How To Be Old: Recent Episodes
Rachel McAlpine
Life is long and you're getting older. It's weird, and not just in a bad way. An old poet talks about the ups and downs of life so far, and wonders about well-being in old age. You too may find that old age is unexpected, ever-changing, and in some ways strangely satisfying.
We all hit obstacles with our computers and smartphones and tablets, but IT issues in later life can seem especially tricky. That might be partly because of normal age-related changes like arthritis, poor eyesight, or short term memory failings. Or it might be because we’ve retired, because at work we might have had an IT […]
I enjoy reading tips from a centenarian about why they've lived so long and stayed so perky. Now well over 100, Doris Carnevali devised an original system for tackling the never-ending problems of daily life in extreme old age, and reasons for gratitude.
Whether you are almost old, already old, or never-gonna-be-old, she is my role model for positive ageing. I'm sharing three key chapters from my book based on her blog, The Sturdy Centenarian.
- A simple mantra to stop herself from falling
- her ABC for meeting the everyday challenges of very old age
- And some surprising things to be grateful for, in spite of extreme old age and even because of it.
Usually when very old people are asked for tips on aging, they give varied and specific advice from their own experience. Tips like “stay young at heart” or "stay curious" or "keep dancing" or “marry a good wife.” Doris Carnevali does give advice, although she thinks of herself as a guide, not a teacher. She also also offers a practical, pretty straightforward system for dealing with the challenges that crop up every day when you become very old.
This short episode was first broadcast in November 2024.
Rich advice from 100 centenarians (The Guardian, 23 February 2023)
Even as toddlers we start establishing ourselves as autonomous individuals, and we turn up the volume in our teens. Then in old age we are obliged (or expected) to gradually surrender some decisions, some control over our lives. How are we to navigate these changes? Defending our autonomy is a serious business at any age. […]
I yearn for good conversation in old age, and I have problems. There's tons of advice about how to talk TO old people. But I AM that old person, and I need help too. So I asked Kirsty Ferguson for help.
Do old people like me use different proverbs that young people? We got them from our parents and grandparents and teachers, who got them from the Bible and Shakespeare and other writers. I was pretty sure that today's young people have different ones,probably with different messages. I needed a panel of young people to explain this to me, so my grandson Max McAlpine, age 27, and Gabriella Eaton, 26, enlightened me.
I wonder what proverbs and sayings you say to yourself. Or to other people, especially young people? Do they even understand you? and what do they mean?
Don't miss this episode if you think you might be old one day! At 75 I had an Easy Aging Year, and started 12 tiny lifestyle habits. I gained clarity, confidence and optimism about old age. So can you.
I'm the guest this time! My host Hetty Hellriegel asks me some personal questions. Why am I so fixated on the phenomenon of aging? How long do I expect to live? Why was my Boot Camp for the Bonus Years not a boot camp? What is an easy aging year and how can you have one yourself?
The effects of my easy aging year are with me still. I can still develop new habits to deal with the age-related changes that affect us all. I am alert to the good things about old age as well as the troubles that sneak up on you. For years I assumed my YEAY! programme was too geeky for most people, but now it's time to share it.
How to get YEAY: a little workbook for Your Easy Aging YearDownload the 2026 edition of YEAY, now tested and revised, free
I was born in 1940 and I'm learning how to be old. So Lotta Dann talks here about sobriety in old age. Everything is different when you’re older, and that includes why we drink, how we drink, and the social environment in which we drink. Lotta Dann made a huge impression on New Zealand and abroad with her secret project to give up drinking: alcohol, that is. She wrote a daily diary as a blog describing her struggles, which became a best-seller book: Mrs D is going without. She now carries on with what is now her passion: helping others who want to change their drinking habits. With kindness!
Lotta was only 40 when she gave up drinking. She speaks with compassion and understanding about people who might have a little voice in their heads that says, you need to rethink the way you drink, this is not right for you personally — for whatever reason.
I have also transitioned into sobriety, but it was sobriety in old age (I was over 80) and for different reasons. Just because I'm old, alcohol was giving me less pleasure and bothering me physically. My taste buds, my brain and my digestive system were protesting. Even so, there were some challenges. I learned how even the loveliest friends can take a while to understand your change — and I was ambivalent myself, to start with. The pressure from your social circle can be intense or subtle, defensive or well-meaning.
Any time is a good time to look at how your country, your culture and your social group treat alcohol. New Zealand is a particularly weird place in that way, largely because for 50 years (1929–1979) pubs closed at 6pm, training Kiwis to drink fast, drink up, drink to get pissed in the 'six-o'clock swill.' It's wrong to blame yourself if you're drinking too much because there's so much pressure from business, history, society to do so — and alcohol is addictive.
I have seen people begin drinking heavily in old age. But I'd like to know how many people shift to sobriety in old age, like me.
Head to Lotta's website for information and advice and company, if this topic interests you:Living Sober: advice, tools, experts, and a caring community
Mrs D is going without: Lotta Dann's historic blog, still online, with good reason!
Reading a podcast transcript Podcasts on Apple Podcasts have a transcript running at the same time. That can be handy, especially if you're hard of hearing. If you listen to it on my website, you can read the transcript here. It's pretty long — just keep scrolling!
Transcript of episode 49. Thinking about sobriety in old age: Guest Lotta DannHello, I'm Rachel McAlpine. I was born in 1940, so I'm learning how to be old.
And with me today is Lotta Dann, who made a huge impression in New Zealand and abroad
with her day-by-day account of her struggle to give up drinking.
Alcohol, that is. And she now carries on the good work.
She runs the Living Sober website with the New Zealand Drug Foundation.
I'll give you the URL in the notes.
I'm very interested because everything is different when you're older
and that includes why we drink, how we drink,
and the social environment in which we drink.
So welcome, Lotta.
I'm so very glad to have you here in my podcast studio.
In other words, sitting on the couch in my sitting room.
Hello lovely to be here. Yes bathed in sunlight. Yes and with a cat let's hope she behaves.
Now it struck me that you and I are both good subjects for a compare and contrast exercise.
Did you do that at school? Compare this poem with that poem or? Probably yes. And contrast what's
alike because we both gave up drinking but at completely different times of our life and for
different reasons and different methods. Yeah, because how old are you? Not at all?
I'll be 55 this year. Yeah, and I'm 85 so that's enough of a difference to have a contrast.
Oh for goodness sake, I'm not 85. I'm 86.
I want to know how old you were when you gave up drinking.
I was 39. I was one month shy of my 40th birthday.
Was that a point, the fact that you were turning 40?
Yes and no. I think in hindsight, I don't think it's surprising that I came to a big life decision
right on that 40th birthday because it is a time of change but it was also just the reason that
my drinking had really got to such a bad point at that time that I was forced in many ways to
give up then. Yeah 40. Yeah there's quite a lot of drinking done before 40. Whereas I gave up
drinking almost completely. I'll have like a millimetre of nice wine if it's around sometimes,
once a week, once a month or something, but mostly not at all. But I suppose I really gave up about,
perhaps when I was about 80, I don't know, and it was just tailing off until then.
Was that a conscious decision for you? Like I'm not going to drink anymore or was it more of a
casual you just found that you weren't drinking that. It was an intention yes
not for the same reasons as you probably I think it was my old body saying look
you can't do this Rachel I just drink less and less until I was thinking well
is there a waste of money to buy a bottle of wine and have it sitting there
for a couple of weeks going funny. Yeah that is not my experience. Why did you
give up drinking. I mean why, tell me about it because it's an amazing story.
Well I would just, you know, there was a huge part of me that didn't want to quit
drinking because it had been a part of my life since I was 15 and in many
respects I loved it. I loved alcohol, you know, I loved that it made me feel loose
and relaxed and sort of naughty and fun and I loved it. I always just wanted to be
The upbeat fun lotter and alcohol helped me do that, but I couldn't control it.
I mean, I was literally drinking to intoxication almost every single night of the week.
I was embarrassing myself when I was out at social events and I had a raging internal
dialogue telling me something was wrong and I needed to change.
alongside the raging internal dialogue telling me,
drinking's normal, everyone does it.
You're hardworking, you deserve it.
Go ahead, drink.
The other part of my brain was going, this is wrong.
You're out of control, you've gotta stop.
And it was absolute hell back and forward.
- A nightmare.
- To the point where I had to,
the only way to stop that was actually to stop drinking
and it was terrifying, but I made that decision
and I haven't had a drink since.
- Just like that.
- Well, not just like that.
It was very hard.
- It was a couple of years, was it?
That you were writing your blog.
This is the strange and amazing thing to me,
to most people, I suppose,
is that you didn't tell your family,
but you did a blog about it.
- I told my husband,
- Yes.
- Because we don't have any secrets from each other.
Although right at the end, I was hiding wine bottles,
which was part of the pain of seeing where I was at
was that I was bringing deceit into our marriage.
So he knew I was quitting,
but I didn't tell my extended family
who were all living elsewhere at the time.
I just really focused on trying to fix myself
and I sort of set out to do it all by myself,
which I now realize was foolish,
but anyway, it worked for me
'cause I started writing this blog
and writing myself letters effectively every day
about what I was doing.
- And that way it worked for other people too
because you got such a following
and people were so engaged.
People who had the same feelings.
- Yeah, and I mean at the time
there were all these blogs on the internet
and you know every housewife in America
was blogging about her crafting and children
and I just thought my blog would be hidden
amongst all of them and no one would read it.
I didn't write it to be read.
I wrote it as a private, I just did it online
type faster than I write with a pen.
- Yeah.
- But actually people started reading it and commenting
and they were all saying I'm just like you
and up to that point I had felt very alone.
I thought everyone in the world,
'cause this is what's presented to us through marketing
and our environment, everyone in the world's
having a great time with alcohol
and you're the only loser that is miserable.
And when people started reading my blog and commenting
just like you, I discovered there are so many people secretly, privately struggling with
alcohol still to this day and feeling that it's their fault, their to blame, they should
be ashamed and they hide it and you know this is why I do what I do now because I just think
the more we're open and honest the more we're all helped.
Yes, it's that pressure from society that's why people are failing. If society didn't
that attitude that you know a good time equals a glass in your hand then it
wouldn't be embarrassing it wouldn't be disturbing you could just get cracking
and give up without some of that struggle wouldn't be there. I mean I
find that you know by contrast it's not a very big contrast really but at least I
grew up with parents who had a sherry at Christmas before dinner or something
like that. It was about like that. So there'd be this bottle of sherry getting syrupy year
after year after year. And that was the limit of it. But then things changed.
50 years of the 6 o'clock swill I think must have trained New Zealanders to boos, to get
drunk as fast as possible in a way that it's not sort of normal in other countries.
The six o'clock swill, it did train us to booze and get as drunk as fast as we can,
but it also trained us to be okay with public and open intoxication.
And we still have this attitude today.
If someone is falling over drunk at a wedding, we'll laugh about it or admit that it's not
to say I can't remember where we ended up last night. I had to check the bank to
see where I was spending money at 2am and it's all it's okay we laugh like
it's funny and blackouts are not funny. No way. And falling over at weddings
shouldn't be funny it's not okay but we do have an attitude here that being
drunk is okay and and we live in a culture where the liquor industry is
allowed to push this awful messaging of personal responsibility. You just need to
learn how to drink more responsibly and that further shames people if they're not.
So there's so many sort of different messages and pressures that lead to
where we are now where alcohol is just ubiquitous, it's everywhere, people drink
it and yet a lot of people, a lot of people are privately really unhappy
with their drunking. Yeah. I was going to say my blog is called, my blog, listen to me,
I'm back in the olden days. We were just talking about a blog. Yes, my podcast is called
Learning How to Be Old. So I'm always interested in what's different when we're old because
everything changes including the world around us and those strong messages, not that that's changed
a lot except for young people. I understand that there are groups of young people who
don't drink as much and there are others who drink a lot. But how about old people? Do
we all just wind down gently like me without any problems?
No. There are a lot of older people who are still drinking in what would be coined hazardous
ways and a lot of the negative impacts are quite internal so we often think we
need to look at things like getting in trouble with the law or ending up in
hospital or falling over if you're an old person you know that's if I'm not
doing that then I'm okay but it's those subtle but really impactful internal
impacts that are so hard for anyone but I would say old people especially because
it's that kind of diminished sense of self not really allowing yourself to
feel emotion and process difficult emotions not giving yourself time to be
able to reflect on things that might need some reflection even if it's
uncomfortable you know and sort of allowing yourself the space to do that
and then just things like sleeping better not you know doing saying eating
things that you don't want to because you've had a few too many wines and you
let yourself down all of those things. Yes for me I wasn't sort of aware of
what alcohol was doing to me especially except a kind of digestion and a bit of an uneasy
feeling and just not liking it as much which were just aging things but after I gave it
up I didn't sleep badly before you see but now I do sleep better and you know my gut
feels better.
Yeah and if you're used to drinking for many many years you probably don't even recognise
that slight layer of just everything being that bit harder, you're just that
bit more sluggish in the morning or you know you probably don't realize that it
is the alcohol having that impact and as you get older we were talking earlier
you know your body's older right so it's just it's done more wonderful things for
you but it's getting tighter and then if you add alcohol to that it is just going
to make it all that little bit. But I do want to say because I can sometimes come across
like I'm anti-alcohol. You know, if you're having one or two wines and you're really
not feeling it's a problem, that's okay. You're allowed to drink. It's just you will
know if there's a little voice in your head or if you're having any concerns, you know
deep down inside. You know the truth. The drinker knows the truth. So just be
honest with yourself is what I would say and know that if you're
wondering maybe should I, you know that it's doable at any age. That's very
interesting you should say that. Be honest with yourself because recently
Hariata Hemi was on this podcast and she's very involved with the staying
safe refresher driving course run by age concern teaching older drivers how to
deal with the difficulties they might be having with driving and Hariata said
exactly the same thing be honest with yourself right which is not always easy
so which is I imagine a big thing is your age yeah it's very complicated like
giving up drinking, giving up driving. If you're honest with yourself, you know that roads have
changed in the last 30 or 40 years, cars have changed, and our bodies and brains have been changing too.
We're not the same drivers or drinkers that we were when we were 20 or 30, and we might be
shutting her eyes to certain facts. I know what that's like, I can tell you. I can be
willfully blind with the best of them.
What have you got to lose? On the surface, well you've got a nice tasting drink to lose
or to cut down on for example. You know, having a good time, having a lovely social time can
be done with a cup of tea or just a sherry glass full of wine like I did for quite a
long time but I found that it was easier mostly when I'm out anyway just to say no I don't
drink because otherwise you have these little moments where someone's offering you more
drink and you have to say no and it's all a nuisance.
It can feel like a big loss though like I want to acknowledge that and I hear what you're
saying what have you got to lose I feel the same way what have you got to lose but it
It can feel like a lot if it's been your companion and if it's been your go-to or if you're lonely
because loneliness is a big thing.
So I just want to acknowledge that and if you've got the worried voice and you want
to make a change but you feel like it's a big loss, there will be some grieving over
that and there will be a transition.
It might feel uncomfortable at first but I would just recommend push through that because
The benefits are huge.
So, yeah, that's a very good message.
And somebody said to me, you know,
if you're near death and drinking is the only thing that makes you feel good,
who are you to say it might be a good idea?
I mean, that's a weird situation and that must happen a lot
and I'm in no way want to be judging people that like you.
No.
That's not, I'm not, I'm not.
I'd like you to give some tips for those people who are older and in that situation
where their social life kind of involves a lot of alcohol and they have the voice inside
and the real worry.
What are the tips you've got apart from pushing through and knowing the rewards are there?
Just know that it is possible to retrain your thinking.
So if you're coming together with a group of friends every Thursday and everyone's
having a wine and you feel like that gathering is going to lose all its value if I'm not
having the wine, you've really got to focus on actually what is that about.
It's about coming together with friends.
That is the number one.
Who cares what liquid is in your glass, right?
can have the same connected moment, the same social moment without that
lubrication of the drug, which it is by the way, an addictive drug just saying.
So focus like and it takes retraining. But how interesting, do that in your old
age. You know focus on all the things about whatever the social situation is
that aren't the liquid in your glass. What makes it good? What makes it valuable?
and focus on those things and the more you go the third time the fourth time
you'll start to realize actually and
especially if you have that worried voice suddenly the worried voice is gone because you're not drinking and you're just enjoying your time with friends
If they start hassling you for not drinking then are they really good friends?
And also usually it's more about them than you. That's true
it makes some people feel uncomfortable. But people, you can train your friends.
It's they're, they love you, they don't really want to hurt you. So, yeah, a bit of a word.
Yes, that's right. Well, that's exactly right. You know, and be as honest as you feel like you want to be.
But if you can be honest and say, "I've been really worried about it and I'm trying something new,"
you know, if they care about you, they'll hear that.
Yeah.
[Music]
What's your main job at the moment?
I have a few jobs.
I've made not drinking my whole career now and I work sort of in the addiction sector
but the job I'm most proud of and gives me the most fulfilment is running a website called Living Sober
which I do in partnership with the New Zealand Drug Foundation
The face of old age, your own old age, takes a bit of getting used to. When I was only 74 and I still had a bad case of ageism, I didn’t like the look of old people. Now I look in the mirror and I see an old woman’s face — and strange to say, I don’t particularly care.
Dr Susanna Kent and I recorded this episode on my 85th birthday and we had a lot of fun, which I’m keen to share with you.
Why the face of old age is not a pretty oneI demanded that Susanna explain why I’ve got dead-gorse-bush hair, non-existent eyebrows, and so many scars and wrinkles. I questioned random pedestrians: as you’ll hear, most said they don’t look at the face of a new acquaintance but into their eyes — or in one case, at their clothes! They look to see whether a person is approachable. They look for the essence, the spirit of a person. Which has nothing to do with wrinkles.
Poems about making beautiful facesTurns out I have written at least three poems about faces and makeup. You could almost call it an obsession:
- Making Faces (written in my 30s)
- Beauty Tips for Older Ladies (written when I was 79)
- Aging Beauty — instant poem, (written when I was 82)
Do you really want to know about the face of old age?We barely touched on the topic. But a quick glance at the NIH National Library of Medicine gives the facts about facial ageing, sometimes in excruciating detail.
- The facial aging process from the inside out (PMC, National Library of Medicine)
- Facial aging trajectories: A common shape pattern in male and female faces is disrupted after menopause (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6771603/
Lesley and Richard Evans discuss adventures in home gardening. Gardening is exercise, nature-bathing, achievement and fun at any age. There are so many ways of gardening, one for every personality, and ways that work from the cradle to the grave.
He is busy planting and growing and weeding a big range of fruit and vegetables in their city garden, and she is harvesting and eating and preserving and giving the rest away.
They're both in their 80s, which is not that unusual for gardeners. That's because if you get the opportunity, gardening is something you can enjoy from the age of 3 to 93, at least.
You can start and stop at any age, although it must be said: Richard never stops. Mind you, they pace themselves. If you are learning how to be old, and if gardening is a possibility for you — well, you can see from Lesley and Richard’s example just how interesting and fun that can be.
The garden produces more than foodIt's an inspiration for paintings. Gardens are beautiful. And so is food. Irresistible fodder for an artist like Lesley.
They began as a young married couple in Kunde, in Nepal, high in the Himalayas. Not ideal terrain for a vege garden. They were working in Kunde Hospital founded by Edmund Hillary, and their garden succumbed to wandering yaks.
Obviously gardening is exercise. It’s also a way to plunge into nature, a mental challenge, a budget boost, a social thing and even a neighbourhood thing. One word of advice: You might want to start small!
- Raised garden beds for over-50s
- Making garden connections (Age Concern)
Photos are by Rachel McAlpine except for A. villages of Kumbila and Kunde, which is by Moralist, CC SA-BY 3.0 and B. Lesley Evans' painting of children eating apples off a tree, by Lesley Evans and C. Lesley with 2 enormous carrots, by Richard Evans
I'm often asked this question: 'What's a podcast?' Here's a simple explanation.
It's obvious that the asker has not yet ventured into the wonderful world of podcasts. You don't exactly stumble across podcasts, especially independent podcasts like mine, so I am making a few little videos that open the door. They're simplistic, because the person I've got in mind is a blank slate. Once they get it, they're into that wonderful podcast world of learning, laughing and lolling around.
If you know someone who is curious but only half-interested in podcasts, and you want them to try a particular podcast (not necessarily mine) feel free to share the video or audio version of this little talk. That might help, and someone will thank you, I hope.
By the way, podcasts are terrific for older people. We grew up pre-TV, with radio in our ears.
Transcript of What's a podcast?Hey, I’m Rachel McAlpine and my podcast is Learning How To Be Old. Listen if you might be old one day.
I said listen, not watch. People ask me, what’s a podcast? What’s the point? There’s no video, nothing to see!
So. It’s like a radio programme on your phone. But you pick the programmes that you really like, and listen whenever you like. No screen involved. You can listen while you do the dishes, sit on the bus, go on the treadmill, drift off to sleep — whatever.
And it’s on your phone. Which is in your pocket. If you’re 50, 60, 70, you’ve got a friend in your pocket. Just search for Rachel McAlpine podcast, or Learning How to be old. Or my website, WriteIntoLife.com/podcast. There's a pile of episodes there for your pleasure, and a new one every couple of weeks.
At 86 I'm hungry for role models who show me how they manage life in their 90s. Rachelle Calkoen may be 102 but she is more engaged with the world, more curious than many people half her age. I hope you get as much joy from her story as I do. If so, please tell a friend about this podcast so they can also be inspired.
Today I’m learning how to be old from someone with a track record: the fabulous Rachelle Calkoen. She was born in 1923, in Holland.
I interviewed her four years ago, for my play, The Secret Lives of Extremely Old People, when she was only 98. The other day I was having a cup of tea with her and she kindly gave me permission to use part of that conversation for this podcast. Coming up shortly.
She said very little had changed for her since then, and she certainly looks the same (wonderful) and her voice sounds the same (musical). She still has the same problems: words — she can FEEL them in her mouth, but they won’t come out; and the same pleasures: birds and people and books and clocks and life itself.
She’s 102, with a mind and heart wide open. She is curious! She’s up for new stuff! Some things annoy her but I don’t think anything bores her. Anyway we can never BE her but that’s what I’m learning from her: to crank up that curiosity engine.
An extremely long life is inevitably interesting. We learn something of her childhood in Holland followed by the horrors of the German occupation. Her university year in Geneva under Professor Jean Piaget and idealistic early career. Her marriage and emigration to New Zealand 75 years ago.
But I'm especially interested in her personal experience of life as an extremely old woman, because she is my curious centenarian role model.
- A centenarian's practical advice (A sturdy centenarian)
- ‘Keep your eyes open – and leap into the future’: 100 centenarians’ 100 tips for a life well lived (The Guardian)
Hey, I went carless years ago, otherwise I might be thinking these thoughts:
- I've been driving safely for 50 years and never had acrash, so how dare you say I'm a danger to shipping?
- Why do I have to have a cognitive test? Animals beginning with A? Ridiculous.
- How am I going to get to choir if I can't drive?
- Why won’t my son let me drive my mokopuna to soccer?
- And, um, what are those things called buses?
These may sound familiar if you are starting to wonder whether you should be driving any more. Part of learning how to be old is learning to drive safely as long as possible, and how to recognise when you need advice or help. Fact is, everything changes over a lifetime of driving: roads, rules, cars, and our bodies, brains, needs and circumstances. Therefore we can't just carry on driving the same way forever without a review.
So I talked to Hariata Hema. Her role in Age Concern New Zealand is to run the Staying Safe Refresher Driving Course all around New Zealand, along with a small team. This is a one-day course to update your driving knowledge and also tackle those painful personal questions.
What has Hariata Hema taught me about driving safely even when you're old? Be honest with yourself, and think ahead, don’t wait for disaster to strike, be pro-active. And if you live in Aotearoa New Zealand, ask your local branch of Age Concern about their various courses, and especially the Staying Safe Refresher Driving Course. Short and oh so helpful and maybe necessary.
By the way, Hariata is 70, so she understands what is involved in driving safely into old age, not only professionally but also personally.
- Age Concern's Staying Safe Refresher Driving Course
- AA research on older drivers
- Starting and stopping—writing? driving? living?
Meena Kadri is only 56 but she already has activities that will be fun in old age. She gets great pleasure from activities with friends who are decades older than her. They inevitably show her different ways of being old, and they bring surprising stories and wisdom and fun to their conversation.
That's one reason why Meena knows heaps about how to be old, and has no fear of old age. She’s learned from weaving and aquajogging with older women, and from hanging out with her 98-year-old uncle in Bombay.
In this episode she also talks about the feng shui of park benches, and a workshop run by an octogenarian that alerted young designers to the needs of older people.
I think you'll enjoy meeting Meena — and if so, do share her interview with a friend.
- Wellington City Council Hydrotherapy pool
- Park benches placed for conversation in Korea
- https://www.flickr.com/photos/meanestindian/ (Meena Kadri's amazing photostream on Flickr)
Look, you don't want to fall over, do you, especially if you're old and your bones are brittle. Luckily there's plenty of scientific evidence about how to build our strength and balance, and proof that it really works. Adrian Pretorius's work helps to keep hundreds of people out of hospital. He’s got tips, apps, and evidence which will help us to stay upright. And if you do fall over, you don’t want to get stuck on the floor or break something so that we land up in hospital. Personally, I’m very keen on avoiding that, aren’t you? Adrian has even got advice about that.
New Zealand's Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) has this goal for New Zealand residents: Live stronger for longer — prevent falls and fractures. Look for the low cost community-run Steady As You Go classes. NYMBL, an ingenious app, is free for all New Zealand residents over 50.
Once last year I just fell over regardless, for no apparent reason, with no obvious cause. I didn't trip, slip, lose my balance, twist or stumble: I just felt as if someone popped the balloon of me and I collapsed. But thanks to one harmless and simple strategy, I fell softly and didn't hurt myself. So of course I asked Adrian to share this message: you can do this too. No guarantee! I'm well aware of that. But once learned, I've never forgotten it and I hope I never do. Fall softly! (After all, that's what children do.) So far, so good.
I'm learning how to be old from my big sister Jill. She looks back on a joyful working life as a social worker. She has a great tip for making sense of your own career, and appreciating what you achieved.
Remember "Love in the Real World"? In this discussion, Rhonda Pritchard updates her famous and refreshingly realistic book after 30 years. Some elements change when you're older. Ohers matter even more.
Are you losing your balance as you get older? There's much you can do to help yourself keep moving confidently through life.
Jo Randerson's creative approach to life brings up key questions about aging. For example, as we age, do we get physically and emotionally softer or harder — or both? and how will we respond when someone tells us we have spilled food down our front?
Settle down and enjoy the wisdom and fun of my distinguished guest, Lois Daish, New Zealand cooking hero. We reflect on changes in our own cooking and eating since 1940. Spoiler: we both fart more in our 80s;
Rosie Gibson investigates sleep in older people, and the way normal sleep is treated as a measurable medical problem. We asked 40 people over 75 whether they think about sleep that way.
40 is a good time to improve your lifestyle. It pays off! For some, like my guest Simon Sweetman, it could be a matter of life or death.
In this podcast episode, Kate Camp and I go nitpicking, grumbling and raving on the general topic of old people reading books and old people in books. Listen if you might be old one day.
Learning How To Be Old returns to the air with a timely check-up. I want to be sure that I’m fit to podcast. Hugo, aged 13, tests me for my overdue Old Person Warrant of Fitness. Looking pretty good, though some criteria are dubious. I just need an oil and grease and a few tweaks […]
I started by naming a podcast, as you do. Some experts tell you not to overthink when naming a podcast. So instead, I underthought. “Learning How To Be Old” is a terrifying title. It drives people away in droves, screaming and blocking their ears. So, bad name for a podcast! (You would rather be dead […]
Defending our autonomy is a serious business at any age. In this bonus episode, the Sturdy Centenarian rages against "thoughtless condescension." I'm Rachel McAlpine, only 84, and finally learning how to be old. Better late than never! As young people, even as children, we feel very strongly that we want to be boss of ourselves. That's ageism, and it hurts. Doris Carnevali has figured out how to deal with it.
One of my most important mentors for the uncharted territory of aging is retired professor Doris Carnevali. At 95 she noticed that younger people felt free to breach her boundaries, disregarding her opinions and being downright rude. This was shocking, and apparently due only to her advanced age.
The problem was obvious — but what to do, how to protect her precious autonomy? She decided to bring the topic into the light. She began talking to her family openly and truthfully about how old age affected her. She set some rules, too.
I always find guidance from this wise woman, even though I'm about 12 younger. And I get tips from her experience of defending autonomy that would have been useful to me 40 years ago.
- What is autonomy and why is it so difficult to achieve?
- Medical ethics: autonomy
- My cat suffers from ageism too
To buy this book, just email me.
Welcome to Learning How to Be Old. I don't know how to be old, but I'm learning! I’m your host, Rachel McAlpine, I’m 84 and I’m pausing the podcast after this. This episode closes Season 2, and Season 3 will start with a hiss and a roar in 2025.
Who is it for? For you, if you think you might be old one day. What’s in it for you? Three useful things: a companion, an antidote to ageism, and a source of optimism. What’s in it for me? 30 per cent public service, 70 percent fun. Why stop at the mysterious number 16? And shall I read you a poem, for once?
Reasons for pausing a blog
Choirs work on many levels, promoting community, positivity and joy. They may even help you to sleep better. Don't be scared to join a choir! You'll be helping others as well as yourself. Barbara Paterson, director of a community choir, talks about the pleasures of training both teenagers and older people how to sing.
- Capital Choir, Wellington, New Zealand
- Choir singing improves health, happiness — and is the perfect icebreaker
- Challenges of choral singing in old age
You and I have spent most of our life in clothes, which have changed radically over the years. Sandy Jeffs designs clothes that work for three generations, and we talk about our favourite clothes and stupid clothes, past and present. I also ask some passers-by an intrusive question about their wardrobe. This conversation is warm, colourful and fun, like the jacket I bought from Sandy's Wellington shop, Frutti. I am reassured as, in my 80s, I'm learning how to be old. Episode 12.
Do you fancy starting a business after 50 or 60 or even older? Forget those ageist stereotypes. It is possible, it's a growing global trend, and support is at hand. Researcher Dr Judith Davey describes the motivation of senior entrepreneurs in Aotearoa New Zealand, and facilitator Alexandra Lutyens from Creative HQ tells us what support they want and need. As a bonus, seven young people tell us what sort of business they would start if they did so in their 50s or older. I learned quite a bit about senior business startups from my contributors and I think you might too.
RESOURCES. There are links to some terrific resources here if you’re starting a business after 50 in Aotearoa New Zealand, or even have a hint of an idea for a business. If you live elsewhere, look for local equivalents: starting a business in later life is mainstream now, so you need not do this alone.
- Better Work in Later Life: Starting a business after 50 — Heaps of resources from Massey University
- Creative HQ — all about the award-winning Wellington innovation hub
- Startup Aotearoa — coaching and guidance for startups
- A history told in business cards
Is there really no psychological development in old age? Are people really stagnating from the age of 50? Doris Carnevali, as a 95-year-old blogger, was outraged by psychological theories that she learned last century at nursing school. My daughter-in-law Hetty and I consider the 12 original developmental tasks which she devised.
In 1950, psychologist Erik Erikson posited that old age started at 50. Put briefly, the next 50-odd years of life should be spent contemplating our lives and feeling either despair or satisfaction. If you're learning how to be old, don't swallow that old theory whole!
Please give Hetty and the horse some stars, and follow this podcast if you might be old one day.
Notes on development in old age* Psychosocial Development in Late Adulthood (Student notes, Iowa State University) * Erikson's stages of psychosocial development (Wikipedia notes) * Havighurst's developmental tasks theory (Practical Psychology)
Today you'll hear an audiologist, an ornithologist, a theatre critic, myself and another poet talk about hearing aids: two common barriers and various life-enhancing benefits. We focus on the situation in Aotearoa New Zealand. (I'm Rachel McAlpine, a writer, not a scientist or health practitioner, so please do consult professionals and and do your own research.)
If you are almost old you may have mild to moderate hearing loss, like me—that’s normal. Today I have three guests: Wendy Poludore, an audiologist based in Wellington. Also, two people who need hearing aids for very particular reasons: Colin Miskelly, Curator of Vertebrates at Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa, and John Smythe, Editor of Theatreview, which publishes online reviews of professional theatre in Aotearoa New Zealand.
Other interesting comments from readers of my blog, Write Into Life. And with her permission, I'll read a super poem on this topic by the American poet Rosemerry Wahtolla Trommer.
To read a transcript, listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts.
Resources:
- Hearing New Zealand
- Estimating the global costs of hearing loss
- Hearing Aids May Slow Dementia Onset
- A Cost-Benefit Analysis of Hearing Aids, Including the Benefits of Reducing the Symptoms of Dementia
- Poem: When Bruce Told Me He’d Brought You Your Hearing Aids (Rosemerry Wahtolla Trommer)
Blog posts about hearing aids:
- Touchy about hearing loss?
- Joy of hearing aids
Hello, I'm Rachel McAlpine and I'm learning how to be old.
What makes a good conversation? How does that change as we get older? And why does that matter? I don't want to be the boring old person that nobody wants to talk to. Here to help me are 11 kind strangers and Kirsty Ferguson, who specialises in helping people talk through their own miscommunication. So, listen if you think you might be old one day!
To take the last one first, it matters heaps. Communicating frequently with other human beings is almost a matter of life and death at a certain age. Because a good conversation is an antidote to loneliness, and loneliness is literally a killer.
- Antidote to loneliness: 7 real-life conversations a day
- Harriet Lerner's Psychology Today blog: The Dance of Connection
- What Kirsty Ferguson does
Transcript of this podcast episode: A Good Conversation[Music] Hello, I'm your host Rachel McAlpine and I'm learning how to be old. And so are you, I think.
What makes a good conversation? And how does that change as we get older, if at all? And why does that matter?
To take the last one first, it matters heaps. Communicating with other human beings on a regular basis is almost a matter of life and death at a certain age. Because a good conversation keeps loneliness at bay and loneliness is a killer, literally.
What people think is a good conversationShhh! Listen to the people.
- I think a good conversation is one that disarms you and gets you to speak about yourself and learn about another person.
- I would say a good conversation is being able to have a good debate about something. So, yeah, listening to someone else's point of view and taking it on board and seeing if you can be swayed.
- It should be as much listening as it is talking. [Bell rings]
My guest is Kirsty Ferguson, mediatorR. My guest today is Kirsty Ferguson from Te Whanganui-tara. Kirsty's going to help me look at how we communicate. And especially how we can improve our skills as we get older. She's very good at this personally and it's her job to help people resolve their disputes by talking to each other. Ferguson partners work with all manner of groups and organisations and restorative justice, mediation and dispute resolution. In other words, Kirsty's at the sharp end of communication helping other people.
My own dispute is with myself and my own conversational bad habits as an old person. And Kirsty has kindly agreed to give me a hand. Hello, Kirsty. Thank you for coming along and talking to me.
K. My pleasure. It's very lovely to be here, Rachel.
R. Particularly as you're a bit of an expert on communication, especially in tricky situations. And for this episode, I'm really interested in how we can get a few skills up our sleeve so that it's less likely that when we're old, this is sounding very convoluted, when we're old, when I'm really older than I am, I don't want to be the boring person that nobody wants to talk to. And I'm thinking I might be able to learn a bit in advance. You can help me, right?
K. Very happy to have a conversation and share some of the few things I've learned over the years.
R. I was also thinking about how conversation, how our skills change as we get older, even if we don't learn anything formally. And I remember, since I was one of six girls, so around the dinner table, we had to put our hands up to talk, not because our father was fierce, but because he wanted us all to have turns and we all wanted to talk all the time. Was it like that for you?
"Children should be seen and not heard"K. Not quite so much for me. My family wasn't quite as compelling or compassionate. We were a little bit more seen and not heard, I think, at the dinner table. As I grew older, I was encouraged to speak and engage, but certainly I think that was the ethos of our family dinners. They weren't fun times, particularly.
R. Certainly my mother used to say, “little birds in their nest agree” and “children should be seen and not heard. But she always said it as a bit of a joke. It was like, "Oh, come on, please stop talking to everybody all at once." It wasn't kind of serious. And it worked. We said, "All right, time to shut up and stop squabbling."
K. I remember as a parent, also having the children talking a lot at me and thinking, “I'm busy doing this task and I cannot give you the attention that you want right now.” So I used to say, “Oh, can we just hang five for a moment and let me finish this task?” And then I can really attend to what you're saying and not just go, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.” So I think designating times when you are able to, you know, to devote serious attention to the content of the conversation as opposed to just being chatted at.
R. Well, you're better, I think you're a better mother than me then — because fancy being aware of it! I think I was extremely unaware of all the dynamics of conversation. I had no idea that you could actually choose the kind of things you said or didn't say. It was entirely intuitive until I was 32 or 3. I was teaching. And we had a refresher course on what they called interpersonal communication and assertiveness, which strangely enough was a lot about listening actively. It was like a bombshell, I thought, “Jeepers, this is amazing.” But you probably knew that long ago, did you?
People favour talking over listeningK. Oh, no, I think they are things we learn. And I'm reminded of a book by Harriet Lerner. And I think she was interviewed by Brene Brown. But Harriet Lerner said that she, I can't remember whether she offered these two courses or she had observed this process happening, but one course was How to Speak to be Heard. And the other course was how to listen for understanding. And the How to Speak workshop was oversubscribed. So everyone wanted to learn how better to make sure that they were heard. And they had a Listen for Understanding. There were very few registrations for that. So that idea that everyone is very keen to be heard and articulate their concerns or issues. But not so many people understand or, yeah, I get that listening is quite a thing. And that's what we need.
Why and how we need to listenR. Yes, it's huge, isn't it? And I was also thinking, listening and talking: why is it so important to have conversation? And especially with old people, we know so much now about it's a kind of life or death thing, being able to talk to people and having people around and talking is a really important bonus. Yeah, what do you think?
K. Listening is such a central element of being in relationship with anyone. And I think what we know is being in relationships with our community, our family, our friends, our neighbours. It is so central for our well-being. And for that to happen, we need to be listening. And the idea that listening is the most important gift we can give. And that is about being heard.
And it's listening with no judgement. It's listening to accept and believe everything people offer. That's the central really important link in any kind of relationships. Because as soon as people feel there's a sense of judgement, then there's that sense that they're not being believed and a rejection of self. So I think judgement is the death knell to any kind of empathy. And empathy is such an important element when we're in relationship and when we're communicating. And that's what we need to do.
6 barriers to good conversation for old peopleR. Now there's plenty of advice on how to talk to old people — as if we're all the same. And it's helpful, of course it is. But then there's learning how to BE the old person who people have to talk to or want to talk to. That's what I need to know. So do you if you're going to be old one day? You want to participate, not vegetate. When to start thinking about these things? Well, now's good.
For me in my 80s there are at least six new challenges in this area. Conversation stoppers. The first three are normal age-related changes and I think they're very common, especially in a group discussion.
The first challenge is being a bit deaf. So even with hearing aids you miss out on the subtleties. You miss the throwaway remarks, the naughty little sides. And the punchlines, worst of all you miss the jokes.
The second challenge in conversation, in later life you process information more slowly. So for most of us the dream of rapid repartee is gone forever. Even when you're sober. These days by the time I figure out what I want to say, the moment is past.
Number three, I'm greyer and smaller and less of a show-off. I'm less visible.
You know some of these challenges may sneak up on you too one day. They are among the possible gifts of old age. But the last three problems, repeating myself, butting in and giving unsolicited advice — I'm afraid they might be changing my personality for the worse. So I'm thinking I need to start doing something extra, something different. So I started by asking people in the street what they thought makes a good conversation and that was very interesting.
More people describe a good conversationShhhhhh. Listen to the people.
- A conversation between two people is a good conversation. If you're in a group of lots of people it's going to be hard to talk to them at the same time.
- One that is engaging and makes you feel something, like maybe helps you get to know someone a bit more on a deeper level. A good conversation to me is a back and forth in which both people kind of bring their unique perspectives to the forefront. It's something that you can look back on and really smile about.
- I like political conversations because even if you're arguing or debating, no one doesn't want to not talk. And if they do want to not talk, that's the conversation in itself.
- I feel like maybe. A good conversation is the one that flows well, involves both people and between people that are interested in getting to know the other. And I think those are pretty much the key things really.
- I don't know, I feel like a good conversation is one where you're either learning things or enjoying yourself because that's the most important thing. There's no point in talking if you're not liking what you're talking about.
Scared of boring peopleR. And so whether you're an older person talking to a younger person, well, let's just start with that since that's my main concern. Because I'm sort of scared I'm going to be really boring when I'm a little bit older, that I'll get stuck. I'll keep saying the same thing over and over again, partly because I'm a bit deaf. And so I'm trying to think how not to do that. And of course, listening to other people would be a very good start, wouldn't it? Instead of thinking, I've got to talk, I've got to talk, I've got to talk. And that's kind of the wrong end of the stick, isn't it?
K. Well, I think it's all of those things. I don't think it has to be one or the other and you will never be boring. I can tell you that. But I think having a few, I think remaining curious is really important and having a few questions up your sleeve. So rather than sitting and feeling like you're isolated, because perhaps your hearing's not so good and that people might not be interested in you, then I think having some questions up your sleeve to engage with others and to really listen for understanding.
And I think that's not just for older people. I think people who feel shy or find social situations difficult, having a few questions up your sleeve and being really interested in people, because people do love talking about themselves.
R. Oh, you just took me right back to school dances. Because not only did we need a new dress, which we'd whip up in the afternoon of the dance, but also I used to study and think, you know, make sure I knew what had happened at the rugby that day. I had my questions to ask these boys who were probably much more shy than me even. So, and I'm afraid it does get them talking about themselves in a big way. I don't know why I said I'm afraid, because that's what we want to do. But not to have it all lopsided. Yes.
K. Yeah. And when there's an age difference, and perhaps you don't know each other very well, that's a bit more likely maybe. Yeah. And I think it's, you know, I mean, there's lots of space clearly to be listening to older people too, because there's much wisdom in what older people have to say. So I think, yeah, so that's a shout out to everyone to listen and to be curious.
R. And for the old people to be curious too. That is a death knell, when you're not curious about the other person. And you don't really want to hear what they're saying. You're listening in order to talk, prepare what you're going to say, rather than to understand what they're saying.
Conversations with your adult childrenAnd I can see that it's particularly important when it's like parent and grown-up child, like old person and middle-aged child, because you've got a lot of history, and some people find it hard to stop being a parent and telling people what to do. It's a big shift really, isn't it, when your children really grow up?
K. Yeah. And I think we can really, you know, there's a potential to get lost in whether we're getting it right or not. Oh, yes. Whether we're too engaged or not engaged enough. And I thought about this recently. I'm not sure why I did, but my mum used to always ring early on a Saturday morning, when the kids were little and you'd kind of long for a bit of a sleep in before you had to get up. And I thought, why is she ringing now? But obviously it was a space and time for her to connect. And there was a need for her to connect. And I can't remember how I resolved that particular issue, but I did think about those weekly calls.
And I'm mindful now of how I connect with the children. Is it too much? Is it not enough? But I think, I think that's where it loops around to, it's okay to ask. Just to check in and say, hey look, this relationship's important and I want you to know that I care about you and I love hearing what's going on in your life. But is ringing you once a week, is that not enough? Or is ringing you once a week, is that too much? And I think just having those conversations out loud and asking questions, rather than being stuck and making assumptions about what our children or our friends or our siblings may want or not want. Because it's very easy for us to misinterpret and for our wires to get across. So I think always notice and always ask.
R. Oh, that's just what I needed to hear. That's exactly what I need to do with my sons anyway. Because especially if you make the terrible mistake of comparing yourself with other amazing parents who are in touch every day or yes, I think of myself as a kind of neglectful parent. But do they think that? I have no idea. No idea.
3 more opinions about good conversationShhhhhh. Listen to the people.
- I think it just has good questions, you know. That's a good conversation.
- A good conversation? I don't know. Something that involves maybe a bit of humour into it definitely. And maybe also a bit of different opinions so you guys can actually see what the other person, like, you know, perspective as well.
- I agree because I like to go out and you know, you surround yourself, your friends are all very much like yourself. So having a conversation with a different person and all the insights they have, I always love doing that, especially if I'm at the pub or something.
R. I wanted to ask you, can you say a reason why you got into this particular work that you do now which is helping people to resolve disputes and, yes, to negotiate a satisfactory outcome?
K. Gosh, I think I had a set of skills and I was keen to move away from my other work and create something new. And I'm fascinated by human behaviour. There you go. I'm fascinated by human behaviour. And why we say what we do, why we do what we do, and how we can kind of get it wrong. And often when we get it wrong, there is no malice or ill intent. We've just missed each other for some way. That's often how disputes come to be. And I think it's around having understanding people's different thresholds for conflict and how they respond to conflict. And some will dive in feet first and have a good old conversation. And others will run for the hills because it feels too difficult. So assisting people in conflict to navigate good solutions for both parties or all parties feels a real gift, actually, and enormously satisfying because no one wants to be in conflict.
R. Yeah, that does make perfect sense, I must say. And two of the things that I've immediately picked up from what you've been saying is that listening matters more than talking. Sure you've got to talk, but listening is huge. And the other thing is keep asking questions. Actually, I'd like to ask what kind of questions? Because some are better than others, aren't they?
Asking questionsK. So I think areas that you have genuine interest in, I think just asking questions for the sake of questions if you're not that interested in the answer is probably a question to avoid. So think about points of similarity. Stick to non-contentious issues. I wouldn't dive into political conversations if you know that you're sitting on opposite sides of the fence. Not if you're wanting a conversation. I mean if you're wanting a robust and interesting conversation, be ready for that. But I think even that's negotiated. I think it's worthwhile checking in, getting consent. “I'm really interested in your perspective of this government, how do you think they're performing, what are the bits that they're doing well, what are your concerns?” I think that's where your interests lie and perhaps where their interests lie.
R. And also the kind of questions you're suggesting, they're not, who did you vote for? Yes or no questions, are they? They're questions where the person will be able to open up and talk about more.
K. So we're talking about open questions as opposed to closed questions. But even with those open questions, when we're inviting a conversation, we can sometimes get a short answer. But you can stick with that and say, tell me a little bit more about that or I'm kind of curious about that. Or why is that important to you?
Which is a question that comes from Peter Block actually. He says that we spend too much time having conversations with people in our own bubble. And the best thing that we can do is step outside the bubble and ask some curious questions to help understand. And I think that seems to be more important than ever now in our increasingly divided society. So to listen and be curious, people might hold different positions to you, but it doesn't mean that they're good people or bad people. It means that they hold different positions. And the best way we can move away from the extremes is to really engage with thoughtful and curious questions.
R. Thoughtful and curious, yeah. I like that. I was really surprised at the wide variety of opinions people had about what a good conversation was. Because, as you say, one person said, a good conversation is a debate. She was very emphatic about it, so she loves a good, robust conversation, shall we say, politically, I bet, as well. All the way to the person who said, a good conversation should be more listening than talking.
So between the lot of them, I can't remember, maybe eight or nine, they came up with all sorts of different ideas and they were all true. So that ties into what you said about, don't get too tied up about whether you're doing the right thing or the wrong thing. I'm not going to [?] because we're nitpicking here, because I really want to know. And I've got a couple of things in mind that I'm going to try harder with. On the other hand, look, just be curious and if you really want to have a good conversation, just be interested in the person. Is that right sort of thing? And listen. Listen, listen.
K. Yeah, that's the best way of building a relationship. Because we listen with a view to think what our response is going to be. So we listen with half an ear and the other part of our brain, and the other part of our brain is going, what's some kind of witty response. I can have to listen and yes, that happened to me. So I think the idea is to listen for listening sake and explore that conversation and dig a bit deeper and then see what your response is.
Good conversation is a learned skillR. I'm thinking you're describing a conversation which is a performance because we kind of think we're on show. But we're not. We're engaging with another person. We're not on the stage. We're not. Yeah, but we can't help it. We're human. So it is something that we actually have to look out for. Although some people are born with this wonderful gift of listening. Yeah, I think not many.
K. No, I definitely think it's a learning skill. I was the youngest of four and I think that meant that I was a bit of a watcher of people.
R. My fifth youngest sister, she really listens to people and engages with them. She just loved radio. Yeah. And here I am doing a podcast. But I don't have her gift.
K. Well, we all have different gifts.
R. We do. And we have to be just perfectly satisfied with those.
You've taught me a lot in such a short time. And it's on record. It's on record. So I can go back and relearn it when I forget because I do because of my short-term memory. There you go.
K. But I think even that can be an invitation for people too, isn't it? If I forget stuff, please remind me where I got lost because again, people are cautious and don't want to offend. And so might say, no, we were talking about something else, Rachel. We bounced off here and bounced back there. But I think it's about giving permission to say, "Look, sometimes I'm going to forget stuff." So can you just remind me where I'm up to?
R. That's wonderful. In fact, I've got to say that, for at least two or three years now, I've realised that if I'm talking, I should never start a sentence with a subordinate clause because I forget how I was going to end it. And if I do manage this amazing thing of a complex sentence and I get right to the end, well, I feel very proud of myself. That's very helpful. Well, I've got to let you go now. So thank you so much.
K. My pleasure. It's been a joy.
Kirsty's dinner party conversation strategyR. You know what? I think I knew all along what I have to do now that I'm old. I have to be interested in other people. It means listening to understand and stop pretending to listen. I need conversation as listening, not as performance. I — don't get me wrong. I think performance conversation is terrific fun. But it can get right out of whack.
Now, what I forgot to ask Kirsty was about her excellent strategy for including everyone in a dinner party conversation. Kirsty and I are both part of a neighbourhood group who meet often for a Sunday roast. We don't roast each other. We do the opposite really. We just talk and have dinner. But towards the end, the host, they ask a question or suggest a topic that everyone takes turns answering. Very light weight. It's not scary. It's not an exam. It's a change of pace, I suppose.
So last time it was, “What did you do last week that was memorable?” And we all take turns to answer at our leisure. Nobody interrupts or changes the subject. And it means that in a group of eight or 12, everyone says what they want to say and everyone gets listened to. What a treat. [Sound effect]
Here's a poem about old people having a conversation. It's by Rachel McAlpine. That's me.
A poem: How older people talkWe take anecdotes and turn them to the light.We polish them in private.They are touchstones. So it goes.
The rhythm of our talk is one of ocean waves.Someone starts with a great niece who is pregnantor a barking dog and one by onewe queue up with our fables to help our troubled friend.Nothing is solved, but variousscenarios are tendered.We have a bottomless pool of parables.We follow the way of Miss Marple.We use the stuff that life dumps at our door.We don't stand back. We go straight from A to Z.
Children have anecdotes toobut you could fit them in a lunchbox.They are missing the end of the story,the very bit they need.
That's all, I'm done, 'bye for now. Please follow the podcast if you expect to be old one day. Click on those three little dots or whatever and share it with one person who's old already. Bye. [Music]
Introducing a wise woman who approached her own extreme old age as an ongoing project. Eventually, she saw herself as a sturdy centenarian, even though she was frail. She developed a systematic method for dealing with the ever-increasing age-related changes in her body, mind and life. She was learning how to be old, and she blogged about it every week for 5 years. To her surprise, she found that facing old age honestly and openly was satisfying, even exciting. So today on this podcast I will read from the book-of-the-blog, and riff about it. I will do this again, because I am over-enthusiastic about Doris Carnevali's work.
- 2m 30s Introducing the sturdy centenarian
- 7m Birth of a blog
- 10m 10s Turning 95
- 13m Learning from these chapters
- 15m Highly engaged listeners
- 16m 20s Comments from readers
Contact and links* Comment on my website: scroll down to the Comments section. * Email me: rachel at writing dot co dot nz * Facebook: Rachel McAlpine, Learning How To Be Old * Happy 100th birthday, Doris!
Transcript for Learning from a Centenarian[Music] Hello, I'm Rachel McAlpine, I'm 84 and I'm learning how to be old. And for some years, one of my most important teachers has been Mrs Doris Carnevali. I've never met her, although we have exchanged quite a lot of emails. Now Doris was an Associate Professor Emeritus at Washington University School of Nursing in Seattle and from the age of 95, she blogged pretty much every week about her personal experience of aging. I learned so much from Mrs Carnevali that I wrote a book based on her blog. She carried on blogging till she was a 100-year-old blogger! is a rarity by which time she perceived herself as frail in some ways and sturdy in other ways. So I called my book The Sturdy Centenarian.Sometimes I won't have a guest on this podcast and instead I'm going to just read you something from this book, The Sturdy Centenarian. I'm sure I'll interrupt myself sometimes to make my own comments on the book to be realistic. I won't be able to stop myself because, well, Doris always gets me thinking and I know you're out there. So I want to share my thoughts with you. (If only you could share your thoughts back. You could do that on my Facebook page, Rachel McAlpine Learning How to Be Old.)Anyway, I boiled the blog down to about half and I included about exactly 116 entries. Let's call them chapters. Hey, they might be good bedtime stories. Maybe I should try and read in a low, soporific voice that will send you to sleep. Maybe not. We'll see. OK, off we go.The Sturdy Centenarian, Aging and Thriving with Doris Carnevali, edited by Rachel McAlpine. This is the introduction.Meet the Sturdy Centenarian. When I discovered Doris Carnevali’s blog, I was 78 and she was 96. There I found answers to some massive questions about extreme old age that I had never even thought about. How do you bake cookies when you're a walker? How do you maintain your self-esteem? Is old age really a state of stagnation? How do you build new relationships? How do you establish your credibility? How do you tackle the mounting impact of old age on your daily life? Why is it better to use neutral language when you talk about aging? Or how can a failing brain mitigate the impact of a failing brain? Can you thrive even when you are frail? What are the pleasures of extreme old age, if any?Doris Carnevali used to be a professor at the Washington University School of Nursing and co-author of a textbook on nursing geriatric patients. Then she herself became an explorer, a resident and a reporter in that mysterious country, old age. Central to her story is a system she has developed for coping with the relentless advance of normal age-related changes. She calls this engaging with aging or EWA. Her system attracted attention from academics and carers but her blog is primarily for those who worry about their own old age and those concerned about elderly relatives.When I stumbled across the blog it had 86 followers and I immediately wanted to make her work more widely known. And Mrs Carnevali very generously agreed to this. For this I'm deeply grateful any misinterpretations are mine alone and I apologize for them sincerely.This is the result. Her own brilliant writing condensed into a book. I've selected and edited 116 posts and as an experiment in solidarity illustrated some using my non-dominant hand. The drawings are intended to resemble me, not the beautiful and elegant Mrs Carnevali.There's no escape. If we're to live a long life, even a healthy long life, our body, brain and spirit will inevitably change. In extreme old age older mentors are extremely rare. In Mrs Carnevali we find a role model, cheerleader and guide for our ultimate developmental tasks. Those of very old age. No wonder so many of her readers express a sense of relief. She is not the only centenarian who can encourage those facing old age with fear, denial or despair. But as far as I know she's the only one who shines a light on everyday life in extreme old age and shows us a positive way to deal with the challenges. Rachel McAlpine May 2023So that was the introduction. Now I'm reading the words of Doris herself from the blog.
The sturdy centenarian at 95, birth of a blog.Necessity is the mother of invention.When one door shuts another one opens.Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.Never name the well from which you will not drink.
Number one. Chapter one, we'll call them chapters, right? Why blog?I am a 95 year old woman who was coasting along with the flow of life and then one day thought, I wonder what difference it would make if I were to engage actively with the process of aging. Scrutinize the parts of it, interact with it differently. And that's just what I began to do.I called this new process of scrutiny and response, engaging with aging. And it began to add zest, intrigue and comedy to life. (There are times when aging is just plain ludicrous).I had already had a long career in nursing and had also co-authored three editions of a textbook, Nursing Management for the Elderly. This gave me a gritty practical education on aging, normal and otherwise. Consequently I had the both the advantage and the burden of knowing what aging would surely bring … and what it might bring in my advancing years. Or rather, thinking that I knew. Because until I became old myself, I didn't know the half of it.Then someone challenged me to start a blog. And since then I've written something for the blog almost every week.One more piece of background. I've been remarkably healthy and I've lived alone for the last 12 years in a home my husband built 68 years ago. I have the active support of two sons and their families. I'm white from a Swedish background living in Seattle. In other words I'm privileged. However from my nursing experience I have some idea what daily living is like for those who are not so fortunate.I'm not a scientist although I do consult the literature at times. This blog will consist of my ideas, discoveries and strategies as I explore this business of living with my own aging. They will show some ways one person lives with aging and being old but certainly not the only way.Chapter 2 Turning 95I'd never ever thought about being 95. Never expected to live this long. Never aspired to it. Somehow it just happened. One mid-January day there it was. This was the first birthday when I refused a party. Much to my family's dismay. I wanted to spend the day at home alone getting used to the idea. Not sad, not happy, just a bit bemused.Well, now I've had eight months to get used to being 95. Actually it's quite fine. With that landmark birthday behind me, I find myself feeling remarkably free to get on with my life. Sometimes I use the 95 as an excuse to avoid things I don't want to do. That's legitimate.Surprising me too are vistas of life in earlier decades arising in my thoughts. They seem to be from a 95 year old's distant perspective. They intrigue me. They invite exploration. I find myself not just wanting to examine them but to engage with them. That's new.In my professional life I wrote a lot for academic publications. The transition to writing for a general audience has not been easy, but as one of my professors once said, as long as you're green, you're growing.So here I am, green and growing. Homeschooling myself in writing non-academic blog posts about my personal experience of growing old. And explaining how I moved from just getting older to actually engaging with this aging process. How I examine what's happening to me and figure how to deal with it. Who knew there were new adventures in store for someone as old as me?[Music] Okay so that's how Doris began her blog. Um and I'm, look I have to talk about it, forgive me if I get a bit over-enthusiastic but I'm an awe of her.Why blog? Indeed, she asks. Well, she did get technical help from her granddaughter but still — blogging! She’d never done that before. Even just writing something new every week, that's a completely new sort of project. As she said she found it extremely hard to switch from writing academic pros for an academic audience to a personal , less formal style for a non-academic audience, a general audience. I think you can still hear the professor in there but she's a professor talking in a small room, not in a lecture hall. Yeah.Um, well, she had a very strong reason to blog. It was a burning desire to up people's knowledge of extreme old age from the inside and to show them that, in her words, it's not such a bad rap. She wanted to get out of the nursing bubble and out of the academic bubble and reach ordinary people who are struggling with their aging bodies and minds or perhaps watching their parents do the same thing or possibly caring for people who were struggling. You know, without that passion Doris Carnevali’s blog would have fizzled out after a few weeks like most do you know. It's pretty unusual for someone to carry on blogging about anything for five complete years. I mean it faded a little bit towards the end but most of the time she was blogging every single week. Yeah.Now as I said, when I first discovered her blog it only had 84 followers. But what followers! It was so bizarre because every post had multiple comments despite the fact that Mrs Carnevali never answered them. Maybe she answered about twice in five years but, even without any response, there were readers who hung on to every word.I think what's more remarkable still (considering she was just writing about one subject the whole time) right at the end after five years she was still coming up sometimes with completely new ideas. Just an amazing woman.Well, if she asked herself, Why blog? here's another question: Why book? Why did I take the complete blog, cut it down by half, massage and curate and edit it into an easy-to-read book for the general public? Most of my friends and family think that was pretty weird. What's the point? they said. I don't know what do you think? I couldn't help myself.I'm going to read you comments from the first two weeks of this blog. Oh but first I hope you noticed one very important paragraph where Doris points out that she is a privileged white woman. It's something I struggle with a little bit because it's so tempting to think that we can all have a lovely, healthy, happy old age like Doris, entirely through our own efforts. To ignore all those factors, the ones that are out of our control. You know, political, socio-economic, environmental factors that have a big part in determining the quality of our old age, whether it's good or bad. These things are out of our control.I just got lucky and so did Doris. And Doris knows she's got a head start with her own home, an education, good support network, family and friends. So do I, maybe you do too. But you know that's not the same for everyone. That's kind of a background to the entire blog and for that matter, to my own podcast.CommentsSo, comments. I'm going to read out the comments. They built up over time but I can read quite a lot of them for the very first two blog posts. I mean, it's like a dream for most bloggers or podcasters for that matter, to get like 10 comments for the first two times you ever publish something. But that happened to Doris. Here we go.First one. "I am so looking forward to learning more about engaging with aging. The title drew me in because it sounds like a wonderfully offensive rather than a defensive way to approach aging."You notice these comments are not just 'oh good work thank you' or 'I like that' but these are readers who are really taking the whole thing in. It's interesting to me.Here's another one. If we can look at our aging journey and be more amused than angry I'm all for it. Right here's another one. "Good read for aging baby boomers as we enter the next chapter of life. Thank you.""Doris you are an inspiration. Brie, almost 10, enjoyed pieces we read tonight. Thank you for sharing." That's not what you expect is it? That a 10-year-old enjoyed that blog. Probably enjoyed listening to something with her grand-mother."Doris, may we use parts of your blog in our senior newsletter?" Get that quite often."Just found your blog. I'm very grateful to have done so. You are certainly an inspiration. At 84 I'm always looking for such as this blog of yours."Yeah, it's very risky to say something is unique but by the time I found this blog, I'd been looking and looking and looking and looking all over the world for all the blogs and articles and social media stuff about aging and I had never struck anything like Doris. So that's why I learned from her."I'm intrigued by your comment, 'I moved from just aging to actually engaging with this aging process' and I'd love to hear more about this transition. At 71, I'm definitely aging. Having worked in geriatrics for many years, I know I want to be engaged in life to the end — but engaged with the aging process? I'm not sure that is the same thing."Oh maybe that was too many comments. You’ve got your own ideas but here's what I learned from them. No doubt many people, lots of people, find the very idea of old age boring at best. But the comments tell me that other people are hungry for some kind of inside information, a report from the front. And that's the very reason why I'm doing this podcast. Fancy that. Your ideas for topics will be welcome.Okay that's all for today please share this centenarian's words with your parents or your adult children. Back soon, bye for now. (upbeat music)
POSTSCRIPT
Her blog has also been converted by her friend Gretha Cammermeyer into a ring-bound A4 manual in two volumes, practical for nurses.
Today I’m learning how to be old from Jan Bolwell, a 74-year-old dancer and actor. For 25 years she has directed the Crows Feet Dance Collective, an amateur group of women who are dancing as we age. I asked Jan lots of nosy questions. You'll find out:
- her grounding in two opposite types of dance
- how to direct untrained older dancers
- dancing as you age with two hip replacements and a double mastectomy
- how audiences respond to older dancers on stage
- and the extraordinary story of how Crows Feet began.
Finally, I learned something very special about self-consciousness while talking to Jan. At the end of the interview, it’s a great tip for when you start to notice yourself getting older. And it’s got nothing to do with dancing.
Crows Feet Dance Collective on Facebook
Hi, I'm Rachel McAlpine, I'm 84 and I'm learning how to be old. When vehicles get old, they need a certificate to prove they are safe on the road. Today I’ve got my grandson Hugo with me, he’s 12 years old and he’s going to help me renew my personal Warrant of Fitness. Like most young people, Hugo does know a lot about getting old, and he is very helpful. He is checking whether I can safely continue being out and about on roads and footpaths. Am I well maintained? Will I crash? Am I a danger to traffic? This seems reasonable, because my old body is a vehicle for myself, and I motor around on my legs.
Hugo and I find human equivalents for tyres, lights, bodies, seat belts, suspension, and so forth. We have a contest to see who can keep singing the longest. This is to test my lung capacity. Hugo sees himself as a Nissan GTR and I'm a Baby Austin. Or maybe an old VW Beetle. To pass our personal Warrant of Fitness we old people-cars don't need to be perfect: we just need to be as safe as possible for another 12 months.
Some organisations already offer a proactive medical check that they call a warrant of fitness. Buildings in New Zealand are required to have a Building or Housing Warrant of Fitness. Now I think we need a Warrant of Fitness specifically for old age. Of course it must be optional, not mandatory. One day! In the meantime, this rough-and-ready test will have to do.
This old saying is highly relevant: "A stitch in time saves nine." We heard that all the time in the 1940s, and everything got mended. Cars, socks, shoes, houses and now humans.
Another rare car-related blog post from me
Today — we’re lucky! Listen as oral historian Judith Fyfe shares insights and tips from her experience of recording older voices and stories. She says these recordings are like photographs: they capture a moment in time.
She answers questions such as, why even do it? Why are older people more valuable subjects than teenagers? Best process? Potential problems? And what to do with that precious recording? I also get some personal advice about recording interviews for this podcast.
I hope she'll inspire you to sit down with an older person, maybe a family member, maybe a friend. Establish trust, agree in writing about the purpose, get a good microphone, record in a quiet place, ask questions and above all ... listen. (Because "Tomorrow is too late.")
I’m Rachel McAlpine and I’m 84. Like you, I'm Learning how to be old.
- Recording stories for a memoir
- What I learned from interviewing nonagenarians
- Life Stories Enhance the Quality of Life for our Seniors
- Monash University study reveals health benefits of listening to elders' stories
PS If you enjoy this episode, please Subscribe to my podcast and give it some stars. This is all the reward I ask for my work.
Hello, I’m Rachel McAlpine, I’m 84 and I’m learning how to be old. I want to say a few words about this podcast. It was sound asleep for a couple of years. Now I am reviving it, with a new mission!
It seems to be humanly impossible to imagine ourselves much older than we are. In fact, we all tend to think of ourselves as YOUNGER than we are, a lot younger. Our Dad was absolutely typical when he said, in his 80s, No, he didn’t want to go to a retirement home because they were full of old people. He wasn’t one of THEM.
But sooner or later, if you’re lucky, you’re going to become that peculiar creature,an older person. Even, an old person. You will be one of THEM.
Look, the alternative to being old is being dead. You know that, don’t you? And yes old age is weird. It's not what you signed up for. But you will discover that being old is mostly, most of the time, for most of us, heaps better than being dead.
So why not be really alive? Why not make the most of this great gift?
When you start to suspect that you will be old one day, this podcast will keep you company. We will soften the blow. We will be friendly. We will share tips and tricks and insights.
Just try it, listen to a few episodes. It takes a while to warm up to a new podcast.
Hit the SUBSCRIBE or FOLLOW button now so that you don’t lose track of us, and take it easy. (Don't worry, it's just as easy to opt out.) Some terrific guests are lined up ready to join us. They'll help you to get used to the idea of being old, and to flourish well into the third act — or fourth or fifth act — of your life.
A word of warning: I’m inclined to get a bit earnest. On the other hand, I giggle a lot. You have been warned.
We're all learning how to be old, and knowledge is power. Anyway, that’s the plan. Welcome aboard!
- Why I have given new life to my old podcast
- 53% Of U.S. Adults Don’t Fear Growing Old—Study Finds People Actually Fear Less As They Age (Forbes Health, 10 Jan 2024)
- Fear of ageing is really fear of the unknown (The Conversation, 1 Feb 2024, Chao Fang and Alastair Comery)
We're all learning how to be old and old people are walking books of knowledge (Image: public domain, Wikimedia)
Today I’m lucky — you’re lucky!—because Lois Daish is here to talk about some aspects of food and eating in old age. Our food habits necessarily change as we start to get old. In Lois's long life as a food writer and cook, two things have changed radically: our national food culture and her personal food habits.
If you’re a Kiwi, you will be very familiar with the work of today's guest. She is one of New Zealand’s most distinguished and beloved culinary guides, actively involved for darn near 50 years. She has been a restauranteur and a regular writer for the New Zealand Listener. She has always been a splendid cook. Her most recent honour occurred in 2023, when she was installed in the Hall of Fame for Women in Food & Drink, Aotearoa New Zealand. Lois Daish is an essential ingredient of our national memory of food.
From her long experience, Lois has seen many changes in our national food habits. She also talks about the most mundane effects of aging, such as farting as you go up the stairs. Can you guess what the nursery rhyme is today?
I'm one of 6 sisters who will all be over 80 by the end of September this year (2024). I quizzed us all about age-related changes, good things about aging, and tips and tricks for dealing with life in old age. Some answers surprised even me! And guess which nursery rhyme goes with a family of six girls?
- Old legs: of beauty and utility
- Once we were special because
- How perception of time changes with age (Assisting Hands Home Care)
Popular fitness instructor Trudi Fleetwood says that exercise is all about moving — in old age, too. And having fun at the same time. She remembers her grandmother doing Jazzergetics and her mother following a Jane Fonda LP, wearing leg warmers, leotard, and a belt. Rachel talks about "the Taylor legs" and sings a nursery rhyme, appallingly. That did at least involve moving her mouth, and after all, it's all about moving in old age.
At 75, Rachel made multiple attempts to find a gym that suited her. Again and again a gym would move, or close, or change so that she had to try again. Finally she joined a community gym, Club Active, run by the Wellington City Council. This one suits her down to the ground for mixed ability Pump and Pilates classes and a shower after swimming in the sea. There she found a variety of great instructors, including Trudi.
If you're learning how to be old (and whether you know it or not, you are), you know that exercise performs miracles. If "exercise" is a scary word to you, change the word to "moving." That includes walking. Getting off the chair, if you can, nodding your head, scrunching your shoulders, bending your knees or wiggling your toes.
- Your favourite kind of exercise is the only one that works
- Don't take exercise like a pill
- The full story of the Les Mills Gym empire
With the current rise in research on ageing and longevity, there's a flood of news and tips about living long and well. If you feel overwhelmed, you're not alone. The results are intriguing, encouraging, and revolutionary. But why did ageing became a hot topic thirty years ago? And how can we deal with this information overload? I've been thinking about this and have come up with a couple of suggestions. And a poem. And one woman's impressive vision of how her life will be at 95 years old.
- HALL: A comprehensive database for human aging and longevity studies Oxford University Press
- Slowing human ageing is now the subject of serious research The Economist.
It's time I began reviving and revamping this podcast. I feel sad whenever a favourite podcast stops — yet I let mine lapse. This episode of "How To Be Old" explains a shift in my attitude to podcasting. Once I did it for my own amusement. Now I'm focused on you, not me. Because we're all learning how to be old: no expert has all the answers. Welcome to the second life of How To Be Old, the podcast! Let's chat.
For an approximate transcript of this podcast episode, go here
Many people say they have fear of old age, not death or dying. But my role model is the woman who wasn't afraid of open heart surgery—or loneliness—or lazy brain. This poem has danced off the page and has its own chorus and a subterranean tune.
Scottish super-poet reads "Gravity" and talks about poems, people, and his future old age. Recorded November 2019 and still as fresh as a purple thistle head.
About Michael Pedersen: The Scottish Poetry Library Neu! Reekie! Kim Hill interviews Michael Pedersen
A young poet reads a poem to an old poet. An old poet learns about eating green apples with chili, and a new snack is invented. You can read the original poem on my blog.
In a storm of regrets or negative thoughts, when you feel broken or haunted, a poem can help you to mend. That's informal poetic therapy. Today Kintsugi by Janis Freegard and When Befriending Ghosts by Siobhan Harvey are poetic therapy for me. Which poems do you turn to? I'm Rachel McAlpine, 81, a New Zealand poet.
Kintsugi by Janis Freegard
You will break and break and keep breaking until you’re on the floor Wondering whether you can ever rise. (You can.)
You’ll break until you feel you may never be whole again. (You will be.)
But you’ll be altered. Now is the time for kintsugi, the Japanese art of repairing with gold, mending the cracks
in smashed ceramics to make something more beautiful. You’ll reassemble yourself and use gold to seal the fissures.
You’ll be better than before. Don’t stay damaged — That’s no use to anyone. Don’t give yourself more pity than you need.
As soon as you’re ready, heal. (On second thoughts, You may never be ready. Do it anyway.)
Trust me when I say: it’s going to be better. Trust me when I say: This isn’t your fault. This shouldn’t have happened.
But it has and you couldn’t have stopped it. Make sure whatever happens next is good. Really good.
Prepare your lacquer pot, Mix in the gold.
Janis Freegard's Weblog
If Befriending Ghosts Siobhan Harvey
If they are the legacy left in lost code If they are the beginning of broken soul
If they are the bitter end of love If they are the sour taste of rejection
If they are the other side of the story If they are the curses cast into oblivion
If they are the chemical rendering of light If they are the sky at the point of breaking
If they are a house troubled by occupants If they are a dwelling upon difficult territory
If they are my crying out of pain If they are my tearing open old wounds
If they are my looking deep inside If they are my viscera, blood and bile
I will give them oxygen and time I will give them fuel and flame
I will raise them to ruin, to wreck I will raise them as lovers, as pets
I will wear them up like a leash I will wear them down to a dust
I will be their armour, their second skin I will be their padded cell, their asylum
Siobhan Harvey
Today I'm reading a few poems that I wrote for particular friends or relatives—not love poems, just a message of delight or affection. Have you ever written a poem like that—and given it to them? That's pretty special for both the poet and the receiver.
Wonder what children think about hell, careers and catastrophes? Sit back and listen to three poems with some insights into their private worries.
Theology of hell
I was worried. I was seven and Daddy (as we called him then) was tucking me into bed. I was worried about hell. I wasn’t sure how bad you had to be.
So I asked him, “When I die will I go to heaven or to hell?” Not a chatterbox he thought before he answered. We always could see him thinking with his eyeballs and his mouth.
He said, “I don’t believe in hell for God is a loving God. But if there is a hell, I’m sure that only a very very few would go to hell, and only after doing something very very bad.”
“Like what?” I pushed. Again he pondered. Then he said, “Like killing a person on purpose and never feeling sorry.” He was a vicar, and he knew.
He kissed me goodnight and left me healed. I knew for sure and certain I would never kill a person, not on purpose and if I did, I would be sorry— so I wouldn’t go to hell.
Vocational Guidance
You have to say something when they ask and they always ask. But I haven’t decided yet.
I might be an anthropologist or I might be a lady with a nail polish shop or I might be both, and in my spare time
I might be a ballerina. When I get tired of being a ballerina I will have a baby called Hannah
and she will be my friend. But I can’t have two friends called Hannah so I will give my baby Hannah
to my other friend, Layla. Actually I won’t get tired of being a ballerina.
Elsie's Scale of Terribleness
Having no one to play with is four out of ten if it’s only a single day. A sunburn on your bones is an eight. Dropping your lunch in the dirt is a five. A zombie attack is about a nine A ten would be if my dog died (that would make me very sad) or if all the humans of the world got destructed by the God of Mud but Granny dying would only be a five, because she’s old.
All poems are from How To Be Old, for sale at any New Zealand book store (if not, they'll order it) or buy direct from The Cuba Press.
After 2020, we may need help to achieve a happy new year. Sit back and listen to 3 poems about happiness that might help you to find it or notice it squatting in your life.
It's not easy making new friends but when old friends move or die or cut contact with you. Two poems with some ideas that might help at those times.
A poem about my mother's elaborate plan to end her life at 70 by throwing herself down a crevasse in the Franz Josef Glacier or Fox Glacier. I can't remember which. End of life choice is complicated and personal. Her own choice was purely imaginary when she was young.
Take a few minutes off and let me read to you. Today, I’ll read some tiny little poems that I call fortune cookies. They are feather light. Maybe one of them is about your own life. You’ll know it when you hear it. The poems are from How To Be Old published by The Cuba Press.