ZenFounder: Recent Episodes
Sherry Walling
If you like Mixergy, Reboot, Jerry Colonna and other podcasts that focus on the mental and emotional side of startups, you'll love Zen Founder. Join Sherry Walling on this weekly show about staying sane while starting up. Sherry (@zenfounder) is a psychologist with expertise in trauma work and has endured 21 years of marriage to a serial founder.
Feeling lonely at the top? Being a high performer, your awesomeness could be isolating you. In this episode, Dr. Sherry Walling discusses the unique loneliness that comes with success and how to find your tribe.
You'll learn:
- How to find your tribe (even if it's uncomfortable)
- How to overcome the fear of being "too much"
- Three strategies to create a safe space for your awesomeness to flourish
Dr. Sherry Walling is on a mission to help you stop playing small and embrace your awesomeness! Want to connect? Reach out at zenfounder.com/contact
Leave a comment below! What are your biggest struggles with feeling lonely at the top?
entrepreneur #loneliness #success #motivation #mindset #community
Does the constant hustle make you struggle to stay present in your daily life?
In this episode, Dr. Sherry Walling dives deep into the concept of consciousness, exploring its many layers, and explaining how practices like mindfulness, meditation, and even psychedelic medicine can help you become more aware and present.
Episode highlights:
- Learn how expanding your consciousness can improve your decision-making and creativity.
- Explore the connection between consciousness and emotional well-being.
- Practical tips on how to start practicing presence and mindfulness.
Whether you aim to sharpen your intuition for better daily decision-making or seek to elevate your capacity for joy, this episode offers valuable insights to support you on this journey.
Consciousness #Mindfulness #Entrepreneurship
Step into the world of the circus with Dr. Sherry Walling as she explores how this vibrant community offers a sanctuary where quirks and eccentricities are not just accepted, but celebrated. In this episode, Dr. Walling, an amateur circus artist, delves into the transformative impact of embracing our unique traits and shares how the circus provides a powerful metaphor for life, especially for those who feel like they don't quite fit into traditional molds (hello, entrepreneurs!)
If you are near Minneapolis on May 4th, join Dr. Walling in a collective healing experience, where we celebrate all that makes us different! Tickets for the May 4th show at the Luminary Arts Center are available now. Don't miss out! Book your tickets: www.touchingtwoworlds.com/integration
As entrepreneurs, we are constantly pushing the limits of what we can do in a day, but what happens when we don’t know how to truly rest and restore?
In this video, Dr. Sherry Walling dives deep into the importance of rest in the cycle of high performance, revealing why it is integral to sustaining long-term productivity and avoiding the pitfalls of burnout.
What you'll learn:
- Misconceptions about rest (and why scrolling on your phone doesn't count.)
- The psychological and physical benefits of disconnecting, embracing nature, and nurturing your sensory experiences.
- Overlooked strategies that high performers use to recharge, reset, and integrate restorative rest into your busy life.
No more excuses, entrepreneurs. You can't afford not to rest. Turn off your phone, step away from the screen, and embrace truly restorative practices that will help you thrive in business and life.
Is your mental health treatment compromising your sexual well-being? Discover the nuanced impacts of SSRIs on your sex life and why psilocybin can be a groundbreaking ally in battling depression without diminishing your capacity for joy and pleasure.
In this video, we explore:
- The challenge of depression and anxiety on sexual intimacy.
- The often overlooked side effects of SSRIs on sexual desire and pleasure.
- Insights from recent research on psilocybin vs. SSRIs and their effects on sexual experience, and how psilocybin-assisted psychotherapy could revolutionize the sex life of those struggling with depression.
For more detailed information and insights, check out the research article: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-49817-4
Let's connect! If you're navigating these challenges and looking for personalized support, reach out at zenfounder.com/contact. We specialize in helping high-.performers thrive in both business and personal life.
In this episode, Dr. Walling explores the fine line between being an emotionally intelligent leader and falling into the trap of people-pleasing.
If you are an entrepreneur who is pouring your heart, soul, and intellect into your work, recognizing the signs of people-pleasing and taking steps to maintain your inner compass is vital. So, where do we draw the line between being a considerate leader and compromising our well-being for others' approval?
Listen to the episode to discover 5 key signs that you are a people-pleasing leader and how that affects your company's future.
Are you feeling lost in the hustle, unsure of who you are in the middle of the demands of leadership?
As one of the world's only clinical psychologists focused on the mental health of entrepreneurs, Dr. Sherry Walling blends elite research training, extensive psychotherapy experience, and firsthand entrepreneurial insight to support you. Connect with us at zenfounder.com/contact for personalized support.
Are you and your partner finding yourselves stuck in the same cycle of conflicts and misunderstandings, no matter how hard you try to break free? In today's video, Dr. Walling delves into the transformative potential of psychedelic-assisted therapy for couples, especially those in the entrepreneurial space who may find their relationships challenged by the unique pressures of their lifestyle. She explores how substances like MDMA can offer a profound opportunity for couples to reconnect, communicate more effectively, and heal longstanding issues by fostering an environment of empathy, trust, and understanding.
Throughout this video, we'll discuss:
- The science behind MDMA-assisted psychotherapy and how it can lower defenses, allowing for deeper emotional connections.
- Benefits for couples, including those with a history of conflict or those simply seeking to deepen their bond.
- The importance of professional guidance in navigating this therapeutic journey.
- The current legal landscape and research status of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy in the US
At ZenFounder, we understand the complexities of balancing a relationship with entrepreneurial demands. If you're looking to explore new avenues to enhance your relationship, reach out to ZenFounder for a consultation. Let's work together to bring touch, love, and deeper connection back into your life
Do you often find yourself caught in the relentless cycle of overthinking, where anxiety and repetitive thoughts leave you feeling like a hamster on a wheel? In this episode, Dr. Sherry Walling explores how to transform your thought process from overthinking to deep thinking: a productive, inspired state of mind that moves ideas forward with momentum.
Putting your thought process into action and actively engaging your mind in problem-solving is a powerful asset. Whether you're crafting your next big business move or navigating personal challenges, the strategies shared in this episode will teach you how to use your intellectual power effectively.
At ZenFounder, we specialize in guiding individuals out of the spiral of overthinking and into a state of flow—essential for a thriving business and a fulfilling life. Contact us and take the first step toward a more impactful and purpose-driven life.
Have you ever considered how the simple act of touch can transform your mental health? Touch, an often ignored aspect of human functioning, is crucial for development, emotional regulation, and immune function.
In this episode, Dr. Walling discusses the barriers to incorporating more touch into our lives and explores why entrepreneurs often struggle with isolation and difficulty asking for and accepting touch.
Learn how to create opportunities for touch, and understand why it should be an essential part of your mental health regimen.
If you or someone you know is finding it difficult to integrate touch into their relationships, Brooke Bergman Parr, ZenFounder’s relationship expert, is here to help. She specializes in helping entrepreneur couples enhance intimacy and connection. Reach out for a consultation with Brooke and bring touch back into your life.
As entrepreneurs, although we understand that a fulfilling life goes beyond work and productivity, we often struggle to make time for play. However, did you know that engaging in hobbies that energize you, rather than consume your time, can actually boost your peak performance? In this insightful episode, Dr. Walling presents powerful arguments for why play should be an essential, non-negotiable part of your life.
Key Highlights:
- Learn how engaging in hobbies can be a vital tool for regulating your nervous system, ensuring a balanced state of homeostasis essential for optimal functioning.
- Understand the impact of neurological diversification through play on preventing burnout and fostering a resilient, adaptable brain.
- Embrace the significance of hobbies in shaping your identity beyond work and productivity.
- Gain insights into how hobbies, especially those involving movement, can enrich your life, boost your creativity, and enhance your overall well-being.
Ready to see play in practice? Curious about trying out a hobby that's anything but ordinary?
Join Dr. Walling for the 'Touching Two Worlds: Integration' Circus Show + Trapeze Experience in Minneapolis on May 4th. The “Skydancer’s Package” offers you the chance to actively participate in a trapeze class and rediscover the joy of play.
Here's what you can expect:
- Reconnect with your body and explore the boundaries of what you thought was possible for yourself.
- Shift your focus from the mind to the body, a unique perspective that can be especially valuable for entrepreneurs.
- Our world-class coaches will guide you through every step, from the moment you climb onto the platform to the exhilarating leap. It's a transformation from "I can't" to "I did it!" in a nurturing and supportive environment.
Click here for all the details and to secure your spot in this exhilarating adventure.
Do you feel caught in the cycle of overworking? Are you constantly pushing the limits of your mind and body to get things done? In this video, Dr. Sherry Walling unpacks the complex psychology of overworking, a common challenge in the entrepreneurial world. Drawing from her professional insights and personal experiences, Dr. Walling helps you identify the signs, understand the drivers, and rethink the common narratives around overworking.
Episode Highlights:
- -Do you end your days feeling as if you've climbed Mount Everest? Dr. Walling explores what emotional exhaustion means and why it's a red flag.
- -Morning Energy Alert: Understanding your morning mood can be a key indicator of overworking.
- -Are you driven by a need to prove your worth, or perhaps a fear of scarcity? Explore 4 common psychological drivers behind the urge to overwork.
If you feel it's time to explore a more balanced approach to work and life, contact us at zenfounder.com/contact. We’d love to be of help in your journey.
If you find this episode insightful, consider subscribing to Dr. Walling's newsletter for more content on entrepreneurship, mental health, and sustainable success: zenfounder.com/#newsletter.
Join Dr. Sherry Walling in this compelling episode as she explores the often-missed connection between nurturing a romantic relationship and achieving business success. Drawing from her extensive experience as a clinical psychologist and insights from her own marriage to an entrepreneur, Dr. Walling offers a unique perspective on the challenges and strategies for keeping love alive in the demanding world of business.
In this episode, you will learn:
- What happens in the brain of an entrepreneur when they think of their business.
- How to avoid letting your business become a 'third wheel' in your romantic bond.
- How practicing focused attention can save your connection with your partner.
- The impact of mutual hobbies on enhancing your relationship.
This episode is a must-listen for entrepreneurs and their partners, providing essential guidance for thriving in both love and business. Tune in to transform the way you perceive and manage your most valuable partnership!
In this insightful episode, Dr. Sherry Walling dives into a vital yet often overlooked aspect of leadership: the power of forgiveness. This discussion challenges the traditional perception of forgiveness being a weakness but as a key to resilience, effective leadership, and personal growth.
Episode highlights:
- Learn why forgiving someone is distinct from re-entering a relationship with them.
- Discover how forgiveness is primarily an internal journey, focusing on self-healing rather than external reconciliation.
- Uncover the importance of forgiving oneself as a step towards overall healing and better decision-making in business and life.
Are you navigating life feeling like there are emotional landmines buried within you, ready to be triggered at any moment? If unresolved forgiveness issues are keeping you in a state of constant vigilance, draining your energy and preventing you from being fully present and authentic in your life and work, it's time to seek change. Don't let the burdens of the past hold you back any longer. Reach out to us at zenfounder.com/contact and embark on a journey to reclaim your clarity, energy, and purpose.
Did you know that entrepreneurs typically operate in a constant high-arousal state, because of the pressure of their role? In this insightful episode, Dr. Sherry Walling unveils effective strategies for entrepreneurs and high performers to manage anxiety. She draws from her experience with veterans and high-stress professionals to offer the 'Three B's' approach: Breath, Body, and Brain.
Discover how our body and brain can misinterpret danger, leading to heightened anxiety states even in the absence of real threats, and how simple techniques like deep breathing and progressive muscle relaxation can activate the vagus nerve, a key player in calming the body's fight or flight response.
How often do you find the voice in your head is your toughest critic? And can you turn it into your biggest cheerleader? In this video, Dr. Sherry Walling delves into a familiar struggle for many entrepreneurs: the harsh inner voice that often holds us back more than it pushes us forward.
What we're exploring:
- How our past, particularly our upbringing and parental influences, shape our internal dialogue.
- The nature of self-criticism versus self-coaching and their impact on your personal and professional life.
- Practical insights on transforming that critical inner voice into a constructive, supportive coach.
If you're ready to shift your inner narrative from critical to empowering, this episode is for you!
In this episode, Dr. Sherry Walling delves into the fascinating world of Sigmund Freud's psychological theories and their unexpected relevance for today's entrepreneurs. Discover how his groundbreaking contributions to understanding early childhood, internal conflict, and the unconscious mind continue to resonate in modern psychology and significantly influence our success in business and in life.
Explore how Freud's theories can be adapted and applied in today's entrepreneurial landscape to promote success, self-awareness, and mental well-being.
FreudianTheory #EntrepreneurMindset #BusinessPsychology #LeadershipDevelopment
Stay ahead in your mental health journey with Dr. Sherry Walling’s ZenFounder newsletter. Tailored for high performers, you’ll receive exclusive insights on mental wellness, bonus content from her books, and early access to upcoming events and workshops. Subscribe now!
Did you know your mental health and how you navigate your personal journey have immense implications for the collective well-being? In this episode, Dr. Sherry Walling explores the sense of heaviness that many of us are experiencing, not just in our personal lives but in our communities and across the globe, to question the traditional view of mental health as an individual metric, instead considering its collective impact.
Discover how individual actions contribute to alleviating global suffering and enhancing collective well-being. Gain insights on self-talk, self-care, and political activism to improve both personal and societal mental health, starting with you to uplift the collective.
MentalHealthAwareness #PersonalIsPolitical
Ever wondered why sometimes, as a fully grown adult, you suddenly feel like a seven-year-old again, especially in high-stress situations like a board meeting or while making an important decision? In this episode, Sherry explores the fascinating world of Internal Family Systems (IFS), a model that reveals how different parts of our past experiences and emotions continue to live within us and influence our present actions.
Join her as she delves into the groundbreaking work of Dr. Richard Schwartz, the creator of the IFS model, to discuss how 'Exiles', 'Firefighters', and 'Managers' within us play a significant role in our daily lives.
Key Highlights:
Understand how childhood experiences can resurface in adulthood, influencing our reactions and decisions in surprising ways.
Get a grasp on the concept of 'Exiles', 'Firefighters', and 'Managers' – parts of our psyche that interact in complex ways, shaping our behavior and emotional responses.
Plus a real-life story of an entrepreneur whose business challenges during COVID-19 revealed deeper, underlying childhood fears and motivations.
Whether you're an entrepreneur facing business challenges, a professional navigating career change, or simply curious about personal growth, this discussion will shed light on how childhood experiences can affect your emotional response today.
In her latest episode, Dr. Sherry Walling delves into the emotional blend of joy and grief that the holidays often bring. She discusses the varying experiences of grief from year to year and the importance of recognizing that there is no universal way to handle it.
Dr. Walling also explores the idea of 'aliveness' within grief - the pursuit of joy, laughter, and connection amidst sorrow. This episode is a profound conversation about embracing the complexities of our emotions during this season.
If you or someone you know is facing grief this holiday season, Dr. Walling invites you to join this intimate discussion. She also encourages you to explore her book, 'Touching Two Worlds,' for deeper insights into her personal journey with grief and loss. A resource she hopes will bring comfort and understanding to your own path. Available now: https://a.co/d/8iRP1Up#TouchingTwoWorlds #HolidayGrief
In this insightful episode, Sherry delves into the profound lesson of how your focus determines your future, especially in the challenging world of entrepreneurship. Drawing from unique experiences in circus arts, she explores the critical role of where you set your gaze and how it can shape the trajectory of your personal and professional life.
Highlights:
- Learn how directing your gaze impacts your business and life goals.
- Explore why not defining your focus can be more daunting than facing potential failure.
- Tips on how to envision and articulate your life goals for long-term fulfillment.
Remember, your momentum goes where your gaze goes. So, where are you looking? Are you focused on what truly matters to you?
Sherry discusses the impact of neurodivergence on the entrepreneurial journey, emphasizing that these distinctive traits can serve as both assets and obstacles in our business endeavors. While neurodivergence can be considered a superpower, harnessing its benefits necessitates additional effort, deliberate attention, assistance, and training to mitigate potential challenges it may pose to the life of a company.
In a world seemingly inundated with the shadows of depression, worry, and loneliness, it's easy to feel like we're caught in a whirlwind of chaos. Sherry with her naturally optimistic outlook, gives some actionable antidotes to this chaos you can apply for yourself and those around you.
Sherry explores the reasons why one might hesitate to embrace therapy. Many individuals harbor reservations or anxieties about delving into substantial personal development efforts. This reluctance may stem from the realization that as we evolve, our entire world undergoes transformation, necessitating a readiness for change. Therapy, albeit beneficial, can evoke trepidation. Opening up and revealing the most intimate aspects of one's thoughts and life can be daunting. Yet, there's an additional, somewhat humorous, reason to be wary of therapy—what if it actually works? Sherry sheds light on the potential upheaval and disruptions that can accompany successful therapy and change, providing insights into various possibilities and outcomes for listeners to consider.
Discover the nuances of subtle sexism prevalent in various business settings like events, conferences, and dinners, often unintentional yet impactful. Gain awareness of these occurrences to ensure you're not inadvertently contributing to such behavior.
Fear serves a valuable purpose by safeguarding us from potential threats and danger. It's essential not to eliminate fear entirely, as it plays a crucial role in our survival. However, when fear becomes excessive, it can become a hindrance, preventing us from achieving our goals and aspirations effectively. In this episode Sherry covers some ways to help you "fear less".
In this episode, we challenge the conventional perception of childlike behavior at work and explore the positive aspects it can bring to our professional lives. Sherry often encourages her clients to embrace childlike qualities in their work approach. Join us to uncover the unexpected advantages of integrating childlike wonder and creativity into your professional journey, enhancing productivity and overall satisfaction in the workplace.
Navigating challenging interpersonal dynamics in the business world, especially when you encounter individuals who hold unfavorable opinions of you, whether they are employees, colleagues, or customers leaving adverse reviews about your company or product, can be one of the most demanding aspects of the corporate landscape. In this episode, Sherry provides valuable insights on how to effectively address and manage such situations.
We often don't discuss matters of sexuality in the context of our professional lives, but it's important to recognize that one's intimate life can indeed exert a significant influence on their career. In this episode, Sherry delves into the significance of one's sexual well-being and its connection to their professional life.
A common observation Sherry frequently encounters in her work with entrepreneurs is a noticeable disconnect between the mind, emotional well-being, and the physical body. Sherry firmly holds the belief that our physical bodies are among the most vital assets for enhancing our mental health. Therefore, in today's episode, the focus revolves around exploring the intricate connections between the body and the various aspects of our overall well-being.
In the latest episode, Sherry delves into the art of contemplating, recognizing, and expressing our desires. This practice of discerning and vocalizing our wants holds immense value, extending its benefits not only to our professional endeavors but also to our personal lives and relationships. As driven founders, we frequently find ourselves engrossed in the hustle, seldom affording the time for deep introspection into our true desires and the things that ignite our passion.
Our connection with our bodies holds immense significance. Sherry firmly advocates for nurturing a cooperative rapport with our physical selves. In this podcast, Sherry explores the holistic integration of mental health encompassing the body, mind, spirit, and relationships, offering insights into restoring a harmonious bond with one's body. This journey isn't just for personal well-being but extends its advantages to your loved ones and even the realm of business.
For the past five to six years of her career, Sherry has harbored a profound fascination with the potential of psychedelics in the realm of mental health. She delves into how this immersion in the field of mental health has not only expanded her spiritual awareness but has also heightened it, particularly compared to her pre-psychedelic experiences. When we contemplate what thriving truly entails — giving our utmost in our endeavors, steering our businesses, and assuming the leadership roles we aspire to — Sherry asserts that such aspirations necessitate a degree of introspection into our own spirituality.
Drawing from her prior experience aiding combat veterans grappling with PTSD, Sherry reveals a relationship tool that can keeps us from crossing the line to a place we are all vulnerable to in certain moments How can we remain anchored in patience and self-control when life feels disordered? Stay tuned to learn this very valuable technique that can be used in both our personal and professional lives.
At times, the essence of an idea can be swiftly conveyed. Within this episode, Sherry shares a few simple strategies you can use to trick your brain into getting more done in less time.
Sherry tackles the widely used mental health adage, "fake it 'til you make it." This saying finds particular relevance in bolstering our self-assurance. Given that entrepreneurs frequently navigate uncharted territories, often beyond their comfort zones, the need to cultivate confidence becomes paramount. In this episode, Sherry furnishes strategies to enhance the projection of confidence during instances or tasks where our self-assurance might waver.
Sherry’s YouTube Channel
The concept of a morning routine has sparked discussions among numerous influential entrepreneurs. A prevailing belief asserts its significance in the realm of successful entrepreneurship. Nevertheless, Sherry contends that while it holds true for some, it might not universally apply. In this episode, Sherry delves into the notion of magical mornings, dismantling the myth and outlining her perspective as a non-believer.
Sherry’s YouTube Channel
Quiet individuals are undeniably worth the additional effort required to unravel their potential. Embracing more quietness within entrepreneurial circles offers compelling arguments. By fostering active listening, exercising patience, and embracing moments of pause, this episode reveres the strength of quiet people. Sherry passionately advocates how incorporating quietude can significantly benefit both your business and personal life.
Sherry’s YouTube Channel
Psychedelic-supported psychotherapy emerges as an immensely powerful healing tool, profoundly aiding entrepreneurs in maintaining healthy functioning and overall well-being. In this episode, Sherry sheds light on MDMA's specific role in this context and enlightens entrepreneurs about essential aspects to consider with its arrival as a promising mental health option.
Sherry discusses three common negative stories that entrepreneurs frequently grapple with. She identifies these stories and offers valuable strategies to reframe them. Negative stories extend beyond mere negative thoughts; they are more intricate, recurrent, and significantly impact our behavior and interactions over time.
The Entrepreneur’s Guide to Keeping Your Sh*t Together
The Vagus Nerve serves as a notable illustration of the integral relationship between mental health and the entire body. It profoundly influences our thoughts, physical sensations, and emotional experiences. Recognizing the significance of the Vagus Nerve, Sherry emphasizes the importance of having a fundamental understanding of its functions and learning strategies to effectively engage with it. By harnessing the power of the Vagus Nerve, individuals can cultivate the ability to remain composed in moments of heightened stress or anxiety. Sherry offers valuable insights and techniques to "hack" the Vagus Nerve, empowering individuals to navigate challenging situations with a sense of calm and control.
Touching Two Worlds
In this latest podcast episode, Sherry delves into three lesser-known aspects of grief that often remain unspoken. While grief is a part of the human experience, those navigating the entrepreneurial path encounter a unique set of challenges. Enduring numerous losses and facing uncertainties beyond the typical 9-5 population, they grapple with a distinct form of grief. Drawing from her book "Touching Two Worlds," Sherry sheds light on this subject, providing valuable insights and understanding.
Touching Two Worlds
In this week's podcast episode, Sherry delves into the topic of high-functioning depression and sheds light on why entrepreneurs may be particularly susceptible to it. She explores the symptoms associated with this condition and highlights the potential challenges healthcare professionals face in identifying it among entrepreneurs, as the diagnosis of depression traditionally revolves around functional impairment. Furthermore, Sherry's expertise extends beyond the podcast, as she has also contributed an insightful article on this subject to Fortune magazine.
Fortune Magazine Article
Sherry’s YouTube Channel
Inspired by an off the grid trip in northern Minnesota, Sherry explores the concept of presence, highlighting its significance in fostering meaningful connections and engaging in genuine interactions. Whether it involves focusing on a single objective, engaging in relational exchanges, or capturing undivided attention while performing tasks, presence holds a profound value.
Sherry, cognizant of the entrepreneurial landscape, acknowledges the practicality of multitasking as a valuable skill. However, she also raises awareness about the potential challenges it poses in our personal relationships. To address this, she imparts practical tips on cultivating and practicing presence, enabling individuals to navigate the delicate balance between multitasking efficiency and fostering authentic connections.
Sherry argues that "should" is an unhelpful word because it lacks specificity and carries connotations of shame and obligation. When we replace phrases like "I want to" or "I feel like it would be helpful," with “should”, we allow external influences to shape our decision-making instead of relying on our own intrinsic motivation. The word "should" is associated with guilt stemming from societal beliefs that are indirectly imposed and rooted in desires, ethics, and personal growth. Sherry challenges the notion that there is any valid use for the word "should." Drawing from the words of therapists that have come before her, do not “should” yourself and instead advocate for embracing personal choices and inner guidance.
Inspired by the profound words of Annie Dillard: "How we spent our days, is of course how we spend our lives." Sherry, enlightens us on the importance of taking time for self-reflection and the dangers of becoming too immersed in work. We explore how the changing seasons can serve as a reminder to reassess how we spend our days and ensure they align with our deepest desires.
In today's episode, join Sherry as she delves into the topic of transitions and highlights their significance in our adult lives. She emphasizes the importance of approaching transitions with thoughtfulness, as they impact both our personal well-being and our businesses. Sherry sheds light on the potential risks of neglecting transitions, such as failing to allocate time to honor them, skipping the necessary steps to internalize their effects, and overlooking the exploration of profound questions. She encourages us to prioritize transitions by carving out space for them in our calendars, recognizing their value in fostering growth and fulfillment.
Rob Walling hosts the podcast this week, the focus is on entrepreneurial blind spots and the crucial role of self-awareness. The episode highlights the negative consequences of being unaware of one's strengths and weaknesses, and stresses the importance of recognizing when to delegate, seek assistance, or devote extra attention to a task. Listeners will also gain insights into effective strategies for identifying and addressing blind spots in their own entrepreneurial journeys.
In this episode of the podcast, Sherry reflects on the ups and downs of being an entrepreneur after returning from a spring vacation. Balancing a busy calendar and a full inbox has led her to contemplate the factors that affect our presence for those around us. As entrepreneurs, our emotional availability and presence are crucial for our teams, co-founders, and employees. It's about being able to truly listen, read between the lines, exercise patience, and show up authentically. Sherry dives into the topic of decision fatigue and how it can impact our primary relationships in today's episode.
Sherry sits down with Naveed Lalani and Brad Baum, the masterminds behind the Founder Mental Health Pledge. Their initiative encourages both investors and companies to recognize mental health treatment as a legitimate business expense. By prioritizing the mental health of founders and their teams, startups are more likely to succeed. The pledge promises to support founders in treating the costs associated with caring for their mental health, including therapy, coaching, group support, and app-based solutions. Lalani and Baum emphasize that mental health should be a top priority for every business owner. Tune in to learn more about the importance of supporting founder mental health in the startup world.
Founder Mental Health Pledge
It's not uncommon for adults and adolescents to experience suicidal thoughts and feelings, but unfortunately, many people lack the necessary skills to address these sensitive conversations. Sherry sheds light on the topic of suicide and its impact on family members. She emphasizes the danger of believing the false notion that things would improve if we were no longer around and urges us to be vigilant against such thoughts. Additionally, she offers practical advice on how to seek help and support for ourselves or loved ones who may be struggling with suicidal ideation.
Sherry talks with Dr. Lea Lis a medical doctor who is a double board-certified Adult and Child Psychiatrist. Dr. Lea discusses the topic of communicating with our children about sex and overcoming any feelings of shame that may arise as parents when doing so. Dr. Lea also shares tactics to empower our children with the confidence and skills to make decisions and communicate effectively about their boundaries.
Dr. Lea Lis
Sherry discusses one of the prevalent obstacles of entrepreneurship - unforeseen difficulties. When we undertake challenging endeavors, we do not have control over the type of difficulty we may encounter. Moreover, at times, we may not be able to predict the severity of the challenges we will face.
Expected difficulties tend to be less demanding since we can respond to them appropriately. Conversely, unforeseen challenges can be overwhelming, catching us off guard and causing us to question our competence.
Sherry also provides useful techniques for managing unexpected challenges.
In this episode Sherry talks about co-founder relationships and some of the strengths she sees in the best relationships that she works with. She provides numerous suggestions on aspects to emulate in your relationships with co-founders, which can also be useful in your intimate partner relationships.
In this week's episode, relationship expert Brooke Bergman Parr dives into the topic of sex in relationships and its significance in couples therapy. It's no secret that sex is often one of the top concerns that couples address when seeking counseling. Despite being a normal part of a healthy relationship, sex can be a source of tension and confusion for many couples. However, with the right guidance and support, it can also be a source of connection and play.
Brooke shares with us the importance of addressing sexual concerns in couples therapy and provides practical tips and techniques for couples to improve their sexual relationship. She helps dispel common misconceptions about sexual frequency and provide a framework for what a healthy amount of sex may look like for different couples. Tune in to learn how to turn sex from a source of heartache to a source of connection and play in your relationship.
In this episode Sherry focuses on the foundation for a healthy co-founder relationship and its impact on overall business relationships and mental health. Research shows that relationship quality is one of the strongest predictors of mental health and therefore, it's impossible to discuss entrepreneur mental health and well-being without touching upon relationships. The podcast delves into the key elements that make up a healthy relationship, the common pitfalls and how to avoid them, and the impact it has on business success and personal well-being. Whether you are starting a business with a partner or dealing with internal relationships within your organization, this podcast offers valuable insights and practical tips to help build strong, healthy relationships.
In this episode Sherry talks about the power of presence. The ability of being fully available to the person you are interacting with. In today's modern society, there are so many distractions vying for our attention, making it difficult to remain present. Sherry discusses some best practices you can implement to become more present in your life and to those around you.
Sherry talks about the conversation around how psychedelics may play a role in mental health treatment and care. With FDA approval for MDMA therapy as a treatment for PTSD possibly coming as soon as this year, she shares a personal story of what sparked her interest in the movement to integrate psychedelic medicine into mental healthcare.
Sherry’s TEDx Talk
Sometimes external cues (a new calendar year, holidays), can give us the opportunity to remind ourselves to check in and evaluate. In this episode Sherry shares the process of doing a “double check” of self reflection that can help to reshape the direction of our personal and professional lives.
Sherry’s TEDx Talk
Brooke Bergman hosts the podcast this week to talk about families of origin, grief, and how to find hope in what can be a challenging time of year for some people. As we move into the heart of the holiday season, she helps answer the question, what do we do if being home isn’t actually restful?
Sherry Walling’s TEDx Talk
In today’s podcast Sherry talks with psychologist, writer, and teacher in the field of personal growth Gay Hendricks. They talk about how he got his start in psychology in his early days at Standford University, an accidental fall on some ice that changed his proception of self, and his discovery of “pure consciousness”.
Hendricks Institute
Rob Walling joins the podcast this week to help Sherry talk through the question of whether or not to continue this podcast. They discuss the advantages, disadvantages, the podcast’s legacy, and new possible options for the future.
A fellow psychologist, Dr. Steve Thayer joins the podcast this week. Steve also shares an interest in entrepreneur mental health and the new wave of research around how psychedelic science can help people who suffer from mental illness or want to optimize or improve performance.
Dr. Steve Thayer, Ph.D.
Psychedelic Therapy Frontiers
Even with the holidays fast approaching, people can still feel alone this time of year. In this episode Sherry shares some reflections about the power of aloness and how to re-frame difficult interactions as an opportunity for sovereign aloness.
Touching Two World
In this episode of Zenfounder, Brooke has a conversation with active duty service member Chad Conley, Green Beret. They discuss the ways his military service has supported his relationship skills as well as his work serving others through his non-profit, 50 for the fallen.
50 For The Fallen
Sherry talks with Mike Brcic, founder of Wayfinders, a project that seeks to facilitate connection to entrepreneurs who may be connection starved through community, challenge, and culture.
Touching Two Worlds
Sherry talks with author & personal brand expert Jessica Zwieg, about the challenges of putting yourself out there. Jessica shares her wisdom of how a best personal brand comes from a sense of being who we truly are and how to convey that through social media. So whether you’re building a personal brand or just an entrepreneur with some kind of public presence, there are some great tips in this episode for you.
Jessica Zweig
Sherry talks with author & personal brand expert Jessica Zwieg, about the challenges of putting yourself out there. Jessica shares her wisdom of how a best personal brand comes from a sense of being who we truly are and how to convey that through social media. So whether you’re building a personal brand or just an entrepreneur with some kind of public presence, there are some great tips in this episode for you.
Jessica Zweig
In today’s episode Sherry talks about the college decision. As an entrepreneur herself people often ask her if college is really worth it for their kids. Is the time better spent developing an actually business? Sherry offers some advice on these tough decisions.
In today’s episode Sherry talks about the college decision. As an entrepreneur herself people often ask her if college is really worth it for their kids. Is the time better spent developing an actually business? Sherry offers some advice on these tough decisions.
Brooke Bergman Parr hosts the podcast this week to talk about how we can improve our relationships without using words. She discusses body language, the power of energy, the power of thoughts, and the power of play, all ways of learning to speak with our bodies.
Brooke Bergman Parr hosts the podcast this week to talk about how we can improve our relationships without using words. She discusses body language, the power of energy, the power of thoughts, and the power of play, all ways of learning to speak with our bodies.
Sherry interviews hypnotherapist Elliot Roe about the use of hypnosis to help entrepreneurs and other high performers accomplish their goals. Elliot has done a deep dive into hypnosis and how to use it to support people in their performance and overall mental health and well being. In this conversation they unpack how it works and the scientific underpinning that can make hypnotherapy successful for some people.
Elliot Roe
Touching Two Worlds
Sherry interviews hypnotherapist Elliot Roe about the use of hypnosis to help entrepreneurs and other high performers accomplish their goals. Elliot has done a deep dive into hypnosis and how to use it to support people in their performance and overall mental health and well being. In this conversation they unpack how it works and the scientific underpinning that can make hypnotherapy successful for some people.
Elliot Roe
Touching Two Worlds
Relationship and marriage expert Brooke Bergman Parr hosts the podcast this week to talk about one of the biggest issues that plague couples. What to do when parenting styles aren’t aligned.
Relationship and marriage expert Brooke Bergman Parr hosts the podcast this week to talk about one of the biggest issues that plague couples. What to do when parenting styles aren’t aligned.
Sherry interviews Rob Walling, Co-Founder of TinySeed, about what he’s learned about entrepreneur psychology and success in the years he has been running his startup accelerator.
Sherry’s Entrepreneur.com Articles
Touching Two Worlds
Sherry interviews Rob Walling, Co-Founder of TinySeed, about what he’s learned about entrepreneur psychology and success in the years he has been running his startup accelerator.
Sherry’s Entrepreneur.com Articles
Touching Two Worlds
Back from her vacation in Iceland, Sherry returns to the podcast to have a conversation with Mary Firestone about how healing happens. Mary talks about the traumatic experience that unraveled her and the variety of strategies she explored to find a new sense of wholeness
Back from her vacation in Iceland, Sherry returns to the podcast to have a conversation with Mary Firestone about how healing happens. Mary talks about the traumatic experience that unraveled her and the variety of strategies she explored to find a new sense of wholeness
Relationship expert Brooke Bergman hosts the podcast this week to discuss the topic of affairs and open relationships. Brooke sheds some light on attachment styles and how they relate to commitment and infidelity.
Relationship expert Brooke Bergman hosts the podcast this week to discuss the topic of affairs and open relationships. Brooke sheds some light on attachment styles and how they relate to commitment and infidelity.
A book two years in the making is finally ready to launch, “Touching Two Worlds” is officially released. A work that poured out of Sherry as she processed the deaths of both her father and brother. It’s part memoir, part psychological assessment, written as a daughter and a sister but also as a clinical psychologist. In it she critiques how grief typically unfolds in western culture and offers suggestions on how we can do it better. Sherry ends this episode by reading a short excerpt from her book.
Touching Two Worlds
Relationship expert and ZenFounder team member Brooke Bergman hosts the podcast this week to talk about love and grief. She explores how they both impact and interact with one another, how the ability to grieve well can determine the course of your love , and things to consider when one or both partners in a relationship are grieving.
Touching Two Worlds
In this episode Sherry interviews writer, entrepreneur, and power-lifter Jodie Cook about her upcoming book “Ten Year Career”. They discuss in detail Jodie’s framework for achieving the success you want, while maintaining the freedom/life style you want, in a much shorter time frame.
JodieCook.com
In this episode Sherry interviews author, speaker, and founder of Priority VA Trivinia Barber to answer the question “how to ask for help”? Trivina helps high performing executives, entrepreneurs , and leaders get connected to the help they need to make their businesses and lives run more smoothly.
Touching Two Worlds
Creating and sharing things are at the heart of entrepreneurship. With the release date of Sherry’s new book “Touching Two Worlds” upcoming, she talks about some of the things she’s learned from this launch. Some of the topics covered are the power of relationships, managing your own mindset, and the importance of being strategic on what feedback you let in and what feedback you should disengage with.
Touching Two Worlds: A Guide for Finding Hope in the Landscape of Loss
Relationship expert Brooke Bergman hosts the podcast this week to talk about creating the summer of love. She shares tips on how to nurture, create, and ignite more passion and love in your relationship. She also shares her own unique approach to couples “date night” and what you can do to improve your routine.
In this episode Sherry talks with author, TEDx speaker, and storyteller Heather Chauvin about how she reshaped her outlook on life and how she wanted to show up as a mother after being diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. They talk about raising teens and some core concepts on parenting from her book “dying to be a good mother”.
Heather’s Book
Heather’s Podcast
In this episode Sherry talks with Amber Capone, Co-Founder of VETS: Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions, Inc. VETS is nonprofit providing for U.S. military veterans seeking psychedelic-assisted therapy. Amber tells the story of her husband, who is a former U.S. Navy SEAL, and his struggle of transitioning to civilian life, dealing with depression and PTSD, and the journey of fail treatments until they finally found something that worked.
VETS
In this episode Sherry interviews Andrew Amann, CEO of NineTwoThree Digital Ventures, an agency that builds apps for mobile and web. Whats interesting about Andrew’s story is his company faced a unique challenge this past few months as 25 members of his team are based in Ukraine. He joins the podcast to talk about how his company has supported those team members and what he is learning about leadership and mental health from this experience.
NineTwoThree.co
NineTwoThree Blog
In this episode Sherry interviews Marika Reese who formed the “Community Healing Team” in Minnesota. The healing team is comprised of members of the African American community, including barbers, political activists, politicians and faith leaders focused on the mental health of their local community. Marika talks about the unique set of challenges she faces pursuing a non-conventional approach to mental health outreach.
In this episode Sherry interviews Andrew Herr, CEO of Fount, a company whose mission is designing a suite of health and performance solutions to give the mind and body what they need to perform at their best. Andrew’s vision is to figure out how to apply the science of individualized performance optimization to the population at scale. He also gives some practical tips entrepreneurs can start doing to increase cognitive performance.
One thing that can really undermine someone’s mental well-being, focus, and productivity is conflict. Conflict on the team or conflict at home has the power to disrupt even the most disciplined entrepreneur. Brooke Bergman Parr hosts this episode to talk about 3 different types of conflict (solvable, perpetual, and gridlock) and how to manage them with you or your team.
The way we work is changing. One of the biggest changes is the move away from the traditional workplace and towards a more remote setup. Sherry talks with Liam Martin, who has a book ‘Running Remote”, on this very topic. They discuss some of the best strategies for growing a remote company.
Breath is the most effective strategy to calm down an anxious mind and body. Sherry interviews Robbie Bent, CEO and Founder of Othership about the transformational power of breathwork. They talk about the birth of his company and it’s community driven mission as well as the benefits of breathwork and techniques you can use yourself to get the most out of it.
Othership
One common topic you hear talked about often in the entrepreneurship world is the idea of Imposter Syndrome. There is a lot of advice given around this subject and Rob joins Sherry on the podcast to give his insights on how to parse the good from the bad. They also dismantle some common tropes people give out as advice like, “fake it til you make it” and “nobody really knows what their doing”.
In this episode Sherry talks about compartmentalization and integration. The idea of how we combine different elements of our personal and professional selves or when and how we choose to separate them. This topic hits close to home for Sherry as she prepares for a book tour for her new book about grief called “Touching Two Worlds”.
touchingtwoworlds.com
ZenFounder team member, Brooke Bergman Parr hosts the podcast this week to talk about how the pandemic has reshaped romance. She shares reflections of the state of our relationships 2 years into Covid. From her work as a relationship expert she gives her insights and hopes to change the conversation about how we love.
In today’s episode Sherry interviews Danielle Steer, managing director at Lunar Startups about personal growth, commitment to self awareness and self reflection. They also discuss the unique challenges experienced by the founders she supports and her goal of shifting the value systems in venture capital.
Sherry is joined on today’s podcast by Julie Ellis, Co-Founder of Mabel’s Labels, an award winning Canadian small business. They talk about Julie’s upcoming book, “Big Gorgeous Goals” and her early entrepreneurial endeavors and the stories that inspired her to write her first book.
Touching Two Worlds
Julie Ellis & co.
To celebrate the 300th episode milestone, Rob joins Sherry to talk about the evolution of the podcast and reflect on what it has meant to them. They discuss some of their favorite episodes as well as what the future holds for ZenFounder.
This episode focuses on sensuality and sexuality, what to do when our level of desire of intimacy differs from our partner. Though on its surface it doesn’t sound like an entrepreneurial or business problem but Sherry has found in her work with entrepreneurs over the years that the ups and downs of business can have a negative effect the level of focus towards a romantic relationship. Sherry enlists the help of relationship expert Brooke Bergman to shine some light on the topic.
Rob joins Sherry on the podcast to talk about a story that has to do with such a simple question, “how many kids do you have?” Despite the simplicity of the question, for Rob and Sherry the answer is quite complicated. They update you on the journey of integrating a new member into the family, a long battle fighting to keep her (legally), and the heartbreak of having to let go.
To catch up on the full backstory check Episode 146
This week's episode is hosted by Brooke Bergman, a ZenFounder team member and relationship specialist. Brooke talks about some practical ways you can improve your mental health and prevent problems
before they arise. She discusses strategies and dives deep on the differences between flow state and non-flow state exercises.
Due to the covid-19 landscape more people than ever have left their jobs and plan on creating their own opportunities. Having been recently contacted by Intuit Inc. to be involved in a campaign to help raise awareness around the unique challenges and needs of early stage entrepreneurs, Sherry shares her insights on the topic in this episode.
Rob Walling joins Sherry on the podcast to talk about shipping content. He shares his ideas and wisdom of how to setup your life & mindset to consistently create content for yourself and business. He discusses his journey of becoming comfortable in front of the camera and shares tips on how you can do the same.
In this episode Sherry talks about the importance of a reset. Sharing in the new year despite maybe some things staying the same (Covid) and being able to begin a new segment of time with fresh ideas and perspective. A reset offers the opportunity to say this time is different than last time. It is impossible to be a healthy, satisfied, connected person without having the capacity to reset.
Every once in awhile a decision can cause you angst and pull you in many different directions, making it difficult to be clear on whats the best direction to go. In this episode Sherry gives you some strategies to give you more clarifaction of whats going on inside yourself when you’re in the middle of these decisions and how to get the best results.
In this episode Sherry talks about the importance of being able to celebrate well with others. There is tremendous value in being in a role where you are committed to really cheering other people & supporting them in their goals. Sherry gives you 4 reasons why this can be helpful.
In this episode Sherry poses the question, do you plan your life around production that meets a schedule or have some structure with the ability to to wonder as inspiration strikes. At a certain stage in your career you may have less to prove. Strict sheduling can be a recipe for success in business but could also be a recipe for anxiety, and self criticism that is not in keeping with good mental health. Sherry explores the idea of giving yourself space and acceptance to try different strategies when it comes to how you produce.
In this episode Sherry interviews Scott Deluzio. Scott is an entrepreneur in the WordPress space, and army veteran who wrote a book about military life and losing his brother in Afghanistan. They talk a lot about the transition back to civilian life, coping with combat stress & the loss of his brother, and the unhealthy ways he dealt with it all.
In this episode Sherry talks about the back to school process for her kids. Growing up in an entrepreneurial family, those entrepreneurial traits when they show up in kids can be tricky to navigate in day to day academic life. Going from flexibility and creativity to a more rigid schedule can cause some transitional stress and irritability. Sherry provides some tips for navigating this transitional time.
In this episode Sherry reads you a chapter from her upcoming book titled “Touching Two Worlds: a Guide to Finding Hope In a Landscape of Loss”. The chapter starts with a story from her own life that’s been a teacher about grief & loss and she concludes with a some practical takeaways about how to talk to grieving people.
There is still an uneasiness that’s taken place inside of us, we as the collective are not okay. One of the things that is driving this is the general sense that the voices we hear from leadership cant really be trusted. The pandemic has really unraveled us as a societies ability to feel like our leaders are making good choices (ex.flip-flopping between covid guidelines). Trust is essential to healthy human development. Sherry talks about the importance of consciously cultivating trust, reaching out and connecting to those around you.
As an entrepreneur we tend to stay busy and the practice of stillness is not easy or natural for us. However from a mental health perspective it is very important. A recent vacation reminded Sherry of what a great gift stillness can be. Its serves as a counterbalance to the hustle and bustle of business life. Sherry describes it as letting the mind and the body have a complete break and how she made it a deliberate point of focus this time around.
On a recent canoeing trip with some friends, Sherry found herself lost and unable to navigate using the map she was given. While in the lake the terrain she expected to see wasn’t there, none of the landmarks matched. The whole time she never questioned the map, only herself. Well it turns out that the staff member from the outfitter where she got the map marked the wrong spot. The entire trip she spent navigating a map with the wrong criteria. Sherry equates this situation to the business world in which entrepreneurs can often ignore indicators or red flags or explain it away. Questions such as do i have the right team, do i have product market fit, is this partnership working? When things aren’t adding up its important to find the actual cause and this is where an external observer (coach. mastermind, therapist) can help give a larger perspective.
As entrepreneurs who do anything in public, we seize to be individuals in the mind of the collective(general population/customers). We become part of a public conversation, which can blur the lines of what our customers want for us and what we want for ourselves. Sherry warns entrepreneurs to be careful to listen to the ques of your minds and bodies and what its telling you. You may be tired, burned out, depressed, these may be signs to step away, sell, or do something different. No matter how loud the noise, the collective will never know whats best for you and your business better than you do.
In this episode Sherry does a deep dive into Imposter Syndrome. Imposter Syndrome can be best summarized as the thought, “i don’t belong here”. It’s a gap between our self assessment and our assessment of the room were in or people around us and whether or not were qualified to be there. There’s an importance of recognizing this in yourself as it can hold you back from interactions, conversations and building deeper relationships. Sherry talks about some work arounds that can help if you’re suffering from condition.
In this episode Sherry talks about entrepreneurs and business owners being victims of cruel and untrue online attacks. Attacks that can get to the core of the credibility of a business. These type of attacks are designed to destroy your business reputation that you’ve worked so hard to build up over time. Sherry discusses the levels of dysfunction this can cause you as a person and to your business when your livelihood is threatened. She gives some tips and steps to take to prepare if you are ever faced with this kind of attack.
MINDCURE
In the past 1.5 years, people have been thrust into virtual work places due to the pandemic and the question arises, what will be the new normal? Will we stay remote or be heading back to the office, and what situation best fits the individual needs? Can there be a way to combine strategies for a more hybrid approach? Sherry attempts to answer these questions along with author, entrepreneur, and CEO of global partner marketing agency: Acceleration Partners, Bob Glazer.
Robert Glazer.com
How To Thrive In The Virtual Workplace Book
In this episode Sherry talks about the mental health power of rites of passage. Most of these rites of passage are ceremonies that are tied to things like education (ex.gradations). Many adult rites of passages go unnoticed or un-celebrated. The challenge for adult development is we don’t have many markers that tell us we’ve moved from one phase of development to another. Sherry tackles this topic and explores the idea of celebrating aging as a badge of honor.
Rob joins the podcast to talk with Sherry on the subject of feedback. No matter what you’re building or putting into the world you’re going to get feedback. He brings up the question, “at what point do you react and change things based on that feedback”? They discuss how to judge whether or not the feedback is useful and what criteria to use to do so.
Ketamine Assisted Psychotherapy is a new(ish) form of treatment for depression, PTSD, and a variety of other mental health conditions that has been gaining popularity as of late. Sherry talks about the pros/cons, how it works, and what situations are right for it to be applied. She also shares her own individual experience of trying the treatment.
Assignments are often used in teams and coaching relationships to give a quick snapshot of an individuals trends, characteristics and values. The Enneagram is a common psychometric assessment that has become widely available, in the form of books, courses, and products that help you learn more about yourself, team, and family. As a clinical psychologist, Sherry has some concerns about the ways these assignments are being used. Approaching this topic with experience in psychological testing she sheds light on the
subject as well as shares her own experiences taking some of these assignments herself.
In this episode Sherry interviews Craig Hewitt of Castos, about what its been like for him and his family to living abroad in France for the past 5 years, especially as the pandemic has changed community life around the world. They also talk about the growth of his company and the ways people are using podcasts to increase the strength of connections given the new challenges.
Rogue Startups Podcast
In this episode Sherry talks about a new addition to the family this year, their dog Gus. There are many studies linking mental health benefits to owning a dog, including providing a sense of companionship, connection, and combating loneliness. Sherry interviews her son about some of his favorite things he loves about having a dog.
In this episode Rob returns to the podcast to give some updates on what he has been working on. They discuss the expansion of MicroConf On-Air and his podcast (Startups For The Rest Of Us) as well as the progress being made on his new upcoming book. Sherry also gives updates on her journey finding a publisher for her new book.
Layout catch
Sherry talks about what she is learning running her business/professional life and through trapeze training. For her trapeze training is her play. Play is important to how she conceptualizes well being and mental health. Play helps people feel hopeful, helps people rest, and restores motivation. In this episode Sherry gives some lessons trapeze has taught her that can be applied to your business.
In this episode Sherry asks the question, how do people heal in the aftermath of terrible experiences? So many of us are in the process of trying to recalibrate and reorient after a time of major upheaval, and grief. Sherry shares a personal story that she hopes can provide insight and demonstrate some key components for healing.
Sherry talks with Emily Fletcher, the founder of Ziva Meditation and a leading expert in meditation for performance. They talk about Emily’s upcoming program zivaKIDS!, a new resource that helps kids learn to meditate.
zivaKIDS!
Sherry talks with David Burkus, author and former business school professor who holds a doctorate in strategic leadership, about his new book “Leading From Anywhere: The Essential Guide to Managing Remote Teams”. They discuss the opportunities of having a fully remote company, building culture remotely, tracking productivity and more.
David’s Book
Today’s episode is a throwback to a pair of previous episodes that focused on the practice of taking a founder’s retreat. A retreat is a foundational practice that really helps establish mental heath and clarity that can change the tone of your both personal and professional life.
Sherry’s Retreat Book
Sherry talks about the experience of having a conversation with a friend who holds a different political view. In that conversation they touched on all the hot topic issues happening in America today. Sherry identifies three components that made the exchange meaningful. Having trust, empathy, and humility is are the key components to finding our way back to having hard, meaningful conversations politically, personally and professionally.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry talks with Erik Kerr, founder of LifeTraq, about his companies approach to tackling mental health conditions including addiction through wearable technology. Erik explains the types of real-time data they collect, how to gamify it, and all the different applications for this technology.
LifeTraq
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
There is real value in just getting back to work and refusing the distractions. Sherry talks about the importance of getting back to work and not being shamed for it. Just trying to buckle down and do work amidst this huge disruption that is the pandemic.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
In the final episode of this year Sherry talks about the importance of both looking back and setting your sights on whats to come. The ability to shift energy into the future, set intentions, and build momentum is an important mental health tool. Since change is the only constant, you must be able to enter the mental practice of change. Sherry created and gave her family members a questionnaire to help them think through their desires for the coming year. She shares some of the questions and topics of discussion.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
In this episode Sherry is joined by her friend Alon, a Toronto based entrepreneur, to talk about holiday traditions & religious traditions and the value that they have had at different times in their lives. They explore the ways traditions we had as children can shape us as adults and professionals. They also discuss the changes they will make this year to their traditions due to the pandemic.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry talks about the death of Tony Hsieh, American internet entrepreneur,venture capitalist, and CEO of Zappos. Though she didn’t know him personally she followed his work and things he did outside of business. Sherry challenges the myth that if you have wealth and fame that you’re exempt from self destruction. The truth is no amount of financial wealth, prestige, success, relationship guarantees our immunity from self destruction. With suicide rates rising, its important to not walk around with the delusion that you don’t have that capacity. Tell the truth about it so you can make sure it stays dormant and these stories will hopefully make you aware and careful of the painful places that live inside of you.
Sherry and guest Jeff Banman have a conversation about the nature of trauma. Jeff is a former solider, CIA agent , and firefighter who has a lot of experience in the subject. They discuss Jeff’s idea of trauma/PTSD as a “love wound” versus an event, as well as early life trauma and why its so important.
Operational Mindset Foundation
JeffBanman.com
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry starts a new series of episodes, with co-host Alon, that provides guidance, support, and strategies for their community of entrepreneurial friends. They talk with friend Eric Rosenberg who struggles with his weight and has recently started a new diet program. Some of the things they touch include valuing yourself, self-discipline, finding balance, taking time and energy for self-care, and the history of trauma in your DNA and how it can affect the present.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
With the continued chaotic state of things and the US election thrown in the mix now, Sherry talks about the ways in which our bodies handle stress. The way we respond to stressors that are outside of our control is hardwired. When the body is overwhelmed it stops doing fight or flight and moves into numbing/detachment. Having done some new training in this area, Sherry is newly aware of the dangers of the numbing response. It feels good to detach in the short term but can present some dangers in the long run. She talks about how to observe what your body is doing and choose a counterbalance response.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry returns after a brief break from the podcast to talk about burnout. Having been feeling it herself she talks about the effects burnout can have on our neurological health and our bodies. While most people think burnout is the result of working too hard too long, it can also stem from a sense of hopelessness and meaninglessness. Sherry describes what symptoms to look for as well as some simple solutions.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry interviews Dr. Michael Freeman, a psychiatrist, psychologist, consultant and former CEO. Dr. Freeman has done extensive and ongoing research of collecting data on the mental health of entrepreneurs. In this conversation they talk about what he has learned over time in the mental health field about the entrepreneurial mindset. They discuss the biological and personality traits that are very common in entrepreneurs.
Research Project Survey
Touched with Fire Research Report
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Covid has forced parents into a unique situation in that whether you chose to home school your kids or not, its something everyone is now dealing with. Parents now have a higher demand on their time than ever before with this new model. Sherry and Rob talk about some of the best practices surrounding the challenge of how to help support kids in school/home-school/distance learning, while trying to maintain some level of professional productivity.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
In this episode Sherry interviews successful entrepreneur Aaron Houghton. Aaron started his first business at age 17 and sold two companies to private buyers for $169M before his 30th birthday. Despite all this success Aaron realized he still wasn’t happy and in fact the years of growing his businesses took a toll on his health as well. He suffered from panic attacks, debilitating anxiety, and a cancer diagnosis in 2009. This lead to him making some drastic changes to his life. He and Sherry talk about how personal happiness and business success are not interrelated the way we think and what to do about it.
www.foundersfirstsystem.com
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Wildfires, hurricanes, civil unrest, Sherry asks the question: “How do we keep going when the bad news seems endless”? There is a real importance of returning and re-grounding to what is controllable to each of us. This sense of specific targeting a deep connection to your own self is a really helpful counterbalance to the unsettling world around us. She talks about how to connect with your body and space and exercises to achieve this.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
After a brief break from the podcast to put the finishing touches on her upcoming book, Sherry returns to talk about the balance between our internal disciplinarian and nurturer. Leaning into our own self discipline is important right now because there is so much chaos and disruption in the world and in our personal lives. Organization, repetition, and execution is the model that allows us to be highly functional. As important as self discipline is, if its the only voice within us we listen to it can become problematic. To understand the toll work takes on us and create space for healing we must also listen to our internal nurturer as well.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
In these current times people are feeling nostalgia for a time before the pandemic, when you could give hugs, gather with friends, attend concerts, and just be in crowds. Looking back feels different than it did before covid as does looking toward the future. Sherry talks about mental health and our relationship with time. She explains how being future-past-and present oriented shapes how we relate to time and what it can mean for our well being.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Rob takes over the podcast this week. He talks about 5 things he’s learned from over 20 years of entrepreneurship in dealing with his own psychology. He admits to making much more mistakes on the personal side than the business side of things and hopes this episode can be of service to anyone juggling the demands of life and business.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry interviews Jonathan Stark, former software developer and author who is on a mission to rid the world of hourly billing. They discuss at length a book by Alfred Adler as it pertains to its application to entrepreneurs and mental health. The book talks about the basic theories that guide Adler’s work including the struggle between inferiority and superiority as well as social interest.
Alfred Alder Book
Jonathan Stark
Episode 144: A Conversation with Jonathan Stark
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Rob joins the podcast again to talk about his current endeavors. They talk about the effect the pandemic has had on the MicroConf conferences, TinySeed batch two updates, and overall stressors. They also discuss the idea of Rob entering a different phase of his career, from scrappy builder to more well established with a deeper foundation as a businessman. This leads Rob to reflect back on one of his mentors that helped shape him into the person he is today.
Rob’s Founder Origin Story
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
The current state of the world has caused a major shifts in our lives. There has been a shuffling of our businesses, financial situations, lively hoods, relationships and it has been leaving people feeling confused on what they want. Its a value question. what you do want? whats do you fight for? what will you leave behind? Not knowing the answers to these questions can leave you vulnerable to drift towards other peoples and/or entities desires. Knowing the answers to these questions is what can carefully keep you on track. Sherry explores the deeper meanings behind these questions.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
In this episode Sherry talks with Pam Sherman., who she met during a TEDWomen conference in which Sherry had been invited to speak. Pam is an attorney, actress, writer, and leadership consultant who teaches businesses and entrepreneurs how to be fully emotionally present within the context of their leadership. They have a in depth conversation on the importance of being an emphatic leader for your team in these unprecedented times.
thepamsherman.com
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry talks about change and the different types of change. Inside out change is change in our behavior because of our thoughts or feelings. Sometimes inside out change isn’t enough and that’s were outside in change and social pressure comes into play. This is the type of change we are seeing in the wake of George Floyd’s death. Sherry also reads an excerpt from her upcoming book about grief.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
As the smoke clears and the chaos subsides Minneapolis slowly starts to return to normal. However the message cannot be forgotten as it is too easy for the well off to pick back up their daily routines and just forget. Sherry talks about the issue of privilege and she shares some personal stories in which she benefited from her own privileges. As the country moves forward and changes for the better, its important to look within yourself, recognize your privileges, prepare for change, and call out the injustices being done to others.
In light of the tragic death of George Floyd, Minneapolis has erupted in protests and riots. This senseless loss of life from a psychological perspective causes grief, fear, and anger. A deep fracture of the basic sense of trust is at the heart of this type of turmoil. Losing trust in our leaders can lead to questions of safety. The fundamental question for us as entrepreneurs, as leaders, as humans, is how can we communicate our trustworthiness to others? Sherry answers this question by giving you the components of building trust.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
In this episode Sherry interviews the founder of The Hustle, Sam Parr. Sam shares his story which has a common theme of being able to shift and pivot as times change. Themes that really hold true today more than ever. They also explore the downside of “hustle”, what it costs to your personal or family life, and the importance of balancing “hustle” with mental health.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
In this episode Sherry talks about mothers, motherhood, entrepreneurship, mental health, and all the energy that goes into forming something or someone important. Mothers assume many different roles and shift back and forth between them in order to respond to what is needed. They are the original entrepreneurs, so take time to pause and notice and celebrate the mothers in our lives.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
This week Sherry interviews Dr. Dan Engle, a Psychiatrist and Neurologist who specializes in Transformational Medicine. He is someone who is at the forefront of emerging science of plant based medicines effectiveness in treating many kinds of mental health challenges. They talk at length about MDMA assisted psychotherapy and the breakthrough science around it.
Dr. Dan Engle
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
In this episode Sherry talks about a challenge living in this pandemic is finding a sense of calm inside ourselves when the environment around us is not. She takes you through a guided meditation exercise to bring calm to your brain, breath, and body.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
In this episode Sherry talks with entrepreneur, author, and speaker: Ronsley Vaz. He is the producer of the audio documentary, The Psychology of Entrepreneurship, in which he dives deep into the unique mindset, mental habits, and perspectives of successful entrepreneurs. In this conversation, Sherry and Ronsley talk about how his work to understand others has led him to a deeper understanding of himself.
Ronsley is the founder of Amplify, the world’s first audio marketing agency and the founder of the We Are Podcast event which will be hosted virtually in May.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
In this episode Sherry talks about the importance of shelter. Shelter is a place of safety and refuge. As the government mandated “shelter in place” is in full effect, Sherry explores the idea that shelter should also be solace and comfort in the things and people around us. Unfortunately not everyone feels safe in their home for many different reasons and a lack of safety in the place where you reside is one of the most disruptive human experiences. Sherry shares some key approaches to help reestablish safety in our homes, heads, and hearts.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
In this episode Sherry talks about the topic of grief. Grief is sadness, but grief is also when things are outside of our control and disrupt our plans or intentions. We are all currently experiencing this right now as the pandemic continues and grieving over our cancelled plans, sense of well-being, and restrictions to our freedom of movement. Despite all this, grief can spark passion, purpose, and advocacy and show us what is really important in life. Grief doesn’t mean roll over, stay stagnant and do nothing. You have to face it, you have to name it.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry talks about ways to self assess and check for symptoms of internal unrest. As the global pandemic continues, and we are faced with a situation were we have limited control over things there’s in impulse to go, buy, hoard. All emotions we hold is shared with family and can be highly contagious, specifically fear and anxiety. In these times you need to be comfortable with letting go of control to benefit your mental health and your family.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
As part of a MicroConf Connect live stream hosted by Rob Walling, Sherry talks about how to stay mentally healthy and productive in these unprecedented times. Managing expectations, the importance of play, giving yourself permission to work less hours are some of the topics she dives into in this episode.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
As the global pandemic of the COVID-19 virus continues to increase, Sherry talks about the importance of finding your own relative spot of internal stability among the chaos around us. Finding moments away from the noise and changing our exposure to the ever changing information can help us find calm. She gives some tools and tips to help turn down our body’s emergency response systems and restore clarity.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
In today’s episode, Sherry talks with software entrepreneur and Qigong healer Saud Juman. Saud tells his entrepreneurial and spiritual journey from the chaos of owning a night club in his twenties to completing 10 months of nocturnal solitude in order to find purpose. Once armed with his purpose he reveals how he entered the software world with a mission. Then ultimately how a martial arts injury lead him to find Qigong and how he became a healer.
Saud Juman
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry interviews Andrew Warner of Mixergy about running, money, mental, and grief. They discuss his accomplished goal of running a marathon in every continent, how he has improved as a businessman, and some personal changes that he’s experienced recently.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
In today’s episode, Sherry interviews Emily Fletcher, the founder of Ziva Meditation and author of Stress Less and Accomplish More. Emily make meditation accessible for busy folks and high performers. Their conversation covers 3 simple meditation strategies specifically designed for busy entrepreneurs. Emily also unveils her plans to create a medication course for children.
Ziva
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry talks with Marine Corps Veteran, speaker, adventurer, and entrepreneur, Akshay Nanavati. He talks about how life experiences come from engaging in the extremes of the human condition and that darkness isn’t something avoid but to be sought after in order to appreciate the light of life. After serving in the military he was diagnosed with PTSD, not satisfied with conventional treatments he started healing himself using hostile environments and pushing his own physical limits. From cave diving to climbing mountains, he used it as a form of therapy.
FEARVANA
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry talks with registered dietitian, author, and speaker Irene Pace, who with over 15 years of experience has been helping people think through how to eat well. Having had her own personal struggle with food in the past Irene has developed a unique way of approaching these issues and sees eating as an opportunity to practice mindfulness. She shares her steps to achieving a “nutrition reset” by identifying the types of hunger you experience and answering three simple questions.
Irenepace.ca
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry shares the results of a recent study that found a new intervention for some of the most complicated mental health problems we face as a society today. So what is this magical cure? If you think it comes in pill form then you would be wrong. It’s far simpler than that. It’s Exercise! Exercise as a treatment was able to help improve many of the most difficult conditions and yet it is a very uncommon diagnosis. Sherry explores the idea of changing the way her field of study approaches the mind-body connection.
Article referenced in this episode HERE.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry talks with motivational speaker Patrick Combs, about the important art of telling your own story. He believes that leaders should know their story and how to tell it because in business it can create trust.
Bliss Champions
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry experiences a close call while on vacation with her family. She slips off a suspension bridge, but thanks to her new found ninja skills (from aerial yoga), she’s able to grab a rope mid-air and avoid major injury. She uses the story as a reminder that as entrepreneurs the things we practice, the things we do repeatedly, will be available to us in a time of need. She also talks about the new year being a time for picking a theme of growth, and for her this year’s theme is focus: being more intentional and organized within her business.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
As the holiday season is upon us, Sherry reflects back on this past year. A year she describes for herself as being filled with darkness, grief, and loss. This has brought an awareness for a need for hope. She talks about participating in holiday traditions that mean something to you and some tips for those who aren’t feeling very joyful and merry this season.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
We don’t know what challenges and gifts life has in store, but we know that the ups and downs will come.
How do you enhance your ability to manage, embrace, battle, and cope with the tough stuff?
AND be someone who is constantly learning, growing and pressing in to an extraordinary and joyful life?
I’ve been thinking about these questions a lot.
And I like the term “capacity building” to describe the process of expanding both to cope with challenge and to build greater joy.
Robert Glazer has been thinking about capacity building for years. He’s a CEO and best-selling author. He also writes a weekly newsletter called Friday Forward which is one of the only newsletters that I actually read.
We had a great conversation about anxiety, parenting and his relentless commitment to expanding human capacity. We discuss his book, Elevate and the simple practices that are core to living a grounded yet optimized life.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Following MicroConf Europe, Sherry and Rob talk about the idea of having diversity of ideas and backgrounds at events (or in communities) and what roles leaders/organizers can play in welcoming diversity.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Coping with recent losses, sparked a curiosity about how people dive deep into challenging times. Sherry has also been doing a lot of research in different forms of healing and ways to process grief. This leads us to her most recent mediation practice of mixing breathing techniques, meditation, and the shooting of guns at a gun range. She talks about the lessons she carried away from the experience.
Sherry sits down with Adii Pienaar, fresh off of his exit from Conversio. They talk about how entrepreneur’s identities often become intertwined with their businesses and the importance of finding something outside of that. For Adii this is a love for poetry. He shares his journey of finding poetry and also shares some of his work.
Adii’s book “Motion”
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
In honor of mental health awareness day, Sherry tells the story of her brother’s suicide 5 months ago. In an intensely personal episode, she talks about the isolation that this type of loss can cause, the struggle to maintain her business during this season of disruption, and trying to grapple with her own mental health in the wake of this loss.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry talks about the life enhancing power a good hobby can have. At a time of grief from the loss of family members, her own hobby aerial sling, helped her cope and balance herself. Sherry also discusses how hobbies outside of work can help sustain and protect our mental health.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Video of an Aerial Sling performance by Sherry
Sherry talks with ZenFounder team member Brooke Bergman, a licensed marriage and family therapist, about specific problems that entrepreneurial couples face as well as introducing the idea of “erotic energy” and how it can be properly used in the business and in the relationship.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
As the seasons begin to change from summer to fall it brings new sets of challenges. Not everyone likes change or deals with it the same. These changes in an entrepreneur’s life could be a key employee leaving, adding new teams members, etc. In this episode Sherry stresses the importance of anticipating change with a sense of calm.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry interviews Jordan Axani of Shift Collab, about his journey into the mental health space. During a time in which he was part of a viral internet story and had high momentum professionally, personally he was at a low. He talks about how a TED Talk invitation changed his outlook and focused his energy towards mental awareness.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry talks with Alda Karen of MINDX, about how she has taken her own battle with chronic depression and turned it into a tool to help others with their mental health. Her unique approach incorporates virtual reality to help train the mind.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Using the example of Mister Rodgers taking off his suit jacket and work shoes when he gets home in exchange for a sweater and casual shoes in the intro of Mister Rodgers Neighborhood, Sherry talks about shifting versions of yourself. How what works with your business self will not translate to your home/family self and how to help make those transitions successful to meet the different needs of each.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry interviews successful entrepreneur, Kelsey Ramsden about life after success. Even after you’ve reached every milestone, and accomplished every goal, there still may be a feeling of emptiness. They explore how successful entrepreneurs answer the what’s next question.
Check out Kelsey’s book: Success Hangover
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry talks about some of the common kinds of loss that entrepreneurs face both in their professional and business lives. She discusses the importance of grieving those losses and steps to take to grieve in a healthy way.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry interviews Jason Fried of Basecamp, about some of the ways his remote company helps team members connect with each other. They also discuss other topics including burnout, sleep, what does calm mean to him, and how he has maintained a long term business partnership.
Love this conversation? Check out Jason’s latest book. It Doesn’t Have to be Crazy at Work.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Episode transcript:
Rob Walling:
In this week’s episode of ZenFounder, Sherry interviews none other than Jason Fried of Basecamp. It’s a really good interview. Sherry talks to Jason about all manner of things ranging from family life, to building a company slowly and deliberately. One thing that I really like about Jason is just how genuine he is. He really doesn’t have anything to hide. I met him for the first time in person at MicroConf just a few months ago. And I was struck by just how normal he is given his amazing success with Basecamp and his numerous New York Times bestsellers and everything he’s accomplished in his life. We just had a conversation about life, and about kids and family, and where we lived and just normal day to day things. And I liked that he was real and that carried on to the stage.
I hosted a moderated Q&A where I asked him questions about his history in growing Basecamp and what he thinks of bootstrapping today, and all kinds of stuff. And he just answered the questions. That sounds so simple, but so much of the time when you are around people who have had success, especially in certain circles, I’ll say startup circles are notorious for this. People are puffing up their chests and they’re saying things that make them look good, or they come up with this, you know, a theory so that they can name it after themselves or something. Or you see someone on a panel and you know that their business isn’t doing great and they’re saying all these things like they know everything. That’s not what MicroConf is about, and B, that’s not what Jason was about at all. He was just about talking from his experience, and that’s something that I really respect about him and others who I know who are successful, but they let their success talk for them. They don’t sit there and trumpet it themselves.
And so with that, let’s get started with the interview. I think you’ll enjoy it as much as I did.
Sherry Walling:
Welcome to the ZenFounder podcast. This is a place where we have conversations about mental health and entrepreneurship. We have a pretty broad conceptualization of what mental health means. Sometimes depression, anxiety, sometimes relationships or physical health. The goal here is to bring some calm into the crazy rollercoaster of ups and downs that is life for many entrepreneurs. I’m your host, I’m Dr. Sherry walling. I’m a clinical psychologist and an entrepreneur, married to an entrepreneur, live in the world of entrepreneurs, and I’m so pleased that you have joined us for this conversation.
Sherry Walling:
So, I gave a talk at a conference about a year ago and at the end of the conference people were sharing their take home and they were like, “What did you get out of these two days of content? And it made me feel good, but a number of people were like, “Sherry’s talk about sleep is the thing I’m going to take home from this $2,500 conference that I invested in for my business.” And I spent 20 minutes talking about the importance of sleep for having a sound mind that works well at work.
Rob makes his return to the podcast to reflect on his 19 year marriage with Sherry. They talk about the changes they have gone through over the years and how entrepreneurship played a part in that. Rob also gives an update on his new venture TinySeed and how his mindset has grown this time around.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry interview Chris Savage, CEO/Co-Founder of Wistia about his decision not to sell his business. They discuss his approach to leadership, company values, and prioritizing the maintenance health business relationships within the company.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry interviews psychiatrist Dr. Henry Emmons, about his unique approach to his clinical work by integrating natural/holistic methods and therapies. They talk specifically about the problems of depression, anxiety, and addiction, and ways to help using mindfulness and diet.
Natural Mental Health
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry talks about identity management in entrepreneurship, specifically the interplay of entrepreneurship and distinctiveness. She discusses how being distinct is part of the entrepreneurial experience but at the same time it can also make belonging difficult.
Birds of a feather don’t always flock together: Identity management in entrepreneurship
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry interviews psychologist Dr. Doug Brackmann about the characteristics of driven people. They talk about vulnerability to self-sabotage and discuss strategies for identifying and preventing self-sabotage. They also talk about his unique approach to meditation that involves long range shooting.
www.drdougbrackmann.com
Want more content like this? Check out our strategies to accelerate your relationship: Date Night Boot Camp for Entrepreneurs.
Sherry talks about trying to find a balance between the individual voice and cohesive functioning and how it can be a challenge for growing companies. As Rob has continued to ramp up his recent venture TinySeed, she discusses ways she takes a supportive role as a spouse and sounding board to help handle things like negative feedback.
Want more content like this? Check out our strategies to accelerate your relationship: Date Night Boot Camp for Entrepreneurs.
Sherry talks with Robert Plotkin, founder of Technology for Mindfulness, about how technology and mindfulness relate to the lives of busy entrepreneurs. He discusses how his martial arts background taught him to “pause” and to use thought to help limit the distraction technology can pose in our daily lives.
Want more content like this? Check out our strategies to accelerate your relationship: Date Night Boot Camp for Entrepreneurs.
In this episode Sherry talks about some strategies that help with negative emotional states. She discusses some easy and straight-forward tools that can help reset your body and mind. Some of the strategies mentioned include deep breathing exercises and the benefits of sensory walks.
Want more content like this? Check out our strategies to accelerate your relationship: Date Night Boot Camp for Entrepreneurs.
In part 2 of Sherry’s interview with Tucker Max, they talk about his career changes and the pursuit of finding the right kind of therapy. He talks specifically about his experience with MDMA psychotherapy and how it has helped him deal with his history of trauma.
Want more content like this? Check out our strategies to accelerate your relationship: Date Night Boot Camp for Entrepreneurs.
In this two-part interview, Sherry talks with Tucker Max, the author of four books that hit #1 on the NY Times best seller list and the co-founder of Scribe.
Phenomenal success, fame, partying, sex, and even a movie about his life didn’t yield the fulfillment that he sought. On his quest for satisfaction and health he explored a number of mainstream and alternative therapies–psychoanalysis, EMDR, medication, work with a shaman. His recent experience with MDMA-assisted psychotherapy was game-changing.
MDMA-assisted psychotherapy is not widely available (or legal); however, it is a form of therapy that is being fast-tracked for FDA approval and is currently in the third round of clinical trials.
Want more content like this? Check out our strategies to accelerate your relationship: Date Night Boot Camp for Entrepreneurs.
On this 200th episode of ZenFounder, Sherry reflects back on her favorite episodes. She talks about how one of her MicroConf talks sparked the idea for the podcast, her mission to normalize the discussion of mental health among the founder community, and what the future holds for ZenFounder.
Want more content like this? Check out our strategies to accelerate your relationship: Date Night Boot Camp for Entrepreneurs.
Sherry talks with David Henzel of Taskdrive about the competing forces of love and fear. Both of these forces can affect how you run your businesses as well as your personal lives. Sherry and David also touch on strategies for planning out family life and business throughout the course of the new year.
Want more content like this? Check out our strategies to accelerate your relationship: Date Night Boot Camp for Entrepreneurs.
DavidHenzel.com
In this episode Sherry talks with Jason Glaspey of Mostly Proud Parents about holiday traditions and the unrealistic expectations they can put on parents. As the holidays are a time for family gatherings and giving thanks, it can also be a time for heightened levels of stress. Sherry and Jason share some stories about family traditions/activities gone wrong.
Want more content like this? Check out our strategies to accelerate your relationship: Date Night Boot Camp for Entrepreneurs.
Sherry talks with Mike Jackness of EcomCrew about the different stages of business/life that he has experienced over the past 15 years. Their conversation covers burnout, the gifts and challenges of working with his wife in the business, and how his personal proprieties have evolved over the years.
Date Night Boot Camp
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
The holiday season is a time for the gathering of friends/family, but it can also be a time for increased stress and conflict. In this episode Sherry and Rob give a full audio preview of Date #3 of their six part Date Night Bootcamp Video Series. In this preview they talk about how to deal with conflict with your spouse/partner in a healthy way.
Date Night Bootcamp
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry talks about the importance of family movie nights. How in the day of smartphones, tablets, and other devices we lose the opportunity to share an experience together. The family movie night can remedy this by being together and all having a shared experience and the ability to talk about it, and reference it. She interviews her kids about what they like most about movie nights and the benefits.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry talks about the recent passing of her father after his long battle with cancer. She shares the details of his brave journey and how it affected her and the rest of the family. She also discusses how we can play a care-taking role for our parents as they move toward the end of life, as they did for us in the beginning as small children.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Rob does a solo episode and brings you some of his favorite productivity hacks. He talks in depth about how he approaches his to-do list, mentioning some of the specific software tools he uses and the thought behind it.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry talks with Cory Miller, founder of iThemes, about handling transitions while in a leadership role. In the midst of his company being acquired, Cory dives into how he handled the potential change both personally and professionally, all while trying to remain a good leader to his employees.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Cory Miller
Sherry talks with Jake Tyler, who made it a mission of his to walk across all of Great Britain in an effort to not only help his own depression but to also raise awareness and money for the Mental Health Foundation. Jake talks about when he began to feel depression, thoughts of suicide, and the sanctity the great outdoors provided him.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Jake’s Blog
Jake’s Instagram
In this episode Sherry and Rob talk about his next business venture since exiting Drip. He opens up about what exactly the business will be, how the origin of the idea began, and how it fits into his interests of helping bootstrapped entrepreneurs.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
RobWalling.com/fund
Sherry and Rob talk about how to form and grow relationships. As with most people demands and responsibilities take up most of the day, whether it be work or family. This leaves less time to maintain friendship/relationships as well as grow new ones. This episode has plenty of food for thought to help you along the way.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry interviews Ryan Williams, an entrepreneur, writer, and founder of Influencer Economy. Ryan talks about his early career working for companies, being under-appreciated, and often having others take credit for his work. He discusses his mission with his own media company, what being a stand-up comedian has taught him about entrepreneurship, and how he has helped change the way the startup community talks about depression in public.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Some research has suggested 40 is a low point in life satisfaction. Sherry and Rob share some both positive and negative reflections about this mid-life point to help people understand that it is a normal part of life.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry interviews John Lanza, creator of The Money Mammals, about teaching kids about money. He talks about the three jars (share, spend, save), how to implement an effective allowance system that teaches lessons, and the goals of having “money smarts” and “money empowerment”.
The Art of Allowance
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry and Rob have a conversation about kids and mental health. They talk about the role a parent can play to help your kids deal with stressors, how physical and mental health correspond to each other, when to seek professional help, and more.
Child Mind Institute
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry interviews Carlos Saba and Laurence McCahill of The Happy Startup School, about their mission to create a new breed of entrepreneurs that put happiness before profits. They discuss their career paths before The Happy Startup School, what inspired them to create it, and where they’d like to see it go in the future.
The Happy Startup School Summercamp
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry interviews Patrick Campbell of ProfitWell, about his origin story. Patrick talks about growing up in the mid-west, the positive influence his mentors/teachers had on him, his inner struggle with inferiority, and his battles with cancer.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry interviews Sheryle Gillihan, CEO of CauseLabs, about her founder origin story. Sheryle talks about the confidence instilled in her by her mother, how she was given opportunities throughout her career by other women in power, and why non-profit work is her passion.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
At the halfway point of the Founder Origin Stories series, Sherry and Rob take a break to give you their mid-summer updates on whats been going on in their lives. They discuss some of the highs/lows so far including buying a new house, Rob’s views on his professional future, and family matters.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry interviews Joe Evangelisti, a successful real estate investor, about his formative years. Joe talks about as a kid working along side his father in his construction business and learning the values of hard work. They discuss his experiences in the Navy and finally after building a successful business what he finds new and exciting.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry interviews Chris Yates of the Rhodium Weekend, about his founder origin story. He talks about how his parents shaped both his entrepreneurial and creative side, how he views himself as a leader, and the head vs. heart dilemma.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry interviews Natalie Nagele of Wildbit, about her origin story as a young entrepreneurial woman in the tech space. They talk about the strong qualities she learned from her immigrant parents and the dynamics of working with your spouse.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Continuing the Founder Origin Stories Series, Sherry interviews Rich Staats of Secret Stache. Rich talks about his early entrepreneurial projects and how he left a steady job to pursue them. They also talk about how he developed a drinking problem and what he did it overcome it.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
The Founder Origin Stories series returns. The 2018 kick-off episode is with Sol Orwell, cookie connoisseur and co-founder of Examine.com. In this conversation, Sol shares about his early years, his choice of name, and his passion for charity work.
For more on Sol, keep up with him on www.sjo.com. While you’re learning his favorite cookie recipe and researching his net worth, don’t forget to ask yourself this all important question: Is Sol Orwell the most handsome guy in Toronto?
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Rob shares his experience attending a small in-person mastermind group. He talks about the pros and cons as well as 8 steps to approaching an event like this.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry talks with Jen Dary, who helps companies build better relationships among their co-workers through her company Plucky. They discuss Jen overcoming a brain tumor, the importance of play, and adult development.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry and Rob talk about how to make difficult decisions as a family. They break down in seven steps how to tackle a big decision that affects the whole family based on the process they used for a recent big decision they had to make themselves.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
A psychologist and a psychiatrist give listeners a behind-the-scenes viewpoint into the world of mental health care.
In this episode Dr. Sherry talks with psychiatrist Dr. Jeff Clark of Slumber Camp about suicidal thoughts, the role of medication in treating mental health, self-harm, psychiatric emergencies, and hospitalizations.
We are hoping that open conversations about tough topics might decrease the stigma of asking for help.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry interviews Ryan Hawk of The Learning Leader Show, about the nature of leadership and what qualities make a good leader. Ryan has interviewed many great leaders as part of his podcast and talks about some of the most profound moments he has had.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry talks with Rob about her current trip to Nicaragua where she talked to a community about how to help people who have experienced extreme trauma. They touch on the current civil unrest that is happening there and why Sherry still made the decision to go and help.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
In this episode Sherry interviews Brad Hart of Make More Marbles. Brad talks about his unfulfillment once he reached a certain level of success and how he found his purpose in helping others achieve success and building relationships.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
In this episode Sherry talks about how to give feedback/critiques in a helpful way. There are things you can ask yourself before you give feedback and to remember there is always a human being behind each business. With so many interactions happening online these things can get lost and often come across as negative.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry interviews Tony Perez about the transition from running his own business to becoming an employee of a larger corporation. Tony talks about some of the benefits he has experienced in the corporate setting but also talks about how the desire to start something from the ground up still exists in him.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Change is in the air. In today’s episode Sherry and Rob talk about Rob’s recent departure from Drip. He discusses his emotional journey and reflects back on all that Drip has accomplished.
Want more content like this? Check out our book.
Sherry talks about the subject of grief. As part of business life you will experience losses, could be the loss of a key business partner or a failed product. Grief is an emotional response to loss and Sherry talks about ways to deal with it in a healthy way.
Want more great content like this? Check out our book.
What secret sauce can make or break you as a founder? The ability to write.
The ability to communicate your ideas is a key part of establishing yourself in any business space.
In this episode of ZenFounder, we think about how to cultivate a love of writing in our kids. Rob and Sherry talk about the importance and benefits of teaching kids the love of writing. Sherry interviews both of her boys about books they have written and talks with fellow entrepreneurial parent, Melissa Lema, about her family’s approach to encouraging writing.
Fisher’s new book can be found at:
www.myturtlebook.com
Want more great content like this? Check out our book.
Continuing the founders in nature series, a series about the value of being in the outdoors, Sherry interviews Mendel Kurland. Mendel started the group: Hiking with Geeks, and he shares his inspiration for the groups creation.
Adventures with Geeks
Sherry interviews Chris Badgett of LifterLMS about the value of nature for entrepreneurs. He shares how he has integrated nature into his life and how it supports his success as an entrepreneur.
Support ZenFounder
Sherry and Rob talk about the benefits of spending one on one time with your children. How mixing up typical family interactions can allow for more in depth conversations with less distractions.
Support ZenFounder
How do you help someone who is struggling with depression, burnout, loss or anxiety? It isn’t always easy to know how to help, especially if you’re not a trained professional. In this episode, Sherry talks with Boston-area founder, Dale Bertrand, about how to help friends and fellow-founders who are struggling.
The Entrepreneur’s Guide to Keeping your Sh*t Together
Sherry and Rob talk about mental illness. Sherry defines the basics of what mental illness actually is using the 3 D’s (dysfunction,deviant, distress). They discuss how in the short term it can be founder of everyone’s founder experience at some point in time.
Support ZenFounder
The Entrepreneur’s Guide to Keeping Your Sh*t Together: How to Run Your Business Without Letting it Run You
Sherry interviews Rand Fishkin, co-founder of Moz, and SparkToro about the mental struggles of running a business. He talks about the importance of de-stigmatizing depression among the founder community and his own struggle to fight his way back after a severe bought with depression.
Rand’s book Lost and Founder pairs wonderfully with the Entrepreneur’s Guide to Keeping Your Sh*t Together.
Sherry interviews Kim Witczak about the loss of her husband Woody. He was in the early stages of a startup and began to experience trouble sleeping. The story unfolded in the worst possible way. Kim talks about what she wished she had known about the mental health challenges common to those in the early phase of a start-up.
Kim Witczak is a leading national drug safety advocate and speaker with over 25 years professional experience in advertising and marketing communications. She became involved in pharmaceutical drug safety issues after the death of her husband. Kim was appointed Consumer Representative on the FDA Psychopharmacologic Drug Advisory Committee in 2016 and is on the Board of Directors of National Physicians Alliance. She is an active member of the Consumers Union Safe Patient Project and Lown Institute Community Engagement and Behavior Health council and as well as a part of the DC-based Patient, Consumer, and Public Health Coalition making sure the voice of non-conflicted patients and consumers is represented in healthcare/FDA related legislative issues.
Woody Matters
Sherry announces the release of the ZenFounder Book, The Entrepreneur’s Guide to Keeping Your Sh*t Together: How to Run Your Business Without Letting It Run You. Thank you for the support and look forward to the feedback.
Support ZenFounder
ZenFounder Book
Inspired by his blog post about depression, Sherry interviews Zach Holman about life as a founder struggling with mental illness. They talk about what depression felt like and how he finally recognized the severity of his situation. Zach also shares about what has helped him recover.
ZachHolman.com
Episode Transcript
| Sherry: | Woo-hoo, next Wednesday is the big day. The Entrepreneur’s Guide to Keeping Your Together. How to Run Your Business Without Letting it Run You is coming out on the 21st, next Wednesday. So Zen Founder listeners, please, please, if you go and buy the book, it would be fantastic if you would leave a review on Amazon. We are wanting to put this book in as many hands as possible because we are really hopeful that it’s helpful. We’ve put together some of our most helpful tips and tried and true strategies to mitigate some of the emotional challenge that goes along with being a founder. And we’ve tried to package that all in a book that’s easy to read and easy to use. | | Today’s episode is an interview that I did a while back with Zach Holman. He is a solo founder and previously worked at GitHub, so he has had quite a life in the tech world. Last October, he wrote a blog on his website, ZachHolman.com, called The Depression Thing. And I came across it and found it to be one of the better descriptions of the depression experience that I have read online. And I was really glad that he took the time to talk to me about it. | | And stories like Zach’s are the why behind why we do what we do at Zen Founder. We want to normalize conversations about mental illness. We want to let founders know that it is totally normal to struggle. That’s typical. And that there are lots of things that can be done to help. So the podcast, the book, my consulting work, all of that is designed to let founders know that there are resources and support available for the emotional and mental ups and downs that inherently go along with the challenge of starting and running a business. | | I hope Zach’s story gives you an opportunity for commiseration, but also some ideas about how you can keep your own mental game song. If you like what we’re doing or you have suggestions for episodes or topics you’d like us to tackle, then feel free to be in touch. You can reach out to me, Sherry@ZenFounder.com. That’s Sherry like the wine. S-H-E-R-R-Y. Thanks so much for listening. | | Sherry: | Well thanks, Zach, for taking the time to talk with me today. I came across your recent post about depression I think while I was on vacation in Mexico. And it was just one of those things that I stopped what I was doing and read it, and read it again, and read it really carefully. Because it was such a great description of the play-by-play of how you A) had to figure out what was happening to you, and gave it a label, and then tried to figure out what to do about it. | | So I think that kind of candor is pretty rare in the tech world, and I really appreciate you being willing to put it out there, because we know that a lot of people who are entrepreneurs or people in the tech world are experiencing it, but not a lot of folk are talking about it. | | Zach: | Thanks, and thanks for having me on. Pretty excited to talk about this, ironically enough, I guess. If you can be excited about talking about depression. | | Sherry: | I think you can, because it’s important. It’s mea |
Sherry talks about the challenge of maintaining a healthy, happy sexual connection in the midst of the founder life. It is easier said than done. Much of sex is about psychology–the activities of your brain rather than the action in your pants. Sherry describes some recent science about the dual control model of sexual response. She also gives listeners suggestions and tools to help have important conversations about what is happening in the bedroom.
In today’s episode: Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski, PhD
Episode Transcript
| Sherry Walling: | Hey, guys, it’s Sherry here. I’m going solo this week. Rob is in San Francisco at Sasser, so I am holding down the fort at home and on the podcast. One of the things that I’d like to talk about this week, I guess somewhat ironically because my husband’s out of town, is to talk a little bit about sex and the role that it plays, the important role that it plays in the life of a couple. I’d like to talk about some of the challenges that I’ve talked about with founders and their significant others, specifically related to this part of their life. | | This is not, by any means, a graphic conversation, but it is an adult conversation so if you’re listening with munchkins or kiddos in the car or around you, you might wanna table this for a time when you can think grown up thoughts. Before we get started, a couple of announcements. The book launch is scheduled for February 21, so, those of you who are on the prelaunch list, you’re gonna get a series of emails reminding you about that date, inviting you to some early discounted prices and letting you know all about our new book, the Entrepreneurs Guide to Keeping your Bleep Together: How to Run your Business Without Letting it Run You. | | So if you are interested in what’s happening with the book, or thinking about picking up a copy, definitely hop over to ZenFounder.com and get on the mailing list so you can get some of the perks and discounts and stuff that will go along with our virtual launch party. I also wanted to let folks know that I will be speaking at Word Camp Miami, in Miami, in the middle of March. March 16 to 18. I’ll be part of a business track on Sunday morning that looks like it’s going to be really fantastic, so if you are in the Miami are or are a WordPress fan, it would be fun to see you there. Similarly, I will be in Sacramento on April 21 for the Elevate Leaders conference. This is a conference that’s all about mental health and well being for entrepreneurs and founders for really business leaders of all kinds. If you are interested in attending that event, or if you are in the Sacramento area, email me and I have some generous discount codes. Get in touch with me, Sherry@ZenFounder.com and I will be happy to pass those along to you, Zen Founder listeners. | | Sherry Walling: | Okay, so, Valentine’s day is just around the corner and whether or not this is an important romantic event in your particular couple hood, it seems like a good time to talk about some relationship related topics. Last week, Rob and I talked about the essential question of relationships, “Will you be there when I need you?” We talked a little bit about attachment and interdependence and some of the things that both studies and relationship experience show can be absolutely essential in making sure you maintain a strong connection. So, if you missed that one, go back, listen to it. | | To |
Sherry and Rob reveal their plans for their first course (FounderFamily: Date Night Bootcamp) and talk about some of the ups/downs and unique challenges entrepreneurial couples face.
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Rob: | So the book The Entrepreneurs Guide to Keeping Your [beep] Together currently in the process of being converted to Kindle and we already obviously the manuscript’s finish. We got a proof of the book printed out, or you know, a full print copy. Cover looks great. Kindle is in the works. We already recorded the audio version. We can’t upload that until Amazon had … this and that, so it just seems to be one more week waiting on something. | | During that time we are prepping our first course. It’s called Founder Family Date Night Bootcamp. I know you’re putting a ton of time into research and writing. We don’t have a landing page yet but if you’re interested in what is essentially gonna be a video course with other materials of Sherry and I talking through how to stay connected with your spouse, your significant other, through date nights and through being deliberate because as founders, if we’re not deliberate we can go months just thinking about our business, and not paying attention to the people around us, the people that matter. So, it’s gonna be a look at how to stay connected through date nights. We will send updates via the mailing list. If you’re not on it, zenfounder.com and you’ll see the cool little Drip widget in the upper right. | | Sherry: | Yeah, you can tell I’m in deep work because my desk is a mess. | | Rob: | It’s a train wreck. | | Sherry: | I have piles of books. I have Hold Me Tight by Sue Johnson. The Five Love Languages, of course. Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. I have like, 10 books on my desk and then I have four mugs, three water glasses, one martini glass, four takeaway coffee cups. It’s like a bar/library all on my desk. | | Rob: | I was cleaning up the office this week and … this weekend and tidying mine up, and I turned and looked at yours, and it was like a scene in a movie. The record skipped, and I just pretty much just backed out of the office. Just- | | Sherry: | Just walk away, walk away man. | | Rob: | Not gonna touch that. | | Sherry: | I have read some people post things on social media that say that studies show that messy people are smart. Or like, messiness is correlated with intelligence, but I have not read the original research, so I probably should not be spreading pop culture lies. | | Rob: | Right, you’re quoting the internet as your source. | | Sherry: | I did that. I did that. Let the record reflect that I did that. | | So anyway, all these books and drinking glasses have meant that I’ve been thinking a lot about couple life. Particularly trying to think about the unique experiences that entrepreneurial couples face, and some of the unique challenges that make family life trickier for those of us who are starting and running our own businesses. I think, we know that there are some mental health uniqueness’s and some value and existential differences in the way that entrepreneur’s view their lives, and I do think there are also some significant defenses in family life. | | That’s where I’m trying to think through, and iron out, and IR |
Rob does a solo episode talking about productivity. Specifically how to have more output without more effort. The episode surrounds three books he recommends on the topic as well as some bonus book recommendations on investing.
Support ZenFounder
Sleep Smarter
Deep Work
The Productivity Project
Sherry and Rob talk about the importance of having hard conversations and how to do it well. They break down the process and discuss how to prepare to have these conversations, things to be mindful of during these kinds of conversations, and how to end the conversations.
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Sherry Walling: | So, I see that you made your Zencastr name Captain Macho. | | Rob Walling: | I just [inaudible 00:00:09] wouldn’t accept Rob tonight so I had to make something up. | | Sherry Walling: | Wow, it’s going to be an interesting night. So, a night recording. We almost never night record. | | Rob Walling: | It’s because they go off the rails, things go catastrophic. People unsubscribe and rage quit. | | Sherry Walling: | People rage quit our podcast. Well, it was Martin Luther King, Jr. Day this week and the kids were off school, so our normal Monday recording time didn’t really work. This is going to be a hoot because it’s late at night because we’re tired. | | Rob Walling: | The kids are in bed but not asleep, and we’re just a little loopy. Not super loopy, but loopy enough that it’s going to be a good evening. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah, I don’t know about you, but I’m feeling very experimental tonight. | | Rob Walling: | Oh, yeah? | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah. I mean, this is going to blow your mind. Are you ready? | | Rob Walling: | Yes. | | Sherry Walling: | I put chocolate soy milk in my mint tea. | | Rob Walling: | Whoa! | | Sherry Walling: | I know, right? | | Rob Walling: | Mind blown. | | Sherry Walling: | I was sort of hoping it would taste like- | | Rob Walling: | Chocolate mint? | | Sherry Walling: | Chocolate mint candies. | | Rob Walling: | That was not what I thought you were going to say, but okay. That’s great. | | Sherry Walling: | What were you hoping I would say? | | Rob Walling: | Just that we were going to experiment with a new podcast format. | | Sherry Walling: | Okay, let’s talk about podcasts. | | Rob Walling: | It’s going to be good. | | Sherry Walling: | Speaking of marital bliss, that was an awesome transition. We are putting together the framework for a course that will be about founder families, and how to be awesome at your business and how to stay connected to the people that you care about. | | Rob Walling: | Right, and it’s not just a framework, it’s going to be an actual course to help people … is it loved ones or is it significant others? | | Sherry Walling: | It’s significant others. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, so this one is not about kids, but if you have a boyfriend/girlfriend, a spouse, significant other, a partner of any kind it’s how to run your business and also stay connected with that person. It’s a framework blueprint. It’s a course to help you do that better. | | Sherry Walling: | And my intention i |
Sherry interviews Ryan Tansom of Life After Business podcast about the experience selling of his business. They discuss the process and pain he went through and the way those tough experiences spawned his new business. He’s built a second act aimed at helping entrepreneurs make their exit a success.
Ryan’s website, My Solidity
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Rob Walling: | Welcome to this weeks episode of ZenFounder. Two announcements before we get started. The first is that this week is the last week to sign up for the current Zen Tribe. If you go to zenfounder.com/zentribes you can get more information but Zen Tribes are groups of 6 to 8 entrepreneurs who commit to meeting weekly for eight weeks. Sherry leads you remotely via, I think it’s Zoom these days and offers the place, people, time, and guidance to tackle the unique struggles and challenges that you experience as an entrepreneur. So if you feel like you need some community with other founders, like you’re out there floating on your own, and you need to connect with other folks and kind of be guided into that next phase of entrepreneurship, now is the time to head to zenfounder.com/zentribes | | In addition, the book is coming out very soon. The book is The Entrepreneurs Guide to Keeping Your [inaudible 00:00:53] Together. How To Run Your Business Without Letting It Run You. And the book is about learning how to master your stress, dismiss your fears, and rapidly accelerate your business growth. So it’s a lot of what we talk about here on ZenFounder and a lot that we haven’t talked about. It’s so much of the knowledge and wisdom that Sherry and I have learned from interviewing founders, being founders ourselves, and from Sherry’s deep knowledge of what it takes and the stress that surrounds being a founder. So if you haven’t signed up zenfounder.com/book will get you to the book landing page. I would highly encourage you to check it out because we’re going to be launching in the next few weeks. There’s a print version, there’s going to be a kindle version, audio version, all the things you want and you want to be first on that list to hear about it. | | And finally, this weeks episode of ZenFounder is Sherry interviewing Ryan Tansom of The Life After Business podcast. It’s a great interview and I hope you enjoy it. | | Sherry Walling: | Well Ryan it is so great to have you on the show. Thanks for taking the time to talk with me. And we met at Rhodium Weekend last fall, which was a great conference. Both you and I were part of the speaking docket that year and unfortunately I didn’t get to hear your talk. But I got to talk with you enough to know that I want to talk with you more. So it’s been fun to get to know you a little bit since we are both Minneapolis based. | | Ryan Tansom: | Yeah, I’m glad I’m on the show. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah! So I am excited to learn more about your story and talk about the process of reinventing yourself a couple different times as a professional, even at a young age. So, maybe we could start out just by giving us the kind of the short version of these two companies that you have been deeply part of. One you sold and one you’re now starting from scratch. So what’s the quick road map of your life of a professional so far? | | Ryan Tansom: | Keep it brief, right? My dad |
Sherry talks with Renee Warren of The Family Academy, about how she and her husband, Dan Martell, have structured their two-founder family. With two on-fire careers and two kiddos, it takes some strategizing to create space for everyone in the family to flourish (and also stay connected).
Episode Transcript
| Sherry Walling: | Hi everybody, Happy New Year! So excited that it is 2018 and that 2017 is a thing of the past. We are cooking up some great things for the year ahead. | | One of the things that Rob and I are going to do is be more in touch with our email list. So if you are interested in kind of inside stories about some of the topics that we cover on ZenFounder or if you want to learn more about what we’re doing, where we’re speaking, where we’re gonna be showing up, we are working hard to bring some value to your inbox, just a couple times a month. Like two to three emails a month is what we’re going for. So if that’s something that you would like to have happen, feel free to sign up. It’s on our website at ZenFounder.com. And it’s low-risk. If you are irritated or you feel we’re emailing too much, you just unsubscribe. | | One other thing that is happening right now is that we are forming a January Zen Tribe. If you are wanting to kick off 2018 by connecting with some other entrepreneurs, some other people who are curating their own lives by starting their own businesses, tribes are a group of about eight entrepreneurs, usually from different kinds of backgrounds, and it’s kind of an 8 week bootcamp of wellness and mental health and friendship. And we meet weekly for eight weeks. We usually schedule some breaks in there. It has been a really beneficial experience for the people that have gone through it. So if you have questions about Zen Tribe feel free to hit me at up at Sherry@ZenFounder.com. | | So today we’re gonna talk about starting a new year well, particularly when it comes to thinking about how to set good goals as a family. How to evaluate your family’s well-being and health and then implement strategies to keep a family going strong. And my guest today is Renee Warren. She is a brilliant, determined, realist. She’s the former founder of a popular startup PR firm called Onboardly. She’s written hundreds of articles and ebooks on startup marketing and has helped people get on TV shows and magazines and blogs. | | Right now she is on a mission to help entrepreneur families gain more freedom in their lives. She is launching something called the Family Academy. And she knows this stuff inside and out. In addition to working professionally with many, many startup founders, she’s also married to Dan Martell, who’s been a guest on this show before, who among other things is the founder of Clarity. So she’s been on this journey both herself, and as a spouse, and as a professional. Sort of sounds familiar. | | Anyway, Renee lives in Canada with her husband and two boys and she and I have a fabulous conversation and I am excited to share it with you today. | | Sherry Walling: | So I am really excited to be talking to you today. And in addition to you being a force in your own right, as somebody who has started multiple businesses, right? And has a history in advertising, and writing, and PR, and just so many important skills, you’re also married to a founder to Dan Martell, who’s been a guest on this podcast before and are a parent. So I resona |
Sherry and Rob talk about some of their favorite parts of 2017 and some not so favorite parts. The topics include things they’ve learned, goals accomplished, Apps and technology, and books/TV shows.
Support ZenFounder
Sherry talks about trying to regain some real meaning through all the holiday “hype” and what it means to feel true joy.
Support ZenFounder
Sherry and Rob have a discussion about sexual misconduct among people who are in power. They highlight a few talking points that listeners can use to discuss important conversation with teammates, colleagues, and family members. Given the current climate, its an important topic to be aware of for successful people as well as the danger of becoming entangled in a distorted ego.
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Sherry: | I just sent the revisions for the book off this morning. | | Rob: | Congratulations. Excited? | | Sherry: | I’m not going to be excited until it’s in my hand. Until then. I’m just working. | | Rob: | It takes a lot longer than you think it’s going to. | | Sherry: | Yup. Yup, that’s true. We had really a lot of feedback about our last episode, when we talked about what life has been like this fall, and talked about the new kiddos in our family. That was really cool, to hear from people who e-mailed or reached out to us on social media. I already felt really supported by our inner circle, but now I feel even extra supported by our wider community, but the ZenFounder community. | | Rob: | Yeah, it’s always nice to know that people care and people are following the story and that people are impacted by hearing other folks go through struggles, and not just impacted but … I don’t know, there were a lot of thoughtful responses that I think were really appreciated by us. | | Sherry: | We’ve been talking a lot with friends and thinking a lot about this sort of epidemic of news articles about sexual misconduct among people who are in power. We thought we would talk about that today. If you are listening with kiddos, we are going to be talking about the existence of sex and how it’s sometimes misused, so if that’s not a topic you’re ready to discuss with your children today in this moment, then maybe hold off and listen to this podcast when you are in the company of other grownups. | | Rob: | Yeah, and as we’ve talked about this, both between you and I as well as with friends, I’m just astounded at the sheer volume of sexual harassment and misconduct claims that are coming out just all at once, over the course of this few months, and all the stuff that has happened over the years, that essentially women now feel like they can come out and tell the truth. The volume of it is just, it’s sickening. For me, it’s shocking and sickening. | | Sherry: | I wish it was a little more shocking to me. Part of my life as a psychologist is to talk with people who have been survivors of mistreatment, whether that’s sexual abuse as a child, or assault or harassment as an adult. I mean I think the statistics on this are very, very consistent. It’s about one in four women and one in six men who experience unwanted sexual contact, unwanted sexual attention and some point in their lives. The fact that it’s coming to light and we see this pervasiveness among certain men who are in power is … I wish it was more surprising to me, but it’s not. This kind of thing happens all the time, unfortunately. | | Rob: | Yeah, that makes sense, and I think it’s becoming more obvious and it’s playing out as these accusations come out. How do we want to cover it today? | | Sherry: | I’ve been thinking a lot about why this happens, like what’s happening. I think about why this happens with the intention of wanting to |
Sherry and Rob open up about some of the events that have happened with their family in the last couple months. They talk about how the power of entrepreneurship has helped them tackle hard things and how important it can be to have supportive people in your life.
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Sherry Walling: | So one of the highlights of my fall was giving a talk at Business of Software in Boston at the middle of September. It was a great talk. I had a lot of fun, went to the speakers’ dinner, stayed up way too late, drank way too much, hanging out with friends and fellow speakers. | | And I took a really early flight the next day because there was a hurricane supposedly coming in towards Boston. And I was really tired. I hadn’t slept much. But I’m sitting on the plane. I’ve got my laptop open. And I’m sitting next to this woman who’s going on vacation to Las Vegas. And so she’s chit-chatty, and she’s like, “Have you been to Las Vegas?” And I’m like “Yeah, I have. Like every year.” And at some point I just put my headphones on and stopped engaging with her. | | And I started crying on the plane, pretty hard. Which was very embarrassing and not really my normal MO, but I was crying because I was writing this document, writing about our family. And writing about all of the things that I love about you and our two boys. And writing about all the things that we would change, or we would lose if I made a decision that I had to make, or that we had to make together. | | So I’m on the plane, I’ve just given this great talk. And I’m descending into this mess of tears and fear and worry about the future. That was, I think, a Tuesday. I came home on Tuesday, and I turned around, and on Friday I got on a plane, and I flew to California with a question in my mind of whether or not I would return home with two more children. | | And I think the plane ride after BOS, the plane ride home from Boston, crying on the plane, writing, trying to just put everything out into words, get it out on a piece of paper, so I could sort of sort through how I felt about this decision. That was one of the most sort of pivotal moments for me in the last couple of months. | | Rob Walling: | And so today we wanted to talk through what that experience has been like. And I wanted to frame it and structure it around a talk. Actually really a non-talk. It was more of a conversation that I had from the stage of MicroConf Europe that was in Lisbon a few weeks ago and kind of want to talk through, not only that process, but just dive into the power that we have as entrepreneurs and I think a lot of things that we take for granted, and things that we don’t talk about in our space, are things like once you’ve achieved freedom and you run a business, what next? | | Like that’s the goal for so many people, but what else is there, and what other moral imperative should we feel, both for our families and colleagues, friends, and to the broader world. | | Sherry Walling: | I think when I say also that today episode’s sort of intensely personal. You used the term moral imperative, and I think that’s a good term to use. But it’s also one that is personal, like one that really reflects one’s own individual values and approach to life. So we’re going to talk about what has happened in us and in our family in the last couple of months. But this is us talking about this family situation a |
After a recent trip to Rome, Sherry talks about the restorative nature of her trip. With the holidays coming up she talks about the importance of finding a way to connect with what resets/restores you and shares tips on how to do so.
Support ZenFounder
Sherry interviews Jonathan Stark of the Value Pricing Bootcamp and Expensive Problem about how entrepreneurs go about charging money for their services. Together they reflect on the relationship between valuing your work and valuing yourself.
In honor of Veteran’s Day, Sherry interviews Tony Perez, Co-Founder of Sucuri, about his life as a Marine and how his experiences shaped him as an entrepreneur. They talk about the value of having a clear purpose, channeling intensity, and the overlap between the demands of military life and the demands of founder life. Tony shares about his struggle to return to civilian life, his experience of PTSD and his discomfort with “thank you for your service.”
Episode Transcript
| Sherry Walling: | Today is Veteran’s Day, so our podcast guest is a former Marine Corps corporal, and one of the co-founders of Sucuri. Tony Perez, and his partners, took a small web-based security company from zero to 12 million dollars in six years. They were recently acquired by GoDaddy and Tony is now the head of the security business organization. In today’s episode, I talk with Tony about his experiences in the Marines, and how that’s shaped who he’s become as an entrepreneur. Part of my philosophy of interviews is people should use whatever language they wish to use to talk about their own lives, so just a heads up to some listeners, that there’s some choice military language in this particular episode. So, if you are listening with small kids or listening in the car, you might want to save this one for a time when grown up language is more appropriate. | | For those of you, like Tony, who have done two very difficult jobs in your life, being both in the military and entrepreneurs, kudos to you. Neither of those activities are easy, and the fact that you have had the energy, passion, and stick to it ness to do both is commendable. So we salute you on this Veteran’s day. A big thanks from ZenFounder. | | Sherry Walling: | So I am here today talking with Tony Perez, who is the co-founder … Right? Are you co-founder or are you founder, founder? | | Tony Perez: | No, no, I’m a co-founder, I’m not that lucky to be a founder. | | Sherry Walling: | Or you are lucky to be a co-founder. | | Tony Perez: | I am. | | Sherry Walling: | Because your co-founder is pretty cool. | | Tony Perez: | That’s right. | | Sherry Walling: | Anyway, co-founder of Sucuri, which is a business that specializes in internet security. Tony is a former Marine and he is now the head of security business organization at GoDaddy. After exiting earlier this year, in 6 years, he and his team grew Sucuri from zero to 12.5 million dollars, so they’re pretty awesome. He’s pretty successful and he is here talking to me today about his experiences in business, but also his experiences in the Marine Corps. | | So, thanks for being with me, Tony. | | Tony Perez: | For sure. I’m really excited to be here, doc. Just so you know, I’m going to call you Doc, because that’s what we do in the military, we call our Docs and that’s a term of endearment, so please don’t take it any other way than that. | | Sherry Walling: | What’s up, Doc? It’s cool. | | Tony Perez: | I was gonna intro it like, “What’s up, Doc?” But you didn’t give me the opportunity so now I have to kind of add context. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah, that makes the joke less funny [crosstalk 00:03:20]. | | Tony Perez: | Yeah, I know |
In this episode of ZenFounder, Sherry talks about dealing with burnout and defines it from a psychological standpoint. She talks about the different types of symptoms, causes, and effect on the brain that burnout can have.
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Sherry: | Hey y’all, its been a while since I’ve been on the podcast and I’ve missed the opportunity to talk to you each week. It’s been a really interesting season, and soon Rob and I will record a podcast where we sort of explain all that’s been going on, and why I’ve been AWOL for a month. But, in the meantime, rest assured that I’m fine, Rob and I are both fine, but some major changes are happening in our lives and we’re doing our best to work through all of that. | | One thing that is going on is that the book, the long awaited ZenFounder book will be out hopefully the first week of December. It always takes a lot longer than you think it’s going to take, and I’m definitely learning that the hard way. But, the book is in its final week, the very final edits with an editor, and we have a cover designed, and we’re just getting all of our ducks in a row to be able to launch it and make it public. So stay tuned for a launch date. And the best way to kind of keep up with what’s happening with the book, or if you want to be in on kind of the early bird launch information you can go to zenfounder.com and make sure you’re on our mailing list, ’cause that will definitely be where we, you know maybe give away some free deals and make it the insider’s guide to getting the book. | | So actually our eleven year old thought of the name for the book, and the final title is The Entrepreneur’s Guide to Keeping Your Shit Together. So, thank you eleven year old for that insightful title, I’m not sure where he heard that kind of language. | | Sherry: | When I was nineteen I emptied my entire bank account to buy a plane ticket, one plane ticket, to West Africa. It was like two thousand dollars, which was all the money I had at that point from working at an ice cream shop in the summers between high school and college. | | I had never left the county before, I’d never had a passport before, so I thought why not go to West Africa and like go big. It’s time for a big adventure, and I planned to stay for a year. I spent my junior year of college studying at the University of Ghana in Legon, which is just outside of Accra, the capital of Ghana. And it was amazing, it was a season of tons of new experiences. Eating new foods, making new friends, traveling to places that hd hardly been visited by a fair skinned, blue eyed person before. I learned how to carry a five gallon bucket on my head, I learned to live without electricity and running water for weeks at a time. I camped out next to waterfalls, I danced in village drum circles around a fire. I mean, real National Geographic kinds of experiences. | | I had a meal with an Ashanti queen mother. I traveled all around West Africa, mostly hitchhiking, sorry mom, or on tro tro’s, which are like these crazy little mini buses that sometimes have seats and sometimes have floors. It’s really amazing what people can piece together when they need to. I seriously rode on this mini bus that was plywood topped with medal. It was … somebody totally hacked it together, but it was all an adventure. | | And, so I’m a little bit old, and this was all before, if you can believe it, Facebook, and Instagram, and Twitter, and all th |
In this episode of ZenFounder, Karim Marucchi interviews Carl Smith, of Bureau of Digital, about his passion for helping the founder community.
Support ZenFounder
In this episode of ZenFounder, Rob talks about putting in the work, how being a founder is like being a parent or spouse. It’s a lot of hard work but the payoff can be great and worth it. He reads a blog post related to the topic.
Support ZenFounder
Hatching Twitter Book
In this episode of Zenfounder, Sherry talks with Shawn and Kay Hesketh, who were co-hosts of the ZenFounder Couples Retreat about some insights and takeaways from the event.
Support ZenFounder
Carrie Dils guest hosts this episode of ZenFounder and interviews Marc Benzakein of ServerPress, about his personal health transformation. They talk about the steps he took to making his health a priority.
Office Hours Podcast
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Sherry Walling: | Hey guys. Today I bring you another interview guest hosted by my great friend, Carrie Dils. In this interview, Carrie’s going to talk with Marc from ServerPress about his pretty radical health transformation. He talks about the steps that he has taken over the last year to put his physical health and well being sort of front and center in his life. | | Last week we talked about sleep. This week we’re talking about physical wellness, exercise, nutrition, all those things. And these topics are super essential to the well being of a founder, of an entrepreneur. Not just so you look cute in a swimsuit but because our bodies and minds are deeply integrated. So, in order to work well, to feel good, to be the best version of yourself in your relationships, you actually need to have a pretty strong foundation of health within your body. | | In the ZenTribes group we begin with this topic. We begin with the building blocks of sanity. The basics of physical health that need to be in place in order for you to function at your best, both in your business and in your life. | | So, enjoy this conversation between Carrie and Marc and thanks again to Carrie for guest hosting for me this week. Be sure to check out her podcast Office Hours.FM it is super cool. Lots of great ideas and feedback going on there, especially for freelancers. And I will look forward to being back with you in a week or so. | | Carrie Dils: | Hey Marc it is so good to be chatting with you today. How are you doing? | | Marc Benzakein: | I’m doing really good. I’m enjoying sunny Southern California weather right now. | | Carrie Dils: | Well I’m enjoying kind of dreary North Texas weather. So, yours sounds like the better spot to be. | | Marc Benzakein: | Well it is until it gets to be 90 degrees and you start to fade away. | | Carrie Dils: | Fair enough. For folks you haven’t had a chance to meet you, can you share a little bit about you and who you are and what you do? | | Marc Benzakein: | Well my name is Marc Benzakein. I typically live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin with my wife and nine children. Seven of whom we are working on adopting. | | I run a company called ServerPress LLC. where we make software for WordPress developers and designers. And I workout and diet and have learned a lot about myself mentally and physically in the last year or so. | | Carrie Dils: | That’s exactly what I’m hoping to chat about is, sort of, your journey to health and fitness over the last, what would you say, year or two years. | | Marc Benzakein: | Next week marks a year in [inaudible 00:03:21] so October 8 actually marks my one yer anniversary that I really started putting a lot of effort into it. | | Carrie Dils: | Okay, so what was the impetus to get your rear in gear, if you will? | | Marc Benzakein: | Well, last year in July I turned 49 and all of a sudden the 50 ye |
Carrie Dils guest hosts this episode of ZenFounder and interviews Dr. Jeffrey Clark, a psychiatrist and entrepreneur, who has developed an expertise on sleep. They talk about how to build better sleeping habits and its long term benefits.
Office Hours Podcast
Slumber Camp
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Sherry Walling: | Hey guys. Today’s episode is hosted by my good friend Carrie Dils. Carrie Dils is a force within the WordPress community. She’s also the host of TheOfficeHours.fm podcast, and she is an incredibly stellar human being. Anyone who’s in a room with Carrie is laughing, is feeling listened to, is feeling cared about, and she’s way smart. She today is going to interview Dr. Jeffrey Clark. Jeff is a psychiatrist and an entrepreneur. He’s also someone who is developing this deep expertise in sleep, and anyone that I have talked to in the entrepreneurial community is struggling with this. Often, sleep is the first thing to go when we’re busy, and when our families and businesses have demanded us. | | Jeff has some awesome wisdom to throw down, and some great strategies, and I think this is going to be probably one of the most important episodes that we put out this year because of the importance of what Jeff has to share. Carrie is hosting today because Rob and I just had some things happening in our family that have made us say, “Wow, we need to slow things down and we need some help.” I asked Carrie to help, and she did amazingly with two days notice. Took over this interview for me, and she’ll be hosting the podcast this week, and then another one in the coming weeks, and I’m so grateful to her for stepping in and helping out, and Rob and I will be back on soon, and explaining a little bit of about some of the crazy and amazing things that are going on in our lives, and in the meantime I give you Carrie and Jeff. | | Carrie Dils: | Jeff, it is really wonderful to have you on the show today. Thanks so much for agreeing to come on. | | Jeffrey Clark: | Oh, my pleasure. Glad to be here. | | Carrie Dils: | Yeah. One of the things that particularly excited to talk about, and when Sherry asked if I would be willing to do this interview I was like, “Heck yes,” because this is a topic that is fascinating on multiple levels, and applies to absolutely everyone, and that is sleep. Maybe just kind of briefly share how did you … You’re a psychiatrist. How did the sleep component come to be something that you were particularly interested in? | | Jeffrey Clark: | Oh, absolutely. I started learning about sleep all the way back in … During my undergraduate degree. I was a neuroscience major, and so sleep is one of the most interesting physiological functions of the brain, and it turns out to be important for all sorts of diseases and illnesses, and in my roles as a psychiatrist I treat a lot of people who have sleep disorders on top of anxiety or depression or bipolar disorder. Also, I found that in a lot of my colleagues, sleep was a major challenge, and I just started to get more and more interested in it during my first year as a resident where I was working 80+ hour weeks most of the time. | | I realized I was just totally burnt out, and tired, and frustrated. Sleep became a personal passion of mine. How to figure out how do I get better sleep? Even with limited time I can find a way to hit the |
This weeks episode of ZenFounder is an excerpt of the Startups For The Rest Of Us podcast, in which Rob and Mike Taber discuss a talk given by Jason Cohen at the Business of Software conference.
Support ZenFounder
Jason Cohen’s Blog
Rob revisits a blog post that he published a couple years prior. He reads the post and adds additional commentary to it. Its about the fear you face as you push your personal and founder life forward and the risks you take.
Rob’s Blog Post
Support ZenFounder
In this episode of ZenFounder, Sherry shares some details about her new upcoming book. She reads a preview of the introduction of the book.
Support ZenFounder
Sherry and Rob talk about both growth and change. Sherry discusses what she is learning as she is growing her business and Rob talks about what hes learning from working for someone else.
Support ZenFounder
In this episode of the Founder Origins Stories, Sherry interviews Rob. They talk about his early experiences coding on the Apple IIe, selling candy, and the role his dad had on his life.
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Sherry Walling: | Today wraps us this round of the Founder Origin Story series. We do have this on the roadmap to do again next summer, so if you have a founder in mind that you absolutely want to hear from, you wanna hear about his or her background, where they came from, how they grew up, how they were shaped then please send us an email, Tweet at us, get in touch with us somehow and submit their name and we’d love to get them on the deck for the next round. | | But we’re ending the series today with Rob’s origin story. So we talk about some things that I don’t think we’ve actually talked about on the podcast anywhere else or that he hasn’t talked about that publicly. His early experiences of learning to code on an Apple 2E, his early experiences writing comics, inventing things and being an entrepreneur selling candy at school, selling other things. And we also talk in this interview about the central role that his dad played in both helping him learn how to cope with hard things, to face anxiety, but also in terms of building up his belief in himself and his own ability to contribute meaningfully to the world. | | So it’s a good interview. There’s a little bit of crying but it’s mostly by me. So thanks for listening to the series, and we have a lot of things coming up this fall. Love to see any of you join us for Business of Software in Boston in September, Robert and I’ll both be at MicroConf Europe in Lisbon in November, and we’re doing a lot of other traveling and speaking. We’re hosting a retreat, hosting some zen tribe groups, so all of that of course is available on the Zen Founder website and feel free to be in touch with us if you are listening to the podcast and you realize there’s something that we might be able to do to help bring a little bit more zen to you or to your business. You know how to get ahold of us. | | Sherry Walling: | It’s a little bit funny to interview you about this since I know a lot about your life story, but I think it’s a really interesting story and it’ll good for the listeners to hear this part of you, which I don’t know that you’ve shared a lot publicly. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, I haven’t really had the chance. I think a lot of folks that you’ve interviewed for this series, there hasn’t really been a venue to talk about growing up because typically we start with … There’s often the question of “Were you an entrepreneur when you were a kid?” and then that’s it and then it moves it on. It’s like okay, so take us to when you started the business and we kind of skip through that, so I really haven’t gotten in depth about growing up and what my formative years look like. | | Sherry Walling: | I think it is important to have that time to talk about the development of the founder and not just the development of the business, so I’m glad we’re doing this. So let’s maybe start from the beginning. Where were you born? Where did you grow up? | | Rob Walling: | I was born in Santa Clara, California. I grew up basically in the South Bay and then in the East Bay area, so what’s interesting is that I didn’t realize growing up that the bay area was different then the rest of the world, and so seeing billboards for computer chips and manufacturers i |
In this episode of the Founder Origin Stories, Sherry interviews Bridget Harris of YouCanBook.me. Bridget talks about the variety of careers she had held before becoming a full time entrepreneur.
Support ZenFounder
In this episode of the Founder Origin Stories, Sherry interviews Clay Collins a co-founder of Leadpages. They talk about his early entrepreneurial endeavors, his departure from Leadpages, and his hopes for the future.
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Speaker 1: | This week in our continuing founder origins series, Sherry interviews Clay Collins, the co-founder and former CEO of Lead Pages. I’ve had the pleasure of knowing Clay for several years online, and we first met in person maybe eighteen months ago when Clay was about four or five months into the negotiation process for Lead Pages to acquire my company Drip; and it’s been great to get to know Clay on a personal level and I would consider him a respected colleague as well as a friend. | | Clay Collins came on the scene teaching internet marketing years ago and had a podcast called The Marketing Show that was one of my favorite podcasts to learn about tactical marketing, and then he teamed up with two co-founders and started Lead Pages in January of 2013. His origin story is fascinating; he grew up in California and later moved to Minneapolis and has really had a major impact on a lot of peoples lives by starting this company and bringing more of tax startup scene here to Minneapolis. If you haven’t heard him talk about his childhood, growing up being homeschooled and basically the story of becoming an entrepreneur, it’s quite engaging and I think you’re gonna enjoy it. | | Sherry Walling: | I think it was about, very close to a year ago, to the day, that I interviewed you from the closet of my new house while the movers were moving my stuff in. | | Clay Collins: | Nice, the closet interview. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah, like literally I was in the closet; I was like hiding from everyone. | | Clay Collins: | Yeah, stuff was banging around in the background. | | Sherry Walling: | You were so gracious, you were like “We can reschedule.” And I was like “Oh, no, no, no, no. If I do one more thing related to moving or boxes, like I’m just gonna go crazy so please talk to me about some other part of life.” So I was in the midst of a giant transition the first time we did an interview and now you are in the midst of a giant transition; although not hiding in the closest. | | Clay Collins: | Absolutely true. | | Sherry Walling: | So what’s the big news? What’s the big transition? | | Clay Collins: | Yeah, so, the big transition is that John Tedesco, our chief operating officer has been appointed to be CEO of the company, the board and I did that after a search kicked off by myself. And I’m moving on to be a chairman of the board, but my day to day role in the company is no longer, so I’ll still be in the office probably on a weekly basis. Certainly every other week I’ll still be involved in high level strategy, and of course I’ll still be on the board, but my day to day operating role is no longer and it’s really exciting. It’s the right thing for the customers, the right thing for the company, it’s the right thing for me and it really happened in a genuinely organic way. | | John Tedesco, back at the end of 2013, started advising us just free of charge. We would meet for breakfast and we would talk about a number of different things and it almost felt like there was almost a karmic imbalance and Tracy and I offered him advisor shares & |
In this episode of the Founder Origin Stories, Sherry interviews LaTesha Burroughs of Optimize Player, about her early entrepreneurial endeavor of selling sneakers as well as her relationship with her parents.
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Rob Walling: | On ZenFounder this week, we continue our founder origin stories as Sherry Interviews LaTesha Burrows. LaTesha is an entrepreneur, and a WordPress aficionado who’s always dabbling in things related to marketing, design, development, and business. And I hope you enjoy Sherry’s conversation with LaTesha today. But before we dive in, I’d also encourage you to head into iTunes, or Downcast, or Overcast, or Stitcher, or whatever software you use to consume this podcast, and give us a five start review. Five star reviews helps us get found in the iTunes repository. They help us grow our audience, and frankly, they give us motivation to just keep putting out high quality shows. You don’t even need to write an actual comment, you can just click the five star icon. And we would really thank you for that, if you get any type of value out of ZenFounder. | | Sherry Walling: | So, for people who don’t know you, since you haven’t been someone who’s been super out there with your story, or you don’t have a podcast, and stuff like that, but say a little bit about what you’re doing right now. I know you just launched something, so give us the five sentence version of your current business. And then we’ll work backwards. | | LaTesha: | So, I currently run a start up called OptimizePlayer, which is a video marketing automation platform. So, pretty much you can tell it, if somebody watches this much of the video, or if they’ve performed this action on the video, tag them in drip, or another marking automation- | | Sherry Walling: | That’s for that shout out, right there. | | LaTesha: | Yeah. | | Sherry Walling: | Perfect product placement. | | LaTesha: | Shout out to Rob. Yeah, so you can tag them in these CRMs and these automation platforms, so that you can follow up with them more appropriately. | | Sherry Walling: | Okay. So, just using video content, you’re basically using video to build your list. Or to build follow up into your business. | | LaTesha: | Exactly. | | Sherry Walling: | That’s cool. So, yeah. I sat down at a meal with people at Microcom last spring, and just put it out to the table. There were maybe seven or eight people there, and I said, who’s story do you guys want to hear? Who are you curious about? Who’s got something going on that doesn’t necessarily get a lot of air time? And I think it was Justin Jackson who was like, you’ve got to talk to [LaTesha 00:02:55]. You’ve got to get her story, she’s so … Just who she is, and I could tell … You know, there were some heads nodding around the table. People have a lot of respect for what you’re doing, and what you’ve built over the years. | | LaTesha: | Yeah. I’m so grateful to hear that. He’s been so monumental right now, in this time. Because he’s just a great people person. So he brings the best out of you. And especially somebody like me, who is in their shell, Justin Jackson is just great for that type of personality. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah. Every introvert needs an extroverted best friend, o |
Taking a mid-summer break from the Founder Origin Stories, Sherry and Rob reflect back and share some thoughts on their favorite interviews thus far. They give some updates on whats been going on with them and share some of their plans for the fall.
Support ZenFounder
MicroConf Europe
In this episode of the Founder Origin Series, Sherry interviews Andrew Warner of Mixergy about his childhood. He talks about some specific memories from his school years and his thoughts on life.
Support ZenFounder
In this episode of the Founder Origin Stories, Sherry interviews Chris Lema. Chris has worked with many companies helping them build better software products and development teams. Sherry talks with Chris about his early life struggles with his home life, survival skills he had developed, and how professional counseling played a role in who he is today.
Support ZenFounder
Chris Lema
Today we bring you another in the Founder Origin Stories. Sherry interviews Brian Clark, of Copyblogger and Rainmaker Digital, about adoption, abandonment, being a misfit, and walking away from law. He also talks as his motivations for creating successful businesses and the power of being early (alone) in a new space.
Love this episode and want more? Check out Brian’s interview with Sherry on Unemployable.
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Rob Walling: | This week on ZenFounder, we continue our founder origin series with Brian Clark. Sherry interviews Brian from Copyblogger and Rainmaker Media. Brian was an early blogger. I remember him coming to prominence in the maybe 2005 to 2007 range. Has always had a unique voice, but also, a voice that kind of straddled two communities; the startup community and the Internet marketing community. | | Brian and his crew kind of came up with this idea of the third tribe, and it was a tribe that wanted to do startups, but actually wanted to make money. It was much more in line with the type of bootstrapping ethic, and I’ve always respected Brian and thought of him as someone with a bootstrapper’s ethic; an ethic of launching a company in order to make money, not just going out and building slide decks and trying to raise funds. So I hope you enjoy this interview as it delves into Brian Clark’s origin story. | | I’d also encourage you to head over to ZenFounder.com and get on our mailing list. We are planning an in-person event in the fall. It’s going to be very small. It’s going to be exclusive. If you’re at all interested, head over to ZenFounder.com. | | Sherry Walling: | So for anybody who’s been living under a rock and doesn’t know about Copyblogger or the tremendous work that you’ve done to really push forward the content marketing space, before that was even a thing; what are you most proud of, in terms of your professional accomplishments? | | Brian Clark: | That’s a good question. I’m obviously proud to have kind of been at the forefront of what’s such a big thing now. Of course, I didn’t know what I was doing. I mean, there are some people who are much more determined. Joe Pelusi was very key from an early stage at … He came up with the term content marketing and really advocated for it, even to me, to get to adopt it. | | But I was doing in the late 90s; I just didn’t know what to call it. That eventually led to starting Copyblogger, which was the first blog to talk about what we now call content marketing. It’s still the largest. So, yeah, I’m very proud of that. Like anyone else, I think some days I get tired of talking about it and just enjoy doing it, and yet that’s kind of like looking a gift horse in the mouth. You know, you take the territory that you’ve kind of charted in that regard. |
In this episode of the Founder Origin Series, Sherry interviews Rebecca Gill, founder of Web Savvy Marketing and an SEO consultant, about her early life in Michigan as a child. And some of the pivotal moments that helped shape her success.
Support ZenFounder
Rebecca Gill
Episode Transcript
| Rob Walling: | On this week’s ZenFounder, we continue our Founder Origin Series with Sherry interviewing Rebecca Gill. Rebecca is a Michigan based WordPress SEO consultant. She’s an educator and an author, as well as the owner of a digital agency for website design and development. In this episode, Sherry and Rebecca walk through Rebecca’s Founder Origin story and look at how it has shaped her both personally and professionally. | | In a couple of months, Sherry’s going to be launching another Zen Tribe’s coaching group. The first one sold out so quickly that she and Cory from iThemes are already talking about gearing up for the next one. If you have any interest in being in a small online group full of other entrepreneurs who are trying to push their business forward, head over to zenfounder.com, sign up for the mailing list, and we’ll be in touch the next time a group has an opening. | | Sherry Walling: | Let’s just begin by you introducing yourself and letting people know a little bit about what your business is. | | Rebecca Gill: | My name is Rebecca Gill, I run a Michigan agency that does custom word press design and development. I spend a lot of time working on SEO and educating people on search engine optimization. | | Sherry Walling: | In my head, at least, you’re the queen of word press. You spend a lot of time at conferences, you spend a lot time talking with people about how to run their businesses well. | | Rebecca Gill: | I do, yes. I like to empower people. | | Sherry Walling: | You’re also kind of a teacher and a leader in the WordPress community? | | Rebecca Gill: | I am told that, although that’s not how I would self describe myself, but yes. I’ve definitely been told that I’m one of the well known people and the one that is constantly being seen. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah. I think it needs to have a variety of different voices that are leading different communities and even if that’s not a title you would give yourself. It’s one that you have come into, because people are interested in what you’re doing and seem to trust you. | | Rebecca Gill: | Yeah. I tend to stand out because I don’t code, and I don’t design. I don’t have graphic design skills or coding skills and it’s more business ownership and internet marketing and SEO. So, I bring something different to the table than a lot of the other speakers or people in word press. The fact that I’m a woman helps me stand out a little bit too, because it is a sea of men. There are some women, but there’s definitely a larger population of men, without question. You tend to stand out. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah, absolutely. I was at a co |
In this episode of the Founder Origin Series, Sherry interviews Jason Cohen of WP Engine, about his early days in college and starting companies. And how being a son to two teachers shaped his success.
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Rob Walling: | Welcome back and thanks for joining us on this week’s continuation of our Founder Origin Series. This week, Sherry interviews Jason Cohen of WP Engine and A Smart Bear. You might know Jason for having spoken at MicroConf several times. He has one of the, in my opinion, one of the best talks about bootstrapping a start up that I’ve ever heard. And he’s been known to frequently drop tons of start up knowledge on his blog, asmartbear.com. | | If you get value out of ZenFounder or out of just this series of founder origin stories, I encourage you to head over to supportzenfounder.com, where we have a patron running, and even a couple dollars a month helps us keep the show going, pay for the editor, and helps us keep the quality of the show as high as possible. I hope you enjoy this week’s episode. | | Sherry Walling: | What’s your total company count at these days? How many have you founded? | | Jason Cohen: | Oh, four. | | Sherry Walling: | Four. Okay. And what was your first entrepreneurial endeavor, before the formal companies. When you were a kid, did you have a lemonade stand? Were there things that you were concocting to practice your entrepreneurial skills? | | Jason Cohen: | Yeah, I had a quote on quote, general store in elementary school with paper and pencils for people who forgot it, and they could buy them for a quarter. But of course, nobody has even a quarter. So it didn’t work. | | Sherry Walling: | Did you work on credit? Or trade for jelly beans? How’d you work that out? | | Jason Cohen: | It just didn’t work. I think … I don’t know if I’ve always thought I wanted to start a company. But, I definitely have always had projects. That’s absolutely a thread from even very little when I would either write a book, whatever that means in second grade. Or then with the computer, writing very simple programs. There was always projects. And so, I think it’s more like being obsessed with projects and that turning into something, rather than I want a business with a P&L and a balance sheet and employees and how am I going to build that. That sort of came secondarily. | | Sherry Walling: | Like you wanted to make something first. | | Jason Cohen: | Yeah. | | Sherry Walling: | And foremost. What kind of kid were you? How would you describe your personality as a kid? | | Jason Cohen: | Well, I was a class clown, but mostly in the disruptive way as opposed to the witty way. So, definitely never liked being told what to do. I mean, not that everyone likes being told what to do, but almost needing to not do whatever it is that we’re supposed to do. Oh, we have homework. Great. I’m going to try to get it done in a quarter of the time and then do something else, even if that’s as |
To kick off this summer’s Founder Origin Stories, Sherry interviews Dan Martell, founder of Clarity. They talk about his early years as a troubled teen and the experiences and people along the way that helped give him the skills to be a better person and successful entrepreneur.
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Rob Walling: | This episode of ZenFounder kicks off our seven-part Founder Origin Series that’s going to run here for the next seven weeks. Very excited to do this again. This has been one of our most popular series of episodes that we’ve ever recorded. We’re going to kick this one off with Sherry speaking to Dan Martell. And I first ran into Dan when he and I spoke at a [inaudible 00:00:23] startup conference a few years back, I think it was in Grand Rapids, Michigan. And he had already had one exit from his consulting firm and I saw Dan hustling and I knew that he was going to have success with his next one. He sold the next one, then he started Clarity and since then he’s had another exit. So he’s had three exits. He’s done very well for himself and he’s a really impressive founder. He’s one of the founders that thinks at a different level than a lot of people around you. He would never call himself a growth hacker but he knows how to hack growth and some of the ideas he’s come up with are ingenious. | | But what’s perhaps even more interesting, especially related to this podcast, is Dan’s origin story. It’s fascinating. Grew up in a group home, was involved with the drug scene. And you’re going to hear a lot of interesting twists and turns in his origin story. And if you’ve only seen Dan online talking about his successes and you haven’t heard kind of a comprehensive look at his background and what he came and what he fought against and what he overcame to become a founder, you’re really going to enjoy this episode. | | Before we dive in, I want to encourage you to head over to ZenFounder.com, even on your mobile phone, we’re mobile responsive, and sign up for our mailing list because we are planning an in person event in the Fall. It’s going to be small, it’s going to be hand picked, hand crafted. It’s going to sell out quickly because of the idea of how small we want to keep it. That’ll be sometime in the Fall but if you’re at all interested in hearing about things that are coming up on our radar. Sherry actually already sold out her ZenTribes course that she’s doing. It’s kind of a mastermind group of about 10 people over the course of eight weeks with Cory Miller. And that sold out within a couple days of opening it up. So things are getting exciting over here at ZenFounder and I’d encourage you to keep us with us via the mailing list. So let’s dive in. | | Sherry Walling: | For people who don’t know you or aren’t familiar with your work, what are you most proud of that you’ve acco |
Sherry introduces the new Founder Origin Stories series that will be starting this summer, in which she interviews 7 successful entrepreneurs about their beginnings.
Support ZenFounder
Entrepreneurship is a tough, demanding, often lonely job.
It’s filled with the highest of highs and the lowest of lows.
And the hardest part … most of your friends and family don’t understand the unique demands, responsibilities, pressures, stresses, worries and pains of entrepreneurship.
So not only is it a tough sport … it becomes an intensely lonely one too, compounding the problems, as you try to balance marriages, parenting, and a host of other things in life.
Too often we entrepreneurs just bottle all this up. We put on masks. We put on a smile, despite the adversity we deal with daily. We suffer in secret while maintaining a facade of success.
But what if you had a group of like-minded entrepreneurs, dealing with the same issues?
What if you could share openly, honestly, your struggles? What if the other folks just got you?
What if you had practical tools to deal with anxiety and debilitating worry?
What if you knew the early warning signs of burnout and could recharge yourself before it’s too late?
What if you could move beyond teetering precariously between work and personal life and instead enjoy a sense of balance and integration?
What if you had a small group of trusted and like-minded peers who could encourage and build you up for 90 minutes every week?
If this is you, then we’ve created something JUST for you.
It’s called ZenTribes.
In this podcast episode, Sherry and Cory talk about entrepreneurial groups, how they work, and most importantly, how they can benefit the entrepreneur.
In this solo episode, Rob shares some of his tips he’s developed on how to maximize the absorption of information you can get from a book.
Support ZenFounder
Goodreads
In this episode Rob and Sherry discuss the book “What Got You Here Won’t Get You There: How Successful People Become Even More Successful“. It lists 20 bad workplace habits and they further detail some of these points in the book.
Support ZenFounder
JamesClear.com Summary
WikiSummaries
Rob and Sherry revisit their founder origin series. In this episode Sherry interviews Bidsketch founder, Ruben Gamez.
Support ZenFounder
Rob and Sherry talk about two articles from Entrepreneur Magazine, one is an interview with Expedia’s CEO about critical traits developed early in his career, and the other deals with things to add to your morning routine.
Expedia CEO Shares the Critical Traits to Develop by Age 30
10 Tweaks To Your Morning Routine That Will Transform Your Entire Day
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Sherry Walling: | I’m working in I-themes office today from Oklahoma City, which has been really fun. Just like a really cool creative group of people working here at I-themes. And they have, they have like a bunch of Lego sets around the office, including this Ferris wheel that I really am trying to inhibit myself from taking down and playing with. I feel like there should be more Legos in offices around the world. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, that sounds super cool. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah, it’s cool. | | Rob Walling: | I’m envious. | | Sherry Walling: | You have Legos in your office. | | Rob Walling: | This is true. As well as a 3D printer and some other random things. But the I-theme office is pretty cool. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah, it’s in a storefront so it looks sneaky from the outside, it just sort of looks like a random strip-mall storefront. But then you come in and they have kind of this maze of rooms that are a combination of conference rooms and open space offices and then some smaller offices, but you can just tell that the crew that works here is, you know, they’re playful, they’re creative. There’s lots of white board walls all around that have legit work on it, and then lots of fun doodles and pictures of turtles and then they have Legos around. I don’t know, it’s just that cool, the cool startup vibe. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, that’s fun. It’s always good to get to a new place and it kinda gives you a, like working from a new place gives me new perspective. I tend to get a ton done in the first few days when I discover a new coffee shop or when I’m working out of a new office like that, or a new co-working space, just this different stimulation. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah, there’s kind of this infusion of fresh energy. | | Rob Walling: | Totally. | | Sherry Walling: | Based on the new location. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. | | Sherry Walling: | So, we’ve been sending in some article links back and forth, and I thought maybe today we could talk about a couple of the articles that we’ve read lately that have been interesting. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, I think that’s a good plan. I know one of them is an interview and it’s not super meaty, but there are some kind of cool takeaways, and then the other one has a lot more points to it, although some of them may be things we already know, but it’s always good to refresh. | | Sherry Walling: | So, the first one is an article from Entrepreneur magazine, and it was an interview with founder of Expedia. And I am not sure how to pronounce his name, do you know? | | Rob Walling: | You know, I have no idea. It’s Dara [inaudible 00:03:10] is what it looks like. I don’t, |
Rob and Sherry close in on 17 years of marriage. They talk about how it has been a professional asset, the challenges and benefits of working together, and what things have been important in a successful marriage.
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Sherry Walling: | I’m sorry I did not give you very much notice and be like, “Hey, want to do the podcast now?” | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, no problem. I was just hoarking down a burrito bowl across the street at Whole Foods. It was quite good, but I rushed it. | | Sherry Walling: | Hey, nothing better than hoarking good food. What does hoarking mean? Is that a real word, or is that a [robism 00:00:18]? | | Rob Walling: | It’s probably made up. You know, I was going to just enjoy it, relish it, sit there for 20 minutes, and suddenly my wife texts me and says, “Be online in six minutes at your laptop soldier.” I rushed back here. | | Sherry Walling: | Have you ever enjoyed a meal, like relished? Have you ever eaten slowly in your life? | | Rob Walling: | Yes, most dinners that you and I have when we’re talking … and especially if we’re out having amazing food with amazing wine, I actually do relish those. You’ll notice I eat a lot slower when I do that, because that’s not … it’s not just to get nutrients in to my body so I don’t pass out. | | Sherry Walling: | It’s not functional. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, exactly. Yeah, a lot of lunches, I mean that’s why I don’t drink [Soylent 00:01:00] very often, but when I do it’s because I don’t have the time or kind of the head space right now, I’m in the middle of something but I know that I’m going to go low blood sugar here in the next couple hours. That’s what it is, but today I was making an exception and then dun, dun … the podcast. | | Sherry Walling: | That, and because [Soylent 00:01:15] is made of people. | | Rob Walling: | That’s right. | | Sherry Walling: | I thought for today’s podcast, we would talk about marriage. | | Rob Walling: | Marriage is what brings us together today. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah, just quick pop quiz. Do you have a sense of why I would’ve selected this topic? | | Rob Walling: | Because as of a couple days from now, you and I have been married for 17 years. | | Sherry Walling: | 17 years is a pretty, pretty big number kiddo. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, I know. It makes me start to feel like I’m old. How is it possible if I’m only 31, that we’ve been married for that long? | | Sherry Walling: |
Rob and Sherry talk about following your passion. They raise some questions on whether or not this is good advice when it comes trying to monetize it or “do what you love”.
Support ZenFounder
Open Sourcing Mental Illness
Upon returning from MicroConf 2017, Rob and Sherry talk about their experience with the conference as well as strategies you can use to get the most out of conferences.
Support ZenFounder
Sherry and Rob talk about the downside of good things. Sherry uses the example of founders experiencing growth and success in their businesses but it also causing disruptions. They talk openly about the reality that even really good things can still cause stress and what to do, and how to prepare.
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Sherry Walling: | Hi there. | | Rob Walling: | Hey. How are you? | | Sherry Walling: | Good. How is the sound and all that stuff. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. I think we’re good although I’m hearing your nose breathing. | | Sherry Walling: | That cannot be. I have no nose and I am not breathing. | | Rob Walling: | This seems like an odd error then. I guess it’s a feature, not a bug. Much better. | | Sherry Walling: | I’ve stopped breathing. | | Rob Walling: | Good. That was the proper solution to that. Like when you go to the doctor and says, “It hurts when I do this” and he says, “Stop doing that.” | | Sherry Walling: | Breathing? | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. That’s how we roll here. This is the ZenFounder comedy hour. | | Sherry Walling: | Okay. In all honesty though, I just had a bad experience. | | Rob Walling: | What was it? | | Sherry Walling: | I was really thirsty so I grabbed the glass of water on my dresser next to my bed and took a big old gulp. And it turns out it was actually the gin and tonic that you made me yesterday that I forgot about. | | Rob Walling: | Nice and all the ice had melted so it was crystal clear and you just took a swig of gin and tonic right before we record ZenFounder? | | Sherry Walling: | Day old, lukewarm, totally flat gin and tonic. It was so bad. | | Rob Walling: | I bet it was. How do you feel though? | | Sherry Walling: | I feel like I spit it out in the sink. I’m not that into day drinking unless the drinks are really good and I’m on vacation. | | Rob Walling: | Oh man. Yeah. I guess it’ll be an interesting episode. Oh, if you spit it out, there’s going to be no fun impact. See, if you already tasted it, it was in your mouth, you might as well just swallow it at that point. | | Sherry Walling: | I’m going to leave that alone and just transition into the topic at hand. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah. So gin and tonic’s are good when they’re chilled and fresh and not so good when they’re left out for 12 hours and then consumed by surprise. Yeah. What else is going on? Any other funny stories to tell, Rob Walling? | | Rob Walling: | Not at the moment. Not completely right off the cuff without any preparation. We are leaving for Microconf in a couple days. I suppose by the time this airs, it will either be the week of or the week after Microconf. Hopefully we were able to connect with you, our listener, if you also made it to either growth or started edition. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah. Please come and say hi to me. Everybody says hi to Rob. Say hi to me if you listen to ZenFounder. Rob, I don’t know, I know you aren’t on Twitter that much these days, but I |
Sherry talks with Ed Finkler, CTO at Graph Story and chairman of Open Sourcing Mental Illness (OSMI) about his mission to help raise awareness, educate, and provide resources to support mental health in the tech community both for employees and employers.
Support ZenFounder
OSMI.Org
OSMI on Twitter
OSMI on Facebook
Sherry and Rob talk about ADD/ADHD and its prevalence in the founder community. They help inform people on what it looks it and when its considered a disorder versus just a behavioral profile.
ADD Symptoms:
- Careless mistakes, difficulty attending to details
- Problems with sustained attention
- Difficulty following through on instructions
- Does not seem to listen
- Difficulty organizing tasks
- Often loses things
- Forgetful in daily activities
ADHD Symptoms:
- Fidgets
- Leaves seat in situations where remaining in seat is expected
- Restless movement
- Difficulty being quiet
- “On the go” “driven by a motor”
- Talks excessively
- Blurts out an answer before a question has been completed
- Difficulty taking turns
- Often interrupts or intrudes on others
Support ZenFounder
MicroConf
Episode Transcript
| Sherry Walling: | How are you doing? How’s your Monday treating you? | | Rob Walling: | So far, so good. | | Sherry Walling: | Despite starting the day with water dripping down the ceiling of our kitchen? | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. | | Sherry Walling: | Or pouring. Pouring, I should say. | | Rob Walling: | Out of a light, a can light. It was just coming right between the bulb, so you’re waiting for something to start sparking but it never did. Yeah. There was that. There was dropping of my car at the mechanic to get the side mirror fixed because it got smacked by a car when it was parked on the street. And then so far, so good today with our email queues. Monday mornings are always the trickiest days because a lot of sending happens, and so far we’re holding up well. So some pluses and some minuses, I’d say. | | Sherry Walling: | Hey. Good deal, man. At least no one was injured in the kitchen flood of 2017. | | Rob Walling: | I know. And the nice part is I walk in the door from dropping one of our kids off at essentially science, math … it’s like a STEM program before school. And I walk back in, and you’re at yoga, and our six-year-old who was here with your parents, but he had seen the water come down and had grabbed a bowl and had put it underneath it. And I was really proud of him for his kind of quick thinking and doing the right thing. He didn’t just let water pour all over the wood floor. It’s pretty cool. | | Sherry Walling: | He’s a smart kid. I think we should keep him. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. Indeed. | | Sherry Walling: | So I thought we might talk about ADHD today. How do you feel about that? | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. I think that’s good. I think we can probably start by talking about why this might be relevant to someone listening to this podcast. | | Sherry Walling: | Talking about why we’re talking about it? | | Rob Walling: | Right. | | Sherry Walling: | The meta level. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. Just kind of the justification of why someone should spend the next 20 or so minutes kind of listening to us delve into this, what they might be able to take away, or what this could teach someone. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah. So one of the reasons that I think it’s important to talk about is Michael Freeman who is a clinical faculty … he’s a clinical psychiatrist and a psychologist out of UCSF. He was a guest on episode 68 in the podcast, but he is, to my knowledge, please correct me if I’m wrong, but to my knowledge he is really only the reputable scientist that is doing high quality research on mental health in the entrepreneur and in the founder community. So again, if there are other resources, please send them to me. But as far as I know, Michael Freeman is the guy. And one of his findings … he did a survey looking at over 200 entrepreneurs and comparing them to a group of normals, a group of people who are not entrepreneurs. And one of the most significant differences that he found was in the reports of ADD or ADHD type symptoms. | | So he found that 29 percent of the entrepreneur sample met the criteria for ADD or ADHD, and that was compared to five percent in the comparison sample. So that is a pretty stark difference. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. That’s crazy, what a huge difference. | | Sherry Walling: | And I think it’s important to talk about because I think it’s a very misunderstood diagnosis and especially when the way that it’s applied to children. There’s certainly lots of debate about whether it’s a real thing or not and there’s some complexity to some stigma around it in particular. So I think it’s important just to kind of inform people about what it looks like and when it’s a disorder versus when it’s just sort of a not disorder, but maybe behavior profile. And I think in the entrepreneurs I know, you do see this pattern of a really fast moving mind, a hyper mind, so to speak, which does not mean pathology, but it can mean pathology. Wow, that was really poorly worded whole situation. Save me from myself! | | Rob Walling: | By pathology … because some folks may not know the colloquial definition of that, but it means that it is something that is, what, negatively impacting your life? Or that it’s something that would appear in the DSM, your manual of psychology and that could be treated or should be treated? Am I summarizing that correctly? | | Sherry Walling: | Everything that we consider a disorder or pathological exists on a continuum. So depression exists on a continuum. ADHD exists on a continuum. For some person they might have this really fast moving mind and they may look like they have ADHD but not actually experience any negative outcomes. It’s not a problem in their life. It’s a disorder when it becomes problematic like when someone is unable to function, when they’re unable to work, when they’re unable to maintain their relationships because the way that their mind is functioning is so intrusive or out of sync with their community and what the expectations are in their life. | | Rob Walling: | Right. So when it’s disrupting their life. And that’s when you say, “You can have ADHD and deal with it and it may not impact you negatively or just have minimal implications that you kind of learn to deal with and structure your life around or it can kind or have a major impact on you and those around you.” And that’s when … I think, in both cases, those are the reasons we’re talking about it today. But if it is something that is impacting you, today may be a discussion of a way to kind of identify it in yourself and net worth someone around you whether it’s your kids, or a spouse, or a co-founder, and then trying to figure out some strategies for coping with it. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah. So let’s take a step back and talk about what it is. So we talk about … there are two cousin diagnoses, I should say, attention deficit disorder, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. So there’s an attention component and then a hyperactivity/impulsivity piece. So when we talk about problems with attention, we’re talking about folks who have so much difficulty attending to their activities that they might make careless mistakes, have a lot of difficulty attending to details, problems with sustained attention, so begin something but can’t finish it, can’t follow through on a task that lasts longer than 20 minutes, might have difficulty following through on instructions because they can’t attend or remember all of the steps, don’t seem to listen when you’re talking to them. And I think this is a particularly frustrating component for parents who have children with some of these symptoms. | | You might be looking right at them, talking to them, giving them an instruction, and it just looks like there’s nobody home, like they’re just not all listening. Attention can also look like difficulty organizing tasks, so putting things into a sequence of tasks and being able to follow through. Practically, this looks like losing things, losing your keys, losing your homework, losing your wallet, losing your phone, and then lots of forgetfulness in daily activities. Forgetting trash day, forgetting, I guess on the outer edges, forgetting to pick your kids up from school, forgetting to follow through on things that maybe you planned to do. | | So if we could sort of categorize or summarize the attention component, it looks a lot like a brain that’s just not fully tuned in to what’s happening around them, to what’s happening in the moment. Does that make sense? Or any questions or comments about that? | | Rob Walling: | No. That definitely makes sense. I mean, I’ve know people, both children and adults, who I think probably fit this pretty well, and I can imagine that it’s pretty frustrating for the person and for those interacting with them and trying to kind of give instructions and then feel like maybe you’re not heard. And I can see this being something that you’d really want to figure out some systems, whether those systems are just things that you can implement yourself to kind of not be forgetful because you just use your calendar really well and you know that you’re going to forget things or systems for … I don’t think I have ADD at all, but I will often … I forget a lot of things. | | I don’t keep a lot of stuff in my head that I don’t really need to remember and so I will … I have entire systems for leaving the house where I have a checklist of always bring this stuff because otherwise I’ll walk out without a laptop, or without sunglasses, or without something like that. So I’m imagining developing systems like that could help to a certain extent. And then I’m sure there are cases that are just more severe than that that require some type of medical intervention, so to speak. | | Sherry Walling: | Absolutely. I mean, this is a phenomenon that’s treatable with behavioral systems in place, sometimes medicine. We can talk about that more in a minute, but I want to maybe finish explaining a little bit of what this looks like by talking about the hyperactivity or impulsivity component. So this can co-occur with attention difficulties, or can be the sort of primary problem. So we see a lot of hyper body movement, a lot of fidgeting, sort of difficulty sitting still in a context where sitting still is expected or is normal, lots of restless movement in the body, difficulty being quiet. You can see how this would play out in a classroom or even in a workplace. | | It looks like a body that’s really on the go or sort of driven by a motor, lots of movement, sometimes repetitive movement, difficulty controlling movement. And then somebody who is experiencing some hyperactivity or impulsivity may talk excessively, may have difficulty kind of filtering their thoughts, may have sort of a stream of consciousness, always flowing that’s not filtered very well. There’s a lot of interrupting of other people, difficulty taking turns, blurting out answers or responses before a question’s been completed. So behaviorally, it looks a lot like on the go, on the go, on the go, and lots of difficulty filtering both physical movement and speech. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. I can see this feeling like … especially if you were working with someone, whether it’s co-founder, or a co-worker, or a boss, or something, feeling like someone’s not listening to you and talking over you all the time would feel rude and dismissive, but it could very well just be that the circuits in their head are running wild, in essence. And they’re not noticing or intentionally doing these things. | | Sherry Walling: | Right. Not meaning to be a jerk, but just not being able to filter very well. So a couple of other things that are important in kind of understanding this and whether or not it kind of crosses over into problematic. These symptoms are supposed to be present across two domains of life, so difficulty at home and difficulty at work. If it’s just one context in your life, then it’s really important to look at what’s going wrong in that context. If you’re totally on top of things at work, but at home you’re really forgetful and disorganized, that looks more like sort of a lack of fit between how that context or situation is organized and your brain is functioning rather than some kind of abnormality in your brain function that’s more specific to you. | | So we’re always looking at context and person and how that sort of difficulties show up across domains of life. These symptoms are also supposed to be present before age 12. So this is something that’s developmental. If we’re talking about quote unquote a real disorder, it’s usually developmentally pervasive. Sometimes there are adult onset cases, but usually you can kind of see this pattern across the life span. And then here’s an important one. For this to be diagnosed as ADD or ADHD, it has it exist for more than six months. And I think that’s important because on a day when I’m really stressed, I have a lot of difficulty paying attention. So this isn’t a stressed day. You want to consider whether your anxiety is high, whether you’re experiencing some depression, whether you’ve had too much caffeine, whether you’ve not slept well, lack of exercise, a poor diet. Any of those lifestyle things can affect the functioning of your brain and your life. | | So again, always look at the most obvious things first. Is there a way I can take better care of myself? Am I getting enough sleep? Am I caring for my body? Because focus and attention are the first things to go. That’s higher order cognition, and they go quickly when the body is not being nourished and cared for the way that it needs to be. | | Rob Walling: | Got it. So if someone heard this list of symptoms, which we should include in the show notes because there’s a lot of bullets and a lot of information being thrown out. But if someone hears that and they think, “Oh, my gosh. I have 90 percent of these.” You’re saying the first thing they should do is get more sleep, ease off the caffeine, kind of try to eliminate these things first to figure out if it’s just they’re jacking with their own body chemistry. Is that the idea? | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah. I mean, I think the first question is how long has this been a problem? And if it’s been a problem for a long time and you’re just having this aha moment, that’s different than, “Oh, man. Today, or this week, or this month, I’m really out of it. I can’t focus.” Then if it’s a more acute problem or temporary problem, then we want to look at all the lifestyle things and mess with those first, really make sure that you’re ruling out any other probable cause that would be affecting your capacity to pay attention. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. There’s a how much is it impacting you in the two domains of life, as you said, and are there some easier fixes? Because if you go see a psychologist or a psychiatrist, there’s obviously drugs you can take to help it, but if there’s a way to fix it without that, it certainly seems like that’d be a better option. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah. I think ADD, ADHD gets a really bad rap in some circles and probably rightfully so. Because there’s another component that goes into making a diagnosis and that’s that these problems have to be inconsistent with the developmental level of the person. So when we’re talking about kids, there’s often this debate between, “Man, maybe this kid just needs more exercise, needs more recess, needs more big body movement,” and most six, seven-year-olds really don’t have bodies and brains that are set up to sit at a desk for five or six hours a day. But sometimes our schools have expectations that are not really developmentally informed. So then we have kids that are not functioning in school because the expectations aren’t really in line with what most six, seven, eight-year-olds should be doing with their minds and their bodies. | | So some people will critique this diagnosis and say, “We’re just diagnosing every kid with ADHD because they can’t sit down and behave.” And I think there’s really something to that critique, and I think there’s something to be said about the kinds of things that we expect children to be able to do that are really not at all in line with normal expectations. And then of course they can’t attend, of course they can’t sit still. They’re not meant to sit still at that age. So I guess for people who are listening who are kind of like, “I’m with you on the concern about overusing this diagnosis and sort of pathologizing both grownups and people who are having a normative reaction to unusual or unreasonable expectations of sitting still in a cubicle or at a desk all day. That’s not really how our bodies are meant to behave.” | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. That was going to be my next thing was it’s not just kids in school. I feel like it’s grownups at work. How natural of a state is that for everyone? And I wonder if the stat you mentioned earlier where there’s a five percent occurrence of ADD, ADHD at least in Michael Freeman’s comparison samples. Let’s just assume that’s across the U.S. I know that’s probably not completely accurate, but five percent, and then it’s 29 percent for founders. Is that adaptive behavior? If you’re trying to work at a cubicle for five years, you go through five jobs, and you’re thinking, “Boy, I really don’t fit in. I’m gonna bounce and do my own thing because then I can be in control of how I work and how I arrange things. And I can work from home or I can work alone.” I mean, do you think that’s part of it? | | Sherry Walling: | Absolutely. I mean, I think there’s some … yeah. There’s self selection here that some of these characteristics make it, like you say, sort of intolerable to do the nine to five, sitting in a cube, follow someone else’s expectations lifestyle. So if you are smart and have great ideas, you can take your big, active brain and do something entrepreneur with it and then it can be quite adaptive because, again, you can sort of make your own schedule, you can switch places often, you can change up the routine in a way that works better for how your mind functions. | | So there’s self selection here. I think there’s also some adaptiveness to some of these quote unquote symptoms. I think when we talk about this on-the-go drivenness, not necessarily the excessive talking, but that sense in which there’s a mind that’s moving really quickly. I think those are some entrepreneurial traits that a lot of folks have because they’re just a very active mind. So I don’t, in anyway, want to pathologize those traits except to say that sometimes they go too far over the spectrum and cause a lot of trouble in relationships and in functioning. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. That’s the thing. I could see … I mean, any number of kind of disorders or pathologies I could see being adaptive to being an entrepreneur, meaning that the ADHD could allow you to kind of bounce around, do a lot of things, which is often required. Right? It’s the ability to kind of switch back and forth quickly. I think of the movie The Big Short where one of the characters has Asperger’s, but it allows him to be … or is it autism. It’s on the spectrum basically, and it allows him to be extremely, deeply focused on numbers and as a result, he’s a phenomenal hedge fund manager. | | Sherry Walling: | There are all kinds of different ways that brains are made. There’s certainly is not one norm that we should all aspire to. I think the reason that we talk about this is is it causing distress? Is it causing deep feelings of shame? Is it causing difficulties in life functioning? That’s when we want to say, “Okay. Maybe it’s time to go see a psychologist and practice some of these behavioral interventions, practice some different organizational strategies. There are non-medical ways that can be learned to help mitigate some of the downsides of ADD, ADHD. | | And then there are medicines. There are medicines that do help the brain kind of calm down a little bit. And I’m very, very practical, sort of Occam’s razor about medicine. I say if it helps, use it. I’m cautious about medicating children. I like to look at all of the other options before medicine, but when you get to the point where you’ve tried lots of things and you’re still really suffering, I think medication exists for a reason and it can be helpful. So that’s all I say about it. But again, if you’re listening to this and you’re thinking like, “Oh, my gosh. This is me. I’ve been struggling with this my whole life. My spouse is about to kill me because she feels like I’m not listening to her or feels like I don’t follow through on what I say,” then it might be worth digging into this deeper and having a conversation with your doctor or going to see someone for a more formal evaluation just to see if this is something … there’s some tools and skills that you can gain that might be helpful. | | Rob Walling: | And just to wrap us up here, this episode is going live shortly before MicroConf in Las Vegas, which is happening … we actually have two conferences. There’s a starter edition and a growth edition. If you go to microconf.com, you can see … think about whether or not you might want to go. Sherry and I are attending the conferences, and Sherry will actually be available for one-on-ones if you’re interested in speaking with her. You can email her at sherry@sherrywalling.com. It’s spelled like the wine, S-H-E-R-R-Y. And if you’re there, be sure to approach sherry and I and say hi. We always love talking to listeners. And those dates are April 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th in Las Vegas. And there are still a few tickets available for the conferences. | | Sherry Walling: | Vegas, baby, Vegas! | | Rob Walling: | Yep. It’s going to be fun. | | Sherry Walling: | Speaking of hyperactive. | | Rob Walling: | Oh, Vegas? | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah. Vegas. | | Rob Walling: | It makes all of us ADHD? | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah. That is what it feels like to have ADHD, to be in Vegas. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. It’s like the volume’s up to 11. |
In this episode Rob talks about why you should find a crew, how to find a crew, and why it is critical to your success as an entrepreneur. He shares how he has met his crew throughout the years and divides them into 3 different roles.
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Rob Walling: | If you enjoy the Zen Founder podcast and feel like you get some value out of it we’d love a five star review in iTunes or Stitcher or Downcast or whichever podcatcher you use and even more, we’d love it if you’d head on over to support zenfounder.com and pledging even $1 or $2 an episode is a huge help towards keeping us on the air and keeping the show at the highest quality possible. | | I’m flying solo again this week I received some positive feedback about the episode playing long ball that I recorded a couple of weeks ago, Sherry’s at south … By South West this week in Austin, Texas, meeting up with some important folks and exploring opportunities and doing fancy business type things and so here I am, sitting in a closet that’s turned into an office just recording for you. | | This week I’m gonna be talking about finding your crew, how to find your crew, why you should find your crew and how critical it is to your success. | | So I’m actually enjoying these solo episodes and it’s not often I get to sit and kind of diatribe for 14, 15 minutes, but it’s funny how many detailed thoughts like this that have occurred to me over the years that I’ve always wanted to put into a blog post and just don’t have the time to spend the two or three hours, well I should say two to eight hours for me to actually get it published and the quality that I want, so here I am someday maybe these will become blog posts but for now these are kind of off the top of my head types things I am putting together outlines and following on them so that there is a decent flow to the episode, but these are things that I’ve been thinking about for a while. | | This week I wanna talk about finding your crew and what I mean by that, you know when I saw your crew, what I mean is like three to five people who are really going to be all in with you on your entrepreneurial journey so this is not your spouse, it’s not your kids, it’s very, very unlikely that it’s anyone in even in your extended family, that’s a possibility but I would doubt it. These are three to five people who are gonna support you, who are gonna be either a mentor, a peer or in the long run, a mentee and it’s a small group of people and that’s why I call it a crew, you know there’s this concept that Seth Godin talks about where it’s find your tribe and I do think you need to find your tribe and you probably define your tribe first before you go try to find your crew ’cause your crew’s probably gonna come out of that tribe. | | When Seth Godin talks about it he’s basically saying, “Find the people who are doing the same thing you are and love the same things you do and have the same aspirations that you do.”. But what I found is that finding your tribe doesn’t tend to be enough, the tribe is just too big and it’s just too impersonal and I think as I said you’re gonna need to find your tribe and then dig into it and try to find that handful of people who are really gonna be all in with you and this is why you know I’ve long valued mastermind groups as far as I know, the first person to really dig into mastermind groups in the startups space, it was a big thing in the info marketing space, but once I started a mastermind, I was actually in two masterminds for quite some time. | | I realized the value of them, this is 2009, 2010, and I started talking about them on the podcast around 2011, 2012, and really just I feel like there’s a ton of value here with someone else being all in with you and the shared history and not only the advice you can get but the strong network ties and just someone keeping you accountable to what you’re saying cause if you have this tribe of thousands of people if you’re on a forum, if you’re at a conference, it just isn’t the same as having a handful of people who are highly invested in what you’re doing. | | And so if you think about the places you might wanna look for your tribe and thus your crew, maybe you go to MicroConf and you find people there, I know a lot of people connect there and wind up forming masterminds and masterminds aren’t the only way to have a crew you know, I would consider myself in the crew of several people that are not in my mastermind. I think the crew extends out beyond that. | | You may be in a FounderCafe, which is a membership forum that I co-run with my [inaudible 00:04:30] if you go to BOS maybe that’s your crew, maybe you big time into digital nomad stuff and you wanna be in the tropical MBA’s, you know their DC crowd. Maybe you follow patio 11 and you want to be around people like him, there’s bank and biz comps, there really is a long list to this and these are the more kind of entrepreneur, start up-y type events and those crews, if you wanted to go more after the info marketer or conversion marketer crowd you can always look at a place like Converted, which is leaked pages conference trafficking conversion, which I believe is digital marketers conference, I mean there’s just so many places to look but it’s like, attend those events or find their online communities and you’ll start to see the people there who are executing and you can start to build relationships and all, talk about how to do that later. | | The goal here, the reason that I think you need to find your crew is that you wanna normalize what looks to most people like odd behavior, right. As an entrepreneur what we do is almost like deviant behavior because it’s not the same thing that “successful people” do ’cause normal “successful people” they become a doctor or a lawyer, they get a nine to five job, they work there and they get their retirement you know, they don’t bounce around from job to job, there’s just all these things that have just traditionally been the script and that’s not what will make you successful as an entrepreneur and I doubted this over and over and over as I was coming up, I started working professionally in 1999, 2000, after I got out of college and I moved from job to job because I hated all the jobs, I didn’t like the people I worked for or just the job was not a good fit or the company got too big. | | I joined one start up that was great and once we got to about 50 people I was like, “This is way too big.”, so I bailed on that and when I looked at my resume I felt guilty, like I’ve been a job hopper, I’m never gonna find a job, well it turns out that was actually my strength, like it was a strength that I get bored with things but then I execute relentlessly for a certain period of time and then I move on to the next opportunity. | | And so if I had been around other people like all the other entrepreneurs I speak with now, they did the exact same thing. And so if I’d been speaking with Ruben Gomez 15 years ago or talking to Jason Cohen or Heaton Shaw, like they would have normalized that behavior and been like, “Look, you’re an entrepreneur, this is what we do.”, but instead I felt kind of embarrassed and not fitting in with societal norms because the people around me who I was around day to day they kind of … I looked like I was insane you know, I was the guy who would bring a personal laptop to work and at lunch instead of hanging out with everybody, and this is so embarrassing I’ve never actually talked about this in public, I would literally go sit in my car and I would work on my side projects because I really wanted to get out of working full time and this is one hour of the day that I actually had to do that, I’m sorry, go park in a shitty area, I’d wolf down a sandwich that I had brought from home and you know I kind of gave up the coworker interactions, which was a little bit of a bummer, but I made tremendous amounts of progress, this is when I started my blog, this is when I built, I built FeedShot, I was buying small online businesses, I acquired DotNetInvoice during this time. | | They were life changing events that happened and it was because I was taking those times to do what again, looks like insane behavior and if anyone else saw me like I would have been embarrassed about it, but I know entrepreneurs who have similar stories who were similarly basically executing every moment they had and instead of going out on Friday or Saturday night hanging out doing work and do an SEO or cranking out content. And I’m not saying you do this forever, I’m not saying you forego the pleasure of having friends or coworkers forever but at the time I was willing to do to make the sacrifice and to me the freedom of one day not having a job was worth more to me than going out to Chipotle with a group of friends. | | Another thing to think about here is you know, there’s debate about whether you really are the average of the five people that you spend the most time with, I mean that’s kind of a thing that’s thrown around a lot. I personally, even though I’ve googled it real quick and looked through and it doesn’t look like there’s a tremendous amount of data around that, but I personally, intuitively believe that that’s true, that if you spend time with five people for a long time that you just kind of all become similar. So if you’re only hanging out with your friends from high school or from college or your extended family or your friends from your nine to five job or your church or your gym, it’s pretty unlikely that they have the same ambitions you do, right, most people are not entrepreneurial and most people are not gonna understand it and if they don’t understand it, they will question it to the point where you don’t wanna talk about it in front of them. | | I have a bunch of stories of feeling like I was the outlier and like I was doing the wrong thing in like what I wanted to do as an entrepreneur wasn’t a reality and this was before all the blogs right, there was no Software by Rob, there was no patio 11, Kalzumeus blog, there just weren’t, there was no Jason Cohen, there was no … None of these things existed so I couldn’t just go online and find a podcast or a blog that told me that this was okay, it was just kind of me and my own head and let’s say the mid to late 90s even, thinking about how can I bootstrap a business and do this. | | And so, there was one time I’m thinking of when I had a copy of Inc magazine and at the time that was the closest I could get to kind of getting inside the business start up space and looking at the business world and some guy was just ragging on, “Oh, you think you’re an entrepreneur, you’re gonna start some company.”, I was working at a construction company and I remember just feeling like, “Man, yeah maybe this thing really isn’t all its cracked up to be.”. | | And then there was another time it was a couple of years later when I was actually coding Zendeveloper and I was consulting, so this is maybe 2001-ish and I was making really good money at it at the time for how young I was and given that it was what, 15, 16 years ago, I think it was maybe, lets say it’s 70 or 80 bucks an hour and I was booked more than full time so I could work as much time as I needed and so we had … That was when we started outsourcing stuff, like we outsourced our lawn maintenance, we hired cleaners, I had home maintenance stuff, so whenever would fall off the shingles and I would hire somebody to do it, and I had one friend who just made a fraction of what I did in terms of income, and so to him it was this big waste of money and he had no idea that I was booked full time, you know he just didn’t understand, didn’t have any clue about what I was doing and he just would like joking and was ragging on me in front of friends and just being like, “Oh man, yeah Rob’s really handy, he doesn’t know how to fix anything.”. And I was like, “Actually, I do, it’s just not worth my time.”. | | And so, I say these things because I remember them kind of, to be honest, hurting at the time you know, like they kind of stung pretty deep, and in retrospect, I think to myself, I was doing the right thing and I shook it off, so I guess, you know as a founder or an aspiring founder listening to this, if people say these things to you I want you to shake ’em off, you know, you gotta let this stuff go and listen to people who maybe are a bit ahead of you. Do you think that Jason Cohen, Heaton Shaw, Ruben Gomez and myself, do you think we mow our own lawns, do you think I … I don’t shovel my own snow off my driveway, we hire someone to do that, and it’s not because I’m too good for manual labor, it has nothing to do with it, it’s thar I value my time more than the time that I would spend out there worrying about it and instead of doing that, I’m in here cranking out content or recording this podcast or you know, building businesses in essence. | | so all that to say, this is why you need to have exposure and relationships with people who are doing these things because we do tend to think along the same terms and these terms are the things that are gonna make you successful, right. It is that thinking of, “Oh, I’m gonna outsource, oh, I’m gonna work hard, I’m gonna work nights in order to ship this thing. And oh, maybe I do need to leave one job and even take a job with for less pay where I have fewer hours so that I have more hours to work on my entrepreneurial stuff.” | | These are decisions that most people won’t make and so its something that can help you normalize it if you have folks around you who are making those decisions. So that’s kind of the back story of why I think that you need to find a crew and why you need to find a small group of people who are really going through this with you. | | Now let’s dive into kind of some mechanics of it. I see kind of three roles when I think of people in your crew. I see there’s probably the mentor/advisor, there’s peers and then there’s at some point mentees, right. And I think you want between one and three of the first two in your early days, so you want between one and three mentors or advisors and one or three peers. | | Mentors or advisors obviously have been there and they’re able to give you guidance and they’re able to oftentimes give you insights in a very, very brief amount of time that might take you weeks to figure out, they can tell you in five minutes because they’ve been there. | | And then you need your peers because they’re in the trenches with you right, and they’re the day to day accountability and oftentimes you’re not gonna have a mentor who has the time to talk with you for an hour or two every two weeks like a peer might. And there’s a reciprocal relationship, which is also nice ’cause that means there’s … It has longevity. | | And then as you progress, you know let’s say you’re six to twelve months down the line and you’ve had some success that’s when I think that you should start mentoring someone. You retain things better once you teach them and it’s a really good reminder when you start mentoring someone to remind yourself how far you’ve actually come you know, how much you’ve actually accomplished. I actually think you should do this earlier than you probably think you should, I don’t think you need to be two or three years down this road, I think that depending on how fast you’re able to move, that this could literally be a six to twelve month thing. | | Now, again going back to playing long ball, I don’t think you should go out on the internet after six to twelve months and tout yourself as the expert and tell everyone how great you are, but I do think that if you have a really specific thing that you have learned, like I’ve learned how to crank out content and I’ve built a successful small awesome boot strap info kind of marketing business around something, or I’ve learned SEO really well and I’m gonna mentor someone in that or code teach and this isn’t even … I’m not saying do this for pay, I’m not saying do this for money, I’m not saying do it hours a week, I’m saying keep yourself open to the thought or idea that if the opportunity presents itself and you can help someone out even on a one time basis or you can help them out with one e-mail every two months that they’re able to send you and you’re able to give them some advice about something, like you know really well that you’ve become a specialist in, I think you should do that earlier than you think. | | So again those three roles were the mentor/advisor, peers and then ultimately mentees, adding them to the mix as well. So a question I often get is, “How do you meet mentors or how do you find these peers, how do you find these folks?” So what I wanna do is I actually wanna talk, I wanna get personal on how did I meet people who I look up to and I wouldn’t actually … I don’t know that I’d call them mentors in terms that there’s any official relationship, but these are folks who have given me advice in areas where I have lacked and it has helped me get better and grow businesses bigger and get out of maybe some mental cycles or mental spirals that I was in. | | And so you look at someone whom I’ve admired for a long time, like Jason Cohen, he’s the founder of WP Engine, and we met because I was blogging, alright. So I was blogging since 2005 and I can’t remember when he started, it was probably 2007, 2008 and he would read and comment on my blog and then I noticed this guy and I’m like, “Hey, this guy just sold a company, this is crazy.”, and I was blogging about my micropreneur stuff, really small businesses and then I commented on his when my book came out, I noticed it came through that he had bought a copy of it and then he had me do a guest post and we just really connected through blogging. | | And so I was out there shipping something and we happened to run across each other, later invited him to speak at MicroConf and since then I’ve invested in WP Engine, just to date my most successful angel investment by far. So a lot came out of that, you know just me putting something out there. You look at someone like Heaton Shaw, I met him first when we started MicroConf and I’d heard of him and I saw him executing with [inaudible 00:15:47] and I thought that he should speak at MicroConf and then we met and he’s a super cool guy, and he’s very smart. | | And so have I asked him for advice over the years? Absolutely, its a point in time ‘thing where I’m thinking, “Heaton Shaw would know the answer to this, no brainer.”. you get someone like Dan Martell, also kind of … I met him speaking at a conference and then I invited him to speak at MicroConf and he sold three or four companies so you can bet that when Lee Pages was making the offer to acquire Drip, you bet that I got on the phone with Dan Martell and I asked, “Hey, this is where it’s at, this is how I’m thinking about it, what are you think?” Just to get some advice. | | and again, I don’t go to Dan Martell every month and ask advice but there’s just these points In time where my crew, you know these relationships that I built, the people who are ahead of me in certain aspects are able to help me. Patrick McKenzie, he and I met through blogging and through MicroConf and he’s asked me advice over the years and I’ve certainly asked him advice back. | | Those are kind of the pope who, you know … I mean, there’s a whole long list obviously I could go through of people I view as ahead of me in certain aspects and I ask them for advice. In terms of peers or someone who you know, I might advise, and it kind of goes back and forth to be honest, sometimes I’m giving these people advice and sometimes their my peers and sometimes they’re giving me advice, but you know, you get Ruben from BizCatch who he posted comments on my blog and then started asking me questions via email and he was like a charter member of the Micropreneur Academy that became FounderCafe. Justin McGrew with LeadFuze who I’m now an angel investor for, you know he … I think he came into FounderCafe which is our membership site and then later came to MicroConf. | | Jordan Golf from CartHook was on the podcast, I had no idea who he was, started hearing him on BootStrap, I was like, “This guy executes.”. And so then I think we met each other at MicroConf and then it was like, “Hey, if you ever raise around, let me invest.”, so you know these things they just kind of come out of being out there and doing things. You get Adrian Rosebrock from Pie Image Search who I think was originally through Micropreneur Academy what is now FounderCafe, and what I noticed about him is the guy just ships, he just executes you know, he cranks out content and he’d build a business from scratch and that’s impressive, like I want to be associated with and around people who are executing. | | Even if they’re in a different niche than I am, even if they’re doing something totally different, it’s like it’s contagious when people are shipping and it makes you want to help them because you know, I want to help successful people be more successful, like that’s the easy part you know, the easiest thing is making someone who’s doing well, like making them … Helping make them great and you know, I think that’s what you see is if you’re around folks and you see folks who are executing, those are the people you wanna go near. | | Even if they don’t have the success yet, I mean everybody on this list, Carl Brown’s another one from WPSass who I’ve met through MicroConf and I think FounderCafe. All these folks I’ve pretty much known most of them have known since before they had even had businesses you know, since they were aspiring founders years ago and then they started the blog and then they started their software product and then they had a failure and then they had a success. But I feel like I can tell pretty early on, because most of the time you can tell if someone’s gonna make it eventually or not. And it’s just that they keep coming back and they do not give up and they execute, they just get stuff done. And these are the kinds of people that I would be looking for if I were in your shoes, it’s find the people who are shipping and who are moving things forward and then figure out what you have in common, figure out what are they … Should you be in a mastermind with them, whether you should just be friends. | | The more stuff you’re shipping, the easier it is for kind of, other people to hear about you as well. And that kind of brings me to my final point of the podcast is, “So that’s how I found people, those are the examples, but how do you find people?”. And I mean there’s really just a couple of ways that I’ve seen that work over and over and it’s super repeatable. | | First thing is to execute, like do things in public, ship your ideas, ship your audio book, ship your e-book, you know, ship blog posts and podcasts. I think of this totally lame idea I had in 2003, it was called FeedShot, feedshot.com it’s now defunct, never really made me much money, but I launched it to this big viral … It kind of went viral in the blog space and I was a complete nobody and nobody had any idea who I was and I received probably a dozen inbound email inquiries, asking me do I want to consult for them, did I want a job, did I want to partner up with them, I had an idea, how did I build this, can I give them advice and all of a sudden I went from zero to having 12 people asking for something you know. | | And some of them panned out and some of them didn’t but it’s such an interesting thing that when you execute and you ship some stuff in public that things start to happen. So that’s kind of your first step, if you’re not already doing this, this is table six, part for the course, get out there and do it. | | The other way I found that is really good is to meet people both at meet ups and conferences. Meet ups are a little harder ’cause it’s always harder to find folks locally who are probably truly should be in your crew, but conferences is a no brainer, right? You can find the conferences where the people are and go and I hate networking as much as you do, I don’t like meeting new people, I gotta be honest, I’m an introvert, but this is just … It’s one of the ways that works, ’cause meeting someone in person, there’s just no substitute for it. | | And then another way is to do an attendee talk and this is where it gets really scary right, and most people don’t wanna do it, but I’ve seen folks do attendee talks at MicroConf in the businesses software and just rise up through the ranks, right, it’s like they’re probably doing a main stage talk in the next couple of years if they get good reviews on that attendee talk and people have literally like catapulted their founder career right on from the stage and it takes a lot to put yourself out there. | | In fact I think a big turning point in my whole entrepreneurial career was in 2009, it might have been 2010, but I think it was 2009, I was super terrified of getting up on stage but I ran into Jeff Atwood who was blogging at CodingHorror and since I’ve been blogging for a few years we kind of new each other, had never met each other and he’s like, “Hey, love your blog, you should do it at Lightening talk, this is a software in San Francisco in a few weeks.”, and I was like, “Man, no I shouldn’t do that.” And he basically kind of talked me into it and so I went and I did it and I was terrified and it was one of the moments I realized, “Oh man, this is how”… Everybody came up to me afterwards, I had dozens of people and realized this is a way to get over something in my own head and to really start to make a difference and that was one of those turning points where I realized, “Oh, this is what I need to do moving forward is to continue to do things that scare me and get out in public.” | | So the last one I’ll throw out is of course start a blog, start a podcast and don’t do it half-assed, like you gotta ship, but you look at this list of folks that I know and who kind of … I’ve even angel invested in a lot of them. Start a podcast and you know, if you do something well and you get enough popularity I mean, even a show with a few thousand listeners per episode can be really powerful. | | So that’s my take on kind of why you wanna find your crew, what your crew should consist of and then really how to meet these people, how do you find them, how to cultivate the relationships and the last thing I’ll leave you with is to really value relationships over your success, I mean this comes back to the playing long ball episode form a few episodes ago, but the idea is these are the relationships that are gonna be … they’re deep, you know, you’re gonna go deep with most of these and these are gonna be the people that you’re gonna go to the mat for and that you really are gonna be willing to take that … In the middle of the work day if you’re stressed and someone … One of these guys say, “I need to chat for 30 minutes.”, like I’m walking out the door and I’m gonna have the chat with them, you know. | | And I’ve had folks who are like acquiring businesses and it’s a stressful time and the need a response quickly and oftentimes I don’t respond very quickly ’cause they have so much going on, but I’ll drop what I have and I’ll look through the stuff and give them feed back very quickly ’cause I know that it’s important to them, it’s a matter of kind of valuing these relationships over your own success. And obviously I don’t mean … You can take it too far and you can sacrifice yourself and be a martyr and that’s not what I’m saying either, I’m just saying you know, don’t throw these people under the bus just because you have something more important to do or whatever. | | This is kind of the crew or the micro tribe that I think are gonna take you on for the next decade or two. Wow, so that was a lot of information, I realize I had a lot more to say on that then I maybe though initially but I hope this was helpful and we will see you again next week. |
Sherry talks with Karim Marucchi, CEO of Crowd Favorite, about the pains of ending a client relationship and how it can be an emotional challenge. Karim shares some past experiences ending a relationship with a client, how it felt, and his philosophies.
Support ZenFounder
Karim’s Website
Sherry gives an update on her families health problems and its impact on her schedule. She also talks about the importance of deep breaths and takes you through a breathing exercise to end the episode.
Support ZenFounder
Neuroscience News Article
Episode Transcript
| Sherry Walling: | Yeah nothing like an emergency root canal to make the week awesome. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. Yeah that’s crazy. You’ve just never had trouble with your teeth. | | Sherry Walling: | I have very well cared for teeth. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. | | Sherry Walling: | So, it’s been like a month, I think, since we’ve been on podcast together. | | Rob Walling: | I know. Cause I recorded one solo one, or two? An interview or something I don’t even remember but yeah. | | Sherry Walling: | Why was it? I did a couple solo ones. | | Rob Walling: | You did. | | Sherry Walling: | And then we did one together, and then you did one alone, and then last week we didn’t do one. So, yeah it’s been a little here, there and everywhere on the ZenFounder podcast these days. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah for sure. | | Rob Walling: | So updates, where have you been for 3 and or 4 weeks? I guess it’s probably 2 or 3 weeks at this point. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah, I have had the craziest rollercoaster of family health problems. Really like beyond anything that’s ever happened in the life of my family, so, you know, a few weeks ago on the podcast, we talked about the fact that my dad was recently diagnosed with cancer, and just how that’s kind of changed our lives and how that’s shaped how I’ve been thinking about my business and, you know, it’s just the reality that family health stuff effects who you are as a professional and as an entrepreneur. | | So my parents have been here in Minneapolis with us, my dad’s been receiving his care at Mayo Clinic, and in the midst of that kind of major crisis, my brother ended up in the ICU in Montana. So I won’t go into all the details of his story, but basically I’ve made 3 trips in 3 weeks to Montana, in addition to lots of trips out to Rochester to Mayo with my dad. So, I have been in lots of hospitals and spent lots of time in hospital waiting rooms, and that has kind of derailed, well maybe not derailed, but it’s just added, like, a whole new element to my life in the last month. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah you’ve been on and off planes 5 or 6 times in the past 3 weeks. One was a conference, and then you went to Montana 3 different times, and it just feels like kinda you’ve been on the road nonstop. And during that time, while you’re trying to manage everything, and you were, you know, driving your dad to get – it wasn’t chemo yet – but it was to get all the tests and everything, you drank some hot coffee and burned your mouth. | | Sherry Walling: | This is just insult to injury. So I’m – | | Rob Walling: | I couldn’t believe it when you told me. You’re like I burnt my – My mouth hurts. You know, as you’re sitting in the hospital with your brother who’s in a coma. And I’m like, what is going on? Like I drank hot coffee and it was suddenly like are you kidding me? But then it like progressed. | | Sherry Walling: | Well okay, this is how stress works though. Like, I see this in my clients all the time and now I’m just right in the middle of it. So I have these really big stressors happening in my family, and I’m generally like handling them very well. Like I feel very … You know have my whits about me, I feel pretty emotionally calm, like I’m doing, like, great, except I keep having all of these like little crazy things happen to me. So one thing is, I just was distracted and took this big gulp of ridiculously hot coffee, and burned the inside of my mouth. And it got infected, and then spread through the bone of my jaw, and I ended up having this emergency root canal. And it was like … Crazy. Like there’s no cavity in my tooth, there’s no compromise to the tooth, and so the dentist was like, “in twenty years I’ve never seen this happen.” And I was like, “this is the power of stress, right here.” Like that my immune system just wasn’t functioning that well, and … Anyway, so, I’ve had a sore mouth the whole time that this has been happening. | | And then my other symptom of too much stress, or the thing that I’ve noticed that’s making me crazy is I’ve gotten 4 parking tickets in the last 3 weeks. Like since this all began. And I’ve like never gotten a parking ticket in my life. And 4 in the last 3 weeks, so, it’s definitely starting to feel like although I feel really, like I said, just calm and solid and up to the task of handling these challenges, like, all of these things in the periphery of my life are starting to fray, so, you know, that’s how it goes, I guess. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, some minor things are slipping like the parking tickets and the hot coffee. I would guess your mind has been elsewhere, right? And you just kinda, you aren’t paying attention you take this chug of coffee, when you normally would have been more careful about it, it’s been pretty fascinating, so, it’s a bummer. You’re recording this today with, like you said, pain pills, Ibuprofen, and all that stuff. | | Sherry Walling: | And Oragel. Woo hoo. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, oof. | | Sherry Walling: | All I can say though, is I felt totally fine about asking for the maximum dose of nitrous oxide. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, crank it up man. Act like I’m a street race car. Crank up the nox. [inaudible 00:05:42] | | Sherry Walling: | I was like, “look guys, I’m already anxious just give me the juice, please.” | | Rob Walling: | I could totally see that. And for me it’s been, um, you know, during that time kind of holding down the fort at the house, there’s a lot of folks at our house now. You know, as extended family has come to live with us for a short period of time as people are transitioning in and out. And, you know, as it turns out, Minneapolis, or Minnesota in general, but Minneapolis has just exceptional healthcare, and so as we’ve researched this stuff about your family, and should you get care in California? Should they get it in their local town? Should they go to a different relative? I mean just Minneapolis kind of hands down has been the choice, right? It’s like for quality and then for, just the, you know, some of the financial support that they are able to provide, so it’s kind of an interesting thing. Having grown up in California, both of our whole lives really, it’s a trip to see a state that actually has a budget surplus and is able to take care of people when things go sideways. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah, it’s been neat to be here. Again, just because it has made possible some resources that wouldn’t have been possible in other places. | | Rob Walling: | For sure. | | Sherry Walling: | So, how are you kind of coping with the added stress of me being gone a lot, and then having additional people living with us? | | Rob Walling: | Deep breathing. Which leads us into today’s topic. | | Sherry Walling: | Nice. Nice transition. | | Rob Walling: | You like that? | | Sherry Walling: | I do. Actually, I wanted to say one more thing before we jump into that, and that is I’ve been feeling kind of stressed about feeling derailed. Like, all of these family things are happening, my attention is diverted, I’m traveling a lot etcetera. And I just, even in the midst of that, I’ve had lots of new client referrals, and lots of really, I think, positive and focused sessions with people – both with consulting clients and therapy clients – and that’s actually been really cool in the midst of all of this is – I just really love my work and so it’s felt like, even like a nice break from personal stuff to be able to really jump in and be focused on the problems at hand that my clients are presenting. And I think because my attention feels diverted, like I’ve just felt like really, really focused and sharp when I am working with clients. So, I guess that was a little bit of a reassurance to me that all the things that I’ve been building or working toward don’t have to get totally derailed, or undone because there’s like a family crisis, or a health issue coming up. That it’s still possible to sort of balance both, I guess. It’s not easy, but it’s still working out okay. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah that’s been the cool part of when I text you and say, “hey, how did today go?” It’s like when you were sitting at the hospital for 2 days straight, it’s like well it’s kind of lonely, and kind of sad, and it’s kind of these things. But when I would talk to you on the days when you had client calls, even if you were at the hospital most of the time, you would say, “I just had this amazing call today, like I really helped somebody,” or “I really impacted what they’re up to, and, you know, their lives,” and so that’s been nice to hear. I really haven’t heard you tell me, “Oh, I had a really bad client call today cause I was distracted.” That hasn’t happened at all, you know? I mean it seems like it’s been where you’ve been able to come alive and continue to be fed a little, yourself. Fed may not be the right word, but to at least have a feeling of real accomplishment, and like you’re still contributing to the world. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah. Using my brain, using my training. I’ve also, you know, taken steps to make sure that I am not having client calls when I’m really, really tired, or on a travel day, or … So I’ve moved sessions around more than I normally would, but I think that that – my clients have been patient with that, and then I think it’s worked to their advantage. Because when I do have the call, I’m really on, I’m really focused. | | So, one of the things that has been helpful for both of us during this season of additional stress, has been to be really careful and intentional about taking deep breaths. And every time I talk about this with founders, it’s like, I kind of anticipate the eye roll. Like, wow we’re talking about this? But yes, we’re talking about this. And one of the reasons that we use deep breathing or relaxation training, in many, many realms of psychology or mental health intervention, is because it is a super powerful, easy thing that you can control, that can help manage stress and calm you down really well, and really efficiently, in a moment of either emerging panic, or just a high level of distress. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, and what I like about the article that you sent over. It’s on neurosciencenews.com, and we will link it up in the show notes. It’s called The Rhythm of Breathing Effects Memory and Fear, and they basically did studies on this, which was – this, of course, for my left brain self was kind of like oh, I’m into this. You know, there’s at least some data here. I had never realized that this was based on anything more than, kind of, you know, common practice, or how it makes us feel, but I mean – and which, is fine – It doesn’t necessarily always have to have data and be studied, but with something like deep breathing, like you said, since it’s typically an eye roll type of thing, seeing some data behind of how deep breathing impacts how you process things, and then they kind of go into a little explanation of why that might be the case from an evolutionary perspective, I was intrigued by. | | Sherry Walling: | Oh, and to jump in on that, there is a tremendous body of research, actually around the power of breath, or meditation. Primarily from a neurological perspective as we look at how those kinds of adjustments in our physiological regulation modify the brain’s function. So, yeah we can post lots of resources, but there’s a very extensive body of scientific literature that talks about the importance of breath as a relaxation strategy. | | Rob Walling: | That’s cool. Do you often peruse neurosciencenews.com for your pleasure reading? | | Sherry Walling: | I do, yep. | | Rob Walling: | Nice, you’re one of those. | | Sherry Walling: | Yep. | | Rob Walling: | That’s why it’s good to have you on the podcast. | | Sherry Walling: | Well it’s sort of like neuroscience pop culture, to be honest. It’s not – | | Rob Walling: | Like this article is based on a very academic study, they have the abstract, right? And it’s like, the paper’s called Nasal Respiration and Trains Human Limbic Oscillations and Modulates Cognitive Function. And as I read the abstract I’m like whoa there’s no chance I’m gonna be able to get this, but Neuroscience News seems to have turned it into much more of a palatable article for someone made perhaps of my intelligence level and education, but what I like about is I don’t feel like it’s the People Magazine version, right? It’s not the 4 second soundbite that’s really like well that’s not actually true. It seems … it feels to me like, perhaps, they represent it pretty well. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah, it seems pretty scientifically sound. | | Rob Walling: | Cool. Do you wanna pull out of this article, or did you wanna step into other stuff? | | Sherry Walling: | Well, you know, I think just a little bit of the science behind deep breaths when we are … when our stress response is activated, from an evolutionary perspective, from a functional perspective, our respiration is fast and shallow because we are preparing to fight or flight. We are, you know, needing to respond very quickly and make quick decisions about threat in a very limited amount of time. But the importance of deep breath is it sort of undoes all of that. It activates the parasympathetic nervous system, which, the main function of that is to calm down. To return the body to homeostasis. So, because most of us live in sort of this chronic state of stress and anxiety, many of us are often taking very shallow, quick breaths, because we’re often [inaudible 00:13:14] living in elevated stress. So, by taking the moment to really slow down the breathing, we’re kind of signaling to the rest of the body that all is well, and that it’s okay to turn off that acute stress response. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, which is just fascinating. I mean, as I was, you know, I’m looking at the diagram in this, the article and it has … points out the amygdala, and it’s specifically talking about parts of the brain that are impacted with the fast breathing vs. inhaling vs. exhaling, and you know just the impact it has is really, it’s crazy to see it at that level. So it’s actually, you know cause you always know – I know that when I breathe deeply and when I breathe slowly, I calm myself down. And I often do that before, if I’m getting stressed at all, you know? Or if I’m getting nervous about something, you know, if I’m gonna go up on stage and sometimes I feel nervous, sometimes I don’t. But if I do, I do the deep breathing and I know that it works for me. But to see why it works laid out like this is really kind of interesting to see that that like micro level. | | Sherry Walling: | Like I said, there’s so much science to this, so much physiology that’s happening when you are breathing slowly, I mean, you’re just creating all of this expansion in your chest, you’re circulating air and blood better, you know, there’s lots of things that are going on. | | But one of the things that I have been interested to learn about, both in my work as a psychologist and my practice of yoga, is that most of us kind of walk around with this shallow breathing, but we also do most of our breathing from our chest, which is not the best, calmest way to breathe. When we talk about breath that really calms you down, we’re talking about diaphragmatic breathing, or breathing into the diaphragm, which is of course that – is it a muscle? I don’t know, whatever it is, at the bottom of our lungs that’s responsible for helping to expand and contract our abdomen with our breath. | | So one of the major practices of yoga is diaphragmatic breathing and moving breath all the way through the torso, and not stopping just at the chest and at the throat. And I think, again, this is particularly helpful in moments of anxiety because many of us feel this sort of constriction in the throat. Sometimes, you know, if you’re getting ready to go on stage, or you’re getting ready to have a hard conversation, you might even get some hot or redness in your neck, your chest feels tight. It feels more difficult to breathe. You might be more aware of that shallow breathing, and a great intervention is to just really work intentionally to move your breath all the way down to your diaphragm. So you, sometimes I’ll even put one of my hands like over my belly button, and then I can feel for whether or not my belly is moving. So as you inhale, if your belly rounds, then you’re breathing into your diaphragm. And then when you exhale, you know, your belly button should contract toward your spinal chord. But if your belly isn’t moving and all of your breath is happening in your chest, then you know you’re not engaging in that diaphragmatic, calming breath, in a very efficient way. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, and I would guess most people listening to this, cause I do it, I, you know, do the shallow breathing. Especially when I’m working, when I’m sitting down working for 8 hours. Like it would be so great to without effort or without having to think about it to naturally do the calming breathing, but I don’t do it and I would guess most people don’t as well. | | Sherry Walling: | And it’s one of those little adjustments. I mean, breath is sort of interesting because it’s an automatic response, right? It’s something that we do without intention, but unlike our other reflexes, we have some behavioral control over it. Like, we can’t really will our heart to beat faster or slower, but we can change our rate of respiration. It is something that we have some behavioral control over. So, making those little tweaks, even taking a minute and sitting with one hand on your belly, and practicing. Even just sitting at your desk, breathing into your diaphragm, breathing all the way through your torso, is really helpful. And I love this as a technique because you could do this relaxation exercise, you can do this technique without anybody knowing, you know, you don’t have to hum or chant or do a full meditation mantra, you can just simply give your attention toward your breath, for even, like, five breaths. And even in 4 or 5 breaths kind of change the way that your body is responding to stress in that moment. | | Rob Walling: | I get the feeling that you want to lead us through a breathing exercise right here on the podcast totally live, don’t you? | | Sherry Walling: | Oh, on the spot. | | Rob Walling: | I knew it was gonna happen. This is something you do with clients, right? Cause you seem pretty good at it. I mean you’ve done it up on stage at [inaudible 00:17:59] and I heard you do it a few times and I’m like huh, this is actually coming out very natural like she’s done this a lot. | | Sherry Walling: | I do it with clients and I do it, I did it when I was teaching yoga a lot. [crosstalk 00:18:08] | | Okay, so, yeah let’s do this. Are you sitting down? | | Rob Walling: | I know, yes, so you … I’m not gonna respond cause I don’t want people to think that you’re talking to me, you’re actually talking to the person listening to the podcast. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah. Yeah. You know, if you are in a place where you can close your eyes, sometimes that is helpful. If you’re driving, or caring for kids, or doing dishes while you’re listening to this podcast, please keep your eyes open. | | And just take, maybe your left hand and place the center of your palm right over your bellybutton. And just take a moment to kind of feel into your torso. And then if you’re able to, depending on what you’re doing, take your right hand and place it just under your collar bones on your chest. And just take a moment to kind of quiet your mind. And then on your next breath, breathe in through your nose, and feel the air – the oxygen – entering into your nose, moving down through your neck, through your chest, and all the way down expanding into your belly. Almost like you have like a balloon in your belly that’s inflating. And then on your exhale, first press the air from your bellybutton, and then let it travel all the way back up the way that it came in. Belly, ribs, through your lungs, through your chest, through your neck, and out your nose. And just take a few more breaths like that. Maybe even count, count to 4, count to 5, intentionally slowing your breath so that your inhale and exhale are even. | | And just notice how it feels to pay close attention to your breath. If this is maybe something that’s hard for you to focus on, you can attach a word or a phrase to your breath. So I will often, when I’m needing to calm down or relax, I will say in my head as I inhale, I will say, “inhale to be calm, exhale to let go.” And it’s a little sentence that takes, you know, 4 or 5 seconds to say, but then I match the rhythm of my breath to those words. So you have the double combination of elongating your inhales and your exhales, but also then attributing meaning to the inhale and the exhale. | | So if I could kind of summarize these quick techniques we talked about: hand over the belly. Moving the breath all the way into the belly, visualizing the breath’s movement through your torso all the way down to your belly. Counting to slow down your breath, or attributing a phrase or a word to your breath, both to slow down and to kind of get some positive thoughts in your head. So that’s a quick primer on relaxation breath, and again it usually only takes a cycle of 4 or 5 breaths to really feel some sense of calm or relief. If you’re really in a highly anxious state, it can be helpful to lay down on the ground, and let your body really be anchored to the ground, you know, or your office floor, or your bedroom floor or wherever you happen to be. And then, do this breathing exercise with your whole body sort of focused on the breath aspect of your body’s functioning. | | Rob Walling: | I’m not saying anything because I’m so relaxed. That was really good. | | Sherry Walling: | Hey thanks. Maybe I should do this professionally. | | Rob Walling: | It seems like you might have a future in talking to people – and helping them calm down. | | Sherry Walling: | Am I gonna be able to do this in [inaudible 00:22:38] again, or … | | Rob Walling: | Not now that you did it on the podcast. You can’t do the same material, you’ve gotta keep coming up with new stuff. | | Sherry Walling: | I know. Can’t be a one trick pony. Breathe guys, just breathe. |
In this episode Rob talks about “playing long ball”, thinking about as a founder or significant other of a founder, how to stay in this space for the long haul. He highlights three points to achieve this and goes into details on each.
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Rob Walling: | So I needed an opener for the show, and I Googled “podcasting jokes,” and I guess the big joke is that most podcasts don’t have big audiences, or don’t have audiences at all. A bunch of the jokes are things like “What did the podcaster say to their audience? Is anybody out there?” And “what do you call a podcaster with an audience of one? Successful.” So while these jokes are not funny, it did make me thankful for you, our listeners. We have thousands of listeners every week, and we really appreciate you hanging around with us and sticking with us through these journeys. | | We know that some of our shows are Sherry and I getting on the mic and talking about things we’re going through; other times it’s really instructional, educational, and then other times we’re interviewing successful people to find out what makes them tick and how they’ve done it in a sustainable fashion. This week, Sherry is on the road, and she’s actually dealing with multiple health issues in her family as well as doing a lot of one-on-ones at a conference on the West Coast, and so I’m flying solo, and I think it’s going to be awesome. | | Rob Walling: | So this week, it’s just me, as I said in the intro. I’m going to be talking about playing longball, thinking about, as a founder or significant other of a founder, how to be in this game for the long term. I’ve picked three points that I want to talk about: the first one is valuing relationships over success. The reason that I find this so important is that I see founders who basically value their own success over the relationships around them, and they’re willing to either burn relationships or just burn people in general over this. | | What I’ve learned over my 20 years, almost 20 years as an entrepreneur, is that you don’t become successful without relationships. It is such a monumental task to climb up this tower and reach the top and have some success as an entrepreneur, and at a certain point in my career, I thought that you could do it alone. I thought that I could accomplish this without anybody’s help, and the further that I’ve gone along, the more I’ve realized, there’s an old African proverb, it says “If you want to go fast, go alone; if you want to go far, go together.” | | That’s how I think about this, is like, playing longball in entrepreneurship and not just coming in and trying to do something for one or two years because you want to make some money or you want to create your job. That’s not a sustainable approach to this. If you want to do it, value your relationships. And what I mean by that, there’s a number of things. I’m going to talk four of five different things that you can do to make sure that you’re valuing the people around you and you’re building relationships in a way where you’re not using people and where you’re not screwing them over. | | So one thing is not to steal other people’s ideas. This is widespread, it’s insane how many times I’ve said something or written something or done something in a talk, and I will literally hear someone say it a couple weeks later in their own blog and act as if they came up with this, they stumbled upon this thing. This is stuff that I’ve been thinking about for years, I’ve been blogging about, very irritating. What’s funny is it doesn’t matter if someone, maybe if they quote you or if they use your idea, as long as they say “I heard this from this person.” Like, if you’re going to take other people’s ideas, give them credit. | | I’m very, very careful about this. I try to be exceptionally careful. Whenever you hear me mention, fund-strapping is an example, which is a word coined by Colin from Customer.io. I use “fund-strapping all the time, and every time I say it, I reference back to him. When I talk about integration marketing, that’s a term that I coined, but I actually stole the idea from Ruben Gomez, and he’s well aware of that. If you watch any talks where I mention it, I say “Yeah, I stole this technique from Ruben Gomez.” Actually, I steal most of my good ideas from him, but I give him credit when I do that. | | I’m not making this about me and how I do things, I’m saying in the long-term, the more people’s ideas you steal, the more people you’re going to piss off, because people notice. This is not some little secret world where we can hide off in our little cloisters and no one notices. We’re all in a pretty public space now, especially this small start-up ecosystem. So if you get a reputation for stealing others’ ideas, it isn’t cool. | | Another thing is don’t burn relationships over petty things. If someone steals from you, someone screws you over, if someone is just dishonest, then all right, let’s talk about ending relationships or at least distancing yourself from that person so they don’t have influence on you. But I have had multiple conversations in the past couple years with founders, you know, we’re sitting trying to do kind of a business dealing, whether it’s, maybe it’s speaking at a conference or whether it’s some little business dealing. We’re all running seven-, some eight-figure [SaaS apps 00:04:54], so money, little amounts of money are not a big deal. People will push things to the point of anger over some $200 charge or a $200 something. | | We’re having multiple phone conversations about this, and oftentimes I’m thinking to myself, “Are you (beep) kidding me that we’re sitting here having this conversation? You have wasted so much of all of our time; as founders, it’s extremely valuable. We’re running these big businesses with employees. Like, here, take the money.” I’ve gotten to the point where, if we start having conversations now about petty things, about small amounts of money, I will pull money out of my wallet and give it to people, because it’s a way of showing, like, “Don’t be petty. I thought our relationship was worth more than this $100 or $200.” | | So the advice here is just to think, it’s not to let people push you over, it’s not to let people take money from you, but it’s to think before, think about the value of a relationship before you think about asking for something that, in the long term, it shows that you’re thinking short-term if you’re thinking about a $100 or a $200 thing. If you’re thinking long-term about relationships and what they’re actually going to yield you and what you can give to someone, it’s worth a heck of a lot more than that over the long term. | | Continuing with this “valuing relationships over success,” you know, people aren’t dumb. Don’t bullshit them. You can get away with bullshitting someone a few times: you can talk someone into something, you can use your charisma, your influence or whatever to convince them of something, but people know what you’re doing. You hear about people with Steve Jobs, how he would bully them in or force them to do something and talk them into it; you can do that, that’s fine, if you have that power. But you hear about the people with Steve Jobs and they said “Yeah, and then later I regretted it. And then later I was pissed off at him. And then later I hated him.” | | And it’s like, you know, what are we valuing here? Is you getting someone to do something worth more than the human relationship that you have with them? In the long term, if you are not Steve Jobs, if you are someone who is trying to build businesses and needs your reputation and you’re looking at being around for 10, 20, 30 years, and you didn’t start Apple and then come back to Apple and revitalize it, then you’re going to be in a precarious position. I have seen, I have a couple founders in mind right now who think that they are, they think they’re a little better than they are and they talk people into stuff and they pressure them, and then their reputation is severely tarnished. | | I was actually talking to a friend of mine, a colleague, and it was funny, he brought this up and he said “Hey, do you know so-and-so and so-and-so?” And I was like, yes, and he says “Yeah, I really don’t like those guys.” I was like, “Wait, I thought that you were all kind of rolling in the same crew.” And he’s like, “No, these people, I feel like it’s transactional. I feel like they’re using me. I feel like they try to talk me into stuff. I feel like they try to pressure me into stuff.” And it’s like, man, I feel exactly the same way. This is why I’ve distanced myself from those people, because they’re always on the take, you know? It’s take-take; can you promote me, can you help me out, can you help me do this? | | It’s a trip. It may seem like you’re getting away with it, but what you’ll notice is that people will distance themselves from you. You may not even notice that at the start, but in the long term, there’s only so many people doing this, it’s a pretty small world. People aren’t dumb; don’t bullshit them. | | And the last point of this, I realize some of this has been a little negative, but I think I’m kind of fired up about this relationship thing, because I’m watching people think so short-term that they are burning relationships. They burn it with co-founders, they burn it with a colleague, they burn it with an employee, they burn with an investor, and I’m thinking, there’s almost never a reason to do that. People really sacrifice their relationships, and I think that if you’re thinking you’re going to do this, you’re going to be an entrepreneur, you’ve really got to stop and think about that. | | The last point on this valuing-relationships is, decide who you’re going to go to the mat for, and then go to the mat for them when it counts. This is all about loyalty, right? It’s like, if you say that you’re going to back up your team, if you say you’re going to back up your co-founder, and then when it hits the fan, you basically make them clean up the mess or you kind of bail on them or you blame them, then you’re really going to piss people off, you know? I have memories of being on vacation and basically a toxic customer was bullying my team, as an example. And I go to the mat for my team, and nobody’s going to do that. | | So I came in and it was just a shitshow, and this person was rude and it was not good. And I fired the customer, and it brought a lot of heat down on myself; it was just a big debacle. But I’m willing to do that for my team, because I’ve decided that I’m going to go to bat for them. I’m going to go to the mat for them, and I’m going to do that for my family, and I have certain friends, and in my mind, it’s pretty solid who I’m going to go to the mat for. When the time comes, I’m willing to sacrifice the time, anxiety, money, what it takes to really back them up. I think figuring that out in your own mind is something good to know, and hopefully you know that those people will go to the mat for you. | | What I’ve found is the more that I’m willing to do that and the more I’ve shown that over time, the more that others are willing to back me up. That’s kind of this point, right, of valuing relationships over success, is that it’s not just that you’re giving, but that some of that giving comes back to you. | | The second point I’m playing longball is to realize how little we all actually know. If you look in the start-up space, it’s becoming this, it’s kind of been this echo chamber for a while, but it’s getting even worse. I don’t know how many more Medium posts I can take from a 26-year-old kid who’s built a, maybe a six-figure business or maybe even he got lucky, he or she got lucky and built a seven-figure business, and they probably don’t actually know that much. They probably got a little lucky, they probably worked really hard, but then to trumpet that they’re an expert and they can teach everybody. They have this one success; one success doesn’t make you an expert. | | Realize how little we all know. I am still someone who tries to humble myself when I’m around other people, and to figure out what are they better at than I am, right, and to do less talking and more asking of questions. Problem is, everyone claims they’re an expert these days. Everyone’s this teacher online: “Hey, I’ve done something once, now I’m going to teach that.” I find that that is actually not a good thing. I think in the greater start-up ecosystem, it’s been good that the world has become more transparent over the past 10 or 15 years, but I think the pendulum has swung too far, and my take on it is when I see, again, you know, someone who’s had single success trying to write a book or start these courses or claim that they’re an expert, the problem is that people believe them, and they can’t tell what’s the mirage and what’s not. | | What’s funny is, after doing whatever you want to call it, six, eight, nine, 10 different businesses, it’s pretty obvious when I hear someone talking, it’s like, “Yeah, they think they know everything, but they actually are kind of two steps out of the crib, basically, and they can be an awesome founder, an awesome entrepreneur, but they need a few more years before they’re really going to know the mistakes that they could have made, what they stepped around, what actually made them successful, because when you’ve had one success, you just don’t know yet. You don’t know what you could have done wrong, and you can’t teach other people because they’re going to have different mistakes that you’ve never encountered. How can you guide them? | | I guess what I’m saying here is, in realizing how little you know, is to take a posture of humility and don’t be the person who’s shouting at the top of your lungs about something that you’re so sure of that really you’re not actually sure of, because you’ve only done it once. I think the other thing that could be improved about the whole start-up ecosystem is people aren’t reading other people’s stuff and then saying “Oh, I want to build upon that. I want to stand on the shoulders of that person.” It comes back to giving credit. | | I will see, over the course of these years, I’ve been blogging since 2005, so we’re talking 12 years. I’ve seen blog after blog, post after post, tweet after tweet, whatever it is, kind of saying the same thing, and it’s like, we get it. We get it, you ran these ads and this is how you built the business. Or you’ve had this realization of just “building a business is hard,” but it’s the same thing. We just saw that post from someone else six months ago, and so why are we rehashing the same stuff? | | This is where people talk about it as an echo chamber, where it’s like, we’re all saying the same thing. Can we not get on with the fact that yes, most start-ups fail, and yes, it’s hard. Get to a next level where, like in academia, they actually move forward. They progress from the 1950s to today; people are quoting, giving credit, and then they’re building on the shoulders of giants. I would love to see the start-up space move in that direction, and the way to do that is for us to maybe be a little, each of us to be a little more humble. | | If you’ve ever spoken with Dharmesh Shah, the co-founder of HubSpot, or with David Cancel, co-founder of Drift, or Jason Cohen, founder of WP Engine, these people are wildly, wildly, like, eight, nine figures-successful. Yet they’re always asking questions when you talk to them, they know that likely, you’re probably smarter, or at least more experienced in some area of your life. When I talk to them, they’re always asking me questions, even though they are wildly more successful than I am. | | It was so funny, I was at a speaker dinner and Brian Balfour, who’s one of the best growth people in the world, in my opinion. He used to work for HubSpot, and now he’s running a start-up marketing school in the Bay Area. But we started talking and he starts asking me questions, and he’s like “Well, what do you think about this?” and genuinely listening for my opinion. Then he asked me “What books have you read recently that I’d be interested in?” It’s like, are you kidding me? This is awesome. | | This is how I approach things, and it’s so cool to see that really successful people, not the ones who are kind of showing they’re successful online, but the people who I consider truly successful, are the ones who take a posture of learning and a posture of humility, and I think we could all learn something from that. I think that if you are playing longball and you want to be around the start-up space and help it become better, but also help yourself become better, realize how little you know and ask more questions, rather than claiming you’re the expert on something that you’ve done once. | | The third and final piece of playing longball is to work at a sustainable pace. When I first started, I remember thinking that “Man, in X months I’m going to have something out, and I’m going to have a few grand a month in earnings from a product.” And I realized that you should think in years, not months, and then as soon as you get to the point where you have a little bit of money coming in, you should start to think in more like a decade or two than years. | | The reason is that it’s pretty easy to burn yourself out, especially as you get older; you get into your thirties, you get into your forties and you have less energy, you can’t work at the same pace that you did when you were in your twenties, and so I think that focusing and working hard when you are working is extremely important. And then I think shutting it off when you’re not is extremely important. | | I think that, to be honest, in the early days, and I go through seasons of this, but if you’re not working and you have a lot to do, then that time should be reserved for relationships, for time with your significant other, your kids. This may be controversial, but I actually believe you should turn off your hobbies in the early days of a start-up, or at least for a season here. I used to go through three- to six-month seasons, these windows of time where I would work a full day, then I’d make dinner, hang out with the kids, hang out with Sherry, and then I would start up again at 9:00 that night and work till midnight or 1:00. | | That’s not sustainable forever, but it was sustainable for a few months here and there, and I got tremendous amounts of stuff done. I didn’t do it every night, but I did it maybe two, three nights a week, and that was the early days of growing HitTail, the early days of growing Drip, early days of Micropreneur Academy. These are the game-changing, it’s writing my book, these are the game-changing moments in my entrepreneurial career. What’s funny is they are actually, they’re non-sustainable periods of work, but I didn’t do them forever, which made them sustainable, if that makes sense. | | You may have a slightly different working style, where you just want to work 40 hours a week. I don’t know if, that’s not how I work, and I don’t know if that’s something, if you’re going to actually get a start-up off the ground, doing that with a full-time job and aLl that. But you’re going to need to turn off the TV, and I would say shut your hobbies off for the time being, and then you can work-work-work for three months, and then you’ll start to feel like you’re doing too much, and then you can kind of step back. | | Overall, I think this is maybe a bit more of a personal pace and a personal kind of work orientation that I’m making it out; I’m telling you how I did it, but the overarching theme here is work at a sustainable pace and think in terms of years when you’re thinking about your career. Maybe not a single start-up, right, you may not work on this single e-book you’re launching, or your little stair-step WordPress plug-in or your first SaaS app or whatever. | | Maybe that’s not a decade-long thing, but if you want to be a founder, if you want to be an entrepreneur and you want to make this a living and do it for the rest of your life, which I think is amazing, I think it’s tremendous, I think it brings you freedom, I think it allows you to have purpose, and I think it allows you to have strong relationships. I think you should go for it, but think about these things: value your relationships over your success, because in the long run, relationships are what’s going to make or break your career, and realize how little you actually know, take this posture of humility, ask questions, and don’t claim to be the expert if you’re not. | | And then work at a sustainable pace, figure out what that looks like for you and for your family, and I think that second part is pretty important, right? What will your significant other, what is he or she able to work with, how much time can you afford to spend with your kids and making that really, really good time, but then going back to work when it’s needed? | | So I hope this has been helpful, kind of running solo here without Sherry, and I think the plan is next week for us to get back on the mic and continue doing kind of our normally scheduled programs. I’ve actually enjoyed the solo-Sherry episodes that she’s done over the past few months, when we’ve been in places where we can’t record, so hopefully this one comes off even half as good. Talk to you next week. |
With a recent cancer diagnoses of a family member, Sherry and Rob talk about some the ways they will be impacted including added stress, unknown schedules, and trouble planning future events. They give some strategies they will implement in order to help the family deal with the situation.
Support ZenFounder
In the middle of both Rob and Sherry traveling to attend conferences, Rob gives a brief update on what they are up to as well as a podcast recommendation featuring Sherry.
Support ZenFounder
The Psychology of the Entrepreneur,with Sherry Walling
Sherry talks about the importance of appreciating what is good about life and to honor, protect, and love things that are beautiful in response to the ugliness that is going on in the world.
Support ZenFounder
Webinar with Cory Miller
Rob will be at SaaStr next week
Sherry will be at the Bureau of Digital’s Owner Sumit
Sherry’s recent podcast interviews: Freelance Transformation Unemployable Office Hours FM Versioning Show Episode Transcript
| Sherry Walling: | Hi, folks. This is sort of the season of Rob and I being here and there and everywhere. It’s just me on the podcast today. He is getting back from one trip, and getting ready to go on another trip, and so we are sort of passing like ships in the night. | | If you are at [Sastar 00:00:15] next week in San Francisco, then be sure to connect with Rob. He is there and I’m sure he would love to talk with any ZenFounder fans. Then I will be in San Diego in the middle of February, the 20th through the 22nd, for the Bureau of Digital Owner’s Summit. If any of you are heading that way, I would also love to chat and connect in person. | | January was a busy month for me in the podcast world. I got to be a guest interviewee on several podcasts, several of my favorite podcasts. I got to talk with Brian Clark of Copyblogger. He interviewed me on his Unemployable podcast and we talked about psychology and entrepreneurship. I also got to be on the Versioning Podcast and talk about imposter syndrome and then had such fun talking with Carrie Dils on OffHours.FM and Matt Inglot on Freelance Transformation. | | If you’re not totally bored of my voice and my perspective, then definitely check out those interviews, as well as check out some of the other episodes that those great folks are putting together for the founder community. | | Sherry Walling: | So, we just returned from a family vacation a little bit north of Cancun. We had a lovely time together as a family spending lots of time in the pool, in the hot tub, and the resort where we were staying had a swim up bar. Which, my kids thought was the most amazing thing ever. And they had a whole kids menu with lots of different milkshakes, smoothies, drink combinations for kiddos, and my kids were living in the lap of luxury. | | And we all had a really great time. I think one of the things that made it particularly good is that the resort really was really well-oriented towards children. And so, they had great programming for kids, which allowed Rob and I to have dinners alone, and alone time here and there. Allowed us time to work out, to do a little bit of work when we needed to, and also spend a lot of time with our kids. So, it was a really good trip overall. | | Although, I have to be honest, the fun for me got a little bit derailed by some of the political events happening in the US. Particularly the executive order about refugees. And my intention is not to be political here. I feel like there are lots of talking heads talking non-stop about all that’s happening in the US government. And so I don’t know that I necessarily have anything brilliant to add or to contribute beyond that, but, I think for me on a personal level, being in this beautiful resort, and on vacation, it just felt very dissonant with the reality with the kind of suffering that so many people are experiencing. | | And I didn’t feel guilty about being there, but it did certainly give me pause. I think the refugee topic in particular is very personal for me. I spent a chunk of my college experience living in West Africa in Ghana, and then as a graduate student, had the opportunity to go back and work in refugee camps in Ghana. So, I spent a summer volunteering in the Buduburam refugee camp outside of Accra. Which at that time, housed people who had to flee their homes because of the war in Liberia. And it was both a place of hope because people were a little bit more safe, and a place of tremendous desperation. | | So my job that summer was to work with teenage girls who’d been assaulted. Usually in the camp, or in the process of resettling, and who were now mothers to children through rape. So, lots of psychological difficultly as you can imagine. But, my job really was to talk with these girls about how to try to ensure the basic safety of themselves, their own bodies, as well as the children that they were caring for. I think it was very eyeopening to me as a young person to really be part of that community for the summer. To learn some of the songs, learn some of the catch phrases, to do my best to understand and connect, and be helpful. But also really face the reality that their lives are very, very different from mine. | | My early experiences in West Africa have kind of led me down this path of routinely going to places that have been affected by war, and looking for ways to be helpful, but also looking to learn from people who live there about how to recover and heal from terrible, overwhelming experiences. So I spent a lot of time in Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador, a bit of time in China, and Vietnam, and these moments, these places have shaped my view of the world as a very inner-connected place. | | In the course of those experiences, I’ve seen tremendous suffering, and both personally and professionally heard stories of tremendous terror, and loss, and fear. And even though it is easy for me as highly educated, well-resourced person to be very comfortable in a suburban existence, it’s been really important for me over the course of my personal development to be someone who stays involved and aware of the places in the world where there’s suffering. | | So in the past year, I’ve been able to do some low-fee psychology work for the International Refugee Assistance Project. And this organization, I’ve talked about on the podcast once before at least, and they are really in the middle of providing the legal aid, along with the ACLU, to people who are in the process of seeking refugee status in the US who have been stalled in that process. And they particularly focus on providing legal assistance to the most vulnerable refugees around the world. So, people who are living under an eminent threat of death because of their work translating for US forces, children who are unaccompanied members of the LGBT community who are coming from countries where, that is not legal, and it’s not safe. | | And so, I’ve been intimately acquainted with these stories and to be honest, I’m kind of losing my mind about the administration’s policies. I won’t go on a rant here. I think those of you who agree with me know why, and those of you who don’t agree with me, I’m probably not gonna change your mind so that’s okay. But, it seems like the current state of the US government, will demand all of us to become a bit clearer about our convictions and the ways that our actions align with what’s important to us. | | So, many sources, many people are calling for action. For participation in protests and marches. There’s always agencies to donate to, to contact members of congress. All of these are really important activities and I think are gonna be increasingly meaningful. For those of us who want to have a voice in administration that’s feeling not particularly accessible at this point. But I also think it’s going to be important for me, and for all of us, to find ways to fight both apathy and fatigue. | | And I guess I would say as a ZenFounder psychologist, now more than ever it’s important to take care of yourself. Of your mind, of your body, of your soul. Even if your pretty head’s down, doing your business, growing your company, managing your family, spending time with your friends, this macro-level stress, this sort of stress that’s now out there in the environment, that’s an added stressor compared to what maybe some of us experienced a year ago. It adds another layer of anxiety that again, whether we’re paying a lot of attention to or not, it’s there. It’s there for each of us. So, over the episodes of the podcast, Rob and I have shared a lot of strategies for self-care. | | Obviously there’s the ones that your mom, or even your family doctor are gonna remind you about. Getting good sleep, eating healthy food, drinking enough water. That cleansing round of kickboxing or yoga. There’s also a need to dive into the topics and tasks that demand our attention with focus and action. So there’ll be what I often call these time-ins, where we decide we’re gonna go heads down about a certain issue. Or heads down on a certain task. And really discipline ourselves not to be distracted, not to check the newsfeed, to turn off all the notifications, and really allow for intense focus. | | And there’ll be times when we need to step away when it becomes too overwhelming, and we feel our anxiety rising, and we reach a point where our thoughts and actions are no longer productive. Where maybe we risk apathy, or we risk breaking something apart, or hurting a relationship. So, I think it’s a time where all of us kind of have to call on our deeper, most mature selves, to take good care of ourselves so that we can frankly, take good care of the world around us. | | One of the strategies that is most important to me, and in self-care that I thought a lot about when we were on vacation, is to be intentional about pursuing beauty. And I have a fairly broad definition of this, but for me, it often means getting up to watch the sunrise. Spending time at a lake, or in the trees, or near the ocean. Making time to stroll through a museum for an afternoon. Sitting down and really enjoying a good cup of coffee. Really tasting it, really letting all of my senses experience it. Or maybe you do that with a good meal. Your favorite meal. Sometimes it’s enjoying the color and the texture of a cashmere scarf as I tend to be doing here in Minnesota. | | So there’s lots of ways that you can pursue, or experience beauty. And I think the deeper meaning for me is that the pursuit of beauty honors what is good, for the sake of being good. It honors what is made well, or what is naturally occurring. And I think beauty, when we really let ourselves have moments of being immersed in beauty, we catch our breath. And we go a little bit outside the burdens of our lives. And maybe it’s even approaching a little bit of transcendence. Beauty takes us outside of ourselves. We get to float in the power, or the sensory experience of something else. But I think that beauty also invites us deeper into ourselves. It invites us into a deeper experience of ourselves by letting us dwell in what we love, or what we find joyful or pleasurable. | | So, you might have your own definition of this thing that I’m calling the pursuit of beauty. For me, it was incredibly healing to just be in the Caribbean and watch my children play. To watch them splash. To really take in the color of the water. And the taste of the salt and the sensation of sort of the noise of them playing. Their laughter. I also sort of to [inaudible 00:11:43] of my darling husband, made everybody in the family get up one morning and watch the sun rise. And it was a little bit cold and windy, but it was awesome, and just completely spectacular. And, whether they’ll remember it or not, I will remember it. and I think that it’s this defiant determination to appreciate what is good about life, and to protect and honor, and love what is beautiful. That is going to be kind of a secret superpower in response to the ugliness in which we now find ourselves. So that’s one of the things that I’ll be working on, and doing moving forward over the next months, years, is to practice good self-care and particularly as it relates to seeking out and enjoying that which is beautiful in life. | | So hopefully Rob will be back with me next week. We also have some great interviews lined up for the weeks to come. Corey Miller and I are on for our webinar on Tuesday, February 7th, at noon central time. So, you can find that link on the show notes. So, whatever your political persuasion, or how you feel about what’s happening in the US right now, I hope you find a few moments to dwell in beauty. To experience beauty, and to find some restoration and peace in that moment. Thanks for listening. |
Today there are so many ways to communicate and interact with people, either in person or digitally. In this episode Sherry and Rob share their insights and thoughts on why being in a room with people can be so powerful.
Support ZenFounder
Sherry’s Webinar
Episode Transcript
| Rob Walling: | In a couple of weeks, you’re co-hosting your first ever webinar and it’s with Cory Miller, who’s the founder of iThemes. What are you guys going to be talking about? | | Sherry Walling: | Well, we’re going to be talking about all things mental health. Cory has a deep commitment to mental health in the founder community and has been really open about talking about his experiences with depression, which you can listen to I think on episode 97 of this podcast. And so, yeah, Cory and I just thought hey, we love talking about this, we care about this, let’s have a conversation and invite people to be part of it. I think we’ll focus on, as we tend to do, some strategies to really help build up resilience and wellness and hopefully people will get a lot of value out of it. | | Rob Walling: | That’s cool. It’ll be I’d imagine a conversation and then some Q&A at the end? Maybe an hour? | | Sherry Walling: | Yep. That’s the plan. | | Rob Walling: | Sounds good. On February 7. It’s a Tuesday at noon central time. Where do people go if they want to sign up to hear about it via email? | | Sherry Walling: | We will put the link in the show notes and then you can also keep up with what we’re doing on Zen Founder by signing up for our mailing list. | | Rob Walling: | ZenFounder.com | | Sherry Walling: | You have to forgive me. I’m a little bit under the weather; I have a little bit of a cold. Probably partially a product of having way too much fun this weekend and staying up late and running in the rain and, anyway, all kinds of shenanigans happened. So, my body’s a little bit like whoa, slow down, calm down, get some rest. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. And that was a result of you and I heading out to Los Angeles for a couple of days. We were invited out there by Karim who runs Crowd Favorite and you had met him at Copper Press. He invited a bunch of friends out and we didn’t think that we were going to be able to make it and then kind of last minute we were able pick up some cheap tickets and find somebody to watch the kids just for … You went out for, what? About four days? And I went out for just 48 hours and so we had someone stay a couple nights. And I think you and I both came away with the realization of the value of being in a room with people and that’s what we want to talk about today. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah. It was … You know, in addition to being just a delightful time with some really cool, smart, interesting people, I just felt like there was so much benefit to having taken the trip and spent the time sitting around in the living room chatting, sitting around in restaurants, sitting around at breakfast, going for walks. Even though we were really together quite a short time there was a lot of connection and I think both personal and professional benefit that came out of that time together. | | One of the things that I think was really important in actually being in the room together as opposed to connecting in the digital world is that there’s an ability to notice nuance, to notice sort of a twinkle in the eye, to notice humor, to notice body posture that I think allows you to build connection faster. You just have more data to take in when you’re in the room with someone. I was meeting a number of these people for the first time and I think to sit across from someone and really have the chance to talk but also to really see them, you just get a sense of who that person is much faster than you would if you were interacting with them digitally without being able to really not only see their body but experience all of those non-verbal cues. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, for sure. And it’s a lot easier when you’re looking someone eye-to-eye and having a conversation to figure out … To kind of assess what commonalities you have. And you can cover so much more ground. Virtual relationships are cool in the sense that you get to know people over time and you can see a lot of stuff transform with your business and their business and their lives and everything, but the in person stuff you can cover so much ground so quickly. Because it’s not like you’re going to get on a phone call or a Skype call with this many people. I mean, even over the course of months it would just be bizarre, right? It’s just how we do things socially. | | And so, getting in a room and having a drink and just talking to one person and then the next and then the next and you can find quickly … Out of this room of 15 people you can find the folks where you can bring them something of value and they can bring you something of value and the folks who you’re going to want to build relationships with. And maybe the value is just that you’re going to be friends and it’s almost like … It’s like an informal or unintentional speed-dating, right? Or like speed-conversations or speed-analyzing of each other. | | I mean, I think we’re doing this … You don’t do that intentionally, but that’s just what happens at these things. I find that pretty quickly you can tell … Ah, man, this person and I have a lot in common. I really like the way this person asks questions or carries themselves in a conversation and they’re interesting and they’re doing interesting things. Or pretty quickly you can tell, wow, this person and I don’t have a lot in common. Or our conversation are very different. And I think it’s … You know, being in that room gives you the ability to do that with a lot of folks in a small amount of time. | | Sherry Walling: | And I think we’re having this conversation on two levels. We’re talking both about the value of professional relationships, because many of these people are in technology, they’re connected to people we’re connected to so there’s a sense of professional networking that’s happening. But then there’s also the sense of just the personal hey, I enjoy you, let’s share are many meals together as possible over the course of our lives. | | I think part of what you’re talking about in terms of this speed-dating-ish; it does happen on both levels. Who is going to be a person who is going to be beneficial to be connected to professionally and who is doing things that I’m interested in doing? And what resonance do I have in terms of the kinds of goals that I have or the values that I have as a professional? And then, again, who do I just want to hang out with? | | Luckily, sometimes those can co-exist in the same person. | | Rob Walling: | Another value of being in a room is that if you are good in conversation or you’re good on stage … Because I view being up … Speaking at a conference as a way of being in a room with a lot of people at once. Maybe a little more one-sided than hanging out and having drinks with folks, but if you carry yourself well you have the ability to make a much stronger and more memorable impact by being in person than any other medium I can think of, including video, including audio, including written word. There’s just so much more that people can get out of looking you eye to eye and videos of talks don’t do the same thing as when you’re in that room and the splash you can make. | | I think this has been evidenced by … Certainly in my career, the times where I feel like people are just fast fans is when I go and I just nail a talk up on stage. Of all the blog posts, the hundreds and hundreds of hours I invested in a blog posts and the thousands of hours into audio content, standing up on a stage for 30 minutes can do more than someone reading huge [inaudible 00:07:19] of that. | | And we’ve also seen it the same with you recently doing your conference talks. Those talks led you to build out a very fast network in this space and have led to many more invitations to do other talks. I think without you being up on stage those things just wouldn’t have happened nearly as fast. | | Sherry Walling: | There’s just more that happens in the brain when you’re in the room with someone. One of the ways of talking about this is physiological co-regulation, which is where your body reads someone else’s body. You read not only their non-verbal cues but you read their emotion. And through mirror neurons and other physiological mechanisms there’s a way of you feeling what they feel that just cannot happen virtually. There is this deeper physiological connection and it does create this sense of intimacy, you know? Whether you’re watching someone give a talk or you’re sitting down across the table with them, you are reading and sensing what their body is feeling and that bonds humans together. | | Similar to the podcast I did last week about touch. There’s just this powerful way that we, as a species, have of reading each other that has very little to do with words exchanged or ideas exchanged. But the physical presence of another person and the way that our brains are designed to read and interpret those nuances. | | Rob Walling: | Another real value to being in the room with other people is building the shared experiences, you know? It’s being able to say oh, remember that time you did that crazy thing? These things become stories and they become legend and, in a way, they can become the good old days a little bit. I know that I still talk to my Drip team and we talk about all those conversations back at the little Drip office in Fresno and wax poetic about the lunches we used to have. And we’re still making memories today. It’s not like we still don’t go have lunch together now and again. We still don’t architect out new features. But there’s something about … Either it’s a very memorable weekend or it can be a memorable couple years where you are building shared experiences with other people and there’s a tremendous amount of value that just can’t be replicated by participating in the same forum online, you know? Or some other virtual way. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah, you’re writing a narrative of a relationship. That time that you … The memories, the experiences, the inside jokes, you know? How someone takes their coffee or their weird idiosyncrasies in the ways that they eat food or whatever. You’re building a set of experiences and those shared narratives or shared experiences are what binds family members together but certainly binds friends together. And that, again, I think is an advantage of putting in the time and energy to get in a room with someone, whether it’s at a conference or at an informal gathering like we just went to because you’re going to have an opportunity to make a memory together. And that does mean putting yourself out on the line a little bit and maybe instigating a little bit of trouble, in my case, but being present and being willing to be a little bit edgy or at least be yourself in a way that is memorable and connecting. | | Rob Walling: | Before we continue with the other … We have I think three more points to make in terms of the value of being in a room with someone. I want to step in here as kind of a … You know, I’m a software developer; I’m an introvert. I actually don’t enjoy being in a room with people for the most part. I have to kind of force myself to do it. Certainly, a glass a whiskey helps with that, but I’ve realized over the years that my desire or lack thereof to actually do it is always paid off by A, the relationships and B, just the time spent in the room. I’ve rarely regretted afterwards having been in a room with people. It’s just the dread of doing it beforehand; of oh, man, do I have anything interesting to say? Am I going to like anyone? Is this going to be boring? | | It’s just all the same stuff and you think that this will be something that you can talk yourself into and I guess that is, in essence, what I do, but I think there’s a lot of folks listening to this podcast who probably feel the same way of like I just don’t like big groups of people. I don’t like having a lot of conversations and meeting a lot of new people at once. And I totally feel the same way. I guess I’ve just seen such value from doing so that I force myself to do it. And like I said, it’s not something that … For the most part, it’s not something I regret. | | The times I’ve regretted it is when I put myself in a room with a bunch of people who I don’t have anything in common with and who I find I go from person to person to person and there’s just nothing there; there’s no connection with anybody. And then I feel like I’ve wasted my time and bunch of my energy because I only have so much inner-personal energy to give in any given week. | | The other times is when I get trapped talking to someone that I don’t connect with but that they’re kind of talking my ear off. I have learned, just as you should listening to this, you learn a couple tactics to get out that; of needing to go check on something or needing to go get a drink. I mean, there’s just different … Needing to go to the bathroom. And these are all legitimate ways of breaking up a conversation. I think that those little skills of learning to engage quickly and assess if the two of you have something in common and then dig deeper if you do and to kind of cut bait if you don’t. I think it’s something that took me a very long time to learn but now that I have learned it, I enjoy or at least feel like I get more out of being in a room with a lot of people whereas even five or ten years ago … Really, before I started running MicroConf, which is where I learned a lot of this, I would just make the same mistakes over and over and being in a room with a lot of people was never that helpful. | | Sherry Walling: | And to follow that rabbit hole a little bit, I think that there are some things that you can do to help prepare yourself. One is to actually think through a couple of conversation topics that are good go-tos. So, things that are publicly shared experiences like favorite TV shows, food, the shared experiences of raising kids, asking people about their family life. I think with a little bit of preparation you can usually anticipate, okay, who are the people that are going to be there that I may have the best chance of really connecting with and how do I strategically put myself next to them? And then what kinds of conversation points or questions am I really comfortable talking about that I think most people have some opinion or shared experience of that I can at least instigate a conversation that’s likely to go somewhere or likely to connect? | | I think it’s also okay, and I do this a lot because I get really overstimulated by noise, it’s okay to say oh, wow, it’s really loud in here. Do you mind if we step into the hallway or come over into this corner so I can hear you better? And create as much space for yourself and some planning for yourself to be successful in those kinds of interactions. | | Rob Walling: | And although we didn’t have it this weekend because it wasn’t a conference, I found that it’s nice is everybody has a badge with a name on it and then at MicroConf we have an Ask Me About … And there’s this empty thing that you fill in yourself when you get your badge. That’s always kind of nice to be like, hey, tell me about Word Press or tell me about your Sass App or tell me about this or that. That can always be helpful conversation starter to try to assess what somebody’s up to and what they’re thinking. | | I’ve found … I mean, depending on the crowd, if I’m talking to a bunch of founders then it gets pretty easy, right? You’re like hey, what are you up to? What company are you running? What’s your situation? What’s your history? You can get into it pretty easy. If I’m talking to spouses of founders, I will often say how do you spend your days, you know? Because you don’t know does the person work? Do they not? What interests them? And you’ll find that if you ask that question, how do you spend your days? They will tend to gravitate towards a thing that is most interesting to them and then you can figure out how do I express some interest in this? Is this an interesting conversation topic for me to continue with? | | I also found that wearing … I wore a sweatshirt with the Drip logo on it this weekend kind of by accident, to be honest. It was my nicest clean sweatshirt and several people were asking me about that. One guy said, hey, you’re wearing a Drip sweatshirt. What’s up with that? And I was like well, I actually started it. And then he … It was funny, he was like yeah, I went to MicroConf. Everyone at MicroConf loved Drip. And I was like yeah, I run that, too, actually. And so, it was this kind of funny ability to then dive in of like oh, okay, so then you do that podcast and he can frame up in his mind who I was and what I was up to. | | Sherry Walling: | I think as challenging as it can be to put yourself out there in these ways and go to the effort of being in the room with people, friends spawn friends. The more steps that you take to get connected, that can often lead to a wider network of connections. I think lots of solo founders, especially, really kind of like the lone wolf experience but clearly that doesn’t work because you have to have a network from which to draw your customers. You have to have a network from which to draw some advice and counsel. You just simply cannot be good at everything. | | In addition to most of us enjoying friendship and needing, at a really basic level, human connection, getting connected in a network and taking the steps to make friends and then get to know your friend’s friends and your friend’s friend’s friends; that can be a really powerful took both personally and professionally. | | Rob Walling: | Friend’s friend’s friends? That’s a lot of layers. | | Sherry Walling: | You know, I’m a social butterfly. | | Rob Walling: | This is a … Is this friendfluence? That’s the powerful and often underappreciated role that friends past and present play in determining our sense of self and the direction of our lives? Where does that come from? You pasted that in the doc. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah. I think the title is a little bit cheesy but it’s from a book by Carlin Flora and it’s one of the books that has come across my radar recently because it talks about adult friendships. I think often, at least in my world, in the psychological literature when we’re talking about friendships we’re talking about the role that friendship plays in adolescent and young adult development. But this book really looks at the importance of friendship over the lifespan. Those of us in our 30s and 40s who are no longer out partying late at night most times and who have very busy schedules and friends are, perhaps, less of the focal point of our lives as they may have been other times, this idea of friendfluence, though, is pointing to the role that friends play over the course of the lifespan and really shaping our sense of self and who we are. | | I have really experienced that living in the different communities that I’ve lived in over the past ten or 15 years. The difference for me as a woman with a PhD and a family who’s living in Boston where there are lots of high-achieving young professionals and lots of conversations about academic topics versus the experience that I had living in Fresno, California, which is, for a large city, one of the cities in the country with the lowest level of education and very, very few people have their doctorate degrees. At least in the community of people that I was attached to, it’s a less common experience for women to have advanced degrees and also be parenting. | | Anyway, maybe I’m saying that too delicately, but I found a lot of resonance and friendship and community in a place like Boston or now in a place like Minneapolis. And the friends that I had really helped motivate my work. They helped really push me forward in terms of not only valuing the kind of work that I was doing or the kind of work that I was interested in, but also providing new ideas, providing ideas for books to read, providing contacts. Whereas living in a community like Fresno, many of my friends were really great conversation partners about parenting and children and those were really important friendships as well. But those various friendship groups really, I think, helped shape the focus of what I was thinking about and talking about and doing at those various points in my life. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. I mean, I think this was a big motivator for me. In 2005, I started my blog, Software By Rob, and the only other person I knew who was blogging about self-funded software companies was Joel Spolsky and there was no one else that I could find. And then, I think it was a year or two later, Patrick McKenzie started and other people followed suite. | | I realized that having the relationships, even though I wanted to do the solo thing at the time … Having the relationships and the community build around the blog and then to start the podcast and then to start the conference. I mean, it all towards being more and more social and more and more connected. The relationships that I’ve built and that we’ve built … Been able to build within our community and just to build that community from scratch, in essence, and connect to those people has been life-changing both for me in terms of my motivation and in terms of what I get out of it, but also for the hundreds and/or thousands of people who’ve been impacted by the conference and the book and the podcast and the blog and everything. | | I think, almost inadvertently, I’m a big believer of this whole concept of being in a room otherwise I wouldn’t run three conferences in a year. But I hadn’t maybe put this much thought into why. I’ve just seen the results of it and realized that, boy, the more we do of this, the more people are impacted, including myself. | | I think the last point we were going to talk about today about the value of being in a room is this theory, it’s called the weak ties theory. There was actually a research project done on this in the 70s. In essence, what they found was that professionally, many weak ties are better than a few strong ties. This actually goes against who I am, right? I’m a strong ties person and I’m a small group of small ties. I have a few close friends. | | In the 70s, the study was done on getting a job and it was looking at how you tended to find your next job through your weak ties rather than your strong ties. There’s a bunch of reasons for this that we won’t go into here, but I think these days it would be like if you’re starting a company, you’re going to find contractors or employees or you’re going to get that next affiliate deal or you’re going to find that mentor and get the guidance through your weak ties. Your strong ties can help, but you’re just going to have so many fewer of them that you can maintain. | | You know, I see people all the time who have these large weak tie networks, which is more acquaintances, right? They’re not friends you hang out with all the time. But building up that network and having it in place, I think, has kind of been … I won’t say proven to be a much better approach, but I do think that some of this research that’s out there is pointing in that direction. | | Sherry Walling: | And I think, to pick up on the research train but from a slightly different angle, hands down the most important buffer or thing that protects us when bad things happen in our lives … Hands down it’s social support. It’s the connections that we have. My cousin is struggling with cancer and her sisters and people in the family made T-shirts and we’ve recorded videos and there’s a blog and there’s all of these places of contact where people can communicate their support for her and she can receive their support and she can communicate and reach out back to them. | | That’s what’s true. When things get difficult, when your business, fails, when someone gets ill, when things get really stressful, it’s do you have people who will bring you casserole? Do you have people who will help? Do you have people who will listen? That’s one of these really important measures of mental health and wellness is to know deep in your own heart that you have this network of people who have your back should you need it. Hopefully, you don’t. But should you need it, they care about you enough to show up in a variety of different ways. | | Both from a business perspective and a personal perspective, finding ways to get in a room to cultivate friendship, to cultivate professional relationships; it’s a really valuable investment and it’s really going to be worth your time and energy. | | Rob Walling: | Hopefully, today we’ve given you our insights and thoughts on why being in a room with people is so much more powerful because often being a room requires a pretty major sacrifice. Like, whether its of money to pay for airfare and hotel, whether it’s of time, to take time off work or take time away from your family and your startup to go to a conference or to go, like we did this weekend, and fly halfway across the country, be away from our kids for a couple days. But I think that the further you dive into this and you develop some skills around it and then are around the right people and people who are helping you see the better side of yourself and who you can connect with and who can motivate you and show you a good direction to go and you can do the same for them … I think the value over time is one of those things that you … You sow this in the short term and you pay a price, but that what you reap in the long term is a vastly larger harvest. |
In this episode Sherry talks about the science of touch. How it contributes to your mental well being and the well being of those around you. Also discussing the power of giving/receiving emotional comfort through touch.
Support ZenFounder
Sherry’s Webinar Signup
References:
Berkeley researcher Dacher Keltner on Touch
Johns Hopkins neuroscientist David Linden on The Science of Touching and Feeling at TEDx
Episode Transcript
| Sherry: | Hey guys, I’m super excited to announce that I’m doing my first webinar. I am going to be talking with Corey Miller, who is the founder of Ithemes, and who was recently a guest on this podcast. I think episode 97. Corey is really interested in mental health. He talks openly about his own experiences of depression. He and I are going to lead an interactive discussion around the topics we talk often about on this podcast. About mental health wellness, how to stay connected to yourself, to your family members, and we are doing this on Tuesday, February 7 at noon central. We will put a link in the show notes for you to register for this free webinar. | | Another way to keep in touch with some of the things that Rob and I are doing right now, is to join the ZenFounder mailing list. We do not send a lot of email, I promise. It’s a great way to keep in touch with place that we’re speaking or different activities or events, like this webinar, that we might be involved in that you might be interested in checking out. | | Sherry: | So I’m alone today on the podcast. I confess, I did a little bit of click bait on this episode, because the topic that I want to talk about is touch. I’m a little bit nervous everyone is going to say, “Okay, she has totally gone too far. This is the epitome of touchy feely and we’re no longer interested and we’re no longer gonna listen.” But, I promise that some of the content that I’m gonna talk about in the podcast today is super incredibly important to your own mental health and well being, as well as to the mental health and wellbeing of people around you. | | So, please hang in there for my one sided conversation about the importance of touch as a wellness superpower. I started thinking about this over the last weekend. Those who listen to the podcast know that we are living in Minneapolis and it’s been cold and we’ve been inside a lot. Our youngest son, who’s six, was just really having a hard time with, I think, how little exercise he was getting and how little rough and tumble play he was getting. It’s been so cold they’ve kept the kids in at recess. So he’s been drawing at recess, which is fabulous, but this is a kid that needs to just move around. | | So, on Sunday, I spent probably 45 minutes, maybe an hour, just tickling him and wrestling with him and throwing him up in the air, and just doing this big body play that involved a lot of touch. Over the course of that playtime, I could just feel his little body calming down. Almost like he’d been carrying a lot of tension and this was exactly the kind of play and contact with me that he needed, in order to be able to settle back into himself and feel good again. As I was having this experience with our son, I started thinking about how often we, as grownups, especially as founders, just spend our whole lives in our heads. We spend time doing things, planning things, executing things, talking to people about things, and a lot of us don’t have a lot of embodied time and maybe don’t spend a lot of time really in close, physical contact with another person. | | Whether you are in a romantic relationship, whether or not you have children, it’s actually incredibly important that all of us get a certain amount of physical touch, physical contact with someone. This has been a very old story in psychology. We have known there’s really clear, indisputable evidence that touch is essential to the healthy development of a human. Tragically, much of the data about this came out of orphanages in Romania, where children were being appropriately cared for in that they had appropriate nutrients, but young babies were dying, sometimes at a rate of up to 70%. One of the things that made the most important change in their survival rate, was simply having caregivers come and hold them. Young children, especially, will not develop properly without a lot of physical contact. This experience of being held by an adult human. | | The role, the centrality, of touch, doesn’t go away when we grow up. It stays an essential part of our development. It continues to be an essential part of what makes us healthy and well. So to give a little bit of background to this, touch is the first of our senses to develop. Our skin is taking information in through the world. Our first experiences in life are those of being … Of physical contact, hopefully, with another person. It is out most fundamental means of contact with the external world. Just like if you walked around with your eyes blindfolded for a long time, the acuity of your eyes would decrease. Or if you blocked your ears for a long time, your ears would not function as well. The parts of your brain that connect the organ and the mechanics of your ear to sensation processing, would stop working. That can happen with touch as well. | | Our skin is taking in information all the time from the world around us. If that isn’t stimulated, then we can kinda lose some of the sensitivity that we have towards touch. This is actually a super bad thing. Beyond really, seriously impairing one’s sex life or one’s connection to small children, touch is social glue. It binds partners together, it binds families together, friends together. It is essential. There are several studies that show that touch is an essential queue that signals safety and trust. Touch is also essential in soothing. So when you think about soothing someone who’s very upset, you might think about putting your arm around them or rubbing their back or patting them on the back, or something like that. | | There’s almost always this instinctual drive towards physical contact when you’re trying to soothe or calm someone down. Receiving touch can calm cardiovascular stress. It makes the heart rate slow down, the respiration becomes more even and less stressed. Simple touch can activate the bodies veges nerve, which is this really important part of our parasympathetic nervous system that connects the brain, the brainstem, all the way down through our spinal cord and has connection points in all of our major organs. | | So the vagus nerve is really, deeply connected to how we experience the stress response but also how we calm down from stress response. So, touch, via the vagus nerve, via the brain, is intimately involved with our sense of compassion. Of course, touch triggers oxytocin, which is the love hormone. That sense of belonging or connection. So touch is super important in building cooperative relationships. It’s also really important in calming down and it’s important in linking feelings of reward and well being and compassion. So adults who don’t receive regular human touch, who aren’t in physical contact with another person on a regular basis, can develop this thing called skin hunger, or touch hunger. This isn’t a formal diagnosis, it’s sort of something that has been talked about in literature and has flown around the internet a little bit. But it’s a condition in which people are more prone to experience mental destress, depression, anxiety, because they really aren’t getting the level of physical soothing that they need through touch. | | A couple of other little factoids to throw at you to make my case for why this is important. NBA basketball teams, who’s players touch each other more, win more games. It’s an established correlation. I can’t guarantee causation but the level of connection and closeness that’s communicated through touch, as well as the level of support and encouragement that a player can receive from another player, via touch, can be important in overall team collaboration and communication and team success. Teachers who gently pat students on the hand, those students are more likely to participate in class. They’re more likely to speak up. | | So one of the reasons I think it’s important to talk about this is that many of us are living in a touch deprived culture. We have cultural norms around how often touch happens between adults. It’s interesting, they’ve done some research looking at cultural comparisons of how touch is used. These researchers studied sets of friends who were sitting in cafes around the world. In England, friends who were sitting down to have a cup of tea, they touched each other zero times. That wasn’t a part of the friend interaction. In the U.S., people who are sitting down for coffee touched each other twice. But in France, that number shot up to 110 times per hour. In Puerto Rico, it was as high as 180 times per hour. So there are these big cultural differences in what is normative, but it doesn’t necessarily translate to cultural differences in what is needed or what is helpful or what is calming and soothing. | | Obviously, we have these well meaning standards that guide when touch is important. It’s probably no longer the norm for there to be lots of hugging between teachers and students in schools. We regularly don’t have a lot of touching that happens in the workplace. Those standards, I think, are important, because they are designed to protect people. They’re well meaning. Touch is very sensitive, it’s very powerful and can be misused and certainly misinterpreted. So this sense of being very careful with touch, is wise, especially in the workplace. But I think if you, as a founder, really sit down and think about this, you might notice that a little bit more touch might be helpful in your life. Consider the importance of maybe having more contact, more hugs, more holding hands, more pats on the shoulder with your romantic partner, with your children. Even with friends. Coming to a place where you are able to both give and receive emotional comfort through touch, to another person. | | We can also think about the role that touch might play on your team, if you work with people. Of course, touch becomes a little bit tricky with a distributive team, when people are working in different places, you give virtual high fives, but I think some of this research would make the case for the important of a literal high five. The importance of being able to pat someone on the back, literally, actually making contact between your body and their body, provided that’s okay with them. And, allowing both closeness and comfort, because as I said already, touch can be powerful in terms of building up a sense of collaboration and shared experience. | | If this is resonating with you, if you’re someone who realizes that man, you kinda live in your head and you’re kinda rushing from one place, doing one thing after another, one way to really slow down and move yourself from being only a thinking brain to a feeling brain, is to integrate a little bit more touch into your life. Get a massage once a month, once a week, go dancing. Find other places to have human contact. Go to a yoga class, where there’s a lot of hands on adjustments. Join a bowling club, where there’s regular high fives and hugs and celebrations happening. | | Part of being human is to be social beings. To be connected to other people. Just like members of the animal kingdom, who spend time grooming each other, and cuddling each other, those experiences are very good for us, too. They’re good for our emotional wellbeing, and our relational well being. I would argue that they can be really important in cultivating a team that is trusting and works well together. If you’re unsure about the role that touch might play in your professional life, it’s okay to ask, “Hey, can I give you a high five? Can I give you a hug? Can I pat you on the back?” It’s okay to have conversations around touch and to bring that in to your teams in a way that feels respectful and safe for everybody. | | No matter what, though, touch is essential, and touch is important. So, go find someone and give them a hug. I’m pretty sure you’ll be glad that you did. |
Rob and Sherry talk about how to teach your kids about money. They discuss the different money personality “types” and well as some learning goals including saving, budgeting, and investing.
Support ZenFounder
The 5 Money Conversations to Have with Your Kids at Every Age and Stage
| Rob Walling: | Episode 100. You’d think we would have thought of something more grandiose to do, like having 100 people on here giving us verbal testimonials. | | Sherry Walling: | That sounds grandiose. What’s more important than talking about money honey? | | Rob Walling: | Over the past almost two years we’ve been doing the podcast because we do it weekly and we’re up to episode 100. We’ve made our way to where we have thousands of unique downloads per episode. Tens of thousands of unique downloads per month. We have 42 worldwide iTunes reviews, all five star. We have folks who are helping support us via Patreon that support ZenFounder.com. | | We really want to take this time to thank you our listener because without these numbers going up into the right people stop doing podcast. You lose the motivation to do it. Every week as we see the download numbers increase and we see new iTunes reviews come, and we see the money coming through to support the show, it feels great. We want to thank you as a listener and we just look forward to continuing to travel this journey that we’ve traveled over the past couple of years. | | Sherry Walling: | As we mentioned at the beginning, our conversation topic today is about money, about dollars. We have been revisiting this part of our life with the new year, both in terms of thinking about our own family budget and our business budgets and what we want to accomplish financially this year. But the focus of this conversation is how to talk to kids about money, because our kids are 10 and six and they want stuff, believe me. So we’ve had lots of conversations lately, especially around the holidays around resources and how to use them, how to save them. | | What’s a valuable expenditure when you have limited resources. It’s really inspired us to think carefully about how we’re getting our kids ready for money management as adults by getting them started now. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, and so every once in a while I’ll come across a book that is about how do you talk to kids about money and stuff like that. Some of them have been good, some of them have been not so good, but one that I read recently that I was pretty taken by, I felt like it did a really good job of helping me rethink the way that I view how our kids spend money, it’s called The 5 Money Conversations You Should Have With Your Kids at Every Age and Every Stage. I got it in audio format but it’s available in Kindle and in physical. | | We’ll link up the Amazon link in the show notes. The idea and what I liked about this book is I’ve heard in the past allowance versus no allowance, chores versus no chores, how to teach them about investing, how to teach them the values and such. What I liked about this one is that the co-authors have already written a book for married couples about figuring out your own personality type, your spouse’s and then figuring out your compatibilities and incompatibilities and how working together you can figure out how to surmount those, because money obviously is such a big deal in a marriage. | | They adapted that for kids, and so they have these five money personality types that they define in the book. To be perfectly honest, I did not dig into their backgrounds and look at how much scientific evidence there is, because they have whole test you can take and get the personality types, which we had our kids take and you and I will take them as well. Whether the stuff is valid or not, the themes they chose and the personality types they have, they really resonate with me. | | It made me better able to categorize how our two boys think so differently about money. Once they took these tests and it matched up with their personalities it was like, “Oh yeah. There’s something here.” | | Sherry Walling: | Scientifically valid or not it sounds like it was really useful to you. Any tool that gives you better language or helps you to categorize information in such a way that it makes it easier to talk about a pretty complicated nuanced topic then I think it’s a useful tool. We don’t have to worry too much about the scientific validity. I think we can just use it as something that’s helpful and meaningful to you. | | Rob Walling: | These five personality types, the first one is a saver and I think it’s kind of self-explanatory. Someone who tends to feel better when they’re saving money for a rainy day and they look at the future and they think down the line. Second one is a spender, so kind of the opposite. It’s people who tend to spend money, don’t tend to think about savings, tend to get joy out of spending and getting something for that. The third is a risk taker. This is like an adventurer, a deal maker. These are idea people. | | Tends to be more entrepreneurial type folks who are willing to take risks in order to get rewards and they enjoy the thrill of that. The fourth is a security seeker. This one often overlaps … Oh, I should take a step back and say that according to the book each one of us have a primary and a secondary. Security seeker often overlaps with saver because a security seeker is all about the future. They want clear expectations. Think about a child who wants to know everything that’s going to happen over the next eight hours and then if that changes it’s uncertain and it makes them really concerned by that. | | They crave information. They understand delayed gratification. They’re always prepared for things. They like the familiar, often indecisive when thinking about spending money because they don’t want to make the wrong decision. That’s a security seeker. Like I said, it can go hand in hand with saver. It doesn’t have to but in one of our sons, our six-year-old it actually does. | | Sherry Walling: | That is a really, really accurate description of his personality. | | Rob Walling: | That’s what I liked about it. As I was reading it, soon as they say indecisive, stressed out when they spend money, that was like a key point in the book, is that a security seeker is stressed out. Same with the saver. Thought, “Oh, that’s why he says, ‘I don’t know. I don’t know.'” “Do you want to buy that?” “I don’t know.” “You have the money.” “I don’t know if I want to buy it. Should I buy it?” It really stresses him out even at six. It’s like, “Okay. Now I get that.” | | They give you some strategies for how to cope and how to actually help saver spend money on things that they really want and give them time to think about it in advance. Like we’re going to go to the store, think about whether or not you want to spend and then don’t stress about it. That’s what I found was helpful. | | Sherry Walling: | There’s one more, right? The fifth one. | | Rob Walling: | The fifth one is called the flyer and no one in our family has this one actually. A flyer is where money is all about relationships. They’re comfortable with last minute changes, very flexible. They value time with friends the most and they can tend to look flaky in terms of money. They have no interest in money, just the means of how they interact with friends. They were talking about how flyers will often treat all their friends, their buddies to whatever it is. Sodas after school or something. They blow a bunch of money. | | If you as a parent you might be thinking, “Oh, my gosh, this is not … They’re getting taken advantage of. This is terrible.” That can be part of a child and an adult’s money personality. We actually spoke with both of our kids about their personality types. Like I said, all four of us took the money personality quiz and I talked to both our six-year-old and our 10-year-old about it. Let’s hear what they have to say about their own money personality types. How old are you? | | Speaker 3: | Six. Almost seven. | | Rob Walling: | I wanted to talk to you today about money. Do you remember how you and I took a test on the computer a couple of weeks ago and we figured out your money personality? | | Speaker 3: | Yeah. | | Rob Walling: | Do you’re remember what your personalities were? There’s a primary and a secondary. | | Speaker 3: | Yeah. | | Rob Walling: | What were they? | | Speaker 3: | I don’t know. | | Rob Walling: | You don’t know? The first one was … The primary was called security seeker. | | Speaker 3: | Yeah. | | Rob Walling: | That means that you like to think long term and really think hard about your decisions. The secondary was a saver, and that means it’s someone who prefers to save money rather than spend money, because you often have big things that you want to buy later, and you feel like you don’t want to make the wrong decision with your spending. Does that sound accurate? Does that sound about what you think your own money personalities are? | | Speaker 3: | Yeah. | | Rob Walling: | How does it make you feel when you spend money to buy something? | | Speaker 3: | I don’t really know. | | Rob Walling: | Does it ever make you … Do you ever stress out over the decision of what to buy or how much to spend? | | Speaker 3: | Yeah. A lot. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah? That’s your thing, huh? | | Speaker 3: | Yeah. | | Rob Walling: | We’ll be in a store and you’ll say, “I don’t know. I don’t know if I should buy this.” | | Speaker 3: | Yeah. I’ll be like that. | | Rob Walling: | Say hi. | | Speaker 4: | Hi. | | Rob Walling: | How old are you? | | Speaker 4: | I am 10 years old. 10 and a half actually. | | Rob Walling: | I wanted to talk to you today about money. Do you remember the money personality test that we took? | | Speaker 4: | Yeah. | | Rob Walling: | Or I guess you took it on your own a couple of weeks ago? | | Speaker 4: | Yeah, and it came out as risk taker spender. | | Rob Walling: | Risk taker spender. Did you know that you’re the exact opposite of your brother? | | Speaker 4: | Yeah. Polar opposites. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. He is a security seeker saver, which is funny. Do you remember what risk taker means? | | Speaker 4: | Entrepreneurial. | | Rob Walling: | Entrepreneurial yeah. | | Speaker 4: | Because they make businesses and they take a risk. They spend some money to start a business, and if it doesn’t go well for them they could lose money. That’s what a risk taker is. | | Rob Walling: | Right. Yeah. Risk takers their personality seeks adventure. They’re deal makers. They’re idea people. | | Speaker 4: | Yeah. | | Rob Walling: | Entrepreneurs fit into that. You don’t have to be an entrepreneur to be a money risk taker, but in your case I think you probably are. Then a spender is your second money personality. | | Speaker 4: | Yeah. | | Rob Walling: | What do you think a spender does? | | Speaker 4: | Spends a lot of money. Like there’s a hole in the pocket. He or she likes to spend money a lot. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. You don’t have to fit into that but spenders don’t feel bad about spending money. They do like coming home from the store with something, right? It makes them feel good to get something when they’re out or when they’re, I don’t know, shopping and such. Whereas savers it tends to stress them out to spend money. You’ve heard about our kids, now let’s take a look at each of our money personality types. Sherry your primary money personality is a saver and your second is security seeker. | | Sherry Walling: | That sounds right. | | Rob Walling: | Does it? Why do you say that? | | Sherry Walling: | Because I think that I would just much rather have money in a bank account that I can look at and see than spend it towards relationships or being a high flyer, or like there’s something that is very comforting to me about the certainty of what I know that I have. It think in that way I’m fairly risk averse. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. Right. Because like in terms of stock investments and risking money in order to make money that is not something that comes naturally to you at all. | | Sherry Walling: | No, not at all. I don’t know if that’s parts of being brought up in a family where resources were very, very limited, and so there was a really strong orientation toward not knowing when the next crisis was going to happen and trying to be really for it. Or if that’s just more deeply seated within my personality that’s not necessarily a product of being nurtured in that kind of environment. | | Rob Walling: | Right. Well, now if someone knows you today, both you and I we live very differently than we did growing up. Both of us came from limited means I’ll say and if you were to hang out with us for a few weeks here you’d see us hiring baby sitters, going out to dinner and not necessarily worrying about the cost of the food we’re eating or the cost of the show that we’re going to. Both of us value good quality stuff, something we didn’t have when we were young. How do you reconcile that now with being a saver, security seeker in terms of having much more freedom to spend money? | | Sherry Walling: | I think it’s all relative. I mean, yes we’ll go out to a nice show and a nice dinner once maybe twice a month. We actually aren’t people who spend a lot, a lot of money on entertainment. I think relative to the amount of money in the bank account, the expenditures that we have, at least for recreational kinds of things, are relatively small. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. It’s funny, there’s that phrase living within your means and over time our means have gotten larger and larger. We’re able to perhaps be a bit more … extravagant is not the right word because it’s not like we’re going buying gold bottles of Champaign at places, but we do go to nice restaurants and don’t think twice about going to a nice restaurants ordering what you want on the menu. It’s because within our means it’s changed, right? Over the past 10, 20, 30 years. | | Sherry Walling: | Right. It’s still not spending in a way that’s risky. There’s still a big giant cushion between zero in the bank account and those expenses. | | Rob Walling: | Right. Whereas back in the day a $6 sandwich at Subway could put you towards the brink. I know from first hand. Then my money personality my primary is risk taker, which is more the entrepreneurial so that makes sense that my secondary is a saver, which makes a lot of sense. I actually feel like I’m a security seeker as well because the reason that I became entrepreneurial was not because I really wanted to start stuff, it’s because I wanted the security of having income or having more money. I saw that money brought security in a certain sense and that was why I really started businesses. | | Sherry Walling: | You wanted you get more money faster. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. | | Sherry Walling: | To have more security. | | Rob Walling: | I know, which maybe is the definition of a risk taker, is that right? It’s funny. They all tie together in me I think. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah. They do, I think you have a very robust and mature way of thinking about money and handling money. I think all of these components are here within you to some extent. | | Rob Walling: | I think one of the things that is so good about our relationship is that although I have that risk taker thing, so I like to start businesses, which often bring in more money, but I also like to have that money. Left to my own devices I would just amass a bunch of money in a bank account. You bring the side of let’s use that to experience things and let’s use that to travel and to see people and to go to shows and to do that. | | I would do that very, very rarely because I have that saver component whereas you have the experiential component that really isn’t taken into account by these money personalities. You do value experience over just amassing money in the bank, and I feel like we do a good of allowing each other to balance each other out. That if I say, “Look. There’s a money problem, we need to back off.” You’re like, “Boom! Done.” If you say, “Look, we need to travel.” I look in the bank account and I’m comfortable with spending a couple grand to take a trip, boom, done. | | We don’t fight each other for fighter’s sake. We only raise red flags when there truly are red flags like we haven’t traveled in a while and things are going to implode, or we don’t have enough money in the bank account and things are going to implode. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah. I think considering how tricky finances can be for lots of couples I think we’ve done pretty well and gotten off pretty easy in that we both have clear orientations and clear personalities when it comes to money. But there is also a level of flexibility where I have no issues with the risks that you take or your risk taker personality, because first of all I trust that that little pile of security money will be in that savings account somewhere and that’s never wavered. Once that’s there all the rest is play money in a way. | | Like it’s fine with me for there to be lots of risk taking or spending to some extent. I also think that we are okay to spend money but have similar values around how and how much and when and why we do that, so we don’t have necessarily a lot of tension or contention about how money is spent. | | Rob Walling: | Right. It’s funny because you’ll get a package from what is it? Le Tote or Anthropologie or thredUP and you’re always quick to point out like, “Look at this amazing thing I got for 50% off.” Or, “I got these new shoes and they’re hundreds of dollars off.” Like if you ever actually came home with a several hundred dollar handbag that you paid full price for my jaw would drop, right? | | Sherry Walling: | Because it would be so out of character for me. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. You just don’t do it. You’ve always bought at a discount. You had, I remember it was a sweater or a shirt you used to wear when we were dating that you got for 10 cents at a Tuesday thrift store sale. | | Sherry Walling: | 10 cents Tuesday, yeah. The thrift store. Yeah. | | Rob Walling: | 10 cents Tuesday. Yeah. You were super proud of that. Now that 10 cents is maybe a few orders of magnitude larger but still it’s about getting a deal for you. Now it’s about like, “I want something quality and I’m not paying full price for it.” | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah. There’s nothing like getting a pair of beautiful Italian leather shoes for $40 or $50 in my opinion. Coming back to the topic of talking with kids about money, it sounds like it was really helpful for you to think through the kids’ personalities and to talk with them about it. But one of the conversation points that we have been batting around for the last couple of months really is allowance versus no allowance. | | We talked about this on the podcast before but one of the things that I really like about a more entrepreneurial mindset is really equipping kids to have creative ways of earning money or making money that are not allowance based. They have to do something for the money or they have to be creative in some way or sell something, or basically hustle a little bit. That’s been a model that’s worked well particularly for our older son when he wrote a book when he was eight and he still has revenue coming in from that book. | | We’ve also encouraged our kids to just get creative in different ways, whether it’s selling their services as musicians or doing chores for us or for people around the neighborhood. Basically like making a deal and having conversations with people about money and how to get money, and believing that they have valuable services and things that they can do, and that that’s the best framework for them to begin thinking about how money comes into their lives. | | Rob Walling: | Right. For a long time we have done no allowance and the reason behind that was to try to teach our kids if you’re going to make money you need to be entrepreneurial. That was the justification and it hasn’t worked out the way I had hoped. I think you and I both wanted them to do more entrepreneurial things, and for whatever reason it is, they just haven’t done it. We’ve encouraged them. We’ve given them ideas and they haven’t taken it by the horns and pushed it along. | | Perhaps it’s a bit too much to expect from a six and a 10-year-old, especially having moved in the middle of the year so we don’t have the network that we used to have. Often times if you’ve got to be entrepreneurial you might want to make Christmas cards is one example we gave to them. We don’t really have a network here and so it would all be remote. Just different things have popped up. We’ve recently reopened that discussion of allowance versus no allowance and in listening to two or three different books on … Some were just about investing and family finance and then this book about five money conversations. | | They all said allowance is a good thing because it teaches. There’s very specific things that it teaches kids. One of the things I did take away from those books is several of them said don’t make it based on chores. It’s not about work being done. That the work being done is just part of the family. Right? If you’re going to be part of this family you’re going to empty the dishwasher, you’re going to put away your own clothes, and that kind of stuff. Really make the allowance a teaching tool that stands separate from all of that. | | Sherry Walling: | I really like that. I think that’s been really important. I don’t want to nickel-and-dime with the kids or negotiate with the kids around being good citizens in our household. I want them to be people who see that there are things that need to be done and do them. Of course that’s every mother’s dream, but they will put the dishes way. They do have a set list of things that are part of their routine that they contribute to the household and are acts that help them to take care of themselves and their things. | | I don’t like the idea of paying them for that. I feel like that’s just part of life and you just have to do that. | | Rob Walling: | Right. If we find that the allowance experiment does not work out and suddenly we’re like, “You know what guys, we’re not going to do allowance anymore.” They’re going to be disappointing but we don’t suddenly want them to think, “Oh now I don’t have to do anything around here.” Right? They really are … I don’t think they should coincide because of all those reasons. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah. Not if they want to eat here. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. I agree. Let’s listen in on the conversations I had with our six and our 10 years old about the specifics of allowance. Your mom and I have decided that we’re going to start giving you and your brother a monthly allowance. | | Speaker 3: | Wait, monthly? What’s monthly? | | Rob Walling: | Every month. Once a month you’ll get it. | | Speaker 3: | How much money will I get? | | Rob Walling: | We’ve decided to give you and your brother $15 a month each. | | Speaker 3: | For doing stuff like chores and stuff? | | Rob Walling: | Well, see, doing chores is just part of being in the family, right? That’s just part of every day. Putting dishes away. We all are doing work and doing laundry and stuff. This money is actually to teach you something. It’s to teach you how to budget. It’s to teach you how to save and it’s to teach you how to make some money last and not spend it all right away. | | Speaker 3: | Oh. | | Rob Walling: | Or to be mindful about the things that you do spend it on, so that if you decide you want a big LEGO set that maybe you save up for a couple of months and maybe you even do some entrepreneurial things like writing a book like your brother did, or raking leaves or shoveling snow in order to earn more money and get to that LEGO pack faster. | | Speaker 3: | [crosstalk 00:21:50] | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. | | Speaker 3: | Well, I’ve been wanting a LEGO set and it’s about $100, so how much … I already have like 24, so how much will I need? How much months will it take until I can get that? | | Rob Walling: | Well, if you already have 24 and you need a 100, that means you need about $76. That’s about five months if you saved all of your money, but what I think is that if you want to get to that LEGO set faster that we can talk about some of these more entrepreneurial things you can do, like making Valentine’s Day cards and selling them. | | Speaker 3: | Yeah. Probably. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. That’s I think a good way to do it because you can make $5, 10, 15 just doing one of these little entrepreneurial projects. | | Speaker 3: | Yeah. I probably could. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. Your mom and I also want to match every dollar that you save. | | Speaker 3: | What’s that? | | Rob Walling: | That means that if you decide that of your $15 that you want to save it for a while and not spend it, we will actually also give you $15, another $15 to match it. Or if you decided that you want to spend 10 of your dollars and you want to save five, that we will do a dollar for dollar match of that $5. That means if you put in five into your … We’re going to set up a little savings account for you, and if you put in $5 and leave it there, we will put five in as well. | | Realistically, if you were to decide to save it all you could actually have more money in that account. The reason we’re doing that is we want to encourage you and your brother, both, to think about saving a portion of your money. | | Speaker 3: | Yeah. I want to save a few $15 because [inaudible 00:23:35] take a little bit of a long time to get $100 from like a 24 head start. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. Then the other thing is we want to encourage you to give some of your money away to help people. We’re going to talk about taking about 10% of your money, which is about a $1.50 each month. Figuring out if there’s a cause or some people or some type of charity that might need it in order to help others. How does all that sound? Does it sound fun, complicated, stressful? | | Speaker 3: | Stressful at the end. | | Rob Walling: | Why? The giving? | | Speaker 3: | Yeah. | | Rob Walling: | You don’t like that part? | | Speaker 3: | I don’t like giving or sharing anything. | | Rob Walling: | You don’t like giving or sharing? Why not? | | Speaker 3: | I don’t know. I just don’t. | | Rob Walling: | It makes you feel stressed out to have to give some of your money away? | | Speaker 3: | Yeah. | | Rob Walling: | Okay. Well, we can talk more about that. Giving is not something that you should be forced to do because it’s just going to make you resent it. We will talk more in depth about why your mom and I give and why other people give in order to help those around them. Your mom and I want to start teaching you guys a little more about money and we want to do it by giving you each a monthly allowance of $15. The idea behind that is to teach you to budget and use that money over the course of say an entire month to get what you want. | | Then if you want extra money that you would do some of the entrepreneurial things we’ve talked about like writing another book, making and selling cards. You’ve talked about doing a YouTube channel and trying to make money on ads. There’s a whole bunch of ways. | | Speaker 4: | Yeah. | | Rob Walling: | You talked about making a simple video game. A whole bunch of ways where you could do it. If you want something that’s more than $15 obviously you either have to save up over the course of months or you’ll have to earn more money. In addition, we want to encourage you to save so we want to offer you guys each … basically it’s a dollar for dollar match. That if you put money in a savings account that we will match 100% of that. It’s a big commitment from us to do that. | | Speaker 4: | What is that supposed to mean? Like … | | Rob Walling: | If you were to take your $15 and take five of it and put it into a savings account and you’re not going to touch it for a while, we’ll put another $5 in. You’ll net … | | Speaker 4: | Have $10. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. | | Speaker 4: | It’s sort of like teaching me how the bank gives you like … | | Rob Walling: | Interest, yeah. | | Speaker 4: | … 1.5% of the money you have in the bank? | | Rob Walling: | Right. Except we’re going to do a lot more than that, right? Because the bank gives you like 1% over the course of a year … | | Speaker 4: | Yeah, but you’re doing like times two or 100%. | | Rob Walling: | Right, because we want to encourage you guys, and especially you since naturally you have an inclination to be more of a spender. We want to encourage you to save money for longer term goals, and whether that money is for your entrepreneurial endeavors, maybe to fund your next book on your own, of if it’s to save up for a larger LEGO set or a big video game, or something that you may not have the immediately money for, we want to encourage you to do that. | | Speaker 4: | You’re saying that every month you will match what I have in a savings account dollar for dollar? | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. We will match what you contribute that month to the savings account. Does that make sense? If you had $100 in the savings account at the start of the month, you add five bucks, we’re going to add five bucks too so you’ll have 110 and then the next month that would be the same. Frankly, any money you put into a savings account that you’re going to not touch for a while, I’d be willing to match that. | | Speaker 4: | Okay. | | Rob Walling: | All right. Any questions? | | Speaker 4: | No. Not really. | | Rob Walling: | How does it sound? | | Speaker 4: | Good. | | Rob Walling: | Do you think it’s going to be … You think you’re going to learn something from this? Kind of getting a little bit of money at the beginning of each month and having to think through, scheme, plan? Am I going to invest it in something to grow it? Am I going to spend it? Am I going to save something? I was actually thinking about there a couple of companies that you might know about, you and your brother, but you can buy one share of Disney and they make Pixar, right? We’ve been to Disneyland and Disney World. We can talk about that. You’d actually have to save up for that. | | Speaker 4: | Yeah. I just realized that monthly allowance is like teaching me about pay day. | | Rob Walling: | That’s exactly what it’s teaching about. Yeah. Disney stock is at like … | | Speaker 4: | $108. | | Rob Walling: | … $108 so it might take a while to save up. | | Speaker 4: | 109 because it’s 108.98. | | Rob Walling: | Right. Maybe we would wait until there’s a little bit of a downturn, but that could be an interesting venture is to own just a simple stock and watch it over time. Well, cool. Thanks for the chat. | | Speaker 4: | Bye. | | Rob Walling: | From those conversations you can hear I was trying to communicate to the kids like there are some things that we want you to learn from this experience. Let’s maybe pull four … I think there’s four main things that came out of those conversations. Let’s talk through those. | | Sherry Walling: | One of the first goals is to understand saving. Understand delaying gratification, setting money aside so that you can either purchase something larger that you don’t have enough money for today right now, and so that the kids have a sense that those bigger dollar amounts do mean some power. They mean some security, and that the saving both feels good and is helpful in the long run. | | Rob Walling: | Right. That’s why we offered to match their dollar for dollar, their savings. Every adult out there know that’s a pretty generous offer, right? I think over time we’ll have to back that off, especially as they make more money, but we want to especially encourage our older son who is that risk taker spender to think more deliberately about saving. Then we want to encourage our six-year-old, who although he is a security seeker saver, we want him to think long term, because as a six-year-old four or five months that’s a tremendous amount of time. | | A tremendous amount of time to think about saving for something. If we can help him feel better about that and shorten that a little bit even as he saves for something large, because the pride that he’s going to have when he walks into that store and buys it with his own money, it’s going to be huge. | | Sherry Walling: | After saving the second big learning impact is budgeting. Having a sense of how much money is available and allocating money in a way that makes sure that you have enough to cover your expenses basically. Even if your expenses happen to be big lollipops and small LEGO sets. | | Rob Walling: | Right. The idea here is it makes it easier for us now to say, “Look.” When we’re at a store and they want to buy something we say, “Do you have the money? If you do? Do you want to spend it? If you don’t, add it to your wish list.” Then if your wish list allows them to either save up for it or ask for it at a birthday or Christmas or some other event. I like this idea of the kids having more … at this age starting to have more control over it rather than us every time having to make a decision, having to make a conversation, should I buy this for them? Just getting away from that I think is a good thing at this point. | | Sherry Walling: | Thirdly, don’t worry. We’re not giving up on our dream of entrepreneurship in the kids. I think one of the things that having this set amount of money each month might spark, we’ll see, is that I think once you have some spending money and money available you might want more. I think that leads to this natural progression of, “Okay. Well, how do I get more money or the most amount of money for fairly minimal effort or limited output?” I think this leads to those entrepreneurial questions of, is it time to write another book? | | Is it time to get some little neighborhood service going on? We’re hoping that again, having a sense of their own money will spark some creativity and some entrepreneurial motivation. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. I agree. Honestly $15 a month, it isn’t a ton of money. The kids like LEGO sets and they’re expensive, and just a lot of stuff even little iOS apps, they like to buy new games and such. They’re going to have to figure out ways to make more money. 15 a month is not going to be as much as they will probably want to spend and so I’m hoping that that is a good teaching experience in terms of encouraging them towards entrepreneurship. | | I think the fourth learning goal, and I brought this up briefly with our 10-year-old, not necessarily our six-year-old at this point, is the potential of investing, because this is something I got into pretty early on. I read some books when I was between 10 and 12 and I think I bought my first share of stock when I was around 12/13 years old. Again, this was the risk taker saver in me, because I saw that the risk taker was willing to invest a little bit of money in a company with the idea that if it made more money I would save that money later. | | Talking to our 10-year-old about buying one share of Disney or one share of TGT, which is Target, only because they sell Minecraft mini figures and he’s fascinated with Target any time we see one. We don’t go out to retail much because we do so much Amazon stuff that he’s actually really fond of Target for some reason even though we go there like three times a year. I can see that being an interesting thing for him to buy and then he owns one share. We could get the stock certificate and we could talk through. | | He already know what a share of stock is versus a bond. How one’s an ownership and one’s a loan, but once your own money is in something it’s pretty interesting to see every month where it’s up, where it’s down. The good thing about Disney and Target are that they’re both dividend paying stocks, and so they pay let’s just say in the 3% to 4% annual return on your money. There’s obviously always risk of it going down in terms of the stock price, but if you own a share of Disney and then you’re getting $4 a year or $5 a year because it’s about 100 bucks for a share of Disney. | | Then you watch that stock go up or you watch it go down, you just learn a little bit about investing. They don’t tend to be such volatile stocks that he’s going to lose all of his money, but I think that whole conversation is interesting. I don’t know if the kids are going to be comfortable with investing. Especially our younger one, if it’s just going to be too stressful for him, something I’ll probably bring up in a few years. | | But I do think our older son is probably more ready to start thinking about putting a tiny amount in and just to learn about what it feels like to actually put some money on the table and look at getting a little bit of a return. | | Sherry Walling: | Well, overall this book, The Five Money Conversations You Should Have With Your Kids at Every Age and Stage, it sounds like it was a really important read for you Rob over the last month or so. You read it. I actually haven’t read it yet but I think the conversations that you’ve had with both of the kids and with me have been really important in terms of just getting everybody on the same page about how we’re thinking about money at this point. | | Also creating opportunities for our kids to do some more hands-on learning with money and how to invest and save and also understand their own sensibility as it comes to money. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah. I agree. I think learning their money personalities has been really helpful for both you and I. I want to keep reflecting that back to the kids in terms of telling them when our oldest really wants to buy something in the store being like, “Look, remember, this is who you are and you need to maybe curb that desire every time we walk in.” For the younger one to say, “Hey don’t stress out so much about it.” To kind of encourage them to embrace more towards the middle rather than just being stuck in the mold that their mind tends to wander to. | | Sherry Walling: | Sounds good. |
In light of the recent holidays and getting together with family members, Sherry and Rob talk about family systems and hierarchy. They give some strategies to help deal with any emotional angst of re-entering your family of origin.
Support ZenFounder
Episode Transcript
| Rob Walling: | Went home to California for the holidays. Minneapolis is a bit cold right now. In fact I think with windchill it was -26 today and so for the past, what nine or ten days we were staying in Santa Cruz and then in East Bay and we saw a bunch of old friends and a bunch of old family. | | Sherry Walling: | Old family? I’m sure your mother is offended that you said that. | | Rob Walling: | I was just saying that as a joke. | | Sherry Walling: | Yaka, yaka. Yeah, so like 65 degrees when you’re a Californian is like, cold to be at the beach but when you’ve been in Minnesota for a while that’s a totally fine temperature to be at the beach. | | Rob Walling: | Well you and our youngest were in wetsuits ’cause we packed our wetsuits. So we never check bags right, that’s our thing. We have small bags, we carry ’em on, but we had four wetsuits that we wanted to bring, and we checked the bag for that and you and our youngest were in the water, in Santa Cruz, in essentially end of December and the water was cold. But you boogie boarded for extended periods of time. | | Sherry Walling: | It wasn’t that cold once you got moving. And it’s just so fun, and it’s this … it’s something that he and I love to do together, so I think a good wetsuit is a very good investment if you like to play in the water, in the Pacific. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, so that was fun. It was fun to get back to California for a bit and see family and that’s what this episode is about. It’s about post holiday recovery, but more than that it’s about family systems, and it’s about how to think about as you get older, you know, when you revisit and see family members or you know, our brothers, sisters, your parents. When you see them it’s pretty often that you revert back to kind of being a kid. And that’s what we’re gonna talk about today, because it’s easy to fall into kind of the traps or the tropes of where you were when you were 15. And there’re plusses and minuses to that, and so we have a syn theoretical band, that’s the cool part of today, is like you’ve put together an outline as a trained clinical psychologist, who has studied this and who has experience in learning about family systems and the research on it. | | And then we also have some very specific coping skills that you and I have developed to kind of get out of the house and have some alone time, especially if you’re an introvert, to be able to feel fulfilled. Because when there’s a lot of people around it’s often easy to get overwhelmed and to not give yourself time and space to basically debrief and mellow out and then come back more energized. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah, we probably should have recorded this episode before the holidays, that would have been more helpful to people, but I guess one of the values of this conversation is to normalize if you feel a little bit like your world has been rocked after spending time with family over the holidays. Even if you have the best family, that you just love and you get along with really well, it can be pretty tricky to re-engage with your family for a long period of time, and still come out of that experience feeling like the fully developed grown up that you were when you went into it. | | Rob Walling: | Right, ’cause often during these holiday times we’re trying to get away from work. We’re trying to relax, or trying to get to a place where it feels more relaxing right. And you’re just trying to come away from it recharged and so it’s a bummer if you take that one week that you have and you go and spend it with friends or family. I mean it’s not just [inaudible 00:04:07] family here, but to spend it with folks and then come away with your kind of the life drained out of you. Where you don’t have the energy to come back and engage in work. | | Sherry Walling: | One of the things that I found myself doing on our trip, and we spent 10 days in the house that we rented in Santa Cruz, and the chunk of that was spent with my parents and my brother and his wife. And then we had some other friends kind of cycle trough and spent time with us there. So it’s very lovely, actually the house was nice. Everybody started having enough room and overall very good experiences. But I found myself doing a couple things that are not totally typical of me. One is that, people would be sort of sitting around in the living room, watching a movie or talking and I would pick up some canvas paper and some paints and just kind of keep myself busy working on something. Like still being in the room and still sort of being part of the conversation but I was kind of distracting myself or engaged in this some little funny paintings that I was working on. | | And normally I’m kind of all in in a conversation and bright eyed and engaged in every piece of the conversation. So that’s a departure for me, and I was just sort of reflecting on how often I did that as a kid to kind of be in the room, but also engaging in my own thoughts and in a world. And a little bit separated or shut down from what was happening in the room. So I felt myself getting pulled back into that kind of 13 year old, 10 year old, maybe even 8 year old coping strategy that I developed, all those years ago. | | Rob Walling: | Do you think that’s similar to picking up a cellphone and doing whatever it is that you do on a phone, whether it’s Facebook, Twitter or checking email or that kind of stuff? | | Sherry Walling: | For me no, at least not the way that I use social media. I think for me some of the conversations that can happen around the table with my family are, they’re either frustrating to me, or they’re hard for me to be engaged in. And I think what I was doing was reminding myself of my own inner life, not my social connections to other people outside the family. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, and I think there’s a difference, I mean it’s interesting you’re pointing that out. Because the first day or two we got to Santa Cruz, we basically, you and I went to an art store and you purchased paints and some … there were canvasses, but it’s like canvas paper. It’s like a thick thing of paper, and you said I’m gonna do some painting ’cause it’s what you’ve been doing for the past six months. And it was a very deliberate decision upfront, and then you would set it up and start painting in advance. | | People would come in and you’d have a conversation of why you were painting, ’cause you could do both. It wasn’t as if you were in the middle of a conversation, like some people do, and suddenly you’re looking at your phone, like zoning out, monkey braining, on Facebook and Twitter. | | Sherry Walling: | You know, I still wanted to be present for the conversation, but there’s an element of separateness that’s important for me to maintain. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, I can see that. I mean, I think part of this trip back to California included, not only Santa Cruz but I went and saw my family, and they all live in the East Bay. And I went to my dad’s house and I haven’t been to this house I grew up in since I was four. So it’s really the only house I remember, and it was a lot different than I remember. I haven’t been there in about 10 years, and it’s definitely … there’s more clutter and the house is getting older, I mean there’s this things that change over the years and it was eye opening to realize how different I live today than I did when I was a kid. | | And to remember some of the struggles I had as a child, of wanting things, hey, whatever it is in your mind. It’s like sometimes you wanna be more organized, and other people are less. Or you wanna be less and they’re too [inaudible 00:07:53] or there’s always something but there was a period in the house that I was like, oh, this is very different from the way I live today and I’m glad that I’m in control of where we are. And I think that leads us into this whole question, I mean, this is where we get into the need of this episode, which is why, think about corporations or companies and how we build ourselves up very deliberately. And there’s obviously … there’s a hierarchy, there are cultures in a start up. There’re rules about how to interact with people, all this stuff. | | The thing is that the exact same things about families are in place, it’s just they’re unspoken. I don’t feel like people are nearly as deliberate about this as they are when they’re building companies and coming back to the intro, you know about this, about the theoretical and the research that’s been done about this. So let’s dive into that about how families are organized and what they look like and what the impact is on those of us who are members of families. | | Sherry Walling: | Well yeah, families are a system. They’re this composite of the smaller parts, and the way that those pieces of the system work together, those are highly nuanced and also unique in each family system. And I think the analogy that you make your start up is a good one and think about how much founders think about … or how much you spend time developing a culture in your business and the way that you want it to run, the way that you want people to interact. That happens in families even at a more intimate, more detailed levels. | | So then, one of the things that makes time with family as a grown up tricky, is that there’s a hierarchy in the family. Well, or their hierarchy can be very structured, like the parents are the sort of clear leaders of the family. Or a hierarchy can be more flat, where the family is more collaborative. So families are all different in the way that they set up the structures. And the differences between siblings, and the way that each child relates to the parents, or to one parent versus another parent. | | So there’s a fairly complex web of how a family is organized hieratically in terms of who’s connected to who and who tell secrets to who, and who can back stab and talk to who, and what are the rules that govern the nature of the relationships between individuals in the family. | | Rob Walling: | And is that why it’s so hard to go back for the holidays? Because at this point you become 25, 30, 35, 40, whatever it is, and when you go back you might be running your own start up. And you’re married, and you’re in charge of everything, and you make all these decisions and you go back, and suddenly the hierarchy is there again. | | Sherry Walling: | Like my mom still asking me if I need to go to the bathroom before I leave the house to go to dinner. | | Rob Walling: | Right, did she do that? | | Sherry Walling: | Yes! | | Rob Walling: | Oh my … And it’s like I have traveled Africa. | | Sherry Walling: | I’ve been bathrooming on my own for like 35 years now. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, oh that’s funny. | | Sherry Walling: | Right. | | Rob Walling: | But you can’t blame her because I ask our kids that all the time, right? And it’s hard to change those parenting, the instincts of you have to ask, are you okay? Are you willing to eat this, this strange food we’re gonna have, quote unquote, strange. Do you need to go to the bathroom? Do I need to wash your face, and it’s like, at what point do you cut that off as a parent? | | Sherry Walling: | Well, it’s tricky, because in my family I think my mom still maintain some of that maternal hierarchy. She still ask those questions and sort of wants to take care of us, and my dad’s like you’re on your own chumps. There’s not that same level of … the hierarchy is flat with him now, it wasn’t when we were kids. But with my mom, she’s still this sort of mom, caretaker of everybody. | | So it’s funny, but I also feel the hierarchy with my siblings. ‘Cause I’m the oldest, and man, I just always feel like the oldest. I always feel, okay, here’s our plan for the day, here’s what we’re doing, come on guys. And that role I fell back into really quickly when I’m with my family. And so the hierarchy gets tricky, especially as we age, because it’s depending on our parent’s health or wellbeing. We might find ourselves as adults now being more of the caretaker in that relationship, or more of the parent in that relationship. So that changes with time, the nature of our relationships, some things changes over time. | | So these things, the systems shifts as time passes. So it can be kind of confusing to go back into the system and not have this preset structure and hierarchy of how everybody should, quote unquote, be interacting with each other. | | Rob Walling: | And so to bring this back to being at home with family. What is the way to cope with that, if I go back and I feel frustrated by the fact that my mom or dad, or both, treat me like I’m 15. And I’m kinda like, guys, I run my own company, back off that thing. Hypothetically speaking of course. What’s the way to deal with that and cope with it. | | Sherry Walling: | I think the best case scenario is just to have a good sense of humor about it. My mom doesn’t care that you run your own company, she just doesn’t. And, you are not that to her. You’re her little Robbie who had the big brown eyes and played soccer with your blond hair and very short shorts. Your mom will always be … | | Rob Walling: | Short shorts, what do you wear … | | Sherry Walling: | Sorry, nevermind, that’s probably not the right mom reference. I’m just thinking of this picture of you that’s in your mom’s office. It’s like … | | Rob Walling: | I know. | | Sherry Walling: | Seventies glory. It is like teeny tiny little shorts. | | Rob Walling: | It’s early eighties, to be honest it’s early eighties, dude and my hair was straight blond. Can you believe that? | | Sherry Walling: | Anyway, it’s not the time to remind everyone of what you’ve accomplished as this wonderful adult. It’s just the time to let them see you the way that they see you. And I think that my mother still interacts with me as if I’m about 11. And that’s okay, it bugs me sometimes, but I need to let it be okay. So my coping strategy for that is, just have a sense of humor and don’t get defensive about how adult and important you are. That’s not a good recipe for family fun. | | Rob Walling: | Cool, so we talked about families and the hierarchy, parents and siblings, that’s one. There’s three others, so we kind of have a four point outline and then we will dive into more strategies. First one was hierarchy. The second one is the cultural expectations and rules of behavior. Talk about those. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah, so again, this sense of a family as a system, there are things that happen in the system that’s separated from other systems. So, religious practices, political convictions, conversation topics that are allowed versus conversation topics that are taboo. The kinds of food or beverages that people drink within the family, and you know, when you’re a kid growing up, like your parents serve you the kind of food that they serve you. And they either pray before the meal or they don’t pray before the meal. Or they listen to Rush Limbaugh on the radio when they’re driving you to school, or they don’t. | | And you don’t have any choices about that as a kid. But when you’re going back into, again, the system as an adult, your preferences may have changed. And I feel this whenever I’m either with my family, my dad this year for Christmas. It wasn’t a Christmas present but just, he brought to the house this Costco sized vat of mixed greens, and he’s like, I brought some food for you. And it was clear that he had realized that since I had left his home I started eating more green vegetables. But it was just this small little notice of how I’m different as an adult than I was as a kid and we as our family have chosen some different politics and religious practices and food and cultural norms that exist in our household that are different than our family’s growing up. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, and that brings up the inevitable clash of that, where there’s this awkwardness of, oh wait, we don’t do that anymore like we used to, or you’re gonna bring up religious or political topic or just even an everyday thing that we don’t agree with. And you’re gonna assume that we do agree with that, or you’re gonna suggest an entire meal with absolutely nothing green on the plate. And that doesn’t necessarily work for us. So, obviously that may feel awkward in the moment or whatever. How does someone deal with that? | | Sherry Walling: | It helps me to think about this as a cultural transition. So, when I am traveling to Vietnam and I’m served Pho for breakfast, I just sort of roll with it, and normally I don’t have soup for breakfast in America, but Pho is fabulous, so I just sort of roll with it. And know that even though your family feels like it should be familiar, it might not be anymore. I grew up in a community, not just my nuclear family, but a community of pretty, staunch conservative Republicans. And that was just assumed of all of the kids and all of the grown ups in the community of people that I grew up in. | | And it’s no longer a safe assumption in my family that everyone has the same political convictions. And so, when I’m with my family, I sort of am curious and listen to their different perspectives, and really again do my best not to be defensive or try to convince them that they should be having Cheerios for breakfast instead of Pho, because it’s not their cultural norm, and who am I to insist that it is, or that it should be. Does that answer your question? | | Rob Walling: | It does, yeah. | | Sherry Walling: | Appreciate diversity. | | Rob Walling: | For sure, it’s like not dreading it going into it and then taking a deep breath and just figuring the things that are maybe different than the way you do it today. They don’t even necessarily change. So that was the second point, it was about cultural expectations and roles of behavior. The third one is the rules about how connected people are. Talk to us about that. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah, this is kind of a continuum upon which people in the middle health community might seek to understand the families, and on one end of the continuum is what you call an enmeshed family, where there’s lots of shared emotional experience between the different members of the family. There’s lots of sharing, there’s lots of like … I kind of think of this as an open door policy in the house. The kids and the parents are all sort of going in and out of everybody’s bedroom and sort of hanging out, and there’s a lot of emotional interaction between all the members of the family. They’re all very close. There’s some pros and cons to that, for sure. That will be on partly the scope of this conversation. But then on the other end of the spectrum … | | Rob Walling: | Wait, hold, just for the record, that’s how I grew up. | | Sherry Walling: | It is? | | Rob Walling: | It was the family being very close, yip, and speaking freely and a lot of shared experiences is the way. We all went to my brother’s football games and then everybody came to my track meets and we interacted in a very open way, and a lot of conversations about what the family was going through. | | Sherry Walling: | And there was a shared sense of we’re all in this together, whether it’s your track meet or your brother’s football game, or your dad’s business Christmas event. Everybody is involved and part of it and has sort of feelings about it as well as an expectation to participate. | | Rob Walling: | So that’s the enmeshed, which sounds a little negative, but growing up, to be honest, it actually was cool, I felt like everybody cared about what I was doing. From the time that I was five until I moved out of the house, people were invested in my spelling bees, in my, whatever it is, homework, my track meets, my athletic career, everything. | | Sherry Walling: | And again, this exist in a continuum, so it’s not a category, and I think you had a very connected family, and the enmeshed can get real messy though, especially if … the difficult thing about being in an enmeshed family is if you wanna leave, if you grow up and you realize, I wanna go my own way, and I don’t want everyone in this family to have so much sway or influence over what I decide to do. | | And I think the other kind of scary thing that can happen is that members of the family, maybe a mother and child, can’t differentiate their own emotions from each other. So this is the mother whose like way overly invested in her daughter’s cheerleading career, and goes to crazy lengths to make sure that that kid is successful. Not because of the kid’s feelings but because of the mother’s feelings, but they can’t tell the difference between them. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, that makes sense. And that wasn’t the extent of us. | | Sherry Walling: | I just want to make that point really clear, these are the opposite ends of the spectrum and families lean toward one end or another but they’re both good and bad. Being in the middle, toward the middle, a little more centered is desirable. | | Rob Walling: | That’s the best right. So enmeshed it was one end, and the other side is? | | Sherry Walling: | The other side is disengaged, which is a very individuated family. Where each member of the family is doing their own activities, they’re very distinct. They have very distinct emotions. These families also tend to be quite hierarchical. And my family was a little bit more like this. My parents didn’t sit down with me and chat about the gossip that was happening with my friends in seventh grade. And when I wanted to run for student council, I figured out how to do that by myself. And when I had track meet, sometimes they’d come if they were close, but mostly not. | | So, it just impresses upon, the skills that you learn in a disengaged family are a lot of autonomy, but not necessarily a lot of emotional connection. | | Rob Walling: | See, that’s what I like about this episode is that, we have some pieces that are directly applicable to dealing with family and handling everything in the context of holiday and coming back and revisiting and this one, I’m not sure how much it matters. It’s just good to know, were you enmeshed, were you disengaged, where were you on that continuum. You feel like this impacts how you would interact with your family if you went back and revisited them 20 years later at our beach house in Santa Cruz? | | Sherry Walling: | Well, I definitely do, especially because you and I now have our own family, and we have a different … we’re on a different place in this continuum than either of our families of origin. So we’re definitely less disengaged and less enmeshed. It think we’re more in the middle. And so for me to go and visit your family, it kind of feels like everyone’s all up in my business and I feel my own individuation coming out strong, because I grew up in a different kind of family. | | But if I don’t know why that’s happening, or don’t have a handle on that, then it would be easy for me to withdraw or distance myself from your family without understanding why I was uncomfortable. That it’s not that they’re bad people, they just have a different way of doing family than I’m used to. | | Rob Walling: | Totally, and that’s the thing. I think, especially as you get married and another family, your spouse’s family has a different system, it’s not this terrible, horrible, no good, very bad thing. It winds up being, oh, there really is … it’s crazy that there tends to be some pretty simple descriptions of this stuff that is just a continuum, whether it’s, we’re talking about hierarchy with parents and siblings, talk about cultural expectations, we talked about how connected people are in enmeshed and disengaged, and it really is just where you are in this continuum and understanding that your family presently, your family when you’re growing up, and your spouse’s family may be very different. It can lend you that anthropological mindset of, oh, this actually isn’t terrible. This is just different. And like you said, they served me Pho for breakfast and I’m just gonna eat it. I wouldn’t do that normally but I’m just gonna accept it as a different way of being. | | And there’s a fourth piece, right. We’ve touched on three of them. The fourth piece is about rules about how structured the family is. Why don’t you tell us about that? | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah, this one’s kind of fun to talk about because again our families are super opposite in this. And here are the two ends of the continuum, one is rigid, and the other is chaotic. I came from a very rigid family where we ate dinner at 5:30 every day for my whole life. | | Rob Walling: | And what happened if someone happened to call, let’s say a friend happened to call at 5:35? | | Sherry Walling: | There was no answering the phone during dinner time. And there was shaming and grumping, and my dad would yell about it, or at least, why is this person calling at dinnertime? Like it should be just universally understood that no one should make phone calls at 5:30. | | Rob Walling: | Right, then everyone ate dinner at 5:30 pacific. | | Sherry Walling: | So very rigid. Things were in a place, they had a place. There’s a high level of organization, and there were lots of rules that governed how the family operated and those rules were enforced very strictly. And then your family on the opposite end goes toward this more chaotic style, which is like what, at 8:00, 9:00, 10:00 you were at home by yourself, making peanut butter and jelly, and then maybe your mum shows up around 8:30, and your dad comes around 9:00, and people are filtering in and out. There’s no dinner time, there’s no dining room table to eat at. People just grab their food and squat where ever. | | Rob Walling: | That’s not totally correct, but it is a pretty good picture. | | Sherry Walling: | There was no furniture. | | Rob Walling: | No, there was furniture. So yes, you’re right, actually I learned to make mac and cheese when I was nine. I did make PB & J when I was 8 or 9 and there were parents around, but things became more chaotic as I got older. I’ll put it that way. So yeah, you’re right, it’s very very different. In terms of when I was really young we did actually all eat dinner together and then as I got older things … everybody just went their separate ways, and we just managed, and you did your thing. | | And we have … our oldest now is 10, he is older than I was when I was arriving home after school on my own. And we didn’t even had latch keys back then, ’cause we lived in the country. I would just get of the bus and I’d walk this quarter mile driveway and I’d walk into the house and be like, all right, I’m here on my own, and everybody trusted me not to burn the house down, eat rat poison, drown in the pool. Just these basic fundamental things that you expect of a kid. So I was definitely kind of managing things on my own at that point. | | Sherry Walling: | But things were also very fluid in your house, you could watch what you want, and go to bed when you wanted, and eat what you want, versus at my house, dinner at 5:30, bedtime 8:30 or 9:00, or 10:00 if you’re in high school. There was this structure that was pretty strictly … | | Rob Walling: | Ten at high school? | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah, it’s amazing I’m as cool as I am. | | Rob Walling: | It is like, I didn’t know you back then, holy crap. | | Sherry Walling: | My junior year we really really had to negotiate hard for 10:30. | | Rob Walling: | 10:30? I think when I was in junior high I may have been out till 2:00 multiple times. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah, you had no … just like come and go when you want. | | Rob Walling: | It’s different also with the … | | Sherry Walling: | Oh, don’t even say what you’re gonna say. | | Rob Walling: | It’s different also when you’re as cool as I am. | | Sherry Walling: | All right, we’re blabbing on really long here, but I think the bottom line is that if you, like us, are feeling a little post holiday, non alcohol related hangover, it’s because again, despite how great your family might be, re-entering that system that you’ve lived in when you were a child can shake you up a little bit. Our adult development takes us out of our nuclear families, and we find new ways to live, we find new cultures, new preferences, new ways of doing things and organizing our new families. And so when we kind of experience the culture shock of getting pulled back into the old structure, or fighting against the old structure, it can definitely cause some tension and some emotional angst to go along with your Christmas ham. | | Rob Walling: | And so we have some strategies. Five of them to be exact for staying sane, and how to cope. If this stuff is stressful sometimes going back and seeing family is awesome and other times it can be stressful. And like you said, maybe it’s a little bit late to do it for holiday parties ’cause we’re past the first of the year, but maybe you could use it for super bowl parties, or your trip back over the summer, or even next year, because podcast are timeless. So kick us off with our first strategy. | | Sherry Walling: | I think just have a heads up that it might be trickier than you think. Sometimes it feels like it’s gonna be so great to return to something familiar to see these people that you deeply love and yes, it will be great. But there’s always gonna be something that’s a little bit tricky, that causes a little bit of tension. So have the heads up about that, make a plan for it, like give yourself some grace, give ourself some room, give your spouse some room, and take space when you need it, which is sort of the second strategy. | | But again, so the first is to be aware that you might need some space and then the second is to take some space. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, I think being aware that you’re gonna need some space is big for me. It’s like identifying in advance, okay this is what’s gonna happen and I’m an Anthropologist and I’m gonna observe, and I’m gonna take a scientific view of … this is not the way I do it, and I’m not gonna freak out because things are a little different or because someone said something that I don’t agree with, because I don’t have to live under that for a 100 years right. I don’t have to eat Pho everyday, although I really like Pho, but I don’t have to eat it everyday for breakfast for 100 years, I have to do it this once. I have to eat something at dinner that have no greens on it once, so I’m gonna zip my mouth and I wanna be an Anthropologist, and I’m gonna observe, this is how far I’ve come. This is where I am. | | Specific examples of taking space when you need it I think come back to you, you going off that second day and buying paints and in essence … | | Sherry Walling: | I’m here, and I’m not here. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, but I mean, emerging yourself, that was your space. It was to create art and you and I also went for walks and runs every day and right now in Minneapolis it’s a little chilly to that. We’ve carved out a few of them here and there, but in Santa Cruz, bru, you and I individually were going for multiple per day. And I think that was a big thing where I’d be like, Sherry, take off, like go, do this thing, I’m gonna handle the kids or we’re just gonna manage the house together with your family and you would do the same. And we had a lot of flexibility. I think we lended each other a lot of flexibility and got each other’s back in this one. | | Sherry Walling: | Yeah, I think it’s pretty futile speaking of coping strategies, to try to change the way that your family of origin operates. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, that’s the third piece here. The first strategy is be aware that things are gonna be weird, the second is to take space, and the third is, don’t try to change things. | | Sherry Walling: | I came home from college. My parents are from the Midwest, and I came home from college with an avocado and an artichoke. And these were both foods that did not exist in my family up until I went to college. And I brought them back and I was explaining the artichoke to my parents, and I cooked it, and I made the sauce, and they were just like, what is this thing? Why would we spend all this time doing this for this. It was just a foreign entity, and I was like, okay, I like artichokes. And I’m gonna decide to like artichokes, but you guys don’t, and your not going to, and you don’t get them, and they’re not intriguing, so we’re just gonna let that be, you know. Whether it’s politics or religion or artichokes. Letting your family of origin, letting the people in your family have the space to be different from you. And to realize that your journey into adulthood has taken you in different directions and to not sweat it. | | Rob Walling: | That’s right, and you’re probably not gonna change your parents who are 20 or 30 years older than you, because let me tell you as your elder, anyone who’s listening to this podcast, I’m probably older than you. You don’t change nearly as well as you get older. So what’s our fourth strategy for staying sane? | | Sherry Walling: | I think also not to be defensive about the structures that you’ve implemented. We’ve made different decisions than our parents made about parenting, and things that we do or don’t do with our kids. And so I think there times, maybe especially with your family, just because it is more foreign to me, that I kind of want to make a public service announcement and just be like look, this is why I do this thing with my kids. And this is my rationale, and I wanna constantly explain myself, and it’s just not helpful or important and I think it’s this defensiveness in me that gets in the way of having a comfortable and warm relationship. If I’m overly attached to everyone approving of me for the things that I do that are different than their convictions and the way that they have chosen to run their family. So don’t be defensive about how you’ve implemented your life. | | Rob Walling: | Yeah, I think that’s the big deal, it’s like going into it, preparing yourself and thinking about how to be proud of the decisions you’ve made, and move on with them. What’s our fifth strategy for staying sane? | | Sherry Walling: | Especially if you’re now part of a new family, if you have a partner and children, it’s important to take some time with your partner and maybe your kids as appropriate to talk about the differences in your family and then the family that you came from. Your family of origin. I know, as we have talked and just created more shared connection between the two of us, as we reflect on the differences between our current family and both of our families of origin, that’s been important both, to give space to express, like wow, this is hard, this is weird, these people are kind of crazy. I love them, but I don’t really understand them, and to help us clarifying, and solidify, okay we’re okay with doing things differently in our life, in our nuclear family. | | So mom, if you’re listening, I love you, you’re the best. | | Rob Walling: | I love you too, I love you too mom, you are the best. [crosstalk 00:35:04] Thank you for raising me. | | Sherry Walling: | We love spending time with you. | | Rob Walling: | Putting up with all my crap. | | Sherry Walling: | In smaller doses. | | Rob Walling: | I was a jerk and now … | | Sherry Walling: | And we’re sorry about all the tattoos. | | Rob Walling: | O yeah, ’cause do you realize in our parent’s day tattoos were … | | Sherry Walling: | So I have a new tattoo that I’ve been getting work done on over the past couple of months, and it’s a fairly large tattoo, takes up a quarter of my back. And my mom saw it at Christmas and she was just like, come here, I have to … what have you done here? | | Rob Walling: | I almost hyperventilated. | | Sherry Walling: | She’s trying to be cool, she’s trying to be like, tell me about it. | | Rob Walling: | She said, “what have you done here?” Is it a … [crosstalk 00:35:45] | | Sherry Walling: | What is this? | | Rob Walling: | Yes. | | Sherry Walling: | So my mom now thinks I’m in a biker gang, that’s not how it works these days. But again it’s pointless to try to explain to her that I’m a psychologist from very upstanding accomplished. | | Rob Walling: | Right, do you realize that was … in the 50’s or the 60’s perhaps getting a tattoo was a signal of being in a biker gang, however, these days even people with Ph.D’s get tattoos. | | Sherry Walling: | Love you mom. |