Healing From Emotional Abuse: Recent Episodes
marissafayecohen
I am the founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, that is based on 11+ years of research and real life experience, having gone through it myself, which makes me different from everyone else. I have developed a three key process, that can take anybody who has been through any kind of emotional abuse, and pull them out of that. It’s based on 3 steps, what I call the 3 R’s.
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Previous episode Featuring Garry -- https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healing-from-emotional-abuse-platonic-friendships-with/id1493839857?i=1000570515414
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In this episode, Marissa speaks with Aurora Singh Comedian about her trauma, and how using comedy as a coping mechanism has helped her process her experiences and heal.
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Reference Episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healing-from-emotional-abuse-priest-accused-of-abuse/id1493839857?i=1000602078411
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Johnny Depp vs. Amber Heard
The Johnny Depp vs. Amber Heard duel lawsuit drama has been the talk of the town lately. And rightfully so. First of all, these cases are never black and white. Everything is a he said/she said situation. And a lot of the evidence is going to be controversial because marriages and relationships are emotional. Over the course of a relationship, we do what we have to, to protect our partners. That’s not unreasonable. However, when those same situations, texts, emails, etc. are called into question, they are easy to manipulate to make it look bad for one or both parties.
Quick example, when I was working for the army, I had a coworker who was a colleague and friend. He ended up being crazy and stalking me. But over the course of our friendship, he would send me texts that were extremely inappropriate and I would laugh it off, or water-down my responses because I liked the friendship. In the moment, I was trying to avoid confrontation and not come off crazy or trigger-happy. But when I was trying to prove my case to the commander, later, my responses to his inappropriate passes were looked as encouraging the behavior. These situations are never clear, and that’s the main problem with these hearings and lawsuits. We’re digging up history out of context.
However, I will say, from all the videos and research I’ve done, I am team Johnny Depp. Johnny Depp grew up in an abusive household, where his mother was emotionally and verbally abusive. This is relevant because it normalizes abusive behavior in future relationships. It’s natural to seek out partners who emulate or mirror the behavior you were exposed to as a child.
When Amber Heard’s Op-Ed originally came out, Depp was taken off of 3 major projects, totaling a loss of $55million, with no prior reports or arrests. Now, I am in support of that. We should normalize companies and projects letting people go for being abusive to their partners. Especially people who have platforms. However, Heard, who had previous arrests due to domestic violence from previous relationships has not lost any work. In 2009, Amber Heard was arrested by the Port of Seattle Police after she and her ex-girlfriend Tasya got into an argument at the Seattle-Tacoma International airport.
Heard was taken into custody and booked for misdemeanor domestic violence after she allegedly grabbed and struck Tasya.
The actress' case was assigned to King County District Court in Seattle, a day after the incident. However, prosecutor declined to press charges against Heard.
Meanwhile, Depp’s exes, Winona Ryder and Vanessa Paradis both provided statements in Depp's defense.
Ryder wrote: "The idea that he is an incredibly violent person is the farthest thing from the Johnny I knew and loved. I cannot wrap my head around these accusations."
Meanwhile, Paradis wrote that Heard's accusations are "nothing like the true Johnny I have known, and from my personal experience of many years, I can say he was never violent or abusive to me."
It was clear in her lawsuit against Depp that the videos and audio she provided were biased. There was one in particular that I saw that really upset me. The day after Depp’s mother died, Heard began recording. She walked into the kitchen, put the phone down secretly in the corner of the room, and provoked an argument with him. He was probably drunk, and was looking for something franticly in the cabinets. He started slamming the cabinets out of frustration, having nothing to do with her. She then provoked him. She picked a fight and started pointing out on camera all the things he was doing, and instigated with him. He was leaving her alone until he saw the phone, at which point he took it and dropped it in the garbage can. She then proceeded to yell at him, start an argument and vein victimhood, even though he wasn’t responding to her or even raising his voice.
In January, phone recordings were released. In these recordings, Heard admitted to "hitting" Depp.
Heard is heard saying: "I'm sorry that I didn't ... hit you across the face in a proper slap, but I was hitting you, it was not punching you. Babe, you're not punched.
"I don't know what the motion of my actual hand was, but you're fine, I did not hurt you, I did not punch you, I was hitting you."
Meanwhile, Depp said in the recording: "I left last night. Honestly, I swear to you because I just couldn't take the idea of more physicality, more physical abuse on each other.
"Because had we continued it, it would have gotten f---ing bad. And baby, I told you this once. I'm scared to death we are a f---ing crime scene right now," Depp continued.
Heard replied: "I can't promise you I won't get physical again. God, I f---ing sometimes get so mad I lose it."
Heard planted fake evidence, including faking having to cover up injuries she said were sustained by Depp with makeup. The makeup company came out and said that pallet hadn’t been sold for two years after she claimed to have used it. She also used nail polish on the blade of a knife, and claimed that it was her blood and Depp tried to kill her.
In August 2014, Depp claimed Heard withheld recovery medication during his time in recovery and branded it "one of the cruelest things" she had ever done.
These manipulation tactics are very commonly used by female narcissists and abusers to make it look like they are the victim. Its all about control
When she was interviewed by a mental health expert, who specializes in PTSD, she was interviewed regarding the triggers and symptoms. Of the 20 symptoms listed, Heard claimed to have 19 of them. In the most severe and debilitating PTSD diagnoses, survivors will only exhibit about 3 or 4 of these symptoms. She was caught exaggerating her symptoms. Then, the psychologist, using the same metrics, was able to diagnose Heard with both Borderline Personality Disorder and Histrionic Personality Disorder. borderline personality disorder causes 'instability' in relationships and emotions, with a driving factor being Heard's 'underlying terror of abandonment.'
"When somebody is afraid of being abandoned by their partner or by anybody else in their environment, and they have this disorder, they'll make desperate attempts to prevent that from happening," Curry told the court.
The expert added that borderline personality disorder was 'a predictive factor for women who implement violence against their partner.'
On the stand Wednesday, Depp said that Heard was the real abuser in their relationship and the change in their relationship started with her making "little digs" and "demeaning name-calling."
Depp said he felt like he was "suddenly wrong" about everything, and suffered an "endless parade of insults."
The actor added that sometimes these arguments would escalate to violence, with Heard — who he said "has a need for violence" — shoving him or throwing a glass of wine in his face. When these arguments would start, Depp said he would try to extricate himself from the situation, sometimes locking himself in the bathroom just to get away from Heard.
Depp also said his relationship with Heard — as well as what he described as her frequent verbal attacks — often contributed to his use of alcohol and drugs.
"I was more inspired by Miss Heard to reach out for a numbing agent because of the constant clashes," he said. "I had to have something to distance me and distance my heart from those verbal attacks."
People who are not experts in this field have been coming out and reporting this as “mutual abuse, including Heard and Depp’s marriage therapist. Ruth Glenn, President and CEO of the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence says, “Mental issues may be contributing as a risk factor, but when you’re talking about abuse, then you talk to experts in that abuse. The absence of domestic violence experts at this trial denies the public an opportunity to better understand these important disctinction.” I have a concern about the term mutual abuse people keep using to describe this relationship. My problem is, the definition of an abusive relationship is the imbalance of power and control between the two partners. For there to be “mutual abuse” there would be no imbalance. It is clear to me, as a person who has not had any in-person exposure to either of these people, that there is a distinct imbalance of power. All of the questionable altercations that Heard has alleged of Depp seemed to have been during a time while he was under the influence, and nobody can corroborate her story. Now, I’m not saying that this never happens. A lot of abuse happens while the abuser is under the influence. However, in this case, from the video and audio evidence, it seems to me that she would wait until he was drunk or high and provoke an argument, or instigate an altercation, whether it ended in one or not.
It is also my opinion that false reports of domestic violence and sexual assault, or really anything, are criminal. People who make false reports, about 2-8% of reports are false in any crime, including DV/SA, should be tried for obstruction of justice. All Amber Heard and other false reporters are doing is making reporting actual abuse more difficult for people who are actually suffering. It gives society reason to doubt the validity of another situation of abuse. And people will hang on to it and use it as a metric for other false reports. It does a huge disservice to survivors, and the community.
There’s a post going around on social media that I’d really like to read. It made a lot of excellent, summary points.
So throughout the past week during the Depp/Heard trial we have learned:
- Women can verbally assault men in front of everyone and it's perfectly fine.
- A woman can relieve herself on a man's pillow and laugh with her friends about it and that's fine
- A woman can cut off a man's finger tip in a heated argument and no one bats an eye
- A woman can demand money in a civil setting and claim its for donation purposes and keep it and all is right with the world.
- A woman can gas light a man into believing horrible things about himself that are not true
- A woman can smirk and laugh during court proceedings while a man is forced to relive horrible experiences
- A woman can talk poorly about a man's kids
- A woman can put make up and finger nail polish on her and the law will pass it off as bruises and blood
- A man can be trauma bonded into submission
- A man can love hard and be fearful of failure and force himself to stay
- A man can battle addictions but like everyone else, cannot do it alone.
- A man can lose his career over allegations but a woman with the same keeps her job.
- A man is not allowed to defend himself in court without harassment
- A man is not allowed to have a fair trial because the judge backs the woman
- A man is judged because he worries how the accusations will affect his children, family, etc.
- A MAN CAN BE A VICTIM OF ABUSE AND DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.
I stand with Johnny Depp.
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Intro:
Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
This episode of Healing From Emotional Abuse is brought to you by the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy. Have you ever wondered why you keep falling for the same type of person? Wondering when it’s going to be your turn to have control of your life? Now is the time! The Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy: The 3 Keys to Overcoming Narcissism is an easy to follow program where I show you how to Release your trauma in a safe and healthy way, build Resilience - confidence, self-esteem, self love, and self-worth, and then rebuild your environment. Surround yourself with healthy people and energy. Your life is yours, and the decisions you make should reflect the people in your life who deserve to be there. People who treat you with kindness and respect. Who value you and show you that you are worthy of love everyday. Friends who love and support you, and are positive and inspirational. And a partner who encourages you to achieve your goals and think bigger than you’ve ever thought before.
Following my three-step system will change your life. I fell into the cycle of abuse, dating narcissist after narcissist, each one of them taking a piece of me with them. And I struggled to know who I was or who I could trust for a long time. But I learned all the right steps to take, and want to help everyone else who is struggling like I did to do the same. I don’t want to lose any more survivors to suicide, addiction, or self-harm. There’s help out there.
So, I’m offering my book, the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy: The 3 Keys to Overcoming Narcissism for free. Scan the QR code in the show notes to get your free copy of my bestselling book, filled with exercises and activities to help you overcome your trauma. In addition to my book, I’m also offering a free coaching session where we’ll put together a healing plan specifically for you. Make an appointment with me at ScheduleACallWithMarissa.com. That’s Schedule a Cal with Marissa . com. It’s time to take your life back and live with confidence, freedom and peace.
Love is blind season 2
Hello and welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse with me, Marissa F. Cohen. I’m really excited to chat about our topic today because it’s a thorn in my side. Last week, I made a post on my personal facebook page about the show love is blind, and how after the second episode, Shayne’s behavior was so incredibly emotionally abusive that I couldn’t handle it. The post received a lot of attention and feedback from other people who have watched it, and it was pretty split between people in support and opposed to my personal interpretations and perceptions of the various quote characters. Then, after finishing the season, I made a second post. In it, I wrote:
So, back to #loveisblind. First of all, none of these relationships were healthy. Actually, in my presentations about toxic relationships for colleges and high schools, these couples covered ALL of my red flags -- thanks for making my job easier Netflix. Examples of Red Flags and Toxic Behavior ALL OVER THE DAMN PLACE. Mallory, Shake, Jarrette, Shayne, Danielle (don't get me started on her...), Deepti, Shaina, all of them. The only semi-healthy people were Nick and Sal.
Second of all, my opinion of Shayne is unchanged. He is a manipulative, gaslighting fool, who is a perfect example of a narcissist. He took every situation that Natalie addressed issues with and immediately turned them on her. No accountability, no fault of his own. Always her and something she did.
I can break down all the couples (or at least what we see of them) and identify all the toxic nonsense that is glamorized on this ridiculous show, but I won't bore you with that.
What do you think?
What I didn’t expect was people actually wanting me to break down the people and relationships, and an overwhelming number of people asked. So, here we are.
Have you watched Love Is Blind Season 2? If you have, and you’ve experienced an abusive relationship, there is a chance that you felt triggered or uneasy with a lot of the content throughout the episodes. If you have not seen love is blind, just letting you know, spoiler alert. I’m not holding back, because this season gave me a big, unrelenting headache.
I want to start from the beginning with you. Just a heads up, I’m not a huge fan of reality dating shows for a few reasons. 1 they edit them to create narratives that might not have actually existed. 2. There are a team of producers behind the scenes negging and causing drama to make for quote good television. And 3. I just don’t really enjoy them. They’re not my personal taste.
But I have to say, this season made my job of speaking at high schools and colleges about healthy and unhealthy relationships really easy. Want to see an unhealthy relationship? Want to see 6? Turn on Love is Blind. It’s awful.
So, where to begin? I guess the low hanging fruit here is Shania. Shaina is a manipulative, gross character who uses people to get what she wants. She’s selfish, self involved, and after they leave the pods and have the mixer on the beach, she manipulates and gaslights Shayne, which is a nice change of pace, because he spent the first several episodes manipulating and gaslighting Natalie. So healthy. Shaina was like a fly buzzing around your house. She would disappear and reappear when it was convenient. Personally, I think they kept her in to try and neg people and start drama, but nobody cared about her so they dropped her. Thank god, because any more airtime of her and I would have driven into the city and slapped her myself. She's a trainwreck. but when they cut her from the show and stopped giving her airtime, that was probably the first and only decision that was made that I agreed with. She was truly a narcissist. Here are the list of narcissistic traits and tendencies that she exhibited in her short time on the show that therapists use to diagnose someone with narcissistic personality disorder:
Deceitful - when she said yes to Kyle while knowing full-well that she wasn’t going to go through with it. And using her religion as a crutch to continuously pick fights, to eventually end the engagement.
Controlling and Manipulative - when she tried to manipulate Shayne into leaving Natalie. In pretty much every in-person conversation with Kyle. At the beach with everyone she interacted with. In the house with her family. In pretty much any and all on-screen situations where she opened her mouth. In the pods when she knew that Shayne was going to propose to Natalie and she had already said yes to Kyle.
Jealous - Jealous of Natalie for getting engaged to Shayne. Jealous of their relationship and trying to sabotage it on the beach.
Self Absorbed - Evident in pretty much all of her behavior.
Egocentric - In her feeling of superiority to the other girls, especially Natalie.
But I’ve spent enough time talking about her… more time than she deserves. So let’s move on.
Since we’re on the topic of narcissists and emotional abuse, let’s talk Shayne. Shayne has had an interesting presence on social media, meaning that he has been slammed from all corners of the country, identifying his narcissistic and manipulative behavior. There were entire posts identifying all the emotional abuse spewing from his mouth, and validating people who were triggered by his words and his behavior.
It all started in the pods. In the first episode, Shayne went into the pod and was expecting a date with Shaina, even said she was who he was hoping for. But instead, it was Natalie. When he started off the conversation asking what she was wearing, and Natalie got offended, recognizing that the comment was meant for someone else, she vocalized her concerns. Point Natalie, for healthy communication. Shayne immediately backtracked and turned the blame onto Natalie, telling her that if she thought he was a dick, that’s weird and blamed her. He then proceeded to use the fact that she’s talking to other people as well as a reason that he is faultless for hurting her feelings. She didn’t say a word yet, and he was already telling her that it’s not his fault her feelings got hurt. Then, when she tried to explain that she felt led on, he cut her off and minimized what she was feeling, rationalized and justified his behavior, and shut her down every time she tried to foster some form of conversation. It was difficult to watch without throwing the remote at the wall.
And this wasn’t the last time he gaslit her, or manipulated her. The night before their wedding, they had a huge fight he told her that he hated her and she was the worst thing that ever happened to him. At the alter, she said no because she couldn’t get past what he had said. Then, after they left the ceremony, you see them talking outside an entryway. She was trying to address what he had said, and first, he acknowledged that he meant what he said. Then, when she asked for clarification, he backtracked and tried to manipulate her and the conversation. He called her crazy, and twisted the situation to make it look like she misunderstood. He refused to give a straight answer, and instead, became extremely emotional, and played victim. Bottom line, he’s an awful person. I could do an entire episode analyzing his behavior and explaining how he is emotionally abusive. But truly, he’s not worth the energy.
Let’s play the same game that we played with Shaina. How many criteria does Shayne fit using the qualities therapists use to identify Narcissistic Personality Disorder?
Hostile and Defensive — when addressed about issues.
Blames Others — also known as gaslighting. Misdirecting the situation so the other person is always at fault.
Deceitful, Controlling and Manipulative — anytime he feels trapped or blamed.
Sensitive, Self Absorbed, egocentric, emotionally unstable and overly emotional — prone to emotional meltdowns when he feels trapped or blamed, eccentric behavior, attention deficiency.
With all of that in mind, the only three criteria for narcissistic personality disorder that we missed, and I truly believe it’s because we don’t get the full picture in reality tv, are relationship problems, isolating himself — not having a social circle or many friends of his own, and being suspicious and distrustful of others. But I’d be willing to bet that if we saw everything the cameras caught, these three characteristics would be in there.
That being said, I can comfortably say, with confidence that Shayne is a Narcissist and can be classified as having Narcissistic Personality Disorder…
On the other side of the spectrum is Danielle. Precious Danielle. Talk about a person who needs some serious self love and also therapy. I’m hopeful that she’s not really as unhinged in real life, and that the producers just saw her as an easy target and messed with her.
As far as actual narcissists go, I personally feel that Shayne and Shaina are the only two truly toxic people deep in their souls. But that doesn’t mean that all the other relationships weren’t also toxic. So let’s dive into the couples.
Starting with Shaina and Kyle. Kyle didn’t have a chance from the beginning. The producers were clearly trying to recreate the Jess/Mark situation from season one. Shaina, who presents as a very vain person from the beginning, reluctantly said yes to Kyles proposal, then after meeting him, didn’t give him a chance. She blew him off in Mexico, refused to try and then proceeds to pursue Shayne, even though he has a fiancee. She mistreated Kyle, ignored him, refused to communicate with him in any way, and didn’t take him seriously. The poor guy tried. He even went as far as to offer giving Christianity a chance in an effort to support her, which is spiritual abuse. But her mind was made up from the beginning. She used him as a way to have the opportunity to interact with Shayne. And to be honest, I personally wish they ended up together. Let those two out narcissist each other.
Next, let’s evaluate Sal and Mallory. This one was a doooooozy. There’s a lot of controversy around this couple, especially in my house. Please, comment and resolve a disagreement for me. My husband and I cannot agree. If Sal didn’t say No first, do you think Mallory would have said Yes?
Anyways, Mallory made it abundantly clear that she was not physically attracted to Sal. And Sal, beautiful, sweet, romantic man. Mallory continued to not communicate in any way, undermined and minimized every grand romantic gesture he did, from singing and playing the ukulele, to planning nice dinners, all of which she stated she wanted, and she refused to even give him credit. Her response to everything was, “that’s cute” or “you’re cute.” No thank you, no reciprocated actions. Even if you don’t love someone, or you’re not attracted to them, you treat them with respect. Show some gratitude for a person who is doing nice things for you. At the very basis of every healthy relationship, whether it’s romantic or platonic, you have to show respect and gratitude. And communication is key. Sal was understanding, patient, kind, supportive, loving and respectful. He gave her her space, but also recognized that she wanted to be wooed. But she never really acknowledged the effort he put in.
If something doesn’t feel right, or is making you unhappy or uncomfortable, communicate it. That’s the only way issues are resolved. But her lack of communication and respect towards him is the main reason why that relationship was toxic. It seemed like every episode, Sal was trying to make Mallory happy, and every episode, she was still unhappy with him, but wouldn’t contribute to the relationship at all. He may as well have been dating a car. At least a car tells you when there’s a problem…
Deepti and Shake are next on my list. First of all, Shake from the get go was a superficial jerk. Asking the women if he would be able to lift them… I don't know, how much do you squat bro? What an embarrassing way to present yourself to people. Let’s go onto a show that’s all about emotional connection and lead with questions about what size clothing the women wear? Seriously? I’m not gonna lie, at first, I pitied the person who ended up with him. What surprised me was, even though he was a self-indulgent, non communicative, toxic person, I found myself feeling bad for him for a minute. There was a short period of time, and by short I mean maybe two episodes, where Deepti became very codependent, and was uncomfortably clingy. I still didn’t like him, but I didn’t like her more. Their relationship made me feel uneasy because it was clear that her heart was in it, and it was clear that his wasn’t. He continuously told everyone around him that he wasn’t physically attracted to her, but wouldn’t be honest that he wasn’t interested to her. He continued to lie directly to her about how he felt and his intentions. And even though he knew he wasn’t going to say yes, and we knew he wasn’t going to say yes, he continued to lead her on. When she said no, which I was very VERY proud of her for, he tried to pull off a sad look, but his eyes were beyond relieved. If you’re that unhappy that being left at the alter feels like blessing, you’re probably not in the right relationship.
Iyana an Jarrette were probably the healthiest of all the relationships, however, communication was an issue, and maturity was a big issue. He is a partier, and she isn’t. And when that was bought to his attention, he dismissed her and it was never brought up again. At least not on camera. And her relationship to him felt more like watching a school girls crush on the teacher. It was creepy how almost obsessed she was with him. It was starting to border on codependence, and that’s toxic. I believe they loved each other, even though it was apparent that Iyanna was not his first choice, which boggled my mind that she rationalized it and still said yes. Then, you could tell she felt incredibly threatened, and overcompensated by clinging to him, which pushed him away more. But when they finally got their bearings, which I imagine happened off camera, they seemed a little better. In my opinion, I thought he was going to say no. It just seemed like he was half in it, waiting for the moment he could call it off, like Shake. But to my surprise, they both said yes. And if it’s working for them, and they’re forcing each other to grow, while supporting each other and communicating in a healthy way, then more power to them. I wish them the best. But if those qualifiers aren’t being met, it’s not a healthy relationship.
Now, it’s a toss up. Which relationship was actually more toxic? Shayne and Natalie, or Danielle and Nick? In my opinion, Shayne was way more toxic than Danielle, so let’s dissect Danielle and Nick next.
Danielle and Nick looked like they were going to be the Lauren and Cameron of Season 2, but alas, they threw a curveball at us. Nick was supportive, respectful, communicative and kind. He tried to level with Danielle when she was having her panic attacks, and tried to support her through it. Danielle showed jealousy, emotional instability, distrust and suspicion, and emotional outbursts. I feel confident suggesting that she has low self-esteem, although anyone with eyes and ears could see that coming from about 30 miles away. Danielle’s jealousy after the beach mixer, simply because other women were there was unexpected. And it just got worse from there. Every time there was an interaction that wasn’t 100% perfect, she would spiral, and pick a fight. I don’t know if that’s a coping mechanism she picked up to push people away as a means of self-preservation, or if that’s just a response from someone who is extremely insecure and projecting that onto him. Either way, toxic. Her consistently picking fights as a means of holding his attention, and also as a horrible way to communicate is extremely unhealthy. That relationship is unbalanced and unequal. If she doesn’t seek out resources like confidence coaching or therapy, I hypothesize they will not last long. Both parties need to be healthy and capable of communicating in order to maintain a healthy relationship.
Relationships aren’t easy. They are difficult and they require work. People are three dimensional and have emotional and physical needs. If those needs aren’t being met, then the relationship is unbalanced.
And finally, the moment I’m sure we’ve all been waiting for. Here are 300 ways Shayne and Natalie are toxic. Just kidding… Aside from what has already been mentioned, the same way Nick and Danielle were unbalanced, Shayne and Natalie were, too. It’s true, they had some good times, and for a minute in the middle of the season, it started to look promising. Natalie was supportive and loving, respectful and … you guessed it, communicative. Whenever there was an issue, she took a moment, and addressed it. The problem was, every time there was an issue, Shayne immediately took the defensive, played the victim, and gaslit Natalie. There was never a moment where there was healthy and honest communication back and forth. One side healthy, the other side toxic.
Bottom line, All of this could have been avoided if they had just … wait for it… communicated with each other. The very basis of this show is communication, and every single couple failed at it. It’s really disappointing, because we glamorize these horrendous and toxic relationships, and paint it as love. This is the opposite of healthy love and it needs to be addressed. These couples and these interactions and behaviors are the opposite of what to look for in relationships. And the problem is, we as people absorb so much of what we expect in relationships from movies and television. My hope is that everyone who watched this, saw these red flags and thought, “Oof, that’s not good.” But I doubt it, because the same people watch the show YOU and romanticize Dan’s stalking as flattering.
The keys to a healthy relationship are support, respect, communication and honesty/trust. If you’re in a relationship and any of these pieces are missing, I urge you to acknowledge, possibly try to fix it, or leave. Any relationship missing any one of these key elements is not healthy. If you don’t feel supported, respected, validated and safe, then you’re not in the right relationship. I’m sorry for being so blunt, but if we’re going to glorify unhealthy relationships on TV and learn to expect that we’re going to be treated that way, then my goal is to be louder and more straight forward. Everyone deserves healthy and fulfilling love. So set your standards and don’t let anyone make you question yourself.
Thank you so much for tuning in and listening to the Healing From Emotional Abuse Podcast, today. Before you go, it’s important that you know that what you’re feeling is normal. Everyone responds differently to trauma, narcissism, and abuse. Our brains go into survival mode to protect us from harm. But I want to make sure you know, you’re not alone. I’m here, and I want to brainstorm ways that I can help ease your healing journey. Imagine you’re standing on a cliff. And on the other side of a deep canyon is the life that you dream of. A partner who connects with you, supports and empowers you, and makes you laugh and smile. A life filled with freedom, confidence and peace. I have been where you are now. Standing on the edge, dreaming of that life. And I’ve built the bridge between where you are now, and that dream that seems so far away. Let me walk you across the bridge, and literally hand you the life of your dreams. It’s possible. I’ve walked this path with thousands of survivors, who live free, confident and peaceful lives. Let’s walk this path together. Don’t waste anymore time feeling lonely, worthless or exhausted. Schedule a call with me today at scheduleacallwithmarissa.com.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
This episode of Healing From Emotional Abuse is brought to you by the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy. Have you ever wondered why you keep falling for the same type of person? Wondering when it’s going to be your turn to have control of your life? Now is the time! The Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy: The 3 Keys to Overcoming Narcissism is an easy to follow program where I show you how to Release your trauma in a safe and healthy way, build Resilience - confidence, self-esteem, self love, and self-worth, and then rebuild your environment. Surround yourself with healthy people and energy. Your life is yours, and the decisions you make should reflect the people in your life who deserve to be there. People who treat you with kindness and respect. Who value you and show you that you are worthy of love everyday. Friends who love and support you, and are positive and inspirational. And a partner who encourages you to achieve your goals and think bigger than you’ve ever thought before.
Following my three-step system will change your life. I fell into the cycle of abuse, dating narcissist after narcissist, each one of them taking a piece of me with them. And I struggled to know who I was or who I could trust for a long time. But I learned all the right steps to take, and want to help everyone else who is struggling like I did to do the same. I don’t want to lose any more survivors to suicide, addiction, or self-harm. There’s help out there.
So, I’m offering my book, the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy: The 3 Keys to Overcoming Narcissism for free. Scan the QR code in the show notes to get your free copy of my bestselling book, filled with exercises and activities to help you overcome your trauma. In addition to my book, I’m also offering a free coaching session where we’ll put together a healing plan specifically for you. Make an appointment with me at ScheduleACallWithMarissa.com. That’s Schedule a Cal with Marissa . com. It’s time to take your life back and live with confidence, freedom and peace.
Thank you so much for tuning in and listening to the Healing From Emotional Abuse Podcast, today. Before you go, it’s important that you know that what you’re feeling is normal. Everyone responds differently to trauma, narcissism, and abuse. Our brains go into survival mode to protect us from harm. But I want to make sure you know, you’re not alone. I’m here, and I want to brainstorm ways that I can help ease your healing journey. Imagine you’re standing on a cliff. And on the other side of a deep canyon is the life that you dream of. A partner who connects with you, supports and empowers you, and makes you laugh and smile. A life filled with freedom, confidence and peace. I have been where you are now. Standing on the edge, dreaming of that life. And I’ve built the bridge between where you are now, and that dream that seems so far away. Let me walk you across the bridge, and literally hand you the life of your dreams. It’s possible. I’ve walked this path with thousands of survivors, who live free, confident and peaceful lives. Let’s walk this path together. Don’t waste anymore time feeling lonely, worthless or exhausted. Schedule a call with me today at scheduleacallwithmarissa.com.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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It’s no secret that Kanye West has mental health issues. As a diagnosed bipolar with Narcissistic Personality Disorder or NPD, his mental health and episodes are periodically highlighted across news channels and tabloids alike. However, over the last few days, Kanye’s mental health issues have escalated to verbally and emotionally abusive tendencies, aimed towards Kim Kardashian, his estranged wife, and her new boyfriend, comedian and SNL writer and cast member Pete Davison.
Kanye has been threatening Pete with intimidation and calls for violence. He has been harassing and threatening Kim and his children, and creating a very hostile and dangerous environment for all of them by encouraging his followers to scream at Pete Davidson if they see him in public.
“IF ANYONE LOVES ME AND MY FAMILY IF YOU SEE SKETE IN REAL LIFE SCREAM AT THE [LOSER] AT THE TOP OF YOUR LUNGS AND SAY KIMYE FOREVER,”
A little bit of background. And know, that I don’t generally follow pop culture as this is really not my interest. I’m more concerned with Kanye’s abusive behavior, but I feel some background is necessary to fully understand how sick and toxic he is. Kim filed for divorce in February 2021 citing irreconcilable differences. From then until the news broke that she and Pete were seeing each other, everything was fine. After the Pete and Kim relationship was public, Kanye began trying to reconcile their marriage, to which Kim adamantly rejected, and filed to be declared legally single. Kanye, who still a year later has not signed the divorce papers, refuses to accept the divorce, and has said he never saw the papers. He also bought the house across the street from Kim and his children to be able to keep an eye on them.
In January 2022, Kanye released a new track where he said, “God saved me from this crash, just so I can beat Pete Davidson’s ass.” That call to action sparked outrage from his followers and fans. And began what would be a very dangerous situation for Pete.
But everything erupted last weekend when Kanye really unleashed. First, he told his fans that Kid Cudi, a friend and long time collaborator, would not be featured on his new album because he was friends with quote you know who. He refers to him by the nickname Skete, which is used to demean Pete, and has publicly called him a dickhead, garbage and trash. He has posted threats of physical violence on his instagram, stating, “UPON MY WIFE’S REQUEST PLEASE NOBODY DO ANYTHING PHYSICAL TO SKETE.” And then implying that he will “handle the situations” himself as the caption to a picture from the 2001 movie Baby Boy where one man is holding the other in a chokehold.
As you can probably imagine, it’s fear-inducing to have strangers screaming at you in public, and someone threatening to “handle the situation” by implying they’re going to physically assault you, but it’s also abusive. For Kanye to be encouraging this threatening behavior is comparable to abusing someone. He is creating a very dangerous situation in which Pete could be harmed.
Abuse is a pattern of threats or violence towards someone in order to control and manipulate them. And that is exactly what this is. And in the crossfires, he is intimidating and endangering his estranged wife and children. By living across the street to watch them, and sending threatening, harassing and abusive text messages to Kim, he is sending a message that he is in control of the situation, and won’t rest until he wins.
If that doesn’t make you physically uncomfortable, I don’t know what will. He has posted private text messages to social media between him and Kim and he and Pete trying to intimidate them. He is love bombing Kim with flowers and grand romantic gestures after she has verbalized repeatedly that she is not interested in getting back together with him. This blatant disrespect of her wishes is also a form of abuse. Love bombing is a manipulative dating practice where a narcissist uses grand romantic gestures to gain the upper hand in a relationship and control their partner. They shower the person with love and attention, compliments, gifts, flattery. It looks romantic on the outside, but it’s really a way for the narcissist to manipulate the environment, to make them look like the perfect partner. It’s also a way to lure the person away from other friends, family or potential romantic interests and control their patterns and their environment.
Are we seeing a pattern here?
So, let me just check off some boxes.
If abuse is a pattern of threatening and violent behavior (physical, emotional, verbal, etc.) here is a laundry list of the abusive behaviors Kanye has exhibited in the last 5 days:
- Inciting violence against Pete Davidson by encouraging fans to scream in his face. Intimidation and Manipulation.
- Threatening to “handle the situation” with violence. Intimidation and psychological abuse.
- Moving across the street from kim and his kids. Intimidation, and psychological abuse. Imagine feeling watched all the time and trying to live your life normally. It doesn’t work.
- Love bombing Kim.
- Name calling. Verbal Abuse
- Referring to him as “Skete” instead of using his name is actually a form of verbal and sexual abuse.
- Harassing Kim and Pete via social media and text messages.
As survivors of abuse, you are justified in feeling triggered or uncomfortable hearing about and reading about his behavior. All of these behaviors are extremely toxic to Kim and Pete, and the well-fare of his children. They are all feeling overwhelmed, intimidated and scared. Although a lot of his fans are looking at what he’s doing as entertainment or justified, a lot of people are speaking out against his behaviors. Here are some tweets calling Kanye’s behavior out, and I couldn’t agree more.
“What Kanye is doing to Kim is harassment and public humiliation. The worst part is that it's happening in front of the world and people are watching it like entertainment.”
“I think many survivors will agree this [is] far from funny or entertaining. This is the escalating point to something majorly violent, Please stop encouraging Kanye. To my survivors, please detox from this if needed. This is triggering shit.”
“None of this shit is funny, as someone who deals with this, I can say it's scary, and stressful, I have sympathy for her … It's a tough choice leaving, but I'm happy she did.”
“This is terrifying for a woman. He’s threatening violence and demanding her back. This is not okay, any woman who has been in this situation and feared for her life doesn’t think it’s funny, it’s triggering and terrifying.”
“When she directly addresses him about how he’s making her feel unsafe he decides to post a screenshot and ridicule her concerns but people want to keep defending him,”
What Kim is going through is textbook harassment. It’s terrifying how he’ll dress it up as wanting to be a present father but goes on to bombard her with gifts and affection.
The way I see it, if these are behaviors he is exhibiting publicly, think of all the toxic stuff he put her through privately. Kanye is unhinged. He is abusive, manipulative and sick. His toxic behaviors need to be reprimanded because he is endangering the lives of 6 people publicly, and also is using his platform to control them. In my opinion, Kanye should be held responsible for his actions, medicated or not, because abuse is never okay. And refusing to take care of his mental health is not an excuse. His behavior landed him in this situation. Kim filed for divorce because of his toxic behaviors, and by harassing her, her children, her boyfriend and threatening and inciting violence, he is only making the situation more dangerous and toxic.
If you are experiencing similar behaviors from a friend or partner, please reach out for help. You don’t deserve to live in an environment where you are constantly in fear for your life or your mental health. You deserve to feel safe, secure, happy and peaceful in a relationship.
If you or someone you know is struggling, make a free coaching appointment with me at scheduleacallwithmarissa.com, and I’m happy to give you some resources to help you through your triggers.
Thank you so much for joining me today, and I’ll talk to you next week!
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Overcoming narcissism and healing from emotional abuse are so important to your mental health and to living a life of freedom, confidence and peace. Today, we're going to be talking to Carrie Miller about red flags, narcissistic relationships, NLP and a bunch of other really exciting other stuff. But before we start, I want to brainstorm ways that I can help ease your healing journey. Imagine you're standing on a cliff and on the other side of a deep canyon is the life that you dream of a partner who connects with you, supports you loves you empowers you makes you laugh makes you smile, a life filled with freedom and confidence and peace and unwavering happiness. I've been where you are now, standing on the edge of the cliff dreaming of that life. And I've built the bridge between where you are now. And that dream life that seems so far away. Let me walk you across that bridge and literally hand you the life of your dreams. It's possible. I've walked this path with 1000s of survivors who live a free, confident and peaceful life now, let's walk this path together. Don't waste any more time feeling worthless or exhausted. Schedule a free call with me today. At schedule a call with Marissa. It's exactly how it sounds. schedule a call with marissa.com.
Welcome back to healing from emotional abuse. Today I have on Carrie Miller. Carrie Miller is a licensed massage therapist and a trained NLP Neuro Linguistic Programming practitioner which is awesome. who specializes in helping women find themselves after narcissistic relationships. As a survivor herself. She was trapped in narcissistic toxic relationships for 23 years, one with her high school sweetheart and another long term relationship a little bit later. And she'll get more into that as we go. today. We're gonna chat about her story, how she overcame her abuse and started healing and building confidence and what she does to help other survivors overcome narcissism. Hi, Carrie, welcome on. I'm so excited to have you today. Hi, Marissa. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. Of course, we're so happy to have you. I love NLP. I think that it's so interesting. So I definitely want to dive into them later. But would you mind telling us your story? Sure.
I dated my high school sweetheart for a total of six years, we were married for almost four didn't start out as a as an abusive relationship. He was basically my knight in shining armor, you know, he treated me well, my doors, he did things that no other guy ever did. And just fell head over heels. The longer in the relationship we went, things happened red flags, I thought I was so in love that, you know, I can overlook those things. Once we got married, things really started to change. And I'm not even sure where you know, a timeframe but telling me that I couldn't do things because I couldn't I wouldn't make any money or, you know, all my friends sucked. You know, didn't like anybody I was with, or that I hung around with. So just start started distancing myself from those people because my husband didn't like them. That's what I was supposed to do. Right? Couldn't have any male friends because all they wanted to do was get my pants, you know, and just bashed me for all the male friends I had and my best friend, thank God, she was still my best friend. We went through a rough patch, but my best friend from first grade, I don't like her, you can hang around her. I gave up my best friend since first grade for him. It's my husband, he's telling me I can't hang around these people. Like I have to listen to him. Right? You know, and all of the things he was telling me and just the self confidence stuff, just you know, with the toilet, if you don't even realize it when it's happening. Couldn't keep a job for two years because of the things that were going on in the relationship. He had this way of always turning things around on onto me, it'd be my fault. I caught him going through some of my stuff, my personal stuff one day, so I was questioning him about it. Well, two minutes in all of a sudden is my whole were arguing about something else totally took the spotlight off of themselves. He wanted to be a state trooper. So he's really great at interrogation tactics and turning things around in used it on me all the time. He broke up with me several times, I always took him back. He had a really good way of hoovering me back in cold sucking it back in, he would go out with his friends, because, you know, by this time, I didn't have any friends, he would go out with his friends leave me home wouldn't come home, all night long. I'm walking out the door to go to work the next day. And he's coming home in thought that that was okay. wasn't financially helping with anything. I remember one instance where we moved into a new apartment and had to buy some furniture. So I went out and I bought a matching table, sofa back table to put in our entranceway. He gets so upset with me over that he went out and he bought a $7,000 motorcycle, and didn't tell me and thought that was okay. He had this look that he he always gave me that. I always knew that, oh, I'm in trouble now. We're young, and it's like, wait till we get home. And then I was in court. He just, he had this way of talking. That didn't sound like he was talking down to you. He had me convinced that my parents were the worst parents in the world. We talked about having kids, you know, and he's like, Well, just look at the way your mom raised you Why would you want to have kids? Would you raise it just like your mom did? And yeah, just it was unbelievable. The things that he would say and had me convinced of. So yeah, I started distancing myself from my parents thinking, you know, oh, my God, he's right. They're so bad that I'm the way I am. Because of them. You know, without me even realizing it isolated me from people and family. And the only people that we would ever go see would be his family. In You know, I just after the third time of taking him back in the staying out all night, and not telling me where he was at what he was doing and who he was with. And I had just had enough. I was tired of feeling like crap and being alone. And so I finally said, I'm done. He tried to Hoover me back in the akiem and crawl that is literally on his knees crying. Please don't leave me. I love you. And if you're trying to have these big crocodile tears down his face, and I'm just looked at him, and I'm like, No, I'm done. You had your chance. You don't want me, I'm not gonna let you continue to treat me this way. And then shortly after that started the second relationship. This is something that I normally don't do, I was I started dating somebody that I work with being lonely and just coming out of a bad relationship after six years and not getting any attention. And then all of a sudden, getting that great attention again, from somebody else ended up spending 16 years with this man moved in together after two years, not long after we started living together, he would say things just to get a reaction out of me, which was out of the ordinary for him, because it's not something he had did when we were just eating. And it wasn't all the time. And it just kind of progressively got worse from there. Once a while he'd call me name and get really so angry at me over over silly things and call me a name. And I'm like, Okay, it's just because he's angry, no big deal. Over the years, it progressively got worse, would make make me believe that the way I remembered things happening didn't actually happen. The gaslighting was unreal, making me think that I crazy for feeling the way I was feeling for thinking the way I was thinking, being told You're too sensitive. You know, just get over it, telling me oh, you're overweight you need, you need to start working out. So I start working out. And then he tells me oh, you can't work out in the house, you're gonna wear a hole in the rug. So I would go and work out in the barn on the cement floor. And then could only do that for a while because my back would hurt so bad and hardly walk. You know, just made my life so difficult, made sure that I was paying for things more than he was. So I was always financially living paycheck to paycheck. I was laid off at one point on unemployment. And our agreement was I would pay for the groceries every month. And you know, being on unemployment, you don't have a ton of money to go for a month, you know, and I would come home with this little bit of groceries and he's like, Well, just because you're on an unemployment doesn't mean I have to eat like a popper. So I would have to spend my entire unemployment check on food for him so he could eat like a king. Just he would I would clean the house and he'd come behind me and redo it all because I didn't do it good enough. The first time I
move my stuff that Tommy just things to make you really feel like you were you're crazy. I know I put this here Where did it go? You know and all of a sudden it's on the dresser in the bedroom. It's Seems so simplistic when he when I'm talking about it. And so well, that doesn't sound like abuse. But all of the things that he did that added up over the years in the progression of it, and the things he what he said, and the looks on his face when he said it in the last four years of our relationship, every time we got in a fight it was Fuck you, you know, you're you know, you stupid training. Are you stupid idiot, you're such a twat, you know, just the name calling out where's the swearing at? You got worse, and his wife, but he tells me you don't just get respect, you have to earn respect. So basically, he was telling me I have no respect for you. Even though you're my wife, the ghosting, he was really good at that. He goes to me once for eight days. In totally not look, sound a word nothing acted like I didn't even exist for eight days. You were in the same house in the same house. Yep. I never knew what I was going to come home to if he was going to be in a good mood or bad mood and, or anything in between. I walked on eggshells for eight to 10 years of our relationship, because you couldn't piss him off. If the house was clean. When he came home, he blew a gasket. And if it wasn't clean to his specifications, how did you get out? What did you do? The breaking point for me in that relationship was at this point he was he was sleeping on the couch every night. And I was sleeping in the bedroom. And he worked kind of a second shift swing shift. So when he got home at 1112 o'clock at night, he'd stay up until two three o'clock in the morning and then sleep until 1112 o'clock in the afternoon. And we had a dog. So he's in the living room sleeping on the couch and I'm in the bathroom. The dog is outside barking, he wakes up because of the dog barking, comes to the bathroom, punches open the door. It slams into the curio cabinet. I can't believe the glass didn't break in the look of rage. The complete look in his stance I was trapped in this bathroom with this man. So enraged, I thought he was gonna I was gonna hit me. I thought he was gonna beat me because the dog was barking. In the words that just came out of his mouth. I couldn't believe he was talking to me that way. With the look on his face in I don't know why he walked away. And he didn't come into the bathroom. He let me out. I grabbed the dog and I went to my parents house. In that today I asked my parents, if I divorced him, Can I move in? In a set? Absolutely. And I said I'm bringing the dog with me. Is that okay? And they said yes. That's negotiable. That was a non negotiable I got my dog has come on with me. I'm not leaving him here with this guy. They will never forget the look on his face that day. And I have always said I will never be one of those women that a guy will hit you and I wasn't going to stick around to find out if this or that was my self competence and my self esteem was zip. I don't know how I survived. Afterwards, maintaining a life. I felt like I was this big. I was the worst person on earth. No one's ever gonna love me. For me. I always have to change to make people you know, so that people will love me in when I change. That's not even good enough. Just this whole perfectionist persona that I was trying to put together was never good enough. During our relationship, I turned to alcohol to cope, because I never knew what I was going to come home to and it was easier to deal with it. If I was buzzed drinking 45 bottles of wine a week, I became a workaholic. Because I didn't want to come home. I'd leave for work as soon as early as possible. And I'd stay at work as late as possible because they didn't want to didn't want to be there with them. I was able to save up enough money to pay for a lawyer. It took about three months. And I told him I says I'm done. I'm walking away. In that conversation he called me the narcissist will never admit there are exactly I forgiven them. And I have I didn't do it for him. I did it for me.
I'm all about forgiveness being for the survivor and not for the abuser right we forgive so that we let go because holding on to it doesn't serve us in a positive way at all. And it doesn't impact our abuser or narcissist. It's literally just holding us back. So can you talk about maybe what you did that helped you forgive him and move forward or if there was any like there's a typical Give, that'd be amazing. Yeah. So even before I, I filed for divorce, I knew that there had to be something better that I can't live like this. So I started doing guided meditations. And one of the ones that I used to listen to every day was Doreen Virtue in cutting the cords and calling the angels down. And in going through this, it was like I don't like I don't 20 or 30 minute guided meditation to cut these chords. So I did that a lot. And that really helped. I did a lot of Louise Hays stuff from Hay House, you know, looking in the mirror and telling myself, I love you, you're perfect the way you are, you know, just a lot of that type of stuff. I think that took me a couple of years, just knowing that it was still eating at me. And in his eye, he was so much that I forgave him a lot. For my healing, I had to forgive myself more for letting myself get sucked into all of that. And that knowing that what was going on was unhealthy. I think that's more important for healing. Is the forgiving yourself versus the the forgiving the abuser. For my perspective anyway. I agree. 100%. Was there like a feeling that you had, when you forgive yourself? And forgive him? Did you have a, like, a divine feeling or anything when that happened? Yeah, I think there was more of a lighter feeling, which kind of progressed into the feeling happier and allowing myself to feel happy, not feeling guilty for feeling happy. And I think once I finally forgave myself, for allowing this to happen, and twice, you know, for for so long, I was finally able to get into a new relationship in a healthy relationship and see, the things that weren't supposed to happen versus the things that are supposed to happen. I think when we get stuck in that, that wallowing of that victim mentality, we're so stuck on all of the things that have happened. That's all we see, in order to get beyond seeing that, in experiencing that stuff is is the self forgiveness, and then the forgiving the abuser and saying, I am no longer going to allow that to control me or my life. I want to move on beyond there. I want to laugh and I want to smile. I deserve to be happy. I'm worthy of happiness, I'm gonna cry. And just realizing that I never even knew narcissism existed, until I was almost over with the second relationship. And that it's so prevalent in a world in the work that you do in the work that all these other people are doing to help these people help, you know, through the verbal and emotional abuse is so wonderful. I never knew that. That stuff existed until I got into the healing portion of it. And even six years after leaving that relationship, still feeling the unworthiness. I you know, I'm not even I don't deserve to be loved. I'm not perfect, I have to be perfect before anybody will love me. That still is cycling in the background in your unconscious mind. I think I found this lady who was my business mentor for massage therapy, massage therapy business. She's a NLP master trainer. And I went through her class and became certified in NLP. And the breakthrough that I have had with the techniques from NLP, to release all of those unconscious beliefs about myself that were installed from somebody else has just been phenomenal. That's
incredible. You don't even realize the self sabotaging habits you have. Because it's so habitual that even in my new relationship, you know, I'm like, I feel like this is going down that same road even though it's it's healthy and we're happy I feel like there's there's something wrong and why is that if I'm happy if we have a healthy relationship Why does Why does it feel like something's wrong get past that honeymoon phase in it starts to get it starts to get normal, you know, normal or mundane? Or you know, you get used you get into your rhythm and your your habits with each other whatever. You start putting on weight be a little lacks and you know, doing all that stuff and that's what was happening with me he was you know, turning back to wine and starting to put on the weight in eating food. You know, that was the other thing is I turned to food oh my god
and I'm just like If there's something going on here, and I can't figure it out, I, you know, I started working out twice a day for three months and didn't lose a single pound. And I'm like, What is going on here? This is not right. And that's not long after that I on NLP and had a breakthrough session with Rebecca and come to find out, you know my breakfast session was hurt with her was I can't lose weight no matter what I do I can't lose weight. Well it came down to that was just a symptom of I felt unworthy of love, I have to be perfect to be loved and filling it with food. That and I didn't even realize I was doing this I would eat every meal I would eat so much I would eat I almost puked in not even realizing I'm not full until I want I'm almost puking. Because I want to fill that void inside. I'm not loving, or being loved or not even loving myself with food, I had my breakthrough session with her. And within two months, I think it was two or three months, I can't remember, I lost 16 pounds. Wow, I say, you know, just by releasing that unconscious belief, I no longer need food to fill the void inside me. Even the realization of knowing that's what you're doing is huge. Bringing the unconscious to the conscious and bringing awareness to it. Everything we do all day long, 95% of our actions are habitual, they're unconsciously done. So unconsciously eating to the point of puking at every meal. And then realizing Wait a minute, this isn't how you're supposed to feel after you eat. It's just it's so crazy to me that changing that one little habit of negative self talk released so much stress and tension and emotion from your body that you were able to drop weight like that. Yeah, we're just our bodies are programmed to keep us safe. And to keep us surviving. And making that one little change can be so life changing. Absolutely. You know, I'm still working on the perfectionist part. I thought I had that pretty well lived. But I still feel like you know, there's some lingering fingers of that hanging on but it's not just even people who have been abused is everybody has these unconscious beliefs that are running the program, that you don't even realize they're sabotaging you. And they're not even your beliefs. They are things that have been installed in you by your parents, your grandparents, your teachers, your pastors, your preachers, the government, the police, you know, whoever have people of authority, that at the time may have been okay, if whatever feeling you attached to that, at the time, became an unconscious belief and is still running in the background. And it may no longer be serving you. But it's stopping you from living your life the way you want to live it. I talk to these ladies all the time, who are still in narcissistic relationships and are I don't know that I can leave, I want to go back, I missed them. And just even some of them. They're saying, I'm to the point I'm done, I want to take my life. And I'm just like, I feel for them so deeply that I just want to reach out and tell them no, you're just we all we have to do is change a couple beliefs in you it is so easy. And that's the thing with NLP is you don't have to relive all of the stuff that you've been through to change those beliefs. You don't have to sit in a counselor's office and rehash every incident and replay everything in your mind to get past it and heal from it. Absolutely, exactly. I told my mentors, this is something this is something I have been looking my entire life. I've been looking for this, I never never knew what it was. It blew my mind. There are some things you have to do when you do coaching with NLP, that can be really difficult. But the difficulty is there to help you change the unconscious belief and release it. We make it for you to do your unconscious belief more difficult, so that it's easier to release it. If that makes sense. Do you put in the work, you put in the effort so that like the reward is greater than the risk? If that makes sense?
Right? The behavior becomes so much more difficult with the tasking that we give you in NLP, that you no longer want to do that behavior. So it changes into something else and it's usually install a more positive better belief for you. And it's easier for you to do that belief. That's incorrect. So as long as you're willing to do that work and get that new positive belief, then there's no stopping you. You're basically just reprogramming your brain to stop believing the crap and the nasty things and the negative messages that we're being told by our abusers, and in our past by other people, you're just rewriting them, it stinks, because you have to try and remember all the horrible things that they've said to you. But once you remember them all, you can rewrite them. And I just think that's awesome. And you're you're healthier, and happier and live lighter. And that heaviness on your shoulders and in your chest just isn't there anymore. Totally free. Absolutely. I know, it's been a life changer for me. Even with my massage therapy, business, releasing all of that negative self talk and unconscious beliefs, my massage therapy business is taking off again. Oh, yeah, I've reached a new, a new height with that, when I first started, I've been on my private practice on my own for five years. And for the first two or three years, I have never been able to get booked out beyond a certain point, and then things start to wane off a little bit. It's that whole self sabotaging thing, you know, I get to a point where I believe I can't do any better than that. I did my breakthrough session I releasing a lot of that stuff. In one of one of the the limiting beliefs I had from the abuse is, if you can't see me, you can't humiliate me. So you can't abuse me. So unconsciously I was doing things so people couldn't see me. So I only had a certain amount of people who were coming to my business or could see my business. So my business plateaued at a certain way, releasing all of those negative beliefs in self sabotaging behaviors. Within two weeks, my business became booked out four weeks in advance. Hey, congrats. That's awesome. Thank you. It's like, how can that happen? How does that work? In you stop doing the things. It I don't even know what they were, but just stop doing the things that were holding me back from other people seeing who I am in my work in it seeing my business in a cassette, all it took was two weeks. And it just I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. This is all you know, I spent half my life in abusive relationships, in feeling shitty and crappy about myself. And in nobody loves me in for six years of my life thinking my parents were the worst people on Earth in they can't believe they raised me the way they did. And you know, oh my God, my sisters are so bad. And knowing that his belief of trying to whatever his belief was was trying, you know, his narcissistic behavior of isolating me to try to control me, and letting him do that. Installing those negative beliefs. In hindsight, you can heal from this, you can have whatever you want, you can be whoever you are, and whoever you want to be. It is okay. And if people who don't agree with you, or accept you for who you are and who you want to be, and it's okay to walk away from them. There are more people in the world to associate with it having your tribe.
Yes. It's true is everything you said is true. I agree. 100%. It's so hard to see it when you're in it, like you had said earlier. But when you're out of you're like, oh my god, I can't believe I let this person get away with all of that. I mean, when you were telling your story about your high school sweetheart, it really sent me back to my my first abusive relationship. A lot of the things were the same, you know, he started off great and thoughtful and charming, and then it just like snap changed. And then it was the demeaning and but when I was there, all I could think about was, I know him I know deep down and and he's charming and kind and considerate. But he's not he was showing me his true colors hiding in plain sight, and so was yours, you know, and so to all narcissists, first they hook us and then they show their true colors. But there are like, but like you said that there are people out there who will love you and accept you for who you are and encourage you not to sacrifice yourself for somebody else. So you're in a healthy relationship now, which is incredible, and you deserve it. So portugu Can you tell us a little bit about how it feels? Does it feel different? Yeah. Wow. To be able to have a conversation about Something that you disagree about it actually an actual adult conversation. There's no yelling, there's no swearing, there's no name calling, coming to a peaceful resolution in just a conversation. The first time that happened, I'm just like, wow, that's real, we can do that. It's a foreign concept, you know? Just absolutely having the ability to laugh at him in at myself and us in the amount of laughter in the house has been so great. I mean, I truly believe laughter is the best medicine for 23 years, there wasn't much laughter. And everything was so serious and everything was so. So dull. Seeing everything with a brighter view, I guess, a brighter vision, a brighter lens, enjoying life, again, experiencing life again, experiencing what it really feels like to be loved, and not have to change myself. To think I'm being loved. He accepts all my flaws. I accept his in. It's okay. Good. I'm so happy that you found that, you know, it's amazing. I'm sure it feels extra amazing. Having endured what you endured for so long. And finally having somebody to come home to that's just easy. It is in the support in the uplifting in when I chose to open my business, he was off for it. And he was right there looking for places in spaces with the painting walls and putting up trim. And you know, just being able to depend on him is huge. Because Exner number two, I couldn't ask him to do anything because he would tell me no, or would never follow through. And I always have to figure out how to get these things done on my own. And if I have to hire contractors to come in here and do all this stuff, I don't know that. He's like, Yeah, I can help you to be want me to pay, you know, do it because I love you. And I don't have to beg him to come to my family functions. Let's just go visit. Okay. Ex narc. Number one the day my sister got married, he showed up at the church and says I don't feel good. I'm going home and bailed out MST on my sister's wedding. It's just stuff like that we both have. We have plans for two weeks in the day. And I'm not going mean I go to visitation and then have to go and make excuses. Right? in not having to do that now. And having him be the one to say visit your mom. Yeah, all those things.
[INTRO]
Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute, over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don't talk about it enough. Healing from emotional abuse isn't a band-aid situation, but it doesn't have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the world have been impacted by their narcissist, yours doesn't have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and founder of the Healing from Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F Cohen.
MARISSA: Overcoming narcissism and healing from emotional abuse are so important to your mental health and to living a life filled with freedom, confidence and peace. Today, we're going to be talking to Patrick Monet, who is a Trauma Informed Therapist, EMDR Therapist, and he's just hilarious. But before we start, I want to brainstorm ways that I can help ease your healing journey. Imagine you're standing on a cliff and on the other side of a deep, deep canyon is a life that you dream of. A partner who connects with you, supports you and empowers you, someone who makes you smile and laugh a life filled with freedom, confidence and peace. I have been where you are now, standing on the edge, dreaming of that life. And I've built the bridge between where you are now and that dream that seems so far away. Let me walk you across the bridge and literally hand you the life of your dreams. It's possible! I've walked this path with 1000s of survivors before who were in your place who now live a free, confident and peaceful life. Let's walk this path together. Don't waste any more time feeling lonely, worthless or exhausted. It's not worth it and you deserve to live a happy life. Schedule a call with me today at scheduleacallwithmarissa.com.
Welcome back to healing from emotional abuse. Today we have an awesome guest and we've been vibing for the past 10 minutes just chatting about Jewish guilt and Catholic guilt and being silly. So today we have Patrick Monette. He's a licensed mental health, addiction and certified trauma counselor, located in northern New York. He's also a certified EMDR Therapist and EMDRIA Approved Consultant and trained couples counselor. He's got a great resume. His work focuses on helping people learn healthy coping skills and resourcing as part of their trauma treatment. He has taught at local universities and maintains a private practice focusing on couples work and trauma informed treatment, as well as gender issues, anger management and co-occurring disorders. He's actively engaged in a local community drug court system as a mental health consultant and educator. Patrick is fluent in English and Spanish and offers treatment in both languages. Welcome on Patrick. Jeez your work is great.
PATRICK: Thanks Marissa, I sound so fancy. So it's so nice, thank you. I'm so honored to be on your show and to connect with you. And I can't think of a better way to end a crazy week and then hanging out together. So I'm super excited to be here.
MARISSA: Thank you, I feel the exact same way. So would you mind outside of your intro just like telling us a little bit about yourself, what you do, what you enjoy...
PATRICK: So you know, as I was saying, it's like I'm pretty low key. So I'm in private practice. I'm a mental health counselor. And I love working with a variety of people. In my private practice, especially with COVID my practice is completely online. So I've been able to modify all that where I do individual therapy, group therapy. And I also started offering online couple retreats, which has been really powerful, which I really love. So EMDR is a trauma informed treatment, so I also work with that. I assistant in trainings and I also do a lot of consultation for people who are learning EMDR, which I just love as well. So it's a really nice blend of different professional experiences.
MARISSA: That's awesome. So I have heard so many positive things about EMDR therapy, and how it's helped sexual assault and domestic violence survivors. Would you mind just giving us like the very basic about what EMDR is?
PATRICK: Sure. So EMDR stands for Eye Movement De-sensitization and Reprocessing Therapy, which is a mouthful. It was created in the 80s by Dr. Francine Shapiro. And the basic version that I can say is that it helps to identify targets or issues that you've been struggling with whether it's specific trauma or disturbing events or upsetting events, that gets stuck in certain parts of your brain. And with EMDR interventions, we're able to help the brain communicate more efficiently to be able to take those disturbing events and make them more adaptive, so they're not causing you so much pain and harm. So you can be, I don't want to say move on, but so they're not harming you and as painful as they once were.
MARISSA: Wow, that's really awesome. I'm still not entirely understanding of like the intricacies of that.
PATRICK: So basically what happens is, for example, when you go about your regular day, and then you go home, and you rest, and you go into your REM sleep, your deep sleep, your brain is able to process everything that's happened during that day. So when you get up in the next day, you're like, okay, I had breakfast, we did this, we chatted, and then there isn't any distress really. When something traumatic happens, the brain cannot process it, it's almost like too big. If you think of it like a conveyor belt, that memory, that event is too big to go down into the other parts. So it gets lodged. And then it gets stuck on that part of the brain, which then leads into a whole bunch of other issues of, you know, when we're talking about PTSD, flashbacks, nightmares, other anxiety, depression. That's why a lot of people when they can't, quote-unquote, move past a trauma, they either develop anxiety, depression, I see a lot of people who develop addiction related issues, because they're trying to eradicate the pain.
MARISSA: That makes a lot more sense. Honestly, thinking about it as like a survivor, I feel like the most common immediate response is if I just stopped thinking about it, it'll go away. I want this to go away...
PATRICK: If I wash it away.
MARISSA: Time will make it go away, because that's not true. And so EMDR therapy breaks that down, and like allows your brain to process it. That is super cool.
PATRICK: So if you think of it, the trauma is like a giant iceberg in your brain, and then by doing what we call bilateral stimulation, which is a really natural intervention, it melts down that iceberg, and then it can go into the channel into your brain, where it doesn't make the event get erased, but you can move on with your life without being harpooned back to that pain anytime you might be potentially triggered or reminded of that event.
MARISSA: How long does it take generally, for somebody who has experienced severe domestic violence or sexual assault, to really be able to move forward using EMDR?
PATRICK: That's a great question. And it's really case by case because it depends on the severity of the attack, of the abuse, of the violence. Every person that I work with, when we say we're trauma informed care, that is, for me, it means we're taking this slow. Not because I want you to be in pain longer, but because safety has been bastardized in your life. We want to look at security, we want to do the safe and sound in the way of let's figure out what you are able to address, and what you actually need to work on. Because everyone needs different things. Sometimes it's guilt, anger, shame, it might be different aspects of their lives that are affected by the trauma. I just take my time to really see, build that strong therapeutic relationship with clients to see what is it that you actually want to work on? And let me see what I can do to support you on that. Now, when you get into the EMDR therapy itself, it's really a case by case scenario of everyone's individual brain processing. Of how how much EMDR they might need, how much time they need to process it. In addition to what I see is, are they still in the relationship? Are they still in a situation? Which is very different compared to if they're out, that freedom, it's all of those, if their basic needs are being met. So I kind of look at all these different components when I'm meeting with someone.
MARISSA: That makes a lot of sense. So in my mind, I saw it as a resource for after people leave, but people who are still in abusive relationships, they come and work with you too?
PATRICK: Yes, yes.
MARISSA: Do you know like, how it affects them? Or if doing EMDR has encouraged people to leave faster? Have you gotten that kind of response?
PATRICK: See, I think a lot of times, and I'm sure you've seen this with your own experiences and other people is there's that expectation sometimes that people when they're in those situations of just leave, turn it off. If it was that easy, it would be. But there's that deep emotional and psychological component going on when you're in those abusive and destructive situations. A lot of times what I've noticed with my people is when we're doing EMDR it's kind of like they're going through a snowstorm and we're giving them some additional support to get clarity. So when you're doing some other trauma informed care treatments, you have to talk about the trauma and you desensitize, you decrease the trauma. But with EMDR, you don't actually have to talk about it as much. You identify what the target is, what the problem is, and it's more about this beautiful journey of what do you believe about yourself? So, for example, when someone stays in that relationship, I'd say, so when you think of this abusive relationship, what is the negative belief that you're telling yourself? And being able to look at the negative beliefs, and help the clients just sort of build a little bit more resilience and clarity into what's going on. Because when you're in those situations, there's usually such a high level of psychological damage going on, that you don't even know who you are sometimes.
MARISSA: That is so true. And that's something that I also identify in my coaching is that you lose yourself in abuse, because they program you to feel differently than you might actually feel and take away the aspects of your life and of your identity, that might be very personal to you. Wow, that's really, really cool. I'm so happy that that exists, and that that's getting more clout, and more attention now.
So let's get off the EMDR topic, although I could talk about this with you all day, because I think it's awesome. We were having a separate conversation before we started about guilt, and how guilt in different religions plays a role in just how people interact. But specifically what I want to talk about, because you come from a Catholic upbringing, is how Christianity and how Catholicism view abuse, and the guilt of staying in an abusive situation.
PATRICK: It's so hard because most of us grew up to believe, you know, if we grew up in a belief system, that that's supposed to be our protection. That that's where we're supposed to be safe. But the more [audio break 12:02] there is, and a lot of these situations, and how that division of power is used. We're in a religious system.
MARISSA: That makes sense. And I can speak from Judaism. I'm not Hasidic or religious really, but in very Hasidic communities, which Catholicism in my opinion is like a more religious aspect of Christianity, and I could be very incorrect, so please correct me if I'm wrong. But in Hasidic communities, they don't go outside of their community at all. Everybody takes their questions and their problems to the Rabbi, to the head Rabbi, he's the person in charge. So in domestic violence in Hasidic communities, the Rabbi is the one who gets to say, well, what are you doing to anger your husband? Or what are you doing wrong? You, the wife, generally, are the peacemaker in the household and so you need to be the one fixing the problem.
PATRICK: I don't want to generalize, I can only speak to my experience in certain things. I grew up where about sinning and when you make that vow in the Catholic Church, it's forever and all these different things. But I've also seen where there's that abusive thing of, you're going to disappoint God by ending this marriage or by leaving it, or look at the damage, it's a lot of victim blaming.
MARISSA: That's a good way to put it.
PATRICK: And that shame, I mean, not even talking about guilt, let's latch on to that shame of you're letting God down. You put that on top of someone who's being abused in every aspect of abuse that there is, and it's such a deadly cocktail. I've also seen people, amazing advocates in the Catholic Church. It's hard because during the last few years if we're going to keep it real, the coming to light about all the abuse in the Catholic Church towards children. So it's really like a mushroom of different issues right?
MARISSA: Yeah. I mean, I definitely see your point. I mean, it's a person by person conversation. So there are some rabbis who'd be like, get out. And there are some rabbits would be like, no, you stay, this is your problem. And I'm sure it's the same thing with priests and pastors and everybody, it's a very person by person basis.
PATRICK: What I have seen in some experiences with clients is sometimes they get into those situations where they are blamed. You're not praying hard enough, you're not doing this. And I'm a person of faith, I love God. It's a huge part of my -- I don't identify as Catholic. I'm more spiritual, but there is a place for prayer and there's a place for action and therapy.
MARISSA: Yes.
PATRICK: And I think they can dance really well, too. I mean, in my life they have, but in other people, it's hard because there's such abuse in the spiritual world and or in the religious world. I always go to is like, if this doesn't feel right, it's probably not right for me.
MARISSA: That's a good way to look at it. And I think that a lot of religion is kind of just how you consume it and how you process it. Because there's different sects of every religion that read the same texts, but just observe differently. And so when it comes to trauma, and it comes to domestic violence, because it's a private issue, people don't really know how to handle it. So a lot of people turn to religion. I guess my biggest concern with that is because the text is susceptible to being -- like you can read it and understand it a different way.
PATRICK: The interpretation, and it's usually not in favor of women or anyone that's not a like white male. In my experiences, I could be wrong of the view, but it's...
MARISSA: I tend to agree with that.
PATRICK: It's like come on, we got to keep it real. Things have to evolve. And one of the things is, whether it's religion or not, is that shame and the secrecy that is so damaging to people who are experiencing violence and abuse.
MARISSA: And then if you if you interpret the text in a way that in order for you to leave, your partner needs to have cheated on you or asked for a divorce. That's so limiting, because in my opinion, and I could be wrong, but I don't think God or Jesus or Allah, like anyone, I don't think that being wants you to be unhappy or in a dangerous position. And so by looking at the text and saying point blank, no, you can't leave until that person asks to leave or until that person leaves, that's so dangerous.
PATRICK: Right. And it also takes away freewill choice, which that's part of the human experience.
MARISSA: Right. But I think that the religion, like when people interpret it that way, it consumes their whole life and they're not able to act on freewill...
PATRICK: Agreed, that they're supposed to sacrifice for the greater good in a way. Even though that version of the greater good may not be accurate or really true or loving.
MARISSA: Right, absolutely. So let's go back to your professional experience, you don't just do EMDR, you also do Addiction Therapy and Trauma Informed Therapies and stuff like that. So how often do you see like an overlap in other areas that probably stemmed from abuse or sexual assault, especially with addiction?
PATRICK: I would say, if I even like made it a little bit broader, if we just put in terms of trauma in general, I would say, probably like 98% of people that come in my door have some aspect of trauma.
MARISSA: Wow!
PATRICK: I think when we classify trauma it used to be 9-11, it used to be Vets. It used to be very specific populations. But the word trauma actually means a wound. So if you changed trauma for wound, how many people do we know that are wounded?
MARISSA: Everybody. Everybody has experiences that shaped them.
PATRICK: From COVID, to sexual assaults, a physical assault, to addiction to a million different things, to losing a job, to losing a child, to losing a relationship. And I think when you're doing trauma informed care, you have that broad view of this person has strength, they have resilience, because they've survived but there's some injuries, there's some wounds there, and maybe I can help them find ways to mend it and to move forward in a healthier way.
MARISSA: If there was one thing like one routine change, or one small activity that people could add to their daily routines that might alleviate some of that, do you have any like recommendations? Or do you have like any ideas of maybe something that you've done with other people?
PATRICK: This is going to sound funny, but I have clients ask them what they're feeling. Because how many of us are disconnected from our emotions? And if I don't have a relationship with my emotions, I'm probably not going to get very far.
MARISSA: That's very fair.
PATRICK: So it's just a check in throughout the day of how am I feeling right now? How am I feeling? And not having to necessarily do anything, but to develop our awareness. Because when we don't deal with our emotions, when we don't have a healthy relationship with them, it's sort of like building a house on top of swamp land, it's probably not going to go very well.
MARISSA: That makes so much sense. Just like becoming more self aware allows us to recognize and work through something that we need to process in that moment.
PATRICK: Right. And it sounds simple, like oh, that's not really profound. But if we put it through the lens of someone who's gone through something traumatic, a lot of times people, all of their energy is to avoid all the emotions. Because it's not safe. It's painful. It's scary. Like you said, you just want to forget it. So you want me to talk about my feelings, that could be opening up a barrel of monkeys, that's really dangerous.
MARISSA: I think that that's something that's a really important thing to do is be able to check in. But what do you recommend starting doing that while in a therapy session, or with somebody who's licensed who might be able to help somebody through it? Because I know that right after my abuse, if I was trying to do a check-in, I probably would have like, launched myself off a bridge and I'm not saying that to be funny. Like I would have tried to attempt suicide.
PATRICK: Definitely! And when I'm working with someone, especially with EMDR there are very specific techniques that I teach clients, almost every client, of how to help improve their emotional regulations that -- going back to the brain function, that helped them sort of develop ways to ride those waves of emotion instead of being drowned by them. So definitely reaching out for help, someone that can be there for you that's objective that can give you specific skills to improve your emotional functioning.
[OUTRO]
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.marisafayecohen.com/private-coaching. That's www.marissafayecohen.com/private-coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made for you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone and hurt and live a free, confident and peaceful life. Don't forget to subscribe to the Healing from Emotional Abuse Podcast and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen and Instagram at Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We'd love to see you there.
[INTRO]
Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute, over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don't talk about it enough. Healing from emotional abuse isn't a band aid situation, but it doesn't have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the world have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn't have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and founder of the healing from emotional abuse philosophy, Marissa F Cohen.
MARISSA: Overcoming narcissism and healing from emotional abuse are so important to your mental health and to living a life of freedom, confidence and peace. Today, we're talking to our special guest Lorraine Patterson about self love and healing after abuse. But before we start, I want to brainstorm ways that I can help ease your healing. Imagine you're standing on a cliff. And on the other side of a deep, deep canyon is the life that you dream of. A partner who connects with you, supports you and empowers you, a partner that makes you laugh and smile, a life filled with freedom and confidence and peace. I've been where you are now, standing on the edge, dreaming of that life. And I've built the bridge between where you are now and that dream that seems so far away. Let me walk you across that bridge and literally hand you the life of your dreams. It's possible! I've walked this path with thousands of survivors who live a free, confident and peaceful life. Let's walk this path together. Don't waste any more time feeling lonely, worthless or exhausted. Schedule a call with me today at scheduleacallwithmarissa.com.
Okay, welcome back to Healing from Emotional Abuse. My name is Marissa F. Cohen and I am joined today with Lorraine Patterson. Lorraine is an incredible survivor who's here today to share her story with us about surviving, her book - Freeing your Heart for Love, and a little bit of insight about how she healed and overcame her abuse. So Lorraine, welcome! Today I'm so happy to have you here. Thank you.
LORRAINE: Yes, thank you Marissa for having me and allowing me to share my story.
MARISSA: Of course. So introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about yourself.
LORRAINE: Yes, so my name is Lorraine, and I am a mother of four boys. Three bonus children and three grandkids, so I'm a grandma. I have a very blessed life. I am married to the love of my life, but it hasn't always been a blessed life. As Marissa explained in my bio, I was at a really young age, I don't remember a lot because I went through a lot of abuse as a child. And so both my parents were both physically and mentally abusive. And so I grew up in that environment of not learning how to love or not even really knowing what love is. And so at the age of 16, I had my first suicidal thoughts. And I didn't know where all of that was coming from. I just knew that I was really sad and that I didn't want to be alive anymore. So I didn't know what to do with those feelings. But what I ended up doing was running away.
So I ran away with a boyfriend of mine who ended up being my husband, he was my first husband. And I married him at the age of 17. My mom's husband at the time convinced him to marry me when I came back home. And so I ended up marrying him and leaving that chaotic household, thinking that I was going to go into my happily ever after. But what I ended up doing was just going into nine more years of mental and physical abuse. So I married him at the age of 17. I was with him for nine years. And he was, let's say mentally abusive, meaning he would always put me down. We had two beautiful boys. But he was cheating on me all the time. He was an alcoholic. He was arrested for dealing drugs, so he went to prison for three years. So I was left to take care of two small children on my own while running a family business. So that was really hard. I was so young, I was still trying to figure out my life. I was in my 20s, so I was trying to figure out my career. I somehow managed all of that while he was in prison. But it also gave me the strength to finally leave him. So when he went to prison, I felt like I was released from prison because I could never leave him. He had this control over me. And because I married him at such a young age I didn't really have the strength to speak up for anything in that marriage at all.
And so I finally got away, we divorced but then I still was attracting controlling men. Controlling, unavailable men. I was putting myself in situations that were unloving and disrespectful to myself, my body, my soul, because I didn't know what love was. I was seeking for love outside of myself. And so I was most looking for it in men. So my whole story that I write about in my book is just about going through all of these bad relationships because I met and married a second guy, which wasn't a bad guy.
But because I was so broken inside, I didn't realize how to be in that relationship. And he also still had that control over me, because my dad was a controlling man. And I didn't realize that until later on that I was attracting how I felt inside, I was attracting those people in my life. And so I married him for about six years, we had two boys. And so I did have two beautiful boys out of that marriage. But that marriage didn't last. And when I divorced him is when I was in my 30s. And that's when I almost took my life. So that suicidal depression never went away from the age of 16, to my 30s. And so I almost took my life, but then I stopped myself, I heard something that night, and I write about it in my book about the experience, because when you're in that dark place of you don't want to be here anymore you just feel different things, you hear different things. And I heard something that night, and I ended up not taking my life and the next day, I got therapy.
And the therapist told me if you take your life, you will break your children. And I didn't want to repeat that cycle of having broken children because I was a broken child. So I just kind of started working towards removing that feeling of being so depressed that my life wasn't worthy enough. And I discovered spirituality, I started practicing positive affirmations. And I started working on myself, but I still wasn't there with the love part. So it still took me probably another gosh, until I turned 42 is when I really woke up.
And that was in my third marriage, which is what I call my rock bottom relationship. Because that marriage actually broke me, that broke my soul. He had this illicit fantasy where he wanted me to make love in front of him with other men. And I didn't know he had this fantasy until after we married. And so I thought this was going to be a one time thing. But he wanted it all the time, it became this regular thing. And I felt like I needed to stay and do this for him. Because if I didn't do this for him, he would leave me and I would have three failed marriages. So essentially that thought in my head essentially broke me and after six months of being married to him, I couldn't do it anymore. And I woke up one day, well it was the last time we had this encounter. And I just remember looking at myself in the mirror, and it was just a hollow person. I was seeing myself going back to that depressive state that I was in that I said I was never going to go back to. And I started slipping back to that dark place. So finally I just woke up and said, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want this for my life. I deserve a man who loves and respects me. And I just divorced him and I started working on myself. And it still took me a couple more years to learn that lesson that I needed to learn in life, to love myself and discover self love.
And so that's when I transformed my life, was at the age of 45. And I met my husband who I'm married to now very happily married since 2019. But I couldn't have gotten to where I'm at today if I didn't discover that self love for myself. My heart basically had to break wide open to allow the love that I deserved in. And so I realized that, but it took me 29 years to get to that point in my life.
MARISSA: Thank you for sharing your story. And you brought up so many fascinating points. I just want to talk about all of them. So first and foremost, I don't think people realize, unless you experience it how much your childhood and the relationships that you grow up around, influence and impact the way that you perceive love. So, like you had said, you grew up feeling like emotional and mental abuse were normal. And so that shaped a lot of your relationships. Can you expand on that just a little?
LORRAINE: Yeah. So my parents, I don't remember them hugging me. I don't remember sitting on their lap, when kids are playing I don't remember going to the park. I don't remember a lot of the loving things that my parents used to do with me as a child. And that's all I knew. I thought chaotic life and abuse was normal, because that's what I grew up in. So when I was getting involved with these unavailable men, I kept telling myself, well, this is my life. This is who I am. And that was like my thoughts all the time. So each and every time I would meet somebody it would basically just be for sex. I ended up being just somebody that was like a sexual object. And until I realized my self worth and my value, I didn't get out of that cycle. It was one after the other, after the other, after the other. And every guy, I would just cry because I'm like, why is this happening to me, but it was what I was attracting because of how I felt about myself. I hated myself, I hated my body. I said negative things to myself all the time; that I was a horrible mother, I'm a loser, I'm an idiot. All of those thoughts were in my head. Now I don't say those at all. It's always I am loved, I am enough, I am worthy. And it's all these I can do it. It's more positive statements, instead of those negative statements that we tend to put in our head that really, really messes you up. I mean, it doesn't do you any good for your life at all?
MARISSA: Absolutely, I find that we tend to, just as survivors, we tend to mirror and repeat the negative things that people say to us. And then we do the most damage. Other people can say horrible things to us, and we can kind of let it bounce off. We can build that resilience, but when we're the ones saying it to ourselves, we're really deeply hurting ourselves. I mean, even down to our biology, we're really messing up our brains. So would you mind and I don't know if you're comfortable with this, would you mind sharing some positive affirmations that you use to help build yourself up? Was there anything specific?
LORRAINE: Yeah, so I follow Hay House. Louise Hay, that was the first person that I found with positive affirmations. And she's with Hay House, she discovered Hay House, she passed away. But I still get her calendar, which is sitting on my counter every day, it's just a calendar you can tear off. So a lot of her stuff is self love affirmations. And so I started practicing self love affirmations where I put it in my bathroom mirror so that when I go brush my teeth, I'm reading it every single day or I get like deck of cards through Gabby Bernstein who I adore. And I love Hay House. I say that Hay House saved my life, because discovering Hay House turned my life around for the good. And so you know, there's different things I read. I read unconditional love for myself type affirmations, the universe, I trust in the universe and the process. And so a lot of my affirmations are, the universe has my back, I trust the universe, I trust the process. And it's just a lot of adding I am in front of statements for me. And I look it up on Pinterest. Pinterest is a huge resource that I love looking at positive affirmations and it's all over my house. Live, love, laugh is something that I repeat constantly. I even have it tattooed on my arm.
MARISSA: Oh I love that.
LORRAINE: I grew up in an abusive home. And so I am the kind of person that needs to remind myself, even today, I'm going to be 49 this year, 16 years old is when I was depressed. But even today, I still have to remind myself that I am worthy. And it's just something that I think is never going to go away. It's just something that I have to work on every single day of my life. Because I can be that person that goes back to that sad place, I just choose not to.
MARISSA: Good. And I'm glad that you keep making that choice but like you said, it's work every single day. And I also have experienced abuse. And I am also constantly reminding myself. Something that I tell people all the time is to make a list of three things that you love about yourself. Even if you can't think of anything, ask somebody that you respect and love, three things about you that they love, put it on your mirror and repeat them to yourself three times a day every day. And I still do that, I've been doing that I don't even know, probably for 11 years, and it has never let me down. But what it does do is it allows me to catch my negative thoughts and say, nope, that's wrong. I'm not going to say that again. It makes you more self aware I think.
LORRAINE: Yeah, my first husband, he did a lot of damage to me. And he used to tell me that my nose was big. So for the longest time, I hated looking at myself in the mirror because I'm like, God is my nose big? I would say that to myself. And now I'm just like, I'm beautiful with my big nose, or without a big nose. I don't care.
MARISSA: Absolutely. And it's not funny, but it's funny that you say that, because I'm of Jewish heritage and we have that stereotype of having really big noses. And so growing up I also had a really big nose and that was like a bullying point for people. So I had this very similar issue. And what I did was I went in knowing that my nose was a part of my heritage and it was part of my family. And so now I can look at myself in the mirror and love myself in photos. And I'm glad that you also found a way to be able to love yourself and not that you don't deserve it. But sometimes words really stick.
LORRAINE: Oh yeah, it stuck with me for a really long time. I mean, all the way through. That was in my 20s when I was with him, but all the way through the 30s. But now I'm totally confident and comfortable in my own skin.
MARISSA: Good because you're beautiful. So tell us about your book Freeing your Heart for Love.
LORRAINE: Yes, my book. So I had talked about writing this book for over a decade with my friends. My friends would always share my story, like what I just shared a part of it with you, and they would always tell me, oh my gosh, you should write a book about your life. Consistently! Or like people would live through my life, because somehow it was so exciting. But they didn't know how sad I was. So I talked about it, I joked about it. And then in April of last year, I joined a virtual writing workshop with this healthcare company that I was working for. And it was just for fun, literally, like just to do writing prompts. But when I started doing the writing prompts, I started crying, because I was writing a lot about my past. And I don't know where this emotion was coming from. And something just told me, I think it's time to write your book. I just started typing in April of last year. And then I just dove into learning how to write a book. So I knew that I wanted to write a book, I knew my passion for writing, it was to inspire others and to help other people who are going through similar struggles. I wanted to share my experiences that way in a book. That's all I knew. And so I dove into like a 7-day writing challenge, I dove into a writer's community, I joined a book program, I got a book coach. And I just started investing my life into this book. And so I finished the manuscript in December of last year, I'm now done with everything completely, and I'm ready to print and I'm releasing in April of this year.
MARISSA: Congratulations! That's an amazing story and an amazing journey.
LORRAINE: Thank you and this is a huge accomplishment for me, because I never read books. I'm not a book reader. So to write a book was like, Oh my God, I wrote a book! I even cried tears of joy, because I can't believe I wrote a book. But it's already reaching so many people. I've been on a lot of podcasts, people are reaching out to me on Instagram that don't know me from all over the world - Iceland, New York, everywhere, London, and they're telling me how much I'm inspiring them. So I know that this book is going to take off because I was ashamed. I was like, I don't know if I want to put this out, this is like my most vulnerable experiences, especially about my third marriage. Nobody knew about this fetish that my husband had, I wasn't going to share it with anyone. But I feel like if there's a woman out there, or even a man, I think it happens to men, that if you don't want this for your life, you don't have to stay. There's a man out there or a woman that loves you unconditionally. You don't need to do this to your body to be loved.
MARISSA: That's an amazing revelation. And I think that it really impacts way more people than we know of, because like you, they're embarrassed to talk about it or felt uncomfortable talking about it. But this kind of thing, and these fetishes, and these preferences that people have that are closeted, can make you feel really bad about yourself, or make you feel uncomfortable or uneasy, and then you're trapped. So I'm really glad that you were able to open up about it and maybe not feel comfortable with it having happened, but feel comfortable sharing that part of your story and your life. And I think that's what makes you so relatable, and so easy to talk to, because you're just so open and confident and willing to share. So thank you so much.
LORRAINE: Just to add on to that is that if people are in that type of relationship, and they're okay with it, then that's okay. But I feel like I wasn't okay with it but I stayed because I was so scared that this guy was going to leave me. And I thought he was the end all, this was it. I wasn't going to have anybody else. I had four kids, I'd been through two marriages, nobody's going to want me. But I got all that out of my head. And I said, you know what, I deserve to be loved completely and respected and valued, because he didn't value me. He didn't respect our marriage. And that's not okay, if that's not what you want for your life.
MARISSA: Absolutely. I was not trying to kink shame. But there's definitely a societal standard, that you get married and that's it. Even now, it's still oh, you got divorced, ooh. But getting divorced twice, there's such a stigma with that. There's nothing wrong with that. We are human and we grow and we change, and so getting divorced and remarried and dating around like, none of that is a problem. We just need to change the way that we perceive it and we need to change the way that society responds to it.
LORRAINE: Yeah, because I mean, I was ashamed to tell people I was married three times. It's like, whoa!. Now you're married four times. I'm like, but I don't care because my husband truly is the man that I'm supposed to be with. I truly truly know that now.
MARISSA: You mind if I ask how you know that? Like what is it about your relationship that makes you know that he's right?
LORRAINE: There's so much so. So a psychic told me I was going to meet him, it's all in my book. She told me, I was going to meet them by the end of 2017, or the beginning of 2018, or I was never going to meet him. And I didn't know how I was going to meet him. But I met him in October of 2017. And he is exactly the person that she said he was going to be. She said, he was going to love you unconditionally. He's going to love your kids like they're his own. I've been with many guys, even past marriages that I was in and nobody loved my kids as much as he does. And so that I knew was the number one reason because the reason why a lot of these relationships didn't work in the past is because they didn't love my children. And if you don't love my children, then you don't love me. My children come with me. I'm not going to give up my kids. And there were thoughts in the back of my head sometimes, which is crazy to even think that that I'm going to choose a guy over my kids, that's not going to work. So that was the number one reason. Number two is that he just takes care of me. I had a surgery that happened before we got married and he stayed by my side the whole time, there hasn't been any man in my life that has supported me that much, or cared for me that much. As well as my book. There's things in my book that he didn't know. And so I had to be open and honest with him and tell him, listen, there's things in my book, I need your support before I start writing this book, otherwise, the book is not going to come out. And he said, no, I support you 100%. And he didn't judge me with these past experiences. And he accepts me for who I am. And so that's how I truly know that he is the man that I'm supposed to be with. Because there hasn't been any other man in my life that has treated me the way he treats me.
MARISSA: That's incredible. Take notes guys.
LORRAINE: True love does exist. I keep saying that.
MARISSA: It does. It really does. And don't lower your standards, right? Aim for exactly what you want, because anything less isn't worth it.
LORRAINE: Yeah. And it doesn't matter how old you are. I met him at 45. And there's a lot of women out there, you hear it, you see it on the internet, even on TV. Oh, my clock's ticking. I'm 30, am I going to be single for the rest of my life? Those are all the wrong thoughts. And that's the thoughts I had, until I said at the age of 45. I'm like, you know what, if I don't meet anybody, I'm perfectly fine with that. And that's when my husband came into my life. But it's like, you can't force the outcome. You can dream about your dream man but the universe will bring you what you manifest. You can't force it, like say, Oh, I want that guy. And that guy is going to come to me. It's just doesn't work that way.
MARISSA: No, I agree. I love that. Thank you. So where can we pre-order your book? Because it comes out in just a month. That's so exciting.
LORRAINE: Yeah, I know.
MARISSA: You're to be over the moon.
LORRAINE: I'm so like crying tears of joy. Because it's like, I saw the book cover, the back of it, I just finished the back of it and I'm like, Oh my God, I'm an author. But yeah, it's on pre-order now at freeingyourheartforlove.com, there are bonuses if you preorder it. Entered to win a Kindle, my author Q&A and my first chapter for free, and then the book comes out end of April. So yeah, you can go to my website, freeingyourheartforlove.com, and all my social media handles are on there too.
MARISSA: Awesome. Thank you so much. If you could give survivors one piece of advice, what would it be?
LORRAINE: You know, I would say forgiveness. I didn't realize how much I didn't forgive myself for things that I've done in the past until I wrote this book last year. So I would say forgive yourself, and forgive those that have hurt you in the past. Because it really is freeing to have that feeling of not holding on to that hurt anymore. So that would be the one thing that I learned about myself at the age of 49. I keep saying my age because it's crazy to think how long it took me. And that was the reason why I wrote this book, it's because I want somebody who's younger to not have to wait until their 40s to figure it out. Like you can read my experiences and know that you don't have to go through that.
MARISSA: That's a beautiful message. Thank you so much for all the work you're doing for survivors of abuse and assault and thank you so much for sharing your story with us and with the world. I think that you're going to make a huge impact. So thank you very, very much.
LORRAINE: Thank you so much.
[OUTRO]
If you enjoyed this podcast you have to check out www.marissafayecohen.com/private-coaching. That's www.marissafayecohen.com/private-coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made for you healing plant to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone and hurt and live a free, confident and peaceful life. Don't forget to subscribe to the Healing from Emotional Abuse Podcast and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen and Instagram at Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We'd love to see you there.
ROB: Alright ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to a very special edition of the BCP/Breaking Through our Silence tag team connection here as always with my partner and Marissa. We need it more than ever right now. She is Amazon award winning multiple time bestseller. My good friend Miss Marissa Cohen. Marissa, what's up over there?
MARISSA: Hey, it's snowed in Chicago yesterday, which really sucks.
ROB: Really?
MARISSA: Yeah.
ROB: That's crazy. Everything's been so crazy lately. There's a lot of drama in the Wrestling World. For me personally, this couldn't be a better time. Marissa, thank you as always for everything. And more importantly, we got to welcome our special guests at this time. She's a podcaster, shout out fellow podcaster. Known for the CZW Podcast also works with CZW. I'm very appreciative right now for Miss Wiggy Wigowski taking the time to talk to us about the Speaking Out Movement. Wiggy, how are you? Welcome.
WIGGY: Hey, I'm great. And I'm in Canada and it did not snow yesterday. So...
MARISSA: How did it miss you but hit me?
ROB: So you said you're a Maple Leaf's person but are you a Raptors first?
WIGGY: I'm not a big basketball fan. I cheer for the Raptors because they're Toronto's team.
ROB: It's all about the [inaudible 01:13] up there?
WIGGY: I'm huge Jays fan. So...
ROB: Okay, I got you. Good for you. But I've been to a Blue Jays game. That's awesome. And I can't wait till the world is back to normal and we can start and we can start going to these games and things again. But we thank you so much for taking a few minutes. It's very interesting to me because as we reach out to people, we talk to people about the speaking out movement, a lot of people are either like, yeah, I'm in like, let me know. And a lot of people are like, hey, no thank you, end of conversation. Which I get from both sides, and Wiggy you, from the get go have been very, like, whatever you guys need, let me know when, I have no problem speaking out about things that had happened, speaking out about things that happened to other people. Kind of just tell us your philosophy going into this because I know a lot of people have a lot of fear talking about things or being blackballed, which I completely understand. But kind of tell us your philosophy going into this.
WIGGY: Well, early on, when all the sisters were coming out I was kind of up in the air but telling my story. I talked to DJ Hyde, my boss, my very good friend, he owns CZW. He knew I had bad experiences with Chikara and I said, listen, other people have had these things, I want to back them up. And he was like, go for it. So I told my story. I like to think I held absolutely nothing back. Because personally, for me, I realized -- I take responsibility for this, this is one thing I tried to make very clear. I take responsibility for my actions. I made a lot of stupid choices, a lot of bad decisions, but they were mine. You know, I made them, I own them. And I was embarrassed about it, for a number of different ways. But then I kind of realized like, this is not my shame. So I have nothing to be ashamed of. This is shame for being the kind of person to do the things that he did. Are we naming names here or...?
MARISSA: Only if you want to.
ROB: Up to you, whatever you're comfortable with?
WIGGY: I mean, I already named it. It was Kobald from Chikara, Anthony Wilson. And so I kind of told my story and I realized nothing was going to happen to me. I'm much more peripherally involved in wrestling then wrestlers are and like you said, I very well understand the fear of being blackballed, or being on a show where your accuser is at, of just not being believed, which has been the case for so many years up until now. So I kind of realized, listen my involvement in wrestling, CZW they've got my back here. So nothing's going to happen to me. And I made the decision that -- I basically have the general life philosophy that if something shitty happens, you can just feel shitty about it and let it be, or you can learn from it and use it to do something good going forward. And one makes it worthwhile having happened and the other just leaves the shitty situation forever. So I decided, I'm in a position that I'm sure a lot of people wish they could be in to be able to speak up with what happened to them. So I publicly posted that anyone who has a story, but is afraid to tell it for any reason whatsoever, that I would be their voice. Send it to me, I will post it anonymously, I will make sure that people know what happened to them and they don't have to live in fear because of it.
ROB: That's amazing. And talk about that response. You mentioned not only speaking out for yourself, but speaking out for others who felt that they couldn't, which I've seen first-hand as Marissa and I move forward. Like I mentioned, a lot of people are very just like, hey, no, thank you. I understand the hesitation. So when you put that out there, you speak out for yourself. Now you're like I'm going to speak out for everybody else. What was the response you got from that?
WIGGY: Oh, it was very positive, it was very good. I very quickly received a couple messages. I saved everything. I still talk to some of the people. I have messages on Facebook and on Twitter. I got a couple early. And I posted them exactly as they sent it to me. What I did do, and I also want to be really clear about this is, I didn't post anything about anybody who hadn't already been called out. Because the sad thing is, and this is absolutely nothing against any of the people who did reach out to me, but there are people out there who will use a movement like this vindictively. And so I wanted to be very careful that I didn't falsely accuse anybody. So if somebody had already been called out, and this was merely verifying that, and just another person saying, yes. So we were all validating each other's stories. That's what I wanted to do. I didn't post anything that involved anybody else. I did have one incident where somebody had sent me a message that I believe involved like either four or six different people. I posted it. And I absolutely want to give him his props for being so kind with the way he reached out. Eric Corvis was an Indie Wrestler from New Jersey area.
ROB: Yeah. I played him [inaudible 07:38] the ring.
WIGGY: Yeah. Oh, cool. Okay. He reached out and he said, I'd like to explain. And he was so awesome. He was like, the first thing he said in the message was, I'm not messaging you to attack you. Which I mean, bang on. That is a guy who knows how to handle a situation like this. And he said, I just want to let you know that the story that you're told, that my involvement in it is false. And he explained what was wrong with the story. And he gave me people the backup his version of it. And I was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I said, I had no idea. Four of the other people in the message had already been called out, which was the reason I posted it. Like I said, I confirmed that his involvement had been elaborated, and he was innocent. And I posted very clearly, I'm like, I am so sorry. I did not mean for him to get dragged in with these other people who had already been accused. He is entirely innocent, his story has been verified. I am so sorry. And he publicly liked it was, he was so kind with the way he did everything. And he didn't get defensive, he didn't get aggressive. And that made just all the difference in the world. He didn't come at me hot with anything. And that was that was the only instance. So other than that one, which as I said, the only reason I posted it is because four people had already been accused in it. But other than that, if somebody -- and there was a couple stories I didn't post because I couldn't verify that they were true. And I like I said, I didn't want to take somebody's word for it that I didn't know from like, the next guy. Because the only way that a movement like this works is if it's 100% honest. If there's false accusations or vindictive accusations, something like this is so fragile, because it's the first time it's happened where so many people felt comfortable coming forward with abuse allegations in various forms - physical, mental, emotional, sexual. It's such a fragile thing that it takes so little to damage the credibility. And once you damage credibility, the old school thinking comes in, like, oh nah, it's bullshit, just being made up. And I wanted very much to contribute to the good that this could do. And I wanted to make sure that I wasn't the person to accidentally bring it down.
ROB: Wow!
MARISSA: That's awesome. And I'm glad that you took those extra steps to keep yourself and the survivors safe. And even on top of what you said, the reason for you not posting it was you didn't want the movement to be impacted. You could also having had no other accusations to that person have almost outed a survivor.
WIGGY: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And like that, I mean, obviously, that was like, the most important thing. And there were a couple of people who did reach out who wanted to be vague about their stories. They didn't want to take the chance of their story being recognized. And that's another key thing, especially if you're the only person who calls out a certain individual. And if it's true, and I mean, I have no reason to believe that it's not. Wanting to verify, doesn't mean I didn't believe them. It meant that I needed proof that it happened, it had nothing to do with not believing a victim. It had everything to do with I need somebody else to verify that this happened. I can't just post he said - she said. If you're the only person calling out calling an individual, it's going to pretty easy to guess who you are. And I mean, obviously, that would go against the entire point of what I was trying to do. If I'm trying to offer these people a little bit of protection, if I posted such a unique story, that outs them, well then, I mean, their story would get out there, but then at what cost?
MARISSA: Right, you could still be isolating that person anyways.
WIGGY: Yeah, for sure. I mean, and in some extreme cases, potentially putting them in danger.
MARISSA: Right. Would you be comfortable if I asked you to tell us your story? Or at least some of it?
WIGGY: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like I said earlier, when it came time to decide if I was going to tell my story or not, I decided that I made the bad decisions, I made the bad choices but it wasn't my shame. It was his shame for what he did. So I had no reason to not tell my story if it would help somebody else. So yeah, my story involves Anthony Wilson, Kobald from Chikara. Obviously, not anymore, I don't think either exists anymore. The character, not the person. I invited him on my show. Besides CZW, my long running shows Pantsless Radio. And that's going, not consecutively. But it started in, like, 10 years ago, which is crazy to think that I wasted so much my life doing this. Joking, I'm joking. But yeah, Rob is kind of like, but yeah, I understand what you mean. So I invited him to my show, he was great. We started talking after that, we really hit it off. Shortly after that, Chikara had a show up here just outside Toronto. I went to it, I met him. It was really good. This is all entirely in character. He never said a word outside of his character voice. But then we started talking outside of wrestling and stuff, I had offered to help promote them. He was part of the Batiri [14:45] and I'm very, very clear about this. The other two members of the Batiri [14:39], who are Chris Peaks, and Louis Valley, they were fantastic to me then. And they have been even kinder to me now. They are two absolute stand up guys, and I could not be more thrilled for the success that they've had recently. So, anything I talked about, they had absolutely no knowledge of. They were like, completely sideswiped when all these stories came out. But at the same time, they were New York guys and he was a Pennsylvania guy. So they kind of made their own way to Philly shows and Jersey shows and stuff themselves. They only traveled together when they were outside of that area. So we started talking more and more, and eventually, we started talking on Skype, just as him, as himself. We got to where we're talking twice a week, and we really hit it off. And there was a lot of flirting. And I offered to make them a website. I was building websites at the time too. So I made them a website. I was basically like going -- anything I could do to help them I would do. And this was 2012. September of 2012 was king of trios. And over the summer, him and I, honestly, it really felt like we were dating. Just the way we would talk when we talked, he would compliment me, we had all these like little inside jokes and it just felt like a relationship. Neither one of us said anything, but it just very much felt like a blossoming relationship. We decided that I was going to come down for trios, and I was going to stay for, I think, eight days. And I was so excited. We were going to spend all this time together. Basically, it was going to solidify our relationship. And it was great. And a little bit before that happened, I had made a joke. We were talking and I made a joke about being single. And he goes, Oh, I'm not single. And it was like being hit by a truck.
I was like, what? And he said, I'm not single. I'm sorry. I don't believe he actually said I should have told you, he just said I'm sorry. So I was like, oh, okay, well, you're treating me like your girlfriend and apparently you have another girlfriend. So this is great, thanks. But I decided, okay, I'm going to go for my trip anyways. Basically, I couldn't cancel because it was all prepaid. If I had to cancel I would have lost all the money. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to go, I've got other friends who are going to be there, so that's fine. I got there on a Tuesday night, he picked me up at the airport, which was the first time I saw him unmasked. He drove me to my hotel. He held my hand in the car the entire way there. We talked and we listened to music, and it was fantastic. He came into my hotel with me, he helped me get settled. And I mean, this is like after midnight, by the time this all happened. When he left, he literally tucked me into bed, told me a bedtime story, and was like I'll see you tomorrow.
So I think you can understand why I was still confused to this situation. Like, okay, well, if you're not single, do you do this with all of your friends? Do you go to [inaudible 18:50] place at night and tuck him into bed and kiss him on the forehead? He very much kept things confusing. The next day he came over, we hung out in my room. He showed me pictures of his wife. Yeah, he had told me he wasn't single, he had not mentioned that he was married. I mean, I literally sat there as he was showing me happy pictures of him and his wife on his phone. And I thought I was going to be sick. I told him that I didn't want to see anymore because it hurt me and he got mad at me. And this is where the gas lighting started. And I didn't even know what gas lighting was, I didn't have slightest clue. He told me basically that you know, like, I shouldn't be jealous and he's so happily married, and his wife is a lovely person and basically like, how dare I not be a supportive friend to him telling me about her, and he left. Where I was staying, I was in Easton. So it was far from where all of my other friends were, plus it was through the week, so everybody's at work anyways. So he basically when he left me, I was left alone. I had no transportation, I didn't know where I was, I wasn't familiar with the town at all. And I wasn't in an area where I could just kind of go out for a walk. So he basically isolated me and he left me there for over a day with no communication. And I very much had a breakdown. I was contacting friends, I was hysterical. I was like, oh my God he's never going to speak to me again. I'm so stupid, I should have just shut up and looked at the pictures of his wife.
And eventually, he came back about a day and a half later, he came back over at night, and acted like nothing had happened. So I was like so relieved. But I mean, the message had very clearly gotten to me. For lack of better phrasing, don't cross him or he'll just ditch me again. King of trios happened. The first night, which is great, I got to meet up with a bunch of my friends at the show. After the show, a bunch of the guys, the Chikara guys and some other people went to a bar after the show, and went drinking. I went there with a girlfriend of mine. We got there late. I started drinking. I had a few drinks in a very short period of time. Again, my decision. I was very stressed so the idea of the idea of getting a little drunk was not a bad one at that point, as far as I was concerned. I hadn't eaten because I had been so upset from everything that had been going on. So I got really drunk really quickly. And he decided to play a really fun game of let's see what the drunk girl will do. He told me to make out with my girlfriend, who I went to the bar with. I did. We were there until closing. We left. There's another girl who I casually knew, he told me I should make it with her too, on the middle of the street, which I did. And there was a guy, and he was like, you should go kiss him. And I was like, no. And he goes, come on. He's probably never had a kiss in this life, just go kiss him on the cheek. So I did. I thought I was pleasing him. He then became furious with me for my behavior. I was horrible person, I had embarrassed him, I had humiliated myself and he stormed off. And I was so wasted, I had no idea what was going on, except he was mad at me again. I had screwed up again. Because he was mad at me again. My girlfriend drove me to a hotel, I sobbed in the car the entire way. I was like, how do I fix this? How do I fix this? I was like, who can I call to fix this? Maybe if I call one of the guys they could call him and tell him how sorry I am. I got to my hotel, I slept a bit that night and we had to go.
The following day was Saturday and there was a big like Fan Fest thing for the day. So I went there, I met my friends. I felt like just absolute garbage. Just garbage. And it was strictly emotionally from how upset he was. And I kept saying with my friend, but they wanted to go over there. And I was like, I stayed very quiet. I didn't want to make him any angrier at me than he already was. Finally, near the end of the afternoon, I was over by where they were. And my friends had walked away. And he leaned over and he said, you're lucky, I'm even speaking to you right now. And which, again, that was just another shot. You know, every time something like this came up, it was like just being punched in the face. I went to the show that night. I don't remember anything. I don't remember anything but I knew the three shows. I sat there staring and I just don't know what happened. Everybody was going back to the same bar that night. I didn't go, I hung out with three of my friends. Basically, because they knew that there was something very wrong with me and they didn't want to leave me alone. So they stayed with me. And I kind of told one of them a little bit what was going on. And he was like, I think we should go. I think we should go to the bar, and we'll all go with you. We will make sure that nothing happens. And I was like, okay, because at this point, I just wanted to go to literally beg his forgiveness. We went there, we walked in, and he was sitting at a table with his wife. And we were close enough, it was a very small place, he obviously saw me. Me and my friends, we kind of went over and he introduced me to his lovely wife. Who is, I'm sure, a very, very nice woman. She's very sweet, very smart, she was just wonderful woman. And I felt like the absolute scum of the earth. So I don't really remember how the weekend ended. But I was still there. Because I was there for another couple of days after everybody was gone. And I don't really remember a lot of what happened. It was very much a roller coaster of emotion. But things have gotten good enough again on the last day that we were there.
Oh, the last day before I was leaving, he was going to drive me to the airport. He came over through the day. And again, was all like touchy, huggy, acting like my boyfriend again. And my room had a big jacuzzi in it. And he was like, I think we should get in the jacuzzi before you leave. So, next bad decision. I hop in the jacuzzi with him. And again, in my head, I'm like, oh, he does love me, he does want to be with me. And I mean, he was all but saying these things, you know. And I mean, it took me a long time to realize but he liked stringing me along. He liked knowing that I was there at his disposal. So I mean, I'm just like, head over heels again. And I have leave that night. And so he drives me to the airport, we have this tearful goodbye. And that was probably the only, I think that was the only time in my life that I have ever been truly suicidal. I walked through the airport, crying non-stop. I couldn't stop. I felt like I couldn't breathe. And I felt like my world was ending. I went into the bathroom and I looked in the mirror, and I didn't recognize myself. And I stood there looking at myself thinking, you know, I should just die. This is too much, I can't do this. I should kill myself. And probably the only reason I didn't at that time is because I had no means to. I walked back out, I went to my gate, I sat on the floor, and I just sat there with my knees pulled up, my face buried in my knees, and I just sat there sobbing until I got on the plane. I came home and I was an absolute basket case. All I did was live to talk to him, live to have any sort of connection to him. And, I mean, if he had me hooked before that trip, he absolutely owned me after it.
And I ended up going back between September and February the next year. I spent an obscene amount of money going back down to see him as often as I could. I went back down in November, hoping to be able to -- because again, he kept making it seem like come down and we'll hang out. He never, ever mentioned his wife, never brought her up, which to me, kept feeding into we're a real thing. I went back down in November, I was expecting to spend time with him. I spend an hour or so with him when I first got there. And I didn't see him again for the rest of the weekend, except at the shows. So basically, I spent a shit ton of money to go down there and to be left alone in isolation again. And like I said, so many of these things I didn't realize until after the fact that they were all a means to control me. I just thought it was what it appeared to be on the surface. I was back down in December for a pay-per-view. And his Christmas present to me was taking me to lunch with his wife.
So that was, basically, I sat there just being like, this is the nicest woman in the world. I want to be her friend. And I am the absolute scum of the earth for what is happening here. And to me, it was all my fault. It wasn't what he was doing. It wasn't he was cheating on his wife. It was, I was doing it all. I was back down in February and it was just like, a pattern of the same things. In between seeing each other, he was just this super sweet boyfriend type person. And how much he cared about me whenever we talked. He'd be like, you look so pretty, I miss you so much, and, etc. I was back down in April for Wrestle Mania weekend. I was at Wrestle Con. I was actually working at Wrestle Con. He came in for the weekend, and he stayed in my hotel with me. He stayed with me first night, he slept in my bed with me, cuddling me. The night after the show, he got a message from his wife that he was very concerned about, so he had to leave right away. So he left me again. I'm looking at Rob's face during this and like the expression on your face are just, yeah! It's basically the same expression that I have now once I realized, oh, this is what actually was happening.
I was back down in June. So it was September to June. I spent over 10 grand going down to see him. June I was there, a friend of mine -- I think it was Chikara's first pay-per-view or second pay-per-view. It was a show where the company got fake shut down. He was going to stay with me again then. We were in Philadelphia. I had a friend who stayed with me Friday and Anthony was going to stay with me Saturday night. So it was fine. Friday night I was hanging out with my friends. Saturday we went to the show, the stuffs shut down.
And just for anybody who's wondering about the whole fake Chikara closing down business. They didn't know. Anthony had left the show early to take his merch and stuff back to my hotel, but the guys who were there, they didn't know that the show was going to be shut down. By the time I got back to my hotel, he was actually texting guys from the company saying, I don't know what's going on, but apparently we're shut down. So that was just kind of a fun side note. So he was very upset, I needed to be the supportive friends to help him through this. That night was the one and only time that anything physical happened between us. And again, I made that decision. I don't pretend I didn't. He didn't force me or anything. I made the decision to sleep with him.
What had also been going on during this time, his father had passed away the previous winter. So this is like June 2013. And he was having obviously having a difficult time, which is 100% legit. He had told me that the only way he was able to cope with it was through sex. He had been seeing another woman who actually came out with her story and that was what actually spurred me to come up with mine. Because he had done the exact same things to her. He had been seeing her. She was up in New England and there were a lot of shows that he worked at through Raptor [36:32], so you would go up there for a weekend. And he would play house with her and her daughter. And he would tell me all about it. Every detail, and I had to listen because I was his best friend. And he couldn't tell anybody but me. So I had to listen to all the details of the sexual relationship that he was having with this woman. And it didn't matter how I felt hearing them. If I didn't listen, and let him tell his stories to me, then I was a bad friend. And he wouldn't be friends with me anymore. So yeah, and that actually kind of culminated with him... He told me at the time, it was absolutely an accident. But he had sent me a sexual snapshot of the woman that he was with. And I realized he wanted to make sure I knew that he didn't need me. He had somebody else. So if I stepped out of line that was it. And it's, so funny, because I mean it's so clear to me now, what he was doing. But at the time, I was just like -- I had just become such a complete and utter wreck that the only thing I thought for sure that I knew in my life was what he told me.
So after that weekend, when I did sleep with him, his wife called me. Again, I was just watching Rob's reactions. His wife called me and accused me of sleeping with her husband, which literally up until that weekend had not been true. And I was like, no. I was here with my friends. And basically he was like, you can't let her know. So I swore up and down to this unbelievably nice, trusting, sweet woman, that no, I did not do anything with her husband. It was not true, it was not true. And this actually went on. So much of this time period is really a blur for probably a number of reasons. There were a few phone calls from her, where I would just swear, like I would swear up and down to the ends of the earth that nothing had ever happened with us. Because even at this point, we weren't talking as much and things had definitely like -- I believe he basically told me he was going back to his wife. He had gotten all this stuff out of his system so he was going back to his wife. And so of course, I mean, my job was to be happy for him. And so we didn't talk too much and stuff. But even at that point, I was like so very much under his thumb. I had to protect him. I could not let her let her know what he had done. And by that time, I was just so completely and utterly ashamed that I couldn't possibly let her know that this was the kind of person that I was. And that that's what I truly believe. I'm like, I can't believe this is the kind of person I am. And I took 100% of the responsibility of everything that had happened.
It was still so raw after things had ended, that I didn't have the perspective yet to see what had really happened. And it's like my best friend, I had been telling him all this stuff through. And it actually got to the point that he said, and this was actually, part of the reason why I let things go with him was my best friend said to me look, he was like Wig he's literally driving you crazy. If you don't stop talking to him, I will stop talking to you. And that was like the shock that I needed to wake up enough to when he said he was going back to his wife to let it happen. I mean, it wasn't even like I would have tried to fight for him. I would have been on my like hands and knees groveling, begging for him to not cut me out of his life. And like I said, my best friend I love him to pieces. And I will always owe him for that. That woke me up enough that I could say, okay, I need to let this go. I need to let him go. And I guess for a very long time for years after that, I never said anything about it. Because at that point, I was -- once enough time and distance had gone by. I was just like, I can't believe how stupid I was. I was so ashamed of my behavior. I was so ashamed of how stupid I had been. It took a lot of years to go by before I realized, okay, you know what, they were my decisions. But to a certain extent, I was manipulated into them. That wasn't the kind of person I was before I met him. That's not the kind of person I've been since. And if that's the case, then there's really only one catalyst to what I did and who I became. And then, like I said to you guys, I kind of realized at a certain point that this is not my shame. I made terrible decisions but I'm not the one who should be ashamed of what I did; he is.
And like I said, when I saw that this woman told a story, I was like, I was reading this story and I was like, I know this. I know all of this. And I contacted her and I was like, he did the same thing to me. And she was like, I always suspected. And we started talking, and I told her, I was like, I knew every detail of your relationship, because he would tell me every disgusting detail he could, because it would hurt me and it would control me. And it's like, we just apologized to each other and we're like, no, we have no reason to apologize to each other. I despised this woman and she probably felt the same about me. Because he put us in direct competition for his affections. And then after we spoke, and more and more stories started coming out, we found out we were not the only two women he was doing this to, all at the same time. There were several others. Another one reached out to me on Facebook, she did not want to tell her story. But she said I want to tell my story to you. She said she needed to expel it. She needed to get it out of her head. So it couldn't hurt her anymore. And it was the same story. She said I can't go public. And I was like, I won't force you to. She goes but somebody else needs to know. And it was the same thing. He was just doing this over and over and over again. And the night of Speaking Out when this all first started happening, he emailed me and all it said was I'm sorry for everything. And I was like no, you son of a bitch, you're sorry we got busted.
ROB: Wow!
WIGGY: So that's my story. And like I said it doesn't make me look good, I don't pull any punches, I'm not trying to protect myself or make myself look like a victim. I 100% made every terrible choice I did. I wasn't necessarily in the right frame of mind when I made them but I still made them. But that also doesn't make him any less of a complete and utter scumbag, or his misbehaviour rather.
ROB: I'm going to Zack Morris this thing. First of all, thank you for saying that, timeout real quick, virtual hug I know we're not in the same room but I'll hug Cane the big red machine for you.
WIGGY: I'll hug my coke, which normally I would do because I really love my diet coke.
ROB: Yeah, but like good on you though, keeping it real, I'm very [inaudible 46:02].
WIGGY: I'm very sorry that that went on for so long. I've never actually spoken it like all out loud at one time. Oh, my God, I'm sorry. I'm putting everybody to sleep.
ROB: I apologize to Marissa every day for the same thing, please. But no, no, seriously, thank you for keeping it real. Thank you for opening up. Like what a roller coaster, I'm so glad to see you own everything, keep it real, speak out on behalf of others and really just like, I admire you for that. And it's good to see that you're doing so much better now. And you're so confident now. And the one word, and I'll throw this to Marissa because we've had a lot of talks about this, that comes to my mind is when you said everything is control. Marissa, I don't know if you want to weigh in but you know a lot about this stuff.
MARISSA: This is my expertise. So I want to actually backtrack for a second because I agree and I disagree with Rob. So thank you for speaking your truth and talking about what you endured. I mean, everything you said was heart wrenching and I just had like a million thoughts per minute. Like, I just want to give you so many hugs.
WIGGY: You know what's so funny, you pointed out a word that he said and I just focused on a word that you said, endured? At no point. Did it ever feel like something I was enduring? That was love. I wasn't enduring it, I was in love. And he loved me too. I just had to prove myself to him. I had to be the woman he wanted. We should probably leave this part out. But I don't know why, but his wife is in a wheelchair. She can stand, she can walk a little bit but she is in a wheelchair. And I always in the years since, I always thought he wanted -- this sounds horrible but he was trying to mold women into her, but who could physically do the things that he wanted. And he got big into BDSM. And his wife wanted no part of that. So that was what he was seeking with outside people. And it just always felt like he was trying to make me into his wife who he could do kinky shit with. And I realized that after the fact, but like I said to me during it, it was never something that I was enduring. I was in love. That's the way our relationship was. Funny, funny what perspective does to you.
MARISSA: I was going to say that's an interesting perspective. Because as a third party outsider who hears stories like this every day, my mind went to okay, so there was a system in place. He had his routine, where he would put girls or women in various categories, and he would do all these mechanisms and these systems to keep them where he needed them. But from your perspective, it was very different. It was genuine and loving. And so do you have the same view on it now? Do you still view it as well, he loved me but this was...
WIGGY: No. No. Enough time has passed, where I can look back and see things the way they actually were, not the way I wanted to see them. I wanted to see them in a certain way because I was in love. And despite knowing his wife and meeting her on a few occasions, in my head he had he had built this little bubble with me with this life of how we could be together. And he at no point ever said like, I'm never going to leave my wife. So by virtue of the things that he never said, he kept me hoping and feeling like there was a true possibility of him and I ended up together. Which I mean in retrospect, obviously, he was just stringing me along for everything and anything that he could get from me. At the time I was so head over heels in love with him it just seemed like, oh, well, this is just the way our relationship is. And that's actually quite terrifying in the fact because like a lot of women I have always said, oh, I would never stay in an abusive relationship. If a guy if a guy ever raised his hand at me once, that'd be it. And it's very scary to realize how easily you could have your heart played on and have your strings pulled, until you're actually making excuses for him. And I mean, he never hurt me physically but it's very scary to think that, I feel like I'm a smart, strong woman, I will not tolerate that bullshit. Except I tolerated that bullshit. It's like how did that even happen?
MARISSA: A lot of people will recognize abuse as physical abuse. If you’re not getting hit, you're not being abused. And that's a story and a narrative that I aim to change. Because most relationships don't actually hit the physical abusive part, they stay in emotional, psychological, and verbal, because those are the easiest to prey upon and the easiest to hide. And I truly believe that emotional abuse of all abuse is probably one of the absolute worst, because like you said, they prey upon your emotions, they manipulate you into thinking things are okay, that aren't okay, they make you believe them and then they control your actions like a puppet. So the part that I wanted to backtrack on and say that I disagreed with Rob on, was when he said, I'm glad that you owned up to everything. And on one hand, I'm glad that you admit everything that happened and see it for that perspective, but on the other hand, doing something under coercion is still not your fault. So even if he didn't force himself on you, he coerced you over the course of a year, and he was manipulating you and changing your brain and rewiring your biology. It's insane the systematic changes that people can make, just using words and actions on you. And so, to one point, yes, like you did agree to sleep with him. Yes, you did book those tickets and go see him and be that person in his life. But on the other hand, he was basically a puppet master, puppeteering your moves and keeping you in a box so that he could play with you when he wanted. It's awful.
WIGGY: 100% 100%. And it's like he knew my weaknesses, he knew my insecurities. He made me feel like everything that I was self-conscious about didn't matter but they only didn't matter to him. Anybody else, that's all they would see and they wouldn't want me.
MARISSA: That's such a horrible play. That's such like a low blow.
WIGGY: It really is. I've had weight issues for most of my adult life, and I fluctuated like, up and down. And at that point, I was bigger than I wanted to be. And he made it very clear, he didn't mind but everybody else would. He thought I was still beautiful, but nobody else would.
MARISSA: You're lucky I love you because nobody else will.
WIGGY: Exactly, and it's funny, because I will admit this really, I've never really completely understood the impact of emotional abuse up until that point in my life. And it always seemed like, well, I don't get it, how bad could it really be? But looking back, I realized it affected every single aspect of my life. It affected my friendships to the point like I said, my best friend said if you don't end things with him, I will stop talking to you. It affected my work life because I was always so stressed and worrying, and it's like, if he messaged me, I had to make sure I was available. My mom, who was my best friend she knew what was going on. Not by what I told her but what she observed in me. And I've lied to her so many times that there is nothing going on between us. And that's probably what I hated myself the most for. But it's like the perspective, from now being able to look back, his bullshit touched every single part of my life. And so I get it. I really get it now, just how deep emotional manipulation and abuse, it affects you like nothing else.
MARISSA: And it affects you to the core too. I mean, like I said it actually shifts your biology. Our brains they're a muscle, they move and they function and different parts will be stimulated and whatever. And when you are enduring or when you have endured emotional abuse, it actually changes the amount that -- your brain releases neurotransmitters like dopamine and serotonin, which will impact your happiness levels on a day to day basis. Like it really impacts your whole life. It impacts weight gain and weight loss. It impacts stress levels in cortisol, it impacts everything and we don't recognize it until it's too late. I'm happy, I'm so happy that you had that friend that kind of gave you that push, that nudge that was like, if you don't stop, I can't be a part of this. Was that like the make or break for you?
WIGGY: Oh 100%. 100%. He was my rock. He still is. I mean, at the time, he'd been my best friend for seven years. And it's 16 years now. But yeah, that was just like... The idea of losing him that was my final line in the sand. I can't do that. I cannot do that. And I mean, granted, it was kind of helped along by his decision shortly afterwards, or right around the same time, I don't even remember honestly, that he was going back to his wife. But like I said, at the same time had he not told me that I would have been begging, crawling after him trying to get him to not cut me out of his life. So it really like... He all but single-handedly pulled me out of that situation.
MARISSA: It's amazing to have a friend like that. I'm going to throw it back to Rob because I totally hijacked this interview.
ROB: Oh, no Marissa you're the best.
WIGGY: You are.
ROB: She is legit, real deal. But I wanted to ask you this. In wrestling, taking it back to just the general world of wrestling again and kudos to you for like using your platform to speak your truth, turn a negative into a positive, give others the platform as we've seen in recent weeks. I mean, let's be real wrestling, everyone has a name and everyone has a wrestling name. Everyone has a persona and all that, I'm all about that for the entertainment value. And that's what's it's all about smiles on faces, and entertainment for the fans and people accomplishing their dreams and whatnot. But like I said, let's be real people have personas. And I've learned the hard way, people hide behind charities. Yeah, it's crazy people. There's con men and there's people who just completely -- like who I've confided in friend, mentor or whatever, and just stuff comes out. And you're just like, you never should have been here. You never should have been around people, never should have been there. If there's ego, people hide behind charities, you see it more and more. And it kills me, it kills me. Because I've been invested in wrestling over the past year when I was going through my own stuff, and the wrestlers, the talent, the promoters have all been there for me. And then I'm very appreciative of that. But you know, the more you get behind the curtain, the more the negative stuff comes along with it. And that's not everywhere. There's a lot of really, really great people that I hold in high regard and hopefully they don't break my heart. But it's been just crazy, very eye opening and I think true colors always come out. So moving forward, what can you say to speak to that about, how we can make this business better, you know, starting on the independent level, and moving forward.
WIGGY: I mean, the simplest thing which is probably the hardest, is to listen to somebody when they come forward. Listen without bias. Listen and instead of assuming right off the bat they're lying, give them the benefit of the doubt. So many people don't come forward, because -- it's got to be the number one reason pretty much across the board, they don't think they're going to be believed. And until there is, like, a consensus throughout the sport, throughout the community, that we will listen to you, we will not judge you, we will give you the opportunity to prove what you're saying is true. Until that is there, things really aren't going to change. The fact of the matter is, you can't just come forward and say, so and so did this. You do have to be able to prove it, because like I said, it's very unfortunate but it does happen, that people use things like this for vindictive means. And that's just a sad fact. But that doesn't mean we can't work around that fact. Be open, listen to people, give them the benefit of the doubt, give them the time to prove that what they're saying is true. But don't just brush away an accusation or a story, because it's a friend of yours, or because it's somebody you're a fan of, or because it's somebody you just don't want to believe that about. Because, like you said, that the fact of the matter, and I mean, this goes from WWE all the way down to Schleps like us. There's Wiggy and then there's Debbie. And you might think, you know one. You know one, that doesn't necessarily mean you know the other. There's Rob, and then there's Rob.
ROB: Pretty much. Yea, you hit that one on the head.
WIGGY: You know what people put out there. Like I said, right from WWE all the way down, if you know what people put out there, that doesn't necessarily mean you know who they are. And it doesn't matter what your job is. There's shitty people in all aspects of life unfortunately. And just because somebody is in a position that you like, you respect, you're a fan of, doesn't mean that it's not possible. And I mean, for so long, I think that's been part of the problem. It's like, well, you're on my TV, you couldn't possibly be a bad person. Oh, okay because it's not like a television or movie star has ever done anything back. So much of it, I think, is just listening, and being willing to believe. I mean, not believe blindly, for sure but giving people the opportunity. Letting them feel safe enough to come forward. And I very much understand why so many people don't feel safe enough for a number of different reasons. But that, I think, is the one thing that needs to change. People in positions of power need to be willing to listen when someone comes to them and says, listen, this has been going on. And it shouldn't matter if they're your friend, it shouldn't matter if they're your top draw, it shouldn't matter how big your social media following is. Any shitty person can be all of those things. We need to as a community, we need to accept that these terrible things happen. I think the first step is letting -- I don't like using the word victims because I feel like it's almost putting down. They're survivors, I like that word much better. Survivors of these things, they need to know that there will be people there who believe them, who won't judge them and who will accept them. Despite these things having happened. And I really think that's the first thing that needs to occur.
MARISSA: Rob, are you okay? You're kind of grimacing,
ROB: No, I can't take much more. This Wrestling World so crazy, it's been so great to me. But as you see, there's a lot of...
WIGGY: Well, exactly like I feel very much the same way.
ROB: You know it better than I do. Yeah. You know it better than me, I'm still very new to this. Like, it's a circus. It really is.
WIGGY: It is. I started Pantsless Radio doing wrestling stuff in February of 2010. My co-host at the time was One Pineapple Pea, Sugar Dunker.
ROB: Oh, really?
WIGGY: Yeah. Sugar and I go way back. I have so many interviews, like 10 years of interviews and stuff, and I love this. I have done this -- I have been very, very little money off of it. I do it because I have come across some really good people. Honest, genuine people. And if I can get them some publicity, if I can get people knowing them a little better, get some eyes on them, that can maybe somehow advance their career or their dream, or you know, anything. Like, I want to do it. Like, I love wrestling. I've loved it since I was a little girl. And just being able to be involved in any way, it's amazing to me, it's absolutely amazing to me, but at the same time, it's sad. It makes me really sad. But something like this, like speaking out, it makes me so happy because it gives me hope that maybe one day, this community of all of us can be a positive place. That it can be better, that we can make it better. And that gives me a lot of hope for the future. Whether it ever happens or not.
ROB: Very well said, very well said Wiggy. It's crazy but I get what you're saying. Like I posted something yesterday, let's do better for some of these kids that want to be wrestlers. Let's be better for the people that are doing it now moving forward, I think we can all do that. I think like Marissa always says, having a conversation is a great place to start. And we know there's some organizations coming about, guys, let's get some background checks going. Let's do our homework, let's have the conversations. And Wiggy before we get out here, just last one for me.
Let's get that shameless promo. Tell everyone where they can follow you on social, all that good stuff. And honestly, if they want to reach out to you, and they have something they want to say, and they want you to be the voice.
WIGGY: Oh, yeah. 100%, absolutely. Just because it's not still June, it doesn't mean that you can't still speak out with your stories. And if you need a voice to do that for you, well, I am a loud one with a Canadian accent. But I will happily, happily do that for you. I'm on Twitter at Wiggygator. I used to do a show with a weekly wrestling podcast and my co- host used make fun of the way I spelled my Twitter name. Because it's very sing-song like. So it's W-I-G-G-Y-G-A-T-O-R.
ROB: Yeah, it is.
WIGGY: Like Rob's head is kind of bopping along too. I'm on Instagram at the same, you can find me on Facebook Wiggy Wigowski, my 100% real name. If you have anything, I'm very happy to talk about this stuff. I think it needs to be talked about more often, for too many years people were told to shut up. And the more people talking about it now the better. And like if you have a story that you need to get off your chest, even if you don't want it to be public, if you just need to get something out of your head, so it stops having that power over you, please 100% hit me up. My email is pantslessradio@gmail.com. Pants with an S, not pant less because that's just wrong on so many levels. And just keep speaking out when you feel you're able to, find somebody who will do it for you if you can't, and let's just get rid of those people. We have managed to exile so very many of them who were some of the worst offenders but there's countless more out there. And I have a four year old little nephew who loves wrestling and I want independent wrestling to be a place where I can take him to his show. He can go crazy over everything that's happening and I don't have to worry about the people he's going to meet, the people he's going to be exposed to, to one day having to tell him why he can't see his favorite wrestler anymore. Let's think of it that way and let's just make it better.
ROB: Wow! That very well said I think that's a perfect spot to end it on. Thank you so much Wiggy for coming on, opening up, keeping it real, turning a negative into a positive, and you really are an asset to this business. Thank you so much for taking the time and stay safe out there. Continued success moving forward. Alright.
WIGGY: Thank you so much. Anytime! Anything I can, like I told you I told you in that first message, I am so in and anything I could do to help this movement you guys know where to find me? In Canada, where it's not snowing Marissa.
ROB: Yeah, there it is.
MARISSA: Don't remind me.
ROB: Alright, guys, but like we always say here on the DCP Breaking through our Silence Connection, I want you to stay safe. Stay positive. Take care of each other. We out, peace!
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Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to the healing from emotional abuse philosophy. I'm so excited today to bring on Jennifer. She is the host of a podcast called Living With An Invisible Learning Challenge. She's also a survivor of sexual assault and abuse from Southern California. And she's here today because she wants to support other survivors of sexual abuse and be able to speak for people with learning challenges who are affected by sexual assault. Her mission is to support those who might be afraid to speak out for themselves and fear the consequences and retaliation that they may face. Thank you so much for being here. Jennifer. I'm excited to chat with you today.
Jennifer: I'm excited to do this, too.
Marissa: So first and foremost, would you feel comfortable telling us your story?
Jennifer: Yes, I do. So my story is that I'm a survivor of sexual abuse. Though every survivor story and journey to healing is different. I think we'd all agree it's difficult. It's probably the hardest thing we'll ever go through. But what I know for certain is my journey has made me who I am today. The abuse began when I was about six and ended when I was 12 and disclosed. My cousin was my abuser. He was two years older than me. When it began, I was too young to understand what was happening and when I eventually disclosed, I had no idea what it would do to the rest of my family, or how my life would change. Let me stop here to provide some context first, because my growing up was different. My cousin's family and mine were very close. We lived near each other and my parents and my aunt work together. I have a brother and my cousin had just one sister then. On top of that, we were home schooled at the place where my parents and Aunt worked. Our grandmother was our primary caretaker, and my parents and Aunt would take turns teaching us our classes throughout the work day. We were super close, and were always together. And even after my cousin's family moved to the east coast, my brother and I learned to visit them nine or 10 times in those first years. One more piece of information is relevant for context. I have a learning challenge. I'm not neuro-typical, I didn't know that during the abuse. But in my sophomore year at college, I was diagnosed with NLD, which stands for nonverbal learning disability, it is something I was born with. I'll say more about that later. So about the abuse. I'm not sure if this exactly counts as sexual abuse. But the abuse began with my cousin taking me into a closet and ping me when I was about six years old. Eventually, he began to sexually abused me. I think I was about eight years old the first time, I didn't know what it was at the time. And I don't know how he knew anything about sex. I definitely didn't. But I trusted him because he was my cousin. The age difference made me feel like he had power over me and I was powerless. Because we spent our days together, regular access was easy. And even after they moved away, because we made so many frequent trips to see them the abuse continued at their house. It continued, and I got older, I started to have strong feelings that this was really wrong. The very last time it happened was when my cousin came to California to visit us. He had been giving his parents a lot of grief and my mom wanted to help my aunt out. My mom thought that maybe if he came to visit us in California, it would help. Of course, she didn't know anything at the time about the abuse. I felt scared about the idea of him coming. During that visit, He abused me three more times. His abuse had started with picking on me, and over the years went from that to intercourse, and the last time he tried to put his penis in my bottom. It hurts so badly that I stopped by yelling stop. I decided that was going to be the last time. I asked him what would happen if I told anyone, he said that we would get into trouble. But I knew he was only one that would get into trouble. I don't know why I didn't disclose to my parents sooner, probably because it took a long time before I really understood what was happening. But looking back at it, now, knowing what I know about people with NLD, I think that also influenced it. I was too naive and trusting. People with NLD are prone to being so. I always believed what I was told, and never questioned anyone older than me. Even at 24, I still sometimes struggle thinking that anyone would ever lie to me or try to deceive me. I still tend to believe whatever someone tells me.
I remember vividly the day I disclosed to my mother. It was a Saturday morning, my cousin was still visiting us on that trip. My mom was getting ready for the day and I told her I needed to talk to her. I felt nervous about telling her. When I got up the courage to disclose, I said something like mom, he is putting his pee-pee in my pee-pee. Clearly I didn't even have the words. She was shocked. At first she couldn't believe that, because we hadn't had the talk about sex yet. So she grabbed one of those facts of life books with some very basic pictures, and asked me to describe and show her what I meant by what I said. I showed her and then she completely lost it. She broke down sobbing reassuring, that she believed me and repeatedly saying, “How could this have happened? I'm so sorry. I failed you.” She immediately called my dad and told him to come home. Right away. It was urgent. She met him in the driveway and told him what I had just disclosed.
There was a whole cascade of events that have followed my disclosure. My aunt flew out. My grandparents got involved. A detective was called to take a report, Child Protective Services came, I had a physical exam, which was frightening and painful. There were lots of tears all around, my cousin and Aunt flew back east and we were left figuring out what to do. We decided not to press charges at that time since my cousin no longer lived near us.
I began therapy which I continued for five years. I had triggers all through high school, but it lessened as I learned more coping skills in therapy. Therapy helped a lot. I learned several really valuable coping skills like lucid dreaming, using affirmations to make myself feel safe and journaling, to name a few. Meanwhile, things between our families were getting very bad. The other side was minimizing what happened, calling it merely show ant tell. They did not believe it had gone as far as it had. They felt my cousin and I were equally responsible. Things got very ugly with my aunt and uncle and grandfather pushing hard for us to forgive, and blaming, shaming and faulting us when we weren't ready. How could we be no acknowledgment of what happened from my cousin or his family had ever been given. I don't think it ever will. Our two families are estranged to this day. It was sometime after I had disclosed that we learned that there had been another incident of my cousin abusing another cousin. That cousin's parents decided to press charges. My family and I even flew out to the east coast to sit in the courtroom to support her. It was a difficult but powerful experience. And the judge found my cousin guilty and he was put on probation.
He was required to go into counseling and he was forbidden to have any contact with the other family. There were more parts to his sentencing, but I don't remember them all. When I learned about the other girl and their families decisions to press charges, I decided that I want to press charges too. I told my parents and I had their full support. We began that process. We had a hearing in front of the judge. We would have been gone to trial. But in the end the outcome would not have been any different since we were both minors. Originally, I thought I wanted to go to trial because not doing so felt like the abuse would be minimized. But then I knew what that was like for my other cousin, the other girl, he abused. And I decided we'd all had gone through enough. Two traumas really, the sexual abuse and the breakup of our families. I was able to present a victim impact statement, as did several other family members who were with me. I was the last one to read mine. And in doing so I was able to describe how the abuse has affected my life and my family.
Marissa: Thank you so much for sharing all that. I'm so sorry for what you went through. How are you feeling now, after talking about it?
Jennifer: Well, I feel much better. Because each time I share it with somebody, I feel like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders. And it gets easier to say it. So, it does get easier to share it each time.
Marissa: Thank you. I definitely agree with that. I think that the more you talk about it, the more it just kind of flows. The less impact it has on you. So you wrote that just to be prepared. Right? So you wrote your story, which was great. Thank you so much for sharing all that. I'm so sorry for what you experienced in the actual abuse, but then even, especially the aftermath with your family. How do you feel now having gone through that process? Did it make you feel better at the time and now?
Jennifer: Yeah, going through the process with the hearing and the judge? It did make me feel better, because it made me feel like my cousin, I guess you could say, got punished for what he did. And the judge made me feel hurt because I remember during that time when I was 12, I felt like really nobody except for my immediate family believed me and believed my story. And I remember trying to understand why is all this happening. And just trying to wrap my head around all the family drama and interactions. And just trying to understand what was going on. And it was almost like it was kinda a tornado. And just like, what is happening around me?
Marissa: Totally understand. It's just very chaotic. Do you think having an invisible learning challenge, amplified the abuse or made the chaos of everything even worse?
Jennifer: So yes, I do think nonverbal learning disability, the acronym is NLD and NVLD played a part, which I learned about in my sophomore year of college. That's when I was diagnosed, I think it played a part because those people tend to be like I said, in my story, they tend to be more naive and trusting of people. And that's because they tend to have less life experience. And they tend to be more trusting even strangers. And because of them trying to catch up on the life experience that usually affects their trust issues. And even with the trauma that has made my trust issues more amplified, you can say,
Marissa: That makes a really good point, you made a really good point. I think another reason people with NLD are victimized more often because of the stigma and mental health. Right? So when when you have a mental health or a learning challenge, it's less likely that people like professionals will believe you. Or even, just anyone will believe you and you said that's kind of what you experienced. Right?
Jennifer: Right. Exactly. Less people will believe you when you just have a story. You have really no evidence to go with your it's just a he said she said thing. And really because also with my learning challenge, I don't like the word learning disability, So I use challenge instead, is not on the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, which is a manual that helps people get accommodations. Because it's not on there People think you're making something up, which is not true.
Marissa: And even if the diagnosis is in the DSM, right, people will still kind of think you're making it up because there's a stigma attached to mental health and learning challenges. And I think that's disgusting. That's something that I want to focus on. So thank you for bringing that up. So what coping skills aside from therapy did you use to help you heal from your abuse?
Jennifer: So the other coping skills I used is, obviously I got a dog. That was the whole reason we got Truffles. She's a Dijon, Shishu mix. We got her, actually 10, actually going on 11 years ago. And I never had a dog growing up so this was the first animal we had our pet in the house. And they kind of proposed idea to me, and they were like, do you want to get a pet? I'm like, What kind of question is that, of course, I want to get a pet.
Marissa: Do I have a pulse. Of course, I want a pet.
Jennifer: Yeah. And at first, we were wanting a cat because we travel a lot. But we wanted to add like a dog, we started looking at dogs. And then with Truffles, we got the opposite. Because she does act like a cat, she can jump really high, she loves to lay on our couch cushions like cats do. My dad has a pickup truck. And if it's parked by the curb, she can jump into the passenger seat without any help. So she has springs on her legs. And other coping skills would be I got into long distance running in high school and that was kind of a way for me to just get rid of stress. And sometimes when I was running, I would imagine my cousin's face and just kind of punch at his face to let off anger. That kind of worked. And I was kind of imagining like I was running towards my freedom of being free of all the emotions and just letting them go. And travel, my family did world traveling to at least one new country during the summertime and during non school breaks. That started when I was six years old, and when my brother was 11 years old. And it was kind of an escape for me from the sexual abuse that I experienced. Because when we were away from the family, I was away from my cousin. And the other coping skill I used to use was overeating. I did that in high school and college but I don't do that anymore. I used to use that to absorb emotions. And I got over that habit by realizing what I was doing and I decided to stop doing that. And try to express my emotions more by talking about them to my friends, my close friends, and my family.
Marissa: So I want to go back to one of the things that you said before, when you were talking about your story was that you use journaling, and that journaling really helped you. Journaling also really helped me so would you mind maybe talking about some of the things that you write about when you're journaling?
Jennifer: Sure. So yeah, one of the things I would talk about is, I would often like journal the dreams that I would have, which kind of helped get them out of my mind, because I found if they were still, in my mind, I would keep thinking about them. And so I kind of created a dream journal that I would use. I don't use it anymore, because I found when I was able to lucid dream, As soon as I mastered it, I did it on autopilot, basically. And I didn't need to journal about the dreams anymore.
Marissa: That's awesome. And you learned how to lucid dream from therapy?
Jennifer: Yes, I did. Very first therapist taught me that.
Marissa: That's awesome. That's a great technique. I wish I knew how to teach people how to do that.
Jennifer: Yeah, I wish I did too, because it's really helpful.
Marissa: Awesome. So tell me about what you're doing now. Tell me about your full time job.
Jennifer: So yeah, I work with my mom, who is a minister. She's been a minister for more than 40 years. She was ordained when she was 23. So near my age. And she is a unity minister in unity. It's Christian based, but it's not very religious. It's more spiritual for people who don't know what unity is. And the church is called the Unity Center. If people want to look it up. Basically what I do there is I'm an assistant for her, but I also am the manager of the website and the app that they have and her podcast that I helped with. And that was easier to do because I have my own podcast. The tech stuff I find so easy because I'm a millennial. So that helps. Oh, and I am our COVID janitor for our small in-person services that we do virtually on Sundays, Which is just our musical band, and my mom, and the staff, which is just me and my parents. So I just clean up after us when everybody leaves so that it's sanitized.
Marissa: So having grown up with a parent, who's a minister, do you use the scripture as any way to heal from abuse?
Jennifer: That's a good question. Yes, I definitely do use the faith that we have to help healing with abuse, I tend to meditate and actually, I'm wearing prayer beads. So that helps with healing. And I try to meditate a little bit also and when I exercise, I find that meditative because sometimes I can't sit very still. So sometimes I use more of a moving meditation as a coping skill.
Marissa: Awesome, guided meditation for healing and guided meditation for overcoming abuse are really really common tools. Is there any resource specifically you use for meditation? Are you just what do you do?
Jennifer: Usually, I just use deep breathing, or I can listen to one of the meditations that my mom has come up with, she has a lot of them on YouTube. She has her own YouTube channel for the church, so I can listen to the ones that she has on there.
Marissa: Awesome. Is there any particular part of the Scripture any passage that identifies with you or that, that you feel like has comforted you? You can say no, if you haven’t.
Jennifer: I would say something that I do identify with would be the saying that we have many paths, that many paths meaning many religions that exist in the world. And, you know, there's many gods that those religions have. And people follow all of them differently. I'm paraphrasing it. But that's basically what it means. And I like it because it's very welcoming. And, in Unity, we were very non judgmental of the past religion that you used, you can still practice it when you come to a Unity Church, and you can be who you are.
Marissa: That's beautiful. And I think that non judgment and that complete acceptance is really helpful for people, especially people who have endured abuse. I know that from speaking to people who are devout, devout Christians, that they see a lot of hesitation, with feeling comfortable leaving their abuser because of the way that they read and understand and comprehend the different scripture. So I think that being accepting and loving and knowing that people come from different backgrounds is really important. So thank you and your mom and Unity for doing that. Do you have a piece of advice for survivors of sexual assault with NLD?
Jennifer: Yes, I do. I think the ones who have NLD or other invisible learning challenges like autism or ADHD, or Asperger's, that they should be willing to speak up for themselves.
That if they've been abused sexually, or emotionally or physically in other ways that they should speak up for themselves and be able to say, “Hey, this happened to me, and it wasn't right,” and that they need to advocate for what they need. And they need to basically spread the word to others and be like, no, like the #MeToo movement. This is what I experienced, and I want to help others who are like me,
Marissa: I love that it's forming a community within a community and the sexual assault survivor community, we need to be better at advocating for people with NLD and invisible learning challenges, because they are a part of our community, people from all walks of life who have experienced sexual assault, and we need to be more inclusive and believe survivors. So thank you so much, Jennifer, for that piece of advice and for coming on the show and speaking out for survivors of abuse with invisible learning challenges and NLD because it's so commonplace in that community.
Jennifer: Thank you for having me. And thank you for letting me tell my story and talk about who I am.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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INTRO: How can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute. Over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don't talk about it enough. Healing from emotional abuse isn't a band-aid situation, but it doesn't have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the world have been impacted by their narcissist, yours doesn't have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life your host and founder of the Healing from Emotional Abuse Philosophy Marissa F Cohen.
MARISSA: Overcoming narcissism and healing from emotional abuse is so important to your mental health and to living the life of freedom, confidence and peace. Today, we're talking with Brittani Duvall about child abuse and how it impacts your mental health for the rest of your life. But before we start, I want to brainstorm ways that I can help ease your healing journey. Imagine that you're standing on a cliff. And on the other side of a deep canyon is the life that you dream of. A partner who connects with you, supports you and empowers you and makes you laugh and smile. A life filled with freedom, confidence and peace. I've been where you are now, standing on the edge, dreaming of that life. And I've built the bridge between where you are now and that dream that seems so far away. Let me walk you across the bridge and literally hand you the life of your dreams. It's possible! I've walked this path with thousands of other survivors who now live a free, confident and peaceful life. Let's walk this path together. Don't waste any more time feeling lonely, worthless or exhausted. Schedule a call with me today at ScheduleACallWithMarissa.com - M-A-R-I-S-S-A.
Welcome back to Healing from Emotional Abuse. Today we have an amazing guest, Brittany Duvall. She's a spiritual truth advisor, a queen of authentic vulnerability and a visionary entrepreneur who lovingly guides and encourages women to their truth from mental health shame, through her Rooted In Truth method. She's a survivor, a mother to a beautiful toddler daughter, and the wife of an amazing husband. She's the creator of the event - Let's Talk About It Navigating to Freedom and Truth from Mental Health, Shame and Stigma for Business and Life. Welcome on Brittany! Thank you so much. I'm so happy to have you today.
BRITTANY: I'm so happy to be here. So thank you so much.
MARISSA: Of course. So before we get really started, tell us about yourself.
BRITTANY: Oh goodness, that's a heavy question. So I live in Arizona, I like she said, I'm a wife and I have a toddler daughter, her name is Annabelle. So I actually have a background in graphic design. And that was like, what I feel is my healing up until now. And so with that, I had my daughter, I struggled with postpartum depression and then I was like, okay, I can't go back into the workforce. It was just way too overwhelming for me. And so my husband supported me in that. And so I started my freelance design business, which I still do that on the side. But it's kind of like, slowly gone away in a sense, because I lost my brother about a year ago to suicide. And so with that, it really was kind of like a wake-up call for me of like, okay, we all struggle with our mental health. And we all are in our own stuckness with COVID and everything else. So I really wanted to take a stand and support people with where they're at and how they can bridge the gap between where they are and where they want to be. And so that's where I've been working on launching my coaching business currently.
MARISSA: Thank you for sharing that. I'm so sorry about what you went through with your family. So would you mind telling us your story of survival, like what you went through and how you got here?
BRITTANY: When I was in sixth grade, it was a lot of trauma that I experienced, where I was sexually abused, particularly molested. And so with that, it happened more than once. And it really took everything out of me. Like I felt like I died inside. I struggled a lot with that and then it wasn't until my freshman year of high school that I eventually told my family of what happened. And so I held it in for that long and during that time, I remember being in my room and literally just sobbing by myself. I would close the door and while this was going on, my parents were fighting and having their own issues. So it was just kind of like I was alone. And so my way of coping was coloring in my room, it was singing, it was dancing, it was listening to music. And every time my mom would come in, I would literally wipe my tears and pretend that everything was okay when it really wasn't. And then once I finally told my family, it was just like another layer of experiencing different emotions, because it was about them and not about me. It was like, oh well, why don't you tell me sooner? Or oh, that happened to me too. Or, oh how did I not see this or know about it? And that's, I think the initial response that a lot of people have, is they internalize it and make it about them, instead of actually listening to the survivor of what they experienced. So that was another layer of like, okay, not feeling seen and heard again, for holding it in for that long, and then having to tell and gaining the courage to tell. And then still not feeling seen and heard. And so walking through that even more, by this time, I was starting to gain into the dating world. And so in the dating world, I dated a lot of people who were addicts, who were struggling with their own stuff. And I began to see myself as naturally taking care of them because I understood what it felt like to be in that situation. And so I had my own experience, even with them, like emotional abuse because there was an addict who cheated on me and did all the other things. I've had somebody tell me that I was crazy, I had people tell me to gain a backbone. So there were lots of different experiences that I had in the dating world. And then once I got to college, just something snapped. I was just like, I can't do this anymore. I was even considering taking my own life. I had all the thoughts and that's when I went into a mental health hospital for eight days. And in there, there was just so much more coming out of me that I didn't even know because you're in a free state, so you forget everything. And so more stuff began to come up, that I didn't even know that actually happened in the initial trauma that I had. And so I had to walk through more. And then it came to gaining more courage of, okay, I want to actually do something about this now. So that's when I decided to get a restraining order on the person who molested me and then started to go through my process of court. And I basically got everything. And it was basically to the time, like ready to go to court. And I think this is so often what happens is, then you're like, oh, I have to actually see that person when I go to court. And so everything just shut down. And I was like, nope, I can't do this anymore. And so I cancelled everything out. I think over time, in my experience of mental health and all of the things, the mental health system helped me up until a certain point. And that point was when I had my daughter, and I was like, okay, I know I need more now. I'm ready for more, I need more, this isn't supporting me anymore. And so that's when I stepped into the personal development coaching world. And then like a whole other level of like, basically like a spiritual awakening. I'm sure lots of people are talking about it now that you understand what that means. But essentially, it's like a whole, like, your life in front of your eyes and you're seeing your life for what it is. And I started to pick a part of like, where things were coming from, and what my true truth was. And so that's basically where I got to really look at was this somebody telling me what I am? Or is this what I actually believe? And so I got to really dive deep into that. And that's what's really been my transformation and healing is like, pulling apart of the things that people have put on me in the outside world, and what I actually believe is true for me. So, yeah, that's where like, my whole transformation has really lied.
MARISSA: That's an incredible journey. I mean, you were so young when it started. Do you mind if I go back to that a little bit? So when you were experiencing it, was there ever any education or anything about what sexual abuse is in your past, in school and anything to give you the verbiage or to express what was happening to you?
BRITTANY: No. I just knew it wasn't okay. It felt like, I just have this gift of knowing and inside, I knew it was not okay. I didn't know how to express it, I didn't know how to walk through it. I just knew it wasn't okay. And so, it was interesting, because honestly, there's one piece that I can't remember. And it's I don't know what got me and compelled me to ask my mom to see a counselor. But something inside of me asked to see a counselor. I think, partly, my dad has his own mental health as well. So I've seen him in his own mental health. And he had seen a counselor and stuff. So it was like, I knew it was okay to see a counselor through my dad, but I just, I don't know, something compelled me to ask. And so it was through the counselor that she supported me into realizing, oh, and I think what I remember most that literally just scared the shit out of me, if you will, was when she was like, oh we need to report this. And I was like, oh wait, no, no, I don't want that. I'm just here to get support. And so I felt like everything like turning inside of me of like, wait you have to report this. And I think that's another scary piece of walking through, especially as young as I was, because I was just so confused. So it was through the counselor that I gained education, and then she was the one that really supported me in the talks that I got to have with both my mom and dad of telling them.
MARISSA: I'm glad you had that as an outlet, because a lot of people don't know that they can go to counselors or don't have that ability. So I think that that's amazing that you were able to get that much support even though it was scary, that she's a mandatory reporter. I have my own kind of yes and no support of that process. But do you mind telling us about the court process, I know that you didn't eventually go through with it. But on average sexual abuse cases take about four years to get from initial report to court?
BRITTANY: Yeah, I don't feel like... It didn't take that long, I think. I don't know if it's because of like, the person who did it admitted it very quickly, so it didn't really take that long. So it was several times of going into this facility where the detective was. And it didn't even feel good, just going, you know, your walk. And it was literally like I felt like it was amazed to get into the room. We had, I think, two different meetings in this particular room where we were on a phone call, it was like those old, well, it's not a super old fashion, but an old enough fashioned phone in the room and it's all connected to wires and listening and all this stuff. And it was just like, the things that you see on TV that you never thought you would even be in a situation that you would experience that. I felt very numb through the whole process. It was just like I numbed myself out. Because I knew that I wanted to do this for myself. But then I was also scared of all the repercussions of what could happen. I can't even remember the full timeline, but it was just literally in a matter of a few months that everything was like... The detective finally called me and he was like, well, we got everything and like, we sat down and we talked about it. And it was just like you know you're going to have to see him, you're going to have to point him out in court and you know you're going to have to do all these things. And he's like, you know, this is where a lot of people do back out. And so, I tried to be strong, and I really, really contemplated it for a while, I asked for some time to think about it. And it was going back and forth, back and forth. And it made me sick, because I was just like, I don't know if I can do this. And I think because it was still early on enough in my journey of healing that because I had just gotten out of a mental health hospital and literally went straight into it. But I was just like too soon for me. And I was like, I don't think I'm ready.
MARISSA: I feel that it is good that the perpetrator admitted it right off the bat. That alone is a one in a million situation. Did you feel a sense of closure when that happened? Or did that make you feel worse?
BRITTANY: So my reasoning, because everybody has a reasoning for why they were going through the process too. In my personal reasoning, and I know this is like, the goodness of my heart and not -- it wasn't out of anger, it wasn't out of hate or anything, which I know a lot of people have when they experience that. But for me, it was like, no, I wanted to go to court because I just wanted him to get help. Because I knew it happened to him too. And so usually, that's the cycle. And so like, for me, out of the goodness of my heart, I just wanted to go to court because I knew no matter what, on the outside world, that he wouldn't get help. So it's like wanting to go to court, so that it was kind of like a mandated thing that he would get help and get the help that he needed, so that he could not continue to create that cycle. I didn't want him to go to jail. I just wanted him to get help, and I wanted him to get better.
MARISSA: That makes a lot of sense. I mean, it was a person that you had relationship with. And so that's a person that you have emotions towards. It makes sense. This might be a dumb question, but as an adult, who was a child that went through this process, would you recommend to parents that they push for the same thing? Would you as an adult, recommend that other adults who have children who have gone through something similar, would you encourage them to pursue the legal process?
BRITTANY: I would say it depends on your intentions. That is my personal truth. Because obviously, if you're coming from a place of anger and hate, then that's on you. But if you're coming from a place of love and compassion, of understanding that it is an actual real cycle that people have experienced, then you know that there's goodness in intentions in your heart, and it's coming from a good place. Obviously, yes, it is the most horrific thing out there. And I would never wish it on anybody. Years later, I actually found out it happened to my brother too. And I literally dropped to my knees, bawling my eyes out, because I did not want that to happen to my brother too. Because when he was five years younger, so I felt responsible. And so it's like, you obviously don't wish it upon anybody. And I get that. And we're all human. And we all are experiencing very traumatic things in many different ways. So I feel like it really depends on your intentions. That's just my opinion.
MARISSA: Thank you very much. What advice would you give to survivors to help them heal?
BRITTANY: I would say the biggest thing that has really supported me is I'm constantly seeking for growth. I'm constantly seeking, how can I grow myself and continue to allow myself to get better in all areas of my life? Because clearly, once that happens, it affects every area of your life too. It affects how you show up in friendships, it affects how you show up in relationships, because there's obviously that trust factor that gets very much broken. And so for me, I've constantly been in areas of growth of like, okay, how can I heal this part of me, or this part of me, that has clearly been affected by trauma and PTSD and all that stuff? Obviously, counseling supported me in many different ways. I had literally hands full of counselors, because I constantly was, once I got to a point where I was stuck and stagnant with a counselor, I would go on to the next one. And it wasn't like, I'm going to constantly switch counselors, it was just like, I saw where I was at, I acknowledged where I was at and I was like, okay, now I want to do more. And this person isn't getting me to that next place yet. So I'm going to seek somebody else who can get me to that next place. At one point, I think I had a huge fear of seeing a male counselor. And so at one point I found myself struggling in a relationship that I was with. And I needed a male perspective. So I actually stretched myself to finally see a male counselor because I knew that I needed that male support with where I was at in that period of my life. And then, you know, like I said, once I struggled with postpartum depression, it was finally in that sense of like, okay, this has supported me thus far and I want to go more. So then I saw a Facebook Ad that stepped me into investing in a coach. And then I really spiraled into a personal development experience that took me to that next level. And again, constantly getting new coaches that can support me in different areas of my life to continue to grow. So growth is a big thing.
MARISSA: That's awesome. And I'm really glad that you sought out different counselors. I think that we get so nervous with mental health, I don't know, there's such a stigma with mental health in this society, that it's so hard to get people to even go to therapy, let alone recognize when you've learned everything you need to learn from one person, now it's time to move on to the next; or having tried one therapist or counselor, that doesn't really work for you and then assuming that every other counselor is going to be the same way. So thank you for highlighting that because I think that's so so important to hear.
BRITTANY: Yeah, definitely. I have a therapist friend, she's a friend of mine, and she's a therapist and something she prefaced, she wrote an article about this recently of like, it's not the therapist, it's the modality of which the therapist knows. And there are so many different modalities out there and that's not talked about. And so that's where it might not even be the therapists themselves. It just might be what they know, and how they teach. And so if you give yourself a chance to seek out those different therapies, you will start to realize what works and what doesn't. And it's just like anything else. But I think we get so stuck with ourselves in wanting it to be and look a certain way. And it might not always be that way, the first time around.
MARISSA: Absolutely. So tell us a little bit more about what you do and how people can get in touch with you. Because I think that your knowledge base is mental health stigma and helping people overcome that. And I think that for this particular community, that's so important. So how can people get in touch with you and work with you?
BRITTANY: So I am in the process of building out a coaching program currently. My event is happening until April 4th, currently. And so with that, you can go to Let's Talk About It. My event that I have 42 speakers, speaking on different -- and that's another thing. It's different modalities that have supported them in their transformation from mental health shame. You know, there are people speaking on yoga, there are people speaking on just their health overall, what they eat, and obviously many, many different things. I have my therapist friend on there as well. And so there are so many different perspectives. And so that's the biggest thing that's happening right now in my space. For how you can get in to my space, just follow me along on Facebook as I continue to grow and open more things because I literally just shifted into this space a few months ago. So I'm really honestly looking for feedback right now of how I can support you of where you're at. And really supporting how you can go from your shame, and really pulling apart and uncovering and getting out of the boxes of what you identify yourself as. Because I think a lot of times we put these attachments of what we are diagnosed as our identity, but they don't define us. They don't limit us. It doesn't make you incapable. It's just another label that we don't need to attach to us of who we are in our truth of who we are. And so I'm really wanting to see what are the needs right now and how I can support you to really get to the truth of who you are. And allow yourself to shine and stand in your power and know that you are worth it.
MARISSA: I love that! Thank you so much for doing such amazing, important work and for showing people that you aren't what you're diagnosed with. We get this diagnosis and then just feel like we have to fit in the stereotype of it. And I hate that. So thank you so much for doing what you're doing. And thank you for being here and chatting with me today. I really appreciate your time and your openness with us.
BRITTANY: I'm so grateful. Thank you so much.
[Outro]: If you enjoyed this podcast you have to check out www.marissafayecohen.com/private-coaching. That's www.marissafayecohen.com/private-coaching. Marissa would love to develop a Made for You Healing Plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck alone and hurt and live a free, confident and peaceful life. Don't forget to subscribe to the Healing from Emotional Abuse Podcast and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/MarissaFCohen and Instagram at Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We'd love to see you there.
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent, child abuse, childhood sexual assault, healing from childhood trauma, healing from childhood abuse, healing from child abuse, child abuse, child molestation, how to help a child who has been molested, how to help a child heal, healing the whole family
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Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today, I'm really excited to bring back Orsika Julia, who came on earlier last year to talk about her book 52, which is now available on Amazon and through her website.
Orsika: Yes.
Marissa: Perfect. And also, these brand-new courses that she has created and are in the process of creating, and her coaching program to help adults who have experienced domestic violence get through it. So welcome on. Thank you so much for being here.
Orsika: I freaking love being here. Marissa, your energy is amazing. You are just the best. It's all I got to say. So, thank you like, yeah, just thanks.
Marissa: Stop it. I'm so happy to have you on here. I would love to start. I know that we went over this a little bit last time you're here. But just to give a little bit of background about what you experienced, and what brought you from where you were to what you're doing now.
Orsika: Absolutely. So, I was married to a narcissist, and I saw the red flags and chose to ignore them. Because my self-esteem was in a place where I thought that's all I deserved in life. I was a single mom, freshly single mom, with two little kids, they were I don't even know, like seven and five, somewhere in that range. And I thought that I was used goods. And I thought I only deserved this person who behaved in a way that I liked to begin with, because he bought me flowers, and he bought me jeans and jewelry in the flowers. And he worked third shift. So, he'd come home and it was like, “Oh my gosh, he loves me.” And then I bore him a son. And then it all turned. The switch got flipped and the mean, really came out. And even though I was warned by my amazing mother, she's like, this is not the person. By then I had already gotten pregnant. And it was like, Okay, I'm stuck with him. And so, I wanted to stay with him, not because I enjoyed the abuse people, but because I really wanted the family dynamic. But then I realized that it’s not worth my abuse and the abuse that the children started to receive as well. So, I packed my things up my three children, my dog, my cat, my lizard, and we drove from Oklahoma to Illinois.
Marissa: Wow. that's a lot. And it wasn't just you that had to heal after that. Right? It was healing the whole family. What was that like?
Orsika: Tough, it was really, really tough. Because by the time we've left, the kids were three, nine and eleven. Yeah, they were three, nine and eleven. And so especially that an 11-year-old, she's a strong-willed child and beautiful and is now a grown woman. It's been 10 years. So, she's a grown woman on her own. But she is a strong-willed child and healing her, and she and I got the brunt of the abuse. She got most of the emotional abuse, and I did my best to protect her. And there were arguments where he would say if she doesn't listen, I'm going to take care of her. To which my response was, if you lay a hand on her, I will shoot you. And I wasn't kidding. Like, don't you dare lay hands on her because I will shoot you. I didn't shoot him because he didn't lay his hands on her. I am also not ever going to shoot him. I like my freedom. I like my life and I look horrible in orange or stripes. So, I'm just saying, Yeah, healing, the oldest and myself was really very, very challenging. My middle one was always your quintessential, whatever age she was at. And she's just all fun loving and bubbly. And, she really didn't get affected by anything because everybody loves her and I didn't realize how much my son was about to endure. So, for the year that we were separated before the divorce was finalized, my son was molested by his father. And then healing that has taken many more years than anticipated. But you just pay attention to your child, and you give them what they need. And you don't give the child back to the perpetrator.
Marissa: I think you make a really good point there. I think a lot of people a lot of parents of children, especially after this or you know, parenting after abuse is really difficult. But I think a lot of parents don't really know what to do in that situation. You know, Oh, well, it’s still their father or their mother, whoever the abusive parent is What do I do in that situation? Do you have any insight for them?
Orsika: Well, you know, take We will action and oftentimes, the court system will say, Well, this is still the person's parent and you have to by law, hand the child over. I would say, before you leave, take necessary steps, let your local police department or Sheriff's Department know why you're leaving, so that you have that base covered. Write a statement, as soon as you get it so that you have that base covered. What I did with my son is I recorded, manually recorded not on the phone, that phone conversations, which thankfully, I never had to use in court. But I recorded the phone conversations, I took pictures of the abuse, because every time he was handed back to me, there were new bruises that were unexplained. And having been a former preschool teacher, we know, you have to know the list of signs of abuse. And let's say there's 20 things on the list and my son exhibited 17 of those. So, I'm taking pictures, right? And I'm documenting everything. So, when you're a parent, document, document, document, document, that's the best thing. And then you can go with substantial evidence and say, these are all the things that have happened, it's really important to document. And if you are feeling unsafe, then get a protective order. And believe your child, like my child was three and four years old. So, he was finishing up his third year. And then it happened in his fourth year as well. And I mean, four-year-old don't come up with stuff that was you know, he was saying to me. So believe your child, that doesn't mean jump to conclusions. Like when he told me what was going on. I am very logically, because that's the way my brain works, I was able to take a step back before I saw red took that deep breath. And I was like, let's think through this logically. So, I felt like a four-year-old. And I said, Okay, did this happen when this happened? He's like, no, this happened when this happened? And he's like, no. And so, I was able to process through it. And then he just blurted out exactly what happened; exactly where. And I was like, Okay, so then we went and took a, what is it the SAME test, sexual assault medical exam. And he talked to one of the counselors, and I had to take him to counseling because of the anger that he was exhibiting, and other behaviors. So, he was in counseling at four years old. And he spoke to the counselor of the incidents, and he was in counseling again, and nine, because I paid attention to his behavior changes. And when you see those slight behavior changes, immediately seek help, because most of us aren't counselors, and we don't have the proper tools to help our children properly. So, if you're working on fixing things at home, because of the shame and blame and guilt, you don't want other people to know, which I totally understand and totally respect at the end of the day. It's not about you, at that point. It's about healing that child, to the utmost degree, right? You can heal yourself. But other people, you'll need tools to heal the child. And I mean, honestly, I had to go to counseling, too. So why would I have taken that away from my son? Right? That's just selfish.
Marissa: And I think to that point, children, especially children that are that young, don't have the vocabulary to express what they've dealt with, or what they're going through. And so, I think at that point, it's really important for them to have an ally, who can kind of guide them towards expressing those feelings without judgment. I think counseling can be very, very helpful when it comes to healing from abuse. I know that I say otherwise, by offering other options. But I don't think that therapy is bad. I don't you know; I think that it's a great tool for people that it works for.
Orsika: Yeah, I think so. And, you know, I think therapy and coaching are similar, right? But it's more challenging to coach a child. That's so young, one. And two, you need the therapists to help you in the court system. So as a coach myself, if somebody came to me, with a four-year-old, I have no leg to stand on in court. Whereas the therapist does. And there are therapists who are available pro bono. Because for a while, I was like, how am I going to pay for this, and then I found my resources, and I use my resources, and there's plenty out there. So, it takes a little effort. But it's doable.
Marissa: Yeah. Also looking. If this is a problem for anyone listening that, you know, they can't afford therapy. You can look into Sliding Scale therapy, or therapists that do sliding scale, and they'll work with you on pricing something that you can afford that isn't outrageous.
Orsika: Yeah, that's a great point. Thank you, Marissa.
Marissa: Of Course. So, tell me what it was like being a single mom after domestic violence.
Orsika: It sucked. We're done. And have a good night, everybody. Yeah, I mean, that pretty much summarized it. We lived in my brother's basement for seven months with his family. I mean, it wasn't like a Harry Potter in the bottom of the closet kind of like we had, like it was good. We still lived in his basement. And I'm eternally grateful for that. It was a lot; it was a lot because I wanted to heal my children first. I didn't realize them because I hadn't really delved into personal development. I didn't realize them that you serve from your overflow. So, I should have hindsight 2020. Right, I should have healed myself first in order to heal them better. But I kept giving to them from my empty saucer. So, I was giving them like rice cakes, right? It's like empty calories, just going into my mouth and that's kind of how I was parenting. So, I wish I would have invested in myself and taken some sort of support, coaching, personal development, something. It was really, really hard. And I think I went through a lot more than necessary. Had I had somebody to hold my hand and say, you're going to make it through. I felt very alone. Lots of shame, lots of lane, lots of guilt. Lots and lots of loneliness hours on end of tears, didn't sleep more than five hours. I mean, it just sucked. It just sucked.
Marissa: So, this feels like a really good segue to talk about your courses. So, you have gone through as a single mom, after domestic violence, you've had to heal yourself. You've had to parent after abuse, you've had to heal your whole family.
Orsika: Yes.
Marissa: So now you, this strong, amazing, brilliant woman who I love so much. You're a coach. And you've created courses to help other adults who have experienced domestic violence, abuse narcissism, overcome that and help heal themselves and heal the whole family. Tell me about that.
Orsika: So, my main course is six weeks out of the quicksand. And that gets you out of the quicksand of the I mean, the quicksand that you've been living in. That, that survival mode, and then post that there's other courses as well, you can find them on my website outofthequicksand.com. But my main one is the six weeks out of the quicksand. And that's just six weeks of coaching you did to not be in that muck and grossness because you're not going to be able to soar and fly and be the person that you've been created to be if you're still stuck in the quicksand. And if you're up to here in the quicksand and not breathing, or let's say up to here and barely breathing, then how is that going to serve anybody? How are you going to be able to heal your whole family if you're not willing to heal yourself?
Marissa: Do you have any like little tidbits of information, you can sneak to us?
Orsika: Sneaking tidbits of information, there is something that really, really helped me and this is in the course as well. But there's something that really helped me a lot. It's called the mirror exercise. And if you're not familiar with it, it's really powerful. It's, it was the first leap that I took to honestly and truly love myself. So basically, you go to the mirror every night, and you say, hey, whatever your name is. So, for me, “Hey, Orsika, I'm really proud of you for …"and you name three things that you're really proud of you yourself for doing that day. And then you say, I love you, and you Peace out. Right. And we learned this from our mentor, Jack Canfield. And I was like, this is the dumbest thing ever. So, here's the caveat, you were to do this for 30 days straight. If you're going to do 27, he was 28. You get to start all over. And there's whole psychology about that. But we do the we do the mirror exercise. And I hated it. I hated it. Day one. I was like, “I love you for brushing your teeth getting dressed and breathing? Okay, Love you. Bye.” That was it. But the point of that is to make eye contact with yourself so that you see yourself as a real valid human. So, you see yourself, not just this, this thrown away, stupid person who fell for this narcissist, because I've been there. So, I fully understand and I fully feel what you're feeling. But to really value yourself as a human being. And it was really, really hard for me for the first five to seven days. And then well, five and six days. And then day like seven ish. I was like, hey, Orsika. You know what you did today? Yeah, you brushed your teeth. See the difference? Because the first time I was like, “You brush your teeth. I love you bye.” And by day seven, I was like, “You brushed your teeth. You walked the dog and took a shower. I love you did good kid. See you later bye.”. And so, as the time progressed by like day 21, I was able to come up with maybe it was 14. But whenever However, many days later, I was able to come up with more than three things that I loved about myself. And I was able to really have that heart to heart with myself. And I was really able to find the value in who I was. And we were actually traveling when I was doing this exercise. And I so didn't want to miss a day that I literally want to talk to myself in the phone because I didn't want to get up in the bathroom because we were traveling with somebody, I barely knew is my daughter's ex-boyfriend. And anyway, I was like sitting there looking at myself in my phone for 30 days. So, the mirror exercises. It's a big one.
Marissa: Thank you so much for sharing that. I love that exercise.
Orsika: Though, did you in the beginning?
Marissa: No. In the beginning, I did the same thing. I was like, I love you. Congratulations for
Orsika: You bought groceries today. Oh, yeah.
Marissa: You woke up.
Orsika: You know, and the important thing is to talk to yourself, and to really be proud of waking up brushing your teeth, and showering, because there are people who go through depression that, showering is a challenge. So, I understand that it sounds really minor, but it's really pretty major. Because then once you learn how to love yourself, then you could do your little gratitude jar. Is that what we call it? Marissa?
Marissa: Accomplishment Jar. I mean, I can speak on that. As far as the depression goes, when I was like, really, in my feelings with depression, I would go a week without showering. I mean, it's just, it's gross to like, think about now. But it was so hard to roll out of bed, let alone do something that would make me feel better. So being able to do these exercises, and Orsika is full of brilliant exercises and activities and things that you know, will help you.
Orsika: I think one of the benefits of being a parent, possibly kind of crass, but bear with me for a second. I didn't have the luxury of being depressed. I had to get up and take my kids to school, I had to cook for them. I understand that there are parents who don't do that, because they're so depressed, that they just really physically cannot get out of bed. And I'm not minimizing that at all right? Like, I think it's very important to feel the feels. But I also am very thankful for my children for not allowing me to go there. Because I could have very, very easily gone there. And the trajectory of my life would be totally different.
Marissa: So, let's talk about you put out a book last year congratulations. In August. Tell us a little bit about your book, and where they can find it.
Orsika: If you just type into Amazon 52 finding gifts while sinking quicksand. It's a book about 52 different events in my life. Some of them are great childhood memories, and how I dealt with rejection as a child. Some of them are not so great. Abuse stories and healing from the abuse. So, I thought it was an easy read. But my editors like there's nothing easy about this. I'm like, I mean, apparently, it's a heavy read, but I think it's an easy read. So just read it. It's pretty quick read, don't you think Marissa?
Marissa: I do I love it. I think it's an it's not an easy read. It's an emotional read. Yeah, definitely going to have to like put it down, take a break, pick it back up in a day, but it's so worth it. And I learned so much about you and about myself from reading it.
Orsika: And the whole point of it, like the reason I broke it up into 52 stories, well, one per week, right? Because we have 52 weeks in a year, but so that you can pick it up, read a story, put it down. So, if you do one story a week, that's you got your year covered. So, you can see I've read something this week for those of you who are not readers, and they're not long stories, they're like what a page and a half
Marissa: About that. And they're they really are easy reads, but I took something away from every single story. You know, you're welcome. I mean, it's a testament to your writing, you know, and your, the way you express yourself, it's really personal. It just like it hits you and you start to see similarities between you. And like our stories like our stories and how they overlap and how we're all going through something very similar. Everyone who's experienced domestic violence and everyone who's experienced abuse and narcissism. Like we're all related in that way. Right? We have a common foundation. So, where and how can people get in touch with you, when they inevitably want to join your courses and they want you to coach them and work with them and their families.
Orsika: So outofthequicksand.com and you can get a hold of me there I'm under contact us. You can send me an email Orsika@outofthequicksand.com. Yeah, that's the easiest way email would be easiest way for sure.
Marissa: Awesome. Thank you so much for being a human and for helping this community. And God I just I love you and I love your heart and I love your work. And I'm just so inspired by you all the time. So, thank you.
Orsika: I feel totally the same. Thanks Marissa.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent, healing the whole family, spiritual healing, child abuse, intimate partner violence,
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...
www.marissafayecohen.com/signs-of-a-toxic-relationship
Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Hi, I'm just waiting for my partner in crime Orsika to jump on here, so that we can start talking about some very important topics today. One second to try and find her. So, one of the things that Hello,
Orsika: Hello,
Marissa: How are you today?
Orsika: I am great. How are you today?
Marissa: I'm good that today. I think our topic is did you lose me, I think.
Orsika: Nope, I have you now.
Marissa: Okay, cool. Awesome. So, do you want to introduce yourself, and then we'll talk about the topics we're going to talk about today.
Orsika: I think that's a great idea. So my name is Orsika Julia. And I am the owner of out of the quicksand, which is specifically designed, it's my business specifically designed for parents who have overcome domestic violence and want to just live a better life for life of healing and forgiveness. And, you know, just get out of your quicksand because living in survival mode, let's be honest, sucks. As a parent, fresh out of, you know, when you're fresh out of domestic violence as a parent, you kind of tend to forget about yourself care, because you're wanting to care for your family. So I come and guide you on how to really heal your family through healing yourself. So that's what I do.
Marissa: Awesome. And I'm Marissa, I'm a healing coach and a bestselling author. I work with survivors of domestic violence and sexual assault as well, to help them on their healing path using my three point philosophy called the healing from emotional abuse philosophy. And so welcome. And today, oh, Orsika, and I want to talk about this, this TikTok trend, the National rape day trend that's being talked about a lot. And so do you want to start, or should you
Orsika: You get to start with your sister? And I'll just take it right after you? Yeah, it's so because I don't TikTok.
Marissa: So I actually barely TikTok and people kept sending it to me, which is the only way I found out about it.
Orsika: Awesome. I'm glad they did.
Marissa: I know me too. So if you're not familiar, the TikTok trend was it says created by six men that were saying that April 24 is National rape day and then that sexual assault and rape is legal on April 24, and encouraging people specifically encouraging men to rape as many women as they can this coming Saturday on April 24. Now, that caused a frenzy backfire from survivors and women all over the world, making videos warning their friends, warning people around them what's happening and to be aware of Saturday Night, because this group of people was basically giving advice on how to successfully sexually assault as many women as possible. According to the USA Today, they haven't actually found any evidence at that original video exists. And I don't know, but I do know that the frenzy it's caused has created a lot of fear in the survivor community and truly in the in the community of women online. So which do you have any, any insight or any quick thoughts about that?
Orsika: Yeah, thoughts? I think that's totally disgusting. Like, what is our world coming to Right? Like? Why? Let me back up for the men to have these thoughts that this is okay. Really, really hurts me for their soul and for their life? Like, what? upstanding gentlemen which obviously, they aren't. Yeah, but what human Okay, like, let's not even give them all those condolences and caveats, but what human who is of sound, mind and spirit? think that this is okay. So they're very, very broken. And we have to understand that like, people who hurt people come from a very broken place. I'm not saying it's okay by any means. Because I was raped by my husband, ex now but by the husband. And it's nowhere near okay, but to understand that these people are very, very hurt, you know, and they're just going to continue hurting. And the more fire or more coals that we put on the fire, the more hurt people are going to hurt people and that's just not okay. That's just not okay.
Marissa: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I definitely am fundamentally against people banding together to rape a collection of people, I think that's just a disgusting thought. And it's horrible. You're a better person than I am. Because for me, I don't even care about their condolences. I'm just like, are there anything I state? Right? I don't care about their mental state, like if you have the wherewithal to plot together to, to, to hurt as many people as possible, like, my hope is that they're trying to find actively trying to find the people that started this and all of the people that continue to, to enforce this idea, and throw them all in jail. I mean, I would love to see them all behind bars for at least a week. And the reason that I stopped at a week is because less than 2% of convicted rapists actually spent one day in jail, less than 2%. And so having people that are potentially attempted rapists who are perpetuating this awful rumor or, you know, event should all be
Orsika: Hate crime, really hate crime?
Marissa: Absolutely. They should all be locked up.
Orsika: I guess my question for them is do you have a mother? We all do? And how would you feel if somebody raped your mother? As she was taking her dog for a walk? How would you feel if this was your little sister? Like? Just that? Okay. It's just an I understand, I truly do that hurt people hurt people, right? Like I said, but how would you feel? How would you feel? If it was your mother? How would you feel if it was your baby sister? Or heck better yet? Dare I say? How would you feel if it was your daughter? How would you feel if somebody came up to your daughter who was going on a walk? Just casual walk, and she got gang raped?
Marissa: I mean, the thought of that gave me chills, and I don't even want to explore that thought, you know, having gone through it myself, and you haven't gone through it yourself. You know, I understand the toll that it takes on the victim on the survivor. And the very thought of that, like makes me itch.
Orsika: Yeah, especially when you think of like, the 12 year old daughter, the 13 year old daughter. So if you happen to be watching our happy little video, and you think that this is okay, you have a relative who is a female? Is it okay? Think about it. Like it's stupid. And it's asinine.
Marissa: I agree. It's never okay. It's never ever. And as, as for any survivor listening, if this did happen to you know that it wasn't your fault, and there was nothing that you could have done in that moment that you didn't do to protect yourself. So let's, I could talk about how much I hate assault. But let's move to ways for survivors are ways for people to keep themselves safe, in case, April 24, is what they're saying it's going to be a case it is basically people breaking out and assaulting as many people as possible, what are some ways that people can keep themselves safe in any scenario?
Orsika: Well, for one living in fear is not an option, right? That's not going to keep you safe. That's just going to keep you close to it. And that's not okay, either. So, I mean, definitely don't just hide in a corner unless, unless you're raped, like, let's say, you've been through it, and it's been recent, then please stay inside and hide in a corner. Like that's okay. Like, it's totally okay. But more importantly, just be aware of your surroundings and go with people. So go out by yourself, ladies, like, just use common sense, don't you think Marissa like, don't go out by yourself. If you can avoid staying in the dark, you know, evil lurks in the dark corners, right? And just stay in, if you if you must be out at night, you know, let's say you want to go clubbing or you're at a friend's birthday party or whatever, then just be smart and go in groups. And that means travel in the car and groups. You know, they're unfortunately, you know, the evil that is out there is smart, right? And you think, Oh, I went to my car and a group and we all Park together but you don't. And I'm not saying this to put fear in you, but you don't know what's in the car. So travel in packs,
Marissa: Traveling packs with people you trust a minute? Yeah. Because Yeah, 85 I'm sorry. 90% of sexual assaults take place by somebody who's an acquaintance of the survivor. And I think 85% of those are somebody that's in an intimate relationship. And so not only traveling paths, which is so important, and be very aware of your surroundings, but only go out with people that you trust, trust. You know, just keep yourself safe. You know, if you put a drink down, don't pick it back up. There are over 55 different drugs and things people can put in drinks, that will knock you out for at least eight hours, including but not limited to vising. If you squirt a couple drops of vising, the eye drops into somebody's drink, they're going to be in the bathroom all night. If you empty a whole bottle, which is like what that big, right that right, take two seconds to empty, that thing knocks you out for eight straight hours. So put it
Orsika: And this doesn't let me piggyback off of that, too. This isn't just men raping women. Right? Like, you can't have a woman raping a woman. And you can't have a man raping a man. So this isn't just going out and rape all the women, you know, this is like, just be cognizant traveling packs that you trust and be aware of your surroundings. Always, not just Saturday, like always.
Marissa: Absolutely. Another trend that I saw, I think a couple years ago, was people drugging men, so that they could take the you know, their, their partner, the female they were with away with no fight. So even if you're a man, you know, put your drink down, do not pick it back up. If it's really that much of an issue, because the drink was expensive. Then text. Hold on Twitter, text me and I'll Venmo you like, I'll buy another drink? Because I'd rather you be safe than and be out $12 then, you know, then have this happen more to people who don't deserve it? You know? Right? Right. Right, anybody deserves it.
Orsika: Just putting that out there.
Marissa: Nobody deserves to get paid just for choice in words. What other ways? Can people keep themselves safe? Aside from traveling in packs? And you know, not picking their drinks, surrounding themselves by just trying to get in?
Orsika: I mean, don't say again, don't stay in from fear, but stay in, you know,
Marissa: Make a choice to stay in a choice?
Orsika: Absolutely, like have your gathering and somebody's apartment or house or, you know, keep it safe. I mean, that's, it's more fun that way anyway, because you don't have to deal with the idiots in the world.
Marissa: Right? Or if you are going out or doing something during the day or at night, what about sharing your location with somebody or sharing your somebody, you know, just in case, I always have my location shared with three people. It's always my mom, and then two people who are either in the vicinity or who I have spoken to and told them where I'm going that way. If something were to God forbid, happen, knock on wood. People know where I am.
Orsika: Yeah, and that's something so this is the generational difference, right? Like versus just a tinge younger than I am just a little bit. She's my, she's my younger sister, but from another mister. But like, I don't even think about that. Right. And your generation and younger definitely thinks about that. And I think it's great. So I have my, my son, he's, you know, I can find him wherever he goes, right? Because I have that turned on for him. But I don't really go anywhere that people don't know where I am. But I think that's an amazing recommendation, like, have your location device on. Right. That way. If you are in trouble, then the authority can find you faster as well.
Marissa: Absolutely. There's an interesting story that I Well, a person who came to the safe house I was working out a couple years ago, the only reason she knew where she was when she woke up after a night of being drugged and sexually assaulted was because she called an Uber to her location, and then was able to look back at the location that she called Uber from, and that's how they found the perpetrator. And if she didn't have her location on that wouldn't have been an option. Right?
Orsika: And I love that that is an option. And I understand why people don't want to have their location and all the time. Like I get that you want your private life to be private, but it could save your life. So be smart. Get over your pride and turn location on.
Marissa: Absolutely. Can you think of anything else? Because I'm kind of I got my second vaccine today. I have my microchip in. I'm just kidding. But yeah, no, so I'm like, slightly groggy. But do you have any other ideas or tips and tricks that people could use?
Orsika: Techniques I mean, really common sense. Take a pocket knife are allowed to take pocket knives into places you know, just a little bit each pocket knife. They're what 15 bucks or so.
Marissa: Something like that. I think as long as it's smaller than your palm at least scans Illinois and New Jersey. You can legally have it with you.
Orsika: Well, Michigan laws are totally different
Marissa: In New Jersey or Illinois, but Pepper Spray pepper spray. Sure. I mean, you got 711 for like, Yeah, absolutely.
Orsika: And this, we're not saying this folk to put fear into your brain or into your soul or anything like that we're saying this just so you use your common sense. And sometimes we forget things like, I wouldn't have remembered to turn off turn on my location, because again, I really don't go out, I definitely don't go clubbing. And when I do go out, it's, you know, to visit Marissa. So, in her nice, comfortable place. I mean, I have a firm to take care of, I don't really have the luxury of I don't give myself the luxury of going out and quote unquote, right. So, again, we're not saying this to diminish your intelligence, we're saying this to keep you protected, and maybe give your ideas that are not in the foreground of your of your mind, right. And if you have any other suggestions or thoughts of ways people can keep each other safe and themselves safe. definitely leave it in the comments we would love to hear. Because I'm sure that we didn't cover everything right. Marissa
Marissa: Yeah, definitely.
Orsika: Yeah. And I'm sure people will come up with amazing things, right, a skateboard and beat the crap out of somebody with a skateboard or longboard, I guess it's like, look around, be aware of your surroundings, and see what you can use to protect yourself if the need is there. I mean, if you're drinking a drink, and you need to whack somebody upside the head with the beer bottle, then by all means it's better than getting raped or sexually assaulted.
Marissa: Absolutely. And be friendly with your server or bartender. And I don't mean like, tip them generously. You know, I mean, like, you know, let them know that you're, you're nervous, or if you need help, like they are trained generally, to take care of situations like that, or have protocols in place to take care of something like that. Sure. You can easily get you out, they can get you separated from somebody who you're afraid of. If you're starting to not feel, well get to a safe place with a safe person. Now it's all coming, you know,
Orsika: Ask for help. It's okay to ask for help.
Marissa: People are generally like, Oh, my gosh, programmed to want to help you, right? We all want to help each other in a way. Except people who are scumbag rapists, you know, I mean, they don't want to help you.
Orsika: They want to help themselves.
Marissa: Exactly. And it's not about sexual urge, either. It's about power and control. So, like Orsika said, being aware of your surroundings, knowing who's around you knowing escape routes, you know, having things in place like a longboard or pepper spray or mace, mace, whatever, whatever, knife, whatever makes you feel safe. I used to keep a foghorn in my purse, and a rape whistle. I'm not kidding. I had a friend who bought them for me because I had to cross the street to get home, like cross the highway to get home from work. And so I used to keep that in my bag. And I only ever had to pull the foghorn out once thank goodness
Orsika: Thank goodness it was there. Because if not, then, you know, who knows?
Marissa: Exactly. So, like Orsika said, if you have any other suggestions, or thoughts or questions or comments, feel free to leave them in the comment box. We will be, you know, around all week, monitoring the video and monitoring the advice you guys give and just keep each other safe. You know?
Orsika: Yeah. And if you have any, go ahead, I'm sorry Marissa
Marissa: As you say, it really sucks that this is even like a topic of conversation we have to have,
Orsika: It really does. And I was going to say if you all have any need for just the support, you know, if you've been through sexual assault, or rape or domestic violence that Marissa and I, that's what we do. That's our specialty. That's our gift and our passion. So, you know, aside from this video, if you are a domestic violence survivor or survivor of sexual assaulters, you know, survivor of rape, then please reach out to us whichever one you know, either one of us will be more than happy to just hold your hand and love on you.
Marissa: Absolutely. And I have an idea that I have not run by Orsika yet but
Orsika: It's a perfect idea. I'd love it.
Marissa: Okay, so I think what we're going to do, I'm speaking for you on Saturday, it's going to be probably a very triggering day or an emotional day for a lot of people. So we will have a zoom, maybe going all day, you know, we'll have a Zoom Room available. And if anybody feels nervous or scared or triggered or wants to talk or just you know, needs a pep talk, want some advice for coping skills. Message one of us and we'll send you the link to the zoom video. That will be all day on Saturday. We're here for you. And we're happy to help.
Orsika: I'll take the morning shift, shift. Marissa has the right one because you know I'm old. No kidding.
Marissa: Perfect. I'll do the midnight shift. Perfect. Yeah. Do you have anything going on that you want to talk about anything to promote your new programs.
Orsika: I do, but I'm not going to do that right now just to not take away from I don't want my gosh, these words right who got the shot? We can talk about those next week. I just personally, I just feel like this is the time to really focus on what potentially has been put out there for Saturday. I just think it's so important that I don't want to diminish that I want to be able to give my full support to that and we'll talk about what I have to offer next week.
Marissa: Sounds good and then I'll do the same.
Orsika: Well, thanks, friend.
Marissa: Thank you Have a great rest of your night and if anybody needs anything message one of us okay,
Orsika: Absolutely. Have a good night. All fine.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today, I have two really awesome guests I'm really excited to chat with. The first one is Shanta Block. She's the sister of Kamisha Block, who was murdered in Iraq by someone in her chain of command, the military label the death as a friendly fire and then attempt to cover it up. And we're going to talk a lot more about that in a minute. And we also have on Jennifer Norris, who is a veteran and an active military advocate fighting for the rights of people who are unlawfully treated by the military. And I'm so excited to delve more into that because they explain this way better than I do. So welcome on, guys.
Jen: Thank you for having me.
Shonta: Thank you for having me.
Marissa: Of course. So, the first thing I really want to talk about is you to have different but similar stories. So Shonta, you did not serve, correct? You just your sister Kamisha did.
Shonta: Right.
Marissa: So how did you two find each other?
Shonta: Well, Jen, would you like to answer that one?
Jen: Sure. This is kind of how it played out my life. One of my first research projects was to learn more about the non-combat deaths of our soldiers overseas. So, by non combat deaths, I mean, that's the label that the military gives it in an effort to hide what's considered non-combat, meaning suicide, homicide, or some other unknown cause of death. So, I wanted to bring light to all the non combat deaths overseas and find out what the common denominator was. And in my research, I learned about Kamisha. And learned, because of the family's efforts, that it was labelled "friendly fire,” when in fact, it was a homicide by someone in her chain of command. And so, as I moved forward in life, and in my advocacy, I was fighting for Kamisha and the rest of the soldiers that had died overseas in suspicious circumstances. And one day, I was sitting here watching, Investigation Discovery and Kamisha’s story was on a show called Forbidden: Dying For Love. Finally, we got an opportunity to see what really happened over there because the family, their advocacy efforts had reached a bigger audience, including myself. So, it reignited my fire to talk about those cases and deal with it now that we knew the truth about Kamisha. And somewhere along the line, Shonta just found me, and it was like a dream come true, actually, that I'd be working with her on behalf of her sister. Because before I even knew Shonta, I was fighting for Commission's rights and what had happened to her and everything else, and trying to find ways that we could have prevented what happened to her. So, it was an honor that her sister reached out to me, and that we're now in a partnership to stand up for those that have lost their lives. Especially since 9-11.
Marissa: Wow, well, first of all, thank you for doing everything that you're doing. That's incredible. And so important. I mean, you're giving a voice to the literal voiceless, in a situation where they already are out of control. So, thank you so much for doing that. And I think it's so special that you guys have created a partnership out of something so horrible. So Shonta do you want to tell us a little bit about what happened to your family?
Shonta: Yes. So, in the beginning, before my sister was murdered, I had gotten a phone call from her. And she just kept saying, “He won't leave me alone. He won't leave me alone.” And I said, “Is there anybody that you can talk to?” She said, “There's nobody. There's nobody, I can talk to you here." And I said, “Maybe there's a church there?” And she said, “No, I'm in Iraq, Shonta. There’s no church to go to.” And I was like, “Well, I mean, do I need to call the Red Cross?” You know, I didn't know how serious it was. You know, she was like, no, no. I said, Well, you know, you're coming home next month on leave, you'll be alright. You know, you'll be home next month. You know, in the very next week, it was the day before my birthday stateside, but over there it was my birthday. So, she contacts me and I talked to her on webcam for a few minutes and she tells me happy birthday and I'm like, it's not till tomorrow, and she’s, Like over here it is the 17th. And I'm like, okay, you know, and I said, you want to see your nephew. And she was like, Yeah, because she hadn't seen yet. I was pregnant when she left. And she was he was a month and a half old, and I put him in my lab and she was crying. And I told her that I had to pack the diaper bag, because we were going to celebrate my birthday that night with my friends, and go to dinner. And so I was packing in the diaper bag. Well, I seen my sister's killer in the webcam. I seen his face, like, go right into the webcam. And I didn't pay no mind to it, though. You know, I was packing the diaper bag. And I told her I loved her and went on to mom's and dropped Hayden off, my son, and started going down the road. And there was like a really nice car going really slow. And I was like, why are these people going so slow down my parent’s road. They live on a dead end, you know? And I look and it was to service members in the vehicle. And I was like, Oh my God. And I kind of knew, you know, I was like, thinking in my mind, I was like, man, they don't come to your house tell you they're hurt. They're going to call you, you know? I'm freaking out and turn the truck around. And I get to the end of the street and I didn't even kill the vehicle And I got out. And they were facing me. And I seen that bottle behind that Chaplain’s back, and I just lost it. I mean, I just lost it. I told him just don't even tell me. Just don't even say it. And I saw my mom, mom and my dad come out on the front porch, and my mom just went to scream and she was just screaming at the top of her lungs. And, and my dad, I watched him cry for the first time. They said that my sister was shot by friendly fire, one shot to the chest. And it took five days to get her body home and they said her body was flown to Washington DC to be dressed. And then when it got here, it was sent to the funeral home first and I let my mom and my dad go in their first month. Like Come on. I said, “Why don't why don't you and Dad go in there first. You and Pop go in there first. And I'll wait right here by the door, I won't go nowhere. In just a couple minutes come get me. Just go in there first.” And so, I waited by the door. Mom come just a few minutes. And she said, “Shonta. You ready?” And I said yes, ma'am. So, I walked up, walk in there and mom and dad stepped to the back of the room. And she said go ahead and go up there Shonta. So, I walked out there, and I looked down and my sisters got a bullet hole in her head with a putty patch on it. Just looked like putty stuck in it. And it wasn't her hair on her head. It was a bun glued on the back of her head. My sister's hair was to her chin. And I turned around I said mom, she's been shot in the head. I said this is not even her hair on her hand. And she said Shonta, I know. She said nobody comes in this room. She said, we got to get home and we got to get on the phone. And we need some answers. And what do you do when you're just a civilian? You're up against the government? What do you do? So, mom got hime and she calls the casualty assistance officer, and she says I want to know what happened to my daughter, and I want to know who killed her. I want to name. So a little while later they call back and they give a fake name. I said his name was Carl Brandon. And I got to think and I was like well, I don't think Brandon's a last name. Pretty sure that's a first name. This is not a last name. Something just don't sound right. And she said no. So, she calls back. She says I'd like to get a full name, please and then they call and they said Brandon Paul Norris. Like, Oh, my God.
Marissa: You okay?
Shonta: Yeah. So, you know, time goes on. And we finally get a report. You know, we had to go to the congressman's office. And actually, he told the military, they had six months to get a report on his desk in the very last day of the six months is when the report showed up, and half of it was missing. Actually, even more than half after years went by, we found out that we really only have about a quarter of it. 440 pages out of about 2200. Well, we didn't know in there, even the congressman question that you know, and you just never get nowhere because there's really not any laws set up. It's like they have immunity. They can murder your own and get away with it. And I believe I know that.
Marissa: I would say I know for sure that they know that. And they take advantage of that. As we've heard on other episodes of Breaking Through Our Silence, and as we've heard from stories from hundreds of other families like Vanessa Guillen’s Family. And it's not okay.
Shonta: Right. So, time went on mom fought and fought. Congress and Brady actually pulled the officers in his office, and let us question them. They would not talk about anything. Pretty much like what they were supposed to be doing, you know, like maybe what their job was. I mean, just talking around everything. They never really answered any question. And we knew that soldiers over there were placed on Gag orders, that they weren't allowed to talk to my family. There was really nothing that you could do at the time and about, I don't know, years went on and Investigation Discovery Channel did that documentary that Miss Norris mentioned earlier. And soldiers seen it and started coming forward. A lot of times, because of fear of retaliation, they don't speak about it. But it's 10 years later at this point. They're out, their stateside. They don't have that hand over them, you know. So, then they all started speaking up and said, Miss Block, this is what happened. This is what happened. I was able to get the case reopened, and it ended up being the first homicide case in the Army to ever be reopen by the Pentagon — by the DODIG — Department of Defense Investigating General. Later on, Miss Norris had found out, by the records, this is the first one. And people kept saying that, I really didn't realize what they were saying. And now I understand. What if there was never a homicide case ever reopened stateside ever? Or there was only one. This is the situation that we have going on in the military. This is what we're dealing with. It's reality.
Marissa: I want to go back and focus on the significance of the person who killed her. And if you don't mind talking about it. So, you said that you saw her killer in the camera, in the webcam when you spoke to her earlier that day. So, do you know anything about him or who he was?
Shonta: Yeah. I mean, she had met him in Fort Hood, in a restaurant bar thing. His friend said that he walked over to her. And later, about, I know he started abusing her at Fort Hood. I don't know that it was reported to the PSG, the platoon sergeant. He was actually friends with the killer, because he was an officer there. And so, they let him slide on everything. Well, my sister gets sent to Iraq in a few months, you know, only maybe three months of being at Fort Hood. Well, Brandon Norris is still at Fort Hood. And he's got some training to do. And my sister goes to Iraq. Well, all of a sudden Brandon shows up in Iraq. So, who placed him in Iraq, then placed him as her squad leader? Who pulled the string? Who gave him full access to her, I want to know? In another country, where you know where to turn to. No FBI, no state police, no, nothing?
Marissa: That's disgusting.
Shonta: Nowhere to turn to. But the ones that are actually letting it happen and doing it.
Marissa: And allowing after reports are being made of abuse, and stalking. Allowing him access.
Shonta: So, they get in Iraq, then it goes to abusing her again. Well, a couple of soldiers go in and report it. The PST does nothing. So, then they go to the first sergeant. And they tell him and the captain sitting in there. And that soldier ends up getting moved that day, right then for telling. And this is a male, not a woman, because in the military. I mean, that kind of I mean, they look at males, and that's disgusting, too. They look at them as more than a woman, you know, a woman gets called a soul instead of a soldier, you know? And they're not, you know, they're not another body. These soldiers are men and women, gettin’ murdered by our own people. And the families are not getting answers, and they're not getting justice.
Marissa: Since the case was reopened, have you guys received any additional assistance from the military or is this still an uphill battle?
Shonta: No, they closed it. They closed it right when Vanessa died. That's when it got closed.
Marissa: Interesting,
Shonta: And they said no new findings and hurried up and closed it. And then the first sergeant that I'm after, that was recorded to he just took retirement in Fort Hood two days on the eighth before the independent investigation got there. And he Just had an IG case on him. The first ever homicide case for a cover up. That's what my papers from the Pentagon.
Marissa: God, it's just bullshit on top of bullshit, essentially.
Shonta: Right?
Jen: Completely.
Marissa: So, Jen, do you mind weighing in on this? Because this is what you do.
Jen: Yeah. So okay, all of this was by accident. I want to start off with that. I was a victim of crime while I was in the military. And I witnessed the injustice and how they pretend that the military justice system is equal to the civilian justice system. In fact, it is not. It is set up to protect people in leadership. And that's basically the bottom line. So, I learned the hard way that although the people that I reported, and eventually pled out, in fact, what that meant was, they asked me to agree to the terms of which were, “If you agree to these terms, it all goes away.” And they don't even have to report that anything even happened to any higher authority. So, it can all be swept under the rug at the lowest level. And the Pentagon and Department of Defense, even if they did care, wouldn't even know about it. So that's what inspired me to actually get involved once I was forced out for post traumatic stress, was what an unfair system this is. You give my perpetrators full military retirement, yet you're kicking me out because I have post traumatic stress from what they did. What kind of system is this? So, the reason that I had empathy for Kamisha especially, is because I could have been Kamisha. I was in a situation where I worked as a satellite communications technician, and there were like five people on the team. If I had deployed overseas with my perpetrator, who was also in my chain of command, he was the supervisor. What would I have done? Where would I have turned. there is no 9-11 overseas. I lost my father right after 9-11. So, my new command or spared me from going overseas because he knew I wasn't doing well mental health wise because of the loss of my father. And that's what saved me from going into positions like that overseas, where there's no escape. But at the same time, Congress and everybody knows that women in combat ban have been lifted, more women are going to go overseas, yet they still haven't fixed the situation overseas as to where do you turn to if your chain of command fails you, Or they're the perpetrator themselves? Why do we have to choose death? Because their policies are messed up?
Shonta: Yeah.
Marissa: Absolutely.
Jen: It's unbelievable to me that we have not had this conversation, yet they're bragging every day, about women making strides here, there and everywhere, knowing that we could all get sent overseas on a moment's notice and be a Kamisha Block. What happened to her can happen tomorrow, and it happened stateside to Vanessa Guillen to show the entire nation it can happen on a federal base too. We can't just quit our jobs. We can't just say Oh, I'm sorry. I don't want to work for my rapist anymore without a federal AWOL charge.
Shonta: And the deaths aren't getting labelled right, so we really don't even know how bad it is. I mean, look at Lavina Johnson. She was shot in the wrong side of the head. I mean, acid was poured in her mouth, you know. And they call it a suicide. They call it a suicide.
Marissa: That's disgusting.
Jen: So, there's no checks and balances for the military overseas. There's no one to turn to reopen an investigation. There's no one to question them about how things happen. And they're hiding behind the non-combat death label. There's a story behind each and every one of those non-combat deaths, whether it be from suicide, or homicide, it really doesn't matter at this point. Because if I’d gone overseas, with my rapist, I can see taking my life. I got to get away from him after the cases and I still wanted to take my life. So why wouldn't I want to take my life overseas, if the only alternative was him raping me every day, or beating me or whatever it is that he could do overseas, and there's no one around to stop it. It's no different than being trapped in a domestic violence relationship, you know, with a significant other. they're your family. you depend on them for your life. So, if you anyone's Wondering why the soldiers that post-traumatic stress so bad, if they do make it out alive, that's why.
Marissa: And the worst part about it is that you are legally bound to stay. Or else you're dishonorably discharged and have the most difficult time having getting a job like doing little things, because of that dishonorable discharge, because you stuck up for yourself and did what you needed to do to survive.
Jen: Right. And so, Congress has been giving us crumbs all along. We asked for what the Vanessa Guillen Act is asking for now, back in 2010-2011-2012 timeframe. And we asked for specifically, the Military Justice Improvement Act, which would basically start changing the military justice system to mirror the civilian justice system. So instead of it going to your boss who can hide the crime, or can choose not to do anything about it, because they're buddies with your perpetrator, or whatever it might be. They want to protect their career, there's all kinds of number of reasons that they're covering things up. They couldn't do that anymore, because then you'd report to a police department or, you know, some sort of investigative authority, who would then investigate the situation. And then present it to a prosecutor who then decides whether or not there's a case to move forward. We all we're asking for is that the military justice system, mirror the civilian justice system, and make the system so that the commander is held responsible too, because they could be the rapist. Why are they immune from being held responsible? Because really, what the military is telling the entire country is, we're going to investigate ourselves and commanders are judge, jury and executioner. And yeah, there's no checks and balances for that. If you don't like it too bad. Oh, you think that case should be reopened? There is no way to reopen it what we said goes. That’s not okay.
Marissa: That's your right. That's not okay. So, what is it that we can do, as a country to change that? To make it fair, and to make it safe, because I don't have kids yet, but I know as a human that if my child wants to serve, I will most likely throw a tantrum until they don't, because of all these horrendous stories. And it's not because I'm anti-America, or anti-military, I think that we need protection. But I'm so scared for, for people for any service member, especially women, because we're vulnerable and put at a significant disadvantage.
Jen: Yeah, I was the only female in my work center. And so, I was an automatic target. So, if I go overseas with this group, and one of them turns out to be the rapist, most likely I'm going to be the chosen victim. So, you're definitely put at a disadvantage in that way. So, what I want to see happen is, so Kamisha’s case woke me up to the fact that she wasn't a victim of sexual assault, she was a victim of more of an interpersonal violence. So, one of the things that we need in place is an expedited transfer. So that would be a way for the military member to escape their perpetrator, whether it be from sex assault, domestic violence, stalking, hazing, bullying, whatever it is. But unfortunately, right now, the expedited transfer policy only covers sex, assault, and rape. And I don't want to see the military member have to wait and get assaulted or raped before they can get away from their perpetrator. I'd like to see it expanded so that if they're dealing with escalating sexual harassment, or interpersonal violence, or whatever the situation might be, that they'd be given this expedited transfer to get them away from this person who's obsessed with them and won't leave them alone. Because once you're a victim of that, you figure out really quick, like, Wow, I've been targeted. And no matter what I say, or do I can't stop this. So, we literally need someone to help us escape these situations that otherwise we can't escape without getting federal charges. And where do you go in a place like Iraq? You know, even if you wanted to go AWOL? What are you going to do go run into one of the villages? Like there's nowhere to turn. You know what I mean? Like this is the reality of this situation out in the desert. All I know is why haven't we had this discussion and why haven't they fixed this? And that's going to be the number one thing is to get us to safety, because if you report, it now is a motive for homicide.
Shonta: Right. They get retaliated on.
Jen: And Senator Kirsten Gillibrand recognized that with the Military Justice Improvement Act, why we needed to change the reporting system was, because two-thirds of the people that reported to the military got retaliated against including myself. I got retaliated against so badly, that I had to change squadrons to escape the abuse, because I made him lose his job. That's why they hated my guts. Not that he was a rapist. Not that he was an assaulter or harasser, even though some of them witnessed it. I made him lose his job. No, he didn't lose crap. He got through retire was full military benefits. But as if I'm going to have this conversation with the, you know, judgmental, cruel people.
Shonta: Here we go. Seeing that again. In Kamisha’s cases, this first sergeant is now Sergeant Major and in charge of military police at Fort Hood. And he gets out on retirement two days from the independent investigation. He sneaks out on retirement, too.
Jen: Yep, one of the main players, in Kamisha’s case, helping cover this whole thing up overseas, that Fort Hood had the audacity to retire him in the middle of everything. And he's been at that base since at least 2007 because that's when Kamisha was there. So, of all the people in the world, this guy has institutional knowledge of what's been happening at Fort Hood for years, and they retire him.
Shonta: Right, because he's the military police. So, when there's a crime scene, they show up, the military police show up.
Jen: But what people don't realize is that everybody reports to the commander. So, it would be like in the civilian justice system, saying everybody's got to report to the judge. So, I would have to report to the judge, the police would have to report to the judge. You know, it, basically, that's what the military justice system’s Problem is. Is this one person controls everything, including how it's investigated, what said in an investigation report, whatever. Because the bottom line is, the military does not want you to know that people have been murdered overseas because they don't want to impact their recruiting efforts to get new, young, fresh faces in that have no idea what they're getting ready to step into. So, they can just keep making the same mistakes over and over at our expense. When in fact, all they'd have to do is have a decent justice system that actually cared about things. Include all the reports that are made, so that you'd have multiple people that could you could go to court with to get the one person who was the serial offender, and give them an expedited transfer to get them to safety and let them get some help. Yet, here we are.
Marissa: I have a difficult time even considering these mistakes. Because I have like I said, I've never served, the closest I got was to was being a contractor for the Army Reserve. And even I know that the most vulnerable population are E1-E4. And if I know that being an outside third-party person, the military definitely knows that. And I would, I would even go as far as say they exploit that because they don't protect those people. And by knowing, having that knowledge, and making no effort to protect the enlisted soldiers who are fighting for this country, who are literally like the foundation of you know, our service, our Armed service, to not protect them is ridiculous, and to not put protections in place for those people that they know are vulnerable is intentional.
Jen: That's how it feels. That I have moral injury from knowing everything that I know, especially after doing the research and then meeting the families who are left behind with the not never getting answers. Not having a justice system that they can get the case reopened. Getting treated like crap and having to deal with all kinds of red tape and bureaucracy. Because no one knows where to turn. No one knows that the commander is in charge of everything. Like they're coming at it from you know, I've never been in the military. I don't even know where to start. And not realizing that they have to actually contact a commander, not a police officer, not a detective, or whatever. And then that person can stop that, and then it goes nowhere. So yeah, I can't believe, today, in 2020, we’re having a conversation that we can't reopen, there isn't a streamlined process for reopening cases. Federal cases that occur on federal bases or overseas.
Marissa: And even that there’s, in 2020, no accountability. Right? Like you guys said, it's 100% of the commander's discretion.
Jen: Right.
Shonta: Yep. And part if the problem, when the investigators show up on the crime scene is, they have anything to do with it. Like in my sister's case, you know, they were reported to, I don't know how many times. So they didn't do anything. So then when these investigators show up, they will they didn't probably ever even get informed of that. You know? Where does it go? Right? And a fair part of the problem. When the investigators show up on the crime scene, if they have anything to do with it, like in my sister's case, you know, they were reported to, I don't know how many times so they didn't do anything. So then when these investigators show up, they will they didn't probably ever even get informed of that, you know, where does it go? And then if you find something out later, you give it to these investigators, will they tell these commanding officers, and they give them a head start on what you know, because they're running the investigation.
Jen: They can easily sabotage any investigation to protect themselves. And you know, let me make it clear too. That we're not saying every single commander is going to do this, and they're all covering everything up. I'm saying, the opportunity to be able to cover something up is there. There’s no checks and balances to prevent that. And the reason that we're calling it out now is that there's been too many families that have stated, I don't believe my child died by suicide, in country, A, B, or C,
Shonta: Right? My paperworks not lining up. You know? And these soldiers have come forward, and they're saying this.
Jen: Right. So, and I'm seeing the same stories over and over, because I'm doing the military-wide research. So, it's hard to find the information in the state, because not everything goes national. But where there is a lot of valuable data for us to learn to, from as a society is overseas with all the non combat deaths If we start looking into that, to find out how we can solve the problems in the military, whether it be suicide or crime, we have to look at why they've chosen to take their life if we can determine that. And by doing that, we reach out to the Gold Star families, the people that knew them the best to find out why they did it, so that we could find ways to prevent it. Because until we actually find out why, And we start going at the root of the problem like that, you know, we're just going to keep spinning. And that's what we're seeing too is every year sweeping legislation to prevent this or that, and then nothing happens. The numbers go up, the numbers of suicides are the highest they've been. At Fort Hood alone, they've lost more soldiers to homicide in the last five years than they have overseas. And Fort Hood is symbolic of the rest of the bases. They're just more secretive. So that's why I tapped into non-combat deaths overseas, because all the press releases are on the Department of Defense website, currently, until they delete that too, and take that information away from us. But for now, it's on there. And you can clearly look through and see whether they died in combat or non-combat death. And then from there, you can google the person's name, and find out whether or not the family thought form in the media or whatever, because that's really the only place they can turn to try and hold these guys accountable. And so that you're out there. Yeah, that's how I realized it was multiple families that had fought for justice but we didn't know nationwide because it was only local. And so, once you put start putting all those families together and seeing they're all saying the same thing, that's when you start noticing a pattern, and that's where you start realizing, Okay, wow, I didn't realize there's no place to turn to reopen a case. A federal case if it was on a base or overseas. Where’s the checks and balances here?
Marissa: Right. On the civilian side, about 40% of female homicide victims previously made reports on their abusers of abusive behavior. And those ended up being the killers. So, I would be curious to know what that number is for military. Especially because making a report doesn't necessarily grant something written, you know, right. So, I would like to know How many female homicide victims made reports of stalking, harassment, abuse, rape, before they were then murdered?
Shonta: Absolutely, that what came out from doing the research is I'd find the non combat death I started with females, because it's a smaller population and not as overwhelming. There's a lot of males that have died from non-combat deaths, two that I care very much about and want to explore more. But I started out with the females. And I realized there was a common theme over and over from the parents that they soldier had reported rapes, the soldier had reported harassment, the soldier had reported, in Kamisha’s case, interpersonal violence over and over and over. And then that's what caught my attention was, wait a minute, these are crimes that could have been prevented. And because of military policy, these people are having to choose death, whether it be by their perpetrator, or they take their own lives. And that we can fix. And that's the mission that I'm on right now is fixing the military policy necessary to get these people to safety. So, they can live and not die because the military doesn't have the right policy in place. And where do they turn to you with the chain of command fails them? We need some sort of bug out plan and overseas locations. Especially Kamisha. She shouldn't have had to chosen death, because no one would help her. And she had nowhere to turn. And that's our current situation. That's reality right now for the US military.
Marissa: So, what advice do you guys have for either families of people serving, or people that are serving to help keep themselves safe? And for the families to help keep their family member their service member family safe?
Shonta: Oh, man, all I can say is mind your business, and don't do nothing extra for nobody.
Marissa: Isn't that awful thing to think? I mean, you're right…
Jen: Pray that you don't become a victim. Because once you do, life as you know it, it will never be the same. Because you can't just get out of the military, you have to stay in and deal with their abuse until you can get out of the military. And why should an 18-year-old or a 20-year-old or a 22-year-old die when the military is a temporary situation? Why can't we just fix our discharge policy, if you hate us that much that you're going to bully us to death? Because we had the nerve to report and inconvenience you and your job? You know, why can't you just like find some compassionate way to let them get help and then get out? Instead of them having to choose death? Why aren't we having that conversation? And as long as everything goes good in your career, you'll be good. But until you have to deal with the military justice system, in any capacity, you'll find out really quick, you're going to get sold out quicker than you know what, until we take the power out of the chain of command and put it in the hands of somebody else, like a police department where that's their only job. Just do what we do in our own communities with our police departments not have my dad being in charge of the entire town. You know? Really, that's what they're asking us to do in the military. Dad, you’re going to use your iron fist to run this town through those police departments. You know, really, that's what they're saying. So, we can until we can change that we're not going to be able to really give people hope on the military justice end. But there are laws that people can help fight for, in the meantime, to provide those safety measures so that we can prevent anything happening to their loved one should they choose to join the military. So, they can contact their congressional members and help support the Brandon Act, which would be a law that is named for Brandon Caserta. And it would allow people to get mental health treatment, as opposed to choose suicide while they're in the military. So at least that would be some measure of hope for them until they can get out, or their situation can change. Then we've been fighting for the Military Justice Improvement Act since 2013. That would remove the decision making of felony crimes out of the hands of the commander and into the police department, detectives, prosecutors’ hands to make those decisions. So more along the lines of independent investigations. And then recently they've come out with a Vanessa Guillen Act, that's tackling the sexual assault and sexual harassment issue that we’re dealing with, that lead to other crimes. So, if we take these crimes more seriously, then we can prevent the homicide. So, you know, you'll find the terms of that bill in the online in the IAmVanessaGuillen And then there's other bills too And I list everything on my website, military justice for all. Basically, I track the military legislation history as well so that I know what to share with people and they know what to ask for. So, we can make these changes. But we really need people to like take action on our behalf to get these issues addressed as quickly as possible. Because Meanwhile, people are dying in the data backs it up, like our suicides are the highest they've been active duty wise, our veteran suicide is high, we'd like to prevent them from even getting post traumatic stress to begin with, so if we tackle things on the military, and we could actually make some real change and save some lives.
Marissa: And what about you, Shonta? Do you have any, as the sister of a of a veteran? Do you have any advice for families that might be going through this?
Shonta: I mean, don't give up. I mean, I know it's an endless battle right now. And I know there's really, I mean, there's no laws and stuff set up for justice at the moment. But I mean, I have written a bill for accountability and justice. And hopefully family, you know, it'll get passed and families will be able to get answers and justice. And then a court system that just like, you know, there is in the state when there's a murder. Right now, there's nothing like that. So, I mean, don't give up and he could send for four years, and you can always be trying to do a DODIG report, you know, if something's wrong. It's still no hope when they're investigating themselves, because it just gets given right back to the same in the the investigation. I don't know. Just don't stop, you know, always tell your story.
Jen: Because collectively, their voices do speak and her bill that she's talking about, is the first time that anybody's asked for a way to reopen investigations in the military. Because really, what she's saying is, if we don't reopen this, like we're letting a killer roam free, potentially. And so the family has evidence of some sort where we can bring it forward to an independent investigator and get it reopened as a homicide, potentially, then we're doing our job, which is trying to put criminals away, and why they wouldn't have anything in place to deal with that is beyond me. But it's the same organization that doesn't have one place to go to find out all the unsolved homicides that they do acknowledge, and missing cases. Nothing surprises me, it seems that the institution's reputation is more important than actually solving cases. God forbid, they put unsolved cases on and turn off a new recruit that, you know, has no idea how dangerous the military really is. So therefore, them hiding the data hurts people because we can't make informed consent on whether or not we want to join a dangerous organization or not. Do we even want to take that chance? So, the Kamisha Block Accountability And Justice Bill would be an excellent answer to help us start solving some of these unsolved cases with all these other families that have come forward and collectively said, something's wrong with this investigation. I don't think this is suicide. It's a homicide.
Shonta: And I think the numbers would go down. I mean, if we started seeing accountability, why wouldn't the numbers go down?
Jen: Exactly.
Marissa: Right. If they're held accountable, the people that are doing the awful things, and will be probably kicked out of the military, are discharged. And it will scare other people from taking advantage of the vulnerable population.
Jen: It really is important that people contact their congressional members because like the squeaky wheel does get the grease, and we really need civilians by the numbers. What it boils down to is, if the military doesn't take care of their crime issues, it's spilling out into the civilian world. And my research backs up that they've been let out under these kinds of circumstances and then turn around and kill somebody in the civilian world. So, the military, not dealing with their issues is already impacting civilian society and has been for years. And nobody says anything until after the fact when they're in court and finally can get the data that's hidden to find out, “Oh, wow, he was problematic in the military, too." So, it's coming out in these court cases, but I think collectively we need to talk about its impact on our civilians as well. Their policy is killing our civilians.
Marissa: You're absolutely correct. I think it needs to start from the top and work its way — clean house and work its way into the foundation. Thank you so much for being here today and for chatting with me. You brought up and touched on a lot of really important topics and made some really awesome points And I'm hoping that in the next year, all of these bills will pass : The Brandon Act, The Kamisha Block Accountability and Justic Bill, The Vanessa Guillen Act. That's our job as civilians is to protect the people that are protecting us. We're now fighting for their freedom as well and for their safety.
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www.marissafayecohen.com/signs-of-a-toxic-relationship Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. A couple months ago, there was a news report that hit the US for about 10 minutes about a gang rape in Israel in Eilat — a small city at the bottom tip of the country, on the Red Sea, which has been compared to Las Vegas-ish. And it didn't get a ton of media coverage. But apparently in Israel, it opened up the big to do about misogyny and the rape culture of Israel. So, I have the incredible honor of bringing on a friend of mine Tiferet Solomon. She is a bold, amazing Israeli activist who fights for the change in legislation around rape and rape culture. She'll tell you a little bit more about this. But four years ago, she had a rape attempt, and was able to get herself out of the situation. And we'll talk more about that in a minute. She has been fighting to change the legislation and policy in regards to rape drug victims in Israel. Thank you so much for being here Tiferet. I'm so excited to talk to you.
Tiferet: It's my pleasure, Marissa, thank you for inviting me,
Marissa: Of course. So, you had an experience, a rape attempt? Do you want to tell us a little bit about that, because I think that's kind of, as you said, what put you on the path to doing what you're doing today?
Tiferet: Right. So, about four years, actually, it's, it's four years ago and two months, to be exact. I was given a ride to this guy who I met through a Facebook group. I was going up north for the weekend. And I posted on a Facebook group for rides because it is a very small country. And the farthest distance you can go is about eight hours from one end to the other. So, it's very common that people will share rides, also they share with the cost and also, you know, it's nice to have company. So, I wasn't doing an eight-hour ride, I was doing a two-hour ride. But I posted it on Facebook group, I'm going up north, if anyone wants to join. And there were four people who join me, it was fine, everything was good. And then one of them said, I'd actually love to come back with you on Saturday night, back to Jerusalem. And I was more than happy to do so and we just talked the entire ride on the way back. It was just he and I. It was comfortable. I felt very safe and very listened to. Now, after the fact that I realized that I felt so safe and listened to it because he was listening intently to every single word I said and collecting as much information from me as possible. When we reached Jerusalem, it was like 12:39. I was supposed to go to a friend's birthday party. It was later so I wasn't sure if that's still there or not. And he said, would you like to come up with a bit of refreshments before you go? And I was like, you know what? Sure. 15 minutes, it's fine. As I mentioned, the car ride seemed comfortable and nice. And it seemed that we were actually really connecting. There was no sexual tension at all whatsoever. I have to like make that clear, because sometimes people go oh, maybe those mixed messages. No, not at all. I was very, very blunt and very clear about the fact that, that was not where I was at all. It was more just, we had a good time talking together. So, we went up to his house, his roommate was gone. I took with him my bottle of water, just in case I wanted to drink something. We went upstairs we were standing in the hallway outside like his bedroom / the kitchen / the bathroom. And he said, Let's go out for a smoke. And he asked me, wait do you want to drink? And I said No, I'm good. He's like water, coffee tea. And I was like, holding up the bottle in my hand with like a bit of a weird facing. Yeah, I bought with me. Thanks. I'm good. He's like, okay, I'll get the tobacco because then it's like common that people won't cigarettes as opposed to buying pre-rolled. And then he started rummaging on his table on his desk table in his bedroom, which was odd because I noticed on the corner, there was the package of tobacco just sitting there. I'm like, Okay, what am I supposed to do while he's doing this? And then I said, you know, fine, I'll go use the bathroom. And so, I said, I'm going to go excuse myself. When I came out of the bathroom, he came out from a different room with a different case of tobacco which again, you know, it's all of these things that you notice after the fact. In advance I didn't think it was weird because Chainsmokers, thank God I‘m not anymore, but tend to have a lot of tobacco is just lying randomly around the house. So, I really didn't think too much of it at the time. We went up to 12 pillows for both of us a cigarette, and like a single one, though. And who started talking. Mostly he was talking, I asked, you know what he does for a living. Tell me a little bit more about this project you're working on. And as he's talking and smoking, and I noticed, at some point that I lost train of thought he was talking about things that made sense, he was telling me about his book. And I would hand him the cigarette at times, and he would continue talking. And then each time it went down by the time he came to take a puff, and then he'd light it again. But then continue talking, and then come to take a puff. And again, it was out again. He’d light it, and then continue talking. And then he just gives it back to me, he wasn't really smoking. Again, things you don't notice in advance only after the fact. And at some point, I noticed, though, that I can't understand what he's talking about. Not because the words he's saying, aren't words that make sense, but rather, there's no logical connection between a moment ago, he was telling me about the book he's writing. And now he's throwing to me these random words from the field of Political Science and International Relations, which is the field of study that I was majoring in at the time in the university, and I told him about this during the car ride. And he's just throwing these random, like, you know, it's because of the Colonialization of the Post-Modern Economic Effects of and like, nothing made sense. But it was words that was supposedly comfortable for me. And I was trying to focus in and listen to what exactly he's saying and see, okay, maybe I'm just like, not following his train of thought. But once I listened more I realized, yeah, no, there's no logic here. I'm not even sure how long we've been sitting here. And like, everything started feeling very misty. And I said, what time is it? And he didn't answer you continue talking and was talking is very low, calm, monotonic voice. And I said, I think it's late and I should go. And he, again, didn't react, continue talking. He had his train of thought, and he was going with it. And I realized, okay, I feel like I'm losing consciousness. I feel like I'm losing grasp of reality, and like, something was really off. And I was scared that if I stood up and left, maybe he would try to stop me because something wasn't adding up. And I was starting to recognize, Okay, wait, I was the only one smoking. All of the things were slowly falling into place. So, I slowly got up. And I said, you know, I'm going to go. And he said, what we're having such a nice time. Don't want to stay? I was like, No, I'm going to head out. And I started slowly walking towards the door keeping like, half of my body turned towards him, half towards the stairs, because I was scared that if I turned around, he would grab me from behind, or try to stop me in a way that would cause me to trip over myself on the staircase. So, I was walking, consciously, out while slowly trying to create more distance between us without alarming him by running. And he's like, wait, I have to give you money for the car. I'm like, No it's really fine. It's all good. And I like open the door, and walked out. The second I left the door of his house, I ran to my car, which was parked like at the bottom of the street, right around the corner from his building. And I saw him from the corner of my eye running after me. And I ran even faster into the car. I locked the door, started the car and drove away as fast as I possibly could. While I was doing this, I called my mom. And I said, Mom, I've been drugged. I'm heading to a safe place where I'm going to call an ambulance and going to go to a hospital. Meet me there. And as I'm talking to her, I feel like I'm losing grip on reality. Like, everything is fading, and everything's blurry. And like, I can feel how I'm fighting to stay away, stay conscious. While I was really feeling like this heavy cloud coming over me and trying to like, wipe me out completely. And I had to stay with my mom on the phone actually, in order to drive because I thought like if I didn't talk out loud, I would lose it right then and then what's in the middle of the street. So, I drove to the side. It was about 500 meters away from his house, maybe a kilometer, and I called an ambulance. Now, I have EMT training in my past. I used to volunteer on an ambulance on a regular basis and, and I know how ambulances are supposed to work. And the ambulance that showed up was horrible. They didn't want to take me to the hospital. The paramedic who is the highest ranking official in the ambulance, sat down on the side lit a cigarette and started laughing and saying to his friend, Forget it. She's drunk or crazy. And I'm begging them in tears telling them you don't understand. I've been drugged, and I need to get to the hospital. And they would just, they thought I was insane. Now one of the first things that I always taught people, when I was teaching them how to volunteer and ambulance was, you are the first person that someone in need is going to meet. The most important thing you have to do is be there for them. Imagine how you would want your grandmother to be treated or your parents or you yourself and do that to the patient that you're meeting. Meaning that you are the first person who is really going to give assistance and, in a time of real dire need. But the way this team acted was so far from it, that I was sure that I concocted in my mind the fact that I actually was able to get out of his house. And I started thinking that I'm actually still at his house, and he's raping me. But in order to not feel what's going on, I am playing in my mind a safe scenario that I know from my past as an EMT, that is trying to overcome the trauma that I'm experiencing live. And it's not really happening. Now, they didn't want to take me away to the hospital, and this is going on. I ended up like trying to call another ambulance. But there's only one Ambulance Service really that people use and it's out. And I told him, I'm here with the ambulance, and they don't want to take me to the hospital. I need them to take me. And so thankfully, the person at the call center told them, okay, you're there, you're with her take her to the hospital. Now, besides this traumatic treatment that I had, from their side, they never once mentioned that there's a hospital in Jerusalem that actually has a, we call it an Acute Care Center. It's what it's used for people who are brought to the hospital with fear of sexual assault of any kind. The staff there also undergoes professional training in how to treat sexual assault victims. But also, they have legal standing, that allows the testimony and the tests and the entire process to actually be acceptable in court, which is a very important thing to note. So, they never mentioned that the hospital that takes care of that is not the one they took me to. Instead, they said, Yeah, we'll take you to [a different hospital], which is the one I told my mom to meet me at. And that's also what I was thinking. But I didn't know that there's this alternative and how important it was at the time. And again, I'll remind you, they didn't want to take me to the hospital to begin with. So, they brought me to the hospital, and the entire call light I was like, holding on for dear life to not lose consciousness. Because again, I was scared that I'm not actually being saved. But rather I'm still being attacked. And I needed to see a face I didn't recognize before I could let go. And I remember the second they brought me into the ICU, I saw a nurse walking, although I'd never seen him before in my life and that's it. Everything else went dark. That's where I lost consciousness. My mom and cousin apparently were there to meet the ambulance team. They got there already beforehand. And my mom acted as my advocate throughout the entire process because I was unconscious for about nine hours. And she told them, we think she's been drugged. We need blood tests and urine tests. And she said give me the samples, I’ll take them to a private lab. Apparently, that's not acceptable either. Because in order for it to have legal standing, it has to go through a lab that is recognized. At the beginning, the doctors were skeptical, they didn't put me in a room to take care or treat me. They rather just left me lying in the hallway with hope that my symptoms would pass because they, too, thought that I was you know, drunk or under different kinds of influence. Yeah, so that's about what really happened to me during this time, which really caused me to be much more aware of everything that's going on. There were a lot of mistakes that happened though, also in regards to the way the ambulance conducted itself. As I said, the hospital itself my mom pleaded and begged with them, please give me the test. They didn't agree. Then they said we will send them to a different hospital, which is the only Hospital in Israel that has a lab that can really check for, like drugs that has legal standing. And they said okay, we're going to send her blood test and her urine tests to that hospital and follow up with us. Now, there were policemen who came already before I woke up. The second, I gave the call really for an ambulance, the duty is to alert policemen and have them come to the hospital and collect testimony from the victims. They were standing around waiting for me to return to consciousness. My mom gave them my testimony and they said if she wants to come and open a case, then tell her that we already have the complaint filed in and it will be attached to that. And then, after I was released from the hospital, I went immediately to file a complaint, because this is a sad truth, and I think most places, but in Israel it’s know that if you don't give a complaint within the first 24 hours, the chances of it being treated as seriously go down by about 70%. There are many cases that people come in only later, because of the trauma and fear of dealing with it. And the difficulty of really coming in and giving testimony of whatever case it is. People many times don't do it immediately. But there have been a lot of cases in which when you actually come within the first 24 hours, it's treated much more seriously. And it's given a higher priority. I wouldn't say top priority, because unfortunately, sexual assault victims aren't top priority. But it's given somewhat more of a higher one. And also, that when I gave testimony, they told me, "Okay, we need to get your lab results from the hospital to be able to see which drugs were in your system. That's going to be a key part of us continuing with looking into your case, and what happened here. And we are going to let you know if there's any change or development in your case. And it has two years until it's closed automatically.” But they guaranteed me that I'd get updates. Now I have to say for the policeman's credit, the person who interrogated me, who I gave my testimony to was very, very calm; very sensitive. I was terrified, because you hear all these stories of policemen or people who take witness that accuse you. Well, how are you acting? What are you wearing? What was the interactive beforehand, and I was happily surprised that my experience was actually a positive one. And he guaranteed me that they'd be in touch with me. Two weeks later, I called the hospital to see if there was any news in regards to my test results. And I found out that they never sent my blood or urine samples to the hospital that can do the more advanced checks. Meaning the hospital that I was in does very, very basic toxin evaluation and blood and urine. They don't do the more advanced kinds. And they were supposed to send it to this hospital that has a special kind of testing, that also gives it legal standing, and also really has the ability to look for it. And they told me they never did. I call the doctor who was taking care of me and the ICU and I asked if I could have it. And he said what are you talking about? I told them to send it and he was shocked when I told him they didn't. And then he said one moment, I'm going to check something, wait on the line. And he calls me back and he says, I'm sorry, they didn't send it. And I said, “Why? You said that we need it. You said that you guys don't have the ability to at the police told me that we have to have these results in order to do that.” He said, I know. I told them to, they didn't. I'm sorry, I don't know why. So, this was heartbreaking. I mean, I was waiting these two weeks when I was already, you know, pretty much ready to give up on life and hardly getting out of bed at four o'clock in the afternoon. I was waiting for these results. And suddenly I find out that they when I was sent. That was the beginning, I guess, of what really got me involved in this. Because my tests will never send, I started looking into it and researching what usually happens. What's the status of rape drug victims in Israel, and how are they treated. And I found out that many times, the tests aren't even sent to the hospital that needs to have it. Not every hospital has an Acute Room. As I mentioned. Jerusalem specifically, we have three hospitals here. So actually, like you have a variety and you have a choice to go there if you wanted to. But there are other cities that don't have a hospital that has an acute room at all. And even the hospital that I was in who doesn't have the right room to treat me, they were supposed to send my test to the other hospital, which is the only hospital that has the lab to check for these kinds of drugs, and they didn't. And that's something that happens in many, many cases. And the more I looked into it, I found out how common unfortunately it is. There was a journalist in it, who wanted to really discuss this matter. And she reached out to me due to a Facebook post that I wrote seven months later in which I wanted to tell the world what happened to me to raise awareness to let people know that it's not just something you read about in newspapers that happens on the other side of the world, but it's happening here, and happening to people you know, and it's happening to an unassuming woman just gave a ride to a guy and thought that you know, we're talking it's all good so we can go have a smoke on his roof without anything happening. And that caused:
A) A lot of people to also reach out to tell me stories that happened to them. Not necessarily about rape drugs; about rape, about sexual assault, about the depression that came after. About trying to deal with life. About the post trauma that comes up in dates on interactions. I found that this really opened up a can of worms, where people were sharing with me, I was sharing with others and, and I really found out how, unfortunately common not an assault is because that I already know, unfortunately. But the terrible treatment that the system has towards victims of sexual assault of all kinds. So, through my Facebook posts, I started working on legislation and policy changes. And we had our first somewhat successful policy change in December 2018. Where they released a policy that dictates that the hospitals must treat all victims who show signs of a rape drug, according to a specific process, and really take the test that are relevant, and send it to the relevant labs. Go through everything that's supposed to, in theory, a wonderful policy. Unfortunately, now we're finding out that it's not being implemented as it should. And so now, two years later, I am working on getting the implementation of that policy. But I'm happy to say that in these four years, the policy was written. So that changed, and also hospitals stopped throwing out rape drug kits, which was also a huge, huge achievement that we have worked very hard on, because I couldn't stand the fact that anyone else would be treated the way I was. So, there's still a lot more to go. But it's an uphill battle. Things are changing slowly, slowly. But there's a lot to do there. And as time goes on, I just see more and more how lacking the system can be. And when it comes to this matter, which I'm sure you know, you come and you're looking for like that lifeline to save you and help you and protect you. And having the system turn their back on you is horrible. And it can be even worse than not trying to get help at all. So, I'm working to change that.
Marissa: You brought up so many good points. Thank you, first and foremost for sharing your story. Because it is heartbreaking. When your first line of defense, looks at you laughs and pulls out a cigarette because they just don't care or they don't believe you. I feel like that's even more horrifying than being told we don't believe you. Because in that person's behavior in the paramedic’s behavior, they basically shut you down and didn't even have the Kahunas right, like they didn't even have the guts to tell you, you we don't believe you. There's like, Oh, she's drunk, let's just this is break time for us now. And that's so disheartening, especially when you're going through something so traumatic, that the first person you meet that's supposed to help you just doesn't care, and then to be continuously shot down by every person you come into contact with. I mean, man, you are, you're a tough cookie, I am so inspired by you. So, thank you for doing what you're doing and changing the legislation.
Tiferet: Thank you. I appreciate that. And thank you for what you're doing. Spreading the word is definitely, without a doubt, very, very important.
Marissa: Thank you very much. But it's people like you who are doing the real changes. So, thank you. Let's talk a little bit about rape culture in Israel. So I, in the states, rape culture is a mixed bag, right? Little boys grow up being taught, you're not allowed to cry, you have to be tough. So that manifests in anger and rage and they don't know how to reach out, they act aggressively. Not all men I'm not trying to generalize, but basically, rape culture is very widely ignored for children. And it manifests in aggressive, abusive behavior later. What is Israel's rape culture Like?
Tiferet: Honestly, I think that when you look at rape culture, I wouldn't necessarily look at the fact that men aren't necessarily, sorry little boys aren't necessarily taught to connect to their feelings and express them in a way that they that they feel comfortable with. It's also the fact that men and young boys are taught the way women interact is fake or they're playing a game. When you go on a date with someone and she says no, at the beginning when you try to kiss her, that's just part of the game. Okay, so she's paying hard to get. I had a guy who told me and this was when I was, I want to say 22 or 23. He was 32, I think. Maybe 31. He told me there isn't a woman who doesn't give, there's a man doesn't know how to take. Sorry, it’s a rough translation from Hebrew. But the point was, “There's no such thing as a woman who isn't willing to sleep with you. It's a matter of are you a man doesn't know how to take it.” And I was horrified Because this was four years ago, five years ago. And that was a statement that he saw no problem in saying, and the bigger problem was that it's a sentence that he's heard from other people as well. And its other men who feel this way, as well. So, there's very much that culture of, you know, did you nail her? No, did you get in her pants? Did you play hard to get? And that's something that's still very, very present, and very, very common. And I think that's the bigger problem, where you're teaching men that they should read the signs that the women are giving in the wrong way. And honestly, I'm not disregarding women's part in this also. Women are also taught, don't give in immediately. You can't sleep with a guy on the first date — that turns you into a tramp. There's nothing wrong with sleeping with a guy on your first date if you want to, and if he wants to, and if you both are supportive and respectful and connecting and present in the moment. But like, when it comes to the interactions in between men and women, I feel like we're still teaching these 100-year-old rules of how to do things. And there's something very, very lacking in, Okay, well, much more developed and connected to our emotions and to complexities of life. And don't talk with your friends, or you’re with, especially when you see a group of male friends. Don't talk with your group of male friends about that woman's ass, or how sexy she is, or the fact that everyone has gotten a piece of him. And that's something that for some reason isn't, you know, that I like, and I don't know, if I'm generalizing here, and I don't want to, but it's something very possessive And…
Marissa: It's aggressive.
Tiferet: And unfortunately, it still is something that you hear on conversations. I think people feel less comfortable about making these comments now in the presence of women, which sometimes they used to do more. But it still might happen between a group of men. You know, in a Facebook group; in a WhatsApp group. I had a friend who told me a few, like two or three years ago that she found that there's this Facebook group that men post naked women. Have pictures of naked women that are sent to them, whether it's by their girlfriends, or by one-night stands or that they find online. And it's disgusting. Whether it's a woman who sent you a picture of her naked by choice, that's fine. But then you're taking it and sharing it with a group of other people who have absolutely no rights to it. And so, there's something very much in the culture itself, I would say that is a little more than a little problematic. A lot problematic. And then there's also and this I can't emphasize enough, the system that doesn't take care of it as they should. For example, a few days ago, there was a case of a man who attacked his wife and her beat up and stabbed her. He was horrible. And he was really taking out all of his anger and aggression on her in the worst possible way, in front of the one-and-a-half-year-old. And the judge decided that he doesn't want to release the name of the man, because he doesn't want to and these are his words, “Hurt his reputation." Now, this is a man who ruined his own reputation within a couple of hours, by beating up and stabbing his wife in front of his child. And the judge doesn't want to release his name because he's trying to protect his reputation?
Marissa: I just had a horrible, a horrible flashback to Brock Turner. Did you guys hear about that case at all?
Tiferet: Yeah, I mean things travel.
Marissa: Yeah. I mean, that sounds like Brock Turner. Oh, well, we don't want to ruin his life. He already ruined his life when he, you know, stabbed his wife. Brock Turner ruined his life when he took an unconscious girl and raped her behind the garbage can. Like that was an action that determines and defines the person's personality.
Tiferet: Exactly. But for some reason, when it comes to sexual assault, or rape, there's much more room for temporary insanity. It seems that people don't like to claim temporary insanity, except for one come to these cases. Then it’s like, “Oh, no, he wasn't thinking. He was under the influence of alcohol." Like if he was driving drunk and killed someone you wouldn't treat it that way. But when it comes to sexual assault or rape, oh, no, you know, it's understandable. It happens. Sometimes it's very dismissive. And when the system that is supposed to protect you is dismissive, you can't really expect other people to act other ways.
Marissa: I'm so glad that you brought that up. When I lived in Israel, I lived in Herzliyya. And we would go to Herzilyya Pituach and go out to, you know, clubs and bars and whatever. And I noticed that guys, like you had mentioned before, we're so much more willing to come up right behind me put their hands on my waist and pull me into them to dance on me, even if I didn't know them. And, and when I would try and get away from them or move and be kind of polite about it, there was really no change, right? They’d just pull me back in.
Tiferet: Right. Because you're playing the game, you're not supposed to give it immediately.
Marissa: Right. And I didn't, I mean, coming from America, I didn't know that. So, I learned very quickly that the only way at least in 2010, the only way to get them off you, was to elbow them really hard in the ribs. And if I didn't elbow them really hard in the ribs, they would keep pulling me back in. So, I mean, it makes so much sense now that you said it like that, that it's a game. You know, oh, I'm supposed to pull away because I really want to dance with you, when that's not truly the case. And that element of consent doesn't really matter.
Tiferet: Right, for some reason we don’t, and I think this is really a huge lacking, we don't teach enough respect for — well I think it goes both ways. Men aren't taught enough respect. When you hear a no, because they're taught, they're playing the game. And women aren't taught enough, don't play it hard to get. Be straightforward about what you want. There's nothing wrong with choosing this way or the other way. But be straightforward about it. Don't play games.
Marissa: Yes, absolutely. So, let's move on to around 2018. Right, the #MeToo movement happened here. And it spread really fast around the world, right? You guys felt the me to movement by you? Right?
Tiferet: Definitely. Yes, that was global.
Marissa: So, did anything change after 2018?
Tiferet: So actually, speaking of the system that's supposed to protect you. So, another article that I participated in was, after MeToo got really, really strong. There was this huge social movement that came from Facebook, where people started sharing their MeToo stories, which happened also in the States, I know. And then in Israel, there was also a MeToo — that I was also assaulted or attacked in whatever way once; and then there was also, MeToo — I turned to the system for help, and I was turned away. And then they did a front-page article on one of the Unwind Edits — it's one of the leading newspapers in Israel. We were a front page spread, they bought six of us to interview about, it was really because of the MeToo, you were attacked, you complained, and then you were turned away. And they did a huge bed of like four or five pages in the weekend newspaper, centerfold, about the six of us who came complained, gave testimony, and then were turned away. And how the system turned their back on us. And that was also a huge thing that MeToo did here, which was positive. And this in the sense of shedding more light on the way the police and the hospitals and the court system acts in regards to sexual assault victims. So, there was also a change in regards to sharing stories of what happened, and also a change in regards to, how was I treated by the system? How did the police treat me? How did hospitals treat me? How did the court system treat me. That started really, I would say, October 2018 and it's only been getting stronger. And specifically now due to the case in Eilat, it got much stronger? The volume in which people are crying out and sharing their side has risen immensely.
Marissa: So, let's talk about that. I'm really glad that things are getting better there. Or at least the protocols are tightening up a little bit, so that survivors feel more supported. We're still fighting that battle here, too. But I feel like we are a little bit further along than Israel might be. I don't know if that's rude to say. I didn't mean it that way.
Tiferet: No, that’s probably fair. I would say that the social awareness has gotten higher. I don't know that the actual system has gotten much better. But we're working on that as well. Definitely. We're working on that.
Marissa: Good, because that's so important. So, let's talk about what happened this year. So, this is how I heard it and I could be wrong. So please correct me if I'm wrong. But the story that we were told was that there was a girl in Eilat who was gang raped. And that was it. That's all we got. So, I don't know what happened after, as far as her healing. But then it's telling us that the rape culture in Israel was being overturned. And there was like a lot of people that were painting over misogynistic phrases, and pictures, and statues, or whatever things that were around Israel, that were misogynistic, were being taken down. Is that accurate?
Tiferet: So actually, I didn't hear this side of taking down things that have to do with Israel. I'm sorry about that. What happened was, and I have to say it was a bit of a mess, because also, here information was released in pieces. And the information at the beginning was vague, to say the least. But it started by there was a gang rape a 16-year-old girl with 30 men and that's what most people heard. Exactly. Now. That's what's going on. And for about a week, that's what was on the headlines of every single newspaper, and every single news article out there. A 16-year-old girl was raped by 30 men. And then, you know, the next day, they said, “Oh, it wasn't men, it was some men and some young boys.” And they started trying to understand exactly what's going on but for about a week, we thought it was really 30 men. And what you saw all over Facebook was people crying out. How is this possible? This is a sign of lacking for us as a people. Culturally, we did something wrong if we reached the point where a 16-year-old girl is in Eilat, and is raped by 30 men. And it was really crying of outrage from every single corner. And then about a week later, it was released, “Oh, it wasn't 30 men. It was 10 or about 10.” And then that was I mean, as I say, it's all horrible. It's all awful. When I say interesting, I don't mean in the positive way. But then there was a very interesting change, where suddenly you saw some people writing, “Oh, it's only 10 men. Not that it's good, but it's not 30.” And then you saw other people who came out with declarations of, “To you who said, the difference between 30, and the difference between 10 is meaningful, you’re part of the problem.” And that really brought up even, actually, a larger wave of awareness because they said it doesn't matter if it's 30 or if it's 10. It shouldn't be one to begin with. And, yes, if we're looking at gang rape in this sense, it's horrible no matter what. And there were so many cries of outrage. And people really started posting about it. And there were a bunch of different socialites, whether it's actors, singers, or different relevant social entities, that came up with their own videos saying it was men. This was actually, there were two of them that came out, they are very, very powerful, where they talked about, what you hear as a man in your background. “Now, what does that mean about you as a person? If you actually listen to those people who are telling you, No, did you? Did you nail her? How far did you go? She says, No, then don't listen, try harder…” Like it was it was very, it was done very, very well and very powerfully. And they said, it's our responsibility. It's my responsibility. And these men who are public figures, and very meaningful in the cultural life in Israel, and they came out and said, it's my job to change this. It's your job to change this. What's going on here is something that has to do with us as a people. And it's a horrible sign of our culture and we have to make the changes on a personal level. So, it was very, very negative and it brought out the very, very positive and fruitful results and how the board reacted to it. Unfortunately, we just had this case a few days ago, where a man stabbed his wife. So…
Marissa: I'll bet that that's not the first time that he has been aggressive or violent to her. In fact, I'd bet my life on it. Because stuff like that to pattern that grows and grows. Right? Exactly. This was just the final straw. This was the most recent explosion in a series of explosions. So, I'm looking at an article. It's from November 2019. So, it's a little bit old and it's before all of this social media hype. But it said that, 90% of rape cases in Israel are closed without indictment, and that the numbers of people turning to rape crisis centers for assistance has increased by 40% in the last five years. And it's saying that the number of calls or complaints filed to rape crisis centers in 2018 was 51,000 And it was 40,000 in 2013. So, do you think, as an Israeli, do you think that is because everything is starting to put itself together and processes and protocols are being put in place or do you think it's Because it's happening more?
Tiferet: I think it's because people feel more supported to share what happened to them. Meaning it's not necessarily things that are happening more. But rather, cases that in the past weren't necessarily brought to light, are now being brought to light. So, I have a friend who due to what happened in Eilat, decided that she's sick and tired of the way things are being dealt with when it comes to sexual assault, and rape in Israel, and she started posting her personal stories. And she said, I'm going to start with the story that most people know about me. That I was raped when I was 14, by someone who was 21 at the time, and she came to the police and complained about it. I guess, nine years later. And the police closed the case, because after researching and looking into the details, they declared that that he didn't really know that she was under age, and it wasn't done through malice. And she proves, and then this is something that you bought out through Facebook; she proves how they knew. He knew that she was 14, because she told him specifically in these messages, they met in a chat room. And he had no problem with going out with her when she was 14 and doing what he did. And so that was the first story she told. And then she started sharing other stories that happened to her. About the fact that when she was a teenager she used to babysit for this family. And after a while her parents were going through a divorce. So, she was going through a bit of a hard time personally. And she liked spending time with this couple who she would babysit their children when they were out. At some point she said they started coming home a little bit earlier. And we just started hanging out the three of us. And then at some point, the husband would invite friends over and she started hanging out with this group of our friends. I remind you, she's 15 at the time babysitting, his children, and he's around 30 years old. And she said that apparently it started becoming a thing that they would invite her to join when they would hang out as a group of friends. And then she was invited by just one of them to hang out. And they ended up sleeping together. And then she was invited by another and it became this thing that they sort of, sorry for terminology, passing her around. And none of them at any point, thought there was a problem here. That she's a 15-year-old girl. Now she, as I mentioned, her parents were going through a divorce. It was a hard time. She felt that she was getting attention, and she felt that she was loved. And she said like, on the one hand she didn't understand really why they're treating her like an adult fully. But on the other hand, she felt very grown up because they were treating her like an adult. And at some point, one of the wives found out what was going on and had a hissy fit at her husband and caused everything to blow up, thank God. And they stopped doing this. And then she started revealing though all of these other cases. And she has like these nine different stories of men who took advantage of her. One of them who came to pick up a date, and they were in the car alone, and he raped her. Another guy who was her neighbor and she had a mouse in her house and she was scared. So, she asked if she could stay there while the exterminator was supposed to come. And then when his girlfriend was in the shower, he walked over and grabbed her breast. And there's so many stories that she's just revealing because she says, I'm sick and tired of the fact that people don't tell their stories, or people behave this way. And the system keeps turning their back on us. And that's also something that you see happening more. People feeling socially comfortable to share their stories, because even if the police aren't fully doing their job, or the court system isn't fully doing its job, they are getting social support. And this way, the victim from Eilat, a different friend of mine started a fundraiser for her, for legal aid due to this. And they reached their goal of, I think, half a million within 24 hours. And then for this woman who was just stabbed by her husband, a different friend started for her also a fund for legal support, and they reach their goal of a million, I think also within like three days. So, you see social media as much more support and much more being done. And the system… It's a bureaucratic system. That's a little difficult to change, but I do, I do believe that it's slowly going to get better.
Marissa: That's incredible. Well, you're making amazing strides and the people who you're working with and your friends are also doing such incredible things. I mean, thank you guys for your hard work and I know it can't be easy. You're basically fighting the Empire. Right? You're fighting the head honchos, but you guys are doing such incredible work. So, thank you and just keep fighting, you know?
Tiferet: Thank you. Thank you as well. Marissa, you’re helping to also share, and put out the voices and the information. Yes, we’re all doing this together. And it's our pleasure to try and make the world actually a better place.
Marissa: So, my last question for you, I ask everyone who comes on this show, what advice would you give to survivors who are going through the healing process? Who are trying to get help and break their silence after sexual assault?
Tiferet: Wow, that's a good one. So, I mean, look, it's sad to say, but Sexual assault is not a new thing. Or something that like my case of being drugged, that wasn't the first time something like that happened to me. I mean, the numerous cases throughout all of my years, starting when I was five years old, that I've been experiencing things like this. But when something comes, that really breaks you, and kills a piece of your soul, which is completely and totally what I felt, it's a small achievement, that sort of Wow, you. I remember thinking, at the time, when I was, again, completely and totally depressed, how to getting out of bed or quit my jobs, stopped University, even though I was right in the middle of doing very well. The fact that I got out of bed at four o'clock in the afternoon was like, Wow, look at that. And the fact that a Sunday would come by, oh, a new weekend would arrive, I'd be like, Whoa, I didn't think like, it's not even that I didn't think I would live but, in a way, I didn't think I would live to see another Sunday. And I really needed something to, to hold on to that was more meaningful than you know, “It's going to be okay,” because I knew it was going to be okay. And one day I was going to be passive. But I was having trouble seeing how that would ever happen. So, I needed something more feasible. And I, one night, it was like, four o'clock in the morning, which also something that happened. I would spend most of my waking hours at night when the rest of the world was asleep, because then I felt most safe and most peace, somewhat at peace, with a quiet world. So, I wonder my bedroom, and I started writing on the wall, my wish list. And it was my list of the wishes that I want to complete At some point, in order to, I guess, make myself happy. It wasn't even happy, because be happy was the first thing on the list. So, it wasn't even be happy. But it was these small goals that I was hoping I could achieve in the next, you know, foreseeable future. And that I felt could help me pull myself out of the hole that I was in. So, you know, it was the first one, as I said, was be happy. And the second one was breathing easily again. And then it also went into other things that were, whether they were they developed due to what I was going to — with eating disorders that went completely and totally out of hand; And so, I had really, as one of my wishes, eat without guilt, or stop throwing up. And I also had things like, be a positive change in society. Not let my own feelings about what people expect of me dictate who I'm going to be. So, there was some really big things there. But there were also little things like, dream Sweet dreams again. And what's amazing, and still to this day, I love looking at that one. It's still relevant. And there are times in my life that I looked at it and I said, Wow, I completed it. And there are times that I said, No, I'm not there yet. Even though last time I looked at it, I felt like I completed most of the things I put on that list. But it's interesting to see how things that were very much relevant then, meet me in a very different place now. And I want to say more positively relevant, because then it was really from a heart place of smile again, or wake up in a good mood. And now it's a much calmer and more settled place. So, I guess what I would give us as advice is set small goals and large ones, and really aim to achieve them. Whether it's in a month or in a year. But I found that setting those small goals in a timeframe that is not you know, one day I'll be happy, but rather much more current day, helps to achieve them succeed.
Marissa: I love that. Oh my gosh. I challenge anybody listening to this episode, to make your own list of things that will make you happy or things that you want to overcome and put it somewhere like on your wall next to your bed or on the mirror in your bathroom, so you can see it every day and rate where you are. Oh my gosh, Tiferet that was incredible. Thank you so much for everything you're doing and for being here, and supporting survivors all over the world.
Tiferet: Thank you My pleasure.
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Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today, I have Traci Sharpe, again. Returning guest! Gosh, I’m so excited. Traci Sharpe hosts amazing educational workshops about how to manage yourself after trauma. It’s about looking at things in retrospect, so people can move forward and heal. She also focuses on how People of Color are less likely to be believed when reporting abuse and assault. Welcome back Traci. I’m excited to have you back.
Traci: Hi, Marissa! Thanks for having me back again.
Marissa: Of course! Oh my gosh. Okay, so let’s dive in. When you and I were talking last time, it came up afterwards that you work with people of color. Or you, as a person of color, experienced a lot of backlash and a lot of disbelief and doubts when you were reporting. So, can you tell us about that?
Traci: Yes. And thank you, before I even begin, for having this very difficult conversation. So thank you for bringing this to the forefront. You know, as I’ve said, my incident began in 2013. And as a woman of color, I followed the process because there are policies in place to report up the chain of command. And I was told that because I was a divorced, woman of color, a single-mom at that point, that I would not be believed over a decorated officer.
Marissa: That’s disgusting. So because of your skin color, that had a negative affect on your report and your wellbeing. That’s not fair
Traci: It isn’t fair. And I have found that this is something that happens. I, in the beginning, took it personally. I was thinking, well, why me? I’ve never had a negative review, or negative performance review of any kind. I’d like to think that I have a pretty decent portfolio. And so, that really took me by surprise, because it wasn’t about the actual incident. My skin color became the transgression. And it also became the thing that negated the validity of my report. Because of the way I looked.
Marissa: Did you experience anything like ridiculous backlash, or something that was worse specifically due to your skin color, do you think?
Traci: That was all of it. I was, in the beginning, when I tried to come forward. Like I said in my past episode, I tried to come forward 3 different times. So this isn’t like a one-and-done. I tried to report 3 different time. And each time, I was told there was an issue because of the way I looked. One of the things that we have to be mindful of with the perpetrators and their enablers, is they use little things against you. So, when I talked before, when we spoke, I had spoken to you about gaslighting. And so, I can remember one person saying, with everyone PTing like crazy, I need to get myself back in the gym because I’m getting fat. It’s just a matter of conversation. And that was used against me. So I looked, and if you see any pictures of me, or even if you know me, then you’d know that I’ve never been overweight. But that was that one thing that they picked up. And there would be other little things. Like, my children had to be picked up by six o’clock. So, those were the self-limiting things. Like, I was told, “Someone else has a nanny, so why don’t you have a nanny?” You know, typically, who has a nanny? You know what I mean? So, it was just little things like that, that added up to becoming a big problem.
Marissa: That’s disgusting. So, they did studies across colleges and had a white woman and a woman of color tell almost the exact same story of assault, and then the participants would have to decide whether or not they believed the story. And I think across the board, 90-something percent of people believed the white woman. And most of the people, I don’t remember the exact percentage, I think it was close to 80%, believed that the person of color was lying. Just based on their skin color.
Traci: Absolutely. And I think what happens with people of color… you know, when you’re hired in these organizations, there’s a honeymoon phase. So, you feel welcomed and it’s hard to say, and I don’t want to say I was a tokenized hire because I don’t think that would be fair, but that’s what I began to feel like afterwards. And, I will tell you, even in presenting, because I am a platform trainer, and even getting up in front of audiences, and teaching for the military, there are times that I have been asked not to participate in my own projects. And I hate to say this, but I was told that I wasn’t a part of the Blonde Ambitions Corp. And there were two other individuals there who were blonde haired, blue eyes, thin and I was actually asked not to participate. And it’s disgusting. So you go from the honeymoon phase, to then reality sets in. And so, you start to point out transgressions, or the micro-aggressions. And what’s gong on with this? I’m the one who put this entire project together, why am I not presenting? And so, I was told that it looks better to have someone that fits the mold and I didn’t fit the mold.
Marissa: That’s disgusting.
Traci: Yes, it really is. And these are the things we fight. And this is why I’m so vocal about it. I know that there are other people who have experienced these same transgressions, and these same repetitive injuries, and people live their lives not speaking up about it.
Marissa: And that has to be so painful. Living your life feeling like everything is against you. I mean, I can’t even imagine that. I’m a white woman that came from a sheltered home. So I have no idea what that feels like.
Traci: Yes, it’s difficult. It is. Because then there is the denial of racism. Once you bring it up, then there’s the denial. And then there’s, “Wait a minute Traci, that didn’t happen that way.” And I’m saying, explain. Because if you help me understand, then I can explain to others what going on and we can still do really great work here. But that’s when the targets come into play. And then it is, “Well, we needed someone to add something else,” when we didn’t need them in the beginning. And I want to point out that I was the purchase card holder. The human rights protection official. There were so many other collateral duties I had that other people didn’t have. But they didn’t look like me. So they were the ones that were put out in the forefront. There have been others who weren’t even trained. They weren’t platform trainers, who have trained in my place because of the way they looked. And it is. It’s really disgusting.
Marissa: I’m so sorry that you went though that, and probably still go through that. That’s so not okay. And I wish there were better words that weren’t just a strong of obscenities.
Traci: No, there aren’t. But I think we need to be honest and have the conversations, which is why I’m stepping out and talking about it. And you know, what happens is, we go and get these educations, and we get all these certifications, and specialties, so when we present a portfolio, it looks a certain way. And unfortunately, sometimes the view of what the person having that portfolio should look like, it doesn’t match up.
Marissa: But that’s a preconceived notion. You can’t identify what a person looks like based on their accolades. I mean, you’d probably never think that I looked the way I look if you saw my portfolio. You’d probably think I was like, a 40 year old woman with wrinkles and 12 kids. I mean, you just, you can’t judge somebody like that. And that’s the problem in our society, in my very humble opinion. We have these dumb, preconceived notions based on stereotypes.
Traci: Yes. yes. And so in addition to fighting the sexual harassment, the sexual assault, and all of the other sexual misconduct and transgressions across the board, this is an added layer. So, it isn’t just the offense. There are so many caveats to it. So, it isn’t just one fight.
Marissa: You are a champion for continuing to fight and continuing to speak out. Thank you. And keep shouting this out loud, because this is the kind of dumb stuff that needs to end. It needs to be silenced. We need to stop assigning believability to a race or a color. That’s garbage.
Traci: Right. I agree 100%. The thing for me is, as a mature woman, I know that there are so many others coming up behind us, and they need this. This is a blueprint for them to be able to, just really decipher what’s going on around them. And ask those questions. And document, document, document. Sometimes, it helps, other times it doesn’t. But, it will definitely help that person know that they aren’t crazy in this. A lot of times, and I speak a lot about the gaslighting and the false information, and the, “Well, you know… it wasn’t that way…” But actually it was. And it’s okay to say that. It’s okay that you’re failing, and then we need to challenge these beliefs. And that’s where the issue lies. Let’s challenge. Let’s challenge those beliefs, and let’s say, we don’t know what the reception will be. We don’t know whether or not someone like me can go in, and I’d like to think I’m a pretty decent trainer. I’ve received great feedback across the board. And I’ve been doing this for about 15 years now. And I’ve not had one person have a complaint. And then, to get to this position, and to have someone judge me just based on what their preference is, because I guarantee you, it wasn’t everyone else’s preference, I would have been harassed the way that I was.
Marissa: Thank you for building this blueprint. You’re doing a huge part in changing the world and changing the way people perceive people and professionals. I mean, it’s disgusting that this is something that we even NEED to talk about.
Traci: It is. It really is. But we know that it is far reaching. It isn’t unique unto me. This is the experience. We have to change the narrative around all of it.
Marissa: Around race. Around sexual assault. Around people of color who have been assaulted. Absolutely.
Traci: Yes. Absolutely.
Marissa: Do you mind telling us a little bit about your workshops? I’m intrigued.
Traci: So what I do is, I limit them to 10 people. I have a couple now that I’m doing. One that has been really successful has been, working with women of color who have experienced sexual misconduct in the workplace. So, I vet out the participants. I have to vet them because we really unpack some heavy stuff. And the last thing you want to do is get into a workshop and feel like, either you’re not understood, or that someone is a spy, for lack of better words. But that someone is in there and the intentions aren’t pure. And what I like to do is, speak to each persons experience. Because we all have a voice, and there is nothing worse than being lost in translations, with everyone else’s story. So, that’s why I limit it, my capacity is 10. Personally, that’s about what I can handle. I sometimes do 4-hour workshops, sometimes it’s 8-hours, depending on the content we’re covering. So, I cover everything from the actual experience itself, whether it's harassment or the assault. And then we talk about how to unpack it, and how to reframe it. And I never let anyone leave without resources. So, one of the biggest things for me is, whoever participates in my workshops, they leave with a plan. And they can always touch back if we need to revisit it, or whatever. But they have to leave with a plan to move forward. Whether that is pursuing the EEO process, finding the right attorney to represent them, finding the right therapist, the right medical doctors. Whether or not they need to follow up and do research on what medications will work for them, or whether it’s yoga or meditation. Just making sure they have that information, understanding how it can benefit them, and having a plan. And one of the biggest parts of the plan is not only having the resources, but having a strong, solid, support system. There are times when we say, “Oh, you know, I can call my mom. Or I can call my sister.” I really teach people how to realistically develop the support system they need. Because someone loving you, like a parent or a friend or a significant other, it doesn’t always mean that they are able to support you in a way that you need to be supported. So, that’s basically what I cover in all of the workshops.
Marissa: That’s amazing! Oh my gosh! So, not only are you helping them fight thought heir trauma, but you’re giving them a community, and you’re giving them a safety plan. That’s phenomenal! Thank you for doing that.
Traci: Thank you for saying that. We have to. One person at a time.
Marissa: I hope you understand the value of that. People will go to therapy, leave therapy and immediately feel relieved. Then the next day they wake up lost again. So by, handing them, and creating with them — making them a big part of their safety plan — I think that that’s so powerful.
Traci: Yes, I think it is. I think we teach victims how to be victims. I like to teach victims how to be survivors. And if they are at the center of their own plan, then they are empowered to reach out and develop whatever it is they need. The resources are interchangeable. And that’s the thing. It’s not a one-size fits all for everyone.
Marissa: Right. There’s no one right healing journey. It’s very personalized. Thank you so much. So how can people get in touch with you about your workshops?
Traci: They can go to WhichNarrative.com. It’s www.whichnarrative.com. They can look over the website. There are a few resources. I uploaded a few short videos. You know, just to let people know they aren’t alone, and some of the things they are experiencing, some of those visceral responses, are common, so people don’t feel like they’re wayyy out there by themselves. To contact me on the website, there is a contact sheet they can fill out, and I get the information, and I respond within 24 hours.
Marissa: Thats amazing. Thank you for the service you’re doing for survivors, to help them heal. And thank you for speaking with me on this really difficult topic.
Traci: You know, I think we have to. Because there are times when we feel like you’re experience is the only experience. And no one will get it. One of the things that I’ve spoken to you about, that I don’t mind sharing with the listeners is, well, my son was gung-ho and ready to join the military until all of this happened. And so, now his whole life has been impacted. He’s not comfortable, and I am not comfortable either, with his name, his last name being the same as mine. And my story being so highly publicized. We know that there are some people out there that will hold that against him. So, he’s decided now that he’s going to go to college for two years, stay at home, and then he’ll transfer to a four year college. But that wasn’t his plan. And I think just letting people know that your whole life is impacted in ways that you never believe it will be. So, it isn’t just your life. It’s those that are attached to you as well.
Marissa: It’s not a one person issue. It becomes a familial issue. Right? Everybody that you are close to, who is impacted based on your trauma. The people who live in our home, who share you lineage. Everybody is affected.
Traci: Sure. Even friends. Because if you think about it, when you suffer from anxiety or depression or PTSD, there are times where you turn down invitations. I can remember a time that for months on end, not wanting to leave the house. And so, where I was someone who was really social, and got out and did things; I hiked and I connected with friends; and just had a really great social life. That all came to a screeching halt, because I just was incapable. And thank god I found a wonderful therapist who let me know that it wasn’t me. It isn’t you. It’s what you’ve experienced, and we’ll work through this. And now, I’m able to clearly state my needs or my limitations. So, rather than saying, “I’m not going.” or ducking the phone call, I can say I’m not up to it today. I’m dealing with some things over here, and once I get through those, then sure, we can go have a glass of wine at the winery.
Marissa: That’s amazing. And I’m glad that you’re able to set those boundaries. And for people listening, I hope you know that needing to take space and declining invitations, that’s normal and it’s okay. Don’t ever feel guilty for needing that time and that space. And knowing how to set boundaries.
Traci: Yes, and being able to state it clearly. Even if you can’t communicate it at that moment, being able to clear that up. Because it’s empowering.
Marissa: It’s like taking control of your life back. It’s one small step towards taking control. Thank you so much, again for being here Traci. You’re phenomenal, and you’re such a wealth of knowledge and information. I’m so happy that we got connected.
Traci: I am too. Thank you Marissa. And don’t forget, if you need help out there, I’m at www.whichnarrative.com
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Rob: All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to a very special BCP / Healing From Emotional Abuse tag-team connection episode. First, before we get to our featured guest at this time, please welcome back, the ultimate tag partner Amazon award-winning multiple time bestseller my good friend Miss Marissa F. Cohen. Marissa, What's up over there? How you doing?
Marissa: Hey, everything's good in Chicago, we've got a heat wave. But other than that, we're fine.
Rob: Hey, you know, could be worse these days, you know, you count your blessings every day. But again, thank you for three minutes, your time and the platform and I'm super excited to welcome to this show. We're talking about the speaking out movement right now and having these very honest and open discussions, which I think is just the first step in moving forward and creating this Wrestling World. This indie Wrestling World that I love so much, and making it a much better place. So, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the show at this time. She is pro Wrestling's necessary evil. The goth Power Ranger herself. Miss Chelsea Durden. Chelsea thanks for a few minutes. How are you?
Chelsea: Hi, Thank you for having me on. All right down here heat wave is more like our way of life in Florida.
Marissa: Sorry.
Chelsea: What's going on?
Rob: Good. Florida's a good place to be in you know, in the in the wrestling business, for sure. Real quick. You know, tell us a little bit about your background, kind of like that origin story getting into the business. Did a meteor hit the Earth? And then you became a professional wrestler? How did that all start for you?
Chelsea: Well, some people will tell you that I've crawled out of the depths of hell. But the reality is, you know, just like every other pro-wrestler, ever. I started watching Wrestling when I was like five or six years old. I'm trying to take after my brother, as much as I could. And I just grew up, always wanting to do it. And when I was 22, which was six years ago, I just took the plunge and started my pro wrestling journey. And now I got a little more back problems and neck problems than the average 28-year-old. But boy, what a ride it's been. Even discounting all the negative, it's been such a crazy, crazy ride.
Rob: Yeah, absolutely. And you touched on it. And obviously, you know, we'll get into the very serious talk really soon. But obviously, you know, anyone who's following you on Twitter, I saw you, you know, being able to open up and speak out. What was kind of like your first thought when you saw this trending on social media? Was it a bummer? Were you happy? Were its mixed emotions? What were your immediate gut reactions to seeing the speaking out movement trending on Twitter?
Chelsea: It was definitely mixed emotions. Because on the one hand, I was glad that people were getting their stories out. And they were, you know, taking a stand against what has always been a very real problem in wrestling. But at the same time, it just hurt so much to see that there were so many other women like me, who had gone through very similar circumstances to me. And, then I go back to the other side of the emotions where, you know, I'm glad they're not alone with their pain anymore. And back to I'm really sad that there's so many of us that it had to create a movement. And I knew, once I saw it on Twitter, and I saw people I knew who were coming out with their own stories. A friend of mine texted me. And he said, I know that you were looking for a sign of when the time would be right to talk about what happened. And if you're still waiting for a sign, I think this is it.
Marissa: That's awesome.
Rob: Wow. And I was just going to say and Marissa you know, obviously, this is something you can totally relate to, but kind of getting over that hump. You know, you had the friend reach out to you, Chelsea. What kind of made you finally just pull that trigger and really sit down and type out those multiple tweets.
Chelsea: It's kind of funny. A couple weeks prior, I had sat down in my living room and constructed that over the course of a few hours. I'm just thinking, you know, I just had to get it out of my head and onto paper or document. And just thinking maybe it would just be a cathartic release for myself. I had like no plans of when I was going to release it. When I was, you know, if I was going to post it publicly or at all, if that was just going to be like a personal thing for me. And because I've been holding on to it for a year and a half at that point, or longer, if you consider how long I was in the situation, I didn't tell anybody about it. And it was like the hammer dropped when the speaking out movement started gaining some traction. So I went to my parents’ house After work, I think it was a Friday. And they knew a little bit of what I had went through, but not all of it. Not some of the heavier parts. And I wanted them to hear it from me before they saw it on the internet. And that experience broke my heart, just seeing my parents completely broken. And then I went home and I revised everything. It took a while and I posted it about maybe 4:30 in the morning, and I went to bed.
Rob: Wow.
Marissa: Wow. Well, that was really brave for you to post that and truly, extremely brave for you to tell your parents. I mean, I know so many people, including myself, who didn't tell their parents because of fear of the reaction that we'd have from them. So that's really admirable of you to have done.
Chelsea: I mean, they're, they're such wonderful people. My parents are my best friends. They're my biggest fans, they come to all the local shows of mine, that they can. You know, they take pictures and video. They buy my shirts. Like they won't let me give them shirts, they buy my shirts. And my dad sends pictures and videos of me wrestling to his friends and his co-workers. I'm so close with them. And that's why I broke my heart so much to tell them but I couldn’t, as much as I wanted to protect them from feeling like they couldn't protect me, they're my mom and dad and I had to I had to tell them if I was going to tell the world then I had to tell them, too.
Rob: Absolutely. And for those listening I mean, you know if you haven't read what Chelsea has tweeted out in her speaking out moment, Chelsea, could you give us like kind of just like a short and sweet kind of recap of, I believe it was your trainer, doing terrible, terrible things to you.
Chelsea: Yeah, it was my first wrestling trainer, Pablo Marquez in Fort Lauderdale. I started there with him. It was at the time, the only, you know, wrestling school in the area. And I started training with him in July 2014. And then August 2014, is when he assaulted me for the first time. And you know, it's I always knew why women don't report things like that, and what happens to victims with you know, freezing up and, and keeping it a secret and feeling ashamed. And, you know, all of that, like I got it on a surface level. But I didn't really, truly understand why until I actually went through it myself. You know, I had thought of myself as a strong person before. That I would never just take that quietly and I would I would fight back, and I would go to the top and I wouldn't hide it and let it get worse. But I did. And I didn't really understand why that happens until I went through it myself. And part of me felt almost kind of like I deserved it because I had a lot of friends involved in independent wrestling before I actually started wrestling myself. And several of them have warned me, you know, Pablo is really inappropriate with his female students, just don't find yourself alone with him. And you know, be careful if you're if you're going to go there. And I brushed it off as you know, indie wrestling drama, or, “Oh, maybe they're bitter because they don't get booked,” or something stupid like that. But then they were all right. Everybody who warned me everybody who told me to be careful.
Rob: It's crazy. I think I remember an instance in that tweet, you know, I personally have such a strong connection with the indie wrestling scene and I work with some really great promoters. Now I'm not going to name drop and shameless promo that's for later. But I will say, it's been so positive to me, I've had such a positive experience with the indie wrestling scene. And to hear these stories, you know, and I see all these, this very young group of talent coming up that are going to go very, very far. I get very, very worried. And we always talk about you know, the good brothers, the good sisters. This family; the respect in the ring. You know, there was that instance, I believe in your tweet where it said there where you came out, you were obviously like bruised and beaten. And one of your, I guess, friends or someone you worked with in the ring kind of saw that something was messed up and you like assured them that everything was fine. I mean, I can understand like, why you know, felt the need to do that. Do you feel like the this is the wrestling community’s issue, to kind of step up now and really kind of take the initiative to look out for each other?
Chelsea: It's time now more than ever. There's a lot of good brothers and sisters in independent wrestling and higher-level wrestling. I've been so fortunate to come across so many wonderful, wonderful genuine people who just want to give back to wrestling, and love wrestling, and love teaching, and guiding, and helping. But there are so many who are still stuck in the old ways. Because in a lot of ways, and it's moving away from that now but up until very recently, like the last few years wrestling was really like the outlaw sport. You could have who knows what on your record and still find your place and in wrestling. And you know, lots of shady characters, people with pasts that nobody knew about or did and just kind of brushed it off because maybe they were a great wrestler. That attitude towards that that old school you know, brothers protecting brothers mentality is changing for the better. And it's time now, more than ever, for people to stand up as higher-level a community and protect the people who are coming after us and the people who are just starting to get into the wrestling business. They shouldn't have to go through things like this. There's a lot of old grizzled veterans who want to punish the newer generation, just like they were punished. But it doesn't have to be that way. And that's an old, stupid mindset. Why would you want people to suffer the way you suffered? I certainly don't. I'm saying this at the ripe old age of six seasoned years in wrestling. It's not fair for people to have to go through this, if we have the power to change it. There was no social media in 1995. But now there is and we can take care of people and we can warn people and you know, clean up wrestling for the better.
Rob: How do you? How do you know I'm sorry, and Marissa perhaps you could actually like relate to this? Like you always say, speak your truth. Break your silence. Like how did that feel Chelsea to, you know, say the names and you know, tell the story and possibly protect a lot of these up and comers. Was that part of the healing for you?
Chelsea: It was incredibly cathartic to finally say something about it, because I felt like I'd been carrying this really, really heavy backpack for so long, that was just getting heavier and heavier. And it was getting worse. I wasn't sleeping. I wasn't eating. I was just going through the motions in other aspects of my life. And my friends noticed, my parents were worried, because it was just driving me insane sitting in my head like that. And actually getting it out there, and having people know, instead of just, you know, running into them in different locker rooms, — and then seeing that something's not quite right but they can't really put their finger on it. And not now knowing everything I've gone through. It was such a freeing feeling.
Marissa: I can't even imagine what it felt like carrying that around. And then even to make it worse, you're involved in this community that it's really big, but it feels so small. And so, I imagine everybody knows everybody. So, the fear of speaking out… Like, I can't even begin to imagine what that was like.
Chelsea: Oh, yeah, it really is such a small community. You know, there are 1000s of indie wrestlers all over who have never heard of each other. But the community is really a lot smaller than people might believe. Everybody knows everybody, especially in Florida. It's such an insular community. And every promotion knows who runs every other promotion, and who's in it, and everybody's secrets, and I knew it would spread really fast. And that was, you know, part of that fear, even for me. I started training at another wrestling school, not terribly far away, and I’m still driving through Fort Lauderdale every day, praying I wouldn't see anybody on the highway on my way down.
Rob: Wow. And Chelsea, I wanted to ask you this and I actually screenshot of this and retweeted this a little while ago, and maybe I'll put the screenshot on my Facebook as well. It was a quote you put. You put, “When you work for outed abusers, you're showing all your friends, they can't trust you.” Tell us a little bit your mindset there. I took a lot from that personally.
Chelsea: Well, that came from, you know, people I've known for a lot of years now I saw were still working for his promotion and training at his school and other people I knew training with and working for other outlet abusers. And I felt like, so by working for that person, someone who's been outed as having done something so heinous, you're really demonstrating that the things that they've done really aren't a problem for you. And, you know, stepping back and saying, “Oh, well, he never did anything to me, or he's always been, he's always been cool with me.” It's kind of trying to like shrug that responsibility off you have as a person to other to other people. And it felt to me, like you're showing everybody that you know, $40 or $60 bucks or maybe even $100 is more important. More important to you than, you know, sleeping at night.
Rob: Yeah, I think you hit that one right on it on the Marissa I'll throw it back to you.
Marissa: Well, we had a conversation with another wrestler, and I apologize that I forget who it was, who said something similar, like, well, this person has been accused of rape or sexual assault, and they're still being booked. And promoters were responding with and booking agents were responding with, well, what do you want me to do not book them? Yeah, that's exactly what you shouldn't be doing. And for people to continue to train under this person and work for this person for Pablo. You know, you shouldn't be doing that. Because you're still putting food on his table. You're still allowing him to continue to offend people. And you're pretty much you know, nodding your head at him and saying, like you said, "What you did to these people, how you hurt Chelsea and probably countless other women who trained under him, that's all okay because I never experienced that.” I know I'm pretty much just mirroring what you said. But like, it's just so powerful the way you said it.
Chelsea: It's the fact of the matter. It's like I know for a fact other people that he's hurt. And you know, I haven't come out with it or named them or anything because that's not my story to tell it's theirs if they ever choose to tell it. And it just kind of seems, it's I don't know, you really, you find out who your friends are really, really quickly, when you become somewhat of a social pariah in the community. I never wanted this to be like the champion of movement and you know, like holding a flag. It's like I told my mom a really long time ago, probably back in 2014, when I was just telling her different things about indie wrestling, and how things are run. And she would say she was flabbergasted and she'd be like, well, that that doesn't sound right. Or that sounds awful, you should say something about that. You should do something about that. You should speak up about that. And I told her that you could either be a successful wrestler, or you could be the one who suffers in pursuit of, changing the world, or changing your world. And I didn't want to suffer. I just wanted to be a successful professional wrestler. But I realized a couple months ago that I have a responsibility to everyone else, to make sure that this stops happening. Even if one girl who Google's pro wrestling school, South Florida doesn't click on that link, and decides to go somewhere else instead, then that's what I've wanted. That's what I want to do. I don't want anybody to go through what I went through ever again; I don't want anybody. I don't want him to be able to hurt anyone again, and I don't want anybody else to have the room to operate in the shadows and hurt people either.
Marissa: I can completely relate to what you're saying. I mean, not in the Wrestling World. But when I started talking about my story, it was way before #MeToo. And it was way before all of this and it really made a lot of people uncomfortable around me. And people stopped wanting to talk to me or be friends with me because I became like you said a social pariah. I was like, the person who, like the “man-hater.” Meanwhile, I had more male friends and female friends, but that's neither here nor there. So, thank you for taking on that role, Even though you kind of have to choose between mental health and success. That's not a fair place to be in. When you started speaking out and went public about this a month ago. Did you did you face backlash? Did you get people breaking their silence to you? What happened in your community?
Chelsea: Well, I did face backlash, not right away. At first, I was just completely overwhelmed by the outpouring of support. People I had never met and never heard of, were messaging me to tell me their stories. And you know, unload things that had happened to them. And that was really heavy to like, read through, but I was glad that they did it. They don't have to be alone with you know, just suffering inside their head. And I was, you know, people who I hadn't spoken to in years were messaging me and telling me they were behind me and they're proud of me and they love me. And I couldn't believe that. I expected the backlash that did eventually come in the form of everybody in Pablo’s camp double down on backing him.
Rob: Yikes.
Chelsea: It's like this weird worshipful thing that you know, it's something that I noticed when I was there. At Coastal Championship Wrestling. I noticed that Pablo didn't really like when his students would go to work for other independent promotions. Not even the in the area like not that they were to like his local competition or anything. But he didn't really he didn't really like that he would talk a big game. How he wanted his students to you know, grow and travel and, and work different places and gain experience, but he didn't really like it and he would give a lot of them a hard time. He would only really be okay with people working different shows if he went with them. And it took me a while to realize, but it finally dawned on me that he didn't want his students to see the way things were at other wrestling schools and other independent promotions. Where their younger guys weren't expected to pay their coaches phone bill, or pick them up because he didn't have a car, or like pay for their own opponents.
Marissa: Those unprofessional.
Chelsea: Those were things, those were things that were happening. And when people see that the grass is, in fact, greener on any other side, they want to leave, and he wants to prevent that. So, his people are very isolated from the rest of the wrestling community and he likes it that way. Because he doesn't want them to see that when they, when they screw up a drill that they don't have to get, kicked out of the ring, or shoved or smacked across the face, or any number of things that I've personally witnessed happen to people, other than me.
Rob: I was just going to say it just you saying all that, like. I mean, obviously, so many things you said, it's like hits a nerve with me, because, you know, I love this business so much, especially the Indies and you know, people I call friends in Indies, whether they're, you know, up and coming stars, or, you know, trying to make a name for themselves, or some of these great promoters. Because it's all about working together, you want to see people succeed. I love it, when in your organizations, we have a lot of great places here in New Jersey that I work with. And there's also one or two really bad places that are finally getting outed and stuff like that. But that's not what it's about. So, to hear all those things like, you know, you think you'd want your students to succeed. I know trainers that are just such amazing, inspiring people. They want to see their students succeed. They want to inspire them. So, my question for you is, you know, I love professional wrestling so much, the Indies specifically. Does this take the shine off for you? I mean, I see you got some great matches coming up. I see a tag team with Red Velvet. That's some super exciting little shameless promo there. But does that take the shine off for you?
Chelsea: It could have and it should have. But I, for me, personally, and I know it's not always the case with other people who have gone through similar, and I absolutely don't blame them for not wanting to be involved anymore, or just wanting to move on with their life. But for me, I felt like he had already taken so much from me that I could not let him take wrestling from me. Because he wasn't wrestling. He wasn't the embodiment of wrestling. He's not the end all be all of wrestling. He's such a small microscopic part of it. And I couldn't let him take away what I was born to do.
Marissa: Fuck Yes, fuck, yes. That got me fired up. Now I want to start wrestling.
Rob: I love it.
Chelsea: Make sure you have a good chiropractor on file.
Marissa: Duly noted.
Rob: I love it. So as Marissa always says, you are definitely a champion in more ways than one. For sure. I do want to thank you for a few minutes of your time and opening up. We really do appreciate it and I'm sure a lot of other people appreciate it as well. But I did want to ask you this or last question for me. Advice you would have for some of these young up and comers. You know, we talk about these terrible things that happen behind the scenes or in training and specific places. We talk about those airport pickups for some of the you know, big talent, we talked about maybe having separate locker rooms, like any advice to some of this up-and-coming next generation talent.
Chelsea: I would tell them you know, first of all, find a reputable wrestling school. Google is your friend, and you know. Don't just go to their website or their Facebook page, you know. Vet it as thoroughly as you can. If you have a friend that's in indie wrestling, certainly ask them for their recommendations and, you know, figure out whether you're going to have a good group of people there or not. But also, if something feels off to you, or it feels wrong, it probably is. And don't let anyone convince you that that's just the wrestling business or that's just indie wrestling, because chances are if it's not okay in other professions or other sports — you know, the way somebody's being treated, or the way maybe your trainer treats women, or maybe they take advantage of younger students being naive — It's probably not right. And I would encourage them not to not to stay quiet about it.
Rob: Absolutely, anything else from Marissa before we get out of here?
Marissa: I don't have any other questions. But I really want to commend you on speaking out and breaking your silence, and supporting so many other women and champions in wrestling, who have been affected by sexual assault, sexual harassment, Rape, emotional Abuse, narcissism, abuse. I just think that what you're doing is more powerful than I can describe in words, you know, you are truly making a difference. And I am so grateful. And I'm sure hundreds of women and men who have been affected by abuse and assault are also extremely, extremely grateful for your openness and your honesty and for putting the people who deserve to be put in their place, in their place. And Don't let anyone stop you from doing the things that you love to do. So, thank you so much for being here today. We totally appreciate you.
Chelsea: Absolutely. Thank you for having me and giving me the space to ramble.
Rob: Alright, I'm clapping for you over here. Before we get out of here though, the most important part. No, no, not in this case the most important part. But we are about that shameless promo and I did love those T-shirts. Tell us a little bit where people can follow you on social media and get some of those great T shirts AT Pro Wrestling tees all that good stuff.
Chelsea: Oh, well. I have a pro wrestling tees store. ProWrestlingTees.com/ChelseaDurden. I got a couple of shirts up there. You know, I like to say ever I have a wrestling podcast myself called Demon Road Diaries. Yeah, we always plug our socials at the end of it. And I always like to say, head to prowrestlingtees.com/ChelseaDurden. If you're interested in helping me put my cats through college. It's not cheap. Sorry. I'm just kidding. No, I really am. There's a kitten in my lap right now. Oh, and I'm on Twitter and littered and says I'm on Instagram at Darden says and pretty soon, I have a T shirt coming out. That's going to be direct sales that I'm going to be taking pre orders for that 100% of the proceeds are going to be donated to a local domestic violence shelter here where I live. So the art is getting finalized on that. And I'll be posting that up soon probably in the next week or so.
Marissa: Can you make sure to send me the link to that when you're done? Thank you.
Rob: Awesome. Hey, Chelsea, thank you so much again for opening up for a few minutes your time. You know, stay safe in this crazy 2020. And continued success moving forward.
Chelsea: Absolutely. Thank you, guys.
Rob: All right, guys, as always say here on the BCP. Stay safe, stay positive, take care of each other. We're out peace.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Overcoming narcissism and healing from emotional abuse are so important to your mental health and to living a life of freedom, confidence and peace. Today, I want to talk about how to develop confidence, and why building confidence helps overcome narcissism. But before we start, I want to brainstorm ways that I can help ease your healing journey. Imagine you’re standing on a cliff. And on the other side of a deep canyon is the life that you dream of. A partner who connects with you, supports and empowers you, and makes you laugh and smile. A life filled with freedom, confidence and peace. I have been where you are now. Standing on the edge, dreaming of that life. And I’ve built the bridge between where you are now, and that dream that seems so far away. Let me walk you across the bridge, and literally hand you the life of your dreams. It’s possible. I’ve walked this path with thousands of survivors, who live free, confident and peaceful lives. Let’s walk this path together. Don’t waste anymore time feeling lonely, worthless or exhausted. Schedule a call with me today at scheduleacallwithmarissa.com.
In my Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, building resilience is the second key component of overcoming narcissism. You build resilience by building confidence and boosting confidence, learning how to love yourself more, overcoming low self esteem, and regaining self respect. Resilience is that strength that allows you to overlook and ignore negative energy and toxic people. It lets the words that would normally hurt you bounce right off. And having that strength and that power is refreshing, after emotional abuse. Being able to stand up tall and the words fall right off you, its empowering.
Building confidence is different from putting up a wall, because putting a wall between you and other people is distancing and isolating. You’re not addressing your trauma, simply putting a very temporary bandaid on it. Our goal isn’t to feel isolated or push others away. It is to let the words of narcissists and abusers bounce off you without affecting you.
So, there are a few ways you can develop confidence, but this is one of my favorite confidence building exercises, and it’s super simple.
On your phone, open up your alarm app. Create a new alarm for 10 minutes after you wake up. As the alarm title, write an empowering phrase or something you love about yourself. Like, I’m a badass. Or “Kick butt today.” Or, I have a beautiful heart. And set it for everyday at the same time.
Next, set an alarm for when you normally have lunch, or sometime in the middle of the day. Do the same thing, but pick a different phrase or feature, to remind yourself how smart, intelligent and powerful you are. “I can accomplish anything.” “Today is your day.” “I am smart, funny and kind.” Set it for everyday at the same time.
And finally, set an alarm for 10 minutes before you go to sleep. Before you do any nighttime routine that you have. Title this one with a quality you love about yourself, or an empowering phrase — something that makes you go to sleep feeling inspired. You can write a long-term goal that you’re working on, but phrase it as if you’ve already accomplished it. “I am excited to be living my best life with my dream partner in Colorado by the mountains.” Or something that you want in life. Set this alarm for everyday.
Now, on a scale from 1-10, I want you to rank how you’re feeling right now, 1 is bad, 10 is amazing. And every night before you go to sleep and every morning when you wake up, I want you to rank, using the same scale, how you’re feeling. It’ll surprise you how one small change in your routine can have such a grand impact on your overall confidence.
In my newest upcoming book, The Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, I identify 10 easy techniques and confidence building exercises that will help you develop confidence and maintain it, with little to no additional daily effort. The release date is still to be determined, but to Pre-Order your copy, visit:
https://marissafayecohen.com/product/the-healing-from-emotional-abuse-philosophy-the-3-keys-to-overcoming-narcissism/
In addition to that book, which is an incredibly exciting work, I have a resource available right now. Healing From Emotional Abuse: 365 Ways to Start Your Healing Journey. You can find that, as a special offer right now, for only $7 on my website at:
www.marissafayecohen.com/special-bonus-offers, or $11.97 on amazon.
Learning how to develop confidence is just one step in my 3 step process to Healing From Emotional Abuse. In order to fully heal, you must have all three steps working together. I want all survivors of abuse and narcissism to live free, confidence and peaceful lives because we deserve it. You have overcome and survived so much. It’s time to take your life back!
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Don’t waste anymore time feeling lonely, worthless or exhausted. Schedule a call with me today at scheduleacallwithmarissa.com.
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Breaking Through Our Silence. I know I say this every time but I am so honored to bring in my amazing, amazing friend, Dave Gilliland to talk to us today. Dave is an asylum officer with the Citizens and Immigration Offices, a veteran, a survivor of child sexual abuse, and a Southern Baptist pastor for the First Baptist Church of Coal City, Illinois. But before all of that, he is my former co-worker, amazing business partner, and long-time friend and travel buddy. We worked together at the 416th Tech Army Installation working in suicide prevention. Thank you so much for being here, Dave. Oh, my gosh, I miss you.
Dave: It's awesome. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to share my little slice of the world on such an important topic. I'm really excited to be here. Thank you.
Marissa: Well, thank you so much for being so open to talk to us. So today, I really want to focus on how religion plays a role in abuse. I have been confronted with several people reaching out asking about what they can do, because they are very devout in their religion, and feel very stuck in their abusive situation. So, as a pastor, if somebody were to approach you and say, “I'm in an abusive relationship, but I don't know what to do,” what advice would you give them? What would you say to them?
Dave: Well, you know, every person is different, and every situation is different. So, I don't know that there's a boilerplate answer. I'm actually dealing with a couple of different couples that are going through divorce right now. One from my church, one from my extended family. And there's been a culture for a really long time. In a church culture of you don't divorce unless there's some kind of sexual infidelity or things like that. And there's definitely biblical precedent for that. At the same time, I don't think that people should take such a legalistic view of the Bible that they stay in an abusive relationship. I can't imagine that Jesus would want you to stay and be abused. I just don't get that from the Scripture. So typically what I would do is I recommend counseling . I don't counsel myself, because I'm not a counsellor, you know. I'm just a guy who happens to be a pastor on the side. I don't have a counseling degree. So I outsource counseling , but I recommend counseling . I do recommend reconciliation, as the main goal. You know? Restoration, reconciliation. Let's not walk away from something that's broken if it can be fixed and restored. You know? That's even better. Sometimes people just don't want to put in the work because it takes work. So, you know, definitely counseling . I don't want people hiding and just suffering abuse for no reason. I don't think that's a good way to live. And I don't think that honors God to live that way either.
Marissa: That makes sense. First, I like that you said that you don't think that Jesus would want somebody to suffer through abuse. And I agree with that. I'm Jewish, by tradition and by blood. So, Jesus has never been a part of my life, but, from what I understand from Catholicism and Christianity and the sects of Christianity, I also can't imagine that a person that preached tolerance and non judgment would want you to suffer. Right?
Dave: Right. There's, a whole school of thought, it comes, like I said, from a very legalistic perspective. Kind of an old school cultural perspective that, you know, the man is in charge. And, you know, the scripture saying that your body is not your own, it belongs to your spouse. And that has really been misused and abused. Some people may say, some pastors may say, “Yes, you should suffer just like Jesus suffered.” And, you know, I think that's a real misinterpretation of Scripture. Jesus always confronted people in their sin. I mean, he never just ignored sin. But, he did it in a loving way. And he would say things like, “I'm the judge, not you.” Basically, who has no sin cast the first stone, right? All of us have our sins; all of us have our shortcomings. And I think God, if you look from the whole creation story at the beginning, if you look from the Torah, all right, all the way through the new testament to Revelation. God, continually, constantly over and over again, is about redeeming and restoring. And I think that when people are in an abusive situation, you should try to fix it. Sometimes it can't be fixed. And I think there is a point where you just got to walk away. And I don't think it's the Church's responsibility to make people feel guilty about that, to harm them. You can be guilt tripped in staying, or there's a lot of different ways that we can manipulate people into doing things that they don't want to do. And I don't think that's the Church's job. I think the Church's job is to redeem all of those types of things. To love. And that's ultimately, I mean, you can get through these things. I've seen marriages come back from the brink. Most of the broken marriages I see, there have been a little bit of direct abuse. Like emotional abuse, or some verbal abuse. But most of the time, it's years and years of neglect, right? It's about not dealing with things as they happen. It's not, it's about trying to cover them up or to cover them over, instead of addressing it right then and there. And what happens is when people hold on to their stuff, and those hurt feelings build up; those wounds add up. And then there's a point where everything just explodes. Right? And then it's just a big, giant mess. Like I said, I'm dealing with two divorces right now and that's exactly what happened in both of them. One is a 13-year marriage. The other one’s over 20 years. And it's simply because they have neglected their marriage over the years and they've abused each other in that way. They've not taken care of each other. And now, there's, you know, very little hope for reconciliation.
Marissa: But what about people who are, not to, you know, downplay anything with the couples that you're working with, but the people who are in verbally or emotionally abusive relationships that are persistent? Abuse is classified as a pattern of behaviour that cycles through honeymoon, to tension, to explosion. And so those are the people that I'm concerned about, truly, that feel guilt ridden to stay.
Dave: Well, again, I guess I would recommend counseling first, for any of those situations where there's sexual, physical, verbal, emotional, try to get some help. There's a point when you are enabling somebody else's mental illness, right? Their stuff’s being projected on you, and they're taking it out on you. If I ever struck my wife out of anger, she should walk out the door. Right? She absolutely should. That said, we've been married for 20 years, we should get counseling, if that's possible. I grew up in a very abusive home, with an alcoholic father. And I can't tell you how many times I heard, “Oh, I'll never drink again, I'll never hit you, again. I'll never do this, again.” And there comes a point when you know, right, that those words mean nothing at all. Right? Words go so far, but then there's got to be some action. So, in the church language, we would call that repentance, right? And what repentance means is, it doesn't mean saying, “I'm sorry for something.” It means basically doing a 180. I was going this direction, now I turn around and I’m going in that direction. So, if I'm being abusive, I'm going to quit being abusive. And I'm going to start being loving and supportive and encouraging and all those things. So, when I'm dealing with people from a pastoral perspective, one of the first things I look for is, how do I see these people behaving towards each other? Are they behaving towards each other with criticism and sarcasm and a lack of integrity? Or are they trying to love and care and compassion? Do you see those things in their actions? Because what you ultimately want is you want that person to say, “You know what? Yes, I am wrong.” So, we would call that, you know, confession. “I'm wrong. This is wrong, and things I've been doing is wrong.” So, they're displaying some humility, right? And then they say, “I'm going to change my ways.” Then we create some action steps. What is that going to look like? Number one, you're not going to hit or you're not going to say these things. You're going to go to counseling. You can go to counseling together, but you also should go separately. And then we create some action steps. And then we really just want to check in with that other person, the victim, the person is being abused. And see, is this actually happening in day-to-day life? Because usually, when I see somebody, it's once a week, once a month, at the most, if they're going through something like that. So, you want to keep checking in with that other person. “How's it going? How's it going?” You can tell if somebody’s really turned it around. If they really want to restore. If they really want to repent. I'm using a lot of our words, but it's just the way it kind of plays out. You know, if they repent and they start taking those actionable steps, you really want to try to support keeping those people together. If they're not, then, and I can't make that call, you know. At some point the victim has to, I hate even using the word victim, but the person being abused, has to make that call. And I think, as a pastor, not every pastor is like this. Not every denomination is like this. But for me, I'm not going to dump a guilt trip on you for doing that. You know, I don't have to live with the abuser. You do. And there is definitely a point now. You know, the flip side of that is somebody says, “Oh, my husband came home and had a bad day and, you know, threw his car keys at me. I'm leaving.” Well, okay. I have bad days, too. Is this habitual? Like you said, is it a pattern? Or is it a bad day. You know, some people will look for anything to get out of a marriage. And some people stay too long. And that's got to be a personal call.
Marissa: That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for saying all that. So, I wanted to bring this up: in vows, in marriage vows, it says “I vow to love, honor and cherish.” And those three words are powerful words, but they're also really vague. So, a lot of times, people will use that as a way to guilt somebody into staying, right? Like, “Well, you vowed to love, honor and cherish me.” But then on the flip side, that person isn't feeling loved, honored or cherished back. So, can you just give what your opinion of that is?
Dave: Sure. I mean, in an ideal world, that's what we would all do to each other, right? I've been happily married for over 20 years now. Do I love, honor and cherish my wife every day? No, not as much as I should. I take her for granted. And she would say the same thing to you, you know? Because we're human beings. And that's just the way we do. A lot of people don't even put those things in their vows anymore. What I more specifically point to, and you know, if I was a really good pastor, and I had been really prepared, I would have looked up the exact scripture reference for this. But in Ephesians, Paul tells husbands and wives, and this is the one that probably you hear most often, is wives submit to your husbands, right? Yeah, I mean, it does. It's wives submit to your husbands as your husband submits to Christ. And so, a lot of men will use that and say she's supposed to submit to me. Well, it says, as you, the man, are submitting to Christ. Most men aren’t submitting to Christ the way they want their wife to submit to them. So, it's not it's not a license to abuse, it's not a license to oppress. It says, husbands, love your wives. Wives, respect your husbands. And I think it's interesting that those two words are used with those two genders. Because it seems like sometimes the most difficult thing for a man to do is to show love. And sometimes the most difficult thing for a woman to do is show respect to a man. And, you know, there's a lot to unpack there that you could unpack. But the thing that I tell married couples, when I'm getting ready to marry somebody, is the wedding is a day. A marriage is a lifetime. And it takes work; it takes intentionality. And what it really takes is selflessness. If you are putting that other person above yourself, each and every day as much as you can, and they are doing the same, you have a much higher chance of being successful. You are putting in 110% every day, and they're putting in 30%. At some point, you got to say this is dumb, right? This just is dumb. And that's, I think, when you ask for help, and you address it, right? Because if you don't, then what happens, again, is you go 3, 5, 10, whatever years. However you decide to cope with it until you just blow up, and you're like “I'm done.” And it doesn't matter what happens now. So, should we love, honor and cherish? Yeah, I mean, I should love, honour and cherish you as a human being. Do we do it? We're not great at it, a lot of times. Just look at social media, right?
Marissa: That's true. I think that we're at a point in society. And this is a total 180. But, we're at a point in society where social graces have kind of gone out the window. And we're kind of so disconnected because we are so overly connected, that the need for human contact is satisfied by turning on my phone and going on Facebook. So, I don't feel the need to shoot you a text message every week and say, “Hey, Dave. How are you doing?” And I just think that's so sad. And I think that plays a big role in the way that people relate to each other and why abuse is so rampant.
Dave: I think, too, that you see, you've probably heard this before, but there's a degree of anonymity even if you're friends with a person on Facebook or Instagram. There are things that I see people say on social media to each other that they would never, ever say to their face. And I think, in a way, and I'm not going to say that all social media is from the devil. I think it's just the way we use social media in such a poor manner. But, I think it has really decreased our communication skills. I think it has really taken away from the way we communicate with each other. And I certainly think there's probably a correlation to the way we communicate in the marriage relationship in that sense, as well. It's a lot easier to get in my friends group and chat with my buddies about how horrible my wife is, instead of just actually saying, “Hey, babe, what you said to me was, the way you said it was disrespectful. And what you said hurt me.” How hard is that to do? And if I said that to my wife, she would be crushed. You'd be like, “Oh, no, I didn't mean to do that. I didn't mean it that way,” or “This is what's going on,” you know. And we can have an actual conversation about it. People don't seem to want to do that anymore. I don't know why. And I think maybe one of the reasons is because social media makes it so easy to not have to do those things, right?
Marissa: I guess it sounds so silly. But there's a thrill in picking a fight with somebody or saying something that you would never say to somebody’s face on social media. Because there's really no, there's no consequence. I can go on and use really mean words and attack people. And the consequence I get is a couple more people will call me a bitch. That doesn't really mean anything to me, right? So, there's like a thrill in that. And then the more you do that, you just get used to that kind of aggressive negativity. And it becomes much easier to speak in that way than like you said, than it is to confront the person that's actually bothering you. And my mentor, Jack Canfield, has said to me, on several occasions, that we complain about things to the wrong people. So, his biggest example, his main example, is we don't go around and complain about gravity, because we can't control gravity, right? It just, it is. It exists. But people, like you said, will go to their friends and bad mouth their partner, or, you know, will attack somebody on social media, and complain in that way. Call everybody from different political sides ignorant, and stupid, and dumb, and whatever. Because it's so much easier to do that and be validated than it is to confront a person and be honest.
Dave: Right. And sometimes, my wife, like I said, we've been married over 20 years. And there have been times when she'll say something that has been hurtful to me, you know. I'll say something back to let her know. But at the same time, that's also an opportunity for me to do a little bit of self examination. Why did that particular thing, that touched a nerve. And why did it touch a nerve? Right, and I think that's another thing that we lack. Because what you mentioned about being validated, right? It's much easier for us to go out and find people who agree with us than to do some hard self-examination on why we say the things that we do, or why we behave the way we behave.
Marissa: Right. And that's a really hard pill to swallow for a lot of people.
Dave: I'm not the most overtly religious, you know. I'm not a traditional. So, just so your folks know, I don't have a seminary degree. For me to be a Southern Baptist pastor is nearly unheard of. I've got a lot of tattoos; I have a divorce in my past. You know, it was definitely ordained by God that I ended up with the Church. There's no other way to explain it. I don't have the most traditional approach. But I have to feel from my faith; what I see in the Bible, or what I read from my faith, is that it is always, like I said, about, there's hope. There's hope for change. That people can change. Abusers can change. People that have been abused can heal, right? I think that's the most awesome thing about the Christian faith, is that it offers that opportunity. And in our tradition, God, the Holy Spirit enters into you, into your life. You surrender your life for His. And what that means is you surrender your will, your hopes, your desires, your dreams, your goals; you surrender everything for His. And when that happens, when you make that choice, when you do that surrender, you know, we feel then that God starts to work through you. And when He does, He can radically, radically change your life. And I'm telling you, you know, if you talk to guys that I was in the army with, I didn't get all these scars and tattoos because I was in Sunday school my whole life, right? I rode motorcycles, I ran with a rough crowd. I did some, you know, some very hard things. My parents owned taverns when I was growing up. So, I was raised in a very toxic, you know, chemical, alcoholic, abusive infidelity. I mean, it was just rampant. Everybody did it. You know, as a child growing up, I thought everybody lived that way. And I'm a pastor. I mean, there's no, it makes no sense. I'm more compassionate. I used to be so mean and just use and abuse people. And now I feel like I'm so much more compassionate for my fellow man. I have no other way to explain it other than God. And I think that's the greatest thing about faith and about spirituality, is that it gives an opportunity for change, it gives an opportunity. Paul says in Second Corinthians 5:17, the old is gone, you are a new creation, right? You get to, that doesn't mean that you get off scot free, right? Things that you do have consequences. There are still consequences that I pay for, for things that I did 30 years ago. It doesn't give you a blank check. But it gives you a new start. And that can happen for so many people. Sometimes it's really hard for them to accept that these patterns of behavior are so ingrained. And sometimes it's just easier to be abused, or to abuse, than it is to think of a new way of being, or a new way of doing.
Marissa: People can change when they want to. And I truly believe that I've seen people change. And so, I completely agree with that. I think your congregation, because of everything that you've gone through, and how you got to where you are now; I think your congregation is so lucky, because you're relatable. I think one of the things that I, for a lack of a better term, distrust about organized religion, is that the person that you are praying with, so like the rabbi, or the priest, or the pastor, they are these nearly perfect beings. And that makes them really intimidating and difficult to confide in, in my very, very humble, non-religious opinion. So, when I was doing grad school, I had to write a paper about domestic violence in the ultra orthodox communities. And I learned that these people who were going to the rabbi for help, were basically turned away and told that they need to fix their household because they are the ones that are imperfect. And I think that that's so dangerous. So I, first and foremost, want to thank you for being who you are, and being the leader that you are. Because I think that you're helping a ton of people, just by having an imperfect background and an imperfect view, that people don't need to be perfect. They just need to be willing to change.
Dave: Again, this is all cultural stuff. And I'm talking about church culture, specifically American church culture. Where there is this kind of American Dream gospel, this American Dream philosophy. Where if you're the man, you wear the suit; you go to work. And the wife wears a dress and raises the babies. And everybody goes to church smiling on Sunday morning. And that's the perfect life. And that's just not realistic. And it never has been. I mean, let's be honest. It's never been that way, right? And what you get, then, in that kind of philosophy, is you get these religious leaders, from all different faith traditions, that end up being put on a pedestal, because they are spiritual leaders. Some of them, let's be honest, like the pedestal. They like the attention. They like the power. And it's always just a big recipe for disaster. And then you do start to get that kind of “holier than thou” attitude from people. And “Go fix your own self.” So that’s not the way God operates. I mean, you read the Bible, and that's not the way He operates. Religious leaders are the ones that are supposed to be, the Bible tells us that we will be judged more harshly than other people. So, we really got to keep a check on the positions of power that have been given to us. I would never tell anybody, you know, “Go fix yourself.” I would say, you know, “Let God fix you. The counsellor can help.” You know, God can use the counsellor. Some people need medication, I'm not opposed to stuff like that. But you get this sometimes, and Christians deserve it. I think, most of the Christians I know, I would say, don't go to church because they're so holy; they go to church because they're so broken. And sometimes they get a bad rap that they're holier than thou and they're perfect, and they think they look down on everybody else. Most of the Christians I know are not like that. But there has been a culture like that for probably 30, 40, 50 years, maybe even, where people did feel like they had to act a certain way or behave a certain way to be, you know, quote-unquote, “acceptable.” And that even translated into the way they dress. The way you cut your hair. The way you vote, right? And if you didn't do all of those things the exact way, then you were a failure, and then there was shame and guilt. That's just not true. That’s just not the gospel. That's not, that's not real. That's not what real biblical faith means at all. And the American Dream gospels kind of taken and twisted it, the idea of what success means in faith, and has really done way more damage than good.
Marissa: What would be your one take home point, for anybody listening, for the people listening? What would be like the one piece of advice that you'd give them?
Dave: So, I've got a bachelor's degree. I got a master's degree. I'm not the dumbest person in the world, but I know I'm not the smartest, right? So, I try to keep things pretty simple. And so, I would say, this really profound thing. s a pastor, I would tell people to love God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind, and love your neighbour as yourself. And if that sounds familiar, it's because I did not come up with that, Jesus did. If people could do those two things. If they could just focus on loving God and loving each other, man, that would make a huge change. Sometimes, we want to be right, more than we want to be compassionate. You know, why do we feel we have to be right all the time, right? Why do we have to feel like we have to be better than other people all the time? Why can't we just lay down our stuff and lift other people up? There's this whole system. The political system, the corporate system. The American dream, kind-of-ideal is about getting power, as much power as you can, right? Do whatever you can. If that's building wealth, if that's getting stuff, it's all about building power, so that you can use that to spend. That's capital that you can use to get what you want. And in many ways, it's very oppressive; it's putting people down. And I would say that the real gospel, the biblical gospel of Jesus Christ, from a Christian perspective, is that you are releasing power. You're releasing your power. And you're using the power of God, that He gives you, a supernatural power, to lift people up, right? It's not about putting people down. It's about lifting people up. And I think specifically in marriages, if we spend more time communicating with each other, and lifting each other up, we would have a lot less problems. You know, who am I? But if you're listening to this, and you are in an abusive marriage, and you are a Christian, go talk to your pastor. And if they don't listen to you, go talk to somebody else that's a godly person that you trust. There are people that will help you. There are Christian counsellors. You know, there is help available, you do not have to live this way. God never intended you to live like property or chattel, right? That's not His design for marriage. The marriage relationship is supposed to be a reflection of the relationship that God has in the Godhead, in the Trinity. In the father, son and the Holy Spirit. The marriage relationship is supposed to reflect that. And God, the Father, and Jesus, the Son, and the Holy Spirit don't abuse each other; they don't talk down each other. They don't slap each other around. They don't take advantage of each other. And so, from a Christian perspective, if you're in a Christian marriage, it's supposed to be better than a layperson or just a non-Christian marriage. And if it's not, you get some help. Just get some help. Get a counsellor. Go to your pastor. Whatever it takes, get some help.
Marissa: And if you do all that, and it's still not healthy, or it's still abusive, I have available a free safety planning guide on my website. It's http://www.marissafayecohen.com/free-resources and it should be the first one that pops up. Reach out to pastors and spiritual guides and priests to whoever you look up to. Thank you so much for saying all that, Dave. You're amazing.
Dave: Thank you for the opportunity. Like I said, I wish I was more profound and sounded a lot more holy than I do. But we know each other. I'm just Dave and we're friends. And thanks for the opportunity to hopefully speak into somebody's life.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Overcoming narcissism and healing from emotional abuse are so important to your mental health and to living a life of freedom, confidence and peace. Today, I want to talk about relationship goals. We all have a picture of our perfect relationship and our perfect partner. What we want out of a healthy relationship varies based on our specific wants and needs. Figuring out what you want, and the type of partner you want is a good way to help yourself find that person.
The qualities and characteristics of your dream partner that you focus on are the ones that come to you. We as survivors get wrapped up in the negatives that we’ve experienced and focus on those. We concentrate on the red flags we’ve experienced, the toxic traits they exhibited, and how horrible it was on their bad days. And as we continue to focus on those, we are revictimizing ourselves and attracting people that were just like them.
What were some toxic people traits that your abuser exhibited? Were they aggressive? Manipulative? Unkind to animals? Loud? Think about and identify as many as you can, because this is the last time you’re going to focus on these.
That cycle needs to stop. You deserve a healthy relationship with a partner that respects your boundaries, shows you kindness all the time, and makes you feel happy and confident. Someone who doesn’t try and break you down and control you. Love isn’t control. Love isn’t disrespect. Love isn’t explosive bursts and fighting. Love is respect. Love is kindness. Love is understanding. Love is healthy communication.
What is your definition of love? What characteristics do you want in your partner? Don’t focus on what you don’t want. Focus on what you do want.
I want to do an activity with you. I want you to take out a piece of paper or the notepad on your phone. And I want you to sit and really think about the qualities of a partner that you’re looking for. Are they funny? Do they make you smile? Do they bring home flowers or your favorite candy for you? Are they open to respectfully talking with you or debating?
Think 10 years into the future. What do you have in your healthy relationship? Do you have open communication? Do you have silly dance parties? Do you have movie nights?
For me, I need someone with opinions, someone with a sense of humor who can match my enthusiasm for comedy movies. Someone who is outgoing and kind. Someone who is low-maintenance, because a hyper person is too much for me romantically. Who loves animals, because my dogs are my babies. Someone who is communicative and understanding. Someone who is aspirational. And someone who is grounded, to help me keep my feet on the ground.
What are yours? Make your list. And really think about these qualities. After you’ve made your list, focus on those qualities. Focus on finding someone who fits your description. Where focus goes, energy flows. And if you stay positive and focus on the positive attributes of a healthy partner and a healthy relationship, the toxic people will stop being attractive to you, and you’ll stop picking toxic partners and unhealthy relationships. You’ll find your relationship goals and live happily, free and confident.
Happy Searching!
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today, I thought it would be really interesting to discuss about how abuse comes in so many different forms. It's not always obvious like being hit or pushed or punched in the face. Covert female narcissist. Sometimes it's really subtle. And it's subtle, because abusers are really, really good at manipulating and systematically demeaning you and controlling you. Covert Narcissism.And you don't even realize it until you're out of it. So, I wanted to bring on a guest today who went through a lot of control and manipulative abuse. So, it doesn't always seem like what he was enduring was abusive, which is why it was so hard for him to see it when he was in it. But now that he's out of it, he recognized all of the manipulation and the control and the lying and ultimately manifested in wife infidelity. So today, I wanted to bring on a friend of mine, Logan, who is a phenomenal person who endured some really traumatic stuff. He's a local New Jersey musician. He has a big personality. And I don't think he realized until he was out of his narcissistic marriage, how much support he actually had, and how much his community saw what was going on around him. So, I'm really, really excited to bring on Logan today. Hey, Logan, how are you doing today?
Logan: Thank you, Marissa, again, for having me for the platform. First and foremost, thank you for being there for me over these past few crazy, crazy months. Not only with what is going on in the world, but going on in my personal life, and my former, I guess marriage. But more importantly, thank you for what you do for other people who have been through way worse. Who are going through way worse situations right now, that you have helped continue to help. I know, I've had you on my show a few times. And a lot of people have taken a lot from that. I just appreciate you and what you do for other people, and what you have gone through and overcome. And just proud of you. And I'm thankful for the platform. And as you always say, you are a champion as well as your other champions.
Marissa: Well, thank you for saying that. I really appreciate it. And just know that don't ever compare what you're going through to anyone else. Because every situation has its impact and has its effect on people. And every situation is different. So, what you're going through is not any less severe or hurtful than what anyone else is going through. And I just want you to keep that in mind.
Logan: I appreciate that. You know, it's tough when one person is fighting the battle and you find that you're fighting the battle alone when the other person is doing some no stuff.
Marissa: Well, so if you don't mind, why don't you tell us your truth?
Logan: Sure. Bunch of disclaimers, obviously, I'm not going to go too much into my identity, because I was going to say out of respect, respect is definitely not the word. Out of doing things the right way, I think is the way to say it, I am not here to call anyone out to call any establishments out. I'm not here to play the blame game, I am here to hopefully give something to people who may be going through similar situations on both sides of what what's going on here. If I can help one or two people, and also heal during this, that's a big deal. So again, I appreciate you. I appreciate this. I guess we'll start at the beginning. I kind of broke this up into like three little sections. You know, I'll tell you the story. Kind of the ripple effect because I think as you probably know, there's a lot of ripple effects to family and friends and no other people involved that you see. And then obviously I want to talk about, if it's okay with you the healing which you have been a huge part of and currently being a huge part of. So start at the beginning. So, 10-year relationship, four and a half years married, started out as me trying out for a local jersey band. Obviously I got the gig because I’m an amazing drummer. And she had come on to me. And let me let me say this. I know a bunch of disclaimers here, but there's three sides to every story. And, you know, they say my side her side and the truth. So, this is my side of the story. So, starting from the beginning. So tried out for the band got the part she had come on to me. Uh, we had hung out all the time all the time. On home the constant Facebook messaging. Calling me Boo from the get go. Going she went to the mall invited me to come. This grew into a very, very good friendship, great band relationship. Obviously, a marriage. This was best friends. This was doing everything together. This was working together. This was going through loss together. This was she came home from work. Hey, where are you? This was, hey, come to bed. This is, you know, What do you love about me? This was very real or so I thought because 10 years invested of my life that I will never get back to have it end the way it did. As dishonestly as it did. As deceiving as it did. I'll never get those 10 years back, as a lot of people have told me to give and take was very off in this relationship. And that's something I'll get into later. But to me, this was the real deal. Very good relationship. We this all kind of started with a job change. She was approached to work at a new establishment. Prominent Music Academy in a prominent city. Very good opportunity for her. I was 100% supportive of it. It's something she's been looking for and it was great. The money was right, the benefits were right. It was something that she was excited about. And I was excited for her. She had to break the news to our former job that she was leaving. That turned into a terrible he-said she-said, almost break-up fight. Where I went to bat for her, I stood up for her, I took the fall. I ended up quitting that particular job because of that whole thing. So, she could get this new job. And she appreciated that, you know. I still have letters from very recently that say, hey, like, I appreciate that. And you make me a better person and all this stuff that I believed to be very, very true. Because this wasn't something like you know, I'm sure a lot of the other people you talk to, where things are falling apart or things are abusive, or things are crumbling, or communication is breaking down. This just kind of was like a light switch. It kind of happened. So, she gets the new job is working crazy full-time hours. And I knew this would be an adjustment for her. I knew this would be an adjustment for us because again, everything together and she gets the new job and is working there for about five weeks. And through this, I was able to kind of help transition from the other job and deal with the fallout of that. Helped her a bit financially because there was some downtime for work for her between jobs. Again, you know, being a husband, that is just what you do no question. So, the hours are different. She's not home as much. And I noticed this. So, I suggest to her, “Hey, like, let's do a date night every week because we're kind of passing ships in the night,” or whatever, you know, I don't think anything's going on. But I noticed, you know, I'm smart, unfortunately, because I do believe ignorance is bliss. But every week she would take me out or I would take her out when we'd alternate. So we did that for a couple weeks. So, at this point, like I said, she's working there for about five weeks and it's an adjustment. You know, it's great. We had some great date nights, I thought everything was good. You know, like the only little things I had noticed was like, I wasn't on her social media as much which again, like in this day and age I my tastes on social media and posting all that stuff have very much changed. I shamelessly promote my projects. I'll be the first to admit that but I think there's a lot of disadvantages to social media when it comes to kind of having the next person in a relationship kind of queued up or talking and that's something, I don't like about it. That's kind of soured me. But anyway, I noticed I wasn't really int the social media of hers as much whatever you know, even like when she wished me happy birthday was very just like whatever. So we do the date nights and this is like the fourth date night it's my turn she's working there for again only five weeks and this is a place that is walkable from our home. This is a place that is two blocks away from where I work which again makes it so much crazier that physically she was so close, I should say they were close, this whole time we do the date night I said what do you want to do you want to see Frozen II know let's stay in and I was like alright, well, What movie do you want me to Redbox? I'll cook your dinner she I gave her some choices. She said Toy Story 4. Have you seen this comes into play? Have you seen Toy Story or any of the toy stories Marissa?
Marissa: I've seen the first three. I'm afraid to watch the fourth. Admittedly.
Logan: You know the story of Toy Story where Woody is the old faithful toy. Whereas Buzz Lightyear is the new shiny toy that you know Andy kind of falls in love with. I know you haven't seen the fourth one, but we ended up watching the fourth one that night. It's a three-hour movie. I cook her dinner, we stay at home. This is November 21, Marissa, one week before Thanksgiving, and she's noticeably texting for three hours. To me, that's a red flag, because we have all the same friends, obviously, except the new friends from the new job. And I know it's not her sister, who now identifies as transgender. And, again, is just one of the closest people in my life. And it is a big part of the story moving forward, I think, because again, there's a ripple effect, and it affects everybody. I know it's not her, because it's too late for that. And I kind of like get those red flags like those warning signals. You know, it's not high school, I'm not going to choose her. I'm not going to grab her phone. It's because like, we've never had that. We've been together for 10 years, like, I've held this girl's hand through every little problem financially, or with her family. Like heck, so I just shoot her a look. This day night, we're working on us. And she's texting the whole thing. And that's not like us, you know, like, we text we're on our phones or whatever, like during movies, or we watch our TV shows every week. But this was like, almost obviously blatant. From everybody that I've talked to everybody, including people who have been cheated on, dude, she wanted you to notice. Bro, she wanted you to catch her. Because this wasn't an honest conversation. This was a this is an oops, and this is how you're going to find out kind of thing. Looking back on that, you know, they always say hindsight is 20-20. But anyway, she sets in for three hours during the movie. Hey, thanks for dinner. I, really quick, a shot her a look, kind of like, Hey, what's up? And she shot me just kind of like a nasty little look. Which is fine. You know, like, tough girl, whatever, that's fine. And you know, I didn't bring it up. I didn't say anything. You know. So, watch the movie, thanks for dinner. She went to bed I cleaned up. She's under the covers texting for another hour. So, this is four hours of texting, like doesn't address it. You know, the only thing I did was give her that glance. Something's wrong. Like, when you have that mentality in a way that is cheating. I don't know how you feel about that. Especially in a marriage.
Marissa: Cheating. In my opinion, I don't view cheating is just a physical thing. Like I can, I can have feelings for somebody very intense feelings, and not act on them. But that's still doing a disservice to the situation or the relationship that I'm in.
Logan: Yeah, exactly. Or marriage. You know, in my case, marriage where we've, we've made a commitment, like my grandfather had married us, that means a lot to me. You know, the ring, being a circle and all that kind of stuff. You know, everyone has different views on marriage and stuff like that. But I took it very seriously. You know, you say the word you say these vows because they are vows. It's an oath, you say for better or for worse, because in situations such as this, you know, like, you try your best. You fight. And for me anyway, it was for better or for worse. And I definitely went down swinging like an idiot, as you'll find out. And again, this is not the end of the story. This is the very beginning. So, I hope you don't cut me off. So, moving forward, so this is four hours of texting. So, I feel it in my gut, and I just go sleep on the couch. Like, you know, like you ever kick someone out of the bed Marissa It's like, you're in trouble, like, Go sleep on the couch. But it wasn't even like that, like I just couched myself. You know, I didn't like, you know, like, I was going to jump to conclusions. And I just went and I was just thinking. Like, in my gut I felt like there's like, you can't be talking to someone else. Like, she's got this new job like you worry about new people and 4:30 in the morning, she comes in the living room. "Hey, like, where are you? Like, what's going on? Why aren't you in bed?” I go, “I'm just thinking.” She goes, "Well, what are you thinking about?” And I go, “Something's wrong. I was like, I feel it in my gut.” And she goes into the whole, "Hey, it’s this new job. Like, it's a big adjustment.” And I knew it was like, to be fair, it completely was. That's why I proposed date night, you know, that wasn't, you know, it's like more lies, you know, and like, she doesn't really lie, and she's a bad liar. So again, it was like, this is like the beginning of feeling like, I don't know this person. So, I just look at her and I just go Is there someone else? And she just starts crying, which to me tells me everything. So, there's a bunch of ways I could have handled this. Looking back in retrospect, I know this sounds terrible, but this is just the beginning of the story. Like, I should have just said this is not okay. Like get out of here.
Marissa: And like you said before hindsights 20-20 so you in your character would never do that. Because you truly believed the best in situation. And it's so easy to write off and justify as well. Maybe it is a new job or maybe she's just stressed or… It's so easy for us when we're being manipulated or lied to justify on behalf of the person who's lying to us, because we want to believe that it's the person that we fell in love with. Or, you know that, that person is still there deep down. Does that make sense?
Logan: I mean, you're hitting me right in all the feels right now. Like, I appreciate you saying that no, because like you hit it right on the head. Like, I'm a fixer. You know what I mean? Like, something's wrong, how can I help? And again, I am not perfect. And I'm not here to toot my own horn. But this is our challenge in our marriage right now. Now, let me see this. Is there someone else? She starts crying. My whole life changed that moment. And it was like those hours I was thinking. I knew, you know? Like, I knew it. And I say, “Who is it?" It's a chick. It was a chick she worked with for five weeks. So, to me, first of all, that's okay. That sucks. You're still my wife. You know, this is our thing. Let's figure this out. And I was upset. Like, I was upset. I wasn't angry. I wasn't crying. I was just kind of like, quiet. She goes, “Why aren't you yelling at me? Like, why are you mad?” Like, almost like she expected it, you know, like me to freak out. And I think, had things been the other way. You know, if I had done something like that, or not cry, I feel like I would literally have my head chopped off right now. Like, I'm not even joking. Yeah, it was crazy. So, to me, you know, we ended up going to bed together with kind of like this problem. And I woke up the next day and this is November 22. And I called my roommate from college who was a marriage counselor, because to me, I'm a fixer. She's confused. She's going through something, it garners sympathy at this point. In my mind, this is just a feeling. She had said to me, it's just a crush, and I'm confused. Okay. Now looking back, I take everything with a grain of salt. Looking back because of the series of lies when you lie to me so many times, if you get caught in a lie with me, the trust is broken. If I catch you with your hand in the cookie jar, anything you say to me afterwards is a lie, which I've learned firsthand. But anyway, I'm on the phone with the roommate, marriage counsellor, I'm on the phone with ministers from my church who have been fantastic. And my roommate, who's like, “Hey, man, I'm going to take off my friend hat. Look, man, I gotta call right down the middle. This is what you do. You need to write down a list of things and in our marriage, this is not okay. Not necessarily what she's going through. But the way she has acted. Like, for example, you guys are having a date night. You guys are working on you. So just the fact that she is texting somebody else, whoever it may be during date night, that's not okay. The fact that it's someone she's interested in, not okay, for a marriage.” You know, you hear things from like a counsellor or a therapist, it's like, you know, they call it very down the middle. And they kind of have like that outsider looking in kind of thing, which is very cool to hear. And he goes, “Let me talk to her too.” So, I speak to her about it. I do write the whole, that's not okay, I write this whole little thing that I do end up reading to her. So, I bring it up to her to talk to him and she doesn't do it, like immediately, like she waits like a week. And this is the weird thing where it's like, this is another red flag. Like, I felt like I was fighting, you know, like fighting still. Not to like fix anything. Let me say this. Don't be afraid to be who you are. If you are gay, or straight or trans or whatever, be who you are. I'm not saying like, I have no expertise in it. But I have a lot of people on my show who have gone through things like this who have said like, how scared they were when they had to come out. I've had wrestlers come on. Former women's tag team champions and major companies that are a couple. And those ladies have had just inspiring coming out parties on national television and stuff like that. Like I'm all for it. Please. and I said these words to her. I said, No one should have to hide who they are. Honesty is the best policy. There's a way this all could have played out where it would have been hard for us to be friends, I think, but you had my support. There was a way for this, or this came out where you had my family’s support. There was a way where this went down where you had our mutual friends support. So, it just felt like I was fighting here. And she had one foot out the door. It was like that I caught her texting and like now it was like okay for her to be distant from me. And this is where it got weird because this is leading into Thanksgiving. But like, she wouldn't like come home. You know what I mean? Like she goes work for eight hours and then like go to the gym or go to the studio, which is like normal, but like, she would like stack them in blocks. So, like she would come home and I'm thinking its guilt or she's hiding or she's really having a tough time. Which I got. You know, again, I was sympathetic. What comes next? I don't know, I was just trying to fix everything. And maybe it wasn't my place, but I still went down swinging. So, the following week Thanksgiving. She finally ends up talking to my roommate, the marriage counsellor. And he says to her, she needs to go to therapy, not for what she's going through. But for a lot of things. The plan was come Thanksgiving. The plan was to talk to the family. And just because they knew we were going through something. Like even hers, because I teach her sister at the time drum lessons. And she would go, Hey, she's not texting me. She's ignoring me. And I'm like, it's not just you kid. Like, it's everybody. Like our band is getting offered shows. And like, she's not checking in. We have like a comicon group, she's not checking in. And like, again, goes to like, now we're not getting shows or like now we're not getting events. And like, I'm kind of like protecting her. I'm like not saying anything. Like she's going through something. So, everyone's just kind of thinks like we're fighting. But it was just like a light switch. And it was just like, we're at an impasse. She just got further and further away. Wouldn't come home. I talked to the dad and she's well aware of this, who I'm very close with, Thanksgiving morning. And I said, Hey, like, I just wanted you to know I did right by your daughter. Like, I haven't done anything. She's going through something, please take care of her. Please support her. I can't say what it is. He goes, “What did she do?" And to me, like, that speaks volumes. He's like, you came to me. He's like, if I thought you did something wrong, I would have been over your apartment. But anyway, Thanksgiving. So, the plan is, we're going to speak to her family and say, “Hey, we're going through something, she's going to go to therapy, which there is no shame in that.” And we were going to say this to the family. So, this is the day after Thanksgiving. This is Thanksgiving too, with her family. And again, we're it's just like, the phone is like buzzing, buzzing, buzzing, it's noticeably like painfully buzzing vibrating on the coffee table. And like, we're all just like kind of looking at it. And she's not picking up and it's super awkward. Nothing. Nothing. No, no, no, it again, it's just like, like, lie after lie and crazy shenanigans. But basically, I text her I'm like, hey, like, you know, like, are you going to say something? And she's like, No, I want to leave on the phone. So, we left. We didn't say anything. My thought was also like, hey, honesty's the best policy, like we don't have to say everything. But we could say, Hey, we're going through something, you know, we can approach this as a family. But again, still, to this day, I don't know how much, which is very unfair to me, her family does or does not know. Because I am still getting, “Hey, how are you guys doing okay, during this whole thing?” and I'm just like, you know, it's not my place to say anything. It's certainly not my side of the story. It's just kind of like, I'm good. You know, it's just, it's so unfair and crazy, but I haven't even got to the coup de gras yet. This is just the warm up. But I'll fast forward a little bit. Two weeks in, she feels farther away. Like she's not eating. I'm not eating. We're both like kind of sad. I’m doing a lot of stupid things, Marissa. I re-proposed. I redid our proposal. I had done flowers going up the beach and the music and the video. Got down on one knee. All these things. So, I recreated that, I had the roses going up into our apartment. I bought like a super expensive like necklace that was like about commitment and yada. And like, like if I'm going down, I'm going down swinging. If I'm going down, I’m going down swinging. And like I cook dinner, she comes home from work relay follows the roses, she's into it, I get down on one knee again. Now this is what annoys me, I'm an idiot for these grand gestures. Like anyone listening, like, if you're like a person who give, gives, gives, kind of look back and see what you're getting as well. Like, don’t be selfish. But don't be so selfless that you're blind because everyone you know; you get those opinions. And everyone says the give and take was way off. And it was never going to work because of that, which I which I learned firsthand. I'm mad at myself Because as I mentioned earlier that I spent 10 years working on this, taking care of and protecting and looking out for this person. And then I'm madder that I did it again. To me that's just like an ultimate gesture of, I'm going to take care of you. I don't know how to explain it. You know, like, I literally gave so many pieces of my heart away, maybe to a fault. That was the way I love her. And that was the way like I would always give things to her and I got down on one knee for her two times. Looking back, I'm just like, man, and she. She came in for the second proposal. She was blown away and she appreciated me trying there were some tears. But she didn't like look at the necklace like at all. Like you know how you like you look at the ring like she didn't look at it. And she kind of like I'm sitting on the floor and she's like, she's like kind of unsure about it. And then she like goes and eats and I'm just like sitting in the dark on the living floor. And that was like another thing that like made me feel like just like I was fighting by myself. Especially after this grand gesture. Next couple days. I'm over my buddy’s who a huge part of my life I played in bands with we play music together. He played our wedding. He'll be playing my divorce party. Yeah, I'm over there. And I, earlier in the day because like I mentioned, we weren't eating, I dropped her off a vegan pork roll, egg and cheese. And I said, Hey, like, make sure you eat. I left it with her boss who who's trying to hire me. It's like, Oh, you should come work here too. I'm like, No, no, like, this is her thing. She loves it here. I mean, you know, I left a rose, because again, like, I'm an idiot. And she calls me when she gets out of work. After eight-hour shift on Saturday night, I'm over my buddy Ed’s. And she's like, Hey, thank you so much. Like, that meant a lot to me and was like, Yeah, like, I know, you weren't eating and like, I know, we're going through a lot and, you know, just no drama. Like, I want to make sure you eat. She's like, yeah, I'm like, did you eat the whole thing? Yep, ate the whole thing. Okay, great. And she goes, Okay, well, I'm going to go, go get a bite to eat. And I'm just like, again, it was just like, like, the wording of things. And like, everything was just kind of like dancing around. And I go, well, like, like, I just brought you food. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, you know, again, it's like more red flags. She goes, Well, yeah, but I know just eight but I'm going to go out with some friends. I'm like, like, why don't you just say that the first time you know what I mean? It's shady. And then I go is like, is so and so going to be there. You know, the confusion? Well, yeah, but it's going to be like, Oh, look, I'll come home if you want. And I'm like, Look, like I said, a minute ago. Like, this isn't high school. Like, this is your life now. Like, I'm not going to tell you like not to go out with your friends, whatever. I come home, she's in the home for like, another five hours. Like, it's crazy. You don't just like, go do what you want, like, you still live with me. You're still married. Like, we need to communicate a lot more because I'm obviously like, still fighting. Like, we're at the point where I caught you texting and you're confused about something. But that's where we are. No further. Or that's where I thought we were. The word we kind of went away after I caught her texting. We have a like a fight about it. And we don't really fight about it a lot. But we had a fight about it. I legit that you know that on my part, I would like to first to admit it, like we fought and I said, Hey, say what's up to so and so for me, whatever, you know, which was the object of her affection and still seemingly so. You know, she was hurt by that. And she came at me, which again, garnered more sympathy for me like, well, this is why like I you know, I wake up every day, I feel like I'm a different person. Like, again, legit going through something. Like, this is why I thought has these dark thoughts about ending it, and yada, yada. And she goes into a very detailed description about how she had some very dark thoughts. And to me all of my feelings and emotions and thoughts about our us, and our relation went right out the window. We're in the middle of a fight. Come here. Come here, sit down. Are you okay? Like whatever. She goes on about it, and she’s actually confused, going through something. I mean, anyone would feel sympathy. It’s like, again, trying to fix things. I immediately text her parents. She didn't me too. What if something had happened? And I didn't say anything to anyone. So, I'm thinking, Oh, they'll come over when they just see my texts They just said, oh, like she should go to therapy. I'm just like, UGH! You know what I mean? Like, that's where we were two weeks ago. It's just like, and I can't say anything. Like, I'm protecting her. She's going through something and I can't, we can't make progress. And again, I realize now that I was the only one trying to make progress. She was headed in a different direction. Here's a little foreshadowing. She ends up staying with her parents for the weekend, which to me is like, awesome. Like, I was like, I will drive you there. To me She is safe. She's with them. I know she's going home to them. And she can have a dialogue with them about anything. She comes back the next day, just to pick something up and she texts me Hey, is it okay? If I come over? I'm like, like, you live here. I'm like, I didn't kick you out. I'm like, are you okay? She comes She parks. She's going to stay at her parents. Another couple night, she's going to pick up some stuff. And I know she's coming from work and like an idiot I go out I opened the car door for. I am old school and I hold her hand. I walk up the steps open the door, and I look at her hand. Her wedding ring is off. I know she's working with this person; you know what I mean? And like, to me, that's just like another like little step. Hey, my wedding rings off. I'm like, what is the dialogue between.. I mean, is there a dialogue? Like, there can't be a dialogue. Like, I know, there's a lot of texting and like, is its romantic texting? And like, surely this person who I left out a huge detail here Marissa, this person is also in a relationship or so I was told. Which is not okay. So, you have a married woman and a person in a relationship. I don't know what the dialogue is or how this said person I will use the term Buzz Lightyear you know, being the new shiny toy. Like, you know, someone's married, you know, like, I don't know how you I don't know how that conversation goes. And this is like where I kind of talked to you about this Marissa. But it felt like the texting was very aggressive. And it felt like somebody else like it really still almost does feel like somebody else was driving. You know, like, I obviously wasn't driving. She did a lot of the drive but it almost felt very controlling.
Marissa: So, there is a theme when specifically, kids in high school, I used to teach this to them. When your partner is texting you over and over and over or calling you over and Over and over. That is, like you said, it's a means of control. It's a way to make sure you know where they are, what they're doing, at all times. And so, I can't really comment on whether Buzz Lightyear if you will, was being controlling in reality, but in theory, that action, those actions do sum up to typically be abusive behavior.
Logan: First of all, like, just like the fact that like, 10 years of me doing everything, like you don't even have to hear from me, everyone will tell you like doing living my life, literally her uncle's words for her. Which I did, to a fault. You know, how much you rank, you know, like this person you've known at the start of the texting. Five weeks, now we're going on seven weeks, eight weeks, that person ranks over me. You know what I mean? And it's just like, like, it takes me a while to trust someone as a friend, you know? Like, so again, that was like another red flag, it was very quick. And that's another thing that made it feel like controlling and this person just outright like disrespecting our marriage and that person, Buzz Lightyear’s relationship or alleged relationship at the time. And this going on with a place that they both work at, which I think is, you know, that's, again, you don't want that coming back to the place you work at, or she's not wearing her ring. To me, that's just like, oh, like, you are out. And this is someone like I'm away for two days, like, she's texting me constantly. Where are you? Where are you? Like, I couldn't be away for hours without this girl missing me. It's again, like a light switch. Like this person. not to say changed her, obviously, you know, allegedly, she has some repressed feelings. It was just like a done deal. Like, she's at her parents for a couple days not wearing the ring. I'm super upset about the ring thing. I'm talking to my minister. And he's just kind of like, man, like, even He's like, Damn, you know. So, the man of God. So basically, she's at her parents for a couple days. And this is where things get a little weird, like her mom calls me about concerning the younger daughter's, who identifies as a boy now rather drugless. And it was something very trivial. And I was like, hey, okay, cool. And the mom goes, so house, I'll just say your wife, not the new names, how's your wife doing? And I said, I don't know. How is she? And she goes, she didn't come home last night? And I said, No. And I'm like, she's not with you? No. So to this day, I don't know where my wife was that night. You know what I mean? But this is two weeks after I caught her texting. You know, it's just so fast. So, like, my head is still spinning. That's not okay. We all text her and said, Hey, like, what if something happened to you? Like, none of your family knew where you were. That's not okay. And it turned into I was at a party, I ended up crashing in a guest room. So, we're and again, it was like, this is like not marriage behavior. You know what I mean? This is like, like high school, college. But you know what I mean? It was just like, no accountability. And again, she was hiding from everyone and couldn't get back to anyone. So again, it wasn't like just me being pushed away. I gave her space, and it was just like radio silence. You know, it was really, really weird. And I'm just like, super confused. I know, I'm losing my wife, apparently, like I'm losing my wife to someone else. But there's like, no way that she confused. She's going through something like I sympathize with her. Like, she's not answering anybody. So, this is where things get crazy. So, I, Marissa I am like sleeping on couches. I am staying with my dad. I'm going up to Brooklyn. I'm living out of a suitcase, which I ended up living out of for months. That's what you do for someone you love. You know, this was the deal breaker for me. So, this is December 19. I believe things happen for a reason. And the way this day played out. Like I, the night before, like two nights before, like, I was hurting, like food didn't have tastes. I knew like I was losing her. Like I didn't think I was like, physically losing her to somebody. Yeah, because it just had been too short of a time and we're married and oh, I’ll rewind to do this very important detail. This is like three weeks after texting someone she had said, like, hey, like, I want to get a separation. And she'd come home from work. And I was like, this is like right after she said she had the dark thoughts. I was rubbing her back and I had said, Hey, like no drama, no drama, like I tried to show her like I loved her in a different way. Like I care about you this and especially with the dark thoughts and all that and she kind of disappeared and kitchen and we have a small kitchen. She never came out. I went in there and she was rubbing her hands. Now the rubbing her hands kind of comes into play a little bit later. But it's kind of like a tell, you know? But she's rubbing her hands and like, Hey, no drama, what's going on? She goes, I think we need separation. Like, what? Like, this fast? You're confused about something and it was weird because she was like looking back now. She was like, I think I'm 70% gay. I think I'm 80% gay. And like, I told her I was like, Well look, the only thing I ask is that we are honest with everybody because I need to heal. I need a support system and I'd been protecting her for the most part to this point and our bands getting shows. And then, she's just like nowhere to be found on answering her family and, like, we have to tell your family and she's just like curled up into a ball. I was I wasn't even yelling or anything. No, no, no, like, horrified at the thought of telling her family and I understand like, whatever. So that was like another crazy night. So, the ring, her wanting to get separation is like, I didn't do anything. You know what I mean? Like, we were doing fine until she got this news. Like new job, new person, boom, like, just like that. Six days before Christmas, Thursday night. I'm working at my job. Long day. And I'm going through my notebook, little green notebook, I look at the back of it. And there's all these cute little messages from her like, that's us. And this was, like, very recent, like, probably like, right when she started the new job, but these are reasons. And it said our names forever and Heart, heart and my name love her name. I was like, I have to talk to her like maybe it's goodbye. Maybe it's like one last grand gesture made again, which I'm an idiot for the grand gestures and I'm a sucker and for me, like I have to let her know how I feel like I can't do this without her. I literally said this to her dad on the phone. Rough day at work, and of texting my friend. He's like, Look, man, he's like sometimes those little conversations make all the difference in the world. And to anyone listening, communication is super key. And we completely failed at that. We completely failed mostly because of her not being honest. Mostly because of her hiding. Us spending time apart. You know, I'm sure I could have communicated better. But there's a lot of emotions. I tested last week my friend he says those little conversations make all the difference in the world. So, I text my buddy. I have the best friends in the world, Marissa. My buddy who I was jamming with, that I mentioned earlier, he didn't really know what was going on. He knew something was going on. Because again, I was like protecting her. I was like, Hey, man, I was like, grab the guitars because you played our wedding. So, he knew he knew exactly what song. I’m texted her mom. She is at her parents baking cookies with the kid’s sister. I need a hail Mary, are you in? And like I have the best friends in the world. He goes Yeah, I’m in. Let me know where when to me. That means everything. You know, we're going to do this thing where he knew what song we're ready to go. This is the grand gesture. This is the say anything, on the front lawn with the boombox, whatever, get through work. He's ready to go. So, when things go bonkers, crazy. I start my car to go over to her parents. Car doesn't start. Okay, that's weird. Doesn't start again. I'm stuck 45 minutes. Dad has to come get me jumped the car. We go back to his house. I steal his car. The timeline has completely changed. I taught I'm talking to her dad on the phone, who again, I'm very close with. Apparently, she was able to have a conversation with him about what was going on. And he goes Hey, man, like she just went home, to where our apartment is. My friend was out of the equation at that point. But it's okay, I'm going to go there and just have a conversation with her. I have like legit questions like, legit, like, wanted to communicate. And I text her "Hey, can I come get my pillow?” Like, don't hear anything back, driving. I’m on the phone with her pops and yeah, her kind of knows now. So, like we're having an honest conversation. And I'm like, you don't think like she's doing anything with anyone, though. Like, she's just like going through something and figuring something out. He's like, no, like, No, not at all, whatever. And I'm like, Alright, I drive over there with no response to the text message. This is the ending of this long story to anyone listening who thinks they know someone, or thinks they can trust someone on a friendship level or a spouse level or human level. This is when I knew that I was less than nothing. I got no response to the text. I drive to our apartment. I am across the street from our apartment, I see the lights on. According to her dad, she had just gotten home. I'm not going to barge in, you know, I pick up the phone I call. Rings, rings, rings. I see the lights on the apartment. And I see the blinds go up and down. And again, just like with the tears, like I knew. I knew that there was someone in my home with my wife. It wasn't anger. It was it was pain. I call again, lines go up and down again. And so, this is all within 30 seconds spans. And this is just like again, the bad movie script. The lie after lie after lie. And I walk up the parking lot. I walk up the steps. And as I'm walking up the steps, this is all within 30 seconds of me getting there, the phone calls and the blinds, calls me on the phone. This is what I get Marissa. Sleepy Voice “Hey, whoa, hey, hey, Logan. Hey, what do you what's? What's going on?" Like, you didn't get my text? Like, it was like you were sleeping. You know, trying to be like asleep. I was like, "Hey, just talk to your dad. No, you just got home and I see the blinds going up and down. I you know, I text you get my stuff.” Okay. Oh, yeah, no problem. So, I unlocked the door. I pushed the door open the door stops with her hand. She's standing there in her PJs. The TV's off, everything's off. The lights are on. Holding the door with my pillow. And all of our wedding photos are down. Like you cannot write this. I mean, this is my home, like I have my suitcase, I have my guitar. There is no way like why I'm doing this. You're having sleepovers, there's no way. But like, I just see all the pictures. It was like, if you want a gut punch, if you want to feel less than nothing, if you want to feel like you wasted 10 years of your life, being a friend, let alone a husband, or a band member or anything to anyone if you want to feel less than nothing, just looking around and seeing all the pictures down. Like I knew, like I knew. And this wasn't a first-time thing like because, you know, this person had to be if she had just gotten this person had to be waiting in our apartment. Like the fact that all the pictures were down and in her pajamas hands me my pillow, “Have a good night, Logan.” And like, like, that's the end of the conversation. And I said hold on. I was like, “Hey, can I come in and talk like I really want to talk to you. I want to get my stuff like I want to get my razor on get my charger…” “Now's not a good time.” “Is there someone here?” She goes, “Logan It's been a very long day, I was able to speak to my parents about what's going on. Finally.” Which is great. In reality, and goes like, "I just needed someone to talk to.” Which to me, admits that there's someone in our apartment right now. Which to me killed me on not just on a, there's someone in my home, what's going on level. But like, on an emotional level, like I needed someone to talk to. I said, like, when you talk to your parents, like I'll be there for you. And like, it's like you're confiding in this person that you haven't even known for, I guess you’ve known for a little over a month. Like you're confiding, like, again. I think there's a very big difference between what you're going through. And that doesn't excuse your behavior towards me or our home, or our marriage. Especially our home. That's a whole different conversation. But I go is it who I think it is? She goes, we're just hanging out Logan, which again made me feel like some you say your parents. And, again, made me feel like the dad and again is like another lie. Like, I know what hanging out me. Do you know what I mean? And it's just like, this wasn't the first time like, I could just send the blinds went up. I like I knew and like, because you're married? Our home, I go in our bed? Doesn't someone who has an answer for everything doesn't say a word. Just like she doesn't even look the same. She looks like a completely different person. Like I don't know how to explain it. Like, this is not the person I knew. Not just your actions, but like you look completely different than like… and he was just like, this is December 19. Six days before Christmas. I just, like gave her like the most, how could you look and I just walked away. She follows me out the door And lie, lie, lie. Like, I believe you after I caught you? After all this stuff? Like, you pick up the phone, you pretend you're tired. Like you know what I mean? Like, wide awake. This is the last thing that I ever said to her. So, this is December 19 the last thing that I ever said to her. Right now, the only communication she has with me is through my sister, And through my lawyer. I said I've taken care of you for the past 10 years. I've buried your pets. I've held your hand through every little obstacle in your life. I have pulled you out of the ocean twice. And I said you don't have a leg to stand on. That’s the last thing I ever said to her and I walked away
Marissa: How did that feel?
Logan: Surreal. It's it felt like two things. The first thing was like I felt like an idiot. I felt like not just because of that but like for like I just put so much into it. It was just so disrespectful and if you take me out of the equation, like take me like my feelings out of the equation. In our home? ln our bed? Like when I went to get my stuff, Marissa, like I kept my head down. I got my stuff out of there. But when I saw the bed and how close it was to my stuff and like you know, I kind of have like my logos, and drums, and my jerseys, and like there it was just like I don't know this person. And you are not thinking about the ramifications of this. You are not thinking how this affects my relationship your family. You are not thinking about how this affects the place you work at. You obviously could give a crap about the band because that fell apart like immediately. It was just like at what cost, you know? Like this is something she has repressed This is something she needed to find this assumption needed to do. Okay, there was a way we could have done this the proper way paperwork, honesty, communication, not in my bed. To answer your question. Another way I felt was like all this like pain that I was feeling and like heartbreak. It just went away. It was like a load off my shoulders. I was like, I'm an idiot like I'm a fool. That's the worst thing that you can do to someone in a in a relationship in a marriage regardless And I asked you this Marissa, like, I don't think her situation excuses her behavior. Especially in the timeframe, the dishonesty, the lie after lie after lie, and especially the where. You know, this person would absolutely not take a bullet for me like, no question. But this person, like, could give a crap about me. And that is that is kind of the end of, there's a little bit of fall out. But that is kind of the end of the story for me. Again, I just don't feel that that excuses putting me in this position. I've lost my home, I've essentially lost a big part of my family, you know, you hate to say it, but like, things are not going to be the same. And it was just like, I can't understand what she was going through. But I don't think I deserved to be treated the way I was or lied to. Especially it was just like, new job, new person, new person in my home. I haven't been more disrespected ever in my life. And the fact that it's in my home, which I love, and built, and so many things have happened there. I just don't think one thing excuses the other.
Marissa: No, I totally agree and this is a really, really, really bad analogy. It's similar to when Kevin Spacey came out of the closet because he was accused of assaulting Anthony Rapp, who I've mentioned in previous podcast episodes is like one of my favorite Broadway actors. But when he came out and said, Oh, well, you know, surprise, I'm gay. I did that because I'm gay. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You don't do horrible things and treat people with disrespect and do bad things to people Because you identify with the LGBTQ community. Not only does that do a horrible thing, for the LGBTQ community, you are doing a grave disservice to the people who have been fighting for basic human rights and decency and respect. And you are literally shitting on those efforts. But also, that's a scapegoat, and that's gaslighting. And that's horrible. So, back to what you were saying. No. her sexuality or sexual identity should not affect the way she treats her husband, or you or anyone. Those two things are mutually exclusive.
Logan: I mean, I lived it. I feel that way. And again, like it's funny, Marissa because that metaphor you've used. So many people have used that same exact metaphor like that. I've spoken to the Kevin Spacey example. That particular one, it's crazy that you said that. Like I've heard that from so many people. And that's, that's how I feel. Again, I've said this a million times, there's a way to do this, like, you want it out, like you wanted to drop me like a bad habit. There's someone new, you know, Logan's out new person and like I lived it to the fact where it was in my apartment. You know, I don't know what's going on. But it has completely uprooted everything I have built for the past 10 years. And that's fine. You know, I want to talk about the healing a little bit. It was like I was falling, you know, and every single person I know, including her family are just like here for me. Usually with these things. You get sides. And you get he said she said, Well, everyone's like, hey, like, your good guy. You're good man. And like, to me, it's just like, like, that's great. But like you get sick of hearing it, because you're just like, that's why I was a doormat, because, you know, people mistake kindness for weakness. Like, it literally happened to me. You know, this is after I went to battle for her so many times or stepped up or gave her the princess treatment. I was less than dirt. You know, I didn't matter. I think maybe it was easier for her to do it that way. But just because suddenly, you know, that happens to people. I wish I hadn't spent 10 years of my life on something that would end like this. She took someone into our home. That's how it ended. And to me that's like, the ultimate not even slap in the face. That's an understatement. It's just disrespectful. And you don't realize the ripple effect. Like my family, they have done everything to take care of her. Like I said, like we bought that bed, we built that bed. It's weird. Like, everyone kind of checks in you kind of get that hindsight’s 20-20. They're all kind of like, yeah, we're good. Like, we're good on her. You know, my uncle called me on Christmas. He's like, yeah, like you shouldn't try to go back. You know what I mean? Like, her family with me is all like, we want to keep you and like come over anytime. And then they gave me like the best Christmas presents. Like I finally got them in like March because I hadn't seen them. And her dad had passed something down to me and her little brother had given me like this momentum that I keep on me all the time. And every single card said your family no matter what your family. And it's just amazing. It's overwhelming. It's confusing. You've experienced love in so many different ways. Like when I moved out, I had six guys with me and they just man they had my they knew that was a hard day for me. Especially when we're in the bedroom and It's like we're mushy now. Like everyone's in there telling me their problems and like we all fall in love you, bro. Love you. And it's just like, it's so sappy and mushy. I'm so appreciative of the people who are real, you know, the people who are honest, like the people I really do trust. Because like I say, hindsight is 20-20. You look back. The things that her family has said about her. Like, I've heard the I've heard the words coward. I've heard the words immature. I've heard combinations of words that I cannot say on your show, from, you know, like mutual friends that that have taken it very personally. Not only because what she did to me to our home, but she's flat out abandoned them as well. You know, it was a new job, new period, it was just like all for this one person, which again, is very strange to me. I never got anything from her in terms of an apology. The night after, so it would be the morning after I caught her. I got a text about talking about it and she knew I was mad, wasn't an apology. It was, “I know you're mad, but let's talk about it at this time, this place with my dad.” I didn't answer. And then I got an email, two months almost to the day after catching her. And then I got an email saying, “I know things got crazy. And I know you're probably angry, and you sit on top, and I understand but…” Like, things got crazy? Like, you're not even owning anything.
Marissa: Do you think That's a way for her to manipulate the situation. I'm not trying to lead you, I’m just asking.
Logan: Oh, I 100% do, because in interactions that I've had with her through my lawyer, and through my sister, there has been so many like little things. I'm like, Alright, well, this is this. And she owes me this. And she's kind of like, No, I don’t. It's like, because I caught her lying. Everything's a lie. So, it's 100% like that they given the emails very strategic. And like she didn't even have words; you know what I mean. And now she's got words, but nothing she has said to me has had any merit because of the amount of lie after lie after lie. And again, it's all strategy at this point. So again, like, just be careful about who you choose to trust. Be careful about who you choose to be in love with or give yourself to, because everyone has said this to me. Even my best of friends and their families and be like, Hey, man, the give and take this is never going to work because a give and take was way off. You gave and she took. And you look back and you see it. And that's why I think it was so easy to disrespect me and disrespect our home to anyone listening right now like is a huge takeaway, believe it or not, if you are in a relationship where you give, and you think it's like your job just to give, look around and see what you're getting back, see if, if you do something little have a little accomplishment, and that person is supporting you. I don't know, like I say hindsight is 20-20 it's just given and take, it's such a huge part of a relationship.
Marissa: Thank you for sharing that. And you're right, it is really important to evaluate the equality in the relationship. If you're in a relationship where you don't feel that you can trust them, or that you're being respected or that the communication is off and you feel afraid to bring things up to them. That might not be a healthy relationship. And it's hard in the moment. It's a yellow flag or a red flag depending on the degree of the situation. But it's really important to really take a look at that and not ignore it and justify it. And it's so much easier said than done. Problems like that don't generally get better, they usually get worse because narcissists will push boundaries to see what they can get away with. And you can kind of see that in the story, Logan where your Is it an ex-wife now? Or are you still technically married?
Logan: As of the release date of this recording, I would say not married.
Marissa: Okay, so you can kind of see that progression with you with your ex-wife. First, it was probably texting a little bit and pulling back when she started working at that place and met this other person. And then it was texting all night. And then it was inviting the person into your home kicking you out of the home. And it's really all about boundary pushing and seeing what she can get away with and what she can't get away with. And ultimately it led to her winning and getting what she wanted. And you feeling the way that you're feeling. Does that make sense?
Logan: It makes perfect sense. It's like, like getting what you want it. I understand like people fall out of love like I understand like relationships are hard. Man I would have appreciated some honesty. Man I would have appreciated some communication. And it feels like I was a passenger all this like oh, like I get this all the time. Hey man, like you're nice guy. You didn't do anything. You didn't do anything. And it's like I'm the passenger and all this. I went down swinging. I tried to fight. I did some stupid grand gestures, I would have shown up with a good talker, like while she was cheating. Like, I'm an idiot. It's like the punishment doesn't fit the crime because like I didn't really do anything, but like I lost my town. I lost my home, my bed, essentially a big chunk of my family. And then that's not, you know, if you are someone on the other side of this man or you're going through something, you know, I think communication is key honesty is key, I think everything would have been way different had she come to me from the beginning and says, Hey, I'm confused, I got a new job. There's someone there. I want you to hear from me. You know what I mean? Like it said it like the whole catching in the text thing. It was like, she's already gone. Like, apparently. I'm not going to say she was a selfless person by any means. But it was like no one, no one mattered. And I'll give you I'll give you this. I did speak to a mutual friend who he spoke to her on the phone. The day after I caught her. And what these are her words, and I never heard these from her. I was probably not supposed to hear these words. She said, “I love Logan. Logan's my best friend. But I'm glad I did it. I just did everything the wrong way.” It doesn't matter. My home. The people You and I both know have been there, Marissa, like, she gets to keep all of it, you know, and use it however, with ever, whoever she sees fit. And to me, that's just like, its ultimate disrespect. But that's the end game.
Marissa: I'm really sorry that you're going through all this, it just seems like everything she did was calculated to maintain control of the situation. You know, she knows she did it wrong. She admitted that to people, and it's not okay. And I'm sorry that you got left on the sideline feeling like dirt, feeling like nothing. And you're not stupid or ridiculous for doing any of those grand gestures. That's 100% in your character. And for a person who maintained control of situation the whole time and gave you really no sort of leeway, or no insight into what was going on. Of course, it would leave you feeling like scrambling and trying to put things together. You're a fixer you are and that's, 100% you. And you can't beat yourself up for something like that. Because it's, it wasn't the wrong thing to do. The wrong thing to do was maintain control of a two-sided situation without giving the partner or her best friend, any sort of insight or a hand.
Logan: You had said to me like, Hey, you never gave any sort of consent to have somebody in your home. Again, it's like things you need to hear from the outside. I was like, Yeah, like, that's super not okay. It's crazy. I could go on and on. But the big takeaway here is like, it's not fair to me moving forward. Everyone's been great. And like, I've been reconnecting with people and my relationships with God gotten stronger and that's just super positive. But it's not fair to me, because in any sort of relationship moving forward, I'm going to have major like, I'm not going to try to take my baggage with me. I don't think anyone should. But it's, it's easier said than do. And I'm a big, big actions speak louder than words, especially after what I've been through. I'm a big action speak louder than words kind of person. But it's not fair to me. Because into any relationship, I'm moving forward, I'm going to have major trust issues. Because we were good, until the second we weren't, and there was somebody else. In my mind, anyway, I thought that was the hurdle on our marriage. She made her bed.
Marissa: So, I have kind of a segue question. It's sort of related. But I do want to know, would we consider cheating abuse? Is cheating abuse? Is cheating emotional abuse?
Logan: Great question. Like I said, at the beginning, anything I'm going through like the deception, the lying, the cheating, the distress. In my mind, like I know, you say not to compare, but like, the things that people go through with physical abuse, like, you know, people have been like locked in closets or getting physically abused or hurt or sexually harassed, or that stuff like that is way worse Like that is terrible. That is abuse. I do think just from the way I feel, I do think like even just the texting, and my buddy called it like, you know, even early on with the texting was going on and then I had mentioned it to someone I'm very close with because I did need to heal. And he said, Look, she's already gone man, like if the texting has already happened. And sure enough, he was right. I mean, led all the way to our three and a half weeks later in our apartment, like I never thought that would be the case. But when the texting happened, I felt not taken for granted. I just felt like dirt. You know, even just with the texting, I felt like I was worthless. I felt like, like I was competing with someone and I know my worth and I never have confidence issues because I put a lot of heart and soul to everything I do. And I'm well respected and I have a reputation and then in the music scene, a very positive one which again, is another ripple effect in this. But I felt very just kind of like even then just like used. So… and then when the ultimate cheating app and you feel man, I did not matter at all like there's someone in my apartment like I am…
Marissa: So, the actual definition of abuse is manipulation to have power and control over a person. Manipulation or coercion in order to maintain power and control over a person.
Logan: That made it way easier. Say yeah, 100%. I mean, like it was Lie, lie it was push everyone away to bring someone else in. It wasn't just to me it was the family. It was to the band. My band may either say, hey, she hung everyone out to dry. No, I understand your priorities. You're going through something like that, man, this person better than worth it. But I would say 100%. Emotionally, yeah. emotionally abusive. Yeah, that messed me up for a long while. Luckily, it was like I was falling off a cliff. And I was like, screaming and like, everybody caught me. And that's including you, Marissa
Marissa: Well, we're all happy to do it. And honestly, I think it's amazing that you had such a strong and tight support network. You know, ranging from people you haven't talked in a long time or meeting who we really didn't know each other very well, to people you're super close with, like your best friends and her family. That is such a testament to your character. And I'm not a religious person I hate like the #blessed thing. I think that that's so obnoxious. But I think that you're so blessed to have such a strong, amazing community around you. And we're all grateful to be here for you, whenever you need it. So, tell me a little bit about what has helped you heal from all of this, because obviously, it's been really heavy, and it's very, very recent, but you seem to be handling it well, and moving on, at least in your own way. Like you're not holding on it anymore. And that's really important and really, really amazing. So, what are some tips and tricks that you've tried that have worked for you?
Logan: That's an amazing question. You know, we talked about it earlier, in terms of healing. But obviously, like my friends and family, and apparently her family, being so supportive. And everyone just kind of saying, they're really using these words, you're a good guy, which again, I'm not in love with, but also saying you handle this with integrity, which I'm trying to do, again. Like just because someone did everything the wrong way, doesn't mean that I have to. And I'm not going to go on social media and post a bunch of things. You know, at the same time, if you want to talk to me, I'm an open book. I'll be respectful of certain things in this story. You know, the, one of the ministers I spoke with, I said, like, the hardest thing for me was wrapping my head around, like how it could just happen like a light. Like, how did this just happen? Like, new job, new person in my home? Like, how did this happen? My head is still spinning. And my minister said, “It's like, you have emotional whiplash.” I thought that was a great, great analogy. And then I have the best friends in the world, my buddy, who's a cop, I was talking to him. And he sees crazy stuff every day, man. And he said something to me, that hopefully people can take away from here. But he says something to me, he goes, “Be happy, you can't understand it, because that means you're not capable of it.” And I thought that was brilliant. Because I still can't understand it. Like I had said, if roles were reversed. You know, say I had fallen for some dude and a new job, or whatever it is. I feel like there could be communication. And I'm not saying like, that would have been the case. I don't know. I'm not in anyone else's shoes. But I feel like there would have been a lot more honesty. I feel like there would have been a lot more communication. But everyone's been there from even moving out of the apartment. Even letting me crash somewhere. Open Arms. I've received so much love and encouragement, which I’m… you know, everyone's going to be there. Like when you fall, but when you see it, it's overwhelming. My family, my sister, everyone's just been amazing. I have amazing friends who are some of who are first responders who are going through some crazy stuff right now, who are going through way crazier stuff and then I'm going through, it's key. I'm not used to the encouragement. I'm not used to all the love and the mushy stuff. But you see how much your love loved and appreciated. And I think integrity and not reputation, but integrity and showing the kind of person you are really does speak volumes. And people show that they appreciate you and that they love you. And like I said everyone was just kind of like, yeah, we're good on her. You could do better. You know what I mean? Like everyone was just kind of, they love me and they want to see the best for me. Just surround yourself with people in life who got your back who don't stab you in the back. But people who got your back and you’ll know who those people are.
Marissa: Yeah, they say that in your darkest times or when, when the people who are truly on your side show up.
Logan: Absolutely. And I lived it.
Marissa: Well, thank you so, so much for joining us today. And thank you for sharing your truth and being raw and honest. And you know, I hope everything just keeps growing for you and your creative endeavors. And everything because you really are a good guy. And you have a big heart.
Logan: Marissa, more importantly, thank you for what you do for people who've been through some crazy, crazy stuff I appreciate you all you have done for me, not just talking with me, but constantly checking up on me and putting up with my rambling. So I super appreciate you keep up all the good work that you do and I'm just going to say now there's going to be a bunch more Amazon best-selling books on the way.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Overcoming narcissism and healing from emotional abuse are so important to your mental health and to living a life of freedom, confidence and peace. Today, I want to discuss What Makes a good relationship.
Everybody has different expectations for what they want in a partner, and what makes up a good relationship, but there are four areas in which a relationship needs to be solid in order for it to be considered a healthy relationship.
A healthy relationship needs to have communication, trust, respect and emotional support to succeed.
- Communication
Communication skills come in two forms, verbal communication and nonverbal communication. Verbal communication, is the way we speak to each other. Do we speak to each other with encouraging words, love, respect, and kindness? Verbal communication is how we get to know each other. Our likes and dislikes, the things that makes us tick. It’s how we argue and fight, set and learn boundaries. It’s the quickest and most efficient way to learn about each other.
Nonverbal communication is body language and facial expressions. Being observant to how your partner responds to your words and your behaviors. The things that make them smile or cry. The ways in which their body moves in reaction to things. You learn a lot about a persons psychology by watching how they move, when they move, and communicating motions of love, acceptance and comfort.
When there are barriers in communication, or situations in which we are miscommunicating or communicating improperly, it causes discomfort and resistance. It pushes our partner away. And that’s a large contributor to toxic relationships.
- Trust
In toxic relationships, we are taught to not trust anyone aside from our narcissist, including ourselves. A healthy relationship is built on trust. Trust is the foundation of a healthy relationship, and that includes a feeling of security, loyalty and commitment. In toxic relationships, narcissists will lie, cheat and gaslight us, making us feel crazy and instilling us with self-doubt. That shaky and unstable lack of trust does a lot of damage to the relationship.
In a healthy relationship, you feel secure and that it’s stable and there is a solid foundation of commitment and loyalty. You aren’t worried that your toxic partner is cheating on you and lying about it. You’re not worried that there is somebody else or that you need to hold on tighter to keep them around. Your partner trusts you, and you trust them, and there’s a mutual feeling of comfort and security.
- Respect
Respect is arguably the most important aspect of a healthy relationship. Respect is showing somebody that you care, that you are valid, and that you are loved. When you respect someone, you hold them in high regard, and their opinion and interests matter to you.
You can respect someones opinion, even if you disagree. You can respect someones boundaries, especially when you’ve experienced a narcissist, someone respecting your boundaries is really important. You can respect someones space and wishes.
All of these amount to a very healthy balance of power, and a healthy relationship.
- Emotional Support
Humans are social creatures, which means that we require emotional support. We have our logical side and our emotional side. Even if one over-powers the other, we are all still motivated by emotion. That’s why we love sentimental things, and watching movies. They spark some sort of emotion, whether it be adrenaline, happiness, sadness, fear, etc.
When we, as survivors are having bad days, or episodes or just feeling bad, we need someone to give us the emotional support that we require. If that means that they just listen to you vent, or comfort you, or bring your favorite food, then that’s enough. And it works both ways. A healthy relationship is one where the playing field is equal, and both partners feel supported emotionally.
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent,
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Overcoming narcissism and healing from emotional abuse are so important to your mental health and to living a life of freedom, confidence and peace. Today, I want to highlight Signs of a Toxic Relationship. It is important to be able to recognize red flags, so that we can safely avoid toxic people.
There are 11 signs of a toxic relationship. Learn how to recognize them so you are prepared and know how to avoid toxic people.
- Narcissistic Deflection (Deflection)
What does deflection mean? It’s diverting a conversation, topic or blame to someone else, usually the survivor. It is playing mind games with the survivor to make them feel crazy or that they are to blame for the outcome of the narcissists behavior.
- Are Narcissists Loyal? (Poor Commitment)
The short answer is no. That doesn’t guarantee that your partner is cheating on you, but loyalty is also keeping promises and appointments. Narcissists and toxic partners are notorious for leaving survivors waiting around for them, and lying. This alone makes them unreliable and undependable. If your partner is lying to you, or dodging plans, or making you wait for them with no response or courtesy call, they aren’t being loyal, or dependable.
- My Partner Doesn’t Respect My Boundaries (Disrespect)
Narcissists and toxic people don’t like being told no. I mean, nobody does, but narcs especially aren’t fond of boundaries, because it limits their control. So, in order to maintain control they will continue to disrespect and push your boundaries, and most often, blame it on you for not being clear; or apologize, but then continue to push the boundary until you give in.
Some relationships can drain you, especially when the toxic person is in constant, nonstop contact, has impossible expectations or is in constant fear of gossip about them. It’s unproductive and exhausting to have to entertain these conversations. Communication and respect are two huge and important characteristics of a healthy relationship. If your partner isn’t respecting you, your wishes or your body, that’s a huge sign of a toxic relationship.
- Are Narcissists Spiteful? (Spiteful/Vengeful)
If your partner uses words and actions as a means of revenge, they are the definition of a toxic person. Narcissists tend to be very jealous, and also very spiteful. They detest when other people have what they want, and that can translate to economic or career goals, material objects, people and attention. They will often seek revenge against someone when they feel threatened, by either verbally, emotionally or physically attacking the survivor. A healthy partnership should be building each other up, encouraging and motivating each other to be and do their best. And if that is not the case, then your partner is a narcissist.
- Healthy Give and Take Relationships (Inequality)
A major sign of a toxic relationship is when you have a partner who asks for help and advice but never has the time to support you. They want your attention, your help, your money, your time, but don’t reciprocate the sentiment when you need it. The relationship revolves around them and their needs, always.
- How To Know If Your Relationship Is Healthy (Using Your Information Against You)
In a healthy relationship, your partner will support you and not take advantage of the information they have from you. A toxic partner will use the information you’ve given them to manipulate you into doing what they want. They will use your past or your weaknesses against you, to make you feel guilt, shame or submission to gain control. They may use personal information to demean you in front of others, or use it to manipulate you into doing what they want. This is a clear sign of a toxic relationship that you should get out of.
- My Partner Doesn’t Like My Family or Friends (Isolation)
Narcissists and Toxic People don’t like competition, and they don’t like it when people influence their survivors. They want to keep their partner exactly where they want them, with no outside perspectives. If your partner is constantly bashing your friends and family members, and trying to monopolize your time, this is a big indication of an unhealthy relationship.
- Lack of Integrity in Relationships (Actions Don’t Match Their “Values”)
When what they say doesn’t align with their actions, that is a red flag. Narcissists know how to say all the right things, but they do nothing to back up what they say. In fact, they usually contradict themselves, and confuse survivors. We know they know the right thing to do, but they choose to do the opposite. It's all toxic behavior and mind games.
- Lack of Trust in A Relationship (Defensiveness)
A general rule of thumb is, someone with a guilty conscious get’s defensive, and usually accuses the victim of the crime or behavior the narcissist is committing. So, if your partner is accusing you of cheating or demanding that they cannot trust you, chances are, they are doing what they’re accusing you of. And that lack of trust is an indicator of trying to isolate you from your friends and family.
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- My Partner Tries to Control Me (Controlling / Manipulation)
I’ve already mentioned a few ways that narcissists and toxic partners use to control you. By controlling your time and attention, and isolating you from family and friends. But there are also other ways that they use. For example, making comments about your body to limit or control your eating habits. By not-so-politely recommending you eat less or eat more in order to … fill in the blank. They also will comment, recommend or control the clothing you’re allowed to wear, especially around people of the gender or sex you’re interested in, even if that person isn’t someone you’re interested in. If your partner, in an unhealthy and unwanted way, is monitoring your eating habits, spending habits, spiritual habits, and free-will, they are toxic, and this is a toxic relationship.
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- Narcissistic Jealousy (Jealous)
The last red flag of a toxic relationship is someone who is perpetually pulling you down or holding you back from achieving your personal or professional goals. It’s healthy to have “the challenger” who pokes holes in your assumptions and makes you aware of the risks to protect you and help you gain clarity, but when this turns into perpetual negativity, it’s a toxic relationship. You want to be with someone who encourages and motivates you. Not someone who is jealous of your aspirations and keeps you feeling unaccomplished and unmotivated.
If any of these behaviors are things that you’re experiencing with your partner, please get help. All of these are toxic behaviors, that will keep you feeling stuck and isolated until you take control back and leave. I am here to help in any way I can. Feel free to reach out to me via my website: www.MarissaFayeCohen.com or by email at me@MarissaFayeCohen.com. I also have a Free Safety Planning Guide on my website at www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Free-resources . Cutting out a toxic partner is difficult, but necessary. Narcissists push boundaries and things will just get worse. Reach out to me for support. I’m happy to help.
Schedule a Personal Call with Marissa
Hey! If you enjoyed this article, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, how to get out of a toxic relationship, how to leave, leaving my narcissist, how to leave my narcissist, how to leave a narcissist, leaving a narcissist, how to leave a narcissist, once you leave a narcissist he will, leaving a covert narcissist, how to get out of a toxic friendship, how to leave a narcissist marriage, how to get a narcissist husband to leave you, how to get out of a toxic marriage, how to get out of a toxic relationship when you live together, when you leave a narcissist, how to get a narcissist to leave you alone, what happens when you leave a narcissist, how to get out of a toxic relationship with a child, jealousy, controlling,
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Rob: Alright! Ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to a very special tag-team episode of the BCP- Healing From Emotional Abuse Podcast Connection! That’s right! We’re teaming up right now to have some very real discussions about what’s going on in this world that I love so much of Professional Wrestling. Combined with the Good Sisters world of Overcoming Abuse right now. Of course that is Multiple Time Amazon Award Winning, Best Selling author, my good friend Miss Marissa Cohen. Marissa, What's up? How are you?
Marissa: I'm good. You always make me blush with your intros! Thank you.
Rob: Well, you know, it's a crazy time right now in my world of professional wrestling. I see this hashtag, growing, #SpeakingOut, #SpeakOut, where indie stars or even a lot of the national performers that we see on TV right now are talking about some of these very uncomfortable, sometimes abusive, inappropriate situations that are going on behind the curtain right now in this Wrestling World. Stories are surfacing from years ago, some of these major stars are speaking out. Or some of these major stars are being accused of these crazy things. So, it's very, very crazy right now. And I thought, who better to reach out and have a discussion about this? Because in 2020, let's be real, we need to have discussions about things. Than Miss Marissa, Cohen. So Marissa, thank you so much for agreeing to doing this. And hopefully we'll do a couple of these and have a great conversation, your thoughts on this whole thing?
Marissa: I'm just honestly happy that you brought it to my attention. To be honest, I'm not a huge wrestling fan. And I know that's kind of a sacrilege thing to say to you. But I'm really not. And I didn't even consider the amount of sexual harassment and sexual assault and abuse in the Wrestling World. So, thank you for bringing this to my attention And I'm really, really happy to be a part of this, even though obviously, I hate that people are being abused and assaulted. But I'm glad that now, #SpeakingOut is coming to light and people are starting to speak their truth and tell their stories. I think that is so important and you're right. It's just starting the conversation.
Rob: Absolutely beautifully said, and we have a special guest with us, Marissa, I'm very excited about this. You know, obviously not excited about the situation. But again, excited to discuss it, break the silence a little bit. And right now, we're excited to welcome to the show former ring announcer, commentator, wrestler, even no stranger to having gold around her race. That's right, a former NWA women's champ herself, formerly known as Daisy Deville. Please welcome to the show. Miss Linda Danville! Linda, what's up? Thanks for a few minutes. How are you?
Linda: I'm so good. Thank you for having me. How are you doing?
Rob: Doing okay, you know. It's, it's been a year. 2020 — it's been a lot. It’s, you know, it's still going with this whole speaking out movement right now going on in the Wrestling World. You know, first and foremost, your thoughts on the speaking out movement going on social media right now in the Wrestling World.
Linda: You know, I hate to say it, I mean, I've been involved in wrestling since I was 17 and 2001. So, I'm like, a fossil right now in wrestling. But I hate to say it, but when it first started to come to light, I was like, Well, I'm not surprised. And that's such a horrible attitude to have, like, I'm not. Wrestling as a giant boy’s club. And I and I wasn't surprised. So, I reactivated my Twitter was looking through something. And I was honestly, like, I was honestly horrified. Like, it goes so much deeper. And you read these girls and even the men’s stories. Women and men’s stories. And it's so much more beyond like, just grab ass in the locker room, or a lewd comment here or there, or somebody's not giving a shit if you're married and you know, approaching you. But it's so beyond that and it's horrifying. Like a lot of these women, you know, this is like your dream and you do anything to get there. And then you get to this grand stage or you get closer. You get promised all these things, and somebody takes something special to you and just shit’s on it.
Rob: Oh, boy, that's crazy to hear. You know, and a lot of people are saying like, yeah, they're not surprised. Like we don't really know what goes on behind the curtain. You know, I've had the opportunity to work with a lot of promoters and a lot of shows, and, you know, be there before the first bell rings, you know, be in the doors before the crowd gets in there. And I've had very positive experiences, you know, I've never been in the locker room but you know, everyone shaking hands, you know, showing respect to some of the legends in the business. It's all been very, very good. So it did you know, obviously break my heart to see all this stuff. But I think these discussions need to be had. Now, you mentioned locker rooms. You know, I know a lot of these shows are in high school gyms or VFW halls and stuff like that. Is it uncommon for you guys to have like separate locker rooms.
Linda: I don't think I've ever had my own separate room because you know on most of these shows it's there's maybe one or two possibly maximum six women on a show. And it gives them their own locker room is like a flipping luxury. There was a place when I wrestled for SWF we would do shows, gosh, I think it was a VFW in Totowa, I forget what it was. But it was just one big, like curtain dock. Like event space, I think. Then it’s kind of had a back way to a women's bathroom, which had like a fitting room or like a powder room or something. And that was like, the most luxurious, I think it's ever been like I've changed in my car. I've had to — there was a VFW in Bayville, where they wanted us to have the locker room like outside in March, which was insanity. So, we ended up taking over one of the extra bathrooms and wrestling is male dominated. So, they use the women's bathroom and I'm in a friggin women's bathroom with a bunch of dudes. Oh, no, you know what there was we used to wrestle for DWA, we had this place in Jackson, that is like a historical horrible monument or like whatever, called Rova Farms. And was the it was like, the locker room was basically a blocked off lobby that had a mens room and women's rooms on either side, and the promoter and the locker room leader, where they would always use the women's room as their personal locker room. And then once I came along, and they started a women's division, we would kind of just move our shit in there and they would get kind of grumpy about it. I'm like, it's the flipping ladies room. So then you kick them out when you want to get dressed, but very seldom, I mean, at least the places I've worked. Very seldom you actually have like a locker room. I think my first show was at one of the brick high schools can't remember which one it was. And they were like, oh, you're going to have your own locker room. But there was like a high school football game that night. And everybody was changing in their auxiliary gym. So, I'm like, 17 And there's a bunch of dudes getting half naked in high school weight room. Oh, yeah. It's super fun, man. I got tales.
Marissa: That's disgusting.
Linda: Yeah, I mean, it's not uncommon. It's almost like when you go to the beach, and you see like surfers, and they basically put on a towel and they get dressed under the towels never really see anything. But like to be at the beginning of my high school senior year, and like, I get to be a wrestler today and I'm going to manage a tag team and everything is great. You walk in and there's just like, sweaty, smelly dude changing under like Garfield beach towels or something stupid. It's, that's, that's fancy.
Rob: I think while moving forward… I mean, again, this is why we have this discussion. I think moving forward. I mean, I think this is a no brainer, but separate locker rooms. That's probably part of the solution right there. So, we see all these crazy, I mean, you shouldn't say crazy. But to see all these surprising, I guess, or maybe not so surprising claims coming out about some of these pretty big names. Some of these people that I've had on my show. I've literally gone back and deleted episodes because of these things. You know, and, you know, everyone obviously deserves, you know, their do justice and all that, you know. Who knows what’s real and what's not. But I believe the stats speak for themselves and I’ll throw this to you Marissa. I think they're saying like, what was it less than 5% of like claims such as the sexual abuse, rape and such are, I guess, less than 5% are false or something like that? Would you know anything about that Marissa?
Marissa: I do. So, the statistic goes between 2% and 8% of reports are false reports. Depending on the demographic. So in certain demographics, obviously, it's higher or lower. But only about 5% of cases are reported to the police. So, in the grand scheme of things, 2% of the 5% that are reported are false. And it's such a minuscule number, but people like to focus on it so much.
Rob: Yeah, it's really crazy. And you see some of these things. And then you see some of these, like, I even really don't want to name names, but like, you see some of these responses. Some of these people that are putting out that are accused and you're like, that's your response? Like you don't have a leg to stand on. Like it's really just it's kind of pathetic, and crazy. Linda, you said you're not really that surprised to see all this stuff coming out. You don't have to get specific or name names or anything like that. But have you experienced, I guess similar things to some of the stuff we're seeing on Twitter?
Linda: So, I would say, I've been and I everything I say is going to sound so horrible one way or another. I have never I've been fortunate that I've never been, let's say, like big enough that I'm traveling out of state. I'm doing all these things, and I'm living out of my car. And I'm like sharing hotel rooms with people. That's when shit gets bad. Like I've seen, like, I've never been so thankful that my career didn't make it. I'll just put it that way. Like, because what are you going to do? Like I said, there's maybe two to six women per show. And I saw somebody’s response on Twitter to someone was like, “Well, maybe you shouldn't be in a hotel room with a guy.” Like, what are you supposed to do? You're traveling. Wrestling is not like, you don't get paid a million fucking dollars, unless you work for Vince McMann. And maybe you're lucky if you make three figures. Like I've never, that's never. It's basically like, a hobby. Most the time, and I'm going to get dragged for saying that, but it basically is. You do it because you love it most of the time. And so, I've never been in a situation where I've had to split a hotel room with somebody, and fear for my life. Early days, I dated a guy that I went to wrestling school with and he was very adamant about, like, we don't want anybody to know we're dating, because that's not what kind of look around you. And I think back to some of the things that we would say to each other. And I'm just like, he was not a good person, but whatever. Um, so we weren't like going out after shows, and like running down to AC with people, which happened often. And we weren't going to bars, we would just like go to the show, go to the diner and go home. So, I wasn't really in situations a lot of time. And then later on, like I, you know, met my husband, and then we had our kids. So, I'm not rocking and rolling all night with the dudes because I'm going home with my family. So, I've never really been in a situation where I've been cornered in a bathroom but have, I been? Have I? I've definitely been hit on. I've definitely had somebody say lewd comments. I've definitely not gotten paid because I was a woman on the show, or because I waited too long to use the locker room to change and everybody was done at that point and then the promoter booked. Like, I don't know if it was necessarily something that happened on purpose. But we had it was like, I want to say, I only had my, my oldest son at the time. I was just restarting and I went to help somebody, they were doing a fundraiser for the Lacey the firehouse one at least. And it was at one of the high schools or middle school or something. And they had me train one of their firefighters who was female and it was supposed to be you know, me and one of the guys that I know Cletus versus two of the firefighters, a male and a female. So, I was basically we all put the match together. Because who doesn't want to see your firefighters that you're raising money for Like wrestle? It was super dope. But then, you know, you kind of have to wait a minute because we shared a locker room and like, I wanted to get dressed. But my van is like, all the way in East-Bumble, so I can’t go all the way to my van. So, I don't know, whatever. So we go to a bar afterwards. And the promoter who maybe ran free shows and is smelly and disgusting and annoying, whatever. He was sitting there like, like, big shit like, “Oh, well, we had a good night we raised money. Everybody got paid.” And I'm literally sitting two feet away from me. And I’m like, “I didn't get paid." I thought nobody was getting paid because it was a fundraiser that's common. And you didn't say anything, didn't offer buy me a beer, did not buy me a sandwich, or whatever. But as far as like harassment goes, it's definitely happened. I've been approached in my Twitter DMSs by a former WWE star that we did a show with, but he was super tall, and he mentioned at the show that I was super tall, and I had really long legs and that's great. He was like you He was asking me questions like, what my shoe size was, how tall I was. If I would, you know spend time with him when he did shows with us in New Jersey. And I was like “Lol I'm married That's funny.” He's married to you, by the way. Not to the same person now. He was married someone else at the time. But he was like, Well, how married are you? I'm like, “The married with children kind. That kind of married.”
Marissa: What kind of question is that?
Linda: I'm like, married — like vows in front of God and I love my husband. He’s had my heart since I was 14. Anyway, but you know, it's like so this man he like messages me and he says that and it's probably one of the only times. But I made it a point on my wrestling Facebook page. Like if somebody contacted me on messenger unless it was regarding a booking, I would just delete it and not pay attention to it. And I would get Messages every now and then like, hey. I'm sure single females or even married female get this all the time I really don't let people know that whatever. I make it very obvious and I don't answer things. But I was starting to get some messages like my, my inbox and I would just delete them and I made a point to mention something on my wrestling Facebook like, hey, clearly stated my bio that I'm married just because I do wrestling doesn't mean like, you can approach me. And a promoter I had worked for was like nobody fucking cares that you're married. Why do you say that all the time? And I’m like, is this how you talk to your wife? Because that's disgusting. And it really struck me like if he asked me to ever work for show for him again. I absolutely never would. He definitely doesn't run shows anymore. But that's like the kind of stuff that you just deal with. And you learn to like laugh it off, I guess. Because and you know, looking back on it now, like that was so stupid. Like, why would I laugh it off? It's so fucking rude and disrespectful. And I'm almost ashamed of like the things that you learn coming up, like, you know, it's a locker room. It's a man's world, basically. I could go on and it wouldn't even scratch the surface because some of these women have been through, men have been through. There are married men who would have a girlfriend and be hitting up. I mean, none of these are my story, but from some of the things that I've seen, like… I know, a wrestler who's non-binary, and she was getting hit up, I guess, because she was different. And the guy was furious. But had a wife and a girlfriend and is now denying everything, which is disgusting because I know this person. I've met her on one occasion and it's just not… like she lives life on apologetically like she wouldn't make something up just to ruin someone. Like she doesn't give a fuck about your life. She just wants to wrestle and be happy. And if she's mentioning something, you know, it's because it happened.
Rob: Even just hearing all that is crazy for me. And, you know, I asked both you guys this, like, you mentioned the DM’s. Linda like, you know, we were very, you know, pro women's wrestling show. We've had a lot of like the great indie stars on our show.
Linda: I've never met her. But I know the guys that are running Titan. alot of those guys were involved with SWF and are no longer. So, and like my guys, like Vinny, and those guys, we're on there. So, I was tuning in from home. She has it. She's going to go very far. And I'm scared for her because she's what, 17? 18? Very young, I'm nervous for girls like her, because there's a very good chance from my experience, somebody is going to pull some shit. And she's not Oh, my God, I'm getting so emotional right now. And she's not going to be able to realize like, what she wants and what she can do. Because it's, more likely that somebody's going to ruin it for her, then she just decides to hang it up early.
Rob: It's, crazy that you bring that up. And again, like, I get what you're saying. For sure it does, it does make you worry, like we always try to, you know, represent ourselves in a good life and have good rapport with these people. You know, I hate trying to reach out sometimes it's the only way through social media. I think that is part of the problem And I'm a big social media guy. A lot of my job involves social media, whether it be my podcast or my day job. I get it. But like, you know, you talk about the DMs and all that stuff. I'm very careful when I reach out on social platforms. I keep it very professional, very respectful. And when we have, you know, a wrestler, especially young, younger wrestlers, or female wrestlers on our show, were very, very respectful. And the respect goes ways, you know, goes both ways. It's all about that. And, you know, we see young wrestlers, you know, you mentioned Mimi, who's fantastic. I do think she's got a great head on her shoulders. You know, way, way ahead of her time. You know, wish her all the best. I will see her on TV, no doubt in my mind. You know, and like we said, hopefully this conversation will be part of the solution. Guys like Casey Navarro has been a great friend of my show, man, he has such huge potential. So, you know, he's just a good guy, a good human. And I literally asked him like, how do you stay so humble? Like, I've seen the stars that he rolls with, you know, during this whole pandemic itself. He just checked in with me, he's like, Hey, man, how's you and your family? I'm like, I'm like, why are you talking to me? Like you're just like, great guy.
Linda: He was like 16 wrestling for SWF. Him and Jordan Oliver. And you just look at those kids and they're so hungry, like they're going to do so well. He get injured a lot though. And every time I turn around like this friggin kid! Come on.
Rob: He's the future. Well, he really is. Yeah. And maybe, you know, maybe these kids like up and coming, like, maybe we're having these conversations now. So, the business will be better for them. Like, it's very hard to tell, Marissa, let me ask you, like, you know, you've explored, you know, all different organizations. You're looking at things that are going on in the military right now. You know, obviously, I was like, hey, Marissa, like, there's this whole kind of abuse and stuff, you know, out online. In the Wrestling World, you know, are you guessing you're not surprised by this? But do you kind of see a lot of this in maybe like sports and stuff like that?
Marissa: Unfortunately, yeah. And a lot of sports or professional organizations don't handle it very well. So, like you said, I'm working kind of with the military and not with the military, I'm going to correct that. I'm working with an organization who wants to be a third party to military sexual assault investigations. Because the internal abuse of power is so corrupt, and horrendous, and they treat survivors of sexual assault with such disdain and disrespect, that it ruins a ton of people's careers. And so, when you approached me with this for wrestling, I, it was hard for me to say that I was surprised, like, I wasn't surprised. Because for the same reason as the military or police. It's an abuse of power. You know, you have these, these children or these very young people who have these big ambitions and want to do amazing things. And you literally have their destiny in the palm of your hand. Right? So, these promoters, and these agents and the people who have a name or have an established brand, have such power over the younger generation, right? So, it's easy to exploit them. It's easy to manipulate them or coerce them. If you've ever seen the TV show, and this might be a really bad analogy, but if you've ever seen the Amazon Prime show The Boys …
Linda: Oh, man, I had to not watch it. I found out like that baby dies or whatever, something happened with the baby. And it was right when I'm like, in the middle of nursing my son, Oh, I can't watch it. I was like, Oh, my God, look at that pumping being represented on TV. And then I'm like, Oh, no, I can't watch this. I'm going to be good for my emotional.
Rob: It's crazy.
Marissa: But in that show, in the very first episode, I forget what character was but the fish guy, right? He has the power over this brand-new person who's so eager and so excited. And he basically says, if you want to be anything, you have to give me a blowjob. And so, she feels compelled to do that to keep at her dream, without realizing the consequence that she's going to feel. And I feel like wrestling and any organization like it, I mean, any athletic organization, any organization where people have power over each other, the younger ones or like the newer guys are susceptible to that. And they're so often abused, and it's never ever addressed It.
Linda: Wrestling is unique in the way that there's not really many other sports or organizations like that, where you're going to mix men and women. Like you have a card and it might have up to 10 matches on it, you might only have one woman's match, or you might have one female ring announcer. Or you might have one female taking this tickets even, or manager, or valet. It's not, there's not a lot going on at one show. And there are things that for years, you just accept as okay, because you don't want to step on any toes. And if there's ever been like, anything that you've been super passionate about. Wrestling is really big on respect, which is really fucking funny in the current climate. Yeah, like you come in, you shake everybody's hand. Everybody. Like if a wrestler’s wife or kids are there you shake everybody's hand. If there's something you don't like, you shake their hand. And it's a very specific, like the wimpiest handshake ever. I actually shake hands a little bit rougher because I needed to assert dominance. Just because I'm a woman, like, don’t F*** with me, this is my handshake. It's a real handshake. So, there's that. But it's like, if you there's so many unspoken rules that you have to follow. And if you do them, I'll just write and listen to all the right people like you can go far. And if you say the wrong thing… I was actually reading, one of the girls that came up a little bit before my time from North Jersey was on Twitter the other day, and I remember back to like my early days of, Yahoo groups and all these things, you'd see all these women from different areas around New Jersey that you might actually wrestle one day. There was a database, a website for women, independent woman, and it was called Glory Fantastic. That was great. And it comes in every year. And you see all these girls like, you might wrestle them one day, and then you hear through grape. I'm like, Oh, well, this one is a rat, which is like a wrestling groupie. Like, this one's a rat, and she was all these guys, or this one given blowjobs. So, she could get the title. And at this point, like, I'm questioning everything I was ever told in wrestling in my early days, because it's like, those are not real stories. And people would spread rumors like that, so people wouldn't go far or so you would get a bad reputation. And they were really big on pitting women against each other. And it just wasn't healthy, like beyond the things that men would do. The women were horrible to each other too. And it was basically just like, what, what you were taught. And like that was it. And you hated everybody and that was it.
Marissa: And it's so interesting, like you mentioned that there's such a culture of community respect, right. But behind closed doors, and under all of it is abuse and rumors and pitting women against each other. And pitting humans against each other. Like, I think that's so horrific. I understand the concept of wrestling. And I'm not saying that they should you know that there shouldn't be competition, but to exploit people and spread rumors about things that they did to further their career, when chances are that wasn't the case. Like that's so twisted.
Linda: It's hard because you don't know what sometimes. That's because that's what wrestling is like, you’re not supposed to know what's real and what's fake. And it's not just the storylines, or how strong somebody is, or their character. It's literally the people themselves. You don't know who to trust, basically. And, you know, not things I ever thought about until like, this weekend, and I'm just like Jesus Christ. Like I know so many people that right now are thinking of giving up because they've just completely lost faith in wrestling. And that it's so sad, like, now is not the time to give up. Like if you're mad that people are being shit humans, like that's more reason for you to stay. That more of a reason for you to stay and take care of the young kids. Because you're the one that needs to change it. Like you're the person that somebody who's fresh out of wrestling or 16. Beyond being like a seven-foot-tall human like that. So, they want to go to you because they know like, you'll believe what they say. If you're like hey, a Marauder says that if I don't follow a whole closet with him, like I will get a championship. And that man will be you Act. That's the guy you talk to, cause he'll help you. But it's just so fun and the handshake thing too. Like I said, it's not a regular like standard, like Welcome to the business lunch handshake. It's like two fingers. You're supposed to show everybody in the locker room, that you're going to work. Like you're not going to stiff someone. So like, you're not going to put them in like a chokehold and legitimately choke them. Like you can trust that like,
you're supposed to be able to trust people in wrestling with your body and the fact that you can't trust people to be alone in a room together without fearing for your fucking life is disgusting.
Like, I shake your hand this way. So, you don't hurt me in the ring. But then the same people that you're showing you won't hurt you in the ring, like okay, this is a nice handshake, but you have to worry about them like grabbing your ass or like touching you wrong in a match. Or making a really fucking rude comment. Like oh my god, I'm fired up right now. I haven’t ever said any of this out loud. Like it just fucking astounding that you have to worry about that when you're literally showing someone that you can trust them and they can trust you and then they just throw it out the fucking window.
Rob: Wow, that's a soundbite right there. Like you put it perfectly like you trusting these people with your body like midair. Mid flip. Picking you up. Jumping over the rope.
Linda: Like, you know, it's like how can I trust you? You can put me in a like me, an almost six-foot-tall woman who was not like I will trust you to put me in, like, an overhead maneuver and throw me on the effing ground. I will trust to do that. Or to chokeslam me, or do something. But I have to go to my fucking van because I can't change here. Because that's me like fucking asking for it?
Rob: And I think you summed it up perfectly. Like, I never thought of it that way. You know, I've been behind the curtain a few times. My experiences and the promoters that I have been able to work with have been super positive. It's so great to see and all this stuff breaks my heart. But you know, I do remember people coming around and shaking my hand like, Why are you shaking my hand? Like, you know, I'm just a journalist, you know, you know, but yeah, but that's how I learned you shook everyone's hand like hey, I'm so and so I'm like, I know who you are. I've seen you on TV. Like, you know, why are you shaking my hand? To me it was just like magic. I see people running the ropes like it was really, really cool. And I'm all about it. But at the same time Like, what do we do to change things? You know, like, we talked about the separate locker rooms, like, you know, we have these big stars, these big shows these big events and conventions, where, you know, we're having some of the indie wrestlers going to pick up these big names from the airports, you know. And that's where we're hearing a lot of these stories happening. I have seen some, you know, organizations making some changes to some of these, like things, you know, I understand people have to pay their dues, you know, whether it be setting up the ring, or like picking up people. But maybe this, you know, maybe some things need to change here. And I'm curious, your thoughts on some of the things such as that that might need to change moving forward?
Linda: You know, I don't know. It's just, it starts with knowing right now, that if somebody has a problem that their voice will be heard. But at the same time, I don't even know, because it's so something so simple as, hey, you're new, you're still training, whatever, instead of setting up the ring, because I know you probably hate it, because everybody hates it. But then whatever, you either hate it, because you don't want to do it, or you hate it, because you're very particular about how you're going to set up. But instead of setting up the ring, or putting together chairs and go to the airport to pick up who the Eff ever, formerly known as … on the on the card today. And imagine like somebody who's like 16, or 17, and maybe 18, even 20, whatever. And they're just like, holy shit, like, my idol is on the show. And not even not only am I going to be in the same locker room with this human, I'm going to go pick them up from the airport. And I've heard the only thing I've heard is like, there was always a story about like, Oh, so and so picked up like I'm Adela page and he made him go to wall and get them free stuff and then he didn't eat them. Like, your weird things like that But I've never heard of somebody getting assaulted. But now somebody's going to have to worry about that like. So I go pick up this big purse like, like, when I was in SWF that was a little bit more of one of the companies that would book the bigger names like something like UWC. They're more about their own talent and their fans basically enjoyed that brand. And not necessarily wrestling in general. They have a very specific fan base down there. But something like SWF, like, Oh, we have formerly known as on the show today, can you go get them? And I remember doing a show with and I'm going to use a name just because it wasn't a negative influence whatsoever. It was probably the only time in a locker room that I've gotten starstruck. It was at that one room bathroom and Badass Billy Gunn was there. And I am a huge DX fan, which is interesting in the climate because they were very graphic. They're like, the reason why I got into wrestling. I thought it was so funny. Like all the stuff they did in between. And they weren't wrestling and going out and being either a good guy or the bad guy. They were making fun of everyone. And they were just doing whatever the hell they wanted. And I thought it was spectacular. And then on top of that, they work really well as a unit. And they were amazing wrestlers. So, a couple years ago Badass Billy Gunn was at the show, and I'm like, oh my god, like my first AOL screen name was ANewAgeOutlaw. I was like, I’m really going to shit a brick. And everyone's like, oh, why? Because you want to go …Oh my god, now it's turning into a horrible memory. So everyone's like, Why? Because you want to you want to go like suck his dick? Like No, I'm not going to… like I'm not … just because I like enjoy a certain wrestler like, it's from a pure place. It’s from like a 14-year-old girl watching wrestling and thinking this is the shit. And one of the reasons why I got into a ring was because of DX. And I'm literally three sinks down from Badass Billy Gunn. And that doesn't mean I want to hold up in a locker room or like a bathroom stall with him. It means Holy shit. You're Billy Gunn, you're an amazing wrestler. You bump like nobody's business, this is the fucking best day of my life. Have a throat lozenge. I almost passed out. But whatever and everybody assumed it was something weird. But anyway, I don't know where I was going with that. I am chatty and lose my train of thought. I blame children for whatever. But you know, everybody just assumed something. It was awful. So my reaction to that. Okay, here we go. Like if somebody said to a young Me, “Hey, can you go to the airport to pick up Billy Gunn?” And I was like, oh my god, I sleep in a DX shirt every day. I wear the extra training because it's supposed to bring me good luck. These are the reasons why I do what I do. And I get to pick this guy up at the airport and put it in my fucking car and let him change the radio to whatever he wants because he’s my fucking idol?! That would have been me, and somebody is going to be in that situation and probably already has and then not saying Billy Gunn because he's a treasure. But another person will have another wrestler likely from this era or you know, one of the guys that's recently let go, like you get to go to the airport and pick up this name. And they're like, oh my god, do I wear a different wrestler shirt? What do I wear I'm driving my car. Do I go the speed limit or will they think I'm a dork? Should we stop at Wawa and then that wrestler, who you worry so much because you want to impress them, and you are literally starstruck, they encroach on your space and touch you uninvited, and they literally kill every dream you've ever had in five minutes. Like, somebody is going to be put in that situation, and that's fucking horrible. So, what do we do we send an Uber like, I don't know.
Marissa: What about I mean, as silly as it sounds, but like, what about the buddy system? Right? So, if we implement a sort of buddy system in events. Where younger people are not like, I'm trying to think of a better word than chaperoned. But what if they have somebody with them? That that can keep them safe? And can monitor situations? That's not like a bodyguard, but like a friend? Is that reasonable? Or is that like a silly dumb thing to say?
Linda: So, it's not dumb and it's not silly. But I also don't think, and it's always going to be negative, like, somebody is going to get ragged on. Somebody's going to pull over somebody. Somebody's going to do something and they'll be like, Oh, look, a 16-year-old Joe. He's got his fucking mom with him. But like, no, it's my truck. But like, it's such a testosterone fueled thing, that having somebody there to look out for you, you'd never hear the end of it. You're literally supposed to have a locker room leader. There's supposed to be somebody running the locker room, who is monitoring the matches, making sure people aren't sneaking out to the bar and get drunk before their show. Nobody's sneaking out into the parking lot to like blow lines of coke, because things happen. Like, you're supposed to have somebody looking out for things. But you can't monitor everybody all the time. And there should be somebody who's designated I believe And I was talking to, actually I think Tommy the Moose told me he was supposed to be on your show next week.
Rob: Oh, yeah, we love Tommy.
Linda: Tommy. Friggin Uncle Tommy the Moose. He got Oswald few little onesies when he was born. So, Uncle Tommy the Moose, He is just pure delight. Yeah. Speaking to me about like, he's like so and so was running this show. And me and Risa Pappas, Tommy’s girlfriend, she's a Ring announcer as well. We've had her on she's great. I didn't she fantactic? She gives NO FUCKs. She’s like racists suck and gross men suck. I’m going to bring it up that I love her a million times. They’re such an unlikely pair And I love it so much. So, he was telling me that they were talking about how they should probably have somebody (and this wasat the end of the weekend before all this came to light, really.) And it was like, they, you know, they don't know what they're doing with this. So, they should have somebody run, you know, the women and your name came up? And I'm like, well, it's not feasible, because I don't, you know, I don't My job is like, you know, when I'm not furloughed, is it's a weekend job. And when I when I'm not weekending, I have my kids. And my hours are weird. And it's, you know, it's not feasible to get that kind of mom time, you know. Like, my version of a knitting circle or whatever. But I've been thinking about it, and I'm like, you know, that would be so great. And usually the locker room leader is somebody on the card is a veteran, somebody who's been with the company or even one of the trainers from the school or a promoter somebody was like, money mark, or whatever. You should 100% have someone and it should be somebody who's not really doing anything else on the show. Like you should have like a dorm have an RA. Like, I don't know, like a prep school would have like a prep school mom or like somebody monitoring people. And it shouldn't be someone who's involved in the show in any other capacity. I don't think, other than helping reading the storylines, and making sure everybody sticks to their times, and telling people who's up next and you know, basically babysitting the locker room.
Rob: I like what you're saying. And Marissa, that was a fantastic question. In fact, I've seen like people, certain companies and to me, like the people that always like, you know, speak up right away, like that shows me something. Recently, something happened in AEW and AEW, like, we’re doing this with this person. And this is happening. Like companies that just like come out and say something or address it head on. I feel like that's the best way to go about things. You know, just acting and I've seen companies, a lot of the indie companies saying like. Alright, for the airport pickups, we are going to have two people go. So, Marissa, you hit that right on the head. Like we're going to have two people go. There's a lot of different things, I think that we can change moving forward. And I think just having this discussion like, you know, you don't need to go hire a human resources department. But I like what you're saying Linda, like I've seen some companies already adopt this. Having a someone in charge of the women's locker room, you know, preferably like a woman, you know. That would make a lot of sense. And you know, same thing for the men's locker room. Let's have separate locker rooms, let's have, you know, not necessarily human resources, but some someone appointed to have that role. Like a wellbeing, you know, make sure everyone acts appropriately. Something like that would be really cool. And I think that's part of the solution right there. Also, you know, not just having these conversations, but I'll ask you guys, this. You know, I've seen this a lot in the music industry, this is a lot different, you know, like the local band and stuff. But I think ego is a huge part of the problem. And I can see that absolutely see that a lot in the business, Linda?
Linda: Oh, my God, it's like one guy has a security role on WWE, or like a fake doctor or EMT. And then they come back to a show. They've started going tanning, they've got new gear. They're all baby-oiled up. And they're like, “Well, you know, uh huh.” And it's like, that's what it looks like I've wrestled here. I've wrestled this person. So, you know, show me respect. Like, what the fuck did you do here to earn respect? Like, Oh, my God, the ego. It's just you have the guy in the back who's like, man-spreading in his chair, takes up a whole fucking corner with his water jug. And it's just like, you know, I'm King shit and you're like, No, bro. But yeah, so much ego.
Rob: Yeah. And I think that's why people think they can get away with doing these horrible things. I'm so and so I've been on this, or I've this many accolades. And that doesn't excuse it, we've seen a lot of big names that have just kind of disappeared off of Twitter right now. And organizations that I can think of one or two right now that just no longer exists, because of this whole thing. It's crazy.
Linda: The thing in New Jersey too, is, there's no real Athletic Commission. So somewhere like New York, you have to have a license to wrestle, and you have to have a license to operate. In New Jersey, as long as you got a permit for where you're wrestling. Like if it's in a field, or you pay the VFW, the right kind of money, and you have insurance. Anybody can fund and run a wrestling show. So, there's not really a whole lot of accountability, because anybody can do it. Which means anybody's going to do anything and then that anybody is going to run the show and be like, well, I'm the promoter. Or I'm Booker, or I'm the locker room guy, or I'm a veteran, because I've been wrestling for four minutes, and you've been wrestling for two minutes. So let's run a show. And it's like, there's no, like, nobody knows what they're doing. because anybody can fucking do it.
Rob: Yeah, it's crazy right now. But I'm really glad that we are having this discussion. And, you know, Marissa’s so big on obviously Breaking the Silence right now. Question for you, you know, you know, Linda, we do see names like Keith Lee, you know. He says, I don't know if you guys saw he broke his story where, apparently, he was, like, drugged and woke up in a hotel room. And, you know, still to this day, he doesn't know what happened. You know, someone he was involved with, I guess, in a show in Texas, or something like that. So, this can happen to anybody. Anybody. Anywhere. Absolutely. I've seen some people recently on social media saying like, hey, yeah, I have some stuff. But I just don't want to talk about it. I don't want to share that, you know, Marissa, I’ll throw this to you first. Your kind of thoughts on this. You know, because, you know, I truly, I mean, again, not to pressure anyone, but I do really think, you know, like we always say like you were saying your books Breaking the Silence is that first step? And I think in a way, you're also freeing yourself in a way, your thoughts on that?
Marissa: Yeah, no, I 100% agree. You're doing a lot of good things by breaking your silence. And of course, it's terrifying. You know, you're opening yourself up to vulnerability and judgment. And especially in a community, like wrestling where I assume everybody kind of knows everybody. Just because it's such a like a niche interest, that you could be opening yourself up to negativity or backlash. But the positives that come out of it are, you're finding your voice again, and you're releasing this weight that you've been holding on to for so long. And you also don't know who you're helping by you breaking your silence, you could be helping somebody else, find relatability and find comfort and support. You can be that person for somebody. So, I understand and respect if you are not comfortable breaking your silence yet, and you should never feel pressured to do that. But if you have the urge to share your story or to start healing. You know, breaking your silence is the first step.
Rob: Yeah, big, big part of the healing. Very well said. Linda, your thoughts about people speaking up right now?
Linda: I think it's so fantastic. I think honestly, best thing that's ever happened in wrestling. Because first you have it goes from like, WWE had their Divas went to you know, they had the Women's Revolution. And that was really like the minute that they stopped referring to women as objects. Like when I first started, you were either like the one that wrestled or the hot one, I work for an all-women’s company that would literally hire strippers and teach them how to wrestle. As well as having women who've gone on and been very established. I did like some shows with them and then my boyfriend at the time was garbage. So, I listened to him and didn’t work there anymore. But whatever. But now you have women who are coming up who watch wrestling, and they’re young, and they're in the age of like, YouTube makeup tutorials, and you can be really pretty and be an awesome wrestler. Or you can be an awesome wrestler and that's it. And nobody's really like, you're the funny one, you're the pretty one. And you're the powerhouse. Like now it's like, you can be whatever the fuck you want, which is great. So, it started there, I think like actually respecting the women's work. But then a lot of people took advantage of that. And they're like, oh, you're really good. Let me show you a few moves, and that’s when they take advantage of you. But I think being able to just anybody who ever wanted to do it is now respected. And it's not like Diva’s photoshoots in Tahiti, it's like just go wrestle, because that's what we care about. Now that gave, so that gave people the opportunity to be there. Now, that I think is giving them confidence or giving women confidence to come forward. And if you notice, a lot of these stories aren't like last week at a show in Oklahoma, Somebody drugged me in a bathroom at a bar. It’s five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 17 years ago. And you see a lot of people reacting negatively, which I just want to fucking slam them all right in the face. Like, “WeLl, WhY aRe YoU bRiNgInG iT uP nOw? Because 17 years ago, you couldn't fucking say anything. Because then you get a reputation and then would never go anywhere. And thought like, and if you love wrestling, like the worst thing that could happen is not making it. So shut up! And you do what you have to do, which is horrible but that's the reality of the situation. Because you're listening to all the wrong people and when there's 10 of them on a show when only one of you, You know, that's just kind of what it turns into. But I'm so proud of everyone. Like I said, I'm fortunate enough that nothing hardly major happened to me. But people speaking out, made me realize, like, some of the things that happened when I was younger, I listened to really terrible advice. Or I listened to the wrong thing about one woman or when one of my friends was booked somewhere. And I asked him why he wouldn't bring me on a show. But then he gave me shit for not trying to get him booked on my show. Like those kinds of things are all those are our own stories. Or, you know, when I was dating the guy and I would wrestle in like a skirt, but I had like, literally opaque stockings, and then fishnet and then socks and then like this, and then a bodysuit, and then a pair of shorts. And then this he would always be like, what are you wearing under that? Why did you take a picture with that guy? That's also a form of abuse. And I didn't even realize it at the time. Like, oh, he's just worried that somebody's going to see my skirt. Like, what an asshole. He doesn't talk to me. And it's like, he's just controlling what I'm wearing. And he's controlling who I'm talking to. And he's doing all these things. And I think his fear was, I would make it and then not bring him with me. And, and just that kind of stuff happens too. And it's like, I've had an interesting few day just thinking about things that I've always ignored and always thought of like, Oh, that's just how it is. Like, no, that's not how it is like, that absolutely isn't how it is. It shouldn't be like because I'm super friendly to a wrestler at the beginning of a show, like, oh my god, I like your ringer robe, or I like your scarf, or I like your gimmick, and they're really nice to me. In the end I'm an innocent mind. Honestly, I have a potty mouth, but an innocent mind. I just think like, I think everybody thinks like me. Like, if you're being nice to someone, you're being nice to them. I'm not being nice to you, because I want to suck your dick for booking later. Pardon my French. But like I've been at a show where I was so excited to be there. And then afterwards, you know, we're at a bar and we're having drinks and then I find out later that they're asking all these questions. And like two dudes, and they were asking me all these questions. And somebody was like, a week later, like, Oh, yeah, right after you have that dude, or right after you shook his hand, he was like, she's going to suck one of our dicks later. And I just thought somebody was being nice. Yeah, that's what happens when people fall for that kind of shit and that's trash. Like absolute trash. And I don't even think about those things but now people speaking up and you’re seeing these things. Like, holy shit. I was fortunate in that situation that day. That was one of the real first like, Five Guys days. And like Tommy was there and I think Pat was there too. I don't know. But like, I felt protected. Like when I was with Five Guys at SWF, we would joke around and make fun of people and you do whatever, but not one of those guys ever made me feel uncomfortable. Like Vinny, and Tommy, and Preston, I never felt like somebody was, you know, they were being nice to me just because they want to get with me. They were all happy outside of work. If anything, I felt like they would hover near me to make sure nobody else would screw with me. I always felt very safe with them. And it made that run and wrestling very fantastic for me.
Marissa: So, I think you saying that kind of just, didn't solve the problem, obviously, but kind of offered a solution to create maybe a small group of people that you trust and surround yourself with. You know, I know, it goes back to when you said before, that you don't really know who you can trust because everyone's kind of their fake persona. But what if, what if? No, there were like, almost clubs created, so that, you know, you have a group of people that if something happened to you, you know, you can go to and trust them, and they'll give you the good advice, and they'll take care of it. Is that feasible?
Linda: So that's honestly, it's like it and all sounds great. And what sad is, is that's what you think from the beginning. Like what we said earlier, like, you're supposed to trust somebody with your body from not break your bones, but you can't trust somebody with your body to the point where they're going to physically assault you. But I don't know how to how to verbalize it. Oh, but um, I don't know I mean, Rob, you probably have heard of her. Oh my god, I can't even think of a wrestling right now. Damn. What the hell is her wrestling name?
Rob: Indie wrestler?
Linda: Yeah. Terra Calaway. Terra Calaway. She, I've noticed on Twitter and on Facebook and you know, we found one or two shows together. I think she's a fantastic human. Her husband is Jeff Cannonballs. He is also fantastic. Two of the most genuine people, they like… She is super affected by this right now. And I'm pretty sure she's looking to put a group together. I don't know how they're trying to look to it, I only just saw it briefly. I'm pretty sure she's trying to put together a group. Like she had put it on Twitter. Like, if you are going to a show and you feel uncomfortable, I will go with you. I will read you on. I will make sure nobody hurts you. And I think after they got married, I think she stepped back a bit. I mean, she's still doing wrestling with depression, she does fundraisers or with Dropkick Depression. She is fantastic. She's very aware of mental health. And from what I see has a stepped up and he's trying to make sure you know, either herself or a group of people will, you know, make wrestling safe again, or for the first time really.
Marissa: If you could connect me to her, that would be awesome. Because I could definitely work with her through my nonprofit to do something.
Linda: She is an A plus human. And she could probably also break anyone's face.
Rob: And wow, this has been a great conversation. And I thank you guys again for a few minutes, I think we really tackled some things. You know, like I keep saying we did pull back that curtain, you know. There's a, there's a lot of good that that comes out of this Wrestling World. There's a lot of charities, a lot of really, really good people that have certainly helped me in my career. And I'm so thankful for that this is all this stuff breaks my heart. And there's also a lot of just terrible, terrible things that are just unacceptable that we don't want to see. Let's get rid of this right now. Promoters, it's your job to make sure this stuff doesn't happen. Veterans, you know, be a leader, you know, lead the right way. For the younger talent, you know, obviously, you're growing up, you probably grew up really, really fast in this business as I've seen. You know, just be careful, you know, surround yourself with good people. You know, try not to be naive, you know, try to have a good head on your shoulders as best you can. And everyone else look out for those younger talents. Before we get out of here. Ladies, anything else that you just want to say to wrestlers or anyone in this business that may you know, find themselves in a bad situation, anything they can do to kind of just be safe.
Linda: I just want to say like, it's not all bad. And what I what I fear right now is that people won't follow their dreams, because they're worried somebody might hurt them. I will point anybody in the right direction of the right people to train with. I am really inspired, like I said, by Terra. Like, if you need a mom to go with you, and knock somebody out or to make you feel safe, like I was talking earlier about the buddy system. Marissa, like, I'm all about that. Like, if I can get to a show, I will do it. If I can't get there, I will find somebody who will make you feel comfortable because there are really good people in wrestling. There are people that care about your talent, they care about your success, and they care about you as a person more importantly. And I will do whatever I can and make sure the right people are running shows. The right people are working shows, because the last thing you want to have to worry about this. Like I mean not my oldest son is going to be 12 and in a couple of years, he's going to be the same age as I was when I went to my first wrestling show with my friend. And if he wanted to go to a show, I don't want to have to worry like, well, is he going to the right show with the right people or somebody's going to take advantage of him? Is somebody going to hurt him? And like, the worst thing is, you know, fearing for your children's safety at a place where they're supposed to feel safe.
Marissa: And I think snowballing off that is to be situationally aware. Now, that's not to say that sexual assault or rape or anything is the survivors fault, ever. It is never under any circumstance, the victim’s fault, or the survivor’s fault. It’s always the perpetrator that chooses to hurt the person; that makes the decision to offend. However, situational awareness goes a really long way. If something doesn't feel right in your gut, don't do it. Do what you need to do to stay safe. And if somebody is making you uncomfortable, or you're alone in a room with someone and they're approaching you, or scream. Do whatever you need to do to get out of the situation, and keep yourself safe. Don't be intimidated, because they are a higher level or well-known. You know, just do whatever you need to do to be safe. And I know that you're not always able to do that, but just whatever you need to do you situationally aware and keep yourself safe.
Rob: Wow, really well said. I think it's got some, you know, had a great discussion here. Some powerful things said and hopefully, you know, this is the first of many steps moving forward. Marissa, I think we're going to keep doing a couple of these if you're okay with that. I think we had a great conversation here today.
Marissa: Oh, I totally agree. I'm down to do this as much as we can.
Rob: Awesome. This was great, Linda. Thank you again, so much. For a few minutes. You were the perfect first guest for this and maybe a little teaser here Maybe down the line. You know, maybe we'll see a little Daisy Deville back in the ring again. I don't know.
Marissa: I'll come to New Jersey for that.
Linda: I'll make it fantastic for you.
Rob: All right, guys. Everyone. Stay safe. Take care of each other. Look out for one another. And yet, we'll see you guys soon. We're out.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entires lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Happy New Year! And welcome to the totally refreshed and revitalized, Healing From Emotional Abuse! Overcoming narcissism and healing from emotional abuse are so important to your mental health and to living a life of freedom, confidence and peace.
First, what is a toxic relationship?
A toxic relationship can range across various types of relationships, to include romantic, platonic and familial. Toxic relationships are generally recognized as romantic relationships, but these are not the only ones. You can also have toxic friendships and toxic familial relationships. “Toxic” means that the person is controlling, manipulative, abusive and narcissistic. Someone who is harmful or damaging to you physically, emotionally, verbally, or sexually.
What makes a toxic relationship is a person who uses tactics like gaslighting and manipulation to make you feel insecure, belittled, demeaned and upset. A toxic person wants you to feel as uncomfortable as possible so they can maintain control over you, your friendships and relationships and your surroundings.
Toxic people, toxic friends and toxic partners do whatever they have to, to isolate you from other people who might have influence over you. They make it difficult for you to trust anyone else, including yourself. They work to make you feel alone, so they are the only people that you rely on. They teach you how to damage yourself emotionally and damage outside relationships, giving them full power over you.
What does a toxic relationship look like?
Like I said, toxic relationships come in different packages, and they play mind games so you don’t see it.
For example, a friend who is overly clingy, doesn’t like it when you spend time with other people, or makes you feel guilty for spending time with other people. Manipulates you into spending time with them. They might even go as far as to pretend to be suicidal or upset to get you to spend time with them. They are exhausting, but you feel like you’re the only person that they can count on or trust, usually because they tell you that as a means to manipulate you. Being around them doesn’t make you feel good. They are energy draining, but you are the person that they depend on.
Do you have a friend that does this to you? Think about the people you hang out with. Do you feel refreshed and alive when you’re with them, or do you feel drained and exhausted? They might be toxic.
An example of a toxic family member is someone who was raised being forced to meet unrealistic expectations. Toxic parents will generally force their children to cook, clean, do laundry and handle situations that you are not mentally or physically capable of. Sometimes, these chores and activities would interfere with school work or sleep. Toxic parents also force their children to provide emotional support to them, as if they were the parent, and the parents were the children. A lot of times, toxic parents will harshly criticize their children, as opposed to constructively redirecting behavior, or having the punishment match the crime. The punishments would be outrageous in comparison to the behavior or action that was committed. They are always right, and will harshly judge other people that you bring into your life, in order to maintain control over your surrounding and influence. And, children of toxic parents will feel that their needs aren’t being met. That can mean not being hugged or shown love and affection. It can be not providing the necessities like food, clean clothes and education. And it could be not setting or creating boundaries, which in turn, influences the way the child interacts and creates boundaries in future relationships.
Outside of the immediate family, toxic people can be in the extended family. Aunts, uncles, grandparents, cousins. These toxic people will be more likely to use passive aggressive narcissism to make you look and feel bad in front of other family members. They will usually compare you to other family members who aren’t comparable to you. They’ll get jealous and try and compete with you, regardless of age gap or difference in personality. They overreact to things you do or say, creating a toxic situation and uncomfortable family environment. They are the people that will always play the victim. If they start and argument or a scene, somehow, they’ll make it seem and feel like it’s your fault. Like it’s something you did to create the problem. They will always be right, no matter what and will often use ultimatums in order to secure their control around you. They might use other family members to hold against you. For example, if you have a toxic aunt, she could use her children as pawns to influence you to behave a certain way or do something for her, or you won’t get to spend time with your cousins.
Do you ever feel drained leaving a family event? Why? Think of the people in the room. Who is it that makes you feel insecure, or always seems to have a problem with you? They might be toxic.
Toxic partners are awful. We as humans are so drawn to connection and love that we can overlook a lot of abusive and narcissistic behavior because we want to be loved. Toxic partners use the love you have for them against you. They use it to create distance between you and other people, including friends and family. They use it to make you feel guilty for making them upset, even when it really isn’t your fault. And they use it to keep control of you. They show it in a lot of ways, some more covert than others. Sometimes, it’ll be in the form of being clingy and over-affectionate. Other times it will be gaslighting you, and telling you that their anger and issues were caused by something you did or said. They will instill you with self-doubt and demean what you say, in an effort to keep you where they want you. And they will continue to push boundaries and isolate you until you leave, or worse.
So let’s get you to a safe and healthy place. Last, how to get out of a toxic relationship. Leaving is the most dangerous part of being with toxic people. They don’t like when we take away their control, so be prepared for backlash and a lot of negative energy and verbal attacks, unfortunately. Parents and partners especially can be really mean when you’re trying to leave. They will reaffirm how much you need them, that you’ll come crawling back. That they need you and you’re letting them down. And it can waiver from loving and apologetic to hatred and nastiness really quickly. The point is to keep you confused and coming back. Be strong, and know that these are all just mind games.
If you are feeling unsafe and need help figuring out a safe way to leave, follow this link for a safety planning guide. Leaving is the strongest and boldest thing you can do for yourself, but it is also the most vulnerable. The best way to leave any toxic situations is to leave with a plan. Make arrangements, find a place to stay, whether it be a shelter, with someone you know, or your own place. Be sneaky. Don’t let them know you’re planning to leave because there will most likely be backlash.
With toxic friends, the best thing to do is start limiting time with them. Start setting boundaries. They will try even harder to get you over there, but be prepared. If they are the type of person who feigns suicide when you aren’t available, then know that a call to the police for a wellness check is a way to stop that kind of behavior. If they are suicidal, the police will bring them for a psychological evaluation and keep them safe. If they aren’t, and are using that as a way to draw you back in, it will show them that you’re not falling for it anymore.
Have a plan. Be ready for the backlash, and most importantly, trust your instincts. Although you’ve probably learned to doubt yourself, I’m telling you to trust yourself on this one. Leaving a toxic person behind is the best way to start your own healing.
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Hey Everyone. My name is Marissa Faye Cohen, my website is MarissaFayeCohen.com, and I wanted to introduce myself before we start on this journey together. For the past 11 years, I have worked closely with thousands of survivors of narcissistic abuse, emotional abuse, sexual assault and harassment around the world of all sexualities and genders. I’ve published three best selling books The Breaking Through the Silence Series, and Healing From Emotional Abuse: the Three Keys for Overcoming Narcissism, all about how to heal from abuse. In these works, I use my 11 years of research and personal life experience to share my philosophy to overcoming narcissism, in order to help other survivors feel relatable, find healthy relationships, and boost confidence. That has become my life mission. To help as many survivors heal from their emotional abuse as possible. Between my books, the Breaking Through the Silence series, coaching programs and my Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, I have created a system to help anyone suffering heal from emotional abuse.
On this podcast, the goal is to answer the questions and concerns that survivors have in terms of overcoming and healing from their abuse. Can you heal from abuse? Narcissist definition. Is my partner a narcissist? Healing from narcissistic abuse. Steps to healing from abuse. Confidence Exercises. Confidence. Self Love. and Self Esteem. Healthy Relationships. What are toxic relationships? And much more.
I know that what you’re feeling right now is difficult, disheartening and it feels like the pain will never go away. But it will. I have worked with over a thousand survivors of emotional and narcissistic abuse, and created a philosophy to legitimately healing from emotional abuse. And it can and will help you overcome your narcissism, and live a free, confident and peaceful life.
Right now, imagine that you’re standing on a cliff, and across a deep deep canyon, is the happiest version of yourself. You see yourself smiling, surrounded by healthy relationships and good friendships. You see yourself having fun, and laughing. What are you doing? I have built the bridge to get you from here, where you’re standing now, to the other side. All you have to do it let me guide you across the bridge. If you’re ready to feel free raise your fist and say YES! If you’re ready to wear confidence, raise your fist and say YES! If you’re ready to live peacefully without fear, raise your fist and say YES! Awesome! You’re ready to start Healing From Emotional Abuse
Your abuse doesn’t define you. It’s the steps you take to heal that will determine the rest of your life.
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today I'm thrilled to be talking to Todd Boczkowski. He's a child survivor of domestic violence and homicide. His father murdered his mother, got away with it, and then four years later murdered his stepmother. He would be convicted of killing both of them. He was on death row until his death sentence was converted to another life sentence. In 2018, he was paroled for his mother's murder, but is still serving another life sentence. Todd has been featured on a handful of crime shows such as Forensic Files, and some media outlets believe his father is a serial killer. He served in the military for over 14 years, including two combat tours to Iraq and Afghanistan. Since the military, he's been a best-selling author, speaker and entrepreneur. Now, Todd's goal is to help domestic violence survivors turn their pain into an online business. Oh my gosh, Todd, welcome on the show. And dang! You had a crazy childhood, huh?
Todd: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. And yes, it's, it's definitely something you:
- Don't exactly hear about too often. And
- You kind of wish that your childhood was dramatically different, right?
Marissa: I can imagine. Oh, my goodness. Okay. Well, please share your story with us. I'm so intrigued.
Todd: Sure. So, you know, as you kind of alluded to, in the introduction. So I was only a child when all of this happened. I do have two older siblings. I was born and raised in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, but I believe I was about one or two. And my father had his own entrepreneurial kind of endeavors. And he decided that he wanted to move my family and I to North Carolina to start an ice cream business. So that's where he moved us from Pittsburgh to North Carolina. He was busy building up his business. And in the meantime, you know, underneath it all my mom and my dad's marriage, I guess for lack of a better term, it started to fade. It started to kind of unravel. We were far from any kind of family support. My mom was the disciplinarian. So they're starting to have some issues within their marriage. And of course, you know, being a little kid, that was unbeknownst to me and my siblings. And then it was around fall of 1990. My parents set me and my siblings down, and they said that they were going to be separating and headed towards a divorce. I was five years old at this point. Yeah, I had no idea what that meant. I had no idea, you know, what a divorce meant. And for all intents and purposes, everything else was still the same in the house. But my parents lived two separate lives at that point. My father was working at a job, like a night shift as like a telesales company. And my mom was doing stuff with us during the day. So, you know, nothing really kind of changed, except they flip flop schedules. But then in the winter of 1990, it was early morning in November, I, you know, thought I heard screams, or I thought that I was having a nightmare. And I realized that the screaming was actually coming from inside the house. And so the next thing that I really remember is being outside of our house, pretty much directing the paramedics, to our place, and my dad rushed me and my siblings to a neighbor's house. My mother was taken to the hospital; she would later be pronounced dead. And then, of course, you know, the next day I, as a little kid, I mean, you don't know what's going on. There's all kinds of confusion. I'm trying to figure out what happens. You know, my dad sat me and my siblings down. He explained to us that, you know, my mom had passed away. And of course, again, being that young, I had no idea what that meant. But I just thought it was a terrible accident. You know, up to this point, there was no abuse signs, anything like that going on in the household, that I can really recall. And unknown to me that the authorities were suspicious of, you know, the events that happened that night, but they didn't have anything to really go on. After a few months after, you know, my mom passed away, my father decided to move me and my siblings back up to Pittsburgh. My father was, you know, trying to get things back on track with his life. And, you know, soon he started dating someone else. And that woman, her name is Marianne. And she looked very, very similar to my mom. And for me, that was actually a comfort. So it was almost as if, you know, my mom had passed, and in a way, like reincarnated into this woman that, you know, came into our lives. So she became part of, kind of like our group. They started dating: my dad and this woman, Marianne. They ended up getting engaged. They ended up getting married. This woman, Marianne, she adopted me, my brother and sister. From the outside looking in, you would not have believed that she was a step parent. I think that step parents can sometimes have kind of like a negative connotation to it. It was nothing like that, you know. We took her in just as well, and just as fast as she took us in. And then, again, things were kind of back to normal. We were living in a nice, new house, in a newer development in the suburbs of Pittsburgh. I was missing something. And then I was getting that back. Another November night, this was now in 1994, something happened. And I didn't really realize it until the next day. The next day, I went to school, and you know, me and my sister, we were in elementary school. We left later than my brother. And every morning, we would kiss our mom, goodbye. And she always wanted to make sure that we were dressed appropriately for school. And of course, you know, being a kid, you know, you try to pick out your own clothes. That's the kind of parent that she was. She wanted us to look presentable. And, you know, we were such in a hurry that morning, we forgot to give her a kiss goodbye. And later on that day, a relative picked us up from school. And that was a little odd, a little peculiar. We went out to dinner. And then later on that night, we were supposed to go home. And, you know, we weren't even allowed to get out of the car. My grandmother was at our house; she told us to go to her house. I saw a news van across the street. So at this point, you know, things started popping up in my mind, like, what is going on? Like something's not right. We get to my grandparents' place. My dad is there. Everybody is there, except my stepmom. So, kind of questions start to loom. Like what is really going on here? My dad sits me and my siblings down. Pretty much tells us that they were in the hot tub, our family hot tub. And, you know, there's an accident. And our stepmom was in heaven with our mom. Now I'm older. I'm four years older now. So I'm nine. And I just couldn't believe it. It's really just indescribable as to what I was feeling. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know how to react. Later on that night, I would see my father up on the news. You know, I started wondering and thinking like why? I'm nine years old. I don't understand what's going on around me. But my family's story is on the news. And then on my 10th birthday, which was a week later, my father was arrested for murdering my stepmother. Yeah, I again, I didn't know what that meant either. I didn't know what charged and arrested. You know, there's so many adult type-of-words being used and I have no idea what's going on. But yes, he was arrested on my 10th birthday. He was taken to prison, and he would be charged with murder of my stepmom. Two weeks later, they reopened the investigation of my mom's death and they decided to charge him with murder for her death. A couple years later, his first murder trial was actually in North Carolina was actually my mom's murder. He was convicted and he was sentenced to life in prison. A couple of years later in ‘99 he faced his second murder trial here in Pittsburgh. He was found guilty of that. He was convicted and then sentenced to death by lethal injection. And he was on death row up until 2004. So, something about one of his appeals, they were able to kind of get that through and they converted his death sentence to another life sentence. And then during the two trials, you know, I bounced around from relatives to, you know, foster care. So some of my relatives were no longer able to take care of me and my siblings. My siblings and I were bounced around from foster home to foster home until the courts were like, “Hey, look, these kids are bouncing around, we need to find, you know, kind of like a more permanent kind of solution.” And the one thing that my siblings and I were absolutely adamant on, was, you know, we didn't want to get split up. At this point, I'm the youngest, I believe I was like, 11 or 12 years old at the time. You know, we started to realize the permanence and the absolute atrocities that are just ripping through our entire family. And the simple fact that we have to stick together now. Like, it's just us. So that was the one thing that we are adamant on. And so it was difficult finding a foster home. It's one thing to take in one foster child as it is, but pretty much asking someone to expand their family by three teenagers, overnight, is a really tall order. So, you know, they were having trouble finding a family who is willing to do that. They asked us if we wanted to go a little bit more public with it. We kind of knew at that point, like, look: they're having trouble finding a place for all three of us. So it's either go more public with this, or we face the possibility of getting split up. So that's what we did. We were on the news here in Pittsburgh, they did a story on us for the paper. Then the story kind of caught wildfire. It generated a lot of interest. And from there, my siblings and I, we were able to kind of visit families. And we were able to make the selection, which is actually not very typical. We selected a family that we're comfortable with. All three of us moved in, and all three of us stayed there until we aged out at 18. And, so yeah, that's pretty much my story in terms of me growing up. I joined the military straight out of high school. So at 18, actually, literally three weeks after I graduated high school, I was in boot camp. I was in the Air Force for 10 years active duty, and then another four years in the Air National Guard.
Marissa: Wow, that's an incredibly traumatic childhood. I'm so sorry that you went through all of that. But how are you doing as an adult?
Todd: I take one day at a time. My military experience, I was actually a military police officer. So, up until I joined the military and kind of getting into 18, 19, 20 years old, I was under the assumption that my father didn't do it. There is, like I said before, there is no real sign of abuse. From what I can recall from what I remember. And joining the military, it really kind of gave me some kind of direction. Being in the military was the first time that I was able to be completely on my own, away from any kind of outside influences. I went through a law enforcement type of training. That was, you know, my job. And I really started thinking more like a cop. And the more and more I thought about my story and what had happened, like there was just some things that, it didn't make sense to me. At one point, and how I kind of like to describe it is, my heart was really being pulled in two different directions. On one end, you know, I thought my father could never do this. Because, let's face it, who in their right mind wants to ever believe that their own parents, that their own father, is capable of doing something like that? That was on one end. And then the other end was, it doesn't make sense. My first few years in the military, it was a struggle. And I even went to visit my father a few times. And I kind of started to see a different side of him. I witnessed his manipulation firsthand. He's highly, highly manipulative. He's also very intelligent. He's someone that read books on how to manipulate and control people. Just a lot of incidents that kind of makes you scratch your head, literally. I have in my possession a book that he used to own. It was something about criminology. One of the chapters that are actually bookmarked, it talked about how if you slip someone a drug and mix it with alcohol, it can basically make it undetectable. You know, especially for my stepmother’s death, he was really kind of heavy on the point that, you know, she was an alcoholic, that she drank a lot. You know, she had a high blood content during her death. So just a lot of things that really make you question who this person really is. And after I started to see and started to witness some of these odd behaviors, did I really start to really, truly believe that he did it. And that played an effect. You know, as I started to grow up and mature over time as well, you know, my military experience. So, you know, I've been deployed to both Iraq and Afghanistan. I've been exposed to other types of traumas. And the thing that they say about trauma is the more that you're exposed to, the more susceptible you are to develop anxiety and PTSD kinds of thing. And that's pretty much what has happened with me. I started to notice things. I guess, in a way, you could say that some of my military trauma that I've been exposed to, kind of opened up Pandora's box, if you will. In terms of you know, trauma and healing. I not only am trying to heal from those things, but you know, from being as a child. I could honestly say that, as a nine year old as a 10 year old, I had PTSD, I had symptoms of it. My family wasn't really aware of it. I wasn't aware of it. But I definitely showed some classic PTSD type behaviors. And, you know, growing up and kind of learning some things, I realized that whenever I was five years old, I was actually physically present in the bathroom where my mother was killed. And the person that actually confirmed that to me was from the horse's mouth. My father actually told me that I was physically present. But to this day, I have absolutely no recollection; it was almost as if I completely blocked it out. Whether if it's because of trauma, or because I was so young, I don't know. But in a way, I can say that probably did help me. It's difficult to have some of those things, I guess, in a way kind of like, mess with your mind if you can't really remember it. Even today, I am still healing from the fallout of everything. They say that, you know, going through something like this, it's not something that you get over. It's a lifetime of healing. And it's so true. So, I'm at a point in my life, where I've actually have outlived my mother. And next year, I will outlive my stepmother. I think I'm in a place now where, you know, not only have I had life experiences, the same kinds of life experiences that are the maturity level that my parents were at that age, I feel like I can speak on that. I can understand it. And not only that, but I think that's my story, because of how it has kind of unfolded over the years, I feel like I really want to use it for something and something good. For many years, I feel like I've kind of ran away from my story. I've been on a handful of crime shows and whatnot. And how that kind of came about was not really my doing. I was still a kid whenever my story was kind of thrusted into the media spotlight. And it kind of snowballed from there. Here we are 20, 30 years later, you know, it still gets brought up. I still get approached to do, you know, documentaries and shows. And I'm at a place in my life where I feel like, by sharing my story, it will have an impact for others. And especially because it's been in the spotlight, I feel like I'm finally ready to actually step into that role. I feel like I'm ready to kind of step into that spotlight and fully accept, and I have fully accepted my story for what it is. I own my story, and everything that comes with it.
Marissa: That's incredible. I mean, what you've overcome is insane and amazing. I want to touch on a couple points that you made, just to drive them home because I think you brought up a couple really awesome things. The first thing that you said was when you are traumatized as a child, whether it be domestic violence or sexual assault or something else, you really are almost opened up as like a target for re-victimization. So that is a really good point that you brought up and I'm happy that you did because a lot of people don't understand. Why does this keep happening to me? I wish I could explain it better, but we just have this air about us, and abusers will smell it on us, right? And so we end up getting re-victimized over and over again until we start healing. And then you said that your trauma response was to block out those moments of when you were in the bathroom with your father and mother and things were happening. And that's so common, because our brain goes into survival mode. So if we have to just forget or dissociate from our reality, to keep us safe, that's what our brain does. And that's a totally, totally normal response. And sometimes, bringing up those memories isn't always a good thing. So I always try and urge people not to try and dig up that stuff; it's almost not worth knowing. Because it's, again, going to re-traumatize you.
Todd: Exactly, exactly. And actually, I had people ask me, you know, this isn't something I'm very vocal about. I'm starting to a little bit. Maybe it's because, you know, I have accepted and started to accept, you know, everything about my story. But there are some red flags in terms of sexual abuse, possible sexual abuse. I don't recall anything. I don't have any proof. I don't have any evidence. I don’t remember. But there are some red flags; there are some suspicious types of behaviors that were going on at that point in time. So, that's all that I can say is that I have my suspicions. And I just leave it at that. And when I sit back and think about it, if someone is capable of taking someone's life, they're capable of anything. So the probability of that happening is very high. And I've had people ask me, well, would you want to go under hypnosis? Or use hypnosis therapy or something like that? And I'm just like, “No, no, no, no, no, no. You're messing with something.” We can sit here and debate whether or not a hypnosis is acceptable or not as a therapy treatment. But you're absolutely right, re-victimization. If you don't remember, there's a reason why. I think that if you actively go and search for it, and if you want to find out, you're kind of, in a way, playing with fire, because you don't know how you're going to react. So you brought up a great point night, and that's something that I do believe in. If I know from how I am today, that if, as a child, if I was able to recall some of those things, I'm not so sure that I would even be here. And that's how powerful some of those recollections can have on someone's psyche. It could drive you over the edge. But yeah, you're absolutely right. And not just having multiple traumas, but you're more susceptible to having some kind of additional health related issues: anxiety, PTSD, things of that nature. I mean, I can sit here and say that for a long time, I didn't have such a problem with any of that stuff. And it wasn't until I actually started going through the VA, to get some help with some of the stuff. Actually, ironically, one of the therapists, he asked me almost incredulously. He was like, “So have you ever, given everything that you've been exposed to, have you ever been through some kind of trauma therapy or trauma treatment?” And I would, my response was, “Well, I've been in and out of therapy pretty much my whole life.” And he was like, “No, no, no, no, no. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about specialized actual trauma therapy.” And when I sit back and think about it, and the answer to that is just no. So I never had gone through an actual specialized treatment.
Marissa: Is that something that you have an interest in doing? Moving forward, working with trauma specialists to help you move past the things that you have experienced?
Todd: Oh, that's, that's definitely an area of interest. You know, for me, getting out of the military, I really kind of felt alienated, if you will. I didn't really feel like anyone could really understand me. Entrepreneurship, for me, became an outlet, kind of like a coming home. The challenges, the trials, the tribulations of entrepreneurship, in my opinion, are very, very relatable to me. Some of the challenges, some things that you have to overcome and how you approach challenges are very similar to how I've approached those challenges in my own life, if that makes sense.
Marissa: It absolutely does. What do you do, as far as entrepreneurship? You work with domestic violence survivors to help them create effective online businesses? Tell me about that.
Todd: You know, over the past six years, I've been a digital marketing consultant. I've consulted with dozens of small businesses. I've even consulted for a publicly traded company. It was all about, you know, helping them with their digital marketing efforts, helping them grow their business, growing their bottom line, helping them sell their products and services that they have. Especially nowadays, you know, we live in an era where being a quote unquote, social media influencer is a legit profession now. And that's something that I know an awful lot about, you know. That's kind of like where I kind of want to mesh the two; where I want to help domestic violence survivors, if they have the want and the need to actually build a business, have the same entrepreneurial kind of spirit. And that's actually kind of quite often, not just in domestic violence survivors, but trauma survivors overall. And this is kind of like what I was talking about before where, you know, you kind of feel alienated, you know. You don't really feel like you are accepted in like a typical work-like setting. So, you know, we live in a world now where you can literally work from home. Not because of a pandemic, but because of the capabilities. And one of the proponents, for me to really start to share my story was, actually, about a year and a half ago, I was approached to do another documentary story about my story that was recently aired on the ID channel. Shockingly, I was actually talking to the production and to the crew, they have the same capabilities that I do. So I think that when you look at survivors and wanting to share their story, a lot of people want to write a book, right? A lot of people don't really know this, but when you write a book, you're essentially starting a business. I think that there's definitely a lot of room there for teaching and passing down some of the things that I know, the skills that I have, and that I can help people with. And pass that on to a group of people that I feel deserve it for one and two, it can make an impact with.
Marissa: That’s awesome. And you're totally right. The second you write your book, you're branding yourself. I mean, that's exactly what happened to me. I wrote a book about my stories: my first book, Breaking Through the Silence: The Journey to Surviving Sexual Assault. And, I mean, people started turning to me, in the next moment, telling me about their experiences and how I can help them and how they can help others. We do, we have this spirit after we are abused, and we start healing, we just want to help others because we know where they were. We've dug ourselves out of the trenches, and we want to help others, too. And give a hand up. So I commend you so much for what you're doing. Thank you very much. Because I think that that's phenomenal, wanting to help your own and make our community thrive.
Todd: When I think about my story, and what it has kind of snowballed into over the years... Which, by the way, I was still in high school, when a relative of my stepmother decided to write a book. So there's actually already a book out about my story. But it's not from me. It's not from one of my siblings. It's from somebody else. Quite frankly, they didn't exactly have the best intentions. And, you know, that's kind of common. The whole quote unquote, True Crime genre. It's a business in a sense. But what I see from that aspect is that there's not a lot of people actually impacting; they just want to share the story. And, of course, you know, these TV shows, they do it for a reason, too. They're not doing it for the impact, you know. They're doing it because there's money in it. As I sit back and think with the story that I have, I could really use that as a platform to really help people. And yes, it is a little awkward, and it's a little weird, but that's something that I'm learning to deal with myself. But when I sit back and think of my mom and my stepmom, that's the kind of people that they were. They were two women who really helped others. They were heavily involved in their church. They both helped other people in their own unique ways. And so when I think about my story and how I can move forward with it, I think that that's the best way to also honor them as well.
Marissa: Thank you so much. Last question. Do you have any advice for survivors of domestic violence or sexual assault that want to build a business?
Todd: Yes. Come join my Facebook group, Domestic Violence Business Builders. We'll get you started. And you can even take part of my free training that I have, as well. So, and any advice, I guess just for any domestic violence survivor or any trauma survivor actually, is don't quit. That's probably a phrase that I live and breathe by. As long as you have that, there's hope.
Marissa: Thank you so much. That's awesome advice. I really appreciate you being here today, and sharing your story, and giving this amazing advice and insight to other survivors. I think that it'll be very beneficial for a lot of people.
Todd: All right, well, great. Thank you so much for having me on and looking forward to connecting with you and your group and what you do here as well.
Marissa: If you are a survivor of domestic violence or sexual assault, and you're interested in writing a book about your story, or sharing your story in a book format, visit my website at http://www.marissafayecohen.com/publishing-services. I've made it my mission to publish the stories of survivors who want to speak their truth and get their story out and publicized. And as Todd mentioned, this would be a really good way to start your business. Once you have a book you're branded. So feel free to reach out to me either on any of my social media outlets, my email or through my website for more information about my publishing services. But I would be beyond thrilled to work with you in jump starting your business and publishing your book.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today we have an awesome special guest September Burton. She is a fertility expert and abuse survivor. September is a champion for women survivors of domestic violence and narcissism. After years of emotional abuse, verbal abuse, physical abuse, and abuse of power, she's finally managed to break free. September started her career as a US Navy personal chef to four-star admirals stationed in Sicily, Italy. She has since shared her expertise and passion for nutrition as a recurring guest on KCMJj 93.9 radio show, Happy News Now, and developed a six-week eating for fertility nutrition plan for prospective parents. That's awesome. She's the founder and CEO of 4 Months to Fertile, working with couples and mothers struggling with primary or secondary infertility, and is the organizer of the first ever Colorado fertility conference. September is passionate about living a life of purpose, sharing her knowledge on the healing power of food, and freeing women from the debilitating shame and guilt that often accompanies domestic violence and narcissism. “There's a magic that happens when women heal together. For every woman who speaks she empowers 1000s of other women stand with me speak with me heal with me.” —September.
Welcome on the show. I'm so excited to have you.
September: Thank you so much for having me, Marissa, I'm really, I'm super excited to be here. So, thank you.
Marissa: Of course, I just have to say in the last year, I want to say I've had so many women who have experienced sexual assault and domestic violence reach out to me about infertility issues and miscarriages. And I never really related the two things. So, I'm excited to hear more about that. But if you wouldn't mind, would you first tell us your story?
September: Um, yeah, of course. So, my story is, I'm learning more and more. The more I speak out, and the more I, you know, I'm on Twitter and Facebook and all of the social media platforms talking to other survivors, the more I'm realizing that my story is not that unique. It's a story of a narcissistic abuser, who literally just has no moral compass whatsoever. And is willing to do absolutely anything to destroy me. So, we met and started dating and like, the first six months together, were just phenomenal. But looking, but knowing what I know, now, you know, the red flags were definitely there. You know, there was the love bombing. And there were all kinds of grooming going on that I had no idea of. I didn't know any of this, you know, when it was happening. And so, after the first six months, I actually broke up with him six months into the relationship. And the reason that I think that's so important is because I had been divorced previously. So, this was kind of my second, you know, real marital-type relationship. And so, I had after that divorce, I had adopted a lot of self care techniques. When the first husband who was also in the army, when we split up, I was pregnant, and I was very early in a pregnancy with my fourth child. And so, I didn't really have much of a social life. I definitely wasn't dating because I was going through pregnancy. And then I was taking care of a newborn and things like that. And she stayed with me 100% of the time for the first nine months. So, I didn't have much of a social life. So, what I did was I really went inside and started healing myself and started taking care of myself and really, you know, studying. Using nutrition to heal my emotions, which that's huge. You can use food to heal your emotions, and but also like learning things like meditation, and a lot of self care techniques. I did a lot of studying my ancestors. I've got American Indian in me. And so, I did a lot of studying about the culture and the history, and where I come from. Things like that. And so, I really grew as a person during that time period. And so, after that, for six months, when I broke up with him, we were separated, I think it was about a three-week period that we were not together. And during that three weeks, I gave it all up, and then went back to him. And so, I think that something in me intuitively knew that I couldn't be with him and take care of me. So, I gave up all of my self care practices, and went back to him. And then we were together for another four and a half years after that. And it was just, you know, horrific abuse throughout the rest of the duration of the relationship.
Marissa: That's really insightful. Like that's really self aware that I mean, even looking back now to be able to say, oh my god, I knew in my gut, in my soul that like I couldn't take care of myself with him, wow. Can you expand on that a little bit?
September: Well, I, I don't know how much I can say about it because it was more like you said, just an intuitive knowing. And I definitely was not aware of it at all at the time. It wasn't something that I really figured out until after the separation and actually, fairly recently to be completely honest. And the reason that I figured it out is I've been using a lot of poetry to heal my soul. That's one of my, you know, healing mechanisms right now — both writing poems and reading a lot of feminist poetry and things like that. And so, I wrote a poem one day, and it was about the meditation. And I went back to meditating a few months before he left the family home. I knew I was not okay, I lost my shit. Because you know, you do go crazy when you're with a narcissist, they that's part of their, you know, abuse tactic is to make you feel like you're completely insane. And so, I knew that, like, I wasn't crazy, but I thought I was crazy. If that makes any sense, whatsoever. So, I had to get back to doing something that would make me feel like me again. And so, I started meditating again, and I made it a priority again. And so, you know, at least once, sometimes twice a day, I would do like a 20-minute-long meditation. And he pretended to meditate with me some days. He would sit down, and while he would lay down on the bed, and, you know, be there with me, I guess, physically while I was doing meditation. But that with the poem that I wrote, says, you know, the meditation made him out, the meditation made him angry, the meditation made me cry. But it wasn't the meditation, it was that the meditation was waking me up to what was actually going on. And so, it was I needed, like to get my head clear, and to get my head straight again. And it took many, many, I mean, I'm a year and a half out of that relationship now, and I'm still, you know, getting my head straight again. So, it's not like I'm done at this point. But I definitely used the meditation as it woke me up. It helped me to see what was really going on. So, I can't really answer your question. I wouldn't have known at the time, when I did that. I had no idea what I was doing.
Marissa: That's totally fair. And that was probably an unfair question to me to ask, I was just so intrigued by it. So, let's talk about healing with food. Statistically, a lot of people who experience sexual assault or domestic violence, narcissism or both develop an unhealthy relationship with food as a coping mechanism. And it there's a lot of underlying reasons for it. One is comfort. Two is changing your appearance to become less attractive, unconsciously. I mean, there's just so many reasons. So, can you talk about how you had a healthy relationship with food after abuse?
September: Yeah, well, you're absolutely right, people definitely use food to make themselves less attractive, so that it's less likely to happen again. There's the comfort aspect of food. I mean, the energetics of food is a fascinating topic that I really, really love to dive into. And just a couple of little things, like, when you look at lettuce, any sort of green lettuce, it grows upwards, right? And so, it's growing up like it's going towards the sky. So, if you eat more of those green foods, your spirits are going to be lifted up, and you're going to be just a little bit happier. And it's very subtle differences at first, but you know, cumulated, over time, it actually becomes a huge difference. And it just, it changes your whole world. So, there's things like that, that you can use. One of the more powerful things that I like to do though, when people are getting started is to use something called amino acid therapy. And amino acids, what I mean by that is things like tryptophan and tyrosine, and things like that. And the reason that those are so powerful is because they're the precursors for all of your neurotransmitters. So, your serotonin, your dopamine. You know, your feel-good hormones, or neurotransmitters, right, the things that put you in a good mood. And when you've experienced trauma, and you know, like, I have a diagnosis of C- PTSD from all the years of abuse. And so, when you've experienced that kind of trauma, and you've developed like that PTSD, your brain just simply doesn't fire in the same way that it did before. And so, I use these amino acids, basically, to help boost your mood quickly, easily, in a way where you don't have to use a lot of willpower, because a lot of times changing your diet, you know, there's a lot of willpower involved. And there's just so many emotions. So, if you lift your emotions at first, then it becomes easier to focus on the diet and to eat the things that are actually going to be healthier for you.
Marissa: I've never looked at it that way. I've always looked at dieting is okay, so I either can't eat stuff, or I have to restrict the amount that I eat. But I've never thought of that. So that's really smart. Do you per-chance have like a short list of foods with high amino acids?
September: So, when I'm doing amino acid therapy with somebody, I use supplements. Just because it's easy to pop a pill. And we live in a pill popping society where that's it's easy. And so, if that's going to boost your mood, let's pop the pills for a little while. And it works very quickly, within a day usually start to feel a little bit lighter, a little bit better, you know, you're walking a little bit better and things like that. But as far as the foods that have those amino acids in them, a lot of proteins. You know, your meats have been high in those amino acids. But you need to be able to break down the protein properly once you eat it. So, this, this is kind of going to go down a whole different rabbit hole if we go this way. But you need to be able to break down the protein properly, and a lot of our digestive systems are off. And so, we're not actually properly breaking down those proteins in order to get those free-floating amino acids out of those proteins. So, there's, there's a whole system and a whole program that you kind of have to get into. But that's why I start with the pills. I say just go buy the supplements, they're cheap, they're easy to take, and they'll shoot really quickly. And then we can have a more rational conversation and start moving in the direction of a healthier diet.
Marissa: That makes sense. Okay, so now let's kind of shift over to domestic violence and fertility, have you in your work seen any sort of connect between domestic violence and fertility issues.
September: So basically, what we're figuring out more and more, I don't know how much research there is, or scientific data there is to back this up yet. But from anecdotal evidence that's coming out, A lot of women who are in these types of relationships end up developing an autoimmune disease. An autoimmune disease basically means that your, your immune system has kind of turned on your body and is attacking itself. And it can do it in so many different ways. That that's what Fibromyalgia is, that's what Hasimoto’s is. That's what MS is. There's so many different things, different ways that it can manifest. But an autoimmune disease just means that your immune system has turned on your body and is now attacking your body. Like I said, a lot of women who are in these abusive relationships, they really develop these autoimmune diseases. And autoimmune diseases are huge, with infertility, because they affect your hormones. Your immune system is critically important in your ability to get pregnant, you have to have a very strong immune system in order to be able to carry a baby. So yes, there is definitely a correlation between being in an abusive relationship and being able to get pregnant. Another side of that would be that when you're in an abusive relationship, even before you realize that you're being abused, and you come to terms with that, you are in survival mode. And you know, at the end of the day, we are mammals, we are animals, and our bodies are designed to survive first and reproduce second. And so, if you're in survival mode, you're not going to reproduce, because your body is very intelligent, very intuitive. Your body knows what's going on. Your body knows that there's a constant threat there. And so, when there's a constant threat, you're in that fight or flight state, then you're just not going to be able to reproduce. So, there's definitely a correlation there for sure.
Marissa: Thinking about it, and thinking about the people that I've worked with, that makes a ton of sense. I knew that obviously, there's like a survival mode and that your brain goes into survival mode when you are in crisis, or in an abusive relationship, and you're in the cycle. But I didn't realize that you could only be in survival mode, or have like a fully functioning reproductive system. I just find that so interesting.
September: Our bodies are incredibly, incredibly smart and intelligent, like you said and they know. One of them messages that I want to get out to women more and more is, learning to trust your intuition. We live in this patriarchal society where our intuition has been shunned. It's been called crazy. It’s all of this stuff. And we have got to get back to trusting our intuition, because we are women, and we were blessed with intuition for a reason. And that's just like, there's nothing more to it than that. Trust your intuition.
Marissa: Yes, preach. But it's so true. You know, I'm not anti-men. I'm a feminist. And I believe that women are blessed with such incredible gifts. I mean, we have the gift of life. We have the gift of foresight that's stronger than any man could ever wish for. You know? We do we have these tells. And we're more self aware. And we are incredible beings. And I truly do wish that society wasn't so afraid of that.
September: Yeah, for sure. And but it's it is challenging, and I will be the first to admit that it's challenging. Because I'm in hiding right now. And the reason that I've been hiding is because I trusted my intuition. And I know that had I not fled when I did, I would not be here to be doing this podcast right now I would have been buried a long time ago. There's truly there's a mountain of evidence that police just won't investigate, but that's a whole other rabbit hole right there. But because they are choosing to turn their heads and ignore the signs and ignore all of that, they just branded me It's crazy. Like they just said, Oh, she's crazy. Like, let's just blow her off and forget about her because she must be crazy. And I'm like, you know what, I could have gone back, or I could have stayed. I could have handled it that way. But I would be another sad story if I had handled it that way. So, I chose to trust my intuition. And I chose to flee and go into hiding. And I don't know how long I'll be in hiding for it. But I know for certain, and it's been validated in a couple of different ways that had I not fled, I would not be here to be giving this podcast right now. I would be another sad story right now. So, you know, that's one of the challenges with trusting your intuition is you get labelled crazy. And they do it so easily. And it's just it's such a cop out, you know, because they just don't want to face anything. So, they just label you as crazy.
Marissa: Well, I'm for one, I'm really glad that you trusted your intuition. And you left. I mean, it's unfortunate that you're hiding but I'm glad you're safe. And I think that going through any abusive situation like you had mentioned earlier, they gaslight you and make you think you're crazy. The abusers that's what they do. They install us with self doubt, because it helps them maintain control over you. So, we have these intuitions, and then we're led to believe that, No, those aren't real. I can't trust myself. I'm stupid. I'm crazy. I'm dumb. You know? It's scary, because they're literally robbing us of our survival.
September: That's very true. I mean, how many women have died? Who knew? You know, there was a there was a case close to where I'm from. A year before I decided to flee and, you know, he'd been stalking for months and months by this time, and I knew that I was getting things in my gut saying it's, you know, it's time to go. But I was I was in a session with my therapist one day, and we were talking about this woman who had been murdered. And he had, you know, taken a baseball bat to her and that kind of a horrific situation. And the conversation between my therapist and I was, she said to me, she said, I wonder if she knew, I wonder if we could call her up from the grave? If she would say, Oh, I knew I saw it coming. And why, you know, if she did, why couldn't she be allowed to trust her intuition and to get herself and her child out of there and be safe? It's so sad. It's so sad. And I think that women do know.
Marissa: We're very perceptive beings, you know, and especially people who, like I said, who go through abuse or assault. We become hyper vigilant of everything. I mean, anyone you talk to who's open about having been abused will tell you they see everything. You know, that myth that moms have eyes in the back of their head. I mean, obviously, biologically, that's not true. But I can tell you that I notice every little thing in my surroundings. I'm always situationally aware, and I'm the first one to jump in when I see something going on. Even if it's 30 feet behind me, I'm aware of it. That's not like a superpower. It's a fortunate side effect of having been abused.
September: And why I think it is a superpower. It's a superpower that was developed from an unfortunate situation, but it's still a superpower.
Marissa: So, I know you're the Founder and CEO of 4 Months to Fertile, and you work with couples and mothers struggling with primary or secondary infertility. So, can you expand on that a little bit just like about what you do and how you help people?
September: Yeah, so it's all you know, I'm all nutrition based. I do try to I definitely encourage people to seek therapy, because whether you're in an abusive situation, or you're going through infertility, they're both processed as traumas. And so, either way, you really need to get some professional support. So, I'm a huge advocate for finding a really good, not all therapists are good, you've got to find a good one. But if you find a really, really good high-quality therapist who can support you through these things, I'm a huge advocate for that. But as far as like my program, I have two different things that I offer. There's the 4 Months to Fertile, which is a four-month long plan where we work together. It's based on the concept of Chinese medicine and how they see infertility. And so, in Chinese medicine, they see your fertility organs as your heart, your liver, your kidneys, and your spleen, which you know, is not what you think of when you think about fertility. But if you think about it, those are your survival organs. If any of those are not working, then your body is in survival mode. And so, it's not going to go into reproduce mode, like we were talking about earlier. So, in the 4 Months to Fertile program, we really, really focus on nourishing those organs and getting those organs back up to 100%, or at least as close as possible. So that you're It goes out of survival mode and relaxes and can get into reproductive mode. And then the other thing that I offer is with through Hawaii Surrogacy, I was a case manager for Hawaii, Surrogacy for a little while, and then I had to leave Hawaii. So, when I left Hawaii, what we did was we put this six-week program up on the website. And so, you can go, you can just go to boys surrogacy.com/nutrition, and you can get access to that six-week plan, it does give you individual access to me as well. You get to meet with me a few times, during those six weeks, while you're going through the program. That's how you get a hold of that one. If you're interested in the 4 Months to Fertile the more intensive program, then, you know, you just reach out to me. But if you're interested in the six-week program, the best way to do it is to go through the Hawaii Surrogacy website.
Marissa: That's awesome. So, I grew up in a very holistic household where we use a lot of Eastern medicine. And I was never a fan of acupuncture because I'm afraid of needles, but like my mom is big on acupuncture and Reiki and homeopathy. And so, it's not quite what you do. But Chinese medicine and Eastern medicine is, really a big part of my heart. And I think that it's way older than Western medicine. I'm trying to say that way, because the doctors are great, too. You know, there's something to be said about Western medicine. But I think that Eastern practices can and have been way more effective for an extended period of time. So, looking at it from that perspective, that it's the heart, the liver, the spleen, that’s such an interesting perspective. But I get it, because your body is connected. It's all one.
September: Yeah, it is. And I completely agree with what you're saying about Western and Eastern medicine. I mean, Chinese, I think Chinese medicine is the oldest, isn't it? It's older than Ardeveda, I think. But yeah, you're so blessed to have grown up in that type of a home. That's like, wonderful. But yeah, and acupuncture does so much for infertility. You know, I'm a huge advocate, definitely for acupuncture, chiropractic care, all of those different things. But the difference is, is that, you know, in western medicine, we essentially look at like the liver, okay, delivers not doing well, let's give you a pill to make the liver function better. And it's like, well, wait a second, why? Why is the liver not functioning very well? Like, what's the underlying problem? Like, why don't we get to the root of the problem, and then treat that and then all of a sudden, the liver starts functioning at a much more effective rate, or in a much more effective way. And that's kind of the concept. The Eastern medicine stuff is that it sees your body as a whole system. And that includes your emotions, that includes your brain and all of those, like every piece of you. And it includes your soul, and you know, all of those different things, too. So, it's that's why I think it's so much more effective.
Marissa: I totally agree. So please, plug, how can people get in touch with you, because I'm sure this is something that my listeners would be really, really eager to work with.
September: Yeah, so I'm easy to find. I've got a very unique name, which is kind of one of the blessings of having a unique name. I'm easy to find on the internet, September Burton. So, if you go to any of the social media platforms, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, like any of them, I'm on their September Burton. My website is SeptemberBurton.com. The better one to go to those Septemberburton.com/home/blog. And that's where I really share my abuse story. And I've got a lot of evidence and a lot of stuff up on that. So yeah, that would be that's the best way to get in touch with me.
Marissa: Thank you so much. What advice do you have, for survivors that are in an abusive situation? Or are trying to leave an abusive situation? What would you tell them?
September: Find people who believe you and really, really get your tribe. You have to be surrounded by people who believe you there's always going to be people who don't believe you. And that's fine, let them not believe you. Don't worry about them. Find the ones who do believe you and create a tribe, create your support system. Find a good therapist who can help you work through some of the traumas and things like that. But really, I think at the end of the day, it's about having that support system in place. Find people who believe you and if that's me, I will believe you. If that's Marissa, I'm sure she will believe you, too. So just find people who believe you.
Marissa: I will, I'll believe you, too. Thank you, again, so, so much for being here today. Oh, my gosh, you are a wealth of knowledge. And I love your spirit. You know, I really, I feel for you for having to be in hiding, but I'm so happy that you're safe and you've found your niche. And I just hope it all works out for you in the way that you want it to.
September: Well, thank you for that. I really appreciate it. And it's always an honor and a privilege to be able to talk to your guests and your listeners out there. Thank you.
Marissa: If anyone is interested in working with September, I 100% recommend it because she's knowledgeable and she is. She's has such a good energy.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent, health, wellness, health and wellness, Chinese medicine, holistic, holistic healing, soul healing, emotional health, wellness centre, health and wellbeing, health and wellness center, emotional wellness, healing the soul of a woman, wellfirst health, women wellness, women’s health and wellness, behavioral health and wellness,
September Burton: Facebook: September Burton Insta: @SeptemberBurton Twitter: @SeptemberBurton SeptemberBurton.com/Home/Blog
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Be A Good Advocate
Hello, Hello and Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse! Being a champion and overcoming our abuse is only a part of our journey. We are a community, and should be the best champions that we can be for ourselves, but also, the most empowering advocates that we can be for someone else. Today, let’s talk about the 3 best ways to be an empowering and supportive advocate for the champions in your life.
First and foremost, you have to learn to listen. We are inherently healers, and we all want to help. And that’s an incredible gift that we have as humans. We just want to help people. But sometimes, the best way to help is to just listen. Being an active listener to someone who is trying to unknot the mess that narcissists and narcissism leave behind can be more helpful than actually solving their problems.
Sometimes, champions just need to vent to someone that wants to listen. They don’t want advice, they just want to be heard and validated. And that’s okay, and it’s normal. It’s up to us as their advocate to be supportive and give them the control of that situation.
So, listen. Listen, and validate. Tell them that you believe them, and what happened isn’t their fault. Encourage them to speak, and trust you, and feel comfortable and brave for speaking their truth. Being the person a champion confides in, is big responsibility, but also a huge honor.
The second piece of advice for you is, meet them where they are. I don’t mean physically, I mean emotionally. The best way to make them feel comfortable is to match their tone. If they are being quiet and calm, you should also remain quiet and calm. If you get hyper and they are being quiet and calm when they speak, it will most likely make them want to shut down and not talk about it again.
The first time I tried to talk about my rape, I was in my college student government office with who of my colleagues. We were alone, and I brought up that my boyfriend and I had had sex for the first time, but I really didn’t want to. And I didn’t feel good. And both of them, in support of me, flew off the handle and became loud and explosive in tone and in mannerisms. They told me that what happened wasn’t right and it shouldn’t be like that. But all I could hear were loud noises and yelling. So, I retracted everything I said and didn’t talk about it again for 6 months.
Looking back, had that moment been handled differently, and I seriously don’t blame them for anything because they didn’t know, the healing process would have been much different for me.
Bottom line of advice number 2, meet them where they are. Observe their mannerisms, tone and body language, and mirror that. It will make them feel more comfortable talking to you.
The third piece of advice I have for you is to Ask for consent. It doesn’t matter what your relationship to the champion is. It could be family, best friend forever, professional help. Always ask for consent for everything during the conversation. When someone is abused or assaulted, their control is taken away. Our job is to give them the confidence in themselves to be able to make the decisions in situations. If I’m working with somebody in person, I don’t touch them in any way unless I ask. “Can I hug you? Can I put my hand on your shoulder? Would you be comfortable if I held your hand?”
And if I’m on the phone and they are talking to me, I ask, “Would you prefer I listen or would you like me to give you some advice? It’s up to you. Is it okay if I make a comment here?”
If they’re talking to you about their experience, you’re obviously a person they trust. This isn’t something that people are generally open about. And for that, you should feel great honor. I just want the situation to feel as safe and secure for everyone involved as possible. And to do that, they have to remain in control of the conversation.
It might feel like a lot of pressure to keep these three things in mind. Don’t be nervous. If you accidentally slip and start giving advice, just stop yourself and ask if that’s something they want. All of this is human nature. We want to help. We want to hug. We want to coddle. But the very best thing you could possibly do is giving them the control back.
Thank you so much for being a phenomenal and informed advocate, and helping this community rise up and overcome narcissism.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent, how to be a good advocate, how to become a good advocate, how to be a successful advocate, advocate, ally, advocating for survivors, abuse survivors, how to support abuse survivors, best ways to support abuse survivors,
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to the Bob Culture Podcast — Healing From Abuse Podcast Connection. I'm Marissa and I am the host of Healing From Emotional Abuse. And I'm here with Risa Pappas and Jen Casale, and Rob Crowther from the Bob Culture Podcast. So let's go around and introduce ourselves just so everyone knows who everyone's voice is.
Rob: Ladies first please.
Risa: Yeah, you said my name first. I'm going first. Risa Pappas. I'm a Wrestler, Pro Wrestling Commentator, ring announcer and all around non idiot.
Jen: I love it. I'm Jen Casale. I am over here at the CWC Academy. I am head of HR over here. And I have been in wrestling the Wrestling World for about, I guess, 5 Years now.
Rob: I am Rob Crowther, host of the Bob Culture Podcast, senior editor at the pop break calm and super major mark that Risa and Jen are probably very sick of
Risa: Impossible.
Marissa: I was going to say, and Marissa. Just kidding.
Rob: No, just yeah. You're mostly sick of me.
Marissa: That's not true. So I'm actually really intrigued, Risa and Jen brought up an interesting point to Rob and I one day about custom wrestling matches — to which I have never heard of, but apparently is really big in the wrestling scene. So we're going to talk about that, and how that can lead to sexual assault and sexualization of female wrestlers. So I would love if Risa or Jen would start us off because I don't even know where to start here.
Risa: Well, Jen, I think I think you have some kind of insights into maybe the somewhat history of it. And so far as we're aware.
Jen: Yes, but I kind of wanted to get just, you know, a little bit of your viewpoint on it. Because customs is something that is, it's a hush subject, it's something that like no one wants to talk about, that no one kind of knows about. And as I was saying, kind of earlier that you can do a search for custom wrestling matches on the internet, and nothing comes up. So it's something that is not really talked about until you either get into the Wrestling World. And, you know, someone approaches you and says, you know, as I know, it happened to you Risa. It was like, hey, do you want to do customers wrestling? And yeah, you're like, Well, I don't even know what that is? All right.
Risa: Yeah, I can I can talk to about that experience. Maybe by way of introduction, because I was I was initially clueless, as I'm sure a significant portion of your audience would be. So I was in a locker room, I was approached by somebody who gave me a handout. And they said, do you know how to take bumps? And I said, Yeah, sure. And for the uninitiated, taking a bump just means, Can you fall down in the ring without hurting yourself and make it look like someone hit you? So I said, yeah. And I kind of made the assumption that they were asking because they wanted to maybe put it in some kind of a storyline. So I was ring announcing, so I thought maybe they were going to be an ultra-bad guy. And knock me out as the ring announcer which is kind of a no-no. Only really awful bad guys do that in wrestling, because normally, you know, referees and ring announcers, we're kind of off limits. So that's what I assumed they were asking for. And then they handed me this piece of paper. And they said, No-no, this is for customs. And they gave me a handout. And it basically just had a bunch of categories of like, things that I would consent to do in a wrestling match on camera. And I did I still kind of didn't understand. So they finally said, like customs and I was like, Oh, and I immediately became very defensive and withdrawn, and much skeeved out. And I just said, Oh, no-no thank you, not interested. And prior to that, my only knowledge of customs was like, basically, you know, the rumor mill that is all professional wrestling, indie wrestling. It's very, it's very chatty. It's very like caddy for being male dominated. It's very much like everybody talking smack on everybody else. I heard so and so does customs on like, well, I don't know what that means. Like custom matches. Custom matches being things that people are paying money for, and therefore dictating what goes on in those matches and they're not for anybody else. They're just for the person who pays for them. And I would say, I leave it up to your imagination, because that's really essentially what it means. It can be completely innocuous, it can be just like, Hey, I really want to see these two people specifically have a match, and I'm gonna, I'm willing to pay to have to be the only person who has that match. Or it can, you know, it can range from relatively innocuous to basically full on pornography. I've only ever been approached about this one time. That was it. And I said no. And it was never brought up again. But that's, basically my personal experience, only. And I very much assume that as a non-wrestler, I'm not the general person who's being asked that. So Jen can probably speak to it from a wrestler’s perspective, because they're much more the ones who are being asked to do these custom matches.
Jen: Yes, and I think, you know, the one thing about it, that is a little bit, you know, it's a little bit strange. Especially, there's so much more nuance to this, like right now, especially with the COVID-era that we are now in, because there is a lot more stuff that's just going directly to tape because we can't have audiences. So now what customs wrestling is, is almost like a whole lot wider, because there is a lot more. There's like actual custom wrestling matches kind of wrestling going on. That is completely innocuous. And even in the customs world, you have that it does range everywhere from you know, where most of the time, even in the matches that are very, very oddly specific, like, let's say, Oh, I want to you know, it's a match full of pile drivers. And the girls will still just wear, they'll wear a lot more than they would wear their gear. They'll wear you know, sweatpants and a T-shirt. It's a really weird, weird kind of world. But to me, it was very fascinating. And I kind of wanted to understand a little bit better how it got to be that way. So, I kind of looked into the history a little bit, and I wanted to kind of take like a bird’s-eye view of wrestling. And I looked a little bit more specifically on the women's wrestling side. However, I think it's really important to note that the business for men's custom wrestling match is just as strong as it is for women. So there is no, you know, beating around the bush that this is, you know, just something that is a women's thing, I can only bring you, a woman's direct perspective of it, because that's what I am. Um, but so I really looked back into, you know, you look all the way back into the golden era of wrestling, which is like 80 years ago, at this point. You have people like Mildred Burke and May Western in the 40s, and the 50s. They even challenged men at that time, which was like really crazy and different for the society that they were that we were living in, which was very kind of stringent at that time. But then I think a lot of people have heard all of the stories about Mola to who has kind of gotten a much more of a bad rep in the more recent years. Where they say that she was sending people out to have private matches at people's houses and things like that. Um, and then that was going on back then. I wasn't there. So I can't say if it was or not. Like I said, those are certainly some of the stories that you hear and that you see in print. But it was also I think, part of the industry certainly at that point, especially with Mullah and how lady thought kind of made in wrestling at that time. Then you move into like the 60s in the 70s. And in the 70s. They were trying to kind of save the magazines because the business were all the magazines were dying. So in 73 Stan Weston, he had the sports review wrestling magazine that was like on the brink of collapsing. So he started this thing called apartment wrestling, which was featured in his magazine and it was women and scantily clad, or they were in there, um, they were in lingerie, and they were wrestling. And of course this sold like hotcakes. Um, so I think that when I'm looking at this, I'm like, Okay, this seems like something that's very close to what, you know why people would want customs because it's in an apartment. It's close to your house. It's you know, that's like a personal thing that you just have. And so in that way that that's where I'm like, I'm I kind of see this in that. And the ironic thing is that for WWF at the time, it was Vince Sr. was in charge. And He did not like this He was trying to cut ties with the magazine. Because he thought that it was just, you know, he thought that it was smut and smut and whatever. And didn't want anything to do with it. Um, but then we move on to looking at WWF into WWE going into you looking like the Attitude Era and the Aggression Era. So from like, 90s to 2000s, where it was very much adult entertainment on regular TV. Bra and Panty matches were standard fare. So this was in everyone's living room. And, you know, not just in wrestling, but like Jerry Springer was very popular, and shows that nature. So I think, when you come into this viewpoint of like, Oh my God, this, this is like very sexual and crazy. Like, why would somebody be doing this and wrestling today, this is like, totally out of whack? Well, if you look back some years, this was just like, totally normal on your TV, a couple of, you know, regular TV a couple of nights a week. And things didn't really change until it went very family, you know, things started to get more TV-PG. And you know, of course, we always refer back to WWE, because they’re, especially at that time, there was really no competition. And it wasn't until I think they went PG in 2008 or 2009. Um, and then things started to like, settle down, there's less blood people got some more clothes on. Nobody's like ripping somebody else's clothes off into their underwear or having a mud wrestling match anymore. Things are starting to settle down a little bit. And then, you know, we didn't have the Women's Revolution until 2015. So if we're looking back in something that has an 80 year 100 year history, to only go back five years to when things got to where they are right now, it's hard for a lot of younger people to see that like things weren't always the way that they are right now. So I think something like customs can look very shocking, when really, I think a lot of customs, you know, that going on is very similar to, you know, regular wrestling that you saw on your TV, you know, 10-15 years ago. Which is not to be like hey, that's great. It definitely not the kind of wrestling that you know, is for everybody. But it was for some people and some people still want to see that so there's definitely a market for it. And like I said, I you know, I'm looking at it from the women's perspective, but from the male perspective, like I said, that market is really big and I think the problem with why it continues to be around, and really continues to be a thing, is that there is a lot more money in it for a lot of wrestlers than there is for them to go and work a regular indie show. And I think that's like the big kind of crux of the issue to me.
Rob: That's very interesting. So I'll play the dummy because again this is a lot of this is very news to me / devil’s advocate. I'll come at you guys this way. I'm trying to find the line here because when I hear about like even I feel like the word customs right now like it like it's just bad like negative all the way through and through but Risa mentioned like hey you know sometimes there is a story or there's you know some match that people want to see like for legit like storyline reasons. Jen, no stranger to being in a faction what happens to factions again this is purely storyline, what happens to factions they break up or someone turns or you know, that Seth Rollins chair shot from behind. And then you know, you want to see those former tag partners face each other. And Jen, you also brought up we're living in this 2020 COVID world right now where Hey, let's face it, the indie you know, it's hard to do indie shows, we're lucky to have these driving shows that we've had, we're lucky to have these bring your own chair shows. I'm so thankful that I've been going to these shows, I really need her I know, and I’m super appreciative to the indies. That has just been so great to me. But my question for you guys is, is it all bad? Where's the line? You know, you know, obviously, like the stuff you guys mentioned about it getting very weird and perverted. You know, obviously, that's a no-no. We've interviewed people on the show. No, I'm not name dropping right now. But we've heard some really weird things that they get in their DMs some very, like strange stuff. So where's the line? From someone who's in the business right now that is trying to put food on the table and have like, face a former tag partner or face a former faction member? And then, you know, obviously, this very darkweb kind of stuff that you mentioned, like, where’s the line?
Risa: The line is at the comfort level of every individual performer, but unfortunately, that line is in a different place for everybody. And so, it's infinitely complicated because there are infinite amounts of wrestling personalities out there, and some of them totally fine with sex work. Some of them like me. I was very bothered that I had even been approached for that. I was very offended and immediately incredibly uncomfortable. And if it hadn't have been a woman that was asking me, if it had been a man, that approached me, I would have knocked him the fuck out. And I'm not, you know, trying to be badass or anything like that would have been my reaction because like how dare you? Because it was a woman I was just immediately uncomfortable. Because to me being approached by a woman is basically a woman being like, Hey get in on this, and I’m vouching for this. And even if that's the case, and I'm sure I'm really honestly sure that there is plenty of custom stuff that is done in an environment where it's actually safe. And in a place where you don't necessarily have to ever speak or be in contact with the person who's asking for it. Like you can, put all of those like checkpoints in. But for my personal comfort level, any approaches too much, because to me, that's not what I'm here for. I'm here for wrestling. What customs is, to a large extent is sex work. That's not what I'm here for. So some people are totally fine with that. And it makes a ton of money makes. It a ton more money than any wrestler is ever going to get. Hotdogs and handshakes is a used to be at least a pretty frequent payment. But it's very difficult to say where that line is. And it's I think I was kind of bothered by how normalized it was being kind of a person who hadn't been involved for a very long time. Like there are people who've been in the business for years. And like, to your point, Rob, you'll hear you know, the people that you're interviewing will tell you like the things that come into my inbox; the things that people request of me. And to them. I don't think that that's not the mentality, they're just like, I'm gonna shoot my shot and see what happens. I'm gonna just ask, and maybe they'll say yes. And that's as far as they'll think about it. Because to what to Jen's point, a lot of these people tend to be tend to be older, because if you're young, you probably don't have the money to be making this ask. So it tends to be, you know, a slightly older crowd that watched wrestling for years and years when it was Bra and Panty matches. So now they're not seeing it anymore. And they're like, Well, why can I see the Bra and Panty stuff anymore? And so they're like, well, I'm gonna ask, because the older you get, the bolder, you get. And so they're like, well, I'm not gonna not ask, because that's what I want. But they're not thinking about the implication of what asking, even does. I mean, I'm in my 30s. I was, I was not cool. Very not cool with being asked. But I'm okay. Like, it's not remotely the worst thing that's ever happened to me. But imagine if you're, like, 17-18 years old, and you're going to wrestling school, and this is your whole world. And then somebody asks you that, and tries to, make it seem like, it's no big deal. That would that would have rocked my world as an 18 year old. And so, you know, a lot of this talent really, really young.
Jen: Yeah, I think that's a great point, um, especially for the young people. And the new people in the business is that, like, we're seeing. This is such a sort of, and I've never had anybody talk about it, or approach it in the business in a way where it was like, undercover or trying to get anybody to do something that they didn't want to do. And I think, in a lot of ways, it's, it is wonderful that it is at your own personal discretion. That's the great thing about things being, you know, an independent contractor is that, you know, if you're like, hey, that's not my jam, then you don't have to do that. But I think money is very alluring to people. And I think also, like, you're saying, this is an environment where things are your whole world. So, it can often you know, and they conversations that people talk about getting into things that that are specifically sex work, is that sometimes that can be a very slippery slope. And before you know it, you know what, you know, what are you doing for what? But I don't want to, you know, say that, like all customs of sex work, because I think there are those things that are very innocuous and are fine. But there's not really like, you know, like you're saying, like, just as having this conversation is going to shed a lot of light on this subject for a lot of people. And I think we all just need to be focused on taking care of each other because that's best and the right thing to do. So I think things need to be honest, and I think those conversations need to be like really clear with people that are new and coming into the business.
Risa: Yeah, I don't think it's like a dirty little secret or anything. Everybody is so used to it. Everybody is so jaded about it. People are being like, there's people who have told me that they get people who message them and it starts out just like, “I'm really a big fan." It starts out really innocuous. And then it ends up being like cyber-wrestling, which is apparently a thing that they're like, “Oh, yeah, put me in a chokehold baby.” And it's like, Oh, God, get the fuck out of here. Come on. Sexting, basically. But it's like wrestle sexting. But it's, I don't know it. It's such a broad spectrum. And it's definitely not all sex work. A lot of it is just like, hey, especially, you know, Jen was talking earlier, like, we're in a COVID time right now, there's not a ton of actual shows running. So if I'm a person with a couple 100 extra bucks, and it's just like, hey, if you two are comfortable getting into a room with each other, I would love to pay you just to see a match, because there's just, I mean, if you've been watching, WWE lately is not so great. The quality, the quality of what we're left with is not super great, right now, unless you get to go out to an actual show. In which case, you know, performers like Jen are working their asses off because they know, like, Hey, we might be the only wrestling for a month. So I'm gonna make it count. You just you just really want to be there and you really want to be involved. But it can really be a slippery slope kind of situation. And people don't know who they're asking when they're asking these things. They don't know the trauma that people might have had. And unfortunately, a lot of, you know, girls experience, you know, some kind of trauma in their life. And being asked and being put into that position or being, I don't think anybody's I really don't think anybody's being coerced by anyone in the industry. But if your inbox is constantly filling up with guys saying disgusting stuff to you, oh, I'm going to pay you for this, I'm going to pay for that. Like, that's gotta affect you. You know, like, that's got to, you know, mess you up at least a little bit.
Jen: So, and then there, I think because I definitely had my fair share of those inboxes people, and also, you know, for big cosplay, too, that was definitely a big thing. And, you know, people are kind of, there's people that are willing to do anything for money and people that are willing to pay you for anything. And I hate to say something like that. That’s the way the world goes round, but sometimes unfortunately, it is. Um, but I think, my thing that I think is that we have this kind of opportunity, right now with the COVID era, to, you know, to turn this into a great thing. I think we can really turn it into, like we're saying, there is stuff going on out there we have, We Want Wrestling is something that I'm involved in. Qhich is a taping that goes on and beyond used to do tapings that are similar to this. And now they're a nice healthy company. Um, but you know, there's we have tapings of matches that are organized by one of our trainers here. And then they're put on Patreon for people to subscribe to, but there are different levels of that too, whereas like you can if you know, if you're one of the top tiers of subscribers, you can write in and request a match. So that is really, you know, that is a custom match at that point. But what we're doing is organized and it's being, you know, overseen by someone who is, you know, a trainer here with us. So we know that we're in that safe space.
Risa: And by the way, it's gotten the possibility of doing this kind of stuff has only gotten safer over time. There's like an old adage that like the porn industry and like the sex work industry tends to be ahead of the curve on technology and whatever. I mean, now, every time I'm on Facebook, and I'm looking at wrestlers, profiles and stuff, there's like now there's OnlyFans accounts popping up. And what's there's another one too I can't remember the name of it, but there's like, two main ones now where people can just, there's like literally platforms now for transactions that used to be done in very underhanded and confusing and inappropriate ways. Now there's literally platforms for it. So by talking about it, I hope that it can be something… it just was one of the many things that the culture of silence in wrestling was covering up. And to Jen's point, this could be a healthy thing. This could be a good thing this could be this could actually be okay, as long as we're not like covering it up anymore, so that people are only finding out about it when they're being taken by surprise like me. Or when people start in boxing me and making really disgusting requests and stuff. Like that's not the way. It was like You know, when your parents sit you down and give you the talk you want, you want their parents to sit you down and give you the talk, you don't want to find out a horrible way in school. You know, and I mean, it's, I would rather us be kind of bringing it out in the open and having a healthy discussion of it and saying, like, Look, this is what it, this is what it can unfortunately be. But on the plus side, this is something that if you feel empowered to do it, and you feel well adjusted to do it, and you have very clear lines of your own, in which you're in control, you can do whatever it is that you want. But not being exposed to it in the right way can be traumatizing, whereas being open and honest about it. And being more pragmatic about it can actually be beneficial.
Rob: Absolutely. Real quick. So I'm thinking about this and to Jen's point, again, as I found out many times my life, very ignorant. But I you know, when you when we talk about these, these matches, where it's, you know, we can have one person versus the other person, or we can make these matches, you mentioned Patreon. You mentioned, we want wrestling, I think I saw recent I think it was we were wrestling, I saw a matchup that I was like, oh, cool, like these guys are finally, like fighting. That's really cool. And in this, like, we keep saying in this 2020-era, where we don't really have live events, we don't have as much wrestling. Luckily, here in New Jersey, I've been going to like a show every weekend, you know, safely of course. But I've been very fortunate. I've seen some really cool things and had some cool opportunities. But I think also the way that I looked at it, when we started on this topic was like, “Hey, this is a way for fans to get the pencil.” I've rarely had the opportunity to get the pencil. I know a lot of indie wrestlers, like want to get the pencil, you know, for their, for their character for their career, all that kind of stuff. We all do. So that's the way I've always looked at it. Um, so you guys kind of mentioned this, you know, I asked where the line was, but what is the healthy way to do this? Because like, I feel like now this word has like such a negative connotation. Like, we do have Patreon we do have We Want Wrestling, like what about like, just like the fans that just like wanna watch like, two guys fight or two chicks fight or guy fight a chick or whatever it is storyline wise?
Jen: It's hard to say because it was it we don't have, like, we don't have a ton of things that are structured, and you kind of don't know what is what, at this point. And you also don't know the quality of what you're getting, unless you have, you know, like a preview of it. So you have something where you're like, hey, go watch, this is what you know, this is whatever it is, and companies stuff, like, you know, go take a look at it. And then you're like, oh, okay, I can see that this is wrestling. Or okay, I see that this is two chicks rolling around in their underwear or two dudes that are sitting in holds for an uncomfortably long time. That's really, a good way to identify it. So I think we're really right now we're on the cusp of this just starting to happen, where people and companies are kind of getting the spark, and the idea to go out there and do this and like an awesome way. To go out and do this and make it good. And there's, you know, there's also like the rise of, you know, I'm obviously very passionate about theatrical matches. And that's something that's happening. There is one of the companies that does this, I think they're called Philly Street Fights. They're on YouTube, and they do some theatrical matches that are kind of fun. There's lots of theirs, I think opportunities for things to be done really, really well, kind of using the same format and using the same platform. I don't think that it's ever going to go away. That people are going to, you know, want things for their own gratification, whether it be like, you know, very outwardly sexual, or if it's just a matter of like, a weird control thing. Like a kink. Yeah, like, that's always gonna be there. And I don't think that, you know, I don't think that our action should be to, like, Oh, God, we got to stamp this out, because I don't necessarily, I haven't had the experience where I've known where the it's been really hurting anybody. But I think like I said, open honest, conversation is always the best way to kind of, like, get stuff on the table and just make people aware of like, Hey, this is a thing, you know, be aware of it, watch out for yourself. Watch out for each other.
Risa: Right. We kind of have as much as COVID blows, obviously. We kind of are now in a in an interesting and unique place where all the stuff that you always wished you could do, but you couldn't necessarily do it in one match in part of a nine match card, where specific beats have to be hit at specific times. And specific storylines have to happen. I mean, if you strip all of that stuff away, and you go I just really want to do a match where this happens. Like to Jen's point about theatrical matches and stuff like you can you can actually do that now and just do it as a one off. So I think if we kind of start looking at wrestling a little bit more broad-mindedly, where we're not thinking about it in the traditional, you know, there's going to be a nine match card, and there's going to be an intermission in the middle. If we kind of rip away that structure and just go okay, but what do we actually want to do? Well, what do we really just want to do if we didn't have any of those construction. Like, you have the potential for some really cool stuff. And you know, what? As much people who are, "In the business,” love to talk crap about people who are not in the business. Oh, they're just a fan. Oh, they're just a fan. I've never subscribed to that. I think it's elitist bullshit. Because you know, what, everybody who's in the business started as a fan. So to talk shit on people who are just trying to be where you are, and they are currently where you were, that's kind of I always found that to be mean-spirited and shitty. So I think, yeah, the fans, right. And the fans are now in a position where you know, you could be taking that money and go, I'm a huge fan of a Mother Endless, I'm going to give her money to do whatever she wants. I just want to be able to let her do it. I'm gonna fund her Patreon. And make sure she can just put on whatever match because I love her. And I think she's so cool. I don't care what she puts together, because I know it's going to be awesome. Like, we're now in that kind of era where we can we have that flexibility right now, because there are so many shows not running, which is the potential for that is really amazing.
Jen: Yeah, amazing. That's a good point. Like there is nothing, and I say this every time I have put a team together in business and lead a group of people in a business, is that there is no business without the customer. And that's what fans are. The fans are the customers. So there wouldn't be as much as people love wrestling. There wouldn't be any wrestling if there wasn't any fans. And now there's just needs to be that kind of different way to reach the fan. And I think those platforms are there. And it's just kind of like the customers is almost kind of paved the way for this really cool thing that I think is we're you know, is going to be the dawn of kind of the new thing in wrestling.
Marissa: How do you think it would affect the wrestling community and the fans and the wrestlers in the industry, If there was like a strict no sexual objectification policy, or some sort of some sort of, I don't know, way to implement the lack of sexualizing people and put it into practice? Do you think that that would affect the industry?
Risa: Well, I don't think that's honestly possible, because the unfortunate flip-side of there's no rules, and we're now in the Wild, Wild West of wrestling, where we can all just propose whatever we want. And if we have the money, we can do it. Unfortunately, that leaves the door wide open for people to just continue to inbox you crazy shit. When we talk about all the matches that we could potentially be doing without the constrictions of doing it for a specific Wrestling Federation. Like that's the really good freedom. The adverse freedom is people with these new platforms, with people having Patreon and OnlyFans accounts, and you know, cameos, and all this kind of stuff, is that people now feel more empowered than ever to make really inappropriate asks. And so I don't know that there's a way that you can just cut that out. I think realistically, the only thing to do is to try to change wrestling culture from the inside, to not put up with that kind of shit as much anymore. And to kind of try to be more protective of each other because you're never going to have fans stop saying disgusting stuff to you. It's just unrealistic to try to control fans. But in terms of actual wrestling, like any organization, the change kind of comes from the top, we really kind of need… You know, if WWE wants to continue to be top dog in the Wrestling World, they really got to get their shit together and start really modeling the behavior. Like it or not, they're old and they're dinosaur-ic, and a lot of people have a problem with them. And AWS, the future. But WWE is still on top, and that's the reality for as long as it is. So until it stops being the reality. They are the standard bearers. So if they're not acting, right, which they're not right now; if they're not acting, right, I cannot foresee everybody else suddenly getting their shit together. Maybe on an individual Federation level you'll have, you know, like, you know, Titan Championship Wrestling. They're trying their hardest with the Goddesses Of War. They're trying really hard to be above board. They have improvements that they could always be making. You know, any smart Federation will be aware of that and will be constantly working on, but they're trying as hard as they can to make sure that they're creating a safe environment for the talent. On an individual Federation level, that's great. But I can't assume that everybody is going to take that accountability on to themselves without being prompted in really unfortunate ways. Such as what happened with the, you know, SpeakOut, #speakingout. So I think a lot of it is, we need to, you know, I've never not been vocal, but, you know, remain, you know, people like Jen and I need to remain vocal about these things, try to be action oriented. Try to be solutions oriented, and make people feel like, you know, this is not the hardest thing in the world to do, because it's not. But we need, WWE and AEW, and Impact. I mean, they're the ones on TV, so as long as they're the ones on TV with big multimillion dollar contracts, and whatever they're going to be looked to. So it's a, you know, like any organization trying to make cultural changes, it's modeling from the top and grassroots work from the bottom, and hopefully it meets together and then you have a better culture. A more inclusive culture.
Jen: It's weird, because there is definitely, like a kind of, like, an unfair standard and stigma that happens with the customs where, you know, I had people say, Well, don't do customs, you should never do customs, you know, it's not good for your reputation in wrestling. And then the same person turns on the TV and is looking at, you know, Charlotte Blair and talking about, you know, like, how, you know, expletive, expletive. I just like to get in there. You know, so I think that people just, you know, and in the same breath will like, sexualize somebody. But at the same time, condemn somebody for kind of being… there's a disconnect. Yes. That's like, I was like that when I had that experience when that happened. And so and somebody was like, No, no, no, don't do customs. And then at the same time, was watching, you know, WWE and sexualizing somebody. I was like, Man, this is this is just what this shit is.
Risa: And some further record some a lot. A lot of people have done customs work. Your favorite wrestlers have probably done customs work. That doesn't mean that they've gone full on pornographic. But I can nearly guarantee you that the people that you idolize your top 10 people, probably at least two of them have done some kind of customs work. Seth Rollins has done customs work. You can find it, it's on YouTube. Okay, it's there. I'm not giving anything away, you can look them up and see pictures of his dick too. I mean, it's just out there. He's okay with it. At this point, he makes millions of dollars, he's fine. But that's what it's like when he was younger. And when he was hungry, and when he wasn't signed yet. And he was just a semi-popular indie guy, that's when that's when they're hitting your inbox the hardest. Is when you're a rising star. And for him, he didn't do anything gross. It was just a really awkward looking match with very inappropriate ring gear. That's all it was. Um, but that was, you know, that was his decision. He was very young, maybe he would say now that he was too young to have made that decision. Only by being really open about this and bringing it up and kind of having these sort of conversations with these younger talent, that's the only way that they're going to come out of it unscathed or not confused or not traumatized. I mean, if you're getting asked to do weird stuff, and you say yes to one thing, but you're young and impressionable, then the one thing can quickly become Yeah, but would you also do this? Yeah, I mean, the possibility for escalation is high, the younger you are and the more vulnerable you are. So there's nothing at all wrong with sex work. There's nothing wrong with it at all. It's a very honest way to make a living. But the point is, how you are introduced to sex work has a lot to do with whether or not sex work is good for you specifically. And so that line is only something that only you can determine as an individual. And that's something that only you can determine, when you're in a place where you feel like you're not being coerced, or hassled, or, you know, pushed into it in any way. So, only by being very open and honest about it as a culture, are we going to be able to equip these young wrestlers to be able to handle it when they ask does come. Because it's going to come.
Marissa: So what gets me, and I agree with you on everything that you've I mean, sex work is very honest. You know, you, your hearts literally on your sleeve. But, you know, I guess my concern is that the people who are so young and so new and so hungry, will be lured in by the money. So I guess, like you said, it's about setting that boundary. How do we teach the newbies the youngins, the people who are going to be approached and will most likely not be equipped with the strength and boldness to be like, hell No, that's not my thing. You know, how do we equip them with those boundaries, setting confidence tools?
Rob: Literally the same brain Marissa. Literally same question.
Jen: I think that goes back to our education and something that when I talk to young people, old people, and old people about sexual harassment, one of the things that I always talk about is setting boundaries. And how to do that with someone in a way that's like clear cut, and dry. And just like straight across. Sorry, there's a loud car going by. My apologies. But yeah, so setting, people need to know how to set their boundaries in wrestling. And that's not just a conversation in wrestling notes about something like customs, but it's a lot of times about something like safety, too. So it's been a very important conversation that needs to be had with wrestlers is that how do you tell people that you're not comfortable taking a move, because you don't want to look like you're not the cool guy by not taking their big move. But if you're not sure that you can take that safely, you need to be able to have that conversation with them. And you need to have that confidence to set your boundaries, or you may end up very severely injured. So in exactly that same way, you're going to have that same talk about something that you wouldn't be comfortable doing. And that's the same thing with angles too. Because a lot of times, you might get put in an angle in a regular show that you might not be comfortable in it, whether it be a sexual thing, a political thing or anything else. It's really important. Because what we do in wrestling is entertainment. Things can be so up in the air, and they can be so different than things that you would encounter in a school environment or business environment. So, just teaching people how to have those conversations. And one of those being comfortable being uncomfortable things and learning how to say no and a polite way that sometimes you're not like hell no, oh my god, why would you want me to do that? That's disgusting. Or just like, Hey, you know, that's not really for me. Um, but it's about finding, I like to teach people how to find information, how to ask open ended questions of other people. So if somebody approaches you, like, Risa had that experience. When somebody approaches you like that how to ask, what is this? Because it isn't, it wasn't very clear, until you looked at the paper and saw all those things. But how to ask those open ended questions of people when they are approaching you with things so you can find out exactly what you're getting into there.
Risa: I think it needs to be taught in the wrestling schools, honestly. I think that that needs to be part of the spiel of when you're a new student, or whatever. And your training, because just in the same way that any good wrestling school will prepare you about how to network and how to put yourself out there as a performer and make connections. Okay, but what are the implications of making those connections. Not all of those connections are going to, you know, not all of those encounters are going to go the way that you want them to go. And the more popular you get, the more unfortunately, in demand, you're going to be in ways that you did not anticipate. So I think, yeah, I keep coming back to it. But in all ways, I would say this to fans, as well as to fellow performers. It's just be considerate and be kind and don't assume that you know anything about what the person that you're asking or talking to is going through. And can you can you be helpful to them instead of harmful to them at any given time. Because a lot of it, fans just really want to connect with the performers that they love. And they're not necessarily going at it in a in a way that they think that they're being bad. Because why would they want to do that they wouldn't want to hurt the person that they care about and they look up to and whatever. They wouldn't want to hurt that person's feelings. They're not always aware it disconnect sometimes. Rob, did you hear about the whole thing with Sonia Deville how a fan broke into her apartment and tried to kidnap her, like last week?
Rob: Yeah, I saw the thing and I'm sitting there I read the story. I'm like, Oh, she could she could handle it. She's touchy. But then I saw like he had weaponry and all this stuff. And it's very crazy and crossing the line. And obviously, you know, thought, you know, thoughts are with Sonia and I think Mandy was there at the time, as well, or roommates or nieces and nephews involved as well.
Risa: Yes, somebody was there and they and they peaced out in the car and called the cops. But that's how you can tell that he was not in his right mind. He was still there by the time the cops showed up. He didn't even have the mental wherewithal to, like get out of there and not incriminate himself. He admitted to everything. He's just so deeply obsessed with her. And you know, these things that start out really innocent can turn really, really bad sometimes. So, you know, I will gladly tell someone who says things that are inappropriate to me to, you know, go screw or whatever. And there are varying degrees of niceness that I will deploy depending on how they come at me. But I don't know that I always am getting through. So I think a lot of this, female wrestlers and female talent are not nearly the only people being asked these kinds of things. I think that they probably get hit more often for these kinds of requests. But men, all male talent get approached about this kind of stuff eventually, as well. So it's men and women that are being asked, but the people asking overwhelmingly are men. And so I feel like male talent, who are looked up to a lot, like, you know, women shouldn't be the only ones having to field these kinds of requests, and like, figure out what to do about them. Like, we need, we need as many allies as possible. And it goes both ways as well. Like if you know, there are a couple of people, a couple of younger guys that I know who are in wrestling, and if they ever were uncomfortable, and they came to me, I would try my best to help them. And I would like to think that it goes both ways. But you know, we really have to look out for each other. And men, like if I'm on Facebook, and I'm being harassed, there are several male wrestlers that I feel like I can tag in and be like, this person's being really awful, can you like help me out here? And unfortunately, a lot of the times, you know, it takes one guy talking to another guy to be like, “Hey, bro, that's really not actually appropriate, you're really making that person uncomfortable.” They really kind of have to hear it from another guy a lot of the time. So Rob, we know that, that you're an ally, and I feel like I can tag you in if necessary on things. And I feel like you would, you know, you would have my back. And there needs to be more there need to be more people like that. And, you know, if you're a male ally, you know, be super vocal about it. Because we need to know where you are, when the chips are down or being like made to feel very uncomfortable or whatever, like, we're just looking for a friendly face. So more vocal about it, you can be in the more visual about it, you can be, that goes a long way.
Jen: Yeah, and one of the things that I tried to do is, also I tried to talk with the younger guys that are here. We do some logic experiments in you know, all share with them like too, you know, if it's not something that's like, too, super inappropriate. But like, hey, this is what was put into my inbox, or, you know, how would you field this, if this came to you? And then we have those open and honest conversations, because I think guys viewpoints from what I've experienced, and the feedback that I've gotten from a lot of the younger performers, is very different, I think, from the girls. And I think that just goes to, you know, kind of chauffeur society where a lot of the guys are like, Oh my god, yeah, I don't care do that for whatever amount of money. Like, that doesn't bother me at all. And then, you know, for me with a thing that I like to do with them is, you know, we talk about it like, Well, you know, let's think about how you would feel about this five years from now. How would you feel about this? If your mom saw it? How would your grandma feel about this? How would your father, your uncle or your teachers? What would they say if they saw this so that you cannot just get it's not just a condemnation of this is right, or this is wrong, but really helping people find out where their boundaries are and where their moral compass is on it. So it's not just a like, let me jump at this money kind of situation.
Risa: I watch a lot of really terrible movies like, you watch them because it's like, it's great, how bad they are, like, here's how not to make a movie. And I actually used to teach a film class where one of the classes was I would show a really terrible movie and then have the class discuss what about it made it not a good movie? And occasionally in those really awful movies, you see, like a girl with her tits out and I'm like, Man, bet she regrets that now. I bet she does. And it's those kinds of that's the kind of decision she's young and perky. And she was probably coerce. And now, you know, its 30 years later, and there's a VHS to digital transfer of her boobs, on the internet forever. Like, these are the kinds of things that people are being approached about at a very young age. And, you know, thank God that we have people like Jen, in the locker room and at the training school helping these people out and asking these kind of questions. but there needs to be a Jen in every locker room.
Marissa: A Jen and a Risa.
Risa: So yeah, we can't be in every locker room at one time. So we, we need, we need a lot of people to, to kind of step up and say that there'll be that person that they'll have those kinds of courageous conversations.
Marissa: That's awesome. I had something I wanted to say, and I don't remember what it was now. So sorry.
Risa: I know. I'm sorry. We're like throwing so much stuff at you guys. Rob. I did. I did want to bring something up to you, Rob. Because when we initially started having this conversation, I feel like you were kind of gob smacked that this was a thing that was happening. Like, did we ruin wrestling for you at all?
Rob: No, I mean, I mean, you hit it right on the head. I think both of my questions initially kind of summed it up. But it was like, oh, yeah, I want to see this guy fight. This guy. Like, that makes a lot of sense. You know, like, they used to tag together. Like, that's cool. It makes a lot of sense. It's 2020. We can't really have shown like putting food on people's table. Yeah, no problem. And then it got weird. I learned something today.
Marissa: So we need a Jen and Risa and every locker room, and we need more wrestling fans like Rob.
Risa: Yeah. In the crowds. Yeah, yes, definitely. I think if I could just make one plea to fans, if any fans are listening, please. Especially now in COVID times, like, please don't assume that you can just run up and give me a hug. Just because you spend, you know, hours like sifting through the photos I have on Facebook doesn't mean that I have any idea who you are.
Rob: I apologized for that, Risa.
Risa: Man, it's what I'm saying. Like there is there can really kind of be a disconnect between the dialogue you have in your head. But you know, unfortunately for guys, the way that that really that hyper, you know, obsession is sometimes it can kind of turn really weird and awkward and potentially very inappropriate. And in the case of the guy who's obsessed with Sonia Deville, potentially even violent. Whereas I think women just like write fanfiction. Like they're very much more chill about their obsessions. I think guys could kind of take a page out of their book in terms of fandom, like go on Tumblr and see what like, healthy and super obsessed fandom can look like. And you know, not be, you know, they can be as gross as they want to be because it's fiction. They're not you know, you don't these are not people who are like stalking their favorite wrestlers, and going into their house, and sitting in their house and waiting for the cops to show up
Marissa: Very aggressive side note, Tumblr is actually owned by Porn-hub. So, yeah, just read what you see on Porn-hub, on Tumblr.
Jen: And that was news to me. I learned something today, too.
Marissa: I’m a wealth of dumb knowledge.
Risa: It is. That is really interesting, though. Yeah, there was a big controversy about that, but I don't remember what specifically it was. I think it actually was like Tumblr and Porn-hub were like trying to do something that was actually kind of sex positive together. I don't remember. But I think we're in a place where like, Backpages was a relatively legitimate and, more or less, safe kind of way for sex work transactions to happen. And now that that's gone now we have, we are adapting so you know, if you want to engage in sex work and you are an adult and you are not operating out of a place of mental illness, and you're of sound mind and body, and you just want to show it off and flaunt it and make buku bucks doing it, you know, power to you. There's so many ways now it's actually pretty amazing. It's just, you know, have those honest discussions about it beforehand, and you know, educate yourself about it. Google has everything good and bad. So you can find out the pros and cons of just about anything. But being open and having honest discussions about it. Like you know, finding out about custom wrestling matches shouldn’t be just like a, you know, a whisper game that happens. It should be something that is talked about because you know, it would love for people to know that that's coming before that starts hitting their inbox. I would love for I would love for people to be aware that this is a thing. And that with fame no matter how minor, there comes inappropriateness. So I'm really thankful to both of you for agreeing to have us come on and speak about this.
Jen: Yes. I'm really glad that we have this conversation as well.
Marissa: Thank you guys so much for being here. I know I learned a ton. I can probably speak for Rob that he also learned a ton.
Rob: Accurate.
Marissa: And I think that talking about this stuff, like you said Risa, is really, really important because not only does it educate fans and people that are outside the Wrestling World, but it also educates the people that want to be in the Wrestling World. So thank you guys for being so open and honest. And thank you, Jen for working with people and teaching them about customs and setting boundaries. And thank you Risa for being such a prominent voice in the community. And thank you Rob for being an awesome super fan who just wants to innocently watch people wrestle because he enjoys it.
Rob: That's all I have, Marissa.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome to the Healing From Emotional Abuse - Bob Culture Podcast Connection, where we are going to talk about intimate partner violence and spousal abuse. Because it's such an important topic, and we never really hear about it. People, you know, are nervous to come forward because of judgment and a lot of other things. So, we really wanted to hit this topic, and make sure people know that they're not alone. And, of course, I need to introduce my phenomenal co-host, Rob from the Bob Culture Podcast. Welcome on, Rob.
Rob: Hey, Marissa, what's up? It's always a pleasure to team up with you and get some good work done, have some good conversations and hopefully make a lot of progress. Always an honor.
Marissa: So today, we have the beautiful, incredible Deborah McPhilemy. She's an award-winning author, personal development trainer, and an empowering speaker. She's the author of the Relationship Magnet: Emotional Intelligence in a Nutshell for Parents and Teachers. And the Bears of Blueberry Forest EQ series for kids. Deborah is passionate about helping people to get to know themselves, so they can be themselves. She believes that life is way too short to be anyone else than yourself. In her self empowerment club, the selfieschool.me, she helps people to find courage to develop their confidence, and to let go of the fear that holds them back from being themselves. When she's not writing or teaching, she can be found spending time with her family, or traveling the world with her best friend and husband, Paul. Thank you so much for coming on today, Deb. I'm so excited to chat with you today.
Deborah: You’re very welcome. Thanks for having me. It's amazing to be here.
Marissa: Well, thank you guys, both, for being here. I'm really honored that we get to do this panel-type discussion about spousal abuse and abuse, in general. Even though it's not a great topic to chat about, it's still very, very important. So, Deb, would you mind starting by telling us your story?
Deborah: Yeah, my telling my story these days feels like it really was a very different lifetime ago. But what happened with me is that I found myself in a cycle of abusive relationships. And I only really woke up to when it got to the fourth relationship. I will speak about three, but then remember that I forgot about the fourth one, because it was just something I blanked out of my mind. But I got married really, really young. I was 17 years old. I grew up in a very conservative home, a very religious home, and very naive. And the first time I had sex, I fell pregnant. And I didn't want to shame the family. So, you know, we decided to get married. My husband wasn't much older than me. He was 21 at the time. Decided to get married. And it was okay for about the first year. You know, it was first love. It was all excitements of things: new things, and new relationship, and baby, and all sorts of things. But for the first year of our marriage, we lived with my parents. And then when we moved out, my son was about a year old when the abuse started, we moved into our own apartment. And he'd been out drinking all day, watching cricket in the sun, and came back. And I was so shocked because it was just... It was so violent. And I think I must have said something to him that provoked the situation or that he didn't like. But he just, honestly it was just crazy. He started throwing things and bashing things. And fortunately, at that stage, he didn't actually hit me. But I got such a fright. And I immediately ran away, took the baby and went and stayed with my mom for a week. But then started thinking, “Oh, well, you know, maybe it was just because he was drunk. Maybe it was just that behaviour because of that.” And I went back to him, because I did love him. But then the abuse just started getting worse and worse and worse. And then it started becoming when he wasn't drinking, or what happened when he wasn't drinking, or it would happen first thing in the morning. You know, it was a case of anything which would spark him off; and I kept trying to find out if there was a trigger. Was it something I was doing wrong? Did I say something wrong? Do I not love him enough? Do I not? So, you know, I kept questioning myself because I kept thinking that it was something I was doing. I was the one that was provoking him or saying something that he didn't like. And this carried on for about five years. But then I had another daughter, another child. I had a little girl, little baby girl. And she must have been about four months old, or something. And we got to a situation, again, where his favourite thing to do was he would bash my head against the wall. Would always grab my head in the front and then bash it. And I got to the point where I'd had enough, because I'd left before and I came back. And I left before and I came back. And it was this whole cycle of leaving, coming back leaving, coming back. And, when, this particular day, I was in the kitchen, and he only came over two o'clock in the morning. When he’d made the date with me and said, “Well, you know, get ready or get somebody to look after the kids.” And he didn't come home. And eventually came home at two o'clock in the morning. And I was like, “Why? What did I do to deserve this?” Or “Why did he do that? Why would you make plans with me and not come back?” But that was the start of me realizing that I've got to the point of having enough. And we were standing in the kitchen, and I said, “Why on earth would you ask me out and then not come and fetch me?” And I remember saying to him, “You son of a bitch.” And he was so angry that he said “Leave my mother out of this!” And he bashed my head against the wall. But I remember trying to make my way to the bedroom and just seeing stars, and all. I was, you know, about to faint. And it was black. And I layed on the bed and I was like, “Oh my God, my head is pounding. I'm in so much pain, but I don't want to pass out because I've got two children in the house.” But what that did for me was, I was so angry that the next time I had to work, and I went to work, and I said, “That's it. I've had enough. I've had enough of this man beating my head against.” I've had enough of the accusations and the pain, and all of that. And then I started making arrangements to leave. But because of me trying to leave before, he would always threaten me. The time before that, that I wanted to leave, he said to me, “If you ever try and leave again with the children, I will kill you and the children.” So, there was always that threat hanging over my head. So, this time I got a hold of my dad and I said to him, “I have to leave. I can't do this anymore. I can't take this anymore.” So, we packed up the house, and we left while he was at work. And my dad installed burglar bars and gates on the doors and everything. So, we left, you know. And then obviously he found that we left and he came knocking on the door, but I was quite safe in my dad's home. So that was kind of the start. And then I waited, for about seven years, before I got married again, because I didn't want to make another mistake. And within a week or two realized that “Oh my gosh.” I was in an abusive, but a very emotionally, mentally, emotionally abusive relationship. There wasn't physical violence with him. But it was insane. The mind games, the financial abuse, the control. The “You can't wear that. You can't wear makeup. You can't hug your children. You can’t hug your brothers.” It was, it was just horrific. And that one ended, as well. My mom was diagnosed with cancer and she was dying very rapidly. And I said to him, you know, “I want to go and spend the night at the hospice with my mom. My dad was exhausted.” And he said, “Well, if you leave me to go and take care of your mom, then it's over.” And I said, “Well, then it's over.” I said, “This is my mom, and she’s about to die.” So that was the second one and then I got out of that one. Once again, left with nothing. My children and I drove away in our car without bedding, without clothing. Drove away from that situation. And then the third time: so there was one in between that a guy that I was engaged to, we didn't get married, got out of there. But then the third time, was when I really woke up to the pattern: that I was the common denominator. I just got married, again. And the reason that I kept getting married was because of my religious upbringing. You know, we were told, or brought up, that you don't have sex before marriage; you can't really have a good relationship unless you're married to the person; that you, know, God won't bless you unless you do it the proper way. So, there was just all that stuff going on, as well. So, I got married to this guy and he was annoyed because I wasn't giving him attention. My daughter had her friends over, and I was hanging out with the teenagers. And I walked into the bedroom, and he just lost his rag. And he had me up on the throttle of my, you know, my throat against the wall. And as he did that, my daughter walked in, and I saw her face. And I went, “I cannot believe I'm back here again.” And so, the next day he went to work, and my daughter and her friends and I, we all packed the house like crazy. Our clothes and stuff, once again in the car, ran away to safety. And my son, by then, was out of the house and grown up. So we went and stayed with him until we could find a place with just my daughter and I could stay. But it was that moment that made me realize that I was the one that kept getting back into these relationships over and over and over again, and attracting this very type of person into my life. And, by then, I was already an emotional intelligence trainer. So, it's not like I hadn't learned all the stuff. But I just hadn't discovered that my own trigger, my own lack of self worth, self esteem, and this belief I had about men and relationships was the reason that I kept inviting these people back into my life. So, I spent a whole weekend uncovering and debunking everything. Finding out why I believed the way I did. Where it came from. And it was only after I did that, that I broke the cycle. Got out of that relationship very quickly with an annulment, which is amazing. And then once again, you know, carried on with my life. And, I think it was 10 years after that situation, that I got married again. And I'm very, very happily married to the most wonderful, loving, compassionate, incredible human being that you could ever meet. So that's my story in a nutshell.
Rob: You make me believe in love again. That's amazing to hear. You've been through so much. And a couple of things here and there that you said that I could definitely relate to. I want to talk about, obviously, like you said that you're in these relationships; you think there's trust; you think they're, you know, like your ride-or-dies, as we say here. You know, best friends, you can trust people. And then you kind of see these red flags: for instance, people not coming home or the constant lies. Can you tell us, I mean, obviously, you've experienced it in so many different ways. Can you tell us about some of the early red flags that people can kind of look out for?
Deborah: I've got a whole page of it in my book, Relationship Magnet, about saying to people, you know, if you've got these red flags, because that's exactly it. You know, this thing about what we do when somebody pays us so much attention in a very short space of time. And they think you’re the best thing since sliced bread; they’re just amazing; they want to do everything for you; you’re incredible; they want to see you all the time; they want to do everything for you. They just put you on this massive, big pedestal. Now when you've got a low self esteem, you think this is amazing. “Oh my god, he thinks I'm so attractive. And I'm this and I'm that.” So, we kind of think that they besotted with us. But in my experience, in all these relationships, and all the research I did when I wrote the book, was that that is their way of getting you into their clutches very, very quickly. And making you fall for them fast and hard. So, when somebody makes such a big fuss of you, and then they want to move things too quickly in the relationship, that's always a red flag. Because if somebody believes that you are worth it, and you're worth waiting for, they're not going to pressurize you into something; they're not going to push you into it; they're not going to put a time limit on it. So that is always the biggest red flag that I always say to people: that is the one that you need to pay the most attention to very quickly.
Rob: Absolutely. Go ahead, Marissa, I'm sorry. No, I'm just sitting here nodding my head. I was like, I wish I met you 10 years ago, Deb. But go ahead.
Marissa: No, I was just going to comment, because I think that is such a profound realization. To be very honest, a lot of people don't see that. And I think that, you know, they integrate into our routines. And that's how they get us. They learn everything they need to know about us. So they can systematically, you know, insert themselves into our lives, and make it as if we can't have that routine or do anything in life without them. So, I think that was a really, really good point. Thank you for bringing that up.
Deborah: Yeah it is, you know, for them, it's all about mind games, as well. Because, you know, I remember with some situations they would hide the keys. And then they'd say, you'd say, but I said this. No, you didn't say that. And then they would play all these different games with you because it's a way of eradicating your self esteem. Just backing up on what you just said Marissa, where they make you believe that you can't do without them. And then things like. And then eventually all the things that they loved about you, they now can’t stand about you. And they'll make you look like the bad one. I remember my second husband, when he would… God, I mean, he didn't hit me. But the things he did. We were on our way; we worked together. And we were on our way to work one day in his van. And I was checking my messages on my cell phone, my mobile phone, and it was making like a clicking sound. And he said, “Can you not do that? Can you stop that?” And I said, “Well, I just quickly need to reply to this message.” The next thing, he pulled the car up, the van up, on the sidewalk, in the middle of a busy road; he opened the door; he leaned over me; opened the door, he lifted his legs, and he kicked me right out of the van onto the street. So absolute crazy things when we were in the car. He would start driving, if I didn't adhere to what he wanted me to do, or he didn't like something I said, he would drive like a maniac as if he was going to crash the car into something. And the more I would be “Please, can you slow down? I'm starting to feel scared.” Now, the more he would relish out of that experience, because he wants it to be in control. And then when he behaved like that, he would say to me, “If only you listened to me, Deborah. That would not have happened. If only you had done as I told you, that would not have happened.” And eventually your self esteem is so eroded, you lose so much confidence in yourself that you’re like, “Nobody's going to want me now. Nobody's going to love me. People are going to see how broken I am. Who's going to want somebody who's so broken?” So, it's part of their unconscious plan. I don't know if people do this consciously or not, because they are such broken people, but it's part of the plan to make you into something so worthless that you'll never want to leave them.
Rob: Absolutely. And you mentioned this a lot. And this is something I've learned from Marissa, a lot, is it's hard to understand when these things unfold. Like you really don't see them coming, you know. You trust somebody, you know. If something's going to happen, you know, you think it would be communication or conversation or anything like that. But you mentioned the word control a lot. And this is what Marissa has helped me understand. Can you talk to us a little bit about why people are the way they are? Why they try to manipulate these situations and literally control you?
Deborah: So, it always comes from a place of them not being in control of their own life. So, if you look at human behavior, and you go back to their childhood, you'll find that, because I did a whole section in my book about how people are made like that; how they’re created. Because it was very important for me to understand why people were like that. I mean, my whole thing is about human behavior. And so, for me, it was important, because also it was part of my journey of forgiving and not being angry and upset, and, you know, getting over the rage and all of that stuff. So, for me, I needed to know why they did it. So, basically, why people do it is that in their childhood, they get into situations where they have no control over their life. So, if you take a male versus a woman situation, like in mine, you'll also find that the person that hurt them the most is the person that they feel the most vulnerable with. So generally, if you look at relationships with men, it's often because they didn't have a good relationship with their mom. Or they might have had a good relationship with their mother, but then mom also had the power to hurt them. So, when they were possibly vulnerable, or when they controlled them, and they had no control of the situation. So, children generally then once you regain that control over their lives, when they've been out of control. So that's been what they grow up. So, when their wounds aren’t healed, they grow up that way. So, they have to exert their control over you, because that's the only way that they feel that they can get some control back over their own lives. And some power back in their own life. So, you'll find that most men who harm women are misogynists, and it's because of the wounds that they have picked up from a strong woman in their life as a child. Now, the opposite happens obviously with any sex: so whether it's male on male abuse, female on male. But it always comes to this stage. Or, should I say, it always comes from this area of lack within themselves. Where they don't have; there's a missing piece and they need to find it and they don't know how to find it. And therefore, you know, when you exert power over somebody else, if that's the only way you know, they feel like they’re somehow putting that missing link, gaping hole back into themselves. But it actually just makes it worse.
Rob: Wow. Deb, first of all, we usually save the promo for the end here. But where can we get this book? Because I'm picking it up.
Deborah: So, it's called the Relationship Magnet. And it's on sale through school.me. So, all my books and my programs and my courses are all on one platform, so you'd be able to get it there.
Rob: Got it.
Marissa: I'll post the link in the description for anybody else that wants it. I know I will also be picking up a copy of it. So, Deb, what did you do to help you heal from all of this? Because, I mean, the emotional wounds and the confidence blows, those are all things that stick. You know, I'm a big proponent that the physical abuse is awful. But the scars go away. The emotional abuse is what really sticks with you. So, what did you do to overcome all of that?
Deborah: Gosh, so much. It’s really, it's taken me a long, long time, even to the point that when Paul and I got married again, there was still stuff left over then that I had to deal with. But I can honestly say today that I'm completely and utterly whole. But when I started the very first thing I did was I joined the counseling group. And it was for divorced people, divorce care. And that's what actually led me to becoming a counselor. Because I waited seven years after my first marriage before, or after it ended, before I thought I needed to find some help. And I could see the repercussions in my children's lives. And, you know, my son had a lot of problems sleeping and fear and lack of confidence himself. And even though my daughter was really young, when I left. You could see, because there was still fighting going on even after the divorce for maintenance and support. And the control. Just him trying to control me and us in our lives still carried on for a very long time after the divorce. It was almost 18 years. So, there were a lot of things I had to do. I went for counseling. I've had hypnotherapy. I've used Emotional Freedom Technique. I've used the havening. I even, and I know this sounds really, really crazy, but, a couple of years ago in 2016, I still felt that I had a lot of fear. Because when I wrote my book, and I was very bold, I was the first person to talk out about it in South Africa. I was on TV. I was on the radio. I was just blasted everywhere in the press. And at the time, I thought well, this is amazing, because now other people are going to hear about this and don't have to be in their situation. And they can learn from what I went through to prevent that. And there was a huge response from women who emailed me and said, “You know what? Because of you and speaking out, it's given me permission to leave my situation.” But what happened was, my first husband got married again. And he got married to a very controlling, strong woman. And she realized that she had made a mistake. So, in order for her to look better and not look silly, because she married an abuser. She then took on the role. She carried on the abuse of the way he had left off. So, there was this incredible backlash and bullying. And she would pretend to be somebody else and make comments on my books. And it was just a nightmare. And what happened was, when I moved to England, it was just an ongoing thing. So, my husband, Paul, my husband, he was the one that actually stepped in. And it was the first time that, besides my brothers, that there was another man that said, “You know what? Enough is enough. Somebody needs to help you with the situation.” And he basically reached out to them. And he said to them, “I've got the money. I've got the resources. I've got the full force of the law. If you do not stop bullying my wife, I will bring all of this stuff against you. The force of the law.” But, basically, what I'm saying is, it was the first time that I felt like somebody had my back. And because somebody had my back, I felt like I was enabled to really heal from all of this stuff. But interestingly enough, I still felt very vulnerable. I couldn't put myself out there. I cleaned up everything on Google, every single radio station, TV station, websites. I cleaned it up completely. I changed to my new married surname. I made it as if I did not exist. It took me a year to get Google to remove every single thing that had been mentioned about me. And then for a couple of years, I just licked my wounds. And I was like, “I don't want to put myself out there. I'm too scared. I'm too scared of the backlash.” Because, also what happened when I was on radio in South Africa, a lot of people would phone in. A lot of them would be good. But then a lot of men would phone in and go, “I can see why your husband beat you. Because you've got no social skills.” So, you're always going to get these haters, right, that say these awful things. When I was in England, I licked my wounds for a few years. And then I just said, “You know what? I can't live my life in hiding, because I know what my purpose is. My purpose is, as a speaker, as a person who writes books and a person who teaches others. I have to take back control of my life. I've got to take the power back of my life. I can't just hide.” Because it made me feel depressed. Because I wasn't being myself. So, I kind of started a process of doing all that. As I said, the hypnotherapy. I’ve done Emotional Freedom Technique. I saw various counselors and therapists. I can't even remember all of them. But the biggest one for me was in 2016, I wanted to do something epic, just to get rid of the fear that I still had. And a friend of mine said to me, “Why don't you do fire walking?” And I was like, “What? Why would I want to do fire walking? Are you crazy?” But she kept on at me. And she kept saying, “I really feel you need to do this.” And I was like, “Okay, well, I'll do a little bit of research.” And I found this company that's about four hours drive away from me. And the minute I saw what they wrote, and I saw the video, something resonated with me. I saw the video and I just started crying. And I thought, “This is it. I have to do this.” And I went and spent a weekend, and it was actually a firewalking instructor training course. And Steve, who runs it, was the same guy, well, he studied with the same guy Tyler(?) that Tony Robbins studied with. And we did, I think it was in the second day, we did a trust fall where you stand on a platform that's four meters high. So, of course, you're five foot or six foot on top of it. That seems really, really high. So, you've got to fall backwards into these people's arms that catch you. And that is where my true healing started from. Because that is what helped me to realize that I could trust people again. I could trust men again. I could trust myself. And since then, I've gone back every year. I'm now a fire walking instructor trainer. But it was all about breaking all those things that have been said over my life. Rebuilding my self esteem. Comparing myself to other people and going, “Well, actually, that person is amazing. But I have the same quality. So, I should be pretty amazing, too.” So, it really has been a very long process, a very long journey. It's taken a lot of modalities. But I can honestly and truly say to you that, as I sit here before my laptop, that I'm completely and totally and utterly whole. And it was done through a lot of different ways. There wasn't just one way for me to do it.
Rob: Wow, that's, incredible. I'm writing down all this stuff. You're my new favorite person. But I did want to ask you this, like a lot of things that you said resonated with me. You know, obviously, when something terrible does happen, you know, someone that you think you can trust, obviously that trust goes away. You know, people lose that trust, that merit. You tend to lose your faith in people, in general. So, when you use that metaphor about the trust fall, like I've literally said, you know what? I've fallen on hard times, or I got, you know, blindsided by things in life. My friends, my support system, were literally there to catch me and pick me back up, like I'm living it. And for you to use that trust fall example was just, like, it really resonated with me. It's perfect. And when you started the interview, you said, it feels like a lifetime ago. And you know, some of this stuff you've kind of blanked out, can you tell us a little bit more about where you are right now and feeling whole? It gives me a lot of hope.
Deborah: Well, the one thing I discovered because, you know, when you start looking at why you've been abused, it's because of something that happened in your childhood. So, when I traced it all back. I've been bullied as a child at the age of nine, it started. But also my older brother, he hated me, but not intentionally. But when he was a little boy, you know, you had all the attention and the love. And then the girl came along and he felt that I stole the attention away from him. And him and I spoke about it the one day. I mean, now he is my absolute best friend. But as a kid growing up, he tried to kill me a couple of times. You know, strangled me, tried to stab me with the scissors. It was just crazy. So, it's almost like when something happens to you, when your essence is damaged at a really young age and you're not healed, or you haven't healed from that trauma, it then carries on and on and on and on. But I even discovered, in my journey, that it was further than that. It was quite a horrific situation because I had suppressed a lot of things. Because you do. You suppress it; you don't know what's going on. And I think your mind only allows you to remember things when you're ready to deal with it. And about four years ago, I think it was just before I did the firewalking thing, I was driving along the road one day, and I've always been very, very scared of pedophiles, and people doing that to my grandchildren. And I was very scared of that being done to my kids. I always used to overreact. And I was driving on the road, and I saw a man and his son. And once again, I got the sick feeling in my stomach. It was about a two, three-year-old. Sick feeling in my stomach. And I say to myself, “Why? Why do you have this reaction?” And then suddenly, I asked myself. I said, “What happened to you?” And as I said that all these memories came flooding up of me being molested as a three-year-old by a very close family member. And so, the whole pattern of my life had been one of abuse from the age of three. And as I said, when you carry that with you, and haven't healed from that trauma, that's why it's taken me such a long time. Because I've had to go back and face that, and face it head on and say. Fortunately, the person who did it is not dead. But that was the hardest thing for me because it was a grandparent. And I had to acknowledge and accept that this person who supposedly loved me had done that to me as a little three-year-old. So, now looking back at that, I can honestly say that, you know you are whole when you get to the point where you can think about them, and there's no emotional trigger. There's no button. There's no reaction. Because I can now look at his face in a photo and feel nothing. Because I realized that, obviously, you've been a very damaged person, and something must have happened to him. I have forgiven him. And I think that's always the hardest to do, when you are healing from abuse, is to forgive your perpetrator. But I think what makes it easier is when you look at them as an outsider, not what they did to you, but what must have happened to them. To perpetrate. What they did to you. And I think that is what helped me. So, yeah, I have completely forgiven. I don't feel any emotion anymore, whatsoever, when I think of anything that happens to me. But what is always good to remember, as well, that when you’re looking back, and you dealing with your trauma, and you're dealing with everything that's happened, is that whenever you think about an event and you still feel something, then there's still work to be done. Because you know you're completely healed when you can talk about your story without emotion. And you can look at your story as if it was somebody else's movie. It's not even you. That this is a movie or somebody else's life. And so that is my advice to you. Is that, you know, when you embark on this journey, it isn't easy. You've got to do the things that are going to make you feel safe, that are going to make you feel whole. The other thing that I did, and this is what I'm going to say to everybody listening, for God's sake, go and do a self-defense course. Because that was one of the first things I did, was I did a rape prevention self-defense course. Because it makes you feel empowered. It's the first step in getting your confidence back. It just makes you feel better, move better, walk better. Because you’re walking like a confident person. You don't look like a victim because you know, people can see us coming from a mile off when you’re broken. And when you've had abuse in your life before, or you have this invisible magnet inside you that attracts people to you, they can see it. So, if you've just come out of that situation, go and do a self-defense course so that you can work on your body language; and you can work on your body confidence; and you can feel stronger and more empowered in yourself. And then start your emotional journey. And I also just want to say this, is that a lot of people are very scared of their emotions. Your emotions are here to help you to have a better life. All those emotions are going to, you know, they're just like little warning signs that say to you, “You need to pay attention to this because I really want you to have an amazing life. And you're not going to have that amazing life until you take care of this pain.” And that's all emotions are: your emotions can't kill you. They're just there to help you to become the person you’re meant to be. And to help you to have the life you so badly want. And dream of.
Rob: Wow. Very, very well said. That's it for me. You hit everything on the head. A lot of the stuff you said resonated with me. Marissa, you got anything else before we get out of here?
Marissa: To be honest, no. Deb, I think that you are so inspirational. You said things that resonated with me, you know. And I felt like I was so far healed and so good, and then you say things. I'm just like, “Oh my god.” It made me think. So that's why I was so quiet. I was thinking and ruminating on some of the beautiful things you said. So, thank you so much for sharing all of your insight and your story and everything with us. I think that you're an incredible person and you're so, so strong.
Deborah: You're welcome. Thank you. And yeah, I always invite people that just reach out. You know, I also think sometimes we just need to reach out more and not be ashamed of what has happened to you. Because what has happened to you is just something that happened to you. That's not who you are. And so, it's important to reach out and ask for help. Because it's not your fault. Somebody else's bad behavior is not your fault. And it's not because of you. So, you can turn this around, you know. We've all got the power within us to turn it around, and have the lives that we want, and the relationships that we want. And to find love again, like I did.
Rob: That's awesome. I always do like little soundbites and write down little quotes from this. I have at least 15 from you. So, I love everything that you're saying, Deb. Thank you so much. And before we get out of here, we are about the shameless promo. Tell everyone where they can get your book again. Tell everyone where they can follow you on social media. All that good stuff.
Deborah: So social media: If you just put in my name, Deborah McPhilemy, which is spelled ‘McPhilemy.’ And then my Selfie School is, as I said, it's selfieschool, but it's .me. It's the School of self, and it helps people to get back to themselves, to love themselves, to return to self. So just put my name in social media and I'll come up somewhere. And you can connect with me in my free group. You can ask questions, are always welcome. I always welcome people to contact me and ask for help.
Rob: Wow. Thank you so much, Deb. You are truly an inspiration. Thank you again for coming on, for a few minutes of your time, for opening up. I know it's resonated with Marissa and myself. I'm sure that a lot of people listening really took a lot for that. So, thank you so much for your time and continued success moving forward.
Deborah: You're very welcome and thanks for doing this guys. It's really needed.
Rob: Absolutely. This was an honor. We'll have to do it again sometime. And always, guys, as I always say here: Stay safe. Stay positive. Take care of each other. We're out. Peace.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today we have a really, really awesome crew of of bad-ass veteran women who started a grassroots organization fighting for the military sexual trauma movement, MST survivor, and suicide prevention, but also awareness. And I'm just really, really thrilled to have them here. So we're gonna go around and introduce ourselves. I'm Marissa, I'm the host of Healing From Emotional Abuse, Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, and author of the best-selling anthology series, Breaking Through the Silence, but enough about me. Hey Pamela, do you want to introduce yourself?
Pamela: Yeah, sure. My name is Pamela Heal. And I am an eight year Navy Combat Veteran and MST Survivor. I got out of the military, because I got to a point after being assaulted So many times, I just realized, for me, the military wasn't safe. And when I got out, I kind of, like, ran away from my problems. For a long time, I had a great career working as a cosmetology educator. And, you know, then I got triggered by a student actually stalked me, and it triggered the hell out of me, because nobody believed me. And that triggered me just reminding exactly what I went through in the military. And I realized I can't escape this, and I quit my job, and I spent all my money on drugs, and went through a couple of suicide attempts. And, you know, really, really went to the depths of my own pain. And when I started to pull myself out of it, go to therapy, get help. I, part of my healing process, began to talk about my story and talk about what had happened to me and not just not just the actual trauma, but dealing with it for the rest of my life, what that's like and why we need to make changes. And you know, that advocacy eventually led me to this group of other MST Survivor veteran women who got together because we, you know, just got fed up. We’re tired of these stories. We're tired of hearing about Vanessa Guillen, and, Elder, and all of our other brothers and sisters who have experienced sexual violence, or sexual harassment in the military. It's just like enough is enough tired people dying. So yeah, that's who I am. Thank you for having us.
Marissa: Of course. Thank you for sharing. Okay, Lucy, do you mind introducing yourself?
Lucy: Hi, I'm Lucy Del Gaudio, US Army Veteran, MST Survivor. Got involved in this fight by a mutual women veteran that is in this space as well. And it's been a ride, but a very, at times very, with highs and times very low. Like right now I feel like I'm in a low period. It's been, it's been a crazy ride. I think for me, what's been really triggering is a my Latino community communities being really affected. My black and brown communities being really affected. You know, I, at first try to stay away from the Vanessa Guillen case, because it was very triggering for me. But then a friend called me and told me that he can't stop watching the news and not thinking, like seeing her image and it reminded him of me, and that really just, you know, kind of made me take this deep dive. But I'm very honored to be amongst this group of women that I've been surrounded with because they have truly become sisters. And pillars for me, Because at times, I feel alone. Because a lot of my community here like a lot of my friends, they don't understand what actually I went through and they can't talk the language like we talk the language when we're in a room together. It's a fuel that sometimes we need, but it's also the support that we constantly need. And I think right now we have to be Way more supportive than combative against each other, because you know how it is when you're working in the women's space that sometimes it's like a combat zone within ourselves. But right now we really have to stand strong because of the time. It's like not stopping. It's like you can't hit stop or pause. And, you know, that's it. So that's me.
Marissa: Thank you for sharing. And I'm really happy that you found a collective group of people who not only share what, you know, you went through, but also share the mentality of this needs to be a supportive environment and not a combative environment. I think that's so important for people. So thank you. Sherry, do you mind introducing yourself?
Sherry: I am the one non veteran in the group on but I am also a MST survivor of assault and harassment, retaliation. I was a SARC for the United States Marine Corps. And I work for the behavioral health branch at headquarters Marine Corps, when I was sexually harassed the first time. I was told by my superiors not to report it. That not only would my career be impacted, but my husband's career who is a Marine Corps officer, his career would be potentially ruined is was the gist of the conversation. I was told not to ring that bell. I received a promotion, and then went to the SAPR world, the Sexual Assault Prevention Response world where I was a SARC and I stood up a new bullet in the Marine Corps where I oversaw a very geographically distant command. I had over 5000 Marines plus families, on let's see over 600 locations. So it was a challenge. So every one of the Marines and Sailors that walked through the door on to any one of the SARCs that worked in my command, or the SAPR victim advocates, and I was responsible for that. For that Marine. My Commanding General, and I worked very well together. A couple of them, and I worked very well together, on but I'm here because of what I went through. I was on the receiving end of sexual harassment by a Marine Corps officer. I was later retaliated against by general officer. And as a federal employee, I had to fight in both worlds. I had to fight in the Marine Corps Justice world, when you get under the UCMJ, to have my offenders held accountable. But I also had to fight on the civilian side. And I say civilian side, I mean, the Federal EEO side, because it's not civilian. There are differences in those requirements and what you can do when you're a federal employee, and so I had to fight on both sides for justice. And it gave me a depth of understanding that most civilians, I would be pretty comfortable saying, do not have an understanding of what our service members go through on a daily basis when they are a MST survivor or victim of this type of abuse, abuse of power. You name it, I've probably been through it. No, I didn't wear the uniform. But that doesn't mean I don't understand or that I didn't experience a lot of what these women did. The Nexus for military sexual trauma is the military. And that's, what I'm here to do is to share awareness and build awareness, because there are a lot of marginalized voices out there still, to this day, that have never spoken up about their MST trauma. And to be honest, we haven't really thought of them up until this point. Or acknowledged that they are a part of this journey for justice that we are all on, I think collectively. This group of ladies has just as taken me in. And I appreciate that. We've talked about being lonely. We are we are MST survivor, we are incredibly strong. But even we have days like today where we are. We're struggling. I think I told you before, but the nightmares that I had last night. PTSD sucks when it's military, sexual trauma (MST) related when it's any type of trauma related And we do feel alone. And I think that coming together, our voices are louder. And whatever we say may not resonate with one person But collectively, I think our voices will continue to be heard more and more as we get louder, and louder. And really just fucking louder.
Marissa: I completely agree, you know, when you might not affect everybody, but you if you affect one person and you teach one person that they're not alone, I think that that's the most important. And if everyone is speaking up, then everyone is going to be heard and relatable. Does that make sense? Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here, Sherry. Lindsay, would you mind introducing yourself?
Lindsay: Yeah, totally. Um, hi, Lindsey Church here, Executive Director and Co-Founder of Minority Veterans of America. I served in the Navy from 2008 to 2012. I am also the third generation military, my mom served in the Navy, my grandfather served in the Navy and some other folks have been the Air Force. We don't talk about that. But I experienced sexual harassment. When I was in the service, I was not sexually assaulted. I barely put my sexual harassment together as a veteran that the system of Don't Ask Don't Tell them the discriminatory practices that made it impossible for us to share what we are going through, made it really easy for people to harass and assault LGBTQ service members. I have been working in this space for I think, seven years started with student veterans now work with minority veterans see a lot of folks in our work that are MST survivor s. Many of the most atrocious stories you'll ever hear are members of MVA. I'm really grateful and proud to be leading this community and serving survivors of so many things and got involved in this work through a mutual colleague that I think many of us are connected to that, you know, when Vanessa Guillen was, her body was discovered she, you know, called a group of us together and said, I don't know what we're gonna do. And I don't know how we're going to do it. But I know that we can't stop like we have to, we have to do something this epidemic of sexual assault and harassment and violence is too much. It's too much for our community to continue to stand by and continue to let people serve or not let people we don't let anybody serve, but to continue to endorse the military as a place that we belong in a place that can keep us safe, and it's not. And so, you know, what, we're trying to accomplish a systemic change. We can't I mean, even in the speeches that many of us, you know, started with it said, Vanessa Gullen, you know, like we want, we want no more Vanessa Guillen’s. Well, guess what, there's more. There's already been more Vanessa Guillen’s since Vanessa Guillen was murdered, and Vanessa Guillen was only murdered five months ago. And there, you know, like the story of Sgt. Elder Fernandez today's is another example of what the military does to MST survivors. So yeah, thank you for having us. Super grateful to be here and have a conversation. So thanks.
Marissa: Thank you so much for sharing all that. And what's the name of the organization Minority Veterans of America?
Lindsay: Minority Veterans of America.
Marissa: Minority Veterans of America. Okay, awesome. Send me links and stuff to your Instagram and social media so I can post it on the description And fun, weird side note, I wrote a paper in 2010 about Don't Ask Don't Tell and why it needed to be repealed. That got me into a bunch of colleges.
Lindsay: I thank you for doing that. Because while we were serving, we didn't have any power to do anything to change it. Much like the situation we're seeing now. Like service members don't have a lot of control over the situation. They just have to endure it. And so thank you for your work and the fact that you were fighting for me when I didn't even know you.
Marissa: Well, I appreciate you fighting for me and I didn't know you. Okay, and last but not least, Erin, would you mind introducing yourself?
Erin: Of course my pleasure. My name is Erin Kirk Cuomo. I am the Co-Founder and Director for an organization called Not in My Marine Corps. Our primary mission is to advocate for MST Survivors and military harassment survivors. But we also advocate for civilians who are also impacted by MST, military members assaulting and harassing them as well. So our organization is pretty much there for not only Marines, but also Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, as well as any civilians who have been impacted by MST survivor. We primarily came up in the DC area during the Marines United — Nude photo scandal about five years ago — where we were advocating for changes to the UCMJ to hold non-consensual imagery, offenders accountable under a specific clause in the UCMJ. As well as, incorporating that into the Marine Corps as a Page 11. The Marine Corps decided to make all marine sign up page 11 on social media behavior, which to this day still does not have an impact on how Marines treat especially women and minorities on the Internet and on social media platforms. And most of the time when you see that, especially towards women and minorities it incorporates some kind of verbal harassment, sexual assault talk or verbiage in their responses, as well as a lot of racist language. So it's definitely something that we keep an eye on And that's also how we were brought into this Grassroots Organization. We had been vocal. Well, Vanessa Guillen was missing, that the Army needed to look further into the charges her family brought that she had been harassed by her superior NCO. And initially, the Army had indicated that they had no credible information that that could anyway tie into her disappearance. For us in this space, we absolutely know the alarm bells were ringing, very loud and clear when we heard that and that we knew that that is going to be something that is a very large part in her disappearance. And, you know, to translate this now to Sergeant Elder Fernandez, this is exactly how the military and the army specifically fails, MST survivors, sexual assault and harassment survivors, he reported violence, sexual contact, combative sexual contact, and was simply just moved out of his command. That's not acceptable. This is not an acceptable way to handle sexual harassment and assault in this environment that directly leads to retaliation, which I can guarantee you this Sergeant experience. So the Army right now not only has Vanessa Guillen death and murder on their hands, but they also have Sergeant Fernandez. And I think that when you talk to all of us in this group, every single person that comes after it is a direct correlation to their failures, and it is on their shoulders.
Marissa: Thank you for sharing. I completely agree with everything that you said. Yes. Applause. I completely agree with everything you said. The problem I see is that the Army or the military in general is never held accountable. So we see it as on their hands. And it's their responsibility to fix but they don't. So I would love if everyone would unmute, can we foster a conversation about that. About the military? Isn't held accountable, like what needs to change what needs to be done? And what does your grassroots organization do to kind of break that silence and make them make them you know, speak for what they are allowing?
Erin: Oh, I think we have to talk about the command investigation structure first. We can’t go into this man's are investigating themselves. I just it's it blows my mind that people can't see that this is the issue. Like it's asking the police officer to investigate his partner.
Pamela: Also it’s offering an anecdotal example as to why that there's such a problem. My fifth install, and I mentioned before I experienced six. I was E5 in the Navy. I had a decent amount of experience. I knew how the UCMJ worked. I knew what my rights were. I was a cop in the Navy, so I knew that shit. I was assaulted by my chief. And when I reported it, the SHARP advocate I was given, was sleeping with him. Classic. And they were they were, they were both married to other people who were in, you know, obviously not they're on deployment with us. So that that's a standard story as a veteran, you know, that one. Like people go on deployment and all hell breaks loose. But the thing is, there were a lot of levels and things that shouldn't have been happening, but they were both Chiefs. The woman who was my advocate was the Chief, and they, you know, had the whole chiefs mess, which is a, this is a Navy tradition. But anyone who's a seven or above, they kind of are in their own little fraternity of leadership and a friendship and they really protect each other. And so immediately, the entire Chiefs Mess, as we call it, started harassing me. Started making my work harder. I was in charge of the berthing spaces, and they had a surprise inspection of our berthing, and torn apart and told everyone that it was my fault because the place wasn't clean. Which is just doesn't make any sense. But it was just like, the idea was to just trash my name as much as possible. And also, you know, silence the story, which is exactly what happened. I got real, real tired of fighting for myself, and I just got really quiet and decided to get out. But, you know, I didn't get any justice there at all. In fact, I got so much retaliation, that it silenced me and that Chief, he was able to retire. And, you know, now he gets a pension from the military, and he's a sex offender. Nobody cares.
Erin: There's no registry for military sex offenders. And for the most part, they when they do get out of the military, they are not reported to civilian sex offender registries. So I want to bring up a case that actually just came out about a week ago. It's from the Air Force. It's a Senior Master Sergeant. That was selected. Now correct me if I'm wrong, because I am terrible with Air Force ranks. I was a Marine, Senior Master Sergeant Jeremy Zier, sexually assaulted a co-worker. And you want to know what his punishment was? He was selected for E9. His punishment was his line number was removed, so he's not going to get the promotion to E9. He's not going to jail. He's not being demoted. And he is going to be given the opportunity to get promoted again and finish out his career and retire. So is his survivor says, “This week my assaulter Senior Master Sergeant Jeremy M. Zier, was found guilty in a military court for abusive sexual contact and dereliction of duty. I would like you all family and friends to read my impact statement,” and I will provide that link to you. This is a sham. This is a prime example of how military handling sexual assault and harassment is a complete and utter sham. And it's infuriating.
Lindsay: Well, I mean, like you're also talking about like the sex offender registry. I mean, it's anybody will probably tell you it's an extreme example. Jeffrey Dahmer was released from the military because they didn't believe that he would be a problem in the civilian world after assaulting I think was it six men in the military. Yeah, there's a big article that came out that was like, talking about the six men speaking out there were assaulted. And then he went on to murder people like when he was never transferred to any registry, he was just thought to believe like they believe that he just would be better in the civilian world. Like, no that's not how this works. And commands investigating themselves, like imagine that you are you get in trouble if your command is known to be one that has a lot of sexual harassment and assault problems. Well, if you have control over those numbers coming up, wouldn't you want to control them if it meant that your promotion would be eliminated if you were in Fort Hood and found to be one of the like worst installations in the entire army? Yeah, you would probably try and limit those. The military has proven time and time again, even when they investigate themselves, they don't do so completely. Like when we went so we there was a hearing on the at the for Military Personnel Committee for the House Armed Services Committee and they were talking about the era of #MeToo, Fort Hood and what happened there, and the Inspector General of the Army admitted that the first time that they went to Fort Hood, they didn't even investigate Vanessa Guillen’s Unit. Well, wait a second. Like if we're talking about Vanessa Guillen and what happened to her, why would you not investigate her unit or even talk to them? It doesn't make any sense. So even when the army like comes back with this report that says that the Fort Hood met standards, were you actually going to look at all of Fort Hood and the place it was known to be the worst? So, how do they expect us to believe that the military actually does know how and will actually release the results without an independent investigation? So one of the things that advocates have been pushing for a long time as a military justice Improvement Act, which would change the way that reporting for sexual assault and harassment would have to be recorded. So you'll be given a third independent investigator, somebody who's not in the chain of command that doesn't have a like a say, or like, they're not going to be impacted by whether or not the command is investigated. You need somebody that's independent of the chain of command to be able to look into these cases. Otherwise, you're never going to know like, what's actually happening.
Erin: And also someone who is experienced in investigating sexual harassment and assault. We have people that are doing these investigations for the commands that have absolutely no idea what they're doing, have no idea how to conduct interviews, and are simply just doing this to try and move it along.
Sherry: So, let me add to that, having gone through four separate investigations, to finally get to the point where I am now, the first investigation was part of an IG conversation that was held. And the IG inspector asked me, “Well you weren't you know, you are on the fifth deck of the marsh building for the with the Marine Corps and headquarters anymore? What do you have to bring to this discussion?That would be a value?" Okay, so all the people who said hey, you need to speak to this person who has an experience when you're investigating a persistent, toxic environment. This is how you're going to start out that conversation. The second investigation, I was asked to go meet with an a colonel in a building on Marine Corps Base Quantico that I was not familiar with this Colonel who I did not know. I was not allowed to bring anybody with me either. This Colonel whom I did not know took me into the bowels of a building walking me with him to talk about my sexual harassment and retaliation through a building that I was not familiar with into a dark room alone with this man. Again, probably not the best way but he is the one who got tasked to do the investigation. The third investigation, third, that I was a part of was for another set of retaliation that I experienced by yet another supervisor. And this one I got assigned a Captain, who, in the GS and NATH, you're supposed to have equivalent or higher duty investigation. I outranked him by two grades, technically. He came and had a conversation, but he brought an HR person with him, who then later (This is supposed to be a confidential conversation, right?). This individual then, the HR rep took that information back to the HR office and discussed it. Also discussed it with agency counsel, who, what she was not cleared to discuss any of this information with. Then I had to go nuclear and go to the press in order to get an investigation. Ironically, that worked. I was able to eventually get the Commandant of the Marine Corps to open up, agreed to open up an investigation on my sexual harassment on the offender. And I can tell you, the difference in that investigation was night and day. The individual that they brought in, was a trained attorney. This was an individual who worked for the Department of Justice. Was a Marine Corps officer as a Reservists and the quality of that conversation was like Night and Day. It was truly an investigation. And it started out as such. I mean, this, first of all, this individual came to me in my building, because he acknowledged my safety concerns. He asked first, would you be comfortable meeting me elsewhere? And I said, “No. I am only comfortable, you know, right now, I'm in certain spaces." And he said, “Not a problem. I will come to you. Would you like to have somebody with you for support?” You mean, I can have somebody? And the quality… But just the questions that were asked, the reason I bring this up is because you have to have a trained investigator, somebody who has served on both the defense and the prosecution, they know what they're doing. And the way that they asked those questions, you can tell. And it was only then that my offender was then held to probably the least form of accountability that could be. But eventually it was determined that he would be forcibly retired. But he was forcibly retired at the same rank. Granted, he didn't pick up his promotion to Lieutenant Colonel and didn't get to take over a command full of our most vulnerable population of who leaves for every branch of the service. So there is that which I feel pretty darn good about.
Lucy: I'm gonna jump in because I'm, you know, how about the ones that we never get justice? My chain of command didn't give didn't give a fucking rat's ass. I went to them. I was 48 hours after my assault, I went to them. I told every single person in my chain command. And all they did was question me, and I was the bad guy. I was the reason that I got assaulted. So I did everything to get assaulted, and I was ruining a man's career.
Erin: Yep.
Lucy: That's, where I get infuriated. Because again, you know, I hear your story, Sherry, I hear how you went through all these different steps. And then you finally got someone in your chain of command that actually felt compassion for you. But you know what, there's plenty of us that they don't give a fuck what happens to us because all they're all they're in tuned, is that you are trying to ruin someone's goddamn career. And I am to the point that we have to have that structure. We have to have that outside command. We have to have that safe place where you could say, I got assaulted. Well, Lucy, we're going to start investigating everything. Because again, you know, and in the last 45 days, I keep on replaying that day. And when I went in there, when I was forcibly told to leave my room, go get dressed, go to your office, and tell everybody what happened to you. And then hearing, Are you sure? Are you sure? And that pisses me the goddamn off. And I can just imagine what Elder Fernandez, what Vanessa Guillen… and Vanessa didn't tell anybody. But yet, I told someone, Elder told someone, we told people and nobody goddamn protected us. Nobody gave a fucking shit. And that's what I'm tired of that. I'm tired of that. Like, nobody gives a rat's ass and I'm sorry that I'm getting so like, fired up. And so like, you know, belligerent and so like, you know, but I'm just tired of hearing that chain of commands are doing their own investigating, someone needs to investigate that chain of command. At that point, that's what is going on. Like someone go in there and just wipe that slate clean, because they are an issue. That whole base is a whole issue. They have problems. It's toxicity. It's toxic leadership that continues to plague our military time and time again. It's not just the Army. It's every single branch and we have to get rid of it. It's time and time again. I'm tired. I'm frustrated. It needs to stop. This can't go on anymore. And again, it's not, you know, I you know, I know there's people that talk about the Latino community. I know they talk about the black and browns. It's a freaking problem. Get rid of that good old boys club. Let's get rid of them. I'm tired. I'm done. That's it. And I've given my two cents.
Lindsay: Lucy's ready to burn the patriarchy today.
Pamela: When you are in uniform. You're you are. You're told right away when you join and you're told every day after that you are, you know the property of the federal government. Your rights are, you don't really have them. So when you're trying to advocate for yourself, it's nearly impossible to do that. It's terrifying to say, my Chief assaulted me, or my Sergeant is harassing me. You're telling on your boss to your boss. You’ve got to remember that, you know, commanding officers and people in power. They don't want report saying that anyone in their command has been sexually harassed or assaulted. That's not a good look for them. So they're going to do everything in their power to silence people, but not because and it's unfortunate, but that's just, you know, there's a conflict of interest there. Because you've got, you've got someone who's just been victimized who was, you're just terrified to talk about it anyway, right? You've got someone who's been victimized, and then they, want to get justice, if they have the guts to do it, which is a whole other set. It's terrifying because again, they own you. So you're telling the system that hurt you, that owns you that they hurt you. Just think about that real quick. Like this system is not set up to encourage you to advocate for yourself in any kind of way. You don't have first amendment rights, you can't speak to the media.
Lindsay: You can leave either. You can go home, like there's no quitting our plays are no quitting your job and just walking away. Not that, that's an easy thing to do, but it's not like, I gotta go, this is a really toxic work environment. Here I go. It's like, “Oh, shit, well, my option is a felony, or staying here in this bullshit." It's an impossible situation.
Pamela: They have the power to ruin your career if they want.
Lindsay: It's not just your career, it’s your whole life.
Erin: So, I want to make one point here, because, you know, throughout Sherry's story, you have to remember that Sherry was a high level, GS worker, government service worker. And officer level civilian employee, she had to go to the Commandant of the Marine Corps while she was working at headquarters Marine Corps to get any kind of justice. Imagine the people like Sergeant Fernandez and Vanessa Guillen. And Pamela, and Lucy, and Lindsay, and me being E3, E4 or First Lieutenants. How do you think if someone like Sherry, who practically works directly for the Commandant Marine Corps can't get justice? Without close to four investigations? How does a little E3 Lance Corporal in the Marine Corps going to get any kind of justice? This is not something that that we can let go anymore because it is not working.
Lindsay: One, Erin, you I know, you know, statistics more than anybody, like, isn't the highest rate of folks that are sexually harassed and assaulted below the grade of E4?
Erin: yes.
Lindsay: So when we talk about who's being most harmed by the system, and who has the most access to power, you're looking at the people that are most harmed by the system with the least access to power. And when you talk about rape and sexual assault, I think that people the general public, I think, forgets that rape and sexual assault are not about sexual gratification. It's about dominance. It's about power, which is all the military is designed around. And which is a really sad thing when you think about like how our antiquated our military has become. But we now we still in 2020, haven't realized that brute force isn't really the way. And yet this is what our culture continues to perpetuate. And so you look at like, how do we abuse the most weak and vulnerable or you're going to abuse the E4s and E3s. We're going to abuse the people of color. We're going to abuse the people who are not native English speakers, or that their families are not. When you look at the case of Vanessa Guillen, and Elder Fernandez, the families are, I believe that Elder’s family is Portuguese speaking. And so you're looking at like the most vulnerable, both in the military and out of the military. So of course, it's about power and dominance. And of course, we're going to continue to pick these folks off, like because also like the military looks at the E3s and E4s as if we're all in abundance. Like we can just get a new E3, we can get a new E4. We can’t get a new E9. That’s going to take a long time. But so we're expendable or fodder to the fucking fire. Sorry, soapbox.
Marissa: No, that was great.
Erin: Absolutely true.
Lindsay: Yeah. I'm mad today. I'm really mad today.
Erin: Yeah, I think we're all really mad today. You know, through our whole grassroots movement, we've been screaming about this and saying, “Not one more.” And it's like every week, there's one more. Every day we see somebody else missing or somebody else is struggling to get justice for their assaults. And every day we're seeing, you know, the perpetrators of these crimes, continue in their jobs; continue with their rank; and continue to retire with absolutely nothing done to help hold them accountable. So yeah, Damn straight, we're freaking angry. We're really angry.
Marissa: And we should be angry. And the problem is that anger is falling on deaf ears.
Pamela: I think it's not just anger too, it's a whole other host of emotions. I mean, there are people that you know, that are in our group. But are really, really, really struggling right now. Because it's so hard to speak and speak and speak. I mean, many of us have been doing this. I mean, Erin's been doing it for seven years, you know. This is not a new problem, right. And suddenly, the media is giving it more attention, which is like a bittersweet thing. It's like, thank you for finally listening. But why the fuck are you now, only now you're listening, you know?
Lindsay: Well, and also, it's like, in addition, like, that's a great thing. And also like your stories. All you're reading is like your abuse and trauma over and over in the news. And so you're being re traumatized every single time. Sorry.
Pamela: Yeah, no, it that it's, it's super triggering for that reason, because I don't love, I don't often go into the details of what happened to me. Like the actual details, because it's so awful. And it's not a space I want to live in forever. And at the same time, it's also true that these things have to be discussed over and over and over again until change happens. And so because of that reason, all of us I think, are really hurting if we're going to be truly honest. Because you know, whether or not you can manage your triggers well, it depends on the day, and the circumstances of that day brings you. But while you're dealing with that, I mean, we really all truly do as a group really embrace each other. And so when you see one of your people really, really hurting. That's really challenging, too, because all you want to do is do better for your community. That's why we're doing this. It's not because it's super fun to talk about being raped, because it's not. So, having to have those conversations over and over and over again, please listen to us. Please listen to us. Please listen to us. When are you going to make the changes that we are, as survivors are telling you HAVE to happen? It's not a negotiable thing. Like if these things have to happen, so that people stop getting sexually assaulted, people stop killing themselves, or killing each other. Has to happen! Like how many more people have to die? How many more?
Lindsay: And the thing too is, like what I would argue is, one of the most harmful things about what happens when the media takes hold is that it's all we only ever get to share stories. We don't get to share solutions. We don't get to say this is the story, which is a really important part of this. But the more important part to sharing these stories is the solutions that come with it. Like why the fuck are you like asking me to like cut my wrists open and show you that I bleed red. And you won't even listen to me about what I to do. I can so you see this perpetuation of harm and that like it's sensationalized. And it's all about, you know, what can I what kind of, you know, what's the most traumatic thing that you can pull out of your like weapon of Arsenal tools, and actually, the best thing that I can give you is the solution for it. You know, like, you need to be willing to both hear the stories and get one get in the fight and to implement the solutions. If you're in a position of power, instead of just sitting here and writing. I mean, like writing stories is super important. Now we need to write the stories about what we want and how we're going to change it. What we're going to do about it, and what the American public is willing to do and sacrifice in order to make these changes happen. So the media has done great about like getting the story started. Now it's not about the story. It's about the solution and how we're going to put pressure on the people that can implement these solutions to make these changes so that we can stop working so hard for nothing.
Erin: I call it Trauma porn. Yeah, I call it trauma porn because I cannot tell you how many times I get media inquiries, asking me to find active duty survivors that are willing to tell their story. You know how awful and dangerous that is,? I can’t. I am a public affairs person at heart. So I do try to explain the consequences of MST, military sexual trauma, PTSD related to MST. And also what you can do to a survivor if you bring them out and put them on television, without them having, number one gotten through their trauma to a point where they are healthy enough to do this. Second, that they have a support network, because I guarantee you every single person that comes on and does this is immediately going to go and be triggered afterwards.
Pamela: Yep. Ordering and terrified. It's going to happen to them. Yeah.
Marissa: And retaliated against when they're done.
Erin: Correct. No, it's just it's really frustrating that we can't get past this. Lindsey said, “Yes. All of these stories are important to show the pervasive nature of harassment and assault in the military. But we have to push through this. We have to put To what kind of legislation can we push? What kind of legislation do we need? Who's going to support us in this in the house in the Senate, who is going to be there, you know, on those flagstones in front of the Capitol building with us saying This has to stop?” So you know, and I really think that's what's important about this grassroots organization is you can see that we all don't belong to the same advocacy organization. Some of us don't even belong to an organization. But we are all so fed up with this, that we've come together and have said, you know, enough is enough. And I think that when we had our day in DC, you saw that through the press conference, as well. We had reps that formerly, who were in the military who did not support taking investigations out of the chain of command, who did a complete 180 and stood there beside us that that morning. And said, we were wrong, and we are going to do what's right to make this better. So you know, this is a bipartisan issue. This is not a partisan, talking point. Military Sexual Assault, MST and the trauma and PTSD that results in that, including the murders and the suicides, is a problem that every single party, Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Green Party, I don't care who you are, this is something that everybody needs to be invested in.
Lucy: But this is also a huge educational factor right now. We have to educate people what actually takes place in the military, what actually takes place culturally and figuratively, when it comes to being in the inside pocket of the military. But also once you get outside and in the veteran organization-scape and what takes place. People need to realize that not every single veteran organization is there for the veteran. So not every, person that says they're helping veterans actually helping veterans. And some people are in there for the wrong reasons. Like right now I'm reading my phone right now someone sent me something that totally infuriated me. So now Lucy's back on her soapbox, because I'm on fire right now. So I'm tired of people that say they're actually doing something structurally, and not doing something structurally, you know what I mean? I don't have time for you to say that you're helping me when all you want is that highlight. I'm tired of that bullshit, you know what I mean, if you're going to do the job, you've got to do it, right. And I want to see a freaking result. Okay. And in the Latino space, we tend to be like, Oh, you put doctor in front of the name, you're gonna respect the person, if it's a doctor. And if you put Esquire in the back of the name, you're gonna respect them, because they have Esquire in the back of that name, you got to stop that philosophy, you got to see who's actually proven their point and have done their due diligence is really helping people. And again, the mindset of MST, military sexual trauma is completely different. In all of us have different ways of how we're feeling and how we treat what's going on. So again, education is key. So you know, the legislative side how things are taking place, of how it factors into the person, the human being. Because some of these questions like media ask, and some of the questions just in the general public asked. it's like, dude, like, Don't ask me that question. Do you realize what you just asked a survivor. And that is really something that needs to like the public needs to be educated on what actually takes place, how the culture works, and how we could stop it. Because our biggest allies are the public that are reading these New York Times articles. That are reading that are watching NBC and ABC News. They are the ally that we need, and get them up to speed and maybe we can make a difference.
Sherry: I think it's important to note that the policies and procedures that they've got in place, they simply don't work. When you have to report your sexual assault, your sexual harassment to someone within your chain of command, that doesn't work. And the reason that I mentioned every, not every step, because clearly there's a lot more to it. But the steps that I went through the steps that I had to take even to get to what little bit of accountability. I'm not gonna call it justice anymore, because there was accountability that should have happened. But we have to force them to get to that point. We have these. We have the UCMJ we have these laws and these policies and procedures in place, but they simply they don't follow them. And every single time that they can find a loophole to benefit the offender, they're going to do it. They don't ever use any loopholes, to benefit the victim. Ever. I've not heard one victim step forward and say, "Well, you know, they kind of skirted through this for me.” No, it's always for the offender. By removing and by forcing accountability, they asked how we want to fix this. Accountability. Start holding people accountable. Remove the commander's from the investigatory process. We have these laws in place. Let's use them. Let's add the sex offender registry. Let's make sure that our victims are taken care of. That they receive the support services that they need. And discretion is another thing, the use of discretion. It drives me bonkers to think about that an investigation can happen. But then the senior person can say, “Well, I'm gonna use my discretion, and we're just gonna give you a little slap on the wrist, even though you should have been charged under the UCMJ for under any number of articles,” but they still they use that discretion. That discretion is the good old boys club at work right there. Because what they're doing is they're protecting the retirement and the pay for that Airman, sailor, marine.
Pamela: Erin was mentioning before, you know, the E8 gentlemen, if we want to call him that. I like to say, gentlemen, ironically, when we're talking about gentlemen like this. He was he was kept in and he just didn't get promoted. And that kind of thing. I think an important point that's been made previously, in spaces that we've shared together is, you know, if you do drugs in the military, and your caught, they have a zero tolerance policy. You are out of there. Doesn't matter who you are. It doesn't matter if you're if you pop or anything, you're out. It's bonkers. Absolutely, just wild, insane to me that we do not have that same policy for sex offenders, because that's what we're talking about here. We are talking about people who are enabled to be sex offenders, continuously, because if you do it once, it's not the only time. Okay, so you're repeatedly doing this as a leader in the military and getting paid with taxpayer money for the rest of your life, and you're retired, and you're a sex offender, and nobody cares. As long as you're not doing drugs. That's the message that we're sending to people in the military, every time that someone gets off for being in any kind of trouble for this, it's like, well, you know, at least aren't doing drugs like, well, you should stop that, but it's fine.
Lindsay: It's interesting that you say that because like, you know, like the zero tolerance policy became a big deal when I was in the service like 2008-2012. The Navy's like, Right Spirit program or like, Right Spirit Right Time, you know, whatever it is. And it was a big deal because they didn't want underage drinking, and like drinking and driving and all of those things. And they were so like, adamant about it. I mean, I watched one Public Captain's Mass. One E4 that got a DUI. Okay. Military is big on discipline. The military is big on rule enforcement. Why the fuck is why if a commander is so intent on making sure that all of their service members or their: soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, coasties, are doing what they're supposed to, why are they letting this go? This is a discipline problem and you shouldn't be like, I would be pissed if I was leading troops if I was leaving service members. Why would you think that if you have a pervasive issue of sexual assault, harassment and sexual violence in the military, and it's a discipline problem, and they're not listening to you like, why are you not taking greater anger in that? I don't understand that part.
Pamela: It's literally embedded in the culture that victimizing people is to be celebrated. And the only way that you change culture is you change policy. That is a fact. So yeah, this culture hurts, it hurts to think about. It hurts to think about the leadership that just has failed us so many times. They aren't going to be held accountable until a policy holds them accountable. And that is how you change the culture.
Erin: Well, keep in mind just in the Marine Corps, the Marine Corps still segregates enlisted women from enlisted men in boot camp.
Pamela: That doesn't happen in the Navy. I was in a Co-Ed integrated boot camp in 2006.
Lucy: I went through basic with just women.
Erin: And that's the way it is the last service that still segregates by gender. Please tell me how that isn't othering a whole group of people. And it also shows your less.
Lindsay: The other part of it is, the military is saying in the instance that this isn’t an issue of sexual assault, harassment and violence. What they're saying is that the only way that we can control our Marines, especially male Marines, is that we have to take the women away because they can't control themselves. That’s a bad message.
Marissa: Yeah, absolutely. And this is, I mean, related, but unrelated. This goes back to like, in high school when girls aren't allowed to wear certain shirts because it could distract the men's learning. So why are we why is that still like embedded in our culture civilian and military? That's so stupid.
Lindsay: Well, why am I so glad? Actually there might be a few fewer women that are going to be sexually harassed and assaulted. There's a part of me that's very protective, especially of women because they're more likely to be assaulted by prevalence, that there's like maybe just a chance that a few fewer are getting harassed and assaulted because they're separated. There's I did it all part of me that's actually kind of happy about that; and also pissed at the same time and confused and conflicted I mean,
Pamela: I think about going to boot camp; they all you know, they don't know your name yet. Right? You don't have name tapes on yet. So, it’s all “female” “female”. I remember getting into an argument actually my very first day of boot camp because I was like, you know, I don't really appreciate the way that you're calling me female This is day one of boot camp. I got PCs so hard for that.
Lindsay: But for the rest of your career, you're referred to as a female. It gets to a point where you walk into a room and you know, everyone's looking at you because you're a woman.
Lucy: Yeah, I did a I did a two week TDY during Desert Storm in Kuwait. And they told us we had to do PT. It was only two female in the whole TDY platoon. And they basically told me that I had to wear sweats. And I'm like, why the hell am I going to wear sweats? It's like sweltering out there. And they go, because we don't want the men to look at you. And I'm like, Okay, so, I have to sweat off my tits for this, you know, because then you don't want them to look at me a certain way? And that totally pissed me off. So I went out there anyway, and I put on my shorts, my gray shorts, my gray army shirt. And I went out there and I, you know, and I wasn't gonna let them stop telling me to wear a pair of sweats. And I go, look, I'm sorry, if you guys want to look at me this way, because you can't control yourself, That’s your issue. That's not my issue. Because I'm standing here this same heat that yours handy. And I'm not going to be here in a pair of sweats, whether you like this or not. And I had to fight them for two weeks, two weeks of losing. “Private Chinea, make sure you wear your sweats.” No, I'm not going to wear my sweats. You know, "Private Chinea, remember to wear your sweats.” No, I'm not going to wear my sweats. And when I got back to Germany, they're like, “Private Chinea, were you belligerent?” Of course I was belligerent. It's fucking hot out there. They want me to wear fucking sweats. Are you fucking kidding me? Like, no, I don't have time for this bullshit. You know what I mean? So that's the thing. I'm sorry that I'm you know, I'm Latina. And I'm somewhat sexual. Like I can't that's the way I was made. I can't make that change. But I can tell people like, Don't look at me that way. Because I am your sister, I'm your sister in arms, and you're supposed to respect me. It's a brotherhood. It's a sisterhood, you're supposed to respect me, regardless of what I look like. So that was something that really like, I always look back at that, should I have been less of a sexual human being or not? Like, they kind of like desexualize you, but also sexualize you in some composure. And again, I always look back at that, because, again I'm not shaped the way a lot of you know, these PT shorts are made to be looked on, you know, and they ride us and the way our pants look or the way the shirts are, you know, they don't make it for us, you know, they don't make it with the curvy woman in mind. You know, they make it for a straight guy, you know, to you know, just to wear it that way. So it's like I couldn't make that change, you know. so when I talk when they talk about these things, it's like, Okay, so what are you going to do about it?
Marissa: Erin, so I saw that you said in the chat that you were denied flame retardant operational gear because it would show too much of your curves. Can you can you talk about that? Because I'm so curious.
Erin: So I've obviously I was public affairs, I was a combat photographer, so I was outside the wire pretty much every day with you know, the grunts with military police officers covering pretty much anything and everything. It was 2007 and we have just gotten the new desert, Flame Retardant Operational Gear (FROGS) and you came out from the Commanding General everybody if you're leaving the wire you have to have this on. So I went to pick up my gear and I was denied by the E8. So he said, “No, we're not issuing these to women.” I said, Why I have to go outside the wire tomorrow. I have to have this. And he goes, nope. So not only did I have to go and they had to run it up the chain of command because I was the only photographer so I had to go. The commanding generals aide had to call him and say you will issue this gear to this Lance Corporal, went back, picked it up, begrudgingly went back. But get this. While all the other men as soon as we would get back for missions, after being sweaty, disgusting, hungry, they got to go to the chow hall and take their flacks off and go eat. I had to go to my tent and put regular Cami’s back on so I didn't distract all of the Marines in the chow hall with my tits in my FROG. So this is this is what we talk about when we talk about a culture issue.
Pamela: Yeah, right. Many of us, we're all nodding our heads like Yeah, yeah, I have a similar story in the back of my mind. Yep. Of course. Our bodies are weaponized against us.
Erin: It's coming down to my safety. Like, you're not going to give me a piece of gear that will potentially save my life if I get blown up, because I have tits? Mm hmm. That's what you're telling you master guns, right? Like, I'm sorry. But like, as an E3, I stood there that's like, Fuck this.
Lucy: Miss Lindsay is rolling the eyes.
Lindsay: I was actually shaking my head and rolling my eyes.
Pamela: It's just too relatable. It's painful. How relatable that story is, you know. Tired of our bodies being weaponized against us and knowing that it's still happening because people are still dying.
Lindsay: Do you know how many, like the whole military is like, “You get to be one of four things: A Bitch. A Slut, or a Whore, or a Dyke."
Lucy: You're talking about that. And that's very interesting. I went to school first before I went into the military, because my dad passed away. So that's tempted me to go to the military. But before I my dad passed away, I considered the military because both of my brothers were in it. And I remember having this conversation with my dad. I’m like, “Dad, I'm thinking maybe possibly going into the military.” “No, what are you a dyke?” And I'm like, Dad, like, really? And that's the like some Latino culture. It's like, Oh, well, you're either going to school and become the artists that you want to be, or you want to go to the military because you're telling me you’re a dyke. And I'm like, is that the philosophy that you're really…? So …That’s the spectrum? Either artist or dyke? So I was like, Okay, I guess
I remember actually, when I left and I was with my brother because my brother was my recruiter. And I'm about to get on the bus to go to JFK to leave to Fort Jackson. And he goes to me bye dyke, and I go bye brother. And it was just a way. That was the way we you know, we understood it because again, my dad, in the Latino culture, that's his perception of women in the military. Was that his daughter if she joined the military, because she was telling her she was dyke. And I was like, okay, so there you go. So, even in the in when you're in the military again, you're either a slut, you're a dyke, you're a whore. You know, I was called a tramp. I was called a putah. I was called mattress,. Yeah, my favorite. My favorite one was I was called a Spear Chucker. Now, that was my favorite one. Hey, here comes the spear chucker. And I'm looking at them like a spear trucker? And I'm like, What is that? They're like, aren't you sort of sort of Indian? I'm like, Are you serious? So I was like, so I was the spear chucker. So yeah, I throw spears. So that was that was basically it. So I was called everything.
Pamela: I think my favorite one was when I was I was married for most of the time I was in the service and my married name was Von Friesen. And I was such a bitch. And so, you know, people started calling me Von Frozen because I was so cold. And I was so happy that men that I worked with found me to be cold and frozen, because that's what I wanted them to. I mean, I still had to deal with their bullshit but like, Yeah, fuck you. You know I you it does it hard at you. You have to pick a lane. Like are you going to be a hardened frozen — “I will fucking ruin you in your sleep if you cross me,” type of chick. Or are you going to be someone who is an apologist and enabler of that culture? Which a lot of women actually do choose that because it's easier for them. Yeah, it's easier for it, it's easier to support a misogynistic culture that has operated for, you know, a long time. It's easier to do that, because he in some ways, I think it probably feels safer for them, even though they're still, hurting themselves in their own way. That's, yeah, you have to pick a lane, you do. So I was Von Frozen.
Marissa: It's like, they think that being part of the boys club protects them from the boys club. But really, it's just kind of planting you in the middle of that culture. And as soon as you speak out against it, that's when it comes and bites you in the ass.
Pamela: Right. Absolutely.
Sherry: For those that unfortunately, take that route, and then become the victim themselves. Because somebody didn't, you know, didn't take no for no, then they very quickly learn once you're on the outside of that boys club, what the process and what the pain is really, really like for these very strong women who go through this.
Marissa: So what kind of I know that we covered a little bit about like, what needs to be changed? But you guys, as the grassroots organization who have all had your actual life altered by these situations, Do you have any recommendations or ideas for solutions?
Erin: Yeah, I think what we've been talking about over the last hour. I mean, it’s a good start. Remove commands from the investigations develop a military sexual predator registry, ask Congress to add sexual harassment to the Title 10. You know, all of these things are things that we all at the grassroots organization support. Not to mention, there needs to be a huge review of all these cases of women and men who have turned up dead, that are listed as suicides, because it's not passing my radar here. So you know, when we talk about these things, you know, MJIA? These are things that should have been done years ago that haven’t.
Lucy: You remember the stop? Remember when Spears in 2013, tried to put in the stop law. And I almost talked about that during my testimony, because Stop was like the first initiation of like, some sort of difference in code when it came to MST< sexual trauma, sexual harassment. And I was really for STOP. And, you know, when I was doing the testimony, I kind of almost thought about, like, that stop mentality was something that I think we should revisit, also, because it really had some very valid points when it came to it. But again, like, you know, the whole factor, is what we've been talking about all that all that change has to take place. You know, just the conversation we've been having, we've all experienced layers of different multitude of harassment and sexual assault, and it's just tiring. But again, making those changes, that third party investigating process is something that's so vital, and so needed. And, and again, just making, making awareness of the change needs to take place, and getting people to jump on board, it's like, again, we're tired, we're seeing that it's really problematic issue, and we just have to really try to change the game.
Marissa: I like that. And I definitely think that getting Congress members involved is a huge part of that. Because truly, that's the only thing aside from the President that's above the military, which is really unfortunate.
Erin: They’ve shown they’re not going to fix themselves.
Marissa: Right? Well, why would they if they don't have to? And they don't want to be held accountable anyways. I mean, going back to what we said before, you know, their pension and their promotion, everything is based on their numbers. So if they have a higher rate of sexual assault at their installation or their base, why would they impact their own lives to help other people it doesn't make sense for them. For me, and for us, it all makes sense because you want to, make the change and make the military safe for everyone. But I guess from where they're sitting, it doesn't look like that. Right?
Lucy: So, the lens, the lens, the lens definitely needs to be cleaned. Yeah, in the sense from the from the civilian eye. They have to see like again, we washed the lens during the MeToo movement. There was a different lens. And now you have to wipe off those glasses and look at the lens from the military end of what actually takes place. Because remember, women, we raise our right hand. And we go in there and we protect to serve, and nobody's protecting us. And we again, if we are protecting you, then you know what, as a civilian, you have your due diligence to learn how you could change the culture for the people that are protecting you. And to me, that's a big, I always say, again, I think sometimes our biggest allies are within ourselves, but the outside nature of the civilian party, they really need to know how they can also help us as well.
Pamela: I think the biggest thing, the best thing about this summer, the only positive is that people are listening. Even though you know, the cost has been great. But people are listening. And I think the one thing that I probably the last thing I have to say about any of this today is you know, I really encourage and implore civilians to really listen to veterans and service members, because there are a lot of civilians that are suddenly interested in helping us. You'll see a lot of civilians that are saying that they're fighting for survivors, they're fighting for veterans, they're fighting for service members. But how close are they to veterans? Because we've lived this. And we know what we're talking about. We know what this world is like. And Sherry, I don't mean you, you've survived something within the military. That's a separate conversation. I'm talking about folks that call themselves advocates, and maybe they aren't. I just implore you, I implore civilians to listen to veterans who have survived these horrors, because this isn't a new trend for us. This is our life; we've lived it. So it's important to give us the space to really tell you what we need. And tell you this isn't up for debate. Like this is how it is and this is how it needs to change. And if you haven't survived and live that your opinion is just, it's just an opinion.
Erin: And I got I gotta jump in on that. Because yes, it drives me crazy When I see all of these people doing 22 Til None, you know, I Got Your Six. All of these kinds of things that are geared specifically towards men with PTSD. That where sexual assault and harassment and MST survivors that have PTSD, potentially on top of combat PTSD are having to deal with. But it drives me crazy, because I don't see any you guys talking about this issue. But you're 22 Til None; I Got Your Six. You know, it really is frustrating. It's really infuriating that we as MST survivors, and women and men who suffer greatly with PTSD and MST are completely left out of that conversation. So wouldn't Warrior Project I'm calling you out where ya at? Yeah.
Lucy: Yeah, again, you know, we're like the invisible disability in that sense. So people go, oh, what's your disability? And I'm like, I have PTSD. Oh, really? You call that a disability? Yeah, because I goddamn struggle every goddamn single day. You know what I mean? And a lot of organizations again, like, you know, the Wounded Warriors and different organizations, they don't see that correlation. I had a backout of Team Red, White and Blue. Let's use that. They're a great example of how crappy they are. Because I wasn't the Veteran. I wasn't the mold of the veteran that they wanted the imagery of. So I was a 279 pound Captain. And again, you know, when I was holding the flag, they were looking at the weight they were looking at me Lucy, the veteran holding the flag. But the minute I decided to lose the weight because I became healthy and I took my health very into consideration. And I dropped 112 pounds and decided to go holistic with my PTSD. Then Lucy was the swelt Captain holding a flag and they want to Lucy for that imagery. So you know what, F***you because I'm not going to let that happen anymore. And that can happen but I would I say is like, the way we operate, the way with Pam, the way with Erin. We are here to support each other. There's nothing better than someone that knows what happened to support each other. So if you have questions about what's really going on, come to a survivor. We'll tell you how, and when and, and where and what you could do for us. because trust me, I love it when someone goes to me “Hey, Lucy, could you just talk to me? Walk me through this,” and I'll walk you through it. But don't make these assumptions that because you read something on a veteran service organization, and hey, do 22 push ups because that's gonna make me feel better. No. I’m sorry.
Pamela: I agree with you the push-up thing is weird. It's weird. What? How are you helping? I’m happy for your biceps bro, but what the…?
Lucy: You know, I look at my Facebook thread. And I see like a civilian women. “I swam three miles, and I did that to help those who are in pain from serving in the military?” No you didn’t. You did it because you're a lunatic. I have no other choice but to run the three miles. You're not helping me? How did that affect me? No, that didn't help me. And that's the thing. Again, I hate that like, whew, look, I you know, she's putting you know, they're posing there with their guns out. I just went three miles. I just went three miles. But again, that didn't help me. That didn't do anything for me. Again, I feel I'm not feeling your pain. Because I didn't swim the three miles for you. You know, I do my runs, I hashtag things. That's my self-gratification. But I'm not going to tell others Hey, run three miles with me because it's gonna make you feel better. No, half the people that are in my pack, like if I took Pam for a three mile run, she'll probably pass out a mile one, you know? What I'm just saying? I'm just saying, but that's right. But that again, that mentality of like, like, let's drop and do 20 to make someone feel good. I don't get it
Pamela: I don't understand that. Like, how are you keeping people from killing themselves by doing some push ups? I'm sorry, when I workout. I don't think that I'm saving anyones life. Like I just I don't understand that and how that is? Okay. Then you check the box today. And you're doing you're making the world by doing some push ups? I don't get it.
Erin: Yet, they can't they can't take five minutes to call their representatives.
Lucy: The span of time you took for that three mile swim, you could have taken and sat on the phone and called Kirsten Gillibrand, and called Cory Booker and called everybody and said, “Hey, could you help a veteran by doing this, this and that?” instead of saying, like, how about like, have you heard what happening? And hey, let's talk about that. Instead of saying, Oh, I'm going to run and I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do drop. And then and then post it on social media and oh, my God, you did good for a veteran, you know, no. It doesn’t work that way. You know, I mean, it just doesn't work that way. I'm sorry. I mean, like You got me on a good day today, because I'm so like…
Pamela: You know, people often say and I'm sure you guys all have heard this, “thank you for your service.” It kind of it's, it's this hollow thing for me when I hear people say that, like, what do you want me to say in return? You're welcome? You're like that. And they say it with this like, Oh, and by the way, thank you for your service. You're my trauma. Yeah, it's like I want to be like, okay, you're welcome. Can you sign this petition? Would you could you follow these accounts, please, and educate yourself a little bit more. I mean, you just kind of shrug and go. Mm hmm.
Lucy: I feel like I should have I feel like I should have glitter in my pocket. Like you're welcome. Like Listen, look what I just did. And I'm supposed to be like, Hey, thank you.
Sherry: Only if it’s red, white and blue. Lucy.
Lucy: Like I sit there and I'm like, I just can't I guess I again, I know that people are gonna listen to this. And I'm gonna see like, unfriend, unfriend. Who cares? Let it go. You know what I mean? I already, you know, between mine and Erin's web posts, I've lost more than this house. I've lost my waffles and pancakes. I've lost tons of friends on that respect, you know, but you know, but again, there has to be this realization that Yeah, I know people want to do good but there's other ways you could do good when it comes to this. What we're fighting for.
Pamela: As a Veteran what they need. How about that, instead? Telling you like what you need because we can tell you the answer.
Lucy: Yeah, let's talk about veteran homelessness. Let's talk about the lack of medical attention. Let's talk about the needs of MST survivors. that they're not getting back help.
Erin: Let’s talk about how the VA is failing MST survivors.
Lucy: And how and how we get harassed in the military, and then we get harassed in the VA? Yeah You know, I walked into the VA in East Orange, New Jersey, and I was waiting for a group of people. We were going to have a meeting with the director of the VA. And I'm standing there, you know, I came from work, so I was pretty business attire. And this older veteran, you know, he had his hat on all his, you know, glory to be God, you know, I'm a veteran, and he goes to me, hey, sweetheart, he goes, why don't you come sit on my lap, I'll tell you some stories. I went up really close to him right in his ear, and I said, “Look M-Fer,” I go, “I'll sit on your lap, and I'm going to tell you some stories and you're not gonna freaking like them.” And I said, more colorful than that. But it's like, they automatically assume that I'm there for other reasons. I'm like, I'm a veteran, too. You know what I mean? Don't talk to me that way. Don't disrespect me that way. So again, we have to deal with that afterwards. And you know, and again, the assault has taken place at the VA. But again, the lack of gender specific healthcare, the lack of I mean, in New Jersey, we don't even have a mammogram machine. We have 27,000 female veterans and one mammogram machine. So those are the issues. Again, we have transition housing, we have a plight of transitioning and homeless veterans, and we only have eight beds, if you transition, and you're a woman, and God forbid you have a child because then you have none. And we have to put you in a homeless shelter. Those are other things that people don't realize it's a gamut of issues when it comes to the women's fight.
Erin: We all talk about male suicide numbers. But look at look at the female, the women's suicide numbers per capita are even larger than what the males are there.
Pamela: And make no mistake about it. Everyone that we work with, has had to face challenges like that. This isn't like a faceless issue. I've been homeless. I've tried to kill myself twice. I've had to go into treatment. And I've had to go into the VA to get my care. And I've had dick pics, airdrop to my phone at the VA I had a guy, another veteran tell me he would fuck the sadness right off of my face. Okay, I've there was an older male veteran who was in line behind me at Starbucks at the VA one time who pushed me. And then when I yelled at him, I was the problem. Right?
Lucy: Wait, there's a Starbucks in the VA. What's that all about?
Pamela: Oh, yeah there is. Yeah. Oh, yeah. In San Francisco. There is West Coast baby. It's the West Coast. I don't even know if that's really… But anyway, um, yeah, I mean, the retaliation and victimization is so much a problem for women veterans, as MST survivors, as we just are naturally selected as the benefactors of so much sexual harassment and gendered discrimination, that it's almost like, we're sitting here and I'm like, Oh, yeah, the VA, that's another part of the fight, too. I keep forgetting
Erin: We can go for another two hours on that.
Pamela: Many things that we that we have to struggle with, as a result of the traumas that we faced in uniform, it goes on for the rest of your life. I mean, these triggers are real. There are people, fellow advocates and fellow survivors and fellow veterans of mine that I'm genuinely concerned about today, right now, who are in this fight with me. And you know, what, in a couple of days, or a couple of months or a couple of years, those hats might change, and they might be worried about me, this is a, this is a fight for the rest of your life. This isn't something this isn't baggage that we get to put down and sit down somewhere. It's something that happened to us that we will live with forever, and the people that we love and care about are experiencing the same thing. So it's wild that we have to keep telling people listen to us because we're dying.
Lucy: And some of us have learned how to play with our demons better than others. You know what I mean? I know that at times, I know Sherry must be like, I can't believe this is like these women are… I love looking at Sherry's face because she's been like, so uh. But, you know, I learned I hid my demons for a very long time and they laid very dormant. And then when they started to creep on in and I saw how bad I really was, I really had to learn how to again, finesse them and work with them, opposed to continue to struggle. And that's something that again, it's difficult and it's a learning process and some of us don’t. Well, some of us don't, you know, others are right in the middle. And some of us just, it just fails us. And then we take turns that we don't want to take. And, again, we have to create these safe spaces in the military, we have to create safe spaces outside of the military, So we could function and we could live and we could grow. Because some of us have really grown. And we really, again, had like the women that are here with me and Lindsay, we really have grown. And still, there's once in a while, like when I wake up, and I'm back to that demon filled Lucy, that just doesn't know how to take my first step out of bed. And those are the things that again, it's a constant, it's a constant day, you don't know what the next day is going to bring. So I kind of started this philosophy of what when I wake up, I put my two feet feet on the ground, I thank, you know, whatever the higher being is that's going to that got me up, I take my deep breath, and I see what the day is going to lead me to. And that's the way I have to function Because again, sometimes I've put my two feet on the ground. And I'm like, crap, I have to deal with this nonsense again. And that's something that it's just an everyday constant cycle. And we just have to try to make it an even playing field, then we have to work at it. And we have to work it all together.
Marissa: Thank you guys all so, so much for being here today. I mean, I learned so much, and I'm so saddened to hear I mean, it's not news to me that this happens, but like to hear people's stories is still so heart-wrenching. And you guys are doing such an amazing thing by advocating for survivors and, you know, fighting for safety for everyone. I mean, it's ridiculous that in 2020, we're still having this conversation. But it's a conversation that needs to be had. And like I literally could not be more honored to be surrounded by you guys. And I'm really grateful that you came on the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast today and wanted to talk about this and continue to fight for it. And I'm happy to help in any way that I can. I know I have a bunch of the Instagram handles and Facebook links. But if there's anything else that you guys want to share any thing that you have that can help other people get involved in the fight and know what you need and ask for what you need and stop doing these like dumb push ups and ruck marches. And I mean, ruck marches are great, but like swimming three miles for somebody else’s sanity, that doesn't make sense. You're right. But that's right now civilians like that's all we have. We're like grasping at straws to help. We have no direction. So if you guys have insight and links to post and ways for us to get involved, like I know I want to be involved.
Lucy: Like I'll challenge let's say this, I'll challenge any civilian, to go onto the road with me next I was supposed to do, I was supposed to do Chicago, New York City this year. So I'll take a civilian. Do the Chicago Marathon with me do York City with me matched the donation. And if you want to help me, then run alongside me and be my buddy. That's how you should help a veteran. So if you wanted to do that, you want to take that challenge next year 2021. I'm doing Chicago and New York City matched a donation that I'm making two TAPS to the tragedy system program for survivors. Match a donation that I'm making run alongside me and then you will help that veteran because you know what you'll be supporting me. So I take up on anybody who's listening to this and wants to do that with me.
Marissa: So I'm in because now that's my motivation. I'm in we just have to stay in contact and if anyone else wants to join me and watch me cry after running for more than ten feet.
Pamela: I got bad knees from the military man. My knees are shot and I wish I could run and that's why when Lucy said I probably pass out she was hella right? Like, dude, no, I'll dance. That's my exercise. But anyway, run with Lucy so I can sit at home and rest which I also deserve. Okay.
Sherry: That’s a Hashtag right there. #RunWithLucyForVeterans
Lucy: Again, find, find a survivor that's using that run for a survival tactic. That's what I do. That's part of my mantra. That's part of what my daily life is, and I do my running. So again, if you want to do that, hey, I'll be more for it and run alongside me. Give me that support. Tell me that you're there for me. Not telling me that I'm doing something. And then Who is it? Who are you benefiting? Who's the benefactor of that and that's What I challenge you to do?
Marissa: Thank you guys. I mean, I'm, like I said, I'm so grateful that you were all here today and wanted to talk to me and I want to help in any way I can. And I'm sure a lot of other people that are listening do too. So I'll post all the links and everything that you guys send me. And don't forget for everyone listening to call your Congress, people and advocate for MST Survivors, MST Survivor, MST, because that's the most important thing is to change the policies and to make it safe for everyone. They're fighting for our freedom. So why are we not fighting for theirs? It just doesn't make sense. So thank you guys again, and I'm sure that we will all be talking again very soon.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of Millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today I have on my very amazing friend Ally Valdez. Ally is a 23-year-old Brooklynite working for child preventative welfare. She's a champion and an advocate for other survivors. We go way back to 2016. When I interviewed her for my first book, Breaking Through the Silence: The Journey to Surviving Sexual Assault, I adore her spunk and her passion for helping other survivors find their voices and overcome their trauma. Welcome, Ally. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited that you're here today.
Ally: Thank you so much for having me. This is the best way to spend my Tuesday, honestly.
Marissa: I'm so happy to hear that. Well, let's get started. So, if you don't mind, tell us your truth.
Ally: Okay, yeah. So, I was a freshman in college. I was only it was like October; freshmen start like end of August. So, I was a baby. And when it happened, I was hanging out with some friends. I met this guy or he slid into my DMs on Facebook, and wanted to hang out. And I was like, okay, and he was like, Oh, you want to smoke? And I was like, Sure. So, my friends and I, we went to my room with this stranger who was like a senior. So, we thought we were so cool. Or at least I did. And he kept turning his back whenever he would pack whatever we were smoking out of. And, you know, he kept mentioning now he had two different types. My friends got really sick. And started tripping like bad. They left, because they lived like a few dorms down. And then he, you know, I lay down, I kept telling him like, I'm not down to hook up. That's not me. And he put on this trippy music and I kept like, getting like, I felt like I was like, you know, when you're getting hypnotized, and you go deeper and deeper and deeper. That's how I felt to the point where I wasn't cognizant of much. He started touching me, I was like, No, no, absolutely not. My instinct, because I'm a creature of routine was like, Okay, I'm going to go turn the lights off and get my PJs on at 3am. And I did and I texted my friend and I told her, I was freaked out. I got back in bed, I would get up to text her get back in bed. I would get up to text her. And she kept asking me if I want help and I was like, No, I got this. Then I don't know how much time passed. I blacked out for a little bit. And he was on top of me, and I was freaking out.
So, when you're being assaulted, your lady parts are absolutely like, you know, yes, because it's physiology. But in my head, I was vocalizing like, No, no. I have a childhood trauma of issues with my dad. So, I was like, screaming Dad stop. And he took that as like, let's go! I don't remember how much time passed in between those. I took a Snapchat and was like, I don't want this but like a bunch of negative emojis. I specifically remember I used a hammer. I looked at a hammer the same way again. And then I woke up the next morning 6am and saw putting on his pants and dipping and I passed out didn't go to my math class. That day, I went to a therapy session by texting my friend that like something happened last night. Can we meet up? And we did and she walked me to my therapist appointment told my therapist at school what happened they sent a cab for me to go to the hospital. I went to the hospital. I didn't know what to do. So, I walked into the ER, I was like I was raped. And they were like what? And I was like I was right. And it first was really weird because they had to like beg the SANE nurse to help because I told them that I’d been high and I begged her. I went on the phone with her and I pled for her they called an advocate for me and she played with her. They did the examination and an attorney came over and she handed me her car and she's like, come tomorrow and I was like Kay, got it. That night I went back to school. All my friends are obviously hovering. And I just kind of shut myself out because I was like, what happened? I called my mom actually and asked her to Skype with me. And I told her it was important. And she was like, well, you should have been more careful. And I was like, I've never been so pissed at her before. This is like the breaking point for me. The day after I went to the prosecutor's office in Bergen County and I told them what happened. I told a male cop and a woman prosecutor what happened. They were like, oh, we're going to deliberate. I literally spat out every detail I could remember because I didn't remember anything. So, I was like giving details about my past trauma. I was like literally giving anything I could because I was in a state of shock. They deliberated came back and they told me that I had serious issues. Evidently, I'd clearly been promiscuous in the past. I should go get therapy I left the room. I ran out of the building and I let out, like it gives me chills thinking about like the most blood curdling scream I think I ever did. I go back to the school told them about it. They took this happened in October, like right before hallway and they waited until April to have a hearing, I finally had my hearing and I was like pressing them all those months in between I almost transferred. And they just charged him for pot use. And that's it. He brought an attorney with him which I was like, that had a girl heated! And then after that I kind of had a mental breakdown. And I was in a relationship after it happened. And him and I had gotten this huge fight, and I was having a very severe PTSD reaction one night in May, right before finals. At that point, I had like, cut off all my friends I was depressed. I was getting perfect grades. But otherwise, I was like on the struggle bus. The only thing positive was like my sorority. And I was like, clinging to that. And then that night, I was having that bad reaction. I swiped at my boyfriend because he came too close to me. I didn't touch him. I just swiped to him. He called public safety. And he was like, I'm worried about her. And I wouldn’t let him leave the room because him and I were fighting. And he said, the police came and they're like, Oh, it's kidnapping. You assaulted him? And I was like, no. And then public safety came and got me that morning kicked me off campus. They said I couldn't go back to campus unless I got like a full mental health paperwork, basically, like 50 pages of like evaluations, which made it impossible. So, I ended up transferring and yeah. It's been five years this year. So, the statute of limitations is almost up. I still haven't gotten my sheets back and they were really nice sheets. So, I think about them all the time. And yeah, that's kind of it. After when I was in college, I already had mental health issues but this, like exacerbated them to the point where it was so severe. I was hospitalized my junior year because of it. Because I just kept pushing it and pushing it and pushing it back and being busy because being a workaholic is like my coping thing. And it got to the point where it just became an issue. And then yeah, I finished college on time. Ironically, I didn't get to walk. But I finished in August. So, I was so class to 2019. And yeah, now I'm in Brooklyn,
Marissa: Thank you for sharing all of that. I think that your openness and your experience is really, really helpful for a lot of people. I think that it's eye opening to see and to hear how poorly schools handle sexual assault, specifically colleges handle sexual assault. And I don't mean to make this political. But you know, Title IX was put in place to prevent and protect survivors. To prevent sexual assault, and protect students who have been assaulted. And it's clear that that was very overlooked. And it was swept under the rug as his sexual assault all over the place.
Ally: Yeah. And what's funny is I had a really good relationship with Title IX Coordinator after it happened. And I think about that regularly I remember when I transferred emailing her and was like, I need like, what just happened basically, and I didn't get much back. And also the school I went to Ramapo College in New Jersey, had a nickname before I came as Rape-o-Po. When I was there, especially as a freshman, we would get these notifications that public safety had like apprehended someone for like, sexual assault, or whatever. And we got so many my first semester there. It was like, every day something happened. And like, it was always in the freshman dorms, for the most part. And it's kind of like hindsight, you know? Like, if I knew them. Well, you know, now I think I would have been a little more obnoxiously loud about it. If I know my rights and felt more empowered. But I didn't have resources. I didn't know anyone who had happened to until a little bit after it happened. And then when I transferred, I actually met a couple people at my new school who had gone through a similar experience. It was like eye opening. I was like, shook. I was like, this isn't just a me thing. It's something I think about a lot. My little sister is going to be a junior in college. And when she went to college, I bugged out. I was like, absolutely not like you can stay home. And she was like, absolutely not and that was like then you could tell everyone what I went through. You're smart. So, she definitely took it to heart and she told all her friends and now she's in a sorority. So, I told her whoever she needs to tell. Just do it. I'm not completely healed from it, I realized recently that the statute limitations were going to be up I think it was a few like a month or two ago. I thought about like hard and I freaked out for a second.
Marissa: Did you ever make a report? Or is there like an investigation going on about it?
Ally: No. So when I went to the police, they said that they wouldn’t and investigate it. The school didn't investigate it. And I didn't want to hire a lawyer because when people hear mental illness, there's a stigma. Just like when people find that we make assumptions. And for me, it's genetic, and that will sometimes overlook isolated incidences that have happened. They're going to think of that first before they think of who did the thing. And with mental illness. I mean, you can see it. I've like gotten brain scans done, because I'm annoying like that. But you can't, it's not tangible. I can't like hold it. So, they say here, like, Oh, she has a DSM diagnosis, they're going to see that first and then be like, what if she made the whole thing up, which makes me so angry, because if I wanted to make this up, I think I would have thought of a way better, way more Lifetime Movie story. Like, if I want to make this up, I would have gotten like, done some research. You know, like how to been like a way more attractive guy, to be honest. But you can't make this kind of stuff up.
Marissa: Right, I think you're completely spot on, especially in the mental illness area. I mean, people immediately downplay the validity of anything that someone with mental illness says, even if it's unconscious, it's just like, ingrained in us. And that needs to change. Because people with mental illness are actually way more susceptible to being abused for that exact reason. People target mentally ill or vulnerable people, because they know they are more likely to get away with it. And I mean, 98% of people who are convicted of a sexual assault crime, don't spend a single day in jail anyways. All it is, is finding and targeting the vulnerable people knowing in their hearts, that they'll be fine, like the perpetrators will be fine.
Ally: Absolutely. And I think that we also have to talk about the fact that it's not just people with mental illness, it's women, or the LGBTQ+ community, of women of color, trans women of color are statistically so much more likely to experience any type of abuse or sexual violence because of their gender, and because of their status. And that for me, we cannot talk about stigmatization without talking about uncontrollable factors. But just talking about race and color, minority women, I forget the exact number but are much more likely to be victims of assault. And for me, mental illness and skin color, It's not the same. But when people again, they do target more vulnerable populations, because if I had told my story, and a woman of color, I told the same story, I bet my bottom dollar with a woman of color probably wouldn't have gotten a chance to even talk to the cop. And that has to be acknowledged because my privilege is in this situation. I have had the opportunity to go report it and be taken seriously. But I can't say that some people would have that for me just makes me even more mad.
Marissa: Oh, yeah, completely. They did a studying across a couple colleges. I don't remember exactly which colleges. They had two women, a person of color and a white woman tell a very similar story about sexual assault. And the majority of people believed the white woman's story. And the majority, I don't remember the percentage, I think it was like 80% of the participants believe that the person of color was lying. It was just disgusting.
Ally: Rape doesn't discriminate. It doesn't. It can happen to literally anyone. It's happened to I know older adults. I know guys. It doesn't discriminate, but people and service providers and authorities do. Part of the reason I ran away to Brooklyn, and because New Jersey just had a history with me that wasn't fully resolved. And now when I go home, I still think about those traumas. I take the train I think about you know, like, well, everything and moving to Brooklyn. I don't recommend anyone run away from their problems. Um, but it definitely helped. It definitely put me away from the situation to get more perspective on it because I'm not so like, this is at my mom's house where I had a fight with her after it happened. This is the train that I cried on when I went home that day. Everything here is fresh, and…
Marissa: Untainted, right, yeah. Which I actually tend to think can be a really therapeutic and good thing. After my abuse. I literally packed up two duffel bags and moved to Israel for a year. So, I don't particularly think escapism is such a terrible move if it works for you. You have to give yourself space and time to re-evaluate and to reconnect and learn to love yourself again, after abuse. And I needed to leave the continent. I was in a different time zone. Like I was very far away, but it gave me a full year to find myself again to learn who I was to rewire my brain and learn what love really meant. And for you, it was an opportunity for you to rebuild yourself. To reconnect the dots, and find out something that you really wanted to do and something that gave you life again and gave you passion.
Ally: Yeah, so I'm 23. I don't have kids. I don't have a cat, right now. So, I'm kind of, I'm not responsible to anyone but myself. I always say like myself, my mom and God, but not even really my mom anymore. And my career is my biggest focus right now because these kids and these parents that I work with are, they don't realize how much they helped me. When I was working for the foster care agency, I was going through it. Like I was new to the city, I didn't know anyone, I had these kids, and they were my friends. Like, let's be real They were my pals. And they made it for me, you know, like that. And the parents having conversations with them. I had one client, she, I'll never forget her. We had the same initials. So, I was like, this is meant to be we're meant to be like BFFs. Her and I were talking and she said to me, like, Oh, you can't make me go to therapy. But I was like, Listen, I go. Literally Three weeks later, she went. And then I had another little girl who was involved in a sexual violence case and she I disclosed to her that something similar had happened to me what but when I was a lot older. I had been working with this girl for about six months, a little over six months. And her energy shifted and it took about one thing for me to say for her to like, let that… I felt it like we were on zoom, obviously… But I felt it lower And I realized that I'm not going to disclose everything to every client. But you know, parents, I'm 23 years old, I'm not a parent. So, your parents are like, what's your basis? And I'm like, less, and no one goes into social work, because they've had an easy life. That's like, I'm getting that tattooed across my forehead.
Marissa: I wouldn't recommend that. No, but it's true. People ask me all the time. You know, I tell them what I do and about my coaching and stuff. And they said, you know, oh, well, how'd you get into that? And I just give them a look. I mean, you know how I got into this. Everybody who does social work. Who does this work. It's because we experienced it, and we've overcome it. And we know how much it hurts. So we want to help.
Ally: Absolutely. And I think that this is the best way for me to heal. Because I have a severe history of trauma. But with that comes a severe history of avoiding my issues and watching Netflix to cope. But I realized that's not effective at all. So my time with my clients, I really make sure that if I'm having a bad day, or I'm like really stuck on what happened or anything that's happened, I throw myself into my work. I'm like, let's get this done. And I do and I immediately come out of that day feeling accomplished. Put a lot of money in the karma bank. And I feel like I did a service to others when a service wasn't done to me. I wasn't given a fair shot when it happened. I still don't think it was fair. But if I can do the work that I would have wished was done for me. I think that for me makes it a little bit worth it.
Marissa: I agree. And I think that now that people are speaking out about their abuse and feeling more supported and empowered, and knowing what we didn't have, it makes us want to change the world more. I mean, why else would we be working so hard to create programs and a world of speaking out, you know. Of, I Am Vanessa Guillen, of all of these things, these programs, these hashtags are all coming out now. It's because we went through it and the people who went through it and felt silenced, hated it, and they hated themselves. And we learned to hate people and, hold and bottle up these emotions that are so toxic. That's enough. I know for myself; I never want another person to go through what I went through and not have a place to turn.
Ally: Right. I 100% agree with you. And I think that also a lot of it has to do with, I reconnected with that ex boyfriend that I was with recently. And I talked to him about it and it was a lot of forgiveness too. And I think that having the ability to give people a safe space, but also forgive. I could harbor a lot but the path of forgiveness has been a lot too because he actually showed up on my Tinder when I was home once and I was like Oh no. And I screen shotted it and sent it to everyone I know. And you know, I look for him in crowds, but I've had to learn to forgive that because I'm like if I see him on the Myrtle-Wycoff subway, what am I really going to do? Forgiveness and giving people a safe space the other day I told you, you Went on Facebook, I was out at Trader Joe's, um, and I came back I was going to take the bus home and this guy in a wheelchair was being so creepy to this young woman. She couldn't have been any older than me. He was a cute old man at first and it was he opened his mouth and I was like, Oh, no. So, I waited. He was being really creepy. Not everyone has that hyper-vigilance with them. So, I went over to her and I was like, Listen, I'm just going to hang out with you until your bus comes. And the guy pepper sprays me on the side of the face. And he likes wheels off and was like cursing at me. And I was like, Oh, okay. But I felt good. Like it hurt. Like, often felt like I stuck my face to a pan, but it felt good. And that girl was like, so grateful And no one around, said anything did anything. The woman that was like watching. She was homeless. She was like, you better not come to these parts again. I was like, this is my favorite Trader Joe's. And I was like, I'm not just going to let this happen. So, there I was like, my makeup was melting off, and I sat on the bus and I went home. I called like my mom; I called all my friends. And I was talking to them. I was like, do you do the same thing? One. And are you do you experience that hyper vigilance, too? Because New York is a different vibe than jersey? I think any big city is New York, I literally am in my Sunday sweats. No makeup, hair in a bun looking like a Sewer Ogre and I get catcalled, and followed home. People will drive Follow me on their cars. I asked my friend; I was like this has happened to you. And do you do anything about it? And do you always freak out? Because I realized it's not exclusively the catcallers anymore. It's men who sit next to me on the subway. It's like if someone is it, like someone was in the elevator with me at Target, and I clenched up. It was a reaction. And I realized that that was reaction to trauma. What my point is, I'm not completely over it. Because now at night before I go to bed, I get up to pee. I get up out of bed at least five times, just like I did that night and I haven't stopped the last five years. I've literally had to take like sedatives and like OCD medication to like, make it stop. So, I could just like, go to bed, like a normal person. Some other things I still, you know, it's a hyper vigilance. It's constantly thinking I'm going to see this guy in crowds. People get too close to me It's not fun. If I'm like walking down the street, I automatically have my headphones lowered because I know one that there's going to be cat collars and chew that there's a high chance that I'll be falling home. It's been five years and I thought that it would be completely over it by now. Oh, you're going to be cool in five years, like, you're going to be fine. You're going to be hot, skinny and living it and I was like, Okay, well, I'm still not over it. So, it's not a linear process.
Marissa: What do you do that helps you in comments of feeling triggered or feeling like a PTSD flare up? Do you use music and write like, what do you do?
Ally: So, I do several things. I have a lot of dance parties and a lot of like rap battles with myself. I'm not joking earlier today; I found this song Girls From the Hood by Megan Thee Stallion. And I was like, this is my song. So I like sat down and memorized it because I was so anxious about just like life. I learned to cook I'm not good at it. Last night, I was cooking some potatoes And I was like thinking about it And I was like really touching those potatoes, who is boss And I also talk about it. You know, if someone asked me why I'm anxious, I'm like, do you mind if I tell you a story? And I tell them about it. And I make it known. If I have a client that is a sex abuse case, I try to let my supervisor know that hey, there are times I might get triggered. All Child Welfare cases are relatively triggering for me but sex abuse cases now hit. They're like, specifically in my niche. I always let my supervisor know, there might there might come a time where I’m bugging out. One day I was working I was testifying after court. And I came back to the agency and I just sat at my desk and stress ate like three things of McDonald’s fries, and cried. And my supervisor was like, are you okay? I'm like, you know, the thing I just did and she was like, Okay, well, stress eat your fries. And that's kind of my coping. But for others, as a professional, I really recommend talking to someone about it. Trauma comes out in different ways; trauma can come out in physical symptoms. So, you could be shaking. You could talk a lot, you could have a high heart rate, you could be constantly dehydrated. Trauma comes out somatically. Trauma comes out emotionally and mentally. So, I recommend talking about it. If you feel like for me sleeping is the worst. So, I take medication for it, if that's necessary. I also recommend finding support and others because the minute I found that peer that I discussed earlier, she helped me through it. And then her rapist ended up passing away. So, he passed away like right before something where like a legal battle was about to happen. So, I helped her, she helped me. And people I know who went through it, it's kind of like a, an ally-ship, if you will, as long as you're not a danger to yourself or others, please do what you got to do. And if you are, please contact 911 or Crisis Text Line or so many resources.
Marissa: You can’t even express verbally, what truly happens to you, but it changes you. And you're living in your crime scene forever. And the way that a crime scene for a murder, that room is tainted and, it's the same thing with your body. Like it's a complete violation of your sense of self; of your privacy; of your personal space; of your mind. I mean, you are totally changed.
Ally: If you want to go into like nerdy stuff, your brain chemistry changes too. Your brain literally rewires itself, your brain chemistry gets off put because you're trying to re trying to overcome for like the whole trauma of it and the shock. So, you go through that your cortisone levels change, and your brain literally rewires itself to adapt to this new version of you. And that happens with any trauma. And that's why trauma-care is so important because a lot of people don't realize that. You go through a complete rewiring. And then if you have injuries from it, you're going to have scars. So, your body chemistry and your physiology changes when that happens. So that's why I think it's so important that you see a provider afterwards. I highly recommend it because you have to get used to the new you, and you might as well have someone by your side to help you.
Marissa: Thank you for sharing all of that. Thank you so much for being here and for using your voice and your experience to help other people overcome their trauma. You are the best and I adore you.
Ally: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse, the podcast. Today, I'm so excited for my friend and this like awesome local musician Matt Erickson to join me. I really wanted to talk about how the word sensitive is a very effeminate word in society. And I personally think that that's bullshit. I think that it does not allow people that are masculine to express themselves, it really stops them from being able to do that. And I wanted to address that with none other than my awesome friend who is perfect to talk about this with. He is a local musician. He plays guitar for Oppressed Affliction. And you can find him on Instagram and Spotify. I'll put the links in the description. Welcome on Matt. I'm so excited. This is so far overdue.
Matt: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. I'm so excited to do this for like, how many months have we've been talking about this? I think it's been at least four.
Marissa: I've been doing it. I've been doing this podcast since January. And I think you were like the second person I talked to so probably…
Matt: There we go.
Marissa: Thank you so much. I'm excited to talk to you about this. So I grew up female, and I am a heterosexual cisgender female woman. So I've never been told that I'm not allowed to feel what I'm feeling. Have you as a male growing up male, had that experience?
Matt: Oh, 100%. And so really quick, kind of the whole thing. I'll just get what I am out there right on the table. And this is something that 10 years ago, I almost wouldn't have even thought to say publicly, but I am a bisexual cis-gendered male. I grew up very much around my mom and my sister, and my sister's friends. And I was always friends with girls, seemed to get along a lot better with them growing up. Really the only male figure I had a lot in my life was my father. So luckily, I think at some point, in that small group, everyone was like, "Oh, you can feel what you feel you can be sensitive, it's good to be sensitive.” But somewhere along the line, I started seeing it a little bit more, like very subtle imagery, especially in you know, the media, and in movies and everything that like men aren't supposed to have feelings. You were all supposed to bottle it up. And then one day I'll die. Stealing that a little bit from John Mulaney. But I was told that a few times, like especially when I started crying, sometimes people be like, Oh, come on, man. Suck it up. Suck it up. Don't cry. Don't do that don't show emotion. Like, in order to be a man in order to be respected, you shouldn't cry like that. You shouldn't cry in public. There were actually a lot of times where I remember growing up where I would cry in the middle of class. Literally, while someone's trying to teach but I was getting bullied and I was, you know, sob story, sob story, sob story. I would be getting bullied in the middle of class, I would start crying about it. And sometimes even my friends in the class would be like, “Dude, you're not supposed to cry, you're a boy. Don't cry in the middle of class. Don't do this. Don't show your emotions.” I used to be able to cry easier than I do now. But I think it has affected me a lot. Looking back at it.
Marissa: That makes total sense. It affects your ability to allow yourself to feel and process emotions. When you're told over and over again, real men don't cry. Real men don't cry, be a big boy. You know. Boys don't cry. Boys don't get sad, they get angry. And I think that that process is different. It disallows you from really understanding your emotional capacity. And it manifests into just rage. So I think that's why and thank you for disclosing, you know, your sexual identity, I really appreciate that.
Matt: If I may, like the whole sensitivity thing. That was a whole other reason, though, that I would even keep… it was even just, you know, the social disregard for being even bisexual, or for being gay or LGBTQ. Like, God bless that, well, whatever, bless whatever bless that for. We can get into that conversation a whole other time. But, but bless the fact that I can come out and say that without you know, you know… a lot of people are a lot more confident than I am and their sexuality and being able to say that. Again, as I said, 10 years ago, I wouldn't be able to say that and I think a big part of that was kind of like an effeminate trade that it was a sensitive trait that it was this, that or the other thing. And I was almost embarrassed about it to the point where only a few people knew about my sexuality at the time. And I was keeping something that was so important to my identity so far under wraps that I would literally only tell my closest friends. Luckily, in the past five or six years or so I've grown more comfortable in that fact. I've been able to express it to those that I love. And as recently as I think, it was last year was the first time I made a public post about it to Facebook. And honestly, the reaction to that was overwhelming. And I mean, it that was actually a moment where I started, I was at a show, and I was about to get up and play. And my cousin had called me and I'll never forget this. He saw that I had come out and he can he said, what you did, takes a lot of courage. So thank you for that. I know this is kind of a little off topic. But I feel like it is an important story to still talk about sensitivity and being able to be comfortable in your own skin. Because he calls me and I started I actually started crying like in the middle of this bar right before I was supposed to play a metal show, because it meant the world to me that someone of my family was just like, “Dude, that's so cool. Thank you for that. I had no idea.”
Marissa: So it's really beautiful.
Matt: Thinking about it tears me up a little bit. And the other thing was, I didn't know how my parents would react and they've come around, and they've and they still love and accept me. And my dad especially, I didn't know how he would take it. But like when I did come out. He called me a few days later, because actually, I hadn't seen him when he found out. He called me a few days later and said, I'd love you no matter what. And it was it was one of those rare moments that like I, feel like you know, my dad sometimes falls into that sensitivity trap that he like I've seen it, he tries to be very strong, he tries to be very stoic about a lot of things. So it's kind of rare to see him show emotion. Luckily, as his kid, he shows it a little more towards me. So he said, I love you no matter what, and I accept you. And that was another time where I had like I was in the middle school. In college, I almost broke down. I’m someone that wears my emotions on my sleeve. So even if I'm not crying, you can see what I'm feeling. And that does a lot of times when the sadness is there does kind of convert physically to rage because I can't express it at that moment. I've been taught still by the society at large that, you know, man up, sack up, take life as it is. And I feel that might actually be a big reason that I kind of suffer from a lot of anxiety, because there's like these two parts of me fighting of express every emotion, but also don't.
Marissa: I think that's a big reason why male survivors have a very difficult time coming forward. And I know that you've disclosed to me outside of this, that you have not experienced significant sexual harassment or assault or abuse or anything, which is phenomenal. And I'm obviously very happy that that has not happened to you. But for the people that it has, those same emotions, anxiety and holding it in, and manifesting into rage. Those are all after-effects of abuse and not being equipped with the tools or resources to process that. And then on top of that being told to sack up or be a man or men don't cry or you calling them a pansy. It really plays a huge role in the victimization and low-reported numbers of male survivors.
Matt: Oh, absolutely. And, and it's funny that you brought up like the processing and everything. Like I kind of want to dissect a few things, because I'm gonna say some things that might also be a little hypocritical. I just, I'd rather be fully honest. So first and foremost, I do want to touch on the processes. I do remember growing up, I think my generation has made it so much more acceptable to be a sensitive, but being an artist. I think even being a musician, you're supposed to bare your soul, you're supposed to bury your emotions. So the fact that everyone wants to be an artist is such an important thing. And it's so important to make sure that you can express yourself. Now that being said, I can actually speak very directly to this sometimes when you're a metal head. It's supposed to come out as rage. You're not supposed to necessarily show crying or feelings like that because you're supposed to be this big badass Rockstar. No. Fuck that man. Fuck that. I remember one of the times that I respected my favorite guitarists the most, Sinister Gates from Avenged Sevenfold. The time I respected him the most was when I saw after the drummer passed, they played a song that the drummer wrote. Rest in peace, Jimmy, but I saw a video of him onstage in front of 14,000 people. He had to kind of look away, start crying. And you could just see it in him that like, I mean, he was breaking down in front of 14,000 people and I thought it was the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. So the whole thing as well like. All these older metal heads are like suck up Don't be a pussy, it is prevalent. And I will admit, sometimes it takes a toll on me. And sometimes it makes me almost feel like an imposter, it also starts to bring on that imposter syndrome of, Oh, I'm not tough enough to be this metal guy. I'm not tough enough to be this musician, badass. But then I'm like, wait a minute. The whole reason I got into it was to express myself fuck that I'm gonna feel the way I feel and hopefully be able to write about it.
Marissa: But as a musician and an artist, especially in the scene that you're in the metal scene, how do you find that balance between being the tough screaming rage monster that, you know Avenged Sevenfold, and Atreyu, and all those big metal bands, like they manifest their rage into their music, versus the sensitivity that it also takes to be an artist and be able to wear your heart on your sleeve? How do you find that balance?
Matt: So a lot of times the macho-man persona, it's almost like a face to wear. And part of that, I'll straight up admit is kind of for marketing reasons, like I can portray myself as whoever I want to be on Instagram and Facebook, I can show you at my best all the time, and I want to show my best. I really do. And the thing that I think I have more respect for when I see, you know, guys like Jared Dines admit to things like this, is when they're able to be vulnerable and say, I am sensitive. I am nervous. I am a wreck. Like when these big names can say that I think the balance is still being able to show yourself and showing it through your music. But also still being able to be real with your followers and with your friends and family. And that's all I ever try to be. And it's bullshit to ever try and market yourself as someone else. And on the same course, this is something though that I do struggle with. Because of that pressure to be that person sometimes will be joking around. And I'll say something that I'll catch myself as being toxic masculinity. I think it's all about context. And sometimes I use that toxic masculinity to get a few cheap laughs. And it sounds horrible to say, but sometimes it happens. But I never want people to ever think that they can't go to their closest friend. They can't come to me. That they can't go to their family. They should have someone to go to. And if any of my friends or family are listening, I hope they know that they can do that for me.
Marissa: There are a couple things that you said that I want to kind of touch back on. And I'm trying to scribble notes as you're talking because you say so many great things. So one thing that you said I want to address is that there's beauty and vulnerability. As a person who has a fan base and who has a presence in a platform, being able to express yourself. It humanizes you. When you express yourself as a person, as a human being that has emotions and baggage and bad days. I think it makes you relatable to people. And I think that's why we like who we like.
Matt: Oh 100% and that's again, why I'm so drawn to those people that make like, you know, the My Chemical Romances of the world. Panic At The Disco’s. So raw and so emotional that you can feel their pain, you know, when you can bare your soul like that in your art that is still just as humanizing is just making a social media post. Boys from a young age are taught that ballet, that music, that poetry. All these things are girly. You're supposed to play sports, and you're supposed to play basketball and you're supposed to want to blow shit up. And don't get me wrong I did all that stuff, too, because it's fun. I was very lucky that I had parents that supported my music from a young age. They knew that playing music was going to be important for me. That being said, I do remember kind of trying to be steered away from the violin, because it was less masculine. And it was more that it was boring. But I look back at that and thinking like, wait a minute, no, but the other thing was I had wanted to play trumpet since I was four. So like, they were just trying to steer me back to that. But I do remember though a lot of boys that started on clarinet, on flute, on violin, on all these things. They were kind of poked and prodded on a little bit. And luckily, as the years went by, I noticed that go away. But that is something that is so systemically wrong with our society. That we want to push people to do more of the arts, but at the same time, we have kids, we have adults, we have certain people in our lives that say no, the arts are not for boys.
Marissa: Boys should be collecting bugs and playing with GI Joe. And anything outside of that is not, it's not a boy activity. And that's so inherently, first of all, it's inherently incorrect. Also just it's such a horrible baseline to create for somebody because those are resources and tools to help get over emotional trauma.
Matt: Exactly, I mean, I used music all through my years from when I found it. I kind of had a rebirth in middle school where I didn't like music for a while, it was boring. But then like seventh grade, something switched. And I started feeling more, I started listening more, I started understanding more about myself. And I was tormented all the time from elementary school through the later I'm sorry, the early parts of high school, people did not like me. They thought I was a nerd. They thought I was weird. I was picked on relentlessly. And sometimes, you know, it got the better of me. But I would go home and I would practice trumpet; I would practice guitar. So in my experience, the arts have done nothing but help. The other thing is, is that I'm also trying to make my art a career. So now, the whole, your own worst critic comes into play, but then I can't express myself in any other way. So then it's kind of this, this sort of cycle of, I feel like I can't express myself, but what I need to express myself with feels like it's not good enough. And all this stupid stuff that like turns into just depression, and depression, naps.
Marissa: It's a vicious cycle. You want to express yourself to make your music as good as it possibly can. But you've been wired to not express yourself. And that's frustrating, you know. And that's why so many people have such severe anger problems. Because men specifically have been trained not to feel. If you're feeling like crying, you're not masculine enough. I want to know, from your opinion, where do we start to change it? Because there's a clear generational problem. Us in our age group. And I want to say maybe the age group above us and below us are kind of caught in this pickle between our parents were raised in a very, “Boys will be boys, and men are strong. And women are meek,” kind of mindset. And they're stuck there. You know, I don't know if we're going to be able to change that. And the people younger than us are doing such a phenomenal job about being inclusive and accepting. And so where do we start?
Matt: I don't want to say where we start. But I want to say where we can continue, where we can continue that is almost making sure that we take those lessons, and we enhance them. And we make sure that people understand that no matter what your race, creed, whatever your sexuality, whatever you are as a person, is accepted. That is first and foremost. And a big part of that, I believe it's also just through education. I think the more you actually educate people, and we improve our educational system, the more we'll actually be able to have an emotional intelligence. People will be able to have different thoughts, and they'll be able to read stories that have more complex emotions, and earlier age. So to sum it up, where we are isn't necessarily in that bad position, it can always be better. And I think that where we can continue is by making sure everyone's included, making sure that everyone is educated, making sure everyone is more cultured than I am. Making sure people understand that it's okay to feel to look for the deeper meaning in the stories. And to also make sure they understand that it's okay to have something that may feel effeminate, but isn't it's just expressing who you are.
Marissa: Things are only feminine and masculine. When we assign a label to it, you know, so instead of saying, “Oh, that's like a girly toy,” why don't we say, “That's a cool toy.” I don't care. They shouldn't be assigned a gender label, because they're things, is a huge important first step. You mentioned something about characters in movies, I want to say that the vast majority still in 2020, the vast majority of the heroes of movies are male, it's usually from a male perspective, not always, but the majority. And nine times out of ten, that male will show anger and not sadness. And will show anger and not fear. And will show frustration and not anguish. So we are characterizing people in the media, and in movies, and in video games, and in music, as macho and angry and aggressive. And the second they show sensitivity, It's usually a character that's if they show weakness or sensitivity it's usually a character that is either a female or homosexual in some way. Has some sort of caveat as to why they're sensitive, because we need it to make them more effeminate in order to show that that's a normal emotion for that character. No men can also be sensitive, that plays a role in males. survivors.
Matt: So really quick one thing I do want to point out the movies thing I 100% agree with. I think that's totally true, the productive, they're predominantly male, they're predominantly cisgendered straight men, that usually express their emotions as anger, and those are going to be the popular movies. Now, one thing I do want to say is, is when you step away from just the movies, and you go to TV shows. I used to write off a couple of these shows, because I thought they were just childish and dumb. But then I actually sat down and watched them, you know, I was so into, like, Family Guy and American dad that I didn't really want to watch any other cartoons anymore. First and foremost, I'm just going to start with a classic SpongeBob. Listen to me, I'm serious. He is this. He is successful at what he does. He loves what he's doing. He has a lot of friends. He's well respected in his community, you might not be like the most masculine person in the world. But at the same time, he still shows emotion. But they don't say whether or not he's masculine or not. They're just portraying him as SpongeBob. And, and he's a guy that has male characteristics and doesn't care. And I think you know, the fact that we grew up with that is incredible. The other thing I want to say though, is I used to sleep on Adventure Time, and Steven Universe. Two shows that the current generation is growing up watching in their very formative years. I watched Adventure Time, from the time I was about 16, till I was about 19. I remember so specifically watching Adventure Time and seeing Finn cry in almost every other episode. But he was the main hero, he was fighting everything. And he was doing so well. They showed his emotion. And I thought that was groundbreaking to make sure that a character that kids could look up to, wasn't just angry all the time. But he was anguished, he showed his tears. And then when I saw Steven Universe, I was even more like holy shit, like, damn. The reason I'm listing to these examples is because I just also want to make sure that if people haven't seen them, that they go and watch them. And they understand that there are characters that are there. I don't disagree that a majority are going to be these people that just show anger and rage. And I think it's an important thing to portray. So to continue, we have to make sure that movies and TV shows aren't just showing the females and the effeminate males as having emotions. But also the more stoic men, pull back the curtain a little bit, make sure they feel something. I think we're on the right track for the next generation. There's always going to be progress to be made. And I think that the groundwork has been laid, I think sometimes we take away a lot of credit, from the boomer generation, I think there were some very deep held beliefs about boys being boys and all that crap. But I do want to still throw them some credit, because we still got a lot of our morals from them. And a lot of them like my parents, especially, I've actually been very open to ideas that I have. And I think they've learned just as much from me, as I have from them. Just learn from each other.
Marissa: And I know that I had a very similar conversation, just this part in a past podcast episode with Rob Crowther, and Risa Pappas. that we are resilient people, like people, humans were resilient. The problem is, we're uncomfortable with change. And I think that's where a lot of the disconnect between the generations comes from, is because you grow up in a society that does things a certain way, and when the next generation comes, and they change that, it makes you uncomfortable. And what we need to do is recognize that change is good, change is progressive, and to roll with the changes. So we can all be on the right side of history. I would really like to see our generation and the generation that are having kids now, create that more open culture of empowering people to feel and process those feelings in a healthy and productive way. And maybe the amount of depression and anxiety and self mutilation and suicide, all of that will subside, because people have healthy coping mechanisms. Like you with music, and me with art and writing. And I would love to see a world where that's encouraged
Matt: When we talk about sports or anything like that being a masculine trait. It is still though a valid process of showing emotion and processing through your emotions. You know, when I was younger, and I would get upset before I knew about music, I would actually go outside and I would shoot basketball.
Marissa: Athleticism and doing activities that are at this exact juncture labeled masculine isn't a bad thing, right? You know, I just I don't want them to be labeled masculine or feminine.
Matt: It's just to make sure that no matter what your coping mechanism for your emotions are, that you don't belittle another's about it. I think that's the big thing. It's calling for equality and making sure that the oppressed don't become the oppressors. If that makes sense. You know, don't shame others for their coping mechanism. But make sure they understand that what you're doing is healthy for what you are, it's being able to identify yourself. It's being able to express yourself, it's being able to find a way to process your sensitivity, and for being able to make sure that you can still feel.
Marissa: And to tie it all full circle. I mean, that's a really good point. Bullies are usually people who have been hurt and don't know how to process what they're feeling; that sadness, so it just becomes anger. But now I want to come back full circle, and talk about how that contributes to men disclosing abuse. Not being able to portray your emotions for fear of backlash. For fear of bullying. For fear of victim blaming. How can we change that?
Matt: I think first and foremost, it's taking away a lot of the stigmas of mental health especially, I think that's first and foremost. I think it's making sure that people need to understand that their mental health needs to come first. The important thing is to never label someone that does that “crazy,” or anything like that, or weak. Probably one of the strongest things you can do is to go to someone mental health, you need to invest in that. That is number one. Number two, is making sure that we never tell survivors that you're a guy, you can't be assaulted in that way. It's so important to understand that sexual harassment and sexual abuse goes both ways. A man can be raped. A man can be abused. A man can have these encounters, part of hyper-masculinity and toxic masculinity is that you should enjoy being touched by a woman. That is such a toxic way of looking at the world. Because then it can lead to so many women that have taken advantage of men get away with it. and then the guy is just stuck there. Anxious and depressed. It's just so unfortunate.
Marissa: Thank you for saying all that I think you're spot on. I can't speak for males. I've never been a male. But from the men I've spoken to and from the people I interviewed for my book Breaking Through the Silence: #MenToo , a lot of those people, maybe they weren't all abused by women, maybe some by other men. But either way, they don't have resources. They're blamed because they should have been stronger and able to overpower the woman. Or their sexuality comes into question or they asked why didn't they like it? Or I mean, it's just it's so silly that we're changing the world after the #MeToo movement. Everything is changing for women. Abusers are starting to be held accountable for hurting women, for sexually assaulting women, for raping and beating women. But men are kind of still out there fending for themselves. And I just don't think that's fair. And that's the inspiration for my book, Breaking Through the Silence: #MenToo , because their voices weren't being heard. I think that we are one survivor community, and everybody should be supported and resources should be available for everyone, not just women.
Matt: I just expect every human being to be held accountable for their actions. I don't think that's too much to ask.
Marissa: I completely agree with that. I don't understand why some people can be tried and hold more value in society than other people. Why some people who are convicted on rape charges will get a day or six months, and other people will get 6 years, 10 years. Isn't it all the same thing? I mean, the FBI qualifies rape as the second most violent crime behind homicide. So why isn't it tried and taken the same seriousness and severity.
Matt: And the thing is, is like making sure that male survivors are able to get their voices out without feeling shame. And the thing that anyone should realize listening to this is that at the end of the day, I think the biggest thing in the world right now, that leads to a lot of our societal issues is a lack of empathy. I think that is the biggest thing. But it's so important to look at the stories of abuse victims. Just because they're not your stereotypical situation that they can't feel. You know, you have to make sure that you understand. You can feel something deep inside your soul that is wrong about the situation. And you can learn to listen to them. But I think some people have become so cynical that they tune out feelings. I think they don't want to feel anymore. So they just, they only care about what they're feeling and they don't care about anyone else.
Marissa: There's definitely more work to do. Is there anything else that you want to talk about that we have not covered?
Matt: It's so important to have a community of humans that care for each other, and to make sure we maintain that social empathy. I think that's the best way to put it. It's like no matter what's wrong with the world at the end of the day, remember that we're all on this pale blue dot together.
Marissa: Thank you so much for everything for talking with me about this and being open and honest, I really appreciate your time and your feedback and your perspective. I think that you're such a smart and grounded individual and I just have so much respect for you. So thank you.
Matt: I really Appreciate that.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent, empathy, social empathy, empath, empathy meaning, empathetic, empathy definition, have empathy, define empathy, being empathetic, cultural empathy, sensitive, what does sensitivity mean, emotional males, what does hypersensitive mean, male emotions psychology, emotionally stunted men, men are more emotional than women, women are more emotional than men, women more emotional than men, what does the word sensitive mean, men’s psychology in love, men have emotions too, men are more emotional, emotionally intelligent men,
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. I have received so much support and positive feedback from people about IAmVanessaGuillen and having military sexual trauma movement, and MST survivor and champions speaking out about their assaults. But what really makes me proud is the amount of love support and encouragement my co-hosts have received from this community and their friends and loved ones. The military, as we've so subtly stated, has a tendency to sweep these assaults under the rug. But enough is enough. And clearly it's time to speak out and change some policies. Today, I'm so honored to bring on Melissa King. She is a marine veteran that served eight years, four active and four in the inactive reserves. She's a badass champion who's speaking out about her abuse, and how the Marines mishandled, didn’t acknowledge and completely ignored it. She's here today to share her story and empower other military sexual assault champions to speak out too. Hey, Melissa, how are you today?
Melissa: I'm pretty good. How are you?
Marissa: Oh, I'm so good. Thank you for being here.
Melissa: You thanks for inviting me. Thanks for asking.
Marissa: So if you wouldn't mind, tell us your story.
Melissa: So I guess my story starts with my recruiter back in 2010. Looking back now, he was a predator. I was 21 when I joined the Marine Corps. And when I was in the cadet program, being poolee before I entered to go into boot camp, and he was a sergeant. And I don't know how our, quote unquote relationship started. But it eventually led to like us being intimate at one point. And I don't know, like, looking back now, I highly, like regret everything that happened. And it was definitely an abuse of power that he pulled. And I know, I wasn't the first. And I know after I left, I definitely was not the last. He like pursued me through things like telling me he would wait for me. And that I was the one for him like little things that women would like to hear from a man but I know had no value and no weight to them. I remember telling my best friend Blake at the time about what was happening and he was upset. And he was mad. But he didn't say anything to anyone. He didn't report it. And I didn't report it. And I think that's sometimes we regret it now, but I think was for the best. I think it would have like destroyed our career before we even started. And then I got to MOS school in 2011. And I was living in the barracks and there was this corporal who was a barracks manager. I later found out that he was from infantry MOS. So I'm from Dispersium, like, I do finance and everything. He was an infantry Marine, but he was I think, such a complete shitbag that they removed him from the unit, just put them in the barracks. And he was in charge of, you know, taking care of rooms management. And I forget how that whole thing started. But I remember he would like text me late at night. He was a corporal and I'm pretty sure he was like, married with a kid. And he would like text me late at night and be like, what are you doing? What are you wearing? There was one day, in February right before the Superbowl, he called me to his office. And I remember I was in my Cami’s. And he's like, leaning back in his chair, and he's just kind of like, I have a proposition for you. Or like I have this bet to make with you. I was like, what's the bet he's like, if my football team wins, you have to give me a lap dance. I was like, a very insecure individual. And I didn't have the confidence or the assertiveness that I have now. So I did like the shy little Haha, like that's cute. If your team wins, you have to come up with something, you know to do for me and I was like, I'll get back to you. But like in that in the office, like he got up and he walked from his chair and he like just came over to me and he was like, touching me like groping me through my cami's. And I was just like, how do I get out of here? Like I have never been good at like the fight. I've always frozen in situations like that. I wish I could fight back or just run but my body doesn't do it. And I remember telling my fellow marine about it. I was like, “Yeah, Hodges just like completely groped me in his office and, you know, made a bet with me that I have to give them a lap dance.” And my friend like laughed in my face about it. Just kind of walked away from me. And it brought me back to a time when I was 16 when I was raped by a friend. And I had told our mutual friend about it. And my mutual friend looked at me and was just like, you can't tell anyone what happened because he doesn't deserve to go to jail. And having my friend laugh at me, after telling him about what the corporal did just built on this foundation that I'm not allowed to voice, what happened to me, I'm not allowed to talk about my struggles. Or, I don't know. And then fast forward to Okinawa in 2011. Later that year, I think I finally made it to PFC. So it was a very slow promotion. There was a sergeant out there that pulled the kind of like the same predatory style that my recruiter had done, I would come into the office and he would like leave little monster energy drinks on my desk. Or he would write cute little notes in my green monster, which is our notebook in the military. Or he would like send me emails, or we worked on the system 32-70 system in the dispersing office, which is where you can pull up all the profiles to pay people. And you can send anonymous messages that aren't traced aren't reported. So he would send me messages on there. And I remember there's two incidences that really freaked me out. There's one where I was standing in the barracks hallway, I was standing with my back, I guess, towards my door, he was standing in the middle of between me and then like my group of friends, and he said something weird. He was like, I can control people's minds. And I was just like, this is a very uncomfortable conversation. He was like I can control the men that are standing on the other side, and they won't cross past me to get to you. And I was like, okay, this is very weird. And in the following days, he would corner me in my barracks room, like, Come into my barracks room ends, it's like for me up against the wall, and like, kiss me and grope me and stuff like that. And I finally had enough of it. So I told my roommate, who then, we told our sergeant, I guess, and brought it up to the chain of command. And I, our Gunny, came up to me one day, and was like, so what do you want to do about this? And I was like, “Well, I don’t know. What are my options?” He's like, “Well, I don't really know. I can move you out of your barracks room that you're now and I can put you on the first floor.” And I asked if my roommate could come with me? And he said, No, I was like, Well, I don't want to be on first floor in a barracks room by myself. Like, that doesn't seem secure. And then I asked him the question, I was, like, "Am I going to get in trouble for what happened?” And he was just like, “I don't know.” So it made me not want to pursue anything anymore. Like, just leave it at that. And after that conversation with him, I just completely spiraled as a person. My foundation, myself was completely diminished. And I just became this person that I just didn't really like. And with my history of like, past sexual abuse, and stuff like that, and then being taken advantage of all the way up until this point. I dissociated a lot From what I was like feeling. I wanted to feel happiness and something positive, but I was just feeling like a lot of pain. And I just became this person I didn't like, and my mindset became, I didn't own my body. That like my body was whoever wanted it. And it just led me down this path of just like being with people I didn't want to be with, but it was better to offer myself or feel like I was offering myself rather than them taking it from me. And my chain of command just didn't understand why I was just so out of control that I wasn't even at my office a year. They just removed me, they kicked me out, they put me on a completely different base in a completely different office. And they're just like, you can stay there like we don't want to deal with you anymore. And I stayed in that other office of the Security Management Office for like a year and I absolutely loved it. I felt at ease. I felt comfortable there because it was just a corporal and another Lance Corporal and myself and a Gunny. And they took care of me there. And then my office fought to have me back and it was just a nightmare. And then I got to Camp Lejeune June in 2013. And I was just a very disgruntled individual. I was belligerent. I didn't care to follow orders, I didn't care to listen my chain of command. I did whatever I wanted, and they still didn't know how to control me or like, why was the way it was. Because no one ever sat down and asked me or like, had the conversation. And then I think like two months before I was getting out, I finally went to mental health. And just like talked about everything,
Marissa: Thank you very much for your honesty, and you're so strong to be able to talk about this. And, I'm looking at you and you have such a straight confident face. And I'm like, in awe of you honestly. You have dealt with so much. And from every step of the way. And I was I was taking notes as fast as I could. It was like so interested in what happened next? I mean, God, could it get worse? And then it did. And so I have a lot of follow up questions, feel free to tell me to shut up, I want to go back to the recruiter. Because I mean, that's horrendous. And actually, I've heard that way, too many times. And the guy who harassed me, after he was in a HHC, in the Army, and then they moved him. After two more reports after me, I was his seventh report. They had two more reports after me. They moved him to recruiting. And I'm like, that is hands down the dumbest move they could possibly do. I mean of all things, why would you put this person who is obviously a predator… I mean, he's got the pattern. He's got the actions, why would you put him in charge of people? So I would love if you would feel comfortable expanding on why you thought that? Why would have ruined your career before it started to have made a report about the sergeant?
Melissa: Like I knew what we were doing and how we were interacting was wrong. And I knew it was wrong because either before or after we had happened, he no longer was my recruiter. There were three of them in the office. There was File Martin, and Arnold and I was under File, when I first got recruited. And I was talking to him. And then it was either immediately before immediately after, he didn't want me as his recruit anymore, or his poolee. So he switched me off to someone else. And looking back now, like that was kind of sketchy. Blake was very mad when I talked to him about it. That's how I also knew something was wrong. And that, like, that things that were happening, were not right. And I didn't have anyone within that office to talk to about it. I don't know if it was a first sergeant or Master Sergeant that like ran that office. But like, there was no one to turn to. Yeah, just that feeling deep down knowing that, like things were wrong, I think is how I knew that it was going to be career ending.
Marissa: I think also, because they have so much control over your career. And the help you get and the contract you get. Like there's just like you said, it's an abuse of power, they have everything to hold over you. Right? And it's, it's a disadvantage to survivors, to not have access to resources, if something were to happen.
Melissa: I always make the twisted comment or the twisted humor comment because I have to laugh at that experience now that like, I didn't get anything out of that experience. Like I could have at least gotten a PFC, you know, meritorious PFC out of that when I went to boot camp. Like I got literally nothing out of it, but like a traumatizing experience.
Marissa: Was there ever any harassment training?
Melissa: Yeah, In Okinawa, and Lejeune, when you're when your stationed in your office, or wherever your unit. You do, you go through like sexual harassment training, you go through suicide training you you have all these annual trainings that you literally show up, don't pay attention too, sign a roster, and then you go back to whatever you're doing. Like no one pays attention to it. No one knows that they're mandatory reporters really. My fellow marine that I told about the sexual harassment laughed in my face, and then went on about his life. He should have done something. I feel like I should have done something more in that situation. And I felt like I was failed in that moment. The Gunny that came up to me and asked me what I wanted to do in Okinawa. That shouldn't have been put on me. He should have known the correct steps to take because he was the one teaching sexual harassment and all these trainings. It boggles me.
Marissa: Yeah, that's disgusting. The person who's supposed to be there to train you. I don't know if he didn't have any idea. Or if he just didn't want to deal with it. I feel like the consensus is generally they just don't want to do the paperwork. Because to them, it's just another set of paperwork that they have to do.
Melissa: Yeah. And I was not well-liked within that Office to begin with. It comes down to I'm not a very good runner. And in the military, at least the Marine Corps, you have to run, like, everywhere, anywhere. So my PT skills automatically made me a shitty marine in their eyes. And I think from there, they just didn't want to help me anymore.
Marissa: Were there any other women in your unit or on the bases with you?
Melissa: Yeah, there was a bunch of women in my office. I don't know if any of them experienced anything. In Okinawa, I don't know if anyone did, but I know in Camp Lejeune, I was sitting with one of my fellow Lance Corporals, and she gets a text message. And it says something like scandalous, like, “Hey sexy, how are you doing,” or whatever. And we didn't know the number. So we went on to Google and Googled the number. And I found out it was literally the Staff Sergeant that was sitting behind her that was like texting her anonymously. And when I found out who it was, I went over to my other Staff Sergeant. I was like, “Hey, we have an issue.” And the Sergeant that was texting her got up and ran away. You know you're doing something wrong and creepy, like you've got caught, now face it.
Marissa: The problem is there's no accountability. So after the Gunny came to you and basically said the balls in your court, what do you want to do? I don't know your options, you're kind of gonna have to do the research yourself. Was there ever an investigation? Or did anyone ever, like touch back and at least check in to see if you were okay?
Melissa: No. I remember sitting in the office and they, all sergeants were like, huddled together doing something and they were all laughing with each other. And I felt disregarded and disrespected in that moment. And I remember talking to my roommate being like, how can they look at him and laugh with him when they know what he's doing? And I guess that comment, got back to my Sergeant that I had initially reported to and she was like, well, he's my fellow NCO. Like, I'm not going to shun him. And it's like, you don't have to shun him. But don't act like you guys are best friends. I don't know. Have to have some more respect for the person that just was completely violated in her own barracks.
Marissa: Right. I was talking to somebody, I've been working with a friend to talk to wrestlers that have been speaking out on the speak out movement. And one of the things that one of our co hosts said was, Why are people still booking these people? Why are people still like pretending like this didn't happen. And they keep getting responses from Booker's and managers and people saying, “Well, what do you want me to do not book them?” Yeah, that is exactly what we want you to do. Why are we rewarding people for bad behavior? You are abusing and violating people and abusing power to control and manipulate people. You don't deserve to be surrounded by your peers laughing. Like you deserve to be behind bars.
Melissa: I completely agree. Yeah, it just makes you feel so invisible.
Marissa: So then what did you do? You said that you went and spoke to the mental health area of the Marines. What helped you heal from all of this?
Melissa: Oh, it took a very long time. I was so angry and disgruntled when I got out that like, whoever slighted me in like the simplest ways, I lashed out, left and right. I just actually started going to therapy about three months ago. It also helps that I'm becoming a, like, I'm in graduate school to become a mental health counselor. So I'm understanding people's behaviors now. And I'm understanding like my healing process.
Marissa: That's incredible. Thank you for doing that. And for taking something that was so horrible for you, and turning it into a positive. You have the power and capacity to understand and help so many people, and empathize with them, which is a very new concept for survivors.
Melissa: Yeah, I can, it's gonna be hard to empathize with the, you know, the people that commit the crime. But it's going to be, you know, also hard to empathize with people that are victims, because it's going to put me back and mentally into a place that I'm still trying to heal from. But I think I'm ready to like, go there again.
Marissa: Do you have a plan in case something triggers you? Or do you have any ideas of how to work through those triggers?
Melissa: Not yet, but I absolutely love my therapist, and he's, I don't know how to explain it. He's giving me the freedom to like, you know, call him anytime or text him and be like, Hey, I'm having like a day, and he'll be there. I think that's right now my only resource in my only tool in my in my bag.
Marissa: Well, that's incredible to have somebody like that. What advice would you give to other survivors of MST, military sexual trauma that are going through it now?
Melissa: Man, that's a hard one. Because you want to say, push through and take the chance of like, you want your voice out there. I'm not going to say never, I'm not saying stay silent and by any means. But you just have to find that person that like you can completely trust to help you through this journey. And don't doubt yourself. Because doubting yourself makes you isolated and lonely and then makes everyone else the enemy.
Marissa: There's a great quote from Star Wars and I swear I'm not a nerd. And I don’t remember it exactly. But it's like the bad people when we feel the most alone. When you doubt yourself, and you're unconsciously isolating yourself from people, you're doing yourself a disservice, and your community. And so you're not alone. You're never alone.
Melissa: Yeah, yeah. It's hard to want to trust anyone in the military when they're the ones you know, hurting you. It's literally a domestic violence relationship you have with the military when you're in those situations. You love it, you hate it, you get abused by it, you forget you were abused. And then just starts all over again.
Marissa: Wow, that's really painful. Thank you so much for for everything that you shared. I mean, your your insights incredible. Your story is heart wrenching. And I'm so sorry that you dealt with that. But know that you have me as a resource. You have this community as a resource. You're most certainly not alone. We have your back and you are so supportive and thank you for everything that you're now doing for survivors to help them I think that's amazing.
Melissa: Thank you.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent, domestic violence military, army domestic violence, military spouse abuse, domestic abuse in the military, military and domestic abuse, military and domestic violence, veterans and domestic violence, domestic violence in military families, veteran domestic violence, MST military, MST movement, military sexual trauma movement, MST survivor, abuse of power, military abuse of power, UCMJ abuse of power, marines, marine corps, abuse in the marines, abuse and marines, abuse and marine corps, military sexual trauma marines,
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today I have this amazing friend of mine, Heidi Cooke to come on and talk about chronic pain, and overall wellness and how to help survivors of abuse manage their chronic pain. So, Heidi attended Boise State University and received a Bachelors of Science in athletic training, while working for Boise State athletics — two seasons with their football, and one season with men's basketball and various other sports. Including track and field women's gymnastics, and women's swimming dive. So, she's like pretty knowledgeable about bodies. She graduated with the intention of going to physical therapy school and working in collegiate athletics. While in physical therapy school, she had her own powerful experience with wellness that shifted her focus to where she is today. She's a Doctor of Physical Therapy and a business owner working with individuals to improve their overall wellness with evidence-based tools and skills. No fad diets, no herbs and supplements to reduce pain. Real, science-backed tools to reduce chronic illness risk. Welcome on Heidi. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to talk to you.
Heidi: I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me,
Marissa: Of course. So, I've never had anyone like this on my podcast before. So, this is all brand-new information to me. So, I would love to hear what you do for people who have chronic pain.
Heidi: Yeah. So generally, I work with a very wide array of clients. From young, old, and everybody's kind of dealing with their own experiences. So, I don't really work with one specific patient or client population. Throughout my time in the PT world, I just kind of got more and more into this realm of overall wellness, just because I saw a huge need there. Like, only 25 to 26% of people that need physical therapy services, are getting in the doors of physical therapy clinics. And so, there's this huge population of people that were missing. And while I was doing all my clinical rotations in school, I was just like, how do we find these people? How do we grasp onto these people? And how do we get this information out there to all these people that aren't walking into our doors? And so that's what I do Now. I capture and find these people that need this information and need these tools and need these skills, but may not be walking into the doors of a physical therapy clinic. In its physical sense. And so now I work with people on like lifestyle modifications, — through exercise, diet, mindfulness, rest. All of those kinds of different components, to address the entire puzzle of wellness. And for a lot of my clients, chronic pain is just one piece of their overall puzzle.
Marissa: That's so interesting. So, I'm a big believer that emotional ailments manifest in physical symptoms, is that something that you find?
Heidi: Totally, totally. And that transitions well into kind of this idea that there was an old way of thinking about pain — you know, it was what we were told, growing up. It's like that narrative that we have running through our head of, I roll my ankle, and my ankle hurts, and I have pain. Or I step on a nail and, Ouch, my foot hurts. There's an input-output. That some sort of input causes pain. And that's the old way of thinking. And luckily, we're kind of getting out of that when it comes to mainstream thinking of pain. When we kind of go through the process, right, there's the old way of thinking or the best that we had with the knowledge that we had, right, which is that old way of thinking. And then it gets, you know, kind of debunked, or we learn more like through research and with science, and then that community of people understands it. And then it becomes more further adopted within that community. So other physical therapists, other doctors, other health care providers start adopting that way of thinking. And then finally, it gets into the mainstream narrative. And so, we're just kind of hitting like the tip of the iceberg there with the mainstream narrative of what pain is, and kind of the old way of thinking and this new way of thinking. And you kind of hit it right there, this new way of thinking. — And it has been scientifically proven, that pain isn't just from one specific input, and it can manifest in a physical sense from any sort of emotional trauma, physical trauma, mental trauma, anything like that, and it can manifest into physical symptoms. But it also can stick around, right. It's not one of those things where we have some sort of trauma and then we have some sort of output, right? Our bodies are complex, we have all of these different shared pathways. And we can't look at it as this happened and we're going to expect this sort of output, right. That's why one person could experience the same emotional trauma that their neighbor experienced. But they could have totally different experiences after the fact.
Marissa: That's so interesting that you say that. So, one thing that I've learned just in this work is that a lot of people who have been diagnosed with fibromyalgia have had sexual abuse in their past. So, I'd love if you just talk about maybe how that happens a little bit.
Heidi: With fibromyalgia specifically, right, that's a diagnosis that has been given. And for a lot of people like that helps with their experience, it helps them feel validated, it helps them to feel heard in what they're feeling, how they're feeling, and what they're experiencing, which is really powerful. But at the same time, slapping a diagnosis on something doesn't always we're not addressing anything by putting a label on it. And so, for me, looking at fibromyalgia, and that diagnosis, specifically, for me is just another way of looking at chronic pain. So chronic pain can take many forms and this Fibromyalgia diagnosis has kind of been labelled under this little micro-category, under chronic pain. When really should be looked at and addressed as just another form of chronic pain. And when you say you know that an individual had some sort of sexual abuse or sexual trauma in their past, and that manifests into a physical symptom that goes for any sort of chronic pain, right? Not Fibromyalgia specifically, I think that's where we get too far down a specific rabbit hole, when really the science around chronic pain and what is manifesting physically is the same in any of these cases. We have some sort of trauma, whether it be physical, whether it be emotional, sexual abuse, anything like that. And that affects our nervous system. For somebody who isn't experiencing chronic pain or didn't have a specific trauma in their past or whatever, we have this resting threshold that sits down here. And then there's a pain threshold that sits is somewhere above it. So for you to reach that pain threshold, there has to be X amount of input to reach that pain threshold. So, for me, I'm not experiencing chronic pain right now. So, for me to experience some sort of physical pain in my body, the input has to be above a certain level for me to have some sort of pain response in my body. For somebody that has had physical abuse, narcissism, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, any of those sorts of things, right, it manifests in our body as a neurological response. So now for those people, our resting threshold is sitting much closer to that pain threshold. So little things like movement, and this rings true for, you know, individuals who have fibromyalgia, any sort of small movements, fine movements, going for a walk, any sort of thing that can manifest in physical pain, now that input is so much smaller to reach that pain threshold. So now, for them going for a walk or doing small tasks, you know, that is as little of an input as you need to have that pain response. And so that kind of manifests into this stress cycle of, I don't want to move my body. I don't want to do these things. We get into this fear avoidance cycle of not wanting to move, not wanting to participate in all of these things. And all that does is keep our resting threshold right next to our pain threshold, to where it's a perpetuating cycle, if that makes sense.
Marissa: It does. Wow, that actually makes a lot of sense. And I have another question. I'm not entirely sure if this is in your ballpark, do you think somebody's mindset and mentality has an influence on where they're resting threshold and where their pain threshold are?
Heidi: Yes, and no, I mean, it's easy. So that's like one of those things that has kind of been, I know, it's easy for coaches or health professionals or whatever, to look at somebody and say, you just need to fix your mindset. It's easy to get really preachy with mindset. And while, part of that is true, if we're stuck in this downward spiral of this is my life and these are my circumstances, and I'm not going to be able to move and I can't move without pain. And I can't do this. And I can't do that. Absolutely. But it's not as easy as telling somebody, hey, you need to fix your mindset so that we can get your chronic pain under control, right? It's not that easy. It's so much more complex than that. And it really goes into more of a realm of reducing those fear-avoidance behaviors and really just understanding pain. Understanding why you're feeling the way you're feeling is so empowering. And that can kind of lead you down the path of fixing that, “Mindset.” Because, you know, one of my favorite quotes is, “You don't know, what you don't know.” And so, if you've been going on throughout your entire life thinking that “I'm experiencing this pain, because there's tissue damage happening,” that's not true, right? Pain doesn't equal tissue damage. Like I said, it can be something as small as going for a walk that's making you reach that pain threshold and making you experience pain. And if you didn't know that before, and if they didn't know that before, then how are they expected to know that, right? You don't know what you don't know. And so, empowering yourself with knowledge, empowering yourself with the tools and skills is the first step. And then once you have those tools and skills, you can start to kind of approach those movements or those things that are causing pain, and desensitizing them, and it goes through like a graded exposure. If I experienced a ton of pain from going for a walk or moving in general, and I'm stuck in bed or stuck on the couch all day, I'm not going to sit here and say fix your mindset, you need to go run a 5K. That's not going to help anybody And so we really need to look at it in a sense of — okay, we understand why we're experiencing this type of pain. Your body is safe. You're not experiencing tissue damage from getting up and going for a walk your body strong, your body isn't fragile. But that doesn't mean that the pain you're experiencing isn't real. The pain you're experiencing is real, the feeling you're having a super real. But we just need to retrain and desensitize your body into understanding that this activity is safe to perform. And we don't want to have this fight or flight response from going for a walk, which is something that we should all be able to do pain free, right? And so maybe, you know, approaching it of, Okay, we're going to walk from the bed to the couch, and you're going to, you know, keep telling yourself, I'm safe, I'm strong, and my tissues aren't being harmed in this activity. And then maybe tomorrow, we go downstairs. And maybe the next week, we go out and get the mail. And then maybe the next week after that we go for a short walk. And it's a process of desensitizing our nervous system and bringing down that resting threshold.
Marissa: That's awesome. So outside of what you just said, do you have any tips and tricks that you use for your clients that you could maybe impart on us?
Heidi: Yeah, absolutely. So, one would be really understanding your personal experience. So, you didn't get to where you are today, You didn't experience any physical or emotional trauma by yourself, right? That was due to the circumstances and the people that were around you at that time. So, we put all this pressure on ourselves to fix it ourselves, or to address it ourselves. But you didn't get there by yourself. So why are you expected to go through the healing process by yourself. So, seeking out professional help to address that emotional trauma that you experienced, is key. You aren't expected to know everything and be able to navigate this world on your own. So seeking help, and really putting in the work to address those feelings that we may be kind of burying deep inside that might be manifesting as physical pain. So, doing that work and seeking the professional help to help you put that work in. The second one is moving your body. Oh my gosh. It's one of those things that seems counterintuitive, right? When I move, I have pain. But like I said before movement really breaks that stress pain cycle that I was talking about previously. And movement and desensitizing the body slowly, like I said, not all at once. There's such things as people will talk about, “Flares,” right that they're having and, I go for a walk and I get this flare. Well, then maybe we back down the walk. Your nervous system isn't going to learn something right off the bat. It takes time and it takes, like I said, graded exposure, and you can seek professional help. Physical Therapists can help with chronic pain. There are physical therapists that specialize in working with people with chronic pain, and will help you develop a plan. A graded exposure plan to help you get moving again. And break that stress pain cycle and lower your resting threshold. And then the last thing, remember that you're not alone. Seek a community of people, and really dive into that community. Dive into it in a way that is positive for you, and helpful for you. It's not helpful when you're diving into a community, and everybody is kind of perpetuating everybody's symptoms instead of being encouraging and helpful. And so, seeking out an encouraging and helpful community of people that are experiencing what you're experiencing, just really helps you kind of go through this process, and realize that you're not alone in this at all.
Marissa: Thank you so much for that. I can't stress enough how grateful I am that you encourage people to find a community for them, because I think everybody, especially right now, during COVID, feel so isolated from other people. And we all just feel so alone in our lives, right? Like, I'm going to stress or this anxiety because I'm stuck in my house and can't go to the grocery store, because I'm terrified for my life. And they get stuck, like you said, in a cycle. And not having a community that's safe and empowering, it really is debilitating. And I think that goes twice for people that are experiencing chronic pain or abuse, because we already feel so isolated from people physically or emotionally. So, thank you for that. How can people get in touch with you if they would like to work with you?
Heidi: Yeah, so easiest way, if you want to just find me is on Instagram: @Pro.Motion.Wellness
and if you want to work with me, personally, shoot me an email: ProMotionWellness@gmail.com.
And then I also have a website where you can find all of the plans and packages and pricing and all that stuff to work one on one. I also do group and buddy coaching, which helps a lot of people again, find that community find that accountability partner. And it really just helps some people feel a little bit more comfortable to have a familiar face there. And a lot of times, you know, our friends or our family members are all going through the same things we are, and asking those questions and stuff can kind of help break the ice in a group setting. And you can find that on my website at Pro-Motion-Wellness.com
And I'll have all of those links in the description if you're interested.
Marissa: Thank you so much for being here. Heidi. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited about all this information you gave us. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.
Heidi: Of course. And one last little titbit This was a like super Reader's Digest version of pain. And we really just skimmed the surface of it. Like I'd mentioned in the beginning. It's super complex. And we're learning more and more about chronic pain every single day. And so, if you want to dive a little bit deeper and get into more of the nitty gritty and learn more, I have two episodes on my podcast that dives specifically into pain. I have a colleague of mine, Dr. Bill Walters, who comes on and we discuss chronic pain and kind of bust some myths around chronic pain. And it's a two-episode series. So, two hours total. So, if you go to the ProMotion U Podcast on iTunes or Spotify, it's Episode 18 and 19.
Marissa: Thank you so much for being here Heidi. Oh my gosh, we are so grateful for all of your information. And I hope that my listeners are encouraged if you are experiencing chronic pain to reach out to Heidi because not only is she knowledgeable but she is fun and awesome too.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent,
Get in touch with Heidi:
Insta: @Pro.motion.wellness Email: ProMotionWellness@gmail.com Website: pro-motion-wellness.com Pro Motion U Podcast, Episode 18: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/18-top-10-pain-myths-with-dr-bill-walters-pt-1/id1482656464?i=1000465163584
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Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: On Monday, we heard the horrific story from Teri and Patrick Caserta about the awful treatment their son Brandon Caserta went through while in the Navy. He was harassed, hazed, abused, and forced to work in a toxic environment with a known abuser. He was surrounded by toxic leadership and felt trapped, like his only way out was suicide. I can't begin to imagine what his parents are going through. Let's tune back into the conversation and see what the next steps are in Teri and Patrick's plan to bring justice for Brandon.
I want to hear about The Brandon Act. Tell me what it is, what it's doing, and how you're going about getting it into law.
Patrick Caserta: Well, The Brandon Act, it was developed to be a safe word for military, so they can utilize it, and have some privacy to their issues. So, an example would be. Somebody on a Tuesday morning went to work, and they were feeling depressed, they could just tell the lowest supervisor, they could tell them, “I have a Brandon Act issue. I invoke the Brandon Act,” and that person has to say okay. And the person that invokes The Brandon Act gets to go, I'm just going to say for simplicity, to medical. They go to medical, triage, or in this case, obviously, the mental health. They go to mental health, they'll see a counselor or a psychologist. And a plan will be put into motion, whatever their problem is. It could be marriage problem, relationship problem, could be bullying, hazing. Could be sexual harassment, MST, Military Sexual Trauma, it could be anything. And they'll get triaged to where they need to go, and get the help. It's to ensure that no one feels left alone, left out, and that they have nobody to talk to. Because I know the public believes that the military is like the fire department. It is not like the fire department. The camaraderie and looking out for each other and all that does not exist. Everybody's out for themselves, sort of, or don't have time. With The Brandon Act, they can't say, “We’ll go later.” “Could you go tomorrow?” “Could you go next week?” “We're busy.” “We have too much work." No. They get to go right then and there. They're gone. Just like that. Command cannot retaliate. They can't do anything. They go get the help they need. They might need three or four sessions with counselor or psychologist, and they might actually get healed, and they'll be fine. And while they're having somebody to talk to, they are introduced to the world of counseling and mental health. And understand that it's not what everybody tries to paint it to be. Like a big bad dragon, that’s going to ruin your career. Or if you end up on medication or something, your career is over. It teaches them that there’s actually a useful tool to be able to talk to someone. And it's teaching them that they can go do this, and get the help that they need when they need it. And it also prevents even the command. If somebody sat down from the command and talked to them for two hours, they're really not qualified to talk to them for a couple hours about their problem, if you really think about it. Just because they’re a supervisor doesn't mean they know what they're talking about. And then the question is, do they really care? Are they really going to put effort? Where if they go to outside source on the base, they're going to get proper help, and those people are going to care and want to help them, and listen to their problems no matter what it is. And it can remain confidential. When you're a veteran through the VA, the Vet Center gives you this… the VA will pay for any help you need, counseling, whatever you need. It's there for the rest of your life. So, it teaches them to go get help when you need it. Whether you're in or out. Veteran or not, it doesn't matter. You can get that help. And not to be afraid because 25 veterans a day are dying by suicide, also. Getting them to the door — Proactive system like the Brandon Act. That's what we need. Because he said the success rate is like 99.9% if you get them in the door. We need to get them to the door. If you're sexually assaulted, you need to go to the police. You don't have to go to your command. You do not have to go to your command. But if you believe that, then The Brandon Act is going to be a great tool for you because that enables you, if you're sexually assaulted or harassed, you go to medical and again you triage where you need to go. The police will get involved. It'll be documented and now taken out of the commands hands. Which means they can't cover it up. They can't retaliate against you, and chances are, that you will get justice.
Marissa: I think that's an awesome idea and I hope that included in it is some form of confidentiality. Built in. Just like when you report a sexual assault in the military, if you don't go to a SARC or victim advocate, it automatically gets escalated. And I would hate for that to be a pitfall of The Brandon Act. But that's a great idea and that sounds like a phenomenal tool for people to use. So, thank you guys for creating that. How can we support you to make sure that, that is a utilized tool?
Caserta: Getting it passed. Senator McSally is leading the way right now. She introduced it as a stand-alone bill, and she's trying to get it attached to the Senate's version of the NDAA. It is attached to the house version, and it has already passed. But now they go to committee and they figure out the best of both of their NDAA’s and figure out the best one, and that's the one that they use for the military. It's hoped that the Brandon Act will stay with it. She's trying to get added to the Senate version that way and betters its chances. But she is introducing it as a stand-alone also, which means awareness of it. We're calling Senators right now and making them aware of it. That way when it comes up and they're voting on it, they know what they're voting on. And can make a good decision on if they support it or not. Now the uniqueness of the Brandon Act… there are other Acts out there for sexual harassment. There's several, actually. The Brandon Act does not conflict with any of them. So, the Brandon Act can pass along with them. Well, obviously, you know about the Guillen one, IAmVanessaGuillen, with the independent investigation and things like that. That's great. We support it. We think it's fantastic. But the Brandon Act complements it. Well, it's just another tool. These are tools that they can use. All of them need to pass. But The Brandon Act in particular. Make the senators aware. That's what's going to get it passed. Awareness.
Teri Caserta: And your listeners, you and your listeners if they want to, they can call their congressmen and women and senators to let them know that they are interested, and want the Brandon Act passed. I believe the more people that contact their congressional representatives, the better chances of them knowing about it. And they want this passed.
Patrick Caserta: We've been contacted recently several times already asking if it's in effect. There's people in need, and we've helped people. We help them, you know, it's not passed. We do help them, and give them information on how to get help. But The Brandon Act definitely would make things easier for them. And I think they’d feel more comfortable with doing it. And that's why they're asking us if it's passed yet. Now we have two quests going on. We have the save lives quest. Brandon's legacy is to save lives. We've committed ourselves the rest of our lives to doing that for service members, or anyone, but in particular service members and veterans. The other path is justice for Brandon. We need all the help we can get because it is not looking the way it should. Although there are some things that are changing, and some attention that we're getting that is going to cause some things to happen, we believe. But again, it's hopeful thinking, and we have the evidence and the facts, we just need the military to want to see the evidence and facts and use it against the people. But until then, we're stuck on that justice path. But the other path is doing very well. And what's important is it's going to save lives. And the sooner it gets passed, the sooner we start saving lives. We're going to monitor the numbers, the suicide numbers, the sexual harassment, MST. We're going to monitor and see if it does get passed. And if the numbers go down. If they go up, obviously, there's more work that needs to be done. We need to amend it or many other things to get some other stuff put in place to bring these numbers down.
Marissa: Here's what I want. First and foremost, absolute call to action to all of my listeners to call your senators and representatives and tell them that you want The Brandon Act passed, because there's literally no reason for it not to. One suicide one veteran suicide per year is one too many. And the fact that the numbers are inflating now, so they have to reduce the qualifications. And I can get into that in a different episode, but it's disgusting. So, the second thing I want to say is that Teri and Patrick, I'm going to put you guys in touch with my friend Dennis Addesso, who is the president of a non-profit out of New Jersey, called Ma Deuce Deuce. And they work to help survivors of attempted military suicide or families of veteran suicide. And I think that this is something that they'd be really interested in and they have a ton of connections. Thank you, guys, so much for being here today. You are inspirational social justice fighters. I'm just so inspired by you guys. And I hate your son's story. I'm so sorry about it. But you guys truly are creating a legacy and you will get justice. The last question I have is, what advice would you guys give to parents of military to help them make a safe situation for their children who are serving,
Patrick Caserta: One thing you need to do is listen to your children, like you always do. But the point is, you need to keep your guard up when they're in the military. I mean, like 100 times more than you ever did before. You think they're in good hands. Like I said, we trusted Brandon’s command. The public trusts the military was in good hands. You can't think that way. We've had a lot of parents; we've saved a lot of lives already. They called us concerned about their children. And some of them were suicidal. Some of them were on the verge of it. Some parents were just worried they were suicidal. In the over worry about that. And to get them help, and talk to them, and make them open up to you. And find out, we had a phenomenal relationship with our son. We were the three musketeers. He was an only child, and we did everything together. He put up with 1000 times worse than I could ever tell you. That's what we didn't know. Had we known that things would have turned out differently. So, you need to keep your guard up. Keep in touch, even if you text every day with your children. Obviously, if they're in the war zone or something, you might not be able to do that. But as much as you can talk to them. Don't ever think that they're old enough to be on their own. Brandon don’t get me wrong. He was a young man, and he was more than capable of being on his own, and he was on his own. But he lost his true infrastructure of friends. But more importantly, he was putting an environment of people that he felt didn’t like him. And that's not a good feeling. And we all know that. But it reminds me of high school. And the poor kid was put in that environment. And ultimately, even the people that did like him turned on him. So, he had people to talk to. He had some good friends here. He had us. He had his uncles, aunts, his grandmother. There were a lot of people Brandon could have talked to if he needed to. Why he chose not to, I don't know. I think he thought he had it over-control. And I think they just broke him at the last possible second. Be open-minded where your children. Listen to them. Talk to them. Reassure them. And if you're overdoing it, they tell you over doing it, just let it go in one ear and out the other. Be like the teenagers. In one ear out the other. Keep doing it. Don't stop until they get through the main crowd in the military. You still do it to the end. I just caution you, if you're on a quest for justice, or something like that, there's not much out there for you. We'll guide you and help you in any way we can. We have resources and we belong to groups that can help you the best that they can. There's not a lot out there and that needs to change too. But unfortunately, that's going to take time and it's not going to bring back our kids. So, preventing it like The Brandon Act can, and other things can, and you can. Be proactive. That's the best thing you could do, because your doorbell could be next. I'm sorry, I hate to break the news to you. But right now, somebody's doorbell rang several times. Several doorbells rang while we were doing this, being told their son or daughter or loved one is dead.
Marissa: Thank you so much for all that I think that there was a lot of very helpful insight. Is there anything else that you want to share?
Teri Caserta: The only reason AE1 Jared Brose left the command is because he was overheard making derogatory statements about Brandon and his death two days after Brandon died. And the command opted not to take him to captain's mast, because that would keep him in the command longer. So, they just gave him, I'll say a bad evaluation, and sent him to the wing with the admiral, which would have been Commodore, Alan M. Worthy – Commander Atlantic Helicopter Combat Wing. But that is the only reason he was taken off of HSC 28. Otherwise, he'd still be there. And we also found out that he's doing the exact same thing, because now he's in another command and bragging about how he drove one of his sailors to suicide.
Patrick Caserta: AE1 Jared Brose got fired from that deployment, and that guy was having a hard time when AE1 Jared Brose was there. AE1 Jared Brose left, and this guy rise to the top. He's still in the Navy. He has a career. He's making a career out of it. He turned the corner back to the way he was before AE1 Jared Brose was over him. And had Brandon been away from AE1 Jared Brose, I mean, they knew bros was abusing Brandon and they did nothing about it.
Teri Caserta: Yeah, the only thing AE1 Jared Brose got after he was removed from that deployment was, we were told, one anger management class. That's it. And we are not the only family who's trying to fight for justice. I'm in so many groups and there are 1000s upon 1000s of families trying to get justice for their loved ones, because of either the negligence, the bullying, the hazing, the sexual harassment MST, that their loved one had endured. We are not the only family out there. We just don't want anybody else to go through what Brandon did, and we don't want any other family to go through what we have. Those people that killed our son, we would not wish this on them. That is the worst pain ever.
Marissa: Thank you guys so much for sharing everything you shared. And I'm so grateful that you guys are empowered to be making this change. It's huge. And you're right, I mean, nothing's going to change until the people who did this to Brandon and to probably 1000s of other service members are held accountable. I'm on board. I'm all in to do whatever I can to help. Thank you, guys, so much for dedicating your life and Brandon's legacy to keeping other service members safe. Thank you, guys, so much for being here today.
Casertas: Thank you, we appreciate it.
“The people shown below are an embarrassment and a disgrace to the Navy, our great country and to society as a whole. As parents of a truly wonderful young man, we demand those responsible be held accountable for Brandon’s death. Since there is not a statute of limitations on murder, it’s not too late to file charges.”
Commodore, Alan M. Worthy – Commander Atlantic Helicopter Combat Wing Commander, Duane Whitmer – Commanding Officer (HSC-28) Commander, Trevor Prouty – Executive Officer (HSC-28) Command Master Chief, David Tokarski Master Chief Pete Lerette Chief Doug Delasanro Chief Shelah Hennard NC1 Remmy Spence AE1 Jared Brose
Marissa: Everybody's story is a little bit different. Nobody has gone through exactly what you have. And although that can make us feel alone, know that by speaking out, you're inspiring others do the same. writing a book is what gave me my start on this journey. I decided that even though I didn't feel that my story was as awful as what others experienced. If I could help one other person process and heal from what they experienced. It was worth telling. And it did. I received a ton of support and private messages from people who felt inspired and empowered by me speaking my truth. If you have a story that you want to share, I would love to help you start this journey. The people who have endured sexual assault and domestic violence all have the same notion. They just don't want anyone else to feel the way they did. We want to support everyone. Do yourself and our community service and consider writing your story or contributing it to my breaking through the silence series your words and your voice are powerful and your story can help others heal from their abuse. If you're interested, please send me an email to me at MarissaFayecohen.com and I would be thrilled to work with you on breaking your silence. Thank you so much.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Trigger Warning... Suicide
Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. In the nature of Military MeToo and IAmVanessaGuillen, I've been talking to a lot of MST survivor, MST survivors, service members who are survivors of MST, domestic violence or military sexual trauma. And Sexual Assault Response coordinators who have worked with the military and been retaliated against for doing their job and defending MST survivors. What we haven't talked about here is how that impacts the family of service members who are affected by MST military sexual trauma. So today, I'm super honored to bring on two of my coalition members and friends. I'm so excited. Teri and Patrick Caserta. Patrick is a 22-year retired Navy counsellor, Senior Chief, and Terry, his wife claims to just be an administrative assistant. But I think she's a thought leader and a powerhouse advocate for survivors. And they together are the authors of The Brand Act. And they're dedicated to carry out their son Brandon's legacy of saving the lives of our service members. Hey, guys, Welcome on Breaking through Our Silence. I'm so happy to have you today.
Teri Caserta: Well, thank you for having us today. We're excited as well.
Marissa: I'm sorry for the nature of the conversation. I wish it was something happier. But I'm so inspired by you guys and your bravery. And you're speaking out for what happened to your family. So, would you guys mind be telling us your story?
Patrick Caserta: Well, first of all, our son Brandon, he was since he was four years old, he was in swimming and he maintained swimming till the day he left for active duty. And he was in karate also since he was four. And a played many sports over the years. In modern times, We didn't know this, but sports are year-round. He was a sport year-round not just in high school, but before High School. And we coached a lot of his teams over the years. And it was mainly football, flag football, football, he played some baseball but mainly football. And we were able to save up enough money for him to go to college. His college was paid for. Meaning it was already we can afford this. And we already have money set aside for it. And we did not want him joining the military at all. The thought was I had already served, and he we wanted him to, because he had the opportunity a lot of people do not, go to college. So, one day out of nowhere, he hit us with a surprise, that he wanted to join the military and become a Navy Seal. And we were shocked. And I was against it. But I knew that this was something he really wanted to do. He had a plan, and supporting him on it was the right thing to do. And ultimately, he could join anyway on his own later. So, the point was, it was better to support his decision and be proud of what he wants to do, than to go against it. So, we supported him. We got him everything he needed. He worked, boy did that kid work out. And he was already in shape. But he we took them the swimming all the time, which was about five miles away. He'd wake up early in the morning and ride his bike and he wrote up and back and 120 degrees sometimes. And he’d come home and he'd be completely soaked in sweat. And but the bike ride was you know, good for physical fitness and as he called it, SEAL training. Ultimately went in and he was in Seal training. He made it to week three, unfortunately, he broke his leg and he actually collapsed on the beach. They throw him in the back of a pickup truck. They should have taken him to medical. They did not. Since we're in Arizona, he called us and we went out there immediately. And I could have gotten him back into seals based upon the fact that he had a broken leg. He told me word for word, "Dad, you can do that. And I know you'd get me back in. But they'll never let me make it through. They'll never let me make it through.” So, he would know more than I would because he was in the training so I backed away and honored his request. Unfortunately, when you don't make it through the seals, you're at the mercy of the Navy. And the Navy gave him three or four jobs to pick from. And he picked the best one of the bunch that was there. And they shipped them away with a broken leg to Pensacola. He went to school. He got orders to Norfolk, Virginia, HSC 28. He checked in. He went to advanced school there for a couple months. And then ultimately checked into the command permanently. And I kid you not they had him selling candy. And I'm not lying or exaggerating. Yes, candy. And yes, this is waste, fraud and abuse, it is best. So, I just want the taxpayers to know, and I am pursuing this and have been. But he decided, because of the toxic and abusive leadership in the command, and he was being abused and wanted out of there. So, he applied for an air-crewman program. He was accepted to it. He had orders leaving February 2018. But in October-November time-frame, he fell off his bike, he fell to the ground, broke his collarbone. So, he was going to rehab, and weren't sure when he was going to be found, as the military calls it, “Fit for duty.” So, the command on their own, took it upon themselves to cancel his orders, even though, like I pointed out, he went to Pensacola, Florida with a broken leg. You could ship him somewhere with a broken collarbone, especially when it would be basically healed by the middle of February anyway, when his orders were to be executed. But the command cancelled orders without his permission. And the deal was, the counsellor of the command said that once you are found fit for duty, he'll have you out here within two weeks. So, Brandon moved along. On March 28 He was found fit for duty. He went to the NC and said, “Hey, I'm found fit for duty. Here's the paperwork.” The NC said, "Okay, I got it, I'll take care of it.” And Brandon kept bugging the guy and nothing, nothing. Nothing. Brandon said, “Well, I'm supposed to be out here in two weeks.” He goes, “Oh, I never said that.” And mysteriously, he had to do all the paperwork over again. And apply again for air-crewman. Supposedly. He was in the process of doing that, this is a time consuming thing takes couple months. So, he was doing it. And all along, I want to point out that he was being abused by an LPO by the name of Jared Brose. And this Brose guy was heading on deployment for six months. And he was so abusive that they turned him in. And he got fired and kicked off deployment. And he went back to the command. And they gave him a job being in charge of ultimately, he was in charge of Brandon. He was in charge of others, but Brandon was under him. Again. And he continued to abuse Brandon in front of everybody and nobody cared. An example is, we sent a package for Christmas to him. And this guy gets the mail. And at the morning quarters, he has a package for him, walks up in the middle of the room and drops it on the floor, and says here's your package. That's the kind of person he was. He did this in front of everybody. This guy didn't care. He did whatever he wanted to, and the commander knew it. But he fit in with the command. He fit right into their toxic abuse of leadership and abuse of power. So, they favored the guy. That's why they put him back in charge. Anyway, this guy continued to abuse him, and ultimately, they made him write down on a piece of paper his name, social security number, date of birth, address, and they took it from him and didn't tell him what it was for. Half hour later they called him into a room. There were seven people in this room. And there was this Chief on a computer by the name of Chief Doug Delasanro and AE1 Jared Brose was in the room too. And so was his Chief Shelah Hennard. It was seven total. And they are on a computer looking up his driver's license, on the Arizona DMV website, looking up his driver's license, they couldn't find one. They asked if he'd moved. He said yes, because Brandon is totally honest. Added in the new address, and poof, up pops information. It's not necessarily a driver's license, either. It could have been an ID. They didn't know. Brandon took out his wallet and they grabbed it out of his hand. Took his wallet, grabbed his credit card, paid for duplicate license and in Arizona, change of address is free. You don't have to buy a duplicate license and changed his address, and had the license sent to him personally. When I say to him, I'm talking about Chief Doug Delasanro. And then basically looked at and started laughing so it looks like you do have a driver's license. And basically told him to leave. So, he did. He texted us, and called us, and we knew about it. And this AE1 Jared Brose guy was trying to press charges against Brandon because they wanted him to drive, and he didn’t have a drivers license. Somehow, some way, I do not know how they felt they were entitled to his driver's license. I couldn't tell you how people would ever think that way but again, toxic abuse of leadership and abuse of power. They do whatever they want to do. They always have, always will. That'll never change. This Brose guy was picking on him like crazy. So, this set the stage for Brandon, being in a corner. Now I spoke to him. He was very upset. We had no idea, obviously that he wouldn't be suicidal at all. I thought for a minute we were coming out there anyway, because his command would not listen to reason. So, I was coming out there, but the plan was I was calling Monday morning. Monday morning, I called the command and I was on the phone with the senior enlisted advisor by the name of Command Master Chief, David Tokarski. And this guy is going round and round on me about this driver's license thing. And I'm like, we could argue all day, you're not entitled to the license. He just did not understand that. I mean, this guy literally without exaggerating the IQ of a hockey puck. And he wouldn't listen to me. And I argued, argued, argued, and all he kept saying is he's claustrophobic and if he goes to medical and claims to be claustrophobic, all this goes away. I'm like, No, he's not doing that. Because then he can't go air crewmen. He can't even be in the Navy. He's claustrophobic. And I said, He's not claustrophobic. He doesn't drive. What part of that don't you understand? Well, he argues with me. He said he had to go. So, he left. When he got off the phone. He said, I'll call you back right away 30 minutes later, he does call back. In that 30 minutes for a called me, apparently, he went and found Brandon, it was just screaming at him in front of everybody. And degrading him and calling him all this sand. Your daddy can call as much as he wants, he can't help you. We're going to burn you. We're going to, send you to mast, kick you out of the Navy ,and all that. Next thing I know, he calls us back. Like I said, I'm on the phone with him. He's going round and round his driver's license again, even though there's nothing else to talk about. So, I got off the phone with him. Teri was looking for plane tickets. We were coming out there. I was furious. I was going to go out there. And I told Brandon to let the command know we're going to legal. Run and see the EEOC, and that we're going to get an attorney if necessary. And then I'm going to talk to the commanding officer and we'll take it from there. And next thing I know, we're texting with Brandon. Teri gets a text. “Just know I love you." And that was it.
We lost touch. Were trying to get a hold of them kept trying to get a hold of him. And next thing we know two uniformed people are at our door. And obviously, we knew why they were there. And we still hoped for the best, and that he was alive. And unfortunately, he wasn't. And they told us he was dead. Obviously, he died when I was on the phone with the command the second time. But of course, command will never tell us that. I mean, they follow protocol. Just ask them they're so honest. And what had happened is, he went out, I guess during Flight Ops, they let him through the flight line when the Helo was going, they should have never let him through. They're going to say their excuse is, “he was one of us.” That's fine. He's one of you. When two rotors are going nobody is allowed in and out of there. Period. Unless it's the flight crew. And Brandon was not the flight crew. And nobody is allowed in the area. Somehow, they breached. He said something to what they call the Plane Captain — who's in charge of the ground crew, and he said I'm sorry for you about the Helo. He ran at a tail rotor to Helo. He jumped up. Missed. So, he jumped again. He succeeded. They watched. They did nothing. They didn't tackle him. They didn't try to do anything to stop him. And then, here's the great part. Afterwards. So, this happens, you know what they all do, there's about 9 to 10 of them, they all run. They don't have them. They don't do no first aid, nothing, they all run away. Now one will say human beings are human, they may do something like that. This is various ranks of people who've done this stuff 1000s of times that know better. And they've seen things. I've seen things; you respond to it. Not everybody responds the same. But how do nine people run away? And Brandon for almost the whole time he was there kept telling us everybody hates him. And we did not believe that to be a blanket statement. But in the end, we have found people that lied to him and appears they did. But we think that there's a lot of truth to that. That explains their actions. But anyway, no first aid is applied. Nothing. That poor kid sat on that tarmac in the hot sun for six hours. They left him there. He went from there to the morgue. He never went to the hospital. They never took him to hospital and this is all on film. We don't have the film. We've never seen it. And of course, the military said there was a film and then they conveniently have said there isn’t. Even though there is. And ironically, the lovely excuse to be here on every time you ask for clip that some of the cameras were broken. And it's just a standard answer by the military. I mean, they buy cameras that costs 100 times more money than ours, and they're very reliable. And yet they're always broken when something happens. It's kind of a standard answer for them. Anyway, that in a nutshell, is the story of Brandon. To that point, now, turns out he was abused a lot worse than we ever thought. This kid never did anything, anybody. He helped people. Before he went to military used to bring home homeless people, he’d help special needs people. He helped everybody. And whether you liked him or not, he helped you. If you hated him, and he knew you hated him, he still helped you. So that's part one of it. This is all factual information. There is no exaggerating anything. The commanding officer Commander, Duane Whitmer – Commanding Officer (HSC-28), and the executive officer Commander, Trevor Prouty – Executive Officer (HSC-28). Those two individuals did nothing to help the kid at all. And they knew and condoned toxic leadership. They were part of the problem.
Now phase two starts on the reason I point this out is, there are those out there, they're going to say, he took his own life, he had a choice. He didn't have to do what he did and all that. I know what people say. Well, Brandon felt trapped his letter he left behind, it tells you this. And it also points out that we're not at fault. Not to, we take responsibility, believe me, we do. And we will take responsibility till the day we die. However, he points out, this is the Navy's fault and the commands fault. He points that out in the letter. It also gets better. They were keeping him for personal greed and keeping him from a program that the Navy needed people for, and he was supposed to leave.
Teri Caserta: Well, because it was 180 days is when they're supposed to be able to complete it. They wanted him to complete it in two weeks.
Patrick Caserta: And that explains why that flight line let him in when the Helo's were going. Those people got qualified quickly too. Some of them. And obviously the commanding officer didn't properly train his crew. Anyway, moving forward, Here's Part Two. He felt trapped. He felt he had no choice. He took his own life. He sent a message to command like, look what you made me do. And he left some letters for some others. And he felt those people would help us get justice for him. Unfortunately, they all turned their back on us too. He left them 10-page letters. He left us a five-page letter. So, you tell me they put in their statements that they don't know him that well. And they don't know why he left them letter. Well, when we got Brandon's phone, we went to the text. Oh, yeah, they were really good friends. Those people lied. And they're covering up this. And that's the part two I'm going to point to. If you believe Brandon took his own life on his own, and you believe it's a choice, and you have no empathy for the story, and the abuse of power, and how they treated him on that, well follow me on this.
So, the Chief’s come in fresh uniform tell us our son's dead. They're here for a little bit and we're talking to them and tell them the story and they're listening. And then after a while, they broke down and started talking to us. And it was strange that they were even bringing the subject matter up. But turns out that on their way over when they were coming to tell us that Brandon was dead, they had done an internet search. And they found an article that said someone died at Norfolk, Virginia, and it was the safety mishap and that…
Teri Caserta: They were supposed to come tell us that he was alive and in the hospital. That is why they were coming to our house.
Patrick Caserta: Well, they pulled over and they called the command and he said, “Look, you know, this article says he's dead. You told us he's alive and in the hospital. I got to tell the parents. What's going on?" So, the command proceeded to tell them well tell the parents he's alive in the hospital. And he's like, Is he alive in hospital? They're like, No, he's dead. He's on the flight line laying there. And he's like, well, I can't tell them that he's alive in the hospital if he's dead. I can't do that. And these guys didn't work for the commanding officer. So, they said they're not going to do it. So, it all starts right there. There's where phase two begins with this lovely Helicopter Squadron 28 commanding officer. So they lied there. Then they proceed to treat us horribly. They hold a memorial service. They don't invite us. They didn't get our permission to hold one although ultimately, I realized they wouldn't need our permission. But you understand my point. The Navy is required, and I did not know this. I wish I didn't because I found out because Brandon's dead, is they fly your immediate family out there to the memorial service. They pay for everything. And the two people dressed in uniform that came to our door, are the ones that are supposed to set that up for us, and pay for it. Of course, that was never done. And the reason that was never done is, we weren't invited. And we didn't even know there was going to be memorial service held. On that subject, there's an article out there where the command responds and says, we were invited. They lied in the article, we were not invited. That's factual. The two people come into the door, make the travel arrangements. They arranged for us to be there. If they didn't make the arrangements, then how in the world could we've been invited? And then we found emails that we got through a FOYA of them going back and forth, saying we were concerned about getting his body back and waiting for it. Well, turns out, there's truth to that. However, we could have gone out there. No family even arrived til the weekend. He died on a Monday. No one even came into picture until the weekend. We could have easily gone to the memorial service. And as far as the body goes, somehow, some way his body was delayed for two weeks. The command got involved, and somehow they got the body delayed. People die in the war and get home faster than our son did. The command interfered with the body coming home. Now why did they do this? And why not invite us to memorial service, You're wondering? Sounds kind of stupid. Well, they did not want us there because they knew I was retired Navy. They knew that we would talk and ask questions to the people in the command. And they did not want us talking to them. They delayed the body because they didn't want us coming out there. Because had we come out their Rest assured, we planed on going to the media. And they knew this and they did not want that to happen. They did not want word to get out over what they had done. Ultimately, NCIS is investigating. And they're investigating whether the medical examiner's report in the cause of death match. When they were investigating, I gave them all kinds of information. Instead of investigating it, they just asked the command nonchalantly some questions. Like we were looking for his driver's license — the one that was sent to Chief Doug Delasanro that stole his credit card, and other things. Well, NCIS knew the command was corrupt. But the command was being nice to them and coaching them on. You know, saying, “Hey, we're innocent." Saying, “You know, this guy did this on his own. We're nice people.” And so NCIS bought it. They should have turned it into a criminal investigation once they found out the command lying. There are several people they didn't even get statements from the witnessed the event. In particular, the one that was closest to Brandon at the time. When I say closest, I'm talking proximity. They never interviewed him, ever. So, NCIS does an incomplete investigation. The statements are falsified. They’re not accurate. They’re not the way they're supposed to be. So, then the command does what's called a command line of duty investigation. They completely covered up everything. I mean, everything. The statements are falsified, they lie about everything. There is no truth in this thing. Commanding officer, you know what he put out after Brandon died? He mustered the whole command and told them that if they talked to us, or the press, or anyone, or tell the truth about what happened to Brandon, it'll be considered mutiny, and will be sent to Fort Leavenworth prison. Almost one year later, when the executive officer took over by the name of Commander, Trevor Prouty – Executive Officer (HSC-28), he put out that same exact remark. Because two articles were coming out. It took us a year to get articles out and they knew about the articles. And they put that out before they came out and threatened the entire command again. Why would you threaten the entire command if you had nothing to hide, and you're innocent? So, this Commander, Trevor Prouty – Executive Officer (HSC-28) and Commander, Duane Whitmer – Commanding Officer (HSC-28) are disgraces to the military, the Navy and society. If both commanders and come forward and told the truth, and they said, “Look, this is a tragic death. However, we learned from this, we've done training, we put new safety procedures in place. We’ve raised the bars on our training program. We have made the command more aware of people's feelings, and if they witness events to report it.” They would have gotten away with this. There's nothing we could have done to them. And then of course, they would have to go after the people that are guilty:
AE1 Jared Brose Chief Doug Delasanro Chief Shelah Hennard Command Master Chief, David Tokarski Master Chief Pete Lerette NC1 Remmy Spence,
All those people you would have, they would have to go after them of course and discipline them. But if they did, that both of their careers would be intact. And they'd be fine. And there's nothing we could do. The Navy they would say that yes, the chain of command let him down, and people let him down, and the commanding officers recovered from it and did this this and this. And that would be the end of it. But no, they chose to cover all this up All they cared about I guess was their career.
Marissa: I am so sorry for everything you guys went through and everything Brandon went through. I mean, I know that I had little to no part in any of it but I am like a mix of devastated for you and heartbroken and angry. Like I'm fuming. One of the things I wanted to kind of ask as a follow up is, I know that you said you called as a concerned parent, and you never called as retired military. But wouldn't they already know that? They would already know that, Patrick that you've had military experience.
Patrick Caserta: I was insulted and upset and they did know. They knew long time ago, I was retired military. And I had high position. I was the Serve Pack Fleet Counselor, when I was a Counselor. And I was in recruiting for 15 years. So, I knew what I was talking about, and they wouldn't listen to me. Like I said, they killed and murdered him. However, I will point this out. They will continue to kill. They will kill again, and again, and again, unless somebody does something about it. And the only way they can put an end to that, is to stand up to them. This case these people need to go. But there's always a new batch. We need to stop it from rising. And the way to do that is to clean house and the Navy needs to put out. Because if you were to call the Navy right now and talk to somebody that's in charge high up, nobody tells you about hazing, bullying, harassing sexual harassment. They're going to tell you there's zero tolerance. If that is the case, why is our son dead? How can he be dead if there's zero tolerance for bullying, hazing, harassing, torture, intimidating? If there's zero tolerance why is Brandon Caserta dead? They can't answer that question. All we want is justice for Brandon. Brandon asked us in writing, we can show you the letter, specifically says to get justice for him. Matter of fact, it says, “Make them pay for what they put me through.” And the only way to get that is we have to demand it. And we have to get the attention of the appropriate people to do something. And unfortunately, the military never does anything until they don't have a choice. And don't have a choice means that they are so embarrassed that they're going to do something. And that's news articles, podcasts, things of that nature. I mean, Congress knows about it. And they're outraged I mean; they really are. And they want to do something. HSC 28, Both commanders are very corrupt, and hardly anybody has come forward with this. They witnessed Brandon get abused, and they did nothing. Their fellow service member is dead and they don't share. That bothers us more than anything.
Marissa: Brandon story gets even more complicated, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Teri and Patrick are working tirelessly to give Brandon the Justice he deserves. You can hear the passion in Patrick's voice when he speaks. They are a very inspiring duo. And they're going to make major changes to the treatment of service members. Tune in here to hear the rest of this heart wrenching interview, I promise the content gets lighter.
Everybody's story is a little bit different. Nobody has gone through exactly what you have. And although that can make us feel alone, know that by speaking out, you're inspiring others do the same writing a book is what gave me my start on this journey. I decided that even though I didn't feel that my story was as awful as what others experienced. If I could help one other person process and heal from what they experienced. It was worth telling. And it did. I received a ton of support and private messages from people who felt inspired and empowered by me speaking my truth. If you have a story that you want to share, I would love to help you start this journey. The people who have endured sexual assault and domestic violence all have the same notion. They just don't want anyone else to feel the way they did. We want to support everyone. Do yourself and our community service and consider writing your story or contributing it to my breaking through the silence series. your words and your voice are powerful, and your story can help others heal from their abuse. If you're interested, please send me an email to me at MarissaFayecohen.com and I would be thrilled to work with you on breaking your silence. Thank you so much.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Recently, we've been talking to a lot of people that work with military or were military, in response to IAmVanessaGuillen and MST the problems that were happening at Fort Hood and throughout the military. So today, I wanted to bring on a coalition member of mine and a friend Traci Sharpe, she's a mom of four, a grandma of one, a champion and an advocate. She works primarily with domestic violence and sexual assault victims. She's worked for the Marine Corps since 2011, as a Content Developer, and Training Specialist. She's here today because she thinks it's important to talk about sexual misconduct in the workplace. She wants people to know that they are not alone. And she would like to be a voice for the voiceless. Welcome, Traci, thank you so much for coming on today.
Traci: Hi, Marissa. Thanks for having me.
Marissa: Of course, I'm so happy that you're here! So let's get started. Would you mind telling us your story?
Traci: Yes. So as you mentioned, I worked for the Marine Corps since 2011. In 2013, I became the victim of MST sexual harassment. Through that very difficult time, and you know, my case is still moving, so it hasn't been resolved. But what I learned through that process was to manage my expectations, because there is, you know, a series of cover ups. There's a system in place that protects the creditor, and not the actual victim, which was really difficult for me because as someone who worked in behavioral health, who worked with sexual assault, who worked with victims of domestic violence, it was unbelievable, what happens.
Marissa: Are you comfortable or able to tell us what happened or no?
Traci: Absolutely, I can. So I was actually the head of a training team. And around 2013, the organization decided there needed to be a reset. So they needed more Greenside representation — meaning that Marines needed to be more present in the training field. So when we would go out to not only train but to collect information, there needed to be more than just civilians. There needed to be Marines, so that the Marines felt comfortable. And so around that time, they brought in a Marine who had previously been a colleague. We had a decent working rapport. So it wasn't a friendship, it was just someone that I knew. And things got a little sticky there. So in hindsight, I can see where the grooming began. And I can see where the enablers inserted themselves. But I can tell you what's going on. It was in the newspaper, it was all over the news. The harassment turned to threats. And those threats caused some issues for me professionally and personally. So that marine after a series of investigations and cover ups, finally, he was seen before Board of Inquiry, and the board found him guilty in October of 2018. And it took the Marine Corps until February of 2020, to actually separate him, according to the board's recommendations.
Marissa: That's disgusting. So after he was found guilty of harassment and sexual misconduct, he was still in his position for…
Traci: For 14 months.
Marissa: That's disgusting. So he was totally protected. And meanwhile, what were you going through?
Traci: In the beginning, I just asked for a safety plan. And the Marine Corps refused to draft, one give, one or enforce one. So I even had my attorney sends documentation and also a request and it was ignored. Eventually, it became too much for me to be on the base and I went on workman's comp. With that being said, the Marine Corps after 11 months decided they wanted to pull the workman's comp and have me go back to work with him. And that was just not an option for me. So as you know, I have not worked since or had a paycheck or any income coming in since March of 2019. So while he was able to get a master's degree, and stay in his uniform, and stay at one active duty until he was able to retire, I on the other hand, I've had my entire life dismantled and basically been sold to put it back together.
Marissa: That's not okay. That's very perpetrator-centered.
Traci: Exactly. And that was one of the reasons I wanted to speak out because I don't want other victims to feel like whatever they're experiencing, they're alone. There are a lot of tactics that are used, and a lot of narratives that are employed. So, you know, there's a lot of gaslighting. There's a lot that goes on with it. And I remember at one time, and not to be too graphic, but to let you know, with him showing me his penis, I was asked whether or not it was a mistake. Whether I actually saw what I saw. And for me, that is just that's the disgusting part is being questioned all the time.
Marissa: Right. You're the one that's being really investigated when they were the one that was accused.
Traci: Absolutely.
Marissa: Wow, that's like equivalent to asking a victim what they were wearing.
Traci: Oh, I was asked that.
Marissa: Were you?
Traci: Yes. So I was asked… The series of questions that I was asked are just beyond disgusting.
Marissa: And you think that with social media and people blowing that up, and they've even had parts of museums, like exhibits of museums centered around these stupid questions, you'd think that they would get the hint to stop asking them. Because they're not relevant. What else could you have possibly seen?
Traci: Right. One would think that would be the case, but it isn't. So the one thing I want to point out is, you know, my experience with the military — uniforms can be really intoxicating. And I can remember even being on hiring panels where I felt like if we hired an individual, they were just ripe for abuse. You know? Because of the fact that uniforms are intoxicating. And there are a lot of people who can't separate one from the other. So the loyalty is to the uniform, not to morals, not to values, not to individuals. And you find a lot of leaders that really just want to get in and get out. They don't see that there's anything wrong with what's going on. And as a matter of fact, there was a general in my case, who even caught the conversation around the sexual harassment. The crude and nasty comments he made were referred to as frat boy humor. And it isn't funny.
Marissa: I think that rank also plays a huge part in it. I've been talking to people now for a couple weeks about what they've experienced in the military, or working with the military, and leaders, and generals, and commanders taking advantage of their rank. Knowing that the people that they harass or abuse that are under them, or below them in rank, it's going to end up coming back up to them anyways. They're kind of stuck.
Traci: Yes.
Marissa: And that's a total abuse of power.
Traci: It really is. And I think it's so subtle at times, it isn't recognized. And that's why I'm a proponent of even prosecuting the enablers. Because this isn't a crime that is committed solo. There are people that help these perpetrators. They cover for them, they encourage the behavior in a lot of ways.
Marissa: Silence is encouragement, you know? If you see a battle buddy, or you see somebody —a brother or sister in uniform, doing something bad, or doing something inappropriate or sexual, then say something. And it's unfortunate because there are policies in place that you protect each other. And that kind of protects the perpetrators, doesn't it?
Traci: It's supposed to. And I will tell you this. You know, there are a lot of policies in place, and we can read them all day long. If no one enforced system, they are nonexistent. And that's what happens a lot of times is that it becomes more so about protecting your buddy than it is about enforcing the policy and protecting everyone else.
Marissa: Do you still work for the Marines?
Traci: I am in the process of phasing out at this point. I have an active EEO case, pending. And once that is done, I will phase out and work on my nonprofit, which is Which Narrative. So that was the other thing. In 2019, I began Which Narrative, and that was to help victims identify where they fall in the process. One of the things I can tell you is that I knew who I was prior to this happening. All the ambitions, goals and everything else that I had, the dreams I had for myself, I can tell you exactly what they were. I can tell you that my voice was lost in this ordeal. And afterwards, I'm a completely different person. And so rather than being told who I am, rather than being judged, and rather than buying into the things that were said, “What was she wearing? What type of perfume did she have on? Was she seductive towards you in any way?” Changing that narrative to say that I am an adult woman. I'm a professional first and foremost. And I know how to conduct myself in a workplace. So unfortunately, victims are taught to believe that they're the ones that are in error. So if you wear a button down shirt, maybe you should have had on a turtleneck, you know? Or if you wear a skirt that comes to your knees, you should have had one down to your ankles. And it's just one of those things where we have to change the dialogue, we have to change the narrative.
Marissa: I love that. So when you were going through the whole mess with being investigated, and even after he was found guilty, and he was still there, what did you do to keep yourself sane; to heal; to process?
Traci: So I'm a big proponent for mental health. And I knew I needed to speak to someone because it was beyond the bandwidth of family, friends, and even people who were supportive. I needed professional help. I've been diagnosed with PTSD, anxiety, social anxiety, and also depression. So I knew that it wasn't a lifestyle I wanted to live. I had to find someone that could help me with those coping mechanisms, or helped me, give me the tools I needed so that I could cope, and still be the person that I was called to be.
Marissa: That's amazing. So you went to therapy?
Traci: Yes, I did. Yes.
Marissa: That's phenomenal. I'm really proud of you being first of all, open and honest with me and listeners to your mental health. I think that more people talking about it will have less of a stigma and less of like a taboo conversation. Does that make sense?
Traci: It does, it absolutely does. And I will say this. I heard a long time ago that victims become the best actors and actresses you'll meet. And it didn't make sense to me then. And it made sense to me, after it impacted my life so heavily. Because you get to a place where you get up and you smile long enough to accomplish whatever you need to accomplish. Like I said, I'm raising — I have four children, and I have two minors at this point. And you can't parent from being in bed, you know. I couldn't parent on the couch. I couldn't hide from the sun. You know, they're active, and they're involved. And so you get to a place where you smile long enough to go do what you need to do. And then you get back and you're like, “Ah, now I can pull the curtains and hide from the sun.” And so I want other people to know, it's okay to not be okay. And the only way to get through that is to get the help that’s needed. Don't ever think that something is wrong with you when you need help. You need it and seek it out. And I'm all for it.
Marissa: Absolutely. As part of my healing program, my coaching program, the fourth step is finding resources that work for you. So therapy is amazing. And it helps a lot of people, but it might not help everyone. And so finding those things, and those techniques and those activities that do help you cope beyond the smile, and try and go on with your day until you can hide, finding the things that help you work through that is really, really important. So what advice would you give to survivors who experienced something similar to what you did?
Traci: So I would say manage your expectations. That's one of the biggest things that I've pushed, because I think we expect people to understand what's going on with us. And we expect the support. And there are a lot of people that don't know how. So I would say manage your expectations. Find a solid support system for yourself. And it's okay to interchange those people. Like I have one person that I'll call when I'm having a great day. Someone else I'll call when I'm slipping. And then there's someone that I talked to when I've made a fall. That will be the second thing. And just make sure you're listening to yourself, your gut tells you what you need. And let's not ignore what our guts tell us, and make sure that we're being true to ourselves.
Marissa: I really like that you touched on that you have certain people that you turn to in certain situations. That's really important. You know, knowing who you have around you as a resource. Who can be there for you in a moment of need. I would love for anyone listening to sit down right now and think about three people in your life that you can call when you're feeling depressed; when you're feeling anxious; when you're feeling triggered, that you trust, that you know will be there to support you.
Traci: Yes, it's really important in to have those people on hand. So forward thinking is the other thing. I think that a lot of times we get to a place where we think we're okay. And we say okay, we're beyond this. It won't happen. But what we forget, or what we aren't aware of is that there are a lot of times when we're triggered, and just out of nowhere, you know. There are times when I can see someone in uniform and I'm triggered, and not that they've done anything to me, but it brings it back, you know?
Marissa: Yeah, absolutely. It might not be like a full on panic attack. But if your heart starts racing, there's so many different signs of being triggered or being traumatized. You know, it manifests in so many different ways that being self-aware enough to recognize those and then make a phone call to somebody.
Traci: Yes, absolutely. One of the things I wanted to touch on was to make sure that people aren't allowing themselves to be minimized. One of the challenges I faced was, because it was a non-penetrative event, I was told there was no trauma associated with it. And so I want to make sure the other thing is that, you know, we're not minimizing these experiences and the impact they have on us.
Marissa: Yeah, absolutely. I'm so happy. You said that. All the time, people will call me or write to me and say, oh, well, you know, my experience wasn't as bad as somebody else's. You know, I wasn't like actually raped or assaulted. It doesn't matter. I love that you said that Traci, because it really it doesn't need to be penetrative. In order for it to be traumatizing.
Traci: Absolutely. Excellent. We're on the same page. Absolutely. And, you know, these instances, there are lifelong consequences. So I know that I have to, for the rest of my life, have a plan in place, because I never know when I'm going to need that support system. Or when I'll need to be back in therapy, or when I need to modify the way I eat, or whatever it is I'm doing in my life. I know that for the rest of my life, I will have to take inventory of where I am, what's going on around me and who I can reach out to.
Marissa: And I'm glad to hear that you have people around you that you feel supported by and that empower you and help you overcome all those things that you've endured.
Traci: Thank you. And I thank you because you're one of them. Thank you.
Marissa: I appreciate that. Thank you. Is there anything else that you want to talk about that I didn't ask about?
Traci: No, I think we've covered it. I'll just reiterate. Reach out, manage your expectations and reach out. We believe you. We have a solid support system. Never let anyone minimize you or your experience and just know that there are other people out there ready to support.
Marissa: I love it. And I cannot wait to see the amazing things that you do with Which Narrative. As soon as that's up and running. Please let me know we can collaborate on something with my nonprofit. I think you do like a big initiative or something.
Tracy: Yes.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today, I wanted to get into how music and the music industry is impacted by sexual assault. I know that over the course of the last couple years, actors came out and spoke out about their abuse, and singers and musicians, and also fans of bands who were being abused and assaulted by the bands. So today, I brought on an expert in the music industry, who is also my best friend, also a radio DJ for a major station, and also the producer of this podcast. The accolades just keep building. So, welcome to Healing From Emotional Abuse Brian Morelli. He's a multi-instrumentalist, musician in the Jersey Shore music area. He's probably been in about 300 bands since I've known him. He's currently the music director for a major radio station, and has 15 years of music industry experience. Welcome Brian Morelli. I'm so happy you're here today.
Brian: Thank you very much, It's actually 248 bands.
Marissa: I just round up to the nearest 100.
Brian: Thanks for having me on. This is really cool.
Marissa: Of course, thank you for being here. And for everything that you do for me and for the podcast. You're awesome. So, let's chat music industry. So, over the course of the last couple years, a lot of bands have been called out for inappropriate sexual behavior. And that's kind of where I want to start. And as a music industry expert, I would love your take on that.
Brian: Oh, sure. Yes, of course. I mean, it's really nothing new in the music industry. Since the era of popular music had started, you had this perfect storm mix of abuse of influence, potentially substances, wealth, fame, and that is nothing new. That can arguably start with Jerry Lee Lewis and go up until now, in the past few years. And this is not to negate anything in the film industry. But the first outing of Harvey Weinstein from a lot of the survivors who have had experiences with him, that kind of started this snowball effect of the entertainment industry and people in the entertainment industry, who have abused their influence. So, it's really nothing new specifically in music. And recently, specifically, very, very recently, maybe the most notable case would be Dr. Luke, the producer who infamously worked with Kesha. And the whole lawsuit that had followed that. And Marissa, I know you know all about that.
Marissa: Oh, yeah. No, I definitely followed that case. And Praying, Kesha’s single that she released about her abuse is by far one of my favorited songs. It's just liked a power anthem for survivors.
Brian: Right? Yes. And so, to put it very broadly, the theme of power comes up in sexual assault, as you've defined many times before on here, and I’ll ask you to do that, again. But also that power in individuals in the music industry, not just in performers, but like producers like Dr. Luke and label executives, people who say, Hey, I could promise you all these things. Basically, ‘Harvey Weinstein’s' of the music industry. Many of them have not dealt with the repercussions yet. And that's still to come. But it's happening, you know, the dominoes are falling.
Marissa: Thank goodness! Because that, like you mentioned, they just they have such a hold on these performers, and on the people, who are aspiring performers, that it's so easy for them to take advantage and hold their career over their head. Because the producers and the agents and the managers, they have all the power. Dr. Luke literally had Kesha and tons of other pop artists, lives and livelihoods and careers in his hand. And would threaten to crush their careers and would threaten to end everything that they were building and working towards, if they didn't do certain things for him. And I know with Kesha, she said that he drugged her and raped her. So, she really didn't even have a memory of it. But that is abuse of power in its most infant form.
Brian: Yeah, I totally agree.
Marissa: So, thank you for bringing that up. I know that you and I have had conversations in the past, because you're a big metal fan, and I think you know where I'm going with this.
Brian: Okay, yes.
Marissa: Do you remember the band, I think it was Decapitated?
Brian: Yeah, that is. That's a very bizarre case. Because there are a lot of behind closed doors, legalities that I think went down with the band Decapitated, specifically. But the story was they're doing a North American tour, they were on the West coast, they were in Washington State, I believe it was. They played a show, now they're from overseas — they're a Polish band. And when they were playing a show, the story was that they had invited one or two female fans onto their tour bus after the show. And the story goes, that the entire band took part in the rape of one of those fans. The entire band denied it. They were held in an American jail. And then just one day, they were let go, and they were brought back to Poland, they were freed, and all the charges were dropped. So, there's a big chunk of the of the middle of that story that is missing. And that hasn't been brought back. Something else from the rock and metal world, I do want to actually bring up. There is a kind of an umbrella sub genre in rock and metal right now. It's somewhere between metal core and pop punk. It's a little bit emo. And those are bands that their target demographic is basically teens and early 20s. And that is a very weird chemistry that I did want to bring up. Those are bands with young fans, and they know that they are being marketed to young fans. That's also a style of music that isn't terribly mainstream. So, when these bands are signed, and they get into the music industry, they're in a really small, rather independent section of the music industry. Small record labels and stuff like that. So, with these bands that are smaller, but have some underground notoriety, they might have really active social media, but their record labels might not have the resources to hire a social media coordinator. So, the bands, the band members themselves, are policing their own social media accounts. So, when you have music that's really emotive, and it connects with young people in a really visceral way, where it kind of brings out this emotional response through its lyrics, and you have a thinly veiled social media presence where any fan can say, Hey, I love your music and tend to one, a member is going to respond saying, Hey, thank you very much, a conversation can ensue from that. So, there have been bands that have been brought down, specifically over the past month, oddly enough, by fans who some were underaged, some weren't. But they say that, hey, this member solicited pictures. This member sent pictures. This member engaged in lewd acts. And a lot of those members are dealing with the consequences now.
Marissa: I mean, I wish I could say I'm surprised. I'm just more disgusted. As an artist, right, The whole purpose of making music is all self expression. So, I guess I wonder if the being signed gives them like a power feeling? Or if they're just gross individuals to begin with? If you know that your target market is young, why would you even engage in that way? And the answer is power and control. People don't send lewd pictures, because they want people to see their genitalia. It's a shock value thing. I mean, I've received my fair share of unsolicited pictures of guys. And it was never because that person was genuinely interested in me. It was because they wanted me to feel a certain way. And they knew that sending that picture would make me feel that way. So, I guess I just don't understand why that behavior isn't met with consequences. Like what happens to these bands that are caught doing that stuff.
Brian: Right now, we are in such an interesting era of accountability. Certainly a new era of accountability and people, people call it cancel culture, which certainly has its pitfalls. And I'm not denying that for a second. But when you've got fans who are coming forward with their stories, and you then have a legion of fans who are supporting that person and believe in that person's story. It's a very powerful thing. There was a band who is very underground, but in that scene, that metal core scene. I don't think they're very good personally, but they're called Homewrecker. And a lot of allegations, and very serious allegations came against their lead singer. Came against, actually, a couple of members of that band. But most seriously toward their lead singer. Well, the entire band imploded. Not only did the band implode from all the heat that they got, just from their fans saying, how could you engage and stuff like this. But their record label is getting heat from the fans, the fans are turning to the record label saying, how could you have signed this band? Now, you could say the record label probably didn't know. The record label might have known but still, that's the representation of that label that, that band is acting like that. Not only that, that lead singer of that band, worked as a roadie for a much bigger metal band called Black Veil Brides. That band is getting heat from the fans, because they're saying how could you still have had this guy employed as a roadie. Dude doesn't even play a single note, he carries the cases. How could you employ and pay a roadie who does stuff like that? Cancel culture is a very powerful thing. At times that power can be misguided. That's a conversation for another time. I think that we're seeing a dawning of people believing the survivors, as opposed to taking the side of the “heroes.”
Marissa: And I think that that's so important. I’m really happy about that. And I'm happy that you've said it. I am thrilled, every time I go on Twitter, and look up #speakingout for the wrestling industry. And #metoo. Every time I look up those hashtags. Now, it's not met with anger and victim blaming. I mean, it still is sometimes, but the vast majority of people are supporting and empowering and advocating for survivors. I can't speak on this particular topic, because I'm not in the music industry. But I've been doing a lot of research in the wrestling industry. It's really quite beautiful that people are posting for other people that are afraid to come forward. You know, I have a friend who was impacted by speak out for the wrestling world. And that person is afraid to speak out for fear of retaliation. So a ton of their friends posted for them. And I think that, that camaraderie and that advocacy is so powerful. And back to the topic at hand, I'm so happy with this cancelled culture, Because I tend to side with survivors and champions if they speak their truth, I know that that's not easy to do. And so, I'm more apt to believe them, than side with an abuser. Does that make sense?
Brian: Yes. Oh, yeah, of course, there are still some gray areas and many stories that may have come up and may have disappeared mysteriously like that band Decapitated from before. One that comes to mind, and this happened a few years ago. This was one of the stories that kind of directly followed the Harvey Weinstein, the Kevin Spacey. this was during that timeline of events. The hard rock vocalist Maynard James Keenan, who's from the band Tool, and A Perfect Circle, and a few others. A very big front man, widely known in that world and in that universe, and there was one very, very detailed story of backstage abuse and sexual assault that he had committed against her. And I think one other story came out, it was so detailed, I never forgot it. And he was quick to come out and deny that and say, almost kind of laugh and shrug it off. Saying this is a pathetic money grab attempt. And then it all disappeared. And that's not the only occurrence that happens, an uncounted amount of times in the music industry, and I never forgot that person's story. And it might be completely unsubstantiated. But I never forgot it. So now when I listen to Tool, and I'm going to get to this in a second, because I do still listen to them. I do still listen to him. That is always in the back of my mind And I don't know how legitimate it is.
Marissa: So, yes, to everything. Yes. It's really that I think the fact that you heard the story, right, and then it disappeared in thin air is very telling, because that happens so much when people that are famous and with money are accused, right? Money Talks. And it's easier to pay someone off in silence them than it is to face reality go to trial. So, a lot of people will settle, either settle outside of court or try and pay them off. The accusers-off to stop telling their story or some of them are threatened with legal action or threatened that their lives or their families will be in danger. I mean, it's really disgusting, what happens when people speak out. And like we said before, generally people were always more apt to believe the “hero” or the “lead singer” or “the drummer” or, and that's why the stories just go away. And everyone just automatically assumes they were lying It's easy to write it off as a false report, which is why rape culture and victim blaming are so rampant.
Brian: Yes, of course. And it's rampant in the, in the music industry, certainly, you know, you have this sphere of influence, you have amazing technology. I mean, mind blowing technology that beats fan mail from 40 years ago. You can message somebody on Twitter or Instagram, some platform even TikTok now. And if you get that split second of that hero recognized what you said, that’s almost an addictive feeling for fans. And people who can want to interact, seek out more interactions with people with this influence. I think it kind of comes down to and I hate to arrive at this finish line. But I think it kind of comes down to people in show business and performers have to hold themselves accountable. Sounds easy. And it should be that easy. That's not without its pitfalls.
Marissa: I think we live in a very deny, deny culture, right? We're innocent until proven guilty. And all that jazz. I mean, I was taught growing up, if I'm in a car accident, never take responsibility for it. And I think that that is kind of ingrained in us, right? We never want to be at fault for anything. We never want to be held accountable for anything, because it'll just get us into trouble. But we do need to check ourselves. And we need to hold ourselves accountable for our actions. And we need to be held accountable by friends and family. And so how do we change that culture? Like how, what can we do to make it so that people hold each other accountable? I think that's like, the key to fixing rape culture.
Brian: Yeah, it should be as straightforward as lead by example. There are other musicians, there are other performers in show business who do just as much calling out as some of these people on the receiving end. I mean, it's not all bad. It's not all evil, there are good people. And there are responsible people in show business. And we would probably just have to see more public action, more statements. Listen, people aren't afraid of record labels anymore, because record labels don't hold the key to success anymore. They used to. And we're so brainwashed from that mindset that is decades old. But we don’t, nobody needs record labels anymore. So, a record label might have some sort of financial leverage on, “Hey, if you speak out, there are consequences.” But it's all survivable, the implications, the consequences, they are not as great as the moral consequences that could come from not reporting something. Not observing something and being vocal about it.
Marissa: I think more people need to be made an example of. I think that once we start actually holding people accountable, and giving like reasonable consequences and jail sentences for people who do sexually assault. the FBI qualifies rape as the second most violent crime behind homicide. So why isn't it given the same clout? Right? When you say homicide, or you hear the word homicide, you get chills? When you say or hear the word rape. It's almost met with like, a shrug of disbelief, right? Like, that doesn't really happen. And we know it does. You know, it's now more common to talk about than ever before, but it's still not worth coming forward or seeking some sort of legal action about because it's still not taken seriously in that domain. So, I want to shift topics. I know that in the last couple years, a lot of artists have released songs about women empowerment or sexual assault and how not to do it. Like Keith Urban's song, Female, is probably one of the best in my opinion, not only because I'm a big Keith Urban fan, but he also is a big advocate for domestic violence. It's like one of his main causes. Him and his wife, Nicole Kidman are big advocates for domestic violence survivors. But there are other artists that are putting out beautiful songs to help empower people to speak out and break their silence. So, do you think thing that will shift any mindsets, or do you think that'll make a difference?
Brian: Artistry is so subjective. So, it's a matter of what somebody is inspired by, in the moment to write a song like that. In artists like Keith Urban, he's brave enough to do that. And he would do well. And he would sell it well. Not sell being like crude financially mean that he would sell that subject matter. Well, he's believable.
Marissa: And he's genuine.
Brian: Yeah, totally. That is a big challenge for artists to be genuine about a field that maybe they don't have personal experience in. It takes trying and it takes wanting to do that. Action in artistry is always welcome. It's always, I think, greeted with some sort of praise. Risk taking is there. Might go against some commercial goals. But I kind of don't care about that.
Marissa: Right? You I think you're the one that told me that Praying was submitted for a single on the Billboard, whatever chart, and it didn't even break the top 30. But Praying is such a power song. And I mean, look at Till It Happens To You by Lady Gaga, I don't even think it broke top 100. But that song, God, it's so raw and honest and beautiful.
Brian: What's a bit problematic from there would be radio airplay. A lot of the charts are dictated by radio plays, and that is left up to radio programmers and a lot of them think about music very differently than the artists world. It's very objective. It's an objective way of looking at music, which can be infuriating. There's a way to finesse that though. But somebody who programs let's just say a pop station, they want the most up tempo, upbeat songs to keep their listeners engaged. So, when a pop artist like Kesha comes out with this inchworm — slow ballad, as powerful as Praying is as a song, you've got a legion of radio program is going oh my god. And from the radio side, I get why they're saying that. I'm in the country world. And when we got Female by Keith Urban, I have to say we said the same thing We're like, Oh, geez. But do you want your station to stand for that? Some programmers do some don't. And there introduces a new topic that could be problematic of silence
Marissa: 100% And by not getting the songs out to the people that need to hear them, you're doing a disservice to survivors, to the community to the artists. And I understand on one hand, a programmer’s perspective. Yes, the whole purpose of a radio station and making it profitable is to provide what the constituents and what the listeners want. So, you know, when you're driving a car, you don't want to hear a power ballad that's going to make you cry, you want to hear party rocking in the house, you're like, I understand that. But the part that you said where it, it's like silencing people. It's exactly the opposite of what all of these current movements, and all of these artists are trying to do.
Brian: Yeah, you're right. The music industry, and specifically, the radio industry is very mechanical in that sort of way with the music that comes out. And for a music radio station, whether it be Top 40, or Rock, or whatever the format is. On music radio station, the only product that they have is the music. That is the product. So, a lot of programmers look at that and say why take a chance on that. You'll see the potential of somebody, maybe not liking a song and tuning out. It's a very crude way of doing business. And the victims in that case, are the survivors who are being under represented.
Marissa: You're totally right. You know, the people who are really kind of getting the short end of the stick are the survivors that need to hear those songs.
Brian: It's unfortunate just how many artists over the years, over the entire era of 20th and 21st century popular music, how many artists have been problematic and how survivors don't have representation in music. It's easier to think of problematic artists. An R&B singer, a legendary R&B singer Sam Cooke, people don't remember how big of a piece of shit he was.
Marissa: Really?
Brian: Yeah. A history of sexual assault. Instances of rape that may have gone undocumented. He was killed in a shooting. He was at a motel with a young female fan. And he was being forceful, sexually, and then ultimately, it turned into an attempted rape. And the manager of the motel intervened with a firearm, and that's how he ultimately died — Sam Cooke. But people don't remember that. A lot of people just remember the music. It's a very rose-colored glasses sort of industry. And there are celebrities outside of the music industry right now, where their past isn't really being addressed as problematic. Arnold Schwarzenegger has a very tattered history. Many instances of sexual assault throughout the years. A horribly abusive marriage and now he's one of the biggest personalities on TikTok. Gen. Z doesn’t remember that. That's 20 years before Gen. Z, and they're not doing the research. So, I think we really need to examine who we follow.
Marissa: Right and make those histories stick. Clearly. I mean, I was aware of a bunch of the horrible things that Arnold Schwarzenegger did. The problem was he was never held accountable. It came up, it disappeared. But if we do the right thing as a society, and hold these people who are doing horrible, horrible things accountable, then you continue to hear about it. Like you will never not know that Hitler was a bad person. I don't care if you're born in the year 3000. It'll still be known that Hitler was a bad person. Why are we not defaming these people's characters enough that it sticks? We know that Jeffrey Epstein's a bad person? Right? There's a documentary about it, there are legal documents about it He was a horrible person. But I bet you in 10 years, people don't remember that. I'm sure they won't even remember him. But his crimes and the horrible things he did, should be remembered. Because when we forget history, it's doomed to repeat itself. Right? If we don't remember history, it's doomed to repeat itself. So, by not talking about it and not making a huge stink, that sticks, that's when we're doing a disservice to the younger generations like Gen. Z, who don't know the horrible things that Arnold Schwarzenegger did. Or Sam Cooke. That needs to be like, legendary status of these are bad people don't look up to them.
Brian: Yeah, yes, you're right. There's an interesting section of this conversation that can turn into how much of it do we tolerate? Can we separate art from artists? Sometimes you can and that's what I wanted to bring up. I'll reintroduce Maynard James Keenan and Tool. I can still listen to them But I'll always think about one person's story. And it might not even be real, I don't know. But I've got a tough time listening to Sam Cooke now. I know that that's real. Stand-up comedy is its own world. And you can have eight separate episodes about that. The most recent being Chris Delia, notably unfunny, and the big fallout in the past couple of weeks of his social media interactions with underage fans. So, I think it can become a less of a conversation about the severity of the crime, and just the fact that it was committed.
Marissa: Right. I love that. And I think that you and I should do a couple more episodes scattered about comedians and about separating art from artists. Because you and Mike Sellari, who came on a while ago, to talk about movies about narcissism, are really good at that, you can still listen to those people and recognize they were bad people but also like, remember their past but still listen to their music. And enjoy their music, or their comedy, or whatever. I am not the person that can do that. I was a huge Kevin Spacey fan and now I am a huge kill Kevin Spacey fan. And I mean that along with various others. I have a very difficult time separating the art from the artist, because I think that your art is a self-expression of who you are. So, when Louie C.K. was joking about jerking off in front of people, like his staff, he was actually doing it. That wasn't a separation of art and artist. But that is a separate conversation for a separate podcast episode that we can and should do if you want to.
Brian: Yeah, of course, I mean that that's an easy power move. You got to assume and I will safely assume that Louie C.K. probably went backstage after that set and said to a friend, “Hey, I literally just told my truth to everybody and I will never suffer any consequences.” There's arrogance in that and there's arrogance, obviously in power and in show business as well. Separating art from artists is difficult. It is so difficult. It kind of depends on a bunch of different variables. It depends on what the art is. It also depends on the severity of the crime. There are still people who can watch The Cosby Show reruns. I don't get it. That escapes me completely, because the allegations against the person are so serious, that how does that not infiltrate your mind? For some people, it doesn't. And okay. I have a tough time I mean; I can still watch reruns of Seinfeld and a mid 90s Jerry Seinfeld was involved in a consensual relationship with a 17-year-old. And that's the thing. When you have to use an age of consent law to justify your actions. The issue is already outside of that justification.
Marissa: Right. I mean, listen, I'm not trying to judge anybody else's lifestyle. You like who you like, but if you're in your 30s, or 40s, and you're interested in a teenage person, I mean, that, to me, seems like an error. Like a computer error, right? It's like a glitch. Why are you attracted to somebody that is so much younger than you. And fine age of consent laws, those were created for marriages. Back in the day, like, I don't want this to sound shitty, but like, I'll never understand it. I had friends in high school when we were 16 and 17 that were dating 26- and 28-year-old. And I, to this day, don't understand that because I'm 29 right now. And I could never find somebody who's that young, sexually attractive. Not only are we not on the same maturity plane, and I know this is anecdotal evidence, but you're in a different life. You know, aeons ahead of just in wisdom, that person. I look at 16- and 17-year old’s, his children, you know. They still have so much growing to do and learning to do and I could never imagine myself being in a sexual relationship with them in any way.
Brian: It's just an educated guess, really. But I hate to bring up potentially the unfair assumption into this, but I think it might not even be an issue of physical attraction to a younger person. I think it's more of a physical attraction to the influence. It's more of a power trip. It's an influence trip that you can get over somebody who's younger. And it's getting off on ageism, and that is weird. And that is gross. And that is murky.
Marissa: Right. I agree. And going back to separation of art and artist. I didn't know that about Jerry Seinfeld. I've also never really been a fan of Seinfeld the show. And I get flack for that constantly. But a point of contention between Larry and I, for anyone who doesn't know Larry's my boyfriend, and he's a big Derrick Rose fan. And he's, you know, a big Kobe fan and those two people were also accused. He loves movies, like I do, but he like you, separates the art from the artist. And so, Ben Affleck Big point of contention for us because Ben Affleck is in so many amazing movies that I can't in good faith watch because he sexually assaulted a news anchor. He knew about Harvey Weinstein and didn't speak up or say anything. And he openly admitted that he said, yeah, we all knew. It was like a boy’s club and for me, that's disgusting. You know, if you know that he is hurting so many people and you do nothing about it. You are equally as accountable. You are equally as guilty.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah, of course. In the film industry, there is a decade's old mentality of Hollywood is untouchable. The biggest people there are untouchable. Harvey Weinstein can break you if he really wanted to. He can Absolutely. He can erase your career from existence make it like you never even were born. And people in Hollywood were so afraid of that. And I'm sure there are still big individuals that people are still afraid of. There's the fear of the consequences of outing somebody. There's also this whole arrogance of, Yeah, we're an exclusive club, and you can't touch us. But again, I truly believe we're in a new era of accountability. And I am so optimistic about that. I again, will reiterate that I think cancel culture needs a bit of a tweaking, but the hearts are in the right place. And I truly believe we're going to see famous people benefit more from showcasing a moral compass than not.
Marissa: I agree, and I truly hope so. I love everything that you’re saying, I want cancel culture to be beneficial and productive. And I want people who are bad people — who hurt people on purpose, to be held accountable for their actions. Like, I don't think that's such a big ask. If somebody's murder somebody, they're held accountable. If somebody, robs somebody, they're held accountable. If somebody breaks into your home, they're held accountable. So why is somebody forcing themselves on a person taking away their control, violating their personal space, psychologically damaging people. Like, why doesn't that hold the same weight as property and as murder? I mean, by doing such horrible acts, you're changing a person. You're literally retraining their brain to believe that they are not good enough. That they are objects. That they are unworthy. Like, that is so powerful, but that's less investigated, and has less clout than somebody breaking into my house and stealing my TV. Why? You know, and I hope that the world is changing And I see the world starting to change on Twitter and I, mentioned this in several podcasts, but I am so proud of Gen. Z, and the younger generations, because they are moving mountains, right now, faster than any other generation. They are the trolls. They are the people that are the most accepting and tolerant and loving and doing everything they can to create the world that I wanted to grow up in, and didn't have the know-how, or the resources. I'm like, honored to be advocating for them, and to be alive in the time that they are doing such great work. And so, I just want to say thank you, to everybody who's using the internet responsibly and using it to promote beautiful societal changes. Thank you. That is so important. And it's impactful. And whatever backlash you get, no, it comes from a place of fear, and loss of control. And that you guys are doing the right thing and on the right path. And I am here to support anything and everything that you guys are doing and saying. And you have a good chunk of millennials that will stand with you.
Brian: I like to think that we’re hopefully the last passive generation, us millennials. And I wish I could frame everything you just said Gen. Z has it going on. Really, Gen. Z. They are the generation that is actually idolizing a higher moral compass and they are the ones pushing for personal accountability. You know what, if Dr. Luke was working right now and Kesha happened, it would be a swift eraser of anything Dr. Luke has ever done. And Praying worked. It really did. And Kesha’s actions absolutely worked. But not after Dr. Luke had his run of the music industry and people in it. So, Kesha’s not the only person there. He's got countless victims, unfortunately. And it took a long, long, long ass time to get him out of the industry. Because he had such influence. He held every major hit from the past, like 15 years, from 2016 back, that he probably owned a third of the popular music industry. That's how powerful he was. And it took so long to take him down. But if that was going on today, it would barely take a week and he'd be gone. And that is Gen. Z's actions, and people who are tech savvy and who do wish for better and push for it. Millennials, my own generation, my goodness, am I disappointed at how passive we are. But hey, it's okay. We've got kids to take care of so.
Marissa: No, I agree. And, you know, I almost wish more people that Dr. Luke hurt would come forward, because they're coming forward into a world that will coddle them. You know, I know that when Kesha was trying to get out of her Sony contract, Adele donated a huge chunk of money, and so did Taylor Swift, and a bunch of other female artists who worked under Dr. Luke. Kelly Clarkson even came out and spoke not against Dr. Luke but said that she's aware of happenings and didn't admit if anything happened to her or not, didn't disclose anything. But it's so telling just the support that she got, even though it was delayed. And I'm happy that Dr. Luke is out of the industry because of all the horrible things he did. But now it's time for everyone to speak out. Which is happening and I'm so happy to be alive for it. I just I want to see everything move faster now.
Brian: I truly believe it will I’m not just here spitting out optimism for the sake of it. I truly believe that we’re getting there. We’re getting there fast, too. A lot of those big-wigs in the industry, the big heads there, that had the power and control over the entertainment industry for the past few decades, their tenure is almost up. They’re getting out, and they’re getting out fast. Sometimes from the cutting of some disgraceful actions, and sometimes, just from age. But there is going to be a new wave of new people coming in, and I only feel optimistic about that.
Marissa: Me too. Is there anything else? Is there any other advice you want to give to survivors?
Brian: Yes. I mean, my advice for survivors is, don’t feel afraid to come forward. Marissa had said that you’ll be walking into a world of support. And those who don’t, they’re on the outs. The people who still believe in the “heroes”, that is an old mentality, and that mentality is being shifted. So, if you’re afraid of public opinion, I understand that. But there’s less to be afraid of now with that, than there may have been years ago.
Marissa: And if coming out is something that you want to do, or speaking out about your abuse, breaking your silence is something that you want to do publicly, but you’re afraid of the backlash, find me on Twitter @MarissaFCohen, and tag me in it. And the second somebody says something nasty, me and thousands of other people are going to shame them. And I am committed to that. That’s my favorite thing to do. To try and correct people who are victim blaming. That is also an option if that’s something that you want to do publicly but you’re afraid.
Brian: That is an incredible resource for people.
Marissa: So thank you so much for being here Brian. This was an awesome conversation that we’re probably going to split into several different podcasts. We covered a lot of topics. Thank you again so much for all the information, and the work you’re doing for survivors.
Brian: Thanks for having me on. This really was a blast.
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Rob: All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to a very special episode of the BCP / breaking through our silence podcast connection as we continue to breaking through the Speak Out movement with my tag team partner herself. Multiple-time Amazon award-winning Best-Selling Author, my good friend Miss Marissa Cohen. Marissa what's up?
Marissa: Hey, tag me in, how are you?
Rob: I'm good. There's no partner I'd rather have right now doing well, you know, as we say all things considered 2020 has been crazy. But we're doing what we can over here. And right now we're so I'm so honored to be talking to someone that I've honestly been a fan of for a while now, both in the ring, and on social media. And of course, we're so happy to welcome to the show a Pro Wrestler, Cosplayer, and a certified PHR. What a resume. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the show Miss Jen Casale. Jen, how are you?
Jen: I am doing well. How are you guys?
Rob: Doing well, all things considered. Yeah. But um, Jen, thanks so much for a few minutes of your time. You know, you do it all. Like I said, What a resume. First and foremost, you know, it's 2020. It's COVID World. How are you? How's the family making out? How are you doing right now?
Jen: We're doing pretty well. You know, things. I'm out in Philadelphia. So, things are kind of half open and half closed. And we're kind of doing what we can. We're getting in, you know, a little wrestling as socially distant as we can, when we can. And yeah, we're just we're trying to get by taking it day by day doing our best to stay safe.
Rob: Yeah, I think we all are more importantly, you say Philly. what is the best cheesesteak?
Jen: Ah, that's a tough one. Because everybody's going to tell you like Jim's or you know. They're like, everybody's taking you to the tourist spot. But there's a really good spot right outside of Philadelphia that I like a lot. That's called Leo's and it's out in Folcroft, PA. It's like, a mile out of the city limit.
Rob: Awesome. I know. I'm asking the hard-hitting questions already. But I'm a foodie, so, I got to know all the good spots in America tells me about the Chicago pizza and all that. But anyway, let's get to some real talk here, ladies. And again, Jen, thank you so much for your time You know, so let's start at the beginning here. You know, we see this hashtag speak out is hashtag speaking out. movement starts to trend on Twitter. Jen, I want to know your initial reaction. Were you surprised? Were you expecting this, I want to know your gut reaction here?
Jen: I was so happy; I was so happy. I mean, it's so sad and so happy all at the same time. I was really filled with a great mix of emotions, because I came into the Wrestling World probably about four years ago. And ever since I got here, I saw the need for this to happen. And I saw a couple people speak out here and there. And whenever would happen, it would get brushed under the rug. It would get shooed away those people would be the, “Difficult to work with.” They wouldn't get hired anymore. Which was really sad. But then it's this, that was like the whole dichotomy of like. Well, do you want to just kind of deal with this culture so that you can pursue this thing that you love? Or, you know, you know, or do you just like, stop and take a stand? So, for me, I waited a really long time. I'm very, very old to be in wrestling. But I waited a long time, because when I was young, the only option was to you know, I was working as a stunt woman when I was 18. And they were like, go be a wrestler, go be a wrestler. And, you know, I was like, No, I don't want to have a bra and panties match. That's like, you know, I don’t want to rip my somebody else's clothes off in a ring while the guys get to have all the fun. That's not what I'm here to do. So, I waited, and I waited, and I waited. And it seemed to get better. You know, you saw women in wrestling having main events and doing things. And I'm like, Yes, we can all do this! And you know, I got here and it's so much better than it was, but there's still so much, you know, kind of muck leftover. And then things that are so ingrained in the culture that they just… people don't even know that they're doing things wrong when they're doing them wrong.
Rob: Absolutely. It's such a crazy time. But I did want to ask you, you know, this is very interesting to me, because we have a lot of people come on the show and say you know, wrestling — if this was another business this would happen. Wrestling needs a human resources department; we were kind of talking about this off air you are a certified PHR. Tell us a little bit about that. And how that that plays into the wrestling business a little bit.
Jen: So, to be a certified PHR, it's a certification test that you take. So, it allows you to put those fancy letters after your name, which I still feel really funny about doing. Because I'm like, I'm not a doctor or anything like that. But actually to take the test, The qualifications are that you either have to have a doctorate in a related field or you have to have worked in the field for at least five years. So, I was not fortunate enough to go to college for all that time. But I was fortunate enough to have a lot of work under my belt. And I took the test and I was very surprised I passed it on my first try. There's only about a 50% pass rate for everyone who takes the test. And it's everything the test is everything from, you know, Benefits Administration to, you know, Sexual Harassment and Sensitivity training. To the hiring and onboarding and firing and how companies are structured. You really have to know your business, inside and out. And literally knowing every part of running a business goes into taking that test. So, for me, that was a real badge of pride. I passed it in 2018. I continued to work in human resources in a regular 9-5 job. And I kind of when I got to start training at CCW, I literally came in and I feel like I'm such a nerd in this way. But I literally came in to a Dojo, where it was maybe my first month or my second month in before I was even wrestling, and I had like a whole business plan. And I was like, Hey, this is how we can make things better around here, like you could make more money, things could be more organized. And like I said, I'm such a dork in that way. But I think because in wrestling, paying your dues is something that you have to do. And I most certainly hadn't, you know, earned my stripes at that point. You know, I took my time to do that. And I've worked very hard while I am here, in order to kind of say, like, I understand wrestling is so different than any other business. So, people say, Oh, well, you know, and no other business would run without HR. Wrestling is unlike any other business in the world. There is literally nothing like it that I have personally experienced. And I've worked in the entertainment industry and other fields. So, I'm to come into wrestling and to find just exactly how human resources can fit and, and should fit has been a really interesting journey. And I think it took the speaking out movement for people to be able to be receptive to it. So that. And I think also, you know, and it's a funny thing to say, but having the pandemic where everybody had to slow down, everybody had to shut down, you know, people can't run shows, they're not over run by that every day, you know, I'm out here, I'm working, I'm grinding, because most wrestling companies will tell you, they're held together by a string in a dream. And everybody's just trying to get it, you know, get it by everybody loves people that are in wrestling. They get it by, like on the love of it. Um, you know, so that gets trying to get that little bit of profit margin out where you can, you do and so you end up sacrificing things like administration. And you end up you know, foregoing those things, and they really were never there in the first place, unless you have a huge company, like a WWE. And even in a huge company like that, they might have a human resources department, but that's maybe not the way the thing should be. You care not just about things as far as things inequality for minorities, but, sexual allegations and injuries and you know, all of you know, working through injuries, when people should know all kinds of stuff like that has gone on and has been really like, really, really in the Wrestling World. And everybody's like, so shocked. They're like, how could this still go on? And when I tell you, when you are in this business, there is just such a love for what we do. And once you get the bug for it, it's just, you know, it's thrilling in a way that nothing else is. So, you know, people want to keep going, and you kind of do. I found myself turning, you know, turning the other cheek, turning my head the other way to things, even kind of falling into the culture myself. And so that's one of the things when I do talk to wrestlers about sexual harassment, I say, you know, that was something, I did it. Like, I'm guilty of doing it myself, because one of the things you know, girls always joke about is the, you know, the unwanted dick pics. They're going to come, you know, people tell you like when you get in wrestling, this is going to happen to you and people are going to send it and it's not just that because cosplay is definitely something where that is pretty common as well. But, you know, my solution was fight fire with fire. So, if I was going to get somebody who's going to send me one of those, you know what, I was going to send them the picture of the last guy that sent one to me. Because, you know, it is it's like kind of like a cute, funny creative way to feel like you got revenge. But you know, when I really looked at it, I was like, you know, I'm really just kind of like, instead of doing something to make things better, I'm just kind of perpetuating the culture. So, um, you know, it took that kind of step back and looking at my own behavior too. Because they think we all you know, as girls in wrestling, you know, you have to be really tough to be in wrestling. Girls, guys, everybody. And I think you know, as women like Well, the things that goes on this like, again, for the culture is that girls are not very good wrestlers and you'll hear that all the time. So, you spend a lot of your time trying to be one of the boys. And, you know, I may sit on the fence about a lot of those issues where it's like, well, should there you know, how much safe space should there be? And, you know, what is safe space and all of that. And that's stuff that we're all really kind of like working through and finding right now. And you know, what the lines are and what to do and what not to do. And it's just, you know, it's kind of all very new for everybody.
Rob: And the women. I will say this, lots of comment on here. First of all, is there anything you don't do, I'm like clapping my hands right now. You do a little bit of everything. That's amazing. And women's wrestling right now is on top. The women are really killing it. That's just my opinion. But speaking of women that are killing it, let's turn over to Miss Marissa Cohen.
Marissa: So, I first of all, I love your spirit. So thank you for being you. And thank you for being an advocate and an HR rep and for doing the sensitivity training and the sexual harassment training and trying to make a difference. I do have to comment on the most creative way to combat dick pics. And I have to admit that I've done similar things to people. Yeah, so story. Short story. On the day of my last book launch. Some guy hit me up on Instagram, who I did not know he asked me if I was into trades, and now me, naive me was like, I don't know what that means. And I got a dick pic. So, what did I do? I went on unnamed porn site screen-shotted sent dick pic. I was like, I mean, how, first of all, like you, if you're reaching out to me on the day of my book launch, you clearly know what book I am promoting. Right. And then, you know, I like I was mad. But I mean, that was a really it was it made me feel good. So yeah, I hear you.
Jen: And that's it. Yeah, it's crazy, right? That as you're like, Oh, good. It’s very vindicating. Because you feel like at least you got to get that you know, something back.
Marissa: But the worst part of all of it is people don't send dick pics because of sexual urges. They send it because of control and shock value. Right? So, if somebody sends you a dick pic, it's not because they're like, “Oh, I think she'll be really into me. Yeah, if she sees my dick.” It's, it's, I want to make her feel as uncomfortable as possible. How do I do that very quickly. You know. And I think that, that culture being, you know, not okay, but like tolerated in any industry is really, really toxic, and really, really unhealthy. And that is like the first thing that needs to go, because that element of control is the gateway to sexual harassment.
Jen: It is and is a crazy thing, that's my, my big crazy thing with wrestling and, you know, I'm really like, taking time to explore is that a lot of wrestling, not just in the ring, but it's certainly outside the ring as well. A lot of it is about control and there's a lot of funny situations that you find yourself in. So, you know, the wrestling match itself is a bout of control, who's in power, who's on top, who is losing, who's winning. That's control right there. You know, and so that that's like a thing that's all about control. And then you also find yourself in these funny situations with promoters, because everybody is an independent contractor. So you are, you know, you're negotiating your own pay. And that's like a little, you know, control bout that you're having with the, you know, the person that's the promoter. And there's a lot of amazing promoters out there that take care of you and just give you the rate that you asked for. And then there's some people that want to kind of nickel and dime you. And that's a little control game. So, there's a lot of those little pieces of control that are all over wrestling, where you kind of find that all over and if you can kind of like spot it when it's happening. And that's when you want to help especially, you know, young people, not just young women in wrestling, but like all young people in wrestling that don't have a ton of life experience out in the world. So that you kind of know what's going on in those situations when you find yourself where somebody is trying to control you or manipulate you. And you can say take a minute stop and say hey, what's really going on here? And let me not just like have my emotions rule this situation or have their emotions rule the situation. But go ahead and you know, figure out what's really going on?
Marissa: Absolutely. And I think that's a huge benefit of having HR and HR experience, right? So, you as HR for your company can look out for the younger guy, younger people and have their back so when promoters try and nickel and dime them you can say no, no, that's not what you agreed on. Or when somebody is harassing somebody, you can step in — or HR somewhere can step in and stop it right there.
Jen: Even I'm so sorry to interrupt or just say even just giving people the tools that they need the tools that they need. So, we do like peer mediation is something we've been training with a little bit here. So that people kind of understand in the moment of a conversation, so that they can stop and recognize. And sensitivity training is big on that, too. So, you can kind of stop and recognize like what's going on, rather than just kind of like feeling the feelings.
Marissa: Right. I think that's amazing. So, keep doing what you're doing.
Jen: Thank you. And I think one of the other funny, when we were talking about funny situations, too, that you find yourself in, in wrestling, that makes like, a lot of the sexual harassment situations really weird is that like, you're going to be in a situation every time you're wrestling where somebody’s crotch is in your face, or your face is in their crotch. Or you're picking them up by their crotch, like, so there's a lot of that. And I think as human beings, we deal with those uncomfortable situations with humor. And I think that's, like, perfectly natural. But the balance is like, where do we find… where is you know, what's funny, what's not funny? What's humor? To who? And it's all different to every person?
Marissa: Absolutely. But I think that's the power of consent, right? The power of consent and communication. But you guys work mainly off of body language. I imagine I mean; I've never wrestled in a ring with anyone. But I can imagine that there's a body language communication there. So, you know what, or you can anticipate what's going to happen? And tell me if I'm wrong, stop me if I'm wrong.
Jen: No, you're not wrong at all.
Marissa: Okay. So why can't, why can't we translate that body language in the ring to verbal communication outside the ring, you know, being able to read somebody's body language, or say what you just did or said, makes me uncomfortable, and I don't like that.
Jen: And that just has to become a practice. And that's something that you know, we're working, we're certainly working on here at CCW Dojo, at the academy here. You know, just people being comfortable being uncomfortable. You know, if we can wrestle around in the, you know, 100 degree heat, and we can sweat on each other, then we can certainly say when we feel uncomfortable to each other. And it's just a matter of practice, just like anything else. You get better at it and it gets easier, the more that you do it, the first bunch of times, you're in the wrestling ring, even coming back from us being off for quarantine for three months, you take those first couple of bumps in the ring, and the next day you wake up and you are so sore, and it hurts so bad. So the first time you have that really uncomfortable conversation, where you tell somebody that's been making you uncomfortable, every time they you know, they look at you and you know, you come out in your gear, or they make a comment every time, you know, you do a move in the ring. You know, when you finally you kind of rip that band aid off, and you're like, you know what it really, you know, like, it really makes me uncomfortable when you do this, or I preferred if you'd not do it or you prefer it, if you compliment me in this way, instead of that way. It's real cringy. It's real painful to do it the first couple of times. But you know, we've all come together here to say that we're going to have a supportive environment for one another. And we did that by outlining a code of conduct and going through it with everyone and having everyone sign off on it. So that we can all be committed to having a good environment here and supporting each other, and getting, you know, getting through those uncomfortable situations until we're all comfortable being uncomfortable.
Rob: Wow, really well said and something we have asked pretty much everyone we've had on during this series, I want to hear your thoughts on this. We talked about apparently, it's common for there not to be a locker room or a shared locker room. We also addressed you know a lot of these big cons that we've had, you know, obviously before all this COVID stuff, where the indie talent would have to go pick up the big names. And that's where a lot of these speaking out stories came from, that we see on Twitter and such. Your kind of thoughts on the shared locker rooms and these airport pickups and maybe some things we could do to change that.
Jen: And it's interesting because I also come from, I have a theatre background from when I was younger as well. So, I think we have those, you know, those shared co-ed locker rooms is something that I've been around for a really, really long time. And it's one of those things to just to me like it doesn't phase me. And I think that there is now going to be a possibility in indie wrestling anytime in the very near future where we can see widespread separate locker rooms because they think when you had Risa on here, she was talking about having, how difficult it is to have separated locker rooms because you have co-ed matches, oftentimes. And I've experienced that myself, because, you know, sometimes you'll have a match and there'll be guys that need to be involved but you're in the women's locker room. You know, when a company has done their best to you know, make a safe space for everybody so that we wouldn't run into issues. But I think the issue is not, the solution to the problem is not to separate people, it's to bring people together. So, it's not to say that everybody should always have a shared locker room, but it's to say that we should all change our culture, which takes time, and we all need to have patience with. So that the we can exist in the same space and not be shitty to each other. You know, is it can't always be about separation? Because that's just kind of, you know, in a way ignoring the problem. In a perfect world. Yes, um, you know, you're saying like, Oh, we should have men's locker rooms and women's locker rooms, and then maybe a separate place where we can all meet together? Well, what about people that are transgender? There's lots of people that are in the Wrestling World, and certainly more all the time about, you know, fall into somewhere in between. Where are they? Where do they, and this is something they have to deal with in their everyday lives. But you know, in wrestling, where people are a little bit more gritty, is that how do we make those people feel comfortable? How do we make them feel welcome, and where do they go, and usually, it's just, you know, that's their life, and they've lived that, so they go where they're most comfortable. But like I said, I think for us is just a work in changing the culture so that we can all be together, and just be good to one another. And I don't expect it to happen overnight. It’s a culture. The wrestling culture has been, what it is, in some form or another for over 100 years. So, for me to, as one, you know, one lady to come in here and take, I'm going to change it all overnight is a little silly. But I think, you know, I can at least, you know, a lot of people came out, and they spoke out and they told their stories. And that sparked other people to say, Hey, we don't need to take this, let's all get together and be better.
Marissa: But now, it's about doing something to promote that change. So, what do you think we can do to really promote that change of culture?
Jen: For me, I think is certainly, you know, I know that I can affect it on an academy level on a school level, because you're getting people that are coming into the business. So, I think that's I wanted to start at the foundation. So that's where I have chosen to start within my organization, and really restructure it there. And I know other people, you know, other companies that I've worked for, Titan Championship Wrestling, they also have taken steps to make sure that they're treating their training their people, they’re training their talent on sexual harassment, because there are some people that have been in wrestling since they were, you know, they come people come to wrestling, because they have bad homes. And they've been in wrestling, since they were maybe 13, or 14, and no one ever told them, what was the right way to act, and what was the wrong way to act. And all they have to go on is what they see. And then the other thing that happens is, sometimes you'll have a show, and there's literally three generations of people, which is so cool. There are three generations of people on one show. Like, That's amazing. But what is the divide? And how can we expect everybody to have the same values, because they don't come from the same homes, they don't come from the same generation, they don't, they didn't go to the same church, they didn't grow up the same way. So why on earth could we expect them to all come together and just, it should just work out, Right? Unless we tell them, it's our job, you know, as people that are part of administrations, and, you know, part of companies, just as it isn't a business, it's our job to educate people to tell them when you are here, this is how we expect you to act. And, yeah, I think anyone just expecting someone to behave in the way that they would just want to behave is crazy. You know, you've talked about a bull in a china shop. You wouldn't expect the bull to come in there and, you know, actually play and not knock anything over. So, in that sense, you know, like I said, it's our job to educate, it's our job to say, this is what's right, this is what's wrong. And it is painfully basic, in a lot of ways, but then you can go back and hold people accountable. And it is about getting signatures. It is about saying, here's the code of conduct. And we literally go over it every class. So some people that are at classes five times a week, they hear it over and over and over again. But you know, what, they know what it is already. So, you know, it's getting those signatures and then holding each other accountable. And then having you know, we have all kinds of things in place, we have a school form that you can fill out anonymously or non-anonymously, and submit so that it comes in and if you have an issue, that issue will be handled immediately. Um, and you know, like I said, we have the Code of Conduct everyone signs off on that. We have the sexual harassment training that we've already started. And then the sensitivity training that we're going to be doing as well. And having those trainings and saying, this is what it is, this is what we expect. And when people don't live up to it, it's a matter of holding them accountable, which is tough for promoters to do. Because let's say you have your top guy, and he's in your storyline. And, you know, this is what you're riding on, this is what your draw is where the people are coming to see. And all of a sudden, this guy does something horrible, or we find out something horrible about him. They're not so prone to just like, throw this guy to the wind, because everything's riding on this guy. But we have to get to a point, because in some senses, wrestling is one of the only businesses where you can do that. You know, because stories change the they always they have the same card subject to change. So, people need to get comfortable promoters in particular, that that can happen. And that I think they have because you really saw how many people when speaking out happened, lost positions. They lost their jobs, whether they were held accountable, literally by society.
Rob: Very well said and, you know, especially in wrestling, like you're right, you can't scrap storylines, because like, who was the anonymous brand General Manager, you know, what I'm saying? I digress. But that's a really good point and on a serious note, you know, you mentioned, you know, you have all these different generations. I'm all about, you know, promoting the talent, getting them, you know, as much as I can, you know, to put them over, as we say, in the business here. And we talked to a lot of younger talent, we're very high on a lot of these younger talents, that, quite frankly, I think are going to go very, very far. We're going to see them on TV and no time. But I do worry, especially when I see all this stuff about them. What's your kind of thought, on protecting these younger talents? What's the future look like for these guys right now,
Jen: I like I was saying earlier, it's all about education with them. I, you know, I always have this, I have this picture. And I wish that I had it for you guys. And I have to have to locate it. But it's a picture of me as a baby. And it's really shocking. It's really shocking, because my grandmother is holding me next to my mother in a hospital bed, I'm a newborn, and my grandmother has a cigarette in her hands. And you're like, Oh, my God, you get thrown out of a hospital today, if that happens, you know, you would literally get ejected from the hospital. But that was social norms, then. We have to help our young people understand that some people that are in the older generations have these different values, because life was different when they were younger. And we have to find ways to hold people accountable. Without I think, just burying everybody immediately. So that we can all continue to have a better culture. Because you can't just wipe the slate clean of all of the people that came before you because so much of wrestling is about tradition. And so much of wrestling is about you know, those who came before you passing the torch down to the next generation. That's so important. And it's such a cool thing to me about wrestling. But we just have to get, like I said, young people, it's just, it's education and communication. Anything for young people today have a tough time. Because they think I'm in the middle of the different generations that I see currently in wrestling. But I think people that are younger that come in, they really have a difficult time expressing their feelings. I'm aware, you know, I think people that are in the older generation, tend to just say their feelings, regardless of how it's going to affect anyone else. So, I like there is a middle ground that we can all meet in here.
Marissa: That comes with comfort, right? So, if you have if you're a veteran, and you have this pedestal, or you have a platform, I feel like you're more confident in that and you are more likely to speak out about what's happening. But if you're new, I mean, your reputation is riding on this on this situation. And you can either blackball yourself or you can, you know, actually have a career or a chance at a career. And I think that's really where the disconnect is, in my very, very humble opinion.
Jen: Yes, no, I think you really hit the nail on the head there. And one of the things that we've put in place here at the CCW Academy is we've done we've done like a two-layer system. So, we have a mentor — trainer. That is a person that's a trainer, one of the trainers that we have here is assigned to every new student. They have a vested interest in their development. They're like one-on-one, they get a one-on-one meeting every month. You know, and they are that person's person to go to. And if it's not working out, it can be reevaluated and they can be switched to another trainer. We also pair everybody up, That's new, with a buddy. So, they have an elder student that's here that's kind of like you know, already knows the ropes and everything else. So that this person is going to be properly integrated into our culture that we have here. So, if they're messing up, because you know, if you don't know that you're messing up, you know, somebody's going to tell you you're messing up, you know, or you're not doing the right thing, you're not doing your ring crew duties or, you know, whatever it is, you might be doing, somebody's going to be there to tell you. So that's what we're trying to get this kind of like twofold mentorship in place, so that everybody that comes in, that's new always feels like there's someone to go to, because they think that that was, you know, my personal experience, certainly in, you know, the first school that I went to, I felt really alone and like afraid all the time, I didn't know what was going on, or what was happening. And then I came to CCW and I was very, very accepted here. And, and I was really given, you know, so much creative freedom to do all kinds of different things that I've been hearing, which was awesome. But I think as a student experience, people really need to feel made at home. And they need to feel like they're a part of what's going on. And I think that's a big part of creating a safe environment. You need to know that you belong, and what is okay and what is not okay. And you need that kind of person on a, you know, on a tutor level, who is, you know, here and is in charge who is a trainer. And then you also need that person that's like, Hey, this is my buddy, this is my peer. This is a person who am eye-to-eye with that's helping me out.
Marissa: That's an awesome system.
Rob: I just wanted to chime in here. I'm curious. Obviously, no stranger to inter-gender matches, no stranger to rolling with guys in a faction. Behind the scenes, I've been behind the curtain from a journalistic perspective, you know, where we shake everyone's hand everyone's brother, sister, we see all that respect. You know, not to go into detail or not to name names or not trying to make you say anything. But I'm just curious, you know, very obviously very powerful woman in the ring and outside the ring. I'm curious, like, what your experience was, like, you know, going through this Wrestling World, that's such a wacky circus. Was it mostly positive? Did you encounter some, like negative experiences where people tried to take advantage of you one way or another?
Jen: So, I’ve definitely had, have had experiences on both sides of the fence. I would say, you know, I've just been always fortunate enough to be a self-aware human, that I knew that when I was younger, and I saw things in wrestling that weren't good. I said, hey, that's not for me now. And that when I got into it, you know, I thought, like, Hey, I'm older than all these people, and I know better. And none of this stuff is going to happen to me. And, you know, lo and behold, they're still situations that I did find myself in. But I think, you know, everything that happens to you in life can be looked at, you know, as a, you know, you can hold on to your anger, you can look at it as a learning situation. And that's really what I did. I was like, hey, you know, what's going on? Here's not for me, I'm going to go look at things in other places. Because I knew that I loved wrestling more than I disliked shitty people. So, you know, I was able to take them. Like I said, I was so amazed because they think I came to I was afraid to come to CCW, because they had a terrible reputation. And they did like the around in, you know, the circle of wrestling there, Oh, don't go over there. Bad things are going to happen. And I came here and I had nothing but positive experiences. Like I said, I was given such a platform to just creatively like, do, if I worked really hard at what I was doing, no matter what I was doing, I was given the creative freedom to do it. So, I've been able to be here in so many different capacities and do so many different things. It's been just so, so amazing. And I've been so thankful, like so, so thankful for the experience. And I found people that have really kind of taken me under their wing, and taking care of me along the way. But do I think, you know, like, I still felt that way. And I think that's just me as a person saying, like, Hey, I feel like an outcast because I'm, you know, here I am, you know, in my late 30s and then I'm, you know, in the ring with people who are 16-17 years old. And you're like, what am I doing here? At some point, this is weird. This is uncomfortable. Is this right? Should I be doing this with my life right now? But everybody always was so patient with me here and everybody was always so kind to me here. And, you know, I when I came, I was here I was coming off an injury, I made a really bad break that had hardware in it, and it took me a long, long time to get where it needed to be in the ring. And you know, there's I still, I still have a long way to go. I feel like um, but every, like I said, everyone here all of the people that were in my classes were always so good to me and so helpful to me that it was just like, I'm always so forever grateful. And I tell them all the time, probably to the point where they're really annoyed by it.
Rob: Absolutely. And, you know, like you said, like, wrestling has been so good to you. It's been so good to me, as well, you know, I just made these great connections with people. And by the way, the answer is, yes, you should be doing this because you're absolutely killing it. But I digress. You know, it's just been so positive. So, when I hear this stuff, it really breaks my heart. And this is the stuff that I don't see. So, it's really, really crazy. I do want to throw a quote at you. Marissa help me with this one. Was its Linda, who has said it on the show? What’s the quote, Marissa, about the trust in the ring.
Marissa: We have to trust our bodies with these people in the ring, but we can't trust them with our bodies outside the ring.
Jen: Yes, I love that quote so much. You know, and then there's another one that is a good one too, is that, you know, everybody has a mother or a sister or a daughter. And you know, you don't you don't want them you wouldn't want them treated this way. Don't treat somebody else that that woman that you're looking at. That person that you're looking at, is somebody you know, is somebody's sibling; Is somebody whose family care for each other. Like we're such a little, you know, in a way we all you know, we joke around and call each other Carnie’s all the time. But like we are this little Carnie family that puts the show together. And what we do is so magical. It's like I always equate it to raising a barn. Like everybody needs brings their particular skills. And you know, we all do this crazy thing. So that we can put on a show. It's literally like, the fact that human beings can do this and build a ring. Every time there's a show, we build a ring from the ground up. That's amazing. We can come together and do that. We can come together and build a ring; we can come together and trust each other and throw each other around and punch each other in the face. We can do all those things and do them as safely as possible. Why can't we do these other things? I know that we can. And that's the thing that seems silly to me. It's like it's if obviously if we can cooperate in this way, we can also cooperate and the other way.
Rob: Very well said and I guess we touched on this a little bit already. But just any you know, any advice I guess, especially for these, you know, younger up and coming talents.
Jen: I know, it's just really you know, when you're going into wrestling schools, make sure that you're checking out not just the kind of shiny things. Like not just the people that came out of the school, like not how successful, not how many people came out of that school went to WWE. Find out what's going on, like we just added here, you know, we added our trainers, we have it in a female trainer, we added in a Ref. So, we have ADD trainers, like, oh my God, they are everything. And they have also been like, really just amazing to me as Gabby has too. But find out, Are there trainers at that school that you can identify with? You know, are there people that are going to treat you like a human being, and don't give anybody your money. Like, definitely, you know, wrestling training is a lot of hard work for people who are trainers. So, make sure that you are giving money to people, don't take free rides from anyone, because you will pay for it in one way or another. And make sure that you know, like I said, get what you're paying for and give as much into it, you'll be so surprised as what like what you get out of it. And I mean, I would give that advice for anything in life to anyone but particularly for young people, the harder that you work, the more people that you touch, the more you'll get out of it. I tell people all the time that wrestling is my master my master work in life, I bring all my talents together. And I put it into wrestling. And every time I'm in that ring it gives back to me.
Rob: Yeah, I’ll say. That's it for me mercy, you got anything before we get out of here?
Marissa: No, I'm just so happy that you're making such an impact on the Wrestling World. And I don't even think you see the scope of it yet. And if you do, then that's amazing. But if you don't, you are starting a revolution. And I'm so excited to watch. And hopefully other people will catch on and come to you to do the same thing in their organization. So, thank you.
Jen: I would definitely like I said couldn't do it alone, like Gabby Gilbert and the rep they have all stepped up to help me not just to come as trainers and give their knowledge and you know, come to the aid of these students that we already have, and to new students that we hope you'll come and join us. But they've also been great with me helping to give administrative work, structure, class curriculum, so that people can really come here. Young people, old people, any kinds of people can come here and have a comprehensive school experience. We're really excited. You know, like I said, we have our new facilities that we're getting up and running. We're just kind of like crossing our fingers until COVID has passed so that we can get our class numbers back up. But in the meantime, we've got these small classes where we're working on changing the culture, just one person at a time. And it's been it's been really great so far.
Marissa: That's amazing.
Rob: Absolutely. All you guys are going to get signed, by the way, one of the best tag teams on the planet right now. I mean, I'm telling you right now. But anyway, instead of being a major mark here, let's get some shameless promo out of the way. We're all about it. Now we can be on a fan level or on a professional level here. You know, obviously, working with CCW, how can people contact you on a professional level or follow you on a fan level?
Jen: Um, if you want to reach out to this school, you can reach out to CCWtrainers@gmail.com. You can ask us any questions that you have about the school. The trainers will get right back to you. You can also come and check out our school we are located in Blackwood, New Jersey. You can email us for more of that. For me also on a professional level, you can find me on LinkedIn Jen Casale PHR. And you can see all of the fun and fabulous work history there, which is the boring stuff. Or you can also check out my Facebook. You know, I'm Jen Casale, as well on Facebook, so you can check me out there.
Rob: Awesome. Super cool. And Jen, thank you so much. You know, obviously a fan for a long time. But you've definitely earned my respect and just thank you so much for coming on the show. And, you know, just opening up and telling everyone what you had to say. I super appreciate it.
Jen: Thank you. I hope I didn't chew your guy's ear off too much. I appreciate your time as well.
Rob: That's fantastic. And guys, you know, everyone who's listening right now, like I always say stay safe, stay positive, take care of each other. We're out. Peace.
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Marissa: Welcome back to breaking through our silence. Today I want to welcome Lieutenant Colonel Jeff Rector, of the US Air Force and the Air National Guard. He's a former SARC and has worked with survivors of MST military sexual trauma. He also feels that he's been retaliated against for supporting those survivors. We both feel strongly that the abuse of power in the military is dangerous to the readiness of our troops, and the mental health of the people that enlist. Thank you so much for being here. Jeff, I'm so excited to have you.
Jeff: Thank you, Marisa, it's my pleasure to be a part of your podcast. This is great
Marissa: Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate that. So, would you mind telling us a little bit about what you did as a SARC?
Jeff: Sure, sure, I was a Sexual Assault Response Coordinator for my Air National Guard unit from 2011 to about 2015. As a Sexual Assault Response coordinator, or SARC, I obviously take care of the health and well being of those who feel that they were assaulted or report sexual assault in the military, MST. It is a very tough position based on some of the things you encounter both as a SARC and some of the things you have to do for these survivors. I was passionate about my position as a SARC. I had been in the military at that time for about 29 years, both enlisted and then an officer And I felt that taking care of those folks that get the mission done was paramount. When I was a SARC, for the first few years, obviously, it's a pretty heavy and a pretty steep learning curve and training curve, because coming out of other different military specialties and going into the SARC position, it's not something you can train for right out of a book. You have some good, some good training that's provided to you by civilian training authorities. And then you go through a very rigorous certification process that finds you certified to be that Sexual Assault Response coordinator or victim advocate for these folks. So, it is pretty thorough. You're always learning. And I think that's important to note when you're a SARC because it's not the same every time when you're dealing with someone that survives a sexual assault. In my five years of the SARC and being a member of the Air National Guard in our home unit, obviously I was well known by many. And the first year as a SARC, it was difficult because, you know, it's a trust thing being a SARC. Being a victim advocate. It’s a complete trust of the other person doing the reporting. So, if somebody does experience of sexual assault, or even a harassment, charge, if you will, they come to you for guidance. They come to you because they trust you. They come to you because they feel that hopefully their story will be heard. And whether it's accurate, or true, or however you want to call it, it is a trust thing. And I feel that with that position comes huge responsibility because you're also helping that survivor cope with whatever MST trauma they may have experienced. My first year or so I learned how to be a SARC, how to listen attentively, and to talk to folks about the program, about MST sexual assault military. The SARC program, or the sexual assault program didn't get a lot of attention until probably the mid to late 2005 to 2009. And then it really started to get a lot of attention at high levels, leadership levels. Which made it mandatory That all members of the military had an annual sexual assault prevention, response training, identification. They were all identified as a person, that if you see something, say something. Report assault, report sexual assault. So the program was really getting a lot of attention. And I believe it was for the right reasons, because there were many sexual assaults in the military and it did need to be addressed. What happened in my organization is I saw leadership, promoting the program. Every April was Sexual Assault Awareness Month. And as I felt that they were putting the right attention on it and making steps toward addressing sexual assault and making sure that people knew the right way to report these assaults. I then notice that when the assaults were reported, things started to change a little bit because as my position evolved, and I put three new victim advocates into place and those folks had a very good awareness of the organization, people started coming forward and started reporting situations that may have been sexual harassment or even sexual assault. And as you know, per the regulation, the only folks that can receive a sexual assault report would be medical or chaplain staff and or a SARC or a victim advocate. It's a very close group when it comes to reporting because you want to protect the identity of the survivor and even the perpetrator. We want to make sure that we have all our facts to go forward with the assault claim. So again, we had reports that were happening in our organization And I believe that was because members inside organization trusted us to tell us this information. And that's a big thing. That's the key point when it comes to the SARC program. When our organization leadership started to see that there were reports increasing, I think they got a little nervous because, you know, as a command, they always say, oh, that doesn't happen in my organization, or that can't happen in my organization. I know my people. I know my people. Said, well, it doesn't happen. Well, that's a lie, it does happen. And when you have people in key leadership roles that promote the program, and they want folks to report it to those in the SARC SAPR or victim advocacy program, they're going to report it. And when they do, it's our job to take care of them. So, what was happening is the reports were coming in, we had to identify and address all of them and process all of them per the regulation for the guidance. And as you know, in the military, the numbers have increased. Sexual assaults have increased, even though they've said that they're addressing the problem. I personally don't feel they're addressing the problem; I feel that they're washing over the problem. And they're making sure that they check the block every April and put it as a sexual assault prevention and Awareness Month. But in my experience, both professionally, personally, and in my role of the SARC, I do not think they are addressing the problem.
Marissa: I 100% agree with you. I think similar to their suicide program that they have, it's all just kind of a cover your ass, check the box situation, because these programs haven't been updated. And I sat in when I worked at the 416th TEC, I sat in on one of the SARC programs, and everyone walked out laughing because they said, you know, don't touch somebody's butt. And it was just it was made into a big joke. So, it looks like via the paperwork, that they're actually doing the work to prevent and create awareness and keep their military members safe. But truly, they couldn't care less. As long as their boxes checked, they don't care.
Jeff: And as long as leadership, as you know, in the military as long as leadership looks to their annual officer performance reports or OER in the Army, or OPR in the Air Force, the commander, as they're writing his or her OPR, that commander wants that bullet on there. It says, you know, achieved 100% training in the sexual assault prevention Response Program. That's what they want. They don't want to have: Two sexual assaults were reported while this person was commander. Okay, that's not a good bullet to have on your OPR. So, you are correct. They do check the block, and they do move forward. And they do not want the negativities just show because that means that under their command, which they're supposed to do as officers, is command — good and or the bad, take responsibility for your folks and protect them, and make sure they trust you. So, if you have two or three sexual assault reports, it doesn't go on their OPR. It really doesn't go anywhere. It stays within the database, and it gets looked at by hire headquarters. And they choose whether or not they want to say they were assaults. They say, “Well, that probably didn't meet the requirement of the sexual assault, we're going to put that as maybe harassment. And maybe lecture or counsel the individual involved.” Meanwhile, the survivor has been told by people like ourselves, SARCs, SAPR, and/or victim advocates, that we're going to help them. We're going to take care of them. There's programs in place to help them. Now they've reported the assault, whether it's a restricted record or unrestricted report. But people know when you report an assault, because now you have that target on your back. I will not go out and say this person reported an assault. However, there is some attention that's paid to the person that does report this. If you think about where your sexual assault prevention response offices are, especially in, in my experience as a SARC in the Air National Guard, my office was right next to the Wing Commander, which is the leader of the base. So, we are sitting there behind major glass windows in the big Palace of the leadership command element. And I'm sitting next to them and all of a sudden, what do you think's going to happen if a male or female comes in my office crying? You know, in front of all of leadership? Do you really think they're not going to say, “Hey, off the record, what was going on with that person? Or why were they in your office upset?” Well, obviously, they might have been reporting something that was, you know, in the sexual assault realm, but we don't know. And I'm not supposed to tell them that until we do the report, and file the proper paperwork. You don't divulge the name of that survivor until they choose if it's going to be a restricted or unrestricted Report.
Marissa: I'm glad that you brought that up where the offices were located and the layout of the building, because I've heard from other people as well, who are SARCs for the Navy and from other branches of military that everyone knows who the SARC is, right? You are a widely known position — posters everywhere. And so, for someone to go to your office, it's almost like making an unrestricted report regardless. Because even if I was just going into your office to have lunch or have a conversation or something, everyone would automatically assume, she's going to report an assault, you know, and it just automatically puts a target on your back whether you make a report or not. And that's unsafe. I personally think that's something that needs to change as well.
Jeff: And they did. Well, the Air National Guard did address that and they did make some of the sexual assault prevention response people non-military, so they did a Title 5 resource for those people. That means, they're non-military status, they don't report to military leadership. So there was an attempt to relax the system a little bit to show that well, you know, even though me, as Lieutenant Colonel Rector, reports to Colonel so and so my OPR has a bullet on it that said, you know, the SARC of the organization was able to train 100% of the people in record time, or had a great program in place, and only four reported incidents for the last year. I'm making that up, obviously. But my OPR is signed by the guy or girl that's in charge of the organization. So, if I choose to start reporting all of these sexual assaults, he's going to come here or she's going to say, “You know, are these really accurate? What are you doing? Let's look at this program a little deeper, because all of a sudden, all these people are coming forward.” Well, it's real, it does happen. But like I said, in my position, people trusted me. So, they came forward. And in fact, I had two or three reports. And I had commanders that said, hey, we've Lt. Col Rector, he's our SARC. If anybody can help you, it's him. He will do the job for you. Okay, that's what they would say. But then, later on down the road, as I experienced, the Wing Commander, turned that around, and I feel was I was retaliated against for doing some of those, turning in some of those statistics. Doing my job, and helping those that are survivors of sexual assault or even harassment. I was even looked at to help out with the Equal Opportunity Program too. So, it's a fine line to walk as the SARC or as a victim advocate, because you're wearing two hats. It's a very important program, but will the command put that kind of emphasis on that program?
Marissa: So, let's talk a little bit about how the Commander and how the Wing Commander for the Air Force has a big say in whether these are actually investigated. You touched on how, you know, they can say, “Oh, well, was it really an assault? Or is it maybe a harassment or maybe they're not telling the truth or blah, blah, blah?” So, what happens? Why does the commander have that much power?
Jeff: Well, as you know, like I said earlier, the Commander in this situation is basically notified when there is an assault reported. There's no names associated with it. By regulation, I was told that I had to tell command within 24 hours that there had been an assault reported and we leave it at that. So, what happens is I, as the Wing SARC, would report to a higher headquarters, State Headquarters SARC — which was the Army and the Air Force SARC for the state. Okay. In Vermont. We would have monthly meetings where we would go over every case that was reported. And in that room were key people. There was the Chief of Staff of the unit. There was the Director of Psychological Health. There was a Medical Professional, all of the SARC’s where there. There may have been a victim advocate, Chaplaincy. Because we discussed the care of the survivors, if you will, and where the case was in the process. What I experienced sometimes is, as we talked about the new cases, leadership in the room, whether it be a One-Star General, or a Colonel would say something the fact that, you know, that really doesn't sound like an assault. Let's look at that a little deeper. And I would say, so what you're saying, sir, or Ma'am, is that you don't trust your soldier or airman because they reported what they felt was an assault. Okay? And they would sometimes answer, Yep, I think we need to look into a little deeper before we report that as an assault, I would like to look into that deeper. So, you can see right there to command has influence on how they're reported, and where or if they're reported as an assault. Because if it's not reported as an assault, it goes back down to a different channel where they can control the outcome of the survivor and or the perpetrator. And as you mentioned, in one of your other podcasts, the perpetrator doesn't normally get moved right away. Even if there's an assault that occurs or suspected assault. We, as a SARC or victim advocate have no jurisdiction to say that person needs to be removed. Unless it's reported to civilian authorities, which most of the time when the survivor — they’re very distraught — They don't know where to go. They just remember that, Oh, by the way, Lieutenant Colonel Jeff Rector is the SARC. I remember his picture. I'm going to call that number or I'm going to call the hotline. And then the SAPR hotline is going send the information to me, and I'm going to address it with the member. So, you can see where that disconnect can be. It can be very confusing as the process goes through and to get back to the original question. The command has the ultimate authority, whether they're going to say that was an assault or not, because may not look that good on their command record. Especially if they're going for their next promotion or their next assignment.
Marissa: That is a blatant abuse of power. Because think about it, they're manipulating the system to work in their favor. That's not okay.
Jeff: And its total command influence because of you're sitting across the table, whatever rank I'm wearing on my collar or my sleeve, I look across and I see somebody of higher rank, that may even have an influence on my next promotion or my next assignment. Am I going to challenge that person to that discussion? Probably not. It's almost Psy-Ops. When you see your reporting official across the table, and they're telling you don't do that, or don't report it that way. What are you going to say? No, sir, or No, ma'am. You're going to say Yes, sir.
Marissa: I think that that's such a bullshit way to do things. I mean, I know it's a bullshit way to do things. Because it's a manipulative, abusive relationship, right? I mean, it fits all the categories. They're manipulating the system, they're gaslighting you to think that what you're saying isn't true. And they're holding your promotion over your head. That’s…
Jeff: It's abuse of power. It's abuse of power. And the long and short of it is, you know, when I was in my position as a SARC, I had a long and distinguished career. I was actually nominated to go to what they call War College for a senior officer. And I was not an aviator. Normally, most of those positions, go to aviators for their performance report to make it look, you know, presentable for their next command. So, I was probably one of 150 officers in the Wing that was nominated go to, in residence War College as a non-rated officer. Which was a good feather in the cap. And I was doing a great job to get the programs going, get the programs running, making sure everybody he knew how to report. But then when the reports started coming in, I started to see that they probably weren't too happy that they're getting this many reports. As you saw, I think the Air Force put out most recently, they said that the sexual assault in the Air Force increased last year. Obviously, we're not fixing the problem. I mean, it's good that people feel comfortable to come forward and report an assault if it does happen. However, I would be interested to find out how many of those reported assaults, ended some sort of disciplinary action for the perpetrator Because you don't get that information. You didn't get the reports. Okay. Meanwhile, the survivor is still in the same organization, unlike the active-duty military, any National Guard unit, whether it's army or air inside the state, and the state like Vermont, which is so small, if there's somebody that was assaulted, how are you going to move them to a different organization and not have them be seen as that person, right? You can't just say, okay, you're going somewhere else, and we're going to move you and protect you. That doesn't happen in a small state like Vermont, because there's only one Air National Guard unit. So, it's not a thing, just move them across the road and say, Yeah, you're good, you're protected. I can't do that. So, we have to look out for the best interest of the survivor.
Marissa: The problem is, that's not what happens.
Jeff: Correct.
Marissa: As far as I'm aware, they either transfer the survivor somewhere else, or tell them to unfuck themselves and get over it. Or they wait a little while and then PCS as the perpetrator, which is disgusting, because they haven't been counseled, there's no repercussions for their actions. And they're going to go off to a new unit and do the same exact thing.
Jeff: Or what I like to say is write them off in the sunset. Because in my experience, I had a survivor come forward, a female survivor that had been assaulted by a senior officer in her chain of command. She came to me and reported it, she reported it as unrestricted. So, we had the full range of making sure everybody knew the individual that was named as a perpetrator was then removed from the base, put on administrative leave for a little while. We went through the process of reporting; we called in the National Guard Civ team that came up and did an investigation. Meanwhile, the senior officer was what they call in a mandatory separation date window, which means within so many months, they were going to be mandatorily retired if leadership did not take action to continue their service. And I made mention of this to leadership in our organization and said, Sir, this person is due to have a mandatory separation date, you know, 1 October, and its now June. We know how long these process takes. So, I would recommend that you put some sort of administrative hold on this person so they do not mandatory separate without any action. The leadership said, “Sure. We'll take that into advisement. We'll take that into consideration.” Meanwhile, as you know, the process in the military is not fast. It took a while to get the process through the system that the report in, have a board. And then next thing, you know, there was a discrepancy found in the package. It came back for review, and then the perpetrator was allowed to retire without any kind of incident, because of separation date came up. So, things like this do happen. Leadership is well aware of how they can be will circumvent the system. Meanwhile, the survivor, what kind of support does the survivor get other than a letter, a letter that they made me write and say, we’re really sorry, there was a discrepancy in the package and this case is closed.
Marissa: Which puts the onus on you and not on the leadership abusing power. That's disgusting. And that builds systematic distrust of the SARC program. So, it's really, it's like shooting yourself in the foot as a SARC, because you want to advocate and you tell them, you're going to advocate and you're going to help and you're going to get this person penalized for their actions. And then you do everything right, follow the system, and it's shut down for probably like a missed comma, like something so small. And then you are the one held responsible for their actions and the perpetrators actions. And then people don't come to the SARC’s anymore. That's disgusting,
Jeff: Right. So, they all know that there's a process that takes place is a very well advertised what the process is when you report a sexual assault, and obviously, they know it takes time. We try to do you know, expedient, as quickly as we can. But we're at the mercy of the other part of the system to do their process. And again, like I said, these programs supposedly get a priority in the big picture, like the Air National Guard, or the Army National Guard or the Air Force. But if you look at the program itself, there are not enough people in the program to staff these types of situations. There are not enough teams that can go out to each organization and review the folder or have a board or; they just can't, it's not a way to do business. And I feel personally that this program should not be a military program, it should be managed by a civilian program. They should take these people that have been SARC’s, that have retired. SARC’s that have retired and become advocates. And they should form some sort of contracted division that can address sexual assault in the military directly. So, the person that's the survivor isn't scared to call that number and say, you know, can you help me? They don't know who that is on the other end, but they know they're trained. And we don't know as that team who this is and what their situation is. We just do the investigation and report it through the channels to command. That way, I don't feel that I'm going to be retaliated against for doing my job, and the survivor hopefully gets the comfort and care they need to proceed forward. And then justice is served through the military program.
Marissa: That's amazing. And I think that you and I and Never Alone are really going to make a huge difference for survivors of MST military sexual trauma.
Jeff: I think there's enough expertise, and enough enthusiasm in our group to make that happen as long as we're heard. And I think, why not take all the money and all the resources that we currently throw at sexual assault, are meant to respond to the military. So, you think about the SARC’s, the victim advocates and all the other people that are trained and certified via the advocacy networks out there, that's a civilian network that the government pays for them to train us, and we know that SARC’s don't stay in their position for more than probably three to four years. Me especially, as the executive officer, only stayed there for four years, and I was moved on. So, we had to train somebody else, certify somebody else. If you have a civilian coalition that can do these amenities programs, just budget accordingly and take the SARC’s and the victim advocates right out of the organization and let this coalition manage it.
Marissa: That's a really good idea. I really hope that this works out for us. I think that it could be really beneficial to a lot of people. What advice would you give as a former SARC to people that are still either afraid to come forward or still fighting for their freedom?
Jeff: It's a very traumatic event, and everybody deals with it differently. I think if I was to share my experiences into someone, or anyone guidance, trust the system, but always verify the steps you make. If you're going to file a sexual assault report, make sure you get copies of all documentation. You document every time — you keep a journal of when you did things or where you went and who you spoke to — Because that will pay huge dividends during the process. Because you're not always going to be speaking to somebody in your organization about this. You're going to end up talking to somebody at the office of complex investigations or someone outside, maybe even civilian authority. So, it's always good to keep some sort of written journal. Or have somebody that you trust as a wingman or a battle buddy, if you will, and have them keep the journal because it isn't a traumatic event. And you may not be able to keep this journal. But if you trust somebody else to help you through the program, get that person that can be your battle buddy or your wingman and help you through it.
Marissa: I love that! Is there anything else that you want to talk about that I missed?
Jeff: I think this is a great program that you're doing to highlight MST sexual assault in the military and make sure that survivors of sexual assault are treated the way they're supposed to be treated. Like human beings. And they're not treated like a number or a machine or some sort of person that can just be pushed aside, and not treated with human decency. You know, I think that's applause to you for doing this.
Marissa: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. And thank you for everything that you have done for survivors, as a SARC and as a human. But also the things that you're doing now, post all of that knowing what you know, helping MST military sexual trauma survivors heal. I really appreciate your work and your friendship.
Jeff: Well, thank you. And you, too.
Marissa: I really want quickly want to plug the book that you and I are working on together. It is another book in the Breaking Through the Silence series should be coming out later this year. And we'll come back on and give you some updates as it progresses. But if anyone listening is interested in participating as a survivor of MST and wants to contribute to this book, feel free to email me or message me on any social media. And we will make sure to have your voice be heard, Anonymous or not.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Rob: Gentlemen, welcome back to a very special episode of the BCP / Healing From Emotional Abuse Podcast Connection as we continue to break through the Speak Out movement with my tag team partner multiple time Amazon award-winning Best-Selling Author, my good friend, Miss Marissa Cohen. Marissa, what's up over there? How you doing?
Marissa: Hi, I'm great. How are you?
Rob: I'm doing really, really good. You know, all things considered. You know, like we keep saying 2020. But Marissa, You've knocked it out of the park with this one. And I'm super hyped. Super honored right now. This is a big one guys. Right here. I am personally so honored to be speaking with easily one of the best in the world right now. The first ever Mexican born and current NWA Women's World Champion, Miss Thunder Rosa. Miss Thunder Rosa, how are you today?
Thunder Rosa: Thank you.
Marissa: We should add an Applause track.
Rob: Yeah, absolutely. I was going to roll my R’s, but I would really just fail it that miserably. But it really is an honor. Thunder Rosa, thank you so much for a few minutes of your time. First and foremost. 2020 has been crazy. How are you? How's the family? How's everyone making out in this 2020 COVID world right now?
Thunder Rosa: We're doing really well. I mean, we definitely use COVID as a launchpad for a lot of stuff. You know, we're really focused, and as you guys know, we revamped Mission Pro-Wrestling to make it mostly female staff and, and everybody in there because the work, you know, after the whole speak out. So we're working on that. I mean, it is really hard, because I have a tendency to like start things and not really have like, a plan for it or just like, go! Then we just go from there. So yeah, we're working really hard.
Rob: Yeah, it's crazy. You know, I find it as like a creative and a journalist in the in the business like, now really is a good time to focus on our crafts in other ways. But I want to talk about you know, your reaction when we first saw this speak out movement, we've talked to a lot of indie talent. We've talked to a lot of promoters. We're so honored to have you here. When you saw this hashtag trending on Twitter, what was your immediate reaction or thoughts? Were you surprised?
Thunder Rosa: I was not surprised, actually. I was at first, for the first people that were, you know, talking about, I mean, had some I know I knew that person, but I didn't know them to that extent. So and then as soon as I started seeing, like the domino effect and where everybody started speaking now, I was like, I personally was like, I hope somebody, if they're, you know, speaking out on Twitter, I hope somebody goes to the authorities. I know it, you know, it's it's really hard and probably not going to do anything. But at least there's a record for men or women that have been harassed, to use this and take it to the next level. Right? In order for, you know, justice to happen. And unfortunately, not a lot of people did that.
Rob: Yeah, absolutely. It's very crazy. And I'll throw it over to Marissa. Marissa is all about breaking through the silence And speaking of somersault, throw it over to you if you have some questions.
Marissa: Sure. So I really appreciate you saying that, you know, giving you're giving your not blessing but giving your you know, I guess permission to encourage women to speak out and men and any survivor to speak out. I think that that's really important to hear, especially from people like you who have a platform and have a name. So have you ever experienced anything throughout your wrestling career that was inappropriate or abusive?
Thunder Rosa: Man, if I was to, like, name some names, and if I was to sing some stuff, you know, it's just like, I would be here all day, have a conversation with you, honestly. I decided to, you know, if, when I have some of the some of these issues to like, deal with and personally, I have a very supportive husband, who is actually has seen most of this stuff online. I've seen a lot of the comments, you know, pictures, all that kind of stuff. And we actually personally talked to some people, you know. But not a lot of people have, you know, the courage to go and say something to somebody in person. To make them stop. I mean, it took me a little while before this happened, but I remember telling my husband like when I first started in my career, man, if this was a regular job, half of these people will be fired already for sexual harassment. But, again, I talked about it before, and this was, we lived in a culture of silence. And, um, and a lot of the girls, you know, spoke out, and some of them were heard, and some of them were victimized again. I mean, they blamed the victim. But for me, it's very important to take action. You know, and especially in cases where some of this stuff were, to the level that they were that they don't, they don't necessarily need to be afraid of doing that, because that's the next step in order to keep people that were multiple offenders, keep them away from doing it again.
Marissa: But don't you think it could possibly, potentially hurt somebody's career to speak out? I mean, there have been cases where, you know, even in Hollywood where women spoke out against Harvey Weinstein years and years before, the #MeToo movement and they were blacklisted. And I'm sure the same thing has happened in the Wrestling World.
Thunder Rosa: I mean, there's a reason why a lot of us didn't say anything before. Before the speak out happened. Because if you say something and you don't have the platform, or you don't have the name, you know, you're gonna get blackballed. You know, so it's like a sort of two edges, right? Is like, even your blamed if you speaking, or blamed if you don’t. And I think some, some people were like, why you're not use your platform, that way that you should? We all decide to take action a different way. You know, and definitely, when I was, like, somebody that I knew that that was, that was part of the abuse, or they receive abuse, like, I definitely reach out to some of them, you know. But some of them are really vulnerable, and they don't want to really talk about it. So I respected that too. You gotta, you know, how they feel. But um, yeah, I mean, it's an interesting, it's an interesting topic, and is very sensitive, because you've got to go both ways.
Rob: Of course, you hit it right on the head. And I just wanted to say, like, you know, I do I very much like support the indie talent on the show. That's what it's all about. We tried to put them over, if you will. We've seen, you know, some of these women come out. And I've seen one, saying that she had a story, but she even though all this is going on, she did not feel that she had to share it. And again, there's no pressure there. And then she ended up just walking away from the business right now. Are you seeing like a lot of that on your end? Or are you are you thinking like, this is something that that is going to actually come out the other end very positive?
Thunder Rosa: It could be both ways. I mean, I get some of that locker rooms were very toxic. And like, a lot of the women were kind of like, at the edge, and men too. So I think because of like now, there's not a lot of shows, running, opportunities are sparse. As far as the like, in like, all this that is happening and has been so hurtful, in many ways, like, some people would just rather just something else. You know, because it's just like, I don't know. Like, for some people was traumatizing. Because they, they suffered from some of this abuse and harassment, and some of these, you know, being blackballed and stuff like that. So then is reading continue to read the stories and reread them? It was it was, it was a lot. It was a lot.
Rob: So, you know, we're working a lot with this indie talent. You know, we talk about, you know, obviously, before this COVID stuff, but when we had these conventions, where we had these indie shows where we have, you know, the up and coming talent, come pick up the bigger name talent from the airport, or we talk about the talent and these indie shows where they have to share a locker room. You're kind of your thoughts on that, Thunder Rosa.
Thunder Rosa: Well, it happened and it shouldn't ever happen. And we should have said something. But now, given the fact that this, this all happened, and we need to be different, and we need to be better. The last show that I was in, there was no locker room for the girls. What I said, and I and I yell at the guys, too. I said, Don't you ever let another woman change in front of you. It's all our responsibility. And I'm not talking about just women. But you guys do to take care of the girls. A lot of these girls are new, so they feel afraid of like speaking up. But you know what, I've been in the business for six years. I'm a business owner. I'm a wrestler, I'm a pro-MMA fighter. I'm a mother. I'm a wife. You know, I, myself have been through this too. I am not gonna let another girl to change in front of all of us anymore if we get a little tiny place for us to be to have privacy. So be it. But I also want to blame the guys for allowing this to happen too. Because they're also responsible. This is why I had the conversation and I said to everybody is like you guys are also responsible. You guys have to be brothers keepers. We're all brothers here. There's no more BS of like, “Oh, no, no, it’s just business…” None. None of that. This should never happen in the first place.
Marissa: Thunder Rosa, for President 2020
Rob: I know, I literally like clapping my hands over here don't mess with her.
Thunder Rosa: A lot of the times I was afraid to say something. Even like, when like, the promoter didn’t give me my money or something. To like, be sensitive. I can't be sensitive, you know? It's my body. It’s my is my brand. It's everything, you know? I'm not perfect, I'm not a role model. I just care for other people. And that's it. If you don't care for other people fine. But be ready for another speak out movement to happen. Because if we continue to have this mentality, this is going to continue to happen no matter what. You know. So that's why I'm like right now, I'm all about action. You have to put your money where your mouth is, or whatever that is. It's like, if I say, I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna do something. And again, if I'm in a locker room, with women, especially in the Indies, because the locker rooms are very small, I will demand for a place. And I'm not talking about, send me to the bathroom, where everybody's going to be using the bathroom, they're going to be interrupting me. I'm asking for a little place and where I can change, and the others girls can change without being bothered by the guys or being like looked at, or vice versa.
Marissa: Right. We've been hearing a lot from previous interviews about how people who are being accused of sexual harassment sexual assault are still being booked. And when it's brought up to promoters about well, why are you booking them? They've been accused, they say, “Well, what do you want us to do not book them?” So what do you think about that?
Thunder Rosa: That's the reason why, for me, it's super important that I mentioned at the beginning of the show, that you have to press charges, and, you know, legal actions to be taken. Because when there is an accusation, the people are gonna say, well it’s just an accusation. It's that he said, she said. And that's how they defend themselves. But then there's actually multiple cases and where the girls can go after this person or this other person, it's a different story.
Marissa: Yeah. As a business owner, and a person who works in wrestling as a business owner, what do you think that promoters and the organizations can do to create the safer environments for their, for the wrestlers and for their talent?
Thunder Rosa: Well, you know, there is an organization that has been created in Los Angeles that is just focusing on this specific aspect, which is sexual harassment, HR and everything. And I don't think that this has ever happened before. It’s the wrestling coalition, and I will send you guys a link. She's been working super hard. And she's working with other wrestlers, female and male wrestlers. And we're are with me reaching out to other schools, and organizations, wrestling organizations to like, educate people about this aspect. Because this is a serious thing. And because there's no platform created for us, we're independent director like us is really difficult to follow through, and to have an investigation. Like in other regular jobs where, there's sexual harassment, the person gets suspended, and, you know, there's an investigation and whatever happens, happens. And we have to also remember, because there’s only an accusation, you cannot be proven guilty until you're found guilty. Which again, that's, for me is so important. And I've talked many times with some of my friends, that it's important that you need to seek legal action. Because as you guys can see, there was a video, and the person said very clearly, there was no legal action taken, so I can speak now. And you're blaming the victim. And I'm just like, I was blown away, I was like, wow, nobody went and actually pressed charges? Especially after having all this proof that it was real. So it's like, I mean, because we don't have the HR and we don't have like somebody that can guide you through it. Because it's painful. It's a pain in the butt. It's like nobody wants to do it and nobody wants to spend money on lawyers. But it’s necessary. It’s necessary.
Marissa: You don't think it falls on the organization to protect people. Like to, if there's an accusation, if not do an investigation, at least suspend or avoid booking somebody for the accusation.
Thunder Rosa: I mean, some people they don't really care. Business is business. Remember, this is still a lot of people in the business that are still out there, and they've done some shady stuff, just because people haven't said anything. They're still running the stuff. You know? And nobody's saying anything about it. And nobody will say anything about it, because there's a lot of people with a lot of power.
Marissa: I think it's kind of like a vicious cycle, if you think about it. So, they abuse somebody, and that person doesn't speak up so they're allowed to continue to abuse, and abuse, and abuse. But if someone does speak up and nothing happens, then that person who's been abusing feels like on top of the world. Like they're unstoppable. Nobody can touch them. So it's almost encouragement to keep abusing. So I feel like, although I agree with what you're saying: Business is business, there are so many people out there that aren't abusive pieces of shit. why don't we give them the booking instead of, you know, well, it's a he said, she said.
Thunder Rosa: You know, that but everybody, every organization does business differently. Like, for example, me. If I know, I know, it's true, and I've seen it, and I, you know, my friends told me and I know it everything. I know that person will never work with us. Just period. But again, everybody has a different set of values, everybody has a different perspective of things, you know, and I see what you're saying, like, I saw one of the promoters and they were like, Hey, why are you booking this person? This person has like, a long list of bad behavior, you know? And I saw.
Rob: Absolutely, I you know, I see that over here in the shows, you know, where sometimes we're lucky enough to have, like, you know, drive in shows, you know, equivalent to like a drive in theater of wrestling shows or whatever. And every once in a while I'm running an interview or something, and someone will chime in with a comment about somebody or something associated with somebody. So again, it's very, you know, it's very crazy. He's saying, but Thunder Rosa, telling it like it is. And Marissa, you know, obviously, I see where you're coming from as well obviously, Marissa being like, as we like to say a survivor, a champion here on this show. But I want to throw this quote at you Thunder Rosa. Marissa, helped me out, I always botch the quotes. But they say in the ring, you know, you guys trust each other. Behind the curtain. You guys are brothers and sisters, I guess this is really a quote. But uh, you know, I guess the quote was, you know, “We can we can trust each other to catch each other in the ring, but we can't trust each other outside of the ring.” Your thoughts on that?
Thunder Rosa: It's the entertainment business. If this was a regular job, you think that people act certain way, and they end up being a different way. In where like they're backstabbers. They, you know, they say they have your best interest, which is BS. And they go. And when it’s their time, they go after you, one way or another. This is a perfect example of things. And it saddens me terribly. Because this is not a way to do business, and to work. There's nothing worse than you work at a place, and then you want to try to go to a different place, but you can't because you're blackballed. You can’t because somebody used their power to try to hinder you. But nothing is better and more empowering than when you are you, and you decide to take action, and take your life in your own matters and do things the right way. And show people that whatever is being said, is not true. Especially when you’re a victim of harassment. So, man, it's just this for me, this is such a sensitive topic. And that's why I say like, some people, honestly, Marissa, they don't care. They really don't care.
Marissa: And it's disgusting to me. And you can see it truly in the fans as well. And I'm not by any means bashing wrestling fans. But we've had people on the show that talk about how fans are so loyal to the people that they grow up watching, and so loyal to the wrestlers that they follow, that anyone that comes out and makes an accusation gets bashed on social media. And that's so scary for people. You know, like you said, it's such a sensitive topic, and people speaking their truth and speaking out about their story are being so vulnerable, that then to be victim blamed and victimized by fans of the person they've accused, is so traumatizing. It's probably almost as traumatizing as the actual incident.
Thunder Rosa: But when you speak out, that's part of what the consequences are. And you have to be aware, when this happens, that this is going to happen. Especially if you're a part of an entertainment business. And we saw when the #MeToo. All those women who spoke out, they were also bashed. I read a lot of these books a couple years ago, and he was like the women and men were scared because they go after them. Everything. And they tried to go, and they tried to dig dirt, and they tried to do a bunch of stuff, you know, which is not cool either. But we have to be mindful when you're going to speak your truth, this was, this is going to happen, and you have to be ready. But you also have to be ready to take action. To like, take it to the next level. I mean, that's why it was so powerful for the #MeToo movement with all these women from Hollywood. They were able to take action, and they put him in jail. Because there were so many stories, and all of them were very similar. The same with Bill Cosby. With all these women spoke out after 20-30 years, they all took him out of society. So he was not being, you know, booked to do a show and booked to do this, and do that. But that is what is necessary sometimes. Because otherwise, Marissa, we’re going to go back to people not caring about the allegations and continuing to book these people.
Marissa: Right. So that's what I want to avoid. You said that there was a coalition? Is the person collecting stories for lack of a better term in order to advocate for people? Or is that just like, like a survivor resource?
Thunder Rosa: No, it's more of creating a platform and where if this incidents happen in schools, or whatever else, there's actually somebody who can actually do an investigation. And there is like, they're creating policies that can be used in different promotions, schools, and they can be implemented too, in case of these situations happening. So it can’t continue to hurt people. So if like, somebody goes and does an allegation, there is an investigation right away. Or there should be an investigation right away. So that's what we're trying to implement. Again, this organization is in its infancy, but she's working very hard. And she's been working with attorneys and HR specialists from all over the country. So like I said, I'll pass you the information if you want to be part of it. Because I think this is very, very important. Because this is the wrestling. Women in professional wrestling. This is called professional wrestling for a reason, right? So this should be taken as professional wrestling. As a profession. We're professionals. Right? I mean, I always see it that way. You know, but it's like, like you were saying, like, you can’t trust people in the back. Like you have to, that's why we have to be very mindful of who we associate ourselves with. Because then later on, they can bite us in the butt. Even when we don't have nothing to do, just because we were friends.
Rob: You know, very, very well said, the business has been so positive to me, you know, I've just made so many like friends and connections and obviously, Thunder Rosa, you have had such just such a decorated career so far. You've had so many accomplishments, I you know, I wish we were here talking about our dream opponents and you know, dream tag team partners and all this stuff. But you know, obviously, we're talking about a very serious topic. Does this kind of, like, obviously it sours everything, but what's kind of your positive level on the business versus the negativity? Like what's, what's your feeling right now?
Thunder Rosa: Man, for me, professional wrestling has brought a lot of happiness, And a lot of a lot of my dreams came true because of professional wrestling, because of how much dedication and passion I have to this. I mean, it's a very difficult business to be in. It’s mainly dominated by men, white men. So the odds of a person color to like, be decorated and like, make it big, it's, it's hard. It's very, very hard and you go through a lot of, you eat a lot of shit. So excuse my language. But you have to learn how to navigate and how to be smart and how to like, you know, do what's best for you. And without stepping on other people's backs, or backstabbing other people, that's like my number one thing. I don't like doing that, just to get ahead. And a lot of my veterans and will be like, you're in the wrong business, because you're such a good person. But I'm not going to put my values and my morals on the side just because I want to get something. I'm gonna get it because of my merit. Because I will worked hard for it. Because I bled for it. Because I sweat for it. Because I worked so hard. And there's no denial that I deserve it. So I think professional wrestling has taught me to be tough, to have tough skin, and I have no limits. I never had limits, but I think this one has taught me even more to be limitless. The only limits that I have and the ones that I set for myself. And that's it. Like nobody else can tell me Otherwise.
Marissa: I wish more people had that mindset.
Rob: Yeah, clapping my hands over here right now. Very, very well said. And you’re such a bad ass, and really telling it like it is. I do want to be respectful of your time, Thunder Rosa, and thank you again so much for a few minutes. I did want to ask you this. You know a lot of times you mentioned your husband, some of your guys endeavors. You guys make me believe in love again. But I did want to talk about, I believe its Mission Pro Wrestling. I see you guys posted some stuff, I think fans can request matches and all that stuff. You know, I just saw Holidead — a couple days ago at a drive-in show here in Jersey. She was fantastic in person. But not about shameless promo. We'll get to that later. I did want to ask you, you did mention earlier in the interview about kind of taking on an all female roster, and all female management. Tell us a little bit more about that.
Thunder Rosa: It's been a heck of a roller coaster. Right after the Speak Out happened, my husband's like, “Well, I mean, you go and I should start running an all female promotion.” And I'm like, Man, I'm not ready. And he's like, no, it's time. Oh, man, it's gonna be hard. So, you know. We try our best to do as much to fulfill our older roles with females. From the merch table, to the tickets. Our Booker's a female, I'm the owner. Sound, commentary, everything. Like we want women production. The hardest thing to find is women that are in production. So that's where I come here. And I'm probably not going to wrestle very much, because I want to make sure that I learned production, and I'm able to like run things in the back. But that's the most difficult part because I don't feel that there is enough women in the production area. And that's one of the most important parts of professional wrestling, because it's being professional wrestling is being put on YouTube is being put all over the world. But you need somebody to produce that and to produce it well. So that's been very challenging. And I've been like trying to talk to some of the girls into like, “Hey, are you interested in learning more about how to like, record a match? And how to like edit a match and how to do this stuff.” And they're like, “Nah, I just really want to wrestle.” And I'm just thinking in my head, recording, editing, and learning how to do all this things will take you even further because you can use it for your YouTube, you can use for your Patreon. If you're into OnlyFans, you can use that. So that's like other sources of income. So it's like changing the mindset of just being a wrestler and entertainer to like being a wholesome business person. It is very difficult. And that's what I want to do with Mission Pro Wrestling — is like not only allow and give a platform for women to wrestle and entertain people, but also to learn other ways to like, become their own businesses, and business owners. Which is owning their own brand, and, and being able to make money with wrestling. Which is one of the hardest things to do and be successful at it.
Marissa: As far as the production elements go, I have a couple female friends that I think would really benefit from working with you just because of your like badass-ery and your power. And if you’d like I can refer them to you or connect them to you and see if they are people that you'd like to work with.
Thunder Rosa: Yeah, if like, especially if they're like, I don't know if they live, where do you live? Marissa?
Marissa: I'm in Chicago, but they're all over the place.
Thunder Rosa: Yeah, if they're like closer to Texas, it will be best. Again, we're just starting. And I'm like, seriously trying to do this with my team as like, self sufficient as possible, because we want to make sure that you know, we get our equipment. But we want to make sure that we're able to, in the future have like bad ass production, and everything's owned by us. And we're like running that way. I mean, yes, we'll definitely like to get some help for the future shows.
Marissa: Okay, I'll connect you to a couple people.
Thunder Rosa: Awesome.
Rob: Love it. Love it. You guys are killing it. Last question for me, Thunder Rosa. And again, thank you so, so much for a few minutes of your time. I do like to end things on a positive note, if you don't mind my asking. We do have a lot, a lot of indie talent on the show. So kind of a two parter here, tying it to what we've been talking about earlier. Any advice you would have for them, you know, to kind of move forward safely. And then if you wouldn't mind some advice for them creatively or trying to get over or move forward in the business.
Thunder Rosa: I think it's like, people need to stop focusing so much on like, the, like, the end goal. Which is it could be you know, AEW, WWE, all that stuff, and just really enjoy the journey. Like it took me years for me to like, be like, Okay, I'm enjoying what I'm doing. It was just go. And then after I achieved so much, I'm like, What am I doing? And that's when we were missing it, or like we're comparing ourselves to other people are more successful than us. I started with us. Our journey is completely different than the other persons journey. So you just have to enjoy the trials and tribulations that you will go through. And when you stop enjoying it, you need to stop doing it. Like don't make everybody miserable in the locker room and be a sour puss. Fans give us so much, so much, that you have no clue. Like so many of my fans, right now, I can tell you, they have given my family and me so much joy, and they have helped me create so many great memories, that if I would have done it, any other way, I don't think I would have been able to achieve it otherwise. So it is so important that you are positive. And you are that you actually give something to this to this business, you know, because at the end of the day, when you die, like you're gonna take everything. All the knowledge and everything else you have is going to be for nothing. So for me, that's why, maybe because I was a social worker before, for me, it's important to give, to be generous and to be to be genuine. Because that's gonna take you a lot further than just being selfish.
Rob: Wow, I'm just gonna echo when Marissa said Thunder Rosa, for president, Marissa: you got anything else before we get out of here.
Marissa: I just, if you wouldn't mind giving just like one piece of advice to any up and comer who might face some sort of abuse or harassment. Or, veteran wrestlers who have faced — what’s like one piece of advice you'd give them.
Thunder Rosa: I will say that, if you have been harassed before in any way shape, or form, that if you have somebody you trust really well like either veteran, a friend or whatever, to help you talk to the other person and really be like, you need to stop. It's so important. It's so important to tell them to stop. And if they don't stop, you need to like gather all your information, all this stuff that you have, and really take action. Because it's so important other than this people because some people are sick, they're really sick, and they need to be taken out. And I'm not talking about just the business. They need. So sick. And they've done it so many times of so many different people. And, and that's very, very important. Because they, they, they will continue to do it. They don't do it to you, they're going to jump to the next person, they're gonna go to the next person. And it's really sad, because some people are so passionate about pro-wrestling, that when this happened, like their passion, the love and everything is gone. And it just takes everything away. And it takes so long for them to like rebuild and continue. Because not everybody's strong. You know, not everybody can just keep going and just like brush it off. But that's so important. And believe me, so empowering. I mean, so I mean, I'm telling me, it made me really nervous when I have to like face on people and be like, hey, whatever you're saying, I know you're gonna say it's not true, but I know is true, you need to stop right now. Immediately. Or you will suffer other consequences, because I'm not playing. Especially, a lot of our LGBTQ people, like they suffer from a lot of that stuff. And they think that some people would think is funny when they're being harassed like that. It's not funny. It's not funny at all.
Rob: Thank you for saying that. Very, very well said. And Thunder Rosa, like I said, I do want to end this on a positive note, you know, hopefully next time we talk to you, you know, we're talking about goals and all sorts of other stuff in the world to be back to normal. But I am all about the shameless promo here. So please, you know, I saw you just put up some pictures on your website. You know, I'm definitely gonna look into that. But tell us where everyone can follow on social media, your website and all your endeavors coming up.
Thunder Rosa: So you guys can find me at ThunderRosa22@gmail.com if you want to send me an email. But you can find me at ThunderRosa.net. All my social media is linked to there. I also have my YouTube page and where it's monetized. So every time I do live feeds, or I put a new video I usually am in the chat so you guys can donate money to the cause. You know, this is how I make a living. Because I'm not wrestling very much. Future plans. I feel like I'm you know, floating some stuff in there, but we're going 100% of admission for wrestling — We're thanks support as many women as possible. And this is not your typical BS small promotion. We're trying we will make it as big as possible. We have a lot of connections and we want to make sure those who work hard and deserve it, get those opportunities just like I did. Somebody was able to give me those opportunities or just offer those opportunities and just take over the world. We want good people to take over professional wrestling. Good, strong, women to take over professionalism.
Marissa: Make Professional Wrestling Safe Again.
Rob: There it is. I love it. It's not a Thunder Rosa Thank you so much. You know obviously you fan for a long time but more importantly we appreciate you all Opening up, you certainly have my respect and continued success moving forward. Thank you so much for your time.
Thunder Rosa: No, thank you guys for having me. Appreciate
Rob: All right guys, as always say here, stay safe, stay positive, take care of each other. We're out peace.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today we're going to talk about this really cool program that I'm very, very interested in learning about, called the Butterfly Effect. It is run by a friend of mine named Makayla McNeil. She's the founder and director of the butterfly effect. She's a domestic violence survivor, who uses her testimony and experience to help others. She also runs her own domestic violence project called Speak Out Convo’s you can find the links to the Anchor.com google.com and radio Republic links in the description. Welcome, Makayla. We're so excited to have you today.
Makayla: Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.
Marissa: Awesome. So, let's get started. You said that you have experienced domestic violence. Is that something that you're comfortable talking about with us?
Makayla: Yes, definitely. I've been in multiple domestic violence relationships. The first one started when I was 17. I feel like from a young age, I tried to seek validation in men, due to family trauma and certain things that I experienced in my childhood. At 17 I met a man who was very charismatic, very charming, swept me off my feet fairly quickly. In the beginning of our relationship, it was a lot of verbal abuse being called fat, ugly; told I would never be anything. And I feel like I kind of convinced myself like “well, it's not that bad. It's not physical.” His drinking started to pick up and it was a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde personality. I never knew what person I was going to get. He started kicking me hitting me punching me, biting me, spitting on me. I think the worst time that he had put his hands on me was when he choked me to the point of unconsciousness. And when I came to my senses, the paramedics were over me the neighbors had called the police. He had left at that point. The neighbors had called the paramedics and I was hospitalized for about a week. And due to there being no room in the domestic violence shelters, I was released to the streets, homeless with the clothes on my back that I left with. Sleeping on park benches in the middle of winter. Not knowing when I was going to eat; not knowing when I was going to shower. And years later, that kind of inspired me to create the Butterfly Effect project. Because it made me think about how many other men and women are going through what I've gone through or worse. And so that's the reason why I started the Butterfly Effect. The Butterfly Effect, I offer educational information on narcissistic behavior, mental health and how it's associated with domestic violence. I also talk a lot about healthy boundaries, healthy relationships and what intimate partner relationship is supposed to look like. I offer peer-to-peer support, I guide people to resources in their community. The Butterfly Effect originally started out with just a Facebook page of me telling my story. And honestly, I didn't think anybody was going to look at it. I've only been doing it for a little less than a year and I have 15,000 followers. I've done YouTube radio interviews; I've done a lot of speaking engagements talking about domestic violence and what healthy relationships look like. And my goal is to get my 501(C) and turn it into a non-profit organization. But I do help men and women all over the world all over the United States. Even though I am located in Iowa, I help people all over with whatever they need. If they need somebody to advocate for them through the court process, if they just need an ear somebody to talk to. Because a lot of times with domestic violence, we feel alone, we feel isolated. We feel like you know, there's no one we could really talk to, you know, there's a lot of judgment, a lot of victim blaming. When it comes to domestic violence in it, it makes it hard for people to want to speak up and speak out. So, I try to make my platform just open, loving, caring place so people know that they're not alone. And there are people that care and there are a lot of people who have experienced domestic violence and you're not alone in this situation even though you feel that you might be.
Marissa: That's amazing. Well, thank you for sharing your story with us. And I'm so excited that you're doing such amazing work and if you need help getting your 501(c)3 let me know. I could send you my paperwork. So tell us, What did you do throughout your healing process to help you become so strong?
Makayla: That's a really good question. Definitely did therapy, whether you choose to do therapy or not, it's very important to build a support network and find people you could talk to. I love to write poetry. I love journaling. I'm not going to lie, there was a period where I was heavily drinking. And I like to, you know, tell people, you know, drinking, smoking weed, unfortunately, it is legal in some states. But you know, that's not always the answer, you know? As hard as it is, we have to find those positive coping skills. Because although drinking is fun, if you're doing it for the wrong reasons, it is self harm. So, I think for my healing, I did a lot of talking about it talking about it helps. I always like to give people this analogy We're like a Pepsi bottle. If you shake the Pepsi bottle up and take off the cap, what happens? It explodes. So, us as humans were the same way. If we leave all that stuff inside, and we're not talking about it, we're not getting it out. You know, we're going to explode, we're going to blow up. And that's what I was doing for the longest. Just having these moments where I was just exploding. And like, oh, my goodness, you know, what's wrong with me? Why am I doing this, but it was because I was keeping all that anger and that hurt and that resentment in. I tell people, a lot of times when we're leaving our abusers, it's kind of like a grieving process, like we're grieving somebody who died. Because at one point or another, there was something that made us fall in love with that individual. In order to heal, you have to grieve and go through those emotions of losing that relationship. So, it was very difficult for me, I do suffer from depression, post traumatic stress, really bad anxiety because of my domestic violence situation. And I talk a lot on my Butterfly Effect about mental health and how it's associated with domestic violence. Because those situations of PTSD and depression are very pertinent when talking about domestic violence. I also have been in courtrooms with domestic violence victims and even going through the court process is hard. Like, a lot of people think, well, I'm going to leave my abuser in the works over. No, really the works just beginning because you have to fight the court system. I had to fight, to go back to that house to get my belongings back. It was very hard, because as I was living on the street, not having a place to live, he was texting me like, “Hey, you can come back here,” because he had bonded itself out of jail. I wanted to just to have a roof over my head. But I knew that if I went back that one time might be the last time that I couldn't come back from. And I knew that if I went back, you know what I'm saying, he probably more than likely was going to kill me. And that's why I do what I do. I speak out because there's a lot of people who've lost their lives at the hands of their perpetrator. There's a lot of people right now, who could be listening to this that don't feel like they have a voice to speak up and get out. I feel like we need to have more resources in our communities, more programs, more funding put into place for domestic violence, because not only did I have to fight my perpetrator, I felt like I was fighting the system as well. I felt disposable to the world. It was very degrading, not having a place to go, especially after being physically hurt. And I work a lot with legislators and lawmakers, I feel that we need to have a victims Protection Program put into place in every state. I feel that the perpetrators need to wear ankle bracelets, because a lot of time they go to jail, they get out and they go right back and end up murdering, or severely hurting the domestic violence victim. So, these are some things that I want to do. And I'm trying to be an active person in the community to get some of these things established and get some more laws put into place to protect domestic violence victims and survivors. I know I went a long way with that with your one question.
Marissa: No, it's good.
Makayla: That's what I did to heal. Talking about it, it would probably be the main thing. And there's no time limit on healing. I get a lot of questions through my butterfly effect about me and it's been five years, I'm still having these figures, I'm still going through this, I'm still dealing with that. So, I like to tell people you know, healing is a messy process. Some days are going to be good. Some days are going to be bad. You have to be patient and kind and gentle with yourself. During my domestic violence situation. My self esteem was broken down because I was constantly called names. And I started to believe the things that he was telling me. So, once we leave our domestic violence situation, we regain that sense of stability. We have our sense of worth again, for some people, it takes them off. For some people, it takes 10 years. For some people, it takes a lifetime for them to recover from it. And that's okay. And those are the things I like to tell people through my Butterfly Effect. I also have my own podcast, it's called Speak Out Convo’s, it's on anchor.com google.com and radio Republic. What it is that sometimes I get on there, and I give positive, encouraging motivational speeches. Other times I interview other people who have their own domestic violence organizations, I've interviewed paralegals, and got their aspect on domestic violence. I've interviewed authors, who wrote books about domestic violence. So, for anyone interested who might be to be on my podcast, please feel free to reach out to me through the Butterfly Effect, my link will be posted on the video, feel free to reach out to me whether you're a survivor, or you just want to tell your story. If you're an attorney, a police officer, anyone who wants to give their input on domestic violence or how it directly has affected them or their mental health. I love hearing from new people. I feel like each one of our stories is the key to somebody else's Survival Guide. And everybody's story is other people's strength to want to speak up and speak out. So that's a little bit about my podcast and some of the things that I do.
Marissa: That's amazing. And I couldn't agree more that the more people speak out, the more we inspire other people who are still silenced, to speak out and to find their own strength. So, thank you for doing that. And for doing everything you're doing. I'd love to come on your podcast, if you'll have me, I've done all of that. I speak out about my stories. I'm an author. I have programs and courses for confidence building, but we'll talk about that another time. So, you pretty much covered it but is there any additional advice that you'd give to survivors to help them on their healing journey?
Makayla: The most important thing is Be patient and kind and gentle with yourself. Sometimes we can be our own worst critics. And we're very hard on ourselves. We ask ourselves, what could we have done better so that this didn't happen? But we can't blame ourselves. We have to know that No matter what we said, no matter what we did, nobody deserves any type of violence. And please speak out, build your support network, find people that you can talk to. Find positive coping skills, whether it's journaling, taking a walk, listening to your favorite music, taking a bubble bath, five things and make yourself feel good. And know that you're not alone. Anybody that's listening, you could reach out to me day or night, my Butterfly Effect is very safe, a safe haven. We don't allow any negativity on the page. So, you're safe. And just know that you're not alone. And you will get through this there is life after abuse. I know sometimes it doesn't seem that way. When we're going through our difficult situations, it's hard to see the greater good, and see that there is a life beyond that. There definitely is. And thank you so much for having me on here today. And given me an opportunity to speak about the Butterfly Effect and what I do. It definitely means a lot to me.
Marissa: Of course, I'm so happy to have you. And thank you for doing all the fantastic work you're doing with and for survivors and champions of abuse. I am so grateful that there are people like you out there that are helping to inspire and empower people. You know, we need more people like that in our community to help boost us up because truly we have the numbers. There are more survivors and there are more champions than there are narcissists. And when we band together and collectively help each other heal, we can and will eventually change the world.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
The Butterfly Effect for Domestic Violence Survivors Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/Butterflyeffectforvictimsandsurvivors
Makayla's Podcast : Speak Out Convos :
https://podcasts.apple.com/lb/podcast/speak-out-convos/id1499506466
https://anchor.fm/makayla-mcneal/episodes/Marissa-Cohen-AuthorActivist-Speaker-egicml?fbclid=IwAR2DZ9lwjl7TTyaguk-K-VhECaf4bZGv-dKHyaO_36sqrNAA8Fgc413cR7c
narcissist. narcissism. overcoming narcissism. toxic relationship. toxic people. ways to heal. how to heal from emotional abuse. living with a narcissist. good friends. healthy relationship. intimate partner violence. intimate partner relationship. healthy relationships. self love. confidence. self esteem. low self esteem. self esteem activities. confidence exercises. breaking through the silence.
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today we're continuing our chat about military sexual trauma and talking with the victims who have been affected by the IAmVanessaGuillen conversation and have experienced military sexual trauma. So today, I'm really honored to bring on Sherry Yetter. Sherry Yetter is a military spouse. She has a master's degree in organizational leadership from Gonzaga University is a military sexual misconduct subject matter expert, a credentialed Military Sexual Assault Response coordinator, and a victim advocate, and a survivor of sexual assault, military sexual harassment, MST, military sexual trauma, and retaliation. Sherry was a victim of military sexual harassment and public retaliation by a general officer while employed as a Sexual Assault Response coordinator for the military. She's still waiting for them to do better. Sherry and her husband, a senior marine officer currently reside in Virginia. Thank you so much for being here, Sherry. Wow, you are about as involved in the sexual assault world as I am.
Sherry: Yes, one could definitely say that I bring a unique perspective to everything that is sexual harassment and military sexual trauma in in the military, just because of my training, education and experience. And then, of course, being a spouse. So…
Marissa: Wow. Well, thank you for your service to survivors. You are incredible. And I'm so excited to talk to you more about this.
Sherry: Oh, well, thank you for having me on the podcast. This is actually my very first podcast. So, I'm kind of nervous, but I'm ready to go as well, because it's important. Everything that we've learned from Vanessa Guillen’s case, over the past few weeks, and unfortunately, two months, it has just been heartbreaking. And it has reminded me of my commitment to helping other survivors learn the power of their voices, and hopefully bringing all of us together so that our collective voices will be heard and change will happen.
Marissa: Yes! The more people that we can get to speak up, the more likely you are to make a change. We have to put pressure on the system, and you're doing a phenomenal job doing that. So, thank you so much.
Sherry: It's my pleasure.
Marissa: Would you mind telling us a little bit about what you experienced while working for the military?
Sherry: Oh, gosh, how much time do we have, Marissa? The reason I see that I kind of joke about it is because you're going into our eighth year of the fight for justice. I was originally a sexually harassed by a marine officer, who was my supervisor, back in 2013. He left in 2014. I quite unexpectedly, I was transitioning to a new billet and new job. So, I didn't really care that he was going, you know, I felt like I had, handled the situation at the time to the best of my ability. I hadn't been able to file a report. I had been discouraged from doing so by another supervisor that I had at the time, because I was a newbie working for the Marine Corps. I was still within my probationary period. And so, I took what they said to heart, even though I had years of experience in other areas with other branches of service. This was my dream job. And I really wanted to do a great job helping Marines and families. So, when that other supervisor told me, “Well, you know, do you really want to do that? Because once you ring that bell, it can't be unrung. And, you know, not only could your career be impacted your husband's career as well.” So here I was a new employee, and I'd already been sexually harassed. Another supervisor tells me, you know, don't ring that bell because your husband's careers is being threatened now as well. So, I didn't, and I continued working in a very hostile work environment. And slowly I became aware that I was not the only victim of this marine officer.
Marissa: Wow. Okay. So, by speaking up, you connected with Other people who have been harassed by the same person?
Sherry: Well, yes and no. And the only people who knew that I had spoke up initially, were one, the supervisor that harassed me, and to my other supervisor, who is the one who discouraged me from going forward. My colleagues, my co workers, no one else knew, I couldn't even tell my husband what had happened at that time. In fact, I didn't tell him for almost another two and a half years or so. So, the way that I became aware was just the powers of observation. And then after he left slowly, after the officer that had sexually harassed me, after he left the building, I slowly began to get to know other individuals. And I could pick up on the signs, and we built trust, collaborative trust. And eventually it just kind of came out. So that's how I learned.
Marissa: Wow. So, I want to focus on that for a minute. Because I think that's so huge, that nobody really ever talks about it, are serial abusers. Right? People who abuse more than one person and they keep doing it, because they don't face any consequences or repercussions for their actions?
Sherry: Absolutely. This individual exhibited the standard predatorial grooming behaviors. This wasn't the first time he had done this. And I knew that. I had years and years of experience in working in male dominated industries. So, this wasn't my first trip to the rodeo, so to speak, when he did what he did. And I would love to go into more detail. But unfortunately, some of this is still at a federal investigation and legal arena. So, I don't want to stay anything that's going to get me into trouble with that. And but what I can't talk about is that my experience and what happened with that. When he did what he did, and he sexually harassed me, there's no doubt about that one, I handled it the way that I had always handled inappropriate behaviors and phrases, or the way that that men would talk to me. At one point in my career, I have worked with used car salesman.
Marissa: I know what you mean.
Sherry: He was the used car salesman that I've worked with, and I worked with them all over the country, I was a trainer, and I would visit them in their spaces, not mine. Their spaces, I never once felt threatened by them. I was never sexually harassed by them in a way that made me feel uncomfortable. The way that this marine officer sexually harassed me, there was a clear difference in the intent of what he was trying to accomplish. Somebody saying to me, “Well, hey, you know what, you look really nice today.” Well, thank you. I appreciate that. There's a big difference between that and the intent behind someone who is deliberately trying to harm you and it was apparent. So, me being the farm girl from Iowa, what did I do when this marine officer said something to me? And then demonstrated is, shall I say, affection in a very physical way? I just I handled it. I was more afraid the first time that it happened. I didn't want to embarrass him. Because I thought, well, maybe it's just a male physical reaction that he just couldn't control. I don’t know… I'm not a guy. I don't have those body parts. So, I don't know if they can control it or not. But the second time, literally the same things happen again, I knew that the first time definitely had not been an accident, per se. And I just said a few choice words, about him probably needing to meet my husband and I got up and walked away. I had handled it. In my mind, I handled it, which is what a lot of other women or other victims of sexual harassment do is that we just we handle it. And we go on.
Marissa: Right? No, you're totally right. And even if the problem isn't resolved, we don't speak about it and get that person in trouble. Like you said before your job was threatened. Your husband's job was threatened. It was almost like a threat on your reputation, and then you'd have the whole Marine Corps to answer to and that's not safe for you. So, what you did, was that in your mind at that point, the safe option, right?
Sherry: Absolutely, I did, I took the safest option. Then it wasn't until later, as I was going through my training to become a credentialed Sexual Assault Response Coordinator, SARC, that I realized that yes, I had handled it the best way that I could at the time, but that I had done a disservice to my sisters, the other civilian Marines, the other Marines in the building, anyone else who could have potentially been a victim of this individual. And that's when I decided to step forward no matter what, and bring light to what this individual had done. Little did I know that it would be such a long process for justice, that I would have to fight each and every step of the way. But I'm not going to give up I'm not going to go away, and I won't be silent. I just want to help other victims, find their own voices.
Marissa: I love your spirit. And I love your attitude, because what you're enduring, and I'll come back to talking about this legal or asking you rather about this legal process, because I'm sure it's horrendous, and back and forth, and the bureaucracy is crap. But there are two things I want to talk about, before we get to that. The first thing is, I want to go back to him being a serial abuser, because I forget what the hunting ground said. But they said 9% of males are perpetrators, which is a very low number. But of that 9%, like 86% of them will harass or assault six or more people. So, I feel like I haven't had a chance to ever really focus on that. And I'd love to talk to you because you have so much experience with a serial abuser. I'd love to just pick your brain about that. Is that cool?
Sherry: Oh, absolutely. It's funny that you would mention those particular statistics. Because in my building, just on the Marine Corps Base that we worked on, I know that there were at least four victims by the same marine officer, two of which came forward, myself and another person, and then two others that I know of that have remained silent, but still supportive. And I respect their decisions to protect their anonymity. And I think a large part of that is because of what the other victim and I that did come forward have experienced with the Marine Corps. Clearly, this was not his first time doing this. This wasn't the first time that he took advantage of his perceived power, as a leader to sexually harass or groom or take advantage of the situation with 80 of the subordinates, or really anyone in his proximity.
Marissa: It's disgusting. You know, I don't know exactly what you went through. And I'm not going to ask for any further detail. But I get so upset, even though this is the field I work in, this is what I do for a living every day. It's still like grosses me out so much that people like him, get away with this, you know, and that he can offend so many people because even if people speak up, you said you were fighting this for seven years now. I mean, this happened in 2013, And he still has not faced consequences, I imagine.
Sherry: Well, to an extent he has Yes. So, I could tell you, in generic terms, what he did, I could also direct you to Google, my name and Marine Corps and any number of articles are going to pop up because there was national coverage on my case, because of the fight that we've had to be heard. to have proper investigations done, which is a whole another podcast just all on its own. The accountability piece finally came in, believe it or not 2017 when he came back to work in the same building that I am one of the other victims were still working in. At that time, when he came back to our building, I was literally beside myself and so I pursued the formal charges against him utilizing the civilian employee EEO process. I had to fight to be heard. I had to fight to get the investigations done, and I kept getting ignored. Literally ignored. It took a really long time to tell you through all of the things that happened in between. But finally came to head in 2018 when I reached out to the USA Today, and they did a story or did articles on what I and the other victim that had come forward had experienced with this individual. That then cause the Commandant of the Marine Corps to order another investigation. But this time I think they took it a lot more seriously because they brought in a department of justice attorney, who also happened to be a marine reservist, he was a Colonel, and he conducted the most thorough investigation that we had been a part of, Thus far. All the other investigations have been very shoddy. But the results of this led to, in the Marine Corps, what they call a board of inquiry. And that is an administrative function where the board can, board consists of three members, and those individuals can determine whether or not the Marine Corps retains this individual, or whether they in layman's term, So, my favorite words to say right now is, they kick them out. It was determined that he was guilty. And they stated that they were going to kick him out. The sad part is that most of the branches of service, once an individual is found guilty of whatever charges it is that they face, he faced three different types of charges. Two out of the three he was found guilty on but they said he was going to be forcibly retired was the punishment. It took them 18 months before he was off the base. Before he was retired. Another 18 months. So, when I say legally was, he held responsible? I had mixed feelings about that. The man retired with the full benefits and a full retirement.
Marissa: And I'm sure it was honorable. It wasn't dishonorable or medical, which is I mean, he didn't even deserve medical. He wasn't dishonorably discharged, even though he was found guilty for harassment. I don't mean to laugh, but like, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If he had murdered someone or I don't know stolen an extra, you know meal, then maybe he would have been dishonorably discharged. But then he could be found guilty on a panel by military personnel and still be on base for 18 months and retire with everything. I just… you and I are going to have a proper investigation podcast if that's okay with you.
Sherry: It just the investigation, the final investigation that happened was key. It is the one that led to that small part of justice that I feel. Because he had, what I hadn't mentioned before is that, this individual had been selected for promotion to Lieutenant Colonel. This individual had also been selected for command, this individual was going to be leading a command that was full of the vulnerable population, before they even got into the military. I just couldn't let that happen. Not knowing what I did.
Marissa: That's amazing how strong and brave and courageous you are for taking that on. I mean, think about it. He clearly has the Marine Corps in the palm of his hand. They've been letting him get away with this behavior for so long. And there's no way that not a single person on the base before you either experienced it or noticed something weird about him. Like we give off energy. And people feel that weirdness from people you know. You get the creeps from people that you don't talk to, there's not a chance in hell, that this guy didn't give off some creepy-weird vibe or like set somebody off. And yet he still was up for Lieutenant Colonel which is a huge power position. And there's a ton of people underneath you and on top of that commander of the base. I mean, that's sick.
Sherry: Right commander of a base but he was going to be commander of a military entrance processing station. So, all of those individuals looking to go into the service would have been passing through his command.
Marissa: That's literally what happened to me with my harasser. He harassed me, two people after me, and then they moved him to recruiting. So, he couldn't go prey on the vulnerable, the most vulnerable population. I don't get it.
Sherry: Absolutely. And that's what I should have said, the most vulnerable population. I'm sorry, I was laughing when you were talking about the creepy behaviors, because that's what I said about him, is that his behaviors were just they were creepy. When I was initially trying to describe them, that that's the part of predators and their behaviors. When somebody makes you uncomfortable, because they're invading your space, you can tell the difference between someone who just doesn't understand personal space, and then somebody who is just being creepy. And that's the way his behaviors were.
Marissa: You're right, there's a very big difference between someone who doesn't understand space and personal bubbles, and someone who's doing it to assert dominance. And that's what it seems like he was doing. And anyone else who is an abuser, they will also use that tactic, because it makes you feel almost like submissive and them feel dominant.
Sherry: Absolutely, he had a behavior where he would come and stand directly behind your chair in our cubicle space. Literally directly behind you so that when you turn to acknowledge him, like, why are you standing there, you would have to turn and then lift your head up, so that you could look him in the face instead of looking him in areas that you probably didn't want to look at.
Marissa: I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh. It's just, I mean, I get it, I totally get it. So, I also wanted to go back and talk about your response. Because I never want anyone to feel like they have to justify, you know, well, this is what I did in the moment because it felt right. But now I feel bad. There are five immediate responses, right? There's fight flight, freeze toxic immobility, and fawn. And any of those responses is your brain's immediate reaction to keep you safe in the moment.
Sherry: I absolutely agree. And I would never criticize anyone who makes any one of those decisions. I think that by going through the training that I did, in the SAPR world, in the SHARP world, I was learning that there were other things that I could have done. And when I say I felt bad, I did, I felt that I had potentially let others down on, I don't blame myself for that I did what I had to do at the time. But I think that it opened up my eyes, so to speak, in that I needed to be a part of that change. And I needed to assist others other victims by empowering them to step forward by sharing my own story. Little did I know that it would last for as long as it has. And I would end up being retaliated against multiple times. My favorite was by a general officer. But it's that we can't make this stuff up that has happened as part of this process. I mean, I love to write. And I would like to think that I'm creative, but I have nothing on these individuals that have done what they have done in order to either protect the institution that is the Marine Corps, or to protect the marine because, well, you know, they're a Marine, right? So, we have to protect them.
Marissa: I appreciate you saying all that, to tell us a little bit about what's been happening for the last seven years, you don't have to go into detail. I'm sure that you're not even allowed to go into detail. But the amount of work and the amount of backlash that you get fighting for justice after an assault on the civilian side, is like an average of four years and you have to retell your story 1000 times. What's it like on the military side, because I can only imagine it being so much more difficult.
Sherry: On the military side, it is more difficult because you have to balance the military side and the civilian side. So, if your offender is military, it just adds in other layers of complexity to determining what are the right steps. And then as a civilian employee, it's not the normal response time that you have. We only have 45 days as a government employee to file a sexual harassment complaint against someone. You may be months into figuring out that you are even being sexually harassed. So, a lot of times your 45-day window is long gone.
Marissa: That's a really dumb rule. And I get it because they want to protect their own. And they also don't understand why people don't speak up right away. There's that negative connotation of mental health in the military that's still very 1950s. So, like, I understand that, but can you expand a little bit on it?
Sherry: Sure. So, this is exactly why I have shared my story. I'm beginning to share more and more of my story. What happened to me happened over a period of time, it was complicated. I had training in this area, I had experienced sexual harassment and sexual assault before, but I was not immune to experiencing it again, this time with a military offender. For those junior enlisted or junior officers. They're very new in their careers, and they are even more afraid than I was to come forward and potentially harm their careers. So, what do they do? They don't say anything, they deal with it on their own as best they can. Or they just as we say, in the military, we compartmentalize. We just put it away, we don't deal with it. And then the individual, the offender goes on to get exponentially more powerful in their own beliefs that, hey, I can do this. I did this before I can do it again. And the process itself for the military personnel, because it is a commander-led program, it gets very complicated. Those individuals with military personnel first have to have trust, faith, and confidence in their command leadership, that they're going to do the right thing. And sometimes they walk in and they're thinking, Man, this command is going to be just right there with me, and they're going to be supportive. And that's when they get the questions like, why were you there? Why were you drinking? What were you wearing? These are questions that these victims still get asked. And it's ridiculous. And then people wonder why the victims don't come forward. Whether it's sexual harassment; whether it's sexual assault; whether it's hazing; whether it's bullying; whether it's retaliation. I don't wonder why I know exactly why people.
Marissa: Tell us about the retaliation. You said you were retaliated against by general officers?
Sherry: Oh, yes. Let's go back to my bio, I worked as a Sexual Assault Response coordinator. So, I was attached to another division, where I oversaw the SAPR program for 5000+ Marines, civilian Marines and their families. But I was also operationally a part of the marine and Family Programs division. Well, the general officer in charge of that division, took it upon himself to publicly discuss the command investigation that had just been ordered by the Commandant of the Marine Corps in front of probably 150 individuals — I'm not exactly sure how many — of my colleagues and co-workers and peers, he decided to discuss the fact that there had been USA Today articles about our cases, and that command investigation had been opened. But he decided to categorize our cases and our experiences as fake news and pardon my language, but, “Bullshit.”
Marissa: That's disgusting. And that sounds like it would be a violation of some sort of right. I understand that when you make an investigation, it's very public, but to go and spew that kind of slander. I mean, that just builds distrust against the SAPR program, which already is a very criticized program.
Sherry: Absolutely. Especially when you are the general officer in charge of the SAPR program for the entire Marine Corps. The message that was sent was very intimidating. It exacerbated an already hostile work environment for both myself and the other victim that had come forward. It became a complete nightmare for us, not that it hadn't been before. But this took us to a whole new level. Ironically, the Commandant had just days before, had released a new order in the Marine Corps. That was the prohibited activities and conduct order — that describes behaviors that Marines and civilian marines were not to do. Of which retaliation is one of them. This general officer when the investigation began on what he had done, what he had said, basically stated, “well, you know, I'm known for my frat boy humor locker room talk and I hadn't even read the New Order yet that the commandant had released.” If you're a general officer, one of the first things that you should do is when the commandant releases a critical order for all Marines, and you lead the SAPR program, you ought to read the word anyway. No, he didn't. So, he ended up being relieved of command. There was no explanation as to what he was relieved for. And then he was reassigned. He was a brigadier general at the time, he was reassigned to another command, not within the building. And then he was allowed to very quietly retire two years later, again, with full benefits. He was not held accountable.
Marissa: None of these guys are. You can't see me right now. But I rolled my eyes a couple times at the shit that he was saying, and the fact that, “Oh, well, I you know, it's like a boy’s club, locker room talk. I'm an inappropriate person.” If I go to work somewhere and my sense of humor is a little inappropriate, I don't act that way. At work, there's an element of professionalism, that he seemed to be lacking. And I think it's disgusting that he was a brigadier general allowed to go in, “Locker room talk.” It's repulsive.
Sherry: I agree, it is very repulsive. But then there was another element to this where this individual as a civil officer was standing in front of the division, essentially, giving his speech to a roomful of other leaders to include an SES, the chief of staff, the Sergeant Major other branch heads, what did they do? They did nothing. They didn't intervene. They didn't stop him. And so, by their silence, they conveyed to the other employees in that room that there was tacit approval for what he was saying. How was I supposed to feel safe in that building after that? I don't know.
Marissa: The point was that you weren't supposed to feel safe in that building. That was like a direct threat to you. Indirectly. That makes sense.
Sherry: Absolutely. So that's where we are right now is with the retaliation piece is still moving forward. Even though the original harm was the sexual harassment, there have just been additional layers of ostracism, retaliation, and fighting to be believed in the investigations, and the lack of investigations, and the EEO process. And the agency Council for the Marine Corps behaviors, you know, by circling the wagons, so to speak to protect the institution. While, not taking care of the victims.
Marissa: I have a weird question for you.
Sherry: Marissa, there's nothing weird. So, I haven't heard so go right in it.
Marissa: If you could go back in time, to right before the investigation started. What do you do this all over again?
Sherry: Yes, I would do it again. But Wow, that's a difficult question. I say yes. And I know I would. But if I knew, then all of the pain that I would go through, and the fight that it would take to get justice, it would be a lot harder to answer. Because it hasn't just affected me. It's affected my husband, his career, our children, my grandchildren. This has been going on for so long, and it has impacted, you know, pivotal moments in my children's lives, that should have been very happy occasions. But ironically, something would always happen literally right before a key moment. Like the birth of a grandchild or my daughter's wedding. Or you know, just going to pick out her wedding dress. Literally every single time those types of key moments were going to happen. Something happened literally seconds before the event, which of course, impacts me. It impacts them. Um, so it if I knew it was going to impact all of them so much, I don't know that it would have. If I knew that it was going to take me to such a dark place in my own life, where I fully admit I was suicidal for quite a long time. I don't know that I would do it.
Marissa: Thank you for disclosing that. You've probably heard this 1000 times, but you're not alone. And you always have me, and this giant supportive community, at your disposal when you need us. If you ever feel that way, again, you can always count on us to catch you.
Sherry: It has taken me a long time to get to that point where I'm very, I'm very comfortable in my skin again. I don't think I will go back to that depth. So now I'm going back and I'm just like, you know, remembering where I was, I could give a more resounding — Absolutely, yes! I would do this all over again, just simply because I don't want anyone else to ever, ever, ever feel that level of pain and despair that I felt.
Marissa: Thank you for fighting for people and working with people. But mostly, fighting to get the bad people out of power positions. I really appreciate it. And I'm sure a ton of people, you know, are very grateful for your effort, and the pain that you and your family have gone through. It's not going unnoticed.
Sherry: Thank you. My goal is just to help anybody that I can.
Marissa: What does the military need to do or what needs to be done to change the protocol to be more victim-centered, more survivor centered?
Sherry: You know, to be honest, and to be fair, the SAPR programs that are in effect now, when they are run effectively, are done pretty well. Those committed individuals that haven't been a SARC, there are really committed individuals out there doing their best to make sure that the victims are taken care of. Where I see the problems are with a commander-LEAD program. And commanders who don't want to give up that level of power or oversight over a sexual assault case or a sexual harassment case. I think that the lack of accountability is the biggest issue in the military. They're not holding the offenders accountable. They're not being equitable in that accountability, when they do hold someone to the letter of the law, or the Uniform Code of Military Justice UCMJ. They need to get over that different spanks for different ranks mentality. And they need to stop thinking about, well, if we don't report these numbers, or we can handle this in house, that we're just making the service better. No, you're not. You're just perpetuating that continual systemic issue of sexual harassment in the ranks, and nothing will ever change. We have to begin with accountability, it has to begin individually And at the command level, there isn't one person that can do it all for everyone. It just has to be come the new systemic norm.
Marissa: You're completely right. I mean, one person can’t change the whole system, but one person can start the domino effect that does.
Sherry: Absolutely one of the things that I've always said, every time I gave my training, to the Marines or to civilians, I really say, folks, this is not rocket science. If it doesn't belong to you, Don't touch it. If you haven't asked permission, don’t touch it. It has to begin with yourself. And you have to be the one to step up and say something when you see something that is wrong. I did that. I just didn't expect it to be as painful and long as a process as this has been.
Marissa: I think that needs to change. I mean, I think that on top of accountability being the first step, I think it needs to also fall into place that the initial reaction shouldn't be, “Well, what were you wearing? Or, you know, maybe they just got confused.” I wholeheartedly disagree. I don't think I've ever gotten confused and accidentally touched somebody or gotten confused that maybe they're no actually meant Yes. Like it's never been a language barrier thing. It's I'm off my soapbox now.
Sherry: Oh, no, I completely understand because being asked, are you sure it was them? Or you probably were just misinterpreting what they were saying or what they were trying to do. I'm sorry, how do you misinterpret some of these hand down your shirt or them having an erection in front of you? Or you being asked how much alcohol you had consumed, or why you were even there. None of those are relevant. The bottom line is, they didn’t Ask for consent. I'm not the problem here. The offender is.
Marissa: Yes, the offenders are the ones who always makes the choice to offend. They are the one who have the choice right or wrong. The ball is in their court. They choose the wrong decision, and with that choice that they made, not the survivor but the perpetrator, they should be held accountable. Because in kindergarten we learnt that there are consequences for every reaction but apparently when you are a powerful position in the military that lessen from 5 years going out the window.
Sherry: Absolutely. You have to play nice in the sandbox but you still have to ask for permission. You still have to ask for consent. And when they don’t give it or when they are passed out, they are not giving you consent to do whatever it is that you want to do. Its not a hall pass per say you don’t need to do what you have to do just because you won’t get to do it like
Marissa: Exactly. Last question and then I promise I will let you go on with your day What advice would you give to survivors or do give to survivors that come to you? Or what’s the first thing you say to them?
Sherry: Well, the first thing I say to them is usually a question I ask them how are they doing? And they usually look at me like I’m crazy like I don’t know what I’m doing. But the reason why I ask that is for you to start thinking about how it is that they are responding to the situation. Then the second thing that I say to them is I thank them for trusting me with this information. Because as a survivor, as a victim myself I understand how important that rebuilding a trust with this individual, let alone somebody that you are sharing the most intimate of details with or the fact that you are sharing your vulnerability, essentially, with another person who knows personally how hard it is for you so you know so first I ask them how they are doing and make them think about it and then I say thank you for trusting me with your vulnerability. I’m not going to take advantage of that.
Marissa: That’s amazing and very helpful. And it’s really good for trust building especially with people who are vulnerable and feeling very violated. So thank you for doing that. Do you have any books or any pages that you would want to plug?
Sherry: I’m still working on a website and I’m starting to write more. So I have an article that I’m hoping to get publish soon in a major publication. And I’m also writing children’s books now about they are just like consent. How to ask those types of questions that we need to ask. About respect, and boundaries. I’ll also tell you, since this is my first podcast, I am also starting to write my book about what I have experienced. I don’t know when that will be able to come out, but there will be a book in my future.
Marissa: If you would like to coauthor on any of the, I would be honored to work with you. Writing a children’s book has always been on my bucket list.
Sherry: I love the idea of collaboration with other victims and survivors. That are in the field. We have such a unique perspective on it. If we can help one little boy or one little girl from never experiencing what we have… I always say on my tombstone, I want them to put, “Well, she tried.”
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Sherry's Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWGkYF5C5m4&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2WgfeLcjyyDGwQ8jEfZaEZnP3OC0UxeNpY4fktp3Mapl6vD25Horji57o
More Information about Sherry's Event:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/10/28/major-david-cheek-sexual-harassment-involuntary-retirement/1788337002/
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/david-cheek-retire
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Welcome back to Breaking Through Our Silence. In the last few weeks, I’ve seen a social media surge related to the Free Britney and the FreeBritney movement. To be honest, I had no idea what that meant, as I’d never heard of it before. So, I did a little bit of digging, and was distraught at my findings. Britney Spears, Pop Princess and icon is a prisoner of her own life. And on July 22nd, 2020, her case is being brought up and reexamined in front of a new judge. I’ve compiled a little bit of background information, but ultimately, I want you to make your own, informed decision about it. I can speak confidently when I say that I believe that this is absolutely domestic violence.
The music industry is toxic and has a tendency to be extremely restrictive with its entertainers. You could see that with Kesha, Miley Cyrus, Justin Bieber, Jojo, and thousands of other people who were out of control of their lives. With younger people, like Miley and Justin, it manifests in rebellious behavior. Think about a time when you were out of control, and you acted out in a way that gave you some semblance of control back. I can think of a ton for myself. Now, think about having no control over your life, and being surrounded by managers, paparazzi, and people who restrict the food you eat, the things you’re allowed to do and say, the way your time is spent, basically every avenue of your free will. Well, that’s what led to Britney Spears infamous meltdown and the shaved head fiasco of 2007. That meltdown led to a court mandated conservatorship, where her father and lawyer have complete control over Britney’s life. Her finances, her access to her children, where she goes, what she eats. Her entire free will, and every major decision in her life. At the snap of a finger, they can decide she’s unwell, and involuntarily put her in a home. Which, I’ll tell you about, because they’ve done that.
If you think about it, that lack of control can be considered abusive, right? What is an abusive relationship? It’s a pattern of behavior that manipulates and coerces someone into doing things they don’t want to do, or disallows them to do the things that they want to do. Whether it be with violence, words, psychologically, finances and spirituality. There are a ton of ways to control somebody. In the case of the entertainment industry, there are signed contracts that takes away all the rights to free will. But in conservatorships like Britney’s, she doesn’t have any choices. There is not another situation in this country where that is ever the case.
Spears' former photographer Andrew Gallery recently went public with a letter that he claims was written by the singer in third-person, in which she reportedly opened up about the infamous 2007-08 period, and expressed dissatisfaction over her conservatorship, saying that she "has no rights.”
According to NYT, her father earn a $130,000 salary for his job of being her conservator, and he was also awarded 1.5 percent of the gross revenues from her performances and merchandise sales connected to her Las Vegas residency Piece of Me, despite his daughter being the one to put in all work on stage.
This sounds eerily similar to financial abuse, doesn’t it? On one hand, I understand that someone who isn’t cognitively able to manage their finances would need assistance in doing so. But those people typically aren’t on stage every night, with a Las Vega residency, or generally aren’t touring the world in the entertainment industry. But a person who is functional, but has no control of their finances, and no access to their finances, that is downright abuse. No?
Financial abuse is when the abuser has full control over the household finances. They could be the funds the abuser works for or the survivor brings in. But ultimately, the survivor has no access to the funds. That is a key word, ACCESS to the funds. Somebody overseeing and managing her money would still grant her access. She receives an allowance of the money that she brings in, and it can only be spent on approved items. Doesn’t that sound restrictive to you? That is textbook financial abuse.
The terms of Spears' conservatorship changed in September of 2019 when Jamie requested to step down as her conservator "due to personal health reasons,” People reported, following an alarming alleged physical altercation with Britney’s oldest son, who is 13. It was rumored that he was going to be forced to step down because of this physical altercation — physical abuse.
Spears herself has rarely spoken of the conservatorship publicly, aside from her 2008 documentary Britney: For the Record, in which she didn't specifically mention the conservatorship but seemed to be frustrated with her new situation. "I think it’s too in control," she said. "If I wasn’t under the restraints I’m under, I’d feel so liberated. Even when you go to jail, you know there’s the time when you’re going to get out. But in this situation, it’s never-ending.”
This all came to light on April 16, 2019, when hosts of podcast Britney's Gram, and Spears super-fans Tess Barker and Barbara Gray received an anonymous voicemail from a man claiming to be a paralegal who worked for one of Spears' lawyers. Barker and Grey said they validated his profession and believed him to be a credible source, but did not disclose his identity. The man claimed that fans' worst fears had come true, insinuating that Jamie was forcing his daughter to take unnecessary medications and claiming that Jamie pulled the plug on Domination when Spears refused to take her prescribed medication. The claims have not been publicly verified by Spears or another source.
According to this same source, a January incident where she reportedly drove to In-N-Out without permission led Jamie to involuntarily check her into a facility in mid-January, not April as was previously reported. Neither Spears nor her camp have commented on the allegations, and it is not publicly confirmed whether Britney is even prescribed medication. Although her now-former manager Larry Rudolph did tell TMZ that Domination was cancelled in part because her "meds stopped working." But for fans who were concerned for her well-being, this was enough to start an entire Free Britney movement.
Mentally challenged people are an extremely vulnerable population to being abused and assaulted. The stigma painted against mental health, and people that suffer from challenges within mental health are more likely to be doubted, and their concerns ignored or undervalued because of the “state of their mental health.” So, to paint Britney as mentally unstable as a means to controlling her makes a lot of sense, doesn’t it? If they can convince people that her meltdown was due to mental illness, and not acting out of a lack of control of her life, they can have MORE control over her. It’s honestly classic abuser thinking. Don’t you think?
I urge you to think about this. Under what criteria would someone be refused complete control of their lives. Prison? No, they still have the autonomy to make decisions. They decide what they can and can’t eat. They decide how to spend money. They have the autonomy to make time-related decisions. And they are in control of their bodies. The military? No. They have access to psychiatric and psychological resources. They have control over their money. They can ask to transfer, see their families, and negotiate their contracts. They can also leave. People in assisted living situations have rights. They have freedoms. They have choices. She doesn’t have any of those things. And she is forced to perform, be used as a cash-cow, that we now know her father was benefitting from financially. She has no rights. She has no choices. She has no freedom. She isn’t able to see her kids without her father present, and as I’ve mentioned, he has had physical altercations with them in the past.
One more thing I want to discuss because this has been a point of refutal for a lot of people. She has publicly stated on social media platforms and in interviews that she has a very close relationship with her family, and is very happy. There are several reasons that somebody in an abusive relationship would say that. First and foremost, her social media is hawked by the people who control her. She is only allowed to say the things that they tell her to say. She has in the past been penalized for saying and doing things without permission. So that fear of retaliation and danger is very common in abusive situations. If you've ever experienced an abusive relationship think about a time where you said something or did something to appease your abuser in order to prevent an explosion or altercation, and to keep yourself safe. It's very, very common for people to defend their abusers and justify the actions because of love, fear, or trauma bonding, which is a mix of both.
Trauma bonding is a cycle of physical or emotional abuse that creates a strong attachment between an abused person and their abuser, which is then reinforced by periods of love and affection and then periods of devaluation and emotional abuse. Our brains become addicted to the intense cycle of highs and lows.
When you’re in a healthy relationship, natural amounts of dopamine, the neurotransmitter, are released in your brain, so you can feel consistently happy. When you’re in an abusive relationship, the amount of dopamine that’s released during the highs is so intense that you crave it during the lows.
Nothing about this environment is healthy, safe, or reasonable. And July 22nd, 2020, I hope the new judge has the foresight to see that this is a binding abusive situation that they had legally forced her into.
Britney Spears has not had that luxury of free will since 1999, but legally since 2008, post meltdown. It’s time to Free Britney.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent, freebritney, free britney, free britney movement, free britney spears, britney spears slave, britney spears free britney, britney spears free, free britney 2020, britney free,
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to the breaking through the speaking out movement podcast connection. I'm Marissa F. Cohen. And I'm thrilled to be partnering with the amazing and talented Rob Crowther of the Bob Culture Podcast. How are you today, Rob?
Rob: Hey Marissa it's good to be talking to you. We're doing some great work here. You know, like I always say, you've been a big help in my personal life, in my creative life, and I can't think of a better tag-team partner right now to get the hot tag other than us. So thank you again, for having me on.
Marissa: Well, the feeling is mutual. I really enjoy our time together, working together. You're awesome. So today, we're excited to introduce our co-host, Liz Savage. Liz Savage is an American professional wrestler, wrestling manager and wrestling personality, and a #Speakout champion based out of New York. She got her start with dangerous women of wrestling in 2003. After moving to LA in 2010, she took a hiatus from wrestling from the Wrestling World, due to an assault by her friend and colleague. She has been a huge advocate for survivors and champions during the #speakingout movement. And Rob and I are honored to bring her on today to chat about what she experienced and what needs to be changed. Welcome to the show. Liz, we're so excited.
Liz: Thank you, guys. Thanks Marissa. Thanks Rob. It's, it's been a crazy couple of weeks with everything going on. And honestly, when I posted my story to Twitter, I didn't even expect it to be heard the way it did. Or for it to send you kind of shockwaves through the wrestling community and the way it did. Unfortunately, you know, I don't feel people are still taking it seriously enough. And I feel like unless we stay on them, this shit is just gonna keep perpetuating. So I'm a little history as you said, I started wrestling in 2003. I have a background in theater. I have a background in journalism, and I do podcasts and host shows. That’s my variety of experience, and some has been with wrestling music, Cannabis, a whole host of different things. And I knew deep through wrestling, I had gotten involved in wrestling in 2003. In 2006. I got to be an extra on Monday Night Raw. And when I got to be an extra on Raw that same night, we ended up going and hanging out with some of the production staff versus the wrestlers. They're on lockdown. To be honest. That night, it was Fourth of July weekend in Philly. And that's when I met Dave. Dave added me on Twitter. And then he added me on Myspace and we talk all the time because I was a female booker. I booked for a couple different companies. I also, you know, was a prominent manager in the Northeast at the time, and I was wrestling mostly because my mouth got me in trouble. You know, as what happens with managers. So I didn't really think of Dave as anything other than a friend. I thought of him as a very good friend. And we talked a lot. We talked about, you know, character development and storylines. And you know, the things that you would talk about with wrestling, it was never anything blurry or anything weird or anything like that. Also, because I had a wrestling bully, I didn't really mind the dirt sheets at all at those times, because there was usually some horrible stuff being posted about me by my wrestling bully. But, you know, even then I hope that she gets the help that she needs, because a lot of her issues seem to be based around the same kinds of things that so many women spoke out about. So, but I digress. Dave asked me first and I think 2008 or 2009, when he first moved to LA to come move to LA. And the reason being is he said that I had helped save his life after he got fired because like I hung out with him that weekend, and we watched pay per view and talked. I was on my way home from New York to New Jersey. And he's like, oh, come hang out. And I was like, Okay, I don't have anything to do. I have to work tomorrow and he sounded very sad. And you know why he gotten fired, but I knew he had wanted to leave the company for a while at that point. And he wasn't happy with what he was doing because he was working on a PCW. So I hung out nothing weird happened and everything was cool. You know, we stayed in touch. You know, we hung out a few more times between then and when we moved to California. And then when he was on the telephone coming out here in LA. Two years later, though, I was working in the Poconos, winter was coming and I was like, he's asking me if I want to move to LA and I'm like, huh? Go check out LA or deal with winter in the Pennsylvania Poconos. Check LA for the winter, right? What could possibly go wrong, right? Well, Dave was working for NWA Hollywood at the time. So when people say they don't want this to affect NWA, and that he doesn't want this to set in UI, or technically already has. Because he was working for NWA. When this happened. He was also working for Ring of Honor and working with IMPACT which back then was TNA, which is now IMPACT. Which is essentially a different company at this point. But he was working with those three companies when this happened, and I considered him a good friend. And when he moved out to California, I didn't expect some major role or anything, but he said, hey, you know, I could use you as a manager on the show. And we don't have a lot of female wrestlers out there in the local area. So it'd be cool. You could like, get thrown around by Shelly, some of the other girls who have bigger names. And I'm like, I'm down with that. He's like, I'm starting a Promotion Agency, I need help. You know, you know how to do all this social media stuff, it'd be really useful to me. And I was like, cool. He's like, but you’ll have to find another part time job. I'm like, okay. And he's like, you'll have to find a place, but you can stay with me for a while. And I was like, okay. So when I got out there, he just totally turned cold. Like as if I wasn't his friend. He never told roommate I was coming, which he had told me that that person knew. And they were like, really shocked that not only did I come there, but then I was staying for a while. So that made me feel really uncomfortable. And then like he was gone all the time. So even when he was there, like I gave him space, so he could write and do what he wanted. I went to look for jobs, you know, did my thing out there, but nothing ever materialized through him. I went to NWA with someone. And he introduced me to Adam Pierce, who told me if I wanted to get booked there, I'd have to suck his dick. And I laughed at him. And I said, Well, I guess I'm not getting booked here. And you know, what's funny is later that night, when I told Dave about the situation, because I wasn’t gonna bug him during the taping, he just didn't really have like, any response. And he's like, well, what did you say? And I said, Well, I guess I'm not getting booked here. I'm like, I can't believe that. You know, I can’t believe that Dave Marquez would have someone like that working for him. And I don't know, I never said anything to Dave Marquez about it. I didn’t feel the need to. I was like, I'm not working for this company. You know, but it was just like a kind of like, a wake-up call to like, you know, it should have been like the foreshadowing of what happened. Because, like, I slept in his room because of the small apartment. And the living room was very small. It was his roommates furniture. And I consider him a friend. I am a pro-wrestler. I slept on road trips with many times having to share hotel rooms with guys. Having to share beds with guys. Never been touched. I just share a bed with my ex-boyfriend on a road trip once and he was sad. I didn't touch him. So like that kind of extent, you know. So it's like, it was very strange when I woke up in the middle of the night with his hand down my pants, and he was touching himself. And I was like, what the fuck, because we were both clothed. And there's been, you know, kind of conversation about anything like this. And I rolled away from him. I was just like, kind of horrified that he did it. I was just hoping he wouldn't touch me again, which he didn't. But then like two or three days later, he sent me this email while I was at work. I was in my work meeting for the night, essentially telling me I had a week to get out of the house. So I was on more than a week, maybe 10 days in total, I'll have to look at the exact date of it. Might be like 9-10 days, but I was after that weekend. It was really stressful. I ended up staying with complete strangers after that. I was pretty shell-shocked because I didn't have a base in LA. And I had spent the majority of my savings just traveling around looking for jobs because it is so hard to get around and not knowing my way around and not having anyone show me wasn't really helpful for me. So I spent a lot of time learning and making mistakes, buying tickets the wrong way before I learned. But like what I really learned was, you can't always trust your friends. And this was like, I don't know at the time. What was I gonna say? If I came out then, nobody was gonna listen to me. This is 2010 you know? Had some wrestling contacts locally, but it was nothing that was really holding my interest in. And there's a lot of backstabby kind of situations out there because I wasn't in the cliques there. And I just kind of dropped wrestling. And I said, you know, this is just, I guess it's just not something that I should do right now. And I actually had intended on moving home, but then got involved in social justice work out there, and spent eight years doing that. And I started getting back into wrestling due to delucia-underground. And when I moved home to East Coast two years ago, I got involved again, and have been, you know, training on and off. Now, because of this pandemic, I'm not training at all. But I started doing shows tour booking again, I started traveling, again, helping people like with a variety of different things. Whether it be helping them set up a ring, or, you know, running the back end of the show doing production, whatever. So I thought and I've always followed people on Twitter. So when I got off work, my shoot job. And I saw this on Twitter. I was like, I have to do something. Because it was irking me that I tried to say something to someone else from NWA, who I considered a friend a couple months ago, or, like, maybe a month and a half before it had. Before I came out about it. And they kind of just blew it off and didn't listen to me. But now they heard you loud and clear. I didn't expect NWA to tell him to resign, or for him to resign. That's on him. But then his statement, like in return in response to me, it's just disgusting. Because he admits he did something to me. He's like, Oh, it's not the way she said, fuck you. You didn't have consent to touching. It's the way I say End of story. That's my response to him. And to all the fan boys talking shit about me. It's like, I don't even know what to say. This is why you don't have girlfriends. Like, this is why, you know, you don't respect women. You don't respect the time of the thing to be put in. And if you think that women should be able to trust that male friend, like we have a sad society.
Rob: Yeah, no, I was just gonna say I don't mean to interrupt. I mean, it’s a crazy story. You know, obviously, it breaks my heart, you know, just being involved in the business, I would say from a journalistic perspective, very heavily involved in the indie scene out here, the New Jersey, New York area, and everyone has just been so good to me. You know, I obviously haven't had any issues. I am promoting their business and writing reviews and interviewing their talent. So when I see this #speakingout movement, you know, I look at it and to me, I wouldn't say I'm surprised, but it definitely broke my heart. I didn't expect to see it. There's a lot of just like great kids in this business that are up and comers that I worry for. When you saw this, Liz, this hashtag come out. What was your gut reaction? Were you like, yep, I'm not surprised or like, what was your thought process?
Liz: Well, the first ones I saw were the stuff from the girls in the UK, and I had heard stuff about Progress for years. And I was like, wow, and then it just started going through. And then I started seeing stories about people here in the United States. And I started seeing stories about people I knew. You know, people I've worked with. People who Okay, best example, Joey Ryan, right? I know him from my time in California. Always super polite to me. Always treated me one of the few people who treated me like I could hang with the crowd. I was cool enough for them. You know, very nice, never weird. None of the girls ever said anything weird. Other than, you know, like talking about how he acts like a kid, right? Because he's into like Disney and baseball and like, whatever, you know. So, none of the girls ever said like, hey, he's a predator. Watch out for him. Maybe they said that because I was closer to 30. At the time, the same age Joey is. But the lot. The first time I saw him, when I came back to wrestling, my hair was no longer blonde. And I was at a maverick pro show in California. And I approached him and I said, hey, you know, how are you? Do you remember me? And he looked at me with like a look of expression like what did what did I do to this girl? And it was very strange. And I commented that to my co-host this that I do my show with a Fridays. And he wasn't my co-host this time he was just my friend. He's like, that was weird. And then Joey came up to me after the show and hugged me. Like, I recognize dealers are starting to dark hair through me. You know, you're taught we talked a little bit but then coming hearing all these stories from all of these girls. And then you know, girls in the UK. Girls in the US. Girls in Canada, girls all over the place. I'm like, Oh, this is a fucking mess. He was messy and this should never have gone on this long. You know? And that's the thing is these predators build a layer of trust with their community. Matt Riddle, same thing. Like he's like the good, bro. Like I always liked him super polite, nice guy to see what he's saying that candy is bullshit, because she has no reason to stalk him. Like she is she has her career in her own right, and I feel terrible that she’s being treated the way she's been treated by the fan boys.
Rob: Do you? Do you have just curious, do you have a relationship with Candy?
Liz: Not at all. I've met her once. And I was super drunk when I met her, and I think I offended her. That’s what happens when you go to a WWF after party in New Orleans, after WrestleMania, when you've been drinking all day long, and you get to the bar and the owner of the bar just starts feeding you tequila. You know, I mean, that's the kind of situation New Orleans comes in. I was one of my ride or die gals, we were running around causing mayhem, because that's what we decided we were going to do in New Orleans the year before when we were in Orlando. And we were having fun, you know. Harmless fun being ridiculous or was our one girls night out, we finally got to like, really ditch the guys and go do what we wanted to do. And we just went to the party and had fun, and were talking to people and we ended up in a car with Candy at the end of the night. And she just thought. I don't know, she didn't know who we were, we didn't I didn't know who I knew recognize her. But I know who she was, because she started she was like a student when I was like moving to California. So, you know, I'm older than most of these girls, I just turned 41. So I started when I was 23 going on 24. And then spent a while and then this while out and you know, came back to COVID. But it makes me feel good to see how many people are standing behind us and how many promotions are standing behind us. But it's simply not enough. You know, I feel like all of these companies need to do sexual harassment training. They need to adhere to sexual harassment, state and federal sexual harassment and anti-discrimination policies. Because if you're going to run a company and call yourself legit, you need to legitimately like, live up to the things that they asked you to. And not be a piece of shit. You know, girls seem to have our own locker rooms no more changing in the corner no more changing the bathroom. If a female tells you they feel disrespected. Like you need to fucking handle it. You need to tell your male staff that they're not going to fucking disrespect people. Like, you know, I want to show. I'm not going to name you know, I'm not going to need actually fucking I am named wrestler. I was in a show New Jersey. And this is a company where I used to the, I'm always treated really well. I gonna be the co-commissioner at this old school wrestling company when I first started out in wrestling, and I love this company and old school wrestling company. They run small shows in New Jersey, this guy named Guido, I don't know what his whole gimmick is. He says to me, he's sitting in this chair in the back and I'm like walking around talking to some of the greenhorns and some of the new people. And he was talking about Frank's son, and I was like, Oh, my God tripping me out, I haven't seen you since you were a kid. They used to come to my shows, you know, and now you're wrestling. And this guy says, he looks at me, and he's not any older than like, maybe 22-23. And he's like, here, Honey, come sit in my lap. And I was like, who the fuck do you think you're talking to? And that threw him for a loop. I was like, you better shut the fuck up and not talk to me that way not talk to any girl that way. Because the next time I hear you, you're gonna get my boot in your jaw, you understand? And everyone was like, whoa, and I'm like, No, I'm fucking serious. So they don't talk like that to people. It's not okay. But that's the thing. It's like, not enough people are willing to stand up for themselves and tell people it's not okay. Or the guys just let other guys do it to the girls and to each other. You know, and that whole culture is like really toxic. Sure, you can pull pranks on each other. They don't have to be nasty and disgusting. You don't have to do sexual things to each other. You don't have to abuse each other. You know, it's like, but the amount of sexual assaults and sexual favors that have been demanded of the women in wrestling, far outweigh anything that has happened to the guy. It's not to say that the things that have happened to some of the guys haven't been terrible on themselves. It just happens way more frequently. It happens, I think almost all of us have a story to tell, even if people don't tell their story because they're afraid too.
Rob: Wow, you touched on it perfectly. You know, you say like obviously and I think we're seeing that just statistically you know, it is the women Like, I don't know why people think that they're in a position of power. Or I always say I think ego is a huge part of the problem for these people who, Oh, like I was on this one show once in this capacity. Now you have to, and now I'm the king or whatever. But you know, you do see stories like obviously Keith Lee saying he was drugged and well, that hotel room — doesn't know what happened. I mean, that's, that's also crazy to me. But how much do you I mean, this is just like my kind of thought, but what do you think these people's mindset are at? Like, how much of ego goes into this? And you know, how much is using their power going into all this terrible behavior.
Liz: It's a cross between all it's like ego, power and society saying that it's okay for them to do it. You know, because society has allowed this dynamic over and over and over and over again. Think about like, Nicole Smith, like, she was what, like, 24-25, when she started dating that billionaire dude. She was married to him by the time she was like, 27, I think she was dead by the time she was 30. You know, and it's like, everybody celebrated this. I can't remember the dude's name. Everybody likes celebrating him. There's like all he's awesome for like, marrying this hot chick, she's a playboy model. And then everyone was Anna Nicole is like, Oh, she's piece of shit. She just married him for money. You know. And it's like, that dynamic has always been like… I still see guys who are like my age, she think girls that are young enough to be our kids. And it's gross. And it's, that's the power dynamic, you know, and then it's the power dynamic, when somebody is your trainer, or your boss, or has a position of higher authority, like championships or been around. Or even perceived authority that doesn't even really exist. You know, because that's a big thing in wrestling with people who give you the idea that they're an authority, but nobody knows really, who the fuck they are. You know, when I went through some of these stories, I had to Google the people and see who they were. And then I saw that these are people who gave themselves as quote unquote, trainers never even left their home fucking territory.
Rob: I did want to say this real quick, you know, we did talk to talk about having like that ego, or that power trip, or whatever it is, treat people this way. Like we've, we, you know, we haven't really been like naming names. But you know, I think it gets to a point. I mean, #SpeakingOut, that's what we're doing here. You mentioned Matt Riddle earlier. You know, Marissa you obviously, you know, did your homework on that, you know, I'm more of the wrestling and of the things Marissa more of the psychology and all that kind of stuff going into it. It’s why we’re the ultimate tag team right here.
Liz: Wrestling is psychology.
Rob: Yeah, there you go. Exactly. Yep, there it is, right. But we use named like Matt riddle, now, like, professionally, like I used to, I'm not gonna do a shameless promo here, because it's not the place for it. But I would review his matches, when he's coming up in NXT. I wasn't very high on him. And recently, his performance and matches and gimmick or persona has grown and grown on me. And very, very good job very over, as we say, in the business with the fans and stuff like that. But then this whole, this whole thing comes out. And, you know, you see that he said, she said and all that, and Marissa, I'll tag in for this in a minute. But you know, we always say like, I think the percentage was what less than 4% of these accusations are statistically false. But we see him released a video a couple days ago. And I want to ask you about this, Liz, if you didn't see the video, where he admits to cheating on his wife, but denies the claims for candy. And I don't want to laugh. But, you know, to me, for personal reasons that the fact that he admitted to cheating on his wife is one thing, you know, yes, I know, you're on the road and all that stuff. But you know, that's not okay.
Liz: And I think she's at home with your kids.
Rob: Yeah, with this kid, right. And, like, I think one of my friends on Twitter had tweeted out, he admits to having low moral fiber but not having low moral fiber. It was something like that. But
Marissa: It was a Matt Riddle denies having a low moral fiber by admitting he has a low moral fiber. Yeah, weird flex or something like that.
Liz: Yeah, it was like that's the same thing Joey Ryan did, they all have been weird, like not really taking any kind of like thing. I didn't really do it, but I'm still a creeper. I need help. But not all of them said they need help, they all fucking need help. They all need to be removed from any kind of position of power. They all need to be out of the wrestling business and away from women. And this needs to follow them throughout their careers. And so they really do show that they have done some sort of restorative justice to better themselves and to stop blaming victims.
Marissa: The problem is that they know that their fan boys, as you called them earlier, are never going to hold them accountable and they're always going to have their backs because they're their fan boys. Right? So they have no, qualms. There's no responsibility or accountability there. And it's a he said, she said situation always. So they have no fear of getting in trouble. And that's, like you said, I think that's what needs to change. There needs to be an element of accountability. And there needs to be that element of repercussions for their actions. Or else it's just gonna be like a continuation and people are gonna continue to be unsafe in wrestling.
Liz: Well, if one of the people who came out about their ex-boyfriend, you know, I spoke to a Booker who is looking at her ex-boyfriend who I consider a friend. And his response to me was, what am I supposed to do, not book him? Yeah. Exactly what you're supposed to do not be like, sorry, you'd like what you did to that girl is fucked up.
Marissa: Right. I mean, look what's happening in the in Hollywood, right? I mean, all of the underground stuff aside, the face value things like when Matt Lauer was accused and Kevin Spacey was accused, like all these people, the accusations came out, and they were cancelled. Immediately, Matt Lauer fired on the spot, Kevin Spacey written out of House of Cards on the spot. Like that's what needs to be done.
Liz: That’s the problem. Most people are barely working for any big budget. Anyone? You know, I mean, yeah, some people make more money than others match and definitely been fired. WWE has made some really poor choices in the people that they choose to keep and the people who they choose to fire, I'll tell you that.
Rob: Can I can ask you a question Liz? Just curious, you’re read on this. You know, I, I feel like I'm a very like you're on one side of the line or you're on the other like, I'm never a stand on the line kind of person. Like that's how I am like you either do or not, as Yoda says. Very wise Yoda. But basically, you have companies like AEW, who would address the situation in a certain way. Whereas again, like other big companies, like as you had just mentioned WWE, didn't really do anything. And let's be real in terms of their employees’ health right now. That's a whole other situation. So yeah, let's not go down that road. But we see companies handling things very, very differently. Let's take because we are naming names today. Pick a situation like Sammy Guevara, if you're familiar with what happened with him and made about Sasha Banks. How do you feel you know, young guy and I'm not excusing anything young guy made these comments earlier? I guess he did — Publicly apologize.
Liz: Yeah, good. Yeah. From what I know of him. I think he did it trying to be hip and cool. And like he wanted to boys and see something where you see him, you know, didn't realize how fucked up it was in the moment, but it's no excuse for what he said. I mean, he's a kid, essentially. I think he's a phenomenal wrestler. I hope this really made a mark on him. And, you know, it's like Sasha Banks. I don't know her personally. She started right around the time that I was moving out of the Northeast. She just started wrestling regularly. You do know, her husband now? Oh, yeah. This is actually videos of neologisms from back in the day.
Rob: He does me know, he's a big gamer. And he does the attire.
Liz: Yeah, yeah. He's just amazing costumes. He's also a very talented wrestler. And he basically said he stopped wrestling for them.
Rob: Oh, really didn't know though. Okay.
Liz: Very talented, very talented. But I thought the way she handled it was very classy. I think that, you know, the way that he did what was right, he apologized. You know, they say they're sending him for sensitivity training. I think everybody needs to be sent for some sensitivity training. I think everybody needs to be sent for some sexual harassment training. You know, it's like, I don't even think that most people know what sexual harassment is.
Marissa: Isn’t that sad? In a situation where your bodies are your weapons and your bodies are your biggest assets. Right? People don't even know how to respect each other's bodies and each other's spaces. Like I find that so disgusting
Liz: Yeah. It is. We have to trust our lives in other people's hands, and we can't even trust them.
Rob: That's crazy. You say, Liz that you feel that it's not going to change. And I'm not arguing that point at all. I have seen some local promotions that are able to run right now like doing like driving shows and whatnot right now — social distancing and all that. That has hired console and have brought in speakers before the shows to speak with the talent, your thoughts on that?
Liz: Um, I don't know. I think it's a step in the right direction, but they all need to come up with serious business policies on how they're going to move forward going forward. Recruitment of talent, like talent, dating talent, bosses, dating talent, like, there needs to be guidelines, and there needs to be stuff that's talked about, like, for real. Cuz it's like, otherwise, you're just gonna have the same cycle perpetuated again and again and again, indefinitely. And that's what, you know, they can say and do for a short period of time. But if that doesn't keep up, what where did we go with it? And as long as these guys are still getting booked, that’s the problem.
Marissa: I agree with that.
Rob: We talked about, you mentioned separate locker rooms earlier, which I think is a huge part of the solution. Not that it's going to solve everything, but it's a huge step in the right direction. A lot of these stories you see involved the airport, pickups, you know, I've been to a lot of conventions, where a lot of my indie friends like would have to go pick up a major talent. And yeah, I hear you hear a lot of Oh, really. So your kind of thoughts on that experience as it was and how it may be should change moving forward?
Liz: Um, well, I guess it depends on who you're sending the person you to pick up and how comfortable, if they already have a relationship with that person. But even then, you never, you never know. I mean, I picked up people because I didn't want greenhorns doing it. And I wanted to make sure they got where they needed to go on time. So when I had my own car, I picked up people from the airport on a fairly regular basis, never had any problem, pick the people from the train station. But I also road trip with a lot of people for years. So it was like, when you're in wrestling, besides just picking people up, like you're literally in a car with people, sometimes, for five hours, one way to hang out for two or three hours, work for 10 minutes, you drive back five hours in a car with people. And it's not like you're in a car, when you're doing road trips like that you're not one person, usually you're in a car, it's like three or four or five. So like these stories and the things when people talk about things in buses, like what Candy talks about, or what Lizzie Valentine talked about, with like almost being left. In Mexico, she was afraid to speak out and she was almost left on the side of the road. Because like she said, she was arguing with a male wrestler who's being aggressive with her. You know, and it's like, and he was out in pairs, you know, where he was, you know, screaming at her in the car, and they wanted to leave her in the desert. You know, in this kind of shit, we face, it’s the kind of shit if you speak out, it's like what's gonna happen? You're gonna get thrown out in the middle of nowhere on the highway? You're gonna be left in a foreign country? There's so many different fucking things that could happen when you're on these trips. You know, and you have to be able to trust the people you're with. So it's like, it's where the whole culture needs to change. It's like women shouldn’t go pick up people they don't know or don't feel comfortable with. The promoters needs to not run shows if they can't afford them. The promoter is not willing to not book women if they can't afford to get them separate at this point. I'm not saying don't book women, I'm saying come up with sponsorship money, guys. Like, if you want me to consult and make you a sponsor deck, I'll do one for you. But it ain't gonna be free. You know. That’s the funny thing is like when people tell me, oh, I'm not gonna book you as this. Well, you you're in Idaho, and you are never going to book me anyway. Because my fee just to show up as $100 and you'd have to fly me out and put me in a hotel and feed me and drive me around and pay me. And I don't think that's happening. I think I'm realistic about this stuff. Like a lot of these indie promoters think all talent should work for $25 still. And some of these people who are getting assaulted are getting assaulted at chosen companies that they're paying to be there. They're not getting paid they're paying to be assaulted. They're paying to be used. They're paying to you know become someones use for the time being, it's gross.
Rob: That's terrible hotdog and a handshake as they say.
Liz: But that's how it looks like Johnny Rob used to take me its okay.
Rob: I like I've been playing in bands in Asbury Park my whole life. I know that I know that story. But uh, but I digress. Um, I did want to ask you this, Liz. I on my platform, I have so many indie wrestlers come on. I like to help them. I like to help them make names for themselves. Put them over if you will. And it's great and I have great relationships with them. They helped me with my podcast. They wear my T-shirt. It's awesome. I've had such a positive, reception. A positive experience with all these indie companies I have been able to, you know, go in the door before the again from a journalistic perspective, not being in the business, but be in the doors before the doors open. And I learned the respect, you know, the shake everyone's hand. And to me, that's what went on behind the scenes. It was respectful. Everyone was a brother, everyone was a sister. And I thought it was really cool. I saw people running the ropes. And I'm like, this is really cool. So I see this stuff now. And it breaks my heart. It makes me think like, Oh, is this like, not what it is? What’s your gauge? Is it? I mean, I guess what's the scale here? Is it there's just like a lot of scumbags? Or there's a lot of really good people like where's your head at?
Liz: I don't know anymore. I mean to cross between both. If you look at my interest, my savage page, I have nearly 5000 friends and no more than half of those people in person. Like I know a lot, a lot. A lot of people it's like I go to wrestlecon and like especially the one that was up here going to events like WrestleCon, going and was like seeing my family, you know, going to show here, even in California before I left. No, I met new people, I made new friends. But I have a lot of old friends and I've been getting in contact with people. There's a lot of people I really love, I really trust, and I don't want to feel that way about my friends. I don't want to have to feel like I can't to have one of my friends staying in a place where I am, especially when I'm going back out on the road again and traveling with people. You know, bringing greenhorns on the road with me. Like you say, like you like helping, bringing young people up. So do I, you know, I that's one of the things as a manager, I've always dragged along talent with me when I get bookings. I build talent up at shows, I seek out those champions that might not be on someone's, radar as a potential champion. And I represented a lot of the underdogs, you know, and it's like, I have a lot of really awesome friends in wrestling. I know so many cool people. A lot of my friends are on TV right now. It makes me really happy for them. But it's like, at the same time, it's like, we all need to work together to stop the bad people from ruining what we have, and perpetuating the stuff that made it bad to begin with, because I think that we could take it back and make it into something that could be better, and could be more fun. And could be, you know, the fans could stay behind because it's like a lot of people are super disgusted with wrestling right now. And it's not the same watching with no fans are the kind of thing that will make people walk away.
Rob: Very well said. And last question for me over here, Liz, I do appreciate your, your time and you more importantly, being able to open up. I know it's very hard and crazy. But you know, 2020 Ladies and gentlemen, like I keep saying. I want to ask you this, as I said very big on a lot of the younger talent that are coming up and are seemingly doing well. A lot of them do seem to have good heads on their shoulders. What can people do to just make this better for this next generation?
Liz: Listen, watch, if you know someone's a bad person, call them out. You know, it's time to put an end into people's reign is terror. I mean, there's plenty of guys out there who've gone through girl after girl after girl. There's guys who've gone through guy after guy. But it's gotten to the point where people need to really speak up against this, especially people in power. The people who've done things wrong need to admit to what they've done. And they need to not only reflect on themselves, but they really need to seek some sort of guidance through I don't know if counseling or spiritual or whatever it might be. Because you know what, I'll be real with you. I've been part of anarchist groups who call for restorative justice from within when there's been sexual offenses against members of the group for many members of the group and there was no fluff and accountability. I mean, honestly, like the only accountability that even close thing that accountability or retribution that happened was a little bit of street justice when one of the one of the smaller woman went after the sex offender and a crowd of people and basically socked him in the face about 16 times until he ran into group of cops. But um, you know, it's like. Dudes need to hold their friends accountable because you think that us as women if you respect us and you say you care about us, hold the other guys accountable. Don't let them tell stories like this. If you hear them talking, be like to shame them for it be like what the fuck dude? Like, don't let people be pieces of trash or treat other people like trash. It's as simple as that. You know?
Marissa: Agreed. I feel like once everyone starts speaking out and calling people out, it'll change the game for the people who are being affected. You know, like the people who, right, exactly the people who have been impacted or have been assaulted, are probably afraid for their careers and afraid for their safety and retaliation, because look what happened to you and Candy. I mean, you spoke out and then you have all of these people all over the internet, just harassing and bashing and demeaning. I mean, it's unsafe, and it's scary for people. But I think you're right. Go ahead. Sorry.
Liz: It's so bad. They're gonna have to take down Reddit threads because they've gotten violent about us. Yeah, I haven't seen the threads. But somebody was like reading to me. And then when I got a chance to get off work and look for the Reddit threads myself, I couldn't find them. And the one that I did find it, that content has been deleted. You know, it was like the ghost of it. Yeah, it was crazy. I was like, okay. But he was reading off the comments to me, and I was like, this is like, people were saying that I deserve to be raped. People were saying that I deserve to get beaten up. That I'm going to pay for what I did. Good thing I know how to defend myself, I don’t know what else to say. But we don't deserve this. Like none of us deserve this. And if you're idolizing these guys, like you really got to look at yourself and be like, what the fuck is wrong with me?
Marissa: It's a very, very big pill to swallow.
Liz: It's rough. The whole industry, it has turned been turned inside out. But you know what, I have to give it to the youth for doing it. Because it's the time for it to happen. And it's gone on for too long. Because when I started, there is no way that shit would have flown. You know, you look at people like Angela Amorosa. She's the best, best person to like, talk about. She was one of the ECW girls who never really was like, used during much because she was underage. But she has some crazy stories which everyone, you know, says aren't true and don't want to believe. Because they're their beloved ECW heroes. But honestly, I believe her. You know, I believe that at least like a good percentage of what you're talking about happened and knowing what happened to some other girls in the industry before me, which I'm not at liberty to discuss those stories. But those stories are out there and hearing some of this stuff scared me. Like, literally to the point and like I heard about a story that happened at a wrestling school. And I was like, should I even come here and sat down with the owner and was like, you know, I heard this happen, and this was fucked up and they're like, I assure you, that will happen again and nothing has happened like that Since then. It was at a private event. And, you know, they got the steel bombed. And if you get a girl so trashed, you can't consent, you still don't have consent.
Marissa: Right? If you're unconscious, or a lack of a lack of anything is not consent. If you're asleep you can't consent. If you're drunk, you can't consent. I mean, these you think that they're basic, common sense. But it's used so often as like a tool. You know, if we get this person bombed, they can't say no, so technically, it's a yes. I mean, that's not true. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Liz: Yep. And just because somebody has consented in the past doesn't mean you always have their consent.
Marissa: 100% Absolutely.
Liz: You know, even if you're in a relationship with them, you know, and that that's intimate partner violence has been a huge part of this whole movement, because read a good third of the stories are people who were involved with, you know, other wrestlers or their trainers, or you know, someone who was in or around the industry. And that’s fucked up. And these are like, not like relationships that were like two months long. And some of these relationships, these people have kids.
Rob: It's crazy. I wanted to end it on like some sort of a hopeful or positive kind of note..
Liz: Hopeful note, you know, these companies are finally starting to listen to the women. They're finally starting to take some of this stuff seriously. And maybe they'll start treating your wrestling business like it's an actual business.
Rob: Mic Drop. Yeah, not wrong.
Liz: Thank you so much for having me
Rob: Oh, anytime for reaching out. And, you know, hopefully, you still have your passion for the business and continued success moving forward.
Liz: Thank you.
Rob: All right, stay safe. We're out.
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today, I know that I've talked about them before on previous podcast episodes. And I'm really, really excited to invite Retired Army Major General Robert D. Shadley, author of, The Game: Unraveling a Military Sex Scandal. He did two tours in Iraq and Vietnam, over 33 years of active duty service, followed by 10 years working with the government as a contractor with the SHARP program. And his beautiful champion wife, Camilla Vance Shadley, who's also a nurse and daughter of Cyrus Vance, the former Secretary of State and Secretary of the Army. She's a self proclaimed gray-haired lady who's pissed off that this stuff is still happening. Welcome, guys. Thank you so much for being here today.
Camilla: Good morning.
Bob: Good morning.
Marissa: Awesome. So, Camilla, I know that you and I were talking about a little bit about your story and what happened to you. Do you mind sharing with us what you went through?
Camilla: No, I'd be delighted to. My story, for me is important because of what it suggests are the issues still going on in the military. So I was married to my late husband, Brigadier General William R. Holmes, and we were assigned down at Fort Belvoir, at the Pentagon. And we had a request for a huge cocktail party at the CG’s office at Fort Belvoir, which is about three doors down from us. At which would be attending all his staff, wives included, as well as the very key government contacts and businessmen going to the A-USA meeting that following Monday. So we went over and I went over with my twin sister, who, ironically was the only time she was on the base. It was a cocktail party on a lovely Sunday afternoon. And so we all just walked up the street. What was terrifying, as it began to unfold, was that he was an individual who was on his own home ground, and seemed to be very comfortable. Clearly, as I look back, had a very practiced behavior. Was confident that he could get away with it. And this is the four star for the Army Materiel Command, Leon Solomon. So what he did was, we walked in, and as was my nature at the time, General Solomon is a big guy. And I didn't hug many people. But he was huggable. And I didn't see him that often. So I went up and went in to give him a hug. And as I did, in the middle of a very crowded room in the center of the house, with everybody milling around us, I suddenly realized that his hands were on my breasts. I look into his face, and his face hasn't changed at all, there is no sign of discomfort. There's no sign of surprise. This guy knew how to look like nothing was happening. So if anybody happened to turn around, and look, they would have no idea what occurred. I was stunned. And all I can think of is what just happened, and how did I get here, and realized that I didn't know. But I also realize that he didn't seem to be worried about this, which made me even more scared. So I sort of backed out of where his hands were, and left to go find my husband to tell him I had just been assaulted by his boss. What made it even more upsetting to me is that in addition to feeling he was totally comfortable to do that, at this setting on the base, he goes and finds my identical twin sister, introduces himself to my twin sister, and proceeds to tell her, “Oh, you're just like your twin sister, only your boobs are bigger." Now, I got to tell you, there's something wonderful about an arrogant son of a bitch who thinks that he can do this and then confirm the assault by going to find the twin sister and introduce himself in order to harass her. So that's what occurred at the time. I did not know he did this to her. And when I found her about 20 minutes later, after I'd gone to find my husband. She was incredibly upset, came over and told me her story at which point I knew that it had not been a mistake. I have not done anything to create the problem. He was a calculated predator. He did exactly what he wanted to do. And then to be more audacious, he went and found my twin sister and did similar behaviors. What I wished had happened is that I hadn't frozen but at the time, I was absolutely stunned. Now, I would say that if that happens to you, you get violent. You kick him in the balls, slug him in the face alert officers or people around you the behavior happened immediately. Because part of the issue is, well, you didn't seem as if there was a problem. This time, if it happened, I would have dropped him to his knees. And then I would have explained exactly what happened to him. At the time, this was 1994, Clinton was president. Sexual assault and abuse and the White House wasn't the problem. So there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell that I was going to get anybody that I could report to. And the only thing that was clear to me is it would totally destroy my husband's career, which was a hard one and strong career. And I wasn't willing to do that. So I begged my husband not to do anything or say anything, and that I would handle it. What was lucky for me, so we went 20 years. I didn't say anything we moved on with our lives. What I do know is that absolutely ate my late husband up mentally. To feel that he was incapable of protecting me. That there was nothing he could do. And the betrayal of trust from his immediate superior to do that to him was something that literally ate him alive. And he had incredible rage for the next 20 years, because there was nothing that was possible at that point in the history of the army to protect us. So now 20 years later, sadly, my late husband died. And I have about to remarry again, and this is with Bob, this was in 2018. And my sister came up to Meet Bob. And Bob had the following story.
Bob: So Gracie, Camilla's twin sister, and I meet, and I say, it's so good to see you, again. Only this appears to be much nicer terms. And she said, What do you mean? I said, Well, the first time I met you was at a cocktail party, at General Solomon's quarters for A-USA. I thought you were Camilla, since you're identical. I walked up and started to give you a big hug. You pushed me away and said, “What the hell do you want?” and stormed away. I later found Camilla and she confirmed that yes, her twin sister was here. So following that discussion, we went back and reconstructed what had happened to Camilla and Grace at Solomon's house, Joe Solomon's house, that Sunday afternoon. And as a result of our conversation, Camilla and grace, were able to put together dates, times, places and individuals, the details of what happened. And from there, Camilla then, knowing the army system of reporting sexual misconduct claims, through the Sexual Harassment and Assault Response and Prevention program (SHARP) program, I referred Camilla to a victim advocate at Fort Bragg, who then took Camilla’s story and the following occurred.
Camila: So we were very lucky. We had a very strong victim advocate. We had to get a private lawyer because the lawyer who was supposed to be signed to us didn't call back for over two weeks, and I said screw that are moving ahead. So we were with an outstanding lawyer, Sara Sykes, who now is actually working with the Safe Sport, which is the Olympic Sexual Assault Program. And to summarize quickly, we got General Solomon a reprimand for his career move. But what occurred as we went through the process was to me a clear indication of the lack of the military's real interest in dealing with and helping victims. So I followed the process. And in my case, because of my father, being Secretary of Army, Deputy Secretary of Army, and Secretary of State, I knew that the moment I filed my complaint, there would be an interest. And sure enough, that complaint went all the way to the Chief of Staff of the Army, the moment I filed the complaint out of Fort Bragg. And they tracked that complaint the entire time. So this is what occurred. So I filed with the C-ID. What became clear almost immediately is that they had no other witnesses other than myself and Bob, who was there to verify our behavior changed. And they took no interest in doing an investigation of the General’s career, to see if there might be other victims who, like me, had been shut down, because at the time, there was nothing that could be done. So they took longer to give me a copy of my file than they did to investigate and technically make a decision. Which I thought was stunning since it didn't seem to me it took a genius to figure out what happened. Then what occurred is they kept sending me what I would describe is aggressive, totally inappropriate missives to me, every time I asked for where is my file on this? Because I wanted a copy of it in order to determine that I would press on if the Army didn't do anything. And each letter from my point of view, was aggressive, accusatory, blaming the victim, challenging me that I was trying to go outside the system. And if I did, so that I would fail to be able to get any kind of service. And basically, totally controlling the process and the information. The only difference was, every time they sent me a missive, I sent one back, so that there was a record of just how inappropriate the conversations were. By this time, it was four months after I had filed my complaint, they told me that was really speedy, I said, I thought that was a joke. The process was not getting him anywhere. And I decided, and I'd warn them in writing, that I wasn't going to slow down on this, and that I would do everything within my needs to push this issue forward. Because if they were doing this to me, based on my family's involvement in the military, I could only imagine what it was going to be like for anybody who was in the military, was beholden to the military for career and money. And the answer was, they were going to be screwed. So the next thing we decided to do is we then challenge the army and said that we want to see the Secretary of the Army and I sent CC's of the copy all the way to the Secretary of Defense. And the Army sent me back a letter saying, “Hey, you know, if you really want to see Secretary of the Army that I can’t guarantee you when if ever, you're going to get this reviewed.” I thought, well, that's interesting. That's basically putting a lot of pressure on me to actually want an answer. So we thought, all right, we won't want to see the Secretary of the Army. But now you've said you can go faster. And I thought, here you go, this kind of, you know, abuse of power. So we had to press again. And this time, I decided I was tired of this. And so I was lucky enough to have access to Senator Gillibrand from New York, who we asked if she would take the case on proving to her at that point that the Army had done absolutely nothing. They hadn't made a decision. They were totally unwilling, it appeared, to do anything to take Solomon to task, and that their explanation for, “The investigation,” was a joke. Senator Gillibrand talked to them, and suddenly the Army was going to have to explain to Senator Gillibrand, why they had done nothing. And suddenly on that date, we actually see because we tracked it back, that the decision was made that Solomon would in fact, be reprimanded. So there is absolute proof that they were willing to basically roll me down the road for as much time as they could, do nothing, and hope I went away. They miscalculated, because as I've now described myself, is I'm a gray haired lady and on pissed. So that's where it started. So what became clear to me was that the army had a total strategy about how to deal with victims.
First of all, it was army was going to protect its predators, in this case, Solomon and a four star. Secondly, they were going to use every part of the process, which was all in writing, to be abusive, to be punitive, to be controlling, and to manipulate. And the third was, is that the army leadership was clearly not to be trusted. And it was a betrayal of trust. That I had been told to follow the system that justice would be done, and the answer was bullshit. Couldn't have been further from the truth. So what became clear is that Bob, who is the only General Officer in the last 25 years, who's actually initiated a command wide worldwide investigation, and then prosecution of sexual assault, which occurred in the Aberdeen Proving Grounds in 1996, was already a long term advocate for these issues. And when I said that I wasn't going to be silent. I said, I wasn't going to feel helpless. I wasn't going to be abused by a group of individuals who clearly had no interest in taking care of their soldiers, and that I felt that we needed to move forward. And when Amy Franck came to us with the value of the Never Alone Soldier, it was clear to us and our reviewing this, that as long as the army had a pattern of the last 25 years of controlling the information, the soldier, the process, and the outcome they had it made. It was perfect. You just spun around like a hamster on their wheel, and you never got out of it. And it worked just fine for them. But now, after 25 years, there are over half a million victims. And the truth is that the victims really have power, because it's the victims who own their stories and own the data. And the Army no longer can control that. And Never Alone Soldier, from my point of view, was of incredible value to us. Because it's a Grassroots Group of victims advocates, and those involved in the fight, who can now take control back that this is their story, and also has the experience to explain exactly how that system is so corrupt internally. So the value of the book, from my point of view, is that The Game at the time written by Bob not only specifically goes through the process that the Army did to try to destroy him. But it's the identical process that they're still using today. Identical. And the other issue that's important is Bob documents in his book, that when the review was done and what happened at Aberdeen, although the senior people have been telling him all the time, you did a great job, keep going right behind you. That was bullshit. And when it actually got to Togo D. West, the Secretary of the Army, he has documented proof that he told the IG, that the report that was to be written was to be changed. And Bob was to be blamed, because the last thing the Army wanted to do was to say that this was an Army-wide problem. And that if they just shut it down with Bob, then it was just his fault. And that's how it ended for the Army. We've contained it. We've basically strung up as to star we're happy Congress is happy because they were pissed off that people were saying things were bad. And to this day, the Army's report has in fact been doctored. So Bob, what do you see now?
Bob: Sadly, my beautiful bride is just one of 500,000 young men and women who have been victims of some form of sexual misconduct. Since we at Aberdeen uncovered this problem in 1996 and brought it to the attention of the army senior leadership. In the past few days, we've heard horrific stories coming out of the 416th Theater Engineering Command, a part of Lieutenant General Charles D. Lucky's Command as the Chief of the US Army Reserve. Followed by the tragic murder of Vanessa Guillen at Fort Hood. Every day, we see more and more of the continued sexual abuse, sexual misconduct by soldiers and their leaders within the primarily Army and the other services. What we see today is we have a program in the Army called the SHARP — Sexual Harassment Assault and Response Prevention program. We have many dedicated young men and women, senior men and women who are serving as SHARP Program Manager, Sexual Assault Response Coordinators, Victims and Special Victims Councils, that are working very hard to get justice for our victims. Many of them would prefer to be called survivors. And unfortunately, not all of the victims survive. Unfortunately, all of our SHARP professionals are not in commands where they have full command support. And part of the problem is that the military has allowed Commanders to pick and choose what parts of the SHARP program they want to enforce. And it's inconsistent throughout the Army. Camilla mentioned Aberdeen Proving Ground. The parallels with Aberdeen are today beyond the serving because it's exactly the same field crisis management plan that the Army used in 1996. The first steps were to protect the senior leaders, the three and four stars. They looked at and saying that an instance that And the press is isolated. And only to that command, we only focus on mid and lower grade leadership failures. The assumption that the victims are at fault is the 3rd Key thing. And it's interesting to know when it comes to sexual misconduct, sexual assault, rape — It's the only felony, where the victim is called the accuser. Just read the press, the press, the accuser said. And there's constant feeling that there's no change recording and military system And finally, the senior leaders are not involved in any way. I've been an adjunct instructor at the Army SHARP Academy since 2013. Speaking at over 48 classes. At a break in one of the classes, three Senior Non Commissioned Officers (NCOs) in our Army asked me if they could talk to me. And they said, Sir, we know you talk to people in high places. Could you please pass on that perception in the ranks is that Senior Leaders, Officers and NCO’s get off. Lower ranking officers and NCO’s get hammered. Persons of color get hammered. Whites get off. And I said, What do you mean by hammered? And they pointed to the bars on the window, the old prison Leavenworth and said, if you go to jail, you got hammered. So on the 22nd of July 2015, I had an office call with Lieutenant General McConville, who's now the Chief of Staff of the Army and told him that. And I said, this is the concern of your soldiers. And he just blew me off said, No, that can't be true. And so I'm banging my head against the wall. As a result of situations digging back into the 2015 and before, soldiers quickly understand that there are about four lessons that they have learned by getting involved in reporting sexual misconduct.
Soldiers don't trust their leaders, and the chain of command. There's little to no command honesty. One speaks up at one's own risk. And Amy Frank is a tremendous example of that. Amy has been fighting for victims for months and years. And she gets blamed. And retaliation works, as she pointed out. As Camilla pointed out, we were the last command to do an in-depth investigation, worldwide of all the potential victims in a command. And we were responsible 52,000 soldiers. The Army lesson learned at the senior levels from Aberdeen — 20 some years ago — was that you don't want to do in depth investigations, because you don't want to find out how bad it is. In my case at Aberdeen, every training base in the Army had a problem. The Army could not admit that because the four star in charge of Training Command would have had to been relieved, not only was it going on in the Training Command, it was going on throughout the operational force. So that would have meant it commanding general of Forces Command, another four star would have had to been relieved . If you relieved to four star, subordinate commanders and whose next? The Chief of Staff of the Army would have had to been relieved. So the mantra of the military is these are isolated incident. The Senior Leaders aren't involved. Now, the emphasis that Camilla pointed out with regard to senior leaders, they are the senior leaders in the military, in my humble opinion, are more interested in making the problem go away than they are solving the problem.
Marissa: Absolutely. I 100% agree with that.
Camilla: And I think the thing that's interesting is to take a little closer look at the case that Amy Frank is involved in with Illinois.
Marissa: Do you mind expanding on that a little bit.
Bob: Amy is a Victim's Advocate in the 416th Theatre Engineering Command, headquartered in Darien, Illinois, and she uncovered consistent lack of care for survivors. And a general total lack of command support and taking care of soldiers. She wrote, to not only the Commanding General of the United States Army Reserve Command, Lieutenant General Charles D. Luckey, but she also wrote to General James McConville, the Chief of Staff of the Army, and also notified the Secretary of the Army back in 2019. Very little action was taken. No action, in fact, until after the 1st of this year. Now, they have they, the Army appointed investigating officer of three star general out of the Pentagon, the charge of the installation command. And so far 18 Field Grade Officers and Generals have had adverse findings documented against them. So what Amy uncovered within the 416th, and knowing her sources around the Army, this is not unique to just the 416th Theater Engineering Command in the US Army Reserve, it is appears to be rampant within the whole US Army Reserve Command, whose commander, Lieutenant General Luckey changed command on 30 June, 2020, and I'm not sure exactly when he retires. But it looks like he's going to leave the Army as a three star general. And as far as I can tell, reading the documents, he put out very little guidance to his command from the period in 2017, until just a couple months ago. So I think that this goes back to the original comments by the three and NCO’s. Senior leaders get off until the Army gets serious, and starts holding some three and four star Generals and senior presidential appointees liable for poor leadership, we're not going to get anywhere.
Camilla: But I think one of the things that becomes really clear is that there is a complete disconnect between the Army's pitch of leader accountability in zero tolerance. And I guess what I would say is, yeah, I understand what zero tolerance is. Zero tolerance is that three stars and four stars get protected at all costs. Two, that collateral damage is totally acceptable. And three, that we're really not interested. I don't know any job anybody's ever had, that allows for 25 years to do this bad a job systemically for this long and still get paid, much less have a job. And yet we as a country accept it, Congress doesn't seem to have that much of a problem until recently. And I think therefore, the importance of people like Never Alone Soldiers really have to be a driving force. Now, the thing that makes me mad, is I do not know why it is the responsibility of the victims, to be the ones to insist on change.
Marissa: I agree the victim shouldn't be the ones fighting the system. The system should be fighting for the victims. I mean, what good is our military if they're hurting each other? You know? If part of our military is being abused and assaulted by other parts, what is the benefit of enlisting? What's the benefit of fighting for our country because you're fighting for our safety, but we're not even fighting to keep you safe. It doesn't make any sense to me.
Bob: Marissa, there had been more victims of sexual misconduct in the Military since World War Two than there have been in combat.
Marissa: Wow.
Bob: That's a damning indictment of the leadership and lack thereof. And there are a lot of reasons Camilla, and I have written some blogs. your listeners may want to go to our website, www.ShadleyEditions.com , And look under blogs. We have blogged several interesting, we think…
Camilla: We say, it's fascinating.
Bob: People often say, “Well, what can we do to change this?” Okay, so you've got the problem. Here's five things that Camilla and I think that the United States Military to do tonight.
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- The prevention of sexual harassment and sexual assault should be seen as a critical force protection issue. Now, the problem we have in my humble opinion, the commander say, “Oh, I'm a Warfighter. I focus on war-fighting and is prevention of sexual assault, a G1, personnel touchy feely issue.” Well, if you look at the role of the commander, if the commander gets a mission, he or she visualizes, describes and directs what they want done. And the things they direct — The number six item, is force protection. This is a force protection, ready to go issue, and it relates to national offense. I've made that known to many people. So this is not an issue that involves women's rights, LGBTQ rights. It is important to the national defense that all of our soldiers feel safe, and they have positive command leadership.
- We ought to hold our senior leaders accountable. And this goes all the way up to the Chief of Staff of the Army.
- I think we ought to routinely publish a list in open source media of leaders punish for sexual harassment, or assault crimes. This can be either judicial, non judicial, or administrative.
Camilla: And could I just add to that. So for example, General Leon Solomon, in my case, is still sitting on honorary boards, which my husband was also honored enough to be asked to, on the Ordinance Core. Why is it that when I've asked them to review his standing with these honorary groups, which is the Hall of Fame for Ordinance, and there's another one. What is it, Bob?
Bob: The Hall of Fame for the Army Material Command.
Camilla: And when I asked that, their suggestion was, oh, gosh, well, we'd love to do that. But we have to write a REG and I thought, Okay, this is pretty much idiot proof. Write two paragraphs. Nope. That took six months. Finally, this is what actually happened. The BG for the audience come in, came back and basically said, okay, Bob, well, you're on the selection board. And this is how we're going to resolve this. Now, you've been thrown off. Thanks for talking to us.
Marissa: That's disgusting. So he was dismissed because you spoke up.
Bob: Right. I said at our next board meeting, I want to consider expelling General Solomon, from the Hall of Fame. Okay, so for that I was asked not to come back.
Camilla: And my point of view is, my husband suffered from this betrayal from his direct command. I am damned if I'm going to have my late husband's name up there with a predator. The Army knows that and their explanation is they can't write a two-fucking paragraph to put into their, “Zero Tolerance policy,” you know, command wide. That this is how they're going to make sure that people don't remain in? Give me a break. But this is a perfect example of what I would describe as the Cabal. Which is the senior leadership's which each know the dirt on each other. Not everybody's bad, but not everybody's that impressive right now. And as a result, that's the kind of behavior that's going on. I hate to say it to the Army, but I'm not done yet.
Marissa: Good. I'm happy that you’re saying that.
Bob: I’m in the Hall of Fame and I object to being in there was a sexual predator who attacked my wife, and also ruined the life of a good friend of mine, Bill Holmes, who I knew before Camilla did. So I am personally offended by that.
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The fourth thing would be to make proactive enforcement of sexual assault and harassment policies and its procedures a part of the officer and noncommissioned officer performance appraisal system. Have a block or something to check whether that officer or NCO supports the SHARP program, and specifically provides some details because that affects your promotion.
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And lastly, we think that all felonies, such as sexual assault, murder, rape, armed robbery, those types of things need, to be prosecuted through a separate legal chain outside the chain of command. Because the chain of command has a vested interest in making sure how certain cases come out. Now, the commander's can maintain through the UCMJ control over non-felony such as failure to repair, disrespect to an officer, cowardice in the face of the enemy, misappropriation of government property. Those strictly unique totally military things, but major felony should be tried and prosecuted through a separate chain away from the chain of command.
Camilla: Also, they ought to be prosecuted by real experts. It is not appropriate to think that these crimes of this seriousness should be taken on by just anybody who happens to have a bad luck of getting the that day. And if the police around the country are in fact got these special, you know, sexual violence teams, why on earth does it feel appropriate that the military with their appallingly terrible statistics, have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is not a good idea to change?
Bob: At Fort McCoy, Wisconsin, several years ago, after a presentation, a Sergeant stood up and said, "Sir, I'll tell you one G-D thing. If a young soldier comes to me and says they've been sexually assaulted, I'm taking them downtown, because I don't trust my chain of command.” The other examples, a couple years ago, Camilla and I were with a group of 200 soldiers who lived in the barracks. And to a one, they said, if they saw sexual misconduct occurring, they would not report it because: A) the system will drag them down. And they'd be bogged down into a long process not being able to move on to other assignments. And, B) they don't trust their chain of command to do anything about it. So again, what we're seeing is soldiers are losing trust and their leadership. And I think that's a real threat to national security. Because someday on a battlefield, a Lieutenant or Sergeant is going to stand up and say, follow me. And the troops are going to say, I don't think so.
Marissa: That's really jarring. And you're completely right. It's like self sabotage. We're allowing the military, by not holding them accountable, and by them not holding each other accountable. We're allowing them to sabotage themselves. And it's putting everybody in danger, not only the people who are being assaulted, and of course, they deserve the most justice and the most support, but it's it's endangering the entire country. Because if if something like that were to happen, and the ranks don't follow the Senior Leaders, it's really it's opening us up to a lot of danger and a lot of different ways.
Camilla: I think the term that actually probably is more indicative to me is Fratricide. that this isn't just self sabotage, it is friendly-fire. You are going after your own. When is that going to be taken seriously and recognize just how destructive that is?
Marissa: That's a really good term. It's perfectly verbalized, I think. So Bob, you have this really powerful quote that's in your book, and I can never quote it perfectly. But it was something like, you know, you're more likely to be promoted if you rape somebody than if you report rape. Can you say that quote?
Bob: Well, the quote that I said, “I found out that it was more hazardous to your military career to report a sex scandal than it was to participate in one.”
Marissa: That's what it was. That's so powerful. And that, even though I don't remember it word for word that stays with me, like it resonates with me, and it's so awful.
Bob: There are a lot of good Commanders, Officers and Noncommissioned officers. It should not be that hard to weed out the predators and the problem makers. It's just a lack of commitment on the part of our senior leaders to ensure that America's sons and daughters get the positive leadership that they need. Now, I know, people will say, well, it was consensual and… but my feeling is that young people make bad mistakes. They need adult leadership. And I know several cases where a young man or woman made the wrong decision, and got involved in a relationship with a senior officer, or noncommissioned officer. In my mind as a senior officer noncommissioned officers fault. Because they're adults, they should know better. Our young men and women need strong, positive, adult leadership. Not sexual predators, who say, Well, once you come into my office and take your clothes off, and let's work on your next career advancement.
Marissa: The visual of that is disgusting, and horrifying and abusive. Is there any advice that you guys would give to a survivor that's trying to get justice?
Camilla: I think that what I've learned is that groups like Never Alone, I think know have the potential for enormous power for two reasons. One, that the victims now actually can own their own case. So it's no longer on the control of the military. And secondly, because I think that since the military’s strategy is to make each case unique and alone, your voices have great power when you gather them together. And you're able to show the patterns that we now see. That plus the #MeToo and Black Lives Matter, I think, has shifted the sensitivity to recognize that what's being said, is the truth. And I remind people, when they say, Oh, you know, you can't tell whether he or she's telling the truth. My comment back is, well, here's what I know. Victims, generally between 96%-100%. Tell the truth. Predators lie 100%.
Marissa: Yes and if you listen to the other episodes of my podcast I always say 2% and 8% of reports are false reports. And of all the people that are assaulted, only 5% actually make reports. So for that 2%, small percent of the 5% of the cases… I mean you should just be inclined to be a survivor the vast majority of survivors are telling the truth. Vast majority and like you said every single abuser, every single perpetrator and offender is lying. All of them. Thank you guys so much for being here you’re a wealth of knowledge to the insider and info I appreciate al of your help and insight and I love working you guys I’m never alone so thank you so much for being here.
Bob: Marissa thank you and please let all of the young men and women who have not come forward let them know they are not alone. They are loved. They are appreciated, we understand and we’re not judgmental. We just want to get them the care. That was our journey 25 years ago, which is my objective today. As we want to find out who is victimized and what can we do to get them care and so that they can do the best job available, they can, to live a good life. Because we know that being victimized with sexual assault is absolutely shattering to both men and women survivors.
Camilla: And Marissa I have one other points for coming obviously that is for military held the information it was difficult for the victims to understand the pattern of abuse from commanders at whatever rank. Now I think that the victims talking to each other, we can begin actually putting together these patterns to more clearly go after those Commanders.
Marissa: Absolutely the more people that shares their story the more dots we can connect.
Camilla: That’s exactly right. And each story is incredibly powerful. And for the very first time that totally changes the discussion with the military and that’s why I think that never alone is going so powerful.
Marissa: I’m really excited that we are going to do with Never Alone Soldier. I think that its going to be a game changer for survivors, and I think that its going to be a big wake-up call for military Senior Leaders and Commanders, who are good people to give them the confidence and the resources to hold the ones who are not good accountable
Camilla: I totally agree
Bob: I totally agree
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to breaking through our silence. We've been talking lately a lot about military sexual assault, because it's super important. And it's incredibly common. And it's not really talked about that much after the Vanessa Guillen issue, and finding out that she was harassed and assaulted by people on her base, to then being brutally murdered, It's such an important topic. And it's good that people are starting to bring light to it. So, I wanted to introduce a self-proclaimed regular woman just trying to make it in the world. And a friend and coalition member with me, Amy McLawhorn. Thank you so much for being here today and talking with me and sharing this insight with us.
Amy: Hi, Marissa. Thank you. That was that was a beautiful intro. I appreciate it a regular woman in the world. That's me just getting by.
Marissa: You're doing more than that. Because you're sharing your story and advocating for people who might still be too afraid to advocate for themselves. So, I want to thank you very much for that amazing work.
Amy: Well, thank you. Thank you. And I, I have gotten to a point in my life. And maybe it comes with age, but I want to shout things from the rooftops now. And I think because when I was growing up, when I was a younger woman, people and women were not shouting things from the rooftops. And I think that's why we find ourselves, one of the reasons why we find ourselves kind of in the place that we are as a society. As a civilization. And so yeah, I'm now happy to talk about my experiences. And I find it very cathartic. And I feel very much like that, if it helps one person see the light in some way, or reach out for help, or throw up their hand to say, somebody saved me or somebody helped me save myself, then it's worth it. So, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Marissa: Of course, I'm so happy that you feel empowered to speak out and inspire others. That's so brave, and honestly, just beautiful. So, I'm really honored that you want to come on and speak with me. So, would you mind telling us as much as you're comfortable with about what happened?
Amy: Sure. So, I was 15 years old. And living in Florida. My dad was a commander in the Air Force. It was a colonel in the Air Force and I believe at the time, he was a Vice Wing Commander. A girlfriend of mine and I were out on a Friday night and cruising around because she had a driver's license, but I didn't yet. And we saw this group of cute guys in a parking lot of a bar. Of course we couldn't get into the bar. We just saw him in the parking lot of the bar. And we stopped and we were chatting with them and this one guy and I hit it off and he was super handsome and very interested in me. And we had some things in common. And we started dating. Now, he was 20 years old. He was an airman stationed at the same base where my dad was stationed. I was 15. And we spent about three years together. His friends knew when we first started dating, that I was much younger than they were, obviously. I didn't even have a driver's license. Nobody said anything Our relationship progressed pretty quickly. And I would say within the first year, he was physically abusing me. It started out you know, small things. I mean, the first time he ever hit me, it was not like a punch to the face or anything like that. I mean, he's slapped me across the face. But at that point, of course, I had kind of already been beaten down. Because as we all know now from the literature and research that's out there, the abuse generally starts long before anybody actually lays hands on someone, if it even gets to that point. So anyway, I stayed with him. I hid it from my parents for a while. And when I was almost 17, I think my mom and dad found out. They of course immediately said that we couldn't see each other anymore. They put me into therapy, I continued to see him secretly and then continued to see him kind of out in the open. Eventually the beatings got really bad. And I mean they were beatings, like legitimate beatings. Closed fist, kicking, choking. He would choke me until I was unconscious. Many, many, many times. One time, I remember that he was beating me in the back of my head so hard that he broke his hand. An hour after everything had calmed down, his knuckles were like, all deformed on the top of his hand and his hand was swollen and already starting to turn black and blue. And he went to work the next day and told everybody that he punched a wall or something. And nobody ever questioned that. His friends, other airman, even people who outranked him, who were higher ranking than he was, but still travelled kind of in their friend group, saw him with their own eyes hit me, slap me, push me, pull me around, grab me by the arm, yank me into other rooms. And they never reported him to his commanders. They never asked me if I was okay. I remember them being visibly uncomfortable. And I remember them being like, Whoa, dude, calm down, or, you know, a couple of them saying something, but they never took it any farther than that. They continued to allow him to be this way, among their ranks. They continue to sit and work with him knowing that he was an abuser, that he was an alcoholic. And all of those other things, they never stepped up to say get this guy out of our ranks. One day after, basically a wake up to go to sleep day of violence. I mean, we I woke up and he was already drunk, and started in immediately. And we spent all day in this cycle. He sent me out to the store one night for something and I just drove away. Because I knew that if I went back, I was going to die. I just, I just knew that that was the night that it would go too far, and that he would kill me. And so I just kind of gathered myself in my car and I drove to my parent’s house. I was terrified. I was just sure that he was behind me. I was sure that he was following me. I got to the front gate; my parents lived on base. And I got to the front gate and the gate guard — I remember him looking at me with this look on his face, like, oh my god, like, this isn't good. And he just kind of waved me through. Like he didn't even I don't think I even dimmed my lights. You know, when you go through like the main gate, you have to dim your lights so they can see the sticker on your car and all that kind of stuff. I'm a guess. I guess they still do that. I don't know. It's been a while since I've been on a base. But I remember being so flustered and freaked out that I couldn't I didn't remember to do that. But when I got up close enough so that he could see me he just like was like go, you know. I drove to my parents’ house. And this is where my story I think differs from a lot of people. You kind of can see the juxtaposition of our two stories. So, I went home, I confessed everything to my dad and my mom, my dad was there first my mom wasn't home, but my dad was there. I told my dad everything. He obviously could see me the physical effects of what I was going through. And he said, “Okay, we have, I think we have two choices. Our two choices are for me to go across the street to the commander of security police's house — commander lived in the house right across the street. And I can tell him what's going on. And he can help guide us on what to do from here. Or you can just come home back into your family. And, you know, we don't have to tell anyone. You don't have to report this. You don't have to call the police. You don't have to whatever.” I said I want to report it. I want to tell somebody because he shouldn't be in the world as he is. And so my dad went across the street. And I remember it was really funny because the commander of Security Police came over and he was like in his gym shorts and a T shirt, which is really weird. You know, when you see like a commander in normal clothes and you're like this is so strange. Like it was just really it was kind of weird because it was like a, you know, it was like a Sunday night or Monday night or something and he was just relaxing with his family probably. So, he came over and I told him what had gone on that day and he said, "Okay, well, this happened off base. So the security police can't handle it yet. We need to contact the local police department and you'll file your report with them and he will be arrested and then when here is arrested. Security police, we will pick him up and then we will deal with him from the Air Force side.” So, the commander of the security police went with me to the local police station. My mom he and my mom, myself. My dad stayed on the base, I think that because the Wing Commander was traveling and my dad couldn't leave the base because he was on call. And so, the commander, the Security Police, and my mom took me to the local police department. I filed a report, and they went to our apartment to arrest him. And that's a whole other story. I won’t, that was insanity also. But they arrested him finally, and the commander went with me into my apartment and with my mother and helped me pack up my stuff. And we loaded it into the back of his SUV and drove it back to my parents’ house. And I kind of felt like for the first time that somebody cares. That this is I mean, I was super shocked and traumatized, obviously. But I felt like I had protection. I felt like I had people around me, right, that wasn't just my mom and my dad. And so, the next morning, my mom and I woke up early, I went to the emergency room on base — hospital. And one of my mom's friends was a charge nurse there. I think she was a Captain or a Major and, and she gave me an exam and made note of all of my injuries, and all of that kind of stuff. And then we went to the courthouse and the county courthouse, and I filed a restraining order and then walked down the hall to the courtroom and watched him be arraigned over video. He was released into the custody of the Security Police. And when I got home, I got a phone call from I don't remember exactly who was on the phone, or their ranks, I just know that there were several people in the room and they had me on speakerphone, and he was among the people in the room. So, I'd had this experience the night before where the commander really took care of me. And I know that that only happened because he and my father were peers, right? I know that. And I knew in that moment that he was doing this because this was the commander's daughter who just had the shit kicked out of her by an airman. And we need to do something about this. And I was kind of like, Oh, I have this team. Now people really care. But the next morning, when I got that phone call, I realized, oh, okay, so maybe I don't really have a team, and maybe people don't really understand what they're doing. Because that phone call consisted of, you know, first sergeant, a commander, and him. He was there in the room, when they were calling me to ask me how I wanted to handle things going forward. He can hear this conversation. He can hear you. I said, I don't know what you mean, what do you mean? And they said, Well, you know, obviously, we'll be dealing with it on our end. But we know that you guys live together. Do you want to take possession of the apartment? Or do you have somewhere else you can go? No, I don't want the apartment. I don't want anything in it. I don't care to ever go back there. I don't want to have any contact. And they said, Okay, well, we have explained to airman XYZ, that he shouldn't have any contact with you. But we want you to say to him in front of us that you don't want to have any contact with him. We would like to have it on the record so that he knows and we know what your wishes are.
Marissa: So inappropriate.
Amy: Yeah. So, I was terrified of this man. Speaking the words, I don't ever want you to contact me again, felt like he was going to come through the phone and murder me. You know what I mean? Like, that's how afraid I was of him. And the idea of confronting him in that way, even though it was only on the phone. And there were like three or four other people in the room. Me standing there alone by myself in my living room with my cordless, like, you know, my 1995 cordless home phone in my hand. I mean, I felt like he could murder me through the phone. I was terrified. But somehow, I said, I don't want any contact. I just kind of blurted it out. And I heard him gasp and say, “Are you sure?” And then the other guys in the room, you know, kind of, you heard. you know? I'm not quite sure what the purpose of that was. I still don't fully understand. I can guess at what the purpose was that they were trying to make a point like, or maybe that was their protocol back then that they, somebody need it to be able to testify to the fact that the victim said she didn't want to have contact with the perpetrator anymore. I don't really know for sure, but I said it and the call ended. And I kind of stood there like the whole thing. I just it was like an out of body experience. About four hours later, my phone rang and it was him. He lasted four hours. I'm assuming he lasted long enough for them to tell him about what was going to happen to him going forward. What the charges were, what his punishment might look like and he told me that he was proud of me for calling the police and for leaving him. I never again after that day, when the men in the room with him in the room called me to say, please tell him that you don't want to have any contact with him anymore. I never heard from the United States Air Force again.
Marissa: Nothing?
Amy: No, they never even told me what his punishment was. They never asked me to write an affidavit. They never asked me to testify in front of a JAG person, or they never sent me a letter saying, here's how we handled the beating that this airman gave you. And at the time, I asked my mom several months ago, because I thought maybe that I was misremembering. I thought that maybe in the months and the years after that I was so wrapped up in my own trauma and my own PTSD that I didn't remember kind of what had gone down. I asked my mom, I said, “did you ever hear from anybody again? Are there any letters that we got from the Air Force? Or did you guys have like conversations with them that were kind of out of my presence, you know, that you didn't want me to know that, you know, we're trying to protect me from?” And she said, No. and I was like, That's so crazy. And she said, that is really crazy. And she said, you know, your dad and I, but especially your dad we were trying really hard not to ask too many questions, because we didn't, your father didn't want there to be an implication that he was interfering in any way. That he was going to go after this guy, because that's my daughter, and I'm a Colonel and Commander. And he didn't want there to be this, any kind of doubt about whether or not he was going to get what he deserved, based on his very own shitty merit. That it wasn't like the commander Oh, the, you know, the sky data, the commander's daughter, and now he's out to get him kind of thing. So, my dad was very hands off. And he didn't ask any questions. He specifically told me that it was like, honey, I can't, I can't ask because I don't, I don't want it to look like I'm influencing anything. I need, we need to let this run its course. Well, I now wish that he had, because I don't know anything that happened. I know that he was discharged months later. I know that he was on, “Weeds and seeds.” For a while where they decided his fate. He had been an air traffic controller and they I guess, obviously took him out of, off of the scope. And that he was, “weeds and seeds" for a while. And I know that he was discharged. The only reason that I know those things is because he told me. Because he never stopped calling. He would leave me messages on the answering machine. He would call me at work. This is way before caller ID This was way before anything like that. And I never reported it because I didn't even know who to report it to because I never heard from anyone after I reported. That make sense? So, I was this like traumatized 18-year-old trying to get her shit together, trying to get her life together. And I didn't have a like, nobody gave me a business card and said, if we can help you, here's who you call. Nobody wrote down a phone number. So, if even if I had wanted to report it, I had no idea who to report it to. And I was so messed up that I thought the fact that I had even answered his call or listened to him talk to me, meant that like I was in the wrong somehow. And that my parents might be mad at me for talking to him. Even though I didn't I wasn't the one who called him he would call me and I just answered the phone. But I really still thought I was in that guilt shame cycle where I thought that it was all my fault. And I thought people would be angry if they knew. Not angry at him for breaking the restraining order, and the directive from his commander that you know, me and like three other people heard any of that. I thought they would be mad at me. And I think that really speaks to the mindset of an abuse survivor and a victim of abuse. So yeah, I had no idea who didn't even report it to the judge or the DA I guess reduced the charges against him to some kind of a misdemeanor. And he was ordered to serve like six months probation, I think. And the way I found out that the charges had been reduced was because he told me. They never called me to say we're reducing the charges. He's pled guilty. He's pled no contest. He's been sentenced to probation. I never heard from any organization after the night that I reported. Never. I never heard the United States Air Force and I never heard from the county in Florida where I lived where he was charged.
Marissa: That's disgusting.
Amy: And that's amazing to me. And I say, Oh, it was a long time ago, but 25 years is actually not that long ago. And I read a lot of stories and I see a lot of people talking online, and I don't think things have changed much since then. I'm pretty sure that most women who are either victims of domestic violence, narcissistic abuse, or victims of sexual assault don't have a Mariska Hargitay that's like SVU holding their hand on the way to every court. Like I didn't even know there was a court case. I didn't have a SARC person. There was none of that. And I see that not a lot has changed. Because I see story after story after story online, of these women and men being dismissed, being retaliated against, being ignored, being made fun of, being laughed at.
Marissa: Your bravery and sharing all that is, is amazing and inspiring. Thank you very much. Well, first of all, every single one of those organizations was wrong, not only for reducing or dismissing the charges, I hope that he was dishonorably discharged but I feel like that's not the case.
Amy: I hope he was too because… I have no idea. Where is I have no idea. Isn't that crazy? I'm sorry. Go ahead.
Marissa: No, you're right, though. I mean, and I think that you brought up a really good point that it was really only escalated and handled. I'm air quoting handled, because you were the commander's daughter. And I don't think that if you were just either a service member or the daughter of, I don't know, a sergeant, or a staff Sergeant or something. Yeah. No, not have cared, it would have been met with Oh, do we have to do the paperwork on this? Or can we let it slide? Like, how long can we dodge this issue before they give up it’s disgusting. And it happens so much?
Amy: Yeah, I mean, I would like to think that that, as far as I know that security police commander was an honorable guy. And I would like to think that he would have done that for anyone's daughter. And I and I feel like he probably would have, if it had been one of his Airmen. Does the commander come out for one of the airmen? I don't think so like, does the commander hold the hand of the young 18-year-old female airman who's just gotten the shit kicked out of her by her boyfriend? I don't think that he does. And, he should. He should. They all should.
Marissa: They all should and it shouldn't matter what your rank is or who your parent is. I'm in good faith that that security commander would have gone to bat for everyone. The problem is, it's so much more than that. Right? So yes, people that were in that room that day, while you were on the phone forced to address your abuser, the day after you were assaulted by him. First of all, I have to comment that that is disgusting. And if that's a protocol, if it's still a protocol, they need to get rid of that, because that is intimidating and it's manipulative.
Amy: It's crazy. I hope that that's not still some kind of protocol. And maybe people can like, I don't know, email you (me@MarissaFayeCohen.com) or something like tell us I would really like to know whether…
Marissa: It's a good idea if you have experienced this, and part of the protocol was that you had to be on the phone with your abuser after it happened to tell them that you didn't want any contact, shoot me an email. I'd like to know if that's still a thing because that is vile. That is a vile, manipulative tactic to make someone feel intimidated and threatened and that's not okay. And I want to address that with the people that will get rid of that. Lay that down right now. I'm not going to be quiet about that. That is disgusting. First of all, I have to commend your dad for being so awesome and level headed when you brought this up to him the day that you came home. Because I feel like for me, if I went to my dad's house after I had just gone through an event like that, my dad would have bought a shotgun. I mean, that is that is really admirable. And I understand that he was in a power position and didn't really have that option, but to be able to take a step back and be like, Okay, so here are your two options. That's amazing. And I'm so glad you had support in that moment like that. That wasn't explosive.
Amy: Well, that's what makes my dad, what made my dad while he was in the Air Force, I think probably an exceptional leader and an exceptional fighter pilots, a fighter pilot, like they don't have time to like, freak out or lose their shit. You got to decide, you know, your plane is going Mach two. What are you going to do? Yeah, my parents are amazing. And he really did me a service in that moment by giving me the choice. I had been living my life without any choices. Where I didn't feel like I was in control of my life at all. I had someone else I was the puppet and there was a puppet master who was pulling the strings and controlling my life. And my dad, Sorry, excuse me, my dad in that moment, he gave that back to me. He gave me control. And I think in that moment, that was probably one of the greatest gifts that he's ever given to me, ever in my life. He gave me back my control. And he was like, a man who gave me back my control, which, you know, if you let it get really deep into your brain, I mean, that's deep shit, right? Like, that's a really powerful moment for a young woman to have an important man in her life, give her power, give her choice, give her control. And so, I am forever grateful to him for that, in that split second that he said that, to me, was a beautiful thing. And it was the best gift that he could have given me.
Marissa: That's incredible. And I'm really, I'm really happy that that you had that experience, because it really, I can't verbalize how meaningful that is. And you did a beautiful job, you know, it is it's giving your control back after a situation where for three years, you weren't able to make a decision. Or if you tried to make a decision, you'd get beaten. You’d get hurt. I'm really happy. Something else that you mentioned, I wanted to go back to because I see this all the time is that like, brotherhood mentality where his people that saw him treating you that way didn't address it. Probably, in my opinion, because they didn't know how, but also, because there's this toxic culture, in organizations like the military, where they’re brothers, right? This is a brotherhood or you know, whatever and they really can't rat on people without being considered like a betrayer, or whatever. And that's so gross, and so toxic. Do you want to comment on that a little?
Amy: I think if I could like wave a magic wand, that would be one of the first things that I would do away with. That mentality. And I think you hit the nail on the head when you said a lot of them, maybe didn't know what to do. But I know for a fact, And I remember for a fact that there were people there around us who were older and more higher ranking than him, who had airman under them, who should have known better. Were they not taught like, hey, if you see one of your airmen like slapping his girlfriend around, you need to report it?Like that's not to me, that's not a stretch, right? Like, I would like to say that people didn't know what to do. And they were shocked and all those kinds of things And I'm willing to give that to most people. I'm not willing to give that to somebody who has 15 years in the military and who has people under them. Or 10 years in the military, you know, who has Airmen or soldiers or sailors or Marines under them that they don't, they don't know what to do in that moment. I mean, their whole job, the oath that they take is about protecting America, right against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Like, how do you not know what to do about that? And so yes, that, to me, is one of the most disappointing things about my story. And about the millions of stories that I read about, and that I hear every year is the lack of accountability, and the lack of responsibility that service members feel either for their female counterparts or for the spouses and significant others of their co-workers. And it must stop. Guys get your shit together. If that makes you uncomfortable, that is a really good indicator that it's wrong and you should tell someone. You should tell someone. I mean, if any one of those guys who saw that or knew about that firsthand would have gone to a commander and said, this guy is dangerous. He doesn't need to be an air traffic controller. He's an alcoholic, and he beats his girlfriend. He shouldn't be in charge of pilots lives because that's what it comes down to with an air traffic controller. I mean, these guys, they have a job to do that keeps lives safe. So, I don't understand why people would want to be friends with a guy like that. I don't understand why people would want to continue to work with a guy like that. You know, I never expected anybody to like fist fight him or something. You know what I mean? Like, I wasn't waiting for some like big moment where somebody like swooped in and saved me because I knew that that was not going to happen. But it is amazing to me that nobody reported him. That's crazy.
Marissa: It's a testament to the training. When I worked for the army, I put together a ton of trainings with other people who worked on the base with me because our trainings were outdated. They were inaccurate. All of the trainings are, are a cover your ass tactic. It's not like they were taking them seriously anyways, and people go into those training soldiers go into those trainings knowing this is just a check off a box. Especially in the 80s and 90s, domestic violence was not taken seriously. I remember reading articles, and doing research on this when I was in my master's program, about how in the 80s, if somebody called for a domestic dispute to the police, a police officer would show up, ask the aggressor, what the victim did, and tell the victim to stop doing whatever that was to make the aggressor angry. Told the aggressor to go take a walk around the block until they cooled down. That was how they handled it. And imagine the military being much different.
Amy: In my story, I guess it's good that he got discharged. But again, how many people don't? How much of that was the fact that they never talked to me again. They never, you know, explained to me what was going on. But my last name was still on that paperwork. Right? So, was he discharged because of who my dad was? I don't know. I have no idea. But I do know that I hear about a lot of guys doing a lot worse stuff, or the same level of bad stuff, who don't get discharged. So that makes me wonder, too. I mean, in some respects, every story should be like mine, in the level of care that I got that first night, and all of that stuff. And the fact that my abuser was ultimately discharged. But the other side of my story isn't all that different from everybody else's. And that's what has to change. My dad often says that when a change needs to be made, that most of the time, you'll have to drag most people kicking and screaming over the finish line.
Marissa: I love that.
Amy: You have to you have to force it; you have to force it. But once you forced it, and some time goes by where the change is now the new normal, the problem starts to get better, right? Because you forced the change. And now, people see it as normal and that's what's going to have to happen in the military. With the issues of sexual assault and domestic violence. We are going to have to drag people kicking and screaming, it's going to have to be like bloodshed. Like nobody is safe. It needs to be that if you see something and you don't say something, you get punished, not, “Oh, we'll chalk it up to we need to educate you more, or we need to send you to another SHARP class.” If you see something and you don't say something, even if you weren't the perpetrator, you're in trouble.
Marissa: You're out.
Amy: You’re out.You’re done, because you're not the kind of person that we want in our United States military.
Marissa: I don't understand if the oath is to protect foreign and domestic, why are we not protecting domestic? Abuse is terrorism. It's literally the definition of terrorism. It is making somebody feel scared to be. Why is that not taken as seriously as a foreign enemy? Because domestic enemy can live in your house with you.
Amy: Yeah, domestic enemies do live in our homes with us. They live in our homes. They work in your tower. They work in your Squadron. They are everywhere. And my dad is a strong believer in diversity is like, people have to understand that everything is made better by diversity. And a lot of people aren't on board with that, because they don’t, they don't understand the power that comes with diversity in your workforce, whether it's military or private sector, or your friend group. It amplifies and increases the value of everything around you. So, we can continue to live in this space in the military, where we let women in because we had to. And they're really not vital to you know, we don't feel any need to protect them really, because they’re… Yeah, they're not as strong or physically large. But you're missing out. You're missing out on the diversity that comes with women, being in your workplace. And if you don't protect that diversity, you don't protect that space to make it so that you can have a diverse space, and a diverse force, then you are weakened by that. You are making yourself weaker every day. Every time that you don't protect one of the females under your command. You are weakening yourself, and you are weakening your force. But somehow commanders are missing it. They're missing it because they're trying to protect themselves.
Marissa: I completely agree like the bureaucratic nonsense. It's all old school mentality and it's all bullshit. Last question, what advice do you have for other survivors to help them to heal and overcome what they've gone through.
Amy: My first biggest piece of advice is therapy. However, you can get it. Because your brain is not equipped to manage this alone, you really need the help of a professional. Find one that you connect with, find one that makes you feel safe. Find one that has some experience in trauma, and everything that goes along with that. Whenever you feel safe enough talk about it, I think talking about it takes some of the scariness out. Admitting it to friends and family that maybe you haven't talked about it with. Maybe they just know that you guys broke up, but they don't know why. Talking about it, the more you talk about it, the less it stings. You know, I'm sure there's a psychologist who probably give that a name, obviously. But I just know that the more that I talked about it, the less it hurt. Also, the more I talked about it, and the more I told people, its kind of helped me stay accountable to myself to not go back. Because I think that that is a real struggle that every woman who is in a domestic violence situation struggles with. We all struggle with that. I mean, women leave sometimes several times before they're finally able to stay away. And one of the things that really helped me stay away, when the evil voice was kind of churning in my head, like, go back, he loves you, this is what you deserve, right? Was that I had told a bunch of people. And I didn't want to have to be like, “Oh, no, I told you that you'd beat the shit out of me, but we're back together." That helps hold me accountable. It sounds crazy and people think like, why would you even think about going back? But you do you absolutely do think about going back. So yeah, tell people. Share with people that you feel safe enough to share with what you've been through. But yeah, just know that you can do this. Follow the advice of domestic violence organizations out there. Make a plan for yourself, know where you're going to go, and who you're going to, and know how you're going to get there. Because I think that helps, I think that I was very lucky that I could leave there and run home to the safety of my parent’s house, I was very, very lucky. And I didn't have to make a plan I just ran away Not everybody has the opportunity to do that. So, if you know that you're not one of those people that has an opportunity to do that, try to make a plan. There's a lot of literature out there. There are a lot of great websites out there that can give you a checklist for how to leave. And go there and learn and figure out how to leave. And once you've left, follow the advice of people who have been there to help you stay away and stay safe. But yeah. Therapy, I think, is one of the top things that I can recommend to people, you just you can't get through it on your own. Like if you get sick, you go to a doctor, because the doctor has the knowledge and the skill and the medicine to help you get well. And this coming out of something like this is a sickness, and you need a doctor to help you get better. It is so freeing and life can be so beautiful, and full and happy and safe. It's so worth it.
Marissa: Thank you for sharing that. And just so anybody listening knows if you need a safety planning worksheet, I have one available on my website, MarissaCohen.com/free-resources . It's a full checklist of all the things to pack, what to do before you want to leave when you're leaving and after you leave. So, thank you for bringing that up. We have that covered on the site. But you could also obviously look into other resources as well.
Amy: Yeah, thank you, I'm so glad you have that Marissa. That's awesome.
Marissa: The most dangerous time in a domestic violence relationship is leaving. The abuser feels like they're out of control. Which is probably why yours was calling you a couple times a month to check in to try and still have that control over you, despite all the orders and no contact. But thank you so much for being here and for imparting all of your knowledge and insights on us and teaching us how to navigate this horrible scary situation. And thank you for your honesty. I really appreciate your time.
Amy: Oh, thank you, Marissa, thank you for listening and thank you for Amplifying Voices of women and men who have had these experiences. That cone of silence, and that cone of shame It goes away every time somebody speaks and the more people speak, the more change happens.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today I have on a very special friend of mine. Corinne McGrath-Preston is a veteran that served in the US Army and the Vermont Army National Guard for almost 10 years. She and I go way back to high school. And she's the kindest and friendliest person that I know. I am honored to have her on the show today. And I'm so grateful that people like her serve our country, and are speaking out about their abuse. Thank you for coming on today, Corinne.
Corinne: Thank you for having me.
Marissa: Of course, I am. I'm sorry that these are the circumstances under which we talk. But I'm really, really grateful that you're speaking out about what happened to you, and that you're sharing your story so that other people know what actually happens to people in the military, and that this isn't one isolated issue.
Corrine: Yeah, it's hard, because a lot of people will pick it up. And it's, the mainstream media will pick up a story here and there. But it would just be continual and nonstop, if they reported on every single instance. So, when something big like this happens (Vanessa Guillen), it definitely brings up a lot for a lot of people. I think what made it easier for me to start speaking about this was that I'm officially out now. And that's a weird feeling unto itself. Because it's, it's a toxic relationship that you have with the service, especially, where you have a circumstance where you survive through… it's just it's shitty, it's horrible. It sucks. And all at the same time. You fight so hard to keep it. And it's just this weird, toxic cycle that you fall into, with the military. So, it's just, it's weird.
Marissa: That's such a good way to phrase that it's a toxic relationship. Because I mean, I've never served, the closest I got to serving was being a contractor working in mental health. And from an outside perspective, that was so evident to me that people were fighting to be promoted, they were fighting to gain rank, they were fighting for all of these goals. And it was like, just hitting a wall every time especially for people that sought out mental health help. You know, if you had mentioned that you were suicidal, you are no longer promotable. You're not allowed to have a firearm, you're not allowed to. you're not combat ready, you're not anything. So, you're pretty much just sitting pretty until your contract ends. And that's so unfortunate, because it degrades mental health, and it stops people from seeking out the help they need to be truly combat ready.
Corinne: It's a love-hate relationship. Like I, only I made that Facebook post and I had said a lot of what I had experienced directly from my command and from my unit at the time. And I was brand new to my unit. I was assaulted by my team leader within two months of joining guard. And then I literally like I felt like I lost everything. Like I spent all of those months in training and finding out that this was something that I loved. And this is something I wanted to do. And then I had it ripped away from me. And then it started feeling like it was ripped away from me repeatedly. And it was just, I stayed in; you know what I mean? Like that was in 2012. And here it is 2020. And now I'm officially out but I kept myself in that scenario. Knowing already what it had done to me what it's done to my family what they've had to put up with. It's just there's a lot there's a lot to it. And it's crazy how much of a fight it is to just be in garrison. To be promoted to be sent to schools. To be considered a decent soldier, in my case. It's just there's so much.
Marissa: Do you mind talking a little bit about what you went through, and then the aftermath of what it felt like to be stuck there?
Corinne: So, in the Guard, I didn't report within the first month after the attack. I reported in July at Camp Johnson, it’s really the only kind of place other than camp Ethan Allen training site where there Offices other than the Armory. My First Sergeant at the time, had me drive from where I live to Camp Johnson, which was about an hour and a half drive, to have me sit in a tiny little office space and have her tell me like after I told her what had happened, she literally looked me in the eye and said, “You put yourself in that situation, so you deserve it.” Yep. And I had a lot of people make excuses for her I still definitely might my heart pounds when I see her or her brother, who was also in the guard. Because Vermont, like I said, Vermont's a very small place. So, there's always, always the possibility you're going to run into someone you know, which is very true, especially in my small town. And so, every time I run into her, I'm just like I feel it all over again. And it wasn't, that wasn't the only instance where she made my life or friends of mine, who were also serving, a living hell. She would speak to me indirectly, in a formation, kind of airing out dirty laundry like, “Don't, don't spend the night in a hotel room with other service members. Don't put yourself in a situation where you might be sexually assaulted.” Like a very victim blaming instance, she basically made it so that her lower enlisted friends would follow me around on drill weekends, and made sure I didn't talk to anyone, or just I wasn't even allowed to go anywhere on the armory by myself. I would constantly have someone following me. Usually it was a specialist or an E5. a Sergeant. And they would literally just follow me around, make sure I didn't really talk to anyone. So being a survivor, and not really giving myself the ability to process for as many years as I did, I just kind of shoved it down. I feel like it really has affected my relationship with my children first and foremost, because I wasn't in tune with myself, I couldn't be myself. So, in the past two years, all of the work that I really tried to put in granted, yeah, I was active duty. But I did so much therapy, that my unit my unit hated me for that (active-duty side.) I was constantly going to therapy because of all of the things that had happened. I was just so angry all the time. And I went out with a couple of friends, I got drunk, we came home and I ended up getting into a verbal altercation, that escalated two pictures getting knocked off the wall, Jeremy and I bumping into the table and the table flipped over and the MP’s were called. And so, I became a problem soldier while I was active duty, and not just in the guard because I didn't handle my shit. And it literally almost cost me my family. And so now since I've been out and since I've been home and since COVID, I've really had to come to terms with a lot of things. And notice a lot more about my life. Like that I definitely had postpartum when I had Elena. And I definitely shoved it down and didn't focus on it because it brought up so much about the assault and about all of the different traumas that I just I categorized it in my brain and was like nope, not dealing with this. So, I'm realizing this as I'm trying to be a mom of three now, not just two, and I'm trying to be a better mother and I understand that I need to be my best self but the Army literally took that from me.
I will never spend a day not being affected by it.
Jeremy shuffles his feet to come up and down the stairs intentionally and like knocks on walls if he's behind me walking up in the kitchen or he intentionally makes noise to make sure that I know he's there. Because I'm always going to be jumpy. And my kids can't jump out and surprise me. I freaked out even in the last couple of months, I freaked out because Cameron has jumped out from behind something decided surprise me and I'm still in the mindset where I need to be on guard and these are my children. This is my husband. It will never not be in every aspect in every corner of my life. And that's really hard for me to come to terms with but this is where I'm at.
Marissa: Right, I'm really glad you said that and I'm so sorry for how much it's impacted your life and just know you're not alone. You know, we are people growing up. And then as soon as something like this happens to us, especially in adulthood like you and I are whole world is turned upside down and we just change like, we will never be that person again. I will always have self-doubt, because of the abuse I went through. I will always have certain reactions to different scenarios and situations because of what I went through. And same for you and it's horrible. I don't think people recognize how much sexual assault impacts your whole well-being and your whole life like you're never the same person again, never. What was your rank when that happened to you?
Corinne: I was a PFC when I was assaulted and then I did not get promoted to specialist until 2017 because I struggled so much with my weight. I struggled so much with working out. Looking back, I couldn't get over myself to push myself that far. I had ended up getting a hip injury and it just started to really slow me down after having Cameron and Elena I couldn't do sit ups anymore. So, I went on a permanent profile. But then losing weight was my biggest issue. And weight is directly tied to mental health, especially for me, and the way that you eat and the way that you're living your life. So, when I finally did get promoted to a specialist, that's when I decided, “Oh, I'm going to go active duty, I'm going to do these things. I'm going to reset my career. I'm going to go and, and do all these great things and play ‘real army.’” And when I got there, after having a couple of triggering incidences, I wasn't attacked again. I wasn't assaulted. I just wasn't handling my own self and my own triggers. And I ended up letting it affect every aspect because I didn't know how to stop myself. I didn't know how to reverse me catastrophizing, and I ended up getting demoted back down to PFC before getting out. So, I'm still PFC, McGrath Preston. But I made it a specialist before really just throwing in the towel and saying I was done.
Marissa: What kind of discharge did you did you have following all of this?
Corinne: Well, they did try to get me out on a couple of different things before I ultimately was pregnant with Jacob and decided that I was going to take the chapter for essentially for pregnancy, because I was like I can't do this again. I need I needed a way out. And that was, that was the way that I took. So, I do have an honorable discharge, which is more than I can say for a lot of other people that I know of. The joke was with a couple of friends that I was going to swap urine samples with them to pretend to piss hot so I could get out of there faster. Because it took me months and months and months. I literally I started the process in August of 2019. And found out the day after Christmas, that my paperwork had gone through. Which in the grand scheme of the army, that's pretty quick. But for my whole family and I being out in Colorado, it was a long time.
Marissa: Yeah, they're definitely not quick, with their paperwork. The bureaucracy behind everything is ridiculous. And while working there, I learned that it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission, because to get permission to do anything in the mental health field would have taken longer than the span of my contract.
Corinne: It’s also a very climate driven thing as well. Because if you if you as a soldier want something done, and your leadership doesn't really care, it's going to take longer. If your leadership is hell bent on getting something done, things will move so much faster.
Marissa: What if you don't mind me asking? What happened to the person who abused you? Do you know where they are now?
Corinne: So, I found out when they were trying to get him out of the army. I knew he was married. But I found out that he had two teenage daughters, which really, really fucked with me. And because he had assaulted me and I had reported him, after his deployment, he was given all of his benefits through the VA. And there was nothing I was told there was nothing that could be done about that, that he was going to keep those no matter what. And he was going to be given an Other Than Honorable Discharge because the Vermont Army National Guard did not have CID. We weren't attached to 10th Mountain out of Fort Drum yet. Like it was still its own entity. He was an EMT, in the Washington DC area. And for all I know, he probably is still an EMT. He's probably still in that position where he's supposed to be taking care of people. And he's more than likely still abusing that power. When he was getting pushed out, it’s kind of went back and forth a little bit where my advocate and my recorder, which is because there was a recorder for the Army with the best interest of the Army, who didn't give a rat's ass about me, which is fine. I understand that was his job. But my recorder, was there intentionally, like intentionally to be there with my best interest. And I cannot remember this man's name, I'm sure it's still in my email somewhere. But he and my victim advocate were like, “So this, your attacker wants to write you a letter to apologize.” And I was like, if he's going to write me a letter, I want him to sit down with a therapist and actually work through his bullshit. Because you're not going to just give me a blanket letter that says I'm sorry. And his representation came back and was like, well, we will we will do therapy if he stays in the army. And I was like, no, go fuck yourself. Like, instantly, like, there was no question. Take your fucking letter and send it somewhere else. Nope, not even going to happen. But I remember I was holding Cameron, who was a couple months old at the time. And I remember holding him and having this conversation with the Captain and being like, “Nope, I don't want a single thing from this man. I don't want an apology letter. I don't want anything and especially, I don't want him in boots. If it gets him out of boots faster, like he can just go pound sand elsewhere.” He had gotten an administrative move from the unit within a couple weeks of me reporting. It was around the same time. He also the weekends that he had attacked me, went to JAG and spoke to them and told them basically that, hypothetically, he had relations with someone that he felt was going to come forward and accuse him of sexual assault. So, the weekend he attacked me, he went to JAG and set up this whole story that I was just feeling bad about the fact that we had relations. And they believed him. They gave him a lawyer who was local in Burlington. So, he knew that this was all… He had a plan on how all this was going to go down. So, he then went back down to Washington, DC, and he got moved to North field out of Winooski. And, god, it's so convoluted, there's so much that goes on in this entire story. So, I go to JAG and I asked JAG for help. And JAG goes, “Well, we can't give you any legal help”. So, I go to CUSI, which is the Chittenden Unit for Special Investigations and I filed a report with them. And then I filed for relief of abuse order. The Army gave me the No Contact order and flagged me so I couldn't get promoted. I couldn't go to schools. I couldn't do anything. And then months down the line after my multiple different victim advocates that I had, because every time that I had a meeting with someone, I had a different victim advocate like I never, never kept the same advocate. So, I would tell the advocate my story before going into the meeting, and then I would tell the story again in the meeting, and then nothing would happen. And it just it got worse and worse. Until finally, my victim advocate Jason Cleveland, SSG Cleveland stuck with me and he drove me from Winooski down to Northfield to meet with a Sergeant Major and a Lieutenant Colonel. What they forgot to mention was that:
A. This was my attackers new unit; and B. was his family day. So, he was in civilian clothes, and he wasn't like in any mandated training. They didn't know where he was.
So, they walked us upstairs into the second floor and put us in this tiny little office and basically told me that I wasn't allowed to leave the office because he was there in the building. And I lost my mind. I was in this tiny little room. Well, it wasn't even that tiny, but to me it was it was just small. And I was pacing and I was freaking out and Staff Sergeant Cleveland was just sitting there and he's watching me and I remember there was a LT or Captain that came in to do my line of duty. So, it took from July when I reported until November to have this paperwork done. That said I had been assaulted and I had a medical, because the line of duty is for the VA essentially. And because at the time that I was assaulted on a drill weekend, I didn't count for a VA rating, I still technically don't count for a VA rating. I'm currently fighting that battle. And I wasn't entitled to anything through the VA, for PTSD for victim services, because drill weekends didn't count. It was just a continual shit show to be totally honest.
Marissa: Everything you said is valid, though. I mean, truly, if you want to dig deep, the military does not take care of their own, one of the things that I learned is, you're more likely to be promoted in the military, for raping and abusing somebody than you are for being victimized. And doing all the right things and taking all the right steps to resolve the issue and to get yourself situated.
Corinne: The term is Failing Upwards. Because if they promote you, you move, and they don't have to deal with you anymore.
Marissa: Exactly. And I not to make this about me But I recorded an episode that I talked about my story and about, I only worked for the military and I was being harassed by a guy that worked in HHC. I found out after I'd made a report that he had abused or harassed or stalked seven women before me. And then after I made a report, my contract mysteriously ended. And then he was promoted and moved again. Now he has I think, nine or 10 reports on him for abusive behavior. And he just keeps getting promoted. I'm pretty sure he's a staff sergeant right now, which is disgusting, because that means he has a lot of people under him. And those people are vulnerable to him, because they're, he's their first line leader. And you know, what are they going to do if they speak out against him? What do you think from all of this that you've experienced, what do you think the military needs to change to make this more survivor friendly?
Corinne: I used to think that there were redeemable qualities about the Army. I mean, there's a few NCOs that I can name on one hand that are amazing people and that's, about it. I honestly think that it needs to be taken down to its core and rebuilt. I think that, like you show up for the first day, and people are like, Oh, I'm going to make these jokes that are going to make you uncomfortable. And I know they're going to make you uncomfortable. But as soon as you say that you're uncomfortable, It's not me, it's your problem. So, if someone makes a sexist comment about female soldiers, you're just supposed to take it. You're just supposed to absorb it, because that’s the culture ultimately is that it's a man's job. And you're not going to ever be good enough. And the military itself is power and control. That is why we have a military is for power and control. And there are people that are drawn to that will utilize that mentality, and take advantage of other people, both male and female. And that's what sexual assault ultimately is about. It’s about power and control. So, this environment is just fostering these people because it's not genders specific. The only reason that it becomes gender specific is because there's only 15% females in the United States Military and that's where people are like, “Oh, it's only it's only males that are attackers.” But it's not true there. There are female attackers, there are male victims. There is male and male violence, there's so much to it, it's just you can't fix it. Because that is literally the environment. That is the Military. There is no fixing it. Like there, you can tear it all down and that very core of it being power and control. The only way you're going to eat out these individuals is if you have like the most insane psychological testing, and even then, there's always going to be someone that gets through.
Marissa: I think that beyond psyche evals, which are important, in my opinion just as like a personality measure, I think there needs to be a system (and something that I'm actually working on separately) is a third-party system to help survivors of military sexual abuse because I think that keeping it internal is dangerous. You went to all the right channels, but because he went to the JAG first to defend himself preemptively knowing what he did was wrong, then you were at a disadvantage. They didn't believe you. They didn't give you a lawyer. What kind of bullshit system is that?
Corinne: And it's because all he literally had just gotten back from a deployment with the unit that I was attached to. Like they knew him is what they kept saying to me, “Oh, no, you’re lying because I know him. And he wouldn't do that”. And my First Sergeant was a driving force behind that where she made it so that I was extremely ostracized and alienated. “Oh, don't pull them McGrath.” was literally something that was said after I'd been moved from the unit in a safety brief. And she's still a First Sergeant, she's still in the army. She's going to finish out. She's going to have 20 years. And if she ever makes Sergeant Major, I think I'll be sick. She probably because she's protecting perpetrators. There was actually one point where I was doing my, my yearly physical, and I was talking to a Major, and he was asking me all these questions, and I was responding honestly, and 100% openly. And he actually left in the middle of my talking with the provider, because he was like, “I need to go find her, because she worked in the medical fields. She like she was a medic, and she worked in Med-Det. as a civilian as a technician, while simultaneously serving in the guard.” And literally, he went to go find her and confronted her about it and she wouldn't come back to the room. She told him to tell me she was sorry. And this was years after the fact. There's a lot in the military. There's a lot like her. I was told when I went to Northfield to go talk to that Sergeant Major and that Lieutenant Colonel, on the way there, I was telling Jason Cleveland, my victim advocate, that all of these things had been happening. And then as soon as we got there and everything that happened, and they gave me my LOD, I finally was able to get in to talk to the Lieutenant Colonel. He's like, why are we just getting this point, the Sergeant Major said, “Well, if you think about it, in drill weekends, we're pretty on point like, it's only been like X number of days.” And that's literally when I knew that I didn't matter. Like that was how the timeline was being perceived was in drill weekends, every two days. That's how my life was being measured. It wasn't being measured in the times that I would go home and I wasn't sleeping at night, so I would drink so that I wouldn't think about how my body felt. It was nothing. It was every time I was in boots, that was the only time that it mattered. Every time I was in the uniform, that was when I counted as a soldier, but not as a human being. And then I was told, because I asked if I could be moved to the air ambulance unit, I was told by that same Sergeant Major, "That was too much of a good thing. Because medics fight for that slot, and there would be too much. I would have to learn so much about the helicopters, and that would be too much for me.” So, I would have to stay either in Charlie Med or be moved to Med Det., which wasn't that safe because her brother, my First Sergeant's brother was a Staff Sergeant at Med Det. And I had already been through an instance, that previous summer in August, where I was ordered by my First Sergeant's brother to sit on a cooler in a tiny kitchenette, the size of literally a closet, while they broke the Relief of Abuse Order and the No Contact Order, and brought my attacker through the back gate of Camp Johnson, and into the same hallway that I was in. And he told me, my First Sergeants brother told me that, “Well, he wouldn't do anything because I deployed with him. And he wouldn't do that.” So I wasn't allowed to go outside of my unit, I was going to stay if I stayed in the medical field, I was going to be in one situation or another where everything was going to be absolutely controlled by them. Or I could lose my medic status and become a zero-zero-fox, which is essentially a placeholder MLS and be moved elsewhere, which is ultimately what happened. There was a meeting of Sergeant Majors, and my Sergeant Major stood up and said, “I will take her because he knew the guy I was dating at the time his father had mentioned to him what had been going on. And that was the only reason that this Sergeant Major was like she's not a problem. Like she's now my soldier.” And I was moved over into Garrison Support Command GSC and worked for Range Control at Camp Ethan Allen training site. And honestly, if it wasn't for my Sergeant Major and if it wasn't for my First Sergeant that I'd been moved to Thomas Combs I honestly don't think I would have survived my first five years of being in the Army National Guard
Marissa: I'm so sorry. That's so much bullshit and bureaucracy. I mean, the Military definitely misuses human beings. And, you know, it's such an abuse of power. And it’s limitless. It's a limitless abuse of power So what advice would you give to other military survivors to help them get through all of this?
Corinne: Something that has really helped me a lot. When I was in Fort Carson, I was I was going to a therapist, there at Behavioral Health Team 5, and I was sitting in the waiting room, and I found this last brochure about Equine therapy. I emailed the woman, because I was curious about it, because it talked about relearning how to trust yourself. And I was like, well, that's a weird thing to say. And I ended up going, and there were multiple instances where I actually cried, because of the equine therapy. It's really powerful, just going out into this herd of mares and figuring out which one you have sort of a connection with. And then you groom them for the first part of the therapy. And then you ultimately do an exercise. And the one that really helped me start to understand was, it's essentially you put the lead on the ground, and you have the horse follow you through an obstacle course, essentially. My best friend's mom, who I consider my mom, had actually come to visit me and she even mentioned after watching this therapy session. She was like, “I could see it from where I was the change that came over you.” And I, it still gives me chills because it was so, so powerful to remind me that I can not only trust myself, but I could, trust others around me, even if I can't speak to them. And I 100% recommend Equine Therapy to MST survivor at any at any point. If you can get just near a horse. I know it's terrifying to even begin to consider like, well, if I can't trust myself, how am I supposed to trust an animal that's a good 100 times my size in some cases. It's worth it. It's worth the risk. And absolutely incredible to have that kind of connection. And to remember that, that you can have that connection with someone or something.
Marissa: Thank you so much for sharing that. That's amazing. I have heard great things about equine therapy. But its good talking is a good thing. And I'm really honored that you felt comfortable enough to talk to me about this and go through you went through. And you're really doing such a huge service to people helping them explore what they went through and heal from it because you are so brave and I adore you. Military Sexual Trauma Movement
Corrine: Thanks for having me. And I’m glad we did finally get a chance to reconnect and to talk about this.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
narcissist. narcissism. overcoming narcissism. toxic relationship. toxic people. ways to heal. how to heal from emotional abuse. living with a narcissist. good friends. healthy relationship. intimate partner violence. intimate partner relationship. healthy relationships. self love. confidence. self esteem. low self esteem. self esteem activities. confidence exercises. breaking through the silence. what does emotional abuse do to you. what does it mean to be narcissistic. what being with a narcissist does to you. what emotional abuse does to you. learning how to trust myself again. i trust myself. i only trust myself. in myself i trust. trust myself. MST military. MST movement. military sexual trauma movement. MST survivor. equine therapy. abuse of power. military abuse of power. UCMJ abuse of power.
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. This was a big week for sexual assault and trafficking survivors around the country. First, on Thursday morning, Ghislaine Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein’s girlfriend, recruiter and partner in assaulting hundreds of young women, was arrested in New Hampshire. To me, that means the FBI has finally compiled enough evidence to arrest his entire empire. I can’t express how excited I am to watch that topple and burn to the ground. Then, articles started surfacing about John Paul Doerr III, son of the top judge in Bucks County, PA —Thomas Doerr. He pled guilty to exploiting children through possessing and distributing a massive amount of child porn. And he was basically let off with a slap on the wrist. I would consider that arrest a slap on the wrist. This enraged community was making huge strides to resolve the problem of abusers and traffickers not being held accountable, and then this happened. So, I’m calling all my listeners to make a stink about this. This man should be in prison for 250 years — based on the amount of child pornography and the 45 felony charges against him. Instead, he was given 5 years probation, six months of house arrest, and 15 years in the Megans Law registry… he’s only 34. 15 years is nothing. He gets to restart his life at 50, but ruined the lives of many children… lives they’ll never get back. We need to get this man off the street.
Now that we’ve discussed some current events, I want to shift the focus to the military, and the corrupt, loose system that they have to deal with sexual assault predators and perpetrators.
With hashtag #IamVanessaGuillen trending, and the discovery of remains near Ft. Hood, I think it’s appropriate to address the persistent and rampant issue of sexual assault in the military. I want to start off by saying that I support the brave people who enlist to protect our country. This is bigger than that. This is a systemic issue from the top. And it’s not a new issue. In fact, it’s an issue that has been covered up and swept away by the military for longer than anyone cares to admit. For a short period of time between January 2017-April 2018, I was a Contractor for the United States Army Reserve. My role was to create an Employee Assistance Program, where I would work one-on-one with military members who faced adult life issues, ranging anywhere from substance abuse to suicide, to sexual assault and domestic violence. In that time, I built the biggest program in the army, with over 200 service members either reaching out or enrolling in my program. I’m not saying that to brag. I bring that up because, in a down trace of over 14,000 people, only 200 of them felt comfortable reaching out for mental health. And when I came forward and reported a situation that I had been experiencing, my contract mysteriously and suddenly ended, with less than a days notice.
The military has an unhealthy way of demeaning mental health as a weakness, and criticizes the people that reach out for help. Instead, they tell service members to Unfuck Themselves, and just get over it. In 14 months, I spoke to over 100 people that were abusing substances, another 50 that had disclosed suicidal ideations or attempted suicide, and a ton who had survived domestic violence, and endured sexual assault. The reported sexual assault and domestic violence numbers were scary low. Like, under 20 people. But the people who disclosed to me outside of the reporting system, was astronomical.
The way the military works is, if you’ve been sexually assaulted, you have two reporting options. If you disclose your assault to anyone besides the Sexual Assault Response Coordinator or SARC, or Victim Advocate, it supposedly sparks a loud, public, open investigation. If you disclose your assault to a SARC, you can opt for a restricted report, which means only the SARC will hear about it, and it will not open an investigation. Or you can choose to make an unrestricted report, which theoretically SHOULD open a full criminal investigation…. AGAINST THE ACCUSED. However, it is at the commander of the bases discretion whether or not they choose to open an investigation, even if you make an unrestricted report and ask for an investigation.
I can only speak from my experiences. What I learned while working for the Army, and what I observed as far as “protocols’ went, and what I endured. My experience is nowhere near as tragic as Vanessa Guillen, and I don’t aim to compare. All of the people coming forward, speaking their truth about their horrible experiences with the military should be greeted with an open mind, kindness, and support. Most service members stay silent because it is career-ending to report abuse. They get PCS’ed (transferred), retaliated against, blamed, and labeled unpromoteable “problem soldiers”. The abusers on the other hand, get promoted, “counseled” in a private meeting where they get a slap on the wrist (not unlike Brock Turner), and maybe transferred with no additional repercussions.
Retired Major General Shadley, a wise man, advocate, colleague, and future guest on Breaking Through Our Silence with his amazing survivor wife Camilla, wrote in his book that you’re more likely to get promoted for raping someone, than reporting being raped in the military. Think about that for a second. Someone commits a violent crime, recognized by the FBI as the second most violent crime next to homicide, and instead of being held accountable, they are rewarded?? Maybe I’m alone in this, but that doesn’t add up to me. What other crime can you commit that hurts somebody else and be rewarded for it? Or not be held accountable for it? Literally none. You break into someones house and steal something, you’re arrested. You rob someone? You punch somebody in the face, you’re arrested. You start a fight in a bar, you’re arrested. But you can rape somebody or abuse somebody and get counseled, promoted and transferred? Are you kidding me?
While working at the Parkhurst Reserve Center under the 416th TEC, it was my job to befriend service members and provide them with mental health in whichever areas they needed. For this reason, and my sparkling personality, I became friendly with a lot of people on the base. I would spend lunch working out with them, we would compete in fun, gym-related competitions, play competitive scrabble, and throughout the day, I would be seen walking around, hanging out in different rooms, talking with people and building rapport. It was a part of the job, but also, a fun way to make the workday less mundane.
One of the service members, whose name I won’t disclose for legal reasons, not that i’m trying to protect him, took advantage of the situation. He knew that my role was to help, and so he created reasons to come to my desk and request time almost daily. We developed a friendship, and would casually chat throughout the day. But what started as innocent friendship, quickly became an abuse of a good-natured program.
He initially started the professional relationship speaking about marital issues. He was considering a divorce from his wife because he was unhappy. He would explicitly describe sexual encounters that made me extremely uncomfortable, and follow it up with all the things that he would do for her sexually, if only she would return the favor. That alone is such a violation of the professional boundaries that I set. But I wanted to remain professional, and felt that if I cut him off, then everyone on this small base who knew him for far longer than they knew me, would feel uncomfortable speaking with me — which I didn’t want. So, I asked him to stop speaking so vividly about that, and tried to focus on resolutions.
Then, through mutual friends on the base, he found my Facebook. He proceeded to message me while at work, and after, until late at night, even if I didn’t respond. He would comment about the things he would do to me “if we were both single” which neither of us were. And I would ignore him, or ask him not to say things like that. He would get angry and throw a hissy fit, try to gaslight me into feeling guilty for calling him out, then continue the conversation like it never happened.
Sometimes, I would open my phone for 15-20 messages, unanswered, not responded to, and unprovoked.
I felt stuck. On one hand, I hoped that working with him would allow other people on the base to feel comfortable talking to me. But on the other hand, I wanted to end any contact with him, because it was an annoyance. So, one day, I requested to meet his wife. I figured that if I met his wife, he would feel uncomfortable making advances and crude statements. I was quickly proven wrong, because he started to constantly bring up having a three-some.
The final straw for me was when he began to text me, calling out things I was doing, that I hadn’t mentioned to him. As if he was watching me through my phone camera or my window. One day, he told me that the pillow I was laying on looked so comfortable. That was unprovoked, and I hadn’t mentioned that I was in my bed or laying on a pillow. I hadn’t said anything at all. Other times he would mention that the food I was preparing looked delicious. And I became paranoid that he was watching me through my phone camera. So I tapped a piece of paper over it.
I finally spoke up to a victim advocate on my base, and eventually made a report to the commander, who initially, didn’t take it lightly. She immediately said she would “counsel” him, which meant she would give him a stern talking to. I showed her hundreds of messages from him that were abusive, manipulative, gross, and violating. I requested a 15-6, which means a full criminal investigation, and she immediately denied me. Days later, he was still working happily, with no repercussions. No consequences. The only thing he wasn’t allowed to do was contact me or walk into my cubicle. So instead, he would threateningly walk past my cubicle 8 or time times per hour and just glare at me. Less than a week later, I was told I was no longer allowed in 5 of the rooms in the base, two of which, I had people that I was working with in. Why was I the one that was limited to certain areas in the base, and not the man that had been harassing me for almost a year?
I went to two police stations to make reports, because I realized that the military did not have my best interest. One in the town where the military base was, and one where I lived. Neither of them made a report, even though I requested it, because it was “out of their jurisdiction.” Each police stations said it was the others responsibility. That’s when I knew I was truly alone. I reached out to my contracting company and made a report with their HR. I reached out to the EO in the Military and made a report. I reached out to USARC, which the U.S. Army Reserve, overarching community, and reached out to their HR. I reached out to IG and made a report. And nothing came of it.
The word got around, very quickly, that I made a report, and I became, essentially, an outcast. A lot of the men on base wouldn’t even say hello to me anymore. It really sucked.
Then, I was approached by another female civilian, who informed me that I had been this mans 7th harassment report. 7 times in 10 years, this man had harassed, abused, stalked or sexually threatened a woman, and been given nothing more than a stern talking to, then transferred. Only a few years prior to my report was this man detained for stalking a woman from Illinois to Georgia because she left him to go back to her husband. He threatened to kill her, kill himself and make sure to write on his body that it was her fault. She PCSed — intentionally transferred to Georgia just to get away from him. That scared me so much, that he was going to stalk me 40 minutes away from where we worked, because he jumped on a plane and flew several states over to stalk somebody. Out of fear, and the need to protect myself and my house, I applied for a FOID card (Firearm Owners ID), just to make sure I was safe. I had a knife with me in my car, in my purse, under my bed, and in every room in my house, just in case he showed up one day.
You know what happened to this disgusting man? After my contract ended, he harassed or abused two more women in the 416th TEC, and then was promoted to Staff Sgt, and moved to recruiting. What better way to protect an offender than moving him to a place where he LITERALLY HOLDS FULL CONTROL OVER YOUNG PEOPLES CAREERS AND FUTURES? How upsetting is that? They literally rewarded him for being a disgusting pig, by giving him ultimate power to determine peoples futures.
The military has a history of mishandling assault because the soldiers that are affected face retaliation, backlash, being ostracized, and being labeled “unfit to serve”. So they just sit pretty until their contract ends. The whole system needs a reboot. But how? How can we change the way it’s handled in a more survivor-friendly way?
Think about that.
In the coming weeks, I have several episodes of survivors of military sexual trauma (MST) coming forward and speaking about what they’ve endured. I have retired SARC’s, retired Generals, and other people that just want to speak out about how military sexual trauma MST has affected them and what happened. So, stay tuned and keep checking back for these stories. Thank you for listening today and thank you for listening to my story. This is a topic that’s close to my heart. I dont’ want to ever hear about anymore Vanessa Guillen’s, because I don’t want it to ever happen again. It’s disgusting that had her family not made a gigantic stink on social media about what happened to their daughter and why she was missing, I can assure you, her remains never would have been found. Stay tuned for more episodes from Healing From Emotional Abuse, and especially more episodes about Military Sexual Trauma MST.
If anyone you know is struggling to overcome or heal from their emotional trauma…
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. I wanted to tell you guys the story of how I created my signature coaching course, the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy. At the very beginning of 2020, I was driving from Chicago to Northwestern Wisconsin to visit a dear friend of mine. On road trips, especially solo ones, I really enjoy listening to audiobooks. specifically of the self-development genre. By recommendation from a friend, I purchased and listened to The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks (link to the book in the description). It was an incredibly eye-opening book, and I kept having to pause to leave myself voice notes. What I didn’t realize at the time, was that I was formulating and basically tracking all the tactics and techniques I used to help myself heal from my abuse, while also, etching out exactly how I had helped other survivors and champions heal from theirs.
It quickly became the foundation for my signature coaching program, The Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy. The Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy is a simple 3-step method to healing from abuse from beginning to end. It follows you through each phase of your healing journey, with understanding and self esteem activities to help accelerate and supplement your healing. Starting with breaking your silence.
Breaking your silence, which is a step I’ve focused on and encouraged thousands of people to do through my Breaking Through the Silence book series and (appropriately named) Breaking Through Our Silence, the podcast (Now named Healing From Emotional Abuse); allows you to take your voice back. The thing with abuse is, it hurts us so deeply that we lose ourselves. We lose who we are, our voice and our identity. And our narcissists hold us captive even after the abuse is over or we leave because we feel isolated and alone. But we aren’t alone. None of us are. And I learned from sharing my story that the more people I shared with, the more people shared with me. And that is when I started to realize that I wasn’t alone. We will always have people who we can relate to.
Thats the beauty of sharing your story. You never know who you’re helping to break their silence. We are a community because we all are rebuilding our lives together.
The second step in the Ruhe Approach is to drop your victim mentality. This step seems to stir a lot of peoples nerves, but only because it’s a tough pill to swallow. Think about it. Who is the strongest person you know, or the most inspirational. How do they act? How do they perceive the world? Do they allow what happens to them to define them and stop their lives, or do they take a moment, get back on their feet and continue on with their lives? The problem with having a victim mentality is, you’re not taking accountability for your life, therefore, everything happens TO you and you’re not in control of it.
Don’t let your abuser keep their hold on you and control you. And when you do that, and you stop looking at yourself like a victim, you’re empowering yourself to start working towards healing. You’ll feel better the moment you drop your victimhood and become a survivor.
The third step in the Ruhe approach is to build your confidence. After abuse or assault, like I said before, we lose ourselves. We learn to dislike things about ourselves and beat ourselves up. My abuser told me that I was useless, and nobody in their right mind would ever love me, besides him. And when you’re told that enough by a person you love and respect, you believe it. And after my sexual assaults, I started to learn that my body was an object for other people to use and take advantage of. All of that contributed to my low self-esteem and confidence, which was arguably the most difficult repair I had to make. But healing your confidence is a huge part of healing from your abuse.
What is a word or action your abuser said that contributed to hurting your confidence? Make that word your new superpower. The Ruhe Approach teaches you how to do that. Useless? I took the negativity that my abuser unloaded on me and became the most useful person I could be, or I’m at least working on it. The horrible things he said and used to hurt me, I’ve turned into my biggest strengths. The weakness I felt after the things he did to me, empower me to be the strongest person and advocate I can be. What is your new superpower?
Step four is finding resources that work for you. Therapy is amazing, but it’s not for everyone. There are hundreds of other resources that might work for you. It’s about finding the things that empower you and make you feel stronger. That’s what resources are for abuse champions. Something to help you express your feelings and work through your trauma.
A lot of people tend to turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms after abuse or assault, like self-harm, drugs and alcohol, eating disorders, or destructive and risky behaviors. They are great for numbing, quick fixes. But they aren’t healthy or sustainable. They also don’t solve any issues, but build them up and make it harder to heal. Let’s find you a healthy alternative to coping.
The last step is to rebuild your routine. To surround yourself with the people and things that make you the happiest, and cut out the toxic crap. Changing your routine to be doing the things that make you feel good, change your overall perspective. It’s time to re-evaluate the people and things that you keep close to you.
Who in your life, makes you happiest to be around? Who encourages you to be your best? Who inspires you to succeed? Those are the people you should spend your time with.
Simple changes like the people who you surround yourself with make a huge impact on your perception of reality. So spend your time with the people who inspire you and who make you the person you want to be.
And that’s all she wrote. Literally. Changing your life, and healing from your abuse can be that simple. It takes work, patience, self care and determination. But the payoff is worth the work.
You can work your way through the Ruhe Approach four different ways, although a combination of all four is always best.
The first way is through personal or group coaching with me directly. I have two different programs. One is a masterclass with no more than 20 people at a time. In this format, we work together as a group to support each other’s healing journeys. Everyone follows the program at the same speed, empowering and motivating each other. For more information about this option, email me directly at me@MarissaFayeCohen.com with the subject line Healing Master Class.
The other coaching option is one-on-one coaching, where we meet twice per month and work through the Ruhe Approach, just us. We move at your pace, and you receive 100% of my attention. For more information about this, send me an email with the subject line One on One Coaching
I also have a Self-Study course available of the Ruhe Approach. It comes with guidance and worksheets already built in. You can move at your own pace and heal in your time. This is available on my website under Courses.
The final option is reading my best selling book, the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, available on my website MarissaFayeCohen.com/the-books or on Amazon.
I hope this episode has intrigued you to learn more about the Ruhe Approach, but more than anything, I hope it inspired you to start living your best life, peacefully and fully. We only have this one life, and it really makes me sad to see so many people giving up on enjoying it because of something that happened to them. We are so much more resilient than we give ourselves credit for. Take your power back. Take your life back.
I’m proud of you.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Rob: All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to a very special tag team edition of the BCP / Healing From Emotional Abuse Podcast Connection. It looks like we’ve got ourselves a little mini-series here, you know. We're talking about the #SpeakingOutMovement going on right now on social media in the Wrestling World, something that really needs to be talked about. We're having some open and honest discussions. And of course, I'd like to welcome to the show my tag team partner, the good sister and multiple time Amazon best-selling, award-winning author, Miss Marissa F. Cohen, what's up Miss Marissa?
Marissa: Hey, how are you?
Rob: Doing well, all things considered in this 2020 we're doing okay, how about you?
Marissa: Oh, no, I totally hear that. And I'm super excited. That #SpeakingOut is blowing up. I mean, like, this is this is insane. It's all you see on Twitter. It's all you see all over social media, which is fantastic. I'm not happy it happens. But I'm happy that people are finally speaking about it. That is so important.
Rob: Yeah, I think that's what we need to do. And I think what did you call it #BreakingThroughtheSpeakingOutMovement, is that we're calling this?
Marissa: I think it is Breaking Through the #SpeakingOutMovement.
Rob: That’s it. See, this is why you're here. I can do the wrestling stuff, though. So, this is a this is an awesome tag team. And before he gives you the hot tag, I think we'll introduce our guest at this time. I’m super excited for this one, someone who is super passionate about the business and what's going on in it right now. This is long overdue. But please welcome back to the show. Working with the likes of WSU super crazy wrestling and modern vintage ring announcer commentator and all-time superstar Miss Risa Pappas. Risa, what's up? How are you?
Risa: Oh, I'm so glad to be back talking to you. And Marissa, I'm really excited to talk to you because I know that you have a ton of insights into this area in general. So, I'm hoping that we can kind of bring that expertise in with the wrestling expertise and hopefully, bring some things to light that make click with some people. And maybe there's some takeaways I'm cautiously hopeful that people can learn from all of this. So, I'm really happy to talk about it.
Rob: Yeah, thank you so much for a few minutes. And really quick just to get a little background on you. For people who don't know yet, Risa. Tells us a little bit about your work in the business and then also outside of the ring as well.
Risa: Yeah, so I'm in the business I do Ring announcing for super crazy pro wrestling for WSU. I used to work for another organization called SWF, which I don't know if that exists anymore. But I've been around for a little bit as a ring announcer. I've done commentary for a couple of promotions as well. And I was supposed to have a show this past weekend, and then ended up getting cancelled at the last minute. So, like its wrestling is restarting, it's in fits and starts that it's coming back. But I hope to be back on that circuit again soon doing what I love, because I really do love it. And in terms of what I do the rest of the time. I've kind of been interested in women's issues, and feminism and all that kind of stuff. Because obviously I have a good reason to be interested in it. So, I've been kind of a you know, an amateur scholar researcher of sorts for these issues for a really long time. But also, my job, my you know, shoot job, my day job is for a non-profit focused on women's workplace inclusion and Equity, and Diversity and all those good things. And so, we you know, it's my day to day thinking about this kind of thing. And so, when this #SpeakingOutMovement started, I was kind of like, thank God. Because from my perspective I've been, every time I would go to a show, I'm noticing all these things And I'm like, well, that's not cool. That's not cool. And that's kind of wrong, but I'm not going to say anything because everybody else seems okay with it. And I don't want to immediately alienate myself. And I think that's kind of the experience that a ton of women in this business have had. So, I'm hardly you know, it's not very boohoo me like this is this is very common of an experience to have. But as much as it's really terrible, but all of these people have experienced these terrible incidents of harassment, outright assault, stalking, manipulation, coercion, all that kind of terrible stuff. At the same time, this conversation is like 30-40 years overdue. So I'm glad we're having it, even though it's very late.
Rob: Yeah, man, so many things I want to ask you so I'll start with this. You mentioned you know, women are not just saying women, you know, it does it does go both ways. You know, obviously I think it is amazing, majority of women that we're seeing speaking out right now. We also, you know, also saw Keith Lee talking about a situation where he was, I guess, drugged in a drink, he woke up in the hotel room. So, it's really crazy right now, but you talk about people not saying anything. Do you think that is because and I think Linda had said on our last podcast, they would be viewed at as difficult to work with or not playing the game or paying their dues, you kind of think that's part of the equation?
Risa: Yeah, so you've touched on a couple of things there that I think are big causes of this problem. And I really, you know, Daisy Deville — Linda, she has way more years in this business than I do. And I think she spoke really well about some of the general day to day experiences that women have. I haven't been here long enough, I'm very lucky. I've never really had to deal with the majority of the things that I've been hearing about. I've had, you know, like low-level sexual harassment. Like people saying inappropriate things to me, people pulling me into a hug that I was not trying to have with them. That's really kind of been the extent of my experience. But I'm also way older, I'm not a trainee, I'm not put under any pressure, like I can just leave. And it doesn't affect me at all. Like I would rather be doing it. But if that's the situation that I walk into, and I'm not comfortable, I'm just going to leave. I'm not trying to make this my career. This isn't my dream. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not paying $1000s to a training school, but a lot of these wrestlers are. And when you're putting that kind of situation, why would you want to speak out against people who are totally showing you by accepting that behavior that is normal, and that you should expect it? So, it's counterintuitive for you to speak up. So, there's been a lot of really great supportive statements that people have been making. But there's been just as many people making the basically like, "well, you were asking for it" argument. Which is really toxic and crappy. But, you know, that's pretty obvious. But I think that there's, the issue is that there's a huge disconnect, I think, between those little things, and then full-on outright assaults, and things like that happening. That's what I feel, personally, is the biggest problem is that there is a huge disconnect between those tiny individual behaviors that are tolerated, and no one nips them in the bud. And then that's what causes that culture of, "Well, we didn't say anything before, we're not going to say anything now.” And then it gets worse, and then it gets worse, and then it gets worse. And so, I think that has to do with a lot of things. And it creates a toxic culture, but it creates that culture of silence. And that's what really, that's why the hashtag speaking out thing like, there's not it's not it's not a coincidence that it's called that it's the fact that nobody was saying anything. And now we've reached this tipping point that people can't not say anything. So, I want to kind of just rattle off a quick list if that's okay.
Rob: That’s why you're here.
Risa: Yeah, I've been thinking about this, like the things that I think contribute to this perfect storm of toxicity in wrestling. And one of those things is assumption of shared knowledge. So, I see something happened in the locker room, I assume that other people have seen this behavior from this person before. And that by no one having checked this person already, that they know about it, and are choosing to do nothing. So now I know that if that's okay with them, then I'm not safe and that's obviously very terrible. But there's kind of this assumption in the locker room that if one person saw it, it's in the locker room, everybody could have seen it and that's not necessarily true. There's a lot of things that can happen really quickly, really quietly, that not everybody was privy to, because everybody's in their own world, when they're in a locker room. They're talking about how their, how their matches going to go, or they're just BSing with their friends, or they're on the phone or whatever it is. So, I think that people kind of make this mistake of assuming that because they saw it, other people must have seen it, and someone else is going to handle it. That's not true. The huge factor, obviously, is a total lack of structure and a total lack of oversight. I think what a lot of people have done, because WWE is the pinnacle, the biggest, the ultimate, I think that people have tried in their individual indie wrestling promotions to model off of WWE. But they also don't have the money that WWE has. So, they're concerned with making money the way WWE has. They're not concerned with all the huge amount of infrastructure that WWE has. And I'm not saying the WWE is doing a great job. They're doing one of their setting the worst example like they are not. They're not setting goalposts, that anybody should be going for. The only goalposts I think is probably capital, like how much money that they're making. That's the only thing that people should be applauding them for. And you can make the argument that they're making the majority of their money, you know, by terrible means, such as not providing insurance for their employees and other underhanded crappy tactics. So, there's no structure of any kind, like there's no human resources. There's colloquially, the there colloquially, there's a term called locker room leader. And that's a person who your kind of who kind of steps up and takes charge of a locker room at any given time, and, you know, kind of lays down the law. I don't usually see that person. In my in my time, and I haven't been in like a billion locker rooms or anything. But in the time that I've been around, there hasn't been that person. I've never really seen someone step up and take charge. I've rarely seen people be like, okay, pre-show meeting. And even then, when there's a pre show meeting, they're not talking about like, "Hey, if you feel uncomfortable…,” like no one has ever said that to me. No one has ever asked me if there was someone that I was uncomfortable working with. No one has ever asked me if there was something I was uncomfortable doing. It's always been me having to assert myself and say, I'm not comfortable with that. So, they're not asking these questions, because they don't know that they should be because they haven't, they haven't dealt with any kind of actual structure. They're just doing this very indie, very grunge, very punk, very garage, which is scrappy, and under-doggy and cute as a story. But realistically, it's like you're dealing with human beings, who can get hurt in multiple ways. You got to be a little bit smarter than that. And there is no precedent set for that. You're either in WWE, where it's an actual Corporation, or you're working out of somebody's house. And you know, booking a venue at a fire hall. It's not the same thing at all. Yeah, there's also the issue of paying your dues. I'm sure you've heard that. It's very specific to wrestling, paying your dues. And the problem with paying your dues combined with the lack of any kind of oversight, the lack of somebody being in charge of handling people, is that paying your dues can be applied to anything. Most people think of it as like, “well, you have to set up and take down the ring, you're paying your dues.” Yeah. You know, I've set up and taken down the ring before I'm a ring announcer theoretically, that's not my job. I've done it though, because we're all putting on a show together, you know, step up and help out. And there's nothing wrong with that, like, can do attitude be a team player. But paying your dues can involve hazing. Paying your dues can involve coercion, paying your dues can involve just, you know, someone just treating you like garbage. It's never happened to me. But some of the stories that I've been reading are horrifying. So there's that and then there's the idea of the; there's this kind of general, I don't even know how to say this. And maybe you guys will be familiar with this. But like the, “Chick who can hang,” you know what I'm saying? Like the girl who is like a tomboy and hangs out with guys. And she's a girl, you know, but like, she rolls with us like she's cool. And that woman, like just the general being in the minority all the time. There are so few women's only wrestling organizations in this country. So, few of them, there's like four. And so in the majority of locker rooms, there’s, as Linda was saying I heard her mention like, yeah, there's probably like four to six women in each show. Like, that's a tiny number of women. So, we're not going to make a big deal about the fact that you didn't give us our locker room. We're not going to make a big deal about that, Because then we're, as you said, “Difficult to work with,” and you don't want to hear that. So, this this whole mentality of like, Yeah, well, she's like one of us and whatever and then then its kind of becomes like, well, if you're really cool, and this is not anything that anybody's actually saying, because then it would sound like an 80s High School movie, bad guy. But like you know what I'm saying like, no one's coming out and saying like, well, if you're one of us, then you'll go do this. Like it's not it's not so overt but that's the thinking. There are things that men and others think about that they don't know that they're thinking about. And then its kind of becomes like a “prove yourself” kind of mentality. Then all of a sudden, the chick of the group has to pay more dues harder than everybody else. She's singled out and you can you can make the argument like some people have said like, Oh, well, we don't treat women any differently. And that's stupid. You should be treating them differently. You should absolutely be treating them differently. You should be taking special considerations, because women are not men. I don't I don't know that that's breaking news or anything, but apparently to some people it is. Women are not men, you need to give women the room locker, you need to protect women from men, because as we've seen in shocking and overwhelming numbers, they're being victimized. And it's obviously you know, I'm not saying that it's all men And I'm not saying that, you know, women are the only victims. Not at all. I'm anecdotally from my own experience, though, this is what I'm seeing. And I want to Marissa are you, are you familiar with the pyramid of sexual violence?
Marissa: I'm not sure exactly what you mean by pyramid. But if you start to elaborate, probably pretty familiar.
Risa: So, if you like Google it, there's like 30 different versions of it online. I was looking for them trying to be like, well, which one's the one that says the most things I like. What is it basically kind of this pyramid showing that at the very bottom of the base of sexual violence, it starts with attitudes and beliefs that people have. Like slut shaming, and bragging about having had sex with somebody, and like locker room talk that famous locker room talk, and then its kind of goes on from there. And suddenly, it becomes normal to call a woman or comment on her body when she didn't ask you to. Or follow a woman around, or like, stalk them on social media. So then, and then it escalates from there. And then it suddenly becomes like actual coercion or like what happened to Keith Lee, like drugging, being drugged and groping someone without their consent. And then it gets worse and worse and worse from there. And there is a huge disconnect from just making comments, or like sharing names that call women bitches or whatever. Like there's a complete disconnect from that general attitude problem to these horrible accounts that we're hearing now in the speaking out movement. So, there's, Men don't seem to understand that when they're sharing harmful memes or talking crap when a woman or posting a picture of her and talking about her appearance like that is normalization, that's setting the stage for further violence to be enacted on women and other people. And that's, I think, kind of the biggest problem because wrestlers are on social media 24 hours a day, talking shit. It's their favorite thing to do when they're not wrestling. Any of them will tell you that and if they won't, they're a liar. Because it's part of it. But listen, there's a good reason for it. I'm not saying that, like they're all just chatty Cathy's, like, there's a really good reason for it. They have a lot of time, sometimes between shows where they're setting up angles. So, they'll use social media to further storylines, which is really a brilliant use of social media. However, there's also people who think well, because like, 20, people know who I am, I can say whatever I want all the time, and people won't really want to know what my opinion is, which is narcissistic and silly. But every time they like retweet or share something that's rude to women, I'm like, they have no idea. They think that they're just like, “Oh, women be like that sometimes.” Like, that's what they think they're doing. And it's so easy to do it. It's instantaneous. Yeah, I agree with that share. And they're not understanding that that's perpetuating more of what eventually becomes actual violence toward women. And I mean, good.
Marissa: No, sorry. I just want to say that first. First and foremost, I love listening to you talk I can listen to you talk about this all day. You're just like, very..
Risa: I’m sorry, I've been going on and on and on. I'm so sorry.
Marissa: I'm not. I'm not saying that at all. Like, I'm actually just sitting here taking a ton of notes on everything you're saying. I want to address the pyramid really, really quick, though. I refer to that as a staircase, because it's all about pushing boundaries, right? So, if you're validated at the very lowest level, you're going to take a step forward and push a boundary. It's human nature, but abusers do it in a really awful way. So, like you were saying, you know, putting something on social media and getting 100 likes on it, and then getting a couple shares, whether or not you have a bunch of comments that are like, wow, that was a really horrible thing to say or like, you should stop saying shit like that. Those people are easy to write off because the other 100 people that liked it are validating that thought. So, then it gets further and further and further and that's how it keeps progressing. And it's the same people that like you said that start with making derogatory comments towards women or towards people. And then you know, start sharing other things that are a little bit more explicit, little by little, they're pushing that boundary to see what they can get away with until they're, you know, drugging somebody or raping somebody or abusing somebody or making awful humiliating comments in locker rooms because there's no protection in there. Like it's all, I don't consider that a pyramid. I consider that a staircase, because you can always go back down the staircase. You know what I mean?
Risa: Yes, somebody checks you and goes, Hey, that's not cool, man. And then you're knocked back a peg. And then it's like, oh, well, then I'll just go back to sharing crappy news.
Marissa: Exactly, exactly.
Risa: And then eventually, I'll push it again. And maybe this time, somebody will not feel like shutting me down because it's awkward, or whatever. And now I've gotten a step further. Now I've gotten away with more. And now I'm setting the stage to escalate further.
Marissa: Exactly. And it's a disgusting, it's a disgusting cycle, right? So, if, you're validated by, if I put something awful online, and I'm validated by 20 people that I respect, but told, you know that what I put was inappropriate by 100 people that I don't respect, I'm still going to follow the validation bias.
Risa: Absolutely, why wouldn't you, you want to hear good things about yourself, you want to be told that you're doing the right thing. So, you're only going to listen to those people, you're not going to want to listen to your critics. They become quote, unquote, haters. And I don't pay attention to haters.
Marissa: Exactly. And it creates a culture of silence, like you said before, too, you know. If I'm putting something awful online, and it's about you, let's say I would never do that, because I think you're super cool And I love your Facebook posts. But let's say I put something awful online about you. And you don't say anything. And other people don't say anything it like perpetuates that thought of, “Okay, well, I can keep getting away with this.” And it just gets worse and worse.
Risa: And that's, I think, kind of the biggest thing and to me, and I think to a lot of other women, or people in the LGBTQ community who have to deal with this kind of crap day in and day out. It's one, like I have really far-reaching vision, when I see someone saying, Well, you know, boys will be boys and making that excuse. I see the end; I see how far it can possibly go from there. I see it going to, well, eventually that person might murder somebody. Because it's not a stretch for me. That’s seeing the inevitable end, when you're allowed to take that kind of attitude and spin it into an actual physical expression of violence. Like it's, you know, what is the expression that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line? Like, where do you think that these people come from? They don't just have like a switch that gets flipped one day, and suddenly they think raping someone's okay. That's not how that happens. It happens by starting out, saying really gross crap to people on the internet in anonymity, because you can get away with saying whatever you want on the internet, because our laws in this country have like zero accountability for that. And then it gets worse and worse and worse from there. And I think men don't have that perspective. Men are really short sighted about it, they'll just take that one thing that they said and be like, “Well, what I said wasn't even that big of a deal.” And maybe it's not. But is it possible that this isn't the only time that you've shared a meme like this? Or set a thing like this? Is it possible that this is one thing in a long line of you talking trash on women and normalizing women as the enemy of men? Oh, well, you know, men are sometimes rude you know about women, sometimes they can be bitches or sometimes they can lie and sometimes they're manipulative. And it's like, your personal life shouldn't be you shouldn't create the ability for you to make such sweeping generalizations about women. No one's asking you about your personal life and it's called personal for a reason. Like keep it to yourself, and keep that perspective to yourself. Don't perpetuate it, even if you have it. Like we've all been hurt by someone. Everybody's been hurt by someone. That's not an excuse to go out. And try to say that all women are awful because you got cheated on. It's not you don't you don't get to make that assessment. I think if anything, women are a lot more valid when they say things like that. But of course, also, it's you know, not all men are like that. Luckily, we have really nice non-awful guys out there. But those really nice non-awful guys, if they don't say anything, in the moment when someone shares a crappy meme or says something inappropriate to a woman in front of them, they cease being allies at that moment. And I think that's something that they don't necessarily think they're like, Well, I didn't do anything. But you don't have to have done anything to perpetuate violence on women, because you're allowing that atmosphere to exist in the first place. Like, everybody's accountable. Not everybody understands that they're accountable. And when I'm saying accountable, I don't want men to think that I'm saying that they are all to blame. I'm just saying they all have a responsibility to pitch in and help out. That’s what actually being an ally is.
Marissa: Exactly. Inaction is an action. Right? Not taking the stance is still a stance. By somebody not stepping up. If you see something like the airport, mantra, right. If you see something, say something, or, you know, if you see it, call it out, embarrass that person. I don't care if it makes you feel awkward, or it makes you look bad for a minute, it's going to make you look really good 30 seconds later that you stuck up for somebody being victimized. That's it. Like, if you see something, do something about it. Especially the Wrestling World, because everybody knows everybody. So, you know, that not only will that word travel, but like you're protecting your posse. These are your people. Protect them, if you see something, stop it.
Risa: And I think that a lot of guys understand inherently that sexual violence against women or anyone is like not cool. I think that they don't necessarily understand that link between what's happening in a given moment, and what they will allow it to happen. And there's a thing called what's it called the dilemma of like the bystander.
Marissa: Bystander Effect.
Risa: Yeah, or like how to be an active bystander. And it's like, you can't assume that someone else is going to say what you're thinking and if you're thinking it, and you're thinking about whether or not you should say something and speak up, chances are you should. Chances are, it's scary to do so. Chances are, it's going to be awkward and uncomfortable. But you know what, if you do that now, you're ensuring that the person who is being objectified or spoken to in an inappropriate way, you're ensuring that they have been, for the moment at least protected from that person who's saying that awful thing. And you're helping that person who said that awful thing to hopefully just not do that anymore. And possibly re-evaluate and go, Okay, well, I just got yelled at by a dude, not a woman, but a dude. So maybe I should think about that. Because unfortunately, there's a lot of men talking over women not listening to women, the tone of our voices is higher, like they tune us out, they've been conditioned to, it's a whole thing. Like, I'm not trying to, it's it sucks, because men are also victimized by the culture and because they are generally more privileged in that culture than women are, they don't understand that they too, are being hurt by this. But they’re being conditioned not to listen to women. And so, I think it's really important that men talk to other men and have these discussions and check each other, but also be cool about it and just like, it doesn't have to be a huge confrontation. It doesn't have to be like… I imagine when people get into arguments on Facebook, that they kind of feel like, there's a whole bunch of people standing around going, “Oh!” like, that's not happening. It doesn't have to be, doesn't have to be that much posturing and like, you want to throw down or like, it doesn't have to be like that, you can just be like, “Hey, you know, I feel like that wasn't really cool to say, and you probably shouldn't say that, like, not a big deal. Just you know, don't do that again.” And then if they want to escalate it from there, then by all means, go have a big long Facebook argument and waste two hours of your time. But if you don't say anything, it's not going to go anywhere. You're not doing anything. Never, ever, ever has solved this problem. That's why we're in this mess because nobody said anything. And now it's all coming in rushing out at once. And people are saying like, Oh, it's, the self-destruction of wrestling. I've seen a lot of people say that I'm like, Wow, you guys are insane. This is the golden age of wrestling right now. This is wrestling, actually joining the 21st century and being truly welcome and inclusive for the first time ever. This is suddenly becoming a huge priority. Like corporate America has had this revelation. I mean, it happens every generation but like, corporate America has been on top of this Corporate Social Responsibility thing for a minute. Wrestling is just getting on this tip now. Like this is a great time for wrestling because we're actually having these conversations like this could go a really great way to self destruction of wrestling comes when people go, "Yeah, okay, we know all that. And obviously, the culture of wrestling is so toxic that there's nothing we can do about it. So hey, let's just go back to running shows.” You know what I mean? Like, that's the destruction. That's when the ship is too far sunk. We can't possibly bail it out. Now we're done And I don't think that we're there. I think we're flying high. I think that this is a great thing. Like this is exactly what wrestling needed. And I hope that I'm not the only person who thinks about it that way.
Rob: That's, actually a great way to look at it. I like what you're saying Risa And I want to rewind a little bit if that's okay. You know, I think we all kind of say like, we're not surprised when I brought this to Marissa’s attention. I remember Marissa saying, are you surprised? You know, like, you know, in the world of athletics or pro wrestling, you know, which I guess for wrestling is a unique situation with a lot of the men and women athletes and all that. You know, we I guess overall, we're all not super surprised. But Risa, you know, let's rewind a little bit. You know, we see this move in taking off on Twitter, you see some of these big names, we've been pretty good about not naming names on this and that doesn't have to be the case. But we've been pretty good about it on it on this podcast so far, it’s just kind of the way it's been. But, you know, certainly take it wherever you want. But you see some of these names. I think there were one or two, I was like, yeah, that, that checks out. That makes a lot of sense. And then there… Yeah, exactly. And then then there's some, you know, I've had people on my show that I've literally went back and deleted episodes like, you see these things. You know, I was talking to Marissa about this last time, I think he the stat was less than 4%-5% are really false of these accusations. And, you know, statistically speaking, all that. Risa, you're just kind of thoughts =when you see some of these specific names, you know, I'm sure you've worked with some legends or like you said, people, like, X amount of people know who I am. So, I have this ego, and I can do whatever I want your kind of thoughts on seeing these names. And, you know, for me, like, I was like, Oh, yeah, that checks out and some others. I was like, oh, man, like that breaks my heart. Like, what is your kind of initial response?
Risa: Well, I think that, I mean, to kind of give this a little bit of, you know, broader context. It used to be that domestic violence was not spoken about. If a guy was wailing on his wife, and she had a black guy, nobody said anything. And she was entirely alone. And that's horrible. But that used to be very normal and wrestling, in terms of being like the rest of the world is always several decades behind in mentality. Because there are a bunch of older guys, former wrestlers who came up in that world when it was very carny-esque, and very much about being, you know, putting one over on the sucker in the audience, rather than trying to actually entertain people being positive and stuff like it is now. Like, it's always been a couple of decades behind. We've always had this hush-hush kind of mentality about domestic violence. And so, it makes total sense that there would be that kind of hush-hush mentality in the World of Wrestling. Oh, well, you know, I heard but you always hear the rumors, though, is the thing. Oh, well, I heard so and so is this, and I heard this guy did that I don't want to get into any names. Because, you know, this isn't TMZ like people can go on Twitter and see it Like, there's literally like a Google Doc somewhere that has all of them in alphabetical order, with links to the actual accusations. So, it's like, you can find this stuff if you want to. If you're curious, like, you know, and this, this is a great new resource. By the way, if you're if you're a promoter, and you're trying to put on a show, you better be checking that freaking list. You know what I mean? It's out there now. So, check that list and then, you know, consult with God or whoever, and say, okay, is it worth the draw that this person has to, to hire, you know, to bring this person in who might sexually harass my roster? You know, and maybe the accusations are kind of tame, and you're like, Well, my threshold is a little bit over that So I'm going to disregard this guy. You know what, I don't know. History will ultimately be the judge. But there's, definitely some people that I was very surprised by, but every time to go back to that domestic violence thing. Every time There's always somebody who goes, "Oh, I know that guy. He's such a nice guy." And it's like, of course, he's nice to you. He's your neighbor or whatever You're not married to this person. I mean, there's a huge, there’s a startling number of athletes in the NFL who have had domestic violence incidents. It's not surprising anymore. NFL is not cleaning it up. I mean, they just now backtracked on the Colin Kaepernick thing. So clearly, they're at least 10 years behind too. But it's there's always going to be people who you're surprised by. There's always going to be people who you're like, yeah, that guy kind of seemed like a psycho. But to that, I will say, it shouldn't be a surprise. Because if you look at the statistics, it shouldn't surprise you at all, that there are an astounding number of rapes that take place, and insanely small number of rapes that are reported. An even smaller number of cases that go to trial, and a much smaller number of convictions. There's no incentive for people to come forward unless they're telling the truth. So, when they come forward, you should absolutely believe them. But you also definitely shouldn't be surprised because it's astronomical. I hear different numbers on this, but like 1 in 4, or I've also heard 1 in 3 women will be sexually harassed or sexually assaulted in their lifetime. So, when you know that the number is that high, why would you ever be surprised that it's somebody who isn't outwardly nice? I mean, when you think about all of the, avalanche of exposed pedophilia cases in the Catholic Church, like, are you that surprised? They have a direct line to God, and they think that they can get away with this. So why would you be surprised that it's a person who was nice to you the one time you met them? Like that's silly. It's frankly, silly and naive. And women have had to grow up a lot quicker than men on this. There's no excuse for men not to tune in and get, get their mind correct about this, because we live it day in and day out. And so, members of the LGBTQ community. I mean, if you come out as a little bit not straight, you are subjected to a lifetime of BS because of it. So, and from people who are otherwise very nice people. But I want to say something really quickly about the, what you said about people who were like, “Well, you're I'm not surprised," that's part of the problem. And I've said it to, there's been a couple people who I'm like, yeah, I'm not surprised. That guy seems like a total psycho I met him one time didn't like him. And it's like, you know, what, I didn't have anything specific. I didn't have anything that I could point to and be like, oh, that guy just did or said or whatever. It's just a vibe. And so, I think that if you get that vibe from somebody, you kind of owe it to everybody else in the wrestling community, to you know, kind of keep tabs a little bit maybe. I'm not saying like go Gestapo on them. I'm just saying, a lot of times you get a vibe about someone, you get intuition, you get this feeling really like this person makes me feel unsafe. And if that's the case, you need to listen to that. Because there are a lot of people who are, there's a lot of young girls and training and whatever. There are countless cases of this now that have been brought to light. There's been all these cases of women saying, “Yeah, I thought he was a little creepy but everybody else was okay with him. So, I kind of ignored it.” And it's like, that's the exact thing you don't ever want to ignore. And it's hard because you want to be seen as a team player. And you want to become part of the family. And a lot of wrestling Federation's kind of have like a cult-like vibe to them where it's like, you are one of us, you must be one of us. That's a real thing. I was only very briefly involved, but I got that vibe like, Okay, all right. It's more prevalent in wrestling schools, where it's like you should be there every day of the week, even if you're not in class at that exact moment, always be around. And it's like, if that's the unwritten rules, if that's the requirements that you just sit around all the time and just be there, then you're just sitting there in harm's way with people who skeeve you out. And no one should be asked to do that. But unfortunately, it's like, well, who are they going to go and put on the show? Who are they going to call the person who hangs around the most the person is right in front of their face all the time. So there needs to be more safeguards in place at the schools like there's insanely a little oversight and Daisy was bringing this up. When you're talking to her about in New Jersey, specifically that the Athletic Commission, there's like no presence whatsoever. There's next to no regulation. And even in states where there is regulation, it's mostly about like, “Look, you have insurance, and do you have a medical person on standby," and things like that. There's very little oversight into like structures in place, and there are no structures in place. Like well, of course, you're going to have these positions that women and young people are forced into where they're easy to manipulate and coerce. Because there's zero reason or there's nothing in place to stop that from happening.
Rob: Yeah,
Marissa: I totally agree. Do you mind if I jump in really quick So I think you brought up a really, you bring up a ton of good points, and I just can't keep up with my note taking.
Risa: I know. I'm sorry, I'm all over the place.
Marissa: No, it's great because you're covering so many great topics. So, one of the things I want to talk about is how you said the school in the schools, there's no protection. It's such a vulnerable population, you were literally it's, I'm not in the Wrestling World, the only thing I can equate it to is the military. And it's like the youngling's are the most vulnerable population, because they have these people in power above them. In wrestling school, it's the teachers, the people training them. You know, those people are the people that are the segue. They're the gateway from the person training to being a professional wrestler. There's, you know, nobody else there. So, they are perfect victims. Because, you know, what are they going to do? They're going to go to, you know, a different trainer and talk about it? No, it's so scary. If you're being harassed by your, by your trainer, by a person you're supposed to trust, like, like Linda, like Daisy said, you know, you're supposed to trust these people to throw your body in the air and catch it, but you can't trust them not to abuse you. And so that's really important to see is that the vulnerable population are the youngest people, and there are no protections for them. And so like, what can we do to create that atmosphere of safety, and seeing something and saying something. And I also before I forget it, want to go back to vibes. There were a ton of times in my life, where I was in a situation with a person or with a group of people, and I like pinpointed a person. I'm like, I don't like you. And I didn't know why. Right? And it's just, it's so strong for me, I like feel that right away. And I never said anything. And then circle back five years come to find out that person is actually a horrible person and did these terrible things. And, you know, somebody came forward and spoke to me about and like, “Oh, shit, I went to elementary school with that person, I hated them, then.” You know what I mean? And so, I learned to, to always call it out, you don't need to call it out to the person you don't like. But I'll always subtly bring it up to somebody else in the group. And I learned that way, that I've actually never been alone, in feeling the way I felt. And it made it much more comfortable for me to start calling it out all the time. So, any situation I'm in if I'm walking around with my boyfriend, or if we're better example, if we're in a group with like a bunch of people, I don't know, or a bunch of people - mixed that I know and don't know. And I don't like someone I'll turn to my boyfriend be like, hey, do you get a weird feeling from that person over there? And nine times out of 10? He'll say yes. And if he says, No, then I go to someone else. Usually a woman, I'm like, “Hey, do you feel a little weird? Like that person said this thing. And it like, kind of made me my skin crawl? “And they'll look at me and be like, holy crap, do you read minds? And because we as humans are all connected by energy, and we read that energy, and we feel that energy. And so, feel empowered to call it out. And don't do it and put yourself in a vulnerable situation, but, but talk to somebody that that you trust or talk to somebody that, you know, in a situation or that might know that person just say, hey, do you get a weird, funny feeling from that person? And nine times out of 10? They'll say yes.
Risa: And a lot of guys, I think are doing a disservice to themselves by not paying attention to their gut. And it usually takes a woman to bring it up before they'll be like, Yeah, actually, that guy's like the worst. I don't I, the majority of the time, men are not the ones to say that it's usually a woman has to be like pointing out kind of what I feel is the elephant in the room. And then suddenly, it's like, opening the floodgates. Like, Oh, yeah, that guy seems like a piece of crap. You know, like, and I think it's so interesting. I think men need to kind of pay attention to their gut more and go, “Well, wait a second. Like if, if I'm getting a weird vibe from this person, Imagine what the women around me are feeling about this person.” Because to your point, like, I don't know, the science behind it, I would never claim to have any scientific knowledge whatsoever about anything. But anecdotally, you know, I think most of us can kind of walk into a room with two people in it. Having just opened the door, and immediately know that those two people were just arguing. You can feel it in the air, you can feel a tension. You can feel it. You can pick up on you can subconsciously kind of pick up on body language cues and other things like your body is an amazing machine of perception. It is taking in insane amounts of data all the time and processing them. And just because it's not something that you can see with your eyes or smell or whatever. Just because it's not one of the five senses doesn't mean that's not a sense. Doesn't mean it's not something you should pay attention to. And I think if men kind of decided that they were going to tune into that more, or talk to women about it more, I think that they also would be in a much better position. Because a lot of the times, people to the best of the point about the, you know, being an active bystander, a lot of times like someone, they're just like, waiting for someone else to open those floodgates. And now is not the time to wait for somebody else. You got to you got to jump on that now.
Marissa: I completely agree. 100%.
Risa: Okay, can I bring up I have like one more thing that I think is kind of important to bring up because I think maybe it'll help some people?
Rob: Absolutely.
Risa: I think there's, a bit of a problem with, for men who can't maybe kind of can't comprehend that women view men as heroes. In addition to maybe finding them attractive, or whatever. And, and Daisy kind of brought this up that like, she had to go pick up somebody from DX, and it was like, oh, what are you going to go do with that guy? And it's like, what? When you say that kind of stuff to a woman are firkin head spin. Because we've all kind of grown up with media that is catered to what's called the male-gaze, I'm sure you guys have heard of this. It's like pretty ubiquitous at this point. But the male gaze is the, that the audience the intended audience of visual media is a heterosexual CIS gendered man, because those are the people who are making them movies. So subconsciously, they're making them for themselves as the audience. And we, you know, it's a gift, the male gaze is a gift for women, because we understand now looking at things through men's eyes constantly, because there's very little media that's made for us that, you know, men are looking at us as objects. The hero of the story always gets the girl and it's like getting the girl itself is problematic, right? But women having viewed all this media growing up, through this male gaze, like we are able to see men being depicted on screen and well, wherever else as heroes. So, men are trained to see women as objects of desire, women through being forced to watch everything through a male gaze, are able to see men as both objects of desire and also as aspirational as people to look up to. Like, I may think that Jason Momoa is sexy. But I also find him inspiring as like, a hero figure in like, Aquaman. “Oh, you can freakin talk to fish, that's really cool. Wish I could talk to fish or whatever. And he's ripped, and I wish I could get ripped.” So, I'm able to hold these two different notions about that person in my head at once one super hot; two, really cool and I wish I could be more like them. And men don't get that opportunity. Because when they see women depicted on screen, they're typically only depicted on screen as something to aspire to gain, like an object or possession, rather than somebody to look up to. And so, I think men are kind of short handed a little bit by the male gaze and media because it's like, do you ever see a woman besides like, maybe your mom, you know, if you're like a really nice person and you care about your family. I don't know that men can really understand that they can be both attracted to a woman and also think that she's a hero and someone that they want to be like. Like, if you ask a bunch of men who their heroes are, they'll say, this guy, this guy, this guy, this guy. If you ask a woman who their heroes are, they'll probably mention other women. But they'll probably also mention some men. And so, I think men, men don't understand that women can have two separate kind of complimentary views about male heroes. So, when that woman comes into the locker room, and they're talking about how much they love so and so male wrestler, they assume that it's the same way that they would look at a woman wrestler which is in like, a sexual way or like an objectifying kind of way. Instead of being like, Oh, she's looking at this male wrestler, the way I look at that male wrestler, which is I grew up watching them on TV, and they're my hero. So, I think that's another thing that maybe the kind of lack of understanding about that ends up being detrimental to men. And I wish it wasn’t. Like I would love for men to be able to rattle off a list of their heroes and have some women on it. And unfortunately, that's rarely the case in my experience.
Rob: Risa, I have so many questions for you really quick, I just wanted to say this kind of piggybacking off something Marissa was saying earlier. you know, you refer to kind of like the kids coming up in the army and such. We talked about this on the last podcast, but you know, on our show, we try to help the careers of these kids that are coming up. And, you know, a lot of my experiences with these kids have been so positive and, you know, I do worry about them. You know, I even asked, you know, one of them, like, how do you stay so humble, you know, I see who you roll with. These people are definitely going to be on TV, they're going to be stars of tomorrow, we want to support them. What is your kind of thoughts on like, us having these conversations now? And how that might help them? Like, what do you think the future is going to look like, for these kids? Is it going to be a lot of the same? Are they going to be better than, than we were? Not, not like you're doing these things, but our generation, I should say?
Risa: I mean, if you look at Gen Z, they're already the most tolerant generation out of all of the generations by miles. They're already way more tuned in. They like, you know, you know, they have friends who are bisexual. They have friends who are non binary. They have friends who are trans. It's not really nearly as much of an issue for a lot of them anymore, obviously, I don’t want to make to make sweeping generalizations. But I think that they're already kind of primed and ready to see the world in that better, more equitable way. The only thing that can knock that down, is the people that they look up to, that they work with in wrestling schools, and that they get into the ring with, the old heads. They, you know, the veterans. If, you know, there's a lot of veterans who spend the majority of their time and when I say veterans, I mean of wrestling, not actual veterans. But they spend a lot of their time just complaining about the young people. And it's like, you sound much older than you are, and you're also not helping things. And every time you take it upon yourself to knock them down a peg, you're teaching them that their mentality is wrong. And so, there is hope for the new generation of talent coming in. Yes, they're young, and so they're, you know, cocky and obnoxious. Like, who wasn't cocky, and not just when they were 17 years old, or 21 years old? Like come on. It's, you know, they tend to kind of get a bad rap. But that's just the way the generations tend to interact with each other, right? Like, kids these days, like, that's, you know, that's such a common refrain. But in this time, we have an opportunity here for things to get so much better than they are and for people to feel safer, and for people to be included. And for a diverse group of people to be able to show off and normalize that kind of diversity for future generations. This is all really great stuff. The people in the locker rooms who've been around a while, instead of being salty dogs about it, they need to embrace it, they need to encourage these younger talents, and they need to not make them try to feel as jaded as they are. Because there's a lot of, you know, chip on the shoulder mentality in locker room, unfortunately. And it's it doesn't just you know, just because you're crabby doesn't mean that you should try to affect younger people who are bright eyed and bushy tailed, and make them feel crappy, too. And unfortunately, I think that there's a lot of that. And that's the danger. I think that this new generation of wrestlers has a lot of promise. And I think that they can actually conduct themselves much better, so long as that talent and that that mentality of equality is nurtured rather than, you know, shit on.
Rob: Yeah, and I think it's up to like a lot of the promoters right now, and we know a lot of the good ones. But, you know, to kind of step up or, you know, the veterans even in the business to step up a little bit. And, you know, hopefully, you know, just having these discussions will all pay off in a very positive way.
Risa: And put more women in the, in the main positions in the organization. If you don't have a woman high up in your organization who's in the room with you helping you make decisions, you're going to have blind spots that you don't even know about. And that's common in corporate America, too. There's a big discussion about like women being on corporate boards and how there's very few of them. That's a known problem that they're working on. That's something that every wrestling promotion should be working on too. If it's just a bunch of old white guy sitting in a room, you're not going to be including everyone even if you think you are. And that's just that's so easy to correct just hire a woman. Just put a woman in your creative team or whatever it is. That's all it's not difficult. Just add people in, no one has to leave. No one has to lose their job. You just have to add in the voices that are missing.
Rob: Real quick, I wanted to ask. I'm liking this Risa-Marissa tag team here. You guys got a you know all the info here. But I wanted to ask you guys, Risa we'll start with you and then Marissa if you have anything just to kind of add in general, maybe Risa more from the business standpoint. And Marissa more from like the stats and you know, General standpoints. But let's just really quick, like, let's rattle off kind of like list of things that we can do to be better. We've touched on it a little bit already. But as far as the locker rooms, maybe separate locker rooms, as far as the locker room leaders, as far as the airport pickups, all that kind of stuff, Risa we'll start with you.
Risa: Separate locker rooms are really important. The problem with separate locker rooms is that sometimes it's like, well, all the actions happening in the men's locker room. And then there's just two women staring at each other in the women's locker room. And so, I think that, in addition to having a women's locker room, there needs to kind of be a space in between where everybody can kind of hang out. Where people are also not getting undressed at the same time. Because that's two totally different dynamics there that shouldn't be mixing together. If you sat there, you know, in your boxer shorts, talking to another person about your match, like, you know, things are going to end up getting left out. Whereas if you were in an area where you already dressed, or you were just kind of standing around talking about matches, maybe you would end up being like Oh, so and so is here, we should get her involved in this angle. Whereas like if they weren't in the room with you, because you're doing all of your strategizing in the locker room. So that's a, that's a thing, too, it's not just about separate locker rooms, because that can actually end up being detrimental to women, unfortunately. It's about making a communal space that doesn't involve decloaking. And, you know, like, that kind of potentially compromising action that's taking place. So that's something in terms of picking people up from the airport, I don't know, like, I haven't had to deal with that personally. But, you know, there should probably be at least two people that go and pick somebody up from the airport. That just doesn't, that doesn't seem like too much to ask. Add on, as I sent out a woman on to the creative team. Add a woman on as the as the locker room leader, like make co-captains or something. I don't know. But you need to add more women who are given authority and men that authority is bolstered by the other men that are also in charge. That needs to be validated. And it needs to be authenticated If you just say, oh, talk to so and so if you have problems, and then they look you know, demure and scared to be there just as much as you are, that's obviously not going to be very effective. You're not going to have confidence in that person. So, the whole organization has to back that person up. Codes of conduct that people have to sign that say sexual harassment of any kind is the zero-tolerance policy. I think that not allowing people to show up high is probably a good idea. There's a lot more of that than you would think, especially when people… you're talking about taking the other person's life in your hands, and you're stoned out of your gourd? That's stupid. It's so stupid. And the same thing with drunk. Like, if you have to get a load on before you can wrestle, you should probably, you know, go work on that — not in the ring with another person's life in your hands. So that's another one. I think also another really kind of no brainer thing to do is just be okay with having those kinds of uncomfortable conversations. Like get comfortable being uncomfortable, because you know what? Women have been uncomfortable this whole time. So as long as we're uncomfortable, men should be uncomfortable watching that kind of behavior from other men and not doing something about it. Like you need to be accountable as well. So, you know, we all have to be uncomfortable until women feel safe.
Rob: There's very good points there, Risa and Marissa. Throw to you, you know, obviously, uh, you know, you're learning about all these, this wacky business that we love so much over here. But, you know, I asked you before, are you surprised by all this? You know, we compare it to a lot of like athletics and stuff like that. Is there anything like you could add to that or just like, in general for, you know, organizations that have men and women to kind of, you know, make the future brighter and reduce any of these abuses or, you know, harassment issues.
Marissa: So, I'm really excited to learn about the Wrestling World. I think that this is so it's so cool. And it's much different than I, as a third-party outsider who has never actively participated in or watched wrestling, like, it's so interesting, and I'm very curious to learn more about the Wrestling World. But as far as keeping people safe in the Wrestling World, that's kind of where my head is at right now with you guys. And so, in comparison to other professional athletic organizations, they started too, when all of these accusations started coming out in like 2018, and they started taking them seriously not that they weren't coming out before that, but I know that baseball, created a program where they had a person come in and train all the players about what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior. Now think kindergarten level talking to somebody like you cannot touch somebody else's, butt without their explicit consent. You cannot say these things to people. I mean, like, very basic ground level, like, this is not okay, good touch — bad touch. And it's almost like we need to take all these people, and like mansplain to them, how to be appropriate with other people. And not just women, but like, with other people, you know? Like, you can't go and slap somebody, but because you feel like it. You can't, you know, comment on somebody's breasts that you have not had any sort of consensual conversation with, like about that with before. It just, it doesn't make sense. And it's abusive, and it's a power move. And that's all it is. It's about having control and power over a person. So, having that like, professional training about good touch — bad touch, and, and what's appropriate and inappropriate, might be a really good tool to utilize. And requiring that training be signed off before they're able to get in the ring. You know, and I know that it's a lot of indie stuff, and like underground stuff. So maybe there's no, I don't know, if there's like an authority that can oversee that. But maybe putting something like that into practice.
Risa: You can hire those kinds of you know, there are people who go around, and that's their job is they just do sexual harassment training. And there's a lot of, if you work for the state, if you work for a state, you have to go through that training, like I had to go through when I worked for a State University. I had to go through sexual harassment training. So, like, it's mandated in other parts of the work world. And I think that people kind of look at wrestling is like this fun, just, you know, extra thing that we all do together. It's a hobby, it's this, it's that like, okay, sure. But you need to be accountable to other people and keep people safe. Whether it's a hobby or not, you need to make sure that everybody's on the same page about what isn't acceptable,
Marissa: Right. I mean, I don't ever get harassed going to like a scrapbooking meeting. But if I did, like, say something. You know, it's a hobby, a professional, all of it, you need to always feel safe where you are, and the people in charge need to put that into practice. So, if you have any Hot Tips on who to contact for that, I'd be happy to do some training. I also have two more quick things, one, hold each other accountable, like we were talking about before, just to recap You know, if you see something in a locker room, or you hear something, as a, as a human being that makes you feel uneasy, talk about it. You don't need to be abrupt or rude about it, but like, go to somebody that you trust or feel safe with and be like, hey, did that bother you too? And that validation, because chances are, it does bother them too. That validation will empower you; it will empower you to speak up; it'll empower you to say something next time, knowing that you have another person that will back you up. And the final thing I know, we're kind of talking about the different generations and how, like, the upcoming generation is super awesome. And I'm so in awe of the social change. They're already making, and they're like, not even old enough to vote yet. So, I'm really excited about that. I think that embracing the change, knowing that humans are resilient, like we are resilient creatures, but we do not like change. And that's why every generation has a beef with the generation below them. You know, because, you know, for boomers and millennials, right, like they hate us, for the most part of my parents doesn’t hate us. But like, a lot of boomers don't like Millennials, because we are progressive in a different way that makes them uncomfortable. And you know what, it sucks to suck. Like, humans, humans are resilient, we're progressive. And we're a culture that wants to keep moving forward. And us and the generations below us as well. I'm a millennial. So, like, my generation and below us. We want to see social change, we want to see everybody having equal rights. we want to see all of these beautiful things to create a culture of acceptance and love and equality. And the people who are older than us that don't want that. Get the fuck over it. Like that's it, you know. Embrace that change, be resilient. You know, get that stupid old school mentality out of your head. Women don't belong in the kitchen, you know, and that's it. And embrace that and be open to it. Because if you're not, you're on the wrong side of history, and you're about to get left behind.
Risa: Absolutely. What I think people don't understand is that this, this is this is a match. This is a wrestling match. This is a decade's long wrestling match. There are no time limits, because it's been going on since the beginning of wrestling itself. Pro-wrestling vs. abusers. And abusers you lost. You lost the match and the stipulation of the match is loser leaves town. You're done. Get the fuck out. It's over. There are no rematches, you got curb stomped by women, by LGBTQ talent, by male allies and fans who give a shit about the talent. So, get out. It's over
Marissa: Risa for President.
Rob: So, this is it. So, first of all, thank you, you know, thank you Risa for coming on and sharing your thoughts and being totally open and pulling back the curtain for us a little bit. You know, we do need to have these conversations. I super appreciate it. I know you just laid down the law but you know, we do want to put you over here as well. So, if anyone does want to you know, higher Risa and maybe in like maybe kind of a backstage leader role even, Risa does do commentating announcing for a lot of these great independent organizations. So, before you know, we see on TV, every week, Risa, where can people start hiring you follow you on social media, all that good stuff?
Risa: Yeah. I'm on Twitter at Risa Pappas. I'm on Instagram at Risa Pappas. I'm on facebook.com/RisaPappasRingAnnouncer so you know, it's me. I am findable. I have a website, RisaPappas.com, mostly focused on the 700 other things that I do besides wrestling stuff. But you can also get a hold of me through there. And I, you know, I'm not afraid to shamelessly plug myself because there's also an epidemic of women, you know, demurring and being like, No, I'm so bad at talking about myself. No. I know of which I speak. I'm old enough that you can't push me around. And that's the kind of viewpoint that a lot of people in these Feds need. Feds need to wake up. Because obviously, this is a problem. And if you don't get on top of it, you're going to get left behind. So, if you don't want to get left behind, you need critical thinkers you need out of the box thinkers, you need people who will tell you the truth. And I'm one of those people. So please, and I'm very difficult to work with. As in, I will tell you when you're fucking up. And so, if that's what you think you need, which if you're smart, that's what you think you need. There are, I'm here, there are a lot of other women like me, who have been dying for the chance to make an important change in this industry. So, jump on it. We're here. We've been here the whole time. We've been waiting for the opportunity in which you will actually listen to us instead of just brushing us under the rug. So, we're here come find us.
Marissa: Listen, we're starting and we're starting to hashtag difficult to work with.
Risa: Proud job difficult to work with. Love it.
Rob: Alright guys, well dropping the mic right there. Thank you, guys, both for a few minutes and everyone. You know, 2020 is testing us let's be better in 2021. You know, let's have these difficult conversations. Let's stay safe. Let's stay healthy. Let's stay positive and everyone take care of each other. All right, guys, for the BCP and Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast we are out.
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Before I start this interview, I just want to give a quick trigger warning. There's content that is stated and spoken about in this episode that's a little bit graphic and might make you feel uncomfortable or triggered. So, just go with the mindset that there is a trigger warning on this episode. Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today I have an awesome guest Trill Noel. He is working on this amazing documentary about domestic violence. So, I wanted to bring him on here and see if anybody wants to help him or participate. He has a master's degree in digital media arts and engineering from LSU and a bachelor's degree in digital art. He's a Mongolian social media influencer known for throat singing. He's also the CEO of Racism Revealed at Harmony Digital. Welcome, Trill I’m so happy to have you here.
Trill: How are you doing today? Marissa, it's nice to meet you.
Marissa: I'm good. Thanks, how are you?
Trill: I'm doing wonderful. Just I'm trying to get this project off the ground and make a difference out there for women everywhere.
Marissa: Awesome. So, let's talk a little bit about your project. Can you tell us a little bit about the documentary, the background, how you got into it?
Trill: The background of it is that a guy basically abused a woman for a period of time over the course of like six years, financially, mentally, emotionally, and physically. And he was unemployed for the most part, while she worked as a waitress making $3 an hour. She also had two kids with him, and it possibly would have been three had she not had a miscarriage, which he may or may not have a hand in. But while she's working this job to support a household of four, he was just running around outside wanting to be an athlete, and not helping or contributing, other than working a four-hour job every day as a dishwasher. He blamed it on the fact that she didn't let him get a job. Or she was so controlling that he couldn't get a job. And I've never heard of a situation where a woman with two kids is controlling a dad to not make money and contribute. And to this day, he still blames her for that. He dragged her by her hair, and she had him sent to jail because of it. And he never let that grudge go. In fact, at one point, he hacked into her phone or her Facebook and then started messaging family members saying you need to stay away don't talk to her anymore. She deserves this punishment that I'm giving her because she sent me to jail just for dragging her hair. He made light of the fact that all he did was drag her by her hair. That's all I did. That's not something to seek sympathy for. People aren't gonna sympathize with you for that. He even told it to his co-workers at a female lead cake business where he was a dishwasher. They said he couldn't even wash the dishes, right? They had to go behind him. They said he couldn't mop or anything. And he said, well, that's not my role in the house. It's not what men do in the house. That's just typical, traditional BS. And he'd said this to a place where there were four women working who were all single-parent mothers, independent, strong women that have run a business together for years. He goes to them and says, he starts talking about his fiancé and saying negative things about her just completely bashing her and berating her, behind her back. And then you mentioned to them all I did was drag her by her hair, I don't see why that's such a big deal. Then he also said, I don't see why I have to pay child support to my two previous kids, because I haven't seen them in six years. It's like you made them. That's why you pay child support. And basically, long story short, he choked her one day while she was holding on to her, I think two-year-old daughter. And then she finally stood up for herself got a protective order against him, so that he couldn't ruin her life anymore. But in doing that he ruined her life more than she could have ever possibly imagined. Because in the process of that she figured out that he hadn't paid rent in two or three months and they were being kicked out. And then she was homeless with her two children sleeping next to a swimming pool one night. At that point in her mind, I guess life broke. You get to a point where you just feel you failed as a mother, but you don't realize it's not necessarily all your fault. And she basically abandoned the kids at his doorstep one day, probably to the mom where he lives, basically, he's living with his mom now. And he is still unemployed even after this girl passed away, so he can't blame it on her anymore. I'm sure he'll use the excuse of COVID, to say that he can't get a job. But in reality, COVID isn't stopping people in his area from getting a job. It's not a breakout in that area. But what I was getting at is the kids were left at his mother's doorstep. And she went on a bench relapsed, possibly was trafficked before dying, and eventually overdosed, leaving the kids behind with him as the only person that can take custody. So, the kids right now that he gave away, the day after her funeral, he gave the kids back to foster care. So, the kids are now in for the foster family. And he's basically putting a front up in front of the social workers to get them back. And just to let people understand how bad of a front it is, the other day he said, I'm glad that black people have something to celebrate because Father's Day happened to fall during the same weekend as Juneteenth. I don't think he should be raising those two kids with that type of logic. I don't think anybody should be raising kids with that type of logic.
Marissa: I completely agree. That's extremely inappropriate. And I know that I've made the stance on my podcast and all my personal social media pages that I am all for Black Lives Matter. I think that any racist jargon is disgusting. He has proven to be emotionally abusive by gaslighting her and blaming and not taking accountability for anything, and being financially abusive, as well. So, how did you get involved in this Trill?
Trill: One day I was scrolling through my Facebook and I saw something on my newsfeed talking about how you shouldn't judge someone based on the actions of their past. Because people have constantly been trying to make light of George Floyd's death by saying what he did prior, many years prior, not within the hour of death, but years prior, days prior, weeks prior I could understand, but you're going back years. In one year, a person could fully change their entire life. Robert Byrd, who used to be in the KKK, in the Democratic Party, came out and said, I made the biggest mistake of my life, and then he spent the rest of his life atoning for it. Is he going to go down in history as being some vile villain and criminal because of what he did in his past? Or because of the actions that he did to atone for it? And this guy was currently doing actions to atone for the things that he did. He was a great father. And this guy isn't a great father. And he's talking about this guy who was a great father. His words were he deserved this because he wasn't Jesus. He held a pregnant woman up with a gun, he wasn't Jesus. Those were his exact words, basically. So, I went on and left a comment underneath that saying, well, let's look at your past and judge you based on your past. And then I looked into his Facebook and saw what he had in his past. As I was scrolling through his timeline, I noticed that he was writing letters to his now-deceased fiancé. And I started to feel bad for him. But then I saw something where he talked about having sex with her in the afterlife, and how once he meets her whenever he dies, it's going to be on like Donkey Kong. And then another alarming message came out when I found another post where it says, I found a pair of your pants and I can still smell you on them. I sleep next to it at night. Then other posts say please visit me in my dreams at night. I want to see you again. And her sister who passed away two weeks after her for unrelated reasons she I think hadn't pneumonia. He wrote a letter to his fiancé in January, she died in December 19. On the day that her sister died, he wrote this letter, and it said, now that she's gone, I know the two of you are up there talking about parts of me. And then later on in that same letter, he starts talking about their little spot in the car where he and her had like a moment of sexual intercourse or something. So, it's like even after death he's seeing her as a meth head and...
Marissa: An object.
Trill: An object. No, I was gonna say a piece of meat. Cause objects can have respect according to this guy because he has medals that he got, participation medals because he has asthma. And he participated in some of the Spartan races, he received some of those. And in the process of getting his things whenever they were being evicted, he didn't even interact with his daughter or touch her. This is after he had choked the mother holding the daughter. He completely ignored the kids grabbed his medals and said, these are my babies and joked and laughed like none of this mattered. Didn't see her struggling or depression or the pain that she was going through, the suffering that she was about to go through. He was laughing as he took his medals and walked away leaving them there to basically starve, suffer, God knows whatever. Because you know, a man can just up and walk out of a situation. Child Support was supposed to be involved at that point, but he didn't have a job. How do you get Child Support going on that? I'm sure the girl would have probably put him on child support had she been educated about the fact that you can still put a guy on child support, even if they don't have the job. Maybe she wouldn't have suffered and had to deal with so much. Because there's a lot of women out there that don't know a lot of the things that they're getting themselves into when they get with a guy. And this guy was a complete narcissist. And to this day is still a narcissist. His friends came and attacked him when he made that Juneteenth post. In fact, some of them sent me a picture of the post and said, I want you to put this in your documentary. I wouldn't have known about it had they not come to me and that's just to say how his loyalties work. No one's loyal to him because of the fact that he's such a narcissist. Even the ones that tried to tell him it was wrong, he argued with them and says, you guys need to just take the joke, it's just humor. If you're so sensitive, get off of my friend list, I'll delete you bye, and most of these were women. So, it just goes to show the cycle of what he's doing to women, and what he would teach the son that he has with her to do to women. On the other hand, he has two other kids from another woman, prior to this one, that he still has an active protection order against. She has full custody of those two kids, and he has not seen them in basically six years. It goes to say that he abused this woman, she kicked him out and banned him. Then he went to this woman and started this cycle again. And this woman, unfortunately, met her end because of [unintelligible at 12:30] he wasn't the one that killed her, but in my opinion, he added the ammunition that led to it.
Marissa: So, what is the goal of the documentary that you're making?
Trill: The goal of this documentary is to show what a woman has gone through. But the process in which I'm going to show it is going to be broad, it's going to be out there, and it's going to show what she posted on May 22, what he posted on May 22. So, you can actually see what it looks like in our modern-day and age when someone's being abused. Because it's not the same as back then where we have no record or we just go here say. They both have profiles that are public and I actually can make the comparison of what he was talking about on that day; where he's like, we had a non-violent argument and we just talked things out. And she's on her page saying, I'm so hurt right now and I'm so depressed, I've never felt so alone. That doesn't happen from a non-violent argument. It's just saying this is what really was going on. And this is what it looks like in our modern society. These are the signs that friends need to be looking for. But at the same time, whenever I say it's going to be raw, I'm going to be trying to get women involved telling their story bluntly on camera, not blurred, not voice changed. I want people to hear the cracking of your voice when you say the story that you went through. I want them to see the pain on your face, the tears that may come out of your eyes as you're talking. Because a lot of stuff that happens with women that have been abused, whenever they come forward on a documentary or anything on TV it's blurred for their safety, obviously, I understand that completely. But I'm looking to make a story where there's women that come out, and they're not afraid. The same way that I'm not afraid to stand up against the racial injustice in my country. As a black man, it doesn't matter if I'm hidden or not anymore, I'm still going to die on the street from a cop shooting me because I had an inspection sticker that needed to be changed. Or you know I passed up a stop sign by a few inches. That's enough for them to pull me over and then I go to grab something in my car and they racially profile me and attack. So, right now it doesn't matter whether I'm blatant with what I'm doing or not. So, I feel like that same motive needs to be thrown to this problem with women. Because that's what started this. That's what started me on this process. He through something very racist out. And I approached it with the same approach that I'm telling women to use right now.
Marissa: How can we contact you or get involved?
Trill: Anybody that wants to get involved, all they need to do is send me a video recording of them talking about statistics, information, anything involving their own personal story. They can hold up a photo of their abuser, they can hold up their abuser's name on a piece of paper and light it on fire. I want this to be raw, I want people to really see what they feel. The same way that there's videos of black people burning the Confederate flag now, or statues coming down, they're seeing it raw, with the true emotion behind it. They can send that to me on Facebook, my name is Trill Noel, T-R-I-L-L, N-O-E-L. Or they can email it to me at trillguun@gmail.com. It's T-R-I-L-L, G-U-U-N@gmail.com. And they can send me a video that they've uploaded to Google Drive or Dropbox or any location because you can't send anything over 25 megabytes. And it'll be thrown into the story and used. As long as it has their face in it, it really doesn't matter to me, just so they're telling the truth, and how they feel about it. Because I want people to see it on the faces. We can't stand in silence and hide anymore.
Marissa: It's humanizing to see someone talking about their abuse. And it's really eye-opening for people who haven't opened up about it or haven't dealt with it or acknowledged it yet to see that there are human people that are dealing with something similar to what they are, you know, it's very helpful.
Trill: My reasoning behind it. And the reason why I support my take on delivering this documentary is because of the fact that whenever I looked my exes in the eyes, or the girl that I'm with currently, the mother of my child, on a day where I saw the pain written in their face, it showed me that, maybe I was being wrong, maybe I did something wrong. And I'm hoping that other men seeing this, looking at in the eyes, you know, you see it written on the face, it makes a huge difference, as opposed to reading it in text, or hearing it or seeing it but the face is blurred. I don't connect on that point. It doesn't become interpersonal anymore. For it to be interpersonal I need them to actually have their face there. I need to be looking into their eyes as they're speaking. So, when I share this on social media, and for those of you that don't come forward and tell your story, as long as you're on board with the project, and you share it through your network of friends, that's enough, that's you participating. That's all it takes nowadays is a social media spark that becomes viral, that becomes a flare, that becomes a fire. And something will happen because of it.
Marissa: Thank you so much for talking with me today about this project, and about your goals and helping the community of domestic violence survivors get their voices heard, and speak out against abuse and abusers. I think what you're doing is very admirable. So, thank you for your hard work. And for everything that you're doing to hopefully change this man put him behind bars. I don't know find him in a swamp, I don't care. But thank you for making the world a safer, more aware place for survivors. I think that that's incredible work. So, thank you.
Trill: You're very welcome. That is my ultimate goal is just to make something change somewhere or hopefully by the end of this there's like a GoFundMe for those kids or something. Or something could be done concerning this. Maybe donated to the children or the foster family that has her or some type of action can be taken against him getting them back until he has come forward with an apology or a heartfelt statement of truth behind the actions that he did. Because at this point, he has not suffered or felt any type of punishment towards the actions that he did to this girl. All he's doing right now is blaming her even after she's gone, he's still to this day saying the things you did really messed up my life now. I can't do things because of you. He's enabling himself by blaming her.
Marissa: Clearly, he's a narcissist, clearly, he doesn't have a concrete foundation in reality but that's a very typical abuser move. They do everything they can to not have any accountability for their actions. They gaslight, they lie, they manipulate, they coerce. It's horrific some of the things people go through with their abusers. But I've sent you over my video, and I hope some people listening will also feel empowered and send videos to help because I think that this documentary is going to open a lot of eyes.
Trill: Yes, ma'am. And thank you so much for having me on your talk show. The last thing I was going to say is that I've been spending the past two weeks just going through domestic violence groups, listening to women from all over the country of different shapes, sizes, colors, telling me everything that they deal with, and it's awful. As a guy, I've never known all this was taking place until this hit me. That's why this story needs to be made. How can we not abuse or cause abuse if we've never known that it exists? Or we've never understood what it actually is? It's the same thing as racism. It's like, how can this person who's racist realize that they're racist if they've never been approached about it?
Marissa: I think that's a really good way to describe it. You know, its ignorance is bliss. And it's because if you don't know it exists, or you don't see it, it's easy to judge from the outside say, oh, well, why did they go back? Or why didn't they just leave or call the police? Well, it's not that simple. There's a much more emotional toll that it takes. And you know, there's love there. And I mean, there's a million reasons. But if you have never had a true heart to heart conversation with someone that went through it, or never opened up to listen to somebody who's gone through it, you'll never truly understand. So, I think that if that's the demographic we're catering to educate and to make them aware that this is a pervasive problem in our society, I think that that's extremely admirable.
Trill: Thank you very much for that. It's an honor to work with you on this project. And it's an honor to work with these women that are getting involved with this project. And even those that aren't, it's an honor to know that I'm doing something that makes someone else's life easier somewhere. Right now, I should be focused on participating in the Black Lives Matter protests, fighting for my racial and justices that I deal with in the South because I'm in Louisiana. This is where the KKK originated. And I'm not. I'm over here making a story about a white girl who's with a white guy. It just goes to say how much it moves me. The plight that she went through is more than my plight as a black man right now. There was no escaping that. It felt like I was watching someone who was someone else's slave. But it's modern slavery. It's not the same. No one has ever controlled me as a black man. Other than whenever the laws around, but she was controlled 24/7 in the household. And that's just awful.
Marissa: I love that analogy that it's modern slavery. That's powerful. You're totally right. She was very trapped, and controlled, and manipulated. It's everything slavery and indentured servitude was. And it's still happening, but because it's silenced and underreported it's consistently overlooked.
Trill: I think this project will get some voices speaking. I watched The Handmaid's Tale. And after that, I started to see things that women go through on a different level. Because me being in film, I read that movie like film as literature, I didn't watch it for entertainment. I was watching it to see the motives going on. The director’s intentions, you know, how they were communicating each thing and what these actions meant. I think that partially made it to where when I saw this, I was able to see under the radar instantly. It's just like, we don't have that in our society where there's a group of women that get together like this and come out on the front line, saying, we are suffering, we are being abused. Here's all of our voices at once.
Marissa: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing this vision with us and for, again, doing this amazing work. I really appreciate that you came on and talk to us about it. And I especially appreciate that you're working on it and have such a big heart for it.
Trill: You're very welcome. And I hope to communicate with you in the future moving forward. And I'll definitely update you on what's going on with this project. And anybody that gets involved will be updated to my page as well.
Marissa: Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm really excited about this extremely important documentary. I think that this documentary and this information can be vital to helping millions of people who have been abused speak out because they realize that they're not alone and the things that they went through are relatable with millions of other people. If you're concerned about starting your healing journey, and you just don't know where to start, I've created a program called the Rue Approach that teaches you how to heal from your abuse in five simple steps. You can find the book available on my website, marissafayecohen.com, or on Amazon, The Rue Approach Healing from Abuse. If you need anything else, feel free to contact me via social media or email. All of that information is in the description. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you have a great rest of your week.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
Trill's Email : Trillguun@gmail.com Trill's Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/trilljnoel More Info : https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=260072521920388&id=100037529256474
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Today, I want to discuss a documentary on Netflix that I was encouraged to watch by a lot of people. I was very hesitant at first because I thought it would be triggering or too much. And it turned out to be actually the perfect amount of fact and heart-wrenching detail. I do want to give out a trigger warning just to be safe.
Anyone who followed the Jefferey Epstein story knows how it ends. Whether you choose to believe it was a suicide or a homicide is up to you. I will say, there is mounting evidence to really show that it was not a suicide. We know what we read online and heard on the news. But nobody knows the in’s and outs of the story like the brave champions that spoke out against him. The story is convoluted and heart-wrenching as is every story of sexual abuse and human sex trafficking. But what makes the Jeffery Epstein story especially horrific, is the amount of Hollywood elites, royals and public figures that participated in his mysterious trafficking ring of underage women, and how he consistently avoided any consequences for all of his actions.
I’ve recently watched the documentary: “Jeffery Epstein Filthy Rich” on Netflix, and I have a lot to say. I think it is something everyone should watch, just to educate yourself on how trafficking rings work, and how abuse of power played a monumental role in the things this monster and all of his friends and cohorts got away with.
Unfortunately, most people think that sex trafficking only happens in other countries. But the United States has one of the highest rates of domestic human sex trafficking in the world. It happens in our backyards, we just need to be more aware of it. I’ll try not to give a lot away, but I will just make a blanket statement now that all the names mentioned of alleged offenders are based on flight logs recovered from Epstein’s private island and various first-hand witness testimonials, and are, at this point, opinions. Also, Spoiler Alert.
Having worked with sex trafficking survivors, and having been very educated on the topic, not a lot of the information in this documentary surprised me. For example, Epstein, who lived in New York; Palm Beach, Florida; Paris and the Caribbean where he had his own 70 acre private-island, preyed on young women in low-income areas of West Palm Beach, which is just a short drive over a bridge from his home in Palm Beach. He had several well-known socialites as his accomplices and scouts to recruit young women. They would frequent one of the 12 local middle schools and high schools to recruit vulnerable girls. They were all attractive, relatively young, wealthy women, and they were personable and friendly, which made it easy for young, impressionable girls to follow.
And like an abusive relationship, it started slowly. They offered these girls money and an escape from their reality if they would only give him a massage. And from there, they learned about these girls and what they wanted, and exploited that. They offered them financial compensation for sending over their friends to him. So, he didn’t even have to do anything. These girls, a lot of them coming from dysfunctional households, needed money to survive, and this was an easy out for them. Some as young as 14 years old were brought to him, and abused and passed around to his friends (allegedly, including Donald Trump, Bill Clinton, Prince Andrew, Ghislaine Maxwell, Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey, Alan Dershowitz, and Woody Allen. Everyone, including Maxwell, Prince Andrew, Trump, and Clinton, submitted denials which are included in the documentary.)
Now that you have a visual of 40 and 50 year old men being massaged nude by 14 year olds, it gets worse.
Remember that private island I told you about? Well, he essentially used it as a hub for sex trafficking. He would fly his friends, these high-powered elite men and women to his island, and set them up with young women, to use for their pleasure. A former employee of Epstein who worked on the island was seen on the documentary, and asked about the things he saw while he was there. He mentioned seeing former president Bill Clinton, and Prince Andrew, Duke of York on the island. He disclosed some of the interactions he witnessed, primarily with Prince Andrew, and it hurt my heart.
But what really grinds my gears about all of this, aside from the fact that it all happened, is that the Palm Beach police were on to him. Criminal cases against Epstein at the federal and state level mysteriously fizzled out. A 53-page 2007 indictment against him involving more than three dozen alleged victims led to a sweetheart deal in which he served just 13 months in a private wing of a Florida County jail, which was approved by US State Attorney Alex Acosta without any of the victims or their lawyers having any knowledge of it. While in jail, he wasn’t even required to stay in jail during the day. From 8am to 8pm 6 days per week, he was allowed to roam the streets, meet people for coffee, and act as if he wasn’t in jail for one count of solicitation of prostitution and one count of solicitation of prostitution with a minor under the age of 18. The only two charges he got out of 3 dozen alleged victims coming forward.
There was a small group of investigative journalists, detectives and police that were following this man, and he somehow slimed his way out of everything. Even the FBI, who received reports from his victims, and was receiving insight and support from Palm Beach police, suddenly dropped the case. With all of the mounting evidence, the paper trails, the reports, and everything, they couldn’t put him away, because he had blackmail on everyone. Everyone was afraid of Epstein. Think of something scarier than one person controlling the most elite and powerful people in the United States like puppets. He got away with everything because he controlled everyone around him. To me, there is nothing more frightening than that. And to his victims, he would throw that fact in their faces, consistently. One of his victims was on the run for over ten years, and still received threatening messages from Epstein's sidekick Ghislaine Maxwell, stating that they knew where she was and that they could come get her at any time. How terrifying is that? I mean, I’ve experienced stalking, and it scared me so badly that I didn’t sleep for three weeks. And I’m not exaggerating. Think about that feeling of being followed and needing to hide from a rich, powerful man who could destroy you and your family for ten years? I mean, I can’t even begin to imagine what that woman, and hundreds of others who were victimized, stalked and threatened by him, felt.
I won’t give much else away because I want you to feel compelled to watch it and form your own opinions. But I’ll leave you with this. The testimony and interviews with a few of his survivors are so honest and raw, and so important for the world to hear. After these women spoke out, some very publicly, it sparked a wildfire of other survivors speaking out against Epstein and his cohorts.
I am so proud of the amazing people that stood by Jeffery Epstein Champion’s. The Palm Beach Police force, detectives and investigators, the lawyers of the champions who fought for justice and continue to fight for reparations for the victims; and all the people who had to continuously fight through the bureaucratic nonsense of officials being paid off and owned by a sociopathic pedophile, rapist and sex ring operator. What they did for these champions is heroic. They helped give the voices back to Alicia Arden, Chauntae Davies, Maria and Annie Farmer, Michelle Licata, Sarah Ransome, Shawna Rivera, Virginia Roberts, Haley Robson, and Courtney Wild, and the hundreds of other who are either no longer with us, or chose to remain silent. Thank you for working so hard to find and stop these monsters.
These incidents changed these women’s lives forever. The fear, the abuse, the belittling and vulnerability they exploited lives within these people.
Michelle Licata, in the first episode says, "Before Epstein, I was something else.”
I hope for their sakes that all his cohorts are arrested and tried to the fullest extent of the law. Justice is deserved for all Epstein’s victims.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, jeffery epstein, jeffery epstein didn’t kill himself, jeffery epstein human trafficking, sex trafficking, human trafficking, domestic human trafficking, domestic sex trafficking,
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. I am so excited. June is one of my favorite months because I am a pride-freak. I love Pride Month. And so, every week, this month, starting this week, I'm going to bring on an amazing person from the LGBTQ community to help me co-host tell their story, talk about how we can help the LGBTQ community with the people and survivors and champions who are abused, get the help and reassurance that they need. Today, I am thrilled to bring on Francis Wade. She's a musician and an educator. She has been a long-standing fighter for social justice and shedding light to anyone who she can help or represent when their voices aren't being heard. She's a friend to all and constantly acts as a progressive figure in education, the arts and more. Welcome, we're so excited to have you here.
Francis: Thank you so much for having me.
Marissa: Of course. So, let's get started a little bit, would you mind sharing your truth with us?
Francis: So really, it's you know, nothing to extraordinary. Been an artist, my whole life, visual art, music, anything like that. And I would say that's a huge portion of who I am. And I identify as bisexual. And that is really,
Marissa: Okay, that's awesome. So, I'm a big art fan. And I'm super jealous of musicians, because I can't play an instrument to save my life, although I try. So, thank you for being here. Would you tell us a little bit about what you went through?
Francis: Yes, so long story short, I did lose a parent, in my early 20s. And I always identified with that parent, you know, our personalities, things like that were very similar who we were. So, I was about 13, when I was in my first same-sex relationship. You know, it was something where I wasn't really sure because I was young, I was in middle school. And, you know, it ended badly, of course. In high school, I just kind of like, didn't really let that part of me live. So, when I was an adult, and I was going through all this stuff, basically, a very manipulative person, kind of got an inkling about who I was, what I was into. It was like, love bombs, like, I felt like I was seen for the first time, I felt like, I all of me was there. I felt like every piece of me was appreciated. And it got to the point where I was like, okay, maybe this could be a good relationship. I was actually on and off with this one male for about 10 years, you know, high school, middle school college, we ended kind of for good before that. So, when I got into the relationship, there was a lot of pressure where I was kind of still hidden, I didn't really want to be all that open. And that's really who I am in general. I'm a very private person. And I like to kind of keep things to myself. So, whenever we were out, or whenever, like, you know, my family came up, and I wanted to be private, or maybe I wasn't ready to tell this person, they would turn to like, kind of like this game where it was like, “Oh, well, Are you embarrassed by me? You know, you aren’t embarrassed when blah, blah, blah.” And it was very new to me. And like I said, a parent passed. So, I was very vulnerable. And I was like, well, this person sees me, and they like me. And she's constantly like showing me that. So, way before I was ready, I was basically told, you know, you have to tell your other parent. And I only knew this person closely for a couple weeks, really. So maybe about a month. So, I was kind of unsure where it was going. And I didn't want to like jump through that hoop. Because to me, I was like, Well, I don't really know where this is going. I don't know if this is something, I'm even comfortable with. Because again, it's a lot different when you're like 13 kind of unsure. And then you go to being in your mid 20s. You know. So long story short, I told the parent, you would have thought I killed somebody. And I think a lot of people in the community can relate to that. You know, where a parent or even a family member who's like a parent to them is disgusted. They act like you killed somebody. They just say “Oh, so you're gay,” this and that. Like it's one extreme or another. So first it was my family that seemed to turn against me. And, you know, I think they had an inkling that I could be queer. But what really sucks about it is that when it comes to a head and you're open about it, you might not always get the support you need. So that was damaging, because I am very close to my family. And I was never like a problem child. If anything, I was probably the easiest one out of my siblings. So long story short, that definitely put a damper on everything. So, after that, I felt like there was this upper hand that always existed, where “are you embarrassed of me?” And I'd be like, No, you know, if you were out and I saw old friends, “how come you didn't introduce me to them as your girlfriend.” I was like, Listen, like, you’ve been out a long time. I'm like, just getting used to it. And I felt like it was more about her than me. Like, my comfort came second.
So as time went by alcohol was a really big thing. I think no matter what kind of relationship you're in, same sex or not, it's a problem when one person or both drinks. So, our first like big fight, we were out. And I remember I was talking about something I did, as a musician, and I was proud of it. And art, you know, my visual art was also a part of this experience. And it was local. And right away, she was kind of talking down to me, acting like I was exaggerating. “Well, I don't really think you would do something so big like that. And you know, and I wouldn't have known about it,” and knew me like our age is, you know, there was a little gap. I'm trying not to be too specific, but the bottles kept emptying and it turned into, “Oh, well, you probably are lying, you're not really a musician, because you're also on the educater side, you're not torturing." Which I actually did tour around the world before, but whatever. So, the abuse turned more into like, I would question my worth, because any outstanding thing I did for myself, I always needed proof. But I always had to back myself up, I never could be the one in the relationship who, you know, had had accomplishments that outweighed what she was doing. And again, I don't think it's just in the community. So now moving towards the community being bisexual, especially when you're a female, it always was like, “Oh, that's disgusting. Like, you've had men inside you, you've kissed men, you're going to leave me for a man, this and that.” And I think in the community, that's something you do see a lot, being a woman who is bisexual. You're kind of seen as this, like, not fully queer character in this line of their story, or whatever. And that really bothered me because it doesn't mean that I need one or the other. It's not like that. If I meet someone I'm into, I want to stay with them, no matter what. And I think that's very common in those relationships, because she did identify as full-on lesbian. Never been with a male. That's definitely something that seemed to be a problem very openly. And even if I saw like an ex or like a guy friend, "oh, who's that?” you know, and it became very possessive to in some extent.
So, the real abuse started as summer and the weather started warming up, we would go out more. And alcohol was a huge problem, like I said before. So we would go out and she'd always invited me out with her friends. And one night, it was getting close to her birthday. She texted me and said, “Hey, I'm out at this place with these people. Can you come join us?” So, I go sure. So, I get there. And right away, we're talking about like her birthday, things like that. She was saying in front of all her friends. Oh, no one's doing anything for my birthday. She doesn't want to do anything for my birthday. And I had plans, actually. And I was like, hey, like, it was a surprise, you know, right away, it turns into like, Oh, well, you didn't tell me that. I was like, of course, that was a surprise. So then like, again, and even though I nicely intended for something to happen, it turned into this like, “Well, I didn't know about it, so it's not good.” So, we drove to another bar to meet her friends. And I was like, okay, maybe like, if we get out of this one, please, like, get some air, things would be better. So, she starts smoking in my car. I'm severely asthmatic. As you can probably hear my voice. I don't do well when it's humid or anything. So, I said, please don't smoke in my car. And then she's like putting it out on my seat, just like totally disrespecting me. And then she made a comment and goes, you know, you might try to act like the hero and like, you do these nice things for me in front of people. But I'm just saying if I wasn't with you, no one would want to date you. You might be prettier than me. You might be more educated, and you might have a better career than me. Ultimately, no one, you're just a pretty face and no one would put up with you like I do. And, you know, there was so much more that night that was said. So, when we got to the other restaurant, you know, when it's kind of like this time of year, some nights it gets cold. So, it was a weird night, it dropped down to about, I'd say, like, low 40s. And it was kind of random. But anyhow, so when we got to the other bar, she was like, “Oh, you know, you should leave. No one wants you here, blah, blah, blah.” And this was after, you know, the car ride, getting very verbally abused and pushed down. So, I go, you know what, I'm going to leave, and she goes, then leave. So, I left. And then she texted me about an hour later. And this was something she loved doing. But I'll get into that in a minute. She texted me goes, how could you leave and embarrass me like that? All my friends think you're an asshole,” this and that. And it was like, I couldn't win. Either, I had to submit to this abuse constantly and like play it off, like it didn't upset me and sit through it, when like, I really cared about this person. Or, if I did do something to get myself out of it, I was, I was just as bad. You know, I was the bad guy. So, it was like a mind game. If I was with other friends, especially females, I would get accused of cheating. And at the time, I was living kind of far away for work weekends, you know, I would come back to this area and stay there. So Oh, you're sleeping with your friends up there. And like this person's gay. One of my friends actually was pregnant at the time. And she convinced her sister to message my friend and basically outed me to find out like if we had something going on, and my friend was like, Well, I didn't know. Because again, like, she doesn't need to tell me these personal things. And to like, why would you think she was doing something with me, like, I'm pregnant, and my friend actually didn't want anyone to know she was pregnant. But in order to stick up for me, you know, she had to kind of out herself as well, before she was ready. And that's really what a lot of it was. It was control. And when I said like, don’t you think it's messed up that you convinced a sibling to like, pry and stuff. She couldn't see it. So really, it was a lot of narcissism. It was a lot of emotional abuse and physical abuse, I grew up with brothers, they always were being on me. So, you know, when someone gets in my head and messes with me, personally, it's a bit harder. And I think a lot of the reason why I stayed was because this was my first relationship with a same sex person. And I was scared that I was going to get exposed. I was scared that, you know, those restricted calls in the middle of the night, would turn into a Facebook status, because she was drunk and wanted all this build up. She wanted all this, like public attention to me and her. And that was something that scared me. And we were just fundamentally different people. And, you know, she was going through her own stuff at the time, I'm not going to deny that. But I feel like because it was really my first time with someone like that, it affected me differently. And another thing was, you know, with my friends being female, I feel like that always fell into the equation. I couldn't have any female friends. I couldn't have any male friends, because I was Bi. If there's any questions you have, or want me to expand a little more, but that was just a somewhat, but not really brief overview of what I went through.
Marissa: How did this relationship impact future relationships for you?
Francis: So, what's funny is I'm talking about how abusive it was, and things like that. It pushed me down. So, my relationships after that were very similar where I, you know, not to the same degree, it was a lot of myself wasn’t in it. I would drive an hour to me, my partner. I would not care if they hurt me. I would let them dump me and take me back when I knew I would just get left again. And it was kind of like a string of behavior that just wasn't really, I guess a good way to say it is I just felt like, I didn't know that I deserved better. I didn't see value in myself. And it was a long-term effect, where last year and again, this is years later, I was in a relationship where I was being cheated on and I even that I was like, “No, it's okay, you know, like we can get through it.” And now that I am in a healthy relationship, I look back and I'm just like, how did I not see my work? How did I not know that this wasn't okay for me, how did I let a series of relationships happen where I was being, you know, they weren't caring about me. I was being neglected. I was being ignored. I was being mistreated. And I think a lot of people don't realize that you really do reach this point where you feel low. You feel like you're undeserving of better things, and you kind of settle, is the way to put it.
Marissa: That's a really good way to put it actually, I think a lot of people, it happens to so many people, we have this abuser who demeans us, and belittles us and convinces us that we're worthless. And then we take that and run with it. It impacts every part of our lives, it impacts our confidence level, it impacts our self talk, and it impacts our choices. So that's a really good point that you made. Thank you.
Francis: And a lot of it was physical to you know, she coerce me into acts I didn't want to do. And it always was like, “Oh, are you not attracted to me? Because I'm not a guy?” And I was like, No. There were times where she would get physical. I remember, one time, I was tickling, or trying to cheer her up and just be light about something. And she actually put her knees on my legs and held my arms down and said, you know, you might be stronger than me and do sports and work out, but I could take you. And I was like, oh my God. We got in a fight one time. And I drove over, from an hour away at like, 4am to try to fix it and brought food and she just like, threw it. When you're younger, you're a lot less likely to stand up for yourself. And this was, again, my first relationship. So that sort so I mean, you know, it was like a control thing. And I think sometimes in these settings, you know, it's not that you don't know better. It's just sometimes when you feel like you're being seen for the first time, you're afraid you're going to lose that with your identity. And I also think that had a huge factor in, in sticking by my toxic partner.
Marissa: So, you brought up a couple interesting points. But before I lose it out of my mind, I really liked how you just said, the fear of losing yourself is something that really held you to her. What do you mind expanding on that a little bit? Because I find that so interesting.
Francis: Yeah, sure. There was actually a meme floating around funny enough. And, you know, I didn't really come out or mentioned that part of myself till I was in my mid 20s. I'm older now. But so, what happened was, when I kind of came out and started letting that little part of myself live, I felt like because she was my partner, because she knew that it was hard for me. And sometimes she was supportive. You know, that's the thing with narcissists. Sometimes they're everything you need, and more other times, It's like Jekyll and Hyde, you know. So, I felt like those pieces of myself going back to that meme I saw where it's like, you kind of have to select and present these parts of yourself that fit society and fits everyone around you. And you have to hide parts of yourself. So being seen for the first time, it was like, this thing that I felt like in the past, I had to hide this thing I felt like didn't exist. You know, in college, I only did in males. I didn't even tell people, you know, my closest friends didn't even know because I just felt like, from when I was younger, the way my parents asked, oh, you must be gay because you can't keep a boyfriend. It was it was like the first relationship or I didn't have to think about that. And I was unforgivably myself. I was able to be who, you know, this half of me is without anyone saying anything in that relationship. Or when I was with males, you know, they kind of had a jist. It was like, oh, you’re going to leave me for a girl. And that's something I find with bisexuality is sometimes, you know, whatever gender you're with, will compare themselves to the other. So even though she would make rude comments and say things like, oh, you're going to leave me for a man. There was also this other side of it, where it was like, Oh, well, I know, it must be hard, because you only dated men. Things like that. And I could talk about these things. And it was like the other side. You know, it wasn't a man talking about what if you were a female type of thing? It was, yeah, I know, you've only been with men. But in this relationship, it's a little more emotionally invested. It's a little more mentally. You're more locked in with sometimes with males, you know, might feel more physical. Or you might go to your female friends for those talks. So, it’s more emotional, you know. Whatever points where it's almost like you're dating your best friend, but, you know, you're both not straight. So, I would say, I felt very seen because of that, and parts of myself that I hid for, like 25-26 years were there. And that's, that's really what it was.
Marissa: I really appreciate that. I think that that's so important, especially for somebody who grows up, not in like a very supportive household for the LGBTQ community. To have that support, where you're seen and you're heard and you're acknowledged as you as 100% completely you but it still needs to be a healthy relationship.
Francis: One thing about me is, I was you know, my, my childhood could be rough at times, and I was always been having brothers. I was always pushed to be tough. I was always pushed to not cry because It wasn't practical, it wasn't rational to cry. Why are you whining? So, I think that for the first time, I felt vulnerable, and that it was okay to feel vulnerable. And unfortunately, sometimes, like you were saying. When, when you are allowing yourself to be seen when you are like, your true colors are there, it's awful, because sometimes the wrong person will see that and jump all over it. And say like, Okay, I got it in this person's vulnerable this, and, you know, going through what I went through earlier that year, or maybe it was a year before, I don't remember, but um, it turned into one of those things where it was like a perfect opportunity for this narcissistic person, abusive person to really jump in and take control. Like, it's like being a puppet. It felt that way.
Marissa: Right? I have a suspicion or a hunch, if you will, that abusers, they have like, these radar glasses, right? And they can see who's emotionally vulnerable. And those are their targets. They like to target people that that yeah, that show that emotional vulnerability.
Francis: Yep, exactly. And it first it was like, Oh, that's so beautiful. Like, you know, you're this artist person. You're so deep. And it was like a love and I always say the term “love bomb.” You know, they saw it, they see you for you, they make you feel like, the things that maybe they knew you were uncomfortable with in the past are now like this treasure they have. But then in the same breath, it's like, oh my gosh, like you can be so dramatic, and you feel too much. And then you're like, but that was the very thing I thought you liked. So, whenever we get in fights, and I will come over in the middle of the night or like, I would get those FaceTime messages, because, you know, she wanted to make sure no one was in the room with me. Oh, well turn your phone that way. Let me see. are they hiding behind the bed go over there? It was almost a feeling like it made me just free sometimes. If I was out with other friends, I would get these restricted calls in the middle of the night. And if I didn't answer, I called you. Why didn't you answer? And I'd be like, Well, I didn't know it was you? Of course, it was me. How do you not know? And I'm like, because it was restricted. There are these expectations too, where it's like, you don't know what part of yourself to be. So, what's so funny is at the same time, I'm saying how seen I felt this and that. But then it was like these mind tricks. They were so exhausting. When the relationship ended, it was about a year, little less maybe. I told some of my friends, I feel like I lost a year in my life. Because it was just so exhausting. And I was just tired.
Marissa: Thank you so much for sharing all that. I really appreciate it. So, I want to talk about your family a little bit. How does family support play a role in healing from toxic relationships as an LGBTQ member?
Francis: You mean like from that relationship?
Marissa: And yeah, so yeah. So, you said that your family wasn't very supportive of you. And that probably impacted, Or did it impact you healed? Or who you communicated to?
Francis: Yes. And I know you're saying healed, but that's kind of the funny thing. So, while I was going through all this trauma, your family member who you I would say, you know, if you're lucky, a lot of people do use their family to heal them. And their family is who they go to when things are wrong. Where, because this relationship wasn't really approved, I felt like I couldn't talk about it. It was very awkward. It was very tense all the time. And, you know, maybe there was some sort of feeling that it was unhealthy. And it wasn't talked about, I don't know. Again, I was younger, by a lot of years. So, you know, it was like this grown person kind of was with me. And I knew that was concerning. But regardless, so whenever I was hurt, or I was sad, or I was scared that she was going to come to my house and like try to pick a fight with me, I couldn't really go to anybody. So, it was really just you're alone. You're by yourself. And you're not seen. You're not represented by anyone who knows you super well inside and out. So, a lot of healing was self-healing. I could say that a lot of it was from friends. And for anyone who is in a situation like this, even if it's not with a relationship, and feels alone there are even Facebook groups for these sorts of things. And I would say a lot of it came from outside sources. And I've made really amazing friends and allies along the way. And even strengthen some of my friendships who I talked to, for the first time about these things. Because, you know, when you're with a narcissistic person, and they want to be seen by everybody, they want all your close friends to know about them. It turned into like my close friends saw what was happening. And when I told them, they kind of took me under their wing and the fact I could show them my vulnerable side and how hurt I was. I really felt like that actually strengthened some relationships and when the relationship ended, I talked to my family a little bit and I kind of felt like I was back and things were starting to feel normal. And then of course, at the time, my now ex was saying, oh, they're just happy or not with a female, like, it has nothing to do with me. So, I would say as far as healing goes, reaching out to friends, things like that, really is what helped me. And it sucks, because you'll look back and think, Well, my family wasn't there. But sometimes you find your family along the way.
Marissa: I'm a true deep believer that your family isn't always your blood, especially in situations with homophobes or people who are Anti-LGBTQ. And then they have a child who identifies as LGBTQ. Unfortunately, that's not your real family. Your real family, to me is your Heart Family. It's the people who, like you said, who have your back and who you can be vulnerable around, and who you can tell your stories to, and will support you no matter what.
Francis: It's not so much even that my own family was anti-LGBTQ, but it was really more so that it was their child. And that's another thing, you know, you can have a very progressive, very supportive parent, if you look at today's world, Black Lives Matter, you know, it's there's a lot of attention to race and things like that. And luckily, that's something we all agree on in my intermediate family is, there has been this treatment and all sorts of things. Whereas with the gay pride, my parents, they always had gay friends, transgender friends, drag queen friends, never really anything that was negative until I existed in my full self. I can definitely say to it's, it's different when it's their own child, sometimes.
Marissa: That's an interesting point. I've actually, never really, I guess, I don't have children. But I've never noticed that or heard about that, that people who support the LGBTQ community can't fathom or can't support their child who identifies that so foreign to me.
Francis: Yeah, and that's, that's another thing too, sometimes, because it is complicated, you know. And some parents, they might go to therapy, they might be very open about figuring it out, and then some depending just on their makeup, they might not. And as time passed more of an open thing that, you know, I wouldn't say it's talked about a lot, it's still kind of awkward, but I can say that it's definitely gotten better. You know, if it comes up, it's not tense, it's not negative, it might not be positive. And that's another thing too, I think is you got to give people who might not accept it credit, because at the end of the day, your family, most of the time loves you. And for anyone out there listening, I can say that it's, it's scary. You're going to have to live with what happens like for me, I'm so horrified. But at the end of the day, especially now that I'm older, I can tell you, it's going to be they want you happy. And it is an interesting angle, because you it's hard to understand how someone can say they're supportive and say they're an ally, but then their own child or close family member, it does get complicated. And that's what I can say, you know, you can't say someone's a bad person, because it's, it's hard for them to, but at the same time, you do have to be true to you.
Marissa: Absolutely. That's such a good point. What do you think that the survivor and champion community, people who have been through this, what can we do to be more inclusive, educational and spread awareness to the LGBTQ community that this happens and that we're here for you? How can we make it not as a generalized?
Francis: Yeah, well, you know, like, and even telling what happened I can definitely say there are generalizations a narcissist is a narcissist and an abuser, abuser. What I mean, but it's, it really is not black and white. And I think to answer your question, a big part of it is definitely recognizing some of the challenges we face day to day we're not seeing we're often uncomfortable in our own skin, even if we are in a relationship that suits our attractions. And I think a lot of it is understanding the different facets that come along with that. Maybe it is your first time feeling seen. Maybe it's your first relationship of that sort. And you're going to ignore some red flags because you finally get a chance to feel yourself. And that's a huge thing. And I think another thing is talking about it. As an artist, as an educator, I'm in a lot of situations where like, it could be about race, religion. It could be about different types of music, it can be about different art styles, and they're things that I might not identify with, or really relate to. But what I've found is you have to be willing to educate yourself and understand you can comfortably talk about things without it always being negative. You know, it's okay to be ignorant. It's okay to ask questions. As long as you're not making it malicious, and if you are, it's important that the person answering the questions understands people won’t always know how to ask things. And sometimes we're so quick to be negative and think someone has a negative streak to what they're saying. A lot of people say, oh, who’s the guy / who's the girl? And sometimes you just got to say, listen, liberals are both women. Or, oh, she's dating a male now. So, she's straight, right? Where you have to see people for who they are, you have to understand, like I said, there's parts of you that will show when you're in different kinds of relationships. So, I would say my advice would be to listen, put yourself in their shoes. If it's uncomfortable, it's not bad. Sometimes learning is very uncomfortable. You know what I mean? Think of like a butterfly in a cocoon. It's dark, it's probably cold in there, but they come out beautiful. The world is theirs. So, I always say like, when it comes to learning and trying to assist people, do more listening, ask questions, and don't jump to conclusions. Right now, in the world, there are so many conversations that needed to happen that are happening now. There are so many people that are showing their support for each other. And I'm not lumping the two together, but I'm just going to say the way we can progress as a large group is by talking about uncomfortable things. And going there. And it's awkward. It might be a lot. But in the end, you know, it's kind of what they say, what side, do you want to be on of this? Do you want to be uninformed? Do you want to continue what's comfortable? Or do you want to grow? And I think even for me talking about this, you know. I've been very to myself about a lot of things, especially the abuse I faced, you know, I know people had it, way worse than me. But I kind of compartmentalize it, because, you know, you hear these horror stories of women being beat, raped all sorts of awful things. And to me, it was more emotional and it would get physical at times. But I think even expressing like, why it hurts so much. We'll teach people a lot. And everyone has a different story. So, I think even if you don't feel like it's worth sharing, just share it. Because people can relate to you. And I would say that's the biggest thing is just have these conversations And listen.
Marissa: That's one of the things that I really love to share is you never know who's listening. So, like, share your story, talk about what happened to you, because you could be helping somebody without knowing, and that we grow in discomfort, I really appreciate that you brought that up.
Francis: It's true, you know, and especially as an artist. You have to put yourself out there and sometimes there's parts of yourself you're so proud of and you want recognition for what you created, or what you presented to the world. And people you know, they don't bat an eye at it. And other times when you're not even trying your hardest, they see you and that's all it can take is just like one little thing. For me even just being able to talk about it. If one person listens to this, and it's like, oh, wow, she made a good point. Even if it's something dumb, I said, that's really what it's about is just don't be afraid to be there for people.
Marissa: Thank you so much for sharing all this amazing information. You're so insightful and so inspiring. And I appreciate you being here. Thank you so much, Francis, your insight was incredible. And I'm sure you're going to help a ton of people. Happy Pride and we'll chat next week.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. The past few weeks in this country, have been devastating and heart wrenching for me, a person of privilege, so I can’t begin to imagine or understand what the African American community is feeling right now. My heart is with you. You have my support, my love and my voice.
Today, I wanted to focus on this particular community and the issue of racial disparity in sexual assault. I’ll try not to be overly political, although I feel strongly about my beliefs, especially as it relates to the Black Lives Matter movement. I understand and recognize that everyone is entitled to their opinions and political alignments.
Being sexually assaulted isn’t better or worse for anyone, but the risks, frequency, resources available, and reported cases are very different. For African American women, sexual assault and violence are incredibly pervasive issues that routinely go unreported and under-addressed.
Hypersexualized depictions of women of color, have functioned since the early 1400s and have manifested themselves through our political and cultural landscapes for centuries. The myth that Black women were vessels for sexual desire were used to justify enslavement, rape, forced reproduction, and other forms of sexual coercion in the early onset of Western colonization.” (NOW.org)
“Stereotypes regarding African American women’s sexuality, including terms like (forgive me for saying this), ‘Black jezebel,’ ‘promiscuous,’ and ‘exotic,’ perpetuate the notion that African American women are willing participants in their own victimization. However, these myths only serve to demean, obstruct appropriate legal remedies, and minimize the seriousness of sexual violence perpetrated against African American women.” Women of Color Network,
Look at sexual predators like R. Kelly. His undeniable, abusive and sexual misconduct with young black women was publicized with a documentary of the survivors crying and telling their stories, and yet, those women still don’t have justice. Why? Why is it that hundreds of young black minors throughout his career that were harmed, kidnapped, raped and forced into sexual slavery, came forward and spoke their truth and yet, nothing was done? However, Harvey Weinstein, who primarily attacked young white women who were generally over the age of 18, was charged and convicted within a year and a half. I’ve been following the R. Kelly story for a long time. And the fact that he has not been brought to court yet shows the discrimination between the value of white assault victims and the value of black assault victims.
I’ve been reading articles and citing research specifically on rape statistics for people of color, and the statistics are jarring. Here are a few that really jumped out at me:
According to the National Center on Violence Against Women in the Black Community
- For every black woman that reports rape, at least 15 black women do not report.
- 35% of black women experience some form of contact sexual violence in their lifetime. (CDC)
- African American girls and women aged 12 years and older experienced higher rates of rape and sexual assault than white, asian and Latina girls and women.
- 40% of confirmed sex trafficking survivors in the US are black.
- Many cultural considerations can hinder healing for black women survivors: the burdensome expectation of strong, black womanhood; the power of the black church; the desire to shield black men, and the lack of self-care resources.
From the Maryland Coalition Against Sexual Assault:
- 40-60% of black women have been subjected to coercive sexual contact by the age of 18. That means while they’re minors. Child abuse. Child molestation.
- A study found that college students perceived a black victim of sexual assault to be less believable and more responsible for their assault than a white victim.
- That’s disgusting. And that is a mindset change that needs to take effect immediately. How can we change the perception by educated people that all victims, regardless of skin color, are never to be blamed for their abuse? What ideas do you have?
The institute for women’s policy research reported that: More than 20 percent of black women are raped during their lifetimes — a higher share than among women overall.
How horrible is this?
And, I also want to point out that there was very limited research on male survivors of color. I don’t know if that’s an interest issue, a funding issue, or a reporting issue, but I find it bullshit that in 2020, we still paint males, especially African American males as only perpetrators. They are more likely to be convicted of rape and abuse than white men, and their sentences are longer — even if they are innocent. But to not even research male POC as victims outside of the LGBTQ community, is garbage.
For 27 stories of male survivors, grab my book, Breaking Through the Silence: #Me(n)Too. It’s available on my website: www.marissafayecohen.com/the-books and Amazon. In that book, there are several people of color that come forward and speak about their abuse. So we know it happens.
Because of African-American’s unique history of racist and sexist victimization, the black community has an even harder time than others dealing with rape. This prevents survivors from getting help and our community from addressing the issues effectively.
Some African American women’s decisions not to report their sexual assaults may be influenced by the criminal justice system’s history of treating European-American perpetrators and victims differently than perpetrators and victims of color. — From the Women’s Institute for Leadership Development for Human Rights
This isn't just a matter of excessive force. It’s a matter of systematic, justified racial profiling, that allows an entire group of people to be ostracized and fearful of the people who pledge to protect and serve our nation. I might be alone here, but that’s not okay with me. If you take an oath to protect and serve, that means everyone. We need to rally together, snuff out the “bad apple” cops as they are so politely titled, and reform the “brotherhood, boys club” mentality of good people being silenced have room to speak out and hold their brothers and sisters in uniform accountable for their bad actions.
I’m certainly no expert in the Black Lives Matter movement, or what the community feels would be the most effective and helpful way to engage and participate.
(SIDENOTE: if anyone has any additional insight, please feel free to contact me. I want to do whatever is needed to help), but here are some ways that you can help female POC survivors of sexual assault.
There are policies to address sexual violence such as the Violence Against Women Act, but partisan politics are currently preventing its reauthorization. What we don’t have is a critical mass willing to enforce these policies. Center black women in the narrative, and act. To enforce these policies, we can write letters and call our local & state representatives and encourage them to protect survivors. Center black women in your advocacy. Contact your elected officials and share this data. Ask them what they are doing specifically to improve the sexual violence experienced by black women. Ask them to reauthorize the Violence Against Women Act.
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Become an informed ally. Consider reading more books by black women scholars who are writing about the daily lived experiences of black women, including sexual violence. Sheena Howard, author of Nina’s Whispers who was on the show a few weeks ago, spoke about her experiences and wrote a fictional book about a POC in the LGBTQ+ community who was abused.
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Support organizations that work on behalf of black women in your area. This may require you doing some research, talking with black women and allowing them to tell you what they need.
Here are a few organizations to look into:
- Black Women’s Blueprint https://www.blackwomensblueprint.org/
- Rights 4 Girls https://rights4girls.org/
- Sister Love https://www.sisterlove.org/
- Incite National https://incite-national.org/
- YWCA https://www.ywca.org
- A Long Walk Home http://www.alongwalkhome.org/
- Trans Women Of Color Collective https://www.twocc.us/
This episode might deter people from reaching out to me for help with healing from emotional abuse, and that’s okay with me. Everyone deserves the feeling of safety, happiness and opportunity. That way, if anyone chooses not to take the opportunities, which is something I’ve been hearing a lot of lately, it falls on them. And the statistic of 70% of African Americans born into poverty stay in poverty, won’t be based on education, lack of opportunities and blatant racism.
What does justice look like to you?
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
narcissist. narcissism. overcoming narcissism. toxic relationship. toxic people. ways to heal. how to heal from emotional abuse. living with a narcissist. good friends. healthy relationship. intimate partner violence. intimate partner relationship. healthy relationships. self love. confidence. self esteem. low self esteem. self esteem activities. confidence exercises. breaking through the silence. what does emotional abuse do to you. what does it mean to be narcissistic. what being with a narcissist does to you. what emotional abuse does to you. learning how to trust myself again. i trust myself. i only trust myself. in myself i trust. trust myself. Can you heal from abuse?. What do I do after leaving my narcissist. What does a healthy relationship look like. BLM. Black Lives Matter. Black Lives Matter movement. blm movement. sexual assault against African American women. Black assault victims. black assault survivors. black assault victims. male POC survivors. trauma in the black community. African american trauma. historical trauma african american. historical trauma slavery. trauma in the african american community. african american community historical trauma. black trauma.
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today, I'm so excited to talk to my amazing, beautiful brilliant friend, Orsika, who is not only in the process of writing a phenomenal book, but we are working on a program together, (which we'll get a little more into in a couple minutes) to work with survivors and their family units. Orsika is a strong, amazing, brave advocate and survivor and champion of her voice who overcame so many incredibly difficult obstacles and put an entire family back together all by herself. I'm so honored to call her my business partner and my friend. Welcome Orsika, thank you so much for joining us today.
Orsika: Absolutely. My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Marissa.
Marissa: Oh, of course. Would you mind speaking with us about your truth?
Orsika: No, that's totally fine. I'm so happy to share, because I know that sharing my story helps other people heal. And it's taken me a really long time to understand that and really, truly grasp that through my story, other people can heal. Because when you're in a narcissistic relationship situation, you definitely feel alone, and your friends who are surrounding you and have been supportive of you your entire life, or even just for the past few years, if they've never been there, they don't know how to support. So, then you have to look for support outside of your comfort zone, which is so incredibly difficult. So, you know, for your listeners, just know that you are not alone, we are here to help you. We are here to support you. We are here to love you when you're ready to be loved again. And that's a hard concept too.
But anyway, that's all a precursor to say we were married. I was married to my abuser, and he was your stereotypical narcissist. And it was definitely a difficult situation, we were there for four years, he was verbally abusive at first, and then proceeded on to other things. And when he took it upon himself to take what I wasn't willing to give him, then I decided we needed to flee. And so that's what we did. And that's been, we'll celebrate nine years of freedom in July of this year (2020). And I'm super excited. Our family dynamic has changed, of course, for the better in that nine years. The children have grown up, and I have healed and have forgiven. And it's you know, it's all a time thing. And it's all, "Are you willing to forgive not for their benefit, but for yours?” That's, that was a really foreign concept to me in the beginning. But I realized that forgiveness is 100% for me, not for the narcissist.
Marissa: I'm so happy you brought that up. Because you're right. Forgiveness is so important. And it's super overlooked. Some people feel like it's a religious thing. But really, you're doing nothing but helping yourself by forgiving. You're never forgetting, you know, you don't forgive and forget, you just forgive. And you remember and learn. Right?
Orsika: Right? They say that you forgive or forget. But if you forget, then you're going to repeat it again and again and again.
Marissa: Exactly.
Orsika: Why would you want to do that? Why would that even cross somebody's mind that they're like, “Oh, please put me in another abusive situation. I just got out of one. Yeah, hook me up with that for the rest of my life.” Now, I fully understand that the mentality of the degrading words that are said to you. How they get into your brain, I consider myself a somewhat intelligent human being. And even he was able to manipulate me to think that I was less than that. And so all that to say, I understand fully firsthand how women and men feel like that's all their worth is going from one narcissist to another to another. But I'm here to tell you and your listeners that that's not the reality of your life, that it has to be right. So, you can choose to not allow that in your life. It's hard. It's hard as heck, it's really, really challenging. But you can make those choices and you can start to slowly understand that you're worthy of more than emotional abuse.
Marissa: Right. I think another part of it is getting stuck in that cycle. You get so used to your routine. And so natural, healthy, nontoxic love doesn't seem like love anymore, because I rain is so rewired to think that love is being abused love is being manipulated in so many words, you know?
Orsika: Right, right. And especially the younger listeners, right? So, if it's a first boyfriend or a second boyfriend, you know, you've gotten this solid, unconditional love, hopefully from your parents hopefully. So that's the love that you know from your parents and from your family, if you were raised in a healthy environment, and then you wonder how did I get into this abusive situation? But if it's a younger relationship, you kind of go, “Oh, this is what it must be like to be dating somebody. So, this is the norm.” And nobody talks about it. So, nobody really knows that that's not the norm. So, for the younger listeners, yeah, you might very likely think this has gotta be the norm.
Marissa: Right? I love that. You said that when I was in high school, we had a, an assembly about loveisrespect.org. And it was all about teen dating violence and how your first relationship really sets the standard for your future relationships. And if your first relationship was abusive, like mine was, it set the standard pretty low, for what to accept from love; From a partner. And it's so different from your unconditional parental love, if you had that at home, if you have a healthy home life, because you're looking for different things. And you know, you're an adult in a relationship, even if you're 16, and want very different things. I'm really happy you brought all that up. So, one of the things that I truly love about you is your humongous heart. And you are doing so much work, and creating so many things, and avenues and resources for survivors to tell us a little bit about what you're doing.
Orsika: You're going to get me crying on the phone. Wow, that was really powerful! Thanks Marissa. And it's so funny, and I'm literally in tears right now, I wish you could see my face, but I'm literally in tears right now. Because it has been a heck of a journey, people. Like it's, you know, if you would have told me five years ago, that I would have been a domestic abuse advocate, I would have laughed in your face, and then gone home and cried, because that means I have to admit that I have been domestically abused. And that was hard. Because I was raised in a very healthy environment. And the abuse was my second marriage And so I was in a, you know, you can call it a loving relationship, it just was a lack of communication. So that's why the breakdown of the first relationship. But I would have never thought that as a single mom of two, I would get in a situation where I would be abused emotionally, mentally, and then physically right. And so now, I'm passionate about it. Because you don't have to be the 16-year-old who has the first boyfriend and then sets the tone. You can be that single mom who has had somewhat healthy relationships, and all of a sudden, this narcissist, you know, preys on you.
So, what I'm doing now with every thing that I've learned and everything that I've overcome, and everything that I've championed through, I have a book that's at the publisher should be coming out in July; I have a program that I'm setting up for single parents, and for dual parent households for helping the moms and dads who are single-parents overcome abuse, and getting out of survival mode and learning to live life, again. And for the parents who are also helping their child who has been abused by either a stranger or a family member. More often than not, it's a family member. But you know, I had to help my son, you don't know. So that's why I'm telling you, I had to help my son overcome his abuse and the girls who are older than he is, I helped them heal from it as well, even though they weren't affected by it nearly as much as he was.
So, I have a book coming out I'm working on this program for single parents to deal with it, for dual parent households to deal with it. And then Marissa and I are working on a program as well, which she can fill you in more so that you can hear some from her too.
Marissa: Our program, I think is really, really cool. Because it's not just healing one aspect of the family or one aspect of the abuse. Abuse, and assault affects the whole family unit. Even if they weren't directly involved. I can only speak for my experience. But when I was in my abusive relationship, the way I acted out and lashed out affected my family and the way that he treated me affected my family because it affected me. And so, as a family unit we needed to heal. And I think so many programs overlook that aspect that my mom needed to heal. My mom, I remember having fights with her because she wanted to send my abusers mama letter, telling her everything that he did to me. And that was before I recognized it. That was her way of needing to heal And I wasn't letting her do that. So, I want to work with Orsika, because I think you're brilliant, to create a program using her expertise which is healing the family and mind healing the person. And then the whole family unit is now in a healthier mental state.
Orsika: Right and Marisa really opened my eyes and that's a great way to describe the program that we're working on. Thank you for that. Marissa did a fabulous job opening my eyes to, because I was in survival mode for so long and because I was a single mom of now three children to help heal. So there were four of us but the healing process was solely on my own shoulders. And Marissa helped me realize that, “Oh my gosh, my mom, my dad and my brother and sister needed to heal from my abuse too.” You know, just because you're an adult, so Marissa’s abuse situation was when she was still living at home, right? So, I didn't as an adult, even consider that my mom, dad, and siblings needed to heal from my abuse, like that was because I was so focused on my immediate family, myself and my three children. It was just so far fetched to think, “Oh, my gosh, my mom went through stuff, too. And my dad, though he's quiet, he went through stuff too. And my brother and sister helped me.” It's really eye opening. And that was such a huge “aha” moment for me to be like, “Oh, I forgot about them.” And it's okay, folks. It's okay to forget as an adult about your extended family, who was your immediate family because you're in survival mode. So, forgive yourself It’s okay. But just realize that, yes, mom, dad and siblings, aunts, uncles, grandparents, whomever you're close to, they need to heal through your abuse as well, your situation as well.
Marissa: I love that. I think it's so important to, yes, heal yourself, heal your immediate family, heal the people that are in your direct circle, but also branch out and let your loved ones who may also be affected know that they're supported, and you'll all heal together.
Orskia: Yeah, it's huge. It's huge. Yeah,
Marissa: I didn't know how affected my brother was until a couple of years later, when he had finally told me how much he hated my narcissist for what he did to me. And you could really see that it was he was passionate. And up to that point, me and him weren't that close. That was a true eye opener, I didn't realize how effective he was as well.
So, I know that you mentioned you're writing a book, and it is in the publishers and we will send out more information about that when we have more information. What advice would you want to give to survivors and parents of survivors and families to help them through their crisis.
Orsika: So huge, huge, huge, first and foremost, as the family and the parents of the survivor, let the survivor the champion, the one who got away, know that they are loved, and that they are not alone. Because it's so hard, especially when you're living on your own and you're raising children, it's so hard to, to think of anybody loving you, because you've just gotten out of the situation. And I know for a fact that your immediate family should on paper love you, Right? And they may not say it, and they may not know how to even express it after you've gotten out of that situation, right? But as family members, just show that love and if that means. Lets say you look at your child, and you're like, wow, you're a moron for allowing this to happen to you. Please don't ever say that, like the child already, your adult child already knows this was not the best choice in their life. They had a lesson to learn. Hopefully, they learned it. So if you can't, for some reason, if you're incapable for some reason, to be able to communicate positively with your child, then don't communicate with them, verbally. Communicate with them through actions, buy them groceries, offer to buy them tires, offered to pay for part of their electric bill, pay the electric company directly so that you know that your human is using it for that, you know, that's definitely a recommendation. But show support in action, if you are lacking the ability to support in a positive verbal way. Because the last thing that the abuse person needs is more verbal abuse, because that will 100% make sure that they shut down and share 0% of their life with you. So as family members show support in the way you know how, in the best way you know how. And if you are lacking in figuring that out if you need support, and that by all means reach out to either one of us, and we'll be happy to help you through that situation. Because it's just rewarding things. You know, instead of like, “Wow, honey, you really screwed up.” You could just be like; "I know you're in a bad spot. Let me send you five bucks. So, you can take the kids or yourself for ice cream. Or buy yourself a Starbucks or you know, whatever.”
Marissa: I love that advice. Thank you. And just to kind of snowball off of that. If you're not comfortable having like a conversation with this survivor, A lot of the time, we don't even really want advice. We just want to and the best thing that you can do. Aside from paying our electric bill, mom. Just be there, you know, be a silent person to hold their hand and let them talk. And I want to talk and they don't ask for advice. Don't give advice. Just don’t. Just let them talk it out. They just want to have their moment where they can let all real lease everything. So that's another option you can either pay their electric bill by on groceries or just be there. Just having a presence there is so beyond meaningful. I really can’t put it into words.
Orsika: Yeah, it is and it when you're showing up to your survivors, homestead, bring their favorite treat. Because realistically, they don't even think about it. Bring the Pop Tarts, okay, they're the least healthy thing you can give them, who cares? Then bring the Twinkies It doesn't matter. Bring them honey, something that they won't buy for themselves because they don't think that they're deserving of it. Bring their favorite childhood treats and let them come back to that childhood happy place.
Marissa: I love that. Chocolate’s always a winner with me.
Orsika: I mean sure.
Marissa: Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate you and working with you and everything that you said. You're just brilliant and I adore you. And I'm so excited for your book to come out. And I'm excited to finish our program which I will put more info in the description when we have it. And your single parent guide, I think will be really amazing. I'm very excited for that as well.
Orsika: I am to thank you so much for having me this is just a blast anytime with Marissa is always good and uplifting. So, for you listeners if you want uplifting, Marissa is your girl because she does it. She does it well.
Marissa: Oh, thank you. You're going to make me cry.
Orsika: Good.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today, I'm thrilled to be introducing our inspirational guest. The incredible, Jack Canfield, America's number one success coach and the New York Times bestselling author of the Chicken Soup for the Soul® series and The Success Principles. Jack Canfield has inspired millions of people worldwide to take control of their lives, and he's here today to tell us exactly how to do that and even better how to join our team. Hi, Jack Canfield! Thank you so much for being here.
Jack Canfield: My pleasure to be with you. Thanks for inviting me.
Marissa: Oh, of course. So, one of the things that you like to talk about in your seminars is your childhood experiences. So, are you comfortable sharing a little bit about what you endured as a child?
Jack Canfield: Sure, no, no problem. I grew up in West Virginia, primarily. My first father was in the Air Force, and he was an alcoholic. He got very violent when he drank. And my mother was someone who gave into that.In other words, she was not real protective of me. And I don't blame her for that, you know, he was violent with her as well. So I got hit a lot as a child. I got threatened a lot. I don't have a lot of memories. I think I probably suppressed them. Some come back in therapy in different times in my life.
I can remember one night where and he said he was standing in the doorway of my bedroom, and he had a 45 pistol - the kind that the military gives you. And he said, “If you don't stop crying, I'm going to shoot you.” And I mean, that was, you know, emotionally pretty scary. We used to have these old radios if you’ve ever seen him in a movies. They came up about this high, and they go down to the floor, and it looks like just a little dial. And then there's a big console below where it was mostly hollow, like a big piece of furniture. When he drank, I used to go in there and hide,when I was small enough. When my dad was drinking, if he found me there, he usually had a belt, he would take his belt out and you know, just go crazy.
So, I became what's called hyper-vigilant. Most people that have been abused are hyper vigilant. You notice little things, like, if an ashtray is off by three inches on the table, that might upset my dad. The benefit of that is a maybe a good point guard and basketball. And he made me a good end, I could fake see where things were happening. I had great peripheral vision and knowing what was going on, but it also left me very anxious. Always on edge, you know? And it's taken a long time for me to get beyond that. I have through therapy and Young Living Essential Oils, lots of different things I've used in my life. But it was I was always on edge. Now my mom divorced my first father when I was about six and we went to live with my grandmother for a number of years. And so, the violence stopped. But then my mom married my stepfather. And my stepfather was a big spanker, as well.
I remember one day, there was a movie I wanted to go see. I think it was like 11, and I wanted to go see this movie. I'd seen the preview and it looked like a really cool movie about Jim Thorpe. He was the first Native American professional football player or college football player, whatever it was, and I just liked the preview. And so that Saturday, we were supposed to go to a picnic and I knew all the adults were just going to drink and get drunk and I didn’t like some of the other kids that much - they were the daughters and sons of some of my parent’s friends who were also alcoholics. So, I snuck out of the house, I went down to this park where I could pump water, there was an old pump. And these women who were more into holistic health, they would bring these gallon apple cider jars and I would pump water in them and I'd carry them to their house and they’d give me a nickel. And back then the movies only cost 20 cents. And you could buy a candy bar for a nickel and popcorn for a dime. And so I made about 40 cents and I went to the movie. So, I'm about 20 minutes in a movie and I hear over the loudspeaker, “Will Jack Canfield Canfield please report to the box office.” I thought oh my god, that's got to be my dad because he knew I wanted to go that movie. So, there was an exit door in the front of the theatre, which I figured I'll just sneak out of there and my dad won't see me and I snuck out the exit door and sure enough, there is my dad at the exit door. He took me home made me pull my pants down, took out a hairbrush - I remember the back of it, you know which is big, long plastic part and just whip the hell out of my butt. And I remember I refused to cry. I was not going to give him the satisfaction of seeing me cry. And it was only last November. I was in a seminar down in Ecuador. And I actually cried and I think I had suppressed my crying since I was 11. I'm 75. And finally, I let that out. And I all these tears came, I didn't cry when my mother died. I didn't cry when friends of mine had died. It was always like very spiritual, they're just going into another dimension, you know. And so, I think that was another cost, if you will, of my childhood physical abuse.
Marissa: That's so common. And thank you so much for sharing all of that. I feel like the experiences you have really, really shape you. Like you said, it caused your anxiety and it, you know, walled off your, I don't know, ability to feel but like your willingness to show emotion to grief. Right?
Jack Canfield: Right. To be that vulnerable. Yeah. Yeah. Be out of control in a sense. Yeah,
Marissa: Exactly. That's the thing, we lose control of us of our bodies in our surroundings. So, we grab for control everywhere, and anywhere that we can get it. So, thank you, again, so much for sharing that story. What I really love about you as a human being, but also your story is that from what you've gone through, you were able to build yourself back up into this complete and strong and inspirational human being that just wants to give back. So, do you mind telling us a little bit about you writing Chicken Soup for the Soul and the Success Principles and becoming the successful person that you are?
Jack Canfield: Well, it all started when I became a high school teacher back in the 1970s. And I literally became more interested in why my students weren't motivated to learn than I was in teaching history. And so, I started looking at motivation. How do you motivate people? How do you make them believe in themselves, self esteem, things like that. And eventually, I became a teacher of the year and then I started teaching other teachers. And then I started what I realized its, and why this is relevant was, when I was a teacher, when I was telling a story to the students what it was about something that happened in my life that weekend, or something had happened in the life of an African American, (I was teaching in an all-black school), some African-American and American history, like George Washington Carver or Booker T. Washington, or Frederick Douglass, he was the first black ambassador to Jamaica, he was an escaped slave. And you know, so anyway, I tell these stories, and the kids would be absolutely on the edge of their seat.
And then when I was teaching historical facts, you know, the seven causes of the Civil War and the three exports, that they weren't, they didn't care. And so I early on, learned that stories were very powerful. And so, all through my teaching, whether it was teaching teachers teaching the general public, I would use stories to illustrate the principles that I was teaching. And remember, there was about a 30-day period where every talk I gave someone would come up to me and say, their story about the puppy, you said that story about the Girl Scout has sold $3000 in Girl Scout cookies, send the book anywhere my daughter needs to read it, my staff needs to hear. And I would say no. And it was like, you know, bang, bang, bang, the universe was telling me put the stories in a book. So, I remember I was coming home on a flight from Boston one night to LA where I was living at the time. I live in Santa Barbara now about 90 minutes north. And I was like, just, well, how many stories do I know? So, I started listing them all, you know, like the boy scout story, the Kilimanjaro story, the puppy story. And I had about 70 stories. I thought, well, that's enough for a book. So, I made a commitment to write two stories a week. And then at the end of the year, I'd have you know, close to 100 stories. And along the way, Mark, Victor Hansen, and I had breakfast one day, and he said he wanted to write the book with me. And we agreed to do that. And so that's how it came to be. And what was fortunate was at the end of that first book, you know, when they print a book, they have these web pages that go by really quickly, like the newspapers you see in the movies are always going around. And other than when they're showing the movie, the newspapers in print. But at the end of the book, often they take those big white pages, they fold them a bunch of times, and then they make these things that they cut. And there's two or three blank pages. And our publisher said you have some blank pages at the back. Would you like to print anything there? And I said, give me 10 minutes, because that's all I had. I said more stories. I said, if you have a story, send it in, maybe we'll do a sequel. Well, within a year, we started getting 500 stories a week, people were sending and now they weren't all good. But there was enough to do a Second Helping of Chicken Soup for the Soul, a Third Serving, a Fourth Course, a Fifth Bowl, Sixth Pot, you know, whatever. And then we started doing niche books, Chicken Soup for the Women’s Soul, Chicken Soup for the Teenage Soul, etc. And that's how that took off. And, you know, one story that most people don't know is that we were turned down by 144 publishers over the course of 14 months. Everyone said no - stupid title, no one reads short story collections, etc. And so, it was 145th publisher who finally said yes, and I'd like to say and the rest was history, but it wasn't we didn't hit the bestseller list for another 14 months. We did something called the rule of five where every day, we made five phone calls, send out five letters, send out five free books, whatever to get books out there, you know? Called Five radio stations to see if they would interview us, etc. And eventually, there was a kind of a point at which it took off on its own, that people would read the book, tell their friends, they would tell their friends and daughters and buy books for their sales team. And at first book went on to sell over 10 million copies and the whole franchise and then took off. The Success Principles occurred because by the time we were super successful, and I bought a big house and was living in Santa Barbara, my son was about 11 at the time and he was I think, about six when the book came out. And we're lying-in bed one morning, on a Saturday morning, and he's on his computer playing a video game, and I'm in my computer, just probably answering emails or something. And he said, Dad, how come we live in a bigger house than all my friends. And I said, Well, we've been more successful. Why? So, I sold a lot of books, best selling author. Well, how’d you do that? And we just had this conversation which led down to, “Well, I live my life by this set of principles that I call the principles for success.” And he said, what are they? So, I started to tell him, and you know, like, 11-year-old, after a while, he got bored with it. He went back to his video game, and I kept writing down all these principles. And at the end of that had been an hour and a half, I had 114 principles that I had lived my life by. You know tell the truth faster, take action and ask for what you want, affirm, visualization, you know, respond to feedback, you know, whatever. And so, then I thought, well, that might make a good book. Then I started writing all these up, and I realized 114 was way too many. So, we narrowed it down to 64. And that's what became the first success principles book.
Marissa: That's an awesome story. And I think what I like most is that the underlying theme is that nothing comes easy. And anything that comes easy takes work. And that's sort of like healing from emotional abuse, right? You know, when you start healing, it's super painful, you cry, you experienced the emotions that you've suppressed or repressed, over however long it had been. But you ultimately triumph because you keep trying, and the more you push, and the more work you put into it, the more you get out of it.
Jack Canfield: I think that's true, I always tell people that, you know, the only place that success becomes before work is in a dictionary, you know, S before W. The reality is there's work to do, if everything was easy, we'd all be thin, we'd all be happy, we'd all be you know, enlightened, we'd all be wealthy, you know, whatever. Not the case, there is work to do. And it doesn't matter where you start, one of the great joys of Chicken Soup for the Soul was collecting all these stories of people who were born into poverty, people who lost limbs, people who had had PTSD from the military, people like myself, who you know, had childhood trauma, etc. But they overcame it because they were willing to do the work, whether it was therapy, whether it was learning the skills they needed for their profession, whether it was taking risks by going out and speaking or trying to make a sale or asking for support, whatever it might have been. You know, I didn't know this until about two years ago, Howard Schultz, who started Starbucks was turned down by 217 banks and investors before someone would lend him money to start the first Starbucks. And what if he'd stopped after 100? We'd all be drinking Nescafe or something.
Marissa: It's true. And I love that because it really shows that you know, the more work you put in, the more you get out. And if you really believe that you can do it, you keep trying, and again, it goes back to healing. It really stinks at first. And it's really hard because you're reliving all these horrible things and trying to avoid ruminating on these traumatic events. But once you push past that, and really start to see the light and you heal, you start to feel better. It all becomes worth it. And then you just keep trucking.
Jack Canfield: Yeah, one of my favorite phrases is, “Suffering is optional, but pain is required.” Meaning that you don't have to live a lifetime of suffering as most of us do, because we've never healed our childhood wounds, or some of them are adult ones, but a lot of them are from childhood. But there's pain you know, I mean, giving birth to a baby is painful, but the joy that comes from having given birth to their child raising their child and watching a child grow up and become successful and fulfilled and content, happy and productive citizen etc. nothing matches that starting a business is really difficult. I've started three of them in my life and for a long time you're going down the runway in the plane never seems like it's going to take off. There's a lot of work a lot of late nights and a lot of failures and challenges and things that don’t work, but eventually the plane does take off and you know after a while you get to 35,000 feet you level often there's much less gravity there's much less air resistance up there, and I can kind of coast a little bit. So I'm going to level in my life now with all the fame I have, and all the credibility, and the trust the people have given me etc. I get a lot of offers to do things that don't require me to do as much because people are willing to do more to be able to play with me. And so that wasn't true when I was 30 years old when I was, you know, 35. The same thing is true with anything when you started, you know, the first book I wrote, was very, very difficult because I didn't know what I was doing. But the second one was easier because I now have a template in my mind for how you do that. And so, the same thing is true with healing, as you said, there's a lot of painful memories that have to be re-experienced. But you know, one of the things today, we have so many technologies now with EFT and neuro linguistic programming, (NLP) and aroma therapy, and all these things that can actually accelerate and facilitate those healing processes. So, it doesn't have to be as painful as it might have been 20 years ago, when we didn't have these technologies.
Marissa: Absolutely. I think that therapies have really increased. And there are a lot of things what I really want to talk to you about Young Living Essential Oils, because it's something that both of us are really passionate about. We're on a team together about it. And I'm really excited for your feelings challenge on June 1. So, tell me a little bit about how the essential oils have helped you how you kind of got involved in it.
Jack Canfield: Yeah, well, I was something up until about three months ago, I thought essential oils, I didn't even get to hear the word essential oils, like I'd go to the spa. And someone would say, “Here, smell these three things Eucalyptus, Lavender, and Lemon. Which one would you like in your diffuser? Which one would you like in your oil when you’re getting a massage?” And I’d say, “Well, what's the difference?” Well, this one's relaxing, this one's calming, this one will wake you up, you know, whatever? And that was all I knew. And, and then last October, I was doing one of our retreats and you know, you were there. Basically, what happened was the woman came and she was into essential oils. And she said, hey, you're about to do this process where you go back, and we are going to identify a limiting belief that you took on between the ages of three and eight years old. And she said, you know, if we use these essential oils, it can be easier and faster and more effective. And I went really? She said, Yeah, so she had us all like rubbing these oils on and smelling them and everything. And you know, I'm thinking this a little weird at first, but you know, I'm always willing to play along. And sure enough, a lot of people went faster and deeper and had great experiences. And then throughout the rest of the seminar, you know, we're doing life purpose for people. We're rubbing Clarity and smelling that and Inner Child, and Joy, and Peace and Calming and all these things. And I was learning Lavender is calming and Peppermint wakes you up. And so anyway, very cool. And like everything, you learn something and then if it's not reinforced very quickly, you kind of forget about it. So, you know, I come home, November, December, January, I'm not thinking much about this because those Christmas is coming up and all that. And then in February, I went to India to an Areavetti Centre, where we were changing our diet to a plant-based diet and I was on a weight loss thing I'd lost 15 pounds. My wife and I did a lot of detoxing. And we had a great time there with people we got steam baths every day and massages, and detoxing and enemas and all this stuff was great. And then we come home the Coronavirus takes over and there's this big pandemic in the world. And all of a sudden, it's like oh my God, my business, which is putting on live trainings. And now we're being told by the state of California, you can't have meetings of more than 50 people. And then a couple weeks later, more than 10 people that it was no meetings in hotels. Hotels were all like, you know, going crazy. We were going crazy. We had all this money to return to people if we didn't figure out some way to pivot and do those trainings online, which we've done pretty well doing that. I've delivered some online keynote speeches now. But anyway, at that time was like oh my god, and I was really wanting to make sure my immune system was strong so that they wouldn't get anything. In that process, I was reintroduced to the essential oils, and started learning about how they could enhance the immune system, how they could calm people down in the midst of chaos and fear, which was rampant in our society. And in my own company, Alice, who you know, is my sales director and she was freaking out. She had to call up all these people and tell them we're cancelling this training. Fear was everyone's going to ask for their money back. How do we pivot those people into an online training and Anyway, she started using Valor which is one of our oil blends, which she just basically she put it into a diffuser, which then puts it up in the air so you’re inhaling it, and rubbing it in her hands, like you were just doing. I have Valor right here somewhere on my table.
And that I use Lavender when I go to bed at night. I use Inner Child - a blend that makes you get into your inner child - I've been working all week. And I just said I want to go to my wife and be young and playful for the evening. And so, it’s just so amazing these oils actually impact your emotions.
They impact your state of consciousness, your state of being and they also help with your wellness. So we started getting into this and started using them. And then all of a sudden, I was reintroduced to the income potential, the fact that you could, you know, enhance your income and eventually even move toward financial freedom. And I was at the point thinking, if we don't pivot our company successfully, I don't want to fire my staff, they've been with me 25 years, 35 years with Patty, 10 years with almost everyone. And, you know, we're talking about payroll protection plans, and all this kind of stuff, are we going to get a loan? We don't know. And I thought if I could find another way to supplement their income, so that if we did have to cut everyone salary, instead of fire, everybody, people would still have an alternative source of income. So basically, the network marketing opportunity that came with the essential oils was an opportunity to do that. So literally everyone in my company, all 12 employees, and two of my consultants who are not employees, but do a lot of work for us, Kathleen Seeley, who you know, and also women who have thought of our copywriting, we sign them up as well. And we've all been engaged in this now for two months. We've been very successful at it. And our lives are changing in terms of, my wife said to me this morning, “You have been the calm, the most loving, the most non-reactive I've ever seen you in your life.” And I realized this because every day I'm putting these oils on in the morning. There's one called White Angelica, which it sounds woo-woo as hell, I would have said you're crazy three months ago, that actually puts a protective aura around you, it doesn't allow you to be affected by other people's emotions. At night, we're putting Lavender on our feet, and we're sleeping through the night. Whereas before, I would wake up in the middle of the night, and she would wake up in the middle of night, we don't do that anymore. She used to have Restless Leg Syndrome. Now, her legs don’t twitch when she falls asleep or in the middle of the night. That's been wonderful for us. And I have discovered, this is so cool about oils and why they work, is that every oil has a frequency just like every color. Like the color of your shirt is reflecting a certain frequency of light, my shirts reflecting a different frequency. And so, every oil has a frequency that relates to either an emotion or a feeling state. Or it can relate to the same vibration, like your liver has a certain frequency. So, there's certain oils, if you put it over your liver, helps your liver be healthier, helps it balance out what it does, its functions so forth. So, I've been studying all this and but just blown away by it. Also, many of the oils have what we call a free radical, they help get rid of the oxygen that's for roaming around the free radicals that cause problems in the body. And then the emotional part. And this is why I think you and I got so excited about it is that literally, if you've had emotional trauma in your life, these oils, there's a kit called a Feelings Kit. And in this kit comes with a bunch of oils, I can open it up really quickly. One of theme’s missing because I'm using it. I have two of these and I ran out of one oil, because I was using it so much.
And what we're doing in the month of June is we're going to do this what we call Emotional Reset or Feelings Challenge. Were starting in June, every day, you will apply these six oils to your body in the morning and again at night. And what happens they go in through the skin. And within 20 minutes, this is the part that just blows me away and this is pure science, the atomic mass unit of the atoms that are in these essential oils are so small, (I don't want to get too scientific. But there's this thing called Dalton's atomic mass units. Anything under 300 or 400 can go through the brain blood barrier and affect the brain.) And all these essential oils are 300 atomic mass units or smaller, which means they all go in effect the neuroreceptors in the brain. So, within 20 minutes, every cell in your body has 40,000 molecules of this essential oil from one drop, you have 100 million trillion cells in your body, there's 4000 million trillion cells of atoms of essential oil one drop. And so literally, they penetrate your entire body. So, every cell in your body within 20 minutes from your brain to your liver, your kidney has 40,000 atoms of this essential oil with this frequency and this vibration either on it or in it within 20 minutes, which is just astounding. What else can do that? You know, so it's pretty amazing to me. So anyway, we're going to be doing this challenge and what will happen is that the emotional system if you will in the body begins to normalize itself over time through the oils because the oils have a cumulative effect. For the people that are following you, this is really useful in terms of helping them to go to greater inner peace, greater joy, greater calmness, greater equanimity, all the things that we all want, as opposed to, you know, experiencing the effects of the childhood trauma.
Marissa: Totally, no, thank you so much. I mean, that was a lot of information. And to sum it up really, really short. The thing I love most about essential oils, especially Valor, it's funny that you pointed that out because that is, by far my favorite one, is your Hippocampus, the memory center of your brain is directly connected to your nose. So, smells bring up much more vivid memories. There's my Valor, that's my baby. I have four bottles of it right next to me at all times. So, when you smell something, it triggers a memory in your brain. And so, these essential oils are fabulous Because when you think of something so negative, and then associate it with something so positive, you're pretty much rewriting your brain. And you're allowing your brain and your body to release that memory. There's a blend that I really like, and I use with all my coaching clients called Release, which is part of the Feelings Kit. And it's really, really good for releasing that trauma and like breaking down those walls and allowing yourself to be open to the healing journey and everything that's coming towards you to help make your life better.
www.marissafayecohen.com/oils
Jack Canfield: Yeah, the other thing we're going to do, too, every month, at least for the first next three or four months, we've scheduled this out, is in June, we're doing the Feelings Kit. In July, the current plan is to do what's called the Perfect Day Plan where literally with certain oils, you put them on in the morning, and your whole day goes better. And my wife and I experimented with that for a week and it was true. This we were kind of in a state of joy most of the day. And then we're going to do a Dr. Perkis, who invented this thing called the Aroma Freedom Technique, which is very much like what I described the exercise we do in my training. But with oils, we're going to do that probably in August and then each month we'll have a focus of something we want to focus on. One of the oils, what it does for you, and how it can affect your life. So, I'm really thrilled with this. And as a person who's always looking, how can we go further and faster with less effort, that's always what I'm looking for.
I mean, I used to have people 300 people in a workshop with towels, beating chair screaming, you know, F*** You! and stuff to get rid of all this anger that they might have had from their childhood abuse. And then we discovered the Sedona Method and so you could just basically let the feeling be they're open to experience it fully let it go. Then we discovered tapping, which I liked even better. We started tapping these emotions away the five-minute phobia cure, getting rid of phobias in five minutes or less, and fear and all that kind of stuff. And then I discovered oils, oils are even quicker along with these other techniques. So, I mean, maybe someday we'll find something and you just basically swallow a pill and you've been enlightened. I don't know if that'll ever happen, but I'll sell it if it does.
Marissa: Oils are pretty close. I mean, I use Valor every day when I wake up. And I have the most confidence I've had in 10 years.
Jack Canfield: Yeah, no, Alice, she was telling us when she had to call up all these people and tell them that our training had been cancelled. And she was worried that we're all going to like disappear and take their deposits with them and bankrupt our company. And she was using valor about every two hours all through the day just to make those calls. And she said, “I was so scared in the morning and after valor I wasn’t and if anything started to come back, I would do it again.” And she said, “Now this is my go-to oil.” We just did our first Facebook live together this morning. And she was a little nervous. Again, she did valor and we had an amazing Facebook Live, it was so cool.
Marissa: That's awesome. I was on it for like the last half of it. So, I am really excited that you and I are partnered for this challenge. And for the Feelings Challenge, and with the essential oils. I think that that's amazing. And I would love for anyone who's interested in joining our team and getting to hang out with Jack Canfield join. I have a link in the description to enroll www.marissafayecohen.com/oils and when you enroll following that link, you will automatically be put on my team, which is Jack Canfield's team you get to hang out with him every Tuesday.
Jack Canfield: Yeah, let me just say about that when you join the team because I didn't know much about essential oils. But every Tuesday from 10:30am until 12pm California time, we have an education call and we've had some of the most amazing experts on these calls. People that have been involved with Young Living for 25 years doctors, literally MD’s, chiropractors, psychologists, and they come on and they educate us about the impact of these oils. How to use them correctly, what they are, what the feelings kit does. What the Aroma Therapy Technique is. We had a member of the military who had PTSD come on and talk about how he overcame his trauma from the war using these oil kits, and how his night rages stopped and how his flashback stopped occurring. And he got more emotional balance and everything. And he was amazing along with his wife and talking about their story of how essential oils had had really helped them normalize their emotions over time. And so, every week we have that. And then we have opportunity calls. So if you decide you want to do this as a business opportunity, obviously, when you first start this, you don't know how to talk about it, but we do. And so, every Wednesday and every Friday at 12 o'clock Pacific Standard Time, we do a call where myself and Alice and probably Marissa, some, at some point will be on there as a teacher as well, because people are telling their stories about how it's impacted them. And so, what happens is, we're doing all the enrolling for you, and then you just sign them up that part's really easy, or we can even help you sign the people up underneath you. And you do that for like four or five weeks. And by then, you know, you've got your story down, you know, you hear it enough, you can tell it yourself. And we've grown our organization, from about 31 people, I looked today, we're at 550 people after just a couple of months. And so, it's very exciting for me, that we're here to support you. I've never been so enrolled in anything as I was since I started our Train the Trainer program, we started training people all over the world to teach our work itself the success principles. My wife says you're like a little kid in a candy store. I said Yeah, I am. I'm having too much fun. I just can't wait to get out of bed in the morning and start again.
Marissa: That's awesome. Oh, that makes me so happy, like revitalized you.
Jack Canfield: Yeah, so tell people how to be on your team again one more time and then we can bring it to a close.
Marissa: Okay, so in the description under this video, I have a link that directs you to how to enroll how to become a member and my information’s already input in it. So, all you need to do is pick out your kit and your diffuser, I always recommend the Desert Mist because I just think it's the prettiest And I really like the candle setting three buttons in. So just so you know, but follow the link, sign up, register and enroll, get your starter kit and then join us for this world of learning how to change your life financially, emotionally, physically, literally any possible way you need a life change. This one's got you, know essential oils really help.
www.marissafayecohen.com/oils
Jack Canfield: I love it, essential oils We got you Got you.
Marissa: Thank you so much for being here, Jack Canfield. I really, really appreciate it. I hope this helps a lot of people. Thank you, we’re really grateful.
Jack Canfield: So, welcome yourself. I'm always glad to help you any way I can. Thank you so much.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to take years either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today I have the amazing pleasure of introducing Dr. Sheena Howard. Dr. Sheena Howard just recently put out an amazing fiction book about domestic violence in the LGBTQ community. And I'm so excited to talk about it. She is a game changer. She is so smart and such a champion. I'm so excited to talk to her today. Thank you so much, Sheena, for being here.
Sheena: Thank you, I'm excited to be here.
Marissa: Awesome. Okay, let's get started. Tell us your truth.
Sheena: So, for me, I entered into a relationship with a woman and I had dated several women, before I ended up in an abusive relationship with a woman. But for this particular relationship, it was a time where like, I really wanted to be in a serious, committed relationship. And I was ready to kind of like, you know, settle down and stop playing around and just be and be in a serious relationship. And so, I met this woman. At the beginning, it was really amazing, you know, the whole honeymoon phase, everything's great. And I remember one of our friends commented that, Oh, you guys never seem to argue. So, this was like, probably like seven months in to the relationship. And of course, I fell in love And I thought that this was, “my person.” And I had already to myself said, Okay, this is the person, you know, I'm going to try to make this relationship work because I hadn't really had a long-term relationship with a woman before. Something that was serious. So, I committed to myself that I want to make this relationship work with this person. And at the beginning, you know, after emotions are already involved, and I was already in love with this person, I ignored like, small signs that I'm that now I know our signs of a narcissist. But you know, small things like putting rifts between my friends and I. Putting rifts between family members who I was closest to, and have strong relationships with. And then sowing seeds of doubt in my in my closest relationships is something that she would do. So, like I have an older brother, he's four years older than me. So, when I was in high school, he was in college. It was basically just me and my mom in the house. And she would say, the more she got to know about me and my family, she kind of used those details to plant like negative seeds in my head. She would say, “Oh, so basically, you were raised, like an only child." You know, that kind of like distancing that an abuser does to make you feel like you don't have anybody close to you as a support system. So, she would sow those small seeds in my head, and those were little things that I didn't I just, you know, I just oh, that's something to consider. Maybe I was kind of raised like only childhood, because my brother is older. You know, things that you don't kind of pay attention to that are actually, like, we're kind of like weakening my sense of who I was, and my sense of identity and kind of making it so my world was only about her. Eventually, I started to feel like smothered. Like if I wanted to go to the outsides of the mailbox, she would say, where are you going? Why do you have to go to the mailbox now? I want to come with you those kinds of things. But I also started to feel like I needed to, like take care of her or protect her because she was having some family issues and some job issues and things like that. So, the relationship kind of became, I guess what people call codependent — where I felt like I had like, it was my responsibility to help her and take care of her because this is the person that I decided that I wanted to be with. And she would tell me things like, you know, we're meant to be in our relationship just want to get better and better. And I believed those things I wanted to make the relationship work. But eventually, that emotional abuse turned into verbal abuse. Her calling me names telling me I had mental health disorders and on all types of things that she would just make up as a way to kind of chip away at my self-esteem. And as somebody in a relationship with someone you love, you don't think that this person is doing anything sinister, right? You don't you know, assume that somebody is attacking you or trying to abuse you in those ways. And for me, she began with physical abuse, things like trapping me in the house, not letting me leave standing in front of the door, tackling me those kinds of things. I didn't even really see those things as domestic abuse. For me, I didn't have like a mental template for that. One of the important things I learned in my experience is that, you know, we're trained to think of abuse as men abuse women, right? That's what we're trained to believe and understand. So, when you're in a relationship with someone of the same sex, for me, at least for me, it was, it was harder to identify that, “Wow, this is, you know, this is what abuse looks like.” And then couple that with feelings of shame and embarrassment. Like some of the things she was doing, I certainly didn't want to tell people that were closest to me, I didn't want to let anybody know. Part of it was trying to protect my relationship. Because if I think I want to be with this person, why would I tell my family members and friends these awful things that she's doing to me, but also, I didn't see those things as abusive. And this went on for years. And eventually, I had to call the police in an incident where I was trying to get out of the house and get away from her in a moment of her crazy rage. And it wasn't until then that I really started to understand that this is what abuse looks like, you know, just because it's a female abusing another female doesn't mean that it isn't abuse. And I ended up getting a restraining order, I ended up reaching out to one of the local domestic violence organizations here in Philadelphia, to help me get out of this situation. So, I used the resources available to me. Of course my family and friends were there with open arms to give me shelter, to help me get out of the relationship and away from this person. But it was a tough road. It was tough for me to understand that actually was a victim. You know, the word victim was really hard for me to wrap my head around. It's also hard for me to even say, say that I'm a survivor. Those labels and identities for me were hard to wrap my head around because I didn't want to see myself as a victim. But coming out of that relationship, now I just want to help people protect themselves from getting in an abusive relationship. And I also want to create awareness specifically for the LGBTQ community. Because there are research studies from the CDC and the HRC about abuse in lesbian and gay relationships. There are higher rates in the LGBTQ community than there are in the heterosexual community. As far as domestic violence and abuse, I feel like even within the community and outside of the community, this public health crisis is swept under the rug and ignored and particularly in the lesbian and gay community, they don't want to talk about this issue. Yes, you know, we know the slogan is love and love. But within that there are people really dealing with some terrible things that could cost them their lives.
Marissa: I'm so happy that you brought that up, that was going to be something that I really wanted to touch on. So, the LGBTQAI+ community actually has the highest rate for both sexual assault and domestic violence. For a lot of reasons. Do you know any of those reasons?
Sheena: You know, one of the ways that I wanted to create awareness coming out of my situation to help people protect themselves, is to write a book, right? To show that this happens to same sex couples. And one of the things that I learned is that, you know, abuse is abuse, whether it's heterosexual, or emotional abuse in lesbian relationships and gay couples. But there are some different aspects and layers within a gay relationship that needs to be discussed and taken into account. So, some of the things that an abuser might use as leverage in a gay relationship might be, you know, telling their partner that, you know, I'm going to out you. I'm going to tell people that you're lesbian or gay if you tell them about this narcissism. You can tell them about this abuse, or the high rates of homelessness in the LGBTQ community is also another factor that might keep a victim in a relationship with an abuser, because they may feel like they don't have anywhere else to go. And then also, I think, just that social script of abuse is male to female is really hard for a lesbian or gay person to wrap their head around when they're in a relationship with a narcissist who is the same sex.
Marissa: Thank you for all that. Honestly. I feel like it's so dumb that in 2020, we're still under the impression and still forwarding the narrative that abuse is male to female and it's only abuse if you get hit. That's not true. I think that's such crap. I'm so glad that you brought that up. Anyone can be a narcissist, and anyone can be a survivor. And I think it's really important to really push that narrative and make people know that it doesn't matter who you are, you can be a victim, you can be a survivor.
Sheena: Right. And when I when I was really trying to, you know, understand more about emotional abuse after I got out of my situation, I realized that I was in relationships with people that were abusive before. I didn't stay in those relationships. I got out like, as soon as I saw the signs of a toxic relationship. There's so many things that I took for granted as a lesbian, that I just kind of let it slide. Like abuse looks like somebody's not wanting you to hang out with your friends. Abuse looks like a person that doesn't allow you to hang out with your friends without them. Abuse looks like jealousy. Like, I feel like, for at least for me, dating women, I kind of let those things slide. Oh, she doesn't really love me and just really into me, that's why she always has to go everywhere with me. But no, that is a form of emotional abuse and control, because abuse is about power and control, not necessarily about the gender of the person.
Marissa: Absolutely. Abuse also looks like somebody's calling you incessantly over and over and over again. If you have 13 missed calls from your significant other because you didn't answer but they know you're with your family or friends, That’s abusive. If you have insane numbers of text messages, if you're getting text after text after text. And it can all be mean; it could be mixed. It could be I hate you, you’re awful, go die, I'm sorry, I love you. You know, it just follows the cycle.
Sheena: Exactly. And some of those more subtle, I guess I can call them subtle, forms of abuse are the ones that may be hard to notice early on in a relationship or as a relationship goes on. But they're they are very impact and damaging to one's self esteem, self-worth sense of self. I know for me, when I was in my abusive relationship, I didn't catch on to what she was doing for a while. I would say, okay, Saturday, I'm going to go visit my mother at say 10am. And it would be like 9:45am, and she still be in the bed and I would be up dressed. “Hey, come on, let's go. You know I said I was going to go visit my mother.” And since I couldn't go anywhere by myself, she had to come, too. And every single time or when it was time for me to go visit family, she would create an argument over something. So that she could get me in a place where I was so upset where I would just not go visit my family. Or she would purposely you know, make me late. So, it's 9:45am we're supposed to meet my family at 10am. And you're still in the bed and now you're creating an argument with me over, why am I rushing you? I didn't realize that those things were part of the cycle of abuse that she had me in until later on. Yeah, and so it was crazy situation where I wasn't able to go visit family because she was sabotaging my plans to go visit family. And then the times where I would say you know what, I'm leaving you stay here and you're not dressed, then she would Gaslight me and say what type of person would just leave their significant other home when they're going to visit family? Just that whole crazy, crazy making. Whereas a person who is self-critical, right? You care about your partner's feelings. You do self-reflect and say, okay, maybe that wasn't right, then you start feeling guilty. Year of that whole cycle. That because I was in it. I couldn't tell you that that was narcissism. Because particularly at the beginning, I wasn't like being hit.
Marissa: Right? I've said that before. If you get into a relationship with a person, and the first thing they do is punch you in the face, chances are you're going to leave.
Sheena: Exactly. I saw a really good example, when I was doing the research for my book, where if you put a frog in boiling water, the frog’s gonna jump right out and never come back. But if you put a frog in water, that's the perfect temperature, and you slightly turn it up every day, then the frog, she's going to get used to that temperature until it burns to death. And it's like that saying it that's exactly what it is.
Marissa: That's such a good example. I've never heard that before. I love it. So, I really liked how you touched on yellow flags and red flags. Abuse is it's a cycle. And it's a cycle of pushing boundaries, right. So, like you just said, with a frog, if you turn it all the way up at the beginning, the frog is going to leave. It's a small step by step pushing boundaries. And so, it's really important to set boundaries at the beginning and you know, obviously, when you're starting a new relationship, you're in the honeymoon phase and everything is great. You don't see the subtle jabs, right.
Sheena: Yeah, the boundary thing is so important. And like you said, it's so difficult because at the beginning, you let a couple of things slide. Oh, yeah, I wanted to go hang out with my friends, but she wants to come. We've only been dating for like six months. That's cute. She wants to come. You don't think that — No, that's a form of control because if you tell her that she can't come, she's going to have a fit and it's going to be an argument so you don't even that anxiety that you're feeling to tell your partner that you want to go hang out with friends, that's that mental that that cycle that you're that you're getting into. Which is really tough to recognize when you're in that honeymoon phase.
Marissa: I will maintain this for Ever I think physical abuse is awful, you know, getting punched, getting hit, anything, the whole thing is awful. The psychological abuse and verbal abuse stay with you. Well, it's the little tinge of anxiety you get, because you don't want to piss them off, you want to go hang out with your friend, but you don't want to make them angry, so where I'm with. And you don't realize that that's pushing your boundary but it's also emotional abuse there in your head. And so those I call those yellow flags. You know, that gut feeling that it's not right, it doesn't feel right, but you don't know why. And maybe you're doubting yourself, you're so used to being wrong and told that what you're saying and feeling and doing is wrong, that you doubt yourself. And those yellow flags are so easy to ignore.
Sheena: Yeah. And that's why it's so important. When you're in a relationship, let the people closest to you know what's going on, because they can validate your reality. At the beginning, if I had told friends or people that are closest to me, like my mother, maybe they would have been able to just validate like, no, that's not right. That's not cool. No, that's not normal. But instead, you know, we keep our relationship behind closed doors, because we feel embarrassed, or you don't want to make this person look bad. And so, they're the ones that get to validate the narrative, and they're validating a narrative that is totally outside of reality.
Marissa: Right! I'm so glad you said that. Thank you. So, tell us about your book. I'm so excited to hear about it.
Sheena: Thank you so much. Yes. So, you know, I guess a lot of people when they come out of an emotionally abusive relationship, we want to help, we want to help protect people from going through what we went through. And so, for me, I just realized that particularly in the lesbian community, we don't talk about emotional abuse in lesbian relationships; we don't talk about these yellow and red flags that seem to be normal in same sex relationships that are actually forms of abuse. And so, for me, I wrote the fiction novel, Nina's Whisper to bring awareness to same sex domestic abuse and emotional abuse in lesbian relationships, because it's a story about one woman's journey to triumph over domestic abuse at the hands of another woman. There's a little bit of physical abuse, but the focus of the book is on emotional and mental abuse. And also understanding the narrator's thought process in trying to dissect all of these instances of a narcissist that she's facing, but that she doesn't know is abuse. For someone who's come out of an abusive relationship, you know, you understand kind of the cycle. So, you can you can understand, Nina is the main character's name, you can understand Nina's self-reflection, how her self-esteem is being broken down. But ultimately at the end you're rooting for Nina to save herself. Without giving away too much of the book that came out in April this past April 2020 And I'm also doing a graphic novel adaptation of the book, which will be out April 2021. Because I think it's so important to show we need a visual representation of lesbian emotional abuse right? If we can see it, then we're closer to understanding that this is a public health crisis for LGBTQ people, as well as heterosexual people. If we don't see it, it's harder for us to recognize when we are in these types of abusive situations.
Marissa: I agree. It humanizes it when you put a face to it.
Sheena: Exactly. Also, I hope the book shows that abuse is abuse, whether it's male to female, female to female, male to male. Abuse is abuse, you know that the playbook that abusers use is the same,
Marissa: Right! 100% Thank you. So where can we where can we buy your book?
Sheena: So, Nina's whisper is available pretty much wherever they sell books, the easiest might be Amazon. It's available on Audible, so you can listen to it if you prefer audio books. It's available as an e-book if you prefer Kindle and reading on your tablet. And it's available as a paperback if you still like those hard copies. And you can get it on websites like Barnes and Noble and Books a Million, but the easiest place will probably be Amazon and sometimes I run deals on Amazon, too with price drops.
Marissa: Oh, that's awesome. Do you have any social media pages that we could follow?
Sheena: I sure do. So, I have a Facebook fan page that is Dr. Sheena Howard. I have a Twitter account. That is Dr. Sheena Howard. And I have an Instagram page that is Dr. Sheena Howard. I really like Twitter. That's my favorite medium. So please interact with me on Twitter. Then my website is www.SheenaCHoward.com.
Marissa: Perfect. Thank you so much. Do you have any advice for members of the LGBTQ community that might have found themselves in narcissistic relationship?
Sheena: So, if you feel like you're in an abusive relationship right now, or if you if something's just not sitting right with you in this relationship — you know, one of the things that I think is important is if you feel like you're starting to dislike yourself, you're in a relationship and you're starting to dislike yourself, you feel like you're, you're being smothered; You feel like your close relationships with people have deteriorated since you've been in this relationship — the first thing, I would recommend is to talk to somebody. Whether it is the National Domestic Abuse hot-line, or it's a close family, friend or family member, talk to someone Have someone else validate your experience, and what you're going through. Of course, if there's physical abuse, reach out to your local domestic abuse organization in your county in your city, or the National Domestic Violence Hot-line. Just know that you're not alone. And there are resources and there are people that love you and care about you that you can talk to. Do not feel embarrassed.
Marissa: And what about people who are just out of abusive relationships?
Sheena: Yeah, if you're just coming out of an abusive relationship:
1) Come to terms with the fact that you're a survivor, right? You were a victim. And now you're a survivor. I think that's a really important step to moving on and getting back to a healthy place.
2) Definitely go to therapy, right? Talk to somebody.
3) If you need to get an order protection from your city, go get your order protection or your restraining order.
4) And reach back out to the people that you may be neglected during that relationship, right? build a community with a blanket of people around you, that can help you.
Marissa: Chances are when you share your story people are going to share back.
Sheena: Absolutely.
Marissa: Abuse is so common. When I first started sharing my story, I had tons of people telling me theirs. So, don't be afraid to speak out, especially in a community like the LGBTQ community where it is so common, and so not talked about.
Sheena: That's so true. Once I started sharing my stories amazing, like some of my closest friends were telling me about things that they had been through with their relationships. I'm like, oh, my goodness, I've known you for all these years and you know, we've never talked about this. So, I think that's so true. Once you start sharing your story, I think people will share their story with you. And you'll build that blanket, that community around you.
Marissa: Thank you so, so much for joining us today. Sheena. Oh my gosh, you're a wealth of amazing information. And I cannot wait to read your book.
Sheena: I really appreciate that. And let me know what you think about it.
Marissa: One more great, big thank you to Dr. Sheena, for being here today and talking to us about abuse in the LGBTQ plus community. It is so commonly overlooked because like Dr. Sheena said, the depiction of abuse is usually a male hurting a female. We want to change that we're both working to change that. That's not the narrative. the LGBTQ community is the highest risk for being in an abusive relationship or in a sexual assault. So, help us change the narrative Check out her book on Amazon, Barnes and Noble anywhere that books can be bought and educate yourself about how important it is to support every survivor and that it's not just a female male problem. This is an everybody problem. There's no one demographic that is more susceptible to abuse. Thank you so much for joining us today and I will talk to you guys next week.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
narcissist. narcissism. overcoming narcissism. toxic relationship. toxic people. ways to heal. how to heal from emotional abuse. living with a narcissist. good friends. healthy relationship. intimate partner violence. intimate partner relationship. healthy relationships. self love. confidence. self esteem. low self esteem. self esteem activities. confidence exercises. breaking through the silence. what does emotional abuse do to you. what does it mean to be narcissistic. what being with a narcissist does to you. what emotional abuse does to you. learning how to trust myself again. i trust myself. i only trust myself. in myself i trust. trust myself. Can you heal from abuse. What do I do after leaving my narcissist. What does a healthy relationship look like. IPV LGBTQ. LGBTQ domestic violence statistics. lesbian emotional abuse. lesbian emotionally abusive relationship. emotional abuse in lesbian relationships.
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today I wanted to focus on a way to heal. A lot of people over the last couple years have told me about roller derby but I have admittedly never tried it. So I brought on an expert today, my amazing friend Lauren, who is a roller derby expert, and also a screaming activist. Thank you so much for joining us, Lauren.
Lauren: Thank you.
Marissa: So would you mind speaking your truth to us telling us a little bit about what you experienced and how you got to where you are today?
Lauren: Yeah, sure. Its been a long, tough, but really rewarding journey. So I grew up in a really small community just outside of Windsor, Ontario. I was a pretty average normal kid, other than being a twin, which is kind of super cool. So I grew up and one thing about me was, I was always a super awkward individual. So, I always say I was an awkward kid, I grew up into an awkward teen and now, I'm an awkward adult. But when I hit grade eight, I remember really wanting to date because a lot of my friends were, and being an awkward individuals really hard, obviously, for me to interact with people I want to date. So hit high school, grade nine, whatever. I had, you know, like fling boyfriends like you do in high school. You know, you date a week, and then you break up because it's high school. But I remember when I was like, 16, or 17, and it's weird, I vividly remember the day. I used to run a lot when I was a teenager. It's not so much now. But I try. But I do like 7k or 8k, which is insane. But I was gearing up to go do a run. And I remember starting turning left off of my parents street. It was summer or fall and I was wearing like, my favorite four years strong sweater, black compression pants and running shoes. I just put on my favorite podcasts around to. And one of my best friends called me and said, you know, like, I have this friend that really wants to meet you. He thinks you're really cute and I was like, oh, that's really cool. She said like he's older. I remember feeling really excited because I was 16. And when you're 16 and somebody older notices you, you're super excited. So did my run and then I ran home and she's like, “We'll meet up next week.” So she came, a week went by, she came she picked me up in our car and we went off to Windsor. And I've never really like, really got out of my small town other than like, my parents like dropping me off for a roller derby practice and like picking me up. So this was like a big deal to me. Like I got to go to like the big city out of my small little suburb. I remember arriving at an apartment building. We climbed two flights of stairs and we walked into apartment building and it literally felt like the chaos was erupting in this tiny apartment. Various amounts people. I like looked in the bathroom. There's some guy shaving his head into Mohawk. And I was like, that's wild but she brought me into the bedroom and like introduced me to like this boy sitting on a bed. He seemed really shy. And like over the course of like the night me and his boy got to know each other. And we had planned to hang out he following week. So did that I was convenient because my friend who'd introduced us lived in my small tiny suburb and would come and grab me and we would go to his apartment because her partner also lived with him. So everything seemed pretty ideal, pretty normal to me. I mean, this person got to know each other over the course of several weeks, you know, we shared our truths or dreams or like fears. I don't really remember like when it all went sour, but I remember my friend picking me up one day and having like a really strange conversation in the car, about something along the lines of like losing your virginity and I was like what the f***? I was like, Okay, and then like, I was like looking out the window being like, I'm done with that conversation. So she dropped me off and something like was off when we got to the apartment. There was nobody there and there's always parties going on. I like his apartment, which was like normal and I've become like, normalized to it. So it's like, this is weird. It's quiet. There's nobody here what the fuck is going on? And so my friend was like, oh, like I'll see you later. I have some errands to run. I didn't think anything of it, I was like, okay. The person my abuser asked me to go for a walk. And I said, Sure, like, let's go walk by the river, because he lived by the river in Windsor. And I remember seeing rain clouds. So we headed back to the apartment. We got back there and it literally started down-pouring. And he's like, you want to go like watch movie in my room? And I was like, yeah, sure. That's not out of the ordinary. So I remember like, going into his room and I remember like, specifically things getting hot and heavy and me being like, I don't think this is what I want right now. But him continuing, regardless of me trying to put in some form of boundaries. And then I remember like things happening that I didn't necessarily want to. And me being like, okay, like, I feel really weird after this. And like my friend driving me home. And I was just like, I don't know what just happened. But like, it definitely wasn't something that I wanted. But I didn't necessarily have the language for like assault or rape or like sexualized violence. Because I grew up Catholic. I went to Catholic grade school, and then I was attending in Catholic High School, and there wasn't much of a sexual health or a sexual education program in my school. As you can imagine, like Catholic schools don't very much like sexual education. So I was like, I don't have the language. I don't know what just happened, which was like awful. And so like, I couldn't talk about it, because I was like, I know I feel really fucked up. I can't tell my parents because like, I don't know why I feel fucked up. But I remember going home and, getting home late and my mom asking, how are you and me saying I just got to go shower. And so, I tried to just shower off the feeling that I was feeling. I was just sitting in my bed and trying to come to terms with happened. Trying to put language to what I had just experienced. But I like couldn't.
So, you know, we continue to date and it continued to go downhill. Eventually, he became really verbally abusive. He tried to isolate me from people I cared about, the sexualized violence continued on multiple occasions. But, I didn't talk to anybody about it, because I didn't know what, it sounds not silly, but it's because I didn't have the language for it. I was, I don't know what is happening but I know what's wrong. All this was happening kind of pseudo behind closed doors. And I started to act out, you know, at home, and my parents didn't know like what was going on. So I think we chalked it up to maybe teenage angst. Eventually to graduate high school, which is great. And like I tried my, my shot at college. I went to hair school, but I was in the midst of an abusive relationship. So, I was dealing with that and dealing with the repercussions and mental repercussions and the physical repercussions. So my parents were like, “Yeah, we still don't know what's going on.” I was kind of pseudo flunking out of college I was put on like academic probation because, I couldn't focus in school because I couldn't complete the tasks because of the abuse I was like facing from this person. So my mom took me to the doctors and my doctor is like you probably have mild ADHD. And I was like, yeah, that's probably it. That's definitely it. That's so it. Yeah. But it wasn't it was like PTSD. And I was like, Okay, I'll write you a prescription for you know, Wellbutrin, which is not something I needed. So I just zombied out in college, because I was like, I have ADHD. That is what this is. Yeah, like wasn't so I continue to kind of my behavior continued to spiral. My parents were like, we don't know what to do anymore. Because, it was just me and my mom are fighting, like physically, like screaming at each other, like, because she was trying to figure out what's going on. And I didn't know what to tell her. And like, it was just not a great situation. So eventually, my parents were like, we can't do this anymore. I got home one day, and all my stuff is packed up on the porch. And I think at this point, me and my abuser had parted ways, which was great, but like I was still like, really just fucked up from everything that I had faced, everything that it dealt with. So my parents were like, you need to leave and I was like, yep, okay, keep in mind like, the night they kicked me out. I had met my current partner. And we had decided that I was going to shave my head into a Mohawk. And I came home with like a giant like put up, follow Mohawk. My parents were like, no, like, you have to go and I was like, okay, maybe not the best choice in hairstyles. So I packed up my stuff, and called my friend. My friend, my friend came and got me. We had couch-talk for a little bit with friends.
I eventually settled with one of the people that I played Derby with for a really long time. And you know, she was like, something is really weird. Something's going on with you. Were you sexually assaulted? And I just remember crying on our couch fix. It was like holy shit, that's what happened. That's what happened to me like over a year ago, and I didn't have the language and I didn't know how to tell anybody. Holy fuck you have it. So we called a sexual assault crisis hot-line. I booked an appointment with my counselor. And she said, I think you need to tell your parents and I said, me, and I think that's a really good idea. So we have my parents over and I told them, and from like my perspective, like my parent, I said, like, you know, this has happened to me, like I was sexually assaulted by my ex-partner. And that is why I was acting so weird. And I said, you know I'm getting help. And they said, good for you.
For years I was like, it haunted me because I was like, that's not the reaction I really wanted. But what I didn't know is they left and like my dad who's like this, white cisgender Boomer, who doesn't cry very like masculine, masculine man just balled the whole way home, which is like a half an hour drive for where I was staying. And I was like, Oh. So my parents took time to process that and my current partner came with me to like my therapy sessions.
Roller Derby really helped me kind of get through everything that I was going through from the time that the abuse started, the time it stopped. It was a safe haven where I could use consensual violence to navigate abuse, I was feeling on the outside world and like a really safe queer fem-based space, which I think what's really important for me to have, and I think role interviews is a huge reason why I'm still here, because I had an outlet, I had a safe outlet to use my body and to use consensual violence to navigate the violence that I was facing outside of the flat track.
So through Derby, I actually got into activism, which was really cool. I started to go to Take Back the Night. And I remember one day just thinking, you know, fuck it. And I wrote something along the lines of like, Me, Too. I'm a sexual assault survivor and that was like, the first time I was like, publicly open about what had happened. And I remember like, survivors coming to me and talking to me about their experience. And I was like, Whoa, like, this happens to other people. This is nuts.
From there, you know, like, I was healing with therapy, I was healing with Derby, which I had the whole time. I actually, like came up publicly, I applied to university, I got into a gender studies program, as well as social justice program. And I actually started to share my story within gender studies spaces, because one of the subjects we talked about with sexualized violence and, that was the first time was open and like a university setting to be, Yeah, man, like I was sexually assaulted, I started to do a lot of activism within like sexualized violence and like queer spaces, and woman based spaces, and really just really started to be open about my story and I found survivors were like flocking to me, this is my story. This is my experience. I found a really good therapist that has helped me navigate the residual physical trauma, even years after therapy. I'm still obviously not 100%. When my partner first met me, it was a shell of a human being, I would wake up in the middle of night crying; I would not be able to be touched. There's so much stuff. I had, like I had baggage. But I've been really lucky to meet a really supportive partner through and through this. And he's there to be there and support me, to help navigate my trauma. To be a support. He's been really great.
I find like activism has really helped me share my story and be able to engage and, use something so negative that has happened to me and turn it into this fire that drives me to scream and shout my story until I can't shout anymore, because I know that there are survivors out there who are still in the closet. We're still facing abuse. It's connected me with so many amazing, amazing folks, both allies, and both survivors and experiences of sexual violence. And that's where I'm at today, I guess.
Marissa: Thank you so much for sharing all of that. First of all, I just want to commend you and say that your story is so empowering and your strength and your passion is really, you can hear it in your voice and I'm so happy that even though horrible things happen to you found your way and you had all of these things in place to help you. And when you found them, you just blossomed and like flourished. I'm so happy that you shared it with us and that you are where you are today and that you're active and empowering and advocating for other people. So thank you for all of your work. I want to go back just for a second, because I've heard so many good things about roller derby and admittedly, never tried it. I would love to talk about that a little bit and like dive into how that helped you.
Lauren: So I actually found roller derby when I was prior to my abuse. So I've been rolling Derby probably just before I met my abuser. But it is such an empowering space. It is empowering because it is centered around women, and queer folx, and Femme-identifying people. And a lot of sports aren't dominated by these types of bodies, by Tran’s folx, by queer folx, by femme-people, bi-women. And I find it gives women, queer-folk trans folk, people who don't fit into binaries, who don't fit into normalized sports, it gives them an opportunity and space to use consensual violence as a means of working through shit. You get to hit your friends and skate. And it's the most amazing sport I've ever been a part of.
Marissa: You can hit your friends and also skate.
Lauren: Thank you.
Marissa: That's really cool. And I don't think there are enough sports and activities for the LGBTQAI+ community, and women to really be empowered. You know, I'm actively against softball, because I personally think that here's a big yellow ball that's not even much softer, but we're going to throw an underhand at your face. And you can hit it and run instead of baseball, I was always a baseball player until I wasn't until they said, well, you're a girl. So you have to play softball. So I love the idea of taking that women and people all people are human and have this need to be active and I think that that's really cool. Whereas something like boxing, which is usually a picture of a guy, you know, a big bodybuilder guy punching another big bodybuilder guy in the face, where we need that outlet to and although I don't really condone violence as like a form of healing, I think that this sounds really cool. Because it's active and it's a team sport, right? It's not individual.
Lauren: Yeah, it is a team sport. It is. My Derby team is like my family like they are through and through amazing people.
Marissa: That's awesome. So through that, you found strength and empowerment and support, right? That kind of prompted you to be more vocal about what you were going through. Because you realize you weren't alone and you were supported.
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. It's kind of funny, like Derby always, I've always had like Derby and activism kind of like cross paths a lot of time. And through Derby, Yeah I was like, yeah, maybe I'm not alone. And like, I found activism. And I was like, No, I'm definitely not alone. Yeah.
Marissa: What made me reach out to you about speaking with us today was a post you put on Facebook was an awesome poster of you. Can you tell me a little bit about what that was?
Lauren: Yeah, that was actually the night I was talking about. So that's my first ever poster that I made coming out as like a sexualized violence survivor. I had made a poster for Take Back the Night. And I was like, “Man, you know, like, fuck it. Like, there's got to be other people out there too.” So I made it my body my choice but underneath that I put like, hashtag me too, or a sexual assault survivor or something like that.
Marissa: It was cool. It was a picture of a female body. And yeah, pointing to you while you're holding the sign that said, I'm a survivor or I’m a sexual violence survivor. And I was so like, I saw that picture. And I was so excited. Because that was so empowering and uplifting, and you made something that is so dark in your life.,You made yourself extremely vulnerable, but in a very empowering way. Does that make sense?
Lauren: Yeah, it does. Yeah, I decided that I wasn't going to let my abuser or the abuse control my narrative or control my life. I was going to take it back.
Marissa: In what other ways have you been active in supporting or advocating for survivors or like activities on campuses and stuff?
Lauren: Oh, man. So we did something really, really cool on my campus this year. I really spearheaded the event. We're gonna be having an every year, Skate Night for Survivors. So one of my friends actually owns a skate company and they supply rental skates to a roller rink here in London, Ontario. Their skates are very portable so they're able to bring them to campus, and I worked in tandem I'm with the sexual education coordinator on my campus and we put on a free skate night where survivors could come lace up skates and like it was like a roller disco. We played music and they could skate around.
Marissa: I through my nonprofit, Within Your Reach, would love to partner with you.
Lauren: That'd be amazing.
Marissa: Okay, awesome. So we'll talk more about that not on the pod. Yeah. But I think that's such a cool idea. So now you're taking something that helped you, and that you're very passionate about. And you're like extending a hand to help uplift survivors, other survivors. That's incredible.
Lauren: Thank you.
Marissa: Welcome. I would love if you could give maybe like one or two pieces of advice to other survivors who are still feeling the way you felt where you didn't know the language. And you were really lost and confused and like couldn't put a word on it because it is so common, even outside of Catholic school. The public schools, at least where I grew up, weren't great at talking about unsafe sexual practices outside of you could get pregnant and die like Mean Girls, if you have sex, you will get clamydia and die. Like that's what we got and so a lot of people feel the same way you felt so what pieces of advice would you give to those people to help them understand that what they're going through is unfortunately common, and help them out of that.
Lauren: Just know that like, you're not alone that survivors experiences and victims of sexualized violence walk among you, like the person next to you can be a survivor. Just know that I know it's really difficult right now to see that you're not alone. But you are not alone. It's okay to reach out and it's okay to ask for help and find people that you trust and tell them if you can. Express yourself. If something is no Katie, if it doesn't feel okay, then it's probably not okay. Just trust your gut instinct.
Marissa: That's awesome advice. Thank you so much for joining us, Lauren. I am so excited to have you on here. I'm excited for everything that you're doing. And for our future partnership. I am so honored that you chose to speak with us today. And thank you so much for helping survivors in the ways that you are.
Lauren: Thank you for having me on.
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
Health education research. sexual health education. health education. intimate partner violence. sexualized. sexualization. toxic relationship. toxic partner. how to heal from abuse. healthy relationship. couple goals. relationship goals. self love. confidence.
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entires lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
This time, right now while we’re stuck in our homes, is a great time to click the reset button. Think about it, our responsibilities lie with leaving other people alone to take care of themselves while we care for ourselves and our families. If there was ever a perfect time to take a step back and be introspective into our lives, now is that time. Right now, I want you to make a list of all the people in your life that make you feel extremely happy, inspired, joyous, comfortable, etc. Everyone who elicits a feeling of positivity. Think about it. Come up with a list of 25 people. People who inspire you to do better, be better. People who make you feel moved. People whose company you’re craving right now because you miss their laugh or laughing with them. I’m not trying to make you miss anyone or feel sad, there is a point to this, I promise.
Now, on a different piece of paper, make another list. Make a list of the people that are in your life that elicit a negative feeling. It can be anyone. A family member that is always on your case, or saying things that always make you feel bad. An ex or a friend. People that make you feel stressed or anxious. Put people on that list that are in your friend group, or in your life, but make you feel bad or put you down. Anyone who says or does things that make you feel insecure, inferior, stupid or uncomfortable.
Now, take a look at the good list and the bad list. The good list are the people you should surround yourself with after this is all over. We are all quarantined right now, and I’m sure you’ve felt, as everyone has, that feeling of isolation and loneliness. This is the worst part of being social creatures. We crave social interaction, love and connection. So, from now on, moving forward, let’s work to not take our treasured time and energy for granted. The time we share with others should be reserved for those that make us feel good. Who lift us up and are worth our time. Healthy relationships and good friendships. Not the toxic people and toxic relationships that bring us down due to their own insecurities.
SO, see the value in yourself and your time. The people on your toxic friend list, it’s time to cut them out. And now is the best time because you don’t have to face them for at least another month. When all of this is over, spend your time with positive friendships and people who show you love and kindness. You are the average of the five people you spend the most time with. Choose the people who bring your average and your happiness up.
Next task. I want you to walk around your home (I made a Facebook Live about this last week… see below)
https://www.facebook.com/1759007031074310/videos/202121171236407
Walk around your home and write down all of the unfinished projects, small and large tasks, anything that you’ve been putting off. Like reorganizing and cleaning out your cabinets or closets. Hanging pictures, cleaning out your fridge, reorganizing your room, reorganizing your shelves, anything. Call this your tolerations list. Your list of the things in your home and in your life that you tolerate.
After you’ve made your list, write down a deadline of when you will finish or fix each project or item. They can be once per week, but who are you kidding there’s not much else to be doing. And you can do this with items as well. Anything in your home that you’ve been meaning to get rid of, but haven’t gotten around to it yet, toss it. Get negative energy out of your home. Like Marie Kondo said, if it doesn’t bring you joy, get rid of it. Release the negative energy and toxicity from your environment. Any pictures or items that you feel obligated to hold on to, put it somewhere where it won’t bother you.
How to get negative energy out of your house. Get negative energy out of your house.
Make your house nice, clean, and healthy. This is how to create positive energy at home, and how to create good energy in your home.
Print out and decorate quotes and phrases that make you feel empowered and fill your space with them. And also, look for fun pictures you love of places that you went, and good people that you’re with, that elicit a feeling of joy. Print them out and hang them around your house, or around your space. I used to have five hand drawn posters next to my mirror in my bedroom, and every day when I woke up and got ready for work, I would see these quotes and it would fill my heart and spirit. It made me feel happy and empowered, and it’ll work for you too.
Find quotes, phrases and words that speak to you. I have friends that post verses from the bible, because that’s what empowers them. Me, I really love Dr. Seuss.
Whats’s your quote? What’s that one quote that when you hear it, it makes you feel strong and empowered? It gives you life.
Although it can be extremely difficult to let go of our history and of the people, to our dismay or not, have been around and created relationships with, sometimes it has to be done. And the same thing goes with items. I wouldn’t consider myself materialistic or a hoarder but I keep a lot of sentimental things. I keep shoeboxes filled with items from my past healthy relationships. A full storage bin filled with photographs, cards, event tickets and memories. But these are all things that bring me immense joy.
At one point, I was also keeping things that brought bad bad memories that I didn’t love. But I kept them because I was afraid to get rid of them. That if I threw them out, I’d forget the memories.
But I learned something since then, that those things carried negative energy and toxicity and I didn’t want to pollute my space with them anymore. What are some things you’re holding on to, whether it be a physical item, a memory or a person, that don’t make you feel good? That weigh you down. That now, thinking forward, getting rid of it will release toxicity and release negative energy. Think of one thing and commit to getting rid of it today. Find it and throw it out right now.
I got into Young Living because I need to change my life. I wanted more positivity, and Young Living gave me the resources to expedite my bad days into good days. I have anxiety and depression, and when those two things act up, my whole body is down, sometimes for days, weeks or months. This past weekend was an awful weekend for me. I consumed way too much junk food, I cried for a lot of the weekend, and I social-isolated from everyone. Even the people that I love and the person that I live with. Sometimes, I just can’t help it but instead of that being weeks or months, which in the past it has been, it was one day and a half. And that isn’t all due to Young Living, but to the resilience I’ve built up over the last 11 years. The positive self-talk I’ve learned and the principles that I live by.
You have to find and master the things that work for you. For me, it’s essential oils and flower essences. My mom is a flower essence practitioner, and so I usually go to her when I’m having a bad time. And my guilty pleasure is Nicholas Sparks movies. I know. It’s pretty basic. But it’s also looking myself in the mirror and changing my self talk. It’s telling myself that I can succeed and I will succeed instead of beating myself up, to which I did a ton of this weekend.
What’s one thing that works for you on your bad days? Like I said, for me, I watch Nicholas Sparks movies and cover myself in essential oils. And that helps me get out of my funk. That helps me relieve my bad day, and it helps me heal. If you haven’t tried Young Living Essential Oils, I totally recommend them.
www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/oils
Reach out to me and I will happily give you all the information that I have. And if you decide to try it, I’ll pay for your shipping. I believe in them that much.
These principles are the foundations for the content I built. This isn’t a sales pitch and I’m not in it for your money. What I want is your trust. I want you to trust me when I say every program I create for survivors of abuse, survivors of narcissism, or people who need a confidence boost or some additional positivity in their lives, is truly deeply with that in mind. These are the systems and actions I take when I’m in my worst headspace to revitalize myself and get myself back on my feet. I want to help everyone feel as strong as I do on my strongest days because I know what it’s like to feel broken and surrounded by negativity and surrounded by toxicity. It’s hard. It’s so hard to pull yourself out of that. But having the tools ready, it’s like knowing emotional karate. You don’t want to have to use it, but sometimes you need to just to be prepared.
Thank you for listening, and I really hope these principles, ideas and activities will help you change your headspace, change your environment and change your life. What I want is for everybody to change their life into the most positive it can be. And that starts with your environment and your social circle. Once you master those, everything else is a cakewalk. Thank you again for joining me to day. I’m so excited to work with everyone and talk to everyone about what quotes they’ve decorated their space with and the kind of people that inspire them. And the people they are going to spend their time with now when quarantine is over.
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa:
Hey everyone, welcome back to healing from emotional abuse. For the last few weeks, I've brought on survivors of sexual assault to talk a little bit about what they went through, and also how they healed and advice that they have for other survivors. I think it's really important to share our stories. Hence the breaking through our silence podcast, breaking through the silence my book series, I just think that the most important step and the first step towards healing is speaking about it. So if I can find as many voices to share their stories as I can, the hope is, it'll empower other survivors who are still silenced, to break their silence and feel empowered and strong about talking about it. It'll empower other survivors to speak out and tell their story. I just want you to know that you're not alone. And every person that's come on this podcast this month, and shared their story has shared the same goal. We all just want survivors to be unsilenced, to break through that barrier and know that you are never alone, and you have millions of other people who have a shared experience with you to help you through it. This is our last episode for Sexual Assault Awareness Month. And last but not least, I wanted to introduce one of my dear friends, Amy. Amy is a champion. She was abused when she was a child and has overcome so much adversity in relation to that and morphed into this powerhouse, advocate. I'm so honored to bring her on here. She's worked in several capacities with military and civilians. And she continues every single day to fight for and advocate for survivors around the world. Thank you so much for being here. Amy. I'm so excited.
Amy:
Well, thank you for having me.
Marissa:
Would you mind telling us whatever you're comfortable with about your truth about what happened to you?
Amy:
Well, you know, it's a very young, old teenager, right? So we're always like, 14 going on 21. And my friend and I had the really great plan that we were going to go to the party where you had met these younger soldiers, and they invited us to a party. And so we went. And I really liked this one boy. I mean, he was, of course, a man. But I looked at them kind of the same as me. And he kissed me, and I really liked it. And then he wanted to kiss somewhere else in the more private area. And so I went with him, because he was really nice and handsome. And when I told him to stop, he wouldn't stop. And when I told him I was a virgin and started crying. He was like, No, you're not. Even afterwards, like he walked me part of the way home. And then I got caught for being out past curfew. And then when they looked at me, they, they saw what had happened. And you know, it was just kind of an out of body experience. And almost like the trauma that it caused on my family was more than actually the assault. And then some other things happened after that, because I started acting out. Maybe we'll get into that part another time. But I think, you know, he actually tried to make it seem like I was his girlfriend afterwards. I mean, I think that was one of the most bizarre things. So there was this, like, mental fight in my head, about me crying to him and telling him No, and saying that I was a virgin, and then afterwards and acting like he really cared about me. So that really started a bad self image, low self esteem and acting out as a teenager. So I think that that really placed me on a path that I didn't even understand that I was on until I became an adult. And I don't think people really understand that when people are traumatized like that, that they internalize a lot of things and begin to have behaviors that seem counter intuitive of someone that you would house some people think that you would act as a victim of rape, right?
Marissa:
100%
Amy:
I was more comfortable in a combative relationship, where I didn't feel valued. And actually pushed away more healthy people because I didn't feel like I deserved that. And I think that's something that a lot of people deal with when they have been traumatized and haven't been able to have that cognitive behavioral therapy to understand that it's really not about any of your behaviors. So for me, you know, working with clients now, when the general populace as a what were they doing or you know, there, there's things that people can do men and women to avoid being sexually assaulted. It's a really huge trigger for me. You know? So I mean, should there be an expectation, if you and your friend meet a bunch of handsome young men within your age bracket, they were adults, but we weren't. But you still, you know, you as, as a young adult, you don't see a 19-20 year old as being that much different as you. It was like, right before my 15th birthday, and my friend was 16. Right? So we felt we were that age to, even though we, we didn't understand like, emotionally, maturity wise, we weren't. But in your teenage narcissistic brain, you don't see it that way.
Marissa:
And I want to go back to something because you brushed over something that I wanted to definitely comment on. A lot of people, especially if you were assaulted as like a teenager, young adult, when you're still kind of trying to find yourself, you lose that control that control of your body. And a lot of times very often, people will take that lesson as, “well, if people are going to use me like this anyways, if my body's only good for sex, then I want to at least be in control of it.” I mean, even if those are the words that are said, that creates this, like expectation that your body is an item or an object, and then causes a lot of promiscuity.
Amy:
Oh, 100%. Absolutely. Because you feel like that's the only i think it's it's more complicated than than just the promiscuity. It's a real sick, twisted, kind of, like you want to be loved so bad, but you want to be in control, but you only get attention and it's negative attention. It compounds right. So any attention is better than no attention. Right? The negative attention is easier to get.
Marissa:
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And it's, you're right, it's easier to get, and it takes less time and energy for a young woman, all you have to do is you know, wear a tank top in school and all the boys are looking at your shoulders and you know, it's such a double standard.
Amy:
What like a self-fulfilling prophecy too, right.
Marissa:
Yeah, that's what I was going for.
Amy:
It's like the cycle of violence, right? And it's what society feeds off of, and continues the victim blaming cycle, right? Because you as the victim are actually trying to take control of your life. But then you're projecting this other image, which makes people feel like you are not a victim.
Marissa:
Right? And that goes back to what society paints as the perfect victim, if you're not a young girl, hysterically crying, then you're not a real victim, you know? And there's that double standard.
Amy:
Well, you and you take my situation, for example, I was 14, I was a virgin. Right. But I had snuck out of the house, and I drank a Barros & James peach wine cooler And, you know, I was out past curfew. So they took all of those into account and made it to be like somehow my responsibility,
Marissa:
Right, even though your child and not legally even allowed to consent, depending on the state.
Amy:
Well, I was not at an age of consent at all. If you think about it was a drug facilitated sexual assault, you had a 14 year old girl that was being fed wine coolers, and innocent kids lead it to a sexual assault. That is, by definition, the number one rape scenario in the world.
Marissa:
How do people respond when your family was going through it? Did you speak about it at all?
Amy:
Yeah, well, I mean, it was while she was wearing short shorts, and a tank top and she was at the party and she was drinking and she lied. It was all about my behavior.
Marissa:
And not about the fact that somebody took advantage of you as a child.
Amy:
Right. And I think still to this day, there's some issue with you know, our family was sent to a different location away from my dad, because he had a job to do. And he couldn't, you know, there was this whole, like, your family can't be managed in this environment. Right?
Marissa:
Oh, my God. So they forced you guys. Were you living on a base?
Amy:
Yeah. So we were sent back stateside, which is a very normal response for the military.
Marissa:
That's disgusting. So instead of punishing the person who, actually abused you…
Amy:
Our family with separated
Marissa:
That’s disgusting.
Amy:
I'm not crying right now, I might cry. You know, it's weird because, you know, sometimes I do get upset about it. But more often, my response is I’m at a place where it gives me drive. Right? When I talk about it triggers me when people talk about victims behaviors and things like that. I'm just like, well, you think for some reason that, that individual wouldn't have found another vulnerable person to take advantage of and victimize.
Marissa:
Right? If they're going to abuse somebody, it's not always about who, you know, it's a matter of needing to control and have power over someone.
Amy:
It's error and opportunity, right? It's access. It's the same dynamic as why I'm fundamentally against people telling their children to give relatives or friends, “Oh, kids go and give so and so hug, tell them Goodbye, or give them a kiss on the cheek. Go say thank you…” No, quit telling people that we owe them some kind of physical affection for approval.
Marissa:
I agree
Amy: It’s not appropriate.
Marissa:
Yeah, you don't know the situation, you don't know what the child has to know that they are in control their body and if they are uncomfortable hugging somebody or giving someone a kiss, that they do not have to? I absolutely agree.
Amy:
I mean, somehow the kind of legalized prostitution that we have established in the dating world, that somehow a level of doting or flattery, or the level of expenditure for a date somehow equates to some kind of physical repayment.
Marissa:
It's called manipulation. You know, that's why I am fundamentally against the word friend zone. You know, you're not getting friend zone, because you are nice to somebody and they're not interested in you sexually. You were being a friend. And it having an ulterior motive on that friendship is a manipulation of the friendship and of the person.
Amy:
And if you think about it like this, why can't I just want to have sex with somebody just because I feel like it? You know, why should I be obligated because you took me to Smith & Wollensky’s, to an expensive dinner and then drinks on the rooftop at a ritzy bottle service. So now I owe you oral sex. Or maybe like, I'm just having fun with you. And we could have had a picnic in the park and went to your rooftop private deck. And I would just felt like giving you oral sex. It shouldn't matter. There shouldn't be an expectation of economic output somehow gives you physical… Like, why don’t we just start doing dollar for dollar? I mean, I don't know for you if as as a woman you've ever experienced someone being like, well, you paid $150. For dinner, we had a $75 bar tab. So now you're up to $225. Right? So you think that my vagina is worth $225?
Marissa:
That's not nearly enough.
Amy:
Right? So I mean, if we're gonna have an equitable exchange, escorts that don't even give any kind of sexual pleasure at the end of the night make more money than that. So if you just wanted something to sit there and be pretty, we're gonna have to reevaluate this. I'm saying like, this is an issue, right? But somehow it yields to all these other social issues that somehow somebody is nice to you, you owe them something, right. Why can't you just say thank you, and be appreciative and let something …
Marissa:
Build and grow.
Amy:
Yeah, become something organically.
Marissa:
That's what it should be. But I think that, I don't know, people become so greedy, and they value their money more than they value, your ability to make decisions for yourself. I don't owe anybody anything. Nobody owes anyone anything. Not sex, not your body, not nothing, unless it's agreed upon.
Amy:
But those those thought processes yield to the same rape culture, right? It's like why people don't have any kind of, I don't know if anger is the right word I wanted. Okay. So, if a child is sexually abused, right, people are out of control up in arms, right? So if I'm married for 10 years, and my husband gets drunk and comes home and slaps me around a little bit, not enough to bruise me up. Just kind of read my cheeks a little bit and then rapes me. People really don't get excited about that. They don't seem to have this that is the same type of trauma, when it is. When it's someone you know, love and trust, that's kind of like, "Well, you've had sex with him, like, I don't know, over the course of how many years, whatever, once a month times 12 times 10. So whatever, I'm just throwing out numbers, so you've had sex with him? At least 120 times a year. So what what's the problem with this time.” It's kind of how it's looked at, right?
Marissa:
Mm hmm. Yep.
Amy:
You got it on ya. You've been giving it to them anyway. So why are you so upset now? All of these thought processes continue to perpetuate the same thing? Why are rapes going up in our society?
Marissa:
Because we don't address rape culture the right way, we paint a perfect victim. And if you don't sit in that perfect victims, exact identity, you're not a victim.
Amy:
And I mean, and I'm not saying this is the thing, I'm just kind of throwing a thought, is it because women are generally being an empowering themselves in the workplace, and taking on different roles. And so the best way to reduce and take away our power is to sexually harass us, or take our power away by physically assaulting us with rape.
Marissa:
I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. I think it's also just a power struggle.
Amy:
If you go back to the Viking culture, like Viking women used to run the show. And then they t picked the men that were the strongest to have children with their children would survive in their rough surroundings and culture and all of these things. And then they started being overpowered. And they became victims of rape and then the power balance changed.
Marissa:
That's so interesting. I didn't know that.
Amy:
Yeah, so I find as a professional woman, thank God, as professional woman, I have done my best to protect myself and haven't been like, actually raped, but I have been sexually assaulted via rear and grab. You know, you don't even think about it because someone grabbed your rear end. It's not the same level of trauma, but is the same level of I don't really give a shit about you. But what I have experienced quite frequently is when they can't attack my character, or my ability, or my professionalism, they somehow figure out a way to say that I my clothes are somehow too attractive,
Marissa:
Or too small, or, you know, make comments about your body. They do that to me. They used to do that to me all the time.
Amy:
Right? To the point where like, I started wearing turtlenecks to work. One of my friends is like, well, you're not making excuses for but you know, she's fallen into that same. Like, would rather protect herself and go against grain. She's like, “Well, Amy, you know, you shouldn't have gotten a boob job and you wouldn't have so much attention.” I'm like, these are mine. Even if I did get a boob job that, like it has no bearing,. And she's like, “Because even with turtlenecks, you can't hide them.” I'm like, Well, I can't do anything with them. Because this is how God made my body. And so what if I would have gotten a boob job? What's the big deal? And she was right. It didn't matter if I was wearing a sweater or a turtleneck, or a V neck or a dress or a sweater-dress or Michael Kors dress or whatever. There's certain things it is just what it is. And somehow I'm responsible for you taking, staring at me and trying to take my power by saying there's something about my body that makes me less valuable at work?
Marissa:
That it's disgusting. And it's just a means to silence women and silence people by making them feel inferior in their bodies. It's not your fault that you were born with boobs. It's and it's not your fault. If you buy boobs, you know, if you haven't you make you can't control anyone else’s behavior. Because you did something for you. That's not your problem. That is the offender's problem always. They're the ones that make the choice.
Amy:
Sometimes not even the offender. That is the worst issue. Other people his opinions, like perpetuate rape culture. Yeah, I'm like you guys are helping the rapist? Yo, what's going on here?
Marissa:
People who perpetuate rape culture, encourage rapists, you're 100% on point. We know we make it so easy for them. Because we're already telling people that they shouldn't be who they are in their bodies and we're telling people they shouldn't wear certain things and if I'm comfortable wearing booty shorts and it tank top to a party. And I want to that does not mean somebody gets to touch or comment or take any part of my body that is not theirs. It is still my body.
Amy:
Well, I'll tell you an interesting phenomenon. I have never in all my life, the safest I’ve felt in my body is being a nude beach. Yes, like I didn't feel ogled, I wasn't stared at, I wasn't hit on, I was just left alone, to be in my own body and my own safe space, and enjoy all the vitamin D to every part of my parts.
Marissa:
I feel like that's because everyone's in the same vulnerable place. If you can feel vulnerable, you know, in your body or naked, but everyone is showing all they've got, you know, so what makes you so different from everyone else?
Amy:
Exactly. Well, and I think there's also hard rules, no cameras, no sexual behavior, you know, all of these things. There no creep, under a tent, or under an umbrella with a big hat, you know, taking secret pictures of people.
Marissa:
That makes sense. And other cultures like other countries are very cavalier about nude beaches. I think America has a big problem with nudity. Whereas other countries have a big problem with the violence we portray in our media, we have a problem with the way that they are more sexually open or aware.
Amy:
Even being working in rape crisis, working with child sexual assault. If you are against a rape culture, that somehow you are a man hating, sexist, feminist, right? And that you don't enjoy sex; That all men are bad; That you don't like men; And you hate sex. And that is completely bad and you should be some kind of nun. It's strange, and not liking rape does not mean you don't like sex. They are not the same thing.
Marissa:
Exactly. That's what I was just about to say.
Amy:
I needed to get it through people like schools, rape crisis counselors and people that intervene in rape situations and help people get the help they need so they can get their power back, do not hate men, and do not hate sex.
Marissa:
I've never heard that one. But I appreciate you bringing that up.
Amy:
I want to put this out as a public service announcement for men and women, regardless of who you like to have the sex with. If you are respectful of people's bodies, if you are respectful of their time and space, and where they're at emotionally, and you give them love and honesty, they will want to make love to you, if they are attracted to you. Because our bodies are built to want to have sexual pleasure. You know, we are one of the only other mammals in the world that have sex for pleasure. We're supposed to like it. It's supposed to be enjoyable, it's healthy for you. It's healthy, to have orgasms, to release those endorphins. It's healthy to share that intimacy with somebody that you trust. All of that is healthy. What is not healthy, is taking somebody's body for your own pleasure and abusing them, and hurting them.
Marissa:
Absolutely. Thank you for that PSA. So what are you doing? So we know you're working with rape crisis. What do you do? What are you doing? What projects are you working on?
Amy:
So right now, we've had a lot of forward movement and being more educated, in child sexual abuse, and cycle’s of violence, and families with pedophilia. And we've been more spoken out about rape situations and things like that. But unfortunately, from my perspective as a professional, we have gone away from like the grassroots of actually helping the people that have been traumatized, to spending millions of dollars on these overarching organizations that kind of leave the victims at the wayside. And don't get to the root of the problem and take the initial crisis, and don't follow that person through to the end state. Also, working within the confines that you know, money has become an issue. And there's been a lot of abuse of power where people haven't been able to get the help that they need, because they're stuck in these organizations that have a very structured hierarchy and giving people an alternative source to find that help outside of those confines.
Marissa:
No, it does. When I used to work for the military, one of the things that I would do is help people that were sexually assaulted, either on deployment or not. And I would very seldom connect them to people, military related. And I would outsource to other resources to therapists and programs that were not related to the military. Because the way the military handled it was so regimented, and truly, like incorrect. It wasn't in good conscience. I couldn't in good conscience, relate them to like the VA, who I know is not going to help them, or to their commander who I knew was not going to help them.
Amy:
Well, I think help looks different, right? Say, for example, that I work at McDonald's, and I need this job to take care of my family. And I've worked there, maybe nine months, in the shift supervisor has worked there10 years, and it’s franchise, McDonald's, and he's friends with the owner andnd the manager. And I become sexually assaulted, and then it becomes the owner of the McDonald’s right, absolute right, undeniable, like they have carte blanche authority over whether their shift leader - that gives them the most returns, the most capital, the largest producing revenue - that owner gets to decide whether that shift leader that raped to me gets a slap on the hand or actually punished. How well do you think that that works?
Marissa:
Probably not? Well, I'm pretty sure that you the employee, are expendable. And the person they've had this relationship with is easier to believe, because they, “Know them better.”
Amy:
And they are equitable for them, right?
Marissa:
Mm hmm.
Amy:
And then my other colleagues, that also worked for the same shift leader, well, that shift leader all gives them all the best like shifts. I'm another single mother that works there. And that shift leader knows that I have to be off on Mondays because my kid has speech therapy. And they always make whether I have to work on Mondays or not, they always make arrangements for me that I always am off to go take my childhood speech therapy. Am I going to retaliate against you that are going to jack up my way of life? Am I going to side with the shift leader? Or, am I going to support my colleague?
Marissa:
That's a really good analogy. It's a great way to put it. You're right, because there are so many sides to the stories and so many people being affected, that we kind of lose sight of the one important factor and that safety.
Amy:
And there's no oversight, right? Right. As the owner of McDonald's, I can be like, “Well, you know, in order to protect my product, to protect my brand, then none of the things that we're doing to punish the shift leader is releasable to the public.” Now, let me ask you, let's see, let's pick a town. I don't know just say Boulder, Colorado, right. And that McDonald's owner owns 10 stores, right? That shift leader then gets promoted after they raped the one person. And we don't know what happened to them, because it might leak our French fry recipe out, right. So then that shift leader gets promoted to be the regional shift leader. And they raped two more people, and they keep their job. And then they raped five more people. So, now we're up to eight people sexually assaulted by one person, one shift leader, but he makes a lot of money. He does a good job for that McDonald's in Boulder. And this is the like a scenario. There's no such thing didn't happen in Boulder. Like, I'll just give that caveat. This is a made up scenario. And that eighth person that gets sexually assaulted, finds out that back in the day, there was a number one rape victim, they got screwed over. And they call that person be like, you know what, I'm sorry, that happened to you, too. You know, I know. I'm the eighth person who's done this to. What the hell? Then, the first and the eighth person decides to go outside of that McDonald's hierarchy. And they go to the press and the press is like holy shit. Now what do you think the community in Boulder, Colorado would say to that?
Marissa:
They get really mad that they allowed, I hope, I hope they get really mad that McDonald's owner allowed that person to go on a raping spree. I mean, I hope..
Amy:
I think that they would boycott that McDonald's, because they're allowing people to be raped in order to make money. To protect their brand,
Marissa:
Exactly. What's the economic value of a person, the monetary value of a human being?
Amy:
So you take that scenario, and you feed it into the overarching hierarchy of the military? Who does have the power to say, you can't know about that? Because it might affect national security? Where does that leave somebody? Especially service members that still cannot utilize a lot of our other given rights? Because the Fairness Doctrine?
Marissa:
What's that?
Amy:
That says that service members can't sue the military for damages.
Marissa:
They're not allowed to sue at all?
Amy:
They can’t. There's a caveat right now for medical malpractice, but it's very, very narrow.
Marissa:
Hmm. So the military can allow someone to hurt you, you can transfer them, they can mistreat you, they can gaslight you, transfer you wherever they want, they can take away your rights and privileges as a service member - which most of the time are what give you value, your ability to you know, have a gun and your ability to defend. They took both those things away from you. And you can't sue them for any of it. You can't retaliate for any of it.
Amy:
You can't protect yourself. I can tell you, I've talked to many service members active and retired and medically discharged, that they were told to suck it up.
Marissa:
I believe the term that I heard a lot was “Unfuck yourself.”
Amy:
That's another term that they use quite frequently, but no, and I want to make it very clear. It depends on who's in charge, right? Like not all owners and McDonald's not all leaders military are bad. But when everything relies on that person's good or bad decision making, and there's no oversight, where do you have it? I don't think that the general public also knows that a commander in the military can decide to accept a level of risk. It's their decision. And they can be advised, but nobody has there's no force function.
Marissa:
That's a lot of power for one person.
Amy:
It is. And then you add in the cloak of we can't be transparent because the national security. There is nothing about somebody being raped or sexually assaulted, that has an adverse effect on national security. The one thing that would have adverse effect on national security is rapists being allowed to continue to rape people, especially in a deployed environment. How mission ready do you think your soldiers, men and women, service members, sailors Airmen; How well do you think they're going to be able to carry out their mission to protect our freedom if they're worried that someone's going to sexually assault them? And oh, by the way, if you say anything, you need to figure it out yourself.
Marissa:
So what can we as advocates and the public do to help service members feel more powerful or to feel more protected? Like how can we help?
Amy:
And that's part of what we're working to establish. Yes, you are service members, and yes, you have different confines, because you are. But there, there are certain things that can't be taken away from you. If you're a victim of a violent crime, there are federal victim crime rights that have to be upheld by the military, as well as in civilian world. And those things are not being held to a standard. You have a right to be reasonably heard. You have a right to be conferred with. You know, and some people get confused about what that means. If I'm a victim of sexual assault, I have the right to talk to the person that's adjudicating that crime. So, I get to have my say in court. Regardless of how they dispose of it. Whether, you know it goes to a court process or not. I, as a victim, get to say, because this person did this to me, it adversely affected my life, in this way. Like I get to say that. I get to be informed of the proceeding. Very, very simple, transparent things that are not occurring
Marissa:
And aren't a risk to public safety.
Amy:
No. And there's no force function when it doesn't happen. Okay, so they didn't do it. So what? Well, the same people that have the ability to fix it, are the same people that are not doing the things that they're supposed to that's been in federal law since the Reagan administration.
Marissa:
So what can what can we do to support service members going through this?
Amy:
Well, I think that they need to know that there is military advocacy available, but there's also other nonprofits that are also federally funded, that they can get services through. That know what their rights are. If the same owner of McDonald's is like, “Okay, well, this person I hired to be your advocate." How comfortable are you gonna feel going to that person knowing that the same guy or girl that's paying the paycheck of your rapist is also paying the paycheck of your advocate?
Marissa:
It just seems like a conflict of interest.
Amy:
It's an exact conflict of interest.
Marissa:
Where did the loyalty lie JAGs aren't going to go against the military, because that's who pays them, it makes sense. They're not going to bite the hand that feeds them.
Amy:
The legislation came up with this beautiful thing, because during Article 32 Hearings, which is basically like a grand jury indictment, they were violating victims rights all over the place. Every person that, that person has ever had any kind of sexual contact with or any kind of flaw, as it would be seen in their personality, (which don’t think it's a flaw to go to behavioral health,) but they were using those things as flaws. Like, “this person's crazy. And they have sex with everybody.” And so it was brought up to Congress, and they're like, “Okay, well, we're gonna enact this law for the National Defense Authorization Act, that deeds folks get their own lawyers,” which are like, if you're familiar with any kind of civilian court processes, or, you know, anything that with child protections, like a guardian ad litem, right? It's, it's supposed to be just for that person. Except the person that rates that lawyer, or gives them their performance employment evaluations for promotions and what not, is the same lawyer that the JAG, the Judge Advocate General, for the commander that decides whether to prosecute their case or not. And then let's add another little addition to that. That same lawyer that is supposed to protect the rights of victims, and they do the best job that they can. There’s a saying in the military: Never take on what your rank can handle. So if you know anything about rank structure: You’ve got Captain, then you have Major, Lieutenant Colonel, Full-Bird Colonel, which not a lot of people make Full Bird Colonel ever in their career, then you have a One Star General and a Two Star General. Right? So there are five ranks in between that captain, who is that victims lawyer. You’re a Captain for about seven years. You’re a Major for about three years. Lieutenant Colonel, four to five years. Colonel three to four, depending. So, that you have rank and experience on top of it, right? So you're usually in your 50s before you become a general. So you not only have five ranks on top of me, but you have probably about, at least, 15 to 17 years of experience that I'm fighting against.
Marissa:
It’s not a fair battle.
Amy:
It's like allowing a freshman to wrestle a senior out of their weight class.
Marissa:
Yeah, it just it seems like a losing battle. And that person is your superior like you can't in the military structure, you can't disrespect somebody of a higher rank than you there's an authority in your rank, like you said.
Amy:
Yeah, never take on what your rank and authority can't handle. They're gonna do the best that they can, but they're also not protected.
Marissa:
So what we need to do is create a new system, which is what your coalition is doing, right?
Amy:
So what the coalition is, at this juncture, is an alternative advocacy group that knows the confines of the military. So, any service member that reaches out to this coalition can rest assured that the military cannot press us.
Marissa:
I love that.
Amy:
You can't. You can have idle threats all day long,
Marissa:
But they can’t influence it because it's not funded by the military.
Amy:
We don't have any military contracts. There's a lot of rape crisis organizations that have million dollar contracts with the Department of Defense.
Marissa:
So if we wanted to support this coalition, how can we do that?
Amy:
Well, we're at our infancy right now, I think that there's more to follow on, if people want to support it, that we can give them some contact information. And the website is in development stage right now. Right now you guys can just send us all your good love vibes. As we get it going. We're going to try to launch very soon, but we don't have like a hard date. But we can do a follow on podcast and talk more about that.
Marissa:
Of course, I'll update the description when we have more solid info, but I'll put the website and everything in the description. So if you want to learn more, at a later date, you're more than welcome to go to the website, send some emails, look at the amazing work that Amy's doing with this coalition and her amazing team.
Amy:
And if you want to also you can, you can add the Shadley Editions as part of our coalition. So, retired Major General Robert Shadley, he part of the coalition, he and his wife, Camilla. And he blogs about this stuff all the time. And he was the only commanding officer that actually conducted a proper investigation. He wrote a book about it called The Game: Unraveling Military Sex Scandals. And he busted wide open the sex scandal that was going on in Aberdeen Proving Ground and that training environment. And he did it the right way. He says all the time, he writes in his book, “You will be more successful in the military, if you commit a sexual offense than you would be if you reported one.” And I think that speaks volumes.
Marissa:
That's a really strong statement.
Amy:
And he loves the military. And I want to be very clear, there's not any of us that don't support, love and cherish what, you know, service members do. And we don't want to do anything that would adversely affect them. But what we do want is for people to understand that it's wrong to punish somebody for reporting their sexual assault. It's wrong. And it's not okay. It's wrong to retaliate against people who stand up for victims of sexual assault and harassment. And there is no place outside of the military, that gives people a venue to say, “Hey, this happened, and it's not okay. And I need help.” And there's not any other organization that I'm aware of, that actually provides direct Client Services, advocacy, to people that are suffering because their sexual assault or harassment are being mishandled. We love Protect Our Defenders. We collaborate with them all the time. They're very legislation focused, and we support them, and we support each other. But legislation is amazing, and we support all of their efforts. But every person matters and direct services to clients matters. You know, we have many families that participate in the coalition that their children have committed suicide, because their children did not receive the support and help that they're legally allowed and had a right to have. And one child committing suicide is too much. But there are far too many young men and women killing themselves because they were so badly harassed, teased, blackmailed, after they reported their sexual assault. And there's no excuse for it. And these families that their children have, could suicide, you know, receive copies of investigations that are so highly redacted, they don't even know what on earth happened. Nowhere else in the world could people contribute to the death of your child and not be transparent with you and what people did and didn't do?
Marissa:
That's disgusting. Thank you so much for sharing your story and for all the amazing work you're doing to help survivors in the military and outside of the military. We'll definitely do another interview. When your coalition is out of the infancy phase.
Amy:
Yes, this is like a like a preview. In the preview, yeah, we'll do it. We'll do a launch party.
Marissa:
Perfect. I will put in the description of this podcast the date. I'll keep it up to date with information about our launch and the website and everything. Thank you so much, Amy.
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Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. As you know, April is Sexual Assault Awareness Month. And every week this month, I've had an interview with a strong, amazing champion, and I'm so excited to bring on my friend Sarah today. Sarah is an incredible, strong, beautiful champion and advocate, she has overcome her own personal traumas and paid it forward by volunteering with local rape crisis centers. She's a passionate advocate and wants to give every survivor their voice back. Hi, Sarah! Thank you so much for being here today.
Sarah: Hi, Marissa. Thank you so much for having me.
Marissa: Of course, I'm so excited to talk to you. So let's get started. Sarah, would you mind telling us your story?
Sarah: Not at all. It's been about 20 years, we're going to round it, since my assault. And I was a going on a single mom of three kids. I was married at the time. This was an acquaintance of myself and my husband. Someone that we were friends with, both he and his wife. I was put into a position of being alone with someone that I did not trust, and did not listen to those little hairs that stood up on the back of my neck, and was alone in a car and was violently assaulted.
Marissa: Oh, my God.
Sarah: I was in the process of a divorce and being separated at the time. I had three young children at home under the age of eight or nine, all three at home, that I was responsible for and taking care of. And unfortunately, not that every assault isn't but, the assaults to a very violent turn. And I had some major medical issues and definitely needed medical attention and was unequipped, I think emotionally, to share what had happened or expose what had happened to anyone. I didn't for a while, and meaning a while during that day, I sat in the shower for many hours. Sitting in the shower, trying to figure out what to do. And ended up going to a work event and collapsing on the ground from a migraine. Just told everybody made my parents come pick me up that was outside. They picked me up brought me to a treatment center, not like the emergency room, but like an emergency treatment center that was 24 hours. I think they definitely knew and had made some suggestions to see if I wanted to disclose anything at the time. And I was very adamant in “nothing happened." And I'm just sick. And I had some, you know, medical issues at the time anyway, and was not going to admit to anything, because if I didn't admit to it, and my young brain at the time, it wasn't true, and it didn't happen.
And I kind of went about the next almost six years with that mindset.
And I worked with children with behavioral issues, and many of them came from very difficult situations. And a lot of times abuse was brought up. And I realized that I was obviously not handling the situation very well within myself and started to disclose then to some trusted people. And I worked closely with a police department and disclosed to a friend of mine, and wanted to know what to do. Because one of the things that I struggled with the most was that I did not report and that was a huge, huge struggle for me. My assault resulted several years later, in a full radical hysterectomy, due to injury, as well as, I was susceptible before but due to injury from the assault. I attempted to report five or six years later, more for my healing process. I'd gone to many therapists at that point in time and wasn't ready to be honest with myself until I had one that finally said, "Okay, cut the shit and let's talk about your trauma.” And I think it took me a while well over 10 years to really talk about what happened to me and the story and disclose everything.
I obviously didn't date for a very long time, being single at the time and going through all that, I needed to focus on my kids and me and being super mom and doing all those things that you needed to do. And I really thought that that was what was going to heal me. And it didn't, it blew up in my face, which I think happens, and you know, you kind of move on, and I think I'm the healthiest I've ever been emotionally with dealing with the trauma.
Marissa: Thank you so much for sharing all of that. That's so heart-wrenching, you know, going through that and just the person that you are now and the person you've become, in spite of that, and after that it's so eye opening, and I'm so proud of you.
Sarah: Thank you.
Marissa: Of course. You said you threw yourself in parenting and being super mom. Did that give you any sort of relief? Or how did the kids handle it? I know that your kids still don't know.
Sarah: My daughter is aware. My sons are not. Okay, my now husband is well aware. I think in my situation. One of the things that I didn't mention was the relationship that we had with my rapist. I felt very, very betrayed by my husband at the time for putting me in a known, risky situation. And I take full ownership of putting myself in that situation. But I also have a lot of anxiety and anger towards him for that and I've since, I think, let go of that. But I couldn't I guess at the time, I couldn't emotionally focus on anything but my kids. I kind of just tried my best to put it out of my mind. And I'm very thankful for having my kids there, because it's I think the only way I really survived it.
Marissa: That's beautiful. How did it feel when you finally started talking about it? Like did it give you a sense of relief? Or was it terrifying?
Sarah: Yes, is the answer to that question. I think I was so overwhelmed with all different emotions, fear and relief and anger and going through kind of a mourning period of trying to figure out who I was. And I was doing that anyway, with going through a divorce and going from being someone's daughter, to someone's wife to someone's mother to never really finding who I was. I think all of that although was a good distraction, there were still things that were difficult to disclose and difficult to deal with at the time. And sometimes even now, I mean, there's things that still trigger. You just can't turn those off. You can recognize them, but you can't turn them off. And as hard as you try to do that there's always going to be things and I think I feel more guilty now when some of those come up. Because something will remind me of that person and it's not the other person's fault. This poor stranger who's walking down you know, the, the hall in the mall is not at fault for wearing the cologne he’s wearing, and that has acted for a trigger for me.
Marissa: That's really, really common that your sense of smell is directly linked to your long term memory. So it'll be the most likely to trigger somebody or to bring back a memory. So I've actually spoken to a lot of people that have said the smell of cologne will trigger them because a certain cologne reminds them of someone.
Sarah: And I think for me the confusion lied that, I didn't realize what it was that was triggering me and didn't realize that I was being triggered. I just felt panicked. And trying to deal with those feelings and recognize them to take a breath and say, “Okay, this is what it is, you know, you're not there, you're not in it. Get away from it.” Is so important for me now. And they happen fewer and farther between and I think when I was dealing with it, one of my fears of dealing with it and facing it, believe it or not, was forgetting details.
Marissa: Interesting,
Sarah: Which coming from the background that I come from I find really interesting. I spent all these years trying to forget and then was fearful of forgetting because then they weren't going to have to take the responsibility of knowing that it happened if I forgot.
Marissa: What do you mean?
Sarah: In my head, I, and I remember saying this to my awesome therapist that finally did help bring this out. I was afraid that I would forget dates or details or times. And that would like, somehow let him off the hook. Okay, in my, in my brain, let him off the hook, like it was okay, because if I don't remember it, then it's okay. Oh, they're so into thought process.
Marissa: Okay, that's so interesting. So at the end of the day, like you were focusing on making sure he was held accountable without realizing it was kind of at your psyches expense.
Sarah: Exactly, and I think that was part of my I struggled and struggled and struggled with the guilt of not reporting, and for so long and was not treated very well, obviously, five or six years later, when I did try to report it was it was not received very well. And I did it more for me and my therapy and therapeutic purposes. And it kind of blew up in my face. But I was glad that I did it. Now I can say I was glad that I did that. And I know he was held accountable for something else in the future. And that gives me I think, a little bit of peace of mind, knowing that someone else had the courage to do what I couldn't do at the time.
Marissa: And that's okay. I hope you don't beat yourself up about that, because you only about 5% of cases are actually reported.
Sarah: Right, I'm getting better. I think that I'm forgiving myself a little bit in the sense that my focus had to be my children. And I don't think I could have done both.
Marissa: It would have been a lot to handle three kids as a single mom, and oh, you know, all the emotions that spring up I was going through a divorce,
Sarah: I was going through medical issues that were exacerbated by the assault, and it was just my life was crumbling down. You know, as far as I was concerned, and I just needed to keep my head above water.
Marissa: Exactly, you got to do what you have to do to keep yourself safe and survive.
Sarah: And that's what I did. And you can't go back. But you can can't change the future, but you can certainly change the ending. And that's what I'm trying to do. And I think it enables me to support other survivors and warriors to do what they feel is right for them in their heart because there is no right or wrong answer. And you can't live with those regrets in your, in your heart or in your head.
Marissa: I love that. That's a really strong statement. You can't survive with those thoughts floating around you. You know you have to heal in order to get yourself sound and stable and take care of yourself. So speaking about healing, what did you do that really helped you heal? You went to therapy and found a therapist that you love.
Sarah: I found a therapist that has since retired. How dare he?! And was very surprised that the therapist that I did find that helped me tremendously was a man. I thought oh, how is this ever going to work? But he was fabulous and just really delve in and was patient yet firm with getting me to deal with the things I needed to deal with. I was a big journaler always have been always wrote things always wrote stories always wrote poetry I always wrote, began writing letters that I never send.
Marissa: That's my favorite thing to tell people to do.
Sarah: Yep, began writing letters that I never send begun. Alternate things to get me grounded when necessary. I had a great support system that I didn't always lean on with my husband now, because sometimes that's hard. And that's no fault of his that those were my issues. And I think for me, the journaling and the therapy, for sure, was huge. And allowing myself to move forward and deal with the fact that you can you can't go back to the past and you can't change the past. And one of the things that I found the most interesting that the therapist ever told me was, I once went and you know, we all deal with stuff on a daily basis. And you know, we have a blended family now, which I adore and we have struggles. You know, their life is a struggle. It's a beautiful struggle, hopefully most of the time, but it can be a struggle. And I remember having a challenging issue, I think medically and said, You know what, I don't understand. I've been through all this stuff in my past and I have really suffered and really, you know, made great strides to move forward in the future, and now I'm being knocked down again. And he kind of said to me what gives you the right, what makes you think you have the right to think that the world stops for you? And I thought, well, that was mean you're supposed to be on my side.
But it resonated with me and it was something that kind of helped me ground myself and say, okay, you're not always what the world revolves around. And just because you've struggled in the past doesn't make you immune from struggling in the future, and use the struggles to make you stronger, not knock you down.
Marissa: Yeah, I have a friend who just put out a book about how failures, the beginning of your success. And I think that's so interesting. And I think it kind of connects here where everything that happens, yeah, everything that happens in your life is, is a test. And it's either going to make you sink or swim. And the point is to make you swim, to give you that power, and to make you stronger, and give you the strength and courage to get better, you know, to keep pushing and keep swimming.
Sarah: Absolutely. And I never bought into that, especially after this happened, they never bought that everything happens for a reason, because there isn't a reason for this to happen. But you have to make the best of what you have. And you have to move forward, there aren't choices in that. You need to move forward, and you need to get stronger. And now being a parent of adult children, I always parented with a thought in mind, you don't raise children, you raise adults. I have daughters, and I look at how I would want them to react and you know, sometimes I've learned as a parent also that your kids don't necessarily learn from your mistakes, they have to learn from their own. But you have to lead by example. And I may not have done what I felt was the right thing in the long run at the time, but I had to do what was right for me in hopes that they see the strength that I had to get to where I am now.
Marissa: If you're comfortable answering this question, I'm curious, how did you tell your daughters, what did you say to them, because they're older, now they're in their 20s, or 30s.
Sarah: They're in their 20s, I told so we have a blended family. So my daughter, I consider them online. So I do have a daughter and a stepdaughter, the only one of our children, that nose is my daughter, I actually ended up sharing with her when I was doing my training for becoming an advocate. And she was going to come with me, we were going out of town for this training session for a week. And she was going to come with me and I felt that I didn't want it to come out any other way other than from my mouth. And she had also had recently at the time, and this was quite a long time ago, had recently come out of an abusive-type relationship in college. And we were getting her on the road to health again, both physically and emotionally. And I felt that I owed it to her to be honest with her. It was a very quick but difficult conversation to have. There are many details she does not know and I don't feel that it's necessary for her to know. She's never really asked, but as always been very thankful of me for sharing.
Marissa: Thank you for sharing that I feel like a lot of people struggle with not knowing how to tell their kids. I think it's really important that that they do my parents Well, my mom shared with me a an abusive situation that she had when she was younger, but not till after I had already experienced mine.
Sarah: I had the same experience actually.
Marissa: Right. And as helpful as it is after the fact like, Okay, I'm not alone. And you do understand where I'm coming from thinking back me probably maybe because like you said, you know, sometimes kids have to experience things for themselves to truly learn. And this probably would have been one of them anyways, but maybe I could have been better equipped to handle mine. Or maybe I would have shared more with her about it, had I known that she would have understood what I was going through? So I don't know, I just don't think there's any specific system. I think that it's important that we share though.
Sarah: I think I was glad that I shared. I didn't share with you mentioned your mom, I didn't share with my mom until many years later when I ended up having my hysterectomy. She was in the office with me with my doctor. And the question came out. I hadn't shared really much publicly, and it was basically in the parking lot of the hospital.
Marissa: Oh my god.
Sarah: And I'm glad that it did come out. It was that was definitely a relief feeling. But it was obviously not what I had anticipated. That being or looking like at the time and very supportive and was wonderful through it. But wasn't I mean, I don't think it was until recently maybe within the last couple years that my sister even knew, because at this point, it's part of my story. It's not who I am.
Marissa: See, I like that and it doesn't define us. I find that generally our families are the last people we tell because we want to protect them. Or we're afraid of their reaction or, I mean a myriad of reasons for the same reason we don't tell certain people, but I only told my mom because I started writing Breaking Through the Silence: The Journey to Surviving Sexual Assault. And technically, I've still never told my dad, but I mean, he owns my book. So I'm sure he knows. He's a smart man, he knows what I do for a living. So I think that sharing the story is good. I think it's definitely scary at first.
Sarah: I spoke at an event for an Advocacy Center. And I think that's when my mom disclosed fully to my dad. I think he knew something went on, I don't think he knew stuff and my dad is my father's 84 years old. So he's not and wasn't at the time, but still was older and you know, very doesn't want to hear that stuff. And my mom was very adamant in telling him because they were going to be at this event. It was a fundraising event, and I was speaking in a way I, you might want to give him a heads up. So he's not shell shocked when I say what I have to say. So it's weird, and we never really discussed it. I've discussed a little bit with my mom, and you know, our relationship is, we have a good relationship. I'm very cautious protective of my feelings in our relationship, I think so. It's not something that, you know, we sit around and discuss every day, but it's not something I you know, I have adult sons that, I don't know, if I will ever have that conversation. I'm just not sure
Marissa: And that's okay. It's all a comfort thing. I'm in the mindset of the more we talk about it, the more power we take away from abuser, I say, you know,
Sarah: I definitely agree. And I think that I hopefully did not raise dumb children. And I'm sure that they realized that there's something there. But I am just not comfortable with it. At this point, you know, I don't want to add to their stress of their daily lives, and it's not something that they need to worry about or think about,
Marissa: Right. And you're okay, you know, you you're a solid, stable person, it's not like you are wishy washy or all over the place, or emotionally unstable, like, you're okay. And they don't have to worry about you,.
Sarah: Right. I think even when I was going through the hardest times with it, when I wasn't dealing with it, and it was kind of coming to bite me in the ass, so to speak, I always was able to maintain, and felt that I needed to maintain that, “I'm okay, you're okay, and everything is fine,” stability for them, because they didn't have that anywhere else. And I always wanted to be that soft place to fall for my kids. And I needed to make sure that even though there were times that I don't think I really was okay, that I was okay enough to handle it on my own and on my own terms.
Marissa: You're amazing. Thank you for all the work
Sarah: You do what you got to do.
Marissa: That's true. I mean, you're like Superwoman, you like jumped into action when you needed to, and you were that soft place to land for them. And they probably didn't know any of the details of what was going on, which is an extremely strong attribute. And I hope you pat yourself on the back. Of course. What advice would you give to survivors listening?
Sarah: That's a question that has been asked so many times through advocacy as well. Number one, realize it's not your fault, which everybody tells you and it's a tough thing to swallow when you're in it in the moment, because I will tell you I didn't believe that nobody else would believe it. Nobody else believes that when you tell them that, but it's not. And it's allow yourself to heal allow yourself to grieve because I think for myself, I went through a grieving process. Because although it doesn't define who we are, it does take a piece of you away and I think that I was grieving that loss. It was just like all this Coronavirus stuff is going on now. And this is new territory for everybody in the world that was very new territory for my world. I didn't expect it. I didn't know it. Nobody gives you a heads up, hey, this is what's going to happen. And it turns your world upside down. But know in your heart that it will get easier. It doesn't go away. But you learn different methods to incorporate that into a new norm. And rely on the people that are there to help you. Lean on people as much as you can when you are ready to talk. Talk. There's advocacy centers out there, there's strangers, there's online things and if you feel you have nobody write it in a book, put it down, you know, not necessarily in a published book, but write it down. And if you are afraid somebody is going to find it, burn it. But get those feelings out. Get those thoughts out. Put them down on paper, talk to yourself in the mirror, scream into a pillow. Get those feelings out. Don't bottle it up inside you.
Marissa: Thank you so much. I love that. And I really like the comparison to Coronavirus. In my head and it's so true. Nobody knows. I don't know what to do. Everyone's lost every new use and in crisis mode and that's exactly how you feel when you're surviving. So that was really awesome.
Sarah: You go into that, like you said, into crisis mode, you go into that protective. Now what do I do, because I don't know what to do. So now what, so you just have to take it minute by minute, sometimes not even day by day and just kind of move forward with how the new norm is going to work itself through,
Marissa: Exactly got to take care of the basic necessities first. And then when everything is stable, it's like the hierarchy of needs, you know? When your shelter and necessities are stabilized, then you can move on to the next one and the next one, next one. And then you can heal and rebuild yourself.
Sarah: And find a place for you, internally and externally that you can go and it's just your quiet retreat, whether it be a small little place in an office, a closet, a bedroom, make that place your comfort zone, make that place your spot where you can go and just breathe when you need to
Marissa: I love it. Thank you so much, Sarah, for being here today and for discussing all of these actually, like very insightful, great topics. And I really appreciate everything that you said and your willingness to share and all the advocacy and beautiful work that you do with me, in my businesses in my nonprofit and in the community. You're amazing and you're so strong and I am so inspired by you every single day.
Sarah: Well, thank you for all the work that you do. And thank you for sharing it all with me and allowing me to be a part of it.
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. I just wanted to remind everyone that April is Sexual Assault Awareness Month and to be aware of what's happening in your community. Your local rape crisis center should be holding several events, including a Denim Day and a Walk A Mile In Her Shoes and various other really fun events. Even local colleges will have some. Look into them. They're a lot of fun to partake. There's just a ton of fun activities and events to do around town to support your community and support your local survivors and be involved. As you know, for Sexual Assault Awareness Month. I'm doing live interviews with survivors every week. Today we have my amazing friend Kendra, she is a phenomenal champion. She is so strong and she's overcome some really horrific events in her life. And I'm so honored to have her on here. So welcome Kendra.
Kendra: I was I think 11 years old. So, I was in the fifth grade. And I had met a friend she was new to our school new to my class, and we got along really well. And we would walk home from school every day together. And that quickly turned into she would come to my house after school; I would go to her house after school. And we spent pretty much all of our time together when we weren't in school, or doing other like family related things. And we kind of had been building up building up building up. And finally, we decided like, oh, let's have a sleepover. So of course, like her parents cleared it. My mom cleared it and it was like the one friend who parents my mom had never met before. So, she was a little bit hesitant, but it was literally a block over from the house. She'd met the girl, she felt very comfortable. She knew that if anything happened, it was within walking distance at home, maybe two to three minutes. So, she okayed it and we had just like a normal night. What girls do. We ate Top Ramen, we watched Halloween. And we went to bed and we were sleeping.
And I woke up I have no idea what time it was. I woke up because I kept feeling something tickling my leg. That made me very uncomfortable and I kept thinking there was like a bug on me or something. And I kept kind of just brushing my leg and swatting it away. And I also noticed it was really, really cold. And I had my back turned, I guess towards like the outside of the bed. And I woke up and opened my eyes, I could see the window was open and I could see that the TV was on, which wasn't abnormal to me. We'd fallen asleep watching movies, the window being open was a little bit weird. And I remember thinking that. I rolled over and there was nobody there. So again, I thought, okay, I don't know what's going on. I just kept brushing my leg And I fell back asleep. And I don't know how much time had passed But I woke up again. Because from the waist down, I didn't have clothes on any more. My shorts and my underwear had been pulled completely down And I kind of sat there, my eyes barely open. And I just remember, I don't know what was being played on TV. But I remember the background being really blue in the whole room was illuminated in blue. I opened my eyes and there was a man sitting on the edge of the bed. And he was just running his hands up and down my legs. He had lifted my shirt up. And immediately I remember thinking, I'm in trouble. Okay, I can't do anything. I was so terrified in that moment to confront this man. I didn't know who he was. I didn't know what was going on. And so, I tried to play it off. As best as I could as an 11-year-old girl, of like rubbing my face like I was kind of waking up and like, pull my shirt down and try to pull the covers up. And also try to scoot a little bit further into the bed and close to my friend. And I was successful in doing so. I kind of got away from this man and he got up and he left the room. I can only presume to go to the bathroom. And I pulled up my shorts quickly and I shook my friend and I just was trying so hard to wake her up. I kept saying, “There's somebody in your room, there's somebody in your room, there's a man in house, I don't know what to do.”
And she was out cold she did not wake up. And I could hear him coming back in and so I just wrapped myself up in the covers and pushed myself as close to her as possible and he continued to sit on the edge of the bed and try to touch me through the covers. But I just kind of kept tossing and turning. Didn't go back to sleep for the rest of that night. No idea what this man looked like. I've no idea who he was. The next morning I mentioned to my friend when she woke up, I said, “Hey, there was somebody in your room last night, you know anything?” She said, no. I woke up a few times there was nobody in here. “Like no, there was, you know, watching something on TV.” And I remember being really uncomfortable and just packing my little bag as quick as I could and getting out. And I got home and went to an event just like a family event. And I told my cousin. I remember just feeling really gross and dirty and scared. And I just told her, I said, I don't know what happened like he took my clothes off. I don't, I don't know. And she kept telling me, Kendra, you have to tell somebody. I was like, I can't help but I'll be in trouble. You know, like, I was wearing shorts. And I'm blaming myself at 11 years old for wearing pajama shorts to bed. And I, you know, immediately thought to myself, if I had worn pants, or if I've had socks on with this wouldn't have happened. I don't know why my brain was wired that way at such a young age. But it was. And the entire day I kept telling my cousin No, it's okay. It's okay. And then my cousin said no chance. I said, No, I made it up. I made it up. Nothing happened, nothing happened. Because I was afraid, I thought I would be the one in trouble. Like, I was the one who chose asleep over. I was the one who also let it happen. I didn't confront him. And so, in my mind, I thought, I'm going to be looked at like you let it happen, like this is your fault. So, several hours of convincing went by, and my cousin finally said, if you don't tell your mom, I will. I said, Okay, so she walked upstairs with me. I told my mom. And from there, it's kind of a blur. I don't really remember all the details. I remember the cops being called, I had to disclose everything that happened. I remember riding in the back of the police car to show them the house because I didn't know her address. And I don't know what happened if they ever found out who it was. I do remember my mom mentioning a few months later that, you know, she had stayed in contact with the officer that we reported it with, just kind of follow up. And they had mentioned they have a suspicion about who it was, like some family member in the house. But nothing was confirmed and then nobody in the family had come forward. They all said that, that member of the family was not living there. They hadn't seen him in a while and I think the worst part for me was I went back to school that Monday, and she knew what happened and she didn't look at me. She wouldn't talk to me. Her birthday party was a few weeks later, and of course, I wasn't allowed to go. She kind of made it known to like all of you girls in our class, like, Oh, yeah, she made up some rumor about my family. And it wasn't until the week after her birthday party. And I just remember my little heart broke for her. I was walking home from school and she ran up behind me and she got my attention and she was crying. She said I'm so sorry, I didn't believe you.
So, it happened to me that night at my party. And I just remember, like, I have chills now. Like recounting that. Several years later, I think I was in junior high. She actually attended my junior high and we were in a class together. And of course, I approached her like, Hey, you know, do you remember me? And she's like, No, I don't remember you. And she denied ever knowing me. She denied ever being friends with me. And I was kind of like, that was kind of it for me. It's like, okay, either, you've gone through something far more traumatic, and you’ve really blocked it all out and you truly don't remember, or you're embarrassed or something else has happened and you don't want to associate with me and that's fine. So, here's where we just kind of cut all ties and never saw her again.
Marissa: I'm so sorry. That happened to you. Oh my God, that's such a painful story. I hate it. I'm not going to lie.
Kendra: It couldn't. And I always think to right, it could be worse, it could be worse. And I'm grateful it didn't go further. And I'm grateful that whatever he had planned if he had anything else planned, he stopped. But yeah, it's like I wouldn't wish that on anybody in any situation,
Marissa: Right? That's so scary. You're in a place you don't know. It's a human being you don't know and have never seen and nobody believes you. And everyone's trying to convince you that your will not your family. But can you know, your friend is trying to convince you it wasn't true and their family was protecting, that's horrible. And for an 11-year-old to already be pretty much conditioned to believe that it's their fault, no matter what it speaks so, so loud about our society and how we conditioned people. Thank you so much for sharing that.
Kendra: I think what's crazy to me too, is it didn't come up until several years later in therapy for something completely unrelated. You know, talking about past trauma and things like that. I was asked to tell my story. And halfway through my story I said, and it's not like the pajama shorts were short, like, like they were long. And you know, my therapist said no, don’t. Like don't make that excuse. It doesn't matter what you were wearing. And I think that's like I don't know; maybe other people feel this way maybe they don't. But I think that's the thing that's so tricky about trauma is no matter how much healing you do and what processing you go through, there's always kind of those little things that just slip out of if I had done this or that that underlying tone of guilt and shame that just come along with it.
Marissa: I think you're totally right. They don't go away. It's never really addressed. You know, we say, oh, it wasn't your fault, doesn't matter what you were wearing. But there's no healing with that, you know, I can think of 1000 reasons why my assault would have been my fault. But not really, because I had no control over the situation. Like you did. And I think that a lot of people agree with us that it's, all about how we condition it. And we ignore the little things when we're trying to heal the big picture, those little things are still seeds that are still planted, right? What did you do? Because you are you seem at least very well adjusted and stable. You know, I don't know what happens in your head. But, you know, what did you do to heal from it? Like, was there anything that you tried that worked really well, for you?
Kendra: I think what was hard is, at 11 years old, I didn't understand the impact that it had on my day-to-day life, or what it was going to do down the line for me. I was very fortunate in the sense that I had a supportive family who, you know, immediately addressed the situation. My mom offered therapy or different outlets like that, because she knew that she couldn't be the one to do all my healing. And my little 11-year-old mind, I was like, No, I don't, need that I think I'm fine. You know, I want to get back to my normal life. I wanted to be able to sleep overs again. I think that, the trauma aside, my social life and my social class at a really critical point in my life (I was getting ready to be out of elementary school and get into junior high with a new friend group), that was being disrupted in a very bold way. And so, I didn't do anything for several years. And it really wasn't until seven or eight years later, when I started to address, “Oh, I'm uncomfortable around them. So uncomfortable.” Or if somebody brushes my thigh, like, I'm triggered, and I just coil up. And I never associated the two together, I just thought, Oh, I'm just shy. And I'm introverted. And I just rather not confront people. And so that's kind of when I was, I was open about it. And I found some other people who had gone through something similar. And I then went to therapy for, like I said, different trauma and a lot of things started to come up. Like, I'm afraid of men, I feel like I have no power like that stuff started to come up. And just figuring out different avenues, things like writing, and we did a lot of you know, kind of sort of like telling a different story to myself using objects and getting, you know, an unbiased third party's view on that to kind of help really frame everything differently for me. And then it also came up I think I allowed not necessarily abuse but a lot, a lot of really inappropriate behavior in my teenage years that I thought, Oh, I had a friend that kept asking, “Just lift your shirt up just flashed me.” And I was really uncomfortable and really triggered by that and I didn't know why I couldn't explain it and so, I did it. And as I was doing it, I was crying. He's like, what's wrong? What's wrong, I was like, I don't know, like, I'm uncomfortable, I'm really uncomfortable. So, I think I didn't have the wherewithal to stop a lot of that In my teenage years. I think therapy was a big outlet, I would say when I was 17-18. And over the last few years, just kind of going back through that and talking through trust issues and trauma and why I view things the way that I view them. And then also never putting myself in a position where I feel like I could be compromised. If I'm ever in a position I'm uncomfortable around somebody I make sure somebody else knows. And I get out of there as quickly as possible. And I don't stand for anybody treating me a certain way or telling you to do something or asking me to do something where I'm uncomfortable. I kind of identify those triggers when they bubble up and I just I get out of a situation as quickly as possible.
Marissa: That's awesome. And that's really smart. Being situationally aware is very underrated. It's never ever, ever the survivor's fault in any situation ever. But there are very good ways to get yourself out of compromising situations just by being situationally aware. And I love that you always let somebody know when you're uncomfortable and get out as soon as possible. A lot of people, at least from what I've learned will just stay silent because they don't want to make anyone else feel uncomfortable, or burden anyone and they don't want to be known as like “that guy.” So, it's so much better that you have a like a routine and like a system and you know, your worth and you know where you stand and you get yourself out of it to keep yourself safe. That's amazing. I want to go back to that object thing you were talking about was I've never heard of that. And I'm so curious. What is it?
Kendra: So, we it was like just a really big sandbox. And she basically sat me down and I had objects at my disposal and they were small things like little figurines, houses, shapes that I could use. I just had the sand and I was able to play with the sand, she said just had to get it to where you want it to start. Whether it's bumpy, you want to spell something in it, you want to completely flat? However you feel good with the sand. Then think through a situation in your life, or think through and in this situation, part of it was because I was suffering trauma at being from being robbed at gunpoint by a male. And so that's for me was like a really prevalent thing, right? Like, I'm very uncomfortable around males. And I feel like, like, I don't have power in a lot of those situations. So that's kind of what we were playing out. So, she wanted me to get figurines and kind of highlight, okay, so like, in any situation where you're uncomfortable, what is the male use an object to describe the male use an object to describe you. And it became very apparent, because I think it was like a big GI Joe style figurine that I put in the sandbox for a male. And I picked the smallest, most fragile, infant looking figurine for me. And I positioned us very closely. And of course, I'm doing a lot of that subconsciously. I've got a safety net, you know, maybe a few inches away from me, but I'm closer to this male that has all of the power. And just a lot of dark shapes and a lot of dark fingers behind him. Just kind of talking about being fearful and of course, as I'm doing this, I'm just thinking, right, this is how I feel in these situations. And she was able to really help me break it down and think through. Okay, so if you're in a situation you feel this way, what do you have in your back pocket? What tools can you pull, and if you're looking at these figurines, what could be helpful for you. And that's where some of the things like telling somebody, I'm uncomfortable, finding your voice, like not being afraid. And now, it's always better to be safe than sorry. And if you're in a situation where you're uncomfortable, nobody's going to care about you, but you So stand up scream, make as much noise as possible and at the end of the day, you probably won't regret it. And so that's where I learned a lot of those things is okay, you know, like, it's not just me, if I'm in these situations, I'm not by myself, I'm not weak, and quiet. I can, stand up and I can move and I can make noise, I can get other people involved, and I can pull myself back into my safety bubble at any point. And that was extremely, extremely enlightening for me.
Marissa: That's amazing. I love that that you said nobody else is going to protect you. But you are nobody else is going to care. But you. So, you do you need to be your biggest advocate and your biggest ally. And who cares if you scream and piss people off and you know, look silly for a second. You're keeping yourself safe. And that's the most important thing. Awesome, thank you so much. What advice would you have? Or would you give to little girls that might be in that situation that you were in?
Kendra: One, always be the person that that you need to be your own advocate. And I know that that's hard when you're young, but also find a trusted source and tell a trusted source. And I think it's so much easier hindsight is 20-20. I remember like sitting on my bedroom floor and playing a game with my cousin and her like basically threatening me, right? Like, you don't tell somebody I will and thank God I had her in my life. Because if I didn't, I don't know that I would have come forward ever. And this has been, you know, nearly 20 years. So, find somebody, especially if you're young, if it's an adult, great. But if it's not like somebody who's going to help fight for you, and don't be afraid of coming forward. And I know that that's hard. And I know, I think now it doesn't matter, you know, I'm 30, I still sometimes feel that same way. Like, oh, I don't want to come forward because it's embarrassing, or nothing's going to come of it and in my situation, nothing did come out I couldn't find anybody. I don't know what happened to my abuser. But I know that my voice may have at some point stopped it from happening to somebody else. And so, remember that, you know, if you're in a situation, you're fighting for yourself, you're also fighting for everybody else that’s going through it. And we're a lot louder as a crowd than we are as a single individual. So, don't be afraid to step up and know that there is a community out there that does support you. And you won't face that judgment and that shame and that guilt. You can shut that whenever you're ready to let go of it.
Marissa: Thank you so much. That's all so helpful. Thank you so much for sharing your story and for being here and advocating for survivors everywhere. You're phenomenal.
Kendra: Thank you.
Marissa: And I'm so honored that you’re my friend. Kendra, thank you so much for being here and for sharing your story with us. You have such an amazing outlook and such phenomenal, helpful advice. I can't thank you enough for being here. Just a reminder to everybody listening to get involved in your community for Sexual Assault Awareness Month and to support survivors. We want everybody to live a brave, full and peaceful life. Thank you so much for listening and I'll talk to you next week.
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. In honor of Sexual Assault Awareness Month for April. Like I said, last week, we are going to be doing interviews with real survivors talking about their stories and how they healed every Wednesday this month. Today we have with us my amazing friend, Liz. It is so awesome to be able to see you and talk to you in our messy buns and sweaters because we are self-quarantined for Coronavirus.
Liz: Hey!
Marissa: I haven’t brushed my hair in two days. Liz was born and raised in Long Branch New Jersey. She graduated with a BA in communications. She says she's very anxious about sharing her story for the first time. But after years of dedication to her healing and recovering. She wants to share her story as a way of promoting survivors to speak up about their abuse. She has a boyfriend and he has been a huge supporter of her and everything that she has been through and everything she's doing. So I want to welcome you to breaking through our silence. How are you today?
Liz: Thank you so much. I'm well, you know, like you said quarantined right now telecommuting for work. So, um, it's definitely interesting, but I'm good. Thank you.
Marissa: All right, awesome. So let's just get into it, if you don't mind sharing with us your story and a little bit about what you went through?
Liz: Yeah. So um, it's kind of a weird story. Still, to this day, still doesn't make a lot of sense. Actually, I owe a lot of things to you and your books in your podcast has really been helpful on the way you analyze things and explain things in the way sometimes people react or do things. It's helped make a lot of sense of some of the things I went through. And it's helped me be able to sit down and really find the right words and actually be able to form a timeline because the mess I went through with this weird friend group I was involved with just didn't make any sense for so long. And I've finally now has sat down and made a timeline where I can say, Okay, this is when this happened. And then this is when everything really did start going downhill.
Marissa: So tell us a little bit about it.
Liz: So um, we're all like high school friends. It's just so weird. Like, I can't even imagine this is something I went through. Like, this isn't anything I would even be able to like, you know, I just can't believe it's still to this day. But anyway, so what happened was, we were the four of us were all friends. And, you know, high school drama of who's taking who to prom and everything. And there was me, Jeff, Zack, and Dan, and really simple friend group. There was like a few other people that were like, in and around the friend group. But there was like the four of us that were mainly involved in the situation. So actually, and it's really funny, because the first I always had this crush on Dan. Like, basically from the time he and I became friends. And for years after that, like I just always had a crush on him and junior year because we met in freshman year. So junior year, is our first prom. And Zack had actually asked me to it but I wanted to go with Dan so I told him I messaged him, he Facebook messaged me to ask me to prom. And I Facebook messaged him back saying, you know, I'm really sorry, but I've actually been waiting for Dan to ask me and I guess they must have talked. Dan told me that they and said that he wanted to go to prom with me. And I was of course just as any other girl would be like, over the moon happy. The boy that I want to go to prom with asked me to go this is amazing. It was it was just great. We went to prom together we started dating. I don't even remember how we dated, I just remember hanging out a lot. Watching him play sports or just hanging out with him at his house or driving around because he had a car a little bit before me, it was just like those really sweet, cute little like, fun thing. There wasn't any pressure to it. It was just something we were kind of doing like we were boyfriend girlfriend just having fun. Really light and carefree. Just really simple. The mess started to occur the summer going into senior year when them and a few other people kind of involved in our friend group went on this trip, and I didn't go on the trip because of finances. You know, my family doesn't have as much money as many other families in those towns surrounding Long Branch. So I didn't go I was like the only person in the whole friend group who didn't go. When they got back. Things were really weird. Like I said, before they left Dan and I were over the moon, super cool, happy, having a good time, whatever. And when they got back, I didn't hear from him at all. Like, he just wasn't texting me back or calling me at all. And I was so confused and Zach didn't seem to know what was going on. But Jeff seemed to have magically all these answers. He said, “Oh, while we while we were on the trip, Dan was hanging out with this other girl and really falling for this other girl and he doesn't want to, see you anymore or talk to you anymore. He just wants you to stop contacting him.” And because he’s my friend. I trusted him. So I was like, yeah, cool. Okay, I mean, not cool. But, you know, I'll stop contacting him. Little did I know? And I didn't find this out until a year later, he was doing the same thing to Dan. He was telling him that I didn't want to talk to him, even though I don't know where the miscommunication was, because I was the one texting and calling. That's the background information. Going into senior year was like a real mess. Actually, that was also when I had met my current boyfriend that I'm with now who I love tremendously and we have such a wonderful life now. But at the time, my friend Jeff like was just so like, involved in my life, because he was such a close friend. He was so involved in my life. I just trusted him so innately. Whenever he told me like not to talk to someone or not to do something, or vice versa, I would just do it because I trusted him. So he even convinced me to stop talking to my boyfriend that I'm with now. And it's so weird to think back on the horrible things he said to me and think how like, I just trusted it. He was like, you know, I don't really think this guy is a good guy. He doesn't sound like he really wants you for the right weight reasons. You probably wouldn't want to keep talking with him. It was just one of the things where I was just like, Okay, I guess it makes sense. It was long distance. I guess it makes sense. So I stopped talking to him to which really upset me because I didn't know how to stop talking to him. I didn't know how to tell this person that I really didn't know for that long that I didn't think he was really into me. So, I just kind of ghosted him. And it definitely hurt me as much as it hurt him because even all these years later, or even after him and I got back together, it's something that still haunts me. And something he and I still talk about every now and then because, you know, I just love him so much. He's definitely someone who I think I'm going to be spending the rest of my life with. And to know that I did that to this man that I love so much because of this guy that just had so much control over me. I was just so naive, I can't even believe that I allowed that to happen. I allowed him to control so much of my life, even the people I spoke with and dated.
So about a couple months after that, maybe not even that long, it might have been like a month and a half or so he made a move on me. He was like asking to hang out with me all the time, which I did. Because you know, I was just like, whatever, like, we'll hang out. I really just didn't think anything of it. And then before I knew it, he had kissed me. And we had like, started dating and everyone at school knew about it. Like we were just all of a sudden boyfriend-girlfriend, and it happens so fast. I was like, Okay, I guess this is happening. And I just so passively allowed these things to happen. I allowed him to talk me out of talking to people allowed him to talk me out of hanging out with people. And it just really quickly kept declining from there. I lost friends because as our relationship progressed, he would tell me I couldn't do this, or I couldn't do that meaning like, he wanted me to come straight to his house every single day after school. So as soon as school let out, I was to go right to his house, and I was to stay there for dinner. I had dinner with him and his family every single night for like, almost the entire senior year of high school. Because that's how long this relationship ended up going on for. He would even like tell me like, you know, if it was time for me to go home, like if my dad was texting me like, you know, it's time to come home, he would give me such a hard time and it was causing problems with me and my family, obviously, as well. It caused me to have this big fight with my mom and it kind of caused me to have this big fight with my dad and my step mom. And it was just this big, like, snowball going down this hill that was just growing and growing. And I didn't know how to stop it. It was just messing in every aspect of my life. But yeah, so that's like the meatiest part of the story is like all the things he ended up doing. It even got to a point where he had like spies. There was this one kid that lived next door to a friend of mine and I just went over to hang out with this friend of mine. This kid that lived next door to him that knew I was dating, Jeff, would go back to him and tell him if he saw me there because it got to a point where I wanted to see my friends, but like I couldn't, because he would tell me, No, you have to be here with me. You have to come right to my house and be here with me. And if I lied to him, like I said, like, oh, I have to go talk to my mom or I have to go to this appointment a couple times, I lied to him like something like that, so that I could go hang out with some friends so that I could get some space. And the kid that was like, basically spying on me would go back to Jeff and say, like, Oh, she's over here or she's there. And it was so weird and crazy. It made me feel so vulnerable. I was like, Oh, my God, he's got like, spies everywhere. He knows exactly where I'm going. He knows when I lie to him, because somehow he's got these people like spying on me. I'm like, I don't even know where to go now return. So literally got to the point where I had no friends left. All I had was him. And I just became so dependent on him. Whatever he said, we were going to do was what we were going to do, and I didn't have a choice in the matter.
Marissa: So he tried to well actively isolate you from all of your friends and family so that he can have full control over you. That's awful.
Liz: Yeah, and it worked. It worked because I don't have the most Kodak picture-perfect family. So I have my own issues there about family. So it was easy to get me away from family it was I don't have the best relationship with some people in my family. So that was easy. The hard part was distancing me from my friends, because I always did have such good connections with my friends, at least the friends I had at the time. I still have a couple friends from that group. It's just, I just don't have anyone else. I literally only have one or two friends left from that group. It's weird how much it all ended up affecting me It ended up I literally like lifelong friends I had through high school and like school and whatever, like I don't have any more and it's really weird to think about how like all this unraveled and touched so much of my life.
Marissa: How do you think that this abuse is still affected you?
Liz: It still affected me because it makes me so hard to trust people now I don't know what kind of ulterior motives are lying behind what someone wants from me. Like, it makes me always second guess, well, why does this person want to be friends with me? Like, what are they going to get out of this friendship and it makes it so hard and like kind of makes me feel a little lonely. Because like I said, like, so many people ended up getting involved in this situation, and not all of them know the truth. So that's hard to like, a lot of rumors ended up going around a lot of false information that made me look bad, not even him. So at the end of the day, like he's the one that caused all this, you know, mess. And then I'm the one who gets the short end of the stick nobody involved in the situation wants to hang out with me or be my friend anymore, because they hear these lies and like the untrue part of the story. And it's like, you know, now all these years later, it makes me feel so lonely in betrayed.
Marissa: How did you get out of it? How did you leave? What was the last straw? And what did you do?
Liz: It was right around May. He and I got into a few altercations. In the March-April timeframe, which I still don't know how to, like get the words out of my mouth about. But it did result in him putting his hands on me in a way that he should not have. And so that was the final straw that was like, I did this weird dip with my, emotions. I really hit rock bottom where I was like, that's it. I'm just always going to be treated like this for the rest of my life. And then I did this weird rebound, right in the beginning of May, where I was like, You know what, no, I'm not gonna be treated like this, I am going to find a way out because High School is almost over. And there's a way to get out of this. There's other people in the world that do care about me. And it was right around the time that my mom and I were actually patching things up. So I went to her house for Mother's Day and met her new boyfriend who was now my stepdad. We were talking and hanging out and it was just a really good time. And I ended up confiding in her some things, you know, saying how unhappy I was and how he's just ruining everything about me. He was ruining me as a person. He was making me an unreliable person. He was making me lie. And I just, I'm so sick to my stomach with this relationship I need to get out. And actually it involves me moving back in with her. During the course of this relationship, He had convinced me to get into a fight with my mom and move out of her house and with my dad and then was causing fights between me my dad, so I moved back in with my mom because we were fixing things and I had confided that with her. Unfortunately, it still took a couple more months. So unfortunately, like I still went to senior prom with him. I didn't have a choice in that I had to go to senior prom with him. There was no way I was getting out of that. So I did that and it was just the worst night of my life ever. People ridiculed me all through post prom. It was just horrible the public humiliation I went through with him. And then the last straw was he invited himself on this family trip we were all taking. And I told my mom, I said, I can't, he cannot come with us. He needs to realize this relationship is ending and it's over. And he just needs to stop. He needs to stop contacting me. He needs to stop being around me. He definitely cannot come on this trip. And she said, you need to call him and tell him that. So I called him and I had him on speaker and I actually was literally I was sitting on the floor. My mom was sitting on the stairs and I called him and put him on speaker. And I did say I said you know, things with us are over. Please do not come on the trip. Please do not show up tomorrow morning. Please do not come. And I was very nice. Just very civil like that. And he was just so insistent. He said, No, I will be there and coming on the trip. We're going to fix things he just had it so intent in his heart. He was going to fix everything. And I just said to him, I said over and over again. I can't even like remember how long the phone call lasted but it felt like forever. Just be begging him. Please, please do not come. And I got to the point where I even though like maybe if I tried to use like a scary voice like I don't know, I just thought like if I put on like big girl pants and like this did girl voice like maybe he would get the memo. And I did say at one point I said I swear to God, if you come on this trip, this is not going to be a good thing. And like I tried to be as demanding as possible. But it just wasn't It wasn't happening. He showed up and came on the trip anyway. And throughout the whole trip, we fought. I was sick the whole time, violently sick the whole time. Like my family was so confused by what was going on. Like kind of bragged on me about it too. Like, why is she always in the bathroom? Like why won't she come out of her room? Why won't she come out and enjoy family time? And it was because he was there? And no, no one was really backing me up and saying you know what, you shouldn't be here, you shouldn't be coming on this trip, and you should go home. So, that was the final straw and we did finally, by the end of that trip, we had finally officially broken up.
Marissa: Okay, good. Well, I'm glad that you got out of it. I'm sorry that, you know, he came on the trip and ruined that trip for you and all the things that came with it, I want to go back real quick and just comment on being on the floor. I also like being on the floor. And I think it like grounds us, you know, we can be so comfortable. And I don't know the kind of physical abuse or anything that you've endured. But for me, I was pushed off a lot of chairs, and my chairs were flipped and things were you know, so like I was always falling and hitting my head or hitting my back or hitting my shoulders. And so for me sitting on the floor is like a very comfortable thing. Because like I can't fall, you know. And it's been 10 years since my abuse and I’m still always worried about falling. Thank you so much for sharing your story And I'm sorry that you went through everything you went through. I know that you said earlier that my books and everything have helped you. And that makes me feel really good. So thank you for saying that. What have you done thus far to help you heal from it? Because obviously, you're in a great relationship now.
Liz: Yeah, so many things. Another thing that kind of got me in the situation I was back then was low self-esteem. I was bullied all throughout middle school and a good portion of high school. And another thing I've just been coming out and talking about recently is an eating disorder. I actually was anorexic on and off. And of course, like that was never a good thing. I had severe anxiety and I just had such like low self-esteem. So I believe that, that was the core problem. So that is the first thing I addressed when trying to rebuild and heal and recover. So I got into healthy eating and yoga and working out lots of meditation and just focusing on the things that I love about myself and not the things that I hate and just building myself up instead of tearing myself down. So when I look in the mirror, I don't say like, oh, your skin looks bad and you're fat. I say like, dang, you thick and you beautiful and have awesome hair. And it's like, okay, I can live with that. Like you had mentioned my boyfriend. I mean, he had the best reaction out of anyone I've ever told. So I told him when he and I originally got back together. I waited about I guess it was about a month to tell him the gory details. He had the best reaction. I mean, nobody else reacted the way he did. He just put his arms around me No one has ever hugged me when I told them they were just skeptical and wanted to know more and he didn't care. He didn't care about the details. It took me so much by surprise that I didn't know to hug him back. He literally like just he grabbed my arm to like stop me from talking just pulled me in into this like the most comforting hug I've ever had. I almost like I was just so frozen. I didn't hug them back. It took me like a few minutes of him hugging me to be like, Okay, this is the part that I actually hug back and reciprocate that feeling. So yeah, he's just been amazing. And he's never pushed for me to tell him any more than what I have. I mean, he's always been open for me. He's always said, you know, whatever you want to tell me I'm here for. He's like, but I'm not going to ask. And I'm not going to push. That has been the main thing that has supported me because people that have found out have really pushed me to give more detail like, well, what was the part that really was the bad part? What was the worst part? And there are so many rumors. There's rumors of more like violence, like, there wasn't this violence of like him punching me constantly. He kind of did this thing where like, he would like, wave his arms really close to me or wave his hands like in front of my face, or by me and like, when he was angry, he was yelling at me like, as intimidation. But I could never actually say that he hit me. He had never hit me. He just made me feel like he was about to all the time. And that was one thing. Another rumor that went around was that he choked me out. He didn't choke me out. He just scared me. And that's what people like, people that started finding out more things that happened. More people started misconstruing them and like lying, like, Oh, I heard she got choked out. And I heard like, he punched her. Like, it's not what happened. It wasn't abusively violent like that. It was just him manipulating me to give him anything he wanted. And that does include us having sex on that was the first time I had sex. And it was the whole thing was manipulation from beginning to end of like, we're just going to do this or we're just going to do that we're not going to you know. Don't worry. Like, you know, you love me. So because you love me, you're going to do it anyway. And like, just this weird mix of like, comforting me with comforting words. Like don’t worry, its okay. And then this weird, like aggressive part where it's like, well, you love me. So you're going to do this. It was just all manipulation, I don't have any other word for it than that. And it just, yeah So when I started to try to tell people how like, it was just, it was just this mess of things of all these things I didn't want to do, including having sex I did not want to do that did not want to have sex with him. But because it was what he wanted. And because he used his the words the way he did to benefit himself. He got what he wanted.
Marissa: So no matter if he hit you or not, it's abuse. And I personally think that emotional and verbal abuse are more lasting, because the words really stick with you and they haunt you for years. I mean, like I said before, I'm 10 years out, and sometimes I still wake up and I'm like, wow, I'm a real big piece of human garbage. And I'm like, No, I'm not I am worthy. I have to get, you know my ex's voice out of my head. And another thing is those situations where you're being manipulated or coerced into sex is still sexual assault. Any unwarranted unwanted or unwelcome sexual advance. It could be them saying something inappropriate to you or manipulating you into having sex and that is still sexual assault. It leaves an imprint on you negatively, like I know for me, after I was assaulted by my boyfriend, sex didn't feel good for years. I couldn't figure out if it was me. Or if it was, I didn't know. But I just had such a horrible traumatic experience that I couldn't understand why people love sex so much. Did you have something like that?
Liz: Actually, exactly that. And in one of, I believe your stories in Breaking Through the Silence: The Journey to Surviving Sexual Assault, at one point you it said like even when it was happening to like when you know you don't want it but like you can't control it, you just feel numb. Like when it was happening. I don't even remember what it felt like. So like my first time ever having sex. I don't even remember what it felt like because I just remember feeling numb and scared and afraid and not knowing what to do. I was just there. I was just existing in that moment. And I don't know anything else. So when this was all said and done when truth started coming out, and he actually did admit to what he was doing at the end. So at the end, there was this weird meeting between me, Jeff, Dan, and this other kid that was kind of involved in the situation. And he did admit to the four of us and in that circle that night was like, yeah, no, I lied. I lied to her and I lied to him to break them up. And this is what I did. And like he admitted it, he had totally admitted it and was not denying anything. So, once things started progressing like that, and dust started settling Dan and I actually did get back together. We dated on and off the first year and a half into college. And I have to say, he was such a tremendous support. During all those times whether we were on or off. He never pushed me and it definitely was tough being sexually active with him because I didn't know what I was doing. I was still scarred and afraid of the things that had happened. I didn't know what to do next, I didn't know how to be with a guy, and my first time was just ruined. And now this new time that I this new chance I have, I still don't really know what I'm doing. So it definitely took a while for me to come around. But I have to say I could not have asked for a better boyfriend at the time than Dan. He was super, super supportive. Whatever I said I needed he did or he got for me. And it was just great. And to this day, we're still really good friends, I still hold him as like a really good friend to me. And my boyfriend completely knows all of this, like when we are getting back together. And I was divulging all this stuff you know, I told him all of that I was like, Listen, like, Dan and I were still friends because he him and I had just been through all of this mess together. And we're just we just still even years after we've broken up, still support each other no matter what we're doing career wise. And he's got a girlfriend who is wonderful. I think she's a nicest person in the world. Like, couldn't ask for a better person for him to be with either. That's really the light out of everything that had happened is my friendship with him. And I'm still really good friends with Zack too. He is a really cool friend of mine. We're always joking around. And we call each other every now and then because we've all moved away. No, none of us live there anymore.
Marissa: So what advice would you give to other survivors who have gone through or are going through something similar?
Liz: The advice I would give, is to talk despite whatever voice that is in your head, or weird feelings you have about it, talk. I went years without talking and even after so like I would have these weird like occasional explosions, like at one point, I had not talked about it for like a year. And then I had an explosion about it with my mom and my stepdad. And I had another explosion about it a significant period of time, like six months or something like that with some other like another group of friends that I had made, like these weird explosions. And it came to a point where I was like, maybe I wouldn't explode if I talked about it in a healthy environment and got it out of my system. So that's what I started doing. One of my best friends now that I made in high school, she is also really super supportive of all this. And she has been the main person that I've gone to like when I feel it bubbling up again. And I feel like something's come up where I need to, like express this or express that she has been awesome, where I've been able to, like call her or like go over her house and be like, Listen, I need to talk about this. And you don't have to say anything back because, you know, sometimes there's nothing to say back. But I just need to like say this out in the open in the air so that it's not inside me. I've actually still haven't really formally seeing a therapist. It's a daily debate for me. I, to this day, a million years later, I still wake up every day and at least once a day think about like finding a therapist to talk to. But I have this weird pride about it, and I would say to survivors to not have that weird, stupid pride. Because I have this weird battle inside me about therapists where like, I know, I should go to one and I should really keep working on the progress I've made. But I have this other side of me that's super proud of the progress I've made. And all this time being alone without a therapist and just being like, you know what, I don't need a therapist, because I already did the significant amount of work that needs to be done when you're healing. But I would say don't do that, because it's not healthy what took me probably 10 times longer than it should have to heal. So I would say talk and talk to someone professional.
Marissa: Yeah, that's a good idea. Professional help can be very, very good, for some people, it doesn't work for everyone. So I always tell people don't rely on a therapist, you have to do a lot of work yourself as you've learned Liz. But having an ear like a listening ear with somebody professional can be very, very helpful. Also know that it's not like a one stop shop. Not every therapist is a perfect match for you. So if the first one doesn't work, keep therapists shopping, because you'll find somebody that fits you perfectly and understands you. It's not like they're all trained exactly the same. Well, it's really good that you have such a support network, though, I'm really happy that you have friends to turn to and have a better relationship with your family that you feel comfortable talking to them. And that you found somebody that rewired you back to a good sense of self and of what you should expect from a relationship. That's really important. I'm so proud of you.
Liz: Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, and that's the main reason why all these years later, I'm finally ready to like talk about it because I do finally have the support network that I should have had in the beginning. And like I said from the beginning like your organization, your podcasts your books, have helped me tremendously like reading all the stories and hearing everyone else's stories and being like you know what, there are other people in the world that makes their stories publicly known. And I can do that I can speak up. So yeah, thank you. Thank you.
Marissa: Thank you. I hope and I'm also really glad that you felt confident enough and empowered enough to speak up and want to help other people do the same. I think that's really admirable. And I love you. Oh, is there anything that you want to share any projects or anything?
Liz: Actually, um, I have started a book about my life. So it does go from like, my childhood about middle school-esk time to current day. I don't know if it's something I'll ever publish, but it's something I'm doing as part of my healing to like, put everything down like in a book and be able to like, look back at it and read on it and just be like, you know, what, I've been through the wringer. I've been through a lot of things in my somewhat short life. I mean, I'm only like, 26. So I just been through, I just can't even believe all the things I've been through. So yeah, I am writing a book. Whether I ever publish it or not, is another story. But yeah.
Marissa: Well, if you ever decide to publish it, let me know I can help you.
Liz: Cool, sounds good.
Marissa: Thank you again, so much for being here, Liz. I really appreciate you speaking out and empowering the survivor community to speak up and become the champion of their voice like you have, and I am just so grateful. Thank you very much.
Liz: Oh, of course. Thank you so much for having me. This was so wonderful.
Marissa: Oh, good. Okay, well, I'll have you on again soon. We'll do a month check back or something on your book and on your therapy.
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Hey guys, welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. April is Sexual Assault Awareness Month. And for the month I wanted to speak with champions, people who have overcome their abuse and are now working to change the world for survivors to help them become the champions of their stories. I want to celebrate taking our lives back and hopefully encourage others to do the same. With us today is my dear friend, Nana Ponceleon. She was born in Venezuela and before she had the courage to do what she really wanted. She got a bachelor's degree in business administration with a minor in computer science from Pace University in New York. She worked in sales and marketing in several companies, including Microsoft for over 11 years. Today, she's a full time actress in New York. She's worked in over 27 films, short films, features and TV shows, and many commercials and plays since graduating from Stella Adler. She is passionate about the human spirit has created a project which the vision is to create a world where women and men collaborate, cooperate and co-create their shared world together called Act Feminine. Act Feminine today is more focused on helping women but it will evolve in the future to be all inclusive. Thank you so much for being here. Nana, I'm so excited to talk to you.
Nana: Oh, not as much as me. Thank you for inviting me and thinking of me!
Marissa: Anytime. So Nana, and I met at a Tony Robbins retreat. And we instantly clicked and fell in love and I adore her. I watch her Act Feminine videos on YouTube. All the time. Every time they're on every time she puts out a new one. I'm probably like the fifth person to watch it.
Nana: You're so sweet. Thank you,
Marissa: Of course. And thank you for being here today and sharing your story. You were telling me before we started recording that this is the first time that you're publicly sharing your story, right?
Nana: This is absolutely correct. It's like coming out of the closet for me.
Marissa: How do you feel right now?
Nana: Nervous. Excited, but nervous,
Marissa: Understandable, just know that you are sharing with a supportive community. And we're here to empower you. And I'm really, really honored that you chose me and Healing From Emotional Abuse to be you’re coming out party.
Nana: Well, I guess the title is perfect for me today.
Marissa: Well, I'm glad you're here. So let's get started. Would you mind telling us a little bit about your story, or as much of your story as you're comfortable sharing?
Nana: Okay, so I, as you said, I'm from Venezuela, but I moved to Baton Rouge because that's where my dad went to school at LSU. And I have deer. And you know, my mom's family there who moved when I was very little, and I decided to go to LSU as well. I met this man, we got married at 19 years old. I was a baby, and he's from Venezuela, too. So I moved to New Orleans because my boyfriend, your husband at the time was working there. And four months into the marriage, we got married December. And in April, I walked into my apartment coming back from school and this man was inside the apartment. Initially, he said that, you know, where the money is, it looked like a robbery. But eventually, you know, it turned into a rape. And my life just got… I don't even know what the word is. But I guess transformed, changed in an instant. It became a before and after. And I'm not married to my husband at the time anymore. Which to me it's sort of understandable because, you know, four months into a marriage, you get raped inside your house. It just my whole life became a full big mess. I didn't tell anybody at the time. I didn't tell my mom. My father was the only one who found out actually because, strangely enough, which might not be strange for those people who believe in this things. But he called when the police were at my apartment and it was just total chaos in the apartment. They were taking prints and you know, the police flooded the place afterwards to investigate and he called right at that moment. So it was inevitable for him to find out but I didn't share it with anybody. And I can't tell you that I was ashamed. I think I was numb more than anything, and probably that's what made me not want to share it. Because I literally didn't know what was going on. It was like this weird feeling of being here but not being here. I don't know. I don't know if I'm making sense.
Marissa: Oh, that makes total sense. It's like it's, um, dissociation.
Nana: Yes that I think that's the perfect word. Yes, you're totally correct. Which I can do very well, you know, and I think that was my survival mechanism.
Marissa: That makes sense. And it's super common. A lot of people dissociate especially during intimate moments, or moments of chaos and confusion. They just like leave their body.
Nana: Yes, that oh my god. It's so funny that you say, well, not funny. Amazing that you say that? Because after the rape, he was still in the apartment. And well, I was totally, you know, I was tied up and he knew what he was doing. And I remember thinking in an instant, that with the most peaceful feeling, which was the weirdest thing. I remember saying to God, God…. you can take me now. But it was so peaceful though my reset, it was so strange, because it really was, like, I was feeling an out of body experience. Like, literally went into this place of total peace, which is so weird. And it wasn't a white tunnel. It wasn't that kind of thing. You know, no white tunnel or anything. It actually it was very black, to, you know, everything I saw, or I felt what was in my mind and someone who I love dearly, Also from the Tony Robbins community, She's an amazing, amazing woman, Jessie Child, she said to me that is exactly what you're describing, that you felt is exactly what we strive for, through meditation. And through, wanting to go into this oneness sensation, because I literally felt like my body was not there. And I was in this black space, or everything was like, suspended, and I felt nothing. But the nothing wasn't like, it was peace. And, and that's why I kept saying, God, you know, you can take me now you can take now. But you know, it's, okay. It's done.
Marissa: That's so scary. You know, so you were totally at peace with that.
Nana: But with leaving. With going. With dying
Marissa: Yeah. And I'm sure that's a relatable feeling for a lot of people, especially in something that's as intense or violent.
Nana: Yes. And, and I think also, because also, I didn't know what was going to happen, because he was still in the room. And I didn't know if he would kill me if he would rape me again, if I had no idea because I couldn't see. So it was this feeling of I don't want to go through this again. I'd rather die.
Marissa: Thank you so much for sharing that. It's such a tender, sensitive moment, and thank you for being so vulnerable with us. I just think it's so important that people know, that after such a traumatic situation, that there's a myriad of ways people feel it's not like everyone immediately goes to telling people or anger. You're human, you know, so everything you experience is so personal. And thank you for being so candid with us. That's, you know, really, really helpful.
Nana: Well, no, no, my pleasure, you know. If, if I'm going to come out, I'm going to come out.. And, to me, now that you say anger, you know, that anger has been an emotion, not readily available to me through this process. It came and went. And that is very strange, because when I used to think of rape, I would think, okay, the emotion is anger, you know, the natural one, and that the one that you would live in all at all times. And it wasn't for me, but I think it was my ability to dissociate. I was very good at that ever since I was a girl actually, and this has nothing to do with the rape. Whenever something emotional and stressful came into my life. I was able to sort of detach and literally go into this place of feeling nothing. And I think it came handy in this situation, you know? I talked to an expert from Columbia University here because I worked in a project, I was blessed to work on a project on grief therapy, though it's not for rape victims is for parents who have lost children. I asked her and I said, listen, there are parts and there are things I don't remember and I literally don't remember. Like, no matter how I try, I don't remember. And she uses in grief therapy, taking the parents through the whole process of remembering every single detail. And I said, Okay, so maybe I'm not gonna totally heal, if I don't go through that process. And she said, and I'm sharing this because this might help some people, you know, I don't know. She said, No, because it's different. A parent loves their children, they adore them. And when they lose the children and forget parts of what happened and the life, they feel twice as guilty, because they feel like they're betraying their children by not remembering. So the remembering process is a healing process.
In your case, you really don't want to do the work of remembering. And if you truly don't remember, and you're okay with it, and it doesn't bother you, then let it be. That to me was like, Oh, what a relief.
Marissa: Thank you so much for saying that. That's so important. A lot of people I've found doubt themselves and doubt that it really happened and question whether or not there, you know, they're really a victim because they don't remember some or any of what happened to them. But it's a trauma response, fight, flight freeze, and then tonic immobility, some people freeze, and then they freeze it out, and they dissociate, and some people will fight back. But not a lot of people will fight back, you know, and that's not, that doesn't mean that you're not a victim. It doesn't mean that it didn't happen, it just means that your brain is protecting you by shielding out those memories.
Nana: Totally, totally. And that's exactly what happened to me. And when I talked to Katherine, she said, perfectly normal. And you shouldn't make an effort to try to remember, you know, I was taking to hypnosis session or a couple, trying to because I saw him very briefly, I walked into the room, he had closed the shades, the room was dark, and he just jumped on me. So I saw him actually just the second and we had dark Rayban glasses covering his eyes, which is very smart, because eyes are very distinct. And they took me to hypnosis sessions to try to remember and sort of freeze his image. So I could do the portrait again, that they could draw the portrait again, based on what I was seeing during hypnosis. There was no way they could take me past the door. Even under hypnosis, every time they would bring me in the room. I said, you know, I'm walking down my hallway and I get to the door of my room, and there I stopped and they go like, Okay, so what else? What's next? I just, I never was able to make that next step, and walk into a room. So it was impossible. We couldn't do it. Not even under hypnosis. So that's how much you shield yourself.
Marissa: Yeah, your brain knows what's best for you. And if it doesn't want you to remember if it blocked it out, you know, maybe there's a reason for it.
Nana: Yeah, absolutely, though, and this is something I'm going to share. And I'm going to jump to the movie that we've talked about. Because I decided for those who are listening to this and don't know, obviously, I decided to make a movie, after many, many years. And the reason I made I decided to make the movie and this is also first, I was on a set of a show called the Perfect Murder. And I'm in the scene and I am the killer. So these two cops are supposed to arrest me. And you know, we're on one of the breaks. And we're talking and they say that they were real NYPD detectives, and I'm like, Oh my God, you know, you're acting, and you're doing this. And you know, they say yes, because sometimes they use this also as advisors, because these are recreations of true stories. So they need, you know, the police to verify that what they're showing is the way things are done. So we started talking about police and all of a sudden, we talk about police corruption. Low and behold, the police that investigated my case came as one of the most corrupt in the country. And all of a sudden I went like, Oh my God, because and I'm not going to share the whole details. But weeks after the rape, I'm driving to school and I see him without, like I said giving too much details. The police told me that it couldn't have been him. He wasn't there at that time. Because then I'm like, Okay, why? How do you know? Well, he's an undercover cop. So it couldn't have been.
I am 100% sure that it was him. Same hair, same Rayban sunglasses. You're around my neighborhood. And when these guys are telling me this, I went like, Oh my god, this is what happened. And at the time, I had no representation. It was just my husband and meet two young people who were from Venezuela. And why would we doubt what the police are telling me. And I just let it be and moved to New York to live a better life because I literally couldn't live there. It was, too tough and for me, different than sometimes for other people, of course, you know, I just couldn't walk into my apartment, the fear was being inside the house instead of outside of the streets. That is not a good feeling.
Marissa: No, I can't even imagine it's supposed to be your safe haven. And it's where you're feeling the most vulnerable.
Nana: Oh, it was terrible. I had to buy an emotional support dog. I bought a German Shepherd at the time. And until like, yeah, until I heard Max barking, I wouldn't go in. I had to check everything in the apartment under the bed and the closets. And before I could sort of relax
Marissa: In such a system, you know, that, that? It's so uncomfortable and feeling that fear in your home? I couldn't imagine.
Nana: Yeah, it was that's why you know, it's like your life just goes inside out in an instant. It's like, relationships, change. Your relationship with the environment changes, everything.
Marissa: So let's talk a little bit about the movie you're putting out, you're putting out a short film, you wrote it, you're acting and you're co-producing it. And it's about your story.
Nana: Right? So this short film is just going to be I'm calling it, you know, people call it a teaser. Because the movie that I want to make is the long, the feature film. This one is just to start creating awareness on this. And what happens to a person when they become obsessed is, and it's a little bit about justice, but it's also about healing. It's about her obsession of reopening the case, that drives her a bit crazier, and how that doesn't necessarily heal you. Though, of course, justice is justice. And it has to happen. It's not the healing, what I found is that it's not what heals you, you know, I can put him in prison and still suffer every day. So it for me, it was like a reveal. So this short film is more focused on that, because I initially got very upset and very angry. And I wanted to reopen the case. And I'm not going to explain all the details of what that entitles. And whether I'm doing it or not, because it's very easy today, they have my DNA. And I have a suspect identified. So it would be it's very, very easy. You know, you do a test period, then. So anyway, I got very angry and then it just dawned on me that whether he's in jail or not, my process is my process. And the healing comes from another place, from within.
Marissa: 100%. People who have not gone through this will often say, well, you know, if you put them in jail, or if you make a report, it'll make you feel better, because you'll know they're behind bars and they can't hurt other people. And while that's 100% true, it’s not going to heal anyone, because we the crime scene is our bodies. You know, it's not like an end. For you it was in your house. So not only are you living in a skin body that makes you feel uneasy and uncomfortable and vulnerable, but you're taking that body and putting it in a home that also makes you feel uneasy, uncomfortable and vulnerable. So wherever this person resides, whether it be jail, six feet under or next door, you will have the same problem and the same process to heal because that person did what they did. And it is still affecting you day to day.
Nana: Correct! Absolutely correct. Because even if he would have gone to prison the next day, I would have had to go through the same process of healing. And that is so important for I think for victims of any crime actually, that healing is from within. If we focus too much on the outside, searching for the healing outside by putting them in jail by revenge by hate by all of that it only makes it worse.
Marissa: Absolutely. That anger just fuels. It fuels the negativity and it's toxic.
Nana: Yes. And like you say, of course they deserve justice. Of course they do they deserve to be behind bars. Yes. I mean, no question about it. But don't put your expectations that once that happens, you're healed. That's the only thing.
Marissa: So what did you do to help you heal? You got an emotional support animal, you moved. But was there anything else that you did?
Nana: Oh, I have done throughout the years, many things. I initially went to a rape crisis group, which helped a little bit. And eventually I said, you know, I can't do this anymore. To me, it was too much. I sort of felt that I was visiting that every day, and it to me it didn't work as well. I mean, there were ladies there who had been going for quite a while. It did help a lot. And this I have to say in Releasing the initial release of just explaining, saying, sharing with other women that were supportive that that helped a lot. However, it got to a point where, okay, I Released it. I've said it a million times, I've described what I remember, but it was hurting me too much. So I stopped then after a couple of years, well, after I graduated Actually, I moved from there to New York, like I said, to start a new life. I graduate into graduating here in New York, and I went back home. After graduation, I started therapy there, my mom had gone to therapy for her divorce, thank god bless her. And I started with that therapist, it took me six months before I started talking about it in therapy. It was group therapy. First time I ever heard of something like that. Powerful, powerful kind of therapy. And six months in he says okay, Nana so when are we going to talk about this? I'm like, “Yeah, well, maybe next session, but this problem with my mom, and my soon to be ex-husband, blah, blah, blah.” And he just took a sweater out of his neck that he always had started to wrap it around, and just jumped on me. And he created a like, he opened, he connected me with the moment. He just jumped on me as if it was attacking me. And I just couldn't breathe. It was horrible, but it was the only way to get me started on talking about it.
So I started working on it there, I ended up getting a divorce. Because like I said, you know, it was a marriage just couldn't survive that it was too much. So I got a divorce and then but I got better throughout through my therapy. And then over the years, it's been just healing in the sense of first being very clear that it wasn't my fault. Because I went over this a million times that I leave the door open, because I went into the apartment, went back outside to look for my mail and then came back in. And I blamed myself for leaving the door open for years. And the NYPD detective (someone else not the ones on the set) told me he had been watching you for a while this is not this was not a robbery who turned into a rape. And that scared the hell out of me thinking that this person had been watching me and then one day decided to do it. It's a very scary thing. So that, you know, I had to deal with that. So I didn't feel paranoid that everybody was watching me all the time. But it's been a process. You know, it's been between therapy and just awareness. The Act Feminine project has helped a lot, also.
Marissa: Tell me about that project.
Nana: Okay, so the project is about connecting women with their femininity. And of course, after hearing the story about the break, you can imagine why I was probably disconnected with my feminine. But the truth is, I wasn't because of just because of the rape. I realized that I had been disconnected from my feminine side. Basically all my life. I've been very masculine energy oriented all my life. My dad was my hero, I wanted to be with him all the time. We you know, there was no brothers in the family. And my dad was always fixing cars and doing things, and for me to be with him in that I had sort of to become his boy. So I did that, oh, my life. And my mom wasn't the best role model for her for feminine side. And I want to clarify this. This is not about nail polish or heels. It is about the energies that we all humans have the masculine and the feminine, or the Ying and the Yang. And people call it whatever name you want. But it's just these two polarities that we all have inside, you know about this, because we do it at Tony's events and talk about that. Actually, at a Tony event was when all of this dawned on me, because I got married, again, I'm divorcing my second husband, after 25 years And this has a lot to do with it. I was mostly in my masculine, which meant, our roles were reversed. And I wasn't fulfilled as a woman.
So I decided to create the Act Feminine because I see so many women out there, and they don't have to be abused, to be in this feminism and extreme feminism, with social environment with the economy, that it's fully operating on masculine energy, makes us women just become fighters and hunters all the time and little time for the feminine, which is what heals us. Which is what takes stress out. And this is not said by me, then you know, many experts are talking about this, when we don't go to our feminine side, as much, or at least half and half, we get sick, we get stressed beyond what is normal stress and stress that you can handle, we get sick, more women are dying from cancer than ever before. Heart disease is the number one cause of death, 2/3 of people with mental illness, Alzheimer's, dementia are women. So there are a lot of and I'm not saying that only this is the cause. But definitely, if we don't go to our feminine side, we don't relax. Our cortisol levels don't go down. We need oxytocin for that to happen. The only way to generate oxytocin, estrogen, dopamine, and serotonin is when we go to our feminine. Masculine energy generating testosterone in my body, all the time with cortisol becomes the time bomb. So that's why I started the project and obviously, being raped was like the last straw for me.
Marissa: The pinnacle of all of it.
Nana: Right? I was in my masculine energy a lot. And then the rape comes right when I'm starting a new life when I'm starting a new marriage. Oh, that was that was it for my femininity. It was like, Okay, so the energy that I feel comfortable in safe, with my masculine, which I still do, and I love.
Marissa: I'm the same way
Nana: I adore my masculine energy. And when I talk to women that are very extreme feminists, I say, you know, it's not about giving up. Because it really isn't, it's not about giving up rights. It's not about giving up your masculine, it’s just about learning how to use another side of you.
Marissa: It's balancing yourself, it's knowing that you don't have to fit into a stereotype. You know, you don't have to paint your nails every day and do your hair and makeup every day in order to be and feel like a woman.
Nana: Correct. And that is so important because people think of femininity, or the feminine energy as that. And that's why one of my mantras is “Femininity is not something you wear, it's something you feel.”
Marissa: Exactly. If I don't feel like brushing my hair, I don't.
Nana: And that's fine. You know that that's fine. That doesn't mean that you're not going to be connecting with people that you're not going to be creating. It has nothing to do with the outside.
Marissa: 100% thank you for sharing that. I think that's really an important thing for everyone. But I think especially for survivors and champions, I feel like the world paints such a vivid picture of what a victim should look like. And most of the time that's not accurate. So, I think at least, we get really confused and feel like we're not we're not victims or we don't deserve, you know, happiness or we don't deserve to feel better, because while it wasn't that bad, but it is that bad. It's always that bad. It doesn't matter what the situation was. And being able to engage both sides of your energy, I think allows us to be more forgiving of ourselves and more tolerant of our own processes.
Nana: Absolutely, absolutely. You just said something that made me made me think even further of this. Feminine-masculine energy for victims specifically, because when you were describing that I felt this little, my heart jumped a little bit and I said, Okay, I know why this just happened two seconds ago. And it happened because, in a way, what you're saying is so absolutely spot on. If you're a victim, in your mind, at least I felt that way. I can't be happy. I can't enjoy. I can't flow. Because then what kind of a victim am I? Nobody's gonna feel sorry for me. They're not gonna love me. They're not gonna, they're gonna say, Oh, really? You were abused? You don't look like it?
Marissa: Right? Oh, if you are a real victim, you'd be crying. You wouldn't talk about it? Well, no, I mean, that's not true. You smile. You're not a victim. If you were really raped or abused, you wouldn't be smiling or laughing. You know, and that's not that's not fair to survivors. It's not fair to paint that picture on them. Because it deters people from speaking up. And encourages low self esteem and self doubt.
Nana: Correct. Now, I'm going to tell it to every victim out there. The power from within of being happy and feeling joy and pleasure, though. I was victimized. That is the true power. That is the true revenge. If you want any kind of revenge. My revenge is I am the woman I am today because of what happened. And I have no doubt about that Marissa. No doubt. Zero.
Marissa: Yes, yes. I say the same thing. You know, I'm not happy about what happened to me. It's not like I celebrate it. But I celebrate the person I became because of it. Yes. Thank you, Nana. Yes.
Nana: Totally. And I say it over and over, like, not everybody. Well, I don't I very few people know about this, actually, compared to the people I know. And some people are going to be very surprised. But I always say that I used to say the therapy right, the therapy that I did at that time, made me into the person that I am today. Of course, they didn't know that I went there because of the rape. But it is I mean, I am this woman that I am today, sharing this being able to teach this being able to help other women because of what happened. And like you say Happy? Of course not. I mean, it was years of hell, months of hell of crying, and you know, I cried enough already. It was Hell. But this Heaven that I'm living in and striving for every day, came out of that. And I am grateful and blessed.
Marissa: Thank you so much for being here. And thank you so much. For all the beautiful advice and words of wisdom and strength that you embody and gave to us and all the survivors and champions out there. I am so honored to be your friend and if you need an extra or something in your movie, hit me up.
Nana: Oh, listen for the feature. We'll need a lot of people and help.
Marissa: Yes, perfect. I'm in sign me up.
Nana: I'll take your word. I'm gonna put that on the paper.
Marissa: Perfect. Thank you for listening and supporting survivors and champions all over the world. When we can encourage survivors to speak out about their abuse, we are slowly but surely changing the world for survivors and champions everywhere. If you're interested in supporting Nana's cause you'll find a link below to the Kickstarter for her movie. Thank you again so much for supporting me for supporting Nana and for supporting survivors everywhere. Talk to you next week.
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today we're joined with my friend and colleague, Rob Wruble. I met him at a retreat in California, and he is awesome. I'm so happy to have him here today. Rob is the award winning and bestselling author of Financial Freedom for Special Needs Families. He speaks regularly to family organizations, serving people with developmental disabilities, as well as two groups of professionals serving adults with developmental disabilities and their families. Hi, Rob. Thank you so much for being here today. I'm so excited to talk to you.
Rob: Marissa, I am too. When we first discussed this, maybe a month ago or so three weeks, I can't remember. I've been looking forward to it pretty much every day. So, I'm glad to be on and thanks for all the work that you do.
Marissa: Oh, my gosh, thank you for everything that you do. And that's really nice to hear. So, thank you, I was really excited as well. I've been talking about this a lot. I don't know if you know too much about financial abuse, and I know I've mentioned it in an earlier podcast episode. But a big reason why people survivors do not leave domestic violence situations is because of fear of finances. And a lot of them have endured financial abuse, which can range from either being told they're not allowed to have a job by their narcissist or being forced to work but not having any access to their household money. And that presents a huge problem for people to leave, because it requires a lot of money to leave to be able to get an apartment, especially if you have children. And to be able to feed yourself and your children. So, have you dealt with or worked with people who have had any sort of situation like this or any fear regarding having enough money to survive?
Rob: I have it's come up in so many different ways. And certainly, money is for so many people, a meaningful and stressful area of their lives. And I've definitely come across people who really don't have any access to money in the relationship at all. I haven't met that many and I don't have a specific way that said, Gee, I've got no access, I don't have any money. But I've definitely run across people who are who have hinted at that that all of their paycheck goes to their partner or spouse or whomever it is that they're currently living or afraid with. And I've met lots and lots of other people who just feel like they haven't ever been able to put two pennies together, let alone to have a few $100 or a few $1,000 to establish themselves and life. So, it's a huge issue, frankly, for a lot of different people. And the more I've thought about our upcoming talk and talk to some other experts in the field, realize what an issue it is for somebody who feels a little bit hopeless and doesn't necessarily know where their way out is. And so, I look forward to talking to maybe some strategies that can help people out a little bit.
Marissa: Awesome. What advice, have you given the people that you've worked with already? Who have dealt with similar situations? Is there anything that you can that you just off hand advice that you give them?
Rob: Yeah, there's probably three or four really different areas to think about. And there, they're obviously related, but they're very different. One is, and maybe we can come back to it is how do you have conversations with the person that you live with that you want more access to information about or control over the financial piece, but that's probably the very end because that's probably the biggest, hardest piece to get over. And obviously, for people in abusive relationships, when that may never, that conversation may never happen. There's a bunch of other things that people can do first, what I see a lot is that people just don't think that they can ever even have any money. And it doesn't necessarily come from the relationship partner, it may come from, how they were raised, or how they've always handled money in the past. And so, one way to think about is how are people successful with saving some money versus people that haven't had a chance to do it. And a lot of it when I when I meet and talk to people has to do with the messaging they got when they were younger. Some people were encouraged to you know, take their pennies and put them in a little piggy bank on their desk as a symbol of, hey, you've got some extra put it away. Other people grew up in situations where there just wasn't any extra money to go around. And so, they never got that piece. And so, a lot of times they have to think about what is it that you can do on personal behavior, to find ways to save money. And if you're in a relationship or you don't have a partner you can trust it's a little bit harder. But if you have access to any actual cash, and very often the easiest way to save the first little bit of money for people, and especially for people that are being watched, is to just have some cash available. And so, if you're the person that may be buying groceries and have some money and hopefully, you're not turning in the receipt, you know, is there an extra $5, $10, or $20 a week or a month that you can take and put into pocket. And so, there's a way sometimes just with the change that you get from, from your cup of coffee or a sandwich or something where you can start to accumulate, again, a few dollars is not going to be a lot. But really, I guess one of things that I see is for people who have never been able to put any money aside for anything, it's changing that behavior pattern. And so even if it looks like it's only 50 cents here, and $1 there and $5 there, watching that money add up in a safe and secure place, it might be in the glove compartment of a car, it might be at the bottom of a sock drawer, which is kind of an obvious place, so maybe not the best place. But it's changing that behavior pattern of saying, Okay, I'm the kind of person today that can actually take a little bit of the money that I have access to, and put it in a place where I can keep it, get it when I need to, and see that it's growing on a weekly, daily or monthly basis. And we see that, for people that might even be say saving into a retirement plan at work for the first time, that first paycheck, the second, third and fourth paychecks or money has come out a lot of times, it's the first time anybody's ever saved any money. And after a couple of months, there's a confidence level to the fact that they could put it to the side, that's so important for somebody to save for long term. And I think in the group of people that you talk to and work with, it’s so important to gain some confidence and control by taking very, very small steps. But taking those steps,
Marissa: I love the idea of taking little bits of money at a time and hiding it in a place where the narcissist won't find it a lot of the time in these abusive relationships, the abuser will have full access of the money, so won't really have the survivor won't really have cash on them, and if they do, it's very little. And if they do ever have access to any of the money, it's usually very highly secured or monitored by the abuser. So, I love the idea of little by little, even if it's just 50 cents, hiding it somewhere like in a shoe you don't wear is something that's pretty popular. Something that I've been doing, And I know that not a lot of survivors have this ability, because a lot of them don't have access to their money. But I've been bartending for 13 years and every $5 bill I get I put in a drawer. And so, at the end of the year, I have a ton of money saved up that I forgot about or didn't touch, and it ends up paying for a vacation.
Rob: No, I love that idea. And it's somehow creating some mental accounting for the thing, like you said, this $5 bill, they're going in the drawer, my daughter used to love Hamilton or still does love Hamilton. And for the first time she ever had a $10 bill on her hand, she's like, I am never spending that. And so, on some level, that's a different one, when people have access to the money is finding some tricks to say that money, I'm not going to touch that money, I'm not going to touch and then it's there. And so that's a different situation for you, or in that case for my daughter. And for somebody who really doesn't have any access at all. But it is finding those little ways, and what we see so often is that it's the really small changes at the beginning, can have really big impacts. And that impact may not be for a month or two or in some cases a year or two.
But it's the person that we become by making those small changes. And so, for the group that we're talking to today, I would imagine that so much of it is gaining a little bit of confidence that slowly, again, I don't know all the dynamic particularly well. But that feeling that I, “Hey, I can't hold down a job and should be allowed to do that I can have my own money. And there's nobody that can take that away from me. I can maintain family relationships, and social relationships," that have all been whittled down from what I understand so often and in abusive relationships, the freedom really starts with having that seed of independence. And that comes from having something in somewhere where people can be confident. And one of the great things about money as much as it can be a pain in the neck all the time. And there's never enough of it. And some people seem to have lots and lots and lots of it and don't good, do good things with it. But one of the things about money is it's very tangible and very countable. And so, while we might want to become a better person in some way, or might want to exhibit time, and independence and freedom in some way, that's a little bit harder to measure. Even there, you can come up with metrics but money like if it's 50 cents here, $3 there and $8 there, we can go and count it and we can even say this, it was on this many days, I was able to put the money away. And it lets us as people start to feel like we're making some progress in a very tangible and very measurable way.
Marissa: I love that I think you're totally right on being able to be financially independent, even in a very small way, saving little by little but knowing that it's growing, it really does build confidence. That's a really good point. The cost to leave an abuser, let’s just say you're starting from nothing. And you might not know the answer to this question, but what would you think would be a good goal for them as a financial planner to be able to effectively leave?
Rob: No, and so often we look at what is that goal, what's it going to take in every city is going to be different. I'm in Colorado, where an apartment probably for two, or three or four people is going to be, gee keeps going up, it's going to be $1,000 a month to $1,800 a month. Whereas 10 or 15 years ago, you could probably move to someplace for $600 a month, it just gets a little bit harder to do that. So, as you know, a lot of apartment places you need to have first month and last month rent, that's probably not the right way to think about it, because there's also a lot of other places that are out there that tend to be on by individuals that tend to be smaller apartment buildings, one or two-family type houses that have been divided up into a couple of different apartments. And you're just looking for something to get by for the first period of time. And so really, I'd want somebody to have one, two, probably three months of rent, there's some other strategies, and we're going to get to about that. But that's probably, you know, in an ideal world, somebody could have two or three months of rent ready to go, and then enough money to put food on the table for the family. And then enough money for utilities, we're just trying to build a life quickly, and get out quickly and find a place to go. So, you're looking at few $1,000 probably get somebody out in almost city in almost any city in the country. But there's a lot of other strategies people can put in place that don't require as much money. And these are, again, confidence building exercises that somebody could start with, that aren't specifically financial in, in Colorado Springs where I live. And I know pretty much in every community of a decent size around the country. There are lots of nonprofits that serve people who have abusive relationships. There are lots of organizations that serve people that are homeless. And I would say for the most part that a single parent who is homeless with children can probably find an organization that's going to get them housing and even pay for that housing, often for 90 days into one of the other things that somebody could do, if they have any access to the internet, obviously, you're going to want to hide browser histories from somebody, but in your community, take a look go to the homeless organizations online. Very often they are having a specific program for families who are on the streets, or who might be on the streets, and they can use them. Every community has a women's not even just women only but an organization that serves people who are abused. And I know again, there, it's very hard for people to make that first call and get there. But these organizations are so good about coaching people on how to be more confident, what steps to take how to get out of a place. And they often have housing for a period of time as well. So those aren't long term solutions, but it's making that initial contact with the outside world can be so fruitful and can reduce the amount of money that somebody actually needs.
Marissa: You mentioned that you learned a couple strategies. Would you mind sharing?
Rob: Yeah, so one of them was, you know, just starting to save a little bit of money at a time. So, some of these strategies really are about the people we become as we start to change and look for something else. So how do you reduce your financial need to get in touch with nonprofits, there are usually friends or family that people have lost contact with through abusive relationships that I know of personally, that happens. And it's very hard for people to pick up the phone and make that call to somebody to say, “Hey, I'm in trouble, or I need help,” or, “here's what I need,” and it may be that they don't have anybody, most people have somebody they can go to. And there again, somebody may have an extra room in their house for a couple of weeks or a month, where somebody can get out pretty quickly and reduce the financial need that’s going to get them there. You mentioned very early that people are often controlled to where they aren't even allowed to work. And so, one of the other bright spots in our world today is that there's a very, very low unemployment rate. And so, there's a lot of people who think they can't get a job, that they don't have any skills, they haven't worked for six months, a year, two years. But the reality is when I walk around, there are for hire signs just about everywhere. And it may not be the ideal job, but it's usually enough for somebody to get moving and get started. So, a lot of the strategies are less about specific financial side, we'll come back to the financial a little bit and more on what opportunities are there. And can somebody start to feel a bit confident about what they're going to do. There's another strategy on the financial side that I do want to talk about. And this is for people that would be working, if they're working in a place where there's a retirement account, and they can put money into that retirement account that starts to money that is outside the control of anybody else. Now if they're in abusive relationship and somebody is monitoring every transaction in every paycheck that's going to be found pretty quickly. A lot of companies match these days. Somebody could be saving into a retirement account and depending on whether they're going to change jobs or not, if they leave that company, they may have access to money into we've worked with people who were just out of one of the companies that work with had a lot of people were actually just out of jail. And none of those people had ever saved any money before. In some of those people, after they'd worked in that company for years, started putting money in. And several of them made the comment, this was the first time I've ever had money in my life. They didn't have a lot of money but it was the first time they had money on the sidelines that they couldn't touch while they were working there. And some of them had moved on to another job, but or we're going to lose their apartment, and needed access to the $500 or $1,000 that they had saved, to be able to live until they were able to use a retirement account as a way to escape whatever else has happened for them. It's not the world's best strategy. But again, it's another place of just trying to find out, where is it that I can put some money together. And so sometimes you can use a 401k at work. And there may even be a match maybe free money from the employer on that, to start to stash some money away, that might be able to use be used in the right circumstances to buy a period of time of freedom.
Marissa: Do you know of any accounts outside of 401k’s that are like that. So high interest, like I know money market accounts sometimes have higher interest and banks like Capital One 360 and Ally Bank that don't actually have any brick or mortar banks have higher interest rates. But do you know of any accounts or anything like that any banks that would be good to use to stash money away little by little with higher interest rates?
Rob: Yeah, you know, when somebody is just getting started, or just trying to put some funds together. For the first few months of living, or even the first year of living, in the basics of financial planning, we like to have people have what are called emergency funds. So, if something wrong happens, there's money there. For somebody in the situation, who's just trying to get out and establish themselves with whatever kind of living situation, put food on the table and pay their basic utilities and gas bills, interest rate doesn't matter at all. So, it's nice to get a little bit of interest and if you put money into a bank, and you put it into a checking account, usually those checking accounts don't pay you any interest. But if you put it into a savings account, or like you said, if you can find a high yield savings account, whatever money you having in that account might earn half a percent or 1%. And so, your money just sitting there is earning a little bit of extra money for you. And it's a great thing to have. Don't ever discount that interest being paid is just extra money for you down the road. But it's really secondary, the purpose of having those emergency funds in place at all. The purpose, there is easy access to money. And whether it's paying you a quarter of a percent, half a percent or 1%, the bigger piece of it is, can I access it today when I need it. And so sometimes when you get into higher interest accounts, they may have a little bit of restrictions on it. But even if they don't, it's not so important whether you earn a little bit more a little bit less on your emergency funds. The most important thing is I can go to the ATM or to the bank or write a check and that money is there immediately. And so, while it's good to get those, it's not something I get too caught up in because again, I just want instant access when I need it. And that's you know, getting into the situation of financial abuse is one of the nice things today is somebody can go online, they can open up an account online, they can, if they can figure out how to get money there, which is sometimes the problem would be online systems and things, they can get all their statements delivered electronically. Or they can often in some cases, even turn them off, or set up a phantom email address to get it. So, there are ways to not have quite the same degree of paper trail that are out there, and so that's not a bad way to go for somebody who's just building these up and needs to keep a degree of secrecy around it. Obviously, in a better relationship, everybody knows where you know, who's got what and how it's all working. But because of the ability to do everything online today, it's not a bad way to go and even there's some app-based accounts now that, again, depending on the situation, some of them I believe, round up. So, if you're paying with a debit or credit card, and you pay $3.95 or something for five cents can go into a savings account. And if you pay $2.10, the 90 cents would go into a savings account. And I know somebody who is using one of those services, who ended up saving far more than she expected. Not enough to, you know, take a trip anywhere or anything big like that. But she was surprised at how quickly just rounding up actually added up for her. And that's how she built a little bit more actually than her emergency fund.
Marissa: That's a really good idea too, because then it's not like you said there's no paper trail, and it's automatic. So, it's not like you have to hide the change. It's off a debit card.
Rob: And it may I don't know how it would show up on the debit card statement, if somebody is really looking at it, you know that, hey, 45 cents once to XYZ app company, but somebody could explore that a little bit more and let you in, let me know, I'd be interested to hear. Yeah. So where can you squirrel away money. And cash is still the best way to do that. getting access to, like I said, trying to find other ways to save money, whether like an online bank account, one of these apps, money into a retirement account at work. Those are kind of three different ways I think that people might be able to think about, how do I start to put some money aside that I can just get to when I need it, for one case, can't always get to when you need, it's not the best strategy, but it can work in certain circumstances.
Marissa: But 401K's are great if the person is working or able to hold a job, as per their narcissist, like you said, because you're surviving without that money anyways, it's like it doesn't exist. And then one day, you get a letter in the mail saying that you have X amount of money saved up that you can move to an IRA or something if you needed to.
Rob: If you leave the employer, you can actually access into that, again, looking at a strategy, how do you get out? How do you build up a nest egg that if you need a couple of months of living expenses, you might be able to access it, the 401k could do that for certain people? And so that's an option. It's much better as a long-term strategy. But I'm just looking at ways ahead of you get money side-cared outside of the household where the abuser lives that maybe they don't even know about. And so that's one, I'm banks, or bricks and mortar banks, again, because you can actually walk in and make deposits. And even now you can turn off all the statements, and they can all be delivered electronically, I think from probably every bank, I think actually could prefer it. So those are just a couple of different ways where you could put money. The other piece competes have financial conversations with somebody who's trying to control you.
Unfortunately, there's probably no way to have that as a Healthy Working conversation. But if somebody has not yet been had all of their power, and all of their access, and all of their ability to have a say, taken away, and somebody starts to see that happening, a real clear way to find out whether this is healthy or not is to start to say, “Hey, we need to have a regular meeting about money.” And so, for somebody who's kind of going in that direction, where things aren't working, and start to say to their partner, let's have more clear-cut goals and conversations around money. And if that answer is, “No, I do all of this and you can't do it, you shouldn't do it, you're not capable of doing it.” It's just such a huge red flag in any relationship, that something isn't right. And so hopefully, if people use that, on the earlier side, they may recognize, oh, I've got to take some different steps here, I'd be there got to continue to advocate for that. I've got to get into a therapeutic relationship for me, and maybe this relationship as a whole or maybe, hey, this is just not going to work And I'm lucky I found out. Now, before this case got worse over time. And again, a lot of relationships don't do a good job of talking about money. But if you're in one, and you're not sure if it's in his relationship or not and you start to say let's talk about money, and I want to be involved in it. And you get shut down really, really quickly, and then also denigrated along the way, that's just such a clear sign and take it as a clear sign that something is not right. And you don't have to put up with it.
Marissa: That's awesome advice. And very true. There is a whole cycle of abuse, and I'm sure you're aware of but it starts off in the honeymoon phase and then travels to the tension building phase where you're walking on eggshells, and the survivor doesn't know what they can or can't say to piss off the narcissist and then an explosion happens. And once the explosion happens, that's when the cycle restarts and it keeps restarting. And I know I have a whole other podcast episode about the cycle of abuse and all that it entails. But once you start to see red flags, I think this goes back to confidence, like you were saying as well as you have to trust your instincts, you know, look for the yellow flags and the red flags and trust them. And if it doesn't feel right, then leave. If it doesn't feel right, then then take that as a clear sign.
Rob: Yeah, and if you don't have access to money to live your life, to me, that's a huge clear sign as well. It's just it's a fundamental way of how we all work in society that people can if they can afford it, want to go buy a cup of coffee, whether it's at the local deli or you know a $5 Frappuccino someplace depending on what they can afford, and they're taken to task for it and brought down in the in a not a positive way. And the conversation isn't, “Hey, we're trying to budget and that was outside of our budget. What can we do to fix this?” and it's all negative, negative, negative? Yeah, it's a huge issue in any relationship, and one that bears having significant conversations about whether it's really yourself or finding a therapist or a family member and saying how am I going to get this to change and if it doesn't change, probably not a relationship that’s ever going to work. And again, little bits of confidence, putting a little bit of money away, frankly, having the confidence and I know, it's very difficult to say, I'd like to be involved in the conversation, because you're going to find out with that simple question, whether you're going to get a positive response, you're going to get that fair to middling responses could be a person that doesn't matter, you're going to get a really negative response. And so, the conversation around money, that behavior around money is very, very telling. And whether or not a relationship has a chance to really go anywhere or not. Now it can be fixed in a healthy relationship, and it just can't be in a toxic relationship. Again, one of the things about money is it's very tangible. It's very obvious what's happening with it, and so it can be used as a benchmark for the bigger relationship that might not be functioning well, like you talked about in the cycle before to the honeymoon phase, you're going to find out pretty quickly in the with the money part are you in the honeymoon phase is it all being taken away. And as opposed to, hey, let's go out to dinner, you know, and other things that might be more fulfilling and satisfying emotionally. Again, the money's a little bit of a dry part. But it's a huge area that you can gauge what's happening.
Marissa: You mentioned at the beginning, and so I don't want to get off of people who are still in abusive relationships and move to people who have left and find that they're struggling a little bit. A lot of the tips and tricks that you mentioned before where you know, the roundups in your bank account and saving the extra change in like a piggy bank or something and just watching that money grow and grow and grow, that would be really effective for people who have already left as a means of saving money. Because chances are, if you left an abusive relationship, where there was a lot of financial abuse, you're starting from ground zero, do you have any other ideas for people like that in those situations that can help them outside of the ones that we've mentioned already?
Rob: One of the things when people are just starting out, and for somebody who's gotten out of the relationship, they're now standing up on their own. Hopefully, they're talking to everybody to know what resources are available, whether that's section eight housing, or food stamps, or whatever it's called in your community just to cut the expense side of it a little bit. And then like I said, it's in today's environment, it's not always easy to find work that can support a full household, but it's usually fairly simple to find some work. And then so one of the things people have to do is, again, change that mindset to say, “How am I going to start to put little bits away?” and it's that round up. When my kids were younger, we had a big jug. And anytime we had some extra change, it all went in there and went into a place where we could see it, because it was that same piece of how do we make money tangible? And how do we know we're putting some away. So, whether you do it that way, a little bit into a bank account, probably one of these apps is even better than a bank account, because banks tend to charge a decent amount to people who don't have enough to keep in there right away. So those really don't change, it just becomes even more important than somebody that on their own, to build emergency funds. So that if a job is lost, or there's a health issue that comes up, there's some money there and credit cards aren't being used, and debt isn't there, and they don't have to go back to somebody else and ask for money. And so, money again becomes a symbol of when I start to have it in the bank, I'm starting to gain some independence. What we see also, and not everybody budgets, because budgeting is just people don't ever seem to like it, is every time you get paid, taking a little bit of it, and putting it someplace is a huge piece. So not just rounding up from change and not just throwing pennies into a big jug. Thinking out of every paycheck I get, I'm going to put 1% or 5% or $25 or $50 into the bank at the beginning and then into long term savings afterwards, is how people start to be able to step up a little bit.
We also see that people are carrying lots of debt, until I would I've come to understand sometimes an abusive relationship to that the debt is all carried by the person who's being abused. And so, they're even if they do move out, they may have car payments that are on cars they don't even actually own or don't have access to. And so somewhere along the way, and this is not a first couple of months issue, but it's a first year or two issue is just listing out everybody and every organization that you owe money to and how much it is every month and starting to focus on what's most important or not. And in some cases, it makes sense to not pay debt, and pay utility bills and housing bills and food first. So, sometimes we see people that are really struggling with debt, and they're just never going to make it and they're going to have to lose that car or if they own a condo or a house, they're going to have to lose that condo or house because they won't be able to feed their family otherwise. And we see a lot of times with debt collectors, or I've heard many, many times they're very vocal on the phone. And I've even talked to people that said I'm paying my car payment of $400 a month that I can't really afford. And I'm not, you know, I'm not turning the lights on in my house except for at night for an hour or something, because I can't pay my utility bill either, once. So, in that, in those cases, sometimes people have to really look at what are their fundamental core expenses to live as independently as possible, may not be a great style of living. That is what has to be paid first, food, utilities and place to live, and probably health insurance. The lender on your car probably doesn't need to be paid before you go to the grocery store. And so, people sometimes have to shift their priorities, because they're, they're responding to a loud person on the phone is saying they have to make a $250 payment. Instead of realizing no, they actually need $150 of that to feed their kids. And so again, a lot of is just a mindset mind set shift that people have a hard time making, and understandably so. So, when they realize take care of food, utilities, and house first, put a little bit of money on the side. Next, all that other stuff is noise, and it's going to work itself out one way or the other.
Marissa: That's so true. And I just have two pieces that I want to snowball off of what you just said, because I think that what you just said is super important. First and foremost, when you said that you can take a percentage or a financial number, and kind of skim it off of the top of your weekly or bi-weekly or daily paycheck, you can actually set up bank accounts that will auto do that, like it'll auto deposit $25 of your deposit into a separate account. So, I do that actually, all the time, where x amount, or I did when I had my full-time job at the army, I think I did 10% or 15% of every paycheck would go into a bank account and Ally Bank that I just kind of forgot about and I didn't have to think about it. So, when I'd look at my bank statement, that money was already gone And I forgot about it. And it didn't exist in my budget. So that money was just being saved. And I'd have to budget around that money not being there.
Rob: Yeah, that a lot of people call that pay yourself first, take some money, like said right off the top that goes somewhere else, you can't touch it. And then you don't plan on it every month for your spending, and you've just saved some money, it's great way to go and if you can automate it even better.
Marissa: I know a lot of banks do. I don't know about every bank or anything. But that was a good point. So, thank you for bringing that up. And the second thing was, I love that you said the loud people on the phone, because I hate when they call because they are, they're loud, and they yell at you and they make you feel bad. A lot of the time, you can tell them, “Listen, I've had a change of finances, and I can't afford this payment, is there any way we can reduce the payment or is there any way that you can give me like a 60 day on hold or something, hold for 60 days or something,” and they'll call you back in 60 days, and then you can start paying again. But it gives you an opportunity to gather money, it gives you an opportunity to, like you said before prioritize, and it gives people an opportunity to not have to stress about so many things at once. Because I mean, you're totally right. A lot of the time the debt does follow the survivor because it's a mechanism of control from the abuser.
Rob: Yeah, and you're stuck with it. And those people are just going to have to wait, you know, and that goes back to that confidence, little pieces at a time competence just doesn't come overnight. But one of the things people can remember is, if you can't pay something, you can just tell them you can't pay it, and that you don't intend to pay it as well. And by the way, you don't want to be harassed over the phone. And so, it's just another way where we get to exhibit some self-determination and control, we may have to pay that debt at some point. And we may actually have voted. And so, I'm not saying if you can pay it just turn away from it. But it's this sort of looking for strategies and then also telling people who are not being kind to, you know, take a walk is always feels good to me. So, again, nothing financial about that one. But it is another financial strategy where it's Take care of yourself and the most important parts of yourself first. And then you can start to work on those things that are really around the edges from a survival point of view.
Marissa: That's a good way to build your confidence tell the telemarketers and the people that are that are hounding you for money to piss off.
Rob: You don't know them. I mean, they may be very nice people but you don't know they don't know you they're making judgments about you, you can make a couple of judgments back so.
Marissa: It’s a good plan. I think next time I get a phone call like that I'm just going to take a long walk off a short pier.
Rob: And I always try to be kind too, but sometimes you get people that you know, they're just never going to be nice and it might be the same person and sometimes you you've got to bring up your attitude level to match theirs unfortunately, but…
Marissa: Standing up for yourself is a big leap forward in healing from emotional abuse.
Rob: So, you know, I just don't think there's any when I think about it, like how you get started on savings and building some Financial Peace there's no like super-secret way of doing it. That's complicated that the regular people don't know about that's not it all comes down to very, very simple to talk about sometimes hard to do behaviors. And it is that little bit at a time, build the confidence. And then it just starts to bloom over time. And so, you know, as you're thinking about it, and people listening or thinking about it, you don't have to make it any more complicated than taking $25 out of every paycheck, or 5% out of every paycheck, or all of your change shows, or three, just simple to think about ways to do it. And you'll see it happening as you do it. And it's just exciting to watch when it happens.
Marissa: There are times where I forget that I automatically put money in an account. And I'll open that app and be like, Oh, my God, I have $500. Where did that come from? And it's in the grand scheme of life, It's not that much, but it's like a happy surprise for me.
Rob: Yeah. And then as you get further along, that either those will grow, or you'll say, Oh, I can use that $500 now to do something that I want to do, and not have to have, you know, don't have enough emergency funds in other places. And so, yeah, just it really ends up being a great thing, if you can just do a little bit at a time.
Marissa: The last thing I want to get back to in the very beginning, you said, a lot of people don't believe that they will have or deserve to have money. What do you tell those people when they say that?
Rob: Yeah, and it's interesting, because I don't always know where it's coming from, when that comment gets made. I think there's, again, a couple of things people can do about it.
One is, look around the people who you hang out with. And very often the conversation among those people is, I don't have anything, I'm never going to have anything. You know, the little guy can't get ahead in today's world. And people tend to hang out with people that have that same conversation who don't ever get anywhere, And because it's a self-fulfilling piece. So, part of it is where's all that messaging coming from? Is it coming from family, when you grew up? Is it coming from the people that you hang out with? Those are the two biggies. And if you can just recognize that those messages are coming from everybody around me, and I don't have to put up with it anymore. Again, we're talking mind shift here, or attitude shift to saying, I'm not going to do that. I want to live a better life than that. And I'm going to make some changes starting this week, this month, and next month to get there. That is always the starting point for how people go from that never have any money to I'm building money, reserves, wealth, retirement, whatever they want to call it. And so, the messages that are around you every day, that's a big piece of it. The other piece of it is we live in a world where we are messaged all the time on ways to spend our money. And so, like I always want the new phone or I want the new plan or the new shoes or I want to eat it Applebee's instead of eating at home. And so, people make lots and lots of decisions that they don't really think too much about, because they've been pulled in some direction or other. Jia has to have this to be happy, or I don't want to do this. So, I'm going to just spend money to make it happen. And I see that I can eat at home, I can eat healthier at home, and far less money than by eating out. And so again, depending where somebody is and their process of putting some money together, there are many ways that we spend money that we really don't have to. And so, we're again, for somebody starting out who's not got enough necessarily to do a lot of extra, that's a little bit harder to do. But as it starts to be a little bit more, what people tend to do is they make more, they spend more, and they're still in that exact same spot, no emergency funds, no money going into retirement account. So, for somebody who's getting out of an abusive relationship and may have gotten into their first job, and maybe now has like, you know, just enough to make things happen. It's bare bones and whatever you have to do, you have to but then six months from now a year from now you get a raise, or you move to a different place, and you get a little bit more money. When most of the time happens, people just spend that money. And what they don't say is I can spend a little bit of that money but more of that needs to go to savings more that needs to go to pay off debt, or some of that needs to go to retirement accounts. And so, it's those critical decisions, and people are just starting to move from that bare bones to that next level that really will make the difference over the next 5-10 -20 years.
Marissa: That's awesome. Thank you so much for all that. Is there anything else you want to talk about any programs or anything that you're working on that you want to shout out?
Rob: So, I'm a you know, a financial planner, and part of my specialty is families who've got a member with down syndrome or autism or some kind of intellectual developmental disabilities, although really, I work with all kinds of people around the country. And if people want to find out more about me, they can go to RobWrubel.com, and just kind of see what we're about, if it's a good fit. Like I said, I'm so excited that you decided to have me on and had lots of conversations and thinking through, see when somebody is really just getting started and how do they get out of the relationship and have a get some control and power back. I just realize it's such an important topic, not just for people who are in abusive relationships, but really for just about everybody. Because those very, very basic behaviors don't change. Now, somebody's ability to own it and feel good about it, are obviously different. And, and so I just really want to say thank you for the work that you're doing, and encouraging people to get out there and have happy and more positive on the financial side lives and just, you know, blossom as people. It's unfortunate that so many people have the need, but it's exciting that you're out there helping them.
Marissa: I really appreciate that. Thank you. And if we collectively help one person get out and not go back, I think the percentage right now is 80% of people that leave abusive relationships go back, and a large percentage of that is financially based, then I think that we've succeeded, you know, and thank you for everything that you've shared. You've given a lot of awesome tips to save money, you’re just such a good person and I encourage anyone who's interested in financial planning or finding out more information to reach out to rob. He is friendly and fun and he's a wealth of knowledge. You can find his book Financial Freedom for Special Needs Families is available on Amazon, as well as his website, www.RobWrubel.com and feel free to reach out to him with any financial based questions. I'm sure he'd be happy to work with you and answer them for you.
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Welcome to a special episode of Healing From Emotional Abuse. I know that we’ve all received email blasts about Covid-19 from every mailing list we’ve ever signed up for, at least I did, about what every company is doing to take precautions. That’s great. I’m joining those people, but more as a PSA.
In the midst of this craziness with Corona-pocalypse, I want to spread a Kindness PSA.
Abusers and Narcissists are most likely working from home now, as most people, at least in various states are confined to their homes. And even if they're not, the world is in a chaotic state. That became really apparent when people started fighting in supermarket aisles over toilet paper, and I almost got run over in Walmart by another shopper to get to the gatorade first.
The heightened stress will typically increase abusive explosions and survivors don’t have anywhere to go. Everyone is quarantined, self-quarantined, or just encouraged to stay in their homes. Leaving is hard when the world is not in financial ruin and slowly crumbling to the ground around us. However, now, when everyone is afraid of Covid / Coronavirus and trying to manage and reduce the spreading of it, it will be more difficult for survivors to leave their abusers. For a few reasons.
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Shelters might be stricter on taking in new people for fear of infecting the safe house and other survivors living there.
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There will be less of a chance or opportunity for them to flee safely, because the abuser will always be home. They will be monitored.
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Gathering and securing any money to leave will be more difficult, because there are limited resources for securing income.
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The chance for fatalities becomes heightened from both Mob Mentality, and from Abusive Explosions.
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The healthcare and hospitals that survivors would go to after an incident will most likely be full, or limited in the medical care that they can provide.
For all of these reasons, I wanted to try and do my part in spreading kindness and empathy towards each other. We are living through a scary time. If not for us personally, then for friends and family members who will be more aggressively affected by this covid virus.
People become selfish, and aggressive, with an “every man for themselves” mentality. THAT is the most dangerous part. The fact that there are videos of people fighting over a roll of toilet paper makes me sad. This is the most opportune time to deny psychologists the explanation that stressful situations tear communities apart, and instead come together and help support each other. We are more likely to survive and thrive in times of stress and hardship when every man is for everyone - sharing resources, and support. Those of us that have outside the home battles in addition to the inside the home battles, like abuse, need empathy and comfort more than ever. And I hope that this strong and beautiful community can come together and give them that.
But, that does not mean to put your family at risk. Some things you can do for survivors at this time, that won’t put you or your family in jeopardy are:
- Give the survivors in your life love and support to know that they aren’t alone, and have a place to run or people that will empower them when they are ready and able to leave.
Safety Planning Guide
- Help them research shelters and nonprofits that are available when the time is right.
Safety Planning Guide
- Help them find places to secure money, maybe into a separate bank account where their abuser cannot access it or see it.
That doesn’t mean to give them money, but helping them keep their money safe. A lot of times people will hide change or hide money throughout their house, and that might pose a problem when the abuser is always home. Financial abuse.
Safety Planning Guide
- Help to create a safety plan with them of where and how they can get out and go when the quarantines are over, and they have a safe opportunity to leave.
The reason I do not recommend invite survivors into your house in times like this is, the abuser will have plenty of time to search for them, and that could put you and your family in danger. You do not want the abuser to come break down your door and hurt you or your family. To be proactive in keeping everybody safe, I would follow these four guidelines in helping, so that when quarantines are over and when people can leave their houses again, they’re very prepared.
Safety Planning Guide
I also think it’s important to mention that in crisis situations and natural disasters, the rate of emotional abuse, physical abuse, verbal abuse, rape and sexual assault also increase. That could be being displaced, in a shelter, staying in an unfamiliar place, or even in your home. But people are losing control of their reality. Everything in the routine is different - so people lose their minds and, abusers grab for control where they can. I am by NO MEANS justifying any sort of violent act — not rape or sexual assault, emotional abuse, physical abuse, financial abuse, or any sort of abuse. I just wanted to help bring situational awareness.
Be aware of your surroundings. If you’re in a shelter or know someone in a shelter, be cautious and aware or encourage them to do so. If you’re staying with someone, anyone, a stranger, a friend of a friend, a friend of yours, a family member, or anyone outside of your normal housing situation, you can be at an increased risk of emotional abuse, sexual assault, physical abuse. Take precautions to keep yourself safe.
I can’t stress enough the importance of evading the mob mentality. In crisis situations, there are more fatalities from looting, riots and chaos, than there are from the actual virus. If everyone could reach out to someone they know that might need a little bit of comfort, that could make the world a better place, and make this scary situation a little easier to handle. Reach out to the elderly people in your family and in your neighborhood. See if there is anything you can do to help them, or make this easier. A lot of elderly people are walking around supermarkets just trying to get the bare minimum, and there’s nothing left for them. Do you party, do what you can, do what you can to make this easier for the people who are at a heightened risk. And if that means giving up one roll of toilet paper, do it.
Keep yourself, your family, and your community safe. Wash your hands with soap, not just sanitizer. And drink a lot of water.
Talk to you soon! Send loving energy out there! That way, we can all get through this together.
Safety Planning Guide
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Today, I wanted to read a couple of the stories from my books: Breaking Through the Silence, the Journey to Surviving Sexual Assault and Breaking Through the Silence: #Me(n)Too. Both of these books are compilations of survivor stories, told from their voices, in their words, including my own. To help all survivors become champions and take their lives back, feel empowered and feel relatable to other survivors. I want every survivor to know that they are not alone, and what happened to them was not their fault.
These are real stories from real people that have endured and overcome their abuse and assaults. These stories are in the words of the champions, so there may be some inappropriate language or triggering content. Be mindful while to listening to keep yourself safe. Thank you so much for listening and supporting champions of abuse.
All the stories being told today can be found in my books, Breaking Through the Silence, the Journey to Surviving Sexual Assault and Breaking Through the Silence: #Me(n)Too, available on my website at www.marissafayecohen.com/the-books or on Amazon. Like I mentioned before, these are all from the voices of the survivors. They had complete control over their stories. Every champion that signed on to help me with the Breaking Through the Silence series, voiced their intention to use their stories to help other survivors feel empowered by knowing that you are not alone.
The first story I’m going to read is from Breaking Through the Silence, the Journey to Surviving Sexual Assault. It’s called, Will You Become One of My Friday Night Regulars, on page 62.
Will You Become One of My Friday Night Regulars?
I’ve talked about my abuse with my daughters, but not with my son or husband. I’ve never told him, because I felt it would be so hurtful for him to know. I told my daughters that this is uncomfortable, but I wanted them to know what happened to me to make sure they knew how to take care of themselves. Yes, you should be able to do what you want and be safe, but in this world, you just never know who’s a predator.
I was a freshman in college, and it was my first time away from home. I was naive; I was not a virgin, but I was very naive about how things worked in the world. I was much more trusting than I became in the end. I went to a party with a male friend of mine, hosted by his friend who was on the soccer team. I had too much to drink, as often happens in school your freshman year, and apparently, I passed out. My friend was hanging around the party waiting for me to be awake enough for him to try and get me home. The host of the party (my friend’s friend) said, “Don’t worry, just leave her here. I’ll take care of her when she comes to.” Of course, my friend thought nothing of it. After all, he was an athlete, a buddy, and a good boy from a good school.
I came to, completely out of it, and knowing that something was going on. This guy was on top of me. I was so confused because I was drunk, and I wasn’t sure about what was happening. Then I felt extreme pain, and boy, that sobered me up. He was about 6’6 or 6’7. I was not aroused in the slightest. He ulcerated my vulva. I yelled for him to stop, but he continued to do it anyway. Afterward, I was still drunk, but also in shock. There was blood on the sheets. He said, “I didn’t know you were a virgin.” I said, “I wasn’t,” to which he responded, “I better take you home.”
When I came in, my roommate was still up. She looked at me and said, “You’re bleeding.” There was blood on my legs, between my thighs. She thought I had my period and was trying to warn me, but I just started freaking out, wailing, and crying. She couldn’t get out of me what was happening, so she called my friend that I went to the party with. He came over and managed to calm me down, and get out of me what happened. When they realized what had happened, we didn’t even know what to do. Who knew? There was no guidance; there was nothing -- this was the 1970’s. He took me to the Health Services building, and the doctor asked me if I wanted to call the police. At this time, self-preservation had kicked in, and I said no. I just wanted to make it all stop somehow. The doctor said, “I will say this was obviously not consensual. This was not willing, you don’t have tears in your vulva from nothing.” I just said, “No, no, I want to go home. I just want to go home. I just want to go home.”
Then, the harassment started. The whole thing couldn’t have taken two weeks, maybe more. Everyone had whiteboards on their doors, and the next day when I came back from class, somebody had written that I was a slut on my door. Then notes started being pushed under my door. Notes that called me a dirty whore, and if I say anything they will tell everyone that I’m a dirty slut. I had no idea what to do. There was a knock on my door one time, and when I opened the door, there was my attacker. He wanted to know if we could go out and talk. I told him, “No. I never wanted to see your face again.”
He was just standing there looking ashamed and uncomfortable, and then he said, “So, my coach says that he knows that you had another boyfriend and that your old boyfriend (who was also a soccer player), is willing to testify that you’re a slut and you would sleep with anybody.” I just looked at him and told him, “You just get out of my face. Just get the fuck away from me and stay the fuck away from me.”
He tried to see me one more time after that. He called me and said that he had to talk to me. I called up two male friends of mine who were on the track team, big guys, in an absolute panic. Why didn’t I call the police, campus security, call my dorm, I don’t know. The guy showed up, and my two very large friends were just sitting there. They stood up and said, “If you didn’t understand her, she said she never wants you to contact her again.” I never heard from the guy ever again. Thankfully I got past that, and I was lucky enough to have no sexual problems as a result. I’m thankful to have had support, not just from women, but also from male friends.
When I was 23 or 24, I had a boyfriend who was violent toward me. He was quiet and seemed unassuming. He had a lot of interesting stories from being a roadie with my favorite rock band. Things seemed fine at first, and then he started having what began as little hissy fits.
For example, once we were going to a concert and when we got to our seats, he didn’t like the view from the seats. I remember saying, “Well, it doesn’t matter. These seats are fine. We can see fine.” All of a sudden he got up and stormed off. Now, had I been a different woman, I would have thought, “what the fuck, asshole?” stayed, watched the concert, got a cab home, and never saw him again. Because I am how I am, I asked, “What, what’s happening?” I started grabbing my coat, followed him and kept asking what happened and what was wrong. Of course, I was thinking, “What did I do?” because he made it seem like my fault.
From there, it progressed. He would be overwhelmingly lovey-dovey and romantic one moment, and then would be the smack-down. It was a lot of emotional abuse. One moment he would say, “I love you, I love you,” and then “I don’t want you to do that, and you’re going to do it anyway, and I’m not going to speak to you.” For example, one night, my friend asked me to be his date to a wedding. My boyfriend didn’t want me to go, but I told him, “Look, he has been one of my best friends since high school. I’m not going to tell him no. He’s my friend, you know he’s my friend.” He still didn’t want me to go to the wedding, but I assured him I would come home immediately after. We weren’t living together, but I spent much time at his place.
On the night of the wedding, I was wearing a short dress and sandals (keep in mind that this is in December, but it was a cute, appropriate outfit for an indoor wedding). When my friend dropped me off and I walked up to my apartment. I had this really wonky lock, and usually you could pull it, and jiggle it to open it up. This time, however, it didn’t open, and there I was in my short dress with my bare legs and sandals, unable to get into my apartment. It wasn’t that late, maybe midnight. My boyfriend lived blocks away — within walking distance. I walked all the way to his apartment, and I rang the doorbell, and I said, “It’s me. My lock won’t open again. The damn thing won’t open!” He said, “Too bad.” I rang again and said, “I’m in a dress, in sandals, and it’s snowing out. Let me in!” but, he wouldn’t let me in. I was starting to panic, and I had to beg to be let in. The next morning, it was like nothing had happened. I asked him why he wouldn’t let me in, and he said he was tired.
He only hit me twice during our relationship. I know, the word “only” is not great because it shouldn’t even happen once. The first time was after we had broken up. I went out with someone else, and he called me when I got home. I could tell he was very upset. He begged to speak with me and came over. He started asking questions about whether the guy had kissed me during our date, and was digging for information. In my mind, it wasn’t any of his business -- he broke up with me, and I can kiss whoever I want. Then he slapped me. I looked at him and told him, “Get the fuck out, and I never want to see you again.” He called, and called, and cried, and called, and begged, and cried and showed up with roses. He said, “What was I thinking?” and, “If you take me back, I’ll make it up to you!” Why did I take him back? The guy who I was out with that night called me, and I told him I had gotten back together with my boyfriend.
He was a nice guy, and I didn’t tell him what had happened, but he said, “You know, you’re a nice girl. But I gotta tell you; you’re being really stupid. And it’s not because you’re not going to date me. It’s because you’re putting up with this and you don’t have to.” I made excuses for him. I don’t seem like that kind of person now, but being with someone like that chips away at your self-esteem. And yet, I was with him for another year. The first six months because I wanted to be, and the second 6 months because I was afraid of him. He started complaining about me spending time with my male friends, but then it became my female friends too, and then my family. He didn’t want me to spend time with my parents. “Why do you have to spend so much time with your family? Why do you have to spend so much time with your parents? Aren’t you a grown-up?” Of course, I would keep doing it, because I was not going to step away from my friends and family. That would lead to these punishing hissy fits. I was unhappy. I was not myself, and people saw it.
There was one wonderful woman at work, this wonderful, old, grandma- like lady with white hair who was always sweet to me, who said, “Something’s not right. You’re always so cheerful and happy. What’s wrong?” I told her everything. I told her what was going on, not realizing how bad it was. She was not sweet this time. She looked at me very sternly, and she said, “You need to stop. You need to stop this right now. You need to stop this.” I believe she even used the word abusive.
Oddly enough, the thing that finally made up my mind was when I got my first cat. I didn’t want to be at my boyfriend’s anymore; I wanted to be at home with my kitty cat. And I began to realize if I want to be with the animal more than I wanted to be with the man, that was saying something. He didn’t want to sleep at my apartment because of the cat. When he came over to my place, and we were starting to get intimate, my kitty jumped up on the bed because he was used to sleeping in bed with me. Without even stopping, my boyfriend scooped him up and tossed him off the bed. And for the first time, I kicked him, and pushed him off the bed, and said, “Get Out! Get out! Get the fuck out!” I was screaming, “Don’t you ever touch my cat! Don’t you ever touch him! Get! The Fuck! Out!” And he did. And I thought, “If he could abuse me, but he mustn’t touch my cat, what does that say about me?”
I thought this was it, and I was done. I should have let it be over, but the next day, I told him I needed to talk to him. So, the next day I went over to his place to end it. As soon as I spoke the words, “This is over, I’m done!” he started walking towards me...and I knew. I just knew. I ran for the door to try and get it open, but he got me at the door. He hit me so hard that he knocked me out. It sounded like a “thunk,” almost like the sound that you make when you hit a watermelon. The next thing I knew, my shirt was torn, I was bleeding, and I wasn’t by the door anymore - I don’t know how I got to where I was. I started screaming and screaming and screaming at the top of my lungs, “Help, help, someone call the police, help!” By this time, my boyfriend had gotten himself together, because he saw that I was hurt and bleeding and hysterical, and he was trying to calm me down. He asked to let him take me to the hospital, and I let him drive me to the E.R. I just wanted everything to stop, for it to be over.
When we got there, the nurses did an intake report to see what happened. I told them I fell and hit my head. So, after I was stitched, the doctor asked me what happened because it said that I tripped and fell. The doctor said they had to give me some stitches, and they needed to stabilize my jaw because it was unhinged. I had three stitches on the side of my head. “Who hit you?” the doctor asked. I didn’t say anything. He said, “This is not a falling accident. This is an impact accident. This is what you get when someone hits you. Was it your husband, your boyfriend, your father? Who is it?” I still didn’t say anything. He said, “Do you know how I know this? I know this because every Friday night, they come in here, these beaten women. It’s the same ones over and over again. And each time, it’s a little worse. It’s a black eye. Then it’s a black eye and a broken nose. A broken cheek. Stitches in the head, it’s a concussion, and some of them eventually die. They have police out in the waiting room. I’ll have them come in, I’ll file a report, you’ll file a report, and they’ll arrest him. So, are you going to become one of my Friday night regulars?”
With that, I was able to meet his eyes, and I said, “NO! Never again”.
I left the hospital and went home, where my boyfriend was standing, crying and apologizing. I told him that he was not staying, and he was not coming in, he was leaving. At this point, I was so calm; I was just trying to keep control. I went into my apartment, shut it and locked it. I went into my room, and thought, “I’m safe now.” I felt overwhelming relief because I was never going to see him again, ever...or so I thought. He called and called, trying to apologize. He would go through phases. He would call begging and pleading. He would call in the middle of the night screaming and cursing at me. One night, he was down in the courtyard of my apartment complex, banging on the door and screaming, and the girl upstairs called the police on him. He sent roses to my office one time. I looked at the card, went into the lunchroom, threw the roses in the garbage, and went back to my desk. Two years later, I was in a new relationship with my now-husband. I told my husband about the phone calls, and how I would just hang up. One day the phone rang, and my husband decided to pick it up. He said, “Yep, hello? Nope. Nope. She doesn’t want to talk to you. Go right ahead. It’s a whole lot harder to beat up another man than it is to beat up a woman. Come right on.” and he hung up. I hyperventilated and thought I was going to hear my doorbell ring, and he would be tracking me. But thankfully, I never heard from him again.
What helped me at first, were my friends. Women didn’t talk about assault, or domestic violence very much, but if you did share, somebody would share back if they’d experienced it. It was really helpful to hear another woman say, “Don’t you put up with that shit.” Especially older women. I got a fair bit of counseling, which also really helped. I never spoke to my parents about the rape, and I don’t know if I told them about the abuse. I mean, obviously they saw it. They aren’t stupid, and they probably knew something was going on, and you could see that I had been beaten up. I think that the hardest part was looking back and thinking, “Good Lord, what was I missing in me, that I would take that?” It isn’t my fault. I know it isn’t my fault.
You can’t let it define you; what you did, what you didn’t do, how you fought or didn’t fight, is not who you are. Someone else did you wrong. How it felt, what you did at the moment, and how it felt in the moment is all so confusing for a decent person who doesn’t want to hurt anyone else. It’s really hard to comprehend. Someone else fucked up, and you got the sharp end of it, but it’s still your body and still your life. It’s still your sexuality. It doesn’t belong to them. I don’t know how we make it stop. I don’t think we can make it all stop. Women can’t do this on our own, because women want to be loved and desired and wanted. In addition to wanting to be respected, they want to be desired. That’s why women with brains and guts and education and ambition will go somewhere and have their pubic hairs ripped out by their roots with a bikini wax. Why? Because somebody told women, it makes them sexier. You have to have men join you as part of the effort to stop abuse. All it takes is for good people to do something.
Thank you for listening today. I hope you enjoyed the story. I know they’re a little dark, and they’re hard to hear, but it’s really important that more people speak out about their abuse and what they’ve experienced in order to help other people feel comfortable doing the same thing. The whole purpose is to empower other survivors. We want a world where nobody feels isolated and stuck because of a situation they are or were in. I want everybody to have the comfort and support of a community that empowers and loves and validates them. And I think that by writing these books and sharing these stories, is a really important and effective way to let people break through their silence, and heal from their emotional abuse.
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Welcome back toHealing From Emotional Abuse. Today, I want to address the Cycle of Abuse, and the 6 types of abuse that are most prevalent.
There are three parts to the cycle of abuse. There is the Honeymoon Phase, the Tension Building Phase, and the Explosion Phase. This is often referred to as the power and control wheel.
Abusive Relationships, like every relationship, start off with the calm honeymoon phase. The abuser is charming, and kind. Makes you feel comfortable and loved. Mine would bring snacks to my desk at school and we would watch Glee, because he knew I love that show. And he would send me cute messages and tell me how beautiful, smart and witty I was.
Once he had me smitten, he began to make occasional, seemingly out of character remarks to me. He started to push my boundaries with verbal abuse. Telling me that things I was saying were stupid, or that I was stupid. My opinions were invalid. Or that the major I declared in college was dumb. You name it, he said it.
It made me feel really insecure. I began carefully selecting things to tell him. Things that wouldn’t make me look stupid to him. Things that would avoid any conflict. I felt like I was walking on eggshells, and anything I said to him could be used against me, or used to make me feel bad.
Have you ever experienced a friend, partner or colleague that treated you like this? It might have confused you, because once you were once so close, or they were so nice. And all of a sudden, it started to creep in that they became a little hurtful. And then, very hurtful. They would make little jabs that threw you off or confused you. And then you felt insecure or uneasy sharing things with them? This is the tension building phase of abuse.
Finally, the last phase of the cycle is the Explosion phase. The explosion phase is when the big blowout happens. When the abuser snaps and creates a big act of control. It could be causing a scene, or yelling. It could be a blowout of verbal or emotional abuse. It could be physical or sexual abuse. The recent trend we’ve been seeing is strangulation, over the last couple of years. The explosion phase is usually when friends or family will be called or asked for help, or when the police will be called. Or when the survivor tries to leave.
The problem is, that brings us back to the beginning of the cycle. The honeymoon/reconciliation phase. This is when the abuser comes back and apologizes. Makes promises that they’re not going to keep. Like that they’re never going to hurt them again. Or makes a million excuses for their behavior. “Oh, but honey, I was just drunk, and I was angry.” Or, “I have so much stress at work, and there’s something going on with me.” And sometimes, they’ll bring gifts and chocolate, and are extra affectionate and attentive.
And the cycle continues. Everything is great for a short period of time, and then tension builds again until we hit another explosion. And things don’t get better. They will always continue to get worse and worse, because throughout the tension and explosion phase, the abuser is pushing boundaries. Seeing how far they can push their control over the survivor.
There are 6 major types of abuse.
Emotional abuse / Psychological abuse
Verbal abuse
Financial abuse
Spiritual abuse
Sexual abuse
Physical abuse
Verbal abuse is when someone says mean things to you in order to belittle you and make you feel insecure. It’s a way to break your confidence down, so you’ll submit to what they say about you. It can be cursing, yelling, calling mean or derogatory names. Anything that is said with the intention to hurt someone else.
Emotional abuse and Psychological Abuse is used to break down your self-worth, and push boundaries. For example, the emotional abuse that my abuser said to me was that I was lucky to have him because nobody else could ever love the damaged person that I am. That I had no value and no worth, and I would never aspire to be anything. I would always depend on him to take care of me. He knew that was my biggest fear, because I grew up so independent, and being taught how I need to be an independent person and take care of myself. And he exploited that by trying to make me feel like I would never achieve that.
Financial Abuse is very common, but not often talked about. There are a few scenarios that depict financial abuse. Either the abuser does not allow the survivor to work, so they won’t have any access to money, and won’t have work experience, which impacts someone’s ability to leave their abuser. And the other type is forcing the survivor to work, in order to sustain the household, while the abuser has full control over the finances, and often times stays at home. They usually monitor the bank accounts to make sure that the survivor isn’t spending any money, or lying about where they are. And also, not allowing the survivor any access to the money they’re bringing in, so they cannot leave.
Spiritual abuse, also not commonly talked about, is refusing the survivor the right to their beliefs. It can be the abuser forcing the survivor to believe in the abusers religion of choice, or just not allowing the survivor to practice the faith or religion that they want. It cuts survivors off from their communities, and is also a method of control.
Physical abuse is the most commonly talked about. It’s actually what people usually envision when talking about domestic violence. It’s the pictures of people with black eyes, making the excuse that they’ve walked into a doorknob, or tripped and fell down the stairs. It’s any physical contact that is meant to hurt someone, or control someone, or have them submit to the abuser. Like I mentioned before, choking and strangulation have been very common in the last few years. I personally think it’s because cutting off someones air supply is horrendous, but it’s also complete control over their life. And fingerprints are easier to hide behind hair. Pushing people down stairs, biting, scratching, hitting are all different examples of physical abuse.
And sexual abuse. This can range of making an off-putting sexual comment, or behavior - like touching someones leg, or butt or any part of their body that makes them uncomfortable, to full on rape and sexual assault. Harvey Weinstein was just convicted on this. Two people came forward and said that he had forced himself on them, and that’s sexual abuse. It is any unwanted or unprompted sexual advance where no consent is given.
Abuse doesn’t typically start out physical. If you meet someone, you start to like them, and then they punch you in the head, chances are you’re going to leave, right? What they’ll do is build trust and affection and love. And in the midst of your relationship building, they’ll insert small jabs and boundary pushes to see what they can and can’t get away with. And like climbing a staircase, they’ll start with verbal or psychological abuse. Push boundaries and see how much they can get away with. Then, they will move up to the next step. They may touch on financial or spiritual abuse, and sometimes both. Then, when they have that full mind control over you, they’ll move up to the next step and may push to become physically and sexually abusive. Not every abuser follows the exact same pattern, and not every relationship becomes physically abusive. But it’s not as simple as, they punched me in the face, so I’ll leave. It’s little-by-little steps, building up the abuse as they go, after the survivor is already smitten. Or after the survivor already feels trapped. People would not stay in abusive relationships if there wasn’t some semblance of love. If they didn’t see good in the abuser. Or if there weren’t times of beauty and kindness and love. They wouldn’t stay.
I mean, would you? If you were with somebody that you truly loved, and they started acting really bad towards you, you would wish for the good times back. That doesn’t mean you enjoy the abuse. It just means that you know that they can be better, because they have been. So survivors will hold out for that to come back. Maybe they’ll justify it by saying their narcissist is just stressed at work or this is a phase. Or they’re going through a lot. But at the end of the day, the bad habits and the bad traits and the bad actions don’t go away. The bad behavior is what stays. And it’s the good times that become fewer and farther between.
Have you ever heard the song Love the Way You Lie, by Eminem and Rhianna? I really appreciate that song for how lyrically gifted Eminem is. That song does a phenomenal job of depicting the cycle of abuse. He highlights a few different types of abuse, and the lyrics are cyclical. They take you on a journey around the cycle of abuse a few times. Rhianna depicts a survivor, who is conflicted because she loves her partner so much but doesn’t like the abuse, and Eminem depicts the abuser, and the cycle.
I’ve picked out a few excerpts from the song to break down, but I urge you to listen to the whole song and try and find the different parts of the cycle. I’m not even going to try to rap, I’m just going to read the lyrics. That is so not my forte.
This is the explosion.
Where you going, I'm leaving you
No you ain't, come back
We're running right back, here we go again
Honeymoon / Reconciliation
It's so insane 'cause when it's going good, it's going great
I'm Superman, with the wind at his back, she's Lois Lane
Tension:
But when it's bad, it's awful
I feel so ashamed,
Explosion:
I snapped, who's that dude
I don't even know his name, I laid hands on her
Honeymoon:
I'll never stoop so low again, I guess I don't know my own strength
....
You ever love somebody so much
You can barely breathe, when you're with them, you meet
And neither one of you, even know what hit 'em,
Got that warm fuzzy feeling, yeah them chills, used to get ‘em
Tension Building
Now you're getting fucking sick, of looking at ‘em
You swore you've never hit 'em, never do nothing to hurt 'em,
Now you're in each others face,
Spewing venom, and these words, when you spit ‘em
Explosion
You push, pull each other's hair, scratch, claw, bit 'em,
Throw 'em down, pin 'em, so lost in the moments, when you're in 'em
It's the rage that's the culprit, it controls you both
If you listen to the whole song, it rounds the cycle a few times, like I said. And there are a ton of other songs that reference abuse or the cycle of abuse. Wasted and Blown Away by Carrie Underwood, My Immortal by Evanessence, Better Man by Little Big Town (that’s a really good one) — because it references that want to go back from the survivors perspective, but having to fight yourself to recognize that going back is a mistake.
I could do an entire podcast episode on just music about abuse and sexual assault. If that is something you would want to hear, leave me a comment and I’ll absolutely do that!
In the meantime, I hope this helped you understand more about the cycle of abuse, and the types of abuse that are out there. It’s way more than just hitting someone. Abuse destroys you psychologically and emotionally until you feel completely trapped and isolated. It’s a horrible place to be. But we’ve built a community here that is in place to help support and empower survivors to leave, and feel confident growing into their strongest selves.
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa:
Hey everyone! Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. This is part 2 of my conversation with Mike Sellari. Writer, director, producer and movie expert. With Mike’s insight, we were able to pick apart a bunch of movies with depicted sexual assault and discuss the necessity of those scenes, in relation to the themes of the films. If you haven’t heard part 1 yet, go check it out on Youtube, iHeart Radio, Spotify, Podbean, Stiticher, iTunes, basically any platform that hosts podcasts. In this episode of Healing Through Emotional Abuse, we dive a little deeper into the world of cinema. And just a heads up, some of these depictions of sexual assault may be graphic and potentially triggering. And there will definitely be movie spoilers.
Marissa:
I think that rape and sexual assault and domestic violence have been used as slapstick comedy for a really long time because it was not something that was really questioned. Every time somebody came forward about domestic violence through the late 90s, the police would show up, they would tell the narcissist or abuse to take a walk around the block, and they’d question the victim about what they did to piss off the abuser. That’s how it was handled. It wasn’t handled. That’s the problem.
Mike:
Yeah, and you see that. You see that in the first season of Veronica Mars, and it kind of carries on into the second season of Veronica Mars. It is about a rape, and she goes to the police to report it, and his response is, “You know, I think you should go see the Wizard, and ask him for some guts.” Or something like that. I don’t remember exactly what he tells her to ask for.
Marissa: Because that still happens today, in real life. But also, I don’t know if you’ve seen the Netflix show, Unbelievable.
Mike: Yeah, I love it.
Marissa:
Okay, Awesome! So, Unbelievable is based on true stories. It’s about several people who have been sexually assaulted or raped in various places around the country. And with the first case specifically, she goes to the police right away, she makes her report. They ask her the same question 55 times. And then they find one small detail that she mixed up, because it’s really easy for us to forget the exact order of things - who she called first was the thing she mixed up- and then they get her on that, convince her what happened didn’t happen, made her believe that the police were never going to help her. So she just admits defeat, says it was a lie, even though it wasn’t. And then she get ostracized for it.
That’s the kind of stuff I’m hoping becomes more common in film and tv - just like you were saying before. We have to see the uncomfortable stuff to really feel it and understand it, and take the severity of it to heart. If we don’t see it, if they were doing it off screen, or they do just soundbytes or it’s just a black screen or whatever, it takes the power and the discomfort away from us. And it makes it easy to excuse.
So even in the show 13 Reasons Why, which I know you’ve seen. When that show was released, the National Suicide Hotline said that their phone calls blew up 40x. So, 40x the normal number of calls were made to the hotline. Which is a phenomenal, but also awful, because you don’t know if those same people were already suicidal or if it was something they felt glorified suicide. The statistics were never conclusive. One thing I did really appreciate - I watched a little bit of the second season and it really felt like it was trying to bank too much on the #MeToo Movement, which pissed me off a lot - but I really appreciated the cinematography of the rape scene because it’s so, you just, it just. Oh god. The closeup of her face, and you just see her.. the life leave her eyes.
Mike:
Yeah
Marissa:
The humanity just falls out of her. And it lingers like 10 seconds too long. And they did that on purpose so that you could truly see the dehumanization of a person when they’re being raped.
Mike:
I’m going to move away from movies for just a second to mention a book that I just recently finished and I recommend to you and your listeners. It’s covering a lot of topics here. And what it’s called is Talking To Strangers. It’s a Malcom Gladwell book. The thesis of the book is that we as a society do not know how to talk to strangers. We do something called “defaulting to truth,” meaning that as soon as somebody says something to us, even if we haven’t met them before, our inclination is to believe that person. And the reason we do that is because if we don’t, society can’t function. That’s how society functions is because of default to truth. If everybody is super suspicious of every single person, we can’t trust anybody, society can’t function. The whole premise of the book is, we don’t know how to talk to each other. We don’t know how to make decisions regarding each other. We really don’t know how to read people. And because of that, problems arise. You can’t tell comfortability, or if you are, you’re not sure about it.
You look at people who have made these apologies and stuff like that in real life. And you can find the difference between the people we like and the people we don’t like. Dan Harmon comes to mind, where Megan Ganz accused him of sexual harassment. It’s what I mentioned before. He was always asking her out. He was her boss, she was afraid to do certain things. There was this sexual harassment thing, and she called him out on it and it became a whole situation. I highly recommend everyone to listen to his apology. It’s a masterclass of apologizing, how he did it on his podcast, talking about the situation. That’s why he’s still doing Rick and Morty and still able to do stuff. He has his show Harmontown.
Alright, we’re talking about abuse and all that stuff, we have to hit the main ones. There are two movies that we haven’t talked about that we’ve gotta talk about. First is, The Last Tango in Paris. Marlon Brando, there’s that infamous scene where he rapes her with butter. She talks about how that has affected her as a person and as an actress. Last Tango in Paris was a move, though, that was highly revered. People still talk about how much that movie has influenced them. Now, this girl was traumatized by this. She was 19 years old, they didn’t have it in the script. She showed up on the day, and they said, in this scene, he’s going to rape you and use butter as lubricant. It’s obviously not really happening but she was crying. The tears you see in the movie are her real tears. And Bertolucci and Brando defended themselves throughout the years, and it became contentious. I think that’s why the Last Tango in Paris doesn’t come up in the conversation of great cinema anymore, which is fine. There are movies that we revere at a time and then we can say, “We’re done with that.” And we can move on.
It can still exist and we can watch it for posterity. But we don’t always have to revere something because it was revered in the past. And I think we’re learning that more and more. And I think that’s something that, it took a while for people to treat women the right way, or at least closer to the right way. Movies we have to talk about. Last Tango in Paris, it’s a brutal thing, and we didn’t see it as brutal in the time.
On the flip side, there’s a movie that we do see as brutal and it was seen as brutal at the time. And that’s The Last House On The Left, and that’s Wes Craven’s first movie. I just watched it for the first time a couple months ago. I’d been putting it off for a while. I knew what it was about. They remade it recently, not as aggressive. And I mean, it’s a staple in horror cinema. When you watch it, you can see the moments of Wes Craven’s talent. I mean, you can see his talent in there.
The premise of the movie is, these two girls are going to a concert in the city. They meet this guy, he is like, “Hey, come hang out.” and stuff like that. Him and his family are actually escaped convicts. And they torture them, they keep them hostage. They rape one of the girls. It’s very brutal. And this one girl dies just walking into water, just defeated. It feels very much like an Ophelia moment, and she’s dead. And it’s just brutal watching it. And to a point, you can say it’s gratuitous. And early Wes Craven movies did that. And there are movies that put rape in their movies that I don’t think they need to. Recent one that comes to mind is Don’t Breathe. But Last House On The Left I think needs it in there, because it goes back to that brutality thing. It shows that these are the most debased people ever.
And theres a reason people watch that. There’s a reason wired in us that is kind of okay with violence. And maybe that’s because society told us it’s okay with violence. PG-13 movies with blood are okay, but not a little sex.
There’s a great movie documentary called This Film Is Not Yet Rated, which is about the MPAA, the Motion Picture Association of America. The people who rate movies. And they talk about, if there are two similar things in two different movies, one gets rated PG-13, one gets R. And a lot of times it has to do with sexual orientation. Gay stuff ends up being R, Hetero stuff ends up being PG-13. Again, a lot of this changes. There is violence to a certain extent.
Marissa:
A lot of the things you say are based on perspective. But also, based from your experience. And that’s totally okay. I actually just want to shift gears just a tad, and go to pedophilia. For some reason, while you were talking, what popped into my head was American Beauty. And I’m not a Kevin Spacey fan anymore. I’m actually quite devastated at the destruction he caused, because I was a big Kevin Spacey fan, and then found out he’s a pedophile in real life. And Anthony Rapp is one of my favorite Broadway actors. So, I have a real issue.
Mike:
You are the big Broadway girl.
Marissa:
BIG Broadway girl. So, for him to have hurt somebody who I have never met, and have so much love for… and hurt anyone in general. To rape somebody and assault somebody in general…
Mike: But specifically Anthony Rapp
Marissa:
Specifically Anthony Rapp. it makes him such a horrible human being. But American Beauty, growing up was one of my favorite movies. I just thought it was so creative. And looking back I’m like, No no, this is an adult male, 40-something or 50-something, having an over sexualized infatuation with a 15 year old. Now, in some states, like Mississippi, that’s actually okay, because the age of consent is 14. But in most states, I think pretty much every state but Mississippi, that’s SO not okay. And that is SO wrong. So I just want to focus on that for a minute, and see if you can think of any other movies or examples of movies that have that kind of theme, and okay and almost glorify pedophilia.
Mike: Well, I will in a sense, I mean, I’ll get you there in a second. I don’t know if there’s a lot of stuff that glorifies it. But, we looked at things in different ways. First off, you’ve gotta remember where we come from. We were okay with Elvis Presley marrying, how old was she? Like 13 or 14 years old? And I mean, you see it for forever.
Look at The Professional. Natalie Portman and John Reno are fantastic in it. And it’s about the relationship between a grown man and a young girl. Now, he sees it more as a Father-Daughter relationship, and she obviously tries to flip it around. And you can kind of look at that relationship and think, how is that not related to Besson’s own relationship with Maïwenn Besco? She was this french model, but she was really young when she was dating Luc Besson. And I know people have had conversations about why Drake is friends with Millie Bobby Brown. That seems weird just because they’re both actors or famous or something.
And we again, default to truth, and want to hope that people are the best that they are, and we’re all just trying to pick each other up, and meet cool people. And I mean, look, I work in the entertainment industry. I’m a talent manager. I have clients and I’ve worked with clients who are kids; I’ve worked with clients who are older. And I would call some of them friends. Is it weird that I have an 18 year old friend? It’s someone I work with. So, it becomes complicated in this kind of industry because I work with them, but at the same time, they are kids. And then it’s like, what are we saying “work” is? And it becomes complicated.
I think it’s just ultimately looking at it at a case-by-case basis. If you want to look at movies, Manhattan was always one that always put me a little off. The premise of the movie is Woody Allen is dating this really young girl.
Marissa:
Wasn’t Woody Allen sleeping with his step daughter? Not his step daughter, his adopted daughter, or his foster daughter? No, his adopted daughter.
Mike:
Yes. And it’s also not glorified. It’s not meant to be a good thing. People call him out on it. But it seems like a funny movie. People praise this movie, and stuff like that. The movie charms us. In the world of the movie, we’re there. And I haven’t seen Manhattan in a very long time. I believe it’s not used… they don’t say this is a good thing, I think people really do call him out on it. I’m trying to think of other movies. There’s definitely tons of movies where young girls have been sexualized.
But you’re talking about pedophilia. I mean, movies that really do explore it in interesting ways. I mean there’s Little Children, which is a fantastic movie. There’s Mysterious Skin, which is about how two people have coped with being sexually abused as children by their baseball coach. There’s also Mystic River, plays on dealing with a pedophile, and how does it affect you. Here’s the thing, a lot of the examples I’m coming up with don’t say this is a good thing. And to an extent, American Beauty doesn’t say it’s a good thing.
Marissa:
I just think they do a really beautiful job of creating a positive character arch for Kevin Spacey’s character. He goes from being this miserable, horrible dad, totally removed, piece of crap human being, to then he just sees this girl in a skimpy outfit as a cheerleader, at 15 or 16 years old, and his whole world changes. He starts being happier, and sticking up for himself. He quits his job and starts working out.
Mike: Well, okay. So this is something about American Beauty, which again, I think further along will change. I mean, 90s and you probably remember this, were such a different time with everything. And so good. And also, it’s a pre-9/11 movie. And it’s weird when you see pre-9/11 movies and you see peoples problems. It’s like, our problem was, we were too bored with our lives. Look at Fight Club. Look at American Beauty. I mean, Revolutionary Road, which was kind of a sequel to American Beauty in a spiritual way in my mind, because they were both directed by Sam Mendez and they both are explaining the boringness of suburbia and how it kills us. Little Children does the same thing. And I don’t think that they’re saying that he’s… I don’t even think they’re saying in American Beauty that Lester Burnum was a bad dad. He is a person that is now bored with his station in life. He’s in the suburbs, he did everything he was supposed to. And then, yes, he gets an injection of, “Maybe I need to start living my life.” And has this mid-life crisis thing, where he starts smoking weed, and working out, and doing all this stuff. And working at Burger King, and stuff like that. And he knows his wife is having an affair. And that’s part of the thing that pushes him. And what’s one of the most mid-life crises things, you date a younger woman.
And I know… Marissa just made the biggest grimace face… Everyone, just so you know. But that was something seen as stereotypical. Stereotypical thing in the 90s, when some guy would go through a mid-life crisis, they would buy a motorcycle or a hot-rod or corvette. They would go on some vacation. They would maybe have an affair with a younger woman. It’s seen in so many movies. It’s really cliche, and that’s what American Beauty kind of plays on. And then what is to make that even worse? And that’s where he stops.
When he has that moment to have sex, and then right before he dies, he has that content moment where he’s looking at that photo of his family, and he realizes, “You know, I had it all along.” Again, I haven’t seen it in a while.
And this is where you and me differ. I can separate art from the person. It’s difficult sometimes because you say, well this came from this persons mind. Yet, this mind is also that. And what I’ve noticed from people is, people are complicated. And people have different layers to themselves. It’s an onion, it really isn’t just one thing. Kevin Spacey can be a good actor and can also be the biggest piece of shit ever. And I can still say he’s a good actor. Woody Allen has written some of the best screenplays of all time. And has been a shitty person. Louis C.K. is gross. But, Hilarious is a great comedy special.
Marissa:
I’m going to definitely comment on the Louis C.K. thing. Because I went and saw him at Madison Square Garden before the accusations came out, and I remember him making a joke about masturbating in front of his assistants or employees. And it was so gross that it was funny because of the way he said it, and the way he worded it.
Mike:
Exactly. It’s meant as a matter of fact thing to play on our ideas of society, and hold a mirror to it in a weird way. Obviously, he was commenting on real things, but when you’re not looking at it in a context, it plays differently.
Marissa:
But that to me rang differently because he knew he was doing something wrong, and disgusting, and made a big joke about it. So not only was he doing the bad thing, but then he was mortifying the people he was actually doing bad things to, knowing they couldn’t hurt him. I would say he, I remember he waited a year after the accusation came out to come out and start doing comedy again, and apologize. I’m still kind of conflicted about it. I do think that his comedy is good, but like you said, I just have a difficult time differentiating the art from the person.
Mike: I know. And there are some episodes of Louis that are just out of this world fantastic.
Marissa:
Thank you so much for doing this with me Mike. Oh my gosh, I’m happy we got to have this chat and you are so knowledgeable and awesome to talk to. And you’re very funny. I really hope we get to do this again soon. I love the idea of us watching a movie and then discussing it. I definitely have al list now of movies I have to watch.
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
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Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Hey Everyone! Thank you so much for joining us this week on Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today I’m so grateful and excited to introduce my friend Mike Sellari to talk about sexual assault and domestic violence and how it’s portrayed in movies and tv. Mike has an amazing background with film. Right now, he lives in LA as a talent agent, but I do have to say that back in 2006, I starred in his first student film that he wrote, produced and directed, called Man Seeking Woman. So we go back a long. time. He’s an awesome person with a great personality and I’m so excited to have him here. So, let’s get started.
So, lets’s talk about some movies. You’re a huge movie buff, you love talking about movies and I love looking at your posts on Facebook. Every single time you watch a movie, you kind of critique it and every season, I love looking at your lists of best movies of the year. So, I’d love your perspective on movies with domestic violence and sexual assault themes, and what you think about them.
Mike:
Okay, I mean, right at the top, I feel like I’m already going to be treading into dangerous waters with whatever I talk about. Mainly because it’s a complicated issue. There’s a lot of different ways we can discuss this. There’s a lot of different points of view, and I think everyone thinks different.
So, I guess it’s hard to talk about, because you’re saying domestic violence, abuse and stuff like that. And a lot of that also goes back into misogyny and a lot of that goes back into the distribution of power between men and women. Especially from pre-60s, because there was that whole “housewife” ideal of the 50s and stuff. And you can see that with older movies with women, “Being in their place.” And men as the aggressor. Even in the 30s there were still powerful women. You look at stuff like the Philadelphia Story or His Girl Friday, or Lady Eve. You’ll see strong women characters besting the man. But you also see people looking at women in a way that was more, “Of the time.” And I guess right at the top, we really can’t look at things from the past with 2020 eyes. We’re going to look back at a lot of stuff, because probably every single one of these movies has happened in the past. And some just come from different generations. And I’m going to talk about movies that I also love, and will watch still. It’s kind of like you have to just be able to say, look, that was a different time. 50 years down the road, we’re going to look at the stuff we’re doing on a normal basis and our kids are going to be like, “What? What are you doing? How could you just let that happen?” And we’re going to say it was just a different time, and they’re going to tell us that’s a bullshit answer. And we’re going to say, look, I know, we just didn’t realize it.
I mean, if you look 5 years ago, the stuff that we were laughing at in comedies that now we’re looking at and we’re pulling on our collars and going yikes because it’s hard to watch.
Marissa:
Superbad is a great example of that, actually.
Mike:
And honestly, a fantastic movie. And something that we’re going to get into is the idea of what is art, and how far can we push our art? And what’s subversive vs. expletive vs. gratuitous. And then, also, if we’re going to show reality, shouldn’t we have to show the dark sides of reality? Because if we hide it, then what are we saying about our history, and stuff like that? For instance, talking about the civil war and the stuff that did or didn’t happen. Talking about our history and movies about slavery. Haven’t we said all we’ve needed to say, or are we hiding stuff from our past that we don’t want to talk about? But we’ve got to keep it.
Something to just start off the top, and this is definitely an abusive thing. Let’s talk about Michael Jackson for a second. Obviously, we’ve known about his quirks and his weird things, and I truly believe he had a mental illness - and I believe a lot of this stems from mental illness. There’s a whole thing we can talk about with Michael Jackson and his family. And also just what were people doing in just letting their kids be around him? And also stuff we just decided to turn a blind eye to because of certain things. And it keeps going, then Leaving Neverland comes out and that was an intense documentary. And after that came out, James L. Brooks announced that they were puling an episode from the Simpsons from all internet, rerun, syndication, and now it’s on Disney+ but that episode is not on Disney+. And it’s not even that Michael is in it. You’re not seeing his imagery. It has nothing to do with off-color thing. The premise of the episode is Homer goes to a mental institution and meets an inpatient who calls himself Michael Jackson. He’s clearly not Michael Jackson, but he’s voiced by Michael Jackson. It’s weird that we pull that form our history, because we have to look back and see that we see that. However, James L. Brooks says, “This is my stuff. I get to make the decision over what I want out there. And I don’t want it to seem like Michael Jackson is getting more residuals, or his estate getting money from this.” So, when we start taking things out of our history and out of our films, I worry that we have the ability to repeat ourselves in dangerous ways. It’s important to see that stuff. It’s important to acknowledge that we were off base and learned from it. We can watch those movies in a different way. We can see that they were made in those times.
For instance, let’s go into now talking about this. There was a time when rape was a joke. It was kind of funny. It was played off as not a big deal. It was played off in comedies in particular as something that could just happen. Let’s talk about specifics here. There’s a movie if you think back into the early 2000s, there’s a movie I really like that a lot of people don’t called 40 Days and 40 Nights. It starts Josh Hartnett and Shannyn Sossamon, who I just love. And the premise of the movie is, this guy is experiencing a breakup. He’s experiencing this obsession with sex and stuff. So he decides to not masturbate or have sex or do anything sexual for Lent. For 40 Days and 40 Nights. And everyone says he can’t do it. It’s impossible. And he starts losing his mind… it’s a comedy. Meanwhile, his friends are all betting on the day that he’s going to “bust”. And people try to take advantage of that. At the end of the movie, his ex girlfriend bets a lot of money on the final day, and then rapes him while he’s asleep. It’s seen as just a plot point. And then the other girl, the girl who likes him, is like, “I can’t believe you had sex with her.” It’s not, she did it against his will. He was pinned down. He didn’t want it. But that doesn’t matter in the context of that story. But if we look at it there, it’s really weird that she just rapes him and we’re not going to talk about that? And the same thing happens in Get Him to the Greek. Jonah Hill is raped by Carla Gallo. You mentioned Superbad, with the period blood girl. That’s like the reversal of that scene in a way.
So there’s this playfulness. There’s this moment in Revenge of the Nerds where Louis puts on this Darth Vader costume that the jock was wearing. And the hot girl, thinking it’s the jock has sex with him. And he pulls off the mask and she’s like, “You’re that nerd!” But she’s like, that was wonderful. And she forgets it. Like he’s “sexed her” into it’s okay.
If we at that and we look back into the 80s the 70s, moments in the 60s, and even in the 90s and 2000s, and late 2010s. We see these moments. It was before being really aware of what we were doing.
There’s a philosophy I have and that’s: What we put on TV really feeds into society. And then society feeds it back. It’s a cycle. You see movies and I can’t think of any specifics, but the guy pursues the girl. She says no. And the idea is, it’s romantic to keep going and push, push, push. Keep doing that. You see it in tons of high school movies. You see it in movies like American Pie. You see it in to an extent, When Harry Met Sally. That teaches us at a young age that “A No just means you have to keep going, and push past the no. And one day, she’ll give you a shot.” And so that feeds back into it. And that becomes problematic.
However, we’ve also romanticized a certain thing. There’s a term from How I Met Your Mother which I love and use in my own daily life. It’s called Dobbler-Dahmer effect. It means an act could be construed as romantic or psychotic based on how the person feels about the other person. It’s not an easy explainable situation that we’re talking about here. And because of that, we get these movies that show us grey areas. I mean, 16 Candles, there’s definitely that weird moment where the guy is like, “Here, just have my girlfriend.” That’s another thing of older movies, is women being treated as objects. And stuff like that.
Obviously, throughout all the history of cinema, and television, we’ve seen people who combat that. We’ve seen Lucille Ball fight back, and Mary Tyler Moore be these stronger women on TV. You see and take over what we have. But you also see the Honeymooners where Ralph is always threatening to beat his wife. “One of these days, Alice. One of these days.” And even though she’s the power-play in that relationship, there’s still that. I mean, people grew up with that. But at the same time, comedy is what we’re doing to comment on society in a way. And like it or not, the bad parts are in society.
Let’s talk about stuff kids watch. Animal House, a movie that I love. My dad showed that to me. I love Animal House. And there’s that scene where John Belushi is on the ladder looking at the sorority girls. And they’re just all taking off their tops and having a pillow fight. Everyone remembers that scene. And there’s the moment that, that girl walks into a different room, and he hops with the ladder. Okay, it’s hysterical because it’s Belushi hopping on a ladder to see what this girl is doing. Let alone that he’s peeping on her. Even the idea of a Peeping Tom was charming in a way, in these older days.
In Back To The Future, I mean, they call him a perv, but George McFly is spying on his soon-to-be future wife getting changed with binoculars from a tree. And he falls from the tree and that’s how he supposedly meets his wife.
We see certain things as, “Oh, that rascal,” sort of thing. And Belushi is the most rascally of rascals. We see him do the eyebrow thing. We see his face. He’s got this baby face. We’re inclined to laugh. At the end Animal House, there’s that moment where the girls clothes get ripped off by happenstance, and the chaos of the whole thing, and John Belushi, dressed as a pirate, swings down and picks her up and puts her in a car. And she’s screaming and her legs are kicking, and then the last moment we see, he drives off with her. Then later, it cuts and he has her arm around her. She’s sitting in the car, she’s happy, and later, you realize she becomes Senator and Mrs. Bluto Blutarsky. He stole her and she became his wife and everything worked out.
And we know that’s not real life. That’s not how life works. And we know to an extent that Animal House isn’t real life. We know that Revenge of the Nerds isn’t really how college goes. We look at Porky’s and we say that’s not how real life is. I mean, Porky’s, is a really great example. That’s a movie that’s played for laughs all the way through. Weird. And also, talking about going back to a different time. Here’s the Rotten Tomatoes critic consensus for Porky’s:
“Gleeful in its misogyny and celebratory of bad behavior, Porky's is an intermittently funny farce that will leave audiences feeling in need of a shower.”
And that’s weird. That’s just weird. And I mean, the most famous scene of Porky’s is the shower scene. It’s the scene where a group of girls, completely naked, and to that extent, we look back in the past, it seems very gratuitous and those TNA movies were just meant as softcore porn to show kids. It’s why Porky’s isn’t meant to be taken seriously. Although, it’s problematic. There’re these guys and they’re peeping on girls. What does that teach other guys?
There’s a hole in the shower and they’re looking. The girl gets in the way and they yell to move. And the girls laugh. Like it’s charming that these guys are spying on us. We laugh at that.
There’s also in Scary Movie, people were just beating up women and it’s played for laughs. It’s kind of like when you see a Naked Gun movie and Leslie Neilson punches an old woman or something. Or even in an Austin Powers movie, where he’s very hyper-world sexual. We laugh. is it funny to punch an old woman? You think about it, and it’s weird but the answer is.. in the right context. He knocks the girl to the ground and jumps like a wrestler on his elbow off-screen and you hear a noise. It’s these things that are played for funny. And it actually wouldn’t be funny if it was a guy. The reason it’s funny is because it’s taken to such an extreme. It’s not even that, that’s a plot point of the movie. It’s meant as almost slapstick comedy. It’s mean as a hyper-realized version of Marx Brothers. Or Stooges or something like that.
If you want to move away from the playfulness and talk about it as as serious subject, we can do that. Rape and abuse is used as a weapon. Let’s talk about the ones that use it better. The ones that use it traumatically.
There’s things that are also books that became movies. Let’s talk about The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo. The whole premise of The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, or I guess I shouldn’t say premise, I should say themes, is about the violation of women and the violence against women. You have this guy investigating this family and the death of this girl, and who killed this person. At the same time, he’s teamed up with this woman whose life has been shaped by abuse. She is a lesbian. She’s being raped by her parole officer who she is forced to give blowjobs to in order to not land in prison, because he controls her and it’s this power dynamic. You watch these scenes and they’re visceral. There’s a scene in his office and you see his hand just around her head. You’re not seeing anything really, it’s very close up, but it’s hard to watch. And you say to yourself, do we need to see that? Can it be implied? And the problem with implying it is, this is what happened in the older movies. You’d see stuff happen off screen. You would hear people say things. And it becomes not that bad if we’re just saying words. When we start seeing stuff, it then become more visceral. And something about a movie, there’s something about art even. It’s supposed to invoke a feeling. And there’s a reason why we still talk about these movies today. It’s not because we think, “Awe, can you believe they did that?” No. There’s something artistic here. There’s something that’s trying to be said.
Also, rape is used to show savagery. There’s that mentality that we put that on the savagery. One of the most universal movies that people have seen that showcased rape in a savage way was Deliverance. Do you know Deliverance?
Marissa:
Again, I know of it, but I haven’t watched it. I’m not as cultured as you are.
Mike: I wouldn’t call myself cultured. I just call myself someone who watches a lot of movies.
Deliverance is a John Boorman movie that is honestly, it’s good. This is an Oscar-caliber movie. The movie has Ned Beatty, of the Beatty’s, Sean Connery, John Voight. It’s basically these four friends that decide they’re going to go down a river canoeing. They’re going to live in the wilderness, and Sean Connery is this really man’s-man who knows the wilderness. One of the guys is more of a white-collar guy. And there’s these locals that are played up as these rednecks, and they are of their own area. Almost like their own law and stuff. They’re in two different canoes, and they get separated. And one of the canoes crashes and the two guys happen upon these two rednecks who basically beat them, tie them to a tree, force one of the guys to strip naked, squeal like a pig, and then they rape him. They kill these locals and now all the other locals are after them. And it becomes this fight for survival. By the end of the movie, you see what happens, and you’re like, this is this ordeal these people have gone through. And it is an ordeal. It’s crazy. How almost primal it becomes. And I think that’s part of what Deliverance becomes. It’s showing that primal-ness. Some people say, did we need to have that rape scene there? Couldn’t it just be violent? And I don’t know the answer to that honestly.
Marissa:
Thank you so much Mike, I always love talking to you about this stuff because you’re so insightful and so well versed in the world of movies and cinema and all that. So, I just wanted to thank you for being here and talking with us. And we will talk again next week about more of the history of how sexual assault has impacted cinema and movies. And truthfully our culture. I look forward to talking to you again next week, Mike. We’ll see you soon!
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entires lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa:
Today we’re joined with Dr. Leonie Madison. She’s an organizational and talent development practitioner, Author of the books The Thread: The perfect Steps for a God Ordained Purpose, and Beside Still Waters: 21 Days to Developmental, as well as the creator of Threads: 6-Step System to Help Survivors Free Themselves from Past Trauma and Live An Abundant Life. She earned a doctorate in organizational leaders from Argosy University, A Masters in Business Administration from Georgian Court University, and A Christian Life Coach Certificate from Light University. She’s a recipient of 2018 8th Annual Pacific Coast Business Times 40 Under 40 Award - Recognizing the 40 best and brightest transformational leaders on the central coast under the age of 40. Thank you so much for joining us today. I’m so excited to chat with you.
Dr. Leonie Mattison:
I am so excited about our conversation today as well. Thanks for having me.
Marissa:
Of course! So lets get started. Would you mind telling me a little about your story and what brought you to where you are today?
Dr. Mattison:
Sure! Thank you for asking! So, My name is Dr Leonie H. Madison. I like to consider myself an impact storyteller. I’m a trauma survivor, and I was chosen to be able to do this work of pioneering what we’re calling The Thread. It’s a project, it’s a book, it’s a devotional, it’s a 6-step system; all in the spirit of helping survivors to achieve intentional transformation. Helping survivors to rise from the trauma that they’ve experienced and to do some work. Take the steps forward to really force your life forward.
I am a single mom. I have three beautiful daughters and a dog. And they are all the highlights of my life, and I love them dearly. I love my job. It’s part of my calling; I am an organizational and development practitioner, where I get to really help organizations to shift strategy, improve performance and grow revenue. I always say that’s how I use my superpower in the marketplace.
And beyond all of those things, I am just one grateful girl speaking to another survivor, saying, “Hey, I survived.” Also speaking to your listeners saying, “I survived. And after survival, I had to do some work to survive. To thrive beyond the trauma.” So that’s a little bit about who I am and why I got here.
I have a background about my experience being a victim of abuse. I’m not sure if you hear my accent, but I was born on the beautiful island of Jamaica. The west indies. I suffered quite a number of years of abuse as a child. Sexual abuse, spiritual abuse, emotional abuse, and physical abuse. I immigrated to the US when I was about 15 years old. I am also the product of parents who, my father abandoned us. My mom had to leave the island to get work and so we grew up being bounced around from one city to the next in Jamaica. And that’s where a lot of the abuse started. And then when I came to the US, it didn’t stop. I thought it would, but it didn’t. I unfortunately suffered abuse in the faith-based community. I was abuse by a priest minister, sexually and spiritually. And so I have that traumatic background, and I didn’t allow the background to keep my back on the ground. I listened to quite a number of your podcasts and it was really using the power of my voice and my words to elevate myself from out of those situations. It’s one thing to get up, but it’s another to create a new mindset and to adapt new behaviors to truly live this abundant life that we were created to live. So, that’s in a nutshell who you’re speaking with today.
Marissa:
You gave a lot of really good information, so thank you for sharing. So, your book is called Thread: A 6-step System to Help Survivors Free Themselves From Their Past Trauma. If you wouldn’t mind maybe giving us a little taste of the six steps, or what you learned while writing the book.
Dr. Leonie:
I love that question. So, the 6-step system was developed as a result of my experience while I was on my healing journey. And I remember particularly, in addition to the abuses that I’ve gone through, endured, suffered, whatever word you want to use there, I am also a survivor of Delspalsy and a stroke. I had finally made the decision, it was almost like my awakening journey, I finally made the decision after hitting rock bottom that I was ready for change.
There was a dissonance between the girl I was living or the woman I was living, versus the woman that I deeply down in my soul thought I should become. And so I started questioning a lot of theories, philosophies, and just life on a whole. And my big question was to God. I wanted to know why I had gone through what I was going through (Why am I going through what I’m going through). I wanted to know why he abandoned me. I wanted to know why God chose this path for me. I had a lot of questions and I just felt like, books were great, and I would read and gain new knowledge, but I felt like I wanted to challenge God to give me the answers to the questions I was asking.
And so, I’m on this journey, and I felt so many times while I was on this journey, there were times where my back was literally on the ground. And somebody had to come pull me up, because I just couldn’t get up on my own. While on this journey I was bitter. I was angry. I was lost. I had no courage or energy to live at one point. And I remember distinctly. I was on, what I call, one of my excursions. And I remember I was sad, and I was crying. The sun was hot. And I had a radio, and I turned the radio on. When I turned the radio on, there was a minister on there, and I distinctly remember him talking and he said, “The prodigal son come home.” And I turned it off because I didn’t want to hear anything religious.
Then I went inside the living room and I remember turning the television on. And on came this woman. Her name is Juanita Bynum. She’s a female minister. And she started the whole, “Prodigal son come home.” again, thing. And i knew exactly the story in the bible. And at that point she got my attention. And I listened. And at the time, you have to understand, I had just gone through a physical abuse by a partner with someone I was dating. They had abused me physically, kicked me, I fell on the ground, knocked my head. There was an iron and the ground, and I burned a part of my leg. So, I was in a very bad situation, and I was self-blaming as well. So when she said that, I knew I needed help, but I didn’t trust anyone around me to help me. And I definitely didn’t trust God because I was blaming him. And so when she started speaking and she said, “There’s a woman watching and the Lord said to tell you, if you turn to Him, He will turn your life around.” And I turned the television off and said, “I don’t believe that.” I just don’t believe it. And I remember I just started crying and screaming and I got to the point where my mind felt sick and tormented. I took all of this glassware and I just smashed the house. I couldn’t hit him because he wasn’t there. And I took the television off of the wall and I smashed it. I was just so angry, I felt so alone. I screamed. I cried to the point that my neighbors called the cops because they thought something was wrong. Like I was being abuse. And when they came, they couldn’t believe how I had trashed the home.
And it was at that point I realized that I really needed help. And it was at that point that I started sharing my story. I actually got up and went and got help from a therapist. And I started sharing my story. I didn’t know, I had forgotten some of what I had been through. At this time, I was in my 20s, and I had forgotten some of what I’d been through, but she was asking the right questions, that triggered the memory. And i started connecting the dots of what happened to me in my past as a little girl, and being molested. From being inappropriately touched. From being raped when I was sick in bed. I started connecting the dots and I realized that these were patterns in my life. These were things that were happening to me every 5-10 years. I would go through a huge traumatic injury. And so i started documenting everything that I could remember. And the first thing I remember doing was, when the therapist asked me what is it that I want. “What do you want your life to look like?” I didn’t know what I wanted, because I was never given that option before. But I remember I went home and started thinking and dreaming of the best life ever.
So part of my system, the first step is to Think of the outcome you want. Think of that outcome. That’s the T. And the H is to Harvest the lessons you’ve learned and heal your heart. And what I know for me, the lessons that I’ve learned on my journey, one of the biggest ones was I was a big people -pleaser. In my book I refer to myself as, I was a “giving harlot.” I would give, give, give because that’s what I thought God wanted me to do. I give up myself, I’d give up my time, I’d give up my resources. I would give without being conscious of what I was doing. And I was doing that because I wanted, I needed, I so needed for love. I was so needy for affirmation and acceptance. Step 3, R for release. Release fear and break the painful pattern. And there are questions that are associated with each of these steps. And step 4 is Enlist. Enlist allies to become the person you lost inside. And what I love about E step. This is where I do what you’re doing. I empower women to speak up. To share your story. To release and get it out. Talk about what you’ve been through without changing or blaming. Share your story. Release it from out of you. So that’s the E. So, step 5 is A for Adopt. Adopt new mindsets and create new healthy patterns.
I see help as an equivalent to medicine. So if you’re taking medicine, you have to allow it to work. You have to give it time to take effect. And while it’s working, something is breaking apart or falling apart, and it’s okay. And this one of the most difficult steps because it forces us to step away from those behaviors. Or to step away from the things that we’ve been told. I remember listening to your podcast and you were talking about how victims are often times blamed. They blame us while saying you were wearing. Or it’s something you were doing. Maybe you said something to trigger a reaction from the person. So this is the step where we’re saying, you’re gonna demolish those accusations. You’re going to let go off of them because they’re untrue, and they do not power the better and most highest version of who you’re created to be. And the last step, step 6, the D. That is Design your joyful life. And it’s almost like I’m saying to women Dream Again. You get to dream of a new you, and design your joyful life with intention. Design that life that you really want. Design the life that will allow you to fulfill your mission and take the step. Take action. Be bold enough so say, I deserve to free myself of trauma. Those memories. Design that life that says, I will rise and go for the win, and be okay with that without feeling guilty. Without having to justify anything to anyone. To taking charge, taking your power back, and to really feel passionately about women taking your power back out of the hands of trauma. Reclaim your life and live it. And living with intention.
Marissa:
You are so inspirational, and you can just hear the passion in your voice. I loved listening to you, I didn’t want you to stop talking.
Dr. Mattison:
Thank you.
Marissa:
Thank you for doing the amazing work you’re doing. I think THREAD, those 6-steps are perfect. It’s like rewriting your story. It’s speaking it. It’s what I say. You have to Break Your Silence. You have to speak your truth. Because if you stay silent and don’t speak your truth, you can’t heal. You’re still not accepting it. And you’re still letting it weigh you down. And i think it’s so important that survivors always speak about it and break their silence because that’s the only true way to heal.
Dr. Mattison:
Absolutely. I couldn’t agree with you more. Well said. I have found healing writing a book. I have found healing just talking to you and sharing my story. The emotions I feel is one of joy and liberation. And that’s why I wrote the book. I wrote the book to create an avenue for women just like, just like you. Designed by abuse, and are desperately wanting to work through the past, so they can live the life that God envisioned.
This book is really a reminder to survivors that you’re not alone. You’re not alone on your healing journey. And I want them to know that God can heal them, to control their stories. To take control of your story. To rewrite it and to rewrite it with their own voice. To rewrite it out of gratitude because they survived. We’re survivors.
I was listening to one of your podcasts where you were talking about, again, the whole victim shame thing. I was angry. I listened to it and I wasn’t angry at you, but I was just so angry knowing that so many women never share their story. And either they’re living as victims in the space and the world of guilt and shame, or some of them have passed on never feeling that freedom that you and I feel today. And I want to help millions of women, even if it’s just through writing and sharing your story with me. Or we jump on my podcast and share it as a revamp in my podcast. And if even just one chapter of that story, I want you to share it. Share it without retribution. Share it without the guilt and the shame. Share it out of your spirit of survivorship. Out of that gratitude-ness. Out of that liberation. Knowing that you’re no longer a victim. You survived the hell that life put you through. Girl, rise! Rise. Share your story so we can help others to do the same.
Marissa:
I am so in agreement with you. Everything you just said. There are so many of us. One of these campaigns that I started a couple of years ago with a friend was called I’m a Statistic because the connotation of being a part of a statistic is so negative. You’re just a number. But if you think about it in terms of survivors, you’re a statistic, you’re one of a million, or one of one hundred million. Of this huge number of people that can all relate to you and empower each other to speak our truth. To let that weight get lifted off our shoulders and help us heal. So, I love that. I love everything you’re saying. When you started seeing your therapist, and I also saw that you used a healing coach, what techniques or tools did they teach that you helped you with your anger, and your bitterness, and also with your healing.
Dr. Mattison:
Number 1, breakthrough for me happened when I was taught to speak to the little girl when she shows up. That little girl was always ignored. She was always told to shut up. She was abandoned. She never felt like she mattered. So when that little girl shows up now, I don’t ignore her. When she wants to be acknowledged for how she’s feeling, I stop and I pay attention. So that was a breakthrough for me was to recognize acknowledge and pay attention to the little girl, Little Leonie when she shows up. And what that looked like for me while i was on my healing journey, an example is, I was diagnosed with breast lumps, and I remember I was angry. And I wondered why this happened to me. So when I went into the surgery, it left a lot of marks. The wounds and the things to deal with. And I wouldn’t touch my breasts. I felt shame, I wouldn’t touch it. And I remember the second tool that I learned was to do mirror work. And I remember, I’m in front of my mirror, and I didn’t want to look at myself. I was looking away. And finally, I said, I’m going to face her. I’m going to face me. And I looked in the mirror at myself, and I looked at myself and I said, “I’m not going to ignore you. It’s not fair. You gave my children, you breastfed my children, and now that you’re not well, I’m going to ignore you? No!” And I just started putting lotion all over my body. And I started lotioning myself and just thanking my breasts for what it has done and how far it has come with me.
And I lotioned my body and thanking my body, and thanking my organs and my hands and my feet. I just started being grateful. And then I said I love myself. I remember I looked at myself in the eyes and I say this to women, “Leonie, I love you. I love you. I’m not going to abuse you.” Because that’s what a lot of us as survivors do, and we don’t know we’re doing it. We end up abusing ourselves. We end up ignoring ourselves. We end up being so negative. And in the book, there’s a chapter in the book where I actually went through a whole exercise for what I learned. It's around page 181. I remember listening to Lisa Nichols, she’s also a motivational speaker, and while I was attending on of her conferences, I learned this. About speaking forgiveness over yourself. And I wrote in my book, after hearing Lisa Nichols speak during one of her seminars, I started speaking words of forgiveness to myself in the mirror. Every day for 21 days I would look myself in the eyes, place my hands over my heart, and with no self judgement, would learn to speak forgiveness over myself. And affirm the value of my God-ordained existence.
Now here’s what I wrote, and replace your name with mine.
[Leonie] I forgive you for forgetting who God says you are, and for not accepting yourself completely. [Leonie] I forgive you for allowing others to corrupt your mind into thinking you weren’t good enough. [Leonie] I forgive you for lowering your standards and seeking love and acceptance in all the wrong places. [Leonie] I forgive you for letting people take advantage of you, and letting bitterness cause you to miss mistake lust, lies and loneliness for love. [Leonie] I forgive you for ignoring the warning signs. For not trusting your discernment.
I also honored my commitment to the woman I’m becoming through positive self-talk. So that’s another tool I learned and I wrote.
[Leonie] I commit to valuing myself and that my Yes will be a true YES. And my No will be a firm NO. [Leonie] I commit to pressing stop completely on the negative self talk. [Leonie] I commit to letting go of living in torment from living in past failed relationships. [Leonie] I commit to loving you always and will be okay with you when you’re crying, and when you feel sad. [Leonie] I commit to lightening up and not coming down so hard on you.
The next part, I wrote:
I celebrated with Love, the woman who is taking steps to write a better next chapter in her life.
[Leonie] I celebrate you for getting out of bed this morning. [Leonie] I celebrate you for showing up and operating with excellence at work. [Leonie] I celebrate for seeking help to heal, and I celebrate you for writing and sharing your story with the world. [Leonie] I celebrate your model in self-care, self love and healthy boundaries. [Leonie] I celebrate you for knowing, believing and appreciating the fact that your very existence is enough. You can rise above your limitations ands self defeating thoughts. To stand in the space of possibilities. In that space there’s plenty of room for pioneers of the possible. History makers. Navigators of the unknown; Change agents, and trail blazers.
God remains the same. He is the creator of life, the author of purpose, and the remodeler of old into new.
Marissa:
I love that. I think mirror work is so strong and so underrated. And your affirmations are phenomenally written. They are so powerful. You are such a powerful speaker and I really do enjoy listening to you. I think you should make your book an audio book so I can listen to it. Your voice just adds something to it. Your passion and your true love towards helping survivors and through telling your story is really infectious, and I just catch myself drifting off listening to you. Envisioning what you’re saying. I love it. So, thank you very much for sharing all of that.
And going back to mirror work. Mirror work is so important. It’s all about telling yourself how much you love yourself, and forgiving yourself and looking at the parts of your body and the things that happened to you, that hurt you. And learning to truly embrace them, because it’s all just a part of you and it’s a part of your story. I love it.
Dr. Mattison:
Thank you. Thank you very much.
Marissa:
What advice would you give to survivors that are still either on their healing journey or not yet on their healing journey.
Dr. Mattison:
Mmm. That’s a great question. So, if you’re a survivor of trauma, and you're desperately seeking help and thinking about fulfillment in your life, and let me say there are a lot of people out there who aren’t, I think the best thing the woman or men who love us who are listening today can do, is to listen to your soul. It has a voice. I mean, really stop and listen to the wisdom of your soul that’s crying out for healing. That was what caught my attention.
You’ve got to make the decision to reclaim your life. You just have to. And take the determined steps to make sure that you do. That’s where I remember I got stuck. I spent my childhood pretending to be someone else, while I was hiding behind the pain of my past. Much of my adult life, I was hiding behind the childhood pain, while I was retreating back into darkness. And i remember I thought I was living up to what society expected of me, and I wanted to be something other than who I really deeply felt in my soul I was created to be. I made my soul sick. And when the soul is sick, it’ll vomit all over you. When the soul is sick, it shuts down. When the soul is sick, you’re confused about your purpose. When the soul is sick, then the body eventually manifests itself off the sickness. The mind manifests itself on that souls sickness. And so, I remember having to just pause, because I was realizing these symptoms, you know the bitterness, the anger, the sicknesses that I was experiencing, were all symptoms of a soul that was sick.
And so that would be my number one advice to victims and survivors. Listen to your soul. Listen to it. And because it’s during those moments that your soul will actually help you to see what you’re wanting and needing to help it to get better. It is during those moments that we will see that, “you know what, I need to listen and I also need to take steps to becoming better.” So embrace the wisdom of your soul, and turn off the noise of everything else that is unnecessary.
Marissa:
That’s great advice. One of the chapters in my second book, Breaking Through the Silence: #Me(n)Too, was “You’re Only As Sick As Your Secrets.” And I love that. You really are. You’re only as sick as your secrets. If you hold on to your abuse, and you don’t let it out, and you don’t heal, you’re truly killing yourself from the inside out. Is there anything else you’d like to share?
Dr. Mattison:
My book is now available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, almost everywhere books are sold. And in March, actually, I’ll be preventing at the Best You conference in Los Angeles and I’m inviting folks if you’re in the LA region to come on out and hear more about my book. The topic of the talk is Rise From Trauma and Reclaim Your Life. So, I’m really inviting as many women as possible to come out to March 20th at 5pm to attend to really important intentional conversation that I’ll be having with women. And my website is being revamped. My podcast will be ready around the April timeframe, and so I’m also welcoming guests who want to share their story of trauma and how they’ve achieved intentional transformation. And also, together we can learn so we can help more women to rise to become the women that they were created to be. So, you know, that will be my last little tidbit for our listeners.
You can follow me on Instagram: Leonie H Mattison
I’m on facebook: Leonie H. Mattison,
Twitter @LeonieMattison.
I really look forward to engaging with as many women as I can this year because I am on a mission to impact millions. And one of the last things I’ll share with you about how my book took another turn, too, I’m actually doing some work in the local county jail here in Santa Barbara. So the book is actually in the jail here, and the women are reading the book and they have tons of questions. So i’ll be starting a 12-week program online and also on-site to really be looking at how to achieve intentional transformation. SO people can check out my website, I’ll have more information in the coming days on how I’m really on this mission to reach a million women with a message of intentional transformation.
Marissa:
Great goals and thank you so much for sharing your story, and your work with us. You’re such an inspirational person and I’m so happy that I got to talk to you today. Thank you very much for being here today.
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entires lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
There is a lot of misconceptions regarding the fine line between a loving, healthy relationship, and toxic, abusive relationships. On my facebook Page www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, I had a little campaign going where I would describe a behavior ask whether that behavior was love or abuse. For the most part, I would say that I used a lot of leading language, so people generally got the answers right. But there were a few points of contention that shocked me. So I wanted to explore this concept.
What is love? Some people characterize love as an intense feeling of deep connection. Or, feeling deep romantic, and sexual attachments to someone. What is your definition of love? What are actions and characteristics that you expect from someone who loves you?
Mine definition of love is the trust and respect towards someone that you have strong, affectionate feelings for. I truly believe you cannot love someone without wholeheartedly trusting and respecting them. Just like you can’t hate someone without loving them, you also can’t love someone without trust or respect. Think of someone that you love. It could be a family member or friend. Do you also respect that person? Do you respect opinions, their goals? Their wants and needs? I know that I ask my friends for advice all the time, because I trust them and respect what they have to say. Now, think of someone that you love but you don’t respect or trust. You don’t appreciate their opinions. You don’t think they’re a good person, making good decisions and doing positive things with their life. You don’t think they’ll keep your secrets? You don’t feel comfortable or safe sharing your thoughts, feelings, opinions or experiences with them because they might judge you. Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Probably not. And I expect anyone who loves me to also trust and respect me. They go hand in hand.
“Love” without respect and trust in my opinion is just sexual tension. That’s why friends with benefits often don’t end well.
Abuse is treating a person or animal (but in this case a person) with cruelty or violence, regularly or repeatedly. There has to be a pattern of abuse in order for it to be considered domestic violence, and intent to make the survivor feel badly.
You wouldn’t normally think that these two concepts could get confused, right? I mean they are so specific and so opposite. But think about this: You and your significant other, friend or family member, just pick one, are out to eat at a restaurant. The meals you ordered come out and are set in front of you. You excitedly dig in! The person you’re with looks at you, cringes and says, “You’re eating like a pig!” How do you feel?
Here is where the controversy is. Some people will hear that and think, “Well that was unnecessarily rude and judgmental. I’m hungry, and their intention was to make me feel uncomfortable, small or fat. That’s not love.” Meanwhile, someone else will hear that and think, “They were just looking out for me because they love me.” Which one did you hear?
Obviously, there is an element of perception, but on paper, that is classic emotional abuse. There are ways to convey a message about eating habits that aren’t low-key making someone feel uncomfortable, insecure, or judged. The only purpose of staying that was to have control of you and what you’re eating. The less you feel good about yourself and your decisions, the more control they have over you.
And this is where the misunderstanding on abuse vs love comes in. In this example, the abuser lacks RESPECT. Can you think of another example, hopefully not personal, where someone you respected said something to you to intentionally make you feel insecure? Write me a comment.
Along the same lines is jealousy. Jealousy is not love. Jealousy is a trait portrayed by abusive people. If your partner or friend tries to isolate you from other people because they don’t like you around other boys or other girls, or don’t “trust” you around people, that is an emotionally abusive and manipulative move. The purpose isn’t to keep you safe. It’s to keep you insecure and away from people that could undo the control they have on you, or empower you to feel good about yourself and your decisions. Your Narcissist want to to feel like they are doing this for your benefit, when it’s truly and honestly not. Someone who is jealous will typically put you down because they want you to be on their level. This is toxic. You should be surrounded by people who encourage you and boost you up.
I have a friend who told me a story that I think will help to clarify this. My friend, Jess, had a best friend, Ally. Ally was very needy, and constantly needed Jess’s attention. When she didn’t get that attention, she would blow up Jess’s phone, until Jess answered her. Then, Ally would use Jess’s disappearance to make Jess feel like a bad friend because Jess wasn’t there for Ally when she needed her. The problem was, this happened all the time. And usually, the situations that Ally would try and make Jess feel guilty about, either weren’t related to Jess at all, or weren’t that important. Jess just wasn’t allowed, by Ally’s standards, to have a life outside of their friendship. If they didn’t talk in a couple of days, Ally would harass Jess and call her a bad friend. Ally would make Jess feel guilty for spending time with other people, and engaging in hobbies without inviting her along. And it was toxic. That kind of control and abuse, although might seem flattering on the outside, was a way for Ally to have a controlling hand on Jess.
After Jess told me that story, I encouraged her to start to cut ties, because Jess didn’t feel like she could do anything anymore without running it by Ally first, or without starting a fight. That’s abusive, manipulative and controlling behavior. Have you ever had a friend like that with a friend or family member? Someone who would make you feel guilty or uncomfortable for spending time with other people, or harass you until you answered the phone? That’s not okay. And it’s not flattering. It’s abusive.
Regarding the aforementioned facebook posts, I wanted to run them by you, and let me know if you think whether these are abuse or love?
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Your partner feels insecure or jealous over your achievements. Love or Abuse?
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Your partner checks your text messages and social media accounts. Love or Abuse?
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Your Partner monitoring your eating habits. Telling you what you can and can't eat. Love or Abuse?
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entires lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
January is stalking awareness month, so I thought it would be fitting to make the last January episode about stalking.
The term “stalking” as defined by the Department of Justice, means engaging in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person to fear for his or her safety or the safety of others or suffer substantial emotional distress. Making someone feel unsafe in their surroundings or environment. Stalking occurs when someone repeatedly harasses or threatens someone else, causing fear or safety concerns. According to the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (NISVS), about 1 in 6 women and 1 in 17 men have experienced stalking in their lifetimes, reported by the CDC.
I was chatting about this with a colleague of mine last week while having some coffee, and we were talking about harassment and stalking, and how common it is. And I began to speak about experiences I have had with stalking, in college and in workplaces, and had this overwhelming sensation that, these are not experiences I have discussed much. I rarely speak, in detail, about the three times I was aggressively stalked, and figured it was because stalking isn’t a common topic. In fact, it’s rarely given the same weight as rape or assault — people will generally overlook it until something physical happens. But, stalking is extremely psychologically damaging. You don’t feel safe anywhere. Even if they never touch you, you feel unsafe in all areas of your life.
Have you ever experienced anything like this? That subtle feeling that you’re being watched? The tension in the pit of your stomach that something isn’t right? That unconscious need to peer over your shoulder consistently, but you don’t know what you’re looking for? That’s the residue of the psychological impact that stalking has on a person.
When I go to my alma mader, Rowan University to visit my old campus, or speak, I always find myself going to the one bar in the town for food. Landmark. Landmark is a big place. It has 3 separate rooms and a “nightclub”. I love the food there, but I find myself having this undeniable need to always be looking at the doors, or the entrances to the room I’m sitting in. I can’t have anyone sitting behind me, or I peer over my shoulder a million times.
And that goes back to a boy I dated in college for roughly one month. After we broke up, he would find out where I was, using his Fraternity brothers and other greek life resources on campus, and then show up. He would have his brothers stand in every corner, or by every exit of Landmark, watching me and monitoring everything I did. He would position himself outside of my classrooms after all of my classes, or have his friends outside my classrooms or outside of the building to watch where I go, and make sure I wasn’t with anyone else. He would use his fraternity brother’s facebooks to stalk me and see where I was, who I was with, and what I was doing. I was never one for posting all of my personal information anyways - but it really deterred me from even using social media. It even boiled down to me asking my friends to cut down on posting or tagging me in things, for fear he’d show up. Usually drunk. Always irate or crying.
I haven’t seen him since I graduated in 2014, and he hasn’t seen me in person either. But I still have this unconscious need to see the front door at all times.
I remember one night after class, my friend had to sneak me out of my classroom, and we maneuvered around through back doorways to get out of the building, because he was standing outside the room on a day that he texted me over 75 times in one hour, and didn’t answer. I was scared of his reaction. I was terrified of what he would say or do. His behavior was erratic. So, we snuck out the back-way, my friend came with me to my apartment so I could pack a bag, and we went back to his dorm where I stayed for a couple days while I made a safety plan. And that’s just one example of one experience I had with him, one time.
If you haven’t watched the Netflix series, You, I recommend it. Season 1 is painfully accurate regarding how the mind of a stalker works, as well as, signs and red flags that are commonly ignored or overlooked by stalking victims. Season 2 is great too, it just has more of a “serial killer” vibe, and less of a stalking vibe. The stalking is still there, but he’s more violent aggressively in Season 2. So I’m going to focus mainly on season 1. And this is a Fair warning, there will definitely be spoilers: SPOILERS! For example, when Peach starts to notice that Joe is always around, or was conveniently at the train station and other places that Beck was at, but Beck ignored and justified it. Overlooked weird things that Joe just knew about her, and how he would say the perfect thing. And how he was always right there, at the festival and in the park. Those are all big red flags.
Joe’s obsession isn’t really about making Beck feel loved and comforted, it’s about taking full control of her life and surroundings, and isolating her, so nobody can penetrate the wall he’s building around her. By encouraging her to stop spending time with her friends, and making her feel guilty or upset about wanting to spend time away from him, he is manipulating her free-will and controlling her life. When you’re on the inside of it all, it’s difficult to see. Especially with someone as coy and sneaky as Joe. But those yellow and red flags, the uneasy feeling in your stomach that tells you something isn’t right, are huge warning signs, and shouldn’t be ignored.
Penn Badgley, Joe, is not an unknown actor. He has been in hit films and shows like “John Tucker Must Die,” Gossip Girl, and Easy A. But after Netflix bought YOU from Lifetime, his twitter following blew up! Great for him! I’m really happy. But the messages he was receiving on twitter were horrifying. People would tweet at him and ask Joe to kidnap them, and that they wish someone would fight for them like Joe fights for Beck. THAT IS NOT OKAY! And Penn addressed this situation by trying to correct people’s mindsets about stalking. Here a couple examples:
- @PennBadgley kidnap me please
- Penn: No thanks
- Said this already, but @PennBadgley is breaking my heart once again as Joe. What is it about him?
- Penn: He is a murderer.
- I’m telling you it’s your face that does it. You’re gorgeous. I can see past that crazy shit.
- Penn: But you’re supposed to see past my face TO the crazy shit! It’s the other way! The Other Wayyyyyy Ugh!
- The amount of people romanticizing @PennBadgley’s character in YOU scares me.
- Penn: Ditto!
And I have to agree. The amount of people that are romanticizing stalking is sick.
Close your eyes and try to imagine this… or if you’re driving, don’t close your eyes, but imagine this scenario. Have you ever been out at a bar or a coffee shop with a friend, where you guys are sitting and catching up. And you start to feel this burning sensation on the back of your neck, like someone is watching you? You get a chill down your spine, and you can feel someone staring at you. You know the feeling. The chills roll down your back, and you look behind you, but nobody is there. You can take a deep breath, and continue your conversation, and enjoy the rest of your time there. Has that ever happened to you? If you’re a victim of stalking, that feeling doesn’t go away. Imagine living life always looking over your shoulder, and feeling like someone is watching. My stalker stopped trying to find me in 2016, and I still find myself looking over my shoulder. Even in places that he would never truly be in. My guard is always up now.
A common misconception that NEEDS to be addressed again, is being stalked isn’t romantic or flattering. I wasn’t stalked because I’m cute or have a great personality. I was stalked because a person who is controlling and manipulative worked his way into my routine, and did everything in his power to make me feel uncomfortable, vulnerable and scared. I was stalked because this person was sick. After I broke it off, he used to sit in his car outside my house at 2 in the morning and watch me. I lived on the first floor, and I would see him staring into my window at 4am. I had my best friend sleep over for 3 weeks so I could hopefully get 1 hour of sleep per night. This image of him standing outside my window as burned into my eyelids. Until I finally lost my mind, and started sleeping at other peoples dorms or houses, I did not get any sleep. I would pace around my room all night trying to find ways to get him out of my head.
At one point, He convinced my landlord that he was interested in real estate, and asked for an internship, so he could be in my house when I wasn’t there. And her office was across from my room. So he was always in close proximity to me. He would get intoxicated and call me asking if he could stay over because he was too drunk to drive home. And obviously, there was no reasoning with him. He would show up, throw tantrums, yell and scream until I let him in the house, and then would stomp around, kick, cry throw things, and cause a big scene until I gave in. Before you ask, I didn’t want to call the police because I felt bad for him, and was also scared of the backlash for him and myself.
And finally, he would fall asleep on my floor. And I would wake up, and he would be in my bed. Manipulative and Controlling.
When I worked for the Army, I had a co-worker who was a friend, and never anything more, that began to stalk me as well. He would harass me with text messages all the time, make really forward and uncomfortable comments at me, and imply that he, his wife and I should have a 3some. Those are not stalking… that’s just inappropriate, disgusting behavior. The stalking began when he started commenting on the pillow I was laying on at home, when he wasn’t there. Or when he would comment on my surroundings or the people I was with, without him having any prior knowledge. He hacked into my phone camera and was watching me. I thought I was going insane. And when I went to the police about it, they told me that it’s impossible to hack into my camera and that they think he is just a really good guesser.
So, I was alone on this one. I even made a report to the commander of the base, and she told me just not to go near him. I ended up covering my phone camera with a post-it note and was always looking over my shoulder at work and at home. It didn’t help that he knew where I lived. So, I registered for my FOID card, because this person has a history of aggressive, threatening and stalker tendencies. He has, in the past, threatened to kill himself and the person who he was stalking. She even transferred to a base in another state, several states away to get away from him, and he followed her there. And because of the 7 PRIOR reports that went un-investigated, I become paranoid that he would come to my house, or break into my house while I wasn’t home and kill my dog. If he’s willing to fly states to stalk someone, I think he’s willing to drive 45 minutes. So, I got a FOID card, and learned to shoot well. Luckily, it never had to use it, and I transferred to a different base. Not that he stopped trying to get to me… but it didn’t last much longer than that.
Anyone who has any social media, I’m sure, knows the term “facebook stalked,” or “Cyber Stalked”. It’s a soft way of saying that you dove deeply into someone’s facebook page. And that’s totally fine. My concern with it, is the act of cyber stalking loses its meaning when it’s watered down like that. Cyber stalking is what Joe does. He digs so deeply into someone’s social media, and connects dots to find out where Beck lives, who her friends are, everything about her friends, everything about her dad, where she was at that festival. Learns everything he can about her and everything around her, so he can systematically control her and all of them.
Cyber stalking is not a funny joke. I’ve seen lives completely turned upside down for a decade from being cyber stalked. Always watched. Always intimidated. Being threatened and sent candid pictures of yourself taken from your computer camera while you’re not actively taking pictures. I’ve had several friends who were being watched and then blackmailed with pictures taken from their computer camera’s, by someone who hacked into their computers, of them changing, or naked or after a shower, or in bed with someone. And those pictures were used against them. That’s such an invasion of privacy, and it’s terrifying! You’ve lost control of the comfort of your home!
Imagine being in that position. Imagine being sent pictures of yourself that you didn’t know were taken in compromising situations. That are now being held against you and threatened to be posted to someone who shouldn’t see them. That’s a real invasion of your privacy.
To prevent stalking, CDC promotes the importance of early prevention and support efforts, which can include:
- Empowering everyone to understand, recognize, and address stalking.
- Mobilizing men and boys as allies in prevention efforts.
- And supporting safe environments within relationships, schools, and communities through programs and policies that reduce risk and promote healthy relationships.
So to recap: Stalking is dangerous. It’s a loss of control of your life and your surroundings. It makes a person feel uneasy in their homes, offices, streets, anywhere and everywhere. It can result in physical harm and death, as seen on YOU. And it psychologically traumatizes victims for years, sometimes for ever. I can never say that i’m 100% over it. I still have nightmares, I still am paranoid in public places. I still look over my shoulder. I still like to be sitting facing the front doors at restaurants. I still wonder if someone is watching me through my phone or computer camera every day. The chill still runs down my spine when I think about it. And it’s been a few years since I’ve been in contact with either of these people. So, bottom line, before you write-off stalking as a minimal crime, just keep in mind that external damage heals, but internal damage doesn’t go away. It stays with you and inside you for a long time.
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entires lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Abuse is debilitating, and the feeling doesn’t just go away. Domestic Violence, emotional abuse, narcissism, and Sexual Assault, aside from physical damage, leave severe and lasting emotional and psychological repercussions on its victims. In sexual assault situations, our personal space and body are violated. We lose control of our bodies, and are instead met with shame, guilt and the feeling of being worthless and devalued. Our crime scene is our bodies. We never have the luxury to leave it.
And with domestic violence, something everyone needs to understand, it never starts out with someone punching us in the face. They need to hook us first. It’ll start with charm and love and kindness. Then slowly but surely start to verbally and emotionally abuse us, and that branches into physical and sexual abuse. It’s a cycle that never ends, sometimes even after we leave. But the verbal abuse and psychological abuse depletes our confidence and self-worth. We begin to lose ourselves. And when that happens, we convince ourselves that everything our abusers said to us was true. And tear ourselves down and make us feel worse and worse.
We often search for ways to forget, or pretend it never happened. And that doesn’t help either. You can’t escape your past. When it comes back to haunt us, the first thing survivors grab for are quick fixes. That can be anything from abusing substances or promiscuity, to total reclusion and anything in between. According to the Center On Addiction dot Org, a common psychological factor that attributes one to becoming a drug addict is having endured, “physical, sexual or emotional abuse or trauma.” The best way to take control of your past abuse is to build yourself up in a healthy way. And that starts with your confidence. Someone who values themselves and has a strong sense of worth, typically won’t turn to drugs or alcohol to numb the pain.
So, let’s keep you safe and build you back up. Give you your power back. The most important way to build your confidence is by changing the way you talk to yourself. And this goes for everyone - not just survivors of abuse. For whatever reason, it became a societal mantra that we are our harshest critics - which encourages us to trash ourselves, to ourselves. We as people should always push ourselves to be better and do our best. But not at the expense of our self-esteem.
In high school, typically we look to the athletes and the honors students as the high achievers. The ones with the highest sense of self, that push themselves the hardest and will go on to achieve the most. Right? For my high school, it was the soccer players. And what made our soccer team so successful is that they, and their coach, demanded their best from them at every practice. At all times, they were pushing themselves to do their best. But not at the expense of their confidence. The coach and team would bolster their sense of confidence, and they would supplement it by talking themselves up. Statistics show that high school students with more confidence are less likely to take part in risky behaviors. The two least susceptible populations in high school for trying drugs or teen pregnancies are : Athletes and Honors Students. Because these activities provide the students with confidence.
For me, I attended a magnet program for theater and performing arts for high school. So instead of having gym and electives, I had a secondary schedule filled with dance classes, voice and acting. And it was always the same people. And it was a lot of fun. But, I always felt isolated from my classmates. They were a clique, and I didn’t belong. Now, they never said I didn’t belong or wasn’t invited. It was what I told myself, everyday. That I wasn’t pretty enough, that I wasn’t cool enough, or that I wasn’t talented enough to hang out with them. And without them having to say a word, I completely took myself out of the running to be included in their group. At the time, I didn’t realize what I was doing. I felt like what they were doing and saying was what kept me isolated. But looking back, because I was telling myself that I wasn’t worthy of being a part of their group, I didn’t even try to be their friends. I had myself completely convinced that I was not good enough.
Have you ever had an experience like this? Think back to a time where you felt left out or isolated from a group or an event. Did anyone ever say anything about you not being invited or welcome there? Or was it you that told yourself? Was it you that convinced yourself that you’re not good enough to be there? Or that nobody there likes you?
I wanted so badly to live with the confidence they had, but I didn’t realize that I was the one tearing myself down constantly. With the help of my teachers and peers, I was handed more than enough evidence to prove to myself what a piece of crap I was, but it was really just me tearing myself down. Have you ever noticed yourself doing that? Reiterating what someone else that you respect says about you? When others say it, it hurts, but not as much as when you say it to yourself. Think of a time that someone you loved or respected told you some horrible quality about you. Even if it was in a fight. What did you say to yourself after they said it? Did you tell yourself that it wasn’t true, or did you agree and feel even worse about yourself?
There are innumerable benefits to building your confidence. First and foremost, you won’t feel bad about yourself anymore. You won’t blame yourself or beat yourself up. You won’t feel powerless or like a small floating blob in the big, big universe. Instead, you could be the person that inspires others. Finding love within yourself, and being able to share your journey with others is inspiring. Recognizing that you’ve overcome obstacles, whatever that means for you, and helping others to do so makes you a leader.
What I want you to do today, is recognize all of your amazing qualities. Like I said, it’s easy to beat ourselves down. So let’s work on building self esteem. Let’s take some time and reflect on all of our amazing, strong qualities, and start putting more emphasis on those, than on the negative qualities that we judge and criticize ourselves for.
In the comments, make a list of your favorite qualities about yourself. It can be something physical, like, “I love my eyes,” or “I love my smile.” Or something emotional like, “I really care about my friends.” or “I am a kind and generous person.” It won’t seem conceited or egotistical. It’s confident. If you’re beating yourself up because you can’t think of anything, just ask your best friend or a family member. Somebody you trust whose kind and whose opinion you respect. Ask them what your 5 best qualities are and write them down.
Within the next few weeks, I will be launching a program called 5 Days to Confidence (Now, Healing From Emotional Abuse: Confidence Building Exercises for Survivors of Narcissism https://marissafayecohen.thinkific.com/enroll/1064727?price_id=1184204 ), where I take these ideals and more, to help you build confidence back up after abuse. Changing your self-talk is just one small step to increasing confidence. In 4 days, you’ll learn tools tips and tricks on how to build yourself up, and stay confident while healing from your trauma.
Thank you guys for tuning in today! You’re taking big strides to becoming a more confident you! Next week, we’ll be talking about Stalking. The dangers, the show You, and maybe a special guest!
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Thats www.M-a-r-i-s-s-a-F-a-y-e-c-o-h-e-n.com backslash private-coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entires lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Hello and Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. I’m Marissa F. Cohen. Today, we’re talking about Victim Blaming. What is Victim Blaming? Victim Blaming is Devaluing the victim of a crime, an accident, or any time of abusive maltreatment by holding them wholly or partially responsible for the wrongful conduct against them.
In laymen's terms, that means blaming somebody for the crime that they did not commit. That they were a victim of. Or putting any sort of blame on that person, even though they had no part in the making of the decisions.
There are a lot of ways that people might not realize that they’re victim blaming. A lot of really common phrases are blaming somebody by saying that they’re doing this for attention. Or they’re saying it for attention. By asking somebody how much you drank. If you were at a party and something bad happened to you, saying, “how much did you drink?” Or, “did you use any drugs?” And using that as a means to explain why that person is at fault for what happened to them.
And my absolute least favorite ever, and it still, I don’t understand how, but it’s still so common that this is the first thing people ask victims of sexual assault after it happens. “What were you wearing?” Why on earth would somebody’s clothing determine whether it’s okay or not okay to take advantage of that person? I’ll never understand. Or, “if you didn’t want that to happen to you, than you shouldn’t have… blank.” So you’re saying that they are the cause of what happened to them because of something they did.
And while some of these play a part in being targeted for abuse, they are not the reason for the assault. The only reason a sexual assault happens is because offender chose to offend. The victim does not have a choice or any say. They don’t give consent. And that’s what makes it sexual assault.
Rape and sexual assault are never about sexual urges or being turned on. It’s about power and control. Being able to overpower a person, and take away their control. It’s a violent and coercive shift in the power dynamic.
A perfect example is, On January 1st, 2020 an article came out from Northern Illinois University’s newspaper, the Independent, citing a classic example of victim blaming. A woman was sexually assaulted in an alley behind a bar, and the lawyer representing the establishment, El Hefe Super Macho Taquiria, stated that “she was more than 50% of the proximate cause of injury.” That’s his way of saying, she did this to herself. The survivor claims that she was drugged at the establishment and assaulted by the two security guards that escorted her out to the back alley behind the bar. The bar’s defense against that was that she became overly intoxicated and, “neglected to take adequate and proper steps necessary to protect her own safety while at the establishment.” So now, not only are they saying that their employees, their security guards were not responsible for what happened, but she completely is because she was drinking and became intoxicated.
Now, I know that, that’s not an excuse, and that’s classic victim blaming. But that is so dangerous to survivors.
So, what do you think about that? Does the responsibility of safety fall on the establishment or on the patron?
I know from working in the restaurant industry for 12 years that laws surrounding getting a liquor license will tell you that the establishment is to blame. They are required to maintain a safe environment for patrons by monitoring drinking while in the establishment. But what do you guys think?
Another example is:
In 2018. the Centre de Communautaire Maritime in Brussels featured an exhibit filled with clothes worn by victims of sexual assault to combat the idea that what you were wearing does not in any way justify rape. There were clothes from button up tops and dress pants, to dresses, jeans and even baby clothes. Toddler clothes. Clothes that you were too young to be able to know or be able to conceptualize what sex is. And they were hanging on the wall. Hundreds of pieces around this exhibit. And it was really eye opening for a lot of people. It doesn’t matter what you’re wearing. What matters that somebody else is taking control of you. Whether you are conscious or unconscious. Whether you are a child or an adult. If there is no consent, it is sexual assault. It is rape The belief that what you were wearing causes rape is extremely damaging to survivors.
There are numerous programs you’ll see around college campuses in April. There’s denim day. There’s the Clothesline project. There are all these programs and all of these things to show you that it really doesn’t matter what you’re wearing. There was a girl that was raped while wearing jeans and the judge decided that the perpetrator was not guilty because jeans are difficult to take off. And in order to pull jeans off of a person, the person wearing the jeans needs to help. So she was partly responsible for her rape and therefore, he was not guilty, which is the origin of Denim Day. People wear jeans on Denim Day to show how ridiculous a claim that is. You can be raped in anything.
Think about it this way. Do we blame people that wear backpacks or purses for their belongings getting mugged? Do we blame people who were the victim of a drive-by shooting or a school shooting for being shot? What is the difference?
When victims come running out of a school, or afterwards on the news when we see a school shooting, we never, ever, it doesn’t even cross our minds to blame the people that were shot. Or the people that were there, that were not the shooter or the event. So why do we blame survivors of rape and sexual assault for what happened TO them without their consent? What’s the difference?
Another example. After the video was released of former Baltimore Ravens Running back, Ray Rice beating his then fiancé (now wife) Janay Rice, the Baltimore Ravens tweeted about how that was Janay Rice’s fault. She was clearly the victim in all the videos. There was nothing she could have done to deserve being punched like that, then dragged by her hair out of the elevator. But we try to blame the victim because the Baltimore Raven’s didn’t want the negative PR against Ray Rice. That’s not right.
And what about that case in Stubenville, Ohio? There was a 12 year old girl that went to a party, just like 200 of her classmates. She got drunk and passed out and then was gang raped by her entire football team. Clearly she was too young to be drinking, but you know what, so were the 200 other people that were there, including the football players. So why is it that the town of Stubenville turned against the girl who was gang raped by the football team, and not the football team? And not the students that took videos? Why was she the one that was vilified and tormented and harassed until her family left the town?
As a society, I feel that we tend to value people who are more important. Who have a higher value. So the football team brought money and attention to Stubenville, so it only “makes sense” to value them more than the victim of a crime, right? That makes total sense.
And transitioning past that, who remembers the Harvey Weinstein case? I mean, how could you forget it? A ton of celebrities came out about that, starting with Ashely Judd, Alyssa Milano, Rose McGowan, and it eventually got to Angelina Jolie, Reese Witherspoon, and all of these people who hold so much value in society. We never for a second doubted these women. Not once did I hear anyone say, “Oh, they’re probably lying about it for attention.” Why? Why do we put more belief in people who “hold value” than other people who are victims of the exact same crime? Why do you think nobody doubted the famous celebrities that came out and spoke up about their abuse? And why are we the first ones to jump on people that accuse famous people? Like Bill Cosby’s accusers. And the accusers of famous NHL players or basketball players? Why are we so quick to judge them, but we’re not nearly as quick to judge famous celebrities who are accusing other people?
Do we think fame or celebrity or value affect peoples likelihood to believe the victim?
Here is how Victim Blaming hurts people.
It makes victims less likely to come forward because they don’t want to be blamed or not believed by people. They’re afraid of the JUDGMENT that comes from coming forward. It prevents people from breaking their silence, and getting the help and healing they really need!
It silences victims and empowers predators.
The documentary The Hunting Ground from 2013, followed a bunch of survivors of sexual assault on college campuses. In their research, they found that only about 9% of males in the world are abusers. Of the small percentage of men who are abusers, about 85% of them rape 6 or more people. So, why are we empowering small percentage of perpetrators that are hurting people, instead of the giant number of survivors every single day? Why do we empower the people that are hurting people, instead of the people that are trying to heal?
And I understand, I always get this. You might be thinking, “Hey Marissa, but what about false reports? Those people must account for something.” I’ll get more into this topic in another podcast, but only between 2%-8% of reports to authorities are false reports. Now, take into consideration all the sexual assaults that happen. 1.5 million girls will get raped in college. 1 in 3 women and 1 in 5 men get raped in their lifetime. And of all of that, only 5% of cases get reported to the authorities. And of that 5% only 2-8% are false reports. That is the exact same number, it is equal to every other crimes false reporting statistics. 2-8% of breaking and entering reports are false reports. 2-8% of homicides are false reports. 2-8% of every criminal act reported to authorities are false reports. So why are rape victims the only ones with the bad reputation? Why are rape victims the only ones that are doubted?
Bottom line, be more mindful of victim blaming in your every day life! Let’s empower survivors and champions to take their voices back and tell their stories. We can stop so many horrible things from happening if we stop doubting survivors, and we start believing them and empowering them to speak their truths.
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Thats www.M-a-r-i-s-s-a-F-a-y-e-c-o-h-e-n.com backslash private-coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough. Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation. But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn’t have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Hey Everyone, Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Where we talk about anything related to narcissistic abuse in a very raw and candid way. The whole point here is to bring awareness to the topics of domestic violence and sexual assault. I want everyone to know what people go through, and the different topics and coping skills that relate to narcissism, and narcissistic abuse and sexual assault so that you can be more understanding and aware of people and friends and family members who experience it, and how you can better help.
My life mission is to help survivors who are leaving abusive relationships or have already left abusive relationships find healing. I want to help you succeed and be the champions of your lives. Take your life back and take your voice back.
Today I just wanted to share a bit of my story, and how I’ve gotten to where I am now from the experiences that I’ve had.
My first boyfriend in college started off by being kind and he was charming, and he was funny. We were on the student government together. Every single day he’d bring me snacks to my desk, and we would put our feet up on my desk and watch Glee and eat snacks. It was fun and he made me feel special and loved. And I was thrilled because he was my first ever relationship, and that’s what I wanted. I wanted someone to coddle me, and be kind and funny and thrilling. It was thrilling. It wasn’t thrilling like we were on a roller coaster. It was thrilling like this is what I saw in movies, and this is what I always dreamed my first relationship would be like, and it was really happening.
So, by the time we were official for three months, he did a complete 180 and had become verbally abusive, emotionally abusive, psychologically abusive, and sexually abusive. It started off by him telling me that the things I was saying were dumb or stupid. And then my opinions were stupid. And then, everything I did and said, and believed and wanted were stupid. One of the things that he told me was that I was never going to be independent. That I’m always going to depend on a man, specifically him, for support financially and emotionally, because I was a piece of crap. And I would never amount to anything.
After he would say things like that, it’s not like I had the foresight to say, “Hm, he’s wrong. I’m not going to be like that. I’m never going to be like that.” At this point, he had fulfilled my dreams and what I expected from a boyfriend. And I had grown to love him and respect him so much throughout the first couple weeks and months, that by the time that it was getting really bad, I didn’t even see it anymore. I thought and felt that everything he had said and done to me was because he loved me and respected me. And he wanted me to be better. I thought that it was all out of love and respect, because that’s what I gave to him. I thought that this was his way of showing love and respect to me.
At this point, it was a little bit passed Christmas. I had become such a shell of a human, that was experiencing horrendous bouts of depression and anxiety. The thought of going to school, getting up in the morning, showering, brushing my hair, were all feats. And they were things that I needed to overcome every single day. I was still on the student government, I was still the face of the student government. I had all of these responsibilities and things I needed to do, on top of working two jobs and taking six classes.
So, it’s not like I had a lot of time to wallow. I just had to figure out how to pretend that I was not this broken shell of myself. So, everyday I’d go to school. And everyday, people would talk to me, and talk to me and approach me, and he would demean me and it just never got better.
And I thought, “He loves me, and he is doing this because he loves me. I just wish he wasn’t hurting me. I wish he wasn’t saying these things and I wish he wasn’t doing these things. But he must be doing it for my benefit.” And all I could think about were the good times. How at the very beginning, we’d sit at my desk and watch Glee. And how he took me on these beautiful dates to these amazing restaurants. How he took me for a walk on the beach, and held my hand, and made me feel so special. And said all these beautiful things to me. That’s what would go through my mind every single day. All of these horrible things that were happening right now must be coming from a better place because he’s still that good person inside. There’s still that goodness in him, and those experiences that we had. And occasionally we would go on beautiful dates, and he would say beautiful things, and we would do fun stuff and he would be nice. But it just got worse and worse. With everything that I let him get away with and everything I didn’t stand my ground on.
I want to stop for a second and really reflect on this. Have you ever had an experience like that? Where a friend or a boyfriend or significant other or family member treated you in a way where you didn’t truly understand what they were doing was narcissistic and abusive? But it made you feel bad, you just justified and rationalized it? Think about it. Because that’s something that all survivors of narcissistic abuse go through. It’s really important to keep that in mind when you’re working with or talking to or helping survivors of domestic violence, sexual assault, emotional abuse and narcissism. Not seeing those red flags and justifying those behaviors is very common.
On January 15, 2010, the ten year anniversary is coming up, I remember we were at his house and his parents and his brother were downstairs, and we were upstairs in a hang out room. We were watching a movie and the movie ended and I said I need to get ready to go. I had about 15 minutes before I had to leave to be home before my curfew.
He suggested we go and cuddle for 15 minutes before you go. “I really want to spend that time with you.” And that was something that we’d done before. We cuddled, and laid in his bed. And we’d lay on the couch. It was fun and familiar. And those were the quality moments that I rally loved with him.
So, we went into his room, and we got on his bed, and he said, “If we’re going to cuddle, I want to cuddle naked.” It was weird, but it wasn’t out of the ordinary. It was something we’d done before. He justified and we justified it as, the skin-on-skin contact is so much more beautiful.
At this time, I was a virgin. I had never done anything before. I think I made out with one guy, maybe two guys before him. But that was it. I’d never done anything else. So, he knew that I was not ready for sex. We had had that conversation, to the day, one week before that I wasn’t ready. And we’d been together for almost three months and I was still a baby.
So, we were laying in his bed, naked, cuddling, and then before I could even blink, he had flipped me onto my back, held my hands above my head, and he began to have sex with me. It was so shocking that I couldn’t breathe. And it was like time had stopped, and everything in the world was frozen. And I couldn’t move, and I couldn’t scream. And I couldn’t do or say anything. I didn’t even realize it was rape until about 6 months later.
I don’t know how long it went for, all I know is I don’t think I breathed the entire time, and when he stopped, he rolled over on his side and I was still laying on my back, and I was shaking. He was panting like he had just done all this incredibly difficult work. I just rolled over, looked away from him and started crying, and I couldn’t stop crying for an hour. I couldn’t make words. I think that was the first panic attack I ever had. I was gasping for air, and I was just hysterical.
And he was just laying there rubbing my back, telling me that everything fine and I’m just being dramatic. That, “Sex is nice and that’s what boyfriends and girlfriends do. You have sex with each other. So what’s the problem?”
I ended up staying at his place that night because I couldn’t drive. I was hysterical. And I stayed in a guest room, but I didn’t sleep the entire night. I don’t even think I closed my eyes for more than 10 seconds at a time because I was very fearful.
The next morning, he took me out for breakfast, after his parents gave me a ton of crap about having had sex. And making the joke that he owes me a morning after breakfast. And all this stuff. I was mortified. So, we went out to breakfast. He further justified why what happened the night before was okay. And how I’m supposed to just keep doing it. Doing it more will make it better. But I didn’t feel anything. It’s not like it hurt. It just felt numb. So the problem for me wasn’t that it hurt or didn’t feel good. Or that I wanted it to get better, physically. The problem was that I didn’t feel anything physically, but emotionally, I feel torn apart. I remember sitting at breakfast and I was eating food, I was force feeding myself, but I just felt this big, gaping hole in my stomach that I couldn’t fill. I thought maybe eating more food would help, or having more sex would help. I didn’t know, because I didn’t know it wasn’t normal. There was no education about what it’s supposed to be like afterwards. What you’re supposed to feel and that these feelings weren’t normal.
I had no idea, and I had no one to talk to about it. Some of my friends had sex. But it wasn’t a conversation that I was wiling to have. So, I sat down with my mom the next day, and she told me sex is beautiful. And sex is something that you do when you love somebody, and that it’s okay. I didn’t tell her that it wasn’t consensual. I still didn’t tell her, and after that, I just didn’t want to hurt her. I didn’t want her to feel like she could have stopped it, because she couldn’t have. I didn’t know what was going on. He took advantage in a very vulnerable moment. So, I just went with it and said thank you very much. And I know that sex is a good thing. It’s a good thing to do with someone you love. Fine. Cool. Moving on.
I didn’t talk to anybody about it for the rest of the weekend. But the next Monday in school, I was in the office with a couple of my friends, and I had subtly brought up the fact that Dave and I had, had sex for the first time, but I didn’t really want to. And their reactions were explosive. It wasn’t “Oh my god, what do you mean?” It was, “WHAT?? WHAT IS GOING ON?? WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DIDN’T WANT IT?? HE HAD SEX WITH YOU ANYWAYS?!” And I just was terrified, and I withdrew. They knew him. I still loved him and I didn’t want anyone to hate him or get him in trouble. Again, I still didn’t know that what had happened was rape. So I didn’t talk about it again for about 6 months.
I want to take another minute to reflect on this. What do you think you would have done in my situation? If you were already very timid about something that happened to you, and very, very confused about a situation, and you had people getting really aggressive and loud. It’s a little intimidating. I’d like to know what you think you would have done or did do, in that situation when you had it or when you could have potentially had it. It’s confusing and scary. And one of the biggest fears is potentially being judged. So now, you’re being judged, on top of being overwhelmed. So what do you think?
Meanwhile, I continued to have sex with him over and over again, because I thought maybe it would get better and fill that hole in my stomach. And then the sexual abuse got worse.
He forced me to go down on him. That was a horrendous experience, too. And he blamed all of that on me crying after sex because it made him feel so bad and he felt so guilty for making me cry. So this was me having to repay him for hurting him, which was really manipulative.
About 6 months later, I was driving with my best friend, and we were jamming to Taylor Swift and eating candy. We passed this ice cream place we both really liked and she said something like, “If you love me, you’ll pull over.” And I just lost it. I fell into another panic attack. She had to grab the wheel because I couldn’t breathe, and pull the car over for us. I unloaded everything, and told her everything. And that was probably the smartest, unplanned decision I ever made, because she happened to be the perfect person to tell that to. She was calm, and she was actively listening. She let me say what I needed to say, and she wasn’t trying to solve my problem. She listened to me, and loved me and validated me, and told me that we will do whatever it takes to make me okay. And to help me get over this.
My best friend happened to be the perfect person to tell this to and speak to. Not only because she was so calm and understanding, but because she had experience in it. And she totally empathized with me and totally understood what I was going through. Who is somebody you feel that you can talk to without feeling like you’re going to be judged. Or without feeling like what you’re going to say is going to scare them. Think about that, because those people are so important to have in your life.
So the event happened on January 15, 2010. On March 15, 2010, exactly two months later, I broke up with him. We got back together and broke up again a week later, but the big one was March 15. And then, in July is when I told my best friend. So, there was a good amount of time where I was just devastated, still and not talking about it. But not dealing with him, either, in a romantic way.
I definitely took my trauma and ran with it in a way that was very unhealthy. I still had that big hole in my stomach, and having sex with him didn’t fill it, so I thought maybe having sex with other people would. So I started sleeping around. Not with randoms, and not with hundreds of people. But people I was interested in, I was much quicker to jump into bed with them than I would have been. Than I was initially and planned to be, growing up. I was always a person that was very conservative with my “self.” I didn’t go on dates with people I didn’t want to. I didn’t kiss people I didn’t want to. I never felt forced to do anything. I never felt like I needed the attention. And so that stuff never really bothered me. And that stuff really never affected me.
But after this, I had this feeling, and I just wanted that feeling to go away. So that summer, I did my fair share of sleeping around and soul searching, and hurting people without meaning to. It was all about a self-discovery thing for me. And so, to anyone who I may have hurt that summer in 2010, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to. It was a reckless summer for me.
So many people have, so many different responses to this type of trauma. Some people completely withdraw from society, or from the gender that hurt them; Or from friends and family. And just maintain that victim mentality, “Shell of themselves” lifestyle, which is really, really unfortunate. Some people develop eating disorders. Some people really get into a hobby. It’s so different for every person. There is a lot of overlap in drug use and alcohol abuse and sexual assault and domestic violence. There is homelessness. There are so many different outcomes. So being understanding of that and knowing that this is all a response to a trauma, is really important to be mindful of.
So fast forward through the summer. I went back to school for about a week, and then I got accepted into a program in Israel, where I was studying psychology overseas in a phenomenal school. And so I jumped on a plane and went. And I moved their. I ended up connecting with old friends. And started a relationship with this guy who ended up being my first love. He helped me completely rewire my messed up brain. He helped me relearn about healthy relationships, about learning to love myself again, what to expect from a partner, and toxic relationships. He helped me put myself back together.
After my year in Israel, I moved home and continued with that relationship with the guy from Israel. I was back at the school with my abuser for one more year. I was elected Vice President of the Student Government, and he was the Treasurer. So I was still his boss in the student government, and he didn’t like that. So he spent the whole year trying to make me look bad. Trying to undermine everything I was doing and saying. At this point, I was already empowered. I had this phenomenal boyfriend who was still my boyfriend and came from Israel to visit me. And it made my abuser really really uncomfortable that I was so happy and so strong and sure of myself again. The whole year had gone by, then one day in April, I was sitting outside reading, and Dave came and sat next to me. And he asked if we could talk. I told him I’d prefer not to, but I will. What do you want?
And he said, “I just wanted to tell you that I ruined you. And I’m so sorry for everything I did. I don’t know why I did it. But I am really happy that you found the Israeli guy. And I wanted to apologize and tell you that I’m really sorry for everything that I did to you.” And I said okay thank you. And that was it.
After that, we were fine. I forgave him. I didn’t forget, at no point did I forget, and I certainly wasn’t going to go back to him - I knew what I was getting with him. Plus, I was with somebody so much better. But it was my sense of closure. And i knew that it was okay to move on and not hold on to that anymore. And that was huge. Once you forgive, never forget, but once you forgive, you’re taking that power back from them. When you hold on to that anger and that hatred and that darkness, all you’re doing is fueling their power.
So the next year, I transferred to Rowan University in southern NJ, and the Israeli guy and I decided that our distance was too much, and we can stay loving each other, and in a relationship sort of, but we could date other people. It was something that we agreed on and something that we were both comfortable with because it didn’t seem reasonable that while I was in college and he was in the military to hold onto each other like that.
That was 7 years ago. Now I am safe. I wrote two (now 4) best selling books about my abuse, and other survivors of abuse:
Breaking Through the Silence™: The Journey to Surviving Sexual Assault
Breaking Through the Silence™: #Me(n)Too
The Ruhe Approach: Healing From Abuse
The Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy: The 3 Keys to Overcoming Narcissism
And I plan on writing a lot more. I have a ton of stories to share. I’m an open book. So ask me anything.
Thank you so much for listening to Healing From Emotional Abuse today. I think that these messages and these stories are so important to get out because our voices need to be heard. I would love it if you would rate and share this podcast with anybody you think that needs to hear or read this information.
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
Get Your FREE COPY of my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now... Hey Everyone. My name is Marissa Faye Cohen, my website is MarissaFayeCohen.com, and I wanted to introduce myself before we start on this journey together. For the past 11 years, I have worked closely with thousands of survivors of narcissistic abuse, emotional abuse, sexual assault and harassment around the world of all sexualities and genders. I’ve published three best selling books The Breaking Through the Silence Series, and Healing From Emotional Abuse: the Three Keys for Overcoming Narcissism, all about how to heal from abuse. In these works, I use my 11 years of research and personal life experience to share my philosophy to overcoming narcissism, in order to help other survivors feel relatable, find healthy relationships, and boost confidence. That has become my life mission. To help as many survivors heal from their emotional abuse as possible. Between my books, the Breaking Through the Silence series, coaching programs and my Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, I have created a system to help anyone suffering heal from emotional abuse.
On this podcast, the goal is to answer the questions and concerns that survivors have in terms of overcoming and healing from their abuse. Can you heal from abuse? Narcissist definition. Is my partner a narcissist? Healing from narcissistic abuse. Steps to healing from abuse. Confidence Exercises. Confidence. Self Love. and Self Esteem. Healthy Relationships. What are toxic relationships? And much more.
I know that what you’re feeling right now is difficult, disheartening and it feels like the pain will never go away. But it will. I have worked with over a thousand survivors of emotional and narcissistic abuse, and created a philosophy to legitimately healing from emotional abuse. And it can and will help you overcome your narcissism, and live a free, confident and peaceful life.
Right now, imagine that you’re standing on a cliff, and across a deep deep canyon, is the happiest version of yourself. You see yourself smiling, surrounded by healthy relationships and good friendships. You see yourself having fun, and laughing. What are you doing? I have built the bridge to get you from here, where you’re standing now, to the other side. All you have to do it let me guide you across the bridge. If you’re ready to feel free raise your fist and say YES! If you’re ready to wear confidence, raise your fist and say YES! If you’re ready to live peacefully without fear, raise your fist and say YES! Awesome! You’re ready to start Healing From Emotional Abuse
Your abuse doesn’t define you. It’s the steps you take to heal that will determine the rest of your life.