Conversations: Race on the Rocks: Recent Episodes
Craig Uffman
Through friendly conversations, our podcast provides information and insights that help American Christians think about the big public policy questions of our nation from a Christian ethics perspective.
wayoflove.substack.com
The issue of racism has become a real hot potato and political football this year, and Dr. Douglas Campbell returns from the last episode to help us break through the fog of the bipartisan rhetoric that we are currently experiencing so that we can begin to better understand the belief systems that perpetuate our struggles to ensure equal justice and equal opportunity for all citizens. In the last episode of the podcast, we began to talk about something that both sides of the argument say that there is much too little of – that being freedom. We talked about what it is and what it is not, and, along the way, came across an interconnected question – what is justice, and what is not justice? Dr. Campbell continues to touch upon and explore these questions from a Biblical perspective.
As a reminder, Dr. Campbell is a professor at Duke Divinity School where he has become, since 2003, one of the most respected and innovative New Testament scholars in the world. He specializes in the history and theology of the Apostle Paul, having published five incredibly influential books that have changed the way we Christians understand Paul's writings and large portions of the New Testament itself, and he also directs Duke's Prison Studies program. His latest book is titled Pauline Dogmatics: The Triumph of God's Love, a truly interesting and helpful book that I can't recommend highly enough!
He continues to discuss freedom and what he calls in Pauline Dogmatics quasi-freedom, or phony freedom that often masks itself as actual freedom. He also touches upon freedom in relationships such as marriage, what it means to regard someone as a neighbor and how to do so even if that person is very different from us, and why Christians should be more inclusive and accepting of differences. He also offers some insight regarding what next steps we as Americans should take to move closer toward achieving our country, a topic touched upon in the last episode, and he points toward grounds for hope.
Dr. Campbell has taught us so about freedom, love, and justice and what they mean and don't mean from a Biblical perspective, and he has given us a great Biblical account of these values. In our next episode, we are going to pivot to build on this discussion of love, justice, and freedom but will be applying these values to a discussion of our criminal justice processes. Returning guest Dr. Derek Woodard-Lehman will discuss what he has learned about this topic from teaching a course about it from a Christian ethics perspective. I hope that you'll join us, and be sure to invite your friends to listen in as well!
Show Notes:
[3:53] – Dr. Campbell helps us understand how some people misunderstand what real freedom is.
[6:02] – Dr. Campbell gives an example of freedom in relationships.
[8:52] – Dr. Campbell discusses the freedom of obedience.
[10:04] – We receive an example of freedom around the world in relation to the COVID-19 pandemic and being asked to wear masks.
[12:02] – Dr. Uffman and Dr. Campbell return the conversation toward marriage in connection to Biblical freedom.
[15:02] – Dr. Uffman offers some summarizing insight on Dr. Campbell's discussion of freedom thus far.
[17:18] – Dr. Uffman shifts the conversation toward Dr. Campbell's discussion of structures in his book, Pauline Dogmatics.
[19:09] – Dr. Campbell reveals how he would respond to someone saying that they should have the freedom to choose who their neighbor is.
[21:40] – We learn how to regard people who are different from us as neighbors as Dr. Campbell encourages us to stop seeing people under categories but rather networks.
[24:45] – Dr. Campbell reflects on the Civil Rights Movement and how it was driven by deep friendships.
[26:05] – Dr. Campbell comments on how the military understands forming bonds over shared struggle.
[28:13] – Differences, Dr. Campbell asserts, create possibilities for new things to be learned.
[31:22] – Dr. Uffman directs the conversation toward the hierarchies of human value and Othering and what Dr. Campbell says about these topics in Pauline Dogmatics.
[32:16] – Dr. Campbell offers more insight regarding how God is at work in all of humanity.
[35:12] – We hear Dr. Campbell make an analogy between substance abusers and sinners.
[38:12] – Far too many people think that their problem is other people rather than themselves.
[40:22] – Dr. Uffman compares our differences to playing different notes in a symphony, with God being the conductor.
[41:27] – Paul wanted to foster the diversity within the communities that he founded, who were not strictly Christians.
[43:40] – We learn what next steps Americans should take to achieve our country, explaining how to put peace into action rather than just theory.
[45:56] – Dr. Campbell points toward grounds for hope and signs that peace is possible.
Links and Resources: Dr. Campbell’s Website
Duke Divinity School - Our Faculty: Douglas Campbell
Douglas Campbell – Pauline Dogmatics: The Triumph of God's Love
Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig Uffman’s Messages Along the Way
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
Dr. Douglas Campbell joins us today to help us consider the proverbial elephant in the room whenever we talk about our struggles with racism. Whether you are White or non-White in America, it's something that we Americans claim that we want for ourselves and our neighbors even though if you listen to us talk about resolving our racial tensions, it's the thing that both sides seem to believe there is much too little of. What is that elephant in the room? Well, I am talking about freedom! Dr. Campbell is here to, amongst other things, discuss what freedom is and what it isn't from a Christian perspective.
Dr. Campbell is a professor at Duke Divinity School where he has become, since 2003, one of the most respected and innovative New Testament scholars in the world. He specializes in the life and history of the Apostle Paul, having published five books that have changed the way we Christians understand Paul's writings and large portions of the New Testament itself, and he also directs Duke's Prison Studies program. His latest book is titled Pauline Dogmatics: The Triumph of God's Love, and I highly recommend that you pick it up and read it!
He is here to discuss values that we tend to take for granted - values like love, justice, and freedom – especially within the framework of racial tensions. He believes that there are healthy and unhealthy ways to think about these values that can actually contribute to and perpetuate our racial tensions. He talks about the teachings of men like Martin Luther King and James Baldwin and how their perspectives can be tied to God's love, and he addresses what love means from a Christian standpoint and how we need to unlearn what we've been told love is and relearn what it actually means, which could very well include learning from others who are practicing it. He also talks about what happens in society when there is inequality and refers to what he calls social mobility being affected as a result.
Dr. Campbell has given us such a great Biblical account of values such as love, justice, and freedom. Join us next time as we continue this conversation, when Dr. Campbell will dig deeper into this issue and will explain terms such as quasi Christian freedom, a variant that masquerades as freedom but ultimately does more harm than good. He will also help us recognize some of the unhealthy ways that some of us sometimes think about freedom. This conversation has been so helpful, and I can't wait to have him back on to continue this talk! I hope that you'll join us, and be sure to tell friends who might be interested about the podcast!
Show Notes:
[2:41] – Dr. Uffman opens the conversation with a quote from James Baldwin from Baldwin's book The Fire Next Time.
[4:17] – People like Martin Luther King and James Baldwin, as pointed out by Dr. Uffman, believed that a lack of love was what was impeding us from achieving our country.
[5:18] – Dr. Campbell explains what he means in his book Pauline Dogmatics when he argues that we need to learn how to love.
[7:40] – Former President Trump, Dr. Uffman reflects, once stated that he couldn't understand why military personnel would lay down their lives in sacrifice – a form of love that is being discussed in this podcast episode.
[9:25] – Dr. Campbell makes the argument that we sometimes play justice off against love even though being loving is being just.
[12:20] – Dr. Campbell discusses the difference between the law and justice, using the Jim Crow laws as an example of the distinction.
[15:16] – Dr. Campbell argues that the only place where we can see a perfect reflection of God's love is in Christ.
[17:32] – We learn that true justice is transformational, reconciling, and restorative.
[20:13] – Dr. Campbell makes the case that justice is doing the right thing even if that isn't congruent with the law.
[22:34] – Dr. Campbell explains how love through sacrifice relates to our struggles here in the United States.
[25:31] – Dr. Campbell believes that Christians need to help democracy strive for love.
[26:40] – We discover what Dr. Campbell means by first having to unlearn love before learning it.
[29:54] – Dr. Campbell reveals how he defines freedom according to his book Pauline Dogmatics.
[32:10] – Dr. Campbell explains his distinction between positive freedom and negative freedom.
[34:54] – People who are being harmed, Dr. Campbell shares, need to be liberated.
[37:02] – Dr. Campbell makes a connection between structure and freedom.
[40:22] – Dr. Uffman offers insight on Dr. Campbell's emphasis on structures, nodding toward the Civil Rights Movement of 1963.
[41:27] – Dr. Campbell brings his home country of New Zealand into the conversation and refers to inequality as a zero sum game.
[44:05] – It's not our laws that make us free, Dr. Uffman summarizes, because there are too many other factors that impede freedom.
Links and Resources: Dr. Campbell’s Website
Duke Divinity School - Our Faculty: Douglas Campbell
Douglas Campbell – Pauline Dogmatics: The Triumph of God's Love
Douglas Campbell – The Deliverance of God: An Apocalyptic Rereading of Justification in Paul
James Baldwin – The Fire Next Time
Richard Rorty – Achieving Our Country: Leftist Thought in Twentieth-Century America
Isaiah Berlin – The Crooked Timber of Humanity: Chapters in the History of Ideas
Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig Uffman’s Messages Along the Way
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
In our last episode, Rt. Rev. Dr. Prince Singh joined me to share his experiences as a boy growing up in South India as well as his experiences as a young priest engaging the consequences of caste serving communities of Dalits (formerly known as Untouchables), the lowest ranking on the caste system. In this episode, we will be picking up where we left off, although this time, we will shift our focus over to Bishop Singh's experience as a priest and bishop here in the United States.
As a reminder, Rt. Rev. Dr. Prince Singh is the eighth and current bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Rochester, NY. He was born in the larger state of Tamil Nadu in South India where he served many congregations as an Anglican priest before coming to the United States. While earning his PhD in New Jersey, he served multiple parishes and became such a powerful spiritual force that the people of Rochester called him to be their bishop. He has spent decades leading people to grapple with the challenges of racial reconciliation, and he is here to help us reflect on caste and to share his experiences of wrestling with racism here in the United States.
Bishop Prince shares what it was like to move here to the United States as a man of color, where he was now a minority. He reminds us of two of the main components of caste – purity and pollution – and how those components also play a role in racism here in the United States as White is often socially regarded as pure. Bishop Prince also acknowledges his privilege as a man and discusses how he goes about remaining aware of that privilege, and he offers some incredibly inspirational and moving grounds for hope for the future – such as humanity's move toward beloved community (a term that he explains and exemplifies) and how the COVID-19 pandemic has made some of us realize how divided we were even before the virus made us quarantine and be literally divided.
Speaking with Bishop Prince was such an uplifting experience as it always is, and I thank him for coming on the podcast to help us think about caste from the perspective of someone from India who is now living as a leader here in the United States. In our next two episodes, we will pivot from our historical descriptions of the realities of our racial tensions to do a deep dive into the habitual thoughts that cause and sustain said racial tensions. New Testament scholar Dr. Douglas Campbell of Duke will be joining us to help us think about the values that we tend to take for granted – values like love, justice, and freedom. Dr. Campbell believes that there are healthy and unhealthy ways to think about these values that can actually contribute to and perpetuate our racial tensions. Join us next time to learn more, and be sure to tell friends who might be interested in the podcast about us!
Show Notes:
[4:26] – Bishop Prince reflects on what it was like moving to the United States where he was now a minority as a man of color.
[5:56] – Bishop Prince frames New Jersey as more progressive than Virginia but also more complex.
[7:43] – The South and the North, Bishop Prince argues, have the same iterations of racism that are just manifested differently.
[10:00] – Bishop Prince reminds us of how caste involves perceived purity and impurity.
[12:05] – Bishop Prince addresses his privilege as a man and how he works to become more aware of that privilege.
[14:57] – Dr. Uffman offers insight on the hierarchical worldview described by Bishop Prince.
[16:17] – We learn what it is like for Bishop Prince being a parent of boys of color in Rochester.
[18:54] – Bishop Prince reveals what benefits resulted from one of his sons finding a school that embraced how he learned.
[21:16] – Bishop Prince reflects on what he has observed and processed in Rochester regarding race.
[22:38] – We learn about the antidote to internalized racism.
[25:28] – The only hope to fight structural and internalized racism is to embrace community and break down the walls that separate us.
[26:50] – We discover what Bishop Prince means when he refers to beloved community.
[29:30] – We cannot have dreams without reparations, Bishop Prince argues.
[32:35] – It's not about being colorblind, Dr. Uffman interprets, but is rather about being color-sensitive.
[33:30] – Bishop Prince shares what pockets of the beloved community that he has observed.
Links and Resources: Episcopal Diocese of Rochester – About the Rt. Rev. Prince G. Singh
Isabel Wilkerson – Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents
Program - Dalit Solidarity Forum in the USA, inc.
Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig Uffman’s Messages Along the Way
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
I am so happy to have Rt. Rev. Dr. Prince Singh join me in this episode of the podcast not only because of the invaluable wisdom that he has to offer but also because he is such a dear friend. Rt. Rev. Dr. Prince Singh is the eighth and current bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Rochester, NY. He was born in the larger state of Tamil Nadu in South India where he served many congregations as an Anglican priest before coming to the United States. While earning his PhD in New Jersey, he served multiple parishes and became such a powerful spiritual force that the people of Rochester called him to be our bishop. He joins me to share his personal experiences of wrestling with racism in both South India and here in the United States.
I met Prince ten years ago when I came to lead a parish here a year after he became the bishop. Bishop Prince has spent quite a long while leading people to grapple with the challenges of racial reconciliation, and he is here today to help us reflect on something that has been discussed several times in previous episodes of the podcast – caste. He reflects on his childhood and where he grew up, revealing that he grew up in a Christian family and that, as a young adult, he got his undergraduate degree in Zoology and his graduate degree in Public Administration.
Interestingly, Prince grew up as a boy not seeing the world through the perspective of caste. In fact, as he narrates in detail, he didn't have a great awareness of it and didn't really learn about it until later on when he encountered it for the first time. He theorizes as to why that is and admits to having been privileged because of his family's socioeconomic status and his parents having been college educated, describing his lack of awareness of the caste system as a child as a blessing but also problematic.
Prince also addresses the multifaceted nature of colonialism and how, from his perspective, it isn't all about domination and has actually had some positive impacts as well. He discusses the two components of caste and the intersectionality between caste and gender, ultimately ending here by pointing to the huge differences that he and his wife Roja Singh have helped make reality for many young girls who were otherwise victims of the caste system. In our next episode, Bishop Prince will be returning, and we will be continuing this conversation. We will follow his story to the United States and will learn how he experienced some of what we have been talking about in previous episodes of the podcast. Please join us, and be sure to tell friends who might be interested in the podcast about us!
Show Notes:
[1:09] – Dr. Uffman announces Rt. Rev. Dr. Prince Singh as this episode’s guest and briefly touches upon his credentials.
[3:27] – Bishop Prince helps us visualize where he grew up.
[5:14] – We learn about Bishop Prince's educational background.
[7:38] – Bishop Prince talks about his family's economic status while he was growing up.
[8:31] – Bishop Prince describes what the weather was like where he grew up, sharing that it was very hot and humid.
[11:17] – Dr. Uffman alludes to caste and recognizes it as a tool that we can use to help understand our current racial tensions.
[12:49] – Bishop Prince reflects on his childhood and what his experience was like as a Christian boy in his state.
[14:05] – We hear Bishop Prince recount one specific encounter when he observed caste play a role via someone's behavior.
[16:12] – Bishop Prince discusses his observations of villages having two parts because of caste.
[18:08] – Bishop Prince reveals that he encountered the concept of caste the most after becoming a priest, and he explains why.
[20:06] – Bishop Prince posits theories as to why he didn't grow up with much awareness of caste division.
[22:47] – Bishop Prince discusses colonialism and how it is a multifaceted system with many layers.
[25:42] – Bishop Prince credits the missionary movement as having had positive influences within India.
[28:06] – We learn a little bit about Bishop Prince's time as an Anglican priest in India.
[31:00] – Bishop Prince describes his early engagement as a priest in South India as adventurous.
[33:51] – Bishop Prince points out the problematic nature of state-enforced prevention of people choosing their own religion.
[36:51] – We hear about the flaws within Christianity because of how caste is sometimes followed even within the Christian faith.
[38:57] – Bishop Prince addresses the intersectionality between caste and gender.
[40:45] – We learn what the term manual scavenger means.
[43:48] – Some children would drop out of school because of being treated as manual scavengers, even by teachers.
[45:23] – Dr. Uffman reflects on how the differences that Bishop Prince and his wife Roja Singh have begun to make for young girls make for grounds for hope.
Links and Resources: Episcopal Diocese of Rochester – About the Rt. Rev. Prince G. Singh
Program - Dalit Solidarity Forum in the USA, inc.
Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig Uffman’s Messages Along the Way
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
Hello, folks! In the last episode, Dr. Kurt Culbertson joined us to help us understand some jargon from his life as a landscape architect – words and terms such as vacant land, habitat, and spatial justice. He also began to help us understand how historic government policies as well as local traditions have combined to limit the habitat choices especially of non-Whites and have constrained the flow of resources to the low income neighborhoods in which they have been allowed to live.
We concluded with a brief discussion of how land use and habitat choice are great examples that denote what we mean when we use phrases such as structural racism. We therefore finally dug into defining what structural racism means with some evidence and examples that are really hard to deny. We will be picking up where we left off in this episode, digging even more deeply into some persistent racial inequities in the domain of spatial justice.
As a reminder, Dr. Kurt Culbertson is a scholar and a practitioner in the field of urban renewal where he uses his expertise as a landscape architect to help cities imagine how to design landscapes that consider environmental, social, and economic factors so that they can best optimize spatial justice in the urban renewal efforts. Dr. Culbertson is chair and C.E.O. of Design Workshop, an international design studio out of Aspen, Colorado but with offices all over the world. They are most famous for their twelve projects that were selected as performance based case studies by the Landscape Architecture Foundation. In 2016, Kurt was awarded the American Society of Landscape Architects Medal which is the highest possible honor in his profession, and he is also the pastor of the ASLA Council of Fellows and The Cultural Landscape Foundation.
Kurt returns today to continue discussing inequities in the design of our communities today. Dr. Culbertson provides us with countless examples throughout history of Blacks and non-Whites being displaced and relocated out of their habitats to make room for architecture, interstates and highways, and so on – examples of egregious disturbances within the world of spatial justice. He touches upon pollution and health and safety hazards and their links to spatial justice and also offers some hope for the future, pointing toward an eminent quote from Theodore Parker as inspiration. He even offers some tips on what actions that we as average citizens can take to help equity progress and continue to arc forward.
These past two episodes with Kurt have been such a blessing because they have made it very clear what some folks mean when they refer to structural racism, a reality that we still need to wrestle with today. He has given us concrete examples as someone who is actually observing things on the ground, examples that point toward how historic policies and practices continue to shape our present. We covered so much ground, and I thank Kurt for joining us.
In our next episode, we will pivot from this practical deep dive into spatial justice in order to hear the personal experience and wisdom of Bishop Prince Singh, a man who has wrestled with racism as a person of color both in India and here in the United States. Prince spent a long time leading people to grapple with the challenges of racial reconciliation, and he will be joining us to help us reflect on phrases like caste and hierarchies of value. Until next time, thanks for tuning in, and be sure to invite your friends to listen as well!
Questions for Clergy and Other Group Leaders
- How does exposure to toxic pollution correlate with class and race? Why?
- How did St. Louis realtors in the 1960s and 1970s use blockbusting to generate profits and transformed entire neighborhoods they knew had environmental time bombs from white to black in a matter of years?
- How did the East Bank/West Bank vote on taxes to support flood insurance in the New Orleans metro area impact non-whites after the floods of 1980?
- Why do hurricanes impact non-whites disproportionately more than whites?
Show Notes:
[3:48] – Dr. Culbertson offers some egregious examples of disturbances in the domain of spatial justice.
[5:02] – Dr. Culbertson provides examples of population displacements and slum clearances in cities.
[8:02] – Dr. Uffman and Dr. Culbertson discuss Robert Moses and his move to intentionally design projects to exclude non-Whites and the poor.
[10:20] – Dr. Culbertson expands on how extensive the impact of the interstate highway system relocating Blacks and non-Whites has been.
[12:40] – Dr. Culbertson comments on how urban renewal legislation through the 1970s negatively impacted non-Whites.
[15:28] – Air quality and water quality affect public health which is another disturbance.
[18:25] – The projects in New Orleans leading to de facto segregation around the same time as Civil Rights legislation, Dr. Culbertson explains, was an unintended consequence.
[20:43] – Exposure to toxic pollution is correlated with class and race, and Dr. Culbertson elaborates upon that correlation.
[24:07] – Dr. Uffman and Dr. Culbertson discuss the phenomenon of flooding in cities and how it disproportionately affects non-Whites.
[26:30] – Dr. Culbertson expounds upon why natural disasters such as Hurricane Katrina tend to disproportionately impact non-Whites.
[29:25] – Dr. Culbertson reflects upon management decisions made to address shrinking cities and what that portends for non-Whites.
[31:47] – Dr. Culbertson points to a parks and open space plan that he just finished in Vancouver.
[34:23] – We discover how fragmented metropolitan governance has negatively impacted our ability to deal with spatial equity.
[37:33] – Dr. Culbertson points to some locations as grounds for hope.
[40:22] – Dr. Culbertson explains why taking formerly polluted lands and converting them into open space gives him hope and offers more examples of reasons for hope.
[42:40] – We learn how we can get involved in moving equity forward.
[44:23] – Dr. Culbertson analyzes the meaning behind a famous quote by Theodore Parker.
Links and Resources: Design Workshop - Website
Landscape Architecture Foundation - Website
ASLA Council of Fellows - Website
The Cultural Landscape Foundation – Website
Robert A. Caro - The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of New York
Environmental Protection Agency - EJSCREEN: Environmental Justice Screening and Mapping Tool
NPR – “Theodore Parker and the 'Moral Universe'”
Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig Uffman’s Messages Along the Way
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
We have a real treat for you today in this episode! Joining us is Dr. Kurt Culbertson, a scholar and a practitioner in the field of urban renewal where he uses his expertise as a landscape architect to help cities imagine how to design landscapes that consider environmental, social, and economic factors so that they can best optimize something that he refers to as spatial justice (which we're going to learn more about in this episode) in the urban renewal efforts.
Dr. Culbertson is chair and C.E.O. of Design Workshop, an international design studio out of Aspen, Colorado but with offices all over the world. They are most famous for their twelve projects that were selected as performance based case studies by the Landscape Architecture Foundation. In 2016, Kurt was awarded the American Society of Landscape Architects Medal which is the highest possible honor in his profession, and he is also the pastor of the ASLA Council of Fellows and The Cultural Landscape Foundation.
Kurt was awarded a PhD in Landscape Architecture from Edinburgh College of Art for his research that helps us in thinking about how we ought to use - as a society - our vacant lands. Kurt is here on the podcast to help us understand the inequities that we see in the design of our communities today. The Great Recession of 2008 led to Dr. Culbertson moving a bit away from commercial work and balancing a bit with public renewal projects.
The argument that structural and systemic racism is a myth is an argument that is not new; it has been being made for years, but Dr. Culbertson presents us with physical evidence of its reality – how human value has a hierarchy culturally attached to it is literally manifested in physical structures such as buildings and bridges. He touches upon various topics such as redlining and how physical evidence can be presented that proves that systemic racism and spatial injustice are still major problems even today.
We cover so much ground in terms of management decisions and the economic impact on issues of inequity. In our next episode, Dr. Culbertson will return to talk about what he refers to as disturbances and how we have actually taken actions that have made some things worse. He will share with us what approaches that have been taken that appear to be working to help mitigate this problem. Thanks for listening, and be sure to invite your friends to tune in as well!
Questions for Clergy and Other Group Leaders
- What is ‘vacant land’ and what does Dr. Culbertson denote when he speaks of spatial justice?
- To what extent have non-whites been limited in the choices and range of actions for the choice of habitat?
- Where did most non-whites live in our cities prior to the 1920s, and what habitat choices did they have during and after that period?
- How did government policy in the forms of SCOTUS decisions and legislative actions contributed to our current reality of ‘hollowed out cities’?
- How do we see the residual impact of redlining on our communities today?
- How has the fact that the average net worth for Black is a small fraction of that for Whites historically impacted Blacks’ ability to buy homes in safer neighborhoods, provide education for children, and withstand hardships?
Show Notes:
[3:40] – Dr. Uffman opens the conversation by talking about structural racism and points to the recent massacre of Asian women in Atlanta.
[5:12] – Dr. Culbertson defines the terms vacant land and spatial justice.
[8:18] – Dr. Culbertson explains why we are concerned about vacant land.
[10:30] – Dr. Culbertson describes what he is able to influence and change in his field.
[12:35] – Dr. Culbertson provides us with a potential reason why non Whites don't have the same choices as to where to live as Whites do.
[15:11] – Cities began to implement racial zoning, which Dr. Culbertson defines and explains.
[17:16] – Dr. Uffman shifts the conversation toward management decisions made by the executive branch and refers specifically to Herbert Hoover as an example.
[19:24] – Dr. Culbertson describes what life might have been like for non Whites in cities and what habitat choices that they had following the Emancipation Proclamation.
[22:27] – Dr. Uffman provides insight about his own observations in his hometown in Baton Rouge.
[24:27] – Dr. Culbertson expounds upon mortgage lending and suburbanization, returning to the subject of Herbert Hoover.
[26:55] – The process of redlining, Dr. Culbertson details, excluded the flow of resources especially for low income neighborhoods where a lot of people of color resided.
[29:08] – Dr. Culbertson asserts that redlining caused impacts that still linger today, almost a century later.
[31:39] – Dr. Uffman and Dr. Culbertson discuss the inequities around wealth creation.
[34:23] – Dr. Culbertson touches further upon management decisions and executive decisions impacting spatial justice.
[36:25] – Dr. Culbertson reflects upon how he would respond to someone who would argue that structural racism isn't real or is no longer a problem.
Links and Resources: Design Workshop - Website
Landscape Architecture Foundation - Website
ASLA Council of Fellows - Website
The Cultural Landscape Foundation - Website
Edward W. Soja - Seeking Spatial Justice (Volume 16) (Globalization and Community)
Conversations: Race on the Rocks - “How and Why We Birthed Jim Crow”
Conversations: Race on the Rocks - “Jim Crow: The Yankee Variant”
Conversations: Race on the Rocks - “Redline Reasoning: Why We Built Segregated Cities”
Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig's Messages Along the Way Podcast
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
We covered a lot of ground in beginning to understand racial inequities in the housing domain in our last episode. Mr. Salin Geevarghese joined us in that conversation, and we will be picking up where we left off in this episode, drilling down even deeper into that discussion. What are some of the obstacles that are impeding our dream of truly becoming the diverse and inclusive society that values equal opportunities for all? Tune in as we begin to answer that question.
As a reminder, Salin is a man with many hats but is probably best known for being a deputy assistant secretary at the Department of Housing and Urban Development for President Obama and his administration. He is currently one of the world's foremost experts in the art of bringing opposing groups together to transform racially polarized pockets of urban blight into sustainably inclusive cities and communities.
Salin's credentials make him the perfect guest to help us with our exploration of the stories that have shaped the racial landscape with which we currently wrestle, and this episode dives further into what we talked about last time about inequity within the housing domain. We discuss how getting rid of the Jim Crow Laws and implementing the 14th Amendment might have been progressive movements but did not solve all problems and certainly did not put an end to structural racism. Salin shares with us what the situation is like where he lives and how there is a shocking 15-20 year gap in life expectancy depending on what part of town you live, but he also lays down ground for hope and how even though we still have a long way to go, there are already signs of progress.
We have been so privileged to have an expert in this field come onto the podcast and help us understand so much of what many of us might not have been aware of. I hope that you will join us in our next episode when we meet another expert in a related field, Dr. Kurt Culbertson. Dr. Culbertson is a prominent landscape architect who has built some places that you would probably even recognize. We will dig deep into these issues of racial inequity from the perspective of landscaping and architecture. Thanks for listening, and be sure to invite your friends to tune in as well!
Questions for Clergy and Other Group Leaders
- To what extent have Fair Housing laws since 1968 remedied and prevented discriminatory land use and housing-related policies in the 2020s?
- What about inequitable community development practices?
- What about racial bias in mortgage lending and rental housing?
- What other racially biased policies and practices that have fostered pervasive negative impacts on non-whites that should concern us today?
- Describe the Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing Rule. How does it help us gather around a measure for weighing our success in correcting racial inequities in the housing and community development domain?
Show Notes:
[2:22] – Salin reveals why he began walking the path that he is on now and how he hopes more people will be inspired to work toward building a more inclusive nation.
[4:06] – Salin links our current discriminatory land use policies to the Jim Crow Laws and the Civil Rights Movement.
[6:52] – Dr. Uffman has a close friend who doesn't believe that structural racism exists because of the 14th Amendment having been passed.
[8:58] – Salin expounds upon the difference between law and practice within inequitable community development practices.
[9:40] – Salin explains how urban density is an indicator of structural racism.
[11:42] – You can hear people using both covert and overt language that speaks of trying to avoid living near people with less means or who look different than they do.
[14:11] – Salin explains how we are doing concerning racial bias within mortgage lending.
[15:54] – Communities need various types of housing in order to thrive.
[18:30] – Dr. Uffman and Salin discuss maps that show data supporting Salin's argument and how listeners can access them.
[21:48] – Salin provides other examples of pervasive policies and practices that have led to negative impacts on people of color.
[24:00] – Dr. Uffman gives an example of the post office serving as a bank to many who use money orders due to inequity.
[26:11] – The hierarchy of human value is something that permeates society all the time through social signals that are sent.
[28:30] – Salin worked during the Obama administration on a tool to help us build diverse and inclusive communities.
[31:18] – The Trump administration, as Salin describes, immediately delayed implementing Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing and ultimately rescinded it entirely.
[34:37] – Salin shares what he is currently seeing that seems to be promising.
[36:27] – It is important that we do something about the inequity of neighborhoods while also allowing people who don't want to move to stay where they are, and Salin details why that is.
[38:20] – Salin moves the conversation toward more concrete examples rather than abstract examples.
[40:38] – Salin reflects on the current state of the Sandtown-Winchester neighborhood of Baltimore.
[44:05] – There is grounds for hope, and we can be a part of the solution. There are already signs of progress.
[47:03] – Salin encourages listeners to be open and willing to understand that society's sense of hierarchy of human value is prevalent everywhere.
Links and Resources: Raj Chetty
Opportunity Insights
Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig's Messages Along the Way Podcast
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
Returning to the conversation is Mr. Salin Geevarghese, whom you may remember having been a guest on the very first episode of the podcast. Salin, as a reminder, is a man with many hats but is probably best known for being a deputy assistant secretary at the Department of Housing and Urban Development for President Obama and his administration. He is currently one of the world's foremost experts in the art of bringing opposing groups together to transform racially polarized pockets of urban blight into inclusive cities.
Salin's credentials make him the perfect guest to help us start our exploration of the stories that have shaped the racial landscape with which we currently wrestle, and this episode particularly dives into discrimination and inequities in the world of housing and how we can begin to hopefully find solutions to such problems. Although we will talk more about the hope and the possible solutions in our next episode, Salin begins to touch upon that near the end of this episode, sharing that new coalitions pushing for progress and the celebration of diversity gives him hope.
Salin gives us such a great introduction into the racial inequities that persist even today in the domain of housing. I hope that you will join us in our next episode as we continue this conversation, drilling more deeply into the challenges that have been brought about by our history of discriminatory policies. We will also begin to talk more deeply about hope and promising solutions. Thank you for listening, and be sure to invite your friends to listen in as well!
Questions for Clergy and Other Group Leaders
- As we seek to create diverse, inclusive communities in which all have a sense of belonging, what would success look like?
- Why are distressed neighborhoods so hard to turn around?
- What kind of progress can we celebrate in healing housing inequities since the 1960s civil rights legislation?
- How does bias remain a factor in where we live in such a way that, even in the 2020s, it determines the life chances of whites and non-whites differently?
Show Notes:
[4:18] – Salin begins by giving us an update on some of the challenges that still need to be confronted today when it comes to inequities in housing.
[7:16] – Salin comments on what goals that we should set and what success would look like, starting with physical transformation.
[8:55] – The second stage of success is the ability for new neighborhoods to attract and hold on to diverse residents.
[10:57] – Salin explains what the last stage of success is – addressing the unfinished business that we still actually have and questioning who is benefitting from what we are seeing.
[12:40] – We learn why it tends to be so difficult to reverse the situation for distressed neighborhoods.
[15:54] – Craig and Salin discuss hierarchies of human value and how Salin defines it.
[18:44] – Salin discusses what progress that we can celebrate that we have seen over the last several decades.
[20:22] – We have seen a rise in wealth in the United States, but the problem is that the wealth is concentrated.
[21:48] – Salin confidently asserts that implicit bias definitely plays a role in the problem of racially disparate housing.
[23:21] – Salin assures Dr. Uffman that implicit bias still plays a role a century after the 1920s and gives concrete examples.
[25:54] – Segregation continues to persist today, and the country is, in fact, resegregating.
[27:58] – Dr. Raj Chetty, the youngest professor to receive tenure at Harvard, has given us hard data that both sides of politics can agree on.
[30:17] – Where you grow up has a major impact on what opportunities that you have throughout life.
[31:53] – Salin encourages listeners to look at Dr. Chetty's research on Opportunity Insights.
[34:16] – Salin talks about his hope that we will see progress and change in our lifetimes due to progress that has already been made and unfinished business that we have yet to do.
[37:08] – Hope is very necessary right now because solidarity is constantly under attack.
Links and Resources: Raj Chetty
Opportunity Insights
Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig's Messages Along the Way Podcast
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
We covered a lot of ground with Dr. Derek Woodard-Lehman in our last episode of the podcast as he helped us consider why it's so difficult for some of us to have conversations about race and racism and whether or not racism is still a problem today. We also talked about colorblindness and how even though some people who say that they're colorblind might mean it from a place of good intent, it isn't yet a sufficient standard for us, and we discussed why that is. We also began to try to understand what is meant by the controversial phrase systemic racism, and we will be continuing that conversation today.
As a reminder, Dr. Woodard-Lehman teaches at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, specializing in Christian Ethics. He is focused particularly on how Christian commitments have mobilized political resistance to racial injustice. We have been talking about situations on the podcast such as the American Civil Rights Movement, which is definitely one such instance of this having happened.
I hope that you will join us as we continue this conversation, discussing topics such as the also controversial phrase critical race theory and political commentator David French's take on it, lawyer Kimberlé Crenshaw's take on intersectionality, white privilege and what it means, the distinction between guilt and responsibility in terms of white privilege and how we share that responsibility, and so much more!
I owe Dr. Woodard-Lehman so much gratitude for once again giving us so much to think about. I hope that you will join us in our next episode as we begin to look deeply at whether or not our racial disparities actually exist and whether or not they are systemic. Thank you for listening, and be sure to invite your friends to listen in as well!
Questions for Clergy and Other Group Leaders
- What is generally referred to when scholars speak of ‘whiteness’ as a way of analyzing our racial tensions and conceiving of solutions?
- What is critical race theory?
- What is intersectionality?
- How is it helpful to distinguish between guilt and responsibility in talking together about our racial tensions.
Show Notes:
[3:07] – Dr. Woodard-Lehman provides us with a reminder of the geological metaphor that he used in the last episode, comparing the formation of the Finger Lakes and the water that they supply to people to racism and inequity.
[6:10] – Dr. Woodard-Lehman adds that his metaphor applies to not only social problems of historical times but to social problems of today as well, even if such problems are not immediately visible to us.
[8:29] – People on both sides of this argument generally agree that there are statistical disparities.
[10:15] – Dr. Uffman recalls a conversation between Chris Wallace and Donald Trump about systemic racism and why Trump ended the racial sensitivity training that addresses white privilege.
[12:31] – Dr. Uffman switches gears to the executive order dictating that we are not allowed to teach the idea that the United States is inherently racist or sexist.
[15:42] – Dr. Woodard-Lehman defines critical race theory and what it entails.
[17:08] – Dr. Woodard-Lehman defines intersectionality – a central facet of critical race theory – and gives examples of it provided by lawyer Kimberlé Crenshaw.
[19:27] – Intersectionality is a tactic used to dismiss cases of discrimination based on one facet of a person's identity.
[22:38] – White privilege, as Dr. Woodard-Lehman expounds upon, has a broad spectrum of different meanings but does have an especially helpful and useful meaning.
[24:59] – White privilege oppresses not just Blacks but persons of color in general.
[25:29] – Dr. Woodard-Lehman provides us with an example of a time in college when something about him was wrongly assumed because of his race.
[28:16] – Dr. Uffman provides us with an example of a time in Times Square when he inadvertently benefitted from white privilege.
[31:03] – Dr. Uffman came to realize that white privilege, when it comes to how people are treated by police, is in part because of convict leasing in the south in the 1880s.
[32:42] – Dr. Woodard-Lehman emphasizes that experiences with law enforcement is one of the most important aspects of white privilege and provides further examples.
[35:45] – Dr. Uffman returns to the concept of inequity and racial sensitivity training.
[36:28] – One component of racial sensitivity training is sharing stories like Dr. Woodard-Lehman and Dr. Uffman have been doing and acknowledging white privilege as real.
[39:22] – An instructor crafting their syllabus with texts from white male scholars is not usually doing so out of ill intent.
[40:39] – Dr. Uffman reiterates how easy it is to see racial inequity and disparity as natural rather than socially constructed, something that he himself has done.
[43:02] – Dr. Woodard-Lehman stresses how white privilege can be blatant and obvious but can also be more subtle.
[45:57] – Dr. Uffman once again returns to Dr. Woodard-Lehman's water metaphor and emphasizes a distinction between guilt and responsibility.
[46:50] – Dr. Woodard-Lehman further explains the difference between guilt and responsibility and how we should be discussing responsibility rather than guilt.
[47:27] – Dr. Woodard-Lehman provides an example of responsibility over guilt coming into play when action needs to be taken to correct something that is wrong.
[50:10] – There are situations, such as in the example that Dr. Woodard-Lehman provides, when we must take responsibility for correcting wrongs even if we are not at fault.
[52:27] – Dr. Woodard-Lehman discusses our shared responsibility over social arrangements, responsibility that is ours even though we had little to no part in initially arranging them.
[53:45] – The difficulty that we have over having fruitful conversations about race and racism is partially because of how we wrestle with wondering who to blame.
[54:37] – Dr. Woodard-Lehman predicts what obstacles exist other than an inability to look past guilt.
[57:15] – Dr. Woodard-Lehman offers a potential explanation as to why some people might be inclined to disagree with antiracist ideology.
Links and Resources: Isabel Wilkerson – Caste: The Origins of Our Discontent Ibram X. Kendi – How to Be an Antiracist Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig's Messages Along the Way Podcast
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
Dr. Derek Woodard-Lehman joins me today to help us make sense of a lot of the jargon that we tend to hear surrounding racial tension – words and phrases such as racist, racism, critical race theory, and racial formation.
Derek teaches at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, specializing in Christian Ethics. He is focused particularly on how Christian commitments have mobilized political resistance to racial injustice. We have been talking about situations on the podcast such as the American Civil Rights Movement, which is definitely one such instance of this having happened.
I hope that you will join us as we discuss important topics such as the recent rise in racial tension in 2020 that took place especially during the presidential election, why people seem to be bothered and pained by racism still being a problem being brought up in conversation, whether or not it is sufficient to identify as colorblind, how there is a difference between equality and fairness, what racial formation is and how we should best approach talking about racism, and so much more.
Derek gives us a great deal of information to process, encouraging us to think about how our society is structured. Join us next time as Derek and I continue this conversation, making sense of what we have learned so far by remembering the American story more completely, and be sure to invite your friends to listen in as well!
Show Notes:
[2:04] – Dr. Uffman opens the conversation by discussing the rise in racial tension that permeated much of 2020 and the 2020 presidential election.
[4:36] – Dr. Derek Woodard-Lehman offers possible explanations as to why it tends to be painful for people to talk about racial tensions, explaining that some people take the suggestion that racism is still a problem as a personal attack.
[7:08] – There is a possibility, as Dr. Uffman and Derek both posit, that some people are bothered by the topic of racism because they see it not only as a personal attack but also as an attack on their culture or region of the country.
[10:06] – Derek evaluates the appropriateness of the term colorblind and whether or not it's sufficient to identify as such.
[12:18] – We hear Derek share a story of being in Upstate New York this past summer, offering the topology of the Finger Lakes as a metaphor for racism in current times.
[14:40] – Dr. Uffman provides us with insight as to why identifying as colorblind is not yet sufficient.
[17:15] – Derek gives us a metaphor for the appropriateness and sufficiency of identifying as colorblind – a metaphor involving being a coach on a soccer team in which your child is a teammate.
[19:32] – We should treat everyone fairly but not blindly. We have to account for various demographics and differences.
[22:19] – Derek touches upon systemic racism, offering his own definition of what it means when it's said that a community or a nation is systemically racist.
[24:39] – Derek uses a metaphor of water allocation as a link to systemic racism.
[25:45] – In Protestant tradition, there is a conception of sins as total depravity, and Derek explains what this means to him.
[27:52] – Derek ties the concept of total depravity to structural racism.
[30:35] – Derek begins to propose an appropriate way to discuss racism in, for example, a classroom setting.
[33:23] – We learn how Derek's pastor talked about racial formation as Derek was growing up.
[36:38] – Dr. Uffman offers closing insight on the conversation, presenting the possibility that speaking of racism should not necessarily be assessing one individual's motives.
Links and Resources: Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig's Messages Along the Way Podcast
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
In our last episode, Dr. Kevin Boyle joined us to help us understand how the Reagan coalition led to three decades of law and order politics taking precedence over civil rights enforcement. We also briefly discussed the war on drugs and how that tied into issues of race and the impact that it had on minorities, but that was really just a brief introduction to it.
We now pick up where we left off in that conversation, digging deeper into the problem of mass incarceration that resulted from the war on drugs first initiated by Richard Nixon, and we also begin to talk about a highly controversial topic even today – protection of minority voting rights.
As a reminder, Dr. Boyle is a professor at Northwestern University specializing in 20th century United States history. He has a particular focus on modern American social movements, such as the Civil Rights Movement (which, of course, happens to be our focus). He also has a long list of publications and honors including fellowships from the National Endowment for the Humanities and the Andrew Carnegie Corporation. He is the highly acclaimed author of Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age, which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize and won the National Book Award for Nonfiction and many others.
Join us today as we dig deeper into the events in United States history that have shaped the racial landscape of today. We discuss the increased incentive to increase the prison population due to having criminalized American Blacks and poor Americans. Dr. Boyle also talks about voter suppression and how numerous attempts have been made over the years, especially by Republican politicians, to find creative ways of suppressing the Black vote.
Dr. Boyle stresses, however, that hope is not lost. We have seen a rise in activism and conversation, such as the Black Lives Matter movement, in recent years which indicates that people believe that change is possible.
While this unfortunately closes up my conversation with Dr. Boyle, I hope that you will join me next time as I bring on another guest who will talk to us about how Christian commitments have mobilized political resistance to racism. Be sure to invite your friends to listen in as well!
Questions for Clergy and Other Group Leaders
- How did the economics of prisoner leasing create incentives for municipalities to arrest more people?
- How does the reality of mass incarceration affect non-minority voting?
- What strategies have been pursued since the Voting Rights Act of 1965 to suppress non-White votes?
Show Notes:
[3:06] – Dr. Uffman returns to the conversation around the experience of the young Black man or woman at the time, referring to their experience as a triple whammy.
[4:07] – Dr. Boyle makes a connection between a local economy collapsing and illicit economy.
[6:01] – The Bill Clinton administration, as Dr. Boyle explains, took a bipartisan approach by encouraging Democrats to embrace Reagan's politics.
[7:07] – Dr. Boyle describes the language used by both parties to describe some Blacks, language such as super predators.
[8:06] – Dr. Boyle discusses how mandatory sentencing led to a vast increase in the prison population.
[10:07] – We created a profit incentive, as Dr. Uffman points out, for the arrest of people who could do manual labor, leading to the poor and Blacks being arrested because they were already criminalized by Whites.
[12:49] – Dr. Uffman reflects on how many Blacks are unfairly trapped in patterns of poverty.
[14:30] – Dr. Boyle defines what the Voting Rights Act of 1965 was and what it put into effect.
[15:55] – In the late 1990s and early 2000s, some Republicans were attempting to suppress the Black vote in sneaky ways such as limiting polling places in predominantly Black communities.
[18:17] – Dr. Boyle gives an example of the Republican party recently attempting to suppress the entire vote of Detroit in the 2020 presidential election.
[21:06] – An example is offered and described by Dr. Uffman of attempting to suppress votes by requiring an official ID or driver's license.
[22:47] – Dr. Boyle explains how gerrymandering works in different ways on a racial basis such as splitting up a Black community between two White communities.
[24:45] – Gerrymandering can actually reduce the value of a singular vote.
[27:29] – Dr. Uffman prompts Dr. Boyle to focus on hope for the future, and Dr. Boyle credits the Black Lives Matter movement as a reason to have hope.
[30:09] – Dr. Boyle reiterates that there is disagreement around the solution to the problems such as whether or not we should defund the police.
Links and Resources: * James Forman Jr. – Locking Up Our Own: Crime and Punishment in Black America
Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig's Messages Along the Way Podcast
More from Dr. Kevin Boyle:
- Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
In our previous episode, Dr. Kevin Boyle joined us to talk about the political coalition that united working Whites and northern Blacks during the FDR era. We also discussed how Richard Nixon's law and order rhetoric led to a rise in White resistance. We are picking up where we left off in this episode and will be tracing the strategy of the Nixon administration to shift the national focus toward priorities other than racial equality.
As a reminder, Dr. Boyle is a professor at Northwestern University specializing in 20th century United States history. He has a particular focus on modern American social movements, such as the Civil Rights Movement. Dr. Boyle has a long list of publications and honors including fellowships from the National Endowment for the Humanities and the Andrew Carnegie Corporation. He is the highly acclaimed author of Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age, which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize and received the National Book Award for Nonfiction and many others.
Join us today as we dig deeper into the events in United States history that have shaped the racial landscape of today. Dr. Boyle discusses at length how many Whites resisted school integration and how that led to long delays in integration actually being put into effect, resulting in schools actually being more segregated today than they were when forced busing was ordered by the federal government. He also begins to give us a solid understanding of how Nixon's election led to a war on drugs which caused a mass incarceration of Blacks in the United States and also caused a major shift away from civil rights legislation.
Join us next time as we dig more deeply into the issue of mass incarceration targeting Black males. We will also discuss how well we have managed to protect the voting rights of minorities. Be sure to invite your friends to listen in as well!
Questions for Clergy and Other Group Leaders 1. How did school desegregation turn out in South and North? What’s the status now? 2. How did segregation, the advent of the Information Age, and globalization impact Blacks young men and women in the mid-1980s? 3. How the Reagan coalition impacted blacks in terms of the safety net promises of the Great Society? 4. What did both parties think would happen and what actually happened in our War on Drugs? How did that impact minorities?
Show Notes: [3:25] – Dr. Uffman discusses his own experience with segregation and desegregation growing up, noting that his high school didn't integrate until he was a junior in college.
[4:23] – Dr. Uffman fast-forwards to the 1990s, illustrating the changes that had taken place since his youth.
[6:39] – Dr. Boyle further elaborates upon what happened following the Brown vs. Board of Education ruling in the mid-1950s, such as how many schools found loopholes to delay desegregation.
[8:08] – Dr. Boyle explains when schools in northern states needed to, by law, start desegregating and what happened as a result.
[9:12] – The critical way to integrate schools, as Dr. Boyle emphasizes, was between cities and suburbs, which led to the Supreme Court ruling in 1974 that that didn't need to be done, resulting in integration in the north coming to a halt.
[10:27] – Dr. Uffman reiterates that re-segregation is not strictly a southern phenomenon, and Dr. Boyle agrees, emphasizing that segregation is more common nowadays in the north than it is in the south.
[11:38] – Many of the United States' industrial jobs moved to other countries, and Dr. Boyle begins to touch upon what that meant for Whites and Blacks competing for industrial jobs.
[13:45] – Dr. Boyle clarifies why the shift of industrial jobs was significant from a racial standpoint, pointing to what effect that it had on Blacks at the time.
[15:52] – Dr. Uffman offers a hypothesis of how youth was not properly equipped for the new information age, and Dr. Boyle further describes what the experience might have been like for a young Black man in a big city around that time.
[17:39] – Dr. Uffman argues that the success of Barack Obama and Michelle Obama should not serve as proof that there isn't a racial problem in the United States.
[18:49] – Dr. Boyle comments on how young men and women, especially men, got caught up in the war on drugs due to joblessness.
[21:05] – Dr. Uffman prompts Dr. Boyle to talk about Ronald Reagan's harmful rhetoric regarding welfare queens and predators, prefacing that he looked up to Reagan because of the positive things that Dr. Uffman saw from him while he served in the military.
[23:36] – Ronald Reagan, as described by Dr. Boyle, was a conservative Republican in the Goldwater tradition, which meant that he believed that welfare entitled people, making them think that they didn't have to work.
[25:32] – Dr. Boyle points out that it wasn't likely a coincidence that Reagan chose to kick off his campaign in Philadelphia, Mississippi – the town where civil rights activists were infamously murdered only sixteen years prior.
[27:13] – Dr. Boyle makes the case that Reagan's agenda was an approach to small government that he infused with racial dog whistles that then became a large part of future conservative politics.
[29:18] – Dr. Boyle insists that Richard Nixon began the war on drugs and that one of the main problems with it is that it had a racist agenda and was creating mass incarceration for Blacks.
Links and Resources: Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig's Messages Along the Way Podcast
More from Dr. Kevin Boyle:
- Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
In our last episode, we concluded a conversation with Dr. Kevin Boyle about the struggles and the fruits of our Civil Rights era. Specifically, we talked about our struggle toward justice in regards to housing, education, and the right to vote. Welcoming back Dr. Kevin Boyle as today’s guest, we take a few steps back to discuss the New Deal and its impact on the Civil Rights Movement in the 60s.
As a reminder, Dr. Boyle is a professor at Northwestern University specializing in 20th century United States history. He has a particular focus on modern American social movements, such as the Civil Rights Movement. Dr. Boyle has a long list of publications and honors including fellowships from the National Endowment for the Humanities and the Andrew Carnegie Corporation. He is the highly acclaimed author of Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age, which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize and received the National Book Award for Nonfiction and many others.
Join us today as we dig deeper into the events in United States history that have shaped the racial landscape of today.
Questions for Clergy and Other Group Leaders 1. What was the New Deal coalition, and how did FDR create it legislatively? 2. Summarize briefly the three legislative achievements of the Great Society concerning civil rights. What hopes did they spawn? 3. Describe the massive shift in the electorate and the rise of a new governing coalition that began to appear with Nixon. 4. How did White rage in response to civil rights legislation and fear set the stage for law and order politics to dominate the ensuing decades?
Show Notes: * [3:15] - Dr. Boyle begins the conversation today by describing the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibited the segregation of public space and outlawed discrimination in employment. * [4:02] - The enduring achievements of the second civil rights movement were the the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and the Housing Act of 1968. * [5:13] - Dr. Uffman reminds us that there was a Civil Rights Act passed after the Civil War but was famously vetoed by Andrew Johnson. * [6:01] - Following the veto of that first Civil Rights Act, Dr. Uffman lists several events that took place to lead the United States to its condition in the 1950s and 60s. * [8:22] - Discussing the achievements of President Franklin D. Roosevelt in the 1930s, Dr. Boyle explains the New Deal and its intent. * [10:01] - The New Deal put into place several job programs to build the economy back up after the Great Depression. It also established Social Security which Dr. Boyle describes. * [11:33] - The New Deal programs reached out to poor white people and to poor black people but not at the same rate. * [12:29] - Early on, huge numbers of black people are excluded from Social Security. They are not allowed to participate in it. * [12:50] - For all that discrimination, though, New Deal programs did help Blacks in a way that the government hadn’t done before. Half of Black population in major cities were receiving federal aid. * [13:24] - By reaching out in this way, President Roosevelt reconfigures the electoral landscape so that the Democrats become the majority party. Dr. Boyle describes how Roosevelt did this and the types of voters he drew in. * [15:41] - In the 60s, Lyndon Johnson won the election by a landslide and put into place a culmination of the New Deal. He didn’t create programs, but he made them bigger, and they were called the Great Society. * [17:02] - The two most important programs that came out of the Great Society are Medicare and Medicaid, which we still have in place to this day. * [18:07] - Dr. Uffman points out that at this time there was an effort to suppress the black vote, with the percentage of active black voters decreasing to 1% in some areas. * [21:08] - Dr. Boyle describes the urban upheaval in the late 60s that “ruptured apart” the New Deal coalition and how this affected the election of 1968. * [22:44] - Richard Nixon ran as the voice of the middle class. He wasn’t calling Whites to rampage, but rather appealing to Whites who wanted things to be calm. * [24:07] - Dr. Uffman references The Moynihan Report and the sociological factors that generated violence in urban areas where these riots were taking place. * [25:01] - Moynihan’s argument was about the breakdown of the black family. There was a rise in single parent motherhood in black communities and he argued that there was a series of structural issues that led to this going all the way back to slavery. * [25:58] - The Moynihan Report publication date coincided with the rising fear among Whites of black lawlessness. There is not necessarily a direct connection between reality and the panic people sometimes get about crime. * [26:47] - Blacks staged urban upheavals as a political response to racial oppression but Whites saw them as random violence. * [27:04] - In 1966, the FBI altered the way they collected crime data. When they did that, the reports of crime spiked and made it look like we were in the middle of a crime spike. Republicans picked this up in 1968. * [28:02] - Dr. Boyle describes this as “the perfect storm” leading into more upheavals and violence going into the 1968 election. * [28:44] - Dr. Boyle uses an example from his hometown of Detroit setting up a rumor control center that had an extreme increase of calls after the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr. * [30:27] - The most common rumor that came through at this time was that Blacks were going to go through all the suburbs of white communities and kill all the white children. That is the depth of paranoia and given the time of year was also “the passover.”
Links and Resources: Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig's Messages Along the Way Podcast
More from Dr. Kevin Boyle:
- Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
With the help of our guest, Dr. Kevin Boyle, we have covered a lot of ground. In the last episode, we paused to synthesize all of the previous ten episodes, so that is an excellent summary to listen to if you are just joining in the conversation. That last episode also helped us set the stage for understanding the nonviolent movement of the 1950s and 60s that sought to restore the civil rights that were already guaranteed to all citizens by the 14th and 15th amendments but denied to Blacks during our Jim Crow era. Dr. Boyle helped us drill down into some details regarding the players, strategies, and objectives of both sides in the battle for equal opportunity in our public spaces.
Dr. Boyle is a professor at Northwestern University specializing in the 20th century United States history. He has a particular focus on modern American social movements, such as the Civil Rights Movement. Dr. Boyle has a long list of publications and honors including fellowships from the National Endowment for the Humanities and the Andrew Carnegie Corporation. He is the highly acclaimed author of Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age, which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize and received the National Book Award for Nonfiction and many others.
Today we pick up where we left off, tracing the pivotal moments of the quest for legislation that would finally provide equal rights. We end today's eye-opening conversation with grounds for hope as we move forward to pursue racial equality in America.
Questions for Clergy and Other Group Leaders 1. How did we use everyday practices to enforce notions of caste? 2. So how did the movement leaders take on American practices of caste? 3. How did we get to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and what was its significance? 4. How did we get to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and what was its importance? 5. What are some of the characteristic techniques the moderate white eschews the language of segregation and white supremacy while obstructing the change needed?
Show Notes: * [2:50] - In the last episode, Dr. Boyle shared with us the beginnings of America's first nonviolent movement and how it sought to call us all to be our best selves and a part of one beloved community. * [3:54] - The people involved in this first nonviolent movement of this era were courageous in their fight for equal rights, and Dr. Uffman reminds us that they were very young. John Lewis, for example, at this time was only 19 years old. * [5:04] - The movement followed the Gandhian principles of starting small. They began at the lunch counters, stood up for justice, and then moved out into wider protests. * [5:52] - One of the tricky things about nonviolent protests is that they result in violence. Dr. Boyle explains how this nonviolent protest resulted in White outrage and mass arrests. * [6:17] - Gandhian tactics create bigger and bigger and bigger events that will freeze up the power structure so that the powerless can bring down the powerful through nonviolent means. Through that, you will create the beloved community described in the Bible. * [6:55] - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s "I Have a Dream" speech is evoking the beloved community, but we can't hear it anymore. We've heard it so many times. * [7:58] - Dr. Boyle describes the Freedom Riders. They were pacifists who would defy local law on the bus and bear witness. This began with CORE, a group of radical pacifists in the 1940s. * [8:50] - In 1961, a small group of pacifists heads off on the Freedom Rides, get down to Alabama, and are brutally attacked by Whites. CORE called it all off. * [9:39] - SNCC in Nashville picked up the Freedom Rides again, and they were also attacked. Although they were beaten, Freedom Riders accomplished the constitutional crisis they sought. * [10:40] - President Kennedy at that time gave them federal protection. They could force federal action through redemptive suffering. * [11:01] - Dr. Uffman points out the distinction that this was interstate transportation. Because they were crossing state lines, President Kennedy could step in. * [12:31] - Blacks were stripped of their right to vote through disenfranchisement laws. One of the Civil Rights Movement's ironies is that you had to take your politics into the street because of disenfranchisement, and they did, to enormous effect. * [14:00] - After Johnson was elected in 1964, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s organization demanded voting rights. Johnson was a supporter of voting rights, but he didn't want to work on that yet. Using the same Gandhian tactics, people marched to the courthouse in Selma, Alabama, and as they were turned away, they would come back in more significant numbers. * [15:14] - One of the protestors in Alabama was killed, and this sparked the decision to do a more dramatic demonstration: a march from Selma to Montgomery. This was a dangerous path through Alabama. * [16:10] - Marchers set out but could not leave Selma as they were attacked by state troopers. The footage from this played on national television. * [17:15] - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., who was not present at the Selma attack, traveled there and called all people of faith to join him in Selma as an act of moral witness. Nuns, priests, ministers, and rabbis flooded the town. A minister was killed, which led to more protests, and eventually, protests were started nationwide. * [18:15] - The pressure became so great on Lyndon Johnson, he had to introduce voting rights legislation. Dr. Boyle describes this as one of the most extraordinary events of any presidency. * [19:02] - Quoting President Johnson, Dr. Boyle explains how his speech to legislate voting rights made him one with the movement and demonstrated the beloved community. * [20:10] - This moment was incredible, but Dr. Uffman also points out that there was backlash, and a woman was killed as a result. * [21:01] - Another crucial piece to this story was the availability of television and watching footage of the violence and brutality. * [22:05] - Shifting focus to the northern states, Dr. Boyle explains that there was no northern state that embraced disenfranchisement, but segregation in housing and education was enforced through violence. * [23:27] - Brown did not apply to these northern states because segregation was not supported or enforced by law. * [23:43] - Voting rights aside, the difference between the north and the south regarding segregation and violence was not very profound. * [25:22] - Dr. Uffman refers to a book called Cold War Civil Rights by Mary Dudziak. He points out that our struggle to protect Blacks' rights was seen by other countries and used in propaganda campaigns. * [26:52] - One of the ways the Civil Rights Movement was resisted was to label institutions as communist. The NAACP was attached as communist and outlawed in many states. * [28:45] - The myth that these problems were only in the south has been deeply ingrained for a long time. The state department marginalized the race problem as only in the south to demonstrate that it was not an American problem. They claimed it to be only a regional problem with culture. * [30:40] - When we think of Jim Crow, we tend to only think about drinking fountains and seats on a bus, but this is a way to narrow the race problem. * [31:26] - Dr. Boyle illustrates the current race problem in his town of Chicago, comparing the reaction to segregated drinking fountains and housing. * [32:44] - Dr. Uffman quotes the book A More Beautiful and Terrible History by Jeanne Theoharis that illustrates this myth on a more personal level. Her point is that to whitewash our past and maintain structures, we've had to create a culprit of stereotype: the redneck. * [33:42] - Using Nixon's campaign moves to illustrate, Dr. Uffman explains racists were redefined. A racist isn't that genteel moderate politician that is signing the Southern Manifesto. The only racist is the redneck. * [35:27] - There is a lot of argument surrounding an end date for the Civil Rights Movement. Dr. Boyle lists several ends that have been suggested. * [36:29] - Regarding federal legislation and policies in the 1970s, Whites stepped away from progress, stating they had done enough. Dr. Boyle uses the series of court cases in the 70s to illustrate this. * [37:01] - Dr. Boyle explains how we have moved backward in segregation, especially regarding schools, poverty, and incarceration. * [38:44] - Dr. Boyle also shares how we are currently experiencing another Civil Rights movement because of this backward movement. * [40:06] - "I don't think democracy works without hope. Democracy is built on a faith in each other and a faith in our possibilities. Even in very dark times, I think what we risk by abandoning hope is we risk the very experiment of democracy." - Dr. Kevin Boyle * [40:54] - Dr. Boyle believes that Blacks are the most devout Americans in many ways because, despite our history, they continue to believe and demand that America believe. This is demonstrated in the last election. * [42:03] - Vice President Kamala Harris as the first biracial and female vice president is another step forward and grounds for hope.
Links and Resources: Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig's Messages Along the Way Podcast
More from Dr. Kevin Boyle:
- Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
In the last episode, we began a conversation about our Civil Rights era's struggles and fruits. With our guest Dr. Kevin Boyle, we discussed the efforts to obtain equal opportunity housing and began a discussion about the segregation and desegregation of schools.
Dr. Boyle is a professor at Northwestern University specializing in 20th century United States history. He has a particular focus on modern American social movements, such as the Civil Rights Movement. Dr. Boyle has a long list of publications and honors, including fellowships from the National Endowment for the Humanities and the Andrew Carnegie Corporation. He is the highly acclaimed author of Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age, which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize and received the National Book Award for Nonfiction and many others.
As we begin to shift our focus to voting rights, we need to cover more ground and discuss why there was such a struggle. In today's episode, we take a few minutes to recap the events we've already talked about that laid the foundation for this struggle, and we dive a little deeper into the segregation of schools and public places.
Questions for Clergy and Other Group Leaders 1. How did the Southern states enact their strategy of “stall and defy”? 2. How did the Northern states enact their own version of “stall and defy”? 3. What was the context that led to the sit-ins at Woolworth’s in Greensboro and Nashville? How were ue everyday practices used to enforce notions of caste? 4. What strategy did civil rights leaders pursue in their efforts to eliminate these government-sanctioned traditions and practices of caste? Why was the example of the Beloved Community so powerful for many Americans?
Show Notes: * [3:18] - Dr. Uffman refers back to a previous episode with Dr. Kate Masur. They talked about the national economy fueled by the commodity of cotton and US dominance of this market by exploiting Black labor. * [4:19] - When Black leaders were asked what they wanted most that would enable them to prosper as newly freed people, they named just two things: land and education. * [5:01] - Especially in the South, in many ways, Whites denied Blacks land and education, giving them little option but to sell their labor for low wages. * [5:48] - For two centuries, Blacks were denied education to prevent them from rising above their racial hierarchy station. For generations, the United States would not invest in the education of Blacks. * [6:34] - Dr. Uffman describes the measures taken by southern Whites to prevent Blacks from migrating north. * [7:11] - In the 20th century, Dr. Uffman explains white capping as running Blacks off the land by extralegal means through terror and intimidation. * [7:47] - Whites continued to invent ways to block Blacks from gaining space and education, specifically restrictive covenants in housing and segregated schools. * [8:31] - Through government-initiated redlining, Blacks couldn't get a mortgage or live in areas outside their designated and segregated neighborhoods. * [8:57] - The cycle of progress followed by backlash continued from the Civil War onward. * [9:16] - After decades of obtaining incremental rulings, great American heroes like Thurgood Marshall proved to the Supreme Court that states couldn't provide separate but equal educational opportunities. * [11:42] - In May of 1954, there was a period where Civil Rights activists thought that change would come right away. Five hundred school districts voluntarily desegregated their schools. There was a sense that real change was coming. * [12:43] - "And then what started to happen was that many of the white politicians of the south, the white democrats who had a real vested interest in maintaining the Jim Crow system, mounted this full-throated attack on the Brown ruling. They said that it was an abomination." - Dr. Kevin Boyle * [13:12] - The Supreme Court did not say how fast the states must comply with the Brown ruling. Many southern states refused to comply, which caused a constitutional crisis. * [14:10] - The opposition that Southern leadership put in place filtered down into the business class who created a White Citizens' Council network. Dr. Boyle describes what this did to intimidate Blacks through their economic standing. * [15:03] - To benefit from the order to desegregate schools, Blacks needed to appeal to their school districts for permission to attend a White school. The point of the White Citizens' Councils was to intimidate Blacks so that they would not press for desegregation in their community. * [15:44] - From the business class, the opposition trickled down into violence. Dr. Boyle uses the story of Emmett Till to illustrate the level of violence during this time. * [16:29] - Bringing the Southern Manifesto into the discussion, Dr. Uffman lists some prominent senators and representatives who did not sign, including Lyndon B. Johnson. * [17:12] - Dr. Boyle explains the feedback loop created by the initial opposition of southern politicians that led to the Southern Manifesto. * [17:58] - Dr. Uffman compares the Southern Manifesto language to the language we hear today regarding the Supreme Court's overreaching. * [18:41] - After the Brown ruling, Southern Whites increased efforts to suppress Black votes. Dr. Uffman points out that the state of Georgia changed its flag and passed a resolution repealing the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution. * [19:56] - Dr. Boyle explains that Whites had doubled down on Jim Crow as a defense of what they had come to see as their way of life. It turned already rapid racism into something deeper and more explosive. * [21:19] - Dr. Uffman lists the states that by 1963 did not have a single black child attending school with white children. * [22:09] - The state of Delaware voted to take a 12-year delay before they even thought about desegregating schools. Many districts in the state of Virginia shut down their public school system completely for years. * [24:37] - The implementation order that came a year after the Brown ruling, called Brown II, decreed that states would need to desegregate schools "with all deliberate speed." The vague language created the possibility for states to ignore the ruling, and they did. * [25:44] - Later, part of federal aid qualification to public schools was to comply with Brown. Then schools tried to find ways to avoid compliance without appearing to. * [26:33] - Dr. Uffman illustrates just how long it took for his hometown to adopt any solution to comply with the Brown ruling. * [27:33] - Most people may not realize that the Brown decision did not apply to the northern states. It applied only to states where schools were segregated by law. In the north, although schools were segregated, they were not segregated wasn't by law. * [28:26] - The NAACP then launched a series of court cases that lasted many years in an attempt to get justices to see that northern schools were also segregated. * [30:03] - The northern states got around this because children attended their neighborhood schools. Because neighborhoods were segregated, they didn't need to enforce segregation of schools by law. * [32:00] - The segregation of space served two purposes. One was economical, and the other was about humiliation. Dr. Boyle uses the examples of separate drinking fountains and seating on buses to illustrate how Whites reminded Blacks symbolically that they were of less value in the social hierarchy. * [33:08] - Dr. Boyle shares a story from a colleague not being allowed to try on a hat in a Woolworth's in the 1960s because of the color of her skin. This was so humiliating for her that she remembers it decades later. * [34:40] - Access to public spaces was all symbolic. It was about imprinting that caste system into people's minds, both Blacks and Whites. * [36:18] - Dr. Boyle describes the start of the sit-in movement and tells the story of Reverend James Lawson as an organizer of nonviolent campaigns against racial segregation. * [38:50] - Shifting to Martin Luther King, Jr., Dr. Boyle explains how King took the Christian story of redemption and infused it into the movement. * [40:44] - Before the sit-ins took off, Lawson preached and trained young men and women, including John Lewis. The goal of sit-ins during this wave of activism is to create "The Beloved Community." * [42:09] - Dr. Boyle describes the beginning of the sit-in movement that led to Martin Luther King Jr.'s creation of SNCC. SNCC became the "shock troops" of the Civil Rights Movement. * [42:54] - Next episode, we will welcome back Dr. Kevin Boyle to discuss voting rights.
Links and Resources: Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig's Messages Along the Way Podcast
More from Dr. Kevin Boyle:
- Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
In this eye-opening episode, we welcome back Dr. Kevin Boyle. In the previous episode, Dr. Boyle reminded us of important parts of the 20th century Civil Rights Movement regarding, in particular, how housing policies and private practices sculpted the racial topography with which we struggle today.
Dr. Boyle is a professor at Northwestern University, specializing in the history of the 20th century United States. He has a particular focus on modern American social movements, such as the Civil Rights Movement. Dr. Boyle has a long list of publications and honors including fellowships from the National Endowment for the Humanities and the Andrew Carnegie Corporation. He is the highly acclaimed author of Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age, which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize and received the National Book Award for Nonfiction and many others.
In today’s episode, we pick up where we left off as a segue into our discussion on education and schools’ desegregation. What progress did we make in the 60s and 70s, and how has that progress impacted us today? Dr. Boyle connects the housing regulations we discussed in the last episode to the problems the country faced in schools during that time. Although Dr. Boyle shares that our progress continues to be painfully slow, he gives us grounds for hope as we continue to try to move forward in understanding the structural racism of the past and present.
Questions for Clergy and Other Group Leaders 1. What was schooling like for persons of color? What de facto public policies did we sustain that distinguished what was possible for whites and persons of color in both the South and the North? 2. What constitutional crisis did the Little Rock Nine provoke when the Arkansas governor ordered the National Guard to prevent them from attending a White school? What federal policy arose from that crisis? 3. What educational crisis did President Nixon inherit and how was it resolved? 4. How did busing seek to desegregate the schools and how was it received by Whites and Blacks? What crucial limitation did the Supreme Court of the United States place on busing that resulted in a hardening of the color lines in our cities, strengthening structural racism?
Show Notes: * [3:07] - Dr. Boyle starts today by reminding us about housing and the accessibility of housing in the 1950s and 1960s. * [4:22] - In Dr. Boyle’s book, he demonstrates how Blacks pushed back against the system from the 1920s onward. * [5:01] - Three times, the United States Congress tried to pass legislation that would make housing practices of the 50s and 60s illegal. It failed twice but passed in 1968 after the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr. * [5:50] - Although the Fair Housing Act of 1968 passed, many discriminatory practices continued due to lack of enforcement. * [6:23] - Dr. Boyle illustrates current segregation in housing with the 2010 census data. Housing is still to this day the most enduring form of segregation. * [8:54] - Shifting to the topic of education, Dr. Boyle and Dr. Uffman discuss the NAACP’s long legal campaign against the legal segregation of schools. * [9:50] - Brown v. Board of Education is a landmark case, but Dr. Boyle points out that it only applied to those states where school segregation was legal. The ruling was ambiguous, and not much changed. * [10:55] - The school board in Little Rock, Arkansas, decided to work with the NAACP and the federal court to desegregate their schools by bringing nine black students into their all-white schools. * [11:52] - Bringing in nine students of color created a considerable backlash from the community’s Whites. At the last minute, the governor of Arkansas called the National Guard to prevent them from entering the school. * [12:41] - Dr. Boyle explains why the Arkansas governor’s actions caused a constitutional crisis and how the Little Rock Nine insisted on their rights to enter the school. * [14:31] - Dr. Uffman points out that this problem lasted weeks, and the world witnessed America’s contradictions. * [15:57] - Eisenhower was known not to support desegregation, but Dr. Uffman points out that he pushed his own beliefs aside to uphold the law. * [17:27] - Little Rock became infamous, but it was a local case. As courageous Blacks insisted on their right to attend desegregated schools, similar scenarios unfolded across the United States in the 1960s. * [18:23] - Reminding us that Brown v. Board of Education only affected those states in which segregated schools were legal, Dr. Boyle explains how schools in states that were stalling this process were forced to make changes immediately when the Supreme Court clarified previously ambiguous language in their ruling. * [19:03] - When Nixon came into office in 1969, he faces the situation of northern schools resisting desegregation directives as well. * [19:40] - The problem states were now faced with was how to desegregate schools since neighborhoods remained segregated. * [20:03] - The most common solution to this was busing, and as the federal government directed busing Blacks to formerly white schools and Whites to formerly black schools, parents hated it. * [21:44] - Dr. Boyle explains that busing was a critical and radical moment in the Civil Rights movement because it forced millions of Whites into having a personal stake in civil rights. * [22:18] - Reminding us of the White flight they discussed in the previous episode, Dr. Boyle explains how the courts required these segregated suburbs to bus students to different schools as well. * [23:40] - Dr. Boyle uses Detroit’s example to illustrate cross-district busing as there were so few Whites in Detroit following White Flight. * [24:18] - The Supreme Court ruled that cross-district busing was not constitutionally necessary, creating color lines between suburbs and cities. Once that ruling gets handed down in 1974, schools’ integration stops and schools become increasingly segregated again. * [26:16] - Dr. Uffman describes the limitations of American federalism starting in the Reconstruction era and the effects of said limitations during the Civil Rights Movement of the 20th century. * [28:34] - The federal government in the 60s and 70s made it clear that no state or local entity had the right to segregate. The government used Little Rock as an example of the federal government’s will to use force, if necessary, to ensure the desegregation of schools. * [29:22] - Dr. Boyle describes the attempts of enraged Whites across the nation to claim that they have rights to segregated schools. * [30:20] - The fear of and anger at federal intervention still run deep in politics today. * [32:54] - Dr. Boyle explains what he thinks is the significant progress we are making in finally talking about the question of structural racism. * [34:45] - Dr. Boyle shares his immigrant father’s personal story building his career in a bank through hard work. He is very proud of this, but as a historian, he knows that there was not a single bank in 1953 when his father got his teller job that would hire Blacks. His anecdote illustrates how his father benefitted from structural racism.
Links and Resources: Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig's Messages Along the Way Podcast
More from Dr. Kevin Boyle:
- Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
Today, I welcome back Dr. Kevin Boyle, who reminded us in the previous episode the important parts of our nation’s struggle with racial justice, focusing on the first few decades of the 20th century. We will pick up where we left off and take a look at the start of the Civil Rights Movement.
Dr. Boyle is a professor at Northwestern University, specializing in the history of the 20th century United States. He has a particular focus on modern American social movements, such as the Civil Rights Movement. Dr. Boyle has a long list of publications and honors including fellowships from the National Endowment for the Humanities and the Andrew Carnegie Corporation. He is the highly acclaimed author of Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age, which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize and received the National Book Award for Nonfiction and many others.
Listen on to learn more about the federal government’s role in segregation from the beginning of the 20th century to the 1950s. We need to understand our past so we can understand our present. And so we can act responsibly with the racial inequity of our present time.
Questions for Clergy and Other Group Leaders 1. When did the second Civil Rights movement begin and end? 2. What are “civil rights” and for which of them were we struggling to provide all citizens during most of the twentieth century? 3. How did the Cold War impact the way our 20th-century struggle for civil rights played out? 4. The federal government, led by Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover, actively promoted the idea of a single-family dwelling as a way of creating segregated spaces outside of crowded urban areas. Hoover’s American Dream was for white people only; whites were urged to buy their own homes outside of cities, while blacks faced a gauntlet of obstacles to ensure they dared not imagine the American dream was theirs to dream. Describe our story of housing inequities from the Supreme Court’s decision in Buchanan vs Warley in 1917 to what persons of color returning from service in WWII would have encountered at the beginning of Truman’s administration? What was it like for persons of color, what de facto public policies did we sustain that distinguished what was possible for whites and persons of color in both the South and the North? 5. What is ‘white flight’? How did that shape our cities and neighborhoods?
Show Notes: * [3:51] - There is some debate among historians about when the Civil Rights Movement started and ended and if it ended at all. * [4:36] - Dr. Boyle states that most of us think of the Civil Rights Movement as starting in the 1950s and 1960s, but it had really begun earlier in the 20th century. * [6:50] - Woodrow Wilson tried to remake America’s place in the world by committing America to WWI. He stated that America’s job was to promote and protect democracy in the world. * [7:39] - Dr. Boyle also discusses America’s aspirations in the years following Woodrow Wilson’s presidency, specifically during WWII, and Franklin D. Roosevelt following in his footsteps. * [8:17] - There is a direct correlation between the Cold War and Woodrow Wilson’s goals laid out in 1917. This matters for the Civil Rights Movement because for Blacks, America’s aspiration for true democracy was not true to them. * [9:40] - As the United States Department of State is telling people of color emerging from colonization to side with America rather than the USSR, Blacks at home were saying that we can’t make claims about the benefits of democracy if they aren’t embracing those principles at home. * [12:01] - Dr. Boyle explains that in 1917 not only did the United States enter into WWI, but the Russian Revolution was taking place which resulted in the world’s first Communist state within Russia. * [13:00] - Leninists believed in the international revolution of the working class. They were committed to the idea of spreading the Communist revolution around the globe. This terrified Americans. * [13:51] - The Russian Revolution deeply disturbed Americans even though there was no direct threat to it reaching the United States. * [14:18] - Dr. Boyle discusses the surge of anti-Communism that comes up every several years throughout history. * [15:14] - Dr. Uffman describes the Truman Doctrine and why it is an important part of our racial history. * [17:09] - Convict leasing is something that has come out of these eras that continued on even until the 1990s and 2000s. The United States was continuing to exploit Black labor. * [18:14] - We have this idea that after the United States was no longer a slave society that anyone could sell their work for money. But what historians have pointed out is that there were many other ways that people were forced to work in coerced working systems. * [19:57] - Dr. Boyle explains that while sharecropping was not slavery, it was a form of coerced labor and uses it to demonstrate that although slavery had ended, there were many ways to continue exploiting labor, particularly the labor of Blacks. * [21:09] - Dr. Uffman brings up the fact that Herbert Hoover promoted the American dream of a single-family home. But what wasn’t taught in history books was that this was designed to segregate neighborhoods based on race. * [22:37] - In 1917, the Supreme Court ruled that it was unconstitutional for neighborhoods to be segregated by law. The law couldn’t tell people where they could live. * [23:17] - Once the Supreme Court ruled that, then Jim Crow couldn’t legally segregate neighborhoods anymore. Instead, the forces of the marketplace did. Whites used private agreements to segregate, and the courts did not stop that practice for decades. * [24:28] - During the Great Depression, the bottom fell out of the real estate market. When the Roosevelt administration came in they decided to underwrite the entire real estate industry by insuring mortgages. * [25:14] - As this happened, the federal government took all the private restrictions of the real estate marketplace and wrote them into federal regulations. Dr. Boyle describes redlining and how the government used it to divide cities and prohibit mortgages to redlined neighborhoods. * [26:57] - Dr. Boyle shares that he taught a course to freshmen on redlining and explains how poor white neighborhoods would get redlined if just one black person was living there. * [27:45] - Because of these federal regulations, those in redlined neighborhoods were blocked from access to the federal government’s protection in keeping their homes. It became very hard to get a mortgage. * [29:40] - The theory behind redlining was that they were assessing the market risk in different areas. * [30:10] - During the Great Depression and WWII, there was virtually no new construction of homes. But when soldiers came home from their WWII deployment, they received government mortgages but there were no houses to buy. * [31:07] - The Levitt construction company had the idea to mass-produce houses. They bought land and put up quick, inexpensive homes to buy with VA and FHA mortgages. * [31:39] - But, because of the assumption that market values would be unstable if their subdivisions were integrated racially, the Levitt company did not want Blacks purchasing their houses and living in those neighborhoods, so they wrote restrictions into the deeds of the homes, and the FHA and VA wrote similar covenants in their financing deals. * [32:22] - The vast majority of American suburbs that are built right after World War II to meet the massive housing demand are racially restricted. African Americans simply can’t get into them because they can’t get mortgages. The developers won’t sell to them because their white neighbors get really angry and threaten them. * [33:14] - Dr. Boyle describes the effect of racially segregated neighborhoods on economics and employment. * [34:14] - When talking about the landscape of racial inequality, these points made by Dr. Uffman and Dr. Boyle all illustrate the role that the federal government played. * [35:34] - Restrictive covenants on the deeds to houses were ruled unenforceable in 1948 but not illegal. * [36:20] - The federal government’s housing laws - the redlining practices - don’t say anything about race. They use the word risk. The effect is racial because then these restrictive covenants are legal ways that Whites restricting where Blacks could live. * [37:03] - Legally, private groups have every right to discriminate. It was only when the government is involved that discrimination became illegal. Redlining created segregated cities throughout the United States. * [38:43] - Dr. Boyle explains contract selling and how it worked. It eliminated the middle man of the bank. Instead of getting a loan, buyers pay the seller every month for the mortgage. * [40:07] - The tricky part about a contract sale is that the seller keeps the deed to the house until the final payment from the buyer. If a month is missed, the buyer could be kicked out of the house and lose all the money they’ve already paid. * [41:10] - Contract selling became one of the ways Blacks would buy a house since they could not get a loan from the bank. With predictable frequency, they would lose the home and their money in the process, and Whites speculating on their default would reap huge profits. * [42:01] - Sellers would count on the fact that they would miss a payment and then repeat the process multiple times on the same house with different buyers. This is another form of exploitation seen in this time. * [43:11] - Once the connection was made between property values and race, and now that houses were more readily available to buy, Whites began leaving neighborhoods in mass numbers if Blacks moved in. * [44:22] - This phenomenon is called White Flight. Nine of the ten largest cities in the 1950s lost population. * [45:22] - An entire neighborhood would go from being entirely White to entirely Black in a year because when one Black family moved in, Whites would leave en masse. This caused jobs to move to the suburbs as well. * [47:31] - When jobs moved to the suburbs, it also caused a problem with transportation for Blacks and poor Whites in the city center. Dr. Boyle shares a story from his hometown of Detroit. * [50:01] - When Whites moved to suburbs, the federal government subsidized factories and other employment opportunities for those areas. This wasn’t illegal segregation, but Dr. Boyle demonstrates how the effect was racial inequity. * [51:38] - In the next episode with Dr. Boyle, we will have the opportunity to talk about segregation in the American education system.
Links and Resources: Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig's Messages Along the Way Podcast
More from Dr. Kevin Boyle
- Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
The last episode helped us understand the beginnings of Jim Crow in the south. Today we pick up where we left off, tracing pivotal moments that led similar racial tensions in the north. Welcoming back Dr. Kevin Boyle for this episode of Race on the Rocks, we dive deeper into the genesis of the Jim Crow era. How did the racial tensions of the south follow Blacks to the north and how did segregation become a nationwide way of life?
Dr. Boyle is a professor at Northwestern University, specializing in the history of the 20th century United States. He has a particular focus on modern American social movements, such as the Civil Rights Movement. Dr. Boyle has a long list of publications and honors including fellowships from the National Endowment for the Humanities and the Andrew Carnegie Corporation. He is the highly acclaimed author of Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age, which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize and received the National Book Award for Nonfiction and many others.
Our conversation today is immensely impactful as Dr. Boyle illustrates how northern cities became segregated and how the basis of hatred led to mob violence and the rebirth of the Ku Klux Klan.
Questions for Clergy and Other Group Leaders 1. What were the most pernicious ways of systemizing hierarchy in the North? 2. Describe the rebirth of the KKK. How did the second KKK use violence and intimidation to shape our laws and politics? 3. What grounds of hope in spite in the realities of an entrenched Jim Crow system in the North?
Show Notes: * [2:07] - When we paused the conversation, Dr. Boyle had just discussed the racial hierarchies in the South and his book Arc of Justice. * [2:59] - Dr. Boyle illustrates how as Blacks moved away from the south, parts of the Jim Crow system followed them. The legal segregation of schools, for example, followed them to other states they moved to. * [3:51] - Some states did not legally require schools to be segregated from the beginning, including Illinois and Michigan. But other forms of segregation followed Blacks there, such as employment segregation. * [5:03] - Dr. Boyle shares how jobs were segregated in all fields of employment, including in factories, and this was consistent in states like Illinois and Michigan that were prohibiting segregation in other areas. * [5:29] - The fundamental and foundational segregation of the north is the segregation of neighborhoods. As a result, schools, hospitals, and police departments become segregated. * [7:23] - Dr. Uffman discusses the economic pressure that came from segregation as well. Dr. Boyle uses Detroit as an example of employment competition and the stresses put on living spaces and communities. * [8:52] - Although communities were not legally segregated, Dr. Boyle explains how neighborhood segregation was enforced. * [10:12] - African American migration starts to come north and what Whites begin to say is, ‘I don’t want an African American living next door to me.’ * [10:56] - Racism alone can’t segregate a city due to the simple fact that not all Whites were racist. Those who were could not impose their racism on another White to enforce segregated neighborhoods, so they sought help. * [11:31] - Real estate markets began to use this rising tide of racism to form segregated neighborhoods and Dr. Boyle shares how this worked in Detroit beginning in 1923. * [12:40] - This led other businesses to formally segregate as banks would not give mortgages to Blacks for homes in white neighborhoods and restrictive covenants were specifically written in the deeds of properties that they would never be sold to Blacks. * [13:21] - The distinction is that this wasn’t the state legally segregating neighborhoods. These were private agreements. * [14:28] - Once that system was in place it created immense pressure on white homeowners to make sure those restrictions were never broken. The fear was that, If Blacks moved into their neighborhood, property values would decline. Financial system policies helped make this a self-fulfilling prophecy. * [15:31] - For Whites who were not racist, they now had an immense economic incentive to keep that structure in place. * [16:17] - Dr. Boyle uses Dr. Sweet, who Dr. Boyle’s book Arc of Justice focuses on, as an example of this system. He managed to move into a home in a white neighborhood and a mob tried to drive him out. * [18:37] - In Dr. Sweet’s case, which is one reason it is unusual, he knew going in there would be trouble. He and his family armed themselves in their new home because they feared the mob. In defense, they opened fire and killed a member of the mob. * [19:20] - Dr. Sweet’s case is unusual, and Dr. Boyle explains that what normally would happen is that Blacks were in fact driven out of these neighborhoods through mob violence. * [20:56] - Dr. Boyle illustrates how segregated suburbs surrounding large cities ensured the segregation of schools through the restrictive covenants of the neighborhood development. * [22:12] - For most of Detroit’s existence, 8 Mile Road was a dividing line between Blacks and Whites. * [23:09] - There were a number of Ku Klux Klans across this time period, and Dr. Boyle describes the second. It launched in the early part of the 20th century. * [23:50] - After the film Birth of a Nation, many businessmen decided to form the Klan again. They form it as a money-making venture to sell membership. * [24:50] - What the second Klan did differently was that they made hatred the basis of their organization. They supported driving out those who were different: Blacks, Jews, and Catholics specifically. * [25:55] - The appeal of the Klan’s pitch for “All-Americanism,” described as male dominated Anglo-Saxon Protestantism, spread very quickly in the south. * [26:38] - The KKK grew to have many thousands of members in each large city and they had huge political power. At their height, they controlled the state government of Indiana, for example, and Dr. Boyle lists several of the places they were in power. * [27:42] - Dr. Boyle describes the difference between the mob violence of Dr. Sweet’s story and Klan violence. The members of the mob in Dr. Sweet’s case were not Klansmen. * [28:39] - Dr. Uffman compares the mindset of Whites participating and accepting mob violence to those who were not members of the Communist party but who tolerated Communist rhetoric in later years. * [29:20] - The rhetoric of the Klan was the vision of being “All-American.” This vision was threatened by those who were different, and the Klan pitched that Blacks and immigrants would destroy American values because they were not true Americans. * [30:26] - The Ku Klux Klan saw other groups of people as incapable in some way or another of being true Americans because there is something that prevented them from understanding and embracing the values that defined this country as the Klan understood them. * [31:37] - At this time there were competing visions of America and both of them claimed to be patriotic. America was built on a fundamental promise. * [32:53] - One version of patriotism is to embrace the fundamental promise that all were created equal. * [33:12] - The competing version of patriotism is the Klan vision of the 1920’s. They believed that we were not all created equal and those who are superior need to hold on to power even if it means embracing violence. * [34:27] - Dr. Uffman discusses the name of Dr. Boyle’s book and breaks apart the word “Arc” to demonstrate the progress being made and stories of hope. * [35:15] - In his experience, Dr. Boyle explains that nothing will get you in bigger trouble than to suggest to older African Americans that nothing has been accomplished in the racial front in the United States. Not to say things are perfect, but things certainly have changed. * [36:00] - Something that struck Dr. Boyle as he was writing his book was just how blatant and widespread racism was during the early 20th century. * [36:58] - Dr. Boyle describes the changes that have been made because of the courage of ordinary African Americans who risked it all to see change. * [37:58] - Using a quote from Martin Luther King, Jr., Dr. Boyle illustrates how Blacks have always demanded what was put on paper as a promise to all Americans.
Links and Resources: Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig's Messages Along the Way Podcast
More from Dr. Kevin Boyle
- Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
When Reconstruction collapsed, Jim Crow was born. Virulent racism peaked in the American South in the early 1900s and about twenty years later in the north. In today’s episode, we will remember why and how Jim Crow developed as a formal system of segregation and repression. Our guest is Dr. Kevin Boyle.
Dr. Boyle is a professor at Northwestern University, specializing in the history of the 20th century United States. He has a particular focus on modern American social movements, such as the Civil Rights Movement. Dr. Boyle has a long list of publications and honors including fellowships from the National Endowment for the Humanities and the Andrew Carnegie Corporation. He is the highly acclaimed author of Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age, which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize and received the National Book Award for Nonfiction and many others.
The conversation we have in this episode of the Race on the Rocks Podcast was eye-opening for me as we discuss the racial hierarchy, not only in the American south, but the northern states as well. How did it come to this? Thanks to our guest, we are reminded and remember well the stories that shaped our racial landscape and the tensions we struggle with today.
Questions for Clergy and Other Group Leaders 1. When did the South and North reach apogees in terms of “virulent racism”? 2. What were the intellectual, political, economic, and other factors that combined to create the environment where such virulent racism could flourish? 3. Why did we create Jim Crow laws, why were we able to sustain them so long, and how did they systemize our ideas of racial hierarchy with Anglo-Saxons at the top? 4. Can you remind us of some of our most pernicious ways of systemizing hierarchy in the North? 5. Describe the rise of the KKK, and especially the violence and intimidation it used to shape our laws and politics?
Show Notes: * [2:41] - Dr. Uffman highly recommends Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age and says that he could not put it down. By reading it, he formed questions for Dr. Boyle for today’s interview. * [3:36] - The peak of racism in the north is tied directly to the peak of racism in the south. * [4:01] - In the twenty year period after the end of slavery, the formal system of segregation (Jim Crow) was given its final form. This political process was driven by the desire of southern Whites to reassert their control over southern politics. * [5:02] - Jim Crow had two pieces. One piece was to take away the ability of Blacks to vote. * [5:24] - A problem with this was that the 15th Amendment gave black men the right to vote and southern states had to find a way around that with restrictions that didn’t specifically say anything about race. * [6:15] - In addition to restrictions, like a poll tax, Dr. Boyle also describes the hyperextension of segregation. While schools were already segregated, now petty things like drinking fountains and bus seating were included. * [7:23] - What Jim Crow was meant to do was to make sure that any time Blacks did one of these ordinary things, they would be reminded of their legal inferiority. Any time Whites did these things, they would be reminded of their superiority. * [8:03] - White southern democrats fed the greatest racial fear of white Americans and that is sexualized fear. This triggered the frenzy of lynching in the American South. * [8:41] - In the twenty years between 1890 and 1910, lynching in the American South was at its worst and Blacks were lynched, on average, once every two days. * [9:18] - As this was happening more often, Blacks began migrating to the north. This brought the problem of White Supremacy to the forefront in the north, too. The northern peak of racism ran from about 1910 to 1930. * [10:08] - Dr. Uffman shares that he was always taught that racism was a southern problem and expresses his unawareness of the peak of racism in the north. * [10:49] - Dr. Uffman makes a comparison between repeated practices and the repetition of Blacks being reminded of their place in society. * [12:40] - Dr. Boyle goes back to Reconstruction to explain why there was a need of political disenfranchisement of the African American vote. At its heart, Reconstruction was to reconfigure southern society. * [13:28] - The 14th and 15th Amendments were written to give Blacks equal rights. This was revolutionary as many other countries also abolished slavery but did not give former slaves equal rights as quickly as the United States. * [14:08] - Blacks were now holding office and voting which completely disrupted the old political patterns. The alliances Blacks were making in the south were with poorer Whites and that was detrimental to the southern Democratic party which was dedicated to White Supremacy. * [15:21] - Dr. Boyle discusses the movement of Populism in the 1880s that was a huge movement in the south. Alliances were springing up among black and white farmers and this spurred the Democrats to do something drastic by constructing the Jim Crow system. * [17:03] - Another implication of the Jim Crow system is that if you take away people’s access to the political system, they can’t influence the vote. Dr. Boyle shares the story of Dr. Sweet, who is also written about in his book, Arc of Justice. * [18:31] - Jim Crow was explicitly designed to block opportunities, humiliate, disempower, and to make sure that Blacks could not push their way past it. * [20:41] - In regards to the hierarchy of Jim Crow in the north, Dr. Boyle explains that there are two pieces to how it manifested. One being the side of white immigrants and the other Blacks moving north. * [21:56] - Similar to the idea of the Age of Enlightenment, Dr. Boyle explains that there was a push for categorizing people into distinct categories. * [23:03] - There is a symbolism attached to the words “black” and “white” to describe race since skin colors are not literally black and white. Dr. Boyle explains the symbolic meanings. * [24:10] - Dr. Boyle shares a personal story of a cousin from Ireland visiting him in Detroit and her perception of the first black mayor on TV. * [26:57] - Throughout history there have been many famous and intellectual people in support of White Supremacy. Dr. Uffman and Dr. Boyle list some, including Woodrow Wilson and Teddy Roosevelt. * [28:27] - Continuing the conversation in the next episode, Dr. Boyle will discuss how the racial topographies of northern cities developed the way they did and impacted our racial tensions today.
Links and Resources: Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman
- The Way of Love
- Craig's Messages Along the Way Podcast
More from Dr. Kevin Boyle
- Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
We learned a lot from Dr. Kate Masur about the soaring hopes of Reconstruction after the Civil War and, in particular, constitutional amendments aimed at protecting the basic freedoms of those formerly enslaved. But today, we remember how we fell from the height of these hopes to the darkness of our Jim Crow era.
Dr. Masur is the perfect conversation partner on this topic, and I welcome her back to the Race on the Rocks Podcast today. Dr. Masur is a history professor at Northwestern University. Most of her research investigates how Americans, north and south, grappled with the end of slavery and associated questions of racial equality. Her most recent book is Until Justice Be Done: America’s First Civil Rights Movement, from the Revolution to Reconstruction, which can be pre-ordered now.
Questions for Clergy and Other Group Leaders 1. How did the practices of peonage and sharecropping and black codes functioned to limit black economic mobility and ensured cheap labor for the plantation economy after the war? 2. What was the original Ku Klux Klan and what did it do? 3. Why didn’t Reconstruction work out? Who tried to subvert it, and why/how were they successful? 4. How did the Supreme Court play a role in enabling the rise of Jim Crow laws? 5. How did the practice of using convict labor in the post-Civil War south serve as a means of repression and intimidation?
Show Notes: * [3:12] - We begin this episode with the groups that sprung up trying to prevent African Americans from executing their newfound rights. Dr. Masur describes the Ku Klux Klan as a vigilante movement opposing the changes happening as a result of the end of slavery. * [4:33] - Even before black men were given the right to vote, the Ku Klux Klan was formed around 1866. * [4:51] - The Ku Klux Klan primarily victimized African Americans but also white Republicans, elected officials, and those in interracial relationships. * [5:30] - They committed various acts of violence and Dr. Masur lists several of the ways they tried to, in their view, put people in their place. * [6:04] - The image that we have of the Ku Klux Klan in the white robes and pointy hats mostly comes from the Klan of the 1920s and wasn’t popularized until the film A Birth of a Nation in 1915. The Klan of Reconstruction did not have this costume, but still wore disguises. * [6:42] - The actions of the Ku Klux Klan were illegal and, in 1870 and 1871, the federal government attempted to crack down on them and many were arrested. * [7:30] - The Grant Administration actually cooled down on this, however, because they were worried about their chance of re-election. This resulted in a resurgence of white supremacy in the south. * [8:01] - The Ku Klux Klan does not fully encompass this because by 1873 and 1874, other organizations were established and were openly terrorizing people without disguise. * [9:01] - The election of 1876 took place after the federal refusal to step in and intervene. Much of the end of Reconstruction had already unfolded before that contested election in 1877. * [9:42] - Dr. Uffman points out that people had “civil rights fatigue” and compares it to the same fatigue and economic recession in the 1970s. * [10:43] - Dr. Masur also notes the backlash in the 1970s regarding civil rights. * [11:23] - Shifting back to the late 1800s, Dr. Masur explains that white southerners made the cost of enforcement so high and they were able to get away with more. * [12:57] - There was a dramatically contested election in 1876 that had everything to do with the issues of Reconstruction. Because of the violence, lawlessness, and terrorism in some southern states, the election was perceived as being very close. * [13:40] - An election commission was created to settle the election and Hayes, the Republican candidate, was awarded the presidency after months of instability and threats of civil war and violence. * [15:11] - This landmark election is arguably the end of Reconstruction. Moving forward into the 1880s, Dr. Masur points out the play in the system of coalitions being built between black and white southerners. * [16:15] - The Supreme Court was very unhelpful to foreseeing the new constitutional amendments. The court interpreted the amendments very narrowly. * [17:12] - Dr. Masur and Dr. Uffman discuss the Enforcement Act, the Cruikshank Decision, and the growing problem of private violence. The Supreme Court put the responsibility on state governments and in some southern states, specifically Louisiana, the state government supported the Ku Klux Klan. * [18:34] - By the end of the 19th century, states were writing new constitutions with poll taxes and clauses that were designed to disenfranchise primarily African Americans, but they did not use racial language. * [21:38] - Convict leasing rose as a way to maintain a business’s supply of labor. Dr. Uffman points out that law enforcement officers were even paid more to arrest more individuals and typically they were people of color. * [22:59] - Dr. Masur explains that authorities used laws to criminalize the behavior of poor people across the board but especially targeted African Americans. It was very easy to get arrested. * [23:58] - There was an over-incarceration of African Americans who were then leased out to private corporations and private businessmen. The convicts would provide labor and the businessmen would pay the prison per laborer which was less than hiring a worker. * [24:38] - Dr. Masur describes the similarities between the system of convict leasing and slavery and the working conditions African Americans were subjected to. * [26:09] - As a white male from the south, Dr. Uffman shares his experience of getting his driver’s license. Through this discussion with Dr. Masur, Dr. Uffman better understands the difference between his experiences and those of people of color. * [27:39] - Dr. Masur explains that a white person in trouble with the law would be able to get a lawyer and work themselves out of trouble. But for a black person, they had no reason to believe that justice would be served. * [28:43] - When things like police killings come to light now or injustices and mass incarcerations, for African Americans, it is a story they have known well and for many white folks it is eye-opening that that’s other people’s experiences. * [30:07] - One of the grounds of hope during Reconstruction, according to Dr. Masur and others, was the fuse that started people thinking along the lines of making the world a better place. * [31:42] - A positive change from the Reconstruction era is the surge of people towards education and the education of African Americans. * [33:03] - In our next episode, we will begin our conversation on the early 20th century with our guest, Dr. Kevin Boyle.
Links and Resources: Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman
- The Way of Love
- Craig's Messages Along the Way Podcast
More from Dr. Kate Masur
- About Kate Masur - Northwestern University
- Kate Masur on Twitter
- Until Justice Be Done: America’s First Civil Rights Movement From Revolution to Reconstruction by Kate Masur
- More books authored by Kate Masur
- “Yes, Wednesday’s attempted insurrection is who we are” Washington Post article by Kate Masur and Gregory Downs
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
In our last episode, Dr. Kate Masur reminded us of important parts of the story of the American Civil War that continues to shape our racial topography today. In today’s episode, we’ll pick up where we left off and remember how we went from the jubilation that arose when Lincoln liberated those who were enslaved to the darkness of our Jim Crow Era.
Again, our guest today is Dr. Kate Masur. Kate is a history professor at Northwestern University. Most of her research investigates how Americans, north and south, grappled with the end of slavery and associated questions of racial equality. Her most recent book is Until Justice Be Done: America’s First Civil Rights Movement, from the Revolution to Reconstruction, which will be published in March of 2021.
Questions for Clergy and Other Group Leaders 1. What was Reconstruction? What did the US government — then dominated by Republicans — try to do during Reconstruction? 2. What were the Reconstruction Amendments (13th, 14th, 15th) and why were they important? 3. What did southern African Americans do during Reconstruction? 4. How did the practices of peonage and sharecropping and black codes functioned to limit black economic mobility and ensured cheap labor for the plantation economy after the war? 5. What was the original Ku Klux Klan and what did it do? 6. Why didn’t Reconstruction work out? Who tried to subvert it, and why/how were they successful? 7. How did the Supreme Court play a role in enabling the rise of Jim Crow laws? 8. How did the practice of using convict labor in the post-Civil War south serve as a means of repression and intimidation?
Show Notes: * [2:27] - Dr. Uffman shares the story that he was taught through history books in high school regarding Reconstruction. * [3:48] - Dr. Masur confirms that this time period has been taught as a time of the greatest shame in American history but clarifies that the stories used to teach that information were a retrospective narrative erected to support Jim Crow. * [4:19] - These stories supported the belief that the white south needed to take back control of their internal affairs and Dr. Masur explains that whites perpetuated the myth that African Americans needed time to adjust before participating fully in leadership of communities. * [5:21] - After winning the Civil War, the US government with Republicans in control had to make very important decisions. Kate describes the difficulty of reconciliation between the Union and the states that previously declared their secession. * [6:18] - One of the first things the government did was to add amendments to the US Constitution to formally and officially end slavery. Dr. Masur explains the importance of these amendments in protecting individual rights. * [8:09] - The federal government made sure that African American men were given the right to vote and this was enforced with military presence in the south. Kate explains that this is where the myth of “white south humiliation” came from. * [9:11] - The way that historians see Reconstruction now is this is actually the first time, and the only time until the Civil Rights era, that the US really tried to establish itself as a multi-racial democracy. * [10:07] - Dr. Masur describes the loophole, emphasized in the movie, 13th, in the thirteenth amendment that states that if you are convicted of a crime you can then be enslaved and not allowed to vote. * [11:49] - This was not seen as a way to force people back into slavery, but Dr. Masur points out that they did not predict mass incarceration that arose in the United States. * [13:52] - William T. Sherman marched through Georgia and met with 20 African American leaders in Savannah to discuss what the formerly enslaved people in the area needed to transition after their liberation. The leaders said that they wanted their own land and the capacity to educate their children, and this famous conversation is where we first hear the phrase, “40 acres and a mule.” * [15:07] - There is a debate during Reconstruction about whether the government would go so far as to confiscate the land of slave owners and distribute it among former slaves. But this was actually a radical position that never came close to passing. * [16:18] - Reconstruction was a period of tremendous change. Former slaves now had a kind of freedom that they had been wanting for generations and now had to figure out where to live and how to sustain a livelihood. * [17:13] - During this time, many black people also took the opportunity to search for lost loved ones. They would put advertisements in newspapers looking for family members that had been sold. * [17:44] - As Republicans took control, they actually created the south’s first public education system. African Americans could also now form their own churches. * [18:37] - By 1867, African Americans were also joining the Republican party, casting votes, and considering running for office. Kate explains that there were about 2,000 African American men who held office in the south during Reconstruction. * [20:37] - Dr. Uffman makes a connection between the desires of African Americans to have access to education during this time and similar issues that we see in the 20th century. * [21:29] - Dr. Masur explains how it is possible to have separation and integration in American institutions and how this was very difficult for white people to understand. This is how many African Americans saw the world. They didn’t necessarily always want their children to be educated in institutions led by white people, but they wanted the same access to opportunity. * [22:57] - A common misunderstanding around this time period is that white southerners didn’t want African Americans around anymore because they could no longer exploit them. But in reality, plantation owners needed their labor and so created new ways to prevent them from leaving the plantation economy.. * [24:15] - Kate shares an example of how white landowners in Mississippi tried to make it illegal for African Americans to own land in an attempt to keep them on the plantations. This was overturned, but there were many instances where white southerners did anything they could to keep their labor force where they were. * [26:07] - Dr. Uffman compares the examples that Dr. Masur gives to an event in the Old Testament. * [27:22] - There were vagrancy and anti-enticement laws set up during this time as well that essentially caused arrests for no real reason. Dr. Masur describes some of these and how they even affected employment. * [28:20] - There were tax laws that put very heavy taxes on small land owners and they couldn’t pay. Dr. Masur also describes other financial mechanisms for making sure Blacks did not do well economically and so establish independence from the plantation economy. * [29:39] - Dr. Masur defines peonage as a more extreme version of what she has been discussing where landowners keep people so far in debt that they are immobilized. * [30:41] - Times were very hard for both black and white southerners who were trying to make it in the south because of cotton prices declining. Large companies were buying out smaller farmers who were struggling. * [32:46] - Dr. Uffman describes the never ending cycle of debt for many African Americans as a way to lock them into the land of the white plantation owner. * [34:18] - When law enforcement is built to support white landowners, where would African Americans go if they found themselves in this cycle of debt and indentured servitude? The innovations of the thirteenth, fourteenth, and fifteenth amendment is important here but they were not being enforced. * [35:48] - “You see this long line from Reconstruction establishing the possibility for the first time that there could be a level of federal support for individual and civil rights and the ups and downs, mostly downs until the 1950s, of what happens after that.” - Dr. Kate Masur
Links and Resources: Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig's Messages Along the Way Podcast
More from Dr. Kate Masur
- About Kate Masur - Northwestern University
- Kate Masur on Twitter
- Until Justice Be Done: America’s First Civil Rights Movement From Revolution to Reconstruction by Kate Masur
- More books authored by Kate Masur
- “Yes, Wednesday’s attempted insurrection is who we are” Washington Post article by Kate Masur and Gregory Downs
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
In today’s episode, we welcome back Dr. Kate Masur. Dr. Masur is a professor at Northwestern University who specializes in the history of the United States in the 19th century with a primary focus on how Americans grapple with questions on race and equality after the end of slavery in both the north and the south. Her upcoming book Until Justice Be Done: America’s First Civil Rights Movement, from the Revolution to Reconstruction will be published in March of this year.
In our previous episode, Kate walked us through the antebellum period and we ended with a discussion on Abraham Lincoln and how he entered his presidency as a moderate conservative. Today we take it another step further. We take an in-depth look at Lincoln’s views on slavery and his role as commander-in-chief and we end with the discussion of federal power versus states’ rights. Dr. Masur is the perfect guest for this conversation as she helps us remember the most important stories that shaped the racial landscape and tensions with which we wrestle today.
Questions for Clergy and Other Group Leaders 1. In our last episode, our conversation ended on the precipice of Civil War. Abraham Lincoln had just been elected. War erupts. How did Lincoln move from his starting point to a policy of abolishing slavery? 2. What did enslaved people do during the war? 3. What were the Republican Party’s views during the war on abolition and racial equality? 4. Describe military service of Black men in the US Army and Navy during the Civil War. How was that significant after the war? 5. What were the Confederates themselves fighting for? Was it a war over states' rights or slavery?
Show Notes: * [1:53] - Dr. Masur hopes that her book Until Justice Be Done: America’s First Civil Rights Movement, from the Revolution to Reconstruction sheds light on a forgotten period of civil rights organizing and pushing for equality. * [2:37] - In the previous episode, Kate walked us through the Antebellum period and ended with a discussion on Abraham Lincoln characterized as a moderate conservative. * [3:45] - Lincoln is on record as saying that he was completely opposed to slavery, but Kate points out that he also did not believe that there was anything morally superior in the position of white northerners over white southerners. * [4:42] - As a strict Constitutionalist, Abraham Lincoln and the Republican party did not believe the federal government had the power to abolish slavery. * [5:18] - If it is your outlook that you both hate slavery but you don’t see a legal way to abolish it, what do you do? That is how Lincoln entered the presidency. He stated from the start that his intention was to stop the spread of slavery rather than completely abolish it. * [6:17] - Lincoln put his foot down regarding the discussion of expanding slavery into other states and territories. * [6:42] - Many Americans thought that the Civil War would be a very quick war. People were predicting that one of two things would happen: the northerners would put down their arms and let the southern states secede or a few quick battles would lead the southern states to give up to avoid more lives lost. * [7:54] - The war was not over quickly and more and more people were losing their lives. Lincoln comes to conclusion at this point that it is militarily smart to use the power of the president as the commander-in-chief of the US military to declare that slavery is abolished in areas that are in insurrection against the United States. * [8:36] - The military order Lincoln issued created a force of liberation out of the US Army and Navy in the south. The Emancipation Proclamation also allowed black men to be enlisted as soldiers which really changed the face of the war. * [9:08] - Some people have argued that Lincoln was dragged kicking and screaming to the point of issuing the Emancipation Proclamation. But Dr. Masur states that it took particular developments in the war for him to use the power of the presidency in the way that he did. * [11:06] - Kate explains that many enslaved people were following national politics of the time and there is evidence that during the Mexican-American War that many slaves had hoped that soldiers would wind up in their area to liberate slaves. * [12:33] - Long before the Emancipation Proclamation and the height of the Civil War, many of the enslaved would take refuge over Union lines. * [14:03] - Dr. Masur explains that the actions of the enslaved actually caused policy dilemmas in the first two years of the war. It wasn’t the job of the government to liberate slaves but would they negotiate with slave owners to return slaves who were taking refuge in northern states? * [14:57] - In addition to Lincoln and the Emancipation Proclamation, there were also military forces in slave-holding territories, enslaved people taking action to free themselves, and Congress beginning to erode slavery. * [16:28] - Starting in 1863, black men were able to enlist in the Union Army. Kate explains that they were initially not paid the same and could only be led by white officers, but these rules started to erode over time as well. * [18:01] - Kate lists many of the changes for the enslaved men who enlisted in the Union Army including the fact that after the war they qualified for veteran pensions, many had become literate, and they could emerge as community leaders. * [18:59] - Even in the north, the United States Colored Troops were still not recognized for their contribution and Kate states that this is a chapter of our history that is not talked about enough. * [19:48] - Many Republicans, such as Charles Sumner and Thaddeus Stevens had grown annoyed with Lincoln and were pushing him to do more. * [20:35] - Dr. Masur writes about this in her upcoming book and she explains here that there was a lot of debate in different realms regarding the future of racial equality. She provides examples of how these debates impacted major decisions. * [22:18] - Republicans wanted to create a federal policy to outlaw discrimination in the states. They did not want to leave it up to the states to decide what black men could or couldn’t do. * [23:27] - There is no doubt that what the Confederacy was fighting for was the preservation of slavery and we only need to go and look at what the Confederates themselves said to see that. Kate gives examples to prove their motivation. * [24:54] - To the extent that states’ rights were part of their fight, Confederates were only concerned with their rights to own slaves and expand slavery north. * [26:11] - Not all white southerners were slave owners and the Confederates had some convincing to do in their home states as well. * [27:04] - The worry for Confederates was always that increased federal power would end up being a threat to slavery. Even northerners believed in state sovereignty, but white slaveholders used the argument of state rights to protect slavery. * [28:15] - In his memoirs, Jefferson Davis shifts the focus of the southern states involvement in the Civil War away from preserving the constructs of slavery to the fight for states’ rights. Kate then says this was a distraction from their true motivation and this idea was then handed down to later generations of Americans. * [29:03] - This is a good point to pause and in our next episode, we will welcome back Dr. Kate Masur to continue our conversation. We will shift to critical developments in the last third of the 19th century that shaped our racial topography.
Links and Resources: Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig's Messages Along the Way Podcast
More from Dr. Kate Masur
- About Kate Masur - Northwestern University
- Kate Masur on Twitter
- Until Justice Be Done: America’s First Civil Rights Movement From Revolution to Reconstruction by Kate Masur
- More books authored by Kate Masur
- “Yes, Wednesday’s attempted insurrection is who we are” Washington Post article by Kate Masur and Gregory Downs
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
After discussing the slave labor of the American south in the previous episode, Dr. Kate Masur and I continue our conversation about how our racial topography was shaped during the antebellum period. This time, however, we will pivot to take a look at the northern states and the many different views on slavery of that time. Also in our discussion today, we take a look at the rise of the Republican party and their initial platform that may come as a surprise to some listeners.
Again, our guest today is Dr. Kate Masur. Kate is a history professor at Northwestern University. Most of her research investigates how Americans, north and south, grappled with the end of slavery and associated questions of racial equality. Her most recent book is Until Justice Be Done: America’s First Civil Rights Movement, from the Revolution to Reconstruction, which will be published in March of 2021.
By picking up where we left off in the previous episode, we begin in the northern states. How did slavery impact their industrialization? How did radical abolitionism gain traction and how did the new Republican party develop to ultimately abolish slavery on grounds of morality and hope?
Questions for Clergy and Other Group Leaders 1. In episode 2, Dr. Masur spoke about Methodist and Presbyterian ministers who moved from the Southwest Territory to the Northwest Territory because slavery was abolished in the latter. What is abolitionism, where, when, and how did it arise? 2. Where did the Republican Party come from and what were its most important principles? 3. What did the Democratic Party stand for at the time? How did it evolve during the antebellum period? 4. What were Lincoln’s views on slavery and racial equality?
Show Notes: * [2:25] - We’ve talked a lot about the south but in today’s episode, Dr. Uffman and Dr. Kate Masur start the discussion about the north. * [3:08] - In the north, Kate explains that there was increasing industrialization that relied on the production of cotton developed in the south. They were also creating products to sell to slave owners. * [4:47] - Dr. Masur illustrates the implication of northerners in their interconnection with the slavery based southern economy. * [6:14] - Many northerners felt that because they weren’t doing the enslaving that their “hands weren’t dirty,” even though their economy was benefitting from the slave labor in the south. * [7:20] - These people were not living in a moral vacuum. It took work to justify this system. * [8:17] - Kate explains how the language used in the Declaration of Independence did not explicitly say “all white men are created equal,” which gave abolitionists a helpful base for their argument that slavery is wrong. * [9:13] - Kate shares an example of a radical abolitionism through the story of David Walker, a free black man involved in activist black networks and working to open the first black newspaper. * [10:03] - Instances like that of David Walker’s case. helped spur abolitionists on the track of using Christianity as a way to make their point that all people, no matter the race, are all human. * [11:18] - In addition to working towards abolishing slavery, abolitionists were also rebelling against the idea of colonization. Many white people were of the opinion that black people should be sent to create a black colony in Africa and that we couldn’t live in a multi-racial country. * [12:40] - William Lloyd Garrison published the newspaper The Liberator that got wide circulation. He and other abolitionists created networks of people that developed into a strong community. * [13:40] - Dr. Masur shares a key point from her upcoming book: the states in the southern mid-west, such as Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois, were right across the river from slavery. The front lines of the struggle against slavery were the places around the Ohio river. * [15:19] - The theories about slavery that are associated with the Republican Party really began in these midwestern states along the Ohio river. * [16:08] - Speaking in his role as a public theologian, Craig points out why Pennsylvania as a Quaker state did not embrace slavery. * [17:51] - From a non-theologian point of view, Kate shares the historical aspect of the same Quaker communities moving away from slavery. * [20:03] - Kate explains the two-party system prior to the rise of the Republican party. Eventually as a result of many events, the Whig party fell apart in the 1850s, and the Democrats split into two regional parties. * [21:46] - By the time of the Kansas and Nebraska Act, Kate explains that most northern Democrats had just “had it.” * [22:17] - The drive for slave labor and the cotton industry put so much pressure on US politics and created even more of a divide. * [23:29] - A lot of the issues we see today were structural problems back then as well. * [24:12] - Many people saw the rising tension and inevitable conflict over slavery as more land was acquired in the United States. * [25:00] - At this point, the Republicans were a coalition of former Whigs who were already opposed to slavery and radical abolitionists. Although diverse, they all agreed that slavery could not continue. * [26:03] - The initial platform and campaign for the Republican party was to not halt slavery in states where it was already happening, but to not allow it to grow and expand. * [27:01] - The Republican party valued a strict interpretation of the Constitution and did not feel that it was within their Constitutional power to abolish slavery in the Southern states. * [28:09] - Kate clears up a common misconception of the Republican party of the 1800s versus the Republican party of today. * [29:42] - Abraham Lincoln was in the middle, ideologically, of the Republican party of the time. Dr. Masur explains and gives several examples. * [31:35] - Although it was difficult for Lincoln to imagine a future where all races could live in peace and harmony, he did believe in civil rights for African Americans. * [33:09] - Dr. Uffman mentions and shares a relatable scenario in current times to the arc of discernment that Lincoln had throughout his life and political career. * [35:15] - At this time, it was difficult for northern Democrats to have their own identity and the Democratic Party broke apart to run two candidates for the presidency. * [37:34] - The people who stood up to slavery and the slave owners of the United States took a huge risk. * [39:01] - For Lincoln and many others, it was better to take the risk in participating and forming this new party and draw their supporters from only one portion of the country because it was morally wrong to continue to support slavery. * [40:23] - In the next episode, we will pick up where we left off today, again with guest Dr. Kate Masur.
Links and Resources: Connect with Dr. Craig Uffman:
- The Way of Love
- Craig's Messages Along the Way Podcast
More from Dr. Kate Masur
- About Kate Masur - Northwestern University
- Kate Masur on Twitter
- Until Justice Be Done: America’s First Civil Rights Movement From Revolution to Reconstruction by Kate Masur
- More books authored by Kate Masur
- “Yes, Wednesday’s attempted insurrection is who we are” Washington Post article by Kate Masur and Gregory Downs
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
In today’s episode, I am delighted to have Dr. Kate Masur back with us for an honest and insightful discussion on the impact of slave labor. This impact was seen within the economy of the United States, but what impact did it have on those enslaved and those who were doing the enslaving? There is so much to unpack here and, thanks to our guest, we can have a better understanding of why cotton became the driver of American economic development and how slavery became the violent method of increasing productivity and profits.
Again, our guest today is Dr. Kate Masur. Kate is a history professor at Northwestern University. Most of her research investigates how Americans, north and south, grappled with the end of slavery and associated questions of racial equality. Her most recent book is Until Justice Be Done: America’s First Civil Rights Movement, from the Revolution to Reconstruction, which will be published in March of 2021.
We begin today with the relationship between the US’s capacity to grow cotton through slave labor and the rise of England’s mass production of textiles. But, through our discussion, we end with the morality of violence, abuse, and torture. It is a hard topic to think about, but it is part of our true story.
Show Notes: * [2:07] - In the previous episode, we ended with the image of a slave coffle. Craig describes where we left off with about 100 slaves being transported to new states in the Southwest territory. * [2:56] - Kate explains the relationship between the US’s capacity to grow cotton through slave labor and the rise of England’s mass production of fabric and textiles. * [4:25] - Craig shares how this relationship between the US and Great Britain was not part of his early education. Although they were portrayed as enemies, in fact they were both competing and collaborating with cotton being at the center of production. * [5:27] - The British were investing in the American economy in many different ways. Kate gives examples and describes the phenomenon of seemingly wealthy plantation owners on the verge of bankruptcy. * [6:45] - Kate says, “Another factor of this which we often don’t think about is the familiarity of a lot of the financial instruments that people relied on at that time.” During this time, planters had insurance policies on slaves that are similar to financial systems used to this day. * [9:16] - One of the aspects of the economic development of the American South is the question of banking and the availability of credit in the South. * [9:56] - Planters needed to deal with banks and middlemen to receive loans to buy seeds and slaves. Kate reminds us of the seasonality of the cotton enterprise. * [11:07] - Kate describes the complex nature of this financial system and how the planters were financially sophisticated. They were on the cutting edge of finances and agricultural technology of the time. * [12:13] - Craig shares that this aspect of the time period fascinated him as he revisited this topic as an adult. * [13:43] - Law had to be created for specific scenarios involving slaves, including what happens to them if the slave owner died and the status of a child born to a slave. * [14:37] - Maryland and Virginia became very self-sufficient in the sale of slaves and developed a very sophisticated slave trade market. Craig compares the system to that of selling and managing livestock. * [16:10] - There is a lot of evidence that slave owners did not understand slaves to be the same as livestock. Kate references a book called Soul by Soul by Walter Johnson that shows the human connection in this commodification. * [18:01] - The process of commodification is never complete. People simply do not comply with that and they’re always showing signs of their humanity and desires that they do not accept what is happening. * [19:05] - Eventually, cotton prices plummet and planters turn to their records and see their slaves as commodities to sell. Families were coldly split apart during this time. * [20:07] - Planters were invested in slaves and when the cost of feeding and clothing the enslaved people on their plantation exceeded the profit they were able to make off their labor, they sold them. * [21:29] - Another instance when slaves were put up for auction was when a slave owner died. Kate describes how this worked and how the sale of human beings became a way to pay off the debt of a deceased plantation owner. * [22:37] - Craig references the movie 12 Years a Slave and the sexual exploitation and code language in the female slave market. * [24:01] - There was a huge rise in cotton productivity that Craig explains was not due to agricultural technology, but instead through the use of extreme intimidation, cruelty, torture, and humiliation in slave labor. * [26:19] - Craig also shares a story and quotes the author about a slave owner who kept record of the productivity as a result of his torturing those who picked the cotton. * [28:02] - Slavery was founded on violence. Kate explains how you cannot own people and use them in the way they were being used without the use of violence. * [29:23] - Kate addresses the impact of this violence, not only on those who were enslaved, but on the owners as well. It was perverting of their morality and worldview. * [30:08] - Kate compares this system of violence as a volcano that slave owners were sitting on. They had tremendous power, but they were also afraid and vulnerable. * [31:07] - The abuser debases himself as he debases another person. This is applicable to present day, as Craig explains that our morality is perverted any time we treat another person as something beneath us. * [33:40] - It is hard to think about how white people used violence and torture of other human beings to increase productivity and profit. But since it is part of our true story, we need to learn to deal with it. * [34:51] - In next week’s episode we will continue our discussion, but will pivot to the conversation about our quest for justice as experienced in the Northern states, also with our guest Dr. Kate Masur.
Links and Resources: Connect with Craig:
- The Way of Love
- Craig's Sermon Podcast
More from Dr. Kate Masur
- About Kate Masur - Northwestern University
- Kate Masur on Twitter
- Until Justice Be Done: America’s First Civil Rights Movement From Revolution to Reconstruction by Kate Masur
- More books authored by Kate Masur
- “Yes, Wednesday’s attempted insurrection is who we are” Washington Post article by Kate Masur and Gregory Downs
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
Welcome to Conversations: Race on the Rocks with your host, Craig Uffman. Today, our focus is on our genesis, our birth as a nation, the period in which We the People determined -- to quote LBJ when he called Congress to approve our Voting Rights Act -- that We the People would strive to “bring full and equal and exact justice to all of our people.” This episode’s guest, Dr. Kate Masur, is here to help us remember some of the most important stories that shaped the racial landscape and intentions with which we still wrestle with today.
Kate is a Professor at Northwestern University specializing in the United States of the 19th Century. She has a primary focus in how Americans grapple with questions of race and equality after the abolition of slavery in both the north and the south. Kate is the author of Until Justice Be Done: America's First Civil Rights Movement From Revolution to Reconstruction, which will be available in March, along with many books and articles that examine the law of politics and everyday life in US History.
Listen, as Kate explains how the feeling around slavery shaped the colonies differently, causing tensions around the tobacco industry, and how the southern colonies were more dependent on slave labor than the northern colonies. Kate discusses why we could not abolish slavery by the time they wrote the US Constitution, though the Declaration of Independence states all men are created equal.
Kate discusses the debates over slavery at the Constitutional Convention, the 3/5ths compromise, the move west, and the wars fought against Native Americans for their land. Kate speaks about the Louisiana Purchase, which led to a more sophisticated domestic slave trade, and how enslaved people were transported into the western United States as labor to help develop those territories economically.
Kate also shares that during this cruel and violent racially oppressive time, there were always people who spoke out against the injustice. For example, one newspaper, called the Genius of Universal Emancipation, and others, were grounds of hope that became powerful voices before the Civil War.
Listen to the next episode as Kate and Craig talk more about formative moments before the Civil War that now help us understand how we got to where we are today in terms of racial justice. Plus, more on the grounds of hope for our nation.
In this episode:
[02:10] Welcome to the show, Kate!
[03:42] Kate shares why August 1619 is a critical time we should remember.
[07:12] Listen as Kate explains how the concept that slavery was okay shaped the New England, Mid-Atlantic, and southern colonies differently.
[09:56] Europeans used enslaved laborers in large-scale plantation agriculture.
[12:01] Why were we not able to abolish slavery by the time we got to the US Constitution?
[14:58] Why some people who fought for liberty were completely comfortable suppressing the liberty of other people.
[16:21] Kate speaks about the debates around slavery that were present during the Constitutional Convention.
[18:58] Kate believes that it was a struggle for many enslavers to turn people into property.
[20:08] The Constitution allowed slavery to continue and allowed states to determine the future of slavery.
[23:35] Kate discusses the 3/5th's compromise and what it meant to slave owners and what it meant for America’s political tensions for almost 80 years.
[26:06] Eight of the first twelve Presidents of the United States were slave owners.
[27:54] What difference did it make that the northern states emerge as free territories?
[30:16] When we think about race and our nation's history, we must also think about the wars fought against Native Americans.
[32:31] Craig believes it's important for us to think about the external forces that shaped our pursuit of racial justice.
[33:52] Kate speaks about the Louisiana Purchase and how that accelerated the expansion of slavery.
[37:00] Craig shares about Fletcher VS. Peck, which established the principle that a contract is inviolable and that property is absolute, and how that impacted enslaved peoples.
[39:58] What transpired in 1810 that set us up for a more sophisticated domestic slave market?
[42:11] Kate discusses how enslaved people were transported into the southwestern territories to be the labor in developing those places economically.
[44:31] Kate points out that during this violent and racially oppressive time in the United States there were people who spoke out about it.
[47:21] Can you remind us of how we tried to reduce these tensions?
[50:30] Kate discusses the significance of the Missouri Compromise.
[53:13] Kate discusses the concept of federalism and how it limited federal power to constrain the states in the expansion of slavery and the treatment of enslaved peoples.
[56:13] Kate shares the grounds of hope, already in place, even during a tragic and cruel time in the United States.
[59:11] Kate speaks about the newspaper called the Genius of Universal Emancipation.
[1:01:03] Thank you for listening to the show!
Links and Resources
Connect with Craig:
The Way of Love
Facebook | Twitter
Craig's Sermon Podcast
Connect with Kate:
Dr. Kate Masur
Book: Until Justice Be Done: America's First Civil Rights Movement From Revolution to Reconstruction
A list of Kate’s books
Washington Post Article co-authored by Kate - “Yes, Wednesday’s attempted insurrection is who we are”
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com
Welcome to the first episode of Conversations: Race on the Rocks with your host, Craig Uffman. Listen as Craig and his guest Salin Geevarghese, one of world’s foremost experts in the art of reconciling opposing groups in the pursuit of spatial justice, discuss how Craig falling in love with an amazing woman was the catalyst that made this podcast possible, how Salin's father immigrated to the United States from India, and much more.
Salin is the President & CEO of SGG Insight, LLC, a consulting firm offering comprehensive services to public, private, nonprofit, and philanthropic sector leaders and organizations. He also serves as Senior Fellow at the Center for the Study of Social Policy (CSSP) as well as the founding Director of the Mixed-Income Strategic Alliance and its Innovation and Action Network.
Listen as Salin shares his father's journey from India, his academics, and how he ended up in Tennessee. They speak about the influential thought leaders prominent during the 50s and how they guided Salin's father's actions. Salin also discusses some racial indignities his father suffered and what it was like for him as a brown-skinned boy growing up in a predominantly white area.
Salin discusses working with the Obama administration and the award he received, and the letter he wrote to the Washington Post about a kindness President Obama did for his father. This episode ends as all future episodes will, with some grounds of hope that we can all draw from.
Craig has a podcast like you've never heard. If you have felt the injustice of racism or have seen it and want to find a better way, this is the podcast for you.
In this episode:
[02:14] Welcome to the show, Salin!
[02:58] Craig shares a personal story about why Salin is the first guest on the first episode.
[05:11] Craig speaks about telling family and friends about his relationship with a woman of color.
[07:16] His girlfriend's brother asked her to be careful because he felt like he might be racist.
[09:06] Craig discusses how this caused him to go on the exploration journey that led him to do this podcast.
[10:54] Salin is Craig's brother-in-law and the brother that caused him to look at himself and see if anything he put on social media was inappropriate.
[12:50] Salin shares his father's story, an Orthodox priest immigrating to the United States from India in the 50s.
[15:08] His father's pathway into the United States through Ellis Island.
[16:41] Salin discusses his father's academic journey and ending up in Tennessee.
[19:51] Craig shares his insights into who might have influenced Salin's father when he immigrated.
[21:22] Salin speaks about his father's life in India during the great depression.
[24:21] Listen as Salin discusses his father's academic career and his passions.
[25:36] Did your father experience the pain of racial hierarchy?
[26:00] Salin gives some background of India's history and the color caste hierarchy that operates still today.
[30:01] Salin shares a story his father told him about an indignity that he suffered.
[32:23] Salin's family was one of the first families from India in Tennessee.
[35:14] What was it like growing up a brown-skinned boy in a predominantly white neighborhood in Tennessee?
[38:08] Salin speaks about his focus being on academics as a child.
[41:29] Salin shares what he has learned about how our race and class perspectives impact our commitments to resolve those tensions.
[44:37] Salin believes that if he had gone to a different elementary school and didn't have a diverse set of experiences, he doesn't know what his life would've looked like.
[47:20] Salin discusses the school systems teaching poor kids and the influences on what kids could achieve.
[49:45] Salin talks about one of the initiatives he was a leader in.
[50:53] Craig shares how he is approaching this podcast.
[51:26] Salin tells a story about serving in the Obama administration and how his father got to see his son awarded this honor.
[53:04] He speaks about his father's early diagnosis with dementia.
[56:10] Salin discusses sharing with President Obama the question his father asks every day.
[59:06] Salin talks about a story he wrote for the Washington Post.
[1:01:05] What are the grounds of hope that we can draw upon?
[1:03:07] Salin shares the second thing that gives him hope.
[1:05:58] Salin discusses everyone's journey having twists and turns.
[1:07:46] Thank you for being on the show!
Links and Resources
Connect with Craig:
The Way of Love
Facebook | Twitter
Craig’s Sermon Podcast
Connect with Salin:
SGG Insight
Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn
Article #1 in Washington Post
Article #2 in Washington Post
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit wayoflove.substack.com