The Crime Cafe: Recent Episodes

View Details

My guest this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is crime writer and screenwriter M.M. DeLuca.

Among other things, we discussed what it was like for her to study with a Pulitzer Prize winning writer.

For a copy of the transcript, click here.

Debbi (00:54): Hi everybody. Today my guest is the author of five critically acclaimed suspense novels, including her latest novel, The Divorce Party. Originally from Durham City, England, after studying at the University of London Goldsmiths College, she moved to Winnipeg, Canada, where she worked as an English literature teacher, then as a freelance writer.

(01:20): It’s my great pleasure to have with me Marjorie DeLuca, who writes under the name MM DeLuca. Hey Marjorie, how are you doing today? Let me see if I can get you in view. There you go. Awesome.

Marjorie (01:35): It’s great to be here. Lovely to talk to you.

Debbi (01:38): Well, I’m very pleased to have you on. It says, oh, how are things in Manitoba, anyway? How are things in Winnipeg?

Marjorie (01:48): Hot and humid.

Debbi (01:50): Hot and humid.

Marjorie (01:51): Hot, humid, windy with periods of rain.

Debbi (01:54): Oh my, that sounds like us.

Marjorie (01:57): It’s greener. Greener than usual.

Debbi (02:00): Well, there you go. There’s that.

Marjorie (02:01): Yeah. Yeah.

Debbi (02:03): Let’s see. Now in your bio, it says that you studied advanced creative writing with Pulitzer Prize winner Dr. Carol Shields. What was it like to study such a subject with a Pulitzer Prize winner?

Marjorie (02:17): It was like meeting a rock star. It really was. We were her final class before she retired, and we were all sitting there that day in awe because she just won the Pulitzer Prize. We were sitting there just waiting for her to come in, and she slipped through the door. She was this very petite, quiet lady, and she was just amazing. She had a charisma about her, and she wasn’t just your teacher. She was a friend, a mentor, and she loved to meet with us outside of class and we’d all go for lunches and she’d say, “Tell me the gossip. Come on.” And she was just a wonderful teacher. And actually, a lot of the things that we did in class, I used as an English teacher, but she had a profound influence on my career. It was an amazing one year that we spent with her.

(03:22): And after that, she moved away to the coast, to BC, and sadly passed away some years after that. But yeah, it was a fabulous experience.

Debbi (03:36): Was this during, I assume these are graduate studies?

Marjorie (03:43): Yes, it was, but you had to send in a piece of work or several pieces, and she selected the participants. So it was a one-year, just once a week course. Yeah.

Debbi (04:00): Sounds very much like a fellowship or something like that.

Marjorie (04:04): Yeah. Well, she was a professor at the University of Manitoba for many years. And when she won the Pulitzer Prize, I think she was the only female professor at the time.

Debbi (04:15): Oh my goodness.

Marjorie (04:16): The other male colleagues were a bit miffed, I think.

Debbi (04:20): Oh, dear.

Marjorie (04:22): She won the prize. But anyway, no, maybe that’s not fair, but she had been there quite a while as a teacher, a professor.

Debbi (04:34): Well, that’s just extraordinary that you had that opportunity. That’s fabulous.

Marjorie (04:38): Yes.

Debbi (04:41): What genre would you say your writing falls into?

Marjorie (04:45): I’m all over the place, really. I get bored in one genre. I started off in sci-fi, young adult sci-fi when I was teaching grades 10 to 12. And around that time, The Hunger Games came out and the kids just loved it, even reluctant readers. So as I was reading them, I thought, “I could write something like this.” And so that’s when I really started getting serious about putting something together.

(05:18):And I wrote a trilogy called The Forevers. Here’s the cover of it. I couldn’t find a publisher, so I self-published the trilogy and actually did pretty well. And later on, I adapted it into a series, and I actually got shortlisted for a Netflix call for submissions with my pilot and pitch, but they didn’t pick it up, but I’m still hoping that someone will. So I started off with that. Then you can see I’m all over the place.

(05:57): Then I went into historical fiction and wrote this family saga called The Pittman’s Daughter. And that’s based on my mother’s reminiscences as growing up in a culinary town in Durham, near Durham in the northeast of England. She was a Pittman’s daughter, a coal miner’s daughter. I couldn’t get that published by a publisher, so I self-published it.

And then I really love historical fiction. The first book I got published was this, The Savage Instinct, which is fact meets fiction set against the trial of real life serial poisoner, Mary Ann Cotton. So that’s when I started getting into suspense. I wrote another suspense book called Lilah, and then began a string of contemporary suspense.

So I had The Perfect Family Man, which was a big bestseller, The Secret Sister, The Night Side, which is sort of dark paranormal suspense. And then The Divorce Party, which is. I sort of got tired of being in the dark side after The Savage Instinct and The Night Side.

(07:32): I thought, I think I need something light. So I came up with The Divorce Party, which is exactly what it says. Friends from university who were invited by their frenemy, I guess, to her divorce party in Las Vegas. I had a lot of fun writing that.

Debbi (07:56): I was going to say, that sounds very acerbic wit stuff.

Marjorie (08:02): Oh, it was such fun writing it and researching it was so funny. There’s a whole industry devoted to divorce parties

Debbi (08:12): Oh, my gosh.

Marjorie (08:12): In Las Vegas.

Debbi (08:13): Oh, I can imagine.

Marjorie (08:14): I had no idea.

Debbi (08:15): I didn’t know. I don’t know anything about it, but I can imagine, wow.

Marjorie (08:20): No, I didn’t. I knew there’s the marriage thing. Well, there’s the whole marriage thing with the chapels and all of that. Note: There’s divorce cocktails. There’s special divorce playlists. There’s divorce party games. It’s incredible.

Debbi (08:38): Divorce party industry. Wow, that’s fantastic.

Marjorie (08:42): I know.

Debbi (08:42): Fantastic stuff. Places you go when you start looking.

Marjorie (08:47): I know. And it’s actually not as depressing as you’d think because a lot of these divorce parties are looking at things as a fresh start, a way to reinvent yourself. Unfortunately, in my book, it’s not as nice as that.

Debbi (09:06): They’re reinventing themselves in bad ways perhaps.

Marjorie (09:09): Yes. They’re actually trying to reinvent themselves, but the past keeps popping up like a corpse in a swimming pool.

Debbi (09:18): That’s right.

Marjorie (09:20): And then my latest one is another one of these destination thrillers, and that’s set in Mexico in a big villa at a 60th wedding anniversary.

Debbi (09:34): Deadly Diamonds.

Marjorie (09:36): Yeah. Actually, the book is still at the copy editing phase, and the publisher hasn’t done the cover release yet.

Debbi (09:52): Yeah.

Marjorie (09:53): Yeah. So it’s set in Mexico during the weekend of Día de Los Muertos. And that’s why I’m wearing a T-shirt with a –

Debbi (10:05): Nice.

Marjorie (10:07): Yeah.

Debbi (10:08): Very nice.

Marjorie (10:10): So I’m all over the genres. I jump it back and forth.

Debbi (10:16): That’s pretty impressive. I see you’ve done a combination of self-publishing and publishing through presses. Is that correct?

Marjorie (10:23): Yes. Yeah.

Debbi (10:26): But you started with self-publishing?

Marjorie (10:28): Yeah, I started with self-publishing.

Debbi (10:31): And when was that?

Marjorie (10:34): That was probably around 2013. The market was way less crowded. When I started self-publishing, it was possible to sell a decent number of books. So The Pittman’s Daughter and The Forevers trilogy did quite well. Nowadays, I’m not so sure. I think it’s really, really competitive and expensive to market.

Debbi (11:04): I know. Believe me, I know.

Marjorie (11:07): Oh, yes? You’ve self-published?

Debbi (11:09): I’m right in there. Yeah, I’m self-published. Yeah.

Marjorie (11:12): Yes.

Debbi (11:12): I am totally self-published at this point.

Marjorie (11:16): Yeah, and it takes a lot of your time.

Debbi (11:18): With a few exceptions. Oh, yeah, it does. It takes a lot of time. The thing is that I’m also involved in screenwriting, so there’s a lot of time that gets devoted. You do screenwriting?

Marjorie (11:32): Yes.

Debbi (11:33): Excellent. Most excellent. Good to know. How did you get into screenwriting?

Marjorie (11:41): My daughter is a costume designer for film, and one of her earlier projects, she was involved in some Hallmark movies, and I saw some of these. I can write one of those. So I co-wrote a Hallmark feature with a friend of hers who’s involved in the movies as well. It never got anywhere. Then I adapted The Forevers and did that pitch and the pilot episode and got a lot of encouragement from the Netflix executive who really loved it. But unfortunately, there’s that phrase, “We love it, but we’re not going to go with this.”

Debbi (12:26): Yes. Getting the green light is hard.

Marjorie (12:29): I know.

Debbi (12:30): It’s become harder.

Marjorie (12:32): Yes. It’s more difficult than even getting a book published, I think. And then I met up with another friend of hers who’s a production designer, and he wanted someone to co-write an action thriller with him. So we co-wrote an action thriller, which is actually going through some early stages of development, so I’m hopeful.

Debbi (12:57): That’s great.

Marjorie (12:58): Yeah. And I’ve had some interest in The Divorce Party, of people interested in adapting it, so we’ll see.

Debbi (13:06): Wonderful.

Marjorie (13:06): You never know until the green light comes on.

Debbi (13:12): Exactly.

Marjorie (13:14): It’s in suspension.

Debbi (13:15): It’s all very sketchy until it actually happens.

Marjorie (13:18): Yeah.

Debbi (13:20): And even if it’s happening, it might get shut down. You never know.

Marjorie (13:24): I know. I know. But screenwriting does help with novel writing.

Debbi (13:29): It does. You’re absolutely right about that.

Marjorie (13:32): Yes.

Debbi (13:33): I learned that fast. How do you decide which story you want to tell?

Marjorie (13:46): It’s interesting because it takes me a long time. I’ve usually got two or three projects going at the same time that come to me through either. The inspiration either comes from a memory, an image that was catchy to me, something that I saw in the news maybe, or somebody that I met that’s kind of sparked an idea. So a project that I’m working on right now that might be picked up by a publisher, it was suggested to me by a childhood image of when I was a kid. We lived in a house just outside of Durham City. And I remember one day there was a terrible accident outside the front of the house, a car accident. And I remember we had a little kind of bank that I could look out onto the road from. And I remember seeing a pair of red child’s shoes and this red shoes, red shoes thing stuck in my mind forever.

(15:05): And just that image sets up a whole set of different ideas for me. And it takes me a while to explore the ideas before I start writing in, because I’ve done it the opposite where I’ve gone full tilt on an idea that’s not fully developed. And then you’re like, okay, now what?

Debbi (15:29): Exactly.

Marjorie (15:30): So then I’ve got another project, which is a sci-fi one, which that came to me when I thought about deserted shopping malls. We went for a visit down to Grand Forks, which is just south of us in North Dakota. And the mall, which used to be busy in the ’90s, was a dead zone. It was the weirdest place I’ve ever stepped into. The food court was empty. There were no stores. It was a ghost town. And then I started thinking, wow, what if these in the future were places that people lived? And what if the grid failed basically, and people were forced to live in these malls, but the wealthy people lived in biospheres? I came up with an idea there were three classes of people, the wealthy people living in the biospheres, the mid-range people living in the malls and the old Costco warehouses, and then the feral people living wild,

(16:49): And came up with this story about the wealthy people wanting to move off the planet basically. And it’s a whole complicated story, but that idea was just suggested by the mall. So I’ve got all of these projects going, and I kind of dot from one to the other. And my rule is if it doesn’t get me in the gut, if I don’t feel an emotional connection after writing it for a while, I put it aside. For me, it has to touch the emotions somewhere. And that’s how I decide. I kind of have the two or three projects. I write a bit here and a bit there. But if it hasn’t got some emotional resonance, then I put it aside for a while until I can come up with something better.

Debbi (17:49): I know the feeling because, I think it must be a screenwriter thing because I have multiple screenplays that I’ve started. Ideas that I really want to develop and take somewhere.

Marjorie (18:02): Yeah. Yeah, I know.

Debbi (18:04): It’s always about which one do I really connect with the most?

Marjorie (18:09): Yes, I know. I mean, I’m sure writers have so many ideas in their draw when they’re sitting on their laptop that could be great stories. I’ve got lots of thoughts.

Debbi (18:22): Exactly. Yeah.

Marjorie (18:23): But it takes a really fully formed idea to go to the end of a novel.

Debbi (18:29): Exactly. Or a feature film.

Marjorie (18:32): Yes.

Debbi (18:33): I was going to say that you must be an outliner at heart.

Marjorie (18:38): No, I’m not actually. That’s why screenwriting was so good for me. It forced me to outline things. Yeah. So I’m a kind of semi-plotter, semi-outliner. I’ll have a basic outline, and I usually know the ending, and then I’ll start writing from there. But I’m not a beat by beat person unless I’m writing a screenplay.

Debbi (19:05): Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I tend to be more beat by beat, but I’m willing to vary from the beats. This is the thing for me. It’s like if I know where I’m going, that’s what counts.

Marjorie (19:18): Yeah. Well, you do need to know the ending.

Debbi (19:21): Yeah.

Marjorie (19:21): It’s interesting because we are working on the publisher, the editor, my publisher that published The Savage Instinct, we are working on an adaptation of it, but it’s amazing just how much a feature movie requires you to strip the story right down to the essentials.

Debbi (19:44): Absolutely.

Marjorie (19:46): So I’ve done the beat sheet for The Savage Instinct, and I had to cut lots of the story out. I had to cut some side plots and some characters because the movie is just really lean. You have to get down to the essence of it.

Debbi (20:11): Exactly. Yeah. You can’t have too many subplots. You can’t have too many characters. Not only is that going to confuse the audience, but the cost goes up. More actors.

Marjorie (20:24): Yes. Well, that’s the thing. Yes.

Debbi (20:25): This is a reality.

Marjorie (20:27): Yeah. And that’s what my editor kept telling me. More characters, more money. And at the center of The Savage Instinct, it’s really a story about two women, a childless woman and a child poisoner. And it’s set in the Victorian era, but it’s a really strange dynamic between these two women. The childless woman is a prison visitor visiting the child poisoner. So a very strange relationship develops because the childless woman’s husband is very oppressed. He’s basically oppressing her. And yes, she forms a friendship with the poisoner and a sort of strange mentorship arises. I won’t say anymore.

Debbi (21:28): Yeah, that does sound like a strange mentorship. Let’s see. What authors do you like to read?

Marjorie (21:39): Interesting. The book that I’m currently reading now is written by a Canadian author who I really loved his first book. It’s called The Caretaker by Marcus Kliewer. He wrote, We Used to Live Here. I don’t really have heard of that one. He’s very, very good. I love Margaret Atwood. I think I’ve read most of her books. I read, I’m trying to think. I have so many books that I like. I used to read more suspense and thrillers than I do now. I liked Gillian McAllister.

Debbi (22:30): Oh, yeah. I think

Marjorie (22:30): It’s Gillian McAllister. I really liked her. Lisa Jewell, I’ve enjoyed some of her books. Then I just read a book called Liberty Street, which is by another Canadian author about a journalist that goes into a woman’s prison in the ’60s. She gets herself admitted to a woman’s prison because in the ’60s you could be sent there if you were incorrigible. You are an incorrigible young woman that your parents couldn’t contain you. You could be sent to this awful prison.

Debbi (23:09): Oh, my goodness.

Marjorie (23:11): Yeah. So I read a variety of books.

Debbi (23:15): Wow, that sounds like quite an interesting book.

Marjorie (23:18): Yeah.

Debbi (23:19): Scary and horrible, but interesting. Yeah. How do you divide your time between writing and marketing?

Marjorie (23:29): I probably don’t do enough marketing. The publisher does some. I’m published at present with a smaller British press, Bloodhound Books, and they’re really good at producing marketing materials. They do beautiful visuals and they make a trailer for the book and they’re really helpful, but you still, as the author, have to do quite a bit yourself.

Debbi (24:01): Oh, yes.

Marjorie (24:02): There’s Instagram posts. Well, I don’t know. I mean, if we knew what worked, I’m not sure. I see people nowadays are doing lots of recorded messages on Instagram and stuff, I guess, to make sure that people don’t think AI wrote their book or something. They’re trying to personalize their author platform.

I have a website, but it takes a lot of time to do all this stuff. Oh, yeah. For sure. I write every morning, but once I’ve gone through the emails and then looked after a couple of things, I’m like, okay, where’s the time going? I haven’t written anything. So I have to have deadlines.

I work best with a tight deadline. So my book, The Night Side, was published with Seven House who were taken over now by Joffe Books. And so I might be doing another one for them. I’m not sure, but I gave myself a deadline to finish this book. So once I know it’s coming up, then I really go to it and forget the marketing for a while.

Debbi (25:26): Yeah, that’s probably best.

Marjorie (25:29): Yeah.

Debbi (25:29): When you’re in the zone on something, you really just have to stick with that.

Marjorie (25:34): Yeah.

Debbi (25:36): Let’s see. What kind of writing schedule do you keep?

Marjorie (25:40): Well, I write every morning and take the afternoon off. Otherwise, my husband would be like, “Come on, let’s go out.” And I’m like, “Okay.” We golf and all of that. Then I write sometimes in the evening as well. Depends just what kind of a schedule I’ve got.

Debbi (26:01): Yeah.

Marjorie (26:02): You do have to set aside a period of time, but you can’t do it all the time. And I tend to write more in the winter. Summer’s a bit difficult because you’re just wanting to get outside and to be in the fresh air.

Debbi (26:20): Absolutely.

Marjorie (26:23): I write Saturdays and Sundays. There’s no day off. And in fact, really, there’s no time off ever because you probably know this, you’re always thinking about ideas.

Debbi (26:36): Oh, yes. A writer never really takes a vacation. No,

Marjorie (26:40): No, no.

Debbi (26:43): There’s always something good cooking up there. I don’t know.

Marjorie (26:46): Yeah. Even when I’m on vacation, I’m thinking,

Debbi (26:51): Yeah, yeah. What will I write about this?

Marjorie (26:53): Yeah. Yeah.

Debbi (26:56): That’s interesting. Sometimes I catch myself blogging in my head.

Marjorie (27:01): Oh, really?

Debbi (27:01): Yeah. So to speak. Yeah. How would I blog this particular scene that’s taking place right now?

Marjorie (27:09): And then you drift away and your husband’s probably like, “Hello?”

Debbi (27:12): Hey, are you there?

Marjorie (27:14): Yeah.

Debbi (27:14): Listen to me. Okay. Yes.

Marjorie (27:18): Actually, I’ve gotten into trouble a few times because I’m a people watcher and staring at people and their interactions. And I’ve had more than one set of people say, “Do you want a photograph or something?”

Debbi (27:33): It’s funny because I have to really catch myself not to do that. It’s like I will see something and I’m just like, “Wow, that’s really interesting.” I mean, if people start to get to the point where they’re like, “Hey, what are you looking at?” That would worry me a little bit.

Marjorie (27:51): Yeah. Well, actually, that was something that Carol Shields told us to do. She said, “You have to develop your writer’s eyes and ears. So you would look for something beyond the obvious.”

Debbi (28:08): Exactly.

Marjorie (28:09): “And then you listen to other people’s conversations.” And actually I have that in, I think it’s in my book, The Night Side maybe. Yeah, I talk about that. The character talks about that. It’s either that or The Perfect Family Man. I can’t remember. Now I’m getting them mixed up. But I used to tell that to my students because I taught creative writing at high school, and I’d send them out to just find images, find things around the school that they’d never looked at before. And they would come back and write it all on the board and there’d be a mass of different images. And it was amazing experience. Then I’d tell them to listen in on conversations and we’d make big displays of that. And they would go away and write stories inspired by one or more of those images or sound bites. They loved it.

Debbi (29:15): That’s a very cool thing.

Marjorie (29:17): Yeah, it was.

Debbi (29:18): A very cool thing to get people writing.

Marjorie (29:20): Yeah.

Debbi (29:21): Good writing prompts.

Marjorie (29:23): Yeah.

Debbi (29:24): What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in a writing career?

Marjorie (29:30): Have a day job.

Debbi (29:33): Yes.

Marjorie (29:34): You can’t make enough money as a writer unless you’re one of the top. I don’t even know what the percentage is now. There’s not enough money to support you as a writer. So have a day job if you’re a young person, have a backup and have a very thick skin because you’re going to get criticized, you’re going to get … You’re going to be putting your work out there and you’re going to get some very weird reviews sometimes, but you can’t personalize it because not everybody’s going to like what you put out there. And another thing I would say is that for the older writer, it’s never too late. Writing is one thing that you can do regardless of your age. It doesn’t matter how old you are, as long as you can sit down and come up with a story, keep going with it. It’s a great thing to do as a retired person because you’re not worrying so much about the financial side of it.

(30:45): But I would say only do it if you’re willing to pour out, sort of plunder your own emotional life and lay it bare for everyone to see. It’s a risky thing to do.

Debbi (31:03): Yes. Yes, it is.

Marjorie (31:08): And you expose yourself to other people’s scrutiny.

Debbi (31:13): Yes. Yes, it is. It is a risky thing. And I’m not sure people really appreciate that until they actually do it.

Marjorie (31:24): Well, the very first time that I had to share a piece of my work was in Carol’s class, and your heart’s pounding, you’re flushed and hot and cold, and you’re like, “People are going to hate it. People are going to hate it.” And then you read it. And thankfully, people liked what I read. So once I had done it a few times, I was fine, but I know a lot of young writers are reluctant to share their work. I would get students coming to me and saying, “I’ve got this book of poems. Will you look at it?” And I’d say, “Well, do you want me just to read it or do you want me to give you constructive feedback?” And some students would say, “No, I just want you to read it because it’s part of me. I don’t care to revise it.” And others would say, “Yeah, I want to make it better.” So know why you’re writing.

(32:25): Are you writing to share it with other people? Or is it just something cathartic for you? And if it’s something to share and publish, then you have to know that writing is a business as well.

Debbi (32:43): Yes. Yes to all of what you said.

Marjorie (32:46): Yeah.

Debbi (32:47): I mean, what great advice. Wonderful. Thank you. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Marjorie (32:57): I think one of the things that as a writer that has been wonderful for me is, and probably for you too, is finding a community of writers, a virtual community, as well as writers here in my own hometown. But I have a very tight-knit group of writer friends all over the UK, the US, and Canada. And because it’s such a solitary pursuit, it’s great to have those people to complain to vent, to ask how they’re doing. It’s amazing. Do you find that too?

Debbi (33:37): Oh, it’s definitely a good thing to have community for sure of people to talk about these things.

Marjorie (33:45): Yeah,

Debbi (33:46): Absolutely.

Marjorie (33:49): And there’s some great organizations that are helpful in that, but I get to meet some of these people in person now at the Bouchercon in October. That’s right. The International. No, it’s not the International Thriller Writers, that’s Thriller Fest. Yeah, this year it’s in Calgary.

Debbi (34:14): Calgary, yes.

Marjorie (34:14): Big conference. Yeah. So I’m looking forward to that and moderating a panel.

Debbi (34:20): It makes me wish I decided to go.

Marjorie (34:24): Yeah.

Debbi (34:25): Shoot.

Marjorie (34:26): Calgary’s a beautiful place. Yeah.

Debbi (34:28): I really would love to go back up to Canada and see more of it.

Marjorie (34:33): Yeah, I think they’re doing some tours to the Rockies to ban from. It’s not too late.

Debbi (34:41): I’ll give it some serious thought.

Marjorie (34:43): Yeah. Yeah.

Debbi (34:44): See if I can convince my husband to go up to Canada. I don’t see why he would object. He objects so much that’s going on down here that going to Canada might be a relief.

Marjorie (34:58): Yeah, escape to the Rockies. You’d love it.

Debbi (35:01): Yeah, yeah. Escape to the Rockies.

Marjorie (35:01): And Calgary’s such a lovely town.

Debbi (35:04): I’ve heard that they’re fabulous looking too.

Marjorie (35:06): Oh, spectacular. Yeah.

Debbi (35:09): Well, I want to thank you so much for being here and hang around for a little bit more because we’re going to do a bonus episode for the Patreon supporters.

Marjorie (35:18): Okay.

Debbi (35:18): Alrighty. Excellent. Thank you so much for being here, Marjorie.

Marjorie (35:22): Thank you. It was great to talk to you.

Debbi (35:24): Great talking to you too. Thank you.

Marjorie (35:27): Okay, thanks.

Debbi (35:29): So to all my listeners, thank you so much for listening. That goes especially to my Patreon and Substack supporters. Thank you for following me there and for supporting me there. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review. They help. And until next time, happy reading and I’ll be seeing you.

View Details

This week’s guest is William Stuart, executive producer and director of the popular scripted podcast American Afterlife.wi

Imagine, using a scripted podcast as a proof of concept. Because we talk about that here

The transcript will be coming soon.

View Details

My guest this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is poli-sci professor and crime writer Caleb McGee Husmann.

We talk a little about his academic specialty–political science–and mostly about writing and crime fiction!

For a copy of the transcript, click here.

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today is the author of several novels, including Exteriors and Interiors, Feral Chickens: A Hawaiian Comedy, and Owen O’Shea: Stay-At-Home Dad, Wannabe Detective. I love that title. Originally from Minnesota. He now lives in North Carolina with his wife Beth and their daughter, Jo.

(01:18): It’s my pleasure to have with me today, C. McGee. He writes as C. McGee, but his name is Caleb Husmann . Hi, Caleb. How are you doing today?

Caleb (01:28): I’m doing well, Debbi. How are you doing?

Debbi (01:30): Just fine, thanks. So according to your bio, you are both professors in the department of two at a small university. Now, is it the subject that is so arcane that only two people are doing it or is the university so small that it can only afford two people in that department?

Caleb (01:51): Option B. Option Be. We only got a thousand students. So it’s a small school in downtown Raleigh, North Carolina. So William Peace University. So we’re it, the Department of Two. My wife is my boss, so she’s my boss at work and at home, all the time.

Debbi (02:10): I see. I see. And what subject do you teach?

Caleb (02:14): We’re political scientists. So we are the entire department. We do a little bit with the criminal justice department as well and then pre-law, but political science is the main thing.

Debbi (02:25): Well, it’s an interesting area to be in right now, I guess.

Caleb (02:28): There’s always world events happening. That is one, I overall view it as a positive about being a political science professor is even when you’re teaching the same topics, it’s still new because you tie in current events that are happening now. And so I’m whatever almost 15 years into being a professor. I honestly think if I was teaching a subject that didn’t refresh every semester, I would kind of be exhausted of it, but I love it because sure, I’m teaching federalism again, but this time it’s California’s trying to go independent instead of Texas trying to go independent from four years earlier. It’s always something new, which is great.

Debbi (03:09): Exactly. Yeah, that’s true. When did you start writing fiction?

Caleb (03:16): Graduate school. So it’s funny I say that because in graduate school you’re already writing a ton. You’re writing for class and you’re writing your dissertation and all that sort of stuff. But actually it was during the summer I was interning in DC and usually I was working on the Hill for my member of the house that I worked for, but on my days off, I started to write. I guess I started writing a little bit short stories and stuff before that, but that was the first time I started to write a novel. I don’t know. I guess I was looking for, I played a lot of soccer growing up. I played soccer in college, had a couple trials with some pro teams, and then it didn’t work out. And then I was like, “Well, crap, I got to do something else.” And then I ended up going to grad school and figured out I still needed something that I could really strive for that I wasn’t sure I was going to succeed at.

(04:14): I think that was part of the draw of soccer. I love playing soccer, but there was no guarantee that you were going to make it, and so you were striving for something that was kind of out of reach. And with writing novels, I mean, it’s somewhat the same as it’s a tall order and finishing it and getting it out there. And then can you get it published and that whole ordeal? It’s a monumental task, but I find those sorts of challenges draw me in for some reason. I don’t know, maybe I’m a sadist, who knows?

Debbi (04:45): I think most writers have a tendency to think of themselves as masochists. We are always seeking ways to challenge ourselves and do better.

Caleb (04:56): Yes. Masochist. There you go. That’s the word.

Debbi (04:59): Yeah. We are sadistic to ourselves.

Caleb (05:01): Yes, there you go. There you go. Thank you.

Debbi (05:04): Split personality.

Caleb (05:05): Better vocabulary.

Debbi (05:07): We have split personalities. We have a sadistic side that picks on our masochistic side.

Caleb (05:12): That sounds right.

Debbi (05:14): Let’s see. Now your writing style seems very humorous. I like that about it. I love the tone of the O’Shea story.

Caleb (05:27): I think it goes along with my personality. I think all of my writing is humorous. Owen O’Shea is definitely the novel that’s, the main character is the most me. The other novels, I definitely had to think through, okay, what would this character be thinking at this time? With Owen O’Shea, I was basically like, all right, what would I do? So it was the easiest to capture that voice because it was the closest to myself just in that sort of situation. But yeah, I think the goal was to find some line between the mysteries. There’s the gritty noir mysteries that tend to come out of Scandinavia and stuff like that. And then there’s the comfy, cozy, Jessica Fletcher, Murder She Wrote type mysteries. And I feel like there’s not necessarily a ton that are in between where they’re a little bit more suspenseful and the humor is a little bit more adult and adult things happen, but it’s also not dark and like The Killing or something like that.

Debbi (06:36): Exactly. Yeah. It’s not grotesquely scary or whatever, but there’s just enough in there to keep you on the edge of your seat, keep you turning the pages, that kind of thing.

Caleb (06:48): Exactly. So that’s the goal.

Debbi (06:50): Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Let’s see. What inspired you to write comedy in general?

Caleb (07:00): I think it’s always been a big part of my personality. Another professor was asking me what was my main value? And I think they wanted something profound, but I said fun. Fun was my main value.

Debbi (07:14): That’s a great value.

Caleb (07:15): Yeah. I mean, who doesn’t like having fun? And I think sometimes we take life too seriously. And even in more serious situations, I’ve always found humor is a great way to deal with it and handle it. And it’s just kind of a natural part of my personality so it naturally comes out in my writing. And so I’ve rolled with it from my first three novels. It’s interesting, the one I’m working on now is the first one I’ve written that’s not really comedic because it’s a horror novel, which is different. But that actually took more time because the comedy is my default way of thinking and so it comes out easier.

Debbi (07:55): Exactly. Yeah. Interesting. Do you have a writing routine? Do you have a time when you write?

Caleb (08:03): Yes, absolutely. If I don’t sit down and treat it like a shift, then it’s not going to happen.

Debbi (08:09): Exactly.

Caleb (08:10): I think there’s this romantic notion for writers, but really for all the arts of like, oh, the muse is going to strike and then I’m going to write this great thing. And that’s not really… I’m sure there are people like that. I don’t think it’s most people. I think most people, you show up and you sit and you push, and then two hours later, hopefully something came out. So that’s typically what I do, is typically I will set a timer depending on the day and how much time I have for just two or three hours. And that’s every Tuesday and Thursday because my schedule allows for it. And then Saturday and Sunday, assuming I’m not bringing my daughter to a sports practice or something like that, then I try and do two to three hours on Saturday and Sunday as well.

Debbi (09:01): Yeah. Yeah. It takes diligence to do this and you really do have to devote time to it. People don’t realize how much time writers put into their work.

Caleb (09:11): It takes ages, ages. And I’m always jealous of… So I just read Stephen King’s On Writing, which was one of the best books on writing. It’s up there with Bird by Bird as my favorite books on writing.

Debbi (09:23): I love Bird by Bird.

Caleb (09:25): It’s so great. It’s so great. But Stephen King, who it’s interesting, his novels are up and down for me. There’s ones I love. It is one of my favorite novels of all time. The Body‘s one of my favorite novellas of all time, but then there’s other ones that I DNF’ed. So I didn’t know what to expect into going on his book on writing and it was spectacular. It was so good. And he talks about that, that he’s got to sit down and do it. But also in his two-hour session, he can write whatever, 2000 words or something crazy like that. I’m like, at the end of two hours, I’m lucky if I have 500 words. His output is insane.

Debbi (10:03): Everybody varies in terms of what they can produce.

Caleb (10:07): Yeah.

Debbi (10:08): I mean, I know people who say, oh yeah, I can write 10,000 words a day. And it’s like, well, okay, that’s you. Not everybody is like that.

Caleb (10:18): I can’t even wrap my head around that.

Debbi (10:20): I mean, these galactic figures that I’m just like, okay, really? And how many of those words do you end up throwing out, I wonder?

Caleb (10:29): I think maybe that’s some people’s process, having talked to them, is that they just spew it all out.

Debbi (10:35): They spew it out.

Caleb (10:36): I think the editing really takes them ages and they’re really adding a ton more to the story afterwards.

Debbi (10:43): It could be. Or taking out a lot sometimes.

Caleb (10:45): Yeah, that’s definitely true.

Debbi (10:47): That’s true for movies, that’s for sure.

Caleb (10:50): Yeah. I think most novels benefit from being cut down a fair amount, my own included for sure.

Debbi (10:55): Oh, I think there’s a lot of air in writing that can come out. I see it all the time. And you said you’re working on a horror novel now. That’s interesting.

Caleb (11:08): Yeah, it’s a pretty big change for me. I’ve always read a lot of horror. I’ve always loved horror movies, but because comedy I think is my default, I didn’t go in that road. Although there’s a lot of good horror/comedy stuff. The Apple TV series that just came out, what is it? Widow’s Bay?

Debbi (11:27): Oh yeah, I’ve heard of that.

Caleb (11:28): Oh, if you haven’t seen it, you should watch it. I mean, I’m aiming for horror and for comedy, but it really hits both out of the horror element and the comedy element.

Debbi (11:38): Interesting.

Caleb (11:40): But I found I couldn’t keep the tension and the tone of the horror novel when I threw in the comedy. And so the horror novel’s definitely not as comedy-based as my other books, not even close. I mean, there’s not really any comedy in it. It’s a straight horror novel.

Debbi (11:58): Yeah. Okay. Well, that sounds interesting. Be a new, interesting direction for you to go in.

Caleb (12:06): Yes, it’ll be a change of pace. It’s interesting too, writing query letters to publishers and agents too, that’s so different. The other ones were like comedy, and then this one I’m writing explaining this supernatural horror that haunts them from their youth and this camp that has this unnatural draw to it. So it’s a very different, even just marketing the novel and trying to get an agent and a publisher for it is a whole different process.

Debbi (12:38): So you are actively looking for an agent?

Caleb (12:42): Yes. So I’ve published my first three novels with Roundfire and they’ve been good. They’ve been great, but obviously you can get an agent and get in with one of the big four, that’d be great. I mean, one of the big four publishers would be ideal.

Debbi (12:56): Right.

Caleb (12:57): Not going to even look at you if you don’t.

Debbi (13:02): Yeah. They don’t always give you the support that you think they might.

Caleb (13:09): Yeah.

Debbi (13:11): I’m sure you’ve heard the stories at this point.

Caleb (13:14): Yes, I have. A bunch of mid-list publishers that do great things and really work with their people. I don’t want to say that Roundfire has been… I have nothing negative to say. It’s been great. It’s just if I can get bigger, I’ll go for it. But yeah, I’ll be happy if it ends up coming out with Roundfire as well.

Debbi (13:36): Well, I wish you luck with that.

Caleb (13:38): Thank you.

Debbi (13:39): I hope that they fully support you as they should, whoever you are with.

Caleb (13:45): So fingers crossed.

Debbi (13:46): Fingers crossed. Do you have a favorite author or genre that you like to read?

Caleb (13:52): Oh, I read all across. Are there genres that I tend towards more? Yeah, I like horror, like I was saying a lot. I like a good thriller mystery, but I’ll read anything from a philosophical treatise to a cozy mystery. Give it all to me. I’m totally on board. As far as favorite writers go, I love Jim Thompson. So he’s an old pulp writer. He wrote Pop. 1280 and The Killer Inside Me and all those. I think he’s massively underrated. Most of his books were almost out of print. And then I actually think Stephen King, we were just talking about, mentioned once that he was his favorite crime writer and now all of his books are back in print, which shows you the power of Stephen King.

(14:38): And that’s great. He deserves it because he’s amazing. So Jim Thompson is definitely up there. But I also like comedy stuff like Nick Hornby, who wrote High Fidelity and About a Boy and all that sort of stuff. And then I’m trying to think. I wasn’t really a reader until I was about 17. And then almost every one of my generation, I read the Harry Potter novels and got hooked on reading. And so JK Rowling will always have a special place because of the fact that she got me to be a reader and then a writer because I wouldn’t be a writer without being a reader for sure.

Debbi (15:15): That’s right. Yeah.

Caleb (15:17): And so Patricia Highsmith, I love her. All the Ripley books are great. Yeah. And then let’s see. And then for being out there and really different, Danielewski who wrote House of Leaves, he just came out with a new one called Tom’s Crossing that is also awesome. He is unlike any other author that has ever existed. I don’t know. I don’t want to overstate it, but I feel like he reinvented the novel.

Debbi (15:45): Interesting.

Caleb (15:46): Pretty great.

Debbi (15:46): Well, I’ll have to check that guy out.

Caleb (15:48): Oh yeah. House of Leaves is the first one you got to go to.

Debbi (15:51): House of Leaves.

Caleb (15:52): House of Leaves. You will have never read anything like it. I can guarantee you that.

Debbi (15:57): That’s interesting. Wow. Because one of my favorite writers did something really remarkable with a private eye novel. I think it was Jonathan Franzen [With apologies to Jonathan Lethem], I think, maybe who did Gun with Occasional Music. I’m trying to remember if he was the one who did Gun with Occasional Music because I love that book so much. It has weird dystopian sci-fi and a private eye involved in investigating a case with these bizarre creatures just doing business with human beings, ordinary human beings. I can’t remember what they were like, but they were really bizarre creatures in some way. These fantastic creatures that he can’t quite grasp. It’s like, I don’t like these people, whatever they are. And then the ending is just so clever. It was like, oh my God. It kind of blew my mind.

Caleb (17:07): Brilliant.

Debbi (17:07): And the title makes sense, but you have to read the story for it to make sense. It has to do with weapons and music, gun with occasional music.

Caleb (17:19): Oh, that’s pretty good.

Debbi (17:21): Weapons that play songs. It’s all very strange. I’m having a hard time remembering the details because it’s been a while since I’ve read it, but it was really a remarkable book. But now I have to read House of Leaves.

Caleb (17:35): You won’t be disappointed.

Debbi (17:36): And Tom’s Crossing and the rest of this guy’s stuff.

Caleb (17:39): Yeah. House of Leaves is definitely the one I would start with. But Tom’s Crossing, which is the most recent one, is my second favorite. So yeah, Danielewski’s amazing. Franzen’s amazing. I think the thing that gets me about Franzen is, so I’ve read Freedom and The Corrections and maybe one or two more, but those are the two that stick in my head. And I don’t like any of his characters. I loathe all of his characters, but I still love the book, which that’s pretty remarkable. If you can write a novel in which you’re kind of rooting against every single character in both freedom and the corrections and still be turning the pages at a crazy pace, that’s amazing. He is so talented to be able to pull that off.

Debbi (18:28): When you can get people to relate to unlikeable people because they have something about them that makes you like them, that’s really pulling off a remarkable thing I think. Yeah.

Caleb (18:40): It is. I totally agree with that.

Debbi (18:42): And you see it a lot. You see it a lot on television. I mean, Tony Soprano does terrible things, but we’re all on his side on various issues.

Caleb (18:52): Yeah, especially with Breaking Bad and all the anti-heroes.

Debbi (18:56): Breaking Bad? Better Call Saul.

Caleb (19:00): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Better Call Saul. Yeah. I think what Franzen does that truly blows my mind is that they’re much more ordinary, nasty people. They’re just kind of the crappy people that you know as opposed to with Breaking Bad and The Sopranos, which I agree, both those are amazing and Better Call Saul. They’re –

Debbi (19:24): Bigger forces.

Caleb (19:25): The crime world and there’s larger forces at play and it’s somewhat escapist versus when I’m reading Freedom, Freedom takes place in Minnesota near where I grew up, and it’s just very relatable. And the people’s bad qualities are bad qualities that you know in people. I don’t know any mobsters, but I know people like the people in Freedom and they’re crappy in the same way that people are crappy in Freedom. And he just captures it though in a way that … I can’t even put words to it.

Debbi (19:56): Yeah, I know what you’re saying. Yeah. Ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances, things like that, are interesting to capture. Or just the ordinary conflicts that people endure in daily life sometimes make good material.

Caleb (20:15): Absolutely.

Debbi (20:16): Strangely enough. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in writing for a living?

Caleb (20:24): I mean, I don’t know that this is very profound, but just do it. So many people just talk about doing these things and they don’t just sit down and do it. And you’re going to realize it’s not as glamorous. It’s not catching the muse like you imagine it to be. But in many ways that makes it more rewarding.You sit down and grind and at the end of a lot of hours of work, you have a novel. And so I’ve talked to a ton of people who’d say, “I would love to write a novel,” or other big life things, but they just never actually do it.

(21:03): Just actually take that first step and then take the next and the next and keep the momentum going, don’t slow down. And even when you get stuck, keep on grinding away. You asked about my writing routine. I mean, I normally try and write two hours, at least three to four days a week, but sometimes that week will go great and I’ll produce a few thousand words, but I know that there have been many weeks where I turned around and deleted everything I wrote that week or I was trying to grind and nothing would come and by the end of the week I had 200 words. So you just got to push through those moments. And honestly, I don’t think that they go away unless you sit down and grind through them. At least they don’t for me. You got to power through.

Debbi (21:53): Yeah. I think it was, I’m trying to remember the name of the author who said, inspiration doesn’t come to him. He has to hunt it down with a club.

Caleb (22:05): Yeah, that’s good. I like that.

Debbi (22:07): It was Jack something. Somebody famous that I’m blanking out on.

Caleb (22:13): Yeah.

Debbi (22:14): I hate that.

Caleb (22:15): Hunting it down with a club sounds like Jack London, right?

Debbi (22:17): Jack London, that’s it. That’s the one. Yeah, there goes the mind. Oh well. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up? By the way, do you use an outline when you write?

Caleb (22:33): No, that’s a great question. Yes-ish, but I don’t follow it hard and fast. But I do get gigantic artist pads, the biggest one you can get at the art store. You’re not getting this puppy at Target. You got to go to the specialized art store to get this gigantic one. And then I’ll outline the whole thing on that sheet of paper. But also I recognize that as I go, sometimes the characters develop in ways you’re not expecting. Sometimes the plot develops in ways you’re not expecting. So do I follow the outline broadly? Yes. But if it feels like the story should head in a different direction, I don’t hesitate to change direction with it and then –

Debbi (23:15): Absolutely.

Caleb (23:16): When I need to.

Debbi (23:17): It’s really like just having a little roadmap and then you realize, oh, I don’t really want to end up there. I want to end up here instead.

Caleb (23:24): That’s exactly right. Yeah.

Debbi (23:27): Yeah. Personally, I think it’s a great way of keeping yourself going if you know that there’s another place that you have to get to on that outline.

Caleb (23:35): Yes. And I think when you sit down at the beginning of your two hours that you’re going to write that day, it’s less daunting if you have a general idea of where you’re headed as opposed to, “All right, I’m going to sit down and write for two hours today, but I have no freaking idea where I’m going to go. ” It’s much more intimidating.

Debbi (23:54): It’s much more intimidating.

Caleb (23:55): Yeah.

Debbi (23:56): If you have some idea, you can always play around with that idea and maybe go in a slightly different direction or not, depending. It’s going to depend on where the characters take you.

Caleb (24:07): That’s right. And then if it’s an outline, if I’m out on a run or playing golf or I’m somewhere off on my own and my mind is kind of wandering, I can outline the story in my head. I can’t write a scene in my head, but I can outline where the story’s going in my head. So it’s a good way to do some work on my writing even when I’m not sitting down and doing my two hours of grinding it out.

Debbi (24:35): Yeah, I’ve noticed that if I’m really stuck on something, sometimes if I walk or even just take a shower, something where I’m doing something entirely different, it’ll just come to me. Did you think about doing this? Oh, no.

Caleb (24:50): That is so true.

Debbi (24:51): Sometimes it’ll just come to you, a solution of some sort that you can try out.

Caleb (24:58): It’s amazing how many breakthroughs you have while you’re in the shower washing your hair and all of sudden it’s like, oh my God.

Debbi (25:03): I know. What is it about showers? What is it about that kind of thing? I don’t know. It’s an interesting thing. Well, I want to thank you for talking with us today, Caleb. I really appreciate it. Thank

Caleb (25:17): Thank you so much for having me, Debbi. So I appreciate it.

Debbi (25:19): I was happy to have you on. So thank you so much and stick around. We’ll do a bonus episode for Patreon supporters.

Caleb (25:28): That sounds wonderful. Awesome.

Debbi (25:29): Excellent. Excellent. All right then. Well, everybody, thank you for listening. I want to thank everybody who supports me on Patreon and Substack. I would like to also request that if you could, please leave a review for the podcast if you enjoyed it because they do help us. Until next time when I have M M DeLuca on as my guest, I’d like you to wish you all a good two weeks and take care. Happy reading and I’ll be seeing you.

View Details

My guest this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is thriller author Jennifer Lycette.

Check out her book titles: The Algorithm Will See You Now and The Committee Will Kill You Now. So … clearly a cozy writer? 🙂 Nope, medical thrillers.

Transcripts available for download to all free and paid Patreon members.

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today is a doctor who writes medical thrillers with a high tech edge. Author of The Algorithm Will See You Now and The Committee Will Kill You Now. It’s a pleasure to introduce my guest, Jennifer Lycette. Hi, Jennifer. How are you doing today?

Jennifer (01:14): I’m good. Thank you so much for having me.

Debbi (01:16): I’m pleased to have you on. Believe me, I’m always pleased to hear from the medical community as well as medical writers, even though I can’t watch medical shows to save my life anymore. They just make me too tense. Thank you so much for being with us today. I get the feeling from the titles of your books that you might have the tiniest bit of concern about how technology could affect or is affecting the practice of medicine. Is that—

Jennifer (01:45): Yes, I think that’s fair to say. I enjoy using fiction to explore complicated scenarios both from the technology and the ethical standpoint.

Debbi (02:02): I can appreciate that. Yeah. The ethical standpoint is often a really great place to find those conflicts that you can use in fiction. The titles alone almost sell the books if you ask me, but they are so intriguing. What prompted you to start writing these stories in particular?

Jennifer (02:24): Gosh, that’s such a good question. So I can’t really identify any one moment, but I started writing the first one, which was Algorithm about 10 years ago and I had started writing creative nonfiction as sort of a professional outlet and I’ve written some essays about that, like going through professional burnout and discovering writing as I think I’ve heard other authors on your show talk about, and for a lot of us, I think writing is in some ways some form of therapy. And so I was really enjoying that writing and connecting with colleagues. And then I had this idea that I wanted to reach people outside of medicine. And so I think like a lot of new authors, I didn’t know how hard it would be to write a novel, but I sort of grew up reading a lot of thrillers and medical thrillers, Robin Cook and all this, and I thought, well, maybe I could write a medical thriller. And so I just thought of the idea and started writing one day.

Debbi (03:45): They just come to you. Yeah.

Jennifer (03:46): Yes.

Debbi (03:47): They really do. They both take place in Seattle, I noticed, but it’s not the same protagonist. Is it the same hospital or different hospitals?

Jennifer (04:01): Yeah, so it’s different hospitals and different protagonists, but they are connected. So they each can be read as standalones. But the second book, The Committee is actually a prequel going back 30 years to tell the story of the antagonist in Algorithm. So I think just all the character work I did to develop her, there’s another minor character that as I was writing Algorithm, I just was like, I think these two had a relationship in the past, but that’s just one line in Algorithm. And so it just got in my head and I was like, I want to write their story. And so I went back and wrote, so they’re middle-aged in Algorithm. And then I went back and wrote when they were young residents in Seattle and just to tell more of the story of how the antagonist whose name is Dr. Mara Maddox, how she ended up being the person she is in Algorithm.

Debbi (05:12): That’s really interesting. I love the way you went back and did backstory in a prequel. That’s fantastic. That’s an excellent approach because so often we get to know our protagonists better as we write.

Jennifer (05:26): Yes.

Debbi (05:26): Am I right?

Jennifer (05:28): Yes. There was all this that didn’t end up on the page in Algorithm and I was like, I think I have an additional book here.

Debbi (05:37): How I wrote the book of Algorithm.

Jennifer (05:41): Yes.

Debbi (05:43): This is what I went through. Let’s see. What is it about Seattle that made you choose that as a setting?

Jennifer (05:53): That’s a great question. So I think a lot of it was just, it’s near and dear to my heart because that’s where I went to medical school. And I think also I wanted to write something a place I was familiar with, even though I don’t live there anymore. And I think also in a lot of audiences’ minds just because of some of the other media and shows and things, there’s kind of a link between Seattle and medical.

Debbi (06:26): That’s right. I keep forgetting about that show that’s named after a book. So to speak. Yeah, I did a little research on you actually. I noticed that you are originally from Alaska.

Jennifer (06:41): Yes, very true.

Debbi (06:43): I thought it was fascinating. And you went to medical school at a school that would take students from places that did not have medical schools in their state. I thought that that was very unique and interesting.

Jennifer (06:58): Yeah, that’s absolutely right. So I went to University of Washington Medical School, but they have a program called WWAMI that stands for Washington, Wyoming, Alaska, Montana, and Idaho. And so those states don’t have their own medical schools. So they basically have a certain number of applicant spots for each of those states because they want to hopefully encourage graduating doctors to go back and practice in those states or in more rural environments. So yeah.

Debbi (07:38): I can’t help but be reminded of the show Northern Exposure. Did you ever see that?

Jennifer (07:46): I never watched the whole series, but yes, I’ve seen some episodes back some time ago, I guess now.

Debbi (07:55): Yeah, that was a very amusing look at Alaska and somebody who is from a very non-Alaska place as I can speak to from experience having lived in New York. Oh boy, going to Alaska from New York would be quite the shock.

Jennifer (08:14): I think so.

Debbi (08:14): Yeah. And for a while you had a rural medical practice in Astoria, correct?

Jennifer (08:22): Yeah, that’s correct. So I didn’t end up going to practice in Alaska, although I did do some clinical rotations up there when I was in training, but I did practice for some years in rural Oregon.

Debbi (08:43): Yeah. So that must’ve been quite an experience dealing with rural medicine. I mean, some of the stuff in the things that you talked about in your interview were just like, yeah, that’s the way it is out there. Not everybody has equal opportunity, equal access to good medical treatment or know the right way to take care of themselves.

Jennifer (09:10): Yeah, I think that certainly influenced my book idea with Algorithm because I had previously worked in a metro practice and even though I grew up in Alaska, I grew up in Anchorage, which is a fairly moderate size city. And so I think I was a bit naive about some of the limitations of living in non-urban areas and talking with colleagues about, like you said, equal access and even equal access to technology. I don’t want to necessarily go into any deep dives about AI or anything. I think people are probably a bit tired of that. But even just, for example, I had many patients who didn’t have internet, so even checking the patient portal to check their appointment, they didn’t have that. And so just really basic things that I think maybe when at least I know for me, living somewhere where that’s taken for granted, that just experiencing that and how we need to make sure we’re still making sure everybody has equal access and equity. It’s not as straightforward as it at first seems, I think, even in the US.

Debbi (10:46): Yeah, definitely. And now you’re in British Columbia and you have a medical practice there, I assume?

Jennifer (10:56): Yes, I am still practicing. I’m a medical oncologist, so I still practice. And so yeah, a lot of writing happens on weekends, but—

Debbi (11:09): I was going to ask you about your writing routine. Do you have a set number of hours you like to write or a time you like to write?

Jennifer (11:21): I would say not typically. There are times when I’m drafting that if I’m really on a good streak, I will try to just hold myself to a thousand words a day. But the reality is just there are some evenings I come home from work and I have enough energy to write and then other times I don’t. And so I just have to tell myself that’s okay. And then I just write on the weekends. So I tend to be someone who just might do a really big chunk on one day and then not anything for some days. So I’m probably not a good role model.

Debbi (12:04): Oh, I always figure everybody has their own way. Some people are cranking out 20,000 words a day and then other people are just like, I write whenever I can.

Jennifer (12:16): Yeah.

Debbi (12:17): So it’s like whatever works for you works for you. What sort of books do you tend to gravitate toward reading?

Jennifer (12:27): Oh gosh, I actually read pretty much across all genres except I will say I don’t tend to like horror and I like thrillers obviously, but I don’t tend to like real violent or serial killer types. But often I actually, unless I’m reading for writing research, I tend to actually gravitate these days toward lighter cozy fiction.

Debbi (13:09): I get it. Yeah, I can kind of get it. Yeah. I’ve been reading some very funny mysteries lately. It’s like, oh, these are relief, relief from the stress of everything.

Jennifer (13:24): Very true. Yes. I find that, too.

Debbi (13:28): Okay. I have to ask, are you a big fan of The Pitt?

Jennifer (13:33): So it’s so funny you would ask that.

Debbi (13:35): Is it as good as everybody says?

Jennifer (13:38): So like you kind of mentioned a little while ago, so I will admit I don’t watch medical shows because for me it’s like being at work. So I have family members that are huge fans of The Pitt. And back when I was in training and ER was the big show, I did watch that. That was probably the last one I watched because then as I got farther along in my training, like we were just talking about with reading, I don’t actually watch a lot of shows. So if I make time for a show, it’s usually something just kind of like comedy or light. So I feel like I would be a fan of The Pitt if I watched it and I know I’d probably immediately get sucked into it as my family members try to get me to, but I’m just like, “Oh, I just had 12 hours of that today.”

Debbi (14:39): That’s right. Yeah, this is too much reality. Well, that’s a change for television actually. I’m not sure whether that’s good or bad, but yeah, I keep hearing wonderful things about it.

Jennifer (14:55): Yeah, me too.

Debbi (14:56): Are you working on anything now in terms of books, projects?

Jennifer (15:02): Yeah, so I’m a very slow drafter and reviser. So each of my books from concept to publication took about three years. So I’ve been working on something for the past few years and I am to the point where I think it’s getting close. So it’s not in this world, it’s something new. It is, I guess I’ll call it a speculative thriller, but it’s not necessarily a medical thriller. So I was maybe trying to write something a little more mainstream, but it’s almost there, not quite out there. So I feel like I’m not ready to put it out there, but maybe soon.

Debbi (15:47): So a thriller that isn’t as medical or is somewhat medical?

Jennifer (15:53): Yeah, so I would say it’s medically adjacent, the characters are not healthcare professionals or anything like that.

Debbi (16:06): Interesting. Let’s see. So a lot of people would like to write but don’t know how to get started. What advice would you give to encourage these people to get started? What would you say to them?

Jennifer (16:21): Yeah, so a couple of things, I guess. I guess the first thing would be just write even if it’s for yourself because unless you come from a background of writing, like for me, which I did not, you have to just dive in and then you’ll learn from your mistakes. And I think also getting a supportive community around you. I was very fortunate that after I had been writing Algorithm for about a year, I entered a contest that doesn’t exist anymore, but some people might remember it called Pitch Wars and I got assigned a mentor and then through that I met other writers and then some of them I’m still in touch with and we have an online writing group and I realized for that year I was just trying to do it on my own, how much better it is now to have the support. And then also when you connect with other writers like that, you realize that everyone else, even those who are successfully published, they go through rejections and doubt and all those things, so you don’t feel so alone.

Debbi (17:48): Exactly.

Jennifer (17:52): I think a lot of opportunities nowadays for online writing groups or a lot of local libraries have drop-in writing groups. It might be a way that you can connect if you’re just starting out of the blue like I did without really knowing anyone or knowing what you’re doing.

Debbi (18:14): Yeah, it can often start with a local writing group or organization. I know that’s the way it started for me.

Jennifer (18:21): Yeah, absolutely.

Debbi (18:21): It really probably started with a class I took actually at a community college. That’s really where it kind of started and people in the class got together and formed a writer’s group, of course.

Jennifer (18:34): Yeah, absolutely.

Debbi (18:35): That’s what writers tend to do. They form these little groups. They prop each other up.

Jennifer (18:42): Yes.

Debbi (18:43): Let’s see. What’s the best writing advice you’ve ever gotten?

Jennifer (18:49): Oh gosh, that’s such a good question. I’ve got to think for a minute. I think probably the best advice which is not unique and I think out there a lot is just, which is really hard sometimes, but don’t get so attached. Sometimes one of the hardest things is if something isn’t working in your story, but it’s your favorite thing or maybe the thing that you thought was going to be the best thing and then it’s just not working and you just have to cut it and that’s okay. But I think that’s another thing with meeting other writers is getting that feedback and beta reading. And I think too, I guess this would be a second thing with advice would be when you get feedback, take some time to process it because I’ve found for myself so many times when I first read through it, everything feels negative I think just because it all feels so personal.

(20:01): So then I usually will skim it and then I’ll set it aside and then I’ll come back a couple days later and I’ll look at it again and then it’s like your brain works better or something. Then I’m like, “Oh, well, this actually wasn’t negative at all. This was really positive. This is really helpful.” So I think just taking time to process that kind of feedback and knowing that I think a lot of our brains work that way as writers. We just tend to see the negative first.

Debbi (20:35): Yeah, it is hard sometimes, especially, I don’t know what it is about screenwriting, but boy, that is a tough arena to impress anybody in. Let’s see. Is there anything else that you’d like to cover that we haven’t talked about?

Jennifer (20:56): Oh gosh.

Debbi (20:57): Is there anything you want to talk about?

Jennifer (21:01): Not that I can think of. I just appreciate so much that you invited me on and it’s just so fun to meet you. Again, just I think the writing community is just one big, large, supportive community, which is so wonderful. So I guess to anyone out there who’s maybe feeling stuck, just keep writing.

Debbi (21:26): That’s right. Write on. Thank you. Those are great words to end with. Thanks a lot. I really appreciate you being here, Jennifer. Thanks.

Jennifer (21:35): Thanks again for having me. It was fun.

Debbi (21:38): It was my pleasure, believe me. And to everyone who is supporting the Crime Cafe on Patreon and Substack, I want to thank you so much. To everyone who’s listening, thank you for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review. They do help. Until next time when my guest will be Caleb Husmann, take care and happy reading. Be seeing you.

View Details

My guest this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is Clay Stafford.

Check out the plans for the upcoming Killer Nashville conference, which celebrates its 21st anniversary. So, it can now legally drink whatever it wants. 🙂

Transcripts available for download to all free and paid Patreon members.

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. Before we get started with the show, I’d like to announce that my third Erica Jensen novel is out now. It came out on June 6th as an ebook. It’s also coming out in print, hopefully soon, probably sometime next week. So be on the lookout for that. And with that, I just hope that you will check the book out and consider giving it a read. Now let me introduce my first guest for season 12. You could say he’s even a regular here. He’s just part of the show now, really. He is in fact a bestselling author, award-winning filmmaker, and creator of Killer Nashville, a fantastic conference that’s held every year in Nashville. It’s Clay Stafford. Hi, Clay. How are you doing?

Clay (01:46): Hi, Debbi. I’m doing great. Yeah, I’ve decided that I’m just going to move in, so I hope you have a spare bedroom or something.

Debbi (01:53): Dear me.

Clay (01:56): Congrats on the new book.

Debbi (01:59): I’m sorry?

Clay (02:00): Congratulations on the new book.

Debbi (02:01): Oh, well, thank you very much. It took long enough for me to get it finished in between trying to tweak screenplays and do other things in between.

Clay (02:09): There’s always something going on, always juggling.

Debbi (02:12): It’s weird. I mean, it’s like, okay, I’m going to go back to the book now and where was I? And who was this person? I got to go back and check. And I would find things that would change and it was like, oh my God. You really have to spend some time with a novel to really get it done.

Clay (02:34): Yeah, you do.

Debbi (02:36): It’s like trying to pitch a TV show, actually. TV shows are so dependent on characters that it’s just really, unless you really, really know your characters and where they’re going, there’s just no point. And you really have to know this stuff like the DNA of the whole world you’re creating in a sense. So it’s really interesting. But enough about me and my thoughts about screenwriting. It’s very good to see you. And I was going to say, how many decades have you been running Killer Nashville? And then I looked and I realized it was two.

Clay (03:16): Decades. Yeah, started in 2006.

Debbi (03:18): That’s amazing.

Clay (03:20): Our 21st year. It’s funny how numbers work like that because 2006, 2026, but yet it’s 21. So I don’t know how math works, but …

Debbi (03:31): Oh, wow.

Clay (03:32): Yes.

Debbi (03:33): Oh, wow. Okay. So 21 years. Ooh.

Clay (03:36): Years.

Debbi (03:37): Darn.

Clay (03:40): I’m like 20 years ago today.

Debbi (03:43): Yeah, I guess so since you started on The Zero. Yeah, that’s kind of like counting the centuries there. Interesting. Oh, math. Yeah. So what was it like at the beginning versus now? I mean, how many people signed up for the first one and how are you doing now?

Clay (04:05): We had about 70 people that showed up the first year and then we started climbing and really our cap this year is 500.

(04:19): And we sell out. We’ve been selling out for the past four years now. And so we will definitely sell out and I think we’re going to sell out. Even somebody I was talking to today said we may sell out at the conference by the end of June and the conference is not even until August. So any of your listeners or viewers out there that want to come to Killer Nashville, better check out the website and maybe move forward because we may be selling out early this year, but we sell out every year. And part of it had to do with the venues because they only cap a certain amount and we had only so many conference rooms. And so the first year we had a linear session where it was like class and then another class and another class.

(05:13): Now we have 11 sessions going concurrently. So you got a choice of 11, you have to pick one and that goes on for the full four days of the conference. And so there’s a lot of sessions that are going on. So we’ve expanded since in the past two decades into what we’re offering as well as the increase in attendance. But we could have more people there if we opened it up. But those pesky fire marshals, they only say you can have so many people in there at the same time. And so they know what’s going on. But I think we’re at the Embassy Suites in Cool Springs area and they’re incredibly nice and they’ve refurbished the entire hotel. I mean, gutted the hotel this past year. We were the last event before they were waiting for us to finish and the next day they had the demolition crew in there tearing everything out.

(06:14): So everything is completely brand new. They added restaurants and the whole little village section around it. So the place is really great. So we rent out the whole hotel and then it’s like a fishbowl. As you know, everybody in there, 100% of them are writers or publishers, editors, attorneys, publicists, and everybody is in there together and you just really get to network and get to know people. And so you asked how to expand from 2006 to now.

(06:52): It has gone in many different directions and the expansion’s been good. I can’t believe we’re still around after 21 years. I never thought when the first one, I never looked ahead and thought, well, 21 years from now, I’ll still be doing this. I didn’t have that in mind, but it’s a blast. I love it. I enjoy every year. What’s changed there? There’s more opportunities for writers to find publishers, to find agents through Killer Nashville than we did back in 2006. And so part of the fun for me has always been, as you know, seeing people get a deal, seeing somebody reach a goal that they had and knowing that Killer Nashville and the attendees at Killer Nashville, not just me or not even me, had something to do with the confluence of events that caused that to happen. And I think that it’s been 21 years of seeing people’s lives transformed that in what I think is the most noble profession of all being a writer and being a purveyor of ideas. And so it has just been a joy ride for me. And so I look forward to 20 years more. We’ll see.

Debbi (08:29): That’s fantastic. Yeah, that’s great. I can really appreciate what you’re saying because it is wonderful when you can help somebody out with something, give some knowledge to somebody that really helps them out. I’ve done some mentoring with people in my alumni, alumni mentoring, that’s the kind of thing. And it’s the kind of thing I’d like to continue to do actually. Well,

Clay (09:00): Well, it’s fulfilling.

Debbi (09:03): It is.

Clay (09:04): I think that’s very good.

Debbi (09:08): By the way, where can I find your films or film?

Clay (09:12): Most of them are from PBS and NBC, CBS, ABC, and a lot of them are not available anywhere. And I have absolutely no control over that because I do not own the rights. It costs, the economics of it. People say we produce a film and throw it on Netflix. Actually, you pay Netflix to put it on there. And if the production company like PBS, PBS has a lot of my stuff. If they decided to pay Netflix or whoever, any streaming service, then you would be able to see it, but I don’t have the rights to it, I can’t stream it or put it on anything. So that answers your question.

Debbi (10:05): Oh, that’s too bad. But you have made films.That’s cool.

Clay (10:10): A few films. I mean, over different kinds between documentaries and episodic TV and stuff, probably about a hundred different credits. And I understand some of the stuff that I used to act in, I got a royalty check from The Guild for performances that are showing in Japan of all places,

(10:38): Not in the US and not Japan of all places, but of all places, why isn’t it showing in the US? I don’t know. But anyway, stuff is out there, but it’s really, content has changed so much in the decades that I’ve been in this business. And there are tons, if you’re an old film fanatic such as myself, there are tons of TV shows and films that were major when I was growing up that you can’t find anywhere because it just costs money to put them up on a streaming platform unless the company is NBC or Paramount or something and has their own streaming network. So there’s a whole bunch of deal-making things that have to go into all that. And unfortunately, creators don’t always have the leverage to be able to be involved in those discussions. I took a long way to answer your question.

Debbi (11:52): That’s okay. You covered some points that are very interesting. We could really get into that, but instead I will just mention that you have a podcast now.

Clay (12:03): I do have a podcast and I’m very excited about that and it’s gotten favorable results so far. People are actually listening to the podcast, but it’s an extension of what I’m doing. I’m talking with bestselling authors just similar to what you do and getting some good perspectives on the industry and you can, of course, stream it on any podcast platform. And I’m just always looking for ways to try to keep getting the information out there to the people that need it. So I mean, that’s what Killer Nashville is all about. So the podcast was a natural evolution on that. And then Killer Nashville Magazine is now going to be an ePub. Starting with the July one issue, that you can purchase on any platform, Amazon or Google or Apple, all of those easing platforms.

(13:16): And so that’s an exciting thing as well because we’re getting more exposure for our writers by doing that. And that’s really one of the things that I’ve done. I’ve been really happy. I mean, we’ve gotten picked for best mystery anthologies of the year and all kinds of stuff. So we discover a lot of great talent. And for your listeners, if they’re interested in submitting, we would love to have … I mean, we’re actively looking for submissions in all different things from short stories to craft to even novellas to flash fiction poetry. Look on killernashvillemagazine[dot]com and you can find all the stuff that we’re looking for. And we love discovering new voices and publishing established voices and take all of them equally in what we’re doing.

(14:17): But yeah, that’s expanding and there’s a couple other things that are in the works. So next year when we talk, we’ll be talking about some different things

Debbi (14:28): The world will have changed some more.

Clay (14:32): But yeah, so there’s been a lot of expansion. There’s another thing, how is it different since 2006? We got a podcast going, got an e-magazine going and we get tons of people. It’s Killer Nashville International Writers Conference and we have probably, I don’t know, 10% of our well-known, more than that, probably about maybe 15% of our demographics are outside the US from all parts of the world. So that’s been a major expansion.

Debbi (15:13): Very, very interesting. Do you see any change in what people are looking for from the conference?

Clay (15:21): I try to stay up-to-date and of course I do a lot of consulting and I’m always involved in the industry and I know a couple of people and so I get to hear the inside scoop on things. And so I always try to make the conference applicable to right now and even to take it beyond a lot of conferences are how to write great protagonists and stuff and that’s very important. But some of the different aspects of today, even social implications of writing that we get into academic type classes as well as just the craft classes. And then of course we got the forensic classes and forensics is always moving forward in terms of what they’re able to do in terms of uncovering crime. So that’s always contemporary and we’re trying to stay on top of all of that as well as legal issues pertaining to crime and crime punishment and justice and even in cases, some cases of injustice, try to cover all of that with all of that focus toward how to make somebody a more informed writer in terms of making sure that everything they write is plausible, especially in the crime business and making sure that everything is entertaining, which is just a basic literary thing. So we cover a lot of ground.

Debbi (17:02): Interesting. Do you have any thoughts about what’s going on with AI and the copyright implications of using it?

Clay (17:14): I think that any tool can be an asset and any tool can also be abused. And I have never seen a piece of AI material that I felt sounded like a real person wrote it. It’s absent of voice. So I know that on some platforms people are writing AI stories and selling them and you’re going to have that. You’re going to have people doing that sort of thing. But if you read it, it’s just for lack of a better word, very simplistic, if not some of it’s just downright trash. I’ve seen some things where people have to actually taken the AI formatting and just into a book and published it on a platform for people to purchase and they haven’t even taken the trouble to change the formatting or anything. It’s just laziness. But my son and I played an interesting game with AI, which is just fun for us.

(18:26): We go on an AI program and say, write a story about a romance where this happens and then something else happens and then there’s a murder and then there’s whatever. And we have a little party just hanging out listening to the stupid stories that we up with. So in terms of writing stories, which I think is what most writers are fearful of, it’s going to take our jobs, it’s going to take whatever. I don’t foresee that at all. Now AI is excellent if you say I am doing a plot on whatever it happens to be, where’s a great place to research this or what are three books that really can give me some insight into that? AI is great for giving you that. I mean, it’s got access to data and can compute faster than … It can compute faster in a few minutes than I can at what we used to do, go sit in the library and look at microfiche.

(19:44): Maybe who arrives first at a crime scene and AI can give you a list of who shows up and who gets called next and how that process works. So for that kind of stuff, AI is great, but when you start using it like that, it falls into Scrivener or any kind of a Word or docs. It just becomes a tool that you use, a research tool and there’s nothing wrong with that in terms of expediting what we used to laboriously have to do in libraries. And my eyes have crossed many times looking at that microfilm to do research on projects and now it’s just type it into an AI program and they can bring you up all sorts of leads that you can then just go investigate without having to do all that manual searching yourself. It’s been an incredible time changer.

Debbi (20:55): It is. Yeah, I agree. It’s amazing the sources you can find and the way you can organize information, it will give you take something and summarize it. Most of the time it comes out really good, really well.

Clay (21:13): And I will say, news seems to thrive on the bad things and it has to be something stirring the pot. And it was like, oh my gosh, cassettes have come out. My gosh, eight tracks are going to change the world. You remember eight tracks?

(21:44): And ebooks are the death of publishing. It’s audiobooks. Nobody’s going to be learning to read anymore. And so it’s always just people looking for something to talk. Let me give a message to your viewers out there. Instead of worrying about how ebooks are going to destroy the industry, which we’re not worried about now anymore, everybody’s found that they’re very lucrative. Let’s look at AI. How is it going to destroy the industry? Because there’s always some nefarious thing that’s coming to destroy the industry, but it doesn’t destroy the industry. This is a multi-billion dollar business. And instead of worrying about all of that stuff, it might be best if we reframed our minds and our time to write that next page and focus there instead of all the things first of all that we cannot control. Second of all, it’s just chatter, use any tool for the good purposes and don’t be stupid and use it for something that’s bad and don’t support the people who use it for something that’s bad.

(23:08): So that can apply to everything that’s been going on in the publishing industry since maybe the 1940s or if not before.

Debbi (23:19): Yeah, there have been so many changes.

Clay (23:23): Not that I have an opinion on the silliness of it,

Debbi (23:27): Of course not. Neither of us have opinions about the publishing industry for heaven’s sake. It’s simply delightful.

Clay (23:41): I don’t know how you feel, but I feel like I’ve got the best job in the world to be in the center of books that are coming out and books that are doing very well and authors that are trying to get there and writing my own stuff. I mean, for me, I can’t think of a better job. I’m just absolutely blessed. But somebody else in another profession is going to go, “Be a writer? That’s blessed?” But yeah, for me in my little world, publishing industry and the entertainment industry is an incredible place to be.

Debbi (24:19): Well, I quit practicing law just to become a writer because all my life I’d wanted to be one and I said, it’s about time I started, huh? Yeah. So I did. What is it that keeps you going without burning out?

Clay (24:39): Yeah, I absolutely love what I do. I think that’s what I said earlier. I am more of the Phineas and Ferb mentality, the 10-year-old boy mentality. I wake up every morning and say, okay, what am I going to do today? And I have incredible people, teammates that I work with and they make my day a pure joy and we all create together on various things and working on Killer Nashville and all that other stuff. And so I’m just surrounded with incredibly creative and wonderful people and doing something you love. If it’s work, then after a while it starts wearing you out. But if you’re playing then, and I’m a builder, I’m a creator, that’s what I’ve always done. And when you’re playing, it doesn’t feel like work. So it’s not unusual. I mean, we’ve talked before, most of my days are 14-hour days, Monday through Sunday, seven days a week.

(25:53): I don’t take days off and because I miss it. It’s like I get to show up and hang out with my friends. And so how do I prevent burnout? I don’t know. I’m just having too much fun.

Debbi (26:07): I understand actually. It’s really interesting because I’ve never been more engaged in a process than I was when I was directing my first movie and you just get so into the process that whatever is bothering you disappears. It’s really weird. It’s kind of like writing a novel. I mean, it’s like really just focusing on the thing that you’re doing and just getting into it and feeling that flow of creation. Really, there’s nothing like it.

Clay (26:45): One day I’m going to grow up and not be the 10-year-old boy anymore, but we’ll see when that happens.

Debbi (26:51): I know the feeling. I know the feeling. Is there anything you’d like to say that we haven’t covered?

Clay (26:58): No, I think I came with no agenda other than to be here.

Debbi (27:05): Well, I’m so glad that you came today and that you spent some time with us. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Clay.

Clay (27:11): Is there anything you want to cover that we haven’t covered?

Debbi (27:14): Oh, we can talk about that in the bonus round. How does that sound?

Clay (27:19): That works great.

Debbi (27:20): I love the bonus round. I get to ask all sorts of weird questions. Let’s see. It was really great to see you, Clay.

Clay (27:30): Same here. Thank you for having me back on your show.

Debbi (27:33): Well, thanks for being here. And to all my subscribers, whether you’re on Substack or Patreon, thank you so much. Thank you to everyone who’s listening. If you enjoyed the episode, please consider leaving a review. They’re helpful. They really are. And so until next time when my guest will be Jennifer Lycette, take care and happy reading. Be seeing you.

Support the podcast on Patreon!

View Details

My guest this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is Gregory Poirier.

Check out what Gregory has to say about screenwriting, as well as crime writing!

You can download a copy of the transcript here.

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. Our guest today is an acclaimed screenwriter, director, and producer whose work spans film and television. His credits include National Treasure: Book of Secrets, Knox Goes Away, and Rosewood. A graduate of the USC School of Theater and the UCLA Master’s program in screenwriting, his debut novel, A Thousand Cuts will be coming out very soon. In fact, you can probably pre-order it today. It’s my pleasure to have with me, and I forgot to ask how you pronounce your name, so please just say it.

Gregory (01:31): Gregory Poirier.

Debbi (01:33): Gregory Poirier. Thank you so much. The one thing I forgot to do at the beginning of this.

Gregory (01:40): I pronounce it a little more technically than that in France, but …

Debbi (01:43): True. Yes, yes. France is … Yeah, they would do it totally right, and we do it totally wrong, but whatever. Sorry about that, France. So anyway, thanks for being here today.

Gregory (01:58): Yeah, my pleasure.

Debbi (01:58): After a career in film and television, what prompted you to write your first novel?

Gregory (02:04): Well, it actually was sort of an organic thing that came up. I mean, there’s a lot of conversation now amongst me and my friends about how this business of ours is changing, and it’s becoming a lot more challenging because it’s shrinking, shrinking, shrinking.

Debbi (02:23): Oh, yes.

Gregory (02:24): And I’ve been very fortunate that it hasn’t shrunk me out yet, But you never know. And I actually had this idea for this story and I was trying to work it as a screenplay. And I just at some point just decided that the sort of specific voice that I was going for and the sort of tone that I was hoping for wasn’t really coming across that well in the screenplay version. And I finally decided that it’s an action thing. The way that I started this thing was I wanted to do a film that was the film that Humphrey Bogart or Robert Mitchum or one of those guys would make if they were alive now, something with a real sort of noir weigh into it, but with a modern sensibility, modern action, all that kind of stuff. And so that’s what I was trying to achieve. And for whatever reason, it wasn’t coming across. I know I can write a noir because Knox Goes Away was a noir, and that’s probably the favorite movie of mine that I’ve ever done.

(03:33): But this was something different and it just wasn’t working. And I was sitting with my gang of writer friends at the Farmer’s Market one week and one of them said, why don’t you write a novel? And I thought I might have the perfect thing to try that. And so I just basically started it as something to try and to see if this story worked better in that form, which it definitely did. And that’s how we got here.

Debbi (04:02): Why do you think it works better as a novel?

Gregory (04:05): I think that there’s a lot of reasons, but I think for one thing, I think it’s easier to exert your own voice in this form of writing as opposed to in a screenplay. I mean, I feel like Knox, to bring that movie up again, it’s probably the closest thing that I’ve ever done where it was sort of my voice that came across. But a lot of time you’re trying to not inject your own voice into it. For instance, Rosewood, which was a historical drama, needed to have a certain cadence, needed to have a certain feel and way of speaking and all of that kind of stuff. And it’s not me. You’re purely, at that point, a writer, which is great. I enjoy that very much. But this, I just wanted to inject some of my personality into it more. And that’s definitely easier in a book than it is in a screenplay.

(05:03): And in a screenplay, you write it and then it goes through actors, it goes through directors, it goes through editors. I mean, there’s a lot of people between you and the audience, whereas in this thing, you’re talking directly to your reader, which I really enjoyed a lot.

Debbi (05:19): And I take it that you worked with an editor who got what you were trying to say.

Gregory (05:25): Absolutely. I worked with Keith Wallman at Diversion Books, and he was very, very into what I was trying to do. He understood it right away and was very supportive.

Debbi (05:39): It’s fascinating how the fields differ in that respect, how little of yourself in a sense goes into screenwriting. At the same time, how much of it, because where do these characters come from except from you? So we start with that and then people start to chip away at it a little bit.

Gregory (05:58): It’s also a really different type of writing. I mean, screenwriting is 100% external.

(06:07): All you can put on the page is what the audience sees and what the audience hears. You don’t get a chance … You need to bring out whatever the emotion of the character is and whatever their journey is and all that through those two things, what you see and what you hear. And that’s all you have. You don’t have this ability to delve into the inner monologue and to go into the past of everybody and to sort of really dig into these characters. So it’s a very highly technical form of writing. There’s very rigid structures to it. It’s just very different than this. And it’s not easy. I mean, it’s difficult to do, but it’s just different. And so this was a lot of fun.

Debbi (06:51): That is a very good point. I’m so glad you said that because that’s one of the things that I emphasize when I talk to people about screenwriting, about how different it is.

Gregory (07:00): Yeah, it’s totally—

Debbi (07:01): Similar, but different.

Gregory (07:04): The analogy I sort of use is that I’ve been an electrician for 35 years and I’ve been gathering all these electrician tools, and now I’m trying to take all the tools that I’ve gathered and do some plumbing.

Debbi (07:16): Exactly.

Gregory (07:19): You’re still trying to do something practical, but it’s a completely different form and you need different tools.

Debbi (07:26): And you hope there isn’t a leak in your pipe somewhere.

Gregory (07:28): Yeah.

Debbi (07:31): Somebody’s going to point that out to you. Let’s see. What attracted you to the spy genre? I love the spy genre.

Gregory (07:42): It’s interesting because this is a little bit spy genre, but it’s also, what it’s really about, it’s about a bunch of ex-spies. So it’s about a lot of people that have a lot of skills that they developed when they were working for the CIA that are now out of that world and are trying to figure out ways to use the things that they know how to do in a different way, which is why when we meet our main character, Max Starkey, he’s working as what I call a recovery man for the mob, basically. If they lose something or something gets stolen from them or whatever, he goes and he gets it back. And it’s like the only thing he was able to find in civilian life were the things that he learned how to do in the CIA were of use to him. So I do like the spy genre and I do like those kind of books, but this is really like a post-spy drama more.

(08:41): And at the same time, the other couple, I guess you would call them the antagonists in the book are the same thing. They’re people he knows from his past, but they’re also out and they’re using their contacts and their skills and all that kind of stuff to make a very, very good living, doing highly questionable things.

Debbi (09:04): Did you—

Gregory (09:06): I’m sorry?

Debbi (09:07): Oh, I’m sorry. I was just going to say, did you have to do a lot of research on the subject?

Gregory (09:12): I did. And a lot of the research that I did, I did years earlier for other things because I’ve been writing for a long time. I’ve been a screenwriter for 35 years and like every screenwriter, I have a lot of projects that came and went and never got made and that kind of thing. But I’ve been to Langley. I’ve met all these people. I’ve done all this stuff in my career over the years in research for other projects and stuff. So I didn’t have to really dig into that stuff too much. I know how Langley works. I know what the building looks like inside. I know I have all that stuff, but I did do a lot of research in terms of locations and tech stuff, like the things that I wanted to use in the book. I don’t know what you would call it, guns and hotels or whatever.

(10:17): I did do a lot of heavy duty research into that kind of stuff. And I like to be as realistic as possible in terms of it’s going to take this long to get from here to here, and these are the things we’re going to encounter on the way, and that kind of stuff. I like to make it as grounded as possible because it’s a bit of a fantastical story, but it takes place in the real world.

Debbi (10:40): Exactly.

Gregory (10:41): Yeah.

Debbi (10:43): Yeah.

Gregory (10:46): But I enjoy research. I like it.

Debbi (10:48): Me too. Yeah. It’s amazing what you find when you look.

Gregory (10:53): Well, my biggest problem with researching stuff is stopping.

Debbi (10:57): I know. It’s like, oh my God, this actually happened somewhere? Ooh, this is interesting.

Gregory (11:03): And I also, I’ve traveled a lot and I’ve traveled a lot in Southeast Asia, which is where the book is set. And so I was able to take a lot of experiences that I had down there and sort of incorporate them into the book in more dramatic ways. And than they happened to me obviously.

Debbi (11:20): Right, right. How do you structure your writing time? Do you have a time for writing? Do you have a schedule that you write on? How do you balance it with your other projects?

Gregory (11:33): For the first four hours a day, I berate myself constantly that I’m not writing. That’s the first step.

Debbi (11:41): I should try that. Maybe I’d be more relaxed.

Gregory (11:47): I walk around the house saying, “I bet Stephen King is writing right now.” But yeah, I tend to write about five hours, four to five hours a day is about my limit really.

(11:59): And I don’t really do a page count. I don’t put myself on that kind of thing unless I’m racing a deadline and say, okay, I have to do a chapter. I have to do two chapters or two scenes or whatever today. But for the most part, because I’m the kind of guy where I’ll sit down three days in a row and barely eke out three pages, and then on day four, I’ll write 20 pages or 25 pages. It’s just the way my rhythm works and I don’t understand it and I don’t really need to, just is what it is. But I also go through a couple weeks here and there where nothing comes out and then in a week I write a whole draft of something. I’m a very streaky writer, but I do try to sit down every afternoon for four or five hours and try to avoid playing bouncing balls and all that other fun stuff.

Debbi (12:56): Exactly.

Gregory (12:57): So I need that though. I need a structure like that. I have this nice spot here where you see me sitting right now, but I also write really well out in the world and even in busy places. I’m that cliche guy that likes to write in Starbucks. I like to write at our local library branch. I write really well in hotel lobbies and on airplanes. And I’m just, I don’t know, it’s almost like how if you want a toddler to fall asleep, you take them to a really busy restaurant and they sort of get overwhelmed and fall asleep. I think that’s kind of the same thing with me. If I go somewhere that’s busy, I have to shut everything out and it zones me in on what I’m working on.

Debbi (13:46): That’s interesting.

Gregory (13:47): Yeah.

Debbi (13:50): I’ve never been one to write out in coffee shops and things like that. So I always find it interesting when people do enjoy that. It’s kind of like-

Gregory (13:59): I’ll say my wife and I, we raised four kids and we’re all adults now, so sometimes the coffee shop is quieter than the house.

Debbi (14:08): There’s that. Our house is pretty quiet, I have to say that. Unless, of course, my husband is listening to loud music, but that’s okay. Loud music I can deal with.

Gregory (14:19): Can you write with music on?

Debbi (14:21): As long as it’s not too loud. I mean, if it’s on the background or something. If somebody’s listening to TV, I don’t care.

Gregory (14:28): Yeah, I tend to make, you don’t call them mix tapes anymore. I don’t know what you call them now, but playlists, I guess.

Debbi (14:36): Playlists, yeah.

Gregory (14:37): For things that I’m working on. And then I’ll listen to them, but not while I’m writing. I’ll listen to them in the car or while I’m puttering around and they sort of get you in the mood.

Debbi (14:49): Exactly. Yeah. Because sometimes when you hear music when you’re writing, it’s just a little too much stimulation or something. Too many things going on.

Gregory (14:57): Yeah, I get caught up in the lyrics and then I look down and go, “Well, I just wrote Welcome to the Hotel California. What the heck?”

Debbi (15:03): Where did that come from? Yeah. So is there a writer who has most inspired you as a writer?

Gregory (15:12): Ooh, boy. Well, it depends on which kind of writing you’re talking abo ut. Screenwriting would be different than … I’m a huge fan of guys like Preston Sturges, people like that. But in terms of books, I read so many books and I read so many different kinds of books. I’ll read anything, honestly. Right now, this is sort of a guilty little secret thing to say. I never read any of the Ayn Rand books. So right now I’m reading The Fountainhead for the first time at my age. But just because I thought, oh, that’s something I probably should read at some point before I kick the bucket.

Debbi (16:02): She was an interesting person.

Gregory (16:04): Yeah. Boy, oh boy, interesting writer too.

Debbi (16:07): Yes.

Gregory (16:08): But the stuff that I most enjoy reading, if I’m going to be a hundred percent honest, I love the Michael Connolly stuff. I love Bosch and Lincoln Lawyer. I love anything by Karin Slaughter. I love the Elvis Cole books. I love all those kind of things that are fun to read.

Debbi (16:27): Exactly.

Gregory (16:28): I mean, I’m enjoying this Fountainhead, but it does feel a little bit like some work I never got done and I need to do it. It’s an interesting read, but it’s not as fun as reading.

Debbi (16:40): Well, she’s very opinionated, was very opinionated. I will say that.

Gregory (16:46): I’ll definitely cleanse my palate with a Reacher book or something after this.

Debbi (16:50): I suggest you do so. Yeah. Take yourself out of that mindset fast. Let’s see. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in a writing career?

Gregory (17:02): Well, it depends on which kind of writing career you’re talking about. The advice might be slightly different for somebody who wants to go into screenwriting now, but my advice always used to be that if you wanted to be a screenwriter, you had to do absolutely nothing else. My advice used to be, if you can see yourself doing something else, go do that because unless this is the only thing you can see yourself doing, it’s going to be a really hard life and you’re probably not going to become successful at it unless it’s all you can think of doing. It’s the one thing that drives you. And I guess that’s still true, but I think nowadays I would counsel people to be a little more of an omnivore in terms of what they write. I think part of the thing that was responsible for this book that I wrote was that nobody will make anything now that doesn’t have IP.

(18:08): So I sort of thought, well, I’ll make some IP and then somebody will make a movie or a TV show out of it. But I think that just writing this as a script and sending it out and trying to sell it would be really hard in today’s market. So I would suggest just try writing all kinds of things, be a writer, be a writer of every form you can work on. And that’s going to be the easiest way for you. I mean, not easy, but it’s going to be the best way forward,

Debbi (18:42): It’ll be an easier way probably.

Gregory (18:43): Yeah. I mean, screenwriting right now is, the market has shrunk so much that even guys like me that have been doing it forever, I’m working still, but I’m having to find ways outside the traditional way to sort, oh, here’s somebody that has some money and wants to make a movie. Well, let’s do a script and let’s see what happens. And it’s a lot more spec writing now than it used to be, there a fewer jobs, but also at the same time, specs are harder to sell. So it’s a really challenging time, I think, to be trying to break in as a screenwriter. The other thing I would suggest if screenwriting is the goal is to just make some films, some small short films and sort of showcase yourself. You can also, if you can get short stories published, people are buying those to make films out of and TV shows out of. So that’s a way also.

Debbi (19:49): Absolutely.

Gregory (19:51): I would just say try to get a foothold in every way you can. That’s the only thing now. It used to be just keep writing screenplays, keep writing screenplays and eventually you’ll sell something. But I don’t think that model really holds anymore because-

Debbi (20:06): I think you’re right.

Gregory (20:07): Yeah. I would hate to be breaking in now. I’m sorry. I hope I don’t discourage anybody by saying that, but it’s tough right now.

Debbi (20:16): But that’s a very honest assessment that you gave, and I appreciate it very much because I think people need to know about this.

Gregory (20:25): At the same time, there’s nothing like it. A writing career is the greatest thing in the world. I’ve hated it every day and I’ve loved it every day, and it’s fabulous. If you can get it going, get it going, because it’s really a wonderful way to live a life.

Debbi (20:41): Well, that’s great. That’s a wonderful thought. Thank you. I wanted to ask you something else on the subject of … Oh, you mentioned IP. Talk for a second about the importance of IP. I’m always talking about this, and I never know if the message is really getting through. IP is kind of crucial now to-

Gregory (21:01): It is very crucial. And part of the reason for that is that the studios used to be run by people who love movies. Now it’s run purely by business people. They’re not movie fans. You go in there and try to reference some Clark Gable movie and they’ll look at you like you just came from Mars. They don’t know what that is. It’s a completely different set of people buying now. The studios used to be run by people who got into the movie business because they love movies. Now it’s people that have moved over from the restaurant branch of the corporation or whatever. It’s just people that are running it as a business and they’re all afraid to do the wrong thing.

(21:54): They used to develop scripts. They used to develop 25, 30 scripts for every movie they got made just because that’s how you mined good material, but they won’t do that anymore. They’re so afraid of everything. And so the IP thing is a crutch for them because they can go, well, look, this worked as a graphic novel or it worked as a book or it worked as whatever, a poem somebody scratched on the side of a building. And so if it fails, it’s not my fault because look, it already worked as this other thing. And so that’s why I think they really do look for IP now because it’s just a way for them to protect themselves.

Debbi (22:39): Hedging bets.

Gregory (22:42): The nice thing in the old days was they weren’t afraid to fail because you made a lot of movies and some of them didn’t make money, but a lot of them did. And you came out ultimately on the plus side of all of that. Nowadays, they’re going to make five movies a year and they’re so risk averse that they almost won’t buy a script unless you come in with a director and two actors attached. And it’s just this whole other thing now. It’s just a cover your ass business now. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to swear on your podcast.

Debbi (23:21): No, please do. I encourage it.

Gregory (23:23): Well then, no, I’m kidding. So it’s different. And I think that if you can, if you have the path to write something or to publish a short story or like I said, a graphic novel, if you can write a graphic novel and hook up with an artist and sell that first, then that can be your entry into … I mean, I’m not going to talk too much about it because it’s not public yet, but I wrote this book and it was optioned like that because there’s the thing and they can all point at the thing and say-

Debbi (24:05): We have a thing.

Gregory (24:06): There was a book. There’s a thing. Yeah, that’s what I always call it. I always say the main difference between screenwriting and writing this that I like, the main thing that I like about it is that you write the thing and there’s the thing

Debbi (24:21): That’s right.

Gregory (24:22): As opposed to the movies where you write the thing and then you wait two years for Dwayne Johnson to read it, and then you got to get a director. And then if you’re lucky in five years, there’s the thing on the screen. Maybe. Yeah. I said if you’re lucky. Yeah. But with this, you write it and they say, okay, here’s my thing. You either like my thing or you don’t like my thing, but there’s the thing.

Debbi (24:47): Exactly. Yeah. It is nice just to be able to create your own thing. Is there anything you’d like to add before we finish up?

Gregory (24:57): No, I just really enjoyed writing this and I really hope that people enjoy reading it. I read a lot and I tried to make this something that I would enjoy reading. I tried to put in some humor and some surprises and just make it a fun experience. So I’m hoping that that’s what happens is I don’t know how many people will read it, but I hope that the ones that do really have a good experience of it. And I’ve already written a second one, by the way.

Debbi (25:27): I was going to say, are you going to write another? That’s excellent.

Gregory (25:31): Yeah. Because I wrote this book on spec. I didn’t pitch it. And when they bought it, they contracted me for two books about the same character. So the second one is in the hands of the editors now, so we’ll see what they say.

Debbi (25:48): Wow. Well, that’s fantastic. Congratulations. That’s great.

Gregory (25:52): Thank you.

Debbi (25:53): Well, thank you so much for being with us today. I really appreciate it.

Gregory (25:57): Absolutely my pleasure. This was great.

Debbi (26:00): It was my pleasure too. Great to meet you.

Gregory (26:03): You, too.

Debbi (26:04): I would also like to thank my patrons on Patreon and my followers and subscribers on Substack. To everyone listening, if you follow me on Patreon, and it’s free to do that, I hope you’ll take a moment to fill out the short survey that I’ve provided there to get a better sense of what you’re looking for from the Crime Cafe. I can provide more interviews. I can provide more interviews with screenwriters. I can coach people on writing. Anything you’re interested in, let me know. This is the final episode of season 11. During the hiatus, I’ll give some more thought as to what the podcast could include as a perk for Patreon supporters. In the meantime, take care and happy reading. I will be seeing you.

View Details

My guest this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is Liz Lazarus.

Listen in on her remarkable story. ~~I’m ready to sign-up for karate class now.~~

You can download a copy of the transcript here.

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today has an engineering degree and a very interesting background in general. Among other things, she lived in Paris for three years and speaks fluent French. She has a pilot’s license and has produced a music CD. She’s also the author of several legal thrillers, including her latest, Dawn Before Darkness, which is available on Kobo, as well as in print or will be, I guess, in May.

Liz (01:28): Will be. May 26th. May 26th. Yeah.

Debbi (01:31): May 26th. There, you heard it now. You heard it there. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest, Liz Lazarus. I’m trying not to say Liz Lemon.

Liz (01:42): It’s a tongue twister. Liz Lazarus. Yeah.

Debbi (01:44): Liz Lazarus. It’s a lovely name. I love it. I love that name. That’s cool. What made you choose to write Thrillers?

Liz (01:54): Well, I would tell you, as you said, I’m an engineer. I’m probably the most reluctant author you’ll meet. I did not intend to be an author, and that may be the story for lots of people. But my first book, Free of Malice, was based on a real story, something that happened to me in college. And the novel actually was just me writing about what happened to start with. And then it turned into a novel. And I was going to be one and done after Free of Malice, and people that were reading it said, “Can’t wait for the next one.” And so I thought, okay. And it took me a while to agree to write the second one. And then once that was done, that was Plea for Justice, then came Shades of Silence and now Dawn Before Darkness. So now I feel like it’s a bad addiction.

Debbi (02:36): Wow. And each one of these is a standalone novel, not a series.

Liz (02:40): They are standalone. I like to give my characters closure and move on to new people.

Debbi (02:45): That’s cool. Yeah, I can appreciate that. Your first novel was inspired by a real event, correct?

Liz (02:53): Correct.

Debbi (02:53): What was it like to write in a fictional form about a thing that really happened?

Liz (03:00): It was therapy. So what happened in brief, I was in college at Georgia Tech. I was living off campus in this area called Home Park, which is a bunch of old houses, college students, a fair amount of riff raff. It wasn’t the safest area. And it was my senior year. I was going to sleep that night. I was living with two other girls in a house. And at four in the morning, I wake up to the sound of my bedroom door crashing open.

Debbi (03:26): Oh my God.

Liz (03:26): And I remember distinctly thinking, “Is this real?” And my next thought was, “This is real. You’ve got to deal with it. ” And you don’t know what you’re made of. Thank goodness I had fight in me, so I started fighting back. And eventually, at one point I write about this in the book, he says, “If you shut up, I’ll leave.” And I thought, “I’m not shutting up. I’m screaming louder.” And eventually he gave up and I left. So I didn’t have any self-protection at the time. I had a can of mace. I ran to the door, watched him run away into the darkness. And so for me, the writing about it, writing about the PTSD that I had. I didn’t even know what that word was, but I started writing about how I felt, what happened, how I would check every nook and cranny in the house.

(04:09): And I had said to my brother-in-law afterward, “If I’d had a gun, I would’ve shot him.” And he said, “Well, that may not have been self-defense. By the time you could have shot him, he was retreating off your property. You would’ve shot him in the back.” And that got me really curious about where’s that line between self-defense and vigilantism. And then my mother asked a question, which I won’t tell you because it gives away the ending, but she asked just the most out of the blue question. And I thought, wow, that would make a killer ending to a book. And that was it. And it took me years later. For anyone who’s thinking of writing a book, it took me years later. I did all those other things on my bucket list and the book just wouldn’t leave me alone, so I wrote it.

Debbi (04:51): Yeah. It’s kind of an itch that you got to scratch.

Liz (04:57): It wasn’t going away. And I had the plot in my mind, and it had been brewing in my mind for a while. And I’m super lucky. I had a lawyer who helped me with the legal part. I had a therapist who helped me with the EMDR therapy, which is in the book, therapy I never did. And so the whole thing was just a great project.

Debbi (05:16): Interesting. At this time, are you working at a regular job or do you have a business? I understand you were head of operations for a healthcare startup at some point.

Liz (05:31): I’ve done two startups. The last one, and now I’m currently on one, but we’re in engineering development, so they don’t need me a lot because I do more of the operations. So I’ve got a fair amount of free time at the moment. But my background was 20 years at GE Healthcare and 10 years consulting. And I do some consulting on my own, but when I’m writing a book or launching a book, I don’t do much consulting.

Debbi (05:53): Yeah. Yeah. You want to focus on that book. Yeah.

Liz (05:55): This is a job in of itself.

Debbi (05:57): It sure is. It sure is.

Liz (06:01): Yeah.

Debbi (06:02): I think a lot of people don’t really realize that when they get into this, how much of a job it is. Do you have a regular writing schedule?

Liz (06:12): I don’t. I do an outline. I am a plotter. I outline an Excel with color coding.

Debbi (06:18): Why am I not surprised?

Liz (06:19): Fair.

Debbi (06:21): You’re an engineer. You have a scientific mind, and I get it.

Liz (06:26): So because I do that, I don’t have to write in order. So I write when something gives me content. If I’ve met someone or a story shows up or I’ve interviewed someone, I write when I have content.

Debbi (06:36): Cool. I like that approach. How much research do you usually do before or while you’re writing the novel?

Liz (06:46): It depends. The first one and this fourth one are based on real events. And so I didn’t have to do as much as I thought because I knew a lot of it. Now, the legal part, I had to do research and I always rely on my lawyer friends to help me. The third one, I relied a lot on my friend who’s a detective, a retired detective. And this current one, it was a balance. So the current one, Dawn Before Darkness, is a stalker story and a guardianship abuse story. So the stalker part, I interviewed 10 women who had stalkers and combined their stories to this uber-villain. And then the guardianship story is actually my real story that I was fighting for guardianship for my mother. And so most of that, I didn’t need to do research. I lived it. And again, was therapy to write about it.

Debbi (07:33): Yes. How did you find the 10 women that you interviewed?

Liz (07:41): Great question. From my fan base. So I had just posted … Well, the first person, Dawn, Dawn Hillier was the inspiration behind me writing the stalker story. She had a stalker. We had become friends and she told me about her story. And so that was in my mind, I was always going to write the stalker story. And then I posted on Facebook just out to my readers and said, “If anybody’s had a stalker and is willing to be interviewed, I’d love to talk to you. “

Debbi (08:08): Wow.

Liz (08:09): And sadly, I had too many volunteers. That’s a sad state of affairs. So I picked 10 women, 10 stories. And then at that same time, my guardianship case was continuing to play out. And the real light bulb for me was, how do I combine those two things? How do I combine guardianship fighting for your mom and then a stalker? And when I was able to do that, I think this is my best one yet.

Debbi (08:34): Wow. That’s one of the most useful parts about Facebook, finding other people. And yet somehow I don’t really like Facebook. I wish I could like it more. You know what I’m saying? It’s so hard for me to get into it somehow.

Liz (08:55): It’s fun to keep up with people. I’m not 100% convinced it sells books, but to me, people tend to want the books when they’ve heard my talk or they’ve had a referral. So I do it some, but I don’t overpost. I feel like that might annoy people. So I try to do it with moderation.

Debbi (09:16): Moderation. Absolutely. That’s a great suggestion. What authors have most inspired you as a writer?

Liz (09:25): Different ones. Well, the very first one actually was my grandfather. He wrote a very different genre. He wrote a children’s book called Follow My Leader. His name’s James Garfield. And he wrote about a little boy who was blinded by a firecracker. That book came out in the 50s and it’s still in print today. So I guess I had the writing bug in me somewhere. And then as far as what I read, I read a lot of thrillers. And I tend to be, I’m on a kick right now with all the British thriller writers. So Clare MackIntosh, B.A. Paris, that crew. And a lot of it’s because I do audiobooks and I love listening to the British accent. But Michael Robotham, K.J. Howe, there’s so many.

Debbi (10:11): Yeah. Michael Robotham. I’m familiar with him.

Liz (10:14): He’s great.

Debbi (10:16): Nice guy, too.

Liz (10:17): Oh, you’ve met him. That’s great.

Debbi (10:19): We were on a panel once ages ago.

Liz (10:20): That’s a treat. Yeah.

Debbi (10:22): Yeah, It was. It was a real treat.

Liz (10:24): What I like about him is his twists, and I always have a twist. Every one of my books has a twist. His twists are earned. I love that about how he writes.

Debbi (10:35): Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Let’s see. How did you start writing fiction? Did you take courses or read books before you started your own novel or did you just launch in?

Liz (10:51): I just did it.

Debbi (10:52): Wow.

Liz (10:53): I don’t know if that’s a mistake. I think some of the best singers are just naturally gifted and don’t even have to take a course. I’m going to believe that’s my path. I’m sure if I took more courses or any courses, I would be better, but I read. I have good, good editors and I write.

Debbi (11:16): And you know what you like?

Liz (11:19): True.

Debbi (11:19): And that’s what you want to see. You want to write the book that you want to see out there?

Liz (11:24): I do. I write what I know and I like strong female characters. I like women who are sympathetic for some reason. Always have a good twist. When I know the twist, that’s when I know I’ve got my story.

Debbi (11:36): Yeah. Yeah. Let’s see. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in having a writing career?

Liz (11:45): Don’t do it, right?

Debbi (11:47): Run screaming.

Liz (11:49): Be ready. You named the things I’ve done. Pilot’s license, got my MBA, speak French. This is the hardest thing I’ve ever done, ever. Wow. So just be ready. Go in with not crazy expectations. When people ask me, when they’re thinking of writing a book, the first thing I ask them is, what’s your goal? Are you thinking you’re going to make money? Are you going to be famous? Do you want a movie deal? Have realistic expectations. And if it’s like me and it was just a calling that would not let go, then do it. Because if it’s not a calling that’s not going to let go, then do it. But go in with low expectations, get a mentor early. I did not do that. I should have. And the publishing businesses I have found doesn’t follow the business norms that I’m used to. 20 years at General Electric. And so be prepared for some of that. And that’s where a good mentor would help.

Debbi (12:45): Yeah. Yeah. Understand something about publishing. That helps a lot.

Liz (12:50): It does.

Debbi (12:51): People really don’t know

Liz (12:52): Well, you were indie before it was popular, which is very brave. Brave or foolish, I don’t know. But having to carve your way in a business that’s not friendly towards anything other than traditional is not easy.

Debbi (13:09): Well, it’s interesting. It seemed like it was a lot easier … how long ago was it? 13 years, 14, 15 years ago than it is today. Now, today it seems super-hard to get any kind of notice.

Liz (13:28): There’s so many books. There’s so many books out there.

Debbi (13:30): There’s so many books, there’s so many authors, there’s so many voices, and people are trying so many different things. And I’m not sure that we’re all really doing the right thing just yet. And I keep thinking there’s something missing here that we should be doing. Maybe it’s … I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t want to get all political here, but maybe we need a union. Maybe we need a collaboration, a huge get together of some sort where we all say, “What’s going on and what are we doing and what’s working and what isn’t?” These are serious questions, especially given what’s going on with AI and people hear the letters AI and they just start freaking out. Don’t freak out. Don’t freak out. Human voices will always be valuable. That’s the way I feel.

Liz (14:26): I think so. I mean, where I’ve used AI, it’s been a compliment, but it’s not been the centerpiece. And that’s where I have found it useful. And I’m just scratching the surface. I probably should take some courses to even understand it better.

Debbi (14:41): Well, I use it for making transcripts and that’s about it. And even then, I can’t trust the transcript necessarily because sometimes they’ll hear something wrong and they will get it completely wrong. And I’m like, oh, that is so wrong. I got to change that. So I have to review all the transcripts and takes time, takes effort, takes money, all that stuff. Anyway, not to bang on about that.

Liz (15:10): I will tell you, it’s great for vacation planning. I’ve used AI for that. You say, “Hey, ChatGPT, we’re going to be in this place or the city for this many days. Give me the best routing.” And it does a pretty decent job.

Debbi (15:23): That’s pretty cool. Well, I’ve never used it for that.

Liz (15:25): Try it. It actually is pretty good.

Debbi (15:29): Interesting. Beats Expedia, I suppose. I don’t know. Is there anything else that you would like to talk about that we haven’t covered? I think we’ve covered quite a bit.

Liz (15:41): Yeah. I mean, obviously where to get the books, go to my website, that type of thing. Absolutely. We could talk more about the plot of this recent one if you’d like.

Debbi (15:52): Okay. Go right ahead. Tell us a little more about the recent one, which is really a good book.

Liz (15:57): Thank you. Yeah, so it’ll be out in May. The ebook is up for pre-order, but the paperback and the audio will be out in May. But it’s about a woman named Dawn after my friend, Dawn, who meets a young man and she thinks he’s her prince charming and they begin to date. And as they’ve dated a couple weeks, she catches him in lies. And when she catches him in a lie that can’t be denied, she breaks off the relationship. And instead of accepting the breakup, he begins to stalk and harass her so much so that she has to get a restraining order. And beyond that, he goes after her mother. So he goes after guardianship and conservatorship of her mother. And people have said to me, “Well, you can’t do that. You’re not a relative.” And the crazy thing is anybody can sue for guardianship and conservatorship.

(16:44): All he has to do is prove she’s unfit. It doesn’t necessarily mean he’ll win, but it means he makes her lose. And he puts her through a horrible court battle. And I’ll kind of leave it at that because I don’t want to give away spoilers, but it is based inspired by my experience of battling for years to get my mother away from a third party guardian. And finally was able to do it, but it took me years. It took me thousands of dollars. And so when people say it might be implausible, the legal story in this latest book, I will tell you, Dawn had it easier than I did.

Debbi (17:19): Oh my gosh. Wow. That’s amazing.

Liz (17:24): That’s heavy. It’s heavy. This book is dark. When you talk about Dawn before Darkness, it is dark. It is heavy.

Debbi (17:29): Oh my goodness.

Liz (17:31): There was one part where my husband said, “Don’t you want to give her a break?” Like he said, “This is your best one yet, but you don’t give her a break.” And I’m like, “I didn’t get one.” So there are some vet stories. She’s a vet. I had a lovely friend, Becky Smith. That’s the Smith of Dawn Smith, the character, who’s a vet tech, and she shared so many great vet stories with me.

Debbi (17:53): Oh my God.

Liz (17:54): And so there is some levity because she’s a vet and you get to go into that world, which that was researched. And so there is a fun part. And every vet story in the book actually has a reason for being in there. It plays full circle.

Debbi (18:07): Oh, wow. That’s great. I can’t wait to continue reading this. I’m telling you, you’re just selling it to me all the way. Believe me.

Liz (18:17): Oh, lovely. Thank you. And you’ll have to call me when you’re done. I want to see what parts you caught, what parts surprised you.

Debbi (18:25): All right. Well, I will do that. I will definitely be in touch. Wow, this is fantastic. I just want to thank you so much, Liz, for spending time with us today and all of this.

Liz (18:38): Oh, my pleasure. And you’re great to do this. I have not taken on the brave job of doing podcasts and interviewing other people. So thank you for giving the rest of us a voice. We really appreciate it.

Debbi (18:50): I want to give you people, all of you a voice. I mean, seriously, there is wonderful, wonderful stuff to be read out there and you should hear about it. And you can hear about it here because I’ll have the people on to tell you about it. So to all of you who are listening or watching, thank you very much. I’m so grateful to you. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review. As many stars as you can manage with a straight face. And for ad-free episodes, book reviews, excerpts of my work and more, check me out on Patreon. We’re also on Substack for some reason or other. On that note, our next guest will be Marschall Runge. Until then, take care and happy reading. Be seeing you.

Check us out on Patreon!

View Details

My guest this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is Graciela Kenig, a crime writer who can tell you a tale in two languages. But she’s giving away her debut novel, The Plans They Made, in English. ~~I forgot to ask about translations!~~

Check out the transcript of our interview here.

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today has been a feature journalist, online forum contributor, and careers columnist. Her work has appeared in the Chicago Tribune, the Sun-Times, and other national publications. Her debut novel, The Plans They Made, won the 2022 Page Turner Award for best genre writing. So it is my pleasure to introduce you to my guest, Graciela Kenig. Am I saying that correctly, Kenig?

Graciela (01:31): Yes, you are. Yes. And thank you for having me. It’s amazing. You’re saying both things correctly and that’s cool.

Debbi (01:40): Ah, well, you see, I’m married to an Italiano man. His last name, if you pronounced it correctly, would sound very different from the way people actually pronounce it, when they can pronounce it. It’s funny. I have no problem with vowels, folks. I did take Spanish, so that helped in junior high and high school and all that stuff. So how are you doing anyway?

Graciela (02:07): I’m doing fine. Thank you. I’m just looking forward to spring in Chicago.

Debbi (02:12): We’ve had a rough one.

Graciela (02:12): Yeah.

Debbi (02:14): All right. You’ve had a very interesting career from writing features to having your own column. How did you go about developing this particular career path?

Graciela (02:26): Some of it was very organic. I wanted to be a writer from the get- go when I was little, and of course the language, because I was born in Argentina and I wrote in Spanish. And so I moved to the United States with my family and I had studied English, but you don’t use it every day until you have to. And so yeah, it kind of started like that, that I wanted to be a writer. And for the longest time, even though I had been encouraged about how I could write well, I kept thinking that Spanish was the language I should write in because that’s what I was very comfortable with. So I entered the newspaper writing career because the Chicago Sun-Times had started a section in Spanish. So I started writing articles for them, no journalist training. It’s just like, okay, let’s see what happens here.

(03:23): And so I learned quickly and soon enough they asked me if I would come in part-time to help the editor because he was not a native-born Spanish speaker, if I could just do a final sweep of his columns. He’d already done his editing, so I had to go back and make sure that everything was okay. And so that column, I think it lasted for sometimes a couple years. And then you’re inside this newspaper. And so somebody says, “Do you write in English too?” I do. And I was always drawn to being somebody who could give you advice. So some of the things that I liked for a while, eventually I freelanced for the Chicago Tribune and there I got in because I was writing for a know-how section. So I could write about how do you put together a ceiling fan? And so those kinds of things like that.

(04:20): And I wrote for a bunch of local papers and eventually I kind of started doing other things, getting interested in helping people with their career. And then The Tribune started a Spanish language newspaper, and that one lasted 10 years. And I wrote the careers column. So it was this interesting thing that kind of opened doors for me as to how I can help people in a very more specific way. And I felt that I wanted to help the Latino community because oftentimes we tended to be real roaded into one kind of job or another kind of job. And at least I said, “If you’re bilingual, you can do that and the other thing.” And the more I did that, the more I realized it wasn’t just being able to speak another language, it was also about the cultural issues. So it was very organic and went like that, but I always, always wanted to write fiction.

Debbi (05:18): Oh, that is so cool. I love what you’re saying. That is just fantastic. What inspired you to write your novel? What inspired the idea for it?

Graciela (05:32): I knew somebody who had put off, reconnect them with their best friend back in the time when you didn’t have easily, you couldn’t send faxes. I mean, that kind of stuff, you just sent—snail mail was the only way to communicate or calling, and that was expensive. And so it was put off. And when they were about to get together, this other friend had died. And so that was the seed of this. But, in big part, I used that for, I was taking a writing class and that was a prompt. And it was something like I wrote one scene and then the next assignment was write it from the other person’s point of view, which is so me because I think I like writing and I think a lot of us in the arts tend to … You have an artist sensitivity when you can see things from different perspectives, when you can be an outsider.

(06:33): And within your thing, it’s very hard to know your own culture, your own … Everybody does the same thing in your little life.

Debbi (06:42): Correct. Yeah.

Graciela (06:44): You know what I mean, in your circle of friends and acquaintances. And so I’ve always felt somehow, especially after we moved to the United States as an outsider. So you observe things in very different ways. You notice things other people don’t. And that’s really … And that’s what I liked about the idea too, is I developed the protagonist, Kate, being a journalist. I had all that experience myself, but she was an outsider. She’s visiting London in a country she doesn’t really know, which also was helpful to me because that way I could look at London, not as the expert that I’m not. It was just like, okay, how did she see it as having been a journalist and a writer when she’s there trying to find who killed her friend? I mean, the inspiration, the person that I knew did not … was not killed. She was in an accident.

Debbi (07:44): Right.

Graciela (07:45): You take your, what do they call your literary?

Debbi (07:49): Exactly.

Graciela (07:50): Yeah.

Debbi (07:51): It’s interesting how things like a prompt and then twisting it around, changing the perspective can really make you think about it and the possibilities.

Graciela (08:03): Yeah.

Debbi (08:04): Good, good, good approach there. Great stuff. What was it that made you choose the thriller genre?

Graciela (08:12): In a sense, it was organic as well. I was taking … A few years ago during the pandemic, I became involved with this group, StoryGrid, which most people think of StoryGrid as an editing tool, but they did start something where we had these groups and Sean Coyne, who’s the founder who wrote the book, basically would have these workshops. And so I started to realize that what I was thinking about really was very much in line with a thriller. It wasn’t what I intended to do. And although I had never been a real avid reader of thrillers, I had watched a lot of thrillers and movies and that kind of thing in both worlds in Argentina and Spanish and here, because my dad loved that stuff. He loved detectives. He loved police procedurals and all those kinds of things. And I just watched them because he liked them and I liked them too.

Debbi (09:12): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We watched a lot of those in our house too. And I remember distinctly when I was growing up, there was a show called Honey West about a female private eye, and it lasted for one season. I was so angry when they took it off. I said, I don’t believe they took that show off. The one show where I get to see a woman do something really cool.

Graciela (09:40): It’s pretty rare back.

Debbi (09:42): Exactly. Early ’60s, that was almost like a bizarre event, but it was really just a great show. And then The Avengers came along and filled that hole for me a little bit. Emma Peel was my heroine.

Graciela (10:02): Yeah. I liked the visual part about the movies showing action. It’s always a lot harder to describe action in words, but—

Debbi (10:11): It is, yeah.

Graciela (10:12): Punching. And I mean, I do thrillers, but I don’t like horror. It can be part of a thriller thing. And I also, I guess because of my upbringing, thrillers usually have to be political in nature, have some political thing.

Debbi (10:28): I get it.

Graciela (10:29): Yeah.

Debbi (10:30): I totally get it.

Graciela (10:31): There were like 15 political parties in Argentina, and even [inaudible] knew about them. It’s crazy. So yeah. Yeah.

Debbi (10:39): If we could only come up with a third one here.

Graciela (10:43): Yes, it would be helpful, wouldn’t it? Yes. Yes.

Debbi (10:46): A little balance somewhere along the line. Let’s see. You described yourself in another interview as a slow writer, primarily I think due to a lot of research that you do? How much research do you do before you start writing or while you start writing or while you are writing?

Graciela (11:06): I like doing research. It can be a rabbit hole. If I don’t stop myself. But I tend to just … With this one, and I’m writing a second novel now, with The Plans because I was still working full-time, it took me a long time to write it. And there I went to London to see that. And when I was in there, I came up with other ideas. I thought, oh, what happened that year in London? And there’s a chapter when it all has to do with President George W. Bush who was visiting there. So I thought he was here. So I like the idea of having … It’s not a historical novel, but I like having historical places, placeholders, so to speak. And that is how the story devolved in a sense. And I like that a lot because I do research a little before, but I also do a lot when I discover that I’m missing something and I don’t know.

Debbi (12:14): Precisely. Yeah.

Graciela (12:15): And, nowadays with the event of AI, I mean, it would’ve taken you months to get some of the things it can get for you and you’re just needing something for one sentence and okay.

Debbi (12:30): As long as you double check and make sure it’s not hallucinating. As a journalist, you know that.

Graciela (12:37): Yeah. Well, they usually give you sources.

Debbi (12:41): Usually, yeah. Yeah.

Graciela (12:42): I mean, but if they don’t, I check them. But I mean, it’s a good opportunity because I don’t know everything that I’m inventing.

Debbi (12:50): Absolutely.

Graciela (12:52): If you’re sending somebody to federal prison, for example, I learned, no, there’s no parole in federal prison since this act of 1984, and I didn’t know that until I just saw it in this research I did. So I enjoy doing that. Even if a lot of it doesn’t end up directly on the novel, at least it’s something that informs it.

Debbi (13:17): Yes. And what are you working on now?

Graciela (13:22): I am working on, I don’t know what you call it, a second or third draft of this one.

Debbi (13:28): Is it a sequel or a standalone?

Graciela (13:30): No, it’s not a sequel. Because I spent so much time with The Plans, I just wanted a break from that story. And this was inspired by something that was going to be a short story, but it’s not. It’s a novel.

Debbi (13:43): It’s funny how these things happen.

Graciela (13:47): So the working title of this is called Stuck in Paradise. And my protagonist is also a woman who’s out of her element, and Paradise is a Caribbean Island, and she goes here to help someone that basically plugs her from someone she knew in the past. So right now I’m deep into this thing of finalizing this draft, whatever number it is, I stop copying.

Debbi (14:17): After a while, you lose count.

Graciela (14:19): Yes, yes. But at this point, there are times when you go and you slog through it like, “What am I doing here?” I’m not sure. But at this point I ended up really pinpointing what I needed to do. So I’m in this really exciting period of like, oh, okay, I keep going. Yeah. So I hope you—

Debbi (14:40): I love that feeling. Yeah.

Graciela (14:42): Yeah.

Debbi (14:43): You got to keep that feeling going.

Graciela (14:45): It’s hard. It’s really hard because it doesn’t always come out.

Debbi (14:48): It is. Yeah, it is sometimes. What kind of writing schedule do you keep?

Graciela (14:57): I’m sorry?

Debbi (14:58): Do you keep a writing schedule? Do you have a—

Graciela (15:01): Yes, I do pretty much. And that’s part that started with the StoryGrid groups and I am on Central Time, so we write online. It’s kind of an accountability group, and so we all write at the same time and only share resources and questions at the end of the session. So we definitely do 10 to 12 every morning for me, Central Time. And I’m on a roll, I’ve been writing a lot longer these days, but I need breaks too. So often if I am going to do a minimum, it’s 10 to 12. I’m thinking about this story all the time, but that’s my writing schedule. Yes.

Debbi (15:45): I’ve noticed that you’ve traveled quite a bit. In addition to coming to the United States, do you prefer to go to a place before you write about it or do you just take it as it comes kind of like if you have to write a place that you’ve never been to, you just research it?

Graciela (16:07): I prefer to be there somewhat. I had been to London before I actually went and they had really good memories of it, but it wasn’t a research trip. So when I decided to set it there, I decided I had to go. And so it wasn’t a touristy thing. I just went there, which happened to be the first time ever I traveled by myself outside of the country. And I stayed at an apartment hotel where I could cook my own meals and it was wintery, so I had to be back by 4:30 or 5:00 so I could write, flesh out my notes. So I do like to go to the places, but I also like to travel. I see, again, talking about gaining outside perspective, oh yeah, this is things here and this is what they consider when they do this and that. And so yeah, right now I almost can’t go anywhere without at least thinking about those potential angles.

Debbi (17:08): Yeah, definitely for sure. Yeah, I love travel. I tend to think of thrillers as stories that test the limits of possibility because you’re always putting these people in situations that could happen that are unlikely, but could happen and have devastating potential results. What are your thoughts on that?

Graciela (17:33): Well, clearly when you’re writing a thriller, you have to make sure that you’re raising antes. There’s got to be a value change even in a scene.

Debbi (17:43): Exactly.

Graciela (17:44): Start out feeling this and a thriller, it goes from safety to danger or the other way around. But I also, I think that I see that as a very important thing to do because when we read about someone who’s in danger or how they came up with something, we learned something as readers. And so sometimes you’ll be like in a movie, you’d be covering your eyes if you’re scared. But in books, sometimes you have to take a moment and rest because—whew!—that was strong. But I also think that the more extreme situation the character is in, the more you understand that character and what is she or he made of.

Debbi (18:29): Exactly. The ability to relate with that character and to feel what they’re feeling in that moment. Yeah. It’s very important for screenwriting, I’ll tell you that.

Graciela (18:41): I know. I’m not a screenwriter, but I know that the character arc is important. They wouldn’t do certain things if they were someone different.

Debbi (18:50): Exactly. Yeah. What authors have most influenced you and inspired you to write?

Graciela (19:00): My tastes in writing are very eclectic in part because I also grew up in Argentina where I read back in the time of magical realism. So I don’t anymore because I got tired of it, but I loved it at the time and I loved all those authors. Gabriel Garcia Márquez who won the Peace Nobel, Borges, Cortázar. All of these people were really inspirational to me. But here in the United States in my early years, I really loved Anne Tyler and it was just, she’s not a thriller writer, but she’s so knowledgeable about people, the dynamic in families, which is always, was attracted to that for some reason. Her characters did quirky things.

Debbi (19:51): Yes, they did. I know. I’m a big Anne Tyler fan actually. Yeah.

Graciela (19:56): I’ve always loved her. And so for the longest time, if you ask me what’s my favorite book, it was Dinner at the Homesick Restaurant. I thought-

Debbi (20:03): Oh my God, yes. Oh my God, yes. Yes. Yeah, that one really got me.

Graciela (20:08): Yeah. But I do read a lot of thrillers. Now a lot of authors was one of my … I mean, Dennis Lehane, Stacey Abrams. I became a real fan of her. Somebody pointed her out to me and she writes a lot about political things like I like to write.

Debbi (20:27): Cool.

Graciela (20:29): Michael Connolly. Oh my gosh, he’s so good. Harlan Cobin. I have to write them down because I know I like a lot of them, but these are people who are very inspirational to me now. But foundationally, I think a lot of these people who wrote about their characters, Anne Tyler is certainly one of them.

Debbi (20:48): Yeah, for sure. Yeah, me too. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in a writing career?

Graciela (20:57): I think that, and it took me a long time to figure this out because people would always say in English and Spanish, how I could string works together really well. So my writing was poetic, blah, blah, blah, whatever it was, but you still have to understand story structure. And until I started taking some serious courses, I really didn’t. And I mean, there’s a lot out there nowadays, a lot of different people who are fantastic at teaching, and you could be spending money every day on something like that. You can have coaches. I think first of all, it’s a very lonely profession and you do need feedback. You don’t understand. And I mean, and again, I mentioned AI and AI will point out some very important things, but you still need humans to look at. It’ll say one thing, and then I have an editing group besides my accountability group, and we meet every week and we share a short part of what we’re writing. And the good thing is that they get to know your characters too. And they would say, “She wouldn’t do that. “

(22:04): So I think that you need to be working with somebody preferably who understands story well, whether that’s an editor or take a real … My first real courses that I took, I mean, I had taken many, but the ones that were really helpful to me were, UCLA has an extension writing program, so you can do that online. And I had really wonderful … I took three or four classes with them. And when I was talking about a writing class prompt, it was from one of those classes that I got this past book started. I really like how they do that. They teach you to give feedback, constructive feedback and to be good at that and to take it. We all have to take feedback and sometimes we don’t like what we’re hearing, but you have to, you learn from your feedback. So if you are not—

Debbi (23:01): That’s right.

Graciela (23:02): Then …

Debbi (23:05): It’s not going to work if you’re not willing to listen to what other people have to say about it, especially people who know how to write, who’ve been there and done it.

Graciela (23:16): I know. I know.

Debbi (23:17): You’re not doing yourself any favors by ignoring comments.

Graciela (23:21): Oh, I know. Well, when I would teach things at the university when I was running an internship program, which is really connected to careers, I designed courses, career management. And one of the projects was to come up with, you had to have a portfolio about what you did, an online portfolio about what you did in your internship. And then I would say, okay, you’re going to be in a team of three people or four or whatever, depending on the number of students I had. And so you don’t have to use their feedback, but if two or three of them said the same thing, it’s pointing something out to you

Debbi (23:56): Exactly. Yeah.

Graciela (23:58): And that’s probably one of the best advice pieces that I gave to them because they started to figure out, yeah, some’s not working here. And it was a very visual thing because they had to do it online. But it’s like a job that I had right before I retired from regular work was that. I worked at DePaul University, and it was a place where everything I did, my writing, my creating courses and advising people all came together there. So yeah.

Debbi (24:28): Yeah. So is there anything you’d like to add before we finish up?

Graciela (24:34): Wow. I’m so appreciative that you did this for me. Thank you so much. I really, really liked that. I just thought I like the idea of also suggesting that people, because when I finished this last novel we’ve been talking about, I did have to get beta readers, and that’s very different than don’t just give it to your cousin, your husband, your brother. I think one of the things that I learned is that when you … Beta readers that hopefully also read the kind of genre that you write because they will pick out … They know what readers expect of, for example, a thriller or a crime novel, and they should tell you. And when I did, besides getting those beta readers for The Plans They Made, I also consulted with somebody who lived in London because I thought, “Hey, I put a lot of stuff in there that I thought I heard correctly.”

Debbi (25:32): Good idea.

Graciela (25:34): And she was wonderful. She says, “Well, I’m your person in London.” And through a good friend of mine who was from England, but not from London, I connected with her and she was wonderful in helping.

Debbi (25:46): That’s awesome.

Graciela (25:48): Just look for help. I mean, I think sometimes people worry, “Oh, you’re going to copy my story.” No.

Debbi (25:55): Nobody’s going to do that. Don’t worry.

Graciela (25:57): Yeah. I mean, someone else can be developing the same idea and do something totally different.

Debbi (26:04): Different. Yeah. The idea is out there for anyone to use. The prompt was out there for anyone to use. They could have done anything with it. Yeah. So yeah.

Graciela (26:18): Yeah. So I mean—

Debbi (26:19): We all write individually and differently.

Graciela (26:22): Yes, yes. And even when somebody gives you an idea, you get to choose if that’s something that’s going to work for you. And if it does, it does. If it doesn’t, you don’t have to do what people say, but at least listen and consider that. If more than one person says that again, there’s a point.

Debbi (26:40): Keeping an open mind. Good idea. Well, thank you so much, Graciela. I really appreciate your being here and spending time with us.

Graciela (26:50): Thank you, Debbi. I appreciate the opportunity and hope to see you again in the future somewhere.

Debbi (26:57): Yeah, me too. That would be nice. It would be very nice. I would just like to also thank my listeners for listening. And while I’m at it, I will remind you to check out Graciela’s giveaway. She’s giving away a copy of The Plans They Made. I will include a link in the notes to this podcast. And if you enjoyed this episode, please give us a like on your podcast app of choice. I’m trying to speak the language here. I think I’m doing okay. The right language, the language I normally speak in. Our next guest will be Liz Lazarus. I love that name. Until then, take care and happy reading. Be seeing you.

View Details

My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with the author of two mystery series, Joy Ann Ribar.

Learn all about the Deep Lakes and Bay Browning series here!

Transcript available here.

Debbi (00:12): Hi, everyone. I hope the year is going well for everybody. Today I have as my guest, the author of two mystery series, the Deep Lakes Cozy Mysteries and the Bay Browning Mysteries. She is also a frequent traveler by RV with her husband and has blogged about some of her travels that have included some landmarks of literary note I might add. It is my pleasure to introduce my guest mystery author, Joanne Ribar. I’m sorry, Joy Ann Ribar. I mispronounced your first name instead of your last.

Joy (01:35): Something is always bound to trip somebody up. It’s quite right. It’s so nice to be here with you today, Debbi. I feel like I’ve waited for this day forever.

Debbi (01:47): I feel like I wait for a lot of things forever. I got to tell you. Yeah, the waiting is the hardest part. Oh boy. Don’t sue me, Tom Petty, please. It was just a small snippet. I didn’t even really sing it.

Joy (02:02): Right. Exactly. Anyway, less than 30 seconds. I think you’re good.

Debbi (02:05): Oh, there’s no real. Yeah, there is no nothing like that. It’s all very depends on all these factors as they put it. It’s like a combination of factors. Anyway, having said all that, how are you doing today?

Joy (02:22): I’m doing really well. Speaking to you from Arizona today, which is a whole lot different than Wisconsin right now. Wisconsin is very snowy. They just got dumped on again and here in Arizona it’s sunny and dry.

Debbi (02:38): Oh my gosh. Wow. Yeah, it’s better than … we’ve got snow all over the place here and we have more snow here in Maryland. That’s supposed to be coming, so that’s throwing all sorts of spokes in our … sticks in our spokes, so to speak.

Joy (02:55): Right. A wrench in the works.

Debbi (02:58): Yeah. Totally a monkey wrench in the works for sure. I mean, it just screws you up all around. Traveling. Any sort of plans you have, who knows? Maybe things will happen, maybe they won’t.

Joy (03:10): Right.

Debbi (03:11): I’m curious, did you have a career before you started writing fiction or have you always written fiction?

Joy (03:17): Oh, definitely. I’ve had a few careers. I started life as a, well, I was a journalist first and worked as a newspaper reporter and an assistant editor and a photographer, and then I went on to work for a law firm as a paralegal. So I did a lot of legal writing, which everything I’ve done seems to be centered around writing. And then I became an English teacher and I taught high school English, followed by college English. And then in 2017 I became a semi-retired part-time teacher. Found out I had a lot of time on my hands and decided I would try to do some writing of my own with fiction. And so I wrote my first book in 2018.

Debbi (04:14): And which book was that?

Joy (04:16): And that was Deep Dark Secrets, and it was the first in the Deep Lakes Cozy Mysteries. I wrote it in real time. It was January. I was in Wisconsin, looked out the window. It was snowing. It was cold. The streets were quiet, the snow was piling up in the crooks of the trees, and I thought, it’s beautiful out here, but how do I share the beauty of winter with readers who don’t know winter? And that was kind of how all of my mysteries then became set in different seasons in Wisconsin because I wanted to focus on the season even as much as I wanted to give them a good mystery.

Debbi (05:02): That’s really interesting. It’s like you’re focusing on a local area and the way it changes over time.

Joy (05:10): Yes, yes, exactly. And in that series, which there are five books plus a standalone Christmas book, but I wrote each one in a season and I picked up, I just continued where the last one left off as far as it being set in the same year, but in the next season and in the next season. That was how I set those mysteries, and it really gave the characters a chance to evolve even within their own relationships and in their own maybe quirks and obstacles in life.

Debbi (05:50): It’s really fascinating because this is the first time I’ve heard somebody talk so much about setting, the setting as a part of the story.

Joy (06:00): And I think for me, because it’s a cozy series, it was so important to have that setting become a place where maybe people wanted to come and visit and escape. It became a central part because it was a small town or it is a small town set in a tourist town, and everybody knows everybody. And so all of the shops have their own kind of personalities, and the people come and go, and they’re recurring characters. So it almost is kind of like a TV series in a way where people can come in and they know exactly what to expect. They come to that town, they come to the bakery, they come to the wine lounge, they go to the waterfall park. They just know what they’re going to get every time they come and visit.

Debbi (06:54): Yeah, yeah, that’s really cool. I think our environments do affect us as people, so definitely living in Wisconsin would have a different effect on people than say a person living in Arizona, their environment.

Joy (07:11): Definitely. And I think the more I travel, certainly the more I am aware of how local things really are in this really huge country that we live in. And I talked to so many readers who have never been to Wisconsin, and you get your own conception of a place. I mean, I think of Florida and the first thing I think of is Disney World. So people think of Wisconsin, and what I hear from people is, oh, it’s cold there, but it’s not cold all the time. It does get cold, but that’s only part of Wisconsin. And I really wanted people to see that there were so many layers in Wisconsin and so much different kinds of beauty, because again, I think people also think farmland. And there’s a lot more than farmland in Wisconsin too. There’s many different landscapes.

Debbi (08:11): Well, Madison is a really nice little town. I went there for a Bouchercon once. I really loved it. It was so walkable.

Joy (08:20): It is, and it’s such a popular community. It’s very artsy and cultural and yeah, I love Madison. That’s where I went to college, so it’s kind of one of my favorite places too, to be in Wisconsin.

Debbi (08:36): Kind of like the old stomping grounds.

Joy (08:38): Yes, indeed.

Debbi (08:41): You had, I think, mentioned in one of the descriptions of this series that they’re kind of like standalones in the same place. You could start with any of them?

Joy (08:52): What I would say is, I mean, you actually could, but what I would say is there’s a definite arc in my main character. She very much changes from somebody who is very unsure of herself in the beginning because she starts doing this amateur investigative reporting, and she doesn’t know how to ask questions. She doesn’t know who she should talk to. She certainly knows she shouldn’t cross police tape, but she does anyway. And she knows some things about the law because she herself had worked in the legal field for a time before she decided to run a bakery in a wine lounge.

(09:40): But there’s a definite arc to her character. Her character changes quite a lot and evolves quite a lot from being that uncertain person as she goes through a lot of different things throughout the series and also even in her relationships. Those change as well. Be that, and after having said that though, I’m a person who, I read series sometimes and there’s 25 books, and I’m not sure I’m going to commit to 25 books. And if I see something and I pick it up and I say, this catches my eye because of the plot line or the concept, I read the back of that book and I tell people the same thing. If you read the back of my book and you say, oh, this is cool. This is about a legendary curse, which is my second book. Oh, this is really cool. This is about birding. If somebody is really into that and says, I just want to pick up book three or four, I say, go for it.

Debbi (10:45): But you still have a protagonist who is, I take it a reporter or a …

Joy (10:50): She is.

Debbi (10:50): Kind of a newbie reporter,

Joy (10:52): A newbie reporter. She has a lot to prove. In the first book, she conveys to the readers that she wanted to be an investigative journalist, and the local newspaper editor would not hire her. Instead, he wanted her to hire her to print stories about her winery and recipes from the bakery and things like that. And she took that, took that as a little bit of an insult, like, oh, maybe you’re not taking me seriously because I’m a woman, or maybe you’re just not taking me seriously because you think I just bake for a living. And so it’s an opportunity that happens with her in the first book, is she stumbles upon a crime scene or a suspicious murder. It isn’t even a crime scene, but it’s a suspicious death. And she says, it’s January in Wisconsin. There’s not a lot going on at the bakery. I think I’m just going to poke around a little bit and ask some questions. And so she evolves in the newspaper reporting sideline that she has, and eventually she gets hired by a regional paper to just be an occasional reporter. But lucky for her, even in this beautiful cozy town, there seems to be a lot of murders.

Debbi (12:20): Nobody’s immune from murder, even small towns.

Joy (12:24): No, exactly.

Debbi (12:27): Let’s see. So how is the Bay Browning series different? I noticed that it tends to be more literary focused.

Joy (12:36): Yes. So for me, the series was born out of the fact that I was missing teaching literature. I actually really loved teaching literature. I loved having discussions with my high school students about classical books and poetry, and I was missing that. And I thought, well, what can I do? And then somehow this new character came to me and I said, oh, I could write a series that has some literary themes without being too much like literature. So it includes those literary themes, and each one focuses on a different thematic piece of literature. My first one focuses on mythology, and that was one of my students’ favorite subjects. And I thought, well, that’s really approachable and mythology is something that’s loaded with symbolism. And a plot line came to me, and I just created this character who was an English professor. She doesn’t want anything to do with murder investigations.

(13:48): She isn’t the least bit interested. She’s introverted. She’d rather just read her books by the fire, grade her papers, stay in her office, teach her classes, and repeat the routine. But murder comes calling to her. It comes calling in a dry cleaning mix up where she ends up with a murder victim’s coat instead of her own. And that’s where she finds a clue. And then she starts to piece things together. And also, her sister is highly involved in the very first book. Her sister lands on her doorstep after she’s been in prison for three years because she’s a con artist and got caught up in fraud and larceny, and now she’s on parole, and now she’s come back to her sister and said, I need a stable place to live, and will you help me out? So they have their own conflicts that they have to work out within the family, but then together they are also able to work on solving the crimes that they end up entangled in.

Debbi (15:08): They end up. I love that. I love it when people end up somehow entangled in things. You love that. I mean, that is pretty much the premise of almost every Hitchcock movie. Oh, I’m suddenly entangled in a horrible mess.

Joy (15:25): Right. Right. And as of course, for these people, main characters, it happens over and over and over again. But for the rest of us in the real world, you can easily see that there are times you can be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and you can totally understand how it could at least happen once.

Debbi (15:46): Yes, absolutely. That’s the thing about fiction. You have to sell it. You have to make people believe it, unlike reality, which is you can’t recreate reality and have people believe it. Reality is stranger than fiction.

Joy (16:05): It is. It definitely is.

Debbi (16:08): Yeah. So let’s see. How do you choose a topic? I see that you’re really informed by your past doing paralegal work as well as being an English teacher, to which I want to say bravo or brava actually, because I’m always in favor of teachers, good teachers.

Joy (16:28): Thank you.

Debbi (16:29): Good teachers have kept me sustained throughout the years when I wanted to be a writer, but wasn’t yet, technically, even though I was writing all the time.

Joy (16:40): Right.

Debbi (16:41): Let’s see. How do you choose, say, a topic, a particular topic for a book?

Joy (16:49): That’s a good question. Well, one thing I do is I’m an avid newspaper reader, so of course now newspapers are largely online, so I’m an avid online news reader. And the more you read, the more topics that come to mind. There’s so much going on out there, and there’s so much that’s covered. I think about when, oh, I, when was actually in a real newspaper reporter back in the 1980s, it wasn’t like you might have access to a lot of different topics, but you had to go digging for that. Now it all kind of comes to you. It’s a bombardment. So as I scroll through even headlines and pick and choose and look at the quirky things, or I look at real crimes, I look at just quirky hobbies or quirky, anything that seems of human interest to me. And if I read the article, I might say, oh, there’s just one tiny little thread that I could pull out of here, and wouldn’t that be a great topic for a mystery? And I start and I just go, jot it down. I have a notebook that I keep ideas in, and then I have to test them on my characters because I listen to my characters. And I think, is this true? Does this work in Wisconsin? Does it work? Where they live, where they work, who they are, who they hang out with, their occupation? Is it realistically something that could intersect in their lives? And there’s more ideas than I have time to write at this point.

Debbi (18:43): That is so true. The ideas are plentiful. It’s a matter of writing them and creating a story around them. That’s the rub.

Joy (18:54): It is. Oh, it is.

Debbi (18:55): What kind of writing schedule do you keep?

Joy (18:57): I like to write in the morning, and then I will take a break and I will go out for a walk, and then I’ll come back because a lot of times I take a break. Sometimes I take a break, I’m stuck. Sometimes it’s just because I know I’ve been sitting too long and it is time to move. And walking for me is just the place where ideas just loosen up. It’s like a great tool. It’s like great lubricant for the brain, and then I’ll go back at it. So I will try to spend about five hours a day in the writing world, maybe a little longer if things are really flowing. Or as I have a friend who says, if the syrup is pouring, then, then I’ll go a little longer, and I do like five days a week. But if I’m in the thick of a book and it’s really knocking on my door, finish me, finish me, finish me, then I’ll just write every day with just a little breaks in between. It just depends on how driven I feel. And sometimes, and I am a person who does write at the keyboard, so if it’s going, it’s going and I run with it because I don’t like to put the brakes on, if it’s really coming onto the page

Debbi (20:36): When you’re on a roll there, you want to keep it going.

Joy (20:38): Yes.

Debbi (20:39): Absolutely. What authors have you found most inspiring in your own writing journey?

Joy (20:47): Ooh, I read a lot of different authors. I mean, I do love so many of the classical authors that I’ve taught, including Jane Austin, which I think probably inspires a lot of women, I suppose. But in the modern world, I really like Mary Roach. She does nonfiction and she writes nonfiction from the most interesting viewpoints, and also by interviewing people with experiences within the book, she writes, she wrote a book called Fuzz, which is when wildlife breaks the law, so the intersection of humans and wildlife and what that looks like. And she also wrote a book called Stiff, which is about the life of a cadaver. I mean, it’s absolutely fascinating. And yeah, it’s intriguing, and it’s so entertaining too. She makes nonfiction very interesting. And in certain memoirs, like Michelle Obama’s memoir was really, I’m trying to remembering things that were more impactful to me. And I don’t just read female authors either, but I do gravitate toward women. I just read The Glassmaker, and I cannot remember the name of the person who wrote it, Khaled Hosseini, who wrote A Thousand Splendid Suns and The Kite Runner. I love the way he weaves the story together. Mitch Albom wrote, he wrote, I mean, obviously for me, his most famous book is Tuesdays with Morrie, and it was the book that I taught in my high school class. So it was such an approachable and relatable book for young adults, and I have a great admiration for everything that book brought to me in my classroom. So there are a lot, a lot.

Debbi (23:09): Is there a crime writer that you really like? Either old or new.

Joy (23:17): Old school, Agatha Christie, but in the new, I really like John DeDakis. He has written, he’s written a really good series featuring a female protagonist who is also a, she’s a journalist, but also works in the government. Lark Chadwick. His series is remarkable, and he is not afraid to tackle issues that are affecting our society today. So I give him a lot of bonus points. I give any author a lot of bonus points for tackling so many issues that are going on in our society today, because it’s not always easy to do that in real time. It’s a lot easier to do it when you can be retrospectively or historically not easy to do things in real time. It can affect, well, a lot of things, but we’re in a tough business. So I mean, I try to stay, stay on my reader’s good side. Maybe I shouldn’t even admit that on a podcast, but I do. When you’re writing cozy mysteries, I think that you bend towards certain themes and stay away from others. And yeah.

Debbi (25:01): There’s a certain amount of comfort I think that people seek from cozy mysteries. It’s okay to tackle tough subjects as long as you can provide that comfort in there somewhere. That’s my sense of it.

Joy (25:15): Yeah, no, I agree with you. And in my first series, my Deep Lake series, Frankie, who is my main character, she’s such an idealist, and she’s so interested in the restoration of balance and social justice. So even though it’s a cozy mystery, she likes to weigh in at the end. There’s always a newspaper article that she writes at the end that is her opinion piece. And in that she always wants to talk about, here’s the lesson that should be learned from this crime that happened to our, it happened to our community. That’s how she sees it. She lives in a small town, and it affects the whole community. And so even though I want it to be cozy, I am dealing with, there’s a victim, there’s a victim there, and I feel like that victim needs to have some justice. And what is the message that we can take away?

Debbi (26:19): I guess one message is that everybody’s important to a community in some way.

Joy (26:24): Exactly.

Debbi (26:24): Which is very much a great English teacher message. I love it.

Joy (26:29): Thank you. Thank you.

Debbi (26:31): Really, honestly, teachers, I just admire teachers. I really do. Let’s see. Do you ever have moments where you just say, geez, what was I thinking? Starting this story?

Joy (26:46): Yes. Yeah, I do. I mean, I think plotting is convoluted. You start with an idea, and it seems like such a good idea until you start hammering it out sentence by sentence, chapter by chapter, and then saying like, okay, I don’t know if I have anything else to say, or now I’m here and I have no idea how I’m going to get to this end, that I’ve already created the end, but what’s all this middle stuff that I have to put together yet? And yeah, it’s like you made the most complicated cake and you’ve got one layer, but you dunno what to fill it with.

Debbi (27:29): Yeah. It’s funny how you get those moments and then maybe you take a walk and then something comes alive and sparks.

Joy (27:37): It does, it does.

Debbi (27:38): It tends to work for me, it tends to work itself out with motion and time. It’s like if I take a walk, maybe I’ll stop thinking about it so much, and things will occur, and maybe by the time the walk is over or maybe the next day, it’s like, okay, now I have something. Sometimes if you sleep on it.

Joy (28:01): Yes, yes. If you sleep on it, invariably, I’m going to wake up in the middle of the night with the idea and say, I have to get up right now and jot it down. If I just jot down some keywords, I can get it back and then I can go back to sleep. But I think that what you said is so important that I think a lot of times authors feel like, well, this is my job. I better be sitting at this computer every single day hammering this out. And I think just because you have a writing schedule, you also have to know when it’s important to walk away for a while. And I’ve walked away for two weeks and gone back and then reread everything I wrote up to that point, and then realized, oh my gosh, the answer’s right here.

Debbi (28:52): Yes, yes.

Joy (28:52): I needed to walk away.

Debbi (28:54): You have to get away. You can’t see the forest for the trees kind of thing. Just walk away and then look at it again. It’s amazing sometimes.

Joy (29:04): It is. It is.

Debbi (29:07): It really is. Is there anything, any advice that you would give, you would like to give to anyone who is interested in having a writing career? What advice would you give to somebody starting out?

Joy (29:18): Well, a couple of things that maybe a lot of things, but one thing that I think is really important is to join a writing group of whatever kind. When I first started writing, there weren’t any writing groups in my area. I wasn’t sure how to find a writing group, but I found the Wisconsin Writers Association, and I think every state or has a writer’s group or writer’s organization that someone can join. And those people, writers, authors are very generous people. They’re busy, but they’re generous. They’re giving up their time, they’re giving advice and even saying, oh, sure, I’ll read what you wrote, or whatever connection you need, or whatever you don’t know that you need to know, I’ll at least point you in the right direction. So I think that’s important is to not be alone, because otherwise it’s a very isolating place. It’s just you and your world.

(30:24): And the other thing that I have actually told some authors is don’t be a perfectionist. Because if you think that you will not finish your book or release your book, publish your book, query your book, until it’s perfect, you will never do it. So you have to let go of that perfectionism, because I think for perfectionists, it’s never going to be good enough. I know, because I taught a lot of perfectionists at the high school and college level, and you have to pry the paper out of their hands and say, just let me read it. No, it’s not good enough. No, just let me read it. And I think writers have to let go of that idea that I need it to be perfect before I’m going to pass it along, because it will never be perfect.

Debbi (31:20): That’s right. Perfection is impossible to achieve, and really just let it go. Let it be what it is. Well, I want to thank you so much for being on today, Joy. Thank you.

Joy (31:33): Thank you. I appreciate being here.

Debbi (31:35): Well, I’m glad you were able to be here. So thanks again. And to everyone listening, please check out my blog or check out Patreon or Substack where I have posted the details of Joy ‘s book giveaway. On that note, thanks again for listening and to my patrons, thank you so much for your support. I really appreciate it. Until next time, take care and happy reading. Be seeing you!

Check us out on Patreon!

View Details

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features an entry from The Adventures of Philip Marlowe, which you can get without the ads here or here. Other than the one in the Old Time Radio ~~broadcast~~ replay. It’s called “The Dancing Hands”~~,~~ ~~which doesn’t sound particularly on-brand~~.

Enjoy the show!

Perhaps someday, I’ll be able to afford making transcripts of all these episodes! ~~Hey, I can dream … 🙂~~

View Details

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features an entry from The Adventures of Philip Marlowe, which you can get without the ads here or here. Other than the one in the Old Time Radio ~~broadcast~~ replay. 🙂

Someday, perhaps, I’ll make enough money to create transcripts of the Philip Marlowe episodes.

Would you be willing to pay (even a buck) for that~~, said the New York Times bestselling author~~? 🙂

PS: I just ~~blew through~~ finished this book. ~~I think~~ I’ve been as direct as humanly possible. 🙂

Every writer on the internet should read this book.

View Details

My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with crime writer and publisher of The Real Book Spy on Substack, Ryan Steck.

Also, feel free to download a copy of the transcript here.

Debbi (00:52): Hi everyone. Welcome to 2026. Our first show of the new year features the author of the Matthew Redd Thriller Series. He’s also a freelance developmental editor, which is an important thing to have if you’re self-publishing, and an author/publisher of The Real Book Spy on Substack. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest Ryan Steck. Hi, Ryan. How are you doing today?

Ryan (01:20): Hi, Debbi. Thank you so much for having me.

Debbi (01:23): I am very happy to have you on, even though you are wearing a Yankees cap.

Ryan (01:27): I know.

Debbi (01:27): I can live with that. It’s cool. I have Yankee fan friends, even though I’m a Met fan and a Nationals fan. I’m a National League fan. I don’t know.

Ryan (01:38): Well, I was telling you before we started to record, I’m actually a Tigers fan too, but I’m from Kalamazoo, Michigan, which is where Derek Jeter grew up. So I always loved the captain and rooted for the Yankees since I was a little kid.

Debbi (01:51): Very cool. That’s a very cool reason to root for him, too.

Ryan (01:55): Yeah.

Debbi (01:55): There you go. So anyway, happy new year. Glad to have you on. Thanks for being with us. What inspired you to write a thriller series?

Ryan (02:06): Oh, I think I’ve always loved to tell stories and I love thrillers. I love mysteries. Way before I was actually writing books, a fan of the genre, it was through talking with other authors. So I came from sports journalism and covering NFL teams, primarily the Detroit Lions, and then sort of made my transition into publishing. And at the time, I tried writing for other media outlets, writing book reviews and author interviews, but I didn’t love that I was told what books I had to review or which authors I had to talk to. I wanted to be in control of myself and my own boss. And so I was friends with a lot of the authors that I was covering. And the one thing I kept hearing from everybody is that there’s no one-stop shop for all things thriller. And it was a good friend of mine who was a mentor.

(02:58): His name was Ted Bell, New York Time bestselling author, Ted Bell, of the Alex Hawk series. Ted’s a guy I worked with for a while and he really mentored me in writing. But he said, “Buddy, if you build a website, we’ll come. We’ll support you. We’ll be there.”

So I launched The Real Book Spy at the end of 2014. And by 2016, we were averaging a million readers a year. And I think by 2018 … Yeah, I think it was 2018, we crossed two million readers for the first time and have hung around two and a half million readers a year or so on that. And I’m super proud of that. But at the same time, I’m so used to being on your side of the conversation that when I did become an author, it took time to learn to be on this side. And I just want to make another note too. The Matthew Redd series is my own books, but I also write now for the late Ted Bell’s estate.

(03:49): So the guy that really mentored me that helped me launch The Book Spy passed away a few years ago and initially I took over his series for Penguin Random House. And now we just signed a new three-book deal with Blackstone to continue the Hawk series. So I get to write those too. And I guess what led to me wanting to write my own books, I just always wanted to tell stories. And I bring a different, I think, perspective. A lot of guys in my genre, they’re ex-military, ex-special forces, ex-law enforcement, that kind of a thing. And I’m a father. I have six kids. I’m married. I know family life. People say write what you know. And I don’t agree with that because if I did, my books would all be about a dad who’s trying to figure out how to make it to everyone’s gymnastics and how to volunteer at church and all these other things.

(04:43): I believe in write what you want to read. And I love the West and I love lone wolf operators. And I felt like, man, we haven’t seen a lot of that. What does Jack Ryan or Jason Bourne look like out West? And I wanted to explore that. So I was very blessed to have a literary agent. And I said to him one day, “I think I want to write Jason Bourne.” Or I said to him, “I want to write Vince Flynn meets CJ Box, two of my all time two favorite authors.” I remember my agent at the time said, “What’s that look like? ” And I said, “I don’t know, give me a year. I’m going to figure it out. ” And I wrote my first novel, Fields of Fire set in Montana starring a former Marine raider named Matthew Redd and have been fortunate enough to write three books that are already published after that.

(05:32): And I’m under contract for two more with the next one coming out this year called Target Down.

Debbi (05:40): Wow. So you have something coming out this year, and what are you working on now?

Ryan (05:48): Yeah, so it’s actually a big year for me. I have three books out this year.

Debbi (05:52): Wow.

Ryan (05:53): So I have my second Alex Hawk novel that again, I took over for the late Ted Bell, who’s a mentor and dear friend of mine. Ted Bell’s Warmonger comes out March 31st. And then sometime this summer, my fifth Matthew Redd novel, that’s my own series. And then the franchise I’m most passionate about comes out … I would think we’re targeting July, August, September range. I don’t think we have a pub date just yet. And then my third book is … Actually, the second book I co-wrote with a friend of mine named Simon Gervais. Our first book, The Second Son, is published by Thomas and Mercer. And that book came out officially December 1st, 2025. Already has been a bestseller on Amazon overall and has 6,000 reviews so far and growing in just over a month. So we’re really psyched and our second book in that series will come out in November.

(06:50): It’s called The Marked Sun. So it’s a three-book year for me. And I’ve been mostly storing up energy to get ready for this year because of it.

Debbi (07:00): Yeah. Wow. Well, congratulations. That’s absolutely fantastic. You’ve had some amazing success with Substack too.That’s really something.

Ryan (07:11): Thank you.

Debbi (07:14): What do you ascribe? What do you think has led to getting so many subscribers so quickly?

Ryan (07:22): Well, I think with The Real Book Spy, there was just really no one-stop shop for all things thriller, and people were hungry for that.

(07:32): I didn’t initially launch the site on Substack. It’s just therealbookspy.com still exists. We moved to Substack last August as a way to just build on what we’re doing. And it’s been a great move, not only for us, but for our audience, I think, and a better way to communicate and connect with people. But I look at it as my wife watches the Oscars every year, and I don’t. I’ll look and see who won Best Picture and this and that. I’ve never heard of any of the movies that win, by the way, let alone seen them. I’ve never even heard of them. And it’s funny to me that those are the ones that win, but I’ve seen every billion dollar franchise. I’ve seen every Fast and the Furious or Mission Impossible or the Marvel movies, and those never win awards or accolades. And I really think that in our business and publishing, the equivalent of that is the thriller genre.

(08:27): So they go out and sell really well and millions of readers, but they don’t ever win awards. They don’t win literary awards and things like that, but yet people love them. So I think just launching something to give readers more inside access, that was really my approach was to bring you an insider’s perspective to everything happening. So cover all the books for sure. I want you to know what books are coming out, but I also want you to know when authors sign new book deals and interview those writers and cover things a little differently than what anyone else was doing. And I think that really helped us take off for sure.

Debbi (09:06): Yeah. Yeah. Doing something a little bit different than everybody else.

Ryan (09:11): Yeah, that’s right.

Debbi (09:11): Very specific too, for a specific audience. Those are good insights. Let’s see. How often do you publish Book Spy?

Ryan (09:26): Frequently. I mean, whenever we have news, we’re trying to put something on Substack every day, every other day at the minimum. Sometimes maybe there’s not enough news going around. So a few times a week, but definitely with Substack, it’s a subscription model. If people are spending $8 a month or $80 a year, I want to make sure you get most bang for your books. So we are for sure rolling out content there. Big things too. I think we’re the only source on the internet that has a full lineup of 2026 releases, every mystery, every thriller in one spot. So it’s content like that. Sure, we’re doing reviews, book announcement, cover reviews, author interviews, but also different type of lists. Again, the goal is always to help good readers find good books.

Debbi (10:15): How do you find the books that you feature on your Substack?

Ryan (10:20): Oh man, I have a great relationship with a lot of the publishers. That’s required. Yep. I need to know them, trust the marketing teams and the publicists when they send me something, they think it’s probably a fit for our audience and then we need to evaluate is it? I would say that I’m not going to review books I don’t like. So the one thing I don’t do is a lot of bad reviews. And I know that there’s been times in the last 10, 11 years where people have said, “Man, do you just love every book you read because you post a lot of good reviews?” And I said, “Well, no, but I don’t finish books I don’t like.” There’s really no value in it. Writing a bad review doesn’t help me, doesn’t really help you, doesn’t help the author. I don’t want my approach to be, here’s all the books you shouldn’t check out.

(11:04): I want it to be, here’s all the books that are available. Here’s the ones I think you’ll like, but everyone has their own taste. And so I might not review a book I don’t like, but I’m smart enough to know that just because I don’t like it doesn’t mean someone else won’t. So we might add it to a monthly reading guide or something like that. But really, I think over 11 years, we got a pretty good feel for what our readers are looking for and we try to tailor everything to them.

Debbi (11:30): Yeah, that’s good. That’s an excellent approach. Did you do a lot of surveys or anything of your readership before you launched the Substack?

Ryan (11:41): No, not like official polls or surveys. I don’t think we need to because of just the volume of messages and comments and things that we receive and have received for over a decade. So therealbooksbuy.com existed for over a decade before we even launched the Substack. So I felt like people had weighed in enough over the years that we had a pretty good understanding of what it is they were looking for.

Debbi (12:05): So you were just getting that feedback anyway?

Ryan (12:07): Absolutely. Yeah.

Debbi (12:09): That’s fantastic. What authors … Oh, you also do freelance editing.

Ryan (12:18): Not so much anymore. I did for a long time, but these days I’m writing three books a year and still overseeing everything Book Spy related, I just don’t have the time.

Debbi (12:28): I was going to say, how do you balance out your time? How do you structure your time to fit in this stuff?

Ryan (12:35): Yeah, it’s already a challenge. Because again, being an author, being a Book Spy, my first job is really husband and father. So finding balance is something I’ve struggled with for over a decade. And it really wasn’t until last year I decided, look, stuff’s got to change. I have to priororitize this idea that you blink and you miss your kids growing up, it’s so real.

(13:00): It’s so real. And the issue that I have is I feel like every time I lock away on deadline to finish a book, I come out of my office and my kids all look five years older. In my head, one of my sons, I literally still picture him as eight, maybe the oldest at 12, and he’s going to be 15 this year. It’s really hard for me. The emotional and sentimental side of me regrets maybe having tied up so much of my time in books over the years. And I wish I would’ve done a better job with balance. And that’s the advice I give a lot of people now is don’t feel like you have to go chase money or careers or this or that. You will blink and your kids are grown and you’ll miss it. You will not feel secure in your financial state.

(13:45): You will wish that you were there for your children more. And so really it was last year I made an effort to prioritize that and am very protective of that in 2026.

Debbi (13:55): That is the best advice I’ve heard in a long time. I just think that is great advice. And everybody who writes should listen to you. Protect yourself, your time, your personal life, your family. All of these things matter, your community, whatever.

Ryan (14:16): Well, there’s that saying the days are slow, but the years fly by, and it’s so true.

Debbi (14:20): Very, very.

Ryan (14:21): It’s just so true. And I look at that and already I was thinking about this interview last night and just how much my life has changed since I first became published in 2022. And I now have six novels out in that time, and I have three more coming out this year. So it’s been a lot. It’s like drinking from a fire hose. And it’s very easy to lose sight of your most important role as father, husband, if you have kids or a wife or family. But even beyond that, just protecting your personal time and personal relationships. I wish I’d have done a better job with that. And now I’m very vocal in advising others. Don’t make the mistakes that I did and prioritize family. Yeah.

Debbi (15:09): Amen to that. Yeah, I hear you. Loud and clear. Boy. What authors have you found to be most inspiring and influential on your work?

Ryan (15:20): So Vince Flynn is my all- time favorite writer. He wrote the number one New York Times bestselling Mitch Rapp series. After his death in 2000, I think it was 12, Kyle Mills, who’s a friend of mine, another number one New York Times bestselling author, took over the Mitch Rapp series and wrote in that for about a decade, wrote nine books. And now Don Bentley, another New York Times bestselling author has sort of picked up the mantle and continued it forward and is doing an excellent job. Vince Flynn is by far the writer who’s influenced me the most because he’s the reason I fell in love with books. I have six kids and my youngest son’s name is Mitchell after Mitch Rapp, Vince’s character. And then second to him, CJ Box is just an all-time favorite of mine. Him and Vince are really my 1A and my 1B.

(16:13): I look at his career and there’s nothing the guy can’t write. I think his Joe Pickett series is the best franchise in print today, regardless of genre, and I’m really in awe of what he can do. More recent writers, Jack Carr is really this day’s modern Tom Clancy of his generation. Jack Carr, number one New York Time bestselling author of The Terminal List series. Brad Thor is another guy I really enjoy. So for sure, a lot of writers were influential in me. I would say being where I’m at with my Redd series in Tyndale, Josie Rosenberg is an author that really I learned a lot from. And then of course, Ted Bell, who was a mentor to me, and now I write his series.

Debbi (16:59): Yeah, yeah. Wow. Sounds like you’ve met some remarkable people too. That helps.

Ryan (17:06): Oh, I’ve been so blessed. Yeah.

Debbi (17:09): That’s fantastic. You aren’t on TikTok, are you?

Ryan (17:14): I think so. Not a lot. Yeah, not a ton.

Debbi (17:17): I was wondering if you did BookTok.

Ryan (17:18): Yeah, no, I think it’s not as trendy for our genre with thrillers and mysteries and all that, but I do pay attention to it.

Debbi (17:28): Well, it’s there. That’s all I can say.

Ryan (17:31): It’s there. Yeah, you’re right about that.

Debbi (17:33): I’m not there, but it’s there. And apparently publishing is relying on it for some reason. Let’s see. What have you read lately that was a real standout book for you, that really spoke to you in some special way?

Ryan (17:52): Yeah. So Brad Thor and Ward Larson, another buddy of mine, they have their first co-written book together called Cold Zero, comes out in February, and I read an advanced copy of that a few months ago, and it is phenomenal. They just announced yesterday that it’s going to be a massive feature film on Netflix, by the way. The book is phenomenal. I’d recommend people check that out. Another writer who’s very near and dear to me is Brad Meltzer, number one New York Times bestselling author of so many books and the host of History Channel’s Decoded and other TV shows. He also writes children books called … It’s the Ordinary People Save the World or something like that. I wish … now it escaped me, but I call them the I Am books because every title is I Am. And he has George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and just historical figures.

(18:43): And it’s near and dear to me because I have a son, my son Ryan Jr., who’s autistic. We were told he would maybe never read. And for someone that works in publishing, I kind of refuse to believe that. And I’ll never forget the day I woke up and Ryan Jr. was sitting on the floor reading one of Brad Meltzer’s I Am books. He was reading I Am Abraham Lincoln out loud. And I’m a big softie with my kids, so I start crying and I couldn’t believe it was a big moment. And so I reach out to Brad Meltzer and he sent my son a video of himself, congratulating him. Then he sent a bunch of signed books to my kid. And later when PBS made a TV show, Xavier Riddle and the Secret Museum based off of the I Am books, kids’ books that Meltzer writes, my son was so excited to see that and sent a video to Brad and Brad immediately got right back to him.

(19:35): So I really love that guy. But in addition to being one of the best people in publishing, he is a phenomenal writer. And so he’s got a new book that just came out Tuesday, January 6th.

Debbi (19:46):The Viper?

Ryan (19:46): The Viper. Yeah. That’s a good one.

Debbi (19:49): I have a copy. It’s sitting there waiting for me to read it. I’ve got to read this thing.

Ryan (19:55): He is one of those guys that, because of what my job is, I always know what the book is about. It’s my job to cover and let you know this book is coming way before I even get to read it. But if I walked away from publishing tomorrow and I knew nothing and I walked in a store and I saw Brad Meltzer’s name on a book, I’d buy it, no questions asked.

Debbi (20:14): Well, I have a story about Brad Meltzer. I have never met him actually, but it’s interesting. I have a story about his book, one of his books.

(20:24): When I first self-published, this was after, this is a short story about me. I hope you don’t mind. I was with a small press back in 2005 that went out of business nine months after my book came out and I’m like, oh, now what? So then I decided to self-publish and I came out with a book. It’s called Identity Crisis. And the funny thing was there was another book called Identity Crisis out there by Brad Meltzer. I was like, oh my God, we both chose the title. Somebody chose the title, Identity Crisis for him or he chose it. I don’t know which. So I was just like, “Oh my God, we have the same title. How about that? ” So I’ve always felt this weird interest in him. What made you choose that title and what’s your book about? And I never did read it.

Ryan (21:16): It’s a good book, I’ll tell you that. It is a good book. Everything he writes is phenomenal.

Debbi (21:20): Oh my gosh. Well, I can’t say that mine was phenomenal. It was my first. So forgive me if it wasn’t phenomenal like yours, but still even so. Yeah. So I just think he’s always been kind of interesting to me. So now I have to definitely read that book.

Ryan (21:38): Yeah, check out The Viper. It’s a good one.

Debbi (21:40): The Viper. Alrighty. Do you read books in other genres or do you not have time for that?

Ryan (21:46): Well, I mean, yeah, it’s tough because if I’m being perfectly honest with you, when I’m not working on The Book Spy, I’m not writing one of my books, the last thing I want to do is pick up a book. Generally, I’m more like, let’s do anything else. So yeah, I read nonfiction for sure. I read a lot of books that deal with theology and biblical content, things like that. I read the Bible, I read kids’ books with my children, stuff like that. But I don’t what I would call pleasure read very often, which is like, “Hey, I’m not covering this book. It’s outside of my genre, but it looks cool. I think I’ll check it out.” That’s pretty rare.

Debbi (22:32): See, I can’t seem to limit myself. I have to go outside of the genre every now and then.

Ryan (22:37): Sure.

Debbi (22:38): This sounds like a fascinating sci-fi or fantasy or I got to read this Terry Pratchett book, I haven’t gotten to it yet. Things like that.

Ryan (22:47): Yeah.

Debbi (22:47): Just like, I don’t know. What advice would you give to someone who’s interested in a writing career?

Ryan (22:57): Well, you have to love it. You have to love storytelling. Don’t write one book and then go, okay, I’m going to try to get an agent, try to get a publisher. And if I get one, I’ll keep writing. Writers write. It’s not an agent or book deal or publisher that validates you as a writer. If you’re writing, you’re a writer. So always be writing. That’s my number one piece of advice. Don’t finish a book and start querying it and then do nothing. Keep writing. While you query that book, while you query agents and you’re trying to land one, keep writing. Always be writing. And a lot of times, if you look up your favorite author and you maybe hear how they got into the industry, very few people ever break in with the first book they wrote. They’ll write several before an agent gives them any attention.

(23:43): And another writer I really love and a guy I admire so much, Steve Berry. Steve, I think, wrote 12 manuscripts before he got published. I think a lot of people give up way too early. And so just keep writing and put your head down and go write.

Debbi (23:58): Yes. Great advice. Absolutely. Is there anything else you’d like to add while we’re on that I haven’t covered?

Ryan (24:08): Just that if you’re new to my books, I wrote them that you could, in a way, so you could jump in anywhere. I think there’s probably more value in starting at the beginning with Fields of Fire. So that way you’re familiar with the characters throughout. But if you’re in the bookstore and you see one and it’s not the first one, you really honestly can jump in anywhere and I try to write them so that each story stands on its own and you’ll kind of know what’s happening, but I hope you’ll check them out. And to you, Debbi, just thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Debbi (24:39): Well, it was my pleasure. Very much so, Ryan. Thank you for being here. And I will now switch over. Here I am. Okay, on video. Yes. Thank you very much for being here today, Ryan. I do appreciate it. And I’m hoping to make some changes to both my Patreon and Substack pages. So hopefully there’ll be changes for the better. And if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Patrons of the podcast get early ad-free episodes along with copies of the Crime Cafe story collections, which include a box set and short story anthology. There’s also a monthly newsletter where I include my reviews, new releases, and other items of possible interest to crime and mystery lovers. So check it out. And until next time when our guest will be Douglas J. Wood, take care and happy reading.

Debbi (00:52): Hi everyone. Welcome to 2026. Our first show of the new year features the author of the Matthew Redd Thriller Series. He’s also a freelance developmental editor, which is an important thing to have if you’re self-publishing, and an author/publisher of The Real Book Spy on Substack. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest Ryan Steck. Hi, Ryan. How are you doing today?

Ryan (01:20): Hi, Debbi. Thank you so much for having me.

Debbi (01:23): I am very happy to have you on, even though you are wearing a Yankees cap.

Ryan (01:27): I know.

Debbi (01:27): I can live with that. It’s cool. I have Yankee fan friends, even though I’m a Met fan and a Nationals fan. I’m a National League fan. I don’t know.

Ryan (01:38): Well, I was telling you before we started to record, I’m actually a Tigers fan too, but I’m from Kalamazoo, Michigan, which is where Derek Jeter grew up. So I always loved the captain and rooted for the Yankees since I was a little kid.

Debbi (01:51): Very cool. That’s a very cool reason to root for him, too.

Ryan (01:55): Yeah.

Debbi (01:55): There you go. So anyway, happy new year. Glad to have you on. Thanks for being with us. What inspired you to write a thriller series?

Ryan (02:06): Oh, I think I’ve always loved to tell stories and I love thrillers. I love mysteries. Way before I was actually writing books, a fan of the genre, it was through talking with other authors. So I came from sports journalism and covering NFL teams, primarily the Detroit Lions, and then sort of made my transition into publishing. And at the time, I tried writing for other media outlets, writing book reviews and author interviews, but I didn’t love that I was told what books I had to review or which authors I had to talk to. I wanted to be in control of myself and my own boss. And so I was friends with a lot of the authors that I was covering. And the one thing I kept hearing from everybody is that there’s no one-stop shop for all things thriller. And it was a good friend of mine who was a mentor.

(02:58): His name was Ted Bell, New York Time bestselling author, Ted Bell, of the Alex Hawk series. Ted’s a guy I worked with for a while and he really mentored me in writing. But he said, “Buddy, if you build a website, we’ll come. We’ll support you. We’ll be there.”

So I launched The Real Book Spy at the end of 2014. And by 2016, we were averaging a million readers a year. And I think by 2018 … Yeah, I think it was 2018, we crossed two million readers for the first time and have hung around two and a half million readers a year or so on that. And I’m super proud of that. But at the same time, I’m so used to being on your side of the conversation that when I did become an author, it took time to learn to be on this side. And I just want to make another note too. The Matthew Redd series is my own books, but I also write now for the late Ted Bell’s estate.

(03:49): So the guy that really mentored me that helped me launch The Book Spy passed away a few years ago and initially I took over his series for Penguin Random House. And now we just signed a new three-book deal with Blackstone to continue the Hawk series. So I get to write those too. And I guess what led to me wanting to write my own books, I just always wanted to tell stories. And I bring a different, I think, perspective. A lot of guys in my genre, they’re ex-military, ex-special forces, ex-law enforcement, that kind of a thing. And I’m a father. I have six kids. I’m married. I know family life. People say write what you know. And I don’t agree with that because if I did, my books would all be about a dad who’s trying to figure out how to make it to everyone’s gymnastics and how to volunteer at church and all these other things.

(04:43): I believe in write what you want to read. And I love the West and I love lone wolf operators. And I felt like, man, we haven’t seen a lot of that. What does Jack Ryan or Jason Bourne look like out West? And I wanted to explore that. So I was very blessed to have a literary agent. And I said to him one day, “I think I want to write Jason Bourne.” Or I said to him, “I want to write Vince Flynn meets CJ Box, two of my all time two favorite authors.” I remember my agent at the time said, “What’s that look like? ” And I said, “I don’t know, give me a year. I’m going to figure it out. ” And I wrote my first novel, Fields of Fire set in Montana starring a former Marine raider named Matthew Redd and have been fortunate enough to write three books that are already published after that.

(05:32): And I’m under contract for two more with the next one coming out this year called Target Down.

Debbi (05:40): Wow. So you have something coming out this year, and what are you working on now?

Ryan (05:48): Yeah, so it’s actually a big year for me. I have three books out this year.

Debbi (05:52): Wow.

Ryan (05:53): So I have my second Alex Hawk novel that again, I took over for the late Ted Bell, who’s a mentor and dear friend of mine. Ted Bell’s Warmonger comes out March 31st. And then sometime this summer, my fifth Matthew Redd novel, that’s my own series. And then the franchise I’m most passionate about comes out … I would think we’re targeting July, August, September range. I don’t think we have a pub date just yet. And then my third book is … Actually, the second book I co-wrote with a friend of mine named Simon Gervais. Our first book, The Second Son, is published by Thomas and Mercer. And that book came out officially December 1st, 2025. Already has been a bestseller on Amazon overall and has 6,000 reviews so far and growing in just over a month. So we’re really psyched and our second book in that series will come out in November.

(06:50): It’s called The Marked Sun. So it’s a three-book year for me. And I’ve been mostly storing up energy to get ready for this year because of it.

Debbi (07:00): Yeah. Wow. Well, congratulations. That’s absolutely fantastic. You’ve had some amazing success with Substack too.That’s really something.

Ryan (07:11): Thank you.

Debbi (07:14): What do you ascribe? What do you think has led to getting so many subscribers so quickly?

Ryan (07:22): Well, I think with The Real Book Spy, there was just really no one-stop shop for all things thriller, and people were hungry for that.

(07:32): I didn’t initially launch the site on Substack. It’s just therealbookspy.com still exists. We moved to Substack last August as a way to just build on what we’re doing. And it’s been a great move, not only for us, but for our audience, I think, and a better way to communicate and connect with people. But I look at it as my wife watches the Oscars every year, and I don’t. I’ll look and see who won Best Picture and this and that. I’ve never heard of any of the movies that win, by the way, let alone seen them. I’ve never even heard of them. And it’s funny to me that those are the ones that win, but I’ve seen every billion dollar franchise. I’ve seen every Fast and the Furious or Mission Impossible or the Marvel movies, and those never win awards or accolades. And I really think that in our business and publishing, the equivalent of that is the thriller genre.

(08:27): So they go out and sell really well and millions of readers, but they don’t ever win awards. They don’t win literary awards and things like that, but yet people love them. So I think just launching something to give readers more inside access, that was really my approach was to bring you an insider’s perspective to everything happening. So cover all the books for sure. I want you to know what books are coming out, but I also want you to know when authors sign new book deals and interview those writers and cover things a little differently than what anyone else was doing. And I think that really helped us take off for sure.

Debbi (09:06): Yeah. Yeah. Doing something a little bit different than everybody else.

Ryan (09:11): Yeah, that’s right.

Debbi (09:11): Very specific too, for a specific audience. Those are good insights. Let’s see. How often do you publish Book Spy?

Ryan (09:26): Frequently. I mean, whenever we have news, we’re trying to put something on Substack every day, every other day at the minimum. Sometimes maybe there’s not enough news going around. So a few times a week, but definitely with Substack, it’s a subscription model. If people are spending $8 a month or $80 a year, I want to make sure you get most bang for your books. So we are for sure rolling out content there. Big things too. I think we’re the only source on the internet that has a full lineup of 2026 releases, every mystery, every thriller in one spot. So it’s content like that. Sure, we’re doing reviews, book announcement, cover reviews, author interviews, but also different type of lists. Again, the goal is always to help good readers find good books.

Debbi (10:15): How do you find the books that you feature on your Substack?

Ryan (10:20): Oh man, I have a great relationship with a lot of the publishers. That’s required. Yep. I need to know them, trust the marketing teams and the publicists when they send me something, they think it’s probably a fit for our audience and then we need to evaluate is it? I would say that I’m not going to review books I don’t like. So the one thing I don’t do is a lot of bad reviews. And I know that there’s been times in the last 10, 11 years where people have said, “Man, do you just love every book you read because you post a lot of good reviews?” And I said, “Well, no, but I don’t finish books I don’t like.” There’s really no value in it. Writing a bad review doesn’t help me, doesn’t really help you, doesn’t help the author. I don’t want my approach to be, here’s all the books you shouldn’t check out.

(11:04): I want it to be, here’s all the books that are available. Here’s the ones I think you’ll like, but everyone has their own taste. And so I might not review a book I don’t like, but I’m smart enough to know that just because I don’t like it doesn’t mean someone else won’t. So we might add it to a monthly reading guide or something like that. But really, I think over 11 years, we got a pretty good feel for what our readers are looking for and we try to tailor everything to them.

Debbi (11:30): Yeah, that’s good. That’s an excellent approach. Did you do a lot of surveys or anything of your readership before you launched the Substack?

Ryan (11:41): No, not like official polls or surveys. I don’t think we need to because of just the volume of messages and comments and things that we receive and have received for over a decade. So therealbooksbuy.com existed for over a decade before we even launched the Substack. So I felt like people had weighed in enough over the years that we had a pretty good understanding of what it is they were looking for.

Debbi (12:05): So you were just getting that feedback anyway?

Ryan (12:07): Absolutely. Yeah.

Debbi (12:09): That’s fantastic. What authors … Oh, you also do freelance editing.

Ryan (12:18): Not so much anymore. I did for a long time, but these days I’m writing three books a year and still overseeing everything Book Spy related, I just don’t have the time.

Debbi (12:28): I was going to say, how do you balance out your time? How do you structure your time to fit in this stuff?

Ryan (12:35): Yeah, it’s already a challenge. Because again, being an author, being a Book Spy, my first job is really husband and father. So finding balance is something I’ve struggled with for over a decade. And it really wasn’t until last year I decided, look, stuff’s got to change. I have to priororitize this idea that you blink and you miss your kids growing up, it’s so real.

(13:00): It’s so real. And the issue that I have is I feel like every time I lock away on deadline to finish a book, I come out of my office and my kids all look five years older. In my head, one of my sons, I literally still picture him as eight, maybe the oldest at 12, and he’s going to be 15 this year. It’s really hard for me. The emotional and sentimental side of me regrets maybe having tied up so much of my time in books over the years. And I wish I would’ve done a better job with balance. And that’s the advice I give a lot of people now is don’t feel like you have to go chase money or careers or this or that. You will blink and your kids are grown and you’ll miss it. You will not feel secure in your financial state.

(13:45): You will wish that you were there for your children more. And so really it was last year I made an effort to prioritize that and am very protective of that in 2026.

Debbi (13:55): That is the best advice I’ve heard in a long time. I just think that is great advice. And everybody who writes should listen to you. Protect yourself, your time, your personal life, your family. All of these things matter, your community, whatever.

Ryan (14:16): Well, there’s that saying the days are slow, but the years fly by, and it’s so true.

Debbi (14:20): Very, very.

Ryan (14:21): It’s just so true. And I look at that and already I was thinking about this interview last night and just how much my life has changed since I first became published in 2022. And I now have six novels out in that time, and I have three more coming out this year. So it’s been a lot. It’s like drinking from a fire hose. And it’s very easy to lose sight of your most important role as father, husband, if you have kids or a wife or family. But even beyond that, just protecting your personal time and personal relationships. I wish I’d have done a better job with that. And now I’m very vocal in advising others. Don’t make the mistakes that I did and prioritize family. Yeah.

Debbi (15:09): Amen to that. Yeah, I hear you. Loud and clear. Boy. What authors have you found to be most inspiring and influential on your work?

Ryan (15:20): So Vince Flynn is my all- time favorite writer. He wrote the number one New York Times bestselling Mitch Rapp series. After his death in 2000, I think it was 12, Kyle Mills, who’s a friend of mine, another number one New York Times bestselling author, took over the Mitch Rapp series and wrote in that for about a decade, wrote nine books. And now Don Bentley, another New York Times bestselling author has sort of picked up the mantle and continued it forward and is doing an excellent job. Vince Flynn is by far the writer who’s influenced me the most because he’s the reason I fell in love with books. I have six kids and my youngest son’s name is Mitchell after Mitch Rapp, Vince’s character. And then second to him, CJ Box is just an all-time favorite of mine. Him and Vince are really my 1A and my 1B.

(16:13): I look at his career and there’s nothing the guy can’t write. I think his Joe Pickett series is the best franchise in print today, regardless of genre, and I’m really in awe of what he can do. More recent writers, Jack Carr is really this day’s modern Tom Clancy of his generation. Jack Carr, number one New York Time bestselling author of The Terminal List series. Brad Thor is another guy I really enjoy. So for sure, a lot of writers were influential in me. I would say being where I’m at with my Redd series in Tyndale, Josie Rosenberg is an author that really I learned a lot from. And then of course, Ted Bell, who was a mentor to me, and now I write his series.

Debbi (16:59): Yeah, yeah. Wow. Sounds like you’ve met some remarkable people too. That helps.

Ryan (17:06): Oh, I’ve been so blessed. Yeah.

Debbi (17:09): That’s fantastic. You aren’t on TikTok, are you?

Ryan (17:14): I think so. Not a lot. Yeah, not a ton.

Debbi (17:17): I was wondering if you did BookTok.

Ryan (17:18): Yeah, no, I think it’s not as trendy for our genre with thrillers and mysteries and all that, but I do pay attention to it.

Debbi (17:28): Well, it’s there. That’s all I can say.

Ryan (17:31): It’s there. Yeah, you’re right about that.

Debbi (17:33): I’m not there, but it’s there. And apparently publishing is relying on it for some reason. Let’s see. What have you read lately that was a real standout book for you, that really spoke to you in some special way?

Ryan (17:52): Yeah. So Brad Thor and Ward Larson, another buddy of mine, they have their first co-written book together called Cold Zero, comes out in February, and I read an advanced copy of that a few months ago, and it is phenomenal. They just announced yesterday that it’s going to be a massive feature film on Netflix, by the way. The book is phenomenal. I’d recommend people check that out. Another writer who’s very near and dear to me is Brad Meltzer, number one New York Times bestselling author of so many books and the host of History Channel’s Decoded and other TV shows. He also writes children books called … It’s the Ordinary People Save the World or something like that. I wish … now it escaped me, but I call them the I Am books because every title is I Am. And he has George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and just historical figures.

(18:43): And it’s near and dear to me because I have a son, my son Ryan Jr., who’s autistic. We were told he would maybe never read. And for someone that works in publishing, I kind of refuse to believe that. And I’ll never forget the day I woke up and Ryan Jr. was sitting on the floor reading one of Brad Meltzer’s I Am books. He was reading I Am Abraham Lincoln out loud. And I’m a big softie with my kids, so I start crying and I couldn’t believe it was a big moment. And so I reach out to Brad Meltzer and he sent my son a video of himself, congratulating him. Then he sent a bunch of signed books to my kid. And later when PBS made a TV show, Xavier Riddle and the Secret Museum based off of the I Am books, kids’ books that Meltzer writes, my son was so excited to see that and sent a video to Brad and Brad immediately got right back to him.

(19:35): So I really love that guy. But in addition to being one of the best people in publishing, he is a phenomenal writer. And so he’s got a new book that just came out Tuesday, January 6th.

Debbi (19:46):The Viper?

Ryan (19:46): The Viper. Yeah. That’s a good one.

Debbi (19:49): I have a copy. It’s sitting there waiting for me to read it. I’ve got to read this thing.

Ryan (19:55): He is one of those guys that, because of what my job is, I always know what the book is about. It’s my job to cover and let you know this book is coming way before I even get to read it. But if I walked away from publishing tomorrow and I knew nothing and I walked in a store and I saw Brad Meltzer’s name on a book, I’d buy it, no questions asked.

Debbi (20:14): Well, I have a story about Brad Meltzer. I have never met him actually, but it’s interesting. I have a story about his book, one of his books.

(20:24): When I first self-published, this was after, this is a short story about me. I hope you don’t mind. I was with a small press back in 2005 that went out of business nine months after my book came out and I’m like, oh, now what? So then I decided to self-publish and I came out with a book. It’s called Identity Crisis. And the funny thing was there was another book called Identity Crisis out there by Brad Meltzer. I was like, oh my God, we both chose the title. Somebody chose the title, Identity Crisis for him or he chose it. I don’t know which. So I was just like, “Oh my God, we have the same title. How about that? ” So I’ve always felt this weird interest in him. What made you choose that title and what’s your book about? And I never did read it.

Ryan (21:16): It’s a good book, I’ll tell you that. It is a good book. Everything he writes is phenomenal.

Debbi (21:20): Oh my gosh. Well, I can’t say that mine was phenomenal. It was my first. So forgive me if it wasn’t phenomenal like yours, but still even so. Yeah. So I just think he’s always been kind of interesting to me. So now I have to definitely read that book.

Ryan (21:38): Yeah, check out The Viper. It’s a good one.

Debbi (21:40): The Viper. Alrighty. Do you read books in other genres or do you not have time for that?

Ryan (21:46): Well, I mean, yeah, it’s tough because if I’m being perfectly honest with you, when I’m not working on The Book Spy, I’m not writing one of my books, the last thing I want to do is pick up a book. Generally, I’m more like, let’s do anything else. So yeah, I read nonfiction for sure. I read a lot of books that deal with theology and biblical content, things like that. I read the Bible, I read kids’ books with my children, stuff like that. But I don’t what I would call pleasure read very often, which is like, “Hey, I’m not covering this book. It’s outside of my genre, but it looks cool. I think I’ll check it out.” That’s pretty rare.

Debbi (22:32): See, I can’t seem to limit myself. I have to go outside of the genre every now and then.

Ryan (22:37): Sure.

Debbi (22:38): This sounds like a fascinating sci-fi or fantasy or I got to read this Terry Pratchett book, I haven’t gotten to it yet. Things like that.

Ryan (22:47): Yeah.

Debbi (22:47): Just like, I don’t know. What advice would you give to someone who’s interested in a writing career?

Ryan (22:57): Well, you have to love it. You have to love storytelling. Don’t write one book and then go, okay, I’m going to try to get an agent, try to get a publisher. And if I get one, I’ll keep writing. Writers write. It’s not an agent or book deal or publisher that validates you as a writer. If you’re writing, you’re a writer. So always be writing. That’s my number one piece of advice. Don’t finish a book and start querying it and then do nothing. Keep writing. While you query that book, while you query agents and you’re trying to land one, keep writing. Always be writing. And a lot of times, if you look up your favorite author and you maybe hear how they got into the industry, very few people ever break in with the first book they wrote. They’ll write several before an agent gives them any attention.

(23:43): And another writer I really love and a guy I admire so much, Steve Berry. Steve, I think, wrote 12 manuscripts before he got published. I think a lot of people give up way too early. And so just keep writing and put your head down and go write.

Debbi (23:58): Yes. Great advice. Absolutely. Is there anything else you’d like to add while we’re on that I haven’t covered?

Ryan (24:08): Just that if you’re new to my books, I wrote them that you could, in a way, so you could jump in anywhere. I think there’s probably more value in starting at the beginning with Fields of Fire. So that way you’re familiar with the characters throughout. But if you’re in the bookstore and you see one and it’s not the first one, you really honestly can jump in anywhere and I try to write them so that each story stands on its own and you’ll kind of know what’s happening, but I hope you’ll check them out. And to you, Debbi, just thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Debbi (24:39): Well, it was my pleasure. Very much so, Ryan. Thank you for being here. And I will now switch over. Here I am. Okay, on video. Yes. Thank you very much for being here today, Ryan. I do appreciate it. And I’m hoping to make some changes to both my Patreon and Substack pages. So hopefully there’ll be changes for the better. And if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Patrons of the podcast get early ad-free episodes along with copies of the Crime Cafe story collections, which include a box set and short story anthology. There’s also a monthly newsletter where I include my reviews, new releases, and other items of possible interest to crime and mystery lovers. So check it out. And until next time when our guest will be Douglas J. Wood, take care and happy reading.

Debbi (00:52): Hi everyone. Welcome to 2026. Our first show of the new year features the author of the Matthew Redd Thriller Series. He’s also a freelance developmental editor, which is an important thing to have if you’re self-publishing, and an author/publisher of The Real Book Spy on Substack. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest Ryan Steck. Hi, Ryan. How are you doing today?

Ryan (01:20): Hi, Debbi. Thank you so much for having me.

Debbi (01:23): I am very happy to have you on, even though you are wearing a Yankees cap.

Ryan (01:27): I know.

Debbi (01:27): I can live with that. It’s cool. I have Yankee fan friends, even though I’m a Met fan and a Nationals fan. I’m a National League fan. I don’t know.

Ryan (01:38): Well, I was telling you before we started to record, I’m actually a Tigers fan too, but I’m from Kalamazoo, Michigan, which is where Derek Jeter grew up. So I always loved the captain and rooted for the Yankees since I was a little kid.

Debbi (01:51): Very cool. That’s a very cool reason to root for him, too.

Ryan (01:55): Yeah.

Debbi (01:55): There you go. So anyway, happy new year. Glad to have you on. Thanks for being with us. What inspired you to write a thriller series?

Ryan (02:06): Oh, I think I’ve always loved to tell stories and I love thrillers. I love mysteries. Way before I was actually writing books, a fan of the genre, it was through talking with other authors. So I came from sports journalism and covering NFL teams, primarily the Detroit Lions, and then sort of made my transition into publishing. And at the time, I tried writing for other media outlets, writing book reviews and author interviews, but I didn’t love that I was told what books I had to review or which authors I had to talk to. I wanted to be in control of myself and my own boss. And so I was friends with a lot of the authors that I was covering. And the one thing I kept hearing from everybody is that there’s no one-stop shop for all things thriller. And it was a good friend of mine who was a mentor.

(02:58): His name was Ted Bell, New York Time bestselling author, Ted Bell, of the Alex Hawk series. Ted’s a guy I worked with for a while and he really mentored me in writing. But he said, “Buddy, if you build a website, we’ll come. We’ll support you. We’ll be there.”

So I launched The Real Book Spy at the end of 2014. And by 2016, we were averaging a million readers a year. And I think by 2018 … Yeah, I think it was 2018, we crossed two million readers for the first time and have hung around two and a half million readers a year or so on that. And I’m super proud of that. But at the same time, I’m so used to being on your side of the conversation that when I did become an author, it took time to learn to be on this side. And I just want to make another note too. The Matthew Redd series is my own books, but I also write now for the late Ted Bell’s estate.

(03:49): So the guy that really mentored me that helped me launch The Book Spy passed away a few years ago and initially I took over his series for Penguin Random House. And now we just signed a new three-book deal with Blackstone to continue the Hawk series. So I get to write those too. And I guess what led to me wanting to write my own books, I just always wanted to tell stories. And I bring a different, I think, perspective. A lot of guys in my genre, they’re ex-military, ex-special forces, ex-law enforcement, that kind of a thing. And I’m a father. I have six kids. I’m married. I know family life. People say write what you know. And I don’t agree with that because if I did, my books would all be about a dad who’s trying to figure out how to make it to everyone’s gymnastics and how to volunteer at church and all these other things.

(04:43): I believe in write what you want to read. And I love the West and I love lone wolf operators. And I felt like, man, we haven’t seen a lot of that. What does Jack Ryan or Jason Bourne look like out West? And I wanted to explore that. So I was very blessed to have a literary agent. And I said to him one day, “I think I want to write Jason Bourne.” Or I said to him, “I want to write Vince Flynn meets CJ Box, two of my all time two favorite authors.” I remember my agent at the time said, “What’s that look like? ” And I said, “I don’t know, give me a year. I’m going to figure it out. ” And I wrote my first novel, Fields of Fire set in Montana starring a former Marine raider named Matthew Redd and have been fortunate enough to write three books that are already published after that.

(05:32): And I’m under contract for two more with the next one coming out this year called Target Down.

Debbi (05:40): Wow. So you have something coming out this year, and what are you working on now?

Ryan (05:48): Yeah, so it’s actually a big year for me. I have three books out this year.

Debbi (05:52): Wow.

Ryan (05:53): So I have my second Alex Hawk novel that again, I took over for the late Ted Bell, who’s a mentor and dear friend of mine. Ted Bell’s Warmonger comes out March 31st. And then sometime this summer, my fifth Matthew Redd novel, that’s my own series. And then the franchise I’m most passionate about comes out … I would think we’re targeting July, August, September range. I don’t think we have a pub date just yet. And then my third book is … Actually, the second book I co-wrote with a friend of mine named Simon Gervais. Our first book, The Second Son, is published by Thomas and Mercer. And that book came out officially December 1st, 2025. Already has been a bestseller on Amazon overall and has 6,000 reviews so far and growing in just over a month. So we’re really psyched and our second book in that series will come out in November.

(06:50): It’s called The Marked Sun. So it’s a three-book year for me. And I’ve been mostly storing up energy to get ready for this year because of it.

Debbi (07:00): Yeah. Wow. Well, congratulations. That’s absolutely fantastic. You’ve had some amazing success with Substack too.That’s really something.

Ryan (07:11): Thank you.

Debbi (07:14): What do you ascribe? What do you think has led to getting so many subscribers so quickly?

Ryan (07:22): Well, I think with The Real Book Spy, there was just really no one-stop shop for all things thriller, and people were hungry for that.

(07:32): I didn’t initially launch the site on Substack. It’s just therealbookspy.com still exists. We moved to Substack last August as a way to just build on what we’re doing. And it’s been a great move, not only for us, but for our audience, I think, and a better way to communicate and connect with people. But I look at it as my wife watches the Oscars every year, and I don’t. I’ll look and see who won Best Picture and this and that. I’ve never heard of any of the movies that win, by the way, let alone seen them. I’ve never even heard of them. And it’s funny to me that those are the ones that win, but I’ve seen every billion dollar franchise. I’ve seen every Fast and the Furious or Mission Impossible or the Marvel movies, and those never win awards or accolades. And I really think that in our business and publishing, the equivalent of that is the thriller genre.

(08:27): So they go out and sell really well and millions of readers, but they don’t ever win awards. They don’t win literary awards and things like that, but yet people love them. So I think just launching something to give readers more inside access, that was really my approach was to bring you an insider’s perspective to everything happening. So cover all the books for sure. I want you to know what books are coming out, but I also want you to know when authors sign new book deals and interview those writers and cover things a little differently than what anyone else was doing. And I think that really helped us take off for sure.

Debbi (09:06): Yeah. Yeah. Doing something a little bit different than everybody else.

Ryan (09:11): Yeah, that’s right.

Debbi (09:11): Very specific too, for a specific audience. Those are good insights. Let’s see. How often do you publish Book Spy?

Ryan (09:26): Frequently. I mean, whenever we have news, we’re trying to put something on Substack every day, every other day at the minimum. Sometimes maybe there’s not enough news going around. So a few times a week, but definitely with Substack, it’s a subscription model. If people are spending $8 a month or $80 a year, I want to make sure you get most bang for your books. So we are for sure rolling out content there. Big things too. I think we’re the only source on the internet that has a full lineup of 2026 releases, every mystery, every thriller in one spot. So it’s content like that. Sure, we’re doing reviews, book announcement, cover reviews, author interviews, but also different type of lists. Again, the goal is always to help good readers find good books.

Debbi (10:15): How do you find the books that you feature on your Substack?

Ryan (10:20): Oh man, I have a great relationship with a lot of the publishers. That’s required. Yep. I need to know them, trust the marketing teams and the publicists when they send me something, they think it’s probably a fit for our audience and then we need to evaluate is it? I would say that I’m not going to review books I don’t like. So the one thing I don’t do is a lot of bad reviews. And I know that there’s been times in the last 10, 11 years where people have said, “Man, do you just love every book you read because you post a lot of good reviews?” And I said, “Well, no, but I don’t finish books I don’t like.” There’s really no value in it. Writing a bad review doesn’t help me, doesn’t really help you, doesn’t help the author. I don’t want my approach to be, here’s all the books you shouldn’t check out.

(11:04): I want it to be, here’s all the books that are available. Here’s the ones I think you’ll like, but everyone has their own taste. And so I might not review a book I don’t like, but I’m smart enough to know that just because I don’t like it doesn’t mean someone else won’t. So we might add it to a monthly reading guide or something like that. But really, I think over 11 years, we got a pretty good feel for what our readers are looking for and we try to tailor everything to them.

Debbi (11:30): Yeah, that’s good. That’s an excellent approach. Did you do a lot of surveys or anything of your readership before you launched the Substack?

Ryan (11:41): No, not like official polls or surveys. I don’t think we need to because of just the volume of messages and comments and things that we receive and have received for over a decade. So therealbooksbuy.com existed for over a decade before we even launched the Substack. So I felt like people had weighed in enough over the years that we had a pretty good understanding of what it is they were looking for.

Debbi (12:05): So you were just getting that feedback anyway?

Ryan (12:07): Absolutely. Yeah.

Debbi (12:09): That’s fantastic. What authors … Oh, you also do freelance editing.

Ryan (12:18): Not so much anymore. I did for a long time, but these days I’m writing three books a year and still overseeing everything Book Spy related, I just don’t have the time.

Debbi (12:28): I was going to say, how do you balance out your time? How do you structure your time to fit in this stuff?

Ryan (12:35): Yeah, it’s already a challenge. Because again, being an author, being a Book Spy, my first job is really husband and father. So finding balance is something I’ve struggled with for over a decade. And it really wasn’t until last year I decided, look, stuff’s got to change. I have to priororitize this idea that you blink and you miss your kids growing up, it’s so real.

(13:00): It’s so real. And the issue that I have is I feel like every time I lock away on deadline to finish a book, I come out of my office and my kids all look five years older. In my head, one of my sons, I literally still picture him as eight, maybe the oldest at 12, and he’s going to be 15 this year. It’s really hard for me. The emotional and sentimental side of me regrets maybe having tied up so much of my time in books over the years. And I wish I would’ve done a better job with balance. And that’s the advice I give a lot of people now is don’t feel like you have to go chase money or careers or this or that. You will blink and your kids are grown and you’ll miss it. You will not feel secure in your financial state.

(13:45): You will wish that you were there for your children more. And so really it was last year I made an effort to prioritize that and am very protective of that in 2026.

Debbi (13:55): That is the best advice I’ve heard in a long time. I just think that is great advice. And everybody who writes should listen to you. Protect yourself, your time, your personal life, your family. All of these things matter, your community, whatever.

Ryan (14:16): Well, there’s that saying the days are slow, but the years fly by, and it’s so true.

Debbi (14:20): Very, very.

Ryan (14:21): It’s just so true. And I look at that and already I was thinking about this interview last night and just how much my life has changed since I first became published in 2022. And I now have six novels out in that time, and I have three more coming out this year. So it’s been a lot. It’s like drinking from a fire hose. And it’s very easy to lose sight of your most important role as father, husband, if you have kids or a wife or family. But even beyond that, just protecting your personal time and personal relationships. I wish I’d have done a better job with that. And now I’m very vocal in advising others. Don’t make the mistakes that I did and prioritize family. Yeah.

Debbi (15:09): Amen to that. Yeah, I hear you. Loud and clear. Boy. What authors have you found to be most inspiring and influential on your work?

Ryan (15:20): So Vince Flynn is my all- time favorite writer. He wrote the number one New York Times bestselling Mitch Rapp series. After his death in 2000, I think it was 12, Kyle Mills, who’s a friend of mine, another number one New York Times bestselling author, took over the Mitch Rapp series and wrote in that for about a decade, wrote nine books. And now Don Bentley, another New York Times bestselling author has sort of picked up the mantle and continued it forward and is doing an excellent job. Vince Flynn is by far the writer who’s influenced me the most because he’s the reason I fell in love with books. I have six kids and my youngest son’s name is Mitchell after Mitch Rapp, Vince’s character. And then second to him, CJ Box is just an all-time favorite of mine. Him and Vince are really my 1A and my 1B.

(16:13): I look at his career and there’s nothing the guy can’t write. I think his Joe Pickett series is the best franchise in print today, regardless of genre, and I’m really in awe of what he can do. More recent writers, Jack Carr is really this day’s modern Tom Clancy of his generation. Jack Carr, number one New York Time bestselling author of The Terminal List series. Brad Thor is another guy I really enjoy. So for sure, a lot of writers were influential in me. I would say being where I’m at with my Redd series in Tyndale, Josie Rosenberg is an author that really I learned a lot from. And then of course, Ted Bell, who was a mentor to me, and now I write his series.

Debbi (16:59): Yeah, yeah. Wow. Sounds like you’ve met some remarkable people too. That helps.

Ryan (17:06): Oh, I’ve been so blessed. Yeah.

Debbi (17:09): That’s fantastic. You aren’t on TikTok, are you?

Ryan (17:14): I think so. Not a lot. Yeah, not a ton.

Debbi (17:17): I was wondering if you did BookTok.

Ryan (17:18): Yeah, no, I think it’s not as trendy for our genre with thrillers and mysteries and all that, but I do pay attention to it.

Debbi (17:28): Well, it’s there. That’s all I can say.

Ryan (17:31): It’s there. Yeah, you’re right about that.

Debbi (17:33): I’m not there, but it’s there. And apparently publishing is relying on it for some reason. Let’s see. What have you read lately that was a real standout book for you, that really spoke to you in some special way?

Ryan (17:52): Yeah. So Brad Thor and Ward Larson, another buddy of mine, they have their first co-written book together called Cold Zero, comes out in February, and I read an advanced copy of that a few months ago, and it is phenomenal. They just announced yesterday that it’s going to be a massive feature film on Netflix, by the way. The book is phenomenal. I’d recommend people check that out. Another writer who’s very near and dear to me is Brad Meltzer, number one New York Times bestselling author of so many books and the host of History Channel’s Decoded and other TV shows. He also writes children books called … It’s the Ordinary People Save the World or something like that. I wish … now it escaped me, but I call them the I Am books because every title is I Am. And he has George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and just historical figures.

(18:43): And it’s near and dear to me because I have a son, my son Ryan Jr., who’s autistic. We were told he would maybe never read. And for someone that works in publishing, I kind of refuse to believe that. And I’ll never forget the day I woke up and Ryan Jr. was sitting on the floor reading one of Brad Meltzer’s I Am books. He was reading I Am Abraham Lincoln out loud. And I’m a big softie with my kids, so I start crying and I couldn’t believe it was a big moment. And so I reach out to Brad Meltzer and he sent my son a video of himself, congratulating him. Then he sent a bunch of signed books to my kid. And later when PBS made a TV show, Xavier Riddle and the Secret Museum based off of the I Am books, kids’ books that Meltzer writes, my son was so excited to see that and sent a video to Brad and Brad immediately got right back to him.

(19:35): So I really love that guy. But in addition to being one of the best people in publishing, he is a phenomenal writer. And so he’s got a new book that just came out Tuesday, January 6th.

Debbi (19:46):The Viper?

Ryan (19:46): The Viper. Yeah. That’s a good one.

Debbi (19:49): I have a copy. It’s sitting there waiting for me to read it. I’ve got to read this thing.

Ryan (19:55): He is one of those guys that, because of what my job is, I always know what the book is about. It’s my job to cover and let you know this book is coming way before I even get to read it. But if I walked away from publishing tomorrow and I knew nothing and I walked in a store and I saw Brad Meltzer’s name on a book, I’d buy it, no questions asked.

Debbi (20:14): Well, I have a story about Brad Meltzer. I have never met him actually, but it’s interesting. I have a story about his book, one of his books.

(20:24): When I first self-published, this was after, this is a short story about me. I hope you don’t mind. I was with a small press back in 2005 that went out of business nine months after my book came out and I’m like, oh, now what? So then I decided to self-publish and I came out with a book. It’s called Identity Crisis. And the funny thing was there was another book called Identity Crisis out there by Brad Meltzer. I was like, oh my God, we both chose the title. Somebody chose the title, Identity Crisis for him or he chose it. I don’t know which. So I was just like, “Oh my God, we have the same title. How about that? ” So I’ve always felt this weird interest in him. What made you choose that title and what’s your book about? And I never did read it.

Ryan (21:16): It’s a good book, I’ll tell you that. It is a good book. Everything he writes is phenomenal.

Debbi (21:20): Oh my gosh. Well, I can’t say that mine was phenomenal. It was my first. So forgive me if it wasn’t phenomenal like yours, but still even so. Yeah. So I just think he’s always been kind of interesting to me. So now I have to definitely read that book.

Ryan (21:38): Yeah, check out The Viper. It’s a good one.

Debbi (21:40): The Viper. Alrighty. Do you read books in other genres or do you not have time for that?

Ryan (21:46): Well, I mean, yeah, it’s tough because if I’m being perfectly honest with you, when I’m not working on The Book Spy, I’m not writing one of my books, the last thing I want to do is pick up a book. Generally, I’m more like, let’s do anything else. So yeah, I read nonfiction for sure. I read a lot of books that deal with theology and biblical content, things like that. I read the Bible, I read kids’ books with my children, stuff like that. But I don’t what I would call pleasure read very often, which is like, “Hey, I’m not covering this book. It’s outside of my genre, but it looks cool. I think I’ll check it out.” That’s pretty rare.

Debbi (22:32): See, I can’t seem to limit myself. I have to go outside of the genre every now and then.

Ryan (22:37): Sure.

Debbi (22:38): This sounds like a fascinating sci-fi or fantasy or I got to read this Terry Pratchett book, I haven’t gotten to it yet. Things like that.

Ryan (22:47): Yeah.

Debbi (22:47): Just like, I don’t know. What advice would you give to someone who’s interested in a writing career?

Ryan (22:57): Well, you have to love it. You have to love storytelling. Don’t write one book and then go, okay, I’m going to try to get an agent, try to get a publisher. And if I get one, I’ll keep writing. Writers write. It’s not an agent or book deal or publisher that validates you as a writer. If you’re writing, you’re a writer. So always be writing. That’s my number one piece of advice. Don’t finish a book and start querying it and then do nothing. Keep writing. While you query that book, while you query agents and you’re trying to land one, keep writing. Always be writing. And a lot of times, if you look up your favorite author and you maybe hear how they got into the industry, very few people ever break in with the first book they wrote. They’ll write several before an agent gives them any attention.

(23:43): And another writer I really love and a guy I admire so much, Steve Berry. Steve, I think, wrote 12 manuscripts before he got published. I think a lot of people give up way too early. And so just keep writing and put your head down and go write.

Debbi (23:58): Yes. Great advice. Absolutely. Is there anything else you’d like to add while we’re on that I haven’t covered?

Ryan (24:08): Just that if you’re new to my books, I wrote them that you could, in a way, so you could jump in anywhere. I think there’s probably more value in starting at the beginning with Fields of Fire. So that way you’re familiar with the characters throughout. But if you’re in the bookstore and you see one and it’s not the first one, you really honestly can jump in anywhere and I try to write them so that each story stands on its own and you’ll kind of know what’s happening, but I hope you’ll check them out. And to you, Debbi, just thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Debbi (24:39): Well, it was my pleasure. Very much so, Ryan. Thank you for being here. And I will now switch over. Here I am. Okay, on video. Yes. Thank you very much for being here today, Ryan. I do appreciate it. And I’m hoping to make some changes to both my Patreon and Substack pages. So hopefully there’ll be changes for the better. And if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Patrons of the podcast get early ad-free episodes along with copies of the Crime Cafe story collections, which include a box set and short story anthology. There’s also a monthly newsletter where I include my reviews, new releases, and other items of possible interest to crime and mystery lovers. So check it out. And until next time when our guest will be Douglas J. Wood, take care and happy reading.

Debbi (00:52): Hi everyone. Welcome to 2026. Our first show of the new year features the author of the Matthew Redd Thriller Series. He’s also a freelance developmental editor, which is an important thing to have if you’re self-publishing, and an author/publisher of The Real Book Spy on Substack. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest Ryan Steck. Hi, Ryan. How are you doing today?

Ryan (01:20): Hi, Debbi. Thank you so much for having me.

Debbi (01:23): I am very happy to have you on, even though you are wearing a Yankees cap.

Ryan (01:27): I know.

Debbi (01:27): I can live with that. It’s cool. I have Yankee fan friends, even though I’m a Met fan and a Nationals fan. I’m a National League fan. I don’t know.

Ryan (01:38): Well, I was telling you before we started to record, I’m actually a Tigers fan too, but I’m from Kalamazoo, Michigan, which is where Derek Jeter grew up. So I always loved the captain and rooted for the Yankees since I was a little kid.

Debbi (01:51): Very cool. That’s a very cool reason to root for him, too.

Ryan (01:55): Yeah.

Debbi (01:55): There you go. So anyway, happy new year. Glad to have you on. Thanks for being with us. What inspired you to write a thriller series?

Ryan (02:06): Oh, I think I’ve always loved to tell stories and I love thrillers. I love mysteries. Way before I was actually writing books, a fan of the genre, it was through talking with other authors. So I came from sports journalism and covering NFL teams, primarily the Detroit Lions, and then sort of made my transition into publishing. And at the time, I tried writing for other media outlets, writing book reviews and author interviews, but I didn’t love that I was told what books I had to review or which authors I had to talk to. I wanted to be in control of myself and my own boss. And so I was friends with a lot of the authors that I was covering. And the one thing I kept hearing from everybody is that there’s no one-stop shop for all things thriller. And it was a good friend of mine who was a mentor.

(02:58): His name was Ted Bell, New York Time bestselling author, Ted Bell, of the Alex Hawk series. Ted’s a guy I worked with for a while and he really mentored me in writing. But he said, “Buddy, if you build a website, we’ll come. We’ll support you. We’ll be there.”

So I launched The Real Book Spy at the end of 2014. And by 2016, we were averaging a million readers a year. And I think by 2018 … Yeah, I think it was 2018, we crossed two million readers for the first time and have hung around two and a half million readers a year or so on that. And I’m super proud of that. But at the same time, I’m so used to being on your side of the conversation that when I did become an author, it took time to learn to be on this side. And I just want to make another note too. The Matthew Redd series is my own books, but I also write now for the late Ted Bell’s estate.

(03:49): So the guy that really mentored me that helped me launch The Book Spy passed away a few years ago and initially I took over his series for Penguin Random House. And now we just signed a new three-book deal with Blackstone to continue the Hawk series. So I get to write those too. And I guess what led to me wanting to write my own books, I just always wanted to tell stories. And I bring a different, I think, perspective. A lot of guys in my genre, they’re ex-military, ex-special forces, ex-law enforcement, that kind of a thing. And I’m a father. I have six kids. I’m married. I know family life. People say write what you know. And I don’t agree with that because if I did, my books would all be about a dad who’s trying to figure out how to make it to everyone’s gymnastics and how to volunteer at church and all these other things.

(04:43): I believe in write what you want to read. And I love the West and I love lone wolf operators. And I felt like, man, we haven’t seen a lot of that. What does Jack Ryan or Jason Bourne look like out West? And I wanted to explore that. So I was very blessed to have a literary agent. And I said to him one day, “I think I want to write Jason Bourne.” Or I said to him, “I want to write Vince Flynn meets CJ Box, two of my all time two favorite authors.” I remember my agent at the time said, “What’s that look like? ” And I said, “I don’t know, give me a year. I’m going to figure it out. ” And I wrote my first novel, Fields of Fire set in Montana starring a former Marine raider named Matthew Redd and have been fortunate enough to write three books that are already published after that.

(05:32): And I’m under contract for two more with the next one coming out this year called Target Down.

Debbi (05:40): Wow. So you have something coming out this year, and what are you working on now?

Ryan (05:48): Yeah, so it’s actually a big year for me. I have three books out this year.

Debbi (05:52): Wow.

Ryan (05:53): So I have my second Alex Hawk novel that again, I took over for the late Ted Bell, who’s a mentor and dear friend of mine. Ted Bell’s Warmonger comes out March 31st. And then sometime this summer, my fifth Matthew Redd novel, that’s my own series. And then the franchise I’m most passionate about comes out … I would think we’re targeting July, August, September range. I don’t think we have a pub date just yet. And then my third book is … Actually, the second book I co-wrote with a friend of mine named Simon Gervais. Our first book, The Second Son, is published by Thomas and Mercer. And that book came out officially December 1st, 2025. Already has been a bestseller on Amazon overall and has 6,000 reviews so far and growing in just over a month. So we’re really psyched and our second book in that series will come out in November.

(06:50): It’s called The Marked Sun. So it’s a three-book year for me. And I’ve been mostly storing up energy to get ready for this year because of it.

Debbi (07:00): Yeah. Wow. Well, congratulations. That’s absolutely fantastic. You’ve had some amazing success with Substack too.That’s really something.

Ryan (07:11): Thank you.

Debbi (07:14): What do you ascribe? What do you think has led to getting so many subscribers so quickly?

Ryan (07:22): Well, I think with The Real Book Spy, there was just really no one-stop shop for all things thriller, and people were hungry for that.

(07:32): I didn’t initially launch the site on Substack. It’s just therealbookspy.com still exists. We moved to Substack last August as a way to just build on what we’re doing. And it’s been a great move, not only for us, but for our audience, I think, and a better way to communicate and connect with people. But I look at it as my wife watches the Oscars every year, and I don’t. I’ll look and see who won Best Picture and this and that. I’ve never heard of any of the movies that win, by the way, let alone seen them. I’ve never even heard of them. And it’s funny to me that those are the ones that win, but I’ve seen every billion dollar franchise. I’ve seen every Fast and the Furious or Mission Impossible or the Marvel movies, and those never win awards or accolades. And I really think that in our business and publishing, the equivalent of that is the thriller genre.

(08:27): So they go out and sell really well and millions of readers, but they don’t ever win awards. They don’t win literary awards and things like that, but yet people love them. So I think just launching something to give readers more inside access, that was really my approach was to bring you an insider’s perspective to everything happening. So cover all the books for sure. I want you to know what books are coming out, but I also want you to know when authors sign new book deals and interview those writers and cover things a little differently than what anyone else was doing. And I think that really helped us take off for sure.

Debbi (09:06): Yeah. Yeah. Doing something a little bit different than everybody else.

Ryan (09:11): Yeah, that’s right.

Debbi (09:11): Very specific too, for a specific audience. Those are good insights. Let’s see. How often do you publish Book Spy?

Ryan (09:26): Frequently. I mean, whenever we have news, we’re trying to put something on Substack every day, every other day at the minimum. Sometimes maybe there’s not enough news going around. So a few times a week, but definitely with Substack, it’s a subscription model. If people are spending $8 a month or $80 a year, I want to make sure you get most bang for your books. So we are for sure rolling out content there. Big things too. I think we’re the only source on the internet that has a full lineup of 2026 releases, every mystery, every thriller in one spot. So it’s content like that. Sure, we’re doing reviews, book announcement, cover reviews, author interviews, but also different type of lists. Again, the goal is always to help good readers find good books.

Debbi (10:15): How do you find the books that you feature on your Substack?

Ryan (10:20): Oh man, I have a great relationship with a lot of the publishers. That’s required. Yep. I need to know them, trust the marketing teams and the publicists when they send me something, they think it’s probably a fit for our audience and then we need to evaluate is it? I would say that I’m not going to review books I don’t like. So the one thing I don’t do is a lot of bad reviews. And I know that there’s been times in the last 10, 11 years where people have said, “Man, do you just love every book you read because you post a lot of good reviews?” And I said, “Well, no, but I don’t finish books I don’t like.” There’s really no value in it. Writing a bad review doesn’t help me, doesn’t really help you, doesn’t help the author. I don’t want my approach to be, here’s all the books you shouldn’t check out.

(11:04): I want it to be, here’s all the books that are available. Here’s the ones I think you’ll like, but everyone has their own taste. And so I might not review a book I don’t like, but I’m smart enough to know that just because I don’t like it doesn’t mean someone else won’t. So we might add it to a monthly reading guide or something like that. But really, I think over 11 years, we got a pretty good feel for what our readers are looking for and we try to tailor everything to them.

Debbi (11:30): Yeah, that’s good. That’s an excellent approach. Did you do a lot of surveys or anything of your readership before you launched the Substack?

Ryan (11:41): No, not like official polls or surveys. I don’t think we need to because of just the volume of messages and comments and things that we receive and have received for over a decade. So therealbooksbuy.com existed for over a decade before we even launched the Substack. So I felt like people had weighed in enough over the years that we had a pretty good understanding of what it is they were looking for.

Debbi (12:05): So you were just getting that feedback anyway?

Ryan (12:07): Absolutely. Yeah.

Debbi (12:09): That’s fantastic. What authors … Oh, you also do freelance editing.

Ryan (12:18): Not so much anymore. I did for a long time, but these days I’m writing three books a year and still overseeing everything Book Spy related, I just don’t have the time.

Debbi (12:28): I was going to say, how do you balance out your time? How do you structure your time to fit in this stuff?

Ryan (12:35): Yeah, it’s already a challenge. Because again, being an author, being a Book Spy, my first job is really husband and father. So finding balance is something I’ve struggled with for over a decade. And it really wasn’t until last year I decided, look, stuff’s got to change. I have to priororitize this idea that you blink and you miss your kids growing up, it’s so real.

(13:00): It’s so real. And the issue that I have is I feel like every time I lock away on deadline to finish a book, I come out of my office and my kids all look five years older. In my head, one of my sons, I literally still picture him as eight, maybe the oldest at 12, and he’s going to be 15 this year. It’s really hard for me. The emotional and sentimental side of me regrets maybe having tied up so much of my time in books over the years. And I wish I would’ve done a better job with balance. And that’s the advice I give a lot of people now is don’t feel like you have to go chase money or careers or this or that. You will blink and your kids are grown and you’ll miss it. You will not feel secure in your financial state.

(13:45): You will wish that you were there for your children more. And so really it was last year I made an effort to prioritize that and am very protective of that in 2026.

Debbi (13:55): That is the best advice I’ve heard in a long time. I just think that is great advice. And everybody who writes should listen to you. Protect yourself, your time, your personal life, your family. All of these things matter, your community, whatever.

Ryan (14:16): Well, there’s that saying the days are slow, but the years fly by, and it’s so true.

Debbi (14:20): Very, very.

Ryan (14:21): It’s just so true. And I look at that and already I was thinking about this interview last night and just how much my life has changed since I first became published in 2022. And I now have six novels out in that time, and I have three more coming out this year. So it’s been a lot. It’s like drinking from a fire hose. And it’s very easy to lose sight of your most important role as father, husband, if you have kids or a wife or family. But even beyond that, just protecting your personal time and personal relationships. I wish I’d have done a better job with that. And now I’m very vocal in advising others. Don’t make the mistakes that I did and prioritize family. Yeah.

Debbi (15:09): Amen to that. Yeah, I hear you. Loud and clear. Boy. What authors have you found to be most inspiring and influential on your work?

Ryan (15:20): So Vince Flynn is my all- time favorite writer. He wrote the number one New York Times bestselling Mitch Rapp series. After his death in 2000, I think it was 12, Kyle Mills, who’s a friend of mine, another number one New York Times bestselling author, took over the Mitch Rapp series and wrote in that for about a decade, wrote nine books. And now Don Bentley, another New York Times bestselling author has sort of picked up the mantle and continued it forward and is doing an excellent job. Vince Flynn is by far the writer who’s influenced me the most because he’s the reason I fell in love with books. I have six kids and my youngest son’s name is Mitchell after Mitch Rapp, Vince’s character. And then second to him, CJ Box is just an all-time favorite of mine. Him and Vince are really my 1A and my 1B.

(16:13): I look at his career and there’s nothing the guy can’t write. I think his Joe Pickett series is the best franchise in print today, regardless of genre, and I’m really in awe of what he can do. More recent writers, Jack Carr is really this day’s modern Tom Clancy of his generation. Jack Carr, number one New York Time bestselling author of The Terminal List series. Brad Thor is another guy I really enjoy. So for sure, a lot of writers were influential in me. I would say being where I’m at with my Redd series in Tyndale, Josie Rosenberg is an author that really I learned a lot from. And then of course, Ted Bell, who was a mentor to me, and now I write his series.

Debbi (16:59): Yeah, yeah. Wow. Sounds like you’ve met some remarkable people too. That helps.

Ryan (17:06): Oh, I’ve been so blessed. Yeah.

Debbi (17:09): That’s fantastic. You aren’t on TikTok, are you?

Ryan (17:14): I think so. Not a lot. Yeah, not a ton.

Debbi (17:17): I was wondering if you did BookTok.

Ryan (17:18): Yeah, no, I think it’s not as trendy for our genre with thrillers and mysteries and all that, but I do pay attention to it.

Debbi (17:28): Well, it’s there. That’s all I can say.

Ryan (17:31): It’s there. Yeah, you’re right about that.

Debbi (17:33): I’m not there, but it’s there. And apparently publishing is relying on it for some reason. Let’s see. What have you read lately that was a real standout book for you, that really spoke to you in some special way?

Ryan (17:52): Yeah. So Brad Thor and Ward Larson, another buddy of mine, they have their first co-written book together called Cold Zero, comes out in February, and I read an advanced copy of that a few months ago, and it is phenomenal. They just announced yesterday that it’s going to be a massive feature film on Netflix, by the way. The book is phenomenal. I’d recommend people check that out. Another writer who’s very near and dear to me is Brad Meltzer, number one New York Times bestselling author of so many books and the host of History Channel’s Decoded and other TV shows. He also writes children books called … It’s the Ordinary People Save the World or something like that. I wish … now it escaped me, but I call them the I Am books because every title is I Am. And he has George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and just historical figures.

(18:43): And it’s near and dear to me because I have a son, my son Ryan Jr., who’s autistic. We were told he would maybe never read. And for someone that works in publishing, I kind of refuse to believe that. And I’ll never forget the day I woke up and Ryan Jr. was sitting on the floor reading one of Brad Meltzer’s I Am books. He was reading I Am Abraham Lincoln out loud. And I’m a big softie with my kids, so I start crying and I couldn’t believe it was a big moment. And so I reach out to Brad Meltzer and he sent my son a video of himself, congratulating him. Then he sent a bunch of signed books to my kid. And later when PBS made a TV show, Xavier Riddle and the Secret Museum based off of the I Am books, kids’ books that Meltzer writes, my son was so excited to see that and sent a video to Brad and Brad immediately got right back to him.

(19:35): So I really love that guy. But in addition to being one of the best people in publishing, he is a phenomenal writer. And so he’s got a new book that just came out Tuesday, January 6th.

Debbi (19:46):The Viper?

Ryan (19:46): The Viper. Yeah. That’s a good one.

Debbi (19:49): I have a copy. It’s sitting there waiting for me to read it. I’ve got to read this thing.

Ryan (19:55): He is one of those guys that, because of what my job is, I always know what the book is about. It’s my job to cover and let you know this book is coming way before I even get to read it. But if I walked away from publishing tomorrow and I knew nothing and I walked in a store and I saw Brad Meltzer’s name on a book, I’d buy it, no questions asked.

Debbi (20:14): Well, I have a story about Brad Meltzer. I have never met him actually, but it’s interesting. I have a story about his book, one of his books.

(20:24): When I first self-published, this was after, this is a short story about me. I hope you don’t mind. I was with a small press back in 2005 that went out of business nine months after my book came out and I’m like, oh, now what? So then I decided to self-publish and I came out with a book. It’s called Identity Crisis. And the funny thing was there was another book called Identity Crisis out there by Brad Meltzer. I was like, oh my God, we both chose the title. Somebody chose the title, Identity Crisis for him or he chose it. I don’t know which. So I was just like, “Oh my God, we have the same title. How about that? ” So I’ve always felt this weird interest in him. What made you choose that title and what’s your book about? And I never did read it.

Ryan (21:16): It’s a good book, I’ll tell you that. It is a good book. Everything he writes is phenomenal.

Debbi (21:20): Oh my gosh. Well, I can’t say that mine was phenomenal. It was my first. So forgive me if it wasn’t phenomenal like yours, but still even so. Yeah. So I just think he’s always been kind of interesting to me. So now I have to definitely read that book.

Ryan (21:38): Yeah, check out The Viper. It’s a good one.

Debbi (21:40): The Viper. Alrighty. Do you read books in other genres or do you not have time for that?

Ryan (21:46): Well, I mean, yeah, it’s tough because if I’m being perfectly honest with you, when I’m not working on The Book Spy, I’m not writing one of my books, the last thing I want to do is pick up a book. Generally, I’m more like, let’s do anything else. So yeah, I read nonfiction for sure. I read a lot of books that deal with theology and biblical content, things like that. I read the Bible, I read kids’ books with my children, stuff like that. But I don’t what I would call pleasure read very often, which is like, “Hey, I’m not covering this book. It’s outside of my genre, but it looks cool. I think I’ll check it out.” That’s pretty rare.

Debbi (22:32): See, I can’t seem to limit myself. I have to go outside of the genre every now and then.

Ryan (22:37): Sure.

Debbi (22:38): This sounds like a fascinating sci-fi or fantasy or I got to read this Terry Pratchett book, I haven’t gotten to it yet. Things like that.

Ryan (22:47): Yeah.

Debbi (22:47): Just like, I don’t know. What advice would you give to someone who’s interested in a writing career?

Ryan (22:57): Well, you have to love it. You have to love storytelling. Don’t write one book and then go, okay, I’m going to try to get an agent, try to get a publisher. And if I get one, I’ll keep writing. Writers write. It’s not an agent or book deal or publisher that validates you as a writer. If you’re writing, you’re a writer. So always be writing. That’s my number one piece of advice. Don’t finish a book and start querying it and then do nothing. Keep writing. While you query that book, while you query agents and you’re trying to land one, keep writing. Always be writing. And a lot of times, if you look up your favorite author and you maybe hear how they got into the industry, very few people ever break in with the first book they wrote. They’ll write several before an agent gives them any attention.

(23:43): And another writer I really love and a guy I admire so much, Steve Berry. Steve, I think, wrote 12 manuscripts before he got published. I think a lot of people give up way too early. And so just keep writing and put your head down and go write.

Debbi (23:58): Yes. Great advice. Absolutely. Is there anything else you’d like to add while we’re on that I haven’t covered?

Ryan (24:08): Just that if you’re new to my books, I wrote them that you could, in a way, so you could jump in anywhere. I think there’s probably more value in starting at the beginning with Fields of Fire. So that way you’re familiar with the characters throughout. But if you’re in the bookstore and you see one and it’s not the first one, you really honestly can jump in anywhere and I try to write them so that each story stands on its own and you’ll kind of know what’s happening, but I hope you’ll check them out. And to you, Debbi, just thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Debbi (24:39): Well, it was my pleasure. Very much so, Ryan. Thank you for being here. And I will now switch over. Here I am. Okay, on video. Yes. Thank you very much for being here today, Ryan. I do appreciate it. And I’m hoping to make some changes to both my Patreon and Substack pages. So hopefully there’ll be changes for the better. And if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Patrons of the podcast get early ad-free episodes along with copies of the Crime Cafe story collections, which include a box set and short story anthology. There’s also a monthly newsletter where I include my reviews, new releases, and other items of possible interest to crime and mystery lovers. So check it out. And until next time when our guest will be Douglas J. Wood, take care and happy reading.

Be a dear and become a patron.

Cheers! 🙂

View Details

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features an entry from The Adventures of Philip Marlowe, which you can get without the ads here or here. Other than the one in the Old Time Radio ~~broadcast~~ replay.

This episode is called “The Old Acquaintance”. As in, happy new year!

Get ready for 2026!

View Details

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features an entry from The Adventures of Philip Marlowe, which you can get without the ads here or here. Other than the one in the Old Time Radio ~~broadcast~~ replay.

This episode is called “The Friend from Detroit”. The Motor City. 🙂

PS: The Crime Cafe Nine Book Set is on-sale at the reduced price of $2.99 until the end of the year.

Or get a free copy as a patron here.

View Details

My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with semi-retired attorney and crime writer, James Polkinghorn.

Check out our discussion of Liquid Shades of Blue. And a little about the practice of law.

You can download a copy of the transcript here!

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today is semi-retired litigator and trial. He was a semi-retired litigator and trial attorney, is a semi-retired litigator and trial attorney. One of those tenses. And while he was based in Miami and Fort Lauderdale for 39 years, he handled some very interesting, a variety of cases of highly complex matters sometimes. He is originally from Pittsburgh, which fascinates me because I lived in Monroeville for a while. You probably know where that is.

Jim (01:31): Went to the Monroeville Mall.

Debbi (01:32): Oh, yeah. I remember the Monroeville Mall. It was a big deal when I was there. It was new or something, but he moved to Florida when he was 14 with his family, of course, and he now lives in Key West and is working on a follow-up, as I recall, reading from another interview on your novel, Liquid Shades of Blue. Am I correct?

Jim (01:56): That’s right, yep.

Debbi (01:57): Excellent. Very good. It is my pleasure to introduce the author James Polkinghorn. Hi Jim. How are you doing?

Jim (02:05): I’m doing great. How are you? Debbi?

Debbi (02:07): Oh, I’m hanging in there. I’m busy. Busy, but I’m hanging in there and glad to hear you’re doing well. I like your shirt. It goes really well with, even though you’re not in Key West at the moment, you’ve brought a little of that with you.

Jim (02:21): Yeah, believe it or not, this was work attire for me for probably the last 15 years of my career. I sort of stopped wearing suits in the office if I could avoid it. It worked out for me.

Debbi (02:36): Excellent. That is an excellent choice there. Who needs suits? I’m always happy to meet another lawyer turned crime fiction writer. What was it that made you turn to crime fiction as a way of expressing your stories?

Jim (02:54): Well, I’ll tell you, Debbi, for me, it all really goes back to college, when I sort of dabbled with the idea of becoming a writer. I took the usual classes. I was an English joint major. I also majored in political science. But what really happened was my family circumstances at the time were terrible, and I made a conscious decision that I didn’t want to be poor anymore.

(03:32): And so for me, the quickest way to an actual paycheck that was substantial was by going to law school. And so I made that conscious decision to go to law school, and I started that career and God knows it all turned out just fine. I had a long and good career, made money, did all that, and throughout all of that, I was thinking to myself, I always had this idea for a novel in my head, and I never wrote it. And I went on 40 years and finally it was I was about to turn 60 and I was thinking about retiring. I’d had the idea of retiring by age 60, and I was thinking to myself, if you don’t write this novel, if you don’t do it, you’re never going to do it. If you don’t do it now, now’s the time. And so that’s what I did. So I retired and the first thing I did upon retiring was write this book. And it was fairly well received and I enjoyed the process, all of that. And so after it came out and I started writing another one, and so I’ve done that and that’ll be out next year.

Debbi (05:01): Excellent.

Jim (05:04): So anyway, that’s how it all started.

Debbi (05:07): Wow, very interesting. You still are doing the legal work?

Jim (05:13): Well, I have a relationship with my law firm. I don’t actively practice anymore, but believe it or not, this is a national law firm. We’ve got, actually, it’s an international law firm now. We’ve got 35 offices all over the place, and I am now the ethics partner for the whole firm. And so I handle any ethical issue, any lawyer anywhere has, they will call me and we’ll work it out one way or another, conflicts, issues that arise and other things. If they’re accused of unethical behavior in a given case, they’ll call me and we’ll figure out what to do.

Debbi (05:57): This is fascinating.

Jim (05:59): Yeah. Well, I mean, it is a function. Every law firm of our size has somebody like that.

(06:04): So anyway, so that’s what I, since I retired, that’s the role I’ve taken on. And plus I also do some training. I do litigation training, trial trainings, things like that. Mostly in the Fort Lauderdale office, but also elsewhere. But the ethics thing, that’s really the primary relationship that I have with the firm now.

Debbi (06:29): Well, that’s very interesting. Thank you for sharing that. That might be a subject worth exploring, a whole nother podcast maybe because I feel like people don’t know enough about the law and the way lawyers work,

Jim (06:45): And also the ethical challenges that lawyers face really almost every day when they’re dealing with clients, the pressure clients are putting on you. Particularly, I was a defense lawyer. The pressure you experience from clients asking you to do various things and the expectations that clients have for you, it can force you to make some tough decisions. And so I’m there to sort of guide lawyers when they’re faced with those sorts of conundrums.

Debbi (07:16): Well, that’s a good position to be in. It’s good that somebody, they’re doing that. Tell us a little about Liquid Shades of Blue. Your ex-lawyer protagonist turned bar keep in Key West. So this book is clearly not about going to court and being Perry Mason.

Jim (07:36): No, no. I mean, there’s a little bit of legal stuff in there. There’s a case that he has, but it’s really not about that. The book is really about Jack’s quest for redemption and his own desire to regain the self-respect that he lost when he made a fateful decision working for his father, who was a big time plaintiff’s lawyer in Miami. He made a decision after he was accused of wrongdoing. Basically, it was a scheme of double billing in a case that actually was perpetrated by his father. And the father made Jack take the fall for it, and rather than stand up for himself, Jack swallowed it. His father wrote him a big check. He was suspended from the practice of law for six months, and during that six months he left and he went to Miami and he bought this bar. And so then once his suspension was up, he thought about going back to Miami but didn’t, stayed in Key West, ran the bar, and then things happen. And in this case, the big thing that happens is his mother dies of an apparent suicide and his father calls him and basically orders him back to Miami to sort things out. And that’s where it really takes off.

Debbi (09:16): Yeah. Now, your protagonist also has kind of a drinking problem, right?

Jim (09:24): Well, he did. His mother, I don’t know if these things are inherited or not, maybe they are, but his mother had an issue with alcohol and drugs going back to her childhood, and he worries that that’s him. But really, he was one of these guys that, because he was an athlete also, he ran track in college and was also a good football player in high school and all that. He always stayed in a certain shape. And so that always acted as a governor on his worst instincts. And so he always kept his drinking under control, but when some of these bad things happened, he would find himself drinking a little more than he should. And that’s sort of where he was on that fateful morning when his father called him and told him his mother was dead.

Debbi (10:20): Yeah. Yeah. I noticed in your excerpt that you mentioned him waking up kind of groggy. Some woman is next to him.

Jim (10:31): Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Debbi (10:33): Discombobulated to say the least.

Jim (10:34): Right. It was a shocking morning for sure.

Debbi (10:38): I was wondering if that was him as him or kind of a product of where he is, kind of the Key West lifestyle.

Jim (10:51): Well, I think, I don’t say this explicitly in the book, but I believe that that’s true. And I mean, having lived in Key West for a long time, I know how that goes. And people do go there with the idea of, I can keep a handle on this. And they just get caught up in the lifestyle and it churns some people out, so he could have fallen into that trap. But the events of this book actually save him from that. And that’s sort of the redemption he was looking for. And he ultimately, I think, finds it.

Debbi (11:30): Just out of curiosity, it’s been a while since I’ve read the book. What era, when is this taking place? Is it contemporary?

Jim (11:38): It’s fairly current. It would’ve been maybe seven years ago, something like that is what the current time would’ve been. Maybe a little newer than that.

Debbi (11:48): Yeah. Yeah. I was just wondering because a lot of what goes on in Florida is affected by so many things through the decades. I wasn’t quite sure.

Jim (11:59): Yeah. You would say that this was just before COVID is really what this was, because COVID isn’t mentioned.

Debbi (12:08): Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Before all that became a concern. Let’s see. How much do you weave in things about the law and how far in the background do you go with that, or how much do you bring them out?

Jim (12:25): Well, the legal part of it is not particularly important except to explain the way Jack thinks about things. As you well know, one thing a legal education does is it teaches you how to think analytically. That’s really like the cornerstone of a legal education is that ability and the development of it. So he has that, and also his father does. There is a pretty good, I think, description of the father’s legal ability in the book. And we all know lawyers like him who are essentially amoral, who can take any position, argue it effectively, and persuade juries. And that’s what his father did on the plaintiff’s side. And he became very successful, very wealthy, advertises on TV, does all that. And that was his father. Now, his father was also an ex-Army intelligence officer who had spent time in Iraq during the first Iraq war. And so he has some on the ground experience of life that is extralegal. And so he kind of brings that back to his family as well.

Debbi (13:51): That’s quite a situation. How would you describe your writing to somebody who’s never read your books? Is it like hardboiled mystery or psychological thriller?

Jim (14:02): Well, okay, it’s an interesting question because I am not a hundred percent sure how I would describe it, because while there is a mystery afoot, there is a question here of what exactly happened to Jack’s mother? And if it wasn’t a suicide, what was it and how did it happen? All of that is there. But for me, really, the story is about Jack and his search for himself, which he embarks upon in the context of trying to figure out what the hell happened to his mother. And that’s the path he goes down and he faces danger. He faces up to danger and experiences several important things along the way that sort of cause him to realize what he’s all about, what his actual capabilities are.

Debbi (15:06): Yeah.

Jim (15:07): Because he grew up as a rich kid. His father was hard on him, and his mother was too, but he and his brother grew up in a privileged environment, and it took some things, including his brother’s death to slap him in the face and realize that life isn’t easy and there’s a lot of horror out there. And he came to grips with that, and then through the course of this book, he finds his way.

Debbi (15:46): Excellent. Good. What kind of writing schedule do you keep?

Jim (15:54): When I’m writing, I am one of those people, and I got this from Ernest Hemingway, who was sort of my idol as a writer, but he was the type that would write for three or four hours max. And that’s me. And I have come to conclude that if I write for longer than that, I’m no longer effective. I’m not as crisp. My thing in sort of a Hemingway, an homage to Hemingway, I like to think of myself as a straightforward, clear writer. And so I start to lose that if I stay too long. So that’s what I do. And so normally I do it in the early afternoon. In the morning, I do various things. Whatever I have to do for the law firm I do. And then I’ll start writing in the early afternoon, and then when I’m done, I’ll go to the gym, workout, come home, relax, and then do it again the next day.

Debbi (17:06): Sounds like a nice balanced approach. I like that.

Jim (17:10): It works. It works for me.

Debbi (17:11): Exactly, exactly. Got to do what works for you. Given the fact that there’s so much of kind of your background in the book, so to speak, in terms of place, being a lawyer, how much research, if any, do you do?

Jim (17:31): Well.

Debbi (17:33): There’s got to be something.

Jim (17:34): Yeah, the legal stuff that comes right out of my head. The Key West stuff. I know all of that too, but there’s some Miami stuff there that I had to, I lived in Miami for 10 years early in my career also, so I’m very familiar with the city. But there are a few things there I had to research, including actually getting on the ground and looking at addresses and layouts of parking lots and stuff like that. So I did all that. And the other significant thing that I researched was Jack’s father’s, the Duke, his military background and what he did in the Army. That required, I didn’t know anything about that, and I just made that up. And so then I had to go back and figure out what all that meant and then create the background story.

Debbi (18:32): I hear that. I hear that. Believe me. What do TV and movies get consistently and annoyingly wrong about lawyers that you see that make you want to throw something at the TV?

Jim (18:51): Well, the thing that drives me crazy, and I mean crazy, and my wife will acknowledge this is when they, a case will come in the door at the law firm and they’re in trial like two weeks later. That time lapse drives me crazy. And then once they are in the trial, the inability of the writers to understand the rules of evidence and how this actually works in a trial also makes me crazy. And the things that lawyers in the TV show, the questions they’re able to ask without objection, that’s all completely.

Debbi (19:37): And the speeches, they just stand there and make a speech.

Jim (19:40): And the long speeches, yeah, the lawyer will just turn around in the courtroom and start addressing the jury without a question. Those sorts of things are just ridiculous.

Debbi (19:53): I know, right?

Jim (19:54): So yeah. So there’s all of that. As long as it works for them, good for them, good for the ratings.

Debbi (20:02): Somebody out there likes this stuff. I don’t know. They aren’t lawyers, I’ll tell you that.

Jim (20:08): Well, some of those shows I actually left. I’ll tell you a show that actually got the legal thing right was LA Law. Do you remember that show?

Debbi (20:18): Yes. Yes. I do remember that.

Jim (20:19): I mean, it wasn’t so much the courtroom stuff. It was the law firm stuff that was really well done. The politics of being in a law firm were really well done in that show.

Debbi (20:29): I know. I found out the hard way.

Jim (20:33): Well, there you go.

Debbi (20:36): Oh boy, that’s funny. I’m going to have to remember that for later when we do our bonus episode. It’s a short thing I do for Patreon supporters. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in a writing career?

Jim (20:55): Commitment? You have to be committed to it. I wasn’t, as I said, when I was in college and I had a professor, a creative writing professor, who thought I had ability, but recognized right away that I wasn’t serious then and I wasn’t, because as I said, I had my eye on making some money. And that professor saw right through me at the time, and I remember it like it was yesterday. It was a guy named Harry Cruz, who was a very good author himself. He had a number of really interesting southern gothic novels. But he was a significant influence on me because I realized you can’t do this unless you’re committed. And it took a long time. It took me 40 years to gain the commitment to actually sit down and write this book. And so I respect writers who come right out of college knowing exactly what they want to do, work as waiters or whatever else, and write. I have great respect for that. I just couldn’t do it. It wasn’t me at the time. But I think finding that commitment is the key, really. And also another thing is finding your own voice. A lot of people try to emulate somebody else, and that doesn’t work either. And I find when I’m reading something that someone has written, I can tell if it’s authentic or not, if this is real to the writer. And so I think that’s another thing is finding your own voice and expressing that.

Debbi (22:43): Yes, absolutely. That’s great advice. Is there anything you’d like to add before we finish up?

Jim (22:52): Not really. I do appreciate the opportunity to speak with you today, Debbi. It was a pleasure. It was a pleasure.

Debbi (22:59): Well, the pleasure was mutual because this has been great fun. Thank you for being on with us today.

Jim (23:06): Sure thing.

Debbi (23:06): Spending time and giving advice. As we know, time and advice are a lawyer’s stock in trade.

Jim (23:15): You’re so right.

Debbi (23:17): So I am very happy that you were able to be here today. This is also why AI will never replace lawyers, I hope.

Jim (23:28): Well, I’ll tell you, I happen to know just from my own, what’s going on in my own law firm, AI, it can do research. That’s a real problem, and it can write briefs.

Debbi (23:42): But you’d have to double check everything to make sure it wasn’t hallucinating.

Jim (23:45): You do. That’s all true. That’s all true. Everything you said is true. That’s going to work itself out. But it’s here. It is here. And it’s going to become harder for law firms to hire young associates and train them on legal research and writing because they don’t need that anymore. Or they won’t in the near future because AI will do it for them. And so there’s going to be a weird period of, I’d say the next 10 years, you’re going to see all this stuff shake out, and it’s going to create a real revolution, I think, in the legal profession. I really do believe that.

Debbi (24:22): Hopefully it’s a revolution for good.

Jim (24:25): Yeah. I don’t necessarily advocate somebody starting college like tomorrow thinking they’re going to go to law school and then starting a legal career. I think the legal career that person would start seven years from now is going to look a lot different than it does today. Now, the people that you can’t get rid of are the trial lawyers. AI can’t go into court and try a case and it can’t argue emotion. It can’t do any of that. So there’s always going to be a role. But all of that background stuff, that’s trouble. That’s where the trouble is.

Debbi (25:03): Very interesting. I’ve been kind of watching from the sidelines, so to speak, the legal profession grapple with this whole technology business in general. I noticed they’re kind of catching up with what tweets were long after I knew all about Twitter. And how tweets could be used to market their services. Where have you guys been? Oh, I forgot. It’s the legal profession. It moves very, very slowly.

Jim (25:37): It’s methodical. Yeah.

Debbi (25:38): But it is methodical. Yeah. That goes along with the way lawyers think, which is methodically. Anyway, I just want to thank you again, James. Jim. Jim.

Jim (25:55): Yeah. Thank you, Debbi.

Debbi (25:56): For sure. For sure. I want to thank all my listeners and my Patreon supporters. I couldn’t do this without you guys. If you haven’t done so, please check out my Patreon page. The link is in the show notes. Until next time, when my guest will be Phillip Strang. Take care and happy reading. I shall be seeing you.

Be sure to check out our Patreon page, for ad-free episodes, bonus episodes, excerpts from my work, as well as updates on my latest project, my short film “Absolution”, which is currently in post-production (which, BTW, has become my latest ~~unpaid~~ side gig). 🙂

View Details

My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with award-winning crime writer Victoria Selman.

And, yes, we do have a brief discussion of Doctor Who! 🙂 And Guy Fawkes!

You can download a copy of the transcript here.

Debbi (00:12): Hi everyone. My guest today is the Sunday Times and Amazon number one bestselling author of five thrillers, including her popular Ziba MacKenzie series. Her novel Truly Darkly Deeply was shortlisted for the Fingerprint Thriller of the Year Award and longlisted for the Theakston’s Crime Novel of the Year Award, and was a Richard and Judy Book Club Pick. It has also been optioned by See Saw Films. In addition, she’s been shortlisted for two CWA Dagger Awards, has written for the Independent, and hosts a popular podcast called On the Sofa with Victoria on Crime Time FM. It’s my great pleasure to have with me today, Victoria Sellman.

(01:50): Hi Victoria. How are you doing?

Victoria (01:51): I’m good. It’s my great pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

Debbi (01:55): I am very pleased to have you on. I was going to say you’re in London and what’s the vibe like in London these days?

Victoria (02:06): Well, the vibe in London today is very noisy. I dunno if you can hear the children outside my window, but it’s Halloween, so we may be interrupted by some doorbell ringing and some dog barking as the kids come.

Debbi (02:18): Oh, that’s right. It’s tonight where you are.

Victoria (02:18): We’re busy on the streets tonight.

Debbi (02:22): Good heavens. Oh my goodness. Perhaps goblins will come visit us. I don’t know. In any case, have you always wanted to write thrillers?

Victoria (02:33): I’ve always wanted to write, so when I was from a very young age, I’m sure the same with you, I was always an avid reader growing up, and I think when you love to read, at some point you’re going to want to write as well. You want to have a go, and it was a dream. From the age of seven, I wrote my first inverted commas novel on two sides of A4 paper. It was a very great achievement, which my parents went and lost. Otherwise, I’m sure it would’ve been a fabulous bestseller, but it was fun. That was on my bedroom floor one summer I wrote that.

No, I’ve always wanted to write, but as is so often, I think as a writer, it was a long time coming, so life got in the way. I left university, I got a job, I got married, I had children. And it wasn’t until I was in my gosh, I’m trying to think, my late thirties, I guess, that I started properly going for it and I haven’t looked back. I’ve loved every minute, even the downs as well as the ups because of course publishing is a journey of peaks and troughs, and I think the biggest takeout is you just have to keep riding those waves and believing in yourself and keeping going. But it’s a rollercoaster and it’s a fun ride and I’ve loved it.

Debbi (03:54): It truly is. Yeah, it is a great deal of fun when you can get things to work out and get the story to make sense finally.

Victoria (04:03): Well, that’s right. I think that’s part of it. It’s not just that we want to tell a story, but as a writer, the challenge of telling the story of getting it right, of getting the character’s voice spot on and getting the character in with that first thing that they’re going to say on the page, you just have to see who they are, how to create suspense. I love sleight of hands, so my novels, I love to keep people guessing and hopefully guessing wrong if I’m doing my job right, but also to play fair. So I dunno about you, but I think there is nothing worse than reading a novel and it’s all about the big twist at the end and you get to the twist and you’re like, okay, so I didn’t see that coming. But also it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. I think the twist should absolutely, when you get to it, it should be “Oh!” not “uhh?”, but when it’s done well, everything just falls into place and you feel satisfied. And one’s job, I think as a writer is certainly a writer of thrillers, is to do that.

Debbi (05:02): Oh yes.

Victoria (05:03): And that’s a challenge, and it takes a while, obviously, to get the books right. But as we say, that’s part of the fun. The puzzle isn’t just the puzzle we give to the reader, but the puzzle we give to ourselves about how do we tell the story in the best possible way.

Debbi (05:16): I agree. Yeah, definitely. It’s really funny when you’re writing these things, you almost become like the protagonist in the sense of what do I do next?

Victoria (05:28): Yeah, well, it’s got to feel real and you can’t just have the plot leading the character, the character, it has to make sense for the character to do whatever they’re doing. Again, there’s nothing worse than a character walking into a haunted house that they would obviously never think of going in. It just doesn’t make it. But no, they’ve got to do it. That’s where the author wants ’em to go, so they find the dead body and the skeletons hanging from the ceiling.

Debbi (05:51): Of course. Yeah.

Victoria (05:53): Sorry, I’ve got haunted houses on my brain. Like I said, it’s Halloween tonight.

Debbi (05:56): I can’t imagine why, given the time of year. So, tell us about Ziba MacKenzie and what made you decide to start writing a series?

Victoria (06:07): So Ziba MacKenzie, that was my very first protagonist and I was feeling my way into crime fiction. And back then I was enjoying novels, Patterson and Lee Child and all those really fun, big characters and big stories. And I was also watching a show, which I dunno if you like, I’m sure many of your viewers like, cause it was huge, was of course Criminal Minds.

So Ziba was an ex-special forces criminal profiler, and this was at a time when nobody was, I think now lots of people are writing about profilers, but back then they really weren’t. And I wanted to write somebody a little bit different, but I wanted to tap into my fascination with psychology and what makes us do the things we do and have a character that could understand us perhaps better than we understand ourselves and really solve a mystery through her understanding of humanity, but also facing demons of her own.

So Ziba, she’s super smart and she’s kick ass obviously, but she’s also, she’s lost her husband, she’s a widow, she’s lost her husband in tragic circumstances. And just to complicate things a little bit further, she’s also falling in love with his best friend.

(07:18): We have a tortured protagonist who we admire, but perhaps also on some level relate to. And we have mysteries that are rooted in true crimes. So that’s one of my things I really enjoy is true crime. I read history at university, so the idea of tapping into something a little bit real, I really enjoy doing. And that’s actually been something for all of my novels that I’ve done in one way or another so far. It’s not a retelling, it’s just a launchpad. The series was very successful, so Blood for Blood, which was the first book in the series was shortlisted for the Debut Dagger Award. So over here in England, the Daggers, I think they’re probably a bit equivalent to the Edgars from what I understand, if that makes sense.

Debbi (08:04): It does.

Victoria (08:05): And being shortlisted for that was a brilliant springboard for me. I got a deal from that and the book did great. It was actually number one bestseller on Amazon for about, I think it was about five weeks. So it as a first book that was

Debbi (08:21): That’s fantastic.

Victoria (08:22): It was great. But of course it also sets your expectations at a little bit high as well.

Debbi (08:26): Oh, I know the feeling.

Victoria (08:26): [Cross-talk] downside. And then I went on to write two more books. So it’s a fairly self-contained trilogy.

(08:35): And after the third novel, I wanted to do something new because writing a series is great fun. You get to know your character so well and you get to have a lot of fun with them. But after a certain point, it’s like wearing a comfortable pair of slippers when as a writer you always want to be wearing your dancing shoes, you want to be going out and trying new things and pushing yourself to grow. Otherwise how did we ever do that? Exactly. And so then I moved on to a standalone, which was my next journey.

Debbi (09:06): Cool. So let’s see. What are you working on now then? Specifically.

Victoria (09:13): What am I working on? So what I did after the Ziba MacKenzie series, so I wrote two standalones. The last one was Truly Darkly Deeply, which you mentioned in your introduction. And that was, I mentioned to you that I really loved true crime. So this one was not based on, but inspired by the relationship Ted Bundy had with his girlfriend’s daughter, which I was fascinated by, I dunno about you, but I watched the movie with Zach Efron that has that crazy long title, I’ll not remember properly, something like crazy, awful, terrible, vile, whatever it was. Remember what I mean? And I watched this movie.

(09:46): And it was a brilliant movie, but fascinating. It was all about the girlfriend and a lot of these stories that we see are about the serial killer’s wife, the serial killer’s girlfriend. It’s that aspect. And there was one scene in the movie where this little girl, the daughter was sitting up at the counter and I thought, that’s what was interesting me.

What was it like for her? How would it have been to had somebody you effectively think of as a father because this girl did, and he turns out to be a serial killer? How does it affect you? How does it inform your view of humanity? And because this is fiction in my novel, the story opens with the serial killer who I’ve named Matty, is in prison, so we know he’s been arrested, but he’s always protested his innocence. And so this girl in my story doesn’t really know if he’s guilty or not. You thinks he probably is, but there’s a but. And it opens with her receiving a letter from him from prison saying he’s dying and he wants to meet. Will she finally get the answer she craves? And if she does, will the truth set her free or will it bury her deeper?

(11:02): So the fun twist for me, I guess with this story was what if your father was a serial killer, but what if you couldn’t be quite sure whether or not he was guilty? So that was where I went with that, and that was a lot of fun. And then following that, I wrote another, it’s not similar exactly, but I suppose you could say it’s a similar vein, which was All the Little Liars, which came out in paper last year. And that was also inspired by a true crime case in this case, the Skylar Neese case. I dunno if you’re familiar with this, but this is an extraordinary story where two teenage girls and their best friend go out and only so three of them go out, and only two of them come back. And these two girls in real life, they are arrested in the end for her murder and they confess to her murder. But what’s fascinating to me is when they were questioned about their motive, all they could say, the only reason they could give about why they’d killed her was we didn’t like her, which is a nonsense. You don’t kill somebody because you don’t like them.

(12:11): I always say, my mother-in-law is alive and kicking, clearly this is not a reason for murdering somebody. So what was really the reason? Why would these girls really have done it? And this was a story I grappled with for a long time. How do you tell it? And so it’s a re-imagining. It’s not Skylar Neese, it’s not those particular girls. But again, that was the launchpad.

So the two standalones are using true crime as a launchpad to explore things that I am curious about. You asked about the thing I’m working on now. My agent is reading it at the moment. We’re working on it and it’s a little bit of a departure for me, so it’s different. As I said, I always want to challenge myself as a writer. I don’t want to be doing the same old thing all the time. I would get bored and I think my readers would get bored probably as well. So this story, I think my best way of telling it is imagine it’s the British To Kill a Mockingbird.

Debbi (13:08): Interesting.

Victoria (13:08): It’s a coming-of-age story. It’s a forbidden romance and it’s a mystery and it opens with the discovery by two children of their vicar, pastor on the moors in Yorkshire and story begins to unravel from that obviously. How did you get there? It’s a mystery. But the real story is how the discovery impacts their life and the life of all the people in the village. And it’s a story about outsiderhood and how we deal with things with which we are not familiar. And it flies to the heart of who and how we love, but also who and how we hate. So a little bit different than what I’ve done before.

Debbi (13:53): Well, it’s very interesting. It sounds like you often write basically psychological thrillers in a sense. A lot of those very psychologically oriented.

Victoria (14:03): Yeah, I’m really interested in human motivation, interaction, character, yes. So yes, psychology is something I’m fascinated by.

Debbi (14:12): Great stuff. Let’s see. What kind of writing schedule do you keep?

Victoria (14:21): Well, I love to write and I always say it’s not a matter of how do I make myself sit down at my desk, but how do I make myself get from my desk? You are nodding. So it sounds like that’s the same thing. The writing was a holiday and I never felt that more keenly than during lockdown. You guys went through lockdown as well, right? You had that too. So we were stuck. I mean, we were allowed outside for an hour a day to exercise and that was it.

So I was at home with my family, so I was homeschooling. So actually the point where I was able to sit down at my desk and write was like going on holiday, it was opening a window onto another world. And the freedom of course that comes with that. So you asked about me schedule, I would say I write whenever I can.

I write every day. I have children, I take them to school, I walk the dog and I write and I get up from my desk and my back starts to hurt. And maybe I walk the dog again, but I’m writing until it’s school pickup time and it’s every day. And I love it. It’s a treat and it’s a privilege as well, I think to be able to call this work when actually it’s the greatest pleasure there is.

Debbi (15:36): I think it is. It’s wonderful. It’s therapeutic. It’s everything. It’s kind of like being able to express things you can’t express simply by talking to people.

Victoria (15:49): For sure. It’s wonderful. It’s a way of inhabiting other people and what an extraordinary thing to be able to do. And you can try out ideas and figure things out.

Debbi (16:02): And it sounds like your career path was very much like mine. You were doing something else in, you were your late thirties when you started writing? Seriously? Same here, late thirties. Yeah, I was practicing law of all things.

Victoria (16:14): Oh, you were reading, okay.

Debbi (16:17): Yeah.

Victoria (16:17): But you know what? I think that other life that we had, I think it’s probably makes, I hope it makes us better writers because I think if, I always used to be very jealous of the people who would go straight from university and they would become writers. That’s the dream. But actually, what are they writing about exactly? Every story we tell has a piece of us in it. And if you haven’t lived, how do you write?

Debbi (16:47): Yeah, exactly. How do you really write about, say, a 60-year-old man if you’ve lived only 20 years?

Victoria (16:58): Right. I mean, we have to. And I’m not saying to write about a serial killer’s daughter, I have to have had a serial killer father. Of course not. But you have to know what it means to love and to care about other people. And there are different, they talk about write what you know. And I always think that’s a bit of a strange thing to say because Ziba MacKenzie, for example, Blood for Blood. I’m not ex-special forces. I’m not a criminal profiler. And yet clearly there are aspects of her or her experience that I’m able to tap into because if I couldn’t, she wouldn’t be relatable. She wouldn’t feel real.

Debbi (17:35): Precisely. Yeah, you just have to be an observer I think of people and endlessly kind of curious about them too, I think helps.

Victoria (17:44): Yes, curiosity. I absolutely agree. I think that’s exactly what it’s about.

Debbi (17:48): Yeah, precisely. Let’s see. What authors do you find most inspire you as a writer?

Victoria (17:59): I think different authors at different times in my career. So when I first started out, I mentioned Patterson and what I learned from him was short chapters, the hastiness. You cannot put a Patterson novel down. And I find that extra, I mean, a lot of people are sniffy about him, but I think he’s extraordinary because his plots are riveting and he just keeps you turning the pages. You literally are finished, they can be thick books, but you’ll finish them fast.

And I was also, at the time, I’m still a huge admirer of Thomas Harris, but I was really enjoying Thomas Harris then as well. And he’s the same, I mean character. He’s just extraordinary at getting a character in. But I also love the classics. So To Kill A Mockingbird is an all-time favorite of mine. I adore it and I’ve read it very many times. And there’s always more you can take out of it. And I think that’s a sign of a really special book that it stands up to multiple readings and also that you can enjoy it at different times in your life. So I’ve read books to my children that I’ve loved growing up, and I come back to them and I read them laterally, and I don’t enjoy them so much. So that’s not the books necessarily bad, but I’m just saying a book that can keep you at every stage exactly. Is very special and very rare and to be cherished.

Debbi (19:20): That’s very funny because I used to do that with Catcher in the Rye.

Victoria (19:25): Oh, I love that one.

Debbi (19:26): Every 10 years or so I would read it and I would love it each time. And then the most recent time I read it, I liked it, but I started to get bored with Holden. He kept saying the same things over and over. I was like, this kid’s kind of boring, really.

Victoria (19:45): Yeah. Well, but I think it’s all about relatability, isn’t it? It’s like they’ve got to relate at different times.

Debbi (19:50): Exactly. When I was fourteen, I loved him.

Victoria (19:52): I mean, I wonder if I went back. Yeah. But I wonder if, I mean, growing up I adored, for example, Wuthering Heights. Again, talking about classics. I wonder how much I would love it now. Was it appealing to something to me as a young person? Was there something in it? Or Thomas Hardy, another classic I loved. Would I enjoy that in the same way? I don’t know.

Debbi (20:13): Hard to say,

Victoria (20:14): But I love a puzzle. But then there are other books talking about crime. I mean, Sherlock Holmes, of course, is a favorite.

Debbi (20:19): Oh yeah,

Victoria (20:20): Of course.

Debbi (20:21): That never grows old somehow.

Victoria (20:22): It never grows old. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I think there are some very special books out there.

Debbi (20:29): Yeah, definitely. Let’s see. What advice would you give to anyone who is interested in a writing career?

Victoria (20:37): Read. Read and read and read and read. Because you cannot write in a vacuum. And the more you read, the more you understand how storytelling works. I personally, I mean we’ve all read a few, I mean, On Writing by Stephen King is actually an example of an excellent how-to guide. But I think, I don’t know, most of them feel very abstract, dry. I don’t know. I don’t take much from them. But reading, just reading a brilliantly told story and asking yourself, why is this working? Read like a writer and write like a reader, I think is what I would say.

Debbi (21:12): Exactly. Yes. And keep at it. Don’t give up.

Victoria (21:14): Keep at it and know that there are peaks and troughs. I mean, nobody mean, of course there are some, right? I mean, we talked about Patterson and Lee Child. I can’t imagine they’ve had many troughs, but most of us have our ups and downs, and that’s to be expected. What you have to do is just keep your sailing and keep believing in yourself. But also there’s a, I’m going to misquote it, but there’s an Einstein quote, isn’t there about madness is about doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

So believing in yourself doesn’t mean just keep plugging away and doing the same thing. Believing in yourself means I’ve got what it takes to get it right. I just have to figure out how. And you keep working and you keep chiseling. And if one thing doesn’t work, learn from it. I always think what doesn’t work is as important as what does work. If it works first time, but you’re not sure why, how do you replicate that?

Debbi (22:12): Exactly.

Victoria (22:13): So failure can be a form of success, I think.

Debbi (22:17): Absolutely. You learn from failures.

Victoria (22:20): Yeah, for sure.

Debbi (22:21): What not to do.

Victoria (22:23): Yeah. In fact, it’s funny, I used to work at, we talked about previous jobs. I used to work at Unilever, which I dunno if it’s big over there. It’s a bit like Procter and Gamble over here.

Debbi (22:32): I’ve heard of it. Yeah.

Victoria (22:34): So I remember talking to one of the HR people and she was talking to me about interviews when she interviews people for roles. And she said, it’s always a really big red flag for her. She never takes on, she always asks the question, what’s your biggest failure? And the people that say, I’ve never really failed, she never hires them because if you haven’t failed, you haven’t learned.

Debbi (22:57): That’s it. Absolutely. You weren’t willing to take enough of a chance on something to risk failure. You’ve got to.

Victoria (23:06): You risk taking a chance even in the stories we tell. So that goes to my point about the Ziba MacKenzie series. I could have carried on writing Blood for Blood and all those other books. Would it be nice and easy? I mean, jolly easy. I knew who the characters were. I knew I had not a formula. I got, I can’t stand formulas, but I had a certain way of doing them. I could have churned those out. But where’s the challenge in that? Where’s the growth?

Debbi (23:33): Exactly. That’s where I differ from so many people who feel like they can just bang out five books in a year or something. It’s like hold the phone.

Victoria (23:42): If you’re banging out five books in a year, you’re not digging deep enough. Do you think you’ve got to struggle? You’ve got to really wrestle with that tiger to get the right book.

Debbi (23:52): I agree. I totally agree. I mean, there is work involved in this, but it’s the kind of work that gives you in the end, pleasure, because you’re producing something.

Victoria (24:02): Satisfaction, right?

Debbi (24:02): Yeah. It’s the satisfaction of telling a good story, a story well told.

Victoria (24:06): Absolutely. Absolutely agree.

Debbi (24:09): I notice that you tend to be inspired by true life events, especially true crime.

Victoria (24:16): Yes.

Debbi (24:17): I know. I often see things in the paper that will spark an idea for a story. What is it do you think that draws people towards the subject of true crime? Because it does seem to have taken off in a huge way.

Victoria (24:34): Huge, right? I mean, Netflix is constant. I think what’s so interesting for a lot of people about true crime is this idea that we could all be affected by it. So many of these stories, but for the grace of God, we could have been there. And the other thing that I find really interesting about true crime is this idea of if I were in that situation, how do I know I wouldn’t behave in that way as well. What really drives us? What is the line between us holding ourselves back and us stepping forward and doing the wrong thing?

(25:12): And often that line gets blurred. But I think as well, what I personally is what I said to you, I find really interesting from a storytelling point of view is the grain of truth. There’s a certain, I’m trying to think of the right word. It’s not relatability, but just knowing something happened, it really happened. I’m not completely making this up. There’s a different level of investment, I think, and your mind goes to a slightly different place. And that’s really interesting too.

Debbi (25:47):Yeah. There’s also another aspect. It’s interesting. We happened to catch part of the Charlie Sheen special on Netflix. What a train wreck. I mean.

Victoria (26:00): I haven’t seen that.

Debbi (26:01): It’s been a long time since I’ve even thought about some of the stuff they were talking about. And it’s like, oh my God, I had to turn it off eventually because it was just so, so bad. It was just so bad.

Victoria (26:14): Actually, that’s a very interesting point because I think there’s a fine line with true crime and storytelling. So I think when it crosses into the gratuitous and when it doesn’t take into account the victims and sensationalizes, and particularly when it sensationalizes killers, which we’ve seen a lot, I find that offensive and pornographic, I’m not sure if it’s the right word, but that’s what it feels like to me. I find it disgusting.

I think if you’re going to take true crime as a launchpad or even very really going into it, you have to deal with a certain sensitivity regardless of whether victims are still alive or not. But it’s not about reveling in grotesqueness. I really do dislike that intensely. And there are a number of novels I can think of that really do do that. And think, you mentioned Netflix says, I’m going to get the guy’s name wrong now, but maybe the one, I mean, there’s a terrible serial killer who it’s on now. What was his name? I can’t remember. But apparently I was going to watch it and I read a review and it was talking about how they took it to such a gory level. It felt just like reveling in the grossness of it. I thought, I’m not interested in seeing that. I don’t want to, that’s not what’s really, really, and I do dislike that and I do think it’s offensive. So I think there is a line you’ve got to be very careful about.

Debbi (27:48): Yeah, yeah. You could easily desensitize people to this stuff if you show too much of it.

Victoria (27:55): Yes.

Debbi (27:55): Seems to me.

Victoria (27:56): For sure you can. Of course.

Debbi (27:58): Yeah. Yeah. I think it pays to have some guardrails of some sort, unofficial ones. We don’t need censorship or anything, but we need to decide for ourselves as writers, where are we going to draw the line on how bad?

Victoria (28:16): But also I guess that comes from why are we doing it? What are we trying to get out of it?

(28:21): For me, with Truly Darkly Deeply and All the Little Liars, I was exploring motivation or impact of a crime on, I mean, often what I’m really interested in is the ripple effects of a crime on the people left behind. So Truly Darkly Deeply, and All the Little Liars really lean into that. That’s about the victims. It’s not the killer’s story. And in fact, in Truly Darkly Deeply, you never see the killings there. It’s, it’s all off-camera, but it’s also only referred to slightly obliquely, because that’s not what my interest is. I’m not interested in what’s the most disgusting way you can kill somebody.

Debbi (29:01): Exactly.

Victoria (29:01): But some people are, but I’m really not. I’m interested in the people, the humanity.

Debbi (29:09): Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Me too. Totally. What do you do when you’re not writing?

Victoria (29:19): Well, I eat a lot of chocolate. I’ve got my dog. So we walk around a lot. I have my children, they keep me on my toes, so I’m cooking a lot for them. I love to walk. I love the outside. I love nature. I mean, we are in fall at the moment, autumn, we call it over here. And it’s just glorious. We have the trees that are ablaze with color and as you walk, and the crunch underfoot. And I love that. I love being out in the world. I also, I love to meet my friends. I love nothing more than go out to breakfast. That’s my very favorite thing.

Debbi (29:55): Oh, I love that.

Victoria (29:57): I love it. I love to have a good old gossip. I love being with people as well. And I also love, I’m a homebody too, so I also love to just snuggle up. I mean, it’s winter here, winter, we’re coming into winter, but the night’s drawing in. It’s dark by about five o’clock here. And I used to hate that actually, Debbi, I used to really dread autumn and winter rolling in because I love the summer. And I’ve learned recently, actually, you know what? Embrace it because it goes on for a long time. And if you spend that whole time just feeling miserable about it, that’s a rather shame. So now I light candles and I make stews.

Debbi (30:35): Exactly.

Victoria (30:36): I cozy out with my husband and watch movies or whatever else it is. And actually that’s rather nice too.

Debbi (30:41): It is rather nice. Yeah. There’s a kind of a comfort in being indoors in your little warm house or whatever.

Victoria (30:48): In our cocoons.

Debbi (30:50): But going outside, if you want to take a brisk walk in the autumn, that’s cool too.

Victoria (30:55): It’s gorgeous. Yeah. We’re very lucky.

Debbi (30:57): I do love nature, I have to say. We should hang together. If you ever come over here, make sure.

Victoria (31:04): Yes. Come to London!

Debbi (31:05): I have to go back to London. I need to revisit London.

Victoria (31:09): Yeah, for sure.

Debbi (31:11): We can look for a Tardis together, because last time I was there, I couldn’t find a Tardis anywhere. I was like, where’s the Tardises?

Victoria (31:20): What you don’t know is Debbi that we were going to record yesterday, and I messed all that up with the times, but you were wearing your Doctor Who T-shirt especially, and I messed that up, so I’m so sorry.

Debbi (31:29): It’s okay. I should have probably just put it on again today. I have two Doctor Who T-shirts.

Victoria (31:34): Oh, do you? A bit of a fan.

Debbi (31:35): Isn’t that amazing? Yeah. Are you a Doctor Who fan? I have to ask.

Victoria (31:43): Actually not. You know what, I’ve never watched Doctor Who.

Debbi (31:45): Really? Oh my gosh, that’s so funny because it’s so quintessentially British. I keep hearing about how quintessentially British it is, and all this stuff.

Victoria (31:54): Yeah, maybe that’s why I’m not so into it.

Debbi (31:57): And then I run into somebody who’s in England who’s just like, no, I’m not into it.

Victoria (32:03): Well, a lot of people love it. So you’re not alone. For sure.

Debbi (32:05): It’s fun. It’s a fun show. I always liked Tom Baker especially.

Victoria (32:10): Right.

Debbi (32:11): Huge fan of Tom Baker. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Victoria (32:18): No, I can’t think of anything obvious apart from to wish you and all your listeners and viewers are happy Halloween, although it’ll come out obviously after that. I hope you have fun. And if you read the books, I’d love to hear what you think of them. I’m on all the social media channels, so let me know.

Debbi (32:37): This is funny because based on my schedule, the way I normally do things, this video will come out on Guy Fawkes Day.

Victoria (32:46): Okay. So Happy Bonfire and Fireworks Day everybody. Happy Guy Fawkes. Absolutely. Do you guys celebrate Guy Fawkes over there?

Debbi (32:54): We don’t actually celebrate it. I remember it because there’s a guy in England who has a blog who I’m constantly visiting and doing his quiz. He was a quizmaster in a previous life. He was a quizmaster. So now he does quizzes on his blog, and we sort of connected over James Bond and Doctor Who.

Victoria (33:18): Well, James Bond. There you go. That’s quintessentially British as well. For sure.

Debbi (33:21): Yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely. Well, I just want to thank you so much for being here. Thanks for everything you said is just so perfectly said.

Victoria (33:34): Oh, well that’s very kind. Well, thank you for having me. It’s been so lovely chatting to you.

Debbi (33:38): Well, same here. I had a really good time. Thank you. And so hopefully you’ll get over to our side of the pond sometime and we can get together at Bouchercon or someplace.

Victoria (33:50): I would love that. Actually. I’ve never been to Bouchercon, but I would actually love to go.

Debbi (33:54): They’re fun, they’re fun conferences. They’re big, a lot going on. So on that note, I just want to say thank you again, Victoria, for being here. And thanks to all my listeners with a special thanks to my Patreon supporters. Thank you so much for your support. It’s definitely appreciated. Please, if you’re listening to the podcast or watching “like” us or leave a review, give us a review if you enjoyed the episode, and as I said, this will be out on November 5th, remember the 5th of November.

Victoria (34:35): Yes. There you go.

Debbi (34:38): If I knew the poem, I would recite it. Anyway, by the time this drops, I’ll probably have a couple of chapters from The Maltese Falcon posted on the Patreon page for you to enjoy. So I hope you enjoy that. And this seems like a perfect time to talk about the perks of Patreon, which include bonus episodes, ad-free episodes, and more. So on our next episode, I will have a guest named James Pokinghorn. He will be our next guest. And until then, I will just say, take care and happy reading. Be seeing you.

Don’t forget to check us out on Patreon! Where I’ve shared a few photos of my Doctor Who shirts and maybe a Tardis with patrons. 🙂

View Details

My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with former investigator and crime writer Patrick H. Moore.

Check out our discussion of Patrick’s work in sentencing mitigation work. It’s a ~~lesser-known~~ unique type of investigative work.

You can download a copy of the transcript here.

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today is a retired Los Angeles based investigator and sentencing mitigation specialist. Since 2003, he worked on more than 500 drug trafficking, sex crime, violent crime, and white collar fraud cases. My, what a mix. He also studied English literature and creative writing at San Francisco State University. As a student, he published several short stories and novel excerpts. In 2014, he published his first thriller novel Cicero’s Dead. Today he has a three-book series, the first of which is a political thriller called 27 Days, which was along with Cicero’s Dead, a finalist in various awards contests. As I said, it is the first of the three books in the Nick Crane thriller series. My guest was also co-founder of a blog called All Things Crime that apparently reached its zenith of popularity somewhere in the mid-2010s, which was what, 20 or 30 years ago? No, no, it was only last decade. It only feels like 50 years. Alrighty. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest, Patrick H. Moore. Hi. So how are you doing?

Patrick (02:26): Oh, I’m doing great, Debbi. Hi. Thank you very much for having me on.

Debbi (02:30): It’s my pleasure. Believe me. And I was very intrigued to see that you used to be an investigator. Was that like a private investigator?

Patrick (02:39): Well, I worked for a private investigator. The person I worked for, he held the private investigator’s license, so I did investigations for him and also I did what’s called sentencing mitigation work. We worked for lawyers primarily in the greater Los Angeles area, but also all around the country. And we would do a lot of their legwork. We would do a lot of their interviewing, and so we do their legwork, their interviewing, and also we would do a lot of the ghostwriting for the lawyers. So my specialty was actually writing federal sentencing memorandums, which are highly precise documents written in a very formal style that follow certain ground rules.

(03:36): And so I wrote hundreds of these federal sentencing memorandums, and I also edited hundreds for my boss, but I also did investigations. But in doing sentencing mitigation work, it really is, it is like an investigation of a slightly different sort, that is you’re not going out and knocking on doors or searching for things on the internet in one of the databases, but rather you’re actually talking to your clients or our clients, my boss’s company, John Brown and Associates. And so I would interview the clients at great length. I would interview their family members. I would collect character reference letters. So I was basically investigating the client his past, what he had or had not done, whether or not he had come from a disadvantaged background, all of those things. And so it was a kind of investigative work, but a kind of investigative work that very few people know about because the vast majority of the population has no idea that there are sentencing mitigation specialists in existence. And there actually are very few. I think Los Angeles really created this phenomenon, and I don’t think it’s really caught on in other parts of the country, which is why lawyers from other parts of the country would use my boss’s firm too.

Debbi (05:07): That’s very interesting.

Patrick (05:09): Because sharp lawyers quickly realized that to get those sentences a fair deal, they needed to have lots of ammunition, they needed to have lots of arrows in their quiver, and a full complete workup on the client they discovered was hugely helpful. We also did state cases, but those were fairly simple compared to the federal cases. My specialty was federal cases, drugs and fraud cases, and of course you’d get the sex cases too, which were unavoidable. And them too. And do your best on those too.

Debbi (05:46): You’re trying to tell a story about these people that paints a full picture, I take it.

Patrick (05:52): Exactly.

Debbi (05:54): How could a person get to the point where they’re at now? Yeah, it makes a lot of difference. Huge difference.

Patrick (06:03): One of the curious things I learned is that most people who get indicted for fraud really are the vast majority are perfectly fine people who just got greedy and made a mistake, and then oftentimes they get in and they can’t get out and it snowballs. But that was a curious thing I learned, whereas most drug traffickers, well, especially transporters, mules as they’re called, they’re like poor, hardworking people usually of Latino background desperately trying to support their families and possibly the relatives back in Mexico for low wages. So they would typically make the mistake of, hey, you just drive this from here to there and we’ll pay you such and such, and that’s how they would tend to get involved. I never represented the large traffickers, which is a whole different world.

Debbi (07:00): Different subset. What led you from being a creative writer into that particular work? I’m just curious about that.

Patrick (07:12): Right. Well, there’s a backstory there. See, I’m older. I come out of the Sixties. I was purely counterculture till I was about 30 years old, and then when I was 30, I went to college and I discovered it was that I needed it. It was extremely helpful and completely fascinating. So I had a good part-time job. I was married, I had a couple kids, and those were in the days when good part-time jobs existed in manufacturing. And so I was able to help support my little family and able to go to college and all of that and able to do it all at the same time. And it was just an immensely beneficial period in my life from age, say 30 to age 39 as I was a part-time student and I worked part-time. So it took me nine years to get my AA, my BA, and my MA, all in English Lit.

Debbi (08:20): Yeah, I know what it’s like to be a part-time student. I did that myself. I was in college for a bit longer than most, ended up going to law school. How much your background works its way into your books, do you think?

Patrick (08:36): Well, I would say a tremendous amount. Both my years in counterculture, in the counterculture when I was never living on the streets, but I was kind of a street person for a long time, and so I met a lot of interesting characters.

So then we fast forward 20 years to where I’m working for John Brown in Los Angeles here, and I’m also meeting a whole bunch of interesting characters with one significant difference. The interesting characters in Southern California tended to have access to things that people in Northern California did not. And that’s why a lot of, I am not going to say they’re innocent, but in the drug world, a lot of people got, well say the mules driving drugs across the border up from state to state.

That kind of opportunity didn’t exist in Northern California, so I never met anyone like that. So Southern California was really, so you put the two periods together, 10 years in Southern California and my first five to 10 years here in, I mean 10 years in Northern California and my first five to 10 years here in Southern California, and you put two together and I had a great deal of information, ammunition to use in my books. Which is why my crime thrillers are considered to be highly realistic by most readers.

Debbi (10:18): I was going to say you sound very much like Dashiell Hammett in the sense of you were an investigator and you kind of translated that into crime fiction.

Patrick (10:28): Right, and that’s a really good point. And of course those early people are some of the original crime writers that I’ve read in the last three years since I’ve started getting published. My reading has branched out greatly. I’ve been, well for the second year in a row now, I’m a judge for Killer Nashville, and I’ve been a judge for the Shamus Award contest one year. I think I’m going to be a permanent judge for Killer Nashville probably as they like to bring us back.

Debbi (10:58): Cool.

Patrick (11:01): And so by that, my horizons have widened for sure.

Debbi (11:07): Yeah, I know the feeling. I feel like by reviewing books and talking to people, I’ve learned so much. Let’s see. You have three books in the series. Is this it for the series or do you plan more?

Patrick (11:24): This is definitely it for the time being. The reason is that the third book of the trilogy Giant Steps, the story reaches a resting point, not necessarily a final resting point, but a true resting point. And so the story is basically told for the time being. My protagonist Nick Crane, my seasoned LA private investigator. I may bring him back eventually, but I haven’t decided yet. But in the meantime, I’ve gone in another direction with my writing.

Debbi (12:02): What direction are you going in with your writing then?

Patrick (12:05): Well, the direction I’m going in now is to try to reach a more mainstream audience, including the large women’s market, which at least now I think they formerly were more interested in violent thrillers. But I think that’s really changed over the last five years. And so I’m kind of writing kind of, what did they say? Kind of perhaps high concept, soft-boiled crime fiction primarily geared for the women’s market.

(12:43): In order to do this, I’ve had to learn to create female protagonists and to learn how to do them convincingly. I’ve had a huge amount of help from my little sister Ellen. Sometimes when you start a book, you write sections, which you’re just kind of exploring the characters, and she had me redo things over and over again. She would say, Patrick, this simply will not do. And so one thing I learned, and this is interesting, working for John Brown at John Brown and Associates writing federal sentencing memorandums. I was very rigorously edited for the first five years because the stuff has to be essentially perfect before it can be filed in federal court.

(13:36): And so I learned to write and rewrite and rewrite some more. And so I think if anything, truly helping me with my writing, I think it was being rigorously edited for years, writing these federal sentencing memorandums. In my own work now, well, in the trilogy, the Nick Crane trilogy, every page has probably been written at least 20 times. Some pages have been gone over 30 or 40 times. I’m a very slow writer and that’s what it takes me to get it right, but having been so rigorously edited, I kind of know at this point when it’s right.

Debbi (14:17): So what sort of writing routine do you follow?

Patrick (14:21): My writing routine, it’s kind of casual. As I say, I’m a very slow writer. I don’t like to write more than four hours a day, so I try to write about 20 hours a week. And of course I’m thinking about the stories a lot at the other time. But actual time sitting at the keyboard, I would say about four hours a day, maybe five days a week, that’s always been my pattern. Now that changes when I’m doing editing late in the game. And that reminds me what I wanted to mention, this is what you readers probably do not know is that some of the small publishers do no in-house editing other than copyediting. And so on these three books, I did all my content editing myself. I have a really good friend who I send my books to when they’ve about reached beta stage and he reads them and he makes his suggestions and he’s very rigorous too.

(15:34): And so I generally followed his suggestions, and this is what I learned the collaborative process from working for John Brown is that a collaborative process results in better work than does a kind of unicellular process to coin a word. I dunno if that exists as opposed to a collaborative process. And so I very much believe in the collaborative process. If going forward, if I end up getting another publisher and I have a relationship with Shawn Simmons at Level Best Books. Now, they do complete, they refer to themselves as the Big Six. So they follow a procedure like a Big Five publishing house would where there’s a complete developmental edit and all of that. But working with my former publisher Down & Out Books who, bless their hearts, they published dozens of us, older male violent thriller authors who could not find publication elsewhere. And I am perennially grateful that they published me and they published three of my books and they were very good to me, but because they published so many authors and they were on a shoestring budget, they could not get the books into bookstores and they were not in a position to do a developmental edit.

(17:13): And so I was really largely on my own. So like Giant Steps, my most recent, I spent hundreds of hours fine tuning it after Down & Out had done their copy edit. That was really just like the beginning. And so I finally reached a point where I was happy with it.

Debbi (17:34): This is very interesting because you’re talking about the realities here of small publishing, and a lot of people don’t appreciate how hard this whole process is and how lengthy everything, the editing, the copyediting, but you can really speak to that because you’ve been involved in it at that level. So this is all very interesting.

Patrick (18:00): I’ve been involved in my own copyediting and my own content editing. It’s kind of amazing. It actually attests to the fact I’m a good writer. The fact that my books that come out as strong as they are, despite the lack of, well, but I did have the one developmental edit from my friend, my developmental editor, my personal friend, and he’s perhaps the most brilliant literary guy I know. It’s important to realize that we’re from a literary background. We’re not from a crime writing background. I came to crime writing late in life. I was probably a literary snob most of my life. I’m still, when I’m not reading crime fiction, it’s like I’m trying to get all the way through Anna Karenina and I’m determined to get through War and Peace before I die.

Debbi (18:55): Good, cause I did. It’s cool. It’s actually a really good book.

Patrick (19:01): I’m about a third of the way through War and Peace, and I’m about a third of the way through Anna Karenina.

Debbi (19:07): Excellent.

Patrick (19:08): I think I may stick with Anna Karenina for the time being because it’s a little shorter.

Debbi (19:13): My sister tells me it is good. I haven’t read it, actually. I was so busy reading War and Peace, I guess.

Patrick (19:22): Which is a monumental accomplishment.

Debbi (19:24): Oh my gosh, yes. Oh my gosh. It took him seven years, I read somewhere. And one of the things I kept telling myself when I wrote my first novel was, you’re not trying to write War and Peace, Debbi. You don’t have to take seven years to do this. Really. I noticed that you collaborated at one time with one of my favorite authors and also a person I consider a good friend, Frank Zafiro.

Patrick (19:53): Oh, sure, Frank. Yeah. This was right after Down & Out had published my first book 27 Days about when we scheduled this interview because your podcast is so incredibly popular. And so anyway, they had published 27 Days and Frank had his 35-episode anthology, A Grifter’s Song book, and they had lost a collaborator, so I was just asked to write an episode for them. And so I wrote the episode, and so I was glad to accept the offer, and so I wrote the episode for them, but I had to do it really quickly because I was really time crunched with a bunch of other things, but I wrote it and it came out I think really well. People really like it. And so that’s how I know Frank. I don’t really know Frank personally. I met him.

Debbi (20:57): Well, he does like to collaborate with people I know that much, and he’s just a really nice guy and a really good writer.

Patrick (21:06): I know that he has now gained full control over that 35-episode, five volume series, and he’s going to be republishing it, and so it may see more of the light of day.

Debbi (21:21): That’s excellent. That’s wonderful. I’m going to have to get in touch with him. It almost sounds like a screenwriting process, like a web series when you talk about a book being laid out in episodes.

Patrick (21:37): But the thing about his series, every episode is unrelated to the previous episode.

Debbi (21:41): It’s an anthology series that’s still a series,

Patrick (21:49): And there is a relationship because they’re kind of supposed to follow chronologically from the last episode. So it would be like a TV series where different writers are writing each episode and the episodes are only slightly connected.

Debbi (22:06): You’re like a very, very loose writer’s room, sort of with Frank, maybe as the showrunner, quote unquote?

Patrick (22:17): Right. Well, we’ll see how he does. Yeah, I’m looking forward to seeing how he does.

Debbi (22:22): That’s great. Let’s see. Have you ever considered screenwriting? That’s not a really monetarily immediate payoff, I got to tell you.

Patrick (22:31): No, no, I never have. I’ve never, because simply it would be an entirely new learning curve. I have enough, it’s hard enough for me to write decent novels.

Debbi (22:40): I get it. I do.

Patrick (22:42): Furthermore, everything I hear, if you’re ever going to get a TV series for your books, you’re much more likely to get a TV series from your books than you are from screenplays. I was contacted by a Hollywood script doctor not too long ago, who is interested in my series, and he made that very clear. That books are where it’s at, if you want to get a TV series.

Debbi (23:11): Yes, amen to that. Books are the lifeblood of the industry, really. IP.

Patrick (23:20): Now, the thing he told that was a little surprising was that he said that when producers are considering books they might want to turn into TV series, they’re really not interested in the quality of the writing of the books, and they’re not interested in the sales. What they’re interested in is primarily whether you have a powerful iconic protagonist or any other single thing and a storyline that they can recreate in whatever way they want into their storyline. And so that was very interesting.

Debbi (24:03): Oh, yeah.

Patrick (24:05): There’s a fellow named Alan Roth. He is sufficiently connected. He goes to the producers’ meetings and he says all TV series come about through the auspices of the producers. He goes to these meetings and they refer to themselves as the generals, suggested that everything does go through them.

Debbi (24:29): Yes, very interesting. It’s a very interesting industry, to say the least. So what authors have most inspired you and your writing?

Patrick (24:45): Well, in my crime writing?

Debbi (24:49): In your crime writing? Yeah.

Patrick (24:50): Yeah. Well, the authors that, I mean, it’s really where I started out. I started out when I moved to Los Angeles in 2003, I started reading Dennis Lehane and James Lee Burke, and I read a bit of Lee Child, too. I don’t consider him to be of the quality of the early Dennis Lehane or James Lee Burke by any means. But his books are, they’re very readable. He has the knack of making his books readable, even though they’re about very little.

(25:23): And are just kind of silly, but they’re very readable. But so mostly I read Lehane and James Lee Burke, and so that’s why I began writing kind of violent crime mystery thrillers. I was especially influenced by the early Dennis Lehane, and the reason I was is because it seemed to me that he was able to combine vivid characterizations with strong storylines and great dialogue. There was a difference I saw between him and James Lee Burke. James Lee Burke, vivid characters, beautiful writing and fine dialogue. But the third quality, the coherent plot, the coherent storyline is to some degree is lacking from James Lee Burke, in my opinion. So anyway, so I’d say Dennis Lehane was my initial powerful influence. In fact, I met him at Bouchercon last year in Nashville, and I was able to tell him after he was a keynote speaker there, or one of the keynote speakers, and I caught him afterwards and I said, Mr. Lehane, very respectfully, you were my inspiration. And I have several crime novels published now, and I probably never even would’ve written them if I hadn’t read your early Dennis Lehane books.

Debbi (26:53): That’s so cool.

Patrick (26:55): And then I asked him why he switched to writing mob novels because I thought it was very odd because in the early Patrick Kenzie mystery thrillers, he just makes so much fun of the mob. Oh my God. He castigates them. And yet there many years later, he’s writing, he wrote a series of mob novels and he said, and I’m not sure if I got the real answer from him. I was just always interested in writing a mafia novel is what he told me.

Debbi (27:38): Interesting. Well, we’re all inspired by different things, that’s for sure. What advice would you give to anyone interested in a writing career?

Patrick (27:53): Well, that’s a tough question because unless you have the proper connections and unless you are incredibly determined, you’re not likely to have much of a writing career. But I don’t think I would give advice to people with respect to a writing career. I would give people advice with respect to writing.

(28:24): What the advice would be is people should write what they love, just the kind of standard old saws, the standard cliches. People should write what they love, they should write what they know about, and they should write what they think might be what is meaningful to them. When I was a young man, when I was in college, I wrote a couple of early novels, and I had an agent back in New York back in the days when all those things were much easier to do, and he shopped two of my books for two years around New York, and they didn’t sell. I mean, he wasn’t able to land a deal rather.

(29:08): And so I learned pretty early on that just the fact that you get an agent, it doesn’t really mean anything. I have a good friend now, a young writer who actually, he’s not that young, but he’s younger than me, and he has a book with an agent, with a fairly, very respected agent, and she’s been shopping it for a year or two, and I could hear complaints from him, well, it’s just sitting on her desk. She’s not sending it out anymore. What’s going on? I had the same exact experience with my Nick Crane thrillers back a few years ago when I was attempting to find representation, and I had a well-known Hollywood producer from yesterday year, a man named Peter Hoffman. He actually schooled me also in learning how to write mystery thrillers, crime mystery thrillers. And he managed, with help of people that he knew, I got a New York agent just a few years ago, three years ago, and he shopped one of the books that comprised the Nick Crane trilogy.

(30:24): He shopped Rogues and Patriots for two years around New York and no success. He sent it to 65 publishers. So he worked really hard on it. He did make a key mistake, in my opinion, he should have demanded a very thorough rewrite, and he didn’t. And because what happened was then the first book of the trilogy that was published 27 Days, that was published through Down & Out by a recommendation from a writer you may know of Charles Salzberg.

(30:58): Charles recommended me to Down & Out, and then Down & Out, published 27 Days. And then after that I was a bit more experienced, and I reread Rogues and Patriots, the second book in the trilogy, and I realized, oh my God, this needs a slew of work. So I did all the work on my own and sent it to Down & Out, and then they published it. And I really feel like, and I think agents often do that. I think often they get a book and it has a whole lot of promise, but it needs, it’s at about the beta stage maybe at best. It needs a whole lot of work, and I think they often don’t have their authors do that work, and so it puts ’em at a huge disadvantage when they start sending it out.

Debbi (31:55): Yes, I agree with you completely. In fact, I suspect from what I’ve heard about the publishing world, developmental editing has taken a hit because of how much it costs to keep that staff on hand. Would that be correct?

Patrick (32:16): Well, I think probably so. I mean, I am sure you probably know more about it than me, but it makes sense.

Debbi (32:22): I mean, it just seems like editing is just not as done as it used to be because everybody’s so anxious to get the books out there.

Patrick (32:34): How do you think it’s handled at the Big Five publishers?

Debbi (32:38): I don’t know. That’s the thing. I really don’t know much about Big Five publishing other than what I hear from people who have books with Big Five publishing. What I hear is not always the best thing.

Patrick (32:52): They’re probably often complaining they’re not getting enough support.

Debbi (32:55): Oh, yeah. I mean, there’s never enough marketing support. When you’re a crime fiction writer, you never get enough marketing support unless you’re somebody like Lee Child or Stephen King or I can name a bunch of big names. We all know who they are. I’m not going to do it.

Patrick (33:15): I can give you an example of, when I was at the LA Book Festival this last spring. We were sitting there at the, it was either Sisters in Crime or MWA, Mystery Writers of America, and I was sitting next to Nicholas Meyer who wrote The Seven-Per-Cent Solution years ago

(33:33): And has written many books. And he was mostly a Hollywood guy the last 20 or 30 years. And so he recently wrote a book, and Nicholas Meyer is one of the readiest people I’ve ever talked to. And so he’s telling me about he had to go on his, he did a book tour through his publisher of his last book, but they really didn’t support, they set up the book tour, I guess, but he had to pay all his own expenses. He had to lug all his own books around, and he was talking about this. And meanwhile there at the LA Book Festival, because he’s very popular, his books were selling, he must have sold maybe a hundred to 200 books over the course of two or three hours when we were manning the booth. So this is how popular he is. Yet he had to pay his own expenses to get from city to city.

Debbi (34:31): Isn’t that something?

Patrick (34:33): And he has a Big Five publisher.

Debbi (34:35): Yeah. Yeah. Isn’t that something? Doesn’t that make you wonder, oh, never mind. I’m not going to go there.

Patrick (34:42): According to what I. Oh, go ahead.

Debbi (34:45): I was just going to say what advice, no, I’ve already asked you that. Is there anything else that I have not asked you about that you would like to bring up in conclusion?

Patrick (35:00): Yeah. Well, I think I would like to just touch back on your question. What advice would I give to writers? I would say, first of all, unless you’re a genius, you’re probably going to have to write a number of novels before until you’re able to write an actual publishable novel that is a novel that someone else would publish. Obviously anyone can self-publish a novel. So I’d say it’s a very long learning curve, unless you’re a genius. Truman Capote wrote Other Voices, Other Rooms when he was 24 years old. It was by far his best novel, in my opinion. And he never really wrote another good novel unless you consider Breakfast at Tiffany’s to be a good novel. I consider it to be kind of ho-hum.

Debbi (36:01): It’s okay. The movie’s better.

Patrick (36:05): Yeah, probably so. I don’t think I’ve seen the movie, but yet he wrote at age 20 and he’d written, he started writing and he was seven years old and had written millions of words by the time he wrote that when he was a very young man. And so I would say it’s a very long learning curve unless you’re a genius, but it’s a very rewarding learning curve because you will eventually learn how to write irrespective of genre, whether you’re writing crime fiction, thrillers, mysteries, cozies, and my new work I’m working on, actually, there’s a kind of tiny element of the cozy to it perhaps, but not the pure cozy which has the whole interest like in cooking or whatever the interest might be. But so whatever you write, there is a very long learning curve and you have to love it. It has to, and it shouldn’t be. I remember one of my English teachers when I was first starting out at college at the community college, Foothill Community College in Los Altos, California, and he was a very good writer, and he’d actually had, he won one year, the Iowa Workshop for the outstanding book of short fiction. And I’ve read that book four or five times and a bunch of good short stories, but he wasn’t really a natural novelist, and it was clear to me that he really didn’t enjoy writing. It’s like the idea of writing, being suffering,

(37:43): Writing really shouldn’t be suffering. I know there’s the cliche of the suffering artist, and the artist may be suffering, but the writing itself should not be suffering. It should be more pleasurable than not, so that it’s something you really feel compelled to stick with because it takes a long, long time to get good. I thought of another friend I have who is an unpublished novelist, and I’ve read three of his novels, and the first two weren’t even close to being publishable, and the last one is closer, but it would still need another year’s work. It’s very long and it would need another year’s work. Now, this fellow, he’s had several short stories published. He’s an excellent short story writer, and he has probably only written a dozen or so, but they’re very good. And then once again, for advice to writers, well, some writers are probably better suited for writing short stories, short fiction rather than full length novels. It depends what you have a natural predilection for. For me, I mean, I had several short stories published when I was at university, but in the college magazines.

(39:06): But other than that, I’ve written very few short stories and I don’t feel like I have a natural inclination for it. Whereas the idea of the novel, the big, broad canvas, is very appealing to me. So once again, what do you want to write? What do you enjoy writing? And is it meaningful to you? And are you willing to pay your dues? Because the dues, it’s kind of like there’s no ending to the dues, because even if you do learn to write and you get your books published or your books are good enough that they’re on a par with what small publishers would publish, even if you indie publish, unless you reach that point, there’s no way on earth your books are going to sell. And so then the other thing you have to realize is that even if you learn to write excellent fiction, there’s no guarantee you’re going to be able to sell very many volumes.

Debbi (40:04): Yes. That’s just the honest truth right there. Yeah. There are no guarantees.

Patrick (40:10): It really needs to be a labor of love,

Debbi (40:14): Amen to that.

Patrick (40:16): But if you stick with it, you may just succeed because obviously many, many writers do succeed.

Debbi (40:22): Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Well, that seems like a really good point to end on, that you can succeed if you stick with it and you try to be good at it, as opposed to just slapping something together and putting it out there. So Patrick, I just want to thank you so much for spending time with us today in talking about this.

Patrick (40:48): Well, I thought this was a good, interesting conversation and we talked about writing quite a bit as opposed to just talking about my books.

Debbi (41:00): That’s what I like to do,

Patrick (41:03): And I really enjoyed as I’ve done lots of podcasts and I really enjoyed this one. I enjoyed talking about, focusing mostly on writing. I thought that was really refreshing.

Debbi (41:14): Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Maybe that’s why the podcast has become so popular that people just like talking about this stuff. I like that. That’s good. Excellent. I want to just thank Patrick again and extend my thanks to everyone listening, including my wonderful Patreon supporters. Thank you so much. Until next time, my guest will be Victoria Sellman then, take care and happy reading.

For early access to ad-free episodes and other perks, become a podcast supporter here!

View Details

My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with legal thriller author Amanda DuBois.

Among other things, we talk about how telling true stories persuasively can make you a better fiction writer.

For a PDF copy of the interview, just click here. It’s there, somewhere. 🙂

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest this week is the founder and managing partner of DuBois Levias Law Group, one of Washington State’s longest standing woman-owned law firms before becoming a family law attorney, a field I learned to avoid like the plague, frankly, she was a labor and delivery nurse. She uses her medical and legal knowledge to address inequities in the legal system as an author of the Camille Delaney Mystery series, an award-winning book series. Her third and latest book is called Unshackled. She also founded an organization that helps formerly incarcerated people to reenter society. What a laudable goal. And I just finished reading the script for The Shawshank Redemption. What interesting timing. Anyway, I’m pleased to have with me today the author Amanda DuBois. Hi, Amanda. How are you doing?

Amanda (01:57): I’m doing awesome. I want a copy of that script. How interesting that would be.

Debbi (02:01): Oh, I can probably send you the link to where it was found. Or even a copy.

Amanda (02:05): Oh, fantastic. I didn’t know you were reading that.

Debbi (02:09): Oh, it, it’s kind of cool to read it, and I didn’t have a chance to actually watch the movie. We were doing a discussion on it, and I hadn’t had a chance to see it in a long time, but it seemed like there were scenes in there that might not have made it into the movie, which was interesting.

Amanda (02:24): Yeah, that’s exactly right.

Debbi (02:26): It was very interesting to read, but I’m always pleased to have a lawyer on who has written crime fiction. I’m just pleased to see lawyers writing fiction, frankly, in general. And you have done some remarkable work starting your own law firm. How long have you had your own law firm?

Amanda (02:49): So I’m just this year celebrating 30 years.

Debbi (02:52): 30 years.

Amanda (02:53): And so that makes us one of Seattle’s longest-standing women owned law firms.

Debbi (02:58): That’s really awesome.

Amanda (02:59): We’ve been celebrating all year. We have a little pontoon boat outside our office. Our office is on a lake, and we just did this champagne thing. You cork the champagne off and yeah, we’ve been having a good time celebrating.

Debbi (03:11): That’s awesome. That’s fantastic. I think I can hazard a guess as to what led you from delivering babies to law, perhaps the absolutely broken healthcare system in this country that had something to do with it?

Amanda (03:26): Well, a little bit. Yeah. Mostly I just wanted to do something different and was, here’s a really funny story. How I ended up in law is I wanted to get out of nursing and I thought I’d go to medical school. So I went, took all the super hard science classes and then I decided I didn’t really like … I took like two years of biochemistry and all that stuff. And then I thought, well, maybe I’ll go get an MBA. And so I went to buy the MBA study guide book at the bookstore, and right next to that was the law school book. And I thought, well, I’ll buy that. I’d never thought about law school. So I went home and I was doing the MBA study book, and it was all this math and calculus and it was really hard, and I thought, this is awful. So I got a beer and sat down and did the law school study book, and I’m like, oh, this is much easier.

(04:09): So my husband came home and I said, I’m going to go to law school. And he goes, what? I said, well, I’m not good at this MBA stuff. It’s too much math, and I’m really good at this law school, so they must have a better idea about what would make a good lawyer. So I was totally the accidental lawyer. I had no interest really in being a lawyer at all, but I thought I had the aptitude. So anyway, I ended up in law school and ended up as a medical malpractice lawyer for the first seven years of my practice. So once I got into law school, I thought, okay, I got to work on this healthcare system. So you’re right.

Debbi (04:40): Oh, wow. Well, that is really interesting. There are so many similarities between you and me in terms of background. I had this hard science background for a while and then the math killed me and I was like, oh, no, no, I can’t do this. I was really interested in physics for some reason, and then it was just like–

Amanda (04:58): Me, too!

Debbi (04:58): Wow, how interesting.

Amanda (05:02): In my other life I want to be like an astrophysicist or somebody kind of like math genius or something, but it’s not happening in this lifetime. So here we are.

Debbi (05:10): Here we are, yeah.

Amanda (05:10): Here are writing books.

Debbi (05:12): I’m a would be cosmologist. You’re a would be astrophysicist. I want to know about the origins of the universe. How did this all start anyway?

Amanda (05:21): Right.

Debbi (05:25): So how would you describe your books? Are they kind of like crime fiction? Where are they in the spectrum of who-dunnit to stop the bad guy before it happens?

Amanda (05:35): So they’re legal thrillers.

Debbi (05:37): Legal thrillers.

Amanda (05:38): And so the protagonist is a lawyer named Camille Delaney. And the reason I started, I wrote the first book was because I was a trial lawyer and I was super frustrated with how we value human lives in the legal system. If you’re a young bank president and you die, you’re worth millions of dollars. But if you’re a 65-year-old retired person and you died because of malpractice, you’re worth way less than that. And it bothered me because when I was a nurse, whoever comes into the hospital, they’re important, you don’t treat bank presidents different than you treat old people or vice versa. And every human life has the same amount of value in the medical system. So I end up in the legal system where people’s value is basically based on what they can earn. And it really bothered me, and I was medical malpractice lawyer for many years and I wanted to write an article or inform people about this injustice, and I thought, nobody’s going to read a dumb article about the value of human life in the legal system.

(06:37): Who’s going to read that? And I thought, well, maybe I could write a fiction book and it’s going to be about an old guy who dies, and it’s going to be about the protagonist who is struggling with trying to communicate to the insurance company and the defendants that the widow deserves more money than just the amount of money you’d give to some old guy who died. So the whole purpose of the book was to sort of expose this really horrible way that the legal system has with dealing with human lives.

And then the next book was about a baby who died because they do the same thing to babies. They say, oh, you could always have another one. And it’s like, what are you talking about? So the second book is about a baby who died, and it’s a mystery, so you’re trying to figure out, it’s a fun mystery, but at the end of it, I’m hoping that the readers are like, wow, I never really thought about that before. So I use the legal thriller sort of genre to talk about inequities in the legal system.

And then the third book is about women in prison who have been separated from their children and the importance of reuniting women with their children when they’re in prison and after they get out of prison. And so the whole and that book when you get finished with that it’s like, oh my God, I had no idea the struggles and the impact on our society and our communities when we incarcerate moms.

(08:00): Their kids become at risk, and then those kids are more likely to get into trouble in the legal system in the future. And so this book, while it’s a story about a kidnapped baby that the protagonist and her private detective have to find the baby all along the way, you’re learning things about the criminal legal system and how messed up it is. So.

Debbi (08:20): Yeah, for sure.

Amanda (08:21): That’s the high level what these books are about.

Debbi (08:25): Did you find that changing from writing legal briefs and documents to writing fiction required any kind of adjustment in the way you wrote or thought about writing?

Amanda (08:37): You know, not really, because I never really thought about this before, but if you’re writing a good trial brief or a good motion, you have to convince the reader that it’s true. And you have to write a, so I am a family law lawyer, so when I’m talking about, when I’m writing a motion or doing a trial, it’s about a family and a child and money and finance and all these things that are kind of a little bit exciting. I mean, that sound kind of smutty and dramatic and emotional for most lawyers, but it’s really pretty fun and you are writing this family’s story to present it to a judge.

And so it’s different in terms of, obviously you have a lot longer in a book, but it’s very similar in the way of, I mean, having been a lawyer for so long, I think it makes me kind of a better writer because I’ve had to tell true people’s stories to judges both in writing and verbally for the past 30 years. So it’s a good question, but it’s really, I’m sure if I was a lawyer for banks or Microsoft or something, I wouldn’t have the same thing to say, but when I’m telling family stories, yeah, absolutely.

Debbi (09:43): That’s true. That’s very true. I was going to say, my tendency was to overexplain things at first. It’s like, no, no, you don’t have to explain that the sky is blue because of, I didn’t do it that badly, but it was just.

Amanda (09:58): Yeah, it’s a lot.

Debbi (09:59): Yeah. Gosh, I’m thinking like a lawyer, not like a fiction writer at this point. So I’m thinking–

Amanda (10:06): We’re not exactly writing fiction, but we’re writing stories and we’re writing stories. If you’re good at it, you convince a judge that you’re right.

Debbi (10:14): That’s it. It’s not the same thing as writing fiction, but you draw on storytelling ability. That’s what it comes down to. And that’s one of the things that always attracted me about law school. I thought, what a great place to learn more stories.

Amanda (10:33): Well, and all the people that you meet and all of the stories that you hear and they all weave in, every time you write a book character, there’s a little bit of somebody in there. Right? They’re not just didn’t come out of nowhere.

Debbi (10:45): Exactly. Yeah. Do you have a plan in terms of how long you want to write the series or where you would like it to go?

Amanda (10:54): Well, I’ve got a million stories. So over the years, I wrote the first Camille Delaney mystery like 20 years ago, and I got a New York agent and the whole thing, and then it kind of fizzled, and then I re-upped it during COVID and got a publisher. And so I had to update that book.

So the first two I had written a long time ago, the third one I just wrote in the past several years, but between when I was a trial lawyer and now I’ve had a huge opportunity to get to know people in the criminal legal system because I started this nonprofit that helps people when they get out of prison. And so I’ve learned about inequities in the legal system that I couldn’t have ever have imagined. Because I’m like a privileged white lady divorce lawyer. I’m not someone who spends a lot of time in prisons or I wasn’t.

(11:41): And now that I am, and I learned the stories of the people and how it got them there, I feel really compelled to fictionalize them because I think it’s so much easier for people to develop empathy and to relate to a character who’s going through a real life type problem from the perspective of writing fiction.

And so the book I’m working on right now is going to be a domestic violence survivor who kills her abuser, because that’s really, you go into the women’s prison and ask those women, how many of them have been sexually abused? 85% of ’em. They’re all trauma survivors. And what are we doing putting them in prison? I don’t understand. It’s like they don’t belong in prison. They belong in therapy.

Debbi (12:25): Seriously. Oh my gosh. Are you familiar with a publication? I think it’s called The Marshall Report? I’m trying to think of what it’s called.

Amanda (12:36): Is that part of the .. yeah, yeah, I think so.

Debbi (12:37): They’re always reporting on prisoner situations.

Amanda (12:43): Well, there’s a million of them. And you could just think of all the stories that you can tell about people whose lives have taken a, Brian Stevenson, I don’t know if you know who he is, but he is a super famous lawyer who started the Equal Justice Initiative and he helps represent people in death row. And he says, we’re all better than the worst thing we’ve ever done.

(13:07): And it’s true. So when I meet people who are either in prison or who have recently come out of prison, they’re basically not that different than you and I, but they may have done something really wrong. Or most of the women in prison are there because they’re sexual abuse survivors.

They can’t afford therapy because they’re not in that demographic, like maybe we are where if you were abused or something, you go to a therapist. So they end up ultimately getting on street drugs. And they say that when I first took meth, it made me feel safe and I felt comfortable, and I felt, first time I felt like I was okay. And so they self-medicate with street drugs, which obviously is a horrible path to go down because then you end up doing property crimes to support your street drug habit, and then you end up in prison.

But you’re not there cause you woke up one morning and decided to break into a car, you’re there because you have this horrible childhood and horrible childhood experience. And I feel like we all need to understand that better.

Then their children. Then you take the mothers away from their children and then their children become at risk in our society because those are the kids who end up in trouble. So it’s a community safety issue. So anyway, so I write these stories about kind of real, they’re not true stories, but they’re real life stories.

Debbi (14:25): Informed by things that you’ve experienced.

Amanda (14:29): And then the other part about it for me being a lawyer and writing is because some people will say, you must have to do so much research. And I’m like, I don’t have to do any research.

I’ve been in the courtroom. I know exactly when I’m describing a courtroom and the wire hangers and the weird, that floor that’s made of the, I can’t remember, the linoleum floors and the mismatched chairs and the pews that are kind of sticky, because they’ve been there for a million years. I mean, I’ve done that for so many years.

Most of the stories that I tell are stories that I’ve heard from my friends. And so once in a while, I had to do research in this last book because I’ve never done a CR-7 motion to vacate a criminal record. So I had to talk to my friend who runs the Innocence Project up here in Seattle to help with some of the technical stuff.

But it’s fun for me to write courtroom scenes because since Zoom, we’re all lawyering on Zoom now, and so we don’t go into the courtroom as much. So it’s kind of bittersweet to write the scenes of the lawyers in the courtroom and the audio visual equipment and tripping over the wires and all the crazy things that happened during a trial. So they’re pretty real.

Debbi (15:37): So most courtroom proceedings now are taking place on Zoom?

Amanda (15:42): In Seattle, in family law, we’re all on Zoom.

Debbi (15:45): Wow.

Amanda (15:46): We went on Zoom during COVID there.

Debbi (15:47): So much has changed.

Amanda (15:49): We went on Zoom during COVID, and then this is kind of a funny story. So one of the judges I was talking to, he was saying, you know how the courtrooms are set up where the judge sits up here and the witness sits over here, and then the jury’s over there, so the witnesses are sitting facing away from the judge because they’re supposed to be talking to the jury, but in family law, there’s no jury.

And so the witnesses sit here and the judge sits up here and the witness talks to the lawyer over there. And the judge was saying, I spent 20 years listening to family law cases, looking at the back of the witness’s heads, and now on Zoom, I see them full on face, and I can get a much better feel for the people looking them in the face on a Zoom than I ever could in the courtroom. I thought I had never thought, it was really weird.

Debbi (16:30): Yeah, that’s a great point, and it’s a very interesting point. I hope writers are listening and taking notes here. If you’re in Washington State, at least, in domestic law, take notes.

Amanda (16:41): Another thing is access to justice, because in family law, it’s hard to get, I don’t know if anybody knows, and most courthouses are downtown, and you got to park, and if grandma’s going to come and testify or somebody like that, and you got to get ’em downtown and you got to get ’em in a parking garage and you got to get ’em down the street and up the elevator and through the security in the courthouse, and then she sits out in the hall for an hour waiting for a turn versus grandma’s sitting in her living room and you call her up and say, turn on your camera.

We’re on Zoom now, and she’s on and off in 15 minutes. And so the judges have kind of decided in family law it’s an access to justice thing, that it’s easier for people to access the legal system on Zoom than it is to have to go through all of the hoops to actually get down to the courthouse. Isn’t that interesting?

Debbi (17:28): Yeah, that’s very interesting. It also saves the client a little bit of money.

Amanda (17:32): A lot of money.

Debbi (17:32): If you bill by the hour,

Amanda (17:35): Imagine you’re paying an expert witness like $800 an hour to sit out in the hall up in the courtroom until they testify. Yeah, it’s totally different now.

Debbi (17:46): Wow, this is mind blowing for me now. I feel like I have to get in touch with some lawyers in my own area and see what they’re doing differently.

Amanda (17:54): Yeah. See, I don’t know. It’s family law for sure. So.

Debbi (17:57): Interesting. Very interesting.

Amanda (17:59): And also speaking of that, in a domestic violence case, you don’t have to see your abuser in the courtroom.

Debbi (18:06): Yes.

Amanda (18:07): You don’t have to be standing in the courtroom. You’re on Zoom, and you can turn your camera off and ignore them. And so it’s really a good thing.

Debbi (18:13): It really is a plus. Yeah, it’s a real plus. That’s amazing. It’s really interesting to hear how technology has changed things in a good way in that respect.

Amanda (18:27): Probably doesn’t make very good legal scenes in a book though.

Debbi (18:29): Oh, well. Yeah. But somebody might have to write it in if they happen to. I don’t know. Somebody’s camera could go haywire, people could screw with it, and they could have cat ears, whiskers. I got to ask, what authors have you found most inspirational for your own work and that you admire?

Amanda (18:51): I just go back to 101 Lawyer like Grisham and Ludlum, and those guys, they’re like the icons, and this is kind of how it rolls out. So I’d say those would be the ones.

Debbi (19:06): And what are you working on now?

Amanda (19:09): So right now, two things. I’m working on the fourth book in the series, which is going to be about a domestic violence victim who kills her abuser. And then I’m also working on, I decided I wanted to learn about screenplays and stuff, and so I thought maybe my third book would make a good movie. And so I ended up getting connected to this movie producer who also, interestingly is formerly incarcerated. So he was very, very interested in this story, and the more we worked together, the more we decided it’s probably better for a TV series because it’s like this Camille Delaney series can go on forever. So he connected me to a friend who’s a TV writer, and so I’ve been learning about TV screenwriting, which is way different than writing a book, as you probably know.

Debbi (19:56): Oh, yeah.

Amanda (19:57): And so he was like coaching me for about six months and going through all this and doing the pitch and all that kind of stuff. At the end of six months, he says, well, I’m trying to figure out where we should go next. And I said, well, I’m open. I don’t know anything about this. And he goes, well, how about I become your partner instead of your coach, because I think this is good and I can turn it into something good. And I’m like, well, thank God, because I’ve reached my capacity of figuring out how to write a TV show. So anyway, so I’m working with him on that. And I know that’s a total long shot crap shoot. But who knows? Maybe I’ll figure it out.

Debbi (20:29): You never know. You just never know. As William Goldman said, nobody knows anything. You never know what might hit or whatever.

Amanda (20:41): I think there, seems like there’s always a market for lawyers. It’s sort of like Erin Brockovich meets The Lincoln Lawyer. It’s kind of like that.

Debbi (20:49): Erin Brockovich meets.

Amanda (20:51): The Lincoln Lawyer, which is …

Debbi (20:52): The Lincoln Lawyer? Yes. Oh my gosh, that sounds very promising. I like that pitch. That’s good. I’m working on something that’s kind of like Erin Brockovich meets Suburgatory.

Amanda (21:05): Oh, dear.

Debbi (21:06): Kind of. It’s different. It’s interesting. It’s a short screenplay that I’m hoping.

Amanda (21:12): Oh, cool. Yeah. I saw you’re a screenwriter, so you probably, I’m very new to this, so it’s different.

Debbi (21:18): Very, oh my God, I have spent the literally the last 15 years learning this craft, and it is very different. It’s so similar in certain ways, yet very, very different.

Amanda (21:32): Everything has to be so tight and you can’t talk about internal dialogue. It’s all got to be dialogue and action and people’s faces. Now I can see why actors are so important. Like, oh, they communicate a lot more than you. If they’re good at it, you don’t even know they’re doing it. Right.

Debbi (21:48): Exactly. Exactly. What’s really interesting is I just directed my first short film.

Amanda (21:53): Oh, wow. Tell me about it.

Debbi (21:54): I got to actually work with the actors, so it was the best experience of my life. I really enjoyed it. It was tough, but it was something that I really wanted to try.

Amanda (22:05): That’s cool.

Debbi (22:06): I feel like that’s just opened up a new something for me. I don’t know what exactly We’ll see right now.

Amanda (22:13): What kind of film?

Debbi (22:14): It’s a short film, about 10 minutes long, about a priest who was a former assassin, basically who turned to the priesthood to basically hide from the people he was working for. And 20 years later, somebody comes to him to confess something, and it’s basically turns into a confrontation where he has to atone for his sins in a sense, kind of face what he’s done, face the consequences of what he’s done.

Amanda (22:47): Wow.

Debbi (22:47): And it’s called “Absolution.”

Amanda (22:50): That’s intense.

Debbi (22:51): Yeah, it was pretty intense.

Amanda (22:55): Yeah. That’s cool.

Debbi (22:55): But it was, it’s short and I’m in post-production at this point, which means I’m going to be editing it.

Amanda (23:04): Wow, good for you. Technology, more technology skills.

Debbi (23:08): Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I’m doing things that I never would’ve thought possible or I even imagined doing. When you said about going to law school, I did not go to college thinking, gee, I’m going to go to law school after this. I took journalism ultimately, and it’s like, okay, I don’t really want to be a reporter. What do I want to do? And I happened to meet, my husband’s cousin is married to a lawyer. I just happened to have a talk with him and he was telling me about his work, and I thought, gee, that sounds like I’m going to be bored. I didn’t want to be bored, but I wanted to be paid.

Amanda (23:51): I think people that don’t go to undergraduate school to be lawyers, people like you and me, we make better lawyers because you have a different perspective because you’re not sort of brainwashed into this whole, the kids that come up out of, what do they call it, pre-law classes or I came out there, I didn’t know what the constitution hardly even was. I was all in hard sciences and journalism sort of, you’re in writing, so it gives you a different perspective on the law if you didn’t come up as a sort of true believer. It gives you like, wait, what you’re doing it? Why are we doing that?

Debbi (24:25): Exactly. It gives you a whole different perspective on the system, the process, everything. And I also wrote more concisely than anybody I could think of in my law school class. When I was working at EPA, there was a supervisor who would “red pencil” everybody’s stuff, tighten this, tighten this. She would just look at my stuff and go, you write, you are an exemplary writer.

Amanda (24:53): And that’s what lawyers do. That’s such a big part of our job. So [cross-talk] a writer is amazing. That’s awesome.

Debbi (25:00): Choosing the right words is so important. She said.

Amanda (25:05): Ditching the adjectives.

Debbi (25:07): Oh my gosh. Yes. It’s more work than people imagine, I think, being a lawyer. It just is. Well, I just want to thank you so much for being here. Oh, is there anything, do you have any advice to give for people who would like to get into writing? I always like to end up with that question and another question.

Amanda (25:26): Yeah. I would say that to me, find something that you’re pissed off about because that will compel you to want to write something that is interesting and persuasive. Because for me, it was, I get really pissed off about the inequities in the criminal legal system or in the legal system in general, and it pushes me to want to, it’s writing with a purpose for me. I could never probably just write a book about a family or something unless I had a personal family issue that compelled me. But I think if you have something that you want to communicate about that you’re pissed off about, I think that’s a weird way of saying it, but really I think that gives you this. Then you have a mission, then you’re on a mission.

Debbi (26:10): Yeah.

Amanda (26:11): Your writing is more interesting and compelling, because there’s a reason why you’re doing it.

Debbi (26:16): Yes. You found your why. That’s another thing they talk about a lot in screenwriting. What is your why? Why are you writing this?

Amanda (26:25): Why does a character do that? I was working with this coach. I know you got to go, but he was saying, we would go through this. Why, why, why, why? And finally, one day he says, do you kind of feel like you’re in therapy? And I’m like, yes.

Debbi (26:37): Yes. It is a bit like tearing your guts out when you do this stuff.

Amanda (26:42): Yeah, it is.

Debbi (26:42): Is there anything you’d like to add before we finish up?

Amanda (26:48): Well, I don’t think so. It’s been super interesting. It’s always nice to talk to a fellow lawyer, author, writer, screenwriter type person. So.

Debbi (26:54): Amen. Thank you.

Amanda (26:55): We have so much in common, but this has been super fun, so thanks for having me.

Debbi (26:58): Fantastic. Well, this is wonderful. I’m so glad you decided to sign up here and be on. So thank you very much for being here today. My pleasure.

Amanda (27:10): Thanks for having me.

Debbi (27:11): It was my pleasure. Believe me, to everyone who’s watching or listening, don’t forget that we have a Patreon page and on Patreon you get all sorts of extras if you become a patron. Bonus episodes, ad-free episodes and more. Also, check out the Crime Cafe 9-book set and short story anthology, which you can find on my Patreon page. Until next time, when my guest will be Patrick Moore, take care and happy reading. Be seeing you.

Check out our Patreon page!

And happy holiday weekend to my US readers~~, whose ancestors may or may not have been exterminated~~!

Bold enough for ya? 🙂

View Details

My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with crime fiction author Desmond P. Ryan.

Check out our discussion about Toronto and the experiences in law enforcement that have informed his fiction.

You can download a copy of the transcript here.

Debbi Mack (00:07): Hi everyone. My guest today is a former police detective with the Toronto Police who draws on his experiences to write two very distinctive series, the Mike O’Shea series of gritty police stories, reminiscent of Joseph Wambaugh, so definitely gritty stuff. And also a series called A Pint of Trouble, which is closer in tone, apparently to the Thursday Murder Club books by Richard Osman. So I find that just a fascinating dichotomy of series there. Way not to get pigeonholed. It’s my pleasure to have with me today, the author Desmond P. Ryan. Hi Des, how are you doing today?

Desmond Ryan (00:54): I’m doing great, Debbi. How about yourself?

Debbi Mack (00:57): Quite well, thank you. I just got through wrapping on my first film. I directed a film a week ago. It was a short film. It’s a short film. Yes.

Desmond Ryan (01:12): I’ll bet that’s a lot of work.

Debbi Mack (01:14): Oh boy. It was a lot of work and it was a very, very interesting and eye opening, just kind of an experience I’ll never forget.

Desmond Ryan (01:24): What’s the film about?

Debbi Mack (01:25): It’s about a priest who has a dark, somewhat dangerous past who has to face the consequences of what he’s done.

Desmond Ryan (01:36): Okay.

Debbi Mack (01:37): I’ll leave it at that. I don’t want to spoil anything.

Desmond Ryan (01:40): And where will we be seeing this film?

Debbi Mack (01:42): I hope to have it somewhere online eventually. Somehow I think that the company that I was associated with, the nonprofit called Charm City Filmmakers helped make this happen. They basically teach new directors how to be directors, what’s involved and who does what on the set, that kind of thing, and what your role is. And you’d be surprised how much work the first AD or assistant director does. It’s just this amazing process that, it requires you to be really paying attention for one thing.

Desmond Ryan (02:32): So it’s not all magic?

Debbi Mack (02:35): It’s magic, but it’s magic that looks invisible. I mean, the best magic does not reveal its tricks. Right?

Desmond Ryan (02:44): That’s true.

Debbi Mack (02:45): But it’s funny. People go behind the scenes all the time and see the tricks, so it’s interesting, but it’s a magic that we willingly buy into. Something like that.

Desmond Ryan (02:56): Yes, you’re going to have to let us know when it’s going to be [inaudible] I’m already excited.

Debbi Mack (03:03): Thank you. I feel like I’ve kind of hijacked this interview with you here. Just mentioning that film. My God, the film was really just a great experience and I’ll probably talk about it more on a YouTube channel, so I’m on YouTube as Debbi Mack if you want to find it there.

Desmond Ryan (03:22): We will.

Debbi Mack (03:23): Okay, awesome. Let’s see. You have the Mike O’Shea Series and the Pint of Trouble series. It’s interesting. They’re so very different. I love that you’re writing though focuses on the diversity of Toronto’s neighborhoods. I’m just fascinated with neighborhoods and how cities are made up of neighborhoods often. Tell us about the neighborhoods in Toronto and in particular, Cabbagetown, which I never knew about until I found out you were there, looked it up and has a very interesting entry on Wikipedia.

Desmond Ryan (04:03): Yeah. Well, Debbi I’m born and raised in Toronto, and so I take a lot of it for granted, and it would take me hours and hours and hours to explain the diversity of Toronto. I believe it is the most diverse city in the world, not just because Des says so, but I think in whoever measures all of that stuff out it is. And it’s made up of little neighborhoods, and a lot of the neighborhoods are based on culture and ethnicity, and it’s a really, really, I think, fascinating city. You have things like Chinatown, Little Italy, Little Portugal, Little India. You’ve got Somali neighborhoods, you’ve got all kinds of neighborhoods. And the neighborhood I live in is called Cabbagetown, and it is an old, old neighborhood, when we are talking Toronto years. Many of the houses here were built in the late 1800s, and they were originally built as fairly large Victorian homes.

(05:14): And as the neighborhood turned over and the economy went belly up and all that sort of thing, the houses got into disrepair. A lot of them were turned into rooming houses or broken up into flats and things like that. And one of the reasons that they call this neighborhood Cabbagetown is that the people who lived here, because of the economic depression at the time, were growing cabbages in their front yard. And so that’s how it came to be called Cabbagetown. And for a long time, this neighborhood was very disenfranchised and they put a very, very large public housing complex in the area, which was called Regent Park, and they ripped down a pile of old houses that were used as rooming houses to facilitate this. And then rather than invigorate the neighborhood—again, the houses were rooming houses, things like that—it became a very tough neighborhood.

(06:21): And at one time, I actually policed in this neighborhood, and that would’ve been in the early nineties. And I remember policing here and thinking, who the heck would want to live here? Now what ended up happening was this neighborhood is also very close to what we call the Gay Village, the Church and Wellesley area, which became heavily populated with gay men and lesbians, mostly gay men who then saw the economic opportunity in these old houses. And so they started buying these houses, refurbishing them, and through that action basically turned the neighborhood around. And so now these houses are worth millions of dollars. They’re gorgeous. I think it’s the largest historic neighborhood in Canada, which means that the exterior of the houses cannot be changed. So these are from the outside, they’re time-locked. So it makes for a very, very beautiful neighborhood.

Debbi Mack (07:27): Very interesting. That’s fascinating. Yeah, it’s fascinating the way things change over time, isn’t it? Let’s see. What inspired you to create Detective Mike O’Shea as a character and give him so many problems?

Desmond Ryan (07:48): Well, as you’d said, I spent almost 30 years in policing, and the first 15 years of my career were done in uniform in various capacities, including foot patrol and primary response and community officer and all that sort of thing. And then I became a uniform sergeant, and then I became a detective. And as my career was going on, more winding down, getting to the end, I realized that I had a lot of distinct knowledge that really had no relevance in the outside world. Not a lot of people want to know the stages of rigor mortis, not a lot of people want to know about gathering evidence, things like that. And so I thought, well, what can I do with this information? And I had done my undergrad degree at the University of Toronto in English literature and political science. It’s an obvious segue into policing.

(08:53): But what ended up happening is, I thought, well, why don’t I just start writing this story? And so I created this character, and as any of your listeners know who are writers, oftentimes you have an outline of a character. And even if you really define the character, they kind of develop their own selves. And so as I was writing the story, also looking at the impact of what was happening to the characters, specifically Mike O’Shea, of course, he would develop these problems because otherwise, I mean, don’t know, not to give anything away, but in the very first book, there’s a major … in 10-33 Assist PC, there’s a very traumatic event that forms Mike’s the rest of his policing career. And for him to be able to walk away with that, just shrug it off, I think would’ve been a bit unreasonable. And then more and more things seem to happen, and he responds in the only way he knows, which unfortunately isn’t the healthiest way. And then it also gave me an opportunity to discuss mental health, mental health in frontline officers, in first responders. And it just sort of opened up a whole world. In a place I didn’t think the character was going to go.

Debbi Mack (10:22): Yeah, they tell you where to go eventually.

Desmond Ryan (10:27): Yes.

Debbi Mack (10:29): They take on a life of their own. What do you think people get wrong and writers in particular get wrong about police?

Desmond Ryan (10:44): I think it is that sense that they’re tremendously troubled individuals or that they’re perfect when in fact, we’re just regular people that do a unique job. Like being a surgeon is a unique job. Being a mortician is a unique job. There’s a very different skillset. I think oftentimes, having said that, writers can sometimes write their characters as a little bit one-dimensional in terms of, yes, policing is a very involved occupation, and when you’re in it, you are in it, but there’s other things happening in the individual officer’s lives that if the writer can do it and sort of put a little bit of that in, I think that’ll add a little more authenticity to the character.

Debbi Mack (11:47): Yes, definitely. What prompted you to write a series versus standalones? I’ve noticed people tend to have a preference for one or the other.

Desmond Ryan (11:58): I just thought that it’s one of those things like once the ball gets going, originally I actually set it up as a five, but then became a six book story arc because I wanted to tell this long story, but I also wanted to talk about individual homicide investigations, and I didn’t want to end up writing 400,000-word book. And as a writer, I just thought it was easier in terms of world building because once you create your characters, once you create the world, then in your next book you can advance the plot more, you can get more into the minutiae of investigations, you can do all of that. And I thought that made it easier for me. And as we were discussing with the film, it, it’s all magic. It’s all … fiction is all a suspension of belief, but once you establish where that suspension exists, then you can play around a lot in it. So that’s what made me want to do a series.

Debbi Mack (13:16): Yeah, yeah. It’s kind of nice to have a defined world so that you don’t have to keep building it each time. Just hint at it or whatever works.

Desmond Ryan (13:30): And I mean, now I’m working on the sixth book of the O’Shea series, and that’s the final book in the series. I set it up that way. And Debbi, I got to say, I am dogging it. I think, why is this so hard? It’s because I have been writing this series since 2014, and now it’s time to say goodbye, and I want to tie up all the loose ends and I want to do it right. And then that world ends.

Debbi Mack (14:03): Yeah. Yeah, it’s definitely, there’s a kind of a sadness that comes with the end. Yeah.

Desmond Ryan (14:10): Yeah. And it’s like it, we’re done. Goodnight, everybody.

Debbi Mack (14:14): Yeah, it’s been real.

Desmond Ryan (14:17): Exactly, exactly.

Debbi Mack (14:19): Do you plan to keep working on the other series?

Desmond Ryan (14:24): Yes, actually, and I have another series that’s unrelated to the Mike O’Shea characters also coming out also with Level Best Books, but with the Pint of Trouble, because what we’re talking about, the characters having their own lives, I put in the very first book, I put Mike O’Shea’s mother in Mary Margaret O’Shea as the typical Irish mother, and as a first generation immigrant from Ireland. She is more Irish than anybody in Ireland because she has manifested all of her Irish identity, and there’s no one to tell her that. That’s not really how it is. And I just put her in to lighten up the scene a little bit. But then she became a reader favorite. And by the third book, which is Man At the Door, I had to really stop her from taking off. She was just taking over more and more of the book.

(15:25): And I kept reminding myself, no, this is a police procedural. This is a Mike O’Shea book. And then what happened, Debbi was during 2020, right after we all got locked down, I thought, well, this will be a great time. I had … my marriage collapsed. I was living on my own, and I thought this would be a great time for me to finish off the Mike series and all that, but it got too dark. I couldn’t do it. And I thought, well, then I’ll just start with this Mary Margaret character and see what happens. And it’s a complete opposite. I mean, she’s mildly Machiavellian. She’s her own person. She marches to the beat of her own drum. The characters are fun. I used some of the same characters from the Michael O’Shea books, but writing them was tricky because in the Michael O’Shea books, they’re gritty. They’re in your books, and they use some swear words, a lot of swear words in the Mary Margarets, they don’t, and they’re softer. So it was really interesting balancing that out, and it was fun.

Debbi Mack (16:38): That is tricky.

Desmond Ryan (16:41): And so with the Mary Margarets, I’m now, the third one is coming out soon. A fourth one is in the works. I’m contracted for five of those, but I’m hoping to keep writing them just because she’s fun and the characters are fun. And the difference between a police procedural where you have to follow police procedures, you can’t make things up or you shouldn’t, versus a traditional or more cozy-ish crime fiction is that you don’t really have to follow the rules as long as your reader will believe what you’re telling them and will go along for the ride. You can do whatever you want. And so that’s a lot more fun.

Debbi Mack (17:27): Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Get away from all those rules. Yes. Let’s see. Well, you answered my question about what’s your plan as far as how many books you’re going to write in terms of Mike O’Shea anyway. What writing routine do you generally follow?

Desmond Ryan (17:50): Well, usually I find when I get up, I’m kind of at my best, not right away. I’m not at my best. When I right away get up, I’ll get up, poke around a bit, have a coffee, greet the day, and then I’ll say, okay, now it’s time to settle down. And I have the luxury of time, so I can sit and I can write for a couple of hours, and then I’ll get up and do something else and go for a walk, have some lunch, and then I’ll come back again, try, I write fairly quickly. And I think that’s a result of spending years writing police reports, which is basically writing short stories. So if you go out to 10 radio calls, you’re writing 10 short stories, and you’ve got to be good. It’s got to be fast. So that allows me to write quite a bit. And I find I have to write, I usually don’t write on weekends, but I have to write every day during the week or I’ll fall out of … fall out and I’ll, it’s hard to get back in step again.

Debbi Mack (19:01): Yeah, having a routine really, really helps. It’s just something to do.

Desmond Ryan (19:06): What’s your routine?

Debbi Mack (19:09): I tend to write in the morning, usually. That’s usually when I’m at my best. And then I’ll do anything else that needs to be done in the afternoon.

Desmond Ryan (19:20): Right. Yeah.

Debbi Mack (19:22): Mornings are for writing, afternoons for all the other stuff that has to get done, which is not inconsiderable at this point.

Desmond Ryan (19:30): And sometimes I’ll, even after dinner, I’ll think, well, I just want to touch this little piece up. But then before I know it, it’s like, oh my gosh, it’s 11.

Debbi Mack (19:41): Yeah, it’s amazing. My husband just doesn’t quite believe how wrapped up I get in writing something and it’s like, you didn’t notice that it was 5:30? I’m like, hey, I was in the middle of putting something together, that it just came and I just had to do it. And anyway, some people just don’t understand these things. They’re generally not writers. Yes. What authors have most inspired you as a writer? I think Joseph Wambaugh would be one,

Desmond Ryan (20:15): Probably. Yeah. Yes. And I’m just trying to think. I, well, I really liked, still like F. Scott Fitzgerald, Hemingway. I like that era of writing. I tend to be a very eclectic reader. I mean, I studied Dickens at university, and one of the things I think that’s, not that I’m remotely comparable to Dickens, but what I liked about his characters were no matter how small they were, they came complete as opposed to just there was someone with a black jacket walking by. There was a whole story about all of those characters. And that’s something that really impacted me. And I like to, again, I’m certainly not comparable, but I like to think when I’m writing a character, I want them to be a complete character as opposed to just some person in the hallway.

Debbi Mack (21:21): Interesting.

Desmond Ryan (21:22): I want to present, again, in presenting, I think what makes a story good is the authenticity of it, which again, provides is the depth of the people involved in it.

Debbi Mack (21:34): Yeah. Yeah, that’s a very good point, an excellent point. It’s amazing how some people can describe a character in a few lines, and you have real sense of who that person is.

Desmond Ryan (21:49): Yeah. Just a turn of phrase.

Debbi Mack (21:52): Exactly.

Desmond Ryan (21:53): Well, Debbi I used to work with, well in the same division as this traffic cop, and the way it was set up is there’s divisional officers who respond to the calls to service, and there’s traffic officers who do all the enforcement. They’re the ones that we don’t like. The ones that if you go through the stop sign, they stop you and they give you a summons and all of that, and this guy would go to court and it’s not an exciting thing. You ran the stop sign, whatever. He would tell a story that would have you on the edge of your seat for every single summons he wrote. It’s like, wow. It was riveting. I’m thinking, anybody else? The vehicle failed to stop at the white line. I observed them proceeding through this stop sign. I stopped them. This guy would tell it was fabulous, and I just thought, wow, that’s how to tell a story.

Debbi Mack (22:50): That’s it. You’re right. That’s it. If you can do that, you can do it.

Desmond Ryan (22:56): Yes.

Debbi Mack (22:58): What advice would you give to anyone who would like to make a living as a writer, have a writing career?

Desmond Ryan (23:06): Wow, that’s a great question. Well, I don’t think there’s a blueprint for it. I don’t think if you get a master’s in fine arts in writing, if that will guarantee you a job, like a career in writing. I mean, if you’re a journalist, it might if you’re a reporter, but in terms of being a novelist, I don’t think there’s a career path. I think though, what there is is just never giving up, is you just keep writing, keep, and sooner or later, hopefully someone will notice you that will move you up to the next level. And whether that moves you from the level of the only person who read your book was your mother, to now you’ve got a community reading your books to now you’ve got strangers buying your books to now you are in stores to now whatever your goal is. But it’s to never stop writing and never stop producing, because I think for a lot of people, it’s, as you know, writing is hard work. It’s wonderful. It’s wonderful work, it’s fun, it’s exciting, it’s frustrating, annoying, and it’s lonely. It’s a lot of work by yourself. And Melodie Campbell, who’s an author here in Canada, she said she figures it takes about a thousand hours from the time you sit down and start your book until it’s published. And that’s a lot of time, but you just keep going. Keep going, because why wouldn’t you?

(24:56): So that would be my advice, and maybe it’ll happen to you. The first person who picks up your book will say, this is great. We’ll turn it into a movie, and my people will call your people tomorrow. But I don’t know of anybody that’s really happened to, but maybe that’s just the circles I travel in.

Debbi Mack (25:13): Who knows how these things happen? Things happen for all sorts of reasons.

Desmond Ryan (25:18): And in a lot of cases, it’s to give us time to get better at what we do, because the more you write, the better you get. Someone else was saying that never publish your first book, put it away, and because you’re not as good as you think you are.

Debbi Mack (25:40): Yes, that’s absolutely true,

Desmond Ryan (25:44): And that’s your calling card. So put it away, and then maybe after you’ve written and publishers picked you up, then you can pull it out again and dust it off, and try not to be too embarrassed that you thought it was great, but realize how much better you’ve gotten.

Debbi Mack (26:00): That’s an excellent point. Thank you for saying that, because a lot of people don’t really quite realize, I know the first time I wrote a novel, it was hard. That first novel is the hardest, but once you’ve done one, you can do it again. It’s just a matter of keep practicing, keep at it, and take advice from the right people in terms of get with a writer’s group or something, someplace where you can get constructive criticism and really take it

Desmond Ryan (26:33): And realize that rejection isn’t, it’s nothing personal.

Debbi Mack (26:38): It’s not the end of the world. It’s nothing personal.

Desmond Ryan (26:41): It’s a business. And just because that person doesn’t like the book doesn’t mean somebody else. And I mean, chances are there’s somebody out there who’s going to like your book.

Debbi Mack (26:54): Exactly. Right.

Desmond Ryan (26:56): Maybe it’s just not the person that you think will, or the agent you think should be representing you, but just keep going. Somebody will find you.

Debbi Mack (27:07): Yep. Great advice. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Desmond Ryan (27:14): No. I mean, I just hope that your listeners who are writers keep writing. The other thing is we all have stories to tell, and I think it’s really important that they get out there as opposed to people saying, well, oh, I never really told this story because I didn’t think. It’s like, it’s a great story. Tell it and find a way to tell it. And whether it’s through writing, whether it’s through film, whether it’s through visual art, you’ve got a story to tell. Tell the story.

Debbi Mack (27:50): Great advice. Thank you so much. Thank you for being here today.

Desmond Ryan (27:54): Oh, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Debbi Mack (27:58): It was my pleasure to have you on, and thank you. Thanks. Also to everyone listening, especially my Patreon supporters and Substack subscribers. Thank you so much. The Crime Cafe monthly magazine should be out for September by now, by the time this gets up. So look for the one for October. Each issue of the magazine has a listring of new releases, as well as book reviews, podcast episodes, and more, especially if you’re a paid subscriber. I tried to add a lot of extras in there, a few extras where I can squeeze them out. In any case, until next time when my guest will be Amanda DuBois, take care and happy reading. Be seeing you.

Check out our ad-free episodes and bonuses for patrons here!

View Details

My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with thriller author Christina Kovac.

Get the ~~bird’s eye lowdown~~ ~~scoop~~ inside story about her latest novel, Watch Us Fall!

For a copy of the transcript, click here.

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest this week worked in television news covering crime and politics at Fox Five’s 10 o’clock news in Washington DC. She went on to become a news producer and desk editor at the Washington Bureau of NBC News. She now writes psychological suspense thrillers set in DC. DC is one of my favorite places to talk about since I live near DC and worked in DC and well, I feel like a DC native almost. Her latest novel coming out in December is called Watch Us Fall. It’s my pleasure to have with me. Christina Kovac. Hi, Christina. How are you doing today?

Christina (01:36): I’m doing great. Thanks for having me.

Debbi (01:38): It’s my pleasure to have you on. Believe me, I’m always interested in talking to journalists and former journalists because you guys have such a difficult job. I mean, I know once upon the time I aspired to be a journalist, did freelance writing for a bit, but anyway, but I am intrigued by the description of your latest novel, which Alafair Burke described as, and I quote, “an insightful look at the complex dynamics of close female friendships and the lingering effects of trauma.” Wow. Tell us more about what inspired you to create the story.

Christina (02:19): I started writing in the beginning, or I think it was in the beginning of the end of the pandemic, and a lot of people around me were coming out of the pandemic. It felt sort of traumatized. I think we all came out of our houses sort of stumbling. I don’t know how to act anymore. I don’t know how to with my friends anymore. I don’t know how to hug people anymore. And it really struck me that being alone, being away from each other felt like a traumatic experience. I wasn’t writing out of my own experience. But then I started thinking about what must that be like to have a kind of traumatic experience and then finally find a bunch of friends that you just want to hold onto and that you build this life around. And that was what these four female characters did.

(03:30): They met in college. They’re Addie, Lucy, Penelope, and Estella, and they met at Georgetown and they became fast friends, and they were actually, when I was writing, I imagined that they started college during the pandemic like my daughter did, which was really a traumatic experience. They were stuck in their dorms. It was just a really horrible thing. They didn’t get to know each other, but what they did was they kind of hung out, the group in their little quad. They hung out very tightly together, and they became just kind of forever friends. And so I thought that was really interesting. I wasn’t writing out of my own traumatic experience, I will be honest. But at the time that I was writing, I was also very interested in the fact that misinformation had taken off.

(04:25): A lot of people were listening to lies on the Internet about COVID and all the rest of things, and I wondered why they were so open to things that were obvious lies and misinformation. And I started to wonder if there was a connection between being alone in COVID and feeling kind of traumatized by that and believing things that were the exact opposite of what their doctors were telling them and what made absolutely no sense to any sensible human being. Basically, why you would believe a lie. And that was really the beginning of my thinking about these people. So it’s a bunch of disparate strands, strands, excuse me. It started in one place. It moved all over the place. That’s kind of how I write. I don’t know why. I wish I could just pick a lane and ride down the highway, but that’s just not really how I roll.

Debbi (05:19): Yeah, yeah, I can appreciate that. It’s funny how when you’re writing, sometimes ideas come and stuff that you thought you were going to do change.

Christina (05:30): But the beginning idea to take these four best friends in college and have them living a post-grad life in Georgetown, that was kind of always there. I was thinking a lot about how I miss my friends during the lockdown. I really miss the kind of hugging and the whispering, the drinking together and just handing a book off and saying, Hey, this is, and so I really had this feeling of just really intense loneliness that I wanted to write about four friends who would just do anything for each other and who would protect each other no matter what. And that was actually the seed of it all, and I think it stemmed from loneliness, from the pandemic.

Debbi (06:26): Yeah, I can definitely believe that. It’s very interesting. Yeah. What sort of writing schedule do you keep?

Christina (06:35): I write first thing in the morning.

Debbi (06:37): First thing in the morning.

Christina (06:38): I’ve trained myself. I used to be, when I worked in news, I worked nights. I did nightly news for, I worked in the Washington Bureau of NBC News and my shift was three o’clock in the afternoon, cover nightly news, and then do whatever The Today Show needed and then leave at 11. So that was kind of my thing, and I thought, I want my new life after I left TV to be very, very different from my writing life. So it’s like, okay, we’re just going to have to get used to being alone, not in a newsroom. We’re going to have to get used to sitting in your office in this mess of an office all by yourself. So I just set my alarm every day for six o’clock. I get up and I make coffee. I sit at my desk, my cat starts meowing. That is occasionally annoying, but I try and write as long as I can.

Debbi (07:35): Morning writer. Yeah, I am with you there. I like writing in the morning. It’s just really weird. At one point, the afternoons were always better for me. Then suddenly it’s switched to morning. Like, it’s kind of like brushing your teeth. It’s kind of like that habit that you form and you just kind of keep at it because really you got to do it. You got to get those words out there.

Christina (08:00): And also the thing that I really got used to that I love so much is I make this huge pot of coffee, and then I just sit there and I just slam coffee and write and next thing I know, I am so caffeinated. I’m like, okay, now I have to get up and get away from the desk and go for a walk and hopefully come back.

Debbi (08:21): Oh, yeah, walking is important. I have learned that. Get up and walk away now. And then, what was it that made you choose to do standalone thrillers as opposed to say a series?

Christina (08:35): My first book, The Cutaway, actually could have been a thriller, and I thought about it, I’m sorry, could have been a series. And I actually thought about it because I thought Virginia was the main character, and I thought she was a really good character and she could carry it. I thought she could carry probably a trilogy. A lot of things happened after the contract that just made that sort of insupportable. I thought, I actually probably need to do standalones. My editor for one, was really interested in doing a different kind of novel, so you kind of get stuck a little bit with that.

I also was really obsessed with this idea of these four women living together and what their lives are like. And so I lost, I think the thing is you can only write what you’re really obsessed with, and I really became obsessed with this female friendship thing, the dangers of being a woman, the dangers of walking around in a female body. And that was very different than the kind of novel that I was writing in the cutaway. So I talked to my agent about it and I said, I have this really kind of feel for this different novel that I’d like to do. And he said, I just think it sounds great. Let’s do it.

Debbi (10:04): Yeah. You really do have to feel, I guess, almost passionate, I guess the word is the only word I can think of about what it is you’re writing about.

Christina (10:15): Because you’re getting up every day to write about it. I mean, it’s every day for a year.

Debbi (10:20): It’s a commitment. It’s a commitment of time, commitment of effort. Were you still in journalism when you started writing fiction?

Christina (10:30): Yeah.

Debbi (10:34): That must have been tricky.

Christina (10:35): Yeah. I’m trying to remember exactly when I left. My husband and I, we have two kids. And he’s also in journalism. He, he’s a broadcast engineer, and we were really struggling with the idea of how to work our schedules around our family. It was just really a problem. And I had always loved, I was an English major and I had a dual major. I was English and journalism, and I had always loved this idea of working in the literary world, writing fiction. I really loved the scope of a novel.

One of the most frustrating things that I found in TV was, your story is basically 30 seconds or a minute, and you cannot get into the answers to questions that you need answered. You can barely get into who, what, don’t even think about why. And to me, that’s the most important thing there is why do people do this? What are the things in their world that are pressuring them? What makes a criminal? Are they born? What did they encounter in their world that made them this way? And journalism can’t answer any of that. Or at least not TV.

(11:56): Long form journalism is different, of course, I’m not. But a novel is where you get into the heart of people and into the mind of people. So I wanted to do that. So I said to my husband, look, we’re really struggling with this family-work dynamic, balancing things. I mean, I think that we’re doing okay. What if I just left TV and wrote a novel? And he said, well, do whatever you want. And in the back of my mind, I thought, how hard can writing a novel be? Oh my God, it’s hilariously. It was so hard. And then publishing it is insane and every step of the way is just so, I was completely naive. And maybe a little stupid, but I was also lucky to be so stupid.

Debbi (12:42): I think most of us come into this naive, to some extent. I was fortunate or unfortunate enough to have a father who was a failed playwright. So I came into writing knowing there’s no money in this. If there is, you’re lucky. So when I started out, I was a freelance writer, and it was like, Ooh, to get paid to write, this is awesome. But that’s my story. That’s part of it, anyway. So based on your previous interview that I was reading, it sounds like you’re kind of hybrid pantser and plotter in the sense that you kind of get everything out, find the ending and look for the plot points in the middle. Does that sound about right?

Christina (13:33): You know what, yes, but the book that I’m writing now, my Book Three, my work-in-progress, I did a lot more planning. I really learned my lesson.

Debbi (13:48): Oh, yeah. I tell you. Yeah.

Christina (13:51): How is pantsing painful when things aren’t working. I mean, how lucky I got The Cutaway, that things just kind of fell into place. This book was a lot more difficult. Things did not fall into place. These characters were sometimes really fought me, and I think it was that I just didn’t have them right. And I think if I would’ve spent a lot more time preparing the work that I’m doing now, it’s very much a lot more planning. It’s a lot more thinking ahead of time about what I’m going to do. I’m also not under a deadline, so that makes things a lot less stressful. I think going forward, I would like to be more of a planner slash planner slash pantser. Yeah. A little of both.

Debbi (14:39): Planner slash pantser.

Christina (14:40): A little of both.

Debbi (14:43): Yeah, I do a little of both myself. I’m always looking for the plot points to get me to an ending I usually have kind of an ending in mind. And I have a general idea of the general area, the local area of where I want to go, even if it’s not exactly what happens, I want to have some idea of how the protagonist ends up at the end, the sleuth, as it were. So yeah, it’s interesting how I’ve gotten away from careful plotting and gotten more into this kind of flow plotting.

Christina (15:24): I love that.

Debbi (15:24): It’s about the characters, ultimately. It’s like, what are the characters telling you to do? So among other things, I noticed you described the DC area as—I love this—beautiful and misunderstood. I love the part where you said it’s misunderstood. I can see the beauty, but you can tell me, what do you think is beautiful and misunderstood about DC?

Christina (15:54): We all know the big white buildings shining along the river. We all know the Washington Monument and the Kennedy Center and all the glitz of the federal section downtown. I think a lot of times people think it’s just that, or they have a memory of going to the Air and Space Museum, and they have this idea that DC is a kind of way. And a lot of the people that are down there that work down there aren’t even DC residents. A lot of them are commuters. A lot of them are sent here, obviously by voters from far places. The District of Columbia is itself such a vibrant, exciting, strong network of neighborhoods that have a culture that is not known by a lot of people across. So whenever you hear things, when I say misunderstood, I so often hear well in Washington DC and what people are talking about, I think is a political system that yes, I mean, that’s the big business down there, right?

(17:13): I mean, there’s the State Department, there’s a Department of Labor. There is, I mean, it’s a huge thing in the middle of Washington DC, but the people in the neighborhoods are very different than that. They are, to me, some of the nicest, some of the most talented, some of the most interesting people. They’ve moved here from all over. A lot of them, some of them have been here five generations. Some of them came up during the Civil Rights Movement. They love their city. They contribute. They pay a lot of taxes, and they contribute a lot of talent. In DC you’ll get go-go, you’ll get great music, you’ll get great restaurants, you’ll get great theater. It is, and yet, and the thing that people don’t understand is really how small it is though, in a lot of ways. All these neighborhoods, they intersect against each other.

(18:18): Capitol Hill isn’t just politicians. Capitol Hill’s the largest neighborhood in Washington DC full of people who have lived there for some families for generations. And it’s a beautiful place for books. It has my favorite bookstore in the country on Capitol Hill. The parks are huge, and some of them are quite wild. Rock Creek Park, you can actually get lost in and C&O Canal, you can actually get hurt on. The Potomac River is no place to swim. I’m sorry. Don’t do it. So it’s not what you see on TV. It’s so much more complicated than that. The people are so lovely, and diverse, so diverse, and I was so lucky to have spent 17 years reporting their news.

Debbi (19:10): Yeah, when I moved to this, I had moved out of the area for a while. I was in high school here, moved out of the area for a bit, but came back ultimately because I thought it’d be a great place to be a journalist, which I didn’t end up doing. But still, it’s great place. What you’re saying is right. I mean, all those things are right, and getting an appreciation for DC as a city is something I always kind of champion. What authors do you like to read and draw inspiration from?

Christina (19:43): Oh my goodness. I probably read two, three books a week, so I’m going to leave people out. I was so thrilled to get, I specifically went and asked for all the blurbs on my book, and I chose the writers that I love, and they were so generous and kind.

(20:06): So I think I’ll talk about them first. Angie Kim is my favorite. Alair Burke, who you noted. Alex Finlay is a fantastic DC writer. And so Janelle Brown, she’s just, I’ve read every single one of her standalones since Watch Me Disappear, which was probably to me, one of the most interesting books I’ve read. I highly recommend it. It’s older now, but she never writes a bad book. They’re always wonderful. I mean, I could go on. Megan Abbott is an author that I loved that she’s the reason why I queried my agent, because I read that he was her agent. And so when I picked him because he loved Megan and then he loved me, and I was like, oh my God, I’m so thrilled with that. So I have a lot of loves. There’s so many talented writers out there, but I think those guys are all top tier.

Debbi (21:19): That’s fantastic. Yeah. Let’s see. I understand you’re working on a third novel now. I am. Can you give us a brief teaser as to what that would be about?

Christina (21:32): So there’s three women in this book. It’s set on Capitol Hill. Present Day. I can’t talk too much about it because I’m still working through some things that actually might change. But essentially what it is, two of the families are basically at war with each other. They do not like each other. They are not fans of each other. And the two women are mothers. And the question of the book is how do we protect our children? And they come into conflict over that. They both have children that went to the same school, both girls the same age, and something kind of terrible happens at the school. So it’s another psychological thriller. I’m doing third person though, with three characters, which has really been a stretch for me. But I love this one so much, and I have plotted it. I think I’ve planned it very well. I think. We’ll see.

Debbi (22:37): Well, good luck with that. I’m sure you’ll do great. What advice would you give to anyone interested in having a writing career?

Christina (22:51): I would say read everything that you can, but especially in the genre or type of book that you want to write. That’s the biggest thing. Start your writing practice early. Make it just a part of you. It’s like going to the gym, or if you’re an athlete going to the batting cage, you just go every day. You just do it every day. Support your local bookstores because they’re at the heart and blood of every author’s life. And without them, the literary world would be in trouble and be a good neighbor with other authors. When I asked for these amazing authors to read my book and blurb me, their generosity was astounding. So be generous. I hope to give back as much as I’ve been given, and I’ve been given so much, and I’m so lucky.

Debbi (23:45): Yeah. Yeah. That’s excellent. Excellent thoughts, especially about the bookstores especially. I love that. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Christina (23:59): No, I’m just so excited about this book. I am so hopeful for it, and it’s sort of three months away at this point that we’re recording. And I am just very, very happy. And I hope that people will love these four girls and the man that is a point of view character in it, his name is Josh. I just hope they’ll love him.

Debbi (24:27): Well, that’s awesome. And I wish you all the best with the book. And I love, by the way, I love the idea of group dynamics in a book or in a show, on a TV show that’s often just great. That’ll captivate me. The characters all interacting with each other, that kind of thing. So best of luck with that.

Christina (24:51): Thank you.

Debbi (24:52): And I want to thank you so much for being here today and spending time with us.

Christina (24:56): I’ve loved it. Thanks.

Debbi (24:57): Oh, well, thank you. And let’s see. I will replace myself. There. I’m on the screen now for those of you watching. Let’s see. I want to thank Christina again for being here. I’ll get that right someday, Christina. Okay. And we will do a short bonus episode for the Patreon supporters where we can talk journalism. Oh boy. Also, crime and politics, which used to be two different things.

Christina (25:31): Unfortunately. Yes. Although not too terribly. Trust me.

Debbi (25:35): I know. I mean, I did study history. I know that there were all sorts of corrupt administrations in the past, but this has just been a very bizarre time. It does kind of make you wonder if David Lynch is directing from somewhere up in heaven. I don’t know. In any case, thank you everyone for watching or listening. And my deepest thanks to my Patreon and Substack supporters. Thank you so much for your support. It helps. Until next time, when my guest will be Desmond Ryan. Take care. And happy reading.

For bonus episodes and other perks, become a Crime Cafe Patron!

View Details

The Crime Cafe once again is pleased to bring another episode from the annals of Old Time Radio! With one of my favorite protagonists–Philip Marlowe! With Gerald Mohr in the title role!

Get early access to ad-free episodes and bonuses, when you become a Patron!

View Details

My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with the spy thriller novelist, Howard Kaplan.

He has a fascinating story or two in him, for sure.

For a PDF copy of the transcript, click here.

Debbi (00:12): Hi everyone. My guest today has a most interesting background in international affairs. I would like to talk to him more about that, actually. Let’s just say his work was so interesting, he got picked up by the KGB and interrogated. Okay. A native of Los Angeles, he’s lived in Israel and traveled throughout Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt. He’s the author of the Jerusalem Spy Series, the latest of which is The Syrian Sunset. It’s my pleasure to have with me Howard Kaplan. Hi Howard. How are you doing today?

Howard (01:32): I’m doing fine, thank you.

Debbi (01:34): Excellent. Good, good. Your background is just fascinating. At the age of 21, you actually were sent on a mission to smuggle out of Russia, a Soviet dissident’s manuscript on microfilm to London?

Howard (01:47): Yes. I actually went to Russia twice to consecutive summers. It was right around my birthday’s in July, so I think it was one right before I was 21, and right around the time I was 22. And it was old school stuff. These were before the technology era where at that time the KGB had a single agent who monitored every Xerox machine in the Soviet Union. They could do that because it was a crime to have unemployment. So they gave everybody a job and they used to have something called Samizdat, which was self-published, where people would go into a typewriter and type a manuscript with onion skin, which is very thin paper and carbon paper. Most people don’t even know what these things are anymore.

Debbi: (02:51): I do.

Howard (02:52): And you would get several copies and they would be circulated underground. So I was not involved in how they transferred this manuscript to microfilm, however I was involved. When I met with them, I had, again, pre-digital age, lots of rolls of film in a camera bag, some exposed pictures I’d taken, some not. So we took a, this was prearranged, a fresh roll of film, slid open the box carefully so it could be reglued together, opened the Kodak yellow canister, removed the regular film, placed the microfilm in, taped a lead of film back in because they used to come with like six inches of film sticking out and glued the box together and threw it in the box. Wasn’t somebody, I thought it was a very good idea and it was unchallenged on the way out.

Debbi (04:00): And it was much less conspicuous than a pumpkin.Howard (04:06): So I was bold and I thought, oh, this is easy. I can go back every year and do this kind of thing. And that turned out to be misconstrued because I went back the next year and I got arrested for meeting with dissidents. But fortunately, I’d actually transferred a different manuscript to the Dutch Embassy at that time because again, they’re KGB agents. They would stand outside a little phone booth like a London booth, and Russians couldn’t enter a foreign embassy. But when I was arrested, I didn’t have anything incriminating on me, and they didn’t know actually about any of these prior events. They didn’t even know I’d been in Russia the year before. I had a new passport, still with my name, and they were just picking me up for meeting with dissidents, with people protesting the government.(05:06): And so they interrogated me for a few days. It was generally polite. Interestingly, in Moscow, the Russians have a great interest in Jack London, in the writer, I think because the Canadian Arctic, if that’s a proper term, is reminiscent of the Soviet North, the Russian North and Siberia. And so they’re very akin to his writings. He’s one of the writers that’s most sought after in Russia. Now they can get books. It’s a different world. And they asked me a lot about Jack London novels, and I wondered if this was for a long time, meaning years. I wondered was this surreptitious? Were they trying to get me—this one interrogator who spoke perfect American English. Was he trying to relax me, so I gave up anything? But I concluded, I just read it in a novel, in one of the Martin Cruz Smith novels. Again about Jack London, the Gorky Park writer, and I concluded they just wanted to know about Jack London, and we had a lot of time because I wasn’t going anywhere.

Debbi (06:26): That’s fascinating. That really is. Let’s see. Tell us about the Jerusalem Spy series and what inspired you to write it.

Howard (06:36): I did my junior abroad in Jerusalem. I got wedded for a taste of traveling, and then I had these, I went to the Arab countries rather than study for finals. Those days, again, I keep talking about like I’m old, but my son’s getting married next week, so maybe I am a little bit, where security was less concerned. I was able to go to Cyprus to the American Embassy, and they issued me a new passport on the spot as long as I gave them my old passport, which had Israeli stamps in it for them to hold in the safe in the embassy in Nicosia. So for a number of years I had two active passports and it wasn’t terribly special, but they only allowed me to have one in my possession. And I went to Lebanon the first time from Cyprus, and then I went to Syria, which became a passion of mine in my life. Up to this day, I’m helping Syrian refugees who’ve come to Los Angeles with adjusting, sometimes aiding them with financial for legal issues. Often they’re about divorce and not about asylum and visas. So I wrote these five books. I think there are five. There’s one that’s not republished, so I’m always confused how many I have. You have to find it online.Debbi (08:30): I understand.

Howard (08:30): It’s an old hardcover edition, it’s not digital. About sort of moral ambiguity, gray issues I can say now because it’s a current time in the Middle East. My parents were Holocaust survivors. My father lost his entire family in Poland. My mother was in Auschwitz. These things affected me and affected me maybe in a way that’s popular with some and unpopular with others. I’m very unhappy, which is an understatement to see what Israel is doing in Gaza, starving people. My mother, illustrative of this point, she was a very attractive woman, Hungarian, blue-eyed blonde, and her identity was very much centered on her looks. That’s what she cared about. And so she always was slim and whatever well about in her mid-eighties, early eighties, she got dementia and the first thing she said was—not the first thing, but very quickly—she said, I didn’t eat for a year. I’m going to eat. Because she was referring to so many decades earlier to not being able to eat in Auschwitz. And she blew up about 60 pounds before everybody got a sort of control.

(10:03): She was still cooking then. Then later, she was put under a more restrictive diet. But for me to see Israelis, Jews starving a population in the way my mother and her family and my father’s family, most of them died in Auschwitz too, is a shocking experience for me and incomprehensible and an unacceptable and an unforgiving experience. So I’ve been writing about the conundrum of these areas. I’ve written a lot, as I said about Syria, and even now we have my Syrian friends tell me my latest book, The Syrian Sunset deals with the period of Bashar al-Assad and chemical weapons. Now, there’s been a new regime come in, and I have scenes in the novel about Sednaya Prison, which was an awful place in some detail. And the prison has been liberated for the first time in decades, and everybody’s out, it’s closed and the horrors revealed.

(11:20): However, the new government in Syria is greatly fundamentalist. They want women to ride in the back of the bus separately. They’ve closed the great music school in Aleppo in northern Syria because music distracts from piety and study of religion in Islam for fundamentalists, not for your average wonderful Muslim, but for these fundamentalists. So now you have more ambiguity. You have people who threw out the murderous Bashar, but they’re suppressing women’s rights, killing in their own right, and they want to stop co-ed education. And as his friend of mine said, even in Tehran in Iran at the university, men and women study together, but in Syria, they want to stop it. So these are the kinds of things I’m writing about in the series of novels, historical novels.

Debbi (12:21): Well, these are very, very timely and important topics. I’m really glad you’re doing this. I noticed you’re on a website called We Are Not Numbers. As a big fan of the old TV show, The Prisoner, I couldn’t help but be intrigued by that particular line.

Howard (12:45): I don’t remember how I got started with them even. It’s been a few years, it’s not happening now because of the war in Gaza. But before this last war, this group, I used to mentor writers in the Gaza Strip via Zoom and Facebook with their stories, which were invariably autobiographical.

(13:14): And their line was, we are people, we are not numbers. And one in particular that I’ve talked about and written about, a young woman’s story, and I had mostly women. I had all women in fact, because for some reason the men weren’t doing it. The women, maybe they felt more open, maybe they felt freer, maybe they weren’t worried about saving face. But she talks about her really close friend who got very ill, couldn’t be accommodated in the hospitals in Gaza. So she got flown to Jerusalem to attend, to be taken care of in the Israeli Hadassah hospital, and she got to walk around and see the city. And the author who’s writing this autobiographical story is talking about how her whole life, she lives in this strip of 25 by five miles and she’s never been out and she’s not allowed to leave. It’s blockaded by Egypt on the south and by Israel on the north and on the seas by the Israelis. And she says she wished she could get deathly ill so that she could be taken to Jerusalem and see this wonderful city that’s her homeland, also. And I find as often happens, sometimes real life is more powerful and even what you can make up, but I can steal these experiences somehow and recraft them into fiction. But that was the most moving story that I had from working with these people in We Are Not Numbers.

Debbi (14:58): Oh my gosh, that really is, that’s something else. Would you consider yourself to be a spy novelist? How do you describe your writing to others?

Howard (15:10): I think I do in the way that le Carré is a spy novelist. I did have these experiences when I was young and I got connected with several espionage organizations and also just as a thriller writer in general. I’m not a crime writer. These are not mysteries in terms of, as I mentioned, the Martin Cruz Smith books, which I’ve been reading a few of them recently. They’re really international thrillers and spy novels.

Debbi (15:53): Yes. Yeah. What kind of writing schedule do you keep?

Howard (15:59): I’m a morning person altogether, and it seems, it’s funny, I was talking, I was at a chiropractor today and he was early and I was early. It was an eight o’clock appointment. We were both there at 10 of, and he started telling me about how his father was always early to everything. And I said, my father was always early to everything. So I think these are learned behaviors. I don’t think they’re genetic, but he said to me, that was a wonderful line. He asked his father, why do we always show up early? His father said, so we can relax. And I thought that was just precious because I have the same mania. But the truth is, if you arrive casually and you go relaxed and you get there at a reasonable time, you’re relaxed the whole time. You don’t have to rush maniacally to get there early in order to relax. So again. Yeah, these are things that interest me as a writer. So when I heard that, I thought, that’s just fabulous.

Debbi (17:05): That’s a great character point right there. Yeah, I really liked it. I hustled to get there so I could relax. Yes. That’s awesome. Let’s see. What writers have most inspired your work?

Howard (17:21): Le Carré I think in terms of quality, and there’s an Americans spy novelist, it’s unclear to me how well known he is. I read a lot of the Graham Greene books when I was younger. They were of great merit. But there’s an American writer who died only recently, had a very, very long career. His name is Charles McCarry, and he wrote a six to 10 novels. I don’t remember exactly how many, about an American CIA agent called Christopher. His first name was Christopher, and those are, I looked for really good writing. I met Clive Cussler at an event once, and he was just the most sweetest man around. We corresponded. He used to hand write me notes on his stationary, but he didn’t have the literary prose of these other two people, which I think inspired me more than anybody else.

Debbi (18:28): Wow. Yeah. Those are good people to be inspired by. Let’s see, one of your books, The Damascus Cover was made into a feature film. I happened across a podcast where you were talking to somebody about that, let’s see, the podcast was called Follow Your Dream?

Howard (18:51): I dunno. I’ve done a few podcasts. I did real live interviews before there were podcasts. The movie was filmed, the book was filmed years after the novel came out, A director came across it through a friend, who had read it?

Debbi (19:12): The story. Tell the story about that.

Howard (19:13): And said, I want to do this. He said, I think I can get financing. And I met him for coffee and I said, okay, we did a little deal. I signed it. He brought papers, and in actuality, it took 10 years for him to get the financing. And one time he called me up and said, come meet me. I have some news. We to meet a Peet’s Coffee at Beverly Hills, which is no longer there. It’s a victim of the pandemic. It’s now a hair salon or something. That’s the new world. And he said, I need to renew the option of the agreement one more time,

(19:58): Because it expired in July. It was like May. And he says, we’re going to start shooting in October. So some of my Hollywood friends said, well, you ought hold him up for more money now. And I said, I don’t do that. This guy’s been working for 10 years to get this done. It’s incredibly hard thing to do. I’ll extend it for a hundred dollars because I’m interested in the film getting made, not in five figures or whatever it might have been. And he got the film made with some very well established stars. I remember Jonathan Rhys Meyers stars in it. I get my son’s on my mind. I just saw him yesterday and the wedding is this coming weekend. And I remember telling him, we had Jonathan Rhys Meyers, and he said, are you sure? Because it seemed somewhat improbable. And then they got Sir John Hurt to come and a really highly talented indie woman actress Olivia Thirlby, who appears in a good number of things. First thing comes to mind, she was the sidekick in Juno many years ago as a teenager.

Debbi (21:08): Oh, my gosh. Wow.

Howard (21:09): That was her opening and she was in the, well, she’s been in a number of things, Dredd. And she’s actually, I shouldn’t say this, but John Hurt has passed, so I can say it. I think she’s the best of all of the stars in the film.

Debbi (21:28): Oh my gosh.

Howard (21:29): I think she outs shines the bigger men who have bigger.

Debbi (21:34): Oh my goodness. Well, that’s awesome.

Howard (21:37): It’s free on Tubi. It moved around. It’s been on everything. It used to be on Prime. It used to be on Hulu, and now it’s rentable for those things. But it’s free on Tubi with obviously commercials. That’s how that,

Debbi (21:53): That’s awesome. Well, that’s great. I love that you took the long view in terms of paying the producer or actually the director, I should say, in terms of the option, because—

Howard (22:06): He stuck to it. He really,—

Debbi (22:07): That’s money that you saved him that can go to those actors.

Howard (22:11): Well, and that it just—

Debbi (22:12): That’s important.

Howard (22:13): It also kept good relations. He didn’t feel like I was holding him up because I could.

Debbi (22:19): Exactly, exactly. And so much of this depends on relationships and trust.

Howard (22:25): I think so. And we’re still on good terms. He calls me periodically.

Debbi (22:29): That’s right, that’s right. That’s exactly right. I think that’s a very smart move.

Howard (22:32): One of the distributors, I think the international distributor got bought out by a bigger company recently. So he said we might have some additional areas where we didn’t sell, where it can be distributed now because they have a little more clout. And sometimes what they do, the film is 2018, so it’s not a new film. They package them with a number of slightly older films and then hand them to Denmark. So you can buy this. So there’s not much money in it, but there’s a little bit, and then it’s out there.

Debbi (23:06): There you go. There you go. And this director now has an additional credit. As I understand it, he had only directed one film before this.

Howard (23:15): Yes. And he made a horror film.

Debbi (23:17): Was it a short or a feature?

Howard (23:19): I haven’t seen it. I think it was a full length horror feature, like shot in the Philippines, something like that.

Debbi (23:24): Okay, cool. Well that is really cool. That was cool for you and for that director.

Howard (23:30): Yes, certainly a win.

Debbi (23:32): It was a win-win.

Howard (23:33): And I have to say this, I’m divorced. I mentioned my son, but ever since the film came out, my dating life’s exponentially better. People look up, they say, you have a film. I mean, it’s ridiculous. I’m still the same person, but—

Debbi (23:48): That’s funny. Yeah, I know. I know what you mean.

Howard (23:50): But, really, it’s just … often the first question people want to ask me.

Debbi (23:56): It’s very interesting, especially the rather lucky kind of way that your friend happened to know somebody who’s a director who wanted to go a bit farther with that. Were you involved in adapting the novel? I mean, adapting.

Howard (24:13): I wasn’t involved in the screenplay, but once they shot, I was involved. They asked my opinion on the editing. And I was actually quite involved on the editing, but not on the original adaptation. The director did it. He bought, this was his project to write the script and to direct it and raised the money. So it was one of those kind of.

Debbi (24:42): It’s tough.

Howard (24:43): Yes.

Debbi (24:44): You have to find somebody who really believes.

Howard (24:46): Right. And it’s really all about money. Because you can hire people.

Debbi (24:49): That’s it That’s it.

Howard (24:50): If you have the money, and for example, this film shoot was two months. So there are a lot of actors who work for two months, if they have a window rather than just sit around. So it’s possible to get people, and I think John Hurt came on for five days, also serendipity. How did they get John Hurt? Sir John Hurt the great? He had a house in Morocco and they were shooting in Casablanca, Morocco. So he told the director, I’ll come for a week. You have to do all my scenes, and at five o’clock on Friday, I’m leaving. So you better be done.

Debbi (25:31): Oh yeah. Yeah.

Howard (25:32): And they were, he did. I wasn’t there. I didn’t meet him, but.

Debbi (25:39): Well, that’s all of the stuff that goes into movie making and there’s so much, it’s really just a complex “takes a village” process. But what advice would you give to anyone who would like to write for a living?

Howard (26:00): Twofold. One is perseverance, and the other is equally practical. And that is find an additional revenue stream to make money so that you’re not under the pressure, the gun of having to support yourself exclusively from writing, which may or may not happen. Stock market, Instagram influencer, A lot of women can make particularly a lot of money doing that. I think you need to be practical in that sense. And the others just persevere. Again, I heard a story today about a woman who self-published young adult fiction. Then she kept going. She got a small publisher for her second book, and she’s a TikTok influencer. She has a following on TikTok. She’s 20 something and she’s now getting a deal with Harper. They’re talking to her about a deal. Her books are well received. So that’s exactly what I mean, persevere. I don’t know if she was young, if her family was helping her financially, that counts as a revenue stream as far as I’m concerned. If you have parents who want to contribute to that for a period of time, they’re not going to do it forever. But I think there’s no reason to say you have to do this on your own. But I think those are the twin things. You need to work hard and persevere, and you need to prepare for earning a living if it doesn’t work in that direction.

Debbi (27:53): Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Howard (27:57): We hear the stories, I find it kind of annoying the story of the actor, Jon Hamm, for example, who struggled and struggled and struggled for 10 years or whatever, didn’t make it, couldn’t do anything, was presumably dirt poor and then became a global star. And the subtext seems to be, if you keep at it, that can happen to you too. But the truth is, for every person like that, there’s a million who don’t make it or pick your number, 500,000, 200,000. Working and persevering is not a guarantee, is not even maybe a likelihood. It’s a passion. So when I hear people use something like that as an illustration of how you should persevere, as I say, I get annoyed. I think it’s not, he’s the way, outlier exception. Many more people have fallen by the wayside and succumb to their parents telling them to go to law school.

Debbi (29:16): And invariably, the way they made it will be different from the way somebody else made it. It’s just you find your opportunities, you take advantage. That’s what it kind of comes down to.

Howard (29:31): Yes, there’s always, I think it’s a small cliche that it’s skill and luck together. And I’ve had a lot of lucky breaks and a lot of unlucky breaks. For example, The Damascus Cover, when it first came out, the editor, he handled it well. He sent the book out to all the paperback houses then without, not an auction, without a bid, without a price, and said, what do you think? And they all came back and said they wanted it. It was a kind of really 10 out of 10. And there was one company that bid a certain amount, $75,000 I think was the high. They just came in and said, we’ll give you 75. So they held a party, which in other words, an auction. And they wanted Bantam Books, which was the big paperback house at the time to go. And the editor-in-chief, whose name is Mark Jaffe, wanted to go to a hundred, but his underlings said no, and they didn’t. And there was a difference between the 75 and a hundred, because when they pay a hundred, it’s a much bigger book in terms of what they promote. So I did fabulously well, but I missed that last leg. And then many years later, the book got filmed anyway and got a big audio book contract because of the film. So it just kind of wanders around like that.

Debbi (30:56): That’s right. Just never know. Nobody knows anything. As William Goldman once said, just never know. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Howard (31:14): I’d like communicating with readers. I’m on, the best place for me is really Facebook. You can find me. I have an author page under my name and a regular page. So I’m more than welcome. I’m more than inviting people, aspiring writers, people who’ve read the books and people haven’t read the books, whatever they want to do. That’s the best place for me. And I’m very, I have time, so I’m happy to answer email, not email, what do you call it? Instant messages and messages on Facebook. If I can be, as I say, I help certain people with certain things that’s sort of random, which I choose to do and which I choose not to do. So that would be about my only other invitation.

Debbi (32:08): Well, thank you so much for being here, Howard. I really appreciate your time and all you had to say.

Howard (32:14): Thank you for talking to me across the country.

Debbi (32:19): Well, it’s my pleasure. Believe me. Your story is just fascinating. What you’ve done, the work you’re doing is fantastic. I just want to say everyone listening, thank you so much. Thank you to my patrons on Patreon. I’m putting bonus episodes together as fast as I can, and I’ll have them for my patrons there. Patrons get bonus episodes and ad free episodes among other perks. So check out my Patreon page. Meanwhile, until next time, when my guest will be June Trop, take care and happy reading. Be seeing you.

Check out our Patreon page!

View Details

My guest this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is the award-winning author of the Detective Parrott and Quinn McFarland Mystery Series, Saralyn Richard!

Check out our discussion about her latest work, including the Quinn McFarland novels and a new historical novel in the works, inspired by her grandparents, about the 1900 Storm in Galveston, Texas.

Treat yourself to a PDF copy of the transcript.

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today is the award-winning author of the Detective Parrot Mysteries and the Quinn McFarland Mysteries, as well as other books. Her laudable goal is to change the world one book at a time, which I think is a great, great goal. It’s my pleasure to introduce today’s guest, Saralyn. Richard. Hi, Saralyn. How are you doing? It’s been a long time.

Saralyn (01:19): I’m good. It’s wonderful to be back with you, Debbi.

Debbi (01:23): It’s wonderful to have you on. Thank you. Before we delve into the world of Quinn McFarland, I have to ask about good old Detective Parrott. Do you plan to continue that series?

Saralyn (01:37): I do. I do.

Debbi (01:39): Awesome.

Saralyn (01:40): But I generally give him a rest and he gives me a rest after a book just to have some time to regroup and have some new things happen in his life. New things happen in my life. So I kind of alternate between Detective Parrott books and other books.

Debbi (02:04): That’s a great approach actually. That way you don’t get burnt on doing the same sort of thing. It adds a little variety.

Saralyn (02:14): And he doesn’t get burned with me asking a million questions. I like it when he comes to me and he whispers in my ear and I don’t have to beg and plead for, give me a new story.

Debbi (02:31): That’s great. I like that. That’s absolutely a wonderful approach. What inspired you to write about a woman who works in her family’s mortuary?

Saralyn (02:43): Well, Quinn is more than that. She works in that mortuary because she is kind of withdrawn from society. She had a very bad experience when she was young in high school, and she doesn’t really trust people. She really just kind of resorts to her family business, which happens to be a mortuary, and there she can be herself. She doesn’t have to worry because dead people don’t hurt you and they don’t talk about you and they don’t tell lies about you and things like that. So she’s gotten very comfortable in that life and in the first book, which was Bad Blood Sisters, she was just about to turn 30, and it was a big aha moment for her that life is passing her by and she’s not accomplishing any of her goals. Originally, she wanted to be in the medical profession, and she is an embalmer, so that is considered the medical profession, but she wanted to be on the living side of things, and she hasn’t done that.

(04:17): She hasn’t gotten married, she hasn’t had a family. She hasn’t really made friends since high school. And so she’s uncomfortable with the place that she’s in in her life, and boom, suddenly she’s thrown into solving a mystery and she becomes an amateur sleuth, and that’s Bad Blood Sisters. And by the end of Bad Blood Sisters, she is getting herself more on track. When the second book begins, which is Mrs. Oliver’s Twist, she has foresworn police matters and crime. She doesn’t want to have anything to do with that anymore, and she actually wants to leave the mortuary business and become a physician’s assistant. And she’s applied to that school and she’s about to get in and she’s feeling a little guilty that she’s leaving her family in the lurch, but she’s ready to move on and she’s promised, well, she’s now got a husband. That’s a bit of a spoiler, but she’s promised him and she’s promised her parents no more criminal activity, no more searching for perpetrators.

(05:41): And then suddenly she is thrown into another mystery because her very favorite teacher from high school who helped her get through that rough period in high school turns up dead, and she’s in the morgue and the police come to ask her to identify the body, and so she feels that she can’t turn her back on this woman who helped her so much. So she gets involved and that’s the second book. But to answer your question, the mortuary is really an important part of every community. The service that’s provided by the people who work there is so important, and it’s something that most people don’t want to have anything to do with because most people are uncomfortable about death. My experience, and I’ve interviewed a lot of people who work in funeral homes because I write mysteries, and so I have opportunity to talk to them. My experience is that they’re all very kind, very loving people who really want to take care of their customers, their clients, and Quinn is like that. And so I really wanted to shine a light on that industry a little bit, and it also is a perfect place to put somebody who’s going to get involved with crimes because dead people end up in mortuaries. So it all worked out.

Debbi (07:25): That’s true. That’s quite a concept too. I like the way you’ve set up that character with a backstory like that, and then the realization that, oops, life is passing by. I got to do something. How much research did you do on mortuaries or anything else in terms, when you wrote these novels?

Saralyn (07:50): I’m a big research person. It’s really one of my favorite parts of being an author because I love learning new things. I love meeting new people. I love interviewing them. I love going to see how things work. And so I did quite a bit of research and I’ve had lots of encounters with people in funeral homes, but because of the book, I’ve had to get pretty detailed. I’ve had to go through an autopsy, go through an embalming process, what does it look like? What does it smell like, what does the room look like? Because I want my book to be as authentic as possible. At the same time, I don’t want to gross out my readers and tell them more detail than they really need to know for the story. So there’s finding that right balance, but the research is a lot of fun, and I found almost everybody that I ever talked to, so willing to help and help with a book and be mentioned in a book or have their job mentioned in a book. They’re flattered and they’re very forthcoming with information, and that’s what I love about doing the research. It gives me an entree into a whole different world.

Debbi (09:32): It’s kind of the same impetus that a journalist would have, to find out more, to learn. Let’s see. Do you have an arc for this character? Do you have an endpoint in mind? I’m not saying you have to tell us what it is.

Saralyn (09:52): Yes and no. I have ideas about where she’s going to end up, but I’m a pantser. I’m really not a plotter. And I have experimented with being a plotter. I’ve listened to webinars by very famous writers who say, you must, you must outline.

Debbi (10:22): Banish that word from all this.

Saralyn (10:25): I tried. I’ve tried. I’ve tried to sit down and write an outline, but it frustrates me to do that because it takes away the creativity that is so much of the joy of writing. And I myself do not want to know the ending. When I start a book, I want to surprise myself. I want to entertain myself. I want to puzzle myself. I want to put myself in the role of a reader. I feel like if I’m writing with a lot of expectation and joy, then the reader is going to read it with that same emotion. Exactly. It gets across in the prose. So I really don’t plan too far ahead for my characters. I do have ideas, though.

Debbi (11:35): I myself have a tendency to plot things, but I don’t always end up following that thing that I wrote out ahead of time. It’s kind of like, I don’t know, after say the midpoint, anything could happen, really. I might end up in almost the same place that I had imagined at the beginning, but who knows?

(11:56): It just seems to be the right place to end it. Something like that. I don’t know what it is. It’s like a kind of a hybrid approach I want to plot, but I can’t do it completely. I can’t just write everything out.

Saralyn (12:10): Well, it’s like real life because you may have a plan for yourself, and something happens to hijack that plan that turns out to be even better than what you had planned. So in real life that happens. And in books, that happens too.

Debbi (12:33): Very true. Very true. What are you currently working on?

Saralyn (12:41): Well, I have to smile over this because when I was 15 years old, I wanted to write a book about Galveston, Texas during the 1900 Storm, which Galveston is my hometown. My grandparents were here for the 1900 Storm. I’ve always been fascinated by it. And at the time when I was 15, there wasn’t that much written about it. So I started doing research in the library. I researched for 10 years. I read everything that they had in the library about the 1900 Storm. I had extensive notes. I had my plot in mind. I had everything ready to go, but I didn’t write the book. I started writing the book in the 1980s on a Macintosh computer. Do you remember those, little screen?

Debbi (13:46): Oh, yeah.

Saralyn (13:49): And I had about a hundred pages written, and every time I sat down to write though, I had to reread what I had written. And pretty soon I was spending all my time reading and not having time to write. So I didn’t get that far into the book. And then that computer crashed, so I lost that manuscript, and that was my first manuscript. Well, in the meantime, many people have written books about the 1900 Storm and great books. So one of them is Isaac’s Storm, and one of them is The Promise by a friend of mine, Ann Weisgarber. And so I feel like a lot of books have been written about that time period, but not about the rebuilding of Galveston after the storm.

(14:41): And that’s really where my grandparents’ story takes place. Anyway, so I still hadn’t written it and hadn’t written it, and finally I decided, you know what? I’m going to write that book. It’s a departure for me. It’s not Detective Parrott. It’s not Quinn McFarland. It’s historical. It’s still mystery. It’s a historical mystery. It’s got a little bit of romance. It’s got a lot of suspense, a really fabulous setting, and I’m enjoying it so much. I’ve been doing a lot of really heavy research into the time period, and I’m learning just a million things, and I’m recreating these characters that are my grandparents, but I don’t really know for a fact that that’s what they were like. I’m creating them and I’m trying to be as careful as I can possibly be based on what I do know about ’em and what I have been told. And then the rest I’m just imagining. And I think it’s pretty fun. I’m just really enjoying it.

Debbi (16:05): Interesting. It’s like creative nonfiction in a way. Yeah. Interesting. Galveston is an interesting location. Is that why you decided to set your story there? Because that’s your hometown?

Saralyn (16:23): The Quinn McFarland books are set there, and there was a clamoring, A lot of my readers are from Galveston, and they were like, well, when are you going to write about Galveston? Because the Parrott books are in Brandywine Valley. And for a while, Parrott was toying with the idea of moving to Galveston in one of the books. But I did some research to see what it would take to bring him here, and it’s just not feasible. He would have to start all over again. He’s, he’s risen in the ranks where he is, and he would have to start all over again being a patrolman, nobody would do that. No. He’s not coming to Galveston, so.

Debbi (17:15): What a shame.

Saralyn (17:16): Yeah, but that’s okay because it made room for Quinn.

Debbi (17:20): That’s true. He could always take a busman’s holiday, find Quinn, and they could work together on something, or he could advise her on something. He could make a cameo appearance. I always think about these things, how to cross things over.

Saralyn (17:38): And that’s because our characters are so real to us.

Debbi (17:42): Yes, to us, yeah.

Saralyn (17:43): Really are real people,

Debbi (17:47): Really. I know they come to you and just, why aren’t you writing about me now? I hear from Sam. It’s like, I’m getting there. I’m getting there. What are you reading these days?

Saralyn (18:04): Well, I just finished …

Debbi (18:06): Other than Galveston stuff.

Saralyn (18:08): Just finished this book.

Debbi (18:09): Ah, The Quiet Librarian.

Saralyn (18:12): And it’s by Allen Eskens. And the reason that I chose that book was because I went to a webinar at which this author spoke on a panel, and he talked a little bit about The Quiet Librarian, and I was fascinated by it, and so I decided I was going to read that book.

Debbi (18:40): Well, your fascination has fascinated me, so now I have to check it out.

Saralyn (18:45): It’s a very interesting book, and it’s about Bosnia.

Debbi (18:48): Really?

Saralyn (18:48): And that’s something I didn’t know very much about

Debbi (18:56): Really. Yeah, neither do I. What is your biggest challenge when it comes to writing and how have you overcome it?

Saralyn (19:16): Well, a lot of people have asked me, why do you write mysteries? Because you’re such a refined ladylike person. You’re so kind. You wouldn’t kill anybody. And why are you writing books that have murders in them? And the truth is, I really abhor violence, and I don’t even like the sight of blood. It makes me faint, which is why I didn’t go into medicine. So I would say that killing characters or putting characters in dangerous, perilous situations where they’re hurt physically, emotionally hurt is hard for me because I love my characters and they are so real to me. And so when I make these awful things happen to them, I struggle with it. And sometimes I have to stop writing and give myself a pretty long break because of that. That’s the big challenge, and that’s what I do, is give myself a break. And sometimes I’ll write something completely different, something lighthearted, something a little romantic or something just to divert me from those unsavory things that happen in mysteries. But I really love mysteries, so I always go back to them. I just don’t like the violent parts, and I try not to have a lot of violence. My mysteries are not very gritty, but still, it’s hard for me to kill off a character.

Debbi (21:18): Oh, same here. And I know if I read, if I’m in a series, into a series of books and one of the characters gets killed, that hurts me. I might end up crying over that. That’s the thing, something that’s well written, when you really get to know the characters, you get close to them, and when you’re writing them, it’s just as bad. So yeah. If your books were adapted for the screen, who could you picture playing Quinn?

Saralyn (21:53): I don’t know. I try not to think of actors and actresses as my characters. I would rather have my readers imagine or answer that question for themselves because we all have different preconceived ideas about what characters look like based on what they are. I don’t even have a lot of description in my books of my characters. I just give a minimum description. All I really say about Quinn is that she’s petite and she has curly dark hair and light eyes, but I never really get specific about her looks because she could be any woman, any young woman, and probably any young woman could play her.

Debbi (23:04): Okay. I always ask what advice you would give to somebody who would like to have a career in writing. Has your advice on this changed, given the tremendous changes in publishing?

Saralyn (23:24): It really hasn’t. There are tremendous changes, but a lot of things are still the same.

(23:33): And if you want to have a career in writing, you have to write. I mean, that’s just the first step you have to write. So for years, I said, I want to be a writer, but I wasn’t writing. And you can want to be a writer, but you’re not going to be a writer until you actually get started and write. I would say, and I do, I teach creative writing and I mentor young writers or new writers. Sometimes they’re older people who want to start writing, and what I say to them is just start writing. Don’t worry about the publishing part right now. Don’t even worry about the editing part. Just write, get that craft going because it’s not going to happen overnight. And practice is what makes you a good writer and makes your writing good enough to be published. You can’t even get to that stage of publication until you’ve mastered your craft to a certain degree. And so none of that has changed. I think that that’s always the truth. What I think has changed is the options. There are many more options than there used to be for publishing and marketing, and those keep changing. Sometimes they open up, sometimes they close up. Sometimes one platform becomes another, but to aspire to be a writer, you have to start with the writing part.

Debbi (25:36): That part has to be really good too. I mean, it has to be the best that you can do because any less than that, and really you’re not doing yourself any favors. Find a group that you can bounce, show your stuff to, get a critique from them. Take notes. Listen with an open mind, all of those things, the basics, this is the thing. The basics are the most important part before you even get to that whole marketing part, that’s something to keep in mind. Very important. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Saralyn (26:24): We just started, it seems like we just started.

Debbi (26:28): This always goes very quickly. It’s like before you know it, a half hour is just up.

Saralyn (26:34): Yeah. I just always enjoy talking to you, Debbi, because your trajectory as a writer, it is so interesting. So I can just learn a lot from you.

Debbi (26:51): That’s nice. Thank you. I always feel like I don’t know if I’m doing anything right. I just do things and hope for the best.

Saralyn (27:02): Well, I think one of the things that you and I have in common is that we both are open to new experiences and new challenges. And this historical mystery for me is something totally new. And I know you’re venturing into something new too. I don’t know if you want to tell about it.

Debbi (27:27): Yeah, I can talk about it briefly. For those who don’t know. I am directing a short film. It’s called “Absolution”. It’s about a priest with a very dark past who has to deal with a penitent who comes to confess and basically face the consequences of his actions in his old life, which were, they were not nice, let’s put it that way. So it’s got kind of a neo-norish feel to it, too. It’s going to be like 10 minutes long. It’s not like a long movie, but our production shut down because of heat in the studio, and we were supposed to make it in one day, and we’re going to hopefully finish that day that we started back on July 8th actually, which was the day before my birthday. I was hoping to have a finished production for my birthday, not quite pulled off. That’s okay. I can defer this kind of gratitude.

(28:31): But yeah, it was just a wonderful experience and if anybody is interested in film and directing and screenwriting, I’m here. I can answer questions on things like that. I can tell you it’s not an easy road to take because you really have to put yourself out there and be able to say, hi, this is what I do, and here’s my screenplay. And then take all of the comments that you get and don’t just immediately go, “You don’t understand. I’m trying to say this.”

No, you don’t understand. You’re not doing what you think you’re doing. Listen to what they’re saying because, yeah, I mean, I just had to hear it two or three or four times before it finally sank in. Oh, I get it now. I need to get there faster. I need to be clearer. I need to go from point A to point B in this scene and not waste a lot of time. I can get rid of this character. I can get rid of this whole scene here. It’s useless. It’s amazing how much stuff you can cut when you start doing screenwriting. Anyway, now that I’ve gone off on that little tear about screenwriting and filmmaking, I’m very happy to be doing it, which is very weird. You have to be a little bit crazy to do this, I think.

Saralyn (29:53): You have to have fun.

Debbi (29:55): It is. It’s total fun.

Saralyn (29:57): And I want to do screen. I want to write a screenplay. I want to get into that too. There’s so much that I want to do and so little time, but one thing at a time.

Debbi (30:11): Exactly. One book at a time, one word at a time. All of it.

Saralyn (30:17): I didn’t start writing until 2013. Since that time, now I have seven books out.

Debbi (30:25): Wow. I’m impressed.

Saralyn (30:27): And I’m up to the eighth. So little by little I’m climbing in that mountain.

Debbi (30:34): Yes. That’s the way it feels, doesn’t it? Like climbing a mountain. Oh, boy. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your being here and spending time with us.

Saralyn (30:45): Well, thank you so much for having me.

Debbi (30:47): It was my pleasure, believe me. And I will come back on now, and I will just say thank you to everyone who is listening. I appreciate all of you and to my Patreon supporters, thank you so much for your help there. It helps a lot. I was just going to say something else. Oh, yes. When I started this podcast, I started and thought it was one of the best things. I’ve come to think of it as one of the best things I’ve ever done because I feel like I have learned so much just by talking to so many authors over the past 10, 11. This is the Eleventh Season, so it’s been 10 years and it’s going to be 11. So it has been a wonderful experience to do this. I’m going to continue doing it, and I want to thank you all for listening, and until next time, when my guest is Howard Kaplan, take care and happy reading. Be seeing you.

If you enjoy the show, please consider becoming a patron. Just visit my Patreon page, check out the perks, and see what you think.

View Details

My guest for this episode of the Crime Cafe podcast is clinical psychotherapist and crime writer Harper Kincaid.

Learn more about the challenges and joys of the writing life, along with the inspiration for her books and advice for anyone who wants to write.

Download a copy of the transcript here.

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today is the USA Today bestselling author of the books in the Bookbinder Mystery series, Bookbinding Mystery series. Her work has been published in a variety of publications including Writer’s Digest Magazine and CrimeReads, and many, many others. It’s my pleasure to have with me today, Harper Kincaid. Hi Harper.

Harper (01:19): Hey, Deb. To everybody here. Such a fabulous treat to be able to meet with you today and talk.

Debbi (01:26): Awesome. Yeah, it’s great to meet you too. And I love your name, Harper. You weren’t named for Harper Lee, were you?

Harper (01:32): No, and honestly, it’s a pen name because I’m also a licensed clinical psychotherapist, and so I try to keep, I don’t really keep the streams very separate anymore, but when I first started writing, I was doing child and adolescent social work and I was writing dirty romance and people getting killed. So maybe you want to not have that come up in the same Google search for that kind of thing.

Debbi (02:03): Understandable. Yes, very much so. Let’s see. You were born in California and raised in Florida. Then—I love this quote—”moved like a nomad with a bounty” on your head.

Harper (02:15): I did.

Debbi (02:17): Where are you living now?

Harper (02:19): So I have lived right outside of Washington DC in a town, Vienna, Virginia, Northern Virginia. Actually, the Bookbinding series is based there and in the series we’re not going to talk too much about it, but it’s a combination of places and people and businesses that are really there and some that I’ve made up. And a girlfriend of mine said it’s Vienna zhuzhed up in the books. So I’ve been there for almost 20 years at this point. But it’s true. I lived in New Orleans, I lived all over South Florida. I lived in Northern California, but we’re East Coasters and we are there in the DC area, which is an interesting time to be there, to say the least.

Debbi (03:04): Well, cool. I’m glad you’re relatively close to where I am.

Harper (03:10): And where are you based? Remind me.

Debbi (03:10): I’m in Columbia, Maryland.

Harper (03:13): Oh, I’m going to wave. waving

Debbi (03:16): Hey! waving Right across the river. Hey, there, across the river, Vienna and all that. Wow.

Harper (03:24): It’s nice. It’s funny, when I first came to the area, I did not understand this demarcation between Maryland and Virginia that people, like Virginia people did not really go over to Maryland, vice versa. And I was like, it’s not that far. What’s the big deal? And I don’t know if that’s ever been your experience, but that was something I found really strange.

Debbi (03:47): I have found a little peculiar myself when I first came here because I’m originally from New York and I’ve lived in all these different places too, like California, Pennsylvania, and then back DC for one summer. I mean, it’s just here, there and everywhere. Indeed. So when you encounter something like that, you’re kind like, what?

Harper (04:11): Yeah, every region, I guess.

Debbi (04:13): And then there’s the traffic.

Harper (04:13): Oh, the traffic is never going to get better.

Debbi (04:18): Oh, it is outrageous around here. It really is, and it always makes its way into my books somehow. I mean, I write about around here and one of the things I always write about is traffic. The traffic is terrible.

Harper (04:30): It’s true. Everyone can relate to that for sure.

Debbi (04:32): For sure. Yeah, and anytime I’ve been in Los Angeles, everybody there is so polite by comparison to here, yet people complain about the traffic there and I just don’t understand it.

Harper (04:44): Every region has its little peccadillos, right?

Debbi (04:47): I suppose so, yeah. I guess if I were living in LA, I would have my peccadillos about the traffic there.

Harper (04:54): You absolutely would.

Debbi (04:55): Yes, absolutely. For sure. What was it that inspired you to write the Bookbinder Mysteries? Why a bookbinder in a bookstore?

I wanted to learn the book business. So I ended up getting a job at my local independent bookseller Bards Alley in Vienna. And I just loved all the characters and the people that would come in.

Harper (05:05): Right. Well, it was art imitating life a little bit because I had finished my graduate education for clinical psychotherapy, but I was writing more full-time and I wanted to learn the book business. So I ended up getting a job at my local independent bookseller Bards Alley in Vienna. And I just loved all the characters and the people that would come in. And it was around that time when I was making the switch from romance to mysteries, cozy mysteries, and my agent Jill Marsal from Marsal Lyon, she said, I’ve been talking with a couple of editors, and they would really love something that’s based in a bookstore in a southern town, but it’s a feminist and maybe you could throw some nuns and a German Shepherd in there. It was really specific and weird. And the irony of that was that I did do that.

(06:07): I put the proposal together, and the one other editor who really wanted all of those things was the first to reject it. And in the meantime, I had a couple of others who accepted it and then they got to battle it out. And then I was writing that. And so that’s where it came from. It was this, when you’re in genre fiction, oftentimes it is this collaboration. I mean, sure, it can be just from the author and puts her, his or her or their pitch in there, but sometimes it is like you have these relationships with your agent or other editors and they’re like, this is what we’re looking for. What do you think? And that’s how I got into the romance gig, what I ended up writing got published by one, but then another publisher said, well, that isn’t right for us, but we like your voice. Will you write this? So it has more of that collaboration sort of a feel to it. I mean, versus maybe literary or memoir or something like that. So that’s how I got into it. And the people of my town really, they love to see who’s who. They all want you to figure out who the villain was. I always give a very PC answer. I say, if you like the character, it’s based on you, and if you don’t like it, it’s something I made up. It’s just a way to keep the peace. It’s a good way to keep the piece, for sure.

[W]hat I ended up writing got published by one, but then another publisher said, well, that isn’t right for us, but we like your voice. Will you write this? So it has more of that collaboration sort of a feel to it.

Debbi (07:30): Absolutely. Yeah. Never tell ’em it’s based on real life.

Harper (07:34): No, no, for sure. Although real life can sometimes be even more interesting.

Debbi (07:39): Oh yeah, certainly.

Harper (07:41): For sure. Yeah.

Debbi (07:42): I mean it’s like you can’t make it up.

Harper (07:44): That’s true.

Debbi (07:44): It’s real.

Harper (07:45): That’s right.

Debbi (07:47): Let’s see. So your second book in that series had a Shakespearean theme. I couldn’t help noticing. Does the play itself work its way into the plot, or is it just a play on words?

Harper (07:58): It’s more of the play on words. There are Shakespearean elements for sure, and there is the, every chapter begins with a Shakespeare quote, not always from Midsummer Night’s Dream, but from any of them. But then that’s sort of your clue of what the theme of the chapter’s going to be. So it’s a nice little homage and a way for me to share my love for theater. I love any kind of musical theater, plays, whether it’s Shakespeare, whether it’s comedy of errors or things like that. So that’s where that came from. And it could have gone a lot deeper into the whole really playing out the Shakespearean themes, but I was on a short deadline, so we were like, okay, let’s just bang this out. And it was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun.

So it’s a nice little homage and a way for me to share my love for theater. I love any kind of musical theater, plays, whether it’s Shakespeare, whether it’s comedy of errors or things like that.

Debbi (08:50): Do you have background in the theater, just out of curiosity?

Harper (08:54): I did some acting back in 1912 when I was a teenager in college, but it was always an avocation, never the main thing. Then my oldest daughter sort of was doing the same thing again in her teenage years, and then we made a right turn into something else. But I absolutely adore the theater. I am fortunate enough, I’ll drive up to the city, New York, and I’ll see things off-Broadway or Broadway and someday I’ll write a play. I haven’t gotten there yet, but right now I just, I’m a super fan.

Debbi (09:32): Well, that’s really cool. I think it’s cool that you would like to write a play someday.

Harper (09:39): People always probably ask you this too. Oh, where do you get the ideas? And you’re like, that’s not the problem. I have so many ideas. What am I going to commit to take the time? Right. So

Debbi (09:53): Absolutely

Harper (09:54): On the list,

Debbi (09:56): And it takes some time to break into something like playwriting or screenwriting, I got to tell you.

Harper (10:01): Really. Absolutely. Well, you know, so.

Debbi (10:06): Oh boy. Yes, indeed. I know.

Harper (10:09): I would love to hear about that another time.

Debbi (10:11): Yeah, we can talk about that. Were you always interested in writing as a child?

Harper (10:20): That was always something since I was four years old, and then I kind of dabbled with it on and off to be a writer, even if you’re writing fiction, there is an act of bravery to it. There’s an unveiling of yourself. It’s probably not a coincidence that I’m both a writer and a psychotherapist. And I think one informs the other. It took me a long time to learn how to write the way that I wanted to, that I always tell people who are starting out, when I’ve taught classes, there’s this vision of what your writing is going to look like or the book or the play or what have you. And then there’s the skill level that you’re at at the time, and there’s this big gulf in between.

It took me a long time to learn how to write the way that I wanted to, that I always tell people who are starting out, when I’ve taught classes, there’s this vision of what your writing is going to look like or the book or the play or what have you.

(11:06): And if you can ride or surf that uncomfortableness and that sort of grind of the back and forth of learning, then you will get to that vision in your head. But there is that price to pay of your time and your dedication. And I also probably didn’t get to it more until, I mean, my children were still pretty young, but until I was in my early forties is when I started. And just because I think I got into my forties and I was like, well, geez, how much longer are you going to wait for your dream?

Debbi (11:42): Exactly.

Harper (11:44): So I was like, ef it, I’m going to just throw something out there. My husband, this to me, he goes, I don’t care how good or bad it is, but finish it and send it. Because I was very famous in the family for starting and not finishing creative projects.

Debbi (12:03): Oh dear.

Harper (12:03): No, but it was, I kind of needed that. I needed that.

Debbi (12:09): That’s actually, yeah.

Harper (12:11): Yeah, just finish it. I don’t care what it is or whatever happens with it. And that was one of the best, sometimes I get mad at him at the time, but later it’s like, that was really actually quite helpful. So.

Debbi (12:23): The funny part is that I’ve read a nonfiction book, I think it was called Range or something like that. It was about how people who have multiple interests who maybe stop, start something and then stop it and do something else who jump around to doing different, developing different skills, actually exceed, excel in particular areas eventually.

Harper (12:49): Oh, I like that one.

Debbi (12:49): Yeah. I mean, it’s like you got to read this book, you probably would like it.

Harper (12:54): I putting it on my list right now.

Debbi (12:55): I think it’s called Range. I think it’s called Range. [It is. I reviewed it here. Then, i did readings from it here.]

Harper (12:57): Okay.

Debbi (12:58): I reviewed it. But it’s a really good book and it’ll give you some hope there, because I’m the same way. I was trying this. I was trying that. And anyway, so how would you describe your writing style? What’s your voice?

Harper (13:16): That’s a great question. I tend to write more with a humorous, lighter banter, and yet I will be just under the surface will be some really more heartbreaking themes. And it’s not that they’re being ignored, and it’s not that they’re just being laughed away. It’s life. They’re the things that make you laugh and where you’re savoring things. And then there’s the things that are mending and breaking your heart at the same time. And sometimes we let them come to the surface and sometimes we don’t. And I’m very, because of what I do for a living, I’m not going to enjoy if it’s heavy all the time. I live with that. I hold a lot of pain and bevy of emotions for my patients, and I’m honored to do so. But then if I’m going to write, it doesn’t mean it’s going to be a comedic slapstick thing, but it’s going to be more nuanced and it is going to be probably a bit lighter in tone just because that’s kind of how we get through, isn’t it?

I tend to write more with a humorous, lighter banter, and yet I will be just under the surface will be some really more heartbreaking themes.

Debbi (14:36): Exactly.

Harper (14:36): Right. And that’s actually what kind of got me into genre fiction in the first place. I graduated from my social work program, and I had a really tough placement to earn my hours, and I just did not have the spoons, the capacity to do what I was doing there, and then read something like Lovely Bones or something that was really violent or graphic or what have you, or something. I wanted the guaranteed grownup happy ending, or at least close to it, or happy for now. I just couldn’t, my nerves were shot. So that’s what I was reading. That’s what I was binge reading and then ended up coming into it. So I still probably have that as my voice.

Debbi (15:29): Interesting. Well, humor is always a nice thing to add, I think. A little bit.

Harper (15:34): A little bit, right. Without going to, it’s not a comedy routine.

Debbi (15:39): Exactly. Yeah. A lot of situational humor sometimes.

Harper (15:44): Indeed, indeed.

Debbi (15:46): Let’s see. And what are you working on now?

Harper (15:50): That’s such a good question. I’m working on two, I sort of go back and forth between them. The fiction book, which is, I’ll talk about the fiction one that’s more probably of interest for your readers. It is about a group of Gen X young adults in Coconut Grove, Florida in the early 1980s. And they are sort of experiencing being the mature parents, even though their parents aren’t, they’re the mature ones. It’s also at this juxtaposition of the Satanic panic and with Adam Walsh being kidnapped and unfortunately murdered, and also the rise of violent street crime during the Mariel boatlift time in Miami. I was raised in that time. And so it’s this confluence of true crime stuff that’s going on and how this group of friends is navigating that plus their families and things like that. So it’s got some crime elements to it, and there will be something that happens, but it’s really not a true crime or a murder mystery. It’s really more of fiction with some suspenseful elements. And it’s been a blast. And it’s also been, you know you’re getting older when they’re like, oh, you’re doing something in the early eighties, that’s historical fiction. And you’re like, excuse me. Sure enough. I mean, I’m digging all through all my research really. I got to tell you, it’s blowing my mind a little bit. So I’m doing the research and I’m going back and I’m like, I am a relic. I am writing about a relic and I am a relic. So.

[Y]ou know you’re getting older when they’re like, oh, you’re doing something in the early eighties, that’s historical fiction. And you’re like, excuse me.

Debbi (17:49): Feels odd doesn’t It

Harper (17:51): It does. It does. But it’s also a heck of a lot of fun.

Debbi (17:56): It is fun. Great fun. What’s your writing schedule?

Harper (18:02): That is where my ADHD comes in, Deb. So I have a pretty thriving practice. I’m really lucky about that. So there are certain days, usually Monday through about Thursday, I’m writing midday from about 11 to three. Sometimes I’m researching, sometimes I’m writing. And on the weekends, it could be anytime, obviously. But then sometimes things come up that have to run errands, whatever. And I’m not one of these people, and I don’t know if it’s good or bad who has, I have to have my word count in by this week or that week. But I do think I do better with a deadline. So I purposely am writing this next book without trying to, I usually get a contract. I usually have a first few chapters, and my agent’s been really great with that. I didn’t want to do it that way this time. I kind of wanted to write really. Okay, I’m thinking five thoughts at once. So let me backtrack. During COVID, I had a tremendous writer’s block. I could not read, I couldn’t write. It was a terrible time that way.

(19:19): And one of the things that I came up with personally was that while I enjoyed writing the romances and the mysteries that I have, it felt more like a job just because of the pace and feeling like you were beholden. Of course, because you have contracts and things like that. I really had lost the joy and the exploration and what have you. So I probably have indulged myself a little bit too much on the other side, but I’m really been trying to work on finding, first of all, it’s to find the story that I actually wanted to commit to. And then finding the rhythm. And it’s only been, I hate to say it in the last year, that I’ve even was able to arrange my schedule because I have a lot of patients first thing in the morning before work, and then of course after work.

(20:09): And so that midday of being able to have that time, and I do better when I have that. And I do better when I’m treating my ADHD and I’m medicated and I can stay on those things otherwise it’s really hard. And I was a later diagnosed person as well, so it was around that period of time. So do you know what I’m saying? So it was just trying to, learning how my mind works best with ADHD and perimenopause and all of these other things. But that’s okay because everything that I went through is now stuff that I get to help other, I have mostly women in my practice. I get to help them because I’ve been through it. And so for that reason, it’s okay. But yeah, it was a grind to sort of figure it out because all the tricks that worked before didn’t work anymore.

Debbi (21:02): Wow.

Harper (21:03): Yeah.

Debbi (21:04): Well, I really admire your ability to deal with that situation. That can be very tough. Thank you. Thank you. Honestly, appreciate it. Let’s see. How do you divide your time between writing and marketing?

Harper (21:22): That’s so funny. I, so marketing, when I actually have a book out, I tend to work obviously with the publisher and hiring. I do hire a publicist now just to take some of that off my plate. In fact, one of the fabulous people had organized this talk that we’re having now, and I really appreciate that. But look, that’s money. And I put aside money and other things to afford that. Others would rather keep that for themselves and do the marketing themselves. God bless you. And I love talking to people such as yourself who have podcasts. It’s not about that, it’s just it’s all the time, right.

Debbi (22:03): Time, yeah.

Harper (22:03): It’s all about time.

Debbi (22:04): It’s all about time. Exactly.

Harper (22:06): So what I really tend to do, whether it’s … mostly it’s through Instagram and then I’ll just share that reel or post is I’ll share something of just either what I’m writing about or what’s going on in my life or try to make people laugh and what have you. So I’m keeping a conversation and a relationship without it being about selling all the time. It’s really about, so that is a constant. I do that almost every day unless I’m on vacation like I’ve been. But otherwise, and even if it’s just a, “Hey, this was something that made me laugh” or whatever. I actually ended up having someone recently who’s living in a war zone right now, and she is a fan of my books. And she ended up DMing me that she just wanted to thank me for some of the funny memes and other things that I share through my feed that sometimes when she’s in a bomb shelter, that that’s sometimes, obviously she will have certain ones that are saved on her phone and it helps her. And I was like, oh, wow. So I mean, that’s not thinking of it for everyone like that, everyone, it’s like a haha, and you move on with your life and that’s totally fine too. But that meant a lot to me, that it could be something from across the world that something I’m just finding amusing having this conversation. So I loved that.

I’ll share something of just either what I’m writing about or what’s going on in my life or try to make people laugh and what have you. So I’m keeping a conversation and a relationship without it being about selling all the time.

Debbi (23:32): It’s nice to be able to help people that way,

Harper (23:35): Isn’t it? Yeah, I agree.

Debbi (23:38): Just a nice touch.

Harper (23:40): Yes.

Debbi (23:41): What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in having a writing career?

Harper (23:46): Oh wow. That’s a great question. I will give, I’ll just say what I did. I did not wait until I had the most perfect manuscript. I did not wait until I had the most brilliant idea. Again, as I said earlier in the podcast, I got into my early forties and I’m like, what am I waiting for? And I started with a novella and I look back now and I’m like, Ugh. But honestly, my first several romance novels were my writing school, and I learned a lot. And I had amazing editors through different houses who really took their time to help me improve. That was something that was a grace that they gave me. It’s not something I expected. But I think that especially more with women, I don’t see this as much with men. I don’t mean to make this a gendered thing, but we kind of wait until we think we’re perfect and then we’re going to try. And I’ve seen people through different writers associations who have been working on the same manuscript for 10 years. And I’m like, now is there also, the flip side of that is that someone reads an earlier book of mine, they’re like, oh, but I own that. And I say, yeah, not so good. But it was good enough for that period and each one keeps getting better and not to be so precious.

I did not wait until I had the most perfect manuscript. I did not wait until I had the most brilliant idea. Again, as I said earlier in the podcast, I got into my early forties and I’m like, what am I waiting for?

(25:19): To also, I ended up, I don’t know if you can do this anymore, you’ll have to tell me. Because back in the day, I ended up emailing half a dozen publishers that I had identified who would probably like my stuff and sent them a query letter and obviously made sure it was fully polished and everything. And I was able to do that directly. I didn’t need an agent for my first four or five books. I don’t know. I’m sure there’s some that will still let you query directly. There’s some that won’t start with the ones who will take your queries directly. If you want that big agency, don’t go for the one who’s the big name. Maybe there’s some scrappy person there who wants to make their career.

Debbi (26:05): It’s absolutely true.

Harper (26:06): You sort of can plot it together and don’t expect it to be sure. We all want a national bestseller or first stuff to be made into movies, and maybe that happens. Absolutely. Don’t lose that dream. And I’m not saying that it can’t happen, but the product can’t be the main reason why you’re doing it. It’s got to be process. And if you just love writing or, although a lot of us writers we love and hate it at the same time, but if you kind of feel like you have to do it or you have a story or you just, even if it gets rejected, even if nothing happens with it, I mean, how many stories have we all heard of, oh, that book was rejected 30 times or this one couldn’t get an agent. There’s a million stories like that. Take feedback, by the way. That’s another thing. Make sure it’s with people that you respect.

(27:05): Make sure, trust your gut with that. You may really disagree with everything they’re saying, but if you start hearing sort of the same thing two or three times, then change it. You’ve got to be really brave and humble. It is something that I look at everything, whether it’s the writing or whether I am being in service to something that’s not just myself. Even if I get to enjoy it, it’s for something else. And so that helps me take the ego out of it. And if a story isn’t working or a character isn’t working that I really liked or was attached to, it’s like, well, then this is no longer in service to the story or to whatever it is. And that for some reason, I don’t know if that helps, but it’s those kinds of things.

Debbi (27:59): Okay, makes sense.

Harper (27:59): And network. And don’t just sit in your place. I could be shy, can’t tell it right now, but you should go to conferences, you should make friends. That’s how I got my first agent was, and my only agent, she’s awesome, was because a really good friend of mine also had her and said, oh, you’re already on your six book. It’s time to get an agent. And she introduced us and we had a conversation. And I don’t know if I would’ve gotten past a certain part of her pile otherwise, but also my friend offered it to me. I didn’t ask her.

Debbi (28:35): Yes.

Harper (28:38): I would never want to put someone in a position, but that was some deliciousness that she gave me. And people want to do it. If they believe in you, they want to do it.

Debbi (28:48): Exactly. You just have to develop those relationships and so much relationship trust. Absolutely. A hundred percent trust that you’re doing good stuff. Yeah, exactly. Well, that’s great advice and I just want to thank you so much for being with us today. Is there anything you’d like to add before we finish up?

Harper (29:09): Nothing. I mean, you can email me at HarperKincaid26six@gmail. I’m happy to answer back. I follow back if people have more questions. I love keeping in touch that way, and I really just want to thank you for your time and having me on here. It’s been such a treat.

Debbi (29:28): Well, thank you. And I really enjoyed meeting you and talking to you.

Harper (29:33): Me too, for sure.

Debbi (29:35): So thanks so much, Harper, and we’ll have our bonus episode after this.

Harper (29:43): I’m excited about that.

Debbi (29:45): For Patreon supporters.

Harper (29:47): That’ll be good.

Debbi (29:48): Yeah, it’ll be awesome. I just want to say thank you to everyone who’s listening, and if you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review. They’re much appreciated. And consider becoming a Patreon supporter. You can get ad-free episodes, excerpts from my work. What else? I have bonus episodes. I’ve got book reviews, all sorts of things on Patreon for supporters. I also have a shop there where you can get books at a discount if you’re a supporter. Also, um … that’s it. That’s all I had to say other than until next time, when our guest will be Saralyn Richard, take care and happy reading. Be seeing you.

Want ad-free episodes and bonus content? Become a patron today!

Or buy me a coffee! 🙂

View Details

My guest for this episode of the Crime Cafe podcast is journalist and crime writer Jonathan Whitelaw.

Wherein we discuss important topics like treating your writing career like a business. Along with really great topics, like Doctor Who, James Bond, and Terry Pratchett. Just sayin’. 🙂

You can download a PDF of the transcript here.

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today is an award-winning journalist and author. He once worked in Scottish politics, then moved into journalism where he covered a wide variety of topics for major publications. He appears on the Bloody Brothers Podcast and the Bloody Scotland Book Club. His novel, The Concert Hall Killer, was recently shortlisted for the Whodunnit Award for Best Traditional Mystery by the Crime Writers of Canada. Originally from Scotland, from Glasgow, he is now living in Canada in Alberta. It’s my pleasure to have with me Jonathan Whitelaw. Hi, Jonathan. How are you doing?

Jonathan (01:37): Hi there. I’m very well, thank you, Debbi. Thank you very much for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Debbi (01:42): Oh, it is a pleasure to have you on, and I love your accent. It is so beautiful and musical.

Jonathan (01:49): Thank you very much. It’s the only one I have.

Debbi (01:51): I love it. I love it. It’s great.

Jonathan (01:54): Very kind.

Debbi (01:55): What was it that took you from Glasgow to Alberta?

Jonathan (02:00): My wife. Short and sweet and simple answer, much like her, except the simple part, obviously far from it, she’s the brains of the operation and I often say that I always like to try to think that I’m the eye candy of the operation, but I’m not even that, so she’s that as well. So yeah, my wife’s a doctor, so a few years ago it was pre-pandemic actually. She was at a conference and she got chatting to an expat doctor who’s working in a place called North Battleford in Saskatchewan, and he was there promoting Western Canada. And him and my wife got chatting and he effectively offered her a job, but of course, with the pandemic and then my wife completing their training and stuff like that, I was having a baby. Everything got kicked into the very, very long grass for a couple of years, and the job was no longer there when we were ready for it. So by that point, we’d really talked ourselves into it and we’d explored all the options and stuff like that about coming over and visas and permanent residency and things and citizenship beyond that. And we found that there was a job opening in Alberta. A place called Grand Prairie, which is about an hour’s flight northwest from Calgary. And that was it. We up sticks and moved wagons west in May 2022, and we haven’t looked back since.

[W]e found that there was a job opening in Alberta. A place called Grand Prairie, which is about an hour’s flight northwest from Calgary. And that was it. We up sticks and moved wagons west in May 2022, and we haven’t looked back since.

Debbi (03:29): Wow. That’s really something.

Jonathan (03:31): Yeah

Debbi (03:32): You can write from anywhere, so that’s cool.

Jonathan (03:35): Exactly right. Well, I was a journalist as your very, very kind intro mentioned there. I was a journalist, but I write full-time now. I’ve been able to go full-time writing since we moved to Canada, so it’s over three years that I’ve been a full-time writer. And it was a mixture of circumstances. It was a mixture of where we were going and what we’re going to be doing and stuff like that, and The Bingo Hall Detectives as a series sort of picking up. So yeah, it’s been a great adventure. We’ve been made to feel very, very welcome here in Alberta and Canada in general.

Debbi (04:13): It’s fantastic.

Jonathan (04:14): And I get to go back to the UK all the time for work. I go back for festivals and stuff like that, and it’s only one flight from Calgary, which is great. So it’s just a red eye there, and then you’re back during the day. So it is good fun, and it’s a wonderful part of the world.

Debbi (04:29): That’s awesome. Yeah, I know as an American, we tend to look upon Canadians as being really nice people. Do you find that they’re very nice?

Jonathan (04:40): Oh, yes. Oh yeah. Very much. Very, very welcoming. And I think a lot of the reasons that we are so comfortable here is that we have been welcomed with open arms everywhere and anywhere we’ve gone. We’ve lived, in the three and a bit years that we’ve been here, we’ve stayed in three major cities in Alberta. Grand Prairie, Edmonton, and now Calgary and everywhere we go, we’ve been welcomed with open arms and been made to feel so at home. And it is home now, right? That’s the thing. When I go back to the UK, if I’m doing work, if I’m doing festivals and events and stuff like that, when I get back on the plane to fly across the Atlantic, I say it and I feel it. That’s me heading home. And we’re all very, very grateful as a family. We’re very, very grateful for that welcoming. And it’s made what has been quite a big life altering transition, so much more easier and so much more pleasant to do. So that’s fantastic. We’re delighted. We’re delighted. We’re delighted to be home.

I think a lot of the reasons that we are so comfortable here is that we have been welcomed with open arms everywhere and anywhere we’ve gone.

Debbi (05:44): Well. You chose the right country on the North American continent.

Jonathan (05:49): Yes.

Debbi (05:49): I think they have their own political problems, but they don’t have a tyrant in control, I think. (Ahem!)

Jonathan (05:55): That’s very, very true. Very, very true.

Debbi (05:57): I’ll try not to say anything more. Things get a little dicey around here.

Jonathan (06:03): Nothing more needed. Nothing more needed. Yeah, absolutely.

Debbi (06:05): No more need be said. Yes, no words. I just read the first chapter of The Garden Club Murders, by the way. And I think your writing is just awesome and can be hilarious at times.

Jonathan (06:18): Thank you very much.

Debbi (06:18): It’s just outright hilarious. Your characters are wonderful. Has anyone ever approached you about making a TV show out of your books?

Jonathan (06:27): Oh, you’re not allowed to ask that one, Debbi. That’s all pretty much on the wraps at the moment. You always ask it, right? You’re allowed to ask it. You should never tell a journalist what questions they can and can’t ask, as I famously did for over a decade, but I’m just not allowed to answer. So there we go. Mum’s the word, mum’s the word. What I will say is that it’s been a very, very exciting last couple of months, and that’s all you’re getting.

Debbi (07:00): Oh, wow. Well, I will look forward to seeing something that you wrote up on the telly.

Jonathan (07:05): Thank you very much.

Debbi (07:06): I certainly hope so. Your books are set in Cumbia.

Jonathan (07:11): Yes.

Debbi (07:12): Now I’ve heard of Cumbia, but I never knew where it was until now. So tell us about Cumbia. What is it like and how does it inform your fiction?

Jonathan (07:21): Yeah, it’s a county in England, northwest England. In fact, it’s the most Northwesterly county in England. It borders Scotland, it’s northern border borders Scotland, and it’s home to the Lake District, which as the name suggests is a huge, big national park filled with, I can never remember the amount of it, but it’s hundreds and hundreds of lakes. Biggest one’s Windermere. Ullswater’s another one, where the action takes place in the first book, and it’s acres and acres and acres, thousands of acres of this kind of unkempt, uninterrupted countryside, rolling hills, mountains, and you’ve got little pockets of humanity in there as well. So you’ve got Carlisle, which is a city, it was a fairly big city, but you’ve also got places like Kendal and Penrith where most of the action series takes place, and they’re all separated by these huge big swathes of open countryside.

So you’ve got Carlisle, which is a city, it was a fairly big city, but you’ve also got places like Kendal and Penrith where most of the action series takes place, and they’re all separated by these huge big swathes of open countryside.

(08:23): And it’s a place, it’s a place I know very, very well. I’d holiday there growing up. And when I was grown up, if you can call me grown up, I don’t know if a lot of people would argue that I’ve never grown up, me being one of them. But when you live in Scotland, when you grow up in Scotland, you live in Scotland, Cumbria as a region is always one of these places that you blink and you miss because you’re on the train. If you’re going down to, say, Manchester, Liverpool, London, or what have you. And it’s strangely underrepresented in fiction, modern fiction anyway. And certainly in crime and mystery fiction where you’ll maybe find fiction. Obviously you’ve got your big, big cities across the world, your Londons, your Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Toronto, all these big, big cities have got dozens and dozens and dozens of crime and mystery novels set in them.

(09:19): But in the UK it tends to be either Scotland as a whole or London. Sometimes you get something in Manchester, Birmingham, sort of Midlands and stuff like that. But in terms of Cumbia as a whole, I think I’m one of maybe two or three mystery writers operating in the moment who use that as their back door, which I always thought before I started writing the first book, I always thought, that’s madness. It’s such a beautiful part of the world, beautiful part of the country, and it’s ready made for mystery. It’s these little pockets of humanity surrounded by endless countryside. And I always say that, I always say, you can always use some countryside when you’re a murder mystery writer because it’s a good place to hide a body.

It’s such a beautiful part of the world, beautiful part of the country, and it’s ready made for mystery. It’s these little pockets of humanity surrounded by endless countryside. And I always say that, I always say, you can always use some countryside when you’re a murder mystery writer because it’s a good place to hide a body.

Debbi (10:08): Yes, yes. Excellent point. I mean, even in film noir, you can see film noir with great big open spaces like The Hitch-hiker.

Jonathan (10:19): Absolutely.

Debbi (10:20): Takes place in absolute bleakness on the road with this crazy guy.

Jonathan (10:27): It adds to the atmosphere, right? It’s this sense of nothingness and I think isolation. Yeah, totally. And what would happen if something goes wrong out here? I think that there’s something very primal about that, that I think we can all experience. We all fear and well, Cumbria might not be necessarily on the scale of The Sahara Desert or something like that, or Death Valley. It’s not quite deserted Arizona or Nevada, but it can be frightening. And when you drive between these villages and towns and in cities at night, the place is completely dark. These are roads that don’t have streetlights on them, and you look out and you think, well, what’s going on over there? Or you don’t want to know what’s going on over there. So that’s the thing about murder mystery, is that there’s always that sinister element to it. Even if you write like me, if you write cozy mysteries, where you don’t necessarily see the knife go in, but the knife’s gone in, and then it’s still murder and all this kind of carry on. So what a rich, fertile playground for a writer to be able to use. And I’m very, very grateful, very, very privileged to do it.

Debbi (11:44): And I’m sure there must be a lot of history there, too.

Jonathan (11:46): Oh yeah. Tons, tons, tons. Yeah. Cumbria, I think maybe has a much more a richer historical literary prowess and legacy. William Wordsworth obviously is one of, if not the biggest name, who was home there and wrote about there and stuff like that. As I wander, softly as the cloud, all that stuff was all conjured up in the Lake District. So yeah, it seemed very, very odd to me that there was 300 years worth of literature and genre fiction that was never ever set there. So the series is very much my homage to there, and I’m always delighted, and I feel very, very lucky when I get compliments from people who do live there and they’ve stayed there and they see places that they know and they live in and they enjoy, and they’re always, Cumbrians are very, very friendly people, and they’re always happy to come and chat to me about it. And that’s a real gift, right? That’s a proper gift. It’s one of the gifts of being a writer is that you get that sort of experience. It’s very special.

Cumbrians are very, very friendly people, and they’re always happy to come and chat to me about it. And that’s a real gift, right? That’s a proper gift. It’s one of the gifts of being a writer is that you get that sort of experience. It’s very special.

Debbi (12:59): Absolutely. Yeah. It’s really nice that you get to showcase this place that most people

Jonathan (13:06): Exactly.

Debbi (13:07): Never get to see because it hasn’t been written about.

Jonathan (13:10): Exactly. Exactly.

Debbi (13:11): I think that’s awesome.

Jonathan (13:11): Awesome. Yeah, it’s really, really cool. In fact, the new one, the new book, The Garden Club Murders, is dedicated to Cumbia and its people. And it was something that I was adamant that I was going to do with the fourth book was a very, very small thank you to the area, a very, very small thank you to the people that have made this series the success that it is. When I collected the first book, won the Lakeland Book of the Year Prize for Fiction, which was a Cumbria award. And I remember when I went to collect the award, I was speechless, unbelievably, I was speechless. I know that is very, very difficult to get your head around, but I was genuinely speechless. And I said in my speech, I said, thank you, thank you for this. It’s not that I’m looking for recognition, it’s not that I ever felt that I needed that sort of validity from the people from Cumbria or the region, but that’s very much how I felt with it when I won that award. And like I say, it’s just really, really cool to be able to have, have an area like that kind of to myself.

Debbi (14:21): Yeah, it’s a nice achievement. Very much an achievement. What’s your writing schedule like?

Jonathan (14:29): Oh dear.

Debbi (14:30): Oh dear?

Jonathan (14:32): Yeah, schedule makes it sound organized. And I’m the least organized person on the face of the Earth. It’s busy. It’s busy. It’s busy, I think is the broad stroke. So I wrote three books last year. I wrote three novels in 2024, and some of that was unexpected, some of it was pre-planned. So I finished off, I did the edits at the beginning of the year for A Concert Hall Killer, which is the third Bingo book. And then I was due to write the fourth one, which I was going to do in the second half of the year. But in between, I had this idea for a puzzle book called Murder in Tinseltown, and I ran the idea past my agent, very, very speculatively. It was my nonfiction agent, and he loved it. He loved the idea of it. And I think we worked this out within 12 days, 10, 12 days of me having the idea and emailing them.

I wrote three novels in 2024, and some of that was unexpected, some of it was pre-planned.

(15:32): We were out in submission with a breakdown of how this was going to work. So it’s one of these, choose your own, choose your own path books from, if you remember, I’m showing my age here, but a certain vintage of readers will remember these types of books where it would be, say you’ve walked down a corridor, turn to page 72. If you take a left turn to page 160 if you want to take a right. And then you would go to the correspondent page and it would maybe move the story forward, or you would be eaten by a troll or something like that. So my wife, like I said, the brains of the operation, she’d been badgering me for years to write a modern up-to-date aimed at an adult readership, one of these for mystery.

(16:23): So I finally got round to doing it, and part of the deal that it was sold to Harper Collins on was that it would be ready for Christmas 2024. So I had maybe about eight, 10 weeks to write it from scratch. So that kind of took up all the summer, and then it pushed the fourth Bingo book into the distance a little bit. So by the time that we ended the calendar year last year, I’d written three books, but I’m a writer. This is what I’m meant to be doing. If I wasn’t to doing that, I’d be out vacuuming the carpet or doing lots and lots of laundry. So yeah, I’m not complaining about it. I’m not complaining about it.

Debbi (17:08): Very good. Very good. What authors have most inspired you to write?

Jonathan (17:14): The good one? I have so many. So many. I used to read a lot of Terry Pratchett when I was younger.

Debbi (17:21): Oh, yeah.

Jonathan (17:23): The late great Sir Terry Pratchett, in fact, much missed. He’s been gone, I think 10 years now. So yeah, I loved sci-fi and fantasy growing up. I still do, and I don’t read it as much or as often as I’d like to. But I always loved Terry Pratchett, I always love Terry Pratchett’s humour, and I loved how you pick up any of the Discworld novels, of which there’s what? Twenty-five, 30 or something like that. And, at its core, it’s a fantasy novel. It’s Dungeons and Dragons and Wizards and all the rest of it, but they’re also hilarious.

Debbi (18:02): Oh, yeah!

Jonathan (18:03): And it’s all an allegory for real life.

Debbi (18:07): Exactly!

Jonathan (18:08): What I always loved about Terry was that his mastery of language and his inherent hatred for authority figures, it all shone through the work. And he was able to compose characters, especially authoritarian characters, so well, and cut them down with just one sentence, with one quip, and bring them back down to size. And I love that, and I love that, and I love that in all media. I love it in TV shows and movies. And Terry Pratchett, for me, was the very, very best to do it. So I think the humor, certainly the humor element of it in my own work and in my own writing probably pays a lot homage to Terry Pratchett. And it is only an homage. I would never ever dream of liking myself to him, far from it. But yeah, lots and lots, lots and lots of writers for very, very different reasons.

What I always loved about Terry [Pratchett] was that his mastery of language and his inherent hatred for authority figures, it all shone through the work.

(19:12): I adored doing Shakespeare at school. I was one of those kids. I was one of those kids, that actually really enjoyed Shakespeare. There’s this whole thing that you’re not really meant to when you’re 12 years old, to enjoy all the language, get all the jokes and stuff. So yeah. Then mystery writers, you’ve got your godfather of mystery is Arthur Conan Doyle with Sherlock Holmes. Weirdly, you mentioned in my introduction there that I do work for the Bloody Scotland Festival and the book club and stuff like that. And I remember one of the first events that I did was the book club, and one of the books that we read was the second Sherlock Holmes novel, or novella, sorry. So it’s The Sign of the Four, I think it is. I’m someone, I’m sure listeners will correct me, which is fine. And I hadn’t read it for years.

(20:08): I hadn’t read it, I think since I was a teenager. And I came to it pretty fresh. And what amazed me was how modern it was, what amazed me in terms of the composition, in terms of how it’s written, in terms of the style. We as mystery writers still use styles and techniques that were on display in 1862 or whenever this novel was first published. And I was so, so amazed at how modern it felt and how fresh it felt, even though it was a hundred and what, 40 years old or something like that, 180 years old. So yeah, I’m in a really, really lucky position as a writer because I still do a lot of review work, so I get to read a lot of very, very fresh, a lot of new stuff, a lot of new writers, a lot of established writers who’ve got new work coming out, and I get to read them early. Some of them ask me to offer a blurb for the cover and the press and stuff like that, which always baffles me because you’re in trouble if you’ve got to ask me. That’s how I always look at it.

(21:13): But I’m always grateful to do it. And it is always lovely to see contemporaries and consider myself contemporary of these wonderful modern writers. I think that’s a very long winded way of saying that. I don’t actually have any favorites. There’s too many to pick. I couldn’t pick one.

Debbi (21:32): Terry Pratchett.

Jonathan (21:33): Terry Pratchett. For ease, we’ll go for Terry Pratchett.

Debbi (21:36): Absolutely. I love Terry Pratchett. Oh my gosh. And I only got to know about him maybe 15 years ago. That’s when I first got exposed to him through a blogger I happened to meet who likes Doctor Who.

Jonathan (21:50): Right. I see. Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. Of course. Of course.

Debbi (21:54): We connected over Doctor Who, James Bond, stuff like that. And then I find out about this Terry Pratchett, and I’m like, ooh, this guy’s great.

Jonathan (22:03): Debbi, you’re reading from my resume there. Doctor Who, James Bond, all that stuff. That’s all the good stuff, right?

Debbi (22:10): It’s awesome stuff.

Jonathan (22:12): We could probably fill another show with just talking about those things. Definitely.

Debbi (22:15): Probably. Yeah.

Jonathan (22:17): Yeah, absolutely.

Debbi (22:17): Maybe we should start a podcast about Doctor Who, an American and a Scot.

Jonathan (22:26): Scot. Yeah. A Scot.

Debbi (22:28): A Scot and an American on Doctor Who.

Jonathan (22:30): There we go. There we go. Well, we had an American set Doctor Who, right? We had the American set Doctor Who in 1996, and we’ve had plenty of Scots that played Doctor Who over the 60 plus years. So let’s do it.

Debbi (22:44): My gosh. I could really, I just love talking about Doctor Who because each one was so different, and I won’t comment on where the show is going now. It’s just kind like, what is … what?

Jonathan (22:58): Yeah, it’s different, right? It’s different.

Debbi (23:00): It is different.

Jonathan (23:01): Bring back the wobbly sets and the bubble wrap monsters. That’s what I think.

Debbi (23:05): Yeah, please bring back the terrible special effects. I love those.

Jonathan (23:09): Cheap and cheerful. That’s the way forward, right? Cheap and cheerful.

Debbi (23:11): That’s it. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe bring Tom Baker back for a guest appearance again? I love Tom Baker.

Jonathan (23:21): He’s very old. He’s very, very old. But I think he’s still got it though. He’s still got it. He’s still got it.

Debbi (23:25): He’s still got it.

Jonathan (23:26): Absolutely. Yep.

Debbi (23:27): Oh, Tom, hang in there, Tom. We love you.

Jonathan (23:30): Absolutely. He’s in his nineties now, I think. 92 or something like that. 93 years old.

Debbi (23:33): Something like that. Yeah.

Jonathan (23:35): Good. A good Scouser. My dad and my stepmom are from Liverpool, so yeah. Yeah, there you go. It’s that connection, right? It’s the five degrees of Kevin Bacon, but we’ll see Tom Baker this time.

Debbi (23:49): Alright. And Terry Pratchett.

Jonathan (23:52): And Terry Pratchett.

Debbi (23:53): Terry Pratchett and Tom Baker. Two favorites. I won’t even tell you how many Tardises I have in this room alone. It’s a little preposterous, but that’s okay.

Jonathan (24:05): It is. Okay.

Debbi (24:07): Let’s see. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in a writing career?

Jonathan (24:13): Well, you got to write, okay. I know that sounds glib, and I know that that sounds almost cheeky, but it’s true. It’s true. You got to write. I do a lot of teaching here in Alberta, creative writing, teaching specifically crime and mystery courses as well. And I always open my courses and I always open my classes and workshops with, at the end of the day, if you don’t write it, nobody gets to read it. Alright? And you can’t be a writer with it all just in your head. It doesn’t work that way. You can have the best characters, best plot, best ending. It’s not just crime and mystery. It could be anything, any genre, a literary fiction, anything, nonfiction, biography, you name it. If it stays in your head, nobody gets to enjoy it. Nobody else gets to enjoy it. And the wonderful thing about creative writing and the written word in novel format, short story, poetry, screenplay, whatever, is that it gets to be enjoyed by an audience. And people want to read it, right? People want to read your work. When we get over that hump, when we get over my bluntness, what I always say is remember that this is a professional industry.

You can have the best characters, best plot, best ending. It’s not just crime and mystery. It could be anything, any genre, a literary fiction, anything, nonfiction, biography, you name it. If it stays in your head, nobody gets to enjoy it.

(25:30): It’s a multi-trillion dollar global industry, and you need to be professional. And I always say to my classes, and if anyone is close enough to ask me for advice, I always say, you don’t need to be a professional writer to be professional about your writing.

Debbi (25:48): That’s right.

Jonathan (25:48): And that’s things like if you work on your manuscript and you want to query an agent or query a publisher about maybe getting it published, for example, if that’s the path that you want to go down, do your research. Find the agents and the publishers that publish your work and your type of work. There’s absolutely no point in sending your sci-fi masterpiece to an agent who only specializes in romance because it’s not what they do. And these agents will undo, advertise what they want and what they represent and what they look for. So be professional about your writing, not just from an industry point of view, but for yourself, right? It’s hard work. It takes a lot of work, it takes a lot of effort, it takes a lot of imagination and stuff like that. A lot of dedication. It takes a long time.

(26:41): You owe it to yourself to be professional about your writing and treat it with the respect that it deserves. And you as a writer deserve, I always say it makes me sound and feel a little grubby because at the end of the day, it is an art form and it’s this art versus business, these two loggerheads that go at it forever. But if publication, if the publishing world, the traditional publishing world is the route that you want to go down, just remember that you’ll be working with editors, you’ll be working with salespeople, you’ll be working with cover design people, audio book designers. That’s the thing. My name is on the front of my books, but it takes dozens and dozens of people, some people I’ve never met to get it on the shelf. And that goes to printers, to distributors, to booksellers, to bloggers, to podcast hosts, and remembering that it’s a collaborative effort, but everyone in the industry does it for a job.

(27:43): And if you want to do it as a job that you have to treat it like a job. The earlier you know that, I think the better chance you stand of being successful in this industry. And I wish I knew earlier than I did, right? That this isn’t me sitting in my high horse or sitting in an ivory tour. I learned the hard way. I’m published 10 years in 2025. It’s my 10th anniversary as a published author, but I’ve been writing since I was 17. I’ve been writing since, well, I’ve been writing seriously quote-unquote since I was 17. And it took me the guts of another decade before I was published. And a lot of mistakes that I made when I was younger could very easily have been avoided. And I’m always at pains. I’m always at pains to pass that knowledge on because I don’t want you guys, I don’t want anybody making the same mistakes that I did because it’s needless. So there we go. Lecture over.

Debbi (28:45): What are you currently working on?

Jonathan (28:48): So there are two more Bingo books that are being looked at by my editor. They’re not written, they’re just proposals at the moment. I’m out in submission with my, a time recording went out on submission with my agent for a new standalone Canadian set murder mystery. It’s a little harder, little harder edge than my cozy stuff. And it was a lot of fun to write, a lot of work, a totally different mentality and shift in me as a writer to be able to write that. You always say with these things, gritty or darker, all these sort of platitudes that go into these things, but they’re platitudes because they’re true. Not having to resist the temptation to not have as many gags or as many deliberately or you hope deliberately humorous quips left, right, and center, while still maintaining a lightness to the darkness to try and bounce it out a little bit. So that’s really, really exciting. I’m really, really nervous about that because it’s the first time I’ve been on submission for about seven years and it doesn’t get any easier. You don’t get any more confident with these types of things or I don’t, anyway,

I’m really, really nervous about that because it’s the first time I’ve been on submission for about seven years and it doesn’t get any easier. You don’t get any more confident with these types of things or I don’t, anyway,

Debbi (30:09): I know, know the feeling.

Jonathan (30:11): And yeah. And I’ve got standalone. I’ve got a new standalone coming out. It was meant to be coming out in the UK in July, but it’s actually been pushed back to February 2026.

(30:21): And again, that’s on the cozier scale that’s coming out from Harper Collins called All At Sea. So it’ll be out here in North America, probably in about a year’s time, roundabout now maybe July, August time. And that was a lot of fun to do as well. Brand new characters, completely different setting. Totally different from Cambria. It’s set in the Mediterranean on a luxurious yacht with a celebrity crew, and the captain is found murdered, and two of the celebrities have to team up to catch the killer. So yeah, just a little bit. Talking about James Bond, it feels like my ode to James Bond, because it’s all these glamorous locations with glamorous people and action. And there’s jet skis and there’s police racing through the streets of La Spezia in Italy. So yeah, really, really fun to do because the Bingo Hall Detectives is very homespun. It’s home counties, it’s tea, it’s woolen jumpers, it’s British sensibilities. Whereas this one that went all out the window, it was good to be let loose. So that’s out in February in the UK and it’ll probably be about a year’s time for North America, which I’m very, very excited about. Really excited.

Debbi (31:45): Excellent. Congratulations. That’s wonderful.

Jonathan (31:46): Thank you very much. Thank you.

Debbi (31:47): For all your success.

Jonathan (31:49): Thank you.

Debbi (31:50): Is there anything you’d like to add before we finish up?

Jonathan (31:53): No, not at all. Just that the questioning has been wonderful, and I get very nervous with these things because I used to be a journalist and I was on the other side of the mic for a very, very long time. And I remember what I was like as a journalist, and you’ve been a wonderful, very gracious host, Debbi, so thank you very much.

Debbi (32:14): Oh, it was my pleasure. Believe me. Thank you. It was a pleasure having you on. And to everyone listening, if you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review. Also consider becoming a patron of the show on Patreon. Check out our Patreon page where we have bonus episodes and sample chapters from my work. In fact, I put up whole novels, but you have to be at a certain level of patronage to get to them. So anyway, check us out there. And on that note, I’ll just say thanks for listening. Our next guest will be Harper Kincaid. Until then, take care and happy reading. Be seeing you!

PS: I was accidentally in Taggart – it inspired a crime novel.

Get the episodes ad-free and other perks when you support us on Patreon!

View Details

My guest for this episode of the Crime Cafe podcast is crime writer and media entrepreneur, Clay Stafford.

Don’t miss our discussion of the ways the publishing and filmmaking worlds collide, so to speak. 🙂

To download a PDF of the transcript, just click here.

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. We are back with a new season of the show, which is starting its 11th year. I can’t believe I’ve been doing it this long. And once again, I have with me one of the crime genre’s most multimedia and multihyphenate entrepreneurs out there. His business, American Blackguard, does film and television production as well as publishing. He’s also the organizer and promoter for the Killer Nashville Conference, which will be coming up later this year. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest, Clay Stafford. Hi, Clay. How are you doing?

Clay (01:34): Hi, Debbi,

Debbi (01:34): Gotta get you on camera. There we go.

Clay (01:38): Hey, how are you?

Debbi (01:39): I’m fine, thank you. How are you?

Clay (01:41): Eleven years.

Debbi (01:42): Eleven freaking years. Can you freaking believe?

Clay (01:45): Stamina. Stamina.

Debbi (01:47): It’s insane. There’s stamina. Yeah, I’m mustering up the stamina to keep it going. Yeah.

Clay (01:56): Well, for Killer Nashville, we’re coming up on 20 years.

Debbi (01:59): Wow, that’s impressive.

Clay (02:02): Yeah, so … stamina.

Debbi (02:06): Amen to that, man. Amen. I hear you. Apart from getting ready for the conference, what projects are you currently working on? What’s on your front burner, so to speak?

Clay (02:17): I’ve actually got three projects that I’m working on right now. One is a nonfiction book and the other is a memoir. And because I come from a very eclectic kind of Appalachian background, and then Country Boy went to the city, and so there’s some things to discuss there. And then I’m working on a novel now, the first in his series, and it’s got a few short stories and poems and stuff like that out and some essays, but those are the long-term projects that I’m working on right now.

Debbi (02:58): Very cool. It’s funny you should say you were a country boy who found the city. I was a city girl who ended up in the country. Briefly.

Clay (03:10): Yeah. So I sort of came back. I was a New York guy, a Los Angeles guy, and a Miami guy, and went back and forth from place to place in those areas, but ended up in Nashville. So I don’t know if I’ll actually, we can call Nashville the country, but it’s back towards home where I’m from in Tennessee.

Debbi (03:38): It’s not quite as country as say, Bakersfield, California.

Clay (03:43): No, I’ve been to Bakersfield. I love Bakersfield. But no, it’s still, we’ve got our family farm back in east Tennessee, and so I’ve still got roots in that area and spend a lot of time in north Georgia and areas like that. So I get out in the tick country, so.

Debbi (04:10): Excellent, excellent. Very good. Nashville is also a big place for music, correct?

Clay (04:16): Yeah, they do a little bit of music here,

Debbi (04:20): A little bit of music, just a little,

Clay (04:26): Yeah. And the little community I live in is replete with country music and gospel pop performers, writers, producers and stuff. And so we have these tour buses that come by all the time, and I never thought I would live in an area where tour buses come by to point at houses and things and say, so and so lives there, so-and-so lives there, but it’s just, yeah, Nashville’s got its charm, that’s for sure.

Debbi (05:00): My goodness, that must be quite a thing. Having tour buses come through your neighborhood. Things have changed so fast in terms of the publishing industry and the movie industry and the television industry that I see them kind of coming together. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Clay (05:24): Well, I think that they’re definitely tied together now because we are in a position where we’re doing IP, intellectual property more. That’s what I focus on more right now. I used to say that I was a writer or a filmmaker, but right now I would say that I’m an IP creator. And because so many, it’s different. It’s no different than you take a book and then make an audiobook and make a ebook from it. It’s the same property that’s being construed in multiple media. And so I think yes, they all come together because it’s the way people are digesting the entertainment and information right now, so it is becoming one. But for me, with my eclectic life as a filmmaker and a writer and all of that, for me it has always been one. So for me, it’s almost like, oh, the world is coming full circle back to where I’ve always been, which was create something and then just decide what plate we want to serve the meal on.

I used to say that I was a writer or a filmmaker, but right now I would say that I’m an IP creator.

(06:40): And that’s what all these different medias are, just the plate that you’re serving the meal on. And some people want to eat out of a hardcover book and some people want to eat out of a movie theater. And so really you’re just satisfying the needs and the options and choices, the wonderful options and choices because there are people who are auditory, people who are visual and being able to read and comprehend. All of those are strengths, and we’re all wired differently. And more and more we’re finding psychologically that each of us learns differently and processes differently. And creating all these avenues for single stories is to me, like all progress for me. I love progress. I love technology, I love innovation. And so for me, I think that it’s an incredible time to be in.

Debbi (07:43): It is definitely. People are doing things out there that are just amazing, but sometimes it’s a matter of being seen, being visible. Do you have any thoughts on what authors can do to make themselves more visible in a way that’s not simply saying, Hey, buy my book. Buy my book?

Clay (08:05): Yeah, I think just being authentic. I think we are really in a position where writers used to have this hallowed place as these intellectual people who lived in ivory towers and produce tomes that everyone loved to read. And I think even the noir authors were romanticized to a great degree because we know what writing is. It’s sitting there and typing on a keyboard and watching the cursor go across the screen. It’s very exciting. I think that there’s been a change in our society, just like there is a change in technology that we just talked about in the previous paragraph where you don’t even have to have, you’re going to get hate mail for this maybe, but you don’t even have to have any talent. You don’t have to have skills, you don’t have to have whatever to be a celebrity. You just have to be on TV.

(09:28): I mean, you can take this any way you want, but you can be anybody in America that you want, as long as you’ve been on TV and have had no experience at all, you can be anything you want because you’ve been on TV. So in terms of that, I say that writers have come to a point that they can’t rely on their intellectual laurels. They can’t rely on their talent and skills anymore. They have to become visual. And that means being on TV. Well, even in our lifetime, that whole concept has changed. It’s no longer TV, but what in the world is TV? Everything’s a streaming something. So I think the way to get out there and people have become, I think you’ve got to get out of your head in terms of being and thinking, looking at it from your side out, and instead look from the other side towards you.

(10:39): And what they really, really are looking for is some truth and reality. They’re fascinated by people’s lives. That’s why you have so many reality TV shows and reality programs and even reality forensic files, reality, whatever, because people are really interested in other people’s lives. Some fancy and glamorous and some just strange and crazy, but all of them seem to be like a train wreck. You watch, I don’t want to say that your life, writers, needs to become a train wreck, but I would say that getting your story, getting your personality out there and in a way, becoming your own celebrity, because even posting on everybody used to put on post on social media, even just posting on social media now with the algorithms, you’re completely lost on that. I think you should do things that you can control,

(11:50): Have your own, if you have a YouTube channel or you have your own newsletter list or you have your own something that you can control and something that you own as opposed to social media and things that you have no control over their algorithms. That’s the things that writers need to do in terms of building a platform. And then I’d say build it on authenticity, not fluff, not buy my product. But I mean on social media, I guess some of my greatest likes and positive comments when I’m sitting there with my Doberman lap dogs sitting in my lap because people, they respond to things that are real. And so I think, in that, people get to know you, not because you’re pushing it on them, but because of their natural curiosity of, oh, Debbi Mack seems very interesting. What does she do? Oh, she does that. Well, that’s interesting. I’ll take a look at that. And I think you let the, we are at a place now where the consumer, the reader is the one who will follow the breadcrumbs if they choose to follow the breadcrumbs, but we no longer sell anything. And I think writers, many of the writers that I know and meet and talk with are wanting to sell something. We no longer sell anything anymore.

Have your own, if you have a YouTube channel or you have your own newsletter list or you have your own something that you can control and something that you own as opposed to social media and things that you have no control over their algorithms.

Debbi (13:36): Exactly.

Clay (13:38): We show up, we be ourselves, and we attract the people just like friends. We attract people that are like us that have something interesting, even if they’re not like us and people we just want to hang out with. And then that leads them naturally into, well, if I’m going to hang out with, I like hanging out with ’em on social media. I like hanging out with ’em when I get their newsletter. I might spend eight hours and hang out with ’em and read their book, and that’s the choice that falls on the reader. So I really think that we need, to get directly to your question of how to get out there. I really think that, as you were saying initially, you know how the book world and the film world and all the visual world, it’s all coming together. Put yourself out there in a multimedia mentality.

I really think that, as you were saying initially, you know how the book world and the film world and all the visual world, it’s all coming together. Put yourself out there in a multimedia mentality.

(14:42): And that will attract people in to you because it’s discoverability, right? Again, there’s people who look at social media, they like to follow it. There’s people who like to read newsletters. There’s people who like to learn, and there comes your YouTube channel. And so all of that stuff coming together creates an audience of people who actually want to, in their minds, there’s this feeling too of now psychologically, lots of studies done on it where people feel like they … you know, a celebrity or somebody dies. And you would think, by the way people were asking that it was their best friend, because they’re that close. But people are looking, starving for that connection with other people. And if you provide that in an honest way, I think you build an audience and you become high profile. And then what leads from there? As I said before, jokingly, you could be anything you want after that point in all seriousness, because you’ve created a group of people who actually have a genuine, not a pressured sales, not any kind of thing, but a genuine interest in who you are.

Debbi (16:04): Exactly.

Clay (16:05): And what your product is.

Debbi (16:07): I think that’s great advice. I mean, you want to attract people who get you.

Clay (16:12): Yes, absolutely.

Debbi (16:13): Who are interested in you, not force them to look at you. It’s like when I used to do book signings, I would sit at a table, maybe toward the front of the store sometimes, sometimes in the back, and I would see people and say, do you enjoy mysteries? That’s the way I would introduce myself. And if they didn’t, well, okay, never mind. I don’t want to bother you. I just happened to write them. If somebody was interested, I would just say, well, this is my book. And I would tell ’em about it. And it was simple as that to make a sale sometimes. But that kind of personal touch tends to get missing sometimes in all the technology.

Clay (16:56): And I think that it’s really, what do you want? And I think there’s, I want to be famous. I want to make a whole lot of money. Those aren’t good reasons to be a writer. I want you to buy my book. It’s not even necessarily a good reason for be a writer. I want to write something that communicates to you. Now, there’s a good reason to be a writer.

Debbi (17:27): Exactly.

Clay (17:28): And the beautiful thing about that is I have control over that. I can refine and refine. I mean, I have a limit to my talent. I have a limit to my skillset, but I can refine and refine to the point that I feel like I am communicating with you. And that should be the end result for me as a writer. And you know what? That takes the whole sales pressure off of everything. This is a story that meant something or means something to me, and I hope it means something to you. And if you don’t want to buy it, probably in the library, it’s somewhere else, you can get it. It doesn’t matter. But the focus, I think, really, once again, is on the audience now rather than on us as writers trying to hawk our wares. It’s on building that connection. It’s the connection that a) people are starved for, but b) it’s the connection that brings them in and wants them to be a part of your life, which includes all of your books and everything else.

I have a limit to my talent. I have a limit to my skillset, but I can refine and refine to the point that I feel like I am communicating with you. And that should be the end result for me as a writer.

Debbi (18:40): Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, I agree. Yeah. What would you say a typical day is like for you?

Clay (18:50): A typical day?

Debbi (18:52): A typical day if there is such a thing?

Clay (18:54): Well, now I’m giving away my trade secrets. People are trying to find me know what’s going on now. I wake up very early and I do emails to catch up on what happened over the night, and then I turn my email program off and I turn my phone off.

Debbi (19:16): Good move.

Clay (19:16): And then around five o’clock in the afternoon, my wife gets home and we have dinner, and then I go out and work some more. And then the last thing I do around eight o’clock, I look at emails and clean out my email box. And that way I haven’t been bothered all day long by emails, and I answer emails and then that’s clear, and then I shut everything up. And then, because I do so many interviews for the next two hours, I’m usually reading books, not always, I don’t want to say ones that I don’t want to read because I only review and do interviews with people that are really turned on by, but it’s not books that I would, there’s some books that come out that I want to just personally read that I’m not going to interview the author. I’m not going to do anything. And I find I don’t get to do that because my job requires that I read the stuff for my interviews just like you’re doing here with me. And so that’s my typical day then I go to bed and I sleep very well, and then I get up the next morning and I do it, and I do that seven days a week.

Debbi (20:33): Wow.

Clay (20:34): Yes. I don’t take time off. I lose momentum if I take time off. And I really am just very grateful for having a job where I can be creative. I have an incredible team that works with me at American Blackguard, and I put them up and match them against anybody. They are incredible. They’re supportive, they’re understanding, they’re compassionate. They care about not only what’s going on within our nucleus, but also care about people through Killer Nashville, because they work on Killer Nashville as well. And then we started the streaming service, The Balanced Writer, you know that. And so they’re there and they’re very supportive. And so my family is very supportive of my lifestyle and work. And so when you have all the boxes checked, why not show up and play every day? I can remember as a kid, I would wake up in the morning and write a story, or I’d wake up in the morning and get my eight millimeter camera, and I’d take off with my buddies and we would start shooting a film. And I don’t think much has changed in all of that time. I’m still that little kid with a manual typewriter and an eight millimeter black and white camera and it’s play. Kids don’t wake up in the morning and work.

I don’t take time off. I lose momentum if I take time off. And I really am just very grateful for having a job where I can be creative.

(22:24): They wake up in the morning and play. And so seven days a week? Yes, seven days a week, because I absolutely love it. And I feel very fortunate to have been given an opportunity to do the things that I love.

Debbi (22:43): Well, that’s fantastic. And you’re doing a great job. It’s amazing what you’re doing.

Clay (22:48): Well, thank you.

Debbi (22:49): What advice would you give to people who want to make a living as a writer?

Clay (22:58): Write. And that sounds silly, doesn’t it? But write. Don’t spend all your time focused on trying to be successful. Don’t spend all your time focused on trying to get people to like you on Facebook and don’t spend time looking at social media. Write. After I do my emails in the morning, I write, I don’t, like today, my son came home and said, have you eaten today? And I said, no. And he brought me a sandwich, but most days I don’t even eat breakfast or I don’t eat lunch because I drink a lot of coffee, but I’m really into what I’m doing to the point that my physical sensations don’t seem to matter that much. It’s what’s gone here. And then I have dinner in the evening. So I pretty much just, I focus in on what I’m working on. And what was your original question with that one right there?

Don’t spend all your time focused on trying to be successful. Don’t spend all your time focused on trying to get people to like you on Facebook and don’t spend time looking at social media. Write.

Debbi (24:07): Oh, just, what your advice would be to somebody who wants to make a living as a writer.

Clay (24:11): Yeah. So that comes down to that. After I do those emails in the morning, I start writing and I write, and I am an outliner and I do research, and I’m writing and doing research and outlining from that point all the way until five o’clock. And I’ve been able in my life to get a lot of product out. And I think you can’t become that celebrity that you want to be as a writer until you’ve got product that’s available. I mean, somebody can say, I have this credible idea for some new toothpaste. Well, until you can go to your local shopping market and buy the toothpaste, it really doesn’t matter. So I would say what is the best thing for writers to do is write. Forget all of this peripheral stuff that’s going on. And our society really, there’s this whole market that I think capitalizes on writers by saying, let me teach you how to be a social media success. Let me teach you about branding. Let me teach you about marketing. And my question is, what are you marketing? If you don’t have your book, what are you marketing?

Debbi (25:34): Exactly.

Clay (25:35): So what’s my advice to writers? Write, spend the time writing. And then once you get something perfected to the point that you feel, I doubt if it’s perfect, but it’s the best I can do.

Debbi (25:51): Exactly.

Clay (25:51): At that point, you put it out into the world and then you go back and write something else. And I really think you don’t … there’s this whole pressure that’s on. I’m writing something and it has to be super successful and I have to make a lot of money off of it. No, where you’re successful and where people become successful is their backlist. Not that frontlist book that comes out. Sure, you got to have a frontlist, you got to have frontlist to get to the backlist. But it’s people discovering these little nuggets that you’ve written. And that can be short stories, essays, poems. Somebody can, I mean, lots of people have gotten agents, they’ve gotten people who bought their books because they saw your mystery story published in a particular mystery periodical and said, well, I really like what Debbi Mack is doing there and check her out. And lo and behold, she’s got some books. And so I buy a book and those backlists then move things along. So I really think the best advice you can give a writer is write. I grew up as the son of a brick mason, and I knew how to lay brick. And the best way to build a house is brick by brick. And if you’re not bricking the house, then you’re not producing anything, so … write.

Debbi (27:21): So right. So correct. Yes. Absolutely. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Clay (27:28): No, I always enjoy talking to you. It seems like we have our little annual gathering here. It seems like such a truth. But what I was thinking today is that I was like, okay, oh good, I got to see Debbi Mack today. And then I was like, it couldn’t have been a year since the last time we had a conversation, but I guess it was.

Debbi (27:52): It was actually a year. Yeah.

Clay (27:54): Time just flies. So I guess the last comment I want to make is for your listeners who are writers, because time passed so quickly between the last time I talked to Debbi and now, everything about your life is passing so quickly. And if you don’t write today, it doesn’t seem like a big deal. But if you don’t write for 30 days, if you don’t write for a year, you’ve lost some incredible time to share your story and to share your perspective with other people and learn new skills and have a great time, I mean, you and I know writing is incredibly fun. They say it’s solitary and lonely. I don’t know. I’ve got a head full of characters and stuff, so it never gets lonely for me. They won’t shut up.

[E]verything about your life is passing so quickly. And if you don’t write today, it doesn’t seem like a big deal. But if you don’t write for 30 days, if you don’t write for a year, you’ve lost some incredible time to share your story …

Debbi (28:49): Exactly.

Clay (28:49): So it’s a lovely time, but time does pass quickly. And I really would encourage, if your listeners are not diligently doing, you don’t have to be crazy like me and do seven in the morning to 10 at night every single day for seven days a week, 365 a year. You don’t have to be crazy like that, but donate 30 minutes or something every day and just write something that helps you discover something new about yourself. I think that’s what writing really is for me, even if it’s fictional, it’s discovering something new about myself. And I think the growth that comes from that enhances the rest of your life, not the distance of your life, but the surrounding life that you have at the present. And I would encourage your listeners to pick up a pen or start typing and just make it a practice every day, because time is fleeting and you’ve got all this in here and you need to share it out there so people know it.

Debbi (30:04): Amen to that. I agree with you completely. The book will not write itself. You have to get started.

Clay (30:12): No, the funny thing is about writing, the book doesn’t write itself. It evolves and you evolve as you go along. And I really think it’s the evolution of it all that provides the center of who you are as a writer, and that’s how you improve and grow. By not necessarily growing as a writer or growing as a social media marketer or whatever. It’s growing as a person because that personhood is going to come through in that writing that you do.

Debbi (30:55): I agree. I agree. These are great points. Thank you, Clay.

Clay (30:59): Absolutely, Debbi. And thank you for having me on your show. I always look forward to it.

Debbi (31:04): I do, too. It’s good to see you, and I’m glad you were on today and very happy to have you on.

Clay (31:13): Yeah, and if anybody would like to get more of what I’m talking about and stuff, I’d love for them to check out my newsletter, a weekly newsletter where I give more tips on writing, marketing, the writer’s life and everything like that. And then we’ve got Killer Nashville coming up. Let’s have everybody check out killernashville.com. My website is claystafford.com. And then for those people who are not able to come to conferences, we’re putting 5,000 sessions up on a new streaming service called The Balanced Writer, and go to thebalancedwriter.com and check that out. So if you can’t afford to go to conferences, then let the conference come to you. Once again, it’s streaming in, not TV anymore. It’s streaming into whatever device you have.

Debbi (32:07): Alright, well thank you so much for that information, Clay.

Clay (32:11): Absolutely.

Debbi (32:12): I’m sure a lot of people appreciate that. I would also like to thank my Patreon supporters as well as my supporters on Substack. Your generosity really does mean the world to me. My thanks to everyone who’s listening. Thank you, Clay, for being here again. It is, as always, enjoyable to talk to you. And if you would, listeners, please leave a review for the podcast, if you enjoyed this episode. They help. So with that, that’s it for me. Until next time, my guest will be Jonathan Whitelaw next time. And until then, take care and happy reading.

Are you a fan? Consider lending your support here!

View Details

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit debbi.substack.com

Hi all! 🙂 We’re back with another season of the Crime Cafe podcast! Our first guest on this season’s roster is Clay Stafford. Our interviews are becoming an annual event. 🙂

Check out our discussion about the state of publishing today and the vast opportunities out there for writers and other creators. Not to mention the importance doing the actual writ…

View Details

My guest for this episode of the Crime Cafe podcast is educator and crime writer Michael Kaufman.

Check out our discussion of his Jen Lu series, featuring a brain implant character named Chandler. What would Philip Marlowe make of that? 🙂 The one question I forgot to ask!

You can download the transcript here.

Debbi (00:52): Hi everyone. Today I have a somewhat unusual guest in that he’s better known for his work in gender studies and his nonfiction books than for his crime fiction. However, along with his work as a lecturer and advisor, he co-founded The White Ribbon Campaign, a worldwide effort by men to end violence against women. And somewhere along the line, he decided to write crime fiction, mysteries. So it’s my pleasure to introduce my guest today, Michael Kaufman. Hi Michael. How you doing?

Michael (01:27): Great to be here with you today.

Debbi (01:29): Fantastic. Good to have you on. Great to have you on. Tell us about how you went from lecturing non-governmental organizations and other huge bodies of people and starting a worldwide movement to fiction writing and to your mystery series in particular.

Michael (01:51): Yeah, I think there’s a couple of answers to that. One is that it reflects what I read many decades ago. Now I was an academic, so I read all that stuff and over the years, just increasingly, I’ve just focused, most of my reading has been in my first love, which is fiction, and a good chunk of that has been crime fiction and mysteries combined with the classics and all of that. The other answer to that I’ve always written fiction. My first novel, not a crime novel, but a straight ahead novel was published by Penguin Random House back a couple decades ago now. And so I’ve always had that interest. But here’s the final answer to that. A lot of the work I’ve done in the United Nations system around the world, different governments, companies, you talk to people during a break over lunch or whatever, and I’d be there to talk about gender equality and inclusion and violence against women and transforming our workplaces and better lives for men and parenting, all sorts of things like that.

(03:02): You sit down with a couple of colleagues and you’d expect the discussion would be really sort of super highbrow and I’m reading the latest whatever philosopher. People say, yeah, I’m reading this great mystery. And one of the things that’s true is that for all of us, no matter what we do, the world of fiction and in the case for many of us crime fiction, it’s a combination of both a wonderful escape, a wonderful entertainment, but also a wonderful way to engage with the world. Good crime novels, the page-turning plot. And we all try to do that, but they also delve into characters. You think of some of your favorite crime writers over the years, you might say, yeah, I loved his or her plotting or their plotting, but you also love the characters they create. You love the worlds. And also in the case of these, some writers, you love the issues that they explore. So for me, this is what I decide to spend more of my energy on is my writing, my fiction writing in particular, and to use that as a vehicle, both to be blunt, to entertain and to give people something that’d be really fun to read and enjoyable and exciting, page-turning, but also to explore different social, cultural, environmental, and political issues. So there’s a multifaceted answer to your straightforward question.

Debbi (04:51): Well, I’m with you a hundred percent on that. I have really tried to do that in some of my books. Yes, I’ve tried. Anyway, let’s see. Tell us about Jen Lu, Is it?

Michael (05:05): Yeah.

Debbi (05:06): So what was it that inspired you to write about her?

Michael (05:10): So my first mystery series, I’ll just weigh them here. My Jen Lu series, The Last Exit and The Last Resort. I wanted to probably just came out of, I was visiting a friend in Washington DC. I’m affiliated there with a research center, and we were taking a walk and riffing on this and that, not rifting riffing on this and that he and I had written a strange novel together called The Afghan Vampires Book Club. There may or may not be vampires in it, but–

Debbi (05:49): I love the title.

Michael (05:51): Yeah, we started talking about the future and it was one of those sort of unexpected one thing leading to another. And we started wondering about basically what was going to be happening in Washington in 10 years in the future. So eight years now, seven years now, six years now, whatever. And of course we could not quite have imagined what did end up happening now, but we’ll see. We still have a few years until we get to 2033 and 34 when these two books are set. What I wanted to do was to not get deep into science fiction. It’s really a cross-genre book because it is set in the future. I didn’t want to spend a lot of energy on technological speculation except for one thing. And that is half of each book is narrated by the bioimplant in Jen Lu’s brain and Jen Lu is a DC cop, and she has this implant in her brain whose name is Chandler, and he’s this sort of wannabe tough guy, but Chandler’s only three years old, so he has a hard time pulling off the tough guy thing. Anyway, each of these books, the first book, The Last Exit deals with, aside from it, hopefully tells an exciting story, but woven into that are issues that explore around income inequality, inequality overall, and the impact of climate change. Now, this was written, I’ll tell you a funny story about this.

Yeah, we started talking about the future and it was one of those sort of unexpected one thing leading to another. And we started wondering about basically what was going to be happening in Washington in 10 years in the future.

(07:30): This was written, I guess it was published in what, 2020? 21? 21. So I was writing it pre-COVID, so as one does, and I had a scene at the beginning and it’s still there where there’s these huge fires in the Appalachian Mountains, and this was before all the fires in California and elsewhere, but these fires in the Appalachian Mountains, DC is covered with smoke, and there’s a scene at the beginning where Jen Lu, she’s been demoted for some reason. She’s on patrol and she puts on her N95 mask. So in the original pre-COVID I wrote, “she put on her N95,” and the note I got from my editor was “What’s an N95?” So I had to change it to, “she put on her N95 mask.” Anyway, so it’s set in the future, but it deals with issues that are very much with us today.

(08:31): Similarly, The Last Resort, the second in the series, a lot more very centrally on climate change, there’s a theme around climate reparations, but also issues around violence against women. So with both of these books, and what I’m really excited about in terms of the response I’ve gotten is people to say they love the voice. They love Chandler’s voice because he narrates half of these books. They love the characters, they turn the pages, but they also like that I’ve been able to in a fun, entertaining way engage with some issues that are, I think, important to a lot of us.

So with both of these books, and what I’m really excited about in terms of the response I’ve gotten is people to say they love the voice. They love Chandler’s voice because he narrates half of these books.

Debbi (09:10): Yes, yes. Sounds like it. Sounds like a remarkable concept there, the whole business with the technology in her brain that really … whoo!

Michael (09:25): Yeah, it’s rather scary actually. I mean–

Debbi (09:27): Rather scary. Yes.

Michael (09:29): Yeah, it’s interesting, because I don’t, the one thing I haven’t done too much yet in the series, and we’ll see where it develops. I’ve touched on here and there, this is really a creepy technology. This is a technology I actually hope does not happen. The way I use it here though is in a fairly light way. It’s just sort of an element of the story. It’s an element of the characters, but it’s one that you can start glimpsing here and there. This is actually a pretty problematic technology, and we’ll see where it goes. Chandler, who’s a character in it. That’s the other thing that just amazed me. We as writers always talk about, there’s that cliche about the characters having a life of their own, and it’s of course total nonsense on one level. But what it does represent, and I’m sure you can relate to this, is that as we write, if we’re really into a story, we actually come to know our characters unconsciously, deeper than we’re actually thinking.

We as writers always talk about, there’s that cliche about the characters having a life of their own, and it’s of course total nonsense on one level. But what it does represent, and I’m sure you can relate to this, is that as we write, if we’re really into a story, we actually come to know our characters unconsciously, deeper than we’re actually thinking.

(10:32): I think unless we’re the most brilliant writer around and has it all worked out, for most of us, our brains are actually doing a better job unconsciously than consciously. And so things happen, the characters do things that of course, we’re creating, well, here’s something, my character, this computer implant, Chandler, I knew he was going to have this sort of tough guy voice. He’s going to be somewhat humorous. I didn’t know he was going to evolve in the course of these books as a character. It hadn’t occurred to me. And that starts happening and he becomes a real live character. And I think that’s part of, in the reviews and Publishers Weekly and elsewhere, I think that’s one thing that the reviewers really talked about.

I knew he was going to have this sort of tough guy voice. He’s going to be somewhat humorous. I didn’t know he was going to evolve in the course of these books as a character. It hadn’t occurred to me.

Debbi (11:19): Yeah. Yeah. That’s fascinating. That is very, very interesting. Raises all sorts of things in terms of multiple personality, stuff like that. Who knows?

Michael (11:32): It’s pretty endless, isn’t it? Yes.

Debbi (11:34): I could go on, but …

Michael (11:36): But no, you’re right. Who is this person now?

Debbi (11:38): Yeah, yeah. Wow. This other voice talking in my head, that’s part of me.

Michael (11:44): I mean, most of us have enough voices in our head as it is.

Debbi (11:47): Writers in particular. Do you think, as gender roles have changed over the years, as our perception of gender has changed, do you think that crime fiction has kept up with the changes? Can we be doing a better job?

Michael (12:08): I think that’s a fantastic question. I mean, one of the things in the world of crime fiction, as we know, some of our great writers have always been, have been the pioneers and have been women have been the pioneers. You think of the Golden Age of crime writing in Britain. I mean, you think first of, well, you think first, Agatha Christie, of course, and Dorothy Sayers and others as well as, of course, different men. But so women have always been prominent as crime writers. I think when we think of different subgenres, you think of the classic thrillers, which still have a bit of a macho, not bit of, still tend to be dominated by a very macho vibe. Actually, my agent is now shopping around a thriller that tries to get around some of those tired cliches of thrillers. But we’ll leave that aside, too. When it comes to, we’ll have another conversation. But I don’t know if it has actually fully adapted. We do see more either, if not themes, references to women, cops being sexually harassed at work. There certainly are themes around physical and sexual abuse of women sometimes. Unfortunately, that’s done in a, I think pretty, I’d say superficial and even exploitive way, a sort of titillating way, which to say the least, I find ugly and wrong and distasteful.

I don’t know if it has actually fully adapted. We do see more either, if not themes, references to women, cops being sexually harassed at work. There certainly are themes around physical and sexual abuse of women sometimes. Unfortunately, that’s done in a, I think pretty, I’d say superficial and even exploitive way …

Debbi (13:44): What the crime writers have most inspired you to get into crime writing?

Michael (13:51): Wow. I am a very eclectic reader. I do particularly love the British, Scottish mystery writers a lot. I think those tend to be my go-to writers, although there are of course, some North American writers who I totally love and adore, and so I won’t start picking out names, but I read quite widely, and I spend a lot of time with the classics, sometimes going way back. I just reread the other day, Woman in White, one of probably the first mystery ever written by Wilkie Collins 160 years ago or whatever it was. And I think that wide reading is really important. I think it’s an important thing as writers, as readers, just to keep it broad.

Debbi (14:59): Yeah, yeah. I’ve noticed a tendency on the part of writers to read broadly anyway. But yeah, I’m sort of the same way. I like to read different things. I need my palette cleansed every now and then of crime writing. Something different something that tastes a little different and comes across a little differently.

Michael (15:21): Well, I hink one reason for this, certainly as a writer, if you’re just immersed in, let’s say contemporary crime fiction from the US, so you’re just trying to keep up with the hundreds and hundreds of books, or at least some of them, you’re going to be in such a little bubble of a certain writing style, a certain subject matter, subject matters, preoccupations, but a very small world. And I think that what that does, it’s not really healthy for your own writing or for the field. It just becomes, you just start reflecting back and forth. We become like AI machines that are just ourselves based on what we read. And there are things that are in contemporary mystery writing that’s very good. There’s other things, I think less so. I’m not enamored with sentences that have to explain every little thing in the sentence and have a lot of adverbs. She gasped with emotion, and it’s like, of course you don’t need to. And I think there’s a bit of a tendency in a lot of contemporary writing, and particularly sadly when we get into the self-published world in which there’s some great stuff, but tends not to get edited as much. And so you don’t have as much of that editorial oversight that can say, no, you don’t need that. Just cut it out.

I think there’s a bit of a tendency in a lot of contemporary writing, and particularly sadly when we get into the self-published world in which there’s some great stuff, but tends not to get edited as much.

Debbi (16:51): Yeah, definitely. An editor is something every self-published author should invest in along with the great cover.

Michael (16:58): Yeah.

Debbi (16:58): Period. That’s my advice.

Michael (17:01): Editors are great. I remember one of my–

Debbi (17:03): They’re your best friends.

Michael (17:06): They are. I remember one of my first experiences, it was actually years ago now, it was a nonfiction project with Ballantine Books and I had written this thing, and the comments back from my editor were, I don’t get this, this doesn’t, whatever. And I just thought, first thought was, how could she be so dumb? Why couldn’t she get that? And then of course, the obvious hit me, which is no, if she doesn’t get it, it means I’m not doing my job as a writer, because she’s obviously a smart woman,

(17:40): Just that dose of reality and someone challenging us to kill our darlings and all the cliches. I mean, luckily for one of my books, speaking of editors, one of my most recent works of fiction is actually a young adult crossover. It’s a fantasy, a present day fantasy. It’s a mystery in there. And under pseudonym Kayden Quinn, because I actually co-wrote it with my longtime editor, and we wrote this story together about a 16-year-old young woman who discovers on the horse farm where she’s working three, the horses are centaurs. It’s a fantasy, but there’s a climate change theme in it. There’s about to be, I won’t get into the details and spoil anything, but basically Andra and the centaurs have got to save everything. And so what was really fun, speak by the editors, is I did most of the writing as we started off, we developed all the ideas together, which was an amazing back and forth, to have someone to work through things.

Just that dose of reality and someone challenging us to kill our darlings and all the cliches.

(18:56): I did the writing and she would edit, but after a while, we were just mashing up back and forth and just learning from each other. And it was Marie Lynn Hammond, who’s a Canadian singer songwriter, and an avid horsewoman, I should add, since this is set in a stable, is a type of great editor who just pushes, pushes. I would have Andra just saying something or doing something. And it just seemed fine. And Mary Lynn would say, well, why did she not get under the covers? I’m just thinking, it doesn’t matter. She’s tired. And Mary Lynn would constantly be saying, even if you don’t tell the reader, you’ve got to know if you want to, what’s going on. So writing Moon Storm Rising was such a wonderful experience and ended up with a book, I think that’s quite magic. There’s magic in it. I mean, one of the things that Andra eventually starts to learn is centaur magic, which you probably didn’t even know existed. And apparently it does. I happen now to be an expert on centaurs.

Debbi (20:08): Awesome. And it sounds like a great collaboration you had going with your editor there.

Michael (20:13): Fantastic.

Debbi (20:15): There’s a lot of good in collaborative writing.

Michael (20:18): It’s very tricky. Several years ago, I co-wrote another strange hybrid book called The Afghan Vampires Book Club, and it’s not a fantasy. There may or may not be vampires in it. We got a beautiful blurb from Jane Fonda on the cover. I mean, it’s a nice book, but it’s about war. It’s a metaphor about war and love and life. And anyway, co-wrote it with a friend, and at some point we decided that our friendship was more important than wrestling over do we like this adverb or adjective? And we just kept deferring to the other. And so it’s a really interesting process. It is hard to write, to write together,

Debbi (21:07): Maybe on a novel more so than what I’ve been doing screenplay writing, which is so collaborative. It really is good to work with another person when you’re working on a screenplay. That’s all I’ll say about that.

Michael (21:22): Well, and as in when you think of screenplays, it’s something that’s ultimately going to be out of your control. And to have that collaboration from the start, I think is so healthy.

Debbi (21:31): Exactly. Yeah.

Michael (21:32): Someone pushing back and creating ideas together. But no, I love that brainstorming together. It’s terrific.

On collaborative writing: I love that brainstorming together. It’s terrific.

Debbi (21:39): I mean, you can have it in your head, but unless it’s on the page, nobody’s going to see it. Nobody’s going to really know what’s going on here.

Michael (21:47): That’s why they call us writers rather than thinkers.

Debbi (21:51): Hopefully we do both.

Michael (21:52): I should tell you quickly, my other recent novel, these two actually ended up being self-published, which I’d never done before, but my agent thought it were so different from my other writing, just let my publishers, been published by Penguin and Random House and Crooked Lane and others. Let them do what they do. And just so these are actually self-published on Amazon of all things. This one is for fans of Dick Francis, that very sort of light mystery writer from England from the Sixties, Seventies, Eighties, who wrote these horse racing themed mysteries. They’re all sort of the same. But anyway, I thought I’m going to copy his formula, do the same thing he did, but in the world of golf of all things. Anyway, The Perfect Lie, again under a pseudonym, Joshua Slate, came out of that thinking. Just sort of fun. I was talking earlier about the political and the social themes of my Jen Lu series set in Washington DC, 10 years in the future. This is pretty straightforward stuff, and this is just turn the page entertainment and have fun with it.

I was talking earlier about the political and the social themes of my Jen Lu series set in Washington DC, 10 years in the future. This is pretty straightforward stuff, and this is just turn the page entertainment and have fun with it.

Debbi (23:04): Cool. Well, that’s always fun. It is always nice to have a read that’s just easy and fun.

Michael (23:10): Yeah.

Debbi (23:11): So cool. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up? Do you have any advice for people who would like to write for a living, for instance?

Michael (23:22): I think one of the main things is, and the two classic answers are the best answers, and that is to read, read, read, read. And as we were both saying earlier, read diverse. If you’re into fiction, great, you can just read fiction. But the world of fiction, don’t just get stuck in one genre or one period. You’ll just stymie yourself from the beginning. So read as broadly as you can. Work at it. Don’t be scared of the big books of the classics. Actually, I have a little series I started on Instagram. I can’t remember if I already mentioned that, but if not, this little series saying, don’t be scared of big books on my Instagram account. So read. The other, of course, is just write, write, and write. I’m not one into this, you have to write a certain number of words a day. That’s not my, that’s not me.

I think one of the main things is, and the two classic answers are the best answers, and that is to read, read, read, read. … don’t just get stuck in one genre or one period. You’ll just stymie yourself from the beginning. So read as broadly as you can. Work at it. Don’t be scared of the big books of the classics.

(24:19): When I’m into a project, I could start first thing in the morning and then at midnight I have to force myself to stop. And other days it’s not what I’m doing. So I am not saying you have to crank out a certain number of words a day, but writing is not just an art, it’s a craft. You have to work at it. And part of working at it is that it gets into nothing, trying to work with, if you can just scrounge up the money or whatever, but hire good editors. When you show friends, friends just love what you write. And you know what, sometimes you’ll have some friends who are good critics too, and that’s fantastic, but most people are not editors. Most people are not book critics. So get that support.

(25:09): Don’t be in too much of a hurry. Particularly if you’re querying agents, you don’t get many shots at it. And if you’re sending out things to your list of whatever, 30, 50 agents, once they’ve seen you and turned you down once, your next, when you rewrite that book in a half a year, they’re not going to be interested. So be patient, make sure you’ve got a good, if you’re writing a book or stories that you’re going to get there. Unlike being a professional athlete, writers do not peak in their 18 to 25-year-old. There’s a few prodigies that are there, but most writers, they’re peaking in their thirties, forties, fifties, whatever. So just hang in there, learn the craft of writing, develop your own view of the world. Read and learn to, when I said read, learn to read like a writer, I find when I read a story, I just get so into the story. I’m not reading like a writer, so I have to sort of slow down and think about how did the writer make me feel this? How did I realize this is happening when they haven’t said so? And to really just try to slow down a bit. So yes, reading, writing, getting criticism and challenge are all really, really important.

Debbi (26:41): Yes, I couldn’t have said it better. Thank you so much, and I would like to thank you for being here today with us to talk about this. I appreciate your being here. Thanks.

Michael (26:52): Well, thank you. In your 10th year, which is amazing doing this, and best of wishes for your own writing and just keep up the great work.

Debbi (27:02): Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. For those of you listening, please consider leaving a review, if you enjoyed the episode on your favorite podcast app. Also consider supporting us on Patreon where we offer bonus episodes, early access to episodes without ads, excerpts from my work, and reduced prices on various books and other items in my store on Patreon. On that note, our next guest will be Priscilla Paton. Until then, take care and happy reading.

View Details

My guest for this episode of the Crime Cafe podcast is internationally bestselling crime writer Gregg Hurwitz.

Check out our discussion of his Orphan X series and his other projects.

Download a copy of the transcript here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. It’s my pleasure to have with me today. The New York Times number one internationally best-selling author of 24 thrillers, including the Orphan X Series. His novels have won numerous literary awards and been published in 33 languages. He’s also written screenplays, television scripts, comics, and poetry. He is actively working against polarization in politics and culture, which I think is wonderful, by writing op-eds for the Wall Street Journal, The Guardian and other publications. My guest today is Gregg Hurwitz. Hi, Gregg. So happy to see you here.

Gregg: Hi. Good to see you too. Thank you for having me on.

Debbi: It’s my pleasure, believe me. So, tell us about the Orphan X series and your tenth book in particular, Nemesis. What inspired you to write this series?

Gregg: Well, I have a lot of friends who were in the special operations community, and over the years hanging out with them, I did a lot of research with them through the early books, sneaking onto demolition ranges with Navy SEALs to blow up cars, getting on all these different kinds of weapons, and I was always intrigued when they talked about black operations and how they were funded and how they worked. And I had this moment one time of just thinking how amazing would it be if there was a government program that took kids who were unwanted out of foster homes and took them off the radar completely and raised them up and trained them in silos separate from everybody else to be assassins who could do things that America can’t do, who are essentially expendable. And so, that’s what happens to my lead character when he’s 12.

I have a lot of friends who were in the special operations community, and over the years hanging out with them, I did a lot of research with them through the early books …

His name is Evan Smoak. He’s taken out of a foster home in East Baltimore, and he’s raised by a handler, who in fact becomes his father figure and actually loves this kid. His name is Jack Johns. And he tells Evan, “The hard part is not going to be making you a killer. The hard part will be keeping you human.” And so Evan, basically, those are two directives on a collision course. And at some point, those things explode before the series even starts and Evan goes off on his own, flees the program, and basically becomes someone who helps people. He’s like an assassin, a pro bono assassin. He helps people in desperate need who have nowhere else to turn who can call an encrypted phone number, 18552 nowhere, that you can call and you can see who answers. And he picks up the phone and says, “Do you need my help?” And if they need his help, he will go anywhere and do anything to help and protect them.

Debbi: Wow. In some ways it reminds me of the old show, The Saint. He’s a rich person. I don’t know about Evan, but this person is rich, and he uses his wealth to help people out in all sorts of terrible situations, using all sorts of means.

Gregg: There is an aspect like that of Evan. He has a bunch of money still from when he was in the program because he was given a lot of resources that were stashed in non-reporting countries. And so when he fled the program, he had all this hidden cash put away and he can use that, his resources and his highly unusual skill set to help people.

Debbi: Wow. That’s really a remarkable concept. I love it. As I understand it, the series has kind of an overarching plot to it in terms of an arc. Do you have a plan for how many books you’re going to write, and do you have a series Bible?

Gregg: I don’t have a concrete plan, but Nemesis is the tenth. And as much as if you read the books and you’re a series reader, you’ll find all sorts of, I hope, richness and texture throughout the books as Evan grows. But I make sure that in every book is an onboarding point for new readers, so you can read them all as stand-alones and there’s just more to them if you read them together. And I am not sure how many I’m going to write. Right now, I’m enjoying it so much that certainly the next one and the next next one and the next next one are going to be Orphan X books, and that’s about as far ahead as I’ve thought.

I make sure that in every book is an onboarding point for new readers, so you can read them all as stand-alones and there’s just more to them if you read them together.

Debbi: Wow. Well, that’s thinking far ahead and that’s good. Let’s see. Did you come up with the series kind of completely thought out in terms of where you wanted to go, or do you kind of improvise as you go?

Gregg: It’s a weird combination. It’s funny. When I look back on the series, there’s been this very logical progression through the books that I didn’t necessarily plan. I knew I had different stories. Certainly when I sold the series, I had an idea already then that became the premise for the sixth book. I knew once we knew Evan well enough that one day when he gets that phone call and he answers and says, “Do you need my help,” someone’s going to say, “Evan, it’s your mother,” and it’s the mother who he’d never met. So I had sort of these different plots that were put out there, but I didn’t have it all neatly ordered and I’m filling it in because I discover so much when I’m writing. The characters come to life in different ways and I tend to follow the story, the stories themselves, and I’ve learned a lot about him through the writing. And so, it sort of is a combination of both.

Debbi: Yeah,. It’s interesting how that happens. It’s like the best laid plans get ruined when your characters start to come to life and tell you, “No, you want me to do this now.”

Gregg: Yeah.

Debbi: Kind of like that.

Gregg: As I say, no battle plans survives first contact with the enemy.

Debbi: There you go. How did you get into writing comics?

Gregg: Well, I loved comics. I started to read them very intensely when I was in about seventh and eighth grade. And at some point into my career, I’d written I think six books. The executive editor of Marvel, Axel Alonso, who is now a very close friend, had come across some of the books and was a fan, and he basically called and asked me if I wanted to pull a character out of the Marvel Vaults and reinvent them and to do it. And so, it was an amazing call. Writing comics for Marvel is a lot like when you have that rich kid who lives up the street from you, has all the best toys, and you get to go to his house to play with all of his toys. That was what it was like working for Marvel. I wrote Punisher. I wrote Moon Knight. I had Spider-Man swing through Moon Knight at one point. It was amazing. I wrote Wolverine. I got to just write these characters that had meant so much to me. And then later, I crossed over to DC and did a long run on Batman.

Writing comics for Marvel is a lot like when you have that rich kid who lives up the street from you, has all the best toys, and you get to go to his house to play with all of his toys.

Debbi: Oh wow. That is so cool.

Gregg: It was really cool.

Debbi: Have you ever met Michael Uslan?

Gregg: Michael who?

Debbi: Michael Uslan, who bought the rights to Batman.

Gregg: Oh. Yes. Yeah, I do know him. I’ve met him in passing.

Debbi: Yeah. Nice guy.

Gregg: Yeah.

Debbi: I heard him speak once. Really, really nice guy and very interesting.

Gregg: Yes.

Debbi: So now you’re writing op-eds for the Wall Street Journal on polarization and politics and culture, and what a time to be doing it, when the time when it was most needed. What approach do you take in trying to take on this topic?

Gregg: Well, it’s interesting. I’ve had a lot of pretty intense forays into the culture since about 2015 when I noted a lot of increasing signs for polarization and extremism. And I think one of the ways that I’m effective is I’m not actually that interested in politics, though I’ve done a great deal of work in politics, and I’ve built a lot of content. I’ve made commercials and spots, many of them around unity, centrism, and moderation that have multiple hundreds of millions of views. And so, I’ve had quite a robust intervention in the culture. And I think part of what works is that I’m not ideological. I’m not particularly partisan, and I’m not that interested really in politics. What I’m much more interested in is getting to understand different perspectives, and I think being a novelist has helped me in that immensely because, as a novelist, what you’re trying to do is to pull on the mask of a character and to see the world through their eye holes to really inhabit and embody them.

I’ve had a lot of pretty intense forays into the culture since about 2015 when I noted a lot of increasing signs for polarization and extremism.

And so, that’s what my training is much more than trying to be right on the basis of a partisan set of beliefs that are locked. And so, I try to embody and understand different people, people who make meaning in different ways, people who have different belief structures, people who have different political priorities, and then to find those points of connection to bring them together. Because if we have different types of people who make meaning in different ways working together, that’s our best chance to sort of strengthen the country and our system and our institutions and help us navigate complex change. And so, bringing a novelist mindset to this I found is very, very effective.

I try to embody and understand different people, people who make meaning in different ways, people who have different belief structures, people who have different political priorities, and then to find those points of connection to bring them together.

Debbi: That’s great. That’s really great, taking that approach.

Gregg: Thank you.

Debbi: I agree with you completely too. It’s like looking at things from different perspectives, being able to see the way somebody else will perceive something and acknowledge that, simply acknowledge that.

Gregg: Yeah. And to try and engage in reality, whether that’s talking to people or putting forth policies. If they don’t have engagement on the ground… One of the things I’ve learned, I have a refrain that reality is where ideology goes to die. Once you have your feet or your bearings that are engaged in the real world on any initiative, whether it’s messaging or specific policy, when you deal with reality, you quickly lose the ideological moorings that sometimes ossify thoughts and make them more rigid.

I have a refrain that reality is where ideology goes to die. Once you have your feet or your bearings that are engaged in the real world on any initiative … you quickly lose the ideological moorings that sometimes ossify thoughts and make them more rigid.

Debbi: Yeah. So what kind of writing schedule do you keep?

Gregg: I get up. It’s a wonderfully boring life when things are calmer. I get up and I just sort of sit and I write first thing in the morning. I take a lunch break. I write more. I basically write all day every day. I have a lot more meetings now. I do some screen writing. I have other stuff that can kind of interfere. But the biggest thing for me is if I can get a solid four-hour chunk first thing in the morning, everything works out. Then I can come back in the afternoon often for an hour or two, maybe a little bit more time. If I’m under deadline or towards the end of something, I can really push out those days, eight, 10 hours sometimes even.

Debbi: Wow, that’s impressive, especially with all the emphasis on marketing they put on authors.

Gregg: Yeah.

Debbi: I’m telling you. So how much research do you do when you write your novels?

Gregg: I do a great deal actually. I’ve fired every gun Evan Smoke uses. I mentioned earlier, I’ve gone on to demolition ranges with SEALs to blow up cars. I’ve gone-

Debbi: That sounds like fun.

Gregg: It’s really fun. I’ve gone undercover in mind control colts. I’ve swam with sharks. I’ve gone down class four white water rapids in Mexico. I try to go anywhere that the action is because if I experience it firsthand myself and sort of smell the smells and feel the air against my skin, I can convey it often in a different way that brings it to life much better for my audience and my readers, and it helps me avoid tropes. It helps me avoid the sort of cliched reactions to scenes. I did some training in mixed martial arts fighting, which is not to suggest that I’m any good at it, but I did that before I started the Orphan X series just to understand how hand to hand might work, and there’s a particular sensation, for instance, to getting choked out. There’s different sensations that if I experience I can write about and breathe life into differently than if I weren’t willing to put myself on the line.

I’ve gone undercover in mind control colts. I’ve swam with sharks. I’ve gone down class four white water rapids in Mexico. I try to go anywhere that the action is because if I experience it firsthand … I can convey it often in a different way that brings it to life much better for my audience and my readers, and it helps me avoid tropes.

Debbi: Are you more of an outliner or a pantser when it comes to actually writing the books?

Gregg: I’m very oddly kind of right between. I have what I call a rolling outline. It’s a living and breathing outline, and so I have a bunch of plot points, snatches of dialogue. It’s in a big file. It’s filled with bullet points. It’s often 20 pages or so before I start 20 to 30 pages. And as I start to write the book, I shape up out of the clay some of these sort of scenes and themes and whack them into different places. And the whole time I’m writing, that outline is growing and evolving until at some point it shrinks and is consumed into the 400-page manuscript.

Debbi: Yeah. I think a lot of us take the hybrid approach, so to speak. It’s not all pantsing and it’s not all strictly outlined. It’s kind of like you said, bullet points with stuff in between that kind of takes you from one point to another.

Gregg: Yeah. You want to be open to opportunity. I discover a lot writing-

Debbi: Absolutely.

Gregg: … and I’ll think about things that need to change. And so, I have to always make sure it’s flexible that I’m not sort of rigidly filling in and painting by number something that I’ve conceived of at the outset before I’ve got myself up to the elbows and the clay of it.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah, I hear that. Let’s see. What author has most inspired you to be a writer?

Gregg: Probably Stephen King, who I started reading in fifth grade. I remember I was struck by how amazing it was that this guy who’s typing in Maine could put together a collection of common words in an uncommon manner that could elicit such strong emotion in me. It was like a magical power, and I wanted to do that.

I studied a lot of Shakespeare too. I have a highly practical Masters in Shakespearean tragedy, which is useful because employers were just beating down my door with job offers after I got that. But I was writing my first novel when I did that, and Shakespeare has had a great impact on me in a lot of ways because particularly the tragedies, they’re very close to early commercial thrillers. They’re tales of lust, intrigue, and murder that are highly structured. They’re narrative driven. They’re often based on pre-existing themes and ideas, and they’re designed to put assets and chairs to sell out the Globe Theatre to represent every quadrant of society. And so in a lot of ways, reading those and studying those make logical sense in a certain way for the types of writing that I do, even though it doesn’t on face value seem as logical.

Debbi: I got to agree with you about Shakespeare. Shakespeare is truly a writer who hit all the right emotional points in terms of reaching a reader or a viewer, in the case of watching his plays. When I was in high school, I literally asked… I don’t remember which play it was we did, maybe it was Macbeth that we covered, but afterwards I went to the teacher and said, “Can we do some more Shakespeare?” And he’s like, “What?” He acted like I had just said something really, really weird and bizarre, and like there was something wrong with me. I said, “Can we do it just faster? Because we don’t have to go over every single word. I can figure out what he’s saying.”

Gregg: Yeah, there’s this sort of cadence to his writing, and once you fall into it-

Debbi: Exactly.

Gregg: … You can be swept along. Some people have a hard time entering it, but I think once you get it, if you get the ear for it and you get the rhythm of it, he’s just wonderful.

Debbi: He is wonderful. Absolutely. I got to talk to you about these little parodies that I wrote of Shakespeare plays. I made them hard-boiled mysteries.

Gregg: Wow.

Debbi: Yeah. Hamlet hires a detective to prove that his uncle killed his father, essentially, and the detective asks, “How do you know this?” “Well, my father’s ghost told me.” “Oh, I see.” It’s a little bit cryptic.

Gregg: Not a great chain of evidence.

Debbi: Yeah, yeah. It’s kind of like something like, this guy’s crazy, but okay, he’s got money. I’ll take the case. King of Denmark? Sure, why not? Prince, little Prince. Anyway, now that I’ve gotten off on that track, what advice would you give to anyone who is interested in having a writing career, other than reading Shakespeare?

Gregg: Schedule and discipline. You got to get your ass in the chair time. It’s so important to have it.

Debbi: Absolutely.

Gregg: Don’t be afraid to get down a vomit draft. A lot of people get paralyzed with self-criticism, but if you write anything, even if you just throw it on the page, you can make it better, and you cannot make a blank page better. So if you carve out the time and you move forward no matter what, you can always fix it, and you’ll be learning, however slowly and imperfectly. At least you’re tilted in the direction of starting to produce work that you can assess and criticize and edit and cut and rewrite.

A lot of people get paralyzed with self-criticism, but if you write anything, even if you just throw it on the page, you can make it better, and you cannot make a blank page better.

Debbi: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you have to just get started at some point and be willing to take criticism when it’s given, when it’s given in the proper way, informed, constructive criticism. But you just have to get started and get used to the idea of taking constructive criticism.

Gregg: That’s right.

Debbi: Yeah, for sure. Let’s see. Is there anything else you would like to tell us before we finish up?

Gregg: No, I think we’re good. I’m happy to welcome new readers on board to the Orphan X series. Nemesis is the tenth. In a lot of ways, it’s a big culmination of the book where Evan for the first time finds himself up against one of his closest friends, and so there’s a combative aspect, but there’s a really deep emotional core because what does it mean if you’re up against your closest friend and the stakes are life and death, and it’s the first time he’s really had that in his path to becoming more human, even as somebody who was trained to be an assassin.

Debbi: Well, thank you so much for being here. I just want to thank you and good luck with your op-eds and all those efforts.

Gregg: Thank you so much, Debbi. Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you for having me on.

Debbi: It was my pleasure, believe me. And on that note, I just want to thank all my listeners too. Make sure that you leave a review if you enjoyed this episode. It helps. Also, we do have a Patreon page where we offer perks to Patreon supporters, so do check that out. On that note, we’ll have another episode next week, and until then, just take care, and happy reading.

Check out our Patreon page!

View Details

My guest for this episode of the Crime Cafe podcast is award-winning author of crime fiction and work in other genres, Melissa Yi.

Check out our discussion about her plans for the Hope Sze medical thriller series, as well as her young adult, romance, and fantasy writing, along with her experiences with Kickstarter. And get to know a bit more about Cthulhu.

You can download a copy of the transcript here.

Debbi: Hi everyone, this is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense, and thriller writing. I’m your host, Debbi Mack. My guest today is an author who follows the maxim, write what you know. She’s an emergency doctor who writes a medical crime series. She also has been nominated for the Arthur Ellis and Derringer awards for her work. She’s also written in a wide variety of genres, including young adult, romance, science fiction, and fantasy.

It’s my great pleasure to have with me today, Melissa Yi. Hi Melissa, how are you doing today?

Melissa: I’m so good, Debbi. I just want to tell you that I did end up winning the Derringer Award.

Debbi: Oh, that’s awesome. Excellent. Way to go.

Melissa: Thank you. One year nominated, one year win, you know, these things come and go, but when you win, you should take it.

Debbi: Oh, yeah, yeah. I didn’t know that. So I’m glad you mentioned that. Yeah, definitely mention it. So about your latest book, it’s a young adult novel, isn’t it?

Melissa: Yeah, I’ll see if I can get it to stay in frame. Okay, great. I love it. The Red Rock Killer.

Debbi: Yes. Yes. Tell us about it. What inspired you to write this book?

Melissa: Okay, well, did you know that the International Thriller Writers every year they have the Best First Sentence Contest? And I look, yes, and it’s free to enter. I think you have to be a member though. And membership is free too. And so then they have all these bestsellers who will go through and then pick out their favorite sentence. And I looked at some of the sentences and I was like, okay, I’m going to write one, too.

So I wrote, just trying to remember correctly. “The summer I turned 14, my mother told me I could do whatever I wanted. So I decided to find the Red Rock Serial Killer.” And after I sent it in, I was just like, what a strange sentence.

So I wrote, just trying to remember correctly. “The summer I turned 14, my mother told me I could do whatever I wanted. So I decided to find the Red Rock Serial Killer.” And after I sent it in, I was just like, what a strange sentence. Like, really? Why would a 13 year old be looking for a serial killer? I mean, okay, if it’s for a podcast or something, but in real life, like, it’s just sort of odd. But I kept writing it a bit. And I was like, you know, obviously, she wants to do this. She has a mother like, I just kept writing. And then that sentence won the best first sentence from Allison Brennan, who’s a New York Times bestseller. So I was like, awesome.

Yeah, this is amazing. And then shortly after that, they had a contest where R.L. Stein and some other judges were going to pick the best middle grade crime novel that was written by a Black, Indigenous or person of color. And the prize was to come to Thriller Fest in New York and $1,000. So I was like, oh, I already have this book that I started, kind of out of nowhere.

So I’m just going to keep going with it. And as I was writing, I was like, okay, her name is Edan, which is a name that means fire and it’s spelled E-D-A-N. And her mother thought that this was a good name for somebody who was born in the desert, because when I looked it up, I didn’t even know where the Red Rocks were.

But my choices were, oh, you could basically be in Quebec, Canada, or you could be in Las Vegas. And I already have a series that’s set in Quebec. So I was like, we’re going to Las Vegas. And that was fun for me, like, you know, it’s a different country and because I’m Canadian and stuff.

And she had two best friends. And one of them is Callie Yang, and she’s a swimmer and she’s a good girl, you know, like she’s the teacher’s pet kind of thing. And the other one is Barstow. And he’s pretty well off, like he’s the best. Well, he’s the most well off out of the three of them, which is a bit of a bone of contention with him and Edan, not because they want it, but just because Edan’s mom is a single mom and she doesn’t have as much money. And he loves video, but they both love video games, like they’re always playing Stardew Valley and stuff. So I’m like, OK, I have these three teenagers who are going to end up finding a serial killer.

And what happens? And in this case, it was they end up going hiking for Callie’s birthday and find a barrel in the desert. So there’s not, you know, explicit blood and guts or anything like that. They don’t end up seeing a body, which makes it more middle grade and younger YA. But it’s just a lot of fun. I love her.

There’s actually also a finalist for the, I’m going to have to think of the correct name. It’s the Claymore Award for the unpublished manuscript for the Killer Nashville. So people really enjoy Edan if they meet her. And she’s also the cousin of Hope, who is my main protagonist. Although they haven’t met each other yet. So that part is not done. But for now, she’s an innocent 13-year-old finding bodies in the desert.

So people really enjoy Edan if they meet her. And she’s also the cousin of Hope, who is my main protagonist. Although they haven’t met each other yet. So that part is not done. But for now, she’s an innocent 13-year-old finding bodies in the desert.

Debbi: Wow. Very interesting. Fascinating how a contest like that where you came up with a single line led to a book.

Melissa: I am the kind of person that I just love randomness. So if you show me something, I will try and make something out of it. But you know how they say, like when you’re writing poetry, one line drops from the sky. This is a book that felt like it kind of dropped from the sky.

Debbi: I kind of know the feeling. Yeah, I get where you’re coming from. I wrote my own YA pretty much the same way. It was like a line occurred to me and then I kept going. Weird.

How do you choose which genre you want to write in? Like you’ve done many genres. And do you kind of like pick a story and say this is good for sci-fi or fantasy or YA? Or do you explore the genre and come up with the story?

Melissa: Stories first for me. Yeah, I’m actually not good at genre. It’d be like. You know, some people are really into fashion and they’re very precise. Like, for example, one of my friends said she met a woman who only wore red or chartreuse. And that’s all she had in her house. Like that’s how she, like it made her very happy to have only these tones. That was so foreign to me. Like, I mean, I love like so many colours, like the brighter, the better.

You know, again, like people like of all kinds, a variety of animals, like just a lot of things like foods and spices, like just variety makes me happy. So I actually have difficulty seeing genre, like if people are like. You know, for example, I show like somebody’s like I was at a book fair and a woman was like, “Oh, I only read romance.” So I showed her Wolf Ice, which is a werewolf thriller and romance. And she was horrified. And she was like, “I said romance.” And I’m like, yes, it is. But OK, I guess we have different ideas of what romance is, you know?

Debbi: Yeah, exactly.

Melissa: But for me, actually, I am trying to be a little bit more strategic about it just in that I have realized that medical thrillers are not as big a market as I would like them to be. So even though Hope is now a supernatural thriller series, like I’m doing The Seven Deadly Sins and I’m working on Sloth. So I’m bringing in Cthulhu.

So these things, it should bring more people, but it won’t necessarily bring more people. Well, I’m just going to say romance is the biggest genre. So I am also trying that out for 2025. I want to keep my hand in mystery thrillers, but also do romance.

Debbi: That’s cool. I mean, the fact that you’re aware of what it is you like to do and what you do and that you don’t let arbitrary rules define you, I think. I think that’s pretty cool.

Melissa: It is. I wish I could be cool and marketable.

Debbi: Well, there’s a market for people who are looking exactly for something different, you know, something like, say, romance, but a little bit different or something like crime, but a little bit different. Like definitely a 13-year-old going after a serial killer, investigating a serial killer is pretty different.

Melissa: Yeah, I hope so. I hope I can find people who are, you know, who love change and innovation instead of, you know, rereading the same.

I hope I can find people who are, you know, who love change and innovation instead of, you know, rereading the same.

Debbi: I agree. I think, you know, I think there are people out there who are looking for that kind of thing, honestly, because, you know, after a while, you get tired of reading just the same old tropes over and over, sort of like television, you know, the way they’ll take something and they’ll beat a trope to death. And it’s like, yeah, it’s a new twist on this. Yeah, they can do it. They do it, too. But it’s like, you know, you got to look for that stuff. Yeah, so I was going to ask you a question about something else, but it’s now escaped my mind. What are you working on now? That’s the question I want to ask you.

Melissa: Oh, amazing. Yeah. So that’s a perfect lead-in.

Yes. So I am working on Sloth. OK, I’m going to try and find. So this time what I did was I ended up pairing with an artist, a local artist named Sarah Leger to work on art with the book, so it may look blurry. It is actually blurry. And I think she wanted that.

Like, so the idea with Lovecraft and Cthulhu and these monsters, it’s not explicit horror. It’s more dread and implication and, frankly, slowly going mad. And so I my husband was the one who suggested it, actually, because I was like, you know, in each of these Deadly Sin books, Hope fights a different monster.

[T]he idea with Lovecraft and Cthulhu and these monsters, it’s not explicit horror. It’s more dread and implication and, frankly, slowly going mad.

And I need a monster that symbolizes sloth or laziness. And he was like, “What about Cthulhu? He’s sleeping.” I was like, oh, OK. I actually hadn’t read H.P. Lovecraft, but I was like, let me give it let me give it a try. And I liked the idea. And so I ended up working with two different artists. I’m just going to show off the art for. OK … trying, trying, trying.

Debbi: Other direction.

Melissa: OK, I’m going to do, I’m going to do the big one.

Debbi: There you go.

Melissa: So this one is no, no. Yes. OK.

Debbi: There it is.

Melissa: This one is by Ben Baldwin in the UK, and I do find it amusing. OK, if we can just stay in focus … with the idea, I told him that this one is going to be on neurology. And I like the idea of this tentacled creature attacking a skull. So that’s what he came up with. And there I did a series that goes. So that’s the shoggoth, but it’s actually the dust cover. So there’s probably no way this will all stay in focus. But anyway.

Debbi: I can see most of it. It looks good.

Melissa: Yeah. So it is cool. So this was the first time I worked with artists, which was really neat. And that I ended up writing poems as well as the novel, and so the poems will be in a book called Cthulhu’s Cheerleader, and then the actual book is called Killing Me Slothly.

So the Kickstarter backers can get both of them together in a special edition and everybody else can buy them separately as desired. So I’m working on that. But to be honest, Sloth was just, it’s just so tough. Like it was like, it’s tired and I’m tired. It was just actually sucking out my brain. No, I think I am just, I’m just revising the ending. So I’m hoping that will be done soon. And then I’m also working on romance, which I am just trying to hit all of the tropes. So I have a group of hockey players who are set in Glengarry.

So I don’t know if you know this, small towns are very big in like. Well, there’s it’s one set of romance and I live in a small town that is so cute, like just for example, when we moved in, one of our neighbors made us an apple pie. Another neighbor gave us homemade jam. And a set of pasta plates, which I can assure you they did not do in Montreal.

Like we just, I think, never spoke to our neighbors, you know, so it’s just, and our like our mail carrier, she makes little. Like she gives our dogs treats if she sees them, but like at Christmas, for example, she makes up little treat bags for them and she makes a Christmas card and she specifically names them like and she does. I think she’s made over 100 of these bags for all the dogs on her route.

Debbi: Wow.

Melissa: Yes. And that’s just normal where I live. So other people are like …

Debbi: That’s so small townish.

Melissa: I know.

Debbi: It’s very quaint.

Melissa: It’s so cute. Like I had read online that they were like, OK, well, we have these small towns and people like to romanticize them, but it’s really sad.

And real small towns aren’t like that. And I was like, I actually do live in that small town. So I’m going to try and transmit that through Fire and Ice and the rest of the books in that series, the Glengarry Guards.

Debbi: That’s really nice. I like to hear about happy small towns because I see so many depressed ones on television mostly. They really, really like to dump on small towns.

Melissa: Yeah. And of course, like that’s what people click on and watch. So, I mean, they’re not going to show the happy endings a lot. Like you might get just one one heartwarming thing before the end of the hour. But I was like, you know what? I’m lucky that I live in this place where people care.

Debbi: That’s awesome.

Melissa: I’m going to share a bit of that in 2025.

Debbi: All right. I’m ready to move to Canada.

Melissa: OK, yeah. Come on over.

Debbi: All right. All right. For many reasons that I won’t go into right now.

Melissa: Yeah, I got it. I got it.

Debbi: Oh, boy. Let’s see.

Melissa: Canada feels the same. I shouldn’t speak for all of Canada. My part of Canada feels the same.

Debbi: Let’s see. Do you plan to how many more in the Hope Zse series do you think you’re going to write? You’ve got the Seven Deadly Sins going, right?

Melissa: Yeah. So I’m going to finish the Seven Deadly Sins. That’s the plan.

So Sloth is number three. And then I’m going to do Lust next, which is number four. But depending how things go with romance, I may like space out the books a bit more because I know that some people, like who are much more business minded, they’ll just stop a series.

So Sloth is number three. And then I’m going to do Lust next, which is number four. But depending how things go with romance, I may like space out the books a bit more …

I’ll be like, OK, sorry, this doesn’t work or this has to take a back burner. And for me, I was like. There are seven deadly sins. Like it’s kind of weird to stop after three. In my case, it was actually a Kickstarter level where people could choose that they were going to be in a future book. So I have at least three people that I need to put in future books. So the series will continue, but perhaps just at a slightly slower pace.

Debbi: When did you start doing a Kickstarter?

Melissa: With Wrath. I’m just going to show you all my books. So with the first deadly sin. And I’ll just give a Kickstarter tip for any crime people who are looking at it. So there are people who do super well at it, like Sara Rosett, just beloved, you know, put up her historical 1920s mysteries. And it was like, yeah.

But not all mysteries have done as well. And from what I understand, historical, like even historical romance is not considered a huge market. Kickstarter loves fantasy and science fiction. So if you can get that angle in, that would be helpful. So it just so happened that in this series, I started introducing supernatural elements. Well, perhaps suitably this this one had ghosts in it. So, yeah, there you go. I’ll just put it with my face. Why not?

Kickstarter loves fantasy and science fiction. So if you can get that angle in, that would be helpful. So it just so happened that in this series, I started introducing supernatural elements.

So it’s not, I wouldn’t say, a huge selling point, but it’s they do like to have that. And I think they’ve talked about how Brandon Sanderson, you probably heard. Now, I can’t remember how much he made. Forty five million dollars or something like something enormous like that my mind cannot grasp. And so he brought a bunch of fantasy fans to that sphere who are interested in seeing other books like that or in that realm. Or, you know, there’s a market for it.

Debbi: Fascinating.

Melissa: And this may change, too, like right. So as you bring in more fans, they may do that. But just it’s not a given that just like, oh, I put a crime book on and we I make tons of money like exactly.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah. People don’t realize how much effort goes into doing something like crowdfunding.

Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. People don’t realize like creative work in general, how much work goes into it.

Debbi: Exactly right. Yeah. They just don’t realize. How do you manage to balance your medical work with your fictional work?

Melissa: Yeah, I do. I did something very different from most, which is that I. Well, there are a few things. I prioritize writing, so I felt a little guilty when I graduated, like I told my husband, I was like, oh, you know, now I can finally make some money. But I really want to write because, you know, I’ve been kind of starving to do this during my whole medical training and even our undergrad, right, because you’re just working so hard to get into medical school and beyond. And he was like, “Do it.”

My husband is a man of very few words, but he always encouraged me to write or just he’s just been like, why not? Like he’s not somebody who will like give speeches or anything, but he’s just like, I don’t see a problem. So I’m like, OK, so my parents really thought that was strange. And like, I’m sure my classmates and stuff would not understand why I would do this, you know, financially and stuff. It just it makes no sense. But I just I, you know, in the end, I told people I’m just like other people can run an emergency room, but only I can write my stories.

Debbi: That’s right.

Melissa: And in the end, you die and you have to be happy with whatever you did.

Debbi: Exactly.

Melissa: I just like I got to prioritize my writing.

Debbi: I know the feeling. And I don’t know if you’re familiar with this book at all. Range. This is a great book. I’m recommending it to the entire world.

Melissa: OK, what’s it about?

Debbi: It’s about how generalists triumph in a specialized world. I think you might like it.

Melissa: I would totally be into that.

Debbi: Yeah, you would be into that. It totally resonated with me. I went to law school and then decided to be a writer. So it’s like I trained as a writer. I was a journalism major, but then didn’t end up going into it. But then I did go into journalism, but that was later.

Melissa: It’s obviously, you know, you love words. You love thinking deeply about issues. You know, these things go together. Like in our world, we don’t think of them. But actually, you know, journalism and law. Yeah. Why not? It’s very verbal, intelligent.

Debbi: Exactly. And and also it helps that I have a supportive spouse as well. He was very much like, you should be writing.

Melissa: Oh, fantastic.

Debbi: Isn’t that nice when it works out that way?

Melissa: Yes. Actually, you know, I used to be part of this blog called Mothers in Medicine, and one of them, her ground rock recommendation was marry well.

Debbi: Mm-hmm.

Melissa: Because what you choose makes such a fundamental difference. And, you know, I have heard repeatedly that the number one financial determinant for you as a woman is not your education.

It’s not how hard you work. It is your partner. So even now in 2025, you have to be very, very mindful. Like a lot of time, your partner will drag you down. You know, you’ll end up with a bazillion kids or if you’re career minded, you’ll have to pay alimony or palimony. Like just it can be a real millstone. You have to be smart about it.

Debbi: Exactly. These are important choices. Think about it before you do it.

What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in having a writing career? Apart from choosing your spouse or partner well.

Melissa: So, that’s one. I always say read, read, read, write, write, write, because there are a lot of people are attracted to writing, but they’re not actually interested in reading books. And that doesn’t work. Like you have to love stories and words in this medium, like it’s not the same as TV.

You know, you need to love books. If you love TV, then you could do TV, which is also writing. But choose your medium and understand like. There’s a lot of frustration involved. Like I try to explain to people. It’s not like math where one plus one equals two.

[Y]ou need to love books. If you love TV, then you could do TV, which is also writing. But choose your medium and understand like. There’s a lot of frustration involved. Like I try to explain to people. It’s not like math where one plus one equals two.

So if you put this amount of energy into writing, then you will achieve this much or you will sell this many books. There’s a lot of randomness and luck and, like, popularity contests going on with the literary world and it’s such a balance to just, to be confident in yourself and what you want to do and also be able to handle capitalism, frankly.

Debbi: Yes, unfortunately, but there you have it.

Melissa: Yeah. So long term, like that’s what it’s like.

But I’m just fascinated by artistic people, like creative people in general. And I’ve also like done some acting and performance and stuff, too. And one analogy that stuck with me was, you know, because, you know, it’s so hard to act like, you know, you often end up just giving it away for free, for example.

And one person said, well, you know, it’s like riding a bus, you know, like you get on the bus and it’s really crowded and you have to shove your way on and you’re just like, why am I doing this? And it’s so stressful. But you keep riding the bus and eventually there’s a place for you to sit.

And I’ve been struggling with that, like. Feeling like that, honestly, and feeling confident and faith and and keep going and everything like that, but it is like that, like you have to keep going. Oh, actually, can I share an analogy? I was just thinking about this.

Debbi: Please do.

Melissa: So Jennifer Crusie, you may know her. She wrote romance and she writes romantic suspense with often with Bob Mayer. And she talked about an experiment where they had rats with islands. So it sounds horrible.

But what they did was they took rats and they put them into, say, a basin and the rat had to paddle around. There was no, they couldn’t get up on the sides. It was too hard for them. So they divided the rats. Some of them, they would just have to paddle around until the timer went off and they would take them up. And, you know, no rats actually drowned or anything like that.

Or if they paddled around long enough, the second group, there was actually some sort of island where they could rest their little paws and breathe. And then they took all the rats and then they put them in the base in a second time. And they just measured how long they would swim. And the rats who had islands in the past, even though there were no islands now, kept swimming for much longer. And she was like, you need to be a rat with an island.

Now this now this makes me think about privilege, right? Because if you have been someone who’s raised with, you know, not a lot of money, you know, you actually physically cannot afford to just keep paddling around and be like, oh, well, if I write one more book, one more book, one more book, it’s going to be OK. For sure, that’s true.

But if you can keep the faith and keep going and write your book, even if you have to do it on the side and keep your day job and, you know, keep changing your baby and everything that you need to do at the same time, then eventually, I hope you will find a spot for yourself. You’ll create some sort of niche and find some group of people who are like, yes, I love your work. I love your stories. You are one of my people. And that’s what I’m hoping for, for all of us.

Debbi: I think those things are possible if you stick with it. You just have to persevere and believe in yourself. And look for your people, like you said, look for the people who appreciate what you’re doing.

Melissa: Yeah.

Debbi: So on that note, I’ll just ask, is there anything else you’d like to say before we finish up?

Melissa: I guess I just want to say thanks, you know, like, because you’re one of the people who keeps us going, right?

Debbi: Well, thank you. I really appreciate that, because, boy, I know the feeling is sometimes you just need somebody out there who believes and is ready to get behind you and say, pay attention to this person.

Melissa: Yes, absolutely. And so and thank you for adding your book to the gift basket for the giveaway.

Debbi: My pleasure. I’m glad I was able to do that. Yes, we’re doing a joint giveaway.

I’m throwing in a copy of Damaged Goods, my first Erica Jensen mystery with the gift basket that Melissa is offering. So be sure and check out that giveaway. The details are on my website under the post about the giveaway.

And if you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review. They help us. Also check out the perks we offer to various supporters on Patreon. So I’ve got that going.

And on that note, I’ll just say that our next guest will be Greg Hurwitz. And I want to thank you again, Melissa, for being with us today. Take care and happy reading!

If you’re a fan of the show, consider becoming a supporter on Patreon.

View Details

Join crime writer Matt Cost and me, as we discuss how Matt manages to write and publish three books a year, in various series.

You can download a copy of the transcript here.

Debbi (00:00:52): Hi, everyone. Happy New Year. Today is the third of the month, so it’s still a pretty new year. Anyhow, my guest for this episode is the former owner of a video store, a mystery bookstore, and a gym. I assume that he formerly owned these. He’s also taught history and coached just about every sport imaginable, in his words. So I’m trying to imagine some sports he might not have coached. Coming to us from Brunswick, Maine, it is my pleasure to introduce my guest, Matt Cost.

(00:01:31): Hi, Matt. How are you doing today?

Matt (00:01:33): I’m fantastic, Debbi. Thank you much for having me on.

Debbi (00:01:37): Oh, it’s my pleasure. Believe me. I always enjoy talking to people about their books and stuff.

(00:01:43): So I read your guest post. My goodness, your life sounds exhausting. It sounds like you’re constantly on the go. And you write three books a year and publish them?

Matt (00:01:55): Yes. You know, I got my first book published in 2020 after a short 29 years of waiting to get it published because I wrote it in 1991, originally the first draft. So when I got that door open, I decided to just go straight for it. And so that’s kind of what I do. I write seven days a week, 365 days a year and do all the other pieces that I put with that guest post on your blog.

Debbi (00:02:24): Wow. Well, I’m impressed. I got to say, three books a year is really good, in my opinion. That’s a fantastic output.

Matt (00:02:35): The variety of things you do is pretty cool, though. You’ve got mysteries and thrillers and young adults and screenplays. So that’s all very cool.

Debbi (00:02:44): It’s very cool. It may not be remunerative, but it’s cool. I’m enjoying it, though.I do enjoy writing screenplays very much.

(00:02:54): How do you organize your workflow? Do you keep a calendar of, say, short-term deadlines, things like that?

Matt (00:03:03): Not so much. Like I said, I write every day because without writing, nothing else matters. And so I fall into a rhythm where it takes me three or four months to write a book, but then it takes me three or four months to edit a book and three or four months to market a book and then three or four months promoting a book. And I’m generally doing all four of those things at the same time for four different books.

(00:03:31): So that’s kind of how my time is managed, you know, I break it out and what I need to get done. But I always start the day with writing because none of the rest of it matters if you don’t write.

Debbi (00:03:43): Exactly. Exactly right. Yeah. And how do you manage the paperwork in terms of like, or the filing system, as it were, if it’s an online filing system of your research and stuff, because you do a lot of historical research, don’t you?

Matt (00:04:02): Yeah, I’ve done three standalone historical fiction pieces. And then I also have started a series that’s a historical PI mystery series set in 1920s Brooklyn, New York. Bushwick, not too far from Queens. And, so to answer the question, I start with a document where I’m taking notes on the research that I’m doing. Much more heavy for historical, but some of the mysteries, you know, like when I get into genome editing and my book Mouse Trap, that took a lot of research on my part to understand the science behind that, because that’s not my forte, so to speak. And so I take all of those notes and then I develop character sketches.

(00:04:52): And I usually pick a picture that corresponds with what I think, maybe some famous actor, maybe just some schmo off of the internet that fits the image of who I’m looking for. And then I create an outline, which has over time become a pretty exact science for me. It is, you know, 40 chapters long and there’s three things in each chapter and a date and a word count. And I generally don’t fill that outline in until I’ve written the chapters that it’s going into because that helps me keep the place for what has happened. So, when you ask about the filing system, that allows me to come back and say, okay what was that guy’s eye color in chapter one or much more convoluted, you know.

(00:05:49): And when I’m on Book Six, which I’m currently on Book Six of my Clay Wolfe Trap series is, you know, what was the name of that park over in this fictional town of Port Essex that I put into Book One? And so I can go back and look into those outlines and find the appropriate place and names and things. And that’s very helpful.

Debbi (00:06:11): That’s a great system for a series. And your mathematical approach to story writing reminds me a great deal of screenwriting, which is highly mathematical. You need certain things to happen by page 10, by page 15, by page 20, that sort of thing. Have you ever considered screenwriting as an option?

Matt (00:06:33): I have, you know, dabbled with turning some of my works into screenplays. But then I realized that, you know, out in Hollywood, they have 10 or 12 screenwriters that they like to use for most of the work that they do. So you perhaps had some luck with it, but I was thinking it was going to be a tougher nut to crack than even getting published. So until somebody comes along and asks me to do it, I think I’ll hold off.

Debbi (00:07:03): I was going to say that I have not had Hollywood producers pounding on my door. It doesn’t happen like that. It really does not. Yeah, you kind of have to want to do that sort of thing or have an agent that wants to explore that, something like that, or produce it yourself. You could always do that, which is every bit as hard as it sounds. Let’s put it that way. Producing.

(00:07:34): Let me see, so your different series, where did you get the inspiration for them and tell us about them. How are they different? They deal with different protagonists, correct?

Matt (00:07:52): Yeah my first mystery series was based in the town that I live in Maine, so I went with the adage of write about what you know. And so I based it in Brunswick, Maine. And interestingly enough, my private investigator, Goff Langdon, is a private eye and a mystery bookstore owner in the town of Brunswick, Maine, because neither one of them is a job worthy of paying the bills in Brunswick. Small town, Maine. But if he puts the two of them together, he’s able to make a living. And that bookstore that he owns is based on a mystery bookstore that I actually owned in the 1990s, the Copy Dog Mystery Bookshop. And it sort of had a short run in the 90s. But now it gets to live on in the pages of the book. So that’s kind of fun for me. So it’s much more successful in the book than it was in real life.

Debbi (00:08:54): Yeah. I love the idea of a mystery-solving mystery bookstore owner. I think that’s great.

Matt (00:09:01): Yeah, so that was a fun one to put together. And so then, you know, as I was thinking about coming up with another series, I decided to create a fictional town because there’s certain problems with writing about a small town that you live in, such as people coming up and saying, “Is that me?”

Debbi (00:09:21): Yeah.

Matt (00:09:23): Or similar such things. I had one terrible story with that is, an elderly lady got my phone number and called me. She must have been in her 90s. And she said she absolutely loves my books and explained where she lived in Brunswick and that some of my scenes take place in and around where she lives. And as she explained where it was, I realized that in the book I was currently writing, I had just killed somebody in her building.

Debbi (00:09:59): Oh, my gosh. Oh, dear. Oh, no.

Matt (00:10:03): And I didn’t really have the heart to say that, thinking that it was the same building.

Debbi (00:10:09): Oh, my gosh. How awkward would that be?

Matt (00:10:13): So I decided to write a series about a fictional town that I created in Maine called Port Essex, which is actually loosely based on a real town, but it gives me the liberty to change things and do things that I want. And I have that private investigator, Clay Wolfe, be a little more professional. He’s a former Boston homicide detective as opposed to a mystery bookstore owner slash PI. And so he’s a little more professional, well-dressed and worried about his looks and appearance than Goff Langdon, who’s a bit of a slacker. But I would say both those series, as well as my third series, develop a very colorful cast of characters.

(00:11:02): I’ve always liked Elmore Leonard or Carl Hiaasen where they have just zany, fun characters. And so both Clay Wolfe and Goff Langdon have a group of friends who are a little zany, pretty colorful, a little crazy. And so I have fun with that.

Debbi (00:11:20): Oh, my God. You had me at Elmore Leonard and Carl Hiaasen, two of my favorite writers.

Matt (00:11:26): Yeah. I mean, once I got past the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew and things like that, I would say that those were the two that made the biggest impact on me and maybe tempered a little bit with Robert Parker. So you put those together, that’s the vein in which I try and write because those are kind of what molded me back in the day.

Debbi (00:11:48): So cool. That is really cool. Have you ever thought of writing a nonfiction book about productivity for writers?

Matt (00:11:56): [Laughs]

Debbi (00:12:00): Time management?

Matt (00:12:03): I haven’t planned on writing that. But up till now, as writers, we do a lot of conferences. And I go on panels and things like that. And I’ve never really felt like I should teach a class on writing. But now I’m starting to come around to doing exactly what you said. Productivity for writers or as my blog is called the Evolution of a Book, because I feel like I have fine-tuned that pretty well to hit all the different aspects that you need to as an author in this day and age, which, as you well know, is not just writing a book and then going to the bank and depositing your check.

Debbi (00:12:43): Exactly. Exactly. It’s not. Standing out is harder than ever these days. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in writing as a career?

Matt (00:12:58): I think, you know, go with the fact that there is no magic bean. As we just mentioned, it’s not as easy as writing the book and collecting the paycheck and going out. You know, really what you have to do is you have to spend your entire day gathering a whole bunch of beans and then you grind them up. And at the end of the day, if you’re lucky, you have enough for a pot of coffee. And the next day, you can drink your coffee and do it all over again.

(00:13:37): And that’s pretty much what it is. And if you don’t love writing, researching, editing, promoting, and marketing books, you probably are in the wrong field. Because there’s a chance that you’ll make a lot of money. And there’s a chance that you’ll make a living. And there’s a good chance that neither one of those things will happen and you’ll have to be doing it for the love of the craft and just enough to scrape by.

(00:14:12): And so, you know, you have to love it. There’s no major magic bean. You just have to gather the beans and grind away at it and make a pot of coffee and then do it all over again the next day.

Debbi (00:14:25): Absolutely, yeah. It’s interesting because there is definitely routine in a writer’s life.And the idea of writing as a job is something I can fully appreciate in terms of putting in the hours, and making sure you apply your time in the best way. And I was reminded of, when you were talking just then, of Robert Crais, who spoke at Bouchercon one year and said he considered himself a blue collar writer. And I thought that’s such a great attitude. You have your little lunch bag or whatever, you sit at your computer, you do your thing for a few hours, you take a break,you do your thing some more for a few hours, and you just work at it and work at it. And it’s a job. He treated it as a job. And I thought, that’s fantastic. And it sounds like you do the same sort of thing.

Matt (00:15:21): Absolutely. You know, I think another one of my heroes, Robert Parker, treated it that way as well, as a blue-collar job. And I think that made an impact on me, for sure. And, you know, people are always talking to me about how are you so prolific? How do you write so much?

(00:15:41): And then I kind of hear how many thousands of words they write when they sit down to write, and it’s always higher output than I do. But I do it every day. I do it seven days a week. And it just dovetails into the next day. And I just keep going at it. And when I finish one book, I’m lucky to take a day off and I start writing the next one. So, you know, you’re grinding away doing the blue collar work. I like that. If that’s what you call it.

(00:16:15): And, you know, it’s not sitting at your fancy desk, you know, whipping off a book in a couple of weeks and then taking the rest of the year off to, you know, just go around signing it.

Debbi (00:16:27): Interesting. Yeah, it isn’t. What conferences do you usually attend?

Matt (00:16:34): You know, ones that I never miss are local to me, Crime Wave in Maine and Crime Bake in Massachusetts. I’ve done ThrillerFest down in New York. I’m pretty sure that I’m going to try and get down to Nashville next year for the Silver Falchion one.

Debbi (00:16:57): Cool.

Matt (00:16:59): Which is something I’d like to do. I have not yet done Bouchercon, which I would like to do sometime. And I’m not sure if I’ll get there next year or when exactly that will be.

Debbi (00:17:12): Well, one of these days, I hope to get to one of those conferences because it’s been a long time since I’ve been, since before the pandemic.

Matt (00:17:20): Do you go to Malice Domestic?

Debbi (00:17:24): I haven’t lately, but I would like to this year.

Matt (00:17:27): That’s right in your neck of the woods.

Debbi (00:17:29): It is, yeah. I always go to C3, if you’ve ever heard of that, Creatures, Crimes, and Creativity.

Matt (00:17:36): Yeah, I’ve heard of it.

Debbi (00:17:38): It’s in Columbia.

Matt: (00:17:39): Oh, it’s right in Columbia.

Debbi (00:17:40): Yeah, it’s right there. It’s like, hey, all I have to do is just drive right over there. Yeah, it’s great. So is there anything else you’d like to talk about before we finish up?

Matt (00:17:53): No, I think, oh, I think my third series, which was the impetus behind my Brooklyn 8 Ballo series was really the fact that my daughter lives in Brooklyn. She’s in Bed-Stuy. And so I said, you know, if I’m going to write, and the first step was I wanted to combine my love of histories and mysteries.

(00:18:19): So I said, well, let’s write a historical PI mystery. And then I decided to write about Brooklyn because my daughter lives there and I could go do research and visit at the same time. And so I set my PI detective in Bushwick, right next to Queens there. And I decided on the 1920s because it was such a fabulous time and place with the Roaring Twenties and the Jazz Age and prohibition and gangsters and everything. So all of those things get woven into my so far two book series. The first one was Velma Gone Awry and then this past summer City Gone Askew came out, and in the first pages of the first book Dorothy Parker makes an appearance. And she’s such a fabulous character that she refuses to leave the pages and she becomes a regular throughout the book, both of them, as do many other characters like Coleman Hawkins and Bugsy Siegel and Meyer Lansky.

(00:19:27): And so and then, you know, other appearances by famous people is fun to weave into it as well. So that’s kind of my Brooklyn 8 Ballo series.

Debbi (00:19:39): Have you been to the Algonquin and the Round Table?

Matt (00:19:43): I have.

Debbi (00:19:44): It’s kind of cool. My husband and I went there once, and there was a cat that was roaming through the restaurant, and apparently it kind of came with the place. I don’t remember the name of the cat now, but I just remember there was a cat.

Matt (00:20:00): Yeah, I didn’t see the cat when I was there, but I did go in because – My first chapter, you know, 8 Ballo, my PI hops into the Algonquin Room to talk to Dorothy Parker, who’s at the Round Table with Benchley and some of those others. That starts the whole thing off.

Debbi (00:20:21): That’s fantastic. That sounds like great fun.

Matt (00:20:24): Yeah, the research is so much fun on a lot of those things. I also visited the back room of The Back Room, which is a speakeasy in lower Manhattan that has been kept exactly like it was in the 1920s, so they haven’t changed a thing. But on top of that, they’ve kept pristine a back room to this speakeasy called The Back Room, where Bugsy Siegel and Meyer Lansky and Charlie “Lucky” Luciano planned Murder Incorporated and kind of laid the foundation for the modern day mafia.

(00:21:04): And they play parts in both of my books so far. So it was neat to get in to see that, you know, just so many different things to the historical aspects. The history of Roosevelt Island which used to be known as Damnation Island and the East River there. It’s just mind-blowing so.

Debbi (00:21:29): Fascinating. Oh, my goodness. Well, I want to thank you so much for being here and sharing all this with us because it really is fascinating. And so I appreciate your being here and waiting to get on, also.

Matt (00:21:44): Oh, it’s fantastic. And it was great talking to you. It’s always one of the best, you know, I didn’t quite get to this, but one of the best parts of the whole gig is interacting and talking with other authors. And it’s such a fantastic community, mystery writers specifically, that I’ve enmeshed myself in and have really enjoyed. So I’m very happy to be on and chatting with you.

Debbi (00:22:12): Oh, well, same here. And thank you. Because yeah, you’re right.I mean, mystery writers are just awesome people. Crime writers, mystery writers, all of us.

Matt 00:22:23): Yeah, I think we get our angst out on the pages. So we’re a little more chill.

Debbi (00:22:28): That’s what it is. Yeah, we get all that angst out on the page and don’t have to take it out on anybody else. So yeah. Again, thank you. And my thanks to everyone who is listening as well. You can get early access to the episodes ad-free if you become a supporter on Patreon or Substack, one or the other. One of these days, I’m going to decide between the two of those, maybe. Who knows what’s going to happen? I never know what’s going to happen.

(00:23:00): Anyway, you also get bonus episodes and excerpts from my work, et cetera, et cetera. In any case, our next guest on the podcast will be Melissa Yi. And in the meantime, take care, happy new year and happy reading. Be seeing you.

Matt (00:23:19): Happy New Year. Write on!

Debbi (00:23:21): Write on!

If you enjoy the podcast, I hope you’ll consider lending your support on Patreon.

View Details

The Crime Cafe once again is pleased to bring another episode from the annals of radio! Yes, a radio program. With one of my favorite protagonists–Philip Marlowe!

Bogie as Sam Spade!

He was also great as Philip Marlowe!

See what I mean? 🙂

Also, check out these show notes from out of the past. 🙂 Get it? Ha!

And for your holiday viewing pleasure, one of my other favorite Philip Marlowes!

Powers Boothe was awesome!I even did a tribute post when he died.

So, I just had to include him in this, didn’t I? 🙂

Happy ~~Noir~~ New Year! 🙂Image by Brigitte Werner from Pixabay

View Details

This week’s Crime Cafe interview features journalist, attorney, podcaster, and true crime writer Kerrie Droban.

We talk about psychopaths and writing about them. And other stuff.

You can download a copy of the interview here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today is an award-winning true crime author, podcaster, attorney, and television journalist. She writes about violent subcultures such as outlaw motorcycle gangs and about criminal pathology. She has appeared on numerous television documentaries and shows. Her books have been adapted to create the show Gangland Undercover and have been optioned for film. It’s my pleasure to have Kerrie Droban with me today. Hey, Kerrie. How are you doing?

Kerrie: Good. Thank you so much for having me.

Debbi: I’m so glad you’re here with us today. I was just checking your website and I was fascinated to see that you grew up in a “spy family”. What was that like?

Kerrie: I did. I know. Everybody asks me that. It was actually the perfect backdrop for true crime and really sort of set the ball in motion, unbeknownst to me until a lot of years later. I grew up in a family of secrets and undercover operations and I really didn’t know anything about what my parents did until I was 17. And so it really just sort of set this whole career in motion of what does that do to somebody who lives in a duplicitous world where you’re not really sure what’s real, what isn’t real? What are the stakes of keeping secrets and living in a family where you at one point, on one occasion you have to protect them while they’re trying to protect you at the same time. You know, you really just don’t really know who to trust and who your confidences are. It was an interesting world. I had two brothers, and my brothers and I, none of us really knew what the other knew. So it was one of those sort of compounded duplicity. You couldn’t really ask, and so we sort of lived in a world of walking on eggshells, not really knowing who knew what and what was real.

I grew up in a family of secrets and undercover operations and I really didn’t know anything about what my parents did until I was 17. And so it really just sort of set this whole career in motion of what does that do to somebody who lives in a duplicitous world where you’re not really sure what’s real, what isn’t real?

Debbi: Oh my gosh. What a background to have as a person getting into crime writing of any sort.

Kerrie: Yes, yes. It was perfect.

Debbi: Yeah. And you had a Masters in writing, essentially from the writing seminar program at Johns Hopkins University first before you went to law school.

Kerrie: Yes. I started out actually as a poet. I mean, that’s a very circuitous route into true crime, but I wound up honing my skills as a poet and realized you really can’t make a living as a poet, and unless I wanted to be a poetry professor, I really wasn’t going to go very far with poetry. So that’s what launched me into law school.

Debbi: That’s interesting, because I had a similar story except it was with history. I was a journalism major, and I thought about getting a Masters in History and decided I don’t really plan on teaching history and ended up in law school.

Kerrie: Oh, wow.

Debbi: Funny how that happens.

Kerrie: I know. It’s sort of like your practical brain says, okay, how are you going to actually feed yourself, you know?

Debbi: Exactly.

Kerrie: Poverty was not fun.

Debbi: Oh, God. I can name some classes that were totally not fun. I hated Estates and Trusts for one thing. Lord, Lord. I read your guest post and I thought it was really good. I wanted to recommend that everybody read it. What struck me about it was kind of the general sense that psychopaths can’t really be fixed as such, in any sense that we would normally think of “fixing” a person. And in fact, we have to be better educated to avoid being in danger from them. That’s kind of what seemed to be your point. I just wondered if you had any thoughts on how environmental factors might affect persons in becoming a psychopath.

Kerrie: Yeah. I mean, it’s a subject that has fascinated me for a very long time, and of course, it blends in really well with true crime writing, and being a criminal defense attorney and being a family law lawyer. What struck me really starkly in practicing in this area, is that people really didn’t have an understanding of that kind of pathology. And when you don’t understand psychopathy, then you really don’t know how to – number one – litigate it, address it. Judges don’t know how to give appropriate sentences. Victims don’t know how to survive this. I mean, it becomes this sort of escalating ball that really can take you into areas that are not even helpful.

What struck me really starkly in practicing in this area, is that people really didn’t have an understanding of that kind of pathology. And when you don’t understand psychopathy, then you really don’t know how to – number one – litigate it, address it.

So to answer your question, it’s a whole nature/nurture question. Are psychopaths born? Are they made? And I think the consensus, and in fact most of the research that I’ve done, is they are really born that way, and so because of that, they’re different. It’s a very nuanced personality disorder. Oftentimes it’s sort of interchanged with verbiage like sociopaths or narcissists, or people will just say it as sort of hyperbole. Oh, he’s such a psychopath. But I think it’s really important to understand what that personality disorder is in order to know how to address it, particularly in the litigation area.

I’ve seen people – lawyers, judges, victims – become re-traumatized, re-abused by the very system that’s designed to protect them. So and, and the reason it’s important to understand that environment doesn’t necessarily play a factor is because you don’t want to wind up blaming the victim, blaming the parents of the child who might be born that way, or what do you do when you’re faced with them? We have so much teen violence now, which is really hard to comprehend, hard to wrap your brain around. I mean, what do you do with them? Do you try them as adults? Do you rehabilitate? We’re a nation that really wants to rehabilitate criminals, and I know this sounds weird coming from a defense attorney, like an imposter defense attorney.

I don’t believe that rehabilitation can actually help somebody who is a psychopath, and the common other terminology for this – antisocial personality disorder. When I was a capital lawyer, that was sort of the kiss of death diagnosis where if somebody had antisocial personality disorder, there was no cure. There was no helping them. And so then you talk about, well, how do you keep other people safe from them?

Debbi: Yeah. That’s a very good question. Where do you land on something like the death penalty?

Kerrie: Interesting, because I was a capital lawyer for about 15 years and really started litigating in those areas mostly on the appellate post-conviction side, and so I would see them after they were convicted, and after they had gone through these lengthy mitigation hearings where you would see the lawyers presenting really umpteen factors in their childhood that could have contributed to the way they became. Things like they had domestic violence in the family. They had abuse, they had trauma, they had sexual abuse, you name it, and how did that impact the later crime?

I actually stopped being a capital lawyer when I got to the one case that just I couldn’t do anything with. And I had to get off of that case because in my opinion, it was the first time that I actually encountered what I would describe as a true psychopath. There was no way to help this person, and I felt, just from a moral/ethical standpoint, there was really nothing that I could authentically argue to help my client.

I actually stopped being a capital lawyer when I got to the one case that just I couldn’t do anything with. And I had to get off of that case because in my opinion, it was the first time that I actually encountered what I would describe as a true psychopath.

I really believed – and this was sort of my moral crisis at the time or my ethical crisis – I really believed that if I continued to … I couldn’t represent him because I really believed that he deserved to die. That is so stunning for me to be able to say that as a defense attorney, but it really sort of flipped everything on its head for me and I started to really reevaluate the work that I was doing, why I was doing it, why this particular defendant was different from the other ones that I had represented, and what made him different. And so that’s what sort of launched me on this whole trajectory of, well, maybe there’s another way of analyzing these cases.

Debbi: This is great. I mean, I just love hearing this from a defense lawyer because we don’t get to hear enough from defense lawyers, I think. A lot of people have this picture of them as sleazy or something like that, and they’re not.

Kerrie: They’re not. It is such a tough job. It’s a really tough job.

Debbi: It’s a tough job. Yes.

Kerrie: Actually it sort of launched me into a whole other sort of area of like the ripple effect of representing people like this, representing psychopaths. What does it do to the lawyers? I think lawyers need to be trained in that area as well, and not just spit out the party line of let’s do all of this mitigation when sometimes there isn’t mitigation. It doesn’t exist, as in the case of the one client I had to withdraw from. There was nothing, and that’s what led me to conclude evil is not a mental illness. I really went on this sort of soapbox of let’s not conflate the two terms because they’re not the same, and they deserve to be treated differently.

And I think it’s really important for a defense lawyer to … any lawyer, but really a defense lawyer … and the reason I say that is because psychopaths will manipulate anyone. They’ll manipulate the judges, their lawyers, the juries, and they will get away with it, and they will use the courtroom as another method of manipulation. And so unless you are really attuned to that, you’re going to fall right into that trap. It has happened to colleagues of mine, and the ripple effect stays with you forever. I mean, you can get roped into it.

The classic case that I always think of is my colleague who represented Jodi Arias and all of the fallout that he went through of having to represent somebody like that. What’s important for – I’m sure that your viewers understand this – there are a lot of defense attorneys who represent capital clients, 99% of them are court appointed, so we don’t pick and choose who the clients are. And so if somebody is assigned to a truly vile person, and I can think of, for example, James Holmes, the mass shooter of Colorado movie theater killer shooter. The attorneys that represent James Holmes, the defense lawyers, they were vilified, they were hated by the public. It was almost as if they were an extension of James Holmes, which is really an unfair characterization, but it happens quite often to defense lawyers, and it really, I think, can have a psychological toll on practicing in that area.

I think that’s really important too, to sort of have the public understand that, that they’re not extensions of their client. They’re not. Just because they’re out there defending somebody like that. I mean, everybody deserves a defense and all that stuff, but I think it’s really important to understand the kind of client that you’re dealing with, how they’re going to manipulate everything that you say or do in the courtroom, and that’s really what sort of my path has taken me on, all this true crime stuff. I’ve really been fascinated by that. What is that ripple effect? What does it do to people? What does it do to the community? What does it do to the lawyers representing them?

I think that’s really important too, to sort of have the public understand that, that they’re not extensions of their client. They’re not. Just because they’re out there defending somebody like that.

Debbi: Those are great questions. And yeah, really, what does it do to the community as well as the lawyers? I mean, that has to take a toll on your psyche after a while. One of the questions I had for you was if you ever got depressed doing this work.

Kerrie: Yes. I think I would be lying if I said I didn’t. I think that what was really key for me in doing capital work and then of course doing true crime work and really starting to drill down into some of these really dangerous characters, was to make sure that I had my own balance. I didn’t let it absorb me, and you have to realize when it is absorbing you. You have to realize when it’s important to step away, to practice mindfulness, to recognize that this is not your identity.

Just because you’re representing somebody who embodies the worst of the worst, it’s not who you are. You don’t have to take it on. It’s easy to say that, but I’ll be honest, I was in therapy for many years. Probably the only thing that kept me going was having some kind of sounding board.

I know this sounds kind of tongue in cheek, but you know they have the scenes in The Sopranos where he goes to see his therapist. Well, it’s really true. It’s that kind of relationship where you go to your therapist and you say, listen I do something really strange and a lot of people don’t understand it, and I can’t talk to anybody about it because everything’s confidential. It’s secret so you can’t talk to your client about how your client’s affecting you. You can’t talk to anybody really. Maybe the State Bar, maybe the Ethics Committee, but not really, because it’s just not that kind of thing where you can divulge anything personal about what you’re going through with respect to what your client’s facing.

So it’s a very interesting sort of private, hellish world, but it did remind me in a lot of ways of that Sopranos scene. Well, he has many scenes where he goes to see his therapist.

Debbi: Yes. Yes. What authors have most inspired your own writing?

Kerrie: Oh, it’s interesting because even though I am a true crime writer, I don’t read a lot of true crime. I find I have to really step away from that, and so I am very fascinated by memoirs. I absolutely love reading about other peoples’ lives and other peoples’ experiences because again, I really believe that we can learn so much from shared stories and I admire the courage that it takes a lot of these writers. One that comes to mind is Glennon Doyle, Glennon Melton Doyle, who’s one of my favorite writers. What I love about her is her authentic voice, how she can just completely 100% be herself and not worry about how other people are going to perceive her. I just find that so courageous and so fascinating, and I don’t know how she does it, but she does it and it’s amazing to me and so I’m very intrigued by that.

I don’t read a lot of true crime. I find I have to really step away from that, and so I am very fascinated by memoirs. I absolutely love reading about other peoples’ lives and other peoples’ experiences because again, I really believe that we can learn so much from shared stories.

Another one is Cheryl Strayed, the fact that she could take one experience out of just a terrible tragedy in her life and not let it define her life, but show you how she moved through it. What I love about those two authors in particular is that they’re not celebrities. You know, they’re not out there … I mean, now they are in the public eye, but at the time they weren’t and this was just a slice of their life that they were willing to share with the world. And because they did that, we all gained something from it.

I remember reading Cheryl Strayed’s book and thinking at the time I was going through some very traumatic experience in my own life, and I thought, wow if I had not found her book, I don’t know that I would’ve had the same sort of epiphany that I had coming out of my own tragedy. I find that such courageous writing, and it reminds me in a lot of ways of the – because there are times where I come back to true crime writing – and I don’t know if it’s a worldwide phenomenon, it might be, but I’m just going to say the American phenomenon, we have savage appetites for crime and it really sort of made me think about that a lot on sort of an academic level. What is it about it that really draws us in, and predominantly women? I mean, women make up the main audience of true crime, which is even more fascinating to me.

Debbi: Why do you think that is?

Kerrie: Well, there are many theories on it, but I think in a lot of respects, it’s sort of that idea of – I’m not much of a roller coaster rider and I don’t like riding roller coasters – but it’s that idea of being on a roller coaster, being able to have the thrill of almost in my opinion, almost dying from the speed and then whipping around things, but knowing that you’re not going to. So for a woman who is in – and I hate to say this – in all likelihood, going to be the target of a predator or more likely than a man, for example, to be a victim of a crime, for women, it’s that sort of I’m going to sit in the comfort of my living room. It’s like watching a horror film unfold, and I’m going to see this play out on a screen. So I’m protected, but I’m watching it and maybe I will learn something. I will learn something about the pathology of that predator. I will learn something about how that victim became a victim, and what can I take away from it.

And so that always brings me back to why I write true crime, and why I devote so much of my time to doing podcasts of it, is that I really believe that there is a fine line between entertainment and education. I think that it’s such an important vehicle to be able to educate people about these different pathologies and about if this happened to this woman, what could you do differently? What could you learn from this, and what can you take away from it?

I really believe that there is a fine line between entertainment and education. I think that it’s such an important vehicle to be able to educate people about these different pathologies and about if this happened to this woman, what could you do differently?

But the one thing I will say about true crime that I really would love to see a turn in, which I haven’t seen too much of yet, is to not have the victim be a footnote. I think that that’s something that really does need to change. It’s not sensationalizing so much the killer or the predator or making that such the focal point, even though it’s really important to know that sort of pathology, I think in many respects, it’s really important not to forget the victim that this happened to, and they have a life and how did it impact that? Again, that’s that ripple effect. How did it impact that community, that person? I mean, taking one precious life out of that, and how did it change the trajectory of so many lives? So it’s really sort of a double-edged coin.

Debbi: Yeah, yeah, for sure. What kind of writing schedule do you keep, and how much time do you spend on writing versus, say, the podcast?

Kerrie: Well, I think I’m probably a little bit insane that way, a little ADHD. I have kept the schedule probably, oh my gosh, for as long as I can remember really, and it just sort of became my biorhythm. I get up at 4 every morning, and I work from about 4 to 7, and then I go to my day job, which is law. I really try to compartmentalize those two because it’s too difficult to bring them into the same space, so I really focus on writing, and by writing, it doesn’t necessarily have to be being physically at a typewriter writing something. It can be thinking about an idea. It can be going for a walk, it can be reading something, watching something. I get a lot of inspiration from watching documentaries.

And then, now that I have these two podcasts, one of my podcasts, Crime Stands Still, started out of a case that I represented a woman for 15 years who I believe was wrongfully convicted, and I was actually her post-conviction lawyer. And so at the end of the day, she said to me, there’s nothing left that you can do in the legal system, so what can you do in a different media platform? I had never really thought about podcasting until I got to her case, and I thought, you know what? Her case is so interesting, so compelling, I think I’m going to start there. So I started by telling her story and offering different legal theories and different perspectives, different new evidence that the jury never heard, and so that became that platform. That was kind of easy to do and fun to do because I already had all the research.

The other one I do is Crime Bites, where I just do kind of snippets of what’s in the headlines, and I offer it from a defense attorney’s perspective. What would I see legally that maybe an audience doesn’t get from another podcaster? What can I offer that’s different? I do spend quite a bit of time on that one, because I have to, number one, find the case and figure out what’s interesting about it. I don’t want to just talk about a case that’s sensational, but I will talk about something that is in the news and maybe offer a different perspective. It’s quite a bit of work so I devote maybe two days a week to researching and writing those scripts and doing those podcasts, and then the rest of the time as a lawyer. So it’s a juggling act.

Debbi: Wow. It must be quite a juggling act. I really admire your determination and persistence there and your work ethic. That’s great. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in having a writing career?

Kerrie: Well, the one thing that I would say to somebody that I wish somebody had said to me was do not expect it to replace your day job, at least not for a very long time and if you’re very, very lucky, because you cannot or shouldn’t I think, be doing it for the money because it’s not there and it’s not there for a variety of reasons. 90% of the time it has nothing to do with the quality or time expended on your book.

It’s just a fact. There’s so many books out there. The publishers take the lion’s share of the royalties and so it can be very frustrating. I’m traditionally published, so I can’t really speak for the self-publishing arena, but being published traditionally, it’s been a very sobering experience. While they certainly have a wide distribution and they get your books in a lot of places, and it’s fun to see that, you lose a lot of control over the creative project. You really don’t see a lot of money from it.

Debbi: That’s right.

Kerrie: Yeah. And that’s why I’m still a lawyer. I get asked that all the time. Why do you still do this? Well, because I have to.

Debbi: People have this notion that somehow you come out with a book and suddenly you’re a millionaire. No, it’s not the way it works at all.

Kerrie: No.

Debbi: That’s definitely true for self-published, I can tell you that from a personal perspective. I know that from experience. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Kerrie: The only other thing that I would add is in addition to just doing it because you have a passion for it, don’t write to the market necessarily, but write to what you are absolutely passionate about, because you’re going to spend so much time working on it, rewriting and editing, no matter what, no matter if you’re self-published or traditionally published, it is going to consume your life for a couple of years at least. And so be prepared for that and be sure that you really love what you’re doing. And the last piece of thing I would say is don’t read the reviews.

Debbi: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely!

Kerrie: Just don’t read them, because people will write whatever. They haven’t tried to write a book and so they’re just going to be trolls in a lot of cases.

Debbi: The heck with them.

Kerrie: Yeah.

Debbi: Ignore that kind of stuff. If there are people out there who like you, that’s enough, isn’t it?

Kerrie: Right.

Debbi: Have that crew of people who like you. Well, thank you so much for being here, and this was a great talk and I could probably talk for an hour about this, but unfortunately I don’t have the time. Zoom won’t let me.

Kerrie: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Debbi: Oh, I’m pleased to do it. Believe me. It’s always nice to have a lawyer on, too, especially a defense lawyer. I love defense lawyers, so … not that I don’t like prosecutors, I know they have a very important job, but defense lawyers really take it on the chin sometimes, and I like to defend them..

Kerrie: That’s cute.

Debbi: So, in any case, I just want to thank everyone who’s listening. If you would please, leave a review if you enjoyed the episode. And also, we have a Patreon page with perks for supporters, so check that out. With that I’ll just say, take care and until next time, happy reading.

If you enjoyed the episode, consider becoming a supporter on Patreon.

View Details

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe features another story from The Adventures of Philip Marlowe.

~~I’ll gladly provide transcripts when I can afford it~~ Enjoy ~~my expensive hobby~~ the show! 🙂

View Details

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with lawyer and crime writer Dan Flanigan.

Dan started off writing poetry. Check out the story of how his writing journey began.

To download a copy of the transcript, just click here.

Debbi: Hi, everyone. My guest today is a lawyer, author, playwright, and poet, who among other things, has taught legal history and jurisprudence and practiced civil rights law, as well as worked in financial services, so he has an impressive resume. His written work includes the Peter O’Keefe hardboiled crime series, which has earned praise and awards. He has also written stage plays and short stories. His novellaDewdrops was adapted from a play. It’s my pleasure to have with me a lawyer and acclaimed author, Dan Flanigan. Hi, Dan. How are you doing today?

Dan: Good enough, thank you. As I said, better than I deserve I’m doing.

Debbi: Oh, dear me. Oh, I’d hate to think that. You always wanted to write a novel but ended up going to law school. How did that come about?

Dan: Well, I’m not sure.

Debbi: I know the feeling.

Dan: I wanted to be a writer from the time I was a sophomore in high school, and found many ways to avoid or evade it. When I look back on it, I punished myself a whole lot all those years, and unfortunately punished my wife as well for selling out, not doing what I was supposed to do. But when I look back on it now, I wonder if I really had anything to write and you’ve lived your whole life. You have had a lot happen to you.

Debbi: There’s a lot to be said for waiting before you start writing, because then you have more content to draw from.

Dan: In any event, I never thought it would, but it worked out well.

Debbi: Absolutely. Yeah. What was it that started you? You started with poetry, correct?

Dan: Yes. I had written in sort of spurts occasionally over a long period of time, between my sophomore year in high school and when I really started writing in earnest, and I had a period in the 1980s when I was on kind of a two-year break from practicing law and I wrote several plays. I wrote some poetry, a couple short stories, and I wrote a novel. One thing led to another. For example, I had an agent, I had a publisher for the novel. The publisher went bankrupt, and I had a stage reading of a play in New York. I thought I was going to be on top of the world for about five seconds. Where do you go eventually with any of that? So I decided I’m going to quit punishing myself and have nothing to do with writing.

And about 20 years later, if you got something like that in you, I guess it stays in you. My wife died in 2011, and I thought I’d do a kind of tribute, I guess – she might not think so – to her with a book called Tenebrae, which is a book of poems, mostly focused on her last illness and death. That sort of broke the dam, if you will, and sort of led me back into writing in a very serious way, and I really kept to it since.

Debbi: What inspired you to create Peter O’Keefe, this character? What kind of a person is he and what do you draw on to create stories about him?

Dan: The way I ended up there is odd, but I had no thought of ever writing crime fiction or detective fiction or anything else. I had read some of it over the course of my life, but never was steeped in it in any way, and the first two books, one was poetry and one was a short story collection, Dewdrops that I guess – not to be pretentious – but you might call literary fiction. But then I wanted to write this novel, sort of a fall in reparation sort of thing. I thought I want to make this more interesting than just navel gazing, and so I said, you know, I’m going to try to put it in this sort of private detective format and see how it goes. And that was the book that I wrote, and got accepted by a publisher.

I had no thought of ever writing crime fiction or detective fiction or anything else. I had read some of it over the course of my life, but never was steeped in it in any way …

But in the course of … I’m now in 2013 – in the course of writing the book of poetry, I pulled that book out of the box and said, you know, this is okay. This ought to be. So I rewrote it very extensively, and that’sMink Eyes, the first in this series. Then I thought, oh, that’s one book, and I’ll go onto something else. But then I had this notion of doing it as a series. The first book was set in 1986. I thought it would be interesting to take this group of characters and deal with serious “literary” kinds of subjects, but in a more interesting format, and move it along as much as possible, and do the history of our times.

This guy starts out, he’s a Vietnam vet. Like everybody else, he’s a recovering cocaine guy and an alcoholic and has PTSD, although he won’t acknowledge it or do anything about it. He’s divorced, has a daughter who’s 9 years old in the first book, and he’s really at the bottom. His childhood buddy, who’s a big time lawyer named Mike Harrigan sort of plucks him out of jail, gets him a deal with the cops to be free of it if he goes straight and narrow. I’m going to make a private detective out of you, and that’s the start, the origin story, if you will.

The books attempt to be standalone, but one theme in the first three is him struggling and dealing with the Mafia, and it’s also about really the decline and disappearance really of the traditional Mafia in that period of time through RICO prosecutions and wiretaps and all that.

The first several books are really him trying to come to terms with being a new person. As he describes it, a more useful person, and then there’s a whole theme. He gets crossways with the Mafia in the first book. The books attempt to be standalone, but one theme in the first three is him struggling and dealing with the Mafia, and it’s also about really the decline and disappearance really of the traditional Mafia in that period of time through RICO prosecutions and wiretaps and all that.

Debbi: Interesting. Where is the series set and how much does the setting play in the book?

Dan: It’s different in different books. When people ask this question, I say a place like Kansas City. That’s where I’m from, and we had quite a Mafia group in town, too. But I don’t ever say it’s Kansas City, because I don’t want to be tied down to streets and I want to be able to do something purely fictional if I want to, so I never say that, but people would recognize it as that if they knew Kansas City and it’s a whole Midwestern thing. And then down in southern Missouri and northern Arkansas, not far from us, it’s the Ozarks. The first book Mink Eyes is in fact about a Ponzi mink farm scheme down in the Ozarks and all kinds of other crazy stuff. The latest book,An American Tragedy … no, pardon me… the book I’m working on right now is another kind of Ozark-set book, where a lot of hate groups and fundamentalist Christian survivalist kind of stuff was going on in the 80s and 90s. So I make use of all that but without ever saying. I call it the Lake Country instead of just saying it’s the Ozarks.

Debbi: Well, that’s interesting. I noticed in an article about you that it says you described the 80s as not being a golden era where everything was just so much better than it is today, and with more hairspray.

Dan: Yeah. And that’s not me. That was the author of the article.

Debbi: I noticed that. Yeah, it wasn’t exactly an exact quote.

Dan: Right. And she’s very young, and I think she probably had this exalted view of the 1980s.

Debbi: I find that very fascinating. I think we have a tendency to do that. Go back 20 years and say, oh, gee, things were so much better then.

Dan: With a whole lot of things. And I never thought so, even though it was in a lot of ways good to me, financially but it was fairly rotten in its heart, you know?

Debbi: Oh, yeah. I mean, there was some really bad stuff going on in the 80s, and don’t even get me started about the 60s. Talk about an overrated decade! Okay, moving on. You’re still practicing law, so where do you find the time to do the writing?

Dan: Well, luckily we have this great sabbatical program in my firm where every five or six years, you take three months off if you want to, and that let me sort of jumpstart this series business. And, then also, I do a lot less law practice than I did at one time, and I’m sort of … let’s call it moving toward the horizon.

[W]e have this great sabbatical program in my firm where every five or six years, you take three months off if you want to, and that let me sort of jumpstart this series business.

Debbi: Yes, I know the feeling.

Dan: So I have more time, but I think maybe in that article, I don’t know, somebody asked me, how do you do all that? I said, well, it helps start out being a workaholic and …

Debbi: And living for a while.

Dan: A very helpful thing in certain ways anyway.

Debbi: I think that lawyers tend to be a bit workaholic generally.

Dan: Yeah, right and so that could carry over, although I don’t have the same discipline writing that I did as a lawyer where you’re writing for clients and their expectations and deadlines and all that, and especially in the era that I practiced, everything changed to “I want it yesterday.” But, with the books, I wish I would get up every morning and write two or three hours, and every day and all that, but it doesn’t happen now. I need to sort of wallow around in it for two or three days. But on the other hand, I’ve gotten six books out now, so …

Debbi: There you go. Whatever works. That’s the way it works. How much research do you do for your novels?

Dan: Varies a little bit, but a lot. The most recent one – An American Tragedy – I did lots and lots of reading plus I did a lot of different things as a lawyer, but one thing I never was a criminal defense lawyer. And the book is about a trial, and so I had to really, even as a lawyer, had to do all kinds of research to make sure I was doing it right.

I never was a criminal defense lawyer. And the book is about a trial, and so I had to really, even as a lawyer, had to do all kinds of research to make sure I was doing it right.

Debbi: I get it!

Dan: I also made sure that I had a couple of really experienced trial lawyers review it to make sure. You know how whatever field you may know or you watch Law & Order, if you’re a lawyer, you go, that’s ridiculous. That can never happen. I just didn’t want that to happen to me. I hope it didn’t.

Debbi: Yeah, exactly. You don’t want that.

Dan: And then for the Mafia thing, I sort of immersed myself in non-fiction stuff about the Mafia, and so I never want to be exactly like what really happened, but just to try to be versed enough in it. One of the things I did a lot of was bankruptcy, and Kansas City, they were all around that. I was a naïve kid when I was practicing law. I was all around those guys and didn’t really know what I was doing.

Debbi: Oh my!

Dan: So anyway, it depends on the situation. I’m no good at firearms, so I have to not only research, but get some help from people. I have one book where venomous snakes play a significant role. I had to research that. It’s like, you go down that road, you say why did I do this?

Debbi: I know the feeling. Do you tend to outline or pants it when it comes to writing?

Dan: I do an initial very rough outline, and I usually know where the book’s going. I really mostly have the last page in mind and stick to it, but there’s a whole lot in the middle that I don’t do, that changes, so it’s a combination really. It’s not pure pantsing, but it’s more pantsing than plotting, I think. It’s plotting, but not a detailed outline.

I really mostly have the last page in mind and stick to it, but there’s a whole lot in the middle that I don’t do, that changes, so it’s a combination really. It’s not pure pantsing, but it’s more pantsing than plotting, I think.

Debbi: Exactly.

Dan: Jeffery Deaver type …

Debbi: Jeffrey Deaver just amazes me with what he does. I could never do that. It’d be like, okay, the book’s written.

Dan: And I do believe – not that I set out with that philosophy – I’ve done so many things that I hadn’t planned to do that I think worked out very well because you let the story kind of take you places soon.

Debbi: Exactly.

Dan: So I’m pretty happy with that approach.

Debbi: It’s when you have the most fun, I think when you’re writing, when the characters just kind of tell you to go this way, or the situation just seems to lend itself for going a slightly different way than maybe you anticipated. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in having a writing career?

Dan: That’s really hard because mine is so strange, but this is probably just what’s on my mind today is to be careful about following expert advice too much. There’s so much advice out there that is really formulaic that will turn you into a formula writer. A lot of it is very good and very important, but what you need to do is be able to say, that’s good and I need to think it through. That may or may not be for me, that sort of thing. It’s one of those things where you have to want to be taught, but be careful about just following along with your teachers instead of what you really think you need to do. I don’t want to say stick with it no matter what or any of that sort of thing, but in my own case, it just turns out if it’s really driving you, you’ll end up there one way or the other probably.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah.

Dan: I always wanted to do a little play where people like Shakespeare and the Russians and Faulkner and Fitzgerald and those guys were all students in a MFA class that all got Ds because they didn’t follow any of the rules.

Debbi: Nice idea. I like that. What are you working on now?

Dan: This is the fifth book in this O’Keefe series, and I managed to finally get out of the 80s into the early 90s here. It’s about the rise of the survivalist, anti-government, Christian identity, racist, neo-Nazi groups around that time. The whole witch’s brew that ultimately led to the Oklahoma City bombing.

Debbi: Mmm. Interesting. Sounds like you cover some really interesting topics in your books.

Dan: That’s what I like so much about this series. I mean, having started out not even thinking about writing crime books, then writing this one, it has provided me both an anchor and a compass in terms of where to go and hopefully dealing with some major issues in human life and in our lives as Americans, and doing it in a little more interesting way, trying to be somewhat thrilling but realistically so. That’s the intent anyway.

I mean, having started out not even thinking about writing crime books, then writing this one, it has provided me both an anchor and a compass in terms of where to go …

Debbi: That’s great. That really is wonderful what you’re doing. Is there anything else you would like to add before we finish up?

Dan: All of the O’Keefe books and the newest one,An American Tragedy is just in production right now, they are in every format you can think of, including audio books. I’ve resurrected the Dewdrops book, and I’m doing a new edition of it. Hope I’m not running out of time here, but I added a new story, so I’m doing a new edition and doing that as an audiobook. And this one part of it, the novella that was the play Dewdrops is a full cast audiobook. I tried to do it as a podcast but I don’t know how to distribute or market a podcast, so things like that are in process. And also, I probably should mention my website, danflaniganbooks is the website. Got some things on there.

Debbi: Interesting that you’re thinking about doing that as a scripted podcast, because I’ve been thinking about doing a scripted podcast for years.

Dan: And since I converted it from a play, it’s almost all dialogue anyway, so it’s set up really well for that.

Debbi: So you just add in some sound effects, a little sound design.

Dan: Yeah. I even have a song or two in it and stuff like that.

Debbi: All right. Sounds awesome. That’s fantastic. Well, I have to tell you, it’s been a pleasure talking to you, and it sounds like you’ve got some really cool things lined up.

Dan: I appreciate it. I started late. I have to get moving here and get things done.

Debbi: You are an indie author, right? Self-published still?

Dan: Yes.

Debbi: One of the awesome indies. Yay. Yay for us. Thank you so much for your time.

Dan: Thank you. If I have time, I want to add one more thing.

Debbi: Okay, sure.

Dan: I call O’Keefe a soft-boiled detective, not a hard-boiled detective.

Debbi: Oh, I like that. Soft-boiled! So not quite hard-boiled, but …

Dan: He doesn’t fit the cliché.

Debbi: Yeah, yeah. He’s not a cliché. He is his own private eye. Well, that’s awesome. I love it. I will definitely have to check out your books, because I was looking at your third book in the series, and I was like, oh my God, what happened to him with the … I won’t say it, but…

Dan: Oh yeah. A lot happened to him. I had to ease off that a little bit.

Debbi: Oh my gosh, yes. Wow. I was just like, oh, I can really feel that. It’s like, oh, oh, ouch. So anyway, I won’t tell you what happens in the beginning of the third book, but check it out for yourself. For everyone listening, I just want to say thank you for listening, and if you enjoyed the show, please leave a review on your favorite podcast platform, Apple or wherever. We also have a Patreon page where you can get early access to ad-free episodes, as well as bonus episodes and samples of my work. I’ve been posting chapters from my novels there, so paid members at a certain level can get access to those. And I’m also going to be putting some new stuff up there, so that should be interesting. In the meantime, our next guest will be Ted Flanagan. No relation that I know of. Different spelling.

Dan: Oh, really?

Debbi: Yeah, really. Spelled differently. So in any case, I will see you in a couple of weeks. Take care and happy reading.

Get the early, ad-free edition plus other perks, when you become a valued patron!

View Details

This week’s guest on the Crime Cafe podcast is historical crime writer Stephen Eoannou.

Check out our discussion about the creator of the Lone Ranger!

Grab a PDF copy of the transcript here!

Debbi: Hi, everyone. My guest today has published two novels with the third coming in May of next year. Along with novels, he has written at least one short screenplay. He lives and works in Buffalo, New York, which also provides the setting and inspiration for his work. It’s my pleasure to have with me today, the award-winning author Stephen Eoannou.

Stephen: There you go.

Debbi: Did I get that right?

Stephen: Yes.

Debbi: Awesome. Fantastic. So thank you for being with us today.

Stephen: Thank you for having me.

Debbi: I’m pleased to have you on. I really enjoyed your book Rook, your debut novel. That was a very interesting story. What inspired you to write about this particular man from the FBI’s Most Wanted List?

Stephen: Yeah. I had finished my first book Muscle Cars, which is a short story collection, and I was picking around trying to find an idea for the next project, and I can remember it vividly. It was a Sunday morning. I was standing in my kitchen and I was reading the newspaper. It was spread out on the kitchen table, and I saw an article, and the title of the article in the Buffalo News was “The Strange Tale of a Buffalo Bank Robber Turned Writer”, and that immediately caught my eye, thinking this maybe is another career avenue for myself. But I started reading this article about Al Nussbaum. I had never heard of the man before, and by the end of the article, I knew that I wanted to write about him.

I was standing in my kitchen and I was reading the newspaper. It was spread out on the kitchen table, and I saw an article, and the title of the article in the Buffalo News was “The Strange Tale of a Buffalo Bank Robber Turned Writer”

I wasn’t sure it was going to be a novel or a short story or what, but I knew I wanted to learn more about this man and write about him. And what fascinated me was not only was he this kind of cerebral bank robber who approached the robberies like chess matches – which he was an avid chess player – and he’s quoted as saying that robbing banks is like chess for cash prizes, which I think is a great quote. He became a writer when he was in prison, and he was a penny-a-word guy, Mike Shayne Mystery Magazine, Alfred Hitchcock. He even was writing for Scholastic Books, if anyone’s old enough to remember Scholastic Books.

Debbi: Oh, I do

Stephen: Yeah, me too. I still have a few of them. So the man who was doing time in Leavenworth was also writing Scholastic Books. He was just a fascinating character, and he was a Buffalo guy. I had kind of decided after I completed Muscle Cars that really Buffalo, New York was going to kind of be my literary turf I was going to carve out for myself. Kind of what William Kennedy did for Albany and Richard Russo did for upstate New York, the Catskill areas. That’s what I was going to do. And so this just kind of fell in my lap and I just kind of really became intrigued with Al and his story.

Debbi: Interesting. Very interesting that you were able to find this in the local paper, right?

Stephen: Well, what it was his daughter, who’s just an infant in the novel, she was trying to do a Kickstarter campaign to gather up all her father’s short stories and anthologized them, and so the newspaper did a feature on it. And what was really great about this whole experience with Rook is that since the publication, I’ve become friends with her. She lives about two hours away. She’s a retired attorney, not a defense attorney or criminal lawyer. We’ve had coffee a few times and she’s come to a couple of my events when I’m in the Central New York region, telling me some fascinating stories about her dad that I wish I knew while I was working on the manuscript.

Debbi: Interesting. Because this is a fictionalized account of a true story, were there permissions involved in terms of using his name and so forth?

Stephen: No, and I figured the legal team at the publisher would worry about that. I just wrote it the way I wanted to write it, and no one said anything. So we’ll just keep it amongst ourselves.

Debbi: Hard to say. Hard to say what happened. Okay. Your second novel is also historical. I take it that you’re basically focused on historical writing most of the time?

Stephen: Yeah. And that wasn’t the plan; I just kind of … I’ve always enjoyed it, but you know how these things are. You kind of stumble from one … an idea finds you and next thing you know, you’ve written a story set in the early 1960s, and now there’s a story, Yesteryear, the second novel was set in the early 1930s, the book that’s coming out in May is set in 1942. The thirties and forties have always been an era that has really intrigued me primarily because of my parents, that’s when they were growing up. And so I kind of grew up listening to their stories about growing up in the Depression, the immigration experience from my father coming from Greece. Just growing up with those stories, watching old movies like The Maltese Falcon with my dad. He was 20 when The Maltese Falcon came out, so he remembers that from his youth. That was kind of my upbringing, if you will, listening to those stories and watching those movies. Next thing you know, fast forward 40 or so years, and I’m writing about those types of things now. So you never know what’s going to percolate up to the top when you’re in the creative mode.

The thirties and forties have always been an era that has really intrigued me primarily because of my parents, that’s when they were growing up. And so I kind of grew up listening to their stories about growing up in the Depression, the immigration experience from my father coming from Greece.

Debbi: Exactly. Yes, and that era is very inspiring. There’s so much from it that informs what we do today.

Stephen: Yeah, and my mom always said, she chastised me. She goes, you romanticize that period, but it was really hard. The Depression and World War. You romanticize it, and she was absolutely right. I do.

Debbi: Absolutely. I was fascinated by the subject of Yesteryear, which was a playwright that I had never known about who created the Lone Ranger. Tell us how you got interested in that.

Stephen: Another Buffalo boy, and I had never heard about him either. I was at a party or a bar somewhere where they were serving alcohol, and someone said to me, well, you know the guy who wrote the Lone Ranger is from Buffalo? And I said, no, he’s not. I would’ve known about that. I mean, Buffalo is very good about promoting any creative person who’s been successful, no matter what the connection. Mark Twain was the editor of the Courier Express newspaper for two years. He’s a Buffalo writer. We made him our own. So for someone who … because Fran wrote not only the Lone Ranger, but also the Green Hornet and Sergeant Prescott of the Yukon, so he has a huge influence on 20th century pop culture, and no one’s really heard of him.

I think because he sold the rights to the Lone Ranger for $10 before the Lone Ranger just exploded into this 90-year money making franchise. And to make matters worse, the man he sold it to for $10, George W. Trendle, who owned WXYZ radio in Detroit where the Lone Ranger was broadcast from, started claiming in the 1940s that he was the creator of the Lone Ranger, not Striker. So Fran kind of missed out on the fame as well as the fortune, because if you think about not only the radio and the TV show and the movies, think of the comic books that Fran wrote. There were a dozen or so hardback novels published in the thirties and forties that Striker wrote, the comic strips that appeared in over 200 newspapers, all the spinoff toys. The Lone Ranger is one of the first kind of crossover into marketing and spiffs and toys. So all the masks and hats and holsters and all that money bypassed Striker and went to Trendle.

I think because he sold the rights to the Lone Ranger for $10 before the Lone Ranger just exploded into this 90-year money making franchise.

When Trendle sold the rights in the mid-fifties, he sold the rights for $3 million, which was a record in the entertainment industry at that time. I think Fran was working for him up until that time as head writer at WXYZ, but he may have received a bonus from that 3 million, but certainly not the millions that Trendle made.

Debbi: Oh, my gosh. It just goes to show you the importance of owning the intellectual property.

Stephen: And you know? It’s a common story. You look at all these artists – visual artists, literary, musical. When it’s a new medium or something new like the early days of rock and roll, and you think of all the African-American early rock and rollers who were screwed terribly with their contracts and rights. It seems like every time there’s something new, a new medium, a new form, the artists are so desperate to get that work out there that they get taken advantage of.

Debbi: Yes, definitely. Yes. That is definitely true. It’s a shame. So your latest one coming out next May about the private eye named Nicholas Bishop. He has a background from World War I that he carries into the story, correct?

Stephen: He has got a lot of baggage that he carries. A lot of abandonment issues, alcoholism, he may or may not have stepped in front of a taxi cab on purpose that has left him with a limp and unable to serve in World War II. His alcoholism is out of control, and when the novel begins, he wakes up on the floor of a hotel room where he’s the house detective, because he has lost his private practice, he’s lost his secretary, who he has been in love with forever. He can’t find his car, and he wakes up on the floor after a five-day bender, can’t remember anything, and two shots were fired from his gun and the police are downstairs. They want to talk to him. And that’s how the novel begins.

His alcoholism is out of control, and when the novel begins … he wakes up on the floor after a five-day bender, can’t remember anything, and two shots were fired from his gun and the police are downstairs.

I call it my pandemic novel, even though it has nothing to do with any type of pandemic, except the one that we were going through when I wrote it. I started it right before the lockdown and finished it two years later, which is pretty quick for me because there was nothing to do except write, so that’s why it’s my pandemic novel. I was alone in a big house with a little one-eyed dog during the lockdown, and Nicholas Bishop has a one-eyed dog that he doesn’t know where it came from. He just woke up on the floor and it was there. He names the dog Jake, and finds out later it’s a female dog. So Bishop has all sorts of things going on in his life.

Debbi: Well, it sounds intriguing, I have to tell you. What kind of writing schedule do you keep?

Stephen: I’ve been pretty disciplined for a long time. I get up at five and I write from five to seven, every day. That’s my goal. Sometimes I can go longer. Sometimes after my day job, if I still have some creative energy, I’ll do some at night or some editing, and if I miss for whatever reason, I try to make that up on the weekend. So every morning, quarter to five, the alarm goes off or I wake up on my own, because I’ve been doing it for so long. And when I was about halfway through Rook, it was about this time of year, mid-October, early November. It was starting to get cold up here in Western New York and dark in the morning, and for like three days in a row, I just could not get out of bed and go up to my office to write. I was awake, but I just could not get out of bed. And of course, you beat yourself up about it.

And then I realized, smart guy that I am, I could just bring my laptop from my office downstairs and just put it next to my bed. And so at five o’clock, I just reach over and grab my laptop. So there’s no rituals, there’s no coffee, there’s no tea, there’s no candles, there’s no music. I just literally prop myself up on the pillows and write in bed. And that’s where I’ve been doing the majority of my writing, or splitting it up in my office.

So there’s no rituals, there’s no coffee, there’s no tea, there’s no candles, there’s no music. I just literally prop myself up on the pillows and write in bed.

Debbi: There’s a famous author that used to do that. I can’t think of his name now.

Stephen: Oh, it’s crazy stuff. Hemingway wrote standing up, Dalton Trumbo wrote in the bathtub. So for right now anyways, that’s my routine. I would like to wake up at seven, walk my little one-eyed dog and then start writing at eight, but that’s not possible right now with the day job.

Debbi: So you work around the day job. I’m impressed. Very. But how much research do you do when you write historical novels? I mean, what kind of research?

Stephen: A lot went into Yesteryear. Of the three novels, Yesteryear required the most research. Research on the early days of radio, research certainly on Fran Striker’s life, research on the Lone Ranger. I was very fortunate when Fran passed away in the early 1960s, the Striker Estate left all of his papers to the University of Buffalo, and I’m an alumni. There were about 14 cartons that they have in their special collections, and it is just a treasure trove – letters, telegraphs, handwritten manuscripts, typed manuscripts with notes on them. So I would go online – they had an inventory of the cartons – and I would put in my request that on Thursday, I would like to come in at 10 o’clock and review the contents of carton number 12. I would get to the special libraries collection at 10 o’clock, and there it would be waiting for me, and I’d put on my white gloves, and I would hold an original Lone Ranger radio script from 1932. It was just fascinating. So a lot of research went into that book. In the back of Yesteryear, there’s a bibliography, because a lot went into it.

I was very fortunate when Fran passed away in the early 1960s, the Striker Estate left all of his papers to the University of Buffalo, and I’m an alumni.

There wasn’t as much written about Al Nussbaum, but it was fun research, tracking down on eBay the young adult novels that he wrote for Scholastic books and buying those, and researching the newspapers about his career in crime and then his arrest. Just really fascinating stuff. So a lot of time spent at the downtown library going through microfiches for that novel. With After Pearl, it wasn’t as extensive. This isn’t based on any historical figure like the first two novels were, so much of the research was just about what it was life like in 1942 Buffalo, New York. What did a carton of Chesterfields cost or a gallon of gas? What nightclubs were around? I knew a few of them from my parents’ stories, but where might he hang out? So that again, was reading old newspapers, not looking for anything in particular, but just going and reading the advertisements from the department stores of that time to see what they were selling. And what was really fascinating, you read the front page from 1942, and it’s not much different than what’s going on today. The same countries, the same stories, the same local corruption. It is really kind of disheartening in that regard.

And what was really fascinating, you read the front page from 1942, and it’s not much different than what’s going on today. The same countries, the same stories, the same local corruption. It is really kind of disheartening in that regard.

Debbi: Yes. Everything old is new again, or something like that. So have you ever thought of writing a series?

Stephen: Well, it’s a funny story. So I finished After Pearl, and I had my little writing group of these wonderful women I met in grad school at the Queens University of Charlotte. So there’s Ashley Warlick who wrote The Arrangement, a great crime novelist, Carla Damron who wrote The Orchid Tattoo, her latest. Beth Johnson and Araminta Hall. And so that’s my writing group. We’ve been together forever. I sent it to Carla first and I said, Hey, can you take a look at this? And she read it, and the first question she asked was, is this a series? I said, no, it’s a standalone. I just wrote it during the lockdown. She made some suggestions. I made my corrections, sent it out to Ashley. First question she asks, is this a series? I said, no, I just wrote it during the pandemic. It’s a standalone. Going to move on to something else. I sent it to my publisher, and he comes back and says, is this a series? Because I think Netflix might like something like this.

Debbi: Oh yes!

Stephen: I said, yes, it’s a series with no idea what the second book is going to be about. But I said, absolutely. It’s a series.

Debbi: Of course it is

Stephen: And so now I’m working on the second book in the Nicholas Bishop series

Debbi: On the subject of Netflix, now that you’ve mentioned it, what about this award-winning short screenplay of yours? How did you get into screenwriting?

Stephen: It was funny. That screenplay is called Slip Kid, and it’s based on a short story. It’s kind of the centerpiece to my short story collection Muscle Cars, but originally that was going to be my first novel. It dealt with a true story. When I was 16, my parish priest was murdered in a botched robbery at the local Greek church here, and they didn’t catch the killers for a few months so it was always in the news. It turns out that they were just teenagers, 17, 18 years old that made some terrible, awful choices with huge ramifications. The novel didn’t work so I cut it down to a long short story. I still wasn’t finished with it yet. It still wouldn’t leave me.

I was, at the time, just graduating from Queens, and I had a lot of friends who were in the screenwriting program, and they were always talking about writing screenplays and what they’re working on and the challenges. I said, well, I’m going to try that, and so I bought the software and hopefully it was going to be a feature, but I couldn’t make it into a feature. It was only a short, and then I finished it, I go, well, now what do I do with it? And they said, well, just submit it for some prizes. The Denver Film Festival was having a contest and one of the categories was original short film. So I submitted it and kind of forgot about it, to be honest with you, and the next thing I know, I’m getting this email that I won. So it was a shock, but a lot of fun.

They flew me out to Denver. I got to walk the red carpet. I went to all the screenings. I’d never been to a film festival before. Andy Garcia was there.

They flew me out to Denver. I got to walk the red carpet. I went to all the screenings. I’d never been to a film festival before. Andy Garcia was there. It was just a ton of fun and something that normally would not happen to me, but it was a great thrill. I’ve written one or two screenplays since, but I haven’t done anything with them. I really see myself in it. I’ve always seen myself as a novelist, and that’s really my main pursuit right now.

Debbi: Have you ever considered writing a scripted podcast?

Stephen: I never have, but that might be interesting.

Debbi: Because that’s something I’ve considered.

Stephen: Yeah. I’ve never done that, but that’s something to think about.

Debbi: Hmm. Cool. Keep thinking about it.

Stephen: Yes, while I try to come up with the third Nicholas Bishop novel.

Debbi: Maybe Nicholas Bishop would make a great radio show, so to speak.

Stephen: Yes, absolutely.

Debbi: “So to speak”, yes because that’s what scripted podcasts basically are.

Stephen: Right, right.

Debbi: What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in writing for a living or just having a writing career?

Stephen: Don’t give up. It’s not original, but it took me 30 years to get my first book published. I went the traditional route because when I started out wanting to be a writer in the mid-eighties, there really wasn’t … self-publishing really was frowned upon. Right. It was a vanity press.

Don’t give up. It’s not original, but it took me 30 years to get my first book published.

Debbi: Oh boy, was it!

Stephen: It had a stigma attached to it, it was cheating, so that was never really a consideration for me. So I took the traditional route. And about that time, in the mid to late eighties, that’s when all these American novelists all around 30 were getting their first books published. Jay McInerney, Bret Easton Ellis, Bret Lott, Michael Chabon, all those guys. They’re a little bit older than me. They were probably around 30, I was in my mid-twenties. I said, well, that’s going to be me. I’m in grad school, I’ll have my first novel when I’m 30. I was sure of it, and then my 30th birthday came, and then my 40th birthday came, and then my 50th birthday came.

Debbi: I know that feeling.

Stephen: I think Muscle Cars came out in 2015 when I was 52, so I was not an overnight sensation. But I was trying all those years, writing poorly, getting a lot of rejections, trying to get better at my craft. Something happened when I went to Queens, not that getting an MFA is the answer for a writing career, but I think what it was, was for the first time I was surrounded by a group of writers and I found my group that you could share work with and get feedback and give feedback in an honest and constructive way. And like I said, that group that I’ve been together with, those women I mentioned earlier, it’s been over 10 years now that we’ve been doing this. That I think made a huge difference, having that network which I never had.

I tried to get into different writing groups throughout the years, but usually I was the one who took it the most seriously. Most of them were there for the food and the wine, which I enjoyed, but when you tell me I wrote this story on the bus ride this morning, how good is it going to be? Or how valuable is your critique going to be if you just did it on the ride over to the workshop or meeting? So it took me a long time to find my network, my group, and once I did that, and plus you do anything for 30 years, you get better eventually. So I think the two all came together at Queens and that really kind of set me on this path that I’m on. So the last 10 years have just been for me, an explosion of creativity and productivity.

Debbi: That’s fantastic. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Stephen: No, except maybe go to my website, which is SGeoannou.com. There’s a ton of information about that, about my books and my bio and appearances. But I always say the most important part of my webpage is the final tab, and that’s the contact page, so any readers out there who want to have me come to their book club, or if they just want to ask me questions or just drop me a note, I answer all of them. It’s the best part really when you get an email from someone who’s curious about your work and what you’re doing. I love that. So I encourage everyone to go out there.

Debbi: That’s excellent. Wonderful. Thank you so much.

Stephen: Oh, thank you. I had fun.

Debbi: It was a pleasure talking to you. Thank you.

Stephen: Oh, it was great.

Debbi: Thanks. With that, I will just say thank you for listening and, if you would, if you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review. They help with the algorithms. It’s so nice to be judged by bits and bytes of data, isn’t it? Anyway, these things do help so please leave a review if you enjoyed the episode. And we also have a Patreon page with benefits for patrons, so please check it out. Until next time, when our guest will be Dan Flanagan, take care and happy reading.

Enjoy the show? Consider becoming a patron!

View Details

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with paleontologist and crime writer Leonard “Kris” Krystalka.

Check out his reading from The Bone Field!

Grab a PDF copy of the transcript here!

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today is both a professional paleontologist and a novelist. He writes the Henry Przewalski – is that correct, I hope? Przewalski?

Leonard: Literally, it reads as Przewalski but it’s actually a Russian-Polish name, named for the discoverer of Przewalski’s horse, that small kind of dwarfish horse that lives wild on the Asian steppes. So it’s pronounced in the Russian sense.

Debbi: Got it. All right. I’ll try to remember that. It’s my pleasure to have him with me today. It’s Leonard Krystalka, who goes by Kris. Like Kris Kristofferson, may he rest in peace.

Leonard: May he rest in peace. A terrific person.

Debbi: Indeed. Yes.

Leonard: Yes. Wonderful artist.

Debbi: He was, yes. I want to thank you for being here so much. It’s good to have you on. Tell us about Harry Przewalski. I almost screwed that up again. How much did you draw from your own experiences in creating him?

Leonard: A great deal. I named Harry Przewalski as a homage to the study of the life of the past and the study of present biodiversity. So, Przewalski’s horse is this miniature horse that roams wild on the steppes of Asia. It almost became extinct by over hunting, and in World War II, the German soldiers ate what is reputed to be some of the last Przewalski’s horses in a zoo in Poland. But enough were saved to repopulate the wild steppes of Asia.

Przewalski’s horse is this miniature horse that roams wild on the steppes of Asia. It almost became extinct by over hunting, and in World War II, the German soldiers ate what is reputed to be some of the last Przewalski’s horses in a zoo in Poland.

Debbi: Interesting. Did you choose that name deliberately?

Leonard: I did. I chose it deliberately, although it’s hard to pronounce, and as a homage to the paleontological studies of the evolutionary history of life on Earth, the three billion year history of life on Earth.

Debbi: That is so cool. How many books do you have in the series, and how many do you plan to write? Or do you have a plan for the series?

Leonard: There are four books now in the Harry Przewalski series. There’s THE BONE FIELD, DEATH SPOKE, THE CAMEL DRIVER, and the newest one just published this year called NATIVE BLOOD. I have a fifth novel, which is not in that series. It’s a historical fiction of a murder that occurred in Lawrence, Kansas in 1871. A doctor accused of murdering his patient because he was having an affair with the patient’s wife. The doctor was arrested and the resulting trial was equivalent to … imagine the OJ Simpson trial in 1871 in Kansas. You have sex, you have murder, you have adultery.

It attracted reporters of every single newspaper in the country from San Francisco, from Chicago, from St. Louis, from New York, Washington, Detroit, and so forth. This is 1871 Kansas. It’s only six years after the end of the Civil War. So the trial was a national sensation, and one of the Lawrence women becomes the heroine. She talks the editor of one of the Lawrence newspapers into hiring her as the first woman correspondent west of the Mississippi. She covers the trial and solves the murder.

Debbi: Wow.

Leonard: She also fights for women’s rights. She fights for suffrage for women and blacks. Yeah, she’s quite a woman.

Debbi: And which book is this again?

Leonard: This is called THE BODY ON THE BED. I could hold it up for viewers to see.

Debbi: That’s very cool. I noticed that book was outside the series.

Leonard: Yeah, it is. I’m writing the sequel to that now. It’s called The Body on the Bricks. She is the heroine of that book as well. But your original question was about the Przewalski series of which there are now four, and yes, there may well be a fifth.

Debbi: Fantastic. Do you see yourself ending this series in a particular way, or do you just think you’re going to keep writing them?

Leonard: That’s a really good question. Yeah, I do see myself ending the Przewalski series in a way that does poetic justice to Harry’s character, how he thinks, how he acts, and when he would take off his gun and put it away somewhere and say, I’m going to do something else.

I do see myself ending the Przewalski series in a way that does poetic justice to Harry’s character, how he thinks, how he acts, and when he would take off his gun and put it away somewhere and say, I’m going to do something else.

Debbi: Yeah. So putting up the guns and retiring at some point.

Leonard: Correct.

Debbi: In what ways does your protagonist differ from you?

Leonard: Well, Harry is not me. Of course, as with any writer, there are parts of you that you cannot help but insert into characters – experience, emotions, the way one thinks, senses of humor, senses of tragedy. In all of those ways, yes, there are parts of Harry that come from my life and my experience. But there’s a great deal to Harry that isn’t like me. So, for example, Harry was a student of paleontology and quit when his fiancé, who was a social worker, was brutally raped and murdered by a social misfit. He left his studies. He went to volunteer for a war in Iraq. He came back with a gun and a license to detect. That’s not me.

Debbi: So he’s a veteran.

Leonard: Yes.

Debbi: Wow. Yeah. That will have an effect on you.

Leonard: And he uses his skills that he learned by thinking as a paleontologist about those scarce clues, about a bone here, a tooth there or a skull there, to piece together the evolution of life on earth. He uses those skills of piecing together clues from different spheres to solve murder mysteries, which are all wrapped inside science intrigues as well.

He uses those skills of piecing together clues from different spheres to solve murder mysteries, which are all wrapped inside science intrigues as well.

So for example, The Bone Field investigates a paleontologist who is murdered for scientific glory, for fame, for one of the fault lines in the human condition that I like to write about. I think the job of every novelist is to explore the fault lines in the human condition, and the mystery genre, the hardboiled mystery genre, is a perfect vehicle for exploring those fault lines. So in The Bone Field, I quote John Wolcott, a Scottish satirist who wrote “the rage for fame infects both great and small! Better be damned than mentioned not at all.” That infects a great deal of science intrigues. So there’s a great deal of paleontological intrigue, geological intrigue, and of course, murder and betrayal in The Bone Field.

In the second book, in Death Spoke, the scientific intrigue is the archeology of prehistoric art. Who painted the spectacular bison and deer and horses and mammoths and the caves of France 12,000 to 34,000 years ago? And why didn’t they paint in those caves? Why didn’t they paint the outside environment? Sky, clouds, trees, grass, water, lakes, streams? There is an answer to that, which you will not hear in archeology class, but if your audience wants to read Death Spoke, they’ll find out the answer to that question.

Debbi: Fascinating. That really is fascinating. I’m intrigued by the science here. How much scientific detail do you include in your books?

Leonard: A great deal, but the trick in writing the scientific parts is interweaving the murder story, the detective story with the scientific mystery, so that the two are inseparable and both of them are page turners.

Debbi: Exactly. Yeah.

Leonard: So that one compliments the other. So in what I just mentioned about the novel Death Spoke, the solution to the mystery of who were the artists and why did they paint art in the deepest recesses of the caves, and why only those four animals in almost 99% of the caves, that mystery is interwoven with solving the murder mystery.

Debbi: That is really cool. That is so cool. Have you ever thought of writing a mystery with dinosaur bones for kids?

Leonard: That’s a really good question. I used to make up stories for my kids and not read it, but relate it at bedtime. And they loved those stories. I wish I’d written them down, and they did have dinosaurs. Yes.

Debbi: Oh my gosh, because kids seem to love dinosaurs, and I thought right away that you’d be a natural at telling that kind of story.

Leonard: Yes, they do.

Debbi: Wow. Do you work full-time as a paleontologist?

Leonard: I did work full-time as a paleontologist. I don’t anymore. I go into the field once in a while, still excavating dinosaurs and other fossils in Montana, but I am not a professional paleontologist any longer in terms of publishing in the field, writing scientific articles and so forth. I’ve switched from that to writing about paleontology and archeology especially, in my mystery novels.

Debbi: That’s really interesting and cool. What kind of writing schedule do you keep?

Leonard: I don’t, and I wish I was disciplined enough to keep a writing schedule, then I would finish a novel in six months or a year, rather than take two years to write a novel. It’s easy to procrastinate. It’s easy to do other things that one enjoys. Reading. I’m an avid cyclist, so I do a great deal of cycling that takes a great deal of time. I like to camp and so on.

Debbi: That’s great. That’s wonderful actually. What was it that drew you to the field of paleontology?

Leonard: Say that again.

Debbi: What was it that drew you to the field of paleontology?

Leonard: That’s a good question. There are two passions that made me a paleontologist. First was the passion of ideas, and in many ways, my novels are about those ideas. Paleontology asks ultimate questions. What triggered the myriad explosions and extinctions of life on the planet during the past 3 billion years? That’s an ultimate question. Hundreds of millions of species came and went on land and in the waters, from the tiny one celled algae, all the way to the dinosaur that everybody knows – Tyrannosaurus Rex. So basal to that answer is the tree of life. And as a paleontologist I try to decipher that 3 billion year tree of life on Earth.

The other answer was the passion of place. The Badlands, where the rocks are preserved in a row, wrote all the answers to the ultimate questions that paleontology asks. It’s only in the Badlands that you find all those fossils. And for me, the Badlands are primeval. Those canyons, stark rubble strewn, the buttes rising in stacked layers of red and gray and blue, much like people would see in the Grand Canyon. Every time you find a fossil, you can imagine that the earth itself has bled from the red rocks. As a city kid – I was born and raised in Montreal in Canada – so as a city kid, when I first saw the Badlands, I was seduced by their beauty. And for me, it was a beauty so terrible that it hurt the heart.

Debbi: I know the feeling. I am originally from New York City, and then I moved to Fresno, California, and it was like, oh, look at this place. No big tall buildings. I feel like I’m out in the open at last.

Leonard: Right, right.

Debbi: Yeah. It’s almost a shock, almost a culture shock to go from that to Fresno, California. What authors do you like to read, and what authors have inspired your writing?

Leonard: That is a great question. Let’s see. I actually have a list because I don’t want to leave anybody out. Who do I like to read? I grew up on Rex Stout and his Nero Wolfe mysteries. I used to reread them every few years. The stories are entertaining. They’re almost mannered. They’re set in New York where you’re from, but what stayed with me when I read them was Rex Stout’s craft as a writer, as a storyteller. I also read all of Dashiell Hammett, Raymond Chandler, James Cain. They introduced me to that streetwise, hard-boiled detective. The private eye, the simple short, declarative sentence. Ernest Hemingway introduced me to that as well, the wisecrack. And it also revealed how the gritty alleys of Los Angeles and other cities are perfect settings to fester the strands of human rot, and to tell the story of the gritty underbelly of human life and the human condition. This is why the detective story is so perfect.

I continued reading Ross Macdonald, James Crumley, whose prose is unmatched. For readers out there, the best dialogue, the absolute master of dialogue is Elmore Leonard. Boy, he paints his characters, their plots, the emotions, their psyches. He paints it with their words, how they speak, their expressions, their syncopation. When I read these authors, I find myself envious saying, damn, I wish I’d written that sentence.

The same holds for – of course, Elmore Leonard is dead, but the same holds for current writers. Ian Rankin, Lawrence Block, James Lee Burke, James Ellroy. Readers can’t go wrong. If you’re an aspiring detective writer, start with James Crumley. Start with A Kiss Before Dying and then go on.

Debbi: It’s been ages since I’ve read that, and I have to go back and look at it again, because boy, that name. James Crumley. I remember.

Leonard: In The Bone Field, I paid homage to him because I named the sheriff of a town in Wyoming after him. His name is Crumley.

Debbi: Oh, cool. Very cool. I love the way you said that the private eye novel, the hardboiled detective novel, is the perfect type of book to show the fault lines in the human condition. I think “fault lines in the human condition” has to be one of my favorite phrases.

Leonard: Right.

Debbi: That is so great.

Leonard: So if I could elaborate on that. My novels are classified as and we’re talking about them as murder mysteries, archeological thrillers, paleontological thrillers, and they fit the stereotype. There are murders committed, there are murders solved, there’s a private detective and so on. But the mystery classification is simplistic. For me – and I’m saying this for all your readers, all your listeners – for me, the best works in the mystery genre, Raymond Chandler, Elmore Leonard, I’ve talked about them before, James Crumley, Dorothy L. Sayers, they are much more than whodunits. They explore the fault lines in the human condition, and the best ones are as good as the classics in literature.

[F]or me, the best works in the mystery genre, Raymond Chandler, Elmore Leonard, I’ve talked about them before, James Crumley, Dorothy L. Sayers, they are much more than whodunits. They explore the fault lines in the human condition, and the best ones are as good as the classics in literature.

Mystery novels, private eye novels, they have the reputation of B-literature. I disagree with that entirely. It’s just like Humphrey Bogart films used to be called B-films, but now they’re rated just as classic as all the other classics. So the best mystery/private eye novels explore the same fault lines in the human condition as the classics in literature. The book of Job, Shakespeare’s Hamlet, Tony Morrison’s Beloved, Chinua Achebe’s Things Fall Apart, Christopher Marlowe’s Doctor Faustus. Those all made impressions on me. So in the best mysteries, just like in the classics and literature, their characters are just as flawed, just as heroic. The relationships are just as conflicted. The seven deadly sins are just as deadly, and the stories expose the same gritty underbelly of life.

Debbi: Yes. It seems like your books, the scientific part of it can even border a little on philosophy there.

Leonard: Correct, correct.

Debbi: Quite a bit actually.

Leonard: Yes. There’s quite a bit of philosophy and I don’t hesitate to kind of throw a couple of philosophical thoughts in. For example, I can read a small portion of The Bone Field where Harry likens geology to the human condition. He’s standing in the Badlands and he’s thinking, he’s looking over them.

There’s quite a bit of philosophy and I don’t hesitate to kind of throw a couple of philosophical thoughts in.

“Weathering was ceaseless. This endless war of attrition between earth and sun and wind and rain. The land trying to stay in equilibrium with the elements and failing. It was like the geology of a love affair, Harry thought. The silent abrasion of its intimate contours to a flat, monochromatic terrain. So in many ways, our life, human relationships are as much like the Grand Canyon, exposed to the elements, being eroded grain by grain, by grain, ultimately failing.”

Debbi: Ooh, that’s beautiful. Have you ever thought about doing voice acting or audiobook reading?

Leonard: I did record The Bone Field as an audiobook. It’s available as an audiobook, and I’ve also recorded The Body on the Bed, but it is not out yet.

Debbi: What a great voice!

Leonard: Thank you. Thank you.

Debbi: It’s beautiful. Beautiful writing, too.

Leonard: Thank you.

Debbi: What advice would you give to anyone who wants a writing career?

Leonard: That too is a great question. I would say rule number one: take chances. Art and science, the writing, the crafting of a novel, that art and the science of that art, art and science are subversive storytelling. They’re the risky search for uncomfortable truth, and that’s what those novels should explore. Uncomfortable truth. Writing a novel isn’t meant to be comfortable. I’m going to quote George Orwell. “Good novels are written by people who are not frightened.”

Debbi: I love that.

Leonard: And for me, what always happens … I think of the novel as an unbridled horse, a horse you cannot control. The novel is the wagon, and the horse is pulling the wagon, and you’re sitting on the wagon. Suddenly the horse goes down an alley that was unexpected, unexplored. Let your writing violate the storyboard if you use one. Go off the storyboard. I don’t use the storyboard. I let the horse and the wagon drag me where it does, and those alleys unexplored are the most rewarding moments of writing. Like many other authors would say, let your voice emerge naturally, unforced. Don’t try to imitate anybody else’s voice. Don’t worry about being off-key. You can always put it back into the key when you edit, but just let it flow.

I think of the novel as an unbridled horse, a horse you cannot control. The novel is the wagon, and the horse is pulling the wagon, and you’re sitting on the wagon.

Be smart, be scrupulous, be forthright. Like Steinbeck said, the discipline of the written word punishes both stupidity and dishonesty. Be honest. Don’t be stupid. Do your research. Write what you know, know what you write. Immerse yourself in the research that goes into the novel. My advice and one I try and follow for every writer, when you write your novel, make readers want to pause at every sentence or at most sentences and say to themselves, damn, I wish I’d written that sentence because every elegant sentence is for me, a novel’s literary heaven, because otherwise, as William Styron quipped, writing is hell.

Debbi: Well, on that note, I just want to say thank you, and is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Leonard: No. The act of writing is one of the most enjoyable and painful. Writing is hell, but writing is also heaven bound.

Debbi: I hate to write, but I love to have written, as Dorothy Parker once put it. Well, I just want to thank you again for being here. It was great talking to you. I could talk to you for hours, probably about this whole subject.

Leonard: Thank you very much. Thank you for this podcast. I really appreciate it.

Debbi: It’s my pleasure, believe me. So everybody, if you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review if you would on Apple or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you are a regular listener, check out our Patreon page. My work is up there. I’ve got samples of my work, ad-free episodes, and bonus episodes as well. So with that, I will just say, until next time, I’ll be seeing you and take care. Enjoy a good book. Happy reading and talk to you later.

If you enjoyed this episode, you’ll get more if you become a patron!

View Details

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe features another story from The Adventures of Philip Marlowe.

This episode comes to you ad-free. Relatively. 🙂

The following is an unedited AI-generated transcript. Does an awesome job, huh? 🙂

(00:00:12):
Hi, everyone.

(00:00:14):
This is The Crime Café, your podcasting source of great crime suspense and thriller writing.

(00:00:20):
I’m your host, Debbi Mack.

(00:00:22):
Before I bring on my guest,

(00:00:23):
I’ll just remind you that The Crime Café has two e-books for sale,

(00:00:28):
the nine-book box set and the short story anthology.

(00:00:31):
You can find the buy links for both on my website, debbiemack.com, under the Crime Café link.

(00:00:38):
If you’d like to

(00:00:39):
You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter.

(00:00:45):
You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon,

(00:00:49):
along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

(00:00:53):
Unfortunately, our scheduled guest was unable to make it this week.

(00:00:58):
However,

(00:00:58):
I have instead another episode from the files of Philip Marlowe,

(00:01:02):
Private Eye,

(00:01:04):
Daring Young Dame on the Flying Trapeze.

(00:01:06):
Enjoy!

(00:01:11):
For the safety of your smile, use Pepsodent twice a day, see your dentist twice a year.

(00:01:27):
Lever Brothers Company presents the Pepsodent program,

(00:01:30):
The Adventures of Philip Marlowe,

(00:01:32):
starring Van Heflin.

(00:01:40):
Pepsodent presents Philip Marlowe, Raymond Chandler’s famous private detective.

(00:01:45):
You’ve seen him on the screen in Lady and the Lake,

(00:01:47):
Murder,

(00:01:47):
My Sweet,

(00:01:48):
The Brasher Doubloon,

(00:01:49):
and The Big Sleep.

(00:01:50):
Now Pepsodent brings you the adventures of Philip Marlowe on the air and starring

(00:01:55):
MGM’s brilliant and dynamic young actor,

(00:01:57):
Van Heflin.

(00:01:59):
Pepsodent

(00:02:15):
There comes a certain time in the year when I don’t want to see midget auto races.

(00:02:19):
I just want to see midgets.

(00:02:21):
When I prefer sawdust to stardust, and popcorn to all other kinds of corn available in Hollywood.

(00:02:28):
The circus was moving in on the grounds at Washington Boulevard and Hill Street,

(00:02:32):
and I was turning in my usual fine job as sidewalk supervisor.

(00:02:37):
It was exciting.

(00:02:38):
It brought back all the sounds and sensations and convictions of childhood.

(00:02:43):
And then someone had me firmly by the wrist,

(00:02:45):
and I turned to look into a pair of steady,

(00:02:47):
smoky,

(00:02:48):
dark eyes that could be dangerous.

(00:02:51):
Excuse me, sir, but you are a private detective?

(00:02:54):
I’m a detective, but I don’t get much privacy.

(00:02:57):
Yeah, my name is Ralph Tassinari.

(00:03:00):
Who told you I was a detective?

(00:03:01):
My feet aren’t that flat.

(00:03:03):
Do you know a gentleman named Al Sicanolfi?

(00:03:06):
Well, I know an Al Sicanolfi.

(00:03:08):
He pointed you out.

(00:03:09):
He asked me what was the big idea.

(00:03:11):
What was my angle hiring a private detective?

(00:03:13):
He gave me an idea.

(00:03:14):
When has Al Sicanolfi had any ideas to spare?

(00:03:17):
Mr. Marlowe, besides owning one-third of this very fine little circus, I am Tassinari.

(00:03:23):
Of Tassinari, the Swede, and Glorian.

(00:03:26):
Trafisto.

(00:03:27):
The most brilliant aerial act in the business.

(00:03:29):
I own this circus with Glorian and the Swede.

(00:03:32):
Well, where does Al Sicanolfi fit in here?

(00:03:34):
Now, the Swede gets drunk and gambles fantastic sums of money.

(00:03:38):
This circus is worth a quarter of a million dollars.

(00:03:40):
Already, the Swede has gambled away much more than his third of the circus.

(00:03:44):
And a partner may sell out his other partners without even consulting them.

(00:03:48):
Oh, you’re afraid the Swede will sell you out to pay for his debts.

(00:03:50):
Yeah, and if he did that, I should not hesitate to… Uh-oh, watch yourself.

(00:03:58):
Uh, I’ll take it off.

(00:04:00):
It has made it plain that the gamblers expect payment immediately.

(00:04:04):
Would you consider giving us your protection during the three days we’re going to be here?

(00:04:09):
$25 a day in expenses.

(00:04:10):
That’s the nut.

(00:04:12):
Cheap enough.

(00:04:13):
I know, but you see, I’m a sucker for circuses.

(00:04:28):
Yeah?

(00:04:28):
Is this the office of Philip Marlowe?

(00:04:30):
Better still, this is Philip Marlowe.

(00:04:34):
Didn’t he?

(00:04:35):
Go ahead.

(00:04:35):
This is his partner, Glorianne.

(00:04:37):
I’m in a downtown bar with a Swede, and he’s terribly drunk.

(00:04:40):
I know this isn’t your job, but won’t you come down and help me get him sobered up for the night?

(00:04:45):
Please?

(00:04:46):
All right.

(00:04:47):
Mother Marlowe will be right down.

(00:04:48):
I found the Main Street bar where Glorianne said I’d find her and the Swede.

(00:05:01):
The Swede was potted like Grandma’s begonia.

(00:05:04):
And with the help of the bartender and four professional loafers, we got him into my car.

(00:05:09):
I told Gloria to drive.

(00:05:10):
Ah, ah, lay me alone, will you?

(00:05:12):
I’m all right.

(00:05:13):
Well, just take it easy.

(00:05:14):
Where shall I drive, Mr. Marlowe?

(00:05:15):
Jordan Street Receiving Hospital.

(00:05:17):
I’ll stay back here and wrestle the Swede for the championship.

(00:05:20):
I just left him alone for an hour to do some shopping.

(00:05:25):
I’m telling you something, honey girl.

(00:05:27):
That Tesson there, he makes any more passes at you, I’ll beat him brainless.

(00:05:31):
Oh, please don’t pay any attention to him, Mr. Marlowe.

(00:05:34):
He thinks everyone at this circus is in love with me.

(00:05:36):
Okay, now back in your seat, Roger.

(00:05:37):
Yeah, yeah, and that flip doctor, too.

(00:05:39):
Oh, be still.

(00:05:40):
I’m telling you something, honey girl.

(00:05:42):
One of these days,

(00:05:43):
I’m going to get absent-minded on that trapeze,

(00:05:46):
and I’m not going to catch you,

(00:05:47):
friend Tassinari.

(00:05:48):
How’s that, huh?

(00:05:49):
Don’t listen to him, Mr. Marlowe.

(00:05:50):
Well, then tell muscles to let go of my ear.

(00:05:53):
Yeah, perfect crime.

(00:05:56):
Who’d know it was an accident or not?

(00:05:58):
And then I’d own half a circus instead of just a third.

(00:06:02):
Please, Mr. Marlowe.

(00:06:02):
He’s drunk.

(00:06:03):
Yeah, but drunk or sober, you’ve got one doozy of an idea there.

(00:06:06):
Drunk or sober.

(00:06:07):
Hey, my wrist.

(00:06:08):
Watch that.

(00:06:14):
I knew some interns at Georgia Street Receiving Hospital who obliged with some oxygen and a mask.

(00:06:21):
A half hour of breathing that oxygen deeply in the Swede was stone cold sober and back in my car again.

(00:06:26):
He was making certain cagey explanations.

(00:06:31):
Uh, Marlowe, you don’t want to take that stuff I was mumbling about seriously, you know, I…

(00:06:37):
I was drunk.

(00:06:38):
You certainly were.

(00:06:39):
After all, Gloria Ann’s my wife.

(00:06:41):
Oh?

(00:06:42):
Naturally, I don’t like other guys giving her the eye.

(00:06:45):
But that screwy talk about me dropping Tassinari accidentally on purpose.

(00:06:49):
Oh, forget it.

(00:06:50):
Oh, no.

(00:06:51):
Yeah, the perfect crime.

(00:06:53):
I was only talking, Marlowe.

(00:06:55):
I wouldn’t do that to Tassinari.

(00:06:56):
Of course not.

(00:06:57):
He’d be all broken up about it, wouldn’t he?

(00:07:07):
I sat in a field box that evening at this small, neat circus unwound toward the big act.

(00:07:13):
And the big moment arrived with butterflies warming up in my stomach and a pulse

(00:07:19):
thumping madly in my neck.

(00:07:41):
on the high trapeze.

(00:07:46):
Ladies and gentlemen,

(00:07:49):
the living and justifying Passaneri and the Swede came bounding into the arena and

(00:08:00):
over to the two spidery ladders that zoomed up into the very peak of the big tent.

(00:08:04):
Up there where it was hot, high, and dangerous.

(00:08:07):
Two magnificently made men climbing that slim ladder.

(00:08:11):
Their brilliant capes flowing behind them, going up higher, smaller, higher.

(00:08:16):
And then… They were on their tiny platforms, removing their capes grandiosely.

(00:08:21):
And they turned, faced each other across the void like divers.

(00:08:25):
Not a voice, not a breath, not a sound.

(00:08:28):
I began to perspire.

(00:08:31):
The net was being gathered back…

(00:08:36):
Then suddenly,

(00:08:37):
Passaneri raised his right arm and smiled,

(00:08:40):
dropped his arm,

(00:08:41):
and the Swedes shot out into space like a comet,

(00:08:43):
and the gay,

(00:08:44):
waltzing,

(00:08:45):
somehow insane music began.

(00:08:47):
The End

(00:08:57):
It was all the announcer said, at least to me.

(00:08:59):
Daring and terrifying.

(00:09:01):
Whirl and spin and contact.

(00:09:04):
Swing, swing, swing and spin.

(00:09:08):
Spinning and whirling, contact and break.

(00:09:11):
Hands locked to rosined hands, contact and break.

(00:09:14):
Spin, whirl, cartwheel and contact.

(00:09:18):
Swing, swing, swing, and leap.

(00:09:22):
Split second timing and the split second split again,

(00:09:25):
with crappies bars flying into place where and when they were needed.

(00:09:28):
I left away my head drumming and swimming.

(00:09:32):
And I looked up again.

(00:09:33):
I looked up and the thing that had been tying my stomach in cold hard knots,

(00:09:37):
the thing I was afraid of,

(00:09:38):
happened.

(00:09:39):
Look out!

(00:09:49):
The music played a gay tune.

(00:09:51):
The clowns poured into the arena, grinning happily.

(00:09:54):
I saw the youngish, handsome doctor race across the sawdust, followed by Gloria.

(00:09:59):
Across the arena, I saw Al Sicanolfi get up and disappear into the crowd.

(00:10:04):
I went out, too.

(00:10:11):
Outside, I managed to get a shaking match to a quaking cigarette.

(00:10:17):
In my mind, I heard again and again the drunken voice of the flying Swede come back to me.

(00:10:23):
One of these days,

(00:10:24):
I’m going to get abso-minded on that trapeze,

(00:10:26):
and I’m not going to catch your friend,

(00:10:28):
Tassinari.

(00:10:29):
How’s that, huh?

(00:10:30):
Only it was all wrong.

(00:10:31):
It didn’t add up.

(00:10:33):
Because the body that had plummeted to the ground hadn’t been the body of Ralph Tassinari.

(00:10:38):
but of the man who had plotted the perfect crime, Gloriana’s husband, the flying Swede.

(00:10:51):
Mother.

(00:10:52):
What?

(00:10:52):
Oh.

(00:10:53):
Oh.

(00:10:56):
You were in there?

(00:10:57):
Yes, I saw it, Gloria.

(00:10:59):
I think I could kill Ralph for this.

(00:11:02):
You think Tassinari dropped your husband purposely?

(00:11:04):
What do you think?

(00:11:06):
Look, Lorraine, I took this job, you know why.

(00:11:10):
Well, all this reminded me of myself when I was a kid reading Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn and believing.

(00:11:15):
Well, I still believe in him.

(00:11:17):
I felt the same way about the circus.

(00:11:20):
The last childish illusions.

(00:11:21):
The man holds on to you so he doesn’t get too hard.

(00:11:24):
You’re not tough at all, are you?

(00:11:27):
I was going to like this job, and then this happened.

(00:11:31):
Do you know what I’m talking about?

(00:11:33):
Yes, sir.

(00:11:34):
I’m sorry we failed.

(00:11:38):
Look, Lorraine, the Swede is dead and you think Tassinari killed him, but it’s the perfect crime.

(00:11:42):
You can’t prove anything.

(00:11:44):
Look,

(00:11:44):
maybe I didn’t love the Swede very much,

(00:11:46):
but he was my husband and on the square…

(00:11:48):
Did you love Tassinari?

(00:11:49):
If I did, it’s all over now.

(00:11:51):
I’m going to prove to everybody in circus business at least that he killed my husband.

(00:11:54):
Yeah, well, how?

(00:11:56):
You’ll see, little boy.

(00:11:57):
Good night.

(00:11:59):
Good night.

(00:12:06):
I watched her go back into the big tent,

(00:12:09):
and then I drove home and dreamed all night of Al Saganolfi smiling his yellow

(00:12:13):
smile and disappearing into the crowd.

(00:12:17):
I got up late and went down for coffee in a newspaper.

(00:12:20):
The story was there on page one.

(00:12:22):
Also,

(00:12:23):
a silky,

(00:12:23):
leggy picture of Gloriana beneath it,

(00:12:25):
the caption reading,

(00:12:27):
Show must go on,

(00:12:28):
dares high trapeze in the passenary after mate falls to death.

(00:12:33):
I looked at my watch.

(00:12:33):
It was late, later than I thought.

(00:12:36):
For the daring young dame on the flying trapeze, it was almost too late.

(00:12:50):
You are listening to The Adventures of Philip Marlowe, starring Van Heflin.

(00:12:55):
Yes, families all over America have named their favorite toothpaste.

(00:12:58):
New Pepsodent with invigorating irium foam.

(00:13:02):
New, fresh-tasting Pepsodent with the new, cool, minty flavors.

(00:13:06):
It’s the three-to-one favorite over all other toothpastes in recent home tests.

(00:13:11):
So why not have your family try New Peptidon, the only toothpaste containing irium?

(00:13:17):
Get it without delay.

(00:13:26):
We continue with the adventures of Philip Marlowe,

(00:13:28):
created by Raymond Chandler and starring Van Heflin,

(00:13:31):
who appears by arrangement with Metro-Golden-Mare.

(00:13:34):
Producers of The Hucksters, starring Clark Gable.

But first, let me remind you that the podcast offers membership benefits on Patreon.

Check out Patreon today. After you buy your toothpaste.

(00:13:47):
The Lion Act was going on when I arrived at the circus grounds and practically ran to Gloria Ann’s tent.

(00:13:53):
She was in her tights and cloak ready to go on.

(00:13:56):
Look, Gloria Ann, you’re kidding.

(00:13:58):
This is a gag.

(00:13:59):
You’re not going up there.

(00:14:00):
One minute, little boy.

(00:14:01):
Well, you’re out of your mind.

(00:14:02):
I’m going up with Pastor Nari to prove you to killed a thief.

(00:14:05):
You add that up.

(00:14:06):
My arms are full of bundles.

(00:14:07):
Pastor Nari agreed to go up with me.

(00:14:10):
Why?

(00:14:11):
Why aren’t his nerves shattered after yesterday?

(00:14:13):
Because he knows he didn’t make a mistake yesterday.

(00:14:16):
He knows he dropped my husband purposely.

(00:14:17):
And not because his timing or reactions were wrong.

(00:14:20):
Do I make sense?

(00:14:22):
Up to a point.

(00:14:23):
You’re thinking he may drop me.

(00:14:25):
And I wouldn’t like that.

(00:14:27):
He won’t drop me.

(00:14:28):
What makes you so sure?

(00:14:29):
Because Tosinari loves me.

(00:14:32):
He wants me.

(00:14:33):
Does that make sense?

(00:14:35):
Yeah.

(00:14:36):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

(00:14:39):
Well, go to it, little girl.

(00:14:50):
I watched Glorianne so small and slim and fragile as she went up that thin ladder.

(00:14:55):
My throat swelled tight and the butterflies took off in my stomach again.

(00:15:02):
She was on the platform, removing her silk cape, folding it carefully over the rail.

(00:15:06):
They were facing each other, smiling.

(00:15:09):
Smiling.

(00:15:11):
Dead, sultry silence.

(00:15:13):
Then…

(00:15:25):
For minutes, I sat there, petrified, watching her cold sweat channel down my back.

(00:15:32):
For ten minutes, I stopped breathing.

(00:15:34):
I died.

(00:15:36):
Once, only once, I had to close my eyes.

(00:15:38):
And in that second, I heard the crowd roar.

(00:15:46):
Everyone was standing up, screaming and goggle-eyed.

(00:15:49):
I groped to my feet, and there she was.

(00:15:53):
Bowing and laughing and throwing kisses into the crowd and at Tassinari and at me.

(00:15:58):
Then she pirouetted and ran up the ramp to her dressing tent.

(00:16:05):
I got there with Tassinari.

(00:16:06):
Her eyes warmed for me and then froze again for Tassinari.

(00:16:11):
Come in, little boy.

(00:16:12):
And you, Tassinari.

(00:16:15):
Tassinari?

(00:16:16):
Ralph also is a name I bear.

(00:16:18):
Today I talk to Tassinari.

(00:16:20):
Now I want Mr. Moller to hear what I have to say to you.

(00:16:23):
Which is first that I’m through with you.

(00:16:25):
Corianne, not because of the accident.

(00:16:28):
Yes, but because it was not an accident.

(00:16:32):
You don’t believe that?

(00:16:33):
May I suggest that maybe Al Sicanolfi has a meaty part in this picture?

(00:16:37):
No.

(00:16:38):
Hasanari here killed a Swede.

(00:16:40):
Corianne, that’s not true.

(00:16:41):
Dr. Stowe seems to think as I do.

(00:16:44):
Ah, yes, Dr. Stowe.

(00:16:46):
I did pass your tent last night after the accident.

(00:16:49):
Accident?

(00:16:50):
I heard you and the kaffite unsuccessful doctor speaking together, oh, so intimately.

(00:16:55):
Bear your insult, Hasanari.

(00:16:57):
Speaking together, deciding conveniently, perhaps, that I’d kill a Swede.

(00:17:02):
Richard never accused you.

(00:17:03):
He only said that… Oh, he’s the one, eh?

(00:17:05):
Richard.

(00:17:07):
Get out.

(00:17:07):
If I wanted to murder a man, it would be easy to take my gun from my trunk and shoot him.

(00:17:12):
Yeah, but that wouldn’t be the perfect crime.

(00:17:14):
Why should I want to kill the Swede?

(00:17:16):
Because he might have sold you out to pay his debts.

(00:17:20):
Because you’d get half of his share of the circus.

(00:17:24):
Because you were in love with his wife.

(00:17:28):
I see.

(00:17:31):
You think you have a case, huh?

(00:17:33):
I hope not.

(00:17:34):
Florianne knows what I mean.

(00:17:35):
Only perhaps Tosinaya better go now.

(00:17:38):
Yeah.

(00:17:40):
Yeah.

(00:17:42):
I’m very sorry, Florianne.

(00:17:45):
For all of us.

(00:17:48):
Good day.

(00:17:50):
Good day, Miss Tamaro.

(00:17:57):
He padded out softly like a panther, resentment and hatred smoldering in his eyes.

(00:18:03):
That was horrible, little boy.

(00:18:07):
I’d better lie down now.

(00:18:09):
I left wondering if there’d be a show that night, tradition or no tradition.

(00:18:14):
I walked for a half an hour and then a police squad car came screaming down

(00:18:18):
Washington Boulevard toward the circus grounds.

(00:18:21):
Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the noonday sun, but Marlowe runs in it.

(00:18:30):
I found a small colony of cops in one of the dressing tents.

(00:18:34):
The man on the cot.

(00:18:35):
had taken a lot of pulses in his time, but he didn’t have a single one to show for it, not even his own.

(00:18:42):
Good-looking, youngish Dr. Richard W. Stowe was dead.

(00:18:46):
Detective Lieutenant Ibera held out a small automatic to me.

(00:18:49):
Hello, Marlowe.

(00:18:51):
I hear you’ve been masterminding things around here lately.

(00:18:55):
Ever see this gun before?

(00:18:56):
I may have heard of it.

(00:18:58):
A man named Ralph Tassinari, connected with his show, has disappeared.

(00:19:03):
Know something about that?

(00:19:04):
He was fresh from a lover’s quarrel last I saw him.

(00:19:07):
Ah?

(00:19:08):
Well, maybe just out walking it off.

(00:19:11):
Possibly.

(00:19:12):
But the dead doctor and Tassinari both went for a pretty little trapeze queen named Gloria Ann.

(00:19:17):
Was anything stolen here?

(00:19:19):
No.

(00:19:20):
The circus hand who heard the muffled shot came running before anything could have been taken.

(00:19:24):
Well, the gal, Gloria Ann, how does she feel about this?

(00:19:28):
She’s in her tent, heavily committed to a case of hysterics.

(00:19:33):
Uh, Marlowe, divvy’s on any information you get out of her.

(00:19:45):
Look, Laurie Ann, you can’t go on like this.

(00:19:47):
Now let me get something for you.

(00:19:50):
I’ll be all right.

(00:19:51):
Just to set it, to settle your nerves.

(00:19:54):
Oh, no, we never take that thing.

(00:19:56):
It’s bad for going up on a trap.

(00:19:59):
No.

(00:20:00):
No, I’ll sleep.

(00:20:02):
That’s the best thing.

(00:20:04):
Sleep.

(00:20:06):
You can’t go up there tonight.

(00:20:07):
Anyway, Tassinari’s missing.

(00:20:10):
I’ll go see what I can find for you.

(00:20:21):
I rummaged through Dr. Stowe’s medical bag while Ibera watched from across the tent

(00:20:26):
I found a small black book.

(00:20:28):
I leafed through it with my hand still hidden in the bag.

(00:20:32):
It was a small case history book with sketchy data about his cases,

(00:20:37):
the treatment given,

(00:20:38):
the medication prescribed.

(00:20:41):
I very quietly tore out the last page,

(00:20:44):
palmed it,

(00:20:44):
and slipped it in my pocket as I creaked to an approximate upright position.

(00:20:48):
Find anything to quiet the little woman, Myron?

(00:20:51):
No, not a thing, Lieutenant, not a thing.

(00:20:54):
I’ll try a drugstore.

(00:21:02):
Tablets of cyclodome, grains one and a half.

(00:21:06):
One tablet with warm water for nerves or sleep.

(00:21:09):
What is it?

(00:21:10):
It’s a common sedative, but I can’t sell you any without a prescription.

(00:21:15):
Well, can you tell me anything about those drugs?

(00:21:17):
Some, but you will find a lot more in Dr. Toral Solman’s textbook on pharmacology.

(00:21:23):
Textbook on pharmacology.

(00:21:25):
It’s only in the main library, I think, but it’s complete.

(00:21:28):
That’ll tell you all you want to know, I’m sure.

(00:21:39):
The druggist was right.

(00:21:40):
The textbook of pharmacology told me all I wanted to know.

(00:21:43):
Also, this was a very limited edition.

(00:21:48):
It was probably the only one of its kind that had on the page devoted to cyclodrome

(00:21:54):
a smudge of lipstick in the shape of a woman’s finger.

(00:22:08):
It was all and more than I wanted to know.

(00:22:11):
And all at once, I was old.

(00:22:14):
Very old.

(00:22:16):
From now on, I was going to leave illusions to high school girls and magicians.

(00:22:24):
Hello, little boy.

(00:22:28):
Back again.

(00:22:29):
I see you’re dressed for work, Lorianne.

(00:22:31):
Has the night returned?

(00:22:33):
I wouldn’t know.

(00:22:35):
But I think I do know who killed the Swede.

(00:22:37):
Tassinari.

(00:22:38):
I gravely doubt that.

(00:22:39):
Well, then who?

(00:22:41):
Not Alfred and Alfie.

(00:22:43):
Glorian,

(00:22:44):
you’re a dainty little thing,

(00:22:45):
and that’s a particular reason why you should break yourself of little unsightly habits,

(00:22:51):
like touching your fingers to your mouth to turn back pages in books.

(00:22:57):
Are you all right, little boy?

(00:22:59):
Was the Swede all right when he went up with Tassinari last night?

(00:23:04):
Or was he just slightly under the influence of a sedative drug that calms the nerves?

(00:23:08):
Yes, but slows up their reaction time.

(00:23:12):
I don’t understand such matters.

(00:23:14):
You admitted to me today that it isn’t wise to take such sedatives before your act.

(00:23:19):
But you did get a prescription for such tablets from Dr. Stowe and you said nothing about them.

(00:23:23):
Well, I was upset after the Swede was killed.

(00:23:25):
I needed something.

(00:23:26):
But according to Dr. Stowe’s case book, you got the tablets before the Swede was killed.

(00:23:31):
And you left him at the bar for an hour yesterday while you did a little medical

(00:23:35):
research at the main library.

(00:23:37):
And that night, the Swede split second time.

(00:23:40):
He didn’t quite split, did he?

(00:23:43):
Of course you weren’t afraid to go up with Tassinari today.

(00:23:48):
He didn’t miss the Swede.

(00:23:49):
The Swede missed him.

(00:23:50):
I hated him.

(00:23:54):
You didn’t want him.

(00:23:56):
You just wanted the circus, all of it.

(00:23:58):
So you killed the Swede with his own perfect crime.

(00:24:01):
Only it was too perfect.

(00:24:03):
You couldn’t pin the murder on Tassinari.

(00:24:06):
You had to think of something more down to earth.

(00:24:10):
Go on, little boy.

(00:24:11):
Make Gloria Ann proud of you.

(00:24:14):
Dr. Stowe knew that you hated your husband.

(00:24:17):
He knew that you had those tablets.

(00:24:18):
He knew that the Swede didn’t make mistakes.

(00:24:22):
Last night when Tassinari heard you and Stowe whispering together,

(00:24:25):
Stowe was telling you what he suspected,

(00:24:27):
wasn’t he?

(00:24:28):
He was a doctor and he is furious at the thought of being used in a murder.

(00:24:31):
You’re raising your voice.

(00:24:33):
You look certain.

(00:24:33):
No.

(00:24:35):
Well, if you didn’t shut up the doctor, he’d talk.

(00:24:37):
So you shot him with Tassinari’s gun after staging a very nice row with Tassinari in front of me.

(00:24:43):
That would pin it on Tassinari.

(00:24:46):
You let Stowe take you in his arms to muffle the shop.

(00:24:50):
That was particularly pretty.

(00:24:53):
No, little boy.

(00:24:54):
It was not.

(00:24:56):
No, it was not.

(00:24:59):
Little boy, you’ve had a busy day.

(00:25:04):
Well, it’s time that I grew up anyway.

(00:25:07):
That’s for my act.

(00:25:08):
Ladies and gentlemen, Captain Harry and Gloria.

(00:25:16):
And Gloria.

(00:25:17):
And Gloria.

(00:25:18):
I’ve sent for the police, Gloria, and they’ll be here pretty soon.

(00:25:21):
Little boy!

(00:25:22):
Asanay is there.

(00:25:24):
He’s waiting in the runway across the arena.

(00:25:26):
He came back!

(00:25:27):
He doesn’t even know he’s wanted, probably.

(00:25:29):
Oh, little boy, I have let you down.

(00:25:32):
Let me make it up a little.

(00:25:34):
Let me go out there.

(00:25:35):
Will you come down again?

(00:25:37):
Yes, of course.

(00:25:38):
By the ladder, I mean.

(00:25:39):
I won’t let you down again, little boy.

(00:25:41):
I promise it.

(00:25:42):
We circus people won’t disappoint you again.

(00:25:45):
Please.

(00:25:46):
They’re waiting.

(00:25:48):
Well, the show must go on, mustn’t it?

(00:25:51):
All right, go ahead, lady.

(00:25:52):
They’re waiting.

(00:25:56):
She ran out laughing, throwing kisses, and I walked out after her.

(00:26:01):
Stood in the runway watching.

(00:26:02):
I watched the small, delicate figure going up the ladder.

(00:26:06):
Then she was at the platform.

(00:26:08):
Rosin on shoes, rosin on the hands and wrists.

(00:26:12):
And sultry silence, not a voice.

(00:26:20):
raising her hand in a gesture of exquisite grace and sureness and smiling and pessimism.

(00:26:26):
Smiling.

(00:26:28):
And there it was.

(00:26:29):
This was it.

(00:26:31):
There.

(00:26:41):
Ghostly packs of small fry from my school days gaped up with me and shivered with kid delight.

(00:26:48):
I was a kid again, walking up at the circus guy and the circus lady.

(00:26:53):
The daring young dame on the flying trapeze, Passaneri and Glorianne.

(00:26:58):
Or positively, the last performance anywhere on earth.

(00:27:13):
You have just heard Van Heflin starring in the new mystery series,

(00:27:17):
Raymond Chandler’s The Adventures of Philip Marlowe,

(00:27:19):
brought to you by the Lever Brothers Company,

(00:27:21):
makers of Pepsodent.

(00:27:23):
Van Heflin will return in just a moment.

(00:27:26):
Now, here is Van Heflin, star of The Adventures of Philip Marlowe.

(00:27:29):
King Leopardi had the hottest trumpet and the coldest eye in show business,

(00:27:35):
and he loved yellow silk,

(00:27:36):
so they called him the King in Yellow.

(00:27:39):
We consider his short,

(00:27:40):
eventful life next week when,

(00:27:42):
as Philip Marlowe,

(00:27:43):
I have some business with the King in Yellow.

(00:27:51):
Tonight’s story was written by Milton Geiger,

(00:27:53):
based on the character of Philip Marlowe,

(00:27:55):
the screen’s most famous private detective,

(00:27:57):
created by Raymond Chandler.

(00:27:59):
Heard with Van Heflin tonight as Glory Ann was Lorene Tuttle.

(00:28:03):
The original music was composed and conducted by Lynn Murray.

(00:28:06):
This is Wendell Niles inviting you to listen again next week at this same time to

(00:28:10):
another exciting mystery on The Adventures of Philip Marlowe,

(00:28:13):
starring Van Heflin with a distinguished cast.

(00:28:17):
This is NBC, the national broadcasting company.

If you made it this far, you must be a fan! 🙂

View Details

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Tom Fowler.

Check out our discussion of his Baltimore-based crime fiction.

Click here for a PDF copy of the transcript.

Debbi (00:55): Hi everyone. My guest today is the USA Today bestselling indie author of the John Tyler thrillers and the CT Ferguson crime fiction series. Born in Baltimore, he now lives in the Maryland suburbs of DC, a place that I know well, or at least I used to know it well. It’s my pleasure to have with me Tom Fowler. Hey, Tom. How are you doing today?

Tom (01:21): Good, Debbi. Thanks for having me on.

Debbi (01:23): Excellent. My pleasure. I was particularly intrigued by the fact that you are writing hardboiled mysteries that take place in Baltimore. You’re originally from Baltimore and you’ve also written a whole lot of those books. How many books do you have in the CT Ferguson series?

Tom (01:44): Sixteen currently. Just put up the pre-order for number 17. My hope is to have it out a little before Christmas.

Debbi (01:56): Well, I got to tell you, I love a hardboiled mystery, and I love the idea of the setting in Baltimore. How many books do you plan to write for the series? What’s your plan for the series in general?

Tom (02:09): Yeah, I don’t have any plan to end it. I think it’s common in the genre to have these kind of open-ended series, and we look at the Spencer series. Robert B. Parker wrote 40 or 41 before he died, and there’s been another 11 or 12, I think since his passing. Ace Atkins wrote the first nine or 10, and now Mike Lupica has taken over. So Jack Reacher was more of a thriller character, I would say, than mystery, but that’s a 27 or 28. And again, there’s an author transition happening there too. So I think it’s very common to see these series just keep going, and as long as people are interested in reading them, I’m certainly interested in writing them. I have a lot of fun with these books.

Debbi (02:56): That’s cool. I’ve noticed they tend to be on the short side. Is that intentional? Is it just the way you write?

Tom (03:04): I guess it’s just the way I write. They’re usually 70 to 75,000 words. The more recent ones have been closer to 70, so I’d say most mysteries are probably somewhere in the 75 to 80 range. So I hope I’m not writing too short, but it’s the right length for the story. I don’t want to pad the word count unnecessarily. They’re first-person stories, so there’s not a lot of side quests, if you will, happening that the other characters are going on, so.

Debbi (03:34): Exactly. Yeah, and personally, I like short reads, so I mean, that just really appeals to me.

Tom (03:41): Yeah.

Debbi (03:44): What prompted you to write that series?

Tom (03:49): A few things. I’ve mentioned before, I think I have a longer bio that mentions I wrote a “murder mystery” (in air quotes for those who can’t see me) when I was about seven years old in which no one actually died, so no murder. And I named the, I guess I can’t really call him the killer, but the person who stabbed people, the stabber, like in the first paragraph. So not a mystery either. Oh for two, but it’s because I was at my grandparents’ house a lot, and they would watch shows like The Rockford Files. This was probably the early eighties, and they were probably in syndication by then, but Columbo, shows like that where you had a cop or a PI, someone solving a mystery, and I’ve read a lot of different genres over the years, but I wanted to, at some point in the late two thousands to 2010, I wanted to write my own, and I really started writing that book.

(04:52): I know I had a finished draft of the first book, The Reluctant Detective, around November, December of 2010. I wouldn’t publish it until October of 2017. So the process took me about seven years, but I wanted to do, I like the crime genre a lot. I was big into shows like Monk and Psych and things like that at the time, but I didn’t want to do the photographic memory. I felt like that was overdone. So I had to put my own spin on it a little bit, but I really wanted to write something in that space because I’ve been a fan of it, even going back to my childhood watching those shows at my grandparents’ house.

Debbi (05:27): Absolutely. Yeah, those shows are great too. I loved The Rockford Files. Oh my gosh, he was just perfect. I also noticed that you have a protagonist in John Tyler thrillers who’s a military veteran. What inspired you to write that character?

Tom (05:47): Well, I’ve never been to the military myself, but I’ve worked for the Army and the DOD as a civilian for–I’m not in that space anymore, but I was there for about 16 years or so. So I met a lot of people who were in the military, and I wanted to do a different series, and I wanted to do more of a thriller style, like a military action thriller, and obviously the 800 pound gorilla in that space is Jack Reacher. So to be clear, I very much enjoy the Jack Reacher books. I’m not trying to bag on Jack Reacher, but I wanted to do something a little bit different than Jack Reacher. So I still wanted someone who’s been in the service and seen and done his share, but a different character in a lot of ways, I think. And in the series, Tyler has PTSD and lives with it and manages it. He has a teenage daughter who lives with him. As the series opens, she later goes to college. So there are a lot of differences, I think, between a character like Reacher or the more loner types that you normally see in this genre. But I wanted to ground him a little bit differently and tells stories. A character like Reacher, he rolls into a town, raises hell, shoots people and leaves, and he’s pretty much the same guy in the next book, and that’s fun. But I wanted someone who has been affected by what he’s done and continues to be affected by the things he does.

Debbi (07:12): Yeah, I hear that. Actually. I write about a female Marine veteran who also has PTSD and an opioid addiction.

Tom (07:21): Oh, wow.

Debbi (07:22): Who is trying to function as a private eye essentially. So that’s an interesting thing to deal with.

Tom (07:29): I read about something for people with traumatic brain injuries. It was like a therapeutic painting program,

(07:35): And I talked to someone I know who’s a psychologist, and I said, could something like this be adapted for people who were trying to manage PTSD? And she said, yes. So in the books, Tyler has this painting program that he does. He has watercolors and he has an easel, and he just gets these things out of his head. And interestingly, one of my readers teaches art and teaches watercolors. So he actually gave me some advice about these are the kinds of things he should buy, and this is how someone who’s not an artist, because Tyler certainly wouldn’t be an artist, this is how someone who’s an amateur would do a painting and they would do this part first and then this. So I think my descriptions of him sitting at the easel and doing his painting has gotten a little more accurate over time just because someone who reads my books happens to have that experience and said, Hey, you can have him do it this way.

Debbi (08:31): Wow, that’s really interesting. I like the idea of the art therapy as something to use to manage traumatic brain injury. Fascinating. So how largely does Baltimore as a setting figure in your stories?

Tom (08:51): Pretty prominently. Most of the stories, I mean, they all take place, at least partially there. Some of them are entirely contained in the city, but there’s also some stories that go into the county or other parts of the state. A couple of the Tyler books actually, some of the action takes place in nearby states, but they always usually start and end In Baltimore, which is my city. It’s the city I know. It’s the city I love. I know it doesn’t always have the best reputation, but it’s more than just The Wire, and it’s more than just what you see on the news.

Debbi (09:25): Exactly.

Tom (09:26): Yeah, it really is. It’s a great city, and I want it to feature in there. And yeah, I’m writing crime stories, so yes, people are dying in Baltimore and these stories. People die in every city, every day around the world. But I really want it to feature in there, and I get emails from people, not just people who lived in Baltimore, but someone who says, oh, I came to Baltimore for a conference 10 years ago, and we ate at the restaurant, and you wrote about it in your book, and just little things like that. So when you ground your series in any real city, even Baltimore in this case, you’re going to have people who know the landmarks, who have driven on those streets and who have been in neighborhoods, and it creates a real setting for people.

Debbi (10:10): Yeah, definitely. So you’re an indie author like myself. What has your experience been like as an indie author and was it what you expected?

Tom (10:22): No, it was not. It’s a lot more than what I expected, and I love it, don’t get me wrong, but there are days it really feels like a second job. There are days, it feels like a tied for first job maybe. I really kind of envisioned it as, okay, I’m going to write these books. I’m going to put them up there. And yeah, I wasn’t expecting to get rich or anything, and I haven’t gotten rich from writing books, but man, there’s a lot that goes on. You have to get your books in front of people, so you have to have an email list and oh, now you need to be on social media, and here’s these Amazon ads and Facebook ads and things like that. It’s like, man, I want to write. I don’t want to do all this stuff. And I think a lot of people are in that boat.

(11:11): We get into this, I think, because we’re creatives and we want to write and we have stories, and then the businessy aspects of it is where we kind of throw up our hands a little bit, and I’ve certainly done that in some areas. But yeah, I try to carve out time before the workday. After the workday, on the weekends at lunch. I don’t do my writing work during, I have a day job. I don’t write during my day job. That’s my day job hours, but before and after on the weekends, things like that, that’s when I carve out my time. But yeah, it’s great. I love it. I wouldn’t trade it, but it is more than I thought I was signing up for. Absolutely.

Debbi (11:53): I think the technology has made it so, as well as the proliferation of social media, and I’m not sure that social media is nearly as important as a lot of people think it is.

Tom (12:06): I think if you have to pick social media or doing an email list, a hundred percent always, pick email.

Debbi (12:13): Absolutely. And I think you have to be careful about which social media you decide to use too, because some just seem to lend themselves to people better than others. I hear it all the time. Use something that you’re comfortable with as opposed to trying to wrap your mind around every single one out there.

Tom (12:33): Right. The advice I used to hear, I know Mark Dawson mentioned this at some point, but I don’t know if he’s the originator of the advice, but it was always for social media platforms, pick two, and one of them should be Facebook simply because you can run Facebook ads. That’s probably still true, but you should also go where your audience is. Not everybody’s audience is on Facebook.

Debbi (12:54): Absolutely. I agree. Totally. So what kind of marketing do you do and how much of it?

Tom (13:06): As little as possible.

Debbi (13:07): I know the feeling,

Tom (13:11): Yeah. I do have a Facebook ad, two Facebook ads that run one to The Mechanic, which is the first Tyler book, and one to a box set on my direct store, my Shopify store. There’s another aspect of indie authoring that I didn’t think I would have to get involved in, selling my books directly. I have an Amazon ad. It’s a defensive ad, I guess, targeting me and my books, and that’s really, in terms of advertising, that’s all I do, and that doesn’t work out to be a great amount of money. Every month I have a newsletter that I send every two weeks. I do things like BookBub, FreeBooksy, those kind of newsletter promos. Periodically. I am on social media, but I don’t talk about my books a ton. I feel like all those “buy my book” posters, most of ’em are very tacky, and I don’t want to do that.

Debbi (14:04): Yeah, they are

Tom (14:05): I want to engage with people and not just hit them over the head with a book. I don’t think that’s the point of it. So that’s really what I do. I think most, unless you’re doing a ton of marketing, you can probably do most of this in an hour or two a week.

Debbi (14:25): I think you’re right. Frankly,

Tom (14:27): Maybe a little more on the weeks I write a newsletter. That always takes a little bit of time, but for the most part, I think a lot of it can be an hour or two a week. And if I were starting over, I think I would only send my newsletter once a month instead of every two weeks. But now I’m locked into that cadence and I’ve told people this is how often I’m going to send. So that’s what I do. But if I were starting over, it would probably be once a month. Yeah,

Debbi (14:46): I was going to say, you’re allowed to change your mind as long as you tell your readers. Sure. Let’s see. Do you do book signings? Just out of curiosity?

Tom (14:57): I haven’t yet. I was going to start doing them, and then Covid happened and people weren’t going to bookstores and all that. That’s something I’d like to start doing. I did one in 2019, I did a talk at a library in, oh God, Charles County, I think, and sold some books and did a signing afterwards. That’s something I’d like to get more into. There’s a lot of bookstores near me. There’s a few Barnes and Nobles. There’s some independent bookstores that are in the area or within, say, an hour’s drive because Columbia, Baltimore, DC, all those places are within an hour’s drive for me. So there’s a lot of possibilities there. So that’s something I’d like to start doing, but I haven’t done a lot of yet.

Debbi (15:41): Yeah, I’ve done a couple since the pandemic, or actually I’ve done one since the Pandemic, and I did one right before the Pandemic, and it’s like, I feel like I should do more. I feel like I should be out there more just meeting people. Have you ever considered crowdfunding your books?

Tom (16:04): I have, and I’ve done two Kickstarters so far. For me, they’re more, I don’t know that I would do. I wouldn’t do one all the time for every release. I think that’s too much. I think they’re more for special, more special projects, but it’s certainly a viable way to release a book. The one caveat I would offer, the first one I ran, I tried to do it specifically for an audiobook, and there’s a large segment of people out there who just do not care about audiobooks. It is a growing market, but more people read either eBooks or physical books than read audiobooks. So if you’re going to do a Kickstarter and you’re trying to fund an audiobook, that’s fine. Just don’t say, this is from my audiobook. You’re immediately going to turn off 80% of the people who might be interested in it. Offer audiobook as a reward certainly, but also make sure you have ebook, print, other stuff in there.

(17:05): There’s a few books out there on how to set up a Kickstarter. I think Monica Leonelle and Russell P. Nohelty have the best one I’ve seen so far. I think it’s called Get Your Book Selling on Kickstarter. Has some really good advice in there. That’s what I’ve used. So my first campaign was audiobook centric and did not fund. My second one did. I have not yet run a third. I haven’t found the right project yet. I don’t want to do it just like, oh, here’s thriller number eight. Let’s do a Kickstarter. It doesn’t seem special enough to me. That’s just a normal release, but if I had something different or something special I was putting out, I would absolutely do it again.

Debbi (17:42): Yeah, it’s not a bad thing to do. If nothing else, you can get people on board with what it is you’re writing, the kind of thing you write. It’s like you attract the right people to yourself by doing that, I think.

Tom (18:01): Yes.

Debbi (18:03): And have you, just out of curiosity, thought of using either Substack or Patreon?

Tom (18:09): I’ve thought about it. It’s a function of time more than anything. Do I think I could reach people on those platforms? Yeah. They’re not really discovery platforms though, so I think you kind of have to bring an audience with you or send people to those places. And for what I would be providing there is the time outlay worth it. I don’t know. There are people who absolutely do well on substack, Patreon, other subscription based platforms. It is a second job for me. I don’t need it to be a first. I don’t want it to be my first job. So a lot of that is a function of, I don’t know if I have the time to do this or to do it really the way I would want to do it.

Debbi (19:01): Yeah. So what is your profession, your day job?

Tom (19:07): Yeah. I work in IT for the federal government.

Debbi (19:11): Ah, which agency?

Tom (19:13): FDA.

Debbi (19:16): Oh, my goodness. I’m a former Fed myself. Used to work with the EPA for a while.

Tom (19:22): Oh, nice.

Debbi (19:23): Yeah, it was a living, I suppose. Which is more than I can say for my writing career at this point. What advice would you give to anyone who is interested in a writing career?

Tom (19:37): Oh boy. There’s probably a lot of things that I could say there. I think the biggest one would be to know why you want to do it or what you want to get out of it. You might want to, maybe you’re a hobbyist who just wants to put up the book you’ve had in your head for 20 years, or your poetry collection or whatever, or your grandmother’s life story is particularly inspiring and you want to write about that and get it in the hands of family and friends, and you don’t really care if anybody else reads it or maybe you want to do this full time. Those are very different goals. They’re all very fine goals in and of themselves, but they’re very different. And the amount of time and other resources you may have to commit to them is going to vary wildly. So know why you want to do it and have those expectations set accordingly.

Debbi (20:34): That is very, very good advice, knowing your why are you doing this?

Tom (20:40): Yes.

Debbi (20:41): Because a lot of people don’t care if they make a bestseller list or even make a living off their writing. They want to get published, they want to express themselves, whatever.

Tom (20:56): Yeah.

Debbi (20:56): I think sometimes we lose that joy of getting what you want to say out there or in service to something else. We’re so worried about making money from it that we can’t think about the joy of doing it as much. So what I really like to focus on is the joy of doing it.

Tom (21:19): Yeah.

Debbi (21:19): It’s very important.

Tom (21:20): If you don’t enjoy it, then you’re doing wrong. If you’re not enjoying this.

Debbi (21:23): Yeah. I mean, there’s so much involved. There’s so much work involved. Why would you do it unless you enjoyed it?

Tom (21:30): Right.

Debbi (21:30): So yeah.

Tom (21:32): The only piece of advice I would definitely have, and this is more of a avoiding scams thing, is money should always flow to the author. If you were traditionally published, that will come in the form of either an advance or some royalties that your publisher sends you. If you are self-published, you collect the money from Amazon, Kobo, whoever, do not pay anyone to publish your book.

Debbi (21:57): Thank you for saying that, because too often I hear about people paying to get published, too often. It amazes me because you are the owner of this intellectual property and you are licensing it to a publisher or to whoever, whether Amazon or whatever platform you’re putting it up on. It’s a license for them to distribute it. So don’t pay to get published, period. Do not. Well, thank you so much for being here and telling us about your books and about your writing and the fact that you’re doing this while working is to me, amazing. So many books too. So you must write really fast.

Tom (22:43): Yeah. The first one took me over seven years to go from starting it to getting it published, made a few process improvements, I guess you could say in the time since. But now I can pretty much turn around a first draft in six or seven weeks-ish, and I send to my editor in chunks and he sends them back to me. So at first, I would just send him the whole book when I was done, and it would take him several weeks to get it back to me. But now I just send six chapters, six chapters, whatever, and this way he finishes a week after I do, and things are ready to go much faster.

Debbi (23:22): Wow. That’s a nice arrangement. Well, again, thanks for being here. I really appreciate it and absolutely stick around afterward, we’ll do a bonus episode together.

Tom (23:34): Sure. Thanks for having me.

Debbi (23:35): Sure thing. It was my pleasure. I would like to thank everyone also for listening, and if you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review and check us out on Patreon where you can get access to bonus episodes as well as chapters from my work that I post there. Next time, my guest will be Pablo Trincia. I believe that’s how it’s pronounced. He’s the author of All the Lies They Did Not Tell, which is quite a story about a big scandal in Italy. Until then, take care and happy reading.

Check us out on Patreon!

View Details

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Catherine Rymsha.

Check out our discussion about leadership skills and crime fiction writing.

You can download a PDF of the transcript here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today has a career in workplace communication and management. She teaches leadership skills and has a nonfiction book called The Leadership Decision which she published before her crime novel. Her crime novel is Stunning. It’s calledStunning, and in addition, she has given a TED Talk on the importance of listening, so listen up. You might learn something. It’s my great pleasure to have with me today, Catherine Rymsha. I hope I’m pronouncing that correctly.

Catherine: You are. Thank you. Yes, you are.

Debbi: Excellent. Wonderful.

Catherine: So happy to be here.

Debbi: I was going to ask you about that, and I’d completely forgotten, in the big hubbub of trying to get connected.

Catherine: That’s fine.

Debbi: You wouldn’t believe, people. Anyway, thank you so much for being here. What is it that made you decide to write a novel, and a mystery at that?

Catherine: I love murders.

Debbi: Who doesn’t?

Catherine: It’s so odd saying that, but I’m talking to an audience who understands that. I love crime, I love murder. Even as a kid, I was reading like the Fear Street books and R.L. Stein and Goosebumps, and then ventured into Stephen King and then started to watch everything on ID, and 20/20 and Dateline, and all of those shows that dig into it. When I was a kid, I always wanted to write and I fell into leadership and wrote a ton about leadership, which for some, that’s not the most thrilling topic in the world, which I understand totally. But then, I was pregnant when I wrote Stunning. It was a dream. It was based on a dream that I had, and I kept having the dream, and I thought maybe I should write this down and I just started writing. I would write before bed and just write, write, write when I had time and I wasn’t sleeping or working a real job, and that’s how it came about. It just felt like it needed to get out of my brain.

Even as a kid, I was reading like the Fear Street books and R.L. Stein and Goosebumps, and then ventured into Stephen King and then started to watch everything on ID, and 20/20 and Dateline, and all of those shows that dig into it.

Debbi: Interesting. So do you picture writing more books, or is this like your one shot ?

Catherine: I just came out with a textbook, also not as thrilling, very academic, but I want to get back into writing murder and crime and even if I could do something based on real life murder or crime. I think those are things that are interesting to me to explore next. But I do want to start getting into it and I keep saying that, and I thought all summer I’ll write another book. And now summer has come and gone and the book is not written. So I’m thinking, well, maybe in the fall. I say that and I laugh because I don’t know if it’s going to happen that quickly, but it’s more fun than writing leadership. I mean, leadership is important but crime and murder and making things up is way more fun.

Debbi: Making things up is fun.

Catherine: Yes.

Debbi: It’s its own form of work, but at the same time it’s fun work.

Catherine: It is fun work.

Debbi: Yeah. Your books – do you have a traditional, hybrid or are you self-published?

Catherine: I am self-published with my first two, but the textbook, I did work with a publishing company, so that was interesting too, to have that experience after doing two on my own and working with editors and beta readers and that whole spiel.

Debbi: The whole shebang, yes.

Catherine: The whole team.

Debbi: I was going to ask you about your publishing journey. What has it been like for you? Has it been what you expected?

Catherine: With the first one, it was a learning curve, because I wanted to find an editor and I found an excellent editor named Sandy. She was so great at walking me through the entire process because she’s very experienced and does a lot of writing herself and writes books for authors trying to get published for the first time, and she is just brilliant at everything she does. So with having her, that was amazing. I can’t quite remember how I found her. I think I just found her through an online platform or a Google search or something, but she was a huge help. So even though I found it a little overwhelming at times and expensive at times, she really made it feel worth it. And then with the second book, it felt like a breeze because I knew what to expect and it just went a lot quicker.

But I would say there’s so many tools out there, as you know, for authors to use and to benefit from and to get their work out there that it’s no longer … I can look back now and think it’s not as bad as what I thought it was going to be. It can be expensive and you sell books but I haven’t kind of broken even with it yet. So that’s been interesting too.

I would say there’s so many tools out there, as you know, for authors to use and to benefit from and to get their work out there that it’s no longer … I can look back now and think it’s not as bad as what I thought it was going to be.

Debbi: It does add up. Everything out there does add up. It’s incredible. So what is your writing schedule like then?

Catherine: I write at night. I have two twin boys who are two now. Like I said, I was pregnant with them when I was writing the book and publishing it. But now it’s trying to fit it in when I can. So whether it’s before bed, between classes at UMass or early in the morning if I wake up before my kids, then those are the times that I try to fit it in. I wish I had more time, which I know everybody says, to write, but I think it’s just that matter of discipline, committing to a schedule.

Debbi: It’s a matter of discipline. Yes, very much so. It sounds like you have a plan that involves catching time periods where you can, how you can pretty much.

Catherine: Yes. I was listening to another one of your podcasts about writing in the airport and even just having that pen and paper, and I think that’s the thing. I take voice memos and then I take a screenshot of what the voice memo picked up, because if I don’t remember this thought or idea, I’m going to lose it. I don’t often have pencils and paper around these days.

I take voice memos and then I take a screenshot of what the voice memo picked up, because if I don’t remember this thought or idea, I’m going to lose it. I don’t often have pencils and paper around these days.

Debbi: Yes. That’s true. I’ve done that myself actually. I find all sorts of things I wrote years ago that I forgot about. It’s interesting. What authors have most inspired you to write in this genre?

Catherine: I think it’s going back to that R.L. Stein starting as a kid. I think those Fear Street books, Goosebumps books really caught my attention. Also then in high school, I started reading Stephen King, as most high schoolers start to do. I shouldn’t say most high schoolers. I think at the time a lot of my colleagues and peers and friends were. I don’t know if Stephen King is as popular now with the younger demographic, although I want to make sure. I assume he is, but I think folks like that who were pretty mainstream and out there and being published and seen as real authors were the ones that got me kind of hungry to write, and now many years later, writing in this particular genre.

Debbi: Yes. I have to read those Goosebumps books sometime because I keep hearing about them. It’s a period that I didn’t because I didn’t have kids so there are all these children’s books that sound so intriguing to me that I don’t know about.

Catherine: I look back and I think – I didn’t mean to interrupt you – but I’m like, oh my gosh, I was reading some of this at 12, 13. 10 I think I started with some of these books, and they got their hooks in me, I guess.

Debbi: I think they can be equally entertaining for adults.

Catherine: Oh, totally.

Debbi: I like that. I love stuff like that, just to go off and read a middle grade or a child’s book or a teenage, a young adult just for something different, to get away from the adults for a while.

Catherine: Oh, a hundred percent. Gives you a new perspective.

Debbi: Yes. Your book is set in New England, correct? Which is where you are.

Catherine: Yes. I’m in Massachusetts in the greater Newburyport area, so if you’re looking at a map, right on the New Hampshire/Massachusetts line, and my book kind of bounces around with perspective. So it’s thinking about some activities happening years ago in Boston or even at Amherst, and some events happening here in Newburyport, and then some bouncing up to Mount Katahdin in Maine, and really just having some fun with playing around with locations and perspective and time. That’s where I tried to weave some of that into Stunning.

I’m in Massachusetts in the greater Newburyport area, so if you’re looking at a map, right on the New Hampshire/Massachusetts line, and my book kind of bounces around with perspective.

Debbi: That sounds like fun. I love when a book gives you a sense of the place where it’s set, and it sounds like it’s set in some pretty interesting places. I’ve been to Mount Katahdin. [Correction: It was actually Cadillac Mountain.] It’s really nice. We went camping there and I remember the shoreline reminded me of California.

Catherine: Yes. Beautiful

Debbi: The rocky shoreline.

Catherine: It’s beautiful. I mean, Maine’s got so many great spots, but that Mount Katahdin is breathtaking.

Debbi: Yeah. Wow. If there’s one trait or theme that tends to come out in your writing, what do you think it would … the most major theme or device or whatever you use in your work, what would it be?

Catherine: I think it’s perspective. When I teach, and like I said, I teach leadership and management, and I talk often about perspective that people can look at a leader and somebody can think they’re amazing and excellent, and some people can think they’re a complete dud, and it’s always the debate of who’s right or who’s wrong. And this is where, when I wrote Stunning, I talked so much about perception is reality, and how do you understand behavior from a business and management standpoint that I wanted to incorporate some of that into Stunning of like, okay, here’s the perception of one person and how they’re thinking and seeing a situation. Here’s the perspective and thoughts of another person who is going to see that situation in a very different and unique way. And if you’re trying to think about peoples’ sides to stories and making your own assumptions and conclusions and your own perception of what’s going on or what’s happening, I think that was one thing that I try to get across in leadership is that there are different sides and different perceptions. That was one thing that when I wrote Stunning, I wanted to be kind of factual of dates and times, because I just tend to think like that. But it was also the matter too, of thinking, Hey, this is how this person is seeing something that’s going to come up with a murder, and this is how this other person’s going to see and experience it, and how do you as the reader make your own conclusions in starting to think about what’s happening or what’s going to unfold.

I teach leadership and management, and I talk often about perspective that people can look at a leader and somebody can think they’re amazing and excellent, and some people can think they’re a complete dud, and it’s always the debate of who’s right or who’s wrong.

Debbi: Yes. It’s interesting playing with peoples’ perspectives and perceptions. It’s key to writing a mystery, really.

Catherine: It totally is.

Debbi: It’s exploring peoples’ psychology at the same time that you’re telling the story. Pretty cool.

Catherine: And I think for some of the books and even the crime shows or murder shows that I watch or listen to and what have you, I think the ones that have characters that have opinions or perspective and you feel like you can relate to them or that you would be their friend in “real life” are the ones that really do resonate with me the most, so trying to think about what that looks like for my own writing .

Debbi: Absolutely. Really. What advice would you give to somebody who would like to write for a living?

Catherine: I would say find a good editor. Like I said, my editor Sandy Wendell has been absolutely phenomenal. She’s just an expert in this, and I think if I hadn’t met her, I don’t think I would’ve done more. I still work with her. I beta read for a lot of other folks that she’s editing for, and I have a great relationship with her. I think it’s a matter of finding an editor and doing your research, because I did use one website and I found an editor for my fiction book, and the editor on there charged me an incredible amount of money to edit it and they didn’t edit the book. It was a bit of a nightmare and thinking of saying to this editor, you didn’t edit it. Oh yes, I did. And you have to then go through line by line and try to …

Debbi: Oh my God!

Catherine: Self-edit and then try to talk to the company that joined the two of you together by saying hey, I just spent $2000 or $1800, whatever it was at the time, to have somebody look at this.

Debbi: Oh, my gosh.

Catherine: And I thought it was a nightmare. They did side with me because there was so much not done in the book, which would’ve been very embarrassing to put out there. But I would say if somebody’s thinking about getting into this, find a good editor or find another author as a peer or a mentor to walk you through the process, and then it doesn’t seem as bad or scary.

Debbi: Have you ever considered joining a writer’s group?

Catherine: I have. And I did it more when I was, I say younger in writing, maybe in my college, early twenties when I was writing a lot, but not really doing anything with it. I am involved with a writers’ group now on Facebook, although I hate to admit that I don’t really do much with it, but I can see the people’s conversations and comments and what have you, and gatherings and things that they do. And I think, gosh, I really should do more of this because this could be of a huge value and then I just don’t. But I would say that those types of groups and support, to your point, can be incredibly beneficial in trying to navigate this and understand it, especially like the marketing of books after it’s all said and done because that’s its whole other monster.

Debbi: Oh, yes. I don’t think people really have a sense of how much work authors do in terms of marketing their books. It’s just incredible. And especially now when there’s just so much to choose from, it’s almost like you’ve got the paradox of choice at work here. It’s like okay, which one of these things is really best for me?

Catherine: Right, right, right.

Debbi: I suspect what it comes down to is you have to pick something that you think works for you and is actually making connections or something to that effect. That’s just my theory.

Catherine: I think it’s a good one. It’s a good theory to have.

Debbi: It’s all I can ever suggest to anybody. Find something that seems to work for you and lean into that. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up about your books, about what your plans are? Anything?

Catherine: So, again, ready to go back to teach in a couple weeks with school just around the corner. Like I said, I don’t think I’m ever going to write a textbook again, but I would say that’s been a pretty thrilling experience. But the one thing that I’ve noticed, especially since I do a lot of I’ll say beta reading for people who are working with Sandy, is that so many people have so many great book ideas, and they put so much into their books. Some of the books that I’ve beta read for her have been brilliant. And then sometimes you get these books from people trying to write and publish their first book and kind of check that off their “bucket list”. And it seems like people try to – and I hate this expression but I’m going to use it – boil the ocean.

People with that first book. I think they’re trying to get everything in it in order to have it be representative of them and their life and their writing and their expertise and how brilliant they are. I get it because people have lives. They want to share that. I mean, the point of being a writer is thinking about those connections and considering how you can change the world or bring value or whatever that might look like to someone’s noble cause in doing this. The reason I bring that up is because I think for people who are considering writing or even other writers, it’s just a matter of understanding. You don’t have to do it all in one book. You can write another, and there’s nothing wrong with writing articles. It doesn’t always have to be a book. I think that’s one thing that I’m thinking about a lot is that you don’t have to always write a book to be a writer. There are other ways to write too.

The reason I bring that up is because I think for people who are considering writing or even other writers, it’s just a matter of understanding. You don’t have to do it all in one book. You can write another, and there’s nothing wrong with writing articles. It doesn’t always have to be a book.

Debbi: Absolutely correct. Absolutely. I just did a book review for a local newspaper for the first time in, I don’t know how many years. It’s been a long, long time. So it was really kind of a cool experience to do that. Just to be able to do that

Catherine: That’s cool. That’s awesome.

Debbi: Well, it’s been a pleasure talking to you. Before we go, I just want to ask, do you think it would help authors to take leadership courses or to learn more about leadership in general?

Catherine: Ooh, that’s a great question. I never thought about that. I think everyone can benefit from a leadership class, and it doesn’t necessarily need to be like an MBA level seminar of struggling through 12, 8, 16, whatever the week amount is. There’s so many great podcasts and webinars on leadership out there that people can benefit from. But I think even where an intro course can be beneficial is trying to help people think about their own behavior and how they are perceived, like we’ve been talking about, but also trying to understand where they could make small tweaks in how they interact with others that can make them more effective. People always say I want to be a better communicator. Well, that too is this huge loaded word. Well, what does that look like? I think this is where authors can think about how they show up when they talk or represent their book or on social media, and how are they seen as leaders themselves? So I think there’s benefits in understanding how you want to be perceived and what you want your own brand to look like.

One thing that I talk about with my students a lot is what’s your leadership brand? Some consultants and academics call it a leadership legacy. I like the idea of a brand. How do you want people to define the value that you bring? And to your question, I think that lens can be applied to writing and being an author. What do you want people to feel when they read what you write? How do you want to be perceived? How do you want people to talk about you when you’re not there? I think those can be all important parts of leadership, but also in being an author.

Debbi: That’s great what you’re saying. You’re reading my mind a little bit.

Catherine: Oh, good. Perfect.

Debbi: We’re kind of vibing here. I definitely get what you’re saying and it’s really good advice.

Catherine: Oh, good. Hope it helps.

Debbi: Oh, I think everybody could benefit from learning about leadership skills and how to take responsibility for your own career. Learn to use your strengths, lean into your strengths rather than trying to do everything, all that kind of stuff, delegating when necessary.

Catherine: Yes. All those loaded things.

Debbi: Yes. All those things, but I want to thank you so much for being here and talking with us today. Thank you for sharing your expertise now with us. Everybody should watch your Ted Talk

Catherine: My pleasure. Thank you.

Debbi: What’s it called again?

Catherine: Want to become a better leader? Here’s how. Just listen. So a little play on words there.

Debbi: Just listen. Yeah, just listen. Always good to listen.

Catherine: Yes.

Debbi: So I’ll just put in a quick plug while we’re at it for my fundraiser. I’ve started a team to raise funds for the Dystonia Medical Research Foundation. I have dystonia, so I know what it’s like. I know that there should be more research done to find a cure for this condition. I will include a link with the show notes and hopefully, it’s free to join the team. You don’t have to pay anything, but if you can join the team, it helps show support for raising money for this condition that people don’t know about. A lot of people don’t know about it. It’s a movement disorder, in case you were wondering. So in any case, on that note, I will just finish up by saying that our next guest will be Tom Fowler. And until then, take care and happy reading.

Click here to enter Catherine’s giveaway!

And here to join the DMV Dystonia Team!

Thanks for reading! Support the podcast by becoming a patron!

View Details

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Anna Willett.

Check out our discussion about thriller writing and her Cold Case Mystery series.

You can download a PDF of the transcript here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today is the author of several thriller novels, including five books in The Cold Case Mystery series. Her latest book is called Needles and Pins, and it’s this week’s giveaway, so make sure to check out the giveaway on my blog or on her Instagram. You can find it there on Instagram for sure. So it is my pleasure to introduce as my guest the author, Anna Willett. Hi Anna. How are you doing today?

Anna: Hi, I’m well. How are you?

Debbi: Good, thank you, although right now at the moment, I’m in Maryland where tornadoes are threatening somewhere on the horizon.

Anna: Oh really?

Debbi: Yes. Apparently we’ve been getting tornado warnings in different parts, not too far from where I live, but it’s all very sketchy right now. Hopefully I won’t be interrupting this podcast to dive under a desk or into a bathroom or something. I don’t know where I’d go.

Anna: Oh, that’s scary.

Debbi: It is. They are scary. In any case, let’s talk about your thrilling novels rather than my thrilling tornadoes. At what point did you decide to write a series?

Anna: Well, as I said in the post, I wrote a book called The Woman Behind Her, and the main character finds herself as the suspect in a murder. The lead detective on that case was Veronica Pope, who I became very interested in and wanted to write more of, and I thought, I think that I can do a lot more with this character, and so I’m going to write another book. So after really what was the second book in the series, I thought, there’s so much more I could do. There’s so many more places I could take her. I had so many more ideas for the sort of situation she could be in and her team, and it went from there.

Debbi: It’s fascinating. How many books had you written before you made that decision to go after that series?

Anna: I think it would’ve been 13, maybe 12 or 13 books.

Debbi: That’s very interesting how a character gripped you to the point where you decided to create a series for the first time.

Anna: Yes. Well, I’d had another series. It was just three books, and it was about a journalist, but all the others are standalones. And the woman behind her was, I thought, going to be a standalone, but it turned into this ongoing series.

Debbi: Yes, it’s fascinating. What inspired you to create Veronica Pope? What kind of inspiration went into creating the character itself?

Anna: Well, I wanted a female leader. I like to write about strong female lead characters, and so I wanted a female detective, and I wanted her to be – I’m going to say normal – so that she’s just an average woman who’s very good at her job, and she’s not a super cop. She’s not invulnerable to being hurt. She cares; she worries about things. She has her insecurities, she has her family life. She’s a single mother. She has ambitions for her job, but she’s also a little bit funny and down to earth, and that’s the sort of character I would like to read.

I like to write about strong female lead characters, and so I wanted a female detective, and I wanted her to be – I’m going to say normal – so that she’s just an average woman who’s very good at her job, and she’s not a super cop.

Debbi: Yeah, a very relatable sort of character.

Anna: Yeah, yeah.

Debbi: And skilled.

Anna: Yes. So I wanted her to be really good at her job and very insightful and very observant, but at the same time, I wanted her to have the same worries that most people would.

Debbi: Yes, exactly. Do you plan to write more books in the series?

Anna: I haven’t decided. I’m not sure. I might. If something comes to me, if an idea comes to me that I think would be perfect for Veronica. Not all, but quite a few of the books I drew from real unsolved cases in Western Australia. This last one was not one of those, but most of them I’ve drawn on those cases. Some were unsolved when I wrote them. Some were solved, but not really to the satisfaction of knowing everything about them. So I sort of drew on those cases and took them in another direction and put Veronica in them. So if something comes up that fascinates me, a crime or an unsolved cold case, then I might take that and write about that with Veronica.

Not all, but quite a few of the books I drew from real unsolved cases in Western Australia. This last one was not one of those, but most of them I’ve drawn on those cases.

Debbi: So it sounds like you take a lot of inspiration from true crime.

Anna: In Western Australia, yes. The previous one, The Ideal Couple, which is set in a small mining town way outside of Perth, I took the inspiration from a real life case where a husband and wife went out into the Outback and were prospecting and went missing, and it’s never been solved. And so I took that and changed it and put Veronica into it, and she comes in when it’s a cold case and she manages to solve it. So those sort of things, I think, oh, we don’t really know anything about what happened and what if it was this and this and this, and then I could put Veronica in there. If something grabs me like that, I’d definitely write another one.

Debbi: Cool. It sounds like each of these books are not necessarily part of a planned arc for the series, more like things come to you and they’re more spontaneous, like, what would she do in this situation?

Anna: Yes, yes, that’s exactly right. So there’s no real arc to it. I sort of know where she’s going on her journey, but the cases that will come across her desk and the ones that she’ll want to investigate, I’ll wait for the inspiration for those.

Debbi: That’s really cool. That’s great. How would you describe your writing to someone who’s never read your work?

I sort of know where she’s going on her journey, but the cases that will come across her desk and the ones that she’ll want to investigate, I’ll wait for the inspiration for those.

Anna: I would say that most of my books are thrillers, even the crime, the Cold Case series, they are thrillers, mystery/suspense thrillers. Most of my books are thrillers. A few are horror. I have a few horror as well as straight thrillers. A couple of them are supernatural horror. Quite a lot of them are domestic thrillers. So it just depends on the inspiration and the story ideas. I usually have a few ideas in a queue in my brain when I’m deciding which one to work on next. But, if you like thrillers, if you like mystery, if you like suspense, tension, and they’re probably a little bit grittier than a cozy mystery, for example.

Debbi: Right, right. They sound like fun.

Anna: They are fun to write.

Debbi: What kind of readers do you generally attract? Do you have a sense of who you appeal to?

Anna: I think I appeal to a lot of overseas readers who are interested in thrillers and crime and suspense, but also enjoy the location as it’s something new for many of them. Most people don’t know very much about Western Australia. Most people know more about the Eastern states, and because Perth is the most isolated city in the world, you sort of have a feeling it’s a place where anything could happen, and I think that appeals to a lot of overseas readers.

Most people don’t know very much about Western Australia. Most people know more about the Eastern states, and because Perth is the most isolated city in the world, you sort of have a feeling it’s a place where anything could happen, and I think that appeals to a lot of overseas readers.

Debbi: Well, I’m intrigued. Sounds fascinating. How much research do you do when you prepare to write?

Anna: I do quite a lot of research, particularly for the series because it’s a police procedural, so I try to be as accurate as I possibly can be. I have a friend who is a former Western Australian police detective, and I talk to him a lot about how do you think they would react in this situation? What do you think would be the next step when they’re doing this? Is it feasible that they would do this? How would they access this information? What exactly do you think they would say when serving a search warrant in this situation? Where would that allow them to search? Would I have to have a separate warrant for that? I try to get all the details as correct as I can possibly get them so there’s that authenticity.

Debbi: Yes, yes. If you’re going to do police procedural type stuff, you definitely need that.

Anna: And unlike a lot of other places in the world, there’s not a lot of information on any procedural elements in Western Australia. You can buy books on police procedures in the UK and in some parts of America, but you can’t really find anything on Western Australia in that way.

Debbi: How interesting.

Anna: So you really need someone you can ask.

Debbi: Yes, because things do have a tendency to change from region to region.

Anna: Yes. In Australia it’s a little bit more like the UK. Generally it’s the same, but in each state there’s a different police force. Most things are very similar in the way that they would operate, but I want it to be as authentic as I can make it.

Debbi: Sometimes I’ve noticed in the United States anyway, from county to county, some things can change about the way business is done, so I was wondering if the same thing was true of Eastern and Western Australia?

Anna: Not to the same extent as probably in America. We sort of mirror the British system here in Australia for the most part, and although there are different police forces, most procedural things would be very similar. There might be slight changes, differences in the law in different states, but it’s a very similar sort of approach in every state.

Debbi: Right, right. What authors do you find most inspiring to read?

Anna: I really enjoy Karin Slaughter, and I like Michael Connelly, Paula Hawkins, Clare Mackintosh. I have been reading a bit of Colleen Hoover, which is not crime, which is unusual for me to not be reading crime, but I do enjoy her writing as well. I like Stephen King. I’ll read anything. If it’s a good story, I’ll read anything, but my fallback is usually thrillers and crime.

Debbi: Yes. Are you more of a plotter or a pantser?

Anna: I’m a pantser

Debbi: People know. Nobody has to think twice about that one.

Anna: Yes.

Debbi: Interesting.

Anna: I try. Sometimes I think, yes, I’m going to plot a little bit more this time and I’ll write it all out. And then next thing I know, everything has taken me somewhere completely that I didn’t expect to go.

Debbi: That’s interesting. I find that I can plan things, but I don’t necessarily stick to plan, let’s put it that way.

Anna: Sticking to the plan, it’s hard to stick to the plan when the characters and the situation are telling you something else.

Debbi: Exactly. Precisely. What are you working on now?

Anna: I’m working on a standalone thriller at the moment, a domestic thriller. I’m also working on a horror novel when I have time as well. So I’m sort of writing one and writing a little bit of the other one at the same time. I’m taking my time on this standalone novel. I’m not rushing it or anything like that, so I don’t know when it will be finished, but it’s more of a domestic thriller.

Debbi: I think it’s good to take one’s time on things.

Anna: Yes. I’m enjoying taking my time. I guess the central theme of it in some ways is elder abuse.

Debbi: Ah, I’ve seen that come up a lot in books lately.

Anna: Well, it’s something that’s very real and it’s more common than I think most people realize. I’ve spoken to a lot of people about it, family and nurses from nursing homes and yes, it’s something that’s very real and I think often not really explored.

Debbi: What sort of writing schedule do you keep?

Anna: I usually write at night. I’m more of an evening writer. I don’t write in the morning or anything like that. I like to write later in the night, and I like to write longhand in a notebook and then I transcribe in the day.

I don’t write in the morning or anything like that. I like to write later in the night, and I like to write longhand in a notebook and then I transcribe in the day.

Debbi: Interesting that you write out by longhand first. I haven’t done that in ages.

Anna: I didn’t used to. I started just typing and that’s how I did the first few books. But then when I started writing notes and then more notes, I just found the ideas came a little bit easier when I’m using the pen than when I’m typing. And for some reason it just seems to come easier to me and flow more. I get a sore hand, but it comes easier, the ideas and the words.

Debbi: I can understand that actually, because I have a tendency to write movie reviews and book reviews out at night

Anna: I love it.

Debbi: But especially movie reviews, I find out I will just sit down and just start writing them out, and they just kind of read okay. It’s like, I could put this up on a blog, which I do.

Anna: It flows. It flows really well when you’re writing by hand, I think.

Debbi: It’s interesting. I never thought about doing novels that way or anything like that.

Anna: I fill a lot of notebooks.

Debbi: I fill up a lot of notebooks as well. Oh God. I journal. I spent years journaling. It seems like decades even. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in writing for a living?

Anna: It wouldn’t be an easy road if it’s for a living. Don’t expect that to happen really quickly, or with one book. It takes a lot of time, a lot of work, a lot of books, a lot of hours spent writing. Just keep persevering and write another one and another one. And if the one you write does okay, but it’s not great, you just have to write another one. You just have to keep going.

It takes a lot of time, a lot of work, a lot of books, a lot of hours spent writing. Just keep persevering and write another one and another one.

Debbi: That’s it. Absolutely. Never give up.

Anna: And don’t expect it to make you a fortune when you write one and publish them. Having modest expectations, I think would be the best thing. And don’t give up your day job.

Debbi: Exactly. Totally right. Total words of wisdom there, folks. Really! Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Anna: No, just that I really enjoyed this. I was really looking forward to talking to you.

Debbi: Same here. Well, I really appreciate your being here, and thank you so much.

Anna: Well, you’re welcome. It was fun.

Debbi: It was fun for me too. Someday I hope to visit Australia.

Anna: I think you would love it like most people. Yes, you should definitely come to Perth. It’s a wonderful place to visit.

Debbi: Oh, cool. I will definitely keep that in mind. Have to go, have to go places. In any case, I just want to thank you again for spending time with us, Anna, and my thanks to everyone listening. If you enjoyed the show, please leave a review if you would. It helps. We are also Patreon supported with bonus episodes and other perks for supporters, so check that out if you would – patreon.com/crimecafe. So until next time, when our guest will be Catherine Rymsha, take care and happy reading.

Here’s the link again!

View Details

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features The Adventures of Philip Marlowe in “The Orange Dog.”

And my thanks to Old Time Radio Researchers Group for the content. You’re awesome!

View Details

In this episode, Debbi Mack and F.R. Jameson discuss the classic film noir, Kiss Me Deadly (1955).

Directed by Robert Aldrich

Screenplay by A.I. Bezzerides and Robert Aldrich (uncredited)

Based on the 1952 novel, Kiss Me, Deadly, by Mickey Spillane

Produced by Robert Aldrich

View Details

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Michael J. Young, MD.

Check out our discussion about his medical thrillers and enter his book giveaway here!

You can download a PDF of the transcript here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. Today my guest is a doctor who spent 30 years as a surgeon while living and practicing medicine in Chicago. He’s the author of a memoir/assessment of the current medical system – oh my – titled The Illness of Medicine: Experiences of Clinical Practice. He’s also authored a trilogy of medical thrillers, and they all sound absolutely terrifying. I say that in the nicest possible way. I mean it in the best possible way. Anyway, he is also on the faculty of the Departments of Urology and Biomedical Engineering at the University of Illinois at Chicago. He has invented and patented various medical devices, too. Amazing guy! It’s my pleasure to introduce Dr. Michael J. Young, medical thriller writer and M.D. Hi, Michael. How are you doing today?

Michael: I’m wonderful, thank you.

Debbi: Great. Fantastic. Wow. My first question to you, of course, is how are we going to fix our horrible healthcare system?

Michael: Oh, we could spend hours and days.

Debbi: Hours, yes. I was going to say, you probably ask the same question all the time in your books.

Michael: Every morning.

Debbi: Boy, I can tell you, I’ve had enough experience with it to know. So I was reading your first few chapters in Net of Deception and my gosh, what egregious examples of what not to do on the internet.

Michael: Yes, it is. Well, actually, Net of Deception evolved out of my dissatisfaction and distrust and frustration, if you will, with the online pharmaceutical access that people have. As easy as it is, and in many ways, the advantages of having it are great, but the disadvantage is that patients don’t have the opportunity to truly have informed consent about potentially very dangerous drugs. And in this particular scenario, nefarious activity occurred within the company that was selling these drugs. So it was really predicated on my own frustration with that evolution of how drugs are obtained today.

Debbi: Yes. And not to mention medical information in general on the internet.

Michael: Yes. Again, it’s a double-edged sword. I encourage people to have information. The problem with the internet is that you don’t always know the reliability or the source of that information. And although it may say it’s from so-and-so, it may not be. And so a consumer of this data, of this knowledge, of this vocabulary has to be extraordinarily mindful and diligent in assuring that they’re obtaining that information from a reliable source.

I encourage people to have information. The problem with the internet is that you don’t always know the reliability or the source of that information.

Debbi: Yes, absolutely. And so often things will depend on other factors that aren’t being addressed in the information that you have, so that you don’t have the whole picture.

Michael: No, you don’t, and that carries over too much of the direct consumer advertising of drugs. I mean, there’s only two countries in the world that allow it – the United States and New Zealand. That’s it. And so when you hear or watch these ads on TV, everything looks wonderful but you’re only getting a snippet because there’s only so much time with which that information can be given to you and you can’t decipher it. The legal information that’s given is boilerplate. Everybody has the same side effects.

Debbi: It’s read very fast.

Michael: Very fast, but also at the end, you may die. You may this, you may that. Well, of course. And so how is a consumer supposed to make that decision? But unfortunately for us as physicians, patients come to the office with a preconceived solution to the problem without really understanding the problem. But they’ve had this wonderful advertisement telling them all the benefits. And so if you don’t fulfill that requisite, they become very frustrated and they will shop till they find someone who will prescribe that particular medication or pill without really having an understanding of the disease or the alternatives. So it’s a problem.

Debbi: Yes. There’s a lot of reasons to be cautious while looking for information on the internet for those reasons.

Michael: Absolutely.

Debbi: Your trilogy. What inspired you to write a trilogy, and did you plan from the start to make it a trilogy?

Michael: That’s a very insightful question, and the answer is no, I did not. I guess it all begins with my frustration with the healthcare environment and our healthcare delivery system, which prompted me to write my first book. After I wrote that, I felt that I could convey the same information, discussing the entitlement and the greed and all of those things I was very dissatisfied with in the healthcare industry. If I fictionalized it, I could then reach a different group of readers who aren’t interested in reading a dialogue about healthcare. That’s about as dry as a desert to some people. They may be interested, but they don’t want to delve through that. Either it’s difficult emotionally, or they just don’t have the tolerance. They want to be entertained.

I guess it all begins with my frustration with the healthcare environment and our healthcare delivery system, which prompted me to write my first book.

So I decided a way to entertain people but still convey the information of healthcare vulnerabilities was to fictionalize it. These books are not simple books. They are not Colonel Custard in the library with the lead pipe These are books that I have written in an effort to educate, perhaps subtly, but nonetheless give information. They are based on my personal experiences. I don’t know if you want me to delve into that, how that evolved, but I’m happy to.

These are books that I have written in an effort to educate, perhaps subtly, but nonetheless give information. They are based on my personal experiences.

Debbi: I think we can talk for a little bit about that, please.

Michael: Well, for instance, the first of the trilogy was Consequence of Murder: Algor Mortis is the title. And when you see algor mortis, what does that mean? Well, algor mortis is one of the initial phases of what occurs to a body after it dies. We have three of them: the livor mortis, which is translated as the color of death, where a body dies and because there’s no longer blood being pumped, the blood will pool to the back if a person is lying upright, face up. So if you turn the body over, the back will be crimson because the blood has pooled. Pardon me?

Debbi: Lividity. Is that what it is?

Michael: Well, no. It has to do with the fact that because gravity will take over and pull the blood down, and there’s nothing pumping or moving the blood, it will go to the most dependent portion of the body. So that’s why the body will be blanched on top and more crimson on the back. The third phase is rigor mortis, which I’m sure we’ve all heard of, which is translated from Latin as the stiffness of death. But in between them is one called algor mortis, which is translated as the coolness of death. And what that relates to, Debbi, is the fact that a human body will lower its temperature by one and a half degrees Fahrenheit per hour to ambient temperature. So when you’re watching television and the coroner says, the body’s been dead 12 hours, well, how do we know that? We know that because of the body temperature. So algor mortis relates to that temperature change.

And in writing this first book of the trilogy, it had to do with the fact that I once had a patient that I was operating on, that I came into a lot of bleeding in the kidney as I was working on a kidney stone with a laser. That stone eventually got stuck in blood, which clotted, which held it in place and made it easier to treat. I decided I needed a synthetic clot so I created one in the lab in my job as an innovator at the University of Illinois, and when I submitted it for patenting, the department and the university felt, well, this will be very expensive, so let’s put it on the shelf. To which I said, no, no, let me use this. I can kill somebody with this and I did so in a book.

And just to pull it together, I decided, well, how can we use this? Well, if I inject it in a vein, and this material starts as a liquid at cool temperature, and it solidifies at body temperature, I decided if I inject it in someone’s vein, it will then cause a clot, which will lead to a pulmonary embolism. Patient dies. They cool, and of course, when they cool the material liquefies again, so you can’t find it. So the plot started with my experiences with this material, and I developed a character, Jay Yamp, which I then put into the other novels. So they all feed into experiences in my life as a surgeon. but also they add a twist to show the vulnerability of patients in a hospital environment or medical environment.

Debbi: Oh, yes. Wow! That’s a mind blower there. I like that.

Michael: So all the books, they’re not simple stories. I mean, they’re interesting, but they’re not, again, just a police agent or FBI agent seeking for the killer. These have a medical association, something that has to do with physiology or anatomy, and I’m very mindful to explain all of this, but I think people like to hear that.

Debbi: That’s very cool. That’s great. I mean, I can appreciate, as a person who used to practice law, why you would want to take your experiences and put them in a fictionalized context, because I did it with my own books,

Michael: Right. And there is nothing better than reality to create fiction around that.

Debbi: Exactly.

Michael: Some of the things that happened to us, we could not make up.

Debbi: Precisely. Yeah. Sometimes you have to kind of think, okay, will people believe this?

Michael: Yeah, they do and they will.

Debbi: They do, yeah.

Michael: So that was CONSEQUENCE OF MURDER about that which was created in a lab used for a nefarious reason. NET OF DECEPTION had to do with online pharmaceutical vulnerability we have. And then the last of that group To Cure or Kill had to do with the development of a new anti-cancer vaccine and the pharmaceutical espionage around that. So again, all of these I would be hard pressed to say, is this fact or fiction? I think they all could occur.

Debbi: Right. Yeah. Scary stuff. Do you plan to extend the trilogy?

Michael: No, the trilogy is completed. I just finished a book and just published a book on a completely different venue. It had to do with some of the psychology of the game of golf, and how it relates to a metaphor to life. I co-authored that with a psychiatrist. But my next book, I’m going back to the murder mystery thrillers, so that will be book 6, and I’ll be starting writing on that probably in the fall in about six weeks, and that will return to our vulnerabilities and the risks involved in the healthcare environment, but it won’t be part of the trilogy. It will be freestanding.

I just finished a book and just published a book on a completely different venue. It had to do with some of the psychology of the game of golf, and how it relates to a metaphor to life.

Debbi: All right. With a different character, set of characters.

Michael: Different characters. Those three books have the same main character. This will be a different venue, different problem, and again, a contemporary issue that I think those who like this venue will be very intrigued with. It has to do with the DNA companies.

Debbi: Oh, wow. That’s a hot topic.

Michael: Yes.

Debbi: All of these are. What kind of writing schedule do you keep?

Michael: I don’t. I am not one who can sit down at 5 in the morning, 6 in the morning, 8 at night, whatever, and say, today I’m going to write. If it’s not there, it’s not there. I have an idea what I want to write, and when I have thought about it subconsciously enough, maybe that’s a day, maybe it’s a week, I don’t know, then I start. And once the ball gets going, I will come back to it frequently, but I will do it more based on my schedule rather than on a particular … I’m rigid at eight o’clock, I’m going to sit down and write. I can’t do that. That’s not how I think. When it’s flowing, it’s flowing and when it’s not, it’s not.

Debbi: I get it. Really. What authors have most inspired your own writing?

Michael: I would say Robin Cook, Michael Crichton and perhaps the reason I mention them is because … well, Crichton is deceased, but they’re both MDs. Robin Cook’s first book, THE YEAR OF THE INTERN, was a book about healthcare, very similar to my experiences in writing ILLNESS OF MEDICINE, and then he wrote a thriller COMA which was later made into a film with Michael Douglas, I believe was in it. My first novel was CONSEQUENCE OF MURDER.

Michael Crichton, also an MD, wrote his first book, ANDROMEDA STRAIN. That’s a classic to me, and so I think, again, using their medical background, they were able to fabricate stories that people are interested in, particularly thrillers that aren’t predicated on just someone with a gun shooting somebody and then investigating it. They are much more complicated stories than that. And so that is what I’ve tried to, I see myself in that mold.

Debbi: Very good. What are your techniques for informing people through your fiction without getting too technical?

Michael: Again, a very good question. I practiced medicine for 30 years as a surgeon. I had to inform people of very technical problems, but put it in words and phrases and terminology that they could grasp and understand. So I think I’ve had a breadth of experience in making that translation. And so in the books, of course, I talk about the lasers and I talk about bleeding management. In many ways, the complicated problems that I filter down and take my time in making an explanation that I feel anyone with a moderate amount of interest would understand. If you look at Tom Clancy’s books, his stories, he would spend pages talking about the details of the bolt connected to the screw, connected to the door in infinite detail. I am not that detailed because I think in some ways – not to dismiss his writing, which is brilliant – but in some ways, you almost lose your focus. So I have to keep the reader’s focus, but give them information to help them with the next step in the story.

In many ways, the complicated problems that I filter down and take my time in making an explanation that I feel anyone with a moderate amount of interest would understand.

Debbi: Exactly. Kind of giving them context for understanding the whole thing.

Michael: It’s context, but it also can be used as a teaser, because you bring up a situation and then they have to wonder where does this come into play.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah.

Michael: Can’t lay it all out in front of the reader. They would get bored.

Debbi: That would get boring, yes. This isn’t a textbook, it’s fiction.

Michael: It’s fiction, and part of fiction that makes it interesting is that the reader is trying to figure things out as they’re going through, without being told what is going to happen.

Debbi: Yes. Yes, indeed. That’s very good. What do you find is the best way to establish a readership? How have you reached out to readers?

Michael: It’s hard. It’s difficult. I’m finding that people are more engaged in watching with streaming today than they are the effort to sit down and read. I think a lot of that evolved from the Covid issue, where people were not about milling with people. They were by themselves, and what do you do? You want entertainment, so you watch, less read. But I try to stimulate the reading by trying to get the word out on the various social media, shows such as this, radio, everything I can to get the word out. And I do think it does become a bit of a domino [effect], that once you get that ball going, more will follow.

Debbi: Yes. Yes. I agree. I mean, especially if you can reach the people who are really, really interested in your particular subject, they will want to talk about your book online and tell people about it.

Michael: Agreed. I think everyone has an issue or has an experience in the healthcare environment. We’ve all been patients. We’ve all had complaints or problems or frightening events that either did or could have happened to ourselves or someone we know. And so, just that vulnerability, it isn’t something that happens to somebody else. You know, I can read a thriller written about a spy. That’s not my life. But I could have consequences to my just being in my everyday world and then get sucked into the vortex of bad things that can happen as I’m going through surgery or in the hospital environment, drugs, et cetera. So these are real things that I think all of us are aware could happen to me.

I think everyone has an issue or has an experience in the healthcare environment. We’ve all been patients. We’ve all had complaints or problems or frightening events that either did or could have happened to ourselves or someone we know

Debbi: Yes.

Michael: And that’s what makes it real for them, even though it’s fictionalized.

Debbi: It does. It makes it very concrete and gripping in that way because you know, oh, this could be me.

Michael: Could be me.

Debbi: Yeah, but for the grace of God.

Michael: Right, right.

Debbi: What advice would you give to anyone interested in having a writing career?

Michael: They have to be dedicated. It is a very difficult thing to do. It takes an enormous amount of time and energy. It’s also something that is very … It’s very solitary in its performance. You have to be committed. I’ve met many people who say, oh, I’m going to write a book. Well, go at it. Be prepared to spend a lot of time by yourself. Be prepared that it is arduous. It is difficult. It’s not going to happen overnight. All my books take, for me, about a year and a half to write. They don’t come out easily. And so you have to realize it’s a marathon. It’s not a sprint, and you can’t force it.

I’ve met many people who say, oh, I’m going to write a book. Well, go at it. Be prepared to spend a lot of time by yourself. Be prepared that it is arduous. It is difficult. It’s not going to happen overnight.

Debbi: So true.

Michael: You just can’t force it. I teach at the University of Illinois in designing and developing surgical instruments, and I think we spend more time in instructing students on problem identification than we do on solutions. If you understand the problem, oftentimes the solution will be much more easily obtainable. I think if you’re going to write a book, you have to think, think, think, think about what you’re writing, why you’re writing, who your audience is, where you want to go before you just start getting in and writing. Now, that doesn’t imply that you have to spend forever outlining things. I don’t. I don’t outline at all, but I think about it a great deal before I even begin writing.

Debbi: Yes. That’s a good way to approach it. Even if you don’t outline, just think about how you would like the story to go.

Michael: You have to. The problem identification, understanding and ideating around the problem becomes more critical than the solution. Takes time. And be patient with yourself rather than just delving in and starting to write in different directions.

Debbi: Good advice. Good advice. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Michael: No, I think these are fun books. They are interesting books. They are thought provoking books. I think as much as there is – yes, there is murder, there is intrigue, there is mystery in all of them – at the end of the day, I wanted readers to connect with them and think about, again, our health world, our healthcare environment, and the vulnerabilities that we have in it, and hopefully shed some light on the problems I think that are in that environment. So there is an underlying purpose to the books other than just to entertain.

Debbi: I think that’s wonderful. That’s fantastic. And I want to thank you so much for being with us today, Michael. I really appreciate your time.

Michael: Thank you so much.

Debbi: It’s my pleasure. So on that note, I will just say, check out Michael J. Young, M.D’s. thrillers. They sound fantastic. And you can enter his giveaway. I will put a link in the notes where you can find the giveaway link. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a review or becoming a supporter on Patreon. I post all sorts of bonus content there for Patreon supporters. In any case, thank you so much for tuning in to watch or listen, depending on what platform you’re on. Our next guest will be Michele Scott. Oh, the temptation to make an Office joke here, Okay. I won’t go there. I will not say anything about Michael Scott. Oh, I just did. Oh, sorry. Okay. Next time. Michele Scott, not Michael. Steve Carell’s not going to be on. And in the meantime, take care and happy reading.

Show us some love! Support the podcast on Patreon!

View Details

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Phil M. Williams.

If you like thrillers, you’ll want to check this out.

And don’t forget to check out his giveaway here!

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

We also have a shop now. Check it out!

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

The transcript can be downloaded here.

Debbi: Hi everyone! This week we have with us the author of 27 books, primarily thrillers. His stories tend to explore modern dilemmas and controversies which pit powerful villains against average citizens. He’s giving away an audio version of one of them, NO GOOD DEED. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest, Phil M. Williams. Hi, Phil. How are you doing today?

Phil: Very good, Debbi. Thank you so much for having me on!

Debbi: It’s my pleasure, believe me. I noticed that most of your books are thrillers. I also noticed that you do have at least one series, the 2050 series.

Phil: That’s correct.

Debbi: What prompted you to write this series?

Phil: I think I was interested in – in thinking about what would happen in my lifetime. Right? I mean, I’m 48 years old, so I’m hoping I get another 25 years at least. So I was thinking, okay, well, I wonder what the world would look like. I don’t know. 2050 is a good, seemed like a good round number. And I see a lot of the – I’m interested in history. I’m interested in some politics. And to me it was just sort of an extension of.

Now it’s a very exaggerated version of what’s maybe happening in the world today, but it’s sort of taking the extreme versions of totalitarianism and projecting it on the United States and seeing what life would be like for. And in the series, there’s four main characters. And so I wanted to see, wanted to explore what life would be like for the one character as a farmer. He’s an average guy that’s struggling, as a lot of our farmers are today, and struggling to make ends meet.

And then you have the congresswoman who’s sort of a budding communist congresswoman who eventually rises to power. And then you have the banker, who sort of comes from a very shadowy family where they control a lot of the economics behind the scenes. So you get a chance as the reader to kind of, to see that.

And then you have just this regular woman who’s sort of, who’s a nurse, and she and the farmer end up. They end up, they end up crossing paths, but they kind of show that … those two characters show the every man and every woman perspective of what life is like in this dystopian future, whereas, and then the other side of the coin, you have the corporate power banker, and then you have the governmental power person that ends up being the president. They show you the power side of the dynamics, which I think is really interesting for the readers.

And you can see, as the series goes on, you can see how the plots wrap around each other and how the characters sort of interact with each other. And in the beginning, you don’t always see how it all is going to connect, but it all kind of sort of weaves together, which I think was just unbelievably complex to do.

The plot outline was – Yeah, the plot outline was over 100,000 words. I think it was, like, 130,000 words just for the plot outline. And I put a – put a lot. I spent over a year just working on the five book plot outline before I even wrote a single sentence of the series.

Yeah, the plot outline was over 100,000 words. I think it was, like, 130,000 words just for the plot outline. And I put a – put a lot. I spent over a year just working on the five book plot outline before I even wrote a single sentence of the series.

Debbi: Oh, my goodness!

Phil: Yeah.

Debbi: I’m always in awe of people who can do that. Write out, like, entire plot developments in an outline and then turn it into a book.

Phil: Yeah, I’m definitely a plotter. And if you’re not a plotter, I don’t know, Debbi, if you’re a plotter.

Debbi: I am, actually.

Phil: Okay.

Debbi: I’m very much a plotter, but I do like to kind of give myself this wiggle room to go off on other things. Yeah.

Phil: Yeah. I do the same thing. I mean, I think, like, I’ll come up with a very detailed plot outline, but a lot of times when I’m writing it, I’ll come with, something new will come up, and it’s like, oh, that changes my outline. So then I got to go through the whole plot outline and make some minor changes here and there to make it to sort of fit the new direction.

But, yeah, I try to at least maintain some flexibility, not be so rigid on the plot outline, but. But I’m probably closer to rigid than, I’m on the opposite spectrum as, like, say, Stephen King, who just, you know, of course, he’s the pantser. Right? That’s the example everybody gives, I guess.

Debbi: Yeah. I mean, I’m amazed when people can do that, too. I’m just like, you know, no, I have to have some idea of where I’m going. I need a little roadmap of some sort.

Phil: Yeah, I agree with you. I’m the same way.

Debbi: So you’ve written a lot more standalones, though. What is it that draws you toward writing standalones?

Phil: That’s a good question. You know, it’s funny because I don’t know many, many indie authors that are doing well that write standalones. It’s just, it’s not, I know it’s a – it’s a terrible business choice, but I personally enjoy reading standalones and I, I think that’s probably why I like writing them. But I think it’s, when you’re writing a long series, I think it gets, to me, it gets repetitive, and I like the idea of a completely different – I like the idea of telling a complete story in a single book as best as I possibly can.

[W]hen you’re writing a long series, I think it gets, to me, it gets repetitive, and … I like the idea of telling a complete story in a single book as best as I possibly can.

And then once I feel like I’ve exhausted it, I feel like if I were to try to write another one, it’s just not going to, it’s just the, it’s always, the sequels always pale in comparison to the original, you know, and that’s kind of the way I view my standalones. It’s like, well, I put everything into that story and once it’s over, I got nothing left to say.

Debbi: You know, I think that’s great, actually. I think the fact that you focus so much on the quality of the story rather than worrying about, oh, I have to write, you know, three or four novels. Put them all out, you know, this year. I mean…

Phil: My bank account doesn’t like it, but….

Debbi: Well, I get that. Believe me, I get it. Yeah. But I think – I think quality pays off in the end, when you come right down to it.

Phil: Yeah, I agree.

Debbi: How would you describe your writing to someone who is interested in buying your books, but isn’t familiar with your writing?

Phil: I would say just looking at what the reviews tend to say, because I think my opinions on these things are always wrong. Even my opinions on my own work, as often if I’m, if I’m talking to a reader, you know, it’s, it’s, I think that the reader’s opinions are probably more going to be correct.

And they tend to write like, if you look through my reviews, you’ll notice a lot of people will say they can read them very quickly, they’re page turners, that they’re, and I – and I purposely don’t write in particularly flowery language or, um, particularly complex. And now a lot of the plots can be complex, but I want the average person to pick this up and feel like it’s entertainment, not that it’s drudgery.

And so I’ve tried to write it in such a way. Plus, I don’t, it’s partly me, too, is I don’t like to read books there. I feel like it’s drudgery where the – where the author is, you know, so smart that I can’t understand half the words in there. But, so I would say, yeah, they would probably say that they’re – they’re page turners, that they’re – that they’re going to be, there’s going to be twists and turns and there’s going to be characters that you love that might get killed off, that you just don’t know what’s going to happen next. That’s right.

Debbi: Wow! Well, you make it sound incredibly intriguing. And I have to tell you, I agree with you on the flowery language. I’m with Elmore Leonard. Skip, you know, leave out the parts, people skip.

Phil: Yeah, that’s true. That’s exactly right.

Debbi: Amen.

Phil: That’s a great quote. I love that quote.

Debbi: Yeah. I love Elmore Leonard. I mean, the guy was, was awesome. What are you working on now?

Phil: I’m working on a book now. The title is a working title, so it may not end up being the title, but it’s, it’s called WHAT HAPPENED IN THE WOODS. And it’s about a – it’s about a young woman who is from the trailer park. She’s grown up hard and she’s works at a fast food place and she’s, a guy comes in and she sort of had, she’s had a rough go lately and she’s – and she laments to herself how people come in, you know, those little plastic boxes where people put cash in for, like, I don’t know, Ronald McDonald House or something. Right? For charity. And they put these in the fast food places.

And she’s lamenting in her mind that, you know, fast food workers are the only ones who don’t get tips. Right? And all the other food places, you know, most people, you know, you get tips. So she’s sort of angry about this and she’s thinking about how, and somebody puts some money in the little plastic thing and they kind of look at her for some sort of acknowledgement of their heroism, for putting this money that she’s not getting. Right?

And she so just gives them kind of like the smile that doesn’t mean anything. It doesn’t go to her eyes. Right? And then she, and then another guy comes in, puts a large amount, like a five or ten, and the little end of it sticking out. Right?

And so she ends up stealing it and gets caught and gets fired. So she really kind of spirals down, and then she ends up running into this guy who is – Claims to be this model scout. And she’s very – She’s very skeptical, but she’s desperate. And she eventually agrees to this $500 modeling gig for the day. Guy takes her out to the woods, and everything seems fine. It all seems in the up and up. He’s a, you know, they do pictures. It’s not, it’s all above board. That’s, you know, clothes on, the whole thing.

And then – and then – and then the guy, they do some pictures at this waterfall, and then they see somebody, or she thinks she sees somebody, and he goes to check it out, and then he never comes back.

And then she’s – And then all of a sudden, she’s being chased and basically, she’s in a situation where she’s fighting for her life, and at the end, they catch her and do terrible things to her. And then she wakes up in the same room every morning to do it all over again, and she just has no idea what’s happening to her. And that – So it’s a horror. It’s a horror story, and it’s a story about. And it turns out that she has some unique skills, given in the way she grew up. And basically, this group of men took the wrong person for once. And so that’s kind of how the story kicks off.

Debbi: That’s interesting! So sort of like a woman in jeopardy but not a victim.

Phil: Definitely not. I mean, she’s a victim. Obviously. She’s outnumbered, but not a…

Debbi: A helpless victim.

Phil: That’s for sure. I guess probably she’s a survivor, right?

Debbi: Survivor, yeah.

Phil: Yeah, she’s definitely a survivor. And she’s somebody who’s – She’s a small person. She’s petite. You know, she’s not anything. And I don’t like writing about, like, you know, special agents that can beat up anybody. That’s not interesting to me.

To me, what’s interesting is, like, okay, let’s take this young girl who has nothing, grew up in poverty, is a small person, put her in the woods with these big men that are used to doing these terrible things to women and see how she would get herself out of this. And it turns out she’s got a very interesting background.

And the story is being told in the before time and the after time because in the before time she’s in a situation where her mother goes to prison for drugs, and then she ends up with her a strange father who she hasn’t seen since she was very little. And he’s got his own issues, but he’s a somebody who’s just retired from the military and has some very special skills, but also isn’t quite right mentally.

And so he sort of puts her through all these weird, weird trials out in the woods where she vowed after these things that happened when she was younger that she would never go back to the woods. And here she finds herself back in the woods.

But a lot of these – a lot of these lessons, which she thought were the most horrible things that she had ever learned when she was a child, she’s finding them quite useful in the now time. So, anyway, yeah, so I’m excited about it. I’m looking forward to finishing it. And the first draft is all done. It’s with my editor now, but hopefully it’ll be out sometime in the winter.

Debbi: That’s great. Good to hear. How much research do you do for your novels?

Phil: It really depends on what I’m writing about, but I do tend to do a fair amount of research because I think it is really important. You probably agree it’s really important that we get things right, and obviously, we don’t know everything as writers. There’s so many things I’m writing about. Like, if I’m writing about prison, for example, I’ve got my novel REDEMPTION went heavy into prison, and I didn’t really know much about prison. You know, I’ve thankfully never been there, but my brother used to work there, so I interviewed him, you know, on all these different, like, little details about how it was.

And then I did a tremendous amount of reading about firsthand prisoner accounts and to get a feel for what it was like. And that’s essentially, I’ll come up with a storyline for what I want to write about, and then as I’m going, I’ll start doing the research, and I’ll find that really changes the plot because as I learn about these different things that, you know, you feel, you figure out, oh, that would never work because they would never do it like that because that’s not what, you know, a plumber would do or that’s not what, you know, whatever profession they are would do.

I’ll come up with a storyline for what I want to write about, and then as I’m going, I’ll start doing the research, and I’ll find that really changes the plot because as I learn about these different things that, you know, you feel, you figure out, oh, that would never work.

Debbi: Yeah, boy, I know where you’re coming from there, because I’m writing about a female Marine now, a veteran. I’ve never been in the military. What do I know? Right?

Phil: Yeah. Right.

Debbi: I start reading everything I can written by female veterans.

Phil: That’s great!

Debbi: I’m just like, whoa. Getting into their heads, and it’s like, whoa. Oh. So that’s how they think. Okay. They would do this in that situation. Oh, my.

Phil: That’s the beauty of what we do. I think, though, is that we can, because there’s no two people’s experiences in life are the same. Like, nobody. Not even – Not even twins.

Debbi: Exactly.

Phil: And so we have the opportunity to empathize with other people’s situations and then put that on the page in a way that’s – And I think the more we get it right, and then the more details and the closer it is to reality, the more I think, the more justice we, we do to those people in similar situations who can read that and look at it and say, hey, that, that reminds me of me. They’re talking about me. You know, they’re – they’re identifying with those characters and those feelings.

Debbi: Exactly.

Phil: I think that’s a wonderful thing about fiction writing, is that we, in a sense, can make the – Can make the world a more empathetic place, because everybody who reads these books can learn about what it’s like to be somebody other than themselves. And they can see all the parallels. Right?

I think that’s a wonderful thing about fiction writing, is that we, in a sense, can make the – Can make the world a more empathetic place, because everybody who reads these books can learn about what it’s like to be somebody other than themselves.

I had this conversation with my wife the other day. I said, you know, I’ve heard there’s been some talk of, like, you can’t write. Like, for example, I’m a man. I can’t write. I shouldn’t be writing a first person as a woman, you know, or I shouldn’t be writing somebody who’s a different race or a different whatever, a different sexual orientation.

But I told my wife, I was like, look, I’m an empathetic person like everybody else. I know what it’s like to feel lost – to feel left out, to feel alone, to feel ugly, to feel stupid, to feel happy, to feel all the different things like that. These are things we all have in common. And I think, as writers, we definitely have the ability to figure out how somebody else in a completely different background than us might feel in that same situation. And I think that’s one of the beautiful things I love about writing fiction anyway.

Debbi: I agree with you completely. I mean, the first screenplay I ever wrote was with a male protagonist. Had a male protagonist. And, well, that’s all I’ll say. I mean, it’s like, you can write whoever you want to write as long as you make it true to that kind of person, you know? Do your research, talk to people?

Phil: Absolutely.

Debbi: Yeah. So what do you find is the best way to build a readership?

Phil: I think that if you’re thinking strategy-wise, I mean, for people that might be listening, that are writers, I mean, I think it helps to stick in one genre. I’ve not done that. I mean, I’ve written, I think, in seven or eight different genres, and I think that helps me as a writer overall. But I don’t think it’s a good way to build a readership because not everybody reads the same type of things. Or, you know, like, my thriller readers are not necessarily going to be my literary fiction readers or my nonfiction readers. And it’s very hard to kind of build a good readership if you’re writing in different places.

So the smart thing, the smart play, I think, is to write in one genre, although I’ve, like I said, I’ve broken that rule, but, and then I think, obviously, what we talked about earlier is quality. I think that’s the, more than anything else, if you’re writing great stories that people resonate with and love, I can’t think of a better way to build a readership.

But, of course, you’ve got to have the marketing piece, so you have to be able to get people to even read it to begin with. I mean, even giving away books, which used to be much more effective than it is today, most people have, I’ve talked to a lot of readers. They have tens of thousands of books on their Kindle, and they’ve told me, they’re like, if I read nonstop from now until the time I die, I wouldn’t even read 10% of what’s on my Kindle.

Debbi: That’s right. That’s exactly right. That is the nature of the problem right there.

Phil: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, as much as I’m – I think there’s still a time and a place to do free books here and there, it’s becoming less and less effective. And ideally, it’s not really about the money or it’s not about $0.99 or free or full price at $4.99 or whatever you want to sell your books for. It’s about getting people to actually read them, you know?

And to be honest with you, I think you would probably do better paying people a dollar to read every one of your books than you would giving them away for free and have – and have – and have a tiny fraction of those people read them just because those people that actually read them, if their books were good, they’d probably go on to buy more.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah.

Phil: To be honest with you, I’d do that. Anybody wants to read my books, you know, and write a review. You can’t do that —

Debbi: I’ll give you a dollar.

Phil: Yeah. You don’t have to write a review, just read them. Here’s a dollar. But, yeah, I think that in the long run, you’d probably be better with that than just giving them out. Because I think it’s something like a very, like 10% or less actually read the free books that they get a – Yeah, it’s very low.

Debbi: I’m not surprised. I’m not at all surprised, actually. And it’s – That’s the big, big hurdle now, really, just to have your stuff read.

Phil: Yeah, it is. There’s just so much.

Debbi: It’s too available. Everything’s too available.

Phil: Yeah, you’re right. There’s a sea of books out there. Just a sea of them. And how do you, you know, find a way to stand out and it’s. It’s not an easy answer, for sure.

Debbi: Not at all. No. What are you reading these days?

Phil: I’m reading a….

Debbi: What’s on your book pile…

Phil: Let’s see. I’ve got. I’m actually reading OJ IS INNOCENT AND I CAN PROVE IT. I don’t know if you heard that.

Debbi: Yeah, I’m looking forward to reading that, actually.

Phil: It’s written by William Dear, who’s a private investigator from Texas. It’s very, very interesting. And I’m reading that partly because I’ve got a YouTube channel called Thriller Vault, where I do a lot of – I tell a lot of stories. I’m basically telling stories, but they’re mostly true stories.

So, for example, like, I did a story on OJ. He wrote a book. It was through a ghostwriter a while back called If I Did It. I did a really weird book. So I actually wrote a story on that where I’m OJ and I’m just telling the story as if I’m OJ from my perspective, you know, based on the book, you know? And so I did.

And so then I got through that. I kind of got interested in, like, oh, well, I came across the William Dear books. I started reading that. And to be honest with you, that’s made me think that it possibly might have been his son and not him, who actually committed the murders, which is wild, because I was firmly in the camp that he’s probably guilty. Like most people, by the numbers, statistically speaking, most people think that he’s guilty. But after reading the William Dear book, I’m starting to really think that it was likely his son Jason that was actually the murderer.

Debbi: Well, it’s a very interesting case.

Phil: It’s really interesting, but…

Debbi: Because as a lawyer, it kind of offends me when people are suspected of something and then people start jumping to conclusions, that that means they’re guilty of something.

Phil: Yeah.

Debbi: So to hear that this stuff is coming out is very interesting to me.

Phil: Yeah.

Debbi: What advice would you give to anyone who would like to write for a living?

Phil: I would say that’s a good question. I mean, it’s, things have really, things are really moved quickly from when … things are really different from when I started. And they’re… I don’t know what my advice would be. Let me think about this for a sec. I would say…. I would say…. I would say, go into it with…..

I would say, you want to be hopeful because, like, for me, I was very naive when I started, and I was very, like, hopeful that. And I think everybody who’s starting out, they’re like, oh, I’m going to write the greatest novel ever, and it’s going to be an instant bestseller. And, you know, we have these – we have these crazy ideas early on. But I think that as much as it’s embarrassing for me to admit that that’s kind of how I felt when I was first starting out, I think it was necessary to have that naivete because you don’t realize how hard it is.

And I think that if I didn’t have that hope in the beginning, I probably wouldn’t have, like, if you told me, hey, Phil, you’re not going to make any money till you write at least ten books. I don’t know. I mean, that’s a daunting past for somebody who’s never written a novel. So me going into it, very naive, is like, oh, well, this first book didn’t work out, but that was pretty fun, and I did a pretty good job. And we try another one, and then you’re like, oh, this one’s going to work out. Okay, well, maybe not. So then you’re ten books in. You’re like, okay, well, I’m starting to see some progress, but had I gone into it with realizing how daunting the task is.

I think I would recommend go into it with some hope and try to have fun with it. And if it’s something you enjoy doing, I think it’s something you should pursue.

So I think – I think I would recommend go into it with some hope and try to have fun with it. And if it’s something you enjoy doing, I think it’s something you should pursue. But if it’s something you don’t like, and hate. And you’re just doing this because, you know, you think this is some path to. I can’t imagine anybody thinks that, thinks that this is a path to wealth because I don’t think it is.

Debbi: It’s not.

Phil: I mean, I guess it could be for some people, but it’s more of a – it’s more of a labor of love, I think, than that. And, but if you, I think if you go into it with that and then whatever upside you get financially is great, but I wouldn’t go into it with, I’m going to be a millionaire author or something like that. I mean, it’s certainly possible, but I don’t think that. I don’t think – if money is your goal, I don’t think writing is probably the right profession for you, if money is your top goal. Now we all have to make money and live, of course. But anyway, that’s probably where I would.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah. It really is not a quick path to riches at all.

Phil: No.

Debbi: And the people who make the big money are outliers.

Phil: For sure.

Debbi: It happens. But …..

Phil: Yeah, a lot of them are very old at this point. Like they’ve been around for a very long time.

Debbi: Right. They have time they have built up.

Phil: And the trad publishers are basically holding on to their names with a death grip. Even when they die. They’re hiring new authors to write their, under their name.

Debbi: They’ve created brands.

Phil: So if you’re a new person trying. Yes, if you’re a new person trying to break into the traditional publishing game, good luck with that. It’s not the way it used to be, where there were some chances. It’s much more difficult now.

Debbi: It’s very hard. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Phil: No, that’s it. Just thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Debbi: Well, it was my pleasure, believe me. And thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate the chance to talk to you about all of this stuff because it’s very interesting.

Phil: Oh, thank you! One thing I would want to mention, if anybody who wants the audiobook, if they just email me, I think the email is in the show notes and they can just email me and ask. And as long as they have audible for the US or the UK, I can send them the audio books, the codes for it, and all they have to do is have the app. So they have to be on Audible to get it. But it’s totally free.

Debbi: Fantastic!

Phil: Anybody who emails me, I’ll be happy to send them a audiobook. That’s what my evil plan is. I give you a free audiobook and get you hooked, and then you’ll buy some.

Debbi: Well, that’s a very nice, benign, evil plan, I gotta say. So on that note, thank you so much again, Phil!

And thank you to everyone listening! Thank you for listening or for watching on YouTube, depending on what you’re doing.

And our next guest on the show will be Michael Young. In the meantime, take care and happy reading!

For ad-free episodes, bonuses and more, become a patron of the podcast right here!

View Details

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer and entrepreneur Clay Stafford.

Check out the plans for the upcoming Killer Nashville conference!

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

We also have a shop now. Check it out!

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

The transcript can be downloaded here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. Our guest today is a return visitor. Along with being a bestselling and award-winning author, he’s a poet, screenwriter, and playwright. He’s also founder and CEO of Killer Nashville. It’s my pleasure to have with me again as this week’s guest. Clay Stafford. Hi, Clay. How are you doing?

Clay: Hi, Debbi. Doing well. Absolutely wonderful.

Debbi: Wonderful. You’re looking good there.

Clay: Well, thank you.

Debbi: Looking good. It’s always nice to know. The farther we get along in age, it’s nice to know you’re still looking good at least. Shall we talk about what’s coming up at Killer Nashville then?

Clay: So you’re just leaving it wide open then, what’s coming up?

Debbi: Yeah. What’s special coming up, let’s say?

Clay: Well, every year it changes, and this year I truly do think it’s going to be the best one yet so far, and we’re coming up on – what is it – it’s the 18th year or something.

Debbi: 18th or 19th, I was going to say

Clay: Maybe 19th, but we’re getting close to that two decade point. I think the lineup … I’m currently finalizing the schedule – should have it online very quickly, and it’s going to be, I think, a wonderful year.

Debbi: That’s excellent. That’s good to hear. I happened to notice that one of your offerings was a mock crime scene, which I thought was kind of cool. Is that like a display, or do people get to interact with it?

Clay: We actually used to do that all the time, and then Dan Royce, who was the assistant director of the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, always put that on. This last year and the year before, he did not do it just because I think he’d been doing it for 15 whatever years and decided to take a break. But he has told me that he is coming back with another crime scene. It’s basically an interactive crime scene where people try to actually solve the crime, and it looks like it’s the same training methods that are used with the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation and the FBI and all of the other agencies. Each attendee who wants to try to solve the crime, the winner gets a heavily discounted attendance for next year for Killer Nashville.

But it’s a tricky business and it’s always been a lot of fun. We’ve learned over the years how to be able to handle that, because one year we just set up the crime scene and some attendees at a hotel we were at at the time came by and happened to look in, and it looks very realistic – blood and brain matter and everything all around – and they called 9-1-1. The next thing we know, we have police officers and medical people all showing up, and they’re telling us to get out of the way, and then of course, they’re going over to look at the dummy, and then I guess they kind of feel like maybe a dummy. But we’ve now set it aside so that it’s not right in front of other people who are not—

The hotel we’re using – Embassy Suites in Cool Springs, Franklin – we actually have sold out the whole hotel, so it should be all crime writers who are there, so there should not be any danger of the 9-1-1 team showing up. I’m hoping Dan will come through with us on that. He said he is working on an idea, so hopefully we’ll have that ready to go.

Debbi: Well, that’s very cool. Very interesting story too. I could just imagine what that was like.

Clay: Oh, we’ve had several of those kinds of incidents, but it’s nice that people are conscientious in calling the authorities when they see a problem.

Debbi: Yes. Just out of curiosity, have you ever considered having programming for screenwriters?

Clay: We do offer a session. Now being a screenwriter myself as well as writing in other media, the method of storytelling is pretty, pretty close. But yes, we again have a session on screenwriting this year. The Tennessee Screenwriters’ Association is actually being a sponsor of that, and so we’ve got professional screenwriters who have some pretty good Hollywood credits who are going to be giving presentations on screenwriting this year.

Debbi: That’s very cool.

Clay: What we usually do is try to have something on all of the media we use. Sometimes we even have things on poetry in the tradition of Poe and Stephen King and other people who write poetry. I don’t know if you know Stephen King wrote poetry, but he does write poetry, and so we offer various mediums from playwriting to screenwriting to poetry. We’re doing several panels on nonfiction this year and presentations as well as writing true crime. Really focusing a good deal on true crime this year because it seems to be something that a lot of people are interested in. I take a lot of polls of the people on the mailing list of what do you want this year? Because really I’m trying to create a conference that’s for the people who are coming, and true crime and memoir is – we’re having something on memoir as well – and so all those together, we pretty much cover the gamut of the mediums that are available. But like I said, the storytelling is pretty much the same. It’s the formatting and what you can offer in screenwriting as you know. For example, you know it’s just a visual and audio thing. You can’t get inside the character’s head. If you do, you’re still doing visual and audio, and so it’s a different writing than writing for a novel, and we discuss all of that.

What we usually do is try to have something on all of the media we use. Sometimes we even have things on poetry in the tradition of Poe and Stephen King and other people who write poetry.Debbi: For sure. You’re also publisher and editor-in-chief of Killer Nashville Magazine.

Clay: Yes. Very proud of that magazine and the work that everybody has done with it.

Debbi: I was going to say, how did you get started with the magazine?

Clay: You know, it was a way to continue to offer … As we’ve talked before on the show, I’ve had a pretty good career and felt it was time. Killer Nashville is my version of giving back to the community, and everybody who comes and presents is giving back to the community. The headliners and our guests of honor and all of the other people who come all come with a spirit of giving back, and so you have a meeting, a gathering that’s a once a year thing, and there’s no way to continue the education. So I decided what we need is a magazine, but we’ll do an online magazine and we’ll make it free, and it’s absolutely free to everybody. All you have to do is go to KillerNashville.com and sign up for the free magazine.

You get it, I assume, and I would say that the quality of the craft articles and also the other how-to things are on equal par with any other magazine that you could get a subscription to and have to pay for it. So it’s absolutely free and it comes to your inbox. So I encourage everybody to sign up for that if they want to. And then also this past year, I really wanted to give writers more of an opportunity to be able to publish their own works, and so it has moved slightly. It’s a craft magazine, but it’s also now a literary magazine because we’re publishing creative non-fiction, poetry, short stories, excerpts from books, different things, reviews of new books that are coming out, and if anyone wants to volunteer, we’d love to have volunteers. Just go to the KillerNashville.com site and you can volunteer, but also if you want to submit some of your writing, we would love to have people’s submissions, because we’re always looking to discover the next great voice.

Debbi: Very cool. I was going to ask about submissions, so I’m glad you brought that up.

Clay: Yeah, it’s open and there’s no fees. We really try to make sure of that. You know, having gone full circle in this business myself, the people who really need to get that foot in the door are not always the ones that can afford it. They can’t always afford to come to the conference so we have the magazine for free so that you can get some information there. They can’t always afford to enter contests, so our submission process is free. So again, it’s just a labor of love that we’re trying to help writers of all kinds who are out there to find publication and also knowledge.

Yeah, [magazine submissions are] open and there’s no fees. We really try to make sure of that. You know, having gone full circle in this business myself, the people who really need to get that foot in the door are not always the ones that can afford it.Debbi: Yes, yes. That’s great. It’s wonderful that you’re doing that. One thing I was going to bring up is, it seems like it’s harder than ever for authors to let’s say, be visible these days with the sheer plethora of books that’s coming out, and things like … well, I guess really to a certain extent, writers are very introverted usually, and have a hard time with the idea of marketing. They think marketing, they think something’s sleazy. What are your thoughts on the best way to build a fan base?

Clay: I personally think it’s through just getting people to know you, and you’ve got to have these days as you pointed out, there are many, many authors out there now, and you have to have some sort of platform in order to be able to set yourself up higher so your head is sticking above the crowd, and people are able to see that. You can do that through a bunch of numerous ways. You can do it through teaching, you can do it through interacting on social media, if you’re really good with that. You could do it just however it is that you reach out to other people. But the important thing that I think, and you know that I used to own a PR and marketing firm as well, and so the thing that I really think is most important is to just develop true, honest, sincere relationships with other people , and that builds.

The best thing we have tried over the years, and I’ve been in this business for decades – marketing and stuff – and over the years, you can take pay for ads, you can do all these other things, and the best thing you can do is just get word of mouth. It’s absolutely the best seller that you get. So write the best book that you can, and then just reach out to each individual person that you come along with, and just start building that base, and then continually put out new works so that you can maintain the interest of that base, and it sounds very simple. You go bathe three times in the river Jordan or whatever, and your leprosy will go away. It seems like a very simple thing to do. It is a simple thing to do, but it’s also something that has to be a consistent thing, and I really do think it’s the best way to build a platform.

The best thing we have tried over the years, and I’ve been in this business for decades – marketing and stuff – and over the years, you can take pay for ads, you can do all these other things, and the best thing you can do is just get word of mouth.Debbi: Yes. Consistency and doing something that works for you is another important part, I think.

Clay: Well, you can’t change your personality. We all have different things that we’re good at. I do fine talking so I do a lot of presentations such as this, but some people are not comfortable talking, but at the same time, they’re more comfortable doing blogs. And by the way, if I can offer a self-serving plug here, I do a blog as well, and offer my insights, my personal insights, and from my decades of experience working on both sides of the camera, on both sides of the publishing industry, on both sides of the stage, and share that every week with people who are interested. So if anybody wants to sign up for that free newsletter, go to claystafford.com and just sign up and see if it’s something that’s of interest to you.

Debbi: Very good. Very good.

Clay: It all comes down to helping. I think the best thing that has ever happened for me in terms of marketing is just helping other people, and I think that people respond positively too, if you’re very sincere about however you are reaching out to other people, and if it’s just helping people enjoy life, helping people live life, whatever your gift is, then sharing that I think is really that best way to build that platform.

I think that people respond positively too, if you’re very sincere about however you are reaching out to other people, and if it’s just helping people enjoy life, helping people live life, whatever your gift is, then sharing that I think is really that best way to build that platform.Debbi: That’s good to hear. I mean, you don’t have to be a particular way to be effective. You just have to kind of be your best self.

Clay: Be your true self.

Debbi: Your true self. Yes.

Clay: Be your true self and share your true self with others, and I think you’ll be surprised at the amount of love that comes back to you.

Debbi: I love that philosophy. It’s great. I mean, I agree with you completely. So what do you like on TV these days?

Clay: I am waiting two years or however long it is for Stranger Things to come back again.

Debbi: Oh my gosh. Anything else come to mind?

Clay: I spend so much time skimming television and reading and stuff. I’m just not a loyal person to anything because I’m just absorbing what’s going on around me, and there’s so many things because I have book reviews that I have to do – or let me rephrase that – that I get to do.

Debbi: That you get to do, I know.

Clay: I don’t have to do them, but I get to do them, and so I constantly have this… you know how you have this “want-to read” stack of books that are there.

Debbi: Oh yeah!

Clay: I’ve got one of those that you must read because there is a deadline of an interview that’s coming up with this, or a release of a review. So my reading and my viewing because I review films and TV shows and things as well, and mine is usually based on it, unfortunately. I came into the business because I love the business, and now the business has taken hold of me so I’m at the mercy of the business, and so it’s a completely different thing.

Debbi: I get it. I get it. Oh my gosh.

Clay: It’s completely delightful. But the fun thing is you just get to, when you have deadlines set, if you got a job that you have to read a book and then tell people what you think about it, or watch a TV show and tell people what you think about it, you live a rough life, right?

Debbi: Exactly.

Clay: But having to do that, you get to experience such an eclectic mix of authors from different styles, and I have reviewed a lot of things. I reviewed one version of The Bible that came out. I think it was the NIV version if I’m not mistaken. The editor gave it to me. A Closer Look was the magazine, and they gave me the thing. They said, would you review this new version of the Bible? And so I was like yeah, and then I made a joke, like but what if I don’t like it and the author gets angry?

Debbi: Oh boy.

Clay: So if you go to my website and look at the things that I’ve reviewed and stuff, it’s an eclectic mix. Everything from horror to romance to thriller, Southern Gothic, steampunk. It runs a gamut, but it’s a very exciting thing, and I have really an eclectic mix. And you know me – I have an attention span about this long. So if I read one book then I’m ready for a completely different kind of book, but it’s because that’s the way my mind works.

Debbi: Yeah, I can understand. I mean, I’m interested in a lot of things, though I tend to focus on one thing at a time. Let’s see. What are you reading that you’re really enjoying these days?

Clay: Once again …

Debbi: Oh dear!

Clay: Yes, it’s pretty much the same thing. I don’t have the copies of the books here, but I’ll tell you. The best thing to do is to look at the Killer Nashville Magazine and you’ll see the people I’m interviewing, because I always do the cover story on the Killer Nashville Magazine. Then also I have a monthly column for Writer’s Digest and I interview authors there, and I always read their books. So if you want to know what I’m reading, just take a peek at Writer’s Digest or Killer National Magazine or some of the other reviews. I do reviews via the Clay Stafford newsletter if you want to take a look at those. So you’ll see an eclectic mix on all of those.

Debbi: That’s very cool. I’ll have to look for your reviews. That’s great. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Clay: No, just whatever you wish to discuss.

Debbi: Well, I’ve learned a lot just in talking to you.

Clay: Time has flown by, hasn’t it?

Debbi: Just in 20 minutes I’ve learned so much about what you’re doing at Killer Nashville, which sounds so cool, and what you’re reading or trying to read or reviewing.

Clay: I just came back from a European tour and it was fabulous. I went with one objective and I came back with four objectives, which are some wonderful things that I’m hoping to do in Europe as well. I can’t really disclose what those are, but that’s my current project is looking into 2025 on some European projects that the groundwork, the foundation laid for these past three weeks in Europe.

Debbi: That’s fantastic. That’s wonderful. Great. Well, I want to thank you so much.

Clay: Absolutely.

Debbi: Was there something you wanted to say?

Clay: No, no. Thank you for having me on your show. It’s always a pleasure to be back and thanks for all you do for writers as well.

Debbi: Oh, well, you’re welcome, and I enjoy doing it. It’s the variety, you know. I get to meet a lot of people this way,

Clay: Yes, absolutely.

Debbi: So thank you again. I really appreciate your being on, and on that note, thank you to all my listeners for your interest. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review. You don’t even have to write it, just throw some stars up there, please. Also check out our Patreon page. We have bonus episodes, as well as other bonus content for supporters, and with that, I will just say our next guest will be Phil M. Williams. Until then, take care and happy reading.

Become a patron of the show right here!

View Details

This week’s ad-free episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Weldon Burge.

Check out the first interview of our Tenth Season. ~~Dear God~~ Good grief! Has it really been ten years?

And check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

You can download the transcript here! 🙂

Debbi: Hi everyone. This is the first episode of our 10th season here at The Crime Cafe. And boy, that decade sure went fast. Where did all that time go? In any case our guest today is a writer, indie publisher, and a full-time editor, although I now believe he has retired, but we can talk about that. He’s written numerous articles for various publications as a freelancer. His first novel, Harvester of Sorrow was originally published by Suspense Publishing, but is now published through his own company, Smart Rhino Publications, which focuses mostly on horror and suspense thriller books.

He has also published 17 books. That company has published 17 books, including the most recent anthology, Asinine Assassins. There’s the tongue twister for you – Asinine Assassins – which I believe is also part of a trilogy. His latest short story collection is Toxic Candy, which he is offering as a giveaway. Check the notes in this recording for his guest post and giveaway details. Alrighty then. So in any case, it is a great pleasure for me to introduce Weldon Burge as my guest today. Hey, Weldon.

Weldon: Hi. Thanks, Debbi. Good to hear you.

Debbi: It’s great to see you and great to hear you, and glad to have you on the show. So you are no longer working full-time and you are devoting yourself to writing fiction these days?

Weldon: Yes. Pretty much.

Debbi: As well as publishing.

Weldon: If a nonfiction job comes up, I will take it, but I’m focusing primarily on fiction at this point.

Debbi: Yeah, yeah. I reached a point where I pretty much said, okay, that’s all I’m going to do.

Weldon: Well, I was working for an educational consulting firm, so I was dealing with PhDs every day, and then I’d come home and I have to get into fiction because I’d had enough brainy stuff all day long. So now that I’m retired, I’m going full force into the fiction and enjoying it. I love it.

Debbi: Awesome. That’s great. That’s a wonderful thing. So how do you structure your writing schedule?

Weldon: I don’t. I mean, I’m constantly writing. I’m constantly writing notes, bits of dialogue that come into my head I will write down. So as far as the schedule goes, it’s just whenever I have time to do something, I’ll do it. But I have things churning in my head constantly, so getting something on paper is something I do all day long. Ideas come for me and I try to work them out in my head, and I have notebooks everywhere, notes everywhere, and when I have time to sit down and do it, I do it.

I’m constantly writing notes, bits of dialogue that come into my head I will write down. So as far as the schedule goes, it’s just whenever I have time to do something, I’ll do it.Debbi: Yeah. Notes everywhere. I think that’s kind of like a writer’s life. Notes everywhere.

Weldon: Yes, that’s right. That’s right.

Debbi: What was it that inspired you to create the Ezekiel Marrs character, and what are your plans for the series?

Weldon: Okay. Actually there’s one chapter in the book that has nothing to do with Ezekiel Marrs. That actually spun the tale for me. There’s a section in the book where a teenage couple find a body in the woods, and that was the very first thing that came into my head, and everything kind of spread from there. Ezekiel Marrs was first called Simon something, and it went through umpteen different names, and I liked the Ezekiel because of the biblical parlance there and then Marrs because it’s out there. So I like the idea of that name, and it’s fairly unique, which was the other thing I was looking for. The character kind of grew out from himself. It was kind of interesting how that occurred. I always wanted to do police procedurals. I have always been interested in that sort of thing, you know, CSI kind of stuff, so it was just kind of a no-brainer to go in that direction for that book.

Debbi: What makes you interested in procedurals particularly, do you think?

Weldon: I’m not sure actually. I really hit into Ed McBain’s books back in the eighties, I guess it was, and I’ve read every single one of them. I think there’s 50-some of those books. The Steve Carella character, I really enjoyed that character because it was a policeman who was a no-nonsense type of guy, very structured and very family-like, and I like that character, and I kind of tailored Ezekiel Marrs with that character in mind. So that’s kind of got me into it. And then of course, the CSI shows and so forth, which are totally unbelievable, but I think they’re cool. So I was looking at all of that. When I was doing the Harvester of Sorrow, I wanted to make it as real as possible, so I talked to cops. I actually did a police academy here in my hometown just to get a feel for what cops are doing, and that helped considerably when I was writing the book.

Debbi: That’s interesting. You’re in Delaware, correct?

Weldon: Yes.

Debbi: And there’s a cop academy right in your hometown?

Weldon: It’s in Newark, Delaware, and it’s a community type of thing. I think there were maybe 20 of us, and it was interesting because we got to go out and do things with the cops, ride alongs and that sort of thing, and it’s very illuminating to see what actually goes on. I think anyone who’s writing crime fiction should do this sort of thing to get out there and see hands on how cops do things.

Debbi: Yeah, absolutely. It’s an education for sure. What made you decide to start a publishing company?

Weldon: I’ve always enjoyed working with other writers. We have a very good community of writers here in Delaware, Northern Delaware, and I enjoy working with all of them, and I’ve always had in mind to do anthologies because of that. When I started the company, I had anthologies in mind. So I did the Zippered Flesh Trilogy, I did the Assassins Trilogy, several others and I enjoyed all of that. I mean, I’ve worked with probably nearly a hundred writers at this point, very diverse in their abilities, and I’ve probably learned more from them than they’ve learned from me, which is kind of cool, and all of that. I mean, I enjoy not only working with the writers, but teaching them. I’ve been doing a lot of workshops and that sort of thing recently.

I’ve always enjoyed working with other writers. We have a very good community of writers here in Delaware, Northern Delaware, and I enjoy working with all of them, and I’ve always had in mind to do anthologies because of that.I worked with the library system here in northern Delaware, particularly the Kirkwood Library in Milton. We’ve been setting up an author series. We do a monthly thing now. We just did one on book covers before that. We did a panel discussion on self-publishing. The one next, well, actually the end of this month is about structuring novels. So I’ve lined up a number of writers in each of these specific categories and had them come in and teach these classes. So it’s becoming really a rolling ball kind of a thing, and more and more people are coming. The last thing, we had 43 people there, and the library was ecstatic that we were able to get 43 people in one room. So I love that kind of thing when we can do that sort of a community thing.

Debbi: That is such a great example of what authors should be doing, focusing on the local market.

Weldon: Yes, and if you look at it from a marketing perspective, my name is getting out there because of this material that I’m doing, and the same with the authors that I’m pulling in to do the teaching. So every time we go out there, we have setups for our books. The end of this month, I have someone who’s doing novel structuring. She’ll have her books there as well so it’s not only a teaching, but it’s a selling and marketing opportunity for the writers. So that’s very important to these folks. I find that teaching these classes is a far better way to market your books than say, signings. You have a signing and people come in the door and they just go right around you. They know it’s a hard sell, but if they’re learning something and say, oh, there’s something cool about this book, they’re more likely to buy it. So I think it’s very popular with the writers and very popular with the readers.

I find that teaching these classes is a far better way to market your books than say, signings. You have a signing and people come in the door and they just go right around you. They know it’s a hard sell, but if they’re learning something and say, oh, there’s something cool about this book, they’re more likely to buy it.Debbi: Absolutely. Very smart. What’s your process for planning, organizing and publishing the anthologies?

Weldon: Usually I talk with some writers that I know in the area. There used to be a group here called the Written Remains Writers Guild, which was dissolved in the past few years, but I worked a good deal with them too. The anthologies, in fact, that we published, were in tandem with that group so it worked out very well. But what was your question again?

Debbi: Oh, just wanted to know what your process was for putting these anthologies together. How did you get the authors? How do you organize everything?

Weldon: Well, when I started out the whole … I come from a marketing background, so I knew that the best way for a new publisher to get going is with an anthology, because you automatically have 20-plus writers who are all going to hit their material on social media. So for me, it’s free advertising. So it’s a good opportunity for them to build their portfolios. But it’s also good marketing for me to get the book out. So with the first anthologies, the Zippered Flesh horror thing, it’s a body horror thing and it sold very well. It was actually up for two Bram Stoker awards, and that’s unusual, very unusual for a first time publisher. That really exploded the whole thing so I was very lucky to have that anthology. I think if it was a one-off just by me, a self-published novel, it would not have had the impact that it did.

I come from a marketing background, so I knew that the best way for a new publisher to get going is with an anthology, because you automatically have 20-plus writers who are all going to hit their material on social media.So working with those 20-plus writers, what I did is I solicited some name writers, Graham Masterton. I managed to get him and who else? Joe Lansdale, I’ve landed for one. My thinking is that if we have a name author in the anthology that will draw people in. A lot of the other writers are just excellent writers that haven’t had a chance to get out there, so it’s been pretty cool to have someone say, I bought the book for the Graham Masterton story, but I really like the one by Sean Meeks. I never heard of the guy before, and I need to look at his books because I really liked what he wrote. And that’s the kind of thing that I’m looking to do with all this material. I love having people pick up books and read authors that they’ve not known before. And that’s one of the joys actually of doing an anthology is hearing people grab onto other authors that they’ve not met or read before. For me, that’s a big plus to be able to help writers in that way.

Debbi: I’m with you there. Totally. I totally agree. That’s fantastic. It’s a great approach. I also noticed that you have done a lot of nonfiction as well, haven’t you?

Weldon: Yeah, I actually started as a journalist. I come from a journalism background. I wrote a lot for newspapers and magazines, and one of my things – this freaks people out – I was a garden writer for a long time. I wrote for Organic Gardening, Fine Gardening, that sort of thing. So how do you make the shift from gardening to body horror? People are like, where did that come from? I always enjoyed reading horror, and I always enjoyed gardening and always enjoyed doing album reviews and book reviews and all that sort of thing, and feature stories for night newspapers. I was fairly diverse in what I was able to do, and I’ve been doing it since I was 16, so it’s just something I love to do. I’m a born writer, I think. It’s just where I’m at.

So nonfiction was a good start. It kind of gave me the learning experience of working with editors, especially with newspaper editors where you have to get something in like this. You can’t be sitting on something. So that taught me how to get material out in a great way and be able to self edit to make sure whatever I put in front of the editor was already ready to go. I think a lot of the younger writers that I’ve come across in my job in particular have not quite learned that yet. They’re on their way, but it takes a long time to get into that groove, I think. But getting into the groove, starting early and writing as much as I could, I think it helped a great deal for all that I’m doing right now.

Debbi: Absolutely. Journalism is a great background. I was a journalism major and did a little bit of journalism years ago.

Weldon: I would tell people if they ever have a chance to edit to do so, because that’s one of the best learning experiences that I’ve ever had is working with other writers, and figuring out how to work with them to bring out the best product. Some writers have a problem with that because they think you’re attacking them. There’s something bad about that and it really isn’t. The editor wants the same thing that the writer does, which is to have a good product, to have a good story or an article, and learning how to do that, I think helps a lot as a publisher, but also as a writer.

Debbi: Yes. You do have to learn to accept constructive criticism.

Weldon: Yes. Yes.

Debbi: I don’t understand people who feel precious about their words. So precious, they can’t …

Weldon: There have been – not many, but there have been a few that have submitted material to the anthologies where I had to reject it because they were not willing to work with me. One fellow in particular who had actually published before sent me this story and it was littered with the grammatical errors and misspellings, and I went through with him to fix that, and he had a problem with some of the changes I made, and after three drafts I finally gave up. But the thing was, if it was a new writer that I was not familiar with and had not worked with before, I would’ve rejected the thing straight out based on what I saw. It’s not unusual for me to reject a story before I even finish the first page, based on misspellings and grammatical errors. I know right off the bat that this is going to be a hard writer to work with.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah.

Weldon: But with this guy, I published one of his stories before and it was excellent, and I couldn’t figure out why this was so bad, and he wasn’t willing to fix it, so …

Debbi: Oh my gosh.

Weldon: Yeah. It was just kind of weird. It was funny because afterward he didn’t take offense to it. He just didn’t understand what I was looking for, I think, so it was more of a misunderstanding than anything else. And he submitted things beyond that, which I also rejected, unfortunately. But he knew what I was looking for after that and knew that if he sent something to me, I was going to be generous and fairly open-minded with what he submitted. I try to do that with everyone when I do that.

The other thing is that I always answer. When someone sends me something, I think it’s courteous to give them some kind of response. Usually I try to be positive with it and tell them exactly what is wrong that made me reject it, and also I would tell them if you fix this or that, you can send it out again and someone else might pick it up because it might be good writing. It just doesn’t fit what I’m looking for at that moment.

Debbi: Yeah. It’s interesting. In screenwriting, you’re always getting notes from people, whether it’s people who are reading to criticize your work, a producer, a financier, whoever. And if you can’t learn to sit with that note and figure out what it is they’re really saying, you’re not going to get anywhere.

Weldon: I think that the main problem is the misunderstanding of what you’re looking for.

Debbi: Precisely.

Weldon: Another story. The first anthology I mentioned was The Zippered Flesh, which is a body horror thing. And I got this story and I’m reading it, and it was a romance story. I’m reading it thinking, God, there has to be like a third arm or something in here somewhere. And by the time I finished the story, there was nothing. It was just a romance story. It was well written, but had nothing to do with the theme, and so I went online and onto Amazon and checked out this author, and sure enough, she was a romance writer. So why would a romance writer send something about body horror that’s titled Zippered Flesh is beyond me.

Debbi: I don’t know.

Weldon: I think it was just a shotgun approach. You know how some people just throw something out there hoping it will land somewhere, and that’s just a waste of time for me, and even more a waste of time for the writer.

Debbi: Absolutely. Absolutely. You have to know what the publication you’re pitching is looking for.

Weldon: It amazes me that people don’t do that.

Debbi: It does seem obvious, doesn’t it?

Weldon: And I can guarantee you, if I saw that author again, I wouldn’t read it.

Debbi: Oh, interesting. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in writing for a living?

Weldon: Ooh, that’s a good question. Be patient, be prolific. I mean, you have to be cranking this stuff out constantly. A lot of the writers I know who write crime fiction believe in writing series, and you’re one of them actually. Series seems to be the way to be successful in this particular genre. That’s kind of what I’m striving for. I think the main thing is to continue to churn things out, even if you’re not selling. The more you churn out, the better it will be. Ray Bradbury said that if you write a story every week, you write 52 stories a year, something’s going to sell. If not, you’re going to at least learn the craft as you move along. So I think you have to keep at the wheel, keep going at the thing, and you might not be successful, but you definitely won’t be successful if you don’t do that.

Be patient, be prolific. I mean, you have to be cranking this stuff out constantly. A lot of the writers I know who write crime fiction believe in writing series … Series seems to be the way to be successful in this particular genre.

Debbi: Absolutely. You have to write in order to be a writer.

Weldon: You have to pay your dues.

Debbi: Just keep writing. Pay your dues. Exactly. What authors have most inspired your own writing?

Weldon: I mentioned Ed McBain earlier. I really like his stuff. Let’s see who else. That’s a good question. I’m trying to think about who I’ve read recently. I like the Thomas Harris stuff, obviously – Red Dragon, that sort of thing. I’m just blanking out right now. As you can see, I have a huge library of stuff back here, and …

Debbi: Yeah, yeah.

Weldon: You caught me. I’m sorry.

Debbi: That’s okay. Well, Ed McBain is a great example.

Weldon: I loved his stuff. And it’s interesting because he started writing these books back in the fifties, I think it was way back when. I think his last book was in the eighties. And the characters pretty much didn’t change. Even though the years went by, Steve Carella, the lead character didn’t change all that much, which I thought was interesting that McBain could keep that continuity and still make it interesting over those decades. I mean, that’s just amazing to me that he is able to do that.

Debbi: Yeah. That is pretty remarkable. A lot of times, he stays …

Weldon: He wrote under pseudonyms as well. Evan Hunter, I think is his actual name. He wrote a number of other things. He’s churning them out left and right. Jeffery Deaver. I’ve read a lot of Jeffery’s stuff. He’s another one that I don’t know how he does it. He must write two or three books a year. I did meet – I think you might have met him too at C3.

Debbi: Yes, yes.

Weldon: C3 conference. I talked to him briefly, and it sounds like he writes constantly. Even at the conference, he would pull out his laptop or whatever and turn away until someone started to bug him. Jonathan Maberry, I just met recently too, and he’s the same way. If he has a minute, he pops open the laptop and works until someone comes along and he starts talking to them. So every opportunity they have, they write so you know that whatever it is is going on in their head constantly and they’re chomping at the bit to get something down on paper or on the computer.

Debbi: Well, I always find it remarkable when people can just switch like that from being with other people or writing and being with somebody in and out. That kind of flow.

Weldon: I think a lot of it is subconscious. It’s always working in the background. . and that’s just a writer thing, I think.

Debbi: I have actually done writing just in airports with paper and pen. It’s kind of like, okay, I’m here. I’m bored. I’ll just write something.

Weldon: I’m sure this happened to you too. You’ll have something in your head when you wake up in the middle of the night and you grab for paper or something to write it down. I used to keep a notebook right next to the bed, and the problem with that was I’d wake up and write something real quick and then fall back to sleep. And then in the morning I look at the notebook and it’s gibberish. I have no idea what it is, and I think a lot of writers are that way too. The other thing is, in the shower, things come to your head when you’re in the shower and unless you’re great on the wall, you’re not going to remember it.

Debbi: I know. Yeah. That’s happened to me quite a bit. Let’s see. Tell us a little bit aboutToxic Candy, your giveaway.

Weldon: Ah, okay. Actually, I have a copy here. I tried to pull together a diverse group of tales. I think there are 14 stories in here. I was looking to do the crime fiction. I have science fiction, a lot of fantasy stuff. There’s a lot of different things in here, and these are all stories that I’ve had published over the years. So there are sea monsters in here. It’s all kinds of stuff. So I had fun writing and pulling it together, but it kind of reflects what I’ve written for the past 20-plus years.

Debbi: Sounds like it has a variety of genres.

Weldon: Yeah. Well, it’s says right here, tales of suspense, fantasy and horror.

Debbi: That covers quite a bit

Weldon: That’s it. If you’re living in Delaware, you’ll find a lot of references to Delaware in here, and people seem to enjoy that too.

Debbi: That’s cool. Very cool. I love when you can bring in details of a place.

Weldon: Actually, Rehoboth Beach is mentioned in two different stories. One is with the sea monsters, and the other one’s about the haunted house on the boardwalk, so they were really fun to write.

Debbi: That’s great. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Weldon: Well, this is the Harvester of Sorrow book right here. I’m working on the sequel, mainly doing notes right now. I’m also writing a paranormal. It’s a paranormal police procedural. It’s kind of a mouthful, but I’m working on that right now, and I’m hoping that’ll be the start of another series. The plan right now is to do the Harvester series, the Ezekiel Marrs stuff, as well as the new series, and doing two books a year. That might be a little much, I don’t know, but that’s the plan right now so we’ll see how that goes.

Debbi: Well, congratulations on what you’ve done so far.

Weldon: Thank you.

Debbi: It’s really fantastic, I think. I really appreciate your being on today. Thank you.

Weldon: Oh, thank you. It was great.

Debbi: Awesome. Well, on that note, I will just say thank you to all my listeners as well. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review. It helps. Also, check out our Patreon page where we have ad-free episodes and bonus content for patrons. On that note, I’ll just say take care. Our guest on the next episode will be Clay Stafford. Take care and happy reading until next time. Be seeing you.

Weldon: Thanks, Debbi.

Consider becoming a patron here!

View Details

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Charles Salzberg.

Check out our final regular episode of Season Nine!

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

We also have a shop now. Check it out!

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

The transcript can be downloaded here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. This is the last regular episode of the ninth season of the Crime Café. I cannot believe that I’ve been doing this for nine years, honest to God. So, in any case, our guest tonight is a person who has worked as a journalist and he is a novelist, who has written for a variety of magazines, including Esquire, GQ, Elle and others. He’s also written book reviews. He gets paid to do that. I have to find out about that.

Charles: Not much. Not much.

Debbi: Not much?

Charles: Not much.

Debbi: Well, you get paid something. That’s nice. His series though is the Henry Swann Detective series, which is really cool, I think, at least based on what I’ve read. He has written true crime and a variety of nonfiction books, including a book about Soupy Sales, which I have to ask about. He’s a writing teacher and mentor, as well as the founding member of the New York Writers’ Workshop. It’s my pleasure to have with me, Charles Salzberg.

Charles: Thank you so much for having me.

Debbi: Oh, sure. It is my pleasure, believe me. I just started actually your latest Man on the Run. Wow. What a great opening. You already have me hooked. I love your style. It has a kind of a chatty feel to it. Is this the way you write generally?

Charles: Yes. Almost all the stuff I write is in first person from different people, and I just like that conversational style.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah. I’m with you there. Yeah. I like that. What inspired you to write the Henry Swann Series?

Charles: It was inspired in the beginning by spite. I was in an MFA program at Columbia, and I had to have a manuscript to get in, and I chose this teacher who said he read the manuscript – I’m not sure he did. It got me into the program and he said to me, do you know how to tell a story? And I said, yes, I know how to tell a story. He said, well, you don’t tell stories. This book is written like Nabokov and Philip Roth, in a style like that. You should read Chekhov. I was an English major. I had read Chekhov. Anyway, I quit after two weeks and I thought, well, this guy doesn’t think I can write plot. I’m going to write a book that’s very plotted, and those would be detective novels.

So the first Swann book was called Swann’s Last Song because I had no intention of writing crime novels after that, or revisit Swann. It had a very interesting history because I wrote it and I sent it to agents and editors, and they all said we love this, but we can’t publish it with this ending. The problem with the ending for them was the detective follows all the clues, and in the end, the murder has nothing to do with any of the clues he followed. It was totally random. So the reader finds out what happened, but the detective who’s really a skip tracer had nothing to do with solving the crime. And they said you’re going to disappoint detective/crime lovers because they need the detective to solve the crime. And so I said, well, that’s not what this book is about. I was much younger then, and so I said if you’re not going to publish it this way, I’m going to put it away and forget about it and go onto the next thing.

About 20 years later, I happened to stumble across the manuscript and I read it and I thought, this is pretty good. Maybe things have changed. I had been published much more in those 20 years in nonfiction, and I gave it to an editor and he said, I love this book but we can’t publish it with this ending. I said, well, what if I change the ending? And they said yes. So in 20 years, I learned how to sell out essentially, and again, I had no intention of writing another crime novel, but it was nominated for a Shamus Award for Best First PI Novel. I didn’t even know what a Shamus Award was, and when I lost, I got really pissed off and I said, I’m going to keep writing these things until I win something. So that’s how it happened.

It was really inspired by a magazine article I wrote about a fellow by the name of Sidney Weinstein, who was what was called a skip tracer. Skip tracers are, to me, even lower than the private detectives. They’re the ones that repo cars and they find husbands who have run away from their wives and lost people, and I kind of patterned it after this guy that I interviewed.

Debbi: That’s fascinating. It’s fascinating how much spite played into your decision to write crime.

Charles: Then I found that I liked it. After I got started and did a couple of books, I found this is pretty good. This is fun.

Debbi: It’s awesome. What do you enjoy most about crime writing?

Charles: The character. I’m really big into character. I don’t write typical murder mysteries.

Debbi: I love that.

Charles: Occasionally there are murders in the books, but only one did I write, Canary in the Coal Mine. That was kind of like a murder mystery. I’m much more interested in other crimes, smaller crimes, crimes that I think that we can identify with a little bit more.

I don’t write typical murder mysteries. … I’m much more interested in other crimes, smaller crimes, crimes that I think that we can identify with a little bit more.

Debbi: I was going to say you can do all sorts of things with a crime novel. They don’t have to involve murder, but do you plan to write more crime novels?

Charles: I do. I’m working on one now.

Debbi: I was going to say, what are you working on?

Charles: I’m working on one with a little bit of a different twist, because the main character has a touch of ESP and no one in the world knows he has it. He’s embarrassed by it; he doesn’t use it. The only person who knows he has it is his best friend, and his best friend comes to him one day and says my college-age daughter is missing, and I’d like you to help me find her, if you have this power, using it. And so reluctantly to help his friend, he has to tap into this ability he has. Very reluctantly though.

I’m working on one with a little bit of a different twist, because the main character has a touch of ESP and no one in the world knows he has it. He’s embarrassed by it; he doesn’t use it.

Debbi: Reluctant why?

Charles: It scares him a little. It makes him different. He’s afraid of it. He wants to be just like everyone else, and so he’s shunned it over the years.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah. That’s interesting. You wouldn’t want to over-rely on that, but at the same time, it adds an interesting twist to the whole detective genre.

Charles: Yes. Well, that actually comes also from a book I was going to do with a woman who had that ability out in California, and she worked with police departments. I went out there and interviewed her, and I found out how she does it and how it works for her, and this stuck in my mind for years, and I thought one day, maybe I’ll use that, so I decided to.

Debbi: That’s really cool. You’ve also written a lot of nonfiction, including a book about Soupy Sales? How did that come about?

Charles: Well, that’s quite a story too. I was approached by an agent friend of mine, and Soupy was a client. They already had the book deal, and they needed someone to work on it with him, to write it with him, really to write it. I had always been a fan growing up, so it was kind of exciting, but I said yes before I met him. And then when I met him, very nice man, but I think he was suffering from Parkinson’s and maybe he had had a stroke and he could hardly speak. Try writing a memoir with someone who can’t speak. I should have met him before. I would’ve found that out, but I just trusted the agent, so I had to rethink the entire book. So instead of just interviewing him and getting stories from him, I had to deal with it as I would a magazine article, and I found people that worked with him over the years, worked on the shows with him, and got stories from them about him. The book was really fun to do, and I spent time with him, but unfortunately I didn’t get him in his best years.

I was approached by an agent friend of mine, and Soupy [Sales] was a client. They already had the book deal, and they needed someone to work on it with him, to write it with him, really to write it. I had always been a fan growing up, so it was kind of exciting …

Debbi: Oh, that’s such a shame.

Charles: A very nice man though, and never made a lot of money doing what he did, too.

Debbi: Huh, interesting. because I remember him well. I remember he did the whole pie-in-the-face thing, didn’t he?

Charles: Yes, he did, and it became a big thing. People like Frank Sinatra would go on the show to get hit in the face with a pie.

Debbi: Right, right. He was something. How much research do you do for novels?

Charles: Well, I’m really lazy and I do as little as possible, but sometimes I do have to do research. It can be fun, depending what it’s for. Research for me is something that happens often before I even decide to write a book. So, for instance, Man on the Run, the character in that book, which he’s actually a character in Second Story Man. That’s the first time he appears. That book was inspired by an essay I read in the New Yorker years and years ago about a master thief, a master burglar. I think all writers have this. It kind of sticks in your mind, certain stories. I didn’t know that I would eventually use it in a book of mine, but I was looking for something to write about, and I thought maybe it’s time to do a book with a master burglar, and then I did have to do research.

I’m really lazy and I do as little as possible, but sometimes I do have to do research. It can be fun, depending what it’s for. Research for me is something that happens often before I even decide to write a book.

Every crime writer, if you look at their browsing history, Debbi, we’re all scared to death that one day someone’s going to look at our browsing history and see all the stuff we’ve had to read, had to research.

Debbi: Oh, yeah. I think about that a lot. I type something and it’s like, does anybody else know I’m doing this? What would they think?

Charles: It’ll keep us on the straight and narrow.

Debbi: There you go. Yeah. We won’t really get on their radar unless we act on it in a weird way.

Charles: Right, exactly.

Debbi: The thing you’re working on now, is that a continuation of that character?

Charles: No. No. These are totally new characters, the one I’m working on now.

Debbi: Totally new characters. Okay. So do you think you’ll extend the series that you have now?

Charles: You know, I never thought of it as a series in the first place. Second Story Manwas written as a one-off. I don’t want to spoil the ending, but it ended and then I wrote another book called Canary in the Coal Mine, which had nothing to do with it. And then when I was kind of thinking about what I wanted to work on next, I started to think, well, what happens to that character, Francis Hoyt, after Second Story Man ends? And so I started Man on the Run really to find out what happens to him afterwards, because I don’t plot anything. I don’t know what’s going to happen on the next page, much less the next chapter, so it’s kind of a revelation for me writing novels. I find out what’s happening not much before the reader will find out, and so it was really just a matter of curiosity. I wanted to know what happened to Francis Hoyt.

I don’t plot anything. I don’t know what’s going to happen on the next page, much less the next chapter, so it’s kind of a revelation for me writing novels.

Debbi: Wow. I’m always amazed by people who can just sit down and write without plotting it out with any kind of outline at all, not knowing where they’re going.

Charles: Yeah. I don’t know where it comes from. It’s worked. It has always worked for me.

Debbi: I think that’s fantastic. That’s great. I wish I could do that. I should probably try it just to see if I could do it.

Charles: I think you can, and for me, what it does, it keeps it fresh. You know, there’s Jeffery Deaver, the writer, Jeffery Deaver. I interviewed him once.

Debbi: He’s great.

Charles: He does an outline of like 120 pages.

Debbi: I can’t do that.

Charles: No. Not only wouldn’t I do it, Debbi, but I don’t think I’d write the book if I did the outline, because I would know everything that was going to happen, and it wouldn’t be fresh for me, and I’d be afraid that it wouldn’t be fresh to the reader. So I admire someone who can do that, but it would inhibit me from writing the book as opposed to helping me.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah. You can get a little too confining with one’s outline. For me anyway, because I need to have that room, that wiggle room to consider another option.

Charles: Exactly. Exactly.

Debbi: As long as I’m reaching certain emotional touch points here and there, in terms of solving the mystery, then I feel like I’ve done my job.

Charles: Exactly.

Debbi: I don’t know. How would you describe in terms of genre, what you write? What sub-genre is it?

Charles: You know, it’s a good question because people ask me. I consider myself a crime writer, not a mystery writer, not a detective writer. A crime writer, and it allows me to explore anything that has a crime in it. One of the Swann books, the second one Swann Dives In, you don’t know what the crime is till halfway through the book, and by the end of the book, you’re not even sure there was a crime. Those are the kind of things that sort of challenge me and make it fun to write.

Debbi: That’s fantastic. You are really making it intriguing in terms of what you write that now I really want to read all your books.

Charles: That would be nice.

Debbi: I hope everybody listening is feeling the same way, because that just sounds wonderful. I mean, to not be stuck with certain preconceptions about what it is you’re supposed to be writing, sounds like, to me, sounds like your approach.

Charles: It works for me. I mean, when I was a kid, I always wanted to be a novelist. I thought of myself as a literary novelist, and so now I’ve sort of melded the two because I consider them to be literary novels. Some of the best crime writing is very literary. There are some writers now who are writing crime, who are just really fine writers.

Debbi: Yes, absolutely. That is so true. So is there anything you’d like to add before we finish up?

Charles: No, I think you pretty much covered it. I teach writing and I really enjoy that, and I think it makes me a better writer too, teaching, and I’ve had some really successful students too, and it’s fun for me to do. It’s even more fun now that we have Zoom, because I don’t have to leave the apartment to teach.

I teach writing and I really enjoy that, and I think it makes me a better writer too, teaching, and I’ve had some really successful students too, and it’s fun for me to do.

Debbi: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Isn’t it great? I mean, working on stuff like that, teaching other people. When I’ve done mentorships with people from my college, I always feel like that’s some of the best stuff I’ve ever done, just relating with them and so forth.

Charles: I’ll tell you a quick story. This was years ago, a friend of mine who was a magazine editor called me up and he said, I have an assistant and she’s really smart, and she could use some writing lessons. Can she take your class? And I said, sure. She comes in the first class – very pretty, blonde, tall, maybe 23, 24. The second class she brings in a piece to the workshop, and it’s an essay about her first day at work. And she called the essay “The Devil Wears Prada.” That was Lauren Weisberger. She had no sense of writing a book, and she kept bringing in these essays about her working for Vogue, for Anna Wintour. I kept telling her she had a book, she had a book. Finally after a year, she had about a hundred pages, and she called me up and said, what do I do? I said, find an agent – which she did – and we know the rest. If you get a copy of her book, The Devil Wears Prada, you’ll see in the acknowledgements she wrote, if you don’t like this book, blame Charles Salzberg.

And after that, it’s really interesting. I still do. I get calls or emails from young women – because she always mentions me on her website or whatever – wanting to get into classes with me, thinking that somehow I can make them into the next Lauren Weisberger, which I cannot.

Debbi: No, that’s up to the writer.

Charles: Yes, absolutely.

Debbi: Nonetheless, having a good teacher is a wonderful way to start. I really admire what you’re doing, so thank you so much for being here today and talking to us. This has been a real pleasure.

Charles: Thank you. A pleasure for me too.

Debbi: Thank you. And with that, let’s see if I can replace myself. Hey, I did it without any problems. What do you know? On that note, I would like to thank everyone from the bottom of my heart. Everyone who has supported this podcast on Patreon. Everyone who has listened; everyone who has left a review. Thank you so much.

The next time you hear this voice, unless you watch my YouTube channel, it will be the first episode of the 10th season of the Crime Cafe. It’ll be the next time you hear me on the Crime Cafe anyway, because I actually have another podcast. It’s a podcast about film noir, but that’s another subject. Anyhow, in the meantime, until the next episode, take care and happy reading.

For bonus episodes and more, become a Patreon supporter!

View Details

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Len Joy.

Get to know Len and his books, as well as his interest in athletics and how it has inspired his writing.

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

We also have a shop now. Check it out!

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

The transcript can be downloaded here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest this week is the award-winning author of several novels, including one that I read called Dry Heat, which I really liked a lot. Like many authors, he started off in another career before he started writing. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest Len Joy. Len, hi.

Len: Hi. Thank you very much for having me. I never thought of myself as a crime writer, but as I look at my work, I do have a lot of crime in there, so happy to be part of this.

Debbi: Absolutely. Well, I am glad to have you on, that’s for sure. Now I finally have you . Okay. I wanted to ask you particularly about Dry Heat, because I loved it so much. What was it that inspired you to write this novel?

Len: Well, this was one of the few novels I think I wrote that was inspired by a specific incident. In my earlier career, I had an engine remanufacturing company in Phoenix with my brother-in-Law. We ran that for almost 20 years. It was a down and dirty, gritty, manufacturing operation. We had about 200 employees at any given time, and I had a very trusted employee, a woman and her husband that worked for me in the office. Their son, who I knew, I think he had just turned 18 and he was out hot rodding on the interstate on a Friday night, and not sure whatever happened, but they basically were dueling with another car and somebody in the vehicle he was in shot at the other car.

Didn’t hit anybody, but it turned out that the other vehicle was driven by an off-duty policeman, and he was arrested. He was the only adult -18 years old – and the other three were underage, and he was charged with attempted murder of a police officer, which is a serious crime. I mean, it’s more serious penalties, and even though nobody was hurt, I don’t believe he was the one shooting, but nevertheless, he was arrested. I followed this with obviously the parents as a father, and I had a kid about the same age as Tim, and instead of going to college, he’s going to trial, and they have this lawyer, and they’re going to a pretrial conference. They’re going to fight this. I think they have a good case. They come back in the afternoon and they tell me that they basically presented him with the alternative of if you lose at trial, you could go to jail for 20 years, or you can take a deal and you go to prison for three, and they took the deal.

But that just stuck with me, not just for the kid, but for the parents to have to make that decision in an instant, and it just changes the whole direction of your life. That was 20 years ago, and I started writing after that, and it was just something. I followed their story and he went to prison. He came out. I stayed in touch with his mother. My business ended in 2003, so I was no longer in Phoenix, but it was a story that interested me. And after I’d written a couple other novels, I decided not to use that story, per se. I mean, his story is his story, but that incident inspired me, I guess, in a way, to try to write about that kind of event where you’re heading in one direction and something happens and your whole life changes.

And I like sports, so I always make it somehow an athlete involved. But that was the inciting incident, I guess, that got me to write up the book. The story is totally different, but I have shared it with my employee and with Tim who was the inspiration for it, and they liked the book so I’m satisfied and happy.

Debbi: That’s great. Yeah. That’s great. Wow, it all just seems so unfair and circumstantial, and yet this person just dealt with it.

Len: Yeah. I mean, you shouldn’t be playing with guns, but cops shouldn’t probably be driving up and down harassing people either. So it was …

Debbi: Did he know there was a gun there? I mean, all those things.

Len: Yeah.

Debbi: Well. So tell me about your other books. How would you describe them generally? What genre?

Len: That’s a good question on genre. Whenever I try to find it, I can’t. It’s like commercial, literary fiction, something, but there’s the basic premise if I find a theme. Mostly I’m writing about people, mostly former athletes, just because that’s something I can write about that I know, but it’s their life after the cheering stops. In Better Days as an example, a high school basketball star Darwin Burr wins his state championship for a small town in Illinois. And when the story opens 20 years later, he’s been coasting on that glory, if you will, for all those years, not really taking charge of his life, and the incidents in the story that forced him to get back in the game and take action.

Mostly I’m writing about people, mostly former athletes, just because that’s something I can write about that I know, but it’s their life after the cheering stops.

In American Past Time, the first book I wrote, that was in some degree inspired by I watch baseball a lot, and they had a pitcher for the Chicago Cubs who had a perfect game going right to the last pitch, literally, and the umpire on a close call called it a ball, so he lost his perfect game. He walked the runner, and I was like, all right, I’m going to use that somehow. I wrote a story about a minor league baseball player who does pitch a perfect game, but it injures his arm and he never makes it. He’s going to make it to the majors, and then that causes him not to make it, and he goes to work in this factory in a small town. And it’s the life lived after that, near almost making it. I always watch the Olympics and you see all these stories of glory and stuff. There’s a lot of people who are really good athletes that don’t make it that far but they work really hard and then they have to have another life afterwards. That interested me so I use that as fodder for the stories.

Debbi: That’s fascinating. That’s really interesting. How much research do you do when you’re writing your books?

Len: Well, I’m very grateful for Wikipedia and Google.

Debbi: Aren’t we all?

Len: I am. I do write about … Being a little older than a lot of writers, I have a lot of experience like manufacturing experience, so I use that. I don’t branch off into something that I don’t know anything about, because I don’t have enough time, but using those years I wasn’t writing as my experience base. A lot of them, I set in certain time periods, like the book I’m writing now. It’s taking place in 1981. It’s taking place over 30, 40 years, but I always go on to Wikipedia and see like, okay, we’re in 1984 now. What happened in 1984? I want to make an incident so I can anchor the readers. It’s going to be like June or July, and then I look and I say that was when OJ had his slow speed police chase so that’s an event I can have him watching with his buddies on the bar because I was doing that, and people can relate to that if they were around at that time.

Debbi: Very interesting. I like the idea of writing about the past because then I don’t have to worry about technology as much.

Len: Yeah. I mean, cell phones changed everything, like for writing scenes. If you look at a Law & Order in the pre-cell phone age, it’s a different timing of the scene because they have to, they have to call into the office or the dispatch and, and now everything is zoom, zoom, zoom like, it’s just …

Debbi: Exactly. Yeah, it’s wild. What kind of writing schedule do you keep?

Len: Well, I work out every morning. I’m a triathlete and I have sort of a very scheduled swim or bike or run, and I walk my dog in the morning early. I always say I start about 10 o’clock, but I thought about that and really from about 10 to noon, it seems like I’m doing other stuff, like checking the email and reviewing. I look at the books and how they’re doing on Amazon, but usually start by noon. I try to get a couple, two, three hours in, and I’m generous in what I do. I also spend a lot of time reviewing other people, which I think is part of my reviewing or my writing process because it helps to see what other people are doing and what works and doesn’t work.

I work out every morning. I’m a triathlete and I have sort of a very scheduled swim or bike or run, and I walk my dog in the morning early.

I try to get two or three hours in every day, maybe not on Sunday or something, doing something else. But I think as a triathlete and someone training, there’s sort of a good complimentary discipline. I mean, they’re both things where you’re doing it every day. You’re not showing up on race day and expecting to run in a marathon or whatever. I wrote a lot of short stories and I like flash fiction and even some poems, but I think novels have worked the best for me because it’s just something I can plot out and take a day at a time and just keep working at it. It takes about a year and a half, two years, it seems like to get it finished.

I wrote a lot of short stories and I like flash fiction and even some poems, but I think novels have worked the best for me because it’s just something I can plot out and take a day at a time and just keep working at it.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You take your time with it. You build it out, just bit by bit. Stick with it.

Len: I like to go back and forth. Some people write the whole thing and then revise. I like to revise, so I just write one day and then I’ll revise what I wrote the next day. Usually when I finish my draft, it’s a pretty clean draft. The story might not work and I need to fix that, but it’s not rough. It’s readable anyway, so I can find someone to make them read it.

Debbi: Yeah. That’s good. That’s a good way to do it. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in a writing career?

Len: I think the advice I would give someone like me that’s come out of school … I wanted to be a writer when I was in school, and I got sort of crushed by an English professor when I was like 18 and impressionable and decided I didn’t have the skills to write. So I just changed my major. It was probably better for me. I went into business, but I would say a couple things. It’s good to get feedback. Don’t take it to heart, which is easy to say. It’s tougher when you’re young. Now, I look back at the critiques and they weren’t that bad. I mean, I shouldn’t have been so sensitive about it.

But most importantly, when I went back to 2003, I got this flyer from the University of Chicago’s Graham School offering a creative writing course, and just on a whim I took it. But learning, thinking you can write, it’s just like training. I mean, you need to be trained. You need to take classes, I think, most people. Some people are just gifted natural writers, but there’s just a lot of building blocks. How to set scenes, how to write dialogue, punctuation and simple things like that. You just need to learn that.

Some people are just gifted natural writers, but there’s just a lot of building blocks. How to set scenes, how to write dialogue, punctuation and simple things like that. You just need to learn that.

I felt fortunate I went to Iowa School of the Festival, not the MBA or the MFA program, but they had great classes and building blocks, try to write a story in 300 words, which is a great discipline to have and just because then you learn not to get bloated, long novels like a lot that I read.

Debbi: Yes, yes. There’s a lot of that out there, unfortunately. What authors have inspired you most, your own writing? What authors do you look to for inspiration?

Len: Well, I like Elmore Leonard. Earlier I think Hemingway, because I write purely spare writing. Not a lot of rumination, not a lot of introspection. Maybe not enough, but I like to read those writers like that and Richard Price, just for how they do something, construct scenes and tell stories through dialogue, which is how I mostly convey my stories. But I have to say before I was writing, I was trying to read everything Joyce Carol Oates wrote, which is almost impossible. I don’t know how anyone can write that much. I don’t even know how to pigeon hole or typecast her. I mean, she just writes about so many different subjects and it’s just impressive. That’s one of my favorite authors, I guess.

Debbi: Very cool. And what are you working on now?

Len: Well, the first novel I wrote was called American Past Time, and it was about Dancer Stonemason, a young Minor League pitcher, and his career unravels when he can’t make it to the majors. It’s a story that really covers the post-war era from the early ’50s through the Vietnam War. He’s got two sons and a wife and had lots of difficulties. Originally what I had when I tried to get it published was a 50 year saga that went through like 2000. I got someone at Grove Atlantic to read it. I had some contact there, and they weren’t discouraging, but they said it’s too long, especially for a debut novelist. You need to cut it in half, which is tough. It was helpful advice and I did.

I stopped it. I cut out a whole storyline and characters and generations and finished it, and it was a good first novel, I think. But I had all this material, and after I wrote Better Days, which was my second novel about the basketball player, I thought, no, I’ll use that somehow and I ended up after a lot of permutations writing, taking the same character who was a young man in the ’50s and making him, I would call him an old man, but he is probably about my age now. But he’s at the end of his life or getting closer to it.

The whole novel, it’s in the same small town in Missouri, and it takes place. It’s really a road trip story between him and a young soldier, but a tornado is descending on the town, and the whole novel takes place in a single day. So it was a nice change, a nice framework. I went from 30 years to one day.

Debbi: Wow.

Len: It’s a different kind of writing challenge. So to answer your question though, then I’m writing now the story that will make this a trilogy, because it’s going to bridge the estranged son of Dancer Stonemason from his boyhood up through 2003. So it’ll end just beforeEveryone Dies Famous, my third novel, begins.

Debbi: Wow.

Len: People like series I’ve been told, so now I’ll have a series, but it is a standalone novel, but hopefully all the people that read the other two novels will also buy that one and be entertained.

Debbi: So it’s kind of a quasi-series, sort of a series that you’ve cobbled together almost accidentally

Len: Right.

Debbi: Wow. That’s pretty cool. I was going to ask you …

Len: I could have a box set.

Debbi: I was going to ask you if you were thinking about doing a series at any point, and apparently you are.

Len: In a way, yes.

Debbi: In a way, kind of a series. Interesting! Linked standalones called maybe. Yes, you can call that a series as far as I’m concerned. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Len: No, I appreciate this opportunity. I love to talk about my books and writing, and I like to meet other writers, so I hope people are interested in what I’m doing. I have a nice email newsletter I send out, so I’d love to get people to sign up for that at some point. I’m not too harassing. I just send something out about once a month. I try to promote other indie writers and do reviews, make some use out of the reviews I’ve written and share them with other readers.

Debbi: That’s a laudable thing, promoting others.

Len: Yeah. I think you have to do that.

Debbi: I think we all should just all get together and promote each other, frankly, because we can all use the help . I think that’s it then if you feel like you’ve said everything you want to say.

Len: Yeah. I think so. Thank you.

Debbi: Okay. Well, it’s been a pleasure having you on. Thank you so much for being with us.

Len: My pleasure.

Debbi: And, on that note, I’ll just say to everyone, thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review, and if you would, subscribe to the YouTube video or give us a like there, both hopefully and check us out on Patreon. I have a Patreon page where I have bonus episodes, ad-free episodes, and all sorts of other perks for Patreon supporters. So until next time, when my guest will be Charles Salzberg, take care and happy reading.

View Details

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features another great story from The Adventures of Philip Marlowe.

Feel free to check out the video version, too.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Where ad-free episodes are a bi-weekly event!

Here’s a copy of the transcript in PDF.

Marlowe (01:17): Somewhere in the cold, persistent rain that made the city itself seem a thing of evil, a girl had disappeared and it was my job to find her, but before I did, I found death and a devil.

Narrator (01:31): From the pen of Raymond Chandler, outstanding author of crime fiction, comes his most famous character as CBS presents The Adventures of Philip Marlowe, and now with Gerald Mohr starred as Philip Marlowe, we bring you tonight’s exciting story, “The Black Halo”.

Marlowe (02:10): For three days, an ugly storm had lashed at the west coast from northern Oregon to the tip of lower California, and although it was only noon when I drove up to the sprawling red brick house just south of Santa Barbara to meet a new client of mine, the black that was in the sky and the driving rain that was everywhere left the day bleak and wet and cold. Left it the kind of day that made you feel that logs blazing in a fireplace and a warm dry robe were the only things that could matter to anyone. But when I got inside the house, Felix Drum, 350 uncomfortable pounds of executive in a wheelchair, who made his living importing perfumes, was very worried and not about the weather outside.

Felix Drum (02:52): Marlowe. Julia Perry is gone. I want you to find her and bring her back, and the sooner you do that, the better.

Marlowe (02:58): And the more I know, Mr. Drum, the easier it’ll be. Exactly who is Julia Perry?

Felix Drum (03:02): My assistant, very capable girl who in the past six months has practically taken over my entire business. She handles most of the work from her cottage here on the grounds where she lives. She also has some little cubbyhole in Los Angeles where she keeps her files and some sample stock.

Marlowe (03:19): Do you have the address of that cubbyhole?

Felix Drum (03:20): If I knew the answer to everything, I wouldn’t have hired you and anyway, it isn’t important. Hand me that little bottle.

Marlowe (03:29): This one?

Felix Drum (03:31): Yes. Thank you.

Marlowe (03:43): When did you last see Julia, Mr. Drum?

Felix Drum (03:45): Three days ago. It was three days ago when she left on one of her regular weekly trips down to Los Angeles to bid on perfumes. Usually she stayed away overnight at the Beachwood Plaza Hotel most of the time, and she was back here by noon the next day.

Marlowe (04:02): I suppose you’ve already checked the Beachwood Plaza?

Felix Drum (04:04): Yes, of course. My man, Ruby, the one who showed you in has called the place a dozen times, but they only know that Julia registered there three days ago and hasn’t been seen since.

Marlowe (04:14): Well, what about the girl herself, Mr. Drum? I mean her background, friends, family, that sort of thing?

Felix Drum (04:18): Yeah, as far as I know Marlowe, Julia has no friends, no family either. She’s just a sweet but smart little girl from someplace in Kansas.

Marlowe (04:26): No beaus, not even nice ones, huh?

Felix Drum (04:28): I don’t think she had the time. You see, when Julia first came to work for me, she wanted to get ahead and I gave her the chance. She made good. Today, she’s as much my right arm as Ruby is my leg.

Marlowe (04:39): Mr. Drum, did you notice anything unusual about Julia’s behavior lately?

Felix Drum (04:42): Yes, and that’s the reason I’m worried. About two weeks ago I saw changes in the girl, Marlowe. She seemed less spry, more preoccupied. I figured it was overwork myself. Since the end of the year always means detailed annual reports, so I made no comment at the time.

Marlowe (05:00): I see. Tell me, Mr. Drum, what does she look like?

Felix Drum (05:03): Well, I have no pictures, but she’s a blonde of medium height and was wearing a plaid raincoat and little circle of a hat when she left. Altogether, she’s sweet and simple, if that’s what you mean.

Marlowe (05:14): Yeah. Do you mind if I stop into the cottage on my way out?

Felix Drum (05:18): Marlowe, you turn the place inside out if it’ll help any. Only since I’m certain that Julia’s in some kind of bad trouble, you be quick and find her.

Marlowe (05:37): Julia Perry’s cottage was strictly the 50-50 arrangement the Drum had mentioned with one room office and the other living quarters. In the office. I found everything in its proper place, so I moved to the other room. The moment I stepped over the threshold, the white fluff, the trim, the quilted bedspread, and the splash of color in the drapes said that Julia Perry had to be something soft and warm, and the half a dozen quietly tailored suits that were lined up in the closet like a squat of soldiers facing right, told me that she was also simple and neat. I ran through the pockets of her clothes and all the drawers and closets in the room trying to find something that would give me a lead that I was sure I had to have. After 20 minutes, I had found only a leather cigarette case, a package of peppermint lifesavers and a maroon and gold monogrammed book of matches, the cover of which was half torn off so that I could only be certain that the middle initial was a V and that an E or an F were on either end. But since the name and address of an LA novelty company was on the inside, I bought the matches as a starting point, dropped them in my pocket and headed for the door. When I opened it, I was surprised to find Ruby, Drum’s right-hand man, purple scar and all standing in the rain. He was staring at me like my ears were spinning.

Ruby (06:49): You seemed to be a very thorough man, Mr. Private Detective,

Marlowe (06:52): And you seem to be a very nosy one. What do you want?

Ruby (06:54): To help Julia? Nothing else. Here’s a postcard that came for her this morning. It was mailed in LA yesterday.

Marlowe (07:01): Yeah? Dear Julia, tried to reach you at Santa Barbara-1-1-8-1 both yesterday and today, but got no answer. I’m leaving. I’m leaving town tomorrow. As one little girl who fled life in Haven, Kansas to another, I would’ve enjoyed seeing you again for a bit before I moved on to who knows where. Anne. Santa Barbara-1-1-8-1. That the number here?

Ruby (07:28): Yeah, it’s Julia’s private business phone. What do you think of the postcard? Any help?

Marlowe (07:34): Possibly. Tell me, Ruby. Why didn’t you show this to Mr. Drum?

Ruby (07:38): I forgot about it until just now.

Marlowe (07:40): You’re a liar.

Ruby (07:42): Well, it’s on account of the postcard was delivered here to the cottage.

Marlowe (07:45): Which is no man’s land for you?

Ruby (07:47): Yeah, sort of. Mr. Drum doesn’t like people who work for him mixing socially with each other.

Marlowe (07:53): Or maybe a sweet kid like Julia hasn’t got any use for the passes you’ve been making at her.

Ruby (07:57): Hold it. I like Julia and even if she don’t go for me, anything I can do to help her, I still do. Understand?

Marlowe (08:01): Yeah, I understand. I’m not so sure I believe. Goodbye, Ruby.

(08:11): It was pushing five o’clock and still raining by the time I got back to LA and over to the novelty company. Once there I presented the torn book of matches that I had found in Julia’s cottage to a bald man with horizontal question marks for eyebrows and who at the crinkle of a $5 bill tore himself away from his racing form long enough to check the files for a set of maroon and gold initials that had a V in the middle and it was six o’clock before I had the answer, which was EVE and they weren’t initials, but the front name of Mrs. Eve Bentley, who lived in a villa at the swank Sunset Terrace apartments. And according to the gentleman who said he knew his oats was a very classy filly. An hour later I was at Mrs. Bentley’s front door, and while I made with the chimes and waited, I wondered just how much a guy who loves the ponies could know about women. But when the door opened, I had my answer.

Eve Bentley (09:00): Yes. What is it?

Marlowe (09:02): Mrs. Eve Bentley wasn’t beautiful, but she was everything else, including a shimmering yard of gold hair piled high on her head and held in place by a knot of pearls that no Boy Scout ever tied. Her face was wide blue eyes and open red lips on a backdrop of soft, bare skin. She wore a black silk jersey dress that must have been sprayed on. She smiled when I said my name was Philip Marlowe and that I wanted to talk.

Eve Bentley (09:31): About what Mr. Marlowe?

Marlowe (09:33): Julia Perry. Ever hear of her?

Eve Bentley (09:35): No, I haven’t.

Marlowe (09:37): So I’ll try again. What do you know about Anne Somebody from Haven, Kansas.

Eve Bentley (09:41): Absolutely nothing.

Marlowe (09:43): This torn book of matches says otherwise. I found them in Julia Perry’s cottage. Julia Perry is missing. I’m a private detective who was hired to find her and the matches turned out to be yours. Now, may I come in?

Eve Bentley (09:56): Why, yes.

Marlowe (09:56): Thank you. Well, Mrs. Bentley, maybe we ought to start all over.

Eve Bentley (10:00): No, wait just a minute. Mr. Marlowe. I may be able to help you. Did this Julia Perry deal in perfumes?

Marlowe (10:08): That’s right. Now how did you know that?

Eve Bentley (10:10): Because I just remembered something and now I’m sure I can explain why my matches showed up where they did.

Marlowe (10:15): Just a minute. Just a minute. You know, whenever I’m talking to a beautiful woman, somebody’s always creeping around in the kitchen. Who is it this time?

Eve Bentley (10:24): Really? Mr. Marlowe. There’s a storm outside and there are windows and trees. If you put those three things together, that noise could have been a branch scratching on a glass pane.

Marlowe (10:34): Or somebody with squeaky shoes and a lot of curiosity. Somebody like Mr. Bentley, for instance.

Eve Bentley (10:39): I doubt that Mr. Marlowe. You see, Mr. Bentley’s been dead now for three long years.

Marlowe (10:46): Oh yes. Well, you were saying something about the matches.

Eve Bentley (10:50): Oh yes. Julia Perry must somehow or other have gotten hold of them through my fiance, Marvin Whitaker.

Marlowe (10:57): How does that figure?

Eve Bentley (10:58): Like two and two. Marvin is in the perfume business. Ditto Julia. Also, I think he mentioned her name once, said she was very clever for a girl who looked like somebody’s kid sister.

Marlowe (11:09): That fits, all right. Where will I find said fiance?

Eve Bentley (11:12): At his favorite bar and grill. But won’t you have a drink first, Mr. Marlowe?

Marlowe (11:18): No thanks Eve. There … there isn’t time. Now the bar and grill.

Eve Bentley (11:23): The Blue Boar.

Marlowe (11:25): Blue which?

Eve Bentley (11:26): Boar, Mr. Marlowe. It’s a very English spot over on Wilshire opposite Arthur Murray studio. But before you dash, do you at least have a match?

Marlowe (11:37): Yeah. A whole book of them honey, torn cover and all, and I want you to keep them. After all, they brought us together, didn’t they?

(11:54): When I got outside, I postponed my run between the raindrops over to Wilshire Boulevard long enough to take a look behind the villa and there in a newly planted strip of clover lawn below Mrs. Bentley’s kitchen window, I found something which was no surprise. Two clear prints of a man’s shoe. But from there on out, I got nothing more than a lot of rain down the back of my neck. So 10 minutes later I dripped into my car and headed for The Blue Boar and Eve Bentley’s gentleman friend. I located Marvin Whitaker, handsome hale fellow well met, in a white turtleneck sweater and riding britches behind a hot rum toddy in a corner booth that was pictures of steeplechase mounts against newly antique mahogany. And when I told him that I was looking for Julia Perry, he flashed a lot of glistening teeth at me, insisted that I join him in a warming glass of spirits and started to talk gesturing all the time with a riding crop.

Marvin Whitaker (12:48): Why, yes, old man. I know Julia Perry. In fact, almost did some business with her today.

Marlowe (12:53): You mean you were supposed to meet Julia someplace?

Marvin Whitaker (12:55): That’s right. At 1881 Selma Avenue to be precise. But she called me this morning and postponed the whole transaction indefinitely.

Marlowe (13:03): Could you stop projecting long enough to tell me why?

Marvin Whitaker (13:06): She didn’t say? Of course. It’s of no bother to me on a day like this. No sane man should be any father away from a toddy than we are right now. So drink up all boy. It’ll do you a world of good.

Marlowe (13:18): Yeah. Yeah, I bet it will. Look Mr. Whitaker. One more question. Did Julia ever speak of a girlfriend named Anne, someone she knew years ago in Kansas?

Marvin Whitaker (13:26): No, I don’t believe she did. Marlowe. Matter of fact, Julia never talked if anything, but perfumes. Now, drink your drink fellow before it’s chilled through.

Marlowe (13:34): Thanks, but no thanks, old bean. I do have to run. Really!

(13:43): It was a 20 minute drive to the address on Selma and the rain had stopped by the time I got there. The place was one of those once upon a time rooming houses that had been partitioned off into a couple of dozen, two by four cubbyholes, just big enough for a very small businessman to fill his fountain pen in. When I got to the door and asked the scrubwoman, who was a lot of wild red hair around two pop eyes for Julia Perry, I knew I was moving in the right direction because the lady standing in front of me was anything but calm and more important, she had just heard a pistol shot from the back of the house.

Scrubwoman (14:12): Yes, that’s right. A pistol shot. Not over two minutes ago. I’m sure that Perry girl had something to do with it because when I come from inside, I saw her rush out down these steps.

Marlowe (14:21): Did she say anything?

Scrubwoman (14:22): I don’t know. She was gone out of sight before I could open my mouth, but I know it was her on account of that plaid coat and little hat she wears.

Marlowe (14:28): Yeah, yeah. Now which room is hers? Come on.

Scrubwoman (14:30): That one there with the light showing under the door, but it’s locked. You won’t be able to get in. I just tried.

Marlowe (14:34): We’ll try again for luck. It’s not the best lumber, believe me.

Scrubwoman (14:40): This is terrible. Nothing like this has ever happened to me before. [pause] [gasp] It’s a man.

Marlowe (14:49): Yeah, a dead one at that, granny.

Scrubwoman (14:54): You know who did it?

Marlowe (14:56): On the mud and clove of grass on the bottom of his shoes, I tag him as a guy who was looking in a lady’s kitchen window about an hour ago. From that purple scar in his chin, I can do even better than that. The name granny is Ruby. A guy I thought was still in Santa Barbara.

Narrator (15:23): In just a moment, we will return to the second act of the adventures of Philip Marlowe. But first … a brief advert …

Sam McRae (15:36): I’ve never been a morning person and the last thing I need before my first cup of coffee is a visit from the cops. But at 8 45 on Friday morning, two cops were waiting for me outside my office. It was about one of my clients, Melanie Hayes.

Detective Derry (15:53): She seems to have disappeared and her ex-boyfriend was found shot to death. The FBI will have an interest in this.

FBI Special Agent Carl Jergins (16:01): It’s extremely important that we get in touch with Ms. Hayes as soon as possible. The life may be at risk.

Sam McRae (16:07): So I tried to find a client who didn’t want to be found. She wasn’t home. I asked questions but got no answers. Then I discovered she might’ve tried to steal my identity. Things took a really ugly turn when the mob caught up with me.

Stavos (16:25): Where’s Melanie Hayes?

Sam McRae (16:26): I don’t know, I swear, I don’t know.

Sam McRae (16:28): They let me go, but not before putting the fear of God in me. So I went looking for the client, finally found her. And what do you know? She says she’s running from the mob too. And as for identity theft, she hasn’t got a clue.

Melanie Hayes (16:44): Do you think I tried to rip you off? I dunno anything.

Sam McRae (16:50): Trying to find out what’s going on has taken me to some strange places. So what do you do when you think your client has tried to steal your identity and the mob comes after you trying to find her and more people start dying? Do your best to find the answers and stay alive.

Debbi (17:16): Identity Crisis. A novel by Debbi Mack.

Narrator (17:22): And now with our star Gerald Mohr, we return to the second act of Philip Marlowe and tonight’s story, “The Black Halo”.

Marlowe (17:37): Ruby’s body sprawled on the floor and the girl in the plaid raincoat running away from it meant one thing, Julia Perry’s trouble was important like life, but more like death. A half sneer was congealed on Ruby’s face and his eyes, turned waxy, still held a look of mild surprise. I wasted some breath telling the scrub woman not to touch anything. And then I put in a call to my overweight client in Santa Barbara. He was glad to hear from me at first,

Felix Drum (18:04): Marlowe. Well, now, I didn’t expect a call from you this soon. You sure work fast, don’t you, lad? Have you found her? Have you located Julia?

Marlowe (18:11): Not quite. She’s about five minutes ahead of me. Incidentally, Mr. Drum, she works fast, too.

Felix Drum (18:16): What do you mean by that?

Marlowe (18:16): Let me ask the questions, huh? Number one, what was your leg man, Ruby doing in LA tonight?

Felix Drum (18:22): Ruby? Why, I sent him in to pick up some medicine for me. Why?

Marlowe (18:26): Come on, Drum. You can talk straighter than that and you better. I just found Ruby dead.

Felix Drum (18:30): Dead? Ruby’s dead? What happened to him, Marlowe?

Marlowe (18:34): He was shot. So forget the gags and tell me why he was snooping around.

Felix Drum (18:38): All right. I didn’t trust you. It’s my policy to trust nobody until he proves himself. I sent Ruby in to follow you and check on your progress.

Marlowe (18:46): That was brilliant. You only made three mistakes. First. I don’t need to be checked on. Second, you got your man killed. And third, you forced Julia’s hand because it was Miss Perry herself who pulled the trigger on Ruby.

Felix Drum (18:57): Julia. Marlo. I don’t believe that,

Marlowe (19:00): Which proves nothing, Mr. Drum, but skip it. Tell me, do you know a man named Marvin Whitaker?

Felix Drum (19:04): Whitaker?

Marlowe (19:05): Yeah.

Felix Drum (19:05): No, should I?

Marlowe (19:06): Well, he says he’s in the perfume business.

Felix Drum (19:08): Well, I know everybody on the coast who bought more than two bottles of perfume at one time in the last 40 years, and I don’t recall that name. I think the man must be a liar.

Marlowe (19:18): So do I. Thanks for the help and Drum, if you’ve got any more expendable flunkies around, keep ’em out of my hair. I’ll call you when I’ve got something.

(19:30): I called homicide next and told detective Lieutenant Ybarra where to find the body and who was responsible for it being in that dead condition. When the question of why came up, I admitted I was still shooting blanks. I told him about the razzle dazzle. Whitaker had handed me and named The Blue Boar on Wilshire as my next stop. Ybarra said he’d call me there. And when I got to the entrance of the place, I saw Whitaker draped in a trench coat that involved enough cloth to rig a four-masted schooner standing in the anteroom, impatiently smacking his leg with that riding crop. He looked positively. dashing. Question was, which way?

Marvin Whitaker (20:02): Hi there, Marlo. Hey, old boy. You look upset. Anything wrong?

Marlowe (20:07): I maybe upset, Whitaker, but you’re the one that’s going to spill. First, are you leaving or coming back?

Marvin Whitaker (20:11): I’m just leaving.

Marlowe (20:12): Been here all the time since I talked to you?

Marvin Whitaker (20:14): That’s right. You see my coat is perfectly dry.

Marlowe (20:17): It stopped raining half an hour ago.

Marvin Whitaker (20:19): Well, well you see, if I’d been outside, I would’ve known that. But why this third degree, Marlowe? What’s up?

Marlowe (20:25): It’s a long story. Maybe we better sit down and talk it all over from the beginning.

Marvin Whitaker (20:29): Oh, I’m afraid I can’t, not just now. I’ve got a date.

Marlowe (20:32): She’ll keep

Marvin Whitaker (20:33): Not this one. It’s something rather special.

Marlowe (20:37): Special, huh? Like Eve Bentley?

Marvin Whitaker (20:40): Now look here, old boy. You’re prying into my personal affairs.

Marlowe (20:42): Whitaker, I’ll rip the lid clear off your personal affairs if necessary to get a clean answer out of you. What do you really know about Julia Perry?

Marvin Whitaker (20:49): I told you once. Are you implying that I’m a liar?

Marlowe (20:52): At least that. For instance, who puts out Amir? Come on, Whitacker. It’s a well-known fragrance.

Marvin Whitaker (20:59): I … I don’t recall offhand.

Marlowe (21:01): That’s strange because any woman knows Amir is a Dana perfume.

Marvin Whitaker (21:04): Just what are you trying to prove by all this?

Marlowe (21:05): That as a perfume dealer, you stink. And try this for size. When I got to that address you gave me, I found a fresh corpse there with a bullet hole in it.

Marvin Whitaker (21:13): A murder?

Marlowe (21:14): Yeah. And your routine was pat, brother. So before homicide starts combing out the snags in your story, you better untangle it yourself right now. You lied to me and why’d you do it, Whitacker? Why the double talk?

Marvin Whitaker (21:25): All right, Marlowe. I’ll tell you. I’ll tell you this.

(21:28): [quick fistfight]

Marlowe (21:33): He was as quick as a wounded cat. The riding crop slashed across my face even before I’d realized it moved. And by the time the red light stopped dancing in my eyes, Marvin Whitaker was gone. I turned as the head waiter walked up to me. He studied the hot red welt rising on my face for a moment, and then murmured discreetly that if my name was Marlowe, I was wanted on the phone. It was Lieutenant Ybarra.

Lieutenant Ybarra (21:59): Marlowe, you can stop beating the brush for Julia Perry. We found her.

Marlowe (22:03): You did? Where is she, Ybarra?.

Lieutenant Ybarra (22:04): She’s out in the alley here behind the Beachwood Plaza Hotel, Marlowe. Exactly eight floors down from the window of her room. She fell through the glass roof above the rear entrance.

Marlowe (22:14): Oh,

Lieutenant Ybarra (22:15): It’s not pretty. She explained the whole thing, including that Ruby guy’s murder in a note we found in our room.

Marlowe (22:23): I’ll be right over, Ybarra.

Lieutenant Ybarra (22:24): Okay? Don’t hurry.

(22:37): The old story, Marlowe. When Drum finally got around to trusting her, he practically gave her his business. It was too much temptation. She’d been stealing from him in a big way for almost a year. Her note says.

Marlowe (22:49): And she decided to run for it when she knew she couldn’t hide the thefts any longer, huh?

Lieutenant Ybarra (22:52): That’s right. That Ruby caught on some way and she killed him. But I guess murder was too rich for her blood. So she came back here, thought it over and checked out.

Marlowe (23:02): Yeah. All she left behind was a little plaid raincoat and a purse over there. And she was wearing a dinky hat, too, Ybarra. Did you find that?

Lieutenant Ybarra (23:12): Mmm-hmm. Come over here to the window, Phil. See down there on that canopy, that little black circle? That’s her hat. I sent Mooney down to get it. Can’t leave any loose ends around, you know?

Marlowe (23:22): Yeah. Got a light, lieutenant?

Lieutenant Ybarra (23:25): Oh sure. Here you are.

Marlowe (23:25): Thanks.

Lieutenant Ybarra (23:27): Hey, what happened to you? That welt on your face, Phil.

Marlowe (23:32): I backed that horsey liar named Whitaker into a corner, and he slapped his way out with a riding crap. And speaking of loose ends, if I ever catch up with that—mmm—Ybarra, where did that stuff on the dresser come from?

Lieutenant Ybarra (23:43): Well, this, out of the pockets of Julia’s plaid coat. Why?

Marlowe (23:47): That’s impossible unless … holy smoke. That’s why Whitaker lied to me.

Lieutenant Ybarra (23:52): Hey, where are you going with that, Phil? Come back here.

Marlowe (23:54): I got to check on something, Ybarra, and keep your notebook handy.If I’m right, this deal is still wide open

(24:05): All the way from the suicide’s room in the Beachwood Plaza out to the widow’s villa in the Sunset Terrace, my mind juggled a jumble of facts, trying to beat them into a brand new pattern. A pattern that had to include an object Ybarra had found in the pocket of that plaid raincoat. It almost made sense. I needed just a little more. When I turned into the parking lot at the Sunset Terrace, rain began to fall again. Thin, cold rain. I walked to Eve Bentley’s door and pressed the bell. Just as I expected, it was Marvin Whitaker, unsmiling and nervous, who answered the door. I didn’t give him a chance to think I just swung high.

(24:39): [brief altercation]

(24:42): Okay, horseman. That squares us up. Come on, heavy. Roll over. Let’s see if you’re carrying a gun. Okay, no gun. Now, be a good boy, Whitacker, and you’ll make out all right. But one funny wiggle out of you, and I’ll crack your skull. It’s a promise. Do you hear me?

Marvin Whitaker (24:56): Yeah. Yeah, I heard you.

Marlowe (24:57): All right. Where’s Eve? Is she here?

Marvin Whitaker (25:01): Find out for yourself, Marlowe. I’m through.

Marlowe (25:04): Fair enough. Just so I’m not talking through my hat, I’ll take a look in her closet first.

Marvin Whitaker (25:08): She won’t be in there, I guarantee.

Marlowe (25:09): No, but her future might be. Let’s see, it’s got to be in here someplace. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is probably it. Brown cloth coat as chic is a pair of hob nail boots and still damp. And the label says the BH Company, Haven, Kansas. That does it. I’ve got it all now and my chivalry just died. Where is she, Whitaker? Where’s Eve?

Eve Bentley (25:29): Right here, Marlowe. Oh, don’t try that. I guess you really do have it figured out, haven’t you?

Marlowe (25:34): Yes. Eve, I have. Sorry, it turned out this way because you had your points as Eve and as Julia.

Eve Bentley (25:41): Don’t put it in the past tense. Marlowe. As Eve Bentley, my life is just beginning and now I’ve got everything I ever wanted as Julia Perry.

Marvin Whitaker (25:48): Then you’re Julia Perry.

Eve Bentley (25:50): I was Marvin.

Marlowe (25:51): She still is Whitaker. At least that’s what the bailiff will call it in court.

Eve Bentley (25:55): There won’t be any court. Marlowe.

Marlowe (25:56): Well, I’m afraid there will, baby. You’re twice a killer now. And both for the same reason. Remember? First, Ruby, because he saw you as Eve and the girl you pushed out of the hotel window, who was no doubt. Anne, your old chum from the hometown. She must’ve seen you posing as Eve too.

Eve Bentley (26:11): Alright, Marlowe. Anne ran into me by accident and ruined everything. I had no choice. I promised her money and then told her to go to my room at the Beachwood Plaza and wait for me.

Marvin Whitaker (26:20): I can’t believe this. It can’t be true.

Eve Bentley (26:21): Yes, Marvin. It is true. Darling, I didn’t want this mess. I’d have left town this morning as I intended if sweet sly little Anne hadn’t seen me. I tried to get rid of you the easy way, Marlowe. When I sent you to Marvin, the Selma Street address he gave you should have led you to the end of Julia Perry.

Marvin Whitaker (26:38): Is that why you phoned me and told me to lie to Marlowe?

Eve Bentley (26:39): Yes, Marvin. I was going there to write my suicide note and use the stock room for my disappearing act. But Ruby caught me. And after that I had to work fast. But it’s all right now. It all worked out perfectly. They were the only two who knew besides you, Marlowe,

Marlowe (26:59): Aren’t you forgetting little Marvin here?

Eve Bentley (27:01): Forgetting him? Oh no, Mr. Marlowe. Marvin’s the one person I can count on.

Marvin Whitaker (27:07): That’s what you think. You don’t get me mixed up in this.

Eve Bentley (27:10): Marvin!

Marvin Whitaker (27:10):I bargained for an heiress, not a murderess.

Eve Bentley (27:13): Why you dirty little! Alright then, I’ll use this gun on you too, because I’m getting out of here and no one’s going to stop me.

Marvin Whitaker (27:20): But you’re right between us, see? You can’t get us both.

Marlowe (27:22): He’s right, baby. You’re not good enough to get us both. And killing just one of us isn’t going to solve anything. What do you say?

(27:26): [He socks her in the jaw.]

(27:30): It’s been a long night, baby. You just couldn’t tell when you were licked.

(27:34): [Eve sobs uncontrollably.]

Lieutenant Ybarra (27:47): Do you want any more of this coffee, Marlowe?

Marlowe (27:49): No. It’s sludge, Lieutenant. I wonder what Julia Perry uses for a heart.

Lieutenant Ybarra (27:54): You know, she planned to think for six months when she first set herself up as Eve Bentley, and it probably would’ve—

Server (27:59): You want your check now?

Marlowe (27:59): Oh, oh yes.

Lieutenant Ybarra (28:02): Probably would’ve worked if everything hadn’t closed in on her.

Marlowe (28:05): Yeah. A friend Anne from Kansas. Ruby, the leg man.

Lieutenant Ybarra (28:08): And you with that torn book of matches. Incidentally, that was pretty fast figuring up in the hotel room there, Marlowe.

Marlowe (28:14): Oh, not so fast, Ybarra. I knew Eve had those matches because I left them with her. So when you found the same matches in the pocket of Julia’s plaid coat, it figured. Julia almost had to be Eve.

Lieutenant Ybarra (28:24): And that left Anne to furnish the body for the suicide.

Marlowe (28:27): Yeah, I wasn’t so sure about that until I found the brown coat with a Haven Kansas label in Eve’s apartment.

Lieutenant Ybarra (28:33): Yeah. Well, I’d better wade on back to the office, Phil. Look at that rain come down. Think it’ll ever stop.

Marlowe (28:40): I dunno. I doubt it.

Lieutenant Ybarra (28:42): Oh, by the way, here. It’s her hat. Mooney finally got it down off that hotel canopy. Maybe you’d like it for a souvenir.

Marlowe (28:49): Yeah.

Lieutenant Ybarra (28:50): The military people call a halo hat. Goodnight. Marlowe.

Marlowe (29:07): I sat there a while after Ybarra left looking at the rain in the street and the cold coffee in front of me and Julia’s little round halo on the table. And finally I got up and went outside. Dirty waters, scattered along the gutter and gurgled thickly into the sewer drain at the corner. For a minute, I caught a glimpse again of the girl I’d figured Julia Perry to be when I went through a cottage in Santa Barbara. Yeah, that girl was an angel. When I finally caught up with her, a halo turned out to be black, jet black inside and out. I dropped the little hat into the gutter and watched it go as far as the drain at the corner. And then I went home.

Narrator (30:18): The Adventures of Philip Marlowe, created by Raymond Chandler stars Gerald Mohr, and is produced and directed by Norman Macdonnell. Script is by Mel Dinelli, Robert Mitchell, and Gene Levitt. Featured in the cast were Joan Banks, Paul Frees, Peter Leeds, Jack Kruschen, and Lois Corbett. Lieutenant Detective Ybarra is played by Jeff Corey. The special music was by Richard Aurandt. Be sure and be with us again next week when Philip Marlowe says,

Marlowe (30:50): A startled corpse, a blue-eyed woman, and a cryptic message scrawled by a dingy man with the pieces of a Chinese puzzle that wouldn’t fit together until I found out what was deadly about the orange dog.

For early access, ad-free episodes, and more, check us out on Patreon.

View Details

Our guest for this episode of the Crime Cafe podcast is crime fiction and true crime writer Amanda Lamb.

Join us as we discuss her career in journalism and how close she came to going to law school! Yikes! 🙂 Good call, BTW.

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

We also have a shop now. Check it out!

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

The transcript can be downloaded here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today has worked for more than 30 years as a television news reporter. She now has four podcasts, has authored three books of crime fiction and three of true crime. She’s also written family and children’s books. She owns a company called Stage Might Communications. I am very pleased to have with me today the multi-talented Amanda Lamb. Hi Amanda. How are you doing?

Amanda: Good, Debbi. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Debbi: Well, I really appreciate your being here, and I am just amazed with the work you’re doing. I love that you create podcasts the way I create blogs. You seem to not be satisfied with just one.

Amanda: Yes, I developed an interest in podcasting when I was working for my television station a couple years ago, and I really didn’t have any idea what it was about. I had done a little bit of listening to podcasts, but I hadn’t really ever worked on a podcast, and writing a narrative podcast is like writing a book, or it’s like writing multiple documentaries because of the length of a True Crime podcast, for example. But I just really loved it and I really developed an interest in it, and now I’m doing more interview-based podcasts like yours, and I love that as well, because I’m curious about people. I’m interested in people, and it just really fits kind of where I am in my career.

Debbi: That is really cool, because I can really appreciate that, because I’ve often thought of doing other interview-type podcasts because actually I have a journalism background

Amanda: There you go. Well, you can try.

Debbi: It all started with that, you know. That’s where really my writing in a sense, professionally started kind of.

Amanda: Yes

Debbi: It started with journalism school, let’s say.

Amanda: Okay. Okay.

Debbi: And I didn’t go quite the route you did. I went to law school instead.

Amanda: Well, you know, one of the things I’m learning – my podcast is called Ageless, and it’s about women transforming personally and professionally – and I’m learning that nobody’s life is linear. Everybody’s life seems to kind of go in many different directions, sometimes to arrive at the same place, but there’s nothing about life that’s linear.

Debbi: Yes, I agree with you completely there. What was it that prompted you to start writing crime fiction and true crime?

Amanda: I became a focused crime reporter. Most people in TV don’t specialize early on in their careers. You’re a general assignment reporter, which means you cover a little bit of everything, but I was always interested, especially in the courtroom process and the criminal justice process. My parents were attorneys. My father was a district attorney, and so growing up, I actually went to several murder trials and I got an opportunity to see how the process worked. I always thought I’d be an attorney. That just seemed like the thing that I was going to do, given my family background.

I really loved writing, so in college I started to think more about how could I combine this love of writing with kind of this interest in criminal justice, specifically in the puzzles, because a case, a criminal case involves a puzzle, trying to put these different pieces together to try to understand how it happened, why it happened, who’s involved, who’s responsible. And so I really just became a crime reporter a couple years into my TV reporting career because by default, I was the one that was interested. I wanted to go to these trials that a lot of people thought were boring, and I just fell in love with it.

I think the thing that ended up keeping me involved in it was the fact that I could cover the incident, the crime, then the investigation, then the arrest, and then follow it all the way through to the trial, sometimes the retrial, and it really was fascinating to me. I was a crime reporter, so obviously writing true crime was a natural extension of that, and true crime books are tedious. I mean, you have to cross your t’s and dot your i’s. I enjoyed the process, but then at the same time, it felt like an extension of my work and not really something that was super creative to me. So I said, you know, I’ve got all these stories that I’ve never been able to tell.

I always say a TV reporter probably reveals five to ten percent of what they know in a story, and I had all these other stories that I wanted to share, but I had to do so in a way that was fiction. So that’s how I started writing mysteries. I started taking a grain of something that really happened and then developing it into a story with my imagination.

Debbi: Totally. You get so much out of your own life experience in creating fiction.

Amanda: Absolutely.

Debbi: That’s the funny part.

Amanda: I’ve got like … a tickle in my throat. Excuse me.

Debbi: No worries. I was just thinking, it’s fiction and yet so much of it can be inspired by real life.

Amanda: Absolutely. And it’s funny, it’s to the point where my editors over the years of my fiction have said to me, some of their notes have been like, well, I don’t think this could really happen, so maybe we need to change it. And I’m like, it kind of did happen. I’m very careful to take things out of the actual story that I was involved in, to change the characters so that we’re talking about a compilation of a couple of different people, not necessarily one person in one case. I have that background, and so when I write crime fiction, I don’t have to research. I don’t have to ask police officers or medical examiners or lawyers or judges much at all. I mean, very occasionally I might reach out to somebody, but I’ve been doing it for 35 years, so I have a lot of experience. So I’ve enjoyed taking what I know and then putting it into fiction.

Debbi: That is awesome. That is really awesome. How would you categorize your crime fiction? Is it more mystery or thriller oriented?

Amanda: Oh, definitely more mystery. When I started writing the fiction a couple years ago – really before the pandemic but then kind of ramped it up during the pandemic – I knew as a TV reporter that I wanted to make my books clean because I had a reputation in the community and I had a responsibility to my company to make sure that whatever I did didn’t reflect poorly on them, so I really decided I was going to write books that you could read on the beach, you could read on an airplane. They’re fun and yes, I get into a little bit of things that you might get into in a book like that, an autopsy or there’s some violence or whatever, but overall, they’re really just supposed to be entertaining. I spent so many years mired in the darkness that I really actually think it’s important to have humor in your books, and so I put a lot of humor into my fiction.

Debbi: Yes, I think humor is essential, really in a sense to almost all fiction. Even the darkest needs a little bit of light touch to give a little relief.

Amanda: Yes, and no criticism of anybody that wants to be very dark and macabre. I mean, that’s fine. It’s just I’ve actually seen all that stuff, and I don’t necessarily want that to be part of my fiction, so I try to just make a good story and I try to have some suspense. My first three mysteries are a series, so you can read them alone, but if you are able to read them from the beginning, which is Dead Last, Lies That Bind and No Wake Zone, there’s a backstory.

The main character, she’s a TV reporter, and she is the adult survivor of a murder in her family, and so I’ve always been curious about that because I’ve covered so many cases with children who have had one parent murdered, and the other parent goes to prison for that murder, and I always wondered what that was like for them growing up, especially now when they can Google everything and find out everything. So I just thought that that would be a really interesting premise. So you learn more about her background, Maddie’s background throughout the three books. I do revisit a lot of things so that you can easily catch up if you don’t read them in order.

I have a new book coming out in the fall, with a totally new cast of characters. It is not actually titled yet , so I can’t really … I have a title. My editor doesn’t love it, the publisher doesn’t love it, so we’re still working on that, but I just decided I wanted to do something new. This book is from four different points of view, and it has my main character who is a newspaper reporter in this book. It has my investigator, it has the husband of a missing woman, and it has the manager of this hotel where everything takes place. So I just said I want to try that. I want to see what that’s like, and then each character dovetails into the next, so one person interacts with the next person, and then their point of view takes over.

Debbi: Ooh. I like when books do that. I like when stories go that way.

Amanda: Yes. It’s just interesting. It’s a little bit more interesting to write, to be honest. I was kind of getting tired of just being in one character’s head, and I think that’s why I took a break. I will definitely go back to that series because I left a lot of things hanging, so I need to go back to that. But I just wanted to try it, and I’m really proud of it. It really worked out well, and I’m excited for people to read it.

Debbi: When’s it going to come out?

Amanda: Right now I think we’re looking around September, so that’ll be great.

Debbi: That’s great. I’ll have to look for it.

Amanda: Yes. Hopefully I’ll have a title by then.

Debbi: I would hope so.

Amanda: I named it … well, it’s funny … I can tell you because it won’t be the title. I was in the mountains when I wrote the book, and I love using the environment almost as another character. So No Wake Zone, which was my third mystery, I wrote that at the beach because I think that the ocean has so much beauty, but also so much kind of danger and the unknown, and I wanted to use that as the backdrop. So in the mountains during the pandemic, I was really inspired to use that as a backdrop, and I decided to call the book Crag and Tail, which is a rock formation on a mountain. But again, a little bit vague, doesn’t really tell you what the book’s about. So yes, it will be something a lot more approachable when it is finally published

Debbi: Cool. Something a little that says a little more mystery or suspense.

Amanda: Yes, exactly. A little more about what the book is about. Exactly.

Debbi: Exactly. Yes. You said that you haven’t worked on the series, but you want to. Do you have any idea where you’d like to go with the series ultimately?

Amanda: Yes, I think I’d like to bring her story to a conclusion. I’ve alluded to what’s happening, and it’s funny because I’ve taken notes from my readers. They really wanted her to have a love interest, so she got a love interest in Book 3, and they really wanted to know more about her background and whether this case was going to be solved. So she’s solving a case in real time, but then she has her personal backstory that she’s also kind of working through and trying to figure out. So yes, I’d like to bring that to a conclusion, because I know where it ends, but the readers don’t and so I want to get there.

Debbi: Yes. Indeed. So how much research do you do when you’re writing fiction? There’s a lot that you know.

Amanda: I research just the things I don’t know. So for example, if I am in the mountains and there’s something about the topography or how you would go about searching for a missing person, I will look that up. And again, a lot of what I do is ripped from the headlines, so it’s easy to find articles and things about that. I’m a water person, I’m a beach person, I’m a paddle boarder, so in my third book, I do a lot, and I’m a boater, so I do a lot about paddle boarding and boating, and I know a lot about those topics. But of course, I had to look things up. Things about the tide and things about the weather, and things that I wanted to make sure I got right. I teach journalism, introduction to journalism at a local college, and I just tell my students when I see careless errors in their stories, that could have been solved by Googling. All you have to do is look something up.

Back in the day, we had Encyclopedia Britannica, and you had to physically look it up, and if you didn’t have it at home, you had to go to the library. Now it’s all at our fingertips. Obviously, you have to make sure you have a credible source, but it really is all at our fingertips. So, really I don’t have to do a whole lot of research when I write my fiction, unless I’m setting it in a place I’m unfamiliar with, but I don’t think I would do that. The first two books that I wrote were set in the city where I live, which is Raleigh, North Carolina, hence my backdrop .

Debbi: I love it. Great backdrop.

Amanda: So I really don’t have to do too much, which is nice. Now, when I have done the true crime nonfiction, I have to really do a lot of research because even though those are my stories, I have to make sure every, every single fact is vetted, and that’s what I do on our true crime podcast. Every single fact has to be vetted so it has to be connected. You know, think of a research paper when you were a kid or in college or high school, you have to put footnotes for every single fact, and that is exactly what we do in a podcast.

I have to make sure every, every single fact is vetted, and that’s what I do on our true crime podcast. Every single fact has to be vetted so it has to be connected.Debbi: Yes. It’s almost like a legal brief. Everything you allege has to have a footnote or a reference to a transcript

Amanda: Something to prove that it’s credible. My last podcast that I did, my last true crime for my company, was called The Killing Month: August 1978, and it was about a band of brothers who were outlaws in Pennsylvania back in late 1970s. They were eventually arrested. They stole big farm equipment, so they would go into farms in the middle of the night, back a truck up and roll the farm equipment onto the truck. Then some of the younger members of the gang – nephews, sons, relatives – started getting caught, and when they got caught, they started talking to police. And when they started talking to police, they started dying because the head of the gang was putting them in the ground, literally in the ground. They were killed and some of them were buried alive, and it was very, very dramatic.

My connection to that story was that my father was the district attorney who prosecuted them, so I remember the case, and then I remember going to the trial when I was 13 and 14. He was downsizing, and he had all of this memorabilia from the trial, including some of his personal notes, but more importantly, every single article that was ever written about it in the local newspapers, the Philadelphia Inquirer and The Daily Local News, and I had those. He gave them to me and that’s where I got the idea for the podcast, because there had already been a book, there had already been a movie, and I said, you know what? I’m going to try to do a podcast on this.

So talk about research. I spent about three months at my dining room table collating everything, and then going through every single article, typing out the facts I wanted, and then referencing it from the date and the year and everything that it was written and the publication. So it was a tremendous amount of research.

Debbi: Wow. And what an archive of information your dad gave you!

Amanda: Oh, absolutely. Although, it’s funny … Well, first of all, it was 45 years later, and I did interview many, many other people that he connected me with – FBI agents, local police, state police, witnesses, victims’ family members, all sorts of people. But I really needed that foundation, and I would call him or email him and say, well, what about this or what about this? He’s like, it was 45 years ago, and he was a big picture guy. He was the head, the lead District Attorney, and his second chair, who happened to be a woman, which was really unusual at that time in 1978, she was the one who did the yeoman’s job of pulling so much of the facts together. So it was important for me to have the facts from the media, but then also get them from different people involved in the case, and then continually double check when there was a conflict with those facts.

So it was important for me to have the facts from the media, but then also get them from different people involved in the case, and then continually double check when there was a conflict with those facts.Debbi: Wow. I can just imagine the work you put into that. It must have been fascinating too.

Amanda: Oh, it really was, because I’d always been fascinated by the case since I was … I mean, I knew about it. I was 12 when it happened. I heard my dad and my mom talking about it. Back in the day, district attorneys actually went out to crime scenes. We were in a kind of a rural suburban area in Pennsylvania, outside of Philadelphia, so my dad would go in the middle of the night to a crime scene, and then I would overhear him talking about it, and he was pretty straightforward with me when I asked him questions. So even at that young age, I knew that people had been shot, they had been buried alive. These guys were dangerous. The youngest victim was actually a 15-year-old girl, and I was not that much younger. I was 12 , so there was a lot of intrigue for me at a very young age about this case.

Debbi: I can imagine. I’m picturing Atticus Finch and Scout at this point, but in Pennsylvania.

Amanda: I remember my dad in the courtroom. He had a booming voice, and I remember him pointing at the defendant, like something out of a Perry Mason moment where he’s pointing at the defendant and says, ‘in God we trust. This man must be convicted of murder in the first degree. Thank you, your Honor’ and sat down. And so it made a big impression on me. I didn’t realize how much of an impression until I started researching it and remembering a lot of the moments.

Debbi: Yes. Wow. What authors have most inspired your writing?

Amanda: That’s a really great question. I read a lot when I was younger, and then as most people do, they get busy with life and they have children and have jobs, and they don’t have as much time to do reading. So I would say early on, I read a lot of Patricia Cornwell, I read a lot of James Patterson. I never read true crime. I watched true crime, and I listen to it, but I don’t read it. So most of my fiction experiences were really the bestsellers. I will say in recent years, I’m really, really into British authors. I find that British crime authors, thriller mysteries are so just … I don’t know what it is about their voice. It’s just so interesting, and I wish I could look at or recite the names. I would have to go to my book list. I am in a book club now, and actually I’m in two, and so we mix it up a lot, but my favorite genre would be really any British female author who writes thrillers.

Debbi: I’m with you on that. I mean, I’ve been reading some lately that are just so good.

Amanda: They are.

Debbi: Those protagonists are so dark and yet they’re so funny.

Amanda: I think what I really like about what they do is just how they spin the story, that there’s so much implied. They’re not necessarily showing you something really scary; they’re just implying it, and I think the scariest things in life are things that you think could actually happen. I just recently read one – and I think a lot of them are like this – where they rent the country house for the weekend and then something bad happens. But I really like those because I think, well, how many of us rent the Airbnb and always wonder is somebody watching you, and who has stayed in this house and who lives here? And so I think there’s a lot of intrigue in things that are scary that could actually happen.

Debbi: Indeed. I was going to ask you, was it difficult to switch from journalism to fiction writing? Did you find any difficulty adjusting, to letting yourself go, kind of?

Amanda: Yes. I think if I’m being 100 percent honest, I am a nonfiction writer. I write a blog. It used to be about parenting. I write it for the TV station I just retired from, WRAL and for years it was called Go Ask Mom. They’ve just changed it to WRAL Family. And so for 14 years, I wrote about my kids and being a mom, and I really think that’s probably some of the best writing I’ve ever done. I’ve written several memoirs about my kids and about parenting and working and all that. I do think that’s probably some of my best writing. So it’s interesting to say, okay, now I’m a fiction writer. I’m sorry. I don’t know why I keep having these. I think it’s the pollen. It’s horrible here. Where are you, Debbi?

Debbi: I’m in Maryland, so the pollen hasn’t come out quite yet here, but it’s going to get there.

Amanda: It’s bad here. It’s all over my car. So I think that I am definitely more angled in nonfiction writing. So when I write fiction, I have to really give myself license to let go and not be so controlled by how did it really happen? Could this happen? I’m getting better at that. I really believe that every single book I write, I get better at it. Let’s hope that we all get better at something the more we do it.

One funny story in my third book, in my series, No Wake Zone, during the pandemic, I was writing a lot and rewriting a lot, and I was sitting on the couch one day and I went, it would be so cool if this happened right here. I was convinced that was going to be the best thing, and then I realized I had written myself into a hole, and I still really wanted that thing to happen, but now I had to go back and change a hundred other things to make that happen because they didn’t make sense anymore. And so that’s where I think fiction writing gets a little complicated. You have to know your characters. You have to know what they look like. You have to know their backstory. You have to make sure that if they have brown eyes in this scene, they have brown eyes in this scene. And if you’re just doing one point of view, the main character, she can’t know what other characters know or what they’re thinking. So there’s a lot to keep track of. I do keep a glossary for all of my characters, for every name, every location. I have descriptions, and I have it in alphabetical order, and then I keep really detailed chapter summaries so I can go back and fix inconsistencies.

But I think that’s the hardest thing about fiction writing, is that you’re creating something that’s not real, so therefore, if there is a disconnect it’s your world, you created it. So if there’s a disconnect, it’s your fault. I also had an age issue from one of my books to the next, so once I got into the second book, I realized that I had already established certain ages, and I thought, well, okay, that’s it. I can’t change that now, because these are characters in real time. I have not written anything about the pandemic yet, so everything I’ve written has been set in 2019 or prior, and I think I’m just going to skip it.

Debbi: I can’t blame you.

Amanda: I haven’t decided, but I know that that’s a big thing that authors really get concerned about. I also have friends that don’t even want to use social media or texting or write about any of that, so everything they write or cell phones is mid-nineties or prior. . But I incorporate all that because that’s the world that we live in.

Debbi: Yes. Yes. Well, if you want to write historical fiction, that’s fine.

Amanda: Right, exactly.

Debbi: If you want to write contemporary, that works too.

Amanda: I would have to research to write historical fiction, so I’m glad to write right now as things are and I think for me, I would have no problem setting something later and referencing the pandemic, but I don’t want the pandemic to be the whole story, so I’m going to have to figure that out, because if I go into Book 4 of that series, I’m either going to have to jump way ahead, or I am going to be smack dab in the middle of it and have to figure out how to make that a thing.

Debbi: What advice would you give to anyone who would like to make a career in writing?

Amanda: That’s a great question. I’m also an athlete. I’m a runner. I do yoga, and I believe that everything that we do, we get better at if we continue the discipline. Writing is a discipline, and there was no better preparation for me than being a TV reporter, so I would say get a job where you have to write all the time as much as possible. As a journalism professor, I am definitely seeing how a lot of the skill set for writing has just fallen by the wayside, and I don’t know if that’s related to the pandemic. I don’t know if that’s related to the fact that everything is shorthand now in texting and even email and social media, but writing is an art and good writing – and I don’t mean just writing a book or writing a screenplay or writing a podcast, I mean writing a letter. I mean writing a paragraph.

I believe that everything that we do, we get better at if we continue the discipline. Writing is a discipline, and there was no better preparation for me than being a TV reporter, so I would say get a job where you have to write all the time as much as possible.If you want to engage people and share a message, whether it’s nonfiction or fiction, you have to be a good writer. I just think that it is a constant thing in my life of always trying to improve my skill set. And you know when you write something and it’s just spot on and you feel great, and you know when you write something and it’s not great. I think we all know that. So my advice would be to write, and obviously we all have to make a living. I know when I graduated from college, I told my parents I was just going to go be a writer and write books, and they said respectfully, no, you’re not. You’re going to get a job. So I put all these things that I enjoyed together. I was always involved in theater and writing, and I thought, wow, TV reporting! That might be fun. That was 35 years ago, so it worked out for me. But I would just say, encourage them no matter what kind of writing it is. Just if you want to be a writer, get a job that involves writing, and then work on your personal stuff on the side.

Debbi: Great advice. Thank you very much. Is there anything else you would like to add before we finish up?

Amanda: No. I think that I love the fact that you’re doing a podcast about writing and about authors because I feel like so many people don’t read anymore. I will tell you that I did go for a long period of time where I didn’t read much, but now I’m getting back into it and it’s just such a joy and it’s the most relaxing thing. I think the fact that we live in a world where everything is going so fast, if you could just take a little bit of time every day to read, I think it’s so good for your brain. It’s so good for anxiety. It’s so good for your imagination, and I just love it. I did just remember one of the British authors, Ruth Ware.

Debbi: Oh yeah.

Amanda: She’s one of the ones I really enjoy. I always have a book going now. Always. Never go anywhere without a book.

Debbi: Amen to that.

Amanda: Yeah, I’ve moved away. I do audio books as well, but I’ve moved away from the electronic book. I just like having the book and so I’m always reading a book.

Debbi: I’m the same. I can put an eBook out there. I’ll read an eBook, but there’s nothing like that print book in your hands somehow.

Amanda: Exactly. And I do know people who don’t read. I have people in my life who don’t read, and I just think about what they’re missing. If everything were to go down, if our electrical grid went down, if the internet went down, the readers, we know we’re going to be okay.

Debbi: Exactly. That’s right.

Amanda: Because we have something to do to occupy our minds, and there would never be enough time to read all the books I want to read.

Debbi: Yes, exactly. Well, I want to thank you for being here today. Thank you so much.

Amanda: Oh gosh. It’s been a joy. Thank you for having me.

Debbi: It was my pleasure. Before we go, I will just put in a quick plug for my new podcast or the one I’m doing in cooperation with F. R. Jameson. We discuss film noir every month at Dark and Twisted Alleys, a Film Noir podcast. And next up on that is going to be the movie Out of the Past, which is a fantastic movie, so don’t miss our discussion. Also, if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review. If you would like to become a supporter of the podcast, please check out the Patreon page for our podcast, where you can get bonus episodes, ad-free episodes and other things. In the meantime, our next guest will be Steffanie Moyers. Until then, take care and happy reading.

Get early access and more! Support the podcast!

View Details

Our guest for this episode of the Crime Cafe podcast is Southern Gothic mystery writer Faye Snowden.

Check out our discussion of her Killing Series and what inspires her to write.

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

We also have a shop now. Check it out!

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

The transcript can be downloaded here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. Today I’m pleased to have with me the author of a series of dark Southern Gothic mysteries with strong and flawed female characters. She’s going to give away a copy of her first book,A Killing Fire, and her second bookA Killing Rain was named by CrimeReads as one of the best Southern Gothic mysteries of 2022. She also won and has been long-listed for various writing awards. So it is my great pleasure to have with me today Faye Snowden. Hi Faye, how are you doing?

Faye: Hi there. Fine, Debbi. How are you?

Debbi: Good, thank you. And I need to put you in the spotlight if I can manage to do that. I am just a technological mess today. There we go. That’s much better. So, tell us about Raven Burns and the Killing Series, and what inspired you to write it?

Faye: Oh my. Certainly. This series was actually not my first. I had a mystery suspense series back in the day. But the Raven Burns series is, like you said, southern noir, complete mystery, dark mystery, and it is about a woman whose father was a serial killer. So in order to atone for his sins and to prove that she’s a good citizen, she decides to become a homicide detective to right his wrongs in that small town, made up fictional town. She lives in Byrd’s Landing, Louisiana that seems for some reason have a lot of serial killers and she has to spend an inordinate amount of time chasing them. So the series is actually based on – what is it, the four? Is it the four? Oh, I’m kind of drawing a blank there. But it’s based on fire, water, soil, and then air.

She lives in Byrd’s Landing, Louisiana that seems for some reason have a lot of serial killers and she has to spend an inordinate amount of time chasing them.

So the first book in the series is A Killing Fire, and then the second book is A Killing Rain, which is out now. I’m working on A Killing Breath as we speak, and then the last book is A Killing Soil. And in each book, Raven is going to learn something about herself that’s either going to push her to be a good citizen of Byrd’s Landing, Louisiana, or become more like her father.

And in each book, Raven is going to learn something about herself that’s either going to push her to be a good citizen of Byrd’s Landing, Louisiana, or become more like her father.

Debbi: Oh, wow. I’m really hearing some interesting themes that people are basing their series on lately. I’ve heard the Seven Deadly Sins, now the Four Elements.

Faye: The Elements, right.

Debbi: Earth, wind, fire, water.

Faye: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Debbi: Wow.

Faye: I got the idea for the book because – I tell this story all the time, my poor dad – but I am a child of divorce. My mom, who’s since passed away – she died in 2015 – but she did not have a fondness for my dad after the divorce, and she would disparage him in front of us. I looked a lot like my dad. I favored him a lot, and I used to look in the mirror and say, well, if my dad’s a something and something, what does that make me? What kind of person does that make me? And you know, a writer’s mind just takes off sometimes, the imagination. I said, oh, you know, that would be a neat character to write, but you have to up the stakes. So it’s like, what if her dad’s a serial killer? And so it just kind of snowballed from there and then I had an idea and a book and so forth.

Debbi: Wow. That is intriguing though, the premise there. The idea of a detective who’s motivated by the fact that her father was a serial killer.

Faye: Yes.

Debbi: I thought that was very intriguing. So what are you working on now?

Faye: What I’m working on now is short stories, and I just think the short story form just really helps you hone the craft. I have a short story now that’s out in the Best American Mystery and Suspense called “The Obsession of Abel Tangier”. I just try to do them in my spare time, but what I’m working on now as far as this series is concerned, I’m working on the third book in the series. It’s going to be called A Killing Breath. I am almost ready to submit the first 50 pages to my agent and my editor to see if it’s a go. Let’s hope that it is. But it’s been just a joy to work on.

What I’m working on now is short stories, and I just think the short story form just really helps you hone the craft.

Debbi: That’s great. That’s wonderful. Is there kind of an overarching journey that you see Raven going on throughout the series? Does she reach a kind of closure at some point?

Faye: I do, and I’d like to think that it mirrors the journey that we go on through life, I mean, my journey. I can only speak from my perspective, but you know when you’re young and you have all these doubts about who you are and you don’t know who you are, I constantly ask myself, am I a good person? Am I kind of a good person? I think I’m a good person. I’m not sure. And then as you get older, you become more sure about that, more sure about who you are, more sure about your values until you reach a point. And I’d like to think I reached that point where you are okay in your skin. So the journey that Raven’s going on is to determine, to get to that place where she’s okay in her skin. However, what’s going to be different from Raven is that, like I said at the end of the series, her moral compass may be way off from the moral compass of us law-abiding citizens. I mean, you may still want to go have a beer with her, but you may not want to trust her with your bank account.

I’d like to think that it mirrors the journey that we go on through life, I mean, my journey. I can only speak from my perspective,

Debbi: Wow.

Faye: So that’s the arc, but I don’t know how it’s going to end because she is influenced by her father, and then by people constantly telling her that she’s evil and her thinking that she’s evil, and so she’s got all of that to sort out. She’s wrestling with that dark place inside her and trying to figure out how to kind of incorporate that into something useful.

Debbi: Interesting.

Faye: Yeah.

Debbi: So along with writing fiction, I see that you teach. You’ve been a guest lecturer for writing courses as well as teaching information technology. I thought that was intriguing.

Faye: Yes, my day job. I say it’s the only job I know aside from writing is I’ve been in information technology my entire career. The last maybe 10 years or so, I’ve been in project management, so sometimes I’ll teach a university course on project management. And then, because I’m still really in contact with my professors, they will ask me to come in and do a lecture on writing courses, on writing or the business of writing or just readings and those types of things.

Debbi: That’s really interesting. I went to library school. I have a library science degree.

Faye: Oh wow!

Debbi: It’s an old library science degree at this point, but nonetheless, so I am a fan of librarians, I have to tell you. And I am in awe of people who do good jobs on information technology, so well done, you.

Faye: Thank you.

Debbi: I was looking around for information about Southern Gothic mysteries, so I did a little Google search and this article pops up from CrimeReads, and I’m reading through it and it’s like, whoa, this is so good. And I’m reading through it, and I get to the bottom and guess who wrote it? It was you. I have to say that was a nice article you wrote.

Faye: Oh, thank you. Yeah.

Debbi: Can you talk a little bit about what you said about Southern Gothic mystery in that article?

Faye: Oh, I certainly can. The origins of Southern Gothic of course has its origins in the Gothic stories that were told in England way back when, and it has certain elements. What I said in the article is that the genre traveled across the pond and of course, you know the Americans. We put our own little spin on it. So what the Gothic or the Gothic genre, the Southern Gothic genre does, usually stories that are set in the south, but it’s really heavy on the subtext. So it’s the kind of stories that will kind of make the reader feel uneasy because of what it is saying and what it’s not saying, so there’s an element of corruption in it, especially religious corruption. Like in Gothic stories, the action happening in some old haunted mansion, the whole south becomes that haunted place or that dark place where the stories happen. It’s about the return of the repressed, things that as a society we don’t like to think about or talk about, but it’s there in the undertones of the story.

The origins of Southern Gothic of course has its origins in the Gothic stories that were told in England way back when, and it has certain elements. … We put our own little spin on it. So what the Gothic or the Gothic genre, the Southern Gothic genre does, usually stories that are set in the south, but it’s really heavy on the subtext.

For example, in the book A Killing Fire, the parish that the town is set in, the imaginary town, if somebody said, okay, Faye, what parish in Louisiana, because Louisiana has parishes, I would say in Caddo parish. And I read once – I don’t know how true this is – but that area of the country had more lynchings than any other country. And yet we build a town on top of that. We build all our societal structures without ever dealing with that, so this bubbles up. In Gothic fiction, these things that we don’t like to think about or talk about kind of bubbles up in the stories that you read. You may see things like incest or talk about incest or the damsel in distress, that kind of thing. There may be elements of the supernatural. So in the second book A Killing Rain, it’s a mystery, no paranormal elements, but there are things in there that happen that can’t be explained. If I were to sum it up in a nutshell, it’s about stories that we as a society tell about ourselves. However, with that dark undertone that surfaces things that we don’t like to think about.

If I were to sum it up in a nutshell, it’s about stories that we as a society tell about ourselves. However, with that dark undertone that surfaces things that we don’t like to think about.

Debbi: Yeah. It’s interesting how much crossover there is between that kind of crime writing and hardboiled mystery and film noir.

Faye: Yes. Oh yes, yes.

Debbi: They all seem to kind of come together at some point in this big Venn diagram. There’s a part where they all kind of intersect. How much research do you do when you’re writing a book?

Faye: A lot. For A Killing Fire, I did a lot of research about the town that I wanted to model my fictional town on, about Louisiana, and I grew up in Louisiana, so it was kind of learning a little bit about where I grew up. I do just enough research that helps me drive my storyline when I’m doing it in a healthy way. When I start doing the research and I’m saying, oh my goodness, I can do this in the story, it goes to my plot and then I pretty much stop at that point. But sometimes I’m a procrastinator, so sometimes I do so much research to keep from writing, and I get paralysis analysis of that and that’s when I know that I need to stop.

For A Killing Fire, I did a lot of research about the town that I wanted to model my fictional town on, about Louisiana, and I grew up in Louisiana, so it was kind of learning a little bit about where I grew up.

Debbi: Yeah. It’s easy, too easy for you to get sucked down that old rabbithole of research online. Boy, I tell you.

Faye: It goes and goes.

Debbi: It does indeed. What authors have most inspired you to write and who do you love to read?

Faye: Oh my goodness. The authors that have inspired me to write. I would just say the classics, because I am an English major. My favorite book in the world if somebody said, lay It down, let us know, would be Ralph Ellison, the Invisible Man. Invisible Man, Ralph Ellison. And then Toni Morrison, of course. Was a big fan of Alice Walker, and then another one. She wrote The Street, and I can’t – oh my God. I can’t believe I’m forgetting her name – I think it starts with Ann, but The Street is a really, really good book. Zora Neale Hurston also and then Faulkner. Love William Faulkner. So when you say the classics, that’s it. But contemporary writers, Tracy Clark is a great writer. Right now I think she has a book out that’s called Hide. Another one who is knocking my socks off these days, S. A. Cosby.

The authors that have inspired me to write. I would just say the classics, because I am an English major. My favorite book in the world if somebody said, lay It down, let us know, would be Ralph Ellison, Invisible Man.

Debbi: Oh boy. Yeah.

Faye: Really, really good. I don’t know if you interviewed him, and he’s such a nice person, so it’s good to see all that wrapped up together.

Debbi: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I have to say, I read Blacktop, uh …

Faye: Wasteland.

Debbi: Wasteland, thank you, way back when it first came out. It was submitted as part of the Hammett submissions. And to me, that was one of the ones that really stood out for me. And I thought, wow, this book could be made into a movie.

Faye: Yeah. And it is being, as I understand, yeah.

Debbi: I’m not surprised. I’m not at all surprised. Wow! Great book. If someone adopted your books, say The Killing Series, into a television show or film, who could you picture playing Raven?

Faye: Oh my goodness. Do you know the woman who’s in The Big Sky? I don’t know her name.

Debbi: I don’t know The Big Sky.

Faye: Big Sky, CJ Box’s series. It got adapted to television. The Big Sky. It’s set in Wyoming, I believe, or in the Plains states, but she would be to me a great person that could play Raven. I just love that actor. She’s really good.

Debbi: Cool. What advice would you give to anyone who is interested in a writing career?

Faye: Yeah, that’s a tough one. I get asked that question all the time, but that’s a really tough question because it has a really tough answer. The first advice I would give is that they need to read, read not only the stuff that they want to write, but they need to read widely in all different genres, all different – fiction, nonfiction – just read. Kind of learn how sentences are put together, how stories are told, the elements of story, and you can get a lot of that through reading. The other thing is that when you’re writing, know that your first and second and maybe not even your third draft, may be ready for prime time. So you have to write the best story that you can write and just focus on that and not focus on oh my goodness, I can’t wait till the fan letters come in because I wrote. You have to be that. And then the other one is that – I hesitate to say this because it is hard. Writing – and I just said it in the blog post I think.

The first advice I would give is that they need to read, read not only the stuff that they want to write, but they need to read widely in all different genres, all different – fiction, nonfiction – just read.

Debbi: I saw it. Yeah.

Faye: I think it’s hard so you have to make time for it and make time. You have to miss out on some things, so you really have to get over that fear of missing out, that FOMO.

Debbi: Yeah. I think that is so true. I don’t know about you, but when it comes to writing, I need to kind of shut out everything else and just do it. I can’t be checking my email, I can’t be looking online all the time. I can’t be doing Instagram or anything else. I have to be writing. People I don’t think really quite appreciate just how much your life gets consumed by all this.

Faye: It does, it does.

Debbi: It really, really does.

Faye: Yeah, and especially when you have a day job, because I have a really intense day job and having to go into your office or wherever you write after you’ve been doing a lot of heavy brain work all day is tough.

Debbi: Oh my gosh. I really admire people who have a day job and can write. How do you manage your time? What kind of writing schedule do you keep?

Faye: When I’m being really good, which I’m just starting being really good, because I really want to finish this Killing Breath, I make appointments with myself. For example, I used to take a lot of classes, extra classes. I’m like, Hey, if you can go to basket weaving class every Tuesday and Thursday from six to nine o’clock, you can write every Tuesday and Thursday from six to nine o’clock. So I just set those appointments and I keep those appointments, and even if I go in the office and stare at my computer, I do that. And then eventually I’ll get bored of doing that because I don’t let myself go online, then I’ll start working on what I need to work on. And then usually I have a schedule maybe like seven in the morning till twelve or one on the weekends, and that’s because that’s when all the kiddos and my grandkids who live with me start getting up and then I’m not missing out on spending any time with them. So basically making a schedule and keeping to that schedule.

I’m like, Hey, if you can go to basket weaving class every Tuesday and Thursday from six to nine o’clock, you can write every Tuesday and Thursday from six to nine o’clock.

Debbi: Yeah. That’s really kind of what you have to do, isn’t it?

Faye: Yes, most definitely.

Debbi: Very, very important. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Faye: I think the one thing I add is writing is serious business, but don’t take it too seriously. Remember you are writing to tell a good story, to have fun, write what you like to read and give yourself some grace while you’re doing it. So that’s probably what I would want to finish up with.

I think the one thing I add is writing is serious business, but don’t take it too seriously.

Debbi: That is excellent advice, I have to say. The best. Really give yourself a break there. It’s not brain science.

Faye: Right.

Debbi: It’s not brain surgery or rocket science.

Faye: Right.

Debbi: Nobody’s going to die, Literally if you write the wrong word. It all works out somehow

Faye: It does. It does. Yeah.

Debbi: Awesome. Well, this has been great. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Faye: Oh, you’re welcome. And thank you for inviting me. It’s been a great time.

Debbi: Well, it was a pleasure having you here, and thank you so much for everything you’ve said because it’s so true. Writing is hard and it’s important to have a schedule and all of those things. So for everyone listening just so you know, I have launched another podcast, if you can believe that. This one is a podcast on film noir that I’m co-hosting with crime writer F. R. Jameson. We discuss one film noir a month, and for our first episode, we’re discussing Double Indemnity, a real classic, so we’re giving you the good stuff.

The next episode is going to be on Out of the Past, which is really a wild movie, so stay tuned for that. Anyway, just thought I would mention that. And if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and consider supporting us on Patreon. We are a Patreon-supported podcast. In the meantime, I’ll just say thanks for listening and next time our guest will be Amanda Lamb. In the meantime, take care and happy reading.

Become a patron for early, ad-free episodes of the Crime Cafe and more.

View Details

Our guest for this episode is thriller author Leanne Kale Sparks.

Check out the podcast to hear more about her Kendall Beck series and the authors who inspire her, amongst other things.

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

We also have a shop now. Check it out!

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

The transcript can be downloaded here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. Our guest today had a short career in law before turning to writing a series of thrillers featuring FBI agent Kendall Beck. Her books are set in the Rocky Mountains of Colorado, which is a really cool place. I love that. She currently resides in Texas with her husband and two dogs – a German shepherd named Zoe and her Corgi named Wynn. It’s my pleasure to welcome today Leanne Kale Sparks. Hi, Leanne.

Leanne: Hi.

Debbi: I’m so glad you could be with us today.

Leanne: Me too. This is exciting.

Debbi: Excellent. Wonderful. I, too, had a career in law before I started writing full-time.

Leanne: I think there’s a lot of us.

Debbi: I think there are quite a few of us who left the profession in a kind of “we gotta do something else” feeling. You were fortunate in making yours a short career though, as you’ve described it. How long were you practicing law, and what kind of law did you practice?

Leanne: Well, I did a little bit of everything in that short amount of time. I did a little bit of family law and …

Debbi: Oh, God!

Leanne: I did a little bit of estates, but that was short-term. Mostly, it was criminal defense.

Debbi: Ah. I’m telling you, family law right there will turn you off to the idea of doing more.

Leanne: It’s the most dangerous profession. Everybody thinks it’s the criminal lawyers that get it. It’s family law.

Debbi: Not at all, because at least the clients understand you’re dealing with a certain type of system. People going through divorce, acrimonious ones just go temporarily insane. That’s my theory. It’s temporary insanity.

Leanne: And you’re taking away kids and money, two of the things that people value the most. In criminal defense, most of your clients, they know they’re guilty. They have probably been in the system before, and so they know what’s going on.

Debbi: Their expectations are well managed right from the start. Oh my. What inspired you to write the Kendall Beck series?

Leanne: I lived in Maryland at the time, and I had a friend who had retired from the FBI, and he used to be the person that was in charge of the criminal part of the FBI, the investigations. I had gone online and looked, and there was this really interesting department or group within it, a unit, and they did Crimes Against Children. And so I talked to this guy and I’m like, Hey, can you get me in to see them or talk to them, or have somebody just answer some questions? He pulled some strings and I was able to meet up with some actual agents that work in the unit.

It was a while ago and it just always stuck with me, and I thought, I need to have a character. The Wrong Woman started out as a short story just to see if I could actually write a crime thriller, and get all of the red herrings. The first versions of this, it was just like this person died and then we investigated, and yay, I figured it out, so I had to learn a lot about red herrings and things like that, so it kind of evolved. But I really did want Kendall to be involved in the Crimes Against Children, because I really think it’s important now. My books don’t focus on that. I don’t talk about any of the icky, really icky. I don’t go in depth with any of it, but it’s there and it’s an important part. I loved the idea of Kendall and the more I got to write her and everything, the more she kind of just really blossomed and became the sarcastic FBI agent that she is.

The Wrong Woman started out as a short story just to see if I could actually write a crime thriller, and get all of the red herrings.

Debbi: Cool. So it’s more about her being an FBI agent than necessarily the children angle.

Leanne: Yes. Well, it’s usually a backstory. I say that in Book One, it’s a backstory. It’s like a subplot about her finding this girl and figuring out what’s happened to her, and how that kind of all evolves, and it crossed paths with the murder of her best friend. And so we get this kind of unofficial partnership between Kendall Beck, who’s the FBI agent, and then the homicide detective in Denver, Adam Taylor. They start working together to figure out who killed her best friend, Gwen. Then in Book Two, it is all about the kids and they’re trying to find a missing child.

Debbi: Okay. So you’ve got two books so far out?

Leanne: There’s two books in the series, yes.

Debbi: Excellent. And how many books do you plan to write? Do you have a plan for the series in terms of the number of books and where you want to go with it?

Leanne: When I started out, it was four, so when I get to that point, then I’ll reconsider and see if people are still interested in hearing from Kendall and seeing what her and Adam can get up to, then I’ll definitely keep writing it as long as people want to read it. But I did have a four-book series planned out, and a lot of that is because there’s not a cliffhanger, but there’s a dangler in one of the books that I finally take care of at the end.

I did have a four-book series planned out, and a lot of that is because there’s not a cliffhanger, but there’s a dangler in one of the books that I finally take care of at the end.

Debbi: Okay. So you have kind of a plan in terms of story arc for the four books.

Leanne: For the four books, yeah.

Debbi: Have you considered writing another series at any point?

Leanne: I have actually. I’ve started writing another series in the meantime. I guess, why not?

Debbi: Why not? Yes.

Leanne: There’s still daylight. I can write another series, and it, of course, is also based in Colorado. It’s a fictitious town in the mountains, so it’s a small town, and of course you know how small towns are. They’re apparently magnets for murders. So I’m working on that, so I think that is cool. She’s a lot of fun too. She’s not like Kendall, but I can’t not write a sarcastic character, so she’s got a little bit of sarcasm in her too, but she’s a little bit more quirky in different ways than Kendall is.

Debbi: Well, I love sarcasm. It’s great, great stuff in a protagonist.

Leanne: It’s my second language.

Debbi: Awesome! Does the environment play a significant part in your stories, because you’re sitting in this fabulous natural setting, the Rockies?

Leanne: I grew up in Colorado, so I’ve always loved it. I moved away when I got married. I was younger – in my twenties – and haven’t lived back there since, so this is kind of my touchstone, plus it gets me to go back there for writing retreats and stuff like that, so it’s really important to me. I really do love the setting. There’s so much to do. I set Kendall Beck in Denver, and I did that because of what she does. There are two major interstates that go through Denver, and so a lot of trafficking can happen that way, so I thought that that was a really good place that I could do some things there. It’s big enough that I could get away with faking things a little bit and playing around with them but yeah, it’s definitely … I love the mountains. There’s a reason they call it Colorful Colorado. It’s gorgeous and so I’m still learning to pull it in more as a character. Book One, it was more about the characters, developing the characters and stuff. In Book Two, I think I pull in the scenery and the setting more, and trying to make that more its own character, a hard thing to do.

Debbi: And your idea for a mystery or whatever set in a small Colorado town in the mountains, I can easily picture that because my brother lived in a very small town on Peak to Peak Highway. I don’t know if you are familiar.

Leanne: Oh, wow.

Debbi: Yeah. It was a tiny little place. He used to talk about mountain lions appearing in front of his house or whatever. It was like, what??

Leanne: Yeah. I grew up in Colorado Springs, and it’s a big city now, but even now you can still get wildlife. When I was growing up, there were a lot of times where you would see wildlife and stuff, especially when you got outside of the city, if you lived outside of the city a little bit. So it’s a lot of fun.

Debbi: Oh wow! Yeah. It’s a cool place. I really love Colorado. How much research do you do when writing your books, and what kind?

Leanne: I do a lot. A lot of it is, unless it’s something specific, I usually try to do Google searches, or I have a bunch of reference books that I use. I go to conferences. My favorite one is Writers’ Police Academy because you get just so much information from there on real-life law enforcement and crime scenes and all sorts of things. I usually start with a Google search, and see what I can find from there. I have got a bunch of Facebook groups that I’m involved with, that you can ask a doctor or ask a law enforcement agent and if they don’t know, they know how to get the information. Sometimes I reach out directly to someone that I know.

I do have a couple of law enforcement agents in Colorado that I can contact for Colorado law specific things. Sometimes you’re like, hey, how would you do this? Would it be like this? And they’re like, no, we would never do that or something like that. So, I think a lot of research, I’m a plotter. I’m a big plotter, so I tend to do a lot of research while I’m plotting out the book, and not as much when I’m writing it. I mean, there’s still the odd time where you’re like, oh, I want to put this in and you get up and you look for it or you ask somebody. But most of it’s done upfront. I think in law enforcement, there’s so many people now with the … everybody’s into true crime and thrillers are just huge, and the CSI and everything.

I’m a big plotter, so I tend to do a lot of research while I’m plotting out the book, and not as much when I’m writing it.

People are very knowledgeable. Readers are really knowledgeable about things that happen in law enforcement and DNA and stuff, and so they will call you out on it if you don’t have it pretty much correct. I’m not writing a textbook about police procedures and investigations, so there are some times that you have to skirt the line of – well, for the story, I have to do this for the story, and just hope that people will go along for the ride.

Debbi: Yeah. You’re allowed a certain amount of artistic license there.

Leanne: Yeah.

Debbi: I think people expect it.

Leanne: Yeah.

Debbi: How would you describe your writing to someone who has never read your work?

Leanne: I really love dialogue. I love banter between characters, so I tend to have a lot of dialogue in it. I love really creating characters that stick with you, that you feel like you can go out and have a cup of coffee with or you want to hang out with, so I love the character part of the stories. And of course, I’m always into crime and stuff, but it’s really trying to figure out how to make these relationships and these characters work together and so you can carry that on throughout.

I really love dialogue. I love banter between characters, so I tend to have a lot of dialogue in it.

Debbi: And the thriller aspect of your writing. What kinds of thrillers are you writing? How would you describe them?

Leanne: Mostly, I do murder mysteries. Those are probably my favorite things to write about murder, and then kidnapping secondary. So the great part about it is that you try and find something new that doesn’t cross the line into something that’s just too gross, that’s just too far, so it’s really kind of a fun job that we have, just trying to figure out where that line is and pushing up against it. It’s interesting to go and see. There’s so much interesting information out there with real crimes. I think that most of the crime that is committed is way stranger than anything we could write and people don’t believe it.

I was watching this thing today while I was sitting there and I was just flabbergasted. I was like, how do people do this? It’s kind of fun to delve into the minds of killers or something, and I think for readers it’s the same way, because we would never in a million years think about why would somebody do that? Why? What drives somebody to be that cruel? Like, for instance, serial killers who have a plan and have a reason and things like that, and what drives that person, because it’s not anything that we would ever consider doing. So you really want to get into the mind and see what it’s like. I do like writing from the killer’s point of view a lot. I’ve had a few people say that I do that really well, which is kind of scary but also cool. Couple of times they’re just like, yeah, you write that a little too well.

Debbi: Oh my gosh. Well, that’s interesting. An interesting thought. Yeah, I have had those moments where I thought, do I really show this to somebody? Do they really want to see this? I don’t know, man. What authors have most inspired your writing?

Leanne: Harlan Coben is one of my favorites, and I think I read him and thought, well, he kind of has sarcastic and funny characters. They have funny lines. And so when you’re thinking of a thriller, you’re thinking oh, it’s all serious and stuff, but I learned there that it’s okay to have those funny moments, the humor because you have to, because especially the darker that you’re going to get, you have to have those moments where even the reader can have a release valve on the tension and the suspense. I really like him for that. I love Karin Slaughter for psychological thrillers. I love Loreth Anne White, and she’s just amazing. I love her work. So those are probably my favorites right there.

Debbi: And you have a protagonist who works with a local police officer, correct?

Leanne: Yes.

Debbi: So that’s the FBI and local police working together. Do they have contention in their relationship, or do they tend to get along well?

Leanne: I made Kendall very strong. She’s very strong. She doesn’t really fit the mold of most women. She’s in this business where she sees horrible things that happen every day, so she’s very strong, she’s independent. I like that about her. She doesn’t take anything from anyone, and she gets in fights all the time with people so she’s always kind of one step away from getting fired, so she’s that kind. Adam, he’s very good at what he does. He’s very empathetic, so he’s kind of on the opposite side. In the beginning, they do, and especially in Book Two, they really do, because it is his niece that goes missing. And so she’s like, this is my job. This is what I do so you back off, and he can’t, because it’s his niece and he’s in law enforcement. So that book, they really have a lot of contention.

I made Kendall very strong. She’s very strong. She doesn’t really fit the mold of most women. She’s in this business where she sees horrible things that happen every day, so she’s very strong, she’s independent.

But yeah, in the first book too, they get along well. They become friends, but there’s also this crossing of lines that they each are like, back off. You’re in my area and this is my area and the other one’s like, no, I know what I’m doing. I thought I needed to do that. I hope I didn’t overplay it because I don’t think that’s how it really is. I think they do work together a lot, especially in the Crimes Against Children unit, they work closely with local law enforcement because they know what’s going on in the communities better than the FBI. They have their confidential informants and things, and they’re just in the community more so you have to have that working relationship, that good working relationship. But you have to create tension and you don’t always want it to be about the crime. I think that that’s a good way to kind of create some tension, but they also have a lot of humor between them. They’re both very sarcastic.

I sometimes go overboard with the law enforcement humor because I did do criminal prosecution or criminal defense work. You kind of get to know what … you have jokes that you say that you would never say outside the office, or to anybody outside of law enforcement or in that world. But I do like it. I think it really kind of shows, and it’s true. That’s their release valve. So I try to be true to that without going overboard.

Debbi: Exactly. Yeah. There’s a lot of that kind of gallows humor.

Leanne: Yes, definitely.

Debbi: In police work, in lawyering, in emergency services, things of that nature. All those things. Probably medicine.

Leanne: Yeah, I would think so.

Debbi: Yeah, I would think so. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in pursuing a writing career?

Leanne: Try to write a book. Sit down and try and write it, because it seems really easy when you’re sitting there and you’re like, well, it’s like a movie in my head but it’s hard when you get to the point where I don’t know where to go from here. So if you can get through those humps and actually get through it, I would do that. It has to be something that you love to do, because you don’t write a book and then it becomes a bestseller. It’s just not the way it works. Especially now with all the indie and self-publishing, there’s a ton of stuff on the market, so you really have to work. And if you’re going to go indie, you better be able to do a lot of the work yourself, because you’re doing your whole business, which is why I like traditional publishing. Even though you still have to do a lot yourself, there are some things that they take on and so that’s helpful.

Try to write a book. Sit down and try and write it, because it seems really easy when you’re sitting there and you’re like, well, it’s like a movie in my head but it’s hard when you get to the point where I don’t know where to go from here.

I think I would say that you really have to … I remember when I decided I wanted to write and didn’t want to do law anymore, and I would stay up until two or three in the morning writing the story. It was just burning in me. I will never publish that story. It’s awful. But I had to write it. I had to write it, and I think that’s what you have to have, and it is hard to maintain that, because especially when it does start to become a business. If you’re going to make it a business, fine. If you just want to be a writer, then write. And if you don’t want to ever publish, do that, because that’s when you still have fun writing. It’s when it becomes a business and you have contracts and you have deadlines that you have to meet, that you really have to want to get that story out.

So if you can get through those humps and actually get through it, I would do that. It has to be something that you love to do, because you don’t write a book and then it becomes a bestseller. It’s just not the way it works.

It really has to be burning in you to get out, because to get through those humps – I hate to say writer’s block – but those walls that you hit up against and you’re like, I don’t know. I don’t know where to go, and I can’t think of anything. You sit there and you’re like, what are words? I don’t even, I can’t even come up with anything to actually say, and so it can be very frustrating. It’s lonely. You better want to be alone, because you don’t write with people. We go to writers’ retreats and that’s nice. You get that camaraderie. But most writers are kind of like, oh, yeah, let’s go, let’s hang out, and we’re together for about five hours and we’re like, okay, get away from me. I’m done being social, and I want to go in my room and sit and just be alone.

So, you have your communities and you have your friends. It’s very important to have writer friends that you can talk to, because nobody understands this business. I mean, you get into it. My husband is still trying to figure it out. I’ll be talking about stuff, and he’s just like, well, just do this or do that. And I’m like, just let me talk. He doesn’t get it, but you need that. You need that support system. But it is a very solitary existence when you’re writing, because you’re in your head. You’re in your head the whole time.

It’s very important to have writer friends that you can talk to, because nobody understands this business. … You need that support system.

Debbi: That’s so true. That is absolutely true. We make it look much easier than it is, and that is kind of a problem in a sense. People need to know that there’s a lot of work involved in creating a book, creating fiction or nonfiction. There’s a whole lot of work.

Leanne: I think it’s also a lot of trying to figure out your writing style, your writing process. For me, that’s been kind of the hardest part because I always thought I need to do it one way and just keep doing it, and that’s the way I always do it. And so I finally figured out that’s not how I write. So sometimes I’m writing all over whiteboards. Sometimes I’m using sticky notes. Sometimes I have legal pads, tons and tons and tons of legal pads. And then the area that I’m sitting in. Sometimes I want to sit here. So for this book, I’m doing it all at the kitchen table, which drives my husband crazy, because then I have sticky notes all over the place and we can’t use the kitchen table till I’m done. That’s also part of it too, and it’s realizing when it’s okay to not be like everybody else and figure it out. So I think that’s pretty important too.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Leanne: Well, I have a big giveaway that we’re doing. I’m going to give away a signed copy of The Wrong Woman and an FBI mug, and of course, coffee that Kendall loves, and some other little goodies. So if you want to go to my socials on Facebook, my author page, TikTok or Instagram, and follow me and let me know, and we’ll get you registered. Really, I think what I’d love for people to do is everybody loves the big names.I mentioned I love Harlan Coben, I love Karin Slaughter. I challenge readers to find somebody that they have never heard of. Find a book that sounds interesting from an author that you don’t know and give it a try because you might find your next favorite. You may not. You may decide that that’s not the writing style that you like. That’s where I think it is because there are a lot of us that can’t pump a lot of money into marketing and things, and so we’re trying to get our name out there as much as we can with social media and stuff, but there’s a lot of us authors out there.

I challenge readers to find somebody that they have never heard of. Find a book that sounds interesting from an author that you don’t know and give it a try because you might find your next favorite.

Debbi: There sure are.

Leanne: And if you just go in with the big names, I think you’re missing out on some stories that really would blow your mind. So that’s my challenge. Find an author and read them and then let them know.

Debbi: Yes. Boy, you’ve nailed it. I think that is so true. Part of what I want to do here is to shine a spotlight on people that you might not have otherwise heard of, so I’m really glad you said that. That is a great point. Thank you.

Leanne: You’re welcome.

Debbi: Thank you again for being here today. I really appreciate your time.

Leanne: Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it.

Debbi: It was a pleasure. Oh, thank you. It was my pleasure, believe me. On that note, I just want to remind everyone to please either like our YouTube channel or leave a review for the podcast. It would be greatly appreciated. You can also access my novels in chapter by chapter form, as well as bonus episodes and more when you support the podcast on Patreon. Check out our Patreon page today. I even have a weekly newsletter – no, I’m sorry – a monthly newsletter that I’m working up and have been doing for the last few months. So check that out as well. Until next time, when our guest will be Faye Snowden, I just want to say take care and happy reading.

For early access to ad-free episodes and more, become a patron!

View Details

This episode of the Crime Cafe features my interview with crime writer Melissa Yi.

Don’t miss our discussion of her Dr. Hope Sze series and the Seven Deadly Sins!

And the play Terminally Ill!

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

We also have a shop now. Check it out!

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

The transcript can be downloaded here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today is a doctor who studied emergency medicine and works in emergency rooms, I presume. She has received many accolades for her work, including a Derringer Award for best short story of 2023, and finalist for the Silver Falchion for best thriller. She also writes medical humor – which I find fascinating and want to know more about – and has won speculative fiction awards as well. It’s my pleasure to have with me today Melissa Yi. Hi, Melissa. Thanks so much for being with us today.

Melissa: Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for having me.

Debbi: Well, it’s my pleasure to have you on, believe me, and your background just fascinates me. I used to be an EMT and my husband was a firefighter. He’s retired now, so I can thoroughly appreciate the whole hectic thing involving emergency rooms, what that must be like. Do you still practice medicine?

Melissa: I do. Not as much as I did, but I still like to keep my hand in.

Debbi: Excellent.

Melissa: I just have to say good for you guys, because now you can sleep. The nights are so hard.

Debbi: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I remember getting up in the middle of the night to go on calls and it was like, whoa! I mean, sometimes those five in the morning ones were the worst, right before the dawn. I would get into the back of the ambulance and would just feel nauseous. I couldn’t explain that.

Melissa: Oh, that’s because that’s a very physical job also. For me, I would say 3:00, 4:00 AM is tough because you’ve been working so long, but there’s still so much to go. To me, 5:00, 6:00 people are starting to wake up. Normal people are alive at this time, it’s not so bad. You might start to get some sort of backup, but the middle of the night, really, you are it, and I just find that very tough and very bad for circadian rhythms.

Debbi: Oh, yeah. Yeah, really. I was much younger then, so I could adjust to it a little more easily, I suppose. But I’ve always been sort of in awe of people who go to medical school, because I went to law school and the med school was right down the street from me. And I was like, wow, I’m so overwhelmed with work, but what if I were in med school? Oh my God! You guys have to study all these bones, all these muscles, all these nerves. It just amazes me.

Melissa: I think law school is very cognitively taxing, though. I think there’s so much involved, so that it’s a different kind of stress.

Debbi: Very much so.

Melissa: Medicine is really holding people’s lives in your hands. That’s the stressful part of medicine.

Debbi: Yes, yes. That to me has always been … you guys are really in there, doing stuff, fixing people’s medical problems, things like that. What is it that inspired you to create Dr. Hope Sze?

Melissa: Very good.

Debbi: Thank you.

Melissa: You know, for me, honestly, there were a few things. I’m from Ontario in Canada, and the medical system was relatively good when I went to medical school. People probably don’t know this, but in Canada, the federal government has the money and then they give the money to the different provinces, and when you finish medical school, you get matched anywhere in the country. You don’t have to apply everywhere, but a lot of people apply across the board so you could end up in Newfoundland to BC sort of thing. I ended up in Montreal, Quebec, which is actually not far from Ottawa, my hometown. It’s only a two hour drive away. But for me, the medical system was mind-blowingly different because it’s a different province.

First of all, the nurses had been on strike because they were amongst the lowest paid, so the morale was not good. They also had to draw all their own blood; there was no phlebotomist to do that. And I was like, wow, that’s strange. Then they started coming onto me, okay, well you do the electrocardiogram. I’m like, oh, okay. I didn’t realize that. I thought you were a nurse, sorry. She said, well, I am a nurse, and I said, oh, okay, but you don’t do electrocardiograms? She said, not on this floor. So there were all these regulations that ended up … Everything was being dumped on everybody, basically and it was really tough and for patients to just be waiting in the emergency room, and even if you’re admitted, you still have to wait for days, maybe.

Everything was so stressful that subconsciously, I think it made me think of murder. I think also that, for me, I just wanted to be able to battle something that wasn’t disease, that wasn’t bacteria or viruses, to have some sort of thing that you could physically fight and find justice. So in my head, I was like, wouldn’t it be great if there was a physician, a resident doctor like myself, who saves lives but also fights crime? And so that’s when Dr. Hope Sze was born.

I just wanted to be able to battle something that wasn’t disease, that wasn’t bacteria or viruses, to have some sort of thing that you could physically fight and find justice.

Debbi: Oh, that is so cool. I see you have a kind of a separate subseries perhaps in – what is it called – the Hope Sze Seven Deadly Sins? Is that an offshoot?

Melissa: Yes, yes, yes. The first series is finished. Those are nine novels, and the difference is – and these ones obviously are about the Seven Deadly Sins – and they also have a supernatural element. Again, I just don’t know how my mind works, but one of the main characters, Hope’s best friend, basically just turned around and said, I can talk to ghosts. And I was like, what? You never mentioned this before, but Tori, she doesn’t talk to people a lot. She keeps things very close to her chest, and so it took like seven or nine months before she told Hope that she could do this. So the last book, White Lightning, there are ghosts in it. This next series will just unleash the supernatural as well as medicine and thrillers, so just mashing everything up.

Debbi: That sounds fascinating to me. I love the idea of mixing these kinds of different genre elements in – supernatural, paranormal, mystery, medical thriller. Fantastic. I think that’s great.

Melissa: Well, I’m glad that you’re so flexible. I think for some people it would just be a big no, but for me, that’s what makes it exciting, to be able to incorporate that.

Debbi: Exactly. I love that actually. I just think it’s fantastic. Really, I love when people mix genres up. I mean, there are other books out there that I am wild about because they bring in other elements from other genres for that very reason. You obviously have a lot of professional experience working in the ER and so forth and in medicine, but are there areas that you still need to research when you write a novel?

Melissa: All the time! Oh my goodness, yes, for sure. The first book in the Seven Deadly Sin Series is Wrath. It’s called The Shapes of Wrath, and it’s set in the operating room. I was like, hey, everybody. It’s been a long time since I have been on surgery or anesthesia. Can you help me? And so there are a group of women physicians who are wonderful, wonderful, and so they stepped forward to talk to me. And I’m just like, thank God there are all these people who are smarter than me, can just fact check me the whole time, and in fact, each other. Everybody has their own area of expertise, and one of them would be say well, if it were a patent peramenovali (sp?), and then I’m saying, no, no, that would cause this instead, and it will be a whole discussion, and I would just say the final answer is …?

Debbi: Oh goodness. So where is it that you would ultimately see your series of books going? This latest one?

Melissa: Are you asking me which …?

Debbi: What’s your plan? Do you have a number?

Melissa: It’s actually interesting to me because with my previous series, I would just let my subconscious go and somehow tie things together, which was pretty interesting. But now the Seven Deadly Sins so that’s very helpful to give me something more concrete. And from the very beginning actually, I was really attracted to the idea of doing forensic psychiatry, again which I don’t have a lot of knowledge of, and a doctor in North Bay asked if I would want to visit? I’m a forensic psychiatrist and you can stay at my house. Yes, I would like that very much.

Debbi: Wow.

Melissa: So I thought about it a lot, and you probably have heard of National Novel Writing Month, where you try before write a book in a month. And so last year what I did was I tried to write a little bit of all the sins, or of the ones that I hadn’t done yet, to figure out what I was going to do for each book. I ended up deciding that I was going to do Pride last and that it was going to be forensic psychiatry. So the difference with this series is I know that some of the players from the previous novels in the series will come out and be involved in the final book,

Debbi: And what are you working on now?

Melissa: Sloth.

Debbi: Sloth. Yes.

Melissa: February 1st, I have Gluttony, which is Sugar and Vice, and that one was so much fun because I love to eat. It’s one of my big passions in life. I am somebody who, like strangers have commented on my eating. So for example, Montreal is French and has a very strong French culture. I was at a French restaurant there, and a woman came over and said, oh, I just wanted to tell you that my husband and I bake, and we were watching you eat the bread, and I told him, if everybody ate bread like that woman, we would never go out of business. Someone has offered to share a dessert with me, because I was just like, what do I choose in the restaurant? Well, do you want to try mine and then you’ll know? And I was like, yes. I would absolutely love to do that. My husband, who’s an introvert is just like, this is so strange, whereas I’m like, this is good. Thank you so much for sharing your dessert with me.

I really love meeting people and having adventures, even mini adventures, so Gluttony was great. It was actually a little bit more work for me because I’m like, well, what am I going to do? If I could tell a little story, Debbi?

Debbi: Sure. Absolutely.

Melissa: I always wanted to go to this restaurant called Onoir with the letter O, where there’s no light. Noir is black in French, and it’s in complete darkness so you don’t see your food, you don’t see your companions, you don’t see the servers. The people who work there, their sight is limited, so whether they’re completely legally blind or close to, and it’s a big adjustment to go in there. So I was just like, well, I’m doing Gluttony now is my chance to go to Onoir so I did. I didn’t end up incorporating that one in my book, but that was a very interesting experience. Just how anxious I was to step behind the curtain where I couldn’t see was very strange. So the server was totally fine calling out and whistling and using echolocation to walk, and of course knew the layout, no problem, whereas I was lingering behind. Where am I going in this black room? You can pick surprise dishes if you want. They’ll just surprise you and you don’t know what you’re going to be eating that night. I’m a bit of a control freak, so I did choose my food, but to tell you the truth, when I finished eating, I was like, well, I don’t know if I got it all. No one can see me, so I just used my fingers to finish it off. It’s all good.

Debbi: Well that’s a very interesting story and a very interesting restaurant, it sounds like. Boy!

Melissa: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s the best thing is that you can research cool stuff when you’re writing.

Debbi: They should call you the Extroverted Omnivore

Melissa: Oh, I love it. Thank you.

Debbi: That’ll be my nickname for you now

Melissa: Thank you. Yeah. I love it.

Debbi: Awesome. Who are your favorite authors? Who inspires you as a writer?

Melissa: Oh, you know, I have a ton of favorite authors. I do have a YA that’s going to be coming out, so I have been reading a little bit more. So at ThrillerFest, which is one of the awards that I have won with the BIPOC Scholarship to ThrillerFest, I met Maureen Johnson and I am just re-listening to her books now and she makes me laugh all the time. So right now I’m on The Box in the Woods. Dragons were in Sugar and Vice, so I picked up Robin Hobb and I love her so much. She writes sets of trilogies basically, and her world is so complex, it made me understand the world as well as the characters and everything like her description of gentrification, for example. Yes, that is what happens to artists who get pushed out and everything, but in her case it was people who live in the trees and stuff like that. It was beautifully, beautifully done.

And then for mysteries, because this is a crime, Maureen Johnson is a mystery author, but I’ll just say I always love Kris Nelscott, Jim Dresden and Dana Stabenow. You cannot go wrong with those three for me.

Debbi: Awesome. Sounds good. If someone made a movie or TV show based on your books, who would you imagine playing Hope? Who would you want to play Hope?

Melissa: Okay. Okay. I just have to tell you. We have a play.

Debbi: Yeah, I was going to say. What’s the play about? I want to know about that play.

Melissa: Okay. So I do have somebody playing Hope and her name is Stefanie Hitgano and she is lovely. Just seeing the emotion play across her face is very moving, and it’s so interesting to see somebody else personify the person who’s basically me in residency. So I love that very much. So I know that the vast majority of people have not seen her act, but if you want to, you could come to Ottawa February 8th to 10th, and then you would be able to get a glimpse of her talent.

Debbi: Wow.

Melissa: So, we did have another actor play her as well, who was very talented. So I’ve been so lucky to have had people bring Hope to life. Oh, and I also have audiobooks and so couple of people read The Shapes of Wrath.

Debbi: Oh, that’s fantastic. That’s great. Isn’t it something amazing when you hear other people say the lines of the characters you create, and maybe it’s a little bit different, but it’s more awesome than you imagined it? That’s the way it’s been for me anyhow.

Melissa: Yes. Congratulations to you. Yeah, absolutely. I have to say before this, I did not understand the role of the director as well in it. So, I find it just interesting because I don’t think as visually as I could, so it’s also humbling to see the just physical shape that it can take, which is very beautiful. So hats off to Micah.

Debbi: All right. Excellent. What sort of humor books do you write? You write medical humor books? I’m intrigued by that.

Melissa: Okay. Yes. Cool. So I write for The Medical Post and that ends up being essays that are less than a thousand words, mostly quite often funny and quite often just odd things that happened to me in the emergency department. And then I just gathered them together into books. So a book called The Most Unfeeling Doctor in the World and Other True Tales from the Emergency Room was an Amazon bestseller when it came out. People really enjoyed hearing about it. But actually just as an aside, there are also people who read it who didn’t enjoy it of course, but in general, people just thought it was interesting.

So I write for The Medical Post and that ends up being essays that are less than a thousand words, mostly quite often funny and quite often just odd things that happened to me in the emergency department. And then I just gathered them together into books.

Debbi: Well it sounds really interesting. Yeah. Sounds great. Somebody should do that for lawyers

Melissa: Yes. Oh, did you end up practicing law then?

Debbi: Oh yeah, I did for 10 years, yeah.

Melissa: Oh, good for you.

Debbi: Yeah, I even had my own office for a while.

Melissa: Awesome.

Debbi: The stories I could tell! The stories other people could tell. It’s amazing. It’s really amazing.

Melissa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well I’m going to tell you two things. So a bestseller sort of side by side with me was an EMT. And of course, you know, Scott Turow and John Grisham and everybody, so go crazy with your lawyer and EMT and whatever else stories. There’s a market for them. People want to know.

Debbi: Oh boy. Well I really have to get in touch with some of my husband’s friends then, because I’m sure that they have lots of stories. I was going to ask you something. Oh, advice. What advice would you give to anybody who would like to write for a living?

Melissa: This is a question I ask everybody who makes a life in the creative arts. I find it fascinating because for me, I feel like I took the correct way, which was that I wanted to be able to support myself and I didn’t trust that writing or the arts could do that for me. So that’s why honestly I went into medicine that I just was like, I’m going to be my own patron of the arts. I am going to be able to always put a roof over my own head and over my children’s head. It was very important to me. Even though my boyfriend who became my husband had said he would support me, I just wanted that independence. and it also gave me a lot of stories so it ended up working out.

The advice I would give to other people would be, one of the things that nobody told me that I wish they had told me was that it’s very important to make friends. You know, people always tell you, write a good book. Yes, write a good book. Market your book, market your book, but also other people lift you up and I do it too. It’s not that you’re trying to exclude anybody because I love to include people, but if you’ve worked with somebody and you know them and they’re a good writer and they’re easy to deal with, it’s just so much easier to reach out and be like, Hey, I know this project. Do you want to join me, or do you want to be on my podcast or on my YouTube channel? Whatever it is, it’s just a lot easier.

The advice I would give to other people would be, one of the things that nobody told me that I wish they had told me was that it’s very important to make friends.

So if you are at home and you’re an introvert and you’re writing, that’s good because you’re honing your craft, but it’s also good if you can join an organization, go to a conference. I know people moving away from Twitter, Blue Sky, whatever, if you can make friends, that is key. You will help rise together.

Debbi: Absolutely. I agree with you 100%. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Melissa: I will, I guess I’ll just plug one more time that the book that’s coming out is called Sugar and Vice, and the play that’s coming out is calledTerminally Ill.

Debbi: Boy, I want to go to Ottawa now and see this thing.

Melissa: Yes, please. We’d love to have you

Debbi: You guys have to record it and put it up on YouTube or something, maybe. Or Vimeo somewhere?

Melissa: We need the money.

Debbi: Yeah, yeah. Ask for money on admission. Yeah, no problem with that. You can do that. Somebody can. I really appreciate your being here today. Melissa, thanks so much.

Melissa: Thank you so much for having me, Debbi. I really appreciate it. And keep reading and writing, everybody.

Debbi: Alrighty. Well on that note, thank you everyone for listening. And just want to say if you’re watching this on YouTube, please hit like. If you’re listening to it in the podcast, please leave a review. They help! And take a look at our Patreon page. We are a Patreon-supported podcast and I’m very grateful to my patrons, believe me. And so on that note, our next guest will be Leanne Sparks. Until then, take care and happy reading.

For ad-free episodes, bonus episodes, and more, become a Patron!

View Details

This episode of the Crime Cafe features my interview with crime writer Laurie Buchanan.

Among other things, we talk about her (planned) nine-book Sean McPherson series.

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

We also have a shop now. Check it out!

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Download a copy of the transcript here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today is the author of the Sean McPherson series, and while Sue Grafton had her alphabet series, this author has picked one letter and stuck with it—the letter I. All the books in the series have one-word titles that start with I, which I think is really kind of cool. The latest one released is Impervious, and the next one will be called Iniquity. It’s my pleasure to have with me today Laurie Buchanan. Hi, Laurie. How are you doing today?

Laurie: Hi, Debbi. I’m fine. Thank you for having me. I’m looking forward to talking with you.

Debbi: Awesome. Well, I’m glad to have you here. The last time you were here, your first book was out, right? Indelible?

Laurie: Yes. Yes.

Debbi: And that established the story of Sean McPherson, who works at this kind of place where writers’ retreats are held.

Laurie: Exactly. Pines & Quill is a writing retreat in the Pacific Northwest, and now by Iniquity, which comes out this April—it’s a premier now. It has had so many people, and now there’s this huge waiting list and you need to be background checked and so on and so forth, because some murders have taken place there. Some from without and some from within. So they’re being more than cautious. And the neighbors can see when first responders come, oh, what’s going on there? There’s paramedics, there’s police, there’s whatever it is. And then the news crews come over. So we’ve gotten now pretty far into the story, so Book Four Iniquity comes out in April, and Book Five is with the publisher. I just finished writing Book Six. It went to the beta readers, and I’m now starting Insidious, Book Seven.

Debbi: Oh my goodness.

Laurie: Yes. I’m on a nine-book contract right now. It went from one to three to five to seven to nine, and I suspect it will grow.

Debbi: Good heavens, nine books! Well, this is very interesting, because you have anticipated a few of my questions already. Well, we can talk about that, though. Boy. Nine books! How has the story of Sean McPherson developed over time so far?

Laurie: So we’ve gotten now where there’s three very close friends—a private investigator, Sean McPherson, one of his two best friends, homicide Detective Joe Bingham, and then his other best friend, Sean Rafferty. Because there are two Seans, they go by their last name. Sean McPherson goes by Mick, Sean Rafferty goes by Rafferty, and he’s an FBI special agent, and the three of them work together very well. Two of them, the homicide detective and the FBI special agent, have constraints, bureaucratic constraints. There are some things they cannot do because they are law enforcement agents. And because Sean is a PI in the state of Washington, he carries a gun. He doesn’t have bureaucracy to answer to. He doesn’t break the law, but he doesn’t have the same constraints. So the three of them can get places and accomplish things that they wouldn’t be able to do if they were all just police or all just FBI. So they’ve got this three thing going on.

Now where I’m at in the story, Sean McPherson in Impervious, which is the one that we’re talking about today, Sean and Emma get married. They go to New Orleans, which is a destination location for weddings and horrific things happen there. Somebody who is near and dear to the readers’ hearts while they’re there dies in San Francisco, which stops the honeymoon and Sean leaves. Emma, his brand-new bride, stays for a different reason and things happen. And you can see the front cover here is a swamp and it’s an alligator-infested swamp and things take place.

Debbi: It does have a very New Orleans vibe to it, or a Louisiana vibe.

Laurie: Louisiana. Absolutely!

Debbi: I can practically picture … What is that movie? The one with… The one that takes place in the swamps of Louisiana. It’s really scary at parts.

Laurie: I’m thinking of Dueling Banjos, and I know that’s not it.

Debbi: Not that one. It’s the other one with Powers Boothe.

Laurie: Oh, I don’t know.

Debbi: And it’s just eluding me. Well, it’s great. It’s a great movie. That’s all I know. I’ll think of the name eventually, probably after this is over. Anybody who loves movies probably is saying the name and saying, “Debbi, Debbi, it’s this one.”

Laurie: They’re shouting it out.

Debbi: Yes. Your book descriptions always seem to mention the occupations of various characters who are at the retreat to write. How do you decide what your ensemble characters are going to do for a living?

Laurie: That’s a great question, and in fact, for Book Seven, I had to create, I had to give birth to the four writers in residence that will be there. And I always want them to be something interesting, somebody who would actually be writing a book. So I just created, one of them is a standup comedian. Her book is—I always get to come up with their titles too. That’s hard. You know how hard it is to come up for your own title. It’s equally hard. Hers is called Unzipping My Genes In Public: A Humorous Look at Genealogy and Genetics. One is a former nun and hers is called Out of Habit, a memoir. One is Sarah Tedesco. She’s an advocate for human rights, and she’s a well-known author. She’s in a wheelchair and she’s continuing a series called In Cahoots for children, so that kids in a wheelchair with prosthetics don’t succumb to bullying and they feel proud of themselves. And the final one is Jane Allen. She’s a New York Times bestselling author who you will find out doesn’t write her own books. She goes to writing retreats and murders someone there and steals their manuscripts and pawns them off as her own.

So we’ve got those. So it’s fun for me to be able to come up with these characters and the titles of their books, making sure that they don’t already exist on Amazon or anywhere. Who are they? Where could they be coming from? How can I use them in the book? And so every time I write a book, I have to write the entire book around that one I word that’s four syllables long. So we have Indelible, Iconoclast, Impervious, Iniquity, Illusionist—I just turned it in. Hold on, let me, I’m cheating here—Illusionist, Innocuous, and now I’m writing Insidious.

So a lot of thought has to go around writing around one word, writing around the meaning of that word. What negative thing can take place around that word? And of course, when you write crime thrillers as you know, what does the protagonist have to lose you? You have to have that—what does the protagonist have to lose. And so as I write my character bible for each of these things, also for them—and it may not ever appear in the story—what is their secret that they don’t want anybody to find out, because that’s how they approach life. That’s the set of lenses they look through. And it may again never be something that the reader finds out, but I write around that secret and that I word.

Debbi: That’s fantastic. That’s absolutely fantastic. You’re kind of a natural for adaptation to television, frankly .

Laurie: Wouldn’t that be fun? Wouldn’t that be fun?

Debbi: Wouldn’t that be fun? She said with a smile. Hmm. Well, you have a plan for how the stories are going to go obviously, because you’re all the way up to book what … Seven?

Laurie: Seven, yes.

Debbi: Lord! Do you have an idea of where you’re going to go with Eight and Nine?

Laurie: Well, I won’t write this one—I would love to—Indigenous. In the Pacific Northwest, there are reservations and so forth, but because I’m not Native American, I wouldn’t want to step … somebody else can write that book. But I am going to write Iditarod, which takes place in the month of March up in Alaska. Going to go do a lot of research for that. I’m also going to write Imitation. That’s one of them that’s coming down the line. That’s going to involve Sean McPherson’s mom, who’s in her seventies and she’s retired FBI so she knows exactly what she’s doing and something horrific will be happening.

Now, as you know, writing the mystery series that you do, the McRae Mysteries, you have to be able to drop breadcrumbs previously and follow them up. I’m not a huge fan of red herrings. I don’t trick the readers. I don’t want to say, well a-ha! I want to have viable breadcrumbs that if they’ve been reading the series, they’re like, oh my gosh. That’s right. That happened. They saw this in the morgue when they opened that drawer, and there was the diver in that suit, and he had this Russian blade. And so it’s something I can build on, but you have to have enough of an idea. I never know how any of the books is going to end. Haven’t a clue. I just know the direction I’m going, and I use my character bible as my compass. That’s my true north and I just follow it, but I know enough that if I’m going to be writing this, I better be dropping these hints now. I better do this.

I never know how any of the books is going to end. Haven’t a clue. I just know the direction I’m going, and I use my character bible as my compass.Debbi: Yeah. Yeah. Because if you want something to happen, say in Book Eight, and plant a seed for it in Book Three, you need that bible to kind of create that link.

Laurie: Exactly, and I do have a guy in a drawer that they took the wetsuit off of, and there was a particular tattoo, and fastened to him with a belt was this particular knife. Someone had died from a knife with the same jiggy-jag kind of a thing with a Russian blade, with the manufacturer. You’ve got to be able to speak authentically with whatever weapons you’re using, whatever fight scenes, and you have to plot it out, and that’s half the fun.

I don’t know if you’re like me. I don’t sleep well. because my mind is busy. I lay there with my eyes closed and I’m not wiggling around, but I’m busy. And if I think of something, I always keep my phone on the nightstand and I’ll pick it up and I’ll say Laurie, don’t forget this. Remember that. Hey, this is a good idea, or check this. What about that? Remember those spies in World War II. What was that thing that they called? They had a fake tooth. Their upper left back quadrant, they would remove the tooth, put in there a pill that if they got caught, they could knock that tooth out with their tongue, bite into it and die. What was that really called and what was in it? Would the morgue pick that up if they weren’t looking? Would the M.E. be able to pick that up if they weren’t looking for it? You have to be able to do this.

I have talked with M.E.s, with psychologists, with psychiatrists, with the SWAT team here in Boise, Idaho. I’ve gotten to … let me see here where I thank people. I’ve gotten to talk to a detective in the Major Crime unit. I’ve gotten to go to the crime lab here, forensic pathologist. I’ve talked with a private investigator, Dickie Floyd. He writes detective novels, a forensic psychologist, and a chief public defender. I mean, I go and I ask for their time, and they’re happy. No one has ever told me no, because they are going to get thanked back here, and they give me the lowdown. How would you do this? How could that happen? I ask, and I ask and I ask. They’re so gracious and they step up to the plate and they say, this is what would happen. This is most likely the weapon that they would use, and in response, this is what we would do. And it’s really fun.

Debbi: Sounds like you do a lot of primary research.

Laurie: I do.

Debbi: How much time do you spend on research and how do you organize your research?

Laurie: I’m very organized. Almost everything for me, I keep on my laptop. I’m not a messy person. I dot my i’s, I cross my t’s. I don’t have a bunch of stuff. I work with an almost blank desk. I get my research done in advance, so when I get on my laptop, all of the tabs are closed. I don’t have Google open, I don’t have Facebook open. My phone is in a drawer in airplane mode. I just power through it. At three o’clock, I stop. Doesn’t matter what’s going on, what’s happening. I get up at four. I walk six miles a day, three two-mile increments so I get my walking done. I put a headlamp on. I’m in the Pacific Northwest. It’s very dark at that time of morning. I take my dog and we go and come back.

Butt in Chair. I use the BIC method—Butt in Chair—and I write, write, write, write, write, stop. Two more miles, come back, Butt in Chair. Write, write, write, write, write, and I end my day at three o’clock. Two more miles. I’m done. I’m done. My brain is mush.

Debbi: Wow! Well, that’s very diligent and an excellent routine, I have to say. Walking is a great thing to do.

Laurie: It is, because your pot is simmering on the back burner of your brain, and it helps you drop things off that you don’t need, think of things that you need. I have, like I said, a nine-book contract. My publisher, Spark Press could let me go at any time, just like our contracts are written where I could let them go. If I don’t hit certain bars, they can let me go. Effective August 1st of this year, I no longer have Pacific Group West as my distributor. It’s Simon & Schuster. That raised the bar like you can’t believe. So the book that’s coming out, I went out and studied their catalog. What we had had, we have these blueprints that we work with, and this is what I envisioned for my cover. This is how I want my pages laid out. Well, I had to Simon & Schuster-ize from Iniquity on. I thought I was done, and I still needed to write because I have to hit a target of a book release every April. And it’s not easy.

It sounds like I just sit down and it flows out of my head. No, that’s not true. That doesn’t happen. I bang it out of my head.It sounds like I just sit down and it flows out of my head. No, that’s not true. That doesn’t happen. I bang it out of my head. So I had to back up and Simon & Schuster-ize all of this stuff that takes place. You know on the back of a book, you’ve got what we’ve always called the hook in the past; they call it a keynote. It has to be 250 characters—not words—including spaces and periods and commas and everything. No longer, no more. And this is what it must contain. It cannot recreate anything down here. And then this is this many words with this many spaces, and it must contain…. And that was an amazing feat. Now moving forward, it won’t be hard, but I had to re-up several books for that, but it’s an exciting thing. What a great reason. I have to do this because of Simon & Schuster. Well, I like having that problem.

Debbi: Can’t say I blame you. I can see the benefits. How would you describe your writing in terms of sub-genre? Is it thriller, suspense, mystery?

Laurie: It is a little of each, but it’s mostly thriller. On my bookmarks, it’s the Sean McPherson crime thrillers, but it does contain mystery, it does contain suspense, almost from the get-go in any book. It’s very Alfred Hitchcockian in that. Remember, he puts the bomb under the table and the people in the audience get to see that, but the characters don’t know. The movie stars on the screen don’t know. So that’s where the suspense comes in. Right from the get-go in my books, almost within the first chapter, you know who the bad guy or gal is. You know but the other characters in the book don’t. That’s what makes it suspenseful. So the reader is going, “Don’t go into the forest. No, don’t go into the garage. Don’t go in the kitchen no matter what you do,” because the reader knows what’s going on, but the characters in the book don’t. And that’s an Alfred Hitchcock method, and that’s what makes it suspenseful.

Debbi: Yes, very much so. What do you think has been the most effective way that you connect with your readers?

Laurie: Two ways for me. I am very interactive with readers on Facebook and Instagram. I just recently left Twitter. I left 12,000 people behind, but I wasn’t excited to stay there anymore. So I get a lot done there. I live very close to Boise State University. I get invited to speak there a lot. When I speak, then I get readers. I belong to the Blackbird Writers. I get to do stuff with them. I get readers, then I get to interact with them. I do book signings. I get to go to where my stories take place. They pivot from the Fairhaven Historic District in Bellingham, Washington. I go there, I do a book launch at Village Books, and I get to meet people and talk with people, so connecting. So for me, social media is social. If somebody says something, I respond. I would never not respond.

I have a newsletter and I have a blog and that type of thing. So it is responding to people who reach out and say, will you talk with my book club? Will you Zoom in? We’re in Maryland. Would you Zoom? Sure, I will. Sure I will. So for me, social media, I get to talk with people there. I see you all the time out on Instagram. I think you see me back. I’m out there quite often. I like to take pictures. I take my own pictures, and then I get them out there, and that spurs conversation.

Debbi: Yes. I like taking pictures too, actually. I’ve really gotten into photography lately. It’s enjoyable. If your books were adapted into a series for television say, who could you picture playing the lead characters?

Laurie: Henry Cavill for Sean McPherson for sure. And I’m going to not think of her name. She’s just lovely. She was in Superman and she was the sidekick gal. She has red hair and I cannot think of her name, but that is who I would pick for Sean and Emma. I can’t think of her name. I’ll think of it later, like when you think of the Powers Booth movie.

Debbi: Yeah, that Powers Boothe movie is still eluding me.

Laurie: And I can’t think of this person’s name either.

Debbi: Oh gosh. I hate when that happens.

Laurie: I know.

Debbi: What insights or advice would you offer to anyone who’s interested in writing for a living?

Laurie: The most important thing is to show up. The second most important thing is to be concise, and the third most important thing is to be consistent. You don’t show up every other day or every other week. You show up every day. You’re concise. We live in that time now, our place in the world now, our time in history is sound bites. You have to pare it down. You can write it blah-blah-blah and then just get it down to blah. And then consistency. Those are the three. Show up, be concise, be consistent.

The most important thing is to show up. The second most important thing is to be concise, and the third most important thing is to be consistent.Debbi: And what are you actually writing right now? What are you working on? Because I know you’ve got plans for books in the future, but what book are you actually working on right now?

Laurie: I’m actually writing Book Number Seven. I just wrote the first paragraph of the prologue for it. Sean Rafferty walks through the doors of Maine State Prison—I won’t tell you why—and how has that made him feel? What is he seeing? What is he smelling? What is that doing to his breathing? I won’t tell you why he’s there, but he’s there for a really darn good reason. And literally before I got on with you, I wrote that first paragraph and it took me a long time. You know, out of the gate, that first sentence better be extraordinary and that first paragraph better support it. And then I went and I said to my husband, Len, what do you think about this as an opener? He said, I would only change one word. Instead of thud, I would say clang. Other than that …

Debbi: Very good. Well, it sounds like you have your work cut out for you in between Simon & Schuster-izing and just coming up with all of these plots. I really have to say well done. Way to go! Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up?

Laurie: Just a reminder to the listeners that I’m doing a giveaway if they get on your blog site on the Crime Cafe, and they go to the little piece that I put out there where they get to read a chapter of Impervious. There’s 1, 2, 3 instructions. I can’t remember what they are, but if they go there, they’ll see 1, 2, 3 instructions to enter the giveaway, and then I will sign a copy, put a bookmark in it and mail it to them and it’s for US residents.

Debbi: Well, that’s a deal and a half right there.

Laurie: Right there.

Debbi: Well, thank you so much for spending time with us today. Thank you.

Laurie: Thank you for having me. I enjoyed talking with you.

Debbi: It was great to see you again.

Laurie: You too. Thank you.

Debbi: Sure thing. If you enjoyed the episode everybody, please leave a review. And if you’re watching this on YouTube, please like the video. If you would like to enter the contest for that giveaway that Laurie just described for a copy of Impervious signed by the author. Just follow her instructions after you like the video. And check us out on Patreon also, where I have book reviews, excerpts from my work and bonus episodes that are just pure fun, basically. On that note, I’ll see you next time when our guest will be Ted Flanagan. Thanks for listening. Take care and happy reading.

Laurie and I both remembered the names that eluded us. I posted the answers on Patreon.

Check it out here! No charge. 🙂

View Details

This episode of the Crime Cafe features my interview with crime writer Jason Kapcala.

Check our discussion about his novel, Hungry Town, along with his other writing.

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

We also have a shop now. Check it out!

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Download a copy of the transcript here.

Debbi: Hi, everyone. Today I have with me the author of two novels and numerous short stories that have been published in many magazines and literary journals. His latest book is Hungry Town. It’s my pleasure to have with me, Jason Kapcala. Did I say that right?

Jason: Kapcala

Debbi: Kapcala. Jason Kapcala. Well, hello Jason. Thanks for being here. Thanks for spending time with me.

Jason: Thanks for having me, Debbi.

Debbi: It’s my pleasure. Now, you have two novels, but you have many short stories. Did you start off writing short stories?

Jason: Yeah, I did. I kind of went the academic track. Went through an MFA program, and when I was there, started out learning to write stories, short stories, and actually my first book was a short story collection, but it was a linked collection so they all kind of tie in with one another, and it was all based around the town where I grew up, that area in Northern Pennsylvania where I was from. And then after that, I started moving into writing longer things, working on novels, and wrote my first novel, Hungry Town, and kind of got into that mode of writing about crime and police.

Debbi: Does your work tend to focus on small towns?

Jason: It does, yeah. I always write about a fictional place, but there’s always elements of real life places that influence those towns. I just do that because I think I like the freedom of being able to put things where I need them, as the story demands it. So if I need to have a river here, I can put a river here, nobody’s going to say, Hey, I’m from that town. There’s no river there, but I’ll go ahead and really base these towns on places where…. The first one was the place where I was from, but in other cases, places I know. So the town of Lodi in the novel Hungry Town, it’s kind of an amalgamation of Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, which was very close to where I grew up, and it was a steel town, of course, and had a large steel mill there.

Jason: It was really non-functional by the time that I was old enough to pay attention to it, but I still passed the ruins of it a lot. So it’s sort of part that, and then part Athens, Ohio, where I did my Masters which was also formerly an industrial town turned college town. It had a brick factory and brick streets and everything. I don’t know that there’s really a town in existence that’s quite like the one in my novel that would have a mill the size of the mill in the novel, but also a town as small as Athens. But I kind of went with that and ended up naming it Lodi, but it doesn’t have any connection to the actual Lodi, Ohio. If anybody’s from there, it’s not your Lodi. It’s a fictional one.

Debbi: That’s interesting, because I kept thinking of Lodi, California.

Jason: Well, that’s why I picked that name. Someone had said to me once they think there must be a Lodi in every state of the country. And so I was like, yeah, that does seem like a kind of an every town name, and so that’s why I ended up going with it. Plus I like the Creedence Clearwater Revival song.

Debbi: Gotta love the Creedence. Do you have a preference for writing short versus long?

Jason: Oh, definitely long. I enjoyed writing short stories when I first started it, but I definitely liked the space to branch out and work longer forms and really tell my story, kind of, and take my time.

Debbi: It really allows you to set the scene, too.

Jason: Yeah, absolutely.

Debbi: Yes. So what is your latest novel about?

Jason: The one I just released, you mean?

Debbi: Yes, the one you just released.

Jason: It’s actually a year now, but …

Debbi: Well, yeah, the one that I know of.

Jason: Right, right, right, because I’m working on one, so I didn’t … So Hungry Town, it’s really about … well, there’s sort of two storylines that go through it. One is the story of two police officers Rieux and Mulqueen, and it sort of starts out with an accident that happens when they’re investigating a silent alarm that goes off at the local abandoned steel mill. And they find some kids inside up to things they shouldn’t be. They’re joined by another police officer who gets a little too rough with the kids, kind of unnecessarily for no reason at all. He overreacts to the situation, and as a result one of the kids is hurt. I won’t say too much more plot-wise, but it ends up having ramifications for the two characters, Rieux and Mulqueen, who weren’t directly involved in that, but who were present and forces them to really question law enforcement, their jobs in law enforcement and what they’re doing. They both end up taking different paths as they deal with the fallout of this.

And then running parallel to that is a story about a young woman named Darla who is on the run from her abusive ex-boyfriend. He has hired a couple of local guys to track her down, and those two stories, eventually by the end of the novel, they intersect with one another.

Debbi: Yeah. How would you describe your writing in terms of sub-genre? Is it more police procedural? Is it more noir-ish?

Jason: Yeah, I kind of would call it like country noir or I’ve heard people say Southern gothic. I don’t really think it’s southern per se, but it’s the same notion, that sort of Rust Belt gothic or Rust Belt noir, sort of my interest. Appalachian noir or something along those lines—small towns, economically depressed, industrial towns, and taking a look at the darker aspects of that.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah. Elmore Leonard, that’s the name that comes to mind.

Jason: Yes, that’s a perfect example.

Debbi: Yes, absolutely. He was great. How much research did you need to do before you started writing your novels?

Jason: I did quite a bit of research. I don’t have a law enforcement background or anything like that, so I did do some research into that. I try not to do so much research where fidelity to detail and things like that become so persnickety and stuff that it gets in the way ,of the story. Where it feels like every page, you’re just reading a laundry list of factoids that you knew the author researched or something, and it felt like they had to get in there. But I did do a lot of research into that. In a strange way, I did a lot of research into horse training, because Darla, the character of Darla, who I had mentioned is a horse trainer, and so kind of had to learn some things about that profession.

And then also, one of the characters, Mulqueen, he owns a hotdog stand, a hotdog shop, and so I always joke I did a lot of research into hot dogs. Ate at a lot of hotdog stands in the name of research, and that is something that was part of going to Bethlehem, Pa. They have a big food culture there, kind of a unique food culture there, and I used to go there with my dad and my brother, and we would go to some of our favorite hot dog stands—Yocco’s, Potts’ and other places like that. And so that kind of found its way into the book in an unusual way too.

Debbi: Cool. Very nice. I love when local color works its way into writing. What authors have most inspired you?

Jason: Well, it is a laundry list of authors probably who I could say have inspired me, but in terms of this book in particular, probably the most inspiration came actually not a crime writer, but a writer by the name of Kent Haruf who wrote the book Plainsong, which was, I think, a National Book Award finalist maybe. I couldn’t say I remember the year, but it’s a book about ordinary people really who live in a fictional town of Holt, Colorado. They are school teachers, they are farmers, they are elementary school kids. They are women who work as waitresses in diners, and just sort of a novel about their lives and how they intersect with each other. Each chapter starts with a different character name and follows that character in that kind of William Faulkner style. That was a book that was really influential on me when I was writing this.

There was another book called Anything You Say Can and Will Be Used Against You by Laurie Lynn Drummond, and it was a collection of short stories actually. She was a police officer in Louisiana, I believe, and wrote a collection of short stories. That was one where, I think probably the idea to write this book and to write it from the perspective of the police officers, I probably owe a bit of that to reading that book. If I were gonna say one more, I guess I would say at the time, I probably had written a draft of the book already by the time this came out, but there was a book American Rust by Philipp Meyer. I know he’s written some other books. I know he has written The Son, which was turned into … I want to say a television series, but I don’t know what station.

American Rust kind of got a lot of attention. It came out, it was doing very similar in the sense that it’s a book that also opens with an accident in an abandoned steel mill, so when it came out that was one where I was like, oh, I have to read this book. This is kind of similar plot-wise to what I’m doing, and he writes very differently than I do. But it was a book that I loved. I think I felt connected to, and in whatever way that has influenced my writing, I’m sure it’s only for the better.

Debbi: They all sound interesting. What are you working on now?

Jason: I’m working on a completely different kind of project now. My goal was to kind of not do the same thing twice, although I do think I will. I’m toying with the idea of returning to, particularly the character of Rieux in this book Hungry Town, potentially visiting her some years down the road again in another book to see where she ends up and things. But right now what I’m working on is kind of a long novel, sort of a novel in stories.

It’s sort of self-contained chapters, but really is a novel about a small town rock band, and it’s set again in a fictional town, and that town’s based on Centralia, Pennsylvania. The backstory of centrality is really interesting. There’s a trash fire that was set there, I want to say sometime in the 80s maybe, and it seeped into an underground coal vein, and now there’s a fire that burns underneath this town of Centralia. It’s, of course, a condemned town now. Not many people live there, if anybody, but this fire has been burning underneath this town for many years and will continue to burn for many years more. I thought that was kind of a neat setting to explore. I’ve always been kind of fascinated with the story of that town, and so, I have this town of Stillwater in this book that I’m working on, and I have this small town rock band. This novel really sort of follows the lead singer of that band who, right when they were on the verge of their first break, he took their kind of golden ticket and took off for California to make it solo.

And, now it’s eight years later, and he’s coming back home for the funeral of one of his old bandmates, and he has to face these people he hasn’t seen in quite some time. The drummer, who was his girlfriend at the time, she has a daughter, who is the right age that she could be his daughter, so he’s not sure about that. He’s kind of now being put back in the orbit of these individuals who he’s wronged, and has to figure out how to make things right. It all sounds kind of serious the way I describe it, but it’s actually a comic book, a comedy book. It’s basically following him as he gets himself into one ridiculous, stupid situation after another and does dumb things.

Debbi: That sounds pretty cool.

Jason: I’m still working on it. Hopefully, it’ll be successful, but if not … I mean, there’s multiple ways it could be successful, I suppose, and it’s been really helpful to me to be working on it and to be writing something a little less grim and a little less hardboiled than the last book.

Debbi: I can thoroughly appreciate that. When you work on this stuff after a while, it’s kind of like, I really need to lighten up.

Jason: Yeah. I just wanted to do something different.

Debbi: I can appreciate that. What advice would you give to anyone who would like to have a writing career?

Jason: Oh, boy. Yeah, that’s a good question. Well, I have some of the old cliché ones I can give, which is to read a lot. That is of course, it’s cliched, but it’s still really good advice, I think. Read a lot and read not just whatever it is that you want to write. Don’t just limit yourself to reading. If you want to write crime novels, don’t just limit yourself to reading crime novels. Read broadly, read everything you can get your hands on, and you’ll be surprised how things can kind of make their way into what you’re doing. And then I think the thing that’s always worked well for me as a practice, and I don’t know if it works for everybody, but pass it along anyway.

I always just try to write. Sit down, write, be dedicated to it, be serious about it, commit yourself to it, put forth the effort and time. Writing I think is something that I’ve never been able to think my way through. I just have to write and let all of the associations and things that are within me come out and come out onto the page, at least in that first drafting session of things. I think if you write with blinders on, if you know exactly where you’re going all the time and exactly what’s going to happen, you’ve got it all figured out, and then you sit down to do it, then you run the risk of missing out on some pretty unexpected, better ideas that may come along through the act of doing the writing.

And sometimes that’s the most enjoyable part, I think for me is like where did this idea come from? This is great, and the story starts writing itself, and you’re just sort of there trying to keep up. Then I think when I go to revision, I take the opposite approach. I try to figure out what it’s about or what I thought it was going to be about, and then try to make it about anything else. I just try to write against the grain of my intentions, again, in order to just view it fresh, and to not get trapped into just seeing it one way. I think sometimes you’re so close to things. This is probably true for people working in a lot of different areas. You become so close to something that you can’t really see it for what it is, and so one of the ways I try to do that is just try to make it about something else, and again, sometimes you go in some really interesting directions that you didn’t expect.

Debbi: Yeah.

Jason: Just try not to be too precious about it. I mean, it’s a living thing and it’s okay to kind of mess with it.

Debbi: I don’t know if you’re in a writer’s group or anything, but I’ve always found that helpful, getting comments from other people.

Jason: It is. I’m not in a writer’s group currently. I was in the past. Now I’m in a book group. We sort of have transitioned into, just based on need and time and things like that, a reading group. We read books and discuss them. But I do have one very good friend, Renée K. Nicholson, who’s also a writer. She’s actually a nonfiction writer, a memoirist, but we had met during graduate school and we were readers for one another, and I can always trust her to give me honest feedback and good feedback and helpful feedback and feedback that comes from a good place. I try to do the same for her. So having your reader or readers I do think is really important.

Debbi: Yeah. Absolutely. Is there anything else you would like to add before we finish up?

Jason: No. Just really happy to have had the opportunity to share a little bit about the book. Really proud to see it out there on West Virginia University Press, and I am hosting a giveaway, which I think the information will be on your blog shortly. So if folks are interested in reading it or putting in for a copy, the information on that will be there. Otherwise, I hope that folks read it and enjoy it. They’ll drop a line, and if you read it and you don’t enjoy it, I suppose you could drop a line too. That’s okay, but maybe not, I don’t know, but hopefully it finds its readership out there.

Debbi: I’m sure it will. Well, I just want to thank you for being here. I appreciate your time and also I have to ask you. You’re from northern Pennsylvania. Anywhere close to Pittsburgh?

Jason: Interestingly enough, I’m from Northeast Pa. originally, up in the Poconos, but not very far from the Allentown/Bethlehem area. I now live in northern West Virginia, so I’m really only an hour south of Pittsburgh now, so it’s not hard for me to get to Pittsburgh. I get to Pittsburgh quite a bit.

Debbi: Yeah. I used to live in Monroeville actually, for a very short period.

Jason: Very cool.

Debbi: There are so many fond memories I have of Monroeville. We can talk about that later.

Jason: Yeah, well, it’s a nice area. I mean, honestly, both sides of Pa. are nice areas.

Debbi: Yeah, they are. I like Pennsylvania.

Jason: They are historic areas, yeah.

Debbi: Oh yeah. Lots of history there. Indeed. Well, thank you so much again. I appreciate your being here, and with that, I will just say thank you to all my listeners. Thank you. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review. They help. Also check out our Patreon page. You’ll see I’ve been adding lots of bonus episodes, if you take a look there. So my patrons will have plenty to enjoy, plenty of content. So until next time, when my guest will be Lori Buchanan, I would like to wish you happy reading, happy New Year, and just take care and have a nice time. Be seeing you.

For bonus episodes and more, check out our Patreon page!

View Details

This episode of the Crime Cafe features my interview with crime writer Kim Hays.

Learn all about her Linder and Donatelli mysteries here.

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

We also have a shop now. Check it out!

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Download a copy of the transcript here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. Today’s guest is a dual citizen of the US and Switzerland. She’s also the author of the Polizei Bern Series, featuring two detectives Giuliana Linder and Renzo Donatelli. Her work has been shortlisted for many awards and she has two books out in this series with a third coming next year, which is coming very quickly. It’s my pleasure to have with me today, Kim Hays. Kim, hi. How are you doing?

Kim: I’m great, and thanks for having me.

Debbi: Well, it’s my pleasure, believe me. It must be late there where you are. Switzerland, right?

Kim: Yes. Here in Bern, it’s nine o’clock, but not too late. My eyes are wide awake.

Debbi: Still functional at nine. Very good.

Kim: Exactly.

Debbi: Good. You have a great website, by the way. I really love all the descriptions of Switzerland you have under the information tab about Bern in Switzerland.

Kim: Oh, thank you. I try to put in a lot of sort of strange and interesting facts, like that the Swiss flag is the only square flag besides the Vatican’s flag. Every other flag in the world is rectangular. This is the sort of thing that nobody knows and why should they, but it’s fun.

Debbi: Wow! I didn’t know that. That’s very interesting. So what was it that inspired you to write about the subjects that you picked, which are very topical subjects by the way. Pesticides and child labor?

Kim: Yes, and in the third book, I have homophobia as a topic too, so that’s certainly … I have a lesbian activist who’s killed in a hit-and-run, but I realize you haven’t read that one. I have, of course, so I won’t go into that. You know, I love to research and I like to learn, as you know most writers do, as most people do. So I guess I’m lucky that things turn out to be topical, but often I decide to put something in a book that I want to learn more about. I used to write articles here for a Swiss language magazine, and so I had done a short article on organic farmers, and when I started thinking about writing a mystery, I already started thinking about what background do I want to give it? And immediately I thought, well, what do I want to research? I knew that I would like to do more research on organic farming, and then of course, I had to think of a reason for an organic farmer to get murdered.

The second book, which involves a really terrible scandal in Switzerland—child labor—where children were supposedly fostered out, but really placed on farms almost as slaves from a very young age, into the late 1960s, early 70s. This was something I saw a museum exhibition on because it was just starting. The scandal was just starting. As late as the early 21st century, people were starting to be aware of it. And once I saw that, I thought it would be something very interesting to talk about. And certainly, one could easily imagine how murders or violence might occur as a result of something like that.

Debbi: Yes, absolutely. That’s astonishing, I have to say. Linder is a really interesting character because she’s always automatically picking up clues as she goes, and kind of filing them into her head, which is something I don’t see a lot in mystery writing, the way she picks up these little details and kind of narrates them to you. I thought that it’s an interesting approach to bringing the reader into the mystery solving part of it.

Kim: Well, thank you. I’m glad. I mean, obviously I don’t want her to be a psychic, you know? So the clues have to be there for us readers. I mean, I’m also a reader as well as a writer, so a mystery reader. Readers want to get the clues, see where the clue is coming from, but it sounds like you’re saying that it works. They are police procedurals, and I think that procedure and process is really interesting to me. In that sense, I think I’m more Swiss than the Swiss, or as Swiss as the Swiss since I’ve lived here 35 years. I think I really want to understand myself. I mean, I want to know how the crime gets solved, and I think that’s what people who read police procedurals want to know. They want to see the process. I hope, anyway.

Debbi: I think the police are very attentive to that sort of thing. I think that’s the thing. You really are creating sort of the experience of being a police officer or a detective, rather than a reader of something that is being solved, if that makes any sense.

Kim: Well, good. No, I’m very glad that you felt as a reader, that you were able to put yourself into that. I think something that’s also important to me, because I’m interested in moral dilemmas. It’s in part what I did my dissertation in sociology on, was to do with moral dilemmas. I’m not a police woman or a police person, but I think you must constantly have moral dilemmas unless you’re really not a very thoughtful person. And so I think I want to show how the detectives also have to think, and worry even that they might have made a mistake.

Debbi: Exactly. Yeah. There’s a lot of thought that goes into it because the consequences are so great, potentially.

Kim: Exactly. Yeah.

Debbi: How did you become so familiar with police procedure? Did you contact the police, talk to police officers, do other types of research?

Kim: I did contact the police, and I have gone to the police station here. The very one. I give the real address, the real one that I talk about in my books. But I’m incredibly lucky that I live in a little, sort of a horseshoe cul-de-sac, and I have a very high-ranking police woman, who’s higher up than a homicide detective by now, as a neighbor, just across the playground from me.

Debbi: How convenient!

Kim: It’s incredibly convenient. So she reads my manuscripts, and I trust her in that she tells me, look, if there are some small things in here that aren’t exactly what we do, it’s artistic license. You know, it is fiction. But if you write something that would make any Swiss police person fall over laughing or that’s egregious, that’s really wrong, she fixes it for me.

Debbi: That’s awesome.

Kim: I mean, I make them have a much bigger cafeteria in the building than they really have. So in that kind of thing, she doesn’t correct me. It doesn’t have to be accurate, but she doesn’t let me make mistakes. And, also, I ask her constant questions.

Debbi: Wow. Well, that’s good. That’s great that you have somebody there.

Kim: So lucky.

Debbi: That is fantastic.

Kim: And a very nice person.

Debbi: Oh, that’s cool. That’s always good.

Kim: Yes.

Debbi: What are your plans for the series? Do you anticipate writing a lot more books, or do you have plans just to continue writing them as they come to you?

Kim: You know, it’s interesting you should ask me that. The fourth one is already written. The third one is, and of course that sounds impressive, but in fact, you have to be ahead. People who try to bring out a book a year, and an incredible number of very good mystery writers do, this takes a lot of work and I’m going to have four, and then I’m going to take a break. So people will get through number four, and I’m not sure that number five will come out a year later. I shouldn’t confess this, but I haven’t confessed it to my publisher yet, but I need a little break.

Debbi: That’s understandable.

Kim: But I do think there’s a lot more that can be said about this couple of detectives. They aren’t a couple, but as you know, this is a meta story over the series, which is that the older woman police detective and her assistant, who’s about 12 years younger—she’s in her forties and he’s in his thirties—they are very attracted to each other through working together, and they’re both married with kids. So this is a big struggle for them.

Debbi: I was going to say this is a really interesting aspect of the books also that I wanted to get into. What made you choose that particular relationship for them?

Kim: Well, it’s funny because what I first most wanted to do was give them both families. I love many police series with a loner detective, and of course, there are a lot of them, or detectives with alcohol problems or whose partners have left them, and because it’s so difficult to live with a police man or woman, which I can imagine. But I wanted, like Donna Leon’s Guido Brunetti, I don’t know if you know her series set in Venice.

Debbi: Yes.

Kim: You know he has a lovely family and they’re very important to him in his life and even in his conversations and when he is solving mysteries. I wanted both of my detectives to have families, but you know sometimes things just develop themselves. I didn’t know at the beginning that I was going to do this, but as I had them working together, and it’s what happens in real life. Two people who work very closely together, whose partners can’t quite … in the case of police, you’re not even allowed to really necessarily talk to your partner about exactly what you’re doing, they become attracted to each other. So, of course, I had great fun having this younger, and as you know, very attractive man, become attracted to his 12 years older boss, I thought, you know what they say? What’s sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose, or something like that. I figured, this happens with younger women, so hey!

Debbi: I found it very believable and very interesting. I like the relationship. I think it’s great, part of what keeps me reading the series along with just the fantastic storytelling.

Kim: Thank you. I’m so pleased that you enjoyed them.

Debbi: I do. I do. You are both a Swiss and US citizen. I thought that was interesting. But you’ve also lived in Canada and Sweden?

Kim: Yes, and the fact that I started in Sweden and I live in Switzerland, two SW countries is a complete coincidence. I didn’t just decide I needed to get the set. I did a year after I graduated from college where I actually went and worked for a while in a factory in Sweden and lived there and traveled there. I still have good Swedish friends, but that had nothing to do with later meeting my husband who’s Swiss, and is actually four years younger than I am—not 12, thank goodness. But, anyway, as you may know because I wrote about it on my blog, we met on a park bench in France.

Debbi: That’s so cool.

Kim: So nothing to do.

Debbi: But you’re not going to Swahili.

Kim: No.

Debbi: I noticed your bio said that you’ve held a wide variety of jobs. I have also held a wide variety of jobs. I have a theory about that. I get the feeling that holding a wide variety of jobs tends to inform your writing in various ways, due to the sheer diversity of people you deal with when you take different types of jobs. What are your thoughts on that? Has the background informed your writing?

Kim: Yes, that’s interesting. I would say absolutely. I think that living in lots of different countries … I also grew up in Puerto Rico, although my parents were outsiders. I think the experience of being a foreigner, both in Puerto Rico, even in Canada, because it was during the Vietnam War, and here it does make you observe in a certain way, and it does also give you a certain distance, which then makes you into an observer, hopefully not too much of an observer. I’ve lived here for 35 years. I feel very Swiss, but as far as the jobs go, I think also when you change jobs, if you have to do it too often, it’s nerve wracking, but you have to observe to adapt. So I think a lot of it has to do with learning to feel comfortable in different situations, and I somehow think that that informs writing too. That you have a distance and yet you can be close as well, hopefully.

Debbi: Yes. Learning to become part of a new community, so to speak.

Kim: And yet often never quite belonging, which is difficult, but at the same time, makes you more of an observer, I think.

Debbi: Yes, because I’ve done quite a bit of moving around myself when I was younger, and it does definitely create a distance of sorts from people. But at the same time, it’s not like you don’t want to be there or be part of it, but at the same time, you’re just sort of looking at it and going, okay, that’s what happens here. I should be doing these things, or something like that.

Kim: Yes. And sometimes let’s face it, we’re talking about it like it’s so educational, but sometimes, especially when you’re 13, 14, depending on when you move, it can be extremely difficult. And at some ages, it can teach you something about bullying, which as you know is a topic in one of my books, so you learn a lot of interesting things that could become part of, because being the outsider isn’t always easy.

Debbi: It is not, but sometimes we need somebody’s point of view as an outsider to wake us up to certain things. Who are your favorite authors?

Kim: Well, I do read other things besides mysteries, very happily. I like science fiction, I like fantasy. I like what gets called literary fiction, although I think plenty of mysteries are literary. I like some romances, so I read a lot of things, but I’ll talk about my favorite mystery. I guess I’d rather talk about my favorite mystery writers.

Debbi: Cool.

Kim: One of my favorite mystery writers is Josephine Tey, who goes back to the thirties, forties, fifties. She was Scottish, but British, and to me, she’s somebody who writes about people. Her books are novels. They are not thrillers, and I don’t think my books are thrillers. I think they have suspense, but they’re not thrillers. She focuses very much on the personalities of her characters, the baddies and the goodies, and I think she’s great.

Another person I like, as I mentioned, is Donna Leon. I think I like her very much and she’s influenced me because she writes about a detective with a family living in a country where Venice in her case and in my case, Bern, they’re almost characters in the book. The setting is so important. The setting shapes what happens. And I love Michael Connolly. To me, if you write police procedurals, Michael Connolly is your God, because he’s just so brilliant.

Debbi: He is good. He is excellent. And Donna Leon, I love her books. I love the Venice setting. Having been to Venice, it’s like I’m revisiting when I read it.

Kim: Yes. I mean, I’m no expert, but she seems to describe it so, so brilliantly.

Debbi: She does, and the stories are great. Let’s see. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in writing for a living?

Kim: I guess I should preface that by talking about myself, because I was just phenomenally lucky. I did not start trying to write novels. I have written articles freelance, but I could never have supported myself doing that. I did a lot of research for them, and I once figured out that I was probably making about $5 an hour for the time it took me to research and write my freelance articles. Not money you can live on, especially not in Switzerland, the most expensive country in the world. I would say in my case, I didn’t start writing till my 50s and I basically phased out of my job and my husband supported me. It’s that simple. I mean, why would I pretend? I couldn’t have done it. I ended up writing full-time and I couldn’t have done it without someone to support me. But I guess most people don’t have that.

So I guess what I would say, though, is I would recommend to people if they wanted to have a career as a writer to get a part-time job that they—and hopefully this is dreaming—but that they really enjoy, because it doesn’t do you any good to be miserable and bored. Try to find a part-time job, hopefully doing some other kind of writing like proposal writing. I wrote proposals a lot. That I did make money. Funding proposals for nonprofits, and then just do the best you can. When you aren’t at your job, write as much as you can. So few people can support themselves with writing and certainly not with writing fiction or poetry. I mean, I would never discourage someone from trying.

When I think about this, I just want to mention that I knew he’s dead, but I knew well a poet C. K. Williams. He was a good friend of my uncle. He was a Pulitzer Prize winner and he won a National Book Award and he wrote poetry, and I know from my uncle that until he was about at 60, he got a job teaching writing at Princeton. I bet that he was able, and he was very successful. But in the early days, first his father supported him and then his brother. They both worked for companies; they were in industry. They just happily supported him. You know, it was like the days of the Renaissance when you had a patron. I think it’s a very touching story that instead of saying, get off your butt and go get a job, and what is this poetry garbage, they both accepted—first the father and then his little brother—that Charlie was gonna be a great poet, which he turned out to be, and that they were going to support him.

Debbi: I think that’s wonderful.

Kim: Isn’t that touching now? How many people are that lucky? But you know, it’s nothing to be ashamed of. Think of all the famous Renaissance painters, who had their Medicis to support them.

Debbi: That’s right. Yeah. It’s a tough business, that’s for sure.

Kim: A tough business

Debbi: In terms of making money, no matter what anybody out there says. It is a tough business. Is there anything you’d like to add before we finish up?

Kim: Well I guess I’d like to mention the names of the three books.

Debbi: Please do.

Kim: Although I think you did, but I realize that some people are listening to this on a podcast, but I thought for the people who were watching it, I could hold up the books. Can I do that?

Debbi: Excellent. Please do.

Kim: Okay. So the first book, which is about the organic farmers, is called Pesticidebecause obviously organic farmers do not use pesticides. And that is the first one. It’s the one with the cabbage on it.

Debbi: I love that cover.

Kim: And the second one … I do too. I think it’s great. I have to say Jennifer Dow is the name of the person who designs my covers, and I think she’s brilliant. The second book, Sons and Brothers is very much about a father, a man in his seventies who is beaten up and drowned at the beginning, and his son is suspected, his estranged son. So it is very much about sons and fathers and brothers, some sisters too.

And the third book, which hasn’t come out yet, has a bicycle on it because a woman is killed right at the beginning. It’s not a spoiler in a hit and run when she’s on her bicycle. So that is how the murder occurs, and at first they don’t know it is a murder, so I have given that away but you find that out. You figure with my two detectives involved, it’s probably going to become a murder.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah.

Kim: So there they are.

Debbi: A bit of a hint there, a bit of a spoiler. I mean, you’re reading a mystery, right?

Kim: Yes, exactly.

Debbi: Well, I just want to thank you so much for being here and talking with us about this, because your books really are great and I hope that everyone will check them out.

Kim: Thank you. I’m so pleased that you enjoyed them, and of course, I hope people do. That’s why you write books when you’re a writer. You want people to be entertained by them.

Debbi: That’s it. Amen to that. So, on that note, I’ll just say, if you’re listening, please leave a review if you enjoyed this episode, and tell all your friends about the podcast, and your family and the guy next door and his family … and I’ll stop there. So next time, my guest will be Jason Kapcala. Until then, happy reading and Happy New Year. Hello, 2024! Be seeing you!

For bonus episodes and more, check us out on Patreon!

View Details

Listen to the podcast on Substack.

This episode of the Crime Cafe features my interview with crime writer and cinephile F.R. Jameson.

Plans are afoot for you to see more of us here and here!

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

We also have a shop now. Check it out!

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Download a copy of the transcript here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today is the author of two book series. One is the Screen Siren Noir series featuring British film stars that get caught up in noir tales of blackmail, obsession, scandal, and death. Ooh! His latest release, Vivian Fontaine is the fourth in that series, and he’s working on a fifth. He also writes a horror series under the moniker Ghostly Shadows Anthology. I’d be interested in hearing more about that, too. There are six volumes in that series.

Originally from Wales, he now lives with his wife and daughter in London. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest F. R. Jameson. Hi, F. R. How are you doing today?

F. R.: Hello Debbi. How are you? I’m fine, thanks.

Debbi: Oh, wonderful. And what a wonderful backdrop you’ve got there. Just delightful! Regal Theater. Ooh. It’s just …

F. R.: I think it looks more American than it does British, but I might be wrong.

Debbi: That’s very interesting. Yeah, it looks very Broadway-ish or something like that. Grand! It is nice to finally see you after getting your newsletters where you talk about movies a lot. I love that. I really do enjoy your newsletters more than most authors because of that, I think. You talk about television shows, you talk about movies, you talk about things other than your books, but you do talk about your books, too.

F. R.: I do. I do talk about my books. I feel like you could do, but then I send it out every fortnight, and to send it out every fortnight only talking about that, I would be bored, because you know what it’s like when you are writing a book, it’s great when it’s finished, but the actual incremental stages of it, it’s not that fascinating.

Debbi: Yes.

F. R.: Another two weeks, I’ve done another 60 pages. They seem quite good.

Debbi: Yes, yes. I can’t wait for you to see them. I’ve been sitting here at my desk and it is so exciting writing these 60 pages.

F. R.: You want things like you’re reflecting that kind of accidental, existential dread when you’re about two thirds through when you’re thinking, “Is any of this good? Is this just terrible?” I don’t know anymore.

Debbi: I have had those thoughts, believe me.

F. R.: I think all authors have those thoughts where you do get to the point where you think you have other ideas in your head and you just think I’ll just write one of those, because that compared to this is brilliant. You are experienced enough to know you get two-thirds into that, you would be thinking, I want to do something else now, and you’ll never, ever finish anything.

Debbi: Yes, you really have to kind of hone in on those things that really interest you and really excite you, I think, and go with those and set aside other things for other times, so to speak. What inspired you to write about British film stars?

F. R.: Well, I’m sort of a massive noir fan as I’ve read earlier some Megan Abbott novels, which is very much in that milieu in Los Angeles, and also read James Ellroy, Raymond Chandler, James Cain and Dashiell Hammett and Jim Thompson. I’d love to do a book like that, but not being American and not knowing the locales, I felt it would be starting out with imposter syndrome. I didn’t want to be in the situation where I’m sweating over Hollywood’s geography. Would you really go to that club? Would you really turn left at that place, or would you keep going? In essence, just made it all up which feels wrong as it’s grounded in a place.

And then it occurred to me, Britain does have a film industry, which is a much smaller affair, but it is there. You did have things like big studios in the 1950s. You had Rank, you had Ealing, you had Hammer. You had these places in the 1950s and ’60s, and you could set it around there, but then they become by necessity, smaller and more parochial tales because it’s not the massive star system, big glamour machine that Hollywood is. There is a smaller strip, but that works I think in that kind of genre’s favor.

One of my favorite authors writing this stuff is Jim Thompson, who can write these books set in nowhere little towns where characters wind up in, where things start happening or cities kind of just exist in kind of dreams almost. They don’t seem to have any geographic basis to them, but they are small places. So I’m sort of leaning into the smallness of them, as opposed to the big glamour of Hollywood, which would be fake if I tried to write it.

Debbi: Well, I think focusing on the small stuff makes it far more interesting, I’ve always found. It’s interesting how many of these movies are set in L.A. or New York, but some of the most interesting stories take place outside of those places. This is again something like British cinema, which itself is smaller compared to say Hollywood. I mean, that in itself interests me, but you guys had Alfred Hitchcock first.

F. R.: Yeah, but he had gone by about 1940, and it was much more done on a shoestring operation version of the ’50s and ’60s. I have in my head one set in the ’70s, and by that point, it’s terrible. Sex comedies is the main thrust to the British film industry. It’s a whole other business. It’s not the new Hollywood. It’s just these awful films that are the main focus of it. Awful films, ridiculously good cast because that’s the only work they can get.

Debbi: Wow. Well, I see what you’re talking about there. I think I know the films you’re talking about, too. So are the main characters based on actual actresses?

F. R.: I’ve read a lot of biographies of directors and actors and actresses, so I haven’t specifically taken an actress and tried to weave her life story in a fictional form. But I have, through a lot of reading and occasionally watching a documentary on them, little nuggets are pulled out and kept in mind of things that really happened to people that I can then use to happen to my fictional protagonists.

Debbi: So there is a good deal of research in terms of reading that went into preparing …

F. R.: There’s a good deal of very pleasurable research. I greatly enjoy reading that stuff. I don’t find it onerous and a lot of watching old films which again, it’s all research I enjoy.

Debbi: Exactly, especially watching those old films.

F. R.: Yes.

Debbi: Very much. What are your plans for the series? Do you have a certain number of books you’d like to write?

F. R.: Well, I also write as well the Ghostly Shadows series you so very kindly mentioned, I’ve got another series, which is the Ludo Carstairs Supernatural Thrillers, which kind of straddles both the thrillers and the horror, but I think the supernatural elements takes them for a lot of thriller fans far more into the horror arena, which a lot thriller fans are very much focused on real world stuff and see it as a natural thing elsewhere, which is fine.

So, that at the moment is my main focus. But I certainly want to keep writing the noir novels as I get a great deal of pleasure from them. I’ve got another one already typed up and on my computer, so I now have to at some point rewrite it and edit it. I’ve got ideas for others, I have starts for others, so it’s just when I can get the focus to get the attention down. I don’t know, maybe I’m just finishing.

I start my process. I start off writing a book in longhand on notepads, and I’ve nearly finished writing one Ludo Carstairs Supernatural Thriller for next year, and thinking from January, maybe I will write a short noir novel. For myself, it’s such a change of pace from thinking of scares or terrifying things, which in the Ludo Carstairs books also, you’re trying to think of a kind of a Sherlock Holmes-esque relationship and Doctor Who stuff as well, so a lot of things fed into that.

But it is quite nice to then go to … I’ll try to do a Richard Stark novel or a James M. Cain or Jim Thompson stuff and just add fire to that, or just think of a story from British history that I can weave in. I’ve got an idea for one which kind of leans into the war stuff in the early ’70s, which would be a slight difference to it, but a change of pace, it would very much fit into that world. So the answer to the question is yes, I do want to write more and I will write more when I carve time, which is always the thing.

Debbi: Yes, time is always the thing. When do you generally write? What kind of writing schedule do you keep?

F. R.: In the mornings and evenings. I have the habit of writing everything first draft by hand in notebooks, which is just a good exercise in getting it all down. I was writing a chapter earlier and how it is in my notepad now is not very good. It’s got the salient things I want to have in that chapter there, so it’s done. And then gradually, I’ll type them all up, type up the books quite quickly. Type them all up, make changes and improve things along the way, and then I have my sort of work-through version, which is when I go through that document and rewrite and edit and change things round and it becomes this all-consuming thing of when I have … when I’m going through that process, 20 things in my mind of plot arcs and changes and have to go back and sort of foreshadow that instead of ticking off a lot of stuff on a list all the time.

But I get through it and get it all done and get to the other side and hopefully have a book I’m really happy with then. It’s one of those moments—I’m sure you appreciate as well—you get to the point where you are happy with it, but you have to draw a line in it because you could keep going seeking perfection. You could just keep going and another couple of drafts of that, then it’s five years later and you’re still working on that one book and at that point you’re thinking, has it got better now or was it better three years ago?

Debbi: I tend to be that way more with screenplays than I do with books actually. Screenplays are like a continual work-in-progress all the time.

F. R.: The thing with the screenplay more than the book is your screenplay, you are handing it to other people, so you are giving it across and then there’s lots of notes from the director and the actors and things change.

Debbi: Exactly. Exactly. Even before then, just to reach a reader, it’s a lot of work. That’s all I’ll say about that. I’m interested in the fact that you seem to blend genres and kind of shift among them very easily. What made you decide to be horror? Are you more horror or thriller or crime? How do you like to describe your writing?

F. R.: When asked about the books I write, I say I write supernatural thrillers and historical thrillers, my Screen Sirens Noir. I’m not entirely sure how you would do the noir novel right now with mobile phones and technology. There are obviously ways you can do that with thrillers, but I don’t want to tackle that stuff. I see myself as someone who writes thrillers, but it just depends on what kind they get blended with.

A lot of it is me writing stuff that entertains me, and hopefully other people come along. My supernatural thriller series Ludo Carstairs I wrote, one of the Ghostly Shadows books first introduced those characters, and I wrote that one Call of the Mandrake, and I was thinking very much the central relationship is Sherlock Holmes and John Watson. My wife who was reading it goes, it’s very Doctor Who this. It’s very Doctor Who and companion. That hadn’t occurred to me, given how much Doctor Who I see that doesn’t surprise me. I do now in my head, whenever I’m writing one of these go, there has to be like a Doctor Who scene, just for the central character, that’s to be brilliant. Just that kind of you can try and solve this by being brilliant.

So that’s in my head all the time. It’s something I like, but then when I’m doing one of the noir novels, it is a fine line when you’re doing one of those books. You want to do all the tough guy stuff and you want to sort of lean into your Chandler and so on, but it’s very easy to tip into parody, particularly Chandler. If you’re trying to write, it’s very, very easy to go, yes, this is some kind of joke then, isn’t it, the way you are writing now, rather than going …

Debbi: It would be like me trying to take one of my novels and turn my characters into British characters. I don’t think it would work.

F. R.: No, no, no.

Debbi: Although I will say that the main character I write about now likes Marmite. She encountered it while overseas and decided she liked it. She’s on the Love Party. Let’s see. What authors have most inspired your work? I think you’ve named quite a few.

F. R.: Yeah, I have named a few. When I was young, Chandler was massive. I’ve read a huge amount of Stephen King over time. He writes well when he’s on form, but he writes too many books and they’re often quite too long. To someone out of that genre, P. G. Wodehouse would be someone who I very much enjoy in that kind of very Wodehousian thing of avoiding the cliché and going out of their way to avoid the cliché in the most entertaining fashion possible. I always think that in my head, I’m not P. G. Wodehouse, I wouldn’t try some of his tricks, but it’s always there of trying to go round the cliché rather than simply use it. And sometimes you fail to do that. Sometimes it’s just the moment in the text being so fraught that going through some roundabout way just feels absolutely wrong and it makes more sense to just use it. But I always do have it. I’m always thinking of that. Is there a fresher way to say this?

Debbi: That’s a great approach. Taking those tropes and then kind of subverting them a little bit is something that appeals to me very much.