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Tracy Marlowe | Chief Executive Officer | Creative Noggin Agency

You can find Tracy on Linkedin

Together we talk about building culture, branding and hiring on the artisan podcast.

Tracy Marlowe believes in the power of women. Early in her career, Tracy worked in offices where women were often considered “less than” for juggling their careers with family matters. In 2008, with a new infant at home, she began building Creative Noggin, a fully remote advertising agency.

Her mission was to empower smart, passionate women to do work that they enjoyed while balancing their home life with the support of a family-first work environment.

Tracy firmly believes that a woman's potential knows no boundaries. Women are often underestimated yet research shows that women in business consistently outperform their male counterparts. Tracy has seen that creating a culture that nurtures women benefits her organization and clients as well as the world at large because women are pivotal, influential and touch so many around them.

Tracy has over 25 years’ of expertise in marketing small and global brands, alike.  Her agency, Creative Noggin, has grown from just over $100,000 in sales the first year to upwards of seven million dollars in revenue. The agency is living proof that a flexible, human-centered workplace is not just good for employees, but also good for business.

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Dr Lola Gershfeld is the founder of EMC Leaders, a training and consulting company focused on working with managers to master the art of relationships. She's also the author of The Emotional Connection, The EMC Strategy, as well as The Connected Culture, How the Art of Relationships Leads to Positive Results.

Check out Dr. Lola's Youtube, Blog as well as Podcast for additional info

Lola:

I started in the business world very young. My husband and I built three electronic manufacturing companies and so I always took the role of a leader.

I served as an HR manager, and a CFO, and then, because I was building teams and I was, really feeling confident about myself. Then I was asked to serve on this private company board, and, I couldn't believe what I was actually experiencing.

And, I remember, I think the moment for me was like sitting and watching these board members attacking each other. And, you know, the CEO was sitting next to me and I turned to him and I said, why do they do this at every board meeting?

And, he said, quietly, I think it's because they care about each other. And, and I thought to myself, what? That, that doesn't make sense. That's so silly to express care about each other like that. But, what I really found is that they got really stuck in this pattern, the dance that they would do every board meeting.

And it was really awful because, one person would shut down, the other person would attack, and then we would just go circles and circles. We would have eight-hour board meetings with no progress and imagine how exhausting that is. The funny thing is all of these people who were on the board were very smart and very intelligent and had scientific degrees and they could solve technical problems.

And that was really fascinating for me how is it possible they could solve such difficult problems, but they could not talk to each other. So, as you can imagine, I started to really look for a solution because I didn't enjoy this experience. And, I went to the bookstore, I got these books, you know, Good to Great, Primal Leadership, Speed of Trust, all of these books were on my desk. I was diving into them and studying them, trying to figure it out. And every time I would come to the board meeting, I would teach maybe communication skills or set some rules or boundaries, but nothing actually worked. And so I decided to go back to school and find the answer because it was really fascinating to me.

And I not only saw these disruptions in the boardroom, but I saw it as an HR manager, you know, people would come to me and sit in the office and I would empathize and I would try to understand them. And guess what? A few weeks later, the same pattern comes back again.

So I really wanted to understand what was happening and how is it possible. So I went back to school. I got my master's, my doctorate, but the aha moment came when my husband invited me to this workshop, couple's workshop called Hold Me Tight. It was created by Dr. Sue Johnson, and she's the developer of the emotionally focused therapy.

Okay. I'm, I'm sitting there in this couple's workshop and I'm watching this instructor talk about attachment signs and about patterns, how these couples get into and get lost in this pattern and takes over their relationship and they just become stuck in this conflict over and over again.

And I'm thinking to myself, wait a second, we have exactly the same pattern in the boardroom. Workplace conflicts are all about attachment. Workplace relationships are all about emotional disconnection. And I cannot tell you, Katty, I, I was on fire at that time. I flew to New York. I took, you know, the externship with Susan Johnson.

And from then on, I was just immersing myself in all of the science, all of the knowledge about attachment. And I was actually bringing it to the boardroom to work with boards and teams. And miraculously, things started to change. The transformation was happening right in front of my eyes.

And so I decided to create tools because as I was doing the techniques, people didn't even have the language, didn't know how to express themselves. So I created tools, I created the training and then I created the certification program, which I taught at Chapman and I taught at Pepperdine University.

I see that every time people use the EMC process, which is emotional connection, stands for emotional connection, I see people are happy at work, they have the tools, how to get back to connection. They're a lot more engaged and I feel like there's hope.

I want people to know there's hope because I felt very helpless and hopeless in those moments. So I want people to know that there is a roadmap. There's a way to get out of conflict and you don't have to be stuck.

Katty: It's amazing because you could have easily walked away from that board. And not just made it easy on yourself, but then instead you actually leaned into that and decided, okay, there's a solution here. I don't know what it is, but I'm going to find it. And not only did you find it, but you built it from there. So pretty amazing because workplace conflict, it is such an opportunity for everyone to be able to find the tools and the language to be able to work through that, you know.

We work with creatives all the time and sometimes just the disagreement on what the font should be or what the color should be. Because we're each bringing our own idea of art, of creativity to the table, just that simple thing, can blow teams apart. To be able to have that opportunity to turn away from it and not personalize it so much is so, so important.

You talked about emotional connection. Let's talk about that because, on your board, you had people who are very high on the IQ side of it, but maybe it's not so much on the EQ side of it from what you said. So what does emotional connection mean? How can we create that at work in our business?

Lola: Well, I think the first thing is obviously to recognize that when we work together, we impact each other. I mean, you just mentioned, “ it would be nice when people don't take it personally”. It cannot be! People do take it personally because relationships are personal. And especially when we depend on each other and my survival depends on you as a manager to continue to help me to grow and develop and, and be in this world as me. But if I don't have a connection with you, I am now a threat, right?

My brain, my, my, my amygdala, the mammalian brain that we have is going to be constantly vigilant for threats because the connection, the emotional connection that I have with you is part of my survival code. It is wired in survival.

So when I don't feel connected, that's, that's so incredibly important for people to get that when we work together, all of our senses become very, very attuned to each other, to the facial expression, to the words we say, to the tone of voice. Everything is so magnified. When I have a secure connection with people, with my manager, my colleagues, and my coworkers, I feel safe. I feel safe to express my ideas. I can go out in the world and take risks. I can be open to share my mistakes. That security of our relationship gives me that safety that you're not going to abandon me. You're not going to reject me if I screw up and make a mistake. I won't be alone in that experience.

You know, one of the biggest fears we have is isolation, is being alone. So our emotional brain is very attuned to that cue, to that emotional signal that we send to each other. And when we don't have an opportunity to clarify that message, that's when we get stuck. For example, you might be coming to work and stressed from something that happened at home. And then, you might be walking to your desk without saying hello to everybody, or to your coworker. And then they interpret that, “Oh my gosh, Katty is upset at me. Something is wrong with me or something is wrong. She's mad. Maybe it's the thing I sent her yesterday”. Right? So the emotional music of fear .... I see Katty is upset and that starts to perpetuate that negative thought, which starts to perpetuate the protection, which starts “When I come to the meeting, I'm going to be on guard”. And then you are gonna say why are you not engaged? Why are you not saying anything?

Well, oh my gosh, because we don't know how to talk about these conversations. When we do have, that's why I think the process is so effective because it gives you a structure. It gives you a process. It gives you a language where you can say, Hey, Katty, I got scared. You know, I'm not attacking you, but I can, I just want to clarify because I got scared. You didn't say hello, and I was wondering, you know, is everything okay now? You don't say, Oh, you know, why are you making such a big deal? You don't respond that way.

You know, they're saying, Oh, thank you for sharing that. That must be difficult for you. Of course. No, I appreciate you sharing your, your experience is valid, right?

So. The first thing is when we understand how we impact each other and that it's okay for us to share that vulnerability from the impact point of view. And we know how to respond to that in emotional connection, creating safety. When we are continually creating a bond, we are creating that safe space.

Saying like, “I'm still here for you. You are important to me. I care about you”. That continuous feedback loop gives me the confidence to come back to you again and gives me the safety next time Katty may come in and not into herself. I'm already going to have that experience saying, no, no, it's okay. Katty is just maybe having a bad day. It's not because I did something.

That is how people become more secure in their relationships. So the emotional connection process is really based on that attachment theory of John Bowlby, Carl Rogers, Salvador Minuchin that really looks at the relationship and says …For us to thrive, for us to feel calm, we have to have a secure relationship. We have to have a way to create a conversation where we can gain our emotional balance back. And the fastest way to gain that emotional balance is to reach for each other.

I used to go around the block all the time when I was stressed, you know, as an HR manager, like, Oh my gosh, you know, you cry, you go out, you walk around and then you calm down, but you never have that conversation to repair the connection. So you just kind of like shove your emotions down. And then what happens? You think that it's okay, but guess what? It accumulates and it becomes your raw spots. And the next time somebody says something, you blow up like a blast. Exactly. You say to yourself, what happened to me? Yeah. Why, why am I like that?

So these bonding conversations that we teach people in the process, they actually not only just heal the connection, they heal relationships where people can actually get rebalanced and heal themselves from being outside in the world and being in danger of being criticized.

Katty:

I think we sometimes forget in the workplace, at home, with friends, we all bring our histories to the table. So a particular outburst or a particular reaction has so much more depth underneath it than that first interaction or altercation. So I think you're right. We automatically go into protect mode and we automatically go into just the stories that we start telling ourselves about why that outburst happened.

And then I get a sense that it's very easy for resentment to start building if we don't have that conversation right from the beginning. You talked about impact, that every relationship has an impact. And I know that you talk about impact and feedback and the correlation between the two of them.

I wanted to get into that with you because obviously in the creative space when whenever our talent does a pitch or presents an idea, art can be very subjective. How would you suggest giving feedback, getting feedback, and just kind of what to do with that feedback, so that its impact is a positive impact, even if the client doesn't like the direction, that it's not taken personally. It's just really about the piece of art versus, you!

Lola: That's a really good question because that there's an art in itself, right? You have to kind of like maneuver those conversations and Katty, I have to again, go back to the relationships. When you are paying attention to the connection and constantly, address the attachment significance of that relationship, it will be much easier for people to process the feedback.

So, in attachment terms, we know that the brain asks this key question in attachment relationships. And the question is, are you there for me, A R E, are you there for me? So, the acronym A R E is actually expressed with, are you accessible to me emotionally? R, are you responsive to me? E, are you engaged with me?

Basically, what this means is, can I reach you? Will you be there when I need you? Will you give me your attention? So, and it comes in through in vulnerable moments.

So that ARE question, when it is answered with a resounding yes, you have a secure relationship. When the answer is a no or a maybe you have an insecure relationship.

So if you answer the question, no or maybe in your relationship with a client or with a your coworker, with your employee, and if it's no, and maybe you have to know that there is insecurity in the relationship. Number one, you have to know that. So you have to learn how to balance yourself, which means you have to learn about your triggers and your raw spots and emotions.

So when you go through the process, you learn all of these tools and all of becoming more self-aware, what is happening for you? So you come into that conversation more balanced. And when you share the feedback or impact, I like to say share impact, don't share feedback. What does it mean to you? How does this work impact you?

Because that comes from a vulnerable place, that comes from a place where they didn't do anything wrong, right? It removes the judgment, it removes the disappointment, it removes the shame effect. It gives them the impact, saying, look, this is how it impacts me. It's nothing that you did anything wrong because you have to constantly reassure them that there is a connection, that you care about them, that they're important to you, and that their feelings are valid.

I'll give you an example. My daughter called me yesterday, and she's 40. Okay, she's 40 years old. She calls me, and she says, Mom! I was sharing with you the day before something that I did, and you said something. You said, Oh, you need to be consistent in this. And when you said you need to be consistent in this, that really hurt me.

And what I did is I grabbed my form, you know, the EMC reconnection form, and I'm, because my emotions start to escalate. So I'm losing my balance. I'm grabbing my form so I can just follow it and be in emotionally responsive to her. I want to be able to sit with her space and hold her space. And the form helps me to do that.

So I'm saying, okay, so the raw spot that hit for you in that moment is like you being judged. Yes, mom, that's it. Now she knows the process, she knows the language, so it's easier. And so it made you feel like you were hurt. Yes, I was very hurt and I felt defeated, she said, and I felt very surprised and ashamed when you said. Oh, and what is that image? Oh, it felt like you were stabbing me in my heart. All right. And look at the impact it's having on her, right?

And like, wow, my gosh. And where do you feel it in your body? Is it in your heart? No, it's in my stomach. Oh, stomach. Wow. That tells me that there's a shame piece happening because we know the bodily sensation and the emotion behind that. And then what's the worst fear for you? Oh, I will never be good enough. No matter what I do, I'll be never good enough. Oh my gosh. And what's the fear about me as your mom, or you will never be proud of me? Wow, that makes sense. Wow. You're so strong and courageous.

Now I'm going through the form and I'm telling you the answer and the questions are there. And so what do you do? What are your thoughts? Oh, I'm thinking I'm going to have to prove to her that I am good enough. I'm not going to eat. I'm not going to sleep. I'm just going to work and work and work to show her. Oh, that makes sense. Wow. That, that, that's so hard. Your feelings are valid. And what do you need?

I need to know mom that I am good enough just the way I am. You are good enough. You're good enough just the way you are.

it took us about 15 minutes to have this conversation and it healed her, it connected back, it gave that reassurance that I love her. I care about her. She was enough courageous. She felt safe enough to share those vulnerabilities with me. And now we move on.

Katty: So how do you do that at work where maybe in someone's mind there is an imbalance? Because somebody is somebody's boss or a client is paying your invoices. And it's not necessarily a friendship, or a, you know, or a personal relationship, but you're trying to stay in a professional relationship. But you're still trying to minimize that imbalance. How would you go about that? Because I could see in scenarios where maybe a marketing campaign was rejected by a client. And the talent would take it personally. How would they even be able to come back to someone who's their client or their boss and be able to mend those fences or at least take away the personal hurt from it.

Lola: Well, we, we have to process the emotions in order for you to heal that hurt. In order for people to speak that language of emotional connection. They have to know what are the steps. It's like dancing right in dancing tango. For example, I love Argentine tango.

And so when I started to learn, you just learned the steps first. So, you learn the steps, but then you learn the music. For example, with my coworkers, every time I bring a new coworker, I give them training.

You know, we're going to learn this, but this is a process where we share emotions. So when you have a client that is, for example, rejected your work and you feel out of balance in that way, you come to each other. You come to each other and say, hey, this was so hard for me. This was really rejecting and here's my raw spot that hit for me.

And here's some emotions that, that was, was I felt, and here's my body sensation, here's my image, and here's my fear, and this is what I start to think, and this is what I start to do when I have those emotions. And this is what I need.

Now, when we come together, imagine team members and managers and can come together to each other, how it changes their relationship, how much stronger they become as a team. And it's slowly, slowly, they feel much more comfortable. They can trust each other more.

I cannot tell you the number of companies that have called me and said, we are so happy we learned this process before COVID. During COVID we were able to still stay away from each other, but be emotionally connected because we have the tools.

We could speak a language of emotions, we can identify emotions. Emotions are the most important thing in conflict or in any disconnection. Lisa Feldman Barrett, she said that the more granular you can make emotion, the less overwhelmed you are. So as you organize, this is what the process is. You organize your experience, and emotional experience gives you that structure.

So the more there's surface emotion and softer emotions and primary emotions and the image and fears and body senses, all of that gives you relaxation. All of that gives you a sense of I'm not alone in that experience. And when I'm not alone in that experience, my prefrontal cortex opens up because my amygdala relaxes.

Now I can see options. I can see that the client didn't reject me. So all of that cognition starts to be more accessible to us when our emotional brain is at rest. But we cannot, we cannot tell ourselves, Oh, don't worry about it. Just relax.

No, because you have to address the emotions and you have to talk about it. And you have to know that the other person is not going to turn away from you when you open up and say, I was so hurt. I was so hurt.

It's okay. It's okay that you're hurt. Thank you for sharing that you're hurt. You're so strong and courageous. We're here with you. You're not alone in this. These are powerful, powerful words. I can't wait to hear that.

Katty: Well, it's really creating the space where people can step into it and have a, and feel confident and safe enough to have that conversation.

Lola: Oh my gosh. And Katty, people blossom. They blossom once they know that they're not alone. They, they, they have all this motivation. You know, companies create benefits and perks to motivate people, but I think they're missing the mark. You don't need to spend thousands and millions of dollars to give free lunches and free, you know, whatever cleaner service and massage service fitness, no, you have to be emotionally connected, you know. Teach that, learn that and you're going to be great. Your people are going to be flying and thriving in the workplace.

Katty: Yeah. It's very interesting. I think to go back and take a look at where every member of the team falls on that emotional intelligence or emotional connection spectrum, some are probably easier to lean into it and for some, it's really something that has to be taught and practiced over and over and over again, because it doesn't naturally, or, or maybe just previous hurts is going to put up a protection for them. But to be, to be able to really pull that team together to kind of use your own words, bringing, you know, pulling the team together versus pulling them apart. Some of these tools to be able to utilize that is, is powerful.

You take us through, some specific language in terms of what it is, and how we approach a conversation. You've shared some of that already. What if it doesn't land, at what point is our responsibility? Let's say I come to you and I share with you a hurt or that something happened. And if there's no responsiveness on your part, what is then my responsibility there? Where do I go back to you or what do I do at that point? I stepped forth to resolve the conflict and to make sure that the relationship could be repaired. But if it's not reciprocal, what do we do?

Lola: It's hard, right? It's, it's very hard. The thing is we still have to work with that person. So, it's very important for us to first of all, maybe find somebody else who can process emotions with you and can be there for you. So you can come back to the person.

You definitely need to come back, and you need to come back in a safe way. I mean, obviously, when the person doesn't respond to you, not because they don't want to connect with you, because they feel overwhelmed. So, it's hard for us to empathize with that, when we are out of balance. So that's why I say that if the person is not available, you do the process with somebody else, get your balance, get you feeling heard. And so you don't feel alone.

So you can come back and say, look, our relationship is important to us. This is what we call bonding conversations, right? You create additional safety, you know, in your mind, you know, cognitively that when people work together, they want to be connected because of the dependency. Because our brain turns on these bonding needs and we want to be, we long for that connection. So we start to give space to the other person and say, I know it's uncomfortable for you, but you are important to me. You're important to this team. You're important to our success.

Now, my tone of voice is calm. Right? My facial expression is calm. That's because I'm not activated. When I'm triggered and I'm activated, my facial expression is, expression is stressed. My tone of voice is like pointy and it's very difficult for the other person to hear that congruency that I really care about you.

I'm attacking you and you really care about me? No way. So we need to first of all, I recognize that we get into these patterns, what we call a negative cycle. And that's one of the very important things, people learn in the process is to recognize when is that cycle starts.

Like for example, the most common cycle is what we call pursue, withdraw, you know, when, when one person, for example, starts losing that connection and doesn't know how to talk about it. So what they do, is they start to come across as critical. So they push for connection, right? But it's actually that protesting the disconnection.

So what we do is “Why are you not talking to me? Why are you not responding to me? It's like, right, what's going on? What, what's happening?” And so the other person then tries to defend themselves and then they shut down.

So you have a pursuer who's pursuing and then you have a shutdown person who is withdrawing and avoiding, and so that's the cycle. So when you start to recognize that you can come back and say, look, we got stuck in the cycle. You know, it's not your fault, it's not my fault, it's the cycle's fault. And then you start to create safety for that conversation. Look, I want to know what happened to you. I can tell you what happened to me. And then we can be there for each other.

That's the fastest way is when we reach for each other and we can get out of that negative cycle. So that's A R E, are you there for me? is we are practicing how to be accessible, responsive and engaged emotionally. All emotional variables.

Katty: Being emotionally connected versus being defensive. So, so how do you go about if in a situation where you may have a large team, and there are some people on the team that you connect with right away and you're friends and you go after work and you go for drinks and you go for dinner, and then there are other people on the team that you just don't have that friendship, you're coworkers, you're not friends. And there are some relationships that, that cross from just being coworkers to actually having friendships develop as well. How do you navigate then not letting, not, isolating someone because you're not inviting them to your after work gatherings? Where's the fine line of being co-workers and then suddenly becoming friends?

Lola: Yes. Katty, that's a very tough question. Make that as a habit for your team to talk about emotions. To talk about the raw spots because when you have that opportunity on a regular basis, you know, let's talk about the triggers. Who got triggered last week and what are the triggers? What are some of the raw spots? What are the emotions? You start to actually learn about people. You start to open up like people have never heard of you.

I remember doing this, session, with the CFO and a manager and the manager got very stressed because the CFO would attack her in meetings and shows the manager stopped talking to her completely. And so the more she stopped talking to her, the more the CFO got anxious and upset. So she became really, really like very aggressive towards her. So the manager went around, went to the HR department, and filed the complaint.

Well, the CFO was so, she was so devastated. She couldn't sleep at night, she was just terrified that she was going to lose a job and she was going to have this on her record. Well, the company called me and I did the reconnection session for them. And during the session, the manager did not want to share her emotions first in front of the CFO.

She was like protection and I said, I get it. It makes sense of course you would not be able to share. It's not safe for you. Can you just say that?

“I'm scared to share. I don't feel safe to share my emotions”. This is a first step to just acknowledge what is happening with you right now. “I can't trust you”. Right? That's, that's a good place to start.

When the CFO shared what happened to her when the manager filed a complaint, how she couldn't sleep, how she couldn't eat, she could, she was devastated. The manager opened up. The manager said, I had no idea it had an impact like that. You were so aggressive towards me, I thought you like you have no human emotion.

So as you have these practices of conversations where people have this language and when they share, they need to know, they need to respond. And I, we teach that how to respond, you know, to keep saying, thank you for sharing. You're so courageous and strong because in the workplace, it's not customary to share vulnerability and emotions.

We say, you know, be vulnerable, be vulnerable. No, if I'm going to share my vulnerability, people are going to look at me and just walk away. No, we have to learn how to say thank you for sharing. That must be so difficult for you. You're so courageous and strong. And then when they share, they feel accepted. They feel connected. They learn about each other. They start to feel like, wow, my manager has actual emotions. I had no idea.

You become human, right? Yeah, we become human. And now we have a whole new way of looking at each other. I mean, I can literally show you in the process. of where each person starts to see each other differently and where the cycle starts and how it ends.

When I do sessions, like I'm, I have a hundred percent confidence in me that I know exactly how to get people back to connection because I use an attachment framework roadmap. It never let me down ever. So I feel like managers need to learn this, this structure, that attachment significance, because then it will only make them a lot more effective..

But we have to catch those moments. We have to pay attention to those moments. And we have to feel confident. We know what we're doing in those moments.

Katty: Those are powerful words. You're so strong. You're so courageous. Yeah. So how do we catch ourselves when we're being triggered?

Lola: Oh, it's so hard, Katty, because the emotion is so fast, boom, boom, boom, and you are in the cycle.

Katty: Yeah. I was saying something you mentioned was like our, with our teams. They can see our expressions. They know, like, our, you know, our face maybe says a thousand words. How do we, as managers, how are we, how do we become, without having gone through the training, how can we become more cognizant of what our body language is portraying? Maybe I'm using the right words, but you know, my face is just negative, you know, giving, giving feedback with this. How, how do we catch ourselves, from those triggers?

Obviously, like without, without going through the training, for the person listening here and they're like, gosh, these words really are impacting me. I need to be mindful of when I fly off the handle, how do I calm myself down? Because you said you go, you used to go around the block as an HR manager, where you went for a walk and you'd come back.

Lola: Yeah, but that was not effective. It was, it only worked for a day, Katty. No, what's effective is to learn how to have these conversations. In order for people to understand how they impact each other, they have to hear it from other people.

They have to have these bonding conversations to know that this is what happens. This is what, what you do that impacts me, and this is what I do that impacts you. That's, we all do that, but we get stuck in that the more we don't know how to talk about our emotions, how to reach for each other, how to talk about our fears and needs. We have, that's a responsibility, I feel this is a biggest responsibility for us is to learn about our emotional experience. To learn how to recognize and articulate that fear and how to know what is it that we need. We have to learn how to ask for that need.

And sometimes people will not be there to give us that need. And it's okay. I mean, I remember having a conversation with my husband, you know, and I said, I need to know that it's not my fault. I didn't do anything wrong and he would say, I cannot tell you that, but I can tell you I love you. I said, no, I need to know that it's not my fault. And he said, I can't tell you, but it took him time, right? And now he can say, it's not your fault. He recognizes it's the cycle's fault. We both got off. Okay? It's the cycle's fault. It's the cycle's fault. It's the cycle's fault.

Katty: I think a great place for people to start is to pick up a copy of your book. Because I think in here, you have some really good tips about not saying it this way. Instead, reframing it and rephrasing it and saying it that way. And just giving some tools to people. Where else can people go to find you, Lola? And just learn a little bit more about ARE and conflict and the tools that you bring to the table.

Lola: Yeah, they can go to emcleaders. com And we have a master class that actually live sessions the master class live sessions. So that's a that's a great way tolearn we have online courses. We have a book We have a youtube. I have a youtube channel on emc leaders podcast, obviously.

It takes time for people to understand this process, to learn this process, but once you have the tools, it's like you have a new world in front of you. It's like, Have you done zipline, Katty? Mm, yeah. You know, on a zipline, when somebody straps you in, you feel secure and you can go through the chasm and say, like, whoo, you know, you can see the world, you can pay attention, right, to the whole beautiful thing.

Well, that's the same thing with secure relationships. When, when our buckle is not secure, we are very scared. We can't grow, and that's what I see, especially with When people become more connected with each other, when they have this opportunity, you don't have to do these bonding conversations all the time.

Once you kind of heal your raw spots that happened in that relationship, you start to become more and more secure in that relationship.

We are in relationships. We grow in relationships. If we take one person out of that relationship and say, well, this person is behaving themselves badly. Well, of course, they are, you just took them out of the relationship. You have to always look at the relationship. Relationships are key for us.

And if there's anything wrong, performance, motivation, productivity, you know, whatever, absenteeism, turnover…Relationship, always start with a relationship because that is the key. So I welcome people to reach out and to explore. We have tons of resources and we're here for you to learn and discover yourself and others.

Katty: Beautiful. It's really like learning a new language. Yes. Once you've learned it, then you can actually communicate it.

Lola: Yes, exactly Katty. And then your life becomes fulfilled because connection is what we want.

Links: EMC Leaders, The Emotional Connection, The Connected Culture,

Check out Dr. Lola's Youtube, Blog as well as Podcast for additional info

The artisan podcast is brought to you by the good people at artisan creative, a digital creative and marketing recruitment firm with over 25 years of experience, placing freelance and full time talent across multiple verticals. We look forward to meeting you learn more at artisancreative. com.

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Will Greenblatt shares key public speaking techniques to transform your interview, pitch, or presentation.
Find out more by following Will on LinkedIn

I'm so excited to welcome Will Greenblatt to this call today. He is the co-founder of the Outloud Speaker School, an agency of actors who teach public speaking and communication skills to entrepreneurs, executives, and to candidates. He has repeatedly spoken at Google, Wayfair, and Boston Dynamics, to just name a few, and has provided coaching to over 4, 500 individuals virtually worldwide.

His clients have won numerous pitch competitions and raised capital by honing in and raising their skills in publc speaking and pitching. He's here to talk to us about how we can do that in an interview process, how we can do that when we're pitching new clients or pitching new projects. And brings all of that with the experience that he has gained as an actor.

He started acting when was seven years old. He speaks five languages including Mandarin Chinese and learning Urdu in the process. So with that, so excited to introduce Will and take our conversation to the next level.

Katty: I met Will a number of years ago. I'm part of an organization called EO, the Entrepreneurs Organization, and Will came in to teach us all facilitators how to be better public speakers, how to facilitate meetings better, and how to really hone our presentation skills.

Will: Yeah, it's really nice and I love what you've been doing all the stuff I get on Linkedin you know following you because we haven't actually spoken in so long, but the power of the personal branding, the telling your story, getting your message out there makes me feel like I've kept up with you in a way.

Katty:. Thank you. I appreciate it. Yes. The power of social media and how we show up and how we represent ourselves on it is powerful. Let's just jump in and talk about it. I know you speak with executives, with corporate teams and talk about how to represent themselves, how to present themselves, how to, be a strong public speaker as well as for pitch competitions and how to promote themselves that way.

So obviously the audience that we're speaking to here today are the creatives and the talent that we work with who on a regular basis have to pitch. They have to pitch their portfolio, they have to really pitch their creative thinking when they're presenting clients with ideas and where they're presenting options.

So I really wanted to jump into that. I know your acting background has been a huge force in kind of what you've developed, but why don't we start from the beginning and bring us to where we are currently today from your career trajectory?

Will: Yeah, the good thing is I just told this story on a stage as part of a public speaking competition two nights ago or three nights ago.

So I have a handy, short, and condensed version. One of the biggest tips I always have with people is to tell your story with less, fewer words, right? So many people want to throw everything about what they're thinking, whether for it's a pitch or a presentation or just telling a story, they give too much detail.

So I'm going to try to do, take my own advice and give the shortened version. When I was seven years old, I started acting in film and TV. My family were actors, so I fell into the business kind of through them. And I acted all the way through my childhood, through teenage years, through high school, and I thought, okay, I'm going to go to theatre school.

I went to National Theatre School of Canada. I thought I'm going to get my conservatory training, and I'm just going to go to Hollywood, and that's going to be my life. And my brother passed away when I was 17, and it threw my life off course, I was like really grief-stricken and I didn't know what to do with myself.

And so when I went to theater school after that happened, I just wasn't in a good place mentally and I realized I didn't want to be an actor. So I ran away from home searching for something like what I was going to do with my life. And I discovered teaching in Spain. I taught English for a year and a half.

And then my first startup was in China. I knew some other English teachers, we started an English education company in Hangzhou, China. So then I discovered entrepreneurship and the long story short is that I came back to Canada and was like, okay, I've got acting, teaching, entrepreneurship. And then I realized, okay, if I use the acting & teaching background, I can teach entrepreneurs and other creatives and business people to tell their story with the kind of skills that I've been honing my whole life, really, since I was seven.

So that's the abridged version of the whole story. So it's an acting and teaching background, and then a focus on entrepreneurship, which is about how do you talk about problems, solutions and prizes. And all public speakers can benefit from that entrepreneurial mindset of somebody has a problem, you've got the solution, and then you have to sell the story of the vision, the prize.

We'll get into that later in the storytelling frameworks. I think for your audience, the creatives, it's really important that they don't just think of themselves as a certain type of person. Still, they embrace the role of a storyteller, a salesperson, an entrepreneur, or an intrapreneur, if they're working at a company. This idea that they've got to get people to buy in with the way they talk with their words, with the power of their speaking voice and their story and their personal story.

Katty: Yeah. So let's talk about that. Because as you're telling your abridged version of your story, just from a visual perspective, as I'm looking at you, you're taking over the whole screen, like you are animated, your energy is coming through, your enthusiasm about what's coming through, what you talk about is coming through. So let's just talk about that. Because so much of our communication in our world now is through digital media and Zoom and Teams and so forth. How can we use this space as our stage to really present ourselves best?

Will: The easy answer is you can actually look at the little box where you're showing up and see what that looks like. And so I have an extra light here. I don't know if it'll show on camera, but you can probably see it moving around on my face. So I made sure to set that up beforehand just to give me a bit more light. I've sat in front of windows.

I'm making sure that I'm in the center and that my head is barely touching the top so you can see my shoulders You know too many people look like this on the screen. And if you can't see me if you're listening to this I've slouched down. You know that some basic framing things some lighting things, some audio things. I'm speaking into a decent mic for this as well, which is really important.

Those technical things are important. And then, it's the same concept as speaking in any situation, really, but it's how committed you are to your topic, and can we see, hear, and feel that with the way you're talking?

So one thing I know is that I care about my message enough to not worry if people think I'm cool and laid back. I don't do that because I'm so much more interested in my message getting out there than I am in what people think of me as a person. I know that if I put effort into being clear, and excited, and enthusiastic and showcase my passion, I have a better chance of people receiving my message and receiving it positively and remembering it.

So you know, in this space, you can work on the technical side of things, but just remember why you're passionate about what you're doing and then let people see that. It's not as easy as that, but that's the idea. That's what you want to commit to and not try to hide and be humble, be too quiet, be too laid back.

But you have to find a way to show that you are passionate. And if people don't feel your passion, they don't feel your commitment, they don't feel your energy, they will write you off very quickly. And it's such a shame because these are brilliant, talented people who have a lot to offer. And then they open their mouths and people go, eh, it's a shame.

Katty: Yeah. You have to be able to sell yourself and sell your creativity, sell your ideas, sell your strategic thinking, whatever the job is that it that's being required.

But it's interesting what you're saying. One of our core values at Artisan is enthusiasm in life and work. So your whole body language exemplifies that body language speaks volumes. So if you are not enthusiastic, not just with the words that you're using, but how your body presents then that's going to come through, passion. You use the word passion. I'm using enthusiasm, but they're really like the love of what you do and how you're going to get it out there.

Will: So what I try to teach is just being aware of that and starting to like intentionally choose how you want to be. And it's not about being fake, but it's about reminding yourself, giving yourself permission, allowing yourself to show your passion rather than squishing it down, which we too often do.

Katty: Yeah. Actually, what comes to mind as we're talking is when we're receiving feedback about our work. The pitch is happening, your presentations is happening and maybe the client says, "oh, I don't like that color or oh, that's not what I was thinking" …how to keep ourselves from retracting and still be able to present a counter in a positive way to be able to win them over versus just totally losing it.

Will: Yeah, or being defensive which I saw on stage at a tech festival in Toronto a couple of days ago. A founder was asked a question and he just got really defensive. It was a very reasonable question and his answer was reasonable, but he thought he was being attacked even though I didn't feel that way from the question. The investor said something like, how are you going to make money? And he went, "It's very common to take a 20 percent fee. And we're going to take that 20 percent fee!" But he didn't need to be that defensive. He could have just said,

"That's a great question. We take a 20 percent fee." Done.

Katty: How do we control our emotions when we're triggered like that? What are some techniques?

Will: The best one is breathing into your belly. I get a really bad stage fright. So when I've been an actor, this was the way I allowed myself to go on stage without having panic attacks before opening night. And when you're nervous, you stop breathing deeply into your belly and you start breathing, hyperventilating shallowly into your chest, and then of course that makes it work worse because you're getting less oxygen your brain thinks you're fighting and it's a whole vicious downward spiral.

So if you just stop that at the source, and intentionally breathe deeply into your belly (Breathe In) and then out (Breathe Out), even just doing that once You're like my voice is slowing down now and getting deeper because it just has an instant calming effect. And if you keep remembering to do that throughout and just training yourself to start to look for those and be aware of those moments when you feel Triggered or as my therapist would say Activated which I think is a great.

It's not always bad being activated. It can be useful, but in general, we don't speak our best when we're activated, and definitely not when we're triggered. When our emotions get the better of us, we're reacting instinctively, we’re not thinking through how we want to speak. And then yeah, we're probably more likely to show anger, defensiveness, fear. So yeah, breathing into the belly is really important, and you can do it without showing people you're taking deep breaths.

People are always like, oh, how do I? But then won't it look like I'm nervous if I'm breathing deeply? It's you just listen. And somebody asks you a question, you just go "Yeah, that's a really good question", and you breathe as you're thinking and answering it, and you have a lot of time to do that, you don't have to jump right in with an answer, but just, “Yeah, that's a great question”, and you can stall with a phrase like that to give yourself time and then go into it.

Katty: I can see that being so powerful in an interview. We have a candidate who is getting ready to meet with a hiring manager. And sometimes I think there's a pressure, especially if you have a half hour for that interview, there's a pressure to get in as much as you can during that time. So patience with, and just slowing down our conversation is sometimes not top of mind, but what you're saying is actually forcing the conversation to just, sit.

Will: Yeah, a question I like to ask a lot for this specific example is, how would I talk to this person if I didn't want anything from them? Because so often when we're in these high-pressure situations, we're trying to get a sale, we're trying to have somebody approve of something, of a request or a work. We want something from our audience members. There's a power imbalance, but it also tends to make us a bit needy, and a bit on edge, and we want something so badly from the person.

But it makes us change the way we really talk, and it makes us change our energy. And, the power of this question is you go, what would I say? So Katty, we're talking right now. Neither of us is trying to sell anything to each other. We're just having a conversation because we're both interested in the same topic.

And so you and I, there's no power imbalance. There's no problem. There's no fighting or jostling for position. We're just enjoying the conversation but we know we have an audience. So we're still trying to be clear and interesting to listen to and interesting to watch, which is, I call this thing Authentic Stage Presence.

It's this term I like to use a lot. It's like, how can you be interesting to watch and listen to, but also as real and natural as possible, like you're hanging out with your friends at a bar or in a cafe or in a living room. And so you want to think about that when you're in an interview or in a pitch or presentation.

It's like you want something from this person. But if you didn't, what would your voice sound like? How fast would you talk? How loud would you talk? Would you smile? Would you make a joke in this moment? Do that. If you do that, it puts you at ease. It puts them at ease. And it feels much less like a transactional conversation.

And those transactional conversations, when they're, when they don't feel that way normally go so much better because the person just feels like it's a real human conversation. And yeah, any pitch, anything where you're trying to convince another person and you inherently want something from them, try to just pretend you don't and think about how you would communicate in that situation.

Katty: Pretend that you don't, but still infuse the passion and the energy in that conversation. So they know that you want it, but you're not nervous about it.

Will: Exactly. It's about showcasing your passion because that's what you do all the time. So I'm a big proponent also of you want to try to be consistent with the way you talk. So many of us have a different voice with our friends, with our family members, with our work colleagues, with our we have all these different personalities.

It's like a collage of different magazines that I'm just pasting together and I don't feel like a real person. So I was just like, okay, what is my voice and I started really trying to work on that and make it as, as consistent as possible, obviously, it's going to be a bit different.

I'm not going to talk to my best friend the way I'm talking on a podcast. But the difference for me now is a lot less because I've really worked hard on finding my voice. That's my advice too, is find something you're passionate about it and whenever you talk about it, whether it's to your best friend, your mom, your partner, or the CEO of the biggest company on the biggest moment of your life. Speak the same way.

All this stuff is normal. We're human beings who have evolved to communicate with each other in different ways. And so everything we're doing is just human.

But it's just becoming aware of those things that we're doing and saying what of those are going to be, are going to serve me really well in my career, and my ways of communication? What are not making me either feel so good about myself or getting me what I want? So it's choosing a bit more intentional ways to be both real but also showcasing your intelligence and your passion.

Katty: Love it. Thank you I remember when we had met some years back you, you had a framework or a methodology, but maybe that's the, maybe that is the right word for it, that you really talked to the audience about your tone, your pitch, your volume, like all of those things going to make, can make or break whatever it is that you're trying to communicate. Do you mind to talk to us a little bit to take us through that?

Will: 100%. I call that the Speech Settings.

There's five vocal speech settings that I like to look at, and two physical body language ones. The five vocal ones are volume, pitch, pace, clarity, and inflection. And just to make sure everybody knows these terms, volume is how loud or how soft you are. Pitch is the high or the low of your voice. The pace is how quickly you're talking or how slow. The clarity is the how clearly you're enunciating or how much you're mumbling. And the inflection is like the pitch, but it's how much it moves. So how much does your voice go up and down or how much does it just stay the same?

And so all of these have a zero, which is like the lowest they can be and a 10, which is the highest they can be. So, what I always show to people is I show this image and it looks like a DJ's mixing board, with those little sliders that go up and down. And I just say just like a DJ or an audio engineer, you can adjust any single component of the sound or the image, in the case of the physical ones at any time.

And it makes a big difference. So often when I'm working with people, especially in a group setting, I'll say, give me your pitch and they'll give me their pitch or their presentation. I said, that was great. Now, everybody, where do you think their volume was at?

And the person maybe is a really quiet talker. And they'll be, people will be like, three, four, and I'll be like, yeah it's a little low. So I'll say, okay, what I want you to do is try it at an eight or a nine. And the person always goes, no, I couldn't do that possibly, because they've lived a whole life, being quiet. Just try. And then eventually they get there and they declare their pitch in this loud volume and they are a completely different person. And the whole crowd goes, Whoa, because it's crazy to watch this one little thing.

And just to add the two body language ones, those are physical expression, which is your arms and your body, and then facial expression. And then the last one sometimes I don't always talk about, especially when we're on Zoom, is groundedness, and that's how well you stay, that's how well your feet are connected to the floor versus like shuffling around and pacing nervously and stuff. And the point is to become aware of these things and not get stuck in any of them and think, Oh, I should speak at a seven for volume.

People say, what's a good volume that I should speak at? There's no such thing. What do you want to do with your words? Do you want to scare someone? Yell at them. Scream at the top of your lungs.

Or do you want to stop your dog before they run onto the road and chase the ball? Use a high volume. Do you want to comfort your child because they're really scared and they've had a nightmare? Don't shout at them. Use a low volume. You know what I mean? We know this stuff instinctively in other areas of our lives. When we're talking about family or friends, we do this stuff naturally.

What I'm advocating for is that you, you take that wisdom that we all have as human beings. Some of us are better at it than others. But we just be more intentional about it, especially when we're on stage, and say, Okay, I want to get this audience excited, I can be a bit louder.

Okay, I want to warn this audience about something, I can slow down and get a bit serious on my face. Whatever that intention is of what we want to do with our words, we just we are able to adjust the speech settings to achieve those objectives. And that takes a while, but it's amazing how much can be done just by starting to play with those.

Katty: How would you make that adjustment in an interview setting? I guess where you're sitting your room, the space that you're at. Like you have to really be paying attention to the physical environment, your proximity to the interviewer, if it's an in person one. Yeah. Like that physicality probably has to play into that.

Will: When I was in China doing my first startup, one of my co founders and I did a double pitch, like we were pitching our thing to a potential customer. It was like the biggest pitch we'd had so far. And we were in this boardroom. The thing is when we had practiced it, we had practiced it in our apartment, which was actually bigger than the boardroom we were in randomly.

And my co-founder had practiced it as a sort of theatrical kind of presentation, but then at the last second, they put us into the small boardroom and we were just sitting across the table from these potential customers. And I think because of my acting background, I was able to adjust without even thinking about it.

And so we had our laptop, we didn't even have the projector, we were just showing them our presentation on a laptop instead of on the projector. So it was much more intimate. And I was like, yeah, so this is what we're doing. And then it was my co founder's turn, and I think because he was nervous, he was like yelling. And I didn't know how to stop him and I didn't know what to do. It was fine. It was, a bit awkward, but he was really speaking way too loudly. And I think because he had practiced it in a certain way, he wasn't ready for the curve ball and it just, it wasn't the right volume.

He didn't adjust his volume for the, as exactly as you said, the physicality, the proximity, the environment. And so paying attention to that is, is really important. And then also switching up in the middle of your presentation or your talk let's say, you want to tell a quick story in an interview, you mentioned an interview, right?

You want to tell a quick story, they always ask you this question, what's the time you overcame a difficulty? So a good way to do that is to say here was the problem, here was the difficulty, and then I found the solution. So the first half of that story is bad. It was a problem. It was scary. It was hard. You want to show that kind of the difficulty of it.

You don't want to be like, yeah, it was really tough. You want to show how tough that situation was. So you might have a different inflection to your voice when you're talking about a problem where you're saying it was really bad.

We had lost $10, 000 worth of inventory. I was on the hook for all of it. My coworker was freaking out. I didn't know what to do. And then you've discovered the solution. And your voice can change. And we figured out what we wanted to do. And then you can smile, and your voice can drop down or can go up and get excited.

However you want to do it, there's no right way. But you shouldn't tell the whole story in the same tone of voice, volume, pace, pitch, facial expression. Because it's not appropriate for the message being conveyed. So you want to not only pay attention to the environment, but also what am I actually saying?

Exactly. We need variety. We know we need to listen to variety if we're listening to a speaker or if we're talking to somebody, if it's the same tone, we just get bored and nod off. No matter how interesting the tone is, if you hear the same thing over and over again you're done.

Katty: I'm flipping the script here, not as the interviewee, but as the interviewer. The recognition that interviewee may be nervous or scared or overwhelmed or in awe of you and the company and like all of that. I could see that even from an interviewer's perspective, how changing your tone can help somebody just be put somebody at ease or calm them down versus these are the facts of the job. This is what you need to do. And that could totally freak somebody out. So the kind of the back and forth between two people, like that's, I'm seeing, I'm hearing the power of the voice in this thing, right?

Will: Absolutely. Let's talk about body language real quick. I think the piece that people miss a lot in body language, they, we've listened to words, but maybe not necessarily to what somebody is saying non verbally. And what is it, 55 percent of our communication is non-verbal, like it's a huge percentage.

And we're communicating oftentimes on a WhatsApp, on the Slack channel, on email, we're not even seeing each other or on social media, for example, we're not even seeing each other. How do we take that? That you've talked about so beautifully and translate that into when we're not having the body language component.

Will: If I understand your question, are you saying how do we communicate better in our writing with each other when we don't have access to body language?

Katty: Yeah. When we're not seeing each other, for example, we're on the Zoom, but the camera's off.

Will: So I would make a distinction between those two forms of communications, audio and writing. With audio, yes, it's very important that your tone of voice does some heavy lifting that where your face and your body language can't. If you're on the phone, if you're cold calling people if you are catching up with somebody over the phone, or if you're on Zoom and your camera's off you want to be a bit, you want to be even more expressive.

But again, I want to bring it back to this idea that the way you talk about yourself and your work, it's by default, you are slow, clear, excited, not slow, but, slow enough to be understood and you pause after important information.

You develop this way of talking about yourself and your business, where no matter who it is, no matter what it is, you can access that kind of passion and clarity at a moment's notice, because it's just you've trained it into yourself and it's real, it's, you care about what you do.

But also I would say for audio, we'll stick with the audio first. Okay, imagine that people can see you. So if I turn my video off right now, you can't see me anymore, right? But I'm still using my hands to gesture while I'm talking to you, in the way that I would. Like I'm still gesticulating the same way that I would when I'm on video. Because I know that's going to help my voice.

And I know if I'm sitting up nicely and in the way I would want to be seen, that's also going to help my voice. And then of course if I turn my video off, but I'm slouching down like this, it's way harder to access that excited voice, it doesn't match our body.

Okay. I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent here, but please indulge me. You mentioned the 55 percent of our rule that comes from something called the Mehrabian model, which Albert Mehrabian, who is from Iran, he came to Canada, I believe, or the U. S. I can't remember, he was a psychologist who specialized in communication, and he's the one who people take that number from, that 55 percent of communication is body language, 37 is tone of voice, or 35 is tone of voice, 38 something, and then 7 is words.

But I think he himself has spent his entire career trying to say that's not right, don't believe that because it was a really specific experiment that doesn't translate to real life and he said that very clearly.

But a concept that he should be famous for. And I wrote about this in my book because I think it's such a shame. He came up with this term called Congruence. That the key to trusting a speaker is when they speak in congruence. Congruence means your words, your tone of voice, and your body language and facial expressions are all matching. When your voice is telling that you're excited, and your words are saying you're excited, and your facial expression and your body language are all telling the same story, people go, oh, I believe you. And then when you say something like, I'm really excited to be here, people go, I don't believe you. I don't trust you.

And whether or not they think that consciously, it just, it erodes trust. But then it builds it, if we're matching. One of the most important things you can do is just, if you're saying something, look and sound like you mean it.

And if you're talking about something horrible, like your company solves a problem that is killing millions of people each year, don't say that with a big smile on your face, because it looks weird. You have to think about the reality and the emotions of what you're saying, so it's got to match.

So that's why I wanted to bring that up, is this concept of congruence, your voice, your body, your facial expression, and your words all telling the same story, is super important for people trusting you. And as we know in business, trust is everything.

Katty: I love that concept of congruence. I will have to check it out and check out your book as well.

Will: Yeah I've dedicated I think chapter four, the first part of chapter four to that little story and that idea. And it's what I call being in alignment. Step four of my sort of methodology that I take students through when I coach them is After we work on body language storytelling, which we should probably get into as well and then doing some practical tips to start recording yourself and watching it back and, getting recordings of you in your natural environment.

We go a bit deeper into your personal life and your history, and we go where do you come from in your childhood. What happened to you growing up that made you do the work that you do, and is there any part of you that you're maybe ashamed of, or you don't want to show to the world, or you wish were different.

And we start having those conversations, because the reason that we do that kind of work, Is if you can align all of those things just psychologically for yourself if okay This was my childhood. It made me this way and maybe i'm a little ashamed of that But i'm owning it and all of that brought me to where I am today And that's why I do what I do and i'm honest and transparent and real about that.

That's a powerful person You know when you see those people It's you're just like wow, this person is a force to be reckoned with whatever they're doing. I'm investing i'm buying from them I'm working with them. I'm saying yes to their request. Yeah, but I do think we should also talk about the storytelling. Yeah, we should,

Katty: Especially because the candidates that we work with. The creatives, whether they're writers or they're visual artists, they are storytellers. And they can probably tell the story of their piece of art that they've created. But I think when we're talking about an interview session, the story of their career trajectory of their arch, passion, like all of that sometimes doesn't come across as a story. There's not a through line in that. So I'd love to talk about that.

Will: So I have kind of two story frameworks that I like to work with. One is for your presentation and the other is for your personal story. So let's just get into the personal one because that's the one you're asking about. It is what I call the founder origin story, but those are for startup founders, but anybody can use this when they're telling their own story.

It has three components, your childhood origin, your youth realization, and then your adult choice. Do you mind if I ask you, if I workshop this with you, Katty, right now, if I ask you some questions? Okay, cool. It's a great thing to see an example. So yeah, Katty,, where were you born?

Katty: I was born in Iran.
Will: And when did you leave Iran to go to the States?
Katty: In 1979 during the revolution. I was 13.

Will: So 13 is an interesting age because it's on the precipice. It's on that edge between, childhood and youth, but maybe that is where it all starts for you or just, and of course, there's no complete story. We're trying to tell it in a short amount of time.

What do you think about growing up in Iran or leaving when you did in the circumstances that you did. What do you think about that set you on the path that you're on now in terms of what you're interested in or what you became focused on.

Katty: I'm a huge traveler and just like I different cultures or something that just you know, that's what makes me happy. Learning about different cultures, experiencing different cultures, because I see myself having come from two different cultures and became this congruent piece of the two cultures together. So that piece of it has, I think, influenced me, shaped me from the beginning.

Will: That's really interesting. By the way, my wife talks about this a lot because she's Pakistani, but then grew up in both Australia and Canada. So she has this like Eastern and Western two things, but a lot of people talk about this as a third culture. They call it third culture kid.

You're not quite from the culture of your parents, but not quite from the culture that you're growing up in. You exist in this third place. That's what I'm hearing from you. So that could be really interesting to bring to the forefront.

Will: We don't know this stuff about people because people never tell these stories.

Katty: Humanity comes through, right? Yeah. Yeah. Suddenly, you're not a name on a piece of paper. You're an actual individual.

Will: Yeah, with real experiences and difficult things you've been through, and yeah, 100%. That's the purpose of storytelling, really. Is to connect with other people by humanizing ourselves, and then they see our humanity, they feel it in themselves, they give it back, and it's that great rebound ping pong effect.

In general, with storytelling, specificity is really powerful. Whatever story you're telling we want, I always tell people you want to be specific with it because it actually helps the listener hook in more.

Katty: How do you do that in a business environment with somebody looking at somebody's resume or their LinkedIn profile? How do we tie that into a story, but it's more of a professional story? Obviously, we want to show the full individual. I imagine if you have a 30-minute interview that you got to be, to your point, concise. But you got to also be able to tell that story, but you also want to talk about your skills and what you've accomplished and like all of those things. So how do we business storytell?

Will: Yeah. So what I would say is you have to spend some time in this emotional place thinking of the stories, remembering them, extracting them and figuring out which ones. But as you said, they've got to be relevant. So let's just get the last piece and then I'll show you how you can weave it all together.

Katty: I think it was just having the self realization and introspection on who am I and what's my purpose and what's my why and that actually really builds into the Artisan philosophy of, we're here about building relationships based on trust. Because we do is help people in that career trajectory to find the next right thing for themselves. And that is really our purpose. So my personal purpose is infused with the company purpose.

Will: And it is for all the best founders. And that's the thing too, is that people need to realize is if your life story doesn't make sense with the work you're doing, then it's, you're not a very attractive person to work with. But for you, so the piece I'm still missing is just the specificity of I realized that I had to do this kind of work. What was that realization?

Katty: I don't know if I have a defining moment. I got to think about that. I would imagine that it went back to pre-Artisan work when I first started working and realizing that it fed my soul to help other people. And it's just, like I was saying, it's shown up in different jobs that I had before got involved with Artisan.

Will: And these are things that we want to work on. We want to think about and really like practice. We don't want to make it too rehearsed, but we really want to have those thoughts in our mind when we're introducing ourselves. So then, okay we'll take it. And this is a very simple version. We've only spent 10 minutes on this, but already here's what you would do in the interview. I realized helping people be the best versions of themselves actually fed my soul. I knew I had to do something like that. So that's why I started Artisan Creative. And, you can give a quick little elevator pitch.

So that story takes almost no time. And, but it, but we know so much about you. And you're so human for us. Within 20 to 30 seconds. So that's what I always advocate for. People are like, oh, I don't want to waste time talking. about my story doesn't take that long. If you've got it down.

Katty: You got to take the time to workshop it and figure it out beforehand.

Will: Exactly.What are the points? And that's why, childhood origin, youthful realization, and adult choice. If you get your point for each one, you can cover one to two sentences for each point.

Katty: I love how quickly you did that, Will. So where can people find you if they want to go through this process for themselves with you? I know you do quite a bit of coaching virtually for a lot of people, right?

Will: The way people generally find me is through my LinkedIn. I try to post I do post every day there, and I'm always giving advice on public speaking, specifically pitching and presentations, but also being on stage and communicating with people, and also a lot of stuff on entrepreneurship.

And so I'd say for your audience, even if they identify as entrepreneurs or not, learning the philosophy of entrepreneurship is really important because it's about problem solving, and that will never be a bad thing to learn. And then I also have a news, a weekly newsletter. So if people want to follow my newsletter, they can find it.

But anybody can get in touch with me through my through my LinkedIn, through the DMs.

Katty: Fantastic. And of course, I will be sharing all of that information out with the audience too. But I think this is really powerful to recognize the impact that our voice and our tone and all of that can have in any kind of interaction, obviously we're focusing it more on the interview, but in any kind of interaction, even colleague to colleague, even internal meetings, like all of those. That energy and that passion is going to come through our voice.

Will: Absolutely. And it's just that is what I call the final 10%. If you do all this hard work on your presentation or your pitch or you prepare for your meeting, you get your notes done, you make a presentation, you make a report do this PowerPoint, and then you get up there and you just…It's such a waste and it can torpedo the whole thing. And it's just that final 10%.

If you give that final 10 percent of effort and preparation and training and stuff, then you honor all that hard work you did. So don't let it fall flat at the finish line. That's a, that's my takeaway message.

Katty: Yeah. Actually, you know what, let's have this one be a takeaway message. I remember this so well that when we were speaking a couple of years back, you were talking about just like warming up the face muscles.

Will: Yes, you know that people go on stage and or in an interview or on a call with a client and Like none of this has been warmed up. Yes, it's not a awake just to warm up these muscles. I can give you two exercises that you can do to completely change the way that you're going to sound and look.

So the first one is it's an exercise called Big face, Small face. So you want to get your mouth muscles moving your eyebrows going and get your eyes open. Because right now I'm really tired, you can even see my eyes are closed. I have a 17-month old toddler. She gets me up at 5 in the morning every day, and I'm not meant to get up that early.

But, so when I was preparing for this, I had to, do these exercises. Big face, small face looks like this. You go, like that for big face, and then you go for small face. So you open your eyes really, and your mouth really wide for big face, and then you scrunch your face forward for small face.

So even if you're in a waiting room, you can still go to the bathroom, you can find a quiet corner and just do some tongue twisters. And the tongue twisters can be the classic ones that maybe everybody knows. Unique New York, and you exaggerate the mouth muscle. Unique New York, and you start to breathe and use more of voice.

So you do the tongue twisters and the big face small face and try to get your breathing and your voice going and you'll just feel so much more awake and energized. There's more other warm up techniques you can use but just those two will really set you up for success and you'll, you're doing something silly and goofy so it takes away a lot of the nerves. So we'll do a big face, little face, and then a unique New York, red leather, yellow leather, how now brown cow. And you just do, you do those and you're ready to go.

Katty: Thanks for giving us the sendoff here to really, finish this conversation with energy and with passion.

The Artisan Podcast is brought to you by the good people at Artisan Creative, a digital, creative, and marketing recruitment firm with 27 years of experience, placing freelance and full time talent across multiple verticals. For more information, check out ArtisanCreative. com and we look forward to meeting you.

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Ric Krause | LinkedIn

Katty: Ric, thanks so much for joining me on this episode of the artisan podcast. Looking at your resume, the through line that I see through everything is really the impact of the narrative. Where did this passion come from for you? How did you get started in this?

Ric: Actually, in college, I was a music major. I was a composition major, and so even before I got to writing, I was working with form, and my composition teacher said, you could paint a room red and with one white dot, and that's okay, but you better defend that white dot, and that goes to the structure underneath creative, and it was such a great exercise to get as free as you could, then pin it into a structural foundation. And then in music, there's all sorts of rules for harmony, ease, melody, tonality. And so the concept is built into the structure immediately. And that helped me with everything I did. So when I segued into writing, and I had written a play and that got me represented, and then I started pitching and started to sell TV stuff and film stuff, all of those, all the ability to think conceptually and grounded into structure came into play.

And at the same time, we are synaptically hardwired to engage with story. So if you can really use that to your advantage and get people to engage quickly and wonder what happens next, however, that translates into your messaging, people are wired to be taken by the lapel and led forward, and it's what you're utilizing with good storytelling.

Katty: You're going to invite people into that story with good storytelling.

Ric: Yeah, I would say more than invite them, you grab them. Really good storytelling and audiences on the edge of their seat, leaning forward toward you. One, someone is leaning in. And within brand messaging, it's really within, I think, less than three seconds, you've got them. If they're already tuning you out, how do you make up for that difference when they're already leaning back out of your messaging? How are you going to pull them back in?

That's tough. Once you've got them, of course, you have to extend their engagement all the way to the end, which in a lot of CTA, but you have to grab them in, whether you're telling a thriller or a 30 second spot.

Katty: Okay, so what's the How? How does a copywriter who's starting in their career path right now make that shift of saying, okay, just writing copy for the sake of writing copy is different than what Ric is talking about right now?

Ric: Yeah I, think that you have to always consider the one question that is the through line of all narrative, whatever that narrative is, and that question is "what happens next?" What happens next? What happens next? There are many tools that you can use to get there. A reversal reversal expectation; A plot twist. You set someone up to believe one thing and then it changes. Use an interesting hero or antagonist, use a cliffhanger, use backstory. We're doing this because this happened before. You can use all those tools and you're setting people up to track your message with the synaptic pathways that are already there for receiving narrative.

It's taking advantage of something we're already disposed to engage with.

Katty: How do you do that in like a 30-second spot though?

Ric: This is where the agencies are often really good at the 30-second spot. My question is what would go beyond that? You have to engage really quickly with, I think, both the right type of hero, heroine and the right type of world-building. And world-building means that we're always trying to make our audience feel something. It's not a dry exercise. We want them to feel they are the real heroes of the story. They're the stars of the story.

And we have to deal with how we want them to feel while using our product. If you're an Alfa Romeo buyer, you're a sexy soul and if you're a Jeep buyer, you're a rugged individual, right? They're different. Brands have different feels to them. So what we want to do from the get go is make them build the right world. If it's an ad for a Liberty Jeep, it's gonna have a rugged terrain in front of you. You want to build the right world immediately, show the right person in that world, because that is the aspirational leap someone is taking. I'm that guy. I'm that girl. That's really me. Now we've got them. That's the first hook.

You can do it with crazy humor, like if there's a 30-second spot,Chewy's is interesting, because they have the dogs and the cats that talk to you, because they're members of your family, and they always have them saying funny stuff.

You're immediately in, and you also know the experience, because you love your dog, you love your cat, they're like your family. You need to find some immediate hook. The audience will jump into and see themselves as the star of that, 30 second spot, the old advertising saying is selling the dream.

And that's what you're doing. Really.

Katty: So I want to pivot here on this conversation, obviously Artisan Creative is a recruiting company. So my mind immediately goes to when a candidate applies, right? Or when where our clients write a job description. How does that piece….. it almost serves as their advertising piece…, right? How can that job description grab the attention of viable candidates? And then the flip side of it, how can a candidate's resume or their portfolio provide the same "hook", if you will, so that it grabs the attention of interested parties? So let's start with the client side first, the employer brand, and just the narrative around that.

Ric: I think that's great and it sets up a possibly great interview. If each party does it well, then you're opening up what I would call story court where people can really talk and the employer or the potential employer can really get a feel for whether this candidate can work for them and their requisites and vice versa.

The possible candidate is given not only the opportunity to show who they are and what they do, they can see if this job is a fit for them and everybody takes it from that moment. I think employers need to talk about the specifics that are needed in terms of job, and skill set, but also be really clear on what their own brand story is.

It goes to what we were talking about a couple of minutes ago. What is the brand essence? What's the brand DNA? Because what you're doing in all brand messaging is taking that essence and putting it in motion. And that motion is going to be absorbed by us, your audience, and then we're going to feel it.

So you need to be able to talk to your potential candidates in a way that is hands-on and not 30, 000 foot up. If you tell me something general in a, in, in or communicate to your recruiter, something that's general, it's very hard for a candidate to really respond. And, that goes all the way to writing briefs as well.

All of the on the employer side is the onus of specificity, of a hierarchy of ideas, communicated correctly, of, Telling your candidates, what is the feel of the creative you want from them? You have to find out from them. How they can create in your playground.

Katty: Yeah. Obviously skills and software that somebody knows that goes without saying, if the job requires it, the job requires it. But what I'm hearing from you is the storytelling piece of it, or the narrative piece of it, excuse me, on the employer side is really kind almost like the soft skills or the EQ side of the equation. You may have the skills, but you need to also be able to buy into the story that we have about our brand. Who it is that we are what, is it that we stand for.

Ric: Exactly, because if you just were to dump a huge style guide onto somebody. You will absorb some of the things, but it's not going to give your candidate or your employee a real feel for what you want from them. You need to know it internally, I think, personally, that gives your candidate a place to start from to know what the tone and the attitude of your messaging. And that comes from understanding your brand DNA backwards and forwards.

Katty: How is a candidate going to really be able to differentiate who they are, if they have not had a chance yet to have a face-to-face or a Zoom interview, but this is purely just on the merit of their resume and or their portfolio, how can narrative and storytelling play a part in that?

Ric: I would say imagine an interview. Imagine before you do it if you haven't done it. Imagine what you would say if you had to be the hero of your own story. What would you say? Not just the details, but what the details add up to. You need to know your brand. Everything's branding. The process from the brief to the deliverable to the end, Endpoint is all about that communication.

Katty: Love that. Thank you. Thank you for that insight. Because I think, we, try to work quite a bit with candidates to get them ready for their interviews and to just put their best foot forward. And to be able to tell the authentic story of who they are is just so important when it comes to not only the resume but also in the interview and be able to have a thorough line as to their career path, right?

Ric: Yeah. And I also in all of this emotion is important in all of that and all of messaging, whatever you're messaging about, you can't leave the emotion out of the equation. People hook into it or they don't. So know who you are. Don't be afraid to show your passion about things.

Katty: Great words. Thank you. So what are you working on these days?

Ric: Yeah I, took, I think it's now been seven months off. I created in a wonderful recording studio in LA called The Village. I created, hopefully, this makes sense, think of a play with a live concert built into its narrative. And that's what I, did quite a while developing, recording, and mixing. And, now we actually have a first offer from a theater in Detroit. It ties together everything I've done all my life, because it's about, music. The lead is a musician, it has literally a concert woven into the story, and the how of that is a story in itself. The storytelling involves the audience, so it has an immersive quality to it. And so it gives you a story and a concert in one. And that's what I've been doing, for the last seven months of my life.

Katty: Story and a concert in one. I'd love to dig into that. By the way, The Village is just up the street from where I live.T

Ric: Oh, you know The Village? Awesome.

Katty: Yeah. Infamous recording studio. I think Madonna's recorded there, Zeppelin's recorded there.

Ric: It all hangs, you feel like the notes hang in the air, all the great notes that have been played there. It is such a feel. We were in John Meyer's studio. It is, it's just a great place to create.

Katty: I've always wanted to just see the inside. I've only seen it from the outside. Next time you go, let me know.

Ric: I wish if I'd known you sooner, cause people don't get to go in and it is, magical. There is a zillion platinum records everywhere. They are so aware of who they are and what their legacy is that they showcase it really beautifully.

Katty: It’s their brand, so they can stand behind that brand. So let's go back to your play with a live concert within it. Tell me more.

Ric: Okay, it's called The Goldtop, and that's a Les Paul Goldtop guitar. It's about a 1952 Les Paul Goldtop guitar that this down-and-out musician finds in a pawn shop way out in the Valley, and he scratches the money to get it, and his career starts to go on an uptick, and he gets, finally starts to realize all the things he's always wanted to realize. It is a very subtle ghost story. so it works, I think, as a dynamic piece of narrative, but when I wrote it, I wrote a very hyper-condensed script that left room for the music.

If you know an album called Back to Black by Amy Winehouse, it takes off from where she left. She did an amazing thing. She combined Motown and R&B, she was a genius and so we have picked up from there. and built our sound from that. And so that's the music.

Katty: Oh, I Love that. when, it's live in Detroit and, or it goes on tour and it comes here in LA, just definitely keep us, posted. In addition to what you're doing with the play tell me more about your, copywriting, your and storytelling.

Ric: I was a founding partner of a branded content firm called StoryPoint and pre-pandemic, as many stories in advertising are, we were the content engine for Be Grizzly, which is Chiat Day.

And they took our slate and we're going to sell it through a Hollywood agency. And I'm now trying to get them just to fund one of those projects, which is called Same Frame. And that uses a variety of influencers that are, we pick their names out of a hat, we match them, we send them a roll of old-fashioned film, not digital film, real film.

And they shoot it on that film, whatever the thematic is. Then we take that same roll of film and we give it to the other one and they shoot on the same roll of film. So we're inviting double-exposure and it's all about how different points of view can come together and create something startling and beautiful.

I've seen the work, and it's extraordinary. And none of the influencers know who each other are, and at the end of the season we have different shows where they all come and they see the results of their work, and so it has a live component to it. You get to see different influencers that you know operate in the sphere.

There is a, really interesting sub-pocket of people who still photograph and Jeff Bridges and people who are less well-known but equally interesting, had signed up to do this with us. So that’s the project that I'm trying to get going. That's one of the more unusual ones.

Then, in terms of brand, really, when you're a hired hand you're, doing the best you can with what you got. When I was at a company called Legal Shield, they had, it's a legal insurance where people spend 30 bucks a month to have access to a lawyer. The problem with that is no one wants to think about that moment.

No one wants to think about creating a will, no one wants to think about the time your neighbor breaks their leg on your property and is going to sue you, it's not how we think, and if you catastrophize in messaging, I think you're running a real risk. And we persuaded them to do it with humor.

Like the insurance companies do, like GEICO, where there are all these stupid laws on the books in all 50 states. If you're in Louisiana, you can't send an unsolicited pizza. In the state of Connecticut, you can't bounce a pickle off the floor. It's against the law. So we use these things to make these little spots about you can't, did you know you can't do this? Did you know you can't do this?

And that's a lead into talking about how we can help you know things. And so in terms of what I always hope to bring to brand is that type of thing, where you use a way to deal with human emotion that engages as opposed to anything else, because I don't think anything else works.

Katty: Yeah. And so, many of the other ones are fear factor based, like eliciting fear and it is catastrophizing, but you say you, you bring up the funny laws and I had heard about some law somewhere, I forget which state it is, that you can't have ice cream in your pocket. Yeah. Who has ice cream in their pocket? Or, but I guess there's a law somewhere for it.

Ric: There are, there's an insane amount of laws. You can Google them. There, there are an amazing amount of silly laws everywhere.

Katty: So funny. Let's go to inspiration and creativity.

Ric: My most favorite brand that has always inspired me the most is Apple. Apple is my personal Mecca because they perform this magic act of taking a sleek piece of tech and telling us it makes us exponentially more human. That is a brilliant stroke and they do it over and over and over and their ads like the history of sound is the one I love but they're just wonderful. They're so smart and it's an illustration of again personalizing something that could have been so im

And I, a lot of what I've done, and I always try to bring when I'm doing brand messaging, comes from that. Not literally, but figuratively. That I always try to find, as I say, the old advertising motto, sell the dream. How do I do that? What's the emotion involved? What do I want our audience to feel?

And that's where you start. And I think that all copywriters should be tasked with imagining the hero image because they have to start thinking that way. And designers can start thinking about the message and they usually do. And if you collaborate from the get-go, present, get your notes, and collaborate again, you're going to get a much better product, but it's going back to it, I really love images and I work on it because I edit.

Katty: Sounds like filmmaking and watching films, just being around other creatives, whether it's through a medium of film or working together is really what's an inspiration point for you.

So one final question building on what you're just saying. What happens in this remote workspace that we're in that a lot of people are working in a silo? Yes, we have zoom and so on and so forth. But, many people are no longer sitting next to someone else in the office. Any advice or experiences that you can share around that? How to continue collaboration and inspiration?

Ric: Yeah, I think one thing for sure, maintain your network, and it can be outside the company you're in. In fact it should be outside the company you're in, as you go through the various jobs that you have, if you meet a colleague that you vibe with, that you riff with well creatively, stay in touch.

My suggestion is, since we're in the siloed-off world, grow your own network, like a garden.

Katty: So you can be siloed, but just don't be solo and this whole thing.

I'm glad that we got a chance to meet, and be in one another's network and continue, what would you call it? A garden?

Ric: Yeah, you got to grow your networks, your network like a garden.

Katty: Yeah, I love it. Love it. That was, beautiful. So with that, Ric, I just want to thank you for being here and sharing your experience and your wisdom with this group.

And remind us one more time about the name of your play so that when we see it on billboards, we'll know, who it's from.

It's called The Gold Top.

The Artisan Podcast is brought to you by the good people at Artisan Creative, a digital, creative, and marketing recruitment firm with 27 years of experience, placing freelance and full time talent across multiple verticals. For more information, check out Artisan Creative. com and we look forward to meeting you

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Rickie is a seasoned Creative Director & Design Director who successfully leads 360-degree campaigns for high-profile clients and turns big-picture ideas into compelling multi-platform campaigns. Together we talk about experiential design and what it takes to be an artisan in this field.

Find Rickie here: IG @littlecountryfox | Linkedin | rickieashman.com

Katty

Rickie, so excited to have you here on the Artisan Podcast. I know we've known each other through Artisan for a long time, but this is the first time you and I are actually sitting down to have a chat.

Rickie

Yeah, I'm very excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

Katty

How did you get started as a creative? And when did you know that being a creative was a passion for you?

Rickie

I was always a doodler and a daydreamer, according to my teachers, and I got special permission when I was in middle school to doodle because the teacher saw that my grades were good.

In fact, I was at the top of my class in middle school, so they knew that it wasn't impeding my learning abilities. But, their one rule was that I had to doodle in a separate notebook and not in my class notes or in my textbook, which I was fond of doodling in. And flash forward to the beginning of my career I missed out on the opportunity to go to art school.

It was something that I had wanted to do, but I grew up in New Orleans and Hurricane Katrina hit towards the tail end of my high school year.

So, I think my parents were thinking practically when they guided me into going to business school for college. So, when I graduated, I think I ended up moving into a creative career through sheer force of will.

On my first job, I began to teach myself Photoshop through my early interest in art where I was learning how to color-correct photography and illustrations. And then, in my first job, our designer left the company and there was a hole to fill, and I volunteered to take it on and thus began my early career as a designer.

Katty

So that's pretty amazing that your teachers recognized the importance of doodling and didn't curtail that but actually gave you permission, if you will, to be able to do that.

Rickie

Yeah, I think so. And I think, what also has really helped throughout my career is the ability to tell a story. And starting off as a wannabe illustrator, as a kid where I would draw out stories and plot lines in a linear comic book-like format, has always stuck with me.

I had a brief stint getting into creative writing in high school as well. So working on more of the advertising front, where oftentimes a lot of what we do is storytelling in a sense for both the client and the consumer to get the buy in. I think that's also helped ground me and my approach.

So doodling led to a good overall process for creative thinking. And I think it's a great mental exercise particularly, when you're having writer's block, shall we say, sometimes it's good to just, do something with your hands while your mind is working away.

While I doodle less these days, sometimes I find myself scribbling. In my work notes.

Katty

Love that. Yeah, I'm reading this book right now. Actually, not that far into it, but even in the first few chapters, it's called Your Brain on Art it talks a lot about just the connection of art and just, even the doodling piece of it, but the importance of just allowing your brain to travel and be able to do that.

It helps with writer's block. It helps with anything, really any kind of block but just that physical process, just what it does, the chemicals in your brain, pretty amazing.

So you moved from your love of illustration and you built on that and your love of design and you built on that. How did you get into experiential design? And how would you describe experiential design versus traditional creative work?

Rickie

Yeah, I think Again, really through happenstance when I began my career, I was working brand side. So I handled everything from print to digital to occasional photo shoot and video shoot production and concepting for the brand.

Early on in my career, I ended up making a jump from the retail brand side to a new creative agency called Matte Projects. And Matte is known for not just being a boutique creative agency, but also throwing their own events and music festivals in New York city.

So right at the beginning, I think of when brands were starting to realize that events were a great way to reach young people, I started working for an agency that I think began the new model of experiential agency.

What started off as throwing our own events as a way to advertise the agency and build an audience for the events that we would later on throw for our brands. I had my hand in thinking about programming, and talent pools and artist selection for events, as well as, pitching the event concepts to potential sponsors.

The experiential projects offered me, as a creative, an interesting chance to do a little bit of everything where on a content shoot, you might not have much print design, or digital design, or even interior design involved in the project. It can be a little routine after a while. I think experiential is nice in that given the scale of the project, you end up being able to touch multiple aspects of design. Which again keeps things always fun and challenging in the right way.

So on any given experiential project, you're design directing, you're directing the spatial environment, the look and feel prop sourcing, there's this stage element, thinking about the theatrics of the performance or the run of show for the guest experience. We like to throw around the phrase cocktail theater. If it's a dinner event or a party, what is entertaining people while they're in this beautiful house that you've created? It's a very 3d type of design experience, and I think the ability to have people experience your work in a physical format, it has always been exciting for me.

Whereas, on a content piece, you're viewing it online or on social media or maybe through a streaming platform, when you're actually there in the environment, hearing them, and seeing the sights and sounds, tasting the thematic menu, seeing the vignettes that we build I think it's all very exciting.

And it's certainly, at least still now that we've come out of the pandemic, one of the primary ways of targeting young people, thankfully, so it still keeps me busy. I'm glad that we've been able to move back to physical experiences because they are always exciting projects.

I think that, again, the nice thing about experiential is that every project is so different. And, oftentimes, I find the need to bring on a specialist to handle a certain element of the project. In some cases, we have a need for an illustrator, or an animator, or a motion graphics artist to create content or key art for the experience. So I'll look to find talent that can help express my creative vision or the clients’ hopes and dreams for the experience.

I think one of the core challenges is that playing in the world of a brand, you have limits. So sometimes you have to use the client's colors and the client's look and feel. But in other cases, sometimes clients are looking to the agency and the creative team to dictate what the look and feel should be. So I worked on an event a few years ago for a jewelry brand where they gave us four creative parameters, but we had the opportunity to create some new elements using stock and vintage photos.

And I brought in a mixed media designer who created this really incredible collage art wall that really fit in with current trends in design, which in my background as a designer, I'm always trying to make sure that we are staying relevant, timeless, but relevant. So it's always exciting when I can make the design work feel a little bit more edgy.

Sometimes we do templatize our approach on things like printed directional signage and menus, things that are the necessary evils of any branded event. But it's always exciting for me when my designer is able to own elements like that and have fun with them and create something that, has a little bit more of an editorial feel.

Even with digital, we're oftentimes looking to build a microsite, or maybe some events have a digital experience component. So there are so many ways that I'll bring on a prop stylist every now and then, or a photographer, or filmmaker for a project. So it's exciting how collaborative and how expansive experiential projects can be because they allow you to work with so many various types of creative individuals across the world.

Katty

So you said two things I want to dive into a little bit more. First of all, I love that you brought in vintage while you were talking about trends and staying relevant, and for marrying the two together there, I thought that was fantastic. So you talked about always wanting to be relevant and stay relevant and just know what the new design trends are.

Can you share a little bit about what are some of the trends that you're seeing? And a second question to dovetail from there, for somebody just starting out in their path, where should they go to learn about whatever new trends are if they're not going the traditional school route? \

Rickie

Yeah, I think, when I work with younger designers and look at where they are coming out of design school or, in some cases, people do come from non-traditional routes. I've worked with a lot of people in experiential who've come from the world of architecture, or in some cases they worked early on in their career as a producers, but, they are creative problem solvers, so they can merge into a creative director or assistant creative director role.

I think it's key for anyone young to try to train their eye from early on. So really being present and mindful of the world around them and noticing patterns, also training their eye around things that reflect their personality.

I think my vision of what is beautiful or cool is very biased, shall we say, based on my background growing up in New Orleans and in Tokyo and living in New York City and London. I feel it's a particular vision of how things should be. And it's certainly not the only or right way, so I've tried to craft it around, what excites and inspires me.

And certainly, what I was influenced by as a young person, I think, anyone starting off should not be afraid to reflect on what they enjoy and what excites them, because it's always different for all of us. I find it helpful to start by being conscious of what you can do and trying to push yourself 10 or 30 percent to do more.

So for me, because I taught myself design, I had to work with those parameters early on. If I didn't have the technical skill, I would try to learn it, if I could do it in a reasonable timeframe for the sake of the project. And then if not find a specialist to assist me. But then I could continually grow and learn while not staying stagnant or limiting myself necessarily to, to what my skill set was at the time.

I think in terms of current trends, I think font selection is certainly one of the things that live and breathe with the changing of the times. The music industry, I feel is always a great place to start off by seeing what artists are doing in their music videos, on their album art, in their merchandise, and tour posters. I think there, there's such a need for today's musicians to stand out and attune to the current zeitgeist, that they're oftentimes very on-trend. Coming from a little bit of working in the music industry, I've always found most exciting that as a designer, you tend to get to do the most, authentic and interesting things for artists because they're all willing to be, they're also creative, so there's less pushback than when you're working with the brand and they are worried that something that they might not have seen before is or isn't the right path.

I think, again, there's a need to be mindful and present in the world around you, so by building our eye around what inspires us, we can push ourselves to grow without moving far away from who we are trying to conform to specifically a trend in the design ecosystem.

But I think anyone starting off should just strive to enjoy what they do, and pay attention to the things that inspire them, and build their toolkit around their own personality and vision.

Katty

I love that. What I'm hearing is it's not necessarily to just stay in the one lane that you're in, but really allow everything around you, whether it be music or other artists or museums and stuff like just take a little bit from everything to then build what your own style is or whatever your what your calling card is going to be around that.

Rickie

Totally. And I think the key thing too is it's important for a creator to push themselves out of their comfort zone. I think there's the old saying, don't judge a book by its cover. But I find sometimes I will be inspired in a way that, that I didn't normally anticipate by going to an event or watching a movie or reading a book or going to an art show that I wouldn't have initially sought out on my own in some cases.

I go with friends and they're the impetus for discovery and other times, the opportunity presents itself and I make a conscious decision to try it even if I suspect that it may not be for me.

But I found in life that you never know where you need to pull a reference from. So it's helpful to know a little bit of everything and not overly specialize. Always be learning and looking, I think, at the world around you is crucial.

Katty

Yeah, I love that. Have an infinite mind. Be open to whatever the stimulus is.

But you brought up the opportunity that you had to live in a few different places, different countries, and also travel. I find that inspiration for me comes from travel. Anytime I'm within a different culture or taste different foods or things that I didn't even know I would find inspiration or inspiring I come back to over the years and build the richness of the tapestry of my experiences.

Do you find that's really influenced you as a creative? The fact that you've been able to be exposed from New Orleans to Japan and to New York and places in between,

Rickie

Totally. I think for better or for worse, it's certainly been one of the biggest imprints on my taste, my sensibilities, and my personality.

Everyone's heard of New Orleans, but we're still a relatively small city in the American South. So there are some limiting factors growing up there that caused me to want to set out and explore the world around me.

And I was fortunate in high school to have the opportunity to travel to Taiwan and study Chinese opera, which was a more unexpected journey to escape the American South and see something else in the world. But certainly led me to make the decision to pursue part of my university career in Japan, which of course if any designers listening to this don't know, Japanese design is immensely iconic and I think particularly influential in the world of packaging.

So when I lived in Tokyo, even as a young person before I knew that I would work in design I was very cognizant of what I was seeing and experiencing and noticing the variations between the U. S. and foreign markets and, I think what dawned me, and I think anyone who travels probably has these same thoughts, but you know what are the differences that I love to bring back to make something, better back home.

And then, even in the U. S., I think New York, New Orleans, L. A., all three cities are so culturally different. I'm, I think I've been fortunate to have lived in so many different places to broaden my horizons and, again, have a more holistic view of the country what feels right for New York may not work in a market like New Orleans or resonate in middle America.

And I think it's important for us all to be inclusive in our thinking and be aware that the world is a much bigger place, and we have to account, I think, for other ways of thinking beyond our own when we design or particularly work in marketing where our work can impact culture or consumer behavior and how do we use our powers as creative minds to problem solve in ways that can improve the world or improve culture, add to add some sense of maybe for lack of a better word, beauty to the world beyond simply trying to sell or achieve a client KPI.

I think I've been fortunate working more on the boutique front to have more flexibility when it comes to ideating so that we can work on solutions to client needs that, are culturally interesting and maybe beneficial to society versus being purely profit-driven.

Katty

Beautiful. So having a cause or a ripple effect, like the impact that message can have is so important.

Rickie

I think we all need to be mindful because we live in a world that needs our problem-solving to make it better. So I think having that holistic thought process where we understand the impact of what we do is crucial and it's important that we don't lose that.

I think it's important for us to all stop and smell the roses throughout our career to keep ourselves in check. The only people who can make oneself better is themselves.

Katty

Wise words. Yes, definitely, Rickie. Gotta look inwards and then to be able to look out outwards, right?

You talked earlier about, working with brands and sometimes just brand guides and style guides and just the boundaries that sometimes that offers and then trying to push those boundaries but still staying within, what's right for the brand, the colors, the fonts, the messaging, all of that.

What's the fine line in that dance between taking a brand or a client, for that matter, and showing them something that maybe they've not thought of or not seen, or maybe it's in their blind spot and they didn't even realize that they wanted it? And still stay within those boundaries and those parameters that have been created.

And then how do you bounce back from that if the idea falls flat or if they're not going to go for it, or if they give feedback that's contrary to what you wanted it to be? How do you do that? How do you dance that dance? Because I would imagine that's such an important piece of what you do is you want to show a side that maybe somebody hasn't seen. But yet you have to be ready that they may not want to go there.

Rickie

Totally. I think that's the eternal dance of working on the agency side as a creative, as mitigating client feedback. I think there is a big level of empathy and psychology in understanding human thinking when receiving feedback. Sometimes we don't receive all of the information from the client to understand why they might make a certain request or decide to go with the safer alternative.

But I think in my career, I've learned that sometimes you can push and it's really about reading the room and understanding the client. Some clients do want to be pushed and they want to be reminded that they are working with a creative or agency because of their experience level, their taste, their expertise.

Other times, I've had to accept that the solution may not be my favorite choice, but you may just have to settle with the fact that it is what it is and try to make the most of it. And, design within those parameters to make something that you know you as a creative won't hate or feel uninspired by.

But I try to always keep an open mind. If a client chooses path A or path B, I try to always go in suggesting routes that either way I could make work. And I'm fortunate right now. My team and I are working on a project that the client chose. my favorite my favorite path in, and we've been lucky in that they've been really receptive to our direction which is rare.

Sometimes that's a challenge that I face with my internal team. Not everyone is creative. Not everyone can see or imagine the final piece of creative based on the upfront description that we give in the beginning of the project. And I think there's a lot of, in any art form, rationalization, contextualization, and strategy that's needed to go into selling an idea.

So I try to work closely with my strategist team or strategist, depending on the size of the team, to build that breadcrumb trail into the idea so that the client feels confident that it's the right choice and there's the rationale and there's an explanation of the thinking.

And anyone starting off in their creative field, I think younger creatives are oftentimes pitching internally. But if they can create that rationalized approach and that storytelling, there's a greater chance that their idea will be bought, or heard, or considered. And, 14 years in, I still have ideas that get shot down and sometimes it's just the way that it is.

And I think going with the flow is a good mentality to have and turning to roll with the punches, but, it's what makes our life interesting.

Katty

I think you said that really well. Not everybody has that gift, though, to be able to see the end result and to see the full picture. They can see this part of it, but not the entirety. So to have somebody like yourself or your team to be able to paint what that picture looks like is definitely a gift.

You talked about collaborating with quite a few people in this conversation at various stages, whether it was the strategist or the person who pulled in the vintage pieces together for you. When you're hiring or you're looking to collaborate, what's most important to you? Is it their skills? Is it the culture fit? What do you look for when you're looking to add to your team?

Rickie,

I think in my case. as a creative it's really about who aligns most with the vision. That's where I start. And then there's a budget exercise, which is again, the reality check at times. It's always surprising sometimes, I'll find that someone that I want to work with is really affordable, just it's the right time and place and they're open to collaboration, and other times, their value exceeds the scope available for the project.

And I'll have to work with my team to figure out, who is possible.

But as far as vetting, I think on the designer front, I'd say portfolio is important, followed by culture fit knowing who can handle a high-stress environment or who might be client-facing are questions that I've asked recently, as I've looked to bringing on extra hands on the emerging or younger designer front.

I think it's trying to find the diamond in the rough, the expectation for young talent is not that they're perfect, but that they have potential and that they have drive. I think one thing of value I've learned building my career early on in New York is to be hungry and to be precocious.

So it's always good to try to be cross-functional to aid other team members oftentimes, in my case, it's doing copywriting when we don't have a copywriter on staff or assisting with sourcing or something like that.

But I think you know, I think regardless of what your role is in a company, I think if you can be that person that has vision and wants to be helpful and wants to have your voice heard. Expressing that in a thoughtful way is the best ticket to moving up the ranks.

Katty

Yeah, I think that's, those are great pointers for somebody who's just starting out.

I think what you said about looking for somebody who has potential, and that's huge right, to be able to as you're interviewing someone or as you know as a creative interviewing to be able to message out what that potential looks like and how they can do, variety of things that how they can juggle how can they how they can deal with a stressful environment or deal with change, for that matter, like being agile is critical in this day and age.

Rickie, I want to thank you for the time that you've taken to be here and just sharing your journey with us. Before I let you go though, what are three lessons that you've learned in your path in addition to everything you've shared that a young creative listening right now could really just latch onto and say ....this is what I need to go do.

Rickie

I think my first would certainly be around self-education.

As often as you can, whether you're in college or just starting off in your career and don't necessarily have the level of responsibility as more senior employees, use that time to better yourself because nothing will help you more in life. I'd say whether it's learning a new language or an instrument, anything creative you can do that you enjoy and that you're inspired by, take the time when you have it.

I think the second suggestion I would make would be around networking and learning the art of conversation. There are two areas where that can help you in your career. One is of course building your contact sheet, whether it's other creatives who you could potentially work with one day.

Doesn't necessarily have to be upward networking with purely work-related contacts. I think the second aspect of that is building conversation skills so that you can grow to sell your ideas to your team or your client or communicate ideas effectively.

The third suggestion is always keeping an open mind and pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. I think we've all encountered moments in our lives where someone said that they just don't like something because they've never experienced it in a way that's made them enjoyable, but I challenge everyone to reframe their brain to think ….I could like it.I just haven't found the right way in yet.

Maybe a good example of this is country music. A lot of people, cliche say when you ask them what their favorite music is, Oh, I like a little bit of everything except for country and we all know what they mean.

But in the genre of country, there's a vintage country folk more indie singer songwriter, more contemporary. Beyonce now has a country song. I think in culture it's constantly evolving and it's so expansive that to place those limiters on ourselves, prevents us from truly experiencing life.

And again, when we work on projects, you never know when you might need to pull an information thread from something that you've experienced and didn't expect to. In my case, I went to Burning Man one year with a friend on a whim and I fully worried that I would have a terrible time.

And lo and behold, I had a great time and it wasn't the time that I expected. And I was really surprised by how much art and creativity was expressed. And anyone who's gone will say, of course, but had I not gone, I would have remained biased against something that I really didn't know anything about.

And particularly for experiential where I look to design, um, activations around this notion of emotional presence. It's so helpful to have this vast knowledge pool that's abstract and, unfiltered because it allows me to come up with new combinations of ideas that allow for my work to, I think, truly sing.

Katty

Great lessons, regardless of whether you're creative or not, right? Self-education, communication skills, being open-minded. I think those are great life lessons, regardless of whatever path somebody takes.

So thank you for that.

Rickie

Yeah, of course. Thank you so much again for having me. Hopefully, This is helpful to anyone starting off in their career, but I definitely have a lot of, um, empathy and respect for anyone pursuing a creative career because it does require a lot of self-determination to rise to the occasion, shall we say.

Always love meeting and working with young talent and seeing them grow in their career. So hopefully this information will be helpful to someone one day.

I am available on Instagram, my handle is @littlecountryfox and always available through LinkedIn or I have a semblance of a website that I'm terrible at updating, but my email is on there.

So I'm always happy to answer questions to anyone who may want to learn more about the agency life or creative process.

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Executive coach and team development expert: Jamie Douraghy jdouraghy com.

LinkedIn profile:

Hello Everyone. I'm excited to welcome Jamie to this podcast and introduce you to him. You may wonder why we have the same last name… It's because we're married! I was looking to create this series of podcasts on company culture and realized that, right here,is someone who has expertise in helping companies and leadership teams build culture using the strengths of the team

And I thought… Hey, Jamie, would you come and talk to me about building company culture? So here we are! Jamie, glad to have you here. Finally, after 30 years of marriage, our first podcast together!

Jamie: Yes, we've been negotiating this moment for quite some time now.

Katty: Exactly, So what I wanted to dive in with you in this….With everything that has changed in the past few years with COVID and the Great Resignation and this whole movement with hybrid and remote and so on and so forth. We talk about how companies go about in terms of building culture, and learn about their teams. And I know that one of the frameworks that you use is StrengthsFinders.

So I wanted to talk to you a little bit about that and the importance of knowing what strengths people BRING, and what it is that they NEED on a particular team. Would you mind just sharing a little bit about your background and how you've come to this point.

Jamie: Absolutely. My, journey into this world of understanding why, how, and what people need to do to work better together began about 11/ 12 years ago, when I went through the proverbial discovery of your WHY, and then the HOW and WHAT became easier.

What I appreciate about CliftonStrengths is that it focuses on HOW we do what we do, when we know our WHY, which is intrinsic and very personal, our WHAT can become much more dynamic. And then many individuals can get lost in how they're doing what they're doing when they're not clear on that. And CliftonStrengths, as you take the assessment, you look at your 34 complete talents and the top five become your strengths.

Those are the ones to initially focus on. When I'm working with companies is focus on the talents of 6 through 10, because that's where we are learning that the true potential lies and the greatest potential to be unlocked are, is in the talents that are not necessarily our strengths.

Katty: So you mean the first five of those 10 is something that naturally occurs. It's the six through 10 that the potential and the opportunities lie within.

Jamie: Exactly. For example, Context is my number two (strength). I don't have to think about watching a documentary or what I'm going to learn from a specific book. I just pick it up, or I just do it.

My number six or seven is Maximizer, where I need to take good things and I want to make them great. I have to put a little bit more intentionality and a little bit more thought into it. It's not an automatic process.

Katty: So really a growth opportunity even for every individual.

Jamie: Definitely. Our greatest growth, for me, lies within the six through ten.

Katty: How would you say…from a team dynamics standpoint, I know you've shared in the past that GallupStrengths or CliftonStrengths is not a hiring tool, but more of a development tool. Can you share a little bit more about that and how hiring managers as a whole can utilize tools like CliftonStrengths to be able to develop their core team, and their people?

Jamie: These tools show how good a person may be on paper, or as a result of algorithms and science that have been put out there. Where the greatest growth happens is when they are doing the work. And when I know how I can do some things better than others, then I can team up with the right people that are, if not, better at certain areas and partner up with them. And for me, that's where team dynamics become more important than growing just one individual.

It's really how you grow the entire team, and what are the individual contributions that each player can make, to make that team greater. So, I didn't answer the question. Probably to be more specific, all the assessments are good. They all offer insights. It's similar to a painter. A paintbrush is a paintbrush, but it's a different painting in the hand of Picasso than it is in Van Gogh's. It's really how the manager knows how to use those tools to get the best, to extract the best out of people.

Katty: I understand that. Thank you for that analogy. That makes sense to me. I know that it was a very eye-opening exercise for me to just take my assessments and recognize what my strengths were and maybe what is not so strong for me, and choose whether I want to work on that or not.

How would you suggest to different teams who work together to use this tool for constant communication? And how do they operationalize it? Basically where I want to go with it is it's one thing to take the assessment, but it can easily sit in a drawer and collect dust. It's another thing for it to become part of the everyday conversation of a team. What would you suggest there?

Jamie: The best way is to use it as an opener for many meetings. There are thousands of companies that use Gallup's tool, CliftonStrengths, to create a strengths-based culture. I know when I was in a leadership role several years ago, as we were going through COVID, our monthly meetings were “What two strengths are you counting on to get you through COVID?” And it allowed for people to be authentic. It allowed people to look at themselves and say, okay, these are the things that I can count on myself because we don't exactly know what's going on in the world outside.

And then when that is shared collectively, people start to connect. They say, oh, okay, I can go to this person for that, I can go to that person for this. And importantly, my team can come to me for what they need.

One of the CliftonStrengths reports is the Bring/Need report…What's the value that I bring to the team, and what's the energy that I need to gain from the team? And when you have everybody doing this in sync, it can become a very powerful way of pushing teams up to that next level.

Katty: Who can I go to beacuse I don't have that strength, but somebody else does. Or who can I rely on to see this (through) and vice versa?

For clarity's sake, speaking of context... I know we're referring to CliftonStrengths, Gallup, and Strengthsfinders. Would you mind sharing with everyone that we are talking about the same tool, just the name has evolved?

Jamie: Yes. It was StrengthsFinders and then it became CliftonStrengths. And within CliftonStrengths there are 34 talent themes, of which the top five become your strengths.

Katty: And then six through 10 are the opportunities for further development and growth.

Jamie: Exactly, They do support the top five.

Katty: And I think it's really interesting for the audience to that we're talking about it in the context of work, but how impactful it is in the context of everyday relationships and conversations. Jamie's number two strength is Context, it's my number 32…..

So you could just imagine the conversations that we have around that, or I know who to go to any time I want details on things because that is not me! Or I want the history of things, I know who to go to for that. That makes a very interesting conversation!

Jamie: I know to come to you for ideas because you have ideation quite high. And if I'm stuck on a certain area and can't break through, I will come to you and ask, Hey, this is the challenge I'm facing. What thoughts do you have? You'll give me a list of ideas very quickly. And then I will take those and then put them into my way, my methodology of executing.

Katty: So at Artisan Creative, we, several years ago chose to adopt, StrengthsFinders as one of our frameworks and one of the tools that we're using here.

What we've done to operationalize it is that on our Slack channel, every single member has their strengths listed. In every single team meeting, we talk about what we bring to the table, and what we need based on our strengths. When we're talking about reviews and just having one-on-ones, really looking at where those strengths need support, how those strengths are showing up. It's become part of our company culture and part of our conversation, which has strengthened, no pun intended, but it has strengthened how we're communicating and how we're talking to one another.

Jamie: That's good. What's an example of how you've done that beyond Slack? What's an example of maybe in a meeting or when you're facing a challenge where you said, Let's look at our collective strengths.

Katty: Yeah, so the interesting piece is that we have some team members who are very high in Communication. And we have some team members that communicate but maybe not necessarily outgoing, they're not the social butterflies if you will, and making sure that both sides of the equation, the ones that have, you know, WOO (Winning Others Over) as part of their strengths, and recognizing that maybe not every single person on the team has that. And still creating space for everybody to have time to communicate and to verbalize what's going on and not dominating the conversation…so just that recognition and that self-awareness has been huge. Otherwise, our conversations could turn very one-sided. So that's been an important distinction, just to know that there are some amazing people with amazing things to say. They may just not be the first ones who jump in with something and how to create the space for them to say something. That has been important to recognize.

So when you're talking and working with leaders on these leadership teams, and utilizing, whether it be StrengthsFinders or any other assessment that they're choosing to use on their teams and in their organizations, how do you go about advising them as to how to use that tool and how to utilize it to bring clarity, communication and conversations to the forefront?

Jamie: I believe for leaders to get to know their teams better, the teams have to get to know the leader better and open up and show your strengths, show your struggles. Let everybody have a peek behind the curtain, see that, and then open it up. Usually, the answers most time the answers are already within the room.

And if the leader is able to openly communicate, this is where we're going, here's why we're doing this, now let's get to the how part. And this is where we're going to need each of you to step up. Let's talk about the value that you bring; let's talk about your strengths; let's talk about your struggles.

And if we are lacking certain resources or certain diversity of thought, then let's go out there and get those players or look within and develop people that are within and bring them up to that next level. So, it's really important for the strengths to be throughout the entire company and not remain the exclusive domain of the leadership team.

Katty: So do you mean that as a leader, if they're looking at all the different strengths of their team members and are seeing particular gaps in particular strengths, they can recognize that in their 6 to 10 strengths they have an opportunity to develop that strength up or go out and add to their team with people who may have different skill sets.

Jamie: Exactly. Look within first. If it's there, create opportunities for those strengths to evolve, for those talents to evolve into strengths. If it simply doesn't exist on the team, then let's look at who can complement this team. Because if we have a team that is too similar in thinking, then the blind spots become pronounced.

We're all susceptible to the same blind spot if we don't have that broader base of diverse thinking.

Katty: Yeah, I'd imagine that if a company culture is really about developing their existing talents and helping their existing employees rise to the next level, whether it be within the company or just, you know, personally grow, having a tool to be able to calibrate that and help promote that is going to be really important.

If people are interested in just finding it out for themselves, maybe it's not something that their company offers, can they just go to the CliftonStrengths site and take the assessment for themselves?

Jamie: Absolutely. The assessment requires about 40 minutes of uninterrupted time, and there are two products that they offer. One is the Top 5 at a certain price, and then there's the full 34 at a higher price. And the reports are very robust and they give a lot of good personal insight. And what better investment of one's time than to start to study oneself?

Katty: I wish I had had this tool many, many years ago. I think there are some things that I was harsh on myself for but realized later on that actually, wasn't a strength. I just didn't recognize it at the time. I know that this particular tool is also available for younger adults.

Jamie: They do have one that's designed specifically for children from the age of seven/ eight to about 13. And it's called Strengths Explorer. That's really to allow families to have a similar conversation with younger children. And I believe it gives you the top three in a language that's easier to understand and easier for parents and children to communicate.

Katty: I know what, that's something that you've focused on is to bring clarity, and open communication to teams and to groups.

Jamie: And one thing I've learned from the coaching that I've done and in particular from Judith Glaser and Conversational Intelligence is that the quality of our relationships is based on the quality of our conversations, and the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our culture…and everything happens through conversation.

And if CliftonStrengths can be a tool that stimulates a level three conversation, then what better tool to be using on an ongoing basis in terms of both personal and team development?

Katty: What's a level three conversation?

Jamie: Well, actually, before I start that, let's go to level one. Level one is, is really transactional. It's when you tell and ask and just go back and forth. And level two is positional when you're advocating “I'm right, you may not be right. I'm right, you may not be right”.

Level three is transformational. It's where the conversation builds on each person's contribution to that conversation. And from there, you're in essence, co-creating, and it's releasing different kinds of chemicals in the brain where you create a safe space, to build something. That's where the greatest creativity happens because you're building something greater than when you started the conversation.

Katty: Yeah, I can see how that's so powerful, especially, obviously, we work with creatives and we work with people who are in the space of co-creating all the time and or a creative working with their team members and maybe on the Account side or the project side.

Creatives look at things differently. Art is very subjective. So, to have that ability and to understand that I'm trying to have a transformational conversation and not necessarily positional. Maybe sometimes it is transactional, but elevating to that level and know who our teammates are and what their strengths are, really helps to have those types of deeper transformational conversations.

Jamie: Absolutely. And we do need transactional and positional conversations. It's when we get stuck in that rut and don't elevate ourselves to the next one, is that's the opportunity that's being missed and being able to recognize a pattern and knowing, oh, so and so is this way because they have such high Belief as one of their Strengths. So how do I get them to see that there's another perspective that may be as equally as valid as the ones that they are so tightly holding on to?

Katty: What would you leave our audience with, if there was one thing after this call that they chose to implement on their team or in their company to help elevate culture and understanding and communication? What would you suggest that they do?

Jamie: I would put it in a simple phrase: "know your strengths, know yourself." And then when you know yourself, be curious about the strengths of your team and your teammates and bring that culture so they are equally curious about you. And so we're constantly uncovering these amazing talents that we all possess. Yet, we don't always have the opportunity to express them. And once we're able to express them and see them in action, it does tend to elevate the entire team.

Katty: Amazing. Well, thank you for, after 30 years, taking the time to sit here with me and have this conversation about StrengthsFinders and culture building. Where can people find you?

Jamie: Easiest way is jdouraghy com. I'm also on LinkedIn as well.

Katty: Thanks so much, Jamie.

Jamie: Thanks. And, I guess we got to go make dinner now, right?

Katty:Yes, it is that time.

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https://www.joyful.co/ | Linkedin

Today we're welcoming Allen Hardin, co-founder and partner at Joyful agency out of Portland and one who works with clients nationally and internationally to bring joy and make work more joyful. Joyful is a culture agency that designs and activates company culture for Fortune 500 companies and high-growth startups.

Welcome to this next episode of the artisan podcast. My name is Katty Douraghy. I'm the president of Artisan Creative and your host for the artisan podcast.

Today we're welcoming Allen Hardin, the co-founder and partner at Joyful agency out of Portland and one who works with clients nationally and internationally to bring joy and make work more joyful. Joyful is a culture agency. They design and activate company culture for Fortune 500 companies and high-growth startups.

In this profound shift that we've had lately in the world of work, the rise of stress and burnout across leaders and employees and finding this need for best-in-class companies to re-recruit their talent and welcome them to a better future. Joyful saw this opportunity to focus their unique skill sets on this vital lever of growth, which is culture.

And that is what has brought us here to this conversation to talk about company culture employee retention, and bringing more joy to work. So with that, please welcome Allen and so happy to have you.

Let's welcome Allen Hardin to the podcast. Allen and I are both part of an organization called EO, The Entrepreneurs Organization, and I was fortunate enough to visit his offices a few weeks back I just loved what I saw there. I saw all the joy that was there with everything that they have created for clients and that’s what has brought us to this conversation.

Katty I was really curious about the genesis of Joyful and your background, Alan, and have an opportunity for us to just really connect and chat.

Allen: Thank you so much for having me. Katty. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Katty: I think with everything that's happened through COVID, with everybody being remote and now people being hybrid and some people not even knowing yet what their company culture and or their org is going to be like. Whether they're gonna bring everybody back or not or stay hybrid thing, it's just a really important topic to talk about, you know? Build and maintain culture through this. Craziness. This new work place that we're in.

Allen: So there's a number of milestone moments that have happened over the last few years that everybody reset or refocused on it, but it's continuing to change as well. So that's the important thing to recognize is that you're never quite done working on your company culture. It's something that always needs a little bit of attention.

Katty: Absolutely. Tell me a little bit about you and kind of how you started in the space and what kind of was the impetus to start Joyful?

Allen: Yeah, absolutely. My background really stems from live event production. So in the early years of our company, that's what we really focused on. We originally started in 2015. And we're producing big events for ourselves, public events, ticketed events in the Portland area, but also producing big events for clients.

And one of our colleagues has said in the past that any live event any live experience is inherently a cultural experience. And I think that that is what really helped us focus and refocus on the path that we're on now. Focusing on company culture.

Live events in that world require a number of different mindsets if you will. And I like to say that you have to be one part visionary, right, really seeing the big picture and being optimistic of what could be and creating this emotive thing that really makes people feel something at an event or an experience that they have. But you also have to be very pragmatic, but you have to be able to execute those things on the ground and deliver on that promise because people will know, in real-time, whether you're telling a story or whether you're actually able to deliver on that on that vision that you cast.

And so that's how I frame the work of live events and it’s that same perspective that we apply to company culture. So you would need to have that optimism and vision for what your company can be like, what it's actually like to work there or experience.

But we need to be able to make it happen to, actually be able to activate on those needs. So my background really comes from live event production. And I think I blend that a little bit with, you know, how I want to spend my time and, you know, casting a little bit on, you know, just the purpose of Joyful if you will.

Our belief really is that life is short, and one of the biggest places people spend time in their life is work. So… it shouldn't suck.

It's if it's so much of your life, how can we help people enjoy what they do a little bit more, and be more engaged? It's got a very, very clear tie to productivity and efficiency and just a lot of long-term value metrics for organizations. So that's my story. I grew up we grew up on the West Coast and a lot of time outdoors spent a lot of time in various activities, but my professional career has been around live event production and a few other things.

Katty: Thank you for that. And you're right, the two prongs that you talked about are those having a vision as well as being able to execute. I can see that all the way is going to manifest itself in a company's employer brand… like how are you like what's the vision you're putting out there to attract new talent to your doorstep, and how do you execute on that and how do you make sure that there's a through line and everything that you're doing to message that out accurately.

So when you guys start collaborating with clients and you know, just really this emphasis on, you're here to make work more joyful. Do you sit through a discovery session? And is that do you bring joy primarily through live events? Or how do you get involved in expanding company culture?

Allen: All over the map in terms of what those tactics are, if you will. So on one end of the spectrum is the big picture thinking, that strategy session, the discovery strategy, you're really uncovering the current state and figuring out what the future state is and basically, creating a map of how to get there, right?

So we focus a lot on the strategy of how to accomplish what our goals are, and what that client's goals are. But we also focus on those tactics or activations as we call them. So, we found that, you know, in the marketplace, there's a lot of groups on either end of that spectrum, right? There's some that do culture strategy or organizational psychologists or, you know, folks that have come up through HR, learning and development, things like that, and they'll work with you to help make that map, but then they hand the map to the company and say okay, this is what you have to do.

And a lot of those, those, our clients find themselves in a spot where like, it's great, I know where I'm going. I don't have the capacity or the experience or the tools or whatever it is to actually bring this to life now. The other end of that spectrum is, you know, a more standard creative agency, right, where if you give them a very specific brief from saying, hey, I'm looking for this video product or this event or this experience or whatever it is, they can execute on that. But again, a lot of our clients didn't have that vision or that articulation to give that kind of correct brief to that group. So, we tie those two things together.

I invite clients to join us anywhere in that spectrum, right? So sometimes people just need a tactic and they need some help producing something. And we have the capability to do that in-house.

But our most successful work, I would say is the work that starts on that strategy side of things. So, I typically say the best tactics are built from great strategy. The tactics are what people see and they get attention and people get excited about that. Oh, we should do that at our organization. Those were built based on a strategy for a specific client for a specific reason.

So it's, it's good to reset and refocus on why are we doing something What's the objective with this and what's the best way to go about it? And, then build the tactics from there. So that kind of extends from our origin story a little bit too, where events were more of the tactic, right, but the why and the how was really what we were skilled at.

And so, we really transitioned during that COVID era, from just focusing on events to zooming out again and saying, what's the real purpose of this? What are we trying to achieve for these events for our clients, and it was to bring that authentic cultural experience for them. So anytime you can zoom out and start with strategy, that's when we see the highest success, if you will, for work that we do.

Katty: The COVID era was a shift in what you were doing a Joyful or did it just amplify what you were already doing, and you just put more emphasis on it.

Allen: A little bit of both. So, we were heavily focused on live events, and that that period, you know, live events basically went away. Our company story was one that we had a large amount of work planned for 2020. And we were building the plans and the tactics to execute on that level of work, and it all went away.

It so it just in the beginning of March, I think it was you know, basically all of that work went zero. Then we had to refocus, now the clients that we were working with the same situation that we were in, they used to rely on these live events to motivate employees, to celebrate employees, to enjoy time together. They used to rely on in-person in the office or, or, you know, kind of camaraderie building and trust building and all of those other collaboration aspects as well. So you were relying on these things that have existed for so long and all of a sudden that goes away.

You have to rethink how you're going to do that, so, that was a big refocus for us where we were really doing a lot of that same tactic of live event experience. But the skills were the same to refocus on instead of saying how can we impact this small group, this one day this one time, to how do we impact instead, the whole company, all year, from anywhere, right?

So your audience grows quite a bit. And so, in that year through that COVID kind of switch, if you will, we had a big swing from having a lot of work planned, to go into 0, to back to our biggest year again, because a lot of businesses were in the same spot that they needed to focus on company culture now more than ever to make sure that they were resilient enough to withstand those factors.

Katty: Absolutely, gosh, my mind goes to seems like a long time ago now…but my mind goes to certainly March 2020 when the whole world just got upended. That must have been a pretty as frightening business owner, a really frightening time to just be there.

Allen: Yeah. I mean, you just kind of go along the same lines as some of our other perspectives, but as a culture company, that helps our clients with their company culture., it can’t suck to work here. Right? So it's got to be a good place to work.

So during that time, we're not only focused on our people, that's kind of number one is taking care of our folks, making sure our team is healthy and has what they need to survive and thrive and do everything on that human level.

But then also from the perspective of business, we had to change our product offerings, change our messaging, change the way we talked about what we do to meet the new needs of that time. So, both have to look internally at our team, but also externally at what our product is and how we support our clients at that time. It was a crazy time for sure. Yeah, for sure.

Katty: A little bit of a segue to kind of what we're talking about, but as you're talking about just what you needed to do, the word that pops into my mind is ….resilience. And I know that we work with candidates all the time who may have lost their jobs, or their interview didn’t happen, or their work is shifting, whether it be because of AI or because of whatever it may be. Where did you go to for strength for yourself? Where did resilience come from for you?

Allen: Oh, all over the place. I mean, I talk about resilience a lot, especially with company culture, right? I make the case that that's really what we do, is if you have that strong company culture, your team is inherently more resilient and that helps in good times and bad. So, it's a mitigator of two things, right? So if you're growing very fast, the team is going to need to be resilient to take on that changing world. Right?

Or if you're in a really tough time, whether that's a macroeconomic thing or just a specific thing, you need to be really resilient to be able to handle that too. So I think company culture is what helps people with high-growth situations or really tough situations.

For me personally, I mean, in that timeframe, I'll start giving the Entrepreneurs Organization a plug, where, you know, being a part of that organization was incredibly helpful because I could connect with fellow entrepreneurs that were going through some more things all over different industries or different sized businesses or different locations, all you know, a lot of the details are a little bit different, but the same macro situation where we're trying to figure it out and survive, you know.

So just being in a room full of people that you know, you're all in it together, and we're all rooting for each other and trying to support each other was a huge, huge part of my resilience at that moment.

I owe a lot to the EO group, especially during that time. I had just joined I think maybe the year before, so what a fortunate circumstance to have recently joined that group and then, you know, be thrust right into such a situation where it became so beneficial.

Katty Is that just the importance of community I think it's so impactful right? And absolutely, we feel we’re the only ones going through something, and yeah, the to support that. So impactful.

Allen: Absolutely. Yeah, that perspective is going to give you do feel that way sometimes, but when you get back in that room of other folks you know, like-minded folks, you realize, you know, a lot of other people are dealing with a lot of stuff too. And you know, we're not we're not in it on our own.

Katty: So going back to the other point you were talking about and before I had this little segue question for you, this shift of shifting from singular events, that was the big crescendo of kind of building culture, to this mindset shift I would imagine for not only for Joyful but for the clients who are used to these big, singular events of company culture is really this constant thing. It's not a big wave that crashes through but it's a stream that continually is running. How were you able to shift that mindset? For a hiring manager listening in, for example, or somebody who's trying to build their company culture, where would be the starting point for them?

Allen: Yeah, I think the starting point is today, right? The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, and the second best time is today.

That would be my advice to hiring managers in a similar situation where it's, it's every day we refer to culture as a ground game. It's every interaction. It's every exchange that employees have on a day-to-day basis. It's not these big shiny moments that happen quarterly, or whatever cadence you choose. But it's really what they experience every day when they go to work and are they able to feel productive and motivated and safe and all of those things that go around with a good experience.

You know, what we typically do is focus a lot on a roadmap or a framework and we map out your year. I like to use the analogy of a beach ball.So you think of a beach ball at a fun concert, right, so somebody has a beach ball and puts it up into the air to concert, think of that as your company culture, right? That can stay up in the air as long as everybody in that crowd is contributing to bouncing it up a little bit higher, right, and it keeps going, but as soon as somebody takes their eye off the ball or they're not paying attention or get out too far out in front of them, or too far to the side or something like that, that's when it can really fall.

Culture just like the gravity will kind of find its way back down unless people are actively contributing to it on a daily basis. So you're never done working on that. Right?

So, it's a combination of the everyday moments, your peers, your managers and your leaders, to those big events from time to time, better, maybe the bigger hit that pushed the ball up a little bit higher in the air. It's a combination of all those things.

So I don't think you can focus just on one or just on the other. But being able to visualize and kind of a roadmap if you will, and look at 12 months, okay, what are these quarterly things that are inspiring moments for our team? Okay, what are these things have happened monthly, where they're kind of dry right now, but maybe we have an opportunity to make them a little more engaging or give our employees a little bit more something that they're looking for during those times. Okay, well, well then what about our one-on-ones? And then what about when he walked through the door? Right? What about how we send emails or how we have meetings all the way to the most minute things?

So being able to have that perspective of kind of 30,000 feet, the big you know, Vision stuff, but all the way down to on the ground is each day like you know, what, what is the technical hurdle that I run into every day that is just really frustrating to me, that just should be way easier? You know, those ways of working. It's all of that, right? So you can't think it's just the one big thing and the big shiny thing. You can’t think it's just the small tactical stuff, but it's, I would say it's a sum of all of those things that really contribute to their culture.

Katty How does that tie back to a company's core values?

Allen: I think it all starts there. I think we really try to frame our work on the purpose of the organization. So, we start with the purpose of the organization and what are your core values, beliefs, and behaviors. If you start your work there and work on your employee experience, we feel that's the strongest way to do it. You know a lot of the work we do has to do with communicating and letting values, and purpose, live every day. Right?

Because for so many organizations, you develop something maybe you share. Maybe you put it on a poster, but what are the ways that those come to life every day?

You know, employee recognition or in the way that you hold your meetings or in the way that you organize your events or whatever that is, that's where those should shine.

More, as a throughline as you said earlier, you know, they should be there every day.

So we start there. You know, we've looked like a creative agency or organization looks like a creative agency. We just choose to focus our efforts on company culture, and employee experience. So we do a lot of communications, we do a lot of marketing about an organization's purpose and values for internal purposes. Not to sell something to a customer, but to share that message internally with the employees so that everybody is kind of re-recruited to that same purpose on a regular basis. We produce a lot of videos, we do a lot of newsletters, communications, all that type of stuff to really reframe the conversation about that. To put it simply Katty, it's constant, and essential to focus on that.

Katty: And this is all internal communication that you're producing. You're producing that for the organization and its employees.

Allen: Exactly. So, it's, instead of, you know, us making ads for promotions, for a company to sell to a customer. We're using those same skills to share messages from a company to its employees.

Katty: And I and I would imagine, I think I mentioned to you that I’ve spoken about this before, believe that company culture comes through even before that candidate is hired, how that candidate is interacted with all the way from the date, the time they apply to that job or what how that job description is written, like all of those have to be connected, right, that that message has to come through on those too

Allen: Absolutely. I mean it starts very early on and then it continues even with your most seasoned employees, right, because the way I like that you mentioned that, the way the job description is written, where they find that post, you know, what their first interview is like, and are they made to feel as part of the team or as an outsider, and, you know, you can't, in my opinion, you can't run onboarding or an interview or an application process one way and then give them a different experience on day one. Right?

And that's kind of a shift that, you know, are you being authentic in that interview to what it's actually like to work there. And, it goes two ways, right? So, we often can make this interview look good and shiny and say, hey, it is amazing to work here and it’s awesome. And then they get to work the first day and nobody says hi to them or no, you know, it's a different experience that way. So it goes both sides. You know, you might have a really hard interview and then it's amazing to work there. Have a great interview and it's not amazing to work there.

Having alignment and intentionality through that whole timing is critical. And I mentioned seasoned employees too, we talk about re-recruiting your employees every day, right, to reset really what the company stands for and is about and what the values and behaviors are for that organization. You can't just stop after their onboarding, right, and pretend that they've been there 10 years. You need to be intentional with it on an ongoing basis regardless of whether that employee has been there for one day or 10 years or anywhere in between.

Katty: I like that mindset of re-recruiting your employees every day. It's really important not to make assumptions that we just need to look at external or new employees and forget about people who are already here. I think we saw that during COVID with a great resignation.

Allen: Absolutely lots of people's priorities shifted. Yeah. And they realized hey, you know, how I'm spending every day is not how I want to be spending every day. And it's their decision to make as to what they want their day-to-day to look like. And so it's important not to forget that you have great people already, and they may need some attention just as much as you focus on your onboarding program. So I think that's another kind of differentiator of how we focus on the work. We're not focused just on one part of that lifecycle, not just the onboarding experience or just your holiday party or something like that, right but it's everything in between for the whole organization.

Katty: How would you emphasize culture building and just employee experience and employee engagement through this hybrid space that we're in now? There are some people in the office others never come in, and kind of how you build culture in these two diverse groups of people that are maybe geographically separated from each other.

Allen: Yeah, the simplest way I would say it is intentionality, the more complex way is that it's different for every organization, right? I'll speak about our organization, right? So we're a midsize company here in Portland, and we have a physical office. But our policy is to work from wherever you're most productive. So, we don't have a requirement, of how many days to be in, or which days to be in or anything like that, but we’ve tried to build our location such that people will feel like they can come here and be productive and be a little bit social.

So a lot of the folks on our team can do more work in their day if they stay at home. They can be more productive with their tasks and their workload when they're not bumping into colleagues and having side conversations and things like that. They can just stay focused and get their work done. However, I'm a strong believer that trust, collaboration, respect, and a lot of those things are really built the more in-person time you spend with each other. So, we tried to build our situation such that people want to come in, and people enjoy coming in and spending time with each other. But it's not coming in and realizing hey, I would have gotten more work done at home. The space is such that you can be productive and you can connect with your colleagues simultaneously, and we let people self-select.

Now will that work for every organization, will that work for us forever, no. It’s gonna be different all over the board, but I think being intentional with why you're asking people to do something, is really important. And a lot of folks will make a decision because that's the way they used to do it, right? Or we used to do it this way. And I think that's another perspective that deserves to be looked at again, too, right? Because things are constantly evolving and, you know, the way people work will ebb and flow forever, so we need to adapt.

So there's lots of details in there from technology to collaboration. That's what we're doing for our for our organization. For now, it's working, but I don't pretend that that's the answer forever.

Katty: We've been remote for 12 years now, long before I think it was the thing to do. And the minute the systems we were using went cloud base we were like, Oh, we don't need to have this physical office here anymore. And I have to say, in the beginning, there was we had to work a lot harder for engagement, right? We had to work harder to make sure we were communicating more, to do everything more.

And I still find that that has to be done. Like some of those assumptions or conversations that are water cooler conversations or the spontaneity of just going to lunch together. That just doesn't really happen anymore. Everything has to be, as you were saying, intentional, planned, that needs to be you know, a path towards It's continuing with that. So that's been an interesting thing. And when COVID happened, everybody's asking, so how do you… how did you do it? It was something I hadn't even thought about.

Right. Yeah. We didn't necessarily have an SOP around that. We had to step into this and share with others how we had done it.

If there are companies whose culture you really admire, what are some of the common denominators? First of all, who are they? And what are some common denominators that you see that are just telltale signs that they got it right.

Allen: That's a great question. I think there are a lot of points in time, and answers I would give, and I think that, again, culture is dynamic, right? And it's constantly evolving within an organization. And so there are peaks and valleys for the company. Personally, I would say, that organizations that value the whole employee, where people can really bring their best selves to work, and be productive and operate at a high level, really execute great work product, and have time, make time for their personal pursuits.

Often it feels like organizations are one or the other, where you're either in this high-performing situation that that's all you do, right, you're really in a grind on that you're delivering great work, but it's all-consuming, or it's a little more casual, and you have time for everything, but you know, it's not operating that same kind of performance level.

So the organizations or the kind of situations that come to mind are ones that balance both. So my personal view on it, you know, is where people can bring their, their whole selves. But I think the broader answer I would say is that it's different for every person.

We don't really believe that there is good culture and bad culture, we more believe that every culture is a little bit different. Let's be authentic and genuine with what ours is, and then let's promote that and communicate that and let people self-select in or out, to that. So we more subscribe to that kind of wrong fit- right fit, if you will. A colleague has authored a book by that title where let's just be transparent about what our culture is, and there are people that want to fit that, and let's recruit them.

Rather than, let's pretend that our culture is something different than it is people in the door. And then they later realize that it's not the right fit.

The book is called Wrong Fit, Right Fit. By Dr. Andre Martin, that's a plug of a colleague, if you will, but it's a shared belief with our organization, for sure.

Katty: It reminds me of many years ago, many, many years ago, actually through EO I got a chance to hear at the time the President of Trader Joe's. One of the things he said that always stuck with me was he would walk up and down or grocery aisle and see if there were people were smiling, and if they were engaging with customers, and he just really, really wanted people, people.

And if somebody was just really focused on putting the items on the shelf the right way, and just not engaging with what was happening, what was happening there in the store, he would go up to them and say, you know what, you're doing such a beautiful job here with the aisle. But that's not what we need. There's probably another company out there looking for you to be that perfect person who's stocking the shelves perfectly. That’s not who we are, we'd rather have that be messy, but you are engaging with whoever's walking in. That has stayed with me in terms of culture.

Allen: I mean, that makes me think of values and behaviors. Right. So when you I don't know their values offhand, but it feels like they have, you know, a defined behavior that associates with a certain value, right, where it's being personable and engaging over being so focused on the little details of stocking the shelves because of that customer isn’t excited to be there. It doesn't matter if the shelves are organized well, alright. I think that's a great example. I'm not familiar with all their details, but I think that's a great example.

Katty: So where can people find you? If they're looking to engage with you're just learning about Joyful a little bit more.

Allen: Yeah, I would push folks to either our website or LinkedIn, our website is Joyful.co

Or you can find us on LinkedIn company name is Joyful. That's the best way to find us.

So we'll be around that a number of HR / culture focused conferences here too. So you'll see us out and about, if you're part of that community, we'll see you there. But yeah, please find us online and, and reach out we'd love to connect with you.

Katty: I just want to clarify that even though you're Portland-based, the clients that you service are nationally and internationally located.

Allen: Our office is in Portland, our team works all over. And, yeah, our client base right now some are based in Portland, but most if not all, have international presence. So we work with teams all over the world on that type of work.

Katty: And as a final statement, if there's one takeaway that you want people to have some this conversation, what would that be.

Allen: Life is short, let’s make work more joyful.

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www.theotheeros.com

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Eros Marcello a software engineer/ developer and architect specializing in human interfacing artificial intelligence, with a special focus on conversational AI systems, voice assistance, chat bots and ambient computing.

Eros has been doing this since 2015 and even though today for the rest of us laymen in the industry we're hearing about AI everywhere, for Eros this has been something he's been passionately working in for quite a few years.

Super excited to have him here to talk to us about artificial intelligence and help demystify some of the terminology that you all may be hearing out there.

I'm so excited to welcome Eros Marcello to this conversation to learn a little bit more about AI. He is so fully well versed in it and has been working in AI at since 2015, when it was just not even a glimmer in my eyes so I'm so glad that to have somebody here who's an expert in that space.

Eros glad to have you here I would love to just jump into the conversation with you. For many of us this this buzz that we're hearing everywhere sounds new, as if it's just suddenly come to fruition. But that is clearly not the case, as it's been around for a long time, and you've been involved in it for a long time.

Can you take us to as a creative, as an artist, as an architect, as an engineer take us through your genesis and how did you get involved and how did you get started. Let's just start at the beginning.

Eros:

The beginning could be charted back sequentially working in large format facilities, as surprise surprise the music industry, which you know was the initial interest and was on the decline. You'd have this kind of alternate audio projects, sound design projects that would come into these the last remaining, especially on the East and West, Northeast and So-cal areas, the last era of large format analog-based facilities with large recording consoles and hardware and tape machines.

I got to experience that, which was a great primer for AI for many reasons, we'll get more into that later.

So what happened was that you'd have voiceover coming in for telephony systems, and they would record these sterile, high-fidelity captures of voice that would become the UI sound banks, or used for speech synthesis engines for call centers.

That was the exposure to what was to come with voice tech folks in that space, the call center world, that really started shifting my gears into what AI machine learning was and how I may fit into it.

Fast forward, I got into digital signal processing and analog emulation, so making high caliber tools for Pro Tools, Logic, Cubase , Mac and PC for sound production and music production. specifically analog circuitry emulation and magnetic tape emulation “in the box” as it's called that gave me my design and engineering acumen.

Come 2015/2016, Samsung came along and said you’ve done voice-over, know NLP, machine learning, and AI, because I studied it and acquired the theoretical knowledge and had an understanding of the fundamentals. I didn't know where I fit yet, and then they're like so you know about, plus you’re into voice, plus you have design background with the software that you worked on. I worked on the first touchscreen recording console called the Raven MTX for a company called Slate Digital. So I accidentally created the trifecta that was required to create what they wanted to do which was Bigxby which was Samsung's iteration of the series for the Galaxy S8 and they wanted me to design the persona… and that as they say is history.

Samsung Research America, became my playground they moved me up from LA to the Bay Area and that was it.

It hasn't really stopped since it's been a meteoric ascension upward. They didn't even know what to call it back then, they called it a UX writing position, but UX writers don't generate large textual datasets and annotate data and then batch and live test neural networks. Because that's what I was doing, so I was essentially doing computational linguistics on the fly.

And on top of it in my free time I ingratiated myself with a gentleman by the name of Gus who was head of deep learning research there and because I just happened to know all of these areas that fascinated me in the machine learning space, and because I was a native English speaker, I found a niche where they allowed me to not only join the meetings, but help them prepare formalized research and presentations which only expanded my knowledge base.

I mean we're looking into really cutting-edge stuff at the time, AutoML, Hyperparameter tuning and Param ILS and things in the realms of generative adversarial neural networks which turned me on to the work of Ian Goodfellow, who was until I got there was an Apple employee and now it's gone back to Google Deep Mind.

He's the father of Generative Adversarial Neural Networks, he's called the GANfather and that's really it the rest is history. I got into Forbes when I was at Samsung and my Hyperloop team got picked to compete at SpaceX, so it was a lot that happened in a space of maybe 90 days.

Katty

You were at the right place at the right time, but you were certainly there at a time where opportunities that exist today didn't exist then and you were able to forge that. I also can see that there are jobs that will be coming up in AI that don't exist today. It's just such an exciting time to be in this space and really forge forward and craft a path based on passion and yours clearly was there.

So you've used a lot of words that are regular nomenclature for you, but I think for some of the audience may not be can you take us through…adversarial I don't even know what you said adversarial … Yes Generative Adversarial Neural Networks.

Eros

A neural network is the foundational machine learning technique, where you provide curated samples of data, be it images or text, to a machine learning algorithm neural network which is trained, as it's called, on these samples so that when it's deployed in the real world it can do things like image recognition, facial recognition, natural language processing, and understanding.

It does it by showing it, it's called supervised learning, so it's explicitly hand-labeled data, you know, this picture is of a dog versus this is a picture of a cat, and then when you deploy that system in production or in a real-world environment it does its best to assign confidence scores or domain accuracy to you know whether it's a cat or a dog.

You take generative adversarial neural networks and that is the precipice of what we see today is the core of MidJourney and Stable Diffusion and image-to-image generation when we're seeing prompts to image tools.

Suffice it to say generative adversarial networks are what is creating a lot of these images or, still image to 3D tools, you have one sample of data and then you have this sort of discriminator and there's a waiting process that occurs and that's how a new image is produced. because the pixel density and tis diffused, it's dispersed by you know by brightness and contrasts across the image and that can actually generate new images.

Katty

So for example if an artist is just dabbling with Dall-E, let's say, and they put in the prompt so they need to put in to create something, that's really where it's coming from, it's all the data that is already been fed into the system.

Eros

Right, like Transformers which again are the type of neural network that's used in ChatGPT or Claude, there are really advanced recurrent neural networks. And current neural networks were used a lot for you know NLP and language understanding systems and language generation and text generation systems. Prior, they had a very hard ceiling and floor, and Transformers are the next step.

But yeah more or less prompt to image. Again tons of training that assigns, that parses the semantics and assigns that to certain images and then to create that image there's sequence to sequence processes going on. Everyone's using something different, there's different techniques and approaches but more or less you have Transformers.

Your key buzzwords are Transformers, Large Language models, Generative AI, and Generative neural networks. It's in that microcosm of topics that we're seeing a lot of this explode and yes they have existed for a while.

Katty

Where should somebody start? Let's say you have a traditional digital designer who doesn't really come from an engineering or math background like you didn't and they can see that this is impacting or creating opportunities within their space-- where should they start?

Eros

First and foremost leveling up what they can do. Again, that fundamental understanding, that initial due diligence, I think sets the tone and stage for success or failure, in any regard, but especially with this. Because you're dealing with double exponential growth and democratization to the tune where like we're not even it's not even the SotA state-of-the-art models, large language models that are the most astounding.

If you see in the news Open AI is and looking at certain economic realities of maintaining. What is really eclipsing everything is and what's unique to this boom over like the.com bubble or even the initial AI bubble is the amount of Open Source effort being apportioned and that is you know genie out of the bottle for sure when it comes to something of this where you can now automate automation just certain degrees. So we're going to be seeing very aggressive advancement and that's why people are actually overwhelmed by everything. I mean there's a new thing that comes out not even by the day but seemingly by the minute.

I'm exploring for black AI hallucinations, which for the uninitiated hallucinations are the industry term they decided to go with for erroneous or left field output from these large language models. I'm exploring different approaches to actually leverage that as an ideation feature, so the sky is the limit when it comes to what you can do with these things and the different ways people are going to use it.

Just because it's existed it's not like it's necessarily old news as much as it's fermented into this highly productized, commoditized thing now which is innovation in it and of itself.

So where they would start is really leveling up, and identifying what these things can do. And not trying to do with them on their own battlefield. So low hanging fruit you have to leverage these tools to handle that and quadruple down on your high caliber skill set on your on what makes you unique, on your specific brand, even though that word makes me cringe a little bit sometimes, but on your on your strengths, on what a machine can't do and what's not conducive to make a machine do and it's does boil down to common sense.

Especially if you're a subject matter expert in your domain, a digital designer will know OK well Dall-E obviously struggles here and there, you know it can make a logo but can it make you know this 3D scene to the exact specifications that I can?

I mean there's still a lot of headroom that is so hyper-specific it would never be economically, or financially conducive to get that specific with this kind of tools that handle generalized tasks.

What we're vying for artificial general intelligence so we're going to kind of see a reversal where it's that narrow skill set that is going to be, I think, ultimately important. Where you start is what are you already good at and make sure you level up your skills by tenfold. People who are just getting by, who dabble or who are just so so, they're going to be displaced.

I would say they start by embracing the challenge, not looking at it as a threat, but as an opportunity, and again hyper-focusing on what they can do that's technical, that's complex, quadrupling on that hyper-focusing on it, highlighting and marketing on that point and then automating a lot of that lower tier work that comes with it, with these tools where and when appropriate.

Katty

I would imagine just from a thinking standpoint and a strategy standpoint and the creative process that one needs to go through, that's going to be even more important than before, because in order to be able to give the prompts to AI, you have to really have to strategize where you want to take it, what you want to do with it, otherwise it's information in and you're going to get garbage out.

Eros

Right absolutely. And it depends on the tool, it depends on the approach of the company and manufacturer, creators of the tool. You know Midjourney, their story is really interesting. The gentleman who found that originally founded Leap Motion, which was in the 2010s that gesture-based platform that had minor success. He ended up finding Midjourney and denying Apple two acquisition attempts, and like we're using Discord as a means for deployment and many other things simultaneously and to great effect.

So it's the Wild West right now but it's an exciting time to be involved because it's kind of like when Auto-tune got re-popularized. For example it all kind of comes back to that music audio background because Autotune was originally a hardware box. That's what Cher used on her song and then you have folks that you know in the 2010s T-Pain and Little Wayne and everybody came along it became a plug-in, a software plug-in, and all of a sudden it was on everything and now it's had its day, it had 15 minutes again, and then it kind of dialed back to where it's used for vocal correction. It’s used as a utility now rather than a kind of a buzzy effect.

Katty

Another thing to demystify.. Deep fake—what is that?

Yes deep fake, can be voice cloning, which is neural speech synthesis and then you have deep fakes that are visual, so you have you know face swapping, as it's called.

You have very convincing deep fakes speeches, and you have voice clones that that more or less if you're not paying attention can sound and they're getting better again by the day.

Katty

What are the IP implications of that even with the content that's created on some of these other sources?

Eros

The IP implications in Japan passed that the data used that's you know regenerated, it kind of goes back I mean it's not if you alter something enough, a patent or intellectual property laws don't cover it because it's altered, and to prove it becomes an arbitrary task for it has an arbitrary result that's subjective.

Katty

You are the founder and chief product architect of BlackDream.ai. Tell us a little bit more about that what the core focus?

Eros:

So initially again it was conceived to research computer vision systems, adversarial machine intelligence. There's adversarial prompt injection, where you can make a prompt to go haywire if you kind of understand the idiosyncrasies of the specific model dealing with, or if you in construction of the model, found a way to cause perturbations in the data set, like basically dilute or compromise the data that it's being trained on with malice. To really kind of study those effects, how to create playbooks against them, how to make you know you know zero trust fault tolerant playbooks, and methodologies to that was the ultimate idea.

There's a couple moving parts to it, it's part consultancy to establish market fit so on the point now where again, Sandhill Road has been calling, but I've bootstrapped and consulted as a means of revenue first to establish market fit.

So I've worked for companies and with companies, consulted for defense initiatives, for SAIC and partnering with some others. I have some other strategic partnerships that are currently in play. We have two offices, a main office at NASA/Ames, our headquarters is that is a live work situation, at NASA Ames / Moffett field in Mountain View CA so we are in the heart of Silicon Valley and then a satellite office at NASA Kennedy Space Center ,at the in the astronauts memorial building, the longevity of that which you know it's just a nice to have at this point because we are Silicon Valley-based for many reasons, but it's good to be present on both coasts.

So there's an offensive cyber security element that's being explored, but predominantly what we're working on and it's myself as the sole proprietor with some third party resources, more or less friends from my SpaceX /Hyperloop team and some folks that I've brokered relationships with along the way at companies I've contracted with or consulted for.

I’ve made sure to kind of be vigilant for anyone who's, without an agenda, just to make sure that I maintain relationships with high performers and radically awesome and talented people which I think is I've been successful in doing. So I have a small crew of nonpareil, second to none talent, in the realm of deep learning, GPU acceleration, offensive cyber security, and even social robotics, human interfacing AI as I like to call it.

So that's where Blackdream.ai is focusing on: adversarial machine intelligence research and development for the federal government and defense and militaristic sort of applications

Katty

This image of an iceberg comes to mind that we only see in the tip of it over the water you know with the fun everybody's having with the Dall-Es and the ChatGPT's but just the implication of it, what is happening with the depth of it ….fascinating!!

Thank you you for being with us and just allowing us to kind of just maybe dip our toe a little bit under the water and to just see a little bit of what's going on there. I don't know if I'm clearer about it or if it was just a lot more research needs to be now done on my part to even learn further about it.

But I really want to thank you for coming here. I know you're very active in the space and you speak constantly on about AI and you're coming up soon on “Voice and AI”.

And where can people find you if they wanted to reach out and talk to you some more about this or have some interest in learning more about Blackdream.ai?

The websites about to be launched Blackdream.AI. On Linkedin I think only Eros Marcello around and www.theotheeros.com, the website was sort of a portfolio. Don't judge me I'm not a web designer but I did my best. It came out OK and then you have LinkedIn, Instagram its Eros Marcello on Twitter/X its ErosX Marcello.

I try to make sure that I'm always up to something cool so I'm not an influencer by any stretch or a thought-leader, but I certainly am always getting into some interesting stuff, be it offices at NASA Kennedy Space Center, or stranded in Puerto Rico…. you never know. It's all a little bit of reality television sprinkled into the tech.

Katty:

Before I let you go what's the last message you want to leave the audience with?

Eros:

Basically like you know I was I grew up playing in hardcore punk bands and you know. Pharma and Defense, AI for government and Apple AI engineer, none of that was necessarily in the cards for me, I didn't assume. So my whole premise is, I know I may be speaking about some on higher levels things or in dealing more in the technicalities than the seemingly, the whole premise is that you have to identify as a creative that this is a technical space and the technical is ultimately going to inform the design.

And I didn't come out of the womb or hail from you know parents who are AI engineers. This isn't like a talent, this is an obsession. So if I can learn this type of knowledge and apply it, especially in this rather succinct amount of time I have, that means anyone can. I mean it's not some secret sauce or method to it, it's watch YouTube videos or read papers, you know tutorials, tutorials, tutorials.

Anyone can get this type of knowledge, and I think it's requisite that they do to bolster and support and scale their creative efforts. So this is gonna be a unique situation in space and time where that you know the more technical you can get, or understand or at least grasp the better output creatively the right it will directly enrich and benefit your creative output and I think that's a very kind of rare symmetry that isn't really inherent in a lot of other things but if I can do it anyone.

I love it thank you for this peek into what's going on the defense component of it, the cyber security component of it, the IP component of it… there just so many implications that are things we need to talk about and think about, so thank you for starting that conversation.

Absolutely pleasure I appreciate you having me on hopefully we do this again soon.

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Rachel Cooke | Lead Above Noise | Modern Mentor Podcast

Katty: Today, I have the pleasure of welcoming Rachel Cooke to our session here today and talking about the employee experience and why it is so impactful for both engagement as well as retention in our companies. Welcome, Rachel. So happy to have you here. I’m excited to talk to you about this incredibly impactful journey that our employees go through and that we go through as business owners and as managers of our teams.

Katty: I had the pleasure of hearing and meeting Rachel at the Association of Talent Development Conference in San Diego. We've been talking about having her on here so that we can talk about the WHY of this amazing initiative, as well as the road trip that Rachel refers to when she talks about the employee experience. Why don't we start there? Let's talk about this journey, this road trip that we're on.

Rachel: That's awesome. You have such a good memory, Katty. I do love a good metaphor when I talk about these things. I use the road trip metaphor, you could pick many, but I think sometimes, something like the employee experience can feel kind of cloudy and ethereal and nobody quite knows how to wrap their hands around it. And so, I like to say that the employee experience is a journey and I think about it as a road trip and it has these three core elements.

To take a successful road trip, you need a destination; you need to understand where you are going, you need a road map; you need some turn-by-turn directions, and then hopefully you've got some fuel in the tank, and if you're lucky, some snacks and a playlist, but something to sort of fuel you or give momentum to your journey. That's how I like to think about it.

Katty: I love that. Can we start at the beginning of that employee experience? We're in the recruitment space here at Artisan Creative and I sometimes get the impression that the employee experience for some companies starts after the onboarding. But we see the employee experience, the candidate experience if you will, even before being hired. You know how the interviews are conducted, how they're being responded to during that whole application process. So maybe it's the pre-journey of the journey, right, the conversation, and that state. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Rachel: Yeah, I see your pre-candidate experience and I would say it goes back even further than that which is the experience that your existing employees are having within your organization, such that they are going to be ambassadors of and successful recruiters of that talent to whom you want to deliver that amazing candidate experience. I do think it is always ongoing and continuous.

I think fundamentally for me, what stands out about the employee experience and where a lot of well-intentioned companies are getting it wrong, is that I think companies tend to think about the work that we're doing and then the employee experience, that we think about later when we have free time. Which spoiler, we never have free time. I believe that a real powerful employee experience fuels rather than follows the work.

I think employee experience is not about free food, foosball tables, and sort of fancy cocktail parties. It begins with how we enable our employees to deliver the work that we have hired them to do.

I think that resonates even in the interview process. Even in the recruitment process, I see organizations posting roles and then running these potential candidates through the wringer with really complex application processes. You've got applicant tracking systems, you've got recruiters that have this as #17 on the priority list and people are interviewing with 27 different people and then waiting months and months and frankly, in a buyers' market, which we may not be in right now but we will be in again it's an off-putting experience for somebody to have.

For me, the fundamental first question is what can we be doing as organizations to streamline and simplify how we are finding, attracting, and recruiting top talent? Where can we strip out some of the noise I can guarantee, there is plenty in there.

Katty: Absolutely. I 100% agree with you. I recorded a mini session on the whole interviewing journey and that's what I talked about. Sometimes, our intent as a company is to make sure all stakeholders are involved, make sure everybody has a voice, and everybody has had the chance to meet the new candidate, the new prospect if you will. But the implication of that is very different and how it lands on someone could be very different. Sometimes we don't look at that side of it as to how it is my six-step interview process and assessment reflecting on us as a company.

Rachel: I could not agree more. You might recall that in the presentation I gave at ATD, I talked about these four pillars of the employee experience which are very much about asking the question, what are we as an organization doing to enable our teams to effectively deliver, develop, connect, and thrive?

To me, when we get those things right, we are both fueling work results and outcomes and we are effectively engaging our employees. In that parlance, going back to this recruitment experience, in recruitment engagement, our goal is to find top talent and bring them into the organization, right? What we should be asking in the organization is if we want our existing talent to do our internal recruiters or hiring leaders, what we need them to deliver in this context is top talent to our organization. We need to be asking questions about what we can do to help them deliver that result more effectively and often it is stripping out extra voices, extra process steps, and extra approvals. It is streamlining the process. It is getting to the heart of the matter. It's not having 17 different people ask this person the same 25 questions. So on when we're thinking about it all of our work, all of the pieces of the employee life cycle through this lens of how to help people deliver, develop, connect, and thrive. That first question is to deliver and so I think in so many recruiting processes we have all of these extra steps and overwrought decision-making processes and approvals, and, you know we have 17 different systems that need to talk to each other.

We have made it so much harder for our internal recruiters to deliver, which means finding the candidate and bringing them in. How do we simplify it? How do we streamline it? How do we empower the right people to get it done quickly and effectively?

Katty: I love that. Can you dive a little bit more into each of those steps and what could a company do as they're trying to enhance their employee experience, what can they do in the delivery stage, the development stage, the connect stage, and the thrive stage that really would deliver that?

Rachel: When we were at the ATD conference, and we had the good fortune of watching a keynote delivered by Adam Grant, who is a tremendously renowned Organizational Psychologist, Leadership Researcher, and Speaker, something he said that resonated with me was that in the current environment that we're in, the number one most critical leadership capability he said it's not a lot of intelligence, it's not charisma, it's not vision, it's not all these things. The number one most critical leadership capability that any leader needs today is agility; the ability to quickly pivot and to see what's happening at the moment and be able to flex.

That resonated with me because that very much aligns with the way that I think about the employee experience. I think that what's happening is that organizations are looking for those best practices out there. What are the experts saying we should do around development? What are the experts saying we should be doing to drive connection?

The way that I think about it is the best way to enable your employees to deliver their best results, and their best impact, the best way to get them to develop new skills and to feel invested in and grow and be coached. The best way to help them connect, whether you are hybrid or remote, you know the best way to help them connect, with customer with purposes, and finally, the best ways to help them thrive, which to me is about feeling well and balanced and whole is you've got to understand where they are today and where they need to be.

I think where so many people are seeking those external best practices, what they need to be doing is seeking the expertise of their internal experts, which are their teams, and their employees.

When I run an employee experience audit with a company, what I don't do is come in and tell them what to do. What I do is I come in and help them understand this framework. Why are these the four pillars? And we talk about some data around why delivering, developing, connecting, and thriving are so important. But the expertise that I bring is in the asking and the facilitating and the synthesizing.

So my expertise is not in the ideas or the tactics. My expertise is in framing and asking and soliciting ideas from employees so that I can come back to a leadership team and say, here's how well your employees are currently able to deliver, develop, connect, and thrive.

Here are some of your blind spots, your opportunity areas. We're going to assume positive intent, you mean to do well, but here is a place where people are struggling to deliver because they're struggling to access this system. These types of decisions take too long to make.

Or in the develop bucket, you've got a million courses in your learning management system, but nobody can find time to do the learning, or there's not a culture of coaching. What about upskilling your leaders?

My expertise and the value I bring to an organization is tapping into the wisdom that they are sitting on and they didn't even realize it. When an organization can open its ears and be agile and say, OK, whatever employees need at the moment, that's what we're going to do. That's where we're going to leverage that Adam Grant wisdom that's where I see the employee experience start to shift quickly and meaningfully.

Katty: Love that. And I should have known that because agility is one of our core values. But the word was just out of my mind.

Rachel: You’re doing it so organically, you don't even think about it.

Katty: There you go. That must be it. But thank you for saying that because you are right. We forget that sometimes those little things may seem little and I will get to it later, but impact what that experience is. Not being able to have your different technology pieces talk to each other and having to do ten steps to do something that would only take two steps in reality and so forth. So I love this notion of every organization has its potential and its opportunity bucket. You go in there and you can find out what that is.

I would imagine part of that whole component of that employee experience also is how much they feel heard and seen and belonging and that whole component of that teamwork plays profoundly around that.

Rachel: Absolutely. I so often go into organizations that have these robust employee engagement surveys that they run once a year and then they get all the data and they spend months crunching and analyzing and slicing and dicing, and from the employee perspective, they're like we took the survey three months ago, I haven't heard squat. My voice doesn't matter and I'm not going to waste my time doing next year's survey. Whereas with these employee experience pulse checks, I call them, it is fast.

I go in, I run these focus groups and we turn around results within a week and we deliver a set of actions. Recommended, small actions. They don't need lots of dollars and lots of approvals. Tweaks. It's a series of experiments. Let's try making all of our 60-minute meeting default is now 45 minutes versus 60. Or we don't do meetings on Fridays. Or let's experiment with instead of me, the leader always running our team meetings, we're going to take turns running them because people want an opportunity to have that leadership experience.

We look for these small, quick-to-implement experiments that we can run and we run them through the language of employee experience. So we invite employees into these focus groups, we capture their ideas, and we reported out quickly. Then as we start implementing ideas, we say we're doing this, “we're changing our meeting times, we're changing how we run meetings because of your voice, because of your input, it matters”. Employees feel heard and they feel valued.

One of the conversations I love having is when I run these pulse checks and I sit down with the clients and I report out the results and the client says, “Well, where do we start”? I love to be able to say you already have started.

Just through the action of asking these questions, not in a survey where people are filling out boxes, it's very static to solicit action-oriented intelligence. You want to invite people into a dialogue and by inviting them into a dialogue and just letting them ventilate, letting them get their voices heard, letting them say, “Oh my God, thank you for asking. I have spent 27 hours over the past year wrangling this process when it could be so much cleaner, but nobody's asked.” Just by asking and listening and playing it back to them, you've already started the journey. You've already given them that space, you've invited them in and you've heard them. You're already past the finish line. I find that clients kind of get excited about that. We're already at step two. That's fabulous. Let's keep going.

Katty: Beautiful. There's so much wisdom in what you're saying because sometimes just because we've done things a certain way all along doesn't mean there's not an opportunity to make a change. Hearing that coming from somebody else's voice is so impactful. Some people see things differently, so why not listen to them?

Rachel: Absolutely. And these are the people executing the processes. These are the people who are engaging with your customers or engaging with your candidates. They're the ones who see and feel the pain points. So their inputs matter more than anyone's.

Katty: Exactly. This brings me to the development component of your 4 pillars. You talk often about career development and just that internal mobility and just having this opportunity to have your voice heard and showcase what you're capable of is a great opportunity to hopefully advance within your team, advance within your company. When it comes to the recruitment phase, bringing it back to that, I often ask our clients, "Have you looked within? Is there anyone on your team that can do this or you can train or is there an opportunity for that before we start looking outside?” That's the last thing I want is to be looking outside it, then somebody internally not being recognized or at the 11th hour the client said, oh, we found somebody internal. Let's have that conversation ahead of the game.

Rachel: Absolutely. I'm not a recruitment expert, but I did use to work as an HR business partner and so I partnered with recruitment one of the things that I always found with my business partners is what they would put together, you know a job description or job rack and there would be like 17 required. Do you really like the person who's going to do this job? If you want to prioritize these 17 required skills and rank them one through 17, can you do that? And they would do that. And I would say, let's look at numbers 13 through 17, what if somebody didn't have those? Could they still be successful at that job? And the answer was almost always yes. And then I would say, well, what about numbers 9 through 13?

I think as leaders we tend to write these job descriptions, and like the fantasy person would be amazing at absolutely everything. When the reality is, we need to be more discerning at hiring leaders around what fundamentally does this person need to be able to do on day one? Where can we leverage somebody who may have less, let's say technical capability, but they've been within our organization for three years and they know how things work and they got our culture and they have relationships with our clients. How do we think about weighing the value of those things relative to expertise in the XYZ system? Right, because that stuff is trainable. But this three years' worth of interior knowledge and understanding of how to get things done, that just takes three years. You can't quickly onboard somebody to that.

I do love to challenge organizations to think a little bit more differently and openly about what is really required and what is maybe the value of some of your internal candidates that you are taking for granted and where can we start to weigh the value of what somebody internally brings versus somebody external.

Katty: I love that we are so aligned on that. I often talk about what are the must-have skills and what are the nice-to-haves. Nice-to-haves are great to have, but are they a deal breaker? If they're not, let's somehow distinguish them on that job description and also the hard skills versus the soft skills; the EQ piece of it is so important. What if somebody had all the technical skills but didn't have any of the soft skills that you're looking for? They didn't have the communication skills, didn't have the leadership skills, didn't have a teamwork mindset, like all of those things, are almost even more important because you can teach the technical component if needed.

Rachel: Absolutely and not to mention, and I don't want to take us too far on a tangent, but there's a ton of data out there and I'm sure you've seen it that shows statistically a woman is much less likely to apply for a job unless she possesses 100% of the skills listed, whereas a man statistically pretty much he just needs three and he's going to go for it, right? So we are unwittingly limiting our talent pool and frankly limiting our ability to build pipelines of women leaders, which I think a lot of organizations are focusing on right now. The more skills we require, the more heavily we're going to wait for our applicant pool towards men. This is women, and I think that's something we just need to be aware of.

Katty: Very valid point. Thank you for bringing that up. Can we talk about “Filtering Out the Ins”? Can you talk a little bit about that and what that was in greater detail?

Rachel: I think that part of what confuses people about the employee experience, like I was saying earlier, I think we can feel kind of like everything, right? What isn't the employee experience? For me the question to be asking isn't what is and what isn't the employee experience.

A better question to ask is where can we have an impact on the employee experience? I talk about filtering out the four Ins and I'll tell you what they are in just a second. But for me, the four In’s are areas that do touch the employee experience, but they are not where we get the bang for our buck. I'd like to filter them out so that we can focus on where we do get impact. The first one is what I call the intangible and that is your organizational culture. I think of organizational culture like the weather, it's like the climate, it touches us, it impacts the choices that we make, but it takes many, many actions. Over long stretches of time to shift the weather, shift the climate, shift organizational culture. So it matters, but it's not where we get impact, so I filter it out.

The second “in” that I filter out is what I call the inaccessible. These are things like your compensation philosophy, the location, or the layout of your physical building. They are things that again impact our employee experience, but they are only informed by decisions made at the very top of your organization, right? Leaders in most organizations are not able to influence your comp philosophy or your physical location. So again, not a lot of bang for your buck when only C-level executives can touch it. So we filter it out, we filter out the intangible and we filter out the inaccessible.

The third that I filter out is what I call the indelible or the unerasable. And these are things that I consider table stakes. Things like having fair market rate compensation, having basic policies that keep people feeling safe, and having an equitable approach to leading your workforce. These are the things that if you get them right, they're invisible. They're not winning you in any contest, but if you get them wrong, they're going to destroy your employee experience. So just get them to baseline and then. Nobody wins the employee experience contest by having fair, inequitable policies. So that's the third one, the indelible.

Then the 4th one I adorably call incase you have money to burn. And these are what I think of as sexy extras. These are the free food, the foosball tables, and the fancy holiday parties. I call these the sizzle and fizzle. So they're like a sugar rush to your employee experience. They're exciting, they're fun, and then we acclimate. They're not the things that drive our experience. So when you can filter out the intangible, which is culture, and the inaccessible, which are those things only decided by the top. The indelible, are your hygiene factors or your table stakes, and then in case you have money to burn or your sexy extras, you filter those out, where you're left is focusing on creating the conditions that allow us to deliver, develop, connect, and thrive. And that's how I get there. We've taken the road trip backward. But I still love it.

Katty: Well you know sometimes when you're on a road trip you have to make sure that you're not taking a turn in the wrong direction.

Rachel: We're checking the rearview.

Katty: We're making sure that our Google Maps is connected to the satellite still. How's that for just taking that analogy and just running with it?

Rachel: I love it. I love what you did there. How would you encourage a management team to start looking at this puzzle piece? For some companies, it is a puzzle piece. They may not even know where to start. I would say there's a macro and a micro. There's the employee experience from an organizational standpoint. But, also really looking at each team and how that team leads is leading that experience within that. So how would you say for someone who's never done this before, maybe they don't even have an onboarding program. This is another conversation for another day, but how would they even begin this process?

Rachel: I believe that the process genuinely begins with education and alignment. I go into several organizations and I'll talk to a handful of senior leaders, and each one has a completely different definition of what the employee experience is or what matters. So I think if it begins with just bringing a leadership team together, having a conversation, providing an education on why these four pillars, right, What's the data behind why these are the four that matter and what do they mean, right? What are the things, when we think about what helps organizations deliver, we think about things like. Do we have the right number of priorities? Do we have alignment? Do we have tools and resources? Do we have obstacles being stripped out? When we think about what helps teams develop, do we have a culture of coaching? Do we know how to give feedback? Do we have on-the-job experience? Do we have peer mentors? So bringing a leadership team together, giving them the language of delivering, developing, connecting, and thriving, and just helping them understand what are some of.

Those bullets are underneath each of these pillars. I think it starts there because you cannot move an employee experience until you begin by just understanding what constitutes it.

So I always begin there. A lot of my engagements will begin with a keynote or an interactive workshop with the leadership team just to start building that language. From there, I love to encourage a leadership team or senior leaders to just start using that language within the organization because again, you've got employees walking around saying well I think the employee experience at Google is better because they do free food. What I think is important is that leadership teams start to talk about the employee experience through the lens of we want to fuel and not follow the real work. So it begins with conversations, from there, I think the next step is just a little bit of observation. Once we start thinking about the employee experience through the lens of deliver, develop, connect, and thrive, it helps us to put on a filter that suddenly now we can start to spot. Oh, you know what? I recognize as a senior leader, I've been sitting on this decision for three weeks and I'm now realizing seventeen people in this organization who have not been able to get anything done because I'm sitting with this thing on my desk. It helps us just to start to notice some of these opportunities. I think that that's really where it begins.

From a macro perspective, I think the executive leader's job is to have this language, have this awareness, start to talk about it, start to cascade it down to their leaders, and start to infuse it into the organization. I think you're right, Katty, that there are things that need to happen at the team level as well because a lot of times what's keeping the marketing team able to deliver is very different from what's holding back the HR team, the recruiting team, the finance team, and so on. Giving leaders at the function or team level some tools and some skills around what are some questions you can ask your team to solicit their ideas? How can you facilitate candid dialogues such that your employees will not just have the ideas but feel safe? Been offering them speaking up, How can you as a leader at that level start to implement experiments and have a sense to know if it's working or if it's not working, what's working well and how do we continue this?

I also love to talk about starting to infuse practice sharing conversation. So over time bringing leaders of different functions or teams together to share strategies. Oh, I tried this with my team and it worked incredibly well. Maybe you want to try this with your team. So I think it's a very organic process and this is why I call it a road trip. It's not a project it doesn't have you know it's not a one-month thing. It is a journey, right? It is always kind of ongoing, but you have to have clarity of that North Star and then invite your team to help you inform the road map or build the steps.

Katty: Sometimes it's not a straight line. There are bumps in the road and there are some curves and so forth.

So a final question. And it’s a big one it has to do with the hybrid workforce and this, you know, that we have to admit, work has changed. My company's been remote for 12 years, so having a remote workforce is a normal thing. We came together and we built culture, probably in a more focused and intentional culture building because we are remote. But now we're in the space of people wanting people back in the office and or trying to navigate the whole hybrid space, can we talk about the employee experience as it relates to the remote and or the hybrid workforce?

Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. I mean there is no doubt that things have changed significantly, and I don't believe anybody has cracked the nut on this yet. I think we've learned a lot. I think we still have a lot more to learn. I love to tell people one of the things I like to do in my free time is go hiking, very gently. I like a gentle hike. Sometimes you go to a public park and you will see a sign that says something like a “$500 fine for littering, be warned.” Other times you'll see a sign that says “Please help keep our parks clean, take your trash out with you”, and at the end of the day those both drive the same behavior in me. Either way, I am going to throw out my trash and not litter, but in that first example, that sort of threat-based example it makes, you know, this makes me wanna revolt. It's almost like, well, can I sneak a piece of trash in there? Don't talk to me that way. I'm a grown-up. But when you invite me to be a part of something bigger, you invite me to be one of the many who are keeping this beautiful public space clean. That inspires me and that excites me and I think about that.

The principle is, the way that we are bringing our teams together I think too many organizations in my opinion and my experience are going with the must be in the office three days a week or everyone's in on Tuesdays and Thursdays, which to me is sort of like that don't litter or will fine you sign because people resent it, right. When you are threatened and when you are forced, what you are compelled to do, the human reaction, the human gut reaction is “No, no, don't tell me what to do.” I think companies are without purpose, forcing people to do a thing that is backfiring. I'm not focused on keeping the park clean. I am focused on how angry I am at that sign.

What organizations want to be doing is driving engagement and driving in connection and by forcing people into an office, I think it's having the opposite effect.

What I'm encouraging leadership teams to do is to be thoughtful about it. Rather than Tuesdays and Thursdays, infuse purpose into those days. How about people come in when we're bringing customers in? Or people come in when there's a big brainstorming day. Or people come in when we're doing a leadership offsite or a learning event, when we infuse a sense of purpose and we're all together into bringing people physically into an office. I think that that can be so much more powerful. I think forcing people's hands is not the way to do it.

I just ran a meeting a couple of weeks ago. It was a 25-person leadership team. 50% of those people were physically together, including me. 50% were remote and I was not granted, I am a facilitator, so this is what I do for a living and I understand not every leader can be so thoughtful, but I was really thoughtful in how I designed that experience such that we made it feel, as much as possible, like everybody had an equivalent experience of that day.

I think the more thoughtful we can be when we're operating in a hybrid way to make sure that we're not doing exercises where half the people see things on the wall and half the people don't. To make sure that we are leveraging that virtual technology, I had people buddy up. So everybody who was participating remotely had a buddy in the room, and that was just their point of contact. And so if somebody participating remotely had an idea but couldn't raise their hand or couldn't hear something, they would ping their buddy, and their buddy would ping me. That's just one tactic but I think about being thoughtful about how we equalize the experience when we are operating remotely and not make people feel like first and second-class citizens based on where they're participating. These are just some of the things I have started to pick up along the way.

Katty: I appreciate that. I appreciate the buddy system quite a bit because sometimes, you may forget the person who's on the screen or not, you know. Sometimes they don't realize they're on mute and they're trying to say something and it's just not working. So we appreciate that buddy system.

So Rachel, as we wrap up, we talked a little bit about your expertise and what you bring to the table, but can you talk about Lead Above Noise, how it came to be, and where you see yourself growing in your practice?

Rachel: I started to Lead Above Noise in 2015, and I named the organization because I had worked for many years as an HR practitioner in big corporate America, and I found that as organizations, we just keep throwing more and more stuff at leaders and it feels like the leader's job is to somehow juggle more and more. Whereas, I believe that is the crux of being an effective leader and being a successful organization is really about understanding how to filter out all the noise and understand what to focus on and it's so hard to say no to the things that aren't going to fuel you forward and yet I think it's one of the most important things that we can do as leaders.

I really, truly believe that the most successful organizations in the world, I don't care how good your product or service is, your organization will only ever be as strong as the talent you've hired to deliver your products and services. So investing in your talent, understanding their experiences, and developing your leaders, I think is truly the secret to success. That is what we specialize in in Lead Above the Noise, we focus on employee experience. We do keynotes and we run these audits within organizations to help them build these action plans. And then I also run a group coaching program for leaders which is called SIMPLE, which is an acronym that focuses on building what I believe is kind of the six core skills, the six foundational skills. You used the phrase earlier, the must-have and the nice-to-have. I think especially when people are stepping into new leadership roles, they're trying to boil the ocean, they're trying to learn everything and I think I run this cohort-based program that helps leaders understand what they need most critically, start by building those skills and get really comfortable, confident, and then they can add other skills over time. So that's really where I spend my time.

Katty: I love it. There's a through line in everything that you've said, wrapping it up with SIMPLE, pretty much everything you've said from when we were talking about the job description. Taking things out of the job descriptions that aren't necessary, the four INs, you know, the Ins that you were talking about, taking those out of the, filtering them out, and then with the leadership that you just spoke about is, you know, just let's focus and simplify it. Let's just really get to the core of what it is that we need to do.

Anyways, there is so much noise around us and so much noise. Hard. But yeah, we've got to keep filtering. Yeah. Well, I appreciate your time. Thank you for being here, and thank you for sharing your wisdom with our audience. I loved this conversation.

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Desmond Lomax is a Senior Consultant, Master Facilitator, and Implementation Leader in Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion work at the Arbinger Institute.

Find Desmond on Linkedin

Arbinger books: Anatomy of Peace | The Outward Mindset | Leadership and Self-Deception

What I especially appreciated was how you were able to take this topic that is top of mind and many people out there are talking about it, but you were able to humanize it and you were able to allow the audience to be able to connect from a human to human level. That obviously is so important in every environment, every circle that we’re in.

For our conversation, I wanted to bring that into the workplace, specifically hiring and integrating new people into the mix. But before we get into that, I'd love to just know how you get involved in this line of work.

Desmond: I started in the prison system. I was a therapist for the prison system and it was my first introduction to marginalized people struggling to make it in society, outside of my personal experiences.

I can't think of too many things more difficult than coming out of a prison system and returning as a citizen of the society and not feeling that you have the capacity or the resources to be able to do that successfully.

So I went from a therapist to a manager, to a state director where I was in charge of all the programming outside of the prison in the state of Utah. From there, I started teaching courses in Forensic Social Work at the University of Utah. I'm a Licensed Clinical Therapist, so it all came together.

I started doing many podcasts and videos about the things I've learned, and then my son passed away. I lost a child, he was a freshman in college. He committed suicide. I found myself in this unique position where I was like okay, Dezzy, you’ve been through some stuff now, you know what it's like to lose a child to something horrific. What can you do differently in society to create a greater sense of inclusion and belonging?

I think that's what motivates me. My son seemed isolated and alone, even though we talked every day. We had a lot of communication and people cared about him, but there just wasn't a sense of belonging for him. I wanted to do something about that. I just took all of this background and my knowledge and as I was working with Arbinger, I joined their design team, and we created the curriculum called Outward Inclusion and I spent the last few years sharing the message of what it looks like in your organization and in your space where we can, 1) see the humanity of another person, and then 2) understand our impact on that humanity.

As simple as that sounds, there are things that we all have that interfere with our ability to do those two basic things. I've been working all over this country, all over internationally, just doing the work, being motivated by the loss I've experienced and the knowledge that I've gained.

Katty: Thank you for sharing that and heartfelt condolences. I don't know how long ago that was, but it's always fresh in the heart of anyone who's lost someone. Thank you for sharing that with us. I appreciate that you took something so devastating and you were able to turn it around and then bring positive impact to others from it.

Desmond: Yes, I hope so. What I've learned is that loss is energy. It's bonafide energy and either you do something with it, or it does something with you. I would like to say there are all these other options, but either that is the same energy that is just really hard. I've seen both of them in my life so I'm not trying to say I'm on one side or the other. But loss is a lot of energy that you need to transform into something or else that loss will transform you. That's what I've learned and that's what I'm trying to do.

Katty: Thank you for doing that and thank you for including us in that conversation. Let's go back to the two-pointers that you mentioned. The first one was seeing the humanity in each other and the second one was impacting humanity. Can you talk a little bit more about that and how it impacts the workspace, specifically as we bring in new people into that workspace; a brand new hire joining an existing team that's been together for a long time?

Desmond: I love that, Katty. I always say to people, good people, good hard-working people are often blind to their impact on others. The first step to understanding my impact is to humanize aspects of the workplace. If I'm not humanizing the workplace, and I'm seeing people as objects, either vehicles that are doing the work I need them to do, or obstacles that aren't doing the work I need to do or relevancies. When I see people through that lens, what’s happening is that I'm spending a lot of time justifying my view of a human being good enough, and spending a lot less time understanding that human being in a way in which I can be more effective.

Thus, the new employee coming into the workplace my view and my objectification of that new employee can impact my ability to improve their life-work situations.

If they approach it like “Here comes a new employee. It’s going to take nine months to get them on board. Three months to do this and one month...” If all they are is a problem that I now have to carry until I get them to a point of efficiency, they will sense that and they will resist. What we've learned is that all people will resist being objectified.

If we can start looking at the resistance in our lives and how we are seeing people and their resistance to us, we can start to recognize that maybe there are ways in which I see this person, ways in which I objectify this person that might be creating some of this resistance.

Katty: You're saying that they're resisting because there's a feeling of sensing something coming from us that's creating that? They're putting their guards up. Is that what's happening?

Desmond: Absolutely. Well, it's twofold. One thing, yes. A lot of times when we have resistance, it's because people have a sense of objectification. They see us objectifying them.

The twofold is this, we may be doing things to objectify them and they may have emotional luggage that they bring with them to the circumstance where they've been objectified in the past that can also create some of those feelings. It can be twofold. It's not necessarily all on our side.

As leaders, as people who are supervising, people who are co-workers, and we have a direct impact on people, we can only work on the latter part; our impact. How we impact these folks so that they feel seen, they feel valued, they feel they're a part of the process, and they feel amid all the difficulties that come along with work, that they matter to us. That’s the part that we can control.

Katty That we can hear their voices, right?

Desmond: Yes. We can read a lot of books like, “How to Influence People and Make Friends,” and gain all the tools in the world, but people have a sense of when you acknowledge their humanity or not. What we’ve recognized is that in the hustle and bustle of work, when we’re trying to accomplish what we need to accomplish, at times we are not humanizing the process. We do not see people as people and they are responding in a way that's resistant to us as their leaders or co-workers.

Katty: What would you recommend both from the person who's starting their job, as you said, they're also bringing their baggage into the mix. We all have them, right? We travel with them. Hopefully one day we can set them down and lose that baggage.

We're bringing that with us into a new role and our teammates, supervisors, all of them, everybody has their baggage of life with them. Right? How do we go about creating a space and creating dialogue around not allowing that to permeate? I would imagine that even during the interviewing phase, that probably can show up. Right?

Desmond: Yes, this is something I've recently done in my whole life. I recently moved to a beautiful little town on the border of Maryland and Pennsylvania side of the base and Mason Dixon Line. 35 minutes from Baltimore. Amish countries. I get the best of both worlds. I can have a fresh pretzel one night and a crab cake the next night. Anyway, I'm in heaven.

We've been here for a year. We spend more time inside of our house fixing up our house may be engaging with the community. I go to my wife, like, “Hey, it's the Fourth of July. The Lions International Club is looking for volunteers. Let's do some social exercise.” Let's just get out and meet people and connect with people. It's a social exercise. We went out there for two days, we volunteered, flipped burgers and prepped hotdogs and hamburgers, and met a lot of people in the community. We have our social baggage; we have our challenges and fears that are associated with connecting with new people and being in a new space.

In the midst of all that, we have to practice social exercise, social work, and our ability to connect with others in meaningful ways. If I'm the new employee, I may be disappointed if I'm waiting for someone to engage me positively. I remember one of my first days at the prison. I worked as a correctional officer for many years and then became a therapist. The correctional work wasn't for me. I wanted to help and I didn't feel like I was helping, so I became a therapist. On my first day as a therapist, one of the supervisors goes, “Hey, what are you doing here? Don't you work somewhere else now?” I said no, I came here. He looked at me and he goes, “Why would you do that? This is horrible.” That was my first day at work. Sometimes, the social exercise we get from others is not the most positive thing. Sometimes, as new employees, If we don't socially engage multiple people, we'll find ourselves in a situation where the people that are engaging us can be bringing a lot of negative energy. For the new employee, social engagement and social exercise, meeting new people communicating with people, sharing your background, and gaining a deeper understanding of others is just a great way to acclimate very quickly into the process.

For new employees, it's the same type of work. For every person that comes in, there should be a system in place. We can understand them in a way that extends beyond the work and what I mean by that is when people feel seen and valued, you understand their role, and they feel supported, they work at higher levels than those that don't.

There's this generation that I come from, where it’s like I care about you because I give you a paycheck. That's my way of saying that you've worked, good job. You get a paycheck.

Somebody's like, “Desmond, I'm confused what’s with all this seen, valued, have a voice, and roles? Back in the day, you gave me a paycheck and I'm unhappy. People have changed. Pandemics will do that to them. People will change. They want more from their work environment. As leaders, a part of our social exercise is helping those people that we're supervising or co-working with feel that sense of belonging that's needed for work performed.

Katty: What would you say to the managers who are in charge of creating that welcoming, open environment, how do they go about humanizing that connection and roll out the carpet, that welcome carpet for their new people?

Desmond: I've got a great story about when I was a State Director. I realized that a lot of people didn't like me. So I was reflecting on what can you do when people inherently don't like you. Because I think it's the position when you are in charge and you make hard decisions. I think it's also the personality. Some people like my personality, some people can't stand me. It’s the nature of life. It's okay.

I realized that as a leader, the only way for people to see you or recognize your personhood is for you to make them a priority. So as a leader, everyone that got hired, I tell all my regional managers, you go to the HR to make sure they get all the paperwork done. You come right to my office. We have a 30-minute meeting to learn. I got to know and learn about that person and in that meeting, I got to learn about that person, I got to express appreciation for that person and I got to let them know I was there to support them. In 30 minutes, you can accomplish so much. Over several years, all of a sudden, I became a very, like well-appreciated supervisor. Because I simply took the time as we say in the DEI space, to close the proximity. Instead of being the supervisor over here (so far away in distance) now I'm the supervisor right here in support of you. You don't have to guess who I am. Right there. The proximity is closed and I'm right there to support you.

Katty: Close the proximity. I love that.

Desmond: Yes, supervisors need to close the proximity so that the people that are there being supervised by the other supervisees don't have to guess about the type of person they are.

Katty:Really showing up as authentic leaders themselves.

Desmond: Yes, if they are willing to do it. Some people don't like themselves. I work with hundreds of hundreds, thousands probably of leaders when you get down to it, who are very nervous, very insecure, and worried about how people are seeing them and their ability to lead. If I'm stuck in that space, how am I going to be anything for anyone else?

Katty: If one isn't open, if they can't close the proximity for themselves, it’s going to be hard to do it for somebody else.

Desmond: Beautifully stated. At the heart of most conflict is our internal struggles with ourselves. When we're treating people poorly, it’s simply a reflection of our self-worth.

Katty: It’s that baggage again.

Desmond: There we go. It's universal. Make no mistake, it's universal. We all carry things with us that we have to address, we have to acknowledge, and we have to love to work through them to heal. I spent many years as a therapist and the number one issue I saw was that people were so resistant to their imperfections. They were so resistant to the fact that they wanted to accomplish something and they couldn't. I spent quite a lot of time asking them can you love that part of yourself? Can we do that first? I think we can start making some grounds for changing the behaviors that you want to change.

Katty: Love that. That’s sometimes easier said than done.

Desmond: Katty, that's okay too. I have lifetime struggles that I'm currently dealing with that I'm trying to overcome. Things I'm trying to get better at and I struggle at those things all the time. Do you know what I call that? Being a human being. I am very human. They're just elements of my life that are very human and that I need to improve on and get better at, and things I need to love about myself that are hard to love and just going through that whole process.

Katty: Thank you for sharing that. So that was point one. Let's talk about that second pointer, humanizing or creating impact with that.

Desmond: I work with a lot of organizations and a lot of training has put us in this space. It's like, well, my intent is good. Let's just assume everyone has good intent. Let's just assume that we're all just, in the midst of our humanism, we all have good intent. Sometimes we're going to have conflict. I think that's a good place to start. But there's something we can do a little bit better, and that is having the courage, to understand how we're directly impacting the people who lead the Cowork in a positive and or negative way. I think that's the kicker. Do we have the courage to ask the right questions in a way, where we can get the answers we need to understand our impact? Because until we do, we're just kind of an ‘okay’ leader.

Katty: That is such an important point there. I was just talking about this the other day with someone about the interviewing process and how in some companies multiple rounds of interviews are necessary and multiple stakeholders are necessary to decide whether a candidate moving forward or not. The intent may be to include all stakeholders and that decision-making, but the impact on that candidate sometimes is either the company can't make a decision or they don't like me. They're not going to move forward with me. And we just don't sometimes recognize that our intent may be a bit intense, and the implication that it has to that person is a completely different one. Just having that awareness is so huge.

Desmond: It is and like I said, that's just one aspect and just look at how powerful it is. If I can just address that aspect, we can figure out a system to interview people in a way in which they feel that they're joining a meaningful work family, joining a group of people that are willing to support them, instead of running them through this gauntlet. You can interview me six, seven times, but each time if I feel more at home with the organization, I'm fine, but if you're interviewing me five or six times, and I'm feeling unseen, I'm feeling like I'm more or less going through a process instead of being a part of a process. It's going to create the consequences you're talking about. That's why when we talk about this humanization, how does a human feel going through six interviews?

Why don’t we ask them and understand their impact? Leaders are busy and sometimes they just feel they do what they think is right and they’re not asking impact questions. They're not figuring out the pros and cons. So they're just decent. Not great. Hopefully, they're good, but they're just decent leaders who are unaware of how they are impacting people. Or even worse, I really know I’m having a negative impact but I don't know what to do differently, so I'm just gonna keep an emotional distance from everyone, continue to do my job, and do it in a way where I can maintain my job and stay blind to the impact because if I dug deeper into it, it would come up in a way where I might need to change.

Desmond: The most liberating thing we can do in life is change. It’s okay to be different. I work in spaces where people are waiting for me to say or do something wrong. Many of us work in those spaces. If you're in the DEI space, the Inclusion and Belonging space, and it's become politicized, people are waiting for you to say something to validate their view or to be in opposition to their view.

In situations like that, I have to be willing to humanize that process and say, “Yeah, I did say that and that's not appropriate.” Or, “Hey, I didn't understand that.”

As we say at Arbinger, it's not about being right, it's about getting it right. I can be my most authentic if my mindset is if I make a mistake, I'll just work on getting it right. Some people are so hell-bent on being right, they can't move to that stage of getting it right which would greatly improve their capacity to lead others or to work with others.

Katty: That's powerful. That recognition itself is powerful, to come to that as a leader of an organization and as a manager of a team, and recognize just what you said, that DEI space is about belonging and to have not only the foresight, but the strength to step into this unknown, or maybe it's uncomfortable, but that's okay. Because growth comes from that and that's a good thing.

Desmond: I would add the DEI space is about office and work productivity. We neglect that part of it sometimes. It is about work productivity. Research has been out for a long time about how people perform when they feel a sense of belonging.

We have to stop putting this DEI thing in a separate space. This is one of the things I talk about in my ADT talk. If I'm a leader, DEI is over here, away from me and I'm just doing the training. I'm trying to do this inclusion training to make sure my organization is going to be productive, but I haven't included myself in inclusion work.

It's about the other folks, it's about the females, it's about the people of color, it's about people with different sexual orientations than I am. We're missing the main fact that it is about you, no matter what your background, orientation, or beliefs are. If we all are working on inclusion, instead of it being something these marginalized groups need in my organization, that's when it fails. It fails when I don't include myself in the inclusion process as a leader. And I'm somehow supporting and helping all these other groups, not recognizing that when I feel included in those groups and we’re all feeling included, then productivity is a direct result.

Katty: So powerful. It takes me to me. I'm an immigrant and I came here when I was in high school. In the middle of 9th grade, we immigrated to the States. I felt so excluded. I'm from Iran originally and this was in the middle of the hostage crisis. Probably not the best time, I felt, not the best time to be Iranian at that time, but I just felt very excluded. But I don't think anyone excluded me. I excluded myself because it felt like it was my protective layer of letting me exclude so that nobody says anything because that may hurt.

Desmond: There may be a twofold thing there, Katty. I'm going to protect myself because that's a lot easier than opening myself up to criticism and there's also the second part of it that could be I literally came from a different country where maybe society doesn't see it as a great place, and because of that, I might be susceptible to things that aren't nice. So it can be twofold, and that's the complexity of the work.

There are certain circumstances whereas an African American male, I'm probably a little overcautious. Like in how I engage people and how I communicate with people. I have bosses that are like, “Dezzy, you are way too agreeable.” I'm thinking in my mind like, do you guys want me to be disagreeable too? I don't. I don't want to come off as a disagreeable black guy that you work with. Agreeable works for me. Can you just let me let it work?

So there are parts of it that are grounded in my overprotection of myself, and parts of it are grounded in a lot of evidence that I've had throughout my life where people look at my skin color and treat me differently and make assumptions about me based upon that. It's that twofold nuance there and it's universal. You've had the experience that, I've had to experience that, and many people experience that in a lot of different spaces.

Katty: How do we ensure that in the workspace, in the hiring space, and in the recruiting space we can create this? We can close this proximity by using words where we can create a sense of belonging sooner than later. I think we recognize we need to do that but sometimes, it's too late and a candidate feels like they don't fit in. I'm leaving.

Desmond: That's a great question. Organizations need a common language. They need a common way to communicate. At Arbinger Institute, we try to provide people with that common language, but in like a worst-case scenario, you need everyone in the organization to understand this is our organization's definition of inclusion, belonging, diversity, and of equity. We need a common language so that we can take care of the people that we're bringing in.

The other part is we need to figure out where are our weak spots. Because most organizations are struggling internally with how they're treating each other. How can I expect the new people to come in and have a different experience? We need to work on the language. Focus on what's going on internally in our organization, and how we're currently treating each other, and then create a plan which humanizes the process across the board.

I know so many organizations, that want to create all these new processes for all the incoming people and the staff that are there, are like what? Do they get a $1000 bonus for getting hired? I understand the need to get people in the door, but I'm telling you, like, you need to humanize. The process get the common language is to figure out how to take care of people internally, then create a plan that involves the incoming people as well as the internal people in this process of belonging.

Katty: Because otherwise, you'll be creating separation.

Desmond: That's one of the common issues we have when organizations are trying to implement DEI work, it's not inclusive. They're trying to diversify but it's not inclusive and it's not creating levels of belonging that they would like. A lot of organizations like “What we do now?” Get a common language, take care of your people internally, make sure they're supported, and whatever you do over the next few years to create a strong inclusion and belonging system, do it across the board. I tell people, everything that they do should be able to be implemented across the board. If you can't do it across the board, you need to reflect upon it and see what your purpose is.

For example, there are a lot of groups and organizations like LGBTQ+, and Indigenous American groups. We have a lot of different groups and they're great if they're inclusive. If there is just a group for just people to talk amongst themselves about what's working and not working, then all it creates are silos. it's not inclusive. All the groups should be welcoming. All the groups should be sponsored in a way that they're providing education and support to everyone in the organization. I think from the recruitment and the new hires, doing things in a way where people are humanized across the board in the organization will get you a lot further than just focusing on the new hires who then come in, because then there are people who haven't gotten what they've gotten that are now having to train them. It's a lot of meaningful conflict.

One thing is to the middle managers and most organizations, I say that the C-Suite tries to define the culture. The middle managers and first-line supervisors are running with it. What I've learned is that we're neglecting first-line supervisors and middle-level managers. We're neglecting them and putting them in a situation where they get negative both ways. They're getting negative from all the problems they've got to deal with, with their staff, they're dealing with all the problems they have to deal with from the administrators about them, and they're just caught in the middle making two or three dollars more an hour than their staff, thinking what the hell is this, right?

What I've learned is that focusing on the trainers of these new hires, the first-line supervisors of these new hires, making sure they're cared for, they're trained in a way where they can be supportive, is everything. One of the most common things I see is “Hey Desmond, this is great training, but my first-line supervisor is still treating me like crap.” If we're not empowering our first-line supervisors, and caring for our first-line supervisors, then we're going to see ongoing issues with incoming staff.

Katty: What I'm hearing, Desmond is once we create that plan, it needs to be operationalized across everything. It can't be my twist on how we're going to be doing it. This is how we're doing it across the board at all levels. We all have to step into it. We all have to believe it. We all have to accept it otherwise, probably from a core value standpoint, it’s a mismatch anyway, right? It's probably not the right job for me. Someone who's not willing to embrace it.

Katty: You know, Katty, you're on point. I'd add one more word, modeling. You have to model. The strongest implementation of work is modeling. I tell people all the time and they think I'm weird, but it's just truthful. I say ever since I went to preschool, my parents have taught me. how to be safe as a black male in America. Be careful how you behave. Be careful how people respond to you. If you feel you're in danger, walk away. If there's an issue, do this. If someone comes to you in the middle of the night, call us. In my day, it was a pay phone. Get to a pay phone and call us. My whole life since I was in preschool, I've been trained to behave or act in certain ways to make sure my environment is safe; safe as I can control. I received my Ph.D. starting at the age of 4, 1/2 to now, of understanding people. Understanding the energy they bring, understanding the safety they bring or lack thereof. Understanding their frustrations and anger. I am just focused on the nuances of the people I work with, for good or bad. So when you come to me with this great, do I project right or this great initiative that we're going to do? And I'm using my skills. I'm 49 now. I'm using my 45 years' worth of skill to evaluate you as a person. I'm going to have a pretty clear, clean sense of whether you're genuine or not about the work you're going to do. Or whether this is just one more thing that you've been obligated to do as my supervisor

Katty: Checkbox, right?

Desmond: Yeah. I'm not alone in this. I'm not the only one in society that has been trained for safety to pick up on the nuances of others. I know women who will tell me at least you can walk around at night. It’s like I've talked to women who said, Oh my goodness, like that has been my experience, Ever since I've grown up, I've been very sensitive for my safety. So people know when people are thinking, they know when things matter to them. A lot of times we have these leaders that are going through the motions of the work. People know. Just before they even open their mouths, whether it's something authentic, or whether it's something you're just going to do the motions on. That's one of the reasons the DEI processes often fail.

Katty: Tell me about the process you guys have at Arbinger and please share a little bit about Arbinger and what it is that you do and how you go into organizations to create impact.

Desmond: We are an organizational change organization. We work on mindset change. One of our mottos is we like to humanize the workplace. We go into organizations through consulting and training, and we help create a common language. We call it the outward mindset, our ability to see people as people, or our ability to see people as objects. In the process of creating this language, we have multiple curriculums: outward performance, outward leadership, and outward inclusion, are just 3 trainings we have to help humanize the process, whether it's in performance, whether it's in leadership, or whether it's in inclusion work to humanize the process in a way in which people have a sense of our authenticity.

In a way in which people feel seen and they respond based upon it. We have multiple frameworks built around this understanding that humanizing another person, that's our quickest way to create resolution. In most of our most complicated circumstances and situation.

Katty: Amazing. I'll be providing your contact information and Arbinger if anyone wants to reach out to you and needs that support to bring that into their organization. But if they wanted to do it on their own, if they were so passionate about creating a sense of community and belonging and just being heard and being present, how did they go about it themselves? What's the first thing you talked about? A common language, but maybe that's beyond them, right? Maybe that's an organizational thing. Be just within their team, what can they do?

Desmond: There are a few basics, you can start by reading. We have a couple of best seller books. One is called “Leadership and Self-Deception.” It's on Amazon, one of the best sellers on organizational behavior work. And one book is called “Anatomy of Peace.” It's probably one of the number one or #2 conflict resolution books on Amazon. Then a third book we have is called “Outward Mindset”. So those are good foundational books that you can start to read. You can read them as a team and then start to get some of that language together. We also have public workshops. You can go to www.arbinger.com. There are public workshops you can sign up for there as well to take a deeper dive into some of the things I'm talking about. We have a bunch of different mechanisms like I said, from the options of just grabbing one of those books, to signing up for a public workshop. We have a bunch of options that we offer as an organization.

Katty: It seems that as long as someone is open to having those half-hour meetings that you were having with your team, which sounds like with existing and new people. We just really need to open up the door for bringing our full person to work, our full self to work. Just really look at people as if they are who they are, they're human beings. They're not the admin. They're not the tech guy. They're not the designer. They're human beings. A human is being there with challenges, struggles, aspirations, all of that and we need to see that.

Desmond: Yes, and I will throw one more nugget out there for your podcast to reflect upon. When I don't see the humanity of another person, then I spent a lot of time justifying why they're not human or not as human as I am. When I stay in that justification, I form bonds of anguish and frustration with those individuals.

When we're asking you to see people as people, we're not asking you to just only see the good side of people or take a Mother Teresa approach to life where you're giving everything of yourself. What we're asking for you to do by seeing another person's humanity, is breaking free of the bonds of anguish that are associated with seeing them as an object. We're asking for emotional and cognitive freedom. When you see the humanity of another person, it's a much better place to start.

When you're looking at the challenges and conflicts of your life, if you start with objectification, it's always going to be much more difficult to resolve something than when you start with an analogy, another personality. And like I said, someone may say, well, That's what somebody is saying. I can feel it. But I'm telling you, we all struggle with this, and it's just a dilemma that we got to limit and learn to face while doing our work, doing busy work, and accomplishing the tasks that we need to do at work.

Katty: That's probably it. We're so busy running around in ten different directions that it feels like if I take a pause back, and connect with you, I don't have time for that so can you do whatever you need to do?

Desmond: Right. Katty, you're on point. We don't see it as a part of a long-term solution. Taking that 15 to 20 minutes to understand a person more deeply, to help that person to solve their concerns, were more likely to get the accountability that we seek. In objectification that's associated with correction and it goes back to the whole impact piece. Then I may not realize that my intent may be just to get it done quickly, but the impact that I'm leaving with you as well, you can't do it yourself. So let me do it for you. Yeah, that's a whole conversation there too.

Desmond: Beautifully stated.

Katty: Thank you so much for taking the time and talking about what it means to be inclusive, and what it means to create a space of belonging in a in a work organization. But really we're talking about beyond that, we're talking about just in any interaction between any two people. That's talking about.

Desmond: I've learned a quote recently that was like “when you interact with people, we want to leave them better than when the came.” The goal in life is to leave a person better off with the experience you've had with them then when they first interacted with you. I've made my mistakes and had my struggles in life for sure to accomplish that, but I think being much more aware that that's a process for me has been very helpful to recognize that each person is a person. One of my goals in life is to improve my impact on that person.

Katty: Thank you for sharing that message with everyone. If we all could do that, it would be a beautiful world. Well, thank you so much again. As we wrap up this conversation, I will share the books that you mentioned. I know you've authored some of them, “The Anatomy of Peace.” Incredibly impactful. I got a chance to get that when we were at a ATD. I want to thank you for taking the time to being here with us and talking about this really, really incredibly important conversation. Not just because we need to check a box, but because we all need to see each other as the humans that we are.

Desmond: Yes, and I will add, I didn't author the book, the Arbinger Institute as a whole did, but, thank you. You'll find the books and Amazon at the Arbinger Institute. They listed there as an institution.

Thank you, Katty. I appreciate your time. Thank you for the invitation. Thank you for being the type of human being that's willing to lean into conversations that I think create solutions where we often don't see solutions. Some people see this space as a dilemma that we have to overcome or try to figure out, but there are a lot of solutions and inclusion in this space. Thank you for inviting me to be a part of your podcast.

Katty: It's been a pleasure talking to you, Desmond. Thank you.

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Suzan Oslin

https://www.linkedin.com/in/suzan-oslin/

concreteoasis.city

Suzan is an independent XR creator with a focus on persistent, geo-spatially located AR. She uses immersive technology to build aspirational futures that reflect her own wonder and awe for the beauty of life–at the same time revealing ugly truths that endanger our very existence. Using her mastery of experience design, she crafts interactions intended to engender empathy and motivate positive action.

Katty

Where are you? It's beautiful where you're sitting.

Suzan

I’m at the AR House here in Los Angeles, and it's a co-working, co-living space run by Aidan Wolf and Lucas Rizzotto. Every month, they bring in ten new artists, where we live and collaborate together for four weeks. And it's in a beautiful house in the hills of Hollywood. We have a pool and a sauna and we invite people in from the public to be a part of the community and it's just a really amazing place for artists and creators to be inspired, build relationships, and build cool stuff.

Katty

What a beautiful idea for collaboration. All AR projects?

Suzan

Not necessarily but it's pretty much AR/VR as far as I know. Some artists come in and they're not necessarily developers, they're designers or illustrators, but they're pretty passionate about the AR/VR space, and they'll work usually with one of the devs to build stuff.

Katty

Okay, let's step backwards just in case there are some people in the audience who may not be familiar with AR/VR. Can you just give us a quick little rundown of augmented reality/ virtual reality and then we'll start with how you got started in this.

Suzan

There's sometimes a lot of confusion about that. Virtual reality is when you're completely immersed within a digital or virtual world, and that's usually through a headset, and there's no relationship to the outside world at all. You're completely in a created and fabricated world.

Augmented reality is when you are in the real world and your real world is being augmented by digital or virtual objects. So it's a layer over top of the real world, and usually that's done with your phone, or augmented reality glasses. There used to be a distinction of mixed reality. Mixed reality and augmented reality are kind of coming together into one thing and people talk less about mixed reality. I think it pretty much put it all together with augmented reality.

Katty

And how does that play into where your career started from, which is in the UX space and what was the trajectory for you and the transition for you from traditional UX into what you're doing now?

Suzan

Well, my career actually didn't start in UX. So when you and I met, my UX career was starting. I actually have a background in visual effects and animation and I've worked in the film industry for a number of years, so the 3D world is not a stranger to me. I had been doing UX for about 12 years.

I don't think I wrote a single line of code in that whole time and my background is very much in technical art. To be honest, I was getting a little bit bored with user experience design and wasn't challenged in the way that technology really challenges you. I was in a space where I was looking for my next evolution of my career. That's when I started to see, around 2018, and I started to see a lot of posts on LinkedIn and whatnot about augmented reality and virtual reality. It was more virtual reality at that time. To me, it seems like a no brainer to kind of go back to my roots, but also bring with me, my user experience design and hope to make an impact in terms of a new technology and bring in those concepts of user experience design. So often when a new technology is being created, a lot of the applications and experiences are created by the developers. And I know it makes sense because they're the ones figuring out the technology. So those are the ones that get built first and so I really wanted to have a presence of user experience in this burgeoning industry.

Katty

To have both technology background, the design background, and the visual effects background in that space. I imagine the three of them together really play off of each other to help create the alternative universes that we're working on. How does Metaverse play into this?

Suzan

There's a lot of debate in the industry about what exactly the Metaverse means. I just try to stay away from it. I think many of us do. I can tell you what the Metaverse means to me. Most of my work now is really in the augmented reality space and specifically in city-scale augmented reality because my vision for the future is where the digital and the physical worlds really come together and are one and that we can have digital content in context.

So that's why I'm really interested in physically located location-based augmented reality. Because it's like being in context, I think is where it's really going to make a lot of meaning and have impact. But I also believe, and I’ve believed for a long time that virtual reality and augmented reality will really come together as just being one spectrum of the other, of the same thing. So I can imagine, being in a space and putting on a pair of glasses and completely removing the light and going into a virtual reality space. There's a lot of, in terms of co-presence, having virtual people in your space, sit down next to a virtual being. Sit down next to you, so there's, that kind of mix of virtual and augmented reality. So, that's my idea and Metaverse is really the bringing together and combining the virtual, digital virtual, and physical worlds. But also having those spaces that are purely virtual and having it all connect and be interoperable and not be separate spaces. You know, similar to how the web is now, you can go anywhere on the web. That's how I see the Metaverse. It's really just an evolution of the web in 3D. In real space 3D in our world, not 3D on the screen, but in our present.

Katty

You know where my mind went as you were just explaining that… this is gonna sound maybe strange, but this is the space that I've been in lately because of the book that I wrote, The Butterfly Years, which is my journey through grief. As you were talking about being there, the memory that came out for me was can I have a conversation with my loved ones?

Suzan

That have past?

Katty

Yeah. Like they're physically there.

Suzan

In a way, yes. My father passed away shortly after I got into this industry and it was always very sad for me because the technology is there now where we can do a volume capture, a 3D capture of a person and pretty much create a hologram like you see in Star Wars in real life and how I wish I had had an opportunity to capture my father before his passing.

In very rudimentary ways, that is possible and they've even been talking about this yesterday. They've even brought back to life people that have passed on and recreated their figure in 3D just through photographs, and you know, I'm sure quite a bit of 3D modeling clean up. It's pretty exciting some of the technology that's being developed in terms of presence. I think really the thing that people are after right now is creating that co-presence with people that are actually here. You have someone in Bulgaria and you're in the United States and bringing that likeness through holography into your actual space, where you can sit across from each other and have a conversation and you're digital in their world and they’re digital in your world but you physically have that connection.

Katty

I've been fortunate to be at a conference where the speaker, from my very elementary vocabulary, had been beamed into that space and the facilitator and the guests were having this conversation and the facilitator was there in person, but the guest was a hologram. And it was fascinating to be in that space. And this is several years ago, so I'm sure that technology has just exponentially grown from there. But even there, it was so fascinating to be able to hear someone and it was just different than to watch a YouTube video of them. They were there, but they weren't, but they were so it was just really fascinating for them to be there and be able to answer your questions. Live, if you will.

Suzan

Yeah, because you get their whole presence and all their mannerisms.

Katty

When you describe what you do to people, how do you go about it to the layman audience when you tell them what it is you do, how do you how do you tell them? Do you say I'm more of a creative do you say I'm more of a technologist, what do you say?

Susan

I use the term creative technologist now. When I first moved into and got interested in virtual reality and augmented reality, my goal was to work as a consultant as a UX expert, but I really got interested in making things and becoming a creator. So I see myself more as an experience creator and experience director, using the technology to create experiences out in the real world. I don't know how I describe myself! But for the longest time when I was a UX designer, people would ask me what I did, like my family or someone that really doesn't have a lot of understanding of the technology industry, I would just say I was a web designer and it was close enough, but I can't really say that anymore. Sometimes, I just say I'm a designer. But if I'm talking to someone who understands the technology I say, I'm an XR creator, creative technologist.

Katty

I would imagine. Some people don't even understand what it is that I do, even though to me it's just such an easy thing. But anyway, where does inspiration come from for you? Is it in the real world, is it in the digital world, how do you get inspired?

Suzan

I would say it's the internal world. Just taking time to be quiet and allow inspiration to come to me. I would say it's like divinely inspired. That's where the predominant inspiration comes from.

Katty

Is there a practice for you.. do you meditate on it?

Suzan

Well I don't meditate on it, but I do have a regular daily meditation practice and I do yoga, so I definitely take quiet time for myself. I believe that myself and everyone, had been brought here with unique talent and gifts and to become quiet, I think we're pushed in that direction and we're driven to whatever that is.

But it requires getting quiet, to really listen, to know what that is. And so that's really my inspiration. That's my primary inspiration and outside I think I've always been very involved in communities. All the way back when I was in marketing, I’ve always been a part of the community and I think that's really important to know what other people are doing and know what people are doing locally. I'm very involved in the AWE, the Augmented World Expo, which has been around for I think 12 years now. I think it was the first and continues to be the biggest Expo for this technology. And I myself and my partner, Ray Mosco have been co-producing AWE Nights LA for our fourth year now. So the local chapter for AWE. I worked for many years at the LA User Experience meetup doing programs and participating. I did a mentorship program for about 4 years in Downtown Los Angeles, where once a month, designers would come in and just show their work and they had an opportunity to get feedback from whoever was there and that was really rewarding.

Katty

Thank you for that. That's always been something that I've really admired about you. Is this drive to give back to the community. I do remember you are very, very active in the user experience meetup space, always posting, always welcoming me and inviting me to the events that you were having, and just even given what you're doing now and where you are now. The AR house just really speaks volumes about the impact of community and the impact of collaboration and how powerful that can be. It also takes me to mentorship and whether we mentor or are mentored, how important that opportunity is to be able to give constructive feedback, to be able to help someone along on their path. So hats off to you. Ever since I've known you, you've been doing that. I’m sure the creative community thanks you. I'm sure you've influenced a lot of people.

Katty

But speaking of mentoring and giving feedback, it's hard to sometimes give constructive feedback and receive constructive feedback. Is there anything that you can share with people who maybe are earlier on in their careers and listening to this and getting excited about trying something new? Maybe you can share about your lessons learned? As you've grown on your path and the type of feedback that you've received or you've given.

Suzan

Some organizations do have a culture where open communication and feedback is welcomed, but I think many more don't have that. I don't think it's very much a part of our culture in the United States. I can't say about other cultures. I think we would all be better off if it was more a part of our culture. I think that when someone offers you feedback, it's really a gift. I think most of the time it's intended to help you and help you to grow and help you to get better or help you to evolve. I think it's really great when people are willing to give me honest feedback, because then I can get better. When people are reluctant to give honest feedback, then you can't grow.

Katty

It's difficult to receive it sometimes though, especially with art and creatives. Sometimes, it maybe difficult to separate the person and the piece. When giving feedback on resumes and when giving feedback on portfolios, sometimes the way it's received… somebody's identity is so tied into that piece versus we're trying to give feedback as to like, this is beautiful. It's just not what this particular client is looking for because of XY and Z. And I can see how difficult sometimes that is for somebody to hear, especially early in their path when maybe they're second guessing themselves.

Suzan

I kind of feel like the distinction that is really important is that when you're doing a piece of art, if we can make a distinction between art and design is when you're doing a piece of art. You're really expressing yourself, right and it's whatever it is, and someone else's criticism, maybe doesn't really matter. Maybe you have an art teacher who's trying to develop your technique, or whatever.

But it's very different when you are getting hired as a designer. You're being hired to solve a problem. You're not being hired to express your innermost creativity. It's great when those two things can intersect, but more often than not, they may not. And so you really have to stay focused on what's the problem that you're trying to solve? Who's the audience, what are their needs, what are their goals, whether that's the client or the end consumer? It's really important that you stay focused on who your audience is and what are the needs of them. And I think then maybe that helps a little bit. So it's not about you. It's not about you. It's not about your vision. It's really about solving a problem.

Katty

Right, being able to extract yourself from the middle of it. Great insights. Thank you for that. And for you personally, how do you evolve? How do you continually learn and grow? What keeps you curious all the time?

Suzan

I don't know that anything keeps me curious, I just am curious. That's why my career is always evolving into something new. I like that constant learning, building, and growing. It's part of what I love about my career and so I think the one thing people in technology have is that passion to learn more and be curious. I think that's just part of my makeup.

I remember when I was doing the mentorship downtown in Los Angeles, and a lot of people would come wanting to switch into UX design from graphic design. We had psychology majors from school wanting to know how to get into UX design or people from all different things. I think that what I've always done is when I become curious about something, I start to explore it. Some people might have a plan where they're going to do this in that amount of time but I just kind of start exploring and go to the community and get involved with the community and doors start to open and I find my way. When I started in XR, and XR is a term that combines VR and AR for listeners that may not know, so when I started my journey in XR, I was going to plan to be a consultant as a UX designer, and ended up getting interested really in creating.

Katty

Love that. You talked about community again, and I'd love to just hear from you as you're looking to hire people or you're looking for other collaborators. What is it that you look for? What's important to you? Is it skills, is it fit? Is it vision? What specifically draws you?

Suzan

It's definitely skills. It's important to have the skills to be able to get the job done. But aside from that, what's really important to me is how they are as a communicator. Are they able to have conversations openly about their work and receive feedback? Are they good about letting me know what their schedule is or scheduled shifts so I can count on the delivery? So I'd say a second to skill is really communication is so important in any career.

Katty

At every stage from the interview stage, all the way through.

Suzan

Even how you present yourself online is a form of communication.

Katty

Absolutely. 100% and I think a lot of people forget and they certainly forget that with social media. A lot of hiring managers do have an opportunity to evaluate and get a peek into communication styles and/or skills and so forth. I mean our portfolios, our LinkedIn profiles, all of that is an extension of who we are right now. What is it that you now know, as a creative technologist, or as just someone who's been in this field for many years and has seen your career morph and evolve to where it is today, what is it that you wished you had known when you first started in your path?

Katty

Okay, think about that we’ll come back to that before we wrap up. I’d love to, again, take you back to the earlier days. Lessons learned along the way?

Suzan

I think my lessons learned are don't take things personally.. Even though I think many creatives tend to take things personally. Never assume you know why a choice was made in your favor or to your disfavor. There's always 100 things going on that don't have anything to do with you. I've learned over the years not to personalize things, because that can be very constricting, and I think damaging to self confidence. That's something I've definitely learned along the way. It's something that I see other people, especially younger people struggle with. So that's the big one. I think the other thing is that there's not a finite number of opportunities. There's really an infinite number of opportunities and to believe in the possibilities of your dreams coming true and to follow those dreams wherever they take you. And there's always going to be an opportunity at the right place and the right time.

Katty

Beautiful. Well you can see I have “dwell in possibilities” on my wall so I’m a big fan of just seeing what else is out there and if there isn’t, really this opportunity that we've always had but it’s probably been amplified even more now because of COVID, this opportunity to just create possibilities. To venture out to do what it is that one wants to do if a traditional 9-5 job isn’t it, that opportunity, especially in the freelance space, that we’re in. We’ve always known that this exists… this opportunity for entrepreneurship… and creating our possibilities is a beautiful thing.

Suzan

Yeah, now is a good time for that. COVID had some positive impacts. I think our work-life was definitely one of them, at least for technologists and creatives, the ability to work from home and opening up so much more opportunities for freelance has been really great.

Katty

How was that overall impact for you? You’ve always worked from home, have you not?

Suzan

No, I haven’t always worked from home. Twice in my career I was a solopreneur. Earlier in my career when I first met you and more recently. But when I was in UX design I was, for the most part working at companies.

That’s interesting. When COVID hit it wasn’t all that different for me because at the time, I was working from home. But, that’s not entirely true because I think the intensity of being forced to be at home and the lack of human contact, and having my kids home everyday from school.. it was challenging. We live in a small house so it was really challenging and I’ve always been very much of an introvert and not really good at when I go to events. I tend to go late and leave early so I don’t have to do a lot of the networking, even though that’s the reason I go. It’s a little bit challenging for me to really put myself out there on a one-on-one basis when networking.

After COVID, the first party that I went to I was walking up to people and saying hi and introducing myself and it was completely natural because there was such a hunger for human connection. For me, that was a really positive impact, because I have a much easier time networking. In fact, that’s how I met the people here who run the AR House, and that’s how I got here.

It was the first party I had been to since COVID a few months back and I had recognized Lucas Rizzotto because I see a lot of his work online and I just walked up to him and said I love your work, I follow your work. We got to talking and he introduced me to his business partner, Aidan and I was talking about my project downtown in Pershing Square, which is a location-based AR project. Coincidentally that month, they were being sponsored by Niantic, and Niantic is in the process of putting out there location-based technology visual positioning system. So he said “hey, you should come by and hang out when Niantic is here and get to know the cohort. I did, and then the next month, I applied to come and live here.

Katty

I love how that kind of came back full circle for you back into being with community. Are you able to talk a little bit about your Pershing Square project?

Suzan

Absolutely, it’s my personal project so there is no NDA. Early on I got involved with the Open Air Cloud which is a Non-profit organization that promotes open and interoperable standards for the Metaverse, the air cloud, whatever we want to call it.

I had been working with them for some time and when their technology got mature enough to build something with, I decided I wanted to make a location-based something. For whatever reason I picked Pershing Square and I brought on a design partner, Laura Garcia, to collaborate with and she did some research. I wanted to do something that was impactful, socially impactful and meaningful so we threw around a bunch of different ideas and we ended up deciding on water conservation.

Pershing Square has a history around the fountain and the design right now. The fountain is now dry, but the design was created to represent the water that is diverted to other places to Los Angeles, so it already had this history around water. We decided to do a project around water conservation and it’s coming along very slowly. I had a small development team come together for the AWE AR Cloud challenge back in November. We won the challenge and I’ve continued to develop the design. I am now in the stage where I am applying for funding. I’ve applied for three grants now… My first time doing grant applications. Hopefully, one of them says yes. The goal of the project was to do something that was impactful and also that I believed could get funded. So a lot of thought has gone into this exhibit that will be throughout Pershing Square that educates people about the water ecosystem in LA. The fact that we get our water from all these different places. The seriousness of this drought, I know we’re going to fill it this Summer.

I know June 1st there’s legislation happening where we’re going to start getting restricted on our water usage and there is discussion on if we stop watering outside, and all the trees died what a huge environmental disaster that would be and how difficult that would be to recreate that. We’re not in a very good place around water. The exhibit is intended to raise that awareness and also engage people in interactions, where we have the opportunity to interact with content that is more engaging and more immersive and hopefully drive behavior change.

We’ve put a lot of thought into how we would measure that and create partnerships with local businesses and municipalities to help us measure and bring the whole community together around the issue.

Katty

Beautiful, I got goosebumps. Beautiful, congratulations.

Suzan

Thank you. Well, congratulate me when I actually get the money to build it.

Katty

The first step is to have the idea and the concept and putting it to a true social impact, environmental impact cause so, you are there. I do remember in Pershing Square, there is even like a sculpture the represents the aqueduct if I’m not mistaken.

Suzan

Yeah, it’s like a big purple wall and that's where the water used to come down the purple wall into the fountain and it doesn’t do that anymore.

Katty

The symbolism doesn't escape me that even that’s dry.

Suzan

We’re going to put water back there. People will create an oasis by engaging in these water-saving activities. Then we’ll have the plants grow and the more people that contribute, the more beautiful that the oasis is.

Katty

Is there a way for the public to help support? Is there a GoFundMe if a listener here hears it and say I’m interested?

Suzan

That is not set up yet, but I do have a website, it’s still a bit of a work in progress but my contact information at least is there and it’s concreteoasis.city.

Katty

We’ll put that in the show notes. Where else besides Concrete Oasis can people find you? Are you available for projects? Are you available for new opportunities? How could people find you and reach out to you?

Suzan

The best way to find me is on LinkedIn, that’s where I’m the most active. So it’s Suzan Oslin. I’m also on Twitter.

Suzan, thank you so much for being here and really educating us on this amazing new space that you're forging into and taking us along with you.

View Details

Daniel Sieberg

Co-Founder, Chief Content Officer: GoodTrust Director, Innovation Marketing, Moody's Author: The Digital Diet (2011); Digital Legacy (2020, w/ Rikard Steiber) https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielsieberg/

Katty

Welcome to the artisan podcast as we welcome Daniel Seiberg as our next guest. Daniel is the Co-founder and Chief Content Officer of Good Trust and the Director of Innovation Marketing at Moody’s. But above all, Daniel is a storyteller. Throughout his career he has told stories of brands and stories of people as a journalist, as an author, as an entrepreneur. He has traveled to over 70 countries and has worked in marketing, communications, product, and partnerships at many well known companies including Google as well as many news outlets. I’m so excited to have Daniel here so that we can talk about storytelling and how that impacts interviewing and how we can show up as our authentic selves, not only to an interview but any role that we start. So, with that, let’s welcome Daniel.

Daniel

Hi, Katty. It’s wonderful to be with you and dwell in possibilities as the sign over your shoulder reads and talk about storytelling. Probably one of my favorite subjects.

Katty

Yeah, thank you. I was fascinated when we had met a few weeks ago just to talk about the concept of storytelling and wanted to bring that to the audience here. Obviously, the audience who listens here are all storytellers… whether they're visual storytellers, or writers, or marketers. But this concept of storytelling is so important, and as we are recording this, the gardeners have come. So for the audience, just giving you a little warning if you're hearing noise, it’s out of my control.

Daniel

This is all part of our story right now.

Katty

This is the story of working from home.

Daniel

Yes, exactly.

Katty

It is what it is.

Daniel

Yep, life in 2022.

Katty

Yep, we will speak loudly to overcome that. So, Daniel, how did you get started on this path? Let’s go there first.

Daniel

Yeah, absolutely and I will keep my origin story relatively tight. I would just say that my father spent his career as an engineering electronics technician working with oceanographers who went to the North Pole to study climate change. So I was exposed to the “how does anything work” kinds of questions from an early age. My family believes in service and my sister is a nurse practitioner. So that's a little bit of my orientation in the world.

And then coupled with that, my maternal grandmother died of complications from Alzheimer's and I can distinctly remember what it was like to see her at her 75th birthday party, and as an awkward 14-year-old walk up to her with a present and for her to say, “Oh, this is lovely, dear, thank you, and who are you?” And for the two of us to sort of die in front of each other in that moment. So what struck me is the value of our stories and how we pass them on. How we convey them. They're sort of the storytelling or how we do that. There’s the tools that we use to tell those stories, there's the subject matter, that people, and everything wrapped up in what it means to tell a story and of course to listen, to receive, or to watch. So that, I think, is what ultimately pushed me into a career of being a journalist. In my case, it was science and technology. I did a master's degree in journalism with a focus of technology at The University of British Columbia…. a long time ago.

The arc of my career went through working at CNN, covering those subjects including space and environment, and on to CBS News, and ABC and then I pivoted away from being a practicing journalist, if you will, to focusing on technology and I would say helping others use technology to tell stories. So I spent several years at Google and helped to create a couple of teams in service of empowering newsrooms to use technology to tell stories in new ways with data through different tools, training journalists, helping to identify new markets and thinking about success metrics and a lot of stuff that newsrooms are thinking about back then integrating that into their workflow.

And then left all of that about four and a half years ago and went into entrepreneurship. I continued to stay close to the idea of storytelling and I co-founded a blockchain startup at one point. I've been an advisor to many startups, started my own company that was about an immersive kind of AR augmented reality, virtual reality kind of an experience to communicate with people and hear stories of the past. A couple of years ago, I connected with a former fellow Googler who I didn't know and we embarked on this journey of co-writing a book together. And in parallel, building a company called Good Trust, which is all about this idea of digital legacy. So now that we have the first book I wrote was called Digital Diet, which was all about living with technology. And now here we are ten years later, and we're all sort of dying with it in sort of a morbid way. But this is the way that we've evolved through technology and how it captures our stories. And so, this is where I find myself, somewhere at that intersection of technology, storytelling, and all of us mere humans.

Katty

It speaks to me and it resonates with me, because I wrote a book about grief and that whole journey through loss and certainly, memories and stories of our loved ones are particularly near and dear to my heart. And making sure that we're preserving them and being able to share that legacy. But you bring up a digital legacy, and that's pretty interesting. And I think what I gathered from what I learned from that you had shared with me about your book, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's really kind of just being mindful and being aware of the digital legacy and the footprint that we're leaving behind. Right?

Daniel

Exactly, and I mean, to the degree to which if we look back or up into our family tree, if you will, and the creative output that became the sum total of someone's identity. So for example, we hope, maybe we're not all of us, many of us have an Ancestry or My Heritage profile, right? Particularly as we age, we start to think about how to capture all of that with just one or two generations earlier.

Maybe the artifacts that we have with those people are a postcard or to a letter, a handful of photos. You know, if the person lives into the 60s and 70s, maybe there's some video, but it's in a format is hard to share and hard to preserve. But now as we get into the 2000s, 2010s, 2020s, the output of each of us has grown exponentially that reflection of who we are. We create 10x of what we have on somebody's ancestry profile every day in our email, the photos that are found and you know, the accounts we have and social media posts and on and on. And if somebody had access to all of that, you know if I could see what my grandfather actually created or thought or did or said.

I would personally be fascinated by it. Now for somebody else to come across that maybe that starts to feel a little creepy, or there are privacy issues and ethics and all the rest of it. But I do think that awareness, part of it that you referenced, is something that we've thought a lot about with Good Trust, because if somebody passes away whether you're in your immediate family, or even a friend and you don't know that they have, you know, a Facebook, a LinkedIn, still have a MySpace, like all these places where they've got all this stuff, that's sort of an early challenge. And then on another level, is there some crypto somewhere that you don't know about? Is there a retirement account that somebody forgot to tell you about its password? And all of a sudden there were these pragmatic reasons to be aware of all of this too. So there's like the emotional and the pragmatic side to know all this.

Katty

And for sure, and I imagine now with creatives, and NFTs, that's a whole nother piece to keep track of.

Daniel

Exactly. You know, we've tried to create ways for people to do that through something we've called a digital vault, with kind of this notion that you can assign a trusted contact to help you to do this on your behalf after you pass away or to help somebody who is already a family of somebody who's already passed away to take care of all of this, because the reality is that the average person spends about, the exact number is, six hours and fifty-two minutes a day online. I think through the pandemic, that's probably gone up. Let's just say, most of your waking hours during the day are spent somehow connected to the internet.

How much of that time you actually are creating something you want to save and remember and pass on to people? Maybe it's like 10 to 20%, but still on a daily basis, that's a lot. I mean, just today, you know, if I go back to get those notifications of a memory and remember back on this day, right? And those are photos and like I do not want those photos to get lost. These are photos and it doesn't even have to be some huge occasion when anniversary or birthday. Sometimes it's those every day, I'm using air quotes for people who can't see us because “every day” moments where you know, your kids do something and you want to remember. When you were building a tree fort, and you know, those are the kinds of photos you want to pass on to people. So how to identify those, how do you pass them on in a way that feels tangible to someone else to do something on your behalf? This is really what we're talking about with digital legacy. It's the story of you, just in a digital capacity.

Daniel

And who gets to see it and who gets to access it. And these days, we have some AI ways to think about this. For example, you can animate a photo through our site where you can sort of bring it to life, if you will. So if you have a picture for let's say, you know, from 60 or 70 years ago, you can animate it in a way that the person now has some expressions and nice to feel like so you can kind of capture their essence a little bit more and share all of that.

There are other companies, there's one called HereAfter that allows you to have a conversation with somebody who has passed away. If you ask them some questions, so for example, if I asked you a series of 100 questions about your life, what Hereafter will do is take that data or you can do it on your own behalf and create a conversational AI experience so that you could learn about your history and you know, even after the person passed away, you have these memories and you can use your smartphone device. You know, be with the family and ask them questions. There's a video one called StoryFile, which you can do with video you can do as an app on your phone and it's now sort of talking to you, you know. And it could be somebody who's already passed away. They did this at the Illinois Holocaust Museum and at a certain point with Holocaust survivors, you could ask them questions. So this is the direction that we're going with the stories. They are being created in a digital way, preserved in a digital way, and now sort of passed on in this digital way.

Katty

Yeah, I was talking to someone yesterday actually on another podcast about augmented reality, And how cool would it be if we could create something where a hologram of a person passed could be a conversation that we're having.

Daniel

Absolutely. And, you know, today it's possible in a limited way for people who either have the money or the means to do that. So for example, Kanye West gave his wife at the time Kim Kardashian, a hologram of her deceased father, Robert Kardashian for her birthday and she could actually see it and interact with it and he was sort of speaking to her you know, if you will from the afterlife. There's an example of a mother in Korea, who her daughter had died at a young age seven or eight, horribly tragic event as tragic as anybody could imagine. And what this company offered her was a virtual reality experience to interact with her daughter. They created kind of a digital version of her daughter, and then the mom got to sort of say hi, and kind of, you know, bring her back to life if you will. The mom was so emotional and watching it is difficult, and there's some part of you that, or at least for me, that's conflicted, or you think, is this what she should be doing to deal with her grief or not. On the other hand, this is how she feels she wanted to do it. And maybe it's cathartic in some ways for her to experience all of this in that way. So,fascinating discussions about all that.

Katty

Yeah, for sure. I could talk to you about this for a long time, but for this podcast lets bring it back to creatives. And actually I think mostly sharing just in terms of the story we're telling about ourselves online. That's an important piece and we always on the recruitment side of our business, we're always talking to candidates about, what does your online presence depict? Is there a through line between what you say you want to do and how you've created your LinkedIn profile, for example. And then you have all these other assets that you're creating. So what could you share with us in terms of our online story? When it comes to branding, our personal brand and how that represents online? Is there something that we can tie that back into what is my story as a candidate, what's my story as a job seeker?

Daniel

Here's what I would say. First of all, for me personally, I'm going to call myself a digital immigrant insofar as you know, I didn't grow up with the Internet. And, you know, it became part of my life at a certain point. But for of course, a whole other generation that we're talking about, you know, millennials Gen Z, this is just what they know. And so their life is captured in this digital way from the beginning, if you will, right? Their parents are sharing photos of them and then they have a digital presence. So they have a digital self from day one to think about.

And I think what I wish I could tell my younger self was be authentic you in every case, whether it's something you're talking about in a broader public context, like social media, or something you're sharing a little more privately or whatever it is, just be the authentic you. Kind of imagine that somebody could either look over your shoulder or look at your account or see what you were posting, just be the same person, accept who you are. I've gotten better at doing as I’ve aged, I wish I sort of figured all this out much younger,because I think what can happen is that social media of course triggers our ego, this sense of projecting, and, you know, I think pulls out a lot of our insecurities. We may not be that person in our entirety.

When I worked at Google, we used to say that social media was a reflection of of someone's ego and search was more of your id, what are you really thinking? Right? So if you could see what people search history is versus what they posted on Facebook could be quite different. Right? And I think that prospective employers can now start to sense that if not detected you know, whether it's within your resume, does that line up with what you're saying you did or how you conduct yourself, all of those kinds of sensitivities to think about.

I think that the earlier on in your life that you can just be that one person no matter what the medium is. Just have that reflected out into the world. I just feel like the more confident you'll be, the more successful you'll be. But this is again, I wish I could tell my younger self all this in this sort of sense. It's easier to say than to do.

Katty

Yeah. Why do you think storytelling is so important? Why stories?

Daniel

You know, somebody told me once that there are six words that if you say that it's anybody, they will trigger a part of the brain and their words are, “let me tell you a story.” And there's something that's universal about stories and the way that it captures our attention, and our engagement and our curiosity. Some of the best sort of human traits are fired up when we know there's a story coming. What can we learn? What does this mean? What happened? Tell me more, right? And I think for anybody who has kids, when you stop reading this story, like halfway through they’re like no, no, no, no…. you have to keep going. And it's kind of wonderful in a way to see that because but it does require, it asks of us to be this listener and somebody who is paying attention, if you will. And I think that, to me, stories are the way that knowledge is passed on, yes, but perhaps more importantly, experience and wisdom.

For a time I had this idea of a product that was like a wisdom engine. These days, we think about the search for knowledge and understanding the facts and all of that, but what about all this tremendous wisdom that we all possess and how do we find that from other people? We can read about it and books and learn philosophy and all that. It used to be that we would sign up as human beings in a philosophy house that was what we sort of ascribed to a particular philosophy and that was our way of looking at the world, and we were a stoic and that's kind of what we thought and we talked about that and discussed it with people. These days of course, there's some of that with faith or with religion, but philosophically, I feel like stories contain so much of that philosophy and so much we can learn from them. And they manifest in different ways, movie, TV show, a commercial, an ad can be a little bit of a story, a website, an email.

I just think that they are universal and there's a finite number of universal truths that appear in an infinite number of stories. It's when people would say there are really only 16 original stories in the world and they're a million different ways to tell the same story throughout history, but I think it's one of the best ways for people to learn, and to capture something that feels fundamentally important as human beings. We started by trying to tell people things through cave drawings…look, just pay attention to this thing. I don't know how to, speak your language or get you to listen to me, but I'm going to draw it here and just look at this thing, right?

And now people are scrolling through TikTok, and we start to lose people's attention spans.

This is my great concern with stories. Is that they're going to be lost, because people can't pay attention for more than a few seconds. When I watch films now, I'm like, can we hold a shot for longer than two seconds before we have to go to the next thing and the next thing. Let's read the person's expression, let's sit for a second in this moment. I get that the world's moving at a faster pace, and I don't want to be the fuddy duddy who's like can we go back to fax machines and slow things down? I'm on the cutting edge, I like being out on the frontier,but there's something about a linear understanding of something that requires the story to capture people's attention and to learn. And if you weren't able to do that or don't have that opportunity, I feel like we're losing something as a species as a society. I'll get off my soapbox now.

Katty

I agree because I think stories pull you in. As you said, “let me tell you a story”, and that naturally just makes people lean in and ask, ”what's coming next?” Question for you, kind of going back to candidates and interviewing. How can one tell their story in a short way? Are there any tips in terms of how a candidate in an interview can just authentically show who they are whether it's through their resume or in the interview process that is concise? They can't start the interview with like, let me tell you a story. But you know, a traditional question is like, “tell me about yourself?” “How did you get started?” So are there any recommendations that you can leave our audience with in terms of how to be able to weave their story into the facts of what it is that they do?

Daniel

I love when people can tell a story. I'm going to see if I can just wrap this in the right way but like, a humbly confident manner. So in other words, they're aware, they're self aware enough in their place in their own story, such that they can tell it in a sort of an articulate way. They can describe what they learned, maybe throughout their life and in their career. But they're not saying it in a way that's sort of like well, “I've figured it all out and just like everybody out of my way, obviously you should hire me!” It's more of a journey and kind of giving you a sense of how they got here. And I love being pulled into those stories and people talking about you know, I I went through this health scare, but I what I discovered about myself was this, and then I went on to create this thing, and I thought I had figured it all out but then this happened, and then I joined up with this person and we built this thing. I love hearing those stories. I remember when I was in journalism, early journalism classes, I had a writing professor who said, anytime you write a biography about somebody, you've got to include a nose picker. Like a something about the person that isn't this lofty, they were this great, whatever, right? We all have our nose pickers about ourselves. Nobody's a perfect person.

I think when we go into an interview, the sense is to project, I'm perfect, not only am I perfect, but I'm perfect for the job, and clearly you should hire me and let's get to it. Sometimes I think younger people are unsure of where the balance is, they don't want to seem like they're not confident, on the other hand, if you're overconfident people tend to sort of lean back a little bit. They're like, alright, well, sorry the room isn't big enough for your ego. So I think there's some amount that needs to come into how you convey yourself and just admit that you have your own failings, right? We all have our nose picker kind of things that we can highlight.

The classic kind of thing when people say “what's a negative attribute you would say about yourself?” The one that people have been told not to say it's like, I'm too much of a perfectionist. I just wanted to write “Oh, are you Oh, you're too much of a perfectionist?” Versus If someone were to ask me what is my nose picker? I would say I've done lots of different personality tests, so it's sort of a scary and exciting to kind of learn these things about yourself. But I feel like one of the things for me that can be a nose picker is that I consider myself a leader with passion, somebody who wants to move forward as solutions oriented. “Hey, everybody, like let's go this way. We'll figure it out. Like come on, like how can you do this? Great, awesome idea. Let's do it.” Right? And then the flip side of that, in terms of the optics of it is that it can be seen a little too intense. So people are like, Okay, well Daniel, slow down and let's pause for a minute and talk about all this and do more measures. So, I can get caught up in my head overthinking that too. So I love when I can observe somebody else who's great at all of this, this kind of being humbly confident or whoever you sort of think about it, and observing them and saying like, I want to be like that. That's how I want to be getting out of my own way sometimes because I think also I can be able to be Canadian.I’m from Canada originally I feel like I'm an honorary New Yorker after 16 years, but I can be a little too Canadian and think, I need to defer to others or not be as you know, little forthright in what I think are my opinions.

And Canadian are terrible at apologizing all the time and wanting to be liked because we're just just like America's hat, up there and you know, “Gosh, darn it, I hope people will think we're all right in the world.” And, so rather than being this kind of like bold, American I know it's we can do this and, might so often they're in there like just wrestling way and I tried to smooth those waters to some degree and be a little more of like the calm like the duck, with the feet under the water paddling and I’m just the duck. I don’t wanna say Swan, I don’t quite put myself in that category.

Katty

But they’re paddling really, really fast!

Daniel

They are paddling really fast. There's definitely that side of me, beneath the surface. But I know people don't like to see that because it makes them anxious.

Katty

Yeah, exactly. That's so funny. It brings it back to authenticity, right like if you're in that interview, and you can't show up as who you are then.

Daniel

Yeah. And if for whatever reason, it doesn't work out and oh my gosh, we've all had those moments. Then you sort of say okay, just wasn't meant to be. And I think that this is something else I've needed to learn over the course of my career is that the more you can be your authentic self and live in the moment and whatever's going on and accept that you know, there will be an outcome from that. It may not be exactly what you'd imagine. If it isn't, then okay, but maybe sort of no expectations, I think is another thing. I think we all sometimes put high expectations and put it on ourselves or in a situation where we want to stay and we push ourselves and that can come across too or it's like just wow, okay, whoa…iit goes back to the intensity. And so I think I've needed to regulate that and modulate that in some ways. And just, you know, a little bit the, you know, Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers has asked children to, or ask parents to say to their children, I love you just the way you are.

And I think if you can do that with yourself in a little bit of a self affirming sort of way, which I know that this can all sound a little too out there for some people, but if you can have these kinds of conversations with yourself, and really like who you are, and when you go into a job interview, or to have a discussion with somebody, allow that authentic self to come out. Ideally, it connects with that person. And if it doesn't, then it wasn't meant to be and rather than sort of regretting it, or trying to force it, think okay, on to the next. See that there's always another adventure or opportunity out there.

Katty

Yeah, good point. If we don't show up as our authentic self, and we put on airs during the interview, certainly, that's something that when we show up to the job, day after day, day after day, it has to be our authentic self. There's no way that we would want to or even can hold up a pretense. It's just not going to work. It's not going to be the right job.

Daniel

Exactly, it's not and that's when you drift into, I don't know if people have read Catcher in the Rye recently but you start to become Holden Caufield and you just feel like a phony, and I have had jobs where I felt like phony, because I sort of got my way in the door, if you will and then by the end, then a month or two months later, you know, it started to feel awful. And then it just goes down. And it's really hard to recover from that. And so, rather than trying to come up with this fake story.

When I interviewed younger people now I would rather they told me that they don't have a ton of experience, but they really want to learn, or that they haven't done this thing yet, but they did this thing and here's what they discovered.

At Google, when we would hire people, and I was involved in a lot of different interviews and hiring people at Google. I think you could actually get a badge internally, I think, mine got up to 75 or whatever it was six years. So anyway, enough people that I loved just that experience. And there were different quadrants to assess as people would come in: role related knowledge and, what was their experience and just all this stuff, and Googliness was one that people still probably have a hard time kind of figuring out. The one that to me that was most important was categorized as GCA, so general cognitive ability. The way that was expressed to me was not is the person smart or not, or what was the SAT… that doesn't matter. It's could that person, if you brought them in under one particular job description, and let's say that product went away, for whatever reason, sunsetted, wasn't renewed or funded again..could that person be moved over to a completely different job, different team, different product and perform and excel in that environment, because they have that general cognitive ability to adapt to a whole different thing? If the answer is yes, that you think that that person scores high there, that to me was the most valuable aspect of evaluating somebody. Because that's what we're all asked to do, is to adapt, be solutions oriented, have the growth mindset, all of these attributes we look for people. When I came across somebody who I felt possessed that, and there are people who I hired at Google who are still there, and I love seeing the arc of their career, and in my head, I'm like, I knew that they would be that person. I'm like, I told you, Google people, I don't work there anymore. You know what I mean, I'm in the background cheering them on, because I think this is exactly what companies need,are these people who can who have that neuroplasticity, and growth mindset and can adapt because companies change even big companies that think they're never going to change?

Katty

Yeah, one of our core values at Artisan is agility of thought and action, because at least in the 27 years we've had Artisan our clients have changed drastically from exacto knives and paste up boards to where we are today. And they will probably continue changing and evolving like we were just talking about AR and VR and where the world is going. So, agility fits into GCA, general cognitive abilities. I’ll ask you this as a final question, did you have a favorite interview question that you always asked? I always hear Google questions are pretty unique but what was your favorite question to ask?

Daniel

I know some of the Google questions, I’m mean, there are even like sites dedicated to like trend questions. And for a long time they were like, the question is, like, why is a manhole cover round, you know just these kinds of random things, right. I don't know, because the equipment anyway, people would obsess over these things, right?

I gave a talk about this recently about failure, and what it means to fail and I always loved hearing people share their stories of failure. And to me, if people have that failure story, they know what that failure moment was and they can identify it and they can express it and talk about it in a way that you can see that they've clearly evolved through it and taken what they can from it.

I read recently about the concept of failure compost that even though you may have failed, the project, failed idea whatever it was, you can sort of take some of that and turn it into fertilizer for your next project.

Katty

Yeah, like that.

Daniel

I'm gonna give full credit to the Google X team. It was part of a moonshot email, but they were describing this whole concept of failure compost. I just think there's something wonderfully sort of like a virtuous cycle of, of life almost in a way because people can put so much of themselves into something that fails and if, if you can go through that and see how it refined you, and then come out the other side, and remember to not identify yourself as a failure, and to be able to say, Yes, I failed,but here's what I learned and I'm ready for the next thing.

I mean, you know, someone like Michael Jordan is famous for his success, of course. But one of his quotes that I think people love to follow up on is the number of times he missed shots, was was given the ball at the last second to win the game and missed and he says, you know, I failed over and over and over again, and that's why I succeeded. It's such a powerful way to think about success.

I mean, there's a tremendous book by Srikumar Rao, who is at Columbia Business School Professor has this whole framework around how to approach your life and business and really the book is called Are you ready to succeed? And to me the flip of that, of course, is in your head like, are you ready to fail? No, I don't want to fail. But so how do you kind of think about that and cope with it and, and ideally thrive out of those kinds of situations. So anyway, that was my favorite question,and I always loved hearing about it. There's never any judgment. I mean, it's not. So I just loved having those conversations with people.

Katty

Well, it brings us back to being authentic. Right? You can not be authentic if you've never failed before, because we all have at some point, we've all fallen down and then gotten up, dusted ourselves off and said, Oh, right now what now? Where do I go?

Daniel

I think it gets to a path of trust much faster. Especially in an interview or when you're meeting somebody for the first time, if you can acknowledge that place. Because you know that to me is what helps to build and broker trust is, and ideally when you get the job, and you go through that together, and you fail, you succeed, that brings people together. It's like connective tissue being in the trenches you’re figuring it out together. But if you can kind of get that in the early moments with somebody and kind of understand it and be a bit vulnerable. I just think they're on a great path.

Katty

Beautiful, beautiful words, and I think a great lesson, just the authenticity. I see it so much when we interview hundreds of candidates in a given time period and I cannot tell you how many people have told me, that when I've asked them so what happened at the previous job? Why did you leave? Like hardly anyone's ever says that I was fired. And then you do a reference check and it comes back but they were fired. We'll just say it just, just say and share why and not have these surprises in the little box that’s going pop up like a little Jack in the Box.

So this goes back to what you were saying just being authentic. What's the lesson learned, what happened, what were the circumstances, what did you do, what did you not do, and what have you learned from that?

Daniel

Exactly. Well, I think the gardeners must have stopped to listen in on our conversation or something.

Katty

Yeah, it’s nice and quite. They’re done. They were buzzing away at the height of our conversation so I’ll listen and see what they said but you know what.. we’re being authentic here, so.

Daniel

We persevered through it.

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Dr. Heidi Hanna is a best-selling author of 7 books, is an authority on stress mastery and brain-based health and performance.

https://heidihanna.com/

https://heidihanna.com/stress-toolkit/

https://www.linkedin.com/learning/managing-stress-for-positive-change

Very nice to have you here. And you and I have worked together several times through the Entrepreneurs Organization and I was on your podcast for stress mastery. I would just really love to have a conversation about stress and specifically as it pertains to creativity since the audience that we are speaking to is primarily on the creative side, both writers as well as designers and marketers.

Let's talk about stress. But let’s before that talk about how did you fall into this field?

Heidi: Well, I'll give you the shorter version of the story. So we don't take up all of our time. But I really struggled with stress from an early age, so much so that I ended up fainting and losing consciousness and went to a lot of different doctors. This is around the age of 11 to 12 years old, went to a bunch of doctors, they couldn't figure out what was going on. I was diagnosed with a lot of different confusing things.

But ultimately, at the end of the day, they said it's probably just stress. And so that word meant a lot to me at a very early age and I couldn't understand it. Of course, my parents did the best they could to try to teach me how to cope with that. But it's just something we're not really taught. We're not really taught what stress is or how to cope effectively with it. I think we're talking about it more now. But it still seems like it's this big, bad beast that's out there that we're fighting against. Instead of the way I like to look at it ,it's a relationship we have with the circumstances of our lives, based on our demand versus capacity.

And so it can be physical, emotional, mental, spiritual, or social. Creative people certainly have a lot of unique challenges in the stress space, which I know we'll talk a little bit more about. And a lot of us who are creative are also highly sensitive to stress. So we can get moved by stress in either direction, positively or negatively. And I think that that was me even though I didn't see myself as a creative person as a child. I was very influenced by the emotion and the energy around me. And so stress became really kind of debilitating in some ways and led me down this path to understand it. So I studied nutrition, exercise, physiology, psychology, neuroscience, everything to kind of come to a better understanding of what's actually happening when we say that we're feeling stressed.

Katty: What is actually happening?

Heidi: I do think that the first thing again, to keep in mind is that it's a relationship that each of us has, and so it's very much based on a perception of this gap between demand and capacity. So if we believe that we have the resources that we need to cope with those demands, then we have a very different stress reaction pattern that's more like acute stress.

So if there's actually an emergency and we have to do something, we have the production of adrenaline. We have that kind of fight or flight feeling, but that's for a short period of time. That's only if something's about 30 minutes or less. If we experienced more chronic stress or we don't think that we have the resources to deal with what's being asked of us, then it moves into more of a chronic state, primarily fueled by cortisol, which is a more long-term survival hormone. And this is where we start seeing immune function go down, brain function go down, memory attention and we see the more toxic side of the stress reaction pattern which estimates are that stress like that is responsible for about 75 to 90% of medical visits.

So we know that stress has this toxic side. But I would also remind us all that if we didn't care about something, we wouldn't feel stressed. So stress can also be an indication of what really matters to us. And I think that's where as a creative person, I personally think everyone's creative and everyone has that in them. But if we're trying to tap into that creative side of who we are, that stress can really be like, GPS for where we're off. Where we need to course correct some things that we're working on or even when we just need to recharge our own battery and stop trying to force out of a capacity that might be lower than then would be ideal. So

Katty: There's been so many triggers for so many people. And there are so many I think tools that you talk about and that you have on your site, whether it be meditation, whether it be exercise. Rules that anyone can embrace and really run with to help manage their stress. Can you talk a little bit about some of the best practices that you've seen out there for people to bring themselves back to a place of de-stress? Would that be the right word?

Heidi: Well, I think it's the balance. It's that being more feeling more in control, not even control because we're not ever really in control, feeling more capable will feeling like you have more resources.

So there's two things to look at if we're looking at stress as what happens in the gap between demand and capacity as you can either decrease the demand on your system or you can increase your capacity. So you can look at the different types of practices similarly, with you know, what is it doing? Am I decreasing all the stuff on my to-do list or am I increasing my own capacity to get those things done by changing my environment or changing my energy by going for a walk or spending time outside? Certainly listening to music and meditation.

I find that most people know the types of things to do, but it's really the story we tell ourselves about making them a priority. Are you proactively building your own capacity so that when you hit the demand, you're more able to cope?

And then do you have some of these techniques reactively in the moment when you find yourself feeling stressed, it really takes both, so that's why this idea of stress mastery is not eliminating stress but being more able to use stress as fuel for positive change. In order to do that, we have to again have that capacity. So thinking proactively, having a morning ritual that you do every day that helps you to really anchor into what's most important to you is probably one of the most important things.

And I know for me and maybe people listening, I do morning pages from The Artists Way. Whether I'm being creative or not, that's just something that really helps me, but I also listen to a meditation, I also try to get a daily walk or two or three depending on the stress I'm feeling.

But that morning ritual and then also before bed an evening ritual that helps us to prepare the brain to be able to sleep and I know a lot of creative people their brains are so active and especially if you've got stress hormones, fueling your energy throughout the day you feel tired and wired at the same time.

At night, it can be hard to fall asleep or stay asleep. So having a proactive routine that you do again, same types of things, music meditation, taking a warm bath, going for a walk, petting your cat…All those types of things start to give us a good bookend for when we're starting and stopping our day. And then just super important to prioritize breaks during the day, recharge breaks I call them to replenish your capacity and to go back to where we started.

I still think it's less about the techniques you use and more about the story you tell yourself that makes it a priority so that you're not either just over-scheduling yourself or getting stuck with a creative block, but actually oscillating.

Because everything about the human system, including our energy and our creativity is supposed to oscillate. We're gonna have times where we're really productive and times where we have to recharge. But especially in today's world, we're not very good at the downtime, you know, that nourishment time, and I will say coming out of COVID-19 that we're now starting to see in the research less of an impact of what we would typically call stress symptoms, but we're seeing a massive increase, like 90%, almost in post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms which means that most people are starting to get the sense that the stress part is over or getting more manageable, but the reaction to that is a little bit more long-term. So more fatigue, more brain fog, that kind of exhaustion that a lot of people are feeling. It's hard to get creative juices going when you're feeling really fatigued.

Katty:: So well said. Where I agree with you initially in preparation for this conversation. As I was thinking for myself, as I was actually planning my morning. My morning was completely out of whack, as I just came back from vacation and suddenly check emails and so on and so forth. I'm glad that we're not talking about you know, eliminating stress because that's not gonna happen. It's really diminishing that time between the demand and the capacities and what we're talking about and how can we refuel that capacity over and over again by various techniques to give us the power, if you will, to be able to deal with a capacity that comes at us.

This morning, as I was getting ready for us here and also just getting through all the emails that were waiting for me, what I realized, which is counter to how I usually do my day, realized that you know, I didn't have anything organized, I had everything saved to my brain as opposed to on my to-do list. Even though I started my morning with a walk and then a meditation, and then I turned on my emails and like everything just went out the door. Right?

So I'd love to kind of talk about multitasking and this false narrative, speaking of stories, we tell ourselves. This false narrative that at least I know I tell myself that I can juggle it up all without really an organized method to move forward with everything that I need to do as multitasking exists.

Heidi: Well, so we know the brain can't actually multitask. We love to think that it can and this conversation actually came up last week when I was doing a training co-facilitating with your husband and we were talking about multitasking and somebody said, Well, my wife says that she can do it really well. And I said well, that's great.

Women are more hard-wired to so-called multitask, what we're really doing is switching tasks back and forth. So yes, we think we can do something better, but it's actually really harmful, so it's not something to brag about, that we're constantly switching because there is a cost with that there's a time and energy and even a stress reaction cost.

If we are trying to force the brain to focus on multiple things in a short period of time. That is a signal to the brain that there's an emergency because that wouldn't be a good way of doing things if you are in a calm capable state. So it just doesn't make sense to the brain otherwise to do that. So stress hormones are going to increase which is going to cause some inflammation, things you're not necessarily going to feel in the moment, but you're going to feel more tired or you're going to feel more wired as a result of doing that and I would encourage people to just try it for a day. Just try really being single task focused even if you have to cut the time to like 15 minutes on this and then this and then this, being intentional about it and notice if you feel differently, by the end of the day. If you find yourself more able to actually relax.

You have to do it for a couple of days before you really notice it but when you have a lot of screens going, for example, it is definitely more exhausting, but it's also causing that stimulation to increase. So sometimes people feel better multitasking, it's almost like doing a drug that makes you feel better because it's stimulating in the moment, but long-term has this negative consequence to it.

And because we're talking about creativity, I mean creativity is something where we really need more depth of focus. We actually may not even need as much time but we need to be able to go a little bit deeper with our processing and with putting connections together in new ways. And so you know, if we think about it that way, think about the energy you bring to the time that you have not just how many things can I get done in a shorter period of time? That really changes everything and I know for me, that was a huge shift because I didn't see myself as creative to finally say, the way that I work I probably get more done in four hours than most people do in eight or nine because the intensity is so high, but there's also a huge demand in that. So in order to do that, I probably have four hours of just brain fitness time in my day where I'm just recharging or eating healthy food or getting time outside. So it's just making the adjustment less multitasking and more single-task focus knowing you're going deeper. The deeper you go with your energy the more you actually have to recharge your own battery to get yourself into that balance.

Katty: I love that, brain fitness. Unfortunately, physical fitness is something that I think most people think about when we're talking about fitness, but mental health as a whole and just brain fitness, that is definitely not something that is an everyday vocabulary for many, myself included. I have to be intentional about sitting down and saying okay, now it's time for my meditation or it's time for my walk. It's not something that just naturally happens.

Heidi: Yeah, it is a different way of thinking about it. I guess for me, I just keep kind of going back to this idea that our energy is our most valuable resource. It's the energy we bring to the time that we have and the brain is the master conductor of our energy. So from our perspective and our mindsets, which can dramatically change through training and it's not training that it always has to be work. Again keeping in mind that sometimes it's actually just being still, which is super hard when we all feel like we have to be productive all the time.

One of my favorite things to do is just to lay on the floor with my arms just sprawled out and just feel gravity supporting me like just that feeling of grounding. And there's a lot of different ways that people can practice that as well, is so important just to continue to kind of get ourselves back to that place that we really want to be to be our best selves. I think we've just been kind of taught that it's all about time management, being productive, and working all the time and you're lazy if you're not putting out great content 24/7. You know, it's just it's not sustainable.

Katty: Yeah, and certainly talking about creativity, we need inspiration, right? That's not gonna come from just staring at the screen 24 hours either. So whether it's the walks that you were talking about or good nutrition, something to take us away from being locked into this square here or rectangle here and have to be on all the time.

Heidi: I think most people will say that they have their best ideas in the shower, or while they're on a walk. For me. I tried to get a massage every week. And that for me is my most creative time. I used to actually take a notebook in with me because that's where I wrote a lot of my books was getting a massage because as the body relaxes, and the mind relaxes all these ideas start coming together. Now I'm at the point I don't do that anymore. I just say hey, if it's meant to be it'll still be there when I’m done because I want to just enjoy it. Took some practice to get there. But I think that's another example of being proactive. Everyone's different as to what's going to recharge their battery but if you invest in yourself, you know, Julia Cameron talks about the artist date, which to me is just kind of, you know, what do you do for yourself where you can just play and be creative with no output, no outcome needed? We just don't do that very much anymore. We feel selfish if we do that. And it's to me it's just as much an investment in your business as anything else that you do.

Katty: Yes, we feel guilty when we step away or when we take that time for ourselves and not necessarily on the deliverables at hand. Although we'll make the deliverables a lot richer when we have that time. It's so funny that you've referenced a couple of times to yourself as not being creative and I think you've written four or five books?

Heidi: Seven now.

Katty: Seven books! And you're constantly creating coursework, you're creating meditations for others, you're creating online content that you're teaching others so you're constantly actually in the state of creating. Yeah, it's funny that, you know, we don't like ourselves that way.

Heidi: It is funny to me and that's one of the reasons I mean, I read The Artists Way now several times, but even when it's like the artists’ date. I'm like, “Well, I'm not an artist.” So I'll just call it creativity. I think as a child, I probably actually would have called myself creative. I mean, I was singing and acting and doing photography. So obviously I have that in me. But I think someone along the path convinced me that I wasn't and I know so many people struggle with that. So I love this. I love the whole conversation. In fact, I mentioned to you that I'm posting a creativity retreat at Canyon Ranch with a colleague of mine who teaches a course on creativity at Harvard. So that's gonna be really fun to explore, and I look forward to getting just as much out of it as I do being able to lead some of those conversations because I think we are all creative. I just think we have some creativity wounds that need to be healed.

Katty: Yeah, there's definitely an opportunity to be able to tap into that. Because you know, we we've had this conversation before I'd never thought of myself as a creative. I always call myself a creative groupie, that the artists that we represent and the marketers and they're the writers that work with Artisan Creative. I've always been so fascinated and enamored with their portfolios and the work that they do. And when somebody asks me, “Well, are you a creative yourself?” I'm like, “Oh, no, no, no, I'm not. I'm on the business side of it and I'm a groupie.” But I've come to terms with the fact that I too, authored a book that took forever to do. But I have and now I'm working on this journal that's going to be coming out. So I'm happy to step into this space and say that you know, what inspiration and creativity was there. I just didn't know how to get into it. And finally, I've learned how to do that.

Heidi: Yeah, that's beautiful. And now you're helping other people do that too, with that podcast and other things that you're doing, which is great.

Katty: Thank you. I appreciate that. I would love to talk about a little bit more about just stress mastery, not necessarily management, stress mastery, and see if there are a few tips that we can leave for the audience, especially with the holidays coming or working from home like all of those things. Can we talk about two or three things that on a regular basis people can embrace with mastering this thing we call stress?

Heidi: Yeah, I have a stress mastery formula, and it's super simple, and it's just a good thing, I think to keep in mind when we're having that experience. And you don't necessarily have to do all three of them. But if you can move through these three really simple steps, I think that's where we find the lesson and what stress is trying to teach us.

The three steps are: Assess, Appreciate, and Adjust. So the first thing is to assess and it's not doing a full assessment or anything but to actually ask yourself what you're feeling. Because stress really isn't a feeling. There's usually a feeling associated with stress, but if we can uncover that like, “Are you tired? Are you sad, scared, vulnerable? What emotion is actually coming up in you that you're labeling as stress?”

Because if you say to me, I'm feeling stressed. I don't know what that means. Right? That's really the energy that you're feeling. Maybe anxiety, tension, whatever, but what's really under the surface? And if you can look under the surface a little bit, I'd also ask, what value is being threatened? And this is something that really I started doing last year when I was just so overwhelmed and I was trying to do presentations, and I just could barely get out of bed. And I started thinking about this what value is being threatened? Why is this happening? And I realized it's the value of doing good work, but it was also the value of people's time. If I'm doing a presentation and people are coming. I want them to get something out of it. And I would get myself so worked up about that, that it would totally hijack me. So when I asked myself what am I feeling? Am I feeling vulnerable, or am I feeling scared or whatever it is, and it's because I really want to create value for these people.

Then we go to the next step of appreciation, which is appreciating that something's important to us, appreciating ourselves for having that value, appreciating what we do have to offer so it's a shift from something that's negative and depleting to something that's now more positive. I actually appreciate that I care so much that I'm concerned and now I can work with that. So it's no longer hijacking me. Now I break the circuit.

And I lean into that and say, okay, so if I really care, what's one adjustment that I can make right now when would the smallest thing that would have the best impact? So do I need a new slide? Or do I need to just go for a walk? What adjustment is going to actually help me feel that I can create more value? So now I'm not focused on the problem of stress? I'm focused on creating value and then the adjustment is just something small, it can be problem-focused. The problem is my slides are terrible. So I'm just gonna do one new slide and that's it. Or it could be emotion-focused, which is that I just need to feel better. I need to do some aromatherapy or talk with a friend or watch a funny video or something like that.

So assess, appreciate, adjust is the simple way to kind of think through that. Assess what's really going on, what value is being threatened, appreciate yourself and the resources that you have to bring which is going to lift your energy, give you more capacity, and then make a small adjustment. And just no matter how small it could be walk around the block one time once you get started, your energy is a little bit better. You have a whole new perspective on the situation.

Katty: I love that. Thank you. Thank you. I think I'm gonna put those words on my vision board here, so I can look at them every day.

Heidi: A lot of times we don't assess, but we tend to just adjust. So what can I fix, tell me what to fix? And I think we really miss the blessing of stress, which is that it's trying to teach us something. So that's where I think we just need to slow down for a second and figure out what's going on and why it's there and appreciate ourselves in that. Because when we shift from a stress state to a gratitude or appreciation state we changed like over 1000 chemical mechanisms in our brain and body that move us to you know, be able to be creative. And then a lot of ways whether you're creative or not, this is what we're trying to move people to problem-solve more effectively. So now they see more possibilities, more choices, and more opportunities in the experience than they would if they were just shut down.

Katty: It's interesting that you used the wording of the blessing of stress, really kind of utilizing stress as that beacon if you will, to kind of figure out what is going on.

Heidi: Yeah, one of my favorite things that I kind of go back to is that stressing is a blessing when we know how to use it for good. So if you think about the most challenging things in your life, oftentimes there when we grow the most, where relationships you know, people show up for us the most. I know you talked about that in your book and those types of things. So I do think that the experience of stress is trying to help us. It only hurts us when we kind of push it down or push it away. We avoid it or ignore it. That's where it becomes toxic and that's where it can build up. But if we can lean into it a little bit more. That's where the growth happens. So post-traumatic stress growth instead of disorder. It's possible.

Katty: Yeah, exactly. I think, just to be able to have some tools not to freeze in the face of stress.

Heidi: Right. And those things breathing, meditation, music, I always say you know proactively practice those so that reactively in the moment, you can go back to it. I have what I call a brain recharge process, which is to just breathe, feel a positive emotion and then focus on how you want to show up. And that can be something people can practice, practice, practice so that in the moment if you're feeling triggered and you need to circuit break the stress, you can move into that quickly. Other things like a certain song or a certain aromatherapy blend, or techniques like that, a certain place that you go to. I have a specific meditation person, I listen to you and as soon as I hear his voice, I'm in that space, it's just practice, practice, practice. So that when you're in the moment and you need something, you can go to it and you can circuit very quickly.

Katty: It’s interesting too, you said aromatherapy. I have little vials of lavender or different kinds of scents in my pockets, in my purse, especially on the plane. I'd love to put it on but scents are such a positive trigger for me. And I know that people think of triggers as bad always. I don't think so I think how we react to them. Marshall Goldsmith, quoting him, “Triggers neither good or bad. It's our reaction our behaviors towards it determine whether they're good or not.”

So scents are a great positive trigger for me, and when I find myself stressed, I didn't realize that I was assessing, but now it makes sense when I get really stressed and try to figure out like, Am I really hungry? If I wasn't hungry, would whatever occurred have impacted me as much or am I really tired if somebody had said the same thing to me when I've had eight hours of sleep, versus if I only had four hours of sleep would my reaction still be the same? And it never is. I can deal with it much better, so that goes back to what you were saying before is replenishing the capacity.

Heidi: Yeah, and in that way stress is kind of like the gaslight going off in our car. We wouldn't smash the gaslight and try to make it go away we go get gas. So in a lot of ways, the stress could be that we haven't eaten or we haven't had enough water, we haven't had enough sunlight or whatever it is. It's just giving us a message.

Katty: Or when it's too hot. I just can't deal with it when it's too hot. So that stresses me out. But air conditioning comes in handy for that. What are you working on these days yourself? What's what's keeping the creative juices flowing for you? You said the Canyon Ranch event is something you're getting ready for?

Heidi: Yes. And I'm in an interesting season right now. There's been obviously a lot of change for everyone. In addition to that, I've had some pretty severe losses in my life during COVID. So there's just been a lot of adjustment and I think I'm in a season of cocooning. Which is an interesting space to be in and I'm trying to trust that, where I am noticing a lot more fatigue and trying to be still more and listen more. I'm doing a lot of writing but just for the sake of journaling and expressing myself. I actually have to kind of force myself to not create content because I've been doing that for so long. So it's really interesting.

So I think in some ways trying to find the creativity in the stillness, and being patient and trusting enough that it will come back. I think that's a scary place to be and I'm sure I'm not alone. In seasons of life where it's like, life is just kind of saying to be still in trust and have faith and not always easy to do. So that's where I'm at, and I'm kind of just keeping it open-minded for what's ahead in the future. And I'm super grateful that I have four courses on LinkedIn Learning where my content can exist and I don't have to keep creating it so people are getting a chance to experience it there. And my hope is that coming out of all of this, it'll be really clear how I can best serve next, certainly paying a lot of attention to mental health in organizations and this kind of post COVID once we get there, fatigue that a lot of people are going to be dealing with as we try to be adaptable for what's ahead.

Katty: Thank you for saying that. In our day-to-day work, we encounter so many people who've lost their jobs, in this previous year and have not yet been able to secure something even though there are so many open jobs for whatever reason that connection just hasn't happened for them. And in speaking to them that stressful energy or that energy that exudes sometimes is of desperation or just giving up because no one's responding to their resume or no one's picking up the phone. And so I think it's just wise words to just sit with it for a moment and even think about it like it's what I've been doing all these years. Is it still something that I want to continue doing and if not, are there other opportunities for me to brush up on my current skills or add new ones so that I can be in a new season.

Heidi: I've been thinking a lot and speaking a little bit about possibility thinking that like when things are uncertain, just trying to allow ourselves to think about the positive possibilities. It's just really difficult. Uncertainty is one of the most difficult things that we experience as humans. The brain will just kind of go bonkers. We don't like uncertainty. So we tend to prefer misery that we know versus uncertainty that could be really wonderful on the other side of it. So I think that practice as well as just thinking about every moment there's a possibility for a new beginning a new chapter. Yeah, I love that. Dwell in possibilities. I love that and kind of soaking in that too. And just being in that for a little bit, I think is a beautiful experience to have.

Katty: Yeah, this is one of my favorite quotes. Emily Dickinson and you just never know what's around the corner, what the next possibility can be. So just dwelling on that is something that I embrace. And I need a reminder of it. That's why there's a sign on my wall.

Heidi: It gives us hope and I think that's what a lot of people need now more than anything is that sense of hope.

Katty: That sense of hope and then also with everything that you've shared, not only to just sit there and be wishful thinking that hope something magical will happen, but to have some tools to be able to make that hope happen or to make those possibilities come to life. Someone asked me the other day what my thoughts were on change, and what did I think about change? And I said, “I think there's a lot of creativity that sits within change. We don't know what we don't know. But when that change does happen, just kind of as you were saying just lean into it and see what are the opportunities and what are the possibilities out there.

Heidi: Yeah, well, and I think creating is changing, right? I mean, it's new, you're creating, you're bringing something new to life or to light that wasn't there before. So I don't think you can have one without the other. I guess you could change without creativity, which would leave you kind of stuck in the dust a little bit if we can’t adapt in some way to what's new. But yeah, I think that's a whole different way to look at change is that it's an opportunity for creativity. We can lean into that.

Katty: Yes, and I certainly hope that for all the listeners out there all the creatives who are in between opportunities all the ones looking for new jobs, for you for me, for all of us, we will just naturally encounter change and possibilities and stress and all of that. Could we be able to utilize some of the tools and techniques that you've talked about to replenish our capacity so that we can deal with everything that is on our plate.

Katty: Heidi, where can people find you? Can you talk a little bit more about the LinkedIn Learning that you mentioned, if anybody wanted to sign up or any of that.

Heidi: Yeah, so the easiest place to find me is probably my website, which is Heidihanna.com. The other one is LinkedIn, because I do teach several courses there. I’m a little bit more active there than other social media platforms. And I have four courses available. At least two of them right now are free. You don't even need to have a LinkedIn Learning account. So if someone's listening, and you would like a free trial, you can actually send me a message on LinkedIn and let me know that you heard me through this podcast that way I'll know to accept the invitation. And say that you're looking for the free trial and I can send you a link that actually gives you 30 days to the whole library doesn't have to just be my courses. But I have a course on stress mastery;I have one on energy management; one is on dealing with feeling overwhelmed, which actually came out the beginning of last year, which is kind of amazing timing. And then this year, I created a course on how to prepare to go back to work. So some of the emotional, the anxiety, the uncertainty of going back into the workplace. So those are all available there and people can connect with me there as well.

Katty: Fantastic. And yes, that is itself very stress-inducing. Navigating, that new terrain that we're in.

Heidi: Yeah, and it's changing all the time. People ask me all this time, to give some kind of best practices and things like that. And it's hard to manage anything right now other than our emotions and our relationships and how we communicate and how we bring our energy and manage all those pieces of what's in our control because things are changing all the time.

I'm getting booked for things in person that they are virtual, which then turn into pre-recorded and it's like, you just don't know and as much as we'd like to plan for early next year. We still don't know exactly where we're going to be. Like I said it's a great lesson in flexibility and creativity. I think we just have to make sure we're really taking care of ourselves because it requires more energy to do that. So self-compassion, compassion for others, and recharging our own battery. I think those are the most important things.

Katty: Beautiful, beautiful words to bring our conversation to a close and I hope that everybody listens out there, self-compassion is so important to be able to embrace. Thank you Heidi for being here and for sharing your wisdom. I will absolutely share your website and all your great books for all the audience to follow up on. Thank you.

View Details

Our guest today is Finnian Kelly. Finnian has 12 years of entrepreneurship experience. He’s started 7 companies and has had 3 successful exits, 2 acquisitions, 2 failures, and 2 he’s still busy with and running. He has won multiple awards for being an impact-driven leader. He’s here today to talk to us about the power of intentionality and what it means to go inwards and really feel your way through your intentions as you plan your career, your next step, your job, or your next freelance opportunity. Enjoy.

You can find Finnian Kelly at:

• financiallyhappy.com
• @TheFinnianKelly
• FinnianKelly.com
• linkedin.com/in/thefinniankelly/

Finnian: So I like to think of all freelancers, really, they're all entrepreneurs. Every entrepreneur in some regard started as a freelancer, like, let's face it, we were all offering something. And then we managed to realize that perhaps our skill sets were great at bringing other people involved into the vision, and then we grew into something bigger.

So even just having that mindset that there's potentially something more available to you, is part of the intentionality process. When I think about intentionality, I define it as it's all about defining how you want to feel, and then taking deliberate action towards it. That combination of vision plus action.

Now freelancers were intentional to make the decision to become a freelancer. There was a reason you were like, I want to feel free. I want to feel like I have a choice. I want to feel liberated from not having to work in a corporate day job. So there was a vision. And then they took some action. They went well, “I'm going to stop putting myself up for some services or some jobs. I'm going to promote myself a little bit. I've had to like quit my day job and move into this realm.”

Now then what happens is sometimes what worked for us then is what holds us back. So we're getting into this place. And now to keep that vision going, we start focusing on “I've got to do this, I've got to do that.” And we forget about the bigger vision. What's the next vision from that? And we can get stuck into the minutiae and feeling like well, I've got to get this next job to be able to pay for these needs and we feel constricted so the freelancer suddenly becomes constricted from the life that they've created for themselves.

So we need to step back and go back to that moment that you did when you decided to move from the corporate world perhaps it was corporate world or another small business into a freelancer. You had a vision and this needs to be a continuous process and go “Alright, where I'm at right now… Yes, it was my original vision. But is this still my vision? Or is this something more? Perhaps I'm not working with the clients that I really want to be working with. Perhaps I'm I don't have as much freedom as I thought I'm actually working nonstop, and I'm always just catching my tail.”

So getting connected to that big picture would be really, really wonderful, and I talk about that it's not just a vision of materialistic objects, it's all about feelings. Get connected to those feelings. That's the fundamental thing of intentionality is how do you want to feel?

And with the new year coming up, it's a great time whenever this is shared, it's going to be in the new year. And having that awareness of stepping back and going, “Okay, I'm where I'm at right now. What is it that I really want to be feeling? Perhaps I want to feel more inspiration with my work, perhaps I want to feel more proud. Perhaps I want to feel more fulfilled.” And get connected to those feelings and then start going, “Okay, I want those feelings, what are some potential pathways that I need to take in order to get there and that will help me line up the action that I need to take throughout that year.” So that's where I'd be starting.

Katty: I've heard you say intentionality and really focusing on the end part, the inner journey of that versus being something extrinsic and influenced by other people–it really is that person's personal goal, right?

Finnian: Yeah. Yeah, it really is. One of my keynotes is the only way out is in intentionality. And this idea that so often, we feel trapped or we're not happy, and we're always looking external. We're looking for the external environment, and we're going well, it's because of this, this situation or because I don't have enough money, or it's because my partner isn't giving me what I need.

But really, all of those things if you rely on the external to make you feel good, you're always basically out of control and you're always at the victim or the circumstances of other people changing things.

And I'll give you a great example, my girlfriend's mom just passed away in a tragic accident, and I know you've spoken a lot about grief and in those moments you really get tested. You really see, “Am I in line with what matters to me? Is the work that I'm doing important to me?” Now, this was a beautiful moment, we had a number of retreats that we're about to do very high impactful, it was gonna be a lot of energy. And I straightaway went, well, we can't do those retreats because I want to create space for what we're doing. And she was like, “No, that's exactly where I want to be right now. Like around a healing retreat that you're running around people we love and we care about. That's, that's where we need to be.”

And our life didn't change. We're dealing with a tragedy like we're dealing with grief. That's gonna be a very, very long journey. But there was no question about what should we change about our life. And that's the power of intentionality like it's complete alignment and confidence that yes, outside things can occur, but it doesn't have to change the inside. And that's just a little test and that's where death can actually become a really great teacher and a great friend. And it's why I like what the Buddhist talk about have a relationship with death regularly because it makes you sort of value your time a little bit more and also really check in am I doing if I only had a week to live or a year to live? Like how would I live? And if it's not the same then perhaps we need to change some things.

Katty: It's those moments when it does make you question, right? And I think what I'm hearing you say is just be certain and keep questioning yourself throughout it that don't necessarily let those moments be the defining point to question, and just go inward and keep questioning. It is easier though, to blame the outside and not to take the time to really focus on working on the inside but boy is it powerful when that happens.

Finnian: It is and it's funny, it's easier in the short term, but I can tell you it's not easier in the long term. Because continuously our life just feels out of control and we just feel like we can't become happy or we just need this one thing and then once you realize that everything that has happened in your life you have contributed to you have been part of this. It's very scary to start because then you can go into it easily go into a shame spiral. About what how could I do this? How could I allow this partner to abuse me? How could I have put myself in that situation where I injured myself? How could I have put myself in that position where I was taken advantage of. And in that moment we need to have compassion and drop in with ourselves and love ourselves because shame just compounds the issue. The ego is starting to feel like that it has an opportunity to go like it's losing, you're about to take control of it, and then it hits you with shame.

But in that moment, if you realize, “Well if I put myself into that situation. That also means that I can get myself out of the situation.” Because that's the power when you take extreme ownership, extreme responsibility, you realize that you actually have the ability to influence whatever thing in your life in whatever capacity it needs to be. And that becomes a very liberating process. And that's, that's what I want everyone to get connected with and realize like you don't have to live this life like this. There's an extraordinary life for you. And this is what I love about freelancers. They all had that moment, just like every entrepreneur, they all had that moment where they went, I don't have to live this life anymore. There's a different way, but then they forget that. You got to keep connected to that feeling and keep coming back to it. I love what you said like keep questioning, keep questioning and I'm not saying you have to build a team. Just question, “Is this my path right now? Is this who I want to work with? Am I doing work that matters? Am I providing enough for my family? Is there a way that I could actually uplevel the people I work with for the same amount of work and get actually high a lot of output for my family and my loved ones?”

Katty: It's beautiful what you're saying especially right now I mean we keep hearing about the great resignation and the change in the workforce and what the future of work is going to be looking like and so many people are taking that path of saying you know, “I want a little bit more flexibility. I want a little bit more freedom. I want to be able to kind of carve my own path for myself.” But what you said about the adversity and you know, people blaming themselves and putting themselves in that position of shame. I sometimes, come across this often is where you know, with creative work, “beauty is in the eye of the beholder” and people doing creative work for others, and then the feedback that may come back from others doesn't quite lend the way they were expecting it to. Or people who are going through the interviewing process, and they go through multiple interviews and they do panel interviews and so on and so forth, but they don't get the job at the end. And it's so easy to then think, “Oh my gosh, I must have said something wrong”, or it’s that imposter syndrome piece that shows up. Anything you can share about that and how to kind of tame that beast and be comfortable in that uncomfortable moment when you get that feedback that you weren't expecting?

Finnian: Yeah, I've definitely suffered with this myself. And I've worked with it over many, many years. And what I identified a lot of the time was why I was hurt was because I was actually seeking validation or I wasn’t doing it out of my own love.

Like for example if I create something, I should be proud of myself, and then if the other person recognizes it great, but also if they don't, it's your creation it's your love, your passion. And no one else should be able to take that away from you.

It's also why we've got to be careful of attaching to the highs. Because if we attached to the highs, like when that person gives you that validation and we just think we're great. That means that we're setting ourselves up for a moment where someone else could take that away from you by saying it's not great. So I've actually learned as a speaker and someone who does transformational healing work in big retreats, one of the greatest things I have to do is when people recognize me, I appreciate it, I let it marinate but as soon as I get this good feeling. I actually have to go away and I sweep it off. I wash it off me because I know that if I get too attached to that, then I'm going to set myself up for a low in the little bit future when I don't get that. Say, for example, I get off a keynote stage and I don't get a standing ovation. I don't get people sending me messages, then I'm going to feel like perhaps it was a massive failure.

Now, sometimes people just receive things differently. And if we attach to how they sense feedback, we can really set ourselves up for failure. Great example: my first ever all Spanish audience for a keynote. Normally, I get so much engagement during the sessions, I feed off it there. I'm asking them a question they give me recognition, they will naturally say great things. This time I got crickets, and it was really really hard. It was challenging. I saw myself start perspiring. I started judging myself and I'm like, “Whoa, is this any good?” And I started losing myself a little bit like I was losing my own ability. And I've managed to pull myself a little bit. We had a videographer there, and it wasn't till I heard afterward, that I wasn't involved in the videographer asking questions. I didn't even ask him to do this. He just started going around and asking people about their experiences. And I watched those videos, and I just laughed at myself because here I was creating this mass story, which is stopping me from enjoying the moment, connecting actually having more impact. And if you heard that what people were saying, it was off the charts, it was wonderful, it was amazing. And I realized that I stopped myself from enjoying that day. That could have been a really enjoyable day for me. And it was an experience which I'll only get that one time. You only get your first ever Spanish-speaking audience one time and I could have enjoyed it more if I'd stopped seeking external validation and just trusted in my own process. And that was an awakening moment for me. And I think that works really well for freelancers, I work with freelancers a lot. I've had to learn this to have a better relationship with freelancers that often, by me not saying much, it's because actually trust the work is really good, and we're just in an improvement process. So I actually realized I wouldn't say anything positive. I just feel like I just have such trust in you. That was my thing. So I just like, “Oh, this could be better. Let's do this. Let's do that.”

And I realized that some freelancers were taking that on as I wasn't appreciative of their work. It was actually that I trusted them so much, it was just the way I give feedback. I still thought we were in an iterative and improving process. Now, luckily, over time, I've learned that a little bit better. And even though that's my style, I don't need to do that. I can change it. So now I'm very aware when I work with people saying, “Wow, this is great. Thank you.” Asking, “Are you ready for insights or observations?” Help them let me know where they're at in the process because sometimes they actually don't want feedback. They just might want to say are we on the same page or, or anything. And I think that's where freelancers can work with their customers a little bit better, and let them know. All right, what role do they need to play right now? Are they picking up minor area errors? Are they coaching, advising, critiquing? That would really, really help.

Katty: And not immediately go into their critiquing. You're right. Well, it goes back to what you were saying before about intentionality is about again, going back into that inner, inner space and to self empower and not need that external validation to know that their work is good and really have faith and believe in their creative abilities. And by all means, not everybody thinks art is the same. Everybody looks at it very, very differently. And kind of just recognizing that, if somebody doesn't like a piece of art, it's not you. You are not your art. Although it may feel like it, you are not your business, I'm not my business, although it's so much part of who we are.

Finnian: Yeah, and perhaps the journey, you're putting your artwork and then them not liking it, actually that is the art. The being able to receive that feedback, and then go all right we can go a complete 180 and then getting to that place like, “I think there's magic in that as well. There's there's a skillset in that dynamic”.

Katty: You know, you go to a museum and you see an incredible piece of art hanging on the wall that somebody paid millions of dollars for. And the next person looks at that piece and says, “What is that? I don't get it. I don't like it.” Again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

One thing I wanted to ask you was the change that we've had in work. My company has been remote for 11 years. So the remote workspace is not a new thing for me or for my team. But I know that it is for a lot of people and for people who have traditionally been used to getting their validation from the person sitting next to them in their cubby or the person walking behind them and saying, “Hey, good job. You're doing great.” And now they're in this for some in a vacuum. Can you talk a little bit about self-motivation and kind of self-empowerment? And again, all goes back to that piece of just really looking inward. What tools or experiences can you share with people about motivating themselves and just lifting themselves?

Finnian: Yeah, so whenever situations change we've gone from a physical to a remote place. We need to understand that we still want the same feeling and we can create that feeling in a different environment. We just have to be intentional about it.

I've run a remote company for years as well. They go, “How do you get the connection?” And I'm like, we have an insane connection. It is amazing when someone gets sick, the only person they hear from is a team member who sends a care package to the other side of the world, not a family member. So we've seen the direct evidence of the connection in teams, but it just doesn't happen by default. It happens by design. You have to be very aware of okay, “What are our needs?” We need to have little catch-ups. We need to have a little sharing chats.

And that's what I would really encourage anyone who's gone from that place is remember okay, what were the things I really enjoyed about that environment? What is it about how I felt and then how can I recreate that in a digital world in another way? So for example, if you receive validation from a person next to you, perhaps you have a little group that you just agree to that we share things with and it's like a little cheering group. It's a little validating Whatsapp group for example. I have that with my friends where it's a celebration to just help ourselves being motivated. So that would be one thing I'd really focused on.

And, then another thing, and I keep going back to these feelings but if you can get connected to an intention in the morning it is amazing what can happen. I've seen this. People pay me hundreds of thousands of dollars to help them just connect with an intention in the morning because it's a power move. You wake up in the morning and you smile. And I always say smile for 17 seconds at a minimum and naturally, you'll start releasing hormones that will make you feel more joy more happy. And then get connected to an intention.

We have the Seven Principles of Intentionality which you can connect to but it could just be my intention today is love. My intention is to feel joy, to feel pride, whatever it is, and you just get connected to the intention. And then you start seeing yourself going through that day. Feeling that level, that feeling that intention that you've set. And then through the day, why this intention is the magic is because every moment you have an opportunity to move closer to their intention or away from that attention. Something happens, you get triggered. And if your moment is what I want love today, you're going to go well, “I'm not going to just suddenly react and yell at that person. Perhaps I'm going to take a breath, perhaps I'm going to respond in a way that's going to lead me towards love, rather than trying to prove that I'm right. So I'm just going to go in and give a hug.” And then you feel a little bit more of an intention. And just that one act is going to drive all these other acts throughout the day and you're going to get to the end of the day and where you went, “Wow I didn't really need to plan today.” Because you didn't, because you had a guiding force pushing you in the right direction.

So I see that as the most powerful, motivating force you could do. Just getting connected to that morning intention and at the end of the day, reflecting on how you went against that intention. And it's not a moment to shame yourself. It's just like I learned some things and if I had my opportunity tomorrow, how would I do it differently? And by that, you're just uncovering your potentially subconscious programs, which are holding you back. You're uncovering where things in your life aren't leading to that intention and then you get to program yourself for tomorrow to have another opportunity and I guarantee if you come up against that same situation. Once you've reflected on it, you will do it differently. And that's where we really change. So it doesn't take much to self-motivate. You just got to wake up with the intention.

Katty: And smile for 17 seconds. Love that. For sure. Thank you. You know what I really like what you're saying, I'm going to emphasize it. An intention that is tight. It's a feeling. It's not an intention of, “Oh, I'm going to get my project out today.” No, it's not your to-do list. It's an intention that's going to come from your heart and it's that's an emotion and it's set in your feelings and you allow that to be your guide all day. Love that very much.

Finnian: And the reason why that is is because if you get too focused on your to-do list, stuff could happen that day, and something could happen. Like it could be a new job opportunity came through or something happened to a family member, we had to drop everything. And then you could look at the end of the day and because you didn't achieve that to-do list, you could feel like a failure. And however, actually, you might have had the greatest day because you might have shown up in every circumstance with love. Or you might have just been such a good inspirer because that was your intention you wanted to inspire throughout the day, and that is more powerful. You can get caught in the to-dos and you can not go anywhere. You've got to connect the to-dos of the feeling but allow it to be flexible that life can change and it can play out in a different way than what you imagined.

Katty: I really really liked that. I will embrace that myself. For sure. Thank you. One final question because I know you also talk very much about financial freedom and being financially happy and you yourself were an incredibly successful entrepreneur with multiple businesses and so on and so forth. Can you just briefly, because we're talking about the creatives out there and the freelancers out there talk a little bit about that intentionality and define financial happiness and how that kind of comes together for someone who has to be managing their finances from literally from contract to contract?

Finnian: So I'm glad you brought that in because I see there's something which holds back a lot of creators. I think it holds back spiritual people as well, this relationship with money. And we often think we have a story, “I'm creative or artistic or I'm spiritual. It's wrong for me to ask for money or it's evil if I earn good amounts of money.” And I just want you to just allow yourself to just go, perhaps there's a story running, which isn't working for you right now. And if you go to my website for financially happy, there's a quiz on there, so it's financiallyhappy.com And there's a 12 money saboteurs quiz, which is the archetype of your money story. And you're going to uncover that you've got – we've rate the three top money saboteurs and these are personas which are in your things like the dependent, the compensator, the gambler, the hoarder, and you're going to start seeing how this is showing up in your life and directly into interacting with you with how money shows up in your life as well. So that would be a great starting point to just even uncover a little bit about what's happening for you.

Now with the freelance world is often we can do the same amount of work with a different customer or a different value proposition and get a lot more money in return. And there's no shame in that. There's certain people who value paying a lot of money because they're getting value extraction back. And part of our journey is to identify what is the work that we want to be doing? How do you want it to be translated into my life? There's a reason why you've gone into the freelance world. It was to get more choice, more freedom, it really connected to what it is that you need from that and then start looking at ways that it's going to make that easier.

Perhaps you just need to position the value a little bit differently. Perhaps you need to go after a different demographic of clients. Perhaps you have to change the fee structure that you're doing it more on project-based work rather than hours-based. And suddenly then you start getting more connected to it. And you start feeling the energy flowing through from you providing energy, through your service or your creation, then feeling that energy that translates to their life and then sending energy back to you in a monetary form. And then we have this circular form of money. And once you get connected to that, you start realizing that you can be really abundant and only you were holding yourself back from actually earning more money.

Everyone has the same opportunity out there especially now that the wonderful thing about technology in the freelance world. We all have the same opportunity, it’s just that some people are capitalizing more than others and I believe it all starts with you getting to value yourself. If you don't value yourself, no one else can value you. We've seen it. Part of this with any positioning is like yeah, I'm confident in my ability of the value I can add, and naturally, then people are willing to pay more money for you for that service. Now, eventually, you get called out if you're positioning your value more than it actually is. Eventually, you get called out but there's a part of it where you honor the value of putting into the world and then other people will honor it as well.

Katty: You beautifully wrapped it up but bringing it back to intentionality is really being clear about who is the client, how do I want to be living my life on a day-to-day basis, and put a plan together for it and be intentional.

Finnian: Yeah, and there needs to be unconditional trust as well. Self-trust. It's actually more than that, it's in the universe, it's in source energy and whatever it is. And just know that if you get really connected to what you want in life to these feelings, and then you take action towards it, it's going to happen for you. Now in the short term evidence might show you otherwise. Like you might be like “Oh, I'm making this abundant manifestation I'm calling you all these opportunities and things.” And then the next day, you don't get any new calls, because you've got bills coming through. And that's the moment that matters. In that moment you have to get so connected to the manifestation that you did yesterday. Otherwise, you lose it. Now, the outcome of that day is not the outcome of the manifestation the day before. It's from the unconscious manifestation you were doing two months before where you're saying that I don't have enough. It's hard to get business, all of those things. That's what's happening. There's always a lag so you have to be able to get connected. Even though in the short term, the evidence might be telling you otherwise. And that's where it all happens.

Katty: When you do that when you're in the mode for manifestation and just really putting it out there. Are you meditating in doing that? Are you journaling? What is your process to just be still?

Finnian: Yeah, so what I do first is I always start with gratitude. And I get connected to the feelings that I want to feel, this is fundamental. If you can't feel what you're wanting to bring in, then that means you don't have it and you have lack and actually in your manifestation, you're going to just attract more of it. So if I want to bring more abundance in or if I want to bring more clients in, there's an element of me that believes that I don't have enough right now. But there's part of me which also knows that I have that in front of me like I can be so grateful for the clients I have right now and get connected to those feelings. I can get so grateful for the amount of money I do have right now and the choice I have. So I get that gratitude pumping through me first. So I'm in a state of having oxytocin flowing through me. I have serotonin. I feel really really wonderful. You know, that gratitude feeling you have that warm feeling in your heart. I breathe in and out of my heart because that's the place where manifestation occurs. That doesn't happen in the head. The head is all about fear. It's all about the future, past. It's like telling me why I can't do that. So I drop into my heart. And then I start feeling those feelings that I want to bring more in because it's activated in me already. And then I start just playing with it and I start to see how that would be possible.

Now the key with a manifestation is you want to be as detailed as you can, but you still got to believe it. As soon as you start going on. If you hear a story, that's not possible, you've gone too detailed. You need to open it up and as you get more practice with each day, you can get more and more detailed because you'll build more and more trust and you'll start seeing signs and that's the fundamental thing for me. It's all about the feelings and just playing with it and then trusting that it's going to happen.

Finnian: And I also journal. I also journal as well in the morning. I also will write out things. I will write out my best day. “I am having such a great day. This person called me. I got another opportunity I got a review sent to me.” And I just start playing with things like that all in like that it's happened in present tense. I'm not hoping this has happened and I'll just free write. And that's a regular practice.

Katty: Oh, I see. You’re not journaling about the day before. You’re putting it out there as to what your day is going to be like.

Finnian: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, “this felt so good, this is amazing, this opportunity came to me. I crushed this podcast.” Just whatever it was. And then how do you think you’re going to show up for the day? You’re going to show up in a way that’s going to lead to that.

Katty: Fantastic. Well, I think this is a beautiful place to leave it at and allow people to just take a moment, sit down and write how their future day is going to look like and it comes from the heart. Thank you, Finnian for taking the time to be here. Wishing you all the best in your next travels. Tell people where they can find you.

Finnian: Wonderful, thanks Katty. So, my Instagram is TheFinnianKelly and my website is FinnianKelly.com you can get everything from there and there’s lots of resources. Just start the journey, that’s all you need to do to honor this. Just take one action, I would say you’re one breath away from intentionality because that’s a chance to change from reaction to response.

financiallyhappy.com

@TheFinnianKelly

FinnianKelly.com

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Check out our episode with Keith Roberts, Entrepreneur | Author & Keynote Speaker | Creator of the Oak Journal.

We chat about creativity, mentorship, entrepreneurship and so much more/----more----

Katty: I'm so excited to interview a good friend, Keith Roberts, an incredible creative and the creator of The Oak Journal, for this session of the Artisan Podcast. Hello, Keith, welcome.

Keith: It's an honor to be here, thanks for having me.

Katty: I'd love to start the conversation, Keith about you as a creative and how you got your start and then we'll make that move into where you are today with The Oak Journal.

Keith: Great. So my start, I actually went to Brooks Institute of Photography in Santa Barbara, California, where I got a degree in Industrial Scientific Photography with a minor in Undersea Photography, so really applicable to the real world….sarcasm there!

I think one of the many gifts that I took away that was a life changer for me with Brooks was the level of presentation and professionalism that was required. It was easy to get into Brooks Institute of Photography, it was incredibly hard to graduate. There were 58 students in my class and 12 graduated. If you got to C you failed, you had to retake the class. A second C you were expelled.

So they were really about making exceptional artists and not about just making money, which I really appreciate, and being somebody that's owned an agency for 25 years and seeing what a lot of the schools turn out now that are based on profit versus not, really instilling what the students need to have a successful career as a creative. That was enormous for me. The other thing that I took away from that was, you know, a very special relationship with the founder of the school, Ernest Brooks. I minored in Undersea Photography and I got to spend several months living on a boat diving every day with a gentleman who has, you know, an exhibit in the Smithsonian Institute for his underwater photography. We had Jean-Michel Cousteau, Jacques Cousteau’s son, dove with us for several expeditions. So the taste for once-in-a-lifetime experiences, I got at a very early age.

Katty: Oh my gosh I got goosebumps. That's incredible to have that opportunity at such a young age, that just opened up the whole world for you to be able to look at everything through their eyes too.

Keith: Yeah, and I would say it also set an expectation that I did not want to have an ordinary life. I remember to this day at my grandmother's trailer in rural Indiana she had a poster of the poem, The Road Less Traveled. And I always remember that last verse “Two roads diverged in a road and I took the road less traveled by and that has made all the difference” and that was an early opportunity to see when everybody else is sitting in a classroom or working on being an engineer, which was the safe job in the 90s you know, and my dad was an engineer, and that was the safe route to go..what was possible if you really followed your passion.

Katty: Beautiful. And I know that, unfortunately, Ernest Brooks passed away recently. And you wrote a beautiful tribute about him. Can you talk a little bit about mentorship and just kind of what that meant for you to be under the tutelage of this incredible person?

Keith: Absolutely, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to continue to honor Ernie. He was one of the many mentors that I've continued to work with. It was a gift and I think, realizing as a Buddhist, I believe that there is no such thing as a coincidence, but when the student is ready to teach her presents itself and I think there are so many lost opportunities when people don't realize that there's this synchronicity happening all around them.

And so, with Ernie Brooks, I remember something specifically said that the boat we lived on was “Just Love.” and he said, “The time we spend upon just love is not deducted from our lives.” And it still chokes me up to this day, and I think that's why he lived to be as long as he did is because he spent so much time on that gorgeous boat.

But mentorship is essential and it's not something that ends with the first. Ernie sent me on a path, but at Brooks, I met Lapsom, who was somebody that worked with the Dalai Lama, and he put me on a path from being a devout atheist to finding Buddhism and changing the entire path of my life. Even though Lapsom was very briefly, in my life. And then there was a gentleman, Dave Larsen. I assisted a couple photographers Vic Huber and Bob Carey, those were also mentors that helped me continue to push what I wanted to be as a professional, but when I broke out and started working as a photographer, stock photography was really decimating the market and a lot of established photographers were closing and so I spent a year as a starving artist, and then had to get a real job. And that's how I got into doing design, where I met my next mentor, a gentleman named Dave Larsen. He saw me as a designer that, head down when things weren't going to get accomplished by my peers, I would jump in and make sure that we hit our deadlines, and he was the one that actually gave me the opportunity to move to Denver, he promoted me within that organization that was acquired by Equifax. And then the next step was EO and the mentors like Warren Rustand and having those people that continue to inspire you to tears.

Katty: Well said. EO for the audience is the Entrepreneurs Organization, a network of about 16,000 members entrepreneurs across the globe, and that's how Keith and I know each other. We're both members of EO, and have a lot of people, a lot of mentors in common. Warren Rustand is the gentleman that Keith just talked about. So, obviously, the influence of all of these incredible people has created an indelible impact on you, one that you carry with you still today. When and who kind of lit that spark of entrepreneurship for you?

Keith: That's a really good question. I don't know. Actually, I do. I remember in seventh grade. The funny thing is it wasn't really inspirational, it was my accounting teacher or some class that I had and I remember he explained a definition of an entrepreneur, and it was horrible. It was somebody that was going to have many failures before they have a success, probably have, you know, one or multiple bankruptcies. I mean he really described an entrepreneur as an atrocious choice to make in your life, and I remember sitting in that class and being like, “Huh, I think that's me”. Going against the grain, not following the rules, and facing insurmountable odds with optimism. So it was sort of an adverse inspiration.

Katty: I love that. I absolutely love that. You can see this on my wall, it says “dwell in possibilities.” It's my absolute favorite quote, and that's what entrepreneurship is all about. There is a possibility out there so let's go and do it.

Katty: I love that. At what point in your career after you were working and obviously studying photography, making the move to design and working for Dave Larsen. At what point did you say okay now I'm ready to start my own agency?

Keith: It was actually serendipity, so I had been doing some stuff as Zenman, as a freelancer, while I was working at Equifax, which is where I worked for Dave Larsen. And then they had moved me from California to Denver when the merger happened. Like with most acquisitions they within six months realize the redundancies that they'd acquired and they'd also moved us out here. So, I always had the goal that before I was 30 I wanted to be my own boss, to have my own business, to be an entrepreneur. And I actually was given a freeroll, I had a six-month runway, it was pre-September 11, the economy was great. Based on my management level, I had a half-year runway. I looked at that opportunity like once in a lifetime, I'm never going to be given this gift again. I took my severance package I tore up my resume, never to be edited or used again, and formed Zenman as official business.

Katty: It's one thing though to go from being a solopreneur, and to running and creating one. Having employees, having that responsibility for other people, beyond just yourself. When did you make that transition?

Keith: That was a couple of years later. So for the first three years, it was just me, it was called Zenman because I was the Buddhist creative guy I was the Zenman. But then as we started adding employees and scaling, you're absolutely right, two things happened; my stress level increased exponentially and my personal income decreased catastrophically. And it probably took five years to get back to where I was after adding that overhead and that did not alleviate the peaks and valleys that came with a service-based industry.

We weren't doing a lot of recurring revenue at the time, so each month it was eat what you kill, and it was feast or famine, many times. And I would even say past that, so that was eight years into the business. It was another five years before I joined EO, that I really learned how to be an entrepreneur. The first decade was stubbornness, willingness to work 100 plus hours a week, which led to, you know, illness and all sorts of issues. But it was actually learning how to run a business, learning how to be a leader, even learning what EBITA meant, which I didn't know the first 10 years. These things are essential, but we don't know them all right out of the bat. We weren't taught those and you know photography school or, you know, wherever we go.

Katty: I think you bring up a really good point, in terms of kind of what, what has been taught currently in art schools. For artists and creatives, as a whole really putting their practice and their expertise in the various programs that they use, you know, whether it be Adobe Creative Cloud or Figma or whatever it may be, but not to forget the business side of them because so many of them are solopreneurs and are running their own freelance business; to really have a good understanding of what the accounting side of it needs to be. Either to outsource it to an accountant and or do it themselves, whichever they want, but to really look at that business as a business. I think it's really important to be able to have that full-scale picture of it.

Keith: It's a really good point Katty because I learned the presentation skills and that's one of the things I learned at Brooks was a well-put-together portfolio that's perfectly mounted and everything is top-notch is going to get more jobs and better photography with a sloppy presentation. The one thing we didn't learn was the business part of running a studio, photography business, freelance business.

So for the first 15 years of my company or longer. I saw the business's checking account like Monopoly money, it wasn't real money to me until it came to me. I mean millions of dollars were wasted by not having that clarity and understanding and business education, which is essential. And I think you know the tables have turned, and now the most secure opportunity is to be your own boss to be an entrepreneur versus trusting your career into some other company hitching your wagon to that star and hoping that they not only are successful but that they continue to value your contribution and reciprocate that with job security.

Katty: Very very true and very well said thank you for that. Now you've recently transitioned out of your business. Is that correct? Am I saying that correctly?

Keith: No, that’s correct. Yes, I sold Zenman to a SaaS company called Mblue in Latin America. It has been an amazing transition. I was really nervous. I know so many people sell their business and they lose their identity. They make a bunch of money and then they become miserable. I feel very very fortunate that it's been a serendipitous partnership that maintains a legacy in the business and I'm helping them grow and accomplish their goals. I think the mindset of win-win, it wasn't I'm tapping out the last day, it's that I'm committed to it and that the people on the other side have the trust and respect to let us continue to run our practice as we do.

Katty: Fantastic. And obviously, I know this from having known you the past few years, you've embarked on this passion that is now your sole focus in your business, which is an incredibly beautiful journal that you've created for others to use, and I can see the experience for having put a great presentation together that you learned so many years ago, really manifests itself in the Oak Journal, it's absolutely beautiful. Can you talk about what that spark was and why did you decide to go into this business?

Keith: Yes, it is a combination of two things, it is my Ikigai but I didn't know it when I started down that journey. Ikigai is a Japanese term that means life's purpose. But one of the things that I really wanted to do was stop trading my time for money. I realized when I had kids that time was the one finite resource we had. As an agency owner and a top paid creative, I make a lot of money per hour and it's still not a good exchange. So, my goal was to come up with a product-based business that would fulfill my needs of financial independence without trading my time for money, and in finding the right product that's how I came up with the Oak Journal. I wanted something that I could use my knowledge to create and do a better job than anybody that was currently doing this with the skills I built over the two decades of running Zenman. So being able to design something-- I've designed many many books over the years, but being able to take the life experience, skills, you know even Warren Rustand’s 10 10 10 and weave that into a paint by numbers roadmap that anybody can use to live their best life has been transformational and it really made me want, with intention, transition out of the Zenman which was 100% my identity, it's my nickname, it's what people call me, to helping others and being a bodhisattva.

Katty: Fantastic. So, as a practice as a mindfulness practice and gratitude practice. Is that something that you were doing anyway before you put the journal together?

Keith: Yes, I've been meditating for 20 plus years and about 10 years ago I started practicing Transcendental Meditation, and it has had as big of an impact on me as the Entrepreneurs Organization has. Meditation is a superpower. If somebody doesn't think that they have enough time in their day to meditate, you need meditation, more than anyone, and you will find if you start a simple practice, it gives you time in the day because you're more productive, you're more clear, you're more creative, you're more focused. I wish people would look at meditation like a free pill that would give them superpowers like that movie with Bradley Cooper, Limitless, you know, it's not quite that but it's pretty amazing how much, just having a 10-minute meditation can change your day.

Katty: I love that. Can you talk about that and creativity and where you see the through-line between the two because we talked about being quiet for a few minutes, that's what we're talking about here.

Keith: Yeah I mean that's a really good question Katty thanks for asking. I mean the most amazing ideas if you look at, you know songwriters or inventors they happen in the shower or while they're driving down the highway and the reason that is they're not thinking about other thoughts, they're not thinking about their problems, their mortgage their issues with their partner, they're just washing their hair and at peace with their mind, their mind itself and so we're able to come up with those really, really creative ideas. So I am intentional with creating those moments from meditation, to start my day to even having core hours where I turn off all devices not just my email, my phone is in airplane mode there's no you know Twitter open. I don't do that ever anyways, but you know there's all distractions are turned off so you can focus on writing your book, working on that creative project, or whatever it is that needs to be accomplished. You can really get into those that state of theta brainwaves with intention. Willie Nelson actually does it by just driving his truck; he writes his best songs when he's driving down the highway. So once he figured that out when he wants to be creative, gets in his truck and he starts driving. So there are all different ways you can get into that state.

Katty: Yeah it's interesting because creativity doesn't necessarily happen nine to five staring at a screen. It happens when you're out in nature and happens when you're just, you allow your mind to get creative. To go inward I think it's just so important to be able to do that.

Keith: 100% I agree.

Katty: I've done meditation for years. I only can do it if it's a guided meditation. I have not gotten to a place where I can do it on my own. But even in the guided practice, I find that so impactful and so helpful to be able to do that.

Keith: Yeah, I agree. Try TM it's just a mantra I think that one will--And there's nothing wrong with guided meditations. I still do those as well and I practice those with my boys, but I have struggled with contemplated meditations that weren't guided until I found TM.

Katty: Okay, I will look into it. There's also a couple of other friends who embark upon TM. You’re the third person I’m hearing this from, so I think maybe the universe is talking. So you've started your boys on meditation?

Keith: Yes, now we make that part of their day. In fact, when they were very very young, we had them in three different preschools before we found a school called Morningstar that was a yoga and meditation-based preschool. So the boys started every day with yoga, they did guided meditations. It was a very Eastern hippy Boulder-esque type of preschool, but it really resonated with our boys. Now, they don't embrace it with the same joy that I do, but they understand the value of it. It's almost like a joke in our house that we’ll all talk about the benefits of meditation and be like “I know Dad, you talk about this dad, I know that you wrote an article about this, dad.” So I'm hoping one day, they’ll listen with the same attentiveness that somebody to keynote does.

Katty: Fantastic. I know that the Oak Journal you just came out with a new version of it, can you talk a little bit about the differences between this and what you were doing? In addition to the different sizes, but what's that creative process for you, because clearly you're still a very creative person and you've just channeled that creativity into this.

Keith: Yeah, I love making things. So the main changes that we made, the biggest one is we move production to the US, and now it is being produced with environmentally friendly materials. The factory that we were using in China, didn't have the same standards and so that was the biggest one to us to have something that was made with our core value of environmentally friendly alignment, and also, it helped with just production delays and shipping and everything we're dealing with right now around the world.

The other piece is, each week has a positive psychology exercise, and we had people that have been doing it for over a year and so they were repeating the same, let's create our bucket list every nine weeks and so they were getting diminishing returns. So the next version is to 2.0, we're going to make four versions total so that you can have 48 different positive psychology exercises. I'm sorry, 54 different exercises that you would do in a year in two weeks, and then you could repeat it. We're also working on two other products. One is called the Sequoia, so that's your 10-year journal you set your BHAG and your moonshot. And then you're incrementally working towards that. With the series of 120 Oak Journals and then our passion project right now is the Acorn. So this is for children, and this is actually something that we're intending just to give away. We'll definitely print it and have them for sale. But anybody that wants an Acorn Journal anywhere on the planet will have a free.

Katty: How beautiful and I love all the tree references and all the nature references.

Keith: Thank you. Going back to our roots, beautiful. And thank you for connecting me to your resources for my journal too. You've been so gracious, I have to say that Keith, talking about mentorship, early on. You've just been so gracious with sharing your knowledge and all the trials and tribulations of bringing this journal to market and sharing that with me and with others who are interested in that. So definitely a mentor, so thank you for that.

Keith: Thank you very much Katty, I appreciate it. I truly believe all ships rise with the tide. And, the more we can help each other, it just benefits everyone. And I know more people having your book and your journal is going to help them. I think one of the things I'm blessed with here in Colorado is the creative community was very symbiotic. We do compete with people but at the same time, my competitors would reach out to me and say hey there's jobs out of our league, this is more in your wheelhouse, could you take it. I think when you have that mindset of collaboration, then it's reciprocated.

Katty: And it's beautifully said because so many freelancers are so siloed and the importance of community can't be overemphasized, to be part of that community, whether it's Creative Mornings or AIGA or whatever it may be, but to find a community of other creatives to be able to collaborate with is so critical.

Keith: Yeah, you said it perfectly, not being on an island, not being in a silo. You know just leaning on somebody, I mean, EO was great during COVID. I don't know how many people in our chapter wouldn't have gotten their PPP, if it hadn't been for other members that say hey I have this connection at a community branch we can help you, don't worry about going through the big bank you've had for 20 years, you need to call Mary at Mbank and she'll submit your proposal at three in the morning to get you taken care of. Mentorship, and also the peers that you just have, in a connected, trusting, and vulnerable way when people don't have their guards up when they're honest with what's going on. It's amazing how we come to each other's aid. When we just raise our hand and say hey I need help.

Katty: Yeah, very very true. It's been an interesting year for sure. And we're still in it, by all means, it's not a done deal. What would you say is one of the biggest lessons that you've learned for yourself during this pandemic year and a half?

Keith: The importance of community and connection. You know I've seen other people that don't have the network, that really struggled that sort of went inside and dealt with everything personally, versus just like we mentioned having that community that you can reach out to. I mean one of the blessings of EO is that it's a global community. So, I took it as an opportunity because I could go have a coffee with a friend in Denver every day, to have a zoom call with a friend in Melbourne or you know just other ways to connect with people around the planet. I actually feel like, for me, it broadened my global connections, even though I wasn't able to travel and I am chomping at the bit to go travel to meet these friends.

Katty: Yeah I agree 100% We did that on the family side. And I don't know if I told you this when we saw each other last week, but since March 20th we started a family zoom, and we've had one every single Sunday since then. So March 20th of 2020, and my family is all over the world, nobody lives here in Los Angeles, so to be able to have this very intentional focused one-hour zoom call with one another. This is with grandparents and grandkids and aunts and uncles and the brothers and the sisters, that I think the max point we had 18 people on our zoom. And it still happens today, every Sunday at 10am. It’s the Douraghy family zoom call, and it's similar to a forum exercise. So everything starts with an icebreaker: everybody talks about a win, everyone does a one-word open, and it's been transformational because we're actually learning things about each other that we wouldn't otherwise because we're not asking these very intentional questions of each other when we're physically together. So it's been phenomenal in terms of how close we've become as a family.

Keith: That is really cool, that's such a cool gift. I think it's also a perspective, right? I mean you could look at it that “hey I haven't been able to be in the same room with these people.” But the flip side of that coin is you just created a tradition that hopefully will go on for generations. And we were blessed to have the technology to be able to do that, I mean even 10 years ago it would have been a different world we were in and I think so much more challenging to face this isolation.

Katty: Oh, I agree 100% 100% agree, and look, the future of work has changed. And without the technology that we have today wouldn't have been possible to continue.

Katty: What is getting you excited and inspired these days?

Keith: You know what gets me excited is actually, I think, something that's really messed up right now. And that's the changes that I think are inevitable with social media. You know what's coming out about algorithms intentionally presenting inflammatory content. I'm actually excited that there will be action taken to hold these people accountable. It's going to turn the world on its head as far as advertising, e-commerce. But that's already happening with iOS changes and privacy, which is not a bad thing. Personally, I am quite happy having the exact product that I want presented to me in a way that makes it easy to purchase it. But I am excited about the change that's going to help remove the wedge that's dividing this country apart because the truth of the matter is on 95% of the issues were exactly the same. And I think there are some toxic influences that are exasperating our divide, and I am for the first time in years, optimistic that we're going to start taking that wedge out and coming back together.

Keith: Whatever we can do to make that happen.

Katty: Yes. And one final question for you, something to leave behind for our audience, especially those who are embarking on their creative career, and/or because of COVID have had to pivot their freelance business or if they've lost their jobs. What are some lessons learned that you want to leave them with in terms of determination to just continue, continue the task?

Keith: Two tools that I will leave one; I'm a big fan of Dr. Joe Dispenza, and he has a tool on manifesting what you want. So if you're struggling right now, maybe you lost your job during COVID or your business failed or something. Set your intentions with a tool he created where you take a piece of paper out, you write emotions on one side and intentions on the other. So if your goal is a new job, what is the intention? I get to travel three months out of the year and see the world. I'm making enough money that I'm financially independent. What are all the intentions that you have? And then on the other side under the emotions, what are the feelings that you have? Actually, try to feel those emotions so you can manifest it. And that is a great tool. I love that tool but it is the first step.

The second step is doing the work. The thing that I hate about the book The Secret is it's all about having the right mindset and everything's just gonna appear in your life. The mindset is critical. It's essential, but it's the first step, you've got to make continuous daily progress, you can't just wish upon a star, that you're going to have your dream job. What did you do today to actually accomplish that goal? What incremental progress, even if it was just five new connections on LinkedIn that you sent out. What was the incremental progress you made today towards living your best life?

Katty: Beautiful. Thank you, Keith, thank you for joining us here. Where can people find you and where can they find that your beautiful journal?

Keith: Oakjournal.com you can connect with me on social. Look for Zenman, you will find me or anything Oak Journal related, you will definitely find me and you can direct message me, you can even email me at keith@oakjournal.com if you have any questions.

Katty: Thank you. Before I let you go, I forgot to ask this, you also do a lot of sessions where you teach people how to journal and meditate and so forth. Correct?

Keith: Absolutely. Yep. I do it, I literally just got off one right before we started. I was doing one for EO Cape Town, but I also do them for individual forums, for companies and I have a masterclass that's a six-week class people can do, it’s an Oak masterclass.

Keith: oakmasterclass.com or Oak Journal. They all are pretty good at all the SEO interlinking web thing having owned an agency. So if you get to one of my properties you can find everything that you need and will guide you through that journey.

The master class is a six-week intensive that we work on in small groups and then individually. And it's a requirement I do a little bit of coaching but I'm really really particular with working with people that have the growth mindset that you know are going to be a good fit. So everybody has to do the masterclass first to make sure we're both on the same path.

Katty: Got it. I'll put all the links in the show notes so that everybody knows how to find you and where to find you.

Thank you for listening to the artisan podcast, brought to you by Artisan Creative.

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Jaime Levy, Ux Strategist, Speaker and author of UX Strategy: Product Strategy Techniques for Devising Innovative Digital Solutions

available in 6 languages and now also on Audible

You can find Jaime on LinkedIn and on jaimelevy.com

Katty: I’ve been watching your career trajectory, and I was super excited to see that you had written a book, UX Strategy and that the audio version has just come out. So I wanted to have a conversation about you, about the book, and how you started your path.

One thing that I've noticed is this trend of reinvention with you from a designer to a strategist to an author to a public speaker to a professor, and how all of that's going to come together for you. I just found that fascinating, so I'd love for you to talk about your origin story and what's steps you've taken to come here.

Jaime: Let's see. Well, I guess it started even before the browser when I was creating my floppy disk magazines, and I was a graduate student at NYU, and just really interested in nonlinear storytelling.

And then trying to invent this new medium like it was just this total insane dreamer thing. And I guess because of the floppy disk I made, I actually finished it, and then I successfully brought the product to market by selling it. A floppy disk that opened into a HyperCard or Director presentation. I know for all the newbies, they're like, “What are you talking about?” Don't worry, you don't need to know this old-school stuff.

But you know it used to be really hard to make interactive presentations, but the upside of all of that was that you could be the first or you could do something that is only mediocre in design. But because it was the first it was like “yay.”

That was how I started out. I was a horrible interface designer and a horrible coder. But I just kept pounding on these floppy disks, and then, the short version of it is Billy Idol bought one, and then it got launched as a commercial endeavor and then I got my gigs at EMI records and Viacom. And it all just kept going from there you know to eventually, doing an online magazine, and then getting a creative director role and just constantly working.

I really believe that if you just keep working, and applying yourself, and learning new things, that eventually you'll connect and get whatever it is that you want. Some job, or some gig, or an opportunity. And I think that relentlessness to persevere was something that has stayed with me, and I actually need to kind of manifest it now as I'm starting the next chapter of my career.

Before UX, it was called interface design and then after interface design, then it was web design and then after web design, then we had information architecture and interaction design. And by the time I got back to LA after 9/11 and the dot com thing crashed in New York, as well as, San Francisco and LA, I came back here and it seemed at that point I needed to focus.

And I should mention early on as a result of the (floppy) disk I was asked to be a part-time professor at NYU, and I did get flown around the country and the world, to speak at conferences, and I think like when you have that success when you start out you think that's normal. And so for me, it's just been catching up with my old normal, and it's a curse and a blessing, and the blessing is obvious because you're like, oh, I just want to continue to be a public speaker, I want to continue being known or recognized for my work. But the negative consequences, it's an addiction, it's like a high that you set here and you think, Oh, I always have to be at this level of an overachiever. And so, you know, in that sense I feel like I didn't engage in my own personal life, you know because I sacrificed it for my career so much and didn't really like relax into it until my 30s when I got back to Los Angeles.

Katty: Interesting. I saw you actually speak about it in one of your talks. I think was your Brazil talk about being an overachiever and what that means and constantly trying to do things, new things, or do things in a new way. I found that fascinating, it went through that same reinvention theme that I recognized in what you were talking about. So thanks for sharing that. So you mentioned, the new chapter, a new iteration of Jaime.

Jaime: New? It's in progress. So, you know, I did my first book and I did really well with the first book. I was insane to write a book. That was so crazy. But I just felt like UX strategy was so interesting and even though nobody was paying me to write it, you certainly don't make money off of the book. I just was like okay I'll take a year and a half and spend my savings and write a book and sit in the library. And it was really rewarding.

And so then when it came time to do a second edition, if I want to be current I did that. And I did it during the lockdown so that was kind of a good thing to do when you can't really go teach in a classroom or go run workshops in a public space. But basically, my book is now out in the second edition and is being translated into languages, and I just found out it's in German and Italian, and Portuguese this time, you know, on top of the other six languages and that's really exciting.

But the thing with the book is you need to promote it, and you know and you need to go do things to market it. Whenever you make anything whether it be a floppy disk or a website or an app or a book or you're marketing yourself as a public speaker, it's one thing that you do it, but the other half of it is in order to be successful, you just got to market yourself or your product. And it's fine when I get paid to do growth design and markets and run experiments to market other people's products. But I think, I'm kind of at least right now, I feel I'm just kind of over-marketing myself. All of a sudden I feel like, ah, can't life just be simple again? Let me just get a job ideally as a UX strategist and, you know, and that's it, let things quiet down.

And so you can say it's an existential post-midlife crisis, or maybe it's a phase but I just had a job interview with a company that I hope I get, and they were telling me that they just had written an article related to this subject about so many people basically looking at their careers and saying, “Do I even want to do this?”

I feel like COVID Hit the reset button for a ton of people and so now I'm less killing myself about, “Oh wow, I'm really not going to go crazy promoting this book because I don't feel like it? Is there something wrong with me? Or is it just like maybe I just have to accept to let people read the book. I hope they like it.” And if people ask me to speak fine, but you know, I think it's like at a certain point you have to say okay where's friction and friction is trying to go tour and do workshops at what we hope might be the end of the pandemic but isn't. You know, it's like I suffered the same fate as people who, you know we're in an orchestra, you know, or who had movies that came out. So I'm in great company of people who made their money by doing things for the public and in person and now that you know, there's no UX conferences really planned. I'm speaking at the one in Estonia, one, this year, zero last year zero the year before, you know. So it makes you say what am I going to do now?

Katty: You're right, it definitely has been a reset button on many fronts. We've seen this so much with so many other candidates that we work with who are re-evaluating “I've been doing XYZ until now, do I still want to do it, do I still want to live here?” Just really evaluating everything, but I totally hear you about the book because I also wrote a book during this pandemic. I had been working on it for three years, which was far too long but that's just the length of time that it took. The circumstances where we found ourselves allowed me to finish it, so I am grateful for that. That was the silver lining in this crazy year and t it allowed me to finish it and get it out. But it's just sitting there and it's nowhere near where it needs to be... but it is what it is. It's a story I needed to get out. I got it out. Now, if people find it, awesome, and if they don't then we’ll cross that bridge.

Jaime: What's your book called?

Katty: It's called The Butterfly Years, and it's just my personal story dealing with grief and has nothing to do with Artisan Creative and it has everything to do with me. Obviously, as somebody who's running a company, it is going to have to come to grips with having to manage grief and make that work otherwise it permeates everything.

Katty: If it helps people out there, it's there. If somebody is going through it and they need to hear somebody else's story who's been in the same boat. Then I've done my job.

Katty: Yeah, So when I heard that you had done your second edition and you had just done an audiobook. I thought you know I want to talk to her and see how that whole process was for her.

Katty: Congratulations on your interview and I hope that it ends up being the right next thing.

Jaime: I hope so too. That would be great if my first interview turned into a job offer.

Katty: Putting out the good vibes.

Jaime: They were very surprised because it was a UX strategy position and I didn't have anywhere in my portfolio that I wrote it. I didn't want to say that I literally wrote the book on UX strategy because then they think oh she's not humble or she's too experienced so I didn't mention it. They saw something in there and I'm like, “Oh yeah, I wrote a book kind of related to UX strategy.” and they're like what's it called, I'm like, UX Strategy. I can't even own it. I can't even own it, you know, I'm just like, ahh so shocking. Yeah, you know, I want the opportunity to practice what I preach. Enough, running around with the same lectures and enough training.

I've done so much training in the last year, I think sometimes we just need to go back and forth and be okay with it. I'm not saying I'll never do workshops again, I just need to take a break from that part of it or and pursue it. So yeah hopefully something will come up for me that is enjoyable. Because I think it's important to have a job if you like and what I was shocked by when I looked at the job market this time was, oh my god there's 8,624 UX jobs in this country and 30 or 40% of them are remote, and there's actually jobs advertised for UX strategist title. It used to just be me and two other people. I don't know if my book helped define the industry but it seems like when I read the job description, it had everything that I wrote about in my book so it's a really exciting time that there's so much opportunity out there.

Katty: Yeah, for sure. I'd love for you to maybe help define that a little bit, because obviously, we hear you know there's on the design side of it, UX there's XD. Now it's customer experience, employee experience. Can you talk a little bit about that I know for just what I've heard you talk about before, it’s really the research and the strategy is the precursor before you even get into the design part of it. And I learned that thinking time is so important to be able to do that? Can you talk a little bit about that?

Katty: A little bit of both, actually.

Jaime: Sure. So I basically define UX strategy as the intersection between product design and business strategy. So business strategy is the top-level vision of an organization. How do we make money, who are our customers? You know business is defined, ultimately by their customers.

So they have a vision and the vision might be a platform, multiple products, a suite of products, or one product. And then it's like how do you really elevate that product, and bring it to market? So that when people have that first whiff of it, they're like, smells awesome. And so when I started doing discovery phases back in 2008, 2009 for Schematic and for Huge, I really fell in love with it. Because I love doing competitive research. So interesting, I mean who doesn't want to get paid to research the marketplace? And I loved the idea of finally getting to do user research. And so that was when I really became interested in it and realized that there was nothing out there that told us how to do it. I would just make things up as I went along and as I moved from different organizations, I would clean up my deliverables and take them to the next level.

And then when Lean Startup came out--People don't think of Lean Startup, as a product strategy methodology but I certainly do. It's this idea to build the smallest version of your product, get it in front of your target customer, learn from it, whether it be an alpha or prototype, extract data from these learnings and learn from it, and then iterate.

All of a sudden the discovery phase became not something like Waterfall; first, we do discovery, then we do the implementation, then we do usability testing and find out at the very end that not only does our product suck but nobody wants it. It was insane. And now all of a sudden, the discovery phase became something that can be iterative and cross into the implementation phase, and you can start building products and doing strategy, and testing it and validating it in much smaller loops all along the way. So that's what's really exciting is an opportunity to run some kind of experiments to knock out, to do rapid prototyping, to use whatever it is like sketch XD, other prototyping tools to get business concepts in front of the target users, and start doing user research that's more focused on validating a value proposition, versus, you know, is this thing usable? Even if it's really usable, but nobody wants it, then who cares if it's usable, right?

Katty: Yep. Very good, and with plenty of products out there with great usability but they're sitting on the shelf. I probably have a few of them.

Katty: Fantastic. You talked a little bit about this but I think, given where you are going, pivoting, and where you see the future to be for you at this juncture. What can you share with people who are either just starting out in their career path? And/or because of this past year, lost their positions, and they have to reinvent themselves. Where is it that you dig down deep to find that inspiration and that determination to just say you know what, this isn't working, let me figure out where it is that I want to go?

Jaime: Yeah, I think just to be honest it's very different for someone like me with two to three decades in the industry versus somebody who's starting out. So I wouldn't give someone the same advice I would give myself, there's definitely different things going on. I can remember very well when I was starting out and the same feelings that I have now are similar. My dad gave me this great advice. When you're looking for a job, or when you're starting on your career, and when you interview with people, you want to be careful that you don't have this flashing L on your head. Loser, loser, loser.

Because people will spot this lack of confidence or low self-esteem, you know, and it doesn't matter how successful you are, or have been, like me. Because you can still have low self-esteem or imposter syndrome, and so, it's like you need to somehow put all of these fears of I suck;. I'm not gonna make it; I'm an imposter;I am so crazy that I thought I could do this film, to begin with. I'm too old or I'm too young or my portfolio doesn't have X, X, X.

I have to constantly work on this, to this minute, which is spinning a much more positive narrative in my head that, “No, no, I have something of value to give”. And then putting that negative energy into therapy, exercise, whatever you need to do to take care of yourself, but I still to this day, put it into how can I showcase my work, what's missing? You know, look at my portfolio. Okay, it has all this but it's missing, you know, this one deliverable. Well, I better make it, fake it till you make it, you know, and figure out a way to like get it in there.

And the funny thing is is they may not even ask for it on that job interview, but if it's like this thing that you think is missing, then it's going to be flashing the L on your forehead and so to me, it's like puffing yourself up and what is it going to do to make you confident for these interviews and if showing your portfolio and getting excited around the storytelling of your UX design which, it still is for me, then get that into your portfolio and any missing things. Don't spend eight hours a day looking for a job, spend four hours and the other four hours teaching yourself a new tool because there's always going to be new things to learn. And if you're not open to learning new things, up until, you know, your 50s and 60s, then whenever that is where you're not open to new things, you better be at that last job that you're going to station yourself at, because the industry, I promise you, just keeps on changing. You know it's amazing.

Katty: Gosh. Great advice. I think for all levels of career and years in the industry and also not even to have to do with business. I think for anything where we tend to sometimes focus in on the thing we don't have versus on the things that we do have it's just such a great lesson to say you know what to say we have to reshift that mindset.

There's a great book that I read a couple of years ago by this woman called Sally Helgason, and it's called How Women Rise, and she talks a lot about specifically women and how we get into this mindset of, oh, but you know what, let me work harder because I'm missing this 10% thing and not focus on the 90% that I have and it's just crazy. I see it all the time. I see it, not just in candidates I see it in myself. And putting myself out for a conversation or a talk or something and if I don't get it's like, oh, that's because I didn't talk about this. You know what, maybe just wasn't the right thing. So, yeah, great lesson. And I think also that that whole thing also speaks of desperation, and I think that that comes through, so loud and clear, it erodes the confidence that would naturally be there if somebody has worked on their craft.

Jaime: Yeah and we need to in this field of product design or research, ultimately we're making something that we need to upsell, at the very end, even if it's to our boss and say yeah this is awesome, you know, and it's like, oh my gosh if we come to it from this place of fear, we're never going to sell it. So I think it's easy to focus on the negatives for a lot of us, and we can't afford to do that in our field because we're always upselling our work.

Katty: Yeah. Have you ever taken the StrengthsFinder assessment? Have you ever done that?

Jaime: No, I don't even know what that is.

Katty: It's similar to a DISC or Myers-Briggs. But it focuses on your strengths. The reason I like it, we do it for our company and we talk about our strengths all the time. Its created by Don Clifton, and is now as part of Gallup and it’s a personality assessment. The reason for him creating this was that he felt people focused on their weaknesses, and not on their strengths. The whole thing is about what are your top five strengths and let's lead with your strengths and not focus on a thing that is number 30 something for you, let's focus on the things that you're really good at and then find someone else who your bottom five is their top five and then collaborate. So it sounds like it's just human nature that we go there. If we could learn not to go there, it would be less, I think less of a headache for all of us.

Katty: Crazy. So, I know you're teaching, you're doing online courses, you mentioned that you're doing a talk in Estonia. Are you doing that in person, are you doing that virtually? How are you managing your time and all the different places you need to be, or how did you manage your time and all the different places you need to be?

Jaime: Yeah, I don't know how I'm managing my time right now yet. I'm still waiting to see where a bunch of things land. But the Estonia conference is the first onsite conference since COVID, since March of 2020. Well, basically there's very few conferences in the beginning of the year for the first quarter anyway.

So, anyway, it's Web Usability Day I think is their legacy name. But it's a one-day conference and then there's workshops, three days prior to it. It's in Estonia, it's very affordable, it's gonna bring in like a massive crowd of UX professionals. A lot of new ones but people mid-level and all over the place. And they're coming from Estonia, but they're also coming across the Baltic from Finland, and a couple of other Baltic states. So, I'm closing the conference, I guess I'm kind of headlining it, and then my workshop is one day right before that. So November 25th,iis my UX Strategy Workshop and then November 26th is the conference. It's a Thursday, Friday, so but I'll be in Berlin back in November, and then I'm doing a couple of talks, just private ones where I'm flying in. And then going back to Berlin and then I'm going to do this thing in Estonia.

I am so over this idea of more online workshops. I think they're a joke, sorry guys, but the whole point of conferences was to get people together physically in a space to network and touch base with other people and build relationships. And it seems I've done a bunch of these fake conferences, and it doesn't feel the same, they never pay and it's a joke. So I'm not into those anymore. I'm really stoked that these people you know, the COVID cases are extremely low [in Estonia]. I've had my third vaccine. already so I'm totally going. I won't be taking too much risk but definitely, I'm really excited to be around humans and doing my thing.

Katty: Yeah, humans, human connection. I'm traveling internationally for the first time since March of last year as well, and I'm going to Mexico and then to Dubai. But, I have to navigate the whole PCR test thing because I'm not going to be in the States for three days before I go so I got to figure that part out.

Jaime: Yeah. It's a crazy time. I can't believe really what happened. How much the pandemic just changed everything, it's just, it's shocking.

Katty: Are you seeing that in the world of products, are you seeing what's happened with a pandemic impact, whether it be design thinking or about how people are approaching research. I would imagine that it's changed how people are looking at how they go forward.

Jaime: Yeah well, everything's online now. When I left Huge back in 2009, 2010. It was because I didn't want to drive in my car in rush hour to agency land in Culver City, and I didn't want to work in person, I wanted to work from home. So I've been working remote since 2010 and it's not new to me, and Cisco Systems when I worked for them as a UX strategist, everybody was a remote workforce. So finally, the rest of the world is catching up with us and learning that it is possible, and even outside of product so I think it's opening up opportunities in many ways. But, the negative consequence, and I felt this when I taught my last course at Claremont University, was that my students who were graduating, were just getting internships, but they're online.

At Facebook or wherever, and at any point in your life where you need human contact, and you need the nuance of someone kind of seeing that you're confused, and you need mentoring or you need to get the confidence to ask for help, we need that to be in person. I feel like the people that are getting the worst end of the deal is the college graduates, the people who are just starting their career who have to start it by themselves in Zoom rooms. Hopefully, there's going to be some way that it isn't just this experience of online collaboration, because I just feel even when I had my second or third cat life of getting into the UX world, I can't even imagine that I would have had the trust and camaraderie that I had with people at Schematic who came over and showed me how to wireframe when nobody was looking. So hopefully maybe there's some way that people can reach out and have people to connect with for that kind of support since they can't get it in person.

Katty: The whole mentoring piece of it. Yeah, taking somebody under your wing. It's harder to do it this way. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I have some nieces and nephews who started their first year in college last year. You've worked really hard to get into the school of your choice, but you don’t get a chance to really experience that. So now as a sophomore, they're getting to experience it for the first time because now some other classes are in person. So really interesting to kind of watch this new generation of those who are starting and those who are graduating, it's just a very different world, for sure.

Jaime: Yeah it's crazy. It's really crazy and maybe five years from now we'll look back on that and go, Oh man, it was so great, why didn't we just do all that remote work and it was so easy. But it is weird, I just got off the phone with a client and he's just saying that he's not leaving the house and he doesn't want to get the vaccine because he almost died from a vaccine from something else a long time ago, so he's just like staying in his house for his whole life. And I just, I feel in our field where we're designing products for customers and users, it's like, “Nah, we need to have human contact and get out there.” When I'm feeling really low, I reach out to a friend and I have to dump, and say “Ugh”, and have them tell me. I just hope we don't lose everything as a result of this, online world that we live in now.

Katty: I don't think so. I mean I certainly hope not. I do feel that there's a hybrid version of it that's going to be more pronounced. I mean we went to such an extreme this past year, I do think there's going to be a hybrid world in front of us. I haven't quite figured it out yet, but little by little I think we'll fall into place. Let's end on a couple of inspiration pieces. Where do you get your inspiration?

Jaime: My inspiration now is probably-- I consume a lot of film. I like to have a big impact. I actually went to the movie theater, on Sunday, by myself, bought a ticket to go see Ich bin dein Mensch, I’m Your Man, a German film about a man robot who was built to learn on what a woman wants and then they program him to be the perfect partner. It was amusing, to walk into it, to have it open up and see all of Mitte Berlin and see the TV tower and see the food and see inside the flat. I miss Berlin so much right now, I felt like when I got out of there I had just gone to Berlin. It just reminded me of all these tiny little things. So I get a lot of inspiration from being able to transport myself into different realities physically and through film, and right now, traveling is limited,but I definitely get my inspiration from seeing other cultures, other ways to live.

I lived in Berlin for most of the pandemic, and it took months, but after being there and away from here for so many months it really-- when you experience other cultures, it makes you appreciate and also find things you don't like about your own culture. But I feel like having perspective is what inspires me.

Katty: Love that, and for creativity to bloom, do you need that spark of inspiration for creativity to happen, or is there another thing you tap into when you sit down to write or to do another wireframe or to create, what would you tap into for that?

Jaime: I don't know, I wish I could answer that. I don't know. I spend my days at the computer then I go and walk on a trail. It’s extremely important for me to get out and walk in nature and I do that every day and I listen to the same 3 podcasts. The New York Times Day thing, The Berlin Briefing, and then Doug Rushkoff’s Team Human And that stuff, while I'm like in nature and walking around listening to these podcasts, again, I guess I feel transported and I feel immersed. I think that when I leave the house, and when I come back, whether I'm jogging or listening to music and weird experimental atonal music that nobody would like unless they’re into weird music. That helps me really reset the crazy stuff we're telling ourselves in our head or just like being in a mundane moment. I think sitting at a computer for more than four hours, not healthy for me.

Katty: I love that. Both for creativity and inspiration, it's not going to happen nine to five necessarily looking at a little screen. To be able to get out of this and just get other influences. I find nature so healing in so many ways and my ideation just goes off the roof when I'm out and about.

Jaime: Where do you go, where do you get your nature?

Katty: My favorite place is Point Doom in Malibu. It's a very easy little hike, but you are at eye level of the pelicans flying by. It’s just the most incredible sensation sitting there and you see these majestic birds flying right at your eye level. So whenever I can, whether it's a birthday or an anniversary or something special, that's where I like to go.

Jaime: Nice. Yeah.

Katty: Well Jamie where can people find you?

Jaime: People can find me on LinkedIn, @Jaimerlevy. I'm on Twitter, I'm not tweeting so much. I was told I need to get on Instagram but I'm like, “What?”. And then Jaimelevy.com and then the book userexperiencestrategy.com. I'd love to just mention if people don't like to go walk in nature. I recorded my audible book at this great studio in the valley, where I grew up, and it's me reading my book and doing some impressions of myself, and it's a lot of stories and so far the reviews have been really favorable. And so if you're not a big reader like me I hate it, I don't really like reading. I can read an article but long-format, not so good. Check out my audible book if you're not sure go to userexperiencestrategy.com and listen to the first two chapters and try it on. But I'm really excited about the audible, you know for my book I self-produced it, paid for it, and it's mine. So that was important to me, you know.

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Seth Silver is an Executive Creative Director who is on a mission to put creativity at the center of business growth.  We chat about creativity, and the intersection of art, culture, and design.  You can find Seth at Sethsilver.io or on https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethsilver/

And a should out to The Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising where both Seth and I graduated from. #artisancreative #theartisanpodcast #FIDM

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Branding copywriter + cat lover.  Check out Brennan's work here (and see Daphne's pictures too!) https://www.onlybrens.com/

From working with Conan O'Brien while he was in college at UCLA to touring the country multiple times and earning a living playing the bass, to being a writer and creative director at a variety of agencies, startups, and corporations. Brennan brings humor to every opportunity.

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Erica is passionate about feminism, storytelling, and conversations between humans which serve to reduce shame and stigma. In her spare time, she volunteers to clean up the loose shards each time a glass ceiling is shattered.

You can find Erica at www.ericamhart.com/

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She has spent the past 12 years in marketing with a specialty in strategy, events, and account management. She is passionate about advancing diversity in the workplace, the marketing industry, and the world. She thrives on creating processes out of chaos and building long-term relationships.

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You can find Brionna on LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brionnasimons/  or at www.brionnasimons.com

Info on OBE can be found here: https://www.obexp.com/

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You can find out more by visiting: https://mchaledesign.com/

And you can find Joe here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joey-campos/

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Check out Kara's podcast The Kara Goldin Show

Kara can be found on all social channels @karagoldin

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Kara Goldin is the Founder and CEO of Hint, Inc., best known for its award-winning Hint water, the leading unsweetened flavored water. She has received numerous accolades, including being named EY Entrepreneur of the Year 2017 Northern California and one of InStyle’s 2019 Badass 50. Previously, Kara was VP of Shopping Partnerships at America Online. She hosts the podcast The Kara Goldin Show. Her first book, Undaunted: Overcoming Doubts and Doubters, was released October 2020 and is now a WSJ and Amazon Best Seller. Kara lives in the Bay Area with her family.

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Join us to hear Sarah Caravalho Khan, Culture Transformation Leader speak about empathy, culture, and the employee experience.

James Williams's book mentioned in the podcast can be found here and available as a free download from Cambridge Press.

You can find Sarah on Linkedin

You can find Katty on Linkedin

You can find Artisan Creative and on Linkedin.

Full transcript

Welcome to the Artisan Podcast. Where we explore creativity, inspiration, and the determination, it takes to be an Artisan. This podcast is for Artisans by Artisans. I'm your host, Katty Douraghy, and I'm thrilled to introduce you to our next guest.

Katty: Thank you everyone for joining us on this episode of the Artisan Podcast. I am thrilled to welcome Sarah Caravalho Khan to our call here. Sarah and I have known each other for many many years, and she was one of our clients several years ago. Today she is the Director of Culture Transformation and Customer Success at Align Technologies. And given where we find ourselves currently with this remote workspace, I thought it would be great to have an opportunity to speak to Sarah about culture and how to create and maintain culture in our workplaces. Now, the conversation that we're having is really me reaching out to Sarah, knowing her expertise, and knowing our working backgrounds together. She's not necessarily representing Align in terms of the conversation that we're having today. This is really more her experience and her knowledge that she's bringing to the table and sharing with all of us. So without further ado, Sarah, welcome! It’s so great to see you.

Sarah: Yeah, it's great to see you as always. It's been a long time.

Katty: It has been a long time. So, I wanted to chat with you about culture. Obviously, it's always critical in any organization. What I'm finding, what I'm hearing from a lot of our clients and talent alike, is maintaining culture in this remote setting, how to go about that and how to even from an onboarding standpoint, how to make sure that message is clear for incoming candidates. Could you talk a little bit about that and kind of how you've gone about fostering culture?

Sarah: Absolutely, I think, you know, most recently, I think that the things that I'm working on around culture have to do with a couple of things. I think, connecting to something bigger than yourself, is first and foremost, so that there's a sense of relatedness, between me as the employee, and my organization or between me as a contractor and the person I'm working for. There has to be a real sense of relatedness. You know, it's so interesting because I think that, especially in this environment, as we have gotten away from the face to face, you know, you have to remember a lot of people have always been living in an environment where it's been remote, and, you know. A know a lot of people working freelance in the gig economy, have been working for a long time, this way. And so it's probably not anything totally new for them, although it may be new for the people who are employing them. And so I think that you know, one of the, the very, very, I think, important things to keep in mind is that being very very authentic and genuine. I think this is what really helps to create the virtual intimacy. I think as you're onboarding, making sure that you're working with each other, and maybe little things like you know, of course, we all know about cameras now. That's one big thing but you'd be surprised how many people still don't turn on cameras. But I think really more importantly is I think a sense of authenticity and connection. I think that that's where we see the greatest success, and personally as I've been working with groups globally. This is where we had some really good success in connecting with cultures around the world, really different groups, just being very honest and open and connected and you're with them, there's a mindfulness element as well.

Katty: I love that and I love that you use the word relatedness, because relationships come from relatedness and really can’t build those relationships, unless if we're having that connection with each other.

Sarah: I think this is one of the connections to empathy that I know that I have a special focus on right now as I'm working on culture. And, you know, there's a great book I'm reading right now by a philosopher John Williams. He talks about the attention economy and how we're so distracted in this environment and in this world right now and that leads us to make choices about how we interact with each other, and how we interact with the world at large, that maybe we wouldn't interact with if we didn't have this competition with technology and our attention. I would take that even further in my environment and think about, you know if you only see people or customers as numbers. You're never going to connect to them on a human level and really understand them so it's really necessary to kind of get past the point where, where you're looking at people as an archetype or a persona and really, really individualizing the attention you give them. So empathy is a really big part of it as well.

Katty: Yeah, absolutely. I actually read this quote the other day. Hold on one second, let me grab it. That really resonated with me. I'm reading Brené Brown's Dare to Lead right now.

Sarah: Oh, she’s great!

Katty: And the quote was, “In the past jobs were about muscles, now they're about brains, but in the future, they’ll be about the hearts.”

Sarah: Absolutely.

Katty: The Director of the London School of Economics, Minouche Shafik. That's very much what you're talking about here. If we don't lead with empathy if we don't lead from our hearts. It's really hard to be able to connect, especially in this environment.

Sarah: Absolutely, absolutely. And that requires people to learn new things and learn new skills that may not have--I believe personally that everyone has the capacity for empathy. I think that sometimes we exercise that muscle more often than less often and I think that this is going to be a skill that is really really one we're going to have to exercise in order to be able to connect to each other, and in companies and our employees as well.

Katty: How would you go about teaching that, if someone is coming from a place where empathy and being empathetic really hasn't been--how they've kind of grown in their leadership style?

Sarah: I think, you know, that's a really, you know, the million-dollar question right there. I think that there's a lot of emergent work on, you know, I think at its, its most, you know, operationalized. “How do we measure empathy, how do we measure that, and then how do we teach that?” I think that those are two things that we're grappling with it at the place that I work right now. But I would say, you know, really, it starts with a sense of knowing who you are first. I think that understanding, hearing examples, understanding what empathy looks like, understanding how, how it feels to have an empathetic conversation. Sometimes it just depends on what I'm doing with my work, but sometimes I will lead a conversation about empathy, and actually toss it back to the people I'm working with. “Do you think it can be taught?” And then we have, this kind of dialogue about, “Well what does it look like when you're doing it? How does it, how does it sound?” And we practice, actually, we do, you know, discussions and this is of course, part of design thinking and the design thinking philosophy is that you have, empathetic, interviews or dialogues with your customers. And, you know, it's just taking it, even back down to the work that I do with customers, it's like you can't solve for something that some pain that people are experiencing unless you go there with them and understand it. And you can't understand it if you're asking the wrong questions. And so a lot of it has to do with really asking the right questions.

Katty: Yeah absolutely and I think that sometimes, just as human beings we don't necessarily listen to connect, we're listening to solve. So our brain is thinking fast about what else should I ask next versus just hearing what somebody is saying.

Sarah: Absolutely, so I mean and I'm guilty of this too. My husband will tell you I am totally guilty of this, but I think that you know, being intentional I think it's another thing that's really important. I saw this show on the Life of the Buddha, once on our public television, here in the San Francisco Bay area. And there was a point where the speaker was saying you have to pay attention. Pay attention. And so I think again, bringing it back to mindfulness. What kind of conversation are we having right now? Are we having a conversation so that there is an even exchange? Are you listening so that I can just hear you and not provide a solution? What are we actually doing? And I think that that's, a hard thing to do but I think it's really necessary if we want to connect with people and learn, learn this as a skill to be better in tomorrow's workforce really.

Katty: Yeah, absolutely. I think you know that I'm fairly involved with the Entrepreneurs Organization, and when we come into our small groups with fellow entrepreneurs, that's exactly what we do, we actually keep problem-solving at bay. We don't come together to problem-solve from giving advisory, being in an advisory capacity. We come to the listen, really understanding and knowing that the person probably has the answer within them somewhere.

Sarah: Yes!

Katty: Right?

Sarah: That's right.

Katty: And just trying to be there and be present with them, maybe experience, share if it makes sense. But really just to be there and listen and have them kind of come to that, that conclusion for themselves. It's hard!

Sarah: It's totally hard! Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I think that for me -- I'm very, very fortunate because I'm also a certified coach, and I was lucky enough to get certified through the NeuroLeadership Institute, which is a group that really studies how the brain reacts. That's where you know relatedness comes in. That's a social threat that the brain responds to negatively. So I learned all this stuff about how our brains work, and what you're saying is so true, I think, you know, I learned that in my coaching, training, and practices. People know what they need to do most of the time. It's just about facilitating that process and so I think personally that's one of the most rewarding things to see whether you're managing people or you're coaching somebody or you're volunteering with an entrepreneurial organization. To understand that you're just a facilitator, you're not there to give the answer.

Katty: How do we bring that back to the interviewing environments?

Sarah: So interviewing for talent, you know, when we're bringing talent on board. Yeah, I think that it comes back to the kind of conversation that you're having right? So, really, in that kind of context, it's-- you're wanting to hear about the experiences that people are having. And, you know, it is such a challenge sometimes to not sound like a robot. And say, “Well, tell me about a time? Tell me about a time? Tell me about another time?” But really, I think that showing genuine interest, asking a question saying, “And how was that for you? What was the outcome?” You know, asking kind of those, those follow-on questions, and again it's not looking at my list of questions and knowing that I have to get through eight or nine before the interview ends. It's understanding what you generally need to get out of the conversation. And for me this is what I work with clients in a coaching situation it's, you ask one question that is definitely open, and then just dive in and go there with them, and it is so much fun, you know, I mean you have to keep track of time for sure. But really just being very very curious about that experience that someone is telling you about. And, “So who would you have to work with on that?” And it was that difficult when you had to work different time zones and it was just really getting into the weeds with somebody about their experience, and they'll tell you, probably more than you thought you would ever get.

Katty: Yeah, absolutely. One of my favorite questions is just to ask candidates on the creative side; what projects they're most proud of, and why? And just that pride just shines through and they talk about what they created and who they worked with and how they overcame the challenges and then it becomes a story.

Sarah: Yes. Yes, and isn't that what we're looking to do? Is find the stories. Yeah, yeah absolutely.

Katty: Love that. So, speaking of stories and stories that companies tell, you know, really as it pertains to their core values and the stories of how they present themselves. Can you talk a little bit about just culture and core values and how the two of them play a role in hiring, as well as onboarding someone?

Sarah: Yeah, I think hiring onboarding and I would even pull it through to say, you know the whole employee experience, including how people perform and how they show up every day, how they treat their co-workers, how they treat their customers, and then how they off-board. You know, I think that that's a thread, the values thread that you can pull all the way through. I'll give you an example. Actually, I'll give you a couple of examples. Many years ago, when I was working at San Jose State University. We were starting a whole onboarding program and we had a conversation with each other as we were creating the program about our values. And it's like how do you teach values that you know in a way that it's not going to feel heavy-handed and in a way that people can actually live these values? And what we used to do was, which I thought was great. We worked with a company called ITS. It was a great company to help us think through how to do this. Was talking about our values, but we didn't just talk about the values we had discussion about how that would show up, how that shows up for people in, you know, in general. And then really having a discussion about how, and I found this to be true in my personal life. I would say you know as James Williams says in the book that I'm reading about attention, as he talks about, he calls it Starlight. So as we understand our Starlight, our guiding principles. Then really, what follows is easier, you know, when we have to make those decisions. So, when I'm hiring somebody if I know what I need to be looking for and showing up in a candidate. That will be much easier. That's going to give me a lot of information when I'm onboarding again, reinforcing those values but making sure it's very important that people understand that if they're living by our values as an organization. It's going to make their lives a lot easier when they have to make decisions. Because we want people to be empowered to make decisions, and we can't make every single decision for each other. It's just impossible and so I think it becomes a framework that you can use to make sure that people are able to say okay well if this is the decision and I know my value is empathy. Then, this is how I'm going to approach solving this decision on my own. So I think that that's, you know, that's, definitely part of it. And I think that you know, again, you can see it in hiring so there are a lot of really cool assessments now that if you define your values, you can actually have candidates take assessments that will, you know, show you basically where there is opportunity to grow. And where there's a definite match for your core values as an organization. But I think even without you know in a fancy assessment, you can just ask questions about values and organizational values. Even if I'm the head of a department, and I want to understand if someone's going to work well for my personal values, you can always ask about that as well. And then to the extent that there is resonation in the conversation, I think you'll understand to what extent there's a connection point. And then again of course, throughout the employee lifecycle and the employee experience, reign those values and so that's not just you know when you hire and then onboard, it has to continue to live. Otherwise, it does feel really empty, and it's not going to resonate with people when you bring it up once a year during performance, right.

Katty: Yeah absolutely, and it doesn't work if it's just a plaque on the wall with the words.

Sarah: Totally! Oh yeah yeah. I think about it. That's kind of the worst way to do it, right?

Katty: Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, it's interesting how your values just show up on a daily basis. I think about Artisan’s core values and one of our values is agility. And I can say during this pandemic if it hadn't been for that one core value to really make us be agile and just think differently and go with the flow because it was just really really difficult. Knowing that a particular path that we had planned for 2020 and didn't end up being that path. So, just to recognize where those core values are showing up I think it's important.

Sarah: I think, I think you're totally right there, and I think the other piece of that is to highlight. You know, we wouldn't have chosen these core values unless we knew that to be successful in this organization, these are the ones that you need to display, right? or I know personally, you know, where I work agility is one of our core values, too. I personally know that if I'm not agile or if I don't demonstrate agility in my thinking and flexibility because I think that's part of it, right? I'm gonna have a really hard time. And so I think that it's an indicator I think when you're at a place and you're getting hired or you're going through interviews, you know, if it hasn't been mentioned yet, I would ask what the core values are. Because that will give you some information about to what extent you're going to be a fit for the organization. But yeah, absolutely. I think that that's a really important thing to think about. And then the organization, to the extent you can highlight opportunities to share with people, how people are successful so that it keeps it really top of mind for people.

Katty: Yeah. Important is to be able to highlight how those values are showing up for them, for sure. You touched upon something that I'd love to kind of dive deeper on, and that's the employee experience. I know I hear about user experience and customer experience all the time, I'd love to just kind of learn a little bit more about EX and what that world looks like.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah, totally. You know, I think this is a really exciting time. I think for this kind of piece of the discipline to come out. I say discipline, I think about HR traditionally has many disciplines. There's competition benefits there's recruiting, whatever it is. But then there's also, you know, an emerging place of employee experience. And it's not just in human resources, it's emerging in customer experience as well. It's emerging in all parts of organizations. And there's a research organization called Forrester that where I work we’re involved with. And it's so cool because when I first started working with the CX team when I was still in human resources before I came over fully. My team and I were really just very involved in reading everything we could about employee experience and really understanding that there was such a strong connection between the employee experience and the customer experience. You know, you almost can't if you think about it, you almost can't separate them. And so I had just kind of dipped my toe in the water and asked Forrester, a little bit about this, and they had a lot of articles and research that they had done on this. And you know, it was really, really great to read that there are different organizations at different steps in their maturity around linking EX to CX. But you know, I think it starts with, you know -- we all talk about the customer experience or CX and, you know, sometimes we'll do some dream mapping which really goes through tracking, maybe points in a customer's journey with us. When are they going to be, when are they going to be more delighted and less divided at different points in time? And I think that we really should be doing this with employee experience as well. Is tracking, you know, my team did it actually with the help of our CX team when I was still in human resources. So let's talk about onboarding and let's talk about the employee their first, you know, six months to a year. Let's track some of those key points in time where they're either going to make a decision or something is going to dawn on them and let's talk about whether that's a magic moment or a tragic moment. And let's talk about why, and let's look at those tragic moments and see what we can do about it. So I think you can approach it in very much the same way but I think that would be really cool. And, you know, I'm sure there's organizations out there doing this but, you know, how do we kind of overlap that employee lifecycle with something that a customer is going through. And, you know, if there's a point of time when a customer really needs something and our employees really need the same information and can't get it to the customer. That's when things can fall apart, right? You kind of start to see some weak links there in the process and so I think it's part, you know process reengineering part total creativity because you're looking at a journey, and you're seeing what options there might be to make it better. But there's also a lot of empathy that's required and necessary for something like this.

Katty: I love that, and really just looking at-- because you're right, the employee journey, really, as our internal clients. Right. And, you know, making sure that we're giving it as much emphasis, if not more because the employee journey isn't a positive one, then it's gonna manifest itself externally.

Sarah: Absolutely, absolutely. Sometimes it happens where you're--I had this happen to me maybe a month ago, where I had someone on the other end of the phone say, “Yeah, you know, I'm just going to tell you right now just for full transparency, you know, we're giving you this. This gift card because you had a really bad experience, I would cash it in in the next two weeks just saying.” And I'm like, Oh my gosh, what is happening for the employee, what is happening at this company where they have to make you feel compelled to do something? And so, I think that's absolutely true and I’m never going to buy from that company again. And it's not the employees’ fault but something is broken. And I think that is just you know I wouldn't-- I think that's an extreme example, but I think that these things come up, you know, when people are overwhelmed. Because their employee experience is such that they don't have any balance, then they're not going to answer customer inquiries, or there's going to be absenteeism because they're getting sick or whatever it is, right? I mean it's so interconnected and I think that we're just really starting to learn about the connection to the CX, the customer experience, right now. So it's an exciting time.

Katty: Yeah, absolutely, and just the customer experience, the employee experience. And I think internally how we could tie that back to coaching and mentoring and making sure that, that employee journey is one that is on a growth trajectory. That there are opportunities that we can look internally at our existing teams to see how they can spread their wings and grow. It’s really important.

Sarah: It is, it is. And I think that this kind of comes back to that point in time where you-- Everybody's looking for a personalized experience now it's just the world we live in, right? And so, I think that the challenge for people who are managing other people. I know it's a challenge for me when I manage people. Is how do I make sure that everybody gets what they need? Whether it's you know, a personal development plan, or maybe somebody just needs more of a mentor in a specific area, you know it's so much easier to do a one size fits all. But I think that's where you can tie it back to empathy because if you actually recognize your employees as people, it becomes a little bit more natural. Because you're going to remember, you know, and we start looking at a span of control where you're, you know, managing a team or 20 employees of course gets harder. But when you're managing a small team, I think that it's really important, more important, even to get to know them as people when you're talking about growth, because everybody needs something different.

Katty: Yeah, absolutely. You talked about assessments, I'd love to dig into that a little bit more. We use StrengthsFinder here at Artisan. My husband's actually as StrengthsFinder coach. So I have a lucky assessment, you know, professional that can help us administer this, but I find that ever since we started doing this, I found it so eye-opening. And just in terms of my own understanding of myself and how I react to particular things or how I, you know, maybe I should be paying more attention to XYZ because it's important to my employees because their strengths rely on that. Can you share a little bit more about assessments, is there one that you're a big fan of, do you recommend companies to use different kinds of assessments?

Sarah: Yeah, I mean StrengthsFinder is great, number one. I love StrengthsFinder and of course, there are so many assessments now I mean I could tell you maybe just like a fraction of the ones that I've worked with because there's so many that you can choose from. I would say, you know, it depends on what you're trying to do with the assessment. So you know, for example with Myers Briggs, obviously you want to be very careful that you're not making hiring decisions because it hasn't been validated for hiring decisions. So I guess that would be the one thing that I would say is if you're wanting to look at exploring assessments, just make sure that it's been validated for hiring and probably want to validate for hiring at your company just to make it legally defensible. I think that from just an overall good development, I think again, Strengths Finder is awesome. One that we use right now is called Outmatch. And you know, I say we, but you know we at the company I work for, and that assessment is kind of like you have to go through a discovery process. It's validating because it's for hiring and development. So, that's where they look at your core values, and they look at the things that are important to do well at the company. And really, there's an assessment again-- it's been validated for hiring. So we give it to employees who come through the organization, and it is a data point. It's not the data point, but it's one thing to think about as we're making decisions. And I think the really cool thing about it though is that you can also not have the person retake the assessment but you can run it again when they're an employee for development. So that's pretty cool. You know and I think that there are just lots of other assessments but I think that there are also lots of other ways to do self-assessment, you know. There are lots of frameworks that you can use, again, I think it just depends on how you're going to use it. If it's for development, I think there's a little bit more flexibility, as long as there aren't implications for performance management, again they're all these rules, right? But I think that you know, Frameworks are really great too. There's, there's another one that I was actually just thinking about this morning, called the TKI and that's the Thomas Killman conflict modes instrument. Which is a really great one, and it's not necessarily, you know, to give to warring factions, you know you don't give it to different departments that are having problems but you give it to individuals. You know I've done this in workshops where we look at --it's kind of a proactive way to look at the way that you approach conflict. And so you may be less assertive, and you may, you know have a different style than someone who's more assertive and it really just teaches you how to recognize that, and then what to do about it, and how to develop in that area because I think that, you know, and again, this is like when we teach you to know how to how to actively listen. The people who are like me and super chatty. You know we may be more extroverted and may get our ideas heard a little bit more than someone who is, is maybe just going to kind of wait, think about it before they chime in, and then it might be too late. So conflict is not necessarily not getting along, it's really how do I get along in the world of all these different ways of having different needs in terms of asserting ideas.

Katty: Yeah, I love that, because really what we're talking about is self-discovery really more than anything else is. And that's why I mentioned StrengthFinders, we don't use it for hiring. It's really more for communication. It's like, what are our communication styles? Are you high on communication? Are you high on empathy? Just having an understanding amongst one another. But surely, I think all of these assessments and Frameworks is a good benchmark just for us to learn a little bit more about who we are.

Sarah: Totally. Yeah absolutely and, you know, I think that you can find good assessments, just like you can find bad assessments online and so if someone is just dipping their toe in the water for the first time I would just look for something that's been validated and that's reliable like StrengthsFinder. You know if you're going to use Myers Briggs have someone who's qualified to deliver it and don't do an online assessment. You know, just that kind of thing I think a little of that goes a long way but I think you're absolutely right. It's more about self-discovery and, “Okay so this is what it is. And now what am I going to do about it?”

Katty: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Well, Sarah, I want to thank you for the time that you've taken to be here with us and share your insight about culture and core values, and the employee experience. I think all of it is just so powerful in terms of making sure that we're cultivating culture, in our companies whether it's in a remote setting or one day we'll be back in person. But I think that the key things of kind of really understanding that communication piece and that empathy piece is so valuable to hear about. Is there anything else you want to add before we part ways?

Sarah: No, I think that we've covered it. I think that you know, I would just reiterate that I guess-- Well yes, there is one thing. I guess I think about just the world of work, but it's really the world at large. You know how we're relating to each other as people. I think I'm starting to see evidence that there's a little bit of a turn happening where we're not so polarized. Maybe just a little bit of a peek of hope that you know again I think that empathy and understanding each other better and not as numbers and demonstrating curiosity I think for me is how we're going to get to healing, you know, whether it's you know, two people having conflict or country or different parts of the world. So I think it's just been great talking to you and it's been great to kind of reflect on this for myself so thank you very much.

Thank you for tuning in to this episode of The Artisan Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Artisan Creative, a staffing and recruitment firm specializing in creative, marketing, and digital talents. You can find us online, at artisancreative.com or via social channels @artisancreative. We look forward to connecting.

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https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickostermann/  and www.corporatevisions.com

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He is also ranked as #  9 on Glassdoor's list of the highest-rated CEOS at small and medium companies.   

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In The Core Value Equation, Darius shows how core values create the ultimate decision-making engine for your organization that consistently produces spectacular results.

https://therealdarius.com/book/

https://www.facebook.com/therealdariusm/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/dariusmirshahzadeh/

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https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshuaabramson/

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https://debbiegoodmanbhyat.com/

Debbie is the founder and CEO of Jack Hammer, Africa’s largest executive search firm.

For more than 20 years, she has partnered with some of the region’s top corporations – helping them find great leaders for executive and board appointments. She is currently living in the US, extending Jack Hammer’s footprint to California.

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Artisan Creative has been a remote team for the past ten years,  Over this period we've learned some best practices and tools that we'd like to share with you.

Remote teams need TLC

T: Technology

L: Leadership

C: Communication

If you wish to see the accompanying slide deck, please check out our you tube channel  

Artisan Creative is a staffing & recruitment agency focused on creative, digital & marketing talent.

www.artisancreative.com

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Our guest today is Camilla Fischbacher, the award-winning Art Director for the 200-year old Swiss textile company Christian Fischbacher.

Camilla has been featured in Architectural Digest, Elle, and Vogue and is the creative force for introducing Benu recycled fabrics. She details her journey over the past decade to bring Benu to the market with her team and create luxurious (flame retardant) velvet fabrics made from recycled pet bottles.  She shares how she's kept innovation and inspiration alive at Christian Fischbacher for both existing clients as well as the new clients who are interacting with their brand for the first time.

Camilla details her journey as a creative herself as a photographer working with B&W film using a Hassleblad camera. She has exhibited in New York, Berlin, Tokyo and Switzerland.

For more info please visit www.fischbacher.com & https://www.fischbacher.com/en/news/benu-recycled

Facebook @christian.fischbacher.1819

instagram @christianfischbacher/

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Darcel Danielle

Welcome to the Artisan Podcast where we explore creativity, inspiration and the determination it takes to be an artisan. I'm speaking today to Darcel Danielle, who is a professionally trained actress and stunt performer.

Today she's going to be talking to us about what it takes to pursue your passion, and what she does on a daily basis to fuel that fire for herself to be able to keep motivated and laser-focused on pursuing this career choice.

She's been acting for the past 10 years and performing stunts for the past two. She has performed in numerous feature films, short films, commercials, and TV shows, most recently she is performing stunts in HBO’s Watchmen, starring Regina King, and she has on a regular basis, has been the stunt double for Jill Scott on Black Lightning. 

This is such a motivating and inspiring story of passion and determination. Enjoy.

You can find Darcel Danielle on Instagram and Facebook, and on IMDB 

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Welcome to the Artisan Podcast! Where we explore creativity, inspiration, and the determination it takes to be an Artisan. This podcast is for artisans, by artisans. I'm your host, Katty Douraghy, and I'm thrilled to introduce you to our next guest. 

My guest today is Daniel Hernandez, who is an LA-based fashion stylist and artist. Interestingly, Daniel and I knew each other about 20 years go and have not been in touch for the past 18. And through the power of social media, we connected and decided to have this conversation today. So, let's welcome Daniel to the podcast. 

You can find Daniel Hernandez on Instagram

dannyhernanny/  and nanohernandezartas well as online at http://nanohernandez.com/

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Hisano Shepherd is a multi-award winning pearl designer who has created quite the buzz in the industry with her unique and innovative pearl creations.  She is the founder and designer at littleh and the Chief Creative Officer at PearlParadise.com.

Tune in to hear about her journey and the lessons learned along the way.

You can see Hisano's work here

https://littlehjewelry.com/  

Follow her on Instagram and facebook at @littlehjewelry

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artisancreative.com

Katty: Welcome to the Artisan Podcast. Where we explore creativity, inspiration, and the determination it takes to be an Artisan. This podcast is for Artisans, by artisans. I’m your host, Katty Douraghy and I’m thrilled to introduce you to our next guest. My guest today is Joni Yamashiro, a Los Angeles based UI / UX designer who has been one of our freelancers for a number of years here at Artisan Creative.

I have worked closely with her for our internal collateral, our website, as well as quite a few marketing pieces, as well as several assignments with number of clients. And I just love working with her. There is nothing this girl can't do. From illustrations to avatars to HTML to web graphics to collateral pieces you name it, she can do it. And she always does it with a smile. I’m thrilled to welcome her today to this episode and would love to hear how she got her start. Good morning!

Katty: I was thinking about a theme for our talk about this morning. And I thought of determination since certainly you and I have been determined to make this podcast happen.

Joni: Amen! It’s so true. We surely are.

Katty: For the listeners out there. This is Joni and I’s third attempt. We’ve had equipment issues…

Joni: Lots of technical difficulties.

Katty: Lots of challenges. But here we are.

Joni: Yes, here we are. Third time’s a charm, we are determined, we are here.

Katty: That’s right. So, so true. So, on that theme of determination. I wanted to talk about determination in your career path. What was that fire in the belly for you that kept you going?

Joni: I think as most creatives are. You have to use that creativity to sustain your life really. I feel like if I wasn’t doing something in the creative field then I couldn't really survive and speak my truth and what's truly who I am. So, I think that it really sparks the fire. And because it's hard to sustain a full time gig as a creative, you really have to keep pushing on and like finding that lane that's for you that you can monetize. And, you know, make a living off of. So, being determined to find that creative path, it definitely helped me find my way.

Katty: Yeah. When did you know though, when did you know that creativity, and being an artist was the way that you had to go?

Joni: Well, I always liked art, growing up, and you know, like to draw and all the stuff that kids do, but I never thought that I could make that into my profession. I think most creative people are scared to do that. Because it just doesn't seem like you know, a path that's, that most people do, especially, you know, like... I'm an Asian kid, I was raised by Asian parents, you know, that whole thing, like, you just, you don't see a creative, as the traditional lawyer, doctor, engineer type path. So, I kind of have to, like, figure out what worked for me and like, how I could really use that -- use my creativity to create a lifestyle.

Katty: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And not an easy lifestyle to get started in, right? It's just knocking on lots of doors and going on a lot of interviews.

Joni: Right. Like on that same thing, on determination, you really have to just build your own stuff up. Like I didn't study graphic design, you know? Like, I went to Berkeley, and I started off in Public Health and Art, but I always, like, knew within that path that I wanted to go into design, like at that point, I knew I wanted to go to industrial or product and kind of just because the field is so vast and so, you know, there's so many different paths of design that you could you can follow through like you kind of really have to find, you know, that lane that type that sparks joy for you.

Katty: Exactly. So you are an Angeleno through and through born and raised. But you decided to move away for school, and then you came back, you couldn’t stay away?

Joni: Yeah, I know. Well I didn't go that far. I just went up to Northern California. But I thought I wanted to, like spend my days up there in San Francisco, but I just I came back here, and I absolutely love it. And I'm never looking back.

Katty: It's such an amazing city with so much business growth and opportunities.

Joni: Yeah, I do. That's what I love about this city. It's like, really, whatever you want to find, you could find it. And whatever you want to do, you could do it. Like, you could carve out your own space here and just keep grinding and like, find what you need to find, you know, but it just takes some work. Other places like New York, you know, you walk down the street and life just happens to you. But here, you really have to just, you just find your own path, which is great.

Katty: Yeah, exactly. And I know that you get a lot of inspiration from your surroundings and from nature and travel. How does the city of LA teach you? What does the city inspire you to do?

Joni: Well, I mean, kind of on that same path, where you really have to kind of dig a little bit. Like on the surface LA is really, you know, kind of intimidating. It's huge. Like, it's not an easy place for like, for newcomers. It's not completely, you know, warm and fuzzy and inviting, like you kind of like you do have to do a little digging. But once you do find that, that thing that like really, you know, inspires you. Like it's out there. You just have to do a little digging. And that's why I love it here so much. Because, you know, there's there's so much individuality here. And that, inspires me too because so many people are able to wave that like, freak flag like you just do whatever it is you and that's fine.

Katty: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's so true. I think I have friends who visit who don't live here. And I think they're always inspired and in awe of how there's just so many different characters and you know, passion, colors, and this city is just so full of everything, it makes it beautiful.

Joni: Well, that and people think that LA has no culture, which I think is hilarious because there's so many different -- I mean, I guess maybe it has an identity crisis because there are so many different cultures packed into like, one small space, but yeah. But I mean, there's, there's really like a lot out there. You just gotta find it.

Katty: But I think we've had a Renaissance. But I think what's -- it's such an exciting time to be in LA right now. Yeah, you know, food and architecture and museums and I mean, there's just so much to do on a daily basis.

Joni: It's so much and new things are happening all the time. Like Downtown LA is changing every time I go out, like every week, that's like a different place.

Katty: Yeah, yeah. So true.

Joni: I’m just really fan. I mean, like, I grew up here. So to see like, how many, you know, personalities it's gone through.

Katty: I know you're working full time currently as a UI UX designer at a startup. But you also do quite a bit of freelance work on the side. How do you go about marketing yourself? And what can you share with somebody just starting out in their path, about marketing themselves, and just kind of staying the course?

Joni: You know, when I was starting out, I did a lot of like, like a lot of cold calling, and just being like reaching out to people. And like I wanted to, at that point, when I first started I worked a lot with-- I was really into health and wellness at that point. And so I wanted to work with health and wellness coaches. So I like went on all the forums and Facebook chats and whatever, and reached out to people to do their personal branding. So I mean, you know, the more that you just talk to strangers, I think will lead you down to Interesting paths, definitely. But also, you know, paths that lead you to the next place. So, just not afraid to like, make some noise, I think, is what helped me start out.

Katty: Well you’re definitely not the shy type.

Joni: Not anymore. But I think it's because I did a lot of that a while ago.

Katty: So you are your own marketing engine?

Joni: Well, yeah, you kind of have to be when you know, you're own business like you have to just get out there and talk to people and, you know, create a community and learn from other designers. And that always leads to other things like a lot, like in the beginning too a lot of the other designers that I would, you know, work with, like on a freelance gig or agency or whatever. Like, if there was something that they didn't have time to do, they would pass on to me. So like, and then those clients will lead to other ones. So it's kind of just one of those ripple effects. You know, that once you just get in there, like, it just kind of snowballs from there.

Katty: Yeah, yeah. Good. Do you also do a lot of social media for marketing your businesses or is it more traditional? Kind of just knocking on doors and who you know?

Joni: Yeah, it's, for me, it's just like a network kind of thing. Like, I don't really, I don't market on social media or anything for like, my personal stuff. Like, I kind of just use that, you know, just that those platforms just to keep our personal stuff. Yeah. But yeah, I mean…

Katty: Nice. All right, good. And I know that you have plenty of other avenues to unleash your creativity. I know cooking, and food is one way that you do it.

Joni: Yeah. So I mean, that's, that stuff is so much fun. Like, you know, I love to bake. And like, there was a time where I had this Baking Company with a friend who was a florist and, you know, we did a bunch of events, and we would do gifts and stuff like that. And that was really fun. But since then, I've just kind of decided to keep those hobbies, as hobbies, you know?

Katty: Okay. So your single focus is on your creativity.

Joni: Yeah, but all the baking and all that stuff are like more so for the downtime when I need to like decompress from the day to day.

Katty: Yeah. The Zen of it versus the work of it.

Joni: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Katty: Part of your mindfulness practice, I guess.

Joni: Yeah, it really is. It really is like, it helps to just switch gears and do something different. But that's still creative, you know, like, to still thrash that part of the brain, but in a different way. Well, you inspired me yesterday, after we did our talk that no one's going to hear since we had audio issues. I went and cooked a brand new recipe that I have never done before.

Katty: I know you are a big traveler. So what is -- what's your favorite place that you've ever been to?

Joni: Oh, man, I mean, all they're all so special in different ways. But I really did love my time in Nepal. Like, I feel like the, the people there were just so beautiful and welcoming. And the culture is just so just, you know, be just beautiful. I don't even know how to explain it. But like I stayed at --, I had a homestay and they were just so welcoming to me, and very generous and sweet. And, you know, it's very, you know, low income, but they have, they're so wealthy and many different ways, which is really inspiring, because, you know, here we're working on a totally different framework where we just want more and more and more, but like, they're happy with what they have, you know, so it's really, really inspiring to see a lifestyle, which it's not what you having what you want, but wanting what you have, you know?

Katty: Yeah. Can you -- did you bring some of that back with you? Can you stay in that mindfulness? In that present state?

Joni: I mean it's hard, right? It's hard when we're doing what we do every day. Like, I mean, to have had that experience and to recall that, you know, and, like, kind of just be able to zoom out and be like, you know, there's, there are so many ways to do life, right, like so many different avenues and, you know, lifestyles to choose, and the way that we work here, it's completely different than the way that many other people work in the world. You know, so like to just be conscious of that and know that there are so many ways to do it. So like, you don't have to be pushing all the time. Like it's okay to slow down and just relax and like, clear some stuff off your plate. Instead of just like keep adding things on, you know?

Katty: Yeah. Yeah, I'm trying to practice just being present more and just gonna just take in my surroundings and not be on this auto, you know, this autopilot.

Joni: Yeah, I mean, but it's hard, right? It's, like, that's funny, because that's the thing that we have to work on to, like, practice to, to be chill. Right? You can't just like, enjoy, you know, eating a sandwich. You have to eat the sandwich, and also think about, like the 20 other things you have to do that day, you know, like, you just, it's, it's kind of crazy. Because if your mind just wants to keep busy, but like, once you clear that out, and you know, whether it's through meditation, or just being mindful whenever you're doing whatever you're doing. It's like, the benefits are like is so immense, right?

Katty: Yeah, yeah. It's so true. It's funny you say that, because someone had mentioned mindfulness eating. Oh, and so where you would like take a bite and you go, “hmm that's a tomato. Hmm what a great avocado”.

Joni: Yeah. Which sounds crazy, right? But it's like, it really does change the whole experience. Like I did this whole silent meditation thing, a couple years ago in Thailand, and I got to do this whole, like, like eating prayer before we did it. Before we had lunch before we had breakfast, or we didn't have breakfast, before we had dinner. And, and it totally changes the whole experience, because you're really just there, you're just there with the food in front of you, and nothing else matters, you know, which is so like-- it's crazy to like just whittle it down to that act. But like, how often you're eating and you're always watching something, or you're, you know, you're talking or thinking about a million other things? Like, it's just it doesn't have to be like that, you know, like hectic in your head like…

Katty: Yeah, yeah. Hectic in your head. That's a great statement. You know, it may not look hectic around you, but if it’s hectic in your head, then it’s hectic.

Joni: And the thing is, like, nobody knows that, it's like what's going on in there. It's just you. So like, really, you're just creating, you're creating all this noise and all this, like, you know, chaos?

Katty: Yeah, and what happens to you from a creative standpoint, when you have that chaos and that noise in your head?

Joni: Well, I feel like usually when that happens, and I feel like insane inside. Like, my work suffers, because I'm not in the work, right? Like, I'm like, in a million other places. Like, I'm not just focusing on, you know, whatever job at hand like-- so it takes me longer to like, churn out or like, find, like the correct, or the best solution, you know? Because I'm thinking about a million other things, but when you're present, and when you're just in that project, or you know, in that---, trying to find that one solution to one problem, then you're so much like --your productivity increases exponentially, right? Because you're just there. Doing this one thing at this one time, which is so hard. To get there in the first place, right?

Katty: How do you bring that mindfulness practice to work?

Joni: Well, I mean, I have like a morning routine that includes meditation, and you know, moving my body, I like to exercise and get a little sweaty and stuff and that kind of just like, you know, carries out the kinks. And, you know, I like, like to dance party and whatever, like, break up the day with a little like, body movement. Like, I just feel like, sometimes you just gotta like, shake it out, you know. Like, once you get the crazies out, physically, mentally it also, permeates you know, getting that just access bullshit, like layer, just skimming the fat off and just being able to, like, be present and get into the work. Like, it really just helps like to shake it out sometimes. And be a little crazy, because like, once you're crazy, like, and you get that out -- because everyone's nuts and you get off the crazy. And then you could just do the work, get the work done. Because you’re not afraid of being weird, because you just are. Everyone is and it's fine. Like, the more that you are afraid of like what other people think about you like, the more I think your work suffers, because you're like, oh, like the client only wants like this. And I know that, you know, like, this is too crazy or whatever. As a creative person, you want to test the boundaries, right? You want your work to reflect your creativity. So once you just push through that barrier of like, not caring what other -- if other people are going to judge your work, then I think your work really will bloom, blossom after that.

Katty: Oh my gosh, that's such words of wisdom especially I think for people who are just starting out in their path. You know kind of mistaking the feedback on the work with the feedback on themselves, right?

Joni: Yeah, totally. Yeah. Which is like, I mean, as a new designer, really just as a, as a younger person, you always take things really personally, especially about your work. And definitely as creatives like we do that, because it is such a personal process creating, you know, a design or anything like it's, you know, it's your baby, it's your child. So like, when someone critiques that, you kind of immediately take that as a personal affront, but it's really not. It's just work, you know, like, and once you're able to, like, you know, cut yourself off from the personal attack cause it's like you once you're able to disengage that and just listen to the person, whoever's critiquing your work and listen objectively and hear them out. Like your work also will reflect that and it will grow as a designer.

Joni: But see, this is the thing too it's like a process, right? And if it's not perfect, it's fine. Like we've talked about that a lot to you know, like, you can't just release something because it's not perfect or give it to you know, your client or who will give it to your boss, because you feel like it should be better. But like, it's never going to be perfect, right? So just get it out there. And like once you just start going and you lose that fear, like the better your work will be because you're just like, “I need like -- I'm going to get out there. I want the feedback. Like I want to get better, like, just kind of get the momentum going.” Right.

Katty: So from your design kind of your iteration process, maybe you could talk a little bit about that, like, at what point do you feel that it's good enough that I can show it and get some feedback?

Joni: Well, as a perfectionist, I like always never feel like it's good enough. But you have to just forget that right?

Katty: You work through it.

Joni: Yeah you work through it. Yeah, you're like you hear that voice, saying that it should be better. And then you're like, you know what, it's fine. I'm going to send it off and see what they say, because they will tell me how to make it better. You know, like, you just have to like, you see how your mind will go to that place to make you stop? And then you're like, Well, why, why do I feel like I should stop? Like, should I stop? Like, no, it's just me telling myself that it's not good enough. So you just, I just have to power through it usually when that voice turns on, because I know it's just a voice, right? So, I mean, sometimes, you know, you just have to like close your laptop, and just come back into the next day. When you're feeling frustrated. You feel like you've you've tried all the iterations that you possibly could and you move on.

Katty: You dance all the dance moves that you can.

Joni: You dance all the dance moves you can. Always more dance moves. Yeah, yeah. You know, in the morning, you come back and you see what you've done. And you're like, Okay, you know, it's always, it's never as bad as it was before. You know what I mean? Like, you're, I mean, at least for me, I'm like, I'm always my hardest critic. So I look at it in the morning and I'm like, “Well, it's not bad. Like, let's see what they say”. You know, so you kind of just have to listen to yourself with caution.

Katty: Yeah, that's good. Listen to yourself with caution. And know yourself, right? I think that's part of it, as well as if you're feeling solid with yourself at the core. Yeah, you can trust yourself.

Joni: For sure. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And but know also that, like, you know, you've been hired for a reason, like you are totally capable, like, you know, like, a lot of the times, you know, at least in the field that I'm in like doing a lot of UI / UX stuff. Like there's not a right answer for everything. There's, there's like a better answer. And there's a like, you know, a lesser answer, but that there-- there's a lot of like, a million ways to do the same thing. You know, you could go on and on and on, like deciding where to put a button. But it doesn't mean like, one is like, there's a right answer. Right? Like, you could always search for the right answer. But like, you have to stop at some point. Because there's not always like a right answer. And a lot of the things that we do as designers. It's subjective, right? And it's all about perspective and, you know, like, just taste levels, where people like, what, what people prefer. So, yeah, that’s the thing like knowing that there's never a right answer to what we do, which is frustrating, but also great, because we're able to like, mold that ourselves, right?

Katty: Yeah, and it's limitless, right?

Joni: Yeah, yeah. That part.

Katty: And I think the space that you're in, you know, it's a new space. Right? We're constantly innovating. We're constantly pushing the boundaries and it may not be an answer, because it hasn't been done before. So you're in that process of discovering it.Yeah, exactly.

Joni: Yeah. Which is awesome. It's, it's fun to be like, that's why I love this field, because it's always changing, and there's always going to be something new and a new technology to figure out and a new program to, you know, try and it's just, it's like constantly room--there's constantly room for growth, right? Which, which is exciting, and awesome.

Katty: Would you share a little bit about the UI / UX space, just in case, we have listeners who are not too familiar with it?

Joni: Yeah, of course. So, I work at a startup that we have an app and also like an admin tool, and like a client dashboard. So there's a lot of like backend designs to do for in terms of like, you know, how to upload images and, you know, where we have -- so I work with drones and drone imagery and data. And so pilots, drone pilots will use our app to fly and collect the imagery and data. So there's a lot of, you know, integrations with, like drone technology and the software capable of capturing that imagery and data. So there's a lot of, you know, technological, like choices to make and integration to understand and platforms to know, which is awesome. So like, it's all about creating something that's usable for the user, for drone pilots, I guess, in our case. So getting into the mind of those people and people that are using our platform, and figuring out how they're going to best, you know, what's the best way to enhance that user experience? Yeah. It's fun.

Katty: I remember you saying the other when we were talking. You were saying the other day, just in terms of working with product, you said, you know, every time you pick up your phone, you realize that there's a person behind that. That someone did that, someone put those buttons there….

Joni: Yeah, there's a designer behind everything, right. There's a designer behind the computer that you made there’s a designer behind the website that you use, there's you know -- designers create this landscape and the way that we experience the world and like, it's a really powerful experience. It’s a really powerful platform to be on, you know, like, when we kind of take it for granted, you know, yeah, like, it's kind of like a weird, creating this experience for someone else to use. And to not to take that for granted, you know?

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You can find Anna’s work on instagram @annabondocartist and her website http://www.annabondocartist.com/

Anna Bondoc is a Los Angeles based artist, writer, and educator who was originally born in the Philippines, raised in Ohio, and now resides here in LA with her husband, her daughter, and their dog penny. In 2005, Anna started her business on the Bondoc designs, creating just very intricate layered paper cuts for fine art creations, stationery, and creating patterns. Her work has been featured in Apartment Therapy, Traditional Home, as well as Cloth Paper & Scissors, and in 2012 she created a how to book called Simply Paper Cutting. However, since then she has changed gears and she is now working with Pen and Ink, as well as with Alcohol Inks, and I'm curious to talk to her today to find out what else is on the horizon. Ever since I've known her she has been curious, been innovative, and always trying her hand at different things. So I'm really excited to welcome her to the podcast today and learn what else is on the horizon.

Katty: As long as I've known you, you have been dabbling in some sort of a creative endeavor, which is so interesting for me and looking in it's always been so exciting to see all the various mediums that you're touching. I'd love to tell our audience really talk about how you got your start and, you know, where you are today.

Anna: Sure. Well, I love that you use the word dabbling because it sort of characterizes how I approach creativity. And if you ask me how I got my start it, I often have no answer because I have never until recently, and I'm now 50, I hadn't considered myself an artist in professional terms, until I don't know the last five or so years. I know it sounds late but I think because I have always been motivated by almost being a beginner, and being a little bit out of my element and trying a new medium. It's taken me a long time to realize that is my primary motivation and it is not a singular, you know, painting, drawing, graphic design. I've just followed my curiosity, to a large extent, and that's led me to, every medium from Paper Cutting to Pen and Ink drawing to photography graphic design and it's taken me a while to reconcile myself with that because dabbling is not something that I was brought up to do. I was brought up to focus and to choose and so I never really committed to one type of art or creativity, and that's just the way I am, even though I have tried to commit to one thing or another.

So there's been actually no particular start, but where I find myself now is an interesting time that you come to me because I finally had my first solo show of art, and had a business which didn't do so well under my belt, but I feel like an artist and they have not gone back to teaching which is what I did in between doing creative projects.

But I had a bit of sort of fallow period at the start of January where I had this great show and everybody said to me, “oh you're going to keep drawing, or your going to keep doing your paintings, you have momentum now you've had sales.” And to be honest, when I sat down with myself I just was not feeling it for those things anymore, and they felt like finite experiences as though I'd written a book and I wasn't going to rewrite that book. So where you find me now is, after a period of frantic creative block, I finally have found some momentum in a project that combines my writing, drawing, and design skills, and it has no particular form, so I'm a little bit insecure about it. But it's it's one of those times where, you know, creative people tell you all the time. “I don't know where this one came from, but it's here and now I'm either going to work with it, or I'm not” and I decided that I want to work with this one. Even though I'm not exactly sure where it's headed.

Katty: Okay. You letting the creative process guide you...

Anna: Yes, and you know, usually I don't let that happen until I found a medium and sort of played with like “oh my Pen and Ink drawings, here I'm going to learn how to use this medium, and then I'm going to practice with it I’m going to study and I'm going to research.” This one is much more unruly than that, and it's different for me, but I think, I think it's my age where I just kind of say “you know what, creativity, isn't like a horse that you harness.” I don't want to romanticize it because I don't necessarily believe in the muse or whatever, but I do think that there's a reason that creative people talk about muses as being something outside of themselves that decides to visit. This one feels like a combination of a lot of things that I'm interested in, and it's nudging me to put it all together.

Katty: Fabulous. Well, you mentioned something early on in the conversation about being a beginner, it kind of made me think of that beginner's mindset, which is filled with curiosity. And, this sounds like that to me. You know, the curiosity of where it's going to go and you're just allowing that flow.

Anna: Allowing is a big thing for an artist, right, like for anybody. And I happen to also be a control freak. So it's a...this particular one began with a sudden urge, and curiosity to investigate typography and fonts. It kind of appeared one day, to me, I felt like drawing but I didn't feel like drawing the way I had done abstractly for many years actually in my that resulted in my last show that you saw. But this one I had the urge to make forms, but not people. I don't like to necessarily render objects or trees or things like that. I'm sort of more of an abstract thinker, but I kind of resisted this because I thought, “Well, I'm not a typography designer. I don't know why I want to do this it's unclear, this is weird.” But sometimes it just keeps asserting itself and I think that the only issue I have with beginners energy, it is a wonderful playful, curiosity driven as you said energy. But the problem with people like me is that when you get to the point where it feels a little boring, or you can easily abandon projects. When it's no longer that first blush, of ooh this is exciting, I don't know how to do this, sometimes I've dropped projects that I should have probably just stuck through in some particular way like made it fresh or beginning or added something to it so I'm learning how to play with that.

Katty: Okay. Because I remember you saying that when you feel that you're not learning or growing anymore you, maybe you just switch mediums. So how to -- what I'm hearing is trying to figure out a way to harness that and see it through versus switching partially, right?

Anna: Yes. I think that what I'm doing right now and we're talking about like two days. Of this realization is that the current project that I'm working on, let's describe it as a combination of trying to use charts and graphs and visualizing the data of my life, and trying to apply almost mathematical chart making skills to things that are very esoteric and abstract and like midlife crisis oriented. So it's very chaotic but I think that what I have decided to do with this project is to conceptualize it as a bunch of different tasks which include, drafting, writing, sketching, doing typography, maybe a little photography and so what I've structured is almost like I'm a person who went to Montessori and in Montessori, they say, rather than following first math then science, kids have a period in which they can choose okay I'm really drawn to this. Right now I'm feeling it, I'm really drawn to this task right now, and so what that allows me to do is from day to day instead of grinding it out and say, I'm going to finish the spread today or this sketch. I really look at it and I say okay where's the energy good today? And maybe sometimes I literally only work on it for 20 minutes, and then I feel a little bit of stuckness or meh, it’s not happening, and then I can jump and look at some books that I've bought to help me, inspire me to design a certain way.

So that I feel that beginner energy from day to day, and I'm really following my pleasure and my joy and my playfulness rather than employing this part of me that's more grim determination, which is sometimes necessary. You know, we have to use discipline at one time or another but I think for me, that's a buzzkill. I've just considered myself one of those people like “well we have to get through the buzzkill part.” It’s kind of like, people who want to go exercise or do something that’s not natural to them, and if they don't find a source of pleasure in it, you're not going to continue with that habit. So I'm become a believer in listening to the voice inside that says, “This is what wants to happen this morning or this afternoon”, and I just chunk it out. I just chunk out my tasks rather than thinking about it as some long march to work.

Katty: Got it. Because I know you've spoken in the past about really cultivating that creative practice. How does this fit in with that? Is it just as cultivating the creative practice but in shorter bursts, or whenever it happens to strike?

Anna: That is a really good question, I think it's the shorter bursts concept and being okay with it. I think that there are many books out there about creativity, or business or whatever and those are all incredibly helpful. But there comes a point at which you need to really personalize and tailor the information that you're taking in about how to work, how to best be creative and, it's very easy to slip into the mode, for me anyway of, “oh, look how so and so is doing it. Look how they got it done. Why am I not doing it that way?” And it's easy to reframe short bursts which I have done as dilettantism, a jack of all trades, master of none, can't finish a project, you know, undisciplined...and at a certain point, you just have to look at the nature of the work and say, “Is this work good? Is it worth continuing? Is the way I'm working in concert with the work as it wants to be made too?” Because not every project is the same either, like writing for me I have to say, does not come as naturally as drawing or sketching and it's not as pleasurable.

Katty: You started out your path as a writer.

Anna: Yeah, that is true, I would say that my entry point to creativity, in terms of academic studies and my degree was an English major. I learned how to be creative through the written word, but in fact I think that this latest project that I'm working on started out as me wanting to tell some wisdom and stories and anecdotes from my life, but I became impatient with linear thinking and words require linear, you know, first the subject and the verb then the next thing and the descriptor. But what I started doing was, as I was journaling to try to write about these things, it's just sort of naturally happened I'm like I'm just going to try to stretch what I mean. And let me see if I can create an image that conveys the same thing that I'm trying to say, in a way that pleases me is more naturally pleasing to me, which is to say graphically and drawn, and as we all know, that's why road signs are not all written in paragraphs, the image is much more sort of holistically digested. So, what is pleasing to me now is, I'll write almost a caption to the image and then the two are conjoined, and work in concert, almost like you know, the children's book writer will do is, the image has its weigh, the writing has its weight, and they work to inform each other and that has been much more pleasurable to me to write than just straight paragraphs and essays.

Katty: Now, is the typography that you're doing is this pen to paper? Is this digital was the medium that you're using there?

Anna: I’m a strange person in that I can't seem to make designs on the computer at all. I think that one of my goals in life had been in my 20s to be a graphic designer because it does merge word, and the written word and images. I love that interaction, but I could never make myself enjoy-- It felt almost like I was wearing gloves or there was a glass wall between me and my art, and I really have been drawing all my fonts even if they are, you know, German Gothic black letter thick fonts I really enjoy the process of hand lettering with a pencil, for now. And the pencil keeps me really loose and less worried about outcome. I noticed that when I try to shift right now to pen, or do a finished drawing, it's another buzzkill where it keeps me tight, so I have to work pretty hard to just retain that an original freshness to my to my ideas at this point.

Katty: I'd like to see it when you're at that stage to show it.

Anna: I think more and more because of Instagram and because of social media, there is, a movement for artists to show their process. I love looking at people's Instagram stories where you track backwards, where the iterative processes of creativity. I love that. I think people are really like using it, I think, artists, when I was in an artist mastermind group we talked about being able to convey the value of our art through price, you know so hard to price your art, but when people understand your story and then it's not just this you know pricing by size and inches but they really see that you've made small sketches or you've done this or thrown this out. People, I think they will buy your story, ultimately.

Katty: Yeah, absolutely and it's you know it's an iterative process. If you know i don't think art necessarily is easy to look at a piece of paper or a piece of art and say, “Oh, great.” But, you know, the months or the years that it may have taken to take into that place, and that's just the value of thinking.

Anna: Well, yes and I was thinking the other day that the disadvantage that artists have, in some ways is that, I think your average person who doesn't necessarily create a lot, they have this notion that the time it takes for them to consume the art is comparable to the amount of time that it took to produce that art. I watch people stand in front of paintings, and they breeze past and it kind of pains me, you know, not mine even other people's. Like I was at LACMA just watching people breeze past, snap a photograph of themselves in front of a drawing. I don't have a problem with that per se, but I read somewhere I wish I could remember where it was a challenge to stand in front of an artwork for, I don't know 15 minutes, and that's not very long but the, what you encounter, and what you're forced to encounter in 15 minutes in front of one work of art, you realize how much you breeze past, and you don't take it.

Katty: That happens for some of the artists that we work with on more commercial work, design work, where, you know, when a client is looking for an estimate,it's really necessary to think about the hours to actually produce the work and forgetting about the hours that it's going to take just to conceptualize it.

Anna: Yes, and also on, I mean because I do more fine art, I have done more fine art work. Recently, it is the -- I mean it sounds so esoteric but it's really the courage to kind of put your life story, your life values, something you have to say into that. That is, that's just living. You can't, you can't put a quantity or, qualitative judgment on wisdom that one is gleaned about nature or about, aging, or parenting or whatever that's the poetry and that's what makes it hard to be an artist, because you shouldn't expect that everybody would understand that, and yet if you're trying to make a living doing it and applying your visual talents to a commercial realm, you kind of have to be understanding that people aren't going to be interpreting your work the way that you what you brought to it emotionally.

Katty: Yeah, everybody looks at it through their own lens.

Anna: That's right. You have to let it go. But the paycheck may not reflect what you put in.

Katty: It’s true. I knew in your previous work that I'm familiar with your patterns and your dots and you murmurations nature has been a huge source of inspiration for you. Where is the inspiration coming for the new work that you're doing?

Anna: Oh, I'm going to laugh at myself now because I don't even want to tell you, and I'll tell you why because I am sort of -- I'm outing myself now. I'm a secret hoarder of self-help books. And, and I'll tell you, I'll just out myself again like I have them, and they're all facing the spines are all facing the other way underneath my desk, and I don't know why I should be so embarrassed about this but they are so, I mean, some of them have changed my life, right?

Like some of the especially the Buddhist, the Buddhist so let's not even call them self help books, but they're very much about inquiry. Yeah, why are we here? What makes a meaningful life? And I have just made that shift in my life, in the last probably the last decade, especially. I have been trying to find a way to, I don't know, express my interest in them and generate something from within me and then interpret that visually for a lot of years. Or not visually at first, but actually through written stuff and it all sounded so, overly earnest, almost cultish, very esoteric, and believe me like I read a lot of this stuff and I love it. But I've been trying to find a way to express it in a way that I feel has some levity and humor and beauty and anecdotal, maybe a little self-deprecation. I am just one of those people who is an over-thinker, I'm philosophical by nature, and I've been trying to find a way to bring it down to earth because I do have a very skeptical cynical side of me too. And so I think that I'm trying to make that kind of important meaningful wisdom, accessible in a visual form. That's my current project.

Katty: It's interesting you use the word wisdom because that's the word that was playing around in my head, as you were talking. Whether it's just coming to this, you know, time in your life. But that's the word that's coming to me.

Anna: Well, I appreciate that. And I and I will say too, I think some of that wisdom has been a hard one, because of my particular experience growing up as an artistically minded a philosophically minded creative person in a family of Asian immigrant parents. I'm not trying to stereotype but there is a particular expectation that you be pragmatic about your life and how you make money and what you study. My creativity was amusing to my parents, but it was not, it was not something that they were going to support as a way of living, and so I think, ironically, like, I think my commitment to this project this latest project and to finding wisdom is kind of asserting that you know artists and creative people have a particular path. And particular obstacles that they have to overcome and those coupled with that of immigrant parents who say to you, you know, just go, it's not boring but like just go be a doctor, an engineer and then you can do the stuff on the side. This has been my way of saying, you know what, I've tried that way, it didn't work, and now I really value, I value my creative talents, I value the way that I express them, and I do believe that there's wisdom for me to share, not so much like, “Oh, I know better and I'm going to tell you how to do it”, but I find the most satisfying encounters with my artwork is when people say to me, “I so connect with you about this. I felt alone in this and now I don't.” And I think that to me is why I've turned to the books why turned to certain artworks and I guess my hope has always been that I could provide a piece of art or writing that can make somebody else feel a sense of relief in that regard too.

Katty: What would you say to someone who is maybe in this searching mode, early in their career? If some of the books that maybe have really helped you and you mentioned there was a couple that really changed your life. Are there any recommendations that you could share with the audience?

Anna: Sure. Well, for me personally and this is a little esoteric but Pema Chodron, any of her books. The ones that I'm thinking right off the top is The Places That Scare You and When Things Fall Apart. It sounds very dire but it's not. She just reset my thinking as many Buddhists will, that we spend so much time segregating what we perceive to be good and bad things that happened to us in life and the times to -- we spent a lot of energy segregating. “I don't want this, I want this. This will be good for my career, this is not. This is great art, this is crappy art that I've made or whatever.” And I think when you get to a certain level of maturity, you start to accept that it's all mixed in, that it's all a portal to wisdom in some way or another if you have the right frame of mind towards it and just certain patience and acceptance. And that doesn't mean rolling over and play dead but it just means don't spend your energy, pushing back, all the things that you think are going to be bad for you because some of the most frustrating things that have happened to me as an artist and creative person have led me to some real breakthroughs and that's just the truth of it. And then there's another book, which is radically different in tone, but kind of soothes the cynic and the hard ass in me, is Steven Pressfield’s book, The War of Art. And it is brief, and it's cogent, and he basically in his own way says, “Stop whining don't spend your energy on that all artists are going to encounter obstacles. Get up do the work.” And the way I interpreted his work because it's a little bit harsh is if I had to summarize it for myself and how I metabolized his writing was, every piece of art that you do for me, every drawing is a study for the next drawing, everything. And so, yes there is a time at which you have to say, “Okay, I'm going to make this finished piece of art that I want to sell or that my client wants, or whatever.” But in order to relieve yourself of that stiffness and anxiety and putting too much weight on yourself or the project, you really have to face the truth that every piece you make is your education for the next attempt. It’s all an attempt, it's all an experiment and stop thinking about it too hard and just make the thing, and be you know truthful about whether it's worthy of presenting to the world and I would, I don't know, in the last series I did my ink paintings, I would say, was the ratio of the ones I kept to not were one out of twelve. And that's okay, you know like, you can whine about the other eleven, and berate yourself or you can be grateful that you have the time and energy and talent to try to make these twelve, and you got one out of them. Great. That's kind of what I take from his book.

Katty: They're building blocks. Right? Yeah, one foot in front of the other. Well thank you for sharing those and surely thank you for sharing your wisdom. I think that, especially for someone who's starting out, and hasn't necessarily come into their own as they're listening to this podcast I think you're sharing a lot of nuggets of what you've gone through and have come out on the other side and recognizing why you're doing what you're doing, as well, just accepting the process.

Anna: Well, I would say too, and this is just something I've been thinking about this week to add to what you're summing up there is. It's all for me about reframing, not as a Pollyanna way but reframing as a creative act in and of itself. So, use your creativity on yourself and that is an act in an of itself, is to reconsider how you work, the methodologies, try things that are new if they don’t work.I mean these are all similar to the actual creative acts themselves, but you can apply that same creativity to your own emotional states, your own psychological states. It's all of a piece, nothing is separate. I mean I kind of think of it as like a creative ecosystem where it has to be healthy and sort of balanced for all the elements to work in a healthy way.

Katty: It’d be cause and effect in there so, absolutely.Because I know, you know, just in having known you over the years that innovating is very important to you and so it is just beautiful to see how all of that is coming together at this point.

Anna: Thank you, I appreciate that because it doesn't always feel like there's a through line. But I guess for creative people the through line is one's actual self. You have to honor that.

Katty: Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Artisan podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Artisan Creative, a staffing a recruitment firm specializing in creative, marketing, and digital talents. You can find us online at artisancreative.com or via social channels @artisancreative We look forward to connecting.

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Daniel Zimmerman, an LA-based digital marketer, took a year sabbatical and went on a 50 state search for the perfect artisanal ice cream!

In this quest, not only did he get to taste some spectacular ice cream, he also met some fantastic people along the way. Here he is today to talk about the lessons learned on this journey in pursuit of ice cream. Well, welcome, Daniel. So happy to have you here.

Daniel: Thank you for having me on.

Katty: So I know that you and my colleague Laura had spoken at length about your adventures recently, and I just found it fascinating and I wanted to continue our conversation. I think the audience will just find it really interesting to see the journey that you took, the decisions that you've made to take the sabbatical, and the lessons learned along the way. So I really appreciate you coming on and sharing that with us.

Daniel: Absolutely. If there's anything that you know, I could share with others that would help them along their way in their own journey, I would be more than happy to do it.

Katty: Fabulous. Well, to give some context to the audience, you took a year sabbatical, and you went on the pursuit of tasting ice cream in all 50 states?

Daniel: That is correct, yes.

Katty: So what inspired you?

Daniel: I've always had a love for ice cream. But more specifically then that, it was more like the fear of potential regret. This is, you know, everyone talks about, oh, I want to travel in my 20s I want to explore the world, I want to do all these things. But really, the idea of just always being talk and not actually following through scared me more than not doing it. Which I'm not kind of a strange way to think of it. And really, it was just something that I thought I was at that point in my life where I had some money saved up, you know, I didn't have any real responsibilities in terms of a mortgage, no kids. I still have my metabolism, so I can just eat loads of ice cream.

Katty: Lucky you!

Daniel: Yeah, so I had to do that while I was on the tail end of getting as much out of that metabolism as possible. Really it was just the perfect storm. And I just saw this golden opportunity and I was like, “yeah, you know, what I'm gonna follow through on this, you know, not just talk about it, but actually do it”. So that was kind of the onset initial inspiration.

Katty: How long have you had this idea that one day, I'm going to do this ice cream adventure?

Daniel: So it's always one of those like vague ideas. I never really put like a true concrete plan of going a road trip to all 50 states. It was more along the lines of you know, I've always had a love of ice cream. You know, like I had been eating like every day since a child. July is National ice cream month. So starting college, I would do this thing where every single day during the month of July, I’d try to find a different flavor of ice cream. And then like to eat it and write you know, a tiny review on it. And then like, over the years, they just, the reviews got longer flavors got crazier. And like, eventually people like you know, like, here are some other crazy things that you should do. So they would start sending me links. Someone sent me an ice cream cleanse, which is like a juice cleanse things, but with ice cream. You just eat ice cream for three days straight, and it's like a special vegan ice cream, but you like cleanse your body of toxins, and then you lose weight. So I did it and I lost three pounds in three days, and it was this crazy thing. And then like it just kind of kept snowballing where people would send the other ice cream challenges around the country. And so I just had this ongoing list of like, cool places around the country that you know, like I got to visit. And then from there, it just kind of snowballed into like well, you know, I have like at least two dozen states I need to visit now. So like why don't I just knock out all 50 and I'm sure there's like I supposed best ice cream in every single state. And sure enough, there's all these different publications that have you know, from you know, Scoop Adventures to BuzzFeed, Thrillist to you know, I think PBS had one too, like the best ice cream every state. So I literally just compiled all those lists together and then giant excel sheet. And then that was kind of like my road map of all the places I need to hit up.

Katty: I love it. So you took your experience with data!

Daniel: Definitely. I did some excel hotkeys there to compile lists.

Katty: That is funny. Well, it's clearly very strategic in terms of how you attack this plan.

Daniel: Thank you. Yeah, like I said, it was something that, you know, there was a kernel that someone else sent into me, and then that somehow, you know, blossomed into something else entirely. So it's not always, you know, to have the crystal clear vision is to be able to adapt along the way and let a small idea grow into something bigger.

Katty: Nice. Love it. Love it. Of course, I'm sure everybody asks you all the time, what's your favorite flavor? What’s your favorite place that you went to.

Daniel: Yes, yes. As far as favorite flavor goes, I get asked that a lot. And my answer is always the same where I say there's no such thing. There are a time and a place for every flavor. So that's like, my canned response. But you know, and everyone hates that answer because you know, you're supposed to have a favorite. But if I think about it more, you know, cognitively I think food tastes and in general, and this very much applies to ice cream, that it's not always just about objective criteria of you know, this is like the best amount of milk fat ratio, this is, you know, supposed to have so many parts per million of you know, like a Madagascar vanilla bean whatever. I think it's very much a social experience where you know, eating with a friend, you know, you eat it at a time, like on a hot summer day, you're eating it in all these other situations that can impact how you taste it. So, it is so subjective, I don't think there is an objective criterion of what can constitute as like a single greatest flavor. Which is something that I kind of knew beforehand, but at the same time, you know, I was like, maybe I can be proven wrong, like maybe there is truly something that's like, you know, transcendent will reach Nirvana or something. Maybe, but that wasn't the case.

Katty: But it's also one of those foods that it triggers memories. You know, if you remember your childhood. Yeah, this is just comfort food, if you will.

Daniel: Oh, 100 percent. You know what, I've been talking to other people about this, and I ask them about some of their most cherished times eat ice cream, they usually like recall, sometime when they eat with their grandparent, who's no longer here. You know, they went up to like a farm by their place in some rural area, and they say it was the best ice cream they ever had. And then, you know, I'm where I was like, I'm kind of wondering like, is it truly that great? Or is it the memory of, you know, spending with a loved one that is also what's impacting, you know, some of those rosy tinted memories they have.

Katty: It’d be interesting to see, if you, I don't know, if you have plans of taking your ice cream adventure overseas, and have a comparison, right?

Daniel: Oh, absolutely. Like, so I had those ideas like the second I finished the 50th state, or even beforehand, really, but like, similar to what I said beforehand. But the original goal was just to hit all 50. And I don't know necessarily that I would do the same intense traveling at that kind of breakneck speed that I did beforehand. But, you know, I definitely have plans to try ice cream all over the world, because throughout this whole journey, like other people will reach out to me like, “hey, yeah, I stumbled across, you know, your social media or something like that from a picture of ice cream that you took. And I was like, we have good ice cream, or, you know, gelato or custard or whatever, in like all these other different countries.” So I have invitations from India, to Australia, to Japan to you know, England and beyond, to try all these different ice cream. So the list is always growing.

Katty: Wow, fantastic. Yeah, I'm originally from Iran. And we have some really good Persian ice cream here in LA. I don't know if you've tried it or not. But I'll send you a couple links of some places to go.

Daniel: Oh, my gosh, I mean, specifically, in Los Angeles, you know, Sapphire and Rose ice cream I love.

Katty: Yes. that's the one.

Daniel: Yes. You know, I used to live a couple of blocks from that ice cream shop. So I've been there a handful of times.

Katty: Good, good, good. Good. Yeah. They make it certainly makes it very unique. For me, obviously, it reminds me of my childhood.

Daniel: Absolutely. And, you know, there's, I mean, I do like this the sharing of cultures too, you know, you can find it. It's not just in Los Angeles, where is the only place you can Persian ice cream, but, you know, just this idea of a different take on it. And that's something that I think should be celebrated also, as far as, like, pushing the boundaries and not just staying within the comfort zone of you know, your chocolate, vanilla strawberry.

Katty: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And then again here, in LA, we have such a variety of Mexican ice creams, which are absolutely delicious.

Daniel: Absolutely. I was just gonna say like, it's surprisingly, where you think, like, such a vibrant, you know, Latino population, Southern California. And then also, like, I'm thinking about, like, other Latino populations around the country, like Miami, Florida has, you know, a lot of good Cuban ice creams, and, you know, also like some inspiration from, like, Latin American like South America to like with some of their guava with this type of like, almost like a biscuit cookie. They're called Maria cookies, but it's kind of like a biscuit cookie. But it's huge in those areas. And when it was brought to Miami, like it became the number one seller of, at this one ice cream shop in Miami. So, it's crazy how that it's literally, you know, like, exporting flavors to other areas and kind of expand the horizon. And then they perform really well, which is always, like, exciting to see.

Katty: Ice cream, is at the intersection of cultures and how it brings it all together.

Daniel: Absolutely, that that is a great way to phrase it. Just because in my personal experience, I haven't met a single person who doesn't like ice cream. I mean, I think even people that are lactose intolerant, they like the idea of ice cream, and they're just maybe a little sad that it doesn't agree with them, in their digestive tract.

Katty: Yeah. Or they have lactate pills to take so they can have ice cream.

Daniel: Yeah, they will suffer through it.

Katty: Yeah, there you go. So, I know that part of this journey that you've taken, because I know that you have an idea to write a book, it's really about the people and the cultures that you came into contact with. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Daniel: Absolutely. So when I first started the journey, you know, I had a fixed budget set aside for all my room board, ice cream, travel expenses, what have you. And then while traveling, I found out about this platform called Couchsurfing, where literally, it's an online community, you know, there's an app for it, and then you can pretty much search within a city and see if someone might be willing to let you sleep on the couch for free. And it's, it's an amazing thing, and it's not just about you know, getting a free place to stay. It's you know, about pretty much exactly what we were talking about, as far as that exchange of cultures and ideas and, you know, stories and just sharing moments with other people. And it's something that I didn't think of at all at the onset. But similarly, you know, when you kind of keep an open mind, there was like a seed that was planted, and that bloomed into something incredible. And just the idea of when I started, you know, just Couchsurfing staying with all these people, I try to learn, you know, things from their perspective, and it was just to say, life change, it would be an understatement, you know? Oh, absolutely, you know, it as far as I think, one, you know, your empathy just goes through the roof, because you realize, you know, we're all people, we kind of going outside your bubble comfort zone, you can take on new perspectives, you can learn, you can grow. There are so many different things that, you know, so many different by-products that come up from these types of travel stories and experiences. And so much so that, you know, like, there were there were times when you know, I would I try to talk about, like all the things that I learned along the way, sometimes there are, you know, I think there might be some more overarching things in terms of like hope of humanity, or, you know, like some other really big lofty ideals. And then sometimes, it's just a really cool story of how he'd know like, someone that they-- So one guy, he literally, Forrest Gump’d it and ran from Los Angeles to Miami, in like, 100 days, like, so that's like, over a marathon a day, pretty much. And so he just has a really cool story. And, you know, so I stayed with him and, and I learned about all the crazy things he's doing. And he's just a really interesting character. So yeah. So that's kind of, I'd say, some of their stories, and maybe how sometimes how they've changed my perspective on things is kind of what the book is trying to be about.

Katty: But how amazing, it’s almost serendipity here where you're doing a 50 states pursuit, and then you meet someone who's doing their own 50 state pursuit of something different. There you have that common denominator.

Daniel: Absolutely. It is interesting, too, when you just because I mean, within the 50 states, but just the city. So basically, when they're doing their own 50 standard ventures like for which are the cities that are overlapping? What are the ones that you know, may have a specialty in one area, but may not as much in another? So it's definitely interesting, and then we talked about, like, I don't know, sometimes in Couchsurfing at least, how, if there's a chance, “hey, we happened to have stayed and slept on the same couch pretty much, just by pure coincidence. And yeah. So, then there are those kinds of moments to that always just kind of fun or coincidences, I guess?

Katty: Yeah. So I know that you are very strategic, and you know, in your professional life, an account manager, and you look at data and all of that. Did you? Did you take that approach into deciding which whose couch you were going to be staying at?

Daniel: Yes, and less than yes. I mean, so I would say, it's not as much data more about just research in general. So basically, everyone on Couchsurfing, they fill out a profile, they talk about themselves, they have to, you know, in terms of -- you try to talk about some of your interests so that you might have like, common denominators things to talk about, what have you. So basically, I would say, I took some of the research approaches that I would do when I was an account manager with clients. And then, you know, tailor messages to like, outreach, like, “Hey, I noticed, you know, we both have the same favorite movie”, what have you. And then, you know, you kind of use that to bridge the gap when doing outreach. It is, in some ways, like sales a little bit. So you know, you can't just have, you know, it's not necessarily like an email blast, where you're getting it all out, I'd say it's closer to a one on one sales, where you really kind of want to tailor it to them to have the highest success rate. So there is some of that type of account management in as well.

Katty: Very relationship driven.

Daniel: Absolutely. And kind of through this, you know, as you get more experience you like you notice things that might be more effective and picking out as far as things that they've had interested in or places they've traveled to, or things that you can, like, how interesting that you get a higher response rate from then maybe someone might be slightly more generic.

Katty: Got it. Love it. What has surprised you in this pursuit?

Daniel: I mean, aside from the people, um, I mean, that's obviously a big one. I would say. I mean, I was surprised a lot. Just because, I mean, in terms of ice cream, like, I was definitely surprised at, like, some of the crazy flavors that people are coming up with around the country. You know, we talked a little bit about Saffire Rose Persian ice cream, you know, that's not that common. So, I mean, that is, is something certainly more unusual and out there. But also, there'll be other places like, you know, there's this place, forget the town, but they were right on the border between New Hampshire and Vermont, and they have like a peanut butter curry ice cream, which is really crazy to think about, but also like, surprisingly delicious, like, it has a nice nutty base, like a little curry kick at the end. So, I mean, or, you know, like, in Portland, Oregon. There was a paring blue cheese ice cream, which is like, really strange to think about, but it ends up tasting like, you know, a pear cheesecake of sorts. And he's like, “Oh, this is actually pretty good.”

Katty: Right. We have it like on a salad. Right?

Daniel: Right. Yeah, absolutely. I'll take myself a side of pear ice cream, please. So like, you know, I was surprised in those regards. And then, like I was talking about, like, all the people surprised me and how much I learned there. And, and then I also was surprised at like, how, in some ways, I was able to travel fairly inexpensively, but the other time, there were other things I thought would be inexpensive to travel but ended up costing surprisingly, more than I had anticipated. So, so things just like booking, you know, the romanticized idea of booking a train across the country or something like that. Like, those are like, surprisingly, more expensive than like, renting a car, sometimes like, really? A train ticket is, you know, sometimes, like equal parts as far as like a plane just based on like, the number of stops you do. Or, you know, buses are always the cheapest, but there's like all these other things to think about.

Katty: Okay, so in my mind, I guess I assumed, incorrectly. I assumed this was a driving trip, but not necessarily. It was a plane, trains, and automobiles trip for you?

Daniel: Absolutely. I mean, I think I took just about every form of transportation. I did take a ferry to an island. So that includes boats as well.

Katty: I guess if you wanted to make it to Alaska, you would’ve needed to somehow.

Daniel: That was a plane. So yeah, that one wasn't as connected. But there was an island, just off the coast of the states in Washington. So then we went there and had to take a ferry to get there. But the idea of-- I would often what I would do is, you know, I would go out on multiple legs, I would say, where I would do a loop of, you know, a handful of states and then maybe like, return to like Los Angeles for like, a week or two, just to like, kind of get my bearings a little bit. Gotta you know, train like that does drain you a little bit when you're just on the road. Yeah, months on end. So even though it was a full year of traveling there, it was broken up into, like, small sets.

Katty: Yeah, living out of the suitcase, I would imagine after all those months.

Daniel: Yeah, yeah, you could do that for a while. But there is something nice about you know, having a home base of sorts, you know, a nice bed to crash on.

Katty: And did you continue on this adventure on your blog so that others can follow you?

Daniel: Absolutely. Well, so the blog is specifically dedicated just to the ice cream for you. But you know, like I said, I'm really just trying to currently still reach out to like, some people, I stayed with trying to like, put, you know, a fine point on some of the things we talked about, and then hopefully get that into a book, it is definitely not an easy task. I don't know whether or not I overestimate or underestimate the difficulty of it. But it is, certainly I'm still trying to work through and you know, I do have the discipline and dedication to overcome it. I just don't know exactly how long it will be.

Katty: Yeah. Got it. But in terms of how you document it along the way, were you just journaling every, every day?

Daniel: Not every day. But you know, definitely when something noteworthy happened, I, you know, always had, whenever I got internet access, I had an ongoing, just online document that just literally has, you know, dozens of scores probably of single typed, single-spaced typed pages, where them notes from interesting things that happened or what have you. And then I have like, actual journals filled with like ice cream notes based on the flavor and like texture, composition, all that kind of stuff.

Katty: And then you came back and started working with an ice cream shop, or was that concurrently?

Daniel: Yeah, so that was --so I took the year-long journey around all 50 states. And then towards the end of that someone kind of planned the idea, like another seed of an idea in terms of, should you open up your own ice cream shop now that you've had all these good things? And I thought that was an interesting idea. Like, maybe I should probably, maybe I'll do a little research into that. Be very thoughtful in terms of that approach. So really, what I want to do is like, learn, you know, how these the best places that I went to around the country, how do they do it? So I reached out to like, a handful or two of the best ice cream shops I visited, and asked if they would want to take on an apprentice. So there was an ice cream shop up in Maine. That was like, yeah, come on up to Maine like will make ice cream for a season. It'll be awesome, and I can teach you all about that. So that's what I did. Then after that, I road tripped back from Los Angeles to Maine to live there for like 6 to 8 months and then learned everything about ice cream making-- from running the business, all that good stuff. So, and at the same time, they were benefiting for me in terms of digital marketing and account management and some of those other skills that I had, you know, more previous corporate life. So we were both benefiting from this apprenticeship.

Katty: And then are you thinking of foraying into entrepreneurship with your own ice cream business?

Daniel: That's a great question, and the answer is no. I am so glad I did this, you know, like data mining apprenticeship to learn about it. And then realize that I don't necessarily want to open up my own shop. I'm glad I did that, as opposed to having, you know, opening up my own shop and doing the very costly mistake or learning that the hard way. I still love ice cream, I can make some pretty good ice cream now. I have the skills to do it. But as far as you know, open up my own business. There's like a handful reasons why I came to that conclusion, but I decided against opening up my own.

Katty: Well, you'll get to do it for the love and the passion of it.

Daniel: Absolutely.

Katty: Good. Good. One final question. I want to kind of bring it back to where you are now in your career and really talk about the concept of discipline. I know, it's something that you had mentioned earlier when we were talking about innovation and creativity, and you brought it back to how discipline is really where you have focused and that's really the differentiator for you.

Daniel: Yeah, absolutely, I mean, discipline is so important in that, I mean, there are so many different aspects where the discipline comes involved. One in terms of, even when I was on my journey, like I as much as is a fantastic idea to talk about, you know, all the amazing experiences that I had traveling and eating ice cream, and, you know, doing whatever. I would be lying if I said there weren't, you know, some tough times. There weren't some times when I had doubts. But the same time, you know, I, when you kind of trust in the process a little bit. You know, even if you're having a less than a great day, what have you to continue pushing forward and, you know, having that discipline resolved to kind of go through with what you set out to do. You know, just the idea of just traveling alone for, you know, extended periods of time. Like when I first started out, I didn't, I mean, I wasn't a great traveler, you know, I talked about traveling, I hadn't really done much alone. So then the idea of being alone in a foreign place before I found Couchsurfing, and I had no idea what I was doing. And you know, there are times when you get lonely like is this whole thing going to work out? But you know, persevering through that, like keeping the discipline, and then again, life-changing experience. And then discipline in terms of, you know, career-focused, like, definitely seeing something through to the end, I'd say that, you know, inspiration is well and good. It can provide, you know, momentary energy, but discipline is where you always kind of need to fall back on. And just kind of knowing, forcing yourself even when, you know, it might be a little bit tough. Because then inspiration usually comes again after that, you know, it kind of ebbs and flows. It's not always just, you know, the creative drive juices pushing everything forward. There is something that should be said, of trusting in the process and pushing through some of the tougher times too.

Katty: Yeah, absolutely. One of my favorite quotes, I actually have it up on my wall. It's a Stephen Covey, quote, just says “making and keep commitments to yourself”. It is so true. That's what the discipline comes into play is to not only make them because they sound great but actually keep them.

Daniel: And I love the part where it says to yourself, because you know, sure we don’t want to let others down, but you don't want to let yourself down too. Yeah, that's really I think, finding that internal motivation.

Katty: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Daniel, I can't wait until you get an opportunity to sit down and write Cream of the Couch. I can't wait to read. It sounds like a fascinating, fascinating journey. And thank you for taking us along.

Katty: Thank you so much. That was Daniel Zimmerman sharing his story of the pursuit of the perfect ice cream. You can follow his blog, called TheKingofIceCream.com

or follow him on Instagram with @_kingoficecream and learn more about this unforgettable journey that he was on and everything that he learned along the way.

Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Artisan podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Artisan Creative, a staffing and recruitment firm specializing in creative marketing and digital talents. You can find us online at artisancreative.com or via social channels @artistancreative We look forward to connecting.