot between people, when I built the shooting doctrine, which was kind of cool, because I didn’t have anybody above me. So, when I built the way to train, every time we fought, and in Israel, every day you’re fighting, every day. So, it’s a fighting army. It’s not, you know, Europe. So, every time something would happen, we would learn from what happened. Then we would implement it into our doctrine. So, it was a moving doctrine. In America, you guys are much more disciplined, and everything has to go through a whole chain of command, checks and balances. We didn’t have any of that shit. We just improvised, and we went.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 31:54
I built this job in ’97, called a sharpshooter, which you guys call the designated marksman, and I sat with you guys a lot on this, your military. In the beginning, I put six, and then nine, then 12, and up to 18 in every company in the IDF, has either an M4, a Tavor with an ACOG, Trijicon 4×32, and a nightscope that we have in Israel. And that helped us because we didn’t have anyone between the grunt and the sniper. We didn’t have any mid-level accuracy. Those sharpshooters were responsible for about 80% of all our kill shots. So, what we would do in our scenario is we would train, and what I would tell people to do is, when you’re training on the range, wherever you are inside range, outside range, whether you’re shooting a handgun or a rifle, it doesn’t matter. Make sure that you use simple things. You can use numbers. You can choose different colored balloons. You can use multiple targets, but be with a friend.

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A lot of times you go to the range with your son, with your friend, with your buddy, whatever. Go to a target and put four numbers on there. Divide the target into four squares, like Tic Tac Toe kind of thing, and write 1, 2, 3, and four on them like a square. Have your buddy say to you, two or one. When he says that number, you only hit that specific square. So, you’re training your brain to understand that I have to hit something small inside of the groups. There’s another area that I’m not allowed to hit, that’s off limits. It’s like shooting behind hostages. You know, we would have two different targets in Israel, and one would be behind the other. You would have to shoot one and not the other. Similar to hitting that guy in the middle of the circle that’s standing in front of all these kids. You have to hit him and not hit the kids. So, the surprise factor that you don’t know where you’re going to be shooting before you shoot, and that you have to hit something and not something else. It’s something very important to train the brain.

EvanNappen 33:53
That’s really cool, Mikey. That is great advice. I want to know, how can I get you to come to New Jersey? I want you to come here. Listen, you know, my good friends at WeShoot, who is also one of our beloved sponsors of our show. I know that you could come here, August 9. Are you available August 9, man, so that you could come and speak and folks can meet you in person? What do you say? Can I put you on the spot here and get you to come to New Jersey on August 9th?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 34:33 Firstly, I’m an old man and I don’t . . .

EvanNappen 34:37
I think you’re dangerous, but that’s okay.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 34:39
If you ask my wife, I don’t think that’s the word she uses. She has a whole bunch of adjectives, and I don’t think dangerous is one of them. I’ll ask her, and I’ll see what I can do. I would love to meet you in person and meet the guys. I love sharing my knowledge. It’s the only thing I got. So if I can.

EvanNappen 34:57
Well, WeShoot, you know, is a range in Lakewood, and they are just a fantastic facility. I got my certification for my carry license there. They do that kind of training, a great pro shop. They treat everyone like family, and they have tremendous outreach to the Jewish community, and they are welcoming to everybody and anybody. It’s just a fantastic place, and my listeners know that. But I know August 9th is a good date, and we can make those arrangements. Do you think you could come there to WeShoot?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 35:38
I will do my very best. I have to get the okay from the boss in the house, and it’s definitely not me. I will do my best. I would love to meet you, and I would love to help. Maybe when I come there, I can clear up some misconceptions about class three and the way people carry in the IDF. And do they carry in the IDF? And do we have a round in the chamber or don’t have? Maybe talk a little bit about what the women do in our military? I’ll do my very, very best. This is recorded, right? So, we have the option of

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getting back in and letting you know. I’ll get back to you within 24 hours with that answer. And I promise you, I will do my very best. To be honest, it would be an honor to meet you and to talk to the guys in New Jersey.

EvanNappen 36:18
I’m confident that we can make this work. It would be so exciting to have you in New Jersey and for folks to meet you and talk with you. As a matter of fact, you’re working on and have created an elite marksman program. Right? Tell us about elitemarksman.com Tell us about that.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 36:39
I appreciate that. I retired about six months ago. I got kind of fortunate in business here and lived the American dream. My product that I was selling, a conversion kit, went viral, and it took off. So, I was lucky enough to retire.

EvanNappen 36:54
What was that kit? A lot of folks know about it.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 36:58
We used to call it the Roni, and now it was called the MCK. I got lucky. I built it with my hand. We molded my hand and that was the forward grip of the MCK, that micro conversion kit. I retired in January. So, it was about five, six months ago. I said to myself that like before I die, because when you get to our age, you start thinking about the end more than the beginning. I wanted to have something that all this knowledge that I had in my head, the way I built the idea of shooting doctrine that I could put it down in an Internet course. I could take the seven laws of shooting – ballistics, zeroing, night shooting, moving targets, dealing with stoppages, you know, every type of stuff that has to do with shooting with rifles. This production company filmed me, and it’s about nine hours of material. We built this website called elitemarksman.com, and there is a place that you can basically download the course. I developed all the idea of targets, specifically all the zeroing targets. So, when you buy the course from us, you get idea of cool targets. There’s like shoulder targets and head targets and zoom targets. It’s kind of cool stuff. You’ll never see those anywhere else. That’s part of the course. Normally, the course goes for $399, and because my guys knew I was coming on this podcast with you and because you are like the man of the man in the Second Amendment, you know, lawyer guys, you’re the top of the apex, when you look up, they see you. So, “Gun Lawyer” is going to be our code. If you use the code “Gun Lawyer” and you put that into the website, you get $100 discount. Instead of it being $399, it becomes $299, and you still get the targets. They’re sent to you free of charge. Maybe when we come out to New Jersey, if I can get out there, we can do something like that and get the guys the course and stuff like that. We’ll find something to do.

EvanNappen 39:08
So, go to elitemarksman.com. EliteMarksman.com That’s where Mikey’s course is. His complete video training and special targets. Normally, it’s $399, but if my listeners use the special coupon code, that I’m honored you called “Gun Lawyer”, they can get $100 off. Get the program designed by the head sniper of the IDF. Now that is pretty damn cool, and that is a special thing for Gun Lawyer listeners.

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LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 39:51
There’s one other thing. When they download it, they get actual IDF shooting scenarios. The same scenarios that every Infantry Special Forces guy does in bootcamp. Then when they download the course, they can get what size target, what range, how many bullets, and going over which position you’re shooting in. So, they actually get the scenarios as well. It’s not just me standing in front of a classroom teaching. Not only are we giving them the targets, we’re also giving them “how to train and what to train”, how many rounds, required score, time, restrictions and all.

EvanNappen 40:28
Wow! Given the potential threat that even faces Americans and how we have so many long guns in America, we’re fortunate that we have the Second Amendment and even though we’re in a fight to maintain our rights, this is something that even New Jerseyans can do. And that is really cool. And you know, because we have the Second Amendment rights, of course, another sponsor of our show that I’m very proud of is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol clubs. ANJRPC.org. They’re the group in New Jersey that fights for our rights. They are the group litigating in federal court, as we speak, to defeat the so-called assault firearm ban, that looks to limit the very firearms that we need. That the Isralies could have used to great effect. We need to get that declared unconstitutional. We’re getting there. We’re so close. They also are challenging the so-called large capacity magazine ban that New Jersey limits mags to 10 rounds. And that, too, is being fought by the Association along with the Carry Killer bill. That was the law that came into effect after Bruen. Even though we can get carry licenses, the Democrats tried to limit the utilitarian value, where you can carry, and create all these restrictions. So, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is fighting that, too. Every one of my listeners needs to be a member of the Association. Be part of the solution.

EvanNappen 42:16
Now let me just take one moment to shamelessly plug my book, New Jersey Gun Law. If you need to know and understand New Jersey gun law, that is the source. It is the Bible of Jersey gun law. You should get a copy of it. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a Question and Answer format. It’s very user friendly. If you’re not a gun owner and want to become one, this book has a whole chapter on first gun. If you are a gun owner and you want to protect yourself and not fall into the trap that the matrix lays in New Jersey for unsuspecting gun owners who don’t fully understand how convoluted Jersey’s laws are, I’ve created this book to help folks do that. To order the book, go to evannappen.com and look for the orange book.

EvanNappen 43:04
I’m just so excited to have you on the show, Mikey. We have a part at the end of the show that’s extremely popular, and it’s called the GOFU, which is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. The beauty of GOFUs is that these are actual real lessons learned by folks at a very high cost. When we talk about them, the listener gets to learn them for free. I want to take this opportunity to ask you about GOFUs that you may have encountered, particularly maybe related to accidental discharges or anything else that you think individuals can learn from. You are my spokesman for this shows GOFUs.

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LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 43:51
Wow. First, it’s an honor that you put me on this pedestal, and I don’t want to disappoint you, man. I don’t want to disappoint you. So, one thing I’m going to say before we start, one tip to all your listeners. When people ask me, Mikey, you’ve taught 500,000 soldiers to shoot. You’ve taught 1000s of Americans that were going to Afghanistan or Iraq. They would stop by Israel and do something called “lessons learned”, and I would train those guys. I’ve been in Camp Lejeune, Fort Bragg, and you know, I love the guys here. I love the military here. You asked me what is the one weakness in shooters across the board? Obviously, the trigger pull is. Everyone’s really bad at that. But let’s put that aside because it’s hard for me to fix that on this show. Speed, speed, speed. Everyone wants to look cool. Everyone wants to be Rambo. Everyone wants the speed shooting. Shooting faster than your body allows you to shoot is the main reason why an IDF soldier misses the target. You have to shoot as fast as you can, as long as you’re hitting 100%. If because of speed, you now are missing the target, you have to slow down. The enemy will not be impressed by your speed. He will die because you hit him. So, if you shot so fast that you missed the target, what did you accomplish? Absolutely nothing. So, that’s one tip.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 45:24
Regarding accidental discharges, which was a major problem in the Israeli army, I have like a three minute story. Is that okay? Is that too much, Evan, or is that okay?

EvanNappen 45:33
No, it’s fine. It sounds like your GOFU is something that I think Wyatt Earp once put in in a great quote. He said, you have to learn to be slow in a hurry.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 45:48
No, I did not know that quote. Yeah, that’s very cool.

EvanNappen 45:51
Well, there’s an American western hero that I think is really saying what you’re saying about trying to be fast. In reality, you have to be slow, but in a hurry.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 46:05
Yes, smooth is fast, right? So, our problem in the Israeli army, I’m embarrassed to say this to to your listeners because everyone looks at the Israeli army as like a kick ass army, but we have our weaknesses. Our major weakness is because our fathers did not shoot with guns in sports. We don’t have guns laying around the house, and there is no safe in anyone’s house with guns. So, the first time a soldier sees a gun, it’s at 18. He does it until he’s 21. Then he does reserve duty three days a year for the next 20-30 years. So, the way the IDF, the entire Israeli army, it doesn’t matter if it’s the Navy, the Air Force, the Special Forces, infantry, tanks, artillery, engineering, it doesn’t matter. The way we checked a weapon since 1948, since Israel was created, until probably the middle of the early 2000s was that if you had a gun, whether it was a Galil, whether it was a Tavor, whether it was an M16, M4, you would cock the gun twice with the Galil, you would have to open up the safety, because the safety stops the gun from being cocked, you would cock the gun twice, open up the safety, pull the trigger and

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then close the safety. With the M4, you have to recock the gun to engage the safety. This is how every gun was checked in the IDF.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 47:20
Now, we don’t have those little thingies, those machines that you put the barrel in, and you pull the trigger like they do in the American military. Those little, I don’t know what they’re called, those little

EvanNappen 47:29 Bullet traps.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 47:30
Bullet traps. Thank you. I appreciate the help on the vocabulary and the knowledge. So, every time you go in to a base in Israel, every time you go out of a base in Israel, every time you go into the field in Israel, every time you come off the field, every time you get on one of those little buses that will take you around in the army or get off the bus, you are always checking your freaking gun. When you finish cleaning your gun, you’ve got to check your gun. It was absolute stupidity. Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid. Now, unfortunately, I wasn’t in charge of that at that time. They have their Safety Division in the IDF that says how to check a gun. I can’t even tell you how many, hundreds, hundreds of accidental discharges. When? When we were checking the weapon. Why do you check a weapon? To make sure you’re not going to do an accidental discharge. What a paradox. What an irony. We check the gun to make sure we don’t have a bullet in the chamber. And because we’re checking the gun, we’re actually doing the accidental discharge. Insanity in every level of your brain.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 48:37
Now, unfortunately, in the Israeli army, when you go into a base, the guy doing guard duty is not the best fighter. You’re trying to show off. So, you do this thing real quick. Do, do, do. You cock it twice, open up the safety, and you pull the trigger almost in one action. Less than a second. You do those things. Double cock, open safety, and pull trigger. The frigging idiots would forget that they have a magazine inside the gun. Because in Israel, you don’t go with a magazine in the gun. Only when you go past the green green line. There’s a certain area in Israel that once you pass it, you put a magazine in the in the gun. When you’re in the regular base, you don’t have a magazine in the gun, at least back then. So, they would forget that they have a magazine in, and they’re so used to checking the gun all the time. They would cock the gun (in the U.S., we call it racking the slide) which would put a bullet in the chamber. They would cock it again, the bullet would fly out, and a new one would go in the chamber. Then they would open up the safety and pull the trigger in such a short time that they didn’t even realize it.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 49:30
So, in the late ’90s, I started saying guys, why don’t we just cock it three times. Let’s say the idiot forgot the magazine is in and he didn’t do the check the way he was supposed to and didn’t verify that there’s no ammo physically in the magazine. Well, let’s say he screwed up, and under the thesis, a soldier will always screw up. He will always screw up. That’s what we do. So, let’s say he forgot about the magazine, and he cocked it three times. Even the moron is going to see three bullets flying out of his freaking gun. So, he does not open up the safety, and he does not pull the trigger. Worse comes to

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worse, he has a bullet in the chamber. He then says, oops. Now he takes out the magazine and gets the last bullet out. I would teach this for years. But the problem was, Evan, I wasn’t in charge of it.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 50:16
So, a real quick story because it’s life and death. There was a situation where one of the infantry units were in the territories, he cleans his gun in one of the rooms, which they are not supposed to do, by the way. He puts the magazine back in, he checks the gun, and he does the mistake. He accidentally shoots a bullet into the back of his friend. Did not kill him, but hit him with a bullet. When this happens, a Brigadier General does a little, I don’t know how to say tuck here, investigation to understand what happened, what can be learned, so we don’t fuck up again. They invite me to that. I tell the Brigadier General, you know, I’ve been talking about this for decades. We should be friggin cocking the gun three times. He says, oh my god, I love that idea. I wish I would have known it before. But he made the law and from that day forward, we did three cocks. That lasted, listen to me, two weeks because the Head of Defense heard that we changed the cocking This is showing you the discipline or the lack of discipline in Israel. He said no, you guys don’t have the authority to change the way we check a weapon. I’m not doing that. Screw you. We’re going back to the old way. I felt like an idiot because I started teaching the new way, and then we got cancelled.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 51:26
A week passes, Evan, a week, a soldier in the tank division on the Lebanese border. Same exact scenario. Inside of the room, cleans his gun, puts the magazine and checks the weapon. But this time the accidental discharge killed his friend. Killed another guy intakes. Now, when someone dies in the IDF, the investigation is done by the Chief of Staff. Well, at least it’s brought to him at the end. The Chief of Staff is the highest person in the Israeli military. There is no one higher. He’s the only guy. There’s one of them. I don’t know what you guys call a five star general, it’s our top. So, the Head of Safety, his balls are starting to shake, because he knows I’m going to be there. The Chief of Staff is going to hear that if they would have friggin listened to me, this guy would be alive.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 52:12
So, he calls me, panicking before then, and he says, Mikey, I want to see your new system that you’re talking about. I want you to show me how you take out the checkil, that’s the pin, the injection pin. Show me how this is still safe. I showed him that if it’s a live round, it will always come out because we check it 60 degrees. If it’s a shell, who gives a shit, a shell doesn’t do anything. There’s a lot. I don’t want to go into too much depth. After we did this test in the range, he said, I’m going to change the rule. We’re going to do what you want. But I’m asking you, in front of the Chief of Staff, don’t bring it up. Just shut up when he asks if you have anything to say. Mikey, you say nothing. So, I had to put my ego aside and say what’s more important to me? Being right or the future of the IDF? So, I shut the hell up. Then he changed it. When it got to my turn, the Chief of Staff said Mike, do you have anything to say, sir? No, sir, I have nothing to say.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 53:02
Now the way the Israeli army checks their weapon, whether it’s a Tavor or M4, its three checks. You cock the gun, or you rack the gun, three times. That’s it. So, all the accidental discharges are gone during checking. All the people being hit by accidental discharges is gone. It saved so many lives in

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Israel. But it was very hard conceptually, because for years and years and years, everyone wants to pull the trigger. They want to verify that there’s no bullet in the chamber.

EvanNappen 53:29
That is really great. Just think of all the people you helped by that, just that change alone. Not to mention all the training, all the experiences and everything you’ve been sharing and teaching through the years. I am just so thrilled to have had you on Gun Lawyer. Mikey, it was an absolute honor, and I want to have you come back. I just want to remind the listeners again about elitemarksman.com They’ve got a special Gun Lawyer discount of $100. You’ve heard from Mikey, and you want to get the training from this man. This is fantastic stuff. I just want to say thank you so much. And I want to remind everybody that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

EvanNappen 54:30
Breaking News – Evan Nappen here, and I have some breaking news. Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman, who developed the shooting program for the IDF, has confirmed that he will be at WeShoot on August 9th from 9 am to 1 pm. You don’t want to miss this. Make sure you check out weshootusa.com Go to elitemarksman.com Mark your calendars for August 9th from nine to one to meet and listen to LTC. Michael “Mikey” Hartman.

Speaker 3 55:09
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media Production The music used in his broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E189_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 188-Trump Can’t Own Guns Now Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 188SUMMARY KEYWORDS

nra, president trump, gun, law, new jersey, convicted felon, new york, prohibited, list, political, overturned, firearm, president, guns, abiding citizens, convicted, conviction, absurd, great, disclose

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, the big, big news, of course, is that President Trump became a convicted felon in the State of New York. That’s right. This was a state court, and it shows. I’m sure if you followed the trial, you would see just how unbelievably political and unfair it was. There’s no doubt in my mind at all that it’s going to be overturned on appeal. There are so many issues, so many Constitutional violations. Basically, the judge set out to get him convicted at any cost, and he obviously doesn’t care if he’s going to get overturned on appeal. His mission was to torpedo Trump. And when it’s reversed on appeal, well, that’s good, but that’ll be after the election. So, there’s the game. It was so patently obvious.

Evan Nappen 01:23
Apart from the disgust of seeing this devastating blow to our justice system and officially making us a banana republic, of course, by doing this to your political enemies, the interesting thing for us, because what do we care about? We care about guns. Is to now say and realize that President Trump is prohibited from having a gun. That’s right. As a convicted felon, he has lost his gun rights everywhere in the United States. Because if you’re convicted of felonies, which should be any crime in which the penalty exceeds one year, which is defined under Federal law as being over two years. The offenses that they convicted Trump of do arguably carry a potential of over two years in jail. He joins the ranks of prohibited people when it comes to guns.

Evan Nappen 02:37
So, now think about just how absurd and stupid this situation is. He was formerly the President, and he’s the Republican candidate for President. He’s leading in the polls, and as a matter of fact, all this law fair is so obviously political, it’s actually helping his campaign. It’s backfiring on the Democrats because it’s so clear what’s going on, and it’s disgusting to any reasonable person. But he’s on a path to being reelected as President. If he is reelected, and I suspect he will be, and this conviction does not get overturned before he becomes President, which is unlikely because the appeals process takes a long time. Now, there may be some ability for that to happen. I don’t know. But most likely, it won’t. That means that the most powerful person in the world, the President of the United States, who literally has his fingers on the nuclear arsenal of America is not legal to possess a .22 rifle. Think about that. That’s right. The President of the United States, who has the Armed Forces of America at his disposal, can’t have a handgun. Can’t have a rifle. Can’t have a shotgun. Nope. Because he’s a prohibited person.

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Evan Nappen 04:30
Now you can be President and still be a convicted felon. As a matter of fact, he could be in jail and be President. You’re not prohibited from being President and all the perks that come with being President. But he cannot pardon himself for this New York matter because it’s a State political conviction. It’s a State persecution of President Trump. The only pardon that could work would be a pardon from the Governor. Of course, the anti-gun, left wing, horrible Governor of New York isn’t going to pardon Trump. So, this conviction, until some greater authority overturns it, makes him a prohibited person under Federal law, and frankly, in every state in the United States, for a non-violent felony. It doesn’t matter, when it comes to gun laws, how unfair, ridiculous, political, and absurd the conviction is. It’s still a conviction and that makes him a prohibited person.

Evan Nappen 06:01
But it does illustrate just how absurd our felon in possession laws is. They don’t distinguish between violent and non-violent offenses. They don’t even do that. At one time, way back early on, they did, and it was only violent felons that were prohibited. And that wasn’t that far back. But it was far enough back. Then, like everything else, the encroachment on rights began. It then went federally to just about any convicted felon. If your jail sentence exceeds two years and it’s either labeled a felony or if it’s a misdemeanor that exceeds two years, then it’s technically a federal prohibitor and you can’t have a gun. So, this Federal prohibitor is so broad and absurd. We’ve talked before about how it has institutionalized racism built in because of the high ratio of blacks versus whites that are felons, and Hispanics that are felons compared to whites. So that built-in unfairness is there.

Evan Nappen 07:33
The thing that really gets me as unfair is that the federal law has a relief from disabilities law that says you can move to get your rights back by applying to the ATF, etc., and then if they deny, you could go to court. But that program has been unfunded by the Federal government since 1992, by Charles Schumer and the Democrats. So, individuals that are good people that are not violent people, that have convictions like President Trump, although not too many do, because that was so specialized and focused in this contrived, ridiculous theory to get him. But basically, if you have white collar crime, if you have anything like that, you cannot get your rights back because the provision in Federal law is unfunded. So, what it means is that if you become a convicted felon and do not get your conviction reversed, you’re prohibited for life from exercising your Second Amendment rights. That’s just an outrage. It really is. It’s just an absolute outrage. Things need to be done to fix that. And, you know, President Trump becoming President again, I think, this experience will make that even more likely to happen. Because if folks could get these bills forward, to finally provide the ability for a Constitutional right to be restored to millions of worthy people, we need to do it. If you think, well, felons are felons, and I don’t care and all that, but look at what they did to President Trump. They can do that to you. You may think they won’t, but you’d be surprised.

Evan Nappen 09:48
Because I’ll tell you what. Throughout his trial, I saw reflections of some of the bullshit that I’ve had to deal with in New Jersey courts. Now I’ve never seen that much piled on of absolute ridiculousness, unfairness, and insanity. I mean, all stops were pulled out for President Trump to make sure he got

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convicted. But those rights violations, you know, there’s plenty of rights violations going on targeting gun owners. We’ve talked about the Gun Owner Gulag as well. You know that they’re out to get us and get you. So, you need to know that. This is just a glaring, glowing, giant example of what you may face and to lose your Second Amendment rights because of politics, and/or because of an absurd gun law that is blatantly violating our Second Amendment but hasn’t been overturned yet. These are wrong, flat out wrong. We need to do something to change this system so that good people, good people are not prevented from exercising their God given natural Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. It has to stop.

Evan Nappen 11:22
I believe we will get there, and we possibly are going to get there incrementally. The Supreme Court is now looking at the Rahimi case. (United States v. Rahimi, Docket No. 22-915) This is probably going to touch upon what does create or doesn’t create and maybe even give us a test of what makes for a disqualifier or not. We may be able to use that to make even further inroads. And you know, the folks helping to fight for those inroads is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. That’s your state Association. They’re the umbrella organization of gun clubs for New Jersey. They have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton, and they have the attack going on in federal court, challenging the assault firearm ban, the large capacity magazine ban. You know, those pejorative terms that the anti-gunners name them to make them actual terms in law. Yeah, those laws. They’re attacking them now. They’re challenging them. We’re looking forward to seeing some action on that. They’re also challenging the Carry Killer law as we speak. You want to be a part of the Association because that makes you part of the solution. Make sure you’re a member. You’ll be glad you joined. You’ll get the email alerts, and you’ll know what’s going on. You get a great newsletter, and you’ll know that you’re doing your part. Go to anjrpc.org. Make sure you do. Make sure you join ANJRPC.org. Be part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 13:12
I also want to mention our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, conveniently located in Central Jersey, right off the Parkway. It’s a fantastic resource and a wonderful place for you to shoot. They have a great proshop. You can get fully outfitted and equipped, all set for the best gun that fits you. They’ve got some really great stuff. Check out that Rost Martin. We’re going to be talking more about the Rost Martin in future shows because that’s really popular and just a phenomenal gun. They have it there, and they have it at a great price. They also have great training. They have instructors to get your CCARE so you can get your carry permit. That’s where I got my training, and you can get yours there, too. So, make sure you check out weshootusa.com. That’s their website, weshootusa.com. It has great photography. They are a dynamic gun range, and they have such a great outreach to the public. They have done a magnificent job in promoting our Second Amendment rights by providing this great resource and opportunity for folks to shoot, to learn, and to get equipped. It’s a great place, and I know you’ll love it. So, go to WeShoot. Check out weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 15:01
Now, I want to shamelessly promote my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the Bible of New Jersey gun laws. It is used by everybody and anybody that wants to know about gun law in New Jersey. It’s the 25th Anniversary Edition. And man, the amount of hours that I put into that book, hundreds and

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hundreds and hundreds of man hours. Geez, I could have made more money working at McDonald’s. It’s not about the money. It’s about getting the information out so that you and I, because I go back to my own book even, can understand the gun laws. It’s used by the State Police Firearms Unit. It’s used by police agencies, used by attorneys, used by judges, and used by law-abiding citizens throughout New Jersey. And that’s who I wrote it for. So, get yourself a copy today. New Jersey Gun Law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a question and answer format. When you get the book, scan the front QR code, and for free, not much for free these days, but the Gun Lawyer podcast is free. The QR code is free for you to join the subscriber database where you get access to the archives, all the updates to the book, and you’ll get notices of law changes. So, this way, your book stays current, and you know it. So, buy your copy. Go to EvanNappen.com. That’s my website, EvanNappen.com. You will find the big orange book right there, click it, and you’ll have it in a matter of days.

Evan Nappen 16:48
Hey, let me tell you about some other exciting news beside President Trump losing his gun rights. And that is a unanimous win in the Supreme Court by the NRA. Unanimous. Think about that. All the judges said the NRA was right. And what does this involve? Well, surprisingly, not really the Second Amendment, but the First Amendment. It involves the First Amendment. This came about from NRA suing the State of New York, which were using their powers to try to stop various businesses and insurance companies from doing business with the NRA, because they didn’t like NRA’s politics. And that, my friends, is a First Amendment violation. That’s a violation of free speech. The Government cannot pick and choose its political positions and then use its influence to try to stop other businesses from dealing with organizations like the NRA.

Evan Nappen 18:07
This lawsuit was even backed by the ACLU. Think about that. The NRA and the ACLU were on the same side. There was a unanimous decision out of the Supreme Court on this case. That shows you how absolutely political and screwed up New York is. What’s really interesting is that the same politics of New York that were so bad against the NRA, causing a complete, unanimous reversal of their policies. It’s the same politics of New York that convicted President Trump. New York is a fascist state. New York is a banana republic. New York is a place I would never live. It is a demonstrably anti-rights and will go after, with a vengeance, anybody who has a political difference with them. The NRA victory really illustrates that. So, it’s kind of interesting that it happened at the same time that we watched New York injustice apply to President Trump. The New York injustice that was applied to the NRA has been quashed by a unanimous decision of the Supreme Court.

Evan Nappen 19:49
Now, what this means is that NRA can pursue its civil claims, its lawsuit, against New York, and that, my friends, can mean big, big money. It could mean the millions and millions of dollars that New York has tried to take from NRA, from their pursuit of NRA, under their nonprofit corporate laws, and those in the lawsuits brought regarding that. Well, now, this win can be the moment to recoup what New York has taken and is trying to take and maybe even get more money than that. All this while NRA is rebuilding. We now have a new Executive Vice President and new blood at the top of NRA. So, things I think are turning around there. Let’s hope so. Because we want to see NRA great again. I think we’re

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on a good track now, and with hard work, and continuing in this regard, we can do it, folks. We can do it.

Evan Nappen 21:20
Now I have an interesting letter here from a listener, and the listener’s name is Ryan. And Ryan says, Hi, Evan. I want to bring something up that I heard from a buddy who’s a New Jersey State Trooper. My buddy informed me that if you are pulled over by a trooper and after you disclose that you’re carrying a firearm, they will do the following. Now, of course in New Jersey, we have a Duty to Disclose. So, if you’re pulled over and you have that encounter, you have to tell the officer that you’re carrying a handgun, and you have to be able to show your carry permit. If you fail to tell them that, it’s a fourth degree felony level crime. If you are convicted of that, you’ll lose your gun rights just like President Trump. So, make sure you disclose. At the moment, we have to. I don’t know if that’s Constitutional. I don’t think it is. But for now, it’s the law.

Evan Nappen 22:26
Anyway, continuing on with Ryan. He says that he heard from this Trooper that they’ll do the following. Number one, ask you to get out of the car. Number two, handcuff you to detain you. He has parentheses but not arrested. Number three, pat you down, find your firearm and remove it from the holster. Number four, confirm the serial number on the firearm matches their system. Number five, if all checks out, they place the firearm on the driver’s side seat of the car. Number six, release you. Ryan says, I think this is totally unfair to the residents of New Jersey. I wanted to pass this information on in the hopes that we educate our law-abiding citizens to prevent them from being on the next episode’s GOFU. I fear this will cause panic and potentially create overreaction/fear when being detained.

Evan Nappen 23:26
So, let me say this. I really appreciate this letter. I appreciate all the letters that I get from my great listeners. But I don’t know the veracity of this. Now, I’m not saying that Ryan or anybody is not telling the truth at all. I just don’t know. I have not gotten independent corroboration of this taking place. But it wouldn’t surprise me if it was taking place, that’s for sure. So, I’ll put it out to the audience. If anybody knows of actual cases where people have disclosed and this has become the policy that people are experiencing, then that needs to be known, and I think action needs to be taken. But I’ll just put this out there. Ryan, I appreciate your sending me this. If we can get further corroboration on this and if this is in fact a widespread practice or a policy, then that’s something we’re going to want to look into very, very hard because it is pretty outrageous some of these things. You know, when you’re put in handcuffs and you’re detained, it means you’re not free to leave. So, technically you are arrested. Now, of course, you’re not charged with anything, but you’re not free to leave when you’re in handcuffs. You’re not able to go anywhere. That rolls right into implication of other rights kicking in right away. These are all interesting things here. So, if anybody knows of actual cases, let me know. I’d appreciate it very much.

Evan Nappen 25:08
Let me also bring to your attention what is actually one of our favorite moments on the Gun Lawyer podcast. And that’s the GOFU. The GOFU is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. GOFUs are expensive lessons that somebody else learned and that you get to learn on the cheap, for free, just by listening to Gun Lawyer. Today’s GOFU is this. Make sure you have a list of the guns that you have with the serial

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numbers, makes, and models. Even photos, if you can. Make sure that this list is hidden somewhere, encrypted somewhere. Somewhere only where you know where it is. But make sure you have it. Don’t leave it with your guns in the gun safe. I get cases where all the guns are confiscated, and property receipts aren’t given, or they’re incomplete. Guns are missing. There’s no record. I see this a lot, folks. If you have your private list, your private record, we can go from that list. It will help us to get all of your property accounted for and returned. It’s also not a bad idea to include on that list other valuables that you may have. Valuable knives, precious metals like gold, silver, and lead. Yeah. Take the pictures. Make an inventory and make the list. But hide the list. Keep it private, encrypted. Disguise it. Because that is your private list. I have had GOFUs similar to this where the individual left their list with the guns, and guess what else disappeared with the guns? The list. So, don’t go double GOFUing or trying to avoid a GOFU, and then setting yourself up that you’ve failed in that. So, this is a good tip. It’s important because it’s real. So, folks, this is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect law-abiding citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from law-abiding citizens.

Speaker 3 27:55
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E188_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 187-NJ Judge Goes Out Of His Way To Assassinate Your Character Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 187SUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun, new jersey, court, firearms, case, permit, withdraw, law, hearing, issue, great, petitioner, handgun, references, purchase, due process, domestic violence, people, order, ptc

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3, Louis Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Today in the Gun Lawyer studio, I have with us my brother, Louis Nappen, who is also an ace gun lawyer. He recently won an excellent case in New Jersey at the Appellate level that we want to tell all of you about. These are the things that we deal with in New Jersey, and it’s just outrageous, beyond belief. But luckily, we did get justice in the end. Lou, why don’t you lay the groundwork as to this recent Appellate Division decision and what led up to it.

Louis Nappen 01:02
Great. Well, I want to put something out there. First off, I’ve been doing this for about 18-20 years. And I have to say, I have never had this issue before the Appellate Division. It’s completely novel. It was new research I had to do. Now with that being said, hopefully, that intrigues you. What kind of new gun issue could have happened? That we haven’t seen.

Evan Nappen 01:25
That we haven’t seen practice. I mean, it’s like, are you kidding me? And yet no part of the thing about practice of law. It seems like there’s no end to the bullshit. Just no end to it.

Louis Nappen 01:38
So, in this case, and it does use initials like every other case I’m here. It seems it’s always initials because I do go out of my way to protect the privacy of my clients. It is only initials because I did request that as part of my thing. Otherwise, his name would be out there, and we’d be hurting his reputation, possibly.

Evan Nappen 01:56
And it would defeat the whole purpose of why we went down this road.

Louis Nappen 02:00
So, let me explain because now the intrigue is all there. What is this about? It’s In re, in regarding, Application of KD for a Permit to Carry a Handgun. This is a Permit to Carry, not purchase. A Permit to Carry a Handgun, pursuant to N.J.S. 2C:58-4., which has all been opened up now in New Jersey. You’ve discussed ad infinitum about how, after Bruen, we can get these now as citizens. It used to be only about 600 people. Now, the last I heard it about 135,000.

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Evan Nappen 02:31
Tens of thousands. Yeah, really quick, I just want to mention. When you apply for a carry permit, the standard for a carry permit is the exact same standard as for a Firearms Purchaser ID Card and for a pistol purchase permit. That standard is found where, Lou? Where’s the license?

Louis Nappen 02:50
That’s under N.J.S. 2C:58.3. There are the standards for permits to purchase and Firearm Purchaser ID Cards. For a Permit to Carry you also have to do the shooting qualifications, of course. But the standards for denial are basically the same. They are the same standards.

Evan Nappen 03:10
So, in this case, our client went under the old system where you first applied to the chief, and then the application went to the judge. In the interim, the law changed. But that’s not the key issue here. Was he approved or denied by his chief?

Louis Nappen 03:26
Yeah. Because he was one of the earlier ones to apply. He already had a Firearms Purchaser ID card and permits to purchase (a handgun). He already had firearms. So, he’s already been vetted. He applied under the old standard to his local police chief. Now under that standard of that time, before they changed the law, in part I’d like to say, thanks to our Carlson decision, and we can talk about that. But his Chief approved him, in answer to your question. So, he went applied to his chief who approved him. Now, you say like, well, if that’s the case, you should be granted it. But the issuing authority at that time was not the chief. The chief had to only make whether he approved or not in terms of whether he thought it was proper. He doesn’t grant them though. And he had to send the packet . . .

Evan Nappen 04:17
It was a two-step process. One of the only decent things about the Carry Killer Law and that giant mountain of dog crap is that deep in it was a little gold coin, which was the removal of judges from the process. And here is a great example of why.

Louis Nappen 04:36
This case exemplifies it to the nth degree. Why it is so important that that change happened. Okay, so it went up. We’re waiting for the court to issue his permit. The court says it’s not. We’re setting it for a hearing and it’s about what’s going on. He says the court wants to have a hearing. Well, per the Carlson decision, which mandates that they must have a hearing, that was our case that went up to the Supreme Court. I’m proud of that one very much.

Evan Nappen 05:08
That wasn’t just a win. That was a unanimous win – all seven judges voted for our side and said that you have a right to a hearing in which we enshrined due process for carry. So, getting a hearing is an important thing in due process.

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Louis Nappen 05:24
And here’s where that plays out. Because they used to do, what it was is you only got a hearing if you had been denied by the chief or Superintendent. Then what judges were doing, if you got approved by your police chief, the judge would just deny you without a hearing. The statute only said you got a hearing if you were denied by the chief on appeal. KD was approved by the chief and sent it up, but now he’s entitled to a hearing if the court intends to deny or has concerns. So, we were like, okay, this gentleman is not perfect. He does have some what they called encounters with police, but he has no disqualifiers, no convictions that bar him, no restraining orders that bar him, none of that. He’s had firearms for some time. So, it’s not like he had something . . .

Evan Nappen 05:27
The chief approved him every time.

Louis Nappen 06:15
Right. Exactly. So, here he goes to the court. And what we wanted to do here is we wanted to make sure. We want to see what’s in the discovery. What is it that the concern here is, because you just don’t know.

Evan Nappen 06:30
What’s discovery? Let’s tell them what discovery is.

Louis Nappen 06:31
The best thing about discovery, you might want to watch “My Cousin Vinny”. They discuss it in that movie. It’s a classic movie.

Evan Nappen 06:32
All right, we’re hitting a new low. Because we’re citing “My Cousin Vinny”.

Louis Nappen 06:43
No, that movie actually had good advisors on it, and it’s not that bad when it comes to legal procedure. She talks about how you’re entitled to it in that sense, discovery, to know about the facts of the case, both positive and negative.

Louis Nappen 07:00
Right. So, we were waiting for this discovery. They set it for a hearing date, and I put in my request to please provide the discovery so that we go in prepared and know what their concern might be, in particular. If there’s anything in particular, because he might think he knows his record, but I’ve been surprised by clients who find out there’s something there that they didn’t know about or forgot about.

Evan Nappen 07:00
So, it’s all the arrest reports, incidents reports, anything the State intends to rely on, videos, etc. You’re entitled to it all up front. So that way, there’s no surprises, and your attorney and you can adequately prepare for the hearing. And that’s called due process.

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Louis Nappen 07:37
Or it’s just only an error and just not them.

Louis Nappen 07:41
Right. Exactly. Just plain error. And we have to say no, that wasn’t him. You’re getting Senior and Junior mixed up.

Evan Nappen 07:47
Well, yeah, we’ve had that any number of times.

Louis Nappen 07:48
Yes, that’s right. Or two people with the same name. That happens, too. It went there. So, within the week before the hearing, approximately, I finally got discovery. Now we look at it, and we say, okay, he can clean himself up a little bit. He never took advantage of laws that can clean yourself up. And also, the law had changed so that permits were now going to be issued by police chiefs.

Evan Nappen 07:49
Only. So, his chief had already approved him. Under the new law, you get it on issuance of the chief. So, why are we going to now have a hearing to get a judge issued permit and risk a denial, when the law has been changed for it to be done strictly by the chief? So, why take that risk, when it’s unnecessary? And what was our advice?

Louis Nappen 08:18
Well, one of the reasons why you don’t want a denial is it’s a question on the application form. On all future applications, he would have to say “yes” to that for no good reason. So, now we have the discovery, and we see what he has. We know that we have a friendly police chief in his favor. We can also, or on his own whichever way he wants to go, clean himself up and make himself just. You know, why have that stuff out there?

Evan Nappen 08:45
And keep in mind, he’s going into this with an approval by the chief. He has not been denied anything yet.

Louis Nappen 08:49
So, approximately three days before the hearing, which is plenty of time before the hearing because I only got the discovery a couple of days before that, I sent to the court that we are going to withdrawal. Now the petitioner . . .

Evan Nappen 09:30 Withdrawal what?

Louis Nappen 09:31
We wanted to withdraw his application . . .

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Evan Nappen 09:38
And it hadn’t been decided yet.

Louis Nappen 09:41
Correct. We wanted to withdraw that because it hadn’t been decided yet. He had an approval by the chief. So, it wouldn’t be a denial below, and we wanted to withdraw the Because there was no sense in what we just discussed going to a hearing. So, and as the appellant, you hold that right to be able to withdraw because it’s your appeal, your case, your appeal. If you decide you don’t want to proceed, you can say, I’m withdrawing. Now, most courts are happy. One less thing on my docket. I don’t have to deal with this. Terrific, goodbye. Here’s the order. They can’t sign it fast enough to be done with a case.

Evan Nappen 10:21
Right. Because it clears another case off their docket. They don’t have to do anything, write anything. Hold the hearing, all that time? They’re like, great. Go, go. Have a nice day. We’re glad you withdrew. Right.

Louis Nappen 10:33
Right. So, we’re waiting for the order of withdrawal. If I recall correctly, I sent in, attached please find the proposed order withdrawing. It’s just really one sentence. We withdraw in that sense. Hereby withdraws his appeal. I forget the timeline exactly on it, but shortly thereafter, we get an opinion

Evan Nappen 10:59 How long of an opinion?

Louis Nappen 11:00
and a statement of reasons. We got an order saying I am allowing them to withdraw, basically what it said. I can. It said. Wait a minute. I grant his request to withdraw, but that the court finds that KD would be an ineligible for a permit to carry a handgun had he proceeded. Then there’s 17.

Evan Nappen 11:28
Well, isn’t that wonderful? When there’s been no hearing to actually determine that, and he’s pre- judged. He’s pre-judged.

Louis Nappen 11:36
Exactly. It’s a 17 page opinion based on . . .

Evan Nappen 11:39
Wait. How long was the opinion?

Louis Nappen 11:41 Seventeen pages.

Evan Nappen 11:43
Seventeen pages of slamming our client.

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Louis Nappen 11:47
And it’s all based on hearsay, because all he has before him, since there was no hearing, are whatever police reports, incident reports, contacts . . .

Evan Nappen 11:54
Whatever somebody may have said.

Evan Nappen 11:55
No corroboration or may have alleged or . . .

Louis Nappen 11:55
Whatever’s there. May have alleged.

Louis Nappen 12:00
Or foundation. Nothing. None of that. So, it’s just, these are all the allegations or the contacts that he’s had. And I find that in the interest of public health, safety, welfare, he would not be eligible for this permit.

Evan Nappen 12:17
So, this would be similar to a criminal prosecutor deciding to drop the criminal case, and the judge signing the order of dismissal but doing 17 pages saying how he would have found him guilty if he had a trial.

Louis Nappen 12:31 Had he had a trial.

Evan Nappen 12:32
But there was no trial, and no defense was presented. No evidence. Nothing. No due process. But he would have found him guilty anyway. Isn’t that nice?

Louis Nappen 12:42
Right. That’s exactly what it was. Now, we have for years argued, of course, with the court and saying that the Executive Branch and the Judicial Branch need to be separated. Why our the courts being an issuing authority of a permit. That’s an Executive Function. The courts are there to arbitrate when you have a difference with the police or the state in terms of whether something, whatever it is your application.

Evan Nappen 13:08
The court is supposed to be a neutral judicial authority to determine the issue. A neutral judicial authority.

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Louis Nappen 13:18
Right. So, for years New Jersey, and when they only were issuing subcontract, whatever it was, they held on to that. But now that they had to hold all these hearings and do all this. Bottom line is, so he gets this thing. He has a withdrawal. But now why is that a problem? And that’s important to look at. So, you say, okay, it’s withdrawn, and this opinion doesn’t matter. Well, no, that’s not true. Because this statement of reasons why he should be found ineligible sits in his gun file, in his file, in his history, forever, as a finding that he’s ineligible for a carry permit. Even though the actual application never had a hearing, never went anywhere. So, it’s a prospective judgment.

Evan Nappen 14:05
And wasn’t that specifically stated in the opinion that that was what it was intended to do?

Louis Nappen 14:11
Umm, well, I’d have to reread the whole thing as to that he should not be I mean . . .

Evan Nappen 14:18
That he should not be granted this permit and that he’s barred.

Louis Nappen 14:23
Exactly. All right. I can find it, if you really want to go into that. Well, I have it here. I mean, it’s a 17 page thing in terms of . . . The court finds that if appellant were granted a permit to carry he would pose a danger to self or others pursuant to the catch all provision of 58-3. Moreover, permitting applicant to carry a handgun “would not be in the interest of public health, safety, or welfare,” pursuant to 58-3.c.5 because many of the incidences . . . It goes on and on.

Evan Nappen 14:51
Yeah, and guess what? That’s what why we call it the all inclusive weasel clause. Any subjective basis for denial. When we had John Petrolino on Gun Lawyer, he looked at the stats and how that’s used with institutionalized racism to deny blacks at a greater ratio than whites as well. And that’s where the abuse takes place. So, here is an example of the all inclusive weasel clause being exercised without a trial, without due process, without anything presented, because we withdrew.

Louis Nappen 15:27
And all it does is hurt. It would ruin his reputation. Okay, we’re going to get into that. So, we do the appeal here. I think it’s just for fun, because I’ve never written a brief like this. I want to read my seven points that I raised. By the way, it’s law school 101, the courts are not supposed to. I mean, you really do learn this first year constitutional law that courts are, unless there’s a case or controversy before the courts, our Constitution talks about this. The courts are not supposed to give advisory opinions. You can’t just say, hey, okay, that you hear those time. If this were to happen, what would you do? No, the Courts are not supposed to issue those. They have to have an actual case before them to deal with. In this case, they did not because it was withdrawn.

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Louis Nappen 16:16
So, the court below had. These are my points that I argued, my legal arguments. The court below had no jurisdiction to issue prospective judgments upon a withdrawn application and such advisory opinions regarding Petitioner’s qualifications should be struck from the record. Point 2, the court below erred by making judgments without a hearing and therefore said judgments should be struck from the record. Point 3, the court below erred by finding that Petitioner informed the court of his intent to withdraw after Petitioner had withdrawn his application and accordingly, the court below is unfounded prospective judgments should be struck. The court below’s speculative judgments are nothing short of character assassination, absent due process, and should be struck from the record. Point 5, the court below’s order and statement denied Petitioner due process. Point 6, per Bruen, because at this point, Bruen was in effect, the Government must demonstrate that issuing prospective judgments upon withdrawn applications is consistent with this nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation. Good luck even finding firearm permitting regulation about licensing at the foundations founding. And in Point 7, it is respectively requested that the court’s opinion reference Petitioner by his initials, because

Evan Nappen 17:35
and how long was your brief on?

Louis Nappen 17:38
Okay. My brief was 22 pages.

Evan Nappen 17:46 Twenty-two pages.

Louis Nappen 17:48
Oh, wait a minute. Wait, I’m sorry. Wait a minute, it’s a little longer. Twenty-seven pages. Excuse me.

Evan Nappen 17:54
Now, once you file your brief, the State in a carry permit does not have an official automatic response.

Louis Nappen 18:01
Oh, that’s good. Now this is an amazing thing. Now the state is actually, you’re correct. They really don’t have a function. New Jersey says that if they want to chime in, they can within two weeks. They can make an objection or not, after a person appeals a denial. They can chime in and be there and say why it shouldn’t be issued in the interest of the public or what have you. But, in this case, what’s weird is on appeal, the Appellate Division said I had to notify the state. I was trying to explain. I apologize about that. I tried to explain how the state didn’t have any function and did not appear because there was no hearing. This is really unopposed in that sense that there’s no opposition. I’m just saying the court did something that shouldn’t have done. But they said that the state, this is New Jersey, that the state, meaning the prosecutor’s office, represents the judge’s interest in this matter. They have to put forth their position regarding it as an opposition.

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Louis Nappen 18:04
Now, think about that. So, in other words, it’s basically an admission that the judge and the prosecutor are on the same side. So much for neutral judicial authority. Huhhh.

Louis Nappen 18:25
Right. So, now I know what I would do if I were the state in this case. I’d be like, the guy wants to withdraw. He just wants this statement of reasons off the record. Why do I want to spend time on this? The court should not be doing advisory opinions. There’s no case or controversy. I agree. No. Instead, Morris County Prosecutor’s Office, and I’m mentioning it because they do talk about it being out of Morris County. I’m going that far. Instead they write their own brief and say that Petitioner’s argument is moot since the decision of this court will have no practical effect on the proceeding. We just went over that this is going to stay in his file forever, being there for any police chief or anybody else, anytime he applies for a permit, to say that he should not be granted this with no means to, if he didn’t act now, he would never be able to get this off of his file. There’s no way to get this out of a file, once it’s in there as an order and a statement of reasons. And then two, Petitioner’s argument is not right, because petitioner has not shown any actual prejudice as a result of it. So, it’s like, I mean, okay. So, they write their brief and obviously he is prejudiced by this whole thing.

Evan Nappen 20:50
Which is the whole point of why it was done.

Louis Nappen 20:52
Right. Because what other reason is there to do all that? Other than to put it to besmirch his character and put this out there forever, that he’s . . .

Evan Nappen 21:04
Besmirch. Ah, you said the magic word. You win a million dollars. What was the . . .

Louis Nappen 21:12
Okay, well, wait a minute. Just to tell you now, I thought this was a quick thing. Then I had to reply to the Prosecutor’s Brief. I had to write a reply brief, which I’m entitled to be able to do. The issue of the trial court wrongfully filed advisory opinions is not moot. Appellant is plainly prejudiced by the court below’s filing of prospective judgments upon him. I write another ten page brief as to how and why he’s forever prejudiced by the court doing this. Now, a lot of people wouldn’t care. But I give KD serious credit here for saying I’m not going to just take this lying down.

Evan Nappen 21:50
He was smart to do that, too, because he realized the implications, and his persistence paid off, Lou. So, what was the outcome.

Louis Nappen 22:02
Yeah. So, on May 17, 2024, we got a decision from the Appellate Division, and it was a victory. I don’t think that that’s a surprise. And,

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Evan Nappen 22:19
Well, it is Jersey. So that’s always a surprise.

Louis Nappen 22:20
Oh, yeah, you’re right. You never know, you never know. They listed what I raised, and they do list my points, which I always get a good kick out of. And they talked about it. They were persuaded by the contentions raised in KD’s first point. They didn’t even go beyond Point One.

Evan Nappen 22:40
There’s no such thing as overkill. That’s okay.

Louis Nappen 22:43
Yes, right. Several others in there. And it only took one head, when

Louis Nappen 22:47
And they did accept my reasons for privacy, because the whole point is about that, using initials. So, they did that, too. We reverse and remand for entry of a revised order without a statement of reasons.” Then they said, we don’t need to look at the rest except for using the initials. But it was awesome in that sense.

Evan Nappen 23:08
I’m really pleased for our client, who now no longer has that hanging over him, ruining his reputation and something that could come up later that he’d have to go through and try to have a hearing after the fact and have oh, well, the judge already decided this. You can’t let that sit.

Evan Nappen 23:33
That’s right. Think about that. If you’re a police chief and you have that order in front of you, or even if it’s the next police chief who sees that order, remember police chiefs aren’t always there forever. They change. They come and go. Or the guy might move to another town. They’re going to say it’s already been decided. You’re not eligible.

Evan Nappen 23:57
Right. Then they also could have used it to bring a motion to revoke his other licenses, or it could escalate to . . .

Louis Nappen 24:08 Hey, I just had a case. . .

Evan Nappen 24:09
a gun forfeiture. All these things. So, it was nipped in the bud by your excellent appeal.

Evan Nappen 24:16
Yeah, five years later, it’s an emergency.

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Louis Nappen 24:16
I just had a case where after five years of an emergency protection order, they moved, now it was denied. But at the same time, they waited five years until they decided to try and take a person’s firearms because it’s an emergency and you should have been

Louis Nappen 24:34
Five years later. Correct. So, it can happen. And

Evan Nappen 24:41 well, that is really,

Louis Nappen 24:42
I told you no case like this ever that I’ve had ever, going into

Evan Nappen 24:46
A 17-page opinion that was completely wrong to even write.

Louis Nappen 24:54
I just I do. I do sit there and question. Did he have it prepared beforehand? Was he just so proud of it? Was it a clerk who he wanted to give some credit to? You spend some time writing something because it’s

Evan Nappen 25:07
and add on a Second Amendment zealot. I don’t know. We don’t know. No one knows what.

Louis Nappen 25:14
I don’t know why. But it just makes me wonder why? All I hear is the courts are understaffed. There’s . . .

Evan Nappen 25:21
We don’t even know the time.

Louis Nappen 25:22
There’s not enough judges. They’re all on recall. Yet, they have time to write . . .

Evan Nappen 25:27
Time for your writing a 17 page thing to go at our client on a matter that has been withdrawn. I’m glad to hear that Morris County has so much judicial time available to do these things. These unnecessary, unlawful by way of the Constitution, advisory opinions, without due process. How nice?

Louis Nappen 25:51
Yeah, right. Now there is a better separation of executive and judicial functioning, which is good. Look, I also want to say, how many briefs have you and I written that the matter got resolved, and we didn’t

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have to submit it. So, if that was the case, that’s just ridiculous. I’ve worked hours on things that turned out, it’s moot. I don’t have to submit it because something else came up. So, I just don’t know why?

Evan Nappen 26:18
Overcome by events. OBE. Overcome by events.

Louis Nappen 26:21
But it doesn’t mean you don’t prepare.

Evan Nappen 26:23
OBE (Overcome By Events) I hear you. Well, hey, you know, not only are we fighting for gun rights with one client at a time that we’re so happy to help. But our state Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is there defending our rights in New Jersey. They’re the number one gun rights defender. They are in the courts, as we speak, in federal court challenging the assault firearm ban, which is the modern sporting rifle ban in Jersey. They’re also challenging the large capacity magazine ban, which is really the standard capacity magazine ban. They’re challenging the Carry Killer law in all of its sensitive places and other onerous requirements after their hissy fit after Bruen. Because now they have to issue permits, and their idea is to make them useless, even though they have to issue them. Our great Association is in Trenton with a full-time paid lobbyist, keeping an eye on those scoundrels as they try to further deteriorate our Second Amendment rights with various laws. You need to be a member of the State Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, which is anjrpc.org. Make sure you join. They are an umbrella organization of all the gun clubs in New Jersey, but they also have individual memberships. By being a member, you become part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 27:59
I also want to say thank you to our good friends at WeShoot, which is great indoor range in Lakewood, New Jersey. They are fantastic. What a great place. A matter of fact, Lou and I both got our CCARE certification and training from WeShoot, and it was great fun and easy. They offer the courses so you, too, can get what you need to get your carry. They have a full service pro shop, and they can get you equipped with your proper firearm, holster, and all the training that you need so that you can become and remain a law-abiding gun owner. To be able to protect yourself and your loved ones and have a good time at the range. They have so many great events. May is Member Appreciation Month. So, you want to get down there now. They are running all kinds of great sales and specials. They’re also offering a great sale on new memberships with what I believe is $100 off. So, you want to check out WeShoot. You can find them at weshootusa.com (weshootusa.com) Check out their website. They have beautiful photography. They pride themselves on their photography. I highly recommend going to WeShoot. They are right off the Parkway, easy access, located in Lakewood, New Jersey. So, if you’re in Monmouth County, Ocean County, or anywhere there in Central Jersey, you have a great resource right at your fingertips. Take advantage of it.

Evan Nappen 29:41
I’d also like to shamelessly promote my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law. It is the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a Question and Answer format. This is your

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guidebook to the treacherous waters of New Jersey gun law, and I wrote it for you. It’s labor of love. It’s the 25th Anniversary Edition. I put hundreds and hundreds of hours into this book. When you get the book, make sure you scan the front cover, get right in on that QR code on the front cover, which sends you to our subscriber database where, for free, you get to become a free member. You’ll be able to access all the updates, the archived materials, and I send out email alerts for any changes in laws, changes in Attorney General opinions, all kinds of great things that you need to know so that your book will stay current. If you want to get a copy of the big orange book, New Jersey Gun Law, go to EvanNappen.com, EvanNappen.com. Click the big orange book, and you’ll have it within a matter of days. Protect yourself and know New Jersey gun laws before you become the next GOFU. You want to avoid that. So, I have some great letters from listeners, which I always enjoy. Lou, if you have anything to add to any of these, please feel free. I’m glad you’re staying on as we go through the show.

Louis Nappen 31:31
Thank you for not besmirching me.

Evan Nappen 31:34
Ah, yes. I will not besmirch you today at least.

Louis Nappen 31:38
I’m determined to bring that word back.

Evan Nappen 31:41
I think you should. It’s a great word. And it’s one that we need to hear more of. Okay, this one is from David, regarding gun serial number wrong on original purchase. Hi, Evan. Thank you for the great information. I’m a reader and listener. I hope you are well. Today I went to fill in for SP-182a to add a gun to my PTC. The gun was purchased in New Jersey, so it’s already registered on the New Jersey government list. I wanted to make sure not to make an error. So, I double checked the serial number against both the gun itself and my original permit to purchase. I discovered that they don’t match! On the original purchase, the seller, a dealer, not an individual, left out a zero – instead of and then he gives a serial number that had a zero in it. Okay, well this isn’t the actual serial number. So, he said ABC0123, and they wrote ABC123 on the permit. So now I’m a little concerned. If I register the gun on the SP-182a as ABC123, I’m perpetuating the error and not filling out the form correctly. But if I register the gun on the SP-182a as ABC0123, I’m effectively notifying the police that the original purchase permit was incorrect. This sounds like the classic paperwork error that lands people in the Gulag, and I don’t want to be the GOFU. If it matters, the original purchase was in 2010, so perhaps the statute of limitations has lapsed?

Evan Nappen 33:14
So, what we have there would be what a Scrivener’s error, arguably just a typographical error, on the permit. The permit to purchase is just that. It’s a permit to purchase, and it’s only valid for 90 days unless you get it extended for another 90 days. It doesn’t mean a damn thing. It allowed you to make the purchase. You made the purchase. You lawfully made your purchase. With that said, the screw up on that doesn’t matter, but you need to be truthful in what you submit now. So, you need to use the correct and proper serial number on your gun. And that’s all you have to do. Look you can even put

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guns on there that don’t have any Jersey paper. We’ve reviewed on the show many ways you can have guns in New Jersey that don’t have any permit to purchase behind it. Now I don’t recommend you do that, only because there’s no reason to put guns that aren’t on the state’s radar on the state’s radar. But if you want to do that, you’re welcome to do it. There is no issue here to worry about. Just put the truthful serial number on the form if that’s a gun that you want to carry. Lou, do you have any comments on that one?

Louis Nappen 34:30
Peripherally, just he says he does not want to be the GOFU. You need a term for people who are proactive in making sure they don’t become a GOFU. I don’t know if that’s PAFO, Pro Active or unGOFU? Or . . .

Evan Nappen 34:48
something that has been unbesmirched, unbesmirched . . .

Louis Nappen 34:52
People who take preventative measures to make sure they don’t get in trouble. That’s the unGOFU. Oh, yeah, right. Right like antebellum is before. Right?

Evan Nappen 35:06
Yeah, very good. So, good question from David. Now I have one from Jordan. Jordan says, good morning. In 2021, I moved to New Jersey from Pennsylvania. Oh, you have my condolences, pal, too bed. I brought with me a handgun I purchased in Pennsylvania when I was a Pennsylvania resident. Do I need any type of permit or ID card to take that same handgun to the range in Pennsylvania? Do I need to register it in New Jersey since I moved here before the enactment of S-1204. I have two lock boxes for ammo and the handgun. I would transport them in my trunk. I will be driving through New Jersey to get to the PA range and back. Thanks for your help.

Evan Nappen 35:45
Okay, since you moved prior to the new law, there’s no requirement for you to register your guns. It is for new residents after the law. You moved before the law. So, you do not have to register your handgun. Residents themselves have no obligation to register. Only people that have the sorry fortune of having to move to New Jersey after the law. They have to not only register their guns, but also they have to first get a Firearms Purchaser ID Card, and they have to do all that within 60 days. Good luck with that. The whole law is an absurdity anyway, but you’re fine. You don’t need to register it. You don’t have to register it.

Evan Nappen 36:20
As far as transporting to Pennsylvania, you would transport your gun cased and unloaded. If you’re going to have it locked, that’s even better. Since you’re going from your home directly to the range, that’s an exemption itself under N.J.S. 2C:39-6.f. of New Jersey gun laws. N.J.S. 2C:39-6.f. is going directly to the target range. It doesn’t have to be within the state. Once you are in Pennsylvania, make sure you obey all Pennsylvania laws, of course, as well. Plus, you arguably might have Title 18 926 A of the federal law for your interstate transportation covering you as well. Again, locked, separate ammo,

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unloaded, etc. You’re doing it right. You can transport to the range accordingly, and you do not have to register your gun. Is there anything you’d like to add there to Jordan?

Louis Nappen 37:10
Yes, actually. It reminds me of when, and Pennsylvania has since changed his slogan, I’m sad to say, because I used to like when I would cross the Walt Whitman or the Delaware or the Bristol Bridge any of those bridges that cross into Pennsylvania. When you went there, they used to have the big signs with the Pennsylvania slogan, America Starts Here. They meant Philadelphia 1776. But I still

Evan Nappen 37:40
I always had something even more because that was the time of Governor Florio.

Louis Nappen 37:45
And I always laugh because . . .

Evan Nappen 37:46
Governor Florio with all that horrible stuff. He was always going on about toilet paper, banning runny eggs, and gun control. So, when you cross into Pennsylvania,

Louis Nappen 37:55
I always laughed at that because I said right. When you leave New Jersey, that’s where America starts. America starts here. Now that you’ve entered Pennsylvania. Yeah, that’s what that reminded me of. I didn’t have anything to add. Other than that is my analysis of that, too. He has the gun and that’s the serial number.

Evan Nappen 38:14
I said, you’re good to go. Here’s a question that says, hey, Evan, please mark me down as anonymous if you read my message on your show. Okay, anonymous, you got it.

Louis Nappen 38:26
He’s written more books than I. It’s amazing how many books Anonymous has written.

Evan Nappen 38:31
Yeah, he’s prolific. Okay, I appreciate everything that you do in the Second Amendment community. Thanks. So, I’ve recently moved, and my court issued carry permit is nearing expiration, within the next six months. Is there a timeframe that I have to change my address? Like the 30 days for my Firearms ID Card? Or should I just renew my PTC within the new jurisdiction? Also, since I’ve moved, it has proven difficult to find my original, physical, FID and PTC, I’ve made copies, do I need the physical FID to change the address, as it is digital now? I do not want to put it down as lost. Also, I know you need four references to renew your PTC now, and family is not allowed to be listed as references. Are cousins considered family in the state of New Jersey? Again, I appreciate your help on this matter and taking the time to answer my questions. Thank you.

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Evan Nappen 39:34
All right, Lou, why don’t you go at these. Go right ahead.

Louis Nappen 39:37
Oh, great. Okay. It’s like a law school thing. Right? Exactly. Never sit in the front row. No, actually well, there is one or two comments, but then you fill in the rest.

Evan Nappen 39:49
Here’s the deal. As your court-issued carry permit is nearing expiration, just apply to renew your PTC. It is going to ask for your SBI number, which is on your Firearms ID card. You can utilize that. You can just renew your PTC in your new jurisdiction. Now, since you’re in a new jurisdiction, you need to change your address on your FID card, you are going to submit to do that. It shouldn’t matter about having the original physical card. But you need a change of address, anyway, and the change of address and the lost card are actually the same form. I don’t know if you can actually mark both boxes anyway. But you plainly have the change of address issue. If it lets you mark both boxes, it’s no big deal. Mark both boxes, saying you lost it and change of ID. Who cares? It’s the same licensing application process, and it’s the same criteria under N.J.S. 2C:58-3 determination. All that is going to be the same. So, that’s not an issue.

Evan Nappen 41:02
As far as the four references go, I’d avoid anything touching on family, whether it’s cousins or in-laws. There’s no sense in having reference issues when you just need four folks that plainly aren’t family. But I would give you a heads up, and it’s a GOFU that we’ve talked about in the past. Make sure that you clear your references in advance. Make sure they’re on board to approve you and that they are going to approve you. They don’t mind that you’re putting them on there as references, that they’re pro gun, pro you having a gun, and most importantly, that as soon as they get the email from the state, they answer those few questions and send it back right away so that your gun application doesn’t get stalled for lack of reference response.

Louis Nappen 41:50
I do have some things to add, two or three things. First off, if you have to get your permit anyway for a handgun purchase. I mean a Firearms Purchaser ID Card, you might as well check off and make it an excuse to go get yourself another handgun. Also, if you just apply for a handgun, they automatically also issue you the Firearms ID Card. So, it doesn’t even need to look like you applied for a new one because when you apply for your handgun, that comes with it. I’m pretty sure nowadays in the electronic version for the handgun purchase permit. So, that’s one.

Evan Nappen 42:21
Yeah, it’s always good to get some more guns, which is always important, always buying when you can.

Louis Nappen 42:27
The second thing is references. It’s interesting, they changed the rule on Firearm Purchaser ID Card and Permits to Purchase a Handgun that you may use relatives for those, but for carry permits, you

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may not use relatives. I don’t know if they delineated. They did delineate like in certain areas with the certificates of eligibility, who you may transfer to, for that. And that is immediate family – fathers, sons, sisters, brothers, like that. But I don’t know if there’s an actual list. I would as you just said, why even go there? Just find another person to use, not your cousin. Then to reiterate what you said, I’ve had more than my share of cases, our firm has had more than our share of cases, where people poorly chose, just like out of Indiana Jones, you chose poorly. Your references. For the most part, I do not recommend using your boss. We’ve had issues because of that. You know what’s going to happen. You’re going to get in a fight with your boss, or he’s going to use it over your head right before the email comes.

Evan Nappen 43:33
Yeah, so that’s why you didn’t use me as a reference, huhh?

Louis Nappen 43:37
Well, I’m not allowed to use a family member. Then also, I had somebody who used their landlord. They said, can I put you down for a reference? And she said, yes. When she gets it, the landlord says, I don’t think anyone should have a gun. He didn’t inform her or do the proper questioning. So, the police department investigator gets, she doesn’t want anyone. She’s being nice. She doesn’t want him to have a gun. She’s just saying no one should have a gun. Most landlords, I would think are probably like I don’t want guns in my lands that I’m renting out or anything. Just don’t use your landlord unless you really know for a fact that it’s like your hunting buddy. Something like that. That’s a different scenario. Also, when it comes to using bosses, I would think twice if you worked in a school system, not the most, that you’re pursuing it, or the classic, you work at the post office. There’s that term “going postal” that they probably don’t want their employees necessarily being particularly pro-gun. I just wouldn’t. I just have a guy . . .

Evan Nappen 44:37
I remember we had a case with a postal worker where he had, I think it was 400 guns seized. Not only were we able to win his case, but he never lost his job, which was really great considering how ridiculous the post office can be on that type of thing.

Louis Nappen 44:58
Yeah, choose progun references. If they have a Firearms ID Card, that’s the best reference because you don’t want references who have criminal backgrounds. They may check them to see if they’re good people. So, . . .

Evan Nappen 45:08
Also, that could create them. That’s true. So, here is the last question, and then we’re going to do the GOFU of the week. This is from David who says, Hi, Evan. Assuming I bought my handguns in New Jersey, which means they’re already on record in the police database, is there any downside to listing every one of them as possible carries on my PTC? I could understand avoiding registering a gun by not adding an untracked firearm, but if my handguns already exist in police records, what’s the downside to including them all?

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Evan Nappen 45:18
In my opinion, there’s no downside to including them all. That way you can carry any gun you wish to carry. They’re all listed accordingly. I don’t see any problem with that. Do you, Lou?

Louis Nappen 46:00
Of listing any of your handguns? Well, I would

Evan Nappen 46:03
Any handgun that he already has on record because

Louis Nappen 46:08
Again, that’s the key. He already has them on record. If I inherited firearms I probably wouldn’t. Why would I want them to know about them?

Evan Nappen 46:15
We’re talking about having papered guns, putting every papered handgun on the list?

Louis Nappen 46:20
Sure can. sure, get one I not do

Evan Nappen 46:22
You might also have an advantage if you want to transport it to the range or you want to carry it there. If it’s listed on your license anyway as a gun you could carry, it can only enhance your position. So, there’s probably even some benefits to doing that arguably given whatever circumstances might come up.

Louis Nappen 46:43
I don’t see a downside. It might be nice to have a listing of all the guns, so you have it for yourself even. You know, here’s all my guns that I know are registered.

Evan Nappen 46:52
Yes. So, here is our GOFU of the week, which is of course the Gun Owner Fuck Up. The GOFU is really important because these are expensive lessons that others have learned that you get to learn on the cheap by listening for free to Gun Lawyer. So, this week’s GOFU, I call the domestic violence backfire. What happens is individuals end up having some type of spat or problem with their spouse or significant other or household member etc. New Jersey makes it extremely easy, frankly, to file a domestic violence restraining order. If you need such protection, I don’t want to discourage you from getting such protection. But you need to realize that if you’re going to pull that trigger and file against your spouse, significant other that you’re residing with, or household member, etc. and any of the folks that meet the definition of “victim” in this case, you’re the victim, but they could meet that definition. Often what occurs is two things. You get a possibility of a counter against you, and guns that belong to everybody in the household get seized. Then we have to fight to get your guns back. We’ve seen it where even the plaintiff, even when there isn’t a counter, gets their guns seized. Lou, why don’t you tell the listeners about that type of situation?

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Louis Nappen 48:34
Oh, sure. Yeah, I don’t know whether you want to call it bad recoil or a breach. Right? Okay, so you’ve applied for a TRO (Temporary Restraining Order), and it comes back at you. I’ve had more than my share of these cases where the very person, and often it’s interesting because in this scenario, it tends to be the women, where I’ve seen it more often. They are the ones who are seeking the restraining orders, percentage wise, more often than the men. They seek a restraining order, but they themselves are also firearm owners. So, they get a restraining order, and the police come and seize all the firearms in the residence.

Louis Nappen 49:19 Even the victim.

Louis Nappen 49:20 Even the victim.

Evan Nappen 49:21
When the victim is a legitimate victim of domestic violence who’s . . .

Evan Nappen 49:27
That very person who they fought, now instead of having a gun, you’ve got a piece of paper only. How nice.

Louis Nappen 49:27
Now that’s really nothing . . .

Louis Nappen 49:35
That’s right. She is now disarmed to protect herself when she was the one who called and needs the protection. So, as you just said, all you get is a target. You can hold up a piece of paper for . . .

Evan Nappen 49:49 Yeah, it’s really insane.

Louis Nappen 49:50
It’s insane. Also, I’d like to put out there sometimes it’s not the victim as much as the father who also lives in the household of that victim. They reside together in the parents’ house, the third party. An innocent third party. The woman had none. I’m generalizing here. They come and they take any guns in the house. So, meanwhile, there’s a third party who’s like, I’m not involved with their dispute. But they take all the firearms, typically his, and there are cases where now if they come in, they took, and there’s a famous case, unfortunately, I should say infamous. They came in and took the relative’s firearms and the relative had a firearm that was, under New Jersey law, considered an assault firearm. Because he had firearms seized pursuant to domestic violence, even though he was not one of the named parties, that were not returned to him, he’s now forever barred. There was no intent of the person who called to ever get their father in trouble on . . .

Page – 19 – of 21

Evan Nappen 50:59
the possession. The reason they are eternally barred is that New Jersey has a law that says anybody, you don’t have to be the plaintiff, you don’t have to be the defendant, you can be the victim, you can be a plaintiff, it could be a third party, an innocent third party, anybody who’s had guns seized pursuant to domestic violence becomes prohibited from having a license and prohibited from gun possession. That’s why, if your guns get seized, you have to fight to get them returned, every time. Even if it’s just some piece of junk top breaker shotgun that you couldn’t get 20 bucks for at a gun buyback or some broken BB gun. If you don’t get your guns returned, you become a prohibited person – the equivalent of a convicted felon.

Louis Nappen 51:45
I’d like to clarify that. It’s domestic violence gun seizures. So many people think that it’s if I had a firearm that was seized and not returned. No, it’s domestic. If it was seized pursuant to domestic violence. It was from an allegation of domestic violence.

Louis Nappen 51:45
Not TERPOs, FERPOs or any other things. For DV gun seizures, that is the law.

Louis Nappen 52:02
Ironically, even criminal if you possess because it’s contraband.

Evan Nappen 52:05
Something else that doesn’t constitute a gory right a DV.

Louis Nappen 52:09
This is the type of matter, and I’m raising this, that I hope we get the case that takes it up that under the Bruen standard, should not be upheld if you once had a firearm not returned to you, your rights were attached to that firearm forever. Just imagine if you once committed libel and you forever can’t go to church, assemble, publish again. You lose all your first amendment rights.

Evan Nappen 52:34 I mean, right, yeah,

Louis Nappen 52:35
Because you once had something that was not returned to you or was found you didn’t do it right. Yeah, that.

Evan Nappen 52:42
Lou, that is why gun laws in New Jersey do not protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens. Thanks for being on the show man. You’re well. Keep up the fight.

Page – 20 – of 21

Speaker 3 52:59
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Page – 21 – of 21

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E187_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 186-It’s Not Just Pineapples and Kona in Hawaii AnymoreAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 186Page – 1 – of 7

Gun Lawyer — Episode 186 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

knife, law, new jersey, exemptions, id card, firearms, possession, great, hawaii, rights, evan, gun,

police, gun owner, second amendment, transport, mags, switchblade, repeal, ban

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:18

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I have some exciting news in the ever evolving

Second Amendment challenges that we keep seeing. And, you know, it’s really wonderful. Even though

there’s so many lousy laws there and the antis keep having their hissy fits and passing new laws, the

power of Bruen continues on. As I’ve said before, the Second Amendment is not the right to keep and

bear guns. It is the right to keep and bear arms, and arms include any type of weapon for self-defense,

etc. So, I want to see legalization and removal of any law that restricts our rights to personal defense,

firearms or any other weapon. I’m happy to let you know that the State of Hawaii. Yes, I mean, you

think of Hawaii as very liberal, very anti-Second Amendment, and they are. They absolutely are. But

what Hawaii did, other than selling us pineapples and Kona coffee, I love Kona coffee. It is my favorite.

But anyway, what Hawaii did was legalize by actually repealing the law, legalized butterfly knives,

switchblade knives, and gravity knives, as well as brass knuckles, including trench knives, and

Karambits, and swords and spears. That’s right. They repealed. The State of Hawaii repealed all those

laws for sale, manufacture, transfer, possession and transportation of all these other weapons.

(https://kniferights.org/legislative-update/hawaii-legalizes-butterfly-switchblade-gravity-knives/)

Evan Nappen 02:46

Now that is wonderful, absolutely wonderful. I’m so happy for the folks in Hawaii who no longer will be

turned into criminals for simple possession of these items, many of which are very collectible, very

desirable, and very much part of a history of weapons development and culture. Why repeal it now?

Why would Hawaii do such a thing? Did they suddenly have an epiphany about the Second

Amendment and malum prohibitum laws that ban weapons? No, not at all. Not at all. That would be

giving them way too much credit. What happened was that Hawaii got put between a rock and a hard

place. I guess they kind of got hit with a tsunami, you might say, because of a case that was brought, a

court case brought in a challenge to these very laws. That case is Teter versus Lopez.

(https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2023/08/07/20-15948.pdf) The court there, the Ninth

Circuit Court of Appeals, found that their ban on butterfly knives, you know, balisongs or butterfly

knives, was a violation of the Second Amendment. Because of that, they pushed forward to see if they

could get an en bank, the full panel, to review the case. They are taking a big risk because they feel

that if the loss is confirmed, it’s going to put in jeopardy all their other laws, you know, regarding

firearms and other things. So, what they did was an attempt to moot out, to moot, the case. But to moot

the case, it meant having to legalize all these weapons.Page – 2 – of 7

Evan Nappen 05:08

Now the case is still proceeding because the attorneys involved are still claiming the carry portion, you

know, the ability to carry, should still be alive from this and maybe continue it. But the court may just

throw it out as moot now that the law itself has been tossed. I don’t know what the outcome will be. But

regardless, there will still be other days for other challenges, and it is a tremendous win. It’s a

tremendous win, because getting rid of those stupid laws is in the plus column for freedom, liberty, and

the Second Amendment. So, this is really great. It shows you the power of Bruen, not only in the courts

themselves, but to actually force otherwise anti-Second Amendment legislators to have to repeal laws

in order to keep the challengers out of the courts. That’s great. That’s fantastic. It’s absolutely fantastic.

Evan Nappen 06:21

Knife Rights did play a role here. Knife Rights is the organization in America that vigorously defends our

knife rights. You might loosely consider them the NRA of knives, but they’re actually more effective than

the NRA, actually, interestingly. We’ll get more into that in a moment. But Knife Rights put in an Amicus

Brief in the court challenge and all. Congratulations are due to the attorneys in the case, which are Alan

Beck and Stephen Stamboulieh. They were the attorneys that brought the case on Teter, and this really

forced them into it. Teter versus Lopez was a huge Second Amendment win for all knife owners and

Second Amendment supporters. Also, credit is due to the San Diego County Gun Owners Political

Action Committee and the Firearms Policy Coalition, who also joined in the Amicus. Doug Ritter (Knife

Rights Chairman) said, “this is a huge victory for knife owners and knifemakers in Hawaii. Knife Rights

is proud to have played a role with our Amicus Brief in the Teter versus Lopez appeal. . .” Ritter further

said, while Knife Rights welcomes this new law loosening the restrictions on knife possession, it doesn’t

finish the job in Hawaii. We still have work to do and look forward to working with our friends to continue

the fight until there are no restrictions on carry in Hawaii.

Evan Nappen 08:02

Now, this is really great stuff. It’s something where I think we’re going to see down the road, a challenge

to New Jersey’s prohibitions on switchblades, daggers, dirks, stilettos, gravity knives, knuckles, etc. as

well. This is a great indication of the power of Bruen and how those things can be effective as a win.

Additionally, you know, Knife Rights has really been at the forefront of the knife liberty movement. Doug

is a friend of mine, and I’m their counsel as well. I’m really proud of the work Knife Rights has done, and

the knife liberty movement actually started with Knife Rights. We were able, originally in 2010, for the

first time in modern times, to get New Hampshire to do a full repeal of New Hampshire’s ban on

switchblades, daggers, Dirks, stilettos. I’ve talked about that on other shows and that led to the

groundwork.

Evan Nappen 09:13

From 2010 to now, Knife Rights has resulted in 49 bills repealing knife bans in 31 states and 190 cities

and towns. That’s really amazing work. Those states include, by the way, Alabama, Alaska, Arizona,

Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan,

Missouri, Montana, Nebraska. Nevada, New Hampshire, New York, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania.

Did you know they legalized switchblades now in Pennsylvania? Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia,Page – 3 – of 7

Washington, West Virginia, and Wisconsin. The reason Hawaii is now added to the list is the past

preemption, as well. So, these are things that are just amazing.

Evan Nappen 10:28

Knife Rights has actually stopped 10 Anti-knife bills, including an anti-knife bill out of New Jersey, by

the way. And out of Florida, Maryland, New York, Nevada, Texas, and Washington. So, those are the

anti-knife bills that were stopped and all these pro-knife bills that have been passed. Now you can see

the Bruen court case is having tremendous impact. Knife Rights has now brought a federal challenge to

The Federal Switchblade Act, the FSA, as we’ve talked about before. So, things are really, really

looking up in terms of the expansion of the enforcement of our Second Amendment rights concerning

arms. All this goes to helping the fight across the board for guns as well.

Evan Nappen 11:31

This is the entire picture, and it’s so exciting to see positive results. How often do we get to say in

America that we gained freedom? I mean, it’s almost sad for me to say that. But the truth of it is, it is not

common for us to gain freedom. Yet here we are gaining freedom. It’s sad that we have to fight to gain

back our freedom, but it is happy that we are succeeding in doing so. Look, we lost our rights

incrementally across the board on so many of these things, and now we’re gaining them back

incrementally and at a record pace in the big picture. So, as much as these things get us upset about

various laws and infringements, at least, we can take heart in knowing that the times are a changing

and that we are succeeding. We’ve been given the tools by the trifecta of Heller, McDonald and Bruen

in the United States Supreme Court to continue our march, gaining freedom and liberty in the

expansion of our Second Amendment rights. It helps us not just in court case wins, in the cases that

win in the courts, but also in effecting legislative change, and that’s what this stands for. That’s good

stuff, folks. Really good stuff.

Evan Nappen 13:33

And you know, our friends at WeShoot, which is one of my favorite ranges in New Jersey, understand

this. They’re an indoor pistol range, and they are in Lakewood, New Jersey. Easy access, right off the

Parkway. They are just a fantastic place. If you’ve never been to WeShoot, you need to go there. If you

have been there, then you know what I’m talking about. WeShoot will treat you like family. Mention my

name, and they’ll treat you like royalty. They are the best! They have everything you need, and it’s kind

of exciting because they have this really great gun now, the Rost Martin. Have you ever seen the Rost

Martin the RM1C? This gun is really cool. I mean, they have a lot of great stuff there, and they can

totally outfit you. But this Rost Martin is kind of amazing. It is somewhat similar to a Glock 19, but it

actually shoots better. It has lots of whistles and bells, great features. It’s MOS, ready for your optic,

and all good to go. Do you realize that this gun has an MSRP of only $465?

Evan Nappen 14:53

The folks at WeShoot are now running their special Member Appreciation Month deals for May. So, you

can cash in on that if you’re a member. Or if you’re not a member and you want to join, they’re offering

$100 off memberships as an exclusive for new members. This is a golden opportunity to become part

of the WeShoot family. You’ll see exactly what I’m talking about. To have a resource like WeShoot is so

important, especially in Central Jersey, where things are so crowded, and there really aren’t that manyPage – 4 – of 7

places to shoot. And here you have this great range there that you can take advantage of. So, go see

my friends at WeShoot. Check out weshootusa.com They have a magnificent website, beautiful

photography. You’ll be glad you did. Mention my name and watch what happens. It’s like magic. It’s a

great place – WeShoot in Lakewood, New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 16:05

I also want to mention our good friends at the state Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle &

Pistol Clubs. They are the premier gun rights defender in New Jersey. Every one of my listeners needs

to belong to the state Association. They are the umbrella organization of gun clubs, but they also have

individual memberships. When you join, you increase our power. Our power is in numbers, and our

power is an organization and membership. This group really stands out. They have a full time paid

lobbyist in Trenton, and they are the folks litigating as we speak in federal court on the ban on modern

sporting rifles, so-called Assault Firearms, and the ban on standard capacity magazines, so-called large

capacity magazines. They’re also battling Murphy’s Carry Killer law, which was their big hissy fit after

Bruen, and we’re taking down that law in the courts. Helping us expand our ability to use our shall issue

carry throughout the state. This is a group you want to be part of. You’ll get their emails and alerts and

be able to instantly take action. You’ll also get their great newsletter, best gun newsletter about New

Jersey out there, and you’ll know that you’re doing your part. So go to anjrpc.org and join today. Go

there and join ANJRPC. Be part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 17:50

Here is where I shamelessly promote my book, New Jersey Gun Law, which is the Bible of New Jersey

gun law. That’s it man. It is the one and only authoritative Nappen Orange Book on New Jersey gun

law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a question and answer format. Explained easily for you to

understand it. It is used by the New Jersey State Police Firearms Units, by police, and used by judges

and lawyers. But most importantly, it’s used by gun owners throughout the state so they can stay safe

in New Jersey and hopefully not become a victim of New Jersey’s gun laws. Nor commit any GOFUs,

which is easy enough to do in New Jersey. This book will help protect you. When you get your book,

scan the front cover, and make sure you subscribe for free to my subscriber base. You will get alerts as

to any updates, and you’ll have full access to all the archives of any past updates and important info so

that your book stays current. So, when you get the book, do that, and stay current. You’ll have at your

fingertips the ability to remain a law-abiding gun owner in the very treacherous state of New Jersey.

You can buy my book on my website at EvanNappen.com. Just go to EvanNappen.com, and you’ll see

the big orange book. Click on it, and in a matter of days, you’ll have your very own copy.

Evan Nappen 19:39

Now I have received some great letters. The old Ask Evan letters, and I love receiving letters from my

listeners. You guys are great, and I appreciate the questions. So, here is a question from Steven.

Steven says regarding firearms ID card. Evan, I just had my permit to carry and firearms ID card printed

on plastic cards to fit in my wallet by NJ Liberty cards. I noticed that my old Firearms ID card from 1981

says “permit to purchase and transport rifles and shotguns”. My new Firearms ID card says,

“permission to purchase rifles and shotguns pursuant to N.J.S. 2C:58-3”. They removed “transport”

from the FID cards. Does that change being able to have a rifle or shotgun in your car? Are thesePage – 5 – of 7

shrunk down to wallet size plastic cards legal for PTC and Firearms ID cards? Regular follower of

yours, and I have the old edition and the anniversary edition of your gun law book. Regards, Steven.

Evan Nappen 20:54

Well, thanks, Steve. We have a couple of questions kind of interspersed in that but let me answer both.

So, first of all, what’s the deal with these plastic cards? Well, you know what, I don’t see any problem

with it, and I’ll tell you why. These things are sent to you electronically, and you have to print them on

some medium of some sort. It doesn’t require to be on paper. Why? It’s better on plastic, frankly. It lasts

longer. It doesn’t dissolve away. I think it’s a great idea. And why wouldn’t it be? I mean, they’re done

online. They’re sent to you online. They’re provided in that way. So, why not? If you want to have it on

plastic, or paper, or some other material that’s printable, as long as it’s legible, and there is a permit,

which is exactly what it is, officially printed permit that was electronically sent to you, I don’t see a

problem with that.

Evan Nappen 21:59

Now on the other question about the change of the language, yeah, they modified the language, but it

is not a change in the law. Because the law on Firearms Purchaser ID cards, which is under N.J.S.

2C:39-5.c., talks about rifles and shotguns. What it says is that no person shall possess any rifle or

shotgun unless first having obtained a New Jersey Firearms Purchaser Identification Card. So, that’s

the normal possession charge that you would face on the possession of a long arm rifle or shotgun. But

if you have a Firearms Identification Card, you’re exempted on the face of the statute for that

possession. Then there’s another provision that says you cannot have your gun loaded unless

otherwise permitted by law. So, the other permissions by law that allow for loaded firearms being long

arms are found in the exemptions, which are narrow, including N.J.S. 2C:39-6.e., which is possession

in your home or place of business, etc. You can read N.J.S. 2C:39-6.e. about that exemption. Or under

f., which is going hunting or to the target range. Those exemptions would allow for loaded and/or

transport unloaded, as long as you’re transporting pursuant to subsection g., which we’ve discussed

before. This requires the gun to be unloaded and essentially cased or locked in the trunk, or a closed

and fastened case, or in a gun box, etc. So, those are the exemptions. The Firearms (Purchaser) ID

card itself exempts your possession for the unloaded rifle or shotgun. Now when we talk about

transport, if you’re stopped with a gun in your car, the charge is going to be unlawful possession. Your

Firearms ID card covers you for that possession while you’re in the mode of transport. It’s not about a

separate transport prohibition. Because if you don’t have a Firearms ID Card, then you have to be

transporting pursuant to the exemptions while going to the exempted places. But what is that exempting

you from? N.J.S. 2C:39-5c., which is the possession law that we just said has in that law itself the

Firearms ID card, right on the face of it, as an exemption. In other words, if you’re possessing a rifle or

shotgun, unloaded, and you have a Firearms ID Card, you don’t even have to go to the exemptions for

any type of coverage. Because you’re not exemption dependent now. You have the Firearms ID card

that the statute requires. But if you don’t have it, then you have to rely on exemptions. Now, in New

Jersey, you should do both. Stay within the exemptions and have a Firearms ID card. Because it’s like

wearing a belt and suspenders here, you know. You have got to be give yourself every advantage and

protection, whether it’s by exemption or license. This is how our law currently functions, but I believe

eventually, because of how it functions, and it’s so stupid, frankly, it’s going to be knocked out as

unconstitutional. Challenges are brewing as we speak. But for now, you don’t want to have a problem.Page – 6 – of 7

You want to be legal. A Firearms ID card is still a powerful tool to remain legal. Try to stay within the

exemptions as well as have the Firearms ID card. Make sure your gun is unloaded and cased properly

for transport, etc. so that you can seek the shelter of both the license and the exemption. All right.

Thanks, Steve, for some really good questions.

Evan Nappen 26:22

Now I have a letter from Richard. Richard says Evan, regarding your podcast on Glock 43X Mags. I

emailed Glock customer service and within one day I received an email asking me how many mags do I

have and what is my home address. They are not requesting the mags be returned. The new AHA

arrived within a week in a plain vanilla envelope without any retail packaging. No questions asked. I

received five mags. Well, that’s very good that you did not have to unlawfully transport your mags, or

unlawfully dispose of your mags or unlawfully do anything else.

Evan Nappen 27:18

The problem, though, of course, is you did make a written email admission supposedly to possessing

illegal mags. But other than that, it’s nice that Glock did send you mags without any questions asked or

having to subject yourself to further risk. But it still doesn’t address the problem of the current

possession of your mags. For that the only legal thing you can do is a voluntary surrender under N.J.S.

2C:39-12, where you can give notice to the police of the date and time of surrender, and you can get rid

of the mags that are problematic. That’s the only legal way to handle it. So, as an attorney, I have to

advise you of that. I’m glad to hear that Glock is making good on it, supposedly, but it would be really

nice if they put out something official. Then we might be able to get the arrangements made for legal

transport of bad mags to dealers so that good mags could be provided. We could cut down on all the

risky stuff involved with this. But thanks, Richard, for reporting back on your experience.

Evan Nappen 28:46

Now I have a letter from a Julio, and Julio says regarding the Firearm ID card return if moving out of

New Jersey. Hi, Evan, if moving to another state like North Carolina, do I have to turn in my Firearms ID

card? Well, the answer Julio is you have to do something. One of your options is to voluntarily

surrender your Firearms ID card. However, your other option is you can apply for a change of address

to your new address in North Carolina. Now you have to do one or the other within 30 days of changing

your address. So, you either can send back your card and voluntarily surrender it within the 30 days

because you have moved and you don’t plan to ever come back to New Jersey, which I can

understand. Or you can get a change of address on your current FID, which is actually a good thing to

do, and here’s why. Your FID card has on it your SBI number. Now if you do a change of address that

SBI number will remain, and then you can get a New Jersey Permit to Carry as well, utilizing that SBI

number. You won’t even have to get fingerprinted because your SBI number exists. You can apply right

online and get a New Jersey Permit to Carry as a non-resident because you have a New Jersey FID

non-resident card with your SBI number. So, if you wish to keep that FID card, then do the change of

address which also opens the door for you to get your Jersey carry. It’s the same carry that residents

have. You’ll be able to carry under the law in Jersey, just like a resident could. These are things you

need to consider in your own personal circumstances as to whether you want to give New Jersey the

full kiss off, or whether you might still want to come back and visit family, visit friends, or have a reasonPage – 7 – of 7

to be here. Therefore, do the change of address route. But either way, Julio, thanks for the great

question.

Evan Nappen 31:21

Now comes the most popular segment of the show. It’s the GOFU time That’s right, the Gun Owner

Fuck Up. The greatest thing about GOFUs is that it is a very expensive lesson that somebody else has

learned that you get to learn for free, because you listen to the show. It’s based on actual cases and

real things that happened. So, this week’s GOFU is about an individual who went to the police

regarding a prior job situation and spoke to them about it. But they ended up mentioning, just ended up

talking and mentioning that he had or she, I won’t even tell you the sex, could be a man or woman,

spoke to the officer that they were engaged with there and mentioned that they had gotten therapy

because they had gained weight. So, this is weight loss therapy, in effect. Because it was therapy, the

officer said, hey, when you applied for your gun permits, and it said, have you ever been treated or

observed by any doctor, psychiatrists for any mental or physical condition, you wrote no. You didn’t

mention your weight gain therapy. Oh, boy. Now the escalation comes in. The dangers of revocation,

confiscation, possibly even criminal charges for falsification, all because of mentioning therapy for

weight gain.

Evan Nappen 33:23

Listen, folks, the GOFU is don’t talk to the police. Okay? I don’t know how I can make it any clearer.

When you talk to the police, you’re taking a risk. Something that you may not ever think is in any way a

problem, suddenly blows up to be a problem. You think, oh, I’m fine. I was wronged. I’m in the right, and

I’ve been wronged. I’m the victim of some offense or crime or something like that, and you go to the

police. You figure the police are your friend, and they’re there to help you. They would be reasonable.

And guess what happens? This stuff happens. And look, I’m not anti-police. I’m not saying this because

of being anti-police. We need our police. We wouldn’t have a civilized society without police. I treasure

our police. Honestly, I do. I mean it. They’re good people, and we need to support them. It’s not about

that. They have a job to do, and they’re trained to do it. The policies and the procedures are there. If

you say these things, you force them into a position.

Evan Nappen 34:49

Now this seems a bit absurd that it’s over this. But, if they don’t take the steps and then something else

comes out, guess who gets in trouble? They do. So, you’ve now put yourself in a bad position, and you

put them in a bad position because you didn’t know to shut up and not involve police in your life if you

can avoid it. Okay, so that’s the GOFU, folks. Keep it in mind. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that

gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 35:33

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by

Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and

opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E186_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 185-Murphy’s Racist Gun Laws EXPOSED!Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 185SUMMARY KEYWORDS

new jersey, blacks, law, guns, second amendment rights, denials, gun laws, glock, firearms, gun, great,

attorney general’s office, chiefs, gun rights, find, john, rights, deals, folks, nra

SPEAKERS

John Petrolino, Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00

Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Well, I’m very happy today because we have a very

special guest on the show. That person is a good friend of mine and really one of my favorite gun

writers. You know, we talk about gun rights. Then there are folks who write about gun rights. So, there

are gun writers on gun rights. John Petrolino is an excellent gun writer. (https://johnpetrolino.com) I

read all his stuff, and I strongly suggest that you do the same. John is on the show today because we

wanted to discuss one of his latest articles that I think is extremely important. So, John, welcome to

Gun Lawyer.

John Petrolino 01:15

Hello Evan. Thank you for having me. Hello, listeners to Gun Lawyer. Hello, Americans and patriots all.

How’s everyone doing?

Evan Nappen 01:23

Well, I’ll tell you, man, it is never ending, as you know, in our fight for Second Amendment rights. You

really chronicle and identify key issues, and you really get it when it comes to understanding what we’re

dealing with. So, I want to encourage all my listeners to read anytime they see that byline of John

Petrolino. Now, this most recent article, I think, is very important. (https://bearingarms.com/john-

petrolino/2024/05/09/nj-attorney-general-platkin-responds-to-racial-bias-allegations-on-permits-to-carry-

n1224835) It is something that if it was in the other side of the political arena, it would be headlining

everywhere. But because of the media bias and what we are constantly battling for, it doesn’t get the

publicity and the attention that it needs. But that’s one of the roles of Gun Lawyer, of this show. It’s what

you do, and I do. We put out the truth. So, why don’t you tell us about your recent findings? When you

examined the New Jersey Attorney General’s release of the carry permit data, tell me what you

discovered?

John Petrolino 02:55

Well, the first thing that happened was, I mean, this was super exciting. I think that’s when I called you.

You and I got on the phone almost immediately about this. You and I talked about it quite extensively.

This is data that both of us were interested in finding. The data that we were looking for was the rate of

denials based on race. When I went to the dashboard, like everyone else, trying to find that data, it

wasn’t there. I’m going to say the data wasn’t there, because we’re not completely computer illiterates,Page – 2 – of 9

but maybe we all made mistakes, every single one of us that was looking for this data. So, I put in an

OPRA (Open Public Records Act) with the Attorney General’s office, and they ended up updating the

dashboard. According to, you know, looking at everything now here afterwards, they updated their

dashboard on April 12, 2024. I think it was April 24, 2024, when they closed out my OPRA, which they

didn’t complete my OPRA right away. They were like we need more time. So, it took them about five,

six weeks.

Evan Nappen 04:10

So, what is an OPRA? What did you do? Tell us?

John Petrolino 04:17

Okay, so an OPRA is New Jersey’s form of a FOIA, which is Freedom Of Information Act, a direct

request. An OPRA is an Open Public Records Act request. I’m basically saying to the Attorney General,

listen, I want more information that should be available to the public. Sometimes, some agencies and

some information they’re forthcoming with and some agencies not so much. So, the Attorney General’s

Office is usually pretty good at getting the data that is available, versus like New York or New Jersey

State Police. They’re pretty awful. I’m fighting with that right now.

Evan Nappen 04:58

So, you found that OPRA is a really important tool, haven’t you?

John Petrolino 05:02

Oh, it is very important. ORRA is also, interestingly enough, OPRA in New Jersey, is under attack from

one Assemblyman Joe Danielson. Go figure.

Evan Nappen 05:16

Oh, isn’t he the fellow that sponsored the Carry Killer bill? You know, the law to restrict our gun rights?

John Petrolino 05:26

He’s the guy that said that. Yes, this law was intended to only affect the law abiding. Yeah, that is the

guy.

Evan Nappen 05:34

Yeah. So, here’s a guy who’s not only against Second Amendment rights, but also, in effect First

Amendment rights, too. Trying to keep the Government acting in secret as they do their operations.

John Petrolino 05:52

Yeah, exactly. So, the irony is shocking. So, what I ended up doing is getting the information from them.

They said, oh, this data’s in the dashboard. I’m like, oh, silly me. So, I jumped on there, and I started

going down to look at the numbers that we were both interested in. I think we both wanted to find this

out, and we did, you know, go forward. I found some interesting numbers. When you start cranking

them through the sausage machine, there is two times the number of denials for Permits to Carry in the

black population versus white. And, you know, I’m going to stop people right there. Because a lot of

people say, well, you know, the blacks have more felonies, and they, you know. The comments onlinePage – 3 – of 9

are priceless. It’s like, well, why don’t you read the whole article? Because first of all, I don’t necessarily

believe that, but we’ll go forward. Right? Whatever the statistics are, is what they are. What I’m more

concerned about is when you’re also looking at, yes, there’s double the number of denials. There’s

double the number of denials for a subjective standard. And I know you can rattle this off without me

having to read.

Evan Nappen 07:09

So, here’s the thing that I want to do. Yes. What you discovered here are some very important nuggets

in explaining and shining the light on what is the true institutionalized racism that applies to the

disenfranchisement of Second Amendment rights for minorities. Okay? This is a reality. You have

demonstrated this reality with the data, and it’s deep. It goes to a number of reasons. Now, one of the

online comments that you just mentioned is, oh, well, that’s because blacks are more felons. You know,

more felony convictions than whites. Well, guess what? That is absolutely true. Do you know what the

ratio is? It’s six to one. Six blacks to one white, for having a criminal record. Now, think about that for a

moment, and say, hey, wait a minute. Why is that? Why is that? What our own Government has done is

sued companies, BMW, Dollar General, and recently Sheetz, like a Wawa, of Pennsylvania. They sell

gas. Under a theory that when they get ready to hire somebody, they run a criminal background check.

It comes up that the person is a convicted felon, and even though they’d want to hire them, they say,

no, because they’re a convicted felon. Our federal Government says that’s racist, because you’re

denying blacks at six to one or at least five to one to whites getting jobs. So, if our own federal

Government is saying it’s racist to deny based on a felony conviction, why is the prohibition of guns for

felons not just as racist and something that should be disallowed? Ah, I’d like to see the answer to that

question.

Evan Nappen 09:32

Now, what you’ve done is found that in the licensing denials, you have denials at two to one. Now, most

folks, if they have a felony conviction, are going to know I’m not even going to bother to apply. They

know they are a barred person. They know that their Second Amendment rights have been taken away

from them. So, those that do apply, that don’t have a felony prohibition, then they fall into that other

category of denial, where it’s subjective. The subjective category denial is the classic “public health,

safety, and welfare.” I call it the all-inclusive weasel clause. That’s where the chief gets to arbitrarily, or

the issuing authority gets to arbitrarily, deny the person based on whatever absurdity they wish to base

it on. It can be something that’s nowhere near an absurdity, but rather based on prejudice. You see it

being portrayed here in these statistics. This is why the gun laws across the board are incredibly racist,

true racism. But does the left embrace the Second Amendment and say, hey, we have to address the

racism of the Second Amendment? Tell me. What’s happened now that you’ve revealed this? Has the

Attorney General said we must now address why there’s this racial disparity, John?

John Petrolino 11:16

The Attorney General’s office has been very quiet. I reached out to them twice. The second time, a little

bit more forcefully. I probably will give them a little bit of time, maybe towards the end of the week, and

you know, maybe I approach them again. I basically told them that “no comment” is not going to cut it,

because this is a civil rights violation.Page – 4 – of 9

Evan Nappen 11:40

How about a rights violation investigation of the chiefs that they have records of, that are doing the

disproportionate denials. Will we actually see it?

John Petrolino 11:53

Who knows? All of the chiefs in New Jersey, just in case you didn’t know this, I’ve sent letters to all the

Chiefs of Police that have used the weasel clause to deny Permits to Carry. There were 62 chiefs. I

wasn’t able to hit all the barracks and stuff like that. I notified them asking for comment on why they’re

using a subjective standard. So, the Chiefs of Police are definitely on notice by this journalist and that

information will come out, too. What I think is really also interesting, and this isn’t something you and I

even discussed. So, get ready for the left field here. This “weasel clause” as we’re going to call it, it’s

not just any old weasel clause. This is the new and improved one, new for ’22. Governor Murphy signed

this into law right before Christmas, I believe it was. This law that our legislators voted for, and

Governor Murphy enacted, they actually enacted a provision of the law that made it extra deadly for the

ability to subvert rights. It says the people who are lacking the essential character of temperament

necessary to be entrusted with a firearm. By doing that, they’ve enacted a law that is disproportionately

being used against blacks. So, I wrote to the legislature, and I asked them if that was their legislative

attempt. We’ll find out what they have to say.

Evan Nappen 13:27

Yeah, because that’s exactly what they did. This is something that goes back in the history of gun

control in America. The earliest gun laws of New Jersey prohibited Native Americans and blacks from

having guns. So, this actually is very traditional for New Jersey to be racist and to stop blacks and other

minorities from having guns. In the bigger picture of guns throughout America, you see that (Chief)

Justice (Roger B.) Taney, in the famous decision that actually helped get us to the Civil War (Dred

Scott v. Sandford, United States Supreme Court, 1857), the decision by Justice Taney finding that a

freed black would have the right to bear arms and have guns, and we can’t have that you see. Right

after the Civil War, we had the Black Codes, the infamous Black Codes, where they wanted to stop the

freed blacks from having guns. So, they passed laws in the new South. After the Civil War, they passed

laws requiring that only the most expensive guns could be possessed, such as the Army and Navy

handguns and such. So, it was only the wealthier white officers and whites that could afford them. Poor

blacks couldn’t have cheap guns.

Evan Nappen 15:16

It references to modern day, the so-called Saturday Night Special bill, which is the same idea. When

they talk about cheap guns, they really are talking about people in lower economic classes being able

to have firearms for themselves. So, this racism runs throughout the gun laws to this day, to this day.

When they talk about “assault firearms”, they say, oh, it’s a choice of drug dealers. This is their

camouflage for saying, it’s the choice of blacks. This is what they do, and this is how they do it. Even in

the book, The Saturday Night Special by Robert Sherrill, and this was written in the early 70s, when the

“Saturday Night Special” was the flavor of the day for the anti-Second Amendment crowd, Sherrill said,

look, the ’68 Gun Control Act itself, which dealt with so-called “Saturday Night Specials” to a certain

degree, even he said it wasn’t, and this is a liberal guy, it wasn’t passed to regulate guns. It was passed

to go after blacks. He even admitted it then. This is a known thing and a known quantity. But the leftPage – 5 – of 9

conveniently ignores it, even though they claim to be proponents for minority rights. But in fact, they are

not.

John Petrolino 16:46

You brought up the very compelling thing talking about all those lawsuits that are happening. So, if

those lawsuits were going to happen, it’s going to happen through the Department of Justice. The

formation of the Department of Justice goes back to our postbellum United States. It was formed,

specifically, to try to protect the rights of the now freed slaves at the time, of our black brothers and

sisters. So, this is something that created that whole entire division of policing. I have a small little

excerpt here, actually I just dug it up. It’s from a book. It’s called Messages and Papers of the President

Ulysses S. Grant. Here’s a letter that Ulysses S. Grant wrote on April 19, 1872, to the House of

Representatives. He said that he just got information from the Attorney General, orally, and he said that

counties were under the sway of the power of combinations properly known as the Klu Klux Klans. The

objects of which were by force and terror to prevent all political action in the court and the views of the

members. He goes on, and he says, what was going on was there was deprivation. I’m going to quote

the end. “. . .to deprive colored citizens of the right to bear arms and of the right of a free ballot.” So,

back then Ulysses S. Grant was worried about blacks being patriotiated with their rights and was

sending the DOJ in there to sort this out and getting the House of Representatives involved. But like

you said, we don’t see that happening now, today.

Evan Nappen 18:24

No, well, Biden, his administration, and the Democrats claim that the biggest threat to America is white

supremacy. And you know what? Maybe it is, but you know, who the white supremacists are? Them.

Demonstrated by the gun laws. So, the biggest threat is them. They are the ones that are the white

supremacists by creating these laws that institutionalize the racism. We’re talking about the Second

Amendment, the right to keep and bear arms, which is extremely important, because that’s a person’s

ability to defend themselves and their families. And that’s what they’re stopping. That’s who they want

to keep enslaved and disarmed. And that’s what the left does. And that’s what these gun laws do. And

that’s what your article has helped to illustrate. The work that you’re doing is showing that in greater

and greater light, and it’s so important that it’s happening. So, John, tell the listeners where they can

find you and get your great works and read the great articles that you write.

John Petrolino 19:45

You can find me on my homepage, that’s kind of the clearinghouse for everything. It’s

ThePenPatriot.com And then from there, you can link up with my socials. You can find me on Facebook

as The Pen Patriot, and on Instagram it is jpetrolinoiii. Most importantly, you know, and if you can’t find

me that way, my email address is John@thepenpatriot.com. If there’s something going on, if you’ve got

a story tip or a lead or anything, I want to know about it, and I can cover it. I will cover it. So, that’s

John@thepenpatriot.com. Again, thepenpatriot.com is the website. And my work is all over the place,

Bearing Arms, etc.

Evan Nappen 20:32Page – 6 – of 9

John, you are serious. John is really so dedicated and has covered so many things. Your works appear

in all kinds of aggregate sites and other places. Just tell the audience where because I know I see you

all over the place. And I’m always happy to mention that. Go right ahead. Tell us where.

John Petrolino 20:54

Yeah, I pump out my work over at Bearing Arms, The Truth About Guns, AmmoLand, and Shooting

News Weekly. I also write for News2A.com. Those guys are great. Definitely link up with News2A.com.

They’ve got some good content. They are up and coming, about a year old. And then

Evan Nappen 21:11

I get every one of those and monitor them every day. So, stay informed. I always read your byline, man.

So, I want to thank you very much for being on the show, and I know folks are going to follow you

closely, as I do. John, thanks a lot for coming on today.

John Petrolino 21:32

Thanks. Thanks for having me, Evan. And thank you for what you do. So, well, we’ll catch up soon my

friend.

Evan Nappen 21:39

Yep, see you now, so long. Well, so that was very exciting to have John Petrolino on the show. I really

admire the great work that he does. I want to take a moment now to tell you about some exciting things

at WeShoot. You know that WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, New Jersey, a great range, great

facility. They are right there off the parkway. WeShoot is a great place to get training and firearms and

such. Speaking of this, here’s some exciting news from WeShoot. We shoot now has the Rost Martin

RM1C gun. Let me tell you about the Rost Martin. This gun is really cool. This gun is, frankly, similar in

some ways to a Glock 19, but it shoots better than the Glock 19. Amazingly it has an MSRP of only

$465. That’s right. Only $465 is their list price. Now WeShoot has these guns and their MOS, so they’re

ready for the optic. It has a ton of great features already in it. And here’s the kicker. It’s made in Dallas,

Texas. So, this is a U.S. manufactured firearm. It is incredibly reliable and shoots incredibly well. It has

a great price point. It’s really become all the rage. So, if you want to check out the new Rost Martin

RM1C, go to WeShoot. You can check it out there. They rent guns. They have training, and they are

wonderful facility. But this is super popular. This Rost Martin.

Evan Nappen 23:59

Now WeShoot also has Member Appreciation Month, which is in May, and this is the 5th anniversary of

that. So, every year at WeShoot, they dedicate the entire month of May to their members, and they

have very exclusive special deals for their members. Now, if you want to take advantage, they’re

offering right now $100 off their membership for new members. So, you can actually, during

Membership Appreciation Month, become a member of WeShoot, if you aren’t already. I don’t know

why you’re not, and you can get $100 off their membership in May. So, now’s a great opportunity to

become part of the WeShoot family and be able to get in on their great deals. Check out the new Rost

Martin pistol. I think you’re really going to love it. I love it. I have one. They’re great, and I think you’re

going to really appreciate that. So, go to WeShoot. You can find them at weshootusa.com Check out

their website and pay a visit. You’ll be glad that you did.Page – 7 – of 9

Evan Nappen 25:16

I also want to mention the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. The Association of New

Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is the umbrella organization of all the gun clubs in New Jersey that are

members of the association. Then you, as an individual member, are part of that. This is how we unify

and fight for gun rights. They are the number one fighter for gun rights in the state of New Jersey. It’s

anjrpc.org. Their Executive Director, Scott Bach, who is a dear friend of mine, and who has worked

tirelessly for gun rights in New Jersey, has been reelected to the NRA Board. And that is great because

the NRA needs Scott from Jersey representing not just the interests of gun owners, but particularly New

Jersey. Scott is a great voice for us there at the NRA Board. During these times at the NRA, now more

than ever, we need somebody there to get the ship righted, and going strong. Scott is the man. So,

congratulations to Scott for his reelection to the NRA Board and for serving as our leader of the

Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. You need to be a member of the Association. Make

sure you are. You’re going to get a great newsletter, and you’re going to get email updates. It’s

absolutely a great investment in your Second Amendment rights. You know, when you are a member,

that you are part of the solution to this fight.

Evan Nappen 27:09

Now is the moment when I also shamelessly plug my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law. It is the

Bible of New Jersey gun law. It is over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a question and answer format.

It’s your guidebook through the matrix of New Jersey’s insanity. When you get my book, scan the front

cover, and make sure you become part of my free subscriber database – 100% free. You get access

right away to the archive for any and all updates to the book, and you’re going to get email notices of

any new laws, any additions, etc. This keeps the book current so that you stay on top of the changes in

this challenging environment of New Jersey gun law. This book is used by the New Jersey State Police

Firearms Division. It’s used by law enforcement agencies. It’s used by judges, lawyers, and most

importantly by gun owners throughout New Jersey to help keep them legal and out of the clutches of

New Jersey’s insane gun laws. This way you don’t become a GOFU. So, to get my book, go to

EvanNappen.com. That’s right, my full name.com. EvanNappen.com You’ll see the book right there,

just click it and you can get your copy.

Evan Nappen 28:42

So, I’ve gotten some very interesting letters, and I want to share some of them with you. Here’s a nice

follow up from Jim. Jim says, hi Evan. I watched your podcast concerning the issue with squeezing 11

rounds into the Glock 43X and was wondering the result of the person who had the issue, especially if

Glock agreed to update the owner’s 43X mags. So, here’s the deal. Glock will update the mags, but the

problem is how do you get the mags to them to update without violating New Jersey’s law on

transporting large capacity magazines and possessing them while you’re doing it, etc.? We were

working on trying to get the Attorney General to acknowledge this so that you could at least bring it to a

dealer and be covered. For that we needed Glock to officially announce that they will take care of this

problem, that they recognize it. But Glock so far has not done so. So, even though my understanding is

that Glock will exchange the magazines, they’ve not put out anything, to my knowledge, officially

acknowledging that they sold so-called 10 round magazines that hold more than 10 rounds and subject

everybody who got them that lives in jurisdictions, not just New Jersey, where over 10 rounds arePage – 8 – of 9

prohibited, to criminal prosecution for their mistake. So, for some reason they’re not owning up to that,

officially, although they are apparently willing to exchange the magazine. But you can see the issue.

So, listen, be careful. Don’t become a victim. If you have a Glock mag that holds more than 10 rounds. I

would strongly suggest that you don’t fall into that trap. Now, thanks, Jim. If I do get word from Glock of

anything official, I will absolutely put it out on the show.

Evan Nappen 30:54

Now I have a letter here from Chris, regarding concealed carry permit, New Jersey moving to

Pennsylvania. Hello, Evan, I have a concealed carry in New Jersey and a non-resident concealed carry

in Pennsylvania. I currently live in NJ and we’re thinking about moving to PA. If we do move, do I turn in

my New Jersey permit? And what are the steps? Also on a related note, when my New Jersey two year

renewal comes up and I don’t want to renew it, are there any steps? Or do I just don’t fill out

paperwork? Thank you. Well, Chris, you do not have to turn in your New Jersey carry because unlike

the Firearms Purchaser ID Card, it’s not address specific. You don’t have that obligation on the carry

permit. If you notice, the carry permit doesn’t have your address on it. So, it’s not about that. You can

maintain it and keep it. You still are licensed in New Jersey, as well as taking care of what you need to

in Pennsylvania. So, there’s no necessity to turn in your New Jersey Permit to Carry.

Evan Nappen 32:05

However, when the renewal comes up, you can either renew or not renew. If you renew, then you

renew as a non-resident. Because now you’re going to be subject to that and the issuing authority will

be the State Police as opposed to the town that was the issuing authority where you lived in New

Jersey. So, you can either do nothing, let your New Jersey permit expire and then that’s it, you’re not

licensed in Jersey, or you can renew as a non-resident, which would be a better idea because you can

maintain your New Jersey permit, even though I’m sure once you move to Pennsylvania, you’re saying

I’ll never want to come back to New Jersey again. However, life is funny, and you may end up having to

come back to Jersey here and then, back and forth, at least to see old friends and brag that you got out

of New Jersey. So, you may want to keep your New Jersey carry permit. If that’s the case, just do your

renewal as a non-resident. Thanks for a very good question.

Evan Nappen 33:13

Now, folks, you know I get a lot of letters, and I love getting letters. I love helping my fellow gun owners

and all that. It really is what my entire life has been about. It’s my whole calling, and it’s what I do. I love

it. But every once in a while, I get a letter like this. This kind of letter just makes me go, seriously? So,

let me read you this letter from Jo. Jo says, “Regarding your video about cars in a mob”. Now, number

one, I haven’t done a video about cars in a mob for Gun Lawyer. I don’t know what this is. What is this?

Then he says, I don’t even know what he’s talking about but okay. “Dear Sir, I enjoyed your sorrow

video” . . . I swear to God, he wrote sorrow, sorrow, sorrow video. I don’t know what that means. “I

enjoyed your sorrow video on your rights being caught in your car in a mob.” Okay, this is a podcast.

So, I don’t know what video, I don’t know what a sorrow video or what it even means. Then being

caught in your car in a mob. Alright. “Very clear and concise.” Really? Okay. “However, I feel that you

unfairly and knowingly misrepresented the reason the protesters are there. They are requesting the

university to divest of funds that make the university money by supporting Israel. I am neither JewishPage – 9 – of 9

nor Palestinian, but I will never or click on your site again. You lose your integrity and reliability by this

clear and biased commentary. Here’s hoping you reconsider your delivery and messages.”

Evan Nappen 35:13

So, I don’t have any video, or any commentary whatsoever on protesters at the universities and guns

and never did any of this, that he’s thinking I did or didn’t do. But I do want to be clear about something.

When it comes to clear and unbiased testimony, commentary, I’m sorry about that whole situation. Let

me be clear here, folks. If you are supporting Hamas terrorists, Fuck You! Is that bias enough? I don’t

know. Maybe not. But there you go. As far as that issue, I’m happy to address it. As far as the rest of

his issue goes, he’s an idiot and doesn’t know what he’s talking about. So, hopefully, that handles that.

Evan Nappen 36:14

Hey, now let’s talk about the GOFU. The GOFU is the segment that’s extremely popular, where you get

to learn a very inexpensive lesson that is very expensive for somebody else. The GOFU is a Gun

Owner Fuck Up. This is what happens when individuals, unfortunately, try to use common sense when

dealing with New Jersey gun laws or any gun law for that matter. You need to make sure that you get

the right information to make the right choices. Man, I had a fellow just this week who just had a series,

a series, of GOFUs. He thought, hey, he had guns taken, and they weren’t taken with any actual

statutory authority. So, he talks to the police, and the police say oh, you need to call the prosecutor’s

office. Ahhh, aaaannnnt. The last thing you want to do, as a citizen with a gun issue, is call the

prosecutor’s office. By calling the prosecutor’s office, he triggered the prosecutor to bring a motion for

forfeiture and revocation. Whereas, if that call hadn’t been made, things could have been arranged

differently. Actions could have been taken to help ensure a return. And if that trigger needed to be

pulled, it could have been pulled at the appropriate time. Now, instead, it’s being done because of the

person initiating it upon themselves. There are other legal mechanisms that could have been done. It’s

really a shame.

Evan Nappen 38:10

The GOFU is this, folks. If you have an issue, do not reach out to the prosecutor. That is not for you to

do. You should have an attorney do that. Because you now walked into the lion’s den, and you have no

clue. You don’t understand the laws, all the tricks and traps and the agenda that the Prosecutors’

Offices have. Not all of them, but a good many of them. So, you’ve got to be really careful. If you need

something done related to firearms, you make sure you have your lawyer do it. A lawyer who knows

what they’re doing. Otherwise, it becomes a GOFU, and it’s something that could have been avoided.

This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They

protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 39:16

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by

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opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E185_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

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Episode 184- Is there really a Jersey Legal OTF? Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 184SUMMARY KEYWORDS

new jersey, firearm, law, switchblade, great, knife, carry, possession, utility knife, gun, case, transport, exemption, box cutter, state, question, subsection, amazon, blade, possessing

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:16
Hello, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen. On the last show we talked about Kade the cow that was a kind of a gun shop mascot at A&G Shooting in Fairfield, Maine. And how having that cute little calf is an attraction for young people and old alike. I put out there about if any of you had other suggestions or know of other gun shop type animals and such. Well, I’ve gotten a number of responses, but I have two here that I want to share with you before we get into the big topic of the show. Is there a Jersey legal OTF? An OTF is known as an Out The Front switchblade. Ooooooh. Is there? You may be surprised to hear what I have to tell you. I’ll give you a hint – loophole. Okay.

Evan Nappen 01:23
So, this is from Sherra, a listener of the show, who says regarding the gun shop mascot. Ready for this, folks? “Lance Corporal Chesty McBoomstick is our range cat. We even made him an Instagram account so we wouldn’t clog up our regular range account with cat pics. (https://www.instagram.com/lcplchesty) We have several customers who will come by just to say hi to him. He’s been known to calm anxious children and adults. He loves greeting the customers and isn’t afraid of the gunfire.” This is from the gun shop, I actually found it, Sandhill Shooting Sports in Lugoff, South Carolina. Of course, we have listeners all throughout the world. (sandhillshootingsports.com) Sandhill Shooting Sports has a mascot cat named Lance Corporal Chesty McBoomstick. I went over to look at their Instagram pictures, and it is one cute little kitty. I have to agree. But the really funny thing is he has one of those wraparound Velcro vests on that sometimes you’ll see on emotional support animals. But Chesty there, Lance Corporal McBroomstick, has a very interesting chest rig that he’s wearing, and it has a patch on it. Since he’s their official range cat, what the patch says, you can see this on their Instagram account, it says DON’T SHOOT ME ASSHOLE. I guess that’s pretty good. Because if you’re a range cat, that’s a good idea to say that. I guess that’s training just like you write COW on a cow so that a hunter doesn’t shoot it as a deer. Right, that old gag. So, there you go. Well, thank you so much for sharing that with us. If you’re ever in that area they’re in, Lugoff, South Carolina, stop by and say hello to Chesty. That’s pretty cool.

Evan Nappen 03:55
I got another letter here, and this one is from Andrew. Andrew says regarding gun store animals. I think a talking parrot would be ideal for a gun store. He can be trained to say things like F Joe Biden or the ATF sucks or some other pro-gun slogan. I like that. I think we have a lot of great things we could train

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a parrot to say that would be very appropriate at a gun store. He also has a question. So, he’s going to sneak in a question, but that’s okay. Andrew, I love answering questions. Andrew lives in a condo complex. Would they be considered private property for the purpose of carrying a firearm without a permit or are condominiums considered a public area? Thanks. Well, the problem we find with condominiums is you have this thing called “common areas”. If it’s a common area, then your carry in a common area, if it’s open to the public and as long as you have a carry permit, then you’re okay. But you have got to be careful. If you don’t have a carry permit, then you can’t carry under exemption for your home in a common area because common areas are not necessarily your home. They’re common areas. But if you have a carry permit and if the common area is open to the public, then that would get you the ability there to do that. So, it can get complicated depending on the specific facts of the given condo or even apartment complex etc.

Evan Nappen 05:35
Anyway, what I want to tell you about is a very, very interesting product that I’ve discovered. They’re right on Amazon, you know the modern day equivalent of what Sears Roebuck was in the old days. On Amazon, they sell what is called Caressolove Aviation Aluminum utility knife. This apparently is the best one of the ones that I’ve tested and found at the best price. It’s called the Caressolove Aviation Aluminum utility knife EDC, which stands for Every Day Carry, auto box cutters, retractable, heavy duty cardboard cutter, replaceable blade pocketknife with clip with five spare blades. What this is is an OTF, an out the front, box cutter. This is a great idea because this box cutter OTF. Here listen close, folks, I’ll run it for you. There you go, in and out. That box cutter OTF can very quickly exchange blades. It’s about half the size in length of like your standard Stanley box cutter that genre of box cutters. It uses those box cutter blades. You know those trapezoidal, I guess you’d call them. What’s great is that instead of using your other knife, utility knife etc. or a knife that you carry, maybe your EDC carry knife, by having this relatively handy and small box cutter knife, you can use it for cutting open boxes and gooey tape and slicing through cardboard which really dulls a blade. I mean cutting a lot of cardboard. Do you know you can actually sharpen your knife on cardboard? I don’t want to divert too much from this, but literally if you ever need to give your knife that has an edge but it’s getting a little dull. You can actually use cardboard as a sharpening stone to the degree of restoring the finer edge to a knife. Believe it or not. You can do that with cardboard. But anyway, cardboard will dull a knife blade very quickly. And getting all that goo from tape or anything else you may use a utility knife, a box cutter knife, for, this is just the handiest thing. You have two blade sides. Of course, you can switch it when the other one gets dull real fast. They’re very cheap, too. On Amazon, you can buy 90 replacement blades for 11 bucks. You know that should keep you in business for a good long time. 90 blades for $11. The sale price on, it’s not a sale sale, but the price on Amazon is 31.99. So, for $32, and if you’re a prime member, it’s free shipping and the shipping is like in a day, you can get yourself one of these. And they’re just great. I’ve been using it a lot. I’ve been using this knife more than any knife I’ve ever carried because it is just great for all the gross yucky tasks that you otherwise would have to use your other knife for and have to clean it and get all the sticky stuff off and keep that blade sharp. So, here you can have this.

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Evan Nappen 09:21
Now what’s really interesting is where does this OTF box cutter, utility knife, fit in under the law particularly how does it work under New Jersey law? Is it legal to have this under Jersey law? Well, let’s take a detailed look at that question, folks. We’re going to take a detailed look. So, let’s start with the law. Under N.J.S. 2C:39-5.d., that’s New Jersey’s Other Weapons prohibition. We’ve talked about this before on the show, but it can’t hurt to review it again. What it says is: “Other weapons. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any other weapon under circumstances not manifestly appropriate for such lawful uses as it may have is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.” We’ve discussed how the courts under the Kelly decision and Montalvo, having said that, you cannot preemptively arm yourself for self-defense. That’s not considered a manifestly appropriate use, such lawful use. So, even though you’d think self-defense would be, but it’s not. At least it wasn’t until Montalvo, which then allows you to do that in your home but not outside your home. Then, of course, with Bruen it looks like that Montalvo case will have to be modified yet again, to allow self-defense as a manifestly appropriate for such lawful use as it may have outside the home. But that case hasn’t come about yet.

Evan Nappen 10:53
So, when you look at that, what’s nice about this, because this would be one of the laws you could be charged under, one of two for your possession, would be this 2C:39-5.d. law. What’s nice is you’re not carrying this for self-defense. You’re carrying it to open boxes, to open and cut gooey cape, and other things. To use it as a utilitarian knife, which is exactly what it’s sold as, which is exactly what a box cutter is. Therefore, your reason to have it is virtually self-explanatory. It virtually is, if you have it for that reason. And, of course, you would never carry such a thing for self-defense. I know that. You’re carrying it for those uses, and then you have an exemption, arguably built into the statute.

Evan Nappen 11:45
But, keep in mind, there’s even another exemption to that statute, which are the possession exemptions found under N.J.S. 2C:39-6.e. By the way, if you say how am I going to remember these laws, you don’t have to remember these laws. You can go right to the Gun Lawyer podcast website. We have the transcript of every show, and the laws will be right there. You can see what I’m saying, and you can look at them right there. Under N.J.S. 2C:39-6.e., the exemption says: “Nothing in subsections b., c., and d. of N.J.S. 2C:39-5 . . . ” Now we were talking about subsection d., which is Other weapons. Subsection b. is handguns and c. is rifles and shotguns. These are the same traditional exemptions we’ve always relied upon for possession of firearms and other weapons that fall under the 39-5d. prohibition. This exemption applies. (Nothing in subsections b., c., and d. of N.J.S. 2C:39-5) “shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about the person’s place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by the person, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section . . .”

Evan Nappen 13:06
So, if you’re going to transport a gun, you have to do it pursuant to subsection g., which is cased and unloaded. It’s always been how we’ve done it in Jersey, but that exemption covers d., so it covers other weapons. So, even just having it in your home is legal for exemption for possession your home. But now, with a box cutter utility, you have that manifestly appropriate use, as long as that’s the reason you’re carrying it. Now, of course, New Jersey could then say, aha, but this box cutter is what New

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Jersey calls a switchblade. New Jersey would arguably attempt to define this as a switchblade by claiming that this knife opens automatically. It opens automatically, and it has that button or other device in the handle of the knife.

Evan Nappen 14:02
Let’s take a close look at exactly how “switchblade” is defined in New Jersey law. Under section p. of N.J.S. 2C:39-1, it says: “Switchblade knife” means any knife or similar device which has a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife.” So, New Jersey would say, hey, you push that button on the side of the knife and out that knife blade comes. If you pull it back, it goes back. Therefore, it’s a switchblade . What does the law say under N.J.S., 2C:39-9, subsection d. concerning weapons? It says: any person who, I’m sorry, don’t go to nine. Let’s stick with 39-3 for a minute. I’ll get to nine in a minute.

Evan Nappen 14:56
Under N.J.S. 2C:39-3.e., it says, “Certain weapons. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any gravity knife, switchblade knife, dagger, dirk, stiletto, billy, blackjack, metal knuckle, sand club, slingshot, cestus or other leather band studded with metal filings or razor blades imbedded in wood . . .” Man, this is just loaded with great ideas this statute. I gotta say. But anyway, “. . . ballistic knife, without any explainable lawful purpose, is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.” Aha! What is your explainable lawful purpose under 39-3? Your explainable lawful purpose is exactly what this is, a box cutter utility knife made and sold by Amazon for that very purpose. That’s why you have it. So, when it comes to switchblade possession under Jersey law, the prohibition under 39-3 that specifically names “switchblade” has a built-in exemption if you have any explainable lawful purpose. The explainable lawful purpose is precisely what this is, a box cutter utility knife. Therefore, under both N.J.S. 2:39-5.d. where there is a manifestly appropriate for such lawful use as it may have, and N.J.S. 2C:39-3.e. where the explainable lawful purpose, you have both here in possessing a box cutter utility knife for the purpose of box cutting and utility. So, there you go.

Evan Nappen 16:49
Now Jersey also has N.J.S. 2C:39-9.d., and what this says is interesting. It says: “Weapons. Any person who manufactures, causes to be manufactured, transports, ships, sells or disposes of any weapon, including gravity knives, switchblade knives, ballistic knives, daggers, dirks, stilettos, billies, blackjacks, metal knuckles, sandclubs, slingshots, cesti or similar leather bands studded with metal filings, or, except as otherwise provided in subsection i. of this section, in the case of firearms if he is not licensed or registered to do so (as provided in chapter 58 of Title 2C of the New Jersey Statues,) is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.” So, New Jersey is prohibiting the transport, shipping, and sale of switchblades. They have that as just a standalone, even though your possession is legal. But you’re not selling it, you’re not manufacturing it, and you’re not disposing of it. So, this doesn’t apply to the individual who is simply possessing it. Now, transport is different from carry. I would beware, though, of carrying it in your car, etc. That’s where they might say, hey, you’re transporting, and they could try to bust you over the transport ability under d. So, you want to be careful about that. But your possession plainly has the lawfulness, as we’ve discussed, if you’re possessing it accordingly. This raises a very interesting thing for New Jersey, this OTF that is a box cutter utility knife, and it is just amazingly handy.

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Evan Nappen 18:37
Now, it’s interesting here. If we take it even one more level, we can look at the Federal Switchblade Act. If you want to see a great resource on that, go to KnifeRights.org. (https://kniferights.org/resources/federal-switchblade-act/) I’ve also been counsel to Knife Rights, a great organization defending our knife rights. They currently have a Second Amendment challenge to the Federal Switchblade Act. But if you look at the Federal Switchblade Act, that’s where it even gets more interesting in a way. The Federal Switchblade Act does prohibit switchblades, but it doesn’t prohibit individual possession in states. The Federal Switchblade Act prohibits switchblades in terms of interstate commerce. A switchblade is defined as any knife having a blade which opens automatically. This is under federal law now. (U.S. Code Title 15, Commerce and Trade, Chapter 29-Manufacture, Transportation, or Distribution of Switchblade Knives, SS 1241. Definitions) The Federal Switchblade Act is currently being challenged by Knife Right. So, please support them in their legal challenge to knock this out as a Second Amendment violation.

Evan Nappen 19:57
Under the federal definition, “the term ‘switchblade knife’ means any knife having a blade which opens automatically – (1) by hand pressure applied to a button or other device in the handle of the knife or (2) by operation of inertia, gravity, or both.” So, it seems to, arguably, possibly fit that definition. Then it says under SS 1242. (Introduction, manufacture for introduction, transportation or distribution in interstate commerce; penalty) “Whoever knowingly introduces, or manufactures for introduction, into interstate commerce, or transports or distributes in interstate commerce, any switchblade knife . . . ” So, there is a federal ban on essentially introducing into commerce, a switchblade knife. The law only prohibits introducing, manufacturing, transporting or distributing switchblades if doing so is part of a business transaction and that transaction crosses over state or territorial lines. The law does not affect, of course, selling in the same state and has no effect on carry or possession alone, unless you fall into one of these specific prohibitor sections, which involve territories of the U.S. and maritime jurisdictions, etc. But in the 50 states, possession in the state is regulated still by the states.

Evan Nappen 21:20
But this other aspect of the federal law raises an interesting question. How is Amazon selling these if they fall under this? I don’t know the answer to that. I’m assuming Amazon has lots of highly paid lawyers that have looked at this and explained somehow how Amazon is able to do this. But currently, that’s where they are. And it’s not on you, the buyer. It is, of course, on the seller here when it comes to this stuff. By the way, this is pretty much routinely not enforced when it comes to this. Now I’m not saying that you should engage in this conduct. But it’s just that I have noticed when it comes down to the Federal Switchblade Act, even Knife Rights notes, that essentially there are switchblade sales taking place, and a lot of major companies sell them online. There are weird laws federally that go beyond this in terms of who you can ship to and such, being bona fide dealers and how the distribution network is laid out. Anyway, it’s just interesting. So, I wanted to point out that we have this federal law out there, but, hey, Amazon is selling them online, and possession is legal in Jersey, if you fall within the exemptions that I’ve discussed. I find that very interesting, and in fact, somewhat of a loophole for a knife that is extremely useful and utilitarian. I thought that you, the listener, would find it to be just as interesting.

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Evan Nappen 22:57
Now, here’s a little news update. SCOTUS, which is, of course, the Supreme Court of the United States, has scheduled ‘assault weapon’ ban cases for conference on May 16. This is exciting because when the court gathers for a conference, it means they may take the case. Now, this happens to be from Cam Edwards’ article in Bearing Arms. (https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2024/05/01/scotus- schedules-assault-weapon-ban-cases-for-may-16th-conference-n1224732) He has a great aggregate website, and I highly recommend checking it out. Cam Edwards. He brought this to my attention here in a great article because I am a big fan of Cam.

Evan Nappen 23:37
Cam points out that Bianchi versus Brown, which is a challenge to Maryland’s ban on assault weapon, is scheduled for conference. This means that the Court may take it up, and if they do, then we’ll finally get a Second Amendment decision out of the United States Supreme Court. This could have a dramatic effect in killing the assault firearm and weapon bans throughout the United States that have destroyed individuals by turning law-abiding citizens who possessed modern sporting rifles into criminals and felons and imprisoning them. In New Jersey, possession of such a firearm is insanely serious. It carries up to 10 years in State Prison and a minimum mandatory three and a half years. And, of course, you get subjected to the Gun Owner Gulag, as we’ve discussed on other shows.

Evan Nappen 24:38
Of course, defending us is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are in federal court, as we speak, challenging New Jersey’s assault firearm law. It so happens that the Maryland case is a little bit ahead of New Jersey. But if they accept the Maryland case, it will absolutely impact the litigation being brought by our state Association and may in fact kill the Jersey law as the Association fights its way through as well. This is extremely exciting. Let’s hope that the Court takes the case, especially with the makeup of the Court as we have it now, and finally, issues that deathblow to the ban on the political term “assault firearm”. The political concoction, the political strategy of the anti-gunners to isolate guns that have been around for over 100 years, semi- automatic, modern sporting firearms, etc. It is a joke, and it’s ridiculous. Yet it is harmed so many law-abiding citizens who become victims of these gun laws. So, let’s hope the Supreme Court takes the case, and I’m cautiously optimistic that they will. This is why it’s so important for you to belong to our Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Make sure you do. Go to anjrpc.org to join. You’ll get their newsletter, and you’ll be sent the news alerts. You’ll be updated on the cases, and you’ll know that you are part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 26:24
Also, let me mention our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor pistol range in Lakewood, New Jersey. They are a wonderful facility and a great resource. It’s where I shoot. That’s where my family shoots and that’s where you can shoot. They’re great. They’ll treat you like family. They have wonderful training programs. You can get your CCARE certification to get your carry permit. They’ll set you up with great guns, everything you need to be a law-abiding responsible gun owner. Learn how to shoot fantastically. Because what good is it if you can hit your target? And it’s so much fun as well. You want to check out WeShoot located right there in Lakewood. It’s so easy to get to, right off the Parkway. So convenient. They are really one of the top ranges in New Jersey. I love WeShoot, and I know you will too. Check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com They have a great website with beautiful photography,

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and they really are just such professionals. Check out their wonderful programs and great events they are running at weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 27:37
Let me also shamelessly plug my book, New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It is the 25th Anniversary Edition. It is the book that every gun owner needs in New Jersey. I’m not kidding. It’s not an exaggeration, folks. This is your guidebook. This is your user guide. This is what’s going to help you not become a victim of New Jersey gun laws and to understand this crazy matrix that we’re trying to stay law-abiding in. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics in a question and answer format, easy to understand. Scan that QR code on the front and make sure you do. You’ll get into our free subscriber database, 100% free, and you’ll get updates. You’ll be able to access the archives for past updates, and you’ll get email notifications from me if anything new happens that affects our gun rights. So, if you want to get a copy of the big orange book, go to EvanNappen.com. EvanNappen.com.

Evan Nappen 28:40
Hey, I have some more great letters here, and this one’s from Ronald. Ronald says, regarding turning in digital FID (Voluntary Admission Disqualification). First off, I want to thank you for all you do for the 2A community. Having your podcast as a resource has been extremely helpful to all of us gun owners in New Jersey to ensure we don’t get trapped in all of our state’s unconstitutional laws. Also, I love your book, and I’ve given it as a gift to many friends because I know if I lend out my copy, I will likely never get it back. You are so right, Ron. Thank you for all those great compliments. I really appreciate it. My question today is in regard to the provisions in Murphy’s Carry killer law from December 2022 that retroactively invalidated tens of thousands of FIDs for persons with voluntary admissions who had previously submitted a doctor’s letter to get approved. Yep, it sure did. As part of the law, it was instructed that all FIDs should be turned over within five days. Yeah, that is the law. What about residents who received the new digital FID card (how the state started issuing them during the pandemic)? Since it’s just a digital file, can I get in trouble for not turning it in since there was no physical item to turn in? In addition, my understanding was that any guns I had purchased before this law went into effect could still be kept and used as normal. Is that the case?

Evan Nappen 30:04
Okay, so the first question, how do you turn it in? Well, you can give notice to your local police. Send them a letter or send them an email. Just document that you are voluntarily surrendering your Firearms ID Card. Now, as far as the difference between being legal for the licensing and legal for possession, that is absolutely the case in Jersey. It may seem counterintuitive, but it’s true. If you are disqualified to have a license, it does not necessarily mean that you are disqualified from having possession of a gun. When Murphy changed the law in December 2022, they changed the law so that if you’ve had a voluntary or involuntary commitment, you need to have a mental health expungement to get a license. However, they didn’t change the old law regarding the proof that you’re safe for firearms when it comes to individuals who are possessing guns. So, the person not to possess criminal statute was not changed to mandate expungement. Whereas the licensing standard was. So, if you have your proof that you’re safe for handling firearms, then you are still exempted from the possession statute. You’re not barred from possession. It’s just the license that has become disqualified for you. And that license allows you to purchase new firearms, and of course, transport broader than the exemptions. But the

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exemption is still applied You can go to the target range. You can have it in your home under the very exemptions we’ve talked about many times on the show. So, that is the distinction. It’s important to recognize that distinction. So, thanks for the great question, Ron.

Evan Nappen 31:52
Here’s another question. This one says, Hi, Evan, I love the show and the Gun Law book. I have a follow up question to a question you answered last week regarding carrying in your car. If I’m legally carrying in my car and I want to enter a prohibited place if I remove the magazine and make sure the chamber is empty, place the gun in his safe tethered to a seat frame in the car and cover the safe with a carpet or drop cloth, is that enough? Well, sure. You removed the mag, the gun is unloaded, and you’ve locked it in a gun safe. So, it’s locked in that safe. That’s great. Do I need to lock the safe in the trunk? No, you don’t need to lock the safe in the trunk. You just need to secure it in your vehicle. It does not need to be in the trunk. Now if you want to put it in the trunk locked, you can do that. But if you have it tethered with one of those cables the way most of them do, cabled to the seat, I suggest sliding it under your seat or covering it. But it’s actually very secure in that because that’s what it’s made to do. It’s made to transport guns securely. That’s why it’s cabled to the seat. That’s why that device is designed that way, and you’re meeting the statutory requirements by having the gun unloaded and secured in the proper manner.

Evan Nappen 33:02
Then Tom goes further. If the prohibited place is a restaurant where I consume an adult beverage with dinner, what do I have to do to be legal? I’m aware I cannot carry after having a drink. And that is absolutely true. You cannot consume alcohol. And you cannot be under the influence of alcohol. So, you cannot carry not only after having a drink, but you cannot carry if you’re drinking. So, if you’re going to go to that restaurant and you intend to drink, do not carry your gun. Secure it in the way we just talked about. Then Tom asks, Is it enough to lock the safe, too? Is it enough to lock the safe in the trunk? Do I need to take all the rounds out of the magazine? Can they be in the safe with the unloaded gun? I’d appreciate some guidance.

Evan Nappen 33:46
So, here’s the deal. If you’re consuming alcohol or about to consume alcohol and you were carrying and you pull into that restaurant, now you secure your gun. The law prohibits you from carrying your loaded handgun on your person with a permit. You cannot carry it if you have consumed alcohol or are under the influence of alcohol. But if you have it unloaded and cased and all, you can transport it. The prohibition is specifically on carry, not on transportation, if you’re properly transporting it from that sensitive place, now you’re going home etc. That is what covers you. You do not want to be in violation of carrying your firearm while consuming alcohol or cannabis or any other type of substance like that. Or being under the influence of any substance like that. So, that is the answer, and thank you for the great question.

Evan Nappen 34:54
Now I have what is one of the most popular segments of the show, which is the GOFU, the Gun Owner Fuck Up. We talk about GOFUs because GOFUs are an expensive lesson that you can learn very cheaply. As a matter of fact, you learn it for free by listening to Gun Lawyer. Now, this one is also a

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question, but the question actually raises what a potential GOFU is. Fortunately, the person who wrote this does not appear to have committed the GOFU yet. And I hope that’s the case. Let me explain from his letter what it is. Hi, Evan, I’m a big fan of your podcast and bought your book on New Jersey Gun Law. I recently have a workplace injury and am struggling with anxiety and stress about keeping the job. At employee health, they recommend I call employee assistant program where I could get support with my stress and anxiety about my situation. I just want to know that if I take their advice or am prescribed anything, are my gun rights at risk?

Evan Nappen 35:55
The answer, unfortunately, is yes, they are. Now look, I cannot tell you not to get help if you need help with stress and anxiety. If you need help medically, then you have to decide whether you’re going to do that or not. If it’s best for your health to do it, then you need to do what you need to do. But strictly talking about the legal aspect of it and its impact on guns, if you are treated or observed by a doctor or psychiatrist, then you will have to answer “yes” to Question 26 on every New Jersey gun application (a New Jersey Firearm Purchaser ID Card Application or New Jersey Permit to Purchase a Handgun). Then you will have to submit a proof, a doctor’s report, that you’re safe for handling firearms. Now you’ve opened up that entire can of worms, my friend, and it requires your getting that doctor’s letter or certificate. Many doctors are afraid to say somebody is good for guns, even though they know damn well they are, but they don’t want the liability. So, now you may have trouble getting a doctor. Plus, you’re going to have to pay the doctor. And all that’s going to kick in.

Evan Nappen 36:57
So, our idiotic stupid gun law system actually creates a discouragement for people getting help. Because if you get the help, then you screw around with your Second Amendment rights. It becomes a GOFU for many people, many people. I get cases all the time with mental health as the issue because it triggers this. Then if you don’t write “yes” on the form or you think it doesn’t count, then you’re charged criminally with falsification for not revealing it. You’re facing five years in State Prison. So, as you can see, this can escalate badly. I’d be very careful as to who I speak with. If this medical person you’re speaking to is simply a therapist, if they’re not a doctor or psychiatrist, you need to see what their credentials are before you even speak to them to see if they trigger Question 26 as it’s written. That’s a fact question you have to answer for yourself. But if it does, then you’re going to have a new answer, and you’re going to have to deal with it. It’s going to cost you money, and it may jeopardize your gun rights. It’s stupid, and it needs to change.

Evan Nappen 38:08
New Jersey is amazingly intrusive here, more intrusive than any other state. Federal law only asks whether you’ve had an involuntary commitment. They don’t even ask about voluntary commitments. And New Jersey doesn’t stop at voluntary commitments. They ask whether you have been treated or observed by any doctor, psychiatrist, for any medical or psychological condition. It is insanity in Jersey, but at least you know how this works. So, thank you for the great question. Thank you for presenting a potential GOFU that I hope doesn’t become one for you. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

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Speaker 3 38:51
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E184_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 155-Guns You Need When Terrorist AttackAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 155SUMMARY KEYWORDS

firearm, shotgun, trigger, gun, handgun, new jersey, rifle, rounds, guns, semi, qualify, carry, gun rights, america, buckshot, safety, round mags, soft targets, shoot, modification

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00

Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. The number one gun rights podcast in the world as rated by Feedspot, who rates such things, particularly under their rating of the top 20 Gun Rights podcast. Hey, you know, there’s been a lot of interesting things in the news, and I’m sure you’ve been following what’s going on in the Middle East. But, of course, what goes on in the Middle East isn’t really just contained to the Middle East. So, what I want to talk about today is specifically about the guns you need for when the terrorists attack America. It seems like it’s just a matter of time before they expand their operations. And if you think that that’s something that can’t happen, well think of this.

Evan Nappen 01:22

In Israel, the terrorists had to actually bust through walls and high security and had to come in by air and gliders, by sea and my motorcycle, and by tunnels and all that. You don’t need to worry about that in America, man. The border is about as open as it gets, and millions have already come in. And no one had to blow any holes in walls, or fly in paragliders, or come in scuba gear or anything like that. Just come on in. And I’m sure they did. Considering how many millions have come into the country and how the Government really doesn’t have any idea and how it’s essentially an open border policy. So, to think that such folks are not here and are not planning to do something would seem pretty naive to me.

Evan Nappen 02:21

You may say, well, how could you even think that such a thing could even get planned in America? How could it even take place in America? Well, look, did you watch the BLM riots? How amazingly they went off – burning cities, destroying public buildings, killing, robbing, maiming, looting, and all that. Then, you know how pallets of bricks would magically appear at the places where these riots would be. I mean, how was that coordinated? And that was just riotous protesters. Are you telling me you can’t coordinate attacks in America? Of course, you can. Just think about it. We have so many soft targets in America, so many soft targets. It’s not even a challenge.

Evan Nappen 03:15

And, you know, the anti-gunners make even more soft targets available. Just take Murphy’s “25 Sensitive Places”. There are perfect targets for every terrorist. How about schools? Gun free school zones, that’s a federal law, no less state laws. No guns in school. They don’t even want to have armed individuals protecting schools. Talk about soft targets. Could you imagine a mass attack by terrorists on Page – 2 – of 9

schools? Just slaughtering and killing. Look, they’re beheading babies in the Middle East. I mean, you know, shooting up schools and killing kids? That’s no problem. You say, oh, no, it’s still not going to happen. You don’t think so? Well, if you don’t think it’s going to happen, don’t worry about it, man. Why be prepared at all? Not a question.

Evan Nappen 04:05

But if you think that, hey, we might be vulnerable, that you personally maybe should be concerned about your security, that you’ve been watching this and saying, man, what would you have done if you were there? Because there could be here. Do you think we don’t have enough radical wack nuts in America that want us dead? So, let’s just say you want to be safe, rather than sorry. And in fact, you want to be prepared and in the worst case, so what? You’re ready, and you never had to use it. And guess what? That’s lucky. That’s great. Then we are sure fortunate that all you had to do was be ready, but you never needed it. Wouldn’t that be a wonderful thing? I’d love that. That’s what I’d rather see, personally. But I’ll tell you what I don’t want to see? Needing it and not being ready. That’s about the worst thing possible. What’s worse than having a gun and not needing it? The only thing worse than that is needing a gun and not having it.

Evan Nappen 05:14

So, what does it take to have guns? What should you have if you’re going to have guns? What is a decent, basic defense reserve of firearms that an individual should have? Let’s talk about that. Because let me tell you about myself. Even though I’m a gun attorney. I’m a lawyer. Sure, I’ve studied and dedicated my whole life to the Second Amendment and to my calling for defending law-abiding gun owners in defense of our Constitution and our constitutional rights. Even though I’m all about that. I’m also a Certified NRA Instructor in personal defense, home defense, both inside and outside the home. So, I have a little bit of knowledge about that. And look, I don’t claim to be the top expert, that’s for sure. But I know enough to share with you the basics that you should consider and things you should think about. So, what guns should you have? What guns should you have so that you can be ready? Basically, there are three types of guns that every person should have, and they should be proficient and know how to use them. The three guns are a rifle, a shotgun, and a handgun. Those are the three types of guns, very simple. If you at least have those three types of guns, then you are equipped to handle whatever scenario you might need to address.

Evan Nappen 06:56

Let’s start with a rifle. So, a rifle is, of course, known as a long arm. The legal definition of a rifle essentially means the firearm has a rifled barrel. It has a barrel length over 16 inches, and the overall length over 26 inches. With such a firearm, you’re able to reach out to greater distances with the projectile. So, the rifle gives you the advantage of shooting further with accuracy. There are many, many rifles out there. Now there are rifles that are rimfire, like .22s, that are the most common of all rimfires. Then there are centerfire rifles, and the centerfire is a more powerful round. Centerfire rounds are often used for hunting bigger games, such as deer, bears, or moose. Then there are the military calibers that are centerfire and are very popular, such as .556 and .762 by 39. Those are centerfire rifle calibers and cartridges. Page – 3 – of 9

Evan Nappen 08:17

So, what you should do is find a rifle that you shoot well. Most likely a centerfire rifle that’s going to give you more power, more reach, and more stopping power. The ability to shoot further is the purpose of the rifle. Then you look at rifles that you like. You could have different types of actions on rifles. You can have a bolt action, pump action, even a lever action, but, of course, the most popular is a semi- automatic. There are semi-automatic rifles that use centerfire cartridges, specifically and most popular would be the AR-15 platform. The most popular rifle in America is the AR-15 type. Now the AR-15 type has just uncountable variations. There are so many makers, so many modifications, so many things you can have on an AR. But when you’re in New Jersey, which has restricted our rights and even though we’re challenging the so-called assault firearm ban, really you know assault firearms just a pejorative word that the anti-gunners have made up to scare folks. You know, assault firearm. No, it’s a modern sporting rifle is what it is. They don’t go fully automatic. They fire semi-automatic. The mechanism that’s been around for well over 100 years. Semi-automatic does let you put repeated rounds out there in a semi-automatic fashion.

Evan Nappen 09:58

The AR-15 platform does so efficiently, and they’ve got it perfected after all these years. So, an AR-15 is a great choice for a gun to have as a rifle, but not the only choice. You may have other preferences. This is not by any means to say that any other rifle is better or worse. But at least if you have a Jersey compliant AR, then you have a semi-automatic rifle, the most popular rifle in America. You can have it where it does take a detachable magazine. Now in New Jersey, you are restricted to a magazine capacity of 10 rounds. So, you cannot have magazines over 10 rounds. However, you can have as many 10 round magazines as you want. So, if you want to have 100 ten round mags loaded with 10 rounds, no problem. And it’s pretty easy to switch mags on an AR. If you want to be legal and you want to stay legal, you don’t want to put yourself in jeopardy of being prosecuted in New Jersey by the anti-gun regime politics and bias. So, play by the rules, but play it smart. Have as many 10 round mags as you want. You have a Jersey compliant AR. You now have an accurate, reliable semi-automatic rifle, and it will serve you well should you need it.

Evan Nappen 11:23

The next long arm to consider is a shotgun. Now a shotgun has a smooth barrel, and a shotgun does not have the same capability, ballistically, for distance. The rounds that come out of a shotgun do not travel anywhere near as far as what is fired out of a rifle. But when it comes to a shotgun, you’re not looking to do that. Now it’s true you can shoot a single projectile out of a shotgun and that’s called a slug. Slugs are pretty powerful. They’re heavy pieces of lead, and their effective range is limited. Roughly speaking, you’re not going to ever shoot a slug really over 50 yards for accuracy. Although you can shoot at 100 yards. I get it. I know you guys do, but we’re just starting with the general idea. Slugs are not what we’re talking about when it comes to your shotgun since we’re not talking about it being legal or not for hunting, we’re talking about self-defense.

Evan Nappen 12:29

Let’s instead look at the shotgun’s more classic role, and that is firing multiple projectiles at close range with each pull of the trigger. So, if you have buckshot, not birdshot, birdshot is too fine. Birdshot is very fine pellets that are used to shoot well, birds. We’re not talking about shooting birds here. We’re talking Page – 4 – of 9

about shooting mammals or people. And in that regard, you want to stick with buckshot, which are larger balls of lead. Depending on what size buckshot you get, they’re roughly in the 30 caliber to 33 caliber, etc. and that’s the size of the ball. Depending on the load that’s in your shotgun, probably most preferably just a 12-gauge shotgun, whether it’s a two- and three-quarter inch shell or a three-inch Magnum shell, it’s going to hold a number of buckshot. It could hold anywhere from nine balls of buckshot to maybe even 10 or 12. It depends on the load. It depends on the shell, and it depends on the size. But basically, you’re putting out a load of lead balls in one shot that has a distance where you do not want to go over a maximum of 50 yards. Even that’s pushing it. Probably more around 30 or 20 or even closer, but up close that load of multiple balls is devastating. It basically is like your personal handheld claymore mine, when you look at it in that manner. So, your shotgun loaded with buckshot is very effective in close range for some of the strongest stopping power that you might need in that situation. The buckshot particularly loaded shotgun is excellent in a CQB, Close Quarter Combat, situation. It has tremendous stopping power and is extremely effective. Even in the Old West, we think of the six guns, but more guys were put in the ground with shotguns than any other weapon because they’re devastatingly effective. So, you want to have a shotgun in your personal armament.

Evan Nappen 15:16

Now you’re covered with a long arm of a rifle, a long arm of a shotgun. There are many excellent shotguns out there, but we’re going to stick with a basic, pump action. Under the law in Jersey, the only assault firearm shotguns are semi-automatic or those with a revolving drum such as a Street Sweeper Striker-12. Stay away from those. But if you have a pump-action shotgun, you can have anything you want on your pump-action shotgun. There’s no feature law that goes at a pump shotgun where there is for a semi-automatic shotgun. And if you want a semi-automatic shotgun, well then you can’t have a mag over six rounds. It can’t have a folding stock. It can’t have a pistol grip. Any one of those features is banned as an assault firearm on a semi-auto shotgun. However, if you have a pump-action shotgun, you can have anything you want. You can have a 10 round or nine round tube or more on that shotgun. You can have a heat shield. You can have a bayonet lug, like the Mossberg 590, a great shotgun, with a bayonet lug, nine shot, super tough. The military uses it, 590A1s. They’re out there. They are super reliable. You can have a folding stock. You can have a pistol grip. You can have any whistle or bell you want on a pump shotgun, and it’s not an assault fireman. It’s very effective. Just hearing that ratchet sound of the pump going off usually sends the right message to anybody thinking about harming you. But if it’s going to come down to popping terrorists, you’re going to need that shotgun, and they’re not going to be running away from the sound. They’re just going to be hearing the other sound that it makes when you pull the trigger. And that’s what it’s going to take. So, your shotgun is very important. Many models including Remington 870s. There’s plenty of great shotguns at a reasonable price. Check out what works best for you and put that in your armament.

Evan Nappen 17:24

Then you come down to your handgun. With your handgun, there are many, many choices, of course. Revolvers, semi-autos, we can talk all day about handguns, but you better have at least one decent semi-automatic handgun. If you’re a fan of 1911s, or if you’re a fan of Glocks, if you’re a fan of Sigs, if you’re a fan of Smith, whatever, have that semi-automatic handgun, and make sure you have 10 round magazines. It does not hold more than 10 rounds. You can have as many 10 round mags as you want. The handgun is what you keep on your person handy. Think of it as your first aid kit, your immediate go Page – 5 – of 9

to, that you can use to help you fight to get to your shotgun or your rifle. That handgun is there with you at all times to defend yourself. And that’s why you get your carry license in New Jersey. Now you can get that carry permit, and you can have that handgun with you. You can have your long arms ready to go in your home, and you can have your handgun with you outside your home and inside your home. You want to practice. You want to be ready, but you need to have that handgun. You need to be proficient, and you need the handgun that works for you.

Evan Nappen 18:37

Folks, think about being prepared. I want all my listeners prepared. I hope this never happens, but I think we’d be foolish to think that it won’t. So, at least make sure you have the basics. Make sure you stay Jersey legal. We’re finally at a point in New Jersey where every law-abiding citizen can actually have a firearm license, a Firearm Purchaser ID Card, get your Pistol Purchase Permit and actually get a Carry Permit. You can get a carry permit because “justifiable need” has been eliminated. The training requirement is now completely able to be done by any reasonably competent person. You simply apply online, and the process has been streamlined to the point where judges are no longer involved, thank God. It’s issued by the same authority that issued your Firearms ID Card and issued your Pistol Purchase Permit.

Evan Nappen 19:44

As a matter of fact, the same qualifications under the disqualifiers, 2C:58-3, are the same criteria for all three licenses – Firearm ID Cards, Pistol Purchase Permit, and Carry Permit. All are regulated by the same disqualifiers, such as you can’t be a convicted felon, you can’t have a Domestic Violence restraining order, you can’t have had a mental health commitment, etc. But as long as you qualify for a Firearms Purchaser ID Card or a Pistol Purchase Permit, you qualify for your Carry Permit now, and you can get it. So don’t delay. Don’t delay. There are certain Winds of War, shall we say. There’s a feeling out there that a lot of people know something’s not right, and we’ve made ourselves extremely vulnerable. And ultimately, it’s not going to be up to the police or the military to protect you. It’s going to be up to yourself. Look at what happened even in a place that’s as security conscious as Israel. Take care and make sure that your personal armaments have the basics, that you’re ready and that you have enough ammunition as well. Look, Lake City (Army Ammunition Plant) has stopped commercial sale of .556 ammo because it’s all going to the war. Two and a half inch 410 shotshells – you can’t buy them right now. There’s a shortage, again, happening now on ammunition. If you don’t have enough ammunition, you better get ammunition before it’s too late. It’s drying up. People are thinking about what I’m saying. Folks are taking steps. Make sure you do, too. Make sure you’re ready. Make sure you’re prepared.

Evan Nappen 21:53

In our struggle here to keep our rights so that we can be prepared, so that we can protect ourselves, so that we can at least have this ability is, of course, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the preeminent gun rights defenders for the state of New Jersey. And New Jersey, as you may know, is the frontlines of the battle for our gun rights. So, make sure you join the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. You can find them at anjrpc.org. They have a full-time paid lobbyist. They’re the folks that are there in Trenton. They’re the folks that are litigating as we speak in Federal Court challenging these anti-gun laws. They’re the folks that helped get the No Serial Number (NSN) Page – 6 – of 9

gun ban resolved so that millions of guns were saved. They’re the folks that got the training requirements reduced from the insanity of us having to be veteran SWAT police officers in order to carry down to competent firearm owners that can demonstrate core competency. These are the tremendous steps in this incredibly hostile environment that the Association has been successful. Now, they need your help. So, make sure you’re a member of ANJRPC. Go right to their website at anrpc.org.

Evan Nappen 23:22

Let me also just remind you that my book is indispensable. My book is over 500 pages. It’s called the New Jersey Gun Law. It explains all the laws, and it explains 120 topics in question answer format. And at 500 plus pages, the book is a weapon itself. Just kidding about that, but it’s pretty big. And it is the Bible of New Jersey gun law. Ask anyone that has it. You can, right on the cover, subscribe for free updates. We’re keeping you on top of all the changes so that the book stays accurate and current. Go to EvanNappen.com. Make sure you get a copy. Ask anyone who has a copy how much they use it – all the time. There’s nothing else out there that explains it. It’s a labor of love and my passion to keep that book as up to date and current as possible. When we come back, I have some really interesting letters from great fans.

Speaker 3 24:26

For over 30 years Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six bestselling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 25:40

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

Evan Nappen 25:56

Let me tell you about an experience I just had. I was able to get my qualification and certification done at WeShoot. That’s right. That’s where I qualified, and you can qualify there too. They’re great. The instructors are awesome. I had the special privilege of being instructed by Heidi, and Heidi is just fantastic. You’ll love Heidi. She was a great instructor. I went there and did the new training qualifications. It was a breeze, and I can highly recommend that you go there and do the same. WeShoot is a range located in Lakewood. It was so easy to get to. Right off the parkway, no big deal. A wonderful facility and they treat everyone like family. Let me tell you it was pretty busy when I went there. But they were able to handle everybody very efficiently. It’s a popular place and for a reason, a Page – 7 – of 9

very good reason. Because they really take care of their customers, and I’m not just saying that. They really do. That place is loved, and you can see why. Go there and get the WeShoot experience. You’ll be glad you did. It’s a great indoor range. They have a super selection of guns. They will take the time and explain. Whether you know nothing about guns, or whether you are a seasoned gun owner, or just an old gun nut like me, it’s a great place for real. Check out weshootusa.com That’s their website.

Evan Nappen 27:35

Oh, by the way, I shot a ballistic gummy bear. That was a blast. Shooting that ballistic gummy bear was so much fun. But you should see that bear after you shoot it up. It’s pretty cool. And you get to keep it, t0o. So, they have some really special fun things planned. They’re going to do a special thing for Thanksgiving. Go check out what they’re doing on the website. If you’ve never shot a ballistic gelatin teddy bear, well, you better put that on your bucket list, and you can do it at WeShoot. So, that was a blast. Get over there. You’ll see what I’m talking about. Man, I wouldn’t steer you wrong. The place is just great, and the people there, Mark and Eli, what a great group. Head over there to WeShoot.

Evan Nappen 28:21

Now, let’s take a look here at some letters that have come in to Ask Evan. I always love hearing from listeners. This is from George. And George asks, regarding modifying a firearm trigger from stock. To your knowledge has anyone been charged with or modified a firearm trigger from trigger stock that was used against them in court? I know there was a case of use of aftermarket parts with the Punisher logo and other sayings on them that were used to paint a New Jersey police officer in a negative light, but I can’t find any case where trigger modification was used negatively against a firearm owner.

Evan Nappen 29:09

Well, let me just tell you that in New Jersey, a modified trigger is not criminal per se. However, if that trigger modification can make it operate fully automatic or if it’s a trigger crank, or it’s something like that where you’re creating a simulation of machine gun fire with the modification to the trigger, then you could have trouble. But if we’re just talking about a modified trigger where it’s been lightened to some degree or made heavier to some degree or something along those terms, that’s not an issue that is criminally covered. The trigger weight, trigger pull, you know, that type of thing is not in criminal statutes. Now, civilly, maybe, rarely, but maybe. Because if the trigger has been modified in such a way that it made it dangerous or arguably dangerous or someone was injured because the trigger had been modified in such a way that made it more vulnerable for firing, it’s why many police departments with Glocks and other guns, would get the trigger that had the heavier weight to it. So that it was less likely for an accidental discharge to occur. In those regards, there may be some civil, maybe, regarding that, but if you’re just doing a normal trigger modification, where you’re tuning the trigger and making it maybe somewhat lighter, but you’re really just making it so you have a more accurate trigger pull. Or you’re doing standard gunsmithing to just give you what we would all call a nice trigger, you know, one with a clean break. That glass rod feel, right? That’s fine.

Evan Nappen 31:05

But if it starts getting into crazy world with modifications that make the gun potentially dangerous, or turn it into something that becomes in a banned provision of full auto, and of course, if you have certain other drop-in triggers and other things like that, that ATF themselves right now is hot after such as Page – 8 – of 9

forced-reset triggers, which is being litigated, but they went around trying to confiscate them. And we’re back and forth in the courts on that. If we’re talking about that stuff, well, that’s a whole other world of potential problems, but your normal gunsmithing, make my trigger great type deal, is nothing to worry about. It’s not criminal. It’s not civil.

Evan Nappen 31:51

Hey, I have another letter here, and this letter is also from George, but it’s a different George, but it’s still with George. George says, Hi, Evan. I hope you’re doing well. I’m going to apply for my New Jersey CCW soon, and I plan on qualifying with my two handguns. One is a Sig P226, and the other is an S&W M&P Shield Compact. Both do not have safeties. I have two quick questions. Do you see any legal issues or otherwise with using guns without a safety for qualifying or carrying? My Shield is less than 10 rounds? Do you see any issues with getting and carrying extended 10 round mags for this? Thanks for your time.

Evan Nappen 32:37

Okay, let’s carefully look at these questions. Number one, I’m glad he’s going to get his Carry and every law-abiding citizen should. But he’s looking to qualify with two handguns. There is no need to qualify with two handguns. The way it works in Jersey now is that you qualify with one handgun. With that one handgun you qualify, and then you fill out the other form, “Permit to Carry – Description of additional handguns to be carried”, (found on the NJSP Website, Firearms Forms, S.P. 182a (6/23)) and just list any other gun that you intend to carry. It doesn’t matter what gun you qualify with, as long as you qualify by demonstrating and proving the core competency of the new training requirements. It doesn’t matter anymore what gun you use. You could qualify with a Ruger Mark IV .22 target pistol, and then on your list, you could carry a Smith and Wesson 500 Magnum if you wanted to. It’s not a problem. So, just qualify with one gun, and then feel free to put the guns that you wish to carry on the other form. Then you can carry them because it’s not a matter of qualifying for that specific gun. Now, if you personally want to be trained and qualified on each specific gun you have, by all means do it. You can pursue plenty of extra training. It’s always good to get training, but it’s not required for you to get your Carry Permit that you have a separate qualification for each gun.

Evan Nappen 34:05

As far as seeing any legal issues for guns without a safety, no. First of all, what are we talking about? Do you mean a manual safety? Well revolvers, for the most part, don’t have manual safeties. We’ve been using them for 100 years. Glocks, one of the most popular handguns in all of America, don’t have manual safeties. Now they do have safeties. However, they have dropped safeties and other safeties that are internal, that make the gun safe. But as far as the manual safety, it’s not required. As you should know, the real safety device on any gun, the premier safety device, is what’s between your two ears, folks. That’s what you have to always remember. Every gun is loaded. Remember the rules of safety and treat them all in that manner. Every gun is lethal. You need to have the trigger discipline, and you need to always have that respect. Manual safeties are not mandatory. But if you feel that you would like a gun with a manual safety, if that’s something that appeals to you, by all means have a manual safety. But it’s not of criminal law concern in any way, whether you have a manual safety at all. Page – 9 – of 9

Evan Nappen 34:09

Now, as far as magazines, New Jersey prohibits any mag over 10 rounds. So, if the gun holds up to 10 rounds, you’re fine. Now this question about carrying extended 10 round mags, I guess you mean because the Shield has less than 10. But if you had an extended mag that held up to 10, would that be okay? And the answer is sure. Because the magazine still does not hold over 10. So, you can have any size sub compact gun, you know, super small, but the mag sticks out, but it only holds 10. Then you’re okay. But if you’re talking about extending a 10 round beyond 10, you’re not okay because you can’t have a mag that holds over 10. You can have 10 rounds in the mag and one up the spout. So, you’d have a total of 11 rounds legally in New Jersey with your carry gun. As long as that’s what it is, it doesn’t matter whether the magazine itself was extended to hold 10 rounds or whether it came factory as 10. But until we win the lawsuit, you never want to have a magazine over 10 rounds, because then you could face a criminal charge of possession of a large capacity magazine, which carries up to a year and a half in State Prison, and you get disenfranchised of your gun rights because you’re now a convicted felon. Then you can’t have any guns or carry any guns because you had the nerve to have a mag that held more than 10 rounds. It makes so much sense, doesn’t it? And that’s of course why, as I say gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 37:16

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E155_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 154-Knife Liberty UpdateAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 154SUMMARY KEYWORDS

knives, knife, switchblade, new jersey, ban, gun, great, rights, judge, state, court, federal, pistol, laws, gun rights, carry, law, guns, fsa, second amendment

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:00

Hi, I’m Evan Nappen and welcome to Gun Lawyer. The number one rated gun rights podcast in the world, according to Feedspot, who rates such things. Hey, people ask me, you know, what do you like? What are the things you like, particularly like, to collect? What do you enjoy? They’ll ask me that, and I’ll say, well, I have to strictly limit myself. It has to shoot or cut for me to like it. And given those incredible limitations, let’s talk about the cut part. So, I’ve always been a fan of knives, edged weapons. I write about knives. I’ve written for Blade Magazine and Knives Annual. I did a book on U.S. Knife Laws for Gun Digest. So, knives are a passion. I’m proud to say that I helped work on getting the jumpstart of the Knife Liberty Movement in the United States, working closely with Knife Rights and Doug Ritter. We started it in New Hampshire with the repeal of their knife ban on switchblade, dagger, Durk, and stiletto. Since that repeal back in 2010, you know, I lost track of how many, 20 plus, states have repealed their knife laws, and we’re going full steam ahead.

Evan Nappen 01:48

So, I have an update here because you see knives are, of course, protected under the Second Amendment. The Second Amendment is the right to keep and bear arms. It’s not the right to keep and bear guns, its arms. And knives are included under the banner of arms. So many people have knives and love knives, and use dies every day. And it’s really important that we protect all arms that our Second Amendment right guarantees us. Knives are not only no exception, but a major part of the world that you and I love to live in and that is the outdoors. And the incredible utilitarian value that knives have in our EDC knife, or Every Day Carry knife and knives that we use in the kitchen, knives to use for hunting, knives to use for camping, etc. I’m sure you all have drawers full of various knives that you love. Some of you, like me, have so many that you don’t even know how you ended up with so many knives, but who cares? Because you can’t have too many knives.

Evan Nappen 03:06

Now, the thing about knives is there is a prejudice to knives in the same way that there is prejudice to guns. The only difference is that guns have an organized anti-gun propaganda and money machine, funded by Soros and Bloomturd and folks like that with money in this movement. There are not really a lot of people that want to see rights taken away. There are some that are just authoritarian communists basically that want to get rid of our rights, but the majority of people don’t. These groups exert these influences, and it’s been a battle for gun rights. And we’re fighting and succeeding. Page – 2 – of 8

Evan Nappen 04:00

As many of you know, we’ve made tremendous headway, particularly in the courts with the absolute fantastic landmark Bruen decision by our hero, Justice (Clarence) Thomas. He wrote the majority opinion, and Bruen is having tremendous effect across the board as we battle these atrocious intrusions into our Second Amendment rights. And knives being arms, I’m proud to say that Knife Rights, which is, in so many words, the NRA of knives. In other words, they’re a group that focuses on defending knife rights, and they’re the largest, most successful knife rights group in America. Their chairman is good friend of mine, Doug Ritter.

Evan Nappen 04:55

Well, Knife Rights has taken on the Federal Switchblade Act and has challenged the constitutionality of the Federal Switchblade Act, what we call FSA. So, the FSA, which is a federal ban on switchblades, was enacted in the late ’50s. And it was enacted in the same way that anti-gunners today put forward propaganda, working on emotion and not facts, as they try to disarm and disenfranchise every American. Back in the ’50s, when everyone knew that the cause of youth violence was the switchblade. Right? I mean, you just had to watch West Side Story or James Dean, and you knew it was the switchblade that was the culprit, causing the corruption of our youth. So, working on this emotion in the same way as anti-gun law proponents do today, they were able to pass the Federal Switchblade Act. The FSA created a ban federally on switchblades. But the federal ban is written in a very cumbersome, stupid way, that is, on one hand problematic, but on the other hand, helpful.

Evan Nappen 06:36

Because it was done in ’58, they weren’t as sophisticated when they passed their anti-weapons laws. And this law, although there is a federal ban, the federal ban does not ban possession of switchblades in the United States, underlining states in the States. It does not ban possession in the States under federal law. So, if you’re just possessing a switchblade in your state, you can. There’s no federal law you can be charged with for unlawful possession of a switchblade. But what the federal law did do was it banned the interstate commerce, selling and transporting across state lines for furtherance of this, the switchblade knife. And by doing this, it created a problem for their continued sale because distribution and selling became the problem. It was up to individual states whether they wanted to have their own state bans. As you may know, New Jersey does, and we’ll talk about that in a minute.

Evan Nappen 07:57

But the federal ban has some weird loopholes that you may not even realize about how bona fide dealers, who have contracts that can sell to the Government, are actually allowed to receive them via this narrow exemption. But they never defined what a bona fide dealer is. So, dealers who receive these knives in interstate commerce today, as long as they’re selling in a contract at some point, they’re sold to a police officer or military personnel, then they’re able to get these knives. But they’re not required to sell the knives that they receive in interstate commerce to only those folks. It’s just that is what exempts them to receive it. Once they have it in their possession in the state, then they only have to obey state law. Because of this contorted loophole, so to speak, ownership of switchblades has become widespread throughout free America. And we’ve made it freer with the Knife Liberty Movement. Page – 3 – of 8

Evan Nappen 09:11

Now with 36 states that allow for possession and carry of switchblade knives, the overwhelming majority having some ability to possess switchblade knives, it is time for the federal law to go, to be removed from the books, using the Bruen decision and its interpretation of how the Second Amendment gets applied to test the constitutionality of laws. The Federal Switchblade Act plainly cannot survive, and this is really great. Because once we wipe out the Federal knife laws, there will be no base, no foundation, of federal knife laws. We can clean up the states that still may have some knife laws here or there. We can do it both legislatively and via the courts, that’s how the Knife Liberty Movement works. In this way we preserve and reestablish complete knife freedom and liberty in the United States. This is such a critical step by Knife Rights in filing their federal challenge to the FSA to finally wipe it out. If they are successful, which I believe they will be, the impact of a federal court, particularly a Supreme Court decision, on this will then be utilized to wipe out the remaining state bans that exist. Then we can once again have knife freedom throughout America.

Evan Nappen 11:10

So, what’s exciting here is that Knife Rights has not only filed their action in the Texas federal court, but they filed for a summary judgment motion, meaning that the facts of the case are not in dispute. They just need a legal opinion by the judge on the law as to whether the federal law is in violation of our guarantee under the Second Amendment. This is where the case begins. Now, of course, after the Fifth Circuit, regardless of win or lose, you’ll probably see an appeal to the Court of Appeals. Then from there, it could then go to the United States Supreme Court, potentially. In this case where Knife Rights filed their lawsuit, well, that is the same federal court and in front of the same judge, who is Judge O’Connor. Now Judge O’Connor is, in my opinion, another one of the modern heroes of Second Amendment juris prudence. Judge O’Connor is the same judge in Mock versus Garland, who invalidated the pistol brace ban in another lawsuit. He’s that great judge, who made it clear that the pistol brace ban is also unconstitutional and in violation not only of that, but also of the Administrative Procedures Act. You know, the way Biden jammed it through with his co- conspirator, Attorney General Garland.

Evan Nappen 13:05

In addition to that on the pistol brace ruling, there’s serious ramifications from the judge’s opinion because this judge gets it. This judge gets it so much so that he made it clear how not only the pistol brace where the stay has been granted and all, but his ruling is placing plainly in jeopardy the SBR itself. The very National Firearms Act that prohibits a short barrel rifle. Because as he points out, all the short barrel rifle does is allow you to shoot more accurately and to use it in the manner intended, which is what the Constitution is all about protecting. So, this judge gets it. The same theory about this can plainly be applied to other challenges. I’m sure it will and is, including magazines and so-called assault weapons, etc. So, this judge’s great opinion on the pistol brace has even farther reaching potential. And this is the same judge that the FSA challenge is going before. The switchblade challenge is going for this great judge.

Evan Nappen 14:20

Let me tell you some interesting things about the switchblade ban that you may not even know. Did you know that in 1958, when they were having hearings on this switchblade act, it was just a propaganda Page – 4 – of 8

dog and pony show to fool the public. Do you know that in the actual hearing, there was testimony, and this is right in the Senate report, that in the United States two manufacturers of knives, just two manufacturers at that time, had a combined production of over 1 million switchblades a year? Did you realize that in the 1950s, just two knife companies were making over a million switchblades a year? Even today, we see a tremendous amount, but we don’t call them switchblades. They are automatic knives. And why is this important? Because one of the things under Bruen is common use. Well, there’s no argument that switchblades are in common use. Their very own hearings of the day in ’58 made it clear. There were over a million a year being produced by two companies and that did not include what was being imported. So, common use? They can’t even argue anything about that. It’s a fact it was in common use. So, that gets the common use issue under Bruen covered.

Evan Nappen 16:13

Because remember, Bruen said that an arm, which is in common use for lawful purposes, is what’s protected. Well, switchblades or automatic knives are plainly in common use and used for many, many lawful purposes. And look, it’s not just me saying they’re used for lawful purposes. Did you know that the Department of Justice opposed, yeah opposed, The Federal Switchblade Act in 1958? Imagine having a Justice Department that good, as opposed to what we have today, this weaponized anti-rights Justice Department. Instead, the Justice Department of the ’50s, well, here’s what they said about switchblades back then. They did not recommend that the FSA pass. And they said, by prohibiting the transportation of a single item which “is not inherently dangerous” they themselves knew it was not inherently dangerous, “but requires the introduction of a wrongful human element to make it so.” Imagine that. Imagine that. They’re actually blaming the person and not the item. The switchblade is not intrinsically evil. It doesn’t go run around and stab people by itself. Oh, no, no. It’s actually bad people. There is nothing inherently dangerous about a folding knife that opens automatically. And the Justice Department knew it, stated it, and went on record against it.

Evan Nappen 17:57

They further said, “Switchblades in the hands of criminals are, of course, potentially dangerous weapons. However, since they serve useful and even essential purposes, in the hands of persons such as sportsmen, shipping clerks, and others engaged in lawful pursuits, the committee may deem it preferable that they be regulated by the state rather than at the federal level.” This was signed by William P. Rogers, Deputy Attorney General at the time. So, there you go. The Government itself at the time of the Federal Switchblade Act admitted that they are in common use, and they’re not inherently dangerous. This is why a summary judgment motion comes out now, saying, look, there’s no question about this. A switchblade is covered by what Bruen talks about – no question. Now they have to apply the test of history, text and tradition. It wasn’t until 1958 that we saw the first switchblade laws, which are way too new to even have any historical precedent as far as Bruen is concerned. So, this is an excellent legal challenge taking place that will have long range and long term implications not just for knives, but other things as well. And it’s yet another impact of the great Bruen decision.

Evan Nappen 19:33

Now, you know, in New Jersey switchblades are defined differently than under federal law. The Federal Switchblade Act defines a “switchblade knife” as any knife having a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button or other device in the handle of the knife or by operation of inertia, Page – 5 – of 8

gravity or both. That’s the Federal definition. But the state definition in New Jersey says, “Switchblade Knife means any knife or similar device which has a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of a knife.” So, they’re similar, but slightly different. The fact is that the key element in both the Federal and State law is that the blade opens automatically but it’s by a button or other device in the handle of a knife. So, the button becomes the key, or the other device, that makes it open automatically.

Evan Nappen 20:48

Some of you, I’m sure, have seen what are called “assisted openers”, where you start the blade a little bit, and then it opens all the rest of the way automatically. To the uneducated, they might say, hey, that’s a switchblade. No, it’s not. The reason it’s not a switchblade is it doesn’t open with the use of a button or other device in the handle the knife. It’s simply assisted. You’re literally pushing the blade itself to start it. When you start thinking about just how silly the switchblade law is, when the assistant opener opens the blade automatically. It just doesn’t have a button. We’re federally banning folding knives because of a button. I mean, it’s just as stupid and as silly as it gets. So, what makes it prohibited? The entire mystery is in the laws of the emotions and everything in there. And what has it been applied to? Oooooo, switchblades, you know. But that’s not it at all anymore, especially in the modern day. It’s simply a folding knife, and it’s one of the safer folding knives. Because unlike other knives, it actually locks closed. Normally, folding knives don’t.

Evan Nappen 22:10

So, this will hopefully open up the beginning of the end of knife laws via this court challenge, and I would highly recommend that you support Knife Rights. Join as a member to support their efforts as they fight for Knife Liberty across the board. They make such a difference. It is an arm that is protected, and we don’t leave any arm left in our fight for our Second Amendment rights. They all matter. As a matter of fact, the slogan of Knife Rights is, not the official one, but it’s one of their slogans, All Knives Matter. And in fact, all knives do matter. Switchblades or automatic knives are one of those that truly matter. So, please support Knife Rights.

Evan Nappen 23:16

Hey, guess what? The clock is ticking. The clock is ticking, folks, on the recertification that you need to do for keeping your Carry Permit in New Jersey. Even though we got that great extension, it’s December 31. So, make sure you get your requalification if you’re a permit holder. Yes, the requirements have been substantially made simpler, and they focus now on what are the core fundamentals, core competency and that’s it. No more of this you have to be a SWAT police officer in order to qualify just to carry to defend yourself. But you still need to get it. If you’re thinking about applying to get your new carry that’s what you need to take. If you have an old carry permit, you need to requalify and get it done by December 31.

Evan Nappen 24:16

Let me just tell you that a great place where you can get this done is WeShoot. WeShoot is a range in Lakewood, a great indoor range. They have fantastic trainers, and they treat you like family. They really are wonderful people. A buddy of mine went there, and he told me how thrilled he was. How great they treated him. He was like, Evan, you weren’t kidding. I said no, these guys are great. They really are. He Page – 6 – of 8

went and got his certification, and you can, too. It’s a great place to shoot right there in Lakewood. They have not only all the great facilities, but they do a lot of fun stuff. I’m looking forward to October 11th there to shoot the huge ballistic gummy bear that you can get. It’s like a gummy teddy. You can pick what gun you want and blast it. That looks like a lot of fun, and you get to keep the ballistic gummy bear that you shot up as a souvenir. It’s going to be fun. They do all kinds of cool stuff like that. It is a great resource. You really need to go to WeShoot. Check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com. Look at their Facebook page as well. They have great photography. And they are dedicated to their customers. You’ll see what I mean when you go there. It’s just a great place. I just want to remind you that they support Gun Lawyer, and I’m really happy they do. It means that I have the opportunity to tell you about all these interesting things that we all love.

Evan Nappen 26:01

Another great sponsor is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs (ANJRPC). They are the premier gun rights organization in New Jersey. They are the group that is litigating in federal courts against the Carry Killer bill, against the assault firearm ban, against the magazine ban, making progress. My good friend and colleague, Dan Schmutter, handles their federal litigation, and I frequently talk with him. They’re doing great work. All together, we were able to get the changes, through the Association as the leader, we were able to get the changes to the No Serial Number (NSN) gun ban that had banned millions of guns. So much so, that the CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program) quit selling guns to New Jersey. I mean, come on. You want to get a Garand from the CMP, but sorry, you have that stupid Jersey law that prohibits you. That has all been removed. So, you can get guns from the CMP again. The whole threat with NSN guns is all gone. We’re able to negotiate to get these training requirements reduced to just core competency. So, all those insane other things they were requiring, where there was a 40% failure rate, under the old standards. Folks, 40% of the people that wanted to simply defend themselves were being denied because they couldn’t pass the egregious, extreme qualification course designed for law enforcement doing activities that no average law-abiding citizen would ever have to do. Now because of the change to something more reasonable in requirements, the courses and those signing up for courses have dramatically increased. Individuals were being discouraged from applying under the old qualifications and that’s now changed. And that’s critical. Because every person that becomes not just a gun owner but someone who carries a gun for a defense, they have a vested interest in our Second Amendment rights. They become the strongest defenders because they know how much it personally means to them. And it makes all the difference.

Evan Nappen 28:29

So, look, the Association is there, and they’re doing a tremendous job. They have a great newsletter. The best gun rights newsletter in New Jersey. The things that we fight in New Jersey spread in the anti-gun mechanism, their propaganda. They use Jersey as their experimental grounds. This is the front line on the battle for gun rights, and the Association is right there on the front lines defending it. So, please join anjrpc.org. Make sure you’re a member. Be part of the solution by joining ANJRPC. You’ll be glad you did when you look back and see how much we’ve been able to change things. Think how amazing it is, seriously, right now. Think about it. You can actually get a shall issue carry permit based on objective standards with a qualification course that you can actually pass. That carry was a virtual impossibility before Bruen, and the great work of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. That’s a milestone – an amazing accomplishment. I’m sure many of us never thought we’d ever see that Page – 7 – of 8

day when we’d have carry in Jersey and here, we have shall issue. And this is just the beginning. Because as we get more and more folks doing that, eventually even New Jersey will have Constitutional Carry. You mark my words. It’s how every state has evolved, and we will, too. You want to be there as part of it, gaining our rights back. It’s slow. It’s incremental, but that’s how we lost them as well, folks. So, we’re doing great. We’re doing better and better every day.

Evan Nappen 30:30

Hey, let me do one last thing before I get some great letters from my beloved listeners. And that is shamelessly promote my book. If you don’t have a copy of New Jersey Gun Law, you sure need it. It’s over 500 pages, and it has 120 topics, all in question and answer format. You know, New Jersey’s gun laws are so freakin complex. If you just start cold, you’ll never figure them out. But with my book, you’ll be able to. You’ll get an understanding, and you’ll be able to fully comprehend this insane matrix that New Jersey lays out for gun owners. I wrote it for that reason, and it’s a labor of love. Hundreds and hundreds of man hours and it’s the Bible of New Jersey gun law. So, get a copy of New Jersey Gun Law, and don’t forget to subscribe to the free updates. Just hit that QR code on the cover. They’re 100% free, and you will get alerts about anything new. You get full access to the subscriber archives. This book is a living book that stays current and updated. Usually within 24 hours of any change, I’m letting you know, by email, and you’re able to download it and stay on top of these changes. So, go to EvanNappen.com. It’s my name, and it’s a.com. EvanNappen.com. Click on the big orange book there and order yourself a copy.

Evan Nappen 32:04

Hey, I have some letters. Let’s take a look at what some of the folks are saying. Here’s a good one. This is from Harris. We’ll just call him Harris. Hello Mr. Nappen. I have a court issued permit with my handguns listed on the court order. If I qualify with one gun under the new protocols, would that cover all my handguns on my court order? Thanks in advance. Well, we get this question a lot, and I’m going to tell you right now, it does not cover you. We have arguments about why it should, and I get that. But the reason it doesn’t is, if it’s court ordered, if it’s a court ordered permit, it’s a court order. Your permit has an accompanying court order that says this is what you must do. And that court order stands alone, as a court order. If you violate a court order, you can be held in contempt of the court order. Not only can they prosecute you for contempt of the court order, but you could face and will face your carry permit being revoked for not following the order that accompanied it. I know it’s ridiculous. But it’s how our laws work, and our laws often work ridiculously. And if you do not like that situation, the courts have barred you from going back to the court to try to fix it. Yes, they deny gun owners access to the courts, you can’t even believe it’s America, but they do. They do not allow you to go back to try to get that changed. Too bad, tough noogies. Where do you think you live, in America? No, you’re in New Jersey, don’t forget that. You cannot go back to the court even though it’s a court order. That’s contrary to the law. That’s contrary to the protocols. It’s contrary to what the State Police say. Sorry, you’re stuck.

Evan Nappen 33:59

So, what can you do? The only thing you can do is you can give up that permit and go get yourself a chief-issued permit. With a chief-issued permit, one gun qualifies you, and you put any gun you wish to carry, as we’ve discussed on the show before, on the form and you’re covered. It doesn’t matter which gun you qualified with. As long as you put the other guns on the form that you might intend to carry, you Page – 8 – of 8

can carry them. But you can’t do that with a court issued permit. Like I said, one of the best things that ever happened with that Carry Killer law, if there’s any little nugget of gold in that whole crappy bill, it’s that they got judges out of the issuance of permits, because that’s what screwed us from day one, folks. That’s how “justifiable need” became the monster that it was to stop law-abiding citizens. It was Judge created. So, these judges don’t defend our rights. They don’t stand up for the Second Amendment. They do what they can to limit it and to disenfranchise us. Don’t be fooled. So, if you don’t like that, I’m sorry, but the only answer is to wait until your permit expires. When you get your new one, it’ll be through the chief, or give up the current one and get one that’s issued by the chief. Then you cannot be bound by that ridiculous situation there.

Evan Nappen 35:23

Here’s a letter from Greg. Greg asks regarding pistol parts transportation. I know there are many restrictions on transporting a handgun. My question is, if I need to have work done on the slide only, can I transport just the slide without an issue? I’m asking because in order to get to the local shop, before they close, I need to take the slide to work with me and then go to the shop for the work to be done. The shop’s hours are such that I can’t get home from work and back to the shop before they close. Thank you for all you do, Greg. Greg, yes, you can. The pistol slide is not a firearm. The frame is. The slide is just a gun part, and it’s a lawful gun part to your gun that you want to get gunsmithing done on. Just possession of a slide, believe it or not, they don’t prohibit just possession of a slide in New Jersey. Now, if you manufactured the slide yourself out of metal, then they might claim you’re making those guns. But that’s not the case here. You’re talking about your slide on your manufactured, produced, commercial gun, and you just need to get some gunsmithing done. Just having a slide without the frame, without the firearm itself, is no problem. No problem whatsoever. You can have that with you and bring it from work to the gunsmith. Now, if for some reason your work has its own special bans on things, well, that’d be something between your employer and you. But there is not a law in New Jersey that would prohibit you just having that slide on your person. There’s no offense in New Jersey, believe it or not. No offense in New Jersey called unlawful possession of a pistol slide. Nope. Don’t have that one yet. Now, hey, maybe, you know, maybe this will inspire them to start creating even more new and absurd laws that have to be taken out with the power of the Bruen there, but at the moment, it’s not an issue. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 37:45

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E154_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 134-You Have Your Carry Permit... Now What? Also Available On Podcast Transcript Gun Lawyer Episode 134 SUMMARY KEYWORDS carry, prohibition, handgun, gun, prohibited, place, firearm, permit, new jersey, law, facility, gun rights, lawyer, judge bumb, casinos, insurance, book, including, public, exemptions

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Episode 133 Making Bart Simpson Legal Also Available On Podcast Transcript Gun Lawyer Episode 133 SUMMARY KEYWORDS slingshot, new jersey, law, gun, weapons, montalvo, defense, second amendment, gun rights, large capacity magazine, lawyer, prohibited, shoot, case, slung, carry, anti, heller, guns, freedom

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Episode 107-The Case of The Loaded Chicken Also Available On Podcast Transcript Gun Lawyer Episode 107 SUMMARY KEYWORDS gun, cmp, tsa, called, chicken, lawyer, books, revolver, dcm, buy, law, firearms, evan, case, gun owner, client, spokesman, places, weapons, fbi SPEAKERS Evan Nappen,

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Episode 105-Knife Law Victories You Need to Know About Also Available On Podcast Transcript Gun Lawyer Episode 106 SUMMARY KEYWORDS knife, law, new hampshire, judge, carry permit, gun, bill, repeal, new jersey, rights, gun rights, carry, second amendment, firearms, switchblade, ban, handgun,

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Episode 81- Hyper Inflation, Nickels & the Screaming Aztec Death Whistle Also Available On Podcast Transcript Gun Lawyer Episode 81 SUMMARY KEYWORDS nickel, blade, crock, knife, sharpening, gun, property, sticks, knives, scabbard, carrying, firearm, cold steel, evan, edge, inflation, magnet, lawyer, piece,

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Episode 65- It's All About Knives Also Available On Podcast Transcript Gun Lawyer Episode 65 Transcript SUMMARY KEYWORDS knife, randall, blade, gerber, laws, switchblade, gun, buy, flea market, swiss army knife, new hampshire, bike, rights, wrote, lawyer, model, special commemorative, ban, mortician,

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Episode 35- Knife Liberty and the 2nd Amendment Also Available On Podcast Transcript Gun Lawyer Episode 35 - Transcript SUMMARY KEYWORDS knife, switchblade, ban, law, new hampshire, gun rights, assisted, opener, freedom, blade, gun, states, rights, fight, guns, automatic, repeal, lawyer, firearm,

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Episode 25- Five Gun Law Myths That Can Land You In Jail Also Available On Podcast Transcript Gun Lawyer Episode 25 - Transcript Gun Lawyer S1 Episode 25 SUMMARY KEYWORDS myth, lawyer, rights, gun, license, police, blade length, gun laws, glove box,

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Also Available On Should Convicted Felons Be allowed to possess a gun? In this episode, Evan takes on this controversial topic from an angle you never expected. Podcast Transcript Gun Lawyer Season 1 Episode 2 - Transcript Systemic Racism, Amy Barrett

Knife Rights – Gun Lawyer Podcast: Recent Episodes

Evan Nappen, Esq