The Robin Zander Show: Recent Episodes

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In this episode, I'm joined by Adam Rosendahl – facilitator, artist, and founder of Late Nite Art – for a conversation about creativity, trust, belonging, and why deeply human experiences may matter more than ever in an increasingly AI-driven world.

Adam's work uses collaborative art, storytelling, music, and facilitation to help people lower their defenses and reconnect with one another in ways that traditional meetings, networking, and workplace culture often fail to create. We explore how creativity can function as a kind of social technology — building trust, emotional openness, empathy, and shared experience across strangers, teams, and organizations.

We talk about the origins of Late Nite Art, the leadership camps and formative experiences that shaped Adam's philosophy, and why so many people today feel disconnected despite being constantly online. Along the way, we explore relationship-centered leadership, workplace trust, emotional safety, political polarization, experiential learning, and why organizations increasingly need spaces for genuine human connection.

Toward the second half of the conversation, we discuss AI, automation, digital overwhelm, and the growing tension between technological acceleration and preserving humanity, creativity, and embodied experience. Adam also reflects on friendship, handwritten art, illuminated notes, and why imperfect human-made experiences may become even more valuable in a world saturated with AI-generated content.

If you're thinking about creativity, leadership, belonging, trust, or how to stay emotionally grounded in rapidly changing times, this conversation is for you.

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In this episode, I'm joined by Sara Loncka – experiential learning designer, leadership strategist, and CEO of Experience Institute – for a conversation about why human experience may matter more than ever in an increasingly AI-driven world.

Sara's work focuses on leadership development, experiential learning, and organizational transformation, but this conversation goes far beyond workplace training. It's about what happens when people become disconnected from themselves, each other, and the environments shaping their lives – and why intentional experiences can interrupt the routines, assumptions, and identity patterns we often move through unconsciously.

At the center is Sara's distinction between "little e" experiences and "Big E" Experiences. Little e experiences are the stories, habits, and assumptions people accumulate over time. Big E Experiences are intentionally disruptive moments that create reflection, discomfort, curiosity, and transformation. We talk about why growth often requires stepping outside familiar environments, embracing beginner mindsets, and placing ourselves in situations where certainty and competence disappear.

We also explore the origins of Experience Institute, why traditional corporate training often fails, how experiential learning creates lasting behavioral change, and the challenge of building organizations that remain deeply human as technology accelerates. Along the way, Sara reflects on founder transitions, reinvention, identity, discomfort, and how even small experiences can quietly reshape the direction of a person's life.

Toward the end, the conversation becomes more personal as Sara shares how pregnancy and motherhood have challenged her relationship with control, embodiment, and uncertainty – becoming a different kind of transformational experience entirely.

If you're thinking about leadership, personal growth, reinvention, or how to stay connected to what feels deeply human in rapidly changing times, this conversation is for you.

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In this episode, I'm joined by Eric Ries – entrepreneur, founder of the Lean Startup movement, and author of The Lean Startup and Incorruptible – for a conversation about what it actually takes to build companies that last.

Eric's work has shaped how startups and large organizations approach innovation, but this conversation goes deeper than experimentation. It's about what happens after you succeed and why so many good companies slowly lose their way.

At the center is a concept he calls financial gravity: the invisible force that pushes organizations toward short-term decisions, often at the expense of customers, employees, and long-term value. We talk about how this pressure shows up everywhere – from venture-backed startups to public companies – and why even well-intentioned leaders struggle to resist it.

We dig into real examples, from Costco and Patagonia to lesser-known companies that have built what Eric calls "incorruptible" systems – organizations designed to hold their values under pressure. That means not just strong culture, but governance, ownership, and structures that reinforce the mission over time.

We explore: Where things break. Why founders lose control. Why incentives drift. Why "best practices" often lead to worse outcomes. And why resisting that pull requires more than good intentions.

Along the way, we touch on AI, alternative ownership models, and the growing tension between innovation and accountability, especially as new technologies are being built inside increasingly concentrated power structures.

If you're building a company, thinking about long-term value, or trying to create something that doesn't fall apart as it scales, this podcast is for you.

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In this episode, I'm joined by Ellen Huet – journalist at Bloomberg and author of Empire of Orgasm – for a conversation about power, belonging, and the sometimes blurry line between influence and manipulation.

Ellen has spent over a decade covering Silicon Valley – from AI startups to the personalities shaping the industry. Empire of Orgasm explores OneTaste, the sexual wellness company and alleged sex cult. Throughout the book, Ellen also explores the broader question of how high-demand groups actually work.

At the center of this book is the uncomfortable idea that cults aren't a binary; they exist on a spectrum. And, as we discuss in depth, many of the dynamics we associate with extreme groups – belonging, shared language, mission-driven work, charismatic leadership – show up in everyday organizations more than we'd like to admit.

We talk about what she learned reporting on OneTaste, from the power of social pressure and status to the subtle ways people are influenced without ever being explicitly told what to do. Ellen breaks down how "consent" gets distorted in these environments, and why the ability to freely say "no" is the clearest line between healthy influence and coercion.

We also explore the overlap between cult dynamics and modern business – especially in tech. From grand mission statements to founder mythology, there's often an emotional pull that goes beyond logic. Ellen shares how these forces show up in AI companies today, and why the belief that you're "part of something world-changing" can be both motivating and dangerous.

Along the way, we get into sales, persuasion, and the tension between helping someone and overriding their agency. Where is the line between influence and manipulation?

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In this episode, I'm joined by Joshua Zerkel – community strategist, former Evernote ambassador turned community leader, and author of The Community Code – for a conversation about what it really takes to build community that drives business outcomes.

Joshua's path is anything but typical. He started as a power user and advocate, writing productivity books about Evernote before eventually joining the company and helping scale its community as it grew from 100M to 200M users. From there, he went on to build and lead community at Asana, turning it into a global program spanning forums, ambassadors, experts, and hundreds of events – all tied to real pipeline impact.

His work centers on a simple but often misunderstood idea: community is just relationships at scale. We talk about why community is so often undervalued inside organizations, how to translate its impact to business leaders, and the constant tradeoffs between depth and reach.

We dig into the messy realities of building community inside companies – from navigating trust during Evernote's privacy-policy crisis to responding to backlash and actually listening when your users push back. Joshua shares what breaks when companies stop listening, why "personas" often miss the point, and how to design community programs around real people instead.

We also explore the role of events as a community engine – how to think about formats, why in-person still matters, and what separates meaningful engagement from surface-level activity. Along the way, we touch on the fine line between community and cult dynamics, and what companies like Peloton get right when it comes to creating real connection.

If you're building community, trying to prove its value, or thinking about how relationships translate into growth, this conversation is for you.

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.In this episode, I'm joined by Lindsey Caplan — organizational psychologist, former Hollywood screenwriter, and upcoming author — for a conversation about creativity, communication, and how people and groups are actually moved.

Lindsey's path is anything but linear. She started her career on TV and film sets in Los Angeles, working on shows like Malcolm in the Middle, Curb Your Enthusiasm, and The Amazing Race. From there, she transitioned into learning and development at companies like DreamWorks Animation, Zendesk, and Credit Karma, eventually stepping fully into organizational design and change work at The Gathering Effect.

Her new book, Moved — coming March 2027 — explores the forces that shape human behavior: what moves us, how we can move others, and why pull, not push, is the most sustainable path to influence. We talk about why the book took nine years to write, what she learned about the psychology of groups, and why "being seen and heard" is at the heart of all meaningful change.

We dig into the creative process, including the messy parts: identity shifts, losing and regaining a creative voice, and what it takes to translate an idea that lives in your head into something that lands with other people. Lindsey shares how her storytelling roots shape her work today — from understanding stakes and motivation to designing experiences that create real engagement, not just compliance.

We also explore the gap between knowing and doing, why so many best-practice books fail to stick inside organizations, and how leaders can communicate in ways that create ownership instead of resistance.

If you're curious about influence, the craft of writing, or how to move people without pressure, this conversation is for you.

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This conversation between Robin Zander and Gagan Biyani, founder of Maven and early contributor to Udemy, Lyft, and Spread, explores the intersection of growth, education, and entrepreneurship. The session begins with a brief mindfulness exercise for the audience before diving into Biyani's career and his perspective on growth. He distinguishes growth from traditional marketing by emphasizing that growth is a systematic approach that integrates product, analytics, and user behavior to drive scalable results, rather than solely focusing on branding or messaging. Biyani also addresses the ethics of growth, noting that while manipulation is unavoidable in communication, respecting users' agency and providing genuine value is key. Fear or guilt about "manipulating" others often hinders action, whereas ethical influence fosters trust and long-term engagement. Drawing from his own experiences, he underscores the importance of providing optimism and clarity, rather than relying on fear-based tactics, in both marketing and education. Education remains a central theme of Biyani's work. At Udemy, he helped pioneer live, video-based courses to make learning more accessible online, though he notes systemic barriers prevented it from fully replacing traditional college education. Maven continues this mission with cohort-based programs led by industry experts, helping professionals rapidly gain practical skills. Biyani highlights the transformative potential of AI in upskilling, explaining that while AI won't replace human teachers, it significantly expands access and efficiency for learners across industries. Reflecting on his broader entrepreneurial journey, Biyani shares lessons from Lyft and Spread. Lyft demonstrated the power of timing and product-market fit, while Spread taught him that execution alone is not enough – understanding the market and being "right" about demand is essential. Across all ventures, he emphasizes pattern recognition, balancing exploration with focused execution, and learning from successes and failures alike. Ultimately, Biyani's philosophy is to tackle challenging problems that align with personal strengths, respect users' agency, and leverage insight and experimentation to create meaningful impact.

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Robin Zander hosted a Snafu webinar for the Sidebar community on non-sales selling—think self-promotion for career transitions, freelancers, entrepreneurs, and product people. The goal: learn to "sell yourself" without the ick factor.

Participants shared fears: follow-ups feel intimidating, sales feels slimy, and success seems like a numbers game. Robin reframed it: selling is really about enrollment—being a chief evangelist for your work, not begging for attention.

Drawing on stories from his childhood pumpkin patch, his time as a personal trainer (where desperation lost him clients), and opening Robin's Cafe in San Francisco (raising $40k, serving multiple stakeholders, training staff with Danny Meyer's principles), he showed the difference between selling from need vs. service. Long-term success comes from genuine connection, curiosity, optimism, and passion.

Attendees explored their "authentic attitude" and reflected on times self-promotion felt good versus slimy. Exercises included mapping all the people who benefit from your work—employees, customers, managers, mentees, community—and practicing generosity in selling (a "Miracle on 34th Street" mindset: help customers even if it means sending them elsewhere).

In Q&A, Robin tackled:

• Asking for promotions as modeling for others, especially women and minorities
• Persistence in follow-ups (yes, emailing Mark Benioff 53 times counts)
• Relationship-based enterprise selling
• Avoiding fear-based AI marketing by knowing who you serve and what problem you solve

Recommended reading: Setting the Table (Danny Meyer), Unreasonable Hospitality (Will Guidara), The New Strategic Selling.

Robin also shared upcoming Snafu conference details (March 5, Oakland Museum of California) and reminded everyone: Snafu = situation normal; all fucked up.

00:00 Start 01:06 Audience Fears About Selling * Robin Zander welcomes 93 participants to the webinar * Notes the session is interactive with exercises planned

+ Encourages participants to drop questions in chat or interrupt him

• Last 15–20 minutes reserved for questions

• Robin introduces himself briefly

• Focuses on storytelling as a tool for self-promotion

• Shares experience as a community builder

• Runs a conference called Responsive since 2016 (not Snafu)

  • Tools, structures, and company cultures for resilient organizations
  • Two-day event each September on the future of work
  • Focus on building resilience in organizations

• Observations on rapid change

• Technology and work-life changes happening at a fast pace
• Questions about resilience in individuals
• Traits needed in careers, personal relationships, professional relationships

• Ability to stay resilient through change

• Robin frames his expertise

  • Emphasizes his strength in asking questions and fostering honest conversations
  • Labels himself a reluctant salesperson
  • Not the world's leading expert on self-promotion or selling

• Key lessons from research and interviews

• Two buckets matter in business and life:

  • Example: Sidebar community forming coalitions for learning and action
  • Operational excellence: being competent and at least as good as others Promotion/enrollment/sales: standing up, saying what you want, building coalitions

• Started interviewing people about influence and persuasion

• Started a weekly newsletter called Snafu
• Written by hand, not AI
• Shares lessons from his life and others about self-promotion and resilience

• Focus on courage to take action: raising hand, offering something valuable

• Core characteristics of self-promotion and selling yourself

• Connecting with others: art of connection Courage to ask: inspired by Amanda Palmer's TED Talk and book The Art of Asking

• Opposes traditional "always be closing" sales mentality

• Advocates for simply asking for what you want

• Current work mostly involves storytelling for large companies

• Clients include Supersonic, Airbnb, Zappos, and others

12:25 Service as the Core Principle * Robin introduces the concept of storytelling for self-promotion

+ Stories used to:

    - Get promotions
    - Build coalitions
    - Propel career or organizational growth

• Emphasizes turning personal, career, or company stories into "commercials"

• Focus of today's talk: self-promotion with impact

  • Core principle: service

    • Showing up from a place of helping others
    • Through helping others, also helping oneself
    • Distinguishes between sleazy salespeople and effective self-promoters

• Childhood anecdote: Robin's pumpkin patch

  • Tended plants all summer, learned responsibility and care
  • Harvested pumpkins and sold them using a small red tin box labeled "money"
  • Ran "Robin's Pumpkin Patch" for five to seven years
  • At age five, father had him plant pumpkin seeds

• Engaged neighborhood kids for fun, collaborative promotion

  • Explained product (pumpkins) enthusiastically to potential buyers
  • Used scarecrow costumes and creative gestures to attract attention

• Lessons learned from pumpkin patch:

• Authentic enthusiasm creates value
• Helping people do what they were already inclined to do
• Early experience of earning and serving simultaneously

• Self-promotion is most effective when it's service-driven, not manipulative

• Applying childhood lesson to career and business

  • Asking for a raise
  • Persuading companies to choose one service over another

  • Promoting oneself or others (e.g., Evan, web developer)

    • Key principle: approach self-promotion from delight and service, not need or fear
    • Authentic enthusiasm as foundation for:

• Interactive exercise for participants

  • Not influenced by sleep deprivation or stress
  • Could be inspired by childhood or adult experiences
  • Opposite of fear; personal and unique for each participant
  • Question posed: what is your authentic attitude when self-promoting?

• Examples shared from participants:

• Curiosity
• Passion
• Inspiration
• Service to others
• Observation
• Possibility
• Insight
• Value
• Helping others
• Creativity
• Belief in serendipity

• Optimism

• Key takeaway from exercise and story

  • Promoting from delight, enthusiasm, and service
  • Promoting from need or fear
  • Two versions of self-promotion:

• Effective self-promotion aligns with authenticity and enthusiasm, creating value for others while advancing oneself

18:36 Gym Job and Needy Selling * Robin shares the next story and sets up the next exercise

+ Gym culture is sales-heavy
+ Initial motivation: love of fitness, desire to help people
+ Quickly realizes environment incentivizes personal trainers to sell aggressively

• Timeframe: ~20 years later, at age 20, moved to San Francisco

• First post-college job: personal trainer in gyms

• Early experience at gyms

  • Key lesson from early failure

    • Selling from need feels gross
    • Promoting oneself from fear or desperation leads to poor results
    • Recognizes similarity to unwanted sales calls received personally
    • First authentic success in self-promotion
    • Worked at Petro and World's Gym in San Francisco, Pilates instructor
    • Owner confronted Robin after two weeks: no clients, potential clients being lost to others
    • Threatened termination by Friday if no clients acquired
    • Robin froze under pressure, approached clients but with needy, desperate energy
    • Outcome: fired by Friday, left gym

• Encounters man in pain on Valencia Street, offers help as personal trainer

• Approach comes from genuine care, desire to serve

• Leads to three-year working relationship, consistent sessions, good income

• Next client: world-famous photographer Michael Light at UCSF swimming pool

• Client comes from natural connection, not pushy salesmanship

• Dichotomy observed:

• Pushy, need-based self-promotion → freeze, poor results

• Service-oriented self-promotion → natural connections, sustained relationships

• Exercise for participants

• Prompt: identify two moments:
• One time self-promoting felt slimy → what were you doing?

• One time self-promoting felt good → what were you doing differently?

• Two-minute reflection / chat participation

• Participant reflections/examples
• Slimy examples:
• Interviewing for a job during layoffs, giving desperate energy
• Selling P&L at a hyperscaler
• Selling computers and printers in UK post-college
• Sales emails getting ghosted

• Feeling inauthentic or performative, taking advantage of someone

• Good examples:

• Offering services out of care and love rather than ROI
• Showing impact of work to junior child
• Knowing services add real value and solve a challenge

• Being clear on what the other person needs

• Key takeaway

• Self-promotion feels different depending on intent and knowledge
• Slimy → desperate, inauthentic, unclear value to recipient

• Authentic → service-driven, clear value, connection-focused

• Effective self-promotion combines knowing your value and serving others, not just pushing for personal gain

25:35 Miracle on 34th Street Lesson * Feeling good in self-promotion comes from genuinely helping, solving problems, and sharing information

+ Santa Claus hired at Macy's to hold kids and give candy canes, but real goal: persuade parents to buy from Macy's
+ Santa instead sends parents to competitor to truly serve them
+ Macy's manager initially furious
+ Outcome: customers feel genuinely served, return praising Macy's, become loyal fans

• Robin references Miracle on 34th Street (original version)

• Key insight: providing real value, even if it benefits someone else, eventually returns value to you

• "Put enough bread across the water, eventually good things come back"

• Participant reflections

• Slimy: knowing audience expects judgment, catering to them for approval

• Good: giving the gift of knowledge, providing service freely

• Takeaway: authentic self-promotion is rooted in service, generosity, and sharing expertise, not manipulating for immediate gain

27:45 Starting Robin's Cafe Through Service * Robin shares a major professional turning point: opening Robin's Cafe in 2016

+ No restaurant experience beyond college busing tables
+ Opened in three weeks, eventually grew to 15 employees by 2018

• Worked in multiple industries: Pumpkin patch, personal trainer, circus performer

• Opened a café/restaurant in Mission District, San Francisco

• Courage and conviction came from clear focus on service to others

  • Employees: create a great workplace, go-giver culture Investors: $40k raised from friends/family, provided value and potential return
  • Landlords (ODC, nonprofit dance center): wanted success of business to support community
  • Customers: diverse—tech workers, kids in dance classes, local community
  • Robin himself: financial sustainability, learning, personal growth
  • Key audiences served by Robin's Cafe

• Approach to challenges

  • Used Danny Meyer's Setting the Table as a service-focused framework for employees

    • Philosophy: "giving in order to get paid"
      • Examples: spouse, kids, dog, manager, peers, mentees, clients, community, customers, extended family, mentors
    • Served multiple stakeholders during crises: break-ins, flooding, city permitting, neighborhood issues
    • Exercise: identify all the people who benefit from your work or success

• Key idea: the more stakeholders served, the easier self-promotion becomes, because it comes from service, not need or pressure

  • Show up thinking: does this serve the person I'm talking to?
  • Principle: selling yourself from a place of service

• Consider multiple stakeholders simultaneously

  • Audience question: elaborate on applying this service mindset specifically to asking for a promotion

    • Tying service to self-promotion in career advancement
    • Result: asking for a raise, applying for jobs, pitching clients—all easier and more authentic

38:11 Promotion As Service * Asking for a promotion from a place of service

+ Example: doing the role already, deserving recognition, asking for what you believe you've earned.

• Personal perspective: advocating for yourself is a form of service to yourself

• Recognize other stakeholders in the process:

  • Modeling courage and advocacy for the next generation
  • Authority enables ideas to be taken more seriously
  • Stories gained from new responsibilities enhance value to clients or teams
  • People you mentor, especially women or underrepresented groups
  • The organization: your promotion can make it stronger
  • Your family or children: showing them what it looks like to advocate

• Concrete examples

  • Outcome: trajectory of career positively influenced, demonstrated courage, modeled behavior
  • Asking first time for a manager role
  • Later asking for VP title as a director

• Courage and small steps

• Courage = acting despite fear, not absence of fear
• Practice by taking incremental steps toward what scares you

• Avoid masking or hesitation; direct action builds confidence and results

• Persistence and follow-up

  • Busy people require patience and multiple nudges
  • Example: Mark Stubbings emailing Mark Benioff 53 times before a yes
  • Persistence = respectful, consistent follow-ups

• Role modeling for women and minorities

  • Demonstrates that asking is a normal, expected, and service-oriented act
  • Many don't ask for promotions or raises due to upbringing or cultural norms
  • Modeling advocacy teaches the next generation, including children, to speak up

• Service mindset in practice

• Approach self-promotion by asking: is this good for the other person?
• Keep intention aligned with service, not desperation
• Books for guidance:
• Setting the Table – Danny Meyer: service-driven sales and employee culture

• Unreasonable Hospitality – Will Guidara: lessons from the restaurant world on giving value and delight

• Key takeaways for promotion and asking

• Serve yourself, your mentees, your organization, and your broader audience
• Take small, courageous steps to ask for what you deserve
• Follow up respectfully and consistently; don't assume silence = no

• Self-promotion becomes easier and authentic when rooted in service, not fear or need

• Snafu Newsletter

• Weekly newsletter written by Robin
• Covers influence, persuasion, and modern workplace dynamics
• A resource for ongoing learning and practical insights

56:55 Where to Find Robin * Robin's newsletter covers influence, persuasion, and modern work. + Snafu Conference + Responsive Conference + Robin Zander on social medias

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In this episode, I'm joined by Rebecca Hinds — organizational behavior expert and founder of the Work AI Institute at Glean — for a practical conversation about why meetings deteriorate over time and how to redesign them.

Rebecca argues that bad meetings aren't a people problem — they're a systems problem. Without intentional design, meetings default to ego, status signaling, conflict avoidance, and performative participation. Over time, low-value meetings become normalized instead of fixed.

Drawing on her research at Stanford University and her leadership of the Work Innovation Lab at Asana, she shares frameworks from her new book, Your Best Meeting Ever, including:

• The four legitimate purposes of a meeting: decide, discuss, debate, or develop
• The CEO test for when synchronous time is truly required
• How to codify shared meeting standards
• Why leaders must explicitly give permission to leave low-value meetings

We also explore leadership, motivation, and the myth that kindness and high standards are opposites. Rebecca explains why effective leaders diagnose what drives each individual — encouragement for some, direct challenge for others — and design environments that support both performance and belonging.

Finally, we talk about AI and the future of work. Tools amplify existing culture: strong systems improve, broken systems break faster. Organizations that redesign how work happens — not just what tools they use — will have the advantage.

If you want to run better meetings, lead with more clarity, and rethink how collaboration actually happens, this episode is for you.

You can find Your Best Meeting Ever at major bookstores and learn more at rebeccahinds.com.

00:00 Start 00:27 Why Meetings Get Worse Over Time * Robin references Good Omens and the character Crowley, who designs the M25 freeway to intentionally create frustration and misery. + They use this metaphor to illustrate how systems can be designed in ways that amplify dysfunction, whether intentionally or accidentally. - The idea is that once dysfunctional systems become normalized, people stop questioning them.

• They also discuss Cory Doctorow's concept of enshittification, where platforms and systems gradually decline as organizational priorities override user experience.

• Rebecca connects this pattern directly to meetings, arguing that without intentional design, meetings default to chaos and energy drain.

• Over time, poorly designed meetings become accepted as inevitable rather than treated as solvable design problems.

• Rebecca references the Simple Sabotage Field Manual created by the Office of Strategic Services during World War II.

• The manual advised citizens in occupied territories on how to subtly undermine organizations from within.
• Many of the suggested tactics involved meetings, including encouraging long speeches, focusing on irrelevant details, and sending decisions to unnecessary committees.
• The irony is that these sabotage techniques closely resemble common behaviors in modern corporate meetings.

• Rebecca argues that if meetings were designed from scratch today, without legacy habits and inherited norms, they would likely look radically different.

• She explains that meetings persist in their dysfunctional form because they amplify deeply human tendencies like ego, status signaling, and conflict avoidance.

• Rebecca traces her interest in teamwork back to her experience as a competitive swimmer in Toronto.

• Although swimming appears to be an individual sport, she explains that success is heavily dependent on team structure and shared preparation.
• Being recruited to swim at Stanford exposed her to an elite, team-first environment that reshaped how she thought about performance.
• She became fascinated by how a group can become greater than the sum of its parts when the right cultural conditions are present.

• This experience sparked her long-term curiosity about why organizations struggle to replicate the kind of cohesion often seen in sports.

• At Stanford, Coach Lee Mauer emphasized that emotional wellbeing and performance were deeply connected.

• The team included world record holders and Olympians, and the performance standards were extremely high.
• Despite the intensity, the culture prioritized connection and belonging.

• Rituals like informal story time around the hot tub helped teammates build relationships beyond performance metrics.

• Rebecca internalized the lesson that elite performance and strong culture are not opposing forces.

• She saw firsthand that intensity and warmth can coexist, and that psychological safety can actually reinforce high standards rather than weaken them.

• Later in her career at Asana, Rebecca encountered the company value of rejecting false trade-offs.

• This reinforced a lesson she had first learned in swimming, which is that many perceived either-or tensions are not actually unavoidable.
• She argues that organizations often assume they must choose between performance and happiness, or between kindness and accountability.
• In her experience, these are false binaries that can be resolved through better design and clearer expectations.

• She emphasizes that motivated and engaged employees tend to produce higher quality work, making culture a strategic advantage rather than a distraction.

• Kindness versus ruthlessness in leadership

• Robin raises the contrast between harsh, fear-based leadership styles and more relational, positive leadership approaches.
• Both styles have produced winning teams, which raises the question of whether success comes because of the leadership style or despite it.
• Rebecca argues that resilience and accountability are essential, regardless of tone.
• She stresses that kindness alone is not sufficient for high performance, but neither is harshness inherently superior.
• Effective leadership requires understanding what motivates each individual, since some people thrive on encouragement while others crave direct challenge.
• Rebecca personally identifies with wanting to be pushed and appreciates clarity when her work falls short of expectations.
• She concludes that the most effective leaders diagnose motivation carefully and design environments that maximize both growth and performance.

08:51 Building the Book-Launch Team: Mentors, Agents, and Choosing the Right Publisher * Robin asks Rebecca about the size and structure of the team she assembled to execute the launch successfully. + He is especially curious about what the team actually looked like in practice and how coordinated the effort needed to be. + He also asks about the meeting cadence and work cadence required to bring a book launch to life at that level. - The framing highlights that writing the book is only one phase, while launching it is an entirely different operational challenge.

• Rebecca explains that the process felt much more organic than it might appear from the outside.
• She admits that at the beginning, she underestimated the full scope of what a book launch entails.
• Her original motivation was simple: she believed she had a valuable perspective, wanted to help people, and loved writing.
• As she progressed deeper into the publishing process, she realized that writing the manuscript was only one piece of a much larger system.

• The operational and promotional dimensions gradually revealed themselves as a second job layered on top of authorship.

• Robin emphasizes that writing a book and publishing a book are fundamentally different jobs.

• Rebecca agrees and acknowledges that the publishing side requires a completely different skill set and infrastructure.

• The conversation underscores that authorship is creative work, while publishing and launching require strategy, coordination, and business acumen.

• Rebecca credits her Stanford mentor, Bob Sutton, as a life changing influence throughout the process.

• He guided her step by step, including decisions around selecting a publisher and choosing an agent.
• She initially did not plan to work with an agent, but through guidance and reflection, she shifted her perspective.

• His mentorship helped her ask better questions and approach the process more strategically rather than reactively.

• Rebecca reflects on an important mindset shift in her career.

• Earlier in life, she was comfortable being the big fish in a small pond.
• Over time, she came to believe that she performs better when surrounded by people who are smarter and more experienced than she is.
• She describes her superpower as working extremely hard and having confidence in that effort.
• Because of that, she prefers environments where others elevate her thinking and push her further.

• This philosophy became central to how she built her book launch team.

• As Rebecca learned more about the moving pieces required for a successful campaign, she became more intentional about who she wanted involved.

• She sought the best not in terms of prestige alone, but in terms of belief and commitment.
• She wanted people who would go to bat for her and advocate for the book with genuine enthusiasm.
• She noticed that some organizations that looked impressive on paper were not necessarily the right fit for her specific campaign.

• This led her to have extensive conversations with potential editors and publicists before making decisions.

• Rebecca developed a personal benchmark for evaluating partners.

• She paid attention to whether they were willing to apply the book's ideas within their own organizations.
• For her, that signaled authentic belief rather than surface level marketing support.
• When Simon and Schuster demonstrated early interest in implementing the book's learnings internally, it stood out as meaningful alignment.

• That commitment suggested they cared about the substance of the work, not just the promotional campaign.

• As the process unfolded, Rebecca realized that part of her job was learning what questions to ask.

• Each conversation with potential partners refined her understanding of what she needed.
• She became more deliberate about building the right bench of people around her.
• The team was not assembled all at once, but rather shaped through iterative learning and discernment.
• The launch ultimately reflected both her evolving standards and her commitment to surrounding herself with people who elevated the work.

12:12 Asking Better Questions & Going Asynchronous * Robin highlights the tension between the voice of the book and the posture of a first time author entering a major publishing house. + He notes that Best Meeting Ever encourages people to assert authority in meetings by asking about agendas, ownership, and structure. - At the same time, Rebecca was entering conversations with an established publisher as a new author seeking partnership. * The question becomes how to balance clarity and conviction with humility and openness.

• Robin frames it as showing up with operational authority while still saying you publish books and I want to work with you.

• Rebecca calls the question insightful and explains that tactically she relied heavily on asking questions.

• She describes herself as intentionally curious and even nosy because she did not yet know what she did not know.
• Rather than pretending to have answers, she used inquiry as a way to build authority through understanding.
• She asked questions asynchronously almost daily, emailing her agent and editor with anything that came to mind.

• This allowed her to learn the system while also signaling engagement and seriousness.

• Rebecca explains that most of the heavy lifting happened outside of meetings.

• By asking questions over email, she clarified information before stepping into synchronous time.
• Meetings were then reserved for ambiguity, decision making, and issues that required real time collaboration.
• As a result, the campaign involved very few meetings overall.
• She had a biweekly meeting with her core team and roughly monthly conversations with her editor.

• The rest of the coordination happened asynchronously, which aligned with her philosophy about effective meeting design.

• Rebecca jokes that one hidden benefit of writing a book on meetings is that everyone shows up more prepared and on time.

• She also felt internal pressure to model the behaviors she was advocating.
• The campaign therefore became a real world test of her ideas.

• She emphasizes that she is glad the launch was not meeting heavy and that it reflected the principles in the book.

• Robin shares a story about their initial connection through David Shackleford.

• During a short introductory call, he casually offered to spend time discussing book marketing strategies.
• Rebecca followed up, scheduled time, and took extensive notes during their conversation.
• After thanking him, she did not continue unnecessary follow up or prolonged discussion.
• Instead, she quietly implemented many of the practical strategies discussed.

• Robin later observed bulk sales, bundled speaking engagements, and structured purchase incentives that reflected disciplined execution.

• Robin emphasizes that generating ideas is relatively easy compared to implementing them.

• He connects this to Seth Godin's praise that the book is for people willing to do the work.
• The real difficulty lies not in brainstorming strategies but in consistently executing them.
• He describes watching Rebecca implement the plan as evidence that she practices what she preaches.

• Her hard work and disciplined follow through reinforced his confidence in the book before even reading it.

• Rebecca responds with gratitude and acknowledges that she took his advice seriously.

• She affirms that several actions she implemented were directly inspired by their conversation.
• At the same time, the tone remains grounded and collaborative rather than performative.

• The exchange illustrates her pattern of seeking input, synthesizing it, and then executing independently.

• Robin transitions toward the theme of self knowledge and its role in leadership and meetings.

• He connects Rebecca's disciplined execution to her awareness of her own strengths.
• The earlier theme resurfaces that she sees hard work and follow through as her superpower.
• The implication is that effective meetings and effective leadership both begin with understanding how you operate best.

17:48 Self-Knowledge at Work * Robin shares that he knows he is motivated by carrots rather than sticks. + He explains that praise energizes him and improves his performance more than criticism ever could. - As a performer and athlete, he appreciates detailed notes and feedback, but encouragement is what unlocks his best work. - He contrasts that with experiences like old school ballet training, where harsh discipline did not bring out his strengths. * His point is that understanding how you are wired takes experience and reflection.

• Rebecca agrees that self knowledge is essential and ties it directly to motivation.

• She argues that the better you understand yourself, the more clearly you can articulate what drives you.

• Many people, especially early in their careers, do not pause to examine what truly motivates them.

• She notes that motivation is often intangible and not primarily monetary.
• For some people it is praise, for others criticism, learning, mastery, collaboration, or autonomy.

• She also emphasizes that motivation changes over time and shifts depending on organizational context.

• One of Rebecca's biggest lessons as a manager and contributor is the importance of codifying self knowledge.

• Writing down what motivates you and how you work best makes it easier to communicate those needs to others.

• She believes this explicitness is especially critical during times of change.

• When work is evolving quickly, assumptions about motivation can lead to disengagement.

• Making preferences visible reduces friction and prevents misalignment.

• Rebecca references a recent presentation she gave on the dangers of automating the soul of work.

• She and her mentor Bob Sutton have discussed how organizations risk stripping meaning from roles if they automate without discernment.
• She points to research showing that many AI startups are automating tasks people would prefer to keep human.
• The warning is that just because something can be automated does not mean it should be.

• Without understanding what makes work meaningful for employees, leaders can unintentionally remove the very elements that motivate people.

• Rebecca believes managers should create explicit user manuals for their team members.

• These documents outline how individuals prefer to communicate, what motivates them, and what their career aspirations are.
• She sees this as a practical leadership tool rather than a symbolic exercise.
• Referring back to these documents helps leaders guide their teams through uncertainty and change.

• When asked directly, she confirms that she has implemented this practice in previous roles and intends to do so again.

• When asked about the future of AI, Rebecca avoids making long term predictions.

• She observes that the most confident forecasters are often those with something to sell.
• Her shorter term view is that AI amplifies whatever already exists inside an organization.

• Strong workflows and cultures may improve, while broken systems may become more efficiently broken.

• She sees organizations over investing in technology while under investing in people and change management.

• As a result, productivity gains are appearing at the individual level but not consistently at the team or organizational level.
• Rebecca acknowledges that there is a possible future where AI creates abundance and healthier work life balance.
• However, she does not believe current evidence strongly supports that outcome in the near term.
• She does see promising examples of organizations using AI to amplify collaboration and cross functional work.
• These examples remain rare but signal that a more human centered future is possible.

• She is cautiously hopeful but not convinced that the most optimistic scenario will unfold automatically.

• Robin notes that time horizons for prediction have shortened dramatically.

• Rebecca agrees and says that six months feels like a reasonable forecasting window in the current environment.
• She observes that the best leaders are setting thresholds for experimentation and failure.
• Pilots and proofs of concept should fail at a meaningful rate if organizations are truly exploring.

• Shorter feedback loops allow organizations to learn quickly rather than over commit to fragile long term assumptions.

• Robin shares a formative story from growing up in his father's small engineering firm, where he was exposed early to office systems and processes.

• Later, studying in a Quaker community in Costa Rica, he experienced full consensus decision making.

• He recalls sitting through extended debates, including one about single versus double ply toilet paper.

• As a fourteen year old who would rather have been climbing trees in the rainforest, the meeting felt painfully misaligned with his energy.

• That experience contributed to his lifelong desire to make work and collaboration feel less draining and more intentional.
• The story reinforces the broader theme that poorly designed meetings can disconnect people from purpose and engagement.

28:31 Leadership vs. Tribal Instincts * Rebecca explains that much of dysfunctional meeting behavior is rooted in tribal human instincts. + People feel loyalty to the group and show up to meetings simply to signal belonging, even when the meeting is not meaningful. + This instinct to attend regardless of value reinforces bloated calendars and performative participation. - She argues that effective meeting design must actively counteract these deeply human tendencies. - Without intentional structure, meetings default to social signaling rather than productive collaboration.

• Rebecca emphasizes that leadership plays a critical role in changing meeting culture
• Leaders must explicitly give employees permission to leave meetings when they are not contributing.
• They must also normalize asynchronous work as a legitimate and often superior alternative.
• Without that top down permission, employees will continue attending out of fear or habit.
• Meeting reform requires visible endorsement from those with authority.
• Power dynamics and pushing back without positional authority
• Robin reflects on the power of writing a book on meetings while still operating within a hierarchy.
• He asks how individuals without formal authority can challenge broken systems.
• Rebecca responds that there is no universal solution because outcomes depend heavily on psychological safety.
• In organizations with high trust, there is often broad recognition that meetings are ineffective and a desire to fix them.

• In lower trust environments, change must be approached more strategically and indirectly.

• Rebecca advises employees to lead with curiosity rather than confrontation.

• Instead of calling out a bad meeting, one might ask whether their presence is truly necessary.
• Framing the question around contribution rather than judgment reduces defensiveness.
• This approach lowers the emotional temperature and keeps the conversation constructive.

• Curiosity shifts the tone from personal critique to shared problem solving.

• In psychologically unsafe environments, Rebecca suggests shifting enforcement to systems rather than individuals.

• Automated rules such as canceling meetings without agendas or without sufficient confirmations can reduce personal friction.
• When technology enforces standards, it feels less like a personal attack.
• Codified rules provide employees with shared language and objective criteria.
• This reduces the perception that opting out is a rejection of the person rather than a rejection of the structure.
• Rebecca argues that every organization should have a clear and shared definition of what deserves to be a meeting.
• If five employees are asked what qualifies as a meeting, they should give the same answer.

• Without explicit criteria, decisions default to habit and hierarchy.

• Clear rules give employees confidence to push back constructively.

• Shared standards transform meeting participation from a personal negotiation into a procedural one.

• Rebecca outlines a two part test to determine whether a meeting should exist.

• First, the meeting must serve one of four purposes which are to decide, discuss, debate, or develop people.
• If it does not satisfy one of those four categories, it likely should not be a meeting.
• Even if it passes that test, it must also satisfy one of the CEO criteria.
• C refers to complexity and whether the issue contains enough ambiguity to require synchronous dialogue.
• E refers to emotional intensity and whether reading emotions or managing reactions is important.

• O refers to one way door decisions, meaning choices that are difficult or costly to reverse.

• Many organizational decisions are reversible and therefore do not justify synchronous time.

• Robin asks how small teams without advanced tech stacks can automate meeting discipline.

• Rebecca explains that many safeguards can be implemented with existing tools such as Google Calendar or simple scripts.
• Basic rules like requiring an agenda or minimum confirmations can be enforced through standard workflows.
• Not all solutions require advanced AI tools.

• The key is introducing friction intentionally to prevent low value meetings from forming.

• Rebecca notes that more advanced AI tools can measure engagement, multitasking, or participation.

• Some platforms now provide indicators of attention or involvement during meetings.
• While these tools are promising, they are not required to implement foundational meeting discipline.
• She cautions against over investing in shiny tools without first clarifying principles.

• Metrics are useful when they reinforce intentional design rather than replace it.

• Rebecca highlights a subtle risk of automation, particularly in scheduling.

• Tools can be optimized for the sender while increasing friction for recipients.
• Leaders should consider the system level impact rather than only individual efficiency.
• Productivity gains at the individual level can create hidden coordination costs for the team.
• Meeting automation should be evaluated through a collective lens.
• Rebecca distinguishes between intrusive AI bots that join meetings and simple transcription tools.
• She is cautious about bots that visibly attend meetings and distract participants.
• However, she supports consensual transcription when it enhances asynchronous follow up.
• Effective transcription can reduce cognitive load and free participants to engage more deeply.
• Used thoughtfully, these tools can strengthen collaboration rather than dilute it.

41:35 Maker vs. Manager: Balancing a Day Job with a Book Launch * Robin shares an example from a webinar where attendees were asked for feedback via a short Bitly link before the session closed. + He contrasts this with the ineffectiveness of "smiley face/frowny face" buttons in hotel bathrooms—easy to ignore and lacking context.\ - The key is embedding feedback into the process in a way that's natural, timely, and comfortable for participants. - Feedback mechanisms should be integrated, low-friction, and provide enough context for meaningful responses.

• Rebecca recommends a method inspired by Elise Keith called Roti—rating meetings on a zero-to-five scale based on whether they were worth attendees' time.
• She suggests asking this for roughly 10% of meetings to gather actionable insight.
• Follow-up question: "What could the organizer do to increase the rating by one point?"
• This approach removes bias, focuses on attendee experience, and identifies meetings that need restructuring.

• Splits in ratings reveal misaligned agendas or attendee lists and guide optimization.

• Robin imagines automating feedback requests via email or tools like Superhuman for convenience.

• Rebecca agrees and adds that simple forms (Google Forms, paper, or other methods) are effective, especially when anonymous.

• The goal is simplicity and consistency—given how costly meetings are, there's no excuse to skip feedback.

• Robin references Paul Graham's essay on maker vs. manager schedules and asks about Rebecca's approach to balancing writing, team coordination, and book marketing.

• Rebecca shares that 95% of her effort on the book launch was "making"—writing and outreach—thanks to a strong team handling management.
• She devoted time to writing, scrappy outreach, and building relationships, emphasizing giving without expecting reciprocation.

• The main coordination challenge was balancing her book work with her full-time job at Asana, requiring careful prioritization.

• Rebecca created a strict writing schedule inspired by her swimming discipline: early mornings, evenings, and weekends dedicated to writing.

• She prioritized her book and full-time work while maintaining family commitments.
• Discipline and clear prioritization were essential to manage competing but synergistic priorities.
• Robin asks about written vs. spoken communication, referencing Amazon's six-page memos and Zandr Media's phone-friendly quick syncs.

• Rebecca emphasizes that the answer depends on context but a strong written communication culture is essential in all organizations.

• Written communication supports clarity, asynchronous work, and complements verbal communication.

• It's especially important for distributed teams or virtual work.
• With AI, clear documentation allows better insights, reduces unnecessary content generation, and reinforces disciplined communication.

48:29 AI and the Craft of Writing * Rebecca highlights that employees have varying learning preferences—introverted vs. extroverted, verbal vs. written. + Effective communication systems should support both verbal and written channels to accommodate these differences. - Rebecca's philosophy: writing is a deeply human craft. AI was not used for drafting or creative writing. * AI supported research, coordination, tracking trends, and other auxiliary tasks—areas where efficiency is key.

• Human-led drafting, revising, and word choice remained central to the book.

• Robin praises Rebecca's use of language, noting it feels human and vivid—something AI cannot replicate in nuance or delight.

• Rebecca emphasizes that crafting every word, experimenting with phrasing, and tinkering with language is uniquely human.
• This joy and precision in writing is not replicable by AI and is part of what makes written communication stand out.
• Rebecca hopes human creativity in writing and oral communication remains valued despite AI advances.
• Strong written communication is increasingly differentiating for executive communicators and storytellers in organizations.

• AI can polish or mass-produce text, but human insight, nuance, and storytelling remain essential and career-relevant.

• Robin emphasizes the importance of reading, writing, and physical activities (like swimming) to reclaim attention from screens.

• These practices support deep human thinking and creativity, which are harder to replace with AI.

• Rebecca uses standard tools strategically: email (chunked and batched), Google Docs, Asana, Doodle, and Zoom.

• Writing is enhanced by switching platforms, fonts, colors, and physical locations—stimulating creativity and perspective.
• Physical context (plane, café, city) is strongly linked to breakthroughs and memory during writing.

• Emphasis is on how tools are enacted rather than which tools are used—behavior and discipline matter more than tech.

• Rebecca primarily recommends business books with personal relevance:

• Adam Grant's Give and Take – for relational insights beyond work.
• Bob Sutton's books – for broader lessons on organizational and personal effectiveness.

• Robert Cialdini's Influence – for understanding human behavior in both professional and personal contexts.

• Her selections highlight that business literature often offers universal lessons applicable beyond work.

59:48 Where to Find Rebecca * The book is available at all major bookstores. * Website: rebeccahinds.com * LinkedIn: Rebecca Hinds

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In this episode, I'm joined by Mandy Mooney — author, corporate communicator, and performer — for a wide-ranging conversation about mentorship, career growth, and how to show up authentically in both work and life.

We talk about her path from performing arts to corporate communications, and how those early experiences shaped the way she approaches relationships, leadership, and personal authenticity. That foundation carries through to her current role as VP of Internal Communications, where she focuses on building connections and fostering resilience across teams.

We explore the three pillars of career success Mandy highlights in her book Corporating: Three Ways to Win at Work — relationships, reputation, and resilience — and how they guide her approach to scaling mentorship and helping others grow. Mandy shares practical strategies for balancing professional responsibilities with personal passions, and why embracing technology thoughtfully can enhance, not replace, human connection.

The conversation also touches on parenting, building independence in children, and the lessons she's learned about optimism, preparation, and persistence — both in the workplace and at home.

If you're interested in scaling mentorship, developing your career with intention, or navigating work with authenticity, this episode is for you. And if you want to hear more on these topics, catch Mandy speaking at Snafu Conference 2026 on March 5th.

00:00 Start 02:26 Teaching Self-Belief and Independence * Robin notes Mandy has young kids and a diverse career (performing arts → VP of a name-brand company → writing books). * Robin asks: "What are the skills that you want your children to develop, to stay resilient in the world and the world of work that they're gonna grow up in?" Emphasis on meta-skills. * Mandy's response: Core skills + She loves the question, didn't expect it, finds it a "thrilling ride."

• Observes Robin tends to "put things out there before they exist" (e.g., talking about having children before actually having them).
• Skill 1: Envisioning possibilities
• "Envision the end, believe that it will happen and it is much more likely to happen."

• Teaching children to see limitless possibilities if they believe in them.

• Skill 2: Independence Examples: brushing their own hair, putting on clothes, asking strangers questions.

• One daughter in Girl Scouts: learning sales skills by approaching strangers to sell cookies.

• Independence builds confidence and problem-solving abilities for small and big life challenges.

• Skill 3: Self-belief / Self-worth

• Tied to independence.

• Helps children navigate life and career successfully.

• Robin asks about teaching self-belief

• Context: Mandy's kids are 6 and 9 years old (two girls).

• Mandy's approach to teaching self-belief

• Combination of:

• Words Mandy uses when speaking to them.

• Words encouraged for the children to use about themselves.

• Example of shifting praise from appearance to effort/creativity:

• Instead of "You look so pretty today" → "Wow, I love the creativity that you put into your outfit."

• Reason: "The voice that I use, the words that I choose, they're gonna receive that and internalize it."

• Corrective, supportive language when children doubt themselves:

• Example: Child says, "I'm so stupid, I can't figure out this math problem."

• Mandy responds: "Oh wow. That's something that we can figure out together. And the good news is I know that you are so smart and that you can figure this out, so let's work together to figure it out."

• Asking reflective questions to understand their inner thoughts:

• Example: "What's it like to be you? What's it like to be inside your head?"
• Child's response: "Well, you worry a lot," which Mandy found telling and insightful.
• Emphasizes coming from a place of curiosity to check in on a child's self-worth and self-identity journey.

04:30 Professional Journey and Role of VP of Internal Comms * Robin sets up the question about professional development + Notes Mandy has mentored lots of people. + Wants to understand: - Mandy's role as VP of Internal Communications (what that means). - How she supports others professionally. - How her own professional growth has been supported.

• Context: Robin just finished a workshop for professionals on selling themselves, asking for promotions, and stepping forward in their careers.

• Emphasizes that she doesn't consider herself an expert but learns from conversations with experienced people like Mandy.

• Mandy explains her role and path

• Career path has been "a winding road."
• Did not study internal communications; discovered it later.
• Finds her job fun, though sometimes stressful:

• "I often think I might have the most fun job in the world. I mean, it, it can be stressful and it can't, you know, there are days where you wanna bang your head against the wall, but by and large, I love my job. It is so fun."

• Internal communications responsibility:

• Translate company strategy into something employees understand and are excited about.

• Example: Translate business plan for 2026 to 2,800 employees.

• Team's work includes:

• Internal emails.
• PowerPoints for global town halls.
• Speaking points for leaders.
• Infusing fun into company culture via intranet stories (culture, customers, innovation).

• Quick turnaround on timely stories (example: employee running seven marathons on seven continents; story created within 24 hours).

• Storytelling and theater skills are key:

• Coaching leaders for presentations: hand gestures, voice projection, camera presence.

• Mandy notes shared theater background with Robin: "You and I are both thespian, so we come from theater backgrounds."

• Robin summarizes role

• Sounds like a mix of HR and sales: supporting employee development while "selling" them on the company.

• Mandy elaborates on impact and mentorship

• Loves making a difference in employees' lives by giving information and support. Works closely with HR (Human Resources) to:
• Provide learning and development opportunities. Give feedback.

• Help managers improve.

• Wrote a book to guide navigating internal careers and relationships.

• Mentorship importance:

• Mentors help accelerate careers in any organization.

• Mandy's career journey

• Started studying apparel merchandising at Indiana University (with Kelley School of Business minor).

• Shifted from pre-med → theater → journalism → apparel merchandising.

• Took full advantage of career fairs and recruiter networking at Kelley School of Business.

• "The way that I've gotten jobs is not through applying online, it's through knowing somebody, through having a relationship."

• First role at Gap Inc.: rotational Retail Management Training Program (RMP).

• Some roles enjoyable, some less so; realized she loved the company even if some jobs weren't ideal.

• Mentor influence:

• Met Bobby Stillton, president of Gap Foundation, who inspired her with work empowering women and girls.
• Took a 15-minute conversation with Bobby and got an entry-level communications role.

• Career growth happened through mentorship, internal networking, and alignment with company she loved.

• Advice for her daughters (Robin's question)

• Flash-forward perspective: post-college or early career.
• How to start a career in corporate / large organizations:
• Increase "luck surface area" (exposure to opportunities).
• Network in a savvy way.
• Ask at the right times.

• Build influence to get ahead.

• Mentorship and internal relationships are key, not just applying for jobs online.

12:15 Career Advice and Building Relationships Initial advice:

• "Well first I would say always call your mom. Ask for advice. I'm right here, honey, anytime."
• Three keys to success:

• Relationships

• Expand your network.

• "You say yes to everything, especially early in your career."

• Examples: sit in on meetings, observe special projects, help behind the scenes.

• Benefits:

• Increases credibility. Shows people you can do anything.

• Reputation

• Build a reputation as confident, qualified, and capable.
• Online presence:
• Example: LinkedIn profile—professional, up-to-date, connected to network.

• Be a sponsor/advocate for your company (school, office, etc.). Monthly posts suggested: team photos, events, showing responsibility and trust.

• Offline reputation:

• Deliver results better than expected.

• "Deliver on the things that you said you were gonna do and do a better job than people expected of you."

• Resilience

• Not taught from books—learned through experience.
• Build resilience through preparation, not "fake it till you make it."
• Preparation includes: practicing presentations, thinking through narratives, blocking time before/after to collect thoughts and connect with people.

• "Preparation is my headline … that's part of what creates resilience."

• Mandy turns the question to Robin:

• "I wanna ask you too, I mean, Robin, you, you live and breathe this every day too. What do you think are the keys to success?"

• Robin agrees with preparation as key.

• Value of service work:

• Suggests working in service (food, hospitality) teaches humility. "I've never met somebody I think even ever in my life who is super entitled and profoundly ungrateful, who has worked a service job for any length of time."

• Robin's personal experience with service work:

• First business: selling pumpkins at Robin's Pumpkin Patch (age 5).

• Key formative experience: running Robin's Cafe (2016, opened with no restaurant experience, on three weeks' notice).

• Ran the cafe for 3 years, sold it on Craigslist.
• Served multiple stakeholders: nonprofit, staff (~15 employees), investors ($40,000 raised from family/friends).
• Trial by fire: unprepared first days—no full menu, no recipes, huge rush events.

• Concept of MI Plus: "Everything in its place" as preparation principle.

• Connecting service experience to corporate storytelling:

• Current business: Zandr Media (videos, corporate storytelling).

• Preparation is critical:

• Know who's where, what will be captured, and what the final asset looks like.

• Limited fixes in post-production, even with AI tools.

• Reinforces importance of preparation through repeated experience.

• Advice for future children / young people:

• Robin would encourage service jobs for kids for months or a year.

• Teaches:
• Sleep management, personal presentation, confidence, energy.

• "Deciding that I'm going to show up professionally … well … energetically."

• Emphasizes relentless optimism: positivity is a superpower.

• Experience shows contrast between being prepared and unprepared—learning from both is crucial.

16:36 The Importance of Service Jobs and Resilience * Service jobs as formative experience: + Worked as a waitress early in her career (teenager).

• Describes it as "the hardest job of my life".
• Challenges included:
• Remembering orders (memory).
• Constant multitasking.
• Dealing with different personalities and attitudes.

• Maintaining positivity and optimism through long shifts (e.g., nine-hour shifts).

• Fully agrees with Robin: service jobs teach humility and preparation.

• Optimism as a superpower:
• "I totally agree too that optimism is a superpower. I think optimism is my superpower."
• Writes about this concept in her book.

• Believes everyone has at least one superpower, and successful careers involve identifying and leaning into that superpower.

• Robin asks about the book

• Why did Mandy write the book?
• Inspiration behind the book?

• Also wants a deep dive into the writing process for her own interest.

• Mandy's inspiration and purpose of the book

• Title: "Corporating: Three Ways to Win At Work"

• Primary goal: Scale mentorship.

• Realized as she reached VP level, people wanted career advice.
• Increased visibility through:
• Position as VP.
• Connection with alma mater (Indiana University).

• Active presence on LinkedIn.

• Result: Many young professionals seeking mentorship.

• Challenge: Not sustainable to mentor individually.

• Solution: Writing a book allows her to scale mentorship without minimizing impact.

• Secondary goals / personal motivations:

• Acts as a form of "corporate therapy":
• Reflects on first 10 years of her career.
• Acknowledges both successes and stumbles.
• Helps process trials and tribulations.

• Provides perspective and gratitude for lessons learned.

• Fun aspect: as a writer, enjoyed formatting and condensing experiences into a digestible form for readers.

• Legacy and contribution:

• "I had something that I could contribute meaningfully to the world … as part of my own legacy … I do wanna leave this world feeling like I contributed something positive. So this is one of my marks."

21:37 Writing a Book and Creative Pursuits * Robin asks Mandy about the writing process: + "What's writing been like for you? Just the, the process of distilling your thinking into something permanent."

• Mandy: Writing process and finding the "25th hour"

• Loves writing:

• "I love writing, so the writing has been first and foremost fun."

• Where she wrote the book:

• Mostly from the passenger seat of her car.

• She's a working mom and didn't have traditional writing time.

• Advice from mentor Gary Magenta:

• "Mandy, you're gonna have to find the 25th hour."

• She found that "25th hour" in her car.

• Practical examples:

• During birthday party drop-offs:
• "Oh good. It's a drop off party. Bye. Bye, honey. See you in two hours. I'll be in the driveway. In my car. If you need anything, please don't need anything."

• Would write for 1.5–2 hours.

• During Girl Scouts, swim, any activity.

• On airplanes:
• Finished the book on an eight-hour flight back from Germany.
• It was her 40th birthday (June 28).
• "Okay, I did it."

• Realization moment: "You chip away at it enough that you realize, oh, I have a book."

• Robin: On parents and prioritization

• Parents told him:

• "When you have kids, you just find a way."

• Children create:

• Stricter prioritization.

• A necessary forcing function.

• Mandy's self-reflection:

• "I believe that I am an inherently lazy person, to be totally honest with you."

• But she's driven by deadlines and deliverables.

• Kids eliminate "lazy days":

• No more slow Saturdays watching Netflix.

• "They get up. You get up, you have to feed these people like there's a human relying on you."

• Motherhood forces motivation:

• "My inherent laziness has been completely wiped away the past nine years."

• Writing happened in small windows of time.

• Importance of creative outlet:

• Having something for yourself fuels the rest of life.
• Examples: writing, crocheting, quilting, music.

• Creativity energizes other areas of life.

• Robin mentions The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss.

• Advice from that book:

• Have something outside your day job that fuels you.

• For Robin:

• Physical practice (gym, handstands, gymnastics, ballet, capoeira, surfing).
• It's a place to:
• Celebrate.
• Feel progress.

• Win, even if work is struggling.

• Example:

• If tickets aren't selling.
• If newsletter flops.

• If client relationships are hard.

• Physical training becomes the "anchor win."

• Mandy's writing took over two years.

• Why?

• She got distracted writing a musical version of the book.

• There is now:

• "Corporating: The Book"
• "Corporating: The Musical"
• Three songs produced online.

• Collaboration with composer Eric Chaney.

• Inspiration from book: Time, Talent, Energy (recommended by former boss Sarah Miran).

• Concept: we have limited time, talent, and energy.
• Advice:
• Follow your energy when possible.
• If you're flowing creatively, go with it (unless there's an urgent deadline).

• You'll produce better work.

• She believes:

• The book is better because she created the musical.
• Musical helps during speaking engagements.

• Sometimes she sings during talks.

• Why music?

• Attention spans are short.
• Not just Gen Z — everyone is distracted.
• Music keeps people engaged.

• "I'm not just gonna tell you about the three ways to win at work. I'm gonna sing it for you too."

• Robin on capturing attention

• If you can hold attention of:

• Five-year-olds.
• Thirteen-year-olds.

• You can hold anyone's attention.

• Shares story:

• In Alabama filming for Department of Education.
• Interviewed Alabama Teacher of the Year (Katie).
• She has taught for 20 years (kindergarten through older students).
• Observed:
• High enthusiasm.
• High energy.

• Willingness to be ridiculous to capture attention.

• Key insight:

• Engagement requires energy and presence.

28:37 The Power of Music in Capturing Attention * Mandy's part of a group called Mic Drop Workshop. + Led by Lindsay (last name unclear in transcript) and Jess Tro. + They meet once a month. + Each session focuses on improving a different performance skill.

• The session she describes focused on facial expressions.
• Exercise they did:
• Tell a story with monotone voice and no facial expressions.
• Tell the story "over the top clown like, go really big, something that feels so ridiculous."

• Tell it the way you normally would.

• Result:

• Her group had four people.

• "Every single one of us liked number two better than one or three."

• Why version two worked best:

• When people are emotive and expressive:
• It's more fun to watch.
• It's more entertaining.

• It's more engaging.

• Connection to kids and storytelling:

• Think of how you tell stories to five-year-olds:
• Whisper.
• Get loud.
• Get soft.

• Use dynamic shifts.

• The same applies on stage.

• Musical integration:

• Music is another tool for keeping attention.

• Helps maintain engagement in a distracted world.

• Robin: Hiring for energy and presence

• Talks about hiring his colleague Zach Fish.

• Technical producer for:
• Responsive Conference.
• Snafu Conference.

• Freelancer Robin works with often.

• Why Robin hires Zach:

• Yes, he's technically excellent.
• But more importantly:

• "He's a ball of positive energy and delight and super capable and confident, but also just pleasant to be with."

• Robin's hiring insight:

• If he has a choice, he chooses Zach.
• Why?

• "I feel better."

• Energy and presence influence hiring decisions.

• Zach's background:

• Teaches weekly acrobatics classes for kids in Berkeley.
• He's used to engaging audiences.

• That translates into professional presence.

• Robin: Energy is learnable

• When thinking about:

• Who to hire.
• Who to promote.

• Who to give opportunities to.

• Traits that matter:

• Enthusiasm.
• Positivity.
• Big energy.

• Being "over the top" when needed.

• Important insight:

• This isn't necessarily a God-given gift.
• It can be learned.
• Like music or performance.
• Like anything else.

31:00 The Importance of Positive Work Relationships * Mandy reflects on: + The tension between loud voices and quiet voices. - "Oftentimes the person who is the loudest is the one who gets to talk the most, but the person who's the quietest is the one who maybe has the best ideas."

• Core question:

• How do you exist in a world where both of those things are true?

• Parenting lens:

• One daughter is quieter than the other.

• Important to:

• Encourage authenticity.

• Teach the skill of using your voice loudly when needed.

• It's not about changing personality.

• It's about equipping someone to advocate for themselves when necessary

• Book is targeted at:

• Students about to enter the corporate world.

• Early-career professionals.

• Intentional writing decision:

• Exactly 100 pages.
• Purpose:
• "To the point, practical advice."
• Holds attention.

• Digestible.

• Designed for distracted readers.

• Emotional honesty:
• Excited but nervous to reconnect with students.
• Acknowledges:
• The world has changed.

• It's been a while since she was in college.

• Advice she's trying to live: Know your audience

• Core principle:

• "Get to know your audience. Like really get in there and figure out who they are."

• Pre-book launch tour purpose:

• Visiting universities (including her alma mater).

• Observing students.

• Understanding:

• Their learning environment.
• Their day-to-day experiences.

• The world they're stepping into.

• Communication principle:

• Knowing your audience is essential in communications.

• Also essential in career-building.

• If you have a vision of where you want to go:

• "Try to find a way to get there before you're there."
• Tactics:
• Meet people in those roles.
• Shake their hands.
• Have coffee.
• Sit in those seats.
• Walk those halls.

• See how it feels.

• Idea:

• Test the future before committing to it.

• Reduce uncertainty through proximity.

• What if you don't have a vision?

• Robin pushes back thoughtfully:
• What about people who:
• Don't know what they want to do?
• Aren't sure about staying at a company?

• Aren't sure about career vs. business vs. stay-at-home parent?

• Acknowledges:

• There's abundance in the world.

• Attention is fragmented.

• Implied tension:

• How do you move forward without clarity?

35:13 Mentorship and Career Guidance * How to help someone figure out what's next + Start with questions, not answers - A mentor's primary job: ask questions from a place of curiosity - Especially when someone is struggling with what they want to do or their career direction * Key questions: What brings you joy? What gives you energy? What's the dream? Imagine retirement — what does that look like? + Example: A financial advisor made Mandy and her husband define retirement vision; then work backwards (condo in New Zealand, annual family vacations)

• Clarify what actually matters
• Distinguish life priorities: Security → corporate job; Teamwork → corporate environment; Variety and daily interaction → specific roles
• Mentoring becomes a checklist: Joy, strengths, lifestyle, financial expectations, work environment preferences

• Then make connections: Introduce them to people in relevant environments, encourage informational interviews

• You don't know what you don't know

• Trial and error is inevitable
• Build network intentionally: Shadow people, observe, talk to parents' friends, friends of friends
• Even experienced professionals have untapped opportunities

• Stay curious and do the legwork

• Mixing personal and professional identity

• Confidence to bring personal interests into corporate work comes from strategy plus luck
• Example: Prologis 2021, senior leaders joked about forming a band; Mandy spoke up, became lead singer

• CEO took interest after first performance, supported book launch

• She didn't always feel this way

• Early corporate years: Feel like a "corporate robot," worrying about jargon, meetings, email etiquette, blending in

• Book explores blending in while standing out

• Advice for bringing full self to work

• Don't hide it, but don't force it; weave into casual conversation
• Find advocates: Amazing bosses vs terrible ones, learn from both

• Mentorship shaped her framework: Relationships, reputation, and resilience

• Resilience and rejection

• Theater as rejection bootcamp: Auditions, constant rejection

• Foundations of resilience: Surround yourself with supportive people, develop intrinsic self-worth, know you are worthy

• Creating conditions for success

• Age 11 audition story: Last-minute opportunity, director asked her to sing, she sang and got the part
• Why it worked: Connections (aunt in play), parent support, director willing to take a chance, she showed up
• Resilience is not just toughing it out: Have support systems, build self-worth, seek opportunity, create favorable conditions, step forward when luck opens a door

44:18 Overcoming Rejection and Building Resilience * First show experiences + Robin's first stage production is uncertain; she had to think carefully - At 17, walked into a gymnastics gym after being a cross country runner for ten years, burnt out from running - Cold-called gyms from the Yellow Pages; most rejected her for adult classes, one offered adult classes twice a week - That led to juggling, circus, fencing, capa, rock climbing — a "Cambrian explosion" of movement opportunities - About a year and a half later, walked into a ballet studio in corduroy and a button-up, no ballet shoes; first ballet teacher was Eric Skinner at Reed College, surrounded by former professional ballerinas - First internal college production was his first show; ten years later performed as an acrobat with the San Francisco Opera in 2013, six acrobats among 200 people on stage, four-hour shows with multiple costume changes and backflips

• Relationship to AI and the evolving world of work
• Mandy never asks her daughters "What do you want to be?" because jobs today may not exist in the future
• Focus on interests: plants, how things are built, areas of curiosity for future generations
• Coaching her team: Highly capable, competent, invested in tools and technology for digital signage, webinars, emails, data-driven insights, videos
• Approach AI with cautious optimism: Adopt early, embrace technology, use it to enhance work rather than replace it
• Example: Uses a bot for scheduling efficiency, brainstorming; enhances job performance by integrating AI from day one
• Advice: Approach AI with curiosity, not fear; embrace tools to be smarter and more efficient, stay ahead in careers

53:05 Where to Find Mandy * Mandy will be speaking at Snafu Conference on March 5, discussing rejection and overcoming it. * Author and speaking information: mandymooney.com * LinkedIn: Mandy Mooney * Music available under her real name, Mandy Mooney, on streaming platforms.

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Welcome back to Snafu with Robin P. Zander.

In this episode, I'm doing something a little different: I step into the guest seat for a conversation with one of my good friends, Andrew Bartlow, recorded for the People Leader Accelerator podcast alongside Jessica Yuen.

We dive into storytelling, identity, and leadership — exploring how personal experiences shape professional influence. The conversation begins with a reflection on family and culture, from the Moroccan textiles behind me, made by my mother, to the influence of my father's environmental consulting work. These threads of personal history frame my lifelong fascination with storytelling, persuasion, and coalition-building.

Andrew and Jessica guide the discussion through how storytelling intersects with professional growth. We cover how early experiences — like watching Lawrence of Arabia at a birthday sleepover — sparked curiosity about adventure, influence, and human connection, and how these interests evolved into a career focused on organizational storytelling and leadership.

We explore practical frameworks, including my four-part story model (Setup → Change → Turning → Resolution) and the power of "twists" to create momentum and memorability. The episode also touches on authentic messaging, the role of vulnerability in leadership, and why practicing storytelling in everyday life—outside high-stakes moments—builds confidence and executive presence over time.

Listeners will hear lessons from a lifetime of diverse experiences: running a café in the Mission District, collaborating with BJ Fogg on behavioral change, building Zander Media, and applying storytelling to align teams and organizations. We also discuss how authenticity and personal perspective remain a competitive advantage in an age of AI-generated content.

If you're curious about how storytelling, practice, and presence intersect with leadership, persuasion, and influence, this episode is for you. And for more insights on human connection, organizational alignment, and the future of work, check out Snafu, my weekly newsletter on sales, persuasion, and storytelling here, and Responsive Conference, where we explore leadership, work, and organizational design here.

Start (0:00) Storytelling & Identity * Robin introduces Moroccan textiles behind him + Made by his mother, longtime practicing artist + Connects to Moroccan fiancée → double meaning of personal and cultural

• Reflection on family influence
• Father: environmental consulting firm
• Mother: artist

• Robin sees himself between their careers

• Early Fascination with Storytelling

• Childhood obsession with Morocco and Lawrence of Arabia
• Watched 4-hour movie at age 6–7
• Fascinated by adventure, camels, storytelling, persuasion

• Early exposure shaped appreciation for coalition-building and influence

• Identity & Names

• Jess shares preference for "Jess" → casual familiarity
• Robin shares professional identity as "Xander"

• Highlights fluidity between personal and professional selves

• Childhood Experiences & Social Context

• Watching Lawrence of Arabia at birthday sleepover

• Friends uninterested → early social friction

• Andrew parallels with daughters and screen preferences

• Childhood experiences influence perception and engagement

• Professional Background & Storytelling Application

• Robin's long involvement with PeopleTech and People Leader Accelerator

• Created PLA website, branding, documented events

• Mixed pursuits: dance, media, café entrepreneurship

• Demonstrates applying skills across domains
• Collaboration with BJ Fogg → behavioral change expertise

Storytelling as Connection and Alignment * Robin: Storytelling pulls from personal domains and makes it relevant to others + Purpose: foster connection → move together in same direction + Executive relevance: coalition building, generating momentum, making the case for alignment

• Andrew: HR focus on connection, relationships, alignment, clarity

• Helps organizations move faster, "grease the wheels" for collaboration

• Robin's Credibility and Experience in Storytelling

• Key principle: practice storytelling more than listening
• Full-time entrepreneur for 15 years
• First business at age 5: selling pumpkins
• Organized neighborhood kids in scarecrow costumes to help sell

• Earned $500 → early lessons in coalition building and persuasion

• Gymnastics and acrobatics: love of movement → performance, discipline

• Café entrepreneurship: Robin's Cafe in Mission District, SF
• Started with 3 weeks' notice to feed conference attendees
• Housed within a dance studio → intersection of dance and behavioral change
• First experience managing full-time employees
• Learned the importance of storytelling for community building and growth

• Realized post-sale missed opportunity: storytelling could have amplified success

• Transition to Professional Storytelling (Zander Media)

• Lessons from cafe → focus on storytelling, messaging, content creation
• Founded Zander Media (2018)
• Distributed small team, specializes in narrative strategy and video production
• Works with venture-backed companies and HR teams to tell stories internally and externally

• Provides reps and depth in organizational storytelling

• Why Storytelling Matters for Organizations

• Connects people, fosters alignment
• Enables faster movement toward shared goals

• Storytelling as a "powerful form of connection"

• What Makes a Good Story

• Robin: frameworks exist, but ultimately humans want:
• Education, entertainment, attention

• Sustained attention (avoid drift to TikTok, distractions)

• Framework examples:

• Hero's Journey (Joseph Campbell) → 17 steps
• Dan Harmon's 8-part structure → simplified version of Hero's Journey
• Robin's preferred model: 4-part story structure (details/examples forthcoming)

The Power of the Twist, and Organizational Storytelling * Robin's Four-Part Story Model + Core idea: stories work best when they follow a simple arc - Setup → Change → Turning (twist/reveal) → Resolution - Goal: not rigid frameworks, but momentum, surprise, payoff

• The "Turning" (Twist) as the Sticky Moment
• Pixar example via Steve Jobs and the iPod Nano
• Setup: Apple's dominance, market context, long build-up
• Choice point:
• Option A: just reveal the product

• Option B (chosen): pause + curiosity

• Turning: the "tiny jeans pocket" question

• Reveal: iPod Nano pulled from the pocket

• Effect: entertainment, disruption, memorability

• Key insight:

• The twist creates pause, delight, and attention

• This moment often determines whether a story is remembered

• Why Flat Stories Fail

• Example (uninspiring):

• "I ran a cafe → wanted more marketing → now I run Xander Media"

• Improved arc with turning:

• Ran a cafe → wanted to do more marketing → sold it on Craigslist → built Xander Media

• Lesson:

• A reveal or risk creates narrative energy

• The Four Parts in Practice

• Setup

• The world as it is (Bilbo in the Shire)

• Change

• Something disrupts the norm (Gandalf arrives)

• Turning

• Twist, reveal, or surprise (the One Ring)

• Resolution

• Payoff and return (Bilbo back to the Shire)

• How to Use This as a Leader

• Don't force stories into frameworks
• Look at stories you already tell

• Identify where a disruption, surprise, or reveal could live

• Coalition-building lens

• Stories should move people into shared momentum

• Excitement → flow → aligned action

• Storytelling Mediums for HR & Organizations

• Employer brand ≠ separate from company brand
• Should be co-owned by HR and marketing

• Brand clarity attracts the right people, repels the wrong ones

• Strong brands are defined by:

• Who they are
• Who they are not

• Who they're for and not for

• HR vs Marketing: The Nuance

• Collaboration works only if:
• HR leads on audience and truth

• Marketing supports execution, not control

• Risk:

• Marketing optimizes for customers, not employees

• HR understands attraction, retention, culture fit

• Storytelling at the Individual Level

• No one is "naturally" good or bad at storytelling

• It's reps, not talent

• Practical advice:

• Know your ~15 core stories (career, company, turning points)
• Practice pauses like a comedian

• Notice when people lean in

• Opinionated Messaging = Effective Messaging

• Internal storytelling should:
• Be clear and opinionated
• Repel as much as it attracts
• Avoid:
• Corporate vanilla

• Saying a lot without saying anything

• Truth + Aspirational Truth

• Marketing and storytelling are a mix of:
• What is actually true

• What the organization is becoming

• Being "30% more honest" builds trust

• Including flaws and tradeoffs

• Example: budget brands, Southwest, Apple's office-first culture

• Why This Works

• Opinions create personality
• Personality creates stickiness
• Stickiness creates memory, alignment, and momentum

Authenticity as the last real advantage * We're flooded with AI-generated content (video, writing, everything) + Humans are extremely good at sensing what feels fake + Inauthenticity is easier to spot than ever

• One of the few remaining advantages:
• Be true to the real story of the person or organization

• Not polished truth — actual truth

• What makes content feel "AI-ish"

• AI can generate volume fast

• Books, posts, stories in minutes

• What it can't replicate:

• Personal specificity
• Why a story matters to you

• What an experience felt like from the inside

• Lived moments

• Running a café

• Growing into leadership

• What lasts:

• Personal story
• lesson learned
• relevance to this reader

• relevance to this relationship

• What content will win long-term

• Vulnerability

• Not oversharing, but real experience

• Personal perspective

• Why this matters to me

• Relevance

• Why it should matter to you

• Outcome

• Entertainment
• Insight

• Shared direction

• The risk of vulnerability (it can backfire)

• Being personal doesn't guarantee buy-in
• Example: inspirational talk → employee openly disagrees
• Emotional deflation

• Self-doubt

• Early leadership lesson:

• You can do your best

• People will still push back

• Leadership at higher levels gets harder, not easier

• Bigger teams → higher stakes
• Better pay
• Benefits

• Real expectations

• First "real" leadership pain points:

• Bad hires
• Mismatched expectations

• Disgruntled exits

• Realization:

• Conflict isn't failure

• It's a sign you've leveled up

• "Mountains beyond mountains"

• Every new level comes with new challenges
• Entrepreneurship
• Executive leadership

• Organizational scale

• Reframe setbacks:

• Not proof you're failing

• Proof you're progressing

• Authenticity at the executive table

• Especially hard for HR leaders
• Often younger
• Often earlier in career

• Often underrepresented

• Anxiety is normal

• The table doesn't feel welcoming

• Strategy:

• Name it
• "This is new for me"

• "I'm still finding my voice"

• Own it

• Ask for feedback

• Speak anyway

• Authenticity ≠ no consequences

• Being honest can carry risk

• Not every organization wants change

• Hard truth:

• You can't change people who don't want to change

• Sometimes the right move is leaving

• Guiding advice:

• Find people who already want what you offer

• Help them move faster

• Vulnerability as a competitive advantage

• Almost any perceived weakness can be reframed
• New
• Nervous

• Different

• When named clearly:

• It builds trust
• It creates permission

• It signals confidence

• Getting better at storytelling (practical)

• It's not talent — it's reps

• Shyness → confidence through practice

• Start small

• Don't test stories when stakes are highest

• Practice specifics

• Your core stories

• Your pitch

• Energy matters

• Enthusiasm is underrated

• Tempo matters

• Pauses
• Slowing down

• Letting moments land

• Executive presence is built

• Incrementally
• Intentionally

Practice, Progress, and Learning That Actually Sticks * Measure growth against yourself, not "the best" + The real comparison isn't to others - It's who you were yesterday

• MrBeast idea:
• If you're not a little uncomfortable looking at your past work

• You're probably not improving fast enough

• Important distinction:

• Discomfort ≠ shame

• Shame isn't a useful motivator

• Progress shows up in hindsight

• Looking back at past work
• "I'd write that differently now"

• Not embarrassment — evidence of growth

• Example:

• Weekly newsletter
• Over time, clearer thinking
• Better writing

• Stronger perspective

• Executive presence is a practice, not a trait

• Storytelling
• Selling
• Persuasion
• Presence
• Core question:
• Are you deliberately practicing?

• Or just repeating the same behaviors?

• Practice doesn't have to happen at work

• Low-stakes environments count
• Family
• Friends

• Everyday conversations

• Example:

• Practicing a new language with a dog
• Safe
• Repetitive

• No pressure

• Life skills = leadership skills

• One of the hardest lessons:

• Stop trying to get people to do what they don't want to do

• Daily practice ground:

• Family dynamics
• Respecting boundaries

• Accepting reality

• These skills transfer directly to work

• Influence
• Communication

• Leadership

• Why practice outside of high-stakes moments

• When pressure is high

• You default to habits

• Practicing in everyday life:

• Builds muscle memory

• Makes high-stakes moments feel familiar

• How to learn (without overengineering it)

• Follow curiosity
• Pick a thread
• A name
• A book

• An idea

• Pull on it

• See where it leads

• Let it branch

• Learning isn't linear

• It's exploratory

• Learning through unexpected sources

• Example:
• Reading a biography
• Leads to understanding an era

• Context creates insight

• The subject matters less than:

• Genuine interest

• Sustained attention

• Career acceleration (simple, not flashy)

• Always keep learning
• Find what pulls you in
• Go deeper
• Press the gas

Where to find Robin * Ongoing work lives in: + Snafu (weekly newsletter on sales, persuasion, and storytelling) - https://joinsnafu.com

• Responsive Conference (future of work, leadership, and org design)
• https://responsiveconference.com

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In this episode, I'm joined by Virginie Raphael — investor, entrepreneur, and philosopher of work — for a wide-ranging conversation about incentives, technology, and how we build systems that scale without losing their humanity.

We talk about her background growing up around her family's flower business, and how those early experiences shaped the way she thinks about labor, value, and operating in the real economy. That foundation carries through to her work as an investor, where she brings an operator's lens to evaluating businesses and ideas.

We explore how incentives quietly shape outcomes across industries, especially in healthcare. Virginie shares why telehealth was a meaningful shift and what needs to change to move beyond one-to-one, supply-constrained models of care.

We also dig into AI, venture capital, and the mistakes founders commonly make today — from hiring sales teams too early to raising too much money too fast. Virginie offers candid advice on pitching investors, why thoughtful cold outreach still works, and how doing real research signals respect and fit.

The conversation closes with a contrarian take on selling: why it's not a numbers game, how focus and pre-qualification drive better outcomes, and why knowing who not to target is just as valuable as finding the right people.

If you're thinking about the future of work, building with intention, or navigating entrepreneurship in an AI-accelerated world, this episode is for you. And for more conversations like this, join us at Snafu Conference 2026 on March 5th, where we'll keep exploring incentives, human skills, and what it really takes to build things that last.

Start (0:00) Reflections on Work, Geography, and AI Adoption * Virginie shares what she's noticing as trends in work and tech adoption: + Geographic focus: she's excited to explore AI adoption outside traditional tech hubs. - Examples: Atlanta, Nashville, Durham, Utah, Colorado, Georgia, North Carolina, parts of the Midwest. - Rationale: businesses in these regions may adopt AI faster due to budgets, urgency, and impatience for tech that doesn't perform. * "There are big corporates, there are middle and small businesses in those geos that have budget that will need the tech… and/or have less patience, I should say, for over-hub technologies that don't work."

• She notes that transitions to transformational technology never happen overnight, which creates opportunities:

• "We always underestimate how much time a transition to making anything that's so transformational… truly ubiquitous… just tends to think that it will happen overnight and it never does."

• Robin adds context from her own experience with Robin's Cafe and San Francisco's Mission District:

• Observed cultural and business momentum tied to geography

• Mentions Hollywood decline and rise of alternative media hubs (Atlanta, Morocco, New Jersey)

• Virginie reflects on COVID's impact on workforce behaviors:

• Opened a "window" to new modes of work and accelerated change:

• "There were many preexisting trends… but I do think that COVID gave a bit of a window into what was possible."

• Emphasis on structural change: workforce shifts require multi-year perspective and infrastructure, not just trends.

Investor, Mission, and Capital Philosophy * Virginie clarifies she is an investor, not a venture capitalist, resisting labels and prestige metrics. + "I don't call myself a venture capitalist… I just say investor." + Focuses on outcomes over categories, investing in solutions that advance the world she wants to see rather than chasing trendy tech sectors. + "The outcome we want to see is everyone having the mode of work that suits them best throughout their lives."

• Portfolio themes:
• Access: helping people discover jobs they wouldn't otherwise know about.
• Retention / support: preventing workforce dropouts, providing appropriate healthcare, childcare, and caregiving support.

• "Anyone anywhere building towards that vision is investible by us."

• Critiques traditional venture capital practices:

• Raising VC money is not inherently a sign of success.
• "Raising from a VC is just not a sign of success. It's a milestone, not the goal."
• Concerned about concentration of capital into a few funds, leaving many founders unsupported.

• "There's a sense… that the work we do commands a lot less power in the world, a lot less effectiveness than holding the capital to hire that labor."

• Emphasizes structural, mission-driven investing over chasing categories:

• Invests in companies that prevent workforce dropouts, expand opportunity, and create equitable access to meaningful work.
• Portfolio strategy is diversified, focusing on infrastructure and long-term impact rather than quick wins.

• "We've tracked over time what type of founders and what type of solutions we attract and it's exactly the type of deal that we want to see."

• Reflects on COVID and societal trends as a lens for her investment thesis:

• "COVID gave a bit of a window into what was possible," highlighting alternative modes of work and talent distribution that are often overlooked.

Labor, Ownership, and Durable Skills * Virginie reframes the concept of labor, wages, and ownership: + "The word labor in and of itself… is something we need to change." + Interested in agency and ownership as investment opportunities, especially for small businesses transitioning to employee ownership. + "For a very long time… there's been a shift towards knowledge work and how those people are compensated. If you go on the blue-collar side… it's about wages still and labor." + Emphasizes proper capitalization and alignment of funds to support meaningful exits for smaller businesses, rather than chasing massive exits that drive the VC zeitgeist. + AI fits into this discussion as part of broader investment considerations.

• Childhood experience in family flower business shaped her entrepreneurial and labor perspective:
• Selling flowers, handling cash, and interacting with customers taught "durable skills" that persisted into adulthood.
• "When I think of labor, I think of literally planting pumpkin plants… pulling espresso shots… bringing a customer behind the counter."
• Observing her father start a business from scratch instilled risk-taking and entrepreneurial spirit.
• "Seeing my dad do this when I was seven… definitely part of that."

• Skills like sales acumen, handling money, and talking to adults were early lessons that translated into professional confidence.

• Non-linear career paths and expanding exposure to opportunity:

• Concerned that students often see only a narrow range of job options:

• "Kids go out of high school, they can think of three jobs, two of which are their parents' jobs… Surely because we do a poor job exposing them to other things."

• Advocates for creating more flexible and exploratory career pathways for young people and adults alike.

• Durable skills and language shaping work:

• Introduction of the term "durable skills" reframes how competencies are understood:

• "I use it all the time now… as a proof point for why we need to change language."

• Highlights the stigma and limitations of words like "soft skills" or "fractional work":

• Fractional roles are high-impact and intentional, not temporary or inferior.
• "Brilliant people who wanna work on a fractional basis… they truly wanna work differently… on a portfolio of things they're particularly good at solving."

• Work in Progress uses language intentionally to shift perceptions and empower people around work.

• Cultural significance of language in understanding work and people:

• Virginie notes that language carries stigma and meaning that shapes opportunities and perception.
• References Louis Thomas's essays as inspiration for attention to the nuance and power of words:

• He'll take the word discipline and distill it into its root, tie it back into the natural world."

• Robin shares a personal anecdote about language and culture:

• "You can always use Google Translate… but also it's somebody learning DIA or trying to learn dharia, which is Moroccan Arabic… because my fiance is Moroccan."

Human-Positive AI, Process, and Apprenticeship * Virginie emphasizes the value of process over pure efficiency, especially in investing and work: + "It's not about the outcome often, it's about the process… there is truly an apprenticeship quality to venture and investing." + Using AI to accelerate tasks like investment memos is possible, but the human learning and iterative discussion is critical: - "There's some beauty in that inefficiency, that I think we ought not to lose."

• AI should augment human work rather than replace the nuanced judgment, particularly in roles requiring creativity, judgment, and relationship-building:
• "No individual should be in a job that's either unsafe or totally boring or a hundred percent automatable."
• Introduces the term "human-positive AI" to highlight tools that enhance human potential rather than simply automate tasks:

• "How do we use it to truly augment the work that we do and augment the people?"

• Project selection and learning as a metric of value:

• Virginie evaluates opportunities not just on outcome, but what she will learn and who she becomes by doing the work:
• "If this project were to fail, what would I still learn? What would I still get out of it?"
• Cites examples like running a one-day SNAFU conference to engage people in human-centered selling principles:
• "Who do I become as a result of doing that is always been much more important to me than the concrete outcomes of this thing going well."

AI Bubble, Transition, and Opportunity * Discusses the current AI landscape and the comparison to past tech bubbles: + "I think we're in an AI bubble… 1999 was a tech bubble and Amazon grew out of it." + Differentiates between speculative hype and foundational technological transformation: - "It is fundamental. It is foundational. It is transformative. There's no question about that."

• Highlights the lag between technological introduction and widespread adoption:

• "There's always a pendulum swing… it takes time for massively transformative technology to fully integrate."

• AI as an enabler, not a replacement:

• Transition periods create opportunity for investment and human-positive augmentation.
• Examples from healthcare illustrate AI's potential when applied correctly:

• "We need other people to care for other people. Should we leverage AI so the doctor doesn't have to face away from the patient taking notes? Yes, ambient scribing is wonderful."

• Emphasizes building AI around real human use cases and avoiding over-automation:

• "What are the true use cases for it that make a ton of sense versus the ones we need to stay away from?"

• History and parallels with autonomous vehicles illustrate the delay between hype and full implementation:

• Lyft/Uber example: companies predicted autonomous vehicles as cost drivers; the transition opened up gig work:

• "I was a gig worker long before that was a term… the conversation around benefits and portability is still ongoing."

• AI will similarly require time to stabilize and integrate into workflows while creating new jobs.

Bias, Structural Challenges, and Real-World AI Experiments * Discusses the importance of addressing systemic bias in AI and tech: + Shares the LinkedIn "#WearThePants" experiment: women altered gender identifiers to measure algorithmic reach: - "They changed their picture, in some cases changed their names… and got much more massive reach."

• Demonstrates that AI can perpetuate structural biases baked into systems and historical behavior:

• "It's not just about building AI that's unbiased; it's about understanding what the algorithm might learn from centuries of entrenched behavior."

• Highlights the ongoing challenge of designing AI to avoid reinforcing existing inequities:

• "Now you understand the deeply structural ingrained issues we need to solve to not continue to compound what is already massively problematic."

Parenting, Durable Skills, and Resilience * Focus on instilling adaptability and problem-solving in children: + "I refuse to problem solve for them. If they forget their homework, they figure it out, they email the teacher, they apologize the next day. I don't care. I don't help them." + Emphasizes allowing children to navigate consequences themselves to build independence: - "If he forgets his flute, he forgets his flute. I am not making the extra trip to school to bring him his flute."

• Everyday activities are opportunities to cultivate soft skills and confidence:

• "I let them order themselves at the restaurant… they need to look the waiter in the eye and order themselves… you need to speak more clearly or speak loudly."

• Cultural context and exposure shape learning:

• Practices like family meals without devices help children appreciate attention, respect, and communication:

• "No iPad or iPhone on our table… we sit properly, enjoy a meal together, and talk about things."

• Travel and cultural exposure are part of teaching adaptability and perspective:

• "We spent some time in France over the summer… the mindset they get from that is that meals matter, and people operate differently."

• Respecting individuality while fostering independence:

• "They are their own people and you need to respect that and step away… give them the ability to figure out who they are and what they like to do."

• Parenting as a balance of guidance and autonomy:

• "Feel like that was a handbook that you just offered for parenting or for management? Either one. Nobody prepares you for that… part of figuring out."

Future of Work and Technology Horizons * Timeframes for predicting trends: + Focus on a 5-year horizon as a middle ground between short-term unpredictability and long-term uncertainty: - "Five years feels like this middle zone that I'm kind of guessing in the haze, but I can kind of see some odd shapes."

• Short-term (6–18 months) is more precise; long-term (10–15 years) is harder to anticipate:

• "I'm a breezy investor. Six months at a time max… deal making between two people still matters in 18 months."

• Identifying emerging technologies with latent potential:

• Invests in technologies that are ready for massive impact but haven't yet had a "moment":

• "I like to look at technologies that have yet to have a moment… the combo of VR and AI is prime."

• Example: Skill Maker, a VR+AI training platform for auto technicians, addressing both a labor shortage and outdated certification processes:

• "We are short 650,000 auto technicians… if you can train a technician closer to a month or two versus two years, I promise you the auto shops are all over you."

• Focuses on alignment of incentives, business model innovation, and meaningful outcomes:

• "You train people faster, even expert technicians can benefit… earn more money… right, not as meaningful to them and not as profitable otherwise."

• Principles guiding technology and investment choices:

• Solving enduring problems rather than temporary fads:

• "What is a problem that is still not going to go away within the next 10–15 years?"

• Ensuring impact at scale while creating economic and personal value for participants:

• "Can make a huge difference in the lives of 650,000 people who would then have good paying jobs."

Scaling, Incentives, and Opportunity * Re-examining traditional practices and identifying opportunities for change: + "If you've done a very specific thing the exact same way, at some point, that's prime to change." + Telehealth is an example: while helpful for remote access, it hasn't fundamentally created capacity: - "You're still in that one-to-one patient's relationship and an hour of your time with a provider is still an hour at a time."

• Next version of telehealth should aim to scale care beyond individual constraints:

• "Where do we take telehealth next… what is the next version of that that enables you to truly scale and change?"

• Incentives shape outcomes:

• "Thinking through that and all the incentives… if I were to change the incentives, then people would behave differently? The answer very often is yes, indeed."
• Paraphrasing Charlie Munger:
• "Look for the incentives and I can tell you the outcome."

Founders, Pitching, and Common Mistakes * Pet peeves in founder pitches: + Lack of research and generic outreach is a major turn-off: - "I can really quickly tell if you have indeed spent a fraction of a minute on my site… dear sir, automatic junk. I won't even read the thing."

• Well-crafted, thoughtful cold inbound pitches get attention:

• "Take some time. A well crafted cold inbound will get my attention… you don't need to figure out an intro."

• Big mistakes entrepreneurs make:

• Hiring too early, especially in sales:

• "Until you have a playbook, like don't hire a sales team… if you don't have about a million in revenue, you're probably not ready."

• Raising too much capital too quickly:

• "You get into that, you're just gonna spend a lot more time fundraising than you are building a company."

• Comparing oneself to others:

• "You don't know if it's true… there's always a backstory… that overnight success was 15 years in the making."

Sales Strategy and Non-Sales Selling * Approach is contrarian: focus on conversion, not volume: + "It is not a numbers game. I think it's a conversion game… I would much rather spend more time with a narrower set of targets and drive better conversion." + Understanding fit is key: - "You gotta find your people… and just finding who is not or should not be on your list is equally valuable."

• Recognizes that each fund and business is unique, so a tailored approach is essential:
• "The pitch is better when I'm talking to the quote unquote right people in the right place about the right things."

Where to Find Virginie and Her Work * Resources for listeners: * Full Circle Fund: fullcirclefund.io * Work in Progress: workinprogress.io * LinkedIn: Virginie Raphael

Where to Access Snafu * Go to joinsnafu.com and sign up for free.

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Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander.

In this episode, I'm joined by Jeff Jaworsky, who shares his journey from a global role at Google to running his own business while prioritizing time with his children.

We talk about the pivotal life and career decisions that shaped this transition, focusing on the importance of setting boundaries—both personally and professionally. Jeff shares insights on leaving a structured corporate world for entrepreneurship and the lessons learned along the way.

We also explore the evolving landscape of sales and entrepreneurship, highlighting how integrating human connection and coaching skills is more important than ever in a tech-driven world. The conversation touches on the role of AI and technology, emphasizing how they can support—but not replace—essential human relationships.

Jeff offers practical advice for coaches and salespeople on leveraging their natural skills and hints at a potential future book exploring the intersection of leadership, coaching, and sales.

If you're curious about what's next for thoughtful leadership, entrepreneurship, and balancing work with life, this episode is for you. And for more conversations like this, get your tickets for Snafu Conference 2026 on March 5th here, where we'll continue exploring human connection, business, and the evolving role of AI.

Start (0:00) Early life and first real boundary * Jeff grew up up in a structured, linear environment + Decisions largely made for you + Clear expectations, predictable paths

• Post–high school as the first inflection point
• College chosen because it's "what you're supposed to do"

• Dream: ESPN sports anchor (explicit role model: Stuart Scott)

• Reality check through research

• Job placement rate: ~3%
• First moment of asking:
• Is this the best use of my time?

• Is this fair to the people investing in me (parents)?

• Boundary lesson #1

• Letting go of a dream doesn't mean failure
• Boundaries can be about honesty, not limitation

• Choosing logic over fantasy can unlock unexpected paths

• Dropping out of college → accidental entry into sales

• Working frontline sales at Best Buy while in school

• Selling computers, service plans, handling customers daily

• Decision to leave college opens capacity

• Manager notices and offers leadership opportunity
• Takes on home office department
• Largest sales category in the store

• Youngest supervisor in the company (globally) at 19

• Early leadership challenges

• Managing people much older
• Navigating credibility, age bias, exclusion

• Learning influence without authority

• Boundary insight

• Temporary decisions can become formative

• Saying "yes" doesn't mean you're locked in forever

• Second boundary: success without sustainability

• Rapid growth at Best Buy
• Promotions

• Increasing responsibility

• Observing manager life up close

• 60-hour weeks
• No real breaks

• Lunch from vending machines

• Internal checkpoint

• Is this the life I want long-term?
• Distinguishing:
• Liking the work

• Disliking the cost

• Boundary lesson #2

• You can love a craft and still reject the lifestyle around it

• Boundaries protect the future version of you

• Returning to school with intention

• Decision to go back to college
• This time with clarity

• Sales and marketing degree by design, not default

• Accelerated path

• Graduates in three years

• Clear goal: catch up, not start over

• Internship at J. Walter Thompson

• Entry into agency world

• Launch of long-term sales and marketing career

• Pattern recognition: how boundaries actually work

• Ongoing self-check at every stage
• Have I learned what I came here to learn?
• Am I still growing?

• Is this experience still stretching me?

• Boundaries as timing, not rejection

• Experiences "run their course"

• Leaving doesn't invalidate what came before

• Non-linear growth

• Sometimes stepping down is strategic
• Demotion → education

• Senior role → frontline role (later at Google)

• Downward moves that enable a bigger climb later

• Shared reflection with Robin

• Sales as a foundational skill
• Comparable to:
• Surfing (handling forces bigger than you)

• Early exposure to asking, pitching, rejection

• Best Buy reframed

• Customer service under pressure
• Handling frustrated, misinformed, emotional people

• Humility + persuasion + resilience

• Parallel experiences

• Robin selling a restaurant after learning everything she could
• Knowing the next step (expansion) and choosing not to take it

• Walking away without knowing what's next

• Core philosophy: learning vs. maintaining

• "If I'm not learning, I'm dying"

• Builder mindset, not maintainer

• Growth as a non-negotiable

• Career decisions guided by curiosity, not status

• Titles are temporary

• Skills compound

• Ladders vs. experience stacks

• Rejecting the myth of linear progression

• Valuing breadth, depth, and contrast

• The bridge metaphor

• Advice for people stuck between "not this" and "not sure what next"
• Don't leap blindly

• Build a bridge

• Bridge components

• Low-risk experiments
• Skill development

• Small tests in parallel with current work

• Benefits

• Reduces panic
• Increases clarity
• Turns uncertainty into movement

Framing the modern career question * Referencing the "jungle gym, not a ladder" idea + Careers as lateral, diagonal, looping — not linear + Growth through range, not just depth

• Connecting to Range and creative longevity
• Diverse experiences as a competitive advantage

• Late bloomers as evidence that exploration compounds

• Naming the real fear beneath the metaphor

• What if exploration turns into repeated failure?
• What if the next five moves don't work?

• Risk of confusing experimentation with instability

• Adding today's pressure cooker

• Economic uncertainty
• AI and automation reshaping work faster than previous generations experienced

• The tension between adaptability and survival

• The core dilemma

• How do you pursue a non-linear path without tumbling back to zero?
• How do you "build the bridge" instead of jumping blindly?

• How do you keep earning while evolving?

• The two-year rule

• Treating commitments like a contract with yourself
• Two years as a meaningful unit of time
• Long enough to:
• Learn deeply
• Be challenged

• Experience failure and recovery

• Short enough to avoid stagnation

• Boundaries around optional exits

• Emergency ripcord exists

• But default posture is commitment, not escape

• Psychological benefit

• Reduces panic during hard moments
• Prevents constant second-guessing

• Encourages depth over novelty chasing

• The 18-month check-in

• Using the final stretch strategically
• Asking:
• Am I still learning?
• Am I still challenged?

• Does this align with my principles?

• Shifting from execution to reflection

• Early exploration of "what's next"
• Identifying gaps:
• Skills to acquire

• Experiences to test

• Regaining control

• External forces aren't always controllable

• Internal planning always is

• Why most people get stuck

• Planning too late
• Waiting until:
• Layoffs
• Burnout

• Forced transitions

• Trying to design the future in crisis

• Limited creativity

• Fear-based decisions

• Contrast with proactive planning

• Calm thinking
• Optionality

• Leverage

• Extending the contract

• Recognizing unfinished business
• Loving the work
• Still growing

• Still contributing meaningfully

• One-year extensions as intentional choices

• Not inertia
• Not fear

• Conscious recommitment

• A long career, one organization at a time

• Example: nearly 13 years at Google
• Six different roles

• Multiple reinventions inside one company

• Pattern over prestige

• Frontline sales
• Sales leadership

• Enablement

• Roles as chapters, not identities

• Staying while growing

• Leaving only when growth plateaus

• Experience stacking over ladder climbing

• Rejecting linear advancement

• Titles matter less than skills

• Accumulating perspective

• Execution
• Leadership

• Systems

• Transferable insight

• What works with customers
• What works internally

• What scales

• Sales enablement as an example of bridge-building

• Transition motivated by impact
• Desire to help at scale

• Supporting many sellers, not just personal results

• A natural evolution, not a pivot

• Built on prior sales experience

• Expanded influence

• Bridge logic in action

• Skills reused
• Scope widened

• Risk managed

• Zooming out: sales, stigma, and parenting

• Introducing the next lens: children

• Three boys: 13, 10, 7

• Confronting sales stereotypes

• Slimy
• Manipulative

• Self-serving

• Tension between reputation and reality

• Loving sales
• Building a career around it

• Teaching it without replicating the worst versions

• Redefining sales as a helping profession

• Sales as service
• Primary orientation: benefit to the other person

• Compensation as a byproduct, not the driver

• Ethical center

• Believe in what you're recommending
• Stand behind its value

• Sleep well regardless of outcome

• Losses reframed

• Most deals don't close
• Failure as feedback

• Integrity as the constant

• Selling to kids (and being sold by them)

• Acknowledging reality
• Everyone sells, constantly

• Titles don't matter

• Teaching ethos, not tactics

• How you persuade matters more than whether you win
• Kindness
• Thoughtfulness

• Awareness of the other side

• Everyday negotiations

• Bedtime extensions
• Appeals to age, fairness, peer behavior

• Sales wins without good reasoning

• Learning opportunity

• Success ≠ good process

• Boundaries still matter

• Why sales gets a bad reputation

• Root cause: selfishness
• Focus on "what I get"

• Language centered on personal gain

• Misaligned value exchange

• Overselling

• Underdelivering

• The alternative

• Lead with value for the other side
• Hold mutual benefit in the background

• Make the exchange explicit and fair

• Boundaries as protection for both sides

• Clear scope
• What's included

• What's not

• Saying no as a service

• Preventing resentment

• Preserving trust

• Entrepreneurial lens

• Boundaries become essential
• Scope creep erodes value
• Clarity sustains long-term relationships

Value exchange, scope, and boundaries * Every request starts with discernment, not enthusiasm + What value am I actually providing? + What problem am I solving? + How much time, energy, and attention will this really take?

• The goal isn't just a "yes"
• Both sides need to feel good about:
• What's being given
• What's being received
• What's being expected

• What's realistically deliverable

• Sales as a two-sided coin

• Mutual benefit matters
• Overselling creates future resentment

• Promising "the moon and the stars" is how trust breaks later

• Boundaries as self-respect

• Clear limits protect delivery quality
• Good boundaries prevent repeating bad sales dynamics

• Saying less upfront often enables better outcomes long-term

• Transitioning into coaching and the SNAFU Conference

• Context for the work today
• Speaking at the inaugural SNAFU Conference

• Focused on reluctant salespeople and non-sales roles

• Why coaching became the next chapter

• Sales is everywhere, regardless of title

• Coaching emerged as a natural extension of sales leadership

• The origin story at Google

• Transition from sales leadership to enablement
• Core question: how do we help sellers have better conversations?
• Result: building Google's global sales coaching program
• Grounded in practice and feedback

• Designed to prepare for high-stakes conversations

• The hidden overlap between sales and coaching

• Coaching as an underutilized advantage

• Especially powerful for sales leaders

• Shared core skills

• Deep curiosity
• Active listening
• Presence in conversation

• Reflecting back what's heard, not what you assume

• The co-creation mindset

• Not leading someone to your solution

• Guiding toward their desired outcome

• Why this changes everything

• Coaching improves leadership effectiveness
• Coaching improves sales outcomes

• Coaching reshapes how decisions get made

• A personal inflection point: learning to listen

• Feedback that lingered

• "Jeff is often the first and last to speak in meetings"

• The realization

• Seniority amplified his voice

• Being directive wasn't the same as being effective

• The shift

• Stop being the first to speak
• Invite more voices

• Lead with curiosity, not certainty

• The result

• More evolved perspectives
• Better decisions

• Sometimes realizing he was simply wrong

• The parallel to sales

• Talking at customers limits discovery
• Pre-built pitch decks obscure real needs

• The "right widget" only emerges through listening

• What the work looks like today

• A synthesis of experiences
• Buyer
• Seller
• Sales leader
• Enablement leader

• Executive coach

• How that shows up in practice

• Executive coaching for sales and revenue leaders
• Supporting decision-making

• Developing more coach-like leadership styles

• Workshops and trainings

• Helping managers coach more effectively

• Building durable sales skills

• Advisory work

• Supporting sales and enablement organizations at scale

• The motivation behind the shift

• Returning to the core questions:
• Am I learning?
• Am I growing?

• Am I challenged?

• A pull toward broader impact

• A desire to test whether this work could scale beyond one company

• Why some practices thrive and others stall

• Observing the difference
• Similar credentials
• Similar training

• Radically different outcomes

• The uncomfortable truth

• The difference is sales

• Entrepreneurship without romance

• Businesses don't "arrive" on their own
• Clients don't magically appear

• Visibility, rejection, iteration are unavoidable

• Core requirements

• Clear brand
• Defined ICP
• Articulated value

• Credibility to support the claim

• Debunking "overnight success"

• Success is cumulative
• Built on years of unseen experience

• Agency life + Google made entrepreneurship possible

• Sales as a universal survival skill

• Especially now
• Crowded markets
• Economic uncertainty

• Increased competition

• Sales isn't manipulation

• It's how value moves through the world

• Avoiding the unpersuadable

• Find people who already want what you offer

• Make it easier for them to say yes

• For those who "don't want to sell"

• Either learn it
• Or intentionally outsource it

• But you can't pretend it doesn't exist

• The vision board and the decision to leap

• December 18, 2023
• 45th birthday

• Chosen as a forcing function

• Purpose of the date

• Accountability, not destiny

• A moment to decide: stay or go

• Milestones on the back

• Coaching certification
• Experience thresholds

• Personal readiness

• Listening to the inner signal

• The repeated message: "It's time"

• The bridge was already built

• Skills stacked
• Experience earned

• Risk understood

• Stepping forward without full certainty

• You never know what's on the other side
• You only learn once you cross and look around

Decision-making and vision boards * Avoid forcing yourself to meet arbitrary deadlines + Even if a date is set for accountability (e.g., a 45th birthday milestone), the real question is: When am I ready to act? + Sometimes waiting isn't necessary; acting sooner can make sense

• Boundaries tie directly into these decisions
• They help you align personal priorities with professional moves

• Recognizing what matters most guides the "when" and "how" of major transitions

• Boundaries in the leap from corporate to entrepreneurship

• Biggest boundary: family and presence with children
• Managing a global team meant constant connectivity and messages across time zones

• Transitioning to your own business allowed more control over work hours, clients, and priorities

• The pro/con framework reinforced the choice

• Written lists can clarify trade-offs

• For this example, the deciding factor was: "They get their dad back"

• Boundaries in entrepreneurship are intertwined with opportunity

• More freedom comes with more responsibility

• You can choose your hours, clients, and areas of focus—but still must deliver results

• Preparing children for a rapidly changing world

• Skill priorities extend beyond AI and automation

• Technology literacy is essential, but kids will likely adapt faster than adults

• Focus on human skills

• Building networks
• Establishing credibility

• Navigating relationships and complex decisions

• Sales-related skills apply

• Curiosity, empathy, observation, and problem-solving help them adapt to change

• These skills are timeless, even as roles and tools evolve

• Human skills in an AI-driven world

• AI is additive, not replacement
• Leverage AI to complement work, not fear it

• Understand what AI does well and where human judgment is irreplaceable

• Coaching and other human-centered skills remain critical

• Lived experience, storytelling, and nuanced judgment cannot be fully replaced by AI

• Technology enables scale but doesn't replace complex human insight

• The SNAFU Conference embodies this principle

• Brings humans together to share experiences and learn

• Demonstrates that face-to-face interaction, stories, and mutual learning remain valuable

• Advice for coaches learning to sell

• Coaches already possess critical sales skills
• Curiosity, active listening, presence, problem identification, co-creating solutions

• These skills, when applied to sales, still fall within a helping profession

• Key approach

• Use your coaching skills to generate business ethically

• Reframe sales as an extension of support, not self-interest

• For salespeople

• Learn coaching skills to improve customer conversations

• Coaching strengthens empathy, listening, and problem-solving abilities, all core to effective selling

• Book and resource recommendations

• Non-classical sales books
• Setting the Table by Danny Meyer → emphasizes culture and service as a form of sales

• Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara → creating value through care for people

• Coaching-focused books

• Self as Coach, Self as Leader by Pam McLean

• Resources from the Hudson Institute of Coaching

• Gap in sales literature

• Few resources fully integrate coaching with sales
• Potential upcoming book: The Power of Coaching and Sales

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Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander.

In this episode, I'm joined by Melissa Painter, founder of Breakthru – a platform bringing movement, mindfulness, and behavior change into workplaces around the world.

We talk about how Melissa uses movement as a tool to improve focus, resilience, and well-being, and how her background in dance and creative movement informs her approach to human performance. We explore the science and art of helping people move more, think better, and feel more connected to their work and each other.

Melissa shares how she designs short, immersive experiences for employees, what it takes to change workplace culture, and why small, intentional shifts in movement can unlock big changes in thinking and performance.

We also dive into the intersection of creativity, neuroscience, and technology, and how thoughtful, human-centered design can make work feel more alive and meaningful.

If you're curious about how movement, mindfulness, and behavior change can transform your work and life, this episode is for you. And for more conversations like this, stay tuned for Responsive Conference 2026, where we'll be continuing the dialogue on human connection, creativity, and thriving in the modern workplace.

I'm so glad and honored to have Melissa joining us in this talk. If you're interested in her work, take a look at Breakthru – you can try it and share it with your team here: Take your first Breakthru! https://breakthru.me/

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Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander.

In this episode, I'm joined by Kevan Lee and Shannon Deep, co-founders of Bonfire – a creative studio reimagining what it means to build brands, tell stories, and live meaningful lives.

We talk about how Bonfire began as a "Trojan horse" – a branding agency on the surface, but really a vehicle for deeper questions: What does fulfilling work look like? How do we find meaning beyond our careers? And how can business become a space for honesty, connection, and growth?

Kevan and Shannon share how their partnership formed, what it takes to build trust as co-founders, and how vulnerability and self-awareness fuel their collaboration. We explore their path from tech and theater to building Bonfire, hosting creative retreats, and helping founders tell more authentic stories.

We also dive into how AI is changing storytelling, the myth of "broetry" on LinkedIn, and why transparency is the future of marketing.

If you're curious about what's next for creativity, leadership, and meaningful work, this episode is for you. And for more conversations like this, stay tuned for Responsive Conference 2026, where we'll be continuing the dialogue on human connection, business, and the evolving role of AI.

Start (0:00) How Bonfire Started (14:25) * Robin notes how transparent and intentional they've been building their business and community + Says Bonfire feels like a 21st-century agency – creative, human, and not traditional - Invites them to describe what they're building and their vision for it

• Kevan's response:
• Admits he feels imposter syndrome around being called an "entrepreneur"

• Laughs that it's technically true but still feels strange

• Describes Bonfire as partly a traditional branding agency

• They work with early-stage startups

• Help with brand strategy, positioning, messaging, and differentiation.

• But says the heart of their work is much deeper

• "We create spaces for people to explore what a fulfilling life looks like – one that includes work, but isn't defined by it."

• Their own careers inspired this – jobs that paid well but felt empty, or jobs that felt good but didn't pay the bills

• Bonfire became their way to build something more meaningful

• A space to have these conversations themselves
• And to invite others into it
• This includes community, retreats, and nontraditional formats

• Jokes that the agency side is a Trojan horse – a vehicle to fund the work they truly care about

• Shannon adds:

• They're agnostic about what Bonfire "does"
• Could be a branding agency, publishing house, even an ice cream shop

• "Money is just gas in the engine."

• The larger goal is creating spaces for people to explore their relationship to work

• Especially for those in transition, searching for meaning, or redefining success

• Robin reflects on their unusual path

• Notes most marketers who start agencies chase awards and fame

• But Shannon and Kevan built Bonfire around what they wished existed

• Recalls their past experiences

• Kevan's path from running a publication (later sold to Vox) to Buffer and then Oyster

• Shannon's shared time with him at Oyster

• Mentions their recent milestone – Bonfire's first live retreat in France

• 13 participants, including them
• Held in a rented castle
• For a two-year-old business, he calls it ambitious and impressive

• Asks: "How did it go? What did people get out of it?"

• Shannon on the retreat

• Laughs that they're still processing what it was
• They had a vibe in mind – but not a fixed structure
• One participant described it as "a wellness retreat for marketers"

• Not wrong – but also not quite right

• Attendees came from tech and non-tech backgrounds

• The focus: exploring people's most meaningful relationship to work

• Who you are when you're not at your desk

• How to bring that awareness back to real life — beyond castles and catered meals

• People came at it from different angles

• Some felt misaligned with their work
• Others were looking for something new

• Everyone was at a crossroads in their career

• Kevan on the space they built

• The retreat encouraged radical honesty
• People shared things like:
• "I have this job because I crave approval."
• "I care about money as a status symbol."

• "I hate what I do, but I don't know what else I'd be good at."

• They didn't force vulnerability, but wanted to make it safe if people chose it

• They thought deeply about values – what needed to be true for that kind of trust
• Personally, Kevan says the experience shifted his identity
• From "marketer" to something else – maybe "producer," maybe "creator"
• The retreat made him realize how many paths are possible

• "Now I just want to do more of this."

• Robin notes there are "so many threads to pull on"

• Brings up family business and partnerships
• Shares his own experience growing up in his dad's small business
• Talks about lessons from Robin's Cafe and the challenges of partnerships

• Says he's fascinated by co-founder dynamics – both powerful and tricky

• Asks how Shannon and Kevan's working relationship works

• What it was like at Oyster
• Why they decided to start Bonfire together

• And how it's evolved after the retreat

• Kevan on their beginnings

• He hired Shannon at Oyster – she was Editorial Director, he was SVP of Marketing

• Worked together for about a year and a half

• Knew early on that something clicked

• Shared values
• Similar worldview
• Trusted each other

• When Oyster ended, partnering up felt natural – "Let's figure out what's next, together."

• Robin observes their groundedness

• Says they both seem stable and mature, which likely helps the partnership

• Jokes about his own chaos running Robin's Café – late nights, leftover wine, cold quinoa

• Asks Shannon directly: "Do you still follow Kevan's lead?"

• Shannon's laughs and agrees they're both very regulated people

• But adds that it comes from learned coping mechanisms

• Says they've both developed pro-social ways to handle stress

• People-pleasing
• Overachievement
• Perfectionism

• Intellectualizing feelings instead of expressing them

• "Those are coping mechanisms too," she notes, "but at least they keep us calm when we talk."

Building Trust and Partnership (14:54–23:15) * Shannon says both she and Kevan have done deep personal work. + Therapy, reflection, and self-inquiry are part of their toolkit. + That helps them handle a relationship that's both intimate and challenging. - They know their own baggage. - They try not to take the other person's reactions personally. - It doesn't always work—but they trust they'll work through conflict.

• When they started Bonfire:
• They agreed the business world is unpredictable.
• So they made a pinky swear:
• Friends first, business second.

• The friendship is the real priority.

• When conflict comes up, they ask: "Is this really life or death—or are we just forgetting what matters?"

• Shannon goes back to the question and clarifies

• Says they lead in different ways.
• Each has their "zone of genius."
• They depend on each other's strengths.

• It's not leader and follower – it's mutual reliance.

• Shannon explains:

• Kevan's great at momentum:

• He moves things forward and ships projects fast.

• Shannon tends to be more perfectionist:

• Wants things to be fully formed before releasing.

• Kevan adds they talk often about "rally and rest."

• Kevan rallies, he thrives on pressure and urgency.
• Shannon rests, she values slowing down and reflection.

• Together, that creates a healthy rhythm.

• Robin notes lingering habits

• Wonders if any "hangovers" from their Oyster days remain.
• Kevan reflects

• At first, he hesitated to show weakness.

• Coming from a manager role, vulnerability felt risky.

• Shannon quickly saw through it.

• He realized openness was essential, not optional.

• Says their friendship and business both rely on honesty.

• Robin agrees and says he wouldn't discourage co-founders—it's just a big decision.

• Like choosing a spouse, it shapes your life for years.
• Notes he's never met with one of them without the other.
• "That says something," he adds.
• Their partnership clearly works—even if it takes twice the time.

Rethinking Marketing (23:19) * Kevan's light moment: + Asks if Robin's comment about their teamwork was feedback for them.

• Robin's observation
• Notes how in sync Shannon and Kevan are.
• Emails one, gets a reply CC'd with the other.
• Says the tempo of Bonfire feels like their collaboration itself.

• Wonders what that rhythm feels like internally.

• Kevan's response

• Says it's partly intentional, partly habit.

• They genuinely enjoy working together.

• Adds they don't chase traditional agency milestones.

• No interest in Ad Age lists or Cannes awards.

• Their goal: have fun and make meaningful work.

• Robin pivots to the state of marketing (24:04)

• Mentions the shift from Madison Avenue's glory days to today's tech-driven world.
• Refers to Mad Men and the "growth at all costs" startup era.

• Notes how AI and tech are changing how people see their role in work and life.

• Kevan's background

• Came from startups, not agencies.
• Learned through doing, not an MBA.
• Immersed in books like Hypergrowth and Traction.

• Took Reforge courses—knows the mechanics of scaling.

• Before that, worked as a journalist.

• Gained curiosity and calm under pressure, but also urgency.

• Admits startup life taught him both good and bad habits.

• Robin notes

• Neither lives the Madison Avenue life.
• Kevan's in Boise.

• Shannon's in France.

• Shannon's background

• Started in theater – behind the scenes as a dramaturg and producer.

• Learned how to shape emotion and tell stories.

• Transitioned into brand strategy in New York.

• Worked at a top agency, Siegel+Gale.
• Helped global B2B and B2C clients define mission, values, and design.

• Competed with big names like Interbrand and Pentagram.

• Later moved in-house at tech startups.

• Saw how B2B marketing often tries to "act cool" like B2C.
• Learned to translate creative ideas into language that convinces CFOs.

• Says her role often meant selling authentic storytelling to risk-averse execs.

• Admits she joined marketing out of necessity.

• "I was 27, broke in New York, and needed a parking spot for my storytelling skills."

• Robin connects the dots

• Notes how Silicon Valley's "growth" culture mirrors old ad-world burnout.
• Growth at all costs.

• Not much room for creative autonomy.

• Adds most big agencies are now owned by holding companies.

• The original Madison Avenue independence is nearly gone.

• Robin's reflection

• Mentions how AI-generated content is changing video and storytelling.
• Grateful his clients still value human connection.

• Asks how Bonfire helps brands tell authentic stories now that the old model is fading.

• Kevan's take

• Says people now care less about "moments" and more about audiences.
• It's not about one viral hit—it's about building consistency.
• Brands need to stand for something, and keep showing up.

• People want that outcome, even if they don't want the hard work behind it.

• Shannon adds

• Notes rising skepticism among audiences.
• Most content people see isn't from who they follow, it's ads and algorithms.

• Consumers are subconsciously filtering out the noise.

• Says that's why human storytelling matters more than ever.

• People crave knowing a real person is behind the message.

• AI can mimic tone but not authenticity.

• Adds it's hard to convince some clients of that.

• Authentic work isn't fast or easily measured.
• It requires belief in the process and a value system to match.

• That's tough when your client's investors only want quick returns.

• Robin agrees

• "Look at people's incentives and I'll tell you who they are."

• Shannon continues

• Wonders where their responsibility ends.
• Should they convince people of their values?

• Or just do the work and let the right clients come?

• Kevan says they've found a sweet spot with current clients.

• Mostly bootstrapped founders.

• Work with them long-term instead of one-off projects.

• Says that's the recipe that fits Bonfire's values and actually works.

The Quarter Analogy (35:36) * Robin quotes BJ Fogg: + "Don't try to persuade people of your worldview. Look for people who already want what you can teach, and just show them how." + He compares arguing with people who don't align to "an acrobat arguing with gravity – gravity will win 100% of the time." - The key: harness momentum instead of fighting resistance. Even a small, aligned audience is better than chasing everyone.

• Kevan shares Bonfire's failed experiment with outbound sales:
• They tried reaching out to recently funded AI companies.

• "It got us nowhere," he admits.

• That experience reminded him how much old startup habits – growth at all costs, scale fast – still shape thinking.

• "I thought success meant getting as big as possible, as fast as possible. That meant doing outbound, even if it felt inauthentic."
• But that mindset just added pressure.

• Realizing there were other ways to grow – slower, more intentional – was a relief.

• Now they've stopped outbound entirely.

• Focused instead on aligned clients who find them naturally.

• Robin connects it to a MrBeast quote.

• "If I'm not ashamed of the video I put out last week, I'm not growing fast enough."
• He says he doesn't love the "shame" part but relates to the evolution mindset –
• Looking back at work from six months ago and thinking, I'd do that differently now.

• Growth as a visible, measurable journey.

• Robin shifts to storytelling frameworks:

• Mentions Kevan and Shannon's analogies about storytelling and asks about "the quarter analogy."

• Kevan explains the "quarter" story:

• A professor holds up two quarters: "Sell me the one on the right."
• No one can – until someone says, "I'll dip it in Marilyn Monroe's purse."

• That coin now has emotional and cultural value.

• Marketing can be the same – alchemy that turns something ordinary into something meaningful.

• Robin builds on that:

• You can tell stories about a coin's history – "Lincoln touched it," etc.
• But Kevan's version is different: adding new meaning in the present.

• "How do you imbue something with value now that makes it matter later?"

• Shannon's take:

• It's about values and belonging.
• "Every story implicitly says: believe this."

• That belief also says: we don't believe that – defining who's in your tribe.

• Humans crave that – community, validation, connection.

• That belonging is intangible but real.

• "Try selling that to a CFO who just wants ROI. Impossible — but it's real."

• Kevan adds:

• Values are one piece – authenticity is another.
• Some brands already have a genuine story; others want to create one.

• "We get asked to dip AI companies into Marilyn Monroe's purse," he jokes.

• The real work is uncovering what's true or helping brands rediscover it.

• The challenge: telling that story consistently and believably.

• Robin mentions Shannon's storytelling framework of three parts –

• Purpose → Story frameworks → Touch points.

• Shannon breaks it down:

• Clients usually come in with half-baked "mission" or "vision" statements.
• She uses Ogilvy's "Big Ideal" model:
• Combine a cultural tension (what's happening in the world) with your brand's best self.
• Then fill in the blank:

• "We believe the world would be a better place if…"

• That single sentence surfaces a company's "why us" and "why now."

• It's dramaturgy, really — same question as in theater:

• "Why this play now?"

• "Why us?"

• Bonfire's own version (in progress):

• "We believe the world would be a better place if people and brands had more room to explore their creativity."

• Kevan adds: it's evolving, like them.

• Robin relates it back to his own story:

• After selling Robin's Café, he started Zander Media to tell human stories.
• He wanted to document real connections — "the barista-customer relationships, the neighborhood changing."
• That became his north star: storytelling as a tool for change and human connection.

• "I don't care about video," he says. "I care about storytelling, helping people become more of who they want to be."

• Kevan closes the loop:

• A good purpose statement is expansive.
• It can hold video, podcasts, even a publishing house.
• "Maybe tomorrow it's something else. That's the beauty — it allows room to grow."

Against the Broetry (49:01) * Kevan reflects on transparency and values at Bonfire + He and Robin came from Buffer, a company known for radical transparency — posting salaries, growth numbers, everything. + Says that while Bonfire isn't as extreme about it, the spirit is the same. - "It just comes naturally to invite people in." - Their openness isn't a tactic – it's aligned with their values and mission.

• They want to create space for people to explore – new ideas, new ways of working, more fulfilling lives.
• Sharing their journey publicly felt like the obvious, authentic thing to do.

• "It wasn't even a conversation – just who we are."

• Shannon jumps in with a critique of business culture online

• Says there's so much terrible advice about "how to build a business."
• Compliments Robin for cutting through the noise – being honest through Snafu and his newsletter.

• "You're trying to be real about what selling feels like and what it says about you."

• Calls out the "rise and grind" nonsense dominating LinkedIn:

• "Wake up at 4 a.m., protein shake at 4:10, three-hour workout…"

• Robin laughs – "I'll take the three-hour workout, but I'll pass on the protein shake."

• Shannon and Kevan call it "broetry"

• The overblown, performative business storytelling on social media.

• "I went on my honeymoon and here's what I learned about B2B sales."

• Their goal with building in public is the opposite:

• To admit mistakes.
• To share pivots and moments of doubt.

• To remind people that everyone is figuring it out.

• "But the system rewards the opposite – gatekeeping, pretending, keeping up the facade."

• Shannon says she has "no patience for it."

• She traces that belief back to a story from college
• Producer Paula Wagner once told her class:

• "Here's the secret: nobody knows anything."

• That line stuck with her.

• Gave her permission to question authority.

• To show up confidently even when others pretend to know more.

• After years of watching powerful men "fail upward," she realized:

• "The emperor has no clothes."

• So she might as well take up space too.

• Transparency, for her, is a form of connection and courage –

• "When people raise their eyes from their desks and actually meet each other, that's power."

• Robin thanks Shannon for the kind words about Snafu.

• Says their work naturally attracts people who want that kind of realness.
• Then pivots to a closing question:

• "If you had one piece of advice for founders – about storytelling or business building – what would it be?"

• Kevan's advice:

• "Look beyond what's around you."
• Inspiration doesn't have to come from your industry.
• Learn from other fields, other stories, other worlds.

• It builds curiosity, empathy, and creativity.

• Robin sums it up: "Get out of your silos."

• Shannon's advice:

• "Make the thing you actually want to see."
• Too many founders copy what's trendy or "smart."

• Ask instead: What would I genuinely love to consume?

• Remember your audience is human, like you.

• And remember, building a business is a privilege.
• You get to create a small world that reflects your values.

• You get to hire people, pay them, shape a culture.

• "That's so cool, and it should make you feel powerful."

• With that power comes responsibility.
• "Everyone says it's about making the most money. But what if the goal was to make the coolest world possible, for as many people as possible?"

Where to find Kevan and Shannon (57:16) * Points listeners to aroundthebonfire.com/experiences. + That's where they host their retreats. + Next one is April 2026. + "We'd love to see you there."

Companies/Organizations * Bonfire * Buffer * Oyster * Vox * Zander Media * Siegel+Gale * Interbrand * Pentagram * Reforge * Robin's Café

Books / Frameworks / Theories * Traction * BJ Fogg's behavioral model * Ogilvy's "Big Ideal" * Purpose → Story Frameworks → Touch Point

People * Paula Wagner * BJ Fogg * MrBeast (Jimmy Donaldson) * David Ogilvy

Newsletters * Snafu * Kevan's previous publication

View Details

Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander.

In this episode, I'm joined by Miki Johnson – coach, facilitator, and co-founder of Job Portraits, a creative studio that helped companies tell honest stories about their work and culture.

Today, Miki leads Leading By Example, where she supports leaders and teams through moments of change – whether that's a career shift, new parenthood, or redefining purpose. We talk about how to navigate transition with awareness, why enjoying change takes practice, and what it means to lead with authenticity in uncertain times.

Miki shares lessons from a decade of coaching and storytelling – from building human-centered workplaces to bringing more body and emotion into leadership. We also explore creativity in the age of AI, and how technology can either deepen or disconnect us from what makes us human.

And if you're interested in these kinds of conversations, we'll be diving even deeper into the intersection of leadership, creativity, and AI at Responsive Conference 2026.

If you're interested, get your tickets here! https://www.responsiveconference.com/

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00:00 Start 01:20 Miki's Background and Reservations about AI * Miki hasn't used AI and has "very serious reservations." + She's not anti-AI – just cautious and curious. + Her mindset is about "holding paradox", believing two opposing things can both be true.

• Her background shapes that approach.
• She started as a journalist, later ran her own businesses, and now works as a leadership coach.
• Early in her career, she watched digital technology upend media and photography – industries "blown apart" by change.
• When she joined a 2008 startup building editable websites for photographers, it was exciting but also unsettling.

• She saw innovation create progress and loss at the same time.

• Now in her 40s with two sons, her focus has shifted.

• She worries less about the tools and more about what they do to people's attention, empathy, and connection – and even democracy.

• Her concern is how to raise kids and stay human in a distracted world.

• Robin shares her concerns but takes a different approach.

• He notes that change now happens "day to day," not decade to decade.
• He looks at technology through systems, questioning whether pre-internet institutions can survive.

• "Maybe the Constitution was revolutionary," he says, "but it's out of date for the world we live in."

• He calls himself a "relentless optimist," believing in democracy and adaptability, but aware both could fail without reform.

• Both worry deeply about what technology is doing to kids.

• Robin cites The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt and says, "I don't believe social media is good for children."
• He and his fiancée plan to limit their kids' screen time, just as Miki already does.

• They see it as a responsibility: raising grounded kids in a digital world.

• Robin sees AI as even more transformative – and risky – than anything before.

• "If social media is bigger than the printing press," he says, "AI is bigger than the wheel."
• He's amazed by its potential but uneasy about who controls it.
• He doubts people like Sam Altman act in the public's best interest.

• His concern isn't about rejecting AI but about questioning who holds power over it.

• Their difference lies in how they handle uncertainty.

• Miki's instinct is restraint and reflection – question first, act later, protect empathy and connection.
• Robin's instinct is engagement with vigilance – learn, adapt, and reform systems rather than retreat.
• Miki focuses on the human and emotional.

• Robin focuses on the structural and systemic.

• Both agree technology is moving faster than people can process or regulate.

• Miki uses curiosity to slow down and stay human.
• Robin uses curiosity to move forward and adapt.
• Together, they represent two sides of the same challenge: protecting what's most human while building what's next.

10:05 Navigating the Tech Landscape * Miki starts by describing how her perspective has been shaped by living in two very different worlds. + She spent over a decade in the Bay Area, surrounded by tech and startups. + She later moved back to her small hometown of Athens, Ohio—a progressive college town surrounded by more rural areas. - She calls it "a very small Austin", a blue dot in a red state. - She loves it there and feels lucky to have returned home.

• Robin interrupts briefly to highlight her background.
• He reminds listeners that Miki and her husband, Jackson, co-founded an employer branding agency called Job Portraits in 2014, the same year they got married.
• Over eight years, they grew it to around 15 full-time employees and 20 steady contractors.
• They worked with major startups like DoorDash, Instacart, and Eventbrite when those companies were still small—under 200 employees.
• Before that, they had started another venture in Chicago during Uber's early expansion beyond San Francisco.

• Their co-working space was right next to Uber's local team setting up drivers, giving them a front-row seat to the tech boom.

• Robin points out that Miki isn't coming at this topic as a "layperson."

• She deeply understands technology, startups, and how they affect people.

• Miki continues, explaining how that background informs how she sees AI adoption today.

• Her Bay Area friends are all-in on AI.
• Many have used it since its earliest days—because it's part of their jobs, or because they're building it themselves.

• Others are executives leading companies developing AI tools.

• She's been watching it unfold closely for years, even if she hasn't used it herself.

• From her position outside the tech bubble now, she can see two clear camps:
• Those immersed in AI, excited and moving fast.

• And those outside that world—more cautious, questioning what it means for real people and communities.

• Living between those worlds—the fast-paced tech culture and her slower, more grounded hometown—gives her a unique vantage point.

• She's connected enough to understand the innovation but distant enough to see its costs and consequences.

16:39 The Cost of AI Adoption * Miki points out how strange it feels to people in tech that she hasn't used AI. + In her Bay Area circles, the idea is almost unthinkable. + Miki understands why it's shocking. - It's mostly circumstance—her coaching work doesn't require AI. - Unlike consultants who "all tell leaders how to use AI," her work is based on real conversations, not digital tools. - Her husband, Jackson, also works at a "zero-technology" K–12 school he helped create, so they both exist in rare, tech-free spaces. * She admits that's partly luck, not moral superiority, just "tiny pockets of the economy" where avoiding AI is still possible.

• Robin responds with his own story about adopting new tools.
• He recalls running Robin's Café from 2016 to 2019, when most restaurants still used paper timesheets.
• He connected with two young founders who digitized timesheets, turning a simple idea into a company that later sold to a global conglomerate.
• By the time he sold his café, those founders had retired in their 20s.

• "I could still run a restaurant on paper," he says, "but why would I, if digital is faster and easier?"

• He draws a parallel between tools over time—handwriting, typing, dictation.

• Each serves a purpose, but he still thinks best when writing by hand, then typing, then dictating.

• The point: progress adds options, not replacements.

• Miki distills his point: if a tool makes life easier, why not use it?

• Robin agrees, and uses his own writing practice as an example.
• He writes a 1,000-word weekly newsletter called Snafu.
• Every word is his, but he uses AI as an editor—to polish, not to create.

• He says, "I like how I think more clearly when I write regularly."

• For him, writing is both communication and cognition—AI just helps him iterate faster.

• It's like having an instant editor instead of waiting a week for human feedback.

• He reminds his AI tools, "Don't write for me. Just help me think and improve."

• When Miki asks why he's never had an editor, he explains that he has—but editors are expensive and slow.

• AI gives quick, affordable feedback when a human editor isn't available.

• Miki listens and reflects on the trade-offs.

• "These are the cost-benefit decisions we all make," she says—small, constant choices about convenience and control.
• What unsettles her is how fast AI pushes that balance.
• She sees it as part of a long arc—from the printing press to now—but AI feels like an acceleration.

• It's "such a powerful technology moving so fast" that it's blowing the cover off how society adapts to change.

• Robin agrees: "It's just the latest version of the same story, since writing on cave walls."

20:10 The Future of Human-AI Relationships * Miki talks about the logical traps we've all started accepting over time. + One of the biggest, she says, is believing that if something is cheaper, faster, or easier – it's automatically better. + She pushes further: just because something is more efficient doesn't mean it's better than work. + There are things you gain from working with humans that no machine can replicate, no matter how cheap or convenient it becomes. + But we rarely stop to consider the real cost of trading that away.

• Miki says the reason we overlook those costs is capitalism.
• She's quick to clarify – she's not one of those people calling late-stage capitalism pure evil.
• Robin chimes in: "It's the best of a bunch of bad systems."
• Miki agrees, but says capitalism still pushes a dangerous idea:
• It wants humans to behave like machines—predictable, tireless, cheap, and mistake-free.
• And over time, people have adapted to that pressure, becoming more mechanical just to survive within it.
• Now we've created a tool—AI—that might actually embody those machine-like ideals.
• Whether or not it reaches full human equivalence, it's close enough to expose something uncomfortable:

• We've built a human substitute that eliminates everything messy, emotional, and unpredictable about being human.

• Robin takes it a step further, saying half-jokingly that if humanity lasts long enough, our grandchildren might date robots.

• "Two generations from now," he says, "is it socially acceptable—maybe even expected—that people have robot spouses?"

• He points out it's already starting—people are forming attachments to ChatGPT and similar AIs.

• Miki agrees, noting that it's already common for people under 25 to say they've had meaningful interactions with AI companions.

• Over 20% of them, she estimates, have already experienced this.
• That number will only grow.
• And yet, she says, we talk about these changes as if they're inevitable—like we don't have a choice.
• That's what frustrates her most:
• The narrative that AI "has to" take over—that it's unstoppable and universal—isn't natural evolution.
• It's a story deliberately crafted by those who build and profit from it.

• "Jackson's been reading the Hacker News comments for 15 years," she adds, hinting at how deep and intentional those narratives run in the tech world.

• She pauses to explain what Hacker News is for anyone unfamiliar.

• It's one of the few online forums that's still thoughtful and well-curated.

• Miki says most people there are the ones who've been running and shaping the tech world for years—engineers, founders, product leaders.

• And if you've followed those conversations, she says, it's obvious that the people developing AI knew there would be pushback.

• "Because when you really stop and think about it," she says, "it's kind of gross."

• The technology is designed to replace humans—and eventually, to replace their jobs.

• And yet, almost no one is seriously talking about what happens when that becomes real.

• "I'm sorry," she says, "but there's just something in me that says—dating a robot is bad for humanity. What is wrong with us?"

• Robin agrees.

• "I don't disagree," he says. "It's just… different from human."

• Miki admits she wrestles with that tension.

• "Every part of me says, don't call it bad or wrong—we have to make space for difference."

• But still, something in her can't shake the feeling that this isn't progress—it's disconnection.

• Robin expands on that thought, saying he's not particularly religious, but he does see humanity as sacred.

• "There's something fundamental about the human soul," he says.
• He gives examples: he has metal in his ankle from an old injury; some of his family members are alive only because of medical devices.
• Technology, in that sense, can extend or support human life.
• But the idea of replacing or merging humans with machines—of being subsumed by them—feels wrong.

• "It's not a world I want to live in," he says plainly.

• He adds that maybe future generations will think differently.

• "Maybe our grandkids will look at us and say, 'Okay boomer—you never used AI.'"

24:14 Practical Applications of AI in Daily Life * Robin shares a story about a house he and his fiancée almost bought—one that had a redwood tree cut down just 10 feet from the foundation. + The garage foundation was cracked, the chimney tilted—it was clear something was wrong. + He'd already talked to arborists and contractors, but none could give a clear answer. + So he turned to ChatGPT's Deep Research—a premium feature that allows for in-depth, multi-source research across the web. - He paid $200 a month for unlimited access. - Ran 15 deep research queries simultaneously. - Generated about 250 pages of analysis on redwood tree roots and their long-term impact on foundations. * He learned that if the roots are alive, they can keep growing and push the soil upward. * If they're dead, they decompose, absorb and release water seasonally, and cause the soil to expand and contract. * Over time, that movement creates air pockets under the house—tiny voids that could collapse during an earthquake.

• None of this, Robin says, came from any contractor, realtor, or arborist.

• "Even they said I'd have to dig out the roots to know for sure," he recalls.

• Ultimately, they decided not to buy that house—entirely because of the data he got from ChatGPT.

• "To protect myself," he says, "I want to use the tools I have."
• He compares it to using a laser level before buying a home in earthquake country: "If I'll use that, why not use AI to explore what I don't know?"

• He even compares Deep Research to flipping through Encyclopedia Britannica as a kid—hours spent reading about dinosaurs "for no reason other than curiosity."

• Robin continues, saying it's not that AI will replace humans—it's that people who use AI will replace those who don't.

• He references economist Tyler Cowen's Average Is Over (2012), which described how chess evolved in the early 2000s.
• Back then, computers couldn't beat elite players on their own—but a human + computer team could beat both humans and machines alone.

• "The best chess today," Robin says, "is played by a human and computer together."

• "There are a dozen directions I could go from there," Miki says.

• But one idea stands out to her:
• We're going to have to choose, more and more often, between knowledge and relationships.
• What Robin did—turning to Deep Research—was choosing knowledge.
• Getting the right answer.
• Having more information.
• Making the smarter decision.

• But that comes at the cost of human connection.

• "I'm willing to bet," she says, "that all the information you found came from humans originally."

• Meaning: there were people who could have told him that—just not in that format.
• Her broader point: the more we optimize for efficiency and knowledge, the less we may rely on each other.

32:26 Choosing Relationships Over AI * Robin points out that everything he learned from ChatGPT originally came from people. + Miki agrees, but says her work is really about getting comfortable with uncertainty. - She helps people build a relationship with the unknown instead of trying to control it. - She mentions Robin's recent talk with author Simone Stolzoff, who's writing How to Not Know—a book she can't wait to read.

• She connects it to a bigger idea: how deeply we've inherited the Enlightenment mindset.
• "We're living at the height of 'I think, therefore I am,'" she says.

• If that's your worldview, then of course AI feels natural. It fits the logic that more data and more knowledge are always better.

• But she's uneasy about what that mindset costs us.

• She worries about what's happening to human connection.

• "It's all connected," she says—our isolation, mental health struggles, political polarization, even how we treat the planet.

• Every time we choose AI over another person, she sees it as part of that drift away from relationship.

• "I get why people use it," she adds. "Capitalism doesn't leave most people much of a choice."
• Still, she says, "Each time we pick AI over a human, that's a decision about the kind of world we're creating."

• Her choice is simple: "I'm choosing relationships."

• Robin gently pushes back.

• "I think that's a false dichotomy," he says.
• He just hosted Responsive Conference—250 people gathered for human connection.

• "That's why I do this podcast," he adds. "To sit down with people and talk, deeply."

• He gives a personal example.

• When he bought his home, he spoke with hundreds of people—plumbers, electricians, roofers.
• "I'm the biggest advocate for human conversations," he says.

• "So why not both? Why not use AI and connect with people?"

• To him, the real question is about how we use technology consciously.

• "If we stopped using AI because it's not human," he asks,
• "should we stop using computers because handwriting is more authentic?"

• "Should we reject the printing press because it's not handwritten?"

• He's not advocating blind use—he's asking for mindful coexistence.

• It's also personal for him.

• His company relies on AI tools—from Adobe to video production.

• "AI is baked into everything we do," he says.
• And he and his fiancée—a data scientist—often talk about what that means for their future family.

• "How do we raise kids in a world where screens and AI are everywhere?"

• Then he asks her directly: "What do you tell your clients? Treat me like one—how do you help people navigate this tension?"

• Miki smiles and shakes her head.

• "I don't tell people what to do," she says. "I'm not an advisor, I'm a coach."
• Her work is about helping people trust their own intuition.

• "Even when what they believe is contrarian," she adds.

• She admits she's still learning herself.

• "My whole stance is: I don't know. I don't know. I don't know."

• She and her husband, Jackson, live by the idea of strong opinions, loosely held.

• She stays open—lets new conversations change her mind.
• "And they do," she says. "Every talk like this shifts me a little."

• She keeps seeking those exchanges—with parents, tech workers, friends—because everyone's trying to figure out the same thing:

• How do we live well with technology, without losing what makes us human?

37:16 The Amish Approach to Technology * Miki reflects on how engineers are both building and being replaced by AI. + She wants to understand the technology from every angle—how it works, how it affects people, and what choices it leaves us with. - What worries her is the sense of inevitability around AI—especially in places like the Bay Area. - "It's like no one's even met someone who doesn't use it," she says. * She knows it's embedded everywhere—Google searches, chatbots, everything online. * But she doesn't use AI tools directly or build with them herself. + "I don't even know the right terminology," she admits with a laugh.

• Robin points out that every Google search now uses an LLM.
• Miki nods, saying her point isn't denial—it's about choice.
• "You can make different decisions," she says.
• She admits she hasn't studied it deeply but brings up an analogy that helps her think about tech differently: the Amish.

• "I call myself kind of 'AI Amish,'" she jokes.

• She explains her understanding of how the Amish handle new technology.

• They're not anti-tech; they're selective.
• They test and evaluate new tools to see if they align with their community's values.
• "They ask, does it build connection or not?"

• They don't just reject things—they integrate what fits.

• In her area of Ohio, she's seen Amish people now using electric bikes.

• "That's new since I was a kid," she says.

• It helps them connect more with each other without harming the environment.

• They've also used solar power for years.

• It lets them stay energy independent without relying on outside systems that clash with their values.

• Robin agrees—it's thoughtful, not oppositional.

• "They're intentional about what strengthens community," he says.
• Miki continues:
• What frustrates her is how AI's creators have spent the last decade building a narrative of inevitability.

• "They knew there would be resistance," she says, "so they started saying, 'It's just going to happen. Your jobs won't be taken by AI—they'll be taken by people who use it better than you.'"

• She finds that manipulative and misleading.

• Robin pushes back gently.

• "That's partly true—but only for now," he says.

• He compares it to Uber and Lyft: at first, new jobs seemed to appear, but eventually drivers started being replaced by self-driving cars.

• Miki agrees.

• "Exactly. First it's people using AI, then it's AI replacing people," she says.
• What disturbs her most is the blind trust people put in companies driven by profit.
• "They've proven over and over that's their motive," she says.

• "Why believe their story about what's coming next?"

• She's empathetic, though—she knows why people don't push back.

• "We're stressed, broke, exhausted," she says.
• "Our nervous systems are fried 24/7—especially under this administration."

• "It's hard to think critically when you're just trying to survive."

• And when everyone around you uses AI, it starts to feel mandatory.

• "People tell me, 'Yeah, I know it's a problem—but I have to. Otherwise I'll lose my job.'"
• "Or, 'I'd have bought the wrong house if I didn't use it.'"

• That "I have to" mindset, she says, is what scares her most.

• Robin relates with his own example.

• "That's how I felt with TikTok," he says.
• He got hooked early on, staying up until 3 a.m. scrolling.
• After a few weeks, he deleted the app and never went back.
• "I probably lose some business by not being there," he admits.

• "But I'd rather protect my focus and my sanity."

• He admits he couldn't find a way to stay on the platform without it consuming him.

• "I wasn't able to build a system that removed me from that platform while still using that platform."

• But he feels differently about other tools.

• For example, LinkedIn has been essential—especially for communicating with Responsive Conference attendees.

• "It was our primary method of communication for 2025," he says.

• So he tries to choose "the lesser of two evils."

• "TikTok's bad for my brain," he says. "I'm not using it."
• "But with LLMs, it's different."
• When researching houses, he didn't feel forced into using them to "keep up."

• To him, they're just another resource.

• "If encyclopedias are available, use them. If Wikipedia's available, use both. And if LLMs can help, use all three."

41:45 The Pressure to Conform to Technology * Miki challenges that logic. + "When was the last time you opened an encyclopedia?" + Robin pauses. "Seven years ago." + Miki laughs. "Exactly. It's a nice idea that we'll use all the tools—but humans don't actually do that." - We gravitate toward what's easiest. * "If you check eBay, there are hundreds of encyclopedia sets for sale," she says. "No one's using them."

• Robin agrees but takes the idea in a new direction.
• "Sure—but just because something's easy doesn't mean it's good," he says.
• He compares it to food:
• "It's easier to eat at McDonald's than cook at home," he says.
• But easy choices often lead to long-term problems.

• He mentions obesity in the U.S. as a cautionary parallel.

• Some things are valuable because they're hard.

• "Getting in my cold plunge every morning isn't easy," he says. "That's why I do it."

• "Exercise never gets easy either—but that's the point."

• He adds a personal note:

• "I grew up in the mountains. I love being at elevation, off-grid, away from electricity."
• He could bring Starlink when he travels, but he chooses not to.
• Still, he's not trying to live as a total hermit.
• "I don't want to live 12 months a year at 10,000 feet with a wood stove and no one around."

• "There's a balance."

• Miki nods, "I think this is where we need to start separating what we can handle versus what kids can."

• "We're privileged adults with fully formed brains," she points out.

• "But it's different for children growing up inside this system."

• Robin agrees and shifts the focus.

• Even though you don't give advice professionally," he says, "I'll ask you to give it personally."

• "You're raising kids in what might be the hardest time we've ever seen. What are you actually practicing at home?"

45:30 Raising Children in a Tech-Driven World * Robin reflects on how education has shifted since their grandparents' time + Mentions "Alpha Schools" — where - AI helps kids learn basic skills fast (reading, writing, math) - Human coaches spend the rest of the time building life skills

• Says this model makes sense:
• Memorizing times tables isn't useful anymore

• He only learned to love math because his dad taught him algebra personally — acted like a coach

• Asks Miki what she thinks about AI and kids — and what advice she'd give him as a future parent

• Miki's first response — humility and boundaries

• "First off, I never want to give parents advice."

• Everyone's doing their best with limited info and energy

• Her kids are still young — not yet at the "phone or social media" stage

• So she doesn't pretend to have all the answers

• Her personal wish vs. what's realistic

• Ideal world:
• She wishes there were a global law banning kids from using AI or social media until age 18
• Thinks it would genuinely be better for humanity
• References The Anxious Generation
• Says there's growing causal evidence, not just correlation, linking social media to mental health issues
• Mentions its impact on children's nervous systems and worldview

• It wires them for defense rather than discovery

• Real world:

• One parent can't fight this alone — it's a collective action problem
• You need communities of parents who agree on shared rules
• Example: schools that commit to being zero-technology zones
• Parents and kids agree on:
• What ages tech is allowed
• Time limits

• Common standards

• Practical ideas they're exploring

• Families turning back to landlines
• Miki says they got one recently
• Not an actual landline — they use a SIM adapter and an old rotary phone

• Kids use it to call grandparents

• Her partner Jackson is working on a bigger vision:

• Building a city around a school

• Goal: design entire communities that share thoughtful tech boundaries

• Robin relates it to his own childhood

• Points out the same collective issue — "my nephews are preteens"
• It's one thing for parents to limit screen time

• But if every other kid has access, that limit won't hold

• Shares his own experience:

• No TV or video games growing up
• So he just went to neighbors' houses to play — human nature finds a way

• Says individual family decisions don't solve the broader problem

• Miki agrees — and expands the concern

• Says the real issue is what kids aren't learning
• Their generation had "practice time" in real-world social interactions
• Learned what jokes land and which ones hurt
• Learned how to disagree, apologize, or flirt respectfully

• Learned by trial and error — through millions of small moments

• With social media and AI replacing those interactions:

• Kids lose those chances entirely
• Results she's seeing:
• More kids isolating themselves
• Many afraid to take social or emotional risks

• Fewer kids dating or engaging in real-life relationships

• Analogy — why AI can stunt development

• "Using AI to write essays," she says,
• "is like taking a forklift to the gym."

• Sure, you lift more weight — but you're not getting stronger

• Warns this is already visible in workplaces:

• Companies laying off junior engineers

• AI handles the entry-level work

• But in 5 years, there'll be no trained juniors left to replace seniors

• Concludes that where AI goes next "is anybody's guess" — but it must be used with intention

54:12 Where to Find Miki * Invites others to connect + Mentions her website: leadingbyexample.life + Visitors can book 30-minute conversations directly on her calendar - Says she's genuinely open to discussing this topic with anyone interested

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Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander.

In this episode, I’m talking with Bobby Podesta, longtime Pixar animator and storyteller.

We dig into why storytelling and art matter, and why finding your own voice is more important than copying anyone else.

Bobby opens up about his journey as an artist, the imposter syndrome he’s faced, and how he learned to create art in a style that’s truly his.

We talk about how he turned a written novel into a graphic novel, translating dialogue and descriptions into illustrations along the way.

He shares lessons from his college design teacher about noticing the art all around us—not just in museums or galleries.

We also explore how design and storytelling balance function and emotion, in ways you might not even realize in everyday life.

Bobby’s story shows that creativity isn’t about perfection – it’s about showing up and being authentic.

He gives a fresh perspective on how storytelling shapes the way we see the world and connect with others.

This episode is full of insights for anyone who cares about art, design, and telling stories that matter.

00:00 Start 03:13 The Importance of Human Connection in Storytelling * Bobby on storytelling + Background: 30 years in film, always thinking about story structure. + Drama is about “what you’re both keeping back and what you’re waiting to surprise your audience with.”

• Steve Jobs anecdote
• Jobs builds suspense with “one more thing.”
• On stage, he asks: “Has anyone ever wondered what this small pocket is for?” (the tiny jeans pocket).
• Instead of something expected like a coin, he pulls out “the world’s smallest iPod and people flip out.”

• Why it works: audience knows the pocket’s size → no need to explain iPod’s dimensions.

• Structure: setup → familiar norm → question → twist → payoff.

• Bobby’s takeaway: “That’s really good storytelling, man. It’s really good storytelling.”

• “People call him a salesperson. Like he’s a great salesman. He’s a great storyteller. If you can tell a good story, you’re pulling people in. That’s the key.”

• Robin on storytelling & AI

• His work is making commercials and mini-docs for startups.
• Says video itself doesn’t matter as much as impact: “What I care about is changing human behavior and changing human emotion.”

• Believes the value of human storytelling is timeless: “The value of sitting at Homer’s feet and listening to him recite the Iliad is never going to go away.”

• Bobby on storytelling & art

• Storytelling = fundamental way to convey and connect.

• Sees it like art: “Art is a way to express your opinion and how you process the world around you in a manner that hopefully other people can experience and relate to.”

• Calls art his “oldest friend, who I’ve probably treated the worst… neglected, starved, and then expect it to show up and perform.”

• Believes everyone can create: “Art is not a zero-sum game… art is ultimately subjective because art is an opinion about how you see the world.”

• Goal of art/storytelling: help others “find some relationship to the world around them through it.”

06:01 Art as a Form of Expression * Robin’s setup + Grew up between an artist mother and entrepreneur father – “perfect intersection” of art + business. + Distinguishes museum art (“old, on walls”) from art that’s “around us all the time.” - Points out modern communicators (Musk, Trump) as powerful storytellers/branders – even if you disagree with the content, “that is great art in the form of good communication.” - Asks: why do we separate “high” art (Iliad, museums) from everyday, cultural storytelling (Pixar, branding)?

• Art is everywhere
• Bobby uses the car-buying analogy to explain awareness:
• “You’re looking for a midsize pickup and suddenly you see them everywhere. They didn’t just appear. You’re just paying attention.”

• Art works the same way – once you start noticing, you realize it’s all around you.

• Lesson from a design teacher:

• “If it wasn’t dug up or grown, it’s designed.”

• Everything man-made carries intention – and therefore, art.

• Pushes back on the museum-only view of art:

• “Saying art is only in museums is like saying there are only cars at dealerships. There are cars everywhere. There’s art everywhere.”

• Examples of art woven into daily life:

• Clothing, headphones, glasses
• Desks, chairs, pottery, textiles
• Buildings, skylines, sidewalk prints
• Freeway dividers, lamps

• Even tools: “Go get a hammer. The handle’s probably painted a color. It may be a penny’s worth of art, but it’s art, man.”

• Definition of art:

• “All these things are working with that balance between functionality and making you feel something.”

• Even branding choices – a color, a shape – are designed to evoke feeling.

• Perspective shift:

• Once you adjust your lens, “there’s a lot of art out there. It’s really, really amazing.”

12:04 The Relationship Between Artist and Art * Bobby compares practice to a relationship: + “It’s like the people that love you the most, sometimes you treat the worst.” - Practice is like a loyal friend or character always waiting: - Wants to be fed, but often ignored. - Always ready to show up again.

• “It’s like that little character that shows up and is always there to help you out.”

• Robin asks if practice is a character on his shoulder.

• Bobby: “It probably is… but I love it. If there’s a napkin, I’ll doodle.”

• Art as a shared childhood language:

• Everyone starts out drawing: “Have you ever met an adult who didn’t draw as a kid? Everyone says yes.”
• Drawing is how children interpret the world.

• Family encouragement made “the artist” part of his identity.

• Becoming a writer:

• Took a UC Berkeley Extension class called “Finishing the Novel.”

• Professor’s advice: “You’re all taking classes. None of you are professionals. Go form a writers’ group.”

• Writers’ group provided accountability → led to a first draft.

• Draft → literary agent → graphic novel → published book.

• “Flash forward all these years later and I have a book that comes out… I guess I’m an author.”

• Lessons on growth and identity:

• Identity comes from practice and persistence, not instant recognition.
• Progress isn’t linear: “The road is not a straight line.”

• Common trap: believing “I should have been there already.”

• Bobby reframes time:

• “You can often have what you want, or you can have something when you want it. But you can rarely have what you want when you want it.”

• Letting go of rigid timelines gives a better chance of arriving.

18:01 The Process of Creating a Graphic Novel * Robin asks why this story, why now, and why as a debut novel. + Bobby admits he had played with different story ideas before. + Thought to himself: “If I only have one chance to do this, what story do I want to tell?”

• Origin spark: a daydream while driving.
• “What if an animal just jumped out in front of me?”
• What if it leapt into the air and flew away?
• “What if that animal was a reindeer?”
• Question: what would a reindeer be doing here?

• That “what if” became the seed of the story.

• Bobby folded parts of himself into the idea.

• Loves holiday stories and movies → wanted to write one.

• Describes storytelling as crafting from a “pantry of experiences.”

• Not autobiography or documentary, but infused with pieces of his life.

• Details of the novel:

• Protagonist is an 11-year-old girl in 1955 Colorado.
• Bobby: “I was neither alive in 1955, nor have I ever been an 11-year-old girl, nor have I found a flying reindeer — spoiler alert.”

• Still, fragments of his own experiences and emotions shape the narrative.

• Goal as an author:

• To blend reality with imagination.
• To create something unique, fresh, and able to stand on its own.

20:58 Visual Storytelling vs. Written Storytelling * Robin asks about storytelling: what’s similar between Steve Jobs’ two-minute iPod reveal and a 350-page graphic novel? + Bobby: scale is different, but fundamentals are the same. + Both are about introducing an idea, building drama, and pulling the audience in. + Events and books both follow arcs: setup → build → climax → resolution. - “He doesn’t start the event with that, he ends the event with that. That’s the climax.”

• Storytelling has shape across mediums:
• Characters introduced → audience grows to care → surprises and turns → payoffs.

• Example: Steve Jobs’ coin pocket reveal → set up, then payoff.

• In a book, the payoff may come 100 pages later instead of 30 seconds.

• Analogy: whether you play 30 seconds of a song or an hour-long concert, you’re still using the same fundamentals of music.

• Robin shifts to Bobby’s background as a visual storyteller.

• As an animator of 30 years, Bobby is comfortable with visual stories, while Robin is more comfortable with written ones.

• Robin compares Bobby’s graphic novel to The Bone Compendium (which he revisits often) and contrasts with Heinlein novels he might attempt.

• Robin: making comics doesn’t have to be like “my mother’s artwork she slaved over for years.” It can be like newspaper comics compiled into story.

• Asks Bobby for advice on where to begin if he wanted to try sketching a visual story.

• Bobby’s advice:

• Many people don’t think visual storytelling is possible for them.

• Shares personal story:

• On his first post-college date with his wife (now 25 years married), he said he wanted to write a book.
• It took him 25 years to actually write one.

• Never thought of doing a graphic novel because his drawing style didn’t look like Marvel or X-Men.

• Even as a professional artist, felt imposter syndrome

• Realization: it’s not about imitating Spider-Man — it’s about drawing in your own style.

• Art is your opinion expressed visually.

• Stick figures can work if they serve the story.

• Doesn’t have to be polished airbrushed paintings.

• How his graphic novel came about:

• Originally wrote the story as a regular novel.
• Sent to publishers with just a few illustrations.
• All said no — except one, who said: “I love the illustrations. Would you consider making this a graphic novel?”

• Bobby: “All right.” Treated it as an invitation. Decided to draw in his own style.

• Practical process:

• Took all the dialogue he had already written.
• Turned descriptions into drawings.
• Book was already written in close third person, without inner thoughts → made translation easier.
• First pass: dialogue in speech bubbles, description drawn.

• Realized: “I guess this works.”

• Takeaway:

• You don’t have to start by drawing an entire book from scratch.
• You can begin with writing, then translate description into visuals.

28:10 Resilience in the Face of Rejection * Robin points out the sheer amount of work Bobby went through: writing a book, getting rejected repeatedly, reinventing it with illustrations, then turning it into a graphic novel only to be rejected again. + Robin: “It’s almost the literal definition of courage… getting back up and trying again.” + Notes that outsiders might think: “30-year Pixar animator, easy for you.” But the reality was rejection after rejection. - Asks: how do you come back? What is your relationship with practice that allows you to face no 50 times and keep going?

• Bobby on optimism and imagination:
• “I’m lucky that I happen to be what myself and other people probably call an optimistic person.”
• Describes himself as “an optimist with a vivid imagination” → always assuming, “Yeah, we’ll figure this out.”

• Loves being middle-aged because experience gives perspective: you’ve seen enough to know you can recover.

• The arc of a career/life:

• Beginning stage: fearless.
• “I can do anything because I cannot die.”

• Willing to leap into anything: start a company, go broke, jump off a cliff → “We’ll figure it out.”

• Middle stage: awareness of consequences.

• Relationships, responsibilities, failures and successes → “I don’t know if I should do anything.”

• Weight of awareness can freeze you.

• Later stage: resilience.

• “I’m still here, I figured it out.”

• Confidence comes not from avoiding mistakes but from knowing: “I can recover from anything.”

• Personal examples:

• Bobby’s two kids are both in college. He reflects on their application process: multiple schools, multiple options.

• His own experience was the opposite:

• Applied to only one school (CalArts).
• Barely got in.
• Supported by his single mother, who let him pursue art school.

• That early challenge taught him persistence and how to “figure it out.”

• The practice of persistence:

• Life and career filled with moments of trial and error.
• “That didn’t work. Okay, maybe this. Well, that didn’t work. Maybe this.”
• Sometimes progress feels like moving backwards before going forward again.
• Analogy: like a Roomba.

• Hits an obstacle → bounces, changes direction, keeps moving.

• “I don’t know that equating myself to a robot vacuum is the best thing, but it eventually gets the whole job done.”

33:33 Storytelling Frameworks and Structures * Bobby on classical story structure in his book: + Book follows a traditional arc: opening, inciting incident (

View Details

Hi everyone, welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander.

This episode is a little different - instead of me hosting, I was actually the guest on my good friend Josh Levine’s podcast, Great Mondays Radio.

Josh and I went deep on a topic I care about a lot: why soft skills are the hard currency of the future. We explored what really sets humans apart in an age of rapid innovation, the rise of AI, and all the talk about machines taking over jobs. We dug into the skills that can’t be automated, the value we bring that AI can never replicate, and why those human capabilities will only matter more in the years ahead.

We also touched on leadership, creativity, and how we can all prepare ourselves - and our organizations - for the changes still to come.

Please take a moment to subscribe to Josh’s show, Great Mondays Radio. It would mean a lot to both of us, and I know you’ll enjoy the incredible conversations he’s hosting.

I’m also excited that Josh will be joining us at Responsive Conference 2025 as a guest - so this won’t be the last time you hear from him in our orbit.

View Details

Welcome back to Snafu w/ Robin Zander.

In this episode, I’m joined by Simone Stolzoff – author of The Good Enough Job and the upcoming How to Not Know – and our opening keynote speaker at Responsive Conference 2025.

We explore what it means to have an identity beyond your job title, why rest is essential for high performance, and how ritual and community offer grounding in an age of uncertainty. Simone shares how Judaism and Shabbat have shaped his views on balance, the role of “guardrails” over boundaries, and how we can build more durable lives – personally and professionally. We talk about the future of religion, the risks and opportunities of AI, and why books still matter even in a tech-saturated world. Simone also offers practical writing advice, previews his next book, and explains why embracing uncertainty may be the most valuable skill of all.

Simone will be speaking live at Responsive Conference 2025, September 17–18, and I can’t wait for you to hear more.

If you haven’t gotten your tickets yet, get them here.

Start (00:00) Identity Beyond Titles (01:07.414) * What identities do you hold that aren't listed on your LinkedIn? * Simone’s Answer: + Ultimate frisbee player – “the entirety of my adult life” + Aspiring salsa dancer – taking intro classes with his wife + Former spoken word poet – “It was the most important thing to me when I was 19 years old.” + New father – navigating life with a five-month-old

• "I encourage people to ask: what do you like to do, as opposed to what do you do?"

Shabbat as a Sanctuary in Time (01:58.831) * Robin references Simone's TED Talk, focusing on Shabbat as a metaphor for boundary-setting and presence. + Simone expands: - Shabbat offers a weekly rhythm to separate work from rest. * Emphasizes the idea of "sacred time" and intentional disconnection from screens.

• Shabbat is a “sanctuary in time,” paralleling physical sanctuaries like churches or synagogues.
• Relates this to work-life balance, noting that intentions alone aren't enough – infrastructure is needed.
• "We have intentions… but what actually leads to balance is structural barriers."

Boundaries vs. Guardrails (04:44.32) * Cites Anne Helen Petersen’s metaphor: + Boundaries = painted lane lines + Guardrails = physical barriers that actually keep you on the road

• There are calls for more guardrails (structural protections) in modern life.
• Examples:
• Airplane mode during playtime with his kid

• Attending yoga or activities where work can’t creep in

• "Individually imposed boundaries often break down when the pressures of capitalism creep in."

Religion, Ritual & Community (06:48.57) * Robin asks how Judaism has shaped Simone’s thinking around work and life. * Simone reflects: + Religion offers a “container” with a different value system than capitalism. + As organized religion declined, people turned to work for identity, meaning, and community. + Religion can offer rituals to process uncertainty — e.g., mourning rituals like sitting shiva. + Religious or community spaces offer contrast: they don’t care about your career success. - "Religion is sort of like a container… with a value system that isn't just about growth charts." * "It can be refreshing to say: Day 1, do this. Day 7, go for a walk."

• Personal journey:
• Simone reconnected with Judaism in his 30s as he built his own family.
• Once, went out of obligation, then rejected it, and now see beauty in ritual and intergenerational wisdom.

The Future of Religion & Community (09:12.454) * Robin theorizes a future rise in spiritual and communal gatherings: + Predicts new spiritual movements or evolutions of old ones + Notes a hunger for meaningful in-person connection, especially post-AI and amid tech saturation - "There's a hunger... as AI and screens define how we relate, people want to gather in person." - "I don’t tend to make predictions, but I think this one’s inevitable."

• Simone agrees... but offers data as contrast:
• Cites the decline in religious affiliation in the U.S.
• 1950s: 3–4% unaffiliated

• Today: Nearly 1 in 3 identify as “Nones” (no religion)

• Notes reasons:

• Rising wealth tends to increase secularism

• The internet creates alternate identity spaces

• "I do believe there is inevitability in the growth [of spirituality]... But the data points the opposite way."

• Simone reflects on the factors behind declining religious affiliation:

• Doubt now builds community – the internet has enabled people to connect around leaving religion as much as practicing it.
• Political entanglement – many young Americans, especially, are alienated by the perceived overlap between right-wing politics and Christianity.
• Yet despite this secular trend, the need for meaning, ritual, and purpose remains universal.
• “There still is this fundamental need to find meaning, to find purpose, to find ritual… even if it’s not in the forms we’re used to.”

A Church in the Mission (13:07.182) * Robin shares a formative experience from 2016: + That year, he launched both Robin’s Café and the first Responsive Conference. + When he walked into the theater space that would become his café, he encountered a young, diverse Christian revival group – live music, dancing, and energetic worship happening in a Mission District theater. + This juxtaposition – a traditional spiritual gathering inside a modern, “hip” venue – left a lasting impression. - “It felt like a revival meeting in the South… except it was full of people my age and younger, partying on a Saturday morning – and it just happened to be church.”

You Are More Than Your Work (14:51.182) * Robin segues into the idea of multiple identities: + He recalls how reading The 4-Hour Work Week helped him embrace not defining himself solely by his entrepreneurial work. + Even on tough days running a business, movement and fitness have been a grounding force – something he does daily, independent of career performance.

• Quotes from Simone’s TED Talk:
• “Some people do what they love for work; others work so they can do what they love. Neither is more noble.”

• Robin asks Simone to share the origin of this line and how it connects to the poet Anis Mojgani.

• Simone recounts a pivotal conversation during college:

• As a poetry and economics double major, he was wrestling with career path anxiety.
• He interviewed his favorite poet, Anis Mojgani, asking: “Do you believe in the idea, ‘Do what you love and never work a day in your life’?”
• Mojgani’s response:

• “Some people do what they love for work. Others do what they have to so they can do what they love when they’re not working. Neither is more noble.”

• This countered Simone’s expectations and left a deep impression. He highlights two cases for cultivating a broader identity beyond work:

• Business Case:

• High performance requires rest.

• People with “greater self-complexity” — more identities outside of work — are more creative, more resilient, and more emotionally stable.

• Moral Case:

• Investing in other parts of ourselves makes us better citizens, community members, and humans.
• Singular identity (especially career-based) is fragile and susceptible to collapse — e.g., pandemic layoffs.

• Solely work-based identity also sets unrealistically high expectations that can lead to disappointment.

• “You’re balancing on a very narrow platform… You’re susceptible to a large gust of wind.”

• Robin reflects on how the Responsive Manifesto intentionally avoids prescribing one path:

• It's not anti-work or anti-grind.
• Recognizes that sometimes hard work is necessary, especially in entrepreneurship.

• Shares how his friend’s newsletter, Just Go Grind, embraces the idea that seasons of hustle are sometimes required.

• “Everyone figuring out their own boundaries is actually the goal.”

Work Isn't Good or Bad – It's Complex (18:34.436) * Simone adds that society tends to polarize the narrative around work: + Some say “burn it all down”, that work is evil. + Others say, “Do what you love, or it’s not worth doing.”

• His book The Good Enough Job argues for a middle way:
• It’s not hustle propaganda.
• It’s not a slacker's manifesto.

• It’s about recognizing that we spend a huge portion of our lives working, so it matters how we approach it, but also recognizing we’re more than just our jobs.

• He introduces the concept of temporal balance:

• “There’s a natural seasonality to work.”
• Sometimes, long hours are necessary (e.g., startup mode, sales targets).
• But it should be a season, not a permanent lifestyle.

What’s the Role of Books in the Age of AI? (22:41.507) * Robin poses a forward-looking question: + In an age when AI can summarize, synthesize, and generate information rapidly, what’s the role of books? + Especially nonfiction, where facts are easier to reproduce.

• Simone responds with both uncertainty and hope:
• Human storytelling as a moat:
• His work relies on reporting, profiling, and character studies — something LLMs can’t yet replicate with nuance.

• He doesn’t know how long this will remain defensible, but will continue to lean into it.

• Books are more than information:

• Books have utility beyond facts: they are entertainment, physical objects, and cultural symbols.

• Quotes the vibe of being surrounded by books: there's even an untranslatable word (possibly German or Japanese) about the comfort of unread books.

• A vinyl-record future:

• Books may become more niche, collectible, or artisanal, similar to vinyl.

• But they still hold society’s most well-formed, deeply considered ideas.

• The human touch still matters:

• A typed note that looks handwritten isn’t the same as a note that is handwritten.

• People will crave authenticity and human creation, especially in a tech-saturated world.

• “You can appreciate when something has a level of human touch, especially in an increasingly tech-powered world.”

• He closes with a self-aware reflection:

• “I don’t claim to know whether my career will still exist in five years… which is why I picked this topic for my second book.”

“Created by Humans” (25:49.549) * Robin references a conversation with Bree Groff, who imagined a world where creative work carries a “Created by Human” tag, like organic food labeling. + “I think we’ll see that [kind of labeling] in the next few decades – maybe even in the next few years.” - As AI-generated content floods the market, human-made work may soon carry new cultural cachet.

• Simone shares a turning point: after submitting an op-ed to The New York Times, his editor flagged a bad metaphor. En route to a bachelor party, he opened ChatGPT, asked for new metaphors, chose one, and it made the print edition the next day.
• “Maybe I’ve broken some law about journalism ethics... but that was the moment where I was like: whoa. This sh*t is crazy.”

The Home-Buying Crash Course Powered by AI (27:57) * Robin’s breakthrough came while navigating the chaos of buying a house. He used ChatGPT to upskill rapidly: + Structural questions (e.g., redwood roots and foundation risk) + Zoning and legal research + Negotiation tactics

• “The rate of learning I was able to create because of these tools was 10 to 100 times faster than what I could’ve done previously.”

How to Live Without Knowing (29:41.498) * Simone previews his next book, How to Not Know, a field guide for navigating uncertainty. In an age of instant answers, our tolerance for the unknown is shrinking, while uncertainty itself is growing. + “We’re trying to find clarity where there is none. My hope is that the book offers tools to live in that space.”

• The “Three Horsemen of Delusion”:
• Comfort – we crave the ease of certainty.
• Hubris – we assume we know more than we do.

• Control – we believe certainty gives us power over the future.

• Robin asks how Simone finds his stories. His answer: chase change. Whether internal (doubt, transformation) or external (leaving a cult, facing rising seas), he seeks tension and evolution.

• Examples:
• A couple questioning their marriage
• An employee leading dissent at work
• A man leaving his religious identity behind
• A nation (Tuvalu) confronting its own disappearance
• “The story you find is always better than the one you seek.”

Want to Be a Writer? Start Writing. (36:50.554) * Robin asks for writing advice. Simone offers two pillars: + Ask These Four Questions: - What’s the story? - Why should people care? - Why now? - Why you? * “Only you can tell the story of buying a café and selling it on Craigslist.”

• Build the Practice:
• Writing is not just inspiration—it’s routine.

• Schedule it. Join a group. Set deadlines.

• “Writing is the act of putting your ass in the chair.”

• Robin applauds Simone’s book title, How to Not Know, for its playfulness and relevance. He asks how Simone’s own relationship with uncertainty has evolved through his research.

• Simone reflects on how writing his first book, The Good Enough Job, softened his stance, from a hot take to a more nuanced view of work’s role in life. Similarly, with his new book, his thinking on uncertainty has shifted.

• “Uncertainty is uncomfortable by design. That discomfort is what makes us pay attention.”

• Simone once championed uncertainty for its spontaneity and freedom. But now, he sees a more complex dance between certainty and uncertainty.

• “Certainty begets the ability to become more comfortable with uncertainty.”

• He gives the example of a younger self traveling with no plan, and the maturity of seeing how some people use uncertainty to avoid depth and commitment.

Durable Skills for an Unstable Future (43:57.613) * Robin shifts to the practical: In a world where stability is fading, what should we teach future generations? + Simone shares three core “durable skills”: - Learn how to learn – Adaptability beats certainty. - Tell compelling stories – Human connection never goes out of style. - Discern control from chaos – Use a mental decision tree: * What can I control? * If I can’t control it, can I prepare? * If I can’t prepare, can I accept? + “Often we’re more uncomfortable with uncertainty than with a certain bad outcome.”

• He cites research showing people are stressed more by maybe getting shocked than actually getting shocked.

AI as Editor, Not Author (47:23.765) * Robin circles back to AI. Simone explains how his relationship with it has evolved: + He never uses it for first drafts or ideation. + Instead, AI serves as a “sparring partner” in editing – great at spotting drag, less useful at solving it. - “People are often right about something being wrong, but not about the solution. I treat AI the same way.”

• Simone defends creative friction as essential to craft: rewriting, deleting, struggling – that’s the work.

The Chinese Farmer & the Fallacy of Forecasts (50:27.215) * Robin expresses cautious optimism – but also fears AI will widen inequality and erode entry-level jobs. He asks what gives Simone hope. + Simone counters with the “Parable of the Chinese Farmer,” where events can’t be judged good or bad in real time. His conclusion: we don’t know enough to be either pessimistic or optimistic. - “Maybe AI ushers in civil unrest. Maybe a golden age. Maybe yes, maybe no.”

• He’s most hopeful about the growing value of human touch – gifts of time, love, and effort in an increasingly automated world.

Where to Find Simone (53:44.845) * Website: thegoodenoughjob.com * Newsletter: The Article Book Club (monthly articles not written by him, thousands of subscribers) + Robin reminds listeners that Simone will be the opening speaker at Responsive Conference 2025, September 17–18.

People Mentioned:

• M'Gilvry Allen
• Anne Helen Petersen
• Anis Mojgani
• Bree Groff
• Tim Ferriss
• Steven Pressfield
• Ernest Hemingway
• Justin Gordon

Organizations Mentioned:

• Responsive Conference
• Zander Media
• Asana, Inc
• X, The Moonshot Factory (formerly Google X)
• Waymo,
• Jewish Community Centers (Boulder & Denver)
• Robin’s Cafe
• Amazon
• Google / Alphabet

Books & Newsletters

• The Good Enough Job
• How to Not Know (upcoming book)
• The 4‑Hour Workweek
• Just Go Grind
• Article Book Club

View Details

Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander.

In this episode, I’m joined by Bree Groff, consultant, writer, and author of Today Was Fun.

We talk about why mischief belongs at work, how humor and flirtation create real psychological safety, and the bold design choices behind her unforgettable book cover. Bree shares how she moved from CEO roles to full creative freedom, and how that shift helped her find her voice. We discuss marketing in 2025, how AI might reshape work and writing, and why personal agency, not hours, is the most important lever in a workweek.

Bree offers practical insights for leading with joy, helping kids future-proof their lives, and deciding what’s “enough” in a world that always demands more. She also reflects on writing the book while parenting, consulting, and building her own business, and what it means to embrace the joy of not knowing what comes next.

Bree will also be joining us live at Responsive Conference 2025, and I’m thrilled for you to hear her on stage.

If you haven’t gotten your tickets yet, get them here.

Books

• Trickster Makes This World: Mischief, Myth, and Art — Lewis Hyde
• Anansi Boys — Neil Gaiman
• Work Less, Do More: Designing the 4-Day Week — Alex Pang
• Shorter: Work Better, Smarter, and Less―Here's How — Alex Pang
• Rest: Why You Get More Done When You Work Less — Alex Pang
• Perennial Seller: The Art of Making and Marketing Work that Lasts — Ryan Holiday
• Today Was Fun — Bree Groff
• The 4-Hour Workweek —Tim Ferriss
• Responsive: What It Takes to Create a Thriving Organization — Robin Zander

Podcasts/Videos

• TED Talk: How to Start a Movement — Derek Sivers

Start (0:00) The Story Behind the Book Cover (00:07.822) * Robin opens with a personal observation: Bree’s nails are the exact shade of green as her book cover – a smiley face on a highlighter yellow-green background. * Bree laughs and explains the choice behind the bold, offbeat cover: + It was designed by Rodrigo Corral, known for iconic covers like The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fck*. + When she first saw it (at 3 a.m.), she gasped and loved it — it stood out and made a statement. + The smiley is cheeky but not cheesy; it suggests optimism with a bite. + The color isn’t quite yellow — it’s that “gross green” that almost hurts to look at. That tension is the point. + “It’s got some edge... not your straight-up yellow.”

• This tension – bright and fun, but just a bit weird or off – is exactly the tone she wanted for the book and for herself.

The Wink That Makes Work Fun Again (01:51) * Robin brings up his old graduation photo: he posed slightly off-center, adding a knowing smirk. At the time, he didn’t know why he chose that shot, but later realized it made people curious, like a small rebellion baked into something formal. + Bree relates completely. She talks about: - Why humor and a bit of mischief matter in professional settings. - The concept of flirtation – not romantic, but playful: * A wink in a branding campaign. * A reference that only a few insiders get. * A running joke between team members.

• Mischief creates risk and intimacy, both essential for real connection.

• These small acts of rebellion are actually signs of psychological safety and creativity.

• “You need a little bit of flirtation at work... a wink that says, ‘we’re in this together.’”

• She argues that fun isn’t a distraction – it’s a sign that something is working.

Tricksters, SNAFUs, and the Role of Risk in Work (05:49.219) * Robin brings in the idea of the trickster, from folklore characters like Anansi and Coyote to his podcast title SNAFU. These figures don’t follow the rules, and that’s what makes them interesting. + Bree expands on the connection between play and professionalism: - There’s a cultural script that says “seriousness = competence.” - But in her experience, some of the best work moments involve play, risk, and even slight embarrassment. - Being human together – laughing too loud, saying something weird, trying something bold – is what builds bonds. - Real joy at work comes from these edge moments, not the sanitized ones. * “You have to go beyond professionalism to access the most fun parts of work.”

• They agree that creating spaces where people can color outside the lines is not just fun – it’s productive.

Beyond Palatable: From People-Pleasing to Belonging (08:29.068) * Robin shares a lesson from his mother: that once you leave high school, life is no longer a popularity contest. But he’s realized that in business, especially branding, people often still chase approval and “likability.” * Bree offers a deeper lens: + Being “palatable” – meaning universally acceptable – is actually the opposite of being memorable. + People who try to please everyone end up blending in. + What she wants is to be delicious, or at least striking, not for everyone, but unforgettable to some.

• She draws a line between
• Fitting in: performing a version of yourself to meet social norms.
• Belonging: being your full, vibrant self and finding others who welcome it.

• “Please don’t chew me up. I’m not palatable — I’m not trying to be.”

• This philosophy shows up in her book’s voice, design, and in how she shows up in the world.

Selling a Book in 2025: Bottles in the Ocean (12:21.838) * What's it been like trying to promote a book in 2025? + Bree describes her strategy as both scrappy and intuitive: + She thinks of book marketing as sending “a million notes in bottles” – not knowing which will land. - Her approach includes: * Partnering with a publicist. * Creating swag kits with branded gear. * Pitching the book to “chatty” communities (e.g., alumni groups, newsletters, podcast audiences). * Posting regularly, even when it feels silly.

• She cites the idea of “luck surface area”: the more interesting things you do, and the more people you tell, the more chances something will stick.

• “You do interesting things and talk about them a lot... and maybe something takes off.”

• Still, she acknowledges that luck plays a role. There’s no guaranteed playbook, just momentum and hope.

Is It Worth Talking About? (14:47.63) * Robin references a quote from Tucker Max: that all marketing, in the end, is just word-of-mouth. * Bree shares what guided her during the writing process: + Her goal was to create something remarkable — in the literal sense: - Something people would want to talk about. - Not just good – but distinct, resonant, and weird enough to share.

• She wanted to avoid the “business book voice” – flat, generic, overly polished.
• She lights up when she talks about:
• Strangers sharing the book on social.
• Friends are texting her about it.

• An old college boyfriend resurfaced after reading it.

• “When that starts happening... You realize the machine is working.”

• She’s less interested in best-seller lists and more focused on impact – ideas spreading from person to person, because they hit.

Finding Her Voice: From Blogger to Book Author (16:36.665) * Bree traces the evolution of her writing life: + Started a travel blog in her early 20s and loved it immediately. + Played with writing publicly over the years: occasional posts on LinkedIn, Fast Company, and later Substack (which began two years ago, alongside early book ideation). + Writing always felt natural, but being a public voice within organizations came with constraints: - “Even when I was CEO, I still felt the need to toe the party line.”

• Going solo changed everything:
• No longer represents a company’s brand – just her own.
• Writing feels more honest, bolder, and more fun when it’s “Bree Groff’s opinions” alone.
• Stepping out independently accelerated her writing voice and gave her creative freedom.

Writing in the Age of AI (18:19.63) * Robin asks: Does writing still matter in the world of AI? * Bree’s take: + She’s a verbal processor — writing is how she discovers what she believes. - “I never know how an article is going to end… I write my way into the idea.”

• She rarely uses AI in writing (aside from Grammarly). She prefers human composition even for emails.
• Writing helps her organize and refine her thinking:

• “I’ll write a sentence and go – wait, do I believe that? And rewrite.”

• What writing offers that AI can’t (yet):

• Emotional authenticity.
• A confessional power — like stand-up comedy: humans telling uncomfortable truths, out loud.
• She hopes we’ll someday have digital labels like:

• “This was made by a human.”

• Robin presses for Bree’s take on what AI changes – for better or worse.

• Bree’s pessimistic view:
• Mass unemployment is a likely risk.
• Not convinced by the “tech creates more jobs” argument – even referencing Jevons Paradox: as things become more efficient, we just use more of them.

• “I can’t quite think my way out of the unemployment problem.”

• Bree’s optimistic vision:

• We’re burned out. AI could fix that.
• If used right, AI can reduce workloads, not eliminate humans:
• “Wouldn’t it be great if we used these efficiencies to help people live happy, regulated lives?”

• This would require a policy change, like tax incentives for companies that adopt a 4-day workweek.

• But she admits: that’s a long shot.

• “It would take a lot for companies to prioritize reducing burnout over cutting costs.”

Entrepreneurship Isn’t a 4-Day Workweek (And That’s Okay) (25:04.686) * Robin challenges Bree’s hope with reality: + Entrepreneurship is chaotic and demanding, as when he launched both a restaurant and a conference in one year. + When building something from scratch, the work is relentless. - “There’s no 4-day workweek when you’re going zero to one.”

• He notes Bree’s book could become a “perennial seller,” but only if she builds that momentum now — and that means hustle.

• Bree agrees — and offers nuance:

• She’s in a launch phase. The last 6 weeks have been intense:
• Nights, weekends, articles, appearances.
• Her daughter is in a full-day camp to support this push.

• But it’s intentional and temporary.

• She frames her philosophy like this:

• Overwork can be fun, energizing, even addictive – if it’s seasonal.
• She’s already planned recovery:
• A two-week log-off in late August.

• A blocked-out first week of September for reset.

• Bree continues on the myth of “reasonable” work limits:

• There’s nothing special about 40 or 60 hours. The only reason we cap out is that we literally run out of time.
• Businesses will take as much as you give, and now AI won’t hit those limits.
• So we have to decide what’s enough, not the market.

• “If we’re going to cap work somewhere, why not cap it lower and enjoy our lives?”

• She reminds us:

• Deadlines and pace are levers, not laws.

• You can pull other levers, like starting earlier, extending timelines, or balancing your team differently.

• Robin shares that his intense physical regimen (handstands, running, cold plunges, hikes) isn’t about health prescriptions — it’s about joy.

• That same mindset applies to work. If building his company lights him up, great – but it’s a personal choice, not a universal blueprint.

• Bree underscores that agency is key: the danger arises when a founder’s choice to overwork becomes the cultural expectation for everyone else.

• A CEO has different stakes than employees; assuming equal sacrifice is unfair and toxic.

• Overwork becomes problematic when choice is removed or social pressure distorts it.

• They introduce the idea of opportunity cost:

• Every hour spent grinding is an hour not spent with loved ones, moving your body, or simply resting.

• Many delay self-care with the illusion they’ll "catch up later" – but your body and relationships exist in the now.

• Robin recalls a brutal 2016: two startups, no time, lost relationships – a visceral reminder that everything has a cost.

Work, But Make It Weird (36:39) * Robin draws a parallel between their playful ethos and The 4-Hour Workweek: redefining productivity with mischief and authenticity. * He asks Bree how leaders can lead differently – more playfully – without violating norms or HR policies. + Bree delivers a gem: - Her team once suggested that a CEO explain their product to a bunch of 7-year-olds on a picnic blanket. - They scripted techy questions ("What’s your tech stack?") for the kids, hired a comedy consultant, and filmed the whole thing. - It was wild, unexpected… and the most beloved part of an otherwise traditional company week.

• The magic was in the vulnerability and humanity of the CEO — letting people into his home, sharing space with kids, and showing joy.

• Bree’s advice to leaders:

• Rearrange the office furniture for no reason.
• Use Comic Sans in a slide just to annoy a designer.
• Hide jokes in presentations that only two people will catch.

• Amuse yourself. That’s reason enough, and it models psychological safety and play for everyone else.

• Robin calls this “the courage to play” – the bravery to step out of line just enough to invite others into the fun.

• Bree builds on this:
• We’re often afraid that having fun will make us look stupid – but that fear is misplaced.
• She quotes Amy Poehler: “Nobody looks stupid when they’re having fun.”

• Play is an act of self-assurance, not frivolity.

• Bree shares a personal win: she turned a project Gantt chart into a hand-drawn arcade-style horse race.

• No one else joined in, but she loved it.
• And that joy, in and of itself, is a worthy output.

Work According to a 10-Year-Old (42:21.176) * Robin asks: How does Bree’s daughter describe what she does? + Her answer? “You help people work together.” + Bree beams — that’s not far off.

• Her daughter has even become her little publicist, linking nail polish to Bree’s book and promoting it to strangers.

• Robin dreams of having kids and wonders about their future in a rapidly evolving world.

• Bree is grateful her daughter is 10, not 22 – the future feels so uncertain that not knowing is oddly freeing.

• College may or may not matter; she might be a marketing manager or start an artist retreat in Tuscany.

• The one stable prediction? Human connection.

• Jobs built on empathy, presence, and the hug – literal or metaphorical – will always have value.

• Robin jokes (but not really) about resisting the idea of robot romantic partners.

• Bree wonders: Will we be seen as biased for resisting AI companionship? Is that the next generational tension?

The Only Skill That Might Still Matter in 2040 (43:55.959) * Robin asks: What durable skills should Gen Alpha learn in a world of AI and noise? + Bree’s first thought: “understanding human behavior” — but AI might already be better at that.

• So she lands on something deeper:
• The skill of knowing what kind of life you want to lead.
• It’s rarely taught, and sorely needed.

• That’s why so many people wake up at 40, mid-career, with a law degree but no love for the law, and end up switching to something that finally feels like them.

• Teaching kids to listen to their appetites and curiosities might be the most powerful, future-proof education we can offer.

• Bree argues that most people were never taught to ask foundational questions about the life they truly want:

• From childhood to college, we follow preset tracks – curriculum, majors, careers.

• If you’re lucky, you get an elective or two. But real self-inquiry? Rare.

• We’re missing education on key lifestyle preferences:

• What kind of schedule do I like?
• What kind of people energize me?
• Do I want to live in a city or near nature?

• How much solitude, structure, or chaos is ideal for me?

• Bree believes this underdeveloped self-awareness is the root cause of burnout:

• People follow “the path,” get promoted, tick boxes, and still feel unsatisfied.
• Companies gladly fill the vacuum with corporate ladders and titles – senior director, VP, etc.

• But we rarely stop to ask: Do I want my boss’s job?

• Her hope for her daughter: not just career success, but aliveness.

• To develop the instincts and courage to ask: What do I want to get out of my short time here?
• And to find joy in helping others experience a bit more light while they’re here, too.

“Who Are You and What Is Your Purpose?” (51:33.666) * Robin shares a surprising memory: a third-grade class titled Who Are You and What Is Your Purpose? + He doesn’t remember the content – school was tough for him then – but the title stuck. + It captured something real and deep that still resonates. - Bree lights up: “Okay, I take it all back – someone was teaching this, and it was you!”

• They land on a core truth: that mischief, self-knowledge, and authenticity are deeply intertwined.
• Knowing who you are is the first step.
• And honoring the weird, playful part of yourself makes life better — and work richer.

Order, Chaos & a Trello Board (53:51) * Robin pivots: What did Bree learn about writing through this book, especially while juggling parenting and client work? * Bree shares her full process: + She started with a Trello board: each list represented a chapter. + Over many months, she collected bits of inspiration: ideas from the shower, great quotes, Substack entries, research snippets – all filed as cards. + This meant when it came time to write, she wasn’t starting from scratch. - Her trick: separate idea collection from prose creation.

• Once she had a "pile of disorganized meat," she could stitch it together with intention.
• She scheduled 4-hour blocks to write ~1,000 words per session – 50 sessions = a 50,000-word book.
• She was thoughtful about pacing and reader experience:
• "That was a heavy part – maybe time for a joke.

• "I’ve been light for a while – maybe we need some grounding research."

• The outcome: a process that respected her creativity, time, and humanity.

The Joy of Not Knowing What’s Next (54:45.848) * Robin asks: Now that the book is out, what’s next? * Bree doesn’t know, and that feels exciting. + She’s booked through the fall with workshops, consulting, media, and speaking. + But beyond that? It’s open.

• She’s leaning into serendipity:
• Publishing the book drew new, inspiring people into her life – people like Robin.
• She’s open to building the classic “author-speaker-consultant” portfolio.
• Or possibly returning to SYPartners, depending on what fits.

• Or a totally new path.

• What makes it possible?

• A jumpy career history – she’s used to leaps.
• A baseline of financial stability – and a partner with a more predictable job.
• Uncertainty isn’t terrifying when you trust yourself to figure it out.

• “I can see through October. That’s enough.”

• Robin wraps with heartfelt praise:

• Few first books feel as personal and reflective of their author as Today Was Fun.
• Even fewer come with so many shared connections vouching not just for the content, but the author herself.

Where to Find Bree Groff (58:13.58) * He urges people to read the book and see Bree on stage at the Responsive Conference (Sept 17–18). * Bree shares where to find her: + Website: breegroff.com + Substack, LinkedIn, Instagram – all linked from her site.

People Mentioned:

• Rodrigo Corral
• Lewis Hyde
• Neil Gaiman
• Tony Hsieh
• James Clear
• Tucker Max
• Alex Pang
• Ryan Holiday
• Tim Ferriss
• Amy Poehler
• Derek Sivers
• Justin Gordon
• BJ Fogg
• Seth Godin

Organizations / Companies

• Zander Media
• SYPartners
• Nobel
• Zappos
• Microsoft
• Trello
• Substack
• AOL
• LinkedIn
• Instagram

View Details

Welcome back to Snafu w/ Robin Zander.

In this episode, I’m joined by Brian Elliott, former Slack executive and co-founder of Future Forum.

We discuss the common mistakes leaders make about AI and why trust and transparency are more crucial than ever. Brian shares lessons from building high-performing teams, what makes good leadership, and how to foster real collaboration. He also reflects on raising values-driven kids, the breakdown of institutional trust, and why purpose matters. We touch on the early research behind Future Forum and what he’d do differently today.

Brian will also be joining us live at Responsive Conference 2025, and I’m excited to continue the conversation there. If you haven’t gotten your tickets yet, get them here.

What Do Most People Get Wrong About AI? (1:53) “Senior leaders sit on polar ends of the spectrum on this stuff. Very, very infrequently, sit in the middle, which is kind of where I find myself too often.”

• Robin notes Brian will be co-leading an active session on AI at Responsive Conference with longtime collaborator Helen Kupp.
• He tees up the conversation by saying Brian holds “a lot of controversial opinions” on AI, not that it’s insignificant, but that there’s a lot of “idealization.”
• Brian says most senior leaders fall into one of two camps:
• Camp A: “Oh my God, this changes everything.” These are the fear-mongers shouting: “If you don’t adopt now, your career is over.”

• Camp B: “This will blow over.” They treat AI as just another productivity fad, like others before it.

• Brian positions himself somewhere in the middle but is frustrated by both ends of the spectrum.

• He points out that the loudest voices (Mark Benioff, Andy Jassy, Zuckerberg, Sam Altman) are “arms merchants” – they’re pushing AI tools because they’ve invested billions.

• These tools are massively expensive to build and run, and unless they displace labor, it’s unclear how they generate ROI.

  • believe in AI’s potential and
  • aggressively push adoption inside their companies.
  • So, naturally, these execs have to:

• But “nothing ever changes that fast,” and both the hype and the dismissal are off-base.

Why Playing with AI Matters More Than Training (3:29) * AI is materially different from past tech, but what’s missing is attention to how adoption happens. + “The organizational craft of driving adoption is not about handing out tools. It's all emotional.”

• Adoption depends on whether people respond with fear or aspiration, not whether they have the software.
• Frontline managers are key: it’s their job to create the time and space for teams to experiment with AI.
• Brian credits Helen Kupp for being great at facilitating this kind of low-stakes experimentation.
• Suggests teams should “play with AI tools” in a way totally unrelated to their actual job.

• Example: take a look at your fridge, list the ingredients you have, and have AI suggest a recipe. “Well, that’s a sucky recipe, but it could do that, right?”

• The point isn’t utility, it’s comfort and conversation:

• What’s OK to use AI for?
• Is it acceptable to draft your self-assessment for performance reviews with AI?
• Should you tell your boss or hide it?

The Purpose of Doing the Thing (5:30) * Robin brings up Ezra Klein’s podcast in The New York Times, where Ezra asks: “What’s the purpose of writing an essay in college?” * AI can now do better research than a student, faster and maybe more accurately. * But Robin argues that the act of writing is what matters, not just the output.

+ Says: “I’m much better at writing that letter than ChatGPT can ever be, because only Robin Zander can write that letter.”

• Example: Robin and his partner are in contract on a house and wrote a letter to the seller – the usual “sob story” to win favor.

• All the writing he’s done over the past two years prepared him to write that one letter better.

• “The utility of doing the thing is not the thing itself – it’s what it trains.”

Learning How to Learn (6:35) * Robin’s fascinated by “skills that train skills” – a lifelong theme in both work and athletics. * He brings up Josh Waitzkin (from Searching for Bobby Fischer), who went from chess prodigy to big wave surfer to foil board rider. + Josh trained his surfing skills by riding a OneWheel through NYC, practicing balance in a different context.

• Robin is drawn to that kind of transfer learning and “meta-learning” – especially since it’s so hard to measure or study.

• He asks: What might AI be training in us that isn’t the thing itself?

• We don’t yet know the cognitive effects of using generative AI daily, but we should be asking.

Cognitive Risk vs. Capability Boost (8:00) * Brian brings up early research suggesting AI could make us “dumber.” + Outsourcing thinking to AI reduces sharpness over time.

• But also: the “10,000 repetitions” idea still holds weight – doing the thing builds skill.
• There’s a tension between “performance mode” (getting the thing done) and “growth mode” (learning).
• He relates it to writing:
• Says he’s a decent writer, not a great one, but wants to keep getting better.
• Has a “quad project” with an editor who helps refine tone and clarity but doesn’t do the writing.

• The setup: he provides 80% drafts, guidelines, tone notes, and past writing samples.

• The AI/editor cleans things up, but Brian still reviews:

• “I want that colloquialism back in.”
• “I want that specific example back in.”

• “That’s clunky, I don’t want to keep it.”

• Writing is iterative, and tools can help, but shouldn’t replace his voice.

On Em Dashes & Detecting Human Writing (9:30) * Robin shares a trick: he used em dashes long before ChatGPT and does them with a space on either side. He says that ChatGPT’s em dashes are double-length and don’t have spaces. + If you want to prove ChatGPT didn’t write something, “just add the space.”

• Brian agrees and jokes that his editors often remove the spaces, but he puts them back in.
• Reiterates that professional human editors like the ones he works with at Charter and Sloan are still better than AI.

Closing the Gap Takes More Than Practice (10:31) * Robin references The Gap by Ira Glass, a 2014 video that explores the disconnect between a creator’s vision and their current ability to execute on that vision. + He highlights Glass’s core advice: the only way to close that gap is through consistent repetition – what Glass calls “the reps.”

• Brian agrees, noting that putting in the reps is exactly what creators must do, even when their output doesn’t yet meet their standards.
• Brian also brings up his recent conversation with Nick Petrie, whose work focuses not only on what causes burnout but also on what actually resolves it.

• He notes research showing that people stuck in repetitive performance mode – like doctors doing the same task for decades – eventually see a decline in performance.

• Brian recommends mixing in growth opportunities alongside mastery work.

  • “exploit” mode (doing what you’re already good at) and
  • “explore” mode (trying something new that pushes you)
  • He says doing things that stretch your boundaries builds muscle that strengthens your core skills and breaks stagnation.
  • He emphasizes the value of alternating between

• He adds that this applies just as much to personal growth, especially when people begin to question their deeper purpose and ask hard questions like, “Is this all there is to my life or career?

• Brian observes that stepping back for self-reflection is often necessary, either by choice or because burnout forces a hard stop.

• He suggests that sustainable performance requires not just consistency but also intentional space for growth, purpose, and honest self-evaluation.

Why Taste And Soft Skills Now Matter More Than Ever (12:30) * On AI, Brian argues that most people get it wrong.

+ “I do think it’s augmentation.”
+ The tools are evolving rapidly, and so are the ways we use them.

• They view it as a way to speed up work, especially for engineers, but that’s missing the bigger picture.

• Brian stresses that EQ is becoming more important than IQ.

• Companies still need people with developer mindsets – hypothesis-driven, structured thinkers.

• But now, communication, empathy, and adaptability are no longer optional; they are critical.

• “Human communication skills just went from ‘they kind of suck at it but it’s okay’ to ‘that’s not acceptable.’”

• As AI takes over more specialist tasks, the value of generalists is rising.

• People who can generate ideas, anticipate consequences, and rally others around a vision will be most valuable.

• “Tools can handle the specialized knowledge – but only humans can connect it to purpose.”

• Brian warns that traditional job descriptions and org charts are becoming obsolete.

  • Instead of looking for ways to rush employees into doing more work, “rethink the roles. What can a small group do when aligned around a common purpose?”
  • The future lies in small, aligned teams with shared goals.

Vision Is Not a Strategy (15:56) * Robin reflects on durable human traits through Steve Jobs' bio by Isaac Walterson. * Jobs succeeded not just with tech, but with taste, persuasion, charisma, and vision. + “He was less technologist, more storyteller.”

• They discuss Sam Altman, the subject of Empire of AI. Whether or not the book is fully accurate, Robin argues that Altman’s defining trait is deal-making.
• Robin shares his experience using ChatGPT in real estate.

• It changed how he researched topics like redwood root systems on foundational structure and mosquito mitigation.

• Despite the tech, both agree that human connection is more important than ever.

• “We need humans now more than ever.”

• Brian references data from Kelly Monahan showing AI power users are highly productive but deeply burned out.

• 40% more productive than their peers.

• 88% are completely burnt out.

• Many don’t believe their company’s AI strategy, even while using the tools daily.

• There's a growing disconnect between executive AI hype and on-the-ground experience.

  • But internal tests by top engineers showed only 10% improvement, mostly in simple tasks.
  • “You’ve got to get into the tools yourself to be fluent on this.”
  • One CTO believed AI would produce 30% efficiency gains.
  • Brian urges leaders to personally engage with the tools before making sweeping decisions.

• He warns against blindly accepting optimistic vendor promises or trends.

• Leaders pushing AI without firsthand experience risk overburdening their teams.

• “You're bringing the Kool-Aid and then you're shoving it down your team's throat.”

• This results in burnout, not productivity.

• “You're cranking up the demands. You're cranking up the burnout, too.”
• “That’s not going to lead to what you want either.”

If You Want Control, Just Say That (20:47) * Robin raises the topic of returning to the office, which has been a long-standing area of interest for him.

+ “I interviewed Joel Gascoyne on stage in 2016… the largest fully distributed company in the world at the time.”

• He’s tracked distributed work since Responsive 2016.

• Also mentions Shelby Wolpa (ex-Envision), who scaled thousands remotely.

• Robin notes the shift post-COVID: companies are mandating returns without adjusting for today’s realities.”

• Example: “Intel just did a mandatory 4 days a week return to office… and now people live hours away.”

• He acknowledges the benefits of in-person collaboration, especially in creative or physical industries.

• “There is an undeniable utility.”, especially as they met in Robin’s Cafe to talk about Responsive, despite a commute, because it was worth it.

• But he challenges blanket return-to-office mandates, especially when the rationale is unclear.

• According to Brian, any company uses RTO as a veiled soft layoff tactic.

  • Cites Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy openly stating RTO is meant to encourage attrition. He says policies without clarity are ineffective.
  • “If you quit, I don’t have to pay you severance.”

• Robin notes that the Responsive Manifesto isn’t about providing answers but outlining tensions to balance.

• Before enforcing an RTO policy, leaders should ask: “What problem are we trying to solve – and do we have evidence of it?”

Before You Mandate, Check the Data (24:50) * Performance data should guide decisions, not executive assumptions.

+ For instance, junior salespeople may benefit from in-person mentorship, but… That may only apply to certain teams, and doesn’t justify full mandates.

• “I've seen situations where productivity has fallen – well-defined productivity.”

• The decision-making process should be decentralized and nuanced.

  • Different teams have different needs — orgs must avoid one-size-fits-all policies, especially in large, distributed orgs.
  • “Should your CEO be making that decision? Or should your head of sales?”

• Brian offers a two-part test for leaders to assess their RTO logic:

• Are you trying to attract and retain the best talent?

• Are your teams co-located or distributed?

• If the answer to #1 is yes:

  • People will be less engaged, not more.
  • High performers will quietly leave or disengage while staying.
  • Forcing long commutes will hurt retention and morale.

• If the answer to #2 is “distributed”:

  • Brian then tells a story about a JPMorgan IT manager who asks Jamie Dimon for flexibility.
  • “It’s freaking stupid… it actually made it harder to do their core work.”

  • Instead, teams need to define shared norms and operating agreements.

    • “Teams have to have norms to be effective.”
    • RTO makes even less sense.
    • His team spanned time zones and offices, forcing them into daily hurt collaboration.
    • He argues most RTO mandates are driven by fear and a desire for control.

• More important than office days are questions like:

• What hours are we available for meetings?
• What tools do we use and why?
• How do we make decisions?

• Who owns which roles and responsibilities?

• The Bottom Line:

• The policy must match the structure.
• If teams are remote by design, dragging them into an office is counterproductive.

How to Be a Leader in Chaotic Times (28:34) * “We’re living in a more chaotic time than any in my lifetime.” * Robin asks how leaders should guide their organizations through uncertainty. * He reflects on his early work years during the 2008 crash and the unpredictability he’s seen since.

+ Observes current instability like the UCSF and NIH funding and hiring freezes disrupting universities, rising political violence, and murders of public officials from the McKnight Foundation, and more may persist for years without relief.

• “I was bussing tables for two weeks, quit, became a personal trainer… my old client jumped out a window because he lost his fortune as a banker.”

• Brian says what’s needed now is:

• Resilience – a mindset of positive realism: acknowledging the issues, while focusing on agency and possibility, and supporting one another.

• Trust – not just psychological safety, but deep belief in leadership clarity and honesty.

• His definition of resilience includes:

• “What options do we have?”
• “What can we do as a team?”
• “What’s the opportunity in this?”

What Builds Trust (and What Breaks It) (31:00) * Brian recalls laying off more people than he hired during the dot-com bust – and what helped his team endure: + “Here’s what we need to do. If you’re all in, we’ll get through this together.”

• He believes trust is built when:
• Leaders communicate clearly and early.
• They acknowledge difficulty, without sugarcoating.
• They create clarity about what matters most right now.

• They involve their team in solutions.

• He critiques companies that delay communication until they’re in PR cleanup mode:

• Like Target’s CEO, who responded to backlash months too late – and with vague platitudes.
• “Of course, he got backlash,” Brian says. “He wasn’t present.”
• According to him, “Trust isn’t just psychological safety. It’s also honesty.”

Trust Makes Work Faster, Better, and More Fun (34:10) * “When trust is there, the work is more fun, and the results are better.” * Robin offers a Zander Media story: + Longtime collaborator Jonathan Kofahl lives in Austin. + Despite being remote, they prep for shoots with 3-minute calls instead of hour-long meetings. + The relationship is fast, fluid, and joyful, and the end product reflects that.

• He explains the ripple effects of trust:
• Faster workflows
• Higher-quality output
• More fun and less burnout
• Better client experience

• Fewer miscommunications or dropped balls

• He also likens it to acrobatics:

• “If trust isn’t there, you land on your head.”

Seldom Wrong, Never in Doubt (35:45) * “Seldom wrong, never in doubt – that bit me in the butt.” * Brian reflects on a toxic early-career mantra: + As a young consultant, he was taught to project confidence at all times. + It was said that “if you show doubt, you lose credibility,” especially with older clients.

• Why that backfired:
• It made him arrogant.
• It discouraged honest questions or collaborative problem-solving.

• It modeled bad leadership for others.

• Brian critiques the startup world’s hero culture:

• Tech glorifies mavericks and contrarians, people who bet against the grain and win.

• But we rarely see the 95% who bet big and failed, and the survivors become models, often with toxic effects.

• The real danger:

• Leaders try to imitate success without understanding the context.

• Contrarianism becomes a virtue in itself – even when it’s wrong.

• Now, he models something else:

  • “I can point to the mountain, but I don’t know the exact path.”
  • Leaders should admit they don’t have all the answers.
  • Inviting the team to figure it out together builds alignment and ownership.
  • That’s how you lead through uncertainty, by trusting your team to co-create.

Slack, Remote Work, and the Birth of Future Forum (37:40) * Brian recalls the early days of Future Forum: + Slack was deeply office-centric pre-pandemic. + He worked 5 days a week in SF, and even interns were expected to show up regularly. + Slack’s leadership, especially CTO Cal Henderson, was hesitant to go remote, not because they were anti-remote, but because they didn’t know how.

• But when COVID hit, Slack, like everyone else, had to figure out remote work in real time.

• Brian had long-standing relationships with Slack’s internal research team:

  • He pitched Stewart Butterfield (Slack’s CEO) on the idea of a think tank, where he was then joined by Helen Kupp and Sheela Subramanian, who became his co-founders in the venture. Thus, Future Forum was born.
  • Christina Janzer, Lucas Puente, and others.
  • Their research was excellent, but mostly internal-facing, used for product and marketing.
  • Brian, self-described as a “data geek,” saw an opportunity:

Remote Work Increased Belonging, But Not for Everyone (40:56) * In mid-2020, Future Forum launched its first major study. + Expected finding: employee belonging would drop due to isolation. + Reality: it did, but not equally across all demographics.

• For Black office workers, a sense of belonging actually increased.
• Future Forum brought in Dr. Brian Lowery, a Black professor at Stanford, to help interpret the results.
• Lowery explained:
• “I’m a Black professor at Stanford. Whatever you think of it as a liberal school, if I have to walk on that campus five days a week and be on and not be Black five days a week, 9 to 5 – it’s taxing. It’s exhausting. If I can dial in and out of that situation, it’s a release.”

A Philosophy Disguised as a Playbook (42:00) * Brian, Helen, and Sheela co-authored a book that distilled lessons from: + Slack’s research + Hundreds of executive conversations + Real-world trials during the remote work shift

• One editor even commented on how the book is “more like a philosophy book disguised as a playbook.”

• The key principles are:

  • “Start with what matters to us as an organization. Then ask: What’s safe to try?”
  • Policies don’t work. Principles do.
  • Norms > mandates. Team-level agreements matter more than companywide rules.
  • Focus on outcomes, not activity.
  • Train your managers. Clarity, trust, and support start there.
  • Safe-to-try experiments. Iterate fast and test what works for your team.
  • Co-create team norms. Define how decisions get made, what tools get used, and when people are available.

• What’s great with the book is that no matter where you are, this same set of rules still applies.

When Leadership Means Letting Go (43:54) * “My job was to model the kind of presence I wanted my team to show.” * Robin recalls a defining moment at Robin’s Café: + Employees were chatting behind the counter while a banana peel sat on the floor, surrounded by dirty dishes. It was a lawsuit waiting to happen. + His first impulse was to berate them, a habit from his small business upbringing. + But in that moment, he reframed his role. “I’m here to inspire, model, and demonstrate the behavior I want to see.”

• He realized:
• Hovering behind the counter = surveillance, not leadership.
• True leadership = empowering your team to care, even when you’re not around.

• You train your manager to create a culture, not compliance.

• Brian and Robin agree:

• Rules only go so far.

• Teams thrive when they believe in the ‘why’ behind the work.

• Robin draws a link between strong workplace culture and…

• The global rise of authoritarianism

• The erosion of trust in institutions

• If trust makes Zander Media better, and helps VC-backed companies scale —

• “Why do our political systems seem to be rewarding the exact opposite?”

Populism, Charisma & Bullshit (45:20) * According to Robin, “We’re in a world where trust is in very short supply.” * Brian reflects on why authoritarianism is thriving globally:

+ The media is fragmented. Everyone’s in different pocket universes.
+ People now get news from YouTube or TikTok, not trusted institutions.
+ Truth is no longer shared, and without shared truth, trust collapses.

• “Walter Cronkite doesn’t exist anymore.”

• He references Andor, where the character, Mon Mothma, says:

  • People no longer trust journalism, government, universities, science, or even business.
  • Edelman’s Trust Barometer dipped for business leaders for the first time in 25 years.
  • CEOs who once declared strong values are now going silent, which damages trust even more.
  • “The death of truth is really the problem that’s at work here.”

• Robin points out: Trump and Elon, both charismatic, populist figures, continue to gain power despite low trust.

• Why? Because their clarity and simplicity still outperform thoughtful leadership.

• He also calls Trump a “marketing genius.”

• Brian’s frustration:

  • Case in point: Trump-era officials who spread conspiracy theories now can’t walk them back.
  • Populists manufacture distrust, then struggle to govern once in power.

• He shares a recent example:

  • Result: Their base turned on them.
  • Right-wing pundits (Pam Bondi, Dan Bongino) fanned Jeffrey Epstein conspiracies.
  • But in power, they had to admit: “There’s no client list publicly.”

• Brian then suggests that trust should be rebuilt locally.

• He points to leaders like Zohran Mamdani (NY):
• “I may not agree with all his positions, but he can articulate a populist vision that isn’t exploitative.”

Where Are the Leaders? (51:19) * Brian expresses frustration at the silence from people in power: + “I’m disappointed, highly disappointed, in the number of leaders in positions of power and authority who could lend their voice to something as basic as: science is real.”

• He calls for a return to shared facts:

• “Let’s just start with: vaccines do not cause autism. Let’s start there.”

• He draws a line between public health and trust:

• We’ve had over a century of scientific evidence backing vaccines

• But misinformation is eroding communal health

• Brian clarifies: this isn’t about wedge issues like guns or Roe v. Wade

• The problem is that scientists lack public authority, but CEOs don't
• CEOs of major institutions could shift the narrative, especially those with massive employee bases. And yet, most say nothing:

• “They know it’s going to bite them… and still, no one’s saying it.”

• He warns: ignoring this will hurt businesses, frontline workers, and society at large.

89 Seconds from Midnight (52:45) * Robin brings up the Doomsday Clock:

+ Historically, it was 2–4 minutes to midnight

• “We are 89 seconds to midnight.” (as of January 2025)

• This was issued by the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, a symbol of how close humanity is to destroying itself.

• Despite that, he remains hopeful:

• “I might be the most energetic person in any room – and yet, I’m a prepper.”

• Robin shared that:

  • And in a real emergency?

    • You might not make it.
    • He grew up in the wilderness, where ambulances don’t arrive, and CPR is a ritual of death.
    • He frequently visits Vieques, an island off Puerto Rico with no hospital, where a car crash likely means you won’t survive. As there is a saying there that goes, ‘No Hay Hospital', meaning ‘there is no hospital’. If something serious happens, you’re likely a few hours’ drive or even a flight away from medical care.

• That shapes his worldview:

• “We’ve forgotten how precious life is in privileged countries.”

• Despite his joy and optimism, Robin is also:

• Deeply aware of fragility – of systems, bodies, institutions.
• Committed to preparation, not paranoia.
• Focused on teaching resilience, care, and responsibility.

How to Raise Men with Heart and Backbone (55:00) Robin asks:

• “How do you counsel your boys to show up as protectors and earners, especially in a capitalist world, while also taking care of people, especially when we’re facing the potential end of humanity in our lifetimes?”
• Brian responds:
• His sons are now 25 and 23, and he’s incredibly proud of who they’re becoming.

• Credits both parenting and luck but he also acknowledges many friends who’ve had harder parenting experiences.

• His sons are:

• Sharp and thoughtful
• In healthy relationships

• Focused on values over achievements

• Educational path:

  • “They think deeply about what are now called ‘social justice’ issues in a very real way.”

    • Example: In 4th grade, their class did a homelessness simulation – replicating the fragmented, frustrating process of accessing services.
    • Preschool at the Jewish Community Center
    • Elementary at a Quaker school in San Francisco
    • He jokes that they needed a Buddhist high school to complete the loop
    • Not religious, but values-based, non-dogmatic education had a real impact
    • That hands-on empathy helped them see systemic problems early on, especially in San Francisco, where it’s worse.

What Is Actually Enough? (56:54) * “We were terrified our kids would take their comfort for granted.” * Brian’s kids: + Lived modestly, but comfortably in San Francisco. + Took vacations, had more than he and his wife did growing up. + Worried their sons would chase status over substance.

• But what he taught them instead:
• Family matters.
• Friendships matter.
• Being dependable matters.

• Not just being good, but being someone others can count on.

• He also cautioned against:

  • “We too often push kids toward something unattainable, and we act surprised when they burn out in the pursuit of that.”
  • The “gold ring” mentality is like chasing elite schools, careers, and accolades.
  • In sports and academics, he and his wife aimed for balance, not obsession.

Brian on Parenting, Purpose, and Perspective (59:15) * Brian sees promise in his kids’ generation:

+ But also more:

    - Purpose-driven
    - Skeptical of false promises
    - Less obsessed with traditional success markers

• Yes, they’re more stressed and overamped on social media.

• Gen Z has been labeled just like every generation before:

• “I’m Gen X. They literally made a movie about us called Slackers.”

• He believes the best thing we can do is:

• Model what matters
• Spend time reflecting: What really does matter?
• Help the next generation define enough for themselves, earlier than we did.

The Real Measure of Success (1:00:07) * Brian references Clay Christensen, famed author of The Innovator’s Dilemma and How Will You Measure Your Life? * Clay’s insight:

+ “Success isn’t what you thought it was.”

• Early reunions are full of bravado – titles, accomplishments, money.
• Later reunions reveal divorce, estrangement, and regret.

• The longer you go, the more you see:

• Brian’s takeaway:

• Even for Elon, it might be about Mars.

• But for most of us, it’s not about how many projects we shipped.

• It’s about:

• Family
• Friends
• Presence

• Meaning

• “If you can realize that earlier, you give yourself the chance to adjust – and find your way back.”

Where to Find Brian (01:02:05) * LinkedIn * WorkForward.com * Newsletter: The Work Forward on Substack

• “Some weeks it’s lame, some weeks it’s great. But there’s a lot of community and feedback.”
• And of course, join us at Responsive Conference this September 17-18, 2025.

Books Mentioned * How Will You Measure Your Life? by Clayton Christensen * The Innovator’s Dilemma by Clayton Christensen * Responsive Manifesto * Empire of AI by Karen Hao

Podcasts Mentioned * The Gap by Ira Glass * The Ezra Klein Show

Movies Mentioned * Andor * Slackers

Organizations Mentioned: * Bulletin of Atomic Scientists * McKnight Foundation * National Institutes of Health (NIH) * Responsive.org * University of California, San Francisco

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Hello and welcome back to Snafu, a podcast about behavior change.

Pamela Larde, PhD is a scholar and expert on the topic of joy. She is the author of Joyfully Single: A Revolutionary Guide to Enlightenment, Wholeness, and Change and a professor of Leadership Development at Anderson University. Her mission is to help develop leaders who lead with heart.

Pamela illustrates the role of joy as a powerful tool, empowering individuals to cultivate resilience and gracefully navigate the myriad challenges life presents. Through her teachings, the concept of joy transforms into more than just an emotion—it becomes a reservoir of strength, an anchor of optimism, and a guide to living life to the fullest.

In this episode, we talk about the importance of joy at work and in life, the difference between happiness and joy, what to expect from her at Responsive Conference, and more.

Pamela is an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven’t yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets

It was a pleasure having Pamela on the podcast!

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Hello and welcome back to Snafu, a podcast about behavior change.

For today’s episode, I sat down with Carole Robin, PhD – an expert in leadership development and interpersonal dynamics. She is best known for her work at Stanford Graduate School of Business, where she taught the infamous "Interpersonal Dynamics" course. This course is considered one of the most transformative experiences for MBA students.

Her expertise in this field led her to co-author the book Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends and Colleagues, which was featured as one of Bloomberg's Best Books of 2021.

In this episode, we talk about the key to great leadership, why relationships are so important in your life, what we can expect from her at Responsive Conference 2024, and more.

Carole is an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven’t yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets

It was a pleasure having Carole on the podcast!

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Hello and welcome back to Snafu, a podcast about behavior change.!

For today’s episode, I sat down with Michael Melcher – author, executive coach, and lawyer. He's best known for his book Your Invisible Network: How to Create, Maintain, and Leverage the Relationships That Will Transform Your Career, a practical guide on building meaningful relationships.

Michael’s background includes a law degree from Harvard Law School and experience in both law and consulting. He writes and speaks on topics related to career management, personal development, and leadership.

In this episode, we talk about how to network effectively without feeling awkward, the importance of nurturing relationships every single day, how personal experiences have shaped Michael’s understanding of community and connection, and more.

Michael is also an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven’t yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets

It was a pleasure having Michael on the podcast!

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Hello and welcome back to Snafu, a podcast about behavior change.!

For today’s episode, I sat down with Abby Davisson, former president of the Gap Foundation, and author who has worked in the fields of social impact and corporate philanthropy. Abby believes in using business to make positive changes in society.

She recently published a book called Money and Love: An Intelligent Roadmap for Life's Biggest Decisions. In this book, she talks about how to make important choices in life, especially when it comes to balancing money concerns with personal relationships and happiness.

In this episode, we talk about social impact through work, money being more taboo than sex, going from intern to president at Gap Foundation, why her graduate degree was the best investment of her life, and much more.

Abby is also an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven’t yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets

It was a pleasure having Abby on the podcast!

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Hello and welcome back to Snafu, a podcast about behavior change!

For today’s episode, I sat down with Alex Soojung-Kim Pang, a Silicon Valley-based author, consultant, and researcher famous for advocating for the 4-day work week.

Alex has become a leading advocate for the concept of "deliberate rest" through his books Rest: Why You Get More Done When You Work Less and Work Less, Do More.

Alex challenges traditional notions of productivity, arguing that strategic periods of rest and shorter working hours lead to higher productivity, more creativity, and better job satisfaction.

In this episode, we talk about why we should work less and not more, the importance of deliberate rest in work, breaking work down into smaller tasks, and much more.

Alex is also an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven’t yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets

It was a pleasure having Alex on the podcast!

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Hello and welcome back to The Robin Zander Show!

For today’s episode, I sat down with Sally Thornton, the founder and CEO of Forshay.

Forshay is a company that specializes in executive recruiting and improving workplace dynamics through diversity and inclusion. She has a background in creating innovative solutions for work-life balance and has been a speaker at various conferences, including TEDx talks.

In this episode, Sally and I talk about the science of work, how to be a good leader, doing work you love, and much more.

Sally is also an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven’t yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets

It was a pleasure having Sally on the podcast!

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Hello and welcome back to The Robin Zander Show!

For today’s episode, I sat down with Michael Bugay Steiner, author of books that have sold a million copies, including The Coaching Habit, a self-published book that’s become the best-selling book on coaching this century.

Michael Bungay Stanier is a speaker and executive coach. As the founder of Box of Crayons, he's trained thousands of managers in coaching skills. Michael’s work focuses on helping people unlock their potential and create more effective workplace cultures.

In this episode, Michael and I talk about turning your weaknesses into strengths, giving feedback the right way, talking about how to work together before you actually work together, and much more.

It was a pleasure having Michael on the podcast!

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Hello and welcome back to The Robin Zander Show!

For today’s episode, I sat down with New York Times bestselling author, Charles Duhigg.

In this episode, Charles and I talk about the art of communication and the insights from his new book, "Super Communicators." We explore how effective communication is a skill that anyone can learn, focusing on the importance of asking deep questions to connect with others.Charles shares his experiences, including lessons from his time as a reporter in Iraq, and how understanding the types of conversations – practical, emotional, and social – can improve relationships.

It was a pleasure having Charles on the podcast! Find his book here: https://www.charlesduhigg.com/supercommunicators

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The Habit of Doing Hard Things I appreciate the irony. Do hard things, move to the Caribbean!

And while most of us probably aren’t going to move to a tiny island in order to make our lives more difficult, there are a lot of simple habits that can help.

Identify One Thing Every Day That Scares You

Identify something that scares you.

• Notice someone you are intimidated by.
• Recognize a moment when you avoided speaking up.
• Identify one moment in your day when you feel physically nervous or afraid.

You don’t need to take action – not yet! Just bring attention to one uncomfortable moment.

Start with awareness.

A Daily Movement Practice

There is a lot to be said for daily exercise.

Exercise is hard. When you push your physical limits, you get better at pushing the boundaries of what’s possible everywhere else in your life, too.

Unfortunately, more than two thirds of Americans are overweight or obese, so clearly pressuring people to exercise does work for everyone.

My approach to movement is different. Having broken my neck and then gone on to perform in the circus, I also know the consequences of pressure. Instead, I make a habit of moving every day to build the confidence that I can learn new things.

If you’re interested, here’s a short video about my movement practice.

Coffee Shop Challenge (h/t Tim Ferriss)

Try this challenge: go to your local coffee shop and ask for a 20% discount.

The rules are that you are not allowed to give any explanation for why you are requesting a discount or any additional details alongside your request. If asked, “Why?” just say that you would like a discount and that is why you are asking.

The point of this exercise is that you are going to be uncomfortable. It will take you outside of your comfort zone.

Notice how it feels to make this request. Notice the tension in your body and your voice. It doesn’t ultimately matter if you get a discount or not, so long as you try.

As a former coffee shop owner, please give that 20% back to your barista as a tip!

Do Something Difficult Every Day

Do one thing today that is out of your comfort zone. It could be as small as a short exchange with a stranger, a much-needed conversation, or advocating for your opinion.

• Thank someone in their native language - If you first have to learn to say “thank you” in a language you don’t speak, all the better.
• Have a conversation with your spouse or a friend - You probably have something that you’ve been meaning to share, but haven’t gotten around to saying yet. Say it!
• Try to persuade someone of something - We are all selling to and inviting each other constantly. Advocate for your preferred restaurant or movie.

When my friends first moved to Vieques, I was skeptical. I’m all for beautiful ocean views, but it was so remote and isolated. (And the hurricanes!)

Now that I’ve spent a month living in that remote paradise, I understand their motivation a little better. Living there is difficult. Every day is a stretch. And that’s the point!

In a world where I – and probably you – enjoy every other modern convenience, it is easy to get complacent.

Perhaps, we could all use a bit more discomfort in our lives.

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There are a lot of things about being an entrepreneur that I avoid, but one of the silliest is opening physical mail. When I was starting Robin’s Cafe, I got a lot of mail - plans from the San Francisco planning department, legal documents, food permitting, alcohol permitting, pest control notifications, more.

I was so busy figuring out the day-to-day of running the business that I developed the bad habit of just ignoring mail and leaving the pile to build up on my desk for weeks on end.

When I finally got around to dealing with the pile, there was always a notice that I’d ignored for too long - a vendor I was late to pay, an IRS document I’d missed, etc. As we all do when a task is too big, I came to dread opening my mail.

Failure as discouragement

When you fail at a task, the experience is often one of discouragement, and that discouragement leads to a diminished desire to attempt that same task in the future. As I discussed recently, success is usually tied to positive feelings and the release of dopamine. Negative feelings often have the opposite effect and result in a feedback loop of negativity and failure. For me, that meant avoiding the mail until I discovered late bills, which meant I’d continue to dread opening mail and let it pile up further.

Failure is often a sign that the task you are trying to undertake is too big. A trick, then, is to leverage the cue of the negative feelings of “I can’t do this” into action and try again, but make the next attempt different. One way to do this is to break the task down into smaller parts.

Make the next step smaller

When you are overwhelmed by a new behavior, the easiest way to tackle it is by making the next step smaller.

I don’t need to open and respond to all of my mail on the day it arrives. A small step is to open every envelope, even if I don’t take the mail out right away. This small step moves things forward and makes the next steps - removing the contents, reading them, responding - easier.

Take your large goal and just take one small step in the right direction.

Create positive associations

I have a letter opener that I really love - it is a beautiful folding knife with an olivewood handle. I’ve learned, in the years since Robin’s Cafe, that I derive a particular delight in opening mail with this knife.

Look for ways that you can create positive associations around the edges of the habit you’ve been avoiding. Positive feelings equate to feelings of success.

Play more

Play and self-judgment are antithetical. When we are being playful or curious with a habit, it is impossible to regard an outcome as a “failure.”

The best way I know how to play - especially when I’m not feeling playful - is to get profoundly curious about the task I’m trying to accomplish. Another is to make a game of the process. Personally, I get delighted when I see weeks worth of dealt-with mail pile up in my recycling bin!

Look for a step by step breakdown

You can almost always find a step-by-step breakdown of the task you are trying to accomplish. Google “how to do x” or interview someone better at that thing than you are. If you’ve hit a roadblock and aren’t sure how to make a task more manageable, someone else has likely solved this problem before you. In writing this article, I asked a few friends about how they handled their daily deluge of mail and got some interesting ideas I’ll try in the future!

At Zander Media, I receive 10x less physical mail than I did at the cafe. And while there are still remnants of my avoidant behavior, I’m excited to reframe failure as a cue for novel action. These days, I look for areas of my life where I’ve historically failed and replace the cue of failure with the understanding that I haven’t made that behavior small enough, yet.

Now, your turn: what’s something you’ve failed at, recently? Reply back and I’ll respond with one idea for how to turn that failure into a learning opportunity!

Until next time, Robin

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I’m traveling with my family to Mexico for two weeks this winter. The trip is a throwback to holidays from my childhood. Every other year, my family avoided the holidays altogether and traveled to Latin America. As a kid, I was sad to miss the holidays, but in retrospect those international trips were formative. This will be the first family trip in a decade and the first time with my nephews (7 and 10).

Know why When I took a month-long trip with my mother to Ghana, I had to get very clear in the months leading up to the trip why I was going. And my purpose for taking the trip wasn’t to have a great experience.

Visiting Ghana was a lifelong dream of my mother’s and a trip she wouldn’t have attempted alone. My primary reason for going to Africa was to support her; to facilitate her having a positive experience.

As you are heading into an experience with family, ask yourself why you are prioritizing spending time in this way:

• What are you hoping to get out of it?
• What do you want for your family members?

The more clearly you know why, the better you will be at boundaries and making productive use of the time.

Habit: Write down 10 different reasons “why” you are taking the action that you are. They won’t all feel true, but you’ll find something new through the exercise.

There’s no problem so big you can’t walk away I use this phrase, which is oft repeated by a close friend, to remind myself that I have agency. We always have the ability to leave – even when it feels like we don't.

It is something of a cardinal sin in my family to leave a conversation or issue unresolved. And yet I’m always calmer for stepping away for ten minutes and coming back to the issue later.

Any of us is free to take a break or walk away at any time.

Habit: Remind yourself, maybe even aloud, that “There’s no problem so big I can’t walk away.” Repeating that serves as a reminder that you are not stuck in a difficult situation.

Take a pee break Years ago, a friend taught me the trick of taking a “pee break.” Maybe you actually need to use the toilet, but that's beside the point.

The goal is that when you are upset you take a couple of minutes to reorient yourself and come back refreshed.

Under very few circumstances is it considered socially inappropriate to take a couple of minutes out of a conversation “because I have to use the restroom.” And often you come back better able to handle whatever challenge has been going on.

Habit: Practice “taking a pee break” when the stakes are low. During an otherwise unheated conversation say, “I'll be back in 2 minutes. I need to use the restroom.” The better you get at taking a break, the better you’ll be able to when things get heated.

Therapy with family I'm a proponent of facilitated conversation: therapy, coaching or anything else that works for you.

In advance of our trip to Ghana, my mother and I went to therapy together. The objective was to create some guidelines about what we might expect while we were traveling in Africa, and how to collaborate better.

My mother and I walked out of therapy with a new willingness to listen to each other, which led to a gentler trip in Ghana then might have happened otherwise. (It was still an intense experience!)

Habit: Organize a facilitated conversation. It might not change anything, but it might also result in less drama.

Family meetings We had regular family meetings growing up. Once every few weeks, our family of four would sit down and discuss challenges that had come up recently.

I don't remember what got discussed, but “let’s have a family meeting” remains my family’s shorthand when communication is getting tough.

Habit: Schedule a brief “family meeting.” The goal isn't to change anybody's behavior, but to create space for airing of grievances – so they don't bubble over at inopportune times.

​

As I get ready to spend two weeks in close quarters with my family in Mexico, I know that I am going to need to practice a lot of these habits and tools. I hope that one of these habits is useful for you as you head into your own holiday plans.

Until next time, Robin

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I've always believed that in order to acknowledge what’s going well in my life, I have to first solve any difficult emotional situations. Over the last few years, I've come to realize that it is often more effective to focus on the positive, instead of first trying to solve the negative.

Instead of waiting for things to go just right, it's more effective – and more fun – to focus on what is already going well. Here are some tools that can help…

Celebrate the small things By celebrating the small things that are going well – no matter how small they are – we get more practice celebrating. Don’t wait for things to go well in order to celebrate. Practice and you'll be surprised at how quickly you feel good about seemingly mundane things in your life.

Habit: First thing each morning, write down one small thing that went well from the day before.

Flip the judgement I have daily practice with my best friend: we phone each other and inquire “Is there a judgment that you would like to flip?”

We pick a negative judgment – that we’re holding about ourselves or in the world around us – and look for the positive.

• If I’m berating myself for a misunderstanding with my mother, I’ll look for ways in which that misunderstanding could be beneficial.
• If I’m judging myself for pushing through an injury, I’ll examine how that pain could actually be helpful and result in recovery.

By taking something that you are judging as bad and looking for the positive in that same example, you are "flipping the judgement” and practicing gratitude.

Habit:Flipping judgements requires a lot of mental dexterity, so start small. Pick something small that you are judging as bad. Write a few sentences about how that situation could, hypothetically, be beneficial.

Worst case scenario Tim Ferriss popularized the idea of “fear setting” through this TED talk. The purpose is to identify the worst case scenarios, which usually turns out to not be quite so bad.

My worst case scenario usually ends up with me shitting my pants in public and leaving the country in humiliation. But even in my hypothetical worst case scenarios, I usually survive and learn from the experience.

For extra credit, you can also explore the Best case scenario!

Habit: When you’re considering something you are scared of, ask yourself “What’s the worst thing that could happen?” Write down a few of your answers.

What went well exercise What went well is my favorite among the many exercises Martin Seligman, teaches in his book Flourish.

Historically, psychology research focused on “abnormal” psychology or problems to be solved. More than 30 years ago, Seligman began researching and teaching tools that help everyone improve.

One exercise that Seligman teaches is “What went well.” Very simply, the practice is to list out three things every day that have gone well.

The practice forces you to focus on the specifics of what has gone well. By bringing attention to them, you recognize them, reinforce them and make them bigger.

Habit: Write down three things that went well for you in the last day.

Feel shine In Tiny Habits, BJ Fogg coined the word “Shine” to describe the internal positive emotion we give ourselves when we’ve done something well. When we reward ourselves with that internal feeling of celebration, we create a positive feedback loop. For more on Shine, here’s an article on the topic from TED.

Habit: Take 2 minutes and deliberately feel good about something you’ve done today. Pat yourself on the back, pump your fist or smile in the mirror.

Look for awe I was sitting in the sauna a few weeks ago and struck up a conversation with UC Berkeley Professor Dacher Keltne, who has spent his career studying awe.

As we began to talk about his research I was reminded of the life changing moment when I first saw the circus. My parents took me to see Cirque du Soleil's Alegria, shortly after I began studying gymnastics at 17 years old. Watching the acrobats opened my eyes to what the human body is capable of and led to the last few decades of my movement career.

Awe has the capacity to fundamentally change our perspective and widen our world view.

(I’m also going to attend the professor’s last class of the year next week. I'll report back)

Habit: Seek out awe. Whether through a beautiful view, over a meal with family or in listening to great music, look for an experience of awe. When you open yourself to the feeling of awe, you’re more likely to experience it.

​ As you spend time with friends and family this holiday weekend, or go about your life, I hope one of these tools is helpful.

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Everything You Know About Sales is Wrong Everything in life is sales. From inviting your child to do her homework, to deciding where to go for dinner, to encouraging a colleague at work, the situations we encounter daily are filled with the dynamic of sales and persuasion. And, unfortunately, most of what you know about sales is wrong.

What is Sales? My favorite example of sales comes from a scene from the classic Christmas movie Miracle on 34th Street.

In Miracle, the Macy’s department store Santa asks each child who sits on his lap what they want for Christmas. Santa then tells the family where they can purchase that toy at the best price, even if it means at a competing department store. At first, the store manager is outraged that Santa is supporting his competitors - until he sees enthusiastic customers returning to Macy’s because of the excellent customer service. The value to Macy’s of Santa’s recommendations is greater than the sale of a single children’s toy; it’s customer loyalty.

Sales is having a clear solution – a service, opportunity or opinion – that can help to solve somebody’s problem. Like Santa, good sales means aligning yourself with the interests of the person you are talking to, to discover if your solution is a good fit for them. If it is, invite them toward your solution, and if not, move on.

How to Do It Wrong Sales and persuasion are most often practiced with pressure and urgency.

Think of the reputation of a car salesman – pushy, fast-talking, deceptive. They aren’t considering what is best for the customer. They only want to sell a specific car at the best possible price. The result: nobody enjoys the experience and the customer won’t recommend that product or service in the future.

Pressure and urgency can work, but only in the short-term. They don’t increase trust or loyalty.

How to Do It Right A Process of Discovery Done well, sales and persuasion should be a process of discovery. Instead of using force, inquire about what your friend wants to eat for dinner. Get curious about why your colleague doesn’t want to do the work assigned to them.

When you start by asking questions about what someone is looking to solve – for themselves, their business, or their family – you'll discover if what you are selling is a good fit for the other person.

People relate through the stories that you tell them, so share your experience, too. As I discussed in “Everything is Storytelling,” your story should be brief, personal and relatable.

Useful Beliefs About Sales and Persuasion Abundance - If the person you are talking to doesn’t want the solution you are offering, somebody else will. There are between 7 and 8 billion people in the world today. If the person you are talking to is not a good fit, move on.

Believe it - Believe in what you are selling. That doesn’t mean that it is valuable to every single prospective buyer, only they can tell you that. But believing that it is valuable in the world makes closing easier, genuine, and fun.

Decrease the stakes - There are very few game changing moments in life, and this specific sale isn’t likely to be one of them. Whether or not you make this sale today isn’t likely to matter over the course of your or your customer’s life.

Autonomy - Foster the belief that everybody knows what's best for themselves. You aren’t trying to convince anyone, but rather inviting them to entertain if what you’re offering is a good fit for them.

Look for “What I’ve learned” - It is useful to hold that even if you don't close a sale, you will have learned a lot along the way. This practice of iteration and repeated repetitions will make you better at closing future sales.

Put in the Reps Improving at sales is a matter of practice and incremental improvement. Many of the most successful salespeople and deal makers in the world have practiced tens of thousands of times. Sales is as much a performance as trying out for a sport or auditioning for a play, and practice makes for consistency.

Your Attitude Closes Deals Who you are and how you show up with a prospective customer is what will determine whether they buy. Who you are closes deals.

Maintain an attitude of enthusiasm and want what is best for the other person. You'll have a better chance of having things go your way.

​

Next time you are debating with your spouse about the dishes, trying to get your child to do their homework, or asking an employee to fill out their hours, think of Santa, sitting in Macy's department store, referring customers to the competition.

Until next time, Robin

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Two years ago, my best friend was diagnosed with Stage 3 breast cancer. Two months ago, I went through a breakup. Whether personally or globally, challenges arise.

• Someone you love dies.
• A friend lets you down.
• You’re forced to confront your own aging or an aging parent.

Grief is complicated. We aren’t taught much about it or how to deal with it.

It is important to take time to mourn a loss.

Here are some habits and practices that might help.

The role of emotions

Sometimes emotions are almost too much to handle. You’ll criticize yourself, or other people. You are less happy or healthy than you want to be. But, it turns out, without emotions, we are unable to function in the world.

There are some interesting studies done on the role of emotions. When someone suffers brain damage such that they can’t experience emotion, they are also unable to make decisions.

While you sometimes might prefer to do without emotions, the alternative is much worse. You can’t enjoy the beautiful things in life if you don’t also experience some of the challenges.

Habit: When you are grieving, find something in the same situation, however small, to be grateful for.

​

Take time to grieve

Grief sneaks up at random times. When you least expect it, you may see something that reminds you of someone who’s died and the upswell of emotion can be hard to handle.

It doesn’t have to be an actual death, either. The loss of a relationship, or even a missed opportunity can be something we need to grieve.

It helps to take time to grieve. Difficult emotions will still come up, but setting aside time does help.

Habit: During a difficult time, carve out at least one minute a day to be present to your emotions. I like to set an alarm on my phone as my cue. I prefer to write during this pause, but any reflective activity can help.

​

Don’t judge your process

Everyone’s process for getting over a challenging situation is different. It might mean going to therapy or bitching to a friend. I process emotions by waking up at 5 a.m. full of adrenaline and going for a hard run.

The key is not to judge yourself for the fact that you are grieving. Then you’re not only feeling bad, but you are beating yourself up about it, too.

Don’t judge your process.

Habit: Recognize what helps you. Take 10 minutes and write down a list of things that help you take care of yourself.

​

Grief takes the time that it takes

I was in a serious car accident last year. I knew that it would take some time to heal and I was gentle with myself for the first couple of weeks.

But a few weeks in, I started getting anxious to get back to my movement practice and the rest of my life. I wasn’t in pain, but I was still very shaken up and the added pressure didn’t help.

In all, it took more than six months to get back to baseline.

Just like healing from physical injury, grief can’t be rushed. Healing happens on its own time.

Habit: If you find yourself pressuring yourself to “get over it,” decide on a timeline. Give yourself one day, one week, or one month where you won’t pressure yourself to “be there” already.

​

Don’t use force

The Morningstar Company, which I wrote about in my book Responsive: What It Takes To Create A Thriving Organization, is one of the largest tomato manufacturers in the world. What makes the company unique is that it is self-managed by the employees.

One of the company’s two core tenets is “Don’t use force” in working with each other.

We’re accustomed to using anger, pressure, and blame at work – but at what cost? To the detriment of relationships, our own health, and building the habit of doing more in the future.

Instead of trying to force yourself to feel better, acknowledge your grief. Take time to feel what you are feeling.

Habit: You wouldn’t use force – physically or emotionally – with a young child or in an intimate moment with a partner. Treat yourself that same way, even if only for a moment.

​

We don’t get to control what happens to us or to the people we love.

(I can’t. If you’ve figured out how – please email me!)

But we do get to control how we respond.

Grief is a natural part of life. It is how we make sense of what’s happened and move forward.

When you’re going through a challenge, take the time to acknowledge your grief. I hope some of these habits help.

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Hello and welcome back to The Robin Zander Show! 

For this week’s episode, I sat down with Eden Full Goh, the founder & CEO of Mobot. 

Eden founded Mobot, a physical testing infrastructure in the cloud after her experience as a Product Manager. She noticed how challenging it was to do regression testing on mobile apps and created Mobot as the solution. 

In this episode, we take a deep dive into her experience learning how to Coxswain (leading a team of rowers) and how that ties into entrepreneurship. We also talk about the companies she built leading up to Mobot and her experience as a Thiel Fellow. 

It was a pleasure sitting down to chat. I hope you enjoy this spirited and comprehensive conversation! 

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Hello and welcome back to The Robin Zander Show!

For this week’s episode, I sat down with my longtime colleague and friend, Katie Stricker. Katie is the Co-Founder, President, and Chief Coaching Officer at Sayge, a tech-enabled service that provides companies with accessible coaching services. Having worked with a coach for 14 years, Katie knew the importance of coaching and seldom saw it offered beyond C-Suite employees. Sayge has been around for over 6 years and coaches people in all positions, from CEO to Administrative Assistant. We sat down to talk about her history with coaching, what it takes to run a thriving organization, and the transition from Co-Founder to Leader.

It was a joy to sit down with Katie and learn more about her story and Sayge. Enjoy!

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Hello and welcome back to The Robin Zander Show!

For today’s episode, I sat down with my dear friend, Rajkumari Neogy.

Rajkumari is the founder of iRestart and an executive coach utilizing epigenetics and neurobiology to understand clients and shift communication across organizations. He uses the intersection of technology, culture, and empathic language to address complex and deep-rooted problems in individuals and businesses. All while making you feel heard, seen, safe, and taken care of. It was a great joy to sit down with him and hear more about his work, the impact that trauma has on each and every one of us, and the experiences that led him to coaching.

You can learn more about him and his work here: https://rajkumarineogy.com/ 

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Hello and welcome back to The Robin Zander Show!  Today’s episode was recorded right before going on stage at Culture Summit 2022.  I spoke on a panel called Trends and Insights that will Shape The Future of Work in 2022 and Beyond about becoming more of ourselves through the work we do. In this episode I talk about embracing the energy I feel before going on stage and the vocal prep work i’ve been doing with my voice coach. 

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Hello and welcome back to the Robin Zander Show!

Today’s episode is a panel discussion I participated in at @Culture Summit 2022 called Trends and Insights that will Shape The Future of Work in 2022 and Beyond.

We cover remote & distributed work, empathy in the workplace, how to show up as a full human at work, and the responsibility of organizations.

A pleasure to join this incredible group onstage:
Lisa Paredes
Lauren Guilbeaux
🏡 Kim Rohrer

And thanks to organizer Hung for having me. I hope you enjoy

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Welcome back to the Robin Zander Show! Today's episode is a talk I gave to a group called First Founders.

Based in Lagos, Nigeria, First Founders is a group of venture capitalists and entrepreneurs who build, scale and fund startups based out of Africa.

I sat down with a group of founders and VC's to share some of my personal stories from founding businesses. From building Robin's Cafe, to Responsive Conference and Zander Media, I talk about what I learned along the way.

It was an honor to speak at their conference. I hope you enjoy!

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Welcome back to the Robin Zander Show! Today's episode is an interview I did on my friend Lar Schmidt's Redefining HR podcast. 

In this interview, we discuss my atypical career path, creativity and digital storytelling, and our work in video at Zander Media. We also talk about Zander Media's new documentary, “Parenthood @ Work.”

I've long admired Lars and his work at Amplify Talent, so it was a pleasure to sit down with him and talk about the future of HR and the importance of people. 

Enjoy!

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Welcome back to The Robin Zander Show! Today’s episode is one I did with Jamie Ceglarz, Co-founder and Managing Member of the Operators Guild & Guild Talent. Ran by Jamie, both organizations provide a community for excellent operators, COOs who are in charge of running sophisticated organizations.

Jamie and I discuss problem solving processes’, learning from each other's similarities and differences and finding your driving North Star. We also talk about our entrepreneurial endeavors and the organizational importance of self starters, specifically in the Operators world.

It was a pleasure to sit down with Jamie, you can find more about him, The Operators Guild and Guild Talent here:
https://operators-guild.com/
https://guildtalent.com/
Or reach out directly: jamie@guildtalent.com

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Welcome back to The Robin Zander Show! Today’s episode is one I did with Jamie Ceglarz, Co-founder and Managing Member of the Operators Guild & Guild Talent. Ran by Jamie, both organizations provide a community for excellent operators, COOs who are in charge of running sophisticated organizations.

Jamie and I discuss problem solving processes’, learning from each other's similarities and differences and finding your driving North Star. We also talk about our entrepreneurial endeavors and the organizational importance of self starters, specifically in the Operators world.

It was a pleasure to sit down with Jamie, you can find more about him, The Operators Guild and Guild Talent here:
https://operators-guild.com/
https://guildtalent.com/
Or reach out directly: jamie@guildtalent.com

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Welcome to Episode 6 of Ask RPZ, where I answer your questions! I've been asking people questions, via my podcast, for almost 10 years, so I've decided to turn the tables and answer your questions, too!

This week I answer questions from @Noah Hussin, @Jesse Freese, @Emily Rogers about video marketing and making content that people want to see! I answer questions about social media platforms and how my online content has evolved since I started creating in 2008.

Watch the video @Zander Media did for @Jesse Freese and @startupexperts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdNW5Rj26vs

We are currently preparing to film episode 7 of Ask RPZ- comment below with questions about narrative strategy, marketing, behavior change, and more!

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Welcome to Episode 6 of Ask RPZ, where I answer your questions! I've been asking people questions, via my podcast, for almost 10 years, so I've decided to turn the tables and answer your questions, too!

This week I answer questions from @Noah Hussin, @Jesse Freese, @Emily Rogers about video marketing and making content that people want to see! I answer questions about social media platforms and how my online content has evolved since I started creating in 2008.

Watch the video @Zander Media did for @Jesse Freese and @startupexperts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdNW5Rj26vs

We are currently preparing to film episode 7 of Ask RPZ- comment below with questions about narrative strategy, marketing, behavior change, and more!

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Welcome back to the Robin Zander Show!

For today's episode I sit down with Eddie Hudson & Tullio Siragusa on the Tech Backstage podcast. The podcast goes behind the scenes with today’s leaders who discuss the intersection of technology and problem solving, and applying Design Thinking to business.

In this episode, we discuss how connection is essential for a courageous organization and drives innovation in business. I tell the stories of my first adult gymnastic class and opening Robins Cafe with no prior restaurant experiences - both of which involved growing comfortable with my fear.

We also discuss supporting people within your organization on their own self awareness journeys and leading by "Love, Guide, Let go."

I am thrilled to share this episode with you!

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Welcome back to the Robin Zander Show!

For today's episode I sit down with Eddie Hudson & Tullio Siragusa on the Tech Backstage podcast. The podcast goes behind the scenes with today’s leaders who discuss the intersection of technology and problem solving, and applying Design Thinking to business.

In this episode, we discuss how connection is essential for a courageous organization and drives innovation in business. I tell the stories of my first adult gymnastic class and opening Robins Cafe with no prior restaurant experiences - both of which involved growing comfortable with my fear.

We also discuss supporting people within your organization on their own self awareness journeys and leading by "Love, Guide, Let go."

I am thrilled to share this episode with you!

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Welcome back to the Robin Zander Show!

Today's episode is an interview I did with my friend Jennifer Brown on her podcast The Will to Change.

Jennifer Brown is a long time DEI consultant, speaker, and the author of several books, including "How to Be an Inclusive Leader" and "Beyond Diversity." 

Jennifer and I discuss a wide array of topics from the importance of bravery and courage at work, to the impact that the COVID-19 pandemic has had on various marginalized communities.

We also talk about my recent vocal training. As a former operatic singer herself, Jennifer had lots of questions, and you can learn here.

I am delighted to share this episode!

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Welcome back to the Robin Zander Show!

Today's episode is an interview I did with my friend Jennifer Brown on her podcast The Will to Change.

Jennifer Brown is a long time DEI consultant, speaker, and the author of several books, including "How to Be an Inclusive Leader" and "Beyond Diversity." 

Jennifer and I discuss a wide array of topics from the importance of bravery and courage at work, to the impact that the COVID-19 pandemic has had on various marginalized communities.

We also talk about my recent vocal training. As a former operatic singer herself, Jennifer had lots of questions, and you can learn here.

I am delighted to share this episode!

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Andrew Bartlow is the founder of Series B Consulting and People Leader Accelerator, and the author of the new book "Scaling for Success." In this conversation, I sit down with Andrew Bartlow to talk about his career and work in HR, what it was like to grow up in a family business, and how he's built People Leader Accelerator, his modern executive development program for HR people. We discuss how growing up in a formative family business that eventually went bankrupt has impacted both his need for stability and security, and his passion for entrepreneurship, and his path into HR. I've known Andrew for many years, and my company Zander Media has had the privilege of working for his company People Leader Accelerator, but in this conversation we dive into a lot of far more personal conversations which we've never before taken the time to share. I hope you enjoy this wide ranging conversation about the highs and lows of family business, entrepreneurship, and the modern face of HR.

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Welcome back to the Robin Zander Show!

Today's interview is a sit down I did on the new podcast “Talent Talks with Nolan Cox!”

For the inaugural episode, Nolan Cox and I sat down for a deep dive about the future of work and building courageous organizations.

I talk about being a "future of work" OG - or anyway talking about things like remote a distributed work at my annual event Responsive Conference as far back as 2015.

We discuss how organizations have been forced to evolve as a result of Covid-19 and the upheaval of the last few years. And we talk tactics for building great places to work, to keep talented employees engaged, longterm.

If you enjoy this conversation, check out new episodes of Talent Talks, wherever you listen!

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Welcome back to the Robin Zander Show!

Today's interview is a sit down I did on the new podcast “Talent Talks with Nolan Cox!”

For the inaugural episode, Nolan Cox and I sat down for a deep dive about the future of work and building courageous organizations.

I talk about being a "future of work" OG - or anyway talking about things like remote a distributed work at my annual event Responsive Conference as far back as 2015.

We discuss how organizations have been forced to evolve as a result of Covid-19 and the upheaval of the last few years. And we talk tactics for building great places to work, to keep talented employees engaged, longterm.

If you enjoy this conversation, check out new episodes of Talent Talks, wherever you listen!

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Hello, and welcome back to the Robin Zander Show! Today, I'm pleased to sit down with my dear friend Jenny Sauer-Klein.

Jenny is the founder of Scaling Intimacy: a School of Experience Design, and the Culture Conference, an invite-only immersive 2-day event for leaders. She is an experience designer, facilitator, and also the co-founder of the global movement of AcroYoga.

Jenny played a big role in the earliest days of several of my businesses, including Robin's Cafe and Responsive Conference, and I learned a lot from her when I started building physical spaces for people to gather and learn.

In today's conversation, we discuss Experience Design, how the pandemic only accelerated the importance of skillful facilitation, and much more.

For part I of this conversation, listen in here:

https://www.robinpzander.com/co-founding-acroyoga-how-to-create-a-global-movement-and-the-courage-to-start-over-with-jenny-sauer-klein/

Learn more about Jenny and her work: https://www.jennysauerklein.com/

https://scalingintimacy.com/

Learn more at www.robinpzander.com

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My guest today is Marcus Sawyer, the founder of EQ, a private community that connects diverse professionals with professional opportunities.

I connected with Marcus because of a mutual love of building the Future of Work, our shared passion for entrepreneurship and the hustle that building great companies requires, and building communities that support people. As Marcus and EQ say: "each one touch one" - when each individual within a community supports someone else, magic happens!

In this interview, we also talk about learning to put in the work by selling gym memberships, when to put in the work and when to let go of control, his "Ten Ps" framework (including: Purpose, Problem, Positioning, Prospects, Profit model. Prototype, Partners, People, Process), and much more.

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Hello and welcome back to the Robin Zander show!

Today’s guest is Merritt Quisumbing Anderson, an employment attorney, former Head of People at Github, a mother of 3, and founder of Merritt+ Consulting. Merritt also happens to be an adviser to Zander Media, and my dear friend.

In this episode, we cover Merritt’s history, ranging from her experience as a child of immigrants to how she has built a career advocating for employees, as well as the organizations, she works with.

Whether you are building a company or contributing to a company’s culture, Merritt’s experience across multiple industries has tactics and stories you can use.

Learn more at www.robinpzander.com

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Marie Szuts is the consummate professional dilettante. Marie grew up in a family of musicians, and in University picked up the extremely nerdy, and quite beautiful Viola da Gamba at University, which she continues to play at the highest levels today.

Along the way, she obtained a Masters of Divinity Studies from Yale, became Managing Editor for food magazines, and then found herself as the Vice President of People at two fast-growing technology companies, Inkling and Figma.

From an obsession with spoon carving, renaissance music, and the modern world of HR, Marie has built a life and career by finding beauty in everyday things.

You can find Marie on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/marie-szuts/

Learn more at www.robinpzander.com

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Today's interview is with my friend, Eric Bahn, the co-founder of Hustle Fund. I admire Eric for his authenticity on the internet, the kinds of organizations that he backs and promotes, and, most importantly for his, minivan dad life!

Eric always stays true to himself - in a world that, that encourages the opposite. I'm really excited for this interview. I hope you enjoy!

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My guest today is Aaron Beashel, Founder of Attributor and former Head of Marketing at SafetyCulture and Campaign Monitor. Aaron is passionate about getting away from the venture capital funding model and the world-changing moonshot mentality that it mandates. In this conversation, he shares a wealth of ideas for how to build and sustain a company that’s NOT aiming for a billion dollars in annual revenue and a global reach. How do you gradually grow a company that supports your lifestyle goals?

Aaron is a master of his craft, and we’re lucky that he’s turned his attention to smaller, simpler projects. His vision for sustainable company culture and work-life balance is inspiring. We’re definitely all about this type of business and growth at Zander Media, and it’s a real pleasure to sit down with such an experienced marketer to hear about how he makes a bootstrapped business work for him.

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Today's episode is an interview that I gave on the Agile Wire Podcast, all about Responsive Org and the future of work. We talk about building resilient and adaptable organizations. We talk about Agile and Responsive, those movements, and what they mean.

And there's a lot in here about how to build organizations that are truly adaptable and can thrive in tumultuous circumstances. I hope you enjoy.

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I’m excited to share Episode 3 of Ask RPZ, with my friend Aubrey Blanche. This this episode we tackle some big, philosophical questions like:

“What’s a moment from your life of bridging understanding across differences?” 

“What’s a powerful moment of recognizing universal truth?

We also get down to brass tax with: “What’s the worst business decision you’ve ever made?”

(Any decision made hastily and out of anger. )

And, very important: “What’s your favorite flavor of ice cream.”

(Mint! And I will die on this hill.) 

If you enjoyed this episode, check out the first two episodes of Ask RPZ on my YouTube, and my recent longford interview with Aubrey Blanche here.

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My guest today is Kaylee Gardella, founder of the KMG collective. 

The KMG collective is a consultancy which works to foster network and community among some of the better known venture capital firms in the world. I was really struck when I first met Kalee, by her words, “Serve those with the courage and conviction to build from scratch.” And being somebody who builds my companies from scratch as well, I'm really intrigued by what that means to her. 

In this conversation, we talk about brand and marketing strategies for startups and for venture capital, and dig deep into the role of venture capital in building the current and future world of work.

I hope you enjoy this wide ranging conversation about marketing, brand, and the future of venture capital with my friend Kaley Gardella.

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I’ve built two successful businesses and am deep in the weeds of growing my third, Zander Media. What you miss when I say that is the dozen or so failed businesses I’ve started along the way or that never really got off the ground. One of the biggest factors that contributed to my success with building businesses has been an unexpected quality – solving a problem that I have. It’s silly, it’s humbling, and it keeps me showing up and working hard every day.

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Welcome to Episode 2 of our new show Ask RPZ, where I sit down with questions about anything! But in particular, about business, movement, and self-awareness. In today's episode I tackle a variety of questions, including:

-Do you get bored doing the same thing every day?

-What were some of my lessons building and selling Robin's Cafe?

-How do I stay diligent and productive all the time?

-How has the covid pandemic impacted marketing?

-How do you celebrate a big win?

Also, I talk about how much I don't love broccoli!

I hope you enjoy, and if you have question, leave a comment or email me at robin@zandermedia.com.

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Today’s guest is Morgan Chaney, Senior Director of Marketing at Blueboard.

Blueboard is an organization that helps companies like Pinterest, Eventbrite, Gopro, and more reward their employees with memorable and meaningful experiences.

In this conversation, Morgan and I cover her background, the importance of leadership, and what works in the contemporary ecosystem of marketing to create a lasting impact.

I hope you enjoy this conversation!

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Hello and welcome to the Robin Zander Show! Today my colleagues at Zander Media are asking me a few questions about work and home. It’s always fun to turn the interviews around on myself, especially because self awareness and self inquiry are at the core of how I live my life. These questions delve into the balance of intensity and intentionality that I’m finding as I grow my company right now. We also talk about my home life in the redwoods with my dog Riley, and my favorite things about cold plunges and float tanks. Please send me any questions you’d like to hear answered! I love hearing from all of you. I hope you enjoy today’s conversation.

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My guest today is Zach Morrison, the CEO of Tinuiti, one of North America’s largest independent digital marketing agencies.

Tinuiti manages more than $1.5 billion in advertising, spent across the triopoly of Google, Facebook, Amazon.

I learned about Tinuiti when their founder spoke at my annual event, Responsive Conference, in 2017. Throughout its history, Tinuti has led the way as an extraordinarily people-centric organization, including winning AdAge’s Best Place to Work for multiple consecutive years. We discuss how Tinuiti has built their business on the idea of “treating people well,” and much more.

I hope you enjoy this interview!

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I’ve always been insecure about my voice. For whatever reason, it never occurred to me before that I could train my own voice, just like I train handstands, writing, and business. But a few months ago, I started taking voice lessons. My understanding of my own voice on both a technical and an intuitive level has increased at the same time as my confidence. It’s humbling to share this insecurity of mine, especially when I’m just in the early stages of, literally, finding my voice. Thanks for joining us today for this short episode. This is also released as a vlog on my YouTube Channel, which you can find via robinpzander.com or search YouTube for Robin P Zander. I hope you enjoy!

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Katie Bisbee is the Chief Marketing Officer of one of the most innovative non-profits in the world - Donors Choose. DonorsChoose.org was one of the very first organizations to use crowdfunding, before that was even a coined term.

Donors contribute on the website, and that money then goes to supporting teachers and schoolchildren with the tools needed to have the best public school experience possible. Donors Choose has raised over one billion dollars for schools across America!

In this interview, we discuss how Donors Choose has kept ahead and remained one of the most innovative companies in the world by fostering personal relationships between donors and classrooms, and staying focused on nimble growth.

I hope you enjoy this conversation with Katie Bisbee, the CMO and Executive Vice President of Partnerships at Donors Choose.

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I’m so excited to introduce my guest today: Michele Floriani, Chief Marketing Officer at Sequoia Consulting Group. 

Sequoia started out as an HR broker 20 years ago, but has morphed into a full service provider, bringing HR tools to companies from early stage startups through to enterprise companies. 

Michele comes from a fine art and business background, and he blends these in his work today leading brand and marketing at Sequoia. He focuses on the company as a whole: The experience of employees and clients is an essential part of both branding and just running a good business. This holistic viewpoint is grounded in Michele’s dedication to getting the details just right for both creative work and operational processes. Listening to him talk about his work is truly sitting with a master craftsman.

And I should note: Zander Media has had the pleasure of working with Sequoia over the last several years to produce a variety of videos about the company.

Michele’s wealth of experience and deeply caring approach to his work are a beacon in a rapidly changing world. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did!

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This is one of the toughest parts of my life to look back on. And there is so much value in looking at ourselves, understanding our history, bringing those moments to the present and asking, “Who do I want to become?” 

Without having overcome challenges in my childhood, I would never have had the confidence to open up a cafe or start a media company.

Strength comes from understanding our past, and our failures, and then building a future on top of what we've learned.

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Today’s delightful guest is Jacqui Gibson-Clark, CEO of Job Portraits. 

Job Portraits is an employer branding studio, which helps fast growing companies showcase their culture and values to prospective hires. 

Jacqui brings a decisive vision to her work with Job Portraits that comes from years of hands-on learning in the field.

She’s also full of delight, laughter, and practicality. In this conversation, Jacqui shares about her greatest teachers in life -- mistakes and on-the-ground experience. She talks about the structure of a great agency, and the biggest mistakes she’s seen agencies and clients make. I hope you learn as much as I have from Jacqui today.

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One of my most important self-awareness practices is my daily writing habit. And I've always written a lot, not just for the blog or publishing books, but for myself to synthesize my own learnings. In today’s episode, I talk about how I approach writing each day, and what I try to get out of it. Over the past ten years, I’ve built up a deeply supportive practice. Thanks for taking a few moments to stop in, and I hope you make some time for reflection and personal growth today.

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Today’s guest is Aubrey Blanche, who is both the Director of Equitable Design for People and Product at Culture Amp and the CEO of Mathpath. Aubrey is laser-focused on equitable design, and if you have any interest at all in diversity, equity, and inclusion you should follow her on Twitter. 

In today’s conversation, Aubrey dives deep into the nuances of what it means to build organizations that strive to be more equitable. This is something that needs to be held right at the heart of every organization. Aubrey emphasizes that there is no way to achieve equitable design. Instead, each of us can focus on what is the next best step that we can take. I hope you enjoy the powerful insights Aubrey shares in this conversation, and let us know what your next best step is.

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I’ve had intensive physical practice - a movement practice - from quite a young age. But in almost 3 decades of maintaining a rigorous movement practice, I have struggled to define myself and what I do. 

Classical ballet, surfing, Brazilian jiu jitsu, juggling, trapeze, Capoeira, gymnastics - I have done all of these and more, but no term fits or encompasses me fully.

In today’s episode, I share about two practices, The Feldenkrais Method and the teachings and community of Ido Portal, which form the basis of my movement practice today.

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My guest today is Allison Baum Gates, a General Partner at SemperVirens Venture Capital and a lecturer at the Business School at Columbia University and the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley. Allison got her start working in finance and investing, but quickly saw that technology was changing everything about her work and our world.

So Allison decided to go into technology, and to focus on investing in the technology that would be doing the disrupting in 5 or 10 years. She spends her days talking to startup founders and cultivating SemperVirens’ ecosystem of forward-thinking startups. Allison is making an incredible impact with the companies in her portfolio, and her passion for people and growth is clearly a guiding force in her work. It was a real pleasure to hear about how Allison is trying to make the future of work a reality.

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My guest today is Graham North, creator and head of Brand Camp at the iconic ad agency of Goodby, Silverstein, and Partners, the team behind Got Milk and many memorable campaigns. Graham just won “Strategic Planner of the Year,” and Jeff Goodby has said, “Graham is spearheading a new way of thinking and approach to clients’ problems.” 

But what excites me the most about talking with Graham is how he can bring a group of people together to focus on the present moment. He cares deeply about holding space and real human connection. He’s taken that passion for connection and created not just an incredible career for himself, but a novel and inspiring way of thinking about how we make meaning.

Graham has two interwoven projects we talk about today, Brand Camp and Real Talk. Brand Camp is an intensive program for companies to find their “North Star” and shift operations to focus on the tangible, results-oriented core of their business. Real Talk is a card game about getting to the heart of things, whether that’s in a team at work or a group of folks at a party. While these projects might seem lighthearted, there’s a brilliant core of meaning and depth. I hope you enjoy this conversation with my friend Graham North.

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This podcast is a little bit different. As part of a rebranding exercise for this website, my YouTube channel, and RPZ overall, I recently sat down with Jonathan Kofahl, my dear friend and producer/director at Zander Media, for an interview...with me!

Jonathan and I have known each other since 2017 when he filmed the Rework CEO Summit, which I put on in Boulder, Colorado. We’ve been in collaboration ever since, and since the earliest days of Zander Media, he has been my go-to for “how to create a video business” questions.

So often, as the CEO of Zander Media, my job is having one-on-ones with my team - Jonathan included - about what business is like for them and what Zander Media can be doing better. This was a fun and deeply personal turning of the tables with Jonathan asking me about business and personal philosophy instead. I hope you enjoy!

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As part of the updates to this website and across the RPZ brand, I’ve recently sat down for a half dozen interviews with close friends. And instead of the typical “Robin conducts an interview”, I have asked them to interview me. 

Today’s interview is with my dear friend, Nate Floyd. Nate and I have known each other for several years as members of SF Movement Practice. Beyond our shared physical practice, Nate is a salesman and a plant medicine guide, and over the years has become a close and valued friend.

In this interview, he asks me a wide variety of questions about life, meaning, and my personal approach to happiness. I hope you enjoy!

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My guest today is Gayle Karen Young Whyte, former head of People and Culture at Wikimedia (the parent company behind Wikipedia). These days Gayle is very politically active and consulting with a select group of executives on organizational and culture change.

I’ve known Gayle since she spoke at the first Responsive Conference in San Francisco in 2016, and have followed her work ever since.

In this conversation, recorded in late 2020, we talk about resilience, inquiry, the COVID-19 pandemic, and what we can all do to rise to the challenges of these times. Gayle brings wisdom, simplicity, and kindness to the questions of how to continue learning, growing, and thriving as new opportunities arise in our lives.

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Hello and welcome to the Robin Zander Show. My guest today is Dr. Emily Anhalt, a clinical psychologist and the co-founder of Coa, a startup building virtual and in-person centers to practice and improve mental health and resilience.

Emily spoke at a Responsive Conference event that I hosted on Mental Health in San Francisco in November 2019, and I was so impressed with her presentation on stage that I’ve been wanting to sit down with her ever since to talk about mental health.

Now, more than ever, this conversation is needed and I’m delighted that Emily is leading the way and sharing tools to improve wellbeing. Her research into the psychological components of leadership is fascinating, and I learn a lot every time I listen to Emily.

I hope you enjoy this conversation!

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Hello, and welcome back to the Robin Zander Show!

My guest today is Jeremy Liew, a partner at Lightspeed Venture Partners.

Jeremy heads up investments in consumer technology at Lightspeed, a well-known Silicon Valley venture capital firm, and has invested in iconic and culturally relevant companies, including Snap, Giphy, Rothy’s, Affirm, Honest, Cheddar, and many more.

Jeremy is willing to embrace the beginner’s mind and practice things he doesn’t know how to do - even when it is uncomfortable. And as we discuss, that trait has paid dividends throughout his personal and professional life.

I know Jeremy personally through my own physical practice. We are both students of Johnny Sapinoso of San Francisco Movement Practice.

In this interview, Jeremy and I discuss his background and the various transitionary points in his personal life and professional career, how his “geeky youth” set the stage for work within the early Web 1.0 companies like AOL and Netscape, his first experience in sales in his mid-20s, and his discovery of and love for movement in recent years.

As a business operator and first time investor myself, we dive into how Jeremy recognizes consumer trends and the difference between being a business operator versus an investor.

I hope you enjoy this wide ranging conversation about startups, consumer trends, movement, and learning with my friend, Jeremy Liew.

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Welcome back to the Robin Zander Show. My guest today is Eldra Jackson III. 

Eldra is a TED mainstage speaker and the co-executive director of Inside Circle, a non-profit which works to end cycles of incarceration and recidivism. Eldra was incarcerated for 24 years, with several years of that time spent in solitary confinement.

Eldra now spends most of his time sitting with people inside and outside the prison system, helping them uncover their own truths to find greater internal peace.

I first met Eldra through a Zander Media client, The Trium Group, where Eldra serves as a strategic advisor. I have since come to call him a friend. 

With their focus that “not all prisons have walls,” Inside Circle does transformative work to address the trauma and other wounds that create cycles of incarceration. Any time spent with Eldra is time well spent. I’m also pleased to share that Zander Media now produces The Inside Circle Podcast with Eldra Jackson III, with guests including Byron Katie, founder of The Work, Soren Gordhamer, founder of Wisdom 2.0, and many more. I hope you enjoy this wide ranging conversation with my friend, Eldra Jackson III!

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Welcome back to the Robin Zander Show. 

I first met Mark Brand through his talk at Responsive Conference 2017. The conversation in today’s episode is broad in scope, but the central thread is Mark’s tireless effort towards improving equality for all people. In Mark's world, that is predominantly through getting people fed. As a former restaurateur myself, I’m blown away by what Mark has accomplished, the millions and millions of people he has fed and his own personal triumphs.

He’s gone from being unhoused to being a successful serial entrepreneur and philanthropist. Anyone who wants to really have an impact on the world can learn a lot from Mark Brand’s approach and philosophies. 

Please enjoy this wide ranging conversation with my friend, Mark Brand.

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Welcome back to the Robin Zander Show! 

For today’s episode, I sat down with Jude Gomila to talk about his journey as an entrepreneur and his start-up Golden.

I first met Jude, and learned about Golden, when Zander Media was hired to create an explainer video about the company. We had 10 days to get up to speed on this company, craft a script, and put together this short video:

https://vimeo.com/390117170

I was really looking forward to a more leisurely interview with Jude, but this conversation dramatically exceeded my expectations. 

Jude is a quirky, charismatic leader, who has invested in over 200 startups and is out to build the world’s first self-constructing knowledge database. Learn more about Golden at golden.com.

Jude is a fellow circus performer and a polymath with interests ranging from robotics, space, and the learning process. He, and his company Golden, are on a quest to map all of human knowledge. 

I hope you enjoy this interview!

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Welcome back to another episode of the Robin Zander Show!

My guests today are Alex Jamieson and Bob Gower, co-authors of the new book, Radical Alignment. This book is designed to help people achieve more joy and less drama - at work and in daily life.

Bob Gower is an organizational design consultant. He supported my curation leading up to the first Responsive Conference, where he gave a talk on "How Not To Join a Cult."

Alex Jamieson was the co-producer and co-star of the academy award nominated documentary, Super Size Me. She is a leadership coach, radio show host, and nutrition consultant.

In their new book, Radical Alignment, they teach a simple process for individuals and teams to establish clear boundaries with less drama and more joy.

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I'm really pleased to share my live conversation with Chris Fussell, former Navy SEAL and Chief of Staff to General Stan McChrystal. who was himself in charge of Special Operations during the Iraq War.

Chris is now the President of the McChrystal Group and spoke onstage at Responsive Conference 2016.

Chris is the first person I look to about how we can respond to crisis and we spent this webinar discussing how people around the world can (and should) organize amidst the Coronavirus Pandemic.

I hope you find this useful!

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Welcome back to the Robin Zander Show, and an entirely different world. The Coronavirus Pandemic has the entire world in an uproar.

In today's podcast, I have a conversation with David Hanrahan, CHRO of Eventbrite, about taking a large company entirely remote in under 2 weeks, parenting tactics when so many of us are working from home, changes to the events business, and maintaining mental health.

We keep our conversation short and tactical sharing specific tools and practices that can help you at home.

Enjoy!

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Welcome back to the show! I'm your host, Robin Zander.

I meet with a lot of people exploring the edges of both personal and professional performance, but rarely find folks combining these disciplines skillfully within large organizations.

The Trium Group is an exception. In this interview, I sit down with Darren Gold, managing partner of The Trium Group, to discuss peak performance, his very unusual and challenged background, and his new book "Master Your Code."

Enjoy!

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A few weeks ago I sat down with Greg Russel, VP of Talent at Snapdocs to talk about talent development. The conversation ended up covering a great deal more including company culture, special needs, human development, and my own eclectic background. I hope you enjoy!

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This fall I spent 3.5 weeks traveling with my mother in Ghana, Africa. The relationship between me and my mom is complicated. She frequently drives me crazy, so traveling in close quarters for several weeks in a foreign country was a bold test for our rel

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A few weeks ago in NYC, I led a strategy workshop for an exclusive group of CEOs and founders who are building companies designed to thrive in the Future of Work.

Every organization is tasked with issues that seem insurmountable. Often, the process to accomplishing a huge goal can be so overwhelming that we never get started. Behavior change can help make seemingly impossible goals feel smaller and more attainable.

What we want to accomplish is not going to happen in a single day. Instead, break the large goal down into the smallest steps possible, steps so small that they are almost ridiculously easy. When you succeed at accomplishing that tiny step, you will be encouraged to continue.

This is how we build new habits and behavior changes that eventually create monumental differences in our organizations and lives.

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Robin Peter Zander is a best-selling author, strategist, and performance coach. With a diverse background ranging from management consulting to the circus, he has spent his life working with individuals and organizations to maximize potential.

Robin partners with leaders to solve their most difficult problems. He is the founder of Zander Media, an agency which works with individuals and teams to improve performance.

He is the founder of the Responsive Conference, which convenes annually to explore the future of work. In addition, Robin is the author of the new book “Responsive: What It Takes To Create A Thriving Organization.”

Through his podcast, The Robin Zander Show, he interviews exceptional performers from areas as diverse as the arts, technology, and healthcare to understand how individuals and organizations can accelerate performance.

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Follow Me Online:

Instagram: http://instagram.com/robinpzander
Facebook: http://facebook.com/robinpzander
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robinpzander
Twitter: http://twitter.com/robinpzander
Medium: http://medium.com/@robinpzander
Zander Media: http://www.zandermedia.com

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Recently while in NYC, I led a strategy workshop for an exclusive group of CEOs and founders who are building companies designed to thrive in the modern world.

Here, we discuss how to have more authenticity in our sales. Respecting others' time and double checking that they are still available and willing to speak gives you initial buy in to the conversation.

You are much more likely to have a connection that will result in the long-term outcome you desire if you put the other person's needs at the forefront. Focus on how you would like to show up for the conversation, because you are more likely to be successful if you sell lovingly than if you sell aggressively. Being present and considerate will amplify what you already do and who you really are.

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Robin Peter Zander is a best-selling author, strategist, and performance coach. With a diverse background ranging from management consulting to the circus, he has spent his life working with individuals and organizations to maximize potential.

Robin partners with leaders to solve their most difficult problems. He is the founder of Zander Media, an agency which works with individuals and teams to improve performance.

He is the founder of the Responsive Conference, which convenes annually to explore the future of work. In addition, Robin is the author of the new book “Responsive: What It Takes To Create A Thriving Organization.”

Through his podcast, The Robin Zander Show, he interviews exceptional performers from areas as diverse as the arts, technology, and healthcare to understand how individuals and organizations can accelerate performance.

Learn more at http://robinpzander.com/

--

Follow Me Online:

Instagram: http://instagram.com/robinpzander
Facebook: http://facebook.com/robinpzander
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robinpzander
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Podcast: http://robinpzander.com/show
Zander Media: http://www.zandermedia.com

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My guest today is the President of Pepsi Global Foods, Simon Lowden. Simon has been the driving force over the last 10 years at turning Pepsi into a forward-thinking and self-iterating company. He is incredibly thoughtful when it comes to marketing and Responsive organizations, and in today’s conversation, we dive deep into some of the philosophies that he has implemented over the span of his career. He offers tactical advice on how to work well with teams and build a future focused organization. I hope you enjoy!

Podcast Notes

3:00 How Simon found Responsive

5:00 Building a team

7:45 Why Pepsico brought Simon on

10:45 How Simon stays current in marketing

12:45 Balancing the internal politics of the organization with staying fresh with consumer attention

15:45 Marketing platforms on the rise

18:15 Plastics Project

21:15 Three local rules of the Plastics Project

25:30 Simon mentions: If by Rudyard Kipling

26:00 Simon’s thoughts to the Responsive community

28:00 Steps towards being plastic-free

31:30 Begin with trust

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A few weeks ago, I sat down with Michael Roderick to discuss brand strategy and his work around creating “referrable brands.” This conversation covers a wide range of topics related to brand strategy, including his AIM model which stands for Accessibility, Influence, and Memory. We apply this framework to a variety of business examples, including my own efforts at Zander Media. I hope you enjoy!

Podcast Notes:

3:30 Michael’s background

Robin refers to:

Made To Stick by Chip Heath and Dan Heath

Influence by Robert B. Cialdini

6:30 How Michael and Robin know each other

Responsive Conference

Responsive Org Manifesto

10:30 Teaching and learning

15:30 Transitioning from teaching to starting a business

Michael mentions:

Linchpin by Seth Godin

18:15 Michael’s talk at Disrupt HR

20:45 Referrable brands: Accessibility, Influence, and Memory

24:00 Michael’s podcast

26:30 Applying AIM to Zander Media

30:15 Influence

34:00 Memory

40:00 Lin Manuel Miranda, Geico, and Apple

46:15 Find more about Michael:

Small Pond Enterprises

LinkedIn

47:45 Find more about Robin:

Zander Media

Responsive Conference

Robin Zander Show Podcast

Newsletter - Personal

Newsletter - Responsive

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This is a talk that Robin Zander gave at the HR Transform conference in Las Vegas to the Heads of HR of some of the fastest growing tech companies you have definitely heard of. The context for his talk was storytelling. Robin pulls on his experience at Robin’s Cafe and Responsive Conference to help others tell their story.

In today’s world, it’s not enough to just have a great company culture - you have to share that story with the world. The aspects that make your organization unique create incredibly compelling narrative. It has never been easier to get your ideas out - to your company, your customers, and the broader world. Find the reason you do the work you do, and share that out with the world.

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In this episode, my friend, Daniel Stillman, interviews me for his podcast, The Conversation Factory.

We discuss how to ask better questions, the value of loving, non-judgemental questions, and my story.

I hope you enjoy today’s podcast as Daniel flips the script and interviews me on the art of asking questions.

Line Notes

1:15 How Robin describes himself

5:15 Responsive Org

Mentions:

Responsive.org

DonorsChoose.org

10:00 How do you define learning?

14:30 Asking loving questions

17:45 Practice versus performance intervals

22:30 Physical and emotional pain

Mentions:

Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini

Pre-suasion: A Revolutionary Way to Influence and Persuade by Robert Cialdini

24:30 Asking loving questions

29:00 Robin’s interest in asking questions

32:30 Anat Baniel

37:00 The Option Institute

40:45 Categories of questions

Mentions:

Larissa Conte at Responsive Conference

45:15 Robin’s Cafe

47:00 Find Robin:

• Robin’s website
• Robin’s blog
• Responsive Conference
• Zander Media
• Robin’s Youtube

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Perfectionism can limit your creative fuels. The fear of failure can be crippling, and the pressure to execute consistently can paralyze you from trying at all. To help combat this, try making a list of 10 ways you can do any specific thing unsuccessfully.

The idea is to find ways to do something incorrectly, on purpose, in order to get your ideas flowing and remove your self-judgment. You are intentionally making a list of rough drafts, instead of stressing about any of those thoughts being perfect. We only become good at things after failing at them repetitively.

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This was recorded live at a Financial Freedom workshop in the San Francisco Bay Area. This, and other workshops, are put on by Motion, which offers online and in-person events on money, mental health, and self-awareness.

If you are interested in learning more visit: www.wantmotion.com

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We all have a myriad of beliefs, and it is useful first to recognize your beliefs. But it is also possible to amplify them, and use your beliefs as fuel to create more of what you want.

In this exercise, we looked for the earliest memories of a specific belief, and then turned the belief into a statement of purpose. This process took an abstract memory and created an action that feels tangible and possible.

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This was recorded live at a Financial Freedom workshop in the San Francisco Bay Area. This, and other workshops, are put on by Motion, which offers online and in-person events on money, mental health, and self-awareness.

If you are interested in learning more visit: www.wantmotion.com

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We are each in control of our own reality. If you feel that making money by selling your art or your work is impossible, go find other people whose work you admire that are successful. If someone else has done it, you can do it too. Find roll models that have something in common with you to help you believe in your own abilities.

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This was recorded live at a Financial Freedom workshop in the San Francisco Bay Area. This, and other workshops, are put on by Motion, which offers online and in-person events on money, mental health, and self-awareness.

If you are interested in learning more visit: www.wantmotion.com

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If you want to save more money, adopting principles of behavior change will be important. What areas of your daily life can you cut back on spending?

It's important to be thoughtful on what you spend money on in conjunction with how you want to live. That being said, if something in an unnecessary expense but brings you immense joy, don't cut it out. Whether that's a $5 latte or traveling with family, don't starve yourself of the things that make you happy. Look for other areas that could be cut instead to help coordinate what you want with your long term goals.

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This was recorded live at a Financial Freedom workshop in the San Francisco Bay Area. This, and other workshops, are put on by Motion, which offers online and in-person events on money, mental health, and self-awareness.

If you are interested in learning more visit: www.wantmotion.com

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This is the story of how I came to own Robin's Cafe in the course of 3 weeks with no initial intention or experience in purchasing a coffeeshop. The mental and emotional growth I gained through that experience was instrumental.

From that experience, I also found that when we show up humbly and ask for help, people are extremely receptive. People who love you will want to see you succeed. I was able to raise $40,000 to open the cafe, ran it for 2.5 years, and sold it for $140,000. I left satisfied with many lessons learned and a new understanding of money.

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This was recorded live at a Financial Freedom workshop in the San Francisco Bay Area. This, and other workshops, are put on by Motion, which offers online and in-person events on money, mental health, and self-awareness.

If you are interested in learning more visit: www.wantmotion.com

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50 ways to 50k is a game you can play to come up with ways to make extra money each month.

The first step is to choose an amount of money that feels really achievable for you to make additionally to your normal income each month. The second step is to brainstorm 15 ways to make that amount of money for next month. The third step is to decipher whether each job you came up with will make money continuously or just one time.

When thinking through job options, look through your skillset and your range of experiences to pick out several different, practical ideas. It may not be a job you feel totally confident in or very excited for, or it may be a job you feel more than overly qualified for. Regardless, any of those jobs will help motivate you and get you moving towards what you want. Often times, we are so stuck in not knowing how to get where we want to go, that we remain completely frozen. This game helps you move towards more certainty and gives you the emotional security to know that you can provide for yourself. That list of jobs may not be how you want to do things permanently, but it teaches you that if you need to make money in a bind, you can.

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This was recorded live at a Financial Freedom workshop in the San Francisco Bay Area. This, and other workshops, are put on by Motion, which offers online and in-person events on money, mental health, and self-awareness.

If you are interested in learning more visit: www.wantmotion.com

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One of the pieces around money that we don't clarify enough is establishing your "why". The reason you want something can be highly motivating, and the absence of a clear "why" can limit you from taking direct action. Be specific with how much more money you want, why it is important to you, and what it is for. Defining that can be a driving force to achieving your financial goals.

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This was recorded live at a Financial Freedom workshop in the San Francisco Bay Area. This, and other workshops, are put on by Motion, which offers online and in-person events on money, mental health, and self-awareness.

If you are interested in learning more visit: www.wantmotion.com

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I recently sat down to chat with Lindsay McGregor in New York City. Lindsay is the co-author of The New York Time's best selling book "Primed to Perform" and also spoke onstage at Responsive 2018. She and her husband co-founded the company, VegaFactor, which works with fortune 500 companies, fast growing start-ups, and a wide variety of other organizations to improve performance. In this interview, we discuss her life, her work, and her personal journey to peak performance.

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I took a 36 hour trip to New York City recently, and among other meetings, I had the pleasure of 30 minutes on camera with Cindy Gordon, Head of People at Policygenius.

Cindy spoke at Responsive Conference 2018, and Policygenius has been heralded as one of Inc’s Great Places to Work. We discuss her work and the tactics Cindy applies to build a great company.

Learn more: https://www.policygenius.com/

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Friendship isn't something that most people do intentionally. Ordinarily, we "fall" into and out of relationships and friendships, without thinking through what we want or why we are there.

In this video, I tell the story of how I became friends with Michelle Love, my co-founder at Motion (www.wantmotion.com). Michelle brought a level of clarity and specificity to what our friendship would look like that could help with creating many types of different relationships.

To make any strong connection with someone, you should get to know them deeply and then invite towards something that is in your mutual interest. Being thoughtful about your needs and intentions sets up a strong foundation for your future time together.

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One day, after my first year of college, I came home and proposed to my parents that we have a real relationship. I had always been grateful to have them, but I had never really made the choice actively to have a relationship with them. I promised to always be loving, speak my truth, and not hide pieces of myself from them, and I invited my parents to do the same with me. It made a huge difference to show up like that for each other, not because we are obligated to as family, but because we were all choosing to do so. Who in your life do you want to have a better relationship with?

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Our most trusted and important institutions – in business, healthcare, government, philanthropy, and beyond – are struggling. They're confronted with the fact that the scale and bureaucracy that once made them strong are liabilities in an era of constant change.

Welcome back to another episode of the Robin Zander Show! I'm thrilled to share today's interview with Aaron Dignan, author of the new book "Brave New Work," as well as founding member of Responsive Org.

In today's interview, Aaron and I discuss his work with The Ready, supporting the growing of some of the biggest companies in the world, how he came to co-founder Responsive Org, and the idea of an organization's "Operating System" - the driving principles and practices which shape an organization.

I hope you enjoy this conversation with Aaron Dignan!

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My father's ability to speak to different audiences in a language that was familiar to them has always stuck with me all of my life.

Individually, we all have the ability to chose how we relate to the people we are with. Prioritize connecting with others. Demonstrating that desire to meet people where they are goes such a long way.

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Running your own business isn't about throwing around stacks of $100 dollar bills. It is about taking ultimate responsibility, doing the work necessary, and making hard decisions.

When you run your own business or work for yourself there an essential element that we don't talk enough about. Freedom. It gives you the freedom to set your own hours, to call the shots, and to be your own boss. It gives you the ability to live the life you want and provide for the people you love. But that also comes with the freedom to fail if you don't do the necessary work. 

What is freedom for you, and how can you take steps to getting more free in your professional life?

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Steve Pressfield coined to term "Resistance" in his incredible book "The Way of Art".

When it comes to any job, you have to do the work. If you are putting on events, you have to sell tickets. If you are writing a book, you have to sit down and write. Everything else, in many ways, is just busy work.

Whatever your end goal is, do what is actually needed to accomplish it. We often do everything but what we need to do - and that is resistance. It is a hesitancy to own your truth. Avoid resistance by doing whatever needs to get done, if you want to do the best work of your life.

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We are all so busy, distracted, and distract-able. We are surrounded by social media and news pulling us in a million different directions.

The solution to that is very simple: identify the one thing that you need to do right now to move forward whatever you are trying to accomplish, and do that one thing.

This is true in relationships, building a business, and even fitness. We get caught up in the little things and the judgment of not thinking we are doing enough, when all we really need to do is just one thing to move us towards the end goal. It really is that simple.

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One of my earliest memories at 8 years old, is trying to keep up with my father as he ran his very first marathon. I was heartbroken that I could only make it about 200 yards compared to his 26.2. 

All of my life, my identity has really been tied to my physical exploration. I have tried many different domains of movement very intensely - gymnastics, juggling, fencing, ballet, surfing - and found that even if these forms are all very different, they all have something in common. The excitement of learning is the same, no matter how different the exercise.

For me, movement is less about doing something physical, just for the sake of doing it, and has become more about my interest in studying and training. Learning can be fun, addictive, and internally motivating. My passion for exploring has led me to try many different forms of movement.

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If you want to change a behavior long term, make sure you celebrate the small victories. Reward yourself for your success - no matter how tiny or ridiculous - and you will be more likely to repeat that action again in the future. Even if it feels silly to do, the first step to make a new habit stick, is to celebrate yourself bigger.

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There are things for each of us that we want to improve, behaviors that we want to change. The first and most important step is to start small. Whatever new habit you want to establish is, make it as small as possible (and then smaller still).

BJ Fogg, PhD, uses the example of flossing. If you'd like to begin flossing your teeth, set the new goal to be flossing a single tooth. And then, even though it seems silly, celebrate the success of flossing that one tooth.

The smaller you make the initial goal, the more likely you are to succeed, and the more likely you are to continue growing the habit over time! 

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"Behavior design", a term coined by BJ Fogg, PhD., means how to design behaviors to them easier to adopt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._J._Fogg

I think about this a lot in fitness and in movement. Like most people, there have been many times that I have joined a new gym and then only gone one time.

These days, I almost effortlessly get up at 5am most morning to train for 2 hours, and I love every moment of it.

This transformation hasn't come about by judgement or sheer force of will, but by applying the principles of behavior design and taking tiny steps over time.

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We have all been told to exercise more. “Just do it”. Get more fit. Fitness is a multi-billion dollar industry built around shame.

And yet, wellness is the foundation upon which our emotions, intellect, and spirituality all rest. Getting physically strong allows us to better support ourselves and everyone in our lives.

I recommend you search for your "why" to your personal fitness or wellness journey. Exercising solely because you want to look a certain way is usually not enough of a motivation and often is not addressing the underlying issue - insecurity. I move because I love moving and find joy in physical exploration. 

Before entering the gym, ask yourself what is your "why"? It will help you to help create longterm, lasting changes.

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I would like to share some great advice I once got from Professor B.J. Fogg at Stanford. He told me to never sell to people who don't already want what you are selling. Trying to persuade people who don't want what you are offering is a waste of time. Instead, focus on selling to those who are already bought in.

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Selling has a bad reputation.

Most us think about "used car salesmen" kinds of selling and there is plenty of that! At Robin's Cafe, we used to get dozens of calls every single day from start-ups trying to pitch us on "We're Yelp, but for Cafes" or the like. My baristas would have to answer, because that was the same line customers called to place orders.

But selling is also something that each of us does every single day - enrolling, persuading, inviting. Asking a friend to come to the gym with you, planning a lunch, asking someone out of a date, trying to persuade you kid to put on their shoes before going outside.

I have an unusual approach to sales. Actually, I think most long-term successful salespeople do.

The first step, in any call or conversation, is to establish clear boundaries:

--How long is the conversation going to last?

--What's the purpose of the meeting?

--Even if it was previously scheduled, ensure that now is (still) a good time to talk

Then, I set a clear intention for this call. For me, frequently, that is to love the person I'm with. But if that's too vague for you - it could be to be present, to help them, to support them. Whatever your goal for the other person is in this meeting.

The next step is some amount of guesswork. I take my best guess as to what is in this person's best interest. I have, many times, sold something other than what I set out to talk about because I realized that what I was offering wasn't in this person's best interest. There are more than 7 billion people in the world. It is totally fine if this isn't somebody who should buy what you're selling, or if they don't want to go to the movies with you tonight, or if your kid just won't put on their shoes.

If what I'm selling really is in their best interest, then I invite powerfully towards that outcome - be it to the movies, putting on shoes, buying avocado toast or tickets to my Responsive Conference. A part of this is also sharing personal stories - the reason why I'm excited to spend time with them, the consequence if the child doesn't put on their shoes, or who else will be at the event that I think they'll enjoy meeting. This requires a clear invitation: "I would like for you to ______________." And the question: "Will you come? Will you purchase a ticket? Will you come with me to the movies?"

Finally, end with celebration and excitement. I will frequently close with something about the person that I'm grateful for or admire about them. End on a good note, no matter the outcome.

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I've realized recently that fear is my North Star. Whereas most people shy away from things that they are scared of, I frequently go towards my fears or use them to adjust course.

In the same way that the literal North Star is guide, showing travelers which way is north, what I fear provides me a sense of direction. I don't always go towards it, but I do always know where it is.

Fear is a tool I use to navigate and choose my direction.

Instead of being driven by what you fear, can you learn to choose where you are going based on what we want, and what we're afraid of doing, instead of avoiding altogether? What is your North Star?

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How would you live your life differently if you knew you were going to die tomorrow?

We're all so busy rushing through our lives that we sometimes forget to pause and remember that we have fleeting time on this earth. Watch this short vlog for a reminder to be grateful for what you do have in your life, and the time you do have available now.

Memento Mori. Remember that you will die.

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Even though I've run Responsive Conference and various other events with more than a $1000 ticket, this February is the first time I'm running workshops entirely by myself.

I'm nervous. So, I've been doing busywork: setting up landing pages, working on website copy, creating videos, revisiting the workshop content. All these things are useful, and necessary, but none of them matter alongside the real work of getting the right people to attend the events.

Realizing I was hiding from the real, necessary work to make an event successful, I made the definition of "success" much smaller. In this short podcast, I share the simple change I made to make the barrier for success much lower, and thus easier to achieve.

Give it a listen!

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If you're interested in learning more about my upcoming workshops:

Finding Financial Freedom
Feb. 9 - 10, 2019

The Fitness Habit
Feb. 24, 2019

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Money is not a topic that we discuss easily. It’s not something that I was taught in school or that we talked about around the kitchen table in my family. But I have learned that money is a skill that can be learned and practiced.

Previously to opening Robin's Cafe, the most I’d ever earned in a year was under $50,000 - before expenses. By 2017, through the cafe, I was earning almost $50,000 per month.

In today's podcast I share three lessons learned as a result of earning $50,000 a month at Robin's Cafe.

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How do you foster a culture of belonging? This is a very simple tactic that has made a world of difference within my own organizations, and that I’ve been helping other leaders apply within their companies. This article is about the importance of one-on-one meetings. Taking the time to get to know each person within your company go a surprisingly long way.

When I founded Robin’s Cafe in 2016, I was deeply excited about Slack. For me, this digital messaging platform was the ideal place to create a “digital representation” of our brick-and-mortar shop.

But that first week, when I asked my staff of 3 to pull out their phones, 1 pulled out a flip phone, another an old iPhone so badly broken that the screen was un-useable, and the third shrugged and said he didn’t have a phone right now.

It doesn’t matter if you are running a 3 person company or a 300 person company. One of the most important contributions you can make is knowing your people. I believe that the role of a leader is to get to know each person in a company personally - to know what makes them tick, to know why they are there, and to support them in that growth.

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I sold my cafe after spending almost 3 years building it up from nothing. When I began Robin's Cafe, there was a parking lot across the street. Today, that parking lot is literally a park and a playground. I was able to grow the cafe because of a ton of factors: good timing, a great neighborhood, a lenient lease, and a whole ton of effort. When I left, the cafe employed 15 people on staff, up from 1 person on our first day of operations.

Every morning since I sold my business, I've woken up at 7am with a thrill because I don't have to solve food service emergencies anymore! But a few days after selling Robin's Cafe, I had an insight and my first tinge of regret about selling my business.

But I promise: the regret isn't what you think. I don't regret starting the business, and I certainly don't regret selling it. The only thing I really wish I had done differently is document every step of the journey along the way.

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It has been almost 3 years since I began Robin’s Cafe, as a service to the attendees of the conference I was running onsite. I knew I wanted coffee and sandwiches for our conference attendees, saw an opportunity to serve the neighborhood, and on 3 weeks notice opened a cafe.

Nearly 3 years later I’ve learned a ton, and I’m ready to turn my attention to new adventures. I’ll be leaving Robin’s Cafe in the very capable hands of my team and new owners.

The new owners have owned a cafe previously and been looking for just the right cafe to operate in San Francisco for several years. Even more, though, my team are the heartbeat of the organization, and they are excited - as am I - for the continued tweaks and improvements to come.

Silicon Valley celebrates “exits.” We shouldn’t.The number of times I’ve heard people bragging about their successful “exists” on the streets of San Francisco exceed my ability to count. I was a bit skeptical, but like many in the Bay Area also excited by the prospect of selling a company or being acquired. It sounds like fun!

It isn’t! First of all, the number of hoops that have to be jumped through are outrageous. Legal, bureaucratic, logistic, financial, and - finally - people.

Really, though, we shouldn’t celebrate exits because it puts the focus in just the wrong place - building unsustainable companies. Even though I’ll be selling Robin’s Cafe at a profit, doing so is a mark that I am no longer the right person to run my cafe. For me, operating a cafe longterm is unrealistic, unsustainable. I am not a good long term fit for the role of “coffee shop owner,” in no small part because we don’t have a back office to call and I consistently have other projects that keep me from solving the day-to-day minutiae that come up when running a restaurant.

Law is a Required Skill

When I opened Robin’s Cafe, I, my then manager Aidan, and the then-executive director of our landlord ODC wrote and signed a 12 page lease that has served as our operating and guiding document ever since. It didn’t occur to any of us to have an attorney proof the lease beforehand, nor - as I found out 2 years later - did ODC’s board approve the lease.

Even though we have served more than 25,000 avocado toasts, the terms of our lease will make or break the business. It isn’t enough to provide great service, or be constantly busy. If the terms of a lease aren’t service-able, a business is going to fail.

I’ve signed a lot of documents in my life without reading the fine print. I can’t keep track of the number of times Facebook or Gmail have changed their terms of service. But what am I going to do? Stop using my email?

But the importance of a legally binding document, that will impact the livelihood of your business for years, and maybe decades to come, is fundamental. And is often negotiated in a matter of weeks, as was my case.

While it is a legally binding document, it has been amazing to me the long term impact of such a document.

People Matter More Than Anything

Of our current staff of 15, 5 have been with us more than 12 months, and 7 with us at least 6. Over 3 years, I’ve seen over 50 employees come and go through Robin’s Cafe. About ⅕ of those 50+ total hires, quit within a week of starting. We’ve also had 3 of our best ever employees move out of state, 7 no-call no-shows, and 1 die (RIP Frank).

All through this process and learning experience, it has been amazing to find that the people behind the counter - our staff - are the heartbeat of our organization.

There’s the obvious stuff: we can’t serve customers without someone behind the counter to serve them. But the culture of our customers has come to reflect the culture of our staff.

Conway’s Law states that the shape of an organization dictates the shape of the products that company creates. In our case - though we sell coffee and avocado toast - our real product is community. The community we have behind the counter - that’s the real asset of Robin’s Cafe, and it is reflected in the quality of our patrons. Many companies say “We <3 our customers.” Walking into Robin’s Cafe, any day of the week, and it is clear that we really do.

But when I say “People Matter More Than Anything” I’m not talking about customers. Yes, we can’t run a cafe without customers. But that’s just the gravy. Making food and serving coffee - that’s job. Forming community for our customers? That the bonus, for when everything else is going well. And things only go well when the employees - those people doing the day-to-day work of the restaurant - are happy and satisfied themselves. There are lots of little ways to do this, but the single biggest is spending time with each individual person within the organization, knowing them, knowing what matters for them, and following up - day after day.

Certainly, I’ve failed at this at times. There have been months, or even quarters, when I don’t spend enough time with my staff. But that process - the regular, day-to-day attention - is what makes a cafe successful.

Have You Always Wanted to Own a Cafe? Don’t!

To all of those people who have approached me over the last few years and said: “I’ve always dreamed of owning a cafe” - and there have been hundreds - my response is this:

"Don't! Or, at least: know thyself."

Here are some questions that I wish someone had asked me before I opened up Robin’s Cafe. I would still have begun the coffeeshop, but I would perhaps have done so with eyes just a bit more wide open.

Some questions to consider:

• Are you interested in sweeping up spilled coffee grounds? Everyday? forever?
• Are you excited for the challenge of dealing with a dozen or more vendors, on a daily basis, each with their own schedules, pay structure, and delivery errors?
• Are you sure you want to work in an industry that has the highest turnover of any industry in the world?
• Does solving customer’s problems excite you, truly?

If so, then by all means! But these aren’t things most people who want to run a cafe, are eager to do. And this is the job.

The folks I’ve met are excited by the idea of running a cafe want different things. They want the philosophical elements - the beautiful space, building a community, the moments of delight for a customer. These things are the upside of a successful cafe, but not the reason to run one.

I remember the first time I learned - the hard way - that our espresso machine drain pipe is too small. One afternoon I got a frantic call from my then-manager, saying that the espresso machine was backed up, resulting in a very difficult time serving lattes, cappuccinos, and other espresso drinks. I quickly realized that the situation wasn’t going to be easily resolved, and would take several hours of sorting and deconstruction before we could adequately address the issue.

That evening, equipped with an air compressor that my friend and investor Krista had acquired for the purpose, we proceeded to attempt to blow out the clogged pipe. The first two attempts failed, because we had failed to adequately secure the pipes we were attempting to clean, but the 3rd time we succeeded. 50 lbs of air pressure was more than sufficient to clean the ¼ inch diameter pipe of years of built up espresso grounds and spoilt milk. Unfortunately, I’d had my head down near the drain pipe, to report on the success of our cleaning endeavors. The resulting expulsion from the stuck pipe, sprayed espresso and milk goop all over the wall 10 feet away, ceiling 15 feet above, and my entire head and torso.

Small Business Doesn’t Mean Good BusinessWe talk a lot about entrepreneurship, or about being CEO of a company. Businessman is celebrated in the current climate and ecosystem.

There’s going to come a time in the next few years when that isn’t true, and we don’t put starting a business on a pedestal, but meanwhile…

Though we celebrate entrepreneurship at the moment, we aren’t talking about what it actually takes to maintain a successful company. Especially where a “successful” company means one that has a profit, doesn’t take on outsized debt, and remains in business!

What they don’t tell you - and I wish I’d known in starting Robin’s Cafe - is the bureaucratic hoops that have to be jumped every step of the way. To successfully operate Robin’s Cafe, I have:

• California State Limited Liability Company
• DBA (Doing Business As) Registration
• California State Seller’s Permit
• San Francisco Business Permit
• San Francisco Health Department Permit
• San Francisco Alcoholic Beverage Control Permit
• Outdoor Tables and Chairs Permitting
• And several more…

Now imagine all of the logistics necessary to maintain just the permitting! It is the furthest thing from glamorous work.

Closing

When I look back at Robin's Cafe, and especially now that a month has gone by, I'm mostly just grateful. To the 50+ employees I've had the pleasure of working with, the 200+ customers we've served each day, for the recognition of just how much work is required, and for all that I have learned along the way.

Look out for more from me over the coming months. More lessons learned; more stories.

Thanks for listening!

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I want to say a couple of words about today’s post and a new format I’m exploring for both The Robin Zander Show podcast, and this blog. Over the last 3 years, I’ve conducted over 200 hours of interviews, many of which have ended up on the podcast. I love conducting interviews, and have been honored to spend time with so many incredible thinkers. And… it is time to try something different.

Over the next few weeks, I’ll be posting regular podcast and blog posts - without a guest or an interview, but instead about my own experiences over the last few years, what I’m working on next.

I’m going to share some more about my journey, and answer some questions like “how do you open up a cafe” and “how do you sell a small business.” I’ve grown Robin’s Cafe to 15 employees in less than 3 years. How did I go from earning $40,000 a year in 2015, to more than $40,000 a month in 2017.

There's so much, personally and professionally, that I haven’t ever shared. So, welcome to a new version of the Robin Zander Show and this blog. I look forward to talking with you, and sharing stories. To start, this post is being published the same day that I’m selling Robin’s Cafe. So, before talking about the sale of my business, I thought I’d share a bit about the opening.

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I opened Robin’s Cafe on 3 weeks notice. I’ve written that line before, but the few people who really understand what that means and what it takes to do so are usually always restaurateurs - folks who have lived and worked in the restaurant industry. And for me - even though I lived it, and know it happened, it still feels almost impossible.

And I think that’s one of my takeaways from my life to date. You really never know until you try. Success and failure both feel so daunting - so impossible - that until we get there we can’t know. For me, the fear of failure has become almost a drive, a North Star to guide my path, and I hope over time to share how I’ve done things people say are impossible, and inspire you towards the same.

Here’s a bit about the opening of Robin’s Cafe in blog post and video form. But there are a few pieces of the story I’ve never shared.

Origin Story

Back in 2016, I was preparing to put on my conference Design for Dance. 5 weeks before the conference date, I went to the manager of the then-market that was onsite “Melange Market” to see about providing coffee and tea for my 175 guests. I was told that Melange Market would be closing, had sold to a new owner, and would not reopen until after my 2-day event. Fortunately, I sent an email to the then-Executive Director of the landlord company ODC, just to double check. I heard nothing back, and put the question of Melange Market out of my mind.

Then, 20 days before the start of Design for Dance, I received an email from ODC’s Executive Director. Rather than answering my questions, he introduced me to someone, with a brief note saying: “Robin is a community member, and is interested in Melange Market.” Matt, who turned out to own several, locally-famous restaurants, responded minutes later suggesting we meet the following day.

When we met up onsite at Melange Market, he presented me with a list of assets - the entire list of equipment, food stuffs, and more - onsite, and said “let me know what you’d like to buy. I’ll keep the rest.” I was dumbfounded. I had showed up just expecting conversation, and maybe to look behind the counter. Matt was prepared to sell to me, almost on the spot.

Fear as a Motivator

Over the next three weeks, I had to learn everything about running a small cafe, write a lease with the landlord ODC, raise more than $40,000, hire employees and actually learn how to serve customers. The list of To-Dos was daunting, but I learned a valuable lesson in that crazy 3 weeks. Every day, getting up at 5am to learn to open the cafe, and staying up (with wine) until 2am to write a lease, I asked myself the question: “Do I want to do this?” Every time, my answer was “maybe?” Digging a bit deeper - into each “Why” and “Why not” - I kept coming back to “I’m afraid.”

Fear is an incredible motivator. We use fear to keep ourselves safe in times of crisis, and also challenge the edges of our capabilities. One of my fears was that I would fail to run the cafe successfully, and lose all $40,000 of my investor’s money. I had to come to terms with that very real possibility - yes, that was a fear. But was that fear alone enough to not attempt opening the cafe? I realized that over 2 years of working at minimum wage in San Francisco (I took my worst case scenario to the extreme) I would be able to pay my investors back - even if I lost everything. Tim Ferriss calls this “Fear Setting,” and I’ve found it invaluable to imagine a worst case scenario, look squarely at the fear, and not decide that just because I’m afraid to avoid something I might otherwise want to do.

There was a lot of learn about running a cafe - in those 3 weeks, and in the 3 years since then. But my biggest learning has been about my own fear.

Over the last 6 months, I have been in the process of selling my small business - equipment, system, and all. Selling Robin’s Cafe as been a trial-by-fire in its own right, which I may talk about at some point in the future. In the Spring of 2018, I decided that it was, in fact, time to take my leave from Robin’s Cafe. I had built something that could flourish without my direct supervision, but that could continue to improve even more by an owner/operator who was onsite 40 hours/week. I’m thrilled with the new owners, and excited for the continued improvements that will come to the business I founded.

Here are a couple of lessons learned from three years of running a small business in San Francisco:

Showing Up with Love

We are not taught the skills necessary to run a business, and boy do I wish we were. These are actually the same skills necessary for parenting, for being a good friend, and - as most of us do - I’ve had to learn these skills the hard way. I’ve written elsewhere about a peak moment, when my employee called his experience at Robin’s Cafe the best job he’s ever had. This is the mark of a successful business. One that is able to stay operating - which means that it is profitable - while providing the best possible place to work for its employees. Because when you have happy people working for a company, you have happy customers - folks who come back again and again. Sure, Robin’s Cafe has great avocado toast. But more importantly, we’ve provided great customer service - an environment where the humans coming into the business have a positive experience with the people working there. This principle is something that I will strive to take forward - in anything that I do.

Showing up lovingly, is really the answer. Knowing that my responsibility within my organization, is to up as role model, a mentor, a teacher, and also an authority figure. Someone who holds the people within the organization to standards, to principles that they’ve agreed to, but does so without anger. I’ve had to learn to set clear consequences. If an employee did not wash a plate at Robin’s Cafe, there are consequences. But not because I’m angry or personally affronted. Rather, because they’ve agreed to the job, and this falls within this responsibility. It has been a process learning to show up for my employees in this way.

In the first 6 months of Robin’s Cafe, an employee would mess up and I would get furious! I quickly learned that when I was angry, employees quit. What did work, was love. And when they did mess up, asking a loving question: “How come you didn’t wash the plate, give that you’ve agreed to do so?” “Can I do anything to support you?” “How can we, together, do this better?” And then, eventually, if the behavior doesn’t change, being able to comfortably let them go.

Money & Robin’s Cafe

Another big learning from Robin’s Cafe was about money. When I began the cafe, the most I had ever earned in a month was about $10,000, and that was an exceptional month - working full-time for a technology company, and performing full-time with the San Francisco Opera. The most I had ever earned in a year way about $50,000. My very first month in operation of running Robin’s Cafe, I earned $20,000, and have earned as much as $50,000/month over the last years. Of course, what goes unsaid is that monthly earning is gross - which means before expenses. Out of that $50,000 comes the costs of bread, avocados, coffee beans, payroll, and everything else required to run the business. But even so, seeing $20,000 and then eventually even $50,000 flow through the cafe bank account each month, has expanded my view and facility around money. Money isn’t something I was ever taught. If only I had been taught how to balance a checkbook in middle school, or learned about “good debt” versus “bad debt” in college! The practice of learning to balance the books, process payroll, and even just see money come into the business and leave the business - all the while knowing that I’m personally responsible - has been life changing. My advice, to my younger self or to you, would be to start practicing!

Creating a Win-Win Business

A next topic that I want to convey, is that of creating win-win-win businesses. Robin’s Cafe has succeeded over the last several years because it has served the needs of many different groups of people. When we opened, 3173 17th Street in San Francisco, was a cold, dark corner. There was nobody working and nobody eating there. I was an opportunity to serve ODC - the dance company that owns our building, and the students of ODC. There are the technology companies that rent space on our street, and also the variety of industrial businesses that have existed in our area for more than the 10 years I lived in the area. Clearly, we had the opportunity to serve a diverse group of customers! But there was also serving the needs of Robin’s Cafe staff. How could I build the business so that employees could have a great place to work - of course they needed to get paid, but more personally, what could I do to make Robin’s Cafe a great place to work? And then my investors - the people who had trusted me and invested their money into my idea. Though many of them supported me out of love, it was important also that they see a return on their investment. Finally, I had to get paid, and the business, in order to survive, had to earn a profit.

I’ve come to see that the more different groups can win as a result of a business operating, the more likely it is to succeed. Why are Facebook and Amazon worth billions of dollars? Like them or not, it is because they serve the needs of billions of individual humans.

This next few months will be a very interesting period. Over the last 3 years, I have been the go-to when something goes wrong at Robin’s Cafe, 7 days a week. It is important to feel needed like that, and it has come to be something I’ve come to rely on. And, it has come to an end. I’ll be share that journey in future episodes, and I hope you’ll join in. In the meantime, thanks for following along on this journey!

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Wait, Wait! One Last Request

If you’ve read my blog or listened to the podcast over the years, what would you like more of? I’m in the midst of a major change, and excited to share more that is useful to you! Leave a comment below, and let me know!

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Larissa Conte is a systems coach, ceremony designer, and rites of passage guide through her business, Wayfinding. She also works with The Ready doing organization transformation to fuel the future of work. Larissa specializes in facilitating transformation and alignment across scales to foster power that serves.

With deep experience in the energetics and mechanics of transformation, Larissa helps individuals and groups develop refined sensing and listening, shed what no longer serves, and dynamically steward greater creative energy in their lives and companies. Her work weaves 10+ years of experience in the diverse fields of leadership coaching, organizational culture consulting, ecosystems science, strategy design, holistic healing/wellness, ceremony, somatic intimacy coaching, and wilderness survival. She’s worked with hundreds of leaders across startups and the Fortune 100, and is based in San Francisco.

As change agents, within or outside of organizations, attendees of Responsive Conference are those most responsible for other’s transformation. Onstage at this year’s conference, Larissa will invite us to consider our own blind spots, and the taboos we are failing to address that keep us from doing our best work.

Show Notes
3:00 Thinking and sensing
7:30 Physical injuries and emotional challenges

• Mentions: Ishmael by Daniel Quinn

9:45 Wayfinding
13:00 Moved by feeling
17:30 Minimum amount of challenge for maximum change
19:15 Rite of passage
23:45 Larissa’s personal rituals
26:30 Beginnings and endings
30:00 Closing a meeting
31:15 What is going on culturally
36:30 Tensions coming to the surface
42:00 Unique voice

• Mentions: Josh Waitzkin - Searching for Bobby Fischer

45:30 Redefine mastery
48:00 Resources:

• Health: Qigong
• Relationship: The Somatica Training
• Book: Brave New Work by Aaron Dignan
• Rite of passage Organization: School of Lost Borders
• Larissa’s Website

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I’m excited to share a chapter of my book, Responsive: What It Takes to Create a Thriving Organization. The full audiobook version of Responsive comes out in late September 2018, but in the meantime, I am excited to share it in podcast form.

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Here's an excerpt:

To tackle 21st-century challenges organizations may need to structure themselves quite differently than they have historically.

Throughout this book, we have seen a wide variety of examples of Responsive principles in practice. A common theme is that there is no one-size-fits-all solution to how we structure the organizations of today. Instead, each of us must find a level of comfort with the particular Responsive systems and processes that support our needs. If an organization’s leaders can be honest with themselves about current realities—what is working and what isn’t—they may find that to remain adaptable requires changes to their organizational structure.

A resilient organization adapts itself, constantly, to the ecosystem within which it exists. The era of Taylor’s principles of scientific management is over; but instead of disregarding Taylorism or any models for organizing, a Responsive organization keeps in mind those ideas without losing sight of the new demands placed upon organizations today.

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If you’ve enjoyed this chapter of Responsive, you can purchase a Kindle or print version of the book on Amazon. And be sure to check out the Responsive Conference, coming up September 24-25th in Queens, NY.

View Details

I’m excited to share a chapter of my book, Responsive: What It Takes to Create a Thriving Organization. The full audiobook version of Responsive comes out in late September 2018, but in the meantime, I am excited to share it in podcast form.

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Here's an excerpt:

You might think that disruptive, forward thinking, companies like Uber and Google would have addressed inclusion and diversity. But Uber has faced a slew of recent challenges: including well-documented allegations of sexual misconduct throughout the company. Meanwhile, Google, is facing Department of Labor allegations about extreme gender pay disparities. Outside of technology, too, this problem is pervasive. More cases of sexual harassment, in fields ranging from journalism to government, are becoming public with increasing regularity.

Diversity and inclusion issues range well beyond gender and include discrimination related to race, religion and disability to name a few. Companies need to be open to listening to employee concerns about inclusion, and fostering environments that encourage dissenting viewpoints. Organizations should strive to create environments in which people can thrive.

Diversity and inclusion are complex concepts, and a full discussion of their impacts exceeds the scope of this book. What’s relevant for Responsive organizations is that diversity of opinions can create higher-performing teams, and that diverse populations continue to experience discrimination and exclusion.

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If you’ve enjoyed this chapter of Responsive, you can purchase a Kindle or print version of the book on Amazon. And be sure to check out the Responsive Conference, coming up September 24-25th in Queens, NY.

View Details

I’m excited to share a chapter of my book, Responsive: What It Takes to Create a Thriving Organization.

The full audiobook version of Responsive comes out in late September 2018, but in the meantime, I am excited to share it in podcast form.

--

Here's an excerpt:

Lessons in Transparency Just Try It On

Not every company is going to immediately experiment with the transparency of normally private data. The specifics of a particular industry matter, and regulated industries may not always have a choice about what they are obliged or forbidden to share.

But it is a common trend for Responsive organizations to at least experiment with the openness of information. Information is a critical factor in empowering all people within the company to do their jobs well. Transparency can change mindsets, broaden people’s perspectives, and create positive effects on culture. If making information public is not an option, consider making more information available internally.

Leverage Technology

Technology is both a driver of growth and a challenge for Responsive companies. Technology is disrupting entire industries and changing consumer patterns and communication possibilities globally. No edict says companies must be fully transparent, and yet the world is increasingly connected. Data and knowledge that are guarded heavily may be leaked or accidentally distributed despite best efforts and it can be useful to recognize and adapt to this fact. Organizations willing to proactively explore how technology and data openness can create benefits are a step ahead of those more guarded and reluctant to embrace the realities of technology progression.

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If you’ve enjoyed this chapter of Responsive, you can purchase a Kindle or print version of the book on Amazon. And be sure to check out the Responsive Conference, coming up September 24-25th in Queens, NY.

View Details

I’m excited to share a chapter of my book, Responsive: What It Takes to Create a Thriving Organization.

The full audiobook version of Responsive comes out in late September 2018, but in the meantime, I am excited to share it in podcast form.

--

Here's an excerpt:

How to Experiment Experimentation is at the heart of any Responsive organization. The goal is to react quickly with the best information at hand, and then respond to feedback, whether it be from clients, the market or employees. The following three components are needed before companies can experiment successfully.

Trust

A vital component of any organization that wants to experiment is trust in the people actually doing the work. There was a point in catering the first annual Responsive Conference where the outcome was simply out of my control and I had to trust the people to whom I had given authority. In Buffer’s experiments with remote work, there was a willingness to trust that their employees would be productive outside of a traditional office setting. Had things gone poorly, they could always have moved back to a single location.

Culture

Culture is the second principle which makes a successful experimental company. General Electric couldn’t have embarked on the changes former CEO Jeff Immelt ushered in without a willingness to experiment with new visions, plans, and actions (see Chapter 6). While opinions of success vary, depending on whether we’re considering shareholder value or improved culture, GE is now a more agile company with a more human-focused culture than it had before.

Similarly, at Culture Amp, it took Didier Elzinga’s thoughtfulness and a company focused on the well-being of people, to leave behind a model of compensation that did not suit the needs of that organization.

Incremental Change

Finally, incremental change can be used to ease the process of implementing Responsive principles. Incremental change can minimize losses and maximize learning from “failed” experiments and allow successful trials to be quickly built upon, scaled, or improved further. This doesn’t mean all Responsive change must be small (as we’ll see in the next chapter), but it is important to factor in the gains afforded by small cumulative adaptations.

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If you’ve enjoyed this chapter of Responsive, you can purchase a Kindle or print version of the book on Amazon. And be sure to check out the Responsive Conference, coming up September 24-25th in Queens, NY.

View Details

I’m excited to share a chapter of my book, Responsive: What It Takes to Create a Thriving Organization.

The full audiobook version of Responsive comes out in late September 2018, but in the meantime, I am excited to share it in podcast form.

--

Here's an excerpt:

Characteristics of a Cult—or Any Poorly Run Company The mechanisms that cults use to attract and keep members are actually used by all organizations to some degree. Cults just do things in extremes. * Cults place a “high demand” on their members, progressively raising the bar as people move toward the inner circles of the organization. * They allow for varying degrees of commitment and involvement, but the more members become involved within the organization, the more external communities are forbidden. * Cults are ideologically intense and offer simplistic answers. * They encourage conformity within the organization.

Cults are jealous of inclusion in other organizations and actively try to shut down member’s participation in alternative communities.

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If you’ve enjoyed this chapter of Responsive, you can purchase a Kindle or print version of the book on Amazon. And be sure to check out the Responsive Conference, coming up September 24-25th in Queens, NY.

View Details

I’m excited to share a chapter of my book, Responsive: What It Takes to Create a Thriving Organization.

The full audiobook version of Responsive comes out in late September 2018, but in the meantime, I am excited to share it in podcast form.

--

Here's an excerpt:

Each person must determine how they will lead, but that leadership always stems from character and values. The leadership demonstrated by Stanley McChrystal, Pam Slim, and Adam Pisoni is rooted in what they personally value. The particulars of how that leadership materializes will vary depending on the situation, but an organization can’t surpass the quality of its leadership. As Chris Fussell has said of the team of teams approach, leader behavior is the essential element that allows a plan to succeed. Investing in leadership—your own and that of your teams—can only pay dividends in the long run.

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If you’ve enjoyed this chapter of Responsive, you can purchase a Kindle or print version of the book on Amazon. And be sure to check out the Responsive Conference, coming up September 24-25th in Queens, NY.

View Details

I’m excited to share a chapter of my book, Responsive: What It Takes to Create a Thriving Organization.

The full audiobook version of Responsive comes out in late September 2018, but in the meantime, I am excited to share it in podcast form.

--

Here's an excerpt:

In the past there were big and complex tasks that required many people working on them. The 'transaction costs' involved to get coordination between people was high, so the concept of a Manager was introduced. As the number of Managers increased, a Manager of the Managers was created... and hierarchies formed.

This resulted in order, clarity of authority, rank, and power. They reinforced a single primary connection: manager to worker, and enabled a command and control style of leadership that was terrifically successful during the industrial era.

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If you’ve enjoyed Chapter 4 of Responsive, you can purchase a Kindle or print version of the book on Amazon. And be sure to check out the Responsive Conference, coming up September 24-25th in Queens, NY.

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I hope you enjoy this talk from Responsive Conference 2016 with former Navy SEAL and New York Times best-selling author Chris Fussell (@fussellchris) alongside Rachel Mendelowitz (@rachelowitz) of the McChrystal Group as they discuss “Team of Teams” and new ways of organizing companies of the future.

Alongside General Stan McChrystal, Chris runs the McChrystal Group - an organizational design consultancy that works with companies all over the world to do in industry what Stan, Chris and the US Military did during the Iraq War. In the book Teams of Teams, Stanley McChrystal and Chris outline how they took the special operations branch of the US Military - a stereotypically bureaucratic organization - and transformed it into a adaptive, agile system.

This video was recorded at the 1st Annual Responsive Conference in 2016.

Learn more:
http://responsiveconference.com

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I’m very pleased to share, exclusively for this podcast, a chapter of my book, Responsive: What It Takes to Create a Thriving Organization. The full audiobook version of Responsive comes out in late September 2018, but in the meantime, I am excited to share it out in podcast form.

Here’s an excerpt. Subscribe and listen to The Robin Zander Show for the full chapter!

The Morning Star Company Doug Kirkpatrick was one of the earliest employees at The Morning Star Company. Founded in 1990, Morning Star would go on to trailblaze self-management in business. But as might be expected of any start-up, let alone one committed to innovative management, the company's early days were intense times.

Morning Star is a tomato-ingredients manufacturer based out of Sacramento, California. The agribusiness and food-processing industries are notoriously old-school, known for strict command and control structures and rigid bureaucracies. The small group of employees who initiated the Morning Star project had a six-month window to start up the first factory and had committed to beginning operations on a specified day and even at a specific hour. They were a high-performance group, and Doug describes those initial weeks as a high state of flow, with each person striving cooperatively to bring the new company into existence. The company consisted of seasoned employees, and Doug, at thirty-four, was considered quite young.

Several months before the factory opened, the owner of The Morning Star Company, Chris Rufer, called a leadership meeting. The Morning Star founder and twenty-four members of the team met on the job site. They pulled steel folding chairs into a circle, and Chris passed around a page titled “Morning Star Colleague Principles.”

The sheet included just two points:

• Don’t use force.
• Keep your commitments.

The group spent several hours discussing what these principles meant. Questions cropped up. What happens if you have to fire somebody? What if someone quits? In the end, no one found a reason to reject these ideas, and every person there had reasons to embrace them.

Together, the group concluded that these two points were necessary and sufficient, and they would make up the core of all human interactions at the company. Adopting these principles wouldn’t change the day-to-day operations of the nascent company, but they’d have clear guideposts by which they’d proceed.

What they perhaps didn’t fully process at that moment (and what Doug has spent his career implementing, first at Morning Star and now with companies all over the world) was the far-reaching ramifications of adopting those simple principles. Consider, for example, that “Don’t Use Force” effectively implies:

• No one can require anyone to do anything.
• No one can unilaterally make anyone do anything.
• No one can fire anyone unilaterally.
• Each person has a voice within the company and each voice is protected; no democracy or majority rules.
• Checks and balances will be inherent.

At the time, it didn’t register how profoundly that meeting, and its eventual outcomes, would impact the team, and its members individually. As Doug said, “What we did would end up being very radical—but we were so busy we didn’t necessarily see it since it didn’t seem immediately to impact our day-to-day lives.” More than two decades later, those principles—don’t use force and keep your commitments—continue to serve as the bedrock of a successful, self-managed company.

Shortly before opening, Doug and his colleagues celebrated his thirty-fourth birthday outside the same farmhouse where Chris Rufer had called that fateful leadership meeting. The company has gone on to become a model of self-management and the world’s largest tomato processor, handling between 25% and 30% of U.S. tomato crops.

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If you’ve enjoyed this chapter of Responsive, you can purchase a Kindle or print version of the book on Amazon. And be sure to check out the Responsive Conference, coming up September 24-25th in Queens, NY.

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…as the pace of change accelerates, the challenges we face are becoming less and less predictable. Those practices that were so successful in the past are counter-productive in less predictable environments. In contrast, Responsive Organizations are designed to thrive in less predictable environments…

— Responsive Org Manifesto

The world is changing more rapidly than we have ever seen before in human history. According to 2012 estimates, members of the S&P 500 were expected on average to remain in the index for only eighteen years, compared to the sixty-one years they might have expected in 1958. The anticipated lifespan of companies has dropped dramatically over the last few decades.

We also see this in the rise of the ridesharing industry—Lyft and Uber, among others—which was enabled by the proliferation of smartphones. This new industry seized a large part of the taxi market, which previously had been considered stable, if not untouchable. Similarly, the rise of home sharing—and most notably, AirBNB—was made possible by the hyper-connectivity of the Internet Age, and disrupted the traditional hotel industry.

Another example of the changing nature of the business landscape is the 2017 acquisition of Whole Foods by Amazon.com. The day the acquisition was announced, Whole Foods stock rocketed almost 30%, while the value of competitors in the grocery business dropped precipitously. The presumption, it seems, is that disruption of the grocery industry is now inevitable.

There’s a broad lesson in the emergence of ride sharing, home sharing, and the Whole Foods acquisition—which is that any organization or industry is liable to be shaken up at any moment. The goal of every company in the 21st century should be to become resilient, flexible, and have the capacity to respond to inevitable change. Industries, today, can change with unprecedented speed.

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If you’ve enjoyed Chapter 2 of Responsive, you can purchase a Kindle or print version of the book on Amazon. And be sure to check out the Responsive Conference, coming up September 24-25th in Queens, NY.

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I’m very pleased to share, exclusively for this podcast, the first chapter of my book, Responsive: What It Takes to Create a Thriving Organization. The full audiobook version of Responsive comes out in late September 2018, but in the meantime, I am excited to share it out in podcast form.

Here’s an excerpt. Subscribe and listen to The Robin Zander Show for the full chapter!

On the Shoulders of Giants Responsive has been built on a community of which I am just a single member.

I am grateful to the six people wrote the Responsive Org manifesto, and began a movement: Adam Pisoni, Aaron Dignan, Matthew Partovi, Mike Arauz, Steve Hopkins and Alexis Gonzales-Black. They put words to a problem faced by organizations today and gave us a language to describe the challenges and tensions that have long existed in the workplace.

I would not have written this book without the friendship of Steve Hopkins, who taught me how to run an un-conference, and the handful of collaborators with whom I produced my first Responsive events.

I’m indebted to the fifty-plus leaders who I’ve interviewed on my podcast, The Robin Zander Show, who described big ideas like non-hierarchy and holacracy in simple language and gave me hope that I could write a book to do the same.

How To Use This Book My career path has never followed a traditional route. My first job out of college was as a management consultant, with a gig as a circus performer nights and weekends. Of course, I couldn’t tell the consulting company that I was in the circus, but I also couldn’t admit to my fellow circus artists that I wore a suit to work. I am not content to live in such a binary world. I want to live in a world that encourages the full expression of every individual, and I am dedicated to building it. Improving the ways we work seems like a great place to start.

Responsive is a compilation of tactics and accompanying short stories about innovators on the front lines of the future of work. It is designed to be a choose-your-own-adventure exploration into how we work in the modern era, the approaches and perspectives employed by high performing organizations, and what makes those methods so effective.

While this book can be read cover to cover, I have designed it so that you can jump to those sections most interesting or relevant to you right now. Ultimately Responsive is intended as a reference guide as much as a road map—a resource you can return to again and again as you dive deeper into Responsive and the future of work.

A Responsive Café I have a vested interest in discovering what works for myself and my small team. Throughout this book, I’ll share stories about my small business, a coffee shop in San Francisco, where I work with my ten-person staff to serve coffee and avocado toast and to build community.

I founded “Robin’s Café” in late April 2016, with no prior experience as a restaurateur but armed with a clear purpose: to foster a nascent community that I knew could exist in our corner of San Francisco. We had exactly three weeks from inception to opening day, so, unsurprisingly, our first week of operations was a mess. Attendees of a conference I had organized on site wanted to support the café, creating a bona fide lunch rush on our very first day.

In those early weeks, we were a team of four, often making up recipes on the spot to cover orders. I look back on those times now, after having a tough day, and realize that no matter how terrible things might seem, it will never be as chaotic and insane as those first few weeks.

We desperately needed additional staff. One day, a man named Frank quietly dropped off his resume during our usual morning rush. I was up to my elbows managing an exploding keg of cold brew. But even in the midst of a coffee emergency, it quickly became clear that Frank was professional, playful, and knowledgeable about the food service industry. I hired him, and he soon became indispensable at the café.

On May 20, 2016, Frank had been scheduled to open the café. Around 9:30 a.m., I got a call that Frank hadn’t shown up. “Was he sick?” I wondered. I checked to see if he’d sent me any messages, but there were none. I called him, but it went to voicemail. A week later, I sent an email, mostly in jest, with the subject, “Are you still alive?” The staff and I just assumed that Frank became a “no call, no show,” something not uncommon in the service industry. Frank’s cutting contact was a simple case of job abandonment. Still, it somehow didn’t seem like Frank, and I wanted to make sure he was okay. I tracked down his brother on social media and messaged him. I heard nothing for several days.

Then, out of the blue, Frank’s brother called me. “I’m sorry to have to tell you this,” I remember him saying, “My brother is dead. He was hit and killed by a train.” In that moment of shock, while I digested what I'd just heard, Frank’s brother went on: “I want you to know how happy he was to be working at Robin’s Café.”

Frank’s death is a constant reminder to me of how truly transient and changeable business—and life—can be. As a small business owner in those first few weeks, I had to be resilient, not just in my response to Frank’s death, but to be able to mentor and support those at our café and in the community who knew him. I was determined to build into the ethos of our organization this realization that circumstances can change in an instant. I wanted my team to be resilient when times got tough and grateful for the days when work felt more like play. I like to think that in some way this commitment to resilience and good humor is a small homage to Frank.

That same ethos is what has compelled me to write this book and to share just some of the ways that ground-breaking organizations and individuals are exploring human-centered work. This book is an invitation to see the value of Responsive approaches and bring them into your organization as fits your vision and culture.

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If you’ve enjoyed Chapter 1 of Responsive, you can purchase a Kindle or print version of the book on Amazon.

And be sure to check out the Responsive Conference, coming up September 24-25th in Queens, NY.

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Building Yammer

Adam Pisoni (@adampisoni) co-founded Yammer, which sold to Microsoft for 1.2 billion dollars, recounts how he learned about about Conway’s law. “At Yammer, we believed in rapid product iteration. Once we realized the organizational structure was part of the product, we then had to believe in rapid organization iteration." The engineering mantra at Yammer became: “We’re not smarter than other people. We just iterate faster.”

This insight led Adam to recognize that he and the engineering and product teams at Yammer were not just building a product but building a company (at least, if they were going to be effective). He began to investigate what it would mean not just to rapidly iterate on Yammer’s product but to iterate the organization’s structure itself.

In other words, he began to explore whether Yammer could become more Responsive. What Adam was clear on was their product didn’t exist in isolation. Yammer, as a communication platform for enterprise businesses, was particularly well placed to recognize the challenges of the current working world. Eventually, Adam put these thoughts into a manifesto and shared them with CEOs and C-level executives. The response was an enthusiastic affirmation of their ideas. The result of this thinking led Adam to co-found the Responsive Org movement.

Experiments in Education

Adam realized the education system in North America is largely still reliant on an assembly-model way of teaching and thinking. Consider the structure of most schools: there are grades, segregated by age; there are alarm bells which tell students when to move from one classroom to the next. The most common form of learning is to passively sit and absorb lectured lessons.

More subtly, subjects are taught according to a linear progression. Math education in the United States, for example, moves from algebra, to geometry, to advanced algebra, to precalculus, to calculus. This progression to trains students to think about math in a way that only entrenches a hierarchical, linear view of how to how the world works. School in the 21st Century is still designed to produce people to work in factories.

So Adam was bold enough to tackle revitalizing the education system, by optimizing administrators’ time and budgets. He founded Abl Schools, a collaborative platform for administrators and teachers. Abl has re-envisioned how principals relate with their teachers and facilities and how schools use their time. The idea is to help schools better manage the day-to-day to be able to achieve its educational goals, starting with the company’s first product, a cloud-based master scheduler.

Exciting possibilities emerge when we reconsider even behemoth institutions like the U.S. education system and to experiment with new approaches that leverage technology and new models of collaborating. What is necessary is the willingness to experiment.

A Diverse Founding Team

Adam Pisoni has been open about the challenges of creating diversity in founding his company Abl Schools. He writes:

"If your founding team is homogenous, it will likely develop a narrow culture which is well suited for that narrow group of people. That culture won’t be as self-aware of the lack of inclusion in the culture, but it will feel inclusive for everyone within the tight knit founding team. As new employees with different backgrounds join, they will be more likely to reject or be rejected from the culture than to add to it. While you may be celebrating how strong a culture and tight a team you have, you may also be unaware of the ways you’re actually reminding that new employee that they don’t belong."

While there is a lot of conversation about fostering an inclusive company culture, very few Silicon Valley companies have an equal gender split between male and female employees, and even fewer have women or underrepresented groups at the highest levels of leadership.

As Adam explains, this is doesn’t actually mean teams of straight white men can’t produce great companies. He argues: “I believe diverse founding teams can produce better outcomes. A team of white men can come up with good ideas. But I believe a diverse team can come up with better ones.” The curiosity and perseverance Adam has demonstrated at Abl Schools is an example of what can be done in any number of genres by founders just starting out.

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If you enjoyed this episode of the Robin Zander Show, you might enjoy hearing me and Adam is conversation, recorded at the Responsive book launch party last November.

This video was recorded live at the 1st Annual Responsive Conference in 2016. Come see Adam speak live again this year at the 3rd Annual Responsive Conference on September 24 and 25, 2018 in Queens, New York.

Learn more:
http://responsiveconference.com

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I hope you enjoy this talk with Jennifer Dennard from Responsive Conference 2016. Jennifer is the co-founder of Range Labs and formerly ran People Operations at Medium, focusing on organization design, people operations, and diversity & inclusion.

Jennifer is passionate about helping teams work together better. In this talk, Jennifer talks about human resources and a future of work that is best for our employees.

This talk was recorded live at the 1st Annual Responsive Conference in September 2016. Learn more at http://responsiveconference.com

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Bob Gower helps organizations become faster, better, and happier. He is an authority on agile development, lean theory, and responsive organizational design, and the author of Agile Business: A Leader’s Guide to Harnessing Complexity.

Bob has advised leaders at numerous companies—including GE, Ford, Chanel, and Spotify—in creating more effective organizations. He holds an MBA in Sustainable Management, is a Certified Positive Psychology Practitioner, and speaks and publishes regularly on what it takes to build great organizations.

Bob is the author of the new book “Getting to Hell Yes”, along with his wife Alexandra Jamieson, and together they will be leading a workshop at Responsive Conference 2018 on generative conversations that will change your business (and the rest of your life).

This video was recorded at the 1st Annual Responsive Conference in 2016.

Learn more:
http://responsiveconference.com

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I’m pleased to share this talk at Responsive Conference 2017 with Steve Hopkins (@stevehopkins), director of Customer Success at Culture Amp and a founding member of the Responsive Org movement.

Steve Hopkins is the Director of Customer Success at Culture Amp and a founding member of the Responsive Org movement.

Steve is passionate about helping clients develop a responsive operating culture that they can be proud of. At Culture Amp, Steve does this by guiding clients through successful culture change programs using the Culture Amp HR and People Analytics platform.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErG2ApiL1J4

This talk was recorded live at the 2nd Annual Responsive Conference in September 2017. Learn more at http://responsiveconference.com

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I’m pleased to share this talk at Responsive Conference 2017 with Charles Best (@CharlesBest), founder and CEO of DonorsChoose.org.

Charles Best is an American philanthropist and entrepreneur. He is the founder and CEO of DonorsChoose.org, a crowdfunding platform for K-12 teachers serving in US schools.

Charles launched the organization out of a Bronx public high school where he taught history. DonorsChoose.org is one of Oprah Winfrey's "ultimate favorite things" and was named by Fast Company as one of the "50 Most Innovative Companies in the World."

This video was recorded at the 2nd Annual Responsive Conference in New York City in 2017. Learn more: http://responsiveconference.com

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I’m pleased to share this talk at Responsive Conference 2017 with Meg Poe, professor at New York University.

Megan Poe is a psychiatrist and interpersonal psychoanalyst who teaches one of New York University’s most popular and fastest-growing classes. Her topic? Love! At this year’s Responsive Conference, she’ll explore with us what it takes to live, love, and work well.

In addition to her professorship at NYU, Meg has a private practice in New York City. Meg’s mission is to help people feel most present and alive in their creative flow and inner life. She specializes in helping adults create more-intimate, fulfilling relationships in their lives and work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5dzQsQjrA0

This talk was recorded live at the 2nd Annual Responsive Conference in September 2017. Learn more at http://responsiveconference.com

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I'm pleased to share this keynote address by my friend Aaron Dignan, founder of The Ready, at Responsive Conference 2017.

Aaron Dignan sees the same phenomenon everywhere he looks. Our most trusted and important institutions – in business, healthcare, government, philanthropy, and beyond – are struggling. They're confronted with the fact that the scale and bureaucracy that once made them strong are liabilities in an era of constant change.

Aaron is the founder of The Ready and a founding member of the Responsive Org movement.

This talk was recorded live at the 2nd Annual Responsive Conference in September 2017. We're gearing up for Responsive Conference 2018 on September 24th and 25th in New York City, and excited to have The Ready lead an interactive Teaming simulation.

Learn more at responsiveconference.com

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I am so excited for today’s interview with two guests. Today we are speaking with Anthony Kim (@Anthonx), the founder and CEO of Education Elements, as well as Alexis Gonzales-Black (@Gonza2ax), a former guest on the podcast and speaker at Responsive Conference.

We are here today to talk about their new book, The New School Rules: 6 Vital Practices for Thriving and Responsive Schools. I had a blast conducting this interview and sitting down with them, and I hope you enjoy as much as I did!

Show Notes

1:30 How Anthony and Alexis met
4:30 Holacracy at Education Elements
7:00 Check ins and check outs
9:00 Balancing tensions
12:15 Assumptions versus known facts
14:15 Alexis’ background in education
15:30 Recruitment and retention
17:45 Inefficient processes in education
24:00 Team of teams autonomy
27:15 Tailor Responsive concepts to fit your personal teams
30:00 Sharing information transparently
32:30 School structures have not revolutionized enough
36:00 The New School Rules book structure
38:00 Planning and predicting
42:15 How to make change with mini experiments
45:15 Creating better work conditions for teachers
49:30 Safe enough to try
52:30 Contact Alexis and Anthony:
Website: The New School Rules
Amazon: The New School Rules - If you like the book, please leave a review!
Linkedin: Alexis and Anthony
Twitter: Alexis, Anthony, The New School Rules
Anthony’s Website: Education Elements
Alexis’ Website: Thoughtful Org

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My guest today is the co-founder of the global phenomenon of AcroYoga Jason Neymar (@jasonnemer). I’ve followed Jason’s work for years, having watched the rise of AcroYoga at a distance over the last 10+ years, so it was a pleasure to sit down and talk about physical practice, the healing arts, AcroYoga, and much more.

I’m in awe of the global movement Jason has built, and we dive deep into some of the things he has done - and is doing - to make AcroYoga one of the most friendly and welcoming physical communities I’ve experienced.

I was connected to Jason by his co-founder and my dear friend Jenny Sauer-Klein. If you haven’t, I highly recommend listening to that conversation, as well.

As a physical nerd and athlete, I’ve long looked forward to talking about AcroYoga and I hope you enjoy this as much as I did. Here is Jason Neymar.

Show Notes

2:30 Finding gymnastics and acro yoga
6:00 Designing AcroYoga to be accessible
10:00 Jason’s physical practice
12:00 Inclusivity and play
16:30 Discipline met with openness
19:00 Gymnastics as a gateway to movement
22:15 Pros and cons of social media and the internet
25:45 Remedies to cyber addiction
27:45 Healing arts of acro yoga
33:15 Emotional cycles in healing
36:30 Touch and gender barriers
41:00 Art and science of acro yoga
43:00 Physical disciplines Jason recommends
45:45 Find AcroYoga:
Website
Youtube
Facebook
48:30 Future of acro yoga
50:30 AcroYoga Fest: Divine Play

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My guest today is Mark Fisher, who regularly shows up wearing a unicorn head - atypical of someone who runs several gyms in midtown manhattan. Mark is the co-owner of Mark Fisher Fitness, and the consulting group, Business for Unicorns.

Mark and I share a common background in the performing arts, and it was fun for me to hear how Mark has taken that background and applied it to his entrepreneurial efforts both at his gyms and as a consultant. As someone who has long thought of creating a gym or physical center, I loved this conversation. Even more so, though, Mark’s passion for culture and people shone through.

I’m also pleased to share that Mark Fisher is going to be one of our speakers at Responsive Conference 2018, which will be taking place on September 24th and 25th in New York City. Pick up a ticket to hear him speak live.

I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did!

Show Notes
3:30 Balancing ridiculousness at Mark Fisher Fitness
9:15 Starting a fitness business
12:30 Combining creativity with vision execution
15:00 Business for Unicorns
19:45 Soft skills in hard systems and the Unicorn Society
22:00 Current state of fitness
26:00 Advice for building a gym
31:00 Books:

• The Personal MBA by Joshua Kaufman
• The E-myth Revisited by Michael Gerber
• Delivering Happiness by Tony Hsieh
• Good to Great by Jim Collins
• Good Business by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi
• Flow by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi
• The Advantage by Patrick Lencioni
• The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni
• The Fifth Discipline: The Art & Practice of the Learning Organization by Peter Senge

33:30 Loving community
38:00 Cultural health
40:00 What’s next for Mark
43:15 Constant improvement
48:00 Find more about Mark:

• Businessforunicorns.com
• Markfisherfitness.com
• Markfisherhumanbeing.com
• Facebook
• Instagram

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I first got to know today’s guest through my work at Socos, alongside Vivienne Ming. Over the last several years, I’ve heard a name mentioned in a variety of unlikely contexts - by Chris Anderson, the CEO of TED, Perry Chen, the Co-Founder of Kickstarter, and Beth Comstock, the Vice Chair at GE.

My guest today is Sunny Bates, a behind-the-scenes master connector of many of the most innovative companies, personalities, and artists that you’ve heard of, and many that you haven’t.

Sunny sits on the board of Kickstarter, the MIT Media Lab, and TED. She advises companies like GE and Credit Suisse on new initiatives and is the go-to resource when companies like P&G and The Guardian need a new breakthrough.

As you’ll hear, Sunny is deeply committed to culture and the arts. I was startled to learn that she had hosted world-famous musician, Amanda Palmer, and blogger, Maria Popova, to her home for a house party.

In this interview, we discuss how Sunny has built an incredible network of innovators, spanning more than 40,000 people, how her enthusiasm for spontaneous encounters led to her role at Kickstarter, among others, and some of the trends she is most excited for in the future.

Please enjoy!

Show Notes
2:30 Sunny’s connections
5:30 Building a network
10:30 Adding value to other’s work and lives
13:30 We learn quickest alongside an expert
16:45 Exploring our creative side
19:15 Kickstarter
22:00 Looking at the big picture
24:30 A career as a series of projects
29:00 Trends in the future of work
32:15 Equality
34:45 Acknowledgment and gratitude
38:00 It’s never too late to give thanks or apologize
39:45 Compensation
44:00 Books: The State of Affairs by Esther Perel
46:30 Website: sunnybates.com
Twitter: @SunnyBates
Ted Talk

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My guest Andrew Barnett is the founder of Linea Caffe, a coffee roastery and wholesale company, which was one of the first vendors we began working with at Robin’s Cafe in 2016.

In this interview, we discuss how Andrew first introduced himself to me in those early days of the cafe, the humanness that he brings to his work, and his deep knowledge of coffee.

We discuss how the coffee industry has changed over the last 20 years, what it takes to create a thriving business, and why Andrew loves food service. He shares how he thinks about his company and what he does to build an inclusive culture at Linea Caffe.

If you’re interested in a unique perspective on building successful businesses and cultures, I hope you enjoy this interview as much as I did.

Show Notes

2:15 How Andrew and Robin met

5:15 Andrew’s interest in coffee and human service

8:30 The antithesis of Starbucks

11:30 Roasting coffee

13:45 Cup of Excellence program

17:30 The “ah ha” moment

20:00 Linea quality

24:45 Selling Echo Cafe to Intelligentsia

26:15 Third wave movement

28:15 Moving back to San Francisco and starting Linea

31:15 Andrew’s approach to people

35:00 Linea’s retail and roasting locations

37:30 What made this work for Andrew

40:45 Future of coffee

43:45 Find out more: http://lineacaffe.com/

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Every year, for nearly the last decade, I've conducted an annual review.

When writing a personal annual review, my process looks like this:

• Going on the week by week view of my 2017 calendar and listing out every single thing that I spent my time doing. Given that most days I usually have 10-20 things on my calendar scheduled per day, this ends up being 4 or 5 handwritten pages. It goes faster than I would expect but usually takes about 2 hours. I list everything from phone calls, trips, and time spent in transit to meals (personal or professional), time at the cafe, time spent meeting vendors, and weekly standing meetings.
• I go through and sort all of the items listed by category: business appointments, hours spent writing, hours spent exercising, hours working at the cafe.
• Once I’ve organized everything by category, I give it a positive value judgement - a score from 1-10 on how much joy I derived from this activity, and a negative value judgement - a score from negative 1-10 on how much dissatisfaction I got from this activity. Each data point gets two specific numbers.
• I mostly pay attention to the high scores of joy and the high scores of dissatisfaction. I circle the 8, 9, 10s of both positive and negative. I’ll list those out by peak experience by the positives like surfing, travel with my family, and time with my girlfriend, and the negatives like raising sponsorship, handling vendors at Robin’s Cafe, and time spent driving.
• Next, I take this into action for the new year by grading the quality of my experiences over the year. If there are specific people that fall in the negative 8, 9, or 10 category, I may have to sever ties with them, which can be very challenging. I may email the person outlining the reasons why I am taking steps to set new boundaries in our relationship.
  • Ex: When I did this reflection in 2016, I noticed that there was a person that I had spent a lot of time with that year who I hadn’t enjoyed the quality of our time spent together. I asked myself - would I rather spend this time with this person or would I rather spend this time alone? To make a change going forward, I stopped calling him up. He invited me to a few things this year, and I declined. It was a pretty easy change.
  • Ex: Writing - I spent a lot of time writing in 2017. How much satisfaction did I get from the act of that process? Is that something worth repeating in 2018?
  • Ex: Time spent exercising - I spent significantly less time exercising in 2017 than in 2015 when I studied ballet every day. Is that amount of time per day enough? If the answer is no, I can schedule time to exercise everyday for a few hours in my calendar for 2018 for first few months.
• Finally, I write down the 3 - 5 most significant changes or projects that I accomplished for the year (my trip to Morocco, my training in Puerto Rico, the 2nd Annual Responsive Conference, Responsive the book, and my relationship).

Significant Events & Projects in 2017 Morocco

I’ve written about cultural lessons learned on my trip to Morocco but less so about the importance of time spent with my parents. Growing up, I traveled with my immediate family several weeks per year but have not done so regularly as an adult. For my 30th birthday present, my parents took me on a 5 week trip to Morocco. What is interesting, in retrospect, is that even more than the cultural experience of traveling, was the importance of that time with my family. Taking time as an adult to get to know each of my parents, see myself in them, and be grateful for the quality of time spent has been, and continues to be, life changing.

Puerto Rico training

I spent 4 years in my early 20’s studying deep somatic practice with Anat Baniel and another 4 years studying at the Option Institute. While I no longer participate in either organization, I achieved a level of mastery with the tool sets that each of these organizations teach and continue to practice them to this day. On my first day of my first training with Anat Baniel, I told her that someday I would like to teach this material, and now 10 years later, I have done so only minimally.

The Puerto Rico training, which I co-taught with a friend in June of 2017, was my first public offering to teach and further refine the tool sets that I was fortunate enough to be exposed to and truly changed my life throughout my 20s. I am excited to further teach these tools through a variety of mediums in 2018.

Responsive Conference

The 1st annual Responsive Conference was a giant unknown as I had never previously curated and directed an event of that magnitude before. The 2nd Annual Responsive Conference was less of an exploration and more of a refinement. My single biggest goal was to form a cohesive organizing team, and in that I succeeded magnificently. Further, I sought to make intentional the curatorial choices I had begun in 2016 including factors like venue, speakers, and working with speakers to present fresh and relevant content. Across the board, the 2nd Annual Responsive Conference was a triumph. We had 225 people from more than 10 countries and with the help of my production team, the event went off pristinely. I am excited in 2018 to further refine and automate the processes that made the 2nd Annual Responsive Conference a success - aka to do less!

Responsive: What It Takes To Create A Thriving Organization

I have never been able to write as other than a very intentional act, and writing had been one of the primary things I avoided throughout most of 2017. Thus, I am thrilled to have actually published Responsive: What it Takes to Create a Thriving Organization which is a compilation of three years of interviews and curation on the future of work.

Relationships

Finally, and by no means least important, I entered into a new relationship midway through the year. I moved in with my girlfriend in December of 2017. This is far and away, the most significant romantic relationship I have ever had, and it’s no coincidence that we have become collaborators on multiple professional, as well as personal, projects. Relationships of all kinds are perhaps one of the three most important aspects in any of our lives, and I couldn’t be any more pleased with this developing romance.

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How to Run an Un-Conference Organizing events is a community effort, especially events as open to interpretation as an un-conference. I first sat down with a small group interested in Responsive Org events in 2015. Of that initial group Steve Hopkins was a founding member of the Responsive Org movement, Dori Rutkevitz was an active organizer in the related Reinventing Organizations community, and all of us were enthusiastic to learn more. Steve’s initial proposal to organize an un-conference was met with enthusiastic support by everyone at the table, followed promptly by “What’s an Un-conference?”

In the two years following that first meeting, I have produced and directed more than a dozen un-conferences and several more formal events. This short article is the playbook I wish I’d had when I began organizing events.

What is an Un-conference An un-conference is any event where the agenda is set by those who attend. The rules of an un-conference are simple:

Rule #1: Whoever shows up are the right people
Rule #2: Whatever happens is fine
Rule #3: Whenever it starts is the right time
Rule #4: It is over when it’s over

In less flowery language this just means ditch expectation and don’t try to control the experience.

Flow of the Day After attendees arrive, an empty conference agenda is posted on the wall with time slots and a variety of meeting spaces. Leaders share a theme or question they would like to discuss and post it in a time slot. If you post a topic, it is your responsibility to turn up to that session and introduce your topic or question. If you are not hosting a session, you are free to attend whichever of the sessions you are interested in.

Attendees are encouraged to adopt any of a number of roles:

Leader — who is facilitating each breakout
Scribe — is someone responsible for taking notes for each group
Nomads — give attendees permission to move between break-outs

The Law of Two Feet Everyone at an un-conference is encouraged to practice the law of two feet. The law of two feet says that if you become uninterested at any point, you are encouraged to leave and join another session. In an un-conference you are also invited to take breaks at any time, with the idea that it is sometimes in the breaks that the ‘A-ha’ moments arrive.

Roles & Responsibilities There are three main components necessary to a successful event — recruiting, production, and a strong facilitator.

A Word on Recruiting In my experience, it is helpful to have an extended network to help with recruiting, not just a single person. All other logistics can be handled by a single person.

Production Among the organizers, someone has to be in charge of logistics, including:

— Venue sourcing and on-going communication
— Setting the date
— Attendee arrival emails
— Day-of logistics
— Recruiting

Facilitation A strong facilitator can make or break any event, but especially one with as fluid an agenda as an un-conference. Facilitator on the day of the event. It is essential to have one strong facilitator overseeing each un-conference, to welcome attendees and provide context for the event.

How to Facilitate an Un-Conference Here are some tips, most learned the hard way over hundreds of hours of practice in the last two years.

1. Stay Centered Despite having spent a fair amount of time on stage, I found myself getting nervous and feeling rushed in the hours leading up to a day-long un-conference. My single biggest piece of advice for a facilitator is to arrive with plenty of time to spare so you won’t feel rushed. You are responsible for the framework within which the attendee experience takes place. As such, staying grounded and centered is the single most important thing you can provide, even though in the moment it may feel like it is more important to make sure the space is set up or the coffee is ready.

2. Don’t Participate This one might seem odd. It can seem like the entire point of organizing an event is to participate. In my experience, doing so decreases the ease with which I was able to coordinate new sessions, lead an end-of-day wrap-up, and refocus attendees when necessary.

In my view, the facilitator of the un-conference is there in service to the attendees. I have found it gets in the way of the attendee experience to actively participate in sessions and workshops that occur throughout the day.

3. Practice The facilitator should practice before the beginning of the un-conference. Review these guidelines for a successful un-conference and be able to describe un-conference rules from memory. Practice your welcome speech.

4. Incorporate movement I have always found it very useful to incorporate movement into events. When we have short periods of movement interspersed with other kinds of learning, we shortcut the passive sit-and-absorb tendencies we all learned through the education system, and which have carried over into most events. Read this article on the importance of movement within events.

Conclusion Events are a lot of work, and sometime I have learned to produce of necessity. However, in this hyperactive digital age, I’m convinced of the value of what Tony Hsieh calls “spontaneous collisions” — the value of people spontaneously cross paths. If you’re considering putting on an event of your own, I encourage you to do so. When we create a container — an event or gathering — we create the opportunity for emergent possibilities to fill the open space.

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Interested in learning more about the un-conference format or the Responsive movement? Join our Future of Work mailing list or check out my new book Responsive: What It Takes To Create A Thriving Organization, which comes out tomorrow!

*Acknowledge: This un-conference format is derivation of Open Space Technology, founded by Harrison Ownen.

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This episode was recorded in front of a live audience at Robin’s Cafe with Adam Pisoni, co-founder and former CTO at Yammer, co-founder of the Responsive Org movement, and founder and CEO at Abl Schools.

In conversation from stage and then Q&A with the audience, we discussed founding Yammer, the Responsive Org movement, and his efforts at Abl Schools to revitalize the U.S.education system. Exciting possibilities emerge when we reconsider that even behemoth institutions like the U.S. education system can become Responsive!

Adam has implemented a variety of future of work principles at Abl Schools. He has been very open about the challenges of building a diverse founding team at Abl Schools.

While there is a lot of conversation about fostering an inclusive company culture, very few Silicon Valley companies have an equal gender split between male and female employees, and even fewer have women or underrepresented groups at the highest levels of leadership.

We will explore the challenges and lessons learned at Abl Schools, and tactics any founder can apply in the effort to build a Responsive organization.

Show Notes

4:00 Intentions
7:00 Yammer and Conway’s Law
10:00 Starting Responsive Org
11:45 Theory of Responsive
13:30 Challenges of these changes
16:00 Iterate in the shape of your organization
18:00 Adam mentions:

• The Fifth Discipline by Peter Senge
• The Triple Focus by Peter Senge

19:15 Adams transition to education
21:30 Mindsets
24:30 Dropping out of high school
26:30 Education limitations
30:00 Diverse founding teams

Mentions Previous podcast and article “In Defense of Diverse Founding Teams”
36:15 Social emotional skills
40:00 Responsive Org tensions
46:45 Balancing success and time with experimentation
51:30 Egos and fear of failure
53:30 Integrative decision making
57:30 Value of experience
1:01:00 Diversity
1:04:45 Abl’s work in public schools
1:07:30 Measuring impact
1:10:00 Playing with boundaries of leadership and structure
1:15:00 Hiring that focuses on diversity
1:20:00 Purpose of diversity
1:24:30 VC’s reporting on diversity of companies they fund
1:26:15 Robin's Book: Responsive: What It Takes to Create A Thriving Organization

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If you have enjoyed The Robin Zander Show - which just passed 50 episodes! - or benefited from any of the work I've done over the last several years, take a look at my new book Responsive: What It Takes To Create A Thriving Organization. It is out today on Amazon. I'm extremely proud of this book, and it'd mean the world to me if you'd check it out!

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I'm really excited for this interview with Anil Dash, which was recorded in front of a live audience at the 2nd Annual Responsive Conference in September 2017.

Anil Dash is an entrepreneur, activist and writer recognized as one of the most prominent advocates for a more humane, inclusive and ethical tech industry. He is the CEO of Fog Creek Software, an independent New York City tech incubator, which created startups like Trello, Stack Overflow, and Glitch.

Anil has been working to make technology more ethical and humane for a long time. He has been: * On the Internet since before the web. * On social media before that was a phrase. * Blogging since before the word blogging. He's been blogging at AnilDash.com since 1999.

He's very active on Twitter, and is the only Twitter account to have been retweeted by:

• White House
• Prince
• Bill Gates

This interview gets pretty intense very quickly, as we explore how technology companies are not humane or ethical, and what can be done about that.

Anil has served as an advisor to the Obama White House’s Office of Digital Strategy, and today advises major startups and non-profits including Medium and DonorsChoose.

Enjoy!

Show Notes

3:00 Introduction
4:00 Commodore 64
7:30 Anil’s childhood
10:00 Culture and politics
14:00 Anil’s experiences at the airport
18:00 How to show people you are safe
21:00 Self reflection
24:30 Tech industry on race and inclusion
29:30 Implications of misrepresentation in tech
31:00 How tech is disrupting the taxi industry
39:00 Silicon Valley is developing a bad name for tech
46:00 Facebook on diversity and spending money
49:30 CEOs being held accountable for ethics
52:00 Different models for funding technology
56:00 Surveillance from data sets and advertising
1:03:00 Ethics within computer science
1:07:00 Where To From Here?

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If you have enjoyed The Robin Zander Show - which just passed 50 episodes! - or benefited from any of the work I've done over the last several years, take a look at my new book Responsive: What It Takes To Create A Thriving Organization. It is out today on Amazon. I'm extremely proud of this book, and it'd mean the world to me if you'd check it out!

Also, if you are in the San Francisco Bay Area, I'm hosting a free event with Adam Pisoni at Robin's Cafe.

Join us for the conversation and book launch at 7:30pm tonight, Nov. 2, 2017!

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Charles Best (@CharlesBest), is an American philanthropist and entrepreneur,. He is the founder and CEO of DonorsChoose.org, a crowdfunding platform for K-12 teachers in US schools.

Charles launched the organization twelve years ago out of a Bronx public high school where he was taught teaching history at the time. Since then, DonorsChoose.org has become is one of Oprah Winfrey's "ultimate favorite things" and was named by Fast Company among as one of the "50 Most Innovative Companies in the World”," —the first time a charity has received this recognition. For three years, Fortune magazine has also named Charles one of to its "40 under 40 hottest rising stars in business."

I’ve gotten to know Charles over the last year, and every time we dig a bit deeper in conversation, I’m impressed with how systematic he has implemented so many of the practices that we are here to discuss.

Charles Best is the founder and CEO of DonorsChoose.org, a crowdfunding platform for K through 12 teachers serving in US schools. Charles launched the organization in 2000 out of a Bronx public high school where he was teaching history.

DonorsChoose.org was among the first charitable crowd-funding platforms of its kind, creating a marketplace between public school teachers trying to fund projects and citizen donors making contributions.

A few of the company’s many accolades: it has received the highest rating from Charity Watch every year since 2005, has been featured by Oprah as one of her favorite things, and has raised more than $500 Million towards 1 Million Projects.

Show Notes
2:30 Stephen Colbert’s engagement with DonorsChoose.org
7:00 New ways of funding for nonprofits
9:00 Connecting with celebrities
13:00 Core model is the same after 17 years but always experimenting
17:30 Charles’ decision to become a teacher
20:30 Challenges for Charles
22:30 DonorsChoose use of data and transparency
26:30 Founding story of DonorsChoose
31:00 Finding personal connections for donors
34:45 Charles’ and Robin’s passions
37:45 Humility as an organizational core value
41:15 Experiments within the organization
45:00 Charles’ enthusiasm
49:45 Charles’ book suggestions:

Teach Like a Champion by Doug Lemov
Confederacy of Dunces by John Kennedy Toole

Learn More:
DonorsChoose.org

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My guest today is the award-winning author, speaker and small business strategist Pamela Slim (@pamslim).

I first began following Pam’s work with the publication of her first book, Escape from Cubicle Nation, and have watched with enthusiasm as she has transitioned over her career across several very different industries and classes of business.

Her latest, bestselling book, Body of Work, gives a fresh perspective on skills required in the new world of work for people in all work modes, from corporate to nonprofit to small business.

As the founder of K'é in downtown Mesa, Arizona, she now supports small businesses through classes, networking events, and virtual programs.

As the owner of a small cafe in the San Francisco Mission, I was very interested to hear Pam thoughts on why small business is not only necessary but also a great place to build within, with enormous potential.

We discuss a trait that Pam has embodied throughout her career, which I think of as being a lifelong learner or autodidact - and what Pam calls being a multipotentialite.

Pam will be speaking at the 2nd Annual Responsive Conference on Sept. 18-19th 2017 in NYC. I hope you enjoy this interview and hope you’ll consider joining us in Sept.!

Show Notes

03:00 Capoeira

06:30 Lessons learned from Capoeira

09:30 Pam’s move to Mesa, Arizona - Pam mentions the film “Dolores” by Peter Bratt

14:15 Small business is sexy

18:30 Tactical learning

21:30 Work mode

27:30 Different aspects of self

29:30 Pam’s time in college studying in Mexico and Columbia

33:00 Having multiple career choices - Pam mentions How to Be Everything by Emilie Wapnick and her TED Talk

36:00 Body of Work in practice

38:30 Characteristics of Pam’s Incubator

41:00 Building networks

44:00 Growing small, innovative businesses in small, unexpected locations

49:15 New cities becoming hubs

52:00 Enjoying the process

55:00 Pam’s physical practice

57:45 Learn more about Pam:

Pam’s Website

2nd Annual Responsive Conference

58:30 Parting thoughts

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Today’s guest is my friend Jenny Blake (@jenny_blake) an author, career and business strategist and speaker who helps people organize their brain, and build sustainable, dynamic careers. She is the author of PIVOT: The Only Move That Matters is Your Next One and led a workshop at the 1st annual Responsive Conference in September 2016.

Jenny combines her love of technology with her superpower of simplifying complexity to help clients pivot their career or business.

Jenny is brilliant at building simple systems which delegate responsibility and automating decision making. We break down what that means early on in the interview! and she shares a lot of specific personal examples.

We discuss her regular yoga practice, and how a physical routine have helped her build a sustainable career.

Jenny and I also discuss fear, a theme embedded throughout her book PIVOT. We discuss where fear has impacted her business and her personal life, and how she thinks about tackling those.

Whether for an organization or person looking to PIVOT, or just for tactics for simplifying decision making - and life - I hope you enjoy this conversation with Jenny Blake!

Show Notes 02:30 Finding systems 06:15 Explaining systems and delegation 12:15 Jenny’s flow and new book PIVOT: The Only Move That Matters is Your Next One 14:00 Robin’s flow 17:15 Writing 20:00 Jenny’s trends for writing: Toolkit 22:30 Jenny’s family 25:30 Jenny’s desire for teaching and business as a child 28:00 Jenny’s physical practices 29:30 Fear 33:00 Jenny’s relationship 36:00 Fear in physical activities: muay thai and surfing 42:30 Personal responsibility:

Loving What Is by Byron Katie The Seat of the Soul by Gary Zukav

44:30 Jenny’s coaching 47:30 What’s next for Jenny:

Building Pivot

50:30 What’s next for Robin:

2nd Annual Responsive Conference Robin’s Cafe Leadership Retreats

53:00 Find Jenny:

Pivotmethod.com Toolkit - for authors Pivot Podcast

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If you enjoyed this episode with Jenny Blake, I think you will enjoy the 2nd Annual Responsive Conference this September 18-19th in New York City.

Could you do me a favor? If you’ve enjoyed the Robin Zander Show, I would really appreciate a review on iTunes. Reviews help others find the podcast, and more importantly let me know that you’re enjoying what you’re hearing. Thank you!

You can also keep track of the podcast and all of my projects via my newsletter. Just visit RobinPZander.com and click Newsletter.

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Didier Elzinga (@didierelzinga) is the CEO & Founder of Culture Amp - the world's leading Culture Analytics platform.

Didier was previously the CEO of Rising Sun Pictures (a leading Hollywood visual effects company) and founder of Rising Sun Research (winner of a Technical Academy Award). What is particularly interesting is what Didier learned about leadership, building a culture first company, and storytelling in his growth from 6th employee to CEO of Rising Sun.

In this interview we discuss what being a “culture first” company really means, and some of the tactics Didier and Culture Amp have tried. Culture Amp has implemented a “Team of Teams” style of management, which Didier describes. He shares why Culture Amp doesn’t pay its sales people via variable compensation, which goes against standard sales doctrine. Didier was also the first person I heard using the phrase Diversity Debt, which he likens to the more commonly understood Technical Debt discussed throughout the technology industry.

I’ve known Didier for 2 year, and in that time been really impressed both with the company he leads, and his own leadership style - which is thoughtful, experimental, and bold.

Show Notes 3:30 How Didier and his wife met 7:30 Work life blend 12:45 Culture first 16:15 Focusing on the people 17:45 Didier’s time working on Hollywood films 21:30 Doing the work you enjoy 25:00 Going in with your eyes wide open 27:30 The start of Culture Amp 32:00 Didier’s unique value 35:30 Storytelling 40:00 Diversity debt 45:45 Removing sales commission 52:45 Team of teams 56:30 Didier’s suggestions to building a cohesive workforce 59:00 Books mentioned:

Team of Teams by General Stanley McChrystal The Effective Executive by Peter F. Drucker Leadership and Self-Deception by The Arbinger Institute The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell Poems to Make Grown Men Cry by Anthony Holden

1:00:00 Find Culture Amp

Culture Amp’s Website Culture Amp’s Blog

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Megan Poe is a psychiatrist and interpersonal psychoanalyst who teaches one of New York University’s most popular and fastest-growing classes. Her topic? Love! At this year’s Responsive Conference, she’ll explore with us what it takes to live, love, and work well.

In addition to her professorship at NYU, Meg has a private practice in New York City. Meg’s mission is to help people feel most present and alive in their creative flow and inner life. She specializes in helping adults create more-intimate, fulfilling relationships in their lives and work.

In this interview we cover a ton of ground - why Meg’s class at NYC is so popular, the definition of self-love, and how Meg thinks about love both chronologically over a lifetime, and in different roles - mentorship, familial love, romantic love, and more. We discuss Megs background as a doctor, but also her exploration into sound healing and kundalini yoga - and how these influence her work today.

I really enjoyed this wide ranging conversation and can’t wait to see her onstage at the 2nd Annual Responsive Conference. I hope you enjoy today’s interview with Megan Poe.

Show Notes

03:00 Meg’s class on love at NYU

09:30 Collaboration

13:00 Teams and projects that bring people together

16:30 Dream analysis

21:30 Kundalini yoga

24:45 Kundalini rising

28:30 Working with students

33:30 Love that is not regarded as love

37:45 How Meg began looking at love

42:30 Self acceptance

48:00 Expanding our understanding of love

50:30 Lack of self love

52:45 Tools for self love

1:01:30 Mixing science and art

1:06:00 Med school

1:10:00 Find Meg:

Meg’s Website

2nd Annual Response Conference

Books Meg mentions:

Catching the Big Fish: Meditation, Consciousness, and Creativity by David Lynch

The Art of Loving by Erich Fromm

Letters to a Young Poet by Rainer Maria Rilke

The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell

The Artist’s Way Morning Pages Journal by Julia Cameron

If you enjoyed this episode with Jennifer Brown, I think you will enjoy the 2nd Annual Responsive Conference, which will be taking place this September in New York City.

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My guest today, Srini Rao (@unmistakableCEO), is an author and the founder and host of the popular podcast, the Unmistakable Creative, where he's interviewed over five hundred creative people. Former guests on the show include Tim Ferriss, Simon Sinek, and Seth Godin. His first, self-published book The Art of Being Unmistakable got the attention of media personality Glenn Beck, sold over 15,000 copies and hit the "Wall Street Journal” bestseller list.

My conversation with Srini starts and ends with surfing, which we both have a passion for, and forms the outline for his new book Unmistakable. Srini credits surfing with the launch of his podcast and the Unmistakable brand, and using surfing analogies to teach the principles of creating unforgettable work. We discuss behavior change, and how incremental steps add up over time - whether in a physical practice like surfing or in building a brand or business. We discuss the art of the interview, and what Srini has learned about people - and about learning - from conducting over 500 interviews.

I hope you enjoy this interview with my guest, and host of the Unmistakable podcast, Srini Rao.

Show Notes 3:00 Surfing 9:30 Srini’s new book: Unmistakable: Why Only is Better than Best 12:30 Behavioral change through consistency 16:30 Deliberate practice 18:00 The art of the interview 21:00 Curiousity and presence 25:30 Make a podcast entertaining by asking the right questions 31:00 A.J. Leon 33:00 The Compass: A Creator’s Guide to Instigating Something that Matters 34:30 Greg Hartle and The Art of Being Unmistakable: A Collection of Essays About Making a Dent in the Universe 39:30 Glenn Beck 46:00 Misinterpretations 48:00 Habits: The 8-Step Daily Routine That’s Enabled me to Write 100’s of Articles and 3 Books 52:30 Behavior shifts that start from physical movement 55:00 Scary surfing moments 57:00 The challenge of scale 58:00 Books:

The Happiness Advantage by Shawn Anchor The Life and Times of a Remarkable Misfit by A.J. Leon How To Be a Person in the World by Heather Havrilesky The Fear Project by Jaimal Yogis Saltwater Buddha by Jaimal Yogis All Our Waves Are Water by Jaimal Yogis Barbarian Days by William Finnegan The Art of Being Unmistakable: A Collection of Essays About Making a Dent in the Universe by Srini Rao Unmistakable: Why Only is Better than Best by Srini Rao

Find Srini: Unmistakable Creative Website Unmistakable Creative Podcast

Could you do me a favor? If you’ve enjoyed the Robin Zander Show, I would really appreciate a review on iTunes. Reviews help others find the podcast, and more importantly let me know that you’re enjoying what you’re hearing! Thank you!

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My guest today is Jennifer Brown (@jenniferbrown), author of the recently published book “Inclusion.”

Jennifer runs Jennifer Brown Consulting, a global consultancy that working with Fortune 500s to improve their diversity and inclusion initiatives.

Even more than her work in D&I though, I’ve been impressed with Jenn’s enthusiastic immersion in all of the challenges to do with the future work.

Jennifer has been a frequent attendee of many of my Responsive events, and presented at the 1st Annual Responsive Conference in 2016.

This is a wide ranging two-sided conversation about diversity, what makes an effective company, the role of the body at work, and much more.

I hope you enjoy this interview and discussion with my friend Jennifer Brown.

Show Notes 02:00 How Jennifer and Robin met 05:00 Openness without judgement 08:30 Inclusion without self-blame 10:00 Robin’s Responsive Unconference 12:30 Educational systems 14:00 Robin’s background in gymnastics and the circus 18:00 Physicality in life - Reference to Amy Cuddy 21:00 Innovative technology that tunes into bodies and self awareness 26:00 Robin’s Cafe 29:30 Leading with love 32:00 Robin’s work with kids with autism 34:30 Building responsive companies and holacracy 40:00 Risk, privilege, and emergent organizations 44:00 Diversity 48:30 The challenge of time when hiring 53:30 Inclusiveness and gender equality 59:00 Jennifer’s background as a singer 1:02:00 Transitioning into leadership development 1:05:20 Where to find Robin and Jennifer: Jennifer’s book Inclusion: Diversity, The New Workplace & The Will To Change Robin’s 2nd Annual Responsive Conference The Robin Zander Show Podcast Robin’s Website Robin’s Cafe Jennifer’s Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn Jennifer’s Website Jennifer Brown’s Podcast

If you enjoyed this episode with Jennifer Brown, I think you will enjoy the 2nd Annual Responsive Conference, which will be taking place this September in New York City.

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My guest today is former Navy SEAL and New York Times best-selling author Chris Fussell (@fussellchris).

Chris is the co-author of Team of Teams and was a speaker at the 1st Annual Responsive conference in September 2016. I’ve had the pleasure of getting to know Chris over the last year.

Alongside General Stan McChrystal, Chris runs the McChrystal Group - an organizational design consultancy that works with companies all over the world to do in industry what Stan, Chris and the US Military did during the Iraq War. In the book Teams of Teams Stanley McChrystal and Chris outline how they took the special operations branch of the US Military - a stereotypically bureaucratic organization - and transformed it into a adaptive, agile system.

Chris’s new book is called One Mission: How Leaders Build a Team of Teams. In it, he outlines the tactics and tools they used during the Iraq War, and are now teaching in larger organizations. In reading the book, I’ve enjoyed tactics like their multiple-thousand person daily video conference, and the emphasis placed on how to build an underlying narrative throughout an organization of diverse and distributed teams.

In this interview, Chris and I also dig deep into what it meant for him to be a Navy SEAL, his upbringing and family, how he and his wife maintained contacted their relationship while he was deployed overseas, and how he thinks of an emphasis on what he calls "physical readiness" happening in cycles throughout life. Chris and I went pretty personally into a lot of aspects of his life in the service that I’ve always wanted to ask about.

Over the time I’ve known Chris, I’ve been really impressed. He’s unflappable, but also humble. He presents solutions to some of the most complex problems facing organizations today, but also talks candidly about challenge and what is need for transformation - whether a single person changing their mindset, or an entire organization changing their operating system.

I hope you enjoy this interview as much as I did. Here is… Chris Fussell.

Show Notes 3:30 Team of Teams and the military8:30 Navy SEALs11:30 Chris’s upbringing and training14:30 Going through BUD/S16:30 Early experiences as a SEAL19:30 Being humble and good at listening26:00 Chris’s remote relationship33:15 Physical practice39:30 Outlets42:30 Closing down emotion46:30 Transition back to family life50:00 One Mission57:30 Operations and Intelligence Forums