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How can you ‘cast a wider net' and reach more readers with your books? How can you embrace the best of publishing options for your work? JD Barker explains how his publishing business works.

In the intro, How Authors Measure Success [Self-Publishing Advice]; Creating through Grief [Go Creative]; Death Valley; Successful Self-Publishing, Fourth Edition; Gothic Cathedrals; AI-Assisted Artisan Author webinar.

Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

J.D. Barker is the New York Times and international bestselling author of thrillers and horror. He co-writes with James Patterson, as well as other authors. He's also the co-host of the Writer’s, Ink Podcast.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Weighing up what is worth licensing, and what is worth doing as an indie author
• The importance of making connections in the publishing industry
• Why traditionally published authors are more open towards the indie framework
• Co-writing with James Patterson and others
• Writing across different genres and mediums to “cast a wider net”
• Tips for effectively pitching podcasts
• Benefits for an advanced author coming to Author Nation

You can find J.D. at JDBarker.com.

Transcript of Interview with J.D. BarkerJoanna: JD Barker is the New York Times and international bestselling author of thrillers and horror. He co-writes with James Patterson, as well as other authors. He's also the co-host of the Writer’s Ink Podcast. So welcome back to the show, JD.

JD: Hey, Joanna. It's great to be back. I was looking at the timeline, so like this was pre-COVID, I think, the last time we talked.

Joanna: Yes, I know. It's crazy. I also had look. It was 2020, which does seem like another life. So back then, we did talk about your background, so we're just going to jump straight into it today.

So the last five years, JD, how has it been like? Give us an overview. Well, not of the last five years, but—

What does your business look like now?I almost feel like five years ago you were almost relatively new on the indie author scene as such, but now you've really cemented your position.

JD: I was. So let me think, like five years ago, so that was about the same time that I called my agent and said, “I don't want you selling my English rights anymore. I'm going to do it myself.”

Joanna: Yes, basically.

JD: The publishing professionals, I think they hate me, because I tend to pull the rug out from under them quite a bit. Honestly —

I indie published my first novel, and I got a taste of what that was like. For better or worse, that was a deal breaker for me.

It's something that's always been in the back of my head, and I weigh it against every contract. At one point, I had a book coming out called A Caller's Game, and I called my agent, and like I just decided I'm going to indie publish it in English, and I'd let her go ahead and sell all the foreign territories like she usually does.

I wanted to see how that would play out. Honestly, I liked it a lot because it gave me the freedom and control that I had as an indie to get that title out there. I got the economics benefits of being an indie.

So I did that for a couple of different books, but I still ran into one particular problem. You know me well enough, I completely gloss over all the good stuff, and I just focus on the one or two things that aren't working right and that's where I tend to try and come up with some kind of solution.

I couldn't get into the big box stores. I was still having trouble getting into airports. I couldn't get into Target or Costco or Walmart. So that's something that weighed on me for a couple of years.

I guess about a year and a half ago, I sent my agent a copy of Behind a Closed Door, which was my latest thriller. We sold foreign rights on that almost immediately, and the book was going to auction with the traditional publishers—or not foreign rights, film rights.

I got a phone call from a friend of mine that worked at Harper Collins, and she said, “We're about to offer on this book, and when that comes in, you need to turn it down.”

I got a similar phone call from somebody over at Random House, and I asked why, and she said, “Well, the editor who wants your book is about to get laid off or about to cut a lot of people.” Then a week or two later, all those industry cuts that we all saw happened.

I don't know if you've ever been in a position where you've had a book at a traditional publisher where you lost your editor, but like that book can sit there in limbo forever, depending on your contract. Without somebody to champion it, it may not come out at all. So that really scared me.

So I kind of reached back to my corporate days. My last real job I had, I worked in finance, and I got a hold of some of the people that were involved in the purchase of Simon and Schuster at the private equity firm. I started some conversations, and ultimately —

I created my own imprint at Simon and Schuster, which is what I'm doing today.So I, basically, get the freedom of being an indie author. I can put out what I want, when I want, but I've got Simon and Schuster as my backbone. So they handle my print sales and distribution. So that's what I'm doing today.

Joanna: So you still upload the ebook yourself to KDP, but then you give the print to Simon and Schuster? Or does everything go through them?

JD: No. So the way I signed the contract, I've got my own LLC—well, it's an S Corp, I guess, at this point—but it's called Barker Creative. So the contract is actually between Simon and Schuster and Barker Creative.

So what that means is, when I have a book, I can pick and choose whether JD Barker is publishing it or Barker Creative is publishing it. If it's a Barker Creative book, it has to go to Simon and Schuster. If it's a JD Barker book, I can put it out on my own.

So legally, I basically created the wiggle room that I needed. So I can take that book and I can say, “I'm going to put out ebook on my own. I'm going to do audiobook through somebody else.” I can farm out those pieces. So that's kind of what I've been doing.

So I signed a contract with Recorded Books. They handle all of my audiobooks.

I just keep ebooks for myself because really there's no point in handing that off to anybody. It's so easy to do. Then I've been doing print through Simon and Schuster.Joanna: So how do you make the decision?

You said your biggest problem there was the big box stores, airports, which is why you wanted to do a kind of print deal press. How do you make a decision as to what you then keep as a JD Barker book versus a Barker Creative book?

For people listening, where is the line? Because a lot of people, let's face it, won't get the contract offers you do, but they do get offers. So I know people who get offers, maybe for a couple of thousand advance. Some are no advance, but royalties, plus maybe some marketing.

A lot of authors listening do get the chance for some kind of deal. Also, audio deals are coming up a lot.

How do people weigh up what is worth signing and licensing and what is worth doing indie?JD: I basically look at the book when it's finished, and I decide, what is going to cast the widest net?

What is going to cause this to get out in front of the largest group of people and possibly bring in more people into my reading audience? That's kind of my goal at this point.

A couple years ago, I was told that my audience was women 45 and over. So I wrote a young adult book, and started roping them in a little bit younger, and I continue to do that. One of the books I've got coming out—do you remember a movie from the 90s called Flatliners?

Joanna: Yes, you told me about this, but tell everyone else.

JD: Flatliners is one of my all-time favorite movies. It came out in 1990, and it's got this crazy cast. It had Kiefer Sutherland, Julia Roberts, Kevin Bacon, Billy Baldwin, and Oliver Platt, and all of them kind of at the start of their career. So people knew their names, but well before they became the household names that they are today.

It's about a group of medical students who kill each other one at a time, and then bring each other back to try and discover if there's any type of afterlife. I love that movie. I honestly still think it holds up today, and it's been a favorite of mine.

A few years ago, the guy who wrote it, his name is Peter Filardi, he got attached to one of my other projects. I wrote a prequel to Dracula for Bram Stoker's family, so he got attached as the screenwriter on that with Paramount.

We got to talking about Flatliners, and I told him, “Listen, I've got an idea to reboot this franchise.” At the time, he didn't have control of the rights. The studio still had those. So I just kind of planted the seed. A couple of years went by, and then I got a phone call back from him, I guess about a year and a half ago.

He said, “Listen, I just got the rights back if you still want to do something.”

So ultimately, we ended up writing a novel—which I'm literally finishing the final edits on today—to reboot this franchise. So it's going to come out as a book first, with film later. So we have this project basically done.

So going back to your original question, how do I decide who is going to get what particular book?

I could take this book, I could indie publish it, I could put it out on Simon and Schuster if I want to do that.

With a book that's got a high profile like this, I know the best possible place for this to go is one of the other traditional publishers, somebody who's willing to put a lot of marketing dollars behind it. So somebody is going to do something that I can't do on my own.

So we're going to let this book go out to auction. The film rights look like they're going to happen again very quickly. So my agent's going to hold up the book, we're going to see who bids the highest on it, and it's going to go that route. Again, this is mainly so I can get it in places that I can't on my own.

Joanna: I love that story, and I think that would be very cool. I'm very interested in in seeing that again. I remember that from the 90s.

The bigger thing here, when I was listening to you there, so there was this dude, and you met him years ago, and you connected. Then there was Bram Stoker's family that you connected with, and this guy in finance.

I remember from when you talked about your history, you were in the music industry and used to drive really famous people around. This is one of the things about you, it seems you have absolutely no fear in talking to anyone, however famous.

A lot of your bigger deals come from your connections. Is that part of your personality, or is that just something you fostered over time?I guess, for people listening, how can we be more like that?

JD: Well, it's tricky, because as writers, we're all introverted. I'm autistic, which kind of adds another whole level to this mess. I hate talking to other people, just like most authors do. I go to a conference, I want to sit in the corner and hide.

It's gotten to the point that if I go, I usually don't take my wife with me, because I would just hang out and talk to my wife the whole time. So I try to force myself out of that comfort zone.

At the same time, like, I've got a degree in business. I've spent a lot of time working in marketing.

Everything in this world, it doesn't matter if you're selling books or you're selling glasses or you're selling cars, it's all about who you know and cultivating those contacts.So every time I meet somebody, their name, what they do, who they are, all that goes into my mental Rolodex, and at some point I may call back on it. You never know when these kind of things are going to play out.

When I talk about this in front of writers groups—like, one year I was at ThrillerFest and I was in the elevator with Lee Child. So I got Lee Child standing five feet away from me. I've got 15 seconds.

I can either talk to him and possibly start up a conversation, maybe get a blurb from one of my books, or I can stand there and stare at the numbers like everybody else does. In my head, I'm thinking, well, what harm can come from making that ask?

I will always ask the question. I am a lot more afraid of the outcome of not asking the question than I am of hearing no. So I will always ask.

Joanna: Yes, but it's something I struggle with, and I know a lot of listeners struggle with as well, is that moment. So as you say, if you've only got a few minutes, can you push yourself past the uncomfort zone, as such, to at least try?

Do you think being autistic gives you more, I don't know, ability to take what others might feel as embarrassment or shame—I mean—

Is that something that you would ever feel? Like I would feel embarrassed, and then if he snubbed me, I would feel ashamed.JD: I think that's a big part of it. I don't feel a lot of those emotions the same way a, quote, unquote, “normal person” would. I'm just not afraid of it.

At the same time, somebody like Lee, Stephen King, all these different guys, like they've all stood in that same position that we are at the beginning of our career.

Everybody started somewhere. They've all been there fairly recently, and they still have memories of that. So I think when you do ask that question, as long as you can come up with a unique way to do it, I can stand out a little bit, I don't think there's any harm in doing it.

I've got plenty of people that come up to me and ask similar questions now, and I pull from that same knowledge base. I was doing this a couple of years ago, they're doing it to me now. I think in a lot of ways this, this entire author profession, we pay it forward as much as we can, and everybody does.

Joanna: Yes, and a lot of them are just—well, most people are nice, in general. I think that would be my thing.

Certainly going to ThrillerFest when I first went in like 2012, I was just starstruck by these authors who I'd been reading for years. I remember meeting Doug Preston and like Clive Cussler, and I was just a wreck.

Okay, well, here's the other thing, the indie thing. Back then in 2012, it was very early in the indie world, so I felt definitely kind of second class. Have you ever felt that? Or do you think things have changed? You network with lots of traditionally published people.

Do you think “the stigma” that some traditionally published authors used to tar us with, is that gone? Or do you come up against that anytime?JD: I don't know if it's gone.

So when I published Forsaken, my first book, it was 2014. So we were still very much in the thick of it. Because I had worked in the publishing industry for so long, I worked as a book doctor and a ghost writer for 20-some years, I knew a lot of people in the industry.

When I wasn't able to get an agent on Forsaken, I seriously considered indie publishing. I started talking to a lot of authors that I knew that were regularly on The New York Times list, and I would run it by them, you know, the whole indie versus traditional thing.

Every single one of them pushed back and said, “You don't want to go indie. If you do that, you're going to be stuck in that world forever. You're never going to get a traditional deal.” Like they completely tried to talk me out of it. I'm honestly glad that it didn't happen, that that didn't work.

Now you fast forward a little bit, like, I was just on the board for ITW, so I was working with all those names that you just mentioned, and many other ones. I can't tell you how many phone calls I've gotten over the last four or five years from big name authors who got their rights back on this title or that title, something in their back catalog.

They're like, “I really think I should try to indie publish this, but I'm not sure how to do it. Can you help me?” You know, like they are all looking at that.

What ends up happening is that title comes back, their agent gets it, their agent resells it again, typically for a lesser amount than they got the previous time. So it's a dwindling asset. Then it gets locked up for another five to seven years or so, and then they rinse and repeat.

They're seeing that they're just not making the kind of money that they used to. Every one of those deals is getting smaller. Some cases, those books aren't reselling at all. So they're ending up with all this back catalog.

Other authors, they haven't resold their back catalog at all. So books went out of print 15, 20 years ago, and they are sitting on those Word documents on their computer, not sure what to do with them. Today, 2025, they are all looking at indie publishing in one way or another.

Joanna: Well, especially if some of the publishers, like you said, Simon and Schuster, and there's quite a few people who were getting these print-only deals and having their own imprints.

It's interesting, the last time I was at ThrillerFest—I think it was 2017 the last time I was there—and I remember then people were also asking me about this. One guy said, “I used to get advances that were seven figures, and now the advances are maybe six figures,” and these are big name people.

So that almost feels to me why they're interested. The only reason is because all the money is—you know—

The long tail is where we live now.JD: Yes, they all see it, and they all feel it.

Regardless of the number of zeros in the dollar amount, it's all relative. They see that that industry is drying up. What kills me is, like, I don't see a lot of the traditional publishers making any changes.

The last book that I had traditionally published, they sent me the marketing plan. It had a substantial advance to it, so there was a marketing team behind it. The PDF document they sent me was literally the same marketing plan I saw from the same company five years earlier for a different book.

They just swapped out the cover images and a couple keywords here or there, but everything else was the same. It was this 30,000-foot view that really told me nothing as far as what they were doing.

If you step into a bookstore and look at the best-selling names that are there, the names that are out in front, on the end caps and the very first table and stuff like that, all these people are getting older.

The biggest name authors out there are all in their 70s, at this point. They're aging out.The big publishers haven't come up with a way to replenish that stock.

In the old days—and when I say old days, you know, 15 years ago—they would spend a lot of money cultivating a new author. They would find somebody who had a solid voice that knew how to write, and they would sign them to a five or six book deal.

As long as each book sold better than the previous one, they would continue to re-up that, and they would keep it going, knowing that they could turn that person into one of those big name authors one day.

In today's world, that's not happening anymore. They're signing people for one-book deals, two-book deals, and if they don't see the kind of numbers that they need to see at the end of that contract, they let you go.

Then you end up leaving one of the top five, and you go with a smaller press, or you indie publish or whatever. A lot of people don't know how to recover from that, and a lot of them are just dropping out of the industry altogether.

Joanna: Yes, funny you should say that. I saw a blog post from an author—again, you know, not mentioning any names—but it basically said, “I've seen the income go down, and I've just decided it's not worth it anymore.” This was another reasonably big name.

I was like, wow. It's very interesting if that's the way it goes. I almost feel like for a lot of indies, like myself, for example, I've never had a truly breakout book. I've just built up.

When you build up from a low number per month to a bigger number per month, you feel, I don't know, perhaps fine, compared to somebody who might have started on a massive deal for book one and then has just spiraled downwards. You know what I mean?

That feels like the difference in energy between the indies who are clawing themselves up and then the big name trad authors who are now spiraling down.JD: I think it's almost like a tortoise and hare thing.

If you come out of the gate and you have this enormous, big seller, you're going to be chasing that forever. Every book you write is going to be compared to that.

I would honestly rather be in your shoes, like a situation like you just said. Gently increase your revenue and your business model, everything just kind of raised just a little bit year after year after year. I think that's better because then it's a gradual thing.

As long as each book that you're putting out is selling better than the last one, you know, everything is constantly improving in a nice and slow and steady way. It's almost like the stock market. You're building a nice, solid base beneath you. If something goes wrong, it's not going to just fall out.

If you take somebody who has a big seller, all of a sudden they have these giant numbers that they have to try and hit every single time. Even if they have another big seller, if it doesn't hit those original numbers, it's seen as a failure. That's a tough position to be in.

I hate picking on people, but like, look at like Gillian Flynn. She had a three book deal. So her first two books did okay, but they didn't really sell that great. Then all of a sudden, Gone Girl hits. Imagine having to follow up Gone Girl. She has been at home writing the follow up to Gone Girl for years, and she hasn't put anything out.

Joanna: She wrote the screenplay. She moved into screenwriting.

JD: Yes, she she's moved onto other things. It's fantastic that she's actually got her hands in multiple pots. I think that's key, too. You talk about diversification all the time. That's something from this industry, and I think life, in general, I think a lot of people should take that away.

Joanna: I do want to just point out there, you said about the stock market and up into the right slowly. I mean, you have to zoom out. I think that would be what I would say. Nobody has that every book sells better than the last.

I mean, there's always books that come out that are just creative, and are not necessarily ones that hit the market. So if you zoom out, I think that's the point with the stock market, too. As an investor—

If you zoom out far enough over time, it does go up and to the right.JD: It does. Yes, you've got to look at the big picture, and as long as it's improving, you're in good shape.

Joanna: Exactly. So I want to come back, you mentioned there the big names, all in their 70s. Of course, one of the biggest names in the world, James Patterson. You co-write with James Patterson. Then since you've been doing that, you've also moved into his model of co-writing with other people.

You're the second name under James Patterson, but you're the first name when you're co-writing with others. So tell us about that. Why did you decide to do it? Because, frankly, I have heard from some authors who've done this that they didn't end up getting the sort of sales that they thought they would get.

What has been your experience co-writing with James Patterson?JD: Yes, so working with Patterson has been huge. I tell people it's almost like taking his Masterclass online, except he calls you and tells you everything you're doing wrong and gives you some advice.

We've had just as many phone calls on the business side of publishing as we have on writing side. He's been helping me kind of create the Patterson 2.0 with my own career.

I think I'm a lot of ways it's because he's older. He would probably do these things himself if he was in his 50s, but I think he's in a comfortable place right now. He doesn't see any reason to rock the boat, but he's getting some enjoyment out of helping me create a business model in today's world based on what he's learned.

From my standpoint, there's no way I'm going to turn down that advice. So he was largely responsible for me moving to Simon and Schuster the way that I did, the way the co-author titles are coming out, the people that I'm choosing, the countries that these books are dropping in.

He's been involved in a lot of those decisions, at least as an ear, a sounding board that I can run some of these things by. I hear you, like I know other people that have tried to do this before, and I've seen it not work, I've seen it work. In my model, it seems to be working okay.

People are buying my solo titles in a lot bigger numbers than they do the co-authored stuff. That being said, I'm pricing the co-authored stuff at a lower price point and getting it into places that my bigger titles may or may not get to.

I'm using it just like I do everything else. I'm using it to cast a wider net. I'm trying to rope in people that may not be able to afford a $10 ebook, because now they can buy a Barker book for $5.

Joanna: I like the idea of casting a wider net.

I think this is also something you do, you have deliberately not written the same thing over and over again. I mean, you do have a series, but it's not a massive series. Like, it's not a 25 book series, like some people. Well, like James Patterson has huge, long series.

How are you writing different kinds of books in order to cast a wider net?JD: Yes, I made a conscious decision at the get-go that I didn't want to write the same book but different over and over again. Being in the publishing industry, I had seen people get caught up in that.

Before you know it, they're 10 books in and they're dreading the writing process because they just don't want to have to do that same thing again. So I came out of the gate, my very first novel was horror, the next one was a thriller, then I did another horror novel. So I bounced back and forth on purpose.

This frustrated the hell out of my agents and the publishers because they weren't quite sure how to market all that. What I've been finding is it's allowing me to build brand, like people are basically seeing my name as the brand and knowing that they're going to get a particular type of book.

Not necessarily the same book, but they're going to get the same feeling, the same kind of pacing and those types of things. So when I go look for co-authors, I'm trying to find people that can add a little something to my mix that I may not be able to do on my own.

I'll give you an example. I had a book out about a year ago now, called Heavy Are the Stones, that I wrote with Christine Daigle. I think you know Christine. In real life, she's a neuropsychologist.

So I can fake my way through that in a book. I can do enough Google searches and watch documentaries, just like any other author. I can come up with something that seems realistic and plausible, but having a real neuropsychologist in the writing room is priceless. It allows us to take that to a whole other level.

So when I seek out co-authors, I'm really looking for that.

I'm trying to find people that can bring something to the table that I can't necessarily do on my own.At the same time, I take that book and I make sure the pacing matches my pacing, and make sure the language and everything is on par, the story is as compelling as any of my other titles.

So I kind of take something that they're working on and take it to another level. I dial it up a little bit so my audience will react to it. I think by combining all those different things, it seems to be working.

Joanna: Well, I can hear people in the audience who are like, “Oh, well, maybe I could pitch JD.”

Do you take pitches? And who are you looking for?JD: I do all the time. Where it honestly came from is I used to mentor a lot of authors. It was the whole pay it forward thing. I feel like helping other people really helps me recharge my batteries.

I love finding an author that was doing like 80% of the things right, but I spot like 20% that could be fixed, and I like to help them get through that. At the time, I was charging people for that, and I always felt icky about having to charge people for mentorship.

It was a good gatekeeper because it got rid of the people who weren't really serious about it. Ultimately, what I ended up doing is I flipped that when I started bringing in co-authors.

So I find somebody who, again, has about 80% of the skill set that I think they need, that needs a little help on one part or another. I bring them in and I walk them through the entire writing process. So we come up with the idea for the book, the title, the tagline, the back-of-book blurb.

I hold their hand through the outlining process. I hold their hand through the writing process. I'd make them do the bulk of the work because I want them to walk away from this a better writer.

Then in the end, I own the book, because from an accounting standpoint, it's near impossible to do co-authored stuff on a royalty split. It seems to work really well for everybody. So I'm constantly looking for co-authors. I have people that send me stuff all the time.

If somebody in your audience is into that and they want to reach out, they can find me on my website.

Joanna: To be clear, that's not brand new authors.

You're looking for people who have written books, so they actually know what they're doing.We're not talking about newbies.

JD: I mean, I get plenty of stuff from newbies too, and I'm waiting to find that gold in there. The truth is, this is just like any other profession. If you want to be a brain surgeon, they're not going to just throw you at the operating table. There's years’ worth of study and practice and things that go into play.

Writing is no different. To me, it's like a muscle. You have to work it out every day. Most people have to write maybe a half million words before they really figure out what they're doing.

So most of the people that find me that I end up signing, they've got one or two books they've written. Maybe they were with a small press, maybe they were with one of the big publishers, but it didn't work out. A lot of times that's a discoverability issue.

You could have the greatest title in the world, and Random House can put it out for you, but if the marketing plan doesn't hit just right, that book will fizzle and die. That doesn't mean the writer doesn't know what they're doing. So those are the kind of people that I'm looking for. I'm trying to find those hidden gems.

Joanna: Well, let's talk about marketing then. Of course, we've known each other years now, and I know stuff about you, but I was like, I'm just going to like Google JD to see what he's been doing recently.

This column came up in Rolling Stone and I was like, what is JD doing blogging on Rolling Stone magazine? Then I was like, oh, right, you used to kind of work tangentially in the music industry.

Why are you blogging for Rolling Stone magazine?JD: You know, I think it was just a call back to the early days. Back when I was working then in the music business, I would have loved to write for Rolling Stone. That was like the Holy Grail back then.

They approached me a couple of years ago, and they said, “Hey, would you like to do a column for us?” So it occasionally shows up in the print, most of the time it's just online, but they let me write whatever I want.

So I write two or three columns a month on whatever topic I feel like talking about, which is fun. I mean, and it's good exposure. From a marketing standpoint, it gets my name out there on a regular basis. So it seems to work out.

Joanna: Well, it's funny though, because this seems to work out. I know you do ads and stuff. With an ad, you pay for an Amazon ad or whatever, and you get some clicks, and you can tell that it's working. With the Rolling Stone, maybe online they let you have a click-through or something, but—

How do you know that it's worth it?JD: Well, it comes down to, again, this being a business and branding. So your brand, your name, needs to show up in front of people on a regular basis before they really recognize it.

So somebody may see a Rolling Stone article written by me. They may not buy my book for years, they may not buy it at all. But if they see my name once, twice, four or five, six times, just popping up in random places, all of a sudden, I'm a known commodity to them.

So they walk into a Barnes and Noble one day, and they're browsing the shelves, and all of a sudden my name jumps out at them. They recognize it. They don't quite understand why, but it speaks to them a little bit, and they pick up that book.

From a brand standpoint, anytime you can get your name out there, it's good. Try to do it as often as possible.I do Facebook ads, I do Amazon ads, I do all those different things. I also do tons of podcasts. I do tons of radio. I do tons of television. Any opportunity I have to get my name or voice out there and talk about the book process, I do it.

Joanna: Yes, I noticed that. As I said to you, your team pitched me like multiple times, and I'm like, stop it already! I thought it was interesting because they did also pitch me from different angles and different companies.

I feel like what you've said there, that some of these things are branding, and some of these things are sales. So the ads are trying to link directly to sales, and then the branding is a sort of nebulous. I haven't got a clue how this is going to work, but maybe somehow it will if it's all together.

What percentage of your time are you doing between those two things? Have you outsourced all the ad stuff as well?JD: The ad stuff I've got pretty much dialed in.

I tried outsourcing it, but then I found that the people that I talked to, like they are more than willing to take my money. They will put the ads out there, but the click-through rates that they were getting just weren't that great.

So I've done the same things that that that you have, and probably everybody in your audience has. I studied up on Facebook ads, and I post my own, and I just tweak them a little bit.

I do a lot of AB testing to figure out what images are working. I play with the text a little bit. I'm constantly changing them. I'm finding that my click-through ratios or rates are really low. Like, I get, like, between around five, six cents, sometimes. 11 cents, I think, is my average that I'm paying per ad on Facebook.

I like doing that. I think it's the autistic side of me too. Like I enjoy messing with something like that, coming up with a way to make it better. When I stumble into something that's working, I double down. I enjoy that process.

Joanna: Is your day half writing, half marketing?JD: Pretty much. I mean, I start at seven in the morning. I turn off the internet first thing, and I just knock out whatever words I'm working on for my latest projects. I do about 2000 to 3000 words.

Then I turn the internet on, that's usually about 10:30 or 11, and let my inbox fill up and just kind of deal with the business side of stuff. Afternoons, I do interviews from around noon until three, and then my quitting bell rings at three o'clock.

Joanna: Oh, okay, because you have a daughter, don't you?

JD: I do. One of the things that started happening very early on is when my book started to sell in foreign territories, I would get interview requests at crazy hours, like 11 o'clock at night, two o'clock in the morning, because you're basically dealing with their schedule. I took all of those, and I quickly started to burn out.

I was like there's no way I can sustain this. So in today's world, I just kind of force everybody into that little box, 12 o'clock to three o'clock. I've worked with tons of publicists, too, on the promo side. It's funny, you said that they contacted you a lot of different times.

I had one publicist that I had paid a huge amount to on a monthly basis, a retainer, and they hardly got anything. The publicist that actually contacted you that I've been working with recently, like I pay her for podcast that she gets.

So if she gets me a podcast, she gets a certain percentage. If she gets me a newspaper review, she gets a certain dollar amount. Everything is a la carte, and she's been hustling. So I try to find publicists that are willing to work on those terms, rather than just a flat dollar amount where there's no guaranteed results.

Joanna: Yes, I think those people are quite rare.

JD: They are, but if you keep looking, you will find them.

Joanna: Well, it's also really interesting because I've been podcasting since 2009, and for many, many years, a lot of people used to talk about the traditional media stuff. Then book blog tours was a thing for a while. Then a lot of social media.

Then what's happened, really in the last 18 months, I would say, is that I get pitched a lot every day, from a lot of traditional publishers. So all the big houses pitching, and all they do is just send a press release directly to my email and say, you know, “Opportunity to interview JD Barker,” and then just a blurb from your book.

I'm just like, will these people stop it already? Because this isn't a pitch. So for people listening—I know you have done some of these yourself, although you work with people like—what are you trying to do when you pitch whatever podcast, media, newspaper, whatever?

What are you pitching that's more than just “here's my book sales description”?JD: Well, we get them on Writer's Ink, too. So I totally get it. What kills me is when you get the ones that have absolutely nothing to do with the type of show that you do.

Joanna: Oh, yes. “Here's a credit card company.”

JD: Yes, or, “This guy is a business entrepreneur, and he can tell you all about real estate.” I'm like, that's not what our audience is looking for.

Again, I scatter shot this stuff. So I've done podcasts and interviews on autism. I've done it on the business of writing. I've done it on my latest book that's coming out.

I do all of them, because it's one of those things, like I'm honestly not sure what's working and what's not working, but I do know that that brand and name recognition is important. So the more places I get, the better.

It's funny where I get feedback from. I hear from a lot of parents that heard about me on an autism interview that have then went out and bought one of my books. So it all kind of crosses over.

I think if you talk to anybody who works in advertising, for the most part, they can't tell you what's working and what's not working, so they tend to do everything, which is sort of old school.

In today's world, I mean, you've got Facebook and Amazon ads, you can monitor metrics and you can kind of track it that way, but that only works for those types of ads.

One of the things that's always stuck with me, you know, Patterson told me this story years ago. His very first book, it was called The Thomas Berryman Number, and like, literally, nobody bought that. I don't even think he's got a copy of it.

His second book was Along Came a Spider, and the sales on that were decent at the beginning, but they weren't where he expected them to be or where he wanted them to be. So he spent $500 of his own money and created a television spot.

If you're old enough, you might remember this. It was just a graphic, and it said, “Your wait for the next Silence of the Lambs is over,” and a tiny little spider crawled down from the corner of the screen, and then it morphed into Along Came a Spider and the cover of the book.

So that was 500 bucks, but that's what actually launched that book and caused it to become a mega bestseller. He's constantly doing that, even in today's world when we've got a book coming out.

We just had one called The Writer, it debuted at number two on the New York Times list. He approved every single ad, television spot, Facebook ad, Amazon ad, whatever. Every one of them crossed his desk and he approved each one of them. I try to do the same thing.

Joanna: Well, he came from marketing, didn't he? Advertising?JD: He did, yes. He actually wrote the Toys R Us theme song.

Joanna: I love this. I really respect him, obviously, as a writer, but also as a businessman. He was just doing something with Mr. Beast, right?

JD: Yes, he called me actually right after that meeting happened, and this was, geez, maybe about two months ago. He sounded as excited as a teenager. It was crazy. He's tried to explain this to me, and I honestly didn't know who Mr. Beast was until afterwards.

So that's the thing. Like, nobody expects him to do that book. Nobody expected him to write a book with Dolly Parton or Bill Clinton.

Joanna: Dolly Parton, after doing it with Bill Clinton.

JD: Yes, but that's what keeps him going.

Think of how that expanded his audience. Dolly Parton is huge on a worldwide basis. All of a sudden they're reading James Patterson thrillers because he wrote that book.

Joanna: This is the thing, right? I mean, everyone, even if people don't “like”, in inverted commas, James Patterson's books, and I'm sure there's people listening who are like, “Oh, I'd never read a James Patterson.” It doesn't matter, because he is in his 70s, he's still hustling, he's still writing, he's still doing author business.

I mean, that is just impressive. That, to me, is very inspirational. It's interesting, because I've read bits and bobs of his over the years, you know, a book here, a book there. I don't read every one of his books. It's hard to read every one of his books because there's so many of them.

I recently read Eruption, which he did with the late Michael Crichton estate. What was so funny was I picked it up because I've read every single Michael Crichton, and I imagine a lot of other people out there did the same thing.

So this collaboration and co-writing, which you're now doing as well, is a really interesting model.

Is it marketing, or is it just a way of writing to a different market segment?JD: Well, I think ultimately, he's using the books as marketing tools. Every one of them is a business card that's reaching out to a new segment of people. That's what I'm trying to do, too.

Joanna: The difference, I guess—and I mean, obviously, you build your name bigger and bigger every year, so I'm sure you'll be in a position to co-write with an ex-American president at some point.

I've co-written a couple of books, and I found it a very difficult process. In the kind of thing you're doing and what James Patterson's done, is there's a primary and there's a secondary, right? There's like a primary name and a secondary.

What he seems to be doing is also finding other primary brands, as such. Are you looking for other brands to collaborate with, rather than just authors who were kind of secondary? Do you know what I mean?

JD: I'm using every opportunity to expand my brand. So if I can work with somebody who's going to take me into a different place. I'd love to work with a science fiction author at this point, because I could take a science fiction book and turn it into a thriller, and all of a sudden we're capturing people from both of those audiences.

That's really what a lot of this is about. I keep going back to the “casting a net” thing, but that's what you've got to do, I think, in order to become one of those household names. It's not something that happens overnight. It's done gradually over time.

Joanna: Yes, and I like that perspective, because I feel like in the indie community, we're pretty obsessed with having direct ROI. Like we have to see the ROI on the ad. So a lot of indie authors don't do the bigger brand building because it's so hard to measure. So that's a really good perspective.

I realize that we're almost out of time, but I did want to ask you about Author Nation, because you and I were on the same thriller panel last year. You're back in 2025, along with James Patterson, who is keynoting. Now, you're very successful, so why come to Author Nation as a successful author who knows what he is doing?

What are the benefits for a more advanced author coming to Author Nation?JD: Well, I roped Jim into coming, so I'll give you the same pitch that I gave him. So I have gone to all the big conferences. I've been to ThrillerFest a bunch of times, I've been to Bouchercon, and my takeaway from a lot of those is, I literally had no more takeaways.

They were helpful for me for the first year or two, when I was first getting started, but after that, there was really no new information that I could utilize anymore.

They are very good at helping people get off that diving board with their debut novel. They're fantastic at promoting the big names that are out there. But they literally had no content for the rest of us who are basically in that muddy middle of trying to get from that debut novel to the household name status.

So when I went to Author Nation, I saw something a little different. I saw people not only marketing indie titles, but using a lot of the things that I feel the traditional markets could benefit from.

Those waters are getting very muddy at this point.

I don't really think there is indie and traditional anymore. I think everybody is somewhere in the middle, or should be somewhere in the middle.They're all stealing from each other. I think indie authors look at the traditional publishers and they take what's working. Traditional publishers are doing the exact same thing. They are looking very closely at the indie market and taking what is working there.

That's why you see all these big name titles all of a sudden on BookBub and these places that they didn't do a few years ago. They're utilizing whatever they see working on the indie market.

So I see Author Nation as basically the next version of conferences. I think, properly done, they can create the content that the rest of us need to get from A to Z. To fill in that void in between and teach us how to keep their career going for the long term.

Joanna: I also feel that. As you say, I mean, there is a lot of content at Author Nation. If you're listening and you haven't written the first book, or you have written a book and you're just starting, there's a lot for those people. Then as you say, there's also a lot for us. A lot of meetings too, right?

We don't necessarily go to all the sessions. We're there for the meetings.JD: I mean, again, it's comes down to contacts. There's plenty of people you're going to meet at Author Nation, and four or five years down the road, you may be able to help them, they may be able to help you, but all those contacts come into play.

Joanna: Yes, absolutely. So we'll be there, occasionally hanging out in the public spaces, although both of us struggle with a lot of people. Well, I feel like maybe everybody does at these things. There's just a load of introverts and probably a lot of autistic people all in the same room being scared of each other,

JD: Yes, but there's also alcohol. I force myself to get out there and talk. I won't stay in my hotel room as much as I want to. I try to get out on the floor and talk to as many people as I can.

Joanna: I agree. All right.

Where can people find you and your books online?JD: Easiest place to find me is at JDBarker.com. I'm on all the social medias at @JDBarker. My latest title is called Something I Keep Upstairs, which just released on May 13.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, JD. That was great.

JD: Thanks for having me.

The post Casting A Wider Net: Author Brand And The Writing Business With JD Barker first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How can you implement ‘See, Do, Repeat' in your writing and author business? How can you embrace optimism as a creative entrepreneur and move past fear of judgment to publish your book? Dr Rebecca White shares her journey and tips.

In the intro, Short form audio opportunities and tips [Self Publishing Advice]; Wiley's guidelines for AI usage; Collective licensing for UK authors [The Guardian]; Entrepreneurship and writing, I'm on The En Factor Podcast;

Plus, Successful Self-Publishing Fourth Edition on pre-order, and I’m on the El Camino de Santiago Pilgrim Podcast talking about my walk along the Portuguese coastal route.

Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Dr. Rebecca White is an award-winning entrepreneur, executive board member, professor, and the author of See, Do, Repeat: The Practice of Entrepreneurship. She's also the host of the En Factor Podcast.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Rebecca's entrepreneurial journey and background
• Actionable steps to embrace the entrepreneurial mindset
• The “See, Do, Repeat” framework
• Applying the “See, Do, Repeat” framework to author entrepreneurship
• The role of optimism in entrepreneurship
• Transitioning from academic writing to popular books
• Overcoming fear of judgement by peers

You can find Rebecca at DrRebeccaWhite.com.

Transcript of Interview with Dr. Rebecca WhiteJoanna: Dr. Rebecca White is an award-winning entrepreneur, executive board member, professor, and the author of See, Do, Repeat: The Practice of Entrepreneurship. She's also the host of the En Factor Podcast. So welcome to the show, Rebecca.

Rebecca: Thank you, Joanna. I am honored to be here. I love your podcast, and I'm excited. I am reading your book Pilgrimage, and I just love everything that you've done. So it's really great to be here and have this conversation today.

Joanna: Oh, well, thanks so much. So first up—

Tell us a bit more about you and what drives your interest in entrepreneurship.Rebecca: I grew up in this small town in West Virginia. I don't know if you've ever been there, but it's quite rural. I always had these dreams and interests of doing other things rather than being in a small town.

I had a wonderful mother. Her name was Betty White. So great name, maybe not the Betty White most people think of. She had an entrepreneurial mindset back before we even had the words to put with it, and so I learned about this whole mindset from her as a child.

It's really driven everything I've done. It's kind of like it grabbed me, and I had to hold on. So I've really applied an entrepreneurial mindset in everything that I've done, from being an educator to a book author to a podcaster to even a corporate board member.

You mentioned all those slashes in my career, I think that's part of being an entrepreneur as well, this whole idea that there's always something new and a new opportunity to explore. So it's really just been a part of my life, and everything that I've done, I think because I learned it from her.

Joanna: That's cool. When you said West Virginia, I just had that song playing, “Take Me Home, Country Road.”

Rebecca: Yes, everybody knows that.

Joanna: Yes, that's the only thing. I've never been there, but that's what it brought to mind, which was quite funny.

So you were in the small town and you had this mindset, but how did you get out of the small town and get into work? How did you make it out of there?

I know some people listening, it might just be a life situation they're trapped in, or a job. Many people are in a job, and they might want to be more entrepreneurial, but they didn't have the mindset that your mom gave you.

How did you get out of that small town? How can other people get out if they feel trapped?Rebecca: That's a really great question. For me, it was education, and I just kept going. My parents valued education. My mom was very curious, and she was way ahead of her time, the way she approached life and saw things.

She had her own business. She was a florist. When I graduated with my undergraduate degree, she invited me to come back and take over the business, and that's like the last thing I wanted to do. I had worked in that business all my years growing up.

It was great for her. It was a great opportunity for our family. It afforded my brother and I the opportunity to get an education. Once I left and went to college—and I didn't go that far away at first—but once I went to college, I just knew that I wasn't going to go back.

There wasn't a lot there, and fortunately, my parents didn't expect it. So for me, I was young, and so it was through taking my first job and then going back to school. There's all kinds of stories in there that I could share, but really—

It was just taking one step at a time and having parents that supported that. At a young age, I just had sort of a wanderlust, I guess. I felt like there were always opportunities out there that I wanted to check out and try.

I also got married in the process, later divorced. I went to graduate school, I got my masters, and then I got a job teaching with my masters and found that I did well with that. So I went back to get a doctorate, and after I got my doctorate, I accepted a teaching position in Cincinnati, Ohio.

I was actually educated in Virginia at Virginia Tech, and then went to Cincinnati, Ohio. By this time, I had two small children and I was divorced. It was quite a challenging time for me. I managed to write a dissertation with two small children as a single parent, it wasn't easy.

Then I took that job in Cincinnati and started building programs and really became part of a movement in entrepreneurship education. Actually, my PhD is not in entrepreneurship, but that's because they really didn't have that kind of degree back then.

So I got a PhD in strategic management, and took my first job. There weren't any entrepreneurship courses offered at that time. So I was very fortunate, I had a dean at the time that was very supportive and allowed me to pursue this interest in offering an entrepreneurship course.

We offered a course, and it was something the university had never offered, so I had to create it. I explored the field, the discipline, the few people that were out there doing this. I did my research and created this course.

Then we raised money. So just like any entrepreneurial adventure, we had to raise enough money to start a program. So I went through all the steps, really, of a startup to build an entrepreneurship program at this university in Cincinnati, Ohio.

In doing so, I really kind of launched my career as sort of the second tier pioneering group in entrepreneurship education. Since then, I've just had so many opportunities to work with programs and work with students around the world in this space of entrepreneurship education.

So really it was education that, for me—it's not for everybody—but for me, it was the way that I was able to get out and build this career.

Joanna: If you don't mind, you referred a few times to the past—

Can you tell people how old you are so that they get some sense of how long this period has been?Rebecca: Yes, I'm in my 60s now. So I've been teaching and doing this entrepreneurship gig for almost four decades. It's been a long time.

What I thought by now, Jo, would be that I would be retired, or at least close to retiring, but the opportunities just still come along, and they keep getting bigger, it seems like.

Joanna: Also, I wonder whether entrepreneurs ever retire!

Rebecca: I don't think so.

Joanna: No, exactly. You want to start something else, right? Let's get into the book.

What is the “See, Do, Repeat” framework, and why is it useful for authors to consider?Rebecca: Teaching all those years as an entrepreneur, I saw a lot of change in our field. So when I first started teaching, it was all about starting a business. In fact, in the earliest years, it was more about small business.

Everything was taking what we had studied in business school, which was primarily around corporate business, and applying it in a miniature way, if you will. It really didn't work, and so the field started to develop its own body of literature and research around entrepreneurship.

That direction was really interesting because although it started in this whole area of creating new companies and running small businesses, it really morphed, I would say, into a focus on the mindset of entrepreneurship and how it applies in almost virtually any context.

I started out my description of my background by just saying that I've applied it everywhere, and so that became really interesting to me. I've always been fascinated by the way people think and by the stories.

You mentioned my podcast, and it's why I love my podcast. I just love to ask people lots of questions and find out about them and the way they think.

So this whole book is really, I would say, 20 years of research that I had been doing trying to understand what this entrepreneurial mindset was. We talked about it a lot, but it didn't have a whole lot of definition. People always seemed to know it when they saw it, but they didn't really know exactly how to describe it.

Entrepreneurship education became much more than just starting a business. It's applying it in so many other contexts. We've had students come through that have been interested in starting not for profits. They've started churches.

They've developed new products that then they licensed. They didn't even start a company around them. I found I was always drawn to the creative students, and I think you and your audience would appreciate this, because I saw over the years that most creatives had to have some of these entrepreneurial mindset skills.

They were going to be in a position where they were taking advantage of opportunities, and they were going to have to raise money, or at least find a way to pursue their craft. That included maybe some marketing. It included maybe raising money from donors and investors.

So I became very interested very early on, for entrepreneurship and entrepreneurial mindset for students who are not studying business. So that's been a lot of the focus of why this book was written.

I spent a lot of years trying to understand an entrepreneurial mindset. So this book was really an effort to bring all this academic literature to a popular audience and share the idea of a mindset in a very, very simple and easy to remember and understand framework.

So that, “see, do, repeat,” it's based also in what we call competencies. A lot of fields, like nursing and healthcare, have used competencies for a long time to find a way to measure tasks that are challenging to define and measure.

So it's identifying three competencies of an entrepreneurial mindset. Over the years, these are the three competencies, and then associated with each of them are multiple skills that I found have been repeated among all entrepreneurs.

It's the ability to recognize opportunities, that's the “see” part. The willingness to take action that's “do.” Then the perseverance and resilience to execute past failure because failure is definitely a part of every success journey.

Along the way, the people who are not successful as entrepreneurs tend to get stopped. They may recognize an opportunity. Multiple times a day, I have people reaching out to me with, “I have an idea. What do you think?” The difference is, do you take action on that, and then do you keep going and execute past failure?

So there are a lot of things we could talk about with that, but that's the principles of the book. It's really to take all this academic research of an entrepreneurial mindset and make it something simple and something that people can apply.

Joanna: Can you give us a concrete example of the “See, Do, Repeat” in the author entrepreneur space?Rebecca: Sure, absolutely. I'll use my own example if that's okay. So what happened with me, I've been writing for a long time, academic writing, and it's a completely different animal. I've also been a writer for, you know, always.

I write for fun, and I write for therapy. I know you've talked about The Morning Pages by Julia Cameron. My mom gave me that book many years ago because she was an artist. So I've written for therapy. I love writing.

This particular book, I was approached by a pretty well-known book publisher in the academic world write books, not for textbooks, but for faculty. Those books are much more academic and they combine research. So I was approached by a book publisher to write a book on entrepreneurial mindset for that audience.

So that was pre-pandemic, and so I started exploring that. I had conversations with an editor that was assigned to me, and so we were getting started on that whole process when the pandemic happened. So my editor lost her job, and I was assigned to somebody else, and we didn't have a great fit.

So I stepped back from that, and I thought about it, and I said —

Am I really that interested in continuing to write for other academics? Because what I'm really interested in is how I can make this book different.So the opportunity started to emerge for me, and I started to recognize in my world that there was probably an opportunity out there for people to learn more about this. So I think for any book author, it's paying attention to the world around you.

I talk about this in my book, about how we recognize opportunities.

Really, curiosity is a big part of it, anybody who's curious, paying attention, and then connecting the dots. That's a big part of the creative process.

So for me, a lot of it was there were messages coming from outside that maybe I had the expertise and the credentials to do this. There were also messages coming to me from other people that I was working with, or people that I was surrounded with, or things that I read that led me to believe there was an opportunity to write for a different audience.

So that opportunity came. The taking action, that was a really tough one because I started down this path, like so many others, without a clue about what it would take to write a more popular press book. So there's a lot of lessons I learned there.

I had to overcome a lot of my own personal beliefs that I didn't have the skills to write a book that would be successful and popular.The more I learned about what it meant to get published by a traditional publisher, which was pretty much all I knew at that time, I just saw that it was going to be a monumental hurdle to overcome. So I just started doing my research and started taking action.

I could have stopped there. I could have gone back to writing what I was comfortable with or knew, but I didn't. I continued to persevere, and I had lots of failures along the way.

In fact, this book was first published by, I wouldn't say a traditional publisher, but an intermediary publisher, let's just say that. I don't want to say too much about them because it wasn't a great experience, but I learned a lot along that process.

While I don't necessarily think that publishing this book was a huge failure, it wasn't the success that I had hoped— or that it maybe could have been, and I had lots of failures along the way.

In fact, not getting paid royalties for a long time, and a lot of other things that just didn't work out.

Also, not understanding, quite frankly, that I had to really put a lot of effort into marketing. That was probably my biggest lack of understanding.I've never been an absolutely huge fan of social media, although I do more of it now, and I have people that help me. Students are great with that, by the way. I made a lot of mistakes along the way, and I feel like the “See, Do, Repeat,” it's played out in everything that I've done.

I think for any book author—back to your original question, long answer—it's really about once you see that opportunity, putting it out there and testing it, and then educating yourself as to what it takes to make it happen, and then continuing to persevere.

The repeat of the “See, Do, Repeat” model is sometimes the hardest one for people to understand because I am not suggesting that you never change course, I'm not suggesting that every idea that you have is truly an opportunity that should be acted on.

So it's not that, but it's about really recognizing that if you remain optimistic and you recognize the problem that you're trying to solve, and you stay focused on that problem rather than the solution you had in mind, you will come to an outcome that will be favorable.

Out of the process, along the same time that I was writing this book, I was launching my podcast. What happened was —

My podcast really became research for my book. I was able to take my research out of my office, so to speak, and make it available so everybody could hear the stories.

So as I was writing the book, I was able to use stories that I was capturing as I was doing the podcast. So it all came together.

I never could have envisioned that exactly. I knew where I was headed. I knew what the opportunity was that I thought was there, but I had to stay focused on the problem I was trying to solve. So that got me to where I needed to be.

Joanna: Yes, and I think what's also interesting is some people—like you said you had a difficult time with the publisher that you had originally used—some people would have just given up on that book and maybe written another book or something.

You also clearly chose to keep focused on making this book more of a success. So presumably—

You went and got the rights back, and then got on with the publishing process yourself.Rebecca: Yes. In fact, I'm an indie publisher now, and in large part thanks to you and what I've learned from you. So I published this book in '21, and I still believe in it. I still believe it's an important book, and I intend to continue to market it and sell it and use it in the model, because I still believe in it.

I've gotten a lot of positive feedback about it, but I also decided that I wanted to have more control over it. I needed to walk the talk what I was teaching my students to do.

So I was Googling around, trying to find out how to get back the rights to my book, and I came across a podcast that you did a couple of years ago. I know you've got about 800 now, so it was in the 600s.

Joanna: This one would have been with Katlyn Duncan, probably. She's got a book called Take Back Your Book.

[Check out the interview with Katlyn here.]

Rebecca: I think that's probably right. It was a few years back, and I listened to that. Interestingly, I have a husband who's an attorney, but in spite of that, this is a very specific kind of thing I wanted to do.

Getting out there and hearing your podcast was the beginning point for me. Then I started listening to more of them, and I still enjoy them.

I have really embraced this idea of being an indie publisher, and I love it.I have other books I want to write. In fact, some fiction books I'd love to write, but that's a whole other story.

Joanna: I love that. I think what you've done there is great. A lot of nonfiction authors who have—like, this is your whole career. This book is one of the magnum opus style books. It really does encapsulate a lot of your body of work.

So, of course, you're going to keep promoting that, keep marketing that, keep doing other work around it. I think that's really important to say, in the indie community, we often focus on having more books, writing more books, putting more out there, which is one way.

There's also a lot of people, especially in nonfiction, who have one sort of key book, even if you're going to write more. Then that's the sort of focus of their talks and their career side. So I think that's completely valid.

You did mention the word optimistic, which I wanted to come back on, because you have a whole chapter on optimism. I'm, by default, an optimist. I'm also a techno-optimist. I think humans will figure things out.

As we talk now, it's April 2025, and we're not going to get into politics and the world, but it is an uncertain time. With AI and all of this, authors can feel not quite so optimistic.

How can we choose optimism and foster optimism?Rebecca: I love that question. I saw this modeled in my mom and my grandfather, in particular. I'm like you, I'm optimistic as well. I think every entrepreneur has to have some level of optimism because otherwise, why would you do it?

If you don't believe that you have agency, if you don't believe that you have some control over your future, if you don't have some hope for the future, why would you do all the work that's required? So it's really, in my mind, optimism is about creating your own destiny through choice and action.

That, to me, is a big part of what an entrepreneurial mindset is all about. Optimism also sees opportunities instead of difficulties. I'll give you an example.

When the pandemic caused us to have to go online with all of our classes and teaching, we had some graduate students at our university that were quite upset over the experience.

I understand everybody was upset. It was a very scary time, and you're right, we still have a lot of uncertainty. I did a little video for them to talk to them about how that period in time was very special, and it was a unique opportunity for them to find opportunity.

It resonated with some of them. Some of them continued to be angry about the experience because, quite honestly, we have a beautiful facility on our campus for entrepreneurship, and they had signed up to be able to take advantage of all the events and programs and things that we run in person there.

The idea that they weren't going to get that, they felt cheated, and I understand that. We did our best to create alternative opportunities for them, but at the end of the day, as we look back on it, I think we can all think of many examples of things that came out of the pandemic which were positive outcomes and opportunities.

Certainly many were not, but that optimism, I think, is something that is critical for entrepreneurs. I talk about it in my book, there are dangers of being overly optimistic, and there's plenty of research that shown that, especially if you're overly optimistic about your financial situation, that can be kind of dangerous.

Most psychologists agree that optimism can be learned.So it's not a static thing. It really has to do with the way you look at the world. Whether you personalize things, or whether you recognize that everything in the world is not about you. The pervasiveness of things and the permanence of things.

So you can really, if you feel like maybe, anybody that's listening, that you would like to be more optimistic, there is something called learned optimism. There's books out there and plenty of things that you can do.

I think it's critical to have that trust in ourselves. What's the alternative, really, Jo? Do we just stop and sit and complain? You know, that's not much fun.

Joanna: No. I think that is a really good point. I'm sure there is a default level of optimism that people have, and I think obviously you and I have that. As you said, it can be learned.

I think one of the things I've discovered for myself as well. In the beginning of the pandemic—and in fact, I look at my photos, I took a lot of screenshots—in the first few months in 2020, from the January, because I was on Twitter looking at what was coming out of China and then Italy and all of this.

I took so many screenshots, evidence of my doom scrolling. I thought I was going to write a book on a pandemic, as many of us did at that time. Then I obviously realized that this wasn't helpful.

My photos—I take a lot of photos and screenshots and stuff—but my photos change to pictures of flowers and the outdoors and walking a lot more, and I've avoided the TV news.

I haven't watched the news on TV for over a decade, probably more like two decades.I do read the news on some apps on my phone, but I don't watch TV news. This is a challenge for people listening, like one of the things I think makes me more optimistic is just curating what goes into my head and being quite careful.

Some people think that's denying what's going on, but I'm very aware of what's going on. I just don't do it in an overly emotional way.

What are some of the practices you think foster optimism?Rebecca: Well, I love that. Making that choice. I mentioned that it's really about choice and agency. There's a lot we can't control. That's just the bottom line, I've learned that, but there's a lot we can control. That's exactly what you're talking about. You can control how much of that you let into your head.

It can be hard. I'm married to a news junkie, and it can be really hard because I want to know what's going on in the world, and I'm like you, I tend to read it more than watch it on TV.

I also choose, for example, during the pandemic, I don't know if it was the same in the UK, but for a while, every night, there would be this thing on the news about how many people had died that day. I'm like, I am not going to bed thinking about how many people died today.

I mean, there are plenty of people that, sadly, die every day, no matter what's going on in the world.

Joanna: It's life. People die.

Rebecca: That's right, that's right. There were people being born as well. So I made that choice. It sounds really weird, but when I made the choice to stop all of that, I remember I had this really vivid dream, and it was in color. I mean, this is going to sound so weird, but I had this dream that I was flying.

It was like I was leaving all that behind, and I was going to accept that whatever happened happened, and I could control what I could control, and that was it. I would suggest that it's about taking control of what we let into our head, just like you said. Choice and action and agency.

Recognizing that there's only so many things we could control, but within what we can control, we have so much power.

Joanna: Yes, in what we can control. Yes—

If I get too miserable, I will get off the computer, off my phone, and go for a walk in nature.Rebecca: Nature is great, yes.

Joanna: It just gives you that perspective. I was thinking, because at the moment here in Bath, the sun is out, spring is here, things are growing again. Things in my garden that I seriously thought were dead have started sprouting and growing leaves. It's another one of those, you know, this too shall pass, and the seasons will turn again.

That just makes me feel more positive and happy. It's been a very long winter here. I imagine some people listening, it might still be winter by the time they hear this. I feel like that also makes me more optimistic is seeing how nature recovers every year. Things always get better.

Rebecca: Absolutely. I think I mentioned it in the book too, gratitude. That was something that my mom always believed in. I think gratitude, and just joy. I have to say, I always enjoy your podcast because you are always so joyful in the way you communicate with people. I just think that is very special.

We have that choice to be kind and to bring joy to what we're doing. It's so amazing when I meet people that I know are struggling, but they're still able to be kind and thoughtful to the people around them.

Taking, I guess, that pressure off by not focusing so much on ourselves and what's missing, but opening up to the fact that there are other people in the world, and we can bring joy to them and ourselves at the same time.

Joanna: Well, coming back to the book, because you did say earlier that you've written a lot of academic writing as part of your job, and that this was your sort of trying to write something more popular. What I would say is that it is incredibly well researched and has a lot of references.

It is, I would say, more of a crossover to academic books. It's certainly not a pop sort of book where there's no references at all or maybe only a couple in the appendix. For example, the kind of things I've written. I wondered what your thoughts were.

So there are people listening who will be academic writers, and they will struggle with, I think, a lot of the relaxing that has to go into writing a more popular book.

Any tips for those who want to cross over from academic writing to more popular books?Rebecca: Yes, thank you for that question. That was a struggle for me, and a lot of it has to do with how you're trained, I guess, or prepped for whatever the opportunity is that you're going to pursue with your writing.

For me, I had been living in this world where everything I had written, before it was published, it was going to be peer reviewed, and it was going to be evaluated for accuracy and legitimacy and reliability and credibility. So the idea that I could just write something, I could say it was totally, totally different for me.

I think you're right. I mean, I worried a little bit about whether this book would be readable, but I felt like I really changed my writing style a lot.

Joanna: It's definitely readable, just to be clear for everyone. This is a popular book, but I can also sense the amount of research, and you're very meticulous about that. So I think you have managed both, but it is hard, I know.

Rebecca: Well, thank you for that. I really appreciate that. That's a very high form of compliment for me because I think that fits with who I am and my background.

It was challenging because I wanted it to be readable. The name, as an example, coming up with that “See, Do, Repeat” name, I practiced what I write about in the book.

One of the techniques that I recommend to help get your creative juices flowing is to do something that takes your mind completely off of everything that you're doing. It's called the incubation period.

So I work out a lot, and I've been a runner. So I was working with my editor and publisher on the name, and we had gone through all these names. I went out for a run one day, and I was just really pushing it. I had all this research in my head that we'd been doing, and all of a sudden it came to me.

I'm like, what word—and I'm fascinated by words, I love words, but I guess every author is—but I said, what words would convey this in the simplest form? So that's how I came up with “See, Do, Repeat.”

The whole book is really kind of taking my academic writing and reframing it and trying to think about it from a very practical, applied way. I think one of the things that helped me most was to really focus on storytelling.

It was easy, again, because I was in the midst of my podcast. Although not every story comes from my podcast, most of them come from entrepreneurs that I have interviewed, either in my classroom or for my podcast, or that I've spent time working with.

I think that's how I made that transition. I was able to reference books and other research that supported what I was talking about, and I tried to keep that, but only on a smaller scale, and then supplement that with stories. I thought that would make it more relatable.

Joanna: Did you have any fear of judgment by other academics?Just that feeling, I imagine, would have been quite different doing this book compared to writing an academic paper.

Rebecca: Oh, my gosh. Yes. Did I have fear of judgment? Yes, on every count. That's probably been the thing, if I were going to advise anybody about writing, it's that you got to get over that. I had that very early on with my academic writing. I would hold on to things far too long.

I think this book would have been published many years earlier if I had allowed myself to get beyond that. So, yes. I mean, I had to let go of that.

I went to a conference, it was at Notre Dame University, and I had just published this book. I was among many of my peers that I had worked with for many years, and it was very scary to have my book there.

What's interesting, for that conference now, ever since that—you know, I had books there, and I actually had a little table and sold some of them, not many, quite honestly—but ever since that time, the organizers of the conference have been buying my book for everybody that attends.

Even though it scared me to death to put it out there in front of my colleagues, they're sharing it with other educators.

So it's not the audience I initially intended it for, but I'm grateful that they're doing that. I just had to overcome that fear of judgment, which it's always out there if you're doing something creative.

Joanna: Yes, absolutely. So we are out of time.

Where can people find you, and your book, and everything you do online?Rebecca: Oh, well, thank you for asking that, Joanna. I just have to say I'm working on a new book now. It's called Choose Yourself, and it's tied to the very last chapter of my book. I'm pre-selling that book on my website in a very different way, and I'm sharing parts of it as I go through writing it.

So it's really a model to help people take that “do” step. So if you could visit my website, it's DrRebeccaWhite.com. I'm also available on LinkedIn, same handle, @DrRebeccaWhite. Then on Instagram and on Facebook, @DrRebeccaJWhite. So I'd love for you to visit me there.

I have a new community which I've started, and I'm writing this new book. Again, it's all to help anyone who wants to do something entrepreneurial or make a big transition in their life, pursue a passion. I'd love to help.

That's kind of my legacy, to help as many people as I can have the joy of an entrepreneurial mindset as they go through their lives.

Joanna: Just also mention your podcast.

Rebecca: Oh, yes, my podcast. I'm sorry. It's the En Factor Podcast, and you'll be happy to know that I have the infamous Joanna Penn coming on the podcast. I think by the time this is aired, it should be available. It's called the En Factor. It's all about entrepreneurial mindset. So yes, please check out the En Factor Podcast and all my other resources on my website.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Rebecca. That was great.

Rebecca: Joanna, thank you. It's been an honor and such a pleasure.

The post See, Do, Repeat: The Practice of Creative Entrepreneurship With Dr Rebecca White first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How can you shift your writing and publishing process to focus on YouTube and podcasting as a primary audiobook focus? How can you use AI tools to help you create, publish, and translate your books? Derek Slaton goes into his indie author process.

Inspired by Derek, you can now find my audiobooks on YouTube: Books for Authors on YouTube @thecreativepenn; and my fiction, short stories, and memoir on YouTube @jfpennauthor.

In the intro, Spotify has expanded audiobooks into Germany, Austria. Switzerland and Liechtenstein, and Publisher Rocket has introduced more country stores;
Second Edition of The Business of Being a Writer by Jane Friedman;
T. Thorn Coyle on the MidList Indie Author [Wish I’d Known Then Podcast];
What if AI replaces me? [Claire Taylor What If Podcast]; plus, my Successful Self-Publishing Fourth Edition is underway, coming June/July!

This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Derek Slaton is the author of the Dead America epic zombie series, with more than 100 books in the main series and many more spin-off stories. I heard Derek on the Brave New Bookshelf Podcast and wanted to ask him some more questions.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Zombie book tropes and settings
• Utilizing AI audio tools to efficiently output audiobooks
• Finding keywords and creating thumbnails for YouTube audiobooks
• Manualling adding ads to monetize your audiobook on YouTube
• YouTube audience vs. Audible audience
• Publishing audiobooks on podcast platforms
• Using AI tools to overcome the cost barrier of production

You can find Derek at his YouTube Channel @DerekSlatonHorrorAuthor.

Transcript of Interview with Derek SlatonJoanna: Derek Slaton is the author of the Dead America epic zombie series, with more than 100 books in the main series and many more spin-off stories. So welcome to the show, Derek.

Derek: Thank you. It's good to be here.

Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you, but first up—

Tell us a bit more about you, and how you got into writing, and why you love zombies so much.Derek: So I started writing many, many years ago. When I was in high school, I rented Dawn of the Dead on VHS, and the movie itself didn't really scare me, but it was when I went to bed that night and started thinking about, “Hey, what would I do in a zombie apocalypse?” It was like a light switch was flipped.

So it's like I had to start writing down what I would do, and over the years and decades, it just sort of grew from there.

I used to be a photographer. I was a concert photographer traveling the country with bands, and then I moved over to commercial real estate. When I was on the road, I would have my laptop so I would just write.

Over about four or five years, I built it up enough that I could go full time. I went full time with it in January of '24, so I'm a little more than a year into it.

Joanna: Brilliant. Then I want to come back on the zombie books, the tropes of the zombie books. So I read some zombie, like Jonathan Maberry. I'm sure you've read some of Jonathan Mabery's stuff, but he says, “It's not about the monsters, it's about the people who fight the monsters.”

I wondered if you could talk about the tropes of zombie books and why you just have an unending number of zombie stories in you?!Derek: The great thing about the zombie apocalypse, is that it's happening to everybody everywhere, and everybody has their own story. So there's a million stories that can be told in the zombie apocalypse.

It's not just the strong military type fighting. It's the waitress having to deal with zombified customers, and the high school students having to deal with classmates, and just on down the line.

There's just so many different scenarios. I'm three and a half million words into my series, and I still have another hundred stories plotted out that aren't really repeats of what I've already done.

Joanna: So you're writing about America, but obviously it's very, very big.

Are you writing about places you've been to or you know yourself?Or are you putting in different places? Because place makes a difference, doesn't it? Like it's different whether you're in the Florida Everglades versus up in the mountains?

Derek: It's a combination. I have been all over, but a lot of the places I haven't been, Google Maps of all things, has really helped me out. I'll look at the town, and then I'll drop myself into street view and just kind of walk around the area and see what my characters would be seeing and write it from that perspective.

Also it comes directly from places I've been. I had to make the drive from El Paso back to San Antonio, which is about nine straight hours of driving through nothing. That spawned the idea for the “El Paso: Creeping Death” series, just a million zombies marching towards them.

So it's been a nice mixture of both, and just about every single story has been set in America. I have done one story set in London that's only on YouTube at the moment, but it'll eventually be released in print. Something I want to explore more as the series goes on is how it's impacting other countries around the world.

Joanna: Then I guess I have a question about worldbuilding because with that many words, I mean, I barely remember what I was writing last week.

Do you have a world document where you keep all the rules of your world, all the characters, or is it just out of control?Derek: It's a combination. I have the rules for my zombie universe, how the zombies are formed, what they do, their timeline and all that. Thankfully, I mean, it's very simple. So if I drop in on a story a week into it, I know how the zombies are, so I'm able to just jump right into it.

I have a have a story bible for the main series, but all of these side stories that are mostly one-offs, I don't really worry about as much because half the time nobody lives through them, anyway.

Joanna: The benefits of horror! I think that's really interesting because when I was thinking about your different places—

People in your position sometimes open up their world to other people to write in. Is that something you're thinking about?Derek: No, just because I have so many stories that are in the pipeline, and just have stories I want to tell. I produce them so fast, I mean, I'm releasing a story of a week.

Even if I had somebody else writing stories, I really wouldn't have a place in the schedule to release them. An hour and a half to three hour story every week is, I think, about as much as my fans can handle.

Joanna: So let's go into your process then. So you said a story a week for an hour and a half, which is funny because most people talk in terms of word count, but you talk in terms of time.

Tell us about your story process for creation and publishing.Derek: So it really changed about a year and a half ago, when I started focusing more on YouTube. I changed how I write because it used to just be free flowing, the word count's the word count, the chapters are however long they need to be.

With YouTube being ad-based, I had to change to almost a television mindset of, okay, I need a break every 12 to 15 minutes, which turns out to be about 2000 words.

So I started writing 2000-word chapters, which really, really helped with the speed of the writing because I knew the beginning and end of each chapter. So if I was short on the word count, now I can go back and just add a little bit of banter, then bam, we're there.

As far as the week to week process goes, half the time I'll know what I'm writing the next week on Friday, so I'll plot it out. Sometimes I'll have just a great idea for a story on Sunday night and completely change track and wake up Monday and just dive right in and see where it goes.

Generally speaking, I'll spend two to three days writing out the story, refining it a little bit, and then going straight into the audio, which is where I do the final edit. I'll edit it as I'm producing the audio. So at the end of the day, I'll do the video, upload it to YouTube, and move on to the next one.

Joanna: Okay, well, we have to get into that in more detail. So I heard you on the Brave New Bookshelf podcast, and you really inspired me about YouTube.

For people who might not understand the AI audio piece, how are you doing those audiobooks so quickly?Derek: I use a software called PlayHT. It's pretty much the direct rival with Eleven Labs, which is the big AI audio. The biggest difference is that PlayHT offers an unlimited plan. If you're producing as much audio as I am, that's vital, mainly because I need to keep a roof over my head.

I'll produce it chapter by chapter. So I'll paste it into their studio thing, render it, and then listen to it, then make whatever changes I need to make because you can re-render by line. So if I don't like the inflection, I can change a word. It's just quick click, and 30 seconds later that has a new audio generation.

Once I have the finished audio, because I export it by chapter, I'll pull it over in the Final Cut Pro. I'll drop in motion background, so I know where the chapter breaks are when I'm putting it in the ads and YouTube, and export it. Then it's just straight to YouTube and on the schedule.

Joanna: Okay, so a few questions there. For people who haven't done audio with AI—I know what you mean by make some changes—but what are some of the most common issues that you found with using AI voices. I think we're calling it “producing” now.

When you produce the audio, are you having to change specific things regularly? Or is it quite a quick process?Derek: Honestly, it's gotten better as time goes along. I just produced eight chapters this morning, so it was a full hour and a half book. Nine times out of ten when I have to redo a line, it's a glitch in the software or it mispronounces a name. Other than that, the instances are few and far between.

So it took me three hours to produce an hour and a half worth of audio content today. So it goes really quickly.

Joanna: Well, that's good, though, because that's still twice as long. I think some people think you just upload the file and you hit output and that's it. Like yourself, I also listen to the audio as I go through, so that is an important part of the process.

So let's say it's this hour and a half book. You then upload it to YouTube. I've been trying to model you, although my channel has lots of different things on it. So when I upload it to YouTube, I've got a description field, I've got the title field, I've got a thumbnail, I've got some other things.

What are the most important things that you need to put into those YouTube fields?Derek: I mean, really the most important thing are the keywords for people to search and just having a thumbnail that grabs people's attention.

This went back to the winter of December of 2023 when I was switching over to AI audio, I decided to throw up an AI thumbnail, just a random zombie scene.

I put it up there in place of my book cover, and my views doubled overnight. So just having that dynamic thumbnail is bigger than really anything else because that's the first thing people see.

They don't look at your title, they don't look at your description, if they don't click on the thumbnail. If they don't click on the thumbnail, they're never going to see anything else.

Joanna: That is a really good point. I put up my Mapwalker series, my Mapwalker trilogy, which is three books. I did actually make character thumbnails and I put them up, but because the rest of my channel isn't the same, they just look really weird. So I've replaced them with the book covers again. Now your channel, if people go to it— Just tell people where your YouTube channel is.

Derek: Just type in my name in the YouTube search. It’s Derek Slaton. It's the first channel that pops up. It's just “Derek Slaton Horror Book Author” or something along those lines. Just below the channel will be about 40 different zombie story thumbnails you can click on.

Joanna: They're all very consistent. I think that's what's interesting about your channel, it really is super consistent. So I feel like there's two different authors who are listening—well, more than that—but people like me who've had a YouTube channel for ages, and it's full of a lot of different stuff.

Then people who want to do something like you, where it's something very consistent in look and feel. So I feel like your thumbnails are clear, your genre is clear, and you've done all the things that you're meant to do, which is fantastic. You did mention keywords there—

Are you using any specific tool to find the keywords specifically for YouTube?Derek: Yes, I subscribe to something called TubeBuddy, which is all one word. It's actually integrated with YouTube, they're an official partner.

It'll analyze your thumbnail. It'll provide keywords for your type of video. It'll help you pick out shorts, and a whole host of other things. For $3 a month, it's worth every penny.

Joanna: I'm definitely going to get that. That's very helpful. Then you also mentioned putting ad breaks on. So my fiction channel at JF Penn Author is not monetized. As we record this, I'm desperately trying to get it there.

My Creative Penn channel is monetized, and I just click the box that says “yes to ads,” and I've never done anything manually.

What's the difference between just letting it do its own thing and doing it manually?Derek: It is very important to you and anybody who is listening, make sure you manually put in ads where you want them, and to turn off automated ad placement.

Especially now, because they are updating their system to automatically analyze your video and put ads where they think it should go.

Especially if you're using AI audio because there will be occasional pauses in there between lines, and YouTube will read that as, “Oh, that's a natural break. Let's throw an ad in there.”

I checked it on one of my videos, and it went from eight ads that I had placed to about 75. That's not going to work.

Joanna: Okay, that's a lot. Okay, so that's something to do for that longer form content. Okay, so in that one and a half hour book—coming back to this one that you've done today—you'd expect to have seven ad breaks in that?

Derek: Yes, this book was eight chapters, and I do an ad between every chapter and one at the end. So it'd be eight ads altogether.

Joanna: Okay. Obviously, this is hard to know, but—

Approximately how much revenue do you expect to make for that kind of length book?Derek: I mean, generally speaking, you make your most money in the first two to three weeks because that's when it's popular, and that's when you get the most views.

The way I view a video being a success, an hour and a half video, is if it makes $100 and gets an extra 25 to 35 subscribers in that first week. That's about where it typically falls. I mean, I know $100 for a video doesn't sound like a lot, but it's just in that initial week, and then it continues making money essentially forever.

Having that fresh content bringing in new subscribers, new viewers to the channel, they'll click on the playlist like, “Oh, there's 350 hours of stuff here. Let's go listen to older stories.”

So after a while, it just snowballs. So just having that fresh baseline, $100 and 25 to 35 subscribers in a week, that's what I deem to be a success.

Joanna: So is there anything else you do? So you do the TubeBuddy, but—

Do you do any other form of marketing for the channel? Do you do paid ads or anything else?Derek: I do absolutely no advertising, period. Everything I have across every platform is just natural growth. I have done ads in the past. I stopped in January of last year because I wanted to try it out to see how it would go.

I was releasing weekly content across everywhere, Kindle, podcasting, YouTube. With just that constant stream of fresh content, it's like, okay, I know because I write in a niche, I have a limited amount of fans that are out there.

Sooner or later, if I keep putting content out there, they're going to discover me naturally.I was at a point financially where it's like, okay, I'm well above where I need to be to be comfortable. So rather than focusing hours upon hours each week on trying to tweak ads and spend a bunch on that, I'm just like, I'm just going to let it build naturally.

So far, I mean, it's worked great. Last year was my most profitable year, and I didn't spend a dime on advertising.

Joanna: That's why I got excited when I heard you on the Brave New Bookshelf, and people definitely have a listen to that too. It covers a slightly different angle to this episode.

I've always been a fan of content marketing, always. It's how I've built my business. This is another form of content marketing, but it's also revenue, because people can listen for free.

Obviously, I've heard it before, and people listening are like, okay, but indies have been talking about putting audiobooks on YouTube for years. So why now?

I was thinking about this, why I was so resistant to it, and I think it's that I thought that YouTube audiobooks would cannibalize my audiobook revenue elsewhere. So what do you think about that?

Is it just an entirely different audience? Or do you also put your stuff elsewhere?

Derek: I mean, honestly, it's a completely different audience. Because I switched over to AI a year and a half ago, I haven't released anything on Audible or Findaway Voices because for the longest time, they haven't accepted anything but their own AI voices.

So, I mean, my Audible sales were kind of flat lined before I made the jump to YouTube, and they've remained at that level ever since.

What I'm finding is the people who buy audiobooks are one audience, the people who listen on YouTube is a completely different audience, and the people who listen to audiobooks via podcasts are yet another completely different audience.

Joanna: Yes, after hearing you, I was like, of course they're a different audience. I mean, even with my husband, my husband does YouTube, and I don't watch YouTube myself. Yet, he also watches videos.

He doesn't listen to audiobooks on YouTube, but I know other people who do. So I was like, this is crazy. What was stopping me?

So if people listening are feeling like nothing's happening — or I will say, so my channel, JFPennAuthor, is not monetized. So right now, lots of people are listening to the audiobooks, and I am not getting paid.

Any tips for people who want to get into that monetized bracket?Derek: Honestly, just have consistent uploads. It'll keep you in the algorithm, and it feeds back on itself.

Recently, I think maybe within the last year, YouTube changed how they promote their videos, what they deem to be a good thing to promote. It went from number of views to how long people listen, and more importantly, how long your subscribers listen.

So last week, my story was three hours long, and my average listen time was right at about an hour, which fed back to it being promoted to new people. So just having those long stories that your fans will listen to.

One thing that helps me is I release my stories every week at the same time. Noon Eastern Time on Saturdays. So within the first hour, I have 400 or 500 people tuning in, and it boosts the algorithm.

Joanna: Which is great. You've become a habit. I mean, this show is a habit for people. It goes out at 7:30am UK time on a Monday, and the same thing happens. So I completely get the habit.

It's just not something I can see happening for my fiction at the moment. Although, it's so funny, because you've definitely inspired me around thinking about all this stuff.

I also wanted to ask you about the podcast thing because, again, I have two podcasts. They're mainly interviews, solo shows, that kind of thing. They are not fiction or audiobooks.

Tell us about how you do audiobooks for the fiction.Derek: It's really the same thing that I'm doing on YouTube, only just in pure audio form. So there's no video attached.

I just take an mp3 file of the audiobook, and because I write in novella format, most of the episodes are an hour and a half, two hours long. That seems to be the perfect length for a podcast, so I just release a book as an episode.

I tried it on a whim, and within a month, I was monetized. It's grown over the last year and a half now, and it's grown to the point where, financially, it's just a slight step down from what I'm making on YouTube. So it's just another revenue stream for the same content that I already have.

Joanna: What service are you using for that?

Derek: I use a company called RedCircle. They're a podcast distributor. They distribute to Spotify and all these other places. What's great about them is that they have a sales team that will go out and find the ads that will populate within your podcast.

So just like YouTube, I go in, I set where I want the ads to go, and whenever somebody downloads it, if they download it for later, the ads are already inserted into the podcast. So I get credit for all those.

Joanna: Is it one podcast feed with all the stories on it? Or is it a separate feed per book?Derek: It's all one podcast feed. So there's just a new story every week.

Joanna: Okay, right. So that is also called Derek Slaton, is it? Or is it called like Dead America, or something?

Derek: It's called Dead America.

Joanna: Okay, so it's called Dead America. So let's take my Mapwalker trilogy, so it's about 20 hours of audio in total, across three books. I would make that a podcast feed for that series, for example?

Derek: Right. You could break it up into two hour chunks or hour-long stories, however you want to do it, and just have them as weekly releases. Let it build up. The great thing is, once it's out there, once it's monetized, people will come across it, listen to it, and more income.

Joanna: Okay, and can you schedule them? So if I did that, let's say I split them into two hour chunks or whatever—

Can I schedule them all at once?So it's almost like a piece of work to upload all the files, schedule it, do the ad breaks, and then I just let it go.

Derek: Absolutely. I mean, I have the next three months' worth of podcasts already scheduled. So I sit down one day a quarter and just upload 20 – 30 books to it, and place the ads, and let the auto scheduler do its thing.

Joanna: That is cool. Again, it's so funny the kind of blocks we have in our minds. Of course, again, I'm very aware of fiction podcasting. I just didn't think about that from the case of putting an audiobook up.

I always feel like fiction podcasts have multi-cast and they're very full of actors and pro narrators and stuff like that. So I guess we should tackle that.

Are you getting any kickback around the use of AI?Derek: When I started doing AI on YouTube, I had the initial string of protest. I was very open and honest with them, with my fans. Like, here's why I'm using AI, because if I use humans, I could release a story every three to four months. Using AI, I can keep doing it weekly. Almost immediately, everybody bought in.

I've had a fraction of that level of kickback on podcasting, but I was honest with them, responded to their comments with what I just said, and for the most part, it's been smooth sailing.

I even released two shorts back to back. One was human narrated, one was AI-narrated. Despite having the negative AI comments on the AI episode, I actually had 20% more views on the AI episode.

Joanna: Are you using different voices?So do you use a variety of men and women and accents and stuff, or do you just use one narrator?

Derek: I have one narrator for all of them. The only time I changed narrator with the AI was when I did the story in London. I used a narrator with a British accent, just because it felt right.

I played around with doing multiple voices, and even polled my subscribers on YouTube. In about a three to one margin, people were like, no, we like the one voice.

People care more about the story than having multiple voices talking to them.Joanna: Yes, and this is another thing.

To me, when I listen to audiobooks, I want the content. It's not about the voice. In fact, I'd rather the voice disappeared. I think the voice disappearing is when people get used to the voice, so that, I think, is what your listeners are saying, which is that we're after the story.

The fact that they're listening to it rather than reading it doesn't make any difference.

You're also publishing those as ebooks—on Kindle only, or elsewhere?Derek: Just Kindle. I'm in Kindle Unlimited because with the size of my series, nobody's going to buy all the books.

Joanna: Do you use AI covers as well?

Derek: Yes, I started using AI covers with releases that started coming out like last summer. Mostly, they've been well received.

Joanna: I've been using a lot of AI imagery for the last couple of years. Again, a lot of people listening are just scared. You know, when you upload a book to Kindle, you have to click the box that says, “How did you use AI?” I'm like, it's not a problem. You just click the box and you say you're using it.

Do you have any issues at all about using any of the AI stuff?

Derek: Oh, no.

It's been life changing for me. That was a big reason why I was able to go full time last year, just because it cut my costs down by about 99%.Joanna: I love that. I love that. This is, again, why I encourage people to listen to the Brave New Bookshelf podcast, in general, because I think everyone who goes on that show is also AI positive, as you are. They find it just amplifies their creativity. You're a story machine. It's incredible.

Derek: One of the big things anti-AI people say is like, “oh, it's killing creativity,” and it's actually the opposite, at least it has been for me. If I wanted to do a new story, a new plot line, do anything before AI, I would have had to have risked thousands of dollars for the editing, the audio, and advertising for it.

With AI, I essentially have no cost barriers. So I can write whatever I want without fear, without worrying about, okay, if this fails, I'm going to lose thousands of dollars.

With having a built in audience, as long as it's in the horror/sci-fi/action genre, I know I'm going to make money. It might not be a lot of money, but I know I'm going to make money and not lose money.

It has really opened up creativity and allowed me to tell stories I otherwise wouldn't have been able to tell.Joanna: I totally agree. It's such a spark for me when I have a creative session with AI. If I'm just thinking about a new book—like yesterday I was thinking about something—and I just get on Chat or on Claude, and I'm going backwards and forwards, and it's sparking ideas.

Like you, I feel like it makes me more creative, and it just gives me bigger horizons for what's possible.

Derek: Absolutely, and especially with Claude with the new 3.7 Projects, I can upload one of my previous stories, and it's like, “This is how I want the story to sound. This is what I want you to emulate,” and I can go back and forth with it.

It's like having a writing partner, basically. It's speeding up my process. I bounce ideas off of it and stuff. It's like talking to myself, but a more intelligent version.

Joanna: Exactly. I also feel like the word “co-writing” is becoming more and more true, because it is a sort of true collaborative creative process. Although I've worked with co-writers before, and I'm actually a terrible co-writer because I'm so controlling.

So with Claude, [co-writing] actually works a lot better. How about you?Derek: Yes. If it does something I don't like, I can be like, “No, don't do that.”

“Okay, sorry.”

Joanna: Yes, and it's very helpful.

I think you're also using AI for translations. Is that right? What's your process?Derek: I am. I use ScribeShadow, which is AI translations tailored towards fiction. I was one of the early adopters of it. When it first came out, I was like, sure, let's give it a shot, see what happens.

They had like six languages, mostly European languages. It's like, okay, let's throw it up there and see what happens. Italian and Spanish were kind of like, eh, okay, but Germany just took off immediately.

I was just putting up a handful of stories, no advertising still. My first book even got a KDP All Star bonus in German. I've never even had that in America.

Joanna: You didn't have any proofreading? You just went straight from ScribeShadow?

Derek: I went straight from ScribeShadow because at the time, that was before they had partnered with a human translation service that gives them a heavily discounted rate to check everything.

By the time that came along, I had probably 40 books out in German. I went and looked at my ratings and reviews, and I think I had like a 4.3, 4.4 out of five, across all the books.

Then I went and looked at my American versions, and it's like, huh, the German versions are actually higher. So it's like, whatever problem people have, it doesn't appear to be the translations. So I just kept that up because it seems to be working okay.

Joanna: I realize some people listening are just going, “No, no, don't do it!” I have used ScribeShadow, but then I also paid for the proofreading and all of that kind of stuff, but I've only done it for some nonfiction. Oh, I did a short story as well.

I haven't jumped in because, of course, when you pay for all of the other stuff, the costs add up. As you were saying, you wouldn't be able to release at the pace you release, like in German, if you were paying for all of that.

Derek: Right.

I grew up loving B horror movies. So, low budget. They had the creativity, but they didn't have the budget to pull off everything they wanted. I latched onto that mentality.So releasing in German, with the way that I am not paying for the extra translation or editing, like just embracing that B movie mindset. Get it out there. As long as it's entertaining, you'll find an audience.

I know full well I'm leaving 15, 20% of my potential audience on the table who don't like the AI translations, but it's not worth the extra time and money that I would have to spend in order to potentially get them.

I seem to have a regular audience that tunes into my books every week in German because, I mean, I'm profitable within seconds of releasing. So it's like if they're happy, I'm happy.

Joanna: I love that. You mentioned there the 20% you're leaving on the table. I literally wrote down before you said that, 80/20 rule, because that is what you're doing. You're doing the 80/20 rule pretty much for everything. That attitude of like the B movie, which, of course, people love.

I think this is what's so interesting. Listening to you, I feel the freedom. I feel the sort of indie vibe in you, which I just love. I was saying to my husband, listening to you, I caught almost like a flame, I feel. That's why I wanted to talk to you and just say thank you.

I feel like sometimes I get bogged down by so many expectations because I've been doing this a long time. I've been doing this since 2007, 2008, and I lose track of that flame. So I wanted to say thank you to you for kind of lighting that again. I mean, you're like a proper indie, Derek!

Derek: Well, I'm a huge Iron Maiden fan, and one of the things that struck me interviewing Bruce Dickinson, the lead singer years ago, he's like, “We've never gone for radio play. We play music that we like to listen to. We do what we like, and we found an audience.” They're one of the biggest bands in the world.

Like that B movie mindset, like them, it's like, you know what? I'm going to write something that I would want to read. I've just kept pushing it out, and it's taken a little while, but I have an audience, and I'm enjoying every moment of it.

Joanna: Well, great. I think maybe there's some more of your audience coming over.

Tell people where they can find you and your Dead America books online.Derek: The best place to find me is on YouTube and on Spotify as well, The Dead America Zombie Podcast. My books are available on Amazon and Kindle Unlimited, not only in America, but Germany, Italy, and Spain.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Derek. That was great.

Derek: Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

The post Expanding Audiobook Revenue Through YouTube And Podcasting With Derek Slaton first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How can you use Kickstarter to help bring your creative vision into reality? What are some of the biggest mistakes authors make? What are some tips to ensure your campaign is a success? Oriana Leckert shares her expertise.

In the intro, AI-narrated audiobooks from ElevenLabs will now be accepted on Spotify through FindawayVoices; A Midwinter Sacrifice by J.F. Penn with my voice clone for the Author's Note on Spotify; BookVault introduce boxsets and slipcases; Managing your finances [Becca Syme]; How to write non-fiction [EOLU Podcast]; Thoughts on the Berlin film market; Death Valley – A Thriller.

Today's show is sponsored by my patrons! Join my community and get access to extra videos on writing craft, author business, AI and behind the scenes info, plus an extra Q&A show a month where I answer Patron questions. It's about the same as a black coffee a month! Join the community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Oriana Leckert is the head of publishing at Kickstarter, as well as an author, freelance writer, editor, and consultant.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Types of Kickstarter campaigns for authors
• Unique rewards to offer your backers
• Biggest mistakes authors make for a campaign that doesn't fund
• Bringing your own backers vs. discovery from Kickstarter
• Tips for creating a visually pleasing page
• The importance of a pre-launch page
• Making sure your Kickstarter gets approved
• Creating a detailed budget for your rewards

You can find Oriana and more about Kickstarter at Kickstarter.com/creators/publishing and Kickstarter.com/publishing.

Transcript of Interview with Oriana LeckertJoanna: Oriana Leckert is the head of publishing at Kickstarter, as well as an author, freelance writer, editor, and consultant. So welcome to the show, Oriana.

Oriana: Jo, I'm so excited to be here talking with you. Thank you so much for having me.

Joanna: It's great to have you on the show. So first up, just in case—

What is Kickstarter, for anyone who doesn't know? What is your role there?How did you become involved in the publishing side of things?

Oriana: Absolutely. So Kickstarter is a crowdfunding platform. We are unique in the crowdfunding landscape for a few reasons. We are only for creative projects, so you can't use Kickstarter for medical bills, investment funding, charitable donations.

Every Kickstarter project has to create something new to share with the world.Kickstarter is also a public benefit corporation, which is a sort of legal and business charter that turns us basically into a mission-driven for-profit organization. So our mission is to bring creative projects to life. Everything we do comes back to bringing more creativity into the world through that structure.

We are also quite a progressive company. We do 5% after-tax profit donations every year to organizations fighting systemic inequality and doing music and arts education. We are very transparent about our tax contributions, the salary difference between our CEO and the median staff salary.

So we do all sorts of things that make us, what I believe, a really ethical place to be and a force for hopefully good in the world.

My role is head of publishing. So I've been a Kickstarter six years, which is the longest I've been at any company, actually. I came here to grow our journalism category at the very end of 2018. I have done journalism, I've done comics, I've done publishing.

It, sort of unexpected to me, is the best job I've ever had. Which is slightly corny, but worth saying. I can't believe I get to do this work all the time. My background is about half and half digital media and traditional publishing, so I've spent most of my career fully focused on books and the written word in one way or another.

I generally describe my job here as one part literary industry expert, one part crowdfunding consultant, one part life coach, and one part cheerleader. So those are the various roles I get to play for my creators.

I also get to be out in the world all the time doing wonderful things like this, just kind of talking about Kickstarter and helping people get a better understanding of what it's for, how you can use it, the benefit for authors and creative people of all stripes.

Joanna: Oh, that's great. You are a cheerleader. I love your energy. You bring such a great energy.

I do feel like Kickstarter, obviously, is a company, but it does have that very creative feel. So I really appreciate that.

I've also met you a couple of times in Vegas over the last few years, and so I thought we'd start there. What have you seen in terms of the changes in the author community over the last few years?

What are the types of Kickstarter campaigns that authors do?Obviously, we're not all Brandon Sanderson (whose campaign made over $41 million!).

Oriana: That's a great question. It's been pretty exciting. So I was hired by Margot Atwell, who held this role, also, for five or six years. I really see a pretty strong through line from her work to mine.

The amount of change in perception from authors, publishers, illustrators, toward Kickstarter, the shift has been absolutely massive.

I mean, certainly when Margot started, and even when I started, there was a lot of sort of bewilderment, hedging toward distrust, and people thought Kickstarter was just for desperate people who couldn't get a book deal through the traditional systems.

The change has been so dramatic of people understanding that —

Kickstarter can be transformative for an author's career — and that it can work for traditional publishing, indie publishing, hybrid publishing, all kinds of authors.

I mean, obviously I'm in the bag for Kickstarter, but there are so many ways that it can be tremendously helpful. Kickstarter is really about collapsing the boundaries between a writer and their readers, a publisher and their fan base, any creative person and their audience.

There's so many benefits to doing that. You get to thrill your backers with new and exciting rewards. You get to turn what can be a sort of, not boring, but like just a standard book release, into a moment.

You get to build your brand, your profile, get press.

You get to test out ambitious projects. You get to understand so much more about your audience — and what they want and how you can give it to them.

So, yes, going to shows like Author Nation, formerly 20Books, was a real revelation for me. Margot's work was mostly concentrated on the traditional publishing industry and getting to know the people who are really driving forward indie publishing and self-publishing and owning their own author careers.

It's been really marvelous getting to make a lot of inroads into that world and seeing the great success that people can have on our platform and outside of it.

Joanna: You mentioned there that you can thrill backers with new and exciting rewards, but I feel like many people listening might not even know what kind of rewards they would do. The word “reward”, it's quite a different word if people haven't been involved with Kickstarter.

For an author, what are the kind of rewards that people are doing?Oriana: I love that question because, to me, the rewards are really like at the heart of the Kickstarter proposition and what makes this kind of fundraising so interesting and kind of thrilling.

Basically, Kickstarter, your process is that you're inviting people on a creative journey. You're saying, I'm going to make this cool thing. I want your support, and in exchange, you're going to get stuff. You're going to get to be part of my process.

Your main reward is going to be your book, or your series — or, if you're a publishing company, your season. Whatever it is, that's your main tier, and then you're going to build everything else out above and below that.

Then a lot of people think the rewards means swag or merch, which is fine, but merch can really add a lot to your production costs. It's causing you to learn how to produce all kinds of things that maybe you've never done before.

So that's not the only way to do it. If you're going to do some merch, I think it's nice to come up with some custom items that feel really related to the work that you're doing.

If you've got a romance novel with a pivotal scene on the beach, maybe you make some candles that smell like the ocean. Maybe you do some kind of handkerchief that's printed with the pattern of the dress that your heroine is wearing.

You can really think beyond merch, into digital rewards, experiential rewards. There's a lot of parts of the writing process that can be sort of like pulled out and packaged as rewards. Things like notes from the field, outtakes, deleted scenes.

I've had people write bloopers, as if it were like a comedy movie, like added new scenes or novellas, other pieces from different works that you've done. Certainly, your back list and other books that you've written, those can all be included. We've seen people do tours of the writer’s studio, things like that.

Also think about what skills you have in addition to your writing. Perhaps you are excellent at marketing, or social media, or poetry. You can offer webinars on those sorts of things, other kinds of ways that people can experience the creative practice that you have.

Then you can get into like high-end exclusive one-off, crazy rewards. One whole section of rewards I love is naming rights. We've seen all kinds of “We'll name the dragon after your dog. We'll name the illness after your mother in law. We'll name the hero after your son.”

There's a LitRPG novelist named Matt Dinniman, who did this really well. He writes these big cast, you know, there's dungeons, and you're in an intergalactic reality TV show with hundreds of characters. So in his last campaign, for $666 he will kill you off in his next book, and for $777 he'd let you live. He'll write a whole scene around you personally and that sort of thing.

So those are just some. I mean, you can do book release parties. You can do book clubs. If you're writing children's books, you can do coloring pages or supplemental material for teachers or other educators.

The sky is really the limit, and it is based on your creativity — and the things that both you can make and that your audience wants. So this is another opportunity to talk to them.

Ask them, if I'm going to do a piece of swag, would you rather have an enamel pin or makeup bag? If I'm going to do alternate covers, would you like the blue cover or the red cover? See what your people are interested in, and then figure out whether it's possible for you to deliver it to them?

Joanna: Wow, so many ideas there. I feel like this is part of the game, is that if someone's listening and they're like, “oh, that sounds great,” well—

You need to get on Kickstarter and start backing things and understanding how it works.It's quite different. People think, oh, it's just like an Amazon or whatever, it's just not.

Oriana: My number one piece of advice for anyone who's even a little bit Kickstarter curious, get on the site and back some projects, even just for a buck or two. Follow the creators out in the world, watch what people are doing.

I often say this, but I am an expert in Kickstarter because I stare at Kickstarter all day long. You too can stare at Kickstarter all day long. You can follow everybody. You can look at what people have done and what's worked and what hasn't.

Find all the best tricks, steal them for your own. Imitation is the highest form of flattery and all that. It is absolutely the best way to get good at Kickstarter, just like immerse yourself in this strange and lovely world and see how everybody else is doing it, and do it better.

Joanna: I mean, I now buy a lot of just ebooks.

I mean, I buy a lot of beautiful print with foil and all this, but I also just buy ebooks. They're kind of a similar price as you might get on some of the other platforms. So people can do that.

I think you mentioned the book being the main offering, and people might think, well, that's the paperback. But you can do ebook, you can do audiobook, you can do bundles, you can do series, as you said. So there's so many options.

So obviously things have changed over the last few years, but—

Have you got any numbers on how big the Kickstarter industry is now with publishing?Or anything you can share around that?

Oriana: I would love to tell you. So first I'll tell you, Kickstarter overall, by the numbers since our inception, there have been 273,000 projects funded, eight and a half billion dollars pledged, from more than 24 million backers.

In publishing specifically, we've had 69,000 projects launched, 3.2 million unique backers, and over $380 million pledged to campaigns. I have lots of other stats, but a few things I'll share here.

The publishing category has grown year over year, every year since 2017, in terms of number of projects launched, number of projects successful, and the overall percent of success rate. There has never been a dip since 2017, so for over a decade.

Another stat that I really love about the publishing category, if you look at campaigns that have at least 25 backers, the overall success rate is 84%. I think that's really telling because 25 backers, that's like a little bit more than your mom, your best friend, the folks who are essentially obligated to support anything that you do.

So if you can get a little bit beyond that sort of inner circle, your chances of succeeding on the platform are tremendously high. Another thing that I wanted to call out, I just got some new numbers around this, the average backing amount per backer across the whole category has nearly doubled since 2020.

So we used to see an average backing around $40, and it's currently at $72 per backer. I think this is clearly around the trend of special and deluxe editions, but it's a great indication that —

The backer behavior on Kickstarter is just very different than your general book buying public.People don't come here looking for 99 cent ebooks, the lowest bargain basement prices.

Folks are really willing to pay more because they understand that this is a different kind. It's not exactly a purchase, it really is supporting bringing a strange and wonderful new thing into the world that wouldn't exist before.

People are also much more forgiving about timeline. If you buy something from most online booksellers, you're expecting to have it in your hands within a couple of days. People wait months, and sometimes years, to get their Kickstarter rewards, and they don't mind if the creator is clear and transparent.

You're also doing the work of demystifying the publishing process. Why does it take so long? Where are books printed? How long does it take them to ship via freight over the ocean? What do all these things really look like?

So it's really interesting just figuring out what your backers want and will bear, versus the general book buying public out in the world.

Joanna: Absolutely, and that's why we have fewer backers than we might sell total books on other platforms. As you said, they do spend more money and we can do higher quality and more interesting products. Obviously there, you mentioned that not every campaign actually funds.

What are some of the top mistakes you see that mean the campaign doesn't fund or there are other issues?Oriana: The biggest mistake I think authors make, or any creator, is overestimating their abilities to reach their crowd. I think making sure that your ambition matches your reach is the number one most important thing to like come close to guaranteeing that you will be successful.

If you are an emerging writer, and you're still building your audience, and you don't have that many followers or subscribers out in the world, you should not try to fund a multi-volume, leather bound omnibus.

Do a real, honest assessment of who's in your crowd, how to find them, what percentage of them are likely to support what you're doing — and then find a project that feels realistic based on those numbers. That's really the biggest thing, sort of conceptually.

As far as tips for a project page, again, back campaigns, look at what other people are doing.

A project page can be either as simple or as complicated as you want to make it. You definitely want, obviously, to talk about the book, what is in it. Do a trope card, if you want. We're seeing those all over the site.

Just what kind of book it is, and like specs. Also, page count, trim size, cover design. Obviously, if you're doing a special edition, exactly what sorts of bells and whistles, with a prototype, if you can.

Then you can be really expansive from there. What are your inspirations? Who are your collaborators? What brought you to this work? What are some of the things that make you excited about your writing practice? Your timeline, your budget. What made you choose these rewards and how are you going to produce them?

All those sorts of things will make backers feel both more trusting that you will do the things that you're promising, and just more excited to be part of your journey.

Joanna: So just to be clear with what you said at the beginning. So somebody, they're a new writer—and I've seen several authors fail this way—they want to do some gorgeous book, and they put a level of $25,000 is what they want, but they don't necessarily have an email list or anything.

When I saw this particular person I'm thinking of, I saw that and was like, there's no way that's going to fund. So what is the problem with people that are kind of expecting Kickstarter to bring people? So maybe just talk about—

What's the split between what Kickstarter does with discovery and then what the author has to bring?Oriana: Yes, absolutely. So we track backer behavior, obviously, all across the site and category by category.

In your Creator dashboard, if you run a campaign, you will see a breakdown of what percentage of backers are coming through your efforts and who are coming through the Kickstarter ecosystem.

In publishing, an average is about 30% are coming through Kickstarter. That can be like 20% to maybe 40%, depending on how much exposure your project winds up getting. So that's not nothing.

Being on Kickstarter will help you grow your audience, but it's definitely not everything. You really do need to bring your people first.Our algorithm works on attention.

So any project that's getting clicks, getting backings, getting comments, our algorithm says, “Oh, people want to look at this. We will expose it to more and more people.” That means raising it up in search results, slotting it into various of the macros and carousels around the site.

Our recommendation engine powers recommended projects on the top of campaigns, at the bottom of emails. We are doing a lot to make sure that projects are being surfaced to folks who want to see them.

We actually are doing some significant backer-focused work this year on improving our search results, improving our recommendation engine. We're really working to make sure that people are finding the projects that they are going to be excited by.

Joanna: So, I mean, and this is something I think is quite different, it is very visual. The story page, the sales page. There's a main visual.

There's kind of two fields, the header field, and then a very small description field and then the image. That's what's really surfaced around Kickstarter, isn't it?

Any tips for the image and those text boxes for SEO purposes?Oriana: Yes, totally. So SEO is important, but it is not as crucial. We can always tell when people are coming to us from KU because rather than the title of the book, their project subject says, “Reverse harem, lesbians on Mars, with an enemies to lover subplot.” You know, you don't have to do that on Kickstarter.

Keywords are important, but it's not the same. It's much more about, what is this project? Who is it for? So I would, of course, absolutely maximize your title and your subtitle to get as much information as possible.

Then exactly as you said, I mean, imagine somebody looking at your project on their phone. They're going to see the title, subtitle, the project image, maybe one sentence. That's also what they're going to see in a tweet, in a search result, in a newsletter thumbnail.

So those elements are really, really important, and you want with just those four items to sort of bring everybody in and get them excited to click through.

For the project image, we recommend one full bleed image. Maybe it's your cover, your cover image, or like one gorgeous illustration from the book. Or if you've got a series, maybe a stack of books.

We don't recommend larding up that image with a whole lot of text. Remember it's going to show up next to your title, the title of your project.

So if the title of your project is the title of your book, and the title of your book is also written on the book cover, you don't also need a text bubble that says the book title on top of that project image.

Sometimes people try to cram a whole lot of very salesy text onto that image. It not only like makes the image pop less and makes it less interesting, it also is very difficult to read when that shows up thumbnail sized on a search page or a social post.

So concentrate on making like a bright, exciting image that isn't too overloaded with many tiny elements.

Joanna: And then the video. I wanted to ask about this because on Kickstarter it says you really should do a video. So why is that?

Any tips on the sales video?Oriana: We definitely do see a preference for videos. It's, again, probably the tiktokization and the pivot to video all around the internet. Kickstarter is on the internet. It's a visual medium. People like videos these days.

That said, if the video is the main stumbling block keeping you off the platform, I am here to tell you that you don't have to do one. Plenty of projects fund extremely well without having a video. So if that's the calculation that you're making, just have beautiful imagery and you'll be fine.

That said, if you are going to do a video, it needs to be short, bright and compelling. Especially on the publishing side, we see about 50% of potential backers stop watching after one minute, and everybody else is gone after the second minute.

So you don't need to undertake some massive Hollywood production style situation that's going to cost you tons of time and money. Much better to do just kind of like a direct to camera. It is nice to show your face if you feel comfortable doing so.

Just a teaser. Talk a little bit about who you are, what you're doing, ask for people's support, and say that you hope they click in and read through the whole rest of your story.

Joanna: So, and this is a tough one, because I've done different kinds of videos, now coming up for my fifth campaign.

For the fiction, I did do one for Blood Vintage which is like a book trailer. So it goes straight into the sort of thriller book trailer, and then I put on my face afterwards, and I'm telling them about the book.

On my nonfiction ones, I've really just done, sort of as you said, a face to camera.

Is there any data on what kind of video people prefer? For fiction, is a book trailer better than a direct to camera, or vice versa?Oriana: That's not the kind of data that we do or possibly even could collect. I think it's more a question of knowing your audience, knowing what they want, and what is going to fit the best. I mean, I think that's really smart that you've done it slightly differently for your fiction versus nonfiction.

Whatever you think is going to be the best representation of this particular work, that's what you should go with.

Joanna: I guess I think about it from my perspective as a backer. With fiction—and it's terrible to say, but it's true—I often don't care so much about the author, I want the story.

I've bought a ton of fiction off Kickstarter without knowing the author, whereas I feel like the nonfiction I've bought, I've actually known the author, so I'm more interested in the author. So that's just, I guess, my personal behavior.

Oriana: Sure, but your personal behavior is probably fairly telling about a broader book buying population. So I think that makes a lot of sense.

Joanna: It's good to know though. I mean, for people listening, look, there's no structure for it. In fact, the very first video I did, I went to Russell Nohelty's bestselling page and I deconstructed his video. I literally wrote it down, and then I followed his script with my stuff.

Oriana: That's a great way to do it.

Joanna: I think to find someone who's successful and model them, I think that's always a good trick.

Oriana: Yes, absolutely.

Joanna: Okay, so let's just talk about some of the other aspects. So the pre-launch page, this is something that seems to be very important.

Talk about the pre-launch page.Oriana: Absolutely. It's a new feature. We've released it—gosh, what is time—last year or the year before. It has really changed the way that people are doing the kind of period before they launch.

[Check out my pre-launch page at JFPenn.com/deathvalley — which will become the main sales page on launch.]

So a pre-launch page, it's a cover page. It lives at the same URL where your campaign will ultimately go. It's simplified, and it is designed to generate followers.

So anybody who follows the pre-launch page is going to get a system email from Kickstarter as soon as you launch. We see a very high conversion over the life of the project, from pre-launch followers to project backers, sometimes 40 or 50%. Most of them tend to do it right away.

The work that you do to promote that pre-launch page and get your follower count up is going to pay off very handsomely once you launch. It really helps you have a strong first day, which is excellent for morale, excellent for messaging, good for the overall percentage chance of success on the project.

So, as I said, this is still new-ish. We don't have a huge amount of data about it, but I recommend a pre-launch period of at least two weeks. We've seen some people do it for weeks, months, even in a few cases, over a year.

I think in the best case, that pre-launch period is sort of a crescendo into the burst of launch. So if you urge someone to get excited and follow this page, which they do, and then six months later they get an email that the campaign is live now, I think you've really diluted the excitement that they had when they first came on board.

Everyone should do what works for them and their timeline and their project, but definitely don't skip that as a step.

Spend some time promoting that pre-launch page, getting up your follower count. It will really, really, really help once you go live.

Joanna: For people listening, my pre-launch page is at JFPenn.com/DeathValley. Depending on when people are listening, it might well be live, or it might be in the future.

So when I did my first campaign, obviously you don't know when you first start all the things you kind of have to do. There's obviously KYC, know your customer, that Kickstarter has to do. So if people are going to set up their pre-launch page, how long will it take and—

What do people need to set up so that Kickstarter knows they can be approved?Oriana: So there's two different approvals.

The KYC stuff is done by Stripe, our payment processor. I would give yourself lots of extra time for these approvals. It usually only takes a day or two. Sometimes you get an automatic approval, but don't leave that to the very end.

Make sure you get your bank details, your ID, all of that information up and sent over to Stripe well before you need to, well before it comes to crunch time.

As far as the Kickstarter approval process, that too can be automatic or it can take up to a few days. We do want, especially for first time authors or first time creators, the trust and safety team who reviews the projects wants to see pretty much a final draft when they're approving it.

You can't put up your pre-launch page until the project is approved. For serial creators in good standing, we are making some allowances where people can get that pre-launch page up before the approval process.

Especially when you're starting out on the platform, it's good practice to like have your campaign more or less finalized, so that the reviewers can see everything that you'll be doing. Then you can get that pre-launch page up at that point.

Joanna: Yes, because —

When you put up the rewards and things, you have to have costed it all out. You have to say, like, how much people need to pledge, and you need to know things like your shipping details. So let's get a bit more into those finances.

Earlier, you mentioned that adding merch can add a lot of money and lot of cost to a campaign. Of course, if you don't know how much it's going to cost even just to print your book, say, with foil or sprayed edges, or whatever, you can't cost it out either.

What are some of the issues that people find with finances around Kickstarter?Oriana: I cannot stress enough the importance of doing a full, real, detailed budget. That doesn't mean vaguely guessing how much you think it might cost to print a book. Really, actually get samples, figure out all of your processes.

Budget, not just for print production, but for bubble wrap and tape, for pens and stickers. For all of the things that you are going to be producing in your rewards and also budget contingency plans.

Think about all the things that might go wrong.Make sure you're doing a really, really detailed job of understanding all of your costs. It's good that you mentioned Russell before. There's a publishing creator tips page, that's kickstarter.com/creators/publishing.

There's a whole lot of resources there for all kinds of different projects and different elements of the crowdfunding process. One piece is a budgeting article by Russell. It's got a worksheet in it and details all of these things that we're talking about. So I absolutely recommend using that as a guide when you're setting out your budget.

One thing about it that I love is that he also says, “Include a little bit of money to do a nice thing for yourself.” For him, he gets a tattoo of one of his characters after every successful campaign.

So maybe for you, that's getting a manicure or a massage or a nice dinner or a new book, but do do something sweet for yourself. That's a nice way to give yourself a reward at the end of what can be a pretty intense process.

Joanna: Yes, it is intense. It's funny because I was scared about it before I pressed that button on the first time, but I feel like what I love about the Kickstarter thing is that it's a real launch period.

I feel like one of the most tiring things for authors is the constant need to do marketing, whereas with Kickstarter campaign, you can be like, okay, I'm going to really push hard for this couple of weeks, or a few weeks before that. Push hard, do all my marketing, and then I can go into fulfillment, and I can ease off a bit.

I feel like this is more surge marketing, isn't it?Oriana: Yes. I think that's an excellent way to describe it, for sure.

That's definitely the Kickstarter proposition. You know, look, I will be screaming from the rooftops about this project for 30 days, and then I will stop talking about it.

Joanna: Yes, and you can't have it. Well, there won't be a thing anymore.

Oriana: Exactly, exactly.

Joanna: Well, then on that, I guess once we have finished, the campaign closes, and Kickstarter collects the money, and we get the money in a couple of weeks’ time.

We also have to fulfill the stuff, which is, all the shipping and all of that. One thing that I've seen people be confused about is around taxes.So any clarification on who pays the tax?

Oriana: So I am actually not allowed to give tax advice, as I am absolutely not an accountant. I would say you should certainly talk to your accountant about what you're doing on Kickstarter and how you should report that and what that's all going to mean.

This is a reasonable point to note that, as we are recording this on February 13th, yesterday, Kickstarter announced a whole bunch of new features that we have been working on for a long time, and we are in the process of rolling out. Including a lot of post campaign tools that we've never had before.

We're doing an internal pledge management system. That is something that people have been asking us for probably over a decade. There are many elements to that, but one thing that we are going to be doing in the future is we're going to be helping everybody with tax and VAT collection.

So that's something that's coming soon, and we're going to do our best to help demystify a massively complicated process.

Joanna: It is. Well, then I'll say, from my perspective, I know what taxes I have to pay, and I make sure I pay them after I get the money from Kickstarter. So as far as I'm concerned —

Paying tax is my responsibility as the creator.What else then is coming? Or things that perhaps authors aren't using enough yet?

Oriana: Well, so last year, we released late pledges. This means, as like it says on the tin, once the campaign is closed, you can still collect additional backing. There's some caveats with that. We don't want to undermine that sort of now or never, all or nothing, do or die situation.

So our recommendations for late pledges, they're most effective in two to seven days after the campaign has closed. The final 48 hours of a campaign are really strong. You know, that's when all of that FOMO really kicks in. So a lot of marketing happens, a lot of outreach, a lot of just like traffic.

So inevitably, no matter how hard you have been pushing this project, the day after your campaign closes, three people are going to email you and say, “Well, I didn't know you had a live campaign.” So late pledges are really for them to still be able to get on board, even though they missed all of the main part of the activity.

We also recommend you do not have all of your rewards available in late pledges, and those that you do, cost more. So again, you want to make sure that all of that talk you've been doing during the campaign of like, “This is your only chance to get this book, at this price, at this specificity,” has not been made into a lie by late pledges.

Then also with late pledges, they don't get to stay up forever. At some point you do say, now I am going to press, so I'm going to turn them off. So that's how late pledges are designed to work.

Some other really cool features that we've just announced, and again, as I said, we announced this yesterday. So I don't have a ton more information, although I should tell you where to go to find it. I mean, we've got pop ups and things all over the site about it.

Well, it's a slightly cumbersome URL, updates.kickstarter.com/kickstarters-2025-product-roadmap with some hyphens. I don't know if you have show notes.

Joanna: I'll put a link in the show notes.

Oriana: Excellent. That would be great. That's where we lay out the sort of overview of all of the stuff that we're working on this year.

Some things that I will just call out, we are in beta currently for a payment plan. It's called Pledge Over Time. That allows backers for rewards above a certain dollar amount, I think it's $125, to make their pledge in four payments, rather than all at once.

We are working on secret rewards, which, this is also still in beta. Creators can get a direct link to a reward that's not listed in the campaign and send that to specific groups of backers.

So we have a lot more features planned for this year. We're trying to make things that people have been asking for. This also means, if there's a feature that you want Kickstarter to have that we currently don't, write into our support team and tell them.

A lot of the things that we have developed over the years have come directly from so many people asking for it that we realized we just had to do it. So please tell us what you want, and maybe it'll come to life.

Joanna: Brilliant.

Where can people find Kickstarter for Publishing and any other help online?Oriana: Yes, kickstarter.com/publishing is where all of the publishing projects are. I mentioned that creator tips page, kickstarter.com/creators/publishing. We are all over the socials. We are everywhere that you can find us.

Oh, another thing we also just rolled out is a whole new learning lab curriculum, which is a video series of every element of your Kickstarter project.

It is probably geared a bit more toward like larger sort of design and tech and gadget and games creators, but I'm sure that there are really, really relevant tips for publishers and publishing folks in there as well.

We're trying to give as much help as possible. We want everybody to succeed. Of course, a rising tide lifts all boats, which is foundational to the Kickstarter ethos.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Oriana. That was great.

The post Kickstarter For Authors With Oriana Leckert first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How does generative AI relate to fair use when it comes to copyright? What are the possibilities for AI licensing? Alicia Wright shares her thoughts on generative AI for authors.

In the intro, Publishing leaders share 9 Bold Predictions for 2025 [BookBub]; OpenAI launches Operator [The Verge]; Bertelsmann (who own Penguin Random House) intends to work with OpenAI to expand and accelerate the use of artificial intelligence (AI) in the media, services, and education sectors; Death Valley — A Thriller.

Today's show is sponsored by my patrons! Join my community and get access to extra videos on writing craft, author business, AI and behind the scenes info, plus an extra Q&A show a month where I answer Patron questions. It's about the same as a black coffee a month! Join the community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Alicia Wright is an intellectual property lawyer for a technology company, and also writes science fiction and mystery as Alicia Ellis. With two degrees in computer science and an MFA in writing popular fiction, she is expertly placed to comment on AI as it applies to writers.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Using AI as a brainstorming partner and collaborator
• AI as fair use because it creates something transformative
• Using the right prompts to produce quality outputs from AI
• AI is the next technological change in our society
• Licensing your IP for training and AI usage — what to look for in contracts
• Training the AI systems to include your work in generative searches
• Developing your authorial voice and creative confidence
• Uitlizing AI agents in your author business

You can find Alicia at WriterAlicia.com and on social media @WriterAlicia.

Transcript of Interview with Alicia WrightJoanna: Alicia Wright is an intellectual property lawyer for a technology company, and also writes science fiction and mystery as Alicia Ellis.

With two degrees in computer science and an MFA in writing popular fiction, she is expertly placed to comment on AI as it applies to writers, which we're talking about today. So welcome to the show, Alicia.

Alicia: Thank you so much, Jo. I'm happy to be here.

Joanna: Oh, I'm excited to talk to you. So first up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing, and also into AI and technology.Alicia: All right. Well, I should say that I got into AI and technology first. I was always one of those science and math people. Math was my favorite subject in school. Not a lot of people say that, but I loved math. I loved the sciences. I always was reading forward in my textbooks.

Then my mother didn't want us watching TV, so we read a lot of books. I got into writing poetry, writing song lyrics, writing short stories, and the creative side of me came out.

It never occurred to me to write something longer—because I was a math/science person—until I got into law school, and there you have to write all the time. You have to write briefs, you know, these 30 page documents.

Then it occurred to me that, hey, I'd like to write a novel. So I would say the technology interest was always there, and the creative interest, the writing, came later.

In my work as a patent attorney, I have encountered AI-related applications throughout the years, even generative AI technologies as far as 10 years back. So I had an interest in that even before it became relevant to the writing industry.

Joanna: So when did you get into writing fiction? How many years have you been writing fiction, as well as doing your incredible job?

Alicia: I have been writing fiction, specifically long form fiction, for as long as I have been a lawyer. The time is almost exact. I know this because I was in my final year of law school and sort of had this crisis. Like, I'm graduating law school, do I want to be a lawyer?

I spent time thinking about that. Just sat down for really a day and went through what I would do if it wasn't law. I decided that I did want to do law, but I also wanted to write novels.

So as soon as I graduated law school, I enrolled in some local writing courses. So I've been practicing law and writing for the same amount of time.

Joanna: Which is approximately?

Alicia: 17 years. I got into indie publishing in maybe 2013, but I've been writing for 17 and a half years.

Joanna: Brilliant. So you mentioned there that you, as a patent attorney, you look at AI applications. You did mention using a bit of generative technology there.

How do you currently use AI tools as part of your creative and business processes?Alicia: In my business work, well, I see a lot of AI technologies in what I'm writing patent applications for, and that's what I was referring to before.

In managing a patent portfolio at the cybersecurity firm where I work right now, I definitely use AI technologies to help inventors organize their thoughts when they submit to us to do analyses. Sometimes I'm dealing with a huge patent portfolio, and AI can help organize the analyses and my thoughts on that.

In my writing, I use it mostly at the planning stages as a brainstorming partner. I love AI as a brainstorming partner. I always tell it that it's my junior partner because it tends to go off on its own, and I like to reel it in to run the show, if you will.

I give it my ideas. Often I'll ask it to, say, “Give me five ideas on how to put these things together,” or, “Give me 10 ideas on how to put these things together.” Even if they're bad ideas, it helps me sort of organize my thoughts. Like, why don't I like these ideas?

So, together, we walk through what I want to do. We create a Save the Cat outline. Which I usually start it off once we have all the ideas on the table, I ask it to create the Save the Cat outline.

Usually, I have a lot of changes. We make those changes, and then we'll break it down into a scene list that follows the three act structure.

I often have it generate character sketches and setting sketches — because, honestly, I'm no good with thinking about what does this setting look like. What kind of house is this? Bricks? Facade? I don't care. So the AI is really helpful with that.

There's a lot of editing, a lot of back and forth. AI is a great partner for brainstorming and plotting.

When we get into the writing, my authorial voice is really important to me, in part, probably because I have diagnosed OCD. I have experimented with using AI in pretty much every aspect of my process, but for me, personally, the writing part I have to do. I would spend more time editing AI output than I would have just writing it myself.

I tend to use dictation and input the dictation output into ChatGPT to clean it up — — and they'll catch the dictation error, so I have a much cleaner copy going forward. Then when I'm done writing, I'll use a little AI for developmental editing.

Joanna: I love that. You sound similar to me in the way you're using it. You're using the word ‘partner', your junior partner, your collaborator. You use the word ‘we', which I really like as well because I feel that too.

Like with Claude, I feel this is almost my—not so much co-writer—but like you said, collaborator. It really is a backwards and forwards way of doing it.

I can hear the smile in your voice, and I have a smile in my voice as well, because this is fun, right? This makes it more fun for us.Alicia: It's so fun, and I feel like my work is better, that this brings out a better side of me. Connections that I hadn't made, problems that I didn't foresee. It's having a partner, so that it's improved. It's not just me, it's me plus some artificial intelligence.

Joanna: Yes. So we could geek out about how amazing it is all day, but I did want to ask you about some of the objections that authors have. You did this great talk at Author Nation, and you were so clear on it.

I don't think there are many people in our community who have degrees in computer science and law, and an MFA, and are an active indie author. I think you're the only person, right?

Alicia: Maybe.

Joanna: Maybe.

Let's start with one of the most common objections from authors, which is, “AI companies stole our work.”What are your thoughts on this, and how does it relate to fair use?

Alicia: So when I think of the word stolen, I think of an illegal taking. So I think, are we talking about copyright infringement here? I would say, in my opinion, that the work is not stolen.

The reason I phrase it that way, in my opinion, is because I'm sure a lot of folks know, there's ongoing litigation about whether the use of copyrighted works in training data is copyright infringement.

Until those are actually decided, until those cases are actually decided, I can't say definitively, but I feel pretty confident that the training of AI using copyrighted works is fair use.

Fair use is an exception to copyright infringement. Basically it says, yes, we copied copyrighted works, except we did it for a use where this exception is cut out.

Fair use exists in order to allow us to grow from existing copyrighted works, to spur creativity so that you can create based on what already exists. There's four factors in the US that courts consider for fair use, and one of the key factors is, is your use transformative?

I think that's really important to what fair use is about. Have you created something new? Have you created something that can be used in a different way?

I feel strongly that the use of copyrighted works to train AI is so transformative, and is what fair use is about.There's case law that's related to using copyrighted works, even for AI in the past, but not for generative AI in the way we're talking about now. I feel that the case law is pushing US courts towards saying that this is fair use. We will see, probably in a couple years, for sure.

I would say that I don't feel like AI is theft. I feel like it will be shown at a later date that AI is not theft, but I can't say 100%. I certainly think that it is premature to say that it is theft.

Joanna: It's interesting. I mean, I would have thought that the US would be further ahead on this. Maybe with your incoming Trump administration, those cases might get settled more quickly.

Here in the UK, our government has literally, like yesterday, come out with the AI plan, and they are almost pushing for an exception around data training in copyright, which is really interesting. We have a very different rule around this.

The argument here with the British government is that these strict things restrain innovation or restrict innovation. As you mentioned, fair use is so we can have more innovation, and we don't want to stifle that.

Alicia: Exactly.

Joanna: Another thing that I hear is that ChatGPT and all of this, they're just “plagiarism machines.”They can't create anything original. They can only spit out things that come from other people's work. What are your thoughts on that?

Alicia: Calling AI plagiarism, saying that that's all it does, reflects a basic misunderstanding of how AI works at a technical level.

These generative AI models at their core are statistical models.They've taken in—read, if you will—millions, billions of pieces of writing or images, in the case of the image generators.

Then based on basically statistics—it's much more complex than that, but I'm going to simplify it by saying it's a statistical model—it determines what token—a token could be a word or a symbol, like a period—what token comes after the previous token, and it forms output based on that, one token at a time.

The reason I want to emphasize that it's one token at a time is that you're not lifting even phrases from existing work. It's not at the phrase level. It's at the word level, just like you and I write.

You can't take a combination of words taken from millions of other works and say you plagiarized it because you took a word that was over here and a word that was over there.

It's not a logical reflection of how AI works at the technical level.

Asking, can it only create things that already exist? I would say humans also can only create things that already exist. We all learn from what exists. You're going to see cliche phrases in AI output because, statistically, you'll see words together that you often see together in writing.

So you're going to see things like, “She released the breath that she didn't know she'd been holding,” because you've seen it a lot of other works. In the same way that that's not plagiarism when you write it, it's not plagiarism when the AI writes it, either.

Joanna: I keep hearing people say —

“Oh, this is a crap book. It must have been generated by AI,” — with the assumption that only bad quality writing can be generated. So given that you and I use this a lot, our prompts are very, very different to somebody who is brand new to generative AI.

Do you think that the quality—and I know quality is a tough word—but—Is the quality of writing from generative AI when you use the right prompts?

Alicia: I think —

Prompts make a huge difference. Especially if you're using AI for the writing part, say, for a first draft or for a final draft, however you use it in the actual writing part, I think it's important to prompt it to write like your authorial voice.

The more you do that, I think it's going to be closer to you and may even be better writing, assuming that your author voice is well developed. I think if you just ask the AI—well, I've seen from experience—that if you just ask the AI to write something, it's not necessarily going to be a style that's appropriate for what you're writing.

The more specific you are about how that writing should look, or even give it samples of your writing, describe your own writing, the writing gets better. By better, I mean closer to what you as an author want it to be.

The more specific you are in your prompt, the more you learn how to talk to the AI in a way that it interprets the way you want it to.Joanna: Yes, I agree. I mean, sometimes my prompts can be like 100 words. With Claude, I'm prompting with whole sentences and beats and all kinds of things that at the beginning of my use I didn't necessarily know how to do.

Again, coming back to the co-writer idea, the collaborator idea, it's like working with another person. You mentioned you're OCD. I'm not OCD, but I'm certainly into control around my writing.

I found it very hard to work with a human co-writer, but I love working with Claude for this reason.

[My use of the AI tools] developed over time. You don't just do it from your first interaction.Alicia: Right. I 100% agree with that. I've been using AI in my work, in my planning for my writing, and bits and pieces in my actual writing since it first went mainstream the end of 2022.

My prompts are so much longer now than they were then because I've learned how they're going to respond.

Then my prompts for different AI models are different. My prompts for Claude might be different than my prompts for ChatGPT because I have a sense of how they interpret things.

My prompts have gotten more specific, and I chain my prompts together because that's something you learn. It's a skill, using generative AI as a tool.Joanna: Yes, and that is why I've been harping on about this for so long, because every month that goes past that people don't even try it for little things, they are missing out on time to learn what is essentially, what I think, it kind of underpins the next technological change in our society.

A bit like the internet changed so much, this is going to change so much. Do you feel it's that significant, as well?

Alicia: That is going to change a lot? Absolutely, and there's a lot of change that I look forward to. I'm interested in how the writing industry is going to look when these legal cases are decided. Speculate and say that it's determined that it is okay to train AI models based on copyrighted works.

I'm interested to see how those who are so anti-AI in the writing industry would respond to that. But more than that —

I'm interested in what's coming next. What's going to happen with AI next?I'm hard of hearing, and I'm really looking forward to outside of the writing industry, some sort of captions. You know, they're making smart glasses. I want smart glasses with captions. I'm just waiting for it. I'm rubbing my hands together. I can't wait. Some of this stuff is going to be life changing.

Joanna: Wow, okay. So you mean you're looking at someone while wearing the smart glasses, and as they speak, you'll see captions of what they're saying?

Alicia: That's the dream.

Joanna: That is amazing, and of course, why wouldn't you have that? That just seems very sensible. So I don't even think that's that far away, surely. Let's hope so.

Well, look, let's come to those court cases. So in the USA, and there are still these open court cases against various AI companies, but there are also now far more companies that have done intellectual property licensing deals for data training, including some publishers and media companies.

Now, as we record this in the middle of January 2025, a company called CreatedByHumans.ai has just launched, and they're partnering with the Authors Guild in the US. The aim is to help authors license their IP for training and AI usage.

Now, this is a non-exclusive thing, and authors can choose how the data is used.

What are your thoughts on the opportunities of this kind of licensing for AI and what should authors keep an eye out for in any contracts?Alicia: I think the main thing I want to say about this is, if you're being offered a licensing contract for using your work to train AI, that I would jump on that.

It may be that soon courts bring down decisions that this is fair use, and in that case, they can use your work without a license.

So someone's offering you money for it now, I would say, get into those negotiations and think about getting that locked down.

Specifically with respect to terms, I would say, know the scope and the type of model that your work is going to be used for. If it's going to be used for a general purpose that could be used to create competing works, then maybe you want to be paid more than if it's going to be used internally at law firms, for example.

So know what it's going to be used for because that tells you what the value of this license is. I would say, make sure that your terms don't include derivative works, or are very specific about what derivative works are included in what you're giving.

You don't want someone using AI to generate works that are directly based off your work, like sequels. Just make sure that that's something that's out of the scope of the license.

It would exclude anything about sub licenses, unless you're getting paid for a sub license. Ideally, put a term on it, on the licensing of your work, because this area is developing.

You don't know what's going to happen five years from now, 10 years from now. There may be whole new clauses that you want in there because of how technology has developed.

So I would, personally, try to avoid a license that's 20 years or the term of your copyright because you want to be able to develop that license as the technology develops.

I would also limit how your work is going to appear in outputs, meaning the percentage of your work that can appear in outputs.

It is unlikely that with a general purpose chat bot where millions or billions of works are used to train that a significant portion of your work would appear in the output because it wouldn't have that large an input on the statistical model that is the AI model.

However, you don't know how big the model is going to be or how many works are going to be used to train it. So I think it could be worthwhile to have a percentage, say, only 2% of my work at a time can appear in any given outbreak.

That's something that they can program as a layer above a generative AI model, so that it sort of screens that before any output gets put out to a user. So that's something that I would have in there as well.

In general, make sure your contract has remedies, so that if there's a breach, you can cancel the contract, for example. As opposed to just getting paid out, or whatever remedies you prefer, make sure they're outlined in there.

Ideally, you want a right to audit what's happening with your work in the training, so that you can take advantage of those remedies. If you can't see what's going on, then the remedies aren't doing you much good.

Joanna: Those are all really useful things. It's funny because the first thing you said was, get into this because things might change, and we might not get anything if it becomes fair use.

The other thing I thought is we almost have a burning platform on the creation of synthetic data. So I've been looking at the OpenAI's o1 model, and some people are saying that one of the reasons it was created is because it can create really good synthetic data to train the o3 models.

Alicia: Oh, wow.

Joanna: I know. I was like, wow—

If they can do really good synthetic data, they don't even need to take our data.Although I guess the original sin, as such, may still stand. I don't know. I mean, any thoughts on that?

Alicia: Well, I hadn't heard that about the o1 and the o3 model, but synthetic data, that's something that I'm excited about because I want these models to improve. I want them to use my work to train the models. Synthetic can write more like me, make my job easier.

I'm excited for more training data. I hope that more folks in the writing industry get on board and allow their works to be licensed if allowance is needed. Even if allowance is not needed, I know that folks in the AI industry are feeling the pushback from the writing industry, and it may slow them down.

I don't want them to be slowed down. I want to see this stuff develop.

Joanna: It's interesting that we both want our data in the models. Partly, I also think there's a big change in generative search, in that I mainly use ChatGPT now to do my searches.

So I've been trying to do sort of book discovery, you know, “Give me 10 books that are action adventure thrillers with a female protagonist set in this area.” Then it gives me 10, and I'm like, “Well, what about this book by JF Penn?” I'm like almost trying to train it to think of my books as well.

What do you think about generative search and people using these models for searching?If we're not there, we just won't be found.

Alicia: If we're not there, they just won't be found. What do you mean by that?

Joanna: Well, as in, the models have access to certain data and certain data that's on the internet. So a lot of the time, it can look at Goodreads, or it can look at Amazon.

I want ChatGPT and Claude to know J.F. Penn, so that if someone is searching for something to read—and a lot of the apps that go on top of things now are powered by these tools—

I want the models to know my writing so that it can promote me or recommend me if people go looking for things like I write.Alicia: Oh, for sure. I know there are anti-AI folks in the writing industry who don't want AI anywhere near their work. I'm more what you just said. I want AI to be able to find me. I want AI to be able to write more like me.

I believe strongly in my own creativity and my ability to create something that is specifically me, and because of that, I'm not concerned about AI being near my work. I want it to help me.

I'm not scared about how its use is going to impact my marketability because I know what I've got.Joanna: I love that, and I actually think the same thing.

I wonder if this is creative confidence that comes from—like both of us have been 17 years writing, and previously I was in tech as well. Not quite as deep as you, but I'm confident with tech.

So this kind of creative confidence in our own work and in our own worth that some newer writers might not have, I guess.

Is there anything you can say to newer writers who might not have as much creative confidence as you?Alicia: This may be strange coming from someone who is very fond of AI, I have a lot of fun with it, but I would say that maybe building that creative confidence means not using AI for a while.

It means discovering who you are as an author, what sort of things you like to write before bringing in a partner, be it AI or a human writer of another sort. Really find your uniqueness and your identity as a writer before you start adding tools into the mix.

Joanna: That is actually a really good point.

You and I have both already done enough books and written enough that we're confident in our voice that we found before AI.Then I just wonder if maybe people who are younger in the usage of these tools, or people younger in their journey, or just physically younger, are going to do things differently. Like you and I grew up without iPhones, and we grew up without television.

My mum was the same as your mum. We weren't allowed to watch TV until I was about 12. So I feel like maybe people will develop their voice differently now.

Alicia: That's a really good point, and I honestly don't know what that will look like, but I'm excited to see it.

Joanna: Yes, me too. Okay, so let's just circle back on copyright because another sticking point for authors in using these tools is—

They're afraid that they won't have copyright in their finished work if they use AI tools in any way. So where's the line here?How is it in the US? Because it's different in the UK.

Alicia: Right. In the US, first of all, expression that is generated by artificial intelligence, by a machine, is not copyrightable. However, your authorship is copyrightable. Thus, when you combine your authorship with an AI-generated output, then the part of that that is your creative expression is still copyrightable.

So what that means is, if there's a combination, if you're using AI as a partner, then whatever expression that you contribute to that final product is copyrightable in the US.

Thus, say someone was to copy a chapter of your book that has you in it, as opposed to telling the AI in a short paragraph to write a chapter, if you've been a part of selecting what goes in that chapter, arranging that chapter, editing words that were initially output by the AI, that's all your expression.

One cannot copy that chapter without copying that expression, which is yours.

There's still copyright eligibility when you've used AI, depending on how you use it.The Copyright Office has confirmed this. This isn't all theoretical here. The Copyright Office has handled some cases.

[Note from Jo — here are some excerpts from the US Copyright Office info, and also the UK, as they differ. Please check your jurisdiction. ]

In the UK, Section 9(3) of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 around authorship and ownership of copyright states:

In the case of a literary, dramatic, musical, or artistic work which is computer-generated, the author shall be taken to be the person by whom the arrangements necessary for the creation of the work are undertaken.

In the US, copyright is all about ‘human authorship,’ and in March 2023, the United States Copyright Office issued guidance around the definition of human authorship in an age of generative AI. They note:

A human may select or arrange AI-generated material in a sufficiently creative way that ‘the resulting work as a whole constitutes an original work of authorship.’

Importantly, they also say,

This policy does not mean that technological tools cannot be part of the creative process. Authors have long used such tools to create their works or to recast, transform, or adapt their expressive authorship.

For example, a visual artist who uses Adobe Photoshop to edit an image remains the author of the modified image, and a musical artist may use effects such as guitar pedals when creating a sound recording.

In each case, what matters is the extent to which the human had creative control over the work’s expression and ‘actually formed’ the traditional elements of authorship.

[Back to the interview]There was a semi-well known case with a graphic novel where the author had generated each image using AI, but the copyright office determined that the arrangement of those images, the selection of those images and arranging them into a story, was copyright protected.

Thus you can't just take that graphic novel and copy it and sell it, because the author's expression is in there. That's the case with cover art as well as written work.

Audiobooks with AI narration are a little different because your copyrighted expression is already in the input, and the output is just your words spoken. So you don't even have to edit that output, it already has your expression in it, and is copyright eligible in the US.

I know in the UK, there are even stronger protections for copyright eligibility of AI-generated works. I think if you direct the creation of it, it's yours.

Joanna: Yes, and I think that's probably why so many people are putting offices here. OpenAI has an office here. I mean, Runway ML, the video generator, they've got an office here, and are partnering with the UK film company. It's essentially like if a machine generates something, it belongs to the person who who directed it.

I was thinking about this, like I like the word director because, increasingly, if you think about a film director—and you know, people will have their favorite movie directors—

Movie directors direct and have a creative vision, but they are not acting every scene. They're not doing all the sets. They're not they're not doing every piece of work in a movie. They are the director. So I almost wonder if that's the direction we're going is—This much bigger role, where we can do much bigger things, with a lot more help.

Alicia: I think so. I think that there's a lot that we can do with AI to create and expand our creativity besides just writing. We can direct a little movie now ourselves with AI-generated visuals.

However, I also predict, I don't know for sure, that we're going to see copyright eligibility of AI-generated outputs that are unedited in the US. We're going to see some of that become protectable. Right now, that's really shaky ground, except with the exception of audiobooks and the like.

It's really shaky ground, say that an AI-generated image as is, would get any kind of copyright protection. I think we may see that depending on how specific your prompt is, that there may be some copyright protection based on the creativity that you put into that.

Joanna: Yes, I think so. As these models get better and better, you can have a much bigger process. So let's come to that, because we're still in these early days, like we're literally like 2001 in terms of the internet.

Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI, just shared in a new blog post, Reflections, last week,

“We believe that in 2025, we may see the first AI agents join the workforce and materially change the output of companies.”I'm like, hell yes, give me some agents to do things. I'll do the stuff I love, and my little AI agents will do the rest. I mean the word ‘agent' is difficult in the publishing industry, but think about little bots or little employees doing your work.

What do you think about AI agents, and how might we use whatever they might be in the future?Alicia: I'd personally love a social media agent because I am no good at keeping up with what's going on my social media accounts. They will go dark for a month and a half, and then I'll remember that I have them and should use them. So I'd love a social media agent.

I kind of have a custom GPT, a prompt set up to help me plan my social media. I've actually tried some products that try to be social media agents that I don't love.

I feel that the writing industry is going to be reluctant to take on these agents. Just based on what I've seen about how protective the writing industry has been—some people in the writing industry—about related industries, like cover artists and voice narrators, how protective they've been wanting writers who want to use AI to hire a cover artist.

They're being very insistent about that, some anti-AI folks. They're being very insistent about hiring a human narrator for your book. I think that we may see that same protectiveness over virtual assistants.

When we're talking about these agents, like a marketing agent or a social media agent, these are things that one might hire a virtual assistant for. I think we may see some pushback from this same segment of the writing industry that's opposed to using AI-generated cover art.

We're going to see some pushback saying, hey, you should hire a virtual assistant instead.

Joanna: I totally agree, but I think that people are going to use these things anyway. Especially, coming back to creative confidence again, if you are strong in what you want, then actually using these agents.

You mentioned a chain of prompts earlier, and I just have these amazing ideas about how—

I want a chain of agents doing book marketing for me.There is absolutely no way it would be affordable to have that where humans do it.

Alicia: Absolutely. Yes, affordability is a huge issue. If you weren't going to hire someone, I don't understand the objection to passing along to AI to do it for you so that it gets done, as opposed to not getting done.

I've actually used virtual assistants in the past, and it didn't work so well because I'm so particular. First of all, I felt like a jerk wanting to tweak things all the time. I don't feel like a jerk when I talk to AI. Then it wasn't saving me time because of the amount of time I was spending tweaking things.

So for me, having an AI social media agent would be something that I wouldn't hire someone for anyway. I don't think that's a requirement for using AI, but it expands what we can do, having these agents, having AI in general. I love that.

Joanna: I mean, I think —

Marketing is probably the biggest thing that people want to use these tools for. I see that one could almost have an agent per book even, who's responsible for making sure that book gets marketed.

I mean, we've got multiple books, and I find myself marketing whichever one that catches my eye, but there's so much of a backlist I just completely ignore. So I'd really love to have things surfaced from my backlist of work. Also things like having an AI—

I've just started using the ChatGPT Tasks. Have you done that?They only just started it like yesterday, the ChatGPT Tasks.

Alicia: Tasks? Oh, I have not. I noticed it a couple days ago, and instead, I started using Projects. I recently restarted my ChatGPT Pro or Plus account. I sort of switch which AI I want to use at any given time.

So right now I'm digging into the ChatGPT projects, but digging into the Tasks is definitely on my to-do list. I'm hoping I can get it to remind me of stuff that we've generated that I need to do.

Joanna: So for people listening, this is brand new. It's very, very small, as in you ask it to do a task, and it will do something for you at a certain time. So I've just set my ChatGPT so that —

Every morning it will bring me five headlines across the boundaries of archeology, religion, architecture, and genetic engineering.Basically, I gave it a list of things I'm interested in writing for my fiction, and then it'll bring me five headlines that I can click through to that will just give me ideas. So every morning, I get this really cool message, and then I go and just have a look. It just helps me think about stuff. So that's my first task, that's what I did.

Alicia: I love that. I'm totally going to steal that.

Since I'm into near future science fiction, I make a point to read technology magazines and subscribe to them, but then I have to actively go to those sources and read them. I love the idea of having them come to me like that. So I've just stolen your idea, Jo.

Joanna: Fantastic. Well, I wanted to mention it because this is an example of something where it will do some work for you and it helps you, but it's certainly not writing your book. So for people listening, please do steal that idea. That is a ChatGPT task. So we are out of time.

Where can people find you and your books online?Alicia: As we said at the beginning, I write under the name Alicia Ellis. My website is WriterAlicia.com. My social media handle across the board, across everywhere, is @WriterAlicia.

I use Instagram the most, and BlueSky I'm just getting into. Like I said, I go dark for an extended period of time, and then remember that social media exists. So WriterAlicia.com is the main place you can find me.

Joanna: Great. Well, thanks so much for your time, Alicia. That was amazing.

Alicia: Thank you, Jo. I really appreciate you. This has been fun.

The post Fair Use, Copyright, And Licensing. AI And The Author Business With Alicia Wright first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How can you build a long-term author career with multiple streams of income? How can you use technology for the grunt work and not the fun part of writing? Kevin J Anderson gives his tips.

In the intro, has TikTok gone dark? [AP]; BookVault is expanding printing to Australia; GPSR, the EU’s new General Product Safety Regulation [Self-Publishing Advice]; CreatedByHumans.ai launches in partnership with The Authors Guild for AI data licensing [Publishing Perspectives]; Simon & Schuster launches audio-first imprint featuring content from self-published authors [Publishers Weekly].

Plus, 7 Steps for How to Write Non-Fiction [Reedsy Live replay]; Publishing predictions for 2025 [Draft2Digital’s Self-Publishing Insiders]; Creative and life challenges with me and Orna Ross [Self-Publishing with ALLi]; Death Valley – A Thriller, coming in March!

Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Kevin J. Anderson is the multi-award-winning and internationally bestselling author of over 190 books across different genres, with over 24 million copies in print across 34 languages. He's also the director of publishing at Western Colorado University, as well as a publisher at WordFire Press, an editor and rock album lyricist, and he's co-written Dune books and worked on the recent Dune movies and TV show.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Adapting throughout a 40-year author career
• The importance of having a Plan B when the industry changes
• Incorporating AI into your dictation process — MacWhisper
• Utilizing AI to do the grunt work, not the fun work
• Publishing timeline restrictions with traditional publishers
• Tips for running a Kickstarter in 2025
• Finding a market for short stories
• Meeting reader expectations and delivering on promises

You can find Kevin at WordFire.com and buy his books direct at WordFireShop.com.

Transcript of Interview with Kevin J. AndersonJoanna: Kevin J. Anderson is the multi-award-winning and internationally bestselling author of over 190 books across different genres, with over 24 million copies in print across 34 languages.

He's also the director of publishing at Western Colorado University, as well as a publisher at WordFire Press, an editor and rock album lyricist, and he's co-written Dune books and worked on the recent Dune movies and TV show. So welcome back to the show, Kevin.

Kevin: It's been too long, Joanna. We should do this more often.

Joanna: Oh, yes. Well, you've got so much going on. So we've gone into your background before, so we're going to jump straight in. This, being in the author business a long time, is incredible. Tell us. You just told me about a big milestone.

Kevin: It was the new year, so I was just kind of doing my year round up and everything, and I realized that my very first professional publication was in January 1985, Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction. So that means —

40 years I've been a professional author.Joanna: Wow.

Kevin: So I look back, and it was 1995 when I quit my day job, and I have been a full-time ‘earning all my living by writing stuff' for 30 years. Which, I don't know if I live frugally. No you've met my wife, I don't live frugally. I've just been at it for a long time.

My gosh, it's not like doing the same thing every day, like working on a factory assembly line for 30 years —

This has required just keeping a lookout, and being adaptive, and reinventing myself over and over and over again.

The publishing world does not stay the same, and if you just keep doing the same thing, you'll be left by the wayside.Joanna: Well, let's just focus on that then.

You mentioned being adaptive and reinventing yourself, but I mean, this really takes a different kind of mindset, I think. I haven't been in it as long as you, but I've seen many authors disappear from the industry, perhaps because they couldn't adapt.

So how do you keep that sort of ever learning process, even when you're already so successful?

Kevin: Well, here's the thing, I am not interested in just one thing or one type of writing.

I've always got like five or six completely unrelated things going at a time.What happens is that something will be really hot one year, and then nobody wants it the next year, but I've got five other things going, so then we hope something else gets really hot.

If you are only writing steampunk vampire romances, great. They might be super hot this year, but 10 years from now, maybe people don't want to read steampunk vampire romances. I'm just making that up, just as an example.

For instance, let me go back. My big claim to fame, I had my first giant career boost was about 1992. So my first novel was published in 1988, and yes, listeners, I know it sounds like I'm really old, but I'm in good shape.

So 1988, my first novel was published. I published, I think, six or seven novels. This is trad days, there was no option for indie. Then I got a phone call from Lucasfilm saying, “Kevin, would you write Star Wars books for us?”

So, suddenly, instead of just being this author who wrote some books that maybe got some reviews, and you got advances in those days, and I maybe earned $4,000 on a book for working on it for six, eight months.

Then suddenly I was writing Star Wars books, and I was a New York Times bestselling author, and I was selling millions of copies. That was huge for me. So I did all these Star Wars books, and through Star Wars, I did Star Wars comics, and then I learned how to write comics.

That was a huge comics boom, so I was writing monthly comic books and doing all kinds of successful things like that. And because of Star Wars, they asked me to write X Files. I wrote all these movie tie-in books. I wrote the novels for like these science fiction movies that came out.

I was pulling up the drawbridge because people kept throwing books at me as fast as I could write them.

Then around maybe 10 or 11 years later, all of that media tie-in work just dried up.People might remember, every time a movie came out, you could walk into the grocery store or the airport and there would be a paperback novel of that movie. I mean, that was steady work.

I could pick up the phone saying, “I've got a month free. Give me a movie novelization.” Those things paid like $15,000 or so, and it took three or four weeks’ worth of work, but they just stopped doing that. It wasn't that I gave up on it, or I stopped being good at it or anything, it's just that entire part of the career dried up.

Then I'm not sure exactly the years, but like 2005 or 2006, the entire comic book industry imploded. My comic that used to sell maybe 500,000 copies an issue suddenly sold 50,000 copies an issue, just because people stopped buying comics. That's not anything that's in my control.

There's a whole lot of reasons why authors screw up their own careers.

I mean, we can talk about that for a while, but —

There are so many things that are out of your control so you have to have a Plan B and a Plan C, and as many plans as you have.I had all these things going, but I kept spinning other plates up. I would write mysteries and horror because then the science fiction dried up. Or I would write young adults with my wife, and then young adults suddenly became hot. I just kept trying all of the above.

You've noticed, in fact, I've given you a cup of my coffee, which is like five times stronger than what you ever would drink. I am fairly energetic, and I like to work all the time, and I keep going.

You can't put all your eggs in one basket because this industry is a roller coaster, and it just changes all the time.Now, there's a couple of other things. Well, first we mentioned, I'm the director of the Master's Degree Program in Publishing at Western Colorado University, and I started that about seven years ago. In fact, I had to go back to university myself and get an MFA after I had already published 150 books and had 57 bestsellers.

I had to get the degree because you can't teach creative writing unless you have a degree. So I got a master's degree. Now, in fact, we're taking applications for our seventh cohort now. So seven years, I've had this group of students.

I teach them grad-level publishing, both traditional and indie. I put them through the paces. They do their own books, they edit an anthology, they read the slush pile. I mean, it's all hands-on stuff.

The reason I'm mentioning all that, other than telling everybody to check out the program, but that is a completely different plan. Plan Z. I mean teaching at the university and teaching publishing, actually, it pays a monthly salary, which isn't bad.

I get health benefits. You're in the UK, so you don't know how desperate that is over here in the US that you need to have health insurance. So all of that is a completely different track. Like, okay, I'll spend a lot of time teaching graduate students Just try different things.

It's all writing adjacent. It's not like I'm working as an automobile mechanic in my day job. Everything is related to writing or publishing, but there's different aspects of it.

It's almost like playing Whack-a-Mole. One thing will pop up and be really successful, but then that will go away, and then something else will pop up. You need to make sure you have a lot of moles to pop up in the Whack-a-Mole room.

Joanna: That's fantastic. I mean, it is amazing. Also, yes, I still remember your coffee. I felt fantastic. I haven't been able to replicate that ever since, so I'm going to have to see you in Vegas for more coffee!

Kevin: One more thing I want to throw into that. I was at 20Books and Author Nation, and I was talking to lots of fabulously successful indie authors. They're fabulously successful this year, but they weren't last year.

The attitude that some people get is if they have a really, really good year, it's always going to be that way, and it isn't. So if you have a really, really good year, don't go out and buy a private jet like.

Sock your money away, build a nest egg, pay off your house, or whatever you can do. Build financial stability.People might remember MC Hammer, the guy who had some really big hits and that didn't have hits, and he spent all of his money. You don't want to be like that. If you're super successful right now, it doesn't mean you will always be super successful.

Joanna: Yes, absolutely. I always talk about investing and how I don't expect writing to pay my pension. I'm building a pension to pay my pension, and writing can be extra. [Check out my list of money books here.]

I do want to get into your writing process because, as you mentioned, you're energetic, you're in good shape, and you hike a lot. You dictate as you walk, and you've been on the show before talking about dictation.

Now, I noticed that you have a new edition out of On Being a Dictator with two co-writers, which is a book on dictation.

I wondered how your dictation process works now, and how it's changed with AI tools for speech to text.Kevin: Well, there's one other cautionary tale I want to throw in there. It's probably been 30, maybe even 40 years, that I've just dictated my writing. That's how my process works. I love just walking and dictating.

You know this, Joanna. It just gets your creative process going, it gets your thoughts going. I love hiking, and I'm outside. I've got myself so trained that I can't sit there and stare at the screen and be very creative. I have to be out walking and moving around. I go hiking and mountain climbing, and everything's wonderful.

A slight problem happened last August as I was climbing down a mountain pass in the rain on the rocks, and the mud was like Vaseline. I slipped and fell, and I broke my ankle. I had to limp a mile back to my car on this rocky trail on a broken ankle, and I was 12 weeks in a boot and then in an ankle brace.

No tears or anything, it healed just fine, but for those 12 weeks, I was unable to do writing the way I wanted to write. I couldn't really walk. I wasn't supposed to move around very much. So I had to just sit on the back porch with my digital recorder and stare off into the distance and dictate.

Man, that cut my productivity in half. It's not the same just sitting there as it is walking. So I guess my downside was that I was so dependent on being able to write while I walk, that when I suddenly couldn't walk for 12 weeks, I didn't have my own Plan B very well in in action.

I mean, I got my book done. I was a little late on it, but it was not as much fun to sit there and write.

So anyway, to your question, the dictation process hasn't really changed. I'm an outliner. I go through and I have my 90 chapters outlined, or whatever, for my big books. I know exactly what happens in chapter one and chapter two. Now, they might change. I might modify the outline, so it's not like I'm completely locked in.

So I'll take my notes for usually two chapters, sometimes three if I go out on a really long hike, and I just get into the zone. I know what's going to happen, and I just tell my story, and I dictate it.

I've gotten it so that if you just play my raw dictation tapes, they're pretty much like an audiobook. I'm pretty good at being consistent, not stumbling. So that's what I've done all along.

I would take those audio files and I download them, and I had a typing service. So I would upload them to my typing service. They loved working with me because the typing service usually works on like legal documents and medical reports and things like that, which are very boring.

They liked my zombie detective chapters, or they liked my epic fantasy chapters. So they would always fight over my stuff, and I'd get it turned around fairly quickly.

So it wasn't causing much problems. I would get their dictation back in Word files in two days maybe. So it's not really a problem, but it's not cheap. It was like a penny a word to get it done. So 100,000 word book was $1,000.

As of last February, one of my other dictators at Superstars Writing Seminar last February, she was so excited and came up saying, “Oh, you've got to try this AI transcription.”

She showed me how to do it and I played with it a little bit. What I use is called MacWhisper, but there are other transcription things out there.

[Note, Kevin said MacWrite, but he meant MacWhisper]

Suddenly I just feed my audio file into it, and it transcribes it. It takes a little while to teach the damn thing not to rewrite my words—

Joanna: Particularly with fantasy.

Kevin: All I use it for is to transcribe what I wrote, but I've got my AI trained right now, so that it pops out and it does all the drudgery work. So I don't have to put the paragraphs and the quote marks. It's kind of mind boggling to me how well it does.

For a while, you know me well, I'm not an anti-AI person, but I don't want to get people put out of their jobs. So I thought, “But my typing service, then I don't use the typing service. Those people depended on me.”

My friend said, “Kevin, if they're a decent typing service, don't you think they're already using this to do the first cut on your transcriptions?” And I went, “Oh, probably.”

Why should I pay somebody else to run the AI thing that I can just run myself?I come home, I get my dictation things, I load the files up, I go off and eat lunch, and I come back, and they're transcribed.

It has taken an entire chunk of the pain in the butt, time consuming work that has nothing to do with being creative. It, to me, has made things much more streamlined.

The book I wrote, probably 10 years ago, called On Being a Dictator, because I was really one of the first early adopters of walking and dictating. Everybody's always asking, “Well, how can you do that?” Well, I got tired of answering them, so I wrote it up. Now they have to pay five bucks to get my answer.

Joanna: It is a really useful book. I love the fact that, again, you're being adaptive, and you're changing the bits of the process you don't enjoy, or the drudgery side, or the overly expensive side for what it is, and you've changed that process. Your creative process remains the same.

It's not like the AI has changed your bit of the process, and I think that's really important.I love that you're adopting these different things.

Kevin: Well, the walking and dictating, that's the fun part. Why would I want AI to do that for me? That's the fun part.

Look, I'm one of these writers that really does enjoy writing. I mean, I love going out and doing my chapter and seeing the adventures unfold.

I have a humorous mystery horror series called Dan Shamble Zombie P. I. and we just did a Kickstarter for Book 11 on it. It's a bunch of dad jokes. It's like the Naked Gun meets the Addams Family. Those stories are so much fun to write, and I find myself like laughing out loud when I go out dictating those things.

My wife will say, “Kevin, you're writing a Dan Shamble book right now because you're always in a good mood.” I love going out and doing that. Why would I want an AI to do all the fun part? AI and computers are supposed to take the grunt work away, not the fun work away.

Joanna: Absolutely. Now, I also wanted to ask you about Kickstarter. So you've done seven, as we record this, Kickstarter projects across various genres.

What part does Kickstarter play in your author business?What are any of your tips for authors who want to use it in 2025?

Kevin: Well, it has entirely changed how I do things. Remember, I came out through trad, and in trad, you have to convince some other publisher that they should publish this project that I want to do.

That would always involve writing proposals up and trying to convince an editor or publisher that, yes, they should take a chance on this project or that project. Then they would pay you in advance, and that's what I would live on while I wrote the book.

Indie is entirely different. You don't get paid anything until you publish it and you start earning sales and royalties.

Well, Dan Shambles is a good example because I love this series. It was with a traditional publisher, and they did the first four books in the series. Let's just say that we didn't really see eye to eye.

I do my own marketing. As you know, I've been doing this for a long time, and I kind of know what works and what doesn't. So this is a fast and funny series. You read one in a couple of sittings, and then you want the next one.

I'm a fast writer, so they bought the first three books, and I said, “Great, let's bring them out like every six months.” Then they went, “Oh, no, we can't do that. It has to be a year and a half apart.”

Well, but this is a fast series, you don't want a year and a half. So we didn't see eye to eye on that.

So then I wrote a standalone story. Like, here's my original, just an introduction to Dan Shamble. It's a standalone mystery. So I wrote it, and I was going to publish it myself, upload it before the first novel came out. Like, here's an appetizer. You can read this free story and then get interested in the series.

So I wrote it, I was going to publish that. They got all bent out of shape, “No, no, no, we have to publish it.”

So I'm like, “Alright. I don't know that you know anything about ebooks, but okay.” So I gave them the story, but they, of course, couldn't release the story before the book was published. They released the story a year later, before Book Two was published.

This is audio, so you can hear the sound of me slapping my forehead. Then the book comes out as $15 as a trade paperback. It was $15 for an ebook and $15 for the print book. I said, “That's insane. You put the ebook at like $5, or something like that.”

They said, “Well, we don't want to cut into our print sales.” Well, it's apples and oranges. The ebook readers are going to buy the ebook, and the print book readers are going to buy the print book. So they said that their ebook sales were disappointing. Well, duh.

Joanna: That's because they're so expensive!

Kevin: So anyway, after four books of that—and I am going to answer your question about Kickstarters after all this, I promise. So they did four books, and I got the rights back.

I released a short story collection because I'd written a bunch of these other short stories, and that came out, and it did okay, and I reprinted them, and they did okay. But I'm writing Dune novels, and I'm doing these really big projects that, frankly, paid a lot.

My re-issues of the Dan Shamble books were okay, but they weren't huge hits. I really wanted to continue the series, it's just there was no real incentive to do so.

Then my friend Dean Wesley Smith, who's run a lot of Kickstarters, said, “Kevin, you should run a Kickstarter for it.” I had this attitude of, well, Kickstarters are for whiny authors that don't have any money and they're begging for money. He said, no, you got it completely wrong.

He's right. I had it completely wrong.

It's not for whiny authors begging for money. It's a way for you to connect with your fans, to give your real fans a chance to get like a backstage club. I mean, my Kickstarter people get their books three, four months before anybody else can get them.

They might get expanded editions, or they might get separate things. So, okay, I decided to try it. If anybody wants a new Dan Shamble novel, which I wanted to write, and the fans kept asking for.

So I ran a Kickstarter for another Dan Shamble novel, and bam, it funded in like 30 minutes. It ended up like 15 times what we asked for, and it raised more than triple what the trad publisher was paying. I went, oh, okay, this is pretty nice.

I had another series that I had done, the first book of it was called The Dragon Business. 47 North published it. It was sort of like The Princess Bride meets Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. It was a fun fantasy. It did okay, but not great.

47 North is Amazon's print imprint for science fiction and fantasy. Surprise, surprise, brick and mortar bookstores don't want to carry books that are published by Amazon. So the sales for that weren't as great as they expected.

I got the rights back, and I wanted to do a sequel to it because I wanted to build that into a fun fantasy series. So I thought, oh, well, why don't we see if the Kickstarter people want a sequel to that?

Again, I ran a Kickstarter for it, and again, more than triple what the trad publisher was paying. Remember, I'm already an indie author and an indie publisher. So I know how to publish a book. It's not like this is a learning experience for me.

Joanna: Just on that, just to bring you back to Kickstarter for newer authors. I mean, obviously you're talking about established series, so people might think, well, there's already readers for that. What is different about Kickstarter?

Are there things that newer authors who don't have such an extensive career could use it for?Kevin: Well, actually, it's almost the opposite answer, because this is really designed for people who do have a platform, who do have a fan base, because you can tap into them.

If you're brand new and don't have followers, you have to find some way to get people interested in your project.

Maybe it's connected to a very interesting subject. In fact, one of my grad students right now is a recovering alcoholic, and she's got a whole bunch of self-help books on how to overcome addiction.

She's not famous. Nobody really knows who she is, but she's plugged into this network of people who are trying to help one another through situations like this. So she's able to get attention for that particular subject.

I'm going to run a Kickstarter this spring with my grad students because the poetry concentration director also runs this big Writers Workshop in Montana, I think, which is for indigenous writers, and it's taught by all indigenous instructors.

There are a lot of foundations for the arts supporting them, but they never have enough money to run the workshop. So we're going to run a Kickstarter for them, and we will be tapping into a lot of people to say help support this indigenous workshop.

I haven't run it yet, so we don't know if it's successful, but I'm pretty confident it's going to be. My students are going to help promote it. Now, they're not famous, but when you have this good cause that you're promoting it for, then you can get attention that way.

If you're just, “I'm Bill, brand new indie author. Here's my short story collection. Here's my Kickstarter,” you may be starting too soon for that.

The steps of doing a successful Kickstarter, you have to have a platform and an outreach and some reason for people to want to do it.Also, you need to be able to convince your backers that you will actually deliver on what you promise.

I've supported probably 50 Kickstarter campaigns, and probably 20 of them I never got the stuff I paid for because they just don't know how to produce it.

So don't let that happen to you. Make sure you know what you're doing.

At 20Books, last year or the year before, I was talking to the head of publishing at Kickstarter. She was kind of rolling her eyes and shaking her head, saying that they've had people that ran campaigns for a fantasy book, and the campaign was successful.

Then the person wrote her and said, “Okay, my campaign was successful. Now, how do I publish a book?”

Joanna: Well, we generally say now—

You should have written your book before you do a campaign.That's the advice, I think.

Kevin: I mean, even me, everybody knows that I'm going to be reliable. I've written 190 books. If I say I'm going to write one, I'm going to do it. But I feel that you want to deliver your stuff fairly soon, while people remember that they're still waiting for it.

How many people are really still waiting for the next Game of Thrones book? I've given up on that.

Also, so I write my book before—either completely done, or at least the draft is done and I'm editing it—before I run the campaign. I want to be able to turn it over and just deliver the books within a month or two. I always under promise and over deliver.

So right now, I've got the Dan Shamble campaign that ended in the first week of November. I promised them books by March, we are sending them out this week because I got it done faster.

There are times where there are delays, especially if you're doing, say, bespoke editions that have to be shipped from China or something. Those are things you can't count on. I always really want to have everything done and ready.

The other thing is —

I plan maybe two, possibly three Kickstarter campaigns a year. I don't want to go to my backers and say, “Hey, support my next one,” if I haven't delivered the previous stuff yet. You want to be reliable. Make sure you're not doing it too soon. There are pieces you need to put in place.

Here's an example. So I'm writing Dune books and things. Those go to the trad publisher because they have a much bigger footprint in brick and mortar stores and things. Kickstarter lets me do the projects that are my passion projects, really big things that I want to do that might not fit with trad publishing.

My biggest campaign ever was last year. I've written a lot of short stories over my career, and I thought, well, I just want to collect my short stories. In fact, I ended up with a whole lot of short stories, like 150 of them or so.

I even found the very first thing that I wrote when I was eight years old. I typed it on my dad's typewriter. It was this little three-page story about a mad scientist making monsters. I found that one, and so I included that in there.

So that meant that by putting the story when I was eight years old, I could do this short story collection that covered 50 years of my career. For each one of those stories, I wrote a little intro of, here's how I wrote this one, or here's how I wrote that one.

So it was three volumes of science fiction, two volumes of fantasy, two volumes of horror/dark fantasy. 750,000 words, all told.

Joanna: Wow.

Kevin: This is a huge job just putting all these stories together. So here's the point, and yes, I do have one, and I eventually get around to it. So I put all these things together, and I went to my New York literary agent. I knew the answer, I just wanted to do it.

So I went to him, and this is the guy who sold million dollar contracts for me, and I said, “I'm going to do a seven volume collection of my reprint short stories, and I want to do them all in hardcover. Who could you sell that to?”

It was like silence on the phone. He said, “Well, nobody. Nobody would want that.

“Nobody publishes short story collections. Nobody buys them. Nobody wants them.” So I said, “Okay, thanks.” I ran a Kickstarter, and we did $80,000. So, hello, my fans do want it. With the Kickstarter, it's between creator and the reader. There aren't 25 other middlemen between it. There aren't all these other people telling you, no, you can't do it. So it's just a direct me and the readers.

I guess the point of that was, this was a project I wanted to do. Without Kickstarter, I could never, ever have done it.

I mean, it took a lot of time and a lot of work, and it was expensive to do those books. So if I didn't have the money from Kickstarter, I could not have seen that project through.

Joanna: Well, I did want to ask you about short stories. Doing short story collections was one of my reasons that I wanted you to come back on the show.

In the indie space, people think, well, why would I bother writing short stories? I mean, there are obviously still short story markets, and lots of them, if you focus on that. But many indie authors are like, why would I bother? So, thoughts on short stories?

Kevin: Getting back to the long career retrospective. When I started out, every author's career path was that you wrote a bunch of short stories, you published them in the numerous magazines, and you built up a little bit of a following, and then you graduated to writing novels. Short stories were your training ground.

That's not the case anymore because there just really aren't nearly as many short story markets, and even then, you might not get it published.

The big advantage indies have is —

If you write a short story featuring your series character, well, then you use that as a reader magnet. You put it in your newsletter, or you use it as, “Get a free story when you sign up for my mailing list,” or something like that.

So short stories have a very good purpose right now, as you use them as like carrots to get people to check out your series. Or you can use it to maybe test out a new character if you want to. Always, short stories are a great way to experiment as a writer.

I mean, it takes me a couple of days to do a short story. So if you think, well, maybe I should try dark fantasy and see how it works. Well, write a short story and see if it works, rather than writing a novel, which is going to take you however long it takes you to write a novel. So it's a training ground, and that's very good to do.

Today, I would look at short stories as an adjunct or as supplementary things, rather than your main focus. They're kind of like the garnish on a plate instead of the steak.

There are many ways to use them. You can swap short stories. With other writers that have newsletters, you give them a story and they give you a story, so then you can get their readers to read your character and maybe pick up your series. That's where I would do it.

The Kevin J. Anderson Short Fiction Library, that came from people who were already interested in my stuff. If you're brand new and you don't have a big following already, I'm not exactly sure that that would be my main focus, doing an original story collection.

Joanna: I will come back on that. One of the reasons I'm thinking of doing this on Kickstarter is because I have bought so many on Kickstarter.

I buy a lot of short story collections from people, I don't know who they are, because I like reading short story collections.So it's one of those things that when you find a tiny niche of people who are interested in a certain type of product, then there are people there. So that's actually why I was thinking of even doing one on Kickstarter, because I am part of that audience. So I guess it's a different angle.

Kevin: But you do have a following, and you do have a platform.

Joanna: That's true.

Kevin: Now for you, though, one of the interesting enticements might be to do a short story collection paired with one of your writing books. Like my grad students, we assign them your Your Author Business Plan book, and they read it every spring and build their business plan based on your book.

So you might want to do, here's my story collection and here's my—if you have a new book on writing advice or something.

Joanna: Or writing short stories. Yes, absolutely.

Kevin: If you have one on writing short stories, that would be an ideal pairing. Like, here's my short story collection and here's my book on how to write short stories. That's genius. That would work. Brilliant.

Joanna: I think that's what we think around these Kickstarter projects, is it's not like on Amazon where if you pair something and your algorithm goes horribly wrong because those readers don't normally buy that kind of thing. Whereas—

With Kickstarter campaigns, you can put all these things in and it doesn't mess up some algorithm somewhere.Kevin: Exactly. So, here's the other thing. With doing a Kickstarter and raising money that way, that is completely separate from your indie publishing.

So when I get a Dan Shamble Kickstarter, and those books go out—again, they're going out to all my Kickstarter backers in the next week or two—the official release of this book to the public is like April.

So then we put up preorders on Amazon, and then everybody else buys them.

The Kickstarter effectively gave me my book advance, like I used to get from trad publishers, and then the sales go on sale to the general public because most people don't buy their books through Kickstarter. It's a special audience.

So most people are going to wait for it to come out on Amazon. So then you basically start all over from scratch. But hey, I just got a whole bunch of extra money up front to do this project. I am clearly a convert, as you can tell.

Joanna: Absolutely. Now, we're almost out of time, but I want to come back to something you said earlier.

You said, “How do authors screw up their own careers?” Then you said, “Well, we could talk about that if you'd like.” So I was thinking that, yes, I would like to talk about that.

How might authors screw up their careers? Or, I guess, how can they avoid that?Kevin: Well, my biggest piece of advice is, don't be an asshole. Well, first off, I have a policy of I do not make political postings on any of my social media. That is a great way to get rid of half of your readers is to start spouting something.

I wasn't joking, don't be an asshole. Authors talk. Reader's talk. If you're like this total jerk, people are like, I like the books, but I can't stand the person, so I'm not going to buy anymore. So just don't do that.

Deliver your stuff when you say you're gonna deliver it.

If you promised everybody your next book is coming out in April, well, don't make it five years later. I mean, obviously there are extenuating circumstances, you can have a medical issues or some other things.

Prove to be reliable and deliver what you say you're going to deliver. I like networking, and networking works the opposite way too. If you screw somebody over, everybody else is going to know about it.

In the indie author community, just look at all the people who come to Superstars, or to Author Nation, or 20Books, or these various things. People will know if you stop being ethical and reliable.

I have a policy of I just don't ever talk smack about other authors. I was on a panel once where it was about bestselling books or something, and everybody was just bitching and whining about the Twilight books or about Hugh Howey's books. They didn't like them, or Dan Brown's.

I just went, “Guys, tens of millions of people bought them, so there was something done right. Learn from it rather than complain about it.” I think we're all colleagues. Like, Joanna, you're successful. It doesn't make me any less successful.

I like to read books too. So just because somebody's selling books, doesn't cost me anything. I believe in the rising tide lifts all boats. I like being supportive and helpful, and I do my best not to be an asshole and help other people. It's karma points. It comes back at you.

It also works the opposite way. If you're this very negative person, and you constantly screw things up, you're alienating your readers, you're alienating your fans, you're being a jerk on social media, well, that's a great career suicide.

Just look at some of the actors who have had careers that have instantly crashed and burned because of some stupid thing they did. So don't do the stupid thing.

Joanna: Well, that's really interesting. So you've basically gone for the personality as opposed to the craft, which I think is really interesting. I was kind of expecting you to say they stop writing or they stop marketing, or something like that.

Kevin: Well, obviously if you stop writing. If you do a series—and I joked earlier about Game of Thrones—I mean, there's a contract there. If you started reading this book, you invested lots of time in this series, and I don't know what it is now, 10 years, 12 years since the last one. I'm not waiting for it anymore.

I loved those books. I'm not waiting for it anymore. If you do a series and you're producing them regularly, and you just stop, the reader's attention span is not long because there are so many other things to read. Don't expect them to be like pining by the telephone, waiting for somebody to ask you out on a date.

Readers will move on if you're not producing things. Now, again, we get back to the longevity of a career. It is exhausting to write lots of books a year, and most people can't keep doing that for 20 years or 30 years.

That's one of the reasons, especially indie authors, where readers expect you to write several books a year. Some indie authors I know are writing a book a month. I couldn't do that for any long period. Well, I couldn't do that probably for a single year.

You start building expectations, and when you fail to meet those expectations, they will leave you very quickly. That's why you should have Plan Bs.

If you really, really can't stand writing your steampunk vampire romance series after book number 29, well, make sure that you have some other series you're starting and building up.

Well, Hugh Howey's got several series that are going. Michael Anderle has all kinds of series, and Craig Martelle has all kinds of series. You don't just put all your eggs in one basket. You need to have Plan B and Plan C, to circle around to what I started with.

Joanna: Well, that is fantastic.

Where can authors find you, and your books, and everything you do online?Kevin: My website is WordFire.com. My store WordFireShop.com. After COVID, I realized I needed to sell books direct, and that's doing very well for me. Facebook, just look up my name, Kevin J. Anderson. I've got a couple of different pages, and you'll find it.

Also on WordFire.com, there's a whole section about the graduate program in publishing, if anybody's interested in becoming a Master of Publishing with the piece of paper to prove it.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Kevin. That was great.

Kevin: Thanks, Joanna. I always love talking to you.

The post Building A Long Term Author Business, Dictation, Kickstarter, and Short Story Collections With Kevin J Anderson first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How can you balance creativity with business in order to have a profitable, long-term author career? What were the successes and challenges of the Author Nation conference? Joe Solari shares his perspective.

In the intro, the money episode [Ink In Your Veins]; WISE for multi-currency banking; creative planning tips for 2025 [Self~Publishing Advice]; Surprising Trends Authors Can’t Ignore in 2025 [Novel Marketing Podcast]. Plus, an update on Death Valley, A Thriller, and reflections on seeing live theatre vs online & stream/subscription models.

This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Joe Solari helps authors build great businesses through books, courses, and podcasting, as well as strategy and operations consulting. He's also the managing director of Author Nation, the biggest conference for indie authors in the world.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Maintaining sustainable balance between writing and marketing
• Creating an author business that fulfills you
• Utilizing your time effectively in 2025
• Navigating social media and business goals
• Learning to say no and focusing on what you really want
• Author Nation 2024 Highlights
• The logisitics of running an author conference
• Catering to different experience levels at an author conference

You can find Joe at JoeSolari.com and AuthorNation.live.

Transcript of Interview with Joe SolariJoanna: Joe Solari helps authors build great businesses through books, courses, and podcasting, as well as strategy and operations consulting. He's also the managing director of Author Nation, the biggest conference for indie authors in the world. So welcome back to the show, Joe.

Joe: Thanks for having me on again. I really enjoy the time we get to spend together. It seems like we talk more on the show than we do at events that we meet each other at.

Joanna: Absolutely. Well, we're often both very busy. You've been on the show a couple of times before—and I'll link to those in the show notes—so we're just going to jump in today.

Now, as we head into 2025, authors are assessing their priorities for the year. Now, in your experience helping authors build profitable businesses—

How can we balance writing and marketing so that both are sustainable?Joe: That's such an awesome question. I think a lot of folks that are used to hearing me on your podcast or other podcasts are going to think that I'm going to go right into talking about profitability or budgeting, but I'm going to actually get a little different approach for you on this whole thing.

Let me give you some context first, and that is—

Where do you have your best ideas?Joanna: Personally, a lot of my ideas come from traveling and places, in particular. So I have to go and visit things and input in order to have ideas.

Joe: Yes, and that doesn't surprise me. I've asked the question of a lot of creatives, and what I've discovered in asking that question is there tends to be two different things that come up. Like, it's when I do something like go on walks. Or a lot of times it's things like driving or a shower.

Why that is, there's science behind this, and it's you have two distinct networks in your brain that you need to use for creativity.

One is the default mode network. That's what your body goes into when you daydream. It's when you were sitting in class and getting bored by your teacher, and it would make you go off and think into your imaginary world. That's a natural place for you to go.

The other system is your executive functioning system, which is what helps you focus and get words out and hit deadlines.

They're two distinct systems that sometimes will overlap, like in a venn diagram. When that happens, that's your flow state where you feel like the ideas are coming and you're getting them down on paper.

The interesting thing about that is that it’s completely counter to what you're told to do as an entrepreneur and hustle culture. You're just supposed to produce. You're supposed to produce words. You're supposed to sit in a chair. You're supposed to produce.

So what you do is, when you are only focused on that one side, the executive function side, you detach yourself and you distance yourself from your creative well.

So my answer to your question is that — I suggest that authors start to build into their process in 2025 more time to tap into that default mode network and spend time thinking about how they can spend some real quality time and —

Protect that creative space, because that's where all your good ideas come from.When you feel like you're being blocked, it's because you're disconnecting yourself from that default mode network. So it's sound business advice, in the sense of there's this process that's core to your business that we need to get more efficient and think about how we can improve its performance.

Joanna: I really like that, and I feel like this is something I've always done is that I separate my time into creative time and business and marketing time. I find like I can't do both in the same time period.

When I had a day job, first thing in the morning—you know, I'm a morning person—so I'd write before going to work. Then in the evening, I could do business and marketing. This podcast was started after my work, back in the day.

So perhaps that fits into what you're saying is that you have to schedule different types of time, some for input and creativity and thinking and not doing much sometimes. Then other time for business and marketing.

I feel like maybe authors sometimes try to do everything all at once, and maybe that's why it doesn't work.Joe: Absolutely, you're really getting into the core of this.

There are different systems, and they have to be honored in different ways, and you need them both. We're on The Creative Penn show, come on, we have got to talk about creativity. It's like, we forget that's the source of the product.

We get very focused on, oh, it's a business. You have this product you have to put out. You have these customers you need to serve. All that stuff, it has to be done, but what you asked was —

How do we make this sustainable process between the marketing and the writing?What I'm getting at is there's some things that we can do to make that process easier. What it means is understanding that this isn't up and to the right like a business chart of sales. It's an undulating cycle.

Let me give you another context for this. If we look at creativity as a profession, you have this natural talent as a creator. We've identified that you've got this active imagination, and you love to spend time in the story world, and it's fulfilling to you. That's no different than if we noticed some natural athletic talent.

So what would we do around that if we saw that you were a really good tennis player? Well, we would work on your endurance and your speed. We would work on racket skills. We would work on all these different things to supplement that natural talent.

One of the big things we would also do for an athlete is we would have a recovery cycle. We wouldn't just say after you finished winning Wimbledon to go play the French Open. We'd put you in an ice bath, we'd stretch you out, we'd go into some kind of a process that would get you to be ready for the next time you play.

I think that goes, again, back to that first question of yours, what could you do to make 2025 better? It's like, how do you build a recovery process?

How do you give yourself that space to let the well refill?There's a lot of things right now in the world that are really, really detrimental to you refilling the well. We're talking about this really powerful default mode network and that time where you just need to be bored to let it kick in.

What do we do? Well, we get on social media, and we doom scroll, and we do a bunch of stuff to fill in that time that really deteriorates. It does two things, right.

You lose that time that you need, and it deteriorates your capacity because you're doing really horrible things to your neuro-chemical system with these dopamine hits from scrolling.

I've been doing this research, and it's kind of scary to see what could potentially happen with this. It's destroying all this creative capacity out there that we need to have new ideas come up, whether it's a new story or the cure for some disease.

Joanna: Yes, it is tough. In fact, one of the things I do is try to be active in my open time. So you said there be bored, and being bored is really hard, as you say. So I go for a walk often, and going for a walk means I can't look at my phone while I'm out walking. I'm looking at nature.

You mentioned the shower. We cannot stay in the shower for hours at a time, but I can walk for hours at a time. Most people, wherever they are, there should be somewhere you can go and walk.

Although, perhaps not at a gym. I don't know, a gym is also very stimulating in terms of the screens. Particularly in your American gyms, there are so many screens everywhere.

This is also really hard for people, and I know there will be people saying, “but social media is how I”—not me particularly—”but how I might be selling books.”

So this is the hard part, right? This is what it comes down to. I love what you're saying, but then people are like—

“But I have to be on social media because how else do I meet my business goals?”So let's talk about that, about the business side as well.

Joe: So again, you have to put it into context. So let's use this perfect example of a bunch of folks out there that are listening that are seeing really amazing success with their strategies on TikTok. So they're going to say what you just said, “I have to be on this platform.”

It's like, yes, you do, but how are you on the platform? Are you on this platform to develop meaningful relationships with your audience? Because also this thing is about, how do you make your business fulfill you?

If it's just about hitting business goals, that gets you on that hedonic treadmill where you always have to be hitting goals to feel like something's happening. Versus like, no, I'm really trying to help an audience connect with work that's meaningful to me and will be meaningful to them.

So in that process, I need to carve out some specific time to be on TikTok, and I need to do these specific things on TikTok. That's all executive functioning kind of stuff.

Now, they may be like, “Well, I need to come up with some creative stuff for TikTok.” Well, maybe you need to spend some time in that default network space to think of those ideas.

Just sitting for an hour and a half scrolling on TikTok instead of being on a walk or doing something that gets you into that space, is going to hurt your business, not help your business. So I think that —

You have to really think through those compartments of social media and where it makes sense. Then you get into the whole other side of how social media can make us get into comparison and all kinds of other horrible things. We could talk about that for hours.

Joanna: Yes, and it's interesting because we also do have to make decisions about time. You mentioned time, and we only have limited time. You and I are older now, and time gets more and more limited, unfortunately.

When TikTok blew up, and I've looked at it several times, and every time I go, “I choose not to do this because my time doing other things is more valuable.” Like I'm doing calisthenics and practicing doing handstands. At this point in my life, practicing doing handstands is more important than TikTok!

Other people make a different decision, but I think it's very interesting. So this is one thing is we have limited time, and we have to make a choice over the time. Also, we do have to schedule downtime.

What are some of the mistakes that you see authors making?Again, back on the profitable or for business, but also the fulfillment that you mentioned?

Joe: So I think that—and again, this plays off of what you just said—is we think that we have to do it all.

Whatever comes into our feed or starts to trend with whatever place where we're getting information, it's like, “Oh, I have to do this thing now. Like, I have to do TikTok. It's obvious that I've got to do TikTok because I see these people that are making all this money at this.”

To your point, you chose to do something different. I think this is —

One of the hardest things in any business is saying no. The reality is, if you look at something like venture capital or private equity, they're in the business of saying no.

They have a process that they evaluate what they're going to invest in and what they're going to do because they know they have a finite amount of time and capital. If they don't say no to 99% of the things that come over the transom to them, they're just going to run out of money and have bad investments.

So they have to have a system where they evaluate what is the best use of time and money. The reality is that for authors, that time component is the real finite resource.

There's so many authors that have figured out how to get a business ramped up and make money with no money. Like this is the land of bootstrapping, right? Whereas a lot of other businesses, you can't even get into the business unless you have capital.

So here's one where people have figured out ways to do that, but if you're not looking at the best use of your time. What we talked about earlier is now we're saying you need to think about a chunk of that time in a different space that isn't necessarily doing businessy stuff. That means you have less time, right?

How do we best use that time in 2025?I think that you're better to pick one or two things and really invest and do them well than try to do 10 things halfheartedly.

Joanna: So how do people pick one or two things?

I remember this, back in 2009 when I started this podcast, I'd never done a podcast before. It was very, very new, actually, in podcasting era. I was like, I'm just going to try this. At the same time, I started a YouTube channel, again, quite early on in that time.

Although I still have a YouTube channel, it didn't become the thing that I enjoyed, or that actually is part of a profitable part of my business, but I didn't know that before I started.

So if people listening, they're like, okay, well, should I try TikTok? Or should I do Facebook ads? Or should I use a subscription service? How do they know, or—

How do authors pick the one or two things that might work for them and might help make their author business profitable?Joe: Again, this is where you have to kind of step back and ask yourself these questions. What is my natural curiosity leading me to? When do I feel that it's being fulfilled? So we can just use your examples.

Of course, you're going to want to try these things as they come up. You're going to see, oh, this is a new thing, but what is it that I want to get out of it? So from a personal standpoint, am I feeling energy come to me?

Am I getting something out of it? Or is it feeling like it's draining me? You have to honor that.Number two is, how does it align with your business practices? When you step into something like TikTok, there's the how-to. There's courses. There's all kinds of people that have talked on shows like mine about how to do this, but is that the audience you're looking for. Is that the kind of interaction you want to have with your audience?

Using you as an example, you've been very deliberate and said no in instances that probably have pissed some people off. It's because you understand that in the long run, it's not going to work out well for anybody because you're not going to be getting fulfilled. Is that a fair statement?

Joanna: Oh, yes, but I also annoy myself sometimes. I'm like, why can't I do video? As you say, curiosity, and also what drains you. Video drains me, and it always has. Some people say, oh, it's because you're getting older. I'm like, no, it always, always has.

Also, I don't listen to music. I don't do noise. I like silence. I like quiet. I think, as you say—

We have to tap into these things and learn to say no, otherwise you can burn out.Joe: I think when we go back to thinking about where your creative well gets filled is that them going to a coffee shop is a place of creativity. I go there and I'm eavesdropping on people's conversations, and thinking about the coffee, like it's not a place where I can do that.

So part of this idea is for you, as a listener on the show, thinking about these ideas, what is it for you? Not, what is the community saying?

There's no shortage of ideas on ways to make money as an author or to monetize your creativity, and there'll be more coming.

There's going to be a bazillion new ideas that come with innovation, you're not going to be able to do them all.You need to be really deliberate and pick the ones that do two things, in my view, and that is to connect you with the audience that you want to connect with. Because, again, if this is about making money, you need to have people that see that your creative content is worth more than the cold, hard cash in their wallet.

Then two, it fulfills you, and fulfills you in the right way.

Okay, what do I mean by that? Not that it makes you get your ego pumped up or gives you a bunch of status in fake things like rank, but that it fulfills you by like, “I am now truly in touch with my meaning.”

It helps you understand why you're on this planet. This helps you to feel like a full human being. That's the part that I think is getting lost in this whole hustle culture, is that you're going to feel good when you hit this particular monumental thing like making seven figures. No, you won't. You won't.

I know this because I've worked with so many people that have done that, and they come to me and they're like, “I've worked harder. I'm more burnt out. I have the mantle. I won the trophy. I sold a million dollars’ worth of books this year. But you know what? I can't keep this up.”

What ends up happening is —

The ones that are successful going forward find themselves in a place where they end up becoming most likely more profitable, selling less books, but doing something they love. They find that sweet spot because they've changed their focus.

They've gotten to be like, “Hey, wait a minute. If I do some things with my business, tune some things up here, I can make more money than I've ever made before. I can feel good and I can tap into things that I was missing out.”

“I can connect with my family more. I can travel more. I can feel that I can leave certain parts of my business and not think that it's all going to crash into a heap.”

Joanna: Yes, exactly. That's why we were emphasizing ‘profitable.' I know you talk about this a lot because a lot of the numbers that you can see, screenshots on various social media or whatever, are the above-the-line figures. They're not necessarily the profit figures. They're the income or the revenue, but not the profit.

So that's where we like to focus. Profitable life, I think in general, just having a happier life.

I want us to get into Author Nation now. 2024 was the first year, and I was there. It was fantastic. I bought my ticket for 2025 before I even left Vegas. So I was one of those that as you were talking about it, I went on and bought it. Let's just, first of all, from your perspective—

What went well about the Author Nation conference?From, I guess, you and from Suze and the team, but also from feedback that you got.

Joe: Oh, well, I don't even know where to start. There's so much. I think the funny thing was, so many people were like, “Oh, you have to be really stressed out. There's got to be a lot of stuff going on.” The feeling was more like being the host of a party or your wedding.

Like you have this big event that you've planned, you want to make sure everyone's having a good time, but it wasn't like there were fires to really put out.

We had been working on this thing for over a year. We have a team that really did an amazing job at putting together the programming and building a system like that. Like people don't understand this is where my creativity really was able to come out and take a business and work on it.

The show as a whole was surprising to people at the things that we focused in on. Like, we spent a lot of time with the space. We made sure that the space was open and inviting. We had rented a bunch of furniture, couches and stuff, so people had these conversation pits to hang out in.

That came out of observing other shows that tended to, in my view, make authors feel anxious and confined and claustrophobic. So we didn't want that to be the case.

We wanted to make sure that there was different facets for authors. So the folks that were really there to kind of fill their well with information, we had a lot of great sessions. Yours was a great example of that.

We also know that there's a lot of people that they never go into those sessions. They just need a place to hang out, and do deals, and talk, and network. So we had different spaces for that. We had, like I said, these conversation pits. We also had a bunch of tables around where people could sit and work together.

All of that stuff was designed to hit the needs that we kept hearing people say when we asked them about what they want out of a show. Now, the feedback we've gotten, that's the other thing—we built a system so we were able to collect reviews off of every single session and about the overall show.

So we ended up with 866 reviews of sessions. We reviewed on two things: were the objectives clear and where the objectives met? We had, on the first one, it was like a 4.6 out of 5, and the objectives met was like a 4.55.

So we had a really, really good feedback system, and we had good feedback. The great thing was, is we then—like, I'm sure you were sent your reviews.

Joanna: Yes, that was great. Yes, really good.

Joe: So it's funny, when we did that, there was some people that, again, we can all be self-conscious. It's like, no, those aren't bad reviews. You got to filter out some of this stuff.

Joanna: Yes, for sure. Actually, this would be a tip for people if they are coming, if you're using that app again, I didn't make the most of that app until towards the end of the week. Then I realized that there were slides on there from people's talks.

If you missed a talk, you could go get the slides, and you could sync it with your laptop — and all of that kind of thing, as well as doing the ratings. So, yes, that app, I think next time I'll be using that. Are you going to use that same app again?

Joe: Yes, we're going to use that again. I actually had somebody come up at the show that's a programmer, and he talked about programming something specific for us. So we're going to look at that as a potential, but the idea is having something like that.

We were really happy with the tool we used. The only thing we were hoping to add into that was better group communication, so a way for authors that are there to have a single platform to network between themselves and message each other. So that's the one thing that we're trying to figure out.

All those pieces, we spent a lot of time on. If you noticed, we have a numbering system that tells you what room something is in, what day it is, what session during the day.

That all feeds back into our system because this year what we're really working on is all the stuff that was kind of manual processes that we hand carried through the building. It's like we're automating all that stuff. We're using agents and tools that are now available to us.

So you'll see this, for folks that are submitting to speak, that starts you in a process that will eventually feed all the information into the contract we send you. Then that'll push information into our system so that our folks don't have to be typing stuff in.

Joanna: That is good. I actually did submit mine—because I knew we were talking—I was like, right, I'm going to submit my talk. So I did actually go through that process, and I noticed it was very organized, and there were all the things I could put in. So that was that was super useful.

On that, I guess you mentioned there the automations and agents and AI. There was a lot of AI sessions at Author Nation 2024. There was also a lot on direct sales. There was lots on Kickstarter and people selling on Shopify. These are some big trends that are coming or are here.

What are your thoughts on some of these big, overarching trends, like AI and direct sales? Will you continue to cover them in the show in 2025?

Joe: I think we probably had the single most comprehensive track on AI that anyone's ever put together in the creative community, while at the same time having a massive amount of information on how to be an artisan.

So the idea for us isn't to be one thing to everyone, other than the place you come to get exposed to everything.

The idea that there's one way to do this is ludicrous. This kind of gets to some of the stuff you and I have talked about—how we do things today is very different than how we've done things in the past.

As a human being, if you're going to be an author for 30 years, you're going to change. You're going to make decisions. Hopefully, you're getting to a point where you're saying there's some stuff I'm not going to do.

I think one of the best examples of all of bringing that change is we had Johnny Truant at the show, one of the co-authors of Write. Publish. Repeat.

Here is like the OG of like fast publishing doing a session on being an artisan and how his focus is now on creating meaningful relationships around his work with a small, intimate group of fans that can support him.

There's two parts of that. One is like, how does he do that? But also that bigger message of like, yes, I've matured and changed what I think is important for me to be fulfilled. So that's what we want the show to be about.

The hard part can be is if you're newer and you come in, it's like, oh my god, there's too much stuff on the buffet. That's our responsibility to try to help people manage and absorb this content.

Joanna: Yes, and on that, you have tracks, don't you, for people who haven't written a book yet. For different genres, for people like me who want the much more advanced content, but—

There's stuff for people who haven't even written a book yet, as well.Joe: Yes, it's so that if you've never written a book, you can come.

Frankly, if you haven't written a book, you're in that part of your publishing career, there isn't a better thing to do. Why is that? Well, there's more people on the planet in that one room for that five days that have done what you want to do than anywhere else.

So why not be there and ask them questions, and learn from them, and see what is their way of doing it. Because in the beginning, you just need to get that book out. Then you can start understanding some deeper things about what your business will look like.

You and I are a long way away from that first published book, but that was a massive endeavor. We forget about that sometimes of what a massive endeavor that first book is.

So once that does happen, then it's like, oh, well, that wasn't that bad. I can do that again. Now, how do I want to do that? How do I want to connect with people? There's so many different ways now, that's the other thing. It used to be, oh, well, you just have to get on Amazon.

Well, no, maybe for you, the best thing because of your writing style and the way you work is that you're building your business on Kickstarter. So we'll have people there, like we have the Kickstarter people, right?

Joanna: Yes, Oriana.

Joe: What we're doing is, now that we've gotten the first one under our belt, we're going out to folks. I had a conversation with Oriana just before the New Year for next year. Like, okay, what if in our online community, you come in and coach a cohort of people to do Kickstarters?

So instead of having a session at Author Nation that is educational, “hey, you should do Kickstarters,” you have a session where you meet with those people and talk about what worked and didn't work in those Kickstarters that you ran over the year.

That's a whole different way that we use the idea of community and a week-long show to get the support mechanism that people really need.

Sure, we can run a great show and take out our firehose and just drowned you in ideas, but —

What happens afterwards to help you implement those ideas? The first part is what we're talking about, picking the ones to implement.

Joanna: Very important.

Joe: Sitting in front of a notebook with 60 great ideas can be paralyzing. So how do we get you to the ones that are going to have the—and it's something we talked about at the show—high impact, low effort.

Joanna: Yes, and I think —

One of my tips for people is to plan in advance. So even though it's not up there yet, towards November the schedule will be around. So people can kind of see, all right, well, what do I really want to go to?

What I had in my schedule, which I planned ages in advance because I was arranging meetings and all of that kind of thing was, this is a session I have to attend, and then there might be other sessions I'm like, that will get a two, and if I'm around, I'll go to that, and if not, I'll figure it out later.

So really, planning in advance. Then, as you say, afterwards, like reviewing your list at least a week later and seeing what still resonates from what you went through.

There might be a ton of stuff you wrote down that a week later you're not so enamored with. So I think that's really useful, is putting the extra time in to do the scheduling and then do the thinking later.

Joe: Yes, and there's two things that I want to touch on that.

The first is, is one of the areas where we recognize that we can do a better job, and that is when there were lower reviews on sessions, the trend seemed to be that we didn't do a really good job at helping the audience understand that topic.

The way we did our reviews is we also asked what level you were in as an author. Then what we would see is these stratifications where it's like, oh, look at all the high reviews from these people that were beginners, and all these low reviews from people that were advanced.

We screwed up and we made this thing seem like it was for everybody. So one of the things that Chelle and I were talking about is that if you want to get your session approved, you're going to have a higher chance of doing that saying, “This is for this specific group,” than saying, “Oh no, this is for everybody.”

We really want to make sure that we're identifying the right experience level to make that work.The second thing is, if you went to the show and you were a maniac and went to a session every time there was a session open, the best you could have seen was about 23% of the content that we put together. So I mean 70% of the sessions you miss.

Now, let's put a little math on that. You're probably not going to look at all those because of, again, what level you are. So let's say you missed half of what you should have seen. Well, that's why we're doing this whole thing about the after party that starts the 11th.

It is this idea of like, hey, we're going to have all these videos in an area. You can watch the videos that you didn't see. There's a spot where you can go and put in questions. We're going to submit those questions to the presenters, and then we're going to have hour-long Q&A sessions on Zoom to get those questions answered.

So you get a couple things out of this that never has happened at a show before. One is —

We can pull this virtual and live community together so we can make a more cohesive author community. Two is, you get a way to get more value out of those sessions that you missed.

Three is, even with a session you went to, you now had time to digest it and look at your notes and think through some things on your business without being at a crazy show with all your friends.

So you may have some more questions that you want to get clarified with the speaker, and now you can get on there and say, “Hey, now I'm looking at my business. What about this or that?” And they'll be able to give you really good feedback that's pertinent to your business.

So we're really trying to think how this is a community of communities that gets results.

Joanna: Now, we do have to say that there are inevitable challenges with every business, and in fact, one of the challenges was my session, the recording didn't work. So I am actually redoing my session as part of this after party.

I'm actually going to give the session again with some updates because, of course, my talk was on AI, and it was in November, and we're two months on, and things have changed. So I'm going to be doing that again. So, yes, the challenge is sometimes things don't work.

What were some of the other things that were challenges or that you're changing and improving?You've talked about some of them, but anything else?

Joe: So on that particular subject, out of 160 sessions, I think there were eight that we had technical issues with. So like, we want to have zero fault on that, but fortunately, we've got a solution. In your case, you don't have to record video. You just show your slides. I know this is not a thrill for you!

Joanna: No, definitely not a thrill, but I'm happy to update the slides and do it again. Like you said, you're doing the after party, so it might actually work really well.

Joe: Yes, the point is having this situation where we can interact around that material. Frankly, we have to get that session done because you were one of the highest rated sessions there were.

I think we had a fundamental difference in how AI was seen at the show, and why was that was how we were approaching the subject matter. This wasn't about how it is just used in creation of content, we were talking about all kinds of stuff.

The good and the bad of it, and as well as how this is going to be able to do things for you and your business that you don't want to do, or frankly, you're not that good at, and the machine is going to be better at it than you. So that's part of it.

Your question was about what could we do better. We have the reader event, and we're always going to struggle with that until we get to the point where we can do that on a full weekend. We know that having a Saturday for that means we get a lot more people to show up.

We rolled out some technology at that event. It was the first time it was ever used. It went pretty well, but we've got a whole list of stuff we have to improve with that. We wouldn't have had that list unless we went and did that project, right?

So the idea of us creating a way for us to sell print books at a show, and authors not have to figure out how to get the books there. We've got the first part of that solution. The readers could order books, we had them printed on demand and delivered to the show.

Now that we have that system working, and we know that it works, we need to get it so that it's a really pleasant experience for everybody. So those kind of things are marginal things that we need to adjust to make things better.

Again, this is stuff I enjoy.

Now that I can see where we need to improve things, then we'll figure out how to improve them.Joanna: It's only year one!

Joe: I think that that was for us, this first year was a lot about like, okay, I've never run a show before. It's the first time I've done this.

There were people on our team that were involved with the previous show and knew what to do at the show, but we were making so many changes that there was a lot of moving parts that were new and had to be watched.

The beauty of something like this is to see the impact that it has on the community, while at the same time being able to work with people on making it happen.

So it's very fulfilling for me because this is how my creativity comes out in working on a business. It's even more rewarding because I'm doing it with people, and we're having fun. We're a very high performing team.

Joanna: Well, fantastic. So if people want to come—

Where can they get tickets for Author Nation 2025? Is there any way they can access what happened at 2024?Joe: Sure. So right now, early ticket sales are open. So we have a deeply discounted ticket that you can buy in the month of January. So if you came to the show and bought your ticket at the show, they got the best price, and that was only available to those people that came to the show.

Now we have our early bird special, and you can go to AuthorNation.live and sign up for that.

We also have another offer there called the Regret Remedy Bundle. So what is that? There was a lot of people that were like, well, I'm going to just wait and see how this show went.

Then they lost their mind after they saw all the fun and their friends were who were at the show that were like, “Oh my God, this thing is amazing,” and all over Facebook are people sitting on these big white leather couches with smiles on their faces.

So if you, for whatever reason, didn't come, you can buy this Regret Remedy package. It includes the after party, so you'll get all the videos from 2024. Also, it's bundled with a ticket for 2025.

In both cases, we offer an installment plan, so we're trying to help you manage your cash flow as well. If you can't afford the full ticket, you can break that up over a six-month period to manage your cash flow better.

So again, go to AuthorNation.live to learn more about those. We've got some examples of the sessions from 2024 to give you a feel for what the show is like and all the fun testimonials from people.

I can say this, as far as the 2025 show, we've got some amazing stuff lined up. We haven't announced it yet because we're contracting things right now, but when you look at last year, we had Kevin Smith—did you stay around for the Kevin Smith?

Joanna: Yes, I was there. I'd never heard of him. Then I was like, oh, this dude is funny.

Joe: I think that a lot of people were like, why Kevin Smith? He's this old director from the 90s. One, he was so generous with his time. The session alone was almost two hours, and then he hung around with people. More so, he honestly spoke about being a creator and talked about major issues that he had in his life.

He had a severe heart attack that almost killed him. He had a nervous breakdown. He spent time in a psychiatric hospital. He talked about all those issues and was really motivational to people.

So those are the kind of people we're bringing in to have authors see, like, you're not the only ones that are having these kind of issues. Here's a dude who's a big Hollywood movie guy, and he's dealing with the same stuff as a creator getting words on the paper.

Joanna: Yes, fantastic. Also, we should say, since this is a podcast, you have a podcast.

Where can people find your podcast?Joe: Sure. So you can find me at JoeSolari.com. If you're interested in some of the stuff I'm talking about around how your creativity works and this up-spiral concept of designing your business around your creative cycles, that's where that information will be.

One of my things is that I do a paid newsletter, and each year I have 45 emails on a specific subject. This year, all the research I did last year on this is being pumped out in those emails.

I talk about, like, how do you honor your default mode network? How do you work on your executive function? How do you think about becoming a creative athlete?

Oh, and then the Author Nation Podcast. That's another thing. That's on all the major channels. We have a YouTube channel as well, that way you can watch the video.

Joanna: Well, thanks so much for your time, Joe. That was great.

Joe: Well, thank you. I just want to put out a special thanks to all the folks in your community that came to the show. It's not lost on Suze and I the time and effort it takes to come to an event like that. I want your community that comes every year to feel welcome and that we really love having you there.

Joanna: Oh, well, thanks so much.

The post Balancing Creativity With Building A Business, And Author Nation With Joe Solari first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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Happy New Year 2025!I love January and the opportunity to start afresh. I know it’s arbitrary in some ways, but I measure my life by what I create, and I also measure it in years.

At the beginning of each year, I publish an article (and podcast episode) here, which helps keep me accountable. If you’d like to share your goals, please add them in the comments below.

2024 was a year of consolidationas I got my creative house in order and began to shift my creative and business processes. 2025 is going to be a year of personal and business changes as I turn 50 and focus on expanding the J.F. Penn side of things using Leverage as an over-arching theme. More details below.

Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of memoir, thrillers, dark fantasy, and horror as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes Leverage: Make more of what I have * Launch of How to Write Non-Fiction, Second Edition * My 50th year * J.F. Penn bucket list and books: Blood Vintage*, the ‘desert book,' ‘ the tallship book,' ‘the gothic cathedral book.' * J.F. Penn short story collection — Kickstarter * Joanna Penn — The Creative Penn Podcast and Patreon Community

Leverage: Make more of what I haveMy over-arching theme for 2025 is Leverage, which can be defined as utilising available resources, assets, tools, and relationships to achieve more.

The famous quote by Greek mathematician Archimedes goes: “Give me a place to stand and a lever long enough and I will move the world.” The idea is that you can achieve a lot as an individual — if you use leverage.

Here's an overview of some aspects and I go into more detail in the following sections.

(a) Leverage the books I've written but not made the most of yet. * Launch How to Write Non-Fiction Second Edition everywhere by end of January 2025 * Work with my US agent, Renee Fountain, to get a book deal for Blood Vintage — or self-publish by the end of 2025 * Get my existing short stories into print. Write an extra two exclusive stories and launch as a Kickstarter Collection and then publish wide. * Get Catacomb in audiobook format

(b) Leverage my existing available assets to bring in more income * Do a monthly book marketing plan and organise paid ad campaigns per month for revolving first books in series and my main earners. I have been pretty scatter-gun at this recently, so I just need to get organised, and AI tools are good at helping with this! * Organise my Shopify stores, CreativePennBooks.com and JFPennBooks.com into more collections to make it easier for readers to find things they might want to buy. * Reinvigorate my content marketing for JFPenn — make more of BooksAndTravel.page with links back to my stores, and do fiction specific content marketing with the aim of surfacing more in the LLMs as generative search expands.

(c) Leverage AI tools to achieve more as a one-person businessI already use a lot of AI tools as part of my creative and business processes, but everything is quite disjointed as I create in different places and bring it all together myself.

2025 brings the promise of AI agents — where you give the AI agent a goal and it will plan a multi-step process and then execute that plan on your behalf after your approval, with as much interaction as you like along the way.

AI tools helping author achieve leverage. image by joanna penn on midjourneyI've glimpsed this step by step planning process as part of Google Gemini Deep Research, which I've started using as part of my book research and marketing processes. The potential launch of OpenAI's Operator in early 2025 is also interesting.

I'm primarily interested in using these tools for book marketing, which let's face it, is the part we all want to outsource! There are tools which already have AI embedded within them, which will hopefully become easier to use in 2025. I would love Meta Ads and Amazon Ads to have specialised agents we can use for book marketing. Fingers crossed on that!

I'm also researching how SEO works for ‘advertising' to the LLMs, as generative search continues to disrupt ‘old' ways of getting traffic to websites. I still think content marketing is relevant, and I am far more interested in doing more of that rather than social media, so I'm going to look into it.

I'll do more visual media — using Midjourney for images since that's still my favourite, but also RunwayML or Sora for video. I loved making my Blood Vintage book trailer, and intend to make similar trailers this year for my first in series books, and also the ones I am pitching for film/TV.

While I still intend to self-narrate my non-fiction and my short stories, I'm interested in using ElevenLabs for Catacomb, which has a male main character. In order to maximise potential distribution and sales, I'm waiting for FindawayVoices by Spotify to allow ElevenLabs files, which I think will happen in 2025.

OK, let's get into some more specific details.

How to Write Non-Fiction, Second Edition January is all about the launch of this completely rewritten new edition. I'll be on lots of different podcasts talking about the book, and also doing lots more social media as well as paid ads to get the book moving.

How to Write Non-Fiction, the Second Edition is available now on CreativePennBooks.com in ebook, audio, paperback, large print, and hardback editions, and as part of bundle deals. It's on pre-order at all the other stores, available 31 Jan 2025. You can find it here on Goodreads.

My 50th yearIn March 2025, I'll be 50, and as we all know, it's a big birthday! I've had a goal on my wall for many years — “Create a body of work I'm proud of. 50 books by 50!”

I'll let you know in March whether or not I have achieved that goal, but regardless, I am still in the middle of creating a body of work I'm proud of! I'm not intending to stop any time soon. I will be doing some trips and celebrating, and as ever, I'll share on Instagram @jfpennauthor (also Facebook @jfpennauthor).

J.F. Penn bucket list and books: Blood Vintage, the ‘desert book,' ‘the tallship book,' ‘the gothic cathedral book.'I have three main bucket list things that I'd like to achieve (at some point) but are essentially out of my control. These are not 2025 ‘goals,' but I'm sharing them as context as they shape some of my business decisions.

1. Get a traditional book deal (in English). I have had deals in foreign languages before.
2. See one of my books/stories as a film or on TV.
3. Win an award for my fiction as J.F. Penn (I'm an award-winning author as J.F. Penn for my memoir, Pilgrimage, and I've been a finalist for the ITW awards for best ebook original for Destroyer of Worlds).

I can't guarantee that any of these things will ever happen. The only thing I can do is create the conditions by which they are most likely to occur and keep putting myself and my books in the path of possible success.

Since 2009, while I have written some stand-alones, I've been primarily writing fiction in series — my ARKANE action adventure thrillers (13 books), Brooke & Daniel crime thrillers (3 books), and Mapwalker dark fantasy thrillers (3 books).

the first books in my 3 main series as J.F. PennWriting in series is a key pillar of the indie author business model.

Essentially, write books in a series and promote the first in series with free or cheap ebooks and price promotions, plus bundle deals and upsells.

But series books are not so well positioned for my three bucket list items above. Stand-alones are easier to pitch for all three of those goals, which is why I'm changing my strategy in terms of what I'm writing and how I publish. I'll certainly be writing more books in series as well, but for now I am focusing on the following:

• Blood Vintage will either get a deal in which case it will likely come out in 2026, or I will self-publish it myself sometime in 2025. If I self-publish it, I will also narrate the audiobook, since the main character is a woman from my area of England.
• I will write ‘the desert book' and give it to my agent, Renee, to submit to publishers for a potential deal. Again, depending on timing, if everyone passes, I will self-publish that, too. I've already started the draft so it is underway.
• I have another stand-alone idea which I might get to — working title, the tallship book. It's based on a trip I did back in 1999 when I sailed on the tallship Soren Larsen from Fiji to Vanuatu in the South Pacific.
• I still have all the research for the gothic cathedral book and a stonemason character who needs a story so that may turn into a crime series, or a fantasy book, or something else. I'm still noodling on what to do with it all …
• I'll be pitching at London Screenwriters Festival again, and also continuing to network in the film/TV world. In many cases, it's about connections and serendipity so it's about being out there.
• As an over-arching practice, I will keep reading different kinds of fiction, and keep working with my editor, Kristen Tate, on improving my craft, and keep experimenting with short stories as well as longer works. I'll also keep filling my creative well in order to keep creating sustainably for the long term.

J.F. Penn short story collection — KickstarterI'm super excited about this, and it will probably be my next Kickstarter campaign. My fifth campaign in a fifth genre — why the hell not?!

some of my short stories as J.F. PennI currently have 8 short stories that are not in print, and if I write 2 more exclusive for the collection, I could do a special hardback beautiful print edition, as well as the usual ebook, (self-narrated) audiobook, and paperback.

I love writing short stories, and I love reading them. I've backed a number of collections and anthologies on Kickstarter, and I think they're awesome as a way to experiment with different ideas. Mine span crime, horror, dark fantasy, archaeology, science fiction, and elements of literary fiction.

One of my new stories is inspired by The Hardy Tree. It's a real tree, or at least it was until it fell down in a storm a few years back. It was in St Pancras Old Church near Kings Cross Station in London. Here's a picture I took in 2017 and then revisiting the pile of gravestones in 2024.

the hardy tree, st pancras, londonThe story goes that Thomas Hardy, author of Tess of the D'Urbevilles and many other classics, worked at the station in his early years, and his job was to move some graves which were in the way of the lines. He arranged them around a tree, but it's unclear what happened to the bones, or whatever else he might have found, or buried, there.

I studied Tess at school, as well as Far From the Madding Crowd, and Jude the Obscure was one of the reasons I wanted to go to the University of Oxford (Jude's Christminster). I'm pretty obsessed with Hardy and I've had an idea noodling about the tree for years — so that will be one of the exclusive stories in the collection, plus another one yet to arrive in my brain.

The Creative Penn Podcast and my Patreon CommunityEvery year I consider if the show is useful enough to make it worthwhile continuing, but in 2025, I am sure it's still useful. There is so much change coming in the year ahead and I want to keep paddling as we surf the wave rather than drown in it!

I also love the interaction we have in my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn, so I'll continue with my demos and office hours, extra training and articles over there. (You can join us for less than the price of a coffee per month!)

Double down on being human. In-person events, speaking, and travelI'm going to do more in-person stuff, with a variety of things planned. We've kept a lot of space for various family things that are happening, so there will be more trips, but I'll talk about them later. (You can always find pictures on Instagram @jfpennauthor)

I'm doing a Library event in Bath on 22 Feb, then I'll be away for my 50th in March, doing a retreat with Orna Ross just outside Dublin, Ireland in April, and I'll be back in Las Vegas for Author Nation in November.

Health & fitnessI'll continue to lift weights twice a week and improve my dead lift, squat, and bench press. I will likely enter the same powerlifting competition that I did last year and improve my weights on every lift. But the main goal is to get stronger and not get injured!

weightlifting author, made by joanna penn on midjourneyI'll also continue calisthenics, with the goal of being able to do a freestanding handstand, a ‘skin the cat' movement on the rings, a one minute dead-hang, and a pull-up by the end of 2025. I can do variations of all those right now, but it would be a hell of a progression to get to the full movements.

If you’d like to share your goals for 2025, please add them in the comments below — and remember, I’m a full-time author entrepreneur so my goals are substantial. Don’t worry if yours are as simple as ‘Finish the first draft of my book,’ as that still takes a lot of work and commitment!

All the best for 2025 — let’s get into it! The post My 2025 Creative And Business Goals With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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Another year ends, and once more, it's time to reflect on our creative goals.

I hope you can take the time to review your goals and you're welcome to leave a comment below about how the year went. Did you achieve everything you wanted to? Let me know in the comments.

It's always interesting looking back at my goals from a year ago, because I don't even look at them in the months between, so sometimes it's a real surprise how much they've changed! You can read my 2024 goals here, and I go through how things went below.

Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller author as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes Spear of Destiny, the Gothic cathedral project, and short stories * Award-winning memoir, Pilgrimage * Blood Vintage*, and working with a US agent * The Creative Penn Podcast and Patreon Community * Streamline TheCreativePenn website and redo Author Blueprint * How to Write Non-Fiction, Second Edition * Travel, speaking, and in-person events * Financials, health and fitness, and happy cats!

J.F. Penn — Spear of Destiny, the Gothic Cathedral project, and short storiesI researched, wrote and then did a Kickstarter for Spear of Destiny, ARKANE Thriller #13, before publishing it wide a few months later.

I went to Vienna, Nuremberg, and Cologne in January, which was a chilly trip but inspired much of the story.

The Kickstarter ran in June 2024 and raised £12,536 from 313 Backers. I made a limited edition hardback with silver foil and a ribbon, and a specific cover for the campaign, which I love!

You can buy Spear of Destiny here in all formats on my store, or here everywhere else.

The hardback was available in bundle deals with the rest of the series, and I also bit the bullet over audio and had the first three books in the series re-narrated by Veronica Giguere (they had been withdrawn since my rewrites in 2022), as well as Spear of Destiny.

These kinds of bundles and Add-Ons really help a Kickstarter fund at a higher level, and they are also only possible if you sell direct as you can still make a profit, even with discounts.

I also had a goal in 2024 to produce a non-fiction photo book with essays about English Gothic Cathedrals. I did lots of research trips and read books on stone masonry, which was great fun.

But then I discovered the pain of photography permissions, even for your own photos.

Essentially, if you take photos on private property, you cannot just use those photos in commercial projects. You need photography permissions, which can take time and energy, as well as potential payment for every single one, plus the text that goes with it, and potentially even the layout.

I hate the idea of asking permission in general. It goes against my independent spirit, and when I researched it in more detail, I hated even more how long it would take, and how much to-ing and fro-ing there would probably be.

I am the kind of creative who enjoys wrangling chaos and I can be a whirlwind of creative energy. It doesn't fit well with the structured permissions process.

When I interviewed Leon Mcanally about his Dark Tourism book which was heavy on photos and permissions, I realised I just can't do this kind of book right now. Perhaps sometime in the future I might hire someone to work with, but it doesn't fit me at the moment, so that photo/essay book is not happening.

I still have a lot of research around gothic cathedrals and ideas for what else that could turn into. More to come on that in 2025.

I had a goal to write “at least one or two” short stories, and I managed two, De-Extinction of the Nephilim, and Seahenge, both of which I narrated in audio, and are available on my store, and in all the usual places.

I did the art for all my fiction covers this year, primarily with Midjourney, but also DALLE through ChatGPT. My cover designer, Jane at JD Smith Design, used the images to put the finished covers together.

I also used RunwayML to turn Midjourney images into a book trailer for Blood Vintage.

I also had a goal to get everything in audio, but I am still deciding what to do with Catacomb, so that is outstanding. I did change the cover on it and make a gorgeous sprayed edge hardback.

J.F. Penn — Award-winning memoir author, London Book Fair, 2024Back in March 2024, I was thrilled to win the Best Non-Fiction at the Selfies Awards for my memoir, Pilgrimage: Lessons Learned from Solo Walking Three Ancient Ways. That was definitely a highlight!

J.F. Penn — Blood Vintage, a folk horror novelOnce I dropped the gothic cathedral project, I had space for ‘the vineyard book,' an idea that's been noodling around for a while.

I visited Limeburn Hill near me, one of the few biodynamic vineyards in the UK in the summer and really loved the foray into folk horror, a genre I enjoy reading.

I also loved designing the special edition cover with Midjourney.

The process also led to a connection with a US agent, who suggested we take it out for submission, so I went ahead with the Kickstarter for the Limited Edition hardback only, and retained the other editions for licensing.

The Kickstarter for Blood Vintage back in October 2024 was fantastic and I love having the gorgeous limited edition hardback out in the world. But it was a truly limited edition. There were only 200 hardback copies printed and I didn't sell it in any other formats. It's not for sale at all right now.

My US agent took it out on submission in September and we are still waiting for the final batch of responses. Apparently Frankfurt Book Fair, the US Election, and then Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year etc all tend to get in the way of business.

I am finally experiencing what I've heard about for many years in terms of the slow pace of traditional publishing, but I'm committed to the process now. We will see what 2025 brings for that book …

The Creative Penn Podcast and Patreon CommunityAnother year of podcasting completed — and we hit 10 million downloads, which is kind of incredible!

I changed the podcast logo and the theme tune, and thanks to corporate sponsors, Kobo Writing Life, Draft2Digital, ProWritingAid, FindawayVoices by Spotify, Publisher Rocket and Atticus, Ingram Spark, and Written Word Media — all companies I continue to use and recommend.

One big change was how much more I am doing inside of my community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn. I've done tutorials on using aspects of AI tools and general topics around author business, as well as the monthly solo Q&A audio, and occasional live office hours. Thanks to all the Patrons who support the show! We now have over 1200 in the Community.

Joanna Penn — Streamline The Creative Penn website, redo my Author BlueprintI needed to do a bit of clean up in order to move forward. I started out the year by entirely rewriting my Author Blueprint, which is a free ebook if you sign up for my email list, and you can also get the paperback on my store.

I archived a lot of posts and pages on TheCreativePenn.com and did a bulk cleanup of categories and tags. When you have a site as old as mine (started 2008), there's always backlist content to update or archive. Not a fun job, but necessary!

How to Write Non-Fiction, Second EditionI also had a goal to update my backlist books for Joanna Penn, and How to Write Non-Fiction was the one that needed doing the most.

The first edition was from 2018, and since then my writing craft has improved a great deal, and I wanted to include aspects of memoir, as well as updating the business side of things, affiliate links, plus I wanted to narrate the audiobook.

It's all finished and on pre-order as I write this.

You can get it on my store, CreativePennBooks.com on 1 Jan 2025 in the usual ebook, audio, and paperback editions, and also in gorgeous foiled hardback (I'm still waiting for the proof as this goes out but it will be up soon). There are also bundle deals.

It will be out on all the usual stores on 31 Jan, 2025.

Travel, speaking, and in-person events One of my goals when I became an author entrepreneur was to travel more, and while it's not been a bumper year (since my husband Jonathan has been busy with his MBA), I've still managed some trips for speaking and book research.

the nuremberg art bunker, corfu, ely cathedral, and death valley california, 2024 Vienna, Austria plus Nuremberg and Cologne in Germany. Book research trip for Spear of Destiny* * Speaking in Seville for 20Books, Spain (the last 20Books conference) * London Book Fair panels * Corfu, Greek Islands, for beach holiday * English gothic cathedrals trips — Salisbury, Winchester, Wells, Ely, * Stone carving weekend, Somerset * Death Valley, California, USA. I did a day trip for book research just before Author Nation, which was excellent. * Author Nation, Las Vegas, USA. Fantastic conference and a great way for an inspiring (almost) end to the year.

Other goals “Learn how to make beautiful books.”

I'm taking this goal as a win because I love both the special editions of Spear of Destiny and Blood Vintage, and now we can do sprayed edges with BookVault, we can do premium products more easily. Some indies are doing print runs with all kinds of special add-ons, so it really is possible to do anything now — if you have the time and the budget.

“Optimise my Shopify stores and Meta ads.”

I didn't do this, so it's a fail on this goal. My Shopify stores — CreativePennBooks.com and JFPennBooks.com — continue to tick along just fine and I sell books direct in different formats every day. I did outsource Meta ads for the first few months of 2024 but once that ended, I just never picked it up again. I much prefer creating new things that optimising the old!

“Experiment more with AI tools.”I certainly did this, and as ever, I consider myself an AI-assisted artisan author. As noted above, I've been using Midjourney for book cover images and social media, as well as a book trailer for Blood Vintage, where I also used RunwayML. I use Descript and Otter.ai for my podcast. I use ChatGPT and Claude for brainstorming, help with organising ideas, and also for writing sales descriptions. I am also now using GoogleNotebookLM for surfacing new ideas from my own content, and Google Gemini Advanced with Deep Research to help with book research, both are new use cases in the last few months. If you'd like more detail on how I use all these tools, I do tutorials and demos within my community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

FinancialsWhile I won't be giving specifics, The Creative Penn Limited is still a multi-six-figure (GBP), one person business, but income was down by about 20% this year — which is pretty significant. There are a few reasons why.

• I spent several months on things that needed doing but didn't earn any money — redoing the Author Blueprint, and updating the site and the podcast
• I wrote two books which haven't launched or earned much as the year finishes — How to Write Non-Fiction, Second Edition, and also Blood Vintage. The Blood Vintage Kickstarter was only for the limited edition hardback, which is the least selling format, so most of the money is still to be earned for that book, whether I license it to a publisher or release it myself.
• I didn't do any significant paid live events or paid webinars or affiliate partnerships
• I also didn't do as much paid marketing, and I really slowed down on social media, so my book marketing in general was reduced. This is partly because I have felt pretty jaded by the grind of both paid ads and social, so taking time away from both helped me create more and continue at a sustainable pace.

I'm also at a point in my career and my life where I have met a lot of my financial goals, and so I'm making creative decisions for different reasons.

For example, there is no doubt that I could have made more money from Blood Vintage in 2024 if I had released it myself in all editions. But I have a goal to get a book deal at some point, so it's with my agent, and even writing stand-alones over series books (generally) means less income for indie authors.

I'm happy with the choices I've made, but I also intend to have more releases in 2025, and reinvigorate my paid marketing, with the intention of making up that revenue.

It will also be interesting to review this at my tax year end after April 2025, as I will have made up at least the income on How to Write Non-Fiction by then.

Health and fitnessWhile writing and podcasting are my job, health and fitness is pretty much now my major hobby, and I spend time on it every day. Remember, we are not just brains! We need a healthy, happy body in order to keep creating in a sustainable manner. This is also part of my ‘more digital, more physical' mentality where I combine my use of technology with aspects of ‘doubling down on being human.'

I've been powerlifting consistently twice a week pretty much all year, as well as walking most days, and while I had decided to do my first competition in 2025, I went ahead and did one anyway!

my first powerlifting medal, 2024I chose not to push myself that day but selected weights where I could achieve every lift, so I had a perfect 9 of 9 lifts. Squat 50 kgs, bench press, 40 kgs, dead lift 100 kgs. Here's me with my medal! (and no, I won't be sharing the action shots as no one needs to see me in a powerlifting singlet and long socks! The required kit for British Powerlifting is not flattering!)

I ended the year with PBs of squat 70kgs, bench press 42.5kg, dead lift 105kg, which I'm really pleased with.

I also started calisthenics mid-year, which has been a very different kind of movement — handstands, ring work and going upside down a lot, as well as hanging from the bar and various other things that I am only now starting to get used to. It's a fun challenge and certainly pushes my comfort zone and gives me a new perspective!

Happy + cats! cashew (brown one) and noisette (black one) — british short hair cats!Most importantly, I'm still happily married to Jonathan, living in Bath, England, with our two lovely British shorthair cats, Cashew (brown one) and Noisette (black one). My baseline happiness is sorted, so everything else is a bonus!

How did your 2024 go? I hope your 2024 had some wonderful times as well as no doubt some challenges — and that you have time for reflection as the year turns once more.

Let me know in the comments whether you achieved your creative goals and any other reflections you'd like to share.

The post Review Of My 2024 Creative And Business Goals With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How can you build a scalable business around non-fiction books? How can you turn a book into multiple streams of income? How can you delegate in order to scale? Michael Bungay Stanier shares his thoughts.

In the intro, Bookfunnel's Universal Book Links, and How to Write Non-Fiction Second Edition; ALCS survey results of writers on AI, remuneration, transparency and choice; AI Translation is the Game-Changer’s Game-Changer [The New Publishing Standard]

This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Michael Bungay Stanier is the bestselling author of five books, with a million copies sold, including The Coaching Habit, How to Begin, and How to Work with (Almost) Anyone. He's also the founder of training and development company Box of Crayons, a podcaster, speaker, and coach.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Michael's publishing journey and why he likes the control of hybrid publishing
• Creating a business ecosystem beyond the book — multiple streams of income
• Tips for successfully delegating in your author business and improving professional relationships
• The challenges of creating a premium print journal
• How journaling can help you figure out what you really want

You can find Michael at MBS.works or BoxofCrayons.com. You can get the journal at DoSomethingJournal.com.

Transript of Interview with Michael Bungay StanierJoanna: Michael Bungay Stanier is the bestselling author of five books, with a million copies sold, including The Coaching Habit, How to Begin, and How to Work with (Almost) Anyone. He's also the founder of training and development company Box of Crayons, a podcaster, speaker, and coach. Welcome to the show, Michael.

Michael: Jo, I'm so happy to be here. It was earlier this year that you and I were hanging out in a field together, and this is warmer and less damp, amongst other things.

Joanna: Yes, indeed. We were at The DO Lectures in Wales, which we're going to come back to. First up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.Michael: Well, the seed was planted by having a grandmother who was a writer. So my dad's mum lived in Oxford, England, and she wrote columns for the local newspaper, kind of gossip columns. Her pen name was Culex, which is Latin for mosquito, which I love.

She also wrote kids’ books, and memoirs, and plays, and radio scripts. She was a really prolific writer.

So I think that was probably the early seed, along with my dad being a great storyteller. He would tell stories at night of Sir Michael. I was meeting Sir Nigel, Sir Angus, my two brothers, and we'd head off and have adventures.

So this idea of loving stories and loving writing, I think was planted pretty early on. I found in university and in my first careers after university, I would inevitably end up writing the newsletter. In university, I was part of the law newspaper and the English department newspaper.

Writing and writing and writing has just been part of the practice for a long time. Which, as you know, is all part of putting in your 10,000 hours, finding your voice, learning how to write a sentence. Starting off copying other people's styles and then trying to find your own style emerging from that.

The first time an actual book idea showed up in my head, and this turned into an actual book that I published called Get Unstuck & Get Going. I had this idea that I thought about coaching, which was a profession I just started in. I was like, you know, there's a way of doing this that can be more efficient than actually having a coach.

I had this idea of like the kids’ flip books, where you have like a ballerina's head and a scuba diver's body and a soccer player's legs, and you kind of combine them into these kind of different combinations. I had this idea that you could create a book with different questions.

So you'd bring a problem to the book, and you'd open it and randomly generate some questions, and voila, you'd have a self-directed coaching practice. So I had this idea, and wrote some stuff up, and went and made some prototypes.

Then I honestly just couldn't figure out how to publish it because no publisher wanted this, and self-publishing felt impossible.

So I kind of put it in a drawer, until my cousin Robert went, “You know that book you were telling me about, this kind of self-coaching book? I noticed you're not doing it, and I was telling my boss about it, and he thought he his company could do it.”

I was like, “Wait, no, what? Ah!” So that was kind of the catalyst to me getting a first book published. After that —

I just realized that writing books and producing books and getting them out in the world is one of the best expressions of the way I try and serve the world.Joanna: I love that, and it's a really interesting story. Just give us a sense of the timeline because you said there that self-publishing would be difficult. I mean, self-publishing that kind of book would be difficult. You've got five books now with, I presume, different publishers or self-publishing.

Tell us a bit about that publishing journey and the timeline.

Michael: So, let's see. Get Unstuck & Get Going would have been around about 2006, so before Amazon and others kind of made self-publishing a regular book normal.

Then I self-published another book called Find Your Great Work, and did a print run of like a couple of thousand copies. I was super excited about it. A friend of mine went, “Oh, this is good,” and he sent it to his editor at Workman, which is a New York publishing house. They came back and said they'd like to publish this.

I was like, well, I've already published 2000. They're like, well, soon as those are done, we'll redo this book for you. So in 2010, I think, I published a book with Workman in New York. So that was a regular publishing experience.

Then 2011, I partnered with Seth Godin, who is a marketing blogger, author, general kind of guru guy. He had a year where he partnered with Amazon and produced a book a year through them, only created through Amazon.

I created an anthology called End Malaria. It was pretty exciting, actually. We had like 60 people. They all wrote articles around how to do more great work.

All the money raised from that book, not just the profit, but all the money, all the revenue, went to Malaria No More. We raised $400,000, and we hit number two overall on Amazon.com with that.

Joanna: I should just say on that, I think, well, one, I'm a fan of Seth Godin. I've talked about him a lot on the show, so my listeners know of him.

Also, that's how I think I first heard of you for the first time. I bought that book, and lots of people bought that book, regardless, but to support that as a charitable work.

Michael: Yes, it was a project I'm very proud of because I was like, oh, this is using what I can do, which is write books which I know a bit about, and connect with people which I know a bit about. With having the partnership with Seth, I'm like maybe we can make something cool happen here.

So the next book wasn't until 2016, but it was my big breakthrough book. It was called The Coaching Habit. It was because I spent four years trying to pitch this book to Workman who published Do More Great Work, as it became called.

They kept turning me down. I kept writing the book and designing the book and writing proposal. I went through probably six or seven iterations of the book. I did a lot of writing, and they kept saying, “Ah, no, it's not quite right. We don't like it. Go back and have another go.”

At a certain point, Jo, I went, “Okay, this is it. This is the book. Take it or leave it.” I was pretty sure that they would take it because by this stage, Do More Great Work had sold maybe 70,000 copies. So that's a pretty good performance, and I was thinking they would bet on the author, but they didn't.

They turned me down. I was affronted and depressed, but at a certain point I was like, there is something here in this book.

I explored what I thought was going to be self-publishing, but emerged into kind of hybrid publishing.I work with a company called Page Two, and they have this hybrid publishing model which we can dig into.

That came out February 29th, 2016. So February 29th, because I could pick my pub date, and I'm like if this book doesn't sell very many copies, I can say on its first birthday, it sold X number of copies, even though that's a four year stretch. You know, always thinking.

That book just took off. So it sold almost 200,000 copies in its first year. It's sold now probably a million and a half copies. Maybe not quite that much, but kind of getting close to that number.

Four years later, I published a sister book to that, called The Advice Trap, which is a kind of deeper dive into how do you tame your advice monster. So now I was on a roll. I'm like, I've got this thing.

So a book that followed that is called How to Begin, which is about what you do when you hit midlife and you're trying to figure out what you do next. It's how do you find a worthy goal.

Then my most recent book is called How to Work with (Almost) Anyone, which came out, I've lost track now, maybe a year ago, bit over a year ago.

Somewhere in there, there was one other little book that I published, which was like a daily provocation. It's one of those books with 366 pages, each page is a date with a question or a provocation in there.

Joanna: I love that because you've done so many different ways of publishing. Have you done all of the books—the rest of them, the recent ones—with the hybrid publishing?

Michael: I have, yes. Ever since The Coaching Habit, I've just loved this partnership with hybrid publishing. It's a really good model, particularly if there's more to your business than selling books. If your book is often a doorway into other stuff that you do, they're a particularly powerful partnership.

You and I both make a good living through selling books, Jo, but we're in the minority.

Most people don't make a living selling books, so it has to be a book-plus.What that business model does is give me much more control over my book, without me needing to worry about all the minutiae detail stuff that I'm not good at and not interested in.

It gives me freedom to distribute my books out in the world in a way that can generate bigger returns through my speaking or through my training or through other stuff that I do.

Joanna: I think this is a really important point. I mean, you mentioned there the business beyond the book. So give people a sort of clue as to the other ways that you make money, but also that you have made money, because you're a multi-passionate creative.

You do things that maybe they're kind of project based, and then you move on. I think it's really interesting because a lot of people say, well, you just start doing one thing and that's it, but—

You seem to pivot quite often.Michael: Yes, some would say multi-passionate creator, other people would say easily distracted.

So I started a training company called Box of Crayons, you mentioned it in the introduction. It sells and licenses the IP that's from The Coaching Habit book and The Advice Trap to big companies. So their clients are people like Microsoft and Salesforce and Gucci, kind of these big name brands.

It's trying to get thousands of people to change their behavior so that when they're leading people, they can be more coach-like and ask better questions.

So I started that company. I still own it with my wife, but luckily, I don't run it anymore.

Four or five years ago, one of the team stepped up to become the CEO. She's so much better at being a CEO than I am. I'm a terrible, terrible CEO.So that's a multi-million dollar a year company, like $5 million or $6 million in revenue. The profit of that company gets shared a bit with me, and a bit with the people in the company, and a bit reinvested back into the company.

How to Begin, which is the book on setting a worthy goal, a goal that's thrilling, important, and daunting, there's a business model on the back of that which is an online training course for about 50 bucks, I think, or 100 bucks. It's a kind of a deeper dive into that work.

The real economic engine behind there is a membership group called The Conspiracy. So The Conspiracy is where people come together to do the work and actually make progress on their worthy goal.

Many of us feel that call to do something bigger and braver and bolder than ourselves, but it can be pretty daunting to do it by yourself. So this is a community, an encouragement, and some structure to keep making progress. That's mostly run by a small team of one full-time person and a couple of part-time people.

There's a theme here, Jo, which is that—

I try to start things, and then I try to get out of the way.Because if I'm running a business, we're in trouble. If other people are running businesses, we've got a chance.

I give speeches, so sometimes webinars from my office, but sometimes I get on a plane and I fly different places to give a speech. The success of The Coaching Habit book means that I am ridiculously well paid for doing that.

Keynote speaking, if you can crack it, is ridiculously lucrative. If you're Brene Brown, you're charging a quarter of a million dollars to give a talk.

Joanna: Wow.

Michael: Yes, exactly. If you're me, my rack rate, as we call it, is $50,000 to give a speech. Now, that's an enormous number, and it's partly there to have most people go, “That's ridiculous. Why would we pay you that much money?”

That means that I can stay focused on the stuff that I really want to do, which is to create and to write and to build new stuff, rather than be on the road giving speeches. So partly it's to try and make myself inaccessible.

Let's say I give about 10 to 15 speeches a year, and definitely not everybody pays that sort of amount of money, but that's the start of the conversation around that.

Then there's book sales, and working through the hybrid model, you can expect somewhere in the 30% to 40% royalty rate. It's not really a royalty, but in terms of money generated for a book sold, 30% to 40%.

That is roughly three to four times more than you would on a traditional publishing deal, where your royalty rate's more likely to be in and around 10%. It's less than if you just did a straight publishing, uploaded a PDF to the Amazon enterprise and sold ebooks through them.

Joanna: I love this. This is so useful for people, for me and for people listening, because, like we've said, it's about building an ecosystem around your personal brand. This is basically what you have built. Your name is the thing that is, I want to say famous. Your name is what people recognize, and then there's all these other things.

There's a couple of follow up questions. So one is, way back when, did you design this? Like coming out the gate, did you go—I am going to design this ecosystem business around a personal brand?

Or was it just you took opportunities, followed ideas, and there was no potential planning around it?

Michael: Well, ironically, the planning that was there was trying not to build a personal brand.

Joanna: That's really funny.

Michael: The thing is, I would say that my name is largely unknown, as much as it might be.

I mean, for a book that sold a million and a half copies, lots of people who've got their hands on that don't know or haven't really registered the name Michael Bungay Stanier.Not in the way that like a Dan Pink, or a Susan Cain, or a Brene Brown, or any of these folks are known. In part, that's because when I was building Box of Crayons—and that's the business I spent most of my time building, I spent 17 years working in that business directly.

I was like, the business is called Box of Crayons. It's not called Michael's Training Business because I wanted to make myself redundant as fast as possible. The reason for this, Jo, is kind of a philosophical one and a practical one.

The philosophical one is at the heart of the work I do, it's to invite people to step into the best version of themselves, to kind of take responsibility for their own freedom, to unlock their greatness. Part of the act of doing that is for me to create space for them to do that.

As somebody who got dealt lots of the great cards: straight, white, over educated, English speaking man, blah, blah, blah, I've got a lot to give away. So my job is to get out of the spotlight as much as possible so that other people have an opportunity to step into that space.

Practically, I want to do that because I'm a fundamentally lazy person. It's like things work better when I'm not involved.

I'm trying to build a life where I'm doing the stuff that I'm best at and I love most.Some version of podcasting, some version of creating, some version of writing, all of those projects get me most excited. So partly, this is trying to find other people to do the work.

Joanna: This is also interesting to me because there are a lot of us who are independent authors who are ‘doers.' You know, we like doing the work, as such.

So you used the word ‘lazy' there. I know other people who use that word, but actually what you are good at is delegating and trusting other people and helping other people be the best they can to run your business for you, or to be your publisher, or whatever. I actually think this is a real trick.

So how can people who are overly doing, and I include myself in that—

How can we delegate more and better, so that we really focus on the things that we are best at or should be doing?Michael: That's a wonderful question, and honestly, I wish I was a much better delegator than I am. I'm still too much of a meddler, but you're right, I've been practicing for quite a long time to try and make myself better at that.

Partly, it's I'm lucky enough to have a wiring that has me kind of wired to think about what the next thing is, rather than kind of obsessing about what's happening at the moment. So I'm kind of wired to be able to let some stuff go, which helps for sure.

When I stepped aside from being the CEO at Box of Crayons, and Shannon was coming in to take on that role, honestly, she was totally freaking out about it. I wasn't. I was freaking out a little bit, but not really like she was.

She was freaking out because I had hired her from behind the bar of my local pizzeria four years earlier. This is her first job. Now, it's her first job, but I hired her as she was in the tail end of her completing her PhD in literature. She's incredibly smart, and I just went, you have a ton of potential.

Really quickly, it just became obvious to me and the person who was coaching me that maybe this person could be a CEO. So we're like, okay, how do we set you up?

We hired somebody for two years to help us in this transition, a year leading up to Shannon becoming the CEO in a year after it. That was very helpful because that just helped somebody look at the two of us and make sure that we didn't collude in our own destruction.

That's something that can definitely happen because founders are terrible at handing over control, for the most part. The other thing we did, Jo, which was really helpful, is we used the tool that comes from Susan Scott's book called Fierce Conversations.

It's based on a tree metaphor, and it sets out four different levels of decision making. Twig, Branch, Trunk, and Root. Shannon and I went back and forth to figure out what the decisions were for Box of Crayons.

Now, Twig decisions are decisions that I will never hear of, just never know about. It's just not in my future life will I ever come across what that conversation was about.

Branch decisions are ones that probably I hear about afterwards, either in a conversation with Shannon, or maybe her monthly update to the company, which I'm part of. Those are those decisions. Nothing to do with me, but I'll find out about them.

Trunk decisions, and this is where it starts getting interesting, are decisions for Shannon to make, but for her to talk to me before she makes them.

Then Root decisions are decisions that I get to make as the owner of the company.

Those are categories that are useful for whenever you're looking to delegate to figure out where does the power rest in this decision making. Now for Box of Crayons, where we got to pretty quickly was to realize that actually I only had two decisions, two Root decisions that I could make.

One is, do I sell the company or not? The other was, do I fire Shannon or not? Because in this instance, I wanted this to be Shannon's company that she was running that I happened to be a shareholder in. Not Michael's company that Shannon was managing on my behalf.

It just meant that we came up with a hierarchy around what those decisions are. So that's one tool that helped.

The second tool that helps, and I kind of touched on this actually quite a lot in the book How to Work with (Almost) Anyone, is with most of the people with whom I work—

We have a conversation about how we work best together so that we get what we want.That doesn't normally happen. You think it would, but most of the time when you start working with somebody, you plunge into the “what” of the work. The doing of it, the stuff that needs to get done, the stuff that needs to get delegated. Here's why we're having the meeting, blah, blah, blah.

What I do with the people with whom I work is I'm like, let me tell you the best experience I've had with when I'm working with somebody like you, in the kind of role you have.

Why don't you tell me the best experience you've had when you're working with somebody in my position, in my role? What's the worst experience that we've had?

What will we do when things get broken? Because they will get broken, everything gets broken in time. The fabric always rips.So setting up those conversations allows us to get a little clearer about how we best work together, which means that both they and I are more comfortable about what's being delegated.

Joanna: Yes, that's super useful. I think often the conversations—and authors, writers, you know, many of us are far more comfortable writing. So, I mean, people can do a sort of first draft of that in writing, get the ideas down and then talk about it. As you say—

A lot of this is relationships, and that always involves a little bit of having to talk to people.Michael: Exactly, and it's like you also have to understand what your standards are.

Most of us don't know what good enough looks like, and most of us don't know what excellent looks like. If you don't know it, how on earth can somebody who you're delegating to find the right level on which to perform.

So it's doing your own work to kind of go, look, this is what I mean by getting this done. This is what it looks like. This is what it doesn't look like. It's taken me a long time to learn this, Jo, but —

I've just found that the sooner I can make minor adjustments, kind of lightly tap the tiller, the easier it is for everybody.So I have an assistant, Claudine, and when something isn't quite as I want it to be with Claudine, I don't hoard it. I don't linger over it. I just ping her a quick note, going, “This, I prefer it to be A, not B,” and she's like, cool, got it. Then she builds it into her process.

Joanna: Yes, that's great. So I wanted to return to your book projects because you have a premium Do Something That Matters Journal coming in 2025. Now, many of us people listening, we do premium print editions of our books, and sprayed edges, and foil, and all this.

We can do we can do anything now. Like pretty much as independents or hybrid as you are, we can do anything. I do know that a journal is tough.

Tell us about your journal. Why do it? What have been some of the challenges?Michael: Doing a journal is tough.

When I talk to my Page Two folks, the hybrid folks, they're like, whoo, there's a journal mafia out there. I mean, it's relatively easy to create a journal, at least it feels easy compared to writing a “proper book” in inverted commas.

So it can be really tempting to all of us to go, “Look a journal, how hard is it?” It's like, throw down a few questions, have a lot of blank pages, add a ribbon, maybe a bit of an elastic thingy to hold it shut, and you're signaling journal.

If you go onto any of the online retailers, there's a gazillion journals for sale, most of them cheap, shoddy, nasty, underwhelming. So I was like why on Earth would I do a journal?

With almost every single book I create, I get to a place where I'm like, screw it. It doesn't matter if this doesn't sell, this just needs to be created by me. So I get kind of clear on what success is. Sometimes it's like, you know, it doesn't have to sell that many, I want to get this thing out in the world, and I want it to be created.

So too with this journal. It was like, do I want to do this journal? I've got this idea, I think I know how it might work, and I've got a way of where it connects. It connects to the How to Begin book. So it's part of that ecosystem. So this comes down to understanding what your business and your business ecosystem is.

So, okay, I've got a little marketing machine that is about trying to find people in midlife, trying to figure out what to do. I can sell them the How to Begin book. I can sell them the Do Something That Matters Journal. I can sell them the How to Begin Course. I can sell them The Conspiracy.

There's different ways of bringing people into this ecosystem through these different products that I've created.The journal is a whole different price point. It's more expensive to create something like this because you're using nicer paper than you would on a regular print book. You've got ribbons. I've got a cloth bound journal with an indented title. So it's all kind of fancy and lovely.

So what made me go yes is, first of all, this is an outcome from my actual journaling practice. I spent 20 years trying to figure out a journaling practice, and this turned out to be helpful for me, and these questions turned out to be helpful for me.

Secondly, it kind of builds on some brand awareness around me, which is that I'm kind of known for asking good questions. This journal not only has regular daily questions that repeat, but it has unique weekly questions that are different over the 18 weeks of this particular journal.

So first of all, it's like, okay, it'll enhance my brand. It's something I will use. So if I don't sell any of these, I've got a lifetime supply of journals. So that'll be fine.

Thirdly, we did a smaller print run than I would normally do. For me, I would normally do an initial print run of a book of around about 20,000 books because I've got The Coaching Habit that continues to sell really well. It sells a couple of thousand copies per week.

It means that I can bet that the rising tide effect will mean that over a lifetime, I should be able to sell 20,000 copies of most of my books. That's the rule of thumb I have.

With this journal, our first print run is 8000 copies. I'd be delighted if I just sell out this first print run, that would be a success for me. Otherwise, it'll be Christmas gifts to everybody I know for the rest of my life.

Joanna: Can I just ask on the product side, because I've looked at this, one of the things is the lie flat.

Does it lie flat?This is the thing that costs the money, basically. One of the things.

Michael: So mine doesn't lie flat. I don't totally know.

Joanna: As in, do you have to break the spine to lie it flat? Or is it like the Leuchtturm or the Moleskine, where you just open it and it lies flat, basically?

Michael: It has a like, I don't know what the fancy terms are, but it's a hardback. So the spine is a hard ridge.

Joanna: So it's more like a ‘book' book?

Michael: It's more like a book book, but when you open it, you don't have to do anything fancy to be able to write on both sides of the book.

Joanna: Okay. I think this is the interesting thing because different people like different journals. So, for example, I might buy one of those because I want just to see your products and to get your questions, but I may not journal in it. For example, I journal in just a plain other notebook. I use a Leuchtturm.

Michael: Oh, I love Leuchtturms.

Joanna: Yes, I love them too.

The word ‘journal' is, even in itself, an interesting word.Michael: Right, because there's the Leuchtturm ones where they're really plain, and that's the ones I've used for 10 years. So now I'm moving away from them now with this new journal, or using them differently, at least.

Then you have kind of the planner style journal, which is: write down what you're doing today, write down your top three things, write down your intentions. I mean, it's kind of a more how do I actually hold my universe together.

Then the ones like mine, which is like, here are ways of checking in with yourself. So a little more structured than Julia Cameron's Morning Pages, where you'll just write for three pages or three minutes or something, free flow.

So I'm like, well, this is what's worked for me. It's got the discipline to check in on a daily basis because getting clear every day on what matters most and what you're grateful for and what you're present to, really helps.

You check in on a weekly basis to kind of help you learn and grow and evolve and see the bigger picture.

Joanna: Is that through Page Two? Also, where can people get that?Michael: It's through Page Two, so that's my hybrid publisher. As you can tell, I love Page Two. I love the expertise of around publishing that they bring, and I love that they understand authors who have a back end.

I love that I get to be in control and make the final decisions on the look and the feel of all the stuff I create because that matters to me.

Joanna: I think it is on Amazon for pre-order. I think that is how I found it.

Michael: It is on Amazon. It's at DoSomethingJournal.com.

Joanna: Fantastic. Okay, so we're almost out of time.

I want to just return to The DO Lectures in Wales, which I'll link to in the show notes. It's very interesting. Let's call it a festival, but it was mostly a festival of ideas. It was full of people looking for a new direction or the next pivot.

You and I were there for different reasons, and I was feeling a need for a pivot. There were lots of people wanting to reinvent themselves.

Now, this is going to come out towards the end of 2024. People moving into 2025, we've got lots of changes in the political things, in AI, and there's so much going on.

If people listening are feeling like a new direction or a new pivot in the new year, what are some of your tips for people?Michael: I have three suggestions. The first is, a really great question to try and answer every single morning for a period of time is, “what do I want?” It's such a hard question. Oh, man.

It is actually one of the three morning check-in questions that I use as part of this new journal, but you don't need to buy the journal to just use this question. So sitting down with, “what do I want?”

Often when people are at that kind of restlessness, what's becoming clear is what they don't want. I need something to be different, but they haven't yet got a clearer reading, or even started picking up some faint signals around what they do want.

Sit with that. “What do I want? What do I want? What do I want? What do I really want?” It is hard, but the more you can spend time with that, the greater you're going to find solid earth underneath your feet that will enable you to move and act.

The second question that I think can be really powerful is —

“If I'm going to say yes to this, what must I say no to?” Most of us, and I include me in this, for sure, we underestimate just how powerful the status quo is. It has a really heavy gravity, and shrugging off the status quo is always harder than you think it is.

When you say no to something, you're actually saying no, most of the time, to someone. Whatever you're thinking as your reinvention, somebody's going to be a bit disappointed in you. They were hoping for more of the same.

So try to figure out what you're going to say yes to, and therefore what you have to say no to. So much of this reinvention process, we add yeses, but we're not brave enough to say no. Your yeses mean nothing unless they come with a no.

The third thing I might suggest is find some people to perhaps do this with, have this conversation with, walk this path with. It can be a coach. It can be an informal gathering of people.

I mean, tomorrow I'm going to a day-long gathering of a brand new mastermind that we're starting up with me and four other people to support each other as we figure out who do we want to be when we grow up. So you don't have to fork out money for this. You can just find your people.

This is an existential question. It's hard to wrestle with existential questions just by yourself, so go find somebody else to walk the path with.

Joanna: That's great advice. I'm definitely thinking about all those things too.

Where can people find you, and your books, and everything you do online?Michael: The best place to go is probably MBS.works. That is the umbrella website. It points you to social media if you're into that sort of stuff. It points you to all of the books. All of the books have free stuff associated with it, so you can get in there and pillage the free stuff from the books if you'd like to do that as well.

If you have a multi-million dollar budget for corporate training, then you should also go and look at BoxOfCrayons.com, but I suspect there aren't that many of those people listening in here.

Joanna: No, but certainly some people might buy your journal! So that's more the level of us.

Michael: I would be thrilled. As an author, and everybody who's listening knows this already, which is it's nothing but a treat when somebody has the generosity to buy a copy of your book.

I saw a thing on LinkedIn, I think, of somebody going, “The Coaching Habit is my most dog-eared book.” I'm like, oh, my god, that is just the best compliment an author can get.

Joanna: Oh, brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Michael. That was fantastic.

Michael: My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Jo.

The post Building A Business Ecosystem Around Non-Fiction Books With Michael Bungay Stanier first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How can we write from the perspective of others while still respecting different cultures? How can a children's book author make money from bulk sales? How is self-publishing in South Africa different? With Ashling McCarthy.

In the intro, Spotify for Authors and Katie Cross on self-narration and email marketing; How do I know when to leave my publisher? [Katy Loftus]; and Claude Styles.

Today’s show is sponsored by FindawayVoices by Spotify, the platform for independent authors who want to unlock the world’s largest audiobook platforms. Take your audiobook everywhere to earn everywhere with Findaway Voices by Spotify. Go to findawayvoices.com/penn to publish your next audiobook project.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Ashling McCarthy is a South African author and artist, as well as an anthropologist, graphic designer, and non-profit founder. Her latest book is Down at Jika Jika Tavern, in The Poacher's Moon Crime Series.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• How Ashling's background in anthropology helps in writing books
• How research can help us write from other perspectives
• The importance of empathy when writing “the other”
• Debunking South African stereotypes and tips for visitors
• The book ecosystem in South Africa
• Difficulties of selling direct in different countries
• Marketing your book to schools and creating teaching opportunities

Find out more about Ashling at AshlingMcCarthy.co.za.

Transcript of Interview with Ashling McCarthyJoanna: Ashling McCarthy is a South African author and artist, as well as an anthropologist, graphic designer, and non-profit founder. Her latest book is Down at Jika Jika Tavern, in The Poacher's Moon Crime Series. So welcome to the show, Ashling.

Ashling: Hi, Joanna. Thanks so much. I'm really looking forward to it.

Joanna: Yes, great. So first up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.Ashling: Well, writing and publishing has come quite late to me. It wasn't something that I'd ever actually intended on doing. I started off as a graphic designer in South Africa and did a bit of work in the UK, then came home when I was completely homesick.

I got into a really interesting craft development program for people who had a three-year qualification in design, and we would be working with women who lived in rural communities in an area called KwaZulu-Natal, where I live.

As long as you had a three-year design qualification, they'd match you up with women in rural areas who were very skilled at craft. The idea was that then we would work together to match those skills to create high-end product.

So it was really that experience that allowed me to see South Africa in a very different light, and I went on to become an anthropologist and a nonprofit founder. So that took a good probably 15 years of my life and writing a book kind of came out of running the nonprofit.

We're an education nonprofit, and we work with rural schools. So children who go to really poorly resourced schools in rural communities in in South Africa.

I wanted to write a book for the young women in our communities who didn't have any examples of themselves in books.We would get lots of donations from overseas companies for books, but there was nothing that reflected their lives, their experiences. So I thought, oh, maybe I'll start to write a book that kind of reflects that.

So Down at Jika Jika Tavern is actually the first book in The Poacher's Moon Crime Series. I, last year, published the second book, The Leopard in the Lala.

How that came about, in terms of writing a crime series versus an educational kid’s book, was that my family was very involved in a game farm with wildlife. Just one day I was thinking about the fact that so many people who live on the outskirts of these game farms have no access to them.

So the only chance of them seeing a rhino or an elephant or any other kind of game is from the other side of the fence, and I kind of wondered what that would feel like. So I started to write a story that would bring that to light.

It was during our time on the game farm it was the height of rhino poaching, and we had six rhinos poached over a period of time. I really started to get a feel for what the book would be about because there were so many interesting incidences that took place.

So for example, a traditional healer was arrested on the neighboring game farm for being involved in rhino poaching. I wanted to understand better, why would somebody who effectively has a calling to do good, why would they be involved in such a heinous crime?

We just had so many little interesting things happen that I was able to then weave these real life stories into fiction to better understand why people become involved in rhino poaching and wildlife crime.

Joanna: Yes, because being an anthropologist, I mean, obviously that means you're interested in people and what different people do.

Talk about what the job of an anthropologist is and how much you use from your career in the books. What are some of the interesting anthropological things you weave in? I mean, you mentioned the traditional healer. Like, what are the other things?

Ashling: So I must say, anthropology plays a really big part in my writing. I studied Anthro, got a master's degree in HIV/AIDS and orphan care, and really it was looking at what kind of cultural practices lead to people becoming infected and affected by HIV.

It was really those experiences of understanding how culture can have such a huge impact on the way people respond to certain things.

So now in my books, I mean, obviously, as a South African, we have 11, in fact, now 12 official languages. We are multi-faith, multicultural, so it's very hard to try and tell a story from one perspective.

For me as a white female Christian, how do I write a story that involves many different cultures, different faiths, different belief systems, without it coming across as judgmental or bias?So I really do use the methodologies that we learnt in Anthropology, of curiosity, listening, observing, and trying to understand somebody's perspective from the world that they've come from without bringing in my own thoughts and feelings about that. So it's really interesting and fascinating.

I think it helps to better understand why people do things. Then we can look at—I mean, obviously we want to end rhino poaching and wildlife crime, but just telling people not to do it isn't good enough. We have to try and help them work with the systems that they have in place that could lead to a reduction in those actions.

Joanna: I love that, and I think that's so good in terms of whatever we're writing, whatever genre, taking the perspective of someone else.

I mean, just your examples there, say poaching and HIV, there are some people who might write a story that's like, “Well, they are evil. They're the criminal. They're the bad person because they did this.” Whereas there are some very logical cultural reasons, like good reasons, why these things happen.

I mean, but re-education and changing people's minds. I mean, even the economics, right? Sometimes this is done because people need it for money to feed their children or something. So this is all so caught up in things that we often just don't know about.

I mean, this is really hard, though. You've spent all these years working with these communities, so you're trying really hard.

For people listening who want to write other perspectives, how can normal people who aren't anthropologists with your background write the other?

How can people really try to get into the mindset of someone who just lives a completely different life to ourselves?Ashling: I think that's research. I mean, obviously, as I'm writing about poachers, it's very hard to meet a poacher. They're either sitting in prison or they're just totally inaccessible to you. So a lot of research, a lot of interviews, I've read a lot of academic papers.

There's a huge amount of academics that are doing research into wildlife crime and have worked with communities. So I think wherever you can't physically meet somebody, or even if it's online, is to really try and read as much as you can.

Also, find people who are representative. I mean, what I know about a traditional healer, which we call an Izangoma here, I know very little about that.

So I found somebody who I could interview and who explained to me what the perspective of that faith and that calling is, and then why somebody might turn from the calling to do good, to do bad. So I think it really is a lot of research goes into it.

It's not just asking one person. Just because I'm writing about a particular character, and then I interview one person, that's certainly not the perception of a number of people from that culture or that faith.

In anthropology, we call it triangulation. Finding at least three different sources to verify that information.Joanna: Oh, that's really good. I think that's excellent. As we're recording this, this will go out a bit later, but we're in the last week of the American election. It's just so fascinating to read different perspectives from the polar opposites of a political side of things.

I mean the triangulation in that sense—I know that's not South Africa, but we all have these same things, right—the triangulation is really hard if you have two extremes and a moderate somewhere in the middle. I mean, with some of these, it's very, very hard to get into someone else's perspective.

Is empathy just a big part of it? Like putting aside who you are to try and really listen?

Ashling: Yes, definitely. I think that's probably the biggest thing that I learned from Anthro was empathy and really just sitting with somebody else's life experience.

I mean, you talked about wildlife crime and the economics of it. The fact is that I've worked and been in communities where really the poverty is just horrendous. People have aspirations just like you or I do, and they want their children to have a better life.

So if somebody's being offered their entire year's wages, if not more, for one night to poach a rhino, I mean, very few people would turn that down in order to help their family or to better their family.

Yes, obviously, there is greed and higher syndicates and all of that, but for the average person, or the average poacher who gets involved, I think a better understanding of the other aspects of their life is important.

Joanna: I mean, obviously talking about things like poaching rhinos, I mean this is a normal thing to talk about in South Africa, but most people listening won't have been to South Africa. They might not know much about it. I think some people might even think it's an area of Africa, as opposed to a separate country.

What are the stereotypes about South Africa that annoy you the most, or the most dated things you hear about it?Ashling: Well, I think South Africa gets a very bad rap in terms of, obviously, crime and corruption, and there is truth in that. I'm very much not looking at the country that I live in with rose tinted spectacles.

Yes, there is crime. Yes, there is corruption, but I absolutely love this country. I have no intention of ever leaving.

I think what's so wonderful about South Africa is the people and how they're so welcoming and kind and empathetic in many ways. We just have kind of a culture of helping one another, of community, of looking out for one another.

I mean, often when you see videos on TikTok of people mocking South Africa, the first thing that you would notice in the comments is how South Africans, despite race, faith, political agenda, will band together and protect our country to the death. It just really is a country of huge opportunity.

For me, I think it's really changed the way I view the rest of the world. I have lived in the UK. In fact, my older sister lives in the UK. I've got a twin who lives in Hong Kong, and I've visited, obviously, on numerous occasions.

I always feel such a great sense of relief and happiness on getting back into that airport at O.R. Tambo and setting foot on South African soil.

Joanna: That's really great. I worked in Australia in the mining industry with a lot of South Africans, who I guess they must have left in the 90s, which was a different time, obviously. I feel like when people say South Africa, they have Nelson Mandela in their head, which is what, 20 or 30 years ago?

Ashling: Yes, 30 years ago this year.

Joanna: 30 years ago, yes. It's a very, very different time. As you said, I guess the other thing we hear is the crime for travelers. So if people want to travel—

Do you have any tips for people who might want to visit South Africa?Ashling: Absolutely. Like any country that you visit, there are areas to avoid. There's just the simple rules, like not going into the CBD, the Central Business District, late at night. I mean, there are very clear areas that you shouldn't visit during the evening.

I know everybody loves to flock to Cape Town. Cape Town is amazing. It's beautiful. It's got wine farms. It's got the mountain. Absolutely stunning, but it's quite interesting, a lot of non-Capetonians feel it's a very different experience. Like when I visit there, I always feel like I'm in a slightly international kind of zone.

Areas like where I'm from, Durban, a lot of people bypass Durban because Durban does have a bad rap. It's worth visiting Durban though. I mean, we are two hours away from the mountains. We're two hours away from game reserves. We've got the beach on our doorstep.

My suggestion is to look around at the other places and other locations to visit. There's the Karoo, there's the Kruger National Park, which obviously a lot of international visitors flock to as well.

So I think just do your research and try and get on to maybe some South African groups that can share with you some of the best things to do and maybe some of the places to avoid. There's quite a lot of those websites.

Just thinking about what you were saying about Australians and South Africans in Australia, I think probably the worst ambassadors for South Africa are those that have left. Many have left for good reason, better job opportunities, or maybe have had a traumatic experience in this country and often don't represent us well overseas.

I think to look past that, as that's the same for virtually every country in the world.

There's the good and the bad, and we have to look for the good and explore that.Joanna: Yes, I totally agree. I mean, obviously there are dangerous places in any country in the world, so I think that's important to stay. Also, I totally agree with you with going home. It's interesting how you talk there about going back.

I mean, I lived in New Zealand and Australia between 2000 and 2011, and you know, there were reasons that I was away. Jonathan, my husband, is a New Zealander, and both of us are so pro the UK. I'm so English now. I feel like I am English, not just UK, but I'm English.

I think going away, like you also lived away, going away and then making the decision to return, it means you make it like an active choice to live in your country. That's huge, isn't it?

Ashling: It's a very, for me, an intentional commitment to the country. Also, I mean, I was born in the very late 70s, so I had 10 years of apartheid South Africa. I understand how privileged our position was at that time, and still is, and wanting to contribute back to the country that allowed me to become the person I am.

That was part of running the nonprofit, was saying there are so many kids out here who deserve better. If I can contribute to that and make something happen there, then I actually owe it to this country.

It's been a very intentional decision to return here and to make the best life possible, not just for myself, but for those around me.

Joanna: So let's come on to the books and publishing side.

Tell us about the book ecosystem in South Africa.Do people use like Kindle and the Kobo? How do they listen or read? What are print sales like, as well?

Ashling: Yes, Kindle is definitely big here. I still get into arguments with people about Kindle versus physical books, and there's still a lot of people who want to have the book in their hand and smell the paper and all of that. So I would say both are used widely.

I, personally, haven't heard too much about Kobo, but that could just be because I have a Kindle, so I don't listen out for that. Ebooks, as far as I know, it's through Kindle.

I've started looking into, after listening to the talk with yourself and Adam Beswick about selling direct, I didn't realize I could sell ebooks directly from my website. So that's something I'm exploring now as well.

Audiobooks and Audible is very popular here as well. So, yes, I would say there's still a big physical store presence, like to go into a store and buy a physical book. Books on Amazon, yes, downloading ebooks.

To order a physical book on Amazon, the courier fee is very prohibitive to get a physical book from international to South Africa. So that probably isn't too big, but I mean, all the bookstores here sell whatever it is that you are looking for.

Joanna: If somebody wanted to sell their books in a South African bookstore, is it a chain?Is it mostly independents? Is that something you've looked into, or is it dominated by publishers?

Ashling: So in terms of self-publishing, in order to get your book into big bookstores, like Exclusive Books, or Bargain Books, or whatever it is, you have to work through a distributor. So there are probably about three or four distributors.

The big chains won't deal with you as an independent author. They want to work through the distributor. So the distributor, they read your book, and then they either accept it or reject it. If they accept it onto their list, then you would send your books to them, and then they approach all the big chains.

They also work with schools and other entities, but it has to be done through that distributor. So what that does mean, though, as an independent, I'm still not coming out with a huge amount per book.

The bookstore gets quite a big discount so that they can sell it at your retail price. Then the distributor takes a big chunk of that. Whatever you're left with, then you obviously minus your expenses off of, and you're left with that little amount as a profit.

Joanna: Yes, print books are a very challenging situation. Well, those same chains, do they work across Sub-Saharan Africa in general, or is it like a South African thing specifically?

Ashling: Some of them do. I'm thinking of two very big ones that would probably work in Namibia, Botswana, those countries that are quite close to us, but I don't think through all of Africa.

Joanna: You mentioned earlier that there are 11 or 12 languages just in South Africa, and obviously every other African nation has a whole load more languages. I mean, there's a lot of them.

You're publishing in English. Is that what people usually do, or are there publications in other languages?Ashling: English and Afrikaans would probably be the two main languages to publish in. There is a push towards indigenous languages, like IsiZulu, isiXhosa, some of those other languages that some authors might want to publish in.

English is taught through in most schools. So, generally, everybody can read English or Afrikaans. Those are the two biggest languages spoken in the country.

Joanna: What about self-publishing in South Africa?If people listening are in South Africa or they're interested, what are the specific challenges? Are you using exactly the same stuff as I would, or an American would? How does that work?

Ashling: So self-publishing, it hasn't been too difficult in terms of just setting it up. I mean, you get your ISBN from the National Library System.

Then I went straight to Amazon, in terms of wanting to reach an international audience. So I have the physical book and an ebook, so that's not difficult to do.

Now that the payment systems have changed, prior to about a year and a half ago, your payment would have to go through an American bank account. Then you would withdraw that to a South African bank account. Now you can be paid directly from Amazon, which is fantastic.

Then the actual physical books here, I work with a local printer, and I do runs depending on how many books I need. That can be quite costly, obviously, because we're not printing thousands of books, but I'm sure that's the same for print on demand anywhere

I haven't really found anybody yet here who does print on demand to say that I just want 10 books and for it to be cost effective.

So what I do is some of my books I will work through my distributor, and then other books I will have for myself. I do a lot of art shows. If I do a book launch or a talk, I will take books with me and sell directly to the public.

Joanna: You mentioned your online store as well. What have the challenges been with selling direct? A lot of people listening, they're not in the US, they're not in the UK. I mean, even people in Europe are struggling with some of this stuff.

What are some of the difficulties with selling direct?Ashling: Really, around payment. So, I mean, I'm quite new to this part of trying to reach an international audience outside of Amazon. I wanted to move away from people being able to only buy via them.

So it was interesting, as I said, when I listened to Adam Beswick's talk of how he's doing sales directly from his website, my first challenge there was, well, who am I going to use to print these books? How do they get delivered to people? How do I get paid for that?

I was really trying to work out what is the best platform, and it seems to be somebody like Ingram Spark that can do all of that for you. The distribution, the printing, so I'm looking into that.

Then, you know, if I use a BookFunnel for ebooks, then just ensuring that my website is aligned to BookFunnel's way. It's just trying to work out the technicalities of how these things work together.

I'm very much listening to a lot of your podcasts and trying to learn from what people have already done. I think that's probably the best way to do it is find people who are doing it, and then just email them and ask them and hope that they will email you back.

Joanna: Yes, I think that's a good call. I mean, I'm using Shopify. I think Adam uses Shopify.

Are you using Shopify or an ecosystem like that, or are you trying to do it just straight from your website?Ashling: So it's straight from my website, which does have an ecommerce platform.

I did speak to my web person about this. Like, should I rather just start a different website? Also on my website, I am an artist, and so it's almost like a multi-disciplinary website. Should I rather have just a website for my books?

She said, well, the issue with that is that you really have so much SEO and traction and articles linked back to your original website. You would lose that when starting a new website.

It's those kind of little things that I obviously wouldn't think about because I'm not a web person, and my tech side is very poor.

I think it's even just finding out those little issues that could kind of create a hassle or an issue as you try and build the book business away from your original author page, or whatever it might be, and then trying to figure out what the solution is for that.

Joanna: It's definitely a challenge. I mean —

My answer on that because, obviously, I have separate websites, is just to put links on the main site pointing at the other site. Redirection onto another site, and then have call-to-action. So there's ways around that.

The other thing is, like you mentioned Ingram Spark for print books, and I think there's no integration that I know of that will be just one click where they just go straight through to Ingram. So at that site, you'll have to get the orders manually and then load them up separately.

Ashling: Yes, so it's quite challenging. I don't think I had any idea of what lay ahead.

Also, because it happened quite—not suddenly. It took eight years to write the first book, but when you write in the book, you're not thinking about how am I going to get it out into the world? You're just impressed that you actually finished it.

So trying just to work out —

How do I now take this seriously? Because I can't keep writing books if nobody's buying them. I do have to also make a living from what I'm doing.So something that I am very focused on, and it might not work for everybody, but it certainly does work for me because of the content of my books, is that they are perfect for high school English set works. The content is very relevant to the social, economic, political, conservation challenges faced in South Africa.

I have got the book into two schools, so my marketing focus is actually on books and schools.

Then also the services that can benefit kids in terms of writing. So one school has taken books, and then we've written a teacher's guide and a student workbook, which will be out next year, so then the teacher can really engage with the material.

Then they've asked me to come and do a narrative writing workshop because apparently kids today don't know how to do creative writing because they're always on their phones and they're not actually reading.

How can you create other services that complement your writing and the sale of your books, but actually broadens your income generation strategy.Joanna: I think that's great. In that way, as much as I love Adam Beswick, I don't think that model is for you.

I think the bulk sales model is for you, and exactly what you're doing in schools.

A few years ago now, I had an interview with David Hendrickson, who has a book about how to get your book in schools. He has a book, How to Get Your Book Into Schools and Double Your Income With Volume Sales. I'll link to that in the show notes, or search the back list for David Hendrickson.

He talks exactly about that. I mean, also Karen Inglis has been on the show talking about books in schools and doing that. As you say, I mean, when you think about the fact that you do have to make a living, you don't want to grind it all out to get a couple of sales on Ingram Spark when it's difficult to do.

Whereas you can sell 50- 100 books into a school and then go and make some income from teaching as well.So I think that's definitely the way to go.

Ashling: Yes. Even that photo that I sent you of all those books that were going out, I had been very lucky too.

I've been in the nonprofit sector for so long, I also understand the landscape of charity and donation giving, and how corporates in South Africa must give a percentage of their profit to charities in order for their scorecard to be up to date.

I was able to approach a funder, an environmental funder or company, and say to them, “I have these books. Are you interested in encouraging reading in schools, but also working with conservation organizations?”

There are two really big training organizations here for wildlife conservation, and they very happily purchased 250 copies, which then were handed over to those colleges so that their conservation students could read the book and learn about community interaction and how important it is.

That was a great opportunity for me to get my books into those. So I got paid. The company gets what is called an SED certificate.

The organization has a resource that they can use, and that also I can then work with them further going forward, in terms of training, workbooks and workshops. That's a really nice opportunity for both them and for me.

Joanna: I think that's great. Like you say, schools want to do this, and charities want to do this. This bulk sales model, I realize I focus a lot more on the sale to the end customer, but —

This bulk way of book sales, particularly if you have a book for schools, is just brilliant.So more people should definitely think about that, because as you said, you probably got that money—Did you get the money before you even printed?

Ashling: Yes, I don't print until I get paid.

Joanna: The cash flow situation is just a lot better.

Ashling: Much better. Yes, as you're not seen sitting with boxes and boxes of books and hoping that somebody's going to relieve you of them over time.

Joanna: Exactly. I think this is the thing to think about book sales. I mean, none of those sales of those 250 books, they're not going to appear on any best seller list, but that's not the point. As you said, this is a living for you, so that's what we have to think.

It's bank, not rank.Ashling: Absolutely.

I'm really not too concerned about being famous, that might have been in the back of my mind at one point, but it's really that I just want people to be reading the books. I specifically want high school kids to read them. I mean, it's written for adults, but it's great for high school.

I love meeting people who've read the book and their minds have shifted. Their mindset has shifted, or their view has shifted on this topic, and they can be a bit more empathetic and kinder. That's really the point of it.

Joanna: Just on marketing. Obviously, we've talked about the schools there, but as you said before, you're also an artist. You have physical art. You mentioned there a bit about SEO.

How are you marketing the books, and also the rest of your business, in South Africa and globally?Ashling: I'm not very good, I must say, at marketing.

I think I definitely fall into the Gen X of hating self-promotion. I know I should probably be on TikTok and all of those kind of platforms, but I use mainly Instagram. Facebook, I have an author page.

I think that's how my focus on the schools came about, when I realized this is not a strength of mine, of marketing and really posting every single day, and kind of trying to get people to become interested in the book. So actively pursuing schools is one way to get around that.

For art, I will attend art exhibitions. So we have quite a number of them throughout the year, which are like three or four day events which you can attend and have a stall.

I must say though, that art, as much as I enjoy it, it's not my focus anymore. If I have the time to paint, I'll definitely paint. I've realized throughout my entire working career —

I very much had an approach of trying to run three or four things at one time. Now in my 40s, I realize it's overwhelming. It creates extreme burnout. Actually, maybe I could just focus on writing. It's what I love doing. With art, so for example with the student workbook, I can illustrate that workbook and use art in that way. It's kind of a complimentary service to the writing and not just always stand alone.

Joanna: I think that's great. I only laughed with what you said about the marketing because pretty much everyone feels that way. I really don't know many people who are like, “Oh, yes. I love marketing, and I'm so good at it.” Not many authors do that. I was going to ask you—

What about the audiobooks?Ashling: Yes, I am desperately wanting to do an audiobook. It's very expensive here. I don't know if it's hugely expensive on your side. It's definitely something I get asked a lot about.

I think, again, it would complement high school, especially for kids who don't want to read the book, or maybe they have a learning disability or challenge. So, actually, the audiobook would be perfect for them. So I'm in the position right now of going, do I actually just record one with me reading it?

Joanna: Yes, I was going to say exactly that. I mean, I love the South African accent. People listening can hear that you've got a lovely voice. Is your protagonist female?

Ashling: She is a female. My only kind of reticence about doing this is that she, while there are many characters of different races and cultures, she is a black female. I really wanted to have a young black female do the reading of the book.

It's been suggested to me, why don't you just put the first book out and your voice? Then when you are able to pay for a proper recording with a professional narrator, then do that. So I think I might do that just to get it out there.

Joanna: I think that's a really good idea. As you say, the practicality of finding the exact perfect person for that voice, that's going to be really hard. So it's known as just the narrative straight read, the straight read by the author. Quite a lot of people do it.

I'm starting to do it more. I've mainly done my short stories, but I have thought about just doing my novels as well. You don't have to make up voices and things like that, you don't have to do accents. It's just a straight read, as if you were reading it in schools.

Do you do readings in schools already?Ashling: No, not a lot, not yet. I will be as of next year, as I go into the schools. I do readings at book launches and stuff.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. I think that recording your own audio now, the software to do the mastering and stuff is good. So for people listening, Hindenburg Narrator is the software that I recommend now. It just gives you a one-click output for ACX and Findaway Voices.

So I would agree with people who say to record it yourself. Then if you make enough money, and if you find someone—I mean, maybe in one of these schools you'll find a young black woman who wants to act or wants to get into that. That might also, in itself, be an interesting opportunity.

Ashling: A great opportunity.

Joanna: I'd encourage you with that, and I love your voice. I've always liked the South African accent. Okay, so we are pretty much out of time.

Where can people find you and your books online?Ashling: Well, if you're South African, you can just pop over to my website, www.AshlingMcCarthy.co.za. Then, for now, I am on Amazon, both Kindle and Kindle Unlimited.

I am probably not going to be on Kindle Unlimited for too long because I want to try opening up the ebooks to other platforms as well. So for now, my South African website or Amazon.

Joanna: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Ashling. That was great.

Ashling: Thanks, Joanna.

The post Writing The Other And Self-Publishing in South Africa With Ashling McCarthy first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How do you successfully scale an author business? How do you delegate to your team as well as continue to research and write the books you love? With award-winning crime author, Rachel McLean.

In the intro, new Kindle devices [Amazon]; new European markets for Spotify audiobooks [Spotify]; customisable audio with Google NotebookLM;
Amazon Ads launches new AI tools for advertisers;
Enhancing Creativity with AI Tools [ALLi]; My Lessons Learned from 10 Million Downloads of the show; and Blood Vintage Kickstarter wrap-up.

Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Rachel McLean is the award-winning author of the Dorset Crime series, as well as other crime books, and has now sold over 2 million copies.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Making the decision to scale your author business
• Hiring multiple freelancers with different skillsets
• Money and lifestyle as a source of motivation
• Writing with multiple co-authors and creating a small imprint
• How to write what readers want to read
• Moving your readers from KU to other platforms
• Selling audiobooks direct using Shopify and BookFunnel
• Using AI tools for location research
• Publishing videos on socials to humanize your brand

You can find Rachel at RachelMcLean.com.

Transcript of Interview with Rachel McLeanJoanna: Rachel McLean is the award-winning author of the Dorset Crime series, as well as other crime books, and has now sold over 2 million copies. So welcome back to the show, Rachel.

Rachel: Thank you for having me.

Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you today. Now, you were last on the show in November 2022, and we talked about how you pivoted into crime fiction. So we're just going to jump straight into things today.

You started out with your Dorset Crime series, but you now have five series in total, and you work with multiple authors under your imprint, Ackroyd Publishing.

How has your business changed over the last few years?Rachel: In some ways it hasn't changed that much, and in other ways, it's changed massively. So the core of my business, which is about writing crime books that readers want to read, I write in a very similar style. Obviously, my craft has developed over that time.

I'm really like doubling down on engaging with readers, I see that as actually, after the writing, my most important job because that's the thing that I can do, and my team can't do for me. So that hasn't really changed, apart from the fact that it is scaled because I've got so many more readers now.

In the sort of day-to-day management of my business, that has changed hugely. I've now got a team of seven people who work for me. They're all freelance. They each work a couple of days a week, and they do various roles.

I've got a publishing and production team, and they project manage all the books, do the cover design, pull all the files together, manage the editorial and so forth.

Then I've got a marketing team who help me run my shop and do advertising and data for me. I've got somebody who liaises with bookshops. I've got somebody who does AV work for me.

I've also got a number of co-authors who I work with now. A lot of my books are co-authored with people who I've known for years and who I've been working with as part of my writing group for years. That enables me to sort of manage a bigger business, which takes up more of my time, while still producing more books now than I was able to produce without them.

Also, it's really good fun, particularly on the creative side when you're generating ideas for a new book or a new series, I get to work with other people.

So we'll go for a trip to the location that the book's going to be in, and we'll walk around, and we'll sit in cafes and things. We'll chat about what's going to be in the book, and we'll come up with ideas. It's really enjoyable.

Joanna: Oh, so many follow up questions. The first one I have is—and this is quite a personal thing for me, and also people listening—because I feel like what you have done is you have gone from being an author to essentially being the CEO of a much bigger business.

Like you said, you have seven people you're co-writing. So at some point, you made the decision, I am going to scale the size of my business and the income, obviously. You decided that there was something you wanted to do around running a bigger publishing company.

How did you make the decision to scale your business?Obviously, it is a much bigger deal than, like me, I have not made that choice. It's something I come up against over and over again, and I always step back from. It's like I actually don't want a bigger business. So what was that moment, so other people listening might be able to figure that out for themselves?

Rachel: Yes, it's interesting because I always thought I didn't want a bigger business and I didn't want to manage people. I think that's because my experience of managing people in the past had been in huge organizations.

I worked for government agencies and all sorts where it was very process driven. You had to do performance management on a certain day, and you had to manage people in a certain way, and you and they didn't really have all that much freedom over what you did.

Whereas I'm finding that managing people within my own business is very different because A, I get to recruit them, and I get to find people who are a really good fit for my business and have got the skills that I need and skills often that I don't have.

Then B, I get to work with them in a way that works for us, and it's really flexible because we're such a small business. It's not like one person has a particular job title and they can only do that thing. People end up dipping into other people's jobs, and we all work really closely together.

I get everybody together on a fairly regular basis. So we've got a Christmas lunch planned in December. We have an away event in the spring where we all go down to Dorset and have a couple of days together.

We have a summer lunch where we get all our editors and narrators and everybody, the whole full team together. So I found that I enjoy that much more than I thought I might. I really do enjoy it.

The point at which I had that light bulb moment, I guess in a way, I went to the 20Books Mastermind in Majorca immediately after Self-Publishing Show last year.

I went to that specifically with the goal of talking to people who were very successful, and had been very successful for a long time and were sustaining that. I wanted to learn from them because I was at a point where the Dorset Crime series had taken off.

The Kindle Storyteller Award had a massive impact on my sales, and I didn't know how to sustain that. I knew that the workload involved in that was more than I could do on my own. At that point, I was thinking, well, I need to sort of clone myself.

I need to find somebody who would do all the business side of things. I actually offered that job to my wife, and she turned it down.

Joanna: I'm glad she did. Saved your marriage!

Rachel: I'm glad she did now, as well, because we're much happier having different jobs. She has a job. She works for the University of Birmingham, and she's very happy doing that. It's a whole different type of environment from what I do.

I went to the Mastermind in Majorca, and there was a talk on running your publishing business with a team. The light bulb for me with that was the fact that you don't have to hire one person to do the business management.

You can hire multiple people to each do a part of it and to each work a certain number of hours. I already had a PA, Jane. She's theoretically a VA, but she lives quite close to me, so she's not all that virtual. We do see each other.

She was already doing some of the admin for me, but I needed somebody to manage the publishing process for each book. That was the thing that I was finding was a real sticking point for me because I have a terrible memory. I was forgetting what the deadlines were.

I was uploading books to the KDP Dashboard moments before I had to in order to fulfill a pre-order. I was really disorganized. I was thinking, how do I find this person who can manage that process for me?

It just so happens that Rebecca Collins from Hobeck Books, she and I are friends, and she posted something on Facebook about some work that she was doing for another client that was exactly that work. I thought, oh, hang on a minute, I didn't know Rebecca did that.

So I gave her a call, and we had a chat, and it turned out that she had availability, and she had exactly the skills I need. So it started with Rebecca, and then it slowly grew. So I've sort of added one person at a time, and over time people's roles have grown, so there's been more work for them to do.

Rebecca's gone from doing one day a week to doing two days a week. I've got Catherine Matthews, who also works for SPS, she's running my shop.

The great thing is she also runs Clare Lydon's shop. She learns things when she's doing each of our shops that she then uses in the other one, which works for both me and Clare. Clare and I are friends as well. She writes LesFic, and I think I recommended Catherine to Clare.

Having people on my team who have got experience and skills in areas that I don't necessarily have, or who can dedicate a bit more time to learning about something specific.

So the Shopify store, Catherine and I were both quite new to that when we set it up. I said to her, well, I will pay for your time learning how to use Shopify and how to get my store set up. She went away and has been really good at just taking it on board and working things out for herself.

I could have done that, but it would have taken me a lot of time that would have detracted from the writing.The other real challenge I've got is in my personal life, I have an autistic son. He's not severely affected by his autism, but it does mean that I have to be available for him more than you might do for another teenager, and that can really throw things.

Having people that I can delegate things to, it's incredibly helpful, because I know that my business isn't going to just slide if my son needs me. It means that I've been able to focus on him and develop my author career at the same time. I'm not sure I would have been able to do both at this level.

Joanna: Yes, I love that. It's so interesting, because you must be ambitious, because this is an ambitious move.

Rachel: Yes.

Joanna: Do you identify with ambition? Is that a word you identify with?

Rachel: I do.

Joanna: Yes, but you haven't mentioned, oh, I want to be a seven figure or a multi-seven figure author.

Is money a motivation?Rachel: Money is a motivation. That's less about the cash, It's more about a lifestyle. I have a lifestyle now that I really enjoy. So I spend a lot of time traveling. A lot of my books are based in Dorset, and I have a flat in Dorset now because I spend so much time down there.

It's right on the beach, and it's an absolutely wonderful place to go and clear my head, and get fresh air, and go for walks, and write, and take the family down as well. We spent a lot of time down there in the summer.

I'm working on a series, which is a spin off series for one of my characters, and each book will be set in a different European city.

Joanna: Oh, I wonder why?!

Rachel: Oh, let's travel to those European cities. I listen to you talking about your research trips, and I think, yes, I want a bit of that. I'm going to Dorset, and I'm going to Scotland, and I'm going to Cumbria for those series. It's great, and they're wonderful places to visit, but why not go to Paris?

Joanna: Then you're going to have one set in like a Maldives scuba diving resort!

Rachel: Absolutely. I've got a series that I write with Millie Ravensworth, who's actually two authors, Heide Goody and Iain Grant, that is set in London on a vintage route master London tour bus.

We've got two amateur sleuths who, because they're running these tours, they find themselves in the middle of mysteries in iconic London landmarks. We were thinking, why don't we get one of them to go and work as a guide on a cruise ship or something so we can do that? So there's a bit of a debate going on about who gets to do that research trip if we do it.

Joanna: Yes, and I think this is important, too, because —

This is a lifestyle that we're doing for creative reasons, but also to have input into our ideas. Like, I never have any problem justifying this. I do want to come back to that I'm fascinated with the ambition to do this because you've already grown so much. You're working with these co-writers, but essentially, what you're building with Ackroyd Publishing is it's a publishing imprint that does crime books.

It made me think of Bookouture. If American authors don't know, Bookouture is an imprint. It started in crime, and it grew, and it got bought for a ton of money. I wondered—

Are you looking forward into the future and seeing that you might sell the business?Or that you want to grow much bigger? Or do you have grand plans?

Rachel: I think I've toyed with the idea of growing and publishing other authors. So I do have a couple of authors who are Ackroyd Publishing publishers who are not crime authors. One is my wife, Sally Brooks, so that's kind of cheating, but she writes lesbian rom coms and sapphic rom coms.

She has a day job. She loves the writing, but doesn't want to do the marketing and business side of it. So I said to her, well, how about if Ackroyd Publishing published you? To be honest, it doesn't mean we're working together because it's actually the team who are doing that. I'm not very heavily involved in the publication of her book.

I've also published Hazel Ward, who writes women's fiction. She is somebody who I've known for years, and I've been a beta reader for her books since she started. So it's very much been really, really slowly doing that. Only working with people who I know are really good writers and really good to work with.

I talked to Keshini at Hera, who published my paperbacks, about what it's like managing a lot of authors. It's hard work, and you've got to juggle a lot of different expectations and a lot of different styles of working in terms of what they expect from the publisher. I'm quite wary of that.

I'm more interested in building a group of co-authors who work with me, so that I am still the brand.I'm building a really loyal readership. I've got thousands of people who will buy my books on the days they come out.

What I do, it's more like the James Patterson model, in a way. So I'm working with a co-author. They write the first draft and I write the second draft. We plan it together.

So what I do in the second draft is I will add in character detail, because I have characters who move across series, and I will also add in location detail, because we tend to write about locations that I know about. Although the Cumbria Crime ones, Joel Hames is getting to know Cumbria better than I do.

I will also tweak the style so that it's a style that my readers are familiar with. So that when a reader comes to a book that's co-written by me and any one of my co-writers, they will be slightly different. They won't just be exactly the same as a Rachel McLean book that I write on my own, but they will feel familiar.

They'll have a similar sort of structure, in terms of the number of chapters, the length of chapters, the style of writing, what you can expect from that book, the level of gore that you get in a crime book, the level of humor.

Although that's different for the cozy mysteries, they're definitely funnier. That's why I write with Heide and Iain is because they are comedy writers, and they're really good at that.

It's about building up that brand and bringing other people into it and involving them to help create more IP. Also, they're all people who I know and have worked with have known. I mean, Heide and Iain, they were the people who first got me into self-publishing, so it's really nice to be able to involve them in it and work with them.

They both live fairly close to me, so we'll do research. One of the series we're writing is in Birmingham, so we'll meet up, and we'll go for a walk around the locations and find the place the body is going to be dumped and that sort of thing, and then go and have lunch and plan the book. So it makes it really enjoyable working. I'm working with friends.

The team in Ackroyd Publishing that I've built as well, we're developing friendships within the team. It was great when I got everybody together last March and we went down to Dorset to see everybody getting on so well and enjoying themselves.

Obviously, that's important if you've got a really small team. So I think it just adds another dimension. It takes a little bit away from that loneliness of being a writer sitting in your room producing words.

Joanna: It doesn't sound like that's your life at all.

I love that you mentioned James Patterson because he gets a lot of flak because he is the most read author, the richest author, the guy who sells the most books. As you say, he co-writes with lots and lots of different people, in lots and lots of different series.

He does still have his own, I think that Alex Cross series is just his. I think what's also interesting is you have Ackroyd, or you mentioned before, “crime books that readers want to read.”

I just want to remind listeners if they don't know, and I'll link back to our first interview, but you were not successful with your first books, right?

Rachel: No.

Joanna: And you pivoted to write crime books that readers want to read. So can you maybe just go into that a bit more? As in—

How do you know what readers want to read?How do you add in this kind of Rachel McLean secret sauce that makes your book sell so much after failing at the beginning?

Rachel: Well, I started out by writing books that crossed genres and found it really hard to market them in any of the genres that they were in. What was useful was that I learned a lot about marketing during that time.

So when I did pivot to crime, I already had a head start there because I already had a mailing list that I'd started to grow. I already knew how to advertise and so forth.

What I did, it was January 2020, and I was at a point in my day job—I was a technical writer, I wrote about WordPress—and WordPress was in the throes of changing the programming language that it used.

I was either going to have to go back and learn JavaScript, or I was going to have to double down on the publishing and make a success of that. I was definitely keener on making a success of my writing than I was on learning JavaScript.

I thought, right, what do I need to do in order to reach more readers?I was inspired by people like JD Kirk, Barry Hutchison and LJ Ross, and looking at what they'd done and the kind of books that they'd written.

Something that was becoming very prominent at the time was, in crime, the idea of the location being a key element and almost being like another character.

So my first series, which I wrote in 2020, was set in Birmingham. Those were the Zoe Finch books. I wrote those in Birmingham because I knew Birmingham like the back of my hand.

It actually turned out quite convenient because it was lock down and I couldn't have gone on research trips anywhere. I was using Google Maps the whole time. I was probably responsible for half the statistics on people using Google Maps that they do at the government briefings every evening.

What I did was I read authors of crime and thrillers who were very successful. So I read books by some of my comp authors who were published by the smaller digital-first publishers and the big indies. I read books by people like James Patterson and Dan Brown.

I pulled apart what it was about their books that worked and what readers liked. I also read their reviews.I was inspired to do that by, I can't remember the name of it, but I think it's Six Figure Author by Chris Fox. He said, don't read your reviews, read your competitors reviews, and find out what it is that readers love or hate.

Sometimes what readers hate will be exactly the same as what they love because you'll get some readers who are turned off by the very thing that attracts other readers to the book. So I did that, and the thing that came out was the locations and the characters.

So I spent quite a lot of time identifying what my locations were going to be. Also a lot of time working on my characters and my central team, and I developed them. Then when the Zoe Finch series came to a close, I thought, right, where am I going to go next?

I'd been visiting Dorset since I was a child. I first went there as a baby. My parents had a caravan down there. So I know Dorset really, really well. So I thought, I'll go down to Dorset.

It felt quite risky moving onto another series, because Zoe Finch books had sold enough for me to be able to give up my day job. They hadn't been hugely successful, but I was a full time author, which was what I wanted to achieve. So I moved to Dorset, and it turned out to be the best thing I ever did because a lot more people want to read about Dorset than want to read about Birmingham.

Joanna: For Americans who might not know, it's a lovely coastal area, as opposed to a gritty, massive city.

Rachel: Exactly. Imagine reading about Maine as against reading about Boston, I suppose. The other thing that worked really well was the character that I moved to Dorset, DCI Lesley Clarke, she was Zoe's boss in the Zoe Finch books. So she was a DCI.

I always enjoy writing sidekicks. I sometimes find sidekicks are a bit more real in my mind because I can see them through the eyes of the protagonist. I loved writing Lesley, so I thought, I'm going to move this grumpy middle-aged Brummie down to Dorset and see how she copes and what they make of her.

People love Lesley. Some people hate her. I've sat in author events where people have had arguments over whether they like Lesley or not, but as far as I'm concerned, that means she's real in their minds whether they like her or not. She is quite grumpy and she doesn't suffer fools gladly.

So, yes, it turned out to be the best decision I ever could have made to write a series in Dorset. I thought I was bringing that series to a close nine books in because there was a series arc. That's another thing I always do in my books, there is always a series arc.

That might be police corruption or the death of a major character, well, who would have been a major character. So it's Lesley's predecessor. That came to a close, and I thought, right, that's it, I'm done with these books.

I constantly kept having people say, is Lesley coming back? When are you going to write Lesley again? I had about a year of that, so I'm now writing another nine books in that series.

The paperbacks will be published by Hera. So Hera have republished the Dorset Crime existing books in print, but they'll be publishing them as new books in paperback. So that'll be really interesting because I'll be getting new books into bookshops.

Joanna: That's a traditional publisher?Rachel: Yes. So Hera, they are a small publisher, a bit like Bookouture. So Keshini Naidoo, she used to work for Bookouture. She was the woman who discovered Angela Marsons.

What I like about Hera is that they are all about mainstream fiction written by diverse authors. So their authors are not the normal run of the mill people you expect to be published by traditional publishers.

They were interested in my books because Lesley is gay, and I always have gay characters in my books. It's working really well working with Hera. The way they work, and their ethos and their values fit really well with mine.

Because they're small, I'm sure I get a lot more attention than I would if I was at a bigger publisher. We just work really well together.

Joanna: So I want to come onto something—

Amazon recently named you as one of the top 10 most read authors on Kindle Unlimited in the UK over the last 10 years.[Press release here on Amazon]

That is astounding. Like, how did that feel, by the way?

Rachel: Oh, it felt amazing. It was really funny because the evening that it happened, JM Dalgliesh was number eight, and I was number nine. He posted a screenshot of it to Facebook where he cut it off under his name, and I thought, oh, I'm not on that list. Then Sally, my wife, she went and found the press release and said, “There you are on the list, you're just underneath him!” So I joked about it with him afterwards.

That felt like a huge achievement because there's some really big names there, and also there are people who've been writing a lot longer than me.

It's only been three and a bit years that I've been publishing my crime books, and to have sold enough to be one of the most read authors in KU in that time, it felt great.

My readers were lovely about it, because obviously I put in my newsletter and my social media, and readers were so pleased for me.

One of the things I love about being an author is that your readers want you to succeed, and they want to help you.I refer to my readers as my reader army. I do things like when I've got a new edition of a paperback coming out, or a new book coming out, and I want them to buy in bookshops, I'll say to them, “Right, you're my reader army. I want you to go into bookshops and ask them to stock it.”

They'll do it. They want to help me out. So, yes, it was great.

Joanna: I wondered because you're so big on KU, which is obviously eBook first, you mentioned Shopify earlier, and also now books in bookstores.

How are you getting your readers to move from reading just in KU, into buying from your store, buying from bookshops, buying in other ways than they've been used to?Rachel: Yes, that is a process that we're still working on and experimenting with. So Alex, who works on my advertising, he is experimenting with various ad campaigns that run to the store.

One of the main benefits of running ads to a store, as I know you've mentioned on your podcast, is the fact that you can use conversion ads instead of traffic ads in Facebook. So Facebook actually knows if they're converting, and can therefore run better targeted ads.

It also means that we have access to data. So I know who's buying books, and I can retarget them, and I can upsell and so forth.

Where I've had the most success is in audiobooks because I found that people seem to be less wedded to listen to an audiobook on Audible than they are to getting their eBooks on Amazon. People find it difficult to understand that you can read a book on your Kindle that you haven't bought from Amazon.

So I've been pushing quite hard on audiobooks. I've been pushing the fact that I have a release date for my audiobooks on my website, which is the same as the release date for the eBook and the paperback.

It's a reliable release date. If somebody pre-orders it from me, they will get their file on that date. Whereas Audible, I can't set a release date, I can't set a pre order. I found that starting with audiobooks has been quite successful.

I've been doing it mainly through my mailing list, through my newsletter, and slowly educating people and encouraging them. My next experiment I'm running, right at the end of this month it starts. I'm running a kind of Kickstarter, but I'm running it on my website instead of on Kickstarter. So it will be a two week period. So I've already got a sign up page for people to be notified when it goes live, and it'll be a two week period.

I've produced a coffee table book, which is Rachel McLean's Dorset Crime Trail. It's the story of each of the locations from each of the books in the series and why I chose to write there. It gives you information about the location, but it's told through the lens of me doing research trips to those locations. It's very anecdotal. There are stories from my childhood in those locations and that kind of thing. Lots of photos, including stock imagery, but also my photos as well.

So that's going to be exclusive to my website for two weeks, and there's going to be bundles and so forth, and add ons, just like you would with Kickstarter.

I figured that it was probably easier, because I'm already trying to educate my readers to use my website, to continue doing that than to add another platform in right now. Crime readers tend to be older and tend to be less likely to be on Kickstarter.

I got the idea for doing this from Elana Johnson, who has done the same thing. She writes cozy—well, not cozy—sweet romance, and so the demographic of her readers is quite similar to mine. She has run “Kickstarters” on her website very successfully, so we'll see how it goes.

I mean, obviously it's the first one, and there'll be teething problems and so forth. It's turning out to be a lot more work than a normal launch. I was on a video call to Rebecca, my publishing manager, yesterday, and we were trying to work out all the dates.

So it was like, right, when does it go live? When do we have to place the orders? When do we send them out? When will they eventually be released? Bookshops want them as well, but I don't want bookshops getting them until after the Kickstarter.

Joanna: Which is not a Kickstarter.

Rachel: Which is not a Kickstarter. A Kickstarter, non-Kickstarter, yes.

Joanna: I think what you're talking about is essentially a bigger pre-order, and I think that's really important to note. Kickstarter is a brand. It's a different website. It's a very different model.

What you're talking about, and what I think I'm going to do for a book as well next year, is that sort of pre-launch on your website for premium editions that you print after the pre-orders happen. Whereas indies are normally used to you can do a pre-order with an eBook, and it's done, and it just goes out, and not a big deal.

I think that's great, and I'm super jealous because I totally want to do a book like that around locations, but I have so many.

Rachel: Oh, and I know the problems that you've been having with your photographs of churches.

Joanna: Yes, photo permissions. Oh my goodness. Someone's just said to me that you just hire someone and they do all of that. It just takes a lot longer than I'm used to, but I think that's really interesting. On the audiobook—

You are selling the audiobooks through Shopify, so you're directing everyone to BookFunnel?Rachel: Well, as soon as somebody makes the purchase in Shopify, BookFunnel then sends them the email with the file.

Joanna: Just so people know, this is another app that people have to have. They have to have the BookFunnel app to listen to the audio. It's fascinating to me that what you're saying is people are more, I guess, happy to download a new app for audio than they are to consider using BookFunnel to get an eBook onto their Kindle device, which, again, is not difficult at all.

I think the more people like you and me and everyone, the more people who are actually educating people on buying direct, the easier it's going to be. We have to remember, this is only year one or two of the kind of move into selling direct.

Fast forward five years, 10 years, where will we be then? I think it'll be a very interesting ecosystem of what we can do with these direct things. I love that you're doing so much.

So on that, I do want to ask you as well, authors love to use tools. Now, you're working with a lot of freelancers. You're working with different publishers. You use different tools. One of the big discussions right now for authors is AI. So I wondered—

What AI tools are you using as part of your business?Rachel: I use ChatGPT to help with when I'm coming up with ideas for books and when I'm brainstorming. So the first book in my Petra McBride series, the one that's set in Paris, I had an idea which was around artworks in the Louvre.

So I needed to find artworks with particular themes, and I needed to expand on those themes and think about how those might relate to characters. So I spent a day just on my phone with Chat, just throwing ideas back and forth, and getting it to identify artworks in the Louvre that might fit with this idea.

Then getting it to tell me about areas of Paris that exemplified the kind of people who fit with the themes of these artworks. Then once I'd done that, I sort of shortlisted and came up with a final list of the artworks that I want to use in the book.

So what I then got ChatGPT to do was give me a walking route around the Louvre which will take me to all of those artworks in the most efficient way possible. So that when I go there on my research trip, I don't have to wander around the Louvre for hours trying to find all these places.

Also, I wanted it to find artworks that would be near the Mona Lisa, for example, but that's not the Mona Lisa. So nobody's looking at this other artwork, and that kind of thing. I got it to identify what they were near and what else would be going on in that part of the building.

So it's really useful for that kind of thing, so I use it at that point. Also, when I've got a whole load of ideas for a book and I'm trying to pull them all together into a coherent structure, I'll put what I've got into ChatGPT and get it to help me shuffle all the parts together and put them into a coherent structure.

I do a lot of the start of my location research often on ChatGPT. So I'm currently writing a book set on the Isle of Arran in Scotland. Before I went there, I spent a lot of time on ChatGPT. It's based around archeology, this book, researching archeological sites, the history of the island and so forth.

Then getting it to give me sources because sometimes it does make things up. You have to be aware of that. So getting it to give me links and sources, and then delving into those, and then finding places I could visit.

I also use Novelcrafter. So I use Novelcrafter with Chat and with Claude to help me with editing. I'll put a first draft through a pass of a fine tune that I've created in Novelcrafter before I then do the second draft. So it cleans it up for me.

I've developed a fine tune that is based on my own writing, where I fed that into ChatGPT. I'll put my first draft in and get it to run that fine tune, so it just tidies up all the messy bits before I do the second draft.

I find also ChatGPT really helpful because I do a lot of dictation. I'll often dictate a first draft, or I dictate my newsletter quite a lot. So I'll do my newsletter when I'm sitting in my car waiting to pick my son up from college or something, and I dictate it.

I use Otter.ai to dictate because I find that Otter is really good for the accuracy of picking up the right words, but it doesn't add punctuation. It doesn't add speech or anything. It adds punctuation as if you're in a meeting, and assumes that you're different speakers, instead of adding dialogue.

ChatGPT, when you give it something in Otter, it's really good at working out what's actually going on in terms of what's dialogue and what's not, and adding the paragraph breaks in the right place, and punctuation. So I do that as well, and that speeds things up, both with fiction and with the newsletter.

I'm constantly looking for new ways to use it and for it to help me be more efficient and have access to more information.Joanna: I love that. I do think those of us, like you and I, we're pretty heavy on our research, and we use places. Like you say, if you use places and art, I also have a lot of art history in my books, and archeology and all of that. It does just really help to have a creative collaborator to help you.

I often will do exactly the same as you. I was thinking listening to you, and this is the point with AI to me as well, you are leveraging a tool to make more Rachel. Like Rachel more Rachel, for you to put more stuff out into the world.

You're also working with other humans who are helping you put more Rachel out into the world. I've also been wondering about how many issues people have with AI. I wonder, partly, if it's to do with creative confidence.

You are a confident writer. You've written millions of words at this point, as have I. Your tone of voice, my tone of voice around AI, it has no emotion. Or the only emotion it has is happy and positive. Like this is a great tool, this is really helpful to me, and I can do more with this.

I guess how I'm thinking about this is we're confident that what we produce is our work. Also, you came out of technical writing, and I was an IT consultant.

Do you think our technical experience plays into confidence around AI?Rachel: I think so. I think the fact that I worked in IT before means that my default position with any new tech is to want to explore it and see what it can do for me, rather than to be scared of it.

I also believe very strongly that AI in itself is not good or bad. It is just a tool, and if good or bad things are done with it, that is because of the people who are doing those things. So if people use AI unethically, that's not the fault of the AI. That's the fault of the way that those people are either using or configuring the AI.

You talk a lot about doubling down on being human. Obviously, I'm using AI so it's not the full extent of my creative process, by any means. I'm adding on. I would never release something that had just been written by AI. I always work on it as well.

I also don't release books that have just been worked on by one of my co-authors. I work on them as well because I'm adding that Rachel. I mean, I actually call it Rachelifying.

Also, I've been doing a lot more video. So it's that thing of being visibly human and being yourself. So, interestingly, I've been using TikTok, but I hardly ever put videos out on TikTok, but I use TikTok as a video editor. TikTok's editing tools are really good, and you don't have to pay for them.

If you download the video that you've created before you publish it, you can download it without any TikTok watermarks on it, and then I'll use it on Instagram or my newsletter or whatever. So I've been doing quite a lot of video, like little snippets of me.

A thing that's becoming quite a part of my brand is me walking along a beach somewhere, talking about what the weather's doing, and where I'm going today to research the next book. Also, where I'm going to dump a body.

If you ask my readers, what does Rachel do? It would be she finds a beauty spot, and she dumps a body in it.

I always do videos from my crime scenes, and those go out on social media on publication day.It's me, standing in the crime scene, telling people, “Right, this is where this is going to happen. This is where the tents are going to go.” Forensics and all that sort of stuff. It just brings it to life for readers, and I think makes them feel part of that world that I'm creating as well.

Joanna: I love that. I keep thinking, yes, I must do more video, and then I just never do. I was looking at some of yours because they're on your Shopify store as well on your book pages, and I really think that is great.

I mean, it kept me on your Shopify store page to watch a video, which gives all the signals to the algorithms or whatever. So I think, actually, it's a really strong thing to do that. So I urge people to go and have a look at one of your videos.

As much as I think you're amazing, I mean, it's not like they're amazing professional videos. They're pretty human.

Rachel: That's part of the brand is. So, for example, I recently bought a gimbal, which is a stick thing that you put your phone on and video yourself, and it supposedly self-levels and follows you as you move around. Sometimes it goes wrong, and sometimes I don't put my phone in it properly, and the balance goes off, and it just goes a bit weird.

Instead of thinking, oh, I need to edit that out, I'll just laugh about it and say, “Oh, it's doing it again. I've got to work out this gimbal,” and that just becomes part of what readers enjoy, that you're not trying to create this really polished thing.

I do a lot of video where I'm somewhere where it's windy, and I'm yelling to try and be heard. I have got little lavalier mics with the little fluffy thing on to stop the wind noise. I'm sure there's a technical term for it.

Joanna: It's called the dead cat.

Rachel: The dead cat, that's it. Oh goodness.

Even so, when you're standing on top of a mountain in Scotland filming a video of a crime scene, there's going to be wind noise, and I'm sort of yelling into the camera.

Sometimes I'll end up just doing a voiceover afterwards, but people quite enjoy that. They find it quite funny that I'm about to get blown into the sea somewhere or something like that. So, yes, I think that lack of professionalism.

I would say to people, if you're planning on making video, don't worry at all about it being polished. Just record yourself in a natural way, as if you would if you were sending a video update to one of your friends or family or something like that. Just make it you.

Joanna: Well, I'm excited to talk to you again in like two and a half years. So it's been two and a half years since we last spoke, and in two and a half years, it'll be very interesting to see where you are then because your trajectory is looking pretty good.

Tell people where they can find you, and your books, and everything you do online.Rachel: Yes, they can find everything at RachelMclean.com, which is where those videos are. All my books are available for sale there as well, and my newsletter.

Joanna: Brilliant. Thanks so much for your time, Rachel. That was great.

Rachel: Thank you.

Takeaways* Rachel MacLean has sold over two million copies of her books. * She has scaled her business by hiring a team of freelancers. * Engaging with readers is a top priority for Rachel. * Collaboration with co-authors enhances creativity and productivity. * Rachel enjoys the flexibility of managing her own team. * Ambition drives Rachel, but lifestyle is also a key motivation. * Understanding reader preferences is crucial for success. * Location plays a significant role in her crime fiction. * DCI Leslie Clark is a beloved character among readers. * Rachel plans to expand Ackroyd Publishing with more authors. Hera focuses on mainstream fiction by diverse authors. * Being recognized as a top author is a significant achievement. * Reader engagement is crucial for an author's success. * Transitioning readers from ebooks to physical books is a process. * Audiobooks have been a successful avenue for reaching readers. * Innovative marketing strategies can enhance reader engagement. * AI tools can assist in brainstorming and structuring ideas. * Authenticity in branding helps connect with readers. * Using technology creatively can enhance the writing process. * Embracing new tools can lead to greater efficiency in writing.

The post Scaling An Author Business With Rachel McLean first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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The Creative Penn Podcast just hit 10 million downloads as reported by my audio host, Blubrry!

The podcast is also the main content on my YouTube channel @thecreativepenn, which has had over 3.9 million views, so the total could be closer to 14m. I'm pretty happy with that, so thanks for listening!

Here are some fun stats, and then I share 7 lessons learned that are also applicable for authors and other creatives.

• Start where you are and improve your craft, tools, and technology over time
• Focus on value for the listeners (or readers)
• Everyone starts with no audience, no email list — and no clue!
• It's all about the relationships you build along the way
• People want to know about you. Decide on your boundaries — before you're forced to.
• Podcasting (or being an author) can be a viable business — if you design it that way.
• You will only sustain what is ‘worth it' to you over the long term. Persistence and time in the market make a big difference.

You can find The Creative Penn Podcast on your favourite podcast app, or the backlist and links are here.

The Creative Penn Podcast StatsMy first episode went out on 15 March 2009, and there are now 775 episodes of the podcast. Links to all at TheCreativePenn.com/podcast.

The show has been downloaded in 229 countries with the top three countries being the USA (61%), UK (12%), and Australia (7%), and the most surprising being 2 downloads from Antarctica!

The four most downloaded episodes through Blubrry are as follows:

• Writing fiction and improving your fiction book description with Michaelbrent Collings (28,264 downloads)
• How to use mystery to hook your readers with Jonah Lehrer (28,215)
• Tips for indie author success and 20BooksTo50K with Craig Martelle (28,199)
• Author mindset: Strengths for writers with Becca Syme (27,786)

The four most watched/listened to on YouTube are quite different:

• Improve your dialogue with James Scott Bell (75,200)
• How to sell a million books with CJ Lyons (59,689)
• How to write a novel with the snowflake method with Randy Ingermanson (54,209)
• Story Engineering with Larry Brooks (52,520)

Why are these numbers so different? An audio podcast generally gets a relatively stable number of people listening every week, so there is less variability in listening numbers. YouTube is based on search and algorithms, so some videos get a LOT of views and others get almost nothing.

7 Lessons Learned From Over 10 Million Podcast Episode Downloads(1) Start where you are and improve your craft, tools, and technology over timeYou don't need to know everything in advance in order to write a book, or publish, or start a podcast. Just get started and learn and adapt along the way.

I recorded my first podcast interview in March 2009 over a landline, which I put on speakerphone, next to which I placed a handheld digital audio recorder.

I didn't really know what I was doing, but despite my nerves, I was still able to interview a breakout self-published author in the Australian book scene, Rachael Bermingham. (I lived in Brisbane, Australia at the time.)

I've always done extensive research on my guests and provided questions in advance, but my interview skills have definitely improved since then — both as a host and a guest. Everything gets better with practice, and that includes your writing, too!

My tools have also changed. My recording went from a phone to Skype to Zoom and now Riverside.fm, and I've upgraded my microphone (and pop filter) several times.

I used to just record in any room with the accompanying echo noises Later, I moved into a padded cupboard, and now I have a home audio booth where I record my solo episodes, weekly introduction, and my audiobooks.

Joanna Penn's home audio sound boothMy editing tools went from Audacity to Amadeus Pro, and I now use Descript.com to edit the main audio before mastering with Amadeus Pro and Auphonic.

I still use the same WordPress plugin, Blubrry, which is one of the oldest and most reputable independent podcast hosts. I have always paid for hosting the feed, first on AWS and then on Blubrry itself. As ever, I really love my independence!

If you're not paying for a product, then question how that company is making money. Is your content actually the product? (as is the case for most social media platforms).

the logo has changed over the years as well, both for the podcast and my brand. Get started and reinvent as you go.(2) Focus on value for the listeners (or readers)If you try to write a book in a market you don't read, you will likely get it wrong and readers won't resonate with the content or buy more from you.

If you start a podcast without an understanding of what the audience want, then you will fail in a similar way. But you can avoid this by BEING the audience you seek to connect with.

When I started The Creative Penn Podcast in 2009, I had self-published a couple of non-fiction books, and I'd learned so much from those initial failures that I wanted to share what I'd learned.

Me in brisbane, australia, 2009, with my first 3 self-published books, all now rewritten, updated, re-issued under different titles, multiple times! I was also really lonely and I didn't have any author friends or a community. I wanted a way to virtually meet and talk to other authors so I could learn from those ahead of me on the path— and maybe make some friends.

Over the years since, I've continued to interview people who I want to talk to and learn from as well as share my own lessons learned from the author journey.

I never designed a podcast for a target market. I didn't have to, because I was that market. It's the same with my books. I don't write to market. I just write books about what I learn (non-fiction), or stories I would want to read (fiction).

The content of the podcast has changed over time, and these days, I focus much more on the business of being an author as well as the writing craft.

But I'm still an author and a podcaster, and I'm still learning things, so I am still my own audience and the downloads demonstrate the content is clearly still of value, because I am still getting downloads of the show, and still selling books.

(3) Everyone starts with no audience, no email list — and no clue! Back in 2009, podcasting wasn't popular, and it didn't really move into the mainstream until the true crime podcast Serial took off in 2014.

Between 2009 and 2014, it often felt like I was howling into the wind, as tumbleweed rolled past in the empty desert. Those were also the years when self-publishing was considered ‘vanity press' and when authors who went indie were generally shunned and considered to be desperate wannabes instead of smart business people.

Thankfully, that has mostly changed, and the fights about indie vs trad have dissipated, to be replaced by fights about AI and whatever is the latest drama in Authorlandia!

From 2014, my traffic started to take off and grew for a few years before leveling off and has remained pretty steady over the last 5+ years. Episodes now get between 8000 – 20,000 downloads, depending on the topic.

But like everyone, I started with no audience, no readers, no listeners, no books, no income from my creative work. I just worked steadily for years, producing content in different ways.

Slowly, people discovered the show and my books, mainly through word of mouth and SEO (search engine optimisation) since I have never advertised the podcast.

So take heart if you are just getting started. Create, put your content out there, in whatever medium you choose, and over time, you will attract an audience.

(4) It's all about the relationships you build along the wayThe Creative Penn Podcast really has changed my life in so many ways, and the relationships I've built are perhaps the most important part.

It helped me find other indie authors who were doing what I wanted to do, and I was able to meet many of them online and at conferences. Some of those initial conversations on the show turned into IRL friendships, and others turned into business opportunities and collaborations.

Me with Orna Ross and Sacha Black, two great friends I made through the podcastThere's also the relationships with you, the listeners of the show, even if I don't know all of your names.

Audio is such a personal and intimate medium, and long-form audio even more so. You know so much about me — more than my family sometimes! — and when we meet in person, or you email with your thoughts, I know there is more of a connection because you listen to the show.

Thank you for making me part of your weekly listening time!

As an author, you need other writers for a sustainable long-term career. You need people who understand the challenges of the creative life. You need a community, even if you're an introvert, happy working on your own most of the time.

You don't need a podcast for this. You can find people through online groups, going to conferences, and social media.

But then take it a step further. We are humans, we need other people!

If you resonate with someone, connect with them for a coffee offline, or have a private zoom call. This is ‘friend dating' and it's something you'll need to do multiple times over your career as you change, your friends change, and maybe you change locations and life circumstances.

(Obviously, this needs to be appropriate to your life and family situation, as well as your stage on the author journey.)

(5) People want to know about you. Decide on your boundaries — before you're forced to. For the first few years of the podcast, I didn't do an introduction. I just jumped straight into the interview. After all, no one wanted to know about me or my life — but it turned out they did!

A listener emailed and suggested I do an introduction as a way for people to get to know me as well as my guests, and years later, I know many of you come for the introduction and might not stay for the interview.

I've changed it up over the years adding the different sections around news and AI updates as well as my personal journey, but it's a core part of my show now.

As a listener to other podcasts, I also understand that listeners come back each week for the host and their take on whatever the topic is. Guests may borrow part of that attention and may have book sales or a new fan based on the episode, but listeners return again and again to the same show for the host.

To foster this kind of connection, whether it's as a podcast host or as an author, you have to double down on being human. You have to share personal things, whether that's the inspiration for your books and stories, or photos from your life, which you can put in your email newsletter, and/or social media.

You need to do this, but you get to set your boundaries. For example, I talk about my husband Jonathan sometimes, but we don't share a last name and he has his own career, so I respect his privacy and don't share our personal photos. However, our cats, Cashew and Noisette, and photos from my research trips are all over social media!

Cashew and Noisette, our british shorthair cats, 2024Some authors talk about their kids but give them code-names and don't share pictures for privacy reasons. Some authors with pseudonyms just share pictures from their garden or things they like, giving an insight into them as a person without revealing identifying details.

You have to decide on your boundaries, but do it early, when no one knows who you are. Because if a book takes off or you go viral on social media, or something else happens to bring you attention, you want to have privacy in place to protect yourself.

(6) Podcasting (or being an author) can be a viable business — if you design it that way.When I decided to become a full-time author, I always intended it to be a viable business. I was not going to leave my six-figure consulting job to be a poor author in a garret, so I planned my creative business — and then took action towards that goal. [More on this in Your Author Business Plan.]

I created this business plan in March 2009I started writing seriously in 2006, left my job in 2011, and in 2015, I made six figures, and then the following year, multi-six-figures, which I have sustained ever since across multiple streams of income. Check out my timeline for more details.

The podcast was originally designed as part of that business plan as a marketing channel to being people to my books and courses, which at the time were all non-fiction based.

Podcasting works very well for marketing non-fiction books, and guesting on shows is a great way to reach readers, even if you don't want to start a show yourself.

The early years of The Creative Penn Podcast did achieve the goal of marketing, but around 2015, the hosting costs were getting expensive, and it was taking more time as I moved from ad hoc to a weekly show.

Amanda Palmer's book, The Art of Asking came out in 2014, which focused on building genuine connections with her audience and personal stories about crowdfunding and subscriptions. It talks about embracing the discomfort of asking, and highlights how openness can foster deeper relationships and support creativity.

Amanda is VERY open, down to doing nude pics and letting her fans write on her body — not really my style! I'm also (very) British and we are not good at the hard sell, and never want to sound ‘desperate,' so I struggled with knowing how I could ask for money for the show after years of it being free.

That year, I talked to Jim Kukral about aspects of selling direct through our own stores as well as crowdfunding. The interview is just as current now as it was back then, especially as it seems indie authors are finally embracing the direct model.

jim kukral and joanna penn, pubsense summit, charleston, usa, 2015Here's a (lightly edited) clip from the interview with Jim Kukral where I talk about the struggle of asking for support: Jim: The whole concept of patrons goes back thousands of years. Michelangelo had a patron, right? Patrons are a very important part of the artist/storytelling community, and we've gotten away from it, and we've gotten into this transaction based hard sticker price world with e-commerce, right?

I guess the whole entire concept of patronage is letting people support you. It doesn't have to be one wealthy patron who gave you a stipend to do your art for the next 30 years. You could have a thousand people, or fifty people each giving you a little bit of money that can help support you. And I believe that every artist and content creator should be trying this 'cause it's an amazingly powerful movement.

You need to use words like support. Don't ask for handouts. Say it's my content. I'm giving it to you. If you would like to support me and the work that I do, then you can go here.

It's a little psychological switch in a person's head when they hear, ‘you can support me,' as opposed to ‘you can donate to me.' You have so many fans who love to listen to the podcast. Would 2000 people give you $1 every time you do a podcast?

Jo: And that's the thing, because I've now got transcripts and there's the time it takes. There is an amount I would want to make just to cover costs, let alone anything else. But I have been thinking about this — let's talk about the psychology of asking. I'm very British. I want to talk about money, but it is a very difficult thing for many people to even be thinking about these things.

Jim: This is a tough thing, because we've been told and taught that it's like begging, right?

Jo: I don't wanna do that!

Jim: Yeah, but you have to change your mindset, right?

Jo: It's interesting because I just wrote down like when I thought, why am I having problem? The problem I have is being independent. And that's so crazy because that's what we're talking about.

I mean, like even my mum, I would never even ask my mum for money. I had a job at 13 and earned the money that I needed to do to for stuff. And I've always felt that way but what you're saying is actually is to be independent, we need to develop that kind of trust.

I mean, this is like an emotional risk though, isn't it? What if I put myself out there and nobody catches me and I hit the floor?

Jim: I think it's going to depend on who your true fans are and if you've really connected with them or not. This will not work for people who create content that's not amazing.

People are fans of things that really entertain them or solve their problems. So if you're not creating something amazing, this will never work for anyone which is why it's the level playing field, only the people who really are producing something that people want are going to be the ones who are gonna be able to do this.”

Click here for the whole interview with Jim on selling direct. Jim is a professional speaker and non-fiction self-help author and used to co-host the Sell More Books Show with Bryan Cohen. You can still find him at JimKukral.com]

Amanda's book and the discussion with Jim helped me reframe the podcast.

I decided it needed to produce income as well as be a marketing channel in order to make it worth continuing. In 2015, I added corporate sponsor ad reads with the earliest being Kobo Writing Life, Draft2Digital, and ProWritingAid, still sponsors of the show, and companies I use personally and am more than happy to recommend. I later expanded to add Ingram Spark, FindawayVoices, and also Publisher Rocket, and Written Word Media.

I've been approached by companies who offer more money in terms of sponsorship, but who aren't a good fit for the show, and it's important to me that I only advertise those companies I continue to use and recommend.

THANKS to my corporate sponsors — you are fantastic!

Also in 2015, I started my subscription at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn and this started as a way for listeners to support the show and get an extra solo episode a month where I answered Patron questions.

The top tier of Patrons also get my non-fiction ebooks as part of the subscription. I also occasionally did extra things but the main focus was supporting the show.

At the end of 2023, as part of my 15 year pivot, I changed the Patreon into almost a separate Community where I now share extra weekly content, mainly on using various AI tools, as well as writing craft and author business audio and videos. I've also started doing live Office Hours and I still do the monthly Q&A audio.

This has dramatically accelerated growth and I now have over 1200 paid Patrons, some of whom have said they would stick around in that Community even if I ended the podcast (don't worry, that's not happening at the moment!)

THANK YOU, Patrons! You are amazing! Come and join us at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn where you can get everything for less than a coffee a month, or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous.

(7) You will only sustain what is ‘worth it' to you over the long term. Persistence and time in the market make a big difference.I'm not the only podcaster in the indie author community, but I'm pretty sure I'm the longest running at this point!

Since I started my show in March 2009, there have been many other podcasts that have started and ended — and the same is true of the author community.

There have been authors with breakout successes who disappeared as fast as they arrived. Others stuck around for years, but eventually faded away. There are some who are still here, many who started before me, some who came after me, who have stuck it out through the good times and the bad.

There are many good reasons people end a podcast or decide being an author is not for them. But there is only one reason to keep doing either.

It has to be worth it.

The definition of ‘worth it' differs for everyone, but for me, there are a couple of reasons I continue to host The Creative Penn Podcast.

(a) Patrons and listeners tell me it is still useful and — even though I am an ‘older' voice in the industry now — I still have something to contribute to the conversation, especially in the era of generative AI.

Perhaps my longevity even gives me some authority because I've seen so much drama rise and fall over the years, and I know ‘this too shall pass.'

(b) I'm also still learning, and my #1 Clifton Strengths is Learner! Every conversation I have that makes me think differently, or helps my craft or business, is worth it, and to be able to help others by recording the conversation is an added bonus!

(c) It makes great money! With corporate sponsors and the Patreon, in addition to affiliate links and marketing my books and other things, The Creative Penn Podcast is a significant business on its own. I love having multiple streams of income, so it's worth it financially to continue.

Some people might say that ‘loving' something is enough. That might carry you through for a while, but it's not sustainable for the long term.

I loved my Books and Travel Podcast and happily did that for a few years. The evergreen episodes are all still on the feed and the transcripts are on my blog.

But as much as I loved the conversations and connection, I could not figure out a decent business model for it, and I learned enough about the travel writing industry to see that it was not a good fit for me.

There's nothing wrong with ending a show, and there's nothing wrong with deciding you don't want to keep pushing in an author career either.

Everyone changes over time, and what is ‘worth it' for you at one book or the first 20 episodes of a podcast will be quite different by book 10, or a podcast you are still trying to do years later without enough reward.

But if you do stay the course, your time in the market becomes an almost unstoppable force on its own. With time and persistence and continuous creation over years, you gather readers and listeners and income streams, and together, they snowball into something bigger than you ever thought they might be.

I'm not promising I will be here for 20 million downloads — who knows how long that will take! — but for now, The Creative Penn Podcast continues on, Creatives, and I hope you will keep listening as take another step forward on the author journey.

Let me know your thoughts or any questions in the comments. Thanks for listening!

The post 7 Lessons Learned From Over 10 Million Downloads Of The Creative Penn Podcast first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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Can you be successful as an author across different genres and different pen names? How do traditional publishing and going indie compare? How can you diversify into multiple streams of income as an author? With Emily E.K. Murdoch.

In the intro, Planning for retirement [Self-Publishing Advice]; my list of money books; Red flags in serialised (and other) fiction contracts [Self-Published Advice]; The Author's Guild partners with Created by Humans for AI licensing; Nobel Prizes for AI-related research [The Economist]; Last chance for Blood Vintage, and where did the idea come from?; plus, what I'm working on next.

Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Emily E K Murdoch is the USA Today bestselling author of over 100 historical romances across medieval, western and regency, and mixed between steamy and sweet. She's also the author of nonfiction history book Regina: The Queens Who Could Have Been under Emily Murdoch Perkins.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Discovery writing vs outlining — how it affects your drafting and editing speed
• How to research in-person and online
• Securing a nonfiction traditional publishing deal
• Maintaining creative autonomy with a traditional publishing contract
• Opportunities that arise from being traditionally published
• Writing under different names for different genres
• Tips for pitching blurbs for your book
• How traditional publishers help with PR
• Diversifying your author business and creating multiple streams of income

You can find Emily at EmilyEKMurdoch.com.

Transcript of Interview with Emily E K MurdochJoanna: Emily E K Murdoch is the USA Today bestselling author of over 100 historical romances across medieval, western and regency, and mixed between steamy and sweet. She's also the author of nonfiction history book Regina: The Queens Who Could Have Been under Emily Murdoch Perkins. So welcome to the show, Emily.

Emily: Thank you so much for having me. It's a real joy to be here.

Joanna: Oh, yes. There's so much to talk about, but first up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.Emily: Well, I am one of those authors who very much grew up knowing that I wanted to be a writer. It's a family legend that my end of year report at five years old includes the phrase, “Emily keeps telling us she's going to be an author.”

So I very much started strong, but it was one of those things that was always going to be in the future. I was chatting about my dreams, about wanting to be an author, wanting to write, with a boyfriend as we were coming up to university graduation.

I said, “Look, I will be an author one day. It's absolutely going to happen.” You know, with all the confidence of a 21 year old. “But, obviously that is something I'll do when I'm older. I'll have to do a proper job first. So maybe in my 40s, 50s, 60s, when I've had a career, that's what I'll do.”

He looked at me and was like, “I don't understand why you've got to wait. I don't see why you can't write a book right now.” And reader, I married him! I also published for the first time two years later.

I was able to quit my job and “retire” into full time creativity before I turned 30.Joanna: Ooh. Everyone's like, okay, okay. So first up, excellent, that you married such a supportive person. I know some people listening will be like, oh my goodness. They're jealous because I think that's quite rare for someone to say that. Let's get into this hundred books. Give us an idea how many years ago that was and how you then progressed.

Emily: My first book came out in 2013, so that's 11 years ago. It was written and finished the year before then. I thought, I'll be smart about this. I'll take it to a publisher who really understands historical romance, which was the novel. So I actually submitted to Harlequin, which is part of HarperCollins.

I'm going to be honest, I didn't understand how slow traditional publishing was. I waited six months for a reply, which to me, was an age. Eventually I got tired, and I withdrew it, and I took it elsewhere. I do wonder sometimes what might have been if I'd stuck it out.

I do actually now publish, ironically, with Harlequin HarperCollins. So I've kind of come full circle in that way. So, yes, 11 years. 11 years, and I went full time after eight. So it was very much an overnight success with an eight year slow burn.

Joanna: Tell us how you're writing so fast.I feel like a lot of romance authors—the books are shorter, aren't they? So that is one aspect. Tell us about that.

Emily: Yes and no. Some of my historical romances are novellas. They're 30,000 to 40,000 words, so they are on the shorter end. One of my historical romance series is at least over 100,000 – 110,000 per book. So there's a real spread in terms of how long I write.

There are certain things you can teach about being a fast author. It's something that I do teach, and I do mentor and advise other authors on, but there is something I think innate. I don't want people to ever feel like they should be forcing themselves to write faster.

Having said that, I write 10,000 words a day, every working day. So that enables me to build up quite a backlog. It means that I can rapid release, whatever that looks like for you. Some of my rapid releases have been a book every three months. I've done a book every month.

I did a series once which was 12 Christmas novellas based on the 12 Days of Christmas song, and I released a novella a week for 12 weeks. October, November, December, the lead up to Christmas one year. So there's a real range there.

Joanna: I think this is so interesting because when you first said to your now husband, “I'll write it one day,” he said, “do it now,” you didn't just write one book. I feel like that's the other part of it—

If somebody wants to be a writer, it isn't just one book.Did you meet other people along the way who were like, how are you doing this? Like, shouldn't you just write one book for 10 years?

Emily: There are certainly people who maybe are new to publishing, or don't know publishing at all, and have this kind of Patrick Rothfuss or George R R Martin, “oh, it takes a decade to write a good book” mindset, and that's true sometimes.

Sometimes really great books come out of a decade of working, and reworking, and editing, and putting it down and picking it up again.

Really good books can also be written really fast. That has been a challenge for me in my craft because I can write very fast, and then I hate editing. So it's very easy for me to be tempted to go, well, it's written. I mean, it's written, my editor can worry about fixing it.

Actually, over the last, I would say five years, I've really tried to work on my editing myself, my own words, because actually there is that 10%, 20%, 30% improvement that I can bring before it even goes to another set of eyes.

Actually, that's when things slow down for me. The writing itself is very fast, but the editing is where that refinement and that polishing comes, as much as I loathe it. I'm quite open about the fact that I really struggle. It's just self-criticism, which is not something many creators enjoy.

Joanna: That's so interesting. I think there's people who love first draft like you, and people who love editing, like me. I feel like my first draft is not fun. I love the research, I love the ideas, I love kind of noodling around. Then—

I guess because I'm a discovery writer, I find it quite difficult to do the first draft. Then I love, love editing. I feel like my self-edit is where a lot of the work is done. So I think that there are two types of people in that kind of writing.

Emily: I completely agree. I do wonder if we mapped plotters versus pantsers across people who love first drafts or people who love edits, I think there'll be a strong correlation.

I love plotting. I'm a deep plotter. I plot very heavily before I write. So when I write, I write very fast, partly because I know exactly where I'm going. I even have dialogue snippets, descriptions, every scene is outlined. All I'm doing is following the pegs in a line along a road, and I know exactly where I'm going.

So when it comes to edits, it feels like I'm second guessing all the previous work I've put in. I've got lots and lots of author friends who, like yourself, are discovery writers. They're pantsing.

For them, the edits are where they spot all the clues that their subconscious laid down for them that they didn't notice at the time. So that is really joyful for them. I do wonder if there's a correlation there.

Joanna: I think you're probably right. I also think that people who do plot are more consistent with the 10,000 words a day, or whatever, because you know what you're going to write.

Whereas some days I might write—well, I don't ever really write that much. Some days I'll sit down and I find I kind of have a feeling for this scene, it might happen, and then some days it won't. So for people listening, it really doesn't matter how your process works. With the finished book, you wouldn't be able to tell how someone constructed it, basically.

I do just want to ask on your research. I love research, and one of the things that “slows me down” is the amount of research I do. So, for example, Spear of Destiny, I just had to go to Austria and Germany. I have to do these research trips because that's the only way I can write.

You're a medieval historian with degrees in history and English, as well as medieval studies. You've done lots of cool stuff, especially for someone like me who geeks out on ancient manuscripts and Gothic cathedrals.

Tell us a bit more about some of the interesting research you've done and how you weave that into your fiction.Emily: I have to say up front, I have the benefit of being born and raised in Canterbury, which has a fantastic cathedral. It's a Roman-founded medieval city. It's got walls, it's got a river going through it, a cathedral in the middle.

I then went to York and did both of my degrees, which is a Roman-based, medieval, walled, river going through it, minster in the middle. Now I've lived near Bath for the last five years, which, again, is Roman.

I have a type in terms of where I like to live, and being British does help. I know that sounds very flippant. I've got lots and lots of American friends, lots of Australian friends who are authors, who are very envious of my ability to just hop on a train and be in the place that I want to write about.

In a very dull way, and I think this might give hope to more of our international listeners, so much is digitized now. Although I do go to somewhere and kind of absorb the atmosphere, most of what I do is digital records trawling when I'm looking for something in particular.

It is not nearly as exciting as saying, “Well, I'm just going to have to go to the British Library for a week. Oh no,” but actually it is a lot more productive. It means I can usually check things within an hour or two, rather than waiting for a week in my calendar where I can head off to London.

Joanna: You write historical fiction. I mean—

How much are you doing research before writing?Emily: This is going to sound terrible, and I want everyone to take this with a huge grain of salt, now, not very much because I'm like 70, 80, 90 books in.

When you're writing in the same time period over and over and over and over again, when you've already studied history at University for four years, when you absorb yourself in that time period through my casual reading. I'm the sort of person that relaxes by reading academic texts or popular history.

I do find that I don't end up needing to do a huge amount of research now. Now, 10 years ago, very different story. There was a lot of, to be honest, starting in Wikipedia. I know there's going to be a lot of people flinching at that. It is not what it was 20 years ago.

Actually, the references and the citations at the bottom are where you want to go. Ignore most of the actual article. If you find something that you want to know a lot about, there will be a list of sources, primary sources, secondary sources, at the bottom, go there.

Then befriend your local librarian. If you're close to a university, befriend those librarians because they have resources beyond what I could have imagined. For example, at Bristol University Library I got to handle primary sources. It was just amazing. So I don't know if that answers your question.

Joanna: I think it does. Just that walking into a library, I wrote quite a lot in the London Library. I call it the serendipity of the stacks, when you actually are in a physical library, as opposed to digitally, because you stumble across things that you may never have found otherwise.

I also think now, just in terms of online research, I've been using Perplexity a lot. So it's perplexity.ai, and it's what a lot of researchers now use instead of Google and other sources because it uses the ChatGPT, the best one. Then it also does citations. So it's really, really good.

There's a research tip for everyone. Try Perplexity.aiIt does have a free tier. So that's actually what I've been using now. I use that for lots of things.

Emily: As you well know, Joanna, there is a wide spread of people's comfort with AI in general. I think hearing about something that cites where the information is coming from, I think is going to put a lot of fears to rest for people who want to use that sort of tool. That would always worry me, that I would be using something that I would be not knowing where it came from.

Joanna: Yes, it's like Google powered by a lot of AI, so you can ask a lot more nuanced questions. I encourage people to give it a try. It's more like Google than anything else, basically. It's not a generative tool where you use it in any other way.

Let's get into your latest book. So I think we say here, we say Regina, right, but Americans say Regeena.

Emily: Regina. Regeena. I say both. Either is fine. I don't get worried about it.

Joanna: Okay, but the word means queen, and the subtitle is “The Queens Who Could Have Been,” which considers what queens England would have had if firstborn daughters, not firstborn sons, had inherited the throne.

This is nonfiction. Why write this book?Emily: I've always wanted to write nonfiction. It was one of the things when I realized that actually I was in a place where I could write full time that I wanted to add to my bow. Mostly because I am that person who corners someone at a party and is like, “But honestly, Henry II, so underrated, and here's 14 reasons why.”

I'm that person that wants to kind of dive into these stories and tell them. There's so much of history that we don't know, or isn't popular, or isn't taught. You can't teach everything in a school curriculum. There simply isn't time.

So I realized quite quickly on going full time that my nonfiction niche is that untold stories through history. I find the British Monarchy fascinating. It's almost fantasy. You have this chosen one, the idea that for someone, a child, their life is mapped out for them as the heir to the throne.

When Elizabeth II died, and Charles immediately came to the throne, I kept watching Princess Anne on screen, on the TV, being involved in all of these memorials and celebrations of her mother's life.

I thought, gosh, her life didn't have that blueprint, that purpose, that direction, but she has still grown up with all of the same restrictions. I started to wonder, what sort of women would we have had on the throne if we didn't have Richard III or Henry VIII, if we had women inheriting and not men?

All these women's stories that I don't know, and I'm a public historian who's done four years of university and has continued keeping history as part of my life. It was challenging, I will be honest, trying to research and understand who these women were, because for many of them, we don't have anything.

In the early chapters, I have to say to the reader, I don't have birth dates, death dates, marriage dates. I don't really have any evidence of what they did, where they went, or who they spoke to. There is enough sprinkled through the records that we might not expect. We'll see lists of Christmas gifts or bills for jewelry.

I think one of the challenges when I came to writing the book itself was making the decision, if there isn't enough information about the woman herself, but we know loads about the men in her life, how do we tell that story?

A story about a woman, but unfortunately, through the eyes of the men who knew her. It's been completely different to fiction. With fiction, I can get away with quite a lot, even within historical romance, but writing nonfiction has been completely different.

Joanna: Yes, very different process. I imagine that your fiction abilities helped because you've written romances with female perspectives for so long around different historical periods.

You have put your mind in the mind of a woman of the period.So I would expect that you are able to sort of cast your mind into this, and that you had a lot of knowledge about the time period. You just seem very well placed to write this.

Emily: Oh, well, thank you. It's very kind of you, Joanna. I think one of the joys about it is that I believe very much—you know, I don't have a PhD. I'm a public historian, I'm not an academic historian.

I'm not undergoing fresh new research. I'm finding the tales that academics have already found, but have stayed within a very niche, small subset of academics. I'm kind of bringing those out for people to hear about.

There is an opportunity in the book to say, well, I don't actually know, but based on context, based on my research, based on what people think, this is what could have been. That's the joy of this speculative element. I'm quite open. I end each section by saying, okay, so now we know this factual information about this princess, let's speculate. What do we think she would have been like as a queen?

Having that openness in the book of like, well, we don't know everything. It's okay not to look perfect or have all the answers. It's okay to say we don't know these things, so let's guess. There's a joy in that for me as an author, and I'm hoping that readers will find that as well.

Joanna: Yes, and in that way, it being speculative, and you're publishing this with a traditional publisher, The History Press. So it does seem like a slightly odd book, given that, as you say, you're essentially proposing what could have happened.

How did that deal with traditional publishing come about?Especially as, I don't know, some of the views of romance authors might prevent a serious press from thinking of you that way.

Emily: So I have a word for the year every year to inspire myself and direct myself and build some momentum. The year that I sold this book on proposal, 2022, the word of the year was diversification.

Now I know, Joanna, that you may have heard of this! Regular listeners may be going, hmm, I sense some deja vu here. I think it was really important, and I knew that adding traditional publishing to my strings was important.

I've self-published. I've worked with independent presses. I'd offered editing services. I thought nonfiction and trad go very well together, and this might be the right time to pursue it.

I pitched a completely different nonfiction book idea to agents. I was really fortunate to secure a wonderful agent at a very prestigious agency in London. In our first meeting, which I was very excited about over Zoom, she said, “I absolutely love your vision. This book will not be done in time. We've got to can your idea.”

So, for context, my idea was to do a history of coronations, of English and British coronations, in the lead up to Charles. I thought, we've got nine months, how long could it possibly take? As a self-published person, who if I decide to put up a manuscript, it's up within three days maximum.

I knew traditional publishing timelines were long, but I had no idea how long. So she said, “Look, I really believe in you as an author. What other ideas do you have?” The story for Regina was one of those.

So it came about in a bit of a backwards way. My agent was very good at explaining, look, because it's 80% history, 20% speculative, there are going to be presses and imprints that don't want to touch this.

Ironically, there's an imprint at Penguin who absolutely loved the idea, but said they'll never get this through sales. The editorial team loved it, but they were like, we know that sales won't touch this because it's not pure history, and that is what we're meant to do.

Thankfully, so far, I'm touching all the wood, the fact that I still write and proudly write and publish romance has never come up as a problem. I'm sure there may have been some snootiness behind the scenes of imprints who didn't offer on Regina, but it's their loss. Publishing is indebted to romance, not just because it is one of the most popular genres that people read.

Joanna: It pays the bills.

Emily: It's the most popular genre to pay everyone.

I read once, 80% of publishing is earning their money from romance. So I mean, I think romance is fantastic, and that is a hill I will very much die on. I never hid that I wrote romance. I was very open about the pen name that I use for romance, and I never hid that I was going to continue writing it. I shared all the publication dates and all the commitments with my other publishers, Dragonblade, Harlequin, and HarperCollins.

I was very careful to remove any mention of exclusivity, of first refusal. I wanted to keep that freedom for myself.

Joanna: Right. So it ended up being a one book deal, did it?

Emily: It ended up being a one book deal, as per my request, because I don't want to be tied into something that I haven't tested myself. That can sound very flippant, and I'm sure if someone had offered me a five book nonfiction deal for millions of pounds, we would have had a conversation.

For me, my autonomy as a creative is what enables me to pay the bills and love doing what I'm doing. I can't imagine anything worse than trying to write a book that I don't believe in or I'm not excited about.

Readers are not stupid. They're going to tell very quickly that this is something that has been churned out to fulfill a contract. You see that in the music industry. People have three great albums and then a fourth terrible one.

Everyone goes, well, this feels like it's been rushed out, and it's because they've got a four album contract, and they're desperate to get out of it. So they just put out whatever they have. I never wanted to feel like I was put in the position where I was desperate to get out of a contract.

Joanna: Then, obviously, you mentioned the speed of things. You said 2022, it's now towards the end of 2024 as we are recording this. So if people listening are like, I really want a traditional deal, I currently have a book on submission.

What are the pros and cons that you feel about the whole [traditional publishing] situation?Emily: I think we have to differentiate fiction from nonfiction because as a general rule—and we are talking generalizations here, there will always be someone who does thing a bit different—but as a general rule, fiction in the traditional world, you write the book completely, and then you try to sell it.

So the sales process can be a bit shorter because they know exactly what they're buying into. The editorial process can be shorter because it's a refinement of an existing book.

For nonfiction, you sell on proposal. So you write almost kind of a business case for the book. What's the market? What's the audience? Why should you be writing it? What do you bring to the table? An outline of the chapters in the book. Then a sample chapter, maybe two or three.

Then when you sell it, you then have to go away and write it. So that adds a huge element to the timeline because that could take you six months. It could take you a year.

I've seen some people who sign a nonfiction contract, and then five years later the book comes out because it took them two and a half years to write.

So I think a big con for tradition publishing in general, is if you need to see the fruit of your labor and you need to start earning money quickly, trad is maybe not for you, at least for now. There's nothing stopping you coming to it later.

I think a big positive for me is that it gives me access to spaces that I haven't had access to before as an independent. Part of that is snobbery. I had a feature published in The Daily Mirror as of recording a few days ago. They would never have even considered that if I wasn't attached to a traditional publishing house.

Unfortunately, that is just the truth. I don't like it, but that is the truth. They wouldn't have considered it. I will be in bricks and mortar all over the country. None of my romance books are in bricks and mortar across the country.

So it's those little things where you have to weigh up what you want to get out of it, which sounds very mercenary. I say to my publishers all the time —

I am an artist. I will spend forever crafting the perfect book, but once it's done, it's a product, and I want to sell it and make both of us lots of money.I'm not ashamed about that. There is a time for art and beauty and craft, and then there is a time to say, but can I pay my mortgage if I sell this book?

Joanna: No, that's exactly right. I do think the definition of success, what am I actually looking to achieve? Like you said, you're accessing a different audience. That's how I feel as well. It's just another group of people you might never reach as an indie.

I think it also gives you opportunities. Well, like you mentioned the media thing, but also just different things come up. I mean, you may end up now being a speaker at history conferences or something because you have a nonfiction book in that area.

Emily: Absolutely. This makes me sound far more exciting and dramatic than it is, but I'm filming some TV next week for a subscription online service. It's not going to be on Channel Four Documentary. It's a short. It's half an hour with myself and two other historians discussing my book.

No one would have me on TV for half an hour to discuss a historical romance, sadly. Long may that become suddenly realized, but it just wouldn't happen. With nonfiction, with traditional, that is a possibility now.

That's really exciting because, as you say, I'm going to access different readers, and there's absolutely nothing to prevent those new readers from going to my back catalog and reading historical romance. I'm also bringing a lot of historical romance with me to read the nonfiction.

Joanna: Yes, well, let's talk about that then because what may stop them is that the book is coming out under another name. So you're Emily Murdoch Perkins for the nonfiction. I went on the Amazon page, and of course, this is your only book.

Someone may come along and go, “Oh, she's only written one book,” and not having a clue. So, first of all, did you choose that? Secondly—

Were you able to list your other pen-name and things in the back?Emily: In a previous life, a long time ago now it feels like, I was the Chief Brand Officer for a health tech company, and before that, I was an associate director for a PR company. So branding is something that I'm very comfortable in.

I really wanted to make it clear to readers that they were getting a different kind of book. It's different content, but it's also a different tone. It's very much still me, but it is different. So that was a decision that I suggested, and I actually fought for with my agent and my publishers.

From my perspective, the pros are that it really helps with separation in the writing process, especially. It helps my positioning as I'm sitting at the keyboard because I write in a slightly different tone, as I say. It also does help my agent and my editor and my publisher sales teams.

As we've already discussed, not everyone reads romance, so a lot of people have unpleasant views about it. What they didn't want, and what I didn't want, was for that new audience to be put off by the idea that she only writes smut, as I've had said to my face.

Joanna: Not that there's anything wrong with that, by the way.

Emily: I mean, I love a bit of smut. I read it, I write it. There's absolutely no problem with it, but it is unpleasant to have it thrown in your face as if it's the worst thing you could do.

Of course, a con is that you are trying to manage two pen names. Now, I've taken the decision to be very open about both of my pen names. My newsletter list, I think it's about 10,000 people now, all my socials, my website, I'm openly saying, “I'm writing this here, and I'm writing this here. You will enjoy both.”

I've kept my social media the same. So I'm piggybacking off the work and investment of the last 11 years on social and on the website.

Amazon is the difference because the algorithms, as we all know, are constantly shifting and nonsensical at times. I wanted to make it easy for Amazon to distill. Actually, my also-boughts and my comparative titles for nonfiction are different, and so I have taken a slightly different strategy.

To be quite honest, it would be a challenge to maintain two sets of social media for two pen names. I don't have the capacity to do it. Some people do, and that's amazing. I don't, and I'd rather do some things well than try to do everything poorly.

Joanna: Yes, I totally agree with you. I very much value having two names, as J.F. Penn writing my fiction, and also some nonfiction. I feel like mentally, as you say —

You become a different person with a different name, which really helps positioning.Also, I agree with you on the branding and the marketing. I think it helps in a lot of ways. I do have different social media, but again, it's not like I hide it. I mean, similar to you, the names are still recognizable. So I think that's fine, but certainly people should know.

I think your nonfiction book is a very different audience, potentially, to your romance.

My audience is also very different. If you were writing, I don't know, maybe you wrote a historical thriller, I don't think you would need another name, right?

Emily: No, and this is the thing, I've got a more pure historical fiction book with my agent right now. So if anyone's listening and you are an editor at any publishing house, please do get in touch.

I don't see a reason to change that. It's historical. It's fiction. It fits very neatly under the Emily E K Murdoch, Emily Murdoch branding.

With nonfiction, because it is that whole category separate, I just thought it was better to have a relatively clean break. Again, as you say, I'm not hiding it. It's still my name. It's just a slightly different configuration of my name.

Joanna: Yes, absolutely. So then what was also interesting is you have a blurb from Julia Quinn of Bridgerton fame, and everyone's like, oooh! It's saying, “A fantastic, feminist dance through history.” I was looking at this going, oooh, Julia!

I'm sure Julia gets a ton of people asking her to blurb. Many authors want a big name author on their cover. Many people listening will be like—

How do you get a blurb from a famous person?Emily: Isn't it absolutely wild. I couldn't believe it when the email came through. Honestly, I wonder if Julia does get a ton of people asking her to blurb.

Joanna: Oh, because she's ‘too' famous.

Emily: She's too famous. So about five months ago, I read an interview with Cher, the singer, who we absolutely love. She agreed to cameo in an animated film a few years ago, and everyone was astonished that Cher would do this.

She was asked about it, and she said, and I'm quoting exactly here, “I've been famous for a million years, and no one has ever asked me to do a voiceover.” She was so famous that no one ever asked.

I just emailed. I went to her website, and it had her agent's email for publicity requests. I just sent him the exact same email that I'd sent a few others, and I'll outline that as best I can remember.

So it was a one line about what my book was about. I said that I would love to send the PDF copy of the book, and if, big if, if they were happy to blurb it, I would need those comments by this date, but if they didn't want to, it's absolutely fine, no pressure at all. That was literally it.

I think that sometimes people are quite literal with their blurb requests. I would imagine that if people are asking Julia Quinn of Bridgerton fame, it's historical romance authors.

I could imagine that she might be inundated with them, and then how do you pick one? If you say one yes to one of them, do you feel obliged to say yes to everyone?

I think because my request was a little different, because it was nonfiction, not essentially her category, I think it stood out. So I would say, if you're out there and thinking, oh gosh, I would love to have a famous name attached to my book, I would see what names are adjacent to you and maybe try them.

Joanna: I think that's great. I also think that Julia Quinn, presumably, does a lot of research. She may be reading your book for research, and could have gone, “Oh, that's a good idea. That's a good idea.”

Emily: I did have a moment of panic because, of course, I write about the regency era because they have princesses,. I thought, oh my gosh, did she read that and go, “I wouldn't have done that.”

Joanna: Well, I just think we have to remember that famous authors are just like us, they just got famous. Julia, I presume, loves reading history. She was probably like, oh, yes, this is right up my alley. Therefore that was a good fit, and I think this is the most important thing.

I get pitched every single day, multiple times, and most of them are completely inappropriate pitches. I mean, you pitched me and it was completely appropriate.

That's the thing, when you're the person on the other end, whether this is appropriate or not. So the job of the person pitching really should be—

Am I pitching the right person with the right project?Emily: Do your research. In today's modern age, when people are sharing/oversharing, there's almost no excuse not to do your research. Most people, even if they're quite private personally, they ensure that their professional brand is quite clear.

For example, I really wanted to ask Alison Weir to blurb Regina. I absolutely love Alison. I actually met her at the very beginning of my author journey. She will not remember, but she was such an inspiration. She is such an inspiration because she writes nonfiction and she writes historical fiction.

I went to her website, and there was a little note on her contact page saying, “I'm inundated. I'm not accepting any more blurbs,” and so I didn't send an email.

Now, someone might say, “Oh, well, you could have just tried.” No, I don't want to annoy someone who has been really clear about their boundary, their expectations, their ability right now. Actually, I might ask her to blurb a book in the future when she does have the capacity.

If I had gone against her wishes and emailed her anyway, I can pretty much guarantee you my email would be blocked and it would be ignored the next time I asked. So there's a way to research, and it's not difficult. It's all online.

Joanna: Yes. In fact, on my contact page, it says, “I do not accept guest post submissions,” and every day I get two or three guest post submissions.

Emily: I'm cringing.

Joanna: I'm like, seriously. I just delete it. I don't reply anymore. So I think you're right.

Also, just again, Julia Quinn is a normal person, like we're normal people, and people have lives going on. It's not all about you. It's that they have their life.

Be accepting when people either don't reply or you just get a no.It just might be the wrong time. So I really love that.

Emily: Sometimes you get a yes that becomes a no. So I also asked the authors of Lady Jane to blurb, who wrote the amazing book which the TV series was made of. They said, absolutely, we'd love to do that. Then the show got canceled, and you know what, they had other more important things to do.

I just sent a note being like, you know what, focus on yourselves, focus on what's next. We are all people, as you say. People have a lot going on, and life always comes first.

Joanna: Yes, absolutely. I did want to ask you about marketing because obviously you've spent like a decade or so marketing romance on Amazon, presumably, mainly, and that is completely different to what you're now doing. So tell us—

How are you marketing things differently for nonfiction? Also, what's the split between you and the publisher?Emily: I knew early on that I would be spread way too thin if I tried to manage completely different strategies and completely different tactics for all the things that I want to continue doing for historical romance.

I knew that years ago. I knew that when I started thinking I would like to do more things, I would like to diversify. So I have been very conscious in making myself the brand. Emily is the brand.

So whether I'm writing historical romance as Emily E K Murdoch or historical nonfiction as Emily Murdoch Perkins, I am passionate, I'm curious. I love history. I love unusual facts. I love sharing photos of churches or old buildings. I love sharing photos of the food I'm cooking.

Emily loves cheese, long country walks, no matter what she's writing. So that has been a really crucial foundation that I put in place quite a few years ago, so that when this happened, I had a foundation that I could kind of stand on without trying to juggle about a bazillion things.

Having said that, having a traditional publisher means I now have Graham, who's fantastic. Thank you, Graham. He is the PR and promotions and marketing manager at The History Press.

I get an email from him at least twice a week with ideas of pitches that he's done, or I'm speaking to this person, I'm speaking to that person. As an indie, I pitched broadsheets and I pitched newspapers, I got absolutely nowhere.

That was someone who's, at the time, full time job was pitching for clients to broadsheets and newspapers, and I got loads of coverage for them.

So things are different now, and as I said, I had a feature published for The Daily Mirror. It's a UK national newspaper with something like 800,000 copies printed every day. 32 million adults individually visit the website every month, and they paid me to write it.

There are higher profile opportunities with trad, but that is based on that foundational brand of Emily, the passionate historian who loves saying, “Did you know?” That enables me to then leverage the opportunities that the publishers are working to bring to me. Does that make sense?

Joanna: Did you know? Did you know that I almost started another podcast called, “Did You Know?”

Emily: Joanna, should we do it together?!

Joanna: Oh, don't say that because that literally went into my head. We'll talk about this offline and see what the listeners think.

It's so great you have Graham. I think that's really interesting. I think a lot of authors who get traditional publishing deals don't seem to get so much active PR.

I guess sometimes they do get it, but it's only in a short period around launch, and then that person obviously moves onto another author. As we speak, you're in that launch period, aren't you? That kind of launch period?

Emily: So much we can unpack here. When I was speaking to different imprints and different publishers about Regina, before we'd sold it, it was really important to me, not that I got a ton of money in advance because I didn't, but actually how important I was going to be valued by the publishers.

I am moving into a new category, nonfiction. I don't have any experience in nonfiction. I don't have pure nonfiction readers that I can bring to the table.

So I knew that if I was essentially a midlist author for that imprint, someone who, sure, we'll publish the book, but we're not going to make a song and dance out about it. We're not going to push you forward for PR and promotions. We're not going to do a big marketing campaign. I knew that book would not succeed.

I needed a partnership with the publisher. I chose The History Press because they are smaller. They are independent. They print here in the UK.They said to me, you are going to be one of our most important titles for autumn/winter, and we are going to put a lot behind it. So that gave me a lot of confidence, and I think a lot of openness between us.

I had a call with my commissioning editor yesterday, and most of the call was, right, what do I want The History Press to be doing? What does The History Press want me to be doing?

We can be quite open about that because we said way at the beginning that we are going to really push this, but it requires a lot of input from both sides.

Joanna: Yes, I think that's great in thinking of a partnership. Again, you're very experienced. You've been doing this a while, and you have different expectations than someone who maybe it's their first book, and they don't really know the business of things.

Like you said, your aim is to make everyone more money.

We want to make money, but also the point is for a publisher to look at you and see money. They're a business, and that's what they want.I think that's a real mindset shift that authors who are also business people have, and authors who potentially are not, don't have. So just on the future of that—

Do you see yourself writing more of these historical nonfiction books? Or is this more of an experiment?

Emily: This is an experiment that is going so well, so far that my second nonfiction book proposal is currently being shopped by my agent. I can't say any more than that because discussions are ongoing, insert business talk here.

It's something that I've enjoyed and that is important to me. I spend all day writing, creating, networking, promoting. This is my job. I spend more time here than with my significant other. If I'm not going to enjoy it, I don't really want to do it again.

Also, the response from readers has been so positive. The pre-order numbers look very positive. So it's definitely something that I would like to do again.

I am able because I write full time, and I'm conscious that a lot of people aren't at that stage, or don't want to be at that stage. That's not something they're aiming for. I think it's also important to stay I am child-free by choice, and I have no caring responsibilities, and that is on purpose.

I have a lot of capacity, but I don't want to spend that capacity on something I don't enjoy. I've really loved exploring a different type of craft, a different type of audience, a different type of marketing, a different type of research.

I have been challenged, not all of it has been wonderful, but it's something that I could see myself doing alongside my fiction for a really long time.

Joanna: That's great. We're almost out of time, but I did just want to ask about something you've mentioned several times, diversification. Obviously, your business is actually more than just books.

Tell us about your multiple streams of income.Emily: Well, I very much followed the advice of someone called Joanna Penn, who really understands the author mindset. So I have multiple streams of income. Some of them are very big, and some of them are very small that I hope to grow, or actually that can just tick over and be passive in their own way.

I'm wide with half of my self-published books. I'm in KU for the other half. I teach my own courses.

I have a course called “You Can Write More Words” which is designed specifically to help people either write more words in the same amount of time or compress how much time you need to write the same number of words. I'm more than happy to offer a 75% off coupon for your listeners.

I teach through other organizations. So I have three classes a year come out through the Regency Academy. I teach a masterclass once a year or so. So I'm doing one this November with The History Quill.

I have Patreon, where I'm writing a Patreon-exclusive historical romance, which is one chapter a week. I offer developmental editing, line editing, I proofread. It's a lot, but it's not all of these things all of the time. I think that's really important.

Some things are set and forget. Some books I wrote a decade ago. Some teaching, I set up the course, and then it's self-service. I only take on multiple streams of income that I enjoy, which now I say that aloud, has also been a theme of this chat.

If I don't enjoy it, chances are that I won't do it well. I only want to be putting out work into the world, and being a good person to work with, someone that people want to work with, and creating brilliant books that people love to read and reread. That's really, really important to me.

Joanna: Fantastic.

You did offer a coupon for your course. Does that have a code?Emily: It has a code. I will make the code JOANNA, all caps. Here's the course again.

Joanna: Great. We'll put that in the show notes because I'm sure some people will be interested in that.

Where can people find you, and your books, and everything you do online?Emily: Please do read Regina. I would love for people to read and enjoy it. You can get it anywhere that books are sold. You can find me at @EmilyEKMurdoch. That's Murdoch ending with C-H. That's all the socials, and it's also my website, EmilyEKMurdoch.com.

If you want to get in touch with me, any editing support, my courses, any collaborations, I love hearing from other authors and other creatives. That's Emily@EmilyEKMurdoch.com.

Joanna: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Emily. That was great.

Emily: My absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Takeaways* Emily always wanted to be a writer from a young age. * She writes 10,000 words a day, enabling rapid releases. * Editing is a challenging but necessary part of the writing process. * Research is crucial for writing historical fiction. * Emily's non-fiction book explores untold stories of women in history. * Traditional publishing has its challenges, especially for non-fiction. * Building a brand as an author is essential for success. * Networking can open doors to new opportunities. * Diversification in writing can lead to multiple income streams. * Enjoying the writing process is key to long-term success.

The post Writing Historical Fiction And Non-Fiction With Emily E K Murdoch first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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In this video, I talk about why I'm launching Blood Vintage on Kickstarter, why the platform provides fantastic opportunities for backers, and helps authors make beautiful books. You can watch below or here on YouTube.

why am i launching blood vintage on youtube? Hello everyone. I'm author J.F. Penn, and today I'm talking about —

What is Kickstarter and why am I launching my latest novel Blood Vintage on the platform? If you've never heard of Kickstarter or never used it before, it's a crowdfunding platform where you can support creators to bring their projects to life.

It's a different way of shopping for interesting and unusual books and other products like a pre-order for special editions like this one.

You can support creators you already love, or find books from new creators you might never have heard of before.

Kickstarter has become an important part of the business of being an author these days. It enables creators to make beautiful books and limited editions, and also to make more money more quickly and retain a higher percentage of royalties rather than wait months or even years to get paid. This means we can keep writing the books you enjoy!

There are all kinds of different projects on the platform, from art and design to films and games and music, and of course there are authors creating beautiful books. You can find us in the publishing category at Kickstarter.com.

Campaigns usually run for a few weeks, and my campaign for Blood Vintage runs from 1st to 15th of October, 2024.

You can check out what's available and back at the level you want. You enter your credit card number at this stage, but you won't be charged until the end of the campaign and only if the creator makes their targets.

You can also get very special editions like the silver foil and sprayed edges of my latest hardback, Blood Vintage.

You can also get bonus content, merchandise, great value bundles, digital specials, print, exclusives, courses, early access, and so much more sometimes months before books are available on the platforms like Amazon.

You also get to connect with the author through updates and messages.

Once the campaign is over and fully funded, the creator will fulfill your order. This might be a special print edition like this or an ebook, audiobook, a bundle, a course, whatever rewards you pledged for.

The money is used to pay the printer for the books. Obviously with special editions that have foil and sprayed edges and a ribbon, you need to pay the printer more than you would do for something digital like an ebook.

But you might also pay the other creatives involved, like editors, cover designers, book designers, illustrators, audiobook narrators, and other creative people.

Why am I using Kickstarter for my latest novel Blood Vintage instead of just launching in the usual way on the usual platforms?Well, in the same way that delicious wine is packaged inside a beautiful bottle with a lovely label, sometimes even in a box, I wanted to do my story justice by making a special first edition hardback that is only available for a short time.

This edition has silver foil on the dust jacket and also the interior hardback cover. It has custom wine inspired end papers, as well as the sprayed edges and a ribbon. I'll also be signing a limited number.

There are no other formats of the book available at the moment as Blood Vintage is out on submission, so this special hardback edition is the only version available as a limited release.

You can also get bundle deals of my other stories if you'd like to read more thrillers, horror crime or dark fantasy.

If you're a writer, you can join me for a live webinar on Discovery Writing as I don't plot my novels in advance, and I'll tell you all about how I do that. And there are also a limited number of consulting slots available.

You can find out more at JFPenn.com/bloodvintage, and the Kickstarter runs from 1st to 15th of October, 2024.

Even if Blood Vintage is not for you, go check out the other wonderful Publishing campaigns on kickstarter.com because you can get some brilliant books and other products and support creators directly.

If you have any questions or comments, please leave them below. Thanks for listening, and I hope to see you inside my campaign at JFPenn.com/bloodvintage.

J.F. Penn with Blood VintageThe post Why Am I Launching Blood Vintage On Kickstarter? first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How can you be successful at connecting with readers and selling books at live, in-person events? What are some practical tips as well as mindset shifts that can help you make the most of the opportunities? Mark Leslie Lefebvre shares his experience.

In the intro, Beventi for author events, Reader survey results [Written Word Media]; “How do I market myself without feeling gross about it?” [Author Stack]; 12 Concepts for Authors to Make $8333/Month; Results of AI training survey [Draft2Digital]; LionsGate partnering with RunWayML; Networking workshop [LSF]; Blood Vintage.

This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Mark Leslie LeFebvre is the author of horror and paranormal fiction, as well as nonfiction books for authors. He's also an editor, professional speaker, and the Director of Business Development at Draft2Digital. His latest book is A Book in Hand: Strategies for Optimizing Print Book Sales via Signings and Other In Person Events.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• What does “going wide” really mean?
• Benefits of in-person signings and events
• Always connect. The power of creating personal relationships with readers
• The different types of in-person events
• Using props to attract the right readers to your booth
• How to grow your email list and audience from in-person events
• The logistics of in-person events — payment systems and inventory
• Managing your energy when planning for and attending events
• Staying relaxed about changing technology and using it to your advantage

You can find Mark at MarkLeslie.ca.

Transcript of Interview with Mark Leslie LeFebvreJoanna: Mark Leslie LeFebvre is the author of horror and paranormal fiction, as well as nonfiction books for authors. He's also an editor, professional speaker, and the Director of Business Development at Draft2Digital.

His latest book is A Book in Hand: Strategies for Optimizing Print Book Sales via Signings and Other In Person Events. So welcome back to the show, Mark.

Mark: Always great to chat with you, Joanna.

Joanna: Oh, yes. Obviously many listeners might know you from author events or listen to your podcast, Stark Reflections. So you were last on the show in September 2021.

Mark: Has it been that long?

Joanna: Yes, it has been, which is crazy. You've been on the show lots over the years. We co-wrote The Relaxed Author together, and we're going to come back to that later. So it's been almost three years since you've been on the show—

Mark and Jo over the yearsGive us a bit of an update on your writing and publishing journey, as you've had some big milestones lately.Mark: So I've continued to write in my Canadian Werewolf series. Book seven, Only Monsters in the Building, that was released earlier this year, 2024. I've got book eight planned for mid-2025.

So that's been fun because in 2021, I think, I had only had two or three books in that series. So I've continued to chug away at that. Only one book a year, just sort of standard speed.

I did release a co-authored book with D.F. Hart, Accounting for Authors, which is important because she's an MBA. That was a great co-authoring experience because she's really smart and knows everything about that. I took the role of the author who knows nothing about finances. That is kind of close to the truth, so it was an easy role to fill.

Then also, with D.F. Hart and Erin Wright and Susie O'Connell and Bradley Charbonneau—

We registered and founded a company, Wide for the Win. It is like a long, slow build for this company. All of us are working collaboratively together, trying to leverage that movement into something that could help more authors in different ways. So that's like this long, slow thing where the company's not really earning money yet, it's breaking even, but we have these plans.

I mean, for example, sales of my book Wide for the Win, a portion of the sales goes and funds into the company, which is kind of good.

So other things I've been up to is I've written two movie trivia books. This is drawn upon my love of 80s films and nostalgia. So I had The Canadian Mounted, which is a trivia guide to planes, trains and automobiles, because it's a reference to a book that one of the characters is reading in it.

That took off beyond my wildest dreams. I thought 15-20 people in the world would buy it, and I wrote it completely as a passion project, and it just keeps shooting. It's been out for a few years now, and every Thanksgiving season through Christmas, it sells like gangbusters. Then I did a trivia book of Die Hard called Yippee Ki-Yay, you know the rest. So that came out.

Then this December, I'm working on a book, which is Merry Christmas! which is a line cousin Eddie uses in Christmas Vacation. Again, that's going to be like the 35th anniversary of the release of that movie. So that's been a weird tangent.

Of course, I then attended Western Colorado University's Masters of Creative Writing Program taught by our mutual friend Kevin J. Anderson. I got my specialisation in publishing. Why not get a piece of paper to go with the 35 years of experience?

Then three days after I got my degree, Liz and I flew from Colorado, where I was on campus, to New York City. We got married there on the 10th anniversary of our first date.

That, ironically, was inspired not only by the fact that that's our city, we love New York City so much. We've been there about eight times in a six-year period. It was inspired by a co-authored book in my Canadian Werewolf series called Lover's Moon, which is a romantic comedy tale.

There's a scene that takes place in Central Park on the Bow Bridge, the bridge where people tend to propose. After we finished writing that, I turned to Liz, and I said, “You know, we could just elope and go to New York and get married in Central Park.” So we did that, which is fun.

Then, of course, I've got A Book in Hand coming out. So that's the Reader's Digest version. Could you imagine if I did the long version?

Joanna: Can we also say that you work at Draft2Digital. So you also have a day job!Mark: Yes. Well, I mean, that's only 20 hours a week.

Joanna: It's a part time day job, but still. Just coming back on the Wide for the Win, because just for people who might not know, basically the idea is that you're not exclusive to Amazon.

It's interesting, when I say wide now, I actually mean Kickstarter and Shopify stores. Like it used to just mean Kobo Writing Life and Apple and Google and stuff like that.

Now publishing wide is much, much bigger than just the other e-retailers isn't it?Mark: Yes, and my version of wide has always been that. I've always thought, okay, the other retailers are just the beginning. Direct sales, Kickstarters, Patreon, and all the different things you can do, there are so many other platforms, so many other ways of selling.

I really want to help authors understand the ability to extend and expand to audiences outside of the regular places. That's partly what A Book in Hand is trying to get into.

I'm focusing very specifically on physical products because I think a lot of indie authors don't. I think you and I both know the value of that physical artifact. Even though it's harder and it takes more work, there can be a long-term benefit.

So yes, wide to the other retailers is a small version of wide. My wide means every possible avenue, as a creator and as a storyteller.

Joanna: Yes, I really like that. I actually think that the shift is happening. It's great that you've set that company up with the others because I feel like maybe we're in year one or two of that being the movement.

I mean the movement in the first 15 years, really since you and I met, before 2010, was very much focused on the Amazon model first. Even though there were other retailers, obviously, you were at Kobo back then when we met.

Now I feel like there's a real shift, and people are opening up to that. So I think starting the company now, whatever you're planning to do, really is the right time because people are realizing they need to do all this stuff.

Not just for the money, but also for the creative expression, and the experience, and the other possibilities of being out there.Mark: For sure. Again, education and making sure people are getting good information was the key thing that we all cared about. Not just sharing the passion for doing all the things you can do, multiple streams of income and all those things, but also helping steer people in the right direction.

There's a lot of misinformation out there, and we wanted to get a little bit better at formulizing trying to help authors.

Joanna: Great. Well, we'll look forward to that. So let's get into the book. So it is mainly about in-person signings and in-person events. I wanted to talk to you about this because I resist this completely.

I have, like you know, the only signed books I've done are my Kickstarters so far. I really love them, but I go up, I sign all the books, and they get sent out. I have never done a book signing.

I don't do fairs or conventions or any of that. If I go speak somewhere, I don't take books with me. So people have to bring their own copy and I'll sign them, which, you know, I've done for people. Basically, I want you to start by convincing me and some of the listeners—

Why should we do these types of in-person signings and events? What are the benefits?Mark: I'm going to first start off, Jo, with saying, I may not convince you to do the in-person events because you're already leveraging the principles behind A Book in Hand by doing what you do.

You go to BookVault, you sign the Kickstarter, and you have the benefit of that relationship with the people without having to sit there at a bookstore.

Let's go back to the concept in general. It's derived from something that you've often said, as things move and progress in this industry, doubling down on you and your authentic self is key, and that's at the basis of this.

Especially in a tech-heavy and high tech digital world, especially with AI-charged content that can surpass even those rapid release people—like that's coming, we'll probably talk about that in a bit—it's the connections that people crave.

Connections are the most fundamental reason for storytelling and for writing and books.

There's so many readers out there who want a connection with the writer.Now you, with what you've done with your magnificent Kickstarters and signing the books, it's like if I want a signed copy of Joanna's book, this is the way I get it. You've done that in a way that's very comfortable for you, and I love that. I think that's amazing, and that is still part of that mandate.

Sometimes an in-person event, when somebody connects with you—and I'm sure you've experienced this numerous times, people are fans, and they've heard you.

For example, I was talking to someone at a conference in Calgary who's a huge fan of yours, like I am, and they're so jealous of the fact that I talk to you, get to hang out with you, and stuff like that. When they meet you, it's a real experience, and not just because of what you've done for authors.

Liz, for example, she's pretty much read most of your Morgan Sierra novels and loves them. So there's this whole cool experience of “Jo's really sweet and lovely and optimistic, and yet, look at all the stuff she writes.”

Joanna: You are the same, by the way. People should read your fiction!

Mark: Same thing, and people marvel at that. It's like, really, you wrote that? I'm just like, yeah, that's why it's therapy. That's why I'm okay as a person. I get it out in my writing.

It brings the reader something well beyond just the words on a page. It gives them an experience.So you're creating a unique and dynamic experience for the reader that they may cherish. Maybe it's posing while you signed a book for them, maybe it's something else in person.

So I'll give you a couple examples. At one of the events I did a couple years ago at Frightmare In The Falls in Niagara Falls, Canada, I had somebody who had bought my hardcovers online, probably Amazon or some other store, and came in a werewolf costume to Frightmare In The Falls just to meet me and get my book signed.

Of course, I took a picture with him. I didn't sell anything to him at that event, and it cost me a lot of money to be at that event. I did make my money back and a little bit more from that event.

Me being there with somebody who loved my books so much that they show up in a costume with my books just so I can sign, that experience hopefully gave this fan something really cool that he can share with other people.

Another thing I've done, there's a brewery in Hamilton, Ontario, and one summer, eight of the ten of those weeks of the summer, I was there on Saturday. It cost me $25 to have a little booth and sell books, and I was the only book vendor there.

There was one gentleman I had handed a card, it had a coupon code for Kobo and the book cover of one of my thrillers, Evasion. So he was looking around, and he recognized my name because I'd edited a science fiction anthology by a small Canadian publisher years earlier. He's like, “Oh, I think I have one of your books.”

I gave him a card, and I said, “Here, go inside. There's free Wi Fi,” he's going to go in and have a beer, “Check it out for free.” He comes back 45 minutes later, and he goes, “Do you have that book?” I said, “Yes, well, I just gave it to you. I just gave you the ebook.”

He said, “No, no, I want the physical book. Can you sign it for me? I'm really enjoying it. I want to own it.”

Since then, this one in-person experience of just chatting and not trying to oversell someone, it's turned into a lifelong fan who buys every single one of my books and leaves reviews for them too.

That personal relationship with a reader is one of the more powerful things you can do.Joanna: Yes, it is, and I am convinced of that.

Even you and I, we've met at events over the years, and because we meet in person, I mean we talk like this sometimes, but because we meet in person, we have more of a relationship, and we've done business together.

So I think that, even if it's not just the readers.

Say you're at a convention and no reader even buys a book, you're still you can still connect with other creators who are there, and learn a lot from them, and maybe meet some of the people you're fans of, and stuff like that. So why don't you just—

What are the different types of in-person events and what kinds of authors do they suit?Because there are so many different things, aren't there?

Mark: So for example, I mean, the most common one authors often think of is a lonely author in the front of a bookstore in a mall, right, sitting at a table.

Joanna: Don't do that!

Mark: Well, I mean, there are situations where it may be okay for you to do that. Some authors it's good for, and others it's not.

So that's one, for example, that you've got specialty shops. So shops that are specialty, because I write horror, and I write scary stuff, and I have true ghost stories and things like that, specialty shops.

I was at a gem location this summer at a metaphysical fair festival, so people interested in metaphysical and paranormal and stuff like that. So that's a good fit.

There are friends of mine who write epic fantasy, and they do a lot of medieval fairs, sometimes dressed up as knights and stuff like that.

I think going to book adjacent events could be even more important.So for example, I talked about the brewery, I was the only book vendor there. So a couple things happen when you're the only book vendor there. Not everyone reads, right? Like one in four Americans have read a book since high school, I'd say maybe even fewer than one in four.

The book nerds, the book fans, really recognize when there's a book anywhere. When I see books and beer, I'm just excited about either one of them. So anytime it has anything to do with beer or books, I'm just all over it like a cheap suit.

So if you're the only book vendor there, the book people are probably going to come to you, which can be beneficial. Now, depending on the genres you write, maybe the books are not for them, but that doesn't mean that you still haven't made an impression on them.

The challenge with in person events is you can't do cost per click measures. It's so hard to do that. With online ads and stuff like that, you can kind of see how many people looked at it, how many people clicked, how many sales that translated into.

With some of these things, it's this long-term touch event. So for example, one of the events I was at, which was another brewery, I had somebody approach me who said, “Mark Leslie, I know your name,” and it goes back to a podcast I was on 10 years earlier that's no longer on the air.

It's like one of these things that I couldn't measure the fact that doing this podcast 10 years earlier was going to result in a book sale from somebody who walks by and sees my book. Had I not been there in person, she wouldn't have seen my book.

There's so many different local fairs, craft fairs, markets, pop up fairs, and, like I said, book adjacent specialty shops. Even coffee shops, breweries, and places like that. You're limited by your imagination, right?

Like when you want to go wide, think about going wide with physical books. Not necessarily just sitting and planting yourself in front of a bookstore and hope somebody takes pity on you and buys one of your books from you.

Joanna: I think you're right. I mean, of course some people want to do signings in bookstores, but as you said, actually—

The book adjacent events can be much better, as long as you can find some overlap.I was thinking, there's a lot of Christmas fairs as this goes out, I mean, towards the end of the year, land you'll be next to people who've made knitted things or have some food things and wine and stuff. So that, to me, is a kind of book adjacent event to consider.

I think one of the things that puts me off is, like you did mention there, you can't do cost per click. You can't necessarily do an ROI.

If you spend a couple of $100 to get a store, and then you spend a couple of thousand to print enough books to make the day worthwhile, like if it gets sold. Then you have to get them there, and then maybe you have to drive there. There's just all kinds of things that make me worry about it.

What are your tips for making the event successful, in terms of preparation and then also on the day?Mark: So there's a few things that can be helpful. I guess it depends on how many books you have.

I know this sounds weird and odd, but having one or two books is so much easier than having a lot of books because one of the challenges is determining what I'm going to take.

Now, I do a lot of events now. For example, this week, I did one this past Sunday, I have an event Thursday night, an outdoor event in Uptown Waterloo. Then I'm driving almost two hours to Ontario's west coast, just south of Goderich, to do an open air book festival on Saturday.

I have stock of a lot of my books. I have a room dedicated in my basement, because we live in a big enough house, that is my shipping, receiving, and stock room. It's where I have all my books laid out on shelves so I can track and I can see.

I use local printers. I use Amazon. I use Ingram. I use various ways to get these different books in stock. It is expensive, having 10 of this, and 10 of that, and 10 of the other.

Then with my traditionally published books, I order from a local bookstore. They give me a discount, and I support a local business. It goes through their register, and also a year later, I'll get like chump change royalties from the publisher on it. I make more margin on the ones I'm planning to resell anyway.

So tips for making the event successful I think are, obviously, you're going to want to share that on social media. You're going to want to put it out in your author newsletter. All the ways that you let your fans know.

Again, no, I don't necessarily know where all my fans are because I don't have those demographics from where they are, if they're local or nearby. So no matter where I go, I try to let them know, “Hey, I'm going to be here. I'm going to be in South Dakota in September, South Dakota Book Festival.”

I'm going to send it out my newsletter because maybe there's somebody in my newsletter who lives there. I've had people show up at events saying, “Hey, I got your newsletter last week that said you're going to be here, so I made a point. It was an hour drive. I came to see you.” So that's really important.

I think having merchandise props, some sort of setting part based on your brand of who you are as an author in the book or the books that you write, that can work. For example, I have Barnaby Bones. I have my skeleton.

mark leslie with barnaby bones at a live event, pic from instagram @markleslielefebvreUsually the skeleton either tells people stay away from the crazy bald man, or they come running over because that's their jam. Like skeletons, yay. Love it.

I also have a sign that I hang there, it's like a bat shaped sign that says, “Ghost stories told here.” It's a great icebreaker. People will come over and say, “Well, you tell ghost stories. Well, tell me a ghost story.”

Then I say, “Well, first of all, because this is an important thing, I'm not just going to tell you any ghost story. I want to find out what kind of ghost stories you like because I have thousands.”

One of the more important things is not necessarily selling — it's engaging.So one of the other things is props. Even having access through our good friend Damon and Bookfunnel print cards. I have cards. I have ebooks.

Some people may say, “Well, I'd rather just get the ebooks.” Well, I have the whole Canadian Werewolf series here in ebook in the little oversized postcards that I print from Vistaprint with a cover on it. I can sign with a marker on the front, there's room on the back to sign, but then there's also that special code.

So I can do one of a combination of things. I could give something away if I feel like, “Hey, check this out.” If they really like it, then maybe they'll come back and they'll buy the series wherever they buy ebooks, or they'll get them from the library.

So I can sell the ebooks that way. I can sell the audiobooks that way. I can even add them as somebody who buys the whole series. Like here, download the eBooks for free. So you can have these signed copies and then listen to the book.

So I think having physical merchandise is tricky, but very expensive, of course, and again, something that will draw the right fans to your table. If you write cat mysteries, you better have some cat stuff.

With the master's program, we just released a book called Feisty Felines and Other Fantastical Familiars. I remember having the book at a fair earlier this summer, even just before the book officially launched, Kevin said it was okay for us to put those author copies out and start getting people excited.

I mean, I had people running over when they saw the black cat on the front because you can see it from far away. They came over because there was a cat on it, and they were all over it. They were all over it and loved it. So that was a really exciting thing. So again, you never know what's going to catch someone's eye.

Joanna: It's a good point.

You've mentioned a couple of times not to be too salesy. Don't do the hard sell.I remember, it was one ThrillerFest in New York. ThrillerFest has a big book sales room, and people do signings in there. I mean, it is an event for authors, so everyone there is an author.

If you go, they can stock your books in the main thing. I remember going in there, and of course, everyone wants to buy books, but I remember going in there and this guy just came up to me, holding his book, and said, “Do you want to buy this?”

Obviously, my first reaction is, no, I don't want to buy this, but because I'm English, I'm very polite. I was like, “Oh, that looks very interesting.”

Then, of course, you've reached out a hand, Then you're holding the book, and he's done what people on the street do, you know, with little things where they give it to you, and once they've given it to you, and then you're like, oh, no, now I have to buy it. I still remember him. This is like a decade ago.

I still remember him being someone I did not want to buy his book. I don't think I did buy it in the end, but I was annoyed that he was even taking the time in my head when I wanted to be looking for books I actually wanted. So that's like an example of definitely do not do.

What are some of the other big mistakes you see newbies make with these in-person events?Mark: Well, I want to double down on what you just said to make sure that your listeners pick up on this. The difference between making one sale—like he was very forceful, and put putting a book in your hand that you were not interested in.

That was an anxious, uncomfortable moment that still lives with you. He made the worst possible—well, one of the worst possible impressions, there could have been worse things—but he made a really bad impression. It's still with you.

You'll probably never buy anything from that author because of that bad experience. So I would rather not make a sale now, but have a potential long-term relationship or long-term interactions with somebody.

I think too many authors try so hard to get the sale now, because I paid for my table, and I want to make my money back, or my flight, or whatever it cost me to get here. They're so fixated on that that they miss out on: is this the right person for the book? Is this the right reader? That should be their focus.

So we talked about overspending, with the merchandise, and by printing too much stock and stuff like that. I think —

Focusing on a legitimate and genuine connection with the right person is way more important.That includes—and you mentioned this earlier, and it's so important—talking to the other authors, talking to the other vendors, getting to know the staff wherever it is that you happen to be. You never know who might be or might know someone who's going to be your ideal reader.

So it's not always be closing, it's always be connecting. So, for example, if I was in that gentleman's shoes, and you walk by—and probably not you because you do like dark things—but I'm standing there, and somebody comes by, and says, “Oh, what do you have there?”

I'll be like, “Well, then do you like horror?” Then they're like, “No, I'm more of a romance reader.”

I'm like, “Oh, well, I don't really have anything for you. Well, I sort of have one book, but not really your cup of tea. But you know what? My friend Bella, just down there, you've got to check out her Sullivans Series. It is absolutely amazing.”

“If you like thrillers with some action and adventure, Marie Force has a fantastic series, The Fatal Series. You're going to love that.” So get to know who else is there and what they have.

If somebody comes up to you and asks for something and you don't have what they want, don't waste their time trying to sell them something and fit the square peg in the round hole.

Try to help them find what they're looking for.As a bookseller, I did this when I was managing a bookstore. People would come to my bookstore in the mall to ask non-book-related questions because they knew I would do everything I could to help them. They liked me and they trusted me, and people buy things from people they know, like, and trust.

So they would come to the mall and say, “Oh, I'm looking for a really great hardware store,” or something like that, “I figured you'd recommend something.” It has nothing to do with books, and I would help them.

Guess what? The next time they needed a book, guess who they were going to refer their friends to or come to.

Joanna: Or buy a gift. I mean, that's the other thing, isn't it? Like a lot of people are buying gifts at these things. It doesn't have to be for themselves. Then oftentimes it's like, “Oh, well, I like that guy. I'll go back and buy a gift from him,” or whatever.

Mark: They had a good experience. So imagine that person came by and they said, “I've got this book. It's this genre that you're not interested in,” and you just had a nice, short conversation, and he wasn't pushy and didn't try to force it on you.

Then you remembered, oh, that was an interesting book, and then you're talking to someone in a coffee shop later on when you're in line, and they're like, “Oh, I really like this.”

Then you're like, “Oh, there's a guy, he's just around the corner by the red pillar. Look for him. I bet you his book would be good for you.” You never know.

Again, the biggest challenge, especially with indie authors who grew up trained digitally, on ebooks and cost per click and all that, you can't measure that. That's probably the most frustrating aspect.

Joanna: You said there about thinking about the other person, and you also have to think about the kind of event. Also, not giving people too much choice. So both you and I have a lot of books, and it's expensive to print everything. Also, if I take every single one of my books, people are like, ‘oh, too much choice.'

There's all those studies, aren't there, that if you give people three different jams, for example, they're more likely to buy one than if you have 20 different jams. So you have to really think about what event it is.

I was actually just thinking then, because I am considering doing a Christmas market here in Bath, and I was like, well, which books would I take? Then I remembered, my mum has a book called A Summerfield Christmas Wedding.

Mark: Perfect.

Joanna: I'm like, well, of course, I would take my mum's book. Then I'd have maybe my thrillers and some non-fiction, just one of each or two of each. Then I have my mum's Christmas book, and maybe that would be the one that sold a ton.

Mark: Well, that's the primary display, but then somebody's like, “Oh, I love Christmas stuff, but I have a friend who loves archeological thrillers,” or whatever, because you've got so many different things now.

That's the other thing is, maybe just feature the first book in the series and then have the other ones kind of subtly off to the side, but not as visible until someone really gets into it. That's the other trick.

Joanna: Or even just the first one in each series. Then in talking to people, you can say, “Well, look, I have an email list. I can send you the details of the other books.”

I was going to ask you about this. So I'm kind of trained on very much the anti-spam thing, so I have never added someone to my email list manually. When I hear from people like yourself who do live events—

Do you keep a manual email list and add people to it live?So how do you deal with that?

Mark: I stopped doing that. I used to have a clipboard, and one of the problems with the clipboard is people write like they're doctors, like a prescription. You can't read what their name is anyway. I stopped with the manual board, and I go with a QR code that brings them right to my list.

I say, “Hey, you want this book for free? Scan here, and you get the download. You can get it on your phone with the free Bookfunnel app, and you can start reading it now if you want. Then you're on my newsletter list, and I can let you know what's going on.”

So I find that's way better because it's not forcing anyone to have to take a clipboard and write things down, and then you have to go in. Again, it's manual labor to go and enter it in.

Joanna: Just a QR code on a sheet of paper?Mark: Yes. I mean, most people have a smartphone on them, so they can quickly and instantly sign up for your newsletter right then and there and get the free book right away.

So one of the things I've done as well as, so in my Canadian Werewolf series, for example, I have a little postcard and I have a sign with a QR code on it where you can download the eBook or the audiobook, or both, through Bookfunnel on a Bookfunnel landing page.

The QR code takes you right to the Bookfunnel landing page, and again, it's not you have to opt in for my newsletter because I don't want that. I'm sorry, I pay for enough deadbeats on my newsletter who do SFA. I'm sorry. I'm pushing really hard right now on my newsletter, and I'm happy.

Joanna: You have to get rid of people.

Mark: Well, if you're not going to click things, or respond, reply, or buy things from me, what the hell are you doing there? Get the hell out. You're just dead weight, and you're costing me a lot of money.

I don't mean to be mean, but I would rather have somebody who's engaged and wants to hear from me on the newsletter, because those are my people. The other people just got a free book once, and they're just costing me money.

So again, I don't force them. Like, even when they get the free download, it's an option. I don't have it clicked by default. They have to choose to be on my newsletter because I don't want to put them on my newsletter unless they want to be on my newsletter. So I give them the option.

Joanna: That's a good tip. The other thing I wonder about is the money side. So, of course, you mentioned at some events there is a bookseller there, and it will go through them.

Do you need to have a Square or some kind of mobile payment system?Because a lot of people don't even have cash anymore?

Mark: Great question. I used to have one of the small Square Readers that tapped and connected to my phone, and it was just problematic software-wise. I ended up investing last year in one of the full size Square Readers that has the receipt printer built into it. It cost me a few hundred dollars.

The other thing I like about it is I can print a receipt for someone right there on the spot if they want one. I can also email or text all the things that they want. All my inventory is in there.

I used to, when it was a cash sale, I had a little notebook where I would say I took $10 for this book and whatever. I remember one time at one of the really busy events I was at, my sister was there helping, a lovely person, of course, but she makes me look organized.

She forgot to mark down which books I sold for cash, and so when I go to balance the next day, it was like, well, I have all this money, but I don't know what it was for.

So I even put my cash sales through the Square Reader, so I can, A, print a receipt for them. B, I used to print a second receipt for myself, throw it in the cash box, and I knew I sold that book for cash, or these books for cash.

Then in Square, I run a report the next day, and if it's just a cash sale or credit or debit or whatever it is, I can see exactly what I sold, and all of it's through the same system.

Joanna: That's really good.

Mark: So I have something I can load to ScribeCount because I'm tracking my sales in many different ways, but it's also a report that's useful for me to understand.

Then I can go back, no, I don't have my inventory properly managed where I go downstairs and look at the shelf and go, okay, I have 10 copies of this book, better order some soon because I've got so many shows coming up. Then you've got to do it in time, right?

I mean, I'm in Canada, so some of the printing is locally here with a printer. Some of it's printed with Amazon Canada, now that they print. When it's coming from Ingram in the States, crossing the border, you have to plan weeks in advance.

Joanna: I was thinking about this, so let's say Author Nation, you and I are both going to be there. It's in Las Vegas. I know they have, like in that hotel, they have a FedEx or business shipping site. I was even wondering about, I know it's Amazon, but on Amazon they have those lockers and things like that.

Do you do shipping to the points where you're flying to?Mark: I have not yet done in-person sales outside of Canada because customs fees and getting nailed for selling across the border. So I have not yet. I have shipped books to the States to put in consignment with a vendor who's there, like a bookseller.

I've dropped shipped to hotels and stuff like that. I have also shipped books or brought books to give away. I learned that from Becca Syme. It's just too much of a hassle to fill out all the paperwork.

Joanna: I was wondering, I don't know if I'm going to do this, but one could do presales of special editions, get the money now, and then ship them all to Las Vegas, and then give the people who are there those signed copies that they have pre-bought.

You're not doing the sales on-site, you're doing them beforehand.Mark: Maybe the pre-bought allows you to buy an extra bag that you check in that's filled with these books.

Joanna: No, I would just ship them to the location. I did notice that last time—

Mark: But you're paying taxes to your government, right? So if you're selling, you're paying taxes through your online system. It's already taken care of, so you don't have to worry about any of that. Which I think, Jo, that's genius. I love that.

Joanna: I mean, obviously in America, a lot of people are flying around to these things. Well, it's just something I was thinking about, I was thinking, what if I did this, how would I do it in a way that's easy enough?

I think this is the big thing, like even the Square Reader you said there, a couple of hundred dollars doesn't worry me, it's the how nervous I would be using it for the first time, or screwing it up when I had someone buying a Christmas present, or somebody who didn't really know how to do it.

I do think the pandemic has probably changed it, though. Now people know how to use QR codes, and everyone pays with a tap now, don't they?

Mark: They do, yes. The other thing too, I mean, I guess I have 20-plus years working in physical bookstores at Christmas. So I don't get stressed out by that. I mean, if I ever have a line like that again, oh my god, like Brandon Sanderson style lines, that'd be nice.

Joanna: You'll be happy. Also, people are nice. I mean, if your Reader isn't working, whatever, you sort it out. Okay, well, that's loads of my questions. Is there anything else you think we haven't covered that people need to know? I mean, obviously they can get your book, A Book in Hand, but is there anything else?

Well, let me bring something up, actually. I saw a post from an author who did Comic Con, I think, or one of these bigger conventions, and they said, “That's my last time. It's too exhausting.” So there's that energy management, as well as expensive, and it's like that “I'm done.” So that would be a question.

How do you manage your energy at these live events?How are you like, okay, I've done enough events? Or are you just your Energizer Bunny self, and just go forever?

Mark: It is so tough because I'm an omnivert, and I do get exhausted from being on, because I look at it as being on. So that is tough. That is really, really hard. You have to know yourself and understand yourself and what you need.

You can't overextend yourself. That's so important. Whether it's trying to write books too fast, or whether it's trying to do in-person events when that's not your comfort level. So that's really an important thing.

I can't advise you to do anything other than listen to your body, and listen to your emotions, and listen to how you feel. It's like, I eat this thing and it feels something afterwards, stop eating that thing, right? So that's so important now.

Also, in a weird way, it exhausts me. Then I connect with somebody who's come back because they bought something last time. They're like, “Oh, you're here again. Good because I wanted to get a signed copy of the next book in the series,” or they even just talk to me about it. Again, I'm creating an experience for that reader.

When you create an experience for that person, that's marketing.Dean Wesley Smith had shared one time that a print book is, on average, handled by seven people. So that print book that somebody bought from you and has signed from you, maybe they have a picture with you and that's exciting, that's something they're going to share.

That's the marketing. That's the seven points, you know what I mean? Your book cover is a billboard. That's really important.

Then the other thing that's funny, and Liz and I had this conversation, I did Frightmare in the Falls in Niagara Falls a few years ago that was far enough away I had to stay in a hotel overnight.

The table cost me a lot of money, and I had my stepdaughter come in one day on the Saturday. I could handle the Friday night and the Sunday myself because they were slower, but the Saturday was going to be a busy day. So I paid her to come in and spend the day with me.

I think I brought in maybe $1,500 or $1,600 in sales, and by the time I calculated the cost of my inventory, plus the costs of all the other costs, and the meals and whatever, I think I made $100 off that conference. It was like a three-day weekend.

Here's the thing. Liz goes, “Well, that was a huge waste.” I said, “Well, A, I'm ahead slightly.”

Yes, it was a lot of work for 100 bucks, but that was the event where the gentleman showed up in a werewolf costume. That was the event where new people who had never bought any of my books or even knew who I was, walked away with some of my books.

That event was a marketing campaign, no different than like an Amazon ad campaign, where your book is seen by somebody who may be interested in buying it.So I say, okay, yes, I only walked away $100 richer from this event, but I have the experience, and I've given lots of people the experience of who Mark Leslie is, the name I write most of my stuff under.

That, again, is so frustrating because I can't point to anything and go, “Look, Liz, my sales went up magically on Amazon a week after.”

Joanna: Well, I think the other thing here, actually, this is important, and I've done this many times, is you—

Take photos that you can use for social media that make things look bigger than they actually are.I mean, even my signings at Bookvault. You know, Bookvault is a printing factory. It's not like some sexy location, although, of course, book printing is very sexy.

Mark: It is very sexy.

Joanna: They've just got a room, well, it's not even a special room, it's like a corridor, and we set up a thing. The angle you take photos at can make things look much better.

Mark: They look amazing. I'm like, I can't wait to have that one day. Meanwhile, you're in a hallway, right?

Joanna: Yes, you're in a hallway. I mean, you and I, do you remember when we did Frankfurt Book Fair together? When you had hair.

Mark: Yes, I had some hair.

Joanna: You had some hair back then. There's some pictures of us at Frankfurt Book Fair.

Mark: The pictures are pretty amazing. It looks like a huge audience.

Joanna: Actually, we were in some random hall. There's loads of halls. I mean, it's a huge fair. There was hardly anyone there, but we did it, and the photos look really good. So, I mean, that's a little secret, I guess.

Mark: All six people in the audience looked way bigger.

Joanna: So I guess that's the other thing.

If you do an event, and you're doing it for marketing, make sure you get pictures.Just get your friend or some passerby to kind of look as if you're signing or something, and then you can use that in social media, and that will help too.

Mark: Oh, for sure. I mean, and the same thing too, I've been at book events where nobody showed up. I was in Vancouver once at an independent bookstore for three hours signing copies of one of my books, Haunted Bookstores and Libraries: Tomes of Terror, and nobody showed up.

I didn't sell a single book to anybody, even though my publisher advertised it, I advertised it, and put it all on social media. I spent three hours hanging out with the staff and having a blast chatting with them, instead of being a miserable guy who was all upset because nobody came to my party.

I had a blast with these booksellers, and I'm positive they hand-sold my book when I left. Again, the experience we had together was richer than me just selling a few books that day.

Joanna: Yes, always be connecting. That's probably the quote of the day.So we're almost out of time, but I did want to come to a sort of bigger question. Now, you and I co-wrote The Relaxed Author back in 2021. The reason we did that was we had a conversation, and one of the listeners were like, oh, you should write that book. So we did.

Mark: Thank you, Jo's listeners.

Joanna: At the time we wrote it was because authors were really stressed. At that point it was really the end of organic reach. The end of organic reach on Amazon. The end of organic reach on Facebook. It was a real shift to paid ads. There was a lot of angst about KU.

That was what was going on in that period. Now, I mean, that's kind of as normal now. The changes have really sped up. We've got generative AI and the impacts of that, and there's always stress in the author community. I wondered what your thoughts were on—

How can authors be more relaxed about change, in general?Any thoughts on the impact of AI, given that you also work at Draft2Digital? Or your own personal thoughts?

Mark: It's a tough one because it's like exponential. The change is just growing at a faster rate than we can keep up with, and there's more things to be anxious about.

So the first thing is to take a deep breath. I know it's a weird question to ask, but I mean, it's like, how does this affect my goals and my long-term plans? Or am I just fixated on looking at a dashboard all day instead of getting the important work done?

I think people need that more. I need that more. Jo, I pick up the book sometimes because I get anxious about stuff, and I pick it up and go, oh yeah, we said some pretty smart things here. We should listen to ourselves every once in a while.

So if I have to remind myself to listen to the things, I mean, I can imagine that there's a lot of change.

So here's a couple things we know. The technology is not going to get put back in Pandora's box. It's not going to go back into the bottle. It's going to keep going, and it's going to grow, whether we ride the wave or we get swallowed by the wave.

So there may be ways to look at a new technology, and I know this is hard, especially in this divisive world we live in, but look at something with a mind not of “I don't like this because I've never tried this vegetable, but I think it tastes horrible, so I'm never going to try it.”

Try to look at it with an open mind. Try to see if there's a way within your goal set and within the things that are important to you and that you value, whether it's your moralistic values, or the things that you just value in general.

Are there ways that you can leverage that for your author business in ways that can ease some of the pain points that you have?

Because we all have pain points, right? So you may never be somebody who's going to use a technology a certain way, but you may want to use it in another way that can ease you.

So for example, I've been using, thanks to you, and I got the code off of your website, the ProWritingAid, I got a discount on that. So I clean up my manuscript with ProWritingAid before I send it to a human editor because it saves me money, and probably saves my editor a lot of anxiety and ulcers.

It cleans up some of the boring, redundant stuff I always do, the habits I have as a writer. So there are ways that technology can help in so many different ways if we're willing to work with it.

I don't just mean use it, I mean work with it. I mean understand. No different than understanding how to operate a vehicle, no different than how to understand operating a word processing software.

I had to go from typewriter to Paperback Writer, then Word Perfect, then Microsoft Word, over the years. I started off pen and paper and then I went to typewriter, because I'm one of those old guys. So I see it's no different.

Sometimes we get so anxious about the extremes of what this could do, as opposed to looking at what it could do. You know, it could be bad, but it could also do these things for us. It's a hard thing for us to do, so deep breath is usually where I often start.

I'm a guy with high blood pressure, and I get excited very easily, so I have to monitor this. So I'm speaking from personal experience, stop and take a deep breath.

Joanna: Yes, and also, I think this does come back to, as you mentioned it earlier, obviously the double down on being human and in-person events. To me, there are things that AI is useful for. Certainly for me, cover design.

You mentioned editing there. Marketing, oh my goodness. I mean —

I think most authors are going to be very happy the day we can just tell an AI agent, “Here's my book. Please go market it.” That will be amazing, and that's coming.Mark: Authors hate marketing. It stresses them out.

Joanna: Exactly, and so there are things that we very, very much would like that to do.

But in-person events. I mean, for sure, the robots will come at some point, but there still is going to be a human sitting behind a table at a human event, selling books to other humans.

You can't get much more human than selling books at physical events, I suppose.Mark: I mean, it's one of the things that allows you to stand out in the digital slush pile, in the digital masses, is the real human. Now, I can talk about the story I wrote because I know it inside out because I spent 10 years writing this book, or whatever it was.

You know this better than anyone else, and so you can connect with people in a more meaningful way that even the technology that exists can't. It can't respond and interact and engage the way you can. You are the best marketing tool for your book.

Joanna: Fantastic.

Where can people find all your books and everything you do online?Mark: Well, you can find me at MarkLeslie.ca. You can find links to me on all the social medias, etc. If you're looking for A Book in Hand, the preorder links for this book will be at MarkLeslie.ca/abookinhand. Nice and easy.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Mark. That was great.

Takeaways: * In-person signings and events provide opportunities for authors to create connections with readers and offer unique experiences. * Authors should focus on genuine connections with the right readers rather than making immediate sales. * Book adjacent events, specialty shops, and local fairs are great venues for in-person events. * Authors should prepare by promoting the event on social media and in newsletters, having merchandise and props that align with their brand, and engaging with other authors and vendors. * Avoid being too salesy and instead focus on connecting with readers and helping them find the right books. * In-person events can lead to long-term relationships and word-of-mouth recommendations. When selling books at in-person events, consider bringing a variety of genres and titles, including your own books and books by other authors. * Use QR codes to make it easy for readers to sign up for your email list and receive free books or other incentives. * Accept mobile payments to accommodate readers who may not carry cash. * Manage your inventory and sales using tools like Square to track transactions and print receipts. * Focus on creating a positive experience for readers and building connections with them. * Embrace technology and AI to streamline processes and alleviate pain points in your author business. * Take a deep breath and approach change with an open mind, considering how it aligns with your goals and values. * In-person events provide an opportunity to stand out in the digital world and connect with readers on a personal level.

The post Selling Books In Person At Live Events With Mark Lefebvre first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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Success as an author comes with challenges around managing money, setting boundaries, and living sustainably without burning out. Sacha Black/Ruby Roe talks about her lessons learned after five years as a full-time author entrepreneur.

In the intro, Content marketing for authors [BookBub]; Vineyard research [Books and Travel]; AI-generated voice cloning for select US Audible narrators [The Verge]; How AI is changing audiobooks and how it echoes changes in the music industry [Music Tectonics]; Blood Vintage; Comment écrire un roman — Joanna Penn;

Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Sacha Black writes spicy sapphic fantasy romance as Ruby Roe, as well as books for authors. She's the host of The Rebel Author Podcast and an international professional speaker. Sacha recently did a solo episode on her lessons learned after 5 years full-time, and we discuss aspects of that in the interview.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Why pivot to a new genre — mindset and money shifts
• Finding freedom from writing under a pen name
• Publishing and business model changes required with rapid sales growth
• Learning to outsource as your author business grows
• Repurposing content across multiple social media platforms
• Your books are not your pension. Your pension is your pension — so invest! (Check out my list of money books here.)
• Avoiding burnout — spending time on hobbies and social activities

You can find Sacha at SachaBlack.co.uk or at RubyRoe.co.uk.

Transcript of Interview with Sacha BlackJoanna: Sacha Black writes spicy sapphic fantasy romance as Ruby Roe, as well as books for authors. She's the host of The Rebel Author Podcast and an international professional speaker. So welcome back to the show, Sacha.

Sacha: Thank you for having me.

Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you today. Now, you were last on this show—I mean, you have your own show—but you were on the show in August 2022, when you had just celebrated three years full time. We talked about your lessons learned.

Now you're at five years and things have changed a lot. Now we are going to break this down into sections, but let's start with the genre stuff, the type of books you now write. Like what you were doing then and what you're doing now, and—

Why change your genre and the type of books you write?Sacha: So when I left my day job in 2019, I had found some success sharing all the lessons that I'd learned as a writer and compiling those and putting them into craft books.

I was doing okay. I was averaging sort of 40,000 to 50,000 pounds a year across the business, but I'd also reached a plateau. I wasn't really growing and wasn't really earning anymore. With the type of business it was, as a nonfiction author, you have so many different streams that you can actually have too many different streams.

So I was getting really, really tired, and also kind of feeling like I was making a job for myself, rather than having left my day job to like, “live the dream.” Especially because I'd left my day job to write fiction, but the fiction that I had written up to that point was young adult fantasy.

I think that's like most indie authors that I meet do that, or think they're going to do that at some point, and then we all find the thing we're supposed to be writing.

So then I'd kind of gotten tired and felt like I was in this job instead of running a business. Then I stumbled upon a sapphic, so lesbian young adult book, and for the first time, I read and I had emotions. I was like, oh, my goodness me, is this what everybody else feels when they're reading?

Then, of course, I dived into binging everything that I could get my hands on, but it was all young adult.

I stumbled across a spicy adult lesbian book, and everything changed. I knew that that was what I wanted to do.So that's what I'm writing now, adult fantasy romance, but for lesbians. Or sapphic people, I should say, because that's more inclusive.

Joanna: Or people who like reading those books. I think you don't have to identify that way to enjoy reading those books.

Sacha: No, absolutely. There are straight characters and all kinds of different characters in the books. I guess that's just the genre catchphrase is, you know, sapphic fantasy romance.

Joanna: You said there, so many indies do this. They start writing in one area, and then eventually they kind of find what they really want.

Why do you think it takes time to find what you really want to write?Sacha: I think for me, it was dealing with expectations. I'm a bit of a people pleaser. Thank you therapy for knocking that out of me. So I was sort of doing what I thought I should be doing. Doing something polite, reputable, and that's also what I'd read.

I mean, as a queer person, queer fiction, up until recently, was really hard to find. There wasn't a lot of it. There certainly wasn't any of it when I was at school or in my formative years. So it just took me that amount of time to actually find it.

In terms of why other people do it? I'm not really sure. I think we all have our different journeys. Sometimes it's other people's expectations. “Oh, well, if you're going to write a book, you have to be traditionally published,” or, “Oh, you have to write proper fiction,” or, “Oh, write literary,” or whatever.

The more creative we are, the more we sink into that love of art, that love of the word, we free ourselves from those expectations and constraints. That's really what art is, I suppose, and I do feel like writing is art. So, yes, I think it's a shedding of expectations. Especially as indies, we're naughty.

Joanna: In terms of those expectations there—I mean, obviously you use the word spicy, so we'll keep that word—and for me, it has been writing darker things, I guess. Maybe it's that those are the things that our parents or people who know us in real life or whatever, are like, “Oh, I didn't know you were like that.”

Sacha: 100%. Neither of my parents have read my books, thank god.

Joanna: Well, they told you they haven't!

Sacha: Yes, they told me they haven't. My mum keeps threatening to read it. I'm like, “Don't though. It's really okay, you don't have to.”

I think it's very difficult because you can tell things about an author from their words. People come up to me and go, “Oh, I'm really sorry about ‘blah, blah, blah,'” and I'm like, wait, what, how did you sort of work that out?

I think any type of writing does force us to be vulnerable in a way because we cannot help the subconscious things that come out on the page. So people do make judgments, and so there probably is a bit of fear about what people will think. I've just reached the “I don't care anymore” point of life.

Joanna: You wait until you're in your 50s! I'm not even there yet, but I keep thinking about it.

Okay, so let's talk about your name. So Sacha Black's not your real name, and now you've got Ruby Roe.

Why did you decide to go with (another) pen name, Ruby Roe?Sacha: Well, originally, when I decided to write this spicy lesbian stuff, because it was so new, and because I did have a podcast, and I had been a speaker in certain conferences and things, I had enough of a reputation that I didn't really want anybody to know what I was doing.

I wanted to do it in secret so that there were no expectations. It's all this people pleasing, you know, doing what I think other people want me to do rather than doing what I want to do. Thank you, therapy. So I had to do it in secret, which meant I needed a different name.

It was, funnily enough, my stepdad who suggested I write spicy books. I was like, well, I'll write spicy if I can use your name. So his surname is actually Roe, and I love a bit of alliteration, so that's where Ruby Roe came from.

So it was basically I needed to do it in secret with nobody watching over me, so that I could be really free to write whatever I wanted, and it to be the most true story to me. Not necessarily my life, but just free of expectation, free of pressure, free of anybody looking at me.

Actually, the funny thing is, is that when I then finished it, it was done, and so it felt like a cutoff point. So actually, I was then like, okay, I don't care what anybody thinks now because I've done it. It's too late, I can't take it back.

So it was at that point, when I sent it off to the editor, that I was like, you know what, I don't mind talking about this anymore. Then I felt much freer because I'd done the brave thing of writing it, and then talking about it didn't feel so scary anymore.

Joanna: So I think it's been about 18 months, hasn't it?

Sacha: Yes.

Joanna: So about 18 months since you started. So how has it gone? Tell us about how the Ruby books have gone compared to the Sacha Black books, I guess.

How have you driven your incredible success as Ruby Roe?Sacha: Okay, so for anybody who is numbers sensitive, like fair warning, I'm actually going to give you numbers. I think it's really important that we're honest.

So, okay, I have to pull the timeline back a little bit more. So in the summer of 2022 I released my last nonfiction book, or my most recent nonfiction book. It was at that point, just coming in towards the end of 2022, that I decided I was going to not just write sapphic fiction, but throw everything at writing sapphic fiction.

This meant more or less giving up sort of that 80/20 rule. You know, I could only spend 20% of my time on nonfiction, and at that point I was still doing freelance, so really it was even less than 20%.

In January 2023 I made 926 pounds on Amazon. I'm a wide author, but we're just going to look at Amazon for now, for the sake of these. 1.4% of which was fiction. So like 15 quid or 13 quid or something. Everything else was nonfiction.

Last month, July 2024, which was 17 months later, I made 20,000 pounds on Amazon, of which 1.2% was nonfiction. So 250 quid.

Joanna: Thank you. Everyone's like, “Woo hoo! That's amazing. I want to write spicy sapphic romance!”

Sacha: So, I mean, it was like 17-18 months for a complete 180 business shift. I still am shocked by those numbers. So that's how it's gone, pretty darn well.

Joanna: We should just say that's not been one month. You've been pretty consistently doing a lot better.

Sacha: I mean, last month was a launch month, but I'm averaging between 10,000 and 15,000 on Amazon, and I am a wide author. I do have one series in KU, but it's my biggest store, followed by Apple, I think is next after that.

Joanna: And, of course, the Kickstarter. So tell us about all those other things because you have changed your publishing model as well.

Sacha: Totally.

Joanna: And your marketing.

Give us the publishing and marketing side.Sacha: So Kickstarters, I've done one Kickstarter. I can't really say I “do them.” I did one Kickstarter in February, which was the worst timing ever, but in very Sacha fashion, I was like, “Yes, I'm going to do it. Let's just do it!” Then I did it, and it nearly killed me, but I did it, and it was amazing.

So I'm doing my second one next month, as we record this. So September 2024 is the second one. That does bring in huge chunks of money. Obviously, there are huge costs associated with it, but it's also a different platform, a different group of readers, definitely. Obviously, you do drive some readers there, but it's other people who are very, very willing to pay more per like—what's the phrase—per order.

Joanna: Average Order Value.

Sacha: Thank you. Average order value is just incredible. I can't even quantify how much higher, a lot higher.

Joanna: It's 10x for me. It's a 10x average order value than fiction on Amazon.

Sacha: Yes, exactly. So that is amazing. I also have Shopify. I'm driving all of this through a range of different means, which I'll talk about in a second, and wanting to expand how I'm doing that.

So at the moment, a lot of my traffic comes from TikTok. Not all of it anymore because there have been an awful lot of algorithmic shifts, and so we're doing a lot of replication across Instagram.

Social media typically doesn't really sell books — until it does sell books for you. It's just one of these weird situations. TikTok, particularly, is quite good at driving traffic, and ultimately traffic means visibility, which means more sales. The more visibility you have, the more sales you'll end up getting.

I am trying very, very hard to look at other ways and means because nothing lasts forever. That is definitely something I have learned from this industry.

So I'm doing low level Amazon ads, just about to start looking at Facebook ads for Shopify. Just so that I am not reliant on any one source of the traffic, for one, or income. I don't want anybody owning me.

Joanna: What about TikTok ads?Because you've done it organically so far, haven't you?

Sacha: I have. It's so difficult, isn't it, because all of these social media platforms eventually die out because they put advertising on there, and then your organic reach reduces, and then people either pay to play or they don't.

Then people don't always enjoy what's on their feed, and so people leave the platform. We are seeing a bit of that at the moment.

Will I do TikTok ads? Maybe. I definitely think that it's still in the forming stage. They're still very, very new.

TikTok Shop is something that I'm looking at because I'm seeing a lot of authors talking about the fact that their videos and posts that are linked to their TikTok Shop accounts are getting vastly more visibility than their non TikTok Shop accounts.

Joanna: So just on that, just explain why. Because—

TikTok is essentially now a publisher, aren't they?Sacha: So they've just set up a distribution warehouse in Birmingham as well, Birmingham UK, that is. So they are doing sort of the fulfillment side. We print and then send all our books there. So I don't know whether they're necessarily a publisher.

Joanna: In the US, they do some printing, I think.

Sacha: I don't know about that. I mean, I only know what they're doing in the UK because the TikTok Shop in America is completely separate. They don't even have the same team inside TikTok. I actually had a conversation this week about that, looking at whether or not to do it.

You have to choose the right income streams, the right traffic streams, the right advertising streams for you. You can very easily do all of it and then get exhausted. Ask me how I know!

Joanna: Yes, it was funny, earlier you said you had too many different streams of income and it's tiring. Now you've just done it again, but in a different way.

Sacha: Exactly. Well, I mean, that's why I am trying to. So with the Sacha stuff, that's changed. I used to do all of the things. Now if I do speaking, it's only certain things, and also webinars because they're higher value than, I don't know, things that are lower value.

I'm basically trying to be sensible with my time so I don't burn out. She says laughing because that's exactly what she's always on the brink of.

Joanna: Well, I think it's interesting though, because —

You are surfing a moment where your organic content has hit. You've also hit a hungry market, which is authentic to you — — because of your lived experience. So you're making the most of that, but as you said, things go up and down, and nothing lasts forever.

You're writing pretty fast as well, aren't you?

Sacha: I mean, proportionately, I suppose, but not compared to the old model of rapid releasing a book a month. This year I think I'll have written three or four books, and I'll only have released three, but then I will have done two Kickstarters and seven conferences. So, I mean, that's the interesting thing.

One of the things that I'm trying to do next year is reduce the amount of stuff, the other things, so that I have more gaps, like more still time and more time at home, so that I can produce more words. That's my happy place. When I'm drafting, that is my most joyful bits of work time.

Joanna: I think also, I mean, there is the time for the strategy as well, the kind of step back and have a look. It's great being in the maelstrom of everything going gangbusters, but then at some points kind of stepping back and thinking of the bigger picture.

Sometimes I find that if I'm traveling or at a conference when someone else is speaking, that can give you some different perspective, can't it? Or even like—I wanted to talk to you on this because obviously I learn a lot from you.

I found your five year thing really, really interesting. It's a far cry, actually, from your three years.

Sacha: I do not even recognize the person I was two years ago. Like, I actually am not even sure I recognize who I was last year. I am so different.

It's very, very hard to quantify the mindset and psychological changes that happen when you go through such a significant change like this.Joanna: Well, let's talk about some of those things. Actually, I wanted to point out I have a timeline. So everybody can go to thecreativepenn.com/timeline, and I've been sharing these lessons learned every year. In fact, by the time this goes out, I might have shared my latest one, whatever that'll be, 14 or 13 years, whatever it is.

Sacha: They're like my faves.

Joanna: What's interesting, I went back and had a look, and in my year four, I went from five to six figures. Then in my year five, I doubled that to multi six figures. It's so weird that in a completely different way you've done the same thing, which I just thought was really odd.

I wonder, because, of course, mine wasn't TikTok, I wasn't doing that genre. So when people say, “Oh, well, that's okay for Sacha. She can do that because she's writing sex, basically,” or, “That's okay for her because ‘blah, blah, blah,'” or, “That's okay for me because whatever.”

Like, people always seem to say these things, and yet, both of us have done such different things.

On year five, I actually wonder if there is something just about the maturity of a business that shifts it at that point. You needed those earlier years to get to that point.

Sacha: Yes, I wonder the same thing. I certainly had people telling me not to write lesbian fiction because it doesn't sell, and I'm just laughing so hard now. I think we all face those people, like the naysayers that are like, “I don't know if you should do that. There's no market there.”

Maybe it's easy for me to say because, blah, blah, blah, but also, it's not because I worked myself so hard I nearly burnt out.

So, yes, I am literally on an identical pathway. So last tax year, 102,000 pounds. I've already done that this tax year, and we're only four months in. So I'm definitely on track to double, well, probably more than double, this year. That's bonkers. So that's going from year five to year six for me, so I'm a year behind you.

In terms the practical stuff, I mean, so many things, Joanna. So many things I have learned. Okay, I need to take a deep breath because this is mortifying in some ways.

So the biggest thing I think that has happened is the amount of—and I don't want to use this word, but it is true, or it's how I feel—but like bureaucracy around the money.

There are so many things that we should be doing with money that I possibly wasn't doing. You know, very, very strict record keeping. Certainly in the UK, when you go over the VAT threshold, you have to be so militant with your record keeping. That means things like receipts, like reconciling stuff.

You need to be on top of the amount that you're keeping aside for tax or VAT payments.

Actually, you get to a certain point where even if you can do it, you're probably not best placed to do it. There are other people who are very qualified, and that's their job, and they really enjoy doing it.

That's one of the things that I've learned this year, is that I don't have to do everything. It really hurts me saying that out loud, but I don't, and actually, I'm not best placed to do everything because I'm not an expert in everything. I just need to be an expert in one thing.

Then like on the side of that, understanding legal terms, financial terms, there's so many more words and like clauses and laws that you need to be aware of. Like that alone is different in every country.

If you are a business owner with your own website, selling books from your website, you actually are the responsible person who needs to understand all of those things. I certainly experienced some quite scary moments where I knew more about our industry and the legal implications than accountants.

Thank you, Jo, for educating me on those topics. The accountants didn't necessarily know the right things because they also are not experts in every single area. So I had to move accountant.

Things like cash flow as well. This was a huge, huge problem for me. Before I exploded, I was bringing in maybe like 3000 a month, 2000-3000 a month. Then that first kind of viral month I had, I did just under 3000 on Shopify alone.

Now that seems like, oh, great, you've made 3000 extra pounds. Well, no, because with Shopify, the way that it works with the printer, they charge you immediately for the sale and the printing of that book, but they also charge you for the shipping of that book.

Then Shopify doesn't give you that money for, say, I don't know, three days, five days, something like that.

What it does is cause this really jarring cash flow problem where you don't want to close shop, because obviously you want to have those sales and encourage them and keep that going, but you can't afford to pay for the shipping and printing of the books that need to be shipped and printed.

So I had to get a credit card, which I hadn't done in, donkeys, like, probably five years I hadn't had a credit card. So that was, like a really big, terrifying step for me.

Obviously, it all got paid off because you know the money's coming in, but those are the kinds of things that you have to think about when you do spontaneously explode like this.

Joanna: There's a couple of things there. So the first thing is, I really love that you talk about the—I don't like the word bureaucracy, basically—but I mean, I guess it is all of the stuff you need to run a business.

This is the big difference between what authors think they are, which is, “I'm an author,” and even if you're running a business just on Amazon, they do all of that for you, but as soon as you start to run your own store.

Generally, if you are a director of a company, even if you're the only employee — as both you and I are of our companies — the responsibilities of a director of a company are legally required.In any country where people are listening, and you can use ChatGPT for this, it's very useful for all of this legal stuff. It's like, what are the responsibilities of a director in whatever country? One of those, like you mentioned, is record keeping.

As you said, as well, even if you outsource your accounting to someone, which, again, you should if you're running a company, you are still responsible for it. So you have to understand enough to look at your accounts.

I mean, I know you've got an accounting system now, and you're doing all the right things, but it's scary, isn't it?

It's scary to suddenly have to be a grown up business person.As opposed to like, was it just a hobby before?

Sacha: Well, I think I always wanted it to be a business and to be a serious business person, but when you're just making ends meet, which, more or less, I was just making ends meet. It was fine. We were fine and comfortable and paying all the bills, but there wasn't an awful lot left at the end of the month. You're not forced to think about it.

Whereas now, if I've turned over 100 grand in four months, I'm going to have a pretty hefty tax bill, which means you have to put money aside. Actually, I still am nervous about money and about the accounting side of it.

So I've actually got the accountants to make me custom reports so that I can track through the year approximately how much tax money I should save, how much self-tax, whatever the words are. I know it all clearly, but you know the corporation tax, things like this.

I still feel like I'm a baby in this world and need that level of reassurance. People who are fully trained can do these things for you, you just have to ask. So yes, I do have an accounting system. It's almost like somebody who knows more than me was really helpful and helped me to do that, and told me to set up a pension and things!

I'm trying to save for tax, I'm trying to put money into a pension, because you also have to understand how you can take money out of the business sensibly without incurring huge, huge bills with the government at the end of a tax year.

It's a lot to learn. Almost like when you're a new author and you're like, “Okay, I'm going to publish indie,” and then all of a sudden you have all this stuff to learn about marketing, about publishing, and it's a new language. It really, really is.

You think all of these words that we talk about, and other people, non-writers, when you start talking about your business, they just gloss over. It's the same here with money. I feel like I'm still learning all of these terms, and I wasn't stupid beforehand.

Joanna: But it made you feel stupid, didn't it?

Sacha: Yes, it did. I felt really naive and foolish thinking that I knew everything that I was supposed to know about this area.

Joanna: But how could you? That's why I wanted to talk to you about this too.

Obviously, we have had a lot of conversations over the last 18 months, and what struck me in talking to you was,

“Oh, my goodness, how many other people out there are not doing the things they need to do in order to be successful in their business?”The reality is, since 2008, since I've been in this industry, I have seen so many people, in fact, like yourself, who have hit some big wave, and they've made a ton of money, and then they've kind of disappeared. Now, you know, you said nothing lasts forever.

That wave passes on, or the genre shifts, or TikTok shifts, or whatever it is, shifts. Then suddenly you can't necessarily hire a whole family to be in the business, or you might have bought some massive house or whatever.

I've seen too many people disappear because they thought the cash flow would last forever.Sacha: If you are lucky enough to make excess money, like more money than you actually need to pay your bills, then the clever thing to do would be to make that money make more money for you, which is what I'm trying desperately hard to do now.

It is scary because you have to sometimes lock money away for a really long time for the future. Some of us thought we'd be invincible forever, and 20, except now we're heading towards 40, and we're really tired.

Joanna: We might think a pension is a really good idea! Actually, it is good to talk about pension because, again, you're the same age as one of my sisters, and I'm the eldest.

We're both the eldest of five, and so we feel responsible for our younger siblings, but it's impossible to talk to your siblings because they never listen to you. So, of course, you have to find a proxy and lecture them about pensions, which is what I've been doing with you.

I think what's interesting, on a serious note, is a few years back, and I think I was guilty of it too, is there was at one point, there was a sort of trendy thing that people were saying, “Oh, my books will be my pension.”

At the time, and this may have been in the earlier days of when there was more blue water, as Becca Syme would say. Then people just thought, “Oh, well, let's say I have my 50 books or whatever, then when I'm old, it'll just pay me enough money to live.”

We're at a point now, where that is not true now. Given that you're, let's say, 30 or 20 years off retirement or whatever, then it's like, well, what if my books are not my retirement? Who knows what the hell the world is going to be like or whatever.

My books aren't my pension (superannuation), but my pension can be my pension.What do you think about that?

Sacha: Yes, I mean, I definitely always thought my books would be my pension. I was definitely of that era in the indie world where I'm like, “Yes, yes, my books are going to be my pension.” Whether it's naive or not, I feel like now, at 37, that I won't retire because I don't want to retire because I'll get bored.

Also, at 37, I'm definitely not as energetic as I was at 20. So I'm not naive enough to think that I might change my mind about that.

So what we see with books is that we have the nice launch spike where they make a lot of money, and then for a couple of years, they do really well, and they'll plateau at a certain amount of money per month.

Unless you either make them current and relevant, or you continue to have successful marketing—which I do see that my Girl Games books, the first series that I wrote with Ruby, sells more now than it did when I launched it—but unless you continue to work on that, it won't.

It might not continue anyway because different trends come up, different mediums of story come up, different tech things come up which will change the face of how we consume entertainment.

Anyway, there are no guarantees, and therefore the only thing that we can do, just like when we talk about either being exclusive or wide with our books, the only thing we really can do is have enough pots of money, investments, assets, that we're not reliant on any one of those for our old age and our pension years.

Joanna: Yes, and pivoting into new things as they come up. I mean, both of us in our careers so far, we've pivoted out of one thing and into another thing. That's the other reality, even if you think, “Oh, yes, of course, my books can be my pension,” well, I guess they can be if you want to keep doing the marketing.

We'll use TikTok as an example, because you very kindly, like one weekend when I was like, “Okay, I'm going to do it. I need your help. Get on the phone with me,” and you very kindly got on the phone with me. Then I was like, “Yes, I'm going to do it.” Then it was within 24 hours, I messaged you and said, “No, I'm not going to do it.”

Sacha: I did laugh.

Joanna: I know, but I did try briefly. Obviously, I didn't try that hard. I already knew that it wasn't going to be great for me, and then I did, I tried, and it didn't work.

This is the reality. Like I know that there are people listening who felt the same way about TikTok. There are lots of people who are loving it and lots of people who are not.

That's going to happen in another five years, in another 10 years, in another 20 years. Like wherever you are in your life, your life changes, and what you want to spend your time on changes.

Do we want to be doing book marketing forever?Sacha: It's almost like a privilege problem, right? When we reach a certain amount of income, we have the privilege and the freedom to be able to choose how we spend our time. So, it's like, well, will I do this forever? I honestly don't know.

I'm doing it now because it brings me joy, and I feel like that is the biggest lesson of this whole journey.

The minute I stopped doing things for other people and started writing the things that I wanted to write, doing the business things that I found enjoyable, all of a sudden, success came.I do feel like that is a very common thing that happens in this community. I mean, obviously it doesn't happen to everybody, but I don't know.

Joanna: I think so. So just on the mindset, I mean, you've touched on it a little bit. One of the things I liked in your lessons learned was this kind of realization, you said, “I work the same level of hard as I did a year ago, but now I earn more. That was a strange thing to try to process.” I guess that is about money mindset, but—

What are some of the mindset shifts for you over the last couple of years?Sacha: So the big lesson that I learned around actually hitting a really arbitrary financial goal that I'd set years ago—that I just hyper focused on, and was like, no, this is what I need to do—is that nothing actually changes when you hit that goal. Other than I fell into a giant deep depression for two weeks.

I say depression, I mean “small d” depression, I don't mean clinical depression. I really struggled to get out of bed for two weeks. For two weeks, I was miserable. I'd hit the most successful financial point I'd ever hit, and I was miserable.

It's because I hadn't thought further than success, and I think a lot of us don't do that. A lot of us don't really think about, okay, what if we actually do hit the success?

We think about it only in terms of fear of judgment and fear of expectation. We don't actually think about it in terms of the logistical consequences of that.

So I had to take a hot second to make some new goals and get some new long-term plans because you definitely get to a certain point, and more money is just more money. Like, it loses some of that meaning that you were chasing it, or it certainly did for me anyway.

I think some of the other things are boundaries. Like, I am so bad with boundaries, and that's definitely something I've learned from you. Well, I am learning. It's a work in progress.

So putting boundaries in because one of the brilliant consequences about earning more money as a consequence of selling more books is that more people know who you are. More people find you on social media, and more people want to take a piece of you, right?

They want to send you messages. They want to say thank you. All of those things are lovely, but if you take on the responsibility of replying to every single human being that reaches out and contacts you, you are going to put yourself in a hole.

Ask me how I know. I spend my whole life learning everything the hard way so that other people don't have to.

Joanna: I don't think it works like that, though. I think that you still have to learn it yourself.

Sacha: So, yes, putting in some boundaries. It's been a very difficult process of forcing myself to step back and reminding myself that I don't owe anybody anything, because I really felt like I did.

Also, bringing a team on. So I have a social media manager who will reply to certain things and comments and DMs and will send on the things that I need to personally respond to. Just having that person in front of me means that I don't have to be the pit bull, somebody else can do it for me.

Joanna: Yes, and I know that was hard for you to outsource.

How did you find that person to outsource to?Because a lot of people want to find people like that.

Sacha: So I actually have four people now that I'm working with. One was in the community and a friend of an author friend.

One is somebody I met 10 years ago through the blogging world and is a social media manager by day, like that's their job. So I went to them through their company, and just said, look, can I use your services?

Somebody else is an author and also a VA. Then somebody else was a patron and wanted to offer help. So I can't give any hard advice other than networking, I suppose. The advice is networking. Talk to people, make friends with people.

Joanna: Yes, and also ask for referrals. I mean, when I lost my virtual assistant, I'm now working with the same person that you use for your podcast now works on my podcast. So I think referrals and networking.

The reality is a lot of authors are not making that much money and do services. So I think it actually keeps it in the community, and that's quite nice.

So I guess the other thing we should mention is that you've mentioned burnout a couple of times. You've worked super, super hard. You've just come back from a wonderful trip to New Zealand, which was a work trip that you combined with a family holiday.

What new perspective has this time away given you?How are you going to make sure you don't end up in the same place [of burnout]?Sacha: So three or four big things, I would say. Well, I mean the first one sort of happened before I went, in that I stopped writing. I was hell bent on finishing a book before I went, and I realized if I continued, I wasn't going to make it to New Zealand.

So I stopped, and I spent the last two weeks setting up this system with these four people, and outsourcing, and taking everything off my plate. The big lesson there is knowing that even if I can do something, I don't have to do it.

I'm not good at everything, and you actually have to let go in order to give yourself the time, grace, and space to be able to do the thing that gives you the most joy. Which ultimately, for all of us writers, is the writing. So that was one.

The other thing that's connected to that is knowing that even if I'm on holiday, our businesses are such that they create passive income.

So last month was my best sales month across every single platform, and I was on holiday for like three quarters of last month, having a very jolly time, not doing any work, really. So recognizing that nothing is going to fall over if I take a week off.

So that was that was pretty big, as well, because I definitely had the incorrect mindset that if I wasn't working, I wasn't earning. Of course, I don't know how many times you say it on your podcast and how many times I've read it, but until I saw it, I didn't really believe it.

Joanna: Just on that, because we did talk about that before, about your pension. I say to Jonathan, if something happens to me, you know, unfortunately, I think it's about two years.

If I do nothing for two years, like if I'm gone, then I think the income will just spiral down after about two years unless you do something.So, in a way, it's passive income. The fact is, taking a couple of weeks off makes no difference. Taking a couple of months or a couple of years off does make a difference.

Sacha: Yes, but that does go back to what we were saying about the pension and the era of maybe five years ago, when everybody was like, “Oh, my books are my pension.” Well, not if they only last making income for two years.

Joanna: Exactly.

Sacha: Then the other one. I have to rest. I hate saying that, but it's true.

Apparently, apparently, you feel better after you've rested. Who knew? Who actually knew that when you do fun things that are not at your desk, you feel better. So that was awkwardly embarrassingly horrible, but true.

So I've kind of come back like, okay, I need some more hobbies. I need some more vacant time.

The other thing is the social side. I hate this, but I need people. I really like my own time. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely have never been more filled with joy than not having to work with people directly in person, but that doesn't also mean I need to never see people.

Apparently, seeing people also gives me joy. So that's another one, is that I do need to find different ways of socializing and spending time with others.

Joanna: I actually think that this comes back to this whole being a writer, when before we had a day job. Then when it becomes your job, as well as something you still enjoy, then it's like, oh, I have to find a hobby or some other way to get yourself out of the house.

It's so funny, because we're quite similar in many ways, and one of the things we do like is our exercise. So, recently, I've joined a second gym. So now I'm doing powerlifting, but also doing calisthenics.

So one of my goals now is to be able to do a freestanding handstand, with no wall or anything. Just like a handstand, and not wobble and fall over. That feels like a really big goal right now, but I know at some point I'll be able to do that.

It's interesting that I get my energy pennies, as Becca Syme would say, from exercise, as I know you do. It's also been a lot more of a social experience, so that's been good.

It's finding these other things in our life, isn't it?Sacha: Yes, it is. I find, like as an indie author who's on the entrepreneurial side, I enjoy everything I do, and so the desire to do more of that all of the time is really strong. When that's combined with your office also being inside your house, it's extraordinarily difficult to take time off.

Even if I watch a TV show or a movie or something, or I read a book, it's still work because you can't help but deconstruct them, or go, Oh, that was a great line of dialogue,” or, “I know what's coming,” or, you know, whatever.

So I actually go back to the gym next week because my kid is still off on the summer holidays at the moment, so I don't have childcare. I am, funnily enough, we had a conversation about calisthenics because it is those things that will take me physically away from the desk, because if I don't physically move my body, apparently, I put on weight.

Joanna: And also feel worse.

You feel happier when you move.Sacha: I sleep better as well when I exercise.

Joanna: Yes, all of the above. Oh, so there's so much. I think what's so interesting is your five years was a really big shift.

Then, just from my experience, what happened was a bit of—well, why I'm very interested in your trajectory as well, is when I hit a certain number, I pretty much have stayed at that same number because I've been happy at that number. So it's almost been exactly within about 10 grand difference per year for a decade.

Sacha: Wow.

Joanna: Although every year the percentage of money coming from different things has changed, it's almost like the set point that you have in your head is like a set point for your finances where you're happy. You know, if you're not heading towards that, you push a bit harder, and if it's going well, you can maybe pull back a bit.

I feel like I'm at my financial set point, and it'll be interesting to see where you hit your set point. Although I did go through a time, and I'm sure you will, I went through a time where I was like, “Oh, I really, I need to make seven figures. Like, I need to do that,” because that was the thing that everyone was talking about. Then I was like, well, why? Like, why?

Sacha: Okay, let me justify it, though. I need to beat my dad.

Joanna: Your dad doesn't even write books!

Sacha: No, I know, but he made seven figures by a certain age, and I'm like, no, I have to be him. I have to do it when I'm younger. So like, look, is it another arbitrary financial goal? I don't know what you're talking about, okay.

Joanna: Well, this is interesting, and I talked about this a few years back around —

The type of business you have to run to make seven figures is very different to the business you have to run for multi-six. You've just seen the difference between a five-figure business and a six-figure business.

So this is the thing again, there's these growing pains at different times of your business. I think your journey is so fascinating, and thank you so much for sharing everything.

Tell us where people can find you and everything you do online.Sacha: So for Sacha, you can visit SachaBlack.co.uk or The Rebel Author Podcast. For anything Ruby, RubyRoe.co.uk or RubyRoeAuthor on TikTok.

Joanna: Fantastic. Thanks so much for your time, Sacha, that was great.

Sacha: Thank you for having me. Bye.

xx

Sacha Black discusses her transition from writing non-fiction books for authors to writing spicy sapphic fantasy romance novels. She explains how she found her true passion in writing adult fantasy romance for sapphic readers and the impact it had on her business. Sacha shares her experience of changing her pen name to Ruby Roe to write in this genre and the freedom it gave her to write authentically. She also discusses the financial and administrative challenges of running a successful indie author business, including record-keeping, tax obligations, and cash flow management. In this conversation, Joanna and Sacha discuss the financial aspects of being an author and the mindset shifts required for success. They cover topics such as personal taxes, saving for retirement, and the misconception that books will be a sufficient pension. Sacha shares her experiences of hitting financial goals and the importance of setting new goals and boundaries. They also discuss the need for rest, finding hobbies outside of writing, and the value of socializing. The conversation concludes with a reflection on the set point of financial success and the different stages of business growth.

Takeaways* Transitioning to writing in a different genre can lead to renewed passion and success in an author's business. * Choosing a pen name can provide the freedom to write authentically and explore new genres without the expectations of previous work. * Running a successful indie author business requires careful financial management, including record-keeping, tax obligations, and cash flow management. * Being aware of legal and financial responsibilities as a business owner is crucial, even if certain tasks are outsourced to professionals. Authors need to be aware of personal tax obligations and consider setting up an accounting system to save money and avoid large tax bills. * Books should not be relied upon as the sole source of retirement income, and authors should consider setting up a pension or other investments. * Mindset shifts are necessary for financial success, including letting go of the belief that more work equals more money and setting new goals beyond financial milestones. * Setting boundaries and outsourcing tasks can help prevent burnout and free up time for writing and other enjoyable activities. * Taking time off and engaging in hobbies and social activities are important for overall well-being and creativity. * Financial success has a set point, and it's important to reassess goals and priorities as the business grows and changes.

The post Pivoting Genres And Growing An Author Business With Sacha Black first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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In this solo episode, I talk about my lessons learned from 13 years as a full-time author entrepreneur. You can read/listen to previous updates at TheCreativePenn.com/timeline.

Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller, dark fantasy, horror, crime, and memoir author as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

• It takes time to pivot your author brand — and your mindset, but my dark horse is (finally) running!
• Let your dark horse run — an excerpt from Writing the Shadow by Joanna Penn
• It takes time to change your creative and business processes
• Having a (tiny) paywall makes all the difference to my happiness and mental health
• I love making beautiful books, and I love BookVault and Kickstarter for helping me make them and sell them direct
• My physical health is more important than ever, and I am now giving it more time

Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn.

Sign up for my free Author Blueprint at TheCreativePenn.com/blueprint

Buy my books for authors at www.CreativePennBooks.com and my fiction and memoir at www.JFPennBooks.com.

Sign up for my new Kickstarter: www.JFPenn.com/bloodvintage

Lessons learned from 13 years as a full-time author entrepreneurThirteen years ago, in Sept 2011, I left my day job to become a full-time author-entrepreneur. Every year since I have reflected on the journey and what I learn along the way.

My challenges change and grow along with the business and you will likely be at a different stage, but I hope you find my lessons learned useful along your own author path.

You can read all my lessons learned from previous years on my timeline so far – and remember, just like everyone else, I started out by writing my first book with no audience!

But with time and continued effort, everything is possible.

(1) It takes time to pivot your author brand — and your mindset, but my dark horse is (finally) running!Back in December 2023, over 8 months ago now, I announced I would be making a slow pivot to focus more on my J.F. Penn books.

Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words was decades in the making, and felt like my last word on the craft of writing — at least for now! I want to do more with that book as this strange time in history means examining our darker sides is more important than ever, but for now, I need to express my own shadow into my books.

I have so many stories and ideas and other types of books that are waiting to emerge from J.F. Penn brand. I have a folder in my Books drive with 22 different projects, some just initial ideas, others with research. These are stand-alones and short stories, and other books in series, and there are non-fiction books there too.

I have another folder in my Things app with nearly a thousand notes and links and things to investigate, snippets and thoughts and quotes that might become part of a story or a book. That's enough to keep me going for years, and I keep adding to these as I learn more and research and travel and think and read.

But as much as I wanted to make the shift into J.F. Penn, I struggled in the first half of the year. I started out by rewriting my Author Blueprint, which was more work than expected, so after announcing that I wasn’t doing any more books as Joanna Penn, I went and did essentially another one!

But then I got into Spear of Destiny, and started to relax a little — but it wasn’t until July when I went to the DO Lectures in West Wales that I noticed things were changing.

In the past, when people asked what I did at events or social things, I would say, ‘I’m Joanna Penn and I’m an author and podcaster, and I have a site helping writers, TheCreativePenn.’ I always talked about the self-help angle first, and I might mention I wrote fiction, but it wasn’t the first thing I talked about.

Perhaps, as I have talked about in Writing the Shadow, my fear of judgment stopped me as people certainly judge fiction writers more harshly.

But at the DO Lectures, I introduced myself as Jo and said ‘I’m an author, I write thrillers and horror, crime and dark fantasy, and some self-help.’ I flipped my script and it felt natural and right to do so.

I really started to feel like I was shifting into being J.F. Penn and that is such a relief. My dark horse is (finally) running!

If you’re read Writing the Shadow, you will know what I mean by this — but I’m going to include the short chapter here as a reminder. Your dark horse is not the same as mine, but the challenge is the same — Is your dark horse running? How can you let it run?

Let your dark horse run — from Writing the Shadow by Joanna PennAlthough much has changed over the last two thousand years, human nature remains the same. Around 370 BC, the Greek philosopher Plato composed The Phaedrus, which includes an allegory of a chariot that has helped me frame the Shadow. Perhaps it will help you, too.

Imagine a Roman chariot drawn by two horses — a white horse and a dark horse. I am the Charioteer, and I am in the race of my life.

The white horse represents my rational self, the one society sees. My good behaviour, my industry, my hard work, my productivity, my scrubbed-clean, well-mannered good girl self.

She helps others. She’s a peacemaker. She doesn’t like conflict. She says the right things, reads the right books. She needs to be liked.

My white horse trots delicately along paved roads, aware of the fences and boundaries, never needing to cross them, remaining within the lines drawn by others.

My dark horse is a wild animal, wreathed in smoke and ash and flame.

She gallops across wide open spaces, leaps obstacles, smashes through fences, and avoids the paved and cornered world.

She runs free and will destroy herself, rather than be caged.

If both horses run together in the same direction, I can fly along, whooping in delight at the speed and power. But if they become unbalanced, the chariot begins to wobble.

When my dark horse stumbles, my white horse drives us hard along the highway, never stopping for rest.

But if she dominates for too long, my dark horse rears up and runs out of control, driving us towards the cliff edge.

My white horse has often been stronger.

I’ve always worked hard, got good grades, behaved well, earned enough money to support myself, paid my taxes early.

But the more I let my white horse dominate, the more my dark one rears up unexpectedly and takes over until she exhausts herself with all the things that nice girls shouldn’t do.

When I became a writer, these two horses drove me once more.

My white horse writes non-fiction, helps others, wants to be useful, and responsibly manages a professional business. I’m grateful to have her!

My dark horse writes stories that tap into untamed darkness.

I’ve tried to muzzle her, strap her down, regulate her chaos.

But she rears her head, shakes her mane, stamps her hooves, paws the dirt.

Let me run.

(2) It takes time to change your creative and business processesI’ve been into AI since 2016 when AlphaGo beat Lee Sodol at the Chinese game of Go. That set of matches included what was considered the first ‘creative’ move by a machine, and the game subsequently changed and was reinvigorated by the new possibilities.

But there was a lot of upset as well.

Obviously there are parallels to the current upheaval due to generative AI which I’ve talked about a lot on the podcast, and also in my Patreon, so I won’t rehash all that here. You can read an overview of my approach in The AI-Assisted Artisan Author, but essentially it’s that I will use the AI tools to enhance and amplify my creativity, and help me achieve my creative and business goals.

Since using the AI tools, I feel like I’m in creative flow more often and I’m happier and laughing more, because I am having so much fun. I am turning my imagination into reality in different ways and I am so excited about the progression of what we can do next.

I got access to ChatGPT in November 2022 and have pretty much been trying all kinds of AI tools since then. Most of my covers have elements of Midjourney and DALLE now, and I work with my book cover designer, Jane at JD Smith Design to make the finished covers.

I made all these images with midjourney and/or dalle and then worked with jane (jd smith design) to make them into the finished coversI use ChatGPT and Claude.ai for writing my sales descriptions, doing my marketing plans, writing marketing copy, and coming up with ideas for images, and for book trailers, as well as creating synopses of books, movie pitch documents, and more.

I also use them for brainstorming ideas, and plot points and for enhancing the quality of my work, and for deep character POV since Claude, in particular, is great at writing from the point of view of a character with specific knowledge. As an example, I co-wrote a scene where a character explained how to test grapes for sugar content before harvesting using terminology that kind of character would know.

I also use a load of other AI-assisted tools like Descript for my podcast editing, ProWritingAid for editing, Canva for images, and more.

So you’d think I was the poster girl for AI-assisted business, right? I guess I am way ahead of some people, and yet, I want to do more and I have to catch myself sometimes and think — how can I make this better or more fun with an AI tool, rather than just defaulting to an existing (old) process?

In the last week, I have reinvented my book trailer process, using RunwayML to turn images into short video which I turned into a trailer using Canva. Watch it below or here on YouTube, or here on Instagram.

Previously, I have always used still images with Effects to zoom and pan, so I have improved my process substantially — and it was so much fun!

I am still experimenting with using the AI-powered marketing tools from Amazon and Meta, and am looking forward to when I can just give them a book and tell them to do everything on every platform on my behalf. I think most authors would love to outsource much of marketing!

We have to keep reinventing ourselves.

We have to keep trying new things, new tools, new processes, or we stagnate, and so does our business.

It has ever been the way, and it continues to be the way. It’s just surprising how long it can take to change an ingrained pattern, even with the best will in the world.

(3) Having a (tiny) paywall makes all the difference to my happiness and mental health As part of the shift outlined above, I started to focus much more on my Community at patreon.com/thecreativepenn.

I shifted to monthly billing, which is the price of buying me a coffee (or a couple of coffees) a month, and I add something new every week.

Sometimes it’s the Patron Only Q&A audio, or an interview with an industry professional, or a demo of something I am doing, like my book trailer process with Midjourney and Runway, or a video from my course archive, or the Office Hours we did recently where I demoed a load of AI stuff.

As I learn things, I share them with my Patrons. We are also having a Patron only meet-up at Author Nation in Las Vegas, and I am looking into Patron-exclusive merchandise.

I used to share a lot more about AI and futurist topics on the main feed of The Creative Penn Podcast, but I keep that more sporadic now and share much more behind the (small) paywall. This helps me because most of my Community are AI-positive or AI-curious, or at least they like my content enough to keep subscribing, so I feel safe enough to share more openly.

I used to get so much hate over the AI stuff that at times I considered leaving the internet entirely. Why bother sharing anything when the backlash was so nasty, even after I have spent so many years (16 years!) trying to help authors by sharing what I do, mostly for free.

My Community feel like my friends — as well as my fans — and I can be myself and not feel attacked.

This subscription model stream of income also helps me financially. It reflects Kevin Kelly’s iconic article on 1000 True Fans, which is about direct relationships with a small number of people rather than aiming for mass market appeal. You can make a living this way, even if the amounts are relatively small per person.

My Community at patreon.com/thecreativepenn now has 1180 people — THANK YOU Patrons!

(4) I love making beautiful books, and I love BookVault and Kickstarter for helping me make them and sell them directI love love love the creative and business possibilities of custom print options with BookVault and Kickstarter.

special edition spear of destiny – printed by bookvaultI always wanted to make beautiful books, but it just wasn’t cost-effective in the past with having to do print runs, but Kickstarter (and other crowdfunding platforms) enable this, and BookVault enables even a tiny volume of special books.

I am so grateful for these platforms as they have changed my business to be direct sales first, and unlocked a new level of creativity for me!

I've always been a visual writer, and a visual person. I take photos all the time and I love writing a deep sense of place in my books. I also appreciate Midjourney as I enjoy using it to make images and now I can turn the images in my head into reality in a way I couldn’t before. Thanks also to my designer, Jane Dixon Smith at JDSmith Design who works with me to turn those images into finished books and products.

In the last year, I have done two Kickstarters.

• October 2023 — Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words. 1059 backers, £36,454 (around US$48K)
• June 2024 — Spear of Destiny, An ARKANE Thriller #13. 313 backers, £12,536 (around US$16.5K)

On 1 October 2024, I’m launching Blood Vintage, A Folk Horror Novel on Kickstarter which will have all the custom options, plus sprayed edges. You can watch a video of the proof copy below or here on Instagram.

As much as I love reading in all the other formats, there is something wonderful about having your words in a beautiful print edition. I am hooked on making these special hardback editions now and plan to keep making them. I might even have to do my backlist too!

It’s also worth noting that when I do Blood Vintage, I will have done four Kickstarters in four different genres — travel memoir, writing craft and psychology, thriller, and horror.

This is counter to everything we have learned about the catalogue sales platforms like Amazon, but hey, I love to create all over the map and Kickstarter is a great place to do that!

(5) My physical health is more important than ever, and I am now giving it more timeI’ve always been pretty active, but I’ll be 50 in March 2025, so I’m determined to be in good shape for the decades ahead.

Longevity in any career takes stamina and when most of your job involves a desk — whether standing or sitting — you need to keep your body healthy. Creativity also benefits from exercise and movement, plus it’s fun and makes you feel good, so mental health improves too. Read Built to Move by Kelly & Juliet Starrett if you need to shock yourself into action!

The Heathy Writer, co-written with Dr Euan Lawson came out in 2018, before I hit perimenopause, and a few things have changed since then. After a few years of long-distance walking, which led to my book, Pilgrimage, I now focus primarily on building strength and flexibility.

I’ve been powerlifting for several years now, and I did my first competition last weekend. My goal was to complete three legal lifts so I could get the participant’s medal. I was thrilled to get 100kg deadlift, 50kg squat, 40kg bench press, a total of 190kg. I did get a medal, and I won my age and weight class — which is good as I was the only one in it!

Jo Penn with powerlifting medal, sept 2024 (aged 49)If you didn’t know this already, women after menopause can lose up to 1% of muscle mass per year unless they work on strength training, which is why so many old women are weak and can break bones. Read Menopausing by Davina McCall if you are not up to date on menopause research — and then (whatever age you are) go lift!

I’ve also joined a calisthenics gym and am working on handstands and exercises on the rings, as well as getting back into yoga and more flexibility and mobility. This different kind of movement is challenging my body in new ways, and more than that, I am loving the classes!

I’m having fun, and meeting new people, and I’m moving every day, as well as walking a lot. I am out of the house more, off my screens more, and working less.

As much as I love my creative and business life, it is mostly all in my head. But I am not a disembodied brain, I am not a machine or an AI. I am a human, and I have a body, and my brain is connected to that body, and my body needs to feel good and be functional in order for my brain to be happy.

My question for you is: Does your body feel good and is it functional? What could you do to improve your physical health and increase your movement in a way that benefits your creativity and mental health?

ConclusionSo here we are again! After 13 years full-time, and almost 16 years blogging and podcasting, I'm still writing, still publishing, still marketing, and still an author entrepreneur.

I did have a wobbly moment in this last year, as the drama and stress in the author world took its toll on me. I wondered if I wanted to do this anymore. I still wanted to write books, but maybe just as a hobby. I considered stepping away from the business side.

But when I looked into some other career paths, I realised how grateful I am to be able to make a living with my writing and my creativity, and how much I want to keep doing it, even as I know I will have to keep pivoting to keep my business alive.

Thanks to all of you for listening and for buying my books and backing my Kickstarters (check out Blood Vintage!). Thanks to my Patrons at patreon.com/thecreativepenn and to my corporate podcast sponsors, as well as my affiliate partners. You make this possible.

The challenges will inevitably change again in the next year, and I’ll keep sharing what I learn along the way. I hope you'll join me as I continue on the author journey!

What do you think? Do you have lessons learned from your years on the author journey? Please leave a comment, or if you've written about it elsewhere, feel free to share a link.

The post Lessons Learned from 13 Years as an Author Entrepreneur first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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What needs to go into a training manual if you are teaching physical skills? How can you focus in on your super fans and create only for them, while still making a living from multiple streams of income? Guy Windsor explains more in this interview.

In the intro, Amazon celebrates a decade of Kindle Unlimited and indie authors do really well!; Written Word Media has announced a new partnership with RetireHub, an innovative online community for retirees; Levels of author success [Draft2Digital]; Indie Writers Club; Blood Vintage book trailer and Kickstarter campaign.

Plus, Oprah's AI special [Variety]; Women using AI less than men [The Economist];
Amazon is revamping Alexa to use Anthropic’s Claude [The Verge]

Today’s show is sponsored by Findaway Voices by Spotify, the platform for independent authors who want to unlock the world’s largest audiobook platforms. Take your audiobook everywhere to earn everywhere with Findaway Voices by Spotify. Go to findawayvoices.com/penn to publish your next audiobook project.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Guy Windsor is a consulting swordsman, teacher, and author specializing in medieval and renaissance Italian swordsmanship. He runs SwordSchool and is the host of The Sword Guy Podcast.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Creating freedom with multiple streams of income
• Automating and outsourcing non-creative work
• Key aspects to consider when creating a training manual
• The importance of photo quality in print books
• Why write a book instead of produce an online course?
• Marketing a very niche genre
• Tips for building your online author store

You can find Guy at Swordschool.shop or Swordschool.com.

Transcript of Interview with Guy WindsorJoanna: Guy Windsor is a consulting swordsman, teacher, and author specializing in medieval and renaissance Italian swordsmanship. He runs SwordSchool and is the host of The Sword Guy Podcast. Today, we're talking about his book, From Your Head to Their Hands: How to write, publish, and market training manuals for Historical Martial Artists. So welcome back to the show, Guy.

Guy: Thanks, Jo. Lovely to be here.

Joanna: Yes, great to talk to you again. Now, you were last on the show back in 2021 when you talked about pivoting your business from in-person to online and scalable, which was much needed in the pandemic. So just give us an update as to how that change has gone for you, how your business looks today, and—

What are your multiple streams of income?Guy: Well, I actually made that pivot in around 2015 because I needed to get location independence so I could move my family from Finland to the UK because of elderly parents.

That was just super lucky timing because then the pandemic occurred, and we were fine because we were living off books and courses, which did really well during the pandemic. Rather than me living off in-person teaching, which I'd been doing before.

So it's blissful, honestly. The difference between if I don't show up to work, I don't get paid, and well, if I feel like taking three months off to go do this creative project or do something with my kids or whatever, I can do that, and it won't make a really big difference in the short term. It's just so freeing, which means, among other things, I can work on pretty much anything I like.

Now, you asked about multiple streams of income, and you sent me the question beforehand, so I made a list. So there's books, which are training manuals, mostly. There's also some translations and other things, which are in print, ebook, and some of them are also in audio. Then online courses.

Those are the two really big earners. The two of those together is like 90% of my income. The rest of it comes from in-person seminars, which is actually my favorite thing. I travel around all over the place teaching seminars in America and Singapore and New Zealand and wherever. It’s fantastic, but it's really, really demanding.

Then I have my own social media site called SwordPeople, which brings in some income. I have a Patreon which brings in a tiny bit of income.

I also, back in 2007, the warehouse space next door to the warehouse space we were using as a training space came on the market, so I bought it. So my students there are renting that space off me. So that's another income stream.

I also have merch, like t-shirts and whatnot, which hardly sell anything at all. So if anyone wants a really cool t shirt, I can point them in the right direction.

So like by platform, my Teachable account is the single biggest chunk of money coming in monthly. Then my wide books as an aggregate, I don't really pay attention to the different platforms there. My Shopify store would be third.

Rent on the space would be fourth. Then seminars, teaching in person, SwordPeople, and all the other stuff is sort of the tail end.

Joanna: That's great, and let's just point out that you started out by saying it was blissful. When people hear that whole list, they might be thinking, oh my goodness. How big is your team? How many hours do you work?

Just talk about how the structure of this works and how automated it is.Guy: I do all the actual creative stuff for myself, and I produce an average of, I suppose, a book a year and an online course a year, something like that.

I have an assistant who is fabulous, and she does the tedious admin stuff. She started out by doing the transcriptions for my podcast, and then she kind of took over all of the writing the show notes, naming the episodes, uploading them everywhere, getting them all in the right place at the right time.

Then she took on my newsletter as well. So I write it, but she does all the formatting, and making sure all the links are right, and all that sort of thing.

So I've outsourced as much as possible of the stuff that involves, shall we say, spreadsheets. I have an allergy to spreadsheets, so if it involves a spreadsheet, I hire a professional. Katie is excellent at spreadsheets.

I also have an accountant who does anything related to bookkeeping, and accounting, and all that sort of stuff, because that's just not what I'm good at. I sort of break out in a rash when I see a spreadsheet.

So it sounds like a lot of stuff because I've been accumulating it for 20 years. Okay, I didn't produce all this stuff in the last week. My first book came out in 2004. My first online course came out in 2016.

I started my podcast in 2020 while everyone was miserable at home and they needed a friendly sword person to come into their ear hole every Friday, just basically to make everyone feel better. So it's sort of grown bit by bit, but I don't actually work that much.

I mean, normally I've got maybe three or four hours of creative juice in me in a given day, and then I'm pretty much done. Then I sort of wander off and do some woodwork, or I go for a walk with one of my kids, or whatever. So it's little and often.

Joanna: Yes, and I think this is one of the principles of lifestyle design, business design. I think about this sometimes, I mean, maybe you do too, which is, sure, I could build a really big company and make seven figures or whatever, but…

Guy: You could, Jo. I don't think I could.

Joanna: But as in, I feel like you and I are quite similar in this way, in that we're happy in our work, but—

We don't need to scale and work harder or employ more people. Because that's not the lifestyle we're looking for.Guy: I mean, at one point, I had four people working for me in various capacities, and it didn't make my life any better. So with goodwill on both sides, that got now whittled down to just Katie. I would be lost without Katie, so we're quite clear.

So, I mean, fortunately, my assistant before Katie spent like four months as—basically what happened with her, it was great. Her name's Kate Tilton. She's an author assistant. We were working together for ages, and she basically outgrew me.

She had this utterly charming way of firing me as a client because I just wasn't going to bring in the kind of work she wanted to do. That was fine. She spent several months working with Katie to teach her the specifics of how to publish the books on all the platforms, that kind of thing.

So hopefully when Katie eventually outgrows me, as she inevitably will, she'll also train up her successor. Again, without the assistant, I think the first thing to go would be the podcast. I couldn't keep it regular.

Joanna: That's really good because something like a podcast, I mean, I have help with this show. That is outsourceable because it's kind of the same every week, the production side of it.

Let's get into the training manuals, which we're focusing on today. A lot of people do want to do training manuals. So whether, let's say they might be teaching yoga or knitting or all kinds of physical skills, and of course, you can do videos and all that kind of thing. So talk about training manuals.

What are training manuals, and what are the key aspects to consider?Guy: Well, as I see it, a training manual is a book that is intended to communicate a particular skill. It doesn't really matter what that skill is, most skills can be communicated, at least in part, through a book of some kind.

You need the regular stuff, kind of the front and back matter. If you're doing anything like martial arts, you have to have safety stuff baked in so that no one can accuse you of promoting dangerous practices.

Basically, in terms of the actual content, I'm assuming that anyone trying to write a training manual actually knows their subject already, which isn't necessarily true.

I mean, I wrote my second training manual because I wanted to learn the subject that the training manual was about. So it took me a lot longer than it would now to write the same thing because I was learning the system of early 17th century Italian rapier as I went.

So you can use the writing process as a way of learning the thing you're trying to teach. You need a set of basic principles, so your whatever general principles of your art may be.

I mean, in knitting, I have knitted maybe two things in my life, last one was probably 40 years ago. So perhaps something like “controlling your yarn and not getting it tangled” might be a principle. So whatever things that the student needs to know that will apply to everything they do from there on.

With swords, it's quite straightforward, “don't get hit.” If you get hit, it's always wrong. So that's like one simple principle.

Then you have your practical instruction, and the thing that people tend to get wrong when I've seen less well-executed training manuals, is you have to understand what is the very first thing that the person needs to know. If you're an expert in your field, that can be quite a difficult thing to figure out.

So for example, if I'm teaching you how to parry with a sword, well, a parry is a defense done against an attack. So whoever you're training with needs to know the attack. So you have to teach the attack before you teach the parry because the parry doesn't exist until the attack occurs.

Whatever the skill is, you need to figure out what the prerequisites are and make sure they go in order.I mean, the classic mistake in this area comes from Windows back in the 90s. Where there was this instruction thing, which was, “Press ctrl, alt, delete, enter, enter, to wipe your hard drive.” So someone who's just doing as they're told and haven't read the whole thing before they get stuck in.

I know this because it happened to a friend of mine, they merrily pressed control, alt, delete, enter, enter, and then was astonished when everything just disappeared.

Joanna: It wiped their hard drive!

Guy: Yes, it wiped their hard drive. Now, if they had just taken the end of that sentence and stuck it at the beginning, it would have saved an awful lot of trouble.

It's that empathy for the student and understanding what it is they need to see first that is one of the really key things about writing a good training manual, I think.

Joanna: I guess another thing is thinking about progression. So that maybe you won't do one mega mega training manual, but you might do some for beginners, some for intermediate, some for advanced, and then assuming the knowledge in the earlier one. So, I mean—

This can turn into a lot of books, right?Guy: Yes, and it's best to start with the most basic one first, for two reasons. Firstly, there are vastly more beginners than there are relatively experienced people, I mean by definition.

So the first book will have the biggest market, and those that like it and like your approach, will then want to get the next one, and the next one, and the next one. So I did this with my rapier training workbooks, which we talked about in the last interview, and now it's available.

I just got fed up with handling multiple SKUs, so I just got rid of those. Now it’s just the combined version, like the complete workbook that people get now, but it's actually made up of what was four separately published books.

Joanna: So that could be a bundle.

Guy: Absolutely.

Joanna: Okay, that's really interesting. Then you mentioned respecting the person who's going to get it, but actually testing the manual, as you said. I mean that Microsoft one, if you'd have handed it to an actual human.

I still remember the first time my mum tried to use a mouse, like a mouse with a computer. She took it to the end of the table and then said, “Where do I go now? It's about to fall off the table.” It was like, oh, you pick it up and you move it again. She didn't even know that you could do that. So we have to assume people don't have a clue, basically.

Guy: Yes, and I have access to a lot of beginners because my job is teaching people how to fight with swords. So I can get my training manuals tested by the actual target audience.

I think, honestly, for any kind of pedagogical work, it's a really good idea to be able to test how it works in the real world.I mean, I remember back in 2005, a couple of guys in Singapore had come across my first book, The Swordman's Companion, in a bookshop, back in the old days when people went to bookshops. They emailed me with a question, and we got into an email back and forth, and they eventually came to Finland to train with me for a month.

So I got to see them doing the drills from the book, having only learned them from the book. I just remember, this was before YouTube was even invented, so there wasn't really much in the way of video sharing. So they'd never seen the motion. They'd only seen the pictures.

As a result, they were moving in this sort of stop-start-stop-start way, because that's what they'd seen.

Joanna: It's hard not to do that in a book because they're still pictures.

Guy: It is very hard. Which is why, I mean these days, now that the technology has caught up —

I create videos for any motion that I'm trying to teach, and I link to that in the book.So you produce the video, you throw it up on Vimeo, for example, create a redirectable link to that video—in case you ever want to change the video, you don't have to then change the book—and then you put that redirectable link, something easy to type, into the book itself, and maybe even create a QR code.

Joanna: With the photos in the book, talk a bit about that.

Of course, they need to be consistent, they need to be professional level. There's all kinds of things that go into that.

What are the challenges for preparing photos and also for putting them into the book, around costing?Guy: I mean, I cheat, generally. I have students who are serious amateur photographers who honestly enjoy spending a whole weekend doing sword pictures for a book.

So, if possible, get a professional is like the best advice, or an enthusiastic amateur. The thing is, a picture that looks great on your phone may print appallingly badly when it's converted to black and white and thrown into a book.

So for any of my books that have lots of photographs, which is quite a few of them, I mean, the main tips that my photographer gave me are, you want the camera as far away as you can reasonably get, so you have this kind of flat focus. If the camera is too close, you get this slight fish eye effect.

So you want the camera as far away as it can reasonably get if you're shooting action shots. It's different if you're shooting like close ups for a craft thing, that has a whole separate like macro lenses and whatnot.

Basically you need to get the right focus so that the image is as flat as you can get it so that you don't get any distortion. You want to be shooting in as high a resolution as you can get. It's going to end up being a 300 DPI TIFF file, that's what the printers usually want.

That means, however it's cropped down and modified, it will need to end up as 300 DPI. Anything less than that, you're going to get a grainy picture.

So, I mean, the last really photo heavy book I did was the second edition of The Duellist's Companion. I ended up spending nearly two grand on, not even layout, just getting the photos we had made print ready. It's hard.

If you're doing this on a shoestring, you might want to think about not doing a print book if there's lots and lots of pictures. You know, get loads of people to like the ebook and the PDF, and then use that money to get the pictures sorted out for a print book.

Joanna: Well, even on that, many people don't realize this, but publishing on Amazon, they take a delivery charge. Most of the time it's very, very small because most of us just have text-based books, but if people don't get their images right in their EPUB, it can be massive. So you could end up losing all your royalty.

So if you are going to do an ebook that people can read on a big tablet or whatever with all the images, then again, I think Vellum does it, I'm sure Atticus does it, but formatting those pictures appropriately so they're high res. Don't just do it yourself and then assume it's fine.

So this is the thing, I feel like people just think that they can stick photos in everywhere and it won't impact cost, but it is a huge cost.

How did you decide how many pictures in the book versus text, and balancing that with the cost of the final product?Guy: Okay, I don't consider the cost at all because I don't require any specific project to break even. If enough projects are making enough money, I can use that money to make, for example, this book. I mean, the second edition Duellist's Companion has made its cost back, but I don't think it's made me any money.

I don't actually care because it's a book that needs to be there in my body of work. It needed updating because it came out in 2006, so it was really bit long in the tooth. I didn't have an ebook version of it, I didn't have a hardback version of it. So now there's a full-color hardback, which is pricey.

Joanna: How much?

Guy: I charge, I think it's 55 quid for it.

Joanna: Okay, so it really is only for the super fans.

Guy: Right, yes. Some people buy it, and some people don't. If they can't afford that, or they don't want it, they can get the paperback, which is about 30 quid. Then my eBooks are, I think, 10. Again, I'm only talking about on my Shopify store. I don't even look at what the wide thing does.

Joanna: So you do put them wide? Like, for example, Ingram does that, right?

Guy: Yes, so I have hardbacks through Ingram, paperbacks through Amazon and Ingram, ebooks through Amazon and all the platforms. Mostly through Draft2Digital, but I do have my own KDP account and my own Kobo account, but it's super wide.

The color hardback was too expensive to do through Ingram, but on Bookvault, it was fine. So the color hardback is only available on my store.

So people who find the regular hardback on wherever they find it, in the blurb, in the sales copy, it should say—I think Katie did this just a couple of weeks ago—”You can get the full color version of this at Swordschool.shop.”

So people who want the hardback and want the full color, they can get it for pretty much the same price on Swordschool.shop as they can get the black and white hardback anywhere else. Like, Bookvault is really good for color printing.

Joanna: Yes, they're excellent. Just on the why, I mean, you said you don't really mind so much if it doesn't break even, but most people are looking at this as more of making more money. I was thinking about this, like just a fundamental question—

Why do a book? Why not just do a course when it's a physical skill?Guy: Oh, I mean, the main reason is that some people prefer books. I mean, you may say, like theoretically, a video course is better for teaching skills involving movement. You're probably right, but there are some people who simply don't like them. They prefer books.

So the books are for the people who don't like the online courses. Also —

If you're establishing yourself as an authority, then authors have authority, and online course producers don't.Joanna: I totally agree. Isn't it weird? It's a weird thing, but it's true.

Guy: Also, books are spreadable and shareable in a way that online courses aren't. So I mean, those guys in Singapore came across my book in a bookshop, and that changed many things. I mean, I was in Singapore just this year teaching a seminar because those guys found that book in a bookshop.

You might go to somebody's house and see one of my books on the shelf, and go, “Oh, that's interesting.” Then they go, “Oh, I'm not really into swords and stuff anymore. I'm letting you borrow it.”

So they'll take it away, and they'll read it, and they'll go, “Oh, this is quite nice.” Then they'll come to my website and go, “Oh, I actually quite fancy some of that,” and off they go.

So books are sticky, and they're durable. Particularly physical books, they have a certain resonance and heft. The thing is, personally, my house is full of books, but I hardly use online courses at all because I don't really like them.

Joanna: Yes, I buy a lot of courses and end up not doing them all. I know people listening do the same.

Just on the hardback high-quality print books, I heard some stat, I can't remember where it was, but that hardback books can go through seven pairs of hands over time, either gifted, or second hand, or whatever.

Whereas, and in fact, many second hand bookshops won't take the crappy paperbacks because they don't—not crappy, but just in general, paperbacks don't last so long so that they would rather have nice hardbacks. I did want to ask— How did your book end up in a book shop in Singapore?

Guy: It was my first book. It was published by an American publisher that is now defunct. Basically, this is actually an interesting story about formatting, if there can be an interesting story about formatting.

A colleague of mine called Christian Tobler, he is to German medieval martial arts what I am to Italian medieval martial arts. He had a similar book to mine, The Swordman's Companion, coming out in the same year. His was on the German medieval stuff, mine was on the Italian medieval stuff.

He insisted on A4 US Letter size, quite a big workbook, because it would be better for the pictures. He was completely right. It's a better product.

My publisher had a bit more leverage with me because it was my first book. He said, well, we should go with six by nine. So I said, okay, and we did.

Barnes and Noble picked up 50 copies of my friend's book, and they picked up 600 of mine, just because of the format. It has nothing to do with our reputations because he actually had previous books out, and I didn't.

Barnes and Noble wanted 600 copies of my paperback, and they sold them through relatively quickly, which was nice. So it was a Barnes and Noble in Singapore, which just happened to have one or two copies, because Barnes and Noble put in a chunky order.

Joanna: That is another argument for standard formatting. It would have been cheaper for the publisher to produce those copies, so Barnes and Noble would have seen a cheaper price as well. Then they don't fit so well on certain shelves, and all of that kind of thing.

Okay, so I just want to mention audio, because you did say you had some audio, but of course—

Training manuals don't really work for audio, right?Guy: Generally not. I mean, From Your Head to Their Hands doesn't rely on pictures, and I'm not like illustrating how to type. So that body of knowledge, that skill set, doesn't rely on visuals. So there is an audiobook of that.

My audiobooks are basically anything that is not like physical practice stuff. So I have a book called The Theory and Practices of Historical Martial Arts, that's available as an audiobook.

My current favorite is a colleague of mine in Italy who is a trained musical theater performer. We had lunch in Florence in January, and I had this genius idea, which I thought was a genius idea, which was I would get her to read this medieval manuscript on martial arts written in 1480s by a guy called Philippo Vadi.

It's quite short. I got her to read the Italian as an audiobook, and I read my translation of it. So there's an audiobook which is this beautiful Italian voice reading beautiful Italian. Then there's my kind of clunky workaday English voice reading clunky workaday English.

For, I guess, 99.9% of listeners, that's of no interest whatsoever, but I mean, I told one of my students about it, and she literally got goosebumps. So for my niche, something like that is just catnip. So it's totally worth doing.

Joanna: Exactly. I think you definitely prove the point about nicheing down.

You have a good business based on something very, very niche.Guy: Well, the thing is, if it's very specific, it's easy to market.

Joanna: Yes.

Guy: If I say, Jo, I'm writing a book about this specific medieval manuscript which covers this specific style of fighting, are you interested? Yes, no. For you, that's an easy no. You don't have to think about it. Am I right?

Joanna: Well, exactly. I must say, I've never bought any of your books, Guy!

Guy: That's fine. I don't mind because I didn't write them for you.

I know who I wrote them for, and the people I wrote them for really like them. It's easy for me to find those people because I can describe what the book is super specifically.

The same is true for online courses. I don't spend any time fussing about the sales copy on my sales page because the people I'm marketing to, if I say, “I've got this online course about medieval dagger combat.” It's an easy hell yes for some people, and it's an easy no thanks for everyone else.

So the sales copy isn't even really relevant. It's just there to fill out the page a bit, to give people an idea to make sure that they understand what is going to be on the course, what is not going to be on the course, what they can expect.

So it's just to give a clear picture of what a course contains and some sample videos in case they're not sure. Then they know, and I don't have to plug the value.

Joanna: Yes, on that, let's talk about marketing then. Obviously you have this direct store. Obviously you have an email list.

Is it mainly SEO because people who are interested in this go searching?Guy: I don't pay any attention to SEO whatsoever,

Joanna: You naturally do SEO, basically.

Guy: Yes, I have natural SEO. I mean, the WordPress version that I'm using has this sort of SEO score. The professional who built my website cares about things like SEO, and so you have this like SEO score when you write a blog post, and mine is usually under 15% because I just don't care.

Again, most people in the early days found me because I was running a school, and I was advertising and putting up flyers in martial arts shops, and doing demos at games conventions, things like that. So word spread, and people brought their friends, and so the school did fine from the very get go.

Then when the first book came out, that sort of established my international reputation, and people started hiring me to go abroad to teach in these places. As the more books come out, if you're interested in my topic, I am very hard to avoid.

Joanna: That's what I mean about natural SEO. I mean, even my site, The Creative Penn, I have also been pretty similar. I have put content up, but when it's around the same topic, you naturally rank over time for things, and if people start trusting you and linking to you.

Do you do any paid marketing at all now?Guy: I have done, and it was always at best break even, and usually a giant waste of money. I mean, the first bit of paid advertising that seemed to be working was I did Amazon ads for a bit.

At one point I was spending 500 quid a month on Amazon ads. I thought, that's a lot of money, why don't I just turn it off and see what happens? So I turned it off, and three months later my sales were the same.

Joanna: It's a good experiment.

Guy: It was a great experiment. It saved me a fortune. The thing is, sometimes you type a search term into Google, for example, and let's say you're too lazy to click on ebay.com. So you just put eBay and hit go, and eBay pops up.

If you're looking for eBay, if eBay is paying for ads for their own name, then they're wasting their money. This is established by an economist who, I think, saved eBay hundreds of millions.

So when your stuff arrives at the top of the search when people type in normal search terms anyway, there's no sense paying for advertising.

Honestly, good advertising is a spreadsheet game. You have to have analytics and figure out which ads are performing, and turn some on and turn some off, and tweak the amount of money you're paying on this. It's horrible.

So I've hired people to do it, and again, they're all competent, but the only one I've ever had who I would consider hiring again, the thing that made him different is he would work for a relatively small fixed fee and then a percentage of sales.

Joanna: That's very rare.

Guy: Yes, it is very rare. The thing is, if the product is advertising, I think that should be the minimum. Really, it should be the standard.

Joanna: That's not the reality of the market. That's old information. So for the last year, I've been running only Amazon auto ads, and this will work for you as well because you're so specific.

So on my top selling books, which are How to Write a Novel—this is non-fiction only, by the way—How to Write Non-Fiction, and How to Make a Living With Your Writing. They're like my top selling books.

So I just put an auto ad, which is all you do is select the book and you give it a budget, and then the Amazon algorithm does everything else. I check it once a month, and that's it.

Guy: Okay, but you're still giving money to Jeff Bezos, who has enough.

Joanna: Yes, but I'm getting more back. So I have found that just doing a basic level. Also, let's face it, I'm in a much more competitive niche than you are because there's a lot of books on how to write a novel.

So for me to keep my books higher up, then I need to do something. I just decided that I want to have something on Amazon, because now I don't focus on Amazon, I focus on my direct store and all of that. So I just have that kind of running in the background. I wanted to make sure people listening knew that—

It doesn't have to be a spreadsheet game. I do not do that at all with Amazon ads.Guy: Fair enough. Still, basically, I'm not willing to make Jeff even richer to maybe get a few more sales I don't care about because the only people I care about are my people.

So the people on my mailing list, the people who listen to my podcast, the people who are on my Swordschool platform, the people who show up to my seminars, the people are already buying my books. Those are my people, and I will do anything for them. I mean, I'll write them whatever book they want.

Someone who finds a book of mine on Amazon when they weren't specifically looking for me, they're probably not my person yet. Now, if they buy the book and they like it, they may come onto my platform and become one of my people, but until that happens, I don't care.

I am not interested, because there are far too many people out there who may or may not like my stuff, who may or may not find my stuff. I have all my books out there to be found, and I think of Amazon as an outreach project.

Joanna: Yes, and I think it's a good attitude to focus on your people, and I do that now a lot more with my Patreon, for sure.

We're almost out of time. So I do also just want to come back on that direct store. So you've got Swordschool.shop, and you have, as we mentioned, all these books and products. A lot of authors now want to start selling direct. You've been doing it for a while.

What are your top tips for authors who might want to build their own store?Guy: Well, do it, obviously, because it doesn't cost very much, and it's kind of fun, and you'll learn a lot doing it. If you want to actually sell books, the easiest way—well, easy is the wrong word—he most reliable way, I think, is have a list. It's the classic, have a newsletter.

My friend Hugh Hancock told me this in 2015. He said, “Guy, the money is in the list.” He was absolutely right. You start with five friends on your email list, maybe, but you need to get the people who are interested in what you have to say to interact with you directly.

Then when you have the next book for them, you can simply tell them, and a chunk of them will just go and buy it. They'll buy it off the platform that you particularly send them to.

I mean, I've been fielding emails for 20 years now from people saying, “Guy, I want to buy your book. Where do you get the most money if I buy it?” The people who care, really care, and those are my people. Now I can just say, well, go to Swordschool.shop, please.

Now I actually have a really good answer for them, because until Bookvault integrated with Shopify, I had direct ebook sales and direct course sales. That integration is the game changer that means I can focus all of my attention on that one place. Most of my people prefer paper, so most of my sales are paperbacks.

Joanna: Okay, that's really interesting.

You mentioned merch briefly and said that wasn't doing very well.Are you just cutting that out completely? Is that not something that's worked? I mean, I haven't even done it yet.

Guy: It's sitting on my store, and every now and then somebody buys a t-shirt, but it's extremely rare. I don't mind. It's again, it's one of those things. Like some of the books I've written, maybe 10 people bought them when they came out, and now, five years later, there's maybe 100 sales a year or whatever, and it's finding its audience.

It doesn't cost me anything to have the merch sitting there on Shopify because I use, I think it's called Printful. Shopify integrates with them, and so when someone orders a t-shirt, it's printed and shipped. So you don't have to hold any stock.

So it doesn't cost me anything to keep it there. So I'm just going to leave it there until either it picks up, or I don't know, maybe one day I'll just stop it, or start actually promoting it, or I don't know.

Joanna: I'm struggling with that side of things. I had an interview with Alex Kava earlier this year, and she said something which made a lot of difference, which was that you don't have to have the merchandise selling all the time.

So you can say, right, for the next two weeks, I'm selling this print run of… I've just ordered some creative badges from a site, and I just got it, and I'm like, I love these, but I can't do them at the quality I like with print on demand.

So I was thinking I would say, okay, these are available, everybody order. Then it's closing, then I can put my kind of print run in. So that freed me a little bit from thinking that everything has to be evergreen print on demand.

Guy: Sure, but is the fulfillment automated?

Joanna: No, but that's the thing. This would be for a specific event, like a Kickstarter or something else where you're doing a special event. This was a more eventful thing.

Guy: I can see the value of that. I am allergic to packing and shipping and printing out labels.

Joanna: Oh, me too.

Guy: That's not a bad idea. You can probably do that even with the print on demand stuff, you can just turn it off.

Joanna: Yes, turn it on and off.

Guy: Then make an event out of turning it on again and see if anyone goes and buys it. It basically gives you a reason to mention it in the newsletter again.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. Although, to be fair, I'm waiting for Bookvault to integrate a lot more products.

Guy: Stickers. We need stickers.

Joanna: Well, they do have Photobubble, another business that they have. I'm like, well, if you start doing this, that and the other. I did try Printful, and I got some of the stuff, and I was like, oh, this is not making me enough profit to be worth it. Obviously, you know, there's potential returns. I wanted to do mugs, and it was too painful.

Guy: Okay, I don't do returns, and I'm not shy about putting decent prices on things. So, like, my hardbacks are like 45 quid normally, and my paperbacks are 30. I'm selling a book that people want, it'll help solve a problem for them, and they'll be working out of it for a long time. Honestly, it's cheap at that price.

Joanna: Yes, and no one else is doing it.

Guy: Right, and competing on price is a great way to turn into Walmart or die.

Joanna: Or turn into like Amazon KU, I mean. Okay, so we are out of time.

Where can people find you, and your books, and your podcast online?Guy: Well, they can go to SwordSchool.com and they can find everything there. So if listeners are interested in From Your Head to Their Hands, I've created a discount code on Swordschool.shop.

So if you put JOANNAPENN, with a double n, into the discount field, you'll get 30% off the ebook of From Your Head to Their Hands. So Swordschool.shop or Swordschool.com, and JOANNAPENN is the code.

Joanna: Is that all one word and lowercase?

Guy: All one word, and you can put it in all caps. It's probably the easiest.

Joanna: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for that, and thanks so much for your time, Guy. That was great.

Guy: Thanks, Jo. Lovely talking to you.

The post Self-Publishing Training Manuals And Focusing On Your True Fans With Guy Windsor first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How can you sell a fiction experience rather than just selling a story? How do our personal obsessions arise in our books, whatever the genre? David Viergutz shares his thoughts in this episode.

In the intro, the best marketing investments for authors [Self Publishing Advice]; Abundance mindset for authors [KWL Podcast]; Written Word Media have now announced direct sales links in their email newsletters.

Plus, Redefining a profession [Seth Godin]; Achieve more with Gen AI [Masterclass]; My thoughts on the Draft2Digital survey on AI licensing; My book, Artificial Intelligence, Blockchain, and Virtual Worlds; Spear of Destiny out now, and Blood Vintage: A Folk Horror Novel.

Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

David Viergutz is a disabled army and law enforcement veteran and the author of over 20 horror, dark fantasy, and thriller novels. He also hosts The Nightmare Engine Podcast.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• The similarities and differences between dark fantasy and horror
• Why horror is the genre of hope
• Religious elements in horror
• Multiple streams of income and selling wide
• The mindset shift to selling direct
• ScareMail — creating a unique fiction experience
• The behind the scenes work involved in selling a physical product
• Building your email list through your e-commerce store
• How to market your store for direct sales

You can find David at DavidViergutz.com

Transcript of Interview with David ViergutzJoanna: David Viergutz is a disabled army and law enforcement veteran and the author of over 20 horror, dark fantasy, and thriller novels. He also hosts The Nightmare Engine Podcast. So welcome to the show, Dave.

David: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Joanna: Oh, I'm looking forward to talking to you today. First up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and self-publishing.David: Sure, I think my story is probably pretty similar to a lot of authors out there. We just had this dream very young that we were going to write books and stand in front of a crowd in Barnes and Noble, and there'd be all these people flocking to meet us.

So we start writing with this dream, and I think a lot of authors, they continue that dream. Then for me, I kind of fell off. So for about 15-20 years, I didn't write anything. I was focused on career and military and that sort of thing.

Eventually, I actually got hit with an ad for a popular publishing course, and it kind of opened my eyes. I was like, wait, there's other options. It doesn't have to be the pipe dream of a traditional contract and that sort of thing.

So I started exploring it, and I was a personal trainer at the time, I had that business going. Basically, I wrote my first book, and I was hooked. I realized I could write. I could write anytime I wanted.

I could learn how to write better, it wasn't a talent. I was told by a teacher a long time ago, like, you have to be born with talent, you can't learn this. I'm like, wow, way to crush my little dreams.

Yes, I learned, and I started writing, and I started studying, and I went all in on writing. I sold my fitness business and I joined this community, this self-published community. It's just brilliant, and people are so kind.

I tell every author I can meet, every time we talk, I say thank you for being a part of this community, for making it what it is. I came from fitness and its cutthroat over there, and it was not making me happy.

Now I get to do things that I love. I get to reach people directly. I get to be creative, and it didn't feel like fitness was very creative.So l wrote my first novel, I think, in probably about a month, month and a half. Second one came out a few months after that. Third one, just a little bit faster than that. That was about four and a half, about five years ago. I've written 23 at this point.

I started in dark fantasy, realized it wasn't for me, and went into horror, and have pretty much stayed there. I wrote a couple outside the genre. I wrote some thrillers and crime thrillers. With a law enforcement background, it is a lot of fun.

So yes, I'm fully seated in horror now, that's where my heart is, and that's where I love to be. In general, I just love this community. So I'm going hard on it, on horror, and I don't plan on quitting anytime soon.

Joanna: That's great. A few things to come back on. So in fact, you and I were talking about this before the recording, about dark fantasy and horror, and the lines are pretty blurred, I think. For example, with vampire novels, some can be horror, some can be dark fantasy.

Where do you draw the line between dark fantasy and horror?David: I remember asking this question of myself, because I'm like, man, maybe I need to rebrand. When things weren't going great, maybe I need to rebrand under dark fantasy to see if it might sell a little bit better.

So I started kind of examining these lines, and I said, well, in fantasy, the hero can be a hero, and he can solve the problem. Versus in horror, what makes it horrible is that we're just trying to survive, we're just trying to make it. It's about humans having a human response to something that is otherworldly.

Versus like dark fantasy, where you can have a hero dealing with something otherworldly, but he handles it in a fantastical matter. He has a chance, right, through magic, or through power, through spells, and through strength. In horror, the hero is just trying to survive.

I think that's more related to kind of what we deal with on a daily basis, you know, for our lives right now, or is it more dark fantasy? I'm like, man, it's definitely more in the horror if you kind of take a look at what's going on, and we just have to handle things in a human way.

So I just stuck with that. I'm like, if my characters are doing things the way humans do, then I would probably say that that's a horror novel. If there's magic and power and spells like that, I'd kind of lean more towards dark fantasy.

Joanna: It definitely blurred. I mean, on your website, you say, “I only write what scares me to create horror that stays with you.” I like that. I mean, that's your definition.

I was thinking of what I'm writing at the moment, a folk horror novel, Blood Vintage. Folk horror is quite a specific genre and quite a specific feel. It's got supernatural elements and organic elements, which I'm really fascinated with, but it's very, very different to something that might be, as you say, more human horror.

It's got elements of human horror, but obviously, some of these more supernatural angles are different. Many people don't even understand why we love this genre.

Why do you think we love horror, and readers of horror love it?David: Yes, and I love asking that question. I think that question is the most fun to answer because people look at us as, you know, as horror writers, and like, what's wrong with you?

People are starting to understand that horror can be fun, that thrill. I think it's safe thrills for some people. It could be therapeutic. It's fun to imagine the what ifs, and then be kind of safe from that in the real world.

Horror is also a level of escapism. There's escapism in it, just like we would have in any other novel, except for us, it's just kind of scary and thrilling. So, I mean, I think people are still looking for a good story.

I think people are still looking for maybe a story they can relate to with their fears. I mean, that's the most basic human desire and basic human feeling is just fear. Fear and love is closely related, but fear is just so raw.

We can all experience it, no matter what language we speak, how old we are, we can all experience fear. So there's some connectivity there. I think horror just brings people down to a very basic human level, and says, hey, we can all kind of join in on this and experience it.

So horror, for me, it's that human connection. I think that's the same reason people like romance is because there's human connections. It's all about the human connection. It's all about the relationships. So horror can do that for us too.

Joanna: Yes, and also perhaps the monsters in the bed—or under the bed, or in the bed—as kids, there were sort of monsters that were hiding. We need those monsters. We need to keep tackling those monsters. Those are the things that come up over and over again in our books.

Are there themes that you return to over and over again?David: Yes, I'm a religious person. I don't fail to acknowledge that in my stories. There's always some sort of religious overtone that's very important to me, and so I try to include that. I don't necessarily have it as the forefront of things, but I think it plays a role of just having faith in general.

I like to say that horror is actually the genre of hope, and people look at me sideways when I explain that. I say, well, it is, because without this great terror, right, this sense of awfulness that nothing can solve this problem, there can't be great hope. You have to have it.

So I think a lot of characters want to hope for things to be all right. So I look for that type of type of theme where it's like, man, what can my characters hope for? What can they return to that wasn't how it was before they encountered this thing? So I try to bring them back to that.

I like a lot of superstition. I bring a lot of superstition in. I've been writing a lot of short stories lately, and a lot of them have to do with like weird stuff. I'm like, can I make a horror short story about the superstition about walking under a ladder? Or a broken mirror?

I like to bring in folklore, stuff like Roanoke, The Lost Colony of Roanoke. How terrifying is that about what happened there? Then the one thing that was written on the fence post or whatever. I like to bring in stuff that's really happened and then throw a twist on it. I think people can relate to that.

Joanna: Yes, it's interesting. The folklore, I am deep into English pagan folklore right now. It's like, seriously, this is so weird. There's some really good stuff over here in the UK as well. Just on the religion because I'm pretty obsessed with religion myself, Midnight Mass—

Did you like Midnight Mass on Netflix?David: I have not seen it. Maybe that's a crime. I'm going to write it down because my wife and I are always looking for something scary to watch. So Midnight Mass, I got it right here.

Joanna: Oh, I think it's genius. It is vampires, but it is a really interesting idea around religion and the isolated community, and all of that sticks in my mind. If you do watch it, the hymn singing will really get you.

David: Now I'm excited.

Joanna: Yes, you've got to do that. I mean, this is the thing, I think when people don't read horror, they assume it's just one thing. Like, they assume slasher gore, right. They assume the movie Scream. That's what people think, or like chainsaws or whatever.

That's not what I write. That's not what I read. To me the supernatural stuff, the things that are written about in the Bible or in other books of faith, I mean, these are the things that are pretty scary, right?

David: I mean, if you think about the Bible, and just this one, just pull pulling one text, we're talking about mass Armageddon. We're talking about flooding of the entire planet. We're talking about people turning to pillars of salt.

I mean, there's hope in it, sure, of course, the great text. But also, at the same time, you think about some of the stuff that happened. I mean, talking about Cain and Abel, and then the things that were required of Abraham and his son, and it's like, these are horror stories.

[Some of the Bible] would be classified as horror, and I think a lot of people forget that.Joanna: Yes, they just read the nice bits.

David: Then you get the other side of it. They love to read Revelations and everything that happens, and they just focus on that. There's so much in between.

I mean, I've read through quite a few religious texts. I won't go into them all, there's quite a few, but just pieces of it, and there's so much similarity between people seeing, like, you said, the positive things. They're seeing all the positive things.

Then, also, they don't really talk about what's happened. They kind of gloss over the fact that she turned to a pillar of salt, or, hey, this guy was thrown into a lion's den. It's like, these are not cheerful things, but I think we just kind of gloss over it.

It's kind of akin to real life. I mean, real life terror happens every day, but we just walk past it, and we just keep moving, and we see the positive. Oh, you get to do this today, but, oh, look, there's a car wreck right there. When you really think about a car wreck, they're not good. That's a horror story.

If you think about King too, I love King, specifically for this thing, I call it The King Method. I wrote about it my thesis. I got an MFA, and I got to study hard, and that was a lot of fun. So I call it The King Method.

The King Method: Take a bunch of people, and you smash them into a room together, and then you force them to deal with each other for a little bit, and then you force them to deal with something on the outside.So perfect example is Cujo. The whole thing takes place in a car with a mother and her kid, and then there's just this rabid dog. The terror does not come from the dog, the terror comes from the fact that that car is heating up. It's like, wow. Then you realize like, man, the dog is just there.

In the end, it's the mother and her child that are experiencing this real horror. So when you start thinking about it, it's all around us. You know, it's all around us. It's every day, and we just kind of keep going past going past it.

Joanna: It's so funny because you take The King Method there from that book. Obviously, he's written so many books, you can take anything. Whereas for me, The Stand and It, to me, are the completely, almost other worldly books. I mean, The Stand is my favorite. It's the iconic book for me, good versus evil horror. The end, it's not hopeful.

I revisit that book many, many times. I mean, it's still a group of people in a situation where bad things happen, but the supernatural elements are what I come back to. It's so interesting, you picked a book there that is your angle on horror, and I'm picking books that are my angle.

Yet, he manages to write across such a range that we are all encompassed in his writing. I mean, you did an MFA, and they allowed you to do King.

Do you think King is a modern classic?David: Yes. I mean, he's got to be. I mean, partially, he was stood up by the publishing companies to be that way. When you've got that many works out there, he's that well-renowned.

What I think makes a classic is, who's impacted? If you've got the biggest impact—I would put JK Rowling in there, you can put George RR Martin in there. These are modern classics because of the reach and the impact.

It's like he's his name alone is where the impact is, not necessarily across the book itself. Kind of the way Shakespeare is, its name itself is recognition. Poe was the same way.

When you think about King, like one of my favorite books is his lesser known books, and that's The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon. That's my absolute favorite of all his books. It's actually a novella.

People are like, what, of all books, that one? I'm like, yes, go read it and you'll understand, because it's just a girl lost in the woods. I mean, I'll leave it there, but that's the premise of it. It's so simple, and I think the most terrifying stories are the most simple ones.

I also, on occasion, will teach undergraduate English. One of the things that I'll teach my students is about going that extra level of terror. I think that extra level terror is not, “Hey, my kid's home alone and something's happened to him.” That's not the terror.

The terror comes from, “Hey kid's home alone, and then you get arrested, and there's something terrible happening.” Now the person you're trying to explain that, “Hey, my kid's alone, something terrible is happening to him,” they don't believe you. That's the terror right there.

It comes from that situation, it doesn't come from the fact that the kid's just there alone. It's that that person who's supposed to be there to save the day, to be the hero, to be the dark fantasy hero that runs over there and strikes the monster down, you can't. So you've got to handle it a human way.

Joanna: Yes, I think that is interesting. For more horror, people should go over to The Nightmare Engine Podcast, which has got some great interviews in.

I did want to talk to you about direct sales because when you pitched me, you said in your email, “I do abysmal numbers on Amazon,” but you are now doing very, very well with direct sales and other streams of income. So just give us an overview.

What are your multiple streams of income?David: Sure, so product first. That's always where I'm at. I have a subscription called The Nightmare Writers. I deal a lot in physical products. I believe the US mail system is my greatest friend.

I ship out these Nightmare Writer cards when they join my subscription, and I give up a little bit of creative freedom, and my readers get to vote on short stories every month. I compile them into a novella, and then they get that as well. Then that gets generated for audio, and that goes up on YouTube.

So I've got YouTube AdSense going for that. Then I've got The Nightmare Writers, which is my subscription, and there's all kinds of other perks too.

Then, of course, I have direct sales through bundles and print books. I've got my terror box, which is two mystery novels of mine. Then a cool associated swag and merch, and that gets shipped out, and there's all kinds of bonuses in there too.

Then I've got my bread and butter ScareMail. So that's a letter service, and I know you want to talk about that a lot. So it's my letter service, it's an annual subscription.

Joanna: Are you wide with all your normal sales?

David: Yes, and I have no idea how much money I make there because I haven't checked it in however long, and I don't really care. Same thing with Amazon. It's there, but it doesn't really do anything for me anymore. I'm on Shopify, and that's where all my focus is.

Joanna: When did you shift your focus to direct sales?David: Only six months ago. I had been considering going direct for a very long time, and I finally pulled the trigger because I realized that, hey, this isn't sustainable for me. I don't like not knowing my customers. I've been doing everything I can to try and gather customer data off my email list.

I used to purchase Facebook ads to get people's email addresses onto my email list, and run them through that, and then try and sell them on the back end. I'd gather as much customer data as I could and just try and reach them on a personal level. It was just so tough. I couldn't figure anything out about them.

Amazon wouldn't show you who your customers are, of course. I was always chasing that rank, and that just didn't do anything for me. I got burnt out with it, and Amazon was not giving me any love.

I did a test with my co-author, Boris. He's doing very well, and he does very well organically through Amazon. He puts a book up and it shoots up to about between 5,00 and 10,000 just kind of sits there.

So we did a test where we attached my name to his name, and we wrote a book together and launched it, just like we would normally. We put a lot of ad spend behind it, and it tanked, and it tanked.

So I said, well, maybe it's associated with my account, maybe it's my books. Either way, if Amazon's not going to give me any help, then I don't need to be pinned down to Amazon. That was my point where I said, okay, I'm going direct.

I was already starting to go direct through paperbacks, doing mostly paperback sales. I do a lot of in-person markets. I do local markets, those are always very fruitful for me, and I love it.

I get to meet readers where they are, I ask readers for the email addresses right there on the spot. Before they even buy the book, I say let me get your email address.

So my shift was gradual, but it was coming eventually. I've never really liked the model, the KU model. I understand that people do enjoy it, but it's just not a risk that I'm willing to take.

Joanna: This is what's so interesting, and people don't believe me anymore either when I say, look, I really don't even look.

I do publish wide, but my focus is on Kickstarter, my focus is on Shopify and Patreon. These are the places that I'm focused on.David: I guess for me, Amazon, Kobo, Apple, and Ingram, and all these other things, these are almost lead-gen.

I do make decent money on these other platforms, but they're almost bringing a smaller group of those people to my platforms, and that's kind of where my focus is.

Joanna: That attitude shift to me is so important because otherwise you're trying to keep your fingers in too many pies, I guess.

David: I mean, it's got to be the decision that you're like, look, this may be harder than just put a book on Amazon, run some ads, and hope the organic will do the rest of the work for you, hope the algorithm works for you.

It's more difficult, it's more time consuming, but in the end, there's a security there that I have. If I ever went to somebody, and this is just kind of from a business perspective, but if I ever went and tried to get my company evaluated, right now, I can be evaluated.

I can be evaluated because I can tell you exactly how much my customers are worth, how much they've purchased, how many there are. I can tell you how often I get new ones, what my expenses are, I can tell you all that.

If you went and did that and your focus was only on KU, and you said, “I want an evaluation for my company,” they'd look at you sideways. You'd be like, oh, I make $8,000 a month. Well, that's fine, but how many customers do you have? Well, I don't know.”

I get 6 million downloads on KU or whatever, and it's like, okay, how many customers do you have? I don't know. So, Amazon has your customers? Yes, okay, there we go.

Joanna: It's a business view versus just the author view, I think.David: Yes, I think so. For some people, that's totally fine. I mean if that's what you want to do. I don't want this to be like a cautionary tale, but at the same time it's like, what happens if the faucet shuts off?

I think wide had the right idea. I don't agree with the wide mindset. I think if you're going to be wide at all, you need to be direct, and then wide.

Joanna: When I say wide now, I almost mean direct.

David: Yes, absolutely because why would you feed one beast when you could feed six beasts?

Joanna: Okay, I really want to get into your ScareMail, which is your very cool premium offer.

Tell us about ScareMail, your letter service.David: I love physical products, and I said that earlier, but like when people join The Nightmare Writers, my other subscription, they get a physical card in the mail and a solid steel bookmark with my brand all over it. They get all kinds of perks in this little mail package.

It's 69 cents to send a letter in the mail, and I think people are missing that experience. I thought to myself, I'm like, man, there's something here. I'm like, when's the last time I checked my mailbox? I just check it to make sure it doesn't get full, and it's always full of spam and junk.

When's the last time I got something cool? I thought to myself, I'm like, look, I'm already writing short stories. I'm a creative, I like to try new things. This would be a logistical nightmare for people who don't like to touch physical products or paperbacks. This would be a nightmare for them.

I'm like, maybe there's something here in the experience. So I looked for an experience that I could sell somebody, I could sell a customer.

It's hard to sell fiction, and the reason it's hard to sell fiction is because it's not really solving anybody's problem, except for the entertainment.Well, they can get entertainment anywhere. They get it every three seconds on TikTok. That's why it's so addictive.

So I'm like, how could I sell an experience? So I looked, and I was like, man, there's something here. I sparked this idea, and I'm like, what if I send people letters? I don't just mean handwritten letters, I mean like a story.

The epistolic type writing is not new. It's not new, but it's been forgotten, right, and replaced by ebooks. I didn't like really the price point of ebooks. I don't think it's possible for me to sell ebooks on my website for $2.99.

I believe that I hire premium artists and premium editors, and on my own website, I can set the prices to premium because that's what I spend, just like every other publisher. So I'm like, well, maybe I need a premium experience too.

I was listening to a lot of Alex Hormozi, who's very smart, and I looked for a way I could apply what he was teaching to a product that I was writing. So I wrote a story that is told through letters, and then it's a premium markup.

I deliver 24 letters throughout the course of an entire year, roughly every two weeks. The first letter goes out within three days, and then we guarantee 100% delivery. Throughout it there's paper ephemera, and it's an entire story, and it's actually a kind of a cool third look into the story.

So in the story, the character is communicating with me, specifically. He encounters this website called scare.me, and he believes he is haunted. So since he believes he's haunted, he wants to avoid the internet, but he also wants to warn people about it.

So he starts sending me, David the author, letters, and he's asking me to share my correspondence with people to kind of help them avoid the website. To let them know that, hey, there's something out there they need to be aware of, do not go here. Now, of course, naturally, what do we do? We start to go there.

So don't go to the scare.me website. It's a weird Russian domain that I don't own. I tried to purchase it, but they won't communicate with me. So don't go there, that's not actually part of the story. Everything is going to be on a David Viergutz Domain.

I had some readers come back, and they were like, hey, what is this? I'm like, it's not mine, don't touch it.

It's just taken off. It's changed my life. It's changed my world. I'm looking at purchasing a warehouse. I've got commercial printers that I'm purchasing. I didn't know if you knew this, but a commercial envelope printer is $24,000. I didn't know that until three days ago when I bought one.

Joanna: So can you give us an idea of how much this experience is for the customer?

David: So in the US, it's $107. That's for the whole year. I can tell you that a lot of that is the shipping of the product. It's very expensive to ship 24 letters. It comes out to like 7373 cents a letter. So a lot of that is for the costs.

Then you have the paper ephemera and everything else, and then print costs and everything associated. Then there's the fulfillment, and multiple machines, and all this. This is not for the faint of heart.

Joanna: That's big volume. I mean, to buy machines, you're doing big volume.

David: Yes, yes, we are.

Joanna: That's so impressive. It's amazing. Wait, I need to come back on the actual letters themselves. So obviously you're not handwriting these. So they're printed, but do they look handwritten? And you mentioned ephemera. Give us some ideas, like—

What's in this package?David: Yes, so they look like they come from a typewriter. So in the story, Michael Miller, my character, he purchased the typewriter. So the font is typewritten. The artwork, I hired an artist to do artwork. He likes to scribble on the margins and scribble on the pages, and so I hired an artist to do all that work.

The envelopes themselves have artwork on them that he's scribbled on, and so they're all printed that way. It's got my logo and my branding all over it. So each page has kind of this old faded style to it, so it looks like it's just kind of worn, kind of like a vintage look.

Each letter is different in artwork and in style, and so it's not like you're getting the same page over and over again. Let me see, some of the letters have three to four pieces of paper in them, and each one has different pages. I paid for probably somewhere around like 200 pieces of art.

Joanna: Wow.

David: Then we got the envelopes too, so that's like 224, so, so we're, we're pretty well on there, on artwork. Then you got the ephemera too, and there's two or three.

One thing that's in the story, he goes to tarot card reader, and he tries to get answers. He explains it why he goes there, and she ran out the room screaming. So on his way out, he grabbed one of her business cards.

Well, I include one of the business cards, and if you call the number, it actually goes to a real place, to a real voicemail that I had recorded for the story.

Joanna: Oh, that's cool. So this is real, like transmedia, they call it. I remember talking to JC Hutchins on this show more than a decade ago. This was traditionally published, and it was a book, but it had all the ephemera and things with it. So it's really interesting that you're sending it.

So by the end of the year, the story is complete?

David: Yes, it goes through the entire year. There's an option to purchase the book box. It's got the standard artwork that I would purchase with my logo and branding and everything else, like I would for my normal books.

It's even the same size as a book. It's just a little bit wider, so it actually fit on the shelf next to my novels. Then there's the novelization of the story. So the letters will actually kind of plus up the story if they want to buy the book version. So you can buy them separate or together.

Joanna: I love this. I think it's awesome. Just to repeat, earlier you said—

Selling fiction is hard, so you're selling an experience of fiction.David: Yes, exactly. The reason why is because I can target people's problems, right? The greater message behind the scare—the brand is called ScareMail—and the whole message behind it is that we've forgotten something on the internet.

Social media was supposed to bring us together, and instead it's driven us apart into our own little cell phone worlds. Through letters, we are together as humans again. That is because it is personal.

You must go out to the post office, somebody must have put a stamp on this, and they must collect it, and they must read it and consume it. It's fulfilling that process of the human connection. That's the greater message.

The second issue we solve is that people's mailboxes suck. They don't use them for anything. So we solve that problem for them too.

Then they get the experience, which is the kind of the overarching idea. Like, oh, man, this would be a cool story. Like, this would be a cool experience. I've never had this before, and I get the excitement of going to the mail. This is the fun part that we got to figure out. The logistics was not the fun part.

Joanna: I was going to say, who is sticking stamps? Or are you franking or something like this?

David: We've got a machine that does the stamps, but there's no machine in the world that can stuff these envelopes.

Joanna: Right.

So you've hired people to stuff envelopes every day?David: Yes, my wife and children.

Joanna: That's brilliant.

David: So, I mean, we are going to expand. We're likely going to purchase a warehouse. This is just the first story. I'm already writing a second one.

Joanna: I was going to say, because if I'm someone who really likes this, I don't want to finish just with one. I'll be like, right, I want the next one. I want to see different art. You know, what else will you send me that's really interesting? So if I've bought one, I'm far more likely to buy another one.

David: Yes, and I mean, we have game plans too for cross selling and upselling, of course. We've already got the infrastructure in place. Our house was a warehouse, and we quickly outgrew that space just in stocking paper.

I called dozens of printers and signed contracts and everything else to make this happen. This has not been something that you can just spark overnight. If you want to send cool letters to your readers, like do that. You know, create a Google Form and send some letters.

I would just caution anybody about jumping into this thinking it's going to be a quick buck. It's not, and it's taken over my business to the point that I'm having to hopefully delegate out a lot so that I can focus more on creating more products.

So my top level view of this would basically be product design, and then everybody else below me can just focus on running kind of the mundane parts of it.

Joanna: This is the point, I think. Obviously, you're still writing horror novels, and the books are still there and short stories and all this, but I think this is another of the mindset shifts that happens with selling direct.

For me, at the moment it's Kickstarter special editions with foil and all the nice things, and that's already a step further than just a print on demand paperback.

The concentration on physical products and the ability to do more is, I think, another shift from the digital first model.David: Yes, and I've always had this mindset. I've been asked like, hey, what did you do? Did you run these ads? Did you this?

I said, no, I did more than anybody else was willing to do. Especially when you go through the same process over and over again, and you're 22 novels in, and you put it up on Amazon, and it sticks there for about, I don't know, three days. You look, you're like, man, I didn't recover half of my expenses.

I had a list of 20,000. I've pretty much abandoned my MailerLite list at this point. I said, look, if you want to make a purchase, then I'll keep you on the list. I did quite a few write ups in 20Books about it, about how I was able to get the price down to about 20 cents a subscriber, which is very affordable.

In the end, it was not enough in quantity at $2.99 in KU and all that to make it happen. So, yes, I could play the long game, but at the same time I was like, where else could I go?

Could I go to Kickstarter? I've done a couple Kickstarters, and they were great, but I just didn't like the model. Did some ghost writing, that wasn't very fun. So I tried different things.

I'm like, man, I've got to keep trying something different. That's the entrepreneur in me that wants to do this and wants to solve problems.

Seeing this in horror and being like, look —

There's got to be something here in horror that can work besides just putting it on Amazon, running ads, and hoping for the best. It's always been that way for me. I mean, I still write horror novels, and they sell better than ever.

Joanna: Yes, so just on that, I think you're a product design guy. You're an experience design person. Like that's how your brain obviously works, which not everyone's going to be that way.

Even if people just want to do books, like you said there, you ditched your MailerLite list. Some people don't understand that when you sell direct, you get that email.

Are you just building your email list now through people who buy?David: Yes. So basically, I offered everybody the opportunity—besides my ARC list and my beta list—and the people I knew were buying were essentially already on my list because I've been pushing them towards new products.

So as new books come out, I push them over to Klaviyo. I use Klaviyo along with my Shopify store, so they get put onto a different list. I think that Klaviyo lists are more powerful than MailerLite lists, even though MailerLite is trying to come up with some sort of e-commerce capabilities.

I think you need an actual e-commerce platform if you're going to be doing e-commerce sales. So I am slowly navigating my way out of MailerLite and towards Klaviyo, to the point that I'm like, hey, look, if you're still here on this MailerLite list, I can assume you haven't bought anything from me in a while.

It's like, look, I've always spoken to these people as people, as readers, as people on the other side of the world, showing my gratitude and appreciation, but a lot of people are just there to read my story. That's great, you can be there, but I don't need to pay for two lists. I'm not going to pay so that you can have this entertainment.

I mean, I sell products, and I want to be able to support the people better who are supporting me. So I can do that from my Klaviyo list. So it's a mindset shift.

It's a shift from saying, look MailerLite is an affordable option, it's a great option, but if you're looking to get into direct, you can pretty well start with Klaviyo pretty cheap. It's going to tell you way more about the customer than MailerLite can.

If you have the e-commerce capabilities, you know, WordPress, Wix, Squarespace even does it now, everything connects to Klaviyo. Everything connects to everything at this point. I'm sure there's Zapier automations for stuff that isn't connected already.

You can just learn more about your customers. That's what it comes down to, it's not just an email address. It's an email address, and personal data, and you can see where they came from, and you can see what they clicked on, you can see how many purchases they made, and that data is just so valuable.

I mean, there are companies out there that would kill from my email list right now because my average order value is $100.

Joanna: Yes, and this average order value, I've mentioned this before as well, but this is how much they spend, and you compare that to putting a novel up on KU. I mean, I think I'm at 45 pounds for my Kickstarter as the average order value, and you suddenly realize that you have more than 10x.

I don't know how many percentages that is, but that's a lot. So, you know, and again, it's a difference. People are like, oh, but you're cutting off an audience. But—

You're cutting off a big audience to focus on a smaller audience who actually care and actually buy.David: I mean, and here's the thing too, I can explain to these folks too, it's like, look, it's nothing personal. If you buy from Amazon, click this button and let me know. Like, if that's where you want to go it automatically unsubscribes them.

I'm not going to push you towards Amazon. You can go to Amazon, go find my books as you please, but I'm not going to notify you because that's not where I want you to go.

Joanna: That's really interesting. So if you offer them the Amazon link and they click that, you're unsubscribing them from your list.

David: At this point.

Joanna: That's just genius. Again, just to emphasize to everyone, we are paying for every single person on our email list.

David: Just to send them to Amazon. Look, and I said, I'm not denigrating anybody whose focus is on Amazon. A lot of people have made very successful careers on Amazon. What I'm saying is that there is something else.

People have been selling stuff on the internet long before Amazon came around with KU.

I'm not saying avoid Amazon, what I'm saying is avoid KU. For a long time that was the only option, and it was working very, very well. The market is very saturated right now, and people like me have come around and said, look, I'm willing to give up a little bit of ‘I just want to write books,' in exchange for being able to write the books that I want.

So that's what I had to give up.

I was putting out a book a month at my prime because I could. I was making enough money to basically cover my expenses, but that wasn't enough. I wanted enough to support my lifestyle.I was writing a book in a month, and I was just like, there's got to be something more than this. I don't need to be this generation engine.

Kickstarter, when I did that, that gave me a little bit of freedom to kind of play around with these things. I'm like, I can create this campaign, and I can create these gifts that I can give to people. and create these packages, and I was making artwork. I was really getting into the product design.

I stopped looking at the book, the paperback, the ebook, as the final product, and started looking at the beginning, and that's where I look at it. I'm like —

The book is where things start.You can get the book, but there was so much more with that property, with that thing that you've created, that you can use and send it out into the world and do more with.

People are doing it with books and adapt adaptations of screenplays. What is that? That's just taking a story that's already been written and adapting it for another media. I just took it to the extreme.

I think if people start doing that, and especially with their Kickstarters, like that's where people start taking it and going, hey, look, I can take this and turn it into a hardback, or I can take this and turn it into an audiobook, or a radio drama and that sort of thing.

I know one horror author who just turned his books into a board game. Like, these things are totally possible now, and that creates another opportunity for you, as an author, to be like, I don't need to just be in KU.

Especially when I'm just doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, and I'm running the ads. A lot of authors want to believe that it's them. They'll want to say, like, it's me. I must not be having the right ads. I must not have the right image.

What if you are? What if you are doing the right things, and it's just not selling because there's so many other options out there?

A reader sent me her Kindle, and it had 7000 books on it. I'm like, where's mine in that? You know, even if I had 22 of them and she bought every single one, like when are you ever going to read my books?

It's not just like the sale that matters to me, it's I want them to read it, I want them to enjoy it, and I want them to tell me about it. I've got so much reader response now.

My books are selling more now than ever because people go in and they get ScareMail, and then they come back and they buy all my books because they absolutely love how ScareMail turned out, and they just figured my writing would be the same, and surprise, it is.

Joanna: That's wonderful. Just before we go—

How are you marketing your direct sales, other than the email list?David: I use Facebook ads, I use TikTok, I use Instagram. I'm moving over to lifestyle videos, to YouTube. So that'll be our next shift is to these longer form content that I can kind of break up.

It'll be focusing more on me as a person, as kind of this micro influencer, as this micro character in front of the business. Instead of hiding behind the business, hiding behind my brand, I will be in front of it. I think people connect with that better.

I talk a little bit about business to my friends and they asked, are you trying to get an evaluation on this company and sell? I said, no, I'm trying to create a lifestyle business.

I want something that I can just live with, and enjoy, and play with, and put my effort into, and it gives me something back. I just want to be able to do that. I don't need to build this company just to sell it.

Joanna: Yes, I'm the same. I mean —

We love creating, and we just want to create amazing things, and reach readers, and just be able to keep doing that. That's how we want to live.David: Yes, what's sustainable.

Joanna: Well, it's been really great to talk to you. I've definitely got a lot of ideas from talking to you.

So where can people find you, and your books, and everything you do online?David: Real simple. DavidViergutz.com, V-I-E-R-G-U-T-Z.com. That's where my headquarters is. If you want to go on Amazon, I'm sure my books are probably there if you Google me or if you search it, but please don't.

Go to my website, chat with me. I'm a real human. If you have questions or anything like that, I'm happy to answer, it just might take me a little bit to get to it. So that's it.

This community has given me so much, the least I can do is give back to the people who have helped make it what it is. So if anybody has any questions, or they just want to mull around new ideas, that sort of thing, I'm always happy to help.

Joanna: Oh, well, thanks so much for your time, Dave. That was great.

David: Jo, that was wonderful. Thanks for having me on.

SummaryDavid Viergutz, a disabled army and law enforcement veteran, shares his journey into writing and self-publishing. He discusses the distinction between dark fantasy and horror, emphasizing that horror focuses on survival and the human response to the otherworldly. He explores why people love horror, highlighting its ability to provide safe thrills, escapism, and a connection to basic human emotions. David also talks about the recurring themes in his work, including religious overtones, superstition, and real-life events with a twist.

He then discusses his shift from Amazon to direct sales and the multiple streams of income he has developed, such as his subscription service, physical products, and his unique approach to selling fiction through a subscription-based physical mail experience called Scare Mail. He explains how he creates an immersive and personalized experience for his readers by sending them letters, artwork, and ephemera related to the story. David emphasizes the importance of selling an experience rather than just a book and shares his insights on direct sales, building an email list, and marketing strategies. He also highlights the mindset shift required to focus on physical products and the potential for expanding the story into different media formats.

Takeaways* Selling an experience rather than just a book can be a successful approach to selling fiction. * Creating a subscription-based physical mail experience can provide readers with a unique and immersive experience. * Building an email list and using direct sales can be more profitable than relying solely on platforms like Amazon. * Expanding the story into different media formats, such as board games or radio dramas, can offer new opportunities for authors. * Focusing on product design and creating high-quality physical products can attract and retain customers.

The post Writing Horror And Selling Direct With David Viergutz first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How can you move past your limiting beliefs to find success as an author? How can you successfully self-publish in Germany? Andrea Wilk shares her thoughts in this episode.

In the intro, how to cope with writer conferences [Ink in Your Veins]; Author Nation schedule; Conde Nast signs a licensing deal with OpenAI [Hollywood Reporter];
Breaking down AI misconceptions [Brave New Bookshelf]; Blood Vintage Kickstarter.

This episode is sponsored by Publisher Rocket, which will help you get your book in front of more Amazon readers so you can spend less time marketing and more time writing. I use Publisher Rocket for researching book titles, categories, and keywords — for new books and for updating my backlist. Check it out at www.PublisherRocket.com

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Andrea Wilk (AD Wilk) is the German author of more than 30 books across romance, thriller, and non-fiction. She's also the author of the book in English, 15 Keys to Set your Creative Mind for Success and Happiness.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Germany's book culture
• Why write a book in English?
• How to take control of your author career
• The impact limiting beliefs can have on your writing career — and how to shift them
• Obstacles faced as an indie author
• Common money blocks with authors and creatives
• Tips for generating multiple streams of income and for selling direct via your own Shopify store
• Using AI models as part of a translation process

You can find Andrea at AndreaWilk.com.

Transcript of Interview with AD WilkJoanna: Andrea Wilk is the German author of more than 30 books across romance, thriller, and non-fiction. She's also the author of the book in English, 15 Keys to Set your Creative Mind for Success and Happiness. So welcome to the show, Andrea.

Andrea: Thank you so much for letting me be here. I'm so excited.

Joanna: I'm excited too. Obviously, we've been connected for years now, and you've shown us things on the Patreon, but for anyone else listening—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and self-publishing.Andrea: Yes, I'd love to. I'm Andrea Wilk. I'm from Berlin, Germany. I started writing seven years ago. Well, that's not true completely, because I started writing when I learned writing. When I was 14 years old, I did not win a writing competition, and so I gave up that dream of becoming a writer!

Then 20 years later, when I was 34, I reconnected to that dream. Since then, I've been writing. A year later, I published my first book, and I got to make a living from it almost immediately. I appreciate it so much, and I feel so grateful for it.

I've learned so much from other people, people like you, so I feel like sharing what I learn and my experience is part of my journey, and it belongs to me. This is why I also write books for authors, and I have a YouTube channel in Germany, and I'm going to start one in English as well.

Joanna: So you mentioned there that you started writing properly at age 34, and then quite soon you were making a living that way. So some people will be surprised at that. So tell us—

How did you start with self-publishing?Did you go traditional in any way? How did you go from nothing to making a living?

Andrea: So I've been self-employed for 17 years now, so back then I was already 10 years. I knew from the start that I wouldn't want to go with a publishing house because my freedom means a lot to me, and I'm kind of impatient, so I wanted to have this done as quickly as possible.

I took a year to learn a lot about self-publishing, everything I got to know. This book I published back then, it was a romance book, and that story had been on my mind for forever. So it was a special book, and I think that readers connected to it because of that.

I did a lot of marketing. I did a lot of everything I could do back then without using a lot of money. So I worked with bloggers, and this was 2018, and self-publishing in Germany really started in 2012, so six years ahead.

So people already knew that self-published books could be read, but it wasn't the beginning of that market. So I feel like I've done a lot, and I've learned a lot, and I studied a lot about self-publishing, but of course, there was a little bit of luck in there.

Joanna: Tell people a bit about Germany's book culture.Because it's a very traditional book culture, isn't it? So I feel like romance and fantasy and things like that were underserved by the traditional market.

Andrea: I wouldn't say so. The German market is quite wide considering books because we love books. Germans love reading.

We have a third of the market of the US in books, which is huge. People tend to read a lot of books. Not only one book, but they tend to read a lot, and the bookstores are big. So I wouldn't say that romance was under-served.

Joanna: Okay. There was a point where, like in English language, when Kindle first launched, then later on KU, and the earliest people on that store did really well because there was nothing for people to read digitally. So it was kind of a new thing.

I think 2018, I think I might have come to Frankfurt Book Fair that year, or I was getting involved in the German scene around then, and there wasn't so much like in the Kindle store as there is now, for example.

Andrea: Yes, that's true, because now it's like a lot. It's crazy.

Joanna: This is the first point for people, so often, everyone obsesses about the English language market, which I guess is the biggest. In France, for example, in Spain, Italy, other countries, the Netherlands, these countries haven't had so many books for so long.

I think Germany is still a few years behind what's happening in the English-speaking market.Andrea: I think what's different for self-publishing compared to the traditional publishing market is that ebooks are way cheaper from self-published authors.

In Germany, I don't know how this is in the English market, but traditionally published ebooks are way more expensive than self-published books. This is why so many people buy self-published books because they can just read more by spending less money.

Joanna: That's completely true. There are some publishers who've gone with the cheap model, but certainly the big ones, it might be the equivalent of like 13 euros, 15 euros for an ebook.

Okay, well, we're going to come back to publishing, but let's get into your book in English. So, I mean, that would be the first question.

Why write a book in English?Andrea: Well, I didn't write it in English. I just translated it to English. I feel so connected to the English language. Of course, for German authors, it's a dream to have your book published in English because the German market feels quite small compared to it.

So it was a dream. It has been a dream for years. Two years back, a colleague of mine and I, we discovered DeepL. So back then we decided, well, we have to go into the English market, but things happened, and so it took us some time to get here—or me, she's not there yet—but it took me some time to get here.

Joanna: Yes. Well, let's get into the book now. You open it with the importance of taking personal responsibility. I really love this because this is also what changed my life back in the day, a book called The Success Principles by Jack Canfield.

He also said, “You are 100% responsible for your life,” and you also say this in the book. Many people feel out of control, they don't feel responsible or in control of their life.

How can you encourage people to take control of their author career?Of their life, and accept responsibility, even if it's tough? Which it is.

Andrea: Yes, it is. I love this, that you are 100% responsible for your life, because the moment you realize that you're responsible for your thoughts, and your feelings, and what you do, for me, this changed everything.

I was raised believing that I have to react to whatever happens on the outside. That life pushes me and that I have no control about it, that I have no control on how I feel about things. That I just run on autopilot, even though for the most part of my life, I didn't know that there was an autopilot in myself that was steered by limiting beliefs I had gathered for my whole life.

These limiting beliefs, they make us feel out of control, I think. So what I do when I feel overwhelmed with what happens in the outside is I go inside. I have that picture of a tree, it's a mammoth tree, or I think it's a giant sequoia, it's a big tree. I sit in that tree, and the tree stands in a garden.

I got that picture during a meditation in a coaching session, and sometimes I feel like I cannot trust myself or trust life, so I put myself into that tree, and I was all alone in there. So nobody's allowed to get in there, it's my safe space.

This tree has these huge branches and leaves, and there are fruits. These fruits are what I want to achieve in my life, like the successes I want to have, like money and books, all that stuff. This feels big, but the tree didn't feel stable, and I realized that the roots didn't dig that deep into the earth.

So what I learned was that I have to trust, in life and in myself, to get these roots growing, to get them connected to the ground. So that the tree, my tree, my safe space, and everything that comes out of that tree is safe as well.

Joanna: I think having a visual metaphor is very useful. I have had people on the show who can't see images in their mind, which I find really interesting, but I think most people can see something or can imagine the words.

I think what you're saying is it doesn't matter whether it's a tree or whatever it is, but to have some kind of center that you can go back to. I like the fact that your fruits on that tree are what you're aiming for because I think that kind of shows that that is coming from you.

I guess the question is, okay, so with the trees growing, but let's say our author career is that tree, but very fragile. Like a new author is very fragile. The winds are coming and the rain is coming, and it is a nightmare. How do they deal with that?

How can you reduce these limiting beliefs in order to get back to feeling in control, even if you're not in control?Andrea: What helps me is to reconnect me with my why, my biggest why. Like my purpose, what I really want to achieve beyond writing books, beyond making money. I feel like all these things just lead us to something bigger, to something really big.

For me, that's actually interesting. It's quite uncomfortable to talk about it in English. My writing, I want to inspire people with my writing, with my YouTube channel, with everything I do, because I want people to live their dreams because I get to live my dream, and I know how that feels.

I feel like when each of us gets to live our dreams, then the world is going to be a better place. When you live your dream, you don't feel anger that much. Of course, you feel it as well, but not that much.

You're just more with yourself, and when you're with yourself, then you don't go into separation from other people, but into connection. You go into love, not into fear. I think that's it.

So this is my why, because I want to have people to act out of love and to do what they love. Whenever I go into that tree, I reconnect to this bigger why because then I can trust that everything that happens, happens to get me there.

Joanna: Even if it's difficult along the way. In fact, so the book has got principles, each chapter is like a principle. Then you talk about that and what people can do, and you have things that people can practically do.

One of the principles is, “I build my dream castle out of obstacles.” So this is, I guess, another visual metaphor, but building it out of obstacles.

What obstacles have you faced as an indie author?Because it hasn't all been wonderful. Can you give some advice for other people on the journey?

Andrea: I feel like we are facing a constant stream of obstacles. Here's another picture, because I feel like my path is like a river, and when I'm in my flow, I can go ahead and swim very fast. Then bigger and smaller obstacles are coming.

For some I already acquired the skills to easily deal with them, and my flow is hardly affected by them. Then some are so big I have to stop, look at them, and learn how to make something of them. I think a lot of people see an obstacle and consider it something they don't want in their lives.

So don't get me wrong, in the first moment I am truly with them. We go into resistance, but that doesn't take us anywhere, right? When you have an obstacle and you see it as a problem you cannot solve, then you just feel small and you feel helpless.

If you see it as something that lets you grow because it was put into your way to make you a person that can deal with even bigger problems, that can take another step. When you have stairs and you climb up, and you can climb up a little more when you have solved that obstacle.

So I didn't have like these huge obstacles, but in a way, they've constantly been thrown at me. So this starts with the way people treat you when you start writing, what they tell you about the uncle who has written great books, but he never was successful with it.

So this is an obstacle as well, because dealing with these people and dealing with these new limiting beliefs, in a way, that's an obstacle as well.

Even things like—because I used to do print runs, and I have a distributor—a few years ago, they told me that they had to send me back 500 books. I didn't have any storage or anything. My apartment is not that big, so I had no idea how to deal with it.

The first moment I was like, no, I don't want this. I don't want to have to deal with this. I want everything to just go as it used to.

Then the next moment I felt like, hmm, okay, this could actually be the chance to start selling direct, and to build my own storage, and to build my own shop, to be more independent from Amazon and this distributor.

Joanna: I think that's a really good example. So you gave two examples there. One is other people's limiting beliefs about us. I've been doing this for a really long time, and still, I went to a networking event recently, and I was talking to a lady, and I said, “I'm an author, and I run my own publishing company.”

She sort of looked at me and said, “Oh, you mean you're self-published,” and like her tone of voice. I was like, “Yes, I run my own publishing company.” I just, I felt that feeling of what other people's beliefs can do to us, and I thought my tree was pretty okay, was pretty strong.

That was one example you gave, and then the other one was that more practical one. It sounds like you're pretty quick to learn how to deal with things, and you can adjust your attitude quite quickly. So how have you learned to do that?

How can people snap out of it more quickly in order to regain their strength?Andrea: Well, here's a book recommendation, and that is Ryan Holiday, The Obstacle is the Way.

Joanna: Good book, yes.

Andrea: Yes, an amazing book. I think when I read this, this was the first time I realized that it's on me, on how I deal with obstacles.

Then there's a method, a tool by Albert Ellis, and it's the ABC Tool. It says that when something happens, because of our autopilot, we tend to go to C directly. Like when there's an obstacle, we tend to see it as a problem, and see it as something we cannot deal with, and just feel overwhelmed.

When we get into B first, like A, something happens, and then we have B, and we take ourselves back—go into our trees, for instance—and just reconnect to ourselves and see the problem from the outside, then we can connect to our strengths and can see if it's really problem or if it's an opportunity to grow.

That's what I do. I think it's about trusting life. It's about trusting that life wouldn't put anything in front of you that you're not able to deal with, you know what I mean?

Joanna: Or at least you might not be able to deal with it right now. I mean, take self-publishing, even just someone with their first book who wants to just upload their eBook on Amazon. I mean, like you and I have done this a lot, but formatting an eBook, getting a cover design, working with an editor, I mean, there's so many steps.

People email me all the time and say, I just can't do this. People must email you too with your YouTube channel.

What do you say to those people who are just starting out and it's all a problem?Or there are people listening who have not yet built a Shopify store, and let's face it, it's hard.

Andrea: I won't say that it's hard, but it's out of our comfort zone.

Joanna: Yes, it's a challenge.

Andrea: It's a challenge. Yes, that's the word. It's a challenge. You have to accept the challenge, or you have to decide whether you want to accept a challenge or not. The moment you accept it, there's only one thing to do, and that is taking the next step.

Then you go on and on and on like that. Just take the next step and the next step. When you hit a wall and you realize, well, I need to learn something to take the next step, then learning that thing is the next step. So we tend to see the big mountain we have to climb, but seeing the next step is actually quite easy.

Joanna: I think one of the problems in the publishing industry, because the media shows us the images of the people who just are really super successful, is people think they can go from the first step to the top of the ladder, or the top of the mountain, without doing the years in the way.

So I think that's interesting too, isn't it, that the impatience can be an issue.

Andrea: I am impatient. My first book was such a big success, and I did a lot for it. I studied a year to get there, but it was still too soon. Sometimes I feel like it would have been better if I had that slowly, organically growing success.

When we want to get from the bottom of the mountain to the top in seconds, mostly we're not the person who can deal with whatever happens up there on top. When we're when we're climbing that mountain, we're building strength to be that person.

We become that person that can handle the success, and the failure, and everything that can happen up there, because what happens up there is way more challenging than what happens at the bottom of the mountain.

Joanna: Yes, and let's face it, we all have to learn a lot about the writing craft, as well as business. Another thing that you have in the book is you have things around money. Of course, you mentioned before that your tree has fruits that are books and that are money.

I'm glad you have a section on this because I think money mindset is really important for business success.

One of your principles is, “I am allowed to be successful and make money.”

That phrase is really interesting, “I am allowed.” I wrote an article very early in my blogging career around “I give myself permission.” So I guess that's quite similar.

What do you think are the common money blocks that you see with authors and creatives, and how can they break through them?Andrea: So in Germany, it's kind of a bad thing to make money from something good, something you enjoy doing. I always feel like I have to justify myself when I tell people that I make a living from writing.

I mean, it depends on the people. So many people are stuck in jobs that they don't like. They only work for money. They only go to that place to be able to pay their rent and their food. So it's kind of difficult to tell people that we make a living from something we love.

I think this is another limiting belief that is deep inside of us and that we have to work on. Another money block, I think at least I face it, is that it's supposed to be hard to make money. Of course, writing can be hard, publishing can be hard, but not as hard as going to a normal job, a job you don't like.

So we have that picture of the poor artists in our heads because that's how, at least, that's how I was raised. I know a lot of people who just feel like that and who have that romantic picture in their heads. So many people feel bad for making money from stuff they love.

Joanna: It's really interesting because there are these money blocks, but I also say that multiple streams of income is a really good idea as a creative. I know that you do a lot of stuff. You're a multi-passionate creative. You do tons of different things.

What are the multiple streams of income for your books and your other aspects?Andrea: So first of all, I'm still in KU with some books. I tried to get out of it, but it turned out to be very difficult, at least in Germany. So I put back some books into KU.

Since I have so many books, I've published 30 books so far, and I've only put back like 10 books into KU. These are romance novels, so my thrillers and my non-fiction books are wide, which makes me some money.

That's only for the ebooks because my print books are all wide. I sell them on Shopify as well. So I have my own store for four years now, and it's growing. It really makes me some decent money already.

Then I did print runs. Sometimes I do limited print runs that I only sell via Shopify. I used to do print runs and had them distributed by a distributor that is Nova, because that's the only possible way to distribute print runs in Germany without having it being complicated.

Then I have audiobooks, which I narrate myself. I do Kickstarters twice a year. Thank you for that, for inspiring me to do that.

Joanna: Your covers are beautiful.

You design your own covers, don't you?Andrea: Yes, I do. Thank you so much. It takes a lot of time. People constantly ask me about designing their covers, but I couldn't do it.

Joanna: I mean, you love doing it for your own work. I think that's it.

Andrea: It's the creative side I love, but it wouldn't be efficient. It's just too much time to do it.

Then I've just started the Patreon channel, and I've only got like 20 members there, but it's a start. I also started a member area on YouTube, and I started coaching authors. I finished the 10-months coaching training in June.

Joanna: Will that coaching be more around the mindset stuff or the practicalities of uploading things and stuff?

Andrea: No, because that's what people asked me for years. I always felt like, well, I can tell you all that stuff, but that's not a guarantee for success.

If you want to be successful, you have to start within. You have to start with your mindset and with your heart.I've been coaching for 12 months now, and I've already coached other authors, but also a lot of people from the training.

It's so interesting when you just ask the right questions, what people already know about themselves but haven't seen so far, and what can change for them when they just start looking inside.

Joanna: Yes, I agree. On your YouTube channel, do you have any ad revenue from that? It looks amazing. You do great video. I was watching it, and you and your co-host are really good to watch, even though I don't understand the language.

Andrea: No, I don't, and I actually don't want to because I don't want to have people watch ads while watching my videos.

Joanna: I've got a tip for you, which is for the first two weeks, three weeks, you have the ads off, so then the first round of people get them. Then you turn them on like three or four weeks later. Then you can also have ones that are only at the beginning and the end, and you can say no to the midroll ones.

Andrea: Oh, that's amazing. So in the beginning when I upload the video, people don't see ads?

Joanna: Exactly.

Andrea: Oh, that's great.

Joanna: Then I feel like, well, the subscribers have seen it with no ads, and then new people—well, people are used to it, right? If you stumble across a new creator on YouTube, you kind of expect to wait the five seconds, or whatever it is, before you can click the button to move into the video.

If they're at the beginning and the end and they're not in the middle, I feel like that's the best way. So you get less ad money for having no midroll, but I'm the same, I don't want it kind of in the middle.

Andrea: That's great advice. Thank you so much.

Joanna: Yes, so that might add a little more.

Just coming back to, first of all, KU in Germany. I also have my books in German in KU. Just tell people, what does wide mean? I mean, I know of the Tolino. You can get to the Tolino through, I think, Draft2Digital and through some other places, Publish Drive.

I'm kind of with you in that it's very hard to sell eBooks on these other platforms because the marketing isn't quite there.

Is KU still the best option for ebooks in Germany?Andrea: Yes and no. I think for the beginning when you start off in Germany, it is, because you get the biggest reach there. I do know some authors who built their readership on other platforms. I think it's crucial for your long term success to be wide.

I just heard of another author whose Amazon account was terminated, and I'm kind of scared of this, which is why I go wide as far as I can. You have different options, but Tolino is actually another ereader like the Kindle, but it's also a platform, a distributor.

The three biggest distributors in Germany are Tolino, BoD, and epubli. They all distribute your books to Tolino, Kobo, Apple, and all these platforms. So if you put in the effort of marketing and are a little patient, I think you can build something there as well.

A lot of people who are using the Tolino are reading via the smartphones.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. That's for eBooks, obviously. Now for the print on demand, so I get people all the time saying, can you tell Bookvault to get a printer in Europe? They're in the UK, and obviously we're no longer in the EU. There's customs and all the duties and all that kind of thing.

Who do you use for your print on demand?Andrea: Well, I'd love to use Bookvault. I've asked them on the Self Publishing Live Show, but they said no, not yet at least. As I said, I used to do print runs because I love beautiful books. In Germany, Germans love beautiful books. We love flaps, and we love the UV foil stuff, and all these things.

It's expensive, and it's gotten more expensive since paper prices are just skyrocketing. So I stopped this, because if you have so many books, it's just too hard.

Joanna: That's exactly the point. You can't keep doing print runs when you have 30 books.

Andrea: You can do it for the first print run, but when it's sold out, you have to redo the print run. That's more expensive because you print less books then, and so it's more expensive for each book.

So I switched to a print on demand, and I went with Tolino because, well, the most taken option is BoD, but BoD takes all your rights. So they take your printing rights, and that means I cannot print any books with a printing service, which I want to do because I want to sell my books direct. I cannot do that when I'm with BoD.

So I went with Tolino, which is a good option. It's a good quality. It's not perfect, I don't love it, but it's okay. BoD is not better, and what BoD does as well is they take your audiobook rights. You can get them back when you write to them, but, meh.

Joanna: Why would you do that?!

Andrea: Yes, I just don't like the policy of taking all the rights.

Joanna: Absolutely. It's funny, you mentioned epubli before, I spoke at their conference in Berlin. It must be a decade ago now. I think that was before we connected. It was kind of the early days of that kind of self-publishing. I think they really just started out.

What about KDP Print in Germany?Andrea: Well, it doesn't make sense because bookstores don't order books from Amazon. Well, some do, but the big ones don't, and you're not listed in the VLB. This is an index of all the deliverable books in Germany that have an ISBN, but you have to list the books there.

The print on demand services, they do that. So bookstores can look into their computers and order the books when somebody wants to buy them, and they don't do that with the Amazon books.

So Amazon KDP actually would be a nice option because it's cheaper, and I do like the quality in Germany, but the book isn't available in other stores then.

Joanna: That's interesting. A lot of my KDP print books, when I get the proofs and stuff, come from Poland, I think. So that would certainly be closer to you than to me. I think that's really interesting. So coming back on the Shopify store—

What are your tips for authors when selling direct, and dealing with customers, and any of the challenges you've had with Shopify?Andrea: Well, I did start with WordPress and WooCommerce, and this was like the biggest challenge using WordPress. So I switched to Shopify like 18 months ago, and I love it. I just translated the whole page into English, which is crazy.

Joanna: They have AI tools in Shopify now, right?

Andrea: Yes, and it even translated all my products. I just had to add, “This has been translated automatically by Shopify. If you want to read the book, please tell me, and I'll put it on my translation list.”

Yes, so I feel like one of the biggest challenges is to find space for your books, to store them. I used to have them in my apartment, and it just was a big challenge. So I'm really glad that I had to rent storage space.

I think we've talked about this when we interviewed you, that you have to be the person who wants to do that stuff with the print books, because it can be exhausting.

For eBooks, and audiobooks, and I do have Notion templates as well, it's just amazing because everything runs automatically. I use Bookfunnel, of course, because it's amazing.

I think the biggest difficulty in Germany is to make readers, and authors as well, learn that this is a possibility. We are used to buying from Amazon or from a bookstore, and I'm constantly convincing people to buy from my store. So I'm constantly building that readership that wants to buy from me directly.

Joanna: Yes, and that's the point. It's always going to be a smaller group, but they care enough to do that. I think that's important.

So we just mentioned AI translation there, and back in 2019 I used DeepL to translate some non-fiction books. I worked with an editor, and it was pretty expensive. Previously to that, like 2014 I think, I first did translations where I paid for things, and that was even more expensive.

So it feels like things are just starting to change. Just last week, I used Claude 3.5 Sonnet to translate a short story, Beneath the Zoo, to German. I got two proofreaders to look at it, and then I sent it to you. So tell me what you thought of that, and—

What do you think of AI and the new [translation] models now?Andrea: It was excellent. I was completely blown away by the translation because I wouldn't have noticed that it was AI translated. When I read again that it was translated not by DeepL, but by Claude, I was even more excited.

When I translate my books, I put them into DeepL, and then I put chapter by chapter into Claude or Gemini. I think Gemini is doing a great job as well. So how did you do it? Did you put it in chapter-by-chapter or the whole manuscript?

Joanna: Yes, because it's a short story, it's about 4000 words, I put it in 1000 words at a time. In my prompt, I said, “Make sure you keep the author's voice in the translation.” You said that you thought it was quite voicey, didn't you?

Andrea: Yes.

Joanna: So obviously I'm not bilingual, so is DeepL kind of more non-fictiony, more serious? Or is there a difference, do you think?

Is DeepL now just a lot better as well?Andrea: Well, with DeepL, I think what's interesting is that you can put up the whole manuscript, and I hope that the software just makes some connections between the chapters.

So when I upload the manuscript chapter-by-chapter for the translation to Claude or something, I would be afraid that it wouldn't keep the tone, as you said, but it did with your manuscript.

Joanna: Well, it was all in one conversation, so it was just in the same chat. It wasn't like a new start for every chapter, it was just all in the same chat. “Do this. Now, do this. Now, do this. Now, do this. Now, do the sales description. Now, give me a list of keywords.” For people listening, I'm going to do a video on this for my Patreon.

Andrea: I have a question on this. What if you put up the whole manuscript? Because you can upload a whole manuscript and tell it to read it, and then you go chapter-by-chapter and ask it to translate it.

Joanna: I could've done that. I guess I was just nervous. It was just an experiment. As I said, I mean people listening, just to be clear, I used two proofreaders who gave me some changes. Then I sent them to you so you could have a look.

Andrea: I did that too. I had two proofreaders as well.

Joanna: Yes, and you had yours for English, right? So you did that for the books in English. Of course, we all do it for our own language too. I use an editor for my books in English.

So I think the point is that these translations can be cheaper, but we still want to ensure the quality. That's the most important thing.

Andrea: Yes.

Joanna: Tell people what else you're using AI for, in your designs and stuff like that.Andrea: I feel like I use it for everything. I use it mainly for marketing stuff, actually. I do have it open when I write a book because right now, I'm writing a book about somebody who's a hairstylist, and I have no idea about this stuff.

So I ask the AI to give me some examples, for instance, for some wording and stuff. Then I might put up a paragraph and ask it if it's written correctly, or if I should add something, or if it's completely wrong.

Mainly, I do use it for marketing. For instance, I'm on TikTok, and you have these videos where you see the book, and then you have the quotes from a book in there.

I upload the whole manuscript and ask it to give me quotes out of the book that I can use for TikTok.Joanna: Which tool are you using for that?

Andrea: It depends, because I'm on Poe. On Poe.com, I can use all the chat boards, so I switch between them. For some things, Gemini is better than ChatGPT, and then Claude is better than the two of them. So I ask all of them, mainly those three.

Joanna: I think that's great. I haven't done that, ask it for quotes from the book. That's actually really good because I have gone to Kindle Highlights, I've used that before. Like, what is everyone highlighting? But if you can get quotes picked because, I mean, who wants to read their whole blooming book again?

Andrea: Not me, not me. I hate this. I always tell myself when I'm editing my books that I pick these quotes out, and then I don't do it because it's not fun.

Joanna: It's just not fun. So this is for TikTok.

You get the quotes, then what do you do with them?Andrea: I go into TikTok, and I have my template video, in a way. So I use almost the same video all the times. Then I just put the quote, it's mainly like five to six sentences, and I just put them up sentence by sentence so that they appear after each other.

This is actually working. I don't like doing this on my normal TikTok channel because I feel like this is about me and my books. So I just started a Romance AD Wilk TikTok channel where I only post these videos.

So this is really for the algorithm and for marketing stuff. I feel like this is not social media to post videos like that, it's marketing.

Joanna: That's interesting. I mean, I've thought about TikTok, and I have even tried TikTok for less than a day and decided it's not for me.

I can see how some of these things people could use, and they don't have to kind of put their face up or whatever. It's just kind of more of a genre account or something like that, which is interesting.

What image software are you using for your book covers and stuff?Andrea: Midjourney, and I love it. I've tried all the others, but no. They are updating the platform so often. Now it's so easy to edit the pictures you generated, and I just love it.

I'm going to publish a Christmas romance novel in October, and I just let it create a picture for it. I love that you can expand the picture and that you can reframe it, and the quality is amazing.

Joanna: Yes, it really is. I know you've been using these tools for, I think, even longer than I have, but I think that Midjourney really is just brilliant.

The book cover that I've just done in the last week, Blood Vintage, I'm just in love with that cover. That was out of Midjourney, and I gave it to my cover designer, and she put the text on and stuff. So what's next for you?

Are you going to do more books in English?Is that kind of the new thing? You mentioned you're going to do a YouTube channel in English. So is this where you're pushing next?

Andrea: Yes, it is. As I said, I've been wanting to do this for years now. I'm starting with the non-fiction books because I feel like it's more easy. It's easier to translate non-fiction stuff into English or into another language than fiction stuff.

Now I saw your story, and I feel like, well, maybe that's not true anymore. I do want to start with the non-fiction books because I have five more in German. There are four books for authors, and there's one inspiration book, and they're not that long, so it can be done quite quickly.

I want to have them published by the end of the year in English. Then I want to start with my romance books. Yes, that's exciting.

Joanna: It's definitely a new direction.

Where can people find you, and your books, and everything you do online?Andrea: So you can find me everywhere under Andrea Wilk. So that would be AndreaWilk.com. There you can sign up for my newsletter. I have my YouTube channel. It is called Between Words.

I have an offer for every author who writes romance books and wants to translate their books into German, maybe you're interested in a collaboration with me. So stuff like newsletter swaps and whatever, just connect to people who are where you want to be. I feel like networking is so worthy, and I just think we should all work together instead of being so competitive about that stuff.

Joanna: Absolutely. Well, thanks so much for your time, Andrea. That was great.

Andrea: Thank you so much.

The post Author Mindset Tips And Publishing In Germany With AD Wilk first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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Can you have a business with a soul through writing? How does the business of fiction differ from non-fiction? What are some tips for pitching a book for film & TV? All this and more with Aurora Winter.

In the intro, 100 book marketing ideas [Written Word Media]; 25 indie authors tips to finding success [Self Publishing Advice]; BookFunnel for audiobooks; Bookfunnel as landing page for Facebook Ads; TIME signs licensing deal with OpenAI; ALCS AI licensing survey; my 2020 book on AI for authors and publishing.

Plus, Corfu on Instagram and proving I am human; In My Time of Dying by Sebastian Junger; Eruption by Michael Crichton and James Patterson; De-Extinction of the Nephilim on JFPennBooks; Other stores].

Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital to get started.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Aurora Winter is the multi-award-winning author of nonfiction business books and teen fantasy novels, as well as a publisher, TV producer, and serial entrepreneur.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• How writing can help people during difficult times
• Actionable ways to turn grief into gratitude
• Tips for pitching to producers
• The importance of patience and connections in the film industry
• How self-development can lead to increased opportunities
• How and when to delegate tasks to a virtual assistant
• The neuroscience behind effective pitches

You can find Aurora at AuroraWinter.com, and her latest book at MagicMysteryAndTheMultiverse.com.

Transcript of Interview with Aurora WinterJoanna: Aurora Winter is the multi-award-winning author of nonfiction business books and teen fantasy novels, as well as a publisher, TV producer, and serial entrepreneur. So welcome to the show, Aurora.

Aurora: It's so great to be on the show with you, Joanna.

Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. First up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.Aurora: Well, my life changed when I was just nine years old, and I first read the Narnia series by CS Lewis. As I reached for the last book in that series, I just felt such a thrill of anticipation, but also anticipatory grief.

I realized the moment that my little nine-year-old hand touched that book, that writers are kinds of wizards. That with just ink on white paper, we can transport the reader to another place in time, even somewhere that doesn't even exist.

In that moment, my little nine-year-old heart decided I would do whatever it took to become a great writer, like CS Lewis, and I'm still working on that.

Then CS Lewis changed my life a second time after my husband died suddenly. He was only 33, and our son was four. I read CS Lewis's book, A Grief Observed, which was later made into a movie, and that book so touched me because he was willing to share those mad midnight moments. It allowed me to feel like it's okay, I can get through this. So two times, once when I was 31, and once when I was nine, CS Lewis changed my life, and he was already dead.

What better way to leave a lasting legacy and help other people than to write books? What better way to uplift, inform, and inspire others?Joanna: How did you get from the nine year old who really wanted to write—we're going to come back to the grief—but you have had loads of businesses. As I said, you're like a serial entrepreneur. You've done loads. So was it a case like many of us, that it was just not a proper job to go into writing? How did you end up back in writing?

Aurora: When I went to university, my father who's an economist, scoffed at me when I said that I wanted to major in English. He's like, there's no money in that, do something sensible. So I studied economics, I have an MBA now.

Yet, I always had this passion for writing. So I took a minor in languages and literature, and I never stopped writing. I was writing journals, or as a nine-year-old, I wrote little illustrated stories that never got beyond chapter three.

Then eventually, one thing leads to another. I actually got sick, to be honest. I was running a profitable business with my husband. We had launched a yacht sales company, it was a seven-figure business. We sold $3 million of boats in one week when I was pregnant.

I'm like, okay, this is a very lucrative business, and yet my soul was sick. I was missing writing. So after my baby was born, I got up at 4 a.m. to write, and then I looked after the baby, and then I did the accounting for the company, and I got sick. I got chronic fatigue syndrome, or Epstein Barr.

I realized I couldn't put my soul aside forever, that there would be a price to pay. So I went back into writing screenplays.Then, this is a little mini miracle, can you believe it, a feature film came to shoot in Vancouver, BC, Canada, where I lived at the time. The production manager for John Badham, who directed the movie Stakeout and Bird on a Wire called and said, “Hey, we need to use a boat. Can we rent one of your boats?”

I heard my husband answering the phone, “We don't rent boats. We've got brand new $200,000 boats for sale.” I'm like, “Wait a minute, hold on! Hang on a second. I'm a screenwriter. Yes, we do rent boats if it's John Badham calling.”

So my husband skippered the boat and I crewed. I met Mel Gibson and Goldie Hawn, and the first assistant director on that shoot Peter Marshall and I became friends. Later he hired me to write the first screenplay that I wrote for real money.

So what are the chances that the universe would actually bring that right to me? Then through various other miracles, my life changed and I ended up in film and television.

Joanna: Wow. Okay, we're going to come back to that. I know it's a difficult topic, but you've written about the death of your husband, and many people listening, I mean, everyone at some point is going to go through grief. Of course, for you, the very early tragic death of your husband.

You've also helped others with grief, which again, you turned your own trouble into helping others.

How can writing help people with difficult times?If people are going through this right now or it's something that they're suffering, even if they don't want to publish their words, I think that's really important. How can writing help that situation?

Aurora: Well, you wrote about it so beautifully in Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words, which I highly recommend. I love this book, I have it right by my night table. It's a beautiful addition that you did on Kickstarter.

What you just said about even if it's not being published, I think that's the first thing to lean into. Write for yourself at first. Don't think about publishing at first, especially if you're writing about grief. Writers pay attention. The act of writing is paying attention.

You would be surprised how you can alchemize pain into wisdom, grief into gratitude, if you take the time to first vent and just get all that stuff out on the page.

Then later, for example, my first published book, From Heartbreak to Happiness, which was endorsed by Dr. Wayne Dyer, my hero, was simply my diary of healing through grief.

When I reread my diary, I was floored to notice how many times my prayers had been answered, but I hadn't been grateful at the time because the prayers were answered three months later, six months later. I hadn't noticed, hey, I prayed for that.

There is value in writing and in reviewing what you have written. That will bring you greater wisdom.So my 90-day challenge for the listeners is write every day, even for five minutes in your journal. Read every day, you can start with reading the book Writing the Shadow by Joanna Penn, it's amazing. Then review what you have written once a week.

If you do that for 90 days, I promise you, your life will transform. You will start to notice the things that you are complaining about. If you're still complaining about something 90 days later, you should do something about it, or you should just stop complaining.

You write in your book, Writing the Shadow, about how grateful you were that you were in so much pain working in IT that you finally shifted.

There's value in pain, and if we're complaining or suffering, either we need to accept, forgive, or release.The past will never change, but we do have the present moment we can change. So there's a great value in writing about grief or any kind of suffering that you're going through.

Joanna: Yes, I mean, you said it before about “my soul was sick.” Sometimes we do have to be in those very difficult places. I'm not saying, obviously, that people should die, but people do die. That is the reality of life. Turning that, as you said, into gratitude is amazing.

I do just want to say there for reviewing what we've written, I do read back some of my journals from like 20 years ago, and some things never change, but we hope that other things move on.

Aurora: Yes. Well, I've studied happiness extensively, as you mentioned. I later launched a company called The Grief Coach Academy, which is being run by an amazing woman now, Audrey White. So it continues on, although I've gone on to focus on other things.

I created a systemized process for releasing and transforming grief into gratitude. Anyway, one of the key things that everybody can do, you can do this starting now, and I did it last night, I do it every night, is just list three things that you're grateful for.

You can write it down, or what I do is just as I'm falling asleep, I think about the day, and I acknowledge three things that happened during the day that I can be grateful for.

You can deepen this practice by acknowledging how your character trait or your choices helped lead to that happy thing. For example, last night, I was grateful that I've just bought a car for my son. He got a nice 2019 BMW i3, and he's like all happy and skippy about it.

So I was grateful for the prosperity to be able to help him buy a car. I was grateful that he was so happy. Also, I noticed that it shifted his identity, which is the highest leverage thing you can do for another person, as Tony Robbins would say. So that is one of the simple things everybody can do. It's a happiness hack. It takes like three minutes, and I recommend you do it daily.

Joanna: Actually, on that, I can go even faster. I use Notes on my iPhone, and I just dictate. I have found that dictating just means it's almost less repetitive.

Some days you're grateful for the same things, and you think, is it worth being grateful for this again? But yes it is, and those are the things we don't want to change. So yes, I found dictation actually makes a real difference.

So coming back to the film and TV because I find this really interesting. You had an interview recently on the Self-Publishing Advice site where —

You mentioned the importance of writing a book, not a screenplay, if you want to pitch for film and TV, which is something I also learned recently.So can you talk a bit about this, why writing a book is better, because you have written screenplays as well. Give us any other tips for pitching IP to producers that don't involve licensing boats!

Aurora: Yes, that's probably not too repeatable, so here's how I can help the listeners. I have a background in film and television, I worked for Canada's largest film and television production company. I worked as a vice president of another production company in the States in Los Angeles.

Then I launched my own film and television production company. We raised $5 million to that and made eight films. So I have about, I don't know, 300 hours of production that I was connected with in some ways.

My development budget when I was working in Toronto was one and a half million dollars just to develop projects, and I have never optioned the screenplay from a first-time screenwriter. It did not happen. It doesn't happen. But so many times I would option books.

So there is a very common thing in film and television to option a book. So most of the listeners are authors, take advantage of that.

The second thing is I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I know, you cannot copyright an idea, you can only copyright a specific expression of an idea.

A book asserts your copyright.I actually had the personal experience of pitching a TV series to a very large US broadcaster that you would know the name of, but I won't say it. My business partner at the time signed the release that they make you sign when you pitch something, which basically says we might be pitched something similar.

Anyway, they basically stole the idea for the TV series, and they made it, but I didn't see a dime. So there's a risk when you're just pitching a treatment or a screenplay that having a book helps mitigate.

Also with the book, you've got something. An unsold screenplay just gathers dust.

With a book that can be optioned as a screenplay, you can get awards, sales, proof of concept. You can make some momentum.Joanna: There's a great book called Hollywood Vs. the Author, which I always recommend. It tells people how to protect themselves.

I feel like sometimes we focus so much on protecting our work, we don't actually get it in front of people. I think that's kind of the opposite issue. So any tips on pitching, to get our books in front of people?

Aurora: Well, absolutely. I'm actually going to the Banff Media Festival in the beginning of June with two of my clients because I help people out with their books and help them pitch. So what you want to do is —

You want to get your pitch down to be really clear. So for example, my fantasy series Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, that pitch is it's basically “Harry Potter meets Doctor Who.” So you want it to be that tight, and then you can go on from there. Then if somebody's interested, you can tell them a little bit more.

So about Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, in addition to saying it's like Harry Potter meets Doctor Who, I can say it won the American Fiction Award for best preteen book, and it won the Reader’s Choice Award and several other awards. So, already that's enough for somebody to go, “You know what, I only do thrillers. I'm not interested in YA fantasy,” or they can say, “Tell me more.”

So for example, I'm meeting with BBC again in a couple of weeks. They expressed interest in a 12-part half hour series. We'll see if that goes anywhere. Interest is not a deal, interest is not a greenlight.

Now that I have interest from BBC, I can meet with Paramount or Warner Brothers or Universal or Netflix and say, hey, they're interested, are you interested? Then we can perhaps get it get a deal.

Joanna: Yes, and it takes so long, doesn't it? This is the other thing I feel people don't realize is that it's also about relationships. It's interesting that you got into it because you met that person on the boat all those years ago. Then you got into it, and then things develop.

So I think that's the other thing, if you really want your book and you want to see something on the screen—

Patience and connections make all the difference.Aurora: There was an interesting story about the Banff Film Festival. So after my husband died, just shortly thereafter, maybe six months after, a friend of mine was trying to drag me to a party for people in film in Vancouver. I'm like, I don't want to go, I don't feel like it.

He's like, “You are moping, and I don't blame you for grieving, but you're getting out of the house now. Get dressed.” So anyway, I went to the party and ended up sitting beside somebody I didn't know.

He said, “Oh, what do you do?” So I told him I was a screenwriter. He said, “Oh, well, what are you writing?” Then I told him what I was writing because I got all excited about it. He's like, “I think you should represent the province of British Columbia and pitch that at the Banff Film and Television Festival.”

I'm like, what? Who are you? Turned out I happened to be sitting by the head of film for British Columbia BC Film Commission. Anyway, so then I had a moment of do I say no or do I say yes. This is a tip everybody can do.

When you are invited to do something outside of your comfort zone, take a deep breath and say yes. I said yes. Then I got a phone call the next day from a producer. She's like, “Well, would you mind if I followed you around and did a documentary film of you and a couple of the people who are pitching?”

I'm like, okay, yes. So then my shoulder went into spasm just before the pitch. So I'm like, oh, no, I'm going to pitch as a first-time screenwriter who has nothing produced, who has no momentum—who can sell boats, though—to 600 film and television executives. If they miss it because they're not in the room, they can watch it later on national television.

Joanna: Wow.

Aurora: But anyway, that pitch for that screenplay created a bidding war, and my agent fielded offers from Spelling and Universal and other places. That basically ended up changing my life. So the right words, at the right time, to the right people can change your life.

That launched, initially, a six-figure deal, and then went on to create, basically, multiple-million dollar business creating film and television. So it was all because I was willing to say yes and step into something I was not comfortable about. Later, they used the documentary to teach the art of pitching in the Banff Film school, so that was kind of cool.

Joanna: That is cool. I also want to note that you are clearly someone who reads a lot of self-help books and is very into self-development. I think this is a very important thing, too. I feel like you've obviously invested in yourself. I used to listen to Tony Robbins audios back in the day as well.

By changing your mindset, you changed your actions, and that led to these opportunities. I feel that so often people almost expect these things to happen. Even though you're saying that it happened quite quickly, I feel like you put in a lot of work on yourself in order to be in that position.

Aurora: Thank you for acknowledging that. Yes, a lot of work on myself. It's a never-ending process. I remember that at one point you said something like you wanted to be like the female version of Tony Robbins, and I think you're doing a brilliant job.

Joanna: The quiet one!

Aurora: Yes, an introverted one. It never ends, you know, working on yourself is the most valuable thing you can do.

Joanna: Yes, and I noticed that we both have Learner and Strategic in our top five Clifton Strengths.

Aurora: Yes, we have a lot in common there.

Joanna: Which I thought was interesting, because I mean, we do love learning. I think this makes all the difference. Just going back to your business, so you have a book called Turn Words Into Wealth: Blueprint for Your Business, Brand, and Book. It has a lot of ideas about how to make more money with books. I'm interested because you've done so many different types of writing—

What do you see as the difference between the business models of fiction and nonfiction? How do these play out in your business now?Aurora: I think fiction has so many opportunities for movies and merchandising. As I mentioned, BBC is interested in my fantasy series Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse. If that deal goes, that will be extremely lucrative.

Also, merchandising. That's a YA fantasy, a young adult fantasy, so there's so many things in that novel that could be t-shirts, cups, but also there's like some cool magical cuffs, kind of like Wonder Woman cuffs that the protagonist Anna has. So those are merchandising opportunities.

Sometimes nonfiction can be turned into movies, like The Secret is an example of that. Or Marie Kondo's The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up, which shockingly became a Netflix special—I'm sorry, Netflix series—even though English is not her first language because people like to watch other people who are hoarders tidy up.

Joanna: I was just thinking, I watched that series.

Aurora: I definitely learned how to fold from her.

Joanna: Yes, how to fold. Exactly.

Aurora: So nonfiction is stronger at helping you get speaking engagements, or getting on podcasts, or consulting or training. In fact, nonfiction books can be used to build any business that has some kind of expertise.

Both fiction and nonfiction can help you put your hat in the ring for the highest paid profession, which is speaking. So in the book Turn Words Into Wealth, I go in depth into seven different models to create seven figures with your business.

Not all the models will work for you or for your particular book, but take a look and choose one, and then implement it strategically.

Joanna: Easier said than done, obviously. I've embraced who I am at this point, that I'm a multi-passionate creator. We'll come back to the entrepreneurial side. I also like to do everything myself, which is a strength and a weakness.

So I feel like I have a lot of these streams, but I have to split my attention between the different streams. Thus, they each become, I guess, less effective.

Have you got any tips for people like me, perhaps who can do lots of different things and want to create lots of different things, but for whom focus is a weakness?Aurora: People like you? You mean people like us. I feel like I'm pretty much the same. I have the same strengths and flaws.

I want to acknowledge that the fact that you write both fiction and nonfiction really helped me give myself permission to start writing fiction again in 2020 because I had taken a pause from that. I wrote fiction when I was writing screenplays, and then I wrote only nonfiction as an author.

Okay, so here's some tips for outsourcing. Firstly, bad mistake that I've made, don't do this, don't first delegate to your VA, “handle my email.” That is a difficult task and not easy to systematize.

Assign a repeatable task that can be systematized, tracked, and measured. Then allow some time to train the person and track and measure results.Here's an example. So like two months ago, I hired a new virtual assistant, but all I gave her to do is just one task. She only books me on podcasts. Then now that she's got the system down, I could give her more tasks, but how do I measure her results?

Like most people have virtual assistants who are working remotely. It's hard to know if they're working ten hours, or one hour, forty hours. So I told her just track how many podcasts you book.

So I know how many she books per month, I know how many hours she's charging, and we both know that is the criteria by which you will be judged. So that is useful, and now that she's got that down, I could give her some other tasks to do.

Or another example, I thought this was a rather good use of the strategic. I've got strategic, activator, learner, relator, maximizer, and strategic in Clifton Strengths. So I use some of those skills.

When I wanted to hire a cover designer for Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, I wanted to have a great cover. But what does it really matter what I think is a great cover? What matters is what kind of covers are actually selling in fantasy.

So I reverse engineered it, and you can do this too. I looked at independently published fantasy books that were best sellers, using K-lytics as the research to give me that data.

Then I looked at those books, and I looked at their covers, and I looked inside the ones that I liked the covers for the cover designer, and then I contacted that cover designer.

So that was more effortful than maybe going through Reedsy, or 99designs or DesignCrowd or Upwork, but the result is an award-winning cover that hit the market's bullseye. So those are two little tips that I think listeners can find useful.

Joanna: How do you find people to help you? How did you find that VA?Aurora: I asked my friends, who have you worked with as VA that that you'd recommend?

Joanna: Okay, so personal recommendations.

Aurora: I have had actually really good success. I have a great assistant that I found on Upwork who does a lot of behind the scenes. There's so many formatting, reformatting, and re-uploading books and covers, and tweak this, and oh no, we won another award, put that on the thing.

So I have somebody that has done that for me. I've done many covers on Upwork. I have another cover designer I work with on Reedsy for a series of legal thrillers that I'm working with the client Michael Stockham on. You know, he's a New York Times bestselling cover designer.

I think the best thing is not to try to find one person to do everything, but zero in on what is a repeatable task that you need done, and who is the best person to do it.Joanna: This is definitely one of my weaknesses. I do have some people, and I have had other people over the years, but when it's like, well, who's the best person to do this? It's often, well I am, clearly I'm the best person.

Aurora: I want to comment on that. Yes, we have to get over that. Like I noticed with myself, I am a recovering perfectionist, and still only partly recovered. So it does trip me up. Like I know I would be the best person.

I wouldn't be the best person to do a cover design, but I would be the best person to book myself on podcasts. I wanted to be on Joanna Penn's podcast, so I reached out to her personally because it mattered to me.

We have to get over that because there's only so many hours in the day. If your time is worth $500 an hour or $1,500 an hour, as Joanna Penn's is probably, then if you're doing $20 an hour tasks, this is not a wise sacrifice.

We are sacrificing doing a great job at something, say Joanna Penn is the only one who can write her thrillers, nobody else can do that. So if she's also, I don't know, uploading audios to have her podcast broadcast widely, and she could delegate that, that would be better.

Joanna: That would be better. Actually, it's really funny, as we record this, I have just finally outsourced my podcast production process, only after 15 years.

Aurora: Okay, okay.

Joanna: So I get a point for outsourcing. My cleaner was here today, so I mean, this is another point.

It doesn't have to be that you outsource stuff around your author business. For me, paying for a cleaner means that I can spend that time working on my book.So I feel like there are different things we can do in our lives to value the things that we can do. I mean, sometimes you do have to bootstrap things. People might not have the money.

One of the first things I did when I started out as an author is I did hire a bookkeeper. I was like, I am not reconciling all of these things, like that is not something I want to do.

So my first virtual assistant was a bookkeeper. So I feel like we do this one thing at a time, but as you get more into practice, you can do it more.

Aurora: Another quick little tip, like I find myself sometimes feeling annoyed and resentful when I'm uploading a book, again, to KDP because the cover art designer, I don't know, had a typo or something.

Then I catch myself, I'm like, “Aurora, you're choosing to do this yourself because you love this fantasy project. It really matters to you, and you want to baby it along until it gets a little bit more life.” So like I coach myself to be grateful in that moment.

If I notice a pattern of ongoing, “Ugh, I can't believe I'm doing this,” it's time for me to look for somebody else to do that. For example, my son totally made my day because he did a whole bunch of art for the fantasy series on NightCafe, and the images blew me away.

It gave me this surge of creativity about the project. He's got a bachelor in Game Art and Design, so Bachelor of Science, so he knows how to do cover art and to do much more quickly than I do. It gave me such a surge. So there can be a lot of value in in delegating as well.

Joanna: Yes, I definitely outsource my cover design. Although I am having fun with AI art as well. I think NightCafe has a lot of AI tools. Super fun.

Just coming back on that, the kind of outsourcing, returning to the screenwriting and pitching things.

Now, I think most authors, like 99% of authors, would like an agent to pitch their projects, even if they're an independent author. That can be a difficult sell because with most literary agents, you're pitching them for the whole book, for all the publishing and things like that. How are you managing that as an independent author?

Aurora: Like you, I have freedom as one of my top values. Actually, it's my top value. I think it is for both of us. So in the book, Turn Words Into Wealth, I go in depth about why I believe that independent publishing and independent pitching, and getting over this whole thought that you need a big publisher or you need an agent, is the best strategy.

So in my experience, it's harder for you, or for anyone, to pitch an agent than to pitch the project. So I think, in my experience, the most valuable skill is to learn how to use your words, so that the right words, at the right time, can change your life when you say them to the right people.

Rather than get caught up in the like 1990 mindset that you need an agent or you need a big publisher, why not learn how to pitch. Then maybe you'll join me next year at the Banff Film and Television Festival, or join me at Napier, or join me in Cannes, and pitch it.

Nobody is going to be better at pitching your project than you are, but you do need to practice and decide that it's worth your time. Just really quick on that, it is worth your time.

There's a really great book called Significant Objects. They put one hundred different objects on eBay, with or without story that added significance. It wasn't a pitch, it was a significance. For example, “These are my grandmother's pot mitts. I remember coming home from school and she would bake us chocolate chip cookies, and it was amazing.”

There's no value to me in buying those pot mitts because you had cookies from your grandma, but it added significance, and the value increase was 27-fold. So adding a story adds value to the listener. I mean, I've shared a few stories today with Joanna Penn. Probably one of them is going to stick with you, I don't know which one.

If it's worth the time for somebody like Steve Jobs to practice his Apple launch pitch and presentation for three weeks when he is running a huge company, then I think it's worth all of our time as authors to get good at pitching what we're up to.

Joanna: Do you have any resources that you recommend, in terms of books or courses around pitching particularly?Aurora: I really like the book Pitch Anything by Oren Klaff. I also like what you just said about gratitude and you recording it on audio. Record yourself on video or audio, and you'll kind of notice if you pay attention that, oh, I talked too long about that. Then get it tighter and tighter.

It's one of the things I do with my clients. Like one of my clients yesterday, he's got a 10-minute meeting with Universal or something, I think it was a big company anyway. So he's practiced what is he going to say in that 10 minutes.

So when you learn about neuroscience, I studied neuroscience, you want to understand the process of how to pitch something. So there's basically three steps because you need to address the three different brain portions that we have.

So he rehearsed this with me yesterday. You can rehearse with yourself or with a friend. Basically, the first thing to do is address the croc brain. Then second thing to do is address the midbrain. Then the third thing to do is you can then address the cerebral cortex.

Most people, especially educated people, try to just address the cerebral cortex. It's the verbal equivalent of sending a complete stranger an Excel spreadsheet by email. They're not going to open it.

So the simple analogy is the croc brain is the ancient reptilian brain. It's looking for, is this sexy? Is this exciting? Is this glittery? Is it something to mate with or snack on? Is it attractive? So that would be the equivalent of your subject line in an email.

So for Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, that equivalent to that is, you know, it's like Harry Potter meets Doctor Who. Those are two of the very best fantasy bestsellers of all time. Doctor Who was the longest running TV series, just as an aside.

Or with the book, Turn Words into Wealth, the title is addressing the croc brain. It's kind of like, what is this about? So people who are interested in turning their words into wealth were like, okay, tell me more. So your first step addressing the croc brain should be very quick, a couple of seconds.

The second step is to address the midbrain. Human beings survived for so long because we were not alone. We survived as tribes, as communities, as families. We are hyper vigilant for social status.

So for example, even being on this podcast with Joanna Penn, it creates social status because Joanna thinks I'm worth talking to. Conversely, if you happen to know me, I think Joanna is worth talking to. So that enhances both of our social status.

When you're pitching your book, you want to address the second thing next, the social status. So for Turn Words Into Wealth, I say that it's won Outstanding Nonfiction Book of the Year in its category, which is publishing.

For Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, I say that it won the American Fiction Award Best Preteen Book in 2023, and it also won the Reader’s Choice Award in 2023. Then in 2024, it was a finalist in the UK Wishing Shelf, which is really cool because they have 150 kids actually read the books.

Okay, so for whatever your project or book is, what is the second step for you? How could you indicate that other people who are awesome think it's good?

For example, my first published book, From Heartbreak to Happiness, Dr. Wayne Dyer endorsed it. He said, “I read every page of this beautiful diary. It touched my heart, and I'm sure it will impact yours.” Okay, so each of those is an example of doing the second step around the midbrain.

Then the third step, now that you've got people listening, then you can go into more depth. Either give them the synopsis or the plot summary, or whatever you'd like to do with that.

So for Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, it would be: Anna is a 13-year-old girl who wants to be an actress. She grew up in Los Angeles. Her father is a very busy and distracted film producer who's off to shoot a movie in Africa.

So he sends his daughter Anna and his son Zachary to London to be with his brother and to go to boarding school while he's busy shooting a movie. So they arrived in London, they're all excited. They want to see the Tower of London, but there's something even more interesting in their uncle's garage.

It's this experimental car. He says, “Just stay away from the experimental car, I've got to go out for a bit.” Of course, that's like a magnet. The kids jump in the experimental car, and Anna, who is an optimist and a little bit reckless, fiddles with it and pushes the button to go on a random joy ride.

This takes the kids off the planet Earth to another planet entirely in the multiverse. When they land, they get into trouble immediately because their vehicle is out of fuel. And oh, no, they happen to land on somebody and apparently kill her.

This gives them instant friends because the person they killed is notoriously evil, and instant enemies because other people are out to get vengeance. So then the rest of the story is about will Anna be able to get back to planet Earth?

Her brother gets kidnapped, will she be able to save him? Will the forces of evil on Telesora be overcome by Anna and her brother? Or will the reverse happen, and we will never see the kids again? So that's what Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse is about.

So the third step is the longest step, where you give a bit more detail about whatever you're up to. So between each one of these three steps, you want to pause so that the other person has a chance to say something so that it's more of a conversation.

So I go into more detail in Turn Words Into Wealth about how to use the neuroscience of communication, but hopefully that made sense.

Joanna: Yes, I think it's so important. As you say, this is a preteen book, and then someone says, well, actually, I'm looking for horror books. Then that's probably not a good match.

Often I feel people are pitching and pitching, but they're not thinking about the person on the other side. So as you say, even you can say one line. Then are they actually interested or do they completely blank?

I want to come back on social status.

Have you found at all that being an independent author has meant that you have a lower social status?Or has it just not even been an issue with this?

Aurora: I used to really worry about that and fretted that that was the case. I'm over it now. It's whatever it is, right? I feel like I have status for other things, but I'm not a Colleen Hoover, I'm not a New York Times bestselling author. There's things I don't have.

For all of the listeners, there's things that you're strong at. I have launched multiple seven-figure businesses from scratch. That's pretty kick ass. I've got a background in film and television, and that's pretty kick ass. I have success knowing how to start something from scratch and make it work, that's awesome. Plus, I have written ten books. That's quite a few.

So I am not willing to care more about what other people think of me than what I think of me. For me, I'm a very independent, very entrepreneurial, freedom focused person. Why would I want to have a publisher to dilute or mute or change my message? I don't.

In fact, in the book Turn Words Into Wealth, I give a number of examples, but the one that I liked the most is David Goggins, who wrote the book Can't Hurt Me. He's a Navy Seal and a long-distance runner, a pretty amazing athlete.

He met with an agent in New York who told him that if he self-published his book, he'd be lucky to sell 5000 copies. He decided to self-publish, and he's dyslexic, so he had to hire a ghostwriter to write it.

Then he went on over a thousand podcasts to market it, and the result is he probably made $20 million from his book and his audiobook. He sold over a million copies of the book in the first year and 600,000 copies of the audiobook.

If he had gone with traditional wisdom, he would have seen a fraction of that, and maybe he wouldn't have been able to afford to spend so much time doing the podcast.

Why give up 90% of the revenue when you still have to do 90% of the work?Joanna: Yes. I mean, there are pros and cons for everyone. I didn't know David Goggins had gone indie. That's really interesting.

We're almost out of time, so I do want to just come to a final thing. So in Turn Words Into Wealth you say, “There is more opportunity and more danger than ever before due to exponential technological, social, and economic change.”

Now, obviously, I talk a lot about surfing this wave of change. AI, in particular, direct sales, and all of this. So given you're always learning, always changing direction—

What are your recommendations for making the most of this extraordinary, but also difficult, time?Aurora: Well, I have a couple of tips. First tip, keep listening to The Creative Penn podcast.

Joanna: I didn't even pay you for this!

Aurora: It's true. It's a godsend for leaning into this with excitement instead of terror.

Secondly, have fun. For example, those NightCafe images that my son did yesterday for Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, like they made my day. They were so much fun, and now they've sparked a bunch of things that I'm going to write, just by seeing the images. I also put them on TikToks.

Allocate time for learning. This is something I needed to coax myself into because I would get impatient. When I shifted my mindset and leaned into my learner Clifton Strengths and allocate time for learning, then that helped me reframe it.

Instead of a frustrating thing that I had to learn, like a good thing that I had to learn. So a couple of things that I am playing with, pick one of these maybe, and do them. There's Authors.ai, PickFu.com, Descript. Joanna has talked about ChatGPT, and SudoWrite, and ProWritingAid, or NightCafe. Like pick one, and maybe spend a little time playing with it.

Joanna: I feel like leaning into that curiosity, there are so many things to look at. I mean, for example, music. I'm not into music at all, but a lot of authors are, and there's so many music discovery tools and creation tools that I know people are playing with. That's not my bag. I don't do that.

I play with the image stuff as well, and of course, the various writing tools. It's really listening to your curiosity. If you hate something, don't force yourself.

Do the things that are interesting to you. It might be a challenge at first, but you might discover things you really enjoy.Aurora: Exactly right. The same thing with marketing. Don't try to do all kinds of possible marketing. Double down on the ones that make sense for you.

Like I love talking on podcasts, so I do podcasts. I do TikTok, and I do Kickstarter. That's it. Those are my three things. I can't do everything, so I picked the three things that are the most fun or interesting for me.

Joanna: Absolutely.

Where can people find you, and your books, and everything you do online?Aurora: Oh, thanks for asking, Joanna. Well, I am launching the second book in my Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse series. I would love, love, love if people would follow me on Kickstarter.

You can go to MagicMysteryAndTheMultiverse.com, and it will redirect you to Kickstarter when Kickstarter is live. Otherwise it will give you other goodies when Kickstarter is not live. Just a little tip. If you do a Kickstarter, do a redirect so that you can take advantage of sending people to somewhere else after the Kickstarter is not live.

My book Turn Words Into Wealth, which we talked about today, is available on Amazon. If you'd like some gift videos and the gift Thought Leader Launch starter library, you can get that on my website AuroraWinter.com. Thanks so much, Joanna. It was really fun to do this podcast with you.

Joanna: Thanks so much for coming on, Aurora. That was great.

The post Turn Words Into Wealth With Aurora Winter first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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What are the pros and cons of selling direct and building an ecommerce business for your books? How can you use click testing on Meta to help refine your creative and book marketing ideas? Steve Pieper explains in this interview.

In the intro, The Hotsheet with Jane Friedman; 20 ways you should be using AI in publishing [PerfectBound]; Artificial Intelligence? No, Collective Intelligence [Ezra Klein with Holly Herndon]; AI may take our jobs, but not our creativity [Claire Silver on The TED AI Show].

Plus, De-Extinction of the Nephilim; my webinar on Discovery Writing as part of the Kickstarter – you can buy it in the bundle or just buy the ebook and get the webinar as an Add-On. Only available until 18 June at JFPenn.com/destiny; Writing modern thrillers based on ancient relics and historical places; Ancient Heroes Podcast;

Today's show is sponsored by my patrons! Join my community and get access to extra videos on writing craft, author business, AI and behind the scenes info, plus an extra Q&A show a month where I answer Patron questions. It's about the same as a black coffee a month! Join the community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Steve Pieper is a USA Today bestselling thriller author under the name Lars Emmerich. He's also an entrepreneur and business consultant, specializing in digital marketing and selling direct with his course, AMMO, Author Marketing Mastery through Optimization.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Why more indie authors are embracing selling direct
• How the emergence of courses has helped mature the indie author market
• Differences in the process of selling a print book on Amazon vs. Shopify
• Cash flow management when selling direct
• When does it make sense for an author to start selling direct?
• Using click testing to test a book idea with your target audience
• Steve's Click Testing and Direct Sales courses — If you're interested, please consider using my affiliate link and supporting the show: www.TheCreativePenn.com/clicktesting

You can find Steve at AMMOauthor.com and his books at Lars.buzz.

Transcript of Interview with Steve PieperJoanna: Steve Pieper is a USA Today bestselling thriller author under the name Lars Emmerich. He's also an entrepreneur and business consultant, specializing in digital marketing and selling direct with his course, AMMO, Author Marketing Mastery through Optimization. So welcome back to the show, Steve.

Steve: Thank you very much. It's such a pleasure to be here, Jo.

Joanna: So you were last on the show in January 2023 when we went into your background. So we're just going to jump into the topic today.

It seems like selling direct has gone mainstream in the author community since you were last here.

What do you think has happened to make authors embrace selling direct in a much bigger way over the last 18 months?Steve: It's a great question. I think a few things have combined to make it more mainstream, as you say. I think the first thing is that Amazon has effectively capped eBook sales prices at $9.99, and nobody's capped the advertising expenses at any particular number.

So it becomes more and more important, as ad costs to generate interest in your books continue to increase along with everything else—aside from eBook prices—it's more and more important to be able to track your metrics.

You want to be able to reach people who are purchasers, as opposed to people who are just nearly kind of curious.

Those things are made possible when you sell direct because your store knows exactly who purchases from you. You get their email address, you get their name, your store processes their credit card.

That information can be fed back to Meta, so Facebook and Instagram, to make your ads operate more efficiently and to bring you new purchasers more profitably. So I think that's the first part of it.

I think the second part is that we've heard plenty of stories of some fairly high-profile authors having trouble with their Amazon accounts, often through no fault of their own.

Whenever you run a big enterprise, such as Amazon, you have to pay attention to the quality of the listings and the quality of the accounts. You also have to deal with people who are trying to abuse the accounts to make a quick buck.

The only way to do that at scale is algorithmically, which means the machines are making decisions about whose account to close and leave open. Often Amazon doesn't even ask the authors what was happening, you just find that your account has been closed. So I think those things have combined to make direct sales a more viable option for people.

The third reason is that we've noticed, and this has been true since I first started selling directly in 2017 —

Whenever you advertise for your direct sales system, there's this beautiful thing called a cross-channel effect.This is where your book advertisements that point to your store so that people can purchase from you, they produce sales through your store, but they also get people excited who are diehard Amazon customers, for example.

So they might see your ad for your store, like what they see, but just prefer to buy from Amazon because of convenience or familiarity or whatever else.

So it's kind of a two-for-one deal, and in some cases, like a three- or four-for-one kind of deal, depending on who you are, in terms of advertising dollars and sales that come in.

Joanna: Yes, just coming back on that Amazon cap on $9.99. At London Book Fair, I actually talk to an Amazon person, and said, “Look, it's been capped at $9.99 for like forever. A while ago, it wasn't that big a deal, but it is a real big deal now.”

I mean, I write nonfiction as well, and nonfiction, in particular, can take a lot higher prices on eBooks. So I agree with you that this is a bit of an issue. Do you think they'll ever change that ebook cap? I mean, inflation is hitting everything, it seems, except eBook sales prices.

Steve: Exactly. I don't know for the life of me why they haven't yet. It seems in their best interest, as well, because they're taking 30% of the sale price.

So I don't know what economics they're looking at, what data they have. I mean, I can't imagine they have much data on sales performance above $9.99 because you earn half the royalty above $9.99. I can't imagine many authors at all have chosen to take that route.

So I have no idea why they haven't made those adjustments yet. I mean, I think it's far more appropriate that if there were a cap at that royalty rate, it seems to me that it would be on par with what you typically see traditionally published eBooks priced at, like around $14.99.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. So that will be interesting if they ever change that. I guess they're still trying to push people to subscription for eBooks.

I also wondered whether another thing that shifted is almost the maturity of the indie author market, and also the emergence of different ways to learn. I mean, your course has been around for a number of years now, but there are other people starting to teach.

[More on selling direct here.]

There are, I guess, even people like myself being more vocal about it, even though I sold my first PDF online in 2008, but it certainly wasn't the way you do it. So do you think there's also maybe this confidence? I mean, it was 2007 when the Kindle launched, so we're at 15 years of an indie author market now.

Steve: I absolutely think the indie author market has matured.I think in the beginning, the people who did really well in the early days of the Kindle, were those folks who had a catalogue and had their rights returned to them, or who had repurchased their rights.

They had a dozen or fifteen or so books to place on the platform, and they were midlist authors in sort of a traditionally published ecosystem. They found tremendous purchase in the new eBook ecosystem, and there were some really high-quality authors there.

I think what's happened over the next, like you say, 15ish years in the meantime, is that many, if not most, really high-quality authors, they're just not seeing much economic advantage to the traditionally published route. The royalty split is not attractive.

There's a lot of authors who are in our community who are doing extremely well, who at one point were traditionally published, and their careers only began accelerating when they got their rights back and when they became their own business owner and their own business manager for their career.

Joanna: Let's get into the benefits and the challenges of selling direct.You mentioned the data that you get and the cross-channel effect, but what are some other things? What are some of the good things, and also some of the challenges?

Steve: So once you start getting into the advertisement game, and with sixty million titles available 24/7, 365, at least on Amazon and many other retailers, it's really hard to have anyone discover your books unless you're actively advertising.

Or if you're spending a tremendous amount of effort to build a brand, a personal author brand, that also works. It tends to take three to five to seven years to do.

As soon as you get into that ecosystem, you are not just a writer, you are now an entrepreneur. You have to run a real business there. You have to pay very close attention to your cash flow and you need to be a professional about how you test and create your ads.

The other thing that happens is that as soon as you start spending real money to bring eyeballs to your books, it rapidly exposes any weaknesses in your product quality. The first inkling you might have that things aren't quite right is that people just aren't buying your books.

So what you find along the way is that you have to pay a good bit of attention to exactly how you're presenting books, both on your Amazon product detail page, but also if you're doing direct sales, on your Shopify pages and your sales pages leading to a Shopify purchase.

So it opens the door to business operations, and many authors just want to do the thing, we just want to write.

Again, in a world with sixty million books, it's fine if you just want to write because you love writing, but —

If you have commercial aspirations, if you'd like to make a living or you'd like to make additional money on the side, it takes a more disciplined approach and more methodical approach.That can certainly be a challenge for authors who are already busy, or sometimes holding down day jobs, and raising kids, and all of those things.

Joanna: So let's come back on this. I feel like for many years, we did say that we were entrepreneurs. I certainly did. I have a book, Business for Authors: How to be an Author Entrepreneur. So I did use the word entrepreneur.

When I look at now how to run a Shopify store and essentially an ecommerce business, I think, actually, we didn't know what we were doing before. So just on that, the process flow of—let's just take print, I think print is a really good example.

If you sell a print book on Amazon, compared to selling a print book on your Shopify store, what's the difference?Because I feel like a lot of people don't understand the difference.

Steve: That's a terrific question. So hidden behind the Amazon paperback purchase is also an Amazon logistics operation to print a copy of your book that is just sold.

Or you may have negotiated a wholesale order with a third-party printer and shipped those books to one of Amazon's warehouses for them to fulfill and pick from the shelves and package and ship to your customer.

All of that's happening behind the scenes if you are selling paperbacks on Amazon, but you have to actually understand how to do those things and set them up so that they function if you're selling paperbacks from your Shopify store.

You should, especially now, we've already talked about the delta between book prices and how they've gone, compared to advertising costs and how they've gone. So depending on your genre, pretty much anything other than romance, you'd really need to be very serious about a paperback operation as well. So it opens a few different discussions.

There are print on demand services, and depending on where you're at, they can make a great deal of sense logistically. They do tend to be quite expensive because they have to do all the logistical things, but also run their company, and provide profit for their shareholders, and all of those things.

So you can hook those up to your Shopify store. such that whenever an order comes in, they're just fulfilled behind the scenes for you by a print on demand company.

The difficulty with that arrangement is that depending on your format size and your page count, your profit margins can be prohibitively thin, and it can be difficult to recoup costs.

The other way that folks go and the other things to think about is to negotiate a wholesale order to drive your per book cost down. That increases your gross profit per sale. So for every sale at a given price for your paperback, you make more money because your expenses are lower.

What that means is that you either have to fulfill that purchase yourself, meaning you have to pack and ship, and many of our authors do that. Or they're also author assistants who will pack and ship on your behalf.

Then there are also third-party logistics companies that will warehouse your titles until sold, and then when they're sold, they will pull them from their shelves in the warehouse and pack and ship them.

There's a host of considerations that you suddenly have to think about if you're selling directly to your readers.It sounds scary, and it certainly can be. It really helps to have a few tools to help you calculate costs and make heads or tails of the process of finding the right source for your books at a good compromise between cost and quality, and also fulfillment time.

You have to look carefully at the prices in your genre to understand under what circumstances it's likely to be profitable for you.

So as you mentioned, it's suddenly a whole host of things that are really common to an ecommerce business, but have not been as common to the author world, especially the indie author business, over the last five-ish years.

Joanna: I think this is really important because I've had more and more emails recently saying —

“Oh, it's really hard to sell a book on Amazon now. Oh, it's really hard to sell direct. So what should I do?”I'm like, you could try pitching traditional publishing. I think it's really important that we emphasize that we are running this ecommerce business by selling direct.

If you do want to work with a traditional publisher, then there is a reason they get most of the money. It's because they also have those logistics set up and all of that.

So I do feel like it's a choice to go this way. I use Bookvault here in the UK, and they have great print prices. So I find that I actually can make more on selling a paperback than I even do on some of my eBooks, in terms of profits. I think this is very exciting.

[Click here to go to the interview with Alex from BookVault.]

So I guess I would say to encourage people is that once you get it set up—this is the other thing, isn't it—once you get your head around this, you get it set up, it is just a sort of plug and play the next book.

I found there's a lot of work upfront, and then the work is much less going forward.Steve: That's absolutely right. Once you've figured out how to get it uploaded to your store or to the service, then it's pretty smooth sailing.

Bookvault.app has a tremendous reputation in the UK, and they're in the process of expanding over into the US. What they're finding over here is that they're subject to the existing printing and shipping infrastructure in the United States, which leaves a lot to be desired.

The distances that have to be covered here in the US between customer locations and business locations, those change the economics quite a bit for those printing companies. So it's a bit harder.

Here in the US, the print on demand company primarily, at least with a terrific Shopify interface, primarily is Lulu. I have been extremely happy with their quality. They are expensive, and it does eat into profit margins.

So Bookvault is a beautiful solution in the UK, currently. There's not currently a beautiful solution, at my page count, in the US for print on demand. It's doable, and a lot depends on the quality of your marketing assets.

A lot depends on your marketing assets in general. Like a terrific book is table stakes to be a professional author, and a terrific marketing system and process is also table stakes to be a successful indie author today, I believe.

Joanna: I kind of think it always has been, but certainly it's just changed. The things that used to work more easily back in the day, now, as you say, are more expensive, or just things have changed, or there's more books.

Let's just talk about one of the very, very good things about selling direct, which is how fast you get the money. This is such a big deal. I feel like people don't understand it.

If you're traditionally published, you might not get paid for months or sometimes years. As an indie author, you still only get paid 60 days later, 90 days later, sometimes longer depending on the contract and the system.

I have my Shopify set up to pay me every day. Now, I know some people don't have that, they have it every week or whatever, but I really like making money every day.

So talk a bit about the cash flow with the print books. Because that's also different in terms of when you get the money and who pays for things.

Steve: Absolutely, it's so important, so critical, not to have to carry your own advertising costs for two to three months. If you spend $1 today on an ad and it produces a purchase, you want that dollar back because your credit card company is going to ask for it when your credit card bill is due.

If you're waiting that 60 to 90 day window for Amazon to issue their royalty payment to you for today's sale, well, you have to float that cost.

So that either means that you can't advertise to your full capacity, you can't sell as many books as you would otherwise be able to sell, because you can't afford personally to keep paying these ad costs without getting cash flow back.

So it's a much slower ramp up to selling books at scale when you have to wait up to three months to get paid. Whereas if you buy your ads today, and today or tomorrow, like the next business day, that money shows up in your bank account.

I'm like you, I want I want that money deposited every single day. I love those deposits. I don't like them sitting wherever they're at, I like them in my account. So you can pay off that credit card bill for your advertisements every single month, and it just makes everything much healthier.

The other thing is that if you're waiting for royalty payments to come in, and you're purchasing your own copies of your paperbacks or your hard covers to sell, those orders come out of pocket while you're waiting for those royalties to come back.

So again, it's just a much slower and much less responsive scaling capacity. That's important because there are seasons in an author's year, and also in an author's career, when you catch a bit of a flyer where there's a lot of demand suddenly for what you're offering.

It's really important to be able to take advantage of that, but if you're waiting around three months to get the cash available to purchase more books to sell to the people who want them right now, that's a really frustrating position to be in.

The cash flow management in an author career is a thousand times easier when you make a sale today and the money shows up tomorrow in your account.Joanna: Yes, and as you say, if you do hit some big thing, like I know someone who had a really massive day on TikTok, and say you get a thousand orders for your paperbacks through to your store today, you get that money, but you also have to pay the printer.

So one of the confusions that I feel people have is that at the moment, you don't have to “pay” for Amazon to print your book if you go through KDP print because they take it out of the sales. So you never have to pay them out of your pocket.

Whereas when we're selling direct, we're paying for the printing, and then a customer pays us. So I feel like this is so important, this cashflow. If you're doing a massive campaign, then just remember this cash flow management. When does the money come in? When does it go out? Again, once you get it sorted, you can manage it.

When in an author's journey might they consider selling direct through your methods?You're mainly talking about Shopify, which is quite different to Kickstarter. Some people might be on Payhip, some people might sell at a local school, for example. So at what sort of points should authors consider this?

Steve: That's a terrific question. The platform that you're selling from, whether it's Shopify, or Payhip, or Samcart, there's a bunch of them out there, the considerations are quite similar.

What we're seeing across our community, and we're close to 1200 or 1300 authors strong in our community at the moment, and we have some folks who are doing really well and can generate a purchase of a bundle of their books for $6, $7, or $8 in advertising costs. Those tend to be outliers.

What we're seeing on average, is that the average cost to bring in a new paying customer is between $12 and $20. That's a range, it's not like Author A gets good sales at $12, and Author B gets sales at $20. That's a range that every author experiences throughout the week or day or month.

There's a lot of fluctuation running any kind of business. You can tell this just by looking at your Amazon purchases back in the dashboard. Some day you sell more books than others, and it's the same when you're selling directly. So that $12 to $20 customer acquisition cost, it's relatively agnostic to the advertising platform that you're using.

We use Meta because they're by far the best. I test these every year, spend thousands of dollars, and I have always wound up at the same place. Facebook and Instagram are where book buyers mostly are, at least from an ad perspective.

When you have to recoup a $12 to $20 customer acquisition cost, that dictates how you need to structure your business. So you have to have enough products to sell to make that money back in profit, and then some, so that you keep selling for your store.

So if you're a novelist, and you're selling one or two titles so far, it's really rare to do that profitably anywhere, including on Amazon, but it's really rare to do it profitably if you're selling directly due to those acquisition cost reasons as well.

The number of books that you have is important. Each of them have to be professional quality, professional grade. They have to be so good that your readers know that they're going to love them and tell their friends about them.

So that's what you're aiming for product quality-wise, and you need a bunch of products that way. So if you write in the romance genre, we typically see around eight to ten titles being sort of the price of entry for all the goodness that comes from selling directly to your readers.

In other genres where there are typically longer page counts and a slightly less voracious reader community, we see in the neighborhood of five to eight titles.

It's useful to know too, like what's a sustainable number of titles. A good metric for that is, I like to think of it in terms of looking across our community and asking myself, what's the smallest number of titles that an author has had that they have used to sell over a million dollars’ worth of their books?

What's magical about a million dollars? It's just a nice milestone, but what it really tells you is that their setup is resilient. So it's not like they have a good week, and then everything falls apart.

To sell a million dollars’ worth of your books, you're in pretty rare air, which means that you have a system that is working really well for you. You have the right number of high-quality titles to work for you.

So if you are a novelist, the smallest number of titles that an author has used to sell over a million dollars of their books is eight.

If you're a nonfiction author, this is an interesting one, the smallest number of titles that one of our nonfiction authors has used to sell over a million dollars’ worth of their books is three.

That's a little bit misleading because it was one main title with a workbook and an associated poetry book. So it was like a suite of three products, but really the vanguard was led by that one individual title.

So I mention that just to give you a sense for what you can expect if you're looking to build a sustainable business that produces enough cash flow to be really interesting and really worth your time. So those are good numbers I think to aim for. If you are topically on point in your nonfiction title, that can be done with a single title, but it's really rare.

If you are a novelist, then I would be looking more toward five to eight as really the point when you can expect, if you're doing a good job, testing your marketing assets and elements, and testing your books, and writing high quality professional titles, that's when you can reasonably expect to start doing so profitably in a direct sales context.

Joanna: I'll put a little caveat on this, which is if you have one or two books but you still want to do this, you just can't do big paid ad spend.

If you're building up your author brand slowly, you can sell direct just through driving your own traffic through building an email list, or if you have a podcast like I have had for many years. This is how I've done it. I've moved platforms over the years as things have grown.

I do think that some people are just launching on either Kickstarter or through Shopify, and they don't necessarily have to do a lot of ad spend, they don't have to sell a lot of books. Your course and your system is for the very, very ambitious people who have more books.

That's what we all want, but sometimes if people are starting out now, I wonder if going through building the store and learning the business can also be beneficial, even if they're not expecting the massive sales. Just with the caveat that they're not spending a ton on ads.

Steve: I believe that's absolutely true. That's what I mean by the brand building. Like if you're building a brand through podcasts, and in emails, and newsletters, and appearances at conferences, and media appearances and such, that is absolutely effective. In fact, that's ultimately where all of us need to end up if we really want to grow into a really recognized and successful brand.

I will say that there are certain elements that we teach that are quite important no matter where you are in your author career. So it's not like you should wait to engage with paid ads until you have eight titles or five titles, it's actually kind of tragic to do that.

The reason is that we tend to overestimate the quality and marketability of our own work. So one of the worst situations, and I see it, unfortunately, over and over again, where people come into the community with lots of titles, which need lots of work.

So the way around this is not to ask your friends if they like your work or not, to ask your family members if you're going to be a star author, but to —

Test your ideas in front of total strangers who are known to read in your market.This is different than sending a survey out to your email list. It's different to asking people in person for feedback because they're solving a different equation. They're thinking about their relationship with you and your feelings.

So they're not directly answering this question, “Would you buy this right now?” That's the question. You can't ask them directly, you just have to put things in front of them that give them the opportunity to show you, yes or no, how resonant, how effective, your messaging is.

So we do this, and the name of the process is called click testing.

[You can use my affiliate link for the course at www.TheCreativePenn.com/clicktesting]

Click testing has been used in about 75-plus different industries. It's helped to drive over a billion dollars, including $200 million dollars per year in extra revenue.

Click testing is a way to test a number of your ideas very quickly, but also with high fidelity and a pretty high level of precision.One of the things that we discovered—and this is like 800 authors, 6000 tests, 50,000 different individual testing elements—one of the really interesting things that we've discovered is that only about 5% of our ideas are good enough to move forward with profitably. So one idea out of twenty.

An idea might be a hook, or a tagline, or a title, or a subtitle. One idea might also be an image or a cover image.So it's extremely important to de-risk everything you're doing, in my opinion, whether it's advertising to bring traffic to existing titles that you have, or if you're still building your catalogue and still writing, we found that it's quite important to de-risk those future titles by testing your book ideas.

The process, again, that we use to do this is called click testing. It is the foundation of our direct sales program, which is aimed for people, like we talked about, who have a number of high quality titles and want to build a serious ecommerce business around them.

Click testing, on the other hand, benefits and has benefited authors selling anywhere from $0 per month, upwards of a couple million dollars per year. It's actually quite a simple process that just involves running advertisements and treating them in a special way as experiments.

We run them for a brief period of time, and we have a very specific number of impressions that they're shown for. That's just like the number of people who get to see them.

Then we just look at the performance metrics of these little advertisements to guide us to give us an understanding of whether or not that particular idea is worth pursuing either as an advertisement, or even more importantly, worth pursuing at all to make a book out of or to include in your next book.

So the beginning of that process, the direct sales process, actually is click testing. It applies to pretty much anyone at most spots inside of your author career trajectories. Whether you're already selling a lot of books, we've got folks who are multimillion dollar year sellers who have really dramatically improved their profit margins. So they took a lot more home.

Then we've got folks who were beginning who had financially successful titles through testing the ideas and the concepts. It's not just the ideas and concepts, it's also the specific words—as writers, we know this—but it's also the specific words that we use.

So that's a really important way to think, in my opinion. If you want to do this professionally, and if you want your work to be read, it's really important to get midstream and early stream feedback on whether anybody might be interested in reading this book once you're done with it.

Joanna: Yes, and I wanted to talk to you because I have been through the click testing module, and I've always been pretty resistant to this. I tried your course a while back, and it was a lot of data. So I'm not a massive data person, but I did this click testing process, and I actually found it quite fun.

I'll tell you what's different now, and this will help people listening, is ChatGPT. I basically was like, I can't come up with fifteen different taglines, I just can't. But ChatGPT can.My brain can only think of one or two taglines, or maybe I can't think of any. Maybe I can only write 70,000 words, I can't put it all into like a tagline.

So I used ChatGPT to come up with a lot of the variants for the click testing. I put this on my email to you, but I changed the tagline for Spear of Destiny, which as we speak right now has just launched on Kickstarter. It's already funded.

So I mean, who knows whether that tagline made all the difference, but I certainly changed it. When I did the click testing, and I put in whatever it was, fifteen different variants or however many it was, my one, the one I came up with originally, it performed like number eight or something out of the list.

So I switched it to the one that tested better, and I did that to a market that I normally sell to. So this is what's interesting, this was a Kickstarter tagline. This was not necessarily a whole advertising campaign, but it really, really helped me.

I guess the other thing to say, because we talked before about the conversion ads which were more expensive.

These are click ads. So it doesn't cost you that much to do these tests, does it?Steve: No, not at all. In fact, we just run it at a relatively low budget of $30 per day. I recommend six tests. The number is six if you're a novelist or a storyteller, or if you are a nonfiction author who solves problems for people.

So each of those tests last one to two-ish days at a $30 per day ad spend. So the whole thing is done in like two weeks. So maybe you've spent $200 to $300 to de-risk your title, or maybe you've spent $200 to $300 total, to arrive at a really high converting advertisement.

Like you mentioned, the things that you learn about what people like, they're not just useful on the book itself or on the advertisement itself, they're useful everywhere you're interacting with your customers. So in your case, on the Kickstarter page. Also on your product detail page, whether that's on your Amazon product page or on your Shopify product page.

Also, if you're doing lead generation and getting people to sign up for your list, what you discover really resonates and really gets people excited to your click testing, guess what, it also gets them excited on the signup page.

Or if you're bringing people to a sales page in a direct sales scenario for your bundle, or for a trilogy that you're offering in paperback, or whatever, those elements really go a long way toward improving every aspect of your business.

You include them in your emails, you include them if you're making videos, if you're writing blog posts. It really is useful when you find beyond a shadow of a doubt the confluence of your particular voice and what you have to say, and also what resonates with your market.

It's really nice when you feel good about the things you're saying your market, and they really respond to it. So it's a really cool tool that way.

Joanna: Yes, so because we're talking about Meta here, we have to talk about what's been going on recently. So we're recording this at the end of May 2024, and the word in the author community in the last month has been the Metapocalypse, where—

Authors have seen a drop in revenue and effectiveness of Facebook ads. Is this the Metapocalypse?Now, my personal thought is that Meta are rolling out a lot of AI tools, and they're trying to make it easier on us, but these experiments have caused issues. A bit like any of these changes, it's going to have an effect.

Some people have kind of freaked out, gone back into KU with their eBooks, wondering if it will ever come back. What are your thoughts on the short-term, but also the long-term, impact? What will change? What should authors be doing?

Steve: This is such a good question. I've been advertising online since 2003. Back then there wasn't just one search engine, there were like six. So I was advertising on all of them. It was different business and different ecosystems, and they all sort of had their ups and downs.

Then the advent of, first, Facebook, and then Facebook and Instagram ads now under Meta. Those became a real player for us in like the 2015/2016 ballpark, maybe 2014 even. I look back, and about twice a year in some communities someplace, there is the Metapocalypse kind of meme that circulates.

It's really important to understand that in any community of businesses, and authors are no different, at any given moment, we've got authors in our community who are having their best month ever.

Then we have authors in our community—same community, same month, same advertising platform—who are not having good months at all.

There's this continuous up and down in any business, and ours is no different.One of the things that sort of determines which industry takes up the meme, like the sky has fallen in Facebook land, is just which individuals are having a rough month.

If it's somebody with a prominent platform and they're writing about it, or it's somebody who's got a course on something and they're having their turn in the barrel, as they say for a rough month, it can really feel like things are out of control and we need to make drastic changes.

So let me give you a resource that will stop this kind of anecdotal spread of information which may not be accurate. So there are a couple of analytics companies who connect to your Shopify store and they connect to all of the different ad platforms.

So they see every dollar that thousands upon thousands of ecommerce businesses are spending on every relevant ad platform. They see how much a click is costing, what are the click through rates, how much does it cost to bring in a new customer.

Since they have such a broad view across all the advertising platforms that are relevant to ecommerce and across so many different niche ecommerce stores, it actually gives you a real sense of what's going on.

So the resource I'd like to point everybody to is Northbeam.io. So North like the direction, beam like laser beam, Northbeam.io. They have a Media Buyer Newsletter, and what they do is they send out their statistics monthly. So the main meme that the sky has fallen in Meta-land in the book world, that was on the strength of April's results, for better and worse.

It was really interesting because the recent Northbeam media buyer newsletter, where you can see exactly what market share exists on like Meta vs Google vs YouTube vs TikTok, and you can see trends in whether it's become more expensive or less expensive, more profitable or less profitable.

The April 2024 results were better than the April 2023 results. So from that perspective, there was no Metapocalypse this year, which is really interesting. You can see the difference between what happens socially and anecdotally.

You know, we talk to each other, but we don't have the ability to see what's actually happening from a numbers perspective. So when you fold in that data, it really helps you make more informed decisions.

So how would I use this differently? Like if that data came back and said, “Oh, my gosh, April 2024, it was 25% more expensive than it was in 2023. Things really are looking bleak,” I would consider making significant changes to my business, to the structure of it, to the strategy of it.

Given that it came back, actually, April 2024, was better than April 2023, numerically speaking, that's different. Then my action is, okay, it sounds like I just need to work harder to test newer creative. Maybe test newer hooks, new images, things that are resonating now.

Culture moves at a pretty quick pace, so things that worked, they work for a shorter period of time now. Things are moving so quickly in media and culture, so it's important to be able to make strategic decisions like that with actual information.

It's not like pages and pages and reams and reams of data, it's usually summarized just in one chart, and it fits on your phone. So I recommend that everybody who's buying ads in the book world, subscribe to that Northbeam.io. I'm not affiliated with them, I just think they're awesome. Northbeam.io, and it's called the Media Buyer Newsletter. So that'll keep you from making emotional knee jerk reactions that you could live to regret.

Joanna: I think it comes back to what we were saying at the beginning around being an entrepreneur and having a real business. The reality is, it's not all up and to the right forever. Unfortunately, not everything is like that all the time.

It goes up and down and things change, and that's part of the fun of it, too. I mean, if it was always the same, then it would be so boring. So this is certainly interesting, and as I said, I find the course great. You're a great teacher, and you've recently redone the whole course.

Tell people a bit about the course and who it's most suitable for.Steve: Thank you, I appreciate that. So there are two programs, and the front door for everybody is click testing because I've just seen almost universally positive results in a whole bunch of different industries.

The reason that the results are positive is because you're learning more about what your market wants, like what do the people actually want and respond to. So it doesn't matter where you're at.

If you're working on that first book, you would definitely want some information that your market is excited about the idea that you're spending so much time, and effort, and energy, and probably money and love, to produce.

Also, if you're selling well, but would like to increase your profit margins, or you'd like to be able to advertise more aggressively to produce more sales, but to do that, you have to be able to advertise more effectively, click testing is for you also.

Like I say it's, it's helped people who have zero books and are making $0 per month, and it's helped people who have many books and who are really big names, not just an indie community, but out in the author world.

It's improved the number of books they're able to sell and the profit margin they're able to sell it at.So that's called Click Testing for Authors. That's the introductory program. It's the foundation for everything, and the reason it's the foundation for everything that we do inside of our processes is because it teaches you what your customers like. That's really important.

For a subset of folks who have the number and quality of titles that we spoke about earlier, there's a follow-on program called Direct Sales for Authors. Those two modules together are inside of version four of AMMO.

Direct Sales for Authors really hones in on the nuts and bolts of setting up a direct sales system. It gives you a bunch of tools to help you calculate your paperback costs, for example.

That can be a hassle, so we put some spreadsheets together to do all that math for you because people who write aren't always people who love to do math. So that's taken care of for you.

We also walk you through the process of getting your assets to work profitably. It's one thing to set everything up so that it functions, i.e. when you put your credit card in, a book comes out on the other end of that. That's one thing, but getting that process to operate profitably is another thing entirely.

It's a whole process in and of itself, and there's some art and science to it. So we provide tools for that, for those folks who are interested in building a direct sales business and interested in doing so at an exciting scale based on the number of books that you have.

So there's two programs. The first one is Click Testing for Authors. That's for everybody under the sun who writes books, in my opinion.

Then the Direct Sales for Authors is a more focused program for those folks who are in a position to most immediately benefit from a serious direct sales effort.

Joanna: Fantastic. If people would like to use my affiliate link, I'm a happy affiliate. I have done the course, and I think it's great. It is thecreativepenn.com/clicktesting, all one word.

Where else can people find it? I always like to give people the actual link because, of course, we don't expect people to go through my affiliate. Also—

Tell people where your books are, as well.Because you are a real author, and I think that's really important.

Steve: Yes, thank you. So please do use Joanna's affiliate link. Let's support Jo's podcast and your efforts in everything that you have done for our community for all these years.

If that's not your thing, perfectly fine. AMMOauthor.com. A-M-M-O like Author Marketing Mastery through Optimization. AMMOauthor.com is sort of the front door. If you want to check out my trashy spy thrillers, they're at Lars.buzz. L-A-R-S-dot-B-U-Z-Z.

Joanna: Or “zed, zed” if you are British.

Steve: Depending if you're on the correct side of the pond or the incorrect side of the pond.

Joanna: Right. Well, thanks so much for your time, Steve. That was great.

Steve: Thank you so much, Jo. I really appreciate it.

The post Click Testing Ideas And Selling Direct With Steve Pieper first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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In this video, I explain what Kickstarter is and why I'm publishing Spear of Destiny there first.

Hello everyone. I'm thriller author J.F. Penn, and today I'm talking about what is Kickstarter and why am I launching my latest thriller Spear of Destiny on the platform?

Well, if you've never heard of Kickstarter or never used it before, it's a crowdfunding platform where you can support creators to bring their projects to life.

It's a different way of shopping for interesting and unusual books and products. Like a pre-order for special editions.

You can support creators you already love, or find books from new creators you might never have heard of before. Kickstarter has become an important part of the business of being an author these days. It enables creators to make more money more quickly and retain a higher percentage of the royalties rather than wait months or even years to get paid. This means we can keep writing the books you enjoy.

There are all kinds of different projects on the platform from art and design to films and games and music, and of course there are authors creating beautiful books. You can find us in the Publishing category at Kickstarter.com.

Campaigns usually run for a few weeks when you can check out what's available and back at the level you want. You enter your credit card number at this stage, but you won't be charged until the end of the campaign and only if the creator makes their target.

You can get special editions like my silver foil Spear of Destiny.

You can get bonus content, you can get merchandise, great value bundles, digital specials, print exclusives, and early access, sometimes months before books are published on retailers like Amazon. You also get to connect with the author through updates and messages.

Once the campaign is over and fully funded, the creator can fulfill your order. That might be an ebook or an audiobook, a special print edition or a bundle. The money is used to pay the printer for the books and other creatives involved in the process, like editors, cover designers or audio book narrators.

Why am I using Kickstarter for my latest thriller Spear of Destiny instead of just launching on the usual platforms? Well, for the first time in my 13 years of being a full-time author, I'm doing a special hardback edition for my fiction.

It has this exclusive Kickstarter only cover, silver foil on the dust jacket and the hard cover underneath, a black ribbon for a bookmark, red and black head and tail bands, higher quality paper. Plus this special edition includes photos from my research trips in the author's note, and it will be a signed first edition, so you won't be able to get this anywhere else.

And if you prefer other formats, you can also get early access to the other editions. This is the paperback and there's a large print edition if you like a bigger font and a bigger size. You can also get the ebook and the audiobook.

They will be out on my store, www.JFPennBooks.com in August, and on Amazon and all the usual retailers in September 2024, so you can read or listen months early if you get them from me in the Kickstarter campaign.

I'm also offering bundle deals for the whole ARKANE series in ebook, audiobook and paperback, and this is the first time I've done an audiobook bundle with so many books.

ARKANE action adventure thriller series by J.F. PennPlus, if you are a writer, you might be interested in my discovery writing webinar, which is also available as part of the campaign.

You can find out more at www.jfpenn.com/destiny and the Kickstarter runs from the 30 May to 18 June, 2024.

Even if Spear of Destiny is not for you, go check out the other wonderful publishing campaigns on www.kickstarter.com/publishing because you can get some brilliant books and other products and support creators directly.

If you have any questions or comments, please leave them below. Thanks for listening, and I hope to see you inside my campaign at www.jfpenn.com/destiny

The post What Is Kickstarter And Why Am I Launching My Latest Thriller Spear of Destiny There? first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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My next thriller, Spear of Destiny, is out now on Kickstarter, launching with a limited special signed First Edition with an exclusive cover.

In this video, I introduce you to Morgan Sierra and the adventure in the story, as well as show you the various editions available in the Kickstarter. There's also a Discovery Writing webinar, which you might find interesting as a writer.

Hello everyone. I'm Jo Frances (J.F.) Penn, Award-winning, New York Times and USA today bestselling thriller author, and I'm launching my next novel, Spear of Destiny on Kickstarter.

Morgan Sierra is perhaps who I might have been in another life. She's curious and loves traveling, and also likes saving the world and beating the bad guys.
But for now, I get to write her adventures in the ARKANE thrillers where Morgan and her team investigate supernatural mysteries around the world.

Spear of Destiny features Morgan and her secret agent partner Jake Timber, as they race against time to find the pieces of the legendary spear of destiny — the spear that pierced the side of Christ — before a general with an eye on the US presidency uses it to summon an ancient evil.

Along the way, they follow clues from Imperial Vienna to the Nazi bunkers under Nuremberg to a Tibetan temple and onto the heart of Washington, D.C., as Morgan and Jake face down enemies, both human and demonic, in their quest to find the spear before its terrible power is unleashed.

Morgan also seeks the spear for its fabled healing properties as her niece is under threat. So the story has both personal and world changing stakes. Spear of Destiny is book 13 in my ARKANE thriller series, but it can be read as a standalone story if you are just discovering the adventures.

ARKANE action adventure thriller series by J.F. PennThere are also bundle deals available, so you can binge the entire series in paperback, ebook, or audiobook if you prefer.

Why do a Kickstarter for Spear of Destiny?Well, I've never done a special edition for my fiction before, so I wanted to do this Kickstarter-only hardback edition, and it has silver foil on the dust jacket, as you can see, and also the interior cover.

It has custom end papers, a black ribbon as a bookmark and color photos from my research in the author's note. These will also be signed first editions, which I've never done for my fiction, and these will not be available after the Kickstarter.

You can also get the paperback, and there's a large print edition, which you can see is a bigger edition with a bigger font size. You can also get the ebook and the audiobook, or if you are a writer, join me for a Webinar on Discovery Writing where I'll go into my writing process.

Thanks for listening, and I hope you'll join me for Spear of Destiny. Just go to www.jfpenn.com/destiny to find out more.

The post A Desperate Quest. A Holy Relic. A Race Against Time. Spear of Destiny by J.F. Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How can you plan for success as an indie author even early in your writing career? How can you create multiple streams of income and multiple marketing channels, while still writing your books? Adam Beswick goes into his strategies.

In the intro, Kickstarter announces new functionality to help creatives;Watch out for a scam email about ALLi [Writer Beware]; Gary Vaynerchuk on the shifting marketing arena [Marketing Against the Grain Podcast]; Day Trading Attention by Gary Vaynerchuk; Camera free video options [Brave New Bookshelf]

Plus, Microsoft Build event with new AI-enabled PCs and Copilot agents [Microsoft]; My thoughts on seeing Hamilton; and Spear of Destiny coming this week!

Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Adam Beswick is the best-selling author of the Levanthria series which has taken readers on epic journeys from corner to corner of the world. While mastering the craft of fantastical storytelling, Adam simultaneously embraces the rewarding challenges of family life as well as being an authorpreneur.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Setting the foundation for your author business
• Having the confidence to financially invest in yourself
• Wrestling with the “importance” of choosing a writing career
• Creating multiple streams of income
• Overcoming the initial fear of creating video marketing content
• Staying consistent with your TikTok marketing and growing your viewership
• How to diversify away from reliance on any single platform

You can find Adam at APBeswickPublications.com.

Transcript of Interview with Adam BeswickJoanna: Welcome to the show, Adam.

Adam: Hi there. Thanks for having me.

Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you.

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.Adam: Well, I started writing around 2017. I was a mental health nurse, working silly hours in really stressful environments. I absolutely loved my job, but I needed a bit of an outlet at the end of my day.

I started writing bedtime stories for my children. Then it was my eldest daughter who challenged me to write a proper story, as she said at the time. I was joking with her that by the time I've written it, you'll probably be old enough to read it. Lo and behold, two and a half or three years later, I had a story that was written.

I'd published my first book, which was Arnold Ethon and The Lions of Tsavo, which is now known as the Spirit Beast Series, as I've rebranded that story last year.

So that's really how I got into writing. I wrote a couple of books in that series, they were kind of YA urban fantasy. It was a bit confusing what genre it was in. Then I spent the next two years figuring out how to actually publish them.

I was listening to all your podcasts, listening to Jenna Moreci, Bethany Atazadeh, and quite a few different indie authors to get hints and tips on how to publish those books.

It wasn't really until 2022, when I pivoted and released a new book in a new series, which was A Forest of Vanity and Valour, which was a dark fantasy retelling inspired by Robin Hood, that my career started taking off.

Joanna: Oh, so interesting. So first of all, I love that you come from healthcare. I mean, as a mental health nurse, I feel like you bring an attitude of caring from that job. I've seen you speak, and I think that comes through in the way you are in the community, which I really appreciate.

I wanted to ask you about how you went full time as an indie author in 2023, and we're recording this in 2024. So this is a big decision. So you left that job, and—

Can you just tell us how you made the decision to leave the job and how you've dealt with that shift?I know it's a big deal.

Adam: So the hardest part was convincing my wife that it was a stable career choice to be making. So, yes, throughout 2022, my books' trajectory started increasing.

It was late 2022 when I sat down with Mrs. Beswick and kind of laid out the financials and told her my intention that I really wanted to go full time. I did really enjoy my job. I was in a band 7 post in the NHS in a complex care commissioning team, which I did really enjoy.

I had a good sense of purpose, but the hours compared to the time it was allowing me to write and keep on track of everything for my indie author side that was really gathering momentum made it quite difficult to juggle the two.

Luckily, I managed to convince Mrs. Beswick that it was a good idea for me to go full-time. I think it was the 14th of February 2023 that I was able to leave that role in the complex care team in the CCG and become a full-time indie author. It was something that was incredible. I never thought it would ever happen.

So 2023 was more about working on my foundations which I had been putting into place in 2022. So making sure the foundations were right, and that that way I could progress and move into my 2024 plan, which was around growth.

So 2023, my primary focus was getting into a good routine, a healthy routine. I was making sure I was still being able to write books that people would enjoy, as well as planning far enough ahead to make sure there's plenty to look forward to keep me motivated as well.

Joanna: Well, on that, let's dig a bit more on what is working on foundations. You mentioned there a healthy routine and some planning, but—

Give us a sense of what foundations you were working on.Adam: Okay, so the entire time before I went full time, in 2022 when A Forest of Vanity and Valour first started taking off, I had to learn fast with the networking side. What I mean by that is kind of replying to feedback and emails and comments on social media from readers and trying to build that engaged audience.

So 2022 and 2023, there was a really big focus on building those platforms and working on my newsletter. Making sure that my business was set up correctly has been absolutely key.

As we're all indie authors, our focus a lot of the time is just on writing the books.

What we actually forget is writing the books is only a part of that indie author career.We've got to be marketing experts, and there's so many different hats that we have to wear, that one of the factors there as well was making sure that the business side was set up.

At first it’s quite overwhelming, but making sure that you're set up for success from the beginning is absolutely key so that you're not caught chasing your tail.

Joanna: Well on that, again, you come from healthcare, so how did you learn how to set up a business correctly? I mean, I worked in business, and I ran my own businesses, so that's always been easier for me because I had that experience. So how did you learn that?

How did you make sure you had the right [business] setup?Adam: So as a nurse, one of the things that is drilled into you from the first day of your training is to be a reflective practitioner. A lot of those skills that I've kind of adapted as a nurse, I've transferred into my indie author career. So that reflexive practice is something that I've always done.

Seeing what's working, what can I change? If I were in that situation again, what could I do differently? How could I improve my responses?

Running the business is very much the same. You're not always going to get it perfect, but you have to be susceptible to feedback and being able to adapt, and be quick on your feet and pivot if things aren't going correctly.

What I made sure I was doing is that I got a good accountant that was able to advise me very well on how to adapt and change as my business continued to grow.

So for example, going from a sole trader to a limited company, how to set that up to go into being VAT registered. There's a lot of background stuff that can be quite overwhelming if you haven't got the right circle of people around you.

So in having a good accountant, they were able to explain everything to me, answer any questions that I might have. Obviously, I work more and more with them as my books have done better and better, as I've needed more and more support on certain elements of the business.

Joanna: I love that you did that because I also did that when I decided to leave my job as a consultant and do this. I planned to be successful, and I made a business plan for a six-figure business. It was something that is actually very rare, so well done for doing that.

Now for people listening who are like, “Whoa, Adam did that quite quickly.” So how do you have the confidence—since you started in 2017, really, but 2022 was when it really took off—

How do you have the confidence to spend the money on things like an accountant earlier on in the career when you don't necessarily know that things are going to carry on growing?There are people listening who just don't know how they can make that step, I guess. So any tips around that?

Adam: So first and foremost, I invested in myself. It was easy to do when I was earning a full-time wage. Obviously, my time was spread a lot thinner, but when I was still working full time as a nurse, I had an income that covered all my bills.

So any extra income I was making through my books, I could just reinvest straight back into the business. So while I wasn't full time, and still had that main source of income coming in, I was using any money that was coming in to invest into those foundations I spoke about earlier.

So I was paying for future books to be formatted and edited. I was covering the cost of my audiobook narrator for multiple books in advance while that money was there.

Once all that stuff was paid for, and I could see that the royalties were kind of going beyond what I could spend on the business, that's where I started saving that money to one side to make sure I had six months wages saved up for the day that I did go full time.

Joanna: That six months, I also did the same thing. It's really interesting, I said to my husband, Jonathan, if I can't make this work in six months, then I will go back to my job. I imagine you said the same thing. In fact, you could go back anytime, right?

Adam: Well, it’s quite a surreal moment, really. So obviously, being a nurse, I have a yearly PIN that I have to register with the NMC. Last year, I renewed that, and it expires tomorrow, and I'm not going to renew it. It is a bit sad, but I haven't been practicing as a nurse for 15 months now.

I have the belief that my books and my publishing company will go from strength to strength. So I guess you have to have that inner belief that you are going to succeed because they'll always be that seed of doubt. If you're not backing yourself, who else is going to back you?

Joanna: I agree. Well, then I'm going to ask you a question that came up a lot during the pandemic, and I've thought about it too.

How important is writing story when we maybe could do something “more important”?Like people would say, oh, I should save lives, I should become a doctor or a nurse instead of writing stories. So I wondered if that's something you've wrestled with or any thoughts on that?

Adam: I think one element of how you could look at it is that in a way authors were kind of key workers in that pandemic. Everyone was trapped and isolated and alone, and there was a resurgence in books, in general, because more people were suddenly reading because they had nothing else they could do.

They couldn't socialize. So actually, if those stories didn't exist, a lot of people wouldn't have been able to find the escapism that they did during COVID. I continued writing.

I was running an extremely complex service-learning disability service near where I live when COVID hit. We were a week away from opening when we went into the first lockdown.

So I was working with some incredibly challenging and complex individuals with autism, mental health needs, challenging behaviors, and we had to carry out all that work during lockdown conditions.

So we were going into hospitals, working with individuals, transitioning them from one state hospital into living in their own flat in the community with the right levels of support.

Writing was a release to what was an incredibly stressful time for me. So that was my escape.I was sitting down first thing in the morning, not so much last thing at night, and I was just up an hour before anyone else in the house got up. That way there was no time lost with my family, that my writing wasn't impacting my family life.

I just kept writing. The more motivated I got with stories, the more I found my stories were coming together a lot quicker.

Joanna: I love that. I actually have a quote on my wall. I only read it recently, but it helps me, which is by the horror writer, Adam Nevill. It says,

“If you are gifted with an imagination, it must be used.” Adam Nevill

I love that because you're obviously someone who also is gifted with imagination. You're also gifted in other ways, but I love that you're using it.

As you say, we help people through our stories. I know that took me a long time to really accept, and it's something I still think about. So yes, I love that.

So let's just come back to something else you said, which was in 2020, you pivoted. So you had The Spirit Beasts series that you rebranded, and then you moved into the dark fantasy retelling.

Why pivot? Is this about writing to market? How did you decide to do that?Adam: It was a bit of both, really. So I was in the build up to the second book in my Spirit Beast series, as it was called then, and sales weren't anything breathtaking. Outside of family and friends, I was finding it incredibly hard to market.

Writing and releasing the books was difficult, in the sense that we're having to scrimp and scrape every penny we had to do the formatting and the book cover design. So I was kind of limited to releasing one book a year.

So I was actually sat watching the latest Robin Hood film with Mrs. Beswick, featuring Taron Egerton. At the end of the film, I was having a bit of a grumble that I didn't like it, and Mrs. Beswick lost it with me and just kind of said, “If you think you can do better, why don't you write it?”

So I just got the bit between my teeth and was like, right, okay. Then I sat down and thought, well, what if it wasn't Robin Hood's story, but more a retelling?

Then it kind of escalated to, oh, what if it was a fantasy retelling? So a completely new fantasy world, but it's more of the trope of Robin Hood that you recognize.

Then I was like, oh, what if Blackbeard lived in this world? What if there were witches, and King Arthur, and Merlin, and St. George? Then my mind just kept escalating.

I was like, oh, these could all be standalone stories that interconnect with characters that appear. Like in the first book there's a bit-part character, but by book three, they're a main character with a book around them. Then it just grew from there.

I think I wrote that book in a few months, and it was the quickest I've ever written a story because I was hyper-motivated once that concept started to grow. It all came about because Mrs. Beswick decided to challenge me because she was sick of me grumbling.

Joanna: I mean, there's lots of ideas that come up like that. So you wrote that book, but did you keep in mind the marketing?

How did you then discover that this was going to be the thing that would sell more easily?Adam: I didn't. So at first, I was looking at how I could speed up the process of publishing, from a cost perspective, and I came across a platform called Kickstarter. I'm sure everyone is aware of it now.

I'm proud to say that my first Kickstarter finished about a month before Brandon Sanderson made it widely known that Kickstarter is a fantastic platform for publishing books.

The money that I was able to raise from that Kickstarter meant that I could publish A Forest of Vanity and Valour, and I had enough money to cover the costs for book two.

That meant I could release that three months after the first book came out, rather than a year. Up to that point, my books were taking me about a year at a time to release.

Joanna: So just tell us there so people get an idea, because you mentioned Brandon Sanderson, and, of course, his money on Kickstarter is ridiculous.

How much money did you make on that first Kickstarter?Adam: Around two and a half thousand pounds.

Joanna: Okay, so let's say that's around three thousand US dollars. So this is not a Brandon Sanderson amount of money, but that was enough for you to take that and invest that in the books.

So then, let's talk about how you drove success from there. I feel like you talked a bit earlier about how you were building your engaged audience, and you mentioned a few things, but you're kind of well-known now around TikTok and using that platform.

Talk about when you started to use TikTok and why you decided to go that way.Adam: I think it was January 6th, which was a week before A Forest of Vanity and Valour came out, that one of my friends who was my accountability partner, we'd had a conversation to say we're going to make 2022 our year.

To do that, I knew that I needed to say yes to more opportunities and stop being overly cautious and avoiding scenarios. I was always worried about what was going wrong, or what could go wrong and the risk, rather than looking at what the reward could be.

So my mantra was kind of as long as it doesn't put my family at detriment, then it's a risk that I'm happy to take, regardless of how uncomfortable that may make me.

Rob challenged me to join James Blatch's TikTok for Authors group, where they were doing a five-day TikTok challenge. It was designed to get yourself on camera and start talking about your books on a video format.

I was absolutely terrified. I couldn't hold the camera. I tried filming myself, and I was shaking that much. It was ridiculous, it was only me in the room.

So I did the challenge, I filmed a video, and I think I released three videos a day, every day for five days. I became hooked very, very quickly. I started posting about A Forest of Vanity and Valour, letting people know about it, letting people know about me, introducing myself, trying different kinds of videos.

By the end of January, I'd made 100 pounds without spending a penny on advertising. That proved to be a pivotal moment and probably the most important part of my career so far.

Now, a lot of people might think that's a lot of work to do, and look and think, well, you've only made 100 pound profit. Whereas my mindset was that I've made 100 pounds without spending anything on ads. So I did a deep dive —

I looked at the content that was generating engagement, and I just started tweaking it like you would a Facebook ad, doing your AB testing.I kept trying different types of videos, and then continued posting three videos a day, until I think it was the back end of April, or middle of April, that I had my first semi-viral video. That meant that from two books I made just around 2000 pounds.

That really opened my eyes to what was possible from a video, from a content-making point of view. So that was all the motivation I needed.

I started thinking in small term goals. Let's aim to continue to get at least X amount of sales every day for a whole month, or X amount of page-reads. Then it was if I can do 2000 pounds a month for six months, that shows this is sustainable.

I just kept repeating that, trying different kinds of videos, releasing new content, but most importantly, keeping writing books, keeping the audience engaged and showing them what is coming in the future. As, obviously, it was a series that I was writing.

It just kind of went from strength to strength with the video marketing. In August of 2022, I had my first viral video, truly viral video, which was about 2 million views.

By that time I had two books out, but I also had had the audiobooks produced with the money I'd made that year from my books taking off on TikTok. It was just in that cycle of posting content, and I wasn't really chasing virality.

Virality, it's fantastic when it happens because it can set you up for more than a few months, but the focus for me was keeping posting content, keeping engaged, keeping motivated, keeping growing that audience for the remainder of 2022, and beyond into 2023.

Joanna: All right, a couple of things I want to come back on. So first of all, your business model around platforms and things. So you've mentioned Kickstarter, but then you also just mentioned page reads, and I think you also have your own store.

What kind of setup have you got around sales? How are you driving most of that revenue?Adam: Okay, so obviously, I heavily use video marketing to direct traffic and sales. As everyone knows, with platforms like TikTok and Instagram reels, for example, you're not guaranteed that engagement. So your sales can't be as consistent as you might like.

So again, this is why the foundations of having your own audience to tap into is key. So last, I think it was 2023 about August time, I wasn't really happy with the page reads, what I was getting paid for page reads. My page reads weren't necessarily groundbreaking, I have a lot of people that will buy the physical copies of my books.

So in September, I set up my own store. I took all my books out of Kindle Unlimited, and I took all my audiobooks from exclusivity with ACX.

I set up my own bundles on my store and started working with a company called Bookvault to print my books.

They will print the books, and they'll distribute books, so I don't have to worry about having a huge amount of stock, and they're print on demand. I started letting my followers know about it. Between September and December, my store just completely blew up. It was absolutely insane how well it was doing.

People were really interested in that story, it wasn't just the books they were interested in. It wasn't that I was completely unhappy with Amazon, but I think I'd be lying if I didn't say we all have grumbles that things could be better with royalty rates, things like that.

It just felt like everywhere I went to, the indie author and the creator who has put all this money and invested all this time into the product, was actually getting the smallest piece of the pie. Which again, when I get the bit between my teeth, it kind of sends me into hyper focus.

So my store became my priority. So I still left my books on Amazon, but all my links, everywhere I directed people, was just to my store.

I started hitting five-figure sales on my store within that first month, and that's continued ever since.What I was also surprised by was my Amazon sales were kind of matching what my store was doing. It was kind of neck and neck for the rest of the year, which is something that I really didn't expect.

So I've just gone from strength to strength, and my focus now is having as many income streams as possible. I've got a wife, a family, and children to support, so I need to protect them as best as I can.

The best way I can do that with my books is to have as many different revenue streams as possible. It doesn't matter how small that stream might be trickling in because it all adds up down the line.

So I've got some audiobooks on YouTube. I'm just in the process of setting up Ream, which is a subscription platform like Patreon. That's something I've only started doing recently.

I'm on Amazon. My eBooks are wide now from Draft2Digital. They're on Findaway Voices, my audiobooks, and they're on ACX as well, just on the frustratingly lower end of the royalty scale.

Joanna: I love that, and I really think this is something that a lot of people don't realize with selling direct. As you've done, and as I've done, is that directing all the traffic to your store means that people will still look at it, but a lot of them will just buy elsewhere. So that's what you've seen.

Let's come back to the video. So you said, originally, you were in the room on your own, you were terrified, you had anxiety, and you were worried about it. Look, I am someone who has not done much video because I just don't like it. I just don't want to do it.

I feel like there's pressure as a woman to wear makeup on videos, and I just cannot be bothered. Also, that's not how I spend my time as a consumer. I don't watch video. I'm not on TikTok, or YouTube Reels, or any of the YouTube Shorts, all of these things.

So I feel this massive resistance to video, but everybody seems to suggest that this is a very good thing to do. So if there are people listening who are like me, and they just do not want to do video, what are your thoughts on people like me? Should we even bother?

Are there ways we can do video without using our faces?Adam: There's tons of different ways of creating short form and long form video content. I suppose you've got to find the balance of what works for you.

Now ultimately, if you've tried it and it just doesn't work for you, don't push yourself. Ultimately, you don't want to give yourself anxiety, but you're going to have to look at other organic or paid ways to generate traffic.

Now, video content is a great way as a new indie author to generate that interest, and find new readers, and potentially create that small level of income that you need to invest back into your business to then start building that sustainable growth over a period of time.

It's not going to happen overnight. There's too many people that will post videos sporadically over a month, once every three, four, or five days.

With your video content, you've got to show up every day. You've got to be creative.That's not necessarily a bad thing because you're constantly trying to figure out what's working, what's not working. Then when you think you've solved it, TikTok, Instagram, they all change their algorithms just to keep us on our toes.

So it is about adapting, you have to have a strong mindset and a belief that you can achieve it. You also have to be aware that it could take months, it could take six, seven months of putting the work in before you start seeing the results. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

I think if you were to have a video take off on day one, you kind of psychologically have that expectation that you deserve your video to go viral every single time you post. Ultimately, TikTok and Instagram, they don't owe us any favors.

It doesn't mean they're punishing us when a video doesn't go out, it just means that that given day, that given time, that video just didn't resonate with people. There's absolutely nothing to stop you reposting that video another time. Again, that might work, and sometimes it might not work.

At the moment, TikTok doesn't seem to particularly like reposted content. The viral video I spoke about earlier that got 2 million views on TikTok in August 2022, on Instagram that same video has generated 10 million views.

It was posted quite a few times because there's times where it doesn't get views, and then there's times where it just goes crazy and starts getting that engagement. Every time they do, it generates sales.

Once you've created the content, you've got it forever. So you can repost that as many times as you feel comfortable doing. If you don't post about your books, people aren't going to know about them. If you post about them, what's the worst that can happen?

Joanna: Yes, and I think you're right.

Everyone has to have some way of marketing, and whichever thing it is, concentrate on that. I mean, obviously I have the podcast, I have a big email list. I use, I guess, more traditional methods.

I think, as I said to you before we started recording, I came into this 2006/2007, and I feel like I need to relearn a lot of things, especially as things change, as they do all the time.

That's why I love listening to you, and when you spoke at Seville, and I listened to other people, and it's like, things do change. So while some things stay the same, some things change.

I did want to ask you, so earlier you said that you were struggling to sell that first series and it was hard to market. So you only started doing TikTok on a series that did start selling. So is it that TikTok is not a magic bullet to sell anything, it needs to still be used for book series that are already selling? Or—

Have you tried marketing that other series that was hard to market?Adam: I have tried. I have completely rebranded the other series. I've sunk quite a lot of money into having new covers designed, rewriting them, having them re-edited because I wasn't happy with the editing the first time around. I'm happy with the books, but they don't make any significant amount of money.

The readers enjoy it, which is what is important. I know if I stopped marketing my Levanthria Series and focused on my Spirit Beast Series for a couple of months, they probably would start shifting more.

There's more books in my Levanthria Series, which means that's my main income maker, so there is more of a focus. So I suppose I can be guilty myself of neglecting it.

It is part of my plan over the next few months just to start giving The Spirit Beast Series the attention that it deserves. Whether that be looking at the more conventional ways of marketing, like email newsletters and stuff like that, paid promos, Facebook ads.

I think what my focus is going to be is kind of splitting my time better. So I went to SPS Live last year, and Marc Reklau gave a fantastic talk. One of the take homes there was his 80/20 split.

So I've kind of broke that into different segments. So for example, this week, 80% of my time I've set specifically for writing because I'm writing a new book. 20% is the business and marketing side of stuff.

Now, within that 20%, 80% of my marketing will be focused on The Levanthria Series, and 20% will be focused on other things that I'm working on, other books or other projects or new things that I'm releasing, if that makes sense.

So it's just about balancing that time right to make sure that I'm able to market other series more, but it's always hard. Again, it's a mindset thing. You can put a few videos out, and if they don't take, you kind of get deflated. Then I'll naturally go back to my series that I know sells, which I can be guilty of.

Joanna: Well, the fact is, it's true, and many authors don't like it, but in every business—

80% of the revenue comes from 20% of the books.Or 20% of the work. I mean, that 80/20 rule works for so many things. In a traditional publishing house with millions of books, only a small number of those are going to be the money drivers. The same is true for us, as authors, I think.

Out of my catalogue, there are books that barely sell a single copy in a month. I mean, it really is concentrate on the ones that do make money, and then put time, as you say, into new series and other things that might be more experimental.

I did want to just come back on one thing. We're recording this the end of April 2024, and in the US last week, President Joe Biden signed into law the ban of the app TikTok within the next, let's say, nine months, unless it's sold from the Chinese owner.

It might not happen, or there might be a sale to somebody, maybe Mark Zuckerberg or whoever. Like whatever happens, there are going to be some changes. I mean, even if it doesn't sell, there are always changes in the algorithms, as you said.

What is your advice to authors who might be worried about what might happen to TikTok if they're relying on it for a lot of traffic and sales?Adam: Yes, so you've got to have a backup plan. Now, TikTok has kind of blown up again in America with TikTok Shop. Now, we were fortunate enough to get that around six to nine months before it kind of landed in America.

I know so many indie authors in America who their careers are thriving because of TikTok Shop, and I absolutely get why they would be worried. TikTok Shop enables people to literally watch a video and buy a physical book, there and then, while still watching the video. That level of integration can really drive sales.

I used to TikTok Shop, but I've kind of pivoted to focus more on my store. That's, again, just because the profit lines are better, and they work for me. So again, it's just about how you want to manage that.

I like to have my eggs in multiple baskets, rather than all being in one. I used to just be on Kindle, and Amazon, and KDP, and it was just over a year ago when all the horror stories were coming about.

People's accounts were just being banned out of the blue, the crime being their books had been pirated by other people, which they've got no control over. It frightened me, especially because I was quite damn dependent on my income from my books.

So I made the decision then to start exploring wide options. It wasn't until three or four months later in September, having spoken to a friend of mine and her husband, Laura and Ross Bertie, where their focus was direct selling, that it really opened my eyes.

Even after having that conversation and the difference it made for them, it still took me a couple of months to actually start implementing that change. We're all scared to change, but we kind of have to embrace it.

The worst thing we can do as creatives is get stuck in a monotonous routine because it'll just affect how we write, how we market our books. So just explore in different ways, in different avenues of advertising.

For example, we're on TikTok fire. It's a free platform for marketing our books, which is great, but that doesn't mean it's always going to be free. You've got to be ready to pivot and change at the drop of a hat.

It's us that has to change, not the platform.So use it while it's there. Use any upcoming platforms that you think might make a difference. Again, I'm in the UK, so it's not as scary for me, but I've got a big readership in America. Like 70% of my readers are based in America, so it could impact me massively.

So again, it's using the time we've got to inform people, let people know what your concerns are, try and build that connection to say, “Well, we don't know what's going to happen with the app. There's a link to my newsletter in my bio if you want to keep in touch,” in case anything happens to you.

Or you can set up a store with the integrations, for example, like Shopify. Then you're not as reliant just on TikTok Shop or TikTok driving the traffic. If you are making money, make sure you are investing that back into your business.

So for example, for the last four or five months, I've been investing money into Facebook ads, which are the bane of my life, I absolutely hate them. I think paid marketing is the biggest con going because, again, the marketing companies make money more money than we do.

I've had to kind of bite that bullet because I need to find a way to get ads working for my Levanthria Series because I know that's the only way I can focus on a new series that I'm writing or other projects that I'm working on, from a video marketing perspective.

Otherwise, my attention is always going to be split between books. So I've got the video content I know that works, so I'm pivoting by running paid Facebook ads to my store to try and keep those sales coming in for one series.

So then I can focus on my other platforms, not just TikTok, and any other growing platforms. So for example, the last two weeks, I've been more heavily involved on Threads because there's quite a big author community growing on there, which is great.

So it is just that. Don't get sucked into just having one avenue to generate traffic or generate that engagement.

You need to be active over time, over multiple platforms, which in itself can be quite overwhelming.So you have to find a balance that works for you and that isn't a detriment to yourself, your family, or your mental health.

Joanna: Absolutely. Everything we've learned, since I've been an indie author as well, is that things change, and often they move from free to paid.

So Facebook used to be free to reach people, and then it ended up being mostly paid traffic. A lot of the stuff on Amazon has changed. You mentioned ACX. I mean, when that first came out, the royalties were much, much higher, and then they kind of ratcheted lower over time.

So I think you're right. Everything that we do, you can't take it for granted that it's going to last. I mean, Twitter/X also is another example of something that completely changed under new ownership. So, yes, very good to think about. We're almost out of time, and—

You have been working on a new project. So tell us more about that.Adam: Yes, so, I've got a few projects because I like to keep myself busy. So not only am I writing a brand new series in a brand new genre, which is LitRPG, which I am having an absolute blast with that. It is probably the most fun I've had writing a book in a long time.

I've also set up a publishing imprint to start publishing books by other authors. I've been working with a bestselling author Cara Clare, creating a new pen name for a dark fantasy romance series that she has written.

That we will be publishing through my new imprint, which is Arcane Passion Press. That comes out on the 28th of May.

Joanna: Yes, so as this goes out, it will be tomorrow. So hopefully by the time it goes out, people can go and have a look at that. So do you have a whole new sort of website and a whole new sort of place for that? Or is that still through your main website?

Adam: Yes, so Mrs. Beswick started working full time with me at the beginning of this year, as it was just too much for me to do because I like spinning plates, but some were starting to smash on the floor.

We've been busy behind the scenes kind of getting, again, all those foundations set up. So the website is live now, AlexisBrookeBooks.com.

We've got a profile on Ream set up where you can actually read the story for free at the moment, but when this goes out, you won't be able to anymore as the book will be launching on Kindle Unlimited. The book is called The Jester, which is a fae fantasy romance.

Joanna: Tell people where they can find you and everything you do online.Adam: So my store is APBeswickPublications.com, that's where I drive all my traffic. My books are also available wide on Amazon, and digitally through Draft2Digital across a lot of other platforms. Same with my audiobooks, they're available wide.

I've got a website in development which will start integrating the novel games community, which is the social media marketing side of things that I do, because I just like to keep myself busy, apparently.

Joanna: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Adam. That was great.

Adam: Thank you.

The post Plan For Success In Your Indie Author Business And TikTok Marketing With Adam Beswick first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How can you blend ‘work for hire', ghostwriting, and being an indie author into a successful hybrid career writing books for children? Aubre Andrus gives her tips.

In the intro, Countdown Pages on FindawayVoices by Spotify; the impact of AI narrated audiobooks on Audible [Bloomberg]; Ideas for short fiction anthologies and Kevin J. Anderson's Kickstarter; Penguin Random House launches internal ChatGPT tool for employees [Publishers Lunch]; 2024 is the year AI at work gets real [Microsoft].

Plus, reasons for the new theme music, licensed from AudioJungle for 10m downloads (the podcast is up to 9.7 million with the old tune); and planning for my Kickstarter launch for Spear of Destiny.

This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Aubre Andrus is an award-winning children's author with more than 50 books, as well as being a ghostwriter and former American Girl magazine editor. Her books, The Look Up Series, feature women in STEM careers.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• The background of the American Girl brand
• Pros and cons of work for hire and ghostwriting
• Work for hire best practices to make it worth the money
• Differences in work for hire contracts and payment models
• How to seek out work for hire projects
• Using lessons learned from past projects in your own series
• Creative control over content and marketing a self-published author
• Marketing self-published children's books

You can find Aubre at AubreAndrus.com.

Transcript of Interview with Aubre AndrusJoanna: Aubre Andrus is an award-winning children's author with more than 50 books, as well as being a ghostwriter and former American Girl Magazine editor. Her books, The Look Up Series, center around women in STEM careers. So welcome to the show. Aubre.

Aubre: Thank you so much for having me.

Joanna: I'm excited to talk about this today. So first up—

Tell us a bit more about you, how you got into writing children's books originally, and how you started out in work for hire.Aubre: So I started at a kids' magazine right out of college. If anyone is familiar, the company was American Girl. So they publish magazines, books, and also have an extensive doll collection that's very popular in the US.

So while I was working at the magazine, I noticed the book department next door and all the wonderful books they were creating that I had also read as a child. I learned that they were developing all of their concepts in house, and then just hiring authors to execute those ideas.

I also learned that a lot of them were former magazine editors. So it was interesting to me that one day, perhaps, I could leave the magazine and then pitch myself to become one of these authors. So that is what I did.

It was interesting because American Girl was based in Middleton, Wisconsin, in the US. That's very much in the Midwest, not near New York City publishing. So we're very much an island separate from any other type of children's publishing, like the industry.

So even though I got my foot in the door in publishing books, I was still kind of stuck. Like, uh oh, is there any way I can expand this anymore? Do other publishers in New York do this also? I had no idea.

I just started networking at children's book conferences, and frankly, just blindly reaching out to people and saying, “Hey, do you offer any work for hire projects? I've done a couple. I'm interested in doing more.” So I was able to slowly build up that work for hire career.

Joanna: I have a few questions about this. So first of all, I have been in of the American Girls stores in New York. So I am aware of this, but I know some listeners won't be. So can you maybe just talk a bit about that?

I was just fascinated. It did seem to be more modern as in it wasn't just really old school stuff, there were more modern female role models, I guess. I mean, that's what the worry is with these older IP brands, is that they have an old, outdated version of what women are.

Talk about how these IP brands work, and if people don't even know what American Girl is.Aubre: So it started as kind of like an heirloom doll company from a former teacher and textbook author. So she was really like an educational entrepreneur. So she was sort of not interested in Barbie for her nieces, and she was trying to create something better, in her mind's eye.

So she developed this line of three dolls that were historical characters that then also had a series of six books that accompanied them. It basically was teaching girls what it was like to be a girl back in time.

You know, so what was it like to grow up during World War Two? What was like to grow up as an immigrant coming to the US for the first time? Then it kind of expanded from there, the historical doll collection.

Then it really ballooned into just creating contemporary content for girls. That's what I was a part of at the magazine, which was just like a lifestyle magazine for 8- to 12-year-old girls.

Similar to at the time there was Nickelodeon Magazine, Disney Magazine, Highlights Magazine, like in that same vein, but specifically targeted about girlhood and for girls in that 8 to 12 age range.

Then from there spun the contemporary line of books, and a lot of like crafts, and activity, and recipe, and slumber parties, and just anything that kind of celebrates that girlhood from ages 8 to 12. Then the dolls also then became more contemporary, a line of dolls that looked like you.

Joanna: Like customized content.

Aubre: Yes, and that's really where the company stands today. The historical characters, I think maybe girls today aren't as interested in them, but there is the line of dolls that look like you and you can dress.

They have partnerships with Harry Potter and anything you can imagine, so it's quite a fun company. I loved it as a kid, so it was amazing for me to work there as a grown up.

Joanna: I mean, as business people, we have to think this way. I feel like so often because we are, and the listeners, we're authors first, we're books first, and I think we forget that there's so many other things.

Brands like American Girl, they're good examples. Even if no one is interested in that particular type of thing, the business model is great. I mean, obviously, Barbie does it so well as, as well. So I do like this idea of thinking further than just a book, even if, of course, we're not going to grow a whole empire like this.

You mentioned it was separate from New York publishing. Did you almost feel like sort of second rate? I don't want to use that word, but you know what I mean. Did you find that difficult?Aubre: I did. I mean, we were so isolated from New York publishing. I think, you know, this isn't an offense to anyone who's working there, I think they would all agree. Some of them have gone on to work for more like New York City publishers, and it is more fast paced, and it's just different.

We sort of had our own little bubble and had our lovely little pace, and we were creating amazing stuff for kids. So I felt like I knew American Girl publishing, but I did not necessarily know children's book publishing. So it was a little intimidating to dive into that.

Joanna: Yes, and on that, I mean, you mentioned networking and going to conferences. I still remember how it felt as a newly self-published author, to feel kind of second rate, to feel looked down upon, to feel like I was a second-class citizen. I imagine you kind of felt that way when you were networking and at conferences.

How did you get through that mindset in order to meet people at these conferences?Aubre: Well, I mean, I felt that way, that second rate way, in so many ways, because A, I had only done publishing in Middleton, Wisconsin, and then B, I was doing middle grade, which at the time was not hot, not sexy. Everyone was doing YA.

Then I was also doing nonfiction, which also is not fiction, which is where most people want to be. Then also, I was doing work for hires, I wasn't even developing the concepts myself. So there were so many reasons why I felt like a second-rate author. Like, am I a real author? I don't know. So for a while there, I really second guessed myself. Then I just kind of had to get over it like that.

I started working with really amazing brands, like National Geographic Kids and Disney. I mean, these are amazing, and people would kill to have these opportunities. So I just really started embracing work for hire. I get to work on so many fun projects for really amazing brands and IP, and that's really cool. So, yes, I just had to kind of mindset shift.

Joanna: You gave yourself like a talking to and said, make the most of it.Aubre: Yes.

Joanna: I do think it has to be a mindset shift if people feel that way. Like you mentioned, whether it's the type of publishing you do or whether it's the type of genre you're writing.

What's so funny, I think, with the self-publishing world, is that the romance writers in old school publishing were always looked down upon. People who wrote romance were considered sort of lesser in some way. Now, it's very clear, and it always has been true I think, but before it wasn't so known that they make so much money and they prop up basically the rest of the industry.

Aubre: Exactly. I mean, it blows my mind if anyone ever looks down upon romance. It is the industry, and they are so savvy. I actually keep quite an eye on the romance industry because they are just so smart and what they're doing works. So even though I'm writing books for kids, I'm always kind of peeking over there. Like, wow, they're creating these universes, they're doing this on TikTok. I'm always so impressed by the romance community.

Joanna: They are always ahead. Well done, romance writers listening. I always wish I could do it, but I can't.

Aubre: I'm thinking about it. I'm always like, hmm could I do that? I'm starting to read more in that genre because it is interesting.

Joanna: That's interesting. Okay, so let's come back to the work for hire because, of course, you mentioned some of the great brands you've been writing with. So I guess one thing is that that is an amazing experience.

What are some of the pros and cons of work for hire and ghostwriting?Aubre: Well, for me, it was a great way to dip my toes into the water, instead of just jumping into the deep end, and slowly build up my skills as an author. I imagine some people who hit it big on their first novel, I mean probably are just absolutely drowning in the industry and don't feel very savvy.

I've really been able to build up a knowledge of different publishers, of different types of projects, discover what I'm good at, what I like. I've really just got a wide range of experience that has only made me a better author.

So after I left American Girl, I took a job in marketing, but I was freelance writing on the side. So compared to freelance writing—because then my dream was to eventually go freelance and just to be a freelance writer—I would have had to take on so many freelance writing projects that pay like two hundred bucks.

I mean, I still see some of these come across my social media feeds. So if they're paying $200 for an article, I mean, how many articles would you have to write and pitch to make a living?

So compared to freelance writing, this is fewer higher paying projects. I like that so much more. I get to control the workload. I can even take on some freelance projects outside of this field. In the past, I've dabbled in content marketing and social media to kind of balance my day.

I don't need to come up with the ideas, I just need to execute someone else's ideas. So it's a little bit, you know, I have felt that I was on a hamster wheel of content production, for sure, absolutely.

There is a hustle element to it of always trying to find the next gig, but I have to remind myself that I'm in control of my workload. I can turn down a project, if it doesn't pay well, I can hold out for the higher paying project.

I do get a lot of the benefits of a traditional process. I get royalties, I've gone on book tours, I have fan mail, I do school visits, I've done book events. So really, I've gotten everything I wanted out of being a children's book author from these work for hire projects. Also, I see that most books don't earn out their advances.

So there is a balance to it, where I'm like, am I on a hamster wheel? Can I ever get over this hump? But at the same time, I feel like we're all kind of on a hamster wheel. Unless you really hit it big on one huge book project, like you're always going to have to keep pumping out books in a series or—

Joanna: Marketing the backlist.

Aubre: Exactly. I mean, marketing is exhausting as well. So in general, I've very much had a good experience with work for hire. I get my name on the cover and on the spine, depending on the project. I think it just really depends on the publishers you're working for and the relationships you establish. Then from there, you can put your own ideas, you know.

Then the cons would be like, maybe you're working on some projects that you're not as excited about. You can always say no, but you know, when you're getting your foot in the door, you might take on a few things that aren't exactly in your wheelhouse.

I always saw these projects as stepping stones to where I wanted to go, whether it was a stepping stone to get into a certain publisher, or just establish myself with an editor, or kind of wade into new waters.

I kind of slowly stepped into narrative nonfiction and eventually started doing narrative nonfiction novels. Now I'm doing a lot of short story fiction, and I hope that leads to a fiction novel. So there's these ways to slowly build up your skills through work for hire.

Joanna: Yes, I mean, I think some people will be like, yes, but you said they're not your ideas. You're basically writing someone else's ideas, and that, to me, seems one of the biggest issues. So I have co-written a few fiction projects and nonfiction. The fiction, I found extremely hard because I don't play well with others. I was like, I do not want to write anything that is not what I feel is me. So how do you get over that?

I mean, tell us how the process works. If you take one of these projects on, do you get given story beats? Is there anything you can do that's individual or—

Do you just flesh out what someone else has written as an outline?Aubre: Well, I can speak to my experience in the nonfiction children's book world, and that is often I'm just given like a title. So I really can run with it. You know, I get a lot of control and a lot of the responsibilities put on me to flesh out a project.

I have also done ghostwriting for fiction, so I think it just depends on the project. I agree with you that fiction is much harder. I have a place where I want the story to go, and it might not be the place where what we would call the author—which is the person who came up with the idea, you would be the ghostwriter—where they want it to go.

So you've got to look at it more like, this is my client, and I am trying to make my client happy. On those type of projects, I don't want my name on them. I want my name on the paycheck, I don't want my name on the book.

I think that's how I get over it. I'm just like, this is not mine. I am helping them do theirs, this is their thing, and that is what it is.

In the kids' nonfiction, I've had a ton of fun and a ton of agency to do what I want with the project. They're looking for my expertise to really bring this to life.

Joanna: So the other thing I've learned about people, like yourself, is you have to be incredibly professional, and you have to work to deadline, and you have to do a whole load of things that, frankly, some authors can't do. So tell us about the level of professionalism and your best practices.

How do you get these projects done in a timely manner that make it worth the money?Aubre: Yes, so most of the projects have pretty quick deadlines, like the writing portion is really just going to be like three months. So I'm a fast writer, my background is in journalism.

So at this point in my career, I just know what I need to do to get this project done. Get your butt in the chair, get the outline, just start writing. I might start at the middle of the book, the beginning of the book, the end of the book, whatever is like hitting me in that moment so that I can get it done.

If some idea is flowing, I'm going to run with it. I'm not going to necessarily write the book from beginning to end because, again, I'm doing a lot of nonfiction. So that has helped me make these projects worth it. Also, maybe not like over researching, because I know, especially with a journalism background, I could easily fall into that rabbit hole.

For the most part, I've had very few projects where I'm like, ugh, that was not worth my time. Those were mostly like kids' craft and science experiment books. Those just take more time because you have to test the crafts, test the science experiments, maybe something didn't work and you have to scrap that whole page or that chapter, do it again. So again, I've just kind of learned that if I'm going to take on a project like that it has to pay quite high.

If I'm going to take on an early reader for National Geographic or something, those are really fun and quick to write and they pay well. So there's such a wide range in the kids' publishing world.

I have friends who do a lot of work for hire fiction, and they are just excellent at it. They love developing story and just pumping it out, like that's their favorite part of the process. They're just going through the process and can just do it as fast as they can. I'm not super fast with fiction, which is why I haven't taken as many fiction projects. I do really well with short stories where I have some constraints, but not the idea of a whole fiction project that is work for hire.

I think, for me, it's good because you are given some characters and a loose outline and an idea. So it's more almost like a writing prompt. You know, like I'm almost getting paid to execute a writing prompt.

So it kind of just depends on if that's something that sounds exciting to you or not. Like, for me, I work good under deadlines, I work good when I have a little prompt and a format. You're often given a title and the page count.

Usually it's part of a series because this is work for hire. So I wrote something for American Girl, it was A Smart Girl's Guide: Travel, and they have a whole Smart Girl's Guide series.

Joanna: So you get a style guide?Aubre: Yes, like I know what these other books look like, I know kind of how they're divided up. I've read a lot of them. I'm just familiar with it, so it just comes faster.

Joanna: I've met quite a lot of writers who have written in the Star Wars universe, or The X Files. All of these franchises, they do have the book of the TV show or the film. You know, Doctor Who, or that kind of thing. So I feel like this is quite common. It's funny, it's kind of common, but not talked about that much.

Aubre: Well, exactly, which is why I wanted to talk about it.

Joanna: It's so interesting. You said earlier that you do get royalties. Now, I thought this was one of the biggest issues, certainly with some of the worlds and universes that people have written in, is that they do not get royalties. Often work for hire is—whatever's in the contract, obviously—but usually it's: you write it, we pay you once, and you never see any other money. That is kind of the freelance model.

Does that just differ by contract?I mean, even if you do get royalties, it must only be a small percentage.

Aubre: Yes, it just depends on the contract and depends on the publisher. So I've gotten them for multiple publishers. Then also some publishers decide, well, if we came up with the idea in-house and you executed, then it's a flat fee. If you come up with an idea and we run with it, then we'll give you royalties. So I've had that happen too.

So it just depends on the project, and the publisher, and the budget, and also on negotiating. Most people don't use an agent for work for hire projects because the pay is less. So it's not really financially worth an agent to go seek out these projects.

So when you establish these connections and relationships, you can learn a bit more depending on the publisher. There's certainly a lot of work for hire opportunities that pay royalties.

I mean, I just see like Disney Publishing coming out with a lot of different fiction series and working with big name authors. I have to assume that those are paying royalties. So there's all different levels of work for hire projects.

Joanna: Okay, so you said there's loads of work out there. So how would people get into it if they wanted to? Like I sometimes say to people, well, you can write a book for them, and one for you. You can use it as almost day job type money while you're building up your own stuff.

How would people get that kind of work?Aubre: So I think particularly in the kids' book industry, it would be beneficial if you had some experience writing for kids.

Whether that be magazines, or your own stuff that you've created, or even if you have a teaching background, you've developed curriculum, or you've created programming and libraries. School teachers and librarians often become children's book authors.

Then I do a lot of networking at, as I said, children's book conferences. So very occasionally there'll be a panel about work for hire, but even if there's not, anytime you meet an editor you can just ask them. “Do you do any work for hire projects? Does your publishing house do any work for a prior projects?” You know, “Do you know an editor who does any work for hire projects?”

You can find a lot of this on LinkedIn too if you search for editors at various publishing houses. Not everybody fills out their LinkedIn, but if you are looking for keywords like “works with freelancers,” “hires freelancers,” like “develops concepts in house,” and then “finds writers to execute them.”

If you look, a lot of these editors work in the licensing division because this is who's in charge of the intellectual property and franchise and those types of projects.

There's so many TV shows, and if you've walked around a bookstore, you've seen this.

So many TV shows, movies, brands who then want to create a publishing program around that IP. They reach out to a publisher, and the publisher acts as a consultant and helps them develop this program.

Usually, that means they're developing the concept in house, and then they're hiring a writer to execute it. So basically, LinkedIn and conferences is where I've done a lot of my networking. Then I have—I'm a little bit extra—so I have like flown to New York and set up meetings and gone out of my way to really get my face in front of some editors.

Joanna: Then I guess once you've done one or two things, then you know the right people.

Aubre: Yes, then it's much easier to spin those projects into further work.

Joanna: I just want to come back on another of the negative things here. So there's been some court cases around this type of stuff, so if you're writing in someone else's world, even if the contract is that you come up with your own ideas. Let's say you come up with a new character, but you write it into an American Girl world, you no longer have control of that character. That's usually the way it works.

If you've written it into their world, then they own it.Aubre: Right. I feel like even in the traditional model of publishing, you're giving up the copyright as well. So I don't see it as too different than that way. Even if you pitched your project to a traditional publisher, and they signed you, they would own the copyright to that project, you know.

Joanna: Only if that's what the contract was, how long you assign the copyright to a publisher. Only if they ask for life of term of copyright, do they have it for term of copyright.

I think this is really important in terms of mixing IP. So it might be tempting. Like, I know people who get co-writing deals with bigger names, and then they kind of feel like they want to write a character from their series into someone else's world.

You just have to be so careful with this commingled IP because you don't know. I mean, the thing is that so many authors think, oh, well, my stuff isn't that valuable, and that other person's stuff is more valuable. That may not be where it is in like 20 years though.

Aubre: Right. I've never experienced that. Any fictional character writing that I've done has been in a pretty strict universe, like Disney Princess, you know, where there's very strict brand guidelines. I wouldn't even be allowed to necessarily create a new character. It would really be existing characters within the universe. So I haven't really confronted that.

Joanna: Okay. So it's interesting because, of course, you've done a lot, and you still do a lot of this writing in other universities, but you also have your own series, The Look Up Series.

Tell us more about that and why you're so passionate about STEAM.I thought it was “STEM” and you used both, I think. Explain that if people don't know.

Aubre: So STEAM and STEM. STEM is science, technology, engineering, and math. The A in STEAM is for art. So STEM has sort of naturally progressed into STEAM because, and as I've met many women in STEM and interviewed them, you really can't do a lot of these more scientific and technical fields without a creative mindset.

As a kid, I was always creative and thought that meant I'm an author, I'm an illustrator, that's where I am. I'm not a scientist, I'm not good at math. It turns out that these more scientific and technical fields actually require you to be super creative when it comes to problem solving or anything. So I have a series called The Look Up Series, and it features real women in STEM. It's targeted for 8- to 12-year-olds, it's like a middle grade nonfiction series.

Each book features a really awesome career, really amazing woman, and sort of what she was like as a kid, what this career is like, how do you get into this career.

So for example, I have Dr. Maya, Ice Cream Scientist. So she's a real woman who is an ice cream scientist. So it's interesting to see how she has her PhD in food science, but she's also being very creative using flavor, and visuals, and ice cream.

It's this cool mix of science, and arts, and just helping kids get excited about really cool careers in science and technology and engineering, and also learning that just because they have maybe been pegged as creative or artsy, doesn't mean that they can't also land in these more scientific and technical fields.

These jobs are really in high demand, you know, as the next generation enters the workforce. We need people to be solving the world's biggest problems, which is often in these STEM fields. There's obviously a huge wage gap and gender gap when it comes to these careers, which is why I'm featuring women. I have diverse women on the cover, just so every kid can see themselves in these roles.

Joanna: What did you bring to your series, in terms of the lessons learned from all these other IP worlds you've worked in?Aubre: So it was very important to me to, one, create a series. So I'd always been interested in self-publishing. I'd always been traditionally published, I've written more than 50 books for kids for like major publishers.

For many reasons, like we mentioned the content hamster wheel, we mentioned royalties, IP, all that, and I wanted to create my own thing and have more income potential. I also just wanted to write on a project that was purely me that I was super passionate about.

I certainly could have pitched this to a publisher, and I think I could have got some bites, but I really wanted to do it myself. It was a nice test of all of my publishing knowledge. So it was important to me to create a series, so there was more potential in marketing it and making an income. Then I really just got to learn everything.

I would say it's been both easier and harder than I thought. Easier, in that like none of the systems, or the technology, or the gatekeepers behind ads, or awards, or reviews, or whatever are complicated. Like you can definitely figure it out as an indie author.

What was harder for me was like the mindset and the investment, like you really have to cut out to be an entrepreneur. That means spending money on ads and maybe not turning a profit right away. That was really hard, and still is hard for me.

It's an investment, but it brings me back to the books I've written where, you know, a lot of my books are only marketed for couple of weeks. So the benefit is that I can continue to market this series, and it won't get pulled off the shelf. I can recover it, I can retitle it, I can kind of do whatever I need to do with this series.

Also, as we mentioned with American Girl, thinking beyond the book. I can create a web series, or I see a lot of indie children's book authors creating plushies or like little stuffed animals to accompany their books. So there's just like more potential because I chose to do this project on my own.

Then I was pregnant with my second daughter as I was creating the series. I was like birthing five books while also preparing to birth a child. So I created this whole series while I was pregnant with her. It was just like I felt more of a legacy to leave for them. I felt like it was a passion project, and it just felt good to do this project. So that was why I wanted to do it on my own.

Joanna: Yes.

A lot of it comes down to control when traditionally published authors go indie.Most people say it's creative control, that's the main reason, because you don't have that. Once you've written something, even if you've got a lot of freedom in writing some of these things before, you weren't in control of anything else. You can't fix it later or change the cover, and like you said, there's no point in marketing those projects.

Aubre: Yes, if I'm not getting royalties on a book, what's my incentive to market it, and many books have been taken off the shelf.

So it just felt, as I said, just really good to be in creative control, know that my efforts are going to continue to help this series be a success, and also know that it was just aligned with my beliefs. It was just a project I was truly passionate about. It was funny how it kind of came to be because I was actually pulling onto the Disney campus for a project, I was meeting with my editor, and I passed the Disney Imagineering building.

I used to, when I was a kid, I wanted to be an Imagineer. They're like the engineers and artists that designed the theme park rides, and I had just completely forgot about it. I was like, oh my god, in another life, I would have been going into that building instead of this building. Like, you know, what was missing that I didn't become an Imagineer? So every project informs another project, I guess.

Joanna: Absolutely. Well, it's interesting, I mean, you did mention that you're an illustrator.

Did you illustrate these?Aubre: Well, I wouldn't call myself an illustrator, but I was always very into art. So on these books, because my background is at American Girl and we were very until girl aesthetic, I decided to make little doodles on the cover.

So the covers have my doodles, which are not great because they're supposed to look like girl doodles. So I have made doodles for American Girl Magazine and some books, but I am not a formal illustrator.

Joanna: So you didn't hire someone separately to do that?

Aubre: I didn't. The books are nonfiction, so each book is sort of a combination of a biography and activity book. So I relied on the women I interviewed to provide a lot of photos from their childhood. Then combined with these doodles of mine, we were able to piece this project together without an illustrator, because frankly, it would have been quite expensive. I was funding this project myself and launching with five books from the jump.

So maybe one day, I'll be able to invest in an illustrator and add that to this project. I know my covers feature real women on them, like we did a little photoshoot. So that makes the series stand out a little bit, in a good way or bad way, in that it's a biography for kids, but it features a non-illustrated cover because these are real women. So it was just kind of a creative decision that I decided to give a try.

Joanna: Yes, because there is a series for girls that has real people, but a sort of cartoon version of them, isn't there? Like sort of Maya Angelou and people like that.

Aubre: Yes, most of them are illustrated. Even if they feature real people, the covers are illustrated.

Joanna: That's interesting. It's interesting that you have based this on, and you've got photos from, real people.

You must have had some proper contracts done to work with those people and use their image and their photos in your books.Like that must have been a bit of a process.

Aubre: Yes, I did work with a lawyer to draft up some contracts. Also, I didn't want them to think I was like owning their story. Like they can go on and write more books about themselves if they would like.

I basically did the two-plus hour interview with each woman and then translated that into a biography, like a first-person biography. Then I combined it with knowledge of what the field is like, and you know, what this particular career is like.

There were also just questions like: What is college? What is a major? What is a PhD? Then I created some activities at the end so kids can feel like they are an ice cream scientist. We also have Amanda, Toy Engineer, and Angella, Beauty Chemist, and Tracey, Theme Park Designer. So I didn't get to become an Imagineer, but I did get to interview one. So I got part of what I wanted as a kid.

Joanna: That's very cool. I guess that contract with those women—

They understand that they're not getting royalties from the books.Aubre: Correct. I did compensate them for their time, which is unheard of in a journalistic sense, but I felt that was important. I was really relying on their knowledge, and I think the women I work with are really passionate about getting other girls into STEM. So it was a passion project for them as well. They were very happy to be a part of it.

Joanna: I think all of that is so important. So if people are wanting to work with real people, in whatever situation, there should be communication of what everything is and contractual terms.

The point of a contract is it doesn't need to be confrontational in any way, it's more a case of just making sure everything's right for copyright and all of that.In the self-publishing space, I get questions from people because people are bootstrapping, they're doing it themselves. But in these cases, it is very important to get all of those permissions and stuff up front.

Aubre: Yes, that's one of the reasons I didn't have an illustrator because of the legal fees.

Joanna: Yes, I get you. Although if people do use an illustrator, for example, then they also need a contract to make sure the copyright is assigned, and all of that kind of thing. So publishing is a business, like it's a proper business.

Aubre: It is. Absolutely.

Joanna: You've learned that as well. So I do want to ask you about the marketing, because of course, when you're doing work for hire, the marketing is not really your job, but when you're self-publishing, it is your job.

How are you doing marketing for your own series?Aubre: So I feel like I kind of have two customers. It's the kids' book world, so it's different. So I've got parents, but then I also have teachers and librarians.

So I'm on Amazon, I did KDP, I did print on demand to start with. Then I've also done a print run and have a direct-to-consumer site, thelookupseries.com, so I can offer discounts to teachers and librarians and discounts on bulk orders.

I went to the American Library Association Conference, and it was very clear to me very quickly that they don't have large budgets. You know, they are really tight in these schools and libraries. So it was important to me to be able to offer something off of Amazon where I could offer like a bulk discount.

Then I've got the Amazon business, relying on Amazon ads. I do a little bit of Facebook marketing where I'm offering a free activity download, kind of targeting Girl Scout troop leaders or teachers or anyone who has like a STEM space, like a makerspace in a library.

I've pulled a little activity from Amanda, Toy Engineer and from Tracey, Theme Park Designer, to capture email addresses and build up my email list. I have done the LA Times Festival of Books and some other children's book specific conferences.

My next step is I want to go to more STEM-focused conferences. I live in Los Angeles, and there are a lot of like STEM events for kids. Free one-day events where you can get a booth, and I think that would be a great place for me to be.

So I need to remind myself to step out of the children's publishing world a little bit. I'm very much like, oh, I'm going to go to the library conference and go to LA Times Festival of Books.

It's like, oh, there are other marketing opportunities besides book people. Like there are STEM people and people who are looking for science content for their kids. So I'm trying to be better about marketing on a more broader sense to those people as well.

Joanna: I think that's such a great idea, because let's face it, the children's book conferences are full of traditional publishers, but also all the other books are there. Whereas if you if you've got a booth, and then you're next to some science thing and some genetics thing, you're the only one with books, and that makes you stand out.

So I think that's so good for anyone who writes anything that has a theme, some kind of theme. It doesn't have to be nonfiction, I think you could still do it with fiction, as long as the theme aligns with that.

Aubre: Absolutely.

Joanna: Do you do any live events?Going into schools or anything like that? Or is that just not scalable enough?

Aubre: I do. I'm looking at building that up more. COVID really took a hit on that. So I had a little momentum, and then it got squashed. Now I'm trying to maybe pick that up again. Now that I have done my own print run, and I can offer bulk discounts and that kind of thing, I feel better about investing some time into that.

So I have done some school visits, in particular, that are more like going into the auditorium for multiple grade levels, something a little bit bigger than just visiting one classroom. I do offer like a free 15-minute virtual visit on my website, just for individual classrooms. I just kind of see that as a volunteer thing I can offer. That's kind of where I'm at right now with that.

I do think it's important that you've done your own print run and are able to offer your books at a discount. If you're buying your author copies from Amazon, from KDP, like I don't know if the financials will start to work out for you.

Joanna: Oh, no, completely. A lot of kids' authors use Ingram Spark, and then the schools can order direct.

Aubre: Yes, so I do have that as well. I just have a little bit more of a royalty from my separate print run.

Joanna: Absolutely. Well, then how do you see your future?

How are you going to balance the work for hire with building your own brand and your own book series?Aubre: I mean, I definitely focused solely on The Look Up Series for like six months as I was launching them, before I had my second daughter. Then coming back, I really hit the ground running on marketing those books, even more after my maternity leave.

Now I'm doing both, I'm balancing work for hire projects with The Look Up Series. It's actually really nice because with work for hire, like I mentioned, it can feel like you're on a treadmill and hustling your next gig. Now I feel like I can kind of calm down a bit and wait for the next good gig that I actually want.

I know I'm not wasting my time because I'm in the between because I'm working on The Look Up Series. I'm bringing in an income and building up my business for this more financially lucrative potential.

I'm not just like wasting my time waiting around for a project, and maybe taking a project that doesn't pay well or that I don't want to do. I just feel like I'm actually working on something that can last with The Look Up Series.

Joanna: Fantastic.

Where can people find you and your books online?Aubre: So I'm at AubreAndrus.com. You can check out The Look Up Series at TheLookUpSeries.com.

If you want to learn a little bit more about work for hire, you can go to AubreAndrus.com/WFH. If you're interested, in particular, in like how to break into the children's book industry, you can learn a bit more about my background in that.

Joanna: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Aubre. That was great.

Aubre: Thank you for having me. It was so nice to bring this to light. I know so many people who it's their life dream to become a children's book author. So that's why I like sharing this like secret backdoor, this other part of the industry that people don't really talk about.

It's just another skill in your toolkit, like as an author and a writer. If you ever have a goal to write for a TV show or something one day, writing in these IP, and these characters, and for these brands is just always like a really good skill to have.

Joanna: Yes. Well, thanks so much for your time.

Aubre: Thank you.

The post How Writing Work For Hire Books Led To Becoming An Indie Author With Aubre Andrus first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How can you use automation and tools to help you streamline your creative and business processes so you can get back to the writing? Chelle Honiker gives some mindset and practical tips.

In the intro, IBPA guide to publishing models; We need to talk about independence [Self Publishing Advice article; my podcast episode with Orna Ross]; The Financial Times signs a partnership deal with OpenAI [FT]; The Big Leap — Gay Hendricks; AI Tools on Brave New Bookshelf; Spear of Destiny; Stone Hunters by Rod Penn;

Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital to get started.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Chelle Honiker is the co-founder and publisher of Indie Author Magazine, Indie Author Training, Indie Author Tools, and Direct2Readers.com. She's also an author, speaker, podcaster, and program manager at the Author Nation Conference.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Finding a community with other indie authors
• Blocks that might stop authors from using technology effectively
• How to figure out which tools work best for your creative process and author business
• Moving into new and reinvented processes as technology changes
• Using Zapier to automate your author business
• When to use a tool vs. when to outsource a task
• What to expect in the upcoming Author Nation Conference

You can find Chelle at ChelleHoniker.com, IndieAuthorMagazine.com, IndieAuthorTraining.com, and AuthorNation.live.

Transcript of Interview with Chelle HonikerJoanna: Chelle Honiker is the co-founder and publisher of Indie Author Magazine, Indie Author Training, Indie Author Tools, and Direct2Readers.com. She's also an author, speaker, podcaster, and program manager at the Author Nation Conference. So welcome to the show, Chelle.

Chelle: Thanks, Joanna. It's good to be here.

Joanna: So first up—

Tell us a bit more about your background and how you decided to build businesses to help indie authors.Chelle: Sure. Actually, you're a little bit at fault for this, so I'll explain that. My background is that I started in the travel industry. I was a technology and training professional for many, many years. I had my own consultancy for a very long time.

In 2016/2017, I was in Austin, Texas, and I went to a bunch of meetings for NaNoWriMo. I met just the most vibrant authors there, and we got connected. Then I went to the Smarter Artist Summit, and I met those guys. At that conference, I met Craig Martelle, who then went on to start 20Booksto50k conferences.

I went to the 20Booksto50k conference in Edinburgh in 2019. At that conference, I met my business partner, Alice Briggs, who coincidentally also lives in Texas, but nine hours away because it's a ginormous state. We had to go all the way to Scotland to meet. When we came back as accountability partners, we had a group of friends that we'd met at that conference. Then I went to the SPF Conference where you spoke. I actually went to London to hear you speak, so that's where you thread in here.

Then we all know what happened in 2020, the whole world shut down in the middle of that conference. So I was in Ireland for four months, sort of “stranded.” I say “stranded” in air quotes because I wasn't really stranded, but I had decided to stay over there because my airline went bankrupt, and it was just going to be really difficult to get back. My townhouse was up for a lease again, and it was just a whole mess.

So I stayed in Ireland, and I sort of put up a bat signal for friends to write with. We had 24 of us that started to Zoom together twice a day. We were sharing tips and tricks, and things that we were doing, and courses we were taking, and podcasts we were listening to, and sharing our lives on top of that.

So we would hear about what was going on in Germany, and Albania, and Malta, and just all over the world. All of us were from everywhere around the world. From that, we started a website called Indie Author Tools, which was really just sort of a crowdsource place for us to stick everything.

Then when I came back to the States, Alice and I separately had been thinking about starting a magazine or something that would provide more context for all of the stuff that we were learning, and a way for us to dive in a little bit deeper. So with those original 24 people, we started the magazine three years ago. We're three, we turned three!

Joanna: That SPF Conference, as you say, that almost didn't happen. James, kind of as a joke, wore a hazmat suit on stage. Then lockdown happened very soon after. So, I mean, that's kind of crazy. As you were talking now, I was wondering—

Do you identify as an introvert or are you an extrovert?Chelle: So I'm an ambivert, actually. I'm like right smack in the middle of it. It just depends, so I'm an equal part of both. It's funny though because I lean more towards introvert, like I'm technically an INTJ. Robert Downey Jr. and I are both INTJ. I can get excited about being around people, but then I have to retreat.

Joanna: You're quite a connector, obviously, because you create things that are bigger than you. I really admire that. This is something I struggle with. I always had the feedback at school and in my jobs, like, “does not play well with others,” or “needs to be a better team member.” I'm just not very good at that. So I really appreciate what you're doing. I mean, you're creating much bigger things than just an individual person.

Chelle: Well, I love that you recognize that, but I also have to say I have an amazing group of friends and team members. So it's me that sort of says things, but there's a lot of crazy ideas that come from a lot of different places.

I'm just a number one activator, so I synthesize and distill the crazy ideas that everybody has into something else. So I'm very aware that I'm surrounded by genius all day, every day. I get up and play with my best friends every day as a job, like that's the greatest thing ever.

Joanna: I love that, and we all need that.

The author community would literally have no conferences without people like you.Chelle: It's so funny because this is such a generous industry, and there are so many people that sort of step up and say, hey, I'm going to do this. It's probably one of the most interesting—just from looking at it from the business perspective, from the outside looking in, it is still a small industry, so to speak. Everybody sort of knows everybody, but it's so generous, and people are so supportive.

There's not a lot of cutthroat competition for business like there is in other industries. I think the coolest thing that I see is that we're not in competition to sell a product with one another. Authors aren't competing with one another to sell books, in the strictest sense.

We all have our end product as a happy, satisfied reader. They don't buy one book, they buy multiple books. So it's very different than other industries, and it's so unique. I think it's why we stick around and have such success in the industry, in terms of satisfaction, in terms of wanting to keep doing things. We're not getting beaten up continuously by a zero-sum game or market forces that force us to be mean or cutthroat. It's just a very different industry, and I love it. I absolutely love it.

Joanna: Well, that's fantastic. I agree with you. I feel like we definitely do not compete in terms of books and readers, but we do compete on things like ad spend, and pay per click, and all of that kind of thing, but that's quite different.

So I do want to talk to you particularly about technology and tools. You mentioned Indie Author Tools. I do see that a lot of authors get enthusiastic around notebooks, and pens, and some writing software, but mostly a lot of authors struggle with using technology and tools to improve their process.

They often will kind of shy away from spending even very little money for a tool that will help them. So I wondered—

What are the biggest blocks you see to authors using technology effectively?Chelle: I think there's two that I see. The first is overwhelm because we're responsible for doing all the things, #allthethings.

We're responsible for writing the book, and then also making sure it's edited, and making sure that it's got a great blurb, and got a great cover, and got things that are on brand, and then we have to be responsible for marketing. So I think just in the sense of that's—

The opportunity of an indie author is to be in control of your career, but it's also the overwhelm that comes with it.Especially as creatives, I hear a lot of people say, “I just want to write the book.” I mean, you just can't. This is an industry that requires that you be an entrepreneur and requires that you take charge of your career.

So if you reframe it as an opportunity, it gets a little less overwhelming, but the first is overwhelm, and the second is time. I think that's probably the biggest factor is people don't feel like they've got time to adopt it, or there's too much that they have to think about. It's just where do you start?

Those are the two biggest obstacles, but I think that if you reframe it as an opportunity to learn something new, and you reframe it as an opportunity to market yourself, and get excited about your books, and get excited about sharing your books.

If you think of marketing and technology as tools to do that, rather than the next thing you ‘have to do,' then I think that makes a big difference in terms of mindset.Joanna: I was thinking about this as you were talking, the choice is also really difficult.

So just even take editing, for example, the two biggest ones would be Grammarly and ProWritingAid. Even just the choice between one or the other tool, and there are loads more out there, can be difficult for people.

There's also budget involved. So if people are assessing a number of tools for pretty much the same thing—

What would you say is the best process for figuring out what tools work for that person?Chelle: So I think those are choices that you have to make personally, you have to get comfortable with them personally. I've used both Grammarly and ProWritingAid, but I had to spend a little bit of time and understand my own process.

Then I had to make a decision which one was best and which one wasn't as overwhelming or fit in with my process. The good thing is both of them have free trials. So I'm big on free. I'm a freemium girl. I love free. So I'm always looking for things that I can try free and see if it fits, and then figure out how it fits in with my process instead of trying to rewire my process.

That's another thing, you know, as a technologist, I try all the things and I want to do all of the things. The thing that I came back to is there are some things that aren't really, technologically speaking, helpful.

So I write down my calendar each day. I have a digital calendar, I have digital reminders, but I use tactile to write down my schedule and my things for the day on a piece of paper. That seems so strange, but it's making sure the technology fits in with the way that you do things, rather than saying, “Oh, I'm going to have to go to a digital calendar,” or “I'm going to have to use this digital tool,” or “I'm going to have to use this thing.”

So when you evaluate it, think about your objective and think about your style and the way that you work. Make sure that you're choosing things, they can be small things or big things, to help you do the thing that you want to do better.

Don't try and fit yourself into some box that won't ultimately fit because then you'll be frustrated.The other thing that I think is also helpful is asking people that are similar to you. Find a community that you can ask questions that can help you evaluate those things.

Not in the broadest terms, like “other authors,” that's a very big bucket. If you ask other romance writers or other hockey romance writers about certain tools, right, one tool might be better than another tool for your specific genre or your specific need.

That's where community is hugely helpful in this industry. We have such a solo mindset sometimes when writing, so I think we all need to find our people that we can trust, and ask questions, and ask stupid questions. I love that. I love stupid questions. People think there are stupid questions. There's no such thing as a stupid question. None, none whatsoever.

Joanna: Totally true. It is interesting because I feel like it is also about asking authors who have similar process. For example, I'm a discovery writer, and I tried so many times to use tools like Plottr and some of these other ones that really try to help you with plotting and structuring, but that's not my creative process.

Every time I try one of these tools, I'm like, this is just too constraining for my chaotic brain. Then I go back to, well, pretty much just being chaotic and dumping stuff into Scrivener and figuring it out later, using notebooks and things like that.

So that is, as you said, find people who are similar to you in that way. Then you do have to feel whether or not it's good or not. I think there is almost something to —

Just try it and see, and if you hate it, like just ditch it.Chelle: Yes, and don't feel any shame about ditching it either. There's a lot of people that can be prescriptive about how to do things, and I've come away feeling like, oh my gosh, I don't get up at six o'clock in the morning and write for two hours, I'm a failure. If I want to be successful, I have to do this.

No, you have to find what's best for you, and technology is just one part of that. So I used to try to write five days a week, I can't write five days a week, it's just too exhausting. So I have two days a week where I just go full bore for six hours and just write in sprints and spurts. Then I edit in sprints and spurts.

I think that when people say develop your writing muscle, they don't realize that you can have muscles that you engage on different days of the week. It doesn't have to be an everyday thing. I see too many people feel like they're a failure or they're frustrated. You know, kick that to the curb. Do what makes you happy and find your bliss. Do what works for you.

Joanna: Yes, I totally agree with that. So I also did want to ask around process because, of course, there are specific tools. I've been doing this a long time now, since 2008, and I feel like I have got stuck in my processes for an amount of time.

So you mentioned calendar there. For ages, since I'm in the UK, I would email backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards with people, trying to find a time where we could actually meet. Then in the end, I got Calendly, which is fantastic. So if people are doing regular meetings across time zones, Calendly is just so useful.

Another one that's interesting right now is social media. I started on Twitter in 2009, and I really got into a rut of what that was for me. Then, of course, when Elon Musk took over and it all blew up, I just kind of threw in the towel and was like, oh, I just can't do it anymore.

I was struggling to reinvent myself, and I feel like a lot of authors are also feeling that way in social media worlds, but also in other ways.

How do we break out of processes when we're stuck in a rut?Like how can we move out of that into a new reinvented process?

Chelle: So my best advice around that is to take a look at the things that are causing you pain. Take a look at the things that are causing you to not have enough hours in the day for the thing that you want. Then sort of gap problem solve, look at the specific problems.

So, for example, I was getting really overwhelmed by my email, and my email box was just completely out of control. My process was that I would get in there in the morning, and then I would triage my email, and then I would save everything that I was going to deal with.

Then I would go on about my day thinking that I was going to get to that thing at two o'clock in the afternoon. Well, I never got to that thing at two o'clock in the afternoon. So eventually, my email box had like 670 emails, and that's a problem because all of them required action.

So that was my pain point. That was the thing that was causing me frustration. So what I did was I have someone else triage my email for me. Then they put it into a series of buckets: these are the things that need action, these are the things that just are FYI, and these are the things that you need to do.

I was very fortunate that I had somebody to do that, but that's also one of the tools that you can use AI for. I know —

There's a lot of controversy around AI, but some of the AI tools are genuinely just there to help you get back to the thing that you love to do, which I think is writing for most of us.So my best advice, again, is look for the thing that's causing you problems, and then make some changes around those things. You can do it shortly, and you can do it small.

You don't have to rewire your whole office. That's what Alice calls it when I go on these big rants with technology and rebuild everything, and say, “Okay, well now we're moving everything to Notion.” You know, that's not always the best thing.

So start small and look at the things that are causing you to keep away from the thing that you love to do. Start with just that thing in mind.

Joanna: It's funny you mentioned Notion because I've been hearing a lot about it. They incorporate AI in everything, and I was like, I've got to try Notion. Anyway, I literally went on there, and within five minutes, I was like this is not for me.

Chelle: I did too. Here's the funny thing, I was an Evernote girl forever. I was an Evernote evangelist, and I loved Evernote. I had no less than 4000 notes in there. Then they changed, and I was really upset about the change. I was really upset about the way that they removed devices.

They moved all their support outside of the States, which was frustrating for me because I had people in Austin that I would just ping and say, “Hey, what's this?” and they got laid off. I was really upset.

So I said, alright, I'll go to Notion. I was with you, five minutes in I was like, I hate this thing, I absolutely hate this thing. Then my daughter, my millennial daughter, came over and said you're doing this wrong. So sometimes you just need a sherpa to come alongside you and say, “If you do this, this, and this, you'll love it.” And I did, I did that, that, and that, and I went, “Oh, I love this now.”

Sometimes leaving it to our own devices to evaluate something isn't always the greatest. Sometimes you kind of need somebody to come alongside you and show you just the thing that you need to know.

You don't need to know the whole big Notion app, you just need to know how can I put a task in and check it off? How can I put in a note from a web clip? How can I just do the small things?

I think we just get so overwhelmed sometimes that we don't realize that we don't have to use everything. I don't use the generative AI in Notion at all. I don't like it.

Joanna: Yes, different things for different things. It's interesting, you said they changed about Evernote. I think this is another point, like I said, Twitter which became X, it changed. What's so interesting is I've come back to X now, and I'm literally treating it like a completely new platform, even though I'm the same @thecreativepenn.

I'm like, okay, this is a new platform. I don't have to think of it like it used to be, I need to think of it as a completely new thing. That has really helped my mindset Whereas I feel like when things change, for example, in the US as we record this, with TikTok there may be a ban, but probably it will just change hands and belong to another company, but it will change.

Chelle: It will change.

Joanna: We have to be flexible. You and I have been around long enough, things change, tools change, sites change, publishers change.

We can't be fixed in our processes or our technology because things move on.Chelle: It's true, and those are the frustrating things. Market conditions being what they are, TikTok is going to change hands, but TikTok's already been through a change.

When they introduced TikTok Shop, a lot of things changed. The “for you” page changed, and people couldn't get the visibility and the traction that they once had. Now, with the music changing, there's so many changes.

The beauty of being an indie is that we can pivot. We can pivot. We don't have to take it to a committee and a board, and they make decisions, and then we study market strategies for 12 months, and then we come out with a plan. We can pivot that day.

Joanna: Actually, that's one of my tips is often these tools will offer you a cheaper rate if you pay for the whole year, but I never do that unless it's something like my hosting or something like that. For any of these tools, I just get it month by month because so often I end up cancelling and not even using things for a whole year. I don't know about you.

Chelle: I do that a lot, actually. I had a calendaring app that I used that I did love, I did like it, but it didn't fit in with our company strategy. So it was me out here and then the rest of the team over there, and there was just too much friction for it to work. So I had paid for a whole year, and I lost like $200. I was really upset about that. I agree with you. I don't do that anymore. I just pay month to month.

Joanna: So I was told about an amazing presentation you did at the Future of Publishing Conference on Zapier, and I wanted to talk about that in particular. So for anyone who doesn't know—

What is Zapier? Why is it so useful?Chelle: So I liken Zapier to the one ring to rule them all. It is a connector of apps. So if you have two apps that don't natively talk to each other, for example, WordPress and Facebook. They're two separate companies. They're two separate things. There's not a direct integration between the two.

Zapier can bridge that gap. It can connect and talk to those two apps. So you can post a blog on your WordPress site, and it can automatically post a social post on Facebook.

So there's other ways to do that, but Zapier has very special powers. It connects something like 5000 different apps together. So the most obscure apps can be connected together. There's other companies that have ways to do that. There's Make and IFTTT, there's all kinds of them, but Zapier, in my world, it's the one ring to rule them all.

Joanna: So what are some examples? You mentioned 5000 possibilities, but—

What are some of the best use cases that you've seen for authors using Zapier?Chelle: Well, one of the things that I say is I don't build on rented land. That philosophy comes from years and years and years of having mistakes made and seeing things happen. So one of my philosophical things is that I don't use the email subscription forms from the email service providers. So I like what they do, I like Mailerlite, I like MailChimp, I like all of them to do the job, but I don't let them collect email addresses on my behalf.

What I do is I start with a form on my website, and then I use Zapier to take that email address and then send it over to an email validation service to make sure that that's a valid email before it goes on to my email service providers list.

That prevents spam bots and all the junk from cluttering up my email list. For most email service providers, you pay for the number of people that are on your list. So if you use Zapier to collect the email, validate it with a service provider first, and then if it's a good address, put it on your list, you're not paying for junk.

Then you can also use Zapier to put that email address into a backup spreadsheet with the IP address that it subscribed from, so that if some catastrophic failure happens with your email service provider, you have a backup copy of your email list. So those are just some small ways to get started with it, to build those Zaps so that you have some protection built in.

I did a poll one time at Indie Author Magazine and said, “Hey, how many people have backed up your email lists lately?” It was like 3% of people. We just trust that the email service providers are keeping our email list safe, but they're subject to market conditions too. What if they go out of business? What if Elon Musk buys MailChimp tomorrow? Who knows what will happen? No one knows.

Joanna: That is true. Well —

That's a good reminder to everyone to back up their email list. I tend to do mine every couple of months, but I'm going to go do it after this. What about social media?

I feel like this is something where social media has really splintered, and a lot of people are posting the same thing on multiple platforms and changing some things and others. So do you recommend using Zapier for any of that kind of thing?

Chelle: So I have a Zap set up that when I have something in social media that I want, we use articles obviously from the magazine, we have a Zap that will read a spreadsheet row in Google Sheets with the bulk of the article. Then we send a prompt to OpenAI, to ChatGPT, and we ask it to create a social post using our voice, using our Avatar Indie Annie, and we say, “Can you please write an appropriate social media post?”

We do a different one for Instagram, a different one for Facebook, a different one for X, a different one for LinkedIn, and a different one for TikTok. Since all of those audiences are different, we're going to speak to them in different ways, and we have different calls to action for them.

For example, when we have ChatGPT write the one for Instagram, we don't have a link in there because the link is in the first comment. So we write it for the different audiences, and then Zapier can write all of those and bring it back into a spreadsheet for us.

Then our human editor that does social media can actually review them. Then at the end of the row is a box that she can check. Then that will actually send them to the different social media platforms. We can connect Zapier with our different social media platforms.

So that's two different Zaps that do things. The first is to generatively create them, and then the second is to actually send them, with that human intervention in the middle there to be sure that it's saying what we want it to say.

We can also have it create images with DALL-E. Zapier connects with DALL-E, and it can create the images and then put those into Dropbox so that our social media person has those.

We could finish that loop and have Zapier actually post to the social media platforms for us, but we use a scheduler because we've got a couple of moving parts in different places from Indie Author Magazine and Indie Author Training. So we have a person in the mix to be sure that that's right. Zapier does the heavy lifting, connecting DALL-E, Google Docs, Google Spreadsheets, Dropbox, and WordPress.

Joanna: Just a question around scheduling—

What scheduler do you use?Chelle: So we have two that we use. We use them for different purposes because we use one for Indie Author Training, and we use one for Indie Author Magazine. We use PromoRepublic for the magazine, and we use VistaCreate for the IndieAuthorTraining.com. The reason why is we loved PromoRepublic, it was connected, but it didn't have TikTok capabilities. It does now, but it didn't have TikTok capabilities.

Then AppSumo, which is my favorite deal. I'm addicted AppSumo. It's really just the most amazing little place to buy lifetime deals on things. We got a lifetime deal on VistaCreate before it was bought by the larger Vista platform. So we will use that because it did have TikTok built in, and now PromoRepublic does have TikTok built in.

Joanna: I mean, I use Buffer. I've used Buffer for years, and they are also adding new platforms in.

What's interesting there is you talked about a human in the loop. I think this is what's really important is we're not saying you are just turning everything into AI and robots. I mean, that may come in a couple of years. I mean, who knows?

I mean, we still want to make sure that what's going out there is in our voice, and you never know what could happen otherwise. So this brings up a question around tool. Do we find a tool or do we outsource to a human? So you mentioned email earlier. I went through a couple of years of outsourcing that same triage process, and now I've taken it back onto myself again.

What would be your decision process around outsourcing to a human or looking for an automated tool that will do that?Chelle: So my philosophy right now is that I use tools to get us as far as we can to give people a head start. Then we always bring in people to finish that process because I want to second set of eyes. Especially as a magazine, we have journalistic standards that we have to meet.

The one thing that we are never going to do is outsource our writing to AI. So all of our articles, we have 68 writers that write for the magazine now, we publish every month, and that's not going to change.

So we still have 68 writers that are writing for the magazine, and we have an editor in chief that goes through every single article. She uses tools for that. She'll use Grammarly ProWritingAid to edit some of those things to the Chicago Manual style.

It's still her that's in there and making sure that things are fact checked and making sure that that's all right.

I'm a big adopter of AI, but I do feel like the one thing that AI can't replicate is the humanity of it. It can't replicate human interaction. That's my litmus test for everything. So if there's some spark of humanity, if we need to make a connection with a reader or make a connection with someone, I at least want to have some humanity involved in that so that there's not some nameless faceless bot that's answering a question or making someone feel a certain way.

I think that's the creative part of being in this industry, and that's the thing that AI really can't replicate is the connection, the human-to-human connection.

Joanna: Let's talk about that more then because many authors don't want to use it for writing or they don't want to use it maybe just for the generation of the words. Although I keep telling people, look, you are not a word generator. Like as an author, we're not word generators.

We are authors, we make meaning, we make connection, we come up with ideas. So even if people are generating words with AI, I don't feel like that is an issue. You know, there'll be editing it and all that kind of thing.

There is more to us than word generation.Chelle: I mean, it's so true. I feel like now we misnamed Indie Author Magazine, it should be Storytellers, because there's so many ways to tell stories. There's so many ways to do that. We are authors, but we're also in the broader sense, storytellers.

We connect people, and we're selling them an experience. So, I mean, AI can do a lot of that, but it can't replicate that. So if you don't want AI to write for you or do those things for you, you can brainstorm with it.

You can have it suggest keywords, you can have it suggest a blurb, you can suggest marketing hooks, you can think outside the box with some weird stuff. I've asked it some really strange things, and it's come back with some really strange things. I'm like, oh, that's the direction I never thought I would take with it.

So you can use it to brainstorm with. You can set it up to do your social media and the junk that you don't love to do. You can use it to create some social imagery if you'd like. You can use it to inspire.

One of the things that I do—so I am not allowed to create graphics for the magazine. This is a sad thing about me. I'm the least creative graphical person on the planet. Like I'm stick figure girl. I'm a binary, I-like-it-or-I-don't-like-it girl when it comes to graphics.

I happen to be partnered with one of the most creative fine artists in the planet, in my opinion, and a lot of others. So we can't talk to each other sometimes. I'll say, “I don't like it.” Then she'll say, “What don't you like about it?” Then I'll say, “I don't know, I just don't like it.”

So she'll have to sort of tease out of me what I don't like about it. So what we've done is we have a Pinterest board, and I can go and I can type in my stupid little grunt work into ChatGPT and spit out a DALL-E image to put on the Pinterest board.

Then Alice will go, “Oh, yes, you need more negative whitespace.” I'm like, “I don't know, sure. What's that mean? I don't get it.”

So you can use AI as a translator to your creative people. You can set it up so that if you've got an idea in your head of what your protagonist looks like, you can type that in and spit out an image to then give to your cover artist to inspire them to create something for you. So it doesn't have to be an all or nothing.

You can use AI in a way that helps you broaden your ideas or communicate your ideas in a better way and an easier way.Joanna: I totally agree with that. As a collaborative tool, it's amazing. I mean, because you can now upload pictures, you can draw a stick figure picture or whatever you want, upload it, and then say, “Can you make this into a better picture?” or whatever, and then give that to your cover designer.

I go back and forwards with my cover designer. Sometimes I'm like, “Here's 15 different images I made. Use them in some way to do something for this book title.” Like you say, you're able to communicate your thoughts and your emotions a lot more through imagery.

Well, what about the future then? Obviously, again, you and I have are already using AI tools as part of our process, and we're already using quite a lot of technology.

Over the next few years, how do you think things are going to change?How much more are indie authors going to use tools? How about things like direct sales as well?

Chelle: Oh, yes. Direct sales, I think, is the future of publishing. I think as some of these tools become more sophisticated and it becomes almost impossible to hear the difference between AI-generated audio and AI-generated videos, we are going to have to decide how we're going to adapt to those things.

I don't think narrators are ever going to go away. I think great narrators will stick around, but I think generative AI does pose some threat to the mass market. So as authors, we're going to have to navigate that, on where our ethics lie, where business decisions lie, and how we're going to respond to that.

I also think that, again, narrators can pivot a little bit and maybe become more editors for some of the translations, because AI can do translations, or add some humanity back into it. There's going to have to be ways that we navigate this carefully and with a lot of grace. I don't have a lot of answers around how that's going to change, but I do know that it is going to change.

One of the things that we're doing at the magazine is we're asking people, what do you think, and where do you think it's going to change? We're asking people that are in positions of decision making, what do you think, how do you think that's going to change, and how are people going to respond to these things?

I saw this in the travel industry, right, because in the travel industry before the internet, before the World Wide Web was a thing, you called a travel agent and you booked an airline ticket. That was the only way you could. There was no direct line to the airlines, you called a travel agent to do it.

When the internet came about, the travel agent was there to back you up and to fix things that you made mistakes with. Now it's more sophisticated, and now you very rarely see travel agents.

They're not there for transactional things anymore, but what they are there for is I will gladly plunk down $300 and have somebody plan my Eurail vacation. I will gladly pay somebody to take that off of me.

AI is not sophisticated enough to do that. It might be in the future, but it's not right now. I also love the thought of collaborating and dreaming with someone about my trip and my travel and my vacation.

So my futurist hat sort of says, I think it's going to be a little bit like that.

We will have some very artisanal items that we do, and there's artisanal narrators, and there's artisanal graphics designers, and then the mass stuff is AI-generated.The market is going to decide. There's a lot of people that just absolutely hate seeing AI imagery. There's a lot of people that are just pushing back.

It's like with anything, there's a lot of fear around it. I think that people are going to figure out that it's not going away. I mean, it's just not. It's not going away.

We did an AI issue, an issue dedicated to AI last year at the magazine. I told Alice at the end of it, when we were putting it together, I said, “Listen, this could be such a hot topic that we're going have to fake our deaths and go work at Waffle House.” Like this is going to be something that could drive us out of business.

We felt very strongly to get the information out there, and that's the stance we took was that we were just going to present the information. What people did with it is completely up to them as a business decision.

We had eight people cancel their subscriptions in protest. They were very, very upset with us for even mentioning AI. Then we had 300 people subscribe, 300 people that were new subscribers.

It's a very vocal minority that are frustrated and angry. Most people are just curious and trying to figure out how to make it work.It changes so rapidly, and there's so much happening. Like even just this week, three things happened that are really, really big that we're still synthesizing and trying to figure out, what does that mean? How does that work? What does that do?

Joanna: It is a fascinating time. I'm so glad you did that issue. I mean, you're probably going to have to do them quite regularly, I guess.

Chelle: Yes. Well, that's actually why we started IndieAuthorTraining.com is to have a more rapid response to that, because we publish one issue a month, right? We can only have so much information in each issue.

Things change so rapidly we wanted to have education, and webinars, and community so that we can have discussions around those in a very safe, positive, proactive way.

We moderate those conversations pretty regularly so that they don't go off track. We've adopted kindergarten rules: no biting, no hitting, and no calling names. So if you want to come and have a conversation about it, just come.

We're all trying to figure it out, and there's no one answer for any of it. There's no one answer for any of it. We have to respond as an industry. So how do we do it ethically and morally and with the best business decisions in mind for longevity? Those are questions that we don't have answered. No one has the answers to those. We're all trying to figure it out.

Joanna: It's good to remember, I mean —

We are independent authors, and we make independent decisions. So the decisions I make can be completely different to another indie author, as we have across many of the things that have happened over the years. As you say, having those rules is quite good. Let's all just respect each other's decisions.

Chelle: Yes, and —

If you are fearful about it, I would encourage people to learn more. People tend to think, “Oh, I know that AI trained on stolen material.” Well, no. That's not the way that it's trained. That's not the way that it works. That's not the way that it learns.

Go beyond the sound bites and really do some digging in and talk to people that know what they're talking about. Don't live in an echo chamber when you're making decisions or finding out things. Get opposing opinions.

One of the things that we did in the AI issue was we had competing conversations about things. We wanted people that were anti-AI to say why they were, and they had great points. They had really, really good, thoughtful questions that we should all be asking.

Like, where does the money come from? Where does the money go? Where are my books being indexed? How are my books being indexed? What can I do to protect myself if I don't want this, if I don't want to be part of this? Those are all good questions. There's no bad question around AI. We should be asking those questions and staying curious.

Joanna: For sure, and you have lots of free webinars and other courses at Indie Author Training, which is brilliant. I did want to ask you just before we finish, you're also the program manager at Author Nation. I have my ticket, I'm planning to be there.

Tell us a bit more about what authors can expect and why they might want to come [to Author Nation]?Chelle: So 20Books has finished, and Joe Solari bought the contracts for the conference space. So we're reimagining what a conference can be. So we're taking some of the things that we've learned over the years, I've been involved with 20Books from the beginning and loved it. I love the spirit of generosity, and I love the fact that people felt welcome and comforted.

Introverts had spaces where they could take a breath and not feel overwhelmed and find people to help them. So we've kept all the best parts, in my opinion, of 20Books because all of the team has been involved with that, but this is a completely reimagined show.

So we start the first day, Monday, with a vendor expo where you can come and meet all the different people that help you sell more books and help you tell better stories. So you can meet Lulu, and you can meet Indie Author Magazine, and you can meet Bookfunnel, and ProWritingAid, and all the different vendors there.

Then we also have some education sessions, some hands-on sessions, which is a little bit different. We've never really had hands on sessions before. So we have a tech cafe where people can come and sit down and learn Facebook ads and sit down and learn how to use some of the tools. I think that's brilliant. Plus, you can listen to Damon Courtney talk about Bookfunnel in his most engaging way and see things on the screen. It's just so different when you're in the same room with someone and you can connect and meet with people in the same room.

Then we have three days of education, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday are jam packed with education and sessions. We have designed them around tracks. So we have craft and marketing and advertising, which are different. We have a health and wellness area, which is a little bit different.

We're going to be talking about mindset, how to stay healthy, how to have a sustainable career. There's lots of talks around that so that you have a more well-rounded and better and healthier space to write in and a longer career.

We talk about business and strategy. We talked about transmedia, which is all the different ways that storytellers can get their works out there.

So we'll talk about AI, we'll talk about audiobooks, we'll talk about video. We'll talk about, I don't know, launching stuff into the moon. Who knows what's coming next? Between now and November, there could be ten thousand new things.

Then Thursday night, we kick off our reader-centric focus. So we have Kevin Smith, who is an indie artist himself. He's written a book, but he's also a filmmaker. He's coming really to capture readers there. Then we kick off on Friday with RAVE, our book event where we've got all of the authors and readers that are coming to connect. We'll have panels for authors, we'll have giveaways.

I mean, it's so fun. I'm more excited about the education part than I am RAVE. RAVE, to me, is just like the big, “Oh, this is fun. Now I get to hang out with my friends.” Then we can stay through the weekend in Las Vegas and enjoy all that Vegas has to offer.

Joanna: I attended last year at the last 20Booksto50k conference, and as an introvert it is pretty hardcore, but I think it's so important for us to push ourselves out of our comfort zone.

Yes, you might just have to go back to your room and lie on the floor for a bit like I did sometimes to kind of de-people, but it's so valuable. You started off at the beginning talking about how much of your career and your business is based on meeting people at conferences.

Chelle: 100%.

Joanna: Where can people find you and everything you do, but also Author Nation, online?Chelle: Absolutely. So IndieAuthorMagazine.com is our main site with the magazine we publish every single month. It's a plethora of information that's well edited. We also have two apps on the App Store. We have an iOS app in the Apple Store and a Google Play app.

Then Indie Author Training is just kicking off. That's reimagined from our Author Tech Summit which we did, and we just said we can't do it quarterly, we have to do it all the time. So IndieAuthorTraining.com is where we have webinars, and product tools, and conversations, and groups where people can chat about tech.

Then Author Nation is AuthorNation.live. It's November 11th through the 15th at the Horseshoe in Las Vegas. So please come, it's going to be an amazing conference. I'm very excited about this conference, not just because I am seeing all of the talks take shape, but it's just going to be a little bit different in terms of setup.

So there's going to be lounge chairs where you can sit instead of just tables. There's going be more conversation pits, more quiet spaces. We've taken all the best and improved on it. It's going to be so great.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Chelle. That was great.

Chelle: Thank you so much, Joanna.

The post Using Tools To Automate Your Author Business with Chelle Honiker first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How can you build a creative, sustainable career as a ‘mid-list' indie author? How can you design a business that works for you and your books over the long term? T. Thorn Coyle explains more in this episode.

In the intro, BookVault bespoke printing options; Harper Collins partners with Eleven Labs for AI-narrated non-English audiobooks [Publishing Perspectives]; AI Publishing Formula Podcast; Brave New Bookshelf Podcast; “I’m not worried about AI, because I got my mojo working.” Stephen King;

Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

T. Thorn Coyle is the author of paranormal mystery, urban fantasy, alt history, epic fantasy, as well as nonfiction around magical practice. Their latest book is The Midlist Indie Author Mindset.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• What does it mean to be a mid-list author?
• How being weird can help you connect as more human
• Finding your sense of weird and letting it shine in your work
• Making marketing about connection and finding what works for you
• Marketing for Kickstarter in a short-term promotional window
• Tips for managing multiple Kickstarters per year
• Keeping readers engaged with your newsletter and social media
• Creating a tagline that portrays the message of your author business

You can find Thorn at ThornCoyle.com, and the Kickstarter for The Midlist Indie Author Mindset here.

Transcript of Interview with Thorn CoyleJoanna: T. Thorn Coyle is the author of paranormal mystery, urban fantasy, alt history, epic fantasy, as well as nonfiction around magical practice. Their latest book is The Midlist Indie Author Mindset. So welcome back to the show, Thorn.

Thorn: Thanks so much. It's great to be back.

Joanna: Yes, I know. I had a look, and it's been six years since you were last on the show.

Thorn: That's a long time, especially in the indie publishing world.

Joanna: Yes. I mean, we're old school, which probably means we met like a decade ago!

Thorn: Yes, probably.

Joanna: Which is so funny. So let's assume people haven't listened to our episode from six years ago, and also, things have moved on.

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.Thorn: Well, I was one of those people, you know, I've written since I was a tiny child, probably age five or six. I wrote poetry, I did journalism as a teenager, wrote for tattoo magazines in the 80s and 90s, and really wanted to write fiction.

I would practice writing fiction, and then I finally just gave up. I was the classic, I would labor over a short story for a year, and I would stall out three quarters into a novel.

I loved writing nonfiction also. That was easier for me, less of a challenge. So I got my first nonfiction major traditional publishing contract 20 years ago. I sold a book to Penguin, and I gave up fiction and focused on nonfiction, and traveling the world, and teaching for two decades.

Then fiction came back. Some characters showed up in my head one day, and I started writing fiction, and I started studying craft. Then I started seriously indie publishing, I decided I didn't want to go trad. My three first nonfiction books were all traditional published.

I didn't want to go traditional for fiction because I saw the struggles my friends were having with traditional publishing and my own struggles with traditional publishing. I started seriously indie publishing in 2017, and here we are today. I've got a big catalog now, and I just keep going.

Joanna: So what is a big catalog to you?

Thorn: I have probably, including short story collections, probably 30 books, which for me is a big catalog. I know for other people, that's a tiny catalog. It might even be more than 30 books now. I fail to keep track.

Joanna: I mean, it's also funny because you sounded slightly apologetic about 30 books, and I do this too. It's like, this is ridiculous because there are authors who write two books in their whole life!

Thorn: I know people like that. I certainly know a lot of traditional authors who only wrote a couple books. That's great, it's just a hard way to make a living.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. So let's get into the book, so The Midlist Indie Author Mindset. I feel like this word “midlist” probably means more in the traditional publishing world. So why don't we start with that.

What is the ‘mid-list,' and why use that concept? What does it mean?Thorn: The reason I latched on to the concept of midlist—and you're right, it does come from traditional publishing. So I'll give a little background.

In traditional publishing, especially in like the 70s, 80s, and 90s, midlist authors were the bread-and-butter authors. They were middle class. They weren't best sellers, but they put out books people enjoyed year after year after year. They were the backbone of a lot of publishing for a long time.

So the bestsellers financed the non-sellers, the poor sellers, but the midlist just kept going, writing books people enjoyed. That slowly faded away as traditional publishing changed. It became harder and harder to make a living as kind of a middle class, midlist author.

The other thing about midlist authors is they had a big catalog because they just kept publishing year after year, usually genre fiction of some sort or another. They built up a catalog that people enjoyed, that in traditional publishing is called a backlist. We still use that terminology, but it's not really accurate for indie publishing.

In traditional publishing, frontlist is a brand-new book that they push for three months, that's what that means. Backlist is everything else. So we can just call it our catalog because as indie authors, we can relaunch. We can do whatever we want with all those books. They're not going to go away.

So I wanted to bring forth this concept of midlist into the indie world because so many people say, well, if I'm not making multiple six figures or seven figures, I'm a failure.

I believe it's possible for a lot of people to find ways to make a decent middle class living as writers.It's a lot more attainable and sustainable than some of the tactics and techniques people use to grow to be multi-six, like high six-figure or seven-figure authors. It can feel discouraging, I think, to a lot of people when we see these success stories and think, well, I may as well win the lottery or get struck by lightning. That's how unattainable it feels.

I realized in my own life, I had to curtail some of my ambitions because of life circumstances. I realized what I really wanted was a slow, sustainable build and a long, sustainable career. If I can do it, I think a lot of people can do it.

Joanna: Yes, absolutely. The problem is the midlist is it's not a very sexy goal! It's not very catchy like, you know, six figure, seven figure.

As you say, it's more like the slow build, sustainable living, sustainable lifestyle, and things that actually give us a good life. Sometimes I feel like you have to be careful what you wish for. In the book, you talk a bit about your jet set lifestyle, you know, you used to travel a lot teaching. So what happened to that?

When did the romance disappear from that ‘jet set' lifestyle?Thorn: So it was around 12 years ago that I really stopped wanting to travel all the time. I was traveling all over the world constantly, like, sometimes twice a month I was on an airplane.

It was wonderful. I met amazing people, I saw amazing places, and I was getting paid to do it. Unbeknownst to me, my undiagnosed chronic illness was getting worse, so that was starting to happen.

Also, I was just burning out. I was burning out on having to be this public figure, even though it was in a small sphere. I was burning out on the travel. I'll never forget, one time I came back from a trip, I crawled into bed, and said, “I'm done,” and I still had six months to a year's worth of trips booked.

So I just had to get through that time and then recalibrate and figure out what to do. That's when I did my major pivot. It also coincided when those characters showed up, and I started studying fiction again.

So yes, I burned out really badly, which I know a lot of people do and need to make career change. So I realized I still had those ambitions, and I took some of my ambitions into the indie writing sphere early on before I realized that was not going to be sustainable.

There were things people were doing that were all about the fast build. They were all about the spikes, you know, the huge income right away. I was trying to do that and failing, and I had to reassess and say, okay, what can I actually do? So I slowly figured it out for myself.

Joanna: Yes, and what do we want to do as well. It's interesting that the characters came back at the point at which you said you're kind of done with that life. So you opened up space in your mind for that.

I talked about this years ago when I made a decision to opt out of my career. I still had five more years of that IT consulting career, but I opted out of the career ladder. So I did what I needed to do to make the money and to do a good job for my boss, but I knew I was leaving.

That opened up the potential for what then came next. I feel like a lot of people don't realize that you almost need to make the space, like for you, for the characters to come back.

Thorn: Yes, and in the book, I talk about having a possibility mindset. That's what you're talking about.

Making space for what is possible, is really important.It gets easy to just get on a hamster wheel and never just take a full breath and ponder, as you've said, what do I want? Not only what's right for me and what's sustainable or possible, but what does my heart want? What does my soul want? You know, what's interesting to me?

So I always try to invoke curiosity. I've invoked curiosity around writing fiction, but over the years, I've learned also to invoke curiosity about running a business.

That was my huge mindset shift.

When I decided to get curious about business instead of treating it like a loathsome, horrible task, it changed everything for me.Joanna: Well, let's talk about that for a minute because I do remember having a conversation with you. I think we might even have talked about this on our last discussion on the show.

You're a strong activist, you have very strong principles, and money and capitalism were just things that you kind of hated. So you were pushing away money. Tell us how you got over that and how you reconciled this?

Thorn: I still don't like shareholder capitalism and the effects it has on the world, I can say that. For me, what I want to do is connect with people. That's always been my task as a creative. That's also my love as a business person.

So I need to run a sustainable business, and take interest in it, and figure out ways to engage with it in ways that are going to help me connect with people. That's all my business is.

I run a publishing company that's about connection.So reframing that for myself, that it's not about who gets the most toys, it's about here's the world we live in, and what are my options for connecting with people and trying to make the world a more enjoyable, less horror-ridden place.

The other thing is, I'm always a proponent of culture change. One of the best ways to bring about culture change is capturing people's imaginations. So if I want to capture someone's imagination through my stories, I have to figure out a way to reach them with those stories, so I have to figure out how to run a business. So I think that's what helped me get curious.

Joanna: Yes, and I mean, to reach more readers, it's better to have a bigger engine in your business. I also remember you saying to me, “If I make a ton of money, I can always give it all away to causes that I care about.”

So that I think it's a really good reframe for people. It's to accept that if you make more money as an author, it's because you're selling more books, and you're reaching more people.

Thorn: Exactly, and people are excited about my books. People are excited about your books. People need fiction right now, and nonfiction too.

The world needs wonder. The world needs hope. If we can supply even a little bit of that for people, how awesome is that?Joanna: Yes, and escapism as well. As we record this, I just binge watched the 3 Body Problem on Netflix, and I hadn't read the book. As soon as the series finished, I was like, right, I'm buying the book.

I learned today that The Three-Body Problem trilogy and Silent Spring, Rachel Carson's book, which they use in the series and is in his book, went to number one on Amazon because everyone's buying these books. I just thought that was brilliant, because again, it's such a resonant story at this time in history.

Like you say, these stories have power, and they connect minds. It's so powerful. I feel like sometimes we almost degrade writing fiction, like, oh, we should write something “more important” in inverted commas.

Thorn: That's also the great divide between high literary fiction and what we call genre fiction. We think, oh, my cozy paranormal mysteries are not important. Well, actually, my cozy paranormal mysteries are my best sellers because people need that escapism.

People need some comfort, you know. So why isn't comfort important? Why isn't enjoyment important?I recently talked with author Meg Elison, and she really talks a lot about the importance of pleasure in life. I agree with her, we need pleasure. We need joy. Everything can't just be hard all the time because we won't make it through.

Joanna: Yes, absolutely. For me, going to bed with a book is still a big pleasure. Sometimes I'm just so tired, and I go to bed in the afternoon, and I'll read fiction. Other times I'll read nonfiction. I read your book on the plane coming back from 20 Books Seville. It's a great book.

I do want to come back to one point in the book. You say, “My readers love my work because I'm weird.” I talk about doubling down on being human, but I think it is easier said than done, especially in this world where there's a lot of advice around chasing tropes, or writing to market, or any of this.

How can authors find their own particular kind of weird and have the confidence to let it out into their work?Thorn: Well, first of all, what comes most naturally to you? That's the main thing.

We often make the mistake that what comes most naturally to us, and what we really love and feels easier for us, isn't important. We think it's too ordinary, but what's ordinary for us, is extraordinary for something else. It feels ordinary to us because it's just part of us.

When we allow that voice to come forward, people respond to it because they're like, “Oh, that's an authentic voice. You're not putting something on. You're actually connecting with me, and I'm connecting with these characters.”

So I'll give you an example. I had been writing my alt history and kind of more serious urban fantasy, and I was in the middle of writing my epic action-adventure trilogy, and I needed a break. I had got a concussion and a brain injury.

I started writing my cozy paranormal mysteries, which are just bonkers. I did a Kickstarter for them, and I was very nervous because I thought, wow, this is really different and people aren't going to like it.

People came out of the woodwork to back that Kickstarter. My first reader for the cozy mysteries said, “Well, you know, cozy readers tend to be more traditional. They're not going to be into the fact that you have bisexual characters and transgender characters and all this stuff.” I thought, you know what —

I'm just going to market this as cozy mysteries for freaks and geeks, because I like cozy mysteries, and I'm weird. Clearly, now I realize, oh, other people who are weird also want the comfort of cozy mysteries. They're not all traditional readers, you know.

So I was told very clearly, cozy readers are traditional. I said, I don't care, these are the books I want to write. Lo and behold, they found readers. It might take a little more time, which is why I talk about the slow build in the book. It might take more time, but you're going to find your readers.

Joanna: I do want to comment on this, because you're a super strong person, and you're very clear on your freaks and geeks side and your visual brand.

Let's just speak to the people who might not be that strong in their knowledge of what their weird is. So what about people who don't have that strong sense of “what is my weird?” How do we find that? How do we tap into that?

Thorn: Again, you mentioned earlier, making space. If we make space for ourselves and listen to our heart and what's most interesting to us, rather than listening to the clamoring voices trying to tell us what we should be doing, that's the first way through.

It's just to pause, go for a walk, meditate, ponder for a while, and think, what am I actually drawn to? Not what the marketers are telling me I should be drawn to. That's how to find ourselves and find our path forward, I think.

It just starts with listening and making space to listen.Joanna: Yes, and it is really hard. I mean, the world is super noisy. You could just spend your time endlessly scrolling whichever social media it is, or doom reading the news, or whatever, and then your brain is full of all those things that it thinks that it should be interested in. So where do you find it? I mean, maybe it is in the books you read when nobody's watching?

Thorn: Yes, yes. I think that's brilliant. What are your so-called guilty pleasures? Then put all that in your writing.

Joanna: I mean, it's interesting, because I mentioned the 3 Body Problem again. So I say I don't read sci-fi, because I'm like, I'm not into aliens. Then watching the 3 Body Problem, I don't know why I didn't realize this before, it's not about the aliens. It's about the humans.

Thorn: It always is.

Joanna: It always is. The thing is, I really like reading horror. People are like, oh, why do you like horror? And I'm like, well, it's not about the monsters, it's about the humans. It's all just exactly the same, isn't it?

Thorn: We're all just trying to make sense of the world in our own way. It doesn't matter what genre it comes through. I think the joy of writing is we get to figure out the world. We either get to try to figure out the world we live in already, or we try to figure out what world we want to live in.

Joanna: Yes, and write that into whatever alt-world you're doing. It is interesting. Well, let's come to the marketing because you said in the book—

“I figured out how I market, not how other people market.”That has a similar sense of finding your own path. So just talk about some of the things you tried but failed on, and what does work for you?

Thorn: Well, I'll go back to that word “connection.” Figuring out that for me marketing is about connection was helpful.

Actually, you helped me with this years ago. We were at some conference, and you said, “Oh, Thorn is great at content marketing.” I went, “I am?” I had no clue because I was just doing what I was doing. It was natural to me. Then I went, oh, okay, that's content marketing. I post what's interesting, it's still related to my world, and that's how I market.

The things that didn't work for me were early on. First of all, I didn't have a big enough catalog to do advertising for, but everyone said you have to do advertising. So I was taking the Amazon ads and Facebook ads classes, and they didn't work for me. Turns out all that advice at the time was really only useful for people in Kindle Unlimited, but they weren't telling me that.

The other thing that never worked for me were like, Facebook group takeovers, newsletter swaps, because I don't write the kind of urban fantasy these other people are writing. So doing a newsletter swap isn't going to really work because I don't know if your readers are going to really like my books.

Now, I eventually figured out that certain kinds of advertising works for that. Like if I did a free first in series and did the paid newsletters, I wasn't trying to target other people's readers, I was just targeting people who said, oh, we want urban fantasy, or we want cozy mystery.

I don't have to bring my entire catalog to these people. I'm bringing them one series. Then if they find the rest of my catalog, that's great.The other thing that didn't work for me was that spike marketing. Trying to do promo stacking and get the big spikes and hitlist and all that, it was never going to work for me. That was all feeding the beast. Even for the writers that was working for, I don't think it was a long-term strategy.

So I had to figure out my long-term strategy, which was, how do I connect with my readers? Well, I do that through my newsletter. I do that through how I use social media. I do that now through things like Kickstarter.

So, over the last eight years, I've built up enough goodwill with my readers that they are so happy to share my stuff now. It also means when I do any paid advertising, I'm strategic about it, and it works. I'm not just throwing spaghetti at a wall.

Joanna: Interesting. You said the spike marketing hasn't worked for you, but Kickstarter is a short-term promotional window. So how are you doing that?

What kind of marketing are you doing within the three weeks this Kickstarter will run?Thorn: That is a great point. So spike marketing for wide retailers didn't work for me. Spike marketing for direct sales does work for me. So I've built up all this goodwill through how I use my newsletter and how I connect on social media, so whenever I go to run a Kickstarter, people are like, “We are sharing your Kickstarter everywhere. We're so excited that you're doing this. We're backing you up just because we like your work.”

So I do market those, but I do it in the regular ways I do everything else. I use my social media platforms and send out notices in my newsletter. I don't do anything special for my Kickstarter. It all is organic for me.

Joanna: It just has a time limit. So you're basically just sending out some newsletters, and obviously, you've been doing some podcast interviews like this one.

Are you running any paid ads for your Kickstarter?Have you found them useful?

Thorn: I spend like $20 on each campaign.

Joanna: That doesn't count!

Thorn: So I don't I don't do paid marketing. Some people do. I don't, and my Kickstarter campaigns all do really well.

Joanna: So how many Kickstarter campaigns have you done now?

Thorn: This one will be my ninth.

Joanna: Okay. So what's the kind of tempo? Because obviously we're talking here about the life that people want to live and designing your business around that.

What's the tempo of your Kickstarters in a year? How do you manage the different releases?Thorn: I do three a year, and three years seems to work for me. I thought I was going to do four this year, and it was way too much. Partially because I ran a big-for-me Kickstarter campaign last year that brought in like twenty-five grand. Since I'm doing it all myself, it was big.

I had trouble with my printer, so it took a lot longer to fulfill than I wanted. So I'm like, okay, I need to take the fourth Kickstarter off my plate this year because everything just got backed up business-wise.

Three a year works for me because this is my full-time job. For people I know who it's their part-time job, they run one a year. It's a great way to make money for covers, pay for editors, and build a new audience.

This is the other thing I love about Kickstarter. About half of my backers come directly from Kickstarter, which is awesome. Then about half come from my world.

Joanna: Yes, from your audience. So when I do Spear of Destiny, it will be my first fiction Kickstarter. I've done two nonfiction. well memoir and then the writing nonfiction. I'm doing it under the same name.

This will be my first thriller, and I feel like I'm going to have to have really low expectations because I've spent the last 12 years training my fiction readers to buy eBooks on Amazon, basically. Do you feel like if you start with fiction, particularly where that's where a lot of our readers come from—

Does it take a while to retrain your readers to want other things?Thorn: No, my readers love Kickstarter. I mean, some of them are confused by it, especially some of my older readers, and I have to do a minor amount of hand holding. But, no.

If I do a regular book launch on wide retailers, maybe a couple people will share it, maybe some people will buy it if I don't do actual advertising. My Kickstarters, people know it's time limited. It's an event, and they're excited to participate, so it spreads.

My readers do my marketing for me. Then the Kickstarter algorithm kicks in, and it does my marketing for me. It's actually much easier for me than launching something into the void on Amazon or Apple.

Joanna: I'm quite excited to see how it goes.

I do want to ask you, because you've mentioned your chronic illness, brain injury, and you talk about health issues in your book. When we do a Kickstarter, you've got the Kickstarter timing. What happens if then something happens in your health that you just can't do it? Or like you said, things get backed up?

How are you managing your health issues with the ups and downs of being an author?Thorn: Well, it might seem strange to talk about health issues in a business book, but it felt important to me because everyone has something going on in their life. That is why I love this question.

I pad a lot of time into my fulfillment. I make this mistake all the time where I set out my year's goals when I'm feeling good, and then when I'm not feeling good, I have to deal with those goals, and I have to reassess them and pivot and rewrite my production schedule. I do it all the time.

Joanna: Yes, me too.

Thorn: With Kickstarter, I've learned to build in extra time for fulfillment. So if you think it's going to take two months to fulfill, tell people you'll fulfill in three to four months. If you think you're going to fulfill in four months, tell people you're going to fulfill in six months.

Just add in space, give yourself grace, and then if you fulfill early, that's awesome. With the campaign I just finished fulfilling, I just told people, “Hey, here's what's happening with the printer. I'm having these issues. We're working on it.”

I just kept in communication, and people were very kind and happy just to be communicated with. So I was about a month behind in fulfillment, which is not the end of the world.

Joanna: Yes, these are books at the end of the day.

Thorn: Yes, seriously. So just communicate with people. First, build in extra space and time, build in a buffer. Then communicate clearly. People are very happy to be supportive. Most people want to be kind.

Joanna: Yes, I agree. So just coming back to your newsletter because you talked there about communication, and earlier you talked about it as the fundamental aspect of your marketing.

What do you do in your newsletter? What do you send out to people?Because I feel like this is something that many authors struggle with.

Thorn: So, I used to barely use my newsletter. Coming out of traditional publishing, I never used a newsletter. I think that's changed now.

I send out a weekly missive about what I'm thinking about. I post a photo I take on one of my walks and just whatever thoughts I have. Then at the end of this 300-word missive, I do a line break and a small ad of, you know, “Here's my latest podcast I'm on,” or “Here's this book that is on sale or has just launched,” or “Here's my Kickstarter.”

So people come back week after week, and they know what they're going to get from me is just some thoughts from Thorn. Enough people like that, that some people actually pay me for it even though it's a free newsletter.

Joanna: That's on Substack?

Thorn: I was on Substack for three years. I just recently switched to Beehiiv.

Joanna: Because of the Nazis?!

Thorn: Yes, because of the Nazis. I mean, it's unfortunate that Substack decided to make those choices. I think Substack is still a better platform, but Beehiiv is getting there rapidly. So I have great hope.

So that's another thing I changed. I used to try to be on ConvertKit and do all the automated sequences that everyone said were best practices for newsletters. Those work for a lot of people—oh, segment your email list, do these sequences.

That marketing never worked for me, ever. So it made putting out my newsletter a chore. I said, I'm going to stop paying for this, I'm going to go to this free service, and I'm going to strip it down and say, here's what I'm doing. Every week, I'm going to send out thoughts with a tiny ad.

That was a huge shift for me. I started that just over three years ago, and people responded. People love the newsletter, people share the newsletter on social media, people reply, people send me long, thoughtful comments. So, again, it was figuring out how marketing worked for me.

Joanna: That's interesting, because I do have two newsletter lists. Actually, when you were talking there, I realized that's what I do on this show. My introduction includes the things I'm thinking about.

Many people are still listening to your interview, but some people did just come for the introduction. So that's actually exactly what you just said. You're doing it in writing, I'm doing it with talking.

Thorn: Yes, and I just let it be simple. It's like, okay, here's 300 words. I can write that in 15-20 minutes. Here's a photo. It works for me, and it works for my readers.

Joanna: It's just being human. It's a connection, like you said. I think this is the point we talked about earlier, everyone's quite smart these days around seeing through when things are a gimmick or they're not real. I still think that being human and the human connection is important.

So, let's come to social media. Again, I think we used to exchange things on Twitter when it was Twitter. A lot of people have moved on from some platforms.

I know you're a super ethical person, so what are you doing with social media now?Thorn: Well, first of all, we just all have to figure it out. We live in this world, and I am not judging people who are on various platforms.

Losing Twitter was a great loss. Twitter was actually my favorite platform. I've tried to get off of Facebook ever since I've been on it, but people won't leave Facebook. Maybe they will eventually, but that has not been my experience.

Joanna: When we all die. When the old people die.

Thorn: Yes, when all the old people die. So, very simply, I only use my public Facebook page. I don't use my private page, except to track a few author groups. I do one post, same post, Facebook and Instagram, every morning. Usually it's a photo and a thought.

I'm on Mastodon, which strangely enough, Mastodon has no algorithm. It is my best place to get marketing traction because people know I'm showing up, making posts, even if it's just one simple post a day.

Then when I post something marketing-related, it gets shared. I get more shares on Mastodon than anywhere else, even though it has no algorithm. Then I'm on Bluesky, which frankly, is useless to me.

Joanna: I did try and get on Threads, and it went toxic so fast.

Thorn: Threads is horrific. The comments. I'm like, oh, my gosh, the comments on Threads are awful.

Joanna: It's like all the toxicity from Twitter ended up on Threads.

Thorn: Yes, it did. It did.

My social media strategy is very simple. I do one simple post a day. Then I try to remember to occasionally do a marketing post. Then when I'm running a Kickstarter, though, I do a more marketing-related post pretty much every day during my Kickstarter.

Since I'm not doing that constantly, people seem supportive of it. They're not always getting bombarded by “buy my book” from me. So they're really happy to support when I'm running a Kickstarter. They're really happy to do things like share my newsletter when I post my newsletter on social media, things like that.

Joanna: Again, you bring in the things you care about, and sometimes that is about protests, or art, or tattoos, or gender issues. I mean, you do just share quite all over the place, I think.

Thorn: I do. I try to be uplifting as much as possible. If I'm posting about something difficult, I always try to have a call to action that people can actually do. I'm not just on there complaining.

My rule for public discourse is I try to be signal and not noise. There's too much noise out there. So what is my signal that I'm trying to put out to reach people?

Yes, my presence can feel all over the map, and I have felt that about myself. Like, you know, buy my books, but I'm also talking about magic, but here's a flower that I saw on my walk, then here is this social justice thing that's happening. But truly, that's all me, and that is all in my books, too.

Joanna: That's the point I was trying to make. I didn't mean you were all over the place. I meant— You talk about all the things that go into your books.

Like you are political, and your books are political. So if people don't want to do politics then, you know, they're not your person, but people who love your politics will love your books. So I think that's what I was trying to get at. You are very, I hate the word authentic, but you are pretty authentic.

Thorn: I can't not be, which is why I just had to figure it out for myself. What's interesting to me is at this point in the indie author world, I'm hearing this from a lot more people.

A lot of people right now are reassessing how they've been marketing, and what they've been writing, and what they want their careers to look like.I think as a whole in the indie author world, we're taking a step back right now and saying, how do we want to move forward? For me, it always just had to be, be myself.

When I first started publishing fiction, everyone said you need to do it under a pen name because you're going to pollute your Amazon also-boughts. I'm like, I don't care. I have spent decades building up goodwill with people with my name. I'm just going to write fiction under this name.

Well, lo and behold, Amazon also-boughts quickly went away. The Amazon algorithm changes every six months to a year.

Joanna: I think it changes every week.

Thorn: Probably. So people have figured out, oh, we can't just chase the algorithm anymore. It doesn't work long term.

So, I came up with a tagline for my author business, and it's, “Magic is real, and justice is worth fighting for.” So people know that's what they're going to get from me, no matter what I'm writing or talking about. A sense of magic and a sense of justice.

Joanna: A lot of people want a tagline. I have tried, and I think I've even asked you about this before as well. I still don't have a tagline. So I mean—

Did it take you a long time to get to that tagline, or has it always been very clear for you?Thorn: It took me a little while, but it didn't take me that long. I just, again, paused and assessed and said, what do I think my through line is? What are the strongest threads in my work? What are the strongest threads I want to put out in the world? That's where it came from.

So, for you, I think you're really interested in human emotion. I think you're obviously interested in the shadow. You're interested in what makes us tick.

I think that also includes your author stuff. Your author books, over time, I think have grown to include more and more of your interest in human psychology and philosophy.

Joanna: Maybe that's part of it. You know, we're talking as two people who've been doing this a while now, and I feel like that's another thing.

Also around your book and talking about the slow growth, look, some of this stuff takes time. None of this appears overnight. I get people sometimes that are trying to figure all this out, and they haven't even finished their first book yet.

Thorn: Yes. Yes.

Joanna: So patience, I guess.

Thorn: Patience, and patience is hard. Every new writer wants to be an overnight success. The thing I'll tell you is I've seen people who have been overnight successes and that puts a lot of pressure on the work.

I think it makes it harder to build a long-term career for most people. You know, you start thinking, what if my next book isn't as good? What if people don't like it? Instead of just giving yourself the freedom.

Frankly, no one knowing who you are is a huge boon to your creativity because you can do whatever you want and find your voice over time and slowly build an audience over time.

Kristine Kathryn Rusch says we build our career one reader at a time. I think doubling down on that is helpful. I don't have to reach 100,000 people or even 1000 people. I want to reach one person. That's where it starts.

Joanna: Absolutely. Now there are loads of great tips and things in the book. It's really meaty. It's got lots in it.

Tell people about the Kickstarter, where they can find it, and when it's running.Thorn: So the Kickstarter launches April 16, and it will run through the first part of May. I will have some checklists for midlist mindset changes. I will have some coaching options for people who really want to say, “Hey, how do I shift my mindset around this stuff? I'm struggling with this area of my writer business.”

So it's not going to be coaching around like specifics on marketing, it's all going to be mindset coaching. Then of course, I'll have the eBooks and print books and maybe some other surprises.

Joanna: Fantastic.

Where else can people find you online?Thorn: ThornCoyle.com.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Thorn. That was great.

Thorn: Thanks again for having me back on the show.

The post The Midlist Indie Author With T. Thorn Coyle first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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What mindset shift do you need if you want to sell direct? How can you use Meta and AI tools to amplify your marketing? Matt Holmes gives his tips as well as insights from running my ads for my store, JFPennBooks.com.

In the intro, how to sell more books at live events [BookBub]; Future of publishing and LBF, includes video of our live panel [Orna Ross on SelfPublishingAdvice]; 5 Trends we learned at the Future of Publishing [Kickstart Your Book Sales]; Author business and Author Nation [Wish I'd Known Then]; Amazon de-lists my Companion workbooks, but you can buy the spiral-bound versions and bundles on my store, CreativePennBooks.com.

Plus, Nvidia's Earth2 digital twin development platform for climate science; Moonshots and Mindsets Podcast with Peter Diamandis; Sam Altman on GPT-5 [Lex Fridman] ; Using Claude for Shopify mass upload template [M.C.A. Hogarth]; Plus, join me and Joseph Michael for our AI webinar, 4 April, 8pm UK — register here to join us live or get the replay.

Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna

Matthew J. Holmes is a book marketing and direct sales specialist and the business partner of fantasy author, Lori Holmes. Matt has a great newsletter and courses for authors around Facebook ads and direct sales.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• A mindset shift when switching from KU to direct sales
• Control of your cash flow and customer base with direct sales
• Email marketing strategies
• AI automatic targeting vs. manual targetting
• Tools to create better ads for targeting your ideal reader
• Matthew's ad testing methodology
• The influx of print sales when selling direct and how to source them
• The Direct Sales Blueprint for Authors and Facebook ad courses

You can find Matt at MatthewJHolmes.com.

Transcript of Interview with Matthew J. HolmesJoanna: Matthew J. Holmes is a book marketing and direct sales specialist and the business partner of fantasy author, Lori Holmes. Matt has a great newsletter and courses for authors around Facebook ads and direct sales. Welcome to the show, Matt.

Matthew: Hi, Jo. Thank you so much for having me on the show. It's a pleasure to be here.

Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. First up, just—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into the self-publishing and book marketing space.Matthew: Sure. So actually, Jo, it's probably your fault, really. We actually found you, I think it was about 2016 – 2018, somewhere around there.

Lori, who as you said, is an author. She had a publishing deal with a publisher that fell through. Then we were deciding, should we go and find another publisher or should we try this self-publishing thing we thought about?

We did lots of Googling and came across your blog and your podcast and your YouTube videos. It was through that, that we decided, okay, let's try the self-publishing route. So that's the route we went because all of the content you were putting out. So it's funny to really come full circle and be on your podcast now.

So that sort of started off the self-publishing thing with Lori's book. She originally launched it in 2020, but that was after a rebrand before with the publishers, and she expanded that first book.

We launched in April 2020, and that is about the time when COVID hit. From about 2010, up to COVID, I ran a video production company. Before that, I worked at the BBC.

When COVID hit, my video production company just crashed and burned because you obviously couldn't go out and film people. I couldn't be around people, you had to be in bubbles and all that kind of thing. So that whole business just disappeared overnight, pretty much.

We had our first twin boys coming about two months later, and we suddenly found ourselves in this position where we have no income apart from the government furlough. That saw us through the first few months of COVID, really.

So I had a lot of time on my hands, and I like to keep busy. So I don't like to do nothing. So I launched myself into learning Facebook ads to advertise Lori's books.

That's really how I got started with it all. I found I really enjoyed the Facebook ads dashboard, creating ads and all that kind of stuff, and all that the geeky stuff around ads. So I just launched myself into advertising Lori's books.

It was just book one to begin with in April, and then book two came out in May. So a month later, because it was already written. Then we launched like a side novel, which again, was already written. I think it was June or July of that year, 2020.

Since then, Lori's launched one book a year. So she's got a total now of six books published. It's just been one book a year, really. So that's our cadence. She's a very slow writer, but that's just the way she works, and it works for her.

So over time, we've just gradually increased the budgets, and we've obviously increased earnings as well. We're up to about $17,000 – $18,000 a month in royalties, with about 2x return on ad spend, about 2.5x, something like that. So we're spending sort of $7,000 to $8,000 a month on Facebook ads.

Then back in 2023, we started dabbling a bit in the direct sales side of things. We eventually pulled Lori's books out of KU in about October of 2023, and then went all in on the direct sales.

Even now, we are still selling on Amazon, and we're doing pretty well on Amazon. Just most of our budget now is going into the direct sales.

Joanna: I love this. So there's a few things. One, Lori is not a slow writer, she is a normal writer, writing one book a year. People have to remember this, like the indie author rapid release thing, that is not normal!

Also, she writes pretty hefty books, doesn't she? Like they're fantasy books, right?What's the word count on her books?

Matthew: The first ones about 80,000, and then the other ones are up to about 150,000, something like that. Somewhere between 120,000 and 150,000. But there's a lot of background research that goes into them.

Joanna: Yes, I just wanted to point out that Lori has six books, and they are good size books. I think this is so important because so many people think you can only be successful if you have like— well, the 20 books to 50k is kind of the model that has been talked about, but of course, you don't need to have that many books. That model I think is the old kind of KU model.

What I love, and why you're here, is because you teach the newer model of using direct sales, but also using Meta ads, which we're going to come to. Thanks for sharing the numbers by the way, I think that's very generous of you to actually say numbers.

So Lori's books were in KU, and you pulled them out towards the end of last year, as you mentioned. For people listening, KU is just for eBooks. You were just doing print on the direct sales. Tell us—

How does the mindset have to shift between KU and selling direct?Matthew: It's quite a big shift. It took us a while to work on, and I guess some days we still are whenever we have a slow day on the store.

With direct sales, you really are responsible for every single sale that comes in. Whether that's through ads, whether that's through email marketing, whether that's through any organic social media, you're responsible for all of it.

Whereas with Amazon, you have to get your books to a certain point in the store, and then Amazon can take over with the organic sales based on the Amazon bestseller rank.

You have to shift away from relying on Amazon to do all the selling for you, to you taking 100% responsibility for every sale. That's probably the biggest shift we found.

It's a pretty daunting prospect to step away from KU. Particularly, Lori, she just has the one series. Well, okay, there's book one in the new series, but that's not doing much at the minute because it's not complete series.

It's just that all her books were in one series, and they were all in KU, and we pulled all of them out at once.

About 50% of Lori's royalties were from KU, so it was a big drop. So we had to make that work on a direct sales basis to get it to almost replace that income.

Joanna: Why did you do it?

People are like, why did you do it then?

Matthew:

Why did we do it? To have more control and have more ownership, really, of the people that are purchasing the books. To have a more direct channel of communication to every reader, to be able to nurture the relationship with every reader a lot more than we can with the likes of Amazon.

Also, we can earn a lot more with the store in terms of the royalties we get because we don't have the Amazon's cut to pay. So we can earn a lot more for every sale that we generate through the store. They were the biggest reasons, really.

Joanna: Just on the money, so you mentioned the amount that you spend on Facebook ads. The other thing is cashflow, right, because if you send traffic to Amazon, you're not getting paid for that for 60 days. Whereas with selling direct, you can get paid the same day or within 24 to 48 hours.

Matthew: Yes, that's the other big thing, actually. We've set it to every week now. So you can choose your cadence of how often you're paid, so we set it every week.

Yes, in terms of cash flow and supporting the ads, yes, you haven't got to wait. If you have a big month, you haven't got to wait two months to get that income into your bank account to pay for the ads if you want to start scaling up. So you can make decisions much more quickly because you have the cash flow to support it.

Joanna: Also, talk about the difference between spending money on ads to your store and getting customer data versus sending traffic to Amazon.

In terms of email marketing, how much can you sell in different ways?It's not all ads, is it?

Matthew: No, very much not. The email is a big thing because you can send traffic to your store, and okay, people may not buy straightaway there and then, but they may sign up to your email list through whatever you're offering. Whether it's a sample chapter, or sample chapters, a free book, or maybe it's a discount code.

They may sign up for that, but not make a decision to buy straightaway. But you can have a flow of emails, a sequence of emails, that are automatically sent to these people over a certain timeframe. Those can bring them back to your store to make a decision further down the line. So that's the big thing.

Okay, the ads. Books are a fairly impulse buy, I guess, because they're relatively cheap compared to other products online. You also have to think about people have got to be spending, with Lori's books, about 10, 12, 14 hours to read them. So that's a big-time investment there.

So it's not just, oh, it's a three pound or $3 thing to buy. It's the time element as well, because that's obviously our biggest, most valuable asset is time. We can always make more money, we can't make more time.

So we have to position the value of buying this book in the first place that it's going to be worth their time, not just their money. We can do that over email.

If we send people to Amazon and they decide not to buy, okay, Amazon may email them a day or so later and remind them of the book. That can generate some good sales for you, without a doubt.

But you didn't have control over that. You can't build that personal connection with every reader like you can when you're selling direct.

Joanna: Another big difference is we have—I say we, I mean I, and many of us—have spent many years get building our email list through freebies. Here's a free book in exchange for signing up for the email.

With selling direct, you're actually getting emails of buyers, which is a complete shift in mindset. So it changes things because these are people who have already paid for a book.

The other thing that's different with the way you're now doing things, and can do, is conversion ads versus the pay-per-click ads.

Can you explain the difference of conversion ads, and why selling direct enables us to use this in a different way?Matthew: Sure. So this is a big topic, but I'll try to condense it down. So when we're sending traffic from Facebook or Meta ads to Amazon, we have to use something called the traffic objective.

This is just where Facebook is optimizing to get the most number of clicks on your ads for the lowest possible cost. So once someone clicks on an ad and leaves Facebook and goes to Amazon, Facebook or Meta, they have no idea what's happening after the click.

So you can get a lot of clicks over to Amazon, and we can track the conversions to an extent with Amazon attribution. But when we start sending people from our Meta ads to our store, our direct sales store, we use something called the sales objective.

What that allows us to do, is once we have installed the Facebook pixel and the conversion API on our store, which is a piece of code you put on your store to allow your store to speak to Meta and Facebook —

Meta can then optimize your ads to show them to people who have an intent to make a purchase.This is really powerful, because it's not just optimizing for clicks anymore to get the cheapest possible clicks, it's trying to get you purchases of your products, in our case, our books.

So it can find people that have a good history and behavioral signs of actually making purchases online and making purchases that are similar to what you are selling. So that's probably the biggest difference.

These ads are slightly bit more expensive, but they're not massively. When we're sending traffic from our ads to Amazon, they're probably 10 – 15 pence a click, whereas to our store, they're perhaps 35 – 40 pence, something like that.

So okay, it's a little bit more expensive, but in terms of the conversions we get, it's converting much better with our store than it was on Amazon. That's with the data we got through Amazon attribution to track the sales and the page-read that were coming from the ads.

So when you use a sales objective, it allows Facebook to just optimize for a more valuable interaction with whatever you're selling. We found it to be a much better way to actually generate sales on our store is through the sales objective, rather than the traffic objective.

I have tested the traffic objective to direct sales, and it generated zero sales because there was no intent behind the people clicking on the ad. All they have shown a history of is clicking on ads.

So we want to find people that have a history of making purchases, rather than just clicking on ads. So yes, it's a much better objective really to use when you're selling direct.

Joanna: Obviously, this is an audio podcast, so we're not showing you all this, but you have a very useful newsletter, and you have very reasonably priced courses. So people can go find out more about that. We're not going to get too much into technical detail.

One of the things that I really like about the way you do things, too, is you know, everyone listening knows, I'm AI positive. Every week right now, the AI systems are getting better and better and better.

Some people will find that scary, for sure. Scary on the one hand, but on the other hand —

AI is useful in terms of helping us with marketing. It is one of the things we should all be leaning on because most authors want to write, they don't want to market.So tell people how you're using Meta's AI targeting instead of what we've been talking about for years as authors, which is doing all this manual targeting. So I guess auto targeting versus manual targeting.

Matthew: So I used to do the detailed targeting, and quite intensely. At the end of 2022, our Facebook ads completely crashed and burned, and I panicked for a bit.

I did a lot of testing, and what I ended up doing was doing zero targeting, so something called broad targeting or unrestricted targeting.

So typically what you would do historically, you would say, “I want to show my ads to people who have an interest in crime books,” for example, or “Stephen King.” And also, “I want to make sure I only show it to people who have an interest in Amazon Kindle,” or something like that.

We have to really narrow down the audience. It worked for a bit and then it would just sort of die off.

Joanna: There weren't any people left in that bucket, for example.

Matthew: That's right. Exactly. What I learned through going through this process of our ads not working and trying to get them working again, was that the detailed targeting doesn't do the targeting of your ads. It's the ad creative itself that creates the audience that does the targeting for you.

So that was a big sort of shift for me, in that, okay, I needed to —

Get out of Facebook's way and just create ads that resonate with our ideal readers and let Facebook find those readers for me.So, now I didn't do any detail targeting at all. All I do is age, gender, and location. Even then, I keep it pretty broad. So I'll say United States, male and female, 18 to 65, or 35 to 65+, something like that. That's all I'll do for the targeting.

Then on the ad side of things, the ad creative, I'm just creating ads that speak to our ideal reader. They resonate with the ideal reader, they position the books to our ideal readers, and then I just let Facebook get on with it and find the people that we want to show these ads to.

So it's a lot easier, it's a lot simpler to manage, because I had spreadsheets testing lots of different audiences and how they performed, and it was pretty complex. ‘

So now I just get out of Facebook's way or Meta's way, and just let the algorithm, the machine learning the AI, do all of that for me. So it's a much simpler way to run ads now.

Joanna: Yes, so everyone listening who is still listening, who hasn't been like, oh, no, ads. This is very, very exciting. In fact, I heard an interview with Mark Zuckerberg, who basically said, look, we want to be able to do all this for you.

Of course, image generation is becoming better and better in terms of AI-generated. So let's talk about that because when we started talking like six months ago, I kind of showed you how to use some of these AI tools for images.

So I know you've been playing with that. So talk about how you are—because you mentioned there, ads that speak to an ideal reader and that the ad creative is so important. How do people do that?

How might they use some tools to help them?Matthew: Yes, so you, Jo, introduced me to a tool called Midjourney, which has been a game changer for me. I use it every week.

Joanna: It's so much fun, right?

Matthew: It is. I could spend hours in there. The other tool I use is called Claude. This is similar to ChatGPT, but I find it a lot better. I get a lot more creative output from Claude than ChatGPT.

I use those tools in conjunction with each other, which is something you taught me as well, which was using Claude to create prompts that we can use in Midjourney to create the images.

So Claude is like a text-based AI tool. And Midjourney is more of an image-based AI tool that uses text to create the images. So you put in what you want to create in terms of an image, what you want the image to look like, what you want in the image.

It will create some images for you that you can then go ahead and tweak and refine to what you want it to be. Is that a good way? You're much better at the AI stuff than me, Jo. So is that a good explanation? How would you describe it?

Joanna: Yes, I mean, technically, that's a way of doing it. You can either go to claude.ai or use poe.com if your country doesn't have direct access to Claude. I also think ChatGPT with DALL-E has got a lot better.

So just coming back to it, fair enough, we can create images with Midjourney.

How do you know which ads will speak to that ideal reader?Like you have a testing process, don't you? You might create 10 images, but you're not just throwing them all and leaving them all running?

Matthew: No, no. I'm quite methodical about what I'm testing. Once I figure out something that works, then I'll try and refine that and create variations off that to try and improve it.

In terms of images that speak to your ideal readers, what I found initially worked well was just the sort of background image of a book cover works well.

Once I've started using these AI tools, I've taken scenes out of the book, and pop that into Claude, the AI tool, and asked Claude to create prompts I can use in Midjourney to create images around that particular scene.

These are scenes that are going to be quite prominent in the book. So if you write a fantasy book, it could be something like dragons or some sort of magical thing going on. If you write action-type books, then you can have people jumping off cliffs or running across rooftops, that sort of thing.

Just think of little things like that that just speak to the genre that you write in. That's the sort of way I've been doing it, really.

Then on top of that, what I find works really well, and it's always worked really well, from the beginning to even now, it's just using little review quotes, little snippets from readers who have left a review on your books on Amazon or on your store or another retailer, that just speak to your ideal reader.

So perhaps in the review they mentioned a trope, or they mentioned, “Best fantasy series I've ever read,” or, “Best historical fantasy series I've ever read,” or, “Best crime book,” or, “I fell in love with the characters in this fantasy book.”

Something that mentions the genre that you write in, that really helps with the AI side of things to find the right audience in terms of Meta's AI. Also, it helps for once Meta's actually created the audience and found the audience, it's going to speak to particular segments of that audience it's found as well. So that's the way I've been using it, really.

Joanna: Then as you said, you test things in a particular way. I think your testing methodology is easier to understand than some people's, but it's your methodology. So people can find that on your website. We will talk about this in a minute, in terms of the course.

I did want to ask you—okay, so just to be clear for everyone, you have been doing my ads for JFPennBooks.com for almost six months.

Matthew: Probably is about six months now.

Joanna: Yes, 5 – 6 months at this point. Obviously, I wanted you to do my ads for reasons of — selling books.

What I love is that every single day, I'm selling more fiction now than I have sold in a really long time. That is very exciting for me.In terms of what we are selling most of, it's the eBook box set of my first three books in the ARKANE series. That's Stone of Fire, Crypt of Bone, and Ark of Blood, three full-length thrillers.

There's a special deal for the bundle. That's another thing with direct sales, you can do these bundles.

But we have upsells, so quite a lot of people end up buying the 12-book eBook bundle, and quite a lot of people also will buy the print books, and even the 12 print books.

I'm like, seriously, from one advert on Facebook, someone is buying 12 print books?

It's something I think that people don't realize if they've been advertising into KU.

The KU audience is not the same audience as the people who will buy 12 print books (from an author they have never heard of.) So I guess—From the data that you have gleaned from my website, what are some of the things that you've learned?

Matthew: Yes, so we've tested quite a bit with your books. We've tested various different individual books, we've tested different box sets, we've tested paperbacks. I think that the biggest thing, really, is when you've got such a big collection of books like you have, Jo, it can be very tempting to advertise everything.

What we've really learned through this process was, okay, none of these other books—I'm not saying they're bad books at all, nothing like that—but what I'm saying is that —

The ads are really working for one particular box set, one particular series, and that's where we need to focus the budget.It doesn't mean the other books aren't going to sell or nobody wants to read them, but if we can get people into your ecosystem through one series, then we can use the email marketing to introduce them to other series in your catalog that they'll enjoy.

So we tested various different books and eBooks and bundles and paperbacks. We landed on this box set that just kept performing again, and again, and again. It was this three-book bundle, the ARKANE bundle, and the first few books in that series.

It had a good deal on it and it had the upsell, which obviously works. Rather than just forcing money into advertising books that weren't selling through the Facebook ads, we just doubled down on that hero product, so to speak. That box set, that bundle were clearly what was working.

So there's no point spreading the budget across other books that weren't really working well, when we could just put more budget into this box set that is working.

Once they're into your system, into your ecosystem, into your world, then they can start getting introduced to the other books in your catalogue through the email.Once you've got that first customer in and they're on your email list, you don't have to pay to acquire them again. You don't have to pay through the ads to acquire them again for a second time because they're already in your system. You can just use the email to introduce them to these other books.

So it's obviously easier to sell another book, or another box set, or another bundle, to someone who's already experienced your work in the first place. They're not coming to you cold to these other books in your catalog. So it's a much warmer sort of introduction to these other books that you have for sale.

They've obviously got a good sense of what your work is like, they enjoy your work, and they want to read more of your work. The email marketing will help do that in a very effective way.

Joanna: Yes, my email list is growing so much faster than it did do for a long time. That is really interesting.

The other thing is, I kind of think of the Meta algorithm now as a little engine that's learning who markets those books for me. Again, when you start doing this, as with anything, whether you're sending traffic to Amazon or anything, you have to allow a period of time for it to adjust.

It's going to put your ad up in front of a load of people, and a lot of them won't click at all, some might click and not convert, and then this is learning.

It feels like the snowball does get bigger and bigger, even though we've kept the spend pretty similar. We haven't changed the spend, but I feel like some mornings I wake up and there's just all these sales. It's like, what just happened?

Okay, so let's just talk about the downside. So we use the AI images, I don't know if you've seen this because I look at the comments, but—

People have been saying, “Oh, you've got AI images. Does that mean your books are AI?”Do you get that with Lori's?

Matthew: We haven't yet, actually. No. That's actually interesting to hear that. No, we've never had anything like that on Lori's ads.

Joanna: I've started to get a few, but it is interesting. Some of them I delete because they're just offensive, but some of them I'll comment back and say, “I wrote this a decade ago. These are the first books in a 13-book series. So no, they're not by AI.”

Some of them I'll just joke and say, “Yes, I want Gal Gadot to play Morgan Sierra,” or whatever. So that's interesting. I think the print sales are interesting because I feel like with Amazon, getting print fiction sales is actually a lot harder than it seems to be.

Matthew: We're selling a lot more direct with Lori's store than we ever did on Amazon. We're also selling more bundles, which is $70 for five books on the store. We're selling more of those than individual books on Amazon.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. And just so people know—you're using Bookvault as well, aren't you?

Matthew: Yes, we are.

Joanna: So we get a lot more profit selling print books when we sell direct. I mean, it's crazy.

I think the other thing is indies are so used to the very little money you make on print on Amazon compared to the amount you can make on print when you're using Bookvault through Shopify or one of their other integrations.

Suddenly, print becomes a much more important part of the business.Matthew: It does very much. Also, it's going to depend a bit on your audience and who you write for. A lot of Lori's audience, for example, are 60+. Not all of them, but a lot of them, like to have physical books in their hand.

Whereas there'll be some genres that attract a much younger audience, and they will devour books on their Kindle or their e-reader of choice, much more than buying a print book.

They want instant access to it. They want to read five or ten books a week, which they can't do when you're waiting for print books to be printed and delivered.

Joanna: No, exactly. It's a totally different audience. They're also, presumably, not so price sensitive, because as you say, people are dropping like $90 on 12 books from an author they've never heard of.

Matthew: Yes, exactly.

Joanna: I'm like, how did that happen? Well, I say that, and then I'll spend that much on some cat toy I see on Instagram. Then that, like you say, becomes an impulse purchase.

I feel like sometimes we forget that people who love books will just buy books on impulse, you know. We go to a bookstore and do that, right? So yes, I think that's different.

I guess one of the other things as we think about the way AI is developing, is what else do you think is going to get better and get easier for us?

As AI is developing, what else will we be able to outsource? What else are you looking at or investigating?Matthew: The other thing we're using AI for at the moment is writing the actual copy of the ads themselves. So I'm not using the copy straight from AI as it is, I am editing and tweaking quite a bit.

For example, like the headlines in the ads and the primary text in the ads, that's something we're using AI just to help us create some different options for our ad copy.

I'm also using it to track different desires and different segments of readers, and I'm using something like Claude to do that for me, to write copy for a particular market awareness or a particular market sophistication. That's something I'm doing a lot with at the moment.

Also inside of Meta when you're creating your ads, if you put in some primary text, they will have some AI-generated primary text that you could use as well. I haven't used them yet, but they look pretty good.

You put in a piece of primary text and it will give you some other options that its AI engine has written for you based on that piece of primary text. You can then use that or you can tweak and then add it into your ad as well.

Also, video is becoming pretty big now. So it was recently, you will know more about this than me, Jo, but was it—

Joanna: Sora.

Matthew: Sora, wasn't it? Yes. So that's like a text-to-video tool, I believe. I haven't looked into it yet, but that's something that I think will be very powerful. I've been looking at all the examples I've seen on X about it and there's lots of amazing possibilities you can do with that.

So I mean, I think there really is no limit apart from your imagination with these AI tools of what is actually possible. I think it's just going to get better and better, but at the moment, that's what we're really using it for.

Joanna: I totally agree. That's why I wanted you to come on, is to really encourage people. If you're like me, and sort of just didn't want to get involved at all with ads, there's just more and more opportunities for AI to do some of this marketing.

So this isn't about Facebook, but in 2023, I was paying someone to manage my Amazon ads. I only do them for nonfiction now, but I have them running just the auto ads. So there might come a point where that's what we're able to do on Meta and as well.

You don't do this as a service, but what you do is teach people how to do it themselves.

Tell us about your new course, The Direct Sales Blueprint for Authors, and also a bit about your Facebook ads stuff.Just tell people a bit more about it so they might know if they're interested.

Matthew: Yes, sure. Thank you. So the Facebook ads course, which is the one that's been around for the longest now, that is really just sharing my strategy on Facebook ads.

We dive into the basics of setting up your Facebook ads account, and then moving into creating ads that stop the scroll and ads that really speak to your ideal readers.

There's going to be a new module coming in the next few months. I'm going to be diving into my research process of how I actually create ads and really understanding the reader. It'll include all my different tools and strategies for identifying what readers are looking for in a book and particular types of book that you're advertising.

So I'm really going through that now. I have a Facebook ads coach I work with that really helps me understand all this in a lot more detail and really understand the market awareness and market sophistication. So that's been really beneficial. It's really helping me craft better ads.

So then it walks through the actual setting up of the ads themselves in the Facebook ads dashboard, and creating the campaigns and the ad sets and the ads, and then also what to look for when you're deciding is this a good ad or is this a bad ad.

It helps in making much more informed and confident decisions in which ad you keep running, which ones you turn off, which ones you make iterations of, which ones do you make variations of, and then also how to scale up your ads when you're in a position to do so.

It helps with what metrics to look for to know when it's time to scale up, and how to track everything so you have all the numbers that you need to make those decisions.

There's quite a few authors that are obviously still selling on Amazon and using their ads to drive traffic to sell the books on Amazon, but there's also quite a few authors now that are selling direct and want to know more about how to use Facebook ads or Meta ads to sell direct on their own stores.

So we cover a bit of that in there as well, in terms of the strategy and how it differs very slightly for selling direct versus sending to a retailer. So that's the Facebook ads course. I should probably rename that to Meta ads.

As part of that course, as well, there's also a Facebook group. So there's lots and lots of people in there that will help you answer questions and give feedback on your ads.

I'm in there as well, answering questions or giving feedback, and just helping people out to really support them in their own journey with ads, their Facebook ads.

Yes, the course lays out everything for you, but you can come across issues that are a little bit more specific to you. You might want support on that. I don't want to leave you on your own stranded on top of a hill with no way to get any help or any assistance.

So that's why the Facebook group is there, to help you with all of that. Then if you want to get some feedback on your ads, or on your blurb, or on your headlines, your images, etc, that's going to be done through the Facebook group.

Then leading on from that is that there's The Direct Sales Blueprint for Authors course. Which when this goes out, it will be live and available to sign up for.

In that course, yes, we have a module in there on Facebook ads for direct sales specifically, but that's just one module. The rest of the course is all about getting your store set up. So the minimum viable store that you need to really get going in direct sales.

We walk through how to set up a Shopify account, how to set up your email marketing, how to create product pages, how to create a theme, how to optimize your sales pages, how to create offers, and how to build your email list, and how to scale up your store.

So there's lots of lots of detail in there about really running a direct sales store for your books. It is specifically about books and how to get eBooks into your store, the different options there.

It covers how to integrate a company like Bookvault to print your print books on demand and get them shipped off to your customers all without you having to do anything. It all happens in the background automatically. So we'll show you how to integrate all of that.

So it's really the blueprint for just getting everything set up for your direct sales store. It can be another income stream for you, or it could be your main income stream. It could just be a supplementary income stream for you if you want it to be, or it could be your main thing.

So there's no right or wrong way to do it here, but direct sales is a really powerful platform. We're really enjoying it ourselves. It's made a big difference to Lori's business and also to enable the relationship she has with her readers as well.

It's been a big, big change that we've never had before. We've never experienced it before with Amazon.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. Everyone knows I've done quite a lot of shows now on selling direct, and I really appreciate your approach, and also that you are taking advantage of the AI tools.

Authors who don't want to use AI for writing, no worries, but you can use it for marketing. So I love that you take advantage of that. You also have an email newsletter which gives people quite a lot of tips and things.

Tell people where they can find your newsletter, and the courses, and everything you and Lori do online.Matthew: Sure. Thank you. Yes, so I have a free daily-ish newsletter. It goes out three or four days a week. In that, I just share tips on sometimes it's Facebook ads, sometimes it's direct sales, sometimes it's more about the mindset about running an author business.

It's just really everything I've learned in the past and everything I'm learning right now about running an author business, and in particular, Lori's author business.

When you sign up for that, you also get access to the Facebook Ads for Authors Masterclass. It's a seven or eight lesson video course, completely free, that just walks you through my strategy for Facebook ads.

It will show you how to get everything set up and show you some winning Facebook ad examples. It'll just really help get you started on getting going with your Facebook ads if you're coming to them fresh, or your Facebook ads, like us, just crashed and burned and you don't know where to turn.

This course will just lay out everything that I've learned the hard way and get you going again with your Facebook ads.

I've had plenty of authors come through that course who haven't even bought my paid course, but they've seen a massive transformation in their Facebook ads performance, just through what I'm sharing in that free course. So that's completely free when you sign up for the newsletter.

Then Lori's books are at LoriHolmesBooks.com. That's where you can see her store. They're also on Amazon, and they're on the other retailers such as Kobo and Barnes and Noble. But primarily, we're really focused on the direct sale store.

Joanna: I don't think you gave the URL for your newsletter.

Matthew: I didn't, you're right. It's MatthewJHolmes.com. That's where you go for the newsletter and for my free Facebook ads course.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Matt. That was great.

Matthew: Thank you so much, Jo. It's been a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

The post Tips For Selling And Marketing Direct Using Meta Ads With Matthew J Holmes first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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There are more options for publishing and reaching readers than ever before, and the indie author business models are splintering and diverging, so how do we know which path to follow?

How do we deal with the changes due to generative AI, and how do we manage the grief and anxiety about these shifts? Becca Syme gives her perspective.

In the intro, Kobo Plus launches in Ireland and South Africa [KWL]; Authors Equity [Publishing Perspectives]; Selling direct insights [Kindlepreneur]; Claude 3 [Anthropic]; Spear of Destiny.

This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.

Becca Syme is an author, coach, and creator of The Better-Faster Academy. She is a USA Today bestselling author of small-town romance and cozy mystery, and also writes the ‘Dear Writer' series of non-fiction books.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Saturation causing a shift in the indie author business model
• The importance of having certainty in your own process
• An ego shift when selling direct
• Deciding on a business path amid uncertainty
• Choosing your ‘hard'
• Adapting the vision of your future in an ever-changing industry
• Finding readers in an evolving publishing industry

You can find Becca at BetterFasterAcademy.com.

Transcript of Interview with Becca SymeJoanna: Becca Syme is an author, coach, and creator of The Better-Faster Academy. She is a USA Today bestselling author of small-town romance and cozy mystery, and also writes the ‘Dear Writer' series of non-fiction books. So welcome back to the show, Becca.

Becca: Thank you for having me, again. I love being here.

Joanna: Now, you've been on the show a few times. So we're just going to jump into the topics today, as we've got so much to talk about now.

I've really wanted to talk to you about some of the things I'm seeing in the community right now. You're so wise, and I think people need help and guidance. Sometimes I'm just a little bit blunt about stuff, and you have a different manner.

So the first thing I want to talk about is a shift in the business model for indie authors. You and I were both at the last 20Books Vegas, the last ever one. It feels like what used to be one clear path is splintering into all different things.

What changes are you seeing in the indie author business models? How is it affecting the authors you coach?Becca: The upside, I think, of some of the changes is that we're seeing a real trend away from this expectation of as many books as you can possibly produce — because we've hit the saturation point, basically, everywhere.

There are always going to be these niche genres that pop up that aren't fully saturated yet, but they get to a saturation point pretty quickly. So when the whole of the industry is saturated, that changes the problems that readers have.

So when readers were having a problem in 2012, there just weren't enough books. Like there weren't enough books for them to choose from, and New York sort of kept it that way on purpose, right. They kept the water blue on purpose.

Now that we don't have that problem anymore and readers have different problems, then the way you solve them as a writer is different. So it becomes more and more important to find the people who are going to be your people that you're going to write for and to try to maintain some sense of having people that you are pleasing.

Not that you have to write to market, not that you have to write for anyone but yourself, but we've lost this sense in the industry, I think, of like all you have to do is publish a book and it's going to sell.

By the way, again, I always like to remind people that still wasn't the case, even in the Gold Rush. There still were plenty of books that weren't selling.

We're facing that more now than we ever have because there are so many people who are having the experience of like, “Well, I came in and tried to do this model, and it's not working for me, and so now I have to think of something different.”

The indicators are all there that the problems readers are having are different. So there's no more expectation, in my opinion. It's only grown over the last four or five years that what we're seeing are people who are writing fewer books a year and who are selling more.

The faster and faster and faster you write, you have to know you can produce a product that people want to read if you're going to write that fast. Otherwise, writing that fast is not the way to go.

Joanna: It's funny, I'm actually, as we record this, next week I'm speaking in Seville. I've kind of put a sort of tongue-in-cheek title on one of my slides, which is—“1BookTo50K,” instead of, “20BooksTo50K.” Do you agree with that?

Becca: Oh, yes. I mean, I would say the problems that readers have are always the things that dictate the market, like the way the markets going to function.

When there's too many books in the market—which obviously we're going to talk about that later on in this session as well—but when there's too many books in the market for readers to choose from, they have different problems.

This becomes curation, right? Like, how do I find the books that are going to be the best for me to read?

So putting more and more and more books and just not caring whether they meet reader expectations, not caring whether readers want them or not, that's not the way to solve the problem of curation.

The way to solve the curation problem is to write a better book, and specifically to write a book that people will want to read.So I really believe that despite all the things that are happening in the industry, that for writers who want to write books, craft is going to become more important.

Storytelling and pacing are going to become more important.

There's going to be this resurgence almost of like, well, okay, now the pendulum has swung all the way to one side, in terms of like just creating anything just to put things out in the market, and we're recognizing that that's just not what readers want from us right now.

Readers want better. They want books that they want to read, and however you personally can produce that is the model. Again, I would argue that has always been the model.

Like the model for, let's say, 20BooksTo50K. For the people who can produce a lot of books, then that was the model. But for people who couldn't, there were still people who were only producing one, two, and three books a year, who were making a living writing, even during the gold rush.

Joanna: Like me!

Becca: Yes, like, it's always been that way. However you can produce a book people want to read is how you should produce it, and not pay attention to what other people are doing.

Again, in an industry that's very competitive, it's hard to have that certainty about your own process. So I guess that's always what I'm hoping that I can do is to help people increase their certainty in their own process.

Joanna: So I guess that's one thing, is the writing a lot of books. Especially, and we'll come back to AI, but there's a lot of ways to produce a lot of books very fast. So we can't compete on being a machine in terms of production.

Another change, I think, is that the focus up until reasonably recently, I guess, was Amazon. Then, of course, there was KU plus ads, that digital-first model.

Then even authors who go wide were focusing very much on retailers in general. It seems like there's also the shift into the selling direct model in different ways.

What are those other business models you're seeing?Becca: I mean, I would agree with all of those, just in terms of the more reader-focused that we can become. I think the more we can think about how to solve the problems that readers are actually having, the more likely we are to maintain sustainability long-term.

If what readers want is more of your world, then you giving them more of your world via something like Patreon, or doing Kickstarter or something like that, is going to be what will keep them invested in your platform, over choosing to go to other people's platforms.

So there's this element for me of when the world shifts, we can't control what happens in the world, so you can either react to it or not.

When the world shifts, and we move towards that people want curation, people want more good books, people want to go deeper into the things that they really like, they want more community, like those are problems that we can solve for them.

Again, like not everybody's a community builder, I get that, but those are problems that we can solve for them.

Using things that are more personal, that offer more access, that give us more control over the data, that seems to be the pendulum swing that we're in right now.Joanna: Well, can I just ask you then on the psychology side, because you're really good at this stuff, and there is a big ego shift when you move to selling direct. Like your Kickstarter, Shopify stores, Patreon, Ream, any of this stuff, there is no bestseller list, no one else can see how much money you're making.

In one way it's freeing and in another way, well, no one can see your sales. Like most of my sales are now no longer tracked by any industry metric. They're kind of invisible.

There's this invisibleness of selling direct.

Which on the one hand, as I said, is great, and on the other hand, the ego sort of is blasted by this. A lot of people ask me this, they say, “But you can't hit a bestseller list this way.”

What do you say to people who are like, well, I need to be seen in that way?Becca: I mean, I do think if you're a person who needs to be seen in that way, and that is genuinely something that you would say, “You know, I've never hit this list before, and I want to hit this list.” I would say it's fine to go ahead and do that.

You just need to know that that is a model that's not necessarily moving forward in the future, especially as a lot of places are starting to get rid of their bestseller lists.

Like we're not 100% sure that the USA Today list is going to last forever. We don't know what's going to happen with the New York Times list in the future. There's so much of that that we don't have control over.

When I coach people individually about this kind of stuff, I'm super clear. Like there are still a lot of people who would benefit from being in trad publishing. There are still a lot of people who would benefit from doing the sort of older model of trying to hit a list because that's something that really is a marker for them, it's something they've always wanted.

Similarly to, you know, talking about other topics that we're going to talk about, there's a level of grief of, well, that industry doesn't exist anymore. Like the industry that we had in 2012 and 2014, or in 2016, that doesn't exist anymore.

So we can either be really frustrated by that and be caught up in this, “but I need it, but I need it,” or—

We can shift into trying to find other ways to meet our ego needs.Just on a side note, because so much of this psychologically is when it meets an ego need for you, is it actually meeting a beneficial need? Or are you in survival mode when you think about not getting that thing, and you don't realize it?

This is part of why I'm encouraging people to read Claire Taylor's books about the Enneagram because she deals a lot with that subconscious fear that's underneath. Like, what happens if I don't get what I want?

I think a lot of us are caught up in ego stroking that is not coming from, let's say, a strengths place. There are some strengths that do need to be seen as being successful, and that's a beneficial thing because it motivates them and makes them successful.

When it's coming from a place of fear, like I won't be okay if I can't prove to other people how much I'm selling, then that's a really different conversation from like, no, seeing those markers motivates me and helps me to compete with my peers and stuff like that. Those are two super different conversations.

If I'm coaching someone and it's very clear that this doesn't feel beneficial, like this feels like a fear-based thing, I usually will refer them to Claire's book.

Joanna: Well, Claire will be coming on the show soon. I haven't spoken to her yet, but—

Becca: Yay.

Joanna: On that, this is something I have been thinking about. There has been some things happening in the community where I've been then questioning, what if I let this go, this podcast go, and I let go my desire and the status I do get from being visible in the author community?

Sometimes it's very difficult, as you know, because you're in a similar situation. Sometimes I just think, well, could I be just a writer and shut up and stop talking about it and just do it?

I do question, like, is it coming from a place of fear? Like, could I survive that way? Or is it that, actually, I do want to be part of a community, I want to help people.

Actually, this podcast helps more people than my books do. It's something I struggle with all the time. I mean, how do you deal with that?

Becca: I have similar questions, too. Like, is it coming from a beneficial place for me? Here's how I internalize it, because I know you also have futuristic as one of the Clifton Strengths, right?

I'm constantly imagining my paths forward and then living in that future of like, what would it feel like to exist as a writer, as a novelist, in an industry where I do have so much knowledge about how this works, and I have so much context about what success and failure looks like, and how to help people, could I sit back and watch people struggle?

I'm never going to not be in community with writers if I'm a writer. I'm always going to be at conferences, I'm always going to be talking to people. Could I sit there and watch people struggle and know that I could be helpful and not help? Like, is that possible for me to do?

When I imagine that future, I think, no. Like, I don't think I could do that. But what is it about my current situation that I don't like?

I've been talking a lot lately about building a house that you want to live in, in terms of sustainability. What I've done in my nonfiction career is I've inadvertently built a house that I can't live in. It takes too much personal connection for me, it takes too much of my time, etc.

So as a futuristic, what I'm trying to do is think about where is the level of energy that I'm willing to give to this business and this industry that is sustainable for me? And then how do I get from where I am now down to that place? That's what I'm navigating currently, and then what I'll do when I get there.

I have some like metrics for my hours per month. How much time do I want to spend coaching? How much time do I want to spend writing? How much time do I want to spend on nonfiction content?

Once I get to those numbers, then I'm going to stop and reevaluate and be like, okay, is this a house I can live in in terms of if I stay in the industry and I'm less visible than I used to be, can I imagine myself forward from that place?

I do feel like the future changes so much from different vantage points. So I may not be able to tell, if I quit completely, if I'm going to be okay 10 years from now, but I can tell better if I minimize what I'm doing. Then I can pause in a year or pause in eight months, and say, okay, now am I okay? Then I'll ask that question differently at the end of 2024.

If I were to say, zero is not possible. Otherwise, I'd have to stop writing if I was going to do zero nonfiction work at this point. So for me, I'm constantly thinking about, if I was doing it this way for the next 10 years solid, would I be able to maintain that? Then that's kind of how I set my expectations.

Joanna: Yes, and I think for both of us, so people listening know, neither of us are going anywhere.

We both feel like we are committed, it's just that there are ups and downs in the process.It is interesting, this future-casting. As you say, both of us have futuristic in our Clifton Strengths, but a lot of people don't.

I feel like this splintering of the business models—I mean, I get emails every day right now, and I'm sure you do too, where people say, “I've heard that I can't just publish on Amazon and sell a book anymore. So what do I do? Like you're talking about Shopify and Kickstarter, but I don't have an audience.”

Someone talks about Ream, or Patreon, or Substack, or now someone's doing a trade show or whatever. Like, how do people deal with the uncertainty? And it's, like you said, building for 10 years’ time, because that's what I say.

It's like, well, if you started now on whatever path, in 10 years’ time, you're going be somewhere. So which path do you want to do?

I mean, there is no single formula anymore, in terms of self-publishing, or marketing, or any of these things. There are so many choices.

How do people deal with uncertainty around this? How can they choose the path?Becca: That is a great question. So I have a couple of different answers.

The first is, any person who cannot commit the time or feels just really insecure about doing all of the direct sales and all of the in-person events and things like that, there still are a portion of people who are selling well on the retailers alone.

It's harder to do that. It's much, much harder to get just your ads to deliver and to just sell ebooks only and to make a living doing that, but it's not that no one is doing it. It's just that it's much more difficult than it's ever been before.

So I would say, if you know that that's the only thing that you can handle, then you want to set your expectations for that. You've got to think, well, I have got to do something to make sure that I am pleasing my audience.

Whether that's writing the best book for me, like making me perfectly happy, or writing to market or whatever it is that you're doing —

I have to be willing to take the lumps that come with the path that I choose. There's no lumpless path. There is no silver bullet. So whatever path I choose, I'm basically choosing the hard that I want to continue to replicate.

So if it's too hard for me to imagine having enough self-confidence to do direct sales, to put myself out at a trade show or something like that, then I'm choosing a different version of hard, but it's still going to be hard.

I've been doing a lot of listening to athletes and actors, just like interviews recently, trying to find these little snippets of conversation about things like luck and timing and hard work and talent. Like how do we balance all of the things that are necessary, and how do we increase resilience?

If what we're expecting is that there's an easy button to hit, or there's an easy path, or a path that will not be difficult, then we should not be doing this job because that is definitely not the case.

I mean, I don't think it was ever the case. I just think there are people who like hard work more than others, and so it seems easier for them because they really enjoy the hard work. For those of us who don't like hard work, we have to know that the path is going to be difficult.

So that's kind of the one thing I want to start off with is there are still people who can sell on retailers only, but then you have to make the decisions that are the best for those retailers.

So if you're going to go into KU, you have to make decisions that align well with KU. If you're going to be wide, you have to make decisions that align well with wide.

You have to find the people who are talking about those strategies, and pick one strategy, and do it.This is the second thing I would say about the potential choosing of the path. It is so unlikely in this industry that you're going to have success, period. Like, it's just so unlikely that you're going to hit full-time author income that there needs to be some level of resilience in that space.

So if you're going to work until you hit that, that you know that it's possible to not sell, and not sell, and not sell, and not sell, and then sell. So the commitment to just doing whatever it takes to hit that space is what I think is the missing piece for an awful lot of where I'm seeing the industry going right now.

There are a lot of people who came in with the belief that it should be easy because the way that it was often talked about was how easy it was. I just think it's never actually been easy, though.

I think we have to understand how much hard work is going to be involved in it, and we have to be willing to do that if what we want is that outcome.

Of course, and I'm sure Claire will talk about this when she comes on, but not everyone should be shooting for full-time income. That's not what's going to make everyone the happiest, especially because—and I talk about this from a strengths perspective a lot—especially because trying to write full time for some brain wirings is actually not beneficial.

For some people, putting the amount of pressure on yourself where you're tying your stability and security to your creativity is going to make your creativity go away. It's going to become harder and harder to produce, the more difficult the sales become.

So there are a lot of people in this industry who, for reasons of safety and security being the number one goal, need to have at least a part-time job bringing in money so that writing never becomes the thing they rely on to pay their mortgage.

If not, eventually the creativity is going to become inaccessible because the pressure will get to be too big.

That's something we don't talk about a lot because it's not sexy. You're not going to make a class talking about how you shouldn't quit your day job.

The reality is that an awful lot of us will function better in our creativity, and write better books, and make more money, if we don't have to rely on the books to produce our mortgage payments.Joanna: Yes. I mean, I've always talked about multiple streams of income.

I do make good money from book sales alone, but like you, I have other forms of income. This podcast is one of them. I like having that. It makes me feel more secure.

I love how you talk about choosing the hard you want.

Because I also still see people who are like, “Oh, well, you know, it's easy to self-publish, and that's what makes it like almost worthless. Whereas getting a traditional publishing deal is hard.”

You're completely right, like—

Being a successful indie author is just as hard, just in a different way.Becca: It's a different kind of hard.

Joanna: Yes, and it's so funny because at the moment some of the emails I get, I'm like, look, I think you should just go and pitch a publisher.

If you're not willing to do the work around reaching readers yourself and you think a publisher will do it for you, then go pitch a publisher.I mean, do you find yourself saying that now? It's so weird. I haven't done that for a long time.

Becca: Yes, and in fact, I regularly still have coaching calls where I'll say to someone, “I do think trad is a better fit for you.” Especially the people who are not in a place emotionally where they can handle a lot of attention.

As an indie, you have to be your own salesperson. There are a lot of people who cannot do that for themselves because they just don't have the emotional tools for that right now.

I have a Patreon/BeccaSyme where I write blog posts every once in a while, and I'm constantly saying in my Patreon, we need to increase our emotional resilience skills if we're going to remain indie.

There's always going to be pain and difficulty, and you're going to get into fight or flight mode about things.

If you don't have the capacity to regulate yourself, like your own nervous system, then you're not going to survive in this industry because it's so competitive, and it's so painful.

Even in the places where it's like, “Oh my gosh, yes, it's so supportive and we're all talking about how supportive it is,” and by the way, if you have to talk about how supportive it is, I question how supportive it is.

We're constantly having these conversations about like, yes, where there are these supportive corners. And yet, if you're talking just to individual authors, we know how difficult this job is.

People who are trying to get into this job need to understand, like, I have to have emotional resilience, I have to be able to put myself out there in front of people.

That might mean there's a skill that is not being executed in my brain right now that I might have to work on. I might have to reparent myself, so that I can have a better chance at doing well at this job.

There's nothing shameful about that. That is actually really excellent self-management and self-leadership in knowing, you know what, I'm not great with criticism, so I'm going to go work on getting better at criticism because I want to write better books.

Right now, every time my editor sends me feedback, I get triggered so bad, I can't read the feedback and work on the book. I have to put the book away.

Then I'm like, great, let's work on some emotional resilience skills there then, so that you can take that criticism so that you can continue to grow and get better.

That's definitely the key long-term in this industry: emotional resilience and growth.Joanna: Oh, so much there. Well, talking about resilience then, another big impact right now is the discussions around generative AI.

I mean, you and I have been around this industry a while. We've dealt with some of the big waves of war within the community. I mean, there's been a number of these.

There's also been some kind of real hate at different points around various people's choices. And a lot of, again, splintering. I feel like it's quite a relevant word around people's attitudes around generative AI.

I mean, my listeners are at least AI-curious, or AI-positive. The anti-AI ones have gone away, generally, by now. So we sit in between the thing, but a lot of people are going through a difficult time.

We mentioned grief earlier. I do want to come back to that because I feel like I faced some of these existential questions around AI a year or so ago. I feel like I've been through some of this, and there's a recalibration of what it means to be an author and why we write.

There's this focus on craft and the process, rather than the outcome. Can a machine do this better than us? I mean, these are some big questions.

How do you see people dealing with this change badly, and how do we deal with it well?Becca: I mean, there is so much grief around this process because, of course, so many of us grew up with these dreams of having a room of one's own and writing full time, right? Like so many of us grew up with these very vivid pictures.

So when we hear about something like AI, and we think about the shift in the market, or even just you hear me talk about saturation in the market, and it's like, oh, there's this piece in my head, that's like, am I going to have this outcome?

I would say, the important thing about this industry is that it goes through changes all the time, and no one is ever 100% correct about what's going to happen.

If you are sort of struggling with this, I would read the book, Same as Ever by Morgan Housel. He goes through these really brilliant examples after examples of the things that change the most are the things that surprise us. It's never the stuff that we are prepared for that is what we really need to practice resilience for.

This is what I would say to people. The changes that we know for sure are coming, in terms of we know there are going to be splinters right in the industry—okay, great—

How do I make myself splinter-resilient? How do I find people around me that are going to be positive forces in my life relationally? How do I make connections with people?I can't change how other people feel or think on either side of this debate, pro AI or anti AI.

I can't change how people think, and I can't change how people are going to act. The only thing I can change is myself.

So I need to deal very quickly with whatever grief I'm having about whatever picture I had in my head about what the future would look like because the faster I can get to acceptance, and the faster I can recalibrate what my future could now look like, the better for me.

So thinking about the larger industry—not from a Joanna and Becca perspective, but from like an individual author perspective—if I can't affect change in the larger industry, then I have to be willing to deal with whatever happens.

That means I have to increase my ability to do emotionally resilient things. I have to increase my ability to feel successful no matter what happens.

I have to increase my ability to be able to pivot quickly and release the future that I thought was coming, without releasing my hope for the future.

Regardless of what happens in the industry, people are always going to want to read books, people are always going to want to write books. Like people people, not just machines, but people.

So as long as I know that I'm always going to write no matter what happens, even if that means I have to get a day job to support it, even if that means that I have to change my expectations about the future in order to support it, I know I want to keep writing.

Fixating on whether or not I can have this very specific picture of what I think the future should look like, that's only going to make it harder for me to adapt to the industry. It doesn't mean that I have to release any expectation of how I will feel because that's usually what the picture is going to produce for us.

The picture produces freedom, or the picture produces gratitude, or it produces security, and there are other ways to find that other than the very specific picture that I have in my head.

That's what I would say is I want us to all be as quick to accept and pivot as we can, and then as quick to provide ourselves with the needs that we have, rather than waiting for the industry to change back or waiting for the industry to catch up.

Whatever it is that we're feeling, we have to take agency for ourselves and be responsible for our own emotions.Joanna: Absolutely. It's interesting, I mean, just in terms of practical steps. I mean, I'm an input person as well, so I input a lot on all of this stuff, and even I get overwhelmed sometimes.

So my two things are I get off social media and the internet in general, go for a walk or something, and then also, I write. As in, I create. I find joy in the process of writing.

We are writers. We write, and we love creating, and that's not going to stop. If the whole world loses their jobs to AI, everyone will be on universal basic income, and we'll still write. I think it's like, okay, this is actually amazing. It could be really amazing. So just thinking about it that way.

I wanted to ask you about social media because we talked earlier about finding the people who are your people, finding readers. A lot of people are having to step off social media right now—

How are people meant to find readers if things are changing so much?Becca: I would say every avenue that's open to you, I would use it as strategically as possible. So for instance, make sure that it is exceptionally clear how people get on your newsletter in every single book that you publish. Make sure that your funnel is super, super intact.

I'm not talking about the 45 steps of creating a perfect funnel, I literally just mean if someone picks your book up, and they want more from you, is it easy for them to figure out how to get on your mailing list and how to get more from you?

This is maybe the bigger piece for me about longevity and sustainability, is —

We have to be willing to build slowly if that's what it's going to take to have a long-term sustainable career.It's possible that me getting a BookBub every once in a while, and me running some ads, and me sort of chugging along in my book sales, and then building my newsletter organically, or building my community or my Patreon organically, is going to be the way that I'm going to function the best because it allows me to not be as present on social media, if that's what I need to do.

Then what I want to make sure that I do for myself, again, I need to practice agency with my own feelings and not allow myself to feel preyed upon by whatever is happening in the larger industry. That is where the most unhappiness and ineffectiveness comes from is where I get stuck in a space where I miss the fact that I can choose to do something different.

I can choose to feel different. I can choose to look at different data. I can choose to not be present in some of those groups. I can choose to not listen to some of those people who are creating a lot of fear in me. I have agency over my own story.

That's what I want us to remember. As long as I don't quit, as long as I don't give up, there's always more possibility in the future for me to grow more, to put more books out, to have more readers to make more money. There's always a possibility for that, but I have to be willing to do whatever it takes and not give up.

Joanna: Yes, and it just comes back to what we love about this process.

Like we talked about earlier, you and I back away sometimes, but we come back to this because we really do love it. We love the writing, we love the community. So yes, people listening, we're not going anywhere.

You've mentioned sustainability and resilience a few times, and—

You've got this brilliant digital conference coming up. Tell us a bit about that.Becca: Yes, we're going to do something a little different in this digital con. We're going to have a couple of days of presentations on the first weekend. It is going to be the second week in May is when we're going to start. Then we're going to give you a week off to go and do some homework. Then we're going to come back for a day and half on the second side.

So the conference dates—and when you see the website, you'll see what I mean—but the conference dates are going to say something different. The goal is we want to give you a chance to put some of this into practice and to go and do some of the analysis, in terms of like my own stability, my own skills.

What am I expecting from myself that I can't continue to produce for forever? How can I build a sustainable business? It is basically the question: how do I build a house that I can live in?

So that's the big question for me in this conference. We call it the QTP Con, The Question The Premise Con. Basically, our goal this year is to talk about building sustainable author businesses.

Joanna: Brilliant.

Where can people find that, and you, and your books, and everything you do online?Becca: BetterFasterAcademy, all one word. BetterFasterAcademy.com. All of that should be in various places on that front page.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Becca. That was great.

Becca: Thanks for having me.

The post Dealing With Change And How To Build Resilience As An Author With Becca Syme first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How can you create more beautiful print books — and make more money with your products by selling direct? Alex Smith explains how BookVault can help with various options as well as helpful resources.

In the intro, audiobooks and AI [Frankfurt Bookmesse]; Artificial Intelligence, Blockchain, and Virtual Worlds by Joanna Penn; Google's woke AI Gemini [The Verge]; AI solving humanity's hardest problems [NY Times]; Demis Hassabis on Hard Fork [NY Times]; Finding my voice in the AI wars [Talena Winters].

Plus, Author Blueprint (2024) is now in print (or get the ebook here); Spear of Destiny prelaunch page.

Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna

Alex Smith is the technical lead of Bookvault.app, the independent printer that I use for the books I sell direct on Shopify, as well as for my Kickstarters.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Services that Bookvault offers authors in order to make beautiful books and make more money selling direct
• Common issues to avoid when uploading files
• Special edition books—ribbons, sprayed edges, foiling options, and more
• Options for photo books or art books
• Working with Bookvault to create and fulfill a Kickstarter campaign
• How to get more help if you need it
• How the payment and fulfillment process works
• Connecting Bookvault to your direct online store

Find out more about Alex Smith and Bookvault at Bookvault.app, which fulfils the print editions of my books at CreativePennBooks.com, and JFPennBooks.com.

Transcript of Interview with Alex SmithJoanna: Alex Smith is the technical lead of Bookvault.app, the independent printer that I use for the books I sell direct on Shopify, as well as for my Kickstarters. So welcome to the show, Alex.

Alex: Thank you so much for having us on.

Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. So first up, just—

Tell people a bit more about Bookvault.And also how its parent company has been around much longer than people might think, given you kind of came out of nowhere a couple of years ago.

Alex: Yes, so Bookvault is part of a large company called Print On Demand Worldwide. So we've been going for just shy of 29 years now. So, longer than me.

Joanna: That's really funny. Wait, how old are you?

Alex: I'm 24, nearly 25.

Joanna: That's a great line. Okay, just so people know, you don't own the company, right? You're the technical lead, and you help all of us authors with all our stuff. Sorry, carry on about Print on Demand Worldwide.

Alex: Yes, so we have our own production facility in the UK based in Peterborough, so 70 miles north of London. From there, we've done short run printing for that length of period.

It was about 2009 that we launched Bookvault, and that was to serve our traditional publishers that we'd been working with, mainly in the academic sector.

So they had a need to print single books on demand and in kind of a simple ordering process. So Bookvault was always kind of fenced off for them. It was an invite-only kind of system.

When COVID struck, pretty much as everyone did, we sat back and evaluated our business. It gave us a real good time to kind of see where we're going. So we took those two years to completely redevelop the system, moving it more to kind of a self-sign-up approach and target the indie author market as well.

So we relaunched it around late 2021. That's when we popped up on the scene. I think we then met you at London Book Fair in '22, and that's where we've been going since.

Joanna: Yes, and as we speak, you're at another conference, and you're at a lot of the conferences. So hopefully, some of the people listening might have met you or Curtis or one of the team. Just in case people don't know—

What does Bookvault offer authors right now? What are the main services that authors are using?Alex: So our big focus is to deliver high-quality books to help our authors earn more.

So we've got a wide variety of print options. So we currently offer six stocks. So that ranges everything from the kind of similar stuff that you get from KDP and Ingram with those traditional trade papers.

Equally, we offer some more kinds of different papers. So a really nice, coated paper for children's books and things like that. So that's something we really focus on.

Equally, we've got six different bindings as well. So that allows you to get your traditional paperback or printed case bound.

JF Penn signing Pilgrimage hardbacks at the Bookvault printing factory, Peterborough, UK with alex and curtis from the bookvault teamWe also offer linen wrap with foiling and a jacket. We offer spiral and wire bound, so they're kind of lay-flat books. As well as saddle stitch as well, so that's where you've got a staple in the middle, and that kind of pamphlet thing.

So in terms of sizings as well, we don't have specific sizing. So you can upload a book of any size from A6 all the way to 297×297 millimeters. So it's a really big range, and that's in all those different bindings as well.

Equally, a big thing for us as well is we offer split color. So if you've got a 100-page book and only one-color page, we'll only charge you for that one color page. That is a really big thing for us.

One thing to note as well with Bookvault is that we do have an upload fee. That does stop the mass uploads. So when we initially relaunched it, it was a bit of naivety from us, we had someone in a weekend upload 20,000 books, all with different kittens on.

So that completely ground the system to a halt and realized we had to do something. I mean, I like kittens, but not that many kittens. So we had to put that upload fee in place.

We do work with organizations, such as the Alliance of Independent Authors, and every Alliance of Independent Authors member gets unlimited free title uploads each month. So it's not there as a barrier, it's just there to make sure that we've got genuine people wanting to make genuine money for selling their books.

Joanna: We know how important that is. I actually think some of these other places are going to put in some kind of nominal fee because it is kind of getting a bit crazy.

Let's come back to a few of the books. So amusingly, because of the sizing, this is what's so funny. You remember it, right, we met at London Book Fair, and I said, “Can I upload my five by eight files, the ones that I'd already got for KDP?”

Lulu, the kind of other main one that people were using for things like Kickstarter and all of that, they didn't offer a five by eight. So that was the moment I was like, “Great. I can just upload the same file.”

So I wanted to point that out to people is the files that you might have done for KDP, you can upload to Bookvault. The upload is pretty easy, but just tell people—

What are some common issues that you see in the files that people send?Alex: Yes, certainly I think using a template or getting your sizing right is the most important one.

We have a few set sizes that people generally use there, as well as a custom one. There’s a size called “standard,” and quite a lot of people seem to tick that one no matter what size their file is and think that they're going to produce a standard book with whatever you upload.

So it's really important to make sure your sizing is exactly correct. We do have online validation. So as soon as you upload a file, it'll automatically go through and ticket, and then it'll be straight away ready to order. So it's kind of worth doing that.

Then once you have uploaded, make sure to download the files and do a virtual proof and check that they look okay as well.

I think you probably agree, the most important thing we see what people don't do is order a proof when you've uploaded it. So you can just order a single copy to yourself.

We've had people upload a title and then do a Kickstarter run of 500 books, and as soon as it comes off the end of the line, it gets warped because it doesn't look right. It's always a pretty nerve-wracking experience.

Joanna: Yes, I mean that it's just crazy. A couple of things there, one is—and amusingly, I said five by eight there, which is in inches if people don't know—and I think you've now added a toggle, haven't you, so that it's centimeters and inches.

Alex: Yes, millimeters and inches. We've had people trying to upload a book that was five millimeters by eight millimeters. So they ran into a few issues there.

Joanna: That's so funny.

Alex: Being a UK company, even myself, trying to get my head around inches and millimeters, I need a little pocket calculator to quickly do it. But yes, you can toggle between it.

Joanna: Also, so people know, because I did this the other day, you can upload an interior file and then download a template for the cover, can't you?

Alex: Yes. So that's something we've worked on, and we're looking to enhance it even further.

Even before you've made a title, you can go onto our quoting tool, put the sizes in and specifications, and then you can download both an interior template and a cover template. As well as if you want to upload a jacket as well, you can download a jacket template.

Joanna: So then the other thing is, I think many of us want to do more and more higher quality print books. You mentioned six stocks and special paper, you mentioned six bindings and lots of different types of things.

I know in terms of the covers, you can have different colored covers and materials. Like I did a ribbon, and there's all this different foil, and it's almost like there are so many options now.

What is the process for an author who might be thinking about doing higher quality print books?How do they know what to even think about asking for or trying out?

Alex: So something we really pride ourselves on is customer service. So that's something we've noticed as we've grown, we're expanding with customer service because we really want to make sure that we can offer a really high level of service to everyone.

So I think we've got two new people starting this week. So we're growing quite, quite big there. So one thing I would always suggest is on our contact page, you can book a call with someone. So you can book a call with one of our print experts to kind of talk through your options.

They can show you on a video of what you might be looking at as well. So that's free of charge. Quite a lot of our customer service people come from the print floor, so they will have a very detailed knowledge of how it all works.

Joanna: That's good. I mean, I take lots of pictures of books, like at London Book Fair, where I'll see you in a couple of weeks’ time. It's like, okay, I really like that, I don't know what it's called, but if I show that picture to you, you'll know what it's called.

Alex: Yes. We have been stumped a couple of times because the obscurity, especially some books coming out of China, there's things we've never seen. Generally, there's at least someone in the office that knows what it is.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. So a couple of things that people might have heard of that may be coming. I mean, like you did ribbons for me.

Can anyone order ribbons now?Alex: That's ready to go. So it'll be launching very imminently, probably in the next couple of weeks. It's something that we want to make sure, again, that we've got the level of customer service that we need for when they launch. We feel there's going to be a few questions.

So we've got quite a big event block at the moment, but as soon as that's kind of finished the end of March time, they'll be coming out live on the portal for anyone to order.

Joanna Penn with gold foil edition of Writing the Shadow (Kickstarter only)Joanna: Oh, okay. Then what about foil? Because Sacha Black right now is doing an amazing cover with rainbow foil. Like, I'm a bit jealous because I had really beautiful gold foil on Writing the Shadow, but now I'm like, rainbow foil, I didn't even know rainbow foil was a thing!

Tell us more about foil options.Alex: So as I say, we're kind of taking it back as a company. Our owner, Andy Cork, he's always been a yes-man. So whenever the publishers come up to him asking for something, he would always say yes. It'll be one of the things where when he walks in the office, we're always worried about what he's agreed to next.

So as a company, we like to be able to do things that maybe other POD printers can't do. So we're introducing foiling. So that'll be the case that you supply an additional file with a black outline of what you want foiling.

Effectively, once we've printed the cover, the jacket, we can then put it through the foiling machine and it will print the foil on top as well. So we've got gold, silver, the holographic rainbowy silver, as well as a green, I believe. We'll kind of be expanding that along with these new changes with ribbons, as well as head and tail bands and endpapers as well.

Joanna: Oh, endpapers.

Tell me about endpapers.Because that was on my list.

Alex: So printed endpapers, for those that don't know, is when you open the hardback of a book, usually with POD printing it will be either white or cream printed on the inside of the case. So printed endpapers are effectively similar to an interior page where we would print in color kind of another full spread image across it. So it creates a really nice high-quality finish.

Again, with Sacha Black's most recent Kickstarter, we printed some lips on the inside. So yes, you'll be able to upload an additional file on both the front and back of the hardback book, which will be a completely printed endpaper.

Joanna: Will the texture be different? Or is it just like normal paper?

Alex: It is a slightly thicker paper. It's 170 GSM. So it's kind of the same thickness as a jacket.

Joanna: Okay, cool. I should say, Sacha's are not just lips, they're vampire lips with fangs. People can have a look at that on her Kickstarter, which I'll link. It might have finished by the time this goes out, but the pictures will still be on the Kickstarter. So I think this is really, really cool.

So let's go through some of the other things that might be coming in this year that people might be interested in.

Alex: The biggest thing that I'm most excited about, and I guess it's something we haven't talked about too much.

We've just signed the contract for a new machine which will be doing sprayed edges. I think the recent kind of delivery date we've been given is July.

So that will land in the facility in July, and we've already done the code for it. So as soon as it's kind of there, we'll be able to drop it straight onto the site. So on a single copy basis you can do sprayed edges books as well. I'm really excited about that.

Joanna: On a single copy. So that'll be print on demand?

Alex: Yes. All print on demand.

Joanna: Wow. Okay. So if people don't know—

What are sprayed edges?Alex: So on both paperback and hardback, if you've got a book block, you normally kind of just see the white or the cream of the paper on the edge of the book itself. So you'll be able to print a fully digital image on that.

So we've seen some really cool ones where the front cover wraps all the way round to the back and again, so it's like a complete 360-degree picture. Or people have done really nice patterns and stuff like that. So yes, it's really exciting.

Joanna: So just to be clear, if people are holding a book in their hand with the spine against their palm, kind of the edges of the pages if they hold it towards them normally look white or cream, as you say. This will be that you can actually have a pattern on there or, like you say, a cover. So it means you can just put a lot more art on your book, right?

Alex: Yes. I think it's one of those where you look at Kickstarter and someone is selling their kind of traditional book there for 10 or 15 pounds, or with sprayed edges it is 60 or 70 pounds. So it just makes so much more of a premium product.

It's one of those that probably you won't traditionally do it for every book you sell. You kind of sell to those superfans, this special edition, and really on a higher markup. It is just great at the end of it.

Joanna: Well, that is cool because my next Kickstarter, Spear of Destiny, will happen in June. So that might be possible, right?

Alex: Yes, I would imagine so. That'll be really exciting.

Joanna: That will be. What I like I think about doing the, as you say, it could be print on demand, but I actually really like doing the special editions for the Kickstarters. Like Sacha's doing, too. Obviously, signing them and all that kind of thing.

So it is interesting to consider what we can do as print on demand, and then what we keep as special, I guess. Are there any things that you do that would have to be a special run?

Alex: No. So I guess our business model has always been print on demand, because at the end of the day, you would also want to see a proof. So we just like to set ourselves up as anything we can do as print on demand.

I mean, certainly with these bespoke things, it won't be as you expect with Amazon and Ingram where they come in a couple of days. It will take slightly longer. I think that's something you can—if you're selling direct—you can deal with by messaging and say it's bespoke, and it's being handmade, etc. So, yes, that's kind of the route we're taking.

Joanna: Yes, we'll come back to what's different about selling direct, but just a few more things. So last summer, you made a box for a trilogy of mine.

It is actually a box for a box set. What's the update on that?Alex: Yes, they're kind of all lined up with this launch, with ribbons, advanced foiling, and all of those things. So it's going to be a very exciting release.

Mapwalker boxed set – mockup without special designAs I say, it's something I think is going to completely change the way of our business, as well as kind of the way that authors have the ability to do stuff because there's very little options out there, especially on a single copy basis, to do these special editions.

Joanna: Okay, and so on that, the box would be different for every single person's books. It's not a standard size. So it would get built to order.

Alex: Yes, so already on Bookvault, you can create a bundle. So effectively, you select a series of books that you want to be shipped together, and then that gives you a single ISBN or SKU. Then you can download a template for that to be able to generate a book box.

So we're also working with Reedsy, we're just working with some of their designers as well. So we have some designers on hand that we can point in the direction of to create that artwork box as well. It's a bit different, I guess, to the traditional thing that you'd expect with a book.

Joanna: Yes, and this is really interesting because I do agree. I think the design has to be more than just what was on the cover, for example. So yes, there's a lot more potential design work involved, which in itself is very exciting.

I guess for people listening, the reason we're doing this is, one, because we all love books, and we really like beautiful objects. But also —

We need to set ourselves apart with beautiful print products in a world where there are millions of digital books. I think this is a way to set ourselves apart.

Also, we can make more money per copy. We're not going to go into the finances of this, and obviously, these more special editions cost more money to print, but you can still make a good profit, as I know.

So just a few more things. So my next project after Spear of Destiny is going to be a high-quality photo coffee table book on Gothic Cathedrals.

If people want to do photo books or art books, what are the options for that?Alex: So we offer two different print options at Bookvault. So we've got standard and premium. So our standard print is all done via an inkjet. So effectively, it's a massive roll of paper on the end of a printer that kind of goes straight through and is chopped straight into a book. That works fantastically for, I'd say, 99% of all books.

We do also offer premium printing as well. So that comes out of a toner device. So it's kind of your traditional printer of feeding in sheets and trimming them down from that.

So that's perfect, as you mentioned, for the coffee table books and those side of things. So it's really nice vibrant color on a glossy paper you would traditionally see with photo books or coffee table books.

The one thing I would mention, and it's always good to be open with this caveat, is we are still a digital printer. So you won't get those Pantone color matches that you might do with other arts printers or litho printers or things like that. We try to get the best color match for your file, but equally, there may be a slight deviation.

Joanna: Yes, okay. That's great. I've written down here, “Kickstarter help.”

You're also going to offer help with Kickstarter files soon.Alex: Yes.

Joanna: Because you and I have had emails going backwards and forwards with spreadsheets, and you guys have been so helpful to me. But obviously, if more and more authors do this, you can't necessarily offer sort of individual help like you've given me.

Alex: As Kickstarters are growing more and more, myself, personally, yes, head banging against the wall with different data and kind of formats and stuff like that. So we've built in a bulk upload tool.

So again, this will be launching with all these ribbons. It's going to be a big launch of kind of all the bespoke options and Kickstarter help.

So effectively, you'll be able to upload your spreadsheet, that's your kind of backer spreadsheet of Kickstarter, or a template one that you've created yourself. That sends the data fields to Bookvault, and then it will automatically import all those orders for you.

So the plan is, it's very hands off. So certainly, it's going to make our life easier, but also you can upload a bulk order in a matter of, I say, minutes. It's still good to check all the data and make sure it's come across as you'd expect.

We've seen, I don't know why, just someone sent over a spreadsheet the other week that had obscure spaces, so it just made every space got replaced with a question mark or something like that. So it's always good just to validate it, and if you have any issues reach out to us. But with 99% of people that should just be a case of uploading a file and it importing all the orders.

Joanna: Oh, I'm excited about that. So wait, that will be done by my next campaign?

Alex: Yes, it will be.

Joanna: Thank goodness for that. I think this is what's exciting. One, thank you personally, because I very much value having someone who's so enthusiastic about technology. Also, you have this great can-do attitude. I guess you mentioned Andy has that too, and the team generally does. It's like, we're going to make this happen.

So often with tech companies, having also worked for some myself, it's, “No, you can't do that. You have to do what our system tells you to do. We're not going to build anything.” Whereas you'll just be like, “No, we can do that,” and build something, which I love.

Alex: I think that's obviously myself attending some of your events as well. I think the first one for me was 20Books Vegas where I was kind of taken a bit back. It was just me on a little table, and I basically lost all my material within the first hour.

So it was really fantastic speaking to authors and hearing what they want to do.

Our passion as a company is to enable people to earn more.I think we're looking at it, seeing the traditional players kind of saying you've got to adhere to exactly what they want to do, or you don't do it at all. So yes, it's certainly something we're really pushing at as a business because we can and we want to.

Joanna: I mean, we're indie authors, and you're an indie printer. So, I mean, yes, that's the idea, which I love. I also want people listening to keep this in mind.

I feel like, and I'm sure you guys do, people have a certain way of addressing KDP help or Ingram Spark help or some of the help desk for some of the big companies.

They might assume that you have warehouses and warehouses of staff, but you don't, do you? It's a small company.

Alex: So I mean, we are growing. So that's one big thing for us is customer service. That's why we just took on two new people, and it's kind of an ever-growing thing.

We are a relatively small company. We still have room for growth and things like that. But, yes, there is always someone at the end of the phone or at the end of the email that is a nice person. So they'll help you.

Joanna: Yes, so be nice. I do like that you now have a help desk ticket system. This is something of what was on my list for you like last year or whatever. It was like you need a ticket system. So now, once you're a Bookvault customer, you can access this form, and you can raise a ticket.

I mean, obviously there are always—not always, not every single time—but I mean, I sell quite a lot of books, and a customer might email me and say, “Oh, this shipment didn't arrive,” or something. I just go in, and I raise a ticket, and one of the team will look at it.

So I think it's really good that you have that way of doing stuff. That's important as well. It makes me feel happy that you're dealing with it, and the team do that really quickly.

Alex: I think support is something we saw with our growth, we noticed a demand in. So we introduced a ticket system. We've also been kind of expanding our Help Center as well. Generally, if there's something not on the Help Center, as they're replying to an email, they'll also add it on there as well. So that's ever growing.

Also, we're working with a creator as well to create some YouTube videos on the whole process of Bookvault, kind of step through how to do each thing as well. So that's something that is ever growing for us as well.

Joanna: Okay, a couple more things. One is I am very lucky in that I can drive like three hours and can be at your factory, and that's how we've done the signing for the book. Sacha lives in Peterborough, so she pops around to there too.

Joanna Penn signing Writing the Shadow Nov 2023What if people want signing options? I mean, there is something called tip-ins. Is that a possibility? Or is it that people will have to ship books to themselves and then ship them on?

Alex: Yes, certainly that's something we're exploring. So we are, I guess, starting with the basic stuff with the kind of bespoke stuff, the ribbons and things like that.

Signing is something we're addressing. I think the biggest concern for us is we obviously print in the UK and the US, but the US is not our facility. So we can't just demand them to do certain things. So stuff like signed books would have to be done in the UK.

So we're just kind of looking at the customs side of things of shipping paper over there for them to sign and then shipping it back. So we don't have an estimate on it yet, but it's certainly something we're looking at. Because, again, a signed book is something you can add a lot more value to as well.

Joanna: Exactly. I mean, I love the fact that I've been an indie author for like 15 years now, and every year we have had more options for what we can do.

Every year we get closer to being able to do exactly what traditional published authors can do.I mean, I remember back in the day, we weren't even allowed to do pre-orders on Kindle, or as a non-American author, I couldn't even publish on Kindle back in like 2008, whenever it was.

So it's so brilliant to hear some of the things you're bringing in. You know, we see pictures of Neil Gaiman who obviously is super famous, but he will sign front sheets. He doesn't sign books, he'll sign front sheets, and then they'll get sent to the printer, and then they'll get put in.

Let's face it, there's some indie authors with really big audiences who might be interested in doing that.

Alex: Yes, definitely. As you say, I think it's interesting because —

We're coming to the point now where the indies are in front of the traditional publishers. I think that's kind of where it's heading, you know, it's a lot more adaptable.

Whereas traditional publishers just think that they can stay with their traditional ways and do what they do, indie publishers are actually pushing forward and doing more interesting and exciting things as well.

Joanna: Yes, absolutely. Or, I guess, like we mentioned, it's rare to see. Like at Christmas, I saw a couple of books with sprayed edges in Waterstones, I bought one for my niece, but they're just not normal because they're more expensive. Most books don't get that treatment. So yes, I'm excited about that.

You mentioned the US printer. So talk about that, because obviously your Peterborough plant is in the UK.

Tell people if they're in the US or want to sell to the US, how does that work?Alex: So we have a partner facility based out of Ohio in Ashland through Baker and Taylor. So they've been in the printing game a long time as well. Our US expansion started last July when we started sending books over there, and it's kind of continually going.

To be completely honest, we've been taken aback by the demand. So there's been cases where things have moved a bit slower than we would like, but the great thing is we've always been able to back that up with our UK facility as well.

So whereas if something is out of capacity in the US, we've been able to ship from the UK in kind of the same time scales for our consolidated service, so that's a positive.

So they offer kind of the base specs things. So they do the split color. They also do printed paperbacks and printed hardbacks in your kind of trade paper, so your cream and your white kind of textbook paper as such.

So yes, that's all printed out of the US. The timescales are generally three to five days for a book. So, again, it's nice and quick.

Joanna: Yes, and just to circle back to bundles because we glossed over that. It really is brilliant in that when you go to create a book, you can create a book, and then you can create a bundle and link them together.

12 book bundle – order with one product on jfpennbooks.com which is a bundle dealSo on my Shopify store, people can order, say, the first three of my ARKANE thrillers in print, and it goes through as one order as a bundle, and they get a special deal. It just makes it much more easier to price at the front end.

Also, then the order goes through, and then it's three — or 12 — books. I have those going out almost every day in the US, which is pretty exciting. So yes, I do think that that bundle technology, which again, people can do it themselves. Like they don't have to ask anyone, right? They just go in and set up another bundle.

Alex: Yes, and that's what we generally do. We kind of start stuff off as a closed thing, so similar to what we've done with the bespoke options. We do it ourselves manually for a bit, just to try and iron out any kinks or work out what goes wrong.

We did that with bundles, and I know that got very tedious. So yes, we now have the option for someone just to log onto the Bookvault portal and set up bundles themselves and get it all going. So it's really, really good.

Joanna: It is. Just for people, if you are selling direct, bundling print books is fantastic. It makes the deal look better, but you can also make good money. Whereas people are like, “Oh, you can just do that on Amazon.” Well, Amazon's print prices, we make very little money from print on Amazon.

This is, again, why we're all so excited. We can actually make decent money on print and print bundles. So I have bundles of three, and I have a 12-book bundle which also sells So yes, that's exciting.

SUCCESSFUL FICTION AUTHOR BUNDLE AT CREATIVEPENNBOOKS.COMSo I also wanted to ask about merchandise since you have a sister company that offers mugs and stuff like that. Many authors who have Shopify stores want to add this kind of thing.

What's happening with merchandise?Alex: Yes, so we have as part of the Print on Demand Worldwide umbrella, we also have a company called Photobubble. So that's UK based, and that kind of focuses on the equivalent of Snapfish. So we do photo books, and as you say, mugs, tote bags, etc.

So that is something we're planning to merge into the Bookvault system as well. So you can bundle things like a coffee mug with a book and do those kinds of upsell bundles as well.

For Kickstarters, you can do those reward tiers with different things. So again, they will be all print on demand and single copy. I need to get the habit of single copy for mugs, but single mugs. So they'll all be done through the Bookvault portal, and we're probably looking towards the middle of the year for that.

Joanna: Okay, and I mean, most authors are looking at bookmarks, and posters, cards, that kind of thing.

Alex: Yes. Again, that will kind of all be through that side of things as well. So you'll be able to upload a leaflet that goes with every order, or you'll be able to send yourself a boatload of leaflets, or bookmarks, etc.

So yes, that's all exciting. I think that's, again, something that with selling direct, people use apps like Printful, which is great, but then you've got to charge a customer twice for shipping because you've got the book coming from ourselves, and then the mug coming from Printful. So combining those together will be, I hope, a game changer.

Joanna: Exactly. I mean, I did enable some of this originally. Also, I was concerned about the quality. Not that the quality was bad, it's just you really do have to check everything and test everything. I was like, look, I would much rather be able to know that my books are going out with the mug or whatever from you guys. So I turned off my other stuff, and I am waiting for the merch.

Alex: I need to stop going to all these conferences and be tanning myself on the beach!

Joanna: Do some work, Alex. You're so lazy!

Alex: I know.

Joanna: By the way, everyone listening, this is a joke. I have had many emails from Alex at like 1 am or 2 am. I mean, you've worked so hard. Weekends. You barely ever have a day off. I appreciate all your hard work. I know how hard you work, and I really do appreciate it.

Okay, so let's talk about something else, which is when authors do print on demand, usually with Amazon and with Ingram, it's either free or there's a small charge to upload, but then they get paid by that company. So if people use KDP print, Amazon will pay them for the books.

What is the difference when people are using Bookvault or any other service when they're selling direct?Alex: So direct selling is fantastic because you're in control of your own business. So effectively you are the payment gateway. All we would do is take the print.

So effectively, if you had your own direct store, the customer would pay you for the print and shipping of the book. Then you would then just pay us for the print.

So you would kind of get everything there. So it's a really highly profitable way of selling things.

We offer a range of apps for direct sale stores on Shopify, Wix, WooCommerce, Zapier, and there's a few other ones. I think TikTok Shop is in the works as well, which we're really excited for.

Joanna: Payhip as well, I think.

Alex: Yes, Payhip as well. So it's a really good way of kind of doing that as an automated way of the journey. I think it's, for me, I feel like the way forward. It's one of those things that you can't jump into it too quickly, but equally, once you do jump into it and do it bit by bit, it works really well.

Joanna: I would totally agree with you. You and I, I mean, you are very technical, I am reasonably okay with some technical stuff. How technical do people have to be in order to implement Bookvault onto their WooCommerce, or their Wix, or their Shopify?

Alex: I think it all depends on the platform you use. So Shopify, we always tend to direct people to. It's a really nice, simple platform. You can do more advanced things on it, but if you take the kind of baseline, it's really simple.

WooCommerce is kind of a bit more technically minded. There might be plugin conflicts and things like that. So it's always worth noting that.

In terms of the Bookvault app itself, we try and make things as easy as possible. So you effectively go to the systems App Store and install the Bookvault plugin. What that then does is you link up your account, and then you can also link up the titles.

So Bookvault will know that when that title is ordered on your store, it needs to fulfill this product. That works for both individual titles, but as you mentioned before, also bundles as well.

In terms of shipping, we've seen with other apps on the market, people kind of have to go in and do each shipping rate manually one by one and kind of work out. Our app sits in the middle and it will pull the most up to date pricing and serve it to the customer. The customer pays exactly what you would get charged.

That gets updated 24/7, and I think it uploads on Shopify just shy of 40,000 shipping rates. So if you had to do that manually yourself, you'd be there a very long time.

Then when the order comes through, it automatically picks up that order, sends it straight to Bookvault, and print and fulfills it directly to the customer from either the UK or US facility for you.

So the only thing you really need to do is if you're not happy to link a payment card, go in and pay for that order. Or you can add a balance or link a payment card and it'll automatically go through and process that for you.

Joanna: Yes, so just to reiterate, with this way of doing things, like you mentioned, so if someone orders a book on my Shopify store, they will pay, and if it's PayPal, I'll get the money like immediately, and if it's Shopify pay I'll get it within like 48 hours.

If the order goes through to Bookvault, and I have a balance there, and it comes off my balance. Or I could pay for it individually as it goes through, I've got a credit card on it.

You have to pay quicker, but you also get the money quicker. So in terms of cash flow, you do have to be aware of that. Most orders it won't be a problem because you're not going to get like 30,000 orders in one day. So it's more kind of spread out.

I did want to make it clear to people because I feel like some people are surprised that you're not paying them.

Alex: Yes, and I think that it's a different way of doing it. Again, it's one of those that if you do have any questions, you can reach out to the team and they can talk you through the process. They've done it countless times. So yes, it's really good.

Equally as a company as well, we do also offer the kind of distribution model as such. We call it more of a stepping stone to direct sales. So we have our own retailer called The Great British Bookshop, and as I say, that probably sits more as our store, but it also is kind of a direct sales stepping stone.

So we will actually only charge 10% royalties minus the print cost. So you retain 90% minus the print cost there. So that's another way of earning kind of a higher margin than the likes of Amazon.

Also we pay out the royalties on the 14th of every month as well. So if you were to make a sale in March, we would then pay it out on the 14th of April or the closest working day.

Joanna: Which is quicker than Amazon and some of the others. Just on that, people tend to, including myself, we use Ingram Spark to go to their network of over 40,000 retailers.

So I use KDP print just for Amazon, then I use Ingram Spark for this wider, and then I use you guys for direct and Kickstarter. But as you mentioned, you do have distribution too.

Is there an overlap if people use Ingram and Bookvault?Alex: No. So generally with distribution models, it always is generally who will win the buy box. So it can work with both ways. It's always best to have a primary distributor. So that would kind of be whoever you wish to choose, but then you can also list with other distributors there.

Something exciting that we're working on, it's in a very closed beta at the moment, but it is something we're hoping to launch in the next couple of months, I would say. It is more of an enhanced distribution model.

So currently, we distribute to Amazon retailers and a couple of others in the UK. We're working with Baker and Taylor to cover the US distribution. We are also working with an Indian distributor to cover the Indian market, as well as the Brazilian market, and also the South African market.

So that will start to grow our distribution platform because we've always been generally UK focused. Now we're thinking worldwide and kind of pushing out to those worldwide channels.

Joanna: I love it.

I love that indie authors are growing your business so much faster than the traditional publishers.Alex: Yes. As I say, with traditional, it's always been like, this is our job, and we need to do it. Whereas now we've got the avenues to, as I say, go worldwide.

Joanna: Yes, and there's a lot of energy. I think that's the other thing is there is a lot of good energy. Indie authors are so pleased to be like, “Ooh, you mean I can do foil? That's amazing.”

Alex: I think that's the thing, and that's why I like going to the events so much. When you're talking to people, not only are they giving us ideas as well and kind of helping us steer in the right direction, but we're able to show what can be done.

I think when you go on a podcast and mention about foiling, it's really hard to picture that. Whereas if you see us in person, you can really see those beautiful books.

So we did a talk at the Superstars of Writing, and we have the books all up on show, and I think we have to usher people out of the room in the end because they needed it for the next talk.

Joanna: That's awesome. Also, you mentioned Reedsy earlier around designers maybe doing box sets and things like that and having a sort of referral process.

I think there's a huge gap in the author services market for people helping to build direct sales stores.Is that something that you've mentioned to them? Because people must ask that all the time.

Alex: Yes, I think it's a difficult one because there is the need to, say, if you've not got time to kind of work with someone. But equally, I think with direct sales, it's so important to know your store and to be able to have a steer on it.

So we work with a company called Digital Authors Toolkit. Stuart there, he kind of focuses on Wix and does offer websites there. So if we do have people, we push them in that direction. He's fantastic. He's UK based, and he's great. It is something I think there is a gap for and it needs to be grown on.

Joanna: Well, I think there's a lot of exciting times ahead. Obviously, you and the team go to many of the author conferences, so people can certainly see you there or reach out to the team.

Where can people find Bookvault online?Alex: So online, we've got our website which is bookvault.app. There you can sign up to Bookvault portal, as well as get a quote before creating an account.

We also have our social platforms as well. So we're on the kind of usual ones, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter or X, I guess now, where we kind of run promotions as well as publish articles and things like that.

We're trying to grow the YouTube channel a little bit as well, so that'll provide kind of helpful videos, as I say, that we're working on how to do little things.

Then also, primarily, we're attending a lot of events as well. So we're at 20Books Seville in a couple of weeks’ time, then London Book Fair. We've got an indie author conference in Huntington as well. Inkers Con, NINC, and then Author Nation as well, which we're excited for at the end of the year.

Joanna: Oh, fantastic. Well, I will see you in Seville.

Alex: I'm looking forward to it.

Joanna: Great. Thanks so much for your time, Alex. That was great.

Alex: Thank you very much.

The post How To Create Beautiful Print Books And Sell Direct With Alex Smith From Bookvault first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How can you pick yourself, rather than wait for someone else to pick you? How can you take control of your independent career and bring your creative vision to life? Jeffrey Crane Graham talks about his experience as an indie filmmaker, with lots of tips for indie authors.

In the intro, 6 Types of Submission Comments BookBub Editors Love to See [BookBub]; Author platform is not a requirement to sell your novel or children’s book [Jane Friedman]; Your Author Business Plan and/or Business for Authors 50% off with discount coupon PLAN on CreativePennBooks.com; Spear of Destiny; Ruby Roe rainbow foil hardcover Kickstarter; Updated Author Blueprint coming soon; I'm interviewed on writing memoir [QWERTY Podcast].

Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital to get started.

Jeffrey Crane Graham is a writer, director, and podcast producer. He wrote and directed the multi-award-winning film Always, Lola, and has also written comedy shorts. He produces and co-hosts The Screenwriting Life podcast.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Choosing yourself, rather than waiting for someone to pick you
• The process of creating a micro-budget feature
• Writing screenplays that are “practically shootable”
• Tips for authors who want to get their books on screen
• Marketing a film in a crowded market
• How the film festival circuit works for indie filmmakers
• Possible uses of AI in the filmmaking process that are not the act of creation

You can find Jeffrey at JeffGrahamDigital.com. You can find Always Lola at AlwaysLolaFilm.com.

Transcript of Interview with Jeffrey Crane GrahamJoanna: Jeffrey Crane Graham is a writer, director, and podcast producer. He wrote and directed the multi-award-winning film Always, Lola, and has also written comedy shorts. He produces and co-hosts The Screenwriting Life podcast. So welcome to the show, Jeff.

Jeffrey: Thanks, Jo. I'm honored to be on the show. As I told you before we went on air, I'm a fan of your podcast. So I am glad to be here.

Joanna: Oh, good. Well, lots to talk about. First up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into screenwriting and film.Jeffrey: So I'm from Cleveland, Ohio. I feel like I got especially interested in writing in middle school, I was writing a lot of short stories. Then I feel like in high school, I got the ambitious idea of like, “I'm going to try to write a novel.” That's something I would still like to do before I die.

I always think of novelists as like real writers, and screenwriters are aspirational novelists. Just because the idea of a novel, I think, is so intimidating.

The idea to first kind of start writing for film and TV—I think most screenwriters can point to a movie that feels pretty definitional for them—I think for me, that would have been Little Miss Sunshine. It was the first movie I watched where I really subconsciously thought, somebody wrote this.

I feel like film culture, especially feature films, are so built around the idea of directors being the author of the movie. Whereas I'm always most interested in who penned the script.

Little Miss Sunshine, I remember watching it and specifically loving the dialogue and the twists with the characters that you learned throughout the journey. I distinctly had the realization that somebody literally wrote words on a page that these actors are saying, and I have to know who that writer is.

Of course, that writer is Michael Arndt, who in such a cool full circle way I got to interview on the show I co-host, The Screenwriting Life. I did my best to maintain professionalism as I told him he was one of my heroes.

Then from there, I just started writing more and more scripts. I ended up optioning a half hour pilot, which kind of got me excited to move to Los Angeles. And here I am now talking about my debut feature film, which is called Always, Lola.

Joanna: A few things I want to follow up on there. First of all, it's so interesting, you talk there about when you notice the writer. I was just thinking about the TV show Succession, which I love.

Jeffrey: It's one of the best of all time.

Joanna: Yes, and the dialogue is so good. It's so cutting. It's the most violent family dialogue, but not in a violent way. You know what I mean?

Jeffrey: Of course, yes.

Joanna: It's one of those shows where I'm, like, wow, these writers are really good. Then the other example I was thinking of recently, we were watching season two of Reacher the TV show. Season one—I don't even know if this is true—but we were like season one had great writing, season two had terrible writing.

Jeffrey: Interesting. It happens.

Joanna: It's interesting because often we don't think about the screenwriter, or the screenwriting team. When you were saying that, it's really the first time I've thought about—

When do you really notice the writer, as opposed to the director?Jeffrey: Well, it is interesting. I'll talk about Succession. I don't know as much about Reacher. It's funny because television is also an interesting one, and I'll get to this, but it's so collaborative that sometimes you're not sure if it's the studio, or the directors, or the showrunner, or someone in that room. That's true of movies as well.

I think with Succession especially, Jesse Armstrong had had such a long career as a comedy writer. I don't know if you're a Peep Show fan…

Joanna: No.

Jeffrey: Great, great show. He co-created that with a writer I admire named Sam Bain.

Since he had worked so long, specifically in more comedy zones, I think Succession was such an interesting synthesis of it's a hilarious show, like you mentioned, and the dialogue is so cutting and brutal. It's also this Shakespearean look at the intensity of family, and legacy, and living up to the impossible standards that your parents set for you.

Interestingly, Jesse Armstrong hired a ton of playwrights for that show. So a lot of the writers room came from acclaimed, under-seen, like West End plays. So because I think playwriting is so dialogue-heavy and Jesse Armstrong has talked about the influence of Shakespeare on his work, maybe that's why the writing especially stands out.

I also think, interestingly, I think when you look at playwriting —

The playwright is usually considered the author of the work. Whereas in screenwriting, sometimes the director is considered the author of the work. I've always kind of objected to that.

Joanna: Yes, that is interesting. So from the big TV shows and the big films, and you describe Always, Lola as a micro-budget feature. So just explain a bit more about that. Like, did you do absolutely everything?

Tell us about the process of getting that done.

Jeffrey: I did a lot of it, I will say. I want to be careful to make sure I'm giving credit to all the departments who helped on the film.

It is interesting with your first feature, so much of it is just kind of pulling the cart yourself and getting it over the finish line.Budgetarily, and I'm happy to talk about this, it's a big part of your show. I would say like 80% of the budget, which for production was somewhere between $20,000 – $30,000, was my own savings, with probably 20% of that coming from producers.

Then once we got into post production there were some additional costs that come up from editing and color correction and sound. So financially, a lot of it is my own investment.

I mean, obviously, I wrote the script. I was a huge part of getting the movie cast. I did write for a number of actors that I already knew who were sort of in development with me before we even decided to put it up on its feet.

For some of the characters, I cast them in a very traditional way. I did it by reaching out to agencies through my production company email that I founded to put the movie together, and I cast that in a traditional way.

I think it's really important to credit my director of photography, a brilliant DP named AJ Young. I think this was his 11th feature. I think like the look and the way the movie is lit, I worked very closely in tandem with him. He has a ton of experience on big budget movies all the way down to these sort of scrappy micro-budget films.

So he really understood how to work with the budget we have to make it look as good as it could. So I will credit him, but in terms of the other departments and post production, most of it was just me.

Joanna: Yes, and that's why I guess we're talking, really, is that you're an indie filmmaker. You've done it on this $20,000 to $30,000, which was your savings, and obviously a lot of your time, and your relationships, and all these things you put into it. So this is a labor of love.

Tell us about the idea behind the film.Like what possessed you to do this?

Jeffrey: Yes, totally. I'll talk from a personal perspective first and then practical perspective second. The story is kind of a feel-good coming-of-age dramedy. A lot of critics have mentioned the movie The Big Chill, which was a big inspiration for me as I was writing.

I love Lawrence Kasdan, and in general, I sort of love 80s hangout ensemble dramedies. Like The Big Chill, or The Breakfast Club, or pretty much anything that John Hughes was doing in the 80s. I think it's harder and harder to find character-driven dramedies. They were so popular, and they've kind of gone away.

So I bring that up because the movie is loosely inspired by the death of my best friend from high school. The movie follows these five best friends who are reuniting on their annual camping trip to mourn the loss of their friend who used to throw that trip. But on this trip, obviously she's not here because she died the year before.

As they kind of talk and discover secrets around her death during the trip, it threatens to not only destroy their friend group, but their memory of her and their understanding of their own mortality. I think it is a really important coming of age moment.

I always say that losing a parent or a grandparent is a very specific kind of grief, but losing a peer, especially as a teenager, is a very different kind of grief. I think most people can point to that first moment they lost someone who was their age. So that's really kind of what the movie is about.

From a practical perspective, it's funny —

I'd written this draft with the intention of really writing and putting together a low-budget, practically shootable film. It was with the idea of either giving it to a producer or sort of pitching it out as something that could be made on a really low budget.

This was all kind of happening as the pandemic was really reaching its peak. Obviously, the pandemic was horrible, but if we wanted to look at one silver lining, I do think it forced a lot of us, especially creatives, to assess why they were really living their life, you know, as things were slowing down for them.

My wife actually looked at me, and she was like, okay, as things have slowed down and we're sort of taking a 30,000-foot view of our own life, we have two options here. One of them is to grow old in a nursing home and be 95 and still talking about the movie we never made. The other option is to just try to figure it out ourselves and see what happens.

Both of those sound really, really hard, but I actually think the regretful one sounds much harder. So we have to make the other hard choice. That was the moment when we decided to kind of go all in.

Joanna: So first of all, I love this phrase, “practically shootable,” because I have written a few screenplays and adapted some of my own work. I did one for a pilot with my Mapwalkers as kind of a feature, and I pitched it to an agent and they said, “Oh, this is like $100 million.”

I was like, okay. He asked if I can write something cheaper and, I guess, more effective.

What does “practically shootable” mean if people want to write screenplays or books that might get adapted?Jeffrey: That's a great question, and I kind of have a two-pronged answer for this, if that's okay. It's funny, a lot of studio-working screenwriters would say that when you approach the page as someone who wants to get into the system and maybe be selling your work or getting staffed on a TV show, you shouldn't be thinking about budget as you approach the page.

Instead, you should just be writing the sample that feels like most true to your voice and version of you as a writer that you can.

But I think there's also another prong that's kind of increasingly important to think about. That is if you plan on producing your own work, especially early in your career, and I think it used to be, sort of like in the old days of Hollywood, that you could build your career on just a sample, and it would get bought and sold, and then you'd be in the system.

More and more, especially for feature film writers, especially writer-directors, their debut is more self-produced. You know, the 90s, I look at filmmakers like Robert Rodriguez and Kevin Smith, and even recently, Lena Dunham, her early work was self-produced on a micro-budget.

There's a filmmaker I like a lot named Cooper Raiff who just won a big award at Sundance a couple years ago. His first feature was self-produced for like 16 grand.

There's a really exciting filmmaker named Emma Seligman. She had a movie come out this year called Bottoms that I think is like one of the best of the year from last year. Her debut feature film, Shiva Baby, is also kind of a masterpiece, and that was self-produced.

So I bring all of that up because it's more and more of a viable way to launch your career as an indie filmmaker to start, which then gets you those meetings and gets you into the system to pitch your more expensive movie.

So when you're thinking about a practically shootable film, you do want to be thinking about budget, and you want to be thinking about what you can actually do to get your film up on its feet and kind of not shoot outside of your means.

So things like limiting your locations. You know, locations are by far one of the most expensive elements of a feature film. It's called a company move when you ask your entire production, cast, crew, wardrobe, craft, food, to move to a new location. Obviously on a production, time is money. So the less you can be moving around, the better.

So I encourage feature filmmakers, especially micro-budget feature filmmakers, to think about these sort of 50k or less movies as their own kind of genre and look at them as a case study.

What are the commonalities? Usually it's a small cast, limited location, not a ton of set pieces, maybe a juicy character-driven theme.

If you're interested in this, I actually do teach a five-part course on what it means to write, produce, edit, and distribute a micro-budget film. I've become obsessive about this. So I'll include the link to that class in the description below if you're interested in taking it.

Joanna: Oh, great. We can add that in at the end.

What's funny is after I did pitch this expensive thing, I did end up writing a horror micro-budget. So I wrote a novella, it's called Catacomb, and I also wrote the screenplay alongside it. I made a pitch pack and all of this, and then I haven't done anything at all with it.

I guess I'm scared. I have booked a place at the PitchFest in a couple of months, but I am a little scared about doing it.

What are your thoughts for authors who want to get their books on screen but don't necessarily want to adapt them themselves?Jeffrey: I totally understand that screenwriting is a totally different medium and craft than novel writing. Similarly, like the idea of adapting my debut feature into a novel is uninteresting to me, to be totally honest. So I understand that.

First of all, I think you're smart to be looking at horror as a practical way to put a micro-budget film up on its feet. They're usually the most lucrative when it comes to these low budgets. Of course, the two most famous versions of micro-budget feature films are The Blair Witch Project and Paranormal Activity.

So I think what I would do is look for other super low budget films that might feel similar in tone or look or story to yours and look at who's producing on those. You've got to think, those producers are also at the beginning of their career, and they want to keep their train on the track as well.

So looking at those names, going to IMDb, or IMDb Pro especially, and see if you can find a contact or way to reach out. Then just sending a little email over and saying, “I love your work.” First of all, flattery is one of the most important ways to make a good connection with someone.

Be honest about what you loved about their material, and let them know, “Hey, I'm a novelist. I have this IP. It's well reviewed, and I think it could make a great feature. Would you ever want to get a coffee and just talk about it?”

I would say 99% of the time, these upcoming producers will at least take the meeting because you've got to remember, their job is to get work made and they want to keep their name on projects. So it's a mutually beneficial relationship.

I think it's so easy to think about producers as the bad guys or like the scary sort of dark arts element of film production, but they are creatives too. Remember, they got into this business because they're in love with storytelling in a different way. So reach out, you never know what will happen.

Joanna: It's interesting you say that because there's also a lot of—I say horror again—but horror stories amongst the author community. There's a book called Hollywood Vs. The Author, where there are stories of authors who've done this. You know, they've sent things in, and then films have been made. There are court cases, and you must be careful of contracts because you might get ripped off.

I feel like on the one hand, there's a lot of hope, which means there are a lot of rip off things.

Then there's also a lot of fear around what could happen in a bad way. Or even, I guess people look at films that are made of books that they love, and they say, “Oh, it was terrible. It ruined everything.”

Where's the balance between Hollywood being full of sharks and the hope of making something?

Jeffrey: It's hard. I don't want to sound like a pessimist on the show, but I think it is an interesting moment in terms of TV and film because the industry at large is not quite as lucrative as it used to be.

Everyone, from indie filmmakers to big studios, are trying to figure out how they can continue to keep the business as financially viable as they can.

Streaming has been good in a lot of ways, and it's created a lot of jobs for people, but the big lesson over the last 10 years is that it's not profitable. So something needs to change.

I think I say all that because I think like the big $500,000 spec script sale for a first-time writer, it's not really happening anymore. So I think like there is an element of adjusting your expectations and knowing that for your first film, especially, you might not be doing it as much for the big paycheck.

It's more for the chance to really launch your career, get your work and your voice up on screen, and use that as a chance to start doing bigger and bigger things. There are some red flags, however, that I would really look out for.

One of them is if a producer is asking you to pay them to take your work out. That's a no, no, no. A producer is invested and on your team. So both of you are looking to benefit and profit from the idea of your work.

That should be the producer is expecting to make money later down the road. When the movie gets sold, there will be a writer deal and a producer deal, and both of you will benefit from that. The producer should not benefit until someone is paying both of you, if that makes sense. So that's a big red flag.

Also, keep the rights.

If a producer is asking him for like 5% of the rights of the material or whatever, that's also a no go. Whatever it takes, hold onto those rights.Other than that, I think $1 option agreement, where a producer will pay you $1 to get the right to go shop it around. That's not super uncommon.

If you're an unknown, I'd say just be limited about the number of time on that option. Maybe it's six months, maybe it's a year, whatever, but that's not necessarily fishy when it comes to early in your career.

Joanna: Yes, it's interesting. You mentioned that things are not as they used to be. It's the same in traditional publishing. The market is very crowded for all of us as creatives. So given that you're an indie filmmaker—

How are you reaching film lovers in such a crowded market? What have you done in terms of marketing?Jeffrey: You know, of course, podcasts! I'm grateful to be here with you now.

I do hope in your audience that there are some interested aspiring filmmakers. I think you'll like the movie, but it's also worth checking out as a case study to see what you can do for $30,000. As I mentioned, I think it's important to be studying this if you want to do it yourself.

This is a question that indie filmmakers are asking, but this is also a question that big studios are asking.

Michael Mann released a movie this year called Ferrari. Of course, he's one of the highest grossing directors of all time, and the movie is just not doing well. It's interesting, because it's the kind of movie that would be like guaranteed gangbusters in the 90s.

So I think we're all competing for attention. I think a lot of people are using their free time and their leisure time to be on social media.

So I think the best way to get people interested in your work is to try to make organic human connections and build a community of your own.I'm sure, Jo, a ton of your listeners are also invested in your work. I'm lucky I have the same thing. The podcast I do has a decent following, and a lot of those folks have checked out the movie.

Festivals were super helpful. You're meeting filmmakers there. Winning awards at those festivals was nice because that gave us some leverage to promote. I think trying to make niche connections and find communities to promote your work is going to be a helpful way to get it out there.

Joanna: So you mentioned there, winning awards at festivals, like it's just something that you just add to a checklist. So did you aim for that?

Did you do things specifically for specific awards? Then did you just enter them?Or like what is the festival thing for film?

Jeffrey: The festival circuit. Well, I guess to rewind a little bit, this whole thing has been such a process of discovery. Going into the movie, we didn't have any intentions of necessarily selling it.

I think Laura and I decided, we were willing to take a financial risk just on the opportunity to get this work up on its feet and give me the chance to direct in the same way that film school would do for probably far more money.

So really from the start, we thought like worst case scenario this will be 30k as a chance to get on set, get experience directing and have a feature film. Whether or not it sells, at least I'll have a screener link that I can send it producers.

So everything else, the festival circuit, and the awards, and the sale, and the deal have all been gravy. In terms of festivals, I certainly was not aiming for any kind of award. All the awards that we've won have been like a really pleasant surprise.

Festivals are an interesting one because there's kind of three tiers of film festivals. There's the top tier, which are also markets, where films will actually get sold at those festivals.

So I know you're international, but for Americans, it would be like Sundance, obviously, the Tribeca Film Festival, the Toronto International Film Festival and Telluride, maybe South by Southwest.

Those are kind of the only five sort of North American festivals where deals will actually be made. I think in Europe, it would be like Cannes, obviously, and then maybe Berlin and Venice. Besides those three, you're not going to see a lot of film festivals where sales are actually happening at those festivals.

So then there's another tier of festivals that are more like second tier film festivals. Those are really valuable for my type of movie where you don't have any big names. You might be able to find independent agents there or other sort of low-level distributors that you can at least get meetings with.

Those are great way to meet people and generate some momentum and heat and press around your movie to kind of create a different sort of market than you would be at those top tier film festivals.

The general strategy is to apply to those top tier film festivals first. That's kind of your lottery ticket, it's unlikely, but you never know. The reason why you want to apply to those first and wait it out is because once you've debuted at a film festival, the likelihood of getting into another film festival becomes far less.

You know, because Sundance wants to be the festival to premiere your film. So you want to reserve your premiere status for the festival that you really want to premiere at. So you want to aim for those top tier festivals first.

Joanna: And the relationship building—

Were you going along to these festivals for years beforehand, seeing how it's all done?I feel like it's quite similar to book awards or conventions. You need to know how things are done, you can't just enter stuff into random things.

Jeffrey: You know, I think somewhat regretfully, I wasn't really going to film festivals before this feature. I think had I been, I would have had a little bit more knowledge as to how to play the game.

I set a lot of meetings with filmmakers who had done this already in a very similar model and just grabbed coffee with them to sort of learn what advice they would give me.

I think it's all about knowing your movie. This is I'm sure true for independent novelists as well, but it's like, know what you've made, know your voice, and know your market.

Then look for film festivals that are catering to a similar sort of vibe and work within those parameters. Write a cover letter as you're planning these festivals and give the festival programmers a reason to program you.

You know, if they're getting 200,000 submissions, why would it be advantageous for them to program you, specifically?

Maybe you're local and you know people that would come to the movie, maybe you look at other movies they programmed in the past and how your movie would slate well into their programs. So do the work for them and make it easier for them to program your film.

Joanna: I guess a lot of us in the indie author community, we use more algorithmic marketing around keywords and metadata, and we do paid ads and all of this. So did you consider any of that at all? Or—

Has it all been sort of human-based marketing?Jeffrey: I mean, on my end, it's mostly been like the human-to-human connection. I will say, even though we're an independent film, we did sell to a distributor.

They have a marketing budget that they need to recoup before we start earning on the film, besides the upfront payment that we got for selling the movie to them.

So they have X amount of dollars that they've spent on marketing. I don't exactly know where that money went. I have a meeting with them when we get our first quarterly and they're going to talk through how they marketed the movie. I do think they may have done a targeted ad campaign on Facebook when we first were released on VOD.

I'd say most of the engagement and viewing we've gotten have been through word of mouth. We did get a great Rotten Tomatoes score when we first debuted which I think it's been very helpful. There are a number of people who just look for positively reviewed indie films and use that as a chance to check out a movie.

I think we were released at a good time. We got kind of lucky because we released like right after both strikes resolved, so there was an opening for us. We weren't competing with a ton of big studio movies when we first released.

Again, I don't know. I mean, like it'll be interesting to see when we get our first quarterly how we're actually doing. So talk to me in two months, and I'll either be thrilled or beating my head against the wall.

Joanna: Yes, it's interesting. So you mentioned the strikes there. Of course, the Writers Guild of America went on strike, and then also the Actors Guild went on strike. As part of that, that was obviously in negotiations for lots and lots of things, but part of that was AI.

So we're recording this at the beginning of 2024, and the text-to-video stuff is really starting to take off.

What are your thoughts on the use of AI in filmmaking?Whether it's screenwriting or any of the other things? What are your thoughts on using it as a creator, without going into the strike stuff?

Jeffrey: Sure. I think I would be similar to where the guild stands. There's a writer I like a lot named John August who has a great screenwriting podcast, and he talks about AI a lot.

I don't think we should just like flat out say AI is not a useful tool for creatives. I know a lot of showrunners who will type something dumb in AI just to get the room talking, or generate brainstorming ideas, to then let creative people actually fuel their own work and write their material.

I think what gets very dangerous is when we're asking machines to be writing drafts of something. I think as a brainstorming tool or a research tool, it's very valuable. I think when we start asking robots to start making art, I get a little scared.

It's funny, I was talking to my brother-in-law about this, and he was like, “Why are we afraid of this? Like technology has been great for creatives. Look at the printing press. Everyone was so afraid when that came out, and it's only been great.”

But the difference to me is that the printing press was a tool that helps work/art created by people get into the hands of more people. Something like the internet has been great to reach people and send your work out.

This is the first time in human history that we're asking the question, should robots be the ones making the art rather than replicating or distributing the art? I feel very strongly that once we give over the sort of beautiful beacon of making and creativity over to machines, we're in deep trouble.

Joanna: I say it's a continuum.

If you have 1% to 100% computer-generated, everyone's going to sit somewhere on that curve.We all use lots of things online, in general, a lot of which is now powered by AI.

There's a big difference between click a button and output a screenplay, to using it for like I just did earlier. “Here's a picture of a door. Give me 10 ideas for what might happen when a theology professor steps through this door. Just give me some ideas around this for the story.”

Now, some of that was completely crazy, and some of it was interesting enough to spark other ideas for me. So I think there's a creative spark in our creative process, in a human creative process, versus the mass output, which is not something either of us are advocating. [For my approach, see The AI-Assisted Artisan Author.]

Jeffrey: I totally agree. I think the other important thing is a lot of people will say like, “Well, you know, people won't just settle for AI-generated art,” but I would slightly push back on that. I think they would, unfortunately. I think people's tastes adapt to the work that's being produced and made for them.

Without being specific, I do think there are movies and TV shows that, in essence, could be AI-generated that people really like because that's sort of the cultural bar that people are setting for an audience. I do think it's the job of creatives and producers to be the tastemakers that sort of fuel cultural conversation.

So I would like to be optimistic enough that people won't settle for crap if AI is making it, but unfortunately, I'm not optimistic enough to believe that. I think if you look at people's taste, it already has been lowered by the tastemakers of popular art today. So I don't want to get too pretentious about this, but I do think people will settle for what's made for them, and it's our job to try to make good things.

Joanna: Yes, although I would also say I think there's room for different things. So for example, in the AI audiobook narration space. I listen to a lot of audio, and I listen to it on like 1.5x – 1.7x. I listen to a lot of mostly nonfiction. Every human narrator sounds like a robot at 1.7 speed! It really doesn't matter, I just want the information.

AI narration means that people can have audiobooks, audio content, in every language, every dialect, that we just can't have otherwise. I guess the other interesting thing would be McDonald's versus a nice restaurant that you go to, and sometimes you need a McDonald's, right?

Jeffrey: That's true. That's true. I would just love to believe, though, that like McDonald's food, there is still an element of human thought behind it. There are executives at McDonald's who are still invested in making something delicious with a human brain behind it.

I do agree. I mean, like, I love my guilty pleasure TV just as much as I love Succession.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. So it is interesting.

So that's the screenwriting, but as a filmmaker, if you're looking at your career decades ahead, I mean, it's got to be like 100% likely you're going to be using some kind of AI in your production. Whether it's special effects, or whether it's bit part actors, or music, or I don't know.

How do you think other parts of AI could be used in the filmmaking process?Jeffrey: It's interesting. I will say the type of work I write and am interested in tends to be kind of very low concept, human driven stuff, at least right now. So it's not like the material I write or my voice as a writer pushes towards like big, special effects type of set pieces.

I think you're right. It's hard because we're taking, especially the guild's, are taking all of this information and data like step by step. So it's hard for me to answer that, but I want to be someone who is curious and open minded about it. I do think like the shutdown-the-conversation mentality is a little naive.

Joanna: Yes, I mean, obviously those strikes are now over, and they got a contract through. It allows the use of AI tools, but not to credit AI as a writer. So as in, they can use it in the ways that we've talked about around ideas.

I'll tell you what I did use it for. I've tried Final Draft, and I find it really not intuitive as someone who doesn't write in screenplays first. So I was writing out, kind of turning each scene into just plain texts, and then I would put it into ChatGPT and say, “Can you reformat this for screenplay format?“

Jeffrey: Oh, that's fascinating. I'd love to try that.

Joanna: Then I would put that into Final Draft. So it just helped me with a bit of that. It's like a technical thing that I don't want to spend the time learning Final Draft. You know what I mean?

Jeffrey: As a tool, I understand it. It's like, at a certain point, if you're doing your own research versus an aggregator doing that research for you, what is the big difference? I think it's just being thoughtful about how it's being executed.

Again, the fundamental question in my opinion—

Is this a moment when art or creativity is being handed to a machine?Like is what I consider the sacred act of creation, is that being handed over to a robot?

It's so interesting to me, because I will say, Hollywood has a long history of telling stories about giving too much power to machines, and I can't think of a single one where the climax of the movie is, “I'm so glad we all let the robots win here.”

Joanna: Well, I've got one for you, The Creator. Have you seen it yet?

Jeffrey: No, no. I've heard it's an interesting one, but I have not seen it yet.

Joanna: It is excellent. It was so funny, because I was watching it, and it feels almost like a big budget American movie. Then at one point, I turned to my husband, and I was like, “I don't think this is American, because of…” Well, I'm not going to spoil it for you, but I was watching it, and I was like, goodness me, this is not an American movie.

It is not. The producer, screenwriter, director, whatever he is, is British. So that was really interesting for me, because you mentioned there, like obviously the Hollywood big budget movies. Terminator, blah, blah, blah, but they're all pretty much American. Whereas I think there are different views by different people.

The Creator is an excellent, excellent film. It's like one of the best films that I've seen in ages, because it's so nuanced and interesting around what the future of AI and robotics could be. So I'm just going to encourage you and other people to watch that.

Jeffrey: Okay, I'll add it to my list right now. Maybe I'll watch it tonight.

Joanna: Yes, although we said there's so much to watch in the world. It's definitely, in terms of the AI thing, it offers an alternative view.

So we're almost out of time, but I did want to cast your mind forward. This is your debut micro-budget feature.

What are your plans? How does a career progress from there?Jeffrey: It's been really helpful for me to have made and sold a film. Obviously, like the big picture thing is that when I set meetings with producers or I'm talking to management, I have a tangible product that shows that I understand the mechanics of feature filmmaking in a way that, you know, the evidence can't lie.

I did it, and I sold it, and it's on Apple, and you can watch it now. There is an element of grit that comes with having done that that gives you a level of credibility when it comes to the next movie, and building your career, and being taken seriously as someone in the business.

Of course, there's also the small stuff too. Like, when we sold the movie, we got a hit in Deadline, which is a major publication that talks about Hollywood news.

Then I had a couple folks reach out to me that were like, “Hey, I saw you in Deadline this week.” So it's just like a tangible level up that has opened a lot of doors for me as I'm continuing to kind of set meetings and really pitch on the next one.

So it's, again, I think in like the 90s, it would be selling your feature script as like the calling card for who you are as a writer. I do feel increasingly, now, it is self-producing your debut feature that serves as your calling card.

So I think just the credibility that comes with having done it, and now that it's up on platforms and has been written about in the trades, it's at least evidence that I'm not too much of a fraud, if that makes sense.

Joanna: Is your goal to work with bigger and bigger budgets, bigger and bigger casts?

Or do you want to stay making these smaller, more people-focused movies that you mentioned?Jeffrey: You know, it's funny. I have two things I'm kind of working on right now.

One of them is like a bigger budget, maybe like $20 to $30 million dollar kind of big dumb cruise ship comedy. The other one I'm working on is like similarly a small character and coming of age movie that I think could be made for far less.

So I think it's smart for filmmakers to have multiple projects in their cooker that sort of serve different lanes or markets. I think most importantly, still really stay true to the voice and sort of essence of who that writer is.

It's important as you're taking meetings to be able to tell a cogent story about who you are as a writer and what kind of stuff you write, so that producers can understand how you would slot as they go to their bosses and pitch the idea of whatever you're making.

Especially in Hollywood —

I think so much of finding your lane as a writer is about telling the story of who you are as a writer. That almost feels as important as your work.If I'm thinking about someone whose career I really admire, I love Nicole Holofcener. She just came out with a movie this year with Julia Louis-Dreyfus called You Hurt My Feelings. I love The Land of Steady Habits.

She's someone who writes and directs a lot of her own independent features that are really small, but she also writes on big studio movies to kind of come in and rewrite, or even if she's not directing, she is also in the studio system. So I think she has a really interesting career. I would love to think that maybe I could get there one day too.

Joanna: Fantastic.

Tell us where people can find you, and also your film course that you mentioned, and of course, Always, Lola.Jeffrey: Totally, yes. Thanks so much. To connect with me, the best place is probably just to head to Instagram. You can find me there at Jeffrey Crane Graham. Totally DM me there if you want to connect. I am happy to answer questions, and I love connecting with other micro-budget filmmakers. So if you have questions, totally come reach out to me there.

Then you can go to my website, which is JeffGrahamDigital.com. There's contact information there as well.

That's also where you'll find my film course. It's a five-part class all about micro-budget filmmaking, from writing all the way through sales, distribution, and finding an agent. I even have neutralized agreements and contracts that will serve as a great springboard for you as you jump into pre-production. So that's on my website.

Joanna: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Jeff. That was great.

Jeffrey: Oh, this was so much fun. I mentioned it, but I'm a big fan of your show, so I'm honored to be a part of it.

The post Writing And Producing A Micro-Budget Film With Jeffrey Crane Graham first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How do you find the story behind all your stories? Who are you at the heart of your books? Isabelle Knight talks about the importance of author brand in an age of limitless content, and gives tips on how to discover yours.

In the intro, 20 new miniature books added to Queen Mary’s Dollhouse [BBC]; Amazon announced Rufus, a new generative AI-powered conversational shopping experience; How generative AI will impact book discoverability; Amazon AI Ready Initiative free AI training; NY Times is hiring for their own AI initiatives [The Verge]; “There’s nothing wrong with the tech, but it has to be legal and licensed.” [Hollywood Reporter]; Tools & Strategies you must use to survive the 2024 revolution [Marketing Against the Grain].

Plus, I recommend Forever Strong by Dr Gabrielle Lyon; my Kickstarter pre-launch page is up for Spear of Destiny; Vienna, Nuremberg, and Cologne: My Five days Research Trip notes and pictures.

Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna

You can also support the show and join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Isabelle Knight is a professional publicist, speaker and PR & brand mentor to authors and business founders. She is also adjunct professor in MA, PR & Advertising at the American International University of London.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

• Brand and it's importance in the age of AI
• Is human connection more important than content?
• How to draw an emotional connection with your unique story
• Creating and controlling your author brand story
• Dealing with the fear of vulnerability
• Tips for pivoting your author story
• At what stage could a publicist be helpful for an indie author?

You can find Isabelle at BuildYourBrandWithPR.com.

Transcript of Interview with Isabelle KnightJoanna: Isabelle Knight is a professional publicist, speaker and PR & brand mentor to authors and business founders. She is also adjunct professor in MA, PR & Advertising at the American International University of London. So welcome to the show, Isabelle.

Isabelle: Thank you very much, Jo. It's pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

Joanna: I'm excited to talk about this topic. Before we get into it—

Tell us a bit more about you and your background in the publishing industry.Isabelle: So my background is a publicist, the bulk of my career was in film. So I was a film publicist for a long time. Then I moved into TV, and this was film production and TV production as well.

So I was a publicist who goes on set and works with the actors and the directors and the writers and that kind of thing, as well as publicizing releases of films and TV shows.

Through that time, I also worked on some book releases with authors, but particularly towards the end of my kind of traditional publicist career, I worked with JK Rowling and the production team that produced the Strike series of books for TV. So it wasn't JK Rowling, it was JK Rowling writing as Robert Galbraith.

So I was on that for a few years, which was all very exciting. Then the pandemic hits and everything kind of changed, in terms of mostly the way that publicists were able to work and that productions were able to work.

So I took my business online. So now I do everything online. I started working with—because I'd come from the creative industries—I was working with people who are writing books. So this was kind of business owners, but then also, fiction writers.

I discovered that lots of people were writing books but didn't have any idea of how to bring those books to a readership or to find an audience and grow an audience, and perhaps actually become known as authors and sell books.I'd spent a long time, 20 years or so, working with people to essentially make them famous and make their creative output famous.

So I thought, well, loads of these people just don't have any of the kinds of resources and tools and knowledge that as a publicist working in those big industry, that you kind of start to take it for granted that people know what to do when it comes to promoting themselves.

Of course, I quickly realized that many people don't know what to do. So now, rather than doing people's PR, or publicity for them, which, you know, for most indie and self-published authors is a very expensive thing to do.

What I do now is I mentor, and essentially teach, authors how to go about building their brand, promoting themselves, creating a name for themselves, and creating a readership, a fan base, growing that readership, and selling some books.

So that's what I now concentrate on doing, and I absolutely love working with authors. It's mostly indie and self-published authors, but also small press authors. It's basically any author that finds themselves having to essentially do most of their own marketing and promotion.

Joanna: Well, that's definitely most of the listeners. That's great. So you mentioned the word “brand” there. I feel like it's so difficult to know, what is an author brand anyway? So maybe you could get a bit into that. Tell us—

What is a brand? Why is it so important, perhaps even more in this age of AI?Isabelle: Yes, absolutely.

So because I'm a publicist, I come at this from this angle. So just imagine this scenario: if I was going to put you in front of a journalist tomorrow and they were going to ask you about being an author, and they were going to ask you about your books, what they really want to know is—and this kind of extends to what your reader wants to know—is why should they be interested in the books that you have written?

So your brand goes much deeper than what is the book, or what are the books, what are they about, what's the genre, what are the tropes that you're using?

It goes much further than that, into who are you as an author and what is it that you have to say, as an author, that is going to give us, the readers, something to care about? Because we've got to care about this enough that we're going to give your book a shot.

Now that we're all surrounded by content so much all of the time in our age of social media, and increasingly in our age of AI, we're bombarded constantly with messages. In the book world, as it gets busier and busier and self-publishing and indie publishing gets busier, which is very exciting, but also makes it even harder now for authors to stand out in that kind of busyness and noise.

So we have to find the thing that makes the author unique.

The way we do that is by looking at what I call the author brand story, which I know sounds quite terrifying to authors when they're first coming into this. If we kind of set aside the word “brand” for the moment, and we just look at, well, —

What is it about the author that makes them unique? Why are they writing? What are they writing?So for example, if you're a fiction author and writing romance, or you might be writing fantasy or science fiction, why are you writing in that genre? What is it that is important to you about it? What messages do you want the reader to take away? What do you want them to remember about the book?

So with a journalist, they're going to be asking, why do you write? That would probably be the first question. Or, what made you become an author? So it's thinking about that, and it's thinking through what you can say about yourself as an author.

So most people become authors because they're emotionally led to do it. The motivation tends to be emotional when we're writing and the themes that we're writing about. So what are the things that drew you to those themes? What are the things that led you to write what you're writing?

Joanna: So many things there. I've been writing notes to come back on.

So you talk there about how we have so much content all the time, and that the person on the other end, whether they're a journalist or a reader, needs to know who you are as an author and what the emotional connection is between you in some way.

So I feel like for the last decade, we have focused much more on content. So you said content, books being content, even though it's not a very romantic word.

Are we now at a point where human connection is more important than just ‘content?'Or has it actually always been that way?

Isabelle: I think human connection has always been important, but I think we're in a place now, obviously, with AI making it so much easier to produce content, and content that looks like so many other kinds of content. I think this is the point, you have lots and lots of content that essentially is all the same.

So if we've got 10 romance novels all lined up together, and they're all dealing with similar kinds of tropes, and they've all got the hero and the heroine or whatever's going on in the novels. So if you sit and tell a reader, “Which of these 10 books should you read? Well, this one's about this, this one's about this,” that reader will probably get quite bored quite quickly listening to what all these books are about.

If we can tell them something about what the book means emotionally to the author, so if they say, “Well, I was actually led to write this book because I've been through something similar myself,” or, “I'm really interested in exploring how women are treated by their lovers.”

If we make it a more compelling story on that human emotional level, then that suddenly becomes more interesting to the reader, and they can start to engage with it on their own personal human level.

This is really the thing that AI—and I think I've said on social media recently that it can't do this yet, and maybe that's another conversation about whether AI will ever be able to do this—but to replicate that unique human emotion.

It's slightly different for everyone. Everyone has their own unique story. We've all arrived at what we're doing from different places. We all have different experiences. But the human emotions that we feel are often quite universal. You know, lots of other people will have also felt those emotions. So it's—

How do we draw that emotional connection by telling our unique story? That's the thing that I think AI, you know, this is where humans have the edge over computers.

Joanna: I totally agree. You can certainly generate books to market, or generate art or whatever you want to do, if not exactly, then very soon. As you say, what you can't do is put that emotional reason behind it.

This is where I'd like to get into something a bit more practical because I've been thinking about this. So with nonfiction, I feel it's much easier. So I wrote a book Pilgrimage, it's a kind of midlife travel memoir. It is about pilgrimage. I mean it's got religious elements and menopause elements. These are things that humans go through.

So with nonfiction, it seems easier, but with fiction, I do an Author's Note at the end of all my books.

In every single book I have, sometimes a long, sometimes short, reasons why I wrote the book and the personal side of writing, my research process, all of that.

I was wondering about trying to turn those author's notes into something, I don't know, me talking about them on a video, doing another podcast on it, I don't know. I'm starting to feel like, for my fiction, it's hard to do this. So what do you think?

What are some of your practical ideas for bringing that emotion and that personality behind fiction, in particular?Isabelle: Yes, and fiction is harder. You're right. With nonfiction we can quite often construct the story behind it very well. Fiction is harder, and therefore it can be juicier as well. It can be more interesting for someone like me working with authors to do this.

So the first thing to say is, it is difficult to do this for yourself. To see your emotionally led brand story, author story, objectively is hard to do because we're so close to it. To start thinking through this, it's looking through what are the themes.

So, often the themes that mean a lot to you personally tend to come out in our writing, in our fiction, as the themes that we're keen to explore in the fiction. So when I do this work with authors, what I'm doing is looking for the threads that kind of tie the author's passions/motivations, and we'll see that reflected in the writing. So it's kind of trying to tie all of that together.

Joanna: So if we can identify that, how can we communicate that to readers in a more scalable manner? Because, I mean, obviously, like we're doing a podcast, this is a one-to-one. We can get into the backstory, as I do on this show. For many authors who are trying to scale their marketing—

What are some of the ways they can portray this more personal and emotional side in a scalable manner?Isabelle: So when we've cracked what are the big themes that you're exploring on a personal level and also in your writing, then you can start to use those themes to attract your readers and use that in your marketing. So you can use it in your social media.

Most of the time, when authors do this work with me, they'll put their story on their website. So when we see the “About the Author,” we're seeing something that is much less generic than, “The author enjoys yachting in their spare time and has three kids.” You know, the kind of bios that you see a lot of. They're telling us something about them and why they write.

So they'll start that on their website, and then often they'll start to weave that into their social media. What happens is, it gives the author so much more confidence, first of all, to market themselves, because they feel like they know what they want to say. They feel like they’ve found the thing that is going to tie them to their potential readers.

What that also does is it then shows you, kind of pinpoints, who your potential reader is really going to be. I say to authors, right, step one is figure out what are we going to say about you as the author. Step two is who are we going to say it to, i.e., who do we want to attract? Who is our reader?

People say to me, “Oh, but my reader is just everyone that enjoys fantasy, or everyone that enjoys YA.” I encourage authors to get more specific about who their reader actually is, you know, the reader who is going to resonate with the big themes that they've pinpointed in their brand story.

So once we've got that and we're much more confident in who do we want to attract, which readers do we want to speak to, then the author can start to weave that into their social media. Whenever they're talking on a podcast, or if they're doing an interview, if they're writing an article, all of these things can kind of form the foundation of what they want to say.

Joanna: It's really interesting. Can we explore the word ‘theme' a little more? Because, of course, as fiction writers, the word theme can mean different things. So I guess just to be specific to me, because you're on my show.

So in my fiction as J.F. Penn, pretty much every single one of my books has something that is religious. Although I'm not a Christian, everything resonates with religious history, religious places, religious myth, the supernatural, in the way that it falls towards the religious side as opposed to like witches and ghosts and things.

So that's something that is an underlying theme in all of my fiction writing. So is that what you mean by theme? Or should it be a more emotional element, like often my books are about sisters?

Isabelle: Yes. So imagine we're doing an author brand story session then. It's just the two of us.

Joanna: Just the two of us. No one is listening!

Isabelle: So I would say to you, okay, well, that's really interesting about the religious myth and the supernatural. So I would be trying to find out, so where does that come from? Where does the kind of fascination with those things come from?

So you mentioned sisters. So that, again, is an intriguing theme.

What is it about sisters? Is it about the relationships between sisters? Is that somehow then tied into the themes of the supernatural, the religious myth?

So I'm always saying to authors, but you know, why?

Tell me why that's important, and then, why is that important? So that we get right underneath the skin of it.Often this brings stuff up for people that they hadn't ever kind of articulated ever, sometimes not even to themselves. They'll say to me, “Oh, that's always been there. It's like a huge kind of thing that is so, so important to me. It's so integral to who I am and what I'm writing.”

Joanna: That's interesting. My last nonfiction book was called Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words, and that's actually the process that one gets into in terms of writing the shadow is these deeper side of things you might not have really known about consciously, but that affects everything you do.

So it's very interesting that you're going down to such a deep level for people. I feel like —

So much of book marketing is on the surface. What we've concentrated on a lot in the indie community has been keywords, and categories, and ad copy, and cover design as well.Cover design is obviously really important, but what you're talking about there is super, super personal. I guess I'm still interested in how we turn that into marketing.

So let's say, just briefly, I write about sisters. I'm the eldest of five kids, but my dad had a second marriage and my two sisters were a lot younger than me, so over a decade younger than me. So I always felt very scared for them and wanted to protect them.

So in my books, my characters often protect their sisters, as I always wanted to do when I was a teenager. You know, they were born when I was in puberty, so it's like an emotional time. That story is not in any of my fiction, even though there are so many sisters and that kind of thing. So how do I turn that example into practical marketing?

Isabelle: Well, I mean, first of all, that's a great story. I can't believe it's not in any of your fiction.

So how do we get it from this kind of very deeply personal place? The way I do this, with authors is I say, right, the first kind of iteration is the version that you wouldn't even share. You know, you might share it with your cat, but that's about it.

We're turning it from something that's deeply personal, it's filled with very personal details that you might not want your entire readership to know about, and we kind of morph that into a version where we're really concentrating on, like I said earlier, the emotional themes that other people are going to resonate with.

They don't necessarily need to know all of your personal details in order to understand it. So what I would focus on there is, you know, we're writing about protecting vulnerabilities, from what you said.

It's perhaps feelings of responsibility for those who are vulnerable, but perhaps also remembering your own vulnerabilities. In a way, you're protecting yourself by protecting others who you love who are also vulnerable. So we could go there with it.

So when we start talking about that, then other people say, “Oh, yes. I can resonate with that. I can connect with that.” So we can start to weave that into our marketing.

We don't have to give the whole personal backstory every time. You know, these books are exploring vulnerability and how we protect ourselves and our loved ones from vulnerability.

Joanna: It's interesting. I mean, I primarily write thrillers, and most thrillers actually are about saving the world from some big threat. So that's a sort of blown-up version of protecting. I say blown up, I explode a lot of things in my books.

I mean, this sort of protecting the world, protecting the family, protecting my sisters, that kind of thing. It's interesting to think about it on a bigger level.

I do want to come back to what you mentioned there, that there are several layers of the process. There's the sort of very personal one that you might just share with your cat.

You also used the word, I wrote it down, you used the word “juicier” earlier. Like, oh, that's kind of juicy information. That as a publicist, you might go, oh, let's follow that story, what's really behind there?

I feel like that's a real journalism thing. I've got some friends who are journalists, so they do that too.

The thing is, at one point I did get on TV, and I was in papers and magazines and things, and I was very uncomfortable with the whole thing. I feel like, especially these days with a lot of outrage, a lot of hate online, there is this fear of being attacked by the press, or on social media, or getting some kind of public backlash over something even if we didn't mean it.

We're afraid of that juiciness. We're afraid of putting that stuff into the world for fear of being hurt or our career being destroyed.

How do you address that fear of being publicly exposed?Isabelle: Yes, and this is a really, really good point. It's an excellent question. Yes, that word juicy, it's misleading, really, because I agree with you.

What I'm not doing is I'm not trying to put people into situations where they are vulnerable, where they feel exposed, and they feel like they are opening themselves up in a way when they can't protect themselves from potential judgment or being attacked online, or whatever it is.

So what I'm not doing is looking for what I call the kind of cheap headlines. I mean, PR, sometimes deservedly, has this reputation of being that we're just looking for the easy headline, we're looking for the salacious gossip, we're looking for the juicy story that we can exploit.

What I'm doing is showing authors how to do the opposite of that, which is by taking control of your own author story. So starting with the personal level and then building it up into something where you get to decide what you share and what you don't share. That's really, really crucial.

You're not just creating your story, but you're curating it as well. So you decide that bit is going in, that bit is not going in. I will say, the story police are never going to come by and say, ‘Oh, but you didn't tell us about that,” because what you choose not to share, you don't share it, and people aren't going to know about that.

You get to control your story, and that gives people the confidence to then go out and market themselves because they've got a handle on their story. They know what it is that they want to say. So we know the compelling piece that we want to give to potential readers.

We also know that we don't have to share personal details. We don't have to be vulnerable if we've decided that's not something we're going to share.

So again, going back to that example, that if I put an author in front of a journalist, and the journalist will start asking lots of questions, going, “Why is that important to you? Where does that come from?”

So if you've already done that work yourself of deciding this is what I'm saying about myself as an author, then you have that story ready.

Joanna: Yes, it's like thinking about it in advance. I think for a lot of people—

It's things that have come back from the past and things that have been taken out of context. So things you might not have thought about, or even you shouldn't need to think about.

So it's like, even if we control the story, then people take us out of context, or they take things in our book. I've even had people email me lines from my novels that characters have said, and say, “You must think this. You are X about X.” No need to go into details.

I've been doing this for many years now, so I'm kind of used to it, but there are times when it's like, seriously, this is not good.

So even if I curate one part of my story, it doesn't stop people coming in other ways. So I guess, how do we deal with that? I guess if we want to be seen, if we want people to buy our books—which we do—

Is this just part of the game that we have to deal with?Isabelle: This is the whole idea of having a brand. It's deciding how you're presenting yourself, what is it that you're showing of yourself. It doesn't mean that you're showing the whole of yourself, it's deciding which pieces of you, what version of you, is the public facing you.

Like you just described, when you might get backlash and criticism from things that, you know, even that you've said or written years before, if you're sure of your brand story, you can always come back to that and use that to respond to any criticism that you get.

Again, this is where working with a publicist at times like that can also be helpful as well, to figure out how to respond to things like that.

But if you've decided in your brand story, all of the work that you put out as an author, and deciding how you talk about it, and how it relates back to the author brand story that you've decided that you've written, then it's much easier to respond to those kinds of criticisms.

Rather than it feeling like you're on the backfoot or feeling like somebody has exposed something that you weren't prepared for, you didn't know how to respond to.

That is tricky if that is happening, and say it's something you wrote before you were very secure of how you're presenting yourself. So that is difficult to come back to, but we can absolutely do it. It is deciding which pieces of you are the public facing and which pieces of you are private.

Joanna: I think it's really interesting. So let's take someone who has an established brand. It's very interesting that you worked with Robert Galbraith as JK Rowling because of this pivot.

Sometimes people feel trapped in a brand, and they want to pivot into another brand.And that is a really good example.

Now, it's questionable whether Robert Galbraith would have been as successful without it being outed somehow, or leaked, potentially, who the real person was, which is an interesting question.

In terms of less famous authors, if you want to pivot out of one thing and be known for something else, how do you bring existing fans along?

Can you pivot that author story, or are you best to just start another name?

Isabelle: So this is brilliant question because I get this a lot from authors. I think for you as well, you mentioned you have kind of two different brands. So authors either have more than one existing brand, as it were, or they want to pivot. They're known for one thing, and they want to pivot into the new thing.

So we don't need to create lots of different brands. We don't need to become lots of different people, lots of different authors.

We only need one author brand story. That story can evolve as you do, as a writer, as an author. The story can grow with you, but the kind of fundamentals of that story will remain the same.

Using the JK Rowling example, when she first wrote the Harry Potter series, the story behind that was that she was a single mother who was struggling and wasn't getting a break for ages. It was kind of that front of writing fantasy stories that kind of take you out of reality.

Then when she pivoted, again, it was the being known for one story, changing and pivoting, and becoming known for something completely different and wondering whether she could get away with being anonymous. Obviously, she didn't get away with that for very long at all.

It's always creating that kind of story behind the story, which is what we want to do. But we can use one brand story to wrap together all of your genres, all of your books.

I work with authors sometimes who might be writing romance and children's books, for example, but we don't need to create several different brands. We can do that under one brand, but we're looking at what are the themes that tie together those different genres. I would say 100% of the time when it's the same person writing that those motivations are going to be the same across their genres.

Joanna: I'd say I disagree with that. I think that especially as one writes a lot more books, the audiences become very different.

My audience as Joanna Penn is quite different to J.F. Penn. They're different aspects of my personality.The readerships are different. The email lists are different. The ads are different. Everything looks different. You know, it has a different voice even, and not because I'm somehow a split personality or anything like that.

You mentioned children's and romance, well, that's fine. But I know a lot of children's authors who also write horror, and they have to split their websites. Or erotica, maybe it's not sweet romance, maybe it's erotica.

So people, certainly in the indie community, I think we tend to write generally a lot more books than in the traditional industry. So, often we are moving into these further parts of ourselves, I guess.

So I certainly agree with you on one level, but I also disagree because I feel like it's actually more sensible to manage, at least the more direct marketing around email and ads and all of that kind of stuff, as two brands.

Isabelle: Yes, I do agree with that. That is absolutely true that in your direct marketing the way you present yourself is going to change across your different brands.

You can still have your kind of 360-degree author brand story so that we can still see that it's you, even if you might be writing in wildly different or opposing genres.

You'll have your two brands visually, you'll have your two brands in the way you present yourself and maybe even in your name, but your author brand story will still be able to trace it back to that story behind the story. But you will absolutely need to adapt in your direct marketing and the way you talk about those different genres, for sure.

Joanna: I find this so interesting. As we said at the beginning, I think this is just more and more important over time.

I also know that for my fiction, I've hidden behind the books because it's much easier for me to write a book.For example, I've never done a live reading of my fiction. Never, never done that.

I've never done a book launch, never done most of the things that most traditionally published authors do as part of, I guess, what they call marketing. It is very different to what we often call marketing in the indie world, but I feel like that's actually becoming more important.

So I did want to ask you because, again, one of the feelings in the indie community is hiring a publicist may well be too expensive.

I think you said it yourself a bit earlier that it might not be worth it. But when might it be worth it as an indie author? In what stage of an indie author career?

What might they achieve if they do hire a publicist or work with someone on this?Isabelle: This is another interesting question. So a lot of the authors that I work with are getting off the starting blocks, in terms of working out what their marketing strategy is going to be, working out who they are, how to present themselves as authors, and to get going.

Then they start to build the kind of results that if I was providing what we call done for you publicity services, that I would want to see. This is getting themselves interviewed on the radio, they get into magazines, they are interviewed on podcasts, they start giving talks, and they do book launches at bookshops, and that kind of thing.

So the way I'm working with authors is they are able to get all of these results for themselves, with me kind of guiding and supporting and showing them this is what you have to do next.

For example, learning how to pitch yourself as an author is such a huge skill that loads of authors struggle with. If you don't have a background in marketing and PR, that kind of thing is going to be really difficult.

So at the point where you might want to hire a publicist to do this for you, is the point where, as an author, you've grown your brand to a certain level. You've got a good readership, you know how to do your direct marketing, you're making sales, you're engaging with your readers.

You have more of a relationship with your readers, as in, you know why they're reading your books, you know who they are and what they're looking for in you, as the author. You've got a fan base, you've got readers who are eagerly awaiting the next book in the series, and so on.

So when you get to the point where you're doing so much direct marketing, actually, some of it is about not having the time to do all of your publicity, PR marketing, all by yourself. So if you're at that level, then hiring a publicist for your next big book launch, you know, that could be the right time to do it.

Until you get to that point, you can be learning how to do so much of this for yourself and how it works. So learning how to establish relationships with journalists, for example, how to pitch yourself.

Remember, how to pitch yourself applies to pitching to agents, publishers, journalists, book festival organizers. All of these people are people you would need to pitch to. So once you've learned that skill, you can use it over and over again.

Learning how to present yourself is something that once you've kind of cracked that, then that's a skill that you'll use over and over. Whereas if you're hiring a publicist to do it for you, they'll go off, and they'll do the strategy, and they'll bring back the results, but without you being so involved in understanding what that process is.

So I think my philosophy is teaching people how they can do this for themselves. I'm not teaching you how to become a publicist, but I'm teaching you how to understand how to market yourself and what's going to work for you to reach your readership. Then you can repeat those actions over and over as you go through your career.

Joanna: Yes, and again, I feel like as indies we've spent a long time—like many of us are very, very good at direct sales. In a changing world where the human connection is going to become more important, I do think this is important. So hence why we're talking.

Also, you do have a course coming up. You have lots of things you do available on your site. So just—

Tell us about your services and where people can find you online.Isabelle: Brilliant. So my website is BuildYourBrandWithPR.com. I have a six-week Build Your Author Brand course that I run. It's an online course, but you get access to me. We do live sessions, so it's not just learning on your own. You're learning in a group with other authors, you have direct access to me, and we have lots of live Q&A sessions. That will start again on the 24th of February 2024, so that's a six-week online course.

You can also work with me one-to-one, as well. So I work with lots of clients online, as well. So you can either do group programs or one-to-one programs.

Joanna: Do you repeat that over time? Like if people listen to this later and they want to do it, do you do them several times a year?

Isabelle: Yes. So I run the six-week online course that runs three times a year, at the moment. So yes, if you miss the next one, then you can sign up for the one after.

Joanna: Brilliant. And you have an email list and everything there as well, so people can find out more?

Isabelle: Yes, yes. So you can sign up to the email list through the site. If you feel like working one-to-one with me on your author brand story, you can also book a quick call with me to talk about that.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Isabelle. That was great.

Isabelle: Thank you. Thanks, Jo. It's a pleasure.

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