Ending Human Trafficking Podcast

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Diana Mao joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as they explore how economic empowerment serves as a frontline defense against human trafficking, revealing why desperation—not just deception—drives vulnerable families into exploitation.

https://youtu.be/NLM4TP2d_lQ

Diana MaoDiana Mao is a dynamic leader at the forefront of the fight against human trafficking and workforce development. As the President and Co-Founder of Nomi Network, she’s helped raise and mobilize over 30 million dollars to create economic opportunities for survivors and women at risk. Her work has brought together corporate leaders, government agencies, and social impact partners to build pathways to freedom and stability. She’s a Presidential Leadership Scholar and a New York Academy of Medicine Fellow, and her innovative approach has earned her awards like the NYU Alumni Changemaker Award and the Texas Women’s Foundation Young Leader Award. She’s advised Congress on key policy issues, and her voice is regularly heard on some of the world’s biggest stages, including the United Nations, the Bush Presidential Center, and the Clinton Presidential Center. With degrees in Business Economics and Chinese from UC Santa Barbara and a Master’s in Public Administration from NYU Wagner, Diana blends academic rigor with hands-on leadership.

Key Points* Economic vulnerability drives trafficking more than deception alone—when families face starvation and earn less than 75 cents a day, they may knowingly take dangerous jobs because desperation outweighs risk assessment. * Nomi Network operates 42 training sites across India, Cambodia, and the United States, providing trauma-informed workforce training, job placement, and micro-enterprise support that creates sustainable alternatives to exploitative labor. * Building capacity within existing community organizations—rather than disqualifying partners who don’t meet predetermined standards—creates more sustainable and culturally contextualized anti-trafficking interventions. * Living immersively in the communities being served allows organizations to co-design programs with survivors and understand the daily realities that shape vulnerability, from gathering water at 5 AM to facing harassment after 6 PM. * Successful prevention requires creating bridges between vulnerable communities and the private sector, as demonstrated by Nomi Network’s partnerships with major employers like India’s largest manufacturers and Toyota subsidiaries that provide direct job pipelines. * Youth in Dallas County’s detention system who complete Nomi Network’s apprenticeship programs secure jobs earning $18 per hour—more than double the minimum wage—fundamentally changing their economic trajectories and reducing trafficking vulnerability. * The anti-trafficking movement is increasingly leveraging technology and AI as tools for prevention and intervention, recognizing that criminal networks are already using these technologies at exponential rates to target vulnerable populations. * Self-care practices including morning exercise routines, faith-based reflection, and intentional rest enable sustained leadership in emotionally demanding anti-trafficking work, helping leaders operate from inspiration rather than obligation.

Resources* Nomi Network * Invisible Children * World Vision * International Justice Mission (IJM) * Hagar International * Vanguard University * Ending Human Trafficking Podcast

Transcript[00:00:00] Diana Mao: And at the end of the survey he offered my male colleague, his youngest daughter, you like her, you take her. And as I looked into his eyes, I could see desperation and I didn’t even know what, if he knew what he was doing.

[00:00:11] Delaney: When your children sleep on bare ground and you earn 75 cents a day, risk management isn’t just about losing your car. It’s about facing the decision to take a job that might cost you everything or watching your family starve. Today’s conversation is about why economic empowerment isn’t just a nice idea, but it’s a frontline of prevention.

[00:00:32] Hi, I’m Delaney and I’m a student here at Vanguard University. I help produce this show. Today, Dr. Morgan talks with Diana Mao, president and co-founder of Nomi Network. Diana has mobilized over $30 million to create workforce pathways for survivors and at-risk women across 42 training sites in India, Cambodia, and the us.

[00:00:53] And now here’s their conversation.

[00:01:00] Sandie Morgan: I am so happy to be with you, Diana Mao Kelly for the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. Welcome.

[00:01:10] Diana Mao: Thank you. It’s such a pleasure to be here this morning.

[00:01:13] Sandie Morgan: I met you through the Public Private Partnership Advisory Council to end human trafficking. We were both presidential appointees and we served for two years. And part of that was during the pandemic, so we haven’t ever had a lot of in-person time, but I feel like I know you so well because of your very strategic contributions to the team during that season.

[00:01:49] And I learned a little about your history during that time as I tried to get to know everybody on the council, and I was really struck by your heritage and how that impacted your personal mission formation. Can you talk a little bit about your family history?

[00:02:14] Diana Mao: Yeah, didn’t really discover family history really until after the fight against human trafficking. I started Nomi Network in 2009 and so over the course of time I learned more and more about some of the intergenerational trauma that my father faced. He was actually in labor camp.

[00:02:36] so really all I knew was growing up in Southern California. ’cause my parents had met and gotten married there, but he definitely has trauma and PTSD from that. And so more and more, as I researched labor camp, connected the dots with the issue I was fighting against human trafficking and what are some of the lingering effects of someone that is in slavery.

[00:03:02] Sandie Morgan: And when did you learn about human trafficking?

[00:03:07] Diana Mao: I learned about it actually in college. I know Sandie, you work with really bright and brilliant college students. so in college I learned about the issue of child soldiers in Northern Uganda through invisible children. And so as a young person, I was touched by their film and I started raising funds for invisible children and for World Vision.

[00:03:36] At the time, they had children’s villages in some of these volatile areas, and so that’s when I first became aware of the issue of human trafficking.

[00:03:45] Sandie Morgan: And you led, or you were part of a research trip in Cambodia.

[00:03:51] Diana Mao: Yeah, so fast forward when I was in graduate school, getting my master’s, I learned intensely the issue on the front lines. I was there working for a microfinance bank and during that time I was charged with meeting with microfinance clients, some of whom lived in very remote areas, where it would take.

[00:04:16] A moped and walking through leach infested muck to get to the community.

[00:04:22] Sandie Morgan: Ooh.

[00:04:23] Diana Mao: The community was getting microfinance loans, so it was there I met a single father with seven children. He had lost his wife the year before to I think it was malaria, but some disease that is curable but they had no access to healthcare, potable water, electricity.

[00:04:42] And so after we surveyed him, asked him about a hundred questions related to his loan and what he was doing with his loan, I learned that he was still earning less than 75 cents a day. Still reliant on low yield agriculture, still living in a mud hut with his children on the floor sleeping without a mattress or any mat.

[00:05:05] And at the end of the survey he offered my male colleague, his youngest daughter, you like her, you take her. And as I looked into his eyes, I could see desperation and I didn’t even know what, if he knew what he was doing. And my colleague and I looked at each other in horror and very uncomfortably left his hut.

[00:05:25] But his daughter, I still remember her face. I remember her long hair, remember her big brown eyes. And I just, really shook me because in the more urban areas, I would see really young girls like her on the street or in restaurant bars with old foreign men. so at the time in that period, there is high.

[00:05:51] Cases of human trafficking is very and apparent during that time and you could literally see children being trafficked in Cambodia. So that’s what really led me to investigate and dedicate my resources and time to fighting the issue.

[00:06:09] Sandie Morgan: And you have done exactly that and one of the hallmarks of Nomi Network is how it works at the intersection of economic development as well as social justice. So how do you balance those domains?

[00:06:29] Diana Mao: Yeah, would say, we, I look at it as people that we work with are either deceived, they migrate haphazardly. Like in the case where we work in Cambodia, many times they are living in abject poverty, and so they migrate to Thailand or other places within Southeast Asia for a job. Many cases our clients end up being trafficked, like one client who is promised a job in Malaysia and

[00:07:01] Sandie Morgan: Mm

[00:07:01] Diana Mao: and abused and managed to escape.

[00:07:04] repatriate back to Cambodia. And we helped her start, we provided with her with the training and healing and also helped her start an ice cream shop that now is prospering and she’s able to support herself. So you have deception and then you also have desperation like I mentioned. The single father who I met living in abject poverty, trying to support his family and economic interventions such as NOMI Network, providing them with trauma informed training and technical training a job, or helping them start a micro enterprise along with continuous support, ongoing support and counseling so that they can retain their job and grow their business is very important to combat.

[00:07:51] Desperation because if I had to put myself in the shoes of some of our clients, I would say yes. I may be aware that it’s not safe to migrate from the north of India to the south of India, or from Cambodia to Thailand or to Cambodia to Malaysia. However, if I have five mouths to feed, may ignore that.

[00:08:17] Voice and take that job right and end up being in a very bad situation. So that’s why it’s so important and our focus is both on desperation side by building economic resiliency so people can stay in their communities and have that support system to begin with so they’re not trafficked.

[00:08:38] And of course, deception, preventing people from being deceived and encouraging them not to take jobs where they’re not certain that is an actual job.

[00:08:49] Sandie Morgan: So what you really point out so well here is this idea of risk management. We come at it, I mean, we’re both here in the vicinity and have lived in Southern California. So risk management for us to accept a job might be about the traffic and the commute, or how much it’s going to cost to move to a new job, and what kind of risks we might take if we got into a bogus job and we might lose our home, we might lose our car.

[00:09:27] But when your kids are sleeping on the bare ground, what do you have in your hand to risk? And so is it risk management? Is it a poor decision? And if there’s not another avenue to improving your family’s situation, and I hear that over and over again. So I love your strategy for connecting this with the economic empowerment.

[00:10:06] And I also have been so impressed by how you’ve scaled up. It’s not Know Me House or No Me Bank. It’s Know Me Network. And tell us where Nomi network, where are all those nodes?

[00:10:23] Diana Mao: Yeah, absolutely. So we have 42 training sites, 35 in India in the four high prevalent states of India. And then we have five training sites in Cambodia and also two in the us. And so our network, it started with me enlisting to be Nomi’s Network. Nomi is a young survivor who I met the following year where I went back to Cambodia to speak with IJM Hagar, all the anti-trafficking organizations that were providing either rescue or rehabilitation.

[00:11:02] And so across the board, they all were trying to help women get out of that system, the shelter system. Some of the women there were there as long as eight years already living in the shelter. So the next step is more of the economic, the reintegration side. And so at that moment when I met Nomi, she’s a survivor who’s eight years old.

[00:11:23] I felt deep connection with her. She carried such hope. She had already been at the shelter a year, and she’s eight years old. When I met her, she was trafficked by her stepfather and she greeted my co-founder and I with such hope and joy, showed us her pet rabbits, walked us around. And

[00:11:43] Sandie Morgan: Uh.

[00:11:43] Diana Mao: that moment, I wanted to be her network.

[00:11:46] I wanted to see her grow into adulthood, and I’m still in touch with her today. She’s in her twenties really be the network behind KnowMe. So that’s the impetus of our name. And so since then, 15 years later, we now in every place, all the 42 sites, we have government partnerships. We work with the ministry.

[00:12:08] Of Labor Ministry of Women’s Affairs in Cambodia. We work with Dallas County specifically, providing training to youth as young as 12 years old who are in the detention system. And many of them have, unfortunately been trafficked or have sexual exploitation in their background. And so, the network has really expanded across.

[00:12:34] The globe, we have partners that we work with, nonprofits that refer clients to us and all of these places, specifically in Dallas as well. And in Houston, we have really strong nonprofit partnerships where we provide that continuum of care at the economic empowerment side, while we leverage the strength and expertise of other nonprofits to focus more on the counseling and other social services.

[00:13:05] And then of course we have employment partners, and so we work with India’s largest manufacturer. We work with the subsidiary of Toyota in Cambodia for job placements. We work with

[00:13:17] Sandie Morgan: Wow.

[00:13:18] Diana Mao: international in Dallas. where I’m so proud of the youth that we’ve been able to place in jobs in Hilti, they’re earning $18 an hour in apprenticeship program, and Dallas minimum wage is 7 25.

[00:13:35] So already,

[00:13:36] Sandie Morgan: Oh my goodness.

[00:13:37] Diana Mao: As high school students apprenticeship program, and so I really see the change in trajectory of their lives as their first job landing it at that rate. I mean, the sky’s the limit for them as they grow into young adults.

[00:13:54] Sandie Morgan: So in scaling this model, I heard a couple of things that really struck me, especially your networking and collaboration with other nonprofits for some of the ancillary services and support for survivors that you are working with. How does that work? Because it’s obvious that the social enterprise model that you’re using is very focused on building an economic foundation to build on like a young person in an apprentice or a young person in a micro enterprise. They can look at the future, not as I’m stuck in this job for generations like my father, but I could build something. But somebody has to do the support. And you mentioned the trauma and those things.

[00:15:04] So what does that part entail in your network and how you partner and collaborate?

[00:15:12] Diana Mao: Yeah, that’s a really great question. I would say we really contextualize region by region. In the US there’s a really robust network of social service providers and so we look at our organizations and what are their assets? So some of them have very large offices, right?

[00:15:33] And it’s not fully utilized. So we go onsite and provide them with training, the clients there. And in the case of Dallas, we go onsite into the Dallas County Detention Center. We provide our trauma informed training, and then once the youth are out of detention, they get ongoing case management support and we continue to work with them because some of them is our young, as 13 years old, we work on their.

[00:16:02] and education goals on an ongoing five-year basis. We do believe, particularly for youth in the US it’s important that they have that consistency because many of them lack the parental support that they need to get at a very difficult situations. And so in the case of India, for example, we’ve been there since for over 10 years.

[00:16:25] And so we work in 35 training sites, and we identify local HIV clinics, local schools, local religious institutions, local hospitals that are very under-resourced. They’re in rural communities. And so we start working with them on building their capacity to work with us on delivering economic empowerment programming.

[00:16:56] So in one case, we may rent a space that’s part of a school. And so it’s more of a focal point already in the community. We’re just coming alongside and building the capacity and the economic engine. In many cases, we’ve actually been able to draw in capital and draw in private sector investment. One region that we work in, in India because of us, a large manufacturer, was willing to set up a technical school with us that provides sewing machine training. And so then directly after women graduate from the technical school that we co-facilitate with this large factory.

[00:17:37] It’s a pipeline into their factory. So the women are able to secure jobs directly. And so we’ve been able to attract private sector investment because of our presence, because employers know that Now we’ve addressed a lot of the barriers in these communities. We’ve also upskilled women in life skills, critical thinking, problem solving, preparing them for more of a formal workplace.

[00:18:02] And so these are more extremely remote communities that typically don’t have that pipeline. We in essence built a pathway into these communities for employers to engage. And these are the exact communities where unfortunately, traffickers prey on women and children and men. And so

[00:18:25] Sandie Morgan: right.

[00:18:25] Diana Mao: we are really preventing that cycle from happening, but also building a bridge between the private sector and these more vulnerable communities.

[00:18:33] Sandie Morgan: So I want to look a little closer at how you build that bridge because oftentimes when organizations are going into a community, they do an assessment. They find out who is here, who is there, and then they evaluate those orgs and disqualify. They don’t do this. So no, we are not gonna collaborate with them.

[00:19:01] This is not their value. So no, they don’t fit, but you are taking a different approach to actually build their capacity, not just in their ability to attract jobs, but in their ability to promote that wellbeing that health that is not just physical, but a life attitude it feels like. Tell me how you decided not to disqualify people, but became a capacity builder for another organization?

[00:19:49] Diana Mao: Yeah, it has directly to do with the fact that my co-founder and I lived there for two years. Combined. We lived in

[00:19:57] Sandie Morgan: Wow.

[00:19:57] Diana Mao: Bihar is, some diplomats have noted that Bihar is like the Afghanistan of India. So in 2011, got a State Department grant to start working in region. We picked up our bags and I was in my early twenties and moved there and it was very difficult

[00:20:20] Sandie Morgan: Wow.

[00:20:20] Diana Mao: being foreign.

[00:20:22] At times, my life was in danger. At times we had to stay indoors after six ’cause women weren’t seen on the streets and would, if they were, they would get harassed or attacked. so living there really helped me contextualize and understand the local context, understand the dynamics, understand the resources available, understand the cultural, the cultural nuances really.

[00:20:55] And so at the same time, I really understood our clients more. I understood the women that we worked with, ’cause we worked with them directly. We heard their hopes, we heard their dreams, we heard their fears. We heard they wanted out of the program, they in essence, co-designed it with us. So we had the curriculum that we had in mind on best practices.

[00:21:20] They gave us the realities of their lives and what they face, the challenges on a day-to-day basis. I took the design thinking approach of really like understanding what are their jobs every day. their job is to wake up at 5:00 AM go draw the water and gather to start a fire for their tea, to start cooking for their children.

[00:21:46] And so all the way from that time early on till like 8:00 PM how taxing their lives are. For us, we have the convenience of opening up a faucet and drawing water. We have the convenience of electricity. people around the world don’t have that. And so for me to actually live there experience it allowed me then to build that bridge directly with the clients and therefore also understanding the constraints that these nonprofits locally or these schools or HIV clinics, what the constraints they have as well.

[00:22:22] So how do we bridge that or help them overcome that because they are there providing services for the community. And so we wanna help amplify that and really create a more sustainable vehicle so that the local economy can be more prosperous as well.

[00:22:38] Sandie Morgan: This is such a great process to understand how you perceive, ’cause you used the word contextualize a lot. But I’m not gonna be able to go and live there for two years, so how am I going to help people understand those kinds of economic and local factors and how they contribute to human trafficking, exploitation, and why rescue is not enough.

[00:23:11] Diana Mao: Yeah, I mean, I would say contextualizing it, let’s, I’m just assuming to students and people, I also lived in Southern California and I know that I lived in a bubble up until high school, right? Like people have a context of for you Orange County, for me it was Pasadena.

[00:23:33] And so that’s really a thousand steps to the bridge we’re trying to form between the communities that we’re serving. and so I think contextualizing it comes with first of all, someone that’s willing to learn, right? If someone is not open, then I think as much as you share and provide context stories, trainings like that, that may be a closed door if someone’s willing to learn.

[00:24:00] I think for us it’s allowing people to learn more about the how behind the work. Also, we have webinars where we have some of the partners we work with or communities, clients that signed on to share, be able to share directly. because I think the worlds are so different between rural India and even New York City where Nomi network was birthed.

[00:24:34] And so you’re right, not everyone’s gonna pick up their backs and go to rural India or rural Cambodia. But I think as anti-trafficking practitioners, you and I, like, we have the challenge and opportunity to share. And the scope of trafficking is changing second by second, now we have online grooming, now we have all of these things that I’m even learning about.

[00:25:01] So I even am feeling like I’m catching up with some of the latest technology advancements that sadly have really exponentially increased the amount of children and youth that are trafficked in our country alone. So I think that’s where,

[00:25:18] Sandie Morgan: Mm.

[00:25:19] Diana Mao: as long as we continue to be that bridge and to have the opportunity share very specifically and strategically, I think that’s how we bridge and help contextualize and with policy makers, I think have a role in this.

[00:25:39] That’s where it’s important, particularly for people like you and members of different councils, series of influence to be able to share and inform decisions and policies and resource allocation. I think that’s really important, especially during this time, this critical time in our country.

[00:26:00] Sandie Morgan: And you use the expression a thousand steps. And so I feel like when we have students, I love being at Vanguard University. We give them a path and they begin to take those steps and sometimes that means they’re going to end up living in another country. One of my students is on a Fulbright scholarship in Taiwan and other students have been gone off to Nepal or studied in Spain or Argentina. We do regular study abroad, but that beginning starts with walking down that path and it’s like last night I had told you at the beginning, before we started recording, I had a really late night because our students put on our Fair Trade annual fashion show and it’s educational and prevention focused, and they want to disrupt fast fashion.

[00:27:10] That has such a huge footprint in labor trafficking and exploitation. And as the students were the voices and they shared their research and their experiences and gave people practical applications. I could see how this next generation is going to take our movement to a new level, and I wanna be able to support that in my community and figure out what it looks like in another country or another culture.

[00:27:50] Diana Mao: Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. That’s incredible. I mean, I agree with you that these opportunities go abroad are instrumental. I mentioned I started Nomi in my early twenties and I started actually even before that fundraising for the fight against human trafficking by fundraising for other organizations.

[00:28:13] I did not mention that when I was 15 years old I volunteered in rural Mexico on a volunteer trip, and then

[00:28:22] Sandie Morgan: Ah.

[00:28:23] Diana Mao: in Brazil in the slums of Brazil the following year. And I’ve also volunteered in college in the slums of Egypt. and so my grandmother was a firm believer of exactly what you’re saying, and so she would encourage me and support my volunteer trips abroad.

[00:28:41] And so in the slums of Egypt is where I actually lived in a garbage village for two months

[00:28:48] Sandie Morgan: Oh my goodness.

[00:28:50] Diana Mao: volunteered in Mother Teresa’s orphanage in that garbage village. So literally, many people that walked in the garbage village would start throwing up because literally it’s raw garbage, like mountains, mountain high of garbage.

[00:29:05] so those experiences were really formative in my life. And so what you’re saying in terms of what you support and vanguard in terms of students going abroad is really key.

[00:29:19] Sandie Morgan: Yeah. How can we walk in someone else’s shoes without at least taking a few steps in that direction. I am inspired by your description of a thousand steps and it motivates me to create pathways for my students to begin a journey like yours. I wanna ask you a little bit more about your leadership and sustainability.

[00:29:49] You have 42 know me sites now in the network, and you are a recognized and celebrated leader of a mission-driven organization in a really difficult field. So how do you sustain your own energy and continue to be innovative?

[00:30:16] Diana Mao: Yeah, absolutely. I would say for me, running full speed for the past 15 years, I’ve learned to have self care as well. So that includes like morning rhythms of exercise. I know, Sandie, you mentioned your morning routine of exercise. So for me it’s actually, I run marathons.

[00:30:45] So running, and lately I’ve really adopted Peloton biking, and so that helps me kick off my day. I also really lean into my faith and so I have really quiet time, devotion time, prayer time, usually always in the morning to help ground me as well. so I find that when I do that, those things, there’s much more clarity throughout the day for me, and

[00:31:17] Sandie Morgan: I

[00:31:19] Diana Mao: doing things out of a wing versus a weight.

[00:31:23] And I would say when I feel times a bit weighted is challenges come all the time and I think it’s more of the posture of my heart and I find myself when I do those key things that helps ground me and keep me in this hopeful, faith filled state.

[00:31:39] Sandie Morgan: Hmm. So good. So what do you see in the next five to 10 years? In our movement, in know me network, in what we need to be doing.

[00:31:52] Diana Mao: That’s a great question. Well, according to our institutional supporters, like Nomi Network is the only organization that’s provided workforce development and jobs at scale for the anti-trafficking movement. And so that means for us, currently about 4,000 women and girls a year. We just embarked on our strategic plan process.

[00:32:16] Yeah, the board has approved our plan from 2026 to 2030, and by 2030 we were going to, we’re gonna get to a hundred thousand women and girls annually terms of job placement and training and micro enterprise, which is very exciting for me because we are already in those 42 sites that we work, measuring resilience against trafficking and other indicators.

[00:32:40] And so that’s exciting to be able to target these hubs and really see meaningful change that’s measured. also we are in the process of taking our curriculum and making it more available to the private sector as well, so that there’s a lot of traction there. so that’s also really exciting in terms of potential earned revenue for our organization, for the movement, I was just in a.

[00:33:10] A conference in Colorado with movement leaders. And we were brought together by people like Tim Tebow and others. And so we were in working groups and that was really powerful because I was able to build new relationships with organizations that I’ve learned about that currently aren’t in my orbit and continue in the working group.

[00:33:38] I think one thing that anti-trafficking movement recognizes is that we as a movement are very under-resourced and underfunded. we are more keen on working together to further the outcomes of our clients. So that is really encouraging. I’m gonna see, I’m excited to see more of that. I’m also excited to see how the tech world is gonna engage by trafficking.

[00:34:00] We are all across the board talking about that. And Nomi network is at the forefront of also doing it and incorporating AI and tech into our programming and interventions. So that’s really exciting. Is that, how can we use AI and tech to fight trafficking because right now the criminal network is using it at an exponential rate to target vulnerable peoples.

[00:34:25] And so I see really in the anti-trafficking movement in really leveraging that tech community as well.

[00:34:36] Sandie Morgan: Diana Mao Kelly, you took us to the garbage dumps of Egypt and now you’ve inspired us to be part of a movement going forward with limited resources. So we have to depend on each other. We have to figure out how we are going to engage the tech responses. So we’re not just, I’ve been talking to a lot of people about how they’re protecting youth and they build fences around them when we actually need to empower them, strengthen them, put scaffolding around them so they can take the lead and.

[00:35:25] I just wanna stay in your orbit. I wanna learn from you and I wanna see how my students can be just like you.

[00:35:37] Diana Mao: Oh, well, it’s such an honor. Sandie, you are a great inspiration to me, and I firmly believe that your students will go 10 times farther than me and the anti-trafficking movement because the sky’s the limit. And I feel like young people nowadays know so much more technology wise and are much more hungry, that new wind, fresh wind, fresh fire that this movement needs.

[00:36:08] So I’m excited to see the people under you being raised up.

[00:36:13] Sandie Morgan: And how we pass the baton to the next generation. You are a leader now. I am nearing the end of my leadership and I want to pass it off well, so that it is moving people, moving students, moving communities down that thousand step pathway that you’ve described. Thank you so much for being here today.

[00:36:43] Diana Mao: Thank you, Sandie.

[00:36:45] Delaney: A huge thank you to Diana Mao for helping us understand that trafficking isn’t just about deception, it’s about desperation. When you have five mouths to feed, you might take a job, you know is risky, and that’s why economic empowerment is the frontline of prevention. Listeners, if you love this conversation, make sure to check out our website at endinghumantrafficking.org for tons of in-depth show notes and other resources.

[00:37:09] If you’d love to help us grow this podcast, you can start by sharing this episode with somebody and connecting with us. Thank you.

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Michael Dominguez joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as they explore how the hospitality industry can move beyond discomfort to become a powerful force in preventing human trafficking through intentional cultural change and staff empowerment.

https://youtu.be/2kniCIaa21g

Michael DominguezMichael Dominguez is the President and CEO of Associated Luxury Hotels International (ALHI), where he leads a global sales organization of nearly 80 professionals across 26 offices worldwide, serving as a trusted partner for meeting and event professionals seeking the best independent luxury properties and experiences. With over 30 years of experience in luxury meetings and events, Michael holds the Certified Hospitality Sales Executive (CHSE) credential and has earned multiple accolades for his leadership. He is an active and influential member of several industry associations, including serving as Past Chairman of Meeting Professionals International’s (MPI) International Board and co-chairing Meetings Mean Business. Michael has been recognized among the “Top 25 Most Influential People in the Meetings Industry” and “50 Most Influential Hispanics in the U.S.” In 2025, he received the ASAE Global Association Visionary Award. Under his leadership, ALHI has become a leader in anti-trafficking efforts within the hospitality industry, earning the Freedom Award for their commitment to this cause.

Key Points* The hospitality industry lost critical ground during the pandemic when hotels shifted to mobile check-in and bypassed front desks, which had been a primary checkpoint for identifying potential trafficking situations. * Training hotel staff to recognize trafficking signs includes looking for unusual requests like multiple room keys, excessive towels and linens, extended “do not disturb” signs beyond 24 hours, and implementing wellness checks within that timeframe. * Major hotel brands and management companies are now required to participate in American Hotel Lodging Association’s accredited training programs, though franchise owners and smaller independent properties remain gaps in universal coverage. * Making people “uncomfortable for 10 minutes” at every opportunity is essential because the hospitality industry naturally avoids discussing difficult topics, yet this intentional discomfort drives cultural change and awareness. * Personal storytelling that puts a human face to trafficking—such as sharing survivor Faith Ramos’s story—creates deeper impact than statistics alone and motivates 80% of people to ask how they can help. * The “pounding the rock” philosophy from the San Antonio Spurs—asking daily “are we better today than yesterday?”—provides a framework for sustained, incremental progress in anti-trafficking efforts across the industry. * Collaboration is expanding beyond hotels to include clients, electrical companies adding hotline information to service trucks, and organizations like the Aruna Project that employ survivors, demonstrating how every sector can play a position in the broader movement. * AI technology offers hope for identifying trafficking patterns by analyzing unusual service requests and alerting staff to abnormal frequency of activities that might otherwise go unnoticed in large hotels.

Resources* Episode 352 – Empowering Change: Holding Hotels Accountable for Trafficking * Spurs Video – “A Beautiful Game”

Transcript[00:00:00] Michael Dominguez: One thing I promised is, I promise you I’m gonna make people uncomfortable, at least for 10 minutes at every opportunity I can.

[00:00:06] Delaney Mininger: Every hotel is either part of the prevention network or a gap that traffickers exploit. And the signs are there, multiple room keys, extra towels, privacy signs that are up for days. And when COVID removed their front desk check-in, they lost their most important checkpoint.

[00:00:22] Leaders like Michael are showing us how to rebuild it and make it stronger. Hi, I’m Delaney Mininger, a student here at Vanguard University and I help produce the show. Our guest today is Michael Dominguez and he will be speaking with Sandra Morgan. Michael is the president and CEO of Associated Luxury Hotels International, the Freedom Award recipient, and he’s leading his industry’s fight against trafficking with intentional cultural change, and now here’s their conversation.

[00:00:56] Sandie Morgan: I am here with Michael Dominguez, president and CEO of Associated Luxury Hotels International. Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast.

[00:01:09] Michael Dominguez: Thank you so much, and thank you for the invite. It’s excited to be here.

[00:01:13] Sandie Morgan: Well, and people usually expect my experts to be from law enforcement, aftercare, prevention, but you are very unique. And the first time I met you, was on Zoom. We haven’t met in person, but we’re looking forward to making that happen. I saw the Spurs jersey in the background in your office, and can you tell me why that’s there? Cause it made so much sense to so much of what we’re doing.

[00:01:50] Michael Dominguez: Without a doubt. And, I’ve mentioned that, you know, first and foremost I was born and raised in San Antonio. So there’s the connection to the Spurs. But, the Spurs have been an organization that has been literally featured and studied around their culture. And the reason that matters is it’s, yeah, the basketball and what they’ve done on the court and their wins and their championships and the most winning franchise over a 30 year window.

[00:02:15] Yeah, all that matters. But the important part is their culture and their culture and how it’s built and how it’s maintained. You know, it’s amazing that they’ve been in the league over 50 years and they’ve only missed the playoffs nine times. Ever.

[00:02:30] Sandie Morgan: Wow.

[00:02:31] Michael Dominguez: And it’s that kind of measure of success that they’ll tell you the culture is special. They’re a small market team. You know, they’re not LA, they’re not New York, it’s San Antonio. And, and yet they’re so successful and their culture is all built around respect and people. You know, there’s a book that everybody that comes into our organization gets a book called, Culture Code by Daniel Coyle.

[00:02:55] And it’s in a, it’s a study of organizations that do culture really well and that are really unique and, you know, Navy Seal Team Six is in there, as well as about 30 pages dedicated to the San Antonio Spurs. And, and it talks about their culture and how it’s put together and how thoughtful everything is.

[00:03:15] Everybody who comes into our organization, they actually get a rock. And this rock has a story on it and it’s kind of our mantra and very much Sandie kind of applies to the work that is being done around trafficking. And the mantra is very simple and, I had the privilege of being able to go see their locker room.

[00:03:33] It’s the only thing in the Spurs locker room. The mantra is a story by a 1920s immigrant rights activist named Jacob Reese. The story simply says, when all hope fails, I think of a stone cutter hammering away at a stone more than a hundred times with no success. And on the hundred first strike, the stone splits, and I know it’s a hundred strikes before that split the stone.

[00:03:55] and the mantra of the Spurs is we’re just pounding the rock. The rock is our mantra here at ALHI and pounding the rock is a very simple way to live. Where are we better today than we are yesterday? And if we are, we hit another, we’ve hit the rock one more time. And when I say that’s perfect for the work we’re doing around trafficking, all we can do is continue to hit the rock.

[00:04:20] If we continue to hit the rock together, eventually that rock will split.

[00:04:24] Sandie Morgan: Wow. Well, this may be the shortest podcast ever. That was Drop the mic. That’s what will do. But seriously, after our last conversation, I got the book. I read the book and became your fan too. And so, I had never real, I think I’d heard the team name Spurs,

[00:04:46] Michael Dominguez: Yeah.

[00:04:47] Sandie Morgan: Then, Coach Popovich, his influence that inspires you, really I believe is something very transferable to our mission and our work to do prevention as well as identification and intervention. So.

[00:05:08] Michael Dominguez: I could not agree with you more, and you know, just as if you’re gonna build a great culture, it has to be intentional around your leadership. I believe the work around here has to be intentional. It has to be pervasive. It has to be intentional, it has to be every day. And that’s something that, you know, we’ve really grown as an organization.

[00:05:27] And you know, what I was proud of, you know, proud of is that this was the piece I wanted to focus on as an organization. ’cause I was very passionate around it, where I was excited as it started with a team of six. That was our committee to kind of figure out how we’re gonna drive this initiative through our organization and how we’re gonna start to live and breathe awareness around human trafficking and what we can do.

[00:05:51] And then where I’m most proud is the entire organization has embraced it. And what I think is really interesting as a sales organization, they’ve embraced it even further because they figure, they know how much it resonates with our client base. Now that’s not why we do it. But for our clients to understand, you know, Sandie, I just came back from our largest show in our industry.

[00:06:11] It’s called IMEX America. We had 12,000 people in Las Vegas.

[00:06:15] It’s an intense appointment based show. We had a thousand appointments in our booth over a three day window, all about business and future conferences. But we have, they’re hosted buyers and we had a large hosted buyer group and we have a hosted buyer breakfast, and at our breakfast,

[00:06:32] You know, and it, even pre-breakfast, we sent ’em a note, but at the breakfast I made an announcement. I said, look, if you’re in this room, you’re doing okay. And if you’re in this room, we’ve decided instead of giving you a bunch of gifts that you probably don’t need, we’re gonna

[00:06:46] Sandie Morgan: With our brand on the side.

[00:06:48] Michael Dominguez: Exactly. We are, we are gonna make a large contribution in lieu of those gifts to our efforts around human trafficking impact.

[00:06:56] Sandie Morgan: Wow.

[00:06:57] Michael Dominguez: And there is unsolicited applause from the group to say, you know, instead of you getting a gift, you’re contributing to something that’s a really great cause. That’s where this starts to pick up steam, because who is not gonna be in favor of us working towards, you know, what I call modern day slavery and helping, you know, this main issue.

[00:07:18] And there’s nobody. But for some reason, as I say, we’re the hospitality industry and because it’s uncomfortable, we don’t like talking about things that are uncomfortable. When we won the Freedom Award, a few years back in, in my acceptance speech, the one thing I promised is, I promise you I’m gonna make people uncomfortable, at least for 10 minutes at every opportunity I can.

[00:07:40] And that’s what I mean by being intentional.

[00:07:42] Sandie Morgan: Wow, and, and that’s almost sounds like an oxymoron coming from you. We were just talking about the book, Unreasonable Hospitality. We had tech challenges yesterday because it was raining here in Orange County and you were gracious and kind and hospitable to the nth degree. So making people uncomfortable has a purpose here, and you know how to do this because your expertise in the hospitality industry, your advocacy, your innovative approach combined with your influence is

[00:08:25] Obviously moving the needle, and so I wanna jump right into the big question I sent to you ahead of time. In episode 352, we spoke with attorney Pat McDonough about his groundbreaking $40 million jury verdict against a hotel for enabling child sex trafficking. You can go back to that episode, listeners

[00:08:58] and hear about the 16-year-old client that was trafficked in just 40 days while hotel staff sold her condoms and ignored obvious signs.

[00:09:13] Sandie Morgan: So give us your reaction and how hotels can do so much better.

[00:09:20] Michael Dominguez: Yeah. You know, I, I put that as an outlier, Sandie, in being that latent in ignoring the situation of what it is. And I say it’s an outlier because over the last five years, I don’t wanna discredit the tremendous work that has been done by the American Hotel Lodging Association by my industry organizations, which are MPI and PCMA, and this is in the forefront and AHLA taking a huge lead, you know, on this, which was, you know, most hotels are part of the American Hotel Lodging Association.

[00:09:57] So by being part of the largest association that now has an accredited program to train around human trafficking and what the signs are and what that looks like. I think the work being done is really positive. Where we lost a lot of ground, and I feel we’ve made it up over the last 18 months, was during the pandemic.

[00:10:18] Sandie Morgan: Oh.

[00:10:19] Michael Dominguez: The pandemic was a very odd time. And what we talk about in the hotel industry, and it’s not an excuse, it just means we have a lot of other focuses going on at the same time, and you can kind of miss it. You didn’t have the same level of staff that we have during normal times. So you know that those are things you have to consider in the environment, but in normal environments, this is very, very, very much on focus.

[00:10:44] Something that people would look at, you would not see, and where I think you almost have to separate it. Our industry, when I present about the industry, I talk about us being bifurcated and we are bifurcated as well, in that I have my main brand hotels and mainstream hotels. Then you have some hotels that are just kind of outliers.

[00:11:04] The outliers are the harder ones because the mainstream hotels, they’re all part of programming today. They’re training housekeepers, they’re training front desk staff.

[00:11:13] Sandie Morgan: So one response I’ve received when I’ve reached out to executives at certain hotels. They explained to me the difference between a hotel owner and a franchise owner,

[00:11:32] And so when I talked to a franchise owner, and I’m not going to use the brand, I was discouraged and insulted because

[00:11:44] Sandie Morgan: he said I didn’t sign that code of conduct. That’s, yeah. And I’m here for blah, blah, blah. And so there was no training going on there,

[00:11:56] And there was no culture of human dignity that was being promoted. So how do I deal with understanding the difference between a hotel brand and a franchise?

[00:12:11] Michael Dominguez: Well, a couple of things is, the brands today, you can name any of ’em, any of the large brands. They don’t own any of their hotels, Sandie, they’re management companies. Where it’s gotten further than that is, you know, even some of the largest brands in the world. IE someone like Marriott.

[00:12:30] They only manage a small portion of all of those hotels. Of those almost 10,000 hotels around the world, the rest of it are licensed and franchised. And where it gets bifurcated once again, is that the owners of these hotels, it’s not the owners by the way. The owners do not run the hotels.

[00:12:50] The owners own the asset and it’s a real estate asset. So the owners traditionally hire a management company. Those management companies, there’s hundreds of ’em today will be hired because an owner says, I’m gonna, I’m gonna license a Marriott franchise, I’m gonna hire a management company to manage it.

[00:13:12] ’cause Marriott’s not managing it for me. I’m just part of the marketing system. So where it’s bifurcated is these professional management companies, they’re doing a really good job around this effort as well. There’s lots of ’em. The Ambridge of the world, the pyramids of the world. They’re doing a good job.

[00:13:28] And they’re involved in it just like any major brand would be. But they’re not a brand. They’re actually supporting a brand from the franchise. So it’s a very convoluted world today in the hotel world and how it’s owned and managed. But my point to all that is any of your top management companies, any of your top brands, they’re all focused on this and they are doing their due diligence to make sure that people are educated and aware

[00:13:56] Of the issue and really pushing it forward. And then there’s many on the client side, you know, we’re partners with Maritz, which is a large intermediary company that does everything from full planning to, you know, program work for their group of customers. And they’re one of the largest in our industry.

[00:14:15] And they have been part of the code for over a decade, and they have been promoting this for over a decade. And you know, David Peckinpaugh, their CEO just won the Freedom Award this year and was recognized for their work. So my thing is, it’s getting broader and broader in our industry. And this is something that many people are involved in.

[00:14:34] You’re always gonna have these outliers, and that’s incumbent upon all of us to make the bad actors, not be bad actors. And, you know, I’m encouraged that, you know. Understand there is a, there’s legal and ethical, not even a liability involved, but there’s an ethical responsibility, but there’s also a responsibility in running your business because there is liability involved in that.

[00:14:59] And that’s what the case showed. But I, I don’t want to, wouldn’t want to paint it that there’s not a lot of good work done. And I think everything in life is Pareto, you know, it’s 80 20, it’s the 80 20 rule.

[00:15:12] Sandie Morgan: Yeah. Okay.

[00:15:14] Michael Dominguez: We’re, I would think we’re probably 70 30 in that ball. We’re not quite at Pareto yet, but you’ve got a lot of people that are focused and pointed in the right direction and movin in the right direction where I’m encouraged that we’re gonna continue to make a dent.

[00:15:28] Sandie Morgan: Well walk us through what training looks like for you. For staff and who, who’s included in staff. Because I had one conversation where the security people did not respond when we asked them to report what we were observing.

[00:15:48] And, and so we went to and asked to speak to the night manager and they said, oh, that’s a third party contract. So we don’t have any control. So who gets the training?

[00:16:00] Michael Dominguez: Well that, and that’s my point about the bifurcation. You, you’re not gonna find anything universal, but you’re gonna find many, again, of the main brands, you don’t have a lot of contract security. They’re gonna be hotel security, they’re gonna be employees, and that’s all, that’s all training. You bring up a good point though, that is to make sure all our contractors.

[00:16:19] Are we requiring all our contractors to go through the same training that we’re requiring

[00:16:22] Sandie Morgan: Yes.

[00:16:23] Michael Dominguez: Our team to go through? That, that’s probably a great opportunity for us to kind of close the gap just a little bit. But the training is intense and it’s deep. And, you know, the biggest points of influence are gonna be around housekeeping, front desk.

[00:16:38] And then of course the management that would have to deal with it. And that would be, it’s not that much training on what to do when you come across it because it’s, please call law enforcement. And don’t try to be in the middle of this because all that happens is you put somebody else in danger, you put the literally trafficked individual in danger and you put yourself in danger.

[00:17:01] So that’s not the hard training. The hard training is dial 9 1 1. That is not hard to train on. It is being able to identify and understand how things look and what that looks like. And Sandie, I mentioned the pandemic. We kind of went backwards during the pandemic because one of our greatest points of of identification were at the front desk, it had always been at the front desk.

[00:17:23] Well, during the pandemic, what we got really good at because of the pandemic, was bypassing the front desk and getting into mobile check-in and

[00:17:31] Sandie Morgan: Oh, Oh,

[00:17:34] Michael Dominguez: Which means one of our anchors on training now has less relevance. I don’t wanna say no, but less relevance than it did in the past. So we have to rethink that, revamp it.

[00:17:46] So now your responsibility falls more on back of the house, it’s making sure the housekeepers, when they’re in a room, what are they identifying? And somebody that has a privacy, you know, a privacy sign on their door, it’s not gonna stay on for three days without us going to check a room. And that’s where hotels are getting better, that there will be a wellness check in a 24 hour window, even with a privacy sign if it’s been more than 24 hours, that type of thing.

[00:18:12] But you know, there, there are easy signs there, there’s always a request for more towels, more amenities, those type of things for the rooms. More extra linens. Those are things that are now identifiers. And, and this is where I have hope, Sandie, that you know, where we’re going with AI and the ability to identify things is like, you know, I’m sure we can create a system where AI is looking at the identifier quickly and bringing up alerts of requests that are happening and, and how frequent they are.

[00:18:43] Because looking at a large hotel, these requests sometimes can be under the radar. Because those requests can be common with normal guests. You know, why would normal guests need extra sheets? They have kids. Somebody wet the bed, they’re trying to make sure they’re prepared. It’s all of those things, that do happen and some of that is normal.

[00:19:02] But then you get the abnormal

[00:19:04] Sandie Morgan: Alright, so those trainings and policies, that’s moving us, I like the having, a metric to follow the trend. So that 70 30 is your estimation of where we are. Hotel awareness and training, understanding and identifying and oh my goodness, the examples that you used for what people ask of, of housekeeping are not on my signs list

[00:19:39] when I’m training, in general communities. So the expertise in the hospitality industry is really helpful for those, particularly our community motels that may not be associated with a bigger group and, and to really think about outliers. Are they outliers because of some, nefarious agenda, or are they just not big enough to be included in some of the greater, agendas and strategies?

[00:20:22] Michael Dominguez: Yeah, I, I think it’s a little bit of both. And, and I think there’s, you know, that some of the things when you talk about what to look for. I’ve only had one hotel manager that did this, but I was so impressed with what he did in regards to the fact that you only had one key per ID that would be issued.

[00:20:49] You know how you go to hotels and they ask you, how many keys do you want? He’s like, no. Single key, single ID. You want two keys? Gimme another ID. And it, the reason that matters is because, again, another sign to look for, at the front desk, is multiple keys. Because today the elevators, many of the elevators are keyed off by floor, which means you need multiple keys if you’re trying to send people up the room or get ’em up to the floor of those type of things.

[00:21:15] So multiple keys is another, another one of those signs that we look for. But I think it’s just important in that when you ask about the training, that’s the kind of training that we’ve continued to see, you know,

[00:21:27] Sandie Morgan: And a lot of our hotel staff, especially in housekeeping, are not first language English speakers. So how do we accommodate for training in multiple languages?

[00:21:47] Michael Dominguez: Well, the funny thing is, if you think about it, we have to train them in multiple languages on everything else we do in the hotel, so that’s not the issue. There’s no way to train ’em how to do the room without training ’em in multiple languages. And there’s no way to train ’em on all the other policies we have at a hotel without training ’em in different languages.

[00:22:06] So that’s really not a holdup as much as making sure that the human trafficking and the signs we’re looking for are part of the training. That’s the important part of it, because we have to train ’em on everything else, you know?

[00:22:19] Sandie Morgan: That, that is in so many sectors, that I work with in the nonprofit world. Translating materials into other languages is a barrier and, but obviously your guests come from around the world and I do have to do a shout out to Surf and Sand here in Orange County. And Amy McLimore, she’s the one that really helped me begin to understand this, and she told me she’d already gone through training and we got connected because of her passion

[00:22:59] for pursuing this. And that kind of brings us back to the culture that is a top down leadership agenda item. So I have a couple more questions. The first one is, how do leaders effectively integrate this human rights issue, human dignity, into the culture of their hospitality?

[00:23:29] Michael Dominguez: I think one, you have to learn how to be a good storyteller and when I’m learning, when I tell you that this is uncomfortable for the hospitality industry at times, because we don’t talk about, we’re warm and fuzzy people, so we don’t like to dwell too long on this. And I also have always have to think like when I’m at a live event, where do I place this and how do I emphasize it?

[00:23:52] And what I don’t do is overemphasize it for a three day window, but make sure I’m taking 10 minutes to be very impactful. Make sure they understand that. And the fact that we run an auction at every one of our events and there’s these auctions running and we’re reminding ’em, the auction is running, it’s reminding them about human trafficking over a three day window without it, after

[00:24:13] I’ve already teed it up on why we’re doing this and why it matters. And you know what the difference is. And one of the things I do, Sandie now, is I have an image and it’s from the Freedom Award. When I won the award and I took a picture with Faith Ramos. The reason I do this is Faith Ramos is part of the survivor’s council.

[00:24:33] She’s been on our podcast. She was trafficked from 14 to 17 years old. And when I tell Faith’s story high level, like, why am I so passionate? Because it becomes personal when you put a human being into it. And I think sometimes we story tell, and I haven’t quite hit the connection because they can’t see a face and a person and a human being.

[00:24:58] And by me showing that it’s made a difference because it’s impactful. I can say, I know Faith. I’ve gotten to know Faith, and she is a woman. I think she was named appropriately because she has a great deal of faith. But you look at what she’s done. I said it’s very personal with me because I’ve met not only Faith, I’ve met others on the Survivor Council.

[00:25:21] When you realize how prevalent it is, and that we can make a difference. I was like, I have no other choice than to accept that responsibility. And that’s storytelling. And when you can grab somebody in storytelling, that’s when you can make an impact. And I don’t think enough leaders that they talk about the what,

[00:25:39] they don’t understand the why, and they don’t explain the why enough. So I’m always explaining the why and that is the one that can kind of hit you in the face, shake you up. And, and again, I go back to Pareto, not everybody in the room is gonna resonate with it. Not everybody’s going to jump on the bandwagon, but you’ll probably get 80% of the people saying, what else can I do?

[00:26:02] How? How else can I learn? And that’s what you’re trying to do. And I always say one person at a time is how we can make a difference.

[00:26:09] Sandie Morgan: That’s so good and I follow Faith as well, and I need to reach out and invite her to do an interview here too. Yeah. So,

[00:26:17] Michael Dominguez: She’s a wonderful human being.

[00:26:18] Sandie Morgan: So talking about the Pareto, we’re at 70 30, we wanna be at 80 20. Actually, I’m an overachiever, so I’m going for 90 10. Yeah, join me. So tell me, looking ahead, you are using your influence, your leadership as a force for good.

[00:26:44] What gives you hope that we will make it to the 80 20 this decade?

[00:26:50] Michael Dominguez: The fact that everywhere I go and we have a conversation, that I have another company coming up and saying, you know what? I got an idea. This is how we could help. I had a client that is one of the largest, literally electrical associations, in the country. So all the electrical companies, you know, basically are part of his association.

[00:27:14] He goes, Mike, how do we put trafficking information on the side of every truck they’re in, every neighborhood they’re in,

[00:27:21] Sandie Morgan: Oh yeah.

[00:27:22] Michael Dominguez: Every city. The fact that people, you start triggering ideas to say, how can I help with messaging? How can I help with awareness? How can we do that? That gives me a lot of hope and what I’ve learned, Sandie, and the fact that we’re having this conversation is a great example.

[00:27:38] The more I am engaged and explain our commitment to trafficking, the more I continue to get introduced to a large group of people

[00:27:45] Sandie Morgan: Mm.

[00:27:46] Michael Dominguez: that are doing a lot of good work in different cities and we have a magazine called Beyond the Meeting Room, and we always feature a different organization that’s doing some really great work in human trafficking awareness and they’ve all been brought to us by clients or members or somebody else.

[00:28:02] And yeah, you know, the same thing. Our dear friend at the Surf and Sand is why you and I are connected.

[00:28:08] She knows I have a passion about this and that’s why we’re connected. And the more that you’re putting it out there, the more I continue to get introduced to

[00:28:21] a bunch of people and organizations that are doing good work. And the reason that matters is the more that we know we’re doing good work and the more that we can help each other, the bigger the cause that means we just have greater momentum.

[00:28:31] I got introduced to the Aruna project in, you know, in Atlanta. And, you know, we do a lot of gifting in our industry, especially on the sales side of it.

[00:28:40] Well, the Aruna project is literally some great gifting items and bags and gift bags and leather goods. But every single person employed with the Aruna project is a survivor from trafficking, and it’s letting people know you’re going to buy these products anyway, but by buying these products, you’re supporting an organization that is helping women that have been trafficked and getting them into stable jobs, stable housing, and getting their lives back on track.

[00:29:06] Those are the opportunities

[00:29:07] Sandie Morgan: See. That’s teamwork. Or in my world, we talk about collaboration and every time you add a new thread to the connections, that means when we have a denser safety net victims won’t fall through unidentified, unseen. And I love that we started this conversation about basketball. It was the only sport in high school that I actually shined in because I was a guard.

[00:29:44] And I think, ’cause I’m vertically challenged, people actually tripped over me. But I learned a really important lesson playing basketball. My gym teacher, Ms. Marston, made sure we left that season understanding everybody plays their position. If you try to play somebody else’s position, the team will not thrive.

[00:30:14] And I love that your training says, call the hotline, call the police, do your part and then pass the ball. And that’s so significant.

[00:30:28] Michael Dominguez: You just, Sandie, since you played, I will send you a clip later, but it is, it is a video that was done in 2014. It’s called A Beautiful Game, it was all done around the San Antonio Spurs and it was, it’s narrated by Magic Johnson to start.

[00:30:44] Sandie Morgan: Oh, wow

[00:30:44] Michael Dominguez: But what he’s talking about is this unique culture and as Pop likes to say, he goes, you know, we deal with a bunch of people that got over themselves long ago, and it’s a very low ego team.

[00:30:59] And the reason the Spurs won’t have a leading scorer or necessarily a leading rebound, or they’ll have a bunch of people in the top 10, but they’re not gonna be the leading because every night somebody else is gonna be the leading scorer because who has the best matchup? Who has the best open shot? And that’s how the team looks at it, even with this group of superstars.

[00:31:18] And that’s a different mentality, but it’s exactly what you said. And they were the first team to bring in a bunch of Europeans because Pop always said, you know, they still know how to pass the ball.

[00:31:28] Sandie Morgan: Mm. Oh.

[00:31:30] Michael Dominguez: Europeans are great passers and they’re not they’re not big dribblers on one-on-one isolation. They literally move the ball around and that’s what the Spurs are known for. And you’ll hear ’em say, we have a shot. I’ve got a shot, but you’ve got a better shot. And, and to know, here’s my excitement. They’re now into their next generation and about to run with Wemby being their superstar, who came from France and is one of the most humble individuals you’ll ever meet.

[00:31:57] He’s seven five, but moves like a guard. The guy is so nimble, but the other day asking him about a shot he gave up to one of his teammates and he said, I could have made that shot, with my eyes closed. And he says, but my teammate could have made that shot in his sleep

[00:32:16] Sandie Morgan: Wow.

[00:32:18] Michael Dominguez: And that’s why I passed it up. But he is their star, but willing to always say, I’ve got a teammate that is wide open and can make that every day.

[00:32:30] Sandie Morgan: Passing the ball. Passing the ball. That’s right.

[00:32:33] Michael Dominguez: And it’s never about me. It’s about us. And what makes us most effective. And one of the things I did not share with you is, in front of me, which you can’t see, is another jersey and it’s Manu Ginobili.

[00:32:46] Ginobili was with the Spurs through that entire run with Duncan behind me. And Ginobili was the most decorated international basketball player of all time. Came from Argentina. He’s won Olympic gold with Argentina. He literally is already in the Hall of Fame here in the US. Yeah, but here’s the thing.

[00:33:06] Ginobili for his entire career came off the bench for the Spurs, did not start when he would’ve started with any other team in the NBA, only because it made the Spurs better. And the interesting thing is he was willing to sacrifice that. But if you ever look at the Spurs, when none of them cared about their ego,

[00:33:26] None of them cared about individual awards. What they cared about was winning championships. And the reason they were so deadly for all that time is who else has a future hall of Famer running their second unit? The Spurs never went down with the second unit in. And if you look at the Spurs stats, everybody plays about the same amount of minutes whether you start or whether you come off the bench.

[00:33:48] And that’s what’s unique with their organization, they believe in their system, they believe in a team system. So it’s not about some player always playing 35 minutes a game for them to win. But that unselfishness around Ginobili is what I think permeated through the Spurs. And you heard it often, you know their starting point guard, Tony Parker, who’s another hall of Famer.

[00:34:12] His entire career in the middle of the season, they had drafted a young point guard and during a shoot around Pop puts his arm around Tony and says, it’s time. And what he meant was, you’re gonna come off the bench, the young kid’s gonna start, and your job now is to teach ’em everything you know. And the interesting was, Sandie, there was no press conference.

[00:34:32] No big to-do. Tony said, how could I ever complain when Manu came off the bench his entire career? Like how can, that’s not the Spurs way is you’re gonna do what you’re asked to do to make the team better.

[00:34:46] And that’s what I think we should be doing as a society here.

[00:34:48] Sandie Morgan: That’s exactly what our movement needs to hear right now. And I’m kind of in that space where trying to learn how to pass the ball to the up and coming voices and leaders in this movement and my friends who have been with me for decades, this is something we have to grab a hold of.

[00:35:13] Mike, I appreciate your time. This won’t be our last conversation and hopefully our next one will be in person.

[00:35:21] Michael Dominguez: Absolutely. We’re looking to January.

[00:35:24] Sandie Morgan: Yes, January. Yes. We’ll reach out to Surf and Sand. We’ve got plans. If you’re listening and you’re in Orange County, let me know and we’ll definitely make sure you get invited.

[00:35:39] So thank you so much for being here, Mike. I appreciate you.

[00:35:43] Michael Dominguez: Thank you for the invite, Sandie, and thank you for all the good work you’re doing.

[00:35:46] Sandie Morgan: Alright, take care.

[00:35:48] Michael Dominguez: You too.

[00:35:49] Delaney Mininger: Thank you to Michael Dominguez for showing us how one industry leader can spark a movement. From training housekeepers on new signs to adding hotline numbers on electrical trucks, Michael shows us that every sector has a role to play.

[00:36:03] Listeners, if you loved this episode, make sure to check out the website endinghumantrafficking.org for tons of in-depth show notes and other resources.

[00:36:11] If you’d love to help us grow this podcast, you can start by sharing this episode with somebody you know, connecting with us on Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. As always, thanks for listening.

View Details

Clayton Cranford joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as they discuss how children need trusted adults who explicitly tell them that if something goes wrong online, it’s going to be okay—because what predators exploit most is a child’s fear of reaching out for help.

https://youtu.be/1t42r59-nIE

Clayton CranfordClayton Cranford is a former Orange County Sheriff’s Department Sergeant, school resource officer, and juvenile investigator with specialized expertise in behavioral threat assessment and online safety. He is the founder of Cyber Safety Cop, a program dedicated to educating parents, schools, and communities about how digital platforms can expose children to exploitation, grooming, and trafficking risks. With over 20 years in law enforcement and years working directly with youth and families, Cranford has trained tens of thousands of parents and educators nationwide on digital parenting strategies, social media risks, and emerging threats such as sextortion, encrypted apps, and AI-generated content. He is the author of Parenting in a Digital World and a recognized speaker at major school safety and cybersecurity conferences. His work aligns closely with prevention-first strategies and community collaboration, making him a valuable voice in the intersection of technology, youth safety, and anti-trafficking efforts.

Key Points* Boys are disproportionately targeted for financial sextortion schemes where predators impersonate young girls, quickly establish relationships through unsolicited images, and then extort victims for thousands of dollars, sometimes leading to tragic outcomes within hours. * Online predators use sophisticated grooming tactics on girls over weeks and months, often employing multiple fake personas to build trust before exploiting victims through threats of exposing images to friends and family, creating a cycle of exploitation that can last for years. * Parents must explicitly tell their children that no matter how embarrassed they are or how serious the situation seems, nothing will stop their love and support—because what children know intellectually about online safety often doesn’t align with their emotional responses in the moment. * AI companion apps have become widely adopted by teens, with nearly three-quarters having tried them and half using them regularly, yet these apps lack regulation, age verification, and safeguards against encouraging self-harm or creating unhealthy parasocial relationships. * School resource officers serve as crucial intervention points not for enforcement but for building trusted relationships where students feel comfortable reporting concerns about peers or seeking help before situations escalate to emergencies. * The rapid adoption of smartphones from less than 20% to over 80% of teens in just three years created a gap where parents handed their children powerful devices without understanding the risks of platforms like Snapchat and Discord that facilitate anonymous contact and exploitation. * Prevention requires parents to understand how apps work, implement age-appropriate monitoring tools, ensure notification requirements for app downloads, and have concrete plans with their children about who to contact if something goes wrong online. * Legislative action is urgently needed to require age verification, transparency about AI safeguards, and regulation of technologies being rapidly deployed to children without adequate study of downstream mental health and safety impacts.

Resources* Cyber Safety Cop website and resources

Transcript[00:00:00] Clayton Cranford: parents had no idea what they were, what they were kind of getting themselves into when they handed their kid a phone.

[00:00:06] Sandie Morgan: She calls her tattoo sleeves “armor,” covering years of scars from predators who convinced her they were her friends, when what she really needed was one trusted adult. And that’s what your kids need too. Someone who says explicitly, if this happens, it’s going to be okay.

[00:00:31] I’m Dr. Sandie Morgan with Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice. And my guest today is Clayton Cranford. He’s a former school resource officer, juvenile investigator, father of two, and founder of Cyber Safety Cop teaching parents and students how to stay safe online. Now here’s our conversation.

[00:01:05] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, Clay. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen you. I still remember when your mother introduced me to you.

[00:01:17] Clayton Cranford: That must have been a while. Yeah, that was a while ago.

[00:01:19] Sandie Morgan: at that point, I, I just promoted out of, I was a school resource officer, just promoted to the school threat assessment team.

[00:01:27] Clayton Cranford: and a lot is, you know, a lot’s happened since then.

[00:01:29] Sandie Morgan: Well, and your book is like the fourth edition now.

[00:01:34] Clayton Cranford: Yeah, I just updated the, this summer and it was actually a complete rewrite. It was, I, I really considered just calling it a new book, but I’m like, you know what? I like, I like the name of my book. And it is, parenting in the digital world, and I’ve read a lot. I mean, I collect all the books that people are writing on this, on this topic, helping parents, parent their child to digital world. and I just felt like, I think parents need a little deeper insight of what, what actually is going on. Talking about things like ai, some new emerging things, and, more importantly, you know, parents, if they want to dig in really deep, I, I really kind of.

[00:02:14] Get way under, like what’s actually happening. Like what is the, the title forces, behind this technology and, and, and how it’s changing our kids, but also then making it very simple and saying, Hey, these are the, these are the conversations you need to have, and these are the things you should start doing.

[00:02:31] And so before we started the show, we were reminiscing. And you mentioned you started off when we were at the iPhone four.

[00:02:45] Sandie Morgan: So do a a capsule time capsule for us. How old were your kids? What have you experienced as a parent going from a flip phone to where we are today?

[00:03:00] Clayton Cranford: Yeah. So, original iPhone comes out in 2007, the iPhone four in 2010, which had the first forward facing camera on an iPhone. And at that time, less than 20% of teens had smartphones. They all had the flip phone, they had like the razor phone, stuff like that. and then over the course of like two or three years, and this is when I was working as a school resource officer in retro center Margarita, I had 14,000 students, nine schools in that city.

[00:03:28] We went from less than 20% having smartphones. In about three years, we had more than 80%. So it was this huge uptake. And parents had no idea what they were, what they were kind of getting themselves into when they handed their kid a phone. Dealing with all the issues and everything from, you know, just being hurtful things happening, which, is to be expected, I guess, when kids are on these screens.

[00:03:51] But a lot of other things like sexting, sextortion, sexual exploitation, threats. When I was on the threat assessment team, most of our, most of our threats at schools were happening online. and it’s, figuring out, so we, I talked to BMI instructors. We talked to students K through 12 at schools all over the United States, but mostly here in Southern California.

[00:04:12] Although kids know like what is safe and not safe, but then at the same time to make bad choices online, really kind of understanding why this, why this is happening. Took me a while to figure out, but that’s kind of what we do now. We go to schools and we help kids kind of understand the digital world a bit better, then supporting parents so that they can mentor support their kids in the digital world as well.

[00:04:41] Sandie Morgan: All right, so you used a term from your past school resource officer. Do you wanna tell us what that role is? I think school resource officers are key in this battle.

[00:04:58] Clayton Cranford: They are, and the Orange County Sheriff’s Department and I, I, frankly, all the police departments here in Southern California, do a really good job of handpicking people. That are the right fit. ’cause you, ’cause you’re basically kind of embedded in the schools. And my office was at the an RSM Intermediate had, you know, I was their first school resource officer.

[00:05:19] And so, no, like, they were just happy that I was there. ’cause they’re like, we’re not sure what you’re gonna do, but we’re just happy you’re here. and so it was kind of, it was kind of to some degree up to me. To help fill that role and kind of figure it out. And that’s actually where the, a lot of the cyber safety came from, just based with the things were happening.

[00:05:38] But it was really being at that school every day, interfacing with the kids every day, being a positive influence. Men, I was a mentor. I wasn’t, I really wasn’t there to get, you know, to enforce things necessarily, but I was there if, if that needed to happen. And, and, and actually the three years as a school resource officer, I never arrested child.

[00:06:01] it was everything that I did there by and large was about supporting the kids, supporting the parents, supporting the administrators, and, and obviously, you know, safety on campuses is, you know, paramount obviously. So one of the, the other things I was involved with was, you know, being, going around to the schools in our city and making sure that they were secure and we would do assessments and, you know, we’d kinda shore up, you know, security issues, but.

[00:06:31] Most of the time me walking around talking to kids. And, and a lot of times I’d have, excuse me, I’d have a kid, you know, come up to me and say, you know, I was. I was on Skype last night with my friend, and she was talking about wanting to hurt herself and I wasn’t sure what to do, you know? So like I’d, I would have that kind of relationship with the students where they shared with me.

[00:06:53] And, and, and that’s really the, the power of, of, of having a school resource officer is, it’s not enforcement, it’s not necessarily a can be, but really it’s about, intervention and, and being proactive.

[00:07:10] Clayton Cranford: the best job I ever had. I loved it.

[00:07:12] Sandie Morgan: Oh, I, I can imagine that I would love that job too. And what you just said about that girl that asked you for a resource, what should I do? I do believe that equipping the students themselves to keep their community safe is key because they see things before it gets to the point

[00:07:38] where we have to intervene in an urgent or emergency situation. So, alright, let’s look at a few things about where we are now in digital spaces. What kind of online grooming are traffickers using as, tactics in, approaching our youth?

[00:08:05] Clayton Cranford: So there’s kind of two tracks. There’s, it’s the, we have, we have, people extorting our children for either child sex abuse material. So basically getting ’em in a situation, trapping them, threatening them, and then coercing them into creating more child sex abuse material for them, it’s for, for, for, monetary gain.

[00:08:29] It’s, it’s extorting them for money. So. It, it kind of happens in two very different ways. Our boys are, if you look at just the numbers of children who are, who are being extorted exploited online, boys are outstripping girls, by a mile for financial, extortion. So what happens is, They’ll, some, somebody will impersonate a young girl online, befriend, a young, a young boy, middle school, high school, college actually.

[00:09:01] quickly establish relationship like, and what that means is maybe sending them an unsolicited nude image and then asking that boy to reciprocate. With, with the promise that if he does, there’ll be more images coming his way or videos,

[00:09:19] Sandie Morgan: you immediately get a message from this person saying, if you don’t want everybody to see this, send me like, you know, a thousand dollars or $4,000. and, we have 10 tens of thousands of young men, being victimized every year.

[00:09:33] Clayton Cranford: It’s super under-reported. I have a parent calling me every other week, I think, messaging me, saying This happened to my kid, and they’re looking for advice or guidance. And sadly, we’ve had, I think last year more than 50 young men take their own lives they were so afraid, that that information would get out and ruin their life.

[00:09:58] And, I just, I talked to, two parents this year. Who both lost their, their children, their boys high school, and I think post high school, I think he was, maybe in college like, but still like maybe 19 or 20. And it only took a handful of hours between the threat and them taking their own lives.

[00:10:20] So, and then on the, on the, and then on the female side. on our girls side. that usually happens over weeks and months. It’s, it’s not something that happens quite as fast. usually, you know, your, your daughter, will be on a, will be on like a, a mainstream, social media site. And, she’ll get propositioned by someone who she thinks is a, who’s somebody her age and then invite her to, into a private chat, maybe on Discord or some other place.

[00:10:51] then. usually joined by other people who often are in on it. They’re, they’re also, adult men pretending to be high school or middle schoolers. then befriending them over weeks and months until finally they break down their inhibitions and their, and basically get them to maybe flash the camera.

[00:11:10] and both threats actually, I, I don’t think parents really understand like, what that threat is for a kid. Because what they’re hearing, from that person is that if you don’t do what I want you to do, whether it’s making images or videos, or giving this money, I’m gonna share this, this image with everyone you see.

[00:11:27] And just imagine you’re just some, you know, 12-year-old girl or something, and this person saying, I’m going to show this to all your friends. And they’re gonna see how dirty a horrible person you are, and they’re gonna leave you. You, no one will love you. Your parents will see this and they’re gonna throw you out.

[00:11:43] You’ll have nobody. So if you don’t do this, I will ruin your life and you’re gonna continue making images and videos for me for as long as I say. And, and, and that’s why we have kids, you know, taking their own lives, hurting themselves. I interviewed, recently a survivor interviewed her.

[00:12:07] She’s, we have a video that on our website. Her and her mom actually, this happened to her when she was 12 years old, and had her, they trafficked her online for four years and they were able to do that through the threat. She wanted to keep it a secret. She didn’t tell anyone and. They had this really diabolical plan where person, so they, they, enticed her to flash the camera and then a, who she thinks is a third party, comes in through Skype, actually not through this chat room that she was in, and they say, I hacked the website or something, and I have this video of you.

[00:12:46] So she goes back to the group. Who are responsible for all this, but she thinks are her friends, and she

[00:12:53] Sandie Morgan: Oh.

[00:12:53] Clayton Cranford: this just happened to me. they’re like, oh my gosh, we’re so sorry. And you just, you know, we’re gonna figure out, we’re gonna try to stop this. We’re gonna figure out who this person is, but just do whatever they were telling you to do we’re, and we’re gonna help you.

[00:13:06] We’re gonna try to protect you. So she keeps going back to the, to her, her tormentors, thinking they’re her friends. along while she’s being extorted by this other person who’s, who’s, who’s in this group. So they, they kept her on the hook for four years and, and, it was a, it was a living hell for her.

[00:13:28] She, started cutting herself, to deal with her anxiety and, and depression because of this happening to her.

[00:13:35] Sandie Morgan: Hmm.

[00:13:35] Clayton Cranford: And actually one of the guys who’s extorting her found that exciting. And, he actually extorted her to cut herself more on camera part of a kind of a fetish he had. And, she recently came out to Los Angeles to speak at a conference with me.

[00:13:55] I invited her she lives out in New Orleans, came out and what a powerful, young woman she is. And she’s willing, you know, to talk about this, but you know, she has, all sleeved up on her arm and she calls it her armor to cover up the scars.

[00:14:14] Sandie Morgan: Oh wow.

[00:14:16] Clayton Cranford: I, I guess when I talk to parents and I, and I, and I tell them that story about Kaylee, what I tell parents is you love your kid and you think your kid knows.

[00:14:29] That no matter what, you would be there for them that no matter what, if they had, if they needed help, you would give it to them. But we really explicitly need to tell our kids, well, one, that this kind of thing is happening. Like we need to just be upfront about like, these are the issues. And a lot of parents just don’t know to have that conversation.

[00:14:45] But more importantly, if you get into trouble, no matter how embarrassed you are or how horrible you think it is, nothing gonna stop me from loving you and.

[00:14:58] Sandie Morgan: Yeah.

[00:14:59] Clayton Cranford: It’s maybe, what I’ve discovered after talking to, to, to kids for the last 15 years, hundreds of thousands of them, is that it’s not really about what they know.

[00:15:10] ’cause they kind of know these things happen to some degree. But what they, but what they understand is that there is a reality beyond that screen. And what they’re doing on that screen is not really lining up with what they know to be true and safe. They’re doing things based on how it feels. And so you need to understand that even if you talk to your kid and they say, oh, mom and dad, I would never do that.

[00:15:32] You, you also need a plan that if they do it, they know what what they need to do, right? They need to, they need to know how to get outta that situation or know who to talk to. Or, I told my boys if, wasn’t me, if you couldn’t tell me because you’re embarrassed, of course I told him, you can tell me anything.

[00:15:50] But is there like an adult at the school that you trust

[00:15:53] Sandie Morgan: So you gotta have a plan.

I, I think one of the things you just hit on, that really connects to my background in pediatrics and working with young people is the sense of teen invincibility is a well-researched element in this prevention strategy because when we talk to our kids and we tell them who’s behind this screen,

[00:16:28] they sometimes kinda like roll their eyes. So I like this idea that they have a trusted adult besides a parent, but, parents are right there when some

[00:16:43] creep is online upstairs in their bedroom. What can parents do? What kinds of signs should they be looking for that might indicate they should intervene?

[00:16:58] Clayton Cranford: Well, so with boys, what’s scary about the boys is that they go from zero to a hundred very fast. And, and when I talk to that parent who lost her son within eight hours of the threat. You know, here’s a parent who loved their, loved their son. She said, we have a great relationship. Could tell me anything.

[00:17:16] And it still happened. So, I I, I, when I was talking to her, I was like, so what are we missing here? Like, are you telling me that there’s, there’s nothing? And she goes, well, she goes, I, you know, I never, I never had that conversation with him. I like explicitly said, if this happens, it’s gonna be okay. Your life’s not over.

[00:17:32] And in fact, when we go talk to students. with our, we talk to students K through 12, but when we, we kind of start talking about this like around fourth grade actually, we don’t get explicit, but we just say, Hey, if you make a mistake and if somebody’s scaring you, then you need to tell someone we, we start there.

[00:17:49] Then we get into middle school and high school. We get explicit. But you need to have that, you need to be look your kid in the eye and say, I don’t expect you to always make the right choice, but if you, but if you run into a problem like this, it’s gonna be okay. You can still talk to me. If you have a younger child, I think you should have, maybe you should install something on their device, like, like an app that would run in the background, maybe alert you if there’s a problem.

[00:18:18] there’s many out there like Bark or OurPact or something like that. There’s, there’s apps out there that will help you, but nothing’s really gonna replace that conversation with your kid. As far as behaviors go, I, I would say you, you kind of know what your child’s baseline behavior is, right?

[00:18:36] you, we immediately see a lot of withdrawal when, when a kid is in that situation and it, and, and withdrawal, is, is often the first sign that there’s something wrong. It could be various things. It, it, it just, they could be upset about something, but it, but it could also indicate something a little more serious and I think.

[00:18:52] You know, opening up that line of conversation with your kid and saying, Hey, what’s going on? Like, you’re, you’re hiding out in your room. like that’s something that we should start kind of digging into. I also think parents need to have a good understanding of how these apps are working and understand what, what, what’s involved.

[00:19:12] So, and, and like when I do my parent workshop, I, I go through the apps. I kind of give them my high level take. But if, if a parent wants to really get the nuts and bolts of like, you know, how does Snapchat work? What are the little things and all, you know, what does it all do? How does Discord work?

[00:19:29] Which, which is a very, very important social media app kind of community forum that parents have really no grip on, and it’s incredibly impactful and you need to understand the influences that are available to your child on that. Application and the, and the community groups that they can, join.

[00:19:52] And many of those are not healthy for your kid. There’s, there’s a lot in there that is not appropriate for them. And so if you want it, like I, I would say to a parent, if you want to understand it, I have videos on my website that walk you through it. I, I demonstrate the video, the, the, the, the apps. So you should kind of understand what those apps are, how do they work?

[00:20:13] And when I was an investigator and I would investigate, investigate crimes and write search warrants, you know, Snapchat was probably the one that I was most interacting with because of the, you know, the, the availability to talk to strangers on it, the disappearing messaging that can occur there. But discord, I think we’re gonna be hearing a lot more about it,

[00:20:39] Sandie Morgan: So tell us the how to find your website so we can see that video.

[00:20:41] Clayton Cranford: So go to cybersafetycop.com. And I have, these, I have webinars, that I do and, and you can see them there. So, they are, they are part of my membership. I do have a free trial for 30 days

[00:20:59] Sandie Morgan: Oh, okay.

[00:21:00] Clayton Cranford: That anybody can do free, no risk. Do it for 30 days, check out the videos.

[00:21:04] But there’s always something new. There’s always a new app, AI, AI companions, like there’s, there’s.

[00:21:11] Sandie Morgan: And we started talking a little bit about AI at the top of this conversation. So let’s go that direction and think about the emerging threats. And it feels to me as a healthcare professional that the idea of prevention is going to be critical here because by the time it’s fully unleashed on, on a kid

[00:21:42] it’s, it’s like trying to rescue someone from, from a, a river. And so what are your recommendations with the emerging technologies?

[00:21:56] Clayton Cranford: I would make sure that, you have a, you have your child’s app store set up so that you get notified for permission to download apps onto your child’s device. a lot of these AI companion apps, which by the way are, it’s different than like chat GPT. So basically, it’s a AI personality, I guess is the best way to describe it.

[00:22:21] It’s like an avatar. You can choose

[00:22:23] Sandie Morgan: Okay.

[00:22:23] Clayton Cranford: what the imagery, what the person looks like, usually sexually explicit is, is kind of the what’s happening right now. and then, and then you can kind of choose the personality of the ai and it just interacts with you and kind of learns about you and is, it is created to be very engaging in, in, in, in, app development

[00:22:47] they call it sticky. It, it makes you want to stay on that app, and they do that by manipulating your emotions. So if you’re a kid, especially who’s, you know, struggling with an, you know, with, with friendships or anxiety or, know, or, or just sexually kind of, kind of curious, and maybe you’re like, I just want to kind of talk to this.

[00:23:11] You know, maybe you have a boy who wants to talk to a female, but is like, but I’ll, I’m gonna try out talking to an app first. So it’s a, it’s a safe

[00:23:20] Sandie Morgan: Oh my goodness.

[00:23:21] Clayton Cranford: kind of entryway into these,

[00:23:23] Sandie Morgan: Safe with air quotes.

[00:23:25] Clayton Cranford: Yeah. Safe

[00:23:26] Sandie Morgan: From their perspective.

[00:23:28] Clayton Cranford: Yeah you don’t have, to worry about that person reacting in a way.

[00:23:31] Sandie Morgan: hmm.

[00:23:32] Clayton Cranford: And in fact it’s programmed to say great to whatever you say. So it, it’s, it’s kind of a false sense of connectedness. The, real problem here is that, number one, these things tend to get romantic and a little bit spicy, which obviously is wildly inappropriate for teens. And you could have a kid who becomes emotionally attached to, to this, to this app because it does mimic, you know, a, a person and, and

[00:24:04] there’s been, there’s been a couple, but there’s been a very few, but a few, children who were struggling with some of their, with their mental health and turned to an AI app like this for, for advice or connectedness. And, in fact, just recently in, in my city here in Rancho, we had a, we had a child who took their own life, last year

[00:24:27] Sandie Morgan: Mm.

[00:24:27] Clayton Cranford: And, and it was. and they were talking to this app, about doing that and the app kind of affirmed thoughts about, about taking their own life. So and I believe that family’s suing that company.

[00:24:42] Sandie Morgan: In light of that, what kind of policy changes should we be looking for? What can the community do to make it safer for our young people?

[00:24:55] Clayton Cranford: the these companies have zero regulation about how they do this. There’s no transparency about what’s going into these apps, they shove the technology down our throats. Parents don’t know enough to say, wait a minute. I don’t, know if this is okay for my kid.

[00:25:11] The kids adopt it without really a lot of discussion. And then later we discover this was not good, right? Like there are, there are downstream problems or like social media, like all the mental health issues we’re having with kids and the addictiveness. It’s now after, you know, 15 years that we’re now like, Hmm, maybe that wasn’t a good idea.

[00:25:30] So here comes, here comes AI coming like a freight train. And this particular. Kind of genre or, or aspect of AI is so captivating that, it’s, it’s, I I think it’s gonna be super addictive and so impactful and unfortunately there’s no discussion going on right now, whether this is okay for our kids.

[00:25:55] Very little. Common Sense Media just did a survey this year on this particular thing, AI companion or AI chat app, bots, almo. Nearly three quarters of teens said they’ve tried it ’cause they’re curious, but half of them say they use it regularly.

[00:26:10] Sandie Morgan: Wow.

[00:26:11] Clayton Cranford: a third say they use it for having quote unquote important conversations.

[00:26:16] So it’s not fringe. There’s not a few kids trying it. A lot of kids are using it and it’s kind of flying under the radar. Parents need to understand that this is not healthy for their kid. We really should be pressuring our legislature to pass laws to say there needs to be age verification on this. You should be, I think, an adult.

[00:26:37] I think you should be at least 18. To use these apps, where you’re mimicking a kind of a parasocial kind of relationship with this app. And at the very least there should be some transparency about what are the, what are the safeguards. If you’re talking about self-harm, like what does the app do with that?

[00:26:56] where’s kind of the emergency breaks on, on this technology? and right now there are none.

[00:27:00] Sandie Morgan: Wow.

[00:27:01] Clayton Cranford: So it’s really up to parents to understand what’s going on and make a decision and change in your own home about what your child is using. Unfortunately, parents just don’t know what’s going on and. You know, I, I was at a a a A rather large school, a high school last night up in Los Angeles speaking to parents. I think there’s like 2200 students at this school. And they opened it up not just to the high school, but to their feeder K through eight school. I had like 10 parents show up.

[00:27:35] Sandie Morgan: Oh wow. See, that makes me crazy. And that’s another episode. We’re gonna have to have that conversation where. Where are the parents when we offer the training? and Ensure Justice is coming up March 6th, 2026. You’ve been an Ensure Justice speaker. Our safe community, safe kids, peer educators are going into the high schools and the middle schools, and when we host opportunities for parents, we have the same thing.

[00:28:11] 10. 12 people show up, so that’s

[00:28:14] Clayton Cranford: And it’s the same 10 or 12 that go to everything.

[00:28:16] Sandie Morgan: Yeah, that’s

[00:28:17] right. They’re not, yeah.

[00:28:18] Clayton Cranford: that are the most engaged.

[00:28:19] Sandie Morgan: Yeah, it’s the president of the PTA. No.

[00:28:23] Oh, Clay, we could talk for hours. We agree on how significant this moment is for our schools, for our parents, for our community to intervene because our kids, their brains are developing and they need help.

[00:28:43] They cannot manage this on their own.

[00:28:48] So what I’d like to do right now is for you to tell us how to access your book and your website as we sign off.

[00:28:59] Clayton Cranford: Yeah, so, you can find my book actually I have two books. I have Parenting The Digital World and its fourth edition just published. And I have another book called Screen Time Standoff.:Negotiation Skills to Unplug your Kid. ’cause one of the other things I did for the sheriff’s department, I was a crisis negotiator.

[00:29:15] Sandie Morgan: Oh,

[00:29:16] Clayton Cranford: turns out that the same, the same communication negotiation skills that we use to get somebody that’s barricaded inside of a building to come out and surrender to the police. Not too different than getting your kid to put down their phone. So, I

[00:29:31] Sandie Morgan: oh, we have to have that conversation.

[00:29:33] Yeah, we’ll do that another time.

[00:29:35] Clayton Cranford: it’s, it’s, a, it’s techniques that are not intuitive and, when I learned to be a negotiator, it changed actually everything for me.

[00:29:44] How I talk to my kids, how I talk to my wife. Everybody. and I share those techniques with you in that book so that you can have a really productive conversation with your child about their healthy screen time or unhealthy screen time parenting, digital, all these are available on my website at cybersafetycop.com.

[00:30:01] Well, We will put links to those resources, and we are grateful that you’re right here in our backyard in Orange County, and we’ll be calling you again because I wanna have a conversation about negotiation. Thank you so much, clay, for joining us today.

[00:30:21] Thank you, Sandie.

[00:30:23] Sandie Morgan: Thanks Clayton, for that powerful reminder. Our kids need to hear us say directly, if this happens, it’s going to be okay, and they need a plan for who to tell and how to get help. Listeners, if you loved this conversation, make sure you check out our website at endinghumantrafficking.org.

[00:30:48] You’ll find tons of in-depth show notes and more resources. If you’d like to help us grow the podcast, start by sharing this episode with someone and connecting with us on Facebook. Instagram or LinkedIn. And as always, thank you for listening.

View Details

Dr. Douglas Gilmer joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as they explore how 30 years of carrying the memory of arresting a child who needed help, not handcuffs, drove his commitment to building true collaboration in anti-trafficking work.

https://youtu.be/rAcXKRUkS68

Dr. Douglas GilmerDr. Douglas Gilmer is a 35-year law enforcement veteran and proud military veteran who retired from the Department of Homeland Security and Homeland Security Investigations in August 2024 after 25 years of federal service. In his final role, he served as Senior Law Enforcement Advisor at the DHS Center for Countering Human Trafficking in Washington, DC. His journey in this field began in 1993 when, as a Charlotte police officer, he encountered a 14-year-old girl being sold for sex. Throughout his federal career, Doug worked and supervised numerous human trafficking cases involving both sex and labor trafficking, domestic and international victims, and adults and minors. He also served as Chief of the Human Rights Violators and War Crimes Center. After retiring, Doug founded Resolved Strategies LLC, a global justice solutions group dedicated to building collaborations and developing solutions to counter human trafficking. He holds a PhD in Organizational Leadership, with research focused on multidisciplinary collaboration in anti-trafficking work. In January 2025, Doug received the William Wilberforce Lifetime Achievement Award.

Key Points* Dr. Gilmer’s research on multidisciplinary teams revealed that the MDT construct is being widely adopted because the old ways of responding to trafficking simply didn’t work, and both law enforcement and service providers report more positive attitudes toward each other than commonly assumed. * Many social workers are taught in school and by veteran colleagues not to trust law enforcement, creating initial skepticism that dissolves once they experience collaborative work and realize officers genuinely care about victims and wouldn’t stay in this demanding field otherwise. * The distinction between cooperation and collaboration is critical: cooperation involves helping someone achieve their goal with selfish motivation (“I” or “me”), while true collaboration means working together toward shared goals where your mission becomes mine and mine becomes yours (“we”). * Law enforcement agencies are shifting their metrics of success, with HSI agents now receiving the same recognition for identifying and recovering a victim as they do for making an arrest, reflecting a genuinely victim-centered approach. * Human trafficking should be approached as a “crime of crimes” with multiple prosecution pathways including money laundering, child sexual abuse material, and other charges that can achieve justice while protecting victims from the retraumatization of testifying. * After 30 years of carrying guilt over arresting a 14-year-old trafficking victim in 1993, Dr. Gilmer found closure when a survivor told him at a conference: “You have to learn to forgive yourself for the things you did before you knew better.” * The current funding and grant process for anti-trafficking work fosters competition between organizations rather than collaboration, creating a system where groups work against each other instead of for each other despite shared goals. * Years later, a 16-year-old victim told Dr. Gilmer that after being trafficked since age 13, his response was “the first time law enforcement has ever tried to help me,” illustrating how far the field has progressed in adopting trauma-informed, victim-centered approaches.

Resources* Resolve Strategies

Transcript[00:00:00] Douglas Gilmer: I can remember handcuffing her, putting her in the back of my patrol car, thinking to myself, if this is the best we can do, why are we doing this?

[00:00:15] Sandie Morgan: Our guest today was driven by 30 years of carrying the memory of arresting a child who needed help, not handcuffs. I’m Dr. Sandie Morgan with Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice, and our guest today is Dr. Doug Gilmer. He’s a 35 year law enforcement veteran, recently retired from Homeland Security Investigations and now leads Resolved Strategies.

[00:00:51] His focus is on building true collaboration in anti-trafficking work. Now, here’s our conversation.

[00:01:06] Alright, Dr. Doug Gilmer, thank you so much for joining us on the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast.

[00:01:15] Douglas Gilmer: Thank you so much.

[00:01:17] Sandie Morgan: I’m excited because when I first met you, you were in HSI, but you wanted to have side conversations, and we started talking about the research you wanted to do as you were pursuing your PhD. And so let’s start there. Why did you wanna interview me?

[00:01:41] Douglas Gilmer: Well, I had, I had long been a fan

[00:01:47] Sandie Morgan: Okay. I can have fans.

[00:01:50] Douglas Gilmer: of Dr. Morgan and was very aware of the work that you had done, and I knew that collaboration was very important to you. It was, it was evident in your work and it was evident in the work that the task force did, you know, that you helped to lead. And so you were, you were really kind of a natural fit for this project. I figured if, considering your experience and really your tenure in this field, I just knew that you would be a great, a great resource and really an expert.

[00:02:25] Sandie Morgan: I’m gonna borrow that language instead of presenting myself as old an old timer in this field. I now have tenure in this field. That’s much better. So just really quickly, the highlights of your findings in that research. Can you give us a synopsis?

[00:02:47] Douglas Gilmer: Yeah, so really the research focused, it was qualitative research, focused on the outcomes of multidisciplinary collaboration between law enforcement and service providers encountering human trafficking. What we learned through the research is that the multidisciplinary team construct, the MDT construct, works, that people were adopting the MDT construct because the old way of doing things didn’t work, and it was proving to be more effective. We learned that contrary to what we sometimes hear, law enforcement generally has a very positive attitude towards service providers, and that service providers actually have a positive attitude or a positive opinion of law enforcement.

[00:03:42] Sandie Morgan: Well hold up there because I wanna know why the myths still exists, that they’re opposing forces sometimes.

[00:03:53] Douglas Gilmer: Well, I think law enforcement comes from a slightly different mindset. We’re very skeptical

[00:04:02] Sandie Morgan: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:02] Douglas Gilmer: early on until we get to know somebody, until we learn to trust people. And then there was a theme that developed when talking to service providers, especially those who had degrees in social work that were, you know, licensed clinical social work workers, LMSW, that kind of thing. And what they shared was that they were really kind of taught from the beginning not to trust law enforcement when they were in school. They were told, don’t trust law enforcement. You can’t trust law enforcement. They don’t care about you. They don’t care about your clients. All they care about is making a case. And then when they got out and they went to work and they were being trained, the veterans were telling them, you can’t trust law enforcement. Don’t trust law enforcement. They don’t care about you. They don’t care about your clients. They only care about making a case. So they said, we went into this with perceptions based upon what we had been taught and what we had been told we couldn’t trust law enforcement. And they said, but you know, once we, so we were very skeptical when we became part of this MDT or this collaboration. But what we actually found was that law enforcement really did care

[00:05:27] Sandie Morgan: Hmm.

[00:05:27] Douglas Gilmer: that they wouldn’t be there doing this work if they didn’t care. You typically don’t choose this line of work. This line of work sometimes I think chooses you. It’s a passion, it’s a calling

[00:05:38] Sandie Morgan: Yeah.

[00:05:39] Douglas Gilmer: right? And so the people that are there and the people that stick with it, I think are truly committed.

[00:05:47] Sandie Morgan: That really reflects my experience because when I first started working with law enforcement at the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force, my boss was Derek Marsh. And as the law enforcement co-chair of our task force, he trained me. And the words you used, from the get go trust was a big part of how he trained me. He made sure that I understood his job was to make sure everybody at the scene was safe. And I knew it was dangerous. I knew the traffickers had guns. I knew that I did not have the situational awareness to manage that. Now, I was a nurse. I still am a nurse, and I knew how to provide victim care, and he trusted my expertise. And so we developed a very strong collaboration. So I think trust is definitely part of that, and we are erasing that myth and finding out that we have common goals that are survivor-centered and justice focused. So let’s talk a little bit more about how your career was shaped by encountering human trafficking. I always remember my first case, we didn’t even have the language of human trafficking. I admitted a 14-year-old boy at two o’clock in the morning and his family members had been selling him. My brain could not wrap itself around that. What was your moment of clarity? And maybe we can use your word calling.

[00:07:54] Douglas Gilmer: I think for me it began there, there were a couple of events. The first one was in 1993. And so this was before we had the TVPA, before we had really modern human trafficking legislation. This was before really we had CACs across the country.

[00:08:19] Sandie Morgan: Define C. A. C for my listeners.

[00:08:22] Douglas Gilmer: Child advocacy center.

[00:08:24] Sandie Morgan: Okay.

[00:08:24] Douglas Gilmer: And I encountered a 14-year-old girl on a street in Charlotte, North Carolina who had propositioned an undercover vice detective

[00:08:41] Sandie Morgan: Hmm.

[00:08:42] Douglas Gilmer: and I was there to support their operation. And this is actually a very difficult story for me to tell. I had to arrest that 14-year-old girl and charge her with prostitution, and I can remember handcuffing her, putting her in the back of my patrol car, thinking to myself, if this is the best we can do, why are we doing this? And to be honest, Dr. Morgan, I have dealt with so much guilt and shame since 1993 over that incident. But you know, I did what I was told to do. I did what the law told me to do. I did what I knew to do in 1993. And actually it wasn’t until just recently, a few months ago, I actually, I had to tell this story in front of a room of a couple of hundred survivors and it was very, very difficult for me to tell this story. And I had no idea what the reaction was gonna be. But afterwards, someone came up to me and gave me a hug and said, it’s okay. You have to learn to forgive yourself for the things you did before you knew better. And that was a, that was kind of like a big closing chapter for me in that story. But then even more recently, you know, back, I guess about eight years ago now, there was another girl who was 16, who had been trafficked. Just a horrible, a horrible story. The things that had happened to her. And I just remember at the end of that, end of that evening, you know, getting her to a safe space, really looking out for her needs. And as I was getting ready to leave, she turned to me and she said, Mr. Doug. And I said yes, and she said, I want you to know that this has been happening to me since I was 13 years old, and this is the first time law enforcement has ever tried to help me.

[00:11:44] Sandie Morgan: It’s a new day and what that survivor advocate said to you. Until you knew better. I think that until you knew better is now in the field of law enforcement. And that’s a great segue for us to talk about your new organization. What’s the name of it?

[00:12:12] Douglas Gilmer: Resolved Strategies

[00:12:13] Sandie Morgan: Oh, it’s, it’s on your shirt. I love that we’re doing this video, Resolved Strategies. So tell us how that is going to change the landscape.

[00:12:25] Douglas Gilmer: So, you know, the term, I think we all pretty much know what strategies are, but the term resolved according to the dictionary means to be firmly determined to do something.

[00:12:36] Sandie Morgan: Hmm.

[00:12:37] Douglas Gilmer: That’s the tech, that’s,

[00:12:38] Sandie Morgan: My mother said that was stubborn.

[00:12:41] Douglas Gilmer: It could be that too. And but what I have found now over 30 years in this field is that there are a lot of people, there are a lot of organizations, there are a lot of agencies that all say, we are firmly determined to do something about this issue, but they don’t know what they’re doing. And when I talk to some of these organizations, sometimes they can’t even tell you why. They can, they can tell you big picture. They can say, well, we are, we are determined to end the scourge of human trafficking globally. And my answer is generally great. So is everybody,

[00:13:34] Sandie Morgan: Me too.

[00:13:35] Douglas Gilmer: Why are you doing this?

[00:13:36] Yeah, right. Why are, but why are you doing this? And they can’t identify a mission. They can’t identify their purpose. They can’t identify their core values as an organization. And a lot of them don’t understand how to truly collaborate. And if you can’t do those things, if you can’t, if you can’t identify who you are, why you’re doing what you’re doing, what those things are that mean most to you and you can’t effectively work with other people, collaborate, not cooperate, collaborate with other people. The best you’re going to do is move in circles. You’re never gonna, you’re never gonna move forward. You’re gonna be like a ship without a rudder, or a rudder stuck in one direction, and you’re just gonna keep going around and around. And I don’t, I don’t want that, I want organizations to succeed in what they’re doing.

[00:14:27] Sandie Morgan: Help us understand why you’re delineating between cooperation and collaboration.

[00:14:36] Douglas Gilmer: So cooperation at its core has a selfish motivation, not necessarily selfish in a negative term, right? The example I often use, if my cows get out of my fence on my farm and I call down the road to my neighbor who doesn’t own my cows, but I say, Hey, can you come down here and help me get my cows back in the fence? That’s cooperation. He’s coming to help me achieve my goal or my purpose, which is getting my cows in the fence. Right? He doesn’t have a stake in my cows, but I do. And so there’s kind of a selfish motivation that goes along with cooperation. When I ask, when we talk about cooperation, we’re really talking about I or me. Collaboration on the other hand is about we. It’s about working with others to achieve a shared goal or shared purpose where your goals become my goals and my goals become your goals, or working together in shared purpose.

[00:15:48] Sandie Morgan: I like that. Okay, so resolved strategies, we’re determined and collaboration is a key piece of the strategy. What kind of reach do you have with Resolved Strategies?

[00:16:08] Douglas Gilmer: Well, define reach.

[00:16:10] Sandie Morgan: Well, I just, I’m like kind of inching towards the international aspect of your approach because one of the problems that I’ve identified is when, for instance, I think in one report early on when I was task force administrator, we identified victims from 29 countries in one county. So having cultural knowledge, cultural humility, linguistic resources, that international component, we have jurisdictional boundaries. The traffickers do not.

[00:16:56] Douglas Gilmer: Correct.

[00:16:57] Sandie Morgan: So how are we building international collaboration?

[00:17:04] Douglas Gilmer: So I think well, and that’s, that’s an important aspect of working collaboratively and working in an MDT environment because you bring that cultural relevancy, you know, into that environment, hopefully, you’re, you know, you’re doing that. Granted most of my work, not all of it, but most of my work is domestic, you know, working, you know, working here in the United States. But I know we are, you know, just putting my DHS hat back on my HSI hat and having retired out of the center for countering human trafficking in DC, I know that we have been pushing collaboration at the international level as well, and doing vast amounts of training overseas to train our foreign partners. And also working, you know, because HSI has 80 plus international offices around the world, and so, you know, trying to get, you know, those offices on board with their foreign partners as well, you know, to work collaboratively on these cases that might involve, you know, international, you know, sex trafficking, labor trafficking, and that kind of thing. And really continuing to push, you know, being victim centered and trauma informed, which is a policy of HSI.

[00:18:42] Sandie Morgan: Well, and it’s, that policy comes with language that helps us understand, that helps us understand our common goals. And in my experience with law enforcement training overseas, I think we need to figure out how to adjust how we label it, because we don’t want to come across as, oh, we know how to do this, and we’re gonna teach you

[00:19:12] What I’ve discovered in my international work with law enforcement that if we want to be better collaborators, we have to figure out how to have common language. So that takes a two-way street.

[00:19:31] So they’re training us on their language, they may, they won’t call it necessarily human trafficking. They may call it THB, trafficking of a human being. Depends on what country you’re in. And when we’re talking about victim centered, it may sound differently in a different context. So our collaboration in convening a training may actually be a cultural exchange of one agency with another, so that we can communicate well and understand each other for better collaboration.

[00:20:19] Douglas Gilmer: Absolutely, and I think that would benefit everybody if we did maybe more cultural exchange. So for instance, I always thought it would’ve been really cool to go spend a month over in the UK for instance, working with the Met Police in London or, you know, Scotland or somewhere working with authorities there investigating human trafficking because not only their laws are different, but their authorities are also different. So there are things that we are allowed to do in the United States that they’re not allowed to do there, vice versa. And I think that, I think that you can learn something, you know, by working in different cultures and different areas where they have different laws. Because I think it really kind of forces you to come back and think outside the box.

[00:21:27] Sandie Morgan: Hmm. Oh, that’s helpful. So when I was prepping for this interview, I looked at the title of your workshop that you did at the Attorney General’s Conference in Arlington, Virginia recently, and the title of the workshop really inspired my conversation with you today, and I’m gonna read it here. Your workshop was titled Shared Mission,

[00:21:58] Shared Measures, Collaborating for Survivor Stability, Accountability, and Dignity. So the part that caught my attention was shared measures. One of the things people have said to me with my fascination with collaboration is how do you measure collaboration? And I’ve probably done a podcast on that, so I’m not gonna use your time, but I want to know how you see shared measures and their role in the trust building we started off this conversation with.

[00:22:40] Douglas Gilmer: Yeah, I think it goes back to, you know, when you’re truly collaborating, your goals become my goals and my goals become your goals. We may have different objectives. We may have different, different roles within that environment, within that MDT, that task force. But we’re all working toward the same, the same end goal. It was interesting in my research that when I asked about how, how do you measure success? How do you measure outcomes, law enforcement overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly said, success is measured by victim stability, which I thought, wow, that’s interesting. ‘Cause I would’ve

[00:23:39] Sandie Morgan: That sounds like the social worker.

[00:23:42] Douglas Gilmer: The social workers, although their number one answer was still victim stability. A very close second was the number of cases and prosecutions, far outseeding, exceeding the law enforcement response. So, which I thought was interesting, but it also goes back to if you’re truly collaborative and you truly have shared purpose as an organization, as a task force, then your goals become my goals and my goals become your goals. And I think we recognize that if we’re doing our job effectively as law enforcement, then we’re going to, we’re gonna help provide victim stability. If the victim services folks, the advocates, the social workers, whomever, if they’re doing their job right, and we’re truly collaborative, then it’s gonna help us ultimately make, you know, better prosecutions.

[00:24:49] Sandie Morgan: So I’m gonna kind of play devil’s advocate here. I, under the Enhanced Collaborative Model here in the US, did evaluation for three different task forces all in California. I regularly interviewed law enforcement and as I did, I tried to find the ways where our goals overlapped, and they did, and there were those

[00:25:23] who made a way forward that didn’t necessarily fit their paradigm for reporting, because if you are in the police department and you go out and you spend all these hours and then you don’t have any charges, you don’t have anything that will stick, your paperwork doesn’t support a more law enforcement heavy criminal justice

[00:25:53] output, which outputs and outcomes are different. So our outcomes can be shared. But promotions and rotations, all of this, is often based on outputs for a particular officer and I think one of the areas of weakness from a collaborative perspective is when the rest of the team doesn’t understand the requirements of being a

[00:26:29] police officer. You have to track if you’re gonna give tickets for people running stop signs or red lights. How many did you cite? And if you are picking up people who are breaking the law, and now we’re talking a lot about forced criminality in human trafficking, but now you don’t charge them.

[00:26:55] Now you get victim services. How are we going to change the way that we measure an officer’s success through output? I think that’s the next big question.

[00:27:11] Douglas Gilmer: Yeah, so I think that, I think that there is a growing shift. So for instance, within, within HSI, an agent gets essentially the same credit or the same recognition for identifying and recovering a victim and getting that victim into services as they do if they make an arrest.

[00:27:40] Sandie Morgan: Okay.

[00:27:41] Douglas Gilmer: So, and that’s part, that’s part of being of that victim-centered, trauma-informed approach. You’re not always going to make a human trafficking case. And there’s been a shift in some of the more progressive agencies around the country where they’re also starting to recognize that success just isn’t on charging human trafficking, right, or Mann Act or whatever.

[00:28:13] We’re not doing ourselves any good if we’re, if we’re disregarding the needs of the victim or the survivor and forsaking, forsaking them for the case or for the purpose of making a case. And so I think that there’s a little bit of a, there’s a little bit of a growing shift. It’s also why I’ve always been very passionate about teaching law enforcement around the country that human trafficking is a crime of crimes. It’s, it could be in theory, it’s possible, it could be a single scheme crime, but it never is. Right. If,

[00:28:52] Sandie Morgan: Yeah.

[00:28:53] Douglas Gilmer: if typically there are going to be, there’s gonna be drugs involved, there may be guns involved, there may be child sexual abuse material involved, especially if we’re talking about minor victims. There could be money laundering charges. There could be tax charges. Inevitably, if it’s a commercial enterprise, they’re not paying, they’re not paying taxes.

[00:29:20] Douglas Gilmer: And so there are, and then of course, then there are things like the, you know, the Mann Act and use of a communication device in interstate commerce.

[00:29:30] There are all of these different ways that we can potentially prosecute a case, and still get, still get an outcome, in which we, maybe we don’t have to put that victim on the stand. That survivor maybe, maybe they’re just not healthy enough yet. Maybe they’re not in the right place and we don’t want to, we don’t want to put them up there and risk retraumatization.

[00:29:58] Sandie Morgan: Yeah, that’s right.

[00:30:00] Douglas Gilmer: But we can make a money laundering case. We can make a CSAM case. Because, you know, it’s a, it’s a minor victim and he had, you know, 30 images and, you know, 10 videos that he was using to post on sites. And now suddenly just based on that, we have a, we have a life sentence.

[00:30:20] Sandie Morgan: Wow.

[00:30:21] Douglas Gilmer: I think that there are, there are other ways that we can, we can show outcomes, you

[00:30:31] Sandie Morgan: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:31] Douglas Gilmer: you know, for these cases.

[00:30:33] Sandie Morgan: Doug, 30 years. Wow. So what gives you hope for the next 10?

[00:30:41] Douglas Gilmer: I think the fact that there is, there is growing interest. I mean, there was a, there was a time where law enforcement didn’t want to do this work. We just didn’t, or we did it poorly. We weren’t working human trafficking. We were just working prostitution. And I think that there’s a, there’s a growing movement nationwide. I think when you look at law enforcement agencies, especially larger departments nationwide, medium sized departments that have the resources, they’re dedicating, you know, human trafficking units or they’re dedicating folks to task forces. So I think, I think that’s good. I think that there, there’s a growing amount of training across sectors, to include, you know, victim advocates, and especially healthcare, right? I mean, that’s a, there’s a huge need in healthcare for, you know, for better training and recognition, and we’re starting to see that. So I think the fact that we’re seeing a growing, a growing interest gives me hope. What gives me pause is the fact that there are so many people out there trying to do this work, they’re not working with one another, they’re not, they’re not truly collaborating and, you know, one of the, one of the biggest conflicts or challenges

[00:32:58] that was identified, there were two big ones that were identified in the research. One was the application of roles. So people knowing their job, you know, law enforcement doing what they do and service providers doing what they do and service providers not encroaching into the lane of law enforcement and vice versa. But the other big challenge was funding.

[00:32:58] Sandie Morgan: Yeah.

[00:32:59] Douglas Gilmer: It wasn’t, it, it wasn’t so much that we don’t have funding. People said, we’re, we’re gonna find a way. I mean, even if our bank balance is zero, we’re gonna call around, we’re gonna dip into our personal saving, we’re gonna do what we have to do to help a victim. But it’s, it’s the grant process. It’s the funding process itself. We, we have created an environment in which we’re not fostering collaboration between organizations. We’re fostering competition. And that is driving a wedge, I think, in this field because it’s become so competitive to get funding that people are working against each other instead of working for each other.

[00:33:48] Sandie Morgan: Well, now you’ve moved into a new topic that is going to have to be a follow up episode, but, wow. Yes. Collaboration gives you hope. Competition is something to pause and consider.

[00:34:08] Doug, thank you so much for being with us today.

[00:34:11] Douglas Gilmer: Oh, thank you, Dr. Morgan. It was, it’s, it’s an honor. It truly is.

[00:34:16] Sandie Morgan: All right.

[00:34:17] Thank you, Dr. Doug Gilmer.

[00:34:20] This conversation about collaboration really emphasizes our shared goals where your mission becomes mine, and mine becomes yours. It changes everything about how we work together.

[00:34:36] Listeners, if this conversation was meaningful for you, please check out our website, endinghhumantrafficking.org. There are tons of resources there. You can look at old episodes. You can share the episode with someone else. Help us grow our community. Connect on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn.

[00:35:03] Thanks for listening.

View Details

Carissa Phelps joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as they discuss an unprecedented opportunity for trafficking survivors to access $215 million in remission funds from the Backpage settlement, with a critical February 2026 deadline that could finally put survivors ahead of their traffickers for the first time in movement history.

Carissa PhelpsCarissa Phelps is a licensed attorney, author, and survivor advocate who founded Runaway Girl, Inc., a social purpose corporation providing survivor-led experiential trainings nationwide. She earned both a Juris Doctor and MBA from UCLA in 2007 and holds a B.A. in Mathematics from California State University, Fresno. As a pioneer in survivor-led advocacy, Carissa has spent nearly two decades empowering communities and amplifying survivor voices through innovative strategies. She is the author of the acclaimed memoir “Runaway Girl: Escaping Life on the Streets, One Helping Hand at a Time” and co-producer of the award-winning documentary “Carissa,” both powerful tools used worldwide for education and training on child exploitation and trafficking.

Key Points* The Backpage remission fund represents $215 million available to trafficking survivors who were exploited on Backpage.com (2004-2018) and CityXGuide.com (2018-2020), marking the largest victim compensation fund in trafficking history. * Unlike previous restitution processes that required court appearances, this remission process uses a third-party administrator, removing the traumatic requirement for survivors to face their traffickers in court. * The February 2, 2026 deadline creates urgency for outreach, as many survivors remain unaware of this opportunity and the application process requires documentation of trafficking and economic losses. * Survivors First community was formed as a working group under Love Never Fails Us to conduct weekly webinars, provide step-by-step guidance, and connect survivors with pro bono legal assistance and medical providers. * The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC) has partnered with over 15 major law firms to provide free, trauma-informed legal representation to help survivors navigate the application process. * Economic losses are calculated at federal minimum wage for a 40-hour work week during the trafficking period, though survivors can request higher amounts with proper documentation of different wages or hours. * This funding opportunity represents a chance for the anti-trafficking movement to get ahead of traffickers for the first time, particularly as new technologies like Web3 and blockchain create new frontiers for both exploitation and prevention.

Resources* 19 – Runaway Girl * Survivor’s First Community * Backpage Survivor Remission Network

Transcript[00:00:00] Carissa Phelps: For the first time, for the first time in the history of this movement, we have an opportunity to get ahead of traffickers.

[00:00:08] Sandie Morgan: Right now, $215 million is waiting for trafficking survivors. This is money that most survivors don’t even know exists. The deadline is February 2nd, 2026. The legal system is finally learned from mistakes. There’s no court required here. Victims don’t have to face their traffickers to apply for this funding. It’s a pathway to justice.

[00:00:45] I am Dr. Sandie Morgan from the Global Center for Women and Justice at Vanguard University. And my guest is Carissa Phelps.

[00:00:57] She’s an attorney, a survivor advocate, founder of Runaway Girl Inc. And she is leading the charge to connect survivors with the Backpage remission fund. Let’s join our conversation.

[00:01:16]

[00:01:22] Sandie Morgan: Okay, so Carissa Phelps, welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. I have looked back at our history, and the last time you were here was 14 years ago.

[00:01:37] Carissa Phelps: Oh my goodness.

[00:01:38] Sandie Morgan: Wow. Listeners, if you wanna hear that interview, it’s number 19. So welcome Carissa.

[00:01:46] Carissa Phelps: Thank you. Thank you, Sandie. Thanks for

[00:01:48] Sandie Morgan: having me on.

[00:01:49] So what have you been doing since we talked last?

[00:01:53] Carissa Phelps: So, catching up, I guess. I mean that’s over a decade of work, but we built Runaway Girl as a flexible purpose corporation, so a social purpose corporation. We went out with full force. We had. Prop 35 in that timeframe to come out with a historic support for, more penalties for trafficking that saw increased prosecutions for sex trafficking, especially of minors.

[00:02:18] And we’ve been in a uphill battle in terms of getting survivors into leadership positions. But that’s happening now more and more. It’s expected for survivors to not just be at the table or in the room or subject of the conversation, but to be part of the conversation in developing services and reaching victims where they’re at, and survivors where they’re at.

[00:02:43] And so this has been, it’s been an exciting decade and a half.

[00:02:47] Sandie Morgan: Wow. And I just am happy to report to you that the very first human trafficking victim rescued in Orange County, Shyima Hall, who was an Egyptian child, made in an upscale neighborhood, is now serving on the Global Center for Women in Justice Advisory Board.

[00:03:11] Yeah, so we’re trying to practice what you are teaching us as a leading survivor advocate. So I got really excited a couple weeks ago when I saw your post about NCMEC remission, and when we’re talking about survivor-centered justice, why is that important? And for listeners just joining this conversation, NCMEC is the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

[00:03:45] Carissa Phelps: So I did, I posted, my friends at NCMEC National Center for Missing Exploited Children are doing something similar to what we’ll talk about with survivors first, but we are all trying to respond to this Backpage remission, which is an historic amount of funds

[00:04:01] available for survivors of trafficking that were trafficked over 20 years ago, some of them, from 2004 when Backpage was prominent, to 2018, 2004 to 2018, when backpage.com existed and served traffickers really and served buyers and.

[00:04:22] Was a means of exploiting victims, rampantly all over our country, all over the world, really all over the globe. And so there were so many victims out of that website. It was finally shut down, with the help of Maggie Krell, who was at the Attorney General’s office in California and others in US Attorney in Arizona, Kevin Rapp, and like there, there were so many people that stepped up to the plate to say this was wrong.

[00:04:46] this went even beyond maybe what Craigslist was doing in terms of, just, uh, catering to traffickers in, in what they were posting. So they were, assets were seized in that effort and those assets are now available to victims of trafficking. There was a settlement reached in 2024 with the company, and so some of the funds did go back to the company owners and so that that can be resolved in civil suits and other ways.

[00:05:15] But this 215 million has been made available in a victim restitution fund. For victims to come forward to show that they have losses, economic losses, so lost wages, lost time that they could have been working or doing something else when they were being trafficked. And also medical costs and other costs that they would’ve incurred while being trafficked.

[00:05:37] Sandie Morgan: So, Carissa, one of the things that was so inspiring when I first met you is you did a double grad program so that you have an MBA and you’re an attorney. So break this down for us. What are you talking about with remission and, asset forfeiture? Tell me about that.

[00:06:01] Carissa Phelps: So anytime somebody uses their assets to commit a crime or takes or steals things from people fraudulently, their money or their assets, that those assets could be seized and forfeited to the government.

[00:06:19] And if they’re prosecuted, criminally prosecuted, they first be seized and then they would be forfeited. So that happened. It happened with City X Guide in 2021. There was actually a restitution process for victims in 2021 and a $15 million fund, and nobody really learned about it. It was not as well advertised potentially, or people didn’t get the word out, and maybe because it wasn’t as large of a fund, but that $15 million, if it’s not accessed by victims, it doesn’t it, it didn’t disappear.

[00:06:55] Fortunately, it’s coming into this fund. But it’s now a remission process, which is different than a restitution process. A victim restitution process is sort of during the criminal trial and before sentencing, somebody could come in and put in a restitution form and say, I’m due this money because I was a victim of this crime.

[00:07:14] And the Texas, the US attorney in Texas did make that process available with the City X Guide person being prosecuted. Martono was his name. He was prosecuted. He ended up being sentenced and victims had a chance to go and to give a victim impact statement and to also apply for these funds as a restitution.

[00:07:35] But what happened is that the word probably didn’t get out wide enough. There weren’t enough. There wasn’t enough support maybe for victims to get this fund in. It’s a scary thing to go to court. And ask for anything, especially if you’ve been victimized more recently. Mm-hmm. And the victimization with that was between 2018 and 2020.

[00:07:54] And so you’re asking in 2021 really early stage people who are coming out of victimization to come and try to get funds. It wasn’t happening and it didn’t happen. So now when the back page settlement was reached in 2024 after a criminal conviction of one of the, one of the founders, one of the CEOs of, of that organization, there was this $215 million settlement.

[00:08:20] And so these funds have now been combined by the DOJ and their money laundering department to create a process that looks similar to the one in 2021. But is run by a program, called Epic. They’re epic global, so they’re the administrator. And so now we’re not going to court to get this money. We’re basically going to a middle person between the victim and survivor and the DOJ and submitting documentation that would be proof of the trafficking, that it happened during the time period, that there’s a remission time period of 2004 to 2018.

[00:08:59] 2008 for back page 2018 to 2020 for City X Guide. And so you’d have to show some sort of proof that there was some trafficking that happened during that period with those websites, sex trafficking particularly, and then also claim lost the lost wages for that time. Much like the Cal, the California has a crime victims’ compensation fund.

[00:09:25] Yeah. Claim lost wages. And it would be calculated at minimum wage, federal minimum wage at that time, unless there could be a way of showing that there was a different wage amount, unless there could be a way of showing that there were different hours worked. It would be 40 hour work week. One of the things that we’re doing, we could talk about, you know, whether there’s really truly a work week when somebody’s being trafficked, right?

[00:09:47] Yeah, yeah. Um,

[00:09:49] Sandie Morgan: over time. But

[00:09:50] Carissa Phelps: there’s, there’s this process now set up that we don’t have to go to court. We’re going to a third party administrator with documentation proving the trafficking and a lawyer doing that with a, with a survivor, with a, with a victim of, of this, which we’ll call a claimant. Now, a claimant on this form is important.

[00:10:12] I think it really is important. it’s not a complicated process where you have to peer in front of court, but it’s still a lengthy application and it requires some proof,

[00:10:21] Sandie Morgan: So, when we talk about being survivor centered justice, the first time there was restitution funding available, not many applied, and it’s a scary process.

[00:10:38] So this particular model now. Means that the survivor doesn’t have to go back to court. That’s a big deal that recognizes it’s more trauma informed. So as I look at the information on this, the deadline is coming up February, 2026. Yeah. So what are the practical steps that survivors and our communities need to take?

[00:11:08] So this doesn’t get left on the table.

[00:11:11] Carissa Phelps: Thank you so much for asking that. And February 2nd, 2026. So I’m only thinking, oh my goodness. Deadline as January. January,

[00:11:18] Sandie Morgan: okay. January is our

[00:11:19] Carissa Phelps: deadline if you really think about it. And then you have the holidays in between. So it is a very tight deadline. it’s one of my first requests.

[00:11:26] As soon as I get a meeting with the DOJ, which I anticipate we will, survivors first will be meeting with them. Is, can we get some equitable relief, some fairness here about, you know, we were looking at populations that are inaccessible. They’re in jail, they’re in hospitals, potentially they’re not, they’re incapacitated.

[00:11:43] We have deceased survivors and victims. Their families have to get a state set up to make the claim. So we do have some, some fairness here about getting an extension. We don’t anticipate it. We’re not going to plan for it. We’re gonna plan for no extension and do the best we can with every application that.

[00:12:02] In my case, I’m trying to do about 500 applications myself. I know other lawyers who have hundreds or thousands of them, so we’re anticipating, you know, tens of thousands potentially applications going in. this means that the funds that will be received per person may be pro rata down from what they’re requesting.

[00:12:25] So we’re really encouraging everybody to request the full amount that they can legitimately request because we do anticipate if we exhaust the fund, it will be, it will be pro rata down. so yes, it, it is a lot to set up, the groups that we really need to have at the table, like you mentioned, NCMEC, NCMECS, backpage remission network.org got launched.

[00:12:48] Yoda Sous, who’s over there, has been in this fight for a very long time, and I’m very happy that she’s at the table doing this. I hope you have her on a, as a guest as well, because

[00:12:57] Sandie Morgan: I’ll make a note for sure. About

[00:12:58] Carissa Phelps: enough, right? Mm-hmm. Um, me and Melissa Snow and others at at NCMEC are making this a priority.

[00:13:04] They already work with law firms, so they have a, you know, over a dozen law firms who have committed pro bono to assist in this application process. To assist survivors and just very, very narrowly assist with the application process. And then also they have connection and relationship with people they trust in the therapy field, in the medical field.

[00:13:29] And so they’re, they’re connecting those two groups up to help streamline the process of getting the applications done. Survivors First is doing it a little bit differently. And we’re doing it differently because we wanna see when survivors come in the door that they have the option to maybe even start their services.

[00:13:47] Sandie Morgan: Let’s stop for a second here. Yeah. And tell me what is Survivors first and what is the agenda there?

[00:13:56] Carissa Phelps: Yeah. So Survivors First is it. It is a working group that was formed other, it’s under Love Never Fails us. Love Never Fails Us, is a nonprofit. That helps to empower survivor voice.

[00:14:10] So Vanessa Russell, who founded Love Never Fails us reached out to me when she heard of the deadline. I was actually on an international flight when it came out on July 31st. And she reached out to me and I just immediately went into action. I had a, me a meeting with 25 of very close friends, allies in the survivor space, um, attorneys, doctors, people who would talk to me right away. Um, from Spain

[00:14:34] I had this meeting. I said, let’s, we have, we have to get this done. And so we began meeting, we planned a weekly webinar where every week, Wednesday at 1:00 PM PST, we’re getting people on air talking about. what’s going on with the application process? What’s going on with the remission process, how we can give, um, sort of step-by-step guide to victims and survivors and those who are supporting them, because not every claimant is gonna have an attorney.

[00:15:02] So we know that human trafficking advocates are also gonna be helping walk survivors through this form, that some people will not have legal assistance, even though there is the pro bono legal assistance through NCMEC. We hope that everyone has legal assistance, but we don’t think everyone will end up with legal assistance.

[00:15:20] So to give people sort of a guide of what to expect, even what if, what to expect even before they go and see a lawyer, if they’d like to think it through. Some people are not sure if they want to do this right? They want more information first. So we’re speaking to survivors, we’re speaking to experts.

[00:15:35] We’re speaking to the providers to try to get together and share resources. And as quickly as possible, cut through the red tape and really empower all the allies and attorneys and medical providers who are out there so that we have strong claims built for this, for the claimants, for those survivors.

[00:15:56] Sandie Morgan: So time is of the essence. Time, right? Time is of the essence. So if you’re listening to this conversation with Carissa, you need to share this podcast with your survivor network. Even with your anti-trafficking network and engage more survivors, because there are people that we haven’t been able to reach with this message.

[00:16:23] And the internet is a common denominator for many of us. Let’s use it for good here.

[00:16:31] Carissa Phelps: Yes. And that is one of our key reasons for forming, was just raising the awareness, raising the awareness. Hosting these weekly talks with survivors and then also with the providers, all about getting the information out there, lowering the barriers that exist.

[00:16:46] Because some people don’t have computers. They don’t have the ability even to apply. It’s a difficult application. You can’t do it on your phone in one sitting. I’m not saying don’t do that. If that’s your only way to do it and get it done, then get it done, get it done by the deadline for certain. but I just, I really, I believe that there’s, there’s this

[00:17:05] gap in understanding that this is for you. A lot of victims will think, well, I didn’t have a prosecution. I didn’t testify against the trafficker When the prosecutor asked me to, maybe I don’t have a claim. No, you still have a claim. It doesn’t mean you don’t have a claim. You can still have a claim, a valid claim if you were trafficked on this site, didn’t have to be proven in court.

[00:17:27] It didn’t have to be something that you had to cooperate with law enforcement. This is not court. You’re not going to court. I do suggest trying to get attorney and attorney representation. There are some attorneys that are signing up cases for a contingency fee and even those attorneys we’re working with them.

[00:17:43] I understand that model. I work under that model. So we’re working with them to help try to lower the costs that would go to survivors. It would come out of their portion. So we wanna make sure providers are available for those survivors through grant funds, through other means to come up with help for those applications to make them the strongest that they can be without incurring costs to a survivor.

[00:18:06] Sandie Morgan: So how do people contact Survivors First?

[00:18:11] Carissa Phelps: So SurvivorsFirst.community is our website. We’re also on Love Never fails.com. Love never fails us.com. Under their events tab, we have a webinar link there. at Survivors First dot Community, you’ll find information about the remission process, our webinar links and our resource form so that providers can sign up and share their information, tell us how they wanna be involved, tell us where they wanna be involved.

[00:18:40] Tell us their background and experience. We are asking that people have at least one year, 12 months of experience when they sign up. if they’re a provider with something that is trafficking directly related to trafficking, human trafficking and training in that area. We do have some time to train people and some experts who are out there will support.

[00:19:00] Specialists because we do need some specialists at times that maybe don’t have training in trafficking might be a dental issue, it might be an, an ocular or ophthalmology issue, could be a skin or dermatology issue. And we, and we, we need those experts too. Those people. To help with treatment plans, but we’d want them working alongside of somebody who has that experience.

[00:19:21] Sandie Morgan: So getting this message out is important not just to the survivors, but also to our legal community. Yes. And I started thinking when you first started talking about all the survivors in my world. And how I’m going to share this with them. And now where I am starting to make my next list is all the attorneys and judges and, advocates in the legal system that will be critical for us to meet that 2nd of February deadline.

[00:19:56] I’m with you. I’m gonna just say January 31st. Yeah,

[00:20:00] Carissa Phelps: yeah,

[00:20:00] We will also have a toolkit we’re building for survivors. So I’m working alongside Felicia Rosario, and maybe you have us both on it sometime, but, or she’s. She’s a medically trained, doctor, so she’s medically trained.

[00:20:12] She has a md, she’s Dr. Rosario. She’s amazing, and she’s not able to issue the treatment plans necessarily, but she’ll work right alongside of doctors and helping them understand medical codes and right alongside survivors to help them understand how to care for themselves, what to ask for, how to advocate to get their treatment that they need, and they deserve.

[00:20:33] A lot of survivors don’t, don’t necessarily understand the connection between something like an autoimmune disorder later in life and the stress that they, that they had, strangulation has come up. Things that dental issues have come up that could have been caused by trafficking or excessive drug use that was, that was forced upon them during the trafficking.

[00:20:53] So all these things are things that we can address. tattoo removal, those types of. Scars, tattoos, skin infections, things like that, that would require dermatology. There’s, a

[00:21:04] wonderful app that I’ll share with you as one of the links that, Dr. Shadi Kourosh has come up with that links providers who have training and trafficking and also skin related trafficking issues that are available because of her work at Harvard.

[00:21:19] So there’s there. These resources are out there. That’s the exciting thing, Sandy, I don’t think 14 years ago we could have said this. No, we would’ve been scrambling in the dark for something, and I know these resources are out there. I hope that these listeners, the listeners that you have that are so faithful, the listeners that you have.

[00:21:34] Will sign up on the form both on Backpage, remission network.org, and then also with Survivors First Community. This is a global message, but we really are trying to activate people locally because we know survivors if they hear this message in their own community. That it’ll be more real. We want this to be real.

[00:21:54] We want it not just this to be a headline in the news they see, but something that is real and actionable.

[00:21:59] Sandie Morgan: I am so excited that as the ending human trafficking podcast community, we get to be front and center to watch. As you lead this survivor-centered initiative, um, what I’d really also like to ask, just because I know we’re gonna have more conversations, but as we lead up to that after February 2nd, what are you looking for in initiatives like Survivor First and shaping the future of our anti-trafficking efforts?

[00:22:39] Carissa Phelps: Well, you can, I mean, you can just give me chills right now because I mean the work that we need to do to get ahead of traffickers, like for the first time, for the first time in the history of this movement, we have an opportunity to get ahead of traffickers. If we don’t take it, it is on us. So Web3 is here, Web3 is coming.

[00:23:00] It’s here. Blockchain. All this new technology is available, and it is a new frontier, a new world that if we don’t learn and become a part of, then we will have handed it over to traffickers. Once again, like we did with Web 2.0, we will have handed it over and we cannot do that. We can’t stand by while it’s done.

[00:23:21] We cannot allow it to happen. We need to get educated and out in front of it. That doesn’t mean by shutting down innovation, that means by being the greatest innovators. That means by being the best innovators, let’s not wait. For people to harm our children before we create tools like Bark or tools that help to regulate their use online, their usage online, and who accesses them, right?

[00:23:42] Let’s do this ahead of time. So that’s what I’m calling out to everybody, and that will be my sort of battle cry as I go forward after February 2nd.

[00:23:51] Sandie Morgan: Oh my goodness. I am so inspired. I can’t wait to join your team. Before I sign off, I want you to tell me about the books in the background of your screen.

[00:24:02] Carissa Phelps: Okay. So, um, in human trafficking, so I worked some of that time during our, during from 2019, I filed my first case against, 15 defendants, a whole host of hotels, motels, and then also, Craigslist. So my client was this amazing, very brave client who had been trafficked as a minor, and she stood up and to, to those individuals, to those hotels, and to the.

[00:24:30] One of them being Motel six, G six, one of them being, Craigslist. And she, we fought, we fought all the way to the Ninth Circuit. And unfortunately, I’ll tell you my new book that I’m working on that’s gonna take up the next base over here is gonna be called Bad Law because I don’t think that the ninth Circuit got it right when they reviewed our case.

[00:24:49] Um, there are other cases who were argued alongside of me that continue to fight. My client was, was sort of done and reached a, a resolution, that was agreeable for both parties and so I was just so proud of her for fighting. I worked for, um. Mike Papantonio and Levin Papantonio Rafferty when I was doing that, and he was writing his book in human trafficking at that time and became a huge ally and friend to the world of, of anti-trafficking.

[00:25:15] He supported my work in filing multiple lawsuits, creating a whole department at Levin Papantonio Rafferty, and at his conference or their conference, really Mass Torts Made Perfect. That is in Las Vegas that reaches so many attorneys, thousands of attorneys around the world. Really. And so this has been, a fight that Levin Papantonio has been in, and I’m in their studio and this is his book.

[00:25:38] Oh. So that’s what’s, what’s Behind Me. Oh, I love that. And then Michael Book, runaway Girl. And, one of my colleagues from here, from the office had a copy and brought it in. So my book that, I am so proud of, but came out in 2012, so not, not long after we had met, it was coming out. it’s due for not just an update, but also, like I said, I have a whole nother book, not just another chapter that I’ve lived in the last decade and a half.

[00:26:02] So that will be the next book that will be, that’ll be the next book that I come out with, and I’m excited about.

[00:26:08] Sandie Morgan: Carissa, you are an inspiring survivor leader, and I wanna be an ally and bring a community of allies to sign on. Go to your website. We’ll put all the links in our show notes for everybody.

[00:26:27] Thank you so much for being with me today. Thank you.

[00:26:30] Carissa Phelps: Thank you. Thank you.

[00:26:32] Speaker 6: Thank you to Carissa Phelps. This episode, this conversation really showed survivor-centered justice and it’s happening right now. We can’t let that $215 million sit there unclaimed share this episode, the deadline. February 2nd, 2026. This is a wake up call for a movement beyond the deadline. How are we going to promote survivor centered justice?

[00:27:07] If this is your first episode of the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, go to our website, endinghumantrafficking.org. You’ll find show notes, tons of resources

[00:27:22] and of course you can listen to past episodes, for instance, Carissa Phelps was on the podcast in our first year, episode number 19, and if you’d like to help us grow the podcast, please connect on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn.

[00:27:44] Thank you for listening.

[00:27:46]

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Erin West joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as they uncover why that random text asking “Can you come for ribs?” might be the opening move in a $5 billion crime operation targeting vulnerable people through sophisticated romance and investment scams known as pig butchering.

Erin WestErin West is a globally recognized expert in transnational organized crime and the founder and president of Operation Shamrock, a nonprofit uniting law enforcement, industry, and everyday citizens to disrupt pig butchering scams—the world’s fastest-growing form of transnational organized crime. After 26 years as a prosecutor, including eight years on the REACT High-Tech Task Force where she became known for her relentless pursuit of cryptocurrency-enabled criminals, Erin retired to launch this cross-border fight to expose the scam economy and protect both victims and the trafficked workers forced to run these schemes. She is also the host of “Stolen,” a podcast that takes listeners inside the darkest corners of the scamdemic, where love is weaponized and billions are laundered. As a sought-after international speaker and educator, Erin continues to equip audiences worldwide to use their skills and platforms to fight back against these sophisticated criminal enterprises.

Key Points* Pig butchering scams are long cons that can last up to four months, involving four hours of daily texting to build the relationship victims have always wanted before stealing their life savings. * Chinese organized criminals created this crime model by repurposing casino towers in Southeast Asia during COVID, literally translating “pig butchering” as fattening up victims with love bombing before cutting their throats financially. * The scams begin with seemingly innocent outreach through wrong number texts, LinkedIn connections, or social media befriending, then quickly move to encrypted platforms like WhatsApp to conduct criminal activity without oversight. * Hundreds of thousands of people from Africa, Bangladesh, and Pakistan are being trafficked to Southeast Asia under false job promises, then forced to work 16 hours a day running these scams under threat of violence. * Victims of forced criminality face arrest and detention when compounds are raided because they’re treated as criminals rather than trafficking victims, creating a massive repatriation crisis. * The scale of this crime is unprecedented, with victims reporting losses of $4.9 billion in 2024 alone, representing a generation’s worth of stolen wealth from retirement and college savings accounts. * End-to-end encryption, while protective for legitimate users, is weaponized by criminals to conduct relationships and transactions away from law enforcement visibility. * Effective response requires unprecedented cross-sector collaboration between banking, law enforcement, cryptocurrency platforms, diplomacy, victim assistance, and NGOs working together rather than in silos.

Resources* 351 – Hidden Crimes: Fraud and its Impact on Vulnerable Communities * Operation Shamrock * Stolen Podcast

Transcript[00:00:00] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. I’m Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issue, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking.

[00:00:23] Today, we’ll discover why that random text asking “Can you come for ribs?” might be the opening move in a $5 billion crime operation

[00:00:36] I’m joined today by Erin West, founder and president of Operation Shamrock, and former prosecutor who spent 26 and a half years. Fighting high tech crimes. And now here’s our interview.

[00:00:53]

[00:00:54] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the podcast Erin West. I am so delighted to meet you.

[00:01:02] Erin West: Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. I’m delighted to be here.

[00:01:05] Sandie Morgan: It was really interesting.

[00:01:07] Debbie Deem, who was on episode 351, mentioned you and she mentioned you in her context talking about pig butchering, and she had my full attention right away. And then she talked about your nonprofit. So, at the top of this interview, I wanna frame everything with what you are doing with Operation Shamrock.

[00:01:37] Somehow my imagination took me to Ireland, so, tell us what that is.

[00:01:44] Erin West: Sure. So I was a prosecutor for 26 and a half years, and the last three years of my career I was deluged with victims of a certain type of crime known as pig butchering. It’s a long con, it is a romance slash investment scam. And what I was seeing was that we had never seen anything like this before, we’d never seen a scale like this, and ultimately, my passion for trying to do something about it made me realize that I needed to leave my career, retire from being a prosecutor and open a nonprofit.

[00:02:26] At Operation Shamrock, our mission is to educate about, mobilize against and disrupt transnational organized crime. The, the Chinese organized criminals that are, that are running this horrible crime. And so that’s what we do.

[00:02:41] Sandie Morgan: So what is a long con?

[00:02:44] Erin West: Yeah. You know, I think that, and a good example of a short con would be those calls that you get where you are led to believe that, your, your grandchild is in custody somewhere and you need to go put money in an ATM real quick. That’s a, that’s a deceptive trick.

[00:03:01] Sandie Morgan: oh, I got a text, I got a text yesterday that said, mom, I lost my phone. Text me at this number.

[00:03:12] Erin West: Yeah,

[00:03:13] Sandie Morgan: like, ah,

[00:03:15] Erin West: Ugh. That’s, and the fact that that happened to you yesterday shows how ubiquitous these crimes are. So, so when you ask about a long con, a long con is something where, oh my gosh. And I just got a text right now. That says hello. I’m Sophia from the Indeed Human Resources Team. We recently came across your outstanding resume.

[00:03:39] That’s a job scam and it’s happening. That’s, that’s how frequently this is happening. So the long con is, is when you get one of those texts that says, Hey, I’m making ribs tonight. Can you come over and you say, oh, I think you have the wrong number. And then you start a, what can be up to four months of a relationship with someone that you met in a very random way on the internet.

[00:04:03] These bad actors have tried and true techniques that they use to lure you into believing that you are in a legitimate relationship and it’s the kind of relationship that you’ve always wanted.

[00:04:16] Sandie Morgan: Hmm. So I’ve done so much work in the youth prevention field, and we always call that like the Romeo Pimp, the Romance Con, those kinds of things.

[00:04:31] And so those kids don’t have any big money. So why is this happening?

[00:04:37] Erin West: I’ll say that the enemy is so sophisticated that they are attacking every, every demographic. And so they have, we’ve recently found out that sextortion is coming out of the very same compounds that are doing these long cons, and the enemy is willing to do anything to make, to make money. So the short amount of time it takes to get some money out of, out of younger victims, they’ll do that, but they’ll invest a longer amount of time when they know that you have a retirement account or you have funded college accounts for your kids, they will know that it’s worth the amount of time to do that

[00:05:23] Sandie Morgan: Okay, so how long would a long con go? Like weeks, four months. Okay. So we’re talking regular communication.

[00:05:33] Erin West: We’re talking four hours a day of texting. We are talking, we are talking that they become the relationship that that victim has always wanted. That they are the, the happy, the happily ever after. They’re selling a dream, and it takes a minute to sell a dream like that.

[00:05:50] Sandie Morgan: Mm. So Debbie first mentioned pig butchering in our episode 351 when we were talking about online scams, particularly targeting senior citizens. And I think the stat she shared with us was $4.9 billion in 2024. Can you really break down what a pig butchering scam looks like, the steps, how do I begin to recognize when that’s what’s happening?

[00:06:27] And how did it get a name like that?

[00:06:29] Erin West: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so you’re asking all the right questions. So let, let’s start with that part first. So, I’m gonna take you back to what was happening in Southeast Asia. That’s where this is coming from, in, in COVID Times and Chinese organized criminals. And when I say that, I mean legitimate Chinese organized criminals.

[00:06:48] Members of the triad, thought it would be great to build a bunch of casinos in Cambodia and lure Chinese gamblers down there and make money from gambling. And when, COVID hit and people weren’t moving, they said, well, let’s figure out another way to fill these large buildings that we have and let’s figure out another way to make money.

[00:07:09] So they thought, Sha Zhu Pan, that is the Chinese term for it. It literally translates to pig butchering. And the idea is, let’s fill those towers with, with workers and have them fatten up the pig, build these love bomb relationships with victims, and then once the victims are in, let’s cut their throats and let’s take everything they have.

[00:07:35] Sandie Morgan: Oh my gosh. That’s brutal.

[00:07:37] Erin West: And so that’s what pig butchering really means. And it is, it is vile in so many ways. For a long time, there was a whole movement to not call it pig butchering because that was, that was cruel to victims.

[00:07:50] But I think that the reason why we need to call it pig butchering is that’s what they call it, and it gets attention and it gets attention to what is a crime, the unknown crime that is killing a whole strata of our society.

[00:08:07] And these people aren’t talking about it because they feel shame and embarrassment. So when we think about how a pig butchering scam works, it begins with an initial reach out. It could be one of those texts we’ve talked about, or it could be someone friending you on LinkedIn connecting with you and saying, I see that you’ve recently moved to Southern California.

[00:08:30] My niece is thinking of moving there. Can you tell me what a good neighborhood is for a young woman? or something like that, that gets your attention and, and feels not at all nefarious. And you, you might think, oh, I’d like to be helpful. It could be someone befriending you in your over fifties women’s travel group on Facebook, which happened to me.

[00:08:52] It could be someone on a dating app. And so what it is, is there’s this initial reach out. There’s an initial. Connection. And from there they move that connection to wherever it started, to WhatsApp or to Signal or to Telegram. Somewhere that’s end to end encrypted and over time they

[00:09:11] Sandie Morgan: Wait stop that for just a second

[00:09:12] Erin West: You stop me whenever you want.

[00:09:14] Sandie Morgan: Okay. Because I’m like listening to this as a first timer and I’m thinking, oh, wait a minute my tech guy told me, end-to-end encryption will protect me. And now you are telling me they choose end-to-end encryption. Go back.

[00:09:31] Erin West: I am so glad that you stopped me because this is important to me. I think a lot of people in this industry use a lot of buzzwords terms. They talk through stuff and, and it makes it difficult to say, wait, wait, wait. Stop. Let me, let me make sure I understand that piece. So I’m glad you stopped me. So let’s talk about end-to-end encryption.

[00:09:49] End-to-end encryption is great, if you want to keep a secret. It is great if you want to send information to someone else that you don’t want anyone looking at, and that’s what these bad guys want. They want to be able to communicate you with you in a space where there’s no one looking. So, I just saw an example on Airbnb this morning where somebody was talking on Airbnb.

[00:10:16] The guy wanted them to, to speak in WhatsApp. They went to WhatsApp and he started suggesting that they go on a date. So the, the point is WhatsApp is where things happen that people want to conceal. So it can be good for you. If you want to talk to your son and have him send you his checking account number in a, in a concealed way, it can be not good for you when you are getting lured into a fictitious relationship over a four month period.

[00:10:48] Sandie Morgan: Wow. Okay. So pick up again from the encrypted.

[00:10:54] Erin West: So then, uh, these texts come in and these texts are, always good morning. How are you? Good. Uh, have a good night. Sleep well, always, and just absolutely checking in on every aspect of your day with a genuine interest. I spoke with a victim last week who said, you know, I, lost $75,000, but I, would almost pay that for the relationship that I had.

[00:11:19] We are, yeah, I see you reacting to that because it’s, it’s a lot right.

[00:11:23] Sandie Morgan: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:25] Erin West: We are living in a society where people are so desperate for a human connection, that they’re, they’re willing to trade quite a bit for that human connection. What I’ve heard other victims say is, I never felt so heard, understood, listened to.

[00:11:41] The enemy is masterful in creating a very human connection that feels very, very real.

[00:11:50] Sandie Morgan: So, one of the things that, in my conversation with Debbie Deem and with others is the link to human trafficking is really nebulous sometimes with this, because we’re, we’re talking about some of the same fraud techniques, but then they’re not selling the person, they’re scamming the person or fraud. Ah, wait a minute, Debbie told me not to use the word scam because it’s shame-based. Yeah, right. So I’m still

[00:12:24] Erin West: We’re we’re learning

[00:12:25] We’re all learning,

[00:12:26] Sandie Morgan: but the idea of those casinos that were built also created a venue where forced criminality became an issue, and what I understand is luring. So it’s like this is a multi-level crime where they’re luring workers to come to a job where then it isn’t what they thought it would be, which is very typical in trafficking, and now they are forced to do the scams. And what does that forced criminality look like?

[00:13:10] Erin West: It is horrifying and the worst part of this entire business in that if I take you back to Chinese organized crime building, these casino towers in Cambodia COVID hits, people aren’t moving. They decide to go to pig butchering. Well, that requires a lot of human workers. And so to do that, they started flooding Meta, with advertisements for, for jobs.

[00:13:39] And at that period of time, and still today, there’s a large unemployment rate in Southeast Asia. Particularly in Africa, and we’ll get to that in a minute. But what’s happening is, they are luring people with the idea of getting a real job. And so the advertisements are very official looking.

[00:14:00] They are interviewing people, they’re making them take a typing test. They have every reason to believe that they are coming to Bangkok to have a legitimate job in a live work environment where they will be able to send money home, and the level of deception is outrageous. When you think of luring a human being to leave their home and come to

[00:14:24] a country that is foreign to them. When they arrive at the airport, they’re met, their passports are taken, their phones are taken, and they are driven hours on end. Some are put in boats and moved across rivers. They’re, they’re moved against their will and then they are put into a facility where they go through a guard gate with guards with AK 40 sevens, and now they’re told, no, you’re not here to do data entry

[00:14:49] You are here to scam your fellow humans. You are here to make people fall in love with you and then steal all of their money and you’ll be doing this 16 hours a day and if you don’t do it, we’ll beat you and we’ll make you beat your peers and we will. I mean, the level of the level of criminality involved in making people do such a horrific task is war crimes level.

[00:15:15] It’s, it’s beyond. It’s hard to stomach what I’ve heard about how they motivate people to do this to their fellow humans. It’s horrific, and the scale of it is. Unbelievable. We have never seen this level of forced criminality. And if I could go to Africa for a second, that’s where they’re really recruiting hard right now because Africans speak English.

[00:15:42] They’re recruiting hard in Kenya, in Uganda, and they, and now we’ve got a whole sociological issue when you traffic hundreds of thousands of people to a different area of the globe and, and keep them in custody and make them do this work.

[00:15:58] Sandie Morgan: So are they moving them from Africa to like Cambodia?

[00:16:02] Erin West: That’s exactly what’s happening. And so what we know is I’m in contact with a Ugandan who’s inside a, uh, in Cambodia, and he tells me the nationalities of the people around him and their Kenyans, Ugandans, their Bangladeshi, they’re Pakistanis, they’re coming from, from countries where that country is not going to stand up and fight for them.

[00:16:24] Those countries have enough on their plate without fighting to get to repatriate, people that have been stolen from them. And so it’s very intentional. It’s very, it’s very well thought out. It’s sophisticated and it’s, and most importantly it’s working and it’s working at a scale that we could not even contemplate.

[00:16:44] Sandie Morgan: Wow. Wow. Okay. So the forced criminality part, when we’re talking about human trafficking, we’ve covered that in this podcast when, particularly juveniles have been engaged in delivering drugs or recruiting for the gang that’s controlling them. And now when someone is found in a facility that is doing the the scamming.

[00:17:24] And creating this pig butchering scenario, instead of being rescued, they have been reportedly arrested. Talk about that.

[00:17:37] Erin West: So what happens is, is these victims are lured recruited into doing this dirty business. They don’t know this. They, my Ugandan colleague said that he was working for a hundred dollars a month in an internet cafe in Uganda.

[00:17:54] A fellow Ugandan came in and said, would you like to make $1,000 a month? And he his 23 years old and he thought, yeah, I think I could go abroad for six months and make more money than I’ve ever thought about. Yes, I think I would like to do that. And now he is in a compound in Cambodia, unable to get out.

[00:18:13] There’s, I’ve been trying for six weeks to figure out a way to get him out of there, and I’ve, I’ve pulled every thread I can think of, and I do not have a way to get him out of there. But when we think about what happens to them in the rare occasions that they do get released. They are treated as criminals in that country because you don’t have a visa to be in this country.

[00:18:39] You came in here illegally and through no fault of their own, right. So, so they came to, they came to Thailand legally because they thought they were getting a job. They get moved to other countries. the best example of this is, is the Philippines. So the Philippines is one of the few countries to actually disrupt some of these scam compounds.

[00:19:03] And when they do that, now they’re left with, okay, we’ve disrupted this compound. We have 650 people. That, when you think of, when you think of like, technically about how this is gonna work, okay, so now we’ve, we’ve got 650 people, where are we gonna put them? What are we going to feed them? How are we gonna make sure they have medicine and whatever they need?

[00:19:24] And then how are we gonna, how are we gonna sort out who’s a bad guy and who is a human trafficked victim? And then how are we gonna repatriate them? And it’s a massive, massive problem. And so what happens is everyone gets held as though they are a criminal until we, until they can sort stuff out. So another example is in Thailand where there was a crackdown in February of 2025 where, 5,000 people were released from Myanmar compounds.

[00:19:55] I think it was 7,000. And immediately China came and got their 5,000 people. They ran seven 30 sevens down to China and down from China into Thailand and picked up their people. Brazil came and got their people other countries came and got their people and they were left with 137 Ethiopians and Ethiopia said, we are not coming to get these people.

[00:20:20] We don’t have the money and we’re not doing it. So then you have 137 people who are being held. They, they, they can’t, they’re not legally allowed anywhere right now. Thailand doesn’t want them in their country. Ethiopia won’t come get them. And so what do we do? No matter how we look at this, no matter what happens in the next five years, we’re going to have a huge repatriation problem, and we are going to really see the effects of what happens when you move hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world into Southeast Asia and abuse them for five years or six years or seven.

[00:20:55] Like, we don’t know how this ends. We are in the middle of it, but it, it’s not going to be good.

[00:21:00] Sandie Morgan: So what is it going to take, and I know you are like, I am a huge proponent of collaboration, but what kind of cross-sector collaboration will it take to address this?

[00:21:18] Erin West: Yeah, I spend a lot of time thinking about this and I, I know that this doesn’t end until the world stands up against this, and this doesn’t end until we bring together banking, law enforcement, crypto diplomacy, victim assistance, and NGOs. And I think what we keep seeing is different parts of those connecting and siloing the information.

[00:21:44] This is not a who done it. We know who’s responsible. We know who’s behind all these, and we know that they are for the most part named, named Chinese organized criminals that we’re already familiar with. So in order to do something about that, we need to work together using every tool in our arsenal. So we need American law enforcement to indict these people and work with Interpol to get them extradited into the United States.

[00:22:14] We need diplomacy, we need American diplomats on the ground in Southeast Asia really forcing their hand and limiting access to American funds — Cambodia if you continue to allow this dirty business, if you continue to allow your country to be the scam economy that is stealing a generation’s worth of wealth from the United States, we are going to make your life very difficult.

[00:22:40] Sandie Morgan: Okay, so, you also mentioned banks and crypto.

[00:22:45] And these are not cross sector collaborators that I’ve worked with. Uh, law enforcement, victim services, State Department, all of that. This is the bread and butter of collaboration and anti-trafficking. How do we engage with banks? And I don’t even know where to begin with crypto.

[00:23:09] Erin West: So what I will say is that, banks have been coming to the table with regard to this because banks are the ones who are regulated of this whole industry. And so when I think of where the, where the issues are coming from, to me they are, are social media is, is enabling this.

[00:23:30] Our banks need education to help them stop the movement of money and crypto. I think, I think crypto has visibility into where this money is going. Everybody has a piece of this. So with banks, I think it’s super important and I’ve been working to educate credit unions, banking about the gravity of the problem.

[00:23:53] I think in a, in banking, everyone from, the person emptying the trash at night to the person in, in the CEO’s office needs to understand the gravity of how big this problem is. And so, it’s important to help educate them because what’s happening with banks and why banks are relevant is that our victims have to, they have to move the money and to move the money.

[00:24:17] It’s been the bank’s interest generally in helping you move your money as smoothly and as quickly as you’d like it to be. And we need to help them understand that adding friction to that makes sense and that adding friction to that when we are in a scamdemic makes sense. And so that’s, that’s how our banking fits in.

[00:24:40] Sandie Morgan: Okay. And we did a couple of podcasts and, listeners, I’ll find those links and put them in the show notes.

[00:24:49] And we interviewed folks from Validate where they do that kind of forensic accounting to find the bad actors when we hosted a round table on the financial implications of human trafficking. Erin, this has been such a challenging conversation. There is so much more we need to learn. How do we follow you?

[00:25:16] Erin West: Thank you for asking. So I, I have a website. It’s operationshamrock.org. And because it is such a challenging thing to learn, I started my own podcast and my podcast is called Stolen. It’s on Apple Podcasts on Spotify. Anywhere you get your podcasts go to Stolen with Erin West. And what it does is it breaks this down in a way that

[00:25:40] it is understandable to my Aunt Terry. Everybody needs to understand what is happening out there. And so I talk to survivors of this. I talk to, police officers who engage in, in trying to fix it, and I talk to banking, so it’s a great way to stay up to date with what is happening out there.

[00:25:58] Sandie Morgan: All right. What a delight to meet you now I understand Debbie Deem’s fascination with what you’re doing and commitment to partner.

[00:26:10] And we will too. Thank you so much for coming today.

[00:26:13] Erin West: Thank you for having me.

[00:26:15] Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Erin. You opened our eyes to pig butchering scams. You made us aware that end-to-end encryption can be weaponized by criminals, not just protective for users. That changes how we think about digital safety completely. Listeners, if you loved this conversation, make sure you check out our website@endinghumantrafficking.org for tons of in-depth show notes and other resources. If you’d love to help us grow this podcast, you can start by sharing this episode with someone and connecting with us on Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn.

[00:27:02] And as always, thanks for listening.

View Details

Dr. Beth Lorance joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as they discover how a high school coach gave one of his players expensive gifts, things her mother had refused to buy, with the mom posting online asking what to do, not realizing she was witnessing grooming behavior that creates the same vulnerabilities traffickers exploit in trusted spaces throughout our communities.

Dr. Beth LoranceDr. Beth Lorance is an adjunct professor at Vanguard University, where she teaches Family Violence and has also taught Introduction to Psychology and Psychology of the Family. She earned her PsyD in Clinical Psychology and previously served as the director of Vanguard’s counseling center. In addition to her academic background, Beth is a licensed minister with the Assemblies of God, which allows her to bring both psychological expertise and theological insight into conversations about abuse, trauma, and healing. Her passion is deeply personal, rooted in her own family history of child sexual abuse, and she is committed to equipping others to use their voices to prevent abuse, protect the vulnerable, and walk alongside survivors. Beth also works to bring awareness into the church, encouraging faith communities to reflect Jesus’ response to victims and to take seriously the call to protect those who are most vulnerable.

Key Points* Family violence creates deep vulnerabilities by teaching children harmful lessons that love is transactional, they’re not enough, and there’s something wrong with them that they can’t overcome – wounds that become embedded in their brain chemistry when trauma happens at a young age. * Traffickers don’t create vulnerabilities but rather exploit existing wounds from family abuse, stepping into unmet needs and exploiting lessons already learned about intimacy being tied to exploitation. * Statistics reveal that 90% of abusers are known to their victims with only 10% being strangers, and 31% of traffickers are actually family members of the victim, making “stranger danger” education insufficient. * Grooming is a process of control and manipulation that builds trust, chips away boundaries, and creates dependency so victims willingly comply when lines are crossed into inappropriate behavior because they’ve been normalized to the perpetrator’s actions. * Training is essential for leaders, staff, pastors, volunteers, and teachers to recognize grooming signs like expensive gift-giving, requests for secrecy, and isolating language such as “your parents don’t understand you, but I do.” * Clear boundaries and policies are crucial, including no one-on-one supervision between adults and children, with swift consequences when policies aren’t followed to prevent grooming opportunities. * Children need to be empowered to say no even to trusted adults, with parents and leaders respecting their boundaries and teaching them about “tricky people” rather than just strangers. * Trauma-informed communities must stop asking “what’s wrong with you?” and instead listen without judgment, sitting with broken people without requiring them to change or behave in prescribed ways to receive care. * Parents should be vigilant about adults in their children’s lives, knowing what interactions look like and requiring that any adult who wants to be friends with their child must be friends with the parent first. * Breaking the cycle requires communities that believe victims, provide someone to stand up for those who can’t yet stand up for themselves, and create new family structures when biological families fail to protect.

Resources* 204 – Is Your Organization Trauma Informed and Why Should It Be? * 124 – Prevention: Trauma Informed and Transformational Schools

Transcript[00:00:00] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. I’m Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today I’m joined by Dr.

[00:00:22] Beth Lorance. She’s an adjunct professor at Vanguard and former director of Vanguard’s Counseling Center. Beth earned her PsyD in clinical psychology and is also a licensed minister. Today we’ll discover how a high school coach gave one of his players expensive gifts, things her mother had refused to buy.

[00:00:49] The mom posted online asking what to do, not realizing she was witnessing grooming behavior. This same pattern creates vulnerabilities that traffickers exploit, and it’s happening in trusted spaces throughout your community. Now here’s our interview.

[00:01:11] Well, Dr. Beth Lorance, I am so excited to have you on the Ending Human Trafficking podcast today.

[00:01:20] Beth Lorance: I am excited to be here.

[00:01:21] Sandie Morgan: We were just chatting before I hit the record button, and we have known each other for two decades.

[00:01:28] Beth Lorance: It’s been a long time.

[00:01:30] Sandie Morgan: and what a deep friendship and collegiality, as I was pursuing my PhD and you were pursuing your PsyD and clinical psychology

[00:01:44] and, changing off, I taught family violence. Now you teach family violence and I’m a guest in your class, and

[00:01:54] Beth Lorance: I know. It’s wonderful.

[00:01:56] Sandie Morgan: love it, the collegiality and just tossing things back and forth as we work together to make things better for our kids.

[00:02:07] So we’re gonna talk today about the link between family violence and human trafficking.

[00:02:14] And I know in my world that many of the victims of human trafficking that we’ve served right here in Orange County, California started with some kind of childhood trauma,

[00:02:31] and that often happened in a family context,

[00:02:35] so I would like to start with talking about how you help your students unpack the complex dynamics of abuse and how that might contribute to fostering vulnerabilities that then traffickers exploit.

[00:02:59] Beth Lorance: Yeah. really when we look at family violence, what we see is that it creates all of these vulnerabilities in a person’s life. And if they don’t find healing from those vulnerabilities, if they don’t come to recognize them, if they don’t come to get over them, get over is not the right terminology, but to, um, move beyond them,

[00:03:21] then they can be exploited later on in life. And we do that in my class as we talk about what family violence does for an individual. And we look at things like, the lessons that abuse teaches a person. And when a person faces trauma or abuse at a young age, they learn these lessons that they’re not enough,

[00:03:42] that love is transactional, that there’s something wrong with them that they can’t overcome. And, no matter what the type of abuse is, if it’s sexual abuse or emotional abuse, neglect or physical abuse, they begin to learn these lessons. And it’s more than just a, like a lesson you would learn in school.

[00:04:03] If the trauma happens at a young age, it begins to rewire your brain chemistry and it really becomes embedded in how you see the world and how you, interact with people around you. How you experience, love. You begin to confuse danger with love or attention. it will impair a person’s decision making.

[00:04:25] It will increase their fear response. And all of that is because of this trauma that they experienced in their family at a young age or even at a middle age, like a adolescent, that kind of thing. And so that’s what we do in my classes. We unpack that and we look at how, that impacts a person and how we can prevent and intervene and bring healing to people that have experienced that in their lives.

[00:04:52] Sandie Morgan: So let’s go and look at this from the perspective of a victim of human trafficking.

[00:05:00] We often credit the traffickers at being master manipulators. They start grooming someone and three weeks later they are turning them out in a prostituted situation,

[00:05:14] but that grooming seems to have started at a much younger age. Can you connect the dots for me?

[00:05:24] Beth Lorance: Yeah. So there’s a couple of ways to look at that. The first is, if we look at example of a person that maybe was neglected at a young age, and so they have, they weren’t given their basic needs of life. And so they, come to see themselves as an invisible and unwanted, they don’t have their, any affection that they, needs being met.

[00:05:48] those kinds of things. And they begin, they, that they begin to believe that they are not, they do not deserve to be cared for at all. and that leaves them vulnerable. So a trafficker can step right into that vulnerability and say, I can provide these unmet needs for you, but this is just what you need to do for me so that I can provide those unmet needs for you.

[00:06:13] Or somebody that has experienced sexual abuse, they are taught and they learn lessons about and lies really about intimacy and relationships, and they come to believe that love is tied to exploitation. They, learn that their value is only what they can give someone else.

[00:06:32] And these are wounds that are deep that a trafficker can just step right into and exploit for their own purposes. And so, when we talk about grooming, we’re not talking about a trafficker coming in and grooming somebody that comes from a family where they’ve learned they have value or they learned that they can be,

[00:06:54] stand up for themselves, or they’ve learned that they have a voice. They already have these deep wounds and these lessons that they’ve learned that allow the trafficker to exploit those things.

[00:07:06] Sandie Morgan: So when I am looking at this grooming process. That starts from a base of lessons learned and. Honestly, when you first started talking about lessons learned, I’m an educator and I love learning, and so hearing lessons learned in a negative context is like fingernails on a chalkboard

[00:07:34] for me. Why? Our students, why are my kiddos learning lessons that are wrong? And those lessons are then deeply ingrained from the time they’re a child.

[00:07:48] Whether it’s the, the violence is the first response, whether it’s the neglect. And one thing I used to teach the family violence class. I wanted to see my students’ faces when they began to understand that neglect is often the number one

[00:08:12] prevalent form of abuse.

[00:08:15] There are no marks. It’s all internal, but it creates a very fertile field for the kind of manipulation and coercion that traffickers use. So.

[00:08:30] Thinking about, how they introduce coercion into that grooming process. What does that look like?

[00:08:41] Beth Lorance: So, when we talk about grooming, we have to really, for some people, we have to define what do we mean by grooming? And it’s this idea that, um, it’s a really a process of control and manipulation that. Begins to build trust in a person. it chips away their boundaries.

[00:09:00] It creates dependency so that when the line is crossed to inappropriate behavior or wanting the person to do something that’s, that’s inappropriate to trafficking somebody, They are already well willing to do that because they trust this person, they love this person, this person is meeting their needs. And they, it may confuse them, like, why is this person that loves me or that I trust wants me to do these things? But they’ve been normalized into how this person behaves. So I think of a person who, a, a groomer who is very charismatic, very gregarious, very friendly, very loving, and starts to show affection to somebody, puts their arm around them, gives them a hug, and wears down this idea that physical touch is inappropriate with a, with somebody of this age, and when they then cross the line into something.

[00:09:58] inappropriate, the victim is like, oh, this is normal. This person loves me. This person is just this way with me. And because of that, they’re able to, they’re able to do what they need, what they want to do with the, with the victim.

[00:10:14] Sandie Morgan: Okay. So what you’re describing feels natural

[00:10:20] for, for this child or this, young person and just in the last week, we both live here in Orange County, a high school coach and a church staff member were arrested for child abuse.

[00:10:36] They were entrusted communities where giving a kiddo a hug or something is, it feels okay. Right?

[00:10:46] So talk to me about our fixation on Stranger Danger and not understanding how we protect our kids in, in our trusted communities.

[00:11:01] And I’m using air quotes.

[00:11:03] Beth Lorance: Yeah. Well, Perpetrators of abuse can be anywhere. they, they can be coaches, like you mentioned. They can be teachers, they can be, people in your church, your pastors, your lay leaders. They can be a close family friend. Really what we’re finding now, statistics show the CDC has come out with statistics that

[00:11:23] say the 90% of abusers are known to their victims, and only 10% are actually strangers. and then when we look at trafficking specifically, the US State Department came out with a statistic that said 31% of tracker traffickers are actually family members of the victim. And when we, when we look at that, we’re looking at people that you are in your everyday life, that know your family, that know your parents, and we’re not warning our children how, or teaching our children how to stay safe from them.

[00:12:00] And we’re not. being vigilant when we look at interactions between these quote unquote trusted individuals versus strangers out there, and I like to say, you know, when I was a kid, we were taught stranger danger in school, you see a stranger and you run away, you yell, you do all these things. What I teach my kids is we need to be worried about tricky people.

[00:12:26] And tricky people are people that try to trick you into doing something that is wrong or that you don’t wanna do. And, it can look like a variety of things. It can look like saying, let’s keep this a secret from your mom. You know, we’re gonna have this special moment that we keep a secret from her.

[00:12:45] Here’s, here’s a lot of gifts, giving gifts to the child or the young adult and saying, oh, but don’t tell anybody about that I’m giving you this gift. They won’t understand or saying to a child, your, or a teenager, your mom doesn’t understand you, your dad doesn’t understand you, but I understand you. So you can tell me your secrets and I will understand what you’re going through and be here for you. And when we’re more vigilant about adults in our children’s lives that are doing those kinds of things, we can begin to protect them from groomers and things like this.

[00:13:20] Sandie Morgan: So when I was teaching that class, you were my guest

[00:13:26] and, I remember talking to you about one of my students who wasn’t able to rejoin her family for Christmas because her abuser was a relative who would be at the holiday table. Talk about what happens when this strikes a family unit.

[00:13:53] Beth Lorance: Well, this really,

[00:13:54] Hits into my personal story and I come from a family that has a history of family violence. This is why I am passionate about this topic and I so enjoy teaching the class family violence that I teach. And I came from a family that, from the outside it looked very perfect.

[00:14:15] It looked like, you know, it’s the kind of family you wanna be a part of. We were large. We got along well from the outside. We were very close. We spent a lot of time together. I was raised in the church. My parents were missionaries. So my dad was a minister. All of my growing up years. My grandparents were very faithful church attenders.

[00:14:37] They were, they taught Sunday school, they were on the board. They did everything you can to volunteer at a church. But what nobody knew was that my family had a very dark secret, and that was that my grandfather was a child molester.

[00:14:55] And he, had been molesting children in our family, children outside of our family, people that saw him as a trusted adult, people that saw him as their church leader, as their educator.

[00:15:10] and, for many years, and this did not come out until I was an adult, until I was in college. And while I was never a direct victim of my. Grandfather. Many of the people in my family, many of my siblings and my cousins, and my aunts and uncles were victims of my grandfather. And so when we talk about how do you then live with an abuser, it becomes very difficult because especially when you’re disclosing for the first time and you’re having to work through all of your feelings about that.

[00:15:48] And when that. That abuser is protected by other family members and you’re not allowed to talk about it or you’re not believed, that this could be happening. And I was very lucky in my family. We were very lucky that the victims were believed from the beginning, and that when my grandfather was finally confronted, he confessed and he ended up going to prison.

[00:16:12] where he has since passed away in prison and that was, he passed away about 15 years ago. but my story is unusual in that most victims are not believed by their families. And so then to go and be a part of that family unit is a very difficult thing and it takes a lot of, um, strength of mind and of.

[00:16:32] Of will to say this isn’t right and I’m gonna stand up against what happened to me. And so there’s really no good answer except for having somebody that can walk alongside the victim and say, until you have the strength to stand up for yourself, I will stand up for you. And I will be your voice and I will listen to the ways in which your family hurt you.

[00:16:56] And I believe you. And if you need a new family, we will, we will be family so that you don’t have to subject yourself to that. And, it’s a long process to get to a point where, they feel that they can stand up for themselves, then

[00:17:14] Sandie Morgan: So breaking that silence

[00:17:17] and then being believed, and particularly thinking through how a community can be more trauma informed,

[00:17:27] that’s going to support the, the healing process.

[00:17:31] So.

[00:17:32] Beth Lorance: Yes.

[00:17:33] Sandie Morgan: What does trauma informed look like? Okay, so your family situation

[00:17:38] was in the church and Oh my gosh. In the church there is so much shame.

[00:17:43] some families just quit going to church. What do you say to church leaders to make sure their team is trauma informed?

[00:17:57] Beth Lorance: We need to stop asking the question, What’s wrong with you? You know, I think that’s so much what people do is they’re saying, what’s, what’s wrong? why are you acting this way? Why are you, why is that happening to you? And just listening and listening and being supportive and being nonjudgmental.

[00:18:19] And so for me, it’s, when I talk, speak to church leaders, I talk about how, Jesus calls us to get down in the broken places with broken people and listen to them. and not to try to change them, not to be judgmental, not to try to tell them how they’re supposed to be responding, but to just be with them.

[00:18:43] and that’s, that’s really what I encourage is in part of being trauma informed, is just listening and, sitting with people. And not judging them for their, for what they do and what they say.

[00:18:57] Sandie Morgan: And. For me personally, in my experience, that not judging piece is the hardest thing for those who want to come alongside. They want to see progress and they might say things like, well, I’ve been praying for you, so you should

[00:19:16] feel better. You should be coming to, this extra opportunity for a Bible study or a women’s group, or a youth group. How do we in a trauma informed perspective, adjust people’s expectations of the healing process?

[00:19:37] Beth Lorance: Yeah. Part of it is realizing that sometimes it’s really hard to share your story, and it’s really hard to be seen by people ,to truly be seen. And if we require a person to, if we require an understanding of somebody’s story to be able to love them, then we’re not really loving them. We’re doing exactly what the people that abuse them to do.

[00:20:03] We say our love is transactional. You have to tell me your story. You have to behave the way that I behave, that I want you to behave in order to receive the care and the love that, I wanna, I wanna give you. And, if people begin to realize that their actions are not that much different than that of the abuser, if we make.

[00:20:27] If we prescribe to a victim how they should act, then maybe they, we would start to see a change and maybe we would start to see people be less judgmental. But just to reframe, when I say to somebody, I’m praying for you, why aren’t you getting better? Or, why aren’t you coming to church? Or, why don’t I see you at Bible study?

[00:20:48] What I’m saying is, I’m only praying for you so that I’ll see a change in your life. And if I don’t see what I deem quote unquote as change, then maybe I’m not gonna pray for you anymore, or maybe I’m not gonna support you anymore, or maybe I’m not gonna listen. And that does a disservice.

[00:21:06] And that’s not what we’re called to do. We’re called to listen to people and sit with people in, in spite of how they act, even because of how they act. And maybe the fact that they can’t come to the Bible study or they can’t come to the prayer meeting, that’s really a sign of them saying, this is where I’m hurting.

[00:21:25] That’s a symptom of their healing process and we need to respect that.

[00:21:32] Sandie Morgan: Wow.

[00:21:32] Beth Lorance: it is hard. It’s hard to be non-judgmental. I have to say to myself all the time, we listen and we don’t judge, and I mean it’s hard, but that’s what, that’s what we’re called to do.

[00:21:44] Sandie Morgan: wow. I’m gonna write that one down because Yeah, that’s good. Okay, so we understand. The process for trauma informed and we’ll put links to some previous episodes where we’ve spent some time drilling down on trauma informed. But I wanna go

[00:22:03] back to grooming because I’d like to make sure that those of us who are in communities where. It’s a community of trust, a school, a faith organization. How can we protect and recognize grooming behaviors early before they can be, weaponized?

[00:22:28] Beth Lorance: This is really important and really, it’s about training leaders, staff members, pastors, volunteers, teachers, what the signs of grooming are, And so that they know when they see it, they can recognize it and they can respond to it. I was watching a video just this week of a woman telling a story about how her daughter came home with a really expensive gift from her coach, and the woman was like, I don’t know what to do about this.

[00:23:01] I it was a really expensive gift. I don’t think my daughter should accept it, but what should I do? And then the next day she had posted another video saying My daughter came home with another really expensive gift. And this gift I had actually told my daughter I wasn’t going to buy for her. And the woman was like, I don’t know what’s going on.

[00:23:23] And that is a basic sign of grooming. The fact that this coach is giving expensive gifts to one girl on the team and their, their gifts that the mother would not buy for the girl on her own. And if people don’t realize that, that’s a sign of grooming, they don’t know what’s going on and they. They think it’s innocent.

[00:23:45] They think it’s no big deal, and they just allow it to happen. So we need to train clearly our, and equip our educators, our pastors, our volunteers, parents with what it looks like, what grooming looks like, and then once they see grooming and do they respond to it? What do they do? I think the second thing we need is clear boundaries.

[00:24:08] We need to create policies that limit the ability for an adult to groom a child. So this might mean that there’s no, your policy says there’s no one-on-one supervision between adults and children. And, youth pastors always get upset about that ’cause they’re, they say things like, well, how can I mentor, this youth member, how can I help them know they’re cared about?

[00:24:36] And I always say, well do it with two. You know, like it, the more the merrier. You don’t need to individually mentor somebody for them to be changed by a relationship with you. You can do that in a way that keeps the child safe and keeps you safe. And so you have to have clear boundaries, very specific boundaries, and people that, respond and follow policy correctly.

[00:25:07] And that when policy isn’t followed, that those people receive the consequence of that very swiftly. You have to be very clear on those things. And then the other thing I think is so important in preventing grooming is we have to empower our kids. We have to teach our kids about tricky people. We have to explain to them what unsafe behavior it looks like, and we have to give them the ability to say no even to trusted adults.

[00:25:39] You know, I, it’s so often you go and somebody wants to hug my daughter. I have a, a very cute daughter. She’s very lovable and people want to hug her all the time. And sometimes she doesn’t want to hug them, and I have to give her the right to say no to that. And that when the adult insists on the hug, I have to stand up for her and say, she said no, so you don’t need to hug her.

[00:26:08] and that’s something that’s important that we empower our kids to say no, and we respect it when they say no. So that they learn that their, that their boundaries matter and their words matter.

[00:26:21] Sandie Morgan: So if a child comes from a situation where there is family violence, so we know there’re going to be more vulnerable to grooming and

[00:26:32] to just plain inappropriate adult, uh, tension. how do we teach that child about tricky people? because in many situations we have as leaders deferred to, oh, it’s a parental supervision issue, I’ll tell the parents. But, if the parents aren’t listening, if the parents have not been involved in this particular aspect, how does like a youth leader or a coach begin to integrate that kind of resilience in their. Their leadership with kids so that those kids know they can say no.

[00:27:23] Beth Lorance: I think it’s respecting the words a kid says. So when a kid speaks, it’s really listening to them and believing them and encouraging them to talk about how they feel about things. So I think that’s something a leader could do, a teacher could do. Also I think it’s important to remember that grooming happens to, to the victims but

[00:27:46] often parents are groomed also and somebody that wants to, hurt a child, victimize a child. They will often also groom the parents and they will ingratiate themselves with the parents and, Make it so that the parents have no qualms when the child wants to go off with that adult, have no concerns when the child is spending a lot of time with that adult.

[00:28:13] And so for me, I like to tell parents that you need to know what your child is doing with a

[00:28:21] adult, even if it’s an adult you trust, as much as possible. So I want parents to just be aware of the adults in their kids’ lives and know them, but know them, know what the interactions with that, that adult and their child are like also.

[00:28:40] And so that when their kid comes and says things about that adult, you understand what is going on in that relationship. I’m very careful that, in my own family life that I watch, the inner action that my child has with these adults so that my child doesn’t spend time alone with any adults that I haven’t watched how they interact with each other.

[00:29:02] for a significant amount of time with that adult until, so I can see how that adult responds to my children. And if I don’t like how they respond to my children, I don’t allow my child to be alone with that adult. And it might not just be a fear of them being groomed or sexually abused, but maybe I fear of them not being treated nicely or being talked down to because.

[00:29:23] or being made jokes about that kind of thing. I also am really big on if my, if a, if an adult wants to be friends with one of my child, they need to be friends with me first. And, don’t come into a space where I’m with one of my children and talk only to my children without talking to me. Oftentimes, especially, with younger children, you’ll have other adults that wanted to interact with them. And I’m like, that’s fine. As long as I know you and you’re friends with me, then you can talk with my child. But otherwise. You know, greet me first. Talk to me first. This is the relationship you should be worried about.

[00:30:05] Not a relationship with my five-year-old. So that’s another thing. I think we need to teach leaders that, they can help impact families. ’cause they can pass that information onto to parents as the, and they can pass that information on to kids and so that would be something else that I think would be important.

[00:30:23] Sandie Morgan: Wow. This gives us some deeper concerns about understanding grooming, and I encourage listeners to go back and review some of our past episodes as well. So, Dr. Beth Lorenz, what gives you hope for the next generation of leaders and advocates to prevent family violence and possible grooming for human trafficking?

[00:30:57] Beth Lorance: Really, there’s two things that give me hope, and one of them is my students. And when I, we just started this semester and I’ve taught one class, and, I am so excited about the students that are in my class this semester. They’re engaged with the topic. They wanna learn, they wanna understand. They wanna say, you know, violence is not, should not be in our homes, violence should not be in our churches.

[00:31:23] It should not be in our schools. And they’re excited about learning to use their voice to stand up for those that don’t have a voice. And that’s often what violence does. Abuse does. Trauma does, is it steals a person’s voice. And, um, so that, that gives me hope that there’s young people that care about this, that wanna use their voice, that wanna learn how they can impact

[00:31:52] the vulnerable, how they can sit with a broken, and that’s always exciting for me. I also get excited when churches, I work a lot with churches and training pastors and I get really excited when churches get it. They begin to understand what Jesus’ view on victimhood is. And they understand what they need to do to help a person find healing.

[00:32:19] And it’s always exciting to me when I talk to a church leader and they’re able to. Express something to me that I’ve always known, you know, or that’s part of what I teach, and they’re able to, and they agree, they agree with what the current research is saying, or they agree with how we need to be responding to victims, or they agree with, um,

[00:32:43] what it looks like to walk with a person that’s a victim.

[00:32:48] They agree with this idea that it’s our job to protect the vulnerable, and that always makes me excited and gives me hope for the future.

[00:32:58] Sandie Morgan: I love it. I love it. And what a great opportunity to take this podcast back to your community and find out if they agree and you can be a voice and make a difference in reducing vulnerability for kids that may be more

[00:33:21] susceptible to grooming. Thank you for listening.

[00:33:25] Thank you Dr. Beth for being with us today. It’s been great.

[00:33:30] Beth Lorance: It’s my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

[00:33:33] Thank you, Dr. Beth Lorance for sharing your expertise and personal story with us today. Your insight about teaching children to watch for tricky people rather than just strangers, completely reframes how we protect kids in trusted environments.

[00:33:52] Sandie Morgan: Listeners, if you loved this conversation, make sure you check out our website@endinghumantrafficking.org for tons of in-depth show notes and other resources.

[00:34:05] If you’d love to help us grow the podcast, you can start by sharing this episode with someone and connecting with us on Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. And as always, thanks for listening.

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Patrick McDonough joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss his groundbreaking $40 million jury verdict against a hotel for enabling child sex trafficking and how this landmark case is changing accountability standards across the hospitality industry.

Patrick McDonoughPatrick J. McDonough is a nationally recognized attorney and advocate who leads the Sex Trafficking Division at Andersen, Tate & Carr. With a legal career marked by justice-driven leadership and deep community engagement, Pat has dedicated his life to representing survivors of sex trafficking and fighting systemic injustice. Before joining Andersen, Tate & Carr, Pat made history as the youngest District Attorney in the state of Georgia, where he pioneered the development of child advocacy centers, providing trauma-informed care and legal support to child victims of sexual abuse. In his legal practice, Pat has built a comprehensive, survivor-centered approach to litigation, assembling a national network of professionals to support clients from first contact through final judgment. His efforts have earned widespread recognition, being featured in The New York Times, The Washington Post, Sports Illustrated, Forbes, and the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Outside the courtroom, Pat has raised over $1 million to support unhoused individuals and founded HomeFirst Gwinnett and the Gwinnett Reentry Intervention Program (GRIP).

Key Points* McDonough won a historic $40 million jury verdict in July 2025 against United Inn & Suites in Decatur, Georgia, marking one of the first TVPRA cases against a hotel to reach trial and verdict. * The case involved a 16-year-old victim who was trafficked over 200 times in just 40 days, with hotel staff selling her condoms and ignoring obvious signs of trafficking. * The verdict included $10 million in compensatory damages to make the victim whole and $30 million in punitive damages designed to send a message to the entire hospitality industry. * Hotels cannot claim ignorance when red flags are obvious—if staff see what appears to be prostitution, they should call law enforcement regardless of whether they can definitively identify it as trafficking. * Clear warning signs include high foot traffic with men going in and out of rooms every 20-30 minutes, scantily clad young women, large numbers of used condoms found during cleaning, and luxury cars visiting budget hotels. * Hotel staff empowerment comes from the top—management must train employees and create a culture where staff are encouraged to report suspicious activity rather than just “rent rooms and make money.” * Simple staff training on recognizing red flags and proper reporting procedures can prevent hotels from becoming trafficking hotspots and protect them from legal liability. * McDonough has settled over 80 similar cases, but this verdict was particularly significant because the hotel refused reasonable settlement offers and chose to go to trial. * Community members play a vital role in prevention by reporting unusual traffic patterns and suspicious activity to law enforcement, as it truly “takes a village” to combat trafficking.

Resources* Patrick McDonough at Andersen, Tate & Carr * EHT187 – Why Is Labor Trafficking So Hard To Find?

Transcript[00:00:00] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. I’m Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today I’m joined by attorney Patrick McDonough, partner at Anderson, Tate and Carr, and he leads their sex trafficking division.

[00:00:35] Pat just won a $40 million jury verdict that sending shockwaves through the hotel industry. His 16-year-old client had been trafficked over 200 times in just 40 days while staff sold her condoms and ignored obvious signs. This case changes the rules for every hotel in America and reveals red flags that could be happening in your own community. And now here’s our interview.

[00:01:13] Sandie Morgan: Patrick McDonough, I am thrilled to have you on the ending Human Trafficking Podcast. Welcome.

[00:01:20] Patrick McDonough: Thank you so much. I’m, I’m thrilled to be here.

[00:01:23] Sandie Morgan: I was so excited when I saw the headline that there was a $40 million judgment in a trafficking case. Tell me how you ended up in the courtroom where you were able to achieve that kind of result for a victim of human trafficking.

[00:01:50] Patrick McDonough: Well, I met our survivor, probably five years ago, so it’s been a long journey, on a road to getting into trial, and I’ve probably settled a little north of 80 cases, and typically when you get really close to trial, that’s when they finally decide that they’re going to provide some type of compensation and you often are able to, to resolve the case.

[00:02:13] But for whatever reason, this, hotel and kind of insurance company decided that they wanted to take us to task and, and, and really never offered anything that we would’ve even considered. So it gave us a great opportunity. There wasn’t a hard decision to make, like, you know, should we take the money or should we go to trial?

[00:02:30] So we were able to just really go forward and try the case. And really, the most profound thing for me, I’ve been doing these cases now for six years, is, you know, we believe how to prove these cases and we believe our survivors and, and we believe we know how to prove the case. And, and obviously we’ve convinced a number of people to settle, but it, it’s really meaningful when we were able to talk to the jurors after the case, and like all the things that we had kind of believed over these years, they, they validated, and in fact, the defense attorneys would ask questions and things I think that they might’ve even believed.

[00:03:04] They, you know, they, they did not believe, the jury didn’t believe. So it was very, very validating.

[00:03:09] Sandie Morgan: Give me a couple of examples of, of what the jurors believed.

[00:03:15] Patrick McDonough: So one of the big, kind of themes on the defense approach is they try to make it like a legal class, and they try to argue that one of the elements in this federal lawsuit is what they call participation in a venture. And so they would try to explain that as well to have. The trafficker participate in a venture with the hotel.

[00:03:33] They almost make it sound like it has to be a party to a crime. Like the trafficker walks into the front of the hotel and like says, Hey, I’m gonna be in this back room trafficking somebody. And that’s not really what the law says. The law really says if the hotel knows this is going on or should know this is going on then and they’re taking money on it, they should be held liable or, or responsible.

[00:03:54] But it’s been a constant fight with multiple defense attorneys really throughout the country. And it was just very nice when they, the defense attorney asked the jurors like, you know, what was it that proved participation in a venture? And all the jurors said, you know, it wasn’t one thing, it, it was the whole case.

[00:04:09] It was the three different victims that we put up. It was the two police officers that said they had a bad reputation. It was the expert in how she explained it. So it, it was just one of those things that was very heart heartwarming that the case we put together, you know, the jury really understood it and, and validated it.

[00:04:26] Sandie Morgan: And how many attorneys were on the team with you?

[00:04:31] Patrick McDonough: So three of us tried the case. I had co-counsel, really good co-counsel in this case, uh,David Bouchard and Otto Echo. the three of us tried the case, but there’s other people on my team, John Toge and Rory and, and Jennifer Webster that have, helped throughout different parts of the process. But it was three of us that tried it.

[00:04:52] Sandie Morgan: And in the news article that I read, it talked about one victim who was identified with initials who had been trafficked there at age 16, but you just mentioned three victims that testified.

[00:05:09] Patrick McDonough: That’s right. And so this case was about one victim and she, it was one victim against the hotel. But one of the most powerful things that we have been able to do successfully is we have other victims that maybe they had different cases. So these two other people that tell, well, lemme take that back. One person had a different case ’cause her trafficking was worse at a different hotel.

[00:05:31] But she still was willing to come testify because she had been at this hotel. So even though she didn’t sue it, she’s a witness, she was another victim. There was another victim that you might not consider classically trafficking, and I’m not sure we would’ve been able to get it across the finish line by herself, but she, she was trafficked.

[00:05:49] In fact, had to, had to see, basically a trafficker made her have a date in a car so they would get the room. She didn’t see anybody else after that. But it, it tied into our theme because J.G our victim had to also see multiple or dates in the cars and not just in the rooms, which again, is a bigger indicator that hotels should have known what was going on and it corroborated what they said.

[00:06:11] So having multiple victims testify, even if they’re not plaintiffs, can really support your case. And, and that’s been kind of a, something we’ve done from the beginning. I tried a case last year in federal court for three weeks and we had 11 victims in that case, against Red Roof in it settled the day before it went to the jury, so we didn’t get it all the way to verdict, but it’s a very powerful tool when you’re trying cases.

[00:06:35] Sandie Morgan: So you, won 10 million in damages, compensatory damages, and 30 million in punitive damages. Will you break that down for our listeners to understand why it’s broken up like that?

[00:06:52] Patrick McDonough: Sure. The first part is really the entire case is all about compensating the victim. So what is the value of someone who’s been essentially statutory, raped and sold 200 times at a hotel? Because a hotel is, profiting off that and what, what would make her whole, like what are things that they can do financially to compensate her for all the trauma that she has experienced and will experience for a lifetime?

[00:07:17] And so that was the $10 million verdict, if you get a compensatory verdict at that point, you go to a second phase. And the second phase is a punitive damages phase. And punitive damages are more about punishing the hotel. And one of the things that’s so powerful about punitive damages and really

[00:07:37] kind of means so much to us in the trenches is it’s not just punishing this hotel. It’s not just saying you’re getting punished because of what you did, but it is saying we’re sending a message to the industry. So if you’re in the hospitality industry, be aware that if you turn a blind eye to this type of conduct, you could be punished and that, and it ratchets up the money.

[00:07:58] So it’s a second. It’s a second type of damage.

[00:08:01] Sandie Morgan: Okay, so over 200 times in a 40 day period at the same property. Is that correct?

[00:08:23]Patrick McDonough: That’s right.

[00:08:24] Sandie Morgan: Okay. So you presented testimony that the motel staff ignored clear red flags.

[00:08:25] Patrick McDonough: Well, let, let me answer this in, in two parts because a lot of times people think, oh, I need to take this class in sex trafficking and I need to really understand this to ever be able to spot it. And like the hotels will often say things like, well, I might’ve seen adult prostitution, but you know, I’ve never, I would never put up with or see sex trafficking.

[00:08:43] And so one of the things I tell people, and what we hope people learn or even take through your podcasts and that are trained is. If you’re a business at this, in this case a hotel, but any business and you see what you think might be prostitution, ’cause most people say they can identify that fairly easily.

[00:09:02] High foot traffic man going in and out of a room every 20, 30 minutes, right? Maybe a, a young woman or, or an older woman that is scantily clad. Like those two signs alone is enough. We believe for you to call law enforcement and then let them do the investigation, you don’t have to do anymore. Now in hotels, they have kind of an additional thing when they send cleaning people in and there happens to be 10 to 15 used condoms every day, and there’s a young person staying there with doesn’t appear to be apparent.

[00:09:29] You know, that’s even more corroboration. So there there’s a number of things that can put people onto that sex trafficking could be going on. The other fundamental I think a lot of people don’t understand is if you’re under 18 years old and you’re engaged in commercial sex. The buyer, in fact, is a sex trafficker.

[00:09:47] So you don’t even have to have a pimp or a scary guy around the corner. And so we try to let people know if they’re training hotels or businesses. You don’t have to be an expert. You don’t have to check off 10 different things. If you see something that looks like prostitution, call police and the police, they might set up a sting.

[00:10:04] They might do more surveillance. They might go knock on the door. But that’s ultimately how you slow this down because here’s what traffickers don’t want. They do not want to go to a hotel where they get arrested. Their property, which is the children they’re selling get arrested or their buyers get arrested.

[00:10:19] And if they go to a property where someone’s calling the police every time they suspect, even prostitution, they’re not gonna go there. So, so I would just say in general common sense, if you see something that looks like, you don’t even have to figure out if it’s sex trafficking. She might be 17, she might be 19, might be sex trafficking, might be prostitution.

[00:10:37] Just do the right thing and call law enforcement. so that’s generally what we like to talk about. In this case in particular, I mean, as I said, a hundred of the 200 date, I’m calling them dates, but dates that she had to see, were done in cars, much more visible to, a hotel that had cameras and they allegedly had security that were walking the property.

[00:10:57] I mean, they certainly should have seen that. You know, there’s high foot traffic coming in and out. In this particular case, there was testimony about a night. a night front desk person that actually would call the traffickers and warn them if the police were on the property. So there was a, you know, there was multiple layers of, of what they knew or should have known.

[00:11:15] Sandie Morgan: Well, and in one of the articles that I read about this case, there were condoms sold to the minor and by motel staff. Explain that.

[00:11:28] Patrick McDonough: This is a perfect example of, like they, they should know. So one of the victims that I mentioned, she ended up seeing one date, she didn’t have a case, but she had to see that one date in that car to get the room for everybody else. She testified that her and another girl, and they had a picture of them in the hotel, very scarcely clad.

[00:11:47] Look, I think she was even younger She might’ve been 15. But anyway, young girls walking up to the front desk multiple times and buying condoms, and they’re just selling ’em to these girls, these young children. I mean, that, that should clearly be a red flag, right? That’s not, something that, that should happen without there being some follow up.

[00:12:06] Sandie Morgan: Yeah. I usually just go ask for extra soap or something. Yeah, I didn’t even think about, that kind of availability. So, so the evidence really clearly demonstrated that the staff ignored those red flags. Then how did the defense, respond to that?

[00:12:33] Patrick McDonough: Well, here’s, and I wanna caveat this, there are a ton of wonderful hotel operators that do the right thing. So this is not, you know, a blanket all hotels are terrible. Our economy hotels are terrible. There’s quite a many wonderful people, but here’s the, every case I’ve ever had, they bring the manager in that typically either lives at the hotel or is there full-time.

[00:12:54] They have cameras. There’s kind of no question they know what’s going on, but they just deny it. They just flat out say, never saw it. Dunno what you’re talking about. never seen prostitution, never seen sex trafficking, not on my watch. And so they, again, it just, you know, becomes a a he said, and then it’s not just a, she said, that’s why we build the case.

[00:13:12] Right. What our victim said, what the two other victims said, how our expert testifies what police officers would come in and say that this is a hot spot. but they just deny it. Basically. The two things they do, they start, or three, they start with denying it from the hotel standpoint. Then the lawyers try to

[00:13:30] get the jury to think that the standard is much higher. They try to make it sound like you have to have a criminal conspiracy, which you do not. And, and they just say, sh you know, she might have been sex trafficked and I feel sad for her, but you know, we don’t know about it. How would we know about it?

[00:13:44] It’s not our fault. And then the next thing they do is they try to blame. If you’re gonna blame anybody, just put it all on the trafficker. Or they sometimes, in this case, they weren’t as bad. This defense attorney was actually quite, I thought, good to our victim. But I’ve had other defense attorneys where they just, you know, they just victim blame, you know, it’s your fault.

[00:14:02] You wanted this, why didn’t you leave? you were at other hotels. Why are you picking on us? So it’s just always, it’s like a little kid getting caught this, handing the cookie jars just everybody else’s fault. You know, they’re just making stuff up.

[00:14:13] Sandie Morgan: So you just mentioned the victim and the, we talked about the damages paid. When will that money be available to the victim? I’ve been in this. For a long time, and I think I’ve won. We’ve got restitution ordered and then I find out that the survivor is still waiting. What’s the likelihood of that?

[00:14:42] Patrick McDonough: And so, so that is, so here’s the pros and the cons of, of a trial, right? The, the pros are you have an opportunity to really get what is just. And I think this, this verdict was just, and it’s obviously, sends a message. The downside to a trial is they always appeal it. Right? And so, you know, there’s gonna be an appeal.

[00:15:01] There’s also, in a case like this, there’s insurance involved and insurance is always trying to get out. So there’s separate appeals on the insurance trying to get out of the case. So there’s no guarantee. I mean, it could be they decide that they’re very nervous and they want to try to settle between that number and, and you know, that could happen in a month or this could drag on for years, that’s the one real risk of going to trial.

[00:15:25] And, and just as an example, I had that trial. I’m gonna get my dates wrong, but I wanna say the 21st of July, or maybe it was two weeks, it doesn’t matter. Whatever week we had that trial, it went for an entire week. I had another trial, not that Monday, but the following Monday, and it was separate trial and we felt really good about it.

[00:15:43] As good as this case, if not better, but they settled for $6 million and they said it wasn’t confidential and she’s gonna get her money in 30 days. You know, so it was less than 40 obviously, but it was, she felt like it was enough for her to raise her child. She wants to start a nonprofit. She’s gonna be able to give back in her own community.

[00:16:02] And so that’s kind of always the rub on trying a case, right? Is, is the money they’re offering upfront enough that it’s a burden in the hand? I’m absolutely getting paid. Verse, “Hey, I’m gonna go to trial and you’re gonna hear my story. But there’s a risk, right?” So there’s still risk that we, you don’t see a penny of it, quite frankly.

[00:16:19] I think we will. I think we tried a great case, but there’s always risks.

[00:16:23] Sandie Morgan: Wow. Okay. So let’s talk about your personal vision for legal reform and making a difference. I went online, I looked you up. You are very involved in your community. Talk about how that motivation came to be and how it informs how you serve as an attorney.

[00:16:53] Patrick McDonough: I think everybody really wants to give back in their community and I, I think mine started even earlier than the community I’m in now. I mean, I got outta law school and I was an assistant district attorney and then a district attorney, and one of the big things as a district attorney, we did is we created child advocacy centers because abused kids were always getting re-interviewed all these times and they didn’t have a safe place to go.

[00:17:14] This is a long time ago. They have a lot of those now, but it was kind of new back in the day. and so I think there’s just, you know, some pride in being able to work, but also besides work to be able to, to make a difference. when I came up to, you know, I’m in the suburbs of Atlanta and Gwinnett County.

[00:17:31] I was fortunate to join a law firm that really cared about community, and that’s one of the things that we kind of instill in our lawyers. And I was involved in United Way and some of the things that we did in United Way, I think they taught me. A lot about how we can do wraparound services. I got real involved kind of in the homeless population and it was, you know, not enough to just get someone off the street.

[00:17:51] It was like, how do we help make that person a, a productive person? And so that could be mental health, it could be drug treatment, it could be stable housing, you know, a lot of different things, job training. and so I think that kind of led into this practice, is, you know, kind of led me in to be able to do something that I cared about and was also my day job.

[00:18:09] I really feel blessed that I get to do both.

[00:18:11] Sandie Morgan: Oh yeah. I, I have that same feeling. I get to do prevention. My background early is pediatric nursing and being able to work with kids like we do here in Orange County is a big part of my passion, and I think more and more, and we’ve had conversations on this podcast about how people take, what drives them, what motivates them, and brings that to the table.

[00:18:46] In the anti-human trafficking movement, we are a movement that spans globally. And we need, I saw on your case, as I studied it, that you really had a multidisciplinary team, at the table for this case to support this survivor, to support your case, to teach the jury. And I think I want people to walk away from this and, after listening, to see that there is a place for everybody to do something.

[00:19:21] And you brought up United Way here in Orange County. We work a lot with United Way. So all of the nonprofits and the philanthropists, the social workers, the teachers, everybody has an opportunity to be part of this. Another group that has, An opportunity to be part of this are our policy makers and legislators. And I noticed in reading about you and this case that the TVPRA was a big part of the foundation of this. Can you talk about how that legislation contributed to the success of the case?

[00:20:15] Patrick McDonough: Yeah, there’s no question. I mean that this was a TVPRA case that was passed in 2008 and, and it has a, the beauty behind that statute is it has a 10 year statute of limitations and if you are a child that is trafficked, so anyone under 18, they have 10 years. Until they, after 18, so basically until they’re 28.

[00:20:35] And, from the legal side, what, what we see often is, you know, when someone gets rescued, the, the first thing they’re not thinking of is, oh, I need to call a lawyer. You know, if you’re in a car accident, you might decide, “Hey, I need to have a lawyer, right?” Or if you have a surgery and something goes wrong.

[00:20:51] People think about that, but certainly people that are trafficked don’t think like, Hey, one of my first things in trauma is I should call a lawyer about this hotel is it takes years, right? For them to kind of put their life back together where that would even register. And a lot of laws, the statute of limitations are just gone before they even realize they have a claim.

[00:21:11] I mean, it’s, it’s fairly new what we’re doing. I mean, a lot of lawyers don’t even know this is the case. It’s, it’s, it’s getting a little more attention with this verdict. And last year we had a pretty big case. but you know, we’ve been doing this for years and I meet lawyers all the time that don’t know about it.

[00:21:23] So certainly a lot of the survivors don’t. But anyway, the TVPRA has been the fundamental. Building block of all of our cases. And it has been a tremendous asset for us. It’s been great. It, it’s not perfect and different circuits view it and interpret it differently. Our 11th circuit where we are is a little more conservative than probably where you are at California.

[00:21:44] So it’s not perfect. I think it will end up at the Supreme Court one day and we’ll get more guidance from them. But it certainly allowed us to do things like we did with this, with this verdict. It’s tremendous.

[00:21:54] Sandie Morgan: Okay. That’s really helpful. And you mentioned California where we are and I, I went back and looked at a podcast we did quite a while ago for listeners, it’s number 187.

[00:22:02] And our city attorney in Los Angeles on and Rena actually, uh.had a civil case where they based, this on California’s nuisance abatement laws. And the, the focus much like yours is very victim centered and how we support restitution.

[00:22:35] And so the, it was, very interesting for me to compare those cases because both approaches, targeted complicity and failure to act. So the hotel involved in the Southern California case, where these kinds of cases were repeat hotspots for trafficking and the city intervened to force changes and to close those circumstances.

[00:23:10] And a nuisance abatement loss seems a little vague and unrelated, but whatever brings attention, because this is what I picked up from listening to you just now, hotel staff and the community need to understand the red flags and it may show up. As a red flag that, wow, look at all the cars in and outta here.

[00:23:39] This little hotel is right by my neighborhood, and that kind of traffic is, something I’m not happy with. I’m calling the police about it, so how do we educate our community Pat to understand when they see the red flags and how to call and report that if the hotel staff isn’t going to do that.

[00:24:04] Patrick McDonough: I mean, again, I sometimes it’s one of those cliches. But I say kind of it takes a village, right? Like, I’m proud, I have my little spot where we get to do these lawsuits and help survivors. But education is a huge part of this, right? And so there are really good organizations that do that. They’ll go into the schools, you know, into the medical community, train, law enforcement, anybody who’s willing to listen it, it’s definitely worthwhile.

[00:24:28] Just take your example. the hotel that, that we sued, there was probably a hundred maybe. I dunno. I, I have different hotels. I’ll say that there’s often 50 to 200 cars coming in and out that aren’t staying there. And what they’ll often tell you is there are these budget hotels off of an interstate, but you’re seeing like Jaguars and BMWs coming in and out, right?

[00:24:49] So if someone cares about that and they, and they see that and they call law enforcement, it may not be enough for law enforcement to make an arrest, but they can say, okay, we need to do surveillance and then they can surveil that, right? Or they could go interview the, the hotel owner. The people that are best empowered to do this are obviously the people that work at the hotel ’cause they live there or they work there full time and they see it.

[00:25:12] But if they’re not gonna do it, certainly getting law enforcement to try to do more things, you know, do more drive-throughs, to get local community to be educated. All of those things are great. And if you have someone who’s great is what you’re talking about in, in Los Angeles, you know civil law, I can only sue someone when a client contacts me and says I was trafficked there.

[00:25:32] law enforcement and district attorneys and other agencies can sometimes just target a hotel. ‘Cause they say, that’s so bad. That is a nuisance. Right? And they, they can do that. We can only target where our clients take us. So it it, it really takes, like I said, it takes a village, it takes everybody, but everybody can, can certainly, do their part.

[00:25:51] Sandie Morgan: So Pat, what kind of advice do you have for the hospitality industry as these kinds of cases are becoming more routine? You mentioned your case and then the next one that settled for 6 million a week later. What’s your advice?

[00:26:12] Patrick McDonough: Well, the hotels, what they need to know is if they’re gonna turn a blind eye, they can be held accountable. And I, and I’m hoping that that message is now getting across it is not really hard what they need to do. All they need to do is train their staff, right? Fairly easy. I mean, these brands certainly can set things up in their portals and they can do basic training and this is what you look for.

[00:26:34] And when you do that, you should notify, law enforcement. And again, the training’s not that difficult, but ultimately what it always comes from the top I’ve, I’ve talked to multiple front desk people and they say, “Hey, I’m working at this hotel”, and they tell me, I don’t care what it is. It could be a drug dealer or sex trafficker.

[00:26:51] Just rent the rooms, make the money. Same person making $12 an hour, goes down the road and works for a different hotel. And they say, if you see anything, you let me know immediately. And call law enforcement. So they just really have to make sure they want to do the right thing, that they aren’t trying to profit off this.

[00:27:08] Because it’s really not that hard to clean up. I mean, all you gotta do is really open your eyes, look at the cameras, occasionally walk around a bit, 50 men coming in and out, you know, in a couple hours. Cars coming that aren’t staying there at some point. It, it becomes obvious, right? So they just really wanting to do the right thing.

[00:27:24] But as far as like practical steps, I think training is the most important thing. They just to make sure that all their people, the cleaning staff, the maintenance people, the front desk people are all trained and empowered to do the right thing.

[00:27:38] Sandie Morgan: Wow. I love that. “Empowered to do the right thing” and it is top down Pat.

[00:27:45] I am really excited about the work that you’re doing there. I think the impact is going to be phenomenal as more and more we see more, cases and from my perspective, working with victims, that restitution is life changing and it validates the community’s value for an individual and their life that has been totally disrupted.

[00:28:17] So thank you so much for your time.

[00:28:20] I’m grateful for your leadership and your passion, and we will look for more success in the coming years. Thanks so much, Pat.

[00:28:31] Patrick McDonough: All right. Thanks so much.

[00:28:32] Sandie Morgan: Thanks to Patrick McDonough for sharing his groundbreaking case in changing Survivor Justice. His key insight really stuck with me. Hotels can’t hide behind, “we didn’t know”, when signs are obvious. Simple staff training can prevent trafficking hotspots. Watch for a future episode on how that is already happening.

[00:28:59] What gives me hope is Pat’s reminder. It truly takes a village whether you’re spotting unusual traffic patterns, supporting stronger laws like the TVPRA, or empowering hotel staff to do the right thing. Everyone has a role in prevention. Listeners, if you love this conversation, make sure you check out our website @endinghumantrafficking.org for tons of in-depth show notes and other resources.

[00:29:34] If you’d love to help us grow the podcast, you can start just by sharing this episode with someone and connecting with us on Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. I’ll be back.

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Debbie Deem joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss how transnational fraud predators are stealing billions from older adults and the intersection between financial crimes and human trafficking.

Debbie DeemDebbie Deem is a retired FBI victim specialist with over 40 years of experience serving crime victims. She’s currently an elder justice victim advocate, specializing in transnational fraud crimes and she serves as co-facilitator for the National Adult Protective Services Association Fraud Forum. She helped start the Victim Assistance Programs at the US Attorney’s Office in both San Francisco and Los Angeles, where in the early to mid-1990s she discovered what we now call human trafficking victims and was assisting those victims while also working with financial crime victims. After moving to the FBI in 2003, she began focusing on older victims of lottery, sweepstakes, and romance frauds, gravitating toward the most underserved victims throughout her career.

Key Points* Financial fraud against older adults is now the most common crime happening around the world, with $4.9 billion reported stolen from Americans 60 and older in 2024 alone, representing a 33% increase from the previous year. * The Federal Trade Commission estimates that close to $160 billion per year is stolen from all Americans due to fraud crimes, making this a massive underreported crisis. * Language matters when discussing fraud victims – using terms like “defrauded” instead of “scammed” helps maintain victim dignity and reduces blame, similar to how language evolved in human trafficking advocacy. * Common fraud types include romance frauds using stolen military or celebrity images, crypto investment frauds starting with innocent text messages, lottery/sweepstakes frauds, tech support impersonations, and phantom hacking where criminals impersonate bank security. * Victims experience trauma bonds and love bombing similar to human trafficking victims, making it extremely difficult to recognize they’re being manipulated even when red flags are present. * The neuroscience behind financial fraud shows that brain chemistry and excitement responses make these relationships feel authentic to victims, requiring neuropsychologists and medical professionals to help explain what’s happening. * System failures are widespread – in one case study, a victim lost $380,000 but police didn’t respond, banks didn’t file required Adult Protective Services reports, and victim services provided no meaningful support. * Crypto ATMs have become “fraud machines” found in gas stations and small stores, though California now limits transactions to $1,000 per day, causing criminals to evolve to using couriers and other methods. * Prevention strategies include not answering unknown phone calls, getting scam warning apps, sharing personal fraud experiences with family members rather than lecturing, and establishing trusted contacts on all financial accounts. * Revictimization occurs through recovery scams where criminals impersonate law enforcement agencies claiming they can help recover stolen funds, and through tax obligations on money withdrawn from retirement accounts even when it was stolen. * The crime creates long-term devastation including bankruptcy, homelessness, suicide ideation, and forcing elderly victims back into the workforce after losing life savings. * This field is where human trafficking advocacy was 20 years ago – needing widespread recognition, proper terminology, victim services, and systemic responses to address the crisis effectively.

Resources* Debbie deem * Neuroscience Behind Financial Scams: A DOJ elder initiative * Internet Crime Complaint Center – ic3.gov * National Elder Fraud Hotline

Transcript[00:00:00] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. I’m Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today’s guest represents a powerful intersection of federal law enforcement expertise and passionate victim advocacy.

[00:00:30] Debbie Deem is a retired FBI victim specialist with over 40 years of experience serving crime victims. She’s currently an elder justice victim advocate, specializing. Transnational fraud crimes and she serves as co-facilitator for the National Adult Protective Services Association Fraud Forum.

[00:01:01] Today we will discover how financial fraud predators are, stealing billions from older adults, 4.9 billion in 2024 alone. And why these crimes mirror the early days of human trafficking recognition. Debbie shares real case studies, including a devastating story of a $380,000 theft, and she reveals practical strategies that families can use to protect their loved ones from becoming targets.

[00:01:37] And now here’s our interview.

[00:01:39] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the ending Human Trafficking Podcast, Debbie Deem.

[00:01:45] Debbie Deem: Thank you very much. Looking forward to it.

[00:01:48] Sandie Morgan: I just love that we are having this conversation. I’ve known you for a couple decades and you’ve been deeply involved in combating human trafficking from the victim side, and today our conversation is going to talk about how transnational scam predators victimize. Our family members and what we can do about that. So I’m excited to have you on our show today, so Debbie, let’s first talk about how your career in the FBI impacted your understanding of victimization.

[00:02:37] Debbie Deem: Sandy, thank you again for having me. And I have to say that actually it was my first work, I was a victim specialist for the FBI, and I’ve been retired. I call myself unleashed for about the last six years, but even before that position, I helped start, The Victim Assistance Programs at the US Attorney’s Office, both in San Francisco and in Los Angeles.

[00:02:58] And it was actually there in their, actually their early to mid 1990s that I discovered both what we now call human trafficking victims, both in sex trafficking, With a domestic as well as an international trafficking, situation and was assisting those. But I also was required under the victim rights law to start notifying victims of all crimes.

[00:03:20] And that included financial crimes and identity theft, when we had cases that were going forward. So when I first became aware, it was actually both groups of victims that had been. Very underserved. Again, not even names for those crimes at that time. But I was obligated to find services that didn’t exist.

[00:03:39] I was obligated to inform them about their rights in the criminal justice system. Um, in some cases, with the traffic victims, they didn’t even speak english. So again, the variety of things, that I found in both situations actually started in the early to mid 1990s. And then when I moved to the FBI, in 2003, I was asked by agents to start visiting victims who, older victims who had been often contacted by phone and just the beginning days of the internet, because they had been defrauded.

[00:04:11] I, I try to use the word defrauded versus scammed. Because it just seems like it, it focuses more on the seriousness of the crime rather than putting any kind of blame on the victim, which oftentimes the word scam does. So what happened is that I was visiting, older victims of lottery or sweepstakes frauds, or the early romance frauds, and I’m seeing so many of these.

[00:04:33] Yet there was no one I could call or contact for help unless identity theft was involved because we did have the Identity Theft Resource Center at that time, and there was just nothing out there for these folks. And in my career, I’ve always gravitated towards the most underserved victims, whoever that was and kind of put my focus on that.

[00:04:51] then once people start addressing it, I move on to something else. And I was able to do that with human trafficking.

[00:04:58] Have a whole bunch of folks came and recognized that crime and great changes happened. So I moved on kind of to these financial fraud victims, especially older adults.

[00:05:08] And I’m still waiting kind of for the army to show up, but, that’s changing and they are showing up now, which is wonderful to be a part of that pioneering effort, that, you know, happened with human trafficking and I’m hopeful will happen with fraud victims.

[00:05:21] Sandie Morgan: Wow. And I really relate to this idea that you saw victims of crimes we didn’t even have names for.

[00:05:31] I often talk to people about my first victim of child sexual exploitation was a 14-year-old boy. I admitted at 2:00 AM before we had names for that crime. And as you grew into this, your focus on serving the victims really drove how you addressed it. And we will have links in the show notes, but you’ve written extensively on this, there is a lot of resource, to help us understand. And one of the works that you published is the neuroscience behind financial scams. A DOJ elder initiative, and this is really helpful for us to understand the science. Can you talk about what that means?

[00:06:36] Debbie Deem: I think you’re talking more about, it was a, a work that I did with Dr. Landy who was a neuropsychologist and he actually

[00:06:44] it was wonderful to partner with him because I think, again, this is a field where we need neuropsychologists, we need therapists, we need legal people, we need financial advisors, we need advocates, we need all kinds of folks.

[00:06:57] But what I think that kind of medical or a psychological perspective can give is some understanding of the human brain and just, What can happen, that excitement kind of thing that if we’re talking about a romance fraud, that excitement, that, that feeling that people get and when they’re in the throes of a new relationship and how real that can seem, even though, all the red flags are there, that this is not a authentic relationship.

[00:07:23] those things can be real. And a lot of the brain chemistry and things like that are so strong in helping people to. Believe that it’s a real thing and it makes it so difficult for them to stop because of that. so I think the work of neuropsychologists in kind of explaining what is going on with the human brain

[00:07:41] as well as in later issues with those older folks or people with disabilities that may not stop and what is happening to them. We certainly need people in that role that can be doing cognitive assessments. Helping with, issues if there does need to be temporary conservatorships or things like that.

[00:08:00] Sandie Morgan: Wow. Okay. So let’s look at what are some of those lesser known emotional or psychological effects that financial fraud can have on older victims?

[00:08:14] And I’m not using scam language. I’m learning from you, Debbie.

[00:08:20] Debbie Deem: That’s all right.

[00:08:20] Sandie Morgan: Yes. And, we’re gonna help our community move to conversations that maintain the dignity of the victims.

[00:08:30] Debbie Deem: Yeah. And, and let me address that real kind of quickly. for example, before I discuss what those emotional reactions can be and the, the trauma, the trauma reactions. This is actually probably the most common crime happening around the world. Is these kinds of transnational frauds. And I think that that is becoming true more and more as more and more countries are doing a better job at getting reports in and kind of looking at the issues and encouraging those who don’t report to come forward.

[00:09:00] the FBI reported that only on reported crimes, and again, we know most people do not report. What they found was that $4.9 billion was reported by those 60 and older who cared

[00:09:11] Sandie Morgan: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You just said 4.9 billion with a B.

[00:09:19] Debbie Deem: United States in 2024, even though we know most, and those are just the people that put their age in as being age 60 or older. that was up 33% from the year before. an average of $83,000 was stolen on average. The Federal Trade Commission estimated that the money stolen could be much more.

[00:09:40] And what they estimated that, probably, uh, close to $160 billion a year is stolen by everyone in the United States due to these kinds of fraud crimes.

[00:09:50] Sandie Morgan: Wow.

[00:09:52] Debbie Deem: So I wanted to mention that quickly, and perhaps also before we get into the emotional reactions, talking about the words, because much as the words that we used in human trafficking cases and that often implied victim blaming and shaming and, you know, why would she do that?

[00:10:08] Why would she fall for that? Why would she go with that man? all those kinds of things that as activists in the field, we’ve done a pretty good job of helping people understand that these are people that are victimized and they are not responsible for what happened, that they were manipulated into it.

[00:10:25] And we need to do that same kind of, I think, reframing of our language when we’re talking about these crimes because. Oftentimes the reason victims feel ashamed or feel like they’re to blame is because of the language they use. How could you have been duped for that? How could you be so stupid? How are, why are you so greedy?

[00:10:43] Those kind of words can really cut deep. to people going through something like this, and even the words that we used to talk about, the criminals, these are con artists, they’re con men. They’re, fraudsters. There’s, you know, scammers instead of being the fraud predators that we know they are, so again, I think changing that language can be so important.

[00:11:05] And helping to reframe the issue and to see that these are crime victims and these were are crimes that are being committed against them and often being re-victimized in it too. So I kind of wanted to get that in before we go into the reactions, but the normal kind of reactions because it always depends on the kind of.

[00:11:21] Transnational fraud crime that we’re talking about. But it’s, often again that sense of blame and shame, not wanting to report isolating themselves from others. Depression is very, very strong. The sense of distrust and betrayal, in almost every one of these where it’s been kind of a long con or they built trust, in the person that is defrauding them.

[00:11:44] There’s this strong emotional attachment to them. You know, we talk about the trauma bond when we’re talking about victims again in trafficking, that same trauma bond appears and love bombing in the cases of romances kinds of frauds. Those same kind of hooks into people are what these predators are doing to the victims.

[00:12:02] So all these kinds of things, that sense of betrayal when they realize that it wasn’t real. Having to grieve a relationship that doesn’t exist, in everybody else’s eyes, but is so real and authentic to that victims, are some of the common things that we see with people. And, and that sense of being re-victimized, because there’s, what are we doing to fill that hole that, that relationship

[00:12:23] or that sense of intimacy that, that, that that relationship presented for them. Whether it’s that chance to win the publisher’s clearing house, or whether it’s chance to, by investing in this big crypto investment fraud, investment opportunity through crypto, that’s gonna make all their dreams come true.

[00:12:40] Pay for their grandchild’s operation or college, all these things they’re gonna do with that money. when all of that collapses or someone comes along and says they’re gonna help ’em recover their money. They’re, they’re so willing to believe that that’s gonna be possible, that they get, you know, re-victimized.

[00:12:57] Sandie Morgan: So this, this progression of victimization and then revictimization. So let’s start, um, someone who’s gonna help them get their money back. And it’s just the next level in the fraud, right?

[00:13:16] Debbie Deem: And a big part of this is impersonations because, you know, what they might do is impersonate the bank. They might impersonate the FBI or Homeland Security, or Interpol or the United Nations. I’ve had, people say that they’re investigators from all of those, and that they’re going to, or the Federal Trade Commission or whatever agency it is, local police, and they’re gonna help that person recover their funds.

[00:13:39] Sandie Morgan: And so here’s the rest of us telling them this isn’t real. And yet there’s this authority figure telling them it is real and we’re gonna help you and we’re gonna make everything right. And of course, it’s very easy to wanna believe that. Okay, so let’s start step one, I am your victim and this is your first contact with me. How do you begin that conversation to help me understand, that I’m not stupid. I’m not, to blame for this. And what are my resources? What can I do?

[00:14:21] Debbie Deem: Well first, let’s talk about the, the main kinds of these transnational frauds, kind of what’s done first, because what I’m going to respond at might depend on what the crime is.

[00:14:31] And unlike, human trafficking and sexual assaults and all these kind of crimes, they basically follow the same basic scenario

[00:14:38] You know,they can be remote or they can be in real life. It can be someone, you know, it can be a stranger. With these kind of fraud crimes, the opportunities to defraud are limitless. One of the main sayings that we say now is that anybody can be defrauded. You’ll hear anybody can be scammed.

[00:14:56] I see people all the time shaking their head and saying, no, not me. I’m too smart for that. but we know that it can happen to anyone. there’s a New York Times story about a financial crime reporter, in her fifties that had over, I think $50,000 stolen. And at one point she thought she was helping the CIA in a transfer Amazon scam. So, um, again, these, these frauds can happen to anyone.

[00:15:20] What we mostly are seeing now, coming again outta the transnational nature of this, is we’re seeing a lot of the, the romance frauds where someone will impersonate, oftentimes they’ll steal an image from someone. |If it’s for women, oftentimes it’s men in the military, it’s doctors serving time, maybe doing doctors without borders.

[00:15:40] It might be an engineer on an oil rig, of course, which explains why he can’t come and visit. Oftentimes, uh, for both sexes, it’s a celebrity or a social influencer that they might have met. Just by liking something on a fan page.

[00:15:54] For men, oftentimes it’s these social influencers or pictures stolen from only fans or similar kinds of models that appear to be under 30.

[00:16:04] that kind of thing that they get involved in with emotionally. Again, all totally false relationships. It’s oftentimes also crypto investment frauds that might start with a text message. And that text message might be something flirty, even if you’re married and you might respond and say, sorry, you’ve got the wrong number.

[00:16:22] and then that person will respond and say, well, you seem really interesting. You know, if the text message was about golf, it’ll be, do you play golf? If it was about.

[00:16:29] Go get, get the pet washed at 10 o’clock. do you have a dog? so they’ll kind of try to entice you into keeping that conversation going and that leads to that crime that is sometimes called pig butchering, which I think you’ll discuss in the next podcast.

[00:16:43] But that’s where a basically a lot of the Victor, Victor. Done relationship, um, crypto relationship or romance investment frauds begin also lottery and sweepstake frauds. Those are huge right now as well. where people will impersonate mega millions or, publisher’s clearinghouse and tell that person that they’ve won that major lottery or sweepstakes, but they just have to pay taxes or pay for courier fees or insurance, where we know that it’s actually against the law to request money in advance.

[00:17:12] And that, anytime anybody is asking you by text or phone or email, whatever means that they want you to pay that money in advance, hang up the phone, disengage, because again, that’s not real. Tech support that is probably impacting older adults more than any other kind of crime where someone may impersonate.

[00:17:31] Um, maybe you get a buzzer or something, a pop up on your computer screen and it says big issues with your computer, big noises coming on, or maybe you’re looking for some kind of a tech help. Or maybe you get a call from someone that says that they’re Apple or that they’re Microsoft and there’s a problem with your computer.

[00:17:50] Oftentimes then you give remote access on one of those remote access devices. Apps that are on your phone or, and you give access to what’s on your computer to supposedly get it fixed. And instead what that fraud predator is doing is they’re getting access to your bank account, they’re getting access to perhaps other things that you have, on your computer and even taking control of it.

[00:18:12] This has moved into a new kind of fraud because we know that criminals are constantly evolving. It’s a crime that’s called sometimes phantom hacking, or also the term used might be a, a bank, security, imposter fraud, where someone impersonates a bank employee, uh, security person and tells you, they might say, uh, Dr. Sandy, it looks like that your account is being compromised. They may contact you over the phone.

[00:18:38] You know, I’m, I’m Debbie with, with “blank bank” and I’m letting you know that there’s a problem with your bank account. it looks like hackers are into your account. In, in one case, a victim was told there was 72 hackers accessing the information on that they’d find found child pornography on her account and that she needed to get it removed.

[00:18:59] She was told that she could not trust, the local bank because the FBI was investigating and they were in on it. So what she was required to do was to go to three different branches and pull out all of her life savings that she had in these banks and take that money out and put them into a crypto investment, a crypto ATM.

[00:19:17] And by doing that, it was a hundred dollars bills. This was back before the law changed, which I’ll mention in a minute. She put in a hundred dollars bills for two or three hours at a time. Different eight crypto ATM machines, thinking that she was putting the money in a federally reserved account.

[00:19:32] These fraud criminals had sent her emails with fake letters from the FBI fake letters from Social Security. She talked to somebody who was impersonated the FBI on the phone. All of them told her that this was real. She was in danger, her money was in danger, and she needed to take all these steps to protect it.

[00:19:51] She couldn’t tell anyone at all, that this was going on. This went on for a period of two weeks. In this situation, the last payment, she said, I can’t do this anymore. There was $80,000 left of her life savings. These fraud criminals arranged to get a courier. A younger person, definitely under age 18, showed up within two or three hours, no car in sight.

[00:20:14] Picked up the money that she had in a shoebox, wrapped up in foil with the last four digits of her social security number on the top of the box. Picked up that money he had asked for a code scan. The fraud criminals had said, we’ll give you this code, only he will know the code. She got the code from him, gave him the money, walked away, and she was out her $380,000 life savings.

[00:20:36] Now, what happened as a result of that and what often happens in these crimes?

[00:20:40] She contacted the police. The police didn’t even come out to take a report. The police did not come out and check ring doorbells because to me, this is possible human trafficking. If a child’s involved, who knows what’s going on with that, with that youth.

[00:20:54] The police never came out. I made an attempt to reach victim services in that county. No response from them as far as having an advocate come out when the bank was, the, the bank never filed an APS report. this is a standard thing they should have done with her taking out that amount of money.

[00:21:11] Sandie Morgan: what’s an a APS?

[00:21:13] Debbie Deem: Adult Protective Services and in the state of California and in most states, these are reportable crimes and banks are what they call mandated reporters. I think in 49 states where they are mandated to report any kind of fraud or exploitation involving a senior or somebody with serious disabilities to adult protective services, it’s almost like Child Protective Services, but they do the same kind of investigations and hopefully services and, and information.

[00:21:40] For someone victimized in this or any kind of exploitation, fraud, they did not even file that report. And to top it off, you know, the banks of course did, did nothing. And Adult Protective Services, when they did come out, just checked to make sure she had food in a refrigerator. And basically asked, you know, well, do you have enough money to live on?

[00:22:02] So this is, and I I mentioned this case because it’s so typical of the experience that these victims go through, there is no reporting of it there was no one telling her that she should also have reported. To a, a national database such as the Internet Crime Complaint Center or the Federal Trade Commission.

[00:22:19] We can talk about that later, so this is just that I use that example because it’s such a good one about the failure of our system responses no matter what the crime is.

[00:22:29] Sandie Morgan: Okay, so let me go back and ask for a little clarification. First of all, what is a crypto ATM?

[00:22:38] Debbie Deem: Crypto ATM, and I’m glad you mentioned that. they’re found all over the United States now, actually worldwide, and you probably can walk by, 10 of them within a two mile radius of your home and not even know they’re there. They’re often in like little delis or gas stations or smoke shops or uh, liquor stores.

[00:22:57] And you might walk right by them thinking that it’s just a regular ATM. But what it is, it’s, it’s actually a fraud machine because I’ve heard people, experts say that there’s really. No real reason to be using one of those unless it’s for fraud. So states are now involved in an effort to limit at least the amount that’s done.

[00:23:14] Some countries are, have actually banned them, but they’re often, it’s, what it means is you can put the money into that crypto. And it goes into some kind of a crypto exchange, where that criminal, that can, can then, or that person receiving it if it’s for honest reasons, although I don’t know what that would be.

[00:23:32] But that person receiving it then can take that money and it makes it very difficult to trace. And I think Erin will probably go into more details on that. But what happened in California? Luckily is back in 2023, our state legislator changed our laws so that these crypto ATMs now can only, are only authorized to allow up to $1,000 a day per machine.

[00:23:56] Sandie Morgan: Okay,

[00:23:57] Debbie Deem: So that has limited what happened to the woman I just described happened in like November of 2023. If that was later, she would’ve been limited to only 1000 rather than the 300,000 that she put in over a period of time.

[00:24:11] but other states have not done that yet, so as a result of passing that law,

[00:24:14] Because the law of unattended consequences in California, once the criminals realized that, money could not go through the crypto ATMs, they did two things. Number one, they got in touch with gangs and other people to be couriers to come out and pick up the money. In cash or in gold bars or one of these kind of ways, and there’s actually internet crime complaint center, FBI warnings that this is a common means now that’s being used or these moves to move to things like QR codes or justCash app and some of these peer-to-peer kind of payments involving crypto to bypass those ATMs.

[00:24:44] So the criminals are always evolving onto the next stage. When we put in protections, they’ll move on and find some new way using technology to, to defraud.

[00:24:59] Sandie Morgan: oh my goodness, this is so scary. Okay, so let me go back. This is a great case study and the fact that this is 2025, that was 2023, that is not that long ago. And to understand how far behind we are in the having protocols and prevention strategies laid out, this is significant. So four. A victim that is contacted through a text message, through a dm, a direct message on their social media, what can we say to people about how to prevent that from happening? Your, let’s say your great aunt Isabel. Is lonely and you go see her once a month, telling her not to engage with strangers is kind of like saying that to your 14-year-old who thinks I can take care of myself? Is this the same, basic scenario that we’re dealing with, with keeping our kids safe?

[00:26:17] Debbie Deem: It is. And, uh, before I, I wanna preface that, that first though, because we said these are, these frauds can impact anyone of any age. so they, the, these criminals would target the fraud depending on that age. So if you were one of those very young adults, or so maybe someone in their twenties, you’re gonna target them with, with job scams, you’re gonna target them with things like crimes leading to sextortion with the images of, the romantic interest.

[00:26:42] It’s gonna be like, products that you can buy online that aren’t real with the older adults. It’s the kind of crimes that I described and, and what we have to try to get those folks to do is, again, not to respond to, any phone call that they get. the FTC said that the fraud phone was still used in like 72% of frauds up until a, a couple years ago.

[00:27:04] So again, it’s not picking up that phone. Unless those people are in your contacts and it’s helping to train people to do that, but it’s also getting the apps, through Verizon or whatever the service carrier is that can do scam warnings and let people know that that’s a potential scam and people will be much more likely not to take that call if it says scam likely.

[00:27:24] So helping them to hook up with that kind of technology that can help with those things. I think also for any age, I think it might be, if I was talking to my great aunt, I might say, “gee, great Aunt Sarah, I had one of these strange messages, and it was about a toll road telling me that I had a fine, that I had to pay. Well, I don’t even have toll roads around where I live. You know, I, I read about these kinds of frauds and I think that’s what happening”, or “I got this strange message saying that my FedEx package hadn’t arrived yet, and I had to hit a link” on and personalize it that way from their own experience so that they’re sharing that information, but it’s not seen as a warning or a lecture on what not to do or that kind of thing.

[00:28:07] It’s more sharing of information in a kind and general way and saying, “Aunt Sarah, you know, let me know if this ever happens to you two. I wanna know, I’m trying to tell everybody I know about this” and I think Aunt Sarah will be much more likely to listen if she not feels she’s not being lectured at or treated differently because she’s older and may not be.

[00:28:25] as responsible or understanding of that fraud that’s happening. so I think that would be one suggestion that I would have. doing things like freezing credit, we always mention, you know, freezing your credit, if I had an Aunt Sarah and I was her only living relative, I would try to be a trusted contact.

[00:28:42] that’s something we’ve encouraged. Um, many states are following up with that. And what that means is that on any retirement account. Or any banking account, I would ask Aunt Sarah to make me her trusted contact. Even if she wasn’t ready to give me something like power of attorney, trusted contact would mean that the bank could be authorized to contact me.

[00:29:03] If Aunt Sarah starts doing anything like this poor woman did that was taking all of her money out at one or two days over a short period of time, that’s out of the ordinary of her normal pattern. and that way I could be contacted. I don’t have access to what’s in her account but it would allow the banks to contact me without that threat of being sued by Aunt Sarah.

[00:29:23] If they did try to reach out to me, knowing that I might be that Aunt Sarah might be in danger. And we encourage this for all family members to try to do. I try to get trusted contacts on anybody because something could happen at any age. So it’s always good to have someone that you could call real quickly.

[00:29:39] I have another situation of a woman, multimillion dollars stolen on a similar kind of crime. These are called phantom hacking, or again, the bank security impersonation fraud. In her case, it started as a tech support where there was a problem with her computer. It led to the same kind of issues. Over a period of, a couple months, she ended up believing she was working again with the FBI and other agencies.

[00:30:03] Took out life savings, took out all of her money to, so in these, to the so-called protected accounts, picked up by couriers, she purchased gold bars. All of this money went. And it wasn’t until her son was notified on one final account where he was listed as a trusted contact, and it finally gave that retirement account the ability to check in with her and say, “Hey mom, what’s going on?”

[00:30:28] And she of course, confessed everything that she had been involved with. But that was, several million dollars too late. And this is a woman in her seventies that now has to go back to work.

[00:30:39] Sandie Morgan: Wow.

[00:30:39] Debbie Deem: So these are the stories we’re seeing. Um, we’re seeing suicides, people that are, suicide ideation. I’ve known of three people just in my county. Are actually, homeless that have one is sleeping in a park right now. Another was living in his car, for a long, long time until he got into a shelter. So again, the impact of these crimes are horrific. People end up having to go to bankruptcy. Tax issues we did not mention, but that’s had this, I call these crimes, the crimes that keep taking because there can be tax issues if you took that money out.

[00:31:12] let’s say Sandy’s a been involved in one of these frauds. You take your money out of your, your, retirement accounts because you think this great crypto investment is gonna lead to all these great things happening, or you’re taking that money out to help your one true love so that he can come and live with you and he just needs money to help with his business.

[00:31:31] Take that money out and the IRS as well as, many states will tell you that you owe taxes on that money, and that’s money stolen, but you’re still having to be re-victimized by having to pay taxes on that stolen money. that’s not right. There’s been efforts in Congress to get that law changed, hasn’t happened yet there’s so many issues like that. Um, people trying to report things on, on things like social media where you report a fraudulent site and it doesn’t get taken down.

[00:32:00] Again, we’re in the beginning stages, right where human trafficking was in the early 2000’s

[00:32:04] Sandie Morgan: 20 years ago. That’s right. Yeah. Okay. So I expected our conversation today to be like taking the lid off my trash can and you kind of telling me what’s in this.But I feel more like we just dove into a dumpster. First, and there is so much more to explore

[00:32:23] And for listeners, in a coming episode, we’re going to be talking about the intersection with human trafficking where fraud stirs. are actually being trafficked to man, those phones and those computers in those direct messages, those texts, those phone calls.

[00:32:48] But we’re gonna save that for another episode, Debbie. Tell me what the best resource is for family members that wanna know how to protect their family, particularly those with any kind of issues of that are psychological that might make them more vulnerable, age related. What’s your favorite resource?

[00:33:21] Debbie Deem: Well, first I, I would hope everybody would you know, get the victim or help, help them, report it to the local police, as well as to the Internet Crime Complaint center @www.ic3.gov .

[00:33:34] And that’s run by the FBI. It’s a, a national, think of it as a library of complaints. So it doesn’t mean that anyone is gonna act on it.

[00:33:42] They get about 2,500 complaints a day. But it’s a library of complaints so that all of those complaints are seen by any sworn law enforcement officer in the United States, whether it’s a detective, whether it’s a postal inspector, an FBI agent. All different places that might be looking for leads on the same case.

[00:34:00] So reporting is is really critical. As soon as you can get the victim to do that, help them save their documentation and all that so that they can do that. But for resources, there are now, and these have only been here for a short time, there’s support groups, there’s national as well as local support groups that are establishing all the time.

[00:34:19] There’s four national ones and actually I can share those with you to put on.

[00:34:23] You’re resource information for people, one of those is fightcybercrime.org. They have great resources online that covers almost any situation of any kind of internet fraud, as well as action plans, what to do, and following up and a 10 week support group for victims.

[00:34:41] AARP has a wonderful one for a victim of any kind of fraud.As well as family members.

[00:34:44] Give an Hour is another one, and there’s a program out of New York, that is doing similar kind of things. So those support groups may be very important, but I think if I had only one resource, it would probably be the National Elder Fraud Hotline.

[00:34:57] And it’s actually sponsored by Congress and it’s run by the US Department of Justice. And it’s probably the single place that I would, encourage people to go to because they will actually help people file reports. They have advocates online that will help them through the whole process.

[00:35:13] So that would be my one source, that I would probably send people to.

[00:35:16] Sandie Morgan: Debbie Deem we are going to keep this conversation going. Thank you so much for your passion, your advocacy, and sharing your knowledge with us today.

[00:35:29] Debbie Deem: Thank you.

[00:35:29] Thanks to Debbie deem for sharing her decades of expertise and helping us understand how transnational fraud crimes are devastating families across America.

[00:35:42] If you have aging relatives, consider having that conversation about becoming their trusted contact on financial accounts. It’s one concrete step you can take today. if you loved this conversation, make sure you check out our website@endinghumantrafficking.org for tons of in-depth show notes and other resources.

[00:36:11] If you’d love to help us grow the podcast, you can start just by sharing this episode with someone and connecting with us on Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. I’ll be back in two weeks.

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Matthew Soerens joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss the intersection of immigration policy and human trafficking, exploring how vulnerable immigration status increases the risk of exploitation and trafficking.

Matthew SoerensMatthew Soerens is vice President of Advocacy and Policy at World Relief. He has dedicated his career to responding to the needs of immigrants and refugees through a biblical lens of justice and compassion. He also serves as national coordinator for the Evangelical Immigration table, and he co-authored Seeking Refuge on the shores of the Global Refugee Crisis.

Key Points* Human trafficking involves people forced to work under fraud or coercion, while smuggling refers to bringing someone across a border unlawfully – these terms are often conflated but represent different crimes that can sometimes overlap. * Migrants, refugees, and asylum seekers are particularly vulnerable to trafficking because they’re in unfamiliar cultural settings where they don’t know the rules, their rights, or the laws, making them less likely to report exploitation. * Current immigration enforcement approaches that create widespread fear in immigrant communities can inadvertently increase trafficking vulnerability by making people afraid to report crimes or seek help from law enforcement. * California Republican legislators recently wrote a letter asking for more discernment in immigration enforcement, focusing on those convicted of violent crimes rather than broad sweeps that detain people who haven’t committed crimes. * The U.S. immigration system’s complexity rivals tax law, with at least 18 different visa types, making it difficult for immigrants to understand their legal status, especially when policies change rapidly. * Recent policy changes have left many Afghans, Haitians, and Venezuelans without legal status overnight, despite having previously worked lawfully with valid documentation. * Employers who fail to file necessary visa extensions can create situations where workers become vulnerable to labor trafficking through coercion and threats of deportation. * The lack of immigrant visa pathways for non-highly skilled workers forces many into temporary status or unauthorized situations, creating dependency on employers that can lead to exploitation. * Unaccompanied children are among the most vulnerable to human trafficking, and recent legislation may undermine important protections established by the Trafficking Victims Protection Act. * Churches and community organizations can play a vital role by building relationships with immigrants, providing practical support, and advocating for policies that recognize human dignity while affirming the rule of law. * Biblical principles call for special concern for “the orphan, the widow, and the foreigner” – groups that remain vulnerable to trafficking today both in the U.S. and globally. * Effective anti-trafficking work requires understanding the connection between immigration vulnerability and trafficking risk, as many trafficking victims are immigrants who lack legal protections.

Resources* World Relief * 294 – Combatting Exploitative Child Labor in the U.S., with Matthew Soerens * Inalienable: How Marginalized Kingdom Voices Can Help Save the American Church by Matthew Soerens * Welcoming the Stranger by Matthew Soerens

Transcript[00:00:03] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, brought to you by Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode number 350. I am Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is a show where we help you study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking.

[00:00:29] Today we are joined by Matthew Sorens, vice President of Advocacy and Policy at World Relief. He has dedicated his career to responding to the needs of immigrants and refugees through a. Biblical lens of justice and compassion. He also serves as national coordinator for the Evangelical Immigration table, and he co-authored Seeking Refuge on the shores of the Global Refugee Crisis.

[00:01:06] Sandie Morgan: I’m really happy to Welcome back to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. Matthew Sorens, vice President of Advocacy and Policy at World Relief.

[00:01:19] Welcome back, Matthew. So glad

[00:01:20] Matthew Soerens: Yeah, so glad to be with you again, Sandie

[00:01:22] Sandie Morgan: we have a lot to talk about. First of all, tell us,briefly, what does world relief do,

[00:01:30] Matthew Soerens: World Relief is a global Christian humanitarian organization that,has existed for about 80 years. Our mission is to boldly engage the world’s greatest crises in partnership with the church. And, and right now as we look at. Crises around the world, we see displacement people being forced to flee from their homes and from their countries.

[00:01:48] In many cases, as really near the top of the list of global crises. It’s also a global crisis, of course, that intersects in many situations with challenges of human trafficking. So this is an issue we carry a great deal about both in the United States and around the world.

[00:02:03] Sandie Morgan: All right. And from the perspective of human trafficking, this is the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. There are several elements in our discussion today that we wanna clarify. First is the difference between smuggling and trafficking. Can you do that in 25 words?

[00:02:25] Matthew Soerens: Sure. I think so. I mean, trafficking under US law is when people are made to work under forced fraud or coercion, whether it’s sex trafficking or labor trafficking. Smuggling is when someone is brought across the border against the law. Now those things can be related. People who are smuggled could also be being trafficked, but they’re not the same thing.

[00:02:43] And I think the risk of. Conflating those terms is that we think of trafficking sometimes as something that happens at the border when actually trafficking can happen anywhere in the world, and it can happen to immigrants and sometimes they’re uniquely vulnerable. But it also can happen to American citizens.

[00:02:58] It can happen within a country. It can happen with people who are outside of their country. And I do think that distinction sometimes gets conflated in some of the political dialogue in some unhelpful ways.

[00:03:07] Sandie Morgan: All right. And,that’s really helpful for our listeners who live along the borders here in the US and beyond. I was in Madrid, in May, in Greece in February, and this issue of smuggling and trafficking being conflated is a. Constant challenge to overcome. Now, you mentioned the issues of fraud and coercion, and people in migrant status often have driving forces that increase their vulnerability. So can you talk about what that looks like right now from a global crisis perspective?

[00:03:52] Matthew Soerens: Yeah, I think one of the reasons we see that people who are migrant or refugees or asylum seekers, these various legal, statuses for people who have fled their homes. Are vulnerable to human trafficking is precisely that they are in a different cultural setting where they don’t know the rules, they don’t know their rights under the law, or what the laws are.

[00:04:11] In some cases, and depending on what their legal status in terms of migration is, that can create further reasons that they’re suspicious of law enforcement. So they may feel like they can’t report if they’re being forced or coerced. Into a work situation where they’re not being paid or they’re being paid less than they should or even into situations of, sexual trafficking.

[00:04:33] And so we often find that,immigrants of various kinds are uniquely vulnerable to situations of human trafficking. And the less legal protections that they have, wherever they happen to be, the more vulnerable they are, the less likely they are to speak up, to know that they can go and ask for help when they’re being mistreated and, and exploited.

[00:04:52] Sandie Morgan: I quit counting a long time ago. How many frontline service professionals like yourself have told me? Victims didn’t even know they were victims. They often felt like they made a poor decision. but because of their desperation, the risk element, we misunderstand that I am measuring risk. By sitting in my air conditioned home with two cars in the driveway. somebody else is measuring risk by, I don’t know how I’m going to feed my children or where we are going to sleep tonight. So,

[00:05:33] Matthew Soerens: And if I make you know, the wrong decision, do I end up in an even more vulnerable situation back in a country where I was being persecuted or where someone was out to get me? And those are the, the stresses that weigh on people in some cases as they assess what their options are.

[00:05:51] Sandie Morgan: Absolutely. Okay, so right now in the US we are reevaluating a lot of our immigration policies, and some of it has had unintended consequence. And so one of the things that happened just last week. Is from my state in California. Six of our Republican legislators wrote a letter to ask that we be a little more concerned about how we. Implementing some of those policies and I’ll put a link to the letter in our show notes. But Matthew, do you want to give us some background and your perspective on what this means moving forward?

[00:06:46] Matthew Soerens: Yeah, I was encouraged to see this letter. I think it’s responding to something that we’ve said at World Relief, which is we actually really want our federal government to have a little bit of discernment between. Making sure that our government is doing its job and protecting the American population by removing people with due process and fair treatment.

[00:07:03] But people who have been convicted of violent crimes, who present the public safety threat,including those who would be committing human trafficking. We want our government to go after those people and prosecute those crimes. And if convicted of course, and if they’re eligible to, to deport people who’ve been, who are foreign nationals at this.

[00:07:21] What we’ve seen though is that. As there’s been a big push towards deportations, most of the people who are being detained have not been convicted of violent crimes. In fact, it’s only a very small share of those who are detained right now who have been convicted of violent crimes. It’s,a minority who’ve been of those detained, who’ve been convicted of any crime at all.

[00:07:40] And what we’ve seen is a great deal of fear among people who have not been convicted of any crime,but who are concerned about deportation or being detained or separated from their family. And again, that goes to this dynamic of vulnerability that when people feel vulnerable, they don’t wanna talk to the police even when they’re victims of crimes like trafficking.

[00:07:59] and so these,lawmakers there in the state of California. Basically ask the federal government, to use some discernment like yes, to go after those convicted of violent crimes, but not to be so broad in their immigration raids and sweeps that they’re picking up people who have not committed crimes and have not been convicted of crimes.

[00:08:16] And that’s consistent with what we’ve found at world relief most Evangelical Christians want to see as well. We don’t want immigrant communities, we don’t want immigrant churches. To be filled with fear but of course we do want people who have actually, done harm and are a public safety threat to face justice.

[00:08:31] Sandie Morgan: So, one quote from the letter says, the fear is driving vital workers out of critical industries. Taking California’s affordability crisis and making it even worse for our constituents. Matthew, how do we communicate The value that the immigrant labor force brings to us

[00:08:59] Matthew Soerens: I mean, I think in California is sort of a case study of this, but it’s true across the country. The reality is if you eat. You are benefiting from immigrants because immigrants play an enormous role in the agricultural sector in the United States. And again, a lot of that actually comes out of California, but other states as well.

[00:09:16] if you live in a home, there’s a pretty good chance that there are immigrants involved in the construction industry in many parts of the United States. And many of those people have legal status, but frankly, some of them don’t. Some of them came many years ago,overstate of visa or crossed the border unlawfully at a time when that was.

[00:09:31] Fairly easy to do 20, 30 years ago. And what we’ve said at World Relief is we we’re not condoning that violation of an immigration law many years ago, but we also are acknowledging that we have actually benefited from those folks hard work and that many of them are brothers and sisters in Christ.

[00:09:48] And we think that rather than a, a massive sweep that. Removes people after 20, 30 years from the country and separates them from US-born children. Uh, there ought to be a way for them to make things right. You know, whether that’s paying a fine or whatever that legal process would be, that would allow them to get right with the law and then have the confidence to know.

[00:10:06] when they are victims of other kinds of crimes, that they can go to law enforcement, that they’re safe right now. There’s an, there is an incredible amount of fear. It’s having economic impacts, it’s making groceries cost more for everyone when agricultural workers don’t show up to the fields.

[00:10:19] it’s also,having a huge impact on the church. I mean, I had,dinner with friends who told me that their churches actually basically dissolved because it was a small Spanish speaking church and people are afraid to come and no one was showing up because of an atmosphere of fear. Right now in the community where I live.

[00:10:35] Sandie Morgan: Wow. So you mentioned, visa status and for a lot of people we just think, “oh, you have a visa, or you don’t,” and it’s very black and white. But just in a simple search. I found 18 different kinds of visas. Is there a way to package an understanding of the visas temporary green card path, all of those things during this simple podcast, Matthew?

[00:11:10] Matthew Soerens: Um, probably not. It is too complex to do in a simple podcast, but you, I think to even underscore that complexity, it is sort of an alphabet soup. There’s all different letters assigned to visas and there is as at least as many visas as there are letters of the alphabet. You have temporary visas, you have immigrant visas, which are to long-term live in a country.

[00:11:30] You also have temporary protected status, or symptoms as TPS, which is not technically a visa, but it’s under, it is a legal protection that Congress created and that the Department of Homeland Security can grant. And what we’re seeing right now is it can also withdraw. So you know this question of is this person here lawfully or not?

[00:11:48] Might seem like a simple question. When I worked as a legal counselor, some of my job was helping people figure out the answer to that question for their own situation. You know, because they had come in on this visa, they were trying to figure out how do I stay within the terms of this visa. I mean immigration law, this is maybe a helpful example, is similarly complex to tax law.

[00:12:06] And then you have people trying to understand it usually in a foreign language. And so you have people who are doing their best to do everything to comply with the law, who are sometimes not sure if they actually are complying with the law or they always have been complying with the law, and then a policy changes and suddenly they are here out of status.

[00:12:24] They’re unlawfully present literally with the stroke of a pen. Though they didn’t do anything, it’s just a policy change on them. We’ve seen this recently with a lot of Afghans and Haitians and Venezuelans and certain other nationalities who had, a temporary protected status or humanitarian parole protection that has been withdrawn and they went from working lawfully with a valid social security number to now they’re being told they can’t work lawfully and they’re being told to go back to their countries of origin.

[00:12:50] But if your country of origin is Afghanistan. For especially for example, if you came because you served the US military, or you came because you were a Christian, to go back to the Taliban in Afghanistan could be a death sentence.

[00:13:03] Sandie Morgan: Oh my goodness. And if you’re a girl, I mean this is the Global Center for Women and Justice, this is just unthinkable for women.

[00:13:12] Matthew Soerens: Unfortunately, there are few places in the world that’s terrible to be a girl as Afghanistan right now, and that is particularly why our government gave humanitarian parole to certain women and girls to come. But if we, then we as our governments have revoked that status and literally the letters that people have received are very stark.

[00:13:28] They say, “we will find you. If you do not self deport, you will face prosecution fines or deportation back to your country of origin.” And I mean, people are very much living in fear right now who are in that situation. Again, that’s Afghanistan. But it’s also, I mean, the situation in Haiti right now is a country where world relief operates and it’s a very stark,reality on the ground in Haiti.

[00:13:50] I mean, literally you have Haitians who have been told their temporary protective status is being withdrawn, they should self deport or their humanitarian parole has been withdrawn. To self deport would presumably mean book yourself a plane ticket. Well, the FAA tells American Airlines that they cannot fly to the Port of Prince Airport because it is too violent.

[00:14:07] So like this is the level of violence on the ground according to one part of our government. The State Department tells us citizens under no circumstance should travel to Haiti right now. And yet we’re telling literally hundreds of thousands of Hatians who came in lawfully through airports. Sponsored by family members or church groups that they need to return to their countries of or to their country of origin.

[00:14:28] And it’s a really stark situation. And then again, if they stay here outside of the law, they’re afraid of law enforcement in many cases. And that puts them in that vulnerability, where when an employer is not following the law, when they’re subjecting them to a situation that might even rise to the level of labor trafficking, they often feel that they can’t complain about that.

[00:14:49] Sandie Morgan: Which then that ends up being in a space where they become more vulnerable to coercion and having to do things that, under, not more than just simply a threat, but the cloud that they are living in. Other ways that people lose their status. I was on a call recently with, our embassy in Madrid, our students did a study abroad there in May, and so we did a, follow up zoom meeting and I got to meet with quite a few young people who had come here on a J one Visa. And some people had said to me, but what if they come and they stay? And if somebody overstays that visa, then that does put them out of status. And there are problems with that, but those visas are about building relationships that will go on. And our college students, our high school students report having relationships that eventually lead to opportunities for collaboration internationally. How many of your students, well you’re not teaching here, but I am. And my students go and get an international relations masters. They go into foreign affairs. So those experiences develop relationships that are necessary for our future as a nation. There are a lot of visas that are ways people exchange content, information, labor, short term, and I know that it can be complicated, but let’s just look at the categories for a minute.

[00:16:50] The first, there’s a visitor visa. And people get a visa to come. It’s not easy to get a visa to visit the US.

[00:16:59] Matthew Soerens: Not if you’re coming from what’s not a, a similarly wealthy country, so if you’re from Europe, it probably is easy if you’re from Australia or you know Japan. If you’re from basically anywhere in Africa or most of Latin America or any country where your earnings potential for an hour of work are way more than the United States than they would be in your country of origin.

[00:17:21] The presumption is that, of our government, is that you would overstay your visa for sort of rational economic reasons, and so you’ll be denied that towards Visa most of the time.

[00:17:31] Sandie Morgan: and I already talked about student and exchange visas, but what about the temporary work visa? This really came up in that letter from our California legislators. They want more H two Bs and so on. So what is that category?

[00:17:49] Matthew Soerens: Yeah, so temporary work visas are specific to agriculture, and H twos are often more, other sectors of the economy. the large majority of temporary work visas are either for agriculture or for highly skilled work. So for example, tech visas and then when you. For some folks that is exactly what they want.

[00:18:09] ’cause they want to come for a season, work in the United States, and then go back to their country of origin. I think one of the challenges of our immigration system, and this isn’t new, this is decades, decades old within the laws, that if our Congress hasn’t updated in many decades, is that. When you come to an immigrant visa, meaning a visa to actually come to the United States and live and work permanently, there are basically not a category for immigrant visas that are employer sponsored for those who are not classified as highly skilled.

[00:18:38] So if you are gonna come and do agricultural work, or you’re going to come and work in the back of a restaurant or work in construction. Maybe you could get a family based immigrant visa. Maybe you qualify because you fled persecution as a refugee, a very small number of people might win a lottery that is specific to individuals from certain countries, not Mexico, not some of the countries that send the most immigrants.

[00:18:58] But if you are primarily coming for work, which is actually a major reason that people want to come to the United States and you are gonna work in what’s not classified as a highly skilled role, you’re limited to those temporary work visas. Even those are very limited, and that’s what these law makers are, are speaking to there.

[00:19:14] There’s not enough of them. But then you have the challenge of there’s people who really want an immigrant visa because they want to come in and build their life in the United States, but that’s not available. Some of those people overstay their visas and,join that category of people who have no legal status.

[00:19:29] And again, I’m not condoning that, but I, I think we ought to recognize that a better system would say if we have a long-term labor need in the United States, why wouldn’t we have a process where that person could apply for an immigrant visa to stay lawfully when that is what they want to do and is what their employer wants them to do and, and actually meet the a labor need in the United States as well.

[00:19:49] And when they do that, then they have the same rights as an American citizen in terms of labor law. Whereas if they are dependent upon their employer for that visa, sometimes they are in in some vulnerable situation if the employer doesn’t happen to be scrupulous. And plenty of employers are very scrupulous, but not all of them are.

[00:20:07] Sandie Morgan: But let’s talk about that for just a minute. That, employer who’s not scrupulous, because this is a scenario that is connected to labor trafficking that I have heard over and over again. Where they didn’t file the necessary, meaning the corporation. the employer did not file the necessary extension ’cause they still need the labor.

[00:20:31] Now, the labor is out of status and vulnerable. Coercion becomes a way to underpay overwork, um, put their kids at risk as well. I’ve talked to teenage girls three or four times who were coerced because if you don’t do this, I’m going to report your father.

[00:20:55] Matthew Soerens: That’s right.

[00:20:56] Sandie Morgan: And so the connection to risk for and vulnerability to human trafficking is very real right here in my backyard.

[00:21:05] Matthew Soerens: Absolutely, and, and it is in probably uniquely in a place with a large number of immigrants like Southern California. But this is a dynamic that happens in rural parts of the United States with you wouldn’t realize how many immigrants are there on serving on farms, and meat packing. And again, I don’t want to cast a broad stroke ’cause there’s lots of really good employers who are treating their workers fairly and doing their best with a very dysfunctional system.

[00:21:27] But there are always going to be people who will take advantage of people who are vulnerable. and that is where we see these situations of labor trafficking arise. And it is why among victims of labor trafficking in the United States, there’s a lot of evidence that immigrants are disproportionately victims and in fact, unauthorized immigrants, those who’ve lost their status or who maybe never had status are uniquely, likely, to be victims in that situation.

[00:21:53] Now, some would say, well, the solution to that is likely let’s not have any immigrants. Actually we have a lot of labor needs that immigrants are, can play a key role in. I think the challenge is not that they’re immigrants, it’s that because of their legal vulnerabilities, they are uniquely vulnerable to trafficking.

[00:22:07] If they had the same rights to speak up if they’re being mistreated or exploited, that would largely resolve the challenge. And I think that’s what we’ve always advocated for at world Relief.

[00:22:17] Sandie Morgan: Wow. So we could spend, hours and hours in this space on visas, but. but we understand that. It may at times increase an entire family’s vulnerability to coercion and ultimately to some form of human trafficking. So Matthew, this is depressing and I need something to do about it.

[00:22:47] And I have people who call me and say, what can we do? And I think you have, opportunities for people to understand better, and we don’t even need to be experts on human rights. We just need to recognize the centrality of human dignity and I can do something for my fellow human being.

[00:23:13] Matthew Soerens: Yeah. I so appreciate that, Sandie. ’cause there are policies that are very dysfunctional and we can dwell on those all day and it’s important to be aware of them. We don’t help anyone, by ignoring the realities, but there’s also are ways that we can respond. some of that is at the local relational level, like get to know the immigrants in your community, not with the presumption that they’re all victims of trafficking ’cause they’re not, but when someone is in a hard spot, when you have a relationship where they feel safe to ask you, what can I do? It can be an incredibly important, way to serve. And then some of the challenges are systemic, and that’s the blessing of living in a democratic form of government, is we can speak into how those policies and systems work and to be really clear at world relief.

[00:23:55] We’re not. Partisan organization will never hear us saying, vote for Republicans or vote for Democrats, or, you know, that sort of thing. But we do wanna invite Republicans and Democrats and anyone else, in positions of authority to pursue policies that recognize the dignity of all human beings, um, rooted in that biblical principle, that affirmed the rule of law.

[00:24:16] And, one of the hard realities is that when the rule of law is not functioning well, people become vulnerable, that also affirmed the dignity and the unity of the family. there’s almost no one more vulnerable to human trafficking than a child who’s on their own. And that’s why laws like the Trafficking Victims Protection Act and the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act,rightly. Treat children who are on their own distinctly from other categories of people.

[00:24:3 Recognizing the unique vulnerabilities. And even now, there’s some concerns that I have with some of the legislation that’s passed recently that could undermine, some of those important laws, protections for unaccompanied children.

[00:24:50] But the way we do that is we reach out to our members of Congress, who are US representatives to our senators at the state level as well, to legislators. and we try world relief and we work with partners, through the evangelical immigration table to. Point people to resources to make it very easy to advocate.

[00:25:05] Uh, people can do their own homework on what, policies they wanna support. But,we try to really stay on top of what’s being proposed in Washington and look at these policy proposals from a human dignity perspective. It’s doesn’t start with one party or the other, but starts with the presumption that all people are made in the image of God.

[00:25:21] And, There’s no perfect legislation, but we really think that our country can do better with a particular concern for those who are vulnerable. And, in the scriptures, which are our motivation at world relief, it’s the orphan, the widow, and the foreigner, which happen to be groups of people who today are still vulnerable and vulnerable to some of these dynamics of human trafficking that unfortunately are very real reality in the United States and around the world.

[00:25:41] I mean, when I say that migrants are uniquely vulnerable. I don’t just meet in the United States. I mean, it’s the central American migrant making their way through Mexico trying to find a safe place to be who was often at the most risk without legal protection and we see that in various parts of the world, unfortunately.

[00:25:57]Sandie Morgan: So how do you suggest that we contribute to changing the conversation?

[00:26:16] Matthew Soerens: You know, one thing that we’re really passionate about at World Relief, I know you’ve got listeners across a lot broad spectrum of backgrounds, but we are really focused on the church and how do we help the church to be a part of responding to these dynamics? And a, a major starting point there is just talking about the realities of people who are vulnerable from a biblical perspective.

[00:26:26] I think I grew up in a wonderful church. I’m really thankful for the church that I grew up in. It taught me to love the Bible, but somehow I spent the first half of my life in church and yet I missed that. The Bible spoke to concerns of immigration, even though the Bible actually has so much to say on that topic.

[00:26:41] But it just somehow, it didn’t seem like a central focus or something that I realized had a connection to my everyday life, and I think that’s a place, you know, in churches. To start with a discipleship process of how do we think about these issues in ways that are rooted in, not in one political party’s perspective or the other ’cause that’s the, the policies matter.

[00:27:02] But if we start with partisanship on one side or the other, we’re, we’re not starting in the right place, but starting with God’s word, which in the very beginning starts with people being made in the image of God. And you know, what we’ve seen over decades at World Relief is that people who are trying to live out their faith.

[00:27:17] And loving their neighbors, they can play such a vital role in being in relationship with people who have been in vulnerable situations and may still be in vulnerable situations. That’s, I think for me, what gives me a lot of hope is I see more and more churches leaning into that conversation and saying, what can we do in the midst of a tense time in our country to actually love our neighbors in practical ways?

[00:27:38] Sandie Morgan: I think I’m going to recommend to some of our small group leaders that they listen to this podcast and not to find answers, but to begin to formulate their own questions and what it looks like in their community. I talk to one of our adjunct professors this week. As the holiday, I live in Santa Ana, which has a very high Hispanic population. Our federal building is less than two miles from my front door where we have National Guard presence that makes holiday times a little different than we’ve had in the past. And one of the concerns that the letter. That we talked about brings up is people being afraid to go out. And so we know they’re not going to work, they’re not getting paid, and now how do they feed their family?

[00:28:38] And so the food bank, other nonprofits, the civil society organization, the churches, they all step up and they have bags of food ready and no one comes. So we change how we do that and we go pick it up and we take it to them right where they are. I want people to start looking, in your neighborhood to find out who is doing this well from the perspective of caring for your neighbor, whether they are foreigners, orphans and widows unaccompanied children.

[00:29:20] I love that you say unaccompanied children instead of minors. They’re not just a number, and they are found in labor trafficking situations, 20 minutes from my house, trimming boneless chicken breasts and things like that. So this is part of our community, not just in wealthy California, but across our nation. Matthew, final remarks from you. What do you want us to remember about this conversation?

[00:29:59] Matthew Soerens: Yeah. You know, I so value this conversation, Sandie, and I think there’s so many people who are appropriately really passionate about combating human trafficking and I think that’s so vital that people of all backgrounds, but especially again, I think the church needs to lead on that. I think sometimes we’ve missed how connected that issue of trafficking is to the vulnerability of immigration.

[00:30:20] And it just doesn’t, it’s incoherent to say I’m passionate about helping people be free from human trafficking, but I hate immigrants. Like, that doesn’t make any sense because so often the people you’re talking about who are victims of human trafficking are immigrants. you know, and again, for a Christian, our faith compels us to love our neighbor.

[00:30:39] And not only the neighbors who have always followed the law perfectly, which would be probably none of us. but, All people who are made in God’s image. And that doesn’t mean that we can’t find better, that there’s not a place for government to do its job as well. We can affirm that. But even in that, to ask our government to treat people humanely, to use discernment as these lawmakers in California are asking that there’s a difference between someone who’s committed a violent crime and someone who’s only illegal offense was they overstayed a visa 40 years ago.

[00:31:04] Uh, we can treat people. Take into account those different circumstances. Maybe a fine is appropriate Foraying a Visa 40 years ago, whereas, you know, detention is appropriate for someone who, who’s a public safety threat.

[00:31:17] Sandie Morgan: So, point is to some resources.

[00:31:22] Matthew Soerens: Yeah. You know, we’ve done a lot at World Relief to really equip everyday citizens, but also churches to think about these issues, in both fact-based ways. And for those of us who are following Jesus in biblically informed ways. So worldrelief.org, we have a whole bunch of resources for pastors, for lay people, and then opportunities to volunteer with refugees and immigrants in various communities around the United States, and to provide financial support to those who are doing this work as well

[00:31:44] I think is especially important right now at a time when there’s been,a lot less in terms of governmental support,for vulnerable immigrants and to do so around the world as well. Because again, these are not just US dynamics, these are global dynamics.

[00:31:58] Sandie Morgan: I appreciate that so much. I also, because I’ve spent time working with world relief, I recognize and value how it doesn’t matter where someone’s faith tradition is, they get the same kind of support that is appropriate to their faith tradition. And that is an element for all of us to emulate as we recognize human dignity.

[00:32:29] Matthew Soerens: Yes, absolutely. We are Christians. That’s what motivates us at World relief. But we serve people across a broad range of backgrounds. Those who share may share our faith. Those who come from a different religious tradition, and we believe they’re every one of them made an image of God and a neighbor whom we’re called to love.

[00:32:42] Sandie Morgan: We have enjoyed this conversation very much and it won’t be our last, we’ll put a link to the last time we had a conversation a couple years ago and we’ll make sure that we put you on the roster for when we move to YouTube soon. So thank you so much, Matthew.

[00:33:01] Matthew Soerens: Thanks, Sandie. Appreciate all the great work that you all do.

[00:33:04] Sandie Morgan: Thanks.

[00:33:04] Listeners, thank you for joining this important conversation. If you want to hear more from Matthew, be sure to check out the show notes @endinghumantrafficking.org. We’ve included a link to his book as well as his. Previous episode on our podcast. If you haven’t visited our site before, be sure to subscribe.

[00:33:30] That will keep you up to date on all of our episodes. And one more thing, will you help us grow? Join us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. And if you know someone who would benefit from today’s conversation, invite them to subscribe and join us in learning how to be part of ending modern day slavery and human trafficking.

[00:33:57] Thank you for listening. I’ll be back in two weeks.

Welcoming the Stranger: Justice, Compassion & Truth in the Immigration Debate

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Eleanor Kennelly Gaetan joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss the critical need for legislative reform to combat online sexual exploitation, focusing on Section 230 immunity and emerging laws like the Take It Down Act.

Eleanor Kennelly GaetanEleanor Kennelly Gaetan is director of public policy at the National Center on Sexual Exploitation in Washington DC. She has been an advocate for stronger laws to fight sexual exploitation and has had a role in passing key anti-trafficking laws like the Justice for Victims of Trafficking Act and SESTA-FOSTA, which changed Section 230 to hold tech platforms more accountable for their role in enabling sex trafficking.

Key Points* Human trafficking was only identified as a crime in the year 2000 with the passage of the Trafficking Victims Protection Act, making it a relatively new field where small movements have achieved significant progress. * Eleanor witnessed firsthand in Romania how young women were lured abroad with false promises of legitimate work, only to be trafficked into commercial sexual exploitation, highlighting the critical need for proper victim services rather than detention centers. * The Take It Down Act represents a crucial breakthrough by criminalizing the uploading of non-consensual sexually explicit material for the first time and requiring platforms to provide real human help desks for removal requests within 48 hours. * Image-based sexual abuse creates ongoing trauma for victims because unlike other trafficking incidents that end, having images online means “you’re being raped and it’s online and you can’t get it down,” creating continuous retraumatization. * Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, passed in 1996 when the internet was nascent, provides broad immunity to internet service providers and has been interpreted by courts as creating a “wall of immunity” for social media platforms. * The case against Twitter involving 13-year-old boys demonstrates how platforms monetize child exploitation material through advertising revenue while claiming Section 230 immunity protects them from liability. * California’s Age Appropriate Design Code represents one approach to reform by requiring companies to test products for age appropriateness before launch, using product liability law to sidestep Section 230 immunity issues. * Meta tracks children’s negative emotions and targets vulnerable youth with harmful content, including targeting kids who fear being “too fat” with eating disorder material, showing the deliberate exploitation of minors. * Bipartisan support exists for reform, with both Democratic and Republican senators preparing to introduce a bill to repeal Section 230, recognizing that tech companies are not policing themselves effectively. * The Social Media Victims Law Center currently represents over 4,000 families whose children have been harmed or killed due to social media platform irresponsibility enabled by Section 230 immunity. * Congressional education on online harms has accelerated with over 24 briefings since 2019, positioning the current Congress as potentially the most informed ever on these issues. * Federal guidance on best practices remains insufficient, with some jurisdictions like San Diego developing excellent collaborative models while others lack functional systems for moving victims into services.

Resources* Social Media Victims Law Center – Social Media Litigation Lawyers * Can’t Look Away: The Case Against Social Media * CDA230

Transcript[00:00:00] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, brought to you by Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. I’m Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is a show where we equip you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in the fight to end human trafficking right where you are.

[00:00:23] Today, I’m honored to welcome Dr. Eleanor Gaetan to the show. She’s director of. Public policy at the National Center on Sexual Exploitation that’s in Washington DC. She has been an advocate for stronger laws to fight sexual exploitation and has had a role in passing key anti-trafficking laws. Like the Justice for Victims of Trafficking Act and Cesta Fossa, which changed Section 230 to hold tech platforms more accountable for their role in enabling sex trafficking.

[00:01:07] sandie: Eleanor, we have been in the same movement for decades, and it is exciting to see how some of our long held dreams have come to fruition.

[00:01:21] And one of mine has been to have you on this podcast.

[00:01:24] 349-guest: Oh, professor Morgan, thank you so much. It’s really a delight to join the coast. I’m speaking to you from Washington DC I know you’re there in California, and we together embrace all the advocates in between.

[00:01:36] 349-sandie: Well, and for our listeners who have been long time subscribers, my former podcast intern, I Dallas.

[00:01:46] she’s working with Dr. Gataen. So I, it was like full circle, the both coasts, all of us hands held together in this work. It is hard work. It takes dedication and long-term determination. Some people might even say we’re a bit stubborn.

[00:02:09] Dr. Gaetan: Certainly stubborn have to be persistent and stubborn. But the great thing about the field of human trafficking and the, you know, this was only identified as a crime in the year 2000. So let’s recall that, that, that there wasn’t a name for human trafficking. until 22, the year 2000, and the Trafficking Victims Protection Act.

[00:02:27] So it’s a relatively new field and yet the advance, the progress has been as a result of human champions and a few, you know, it’s a small movement that has mountains.

[00:02:42] Sandie: and you were instrumental in passing the first Trafficking Victims Protection Act here in the us. Tell me about that.

[00:02:51] guest: So I worked for U-S-A-I-D in Romania, and Romania was an example of a country where when the. When communism ended in 1989, 1990, people had been trapped in their countries. People were desperate to travel, and they lost a lot of jobs, and so people really needed work and they were seeking work abroad.

[00:03:11] So young women were especially vulnerable to those promises of a babysitting job or a waitressing job, or an elder care job. Around Western Europe and around the world. and so vulnerable to the, the promises of traffickers. So we witnessed in Romania and Moldova entire villages of young women being being lured abroad, and so many of them abused badly in both legal brothels and illegal prostitution around, around the world.

[00:03:39] I mean, the US government was supporting a, a trafficking shelter in Romania and Bucharest that I was helping to manage as a democracy officer. And it was shocking to me that it wasn’t, it wasn’t a, a shelter, it was a detention center. So women were being abused in, say, legal brothels in Germany were arrested, repatriated to their home country.

[00:04:01] There’s 20 years old, they come back with nothing and then they’re put in virtually like a prison cell and told they’re supposed to stay in this shelter, but it’s a detention center. And of course they ran away. So I was witnessing the lack, complete lack of services to help people who had been traumatized at a young age in the sex trade, in the commercial sex trade around the world.

[00:04:23] Sandie: Wow. And I was in Athens, Greece at that time, and we saw the recidivism as the girls that were quote on quote rescued, just came back to us from Romania, from Moldova.I see their faces even as we’re talking right now.

[00:04:38] 349-guest: But to answer your question, it was all those stories from people like you in Greece and me in Bucharest feeding into Washington. So Congress was hearing from both feminist and faith-based organizations about this terrible crime that really takes advantage of the hopes and dreams of youth. I mean boys too, as we know, but mainly women and girls.

[00:05:04] And Congress was hearing that and became a bipartisan effort to exert US leadership to end this crime, define it and end it. But at the beginning, it as you well know, professor Morgan, it really wasn’t international crime. And yet the US didn’t look at itself and say, to what extent do we have human trafficking, both sex trafficking, labor trafficking happening in our own country?

[00:05:27] That came a little later. with iterations of the Trafficking Victims Protection Act, but, but it really was the sources Americans abroad reporting on what they were seeing, what you and I were seeing around the world that caused the, the passage of TVPA.

[00:05:42] 349-sandie: Eventually that led to the ripple effect of similar legislation in dozens of countries and eventually over 150 and our US. community there in Athens, Greece was very much a part of eventually getting the Greek version passed before the Olympics arrived in 2004. And this really brings up how important legislation and policy is in our movement.

[00:06:20] I know a lot of my students, their dream is I’m gonna go and rescue girls. I’m gonna go and start a shelter, things like that. But. The work that William Wilberforce did is a model that I have stuck to in my career of trying to bring together thought leaders and policy implementers. Tell me why policy is critical?

[00:06:54] 349-guest: So we’ve just discussed really a great example in which, in, in human trafficking had to be defined legally before you could create a framework for both preventing the crime and prosecuting the criminals and helping the victims. Until we had that law. We didn’t have a framework of reference in order to both prevent it and help those who suffer from the crime.

[00:07:20] So policy is crucial to, making operational prevention efforts, protection efforts, prosecution efforts. And what has happened though is that with the internet trafficking is a great example. A perversely excellent example of how a crime changes as it moves online. It’s even more devastating today, the way people are groomed online, and then it moves into real life.

[00:07:51] But, but the internet has been, ruinous for many people who’ve fallen into the clutches of predators, and we don’t have sufficient legal response to online trafficking.

[00:08:06] 349-sandie: Well, in my world here, there was great celebration when Congress passed the Take It Down Act and I felt like people sort of set their tools down and said, ah, now we can, we can. We’re done. But that’s not the case, we still have to fight the battle on the new frontline, which is online, on the internet, where some folks, estimate 80% of recruiting happens.

[00:08:43] The stories of Sextortion are heartbreaking and must be addressed. So tell me what else we need to do besides the Take It Down Act

[00:08:58] 349-guest: Wonderful. So the Take It Down. Act was so crucial because it criminalizes for the first time the uploading of non-consensual sexually explicit material, and this was absolutely ruining lives, right? So cases of I’m, I’m friendly with a woman who had no idea that her boyfriend took pictures of them involved in sexual relations.

[00:09:22] She thought it was just happening in one room, and instead he made recordings. She had just turned 18. He posts them on PornHub, and in fact, only years later she gets a call from a high school friend and said, you know, I think you’re on PornHub.

[00:09:40] And she looks at that. She looks, looks it up. And indeed it is from, a, a moment that she thought was private and it’s online.

[00:09:50] It immediately triggered in her so much anxiety and upset. She tried to contact PornHub. There’s no human being you can reach to get material like that down. This is called image-based sexual abuse. And it wasn’t a federal crime until Take it Down Act. So. Now it’s a federal crime and also the the bill, the the legislation requires digital platforms to have a real life help desk.

[00:10:18] Where you can go and say, this is not consensual. Take it down. And the platform is required within 48 hours to take it down. Now this will remind you probably of copyright law, if I post three minutes of Beauty and the Beast on YouTube, it is immediately taken down because copyright law is so embedded in our legal framework in the United States, and you cannot just rip off some Disney film and post it as your own.

[00:10:44] little personal snippet on YouTube, but the same coverage didn’t help individuals who had their images posted on into the public. And of course, this, this friend of mine had that material circulated internationally. It showed up on 45 websites. There’s no way to take it down once it gets really viral and out in the world.

[00:11:05] so Post-traumatic stress disorder is common, losing jobs or relationships, it can be ruinous.

[00:11:15] Eleanor Gaetan: And interviewing, women who’ve suffered image-based sexual abuse really underscores the fact that it feels like an ongoing trauma. So. You can have a trafficking incident.

[00:11:26] It happened to you. You were violated by a predator. You had a horrible experience. It’s in the past and you go through a healing process, but when images are up online, you’re being raped and it’s online and you can’t get it down. You feel? You experience that as ongoing, ongoing sexual assault. So that’s why it’s, it was especially crucial for a utterly bipartisan bill.

[00:11:49] 349-guest: It was introduced a year ago by Senator Ted Cruz in Texas because teenagers who were victims of deep fakes take it down, act all. So includes AI generated deep fakes. So these young, these teens in a high school in Texas had images made of them by another high school, a a male in, in their high school.

[00:12:09] They couldn’t get it down. And they went to Senator Cruz and he was really moved by their personal story. And that’s where, that’s the origin of the, of the bill.

[00:12:19] 349-sandie: Wow. Okay, so what’s the next

[00:12:22] 349-guest: step, right? So that’s criminal, that criminalizes, image-based sexual abuse. But there’s another bill pending called the Defiance Act. And that, it targets the acts of uploaders, but it provides a civil right of action. So victims have a path to justice and can sue, sue those who commit this crime?

[00:12:45] In US law, of course, having a criminal component and a civil component really helped amplify the weight of the law and, and start to, you know, people need to be convinced they really shouldn’t do this. But if you suffer, no consequences, the criminality increases.

[00:13:04] 349-sandie: and for the victim, sending someone to prison does have a sense of justice, but also the element of restitution that is afforded more in our civil approach

[00:13:21] 349-guest: exactly.

[00:13:22] 349-sandie: so significant.

[00:13:24] So tell us about the Defiance Act.

[00:13:27] 349-guest: Well, defiance Act is fascinating because we have, like Senator Durbin from Illinois, a Democrat, very, very, excellent leader in this field. And Senator Graham, a Republican from South Carolina. Again, we’re protecting that bipartisanship on the house side. Uh, representative Ocasio-Cortez is, is the a, a lead sponsor together with.

[00:13:49] Uh, Lauren Lee, representative Lee is a Republican from Florida. This is so important to our movement. You know, party label is irrelevant when this horrible thing happens to you. Image-based sexual abuse or human trafficking, doesn’t matter what your politics are. So we’ve worked really hard on Capitol Hill.

[00:14:09] Um, ZI will only support bills that are. That have both Democrats and Republicans in support. So defiance is, is got that civil piece. So does a, a bill that, Senator Blackburn from Tennessee and Senator Coons from Delaware, uh, propose no fakes act. Now this goes to the problem of the, that the music industry has identified that voice likenesses can be AI generated voice likenesses can.

[00:14:38] Be projected on the internet and people don’t know the difference between, like this, this country singer was testifying, McBride, country, country Music Star testified with Cozzy’s lawyer Kristen Price. And but it also allowsAn individual who suffers from image-based sexual abuse to sue for damages.

[00:15:00] So there are a few approaches, to the image-based sexual abuse problem, but we need, it’s like, think of car safety. We need seat belts, we need airbags. We need speed limits. We need driver’s licenses, all of the above in order to protect people who are riding in cars Well. The internet has been the Wild West.

[00:15:21] There have been no restrictions on the internet. For a, for a policy explanation, I can provide a policy explanation for why the internet is so dangerous, especially to our youth. And so also addressing the fact that the internet is an utterly unregulated market. Now, I personally am a small government person.

[00:15:40] I think we should have a limited government. However, it is fundamental American jurisprudence, this idea of liability. If you harm another person, you should be liable. That is one of the reasons we walk into a Walmart or a, or a Target, and there’s no puddles on any floor. ’cause those, stores are highly aware of liability for if somebody slips and falls in that store, they will be sued.

[00:16:06] And individuals get big settlements right from, from slipping and falling. Right? It’s, it is the job of that store to maintain health and safety for those who walk into it,

[00:16:17] So we don’t have similar jurisprudence on, well, we don’t have correct laws to protect people online that we do to protect people in the bricks and mortar reality of three-dimensional world.

[00:16:31] And that is, is the frontier in which people like me work on policy. That is our most important frontier right now is to protect people online.

[00:16:41] 349-sandie: So, I remember the first time somebody really made me stop and think about this a long, this is a long time ago, Ernie Allen, and he started including me in letters to attorneys general about Section 230.

[00:17:00] So if you’re one of my students and you’re like, what, what? just look up section 230, do a lit review, but let’s get in a capsule. What is section 230 and why is it like a cornerstone in this battle?

[00:17:20] 349-guest: Excellent question. So it’s the section 230 is one provision of a bill called the Communications Decency Act. It was passed in 1996 when the internet was a baby, and Congress wanted to benefit this promising reality of the internet and the worldwide web. And so there had been some cases where, one of the early, like MySpace or an AOL, it, it, it’s a, one of the early manifestations of the internet.

[00:17:50] there was concern that how on earth could the internet company, which is really just a highway for information, how could it be held liable for activities? By those posting. Right. So it’s, it’s almost like saying the highway isn’t responsible for a drunk driver. Because that drunk driver is in a car going down the highway, just using the highway as, as a a, a transit, a method for transportation.

[00:18:16] And with that idea of the internet as a big neutral highway. The CDA, the Communications Decency Act included few provisions, that were like Good Samaritan provisions saying, you know, the, the, the internet service providers, the ISPs could not be held liable for what, what was being posted and what was happening online, because they aren’t publishers, you know, they’re, they’re just like a highway for information.

[00:18:45] Okay. That bill was actually gutted by the Supreme Court around some First Amendment, questions. But what stood was the provisions known as CDA 230, which said, the internet service providers cannot be held responsible for what is being posted by the content that is being posted online.

[00:19:04] Right? That’s all protected by the First Amendment. But fast forward to today and so many courts interpreted those provisions as providing like a wall of immunity, an entire wall of immunity for these, social media platforms and an internet service providers. So we have a case, lemme give you an example.

[00:19:27] Let’s look at an example. We have a case against Twitter. Now it’s called X, but the case occurred when it was Twitter. Two boys, 13 year olds. They think they’re talking to a 16-year-old, and it’s Snapchat. It’s not a 16-year-old girl. She keeps asking them to do various sexual acts, including acts with each other, and when she wants to meet them, they block her.

[00:19:53] Two years later, so they’re 16. All those images and the boys of course thought it was disappearing. Right. Snap is a, is a platform where people think the, the images disappear. That Predator had made a video of all those separate images and it was child pornography. These were young teens, 13-year-old boys engaged in sexual activity that is by definition, child pornography.

[00:20:18] It was posted on Twitter, it was circulating on Twitter, and thank God somebody called the mom of one of the boys and said, your son is up in his room talking about taking his own life. Because he’s so mortified that these images of him full, fully unclothed are circulated at our high school. Mom intervened.

[00:20:40] She was a nurse intervened and, and, thank God this her son is alive today, but he still suffers the mortification of those images being blasted around the world. The family, excellent family. The mom and dad were both nurses and they shared shifts so that they would always be home for their kids.

[00:20:59] Alert. The police, the police come and say, are you sure you wanna file a report? Your son produced pornography, which is illegal. We could arrest him for producing

[00:21:10] 349-sandie: Mm.

[00:21:10] 349-guest: I mean, what crazy

[00:21:11] 349-sandie: Oh my

[00:21:12] 349-guest:Right? And then the family contacted Twitter and said, take it down. These are young boys. We verify they’re 13 years old in these videos.

[00:21:23] Twitter came back and said. This doesn’t violate our community standards and left the material up. The only reason that video was taken down was because the family’s pastor happened to have a friend who was a DHS, a Department of Homeland Security agent, flashed a badge from DC and, and Twitter took it down, eventually.

[00:21:45] So we have a case, we are with a group of lawyers representing that family. It’s mom is Jane Doe and, and the boy is John Doe. The two boys are, John doe’s. In the filing. So as we’ve entered discovery, we got through in into discovery. The Twitter actually says, we, we don’t care if you call this sex trafficking, because money was made by the advertising, right?

[00:22:07] So Twitter was monetizing those images and making money through the ads. That as people were viewing the material. So our legal argument is you’re monetizing commercial sex, sex sexual material, that’s commercial sex act. And so under the Trafficking Victim’s Protection Act, that’s sex trafficking, Twitter comes back and says, doesn’t even matter.We have the rights under CDA 230.

[00:22:35] That’s not our problem. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s on our websites, but that’s not our problem. CDA two 30 protects us, and, and we don’t have to take it down. We, we don’t need to deal with it even though they. They demonstrated that they knowingly were aware of this material online and they left it up.

[00:22:53] So this is a battleground. We’ve lost this lawsuit, but we hope it goes to the Supreme Court because it’s time for the Supreme Court to really look at this and say, what are you talking about? That’s child pornography, a federal offense. You cannot be facilitating child pornography online. That’s just one example of how, These companies really think they have no responsibility to take down material that is federal criminal material, and they hide behind CDA two 30 to leave it up.

[00:23:26] 349-sandie: So how do we begin at not just the national level, but at the local level to combat this

[00:23:38] to begin initiatives that call for reform. What can everyday people and politicians at school boards, politicians in local government, city state, professors, thought leaders in our universities? What’s our role in, CDA 230.

[00:24:05] 349-guest: So two schools of thought have emerged and California as is so often as a leader, California passed an excellent bill called the Age Appropriate Design Code,

[00:24:17] and it said companies are should be obligated. These products are used by youth, you know, adult used by all kinds of people all day long

[00:24:28] before a product, a service, a platform is launched, it needs to be tested and we need to verify that it’s age appropriate and we need to make sure that unsafe products aren’t lost.

[00:24:41] So it’s also within the sort of product liability zone of the law. Right. And California, passed the age appropriate design code, which was passed in Vermont. For example, just a few weeks ago, it’s being challenged in court by the, the, the big tech companies. and, and we’ll see where that goes. But that idea is let’s look at these platforms from the product liability standpoint.

[00:25:06] So it sort of sides steps the CDA immunity problem and brings new legal theory to bear in order to force these damn companies to be responsible. They’re unbelievably, there’s like so little accountability, an excellent book, just finished reading it this week. There’s a book called Careless People.

[00:25:29] It’s written by Sarah Wynn Williams. She was for 10 years, the Global Public policy leader at Facebook, or Meta, you know, meta owns Facebook and Instagram and WhatsApp. And she testified in the Senate, as she says in her book, Careless People that Meta Tracks children so closely. And knows even their negative emotions, they target ads to kids who are suffering, like fear of having being too fat.

[00:25:58] So they’re targeting those kids who fear they’re too fat with material about diets and even dis eating disorder material. It’s terrifyingly irresponsible, and yet they hide behind CDA 230. So the age appropriate design code in California, we’ll see how it goes in the courts, but more states should probably pass the age appropriate design code.

[00:26:25] But also, states are looking at AI. Let’s, what about curbing ai? You know, artificial intelligence is being used. To, to generate deep fakes, pornographic material, using your face, but putting in a different body, and that’s terrible for, for the victim too. So state level legislative action is relevant. meanwhile, we just this week a senate office shared with us a bill that would repeal CDA 230, and we were very excited to see for Democrat senators and for Republican senators both.

[00:27:03] Already committed to introducing that bill. It hasn’t been introduced yet, so I’m not gonna say who the, members were, but high level, important members of the US Senate have said, enough is enough. We must, force these companies to be accountable ’cause they are not policing themselves. So there’s, there is a bill pending in, in, we believe there will be a.

[00:27:24] A bill pending in Congress to repeal CDA 230. I’m gonna mention one thing, that was we were disturbed at in, that came out of the house side. We’ve all heard about the big beautiful bill, the budget reconciliation bill on the house side. It include a very disturbing set of provisions that said no state can regulate AI for 10 years.

[00:27:46] Wait a second. A moratorium on state regulation of AI. Why? Our country is a, is a set of 50 states that have their own, you know, have community standards, have their own laws. Why would states not be able to regulate AI? So protests have been raised from, from Republican and Democrat senators. So we hope it will not succeed on the Senate side and we’ll nip it in the bud.

[00:28:11] But that’s how powerful big tech is in Congress, that they’re able to engineer a really absurd, right, 10 year moratorium, guess what that is? That is giving AI that same kind of immunity that the internet had under CDA 230 we’re, we’re still struggling to try to get away from the utter. Corporate irresponsibility that CDA two 30 gave us, and now we’re facing an attempt to give that to ai.

[00:28:40] sandie: Wow. Okay. So much to think about here. Let’s give some links and suggestions for how people can gain the knowledge and insight to be an articulate, advocate for change in their local community. I am all about pursuing knowledge so that we can show up in these spaces with more than passion, more than anger.

[00:29:14] So give us three examples of resources we can look to.

[00:29:21] 349-guest: So I’ll send you a link to Professor Mary Gra Leary’s testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee in which she really deep dives into CDA 230. It’s an excellent, testimony from earlier this year. That’s superb. There, there have been a number of investigative pieces. The Wall Street Journal has done several investigations that are good reads.

[00:29:45] for example, in 2023, they revealed that social media algorithms connect pedophiles to children. They, they provide pedophiles with more and more links to kids. You know, quite shocking. Or in your introduction, you, you mentioned, so I can send you links to some of the exceptional Wall Street Journal investigations.

[00:30:10] There is a super law center called the Social Media Victims Law Center. They’re featured in a new documentary, it’s called, Can’t Look Away.

[00:30:21] 349-sandie: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:21] 349-guest: this documentary is just extremely well-informed about the, the, CDA 230 immunity problem. And also, the tragedies of families who’ve lost their loved ones because of irresponsibility that the CDA 230 immunity promotes.

[00:30:38] Right now, this Social Media Victims Law Center has over 4,000 families whose, whose children have been harmed or who have lost their kids as a result of responsibility in social media. and, and there the Social Media Victim’s Law Center website is quite informative. So I’ll, I’ll send you that link.

[00:30:58] There have been over 24 Congressional briefings on this subject since 2019. So in the last six years, over 24. Congress is about the best educated on the online harms. We are hoping this Congress 2024. no 2025, 2026, the hundred 19th Congress is the one that will get serious.

[00:31:22] 349-sandie: Okay. I think we will have to have another conversation for sure. And I wanna bring this also to, you mentioned the faith-based community, and I think this discussion belongs in our local

[00:31:43] religious community, the youth leaders, the folks doing parenting classes, how do parents respond? So I’m gonna probably call you and ask you to come back and talk with me about that. All right?

[00:31:58] 349-guest: Absolutely

[00:31:58] Love to, and, and I know that the White House has set up a faith-based office, that is looking at these issues. So hopefully we’ll get some more federal guidance because one thing, and you know, professor Morgan from the human trafficking movement, it’s, it’s, there isn’t enough federal.

[00:32:17] Federal guidance on best practices. You know, there are jurisdictions around the country that are doing some very good work or, or places where, like San Diego has a, a superb district, attorney or who, who has helped engineer like MOUs between police and direct service providers. And it’s very, it’s it like women who are in exploitation or being exploited, being trafficked and getting them into services. There are some jurisdictions that are doing this well, and then there are places that are absolutely, without model. You know, they’re not, they, they, they don’t have a highly functional system for moving victims into services. So I wish we got more tips and tips from the federal government, right? The Department of Justice sees all this happening around the country.

[00:33:03] Well, tell us who’s doing the best job.

[00:33:06] 349-sandie: Those are good questions. I’m gonna start a list of questions and look for guests that will join us to discuss those. Dr. Gataen, I am delighted to have this conversation.

[00:33:24] We’re gonna keep it going, and thank you so much for being part of our podcast today.

[00:33:30] 349-guest: It’s a pleasure. Thank you so much. I hope I can come back on because it’s, it’s so important and you’ve done such remarkable work over the years by combating human trafficking. Thank you for everything you’ve done.

[00:33:43] 349-sandie: Oh, thank you. And we’ll get together maybe in the same space in the spring for Ensure Justice. And I want our listeners to start planning now for March, 2026. Thanks so much.Have a great day.

[00:34:00] 349-guest: Bye-bye.

[00:34:01] Wow, Eleanor, thank you for shedding light surrounding section 230 in the fight against online sexual exploitation.

[00:34:10] Your expertise really helps me understand better how advocacy and legislative reform play vital roles in protecting communities. Listeners, I encourage you to take the next step by visiting our website, @endinghumantrafficking.org to check out our show notes and other episodes. If you haven’t already, be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss any of the important conversations we’re having.

[00:34:45] We’d also love your help in growing this podcast. You can start by just following us and connecting on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn. And if you know someone who would benefit from today’s episode, invite them to subscribe and join our community. Thank you for listening. I’ll be back in two weeks.

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Andrew Kroeger joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss how anyone can find their unique role in fighting human trafficking without changing careers, using the metaphor of grabbing a handle on an ancient Greek pithari jar.

Andrew KroegerAndrew Kroeger is a podcast producer with over a decade of experience and a proud Vanguard alum. Before podcasting, he worked in book publishing as an editor and spent years as a live sound engineer. He’s also passionate about global missions, having spent many summers living in Romania, doing outreach work for the past eight years. Andrew has been the invisible force behind this podcast, editing every episode, managing the website, and ensuring content reaches listeners in over 170 countries. What’s fascinating is how Andrew never set out to work in anti-human trafficking – this opportunity came to him through his existing skills and connections.

Key Points* Andrew’s journey into anti-trafficking work began as a Vanguard student doing live sound for events, which led to connections that eventually brought him to podcast production work eight years later. * The pithari metaphor illustrates how fighting human trafficking requires many people finding their unique “handle” – you don’t need to carry the entire burden alone, just find where your skills fit. * Andrew emphasizes that people don’t need to change careers or entire life directions to make a meaningful impact in anti-trafficking work – opportunities often come through existing skills and connections. * His global mission experience, particularly in Romania and Egypt’s “Garbage City,” gave him firsthand perspective on trafficking issues that keeps him passionate about the work. * Eight years of editing every episode has transformed Andrew from a “tech guy” into a content expert who can now play an editorial role in shaping the podcast’s message. * Working consistently with anti-trafficking content can lead to emotional numbing, requiring intentional effort to maintain compassion and avoid becoming cynical about the work. * The podcast’s focus on hope and human dignity, rather than just statistics and outcomes, sets it apart from other anti-trafficking content and prevents burnout. * Andrew’s favorite episodes are those featuring Romania because they connect to his personal mission experience, and the recent AI episode with David Tyre because it showed how emerging technology can help rather than hinder anti-trafficking efforts. * The podcast is transitioning to video format to reach more students and young professionals who prefer visual content and want to share episodes with friends and classmates. * Finding your “handle” means recognizing opportunities that come to you naturally rather than forcing your way into anti-trafficking work – partnership is often more effective than starting from scratch.

Resources* Connect with Andrew * 282 – Crisis Prevention of Ukraine Refugee Trafficking, with Ioana Bauer * 341 – Following the Money: How Financial Crime Investigations Disrupt Human Trafficking

Transcript[00:00:00] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. I’m Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking.

[00:00:24] Today I’m flipping the script and putting our producer Andrew Kroeger in front of the microphone. Andrew is a podcast producer with over a decade of experience. And a proud Vanguard alum. Before podcasting, he worked in book publishing as an editor and spent years as a live sound engineer. He’s also passionate about global missions, having spent many summers living in Romania, doing outreach work for the past eight years.

[00:01:05] Andrew has been the invisible force behind this podcast. He’s been editing every episode, managing our website, and ensuring our content reaches listeners in over a 170 countries. What’s fascinating is how Andrew never set out to work in anti-human trafficking. This opportunity came to him through his existing skills and connections.

[00:01:40] In our conversation, we’ll discuss how he found his handle. Think about the pithari jar, why you don’t need to change careers to make a difference in fighting human trafficking, and we’ll also share some exciting news about the podcast future direction. And now let’s hop to the interview.

[00:02:07] One of our favorite stories on the ending Human Trafficking podcast is the story of the pithari. The pithari is a huge jar, a vessel in the King’s pantry of the palace at On the island of Crete. And I still remember the first time I saw it because I thought. I could stand up inside of that. It was so huge and I learned that it was used to bring olive oil, grain, nuts, whatever, into the pantry.

[00:02:47] Now the pantry was downstairs in the King’s palace and the stairs were rather narrow and very steep, and I wondered how the people could get it down there. This is 3000 years ago, and then it was explained that the handles that I thought were decorative were instrumental. They were baked on from the top.

[00:03:14] Of the jar all the way to the bottom and all the way around. So try to imagine people being able to grab a handle, whether they’re on the top stair or middle or down below, to carry this huge vessel filled with maybe olive oil. You don’t want it to spill, and everyone had to find. Their handle to carry it safely to the bottom,And that is the image I have in my mind when I think about how many people it takes to lead the anti-human trafficking movement. And one of the most important people that you never get to see or meet, and the ending Human Trafficking podcast is our producer. Andrew Kroeger. So I have him today in studio and I am excited to welcome you here.

[00:04:16] How does it feel to be on the other end of the microphone?

[00:04:21] Andrew Kroeger: It feels absolutely wild, and I’ve never been more nervous.

[00:04:24] In my entire life.

[00:04:26] Sandie Morgan: Oh my gosh. So let’s do a little bit of our origin story. And when you joined the team, most of our listeners, remember when Dave Stachowiak was on our Global Center for Women I Justice Board and said, let’s start a podcast.

[00:04:43] And I’m like, what? We started the podcast. We were co-hosts for years, and that was his handle in how to respond to anti-human trafficking. But today you are the producer.

[00:05:01] Andrew Kroeger: I am the producer, so the story actually goes way back, way before this show, and I was actually a student here at Vanguard and a sound engineer here on campus doing live sound for events and every big conference you had on campus.

[00:05:16] I would run the sound for it. So I got to know you guys years and years ago and then somehow I know, stayed in touch doing all sorts of projects and I work with Dave a lot and the, something was changing on the Vanguard website and we were gonna lose all of our episodes, so we thought now’s the time to build our own website.

[00:05:35] And at the time I was building websites for people and salvaged all these episodes that were gonna disappear. And then I ended up producing all of them. That was eight, eight years ago. So the story with us goes way back to running events and doing, you know, stacking chairs in auditoriums, doing all sorts of interesting stuff.

[00:05:53] And I really didn’t know you beyond those few events. So it’s really cool to connect again, like that.

[00:05:59] Sandie Morgan: Vanguard alums are so a part of our story at the Global Center.

[00:06:05] Andrew Kroeger: That is for sure. So tell me a little bit about how you see your role in carrying this issue forward. I think of my role in two ways. First of all, it’s the obvious stuff is the producers.

[00:06:22] So I’m sort of the tech guy behind the scenes and I make sure the websites are still running and episodes are being recorded and put together properly. But also I. My role is maybe not one that Sandie ever feels, but I feel like the a perfect man on the street in an interview where I don’t really know the subject.

[00:06:39] I mean, I’ve been listening to every single episode for eight years, so I do know the subject well now, but when I first started, it was really interesting listening as a non-expert and kind of going along the journey. But now I feel like. I play more of an editorial role where I know as I’m doing an an edit where to move things around and where to make sure we preserve something because it’s an important point and where we are able to cut things down for time and that was something that is a role.

[00:07:08] I wasn’t playing in the beginning. I was just sort of learning and now I think that’s a really cool part of the job we have. We have now.

[00:07:14] Sandie Morgan: So when I think about how you got involved in this and where you are in your life and your career, I’m curious about how you invested so much of your personal passion and compassion for global issues for the marginalized, and somehow I believe that is a key part of why you keep showing up.

[00:07:42] It’s not just because you’re the tech guy. Is that what you called yourself?

[00:07:47] Andrew Kroeger: I don’t know

[00:07:50] Andrew Kroeger: Yeah. So I am, I am, like I said, just a tech guy and just, uh, innocent bystander at the beginning, and now I’ve become sort of a content topical expert just by listening.

[00:08:02] But the reason I keep coming back and investing so much of my own energy into this is I think I’ve spent my entire life doing sort of short term mission trips all over the world, but also all across the US and in Mexico. And I think working with all these people across the world has given me the opportunity to see, to see.

[00:08:24] The other person’s perspective in a way that I wouldn’t get just living in Orange County. So for example, in Egypt I went to, I think they call it Garbage city. It’s basically the Cairo

[00:08:33] city dump. And we spent a couple weeks there working with kids and seeing a lot of the human trafficking stuff going on over there.

[00:08:42] And then I also spent many, many years in Romania. I spent a lot of summers there and

[00:08:48] That’s a major hub for trafficking in that part of Eastern Europe. And I was working specifically with gypsies, and that really gave me, I think, an an interesting view that, like I said, I hadn’t had before in Orange County.

[00:09:01] So now coming back here, I found I still apply that sort of that global perspective and that that care and compassion for people that I learned by being alongside them rather than just reading about them or learning about them. And I think that’s what keeps me coming back to this is, you know, there’s a lot of episodes with, Ioana Bauer, who’s from Romania, and we think the most recent one she did maybe was about Ukraine or a couple episodes ago.

[00:09:26] And I’ve got a friend, a close friend who’s a Ukrainian refugee and learning about the trafficking situation there, specifically with Ukrainians, again, brought it. All that right. Closer to my home. ’cause I know somebody who’s lived through that and that’s a really cool, like a cool kind of connection point again, and that’s why I keep coming back to this.

[00:09:45] Sandie Morgan: So when I think about the pithari, which is kind of our theme, we have a huge issue, too big for one person to carry.

[00:09:55] But the impact of The Ending Human Trafficking podcast, it’s turned you into an armchair expert. Is that right? and you get to connect with people literally all over the world, and your personal compassion is energized by those connections, but at the same time, you have an important role. It is significant to have the behind the scenes production of this podcast.

[00:10:33] Tell me how that makes you feel. It’s a pretty heavy lift, and I don’t think people understand what it takes to produce a podcast. And actually I have to interrupt myself here because I’ve, I’m on Instagram, I am on other social media, and it always feels like anybody can do a podcast.

[00:10:58] You just need a phone and do this, and you’re done. And then I listen to podcasts and now. I listen occasionally to our podcast and it is very good to hear the quality and the careful editing that keeps it, most of the time, pretty close to our 30 minute limit, which fits a lot of people’s commutes.

[00:11:28] And so your technical expertise is a handle on that pithari. And what, how do you understand that as, as a mission, as an occupation, as a driving force that values that behind the scene contribution.

[00:11:51]Andrew Kroeger: That’s an interesting question. I think because I, I’ve done all this mission work all across the world and I came home and I’m just kind of settled into a career doing all sorts of projects for all sorts of clients, and I.

[00:12:02] Andrew Kroeger: Had sort of gotten disconnected from the issue because you know, it’s been a long time since I was a student here running sound for events for the global center here, and I was just going about my daily life and then this whole thing kind of plopped into my lap because I had another client I was working with, Dave, the co-host we mentioned earlier.

[00:12:19] I work with him on his show and he called me one day and he said, Hey, we need some help on this show. And I said, okay, whatever. I just thought it was just another random project I’d be doing it. And when it started, that was really all it was. Was just another project. But as time has gone on, like I said, I’ve, I’ve become less of a random listener and more of an expert and so involved in it.

[00:12:41] And I found that all the stuff that I’d done there earlier in my life with traveling and working with all these people perfectly came back and tied into what I’m doing now, where I’m able to help people even though I’m not able to travel anymore, I’m still able. To be a part of that fight against trafficking.

[00:12:58] To me, that was super, super cool.

[00:13:00] So all the background stuff I do. So we talk about editing and yeah, every, every show is edited, some of them better than others, so you don’t know. They’re being edited. And what we try to do here is

[00:13:10] to make sure nothing we edit changes the message or the content in any way. It’s just helping people express their ideas better and so we can meet our time goals, so we can respect your time as a listener.

[00:13:25] And that process. Again, it’s like all the traveling I’ve done that process is also using a skillset set. I spent my entire life developing. I was a book editor for a long time before this, and it’s again, really cool seeing how all that stuff is tying together into this role, the travel with, which gives me the, the, the compassionate ear and the care for these people and just my random skillset.

[00:13:46] So it’s been cool how it’s all tied right back together

[00:13:49] Sandie Morgan: And going back to our image of the pithari, and we’ll have that picture on the webpage if you are trying to imagine it. And this idea that there is a handle, there is a place that your unique skillset. Is just right for you don’t have to carry the whole thing.

[00:14:12] I often talk to nonprofit leaders who feel overwhelmed by the burden, and I think one of the things we have to do better is engage our partners in the community that can find a handle and make the work lighter for everybody.

[00:14:32] Andrew Kroeger: and, and like with me, I didn’t have to find like make a new handle for myself or knock down doors to find a way I could help.

[00:14:39] I’m just going about my daily life and things are just coming to me and I’m recognizing an opportunity as some way that I can help. I didn’t have to change my entire life to do this. And I think a lot of people can be the same way.

[00:14:50] Sandie Morgan: I love that, and I often wish there was a way, now I’ll refer them to this conversation because I have students who come in and they wanna change their major, they wanna change their career.

[00:15:04] “I wanna fight human trafficking. How do I do that?” And that is exactly right. There is one handle that is perfect for you. I don’t need you to change who you are and what you’re good at.

[00:15:21] Andrew Kroeger: Yeah. And, and I always thought too, if you want to continue doing like mission work like I was doing, or, or run a nonprofit or something, you have to quit everything you do in your entire life just to do that. And that’s definitely not the case. And it’s probably not even the best approach anyway. ’cause there’s so many other people already doing all this stuff.

[00:15:36] Find a way to partner with them, grab a handle on their pithari jar rather than starting, you know, reinventing the wheel.

[00:15:43] Sandie Morgan: I love that. Okay, so you do the behind the scenes stuff, and I do have to thank you publicly.

[00:15:51] When I meet people, they say, oh, Dr. Morgan, you are so articulate. I never hear. An uh, or an eh. I was like, yeah, thank you, Andrew.

[00:16:04] Andrew Kroeger: Yeah.

[00:16:05] Sandie Morgan: He edits out for time purposes. Of course. Not for my vanity. Is that right?

[00:16:10] Andrew Kroeger: But it’s all shows. Like I said, all shows are being edited and they’re all editing out, that kind of stuff because it doesn’t help help people with understanding. It’s distracting. And it’s really easy to do.

[00:16:20] It’s doesn’t take that long to do now, and I think that that’s a service we’re providing the listeners, but also something that helps the guests feel comfortable coming on the show, knowing, okay, there’s somebody kinda watching out for me as I’m going through this, and I think it helps reduce the stress level a lot for guests too.

[00:16:37] So again, it’s just like one thing I can do, I’m not there in person recording except for today. Obviously this is weird for me, but. My presence is there helping them behind the scenes. And I think that brings a lot of peace to people, and that’s part of the things I love most about what I do.

[00:16:52] Sandie Morgan: Oh, I love it too.

[00:16:54] And I always tell my guests that, don’t worry, Andrew. We’ll fix that. Yeah. So, okay, let’s talk about some of your favorite episodes. What are they and why?

[00:17:08] Andrew Kroeger: I think the, the ones I, I love the most are the ones where Romania comes up ’cause that’s where my heart is and I still want to get back there. I thought I’d end up believing there forever. I love those episodes because those are sort of the ones that tie me back to why I am even doing this in the first place. The love for the people that I’ve seen and you know, after a decade or whatever, things just start to feel distant. You know, you still have friends there, but you don’t talk to ’em very often, if ever.

[00:17:35] And it starts to feel just so foreign and you sort of lose track of it. And you don’t care so much about the people just ’cause you’re not around them. And this has been a really cool way for me to kind of dive back into that world ’cause that was really what made me compassionate person that I am doing that work.

[00:17:50] And I love coming into the office here and seeing all the posters for all the Romanian trips you guys have done.all over Romania, and it’s so cool for me to see that because I’m not, I’m not able to get over there right now.

[00:18:00] Sandie Morgan: Wow. Any other episodes that you found really important? Yeah,

[00:18:05] Andrew Kroeger: the one we did with David Tyre recently about AI was fascinating to me because people are so scared of AI. Because it could do a lot of damage, but also does a lot of good stuff and it’s really cool seeing emerging technology helping us in the fight against human trafficking instead of making things worse for us.

[00:18:25] So the way they’re using AI modeling to track financial records it’s allowed us to do things that we never could have imagined like the speed and the scale that you can find problems and track people down has completely changed, and I think they’re doing amazing work.

[00:18:40] That was super exciting.

[00:18:41] Sandie Morgan: That’s very cool.

[00:18:43] Has anything surprised you about producing the podcast?

[00:18:47] Andrew Kroeger: One thing that’s been interesting for me is years ago when you hear about trafficking and you watch a documentary or, or something about it, and this might be a hot take, but you get really impacted by it.

[00:19:00] ’cause it’s so, it’s so scary and I have been doing this for so long that I’ve heard all these stories and in some way it’s, it’s kept me compassionate, but it’s also sort of numbed me to the harsh realities of this, and I think that’s something a lot of people working in nonprofits.

[00:19:19] Face is it’s, it sort of becomes normalized and you, and you’re not really shocked by anything like you think about it and it saddens you where you’re not shocked by it. And my mom got back from a trip to India. She was doing a mission trip there, and she came back sharing all these videos about like documentaries she was watching about the girls she was working with there and I

[00:19:40] just sort of, it just sort of rolled right off of me and I didn’t think much about it. And it was a really, ’cause because I just, I’ve, I know so much about it now that I’m not shocked like she is. And I think that’s a really cool, wake up call for me and anybody who’s working with nonprofits to, to continually kind of check your compassion level and make sure you’re not just going through it.

[00:20:01] That was a big, surprising takeaway for me. And it’s sort of a, I don’t know, again, a hot take. But being on the show and actively engaging in the way I am is what’s allowed me to continue doing this. Whereas if you were just reading books about it and not really doing anything about it, I think it’d be really easy to become cynical.

[00:20:20] Sandie Morgan: Mm.

[00:20:21] Andrew Kroeger: And, and having, being an active participant and doing good is, is a much, much better approach.

[00:20:26] Sandie Morgan: I love that.

[00:20:28] So you guys listening, I, I need you to know I don’t come up with all the questions. I’ve got interns, staff, and Andrew to help me. And so this next question I did not write, I’m just just getting that out there.

[00:20:44] So here’s the next question, Andrew. What is it like working with Sandie and what should listeners know about her?

[00:20:54] Sandie Morgan: I know, you’re laughing.

[00:20:55] I have to think about this one. One thing that’s related to what I just said about sort of getting numbed to things is Sandie’s like a little fireball of energy for. Fighting trafficking and she knows far, far more than I will ever know, and she never seems to get numb to it. And I think there’s something special about her that that allows her to continue, continue, continue, and never stop.

[00:21:20] And it’s probably exhausting for her, but it’s also cool to see how somebody who is in a position where. It’d be so easy to be completely burnt out and just kind of grinding away and applying for grants and, oh, here’s another one. Another year, oh, we’re doing these numbers, but losing sight of the actual humans behind those numbers, and I think that’s something Sandie does really cool.

[00:21:41] That’s what I would say.

[00:21:43] Sandie Morgan: Aw, thank you Andrew.

[00:21:46] Andrew Kroeger: so the point, the point was be like, Sandie, don’t be like me.

[00:21:51] Sandie Morgan: No. but it takes, uh, community like you around me to make sure that fire keeps burning. So, and that kind of leads me to the next question.

[00:22:01] What makes the Ending Human Trafficking podcast different?

[00:22:07] Andrew Kroeger: I think our focus on, on hope is a, a key difference. I mean, it, it’s all, we all, we frame everything around education. We’re trying to teach people, but we do everything with kind of a hopeful perspective that a lot of nonprofits in any industry, I think it’s easy to lose that hope.

[00:22:28] Andrew Kroeger: And again, like I keep talking about getting back to that grind and I think that, that this podcast is really, really good about always emphasizing the hope and the progress and the dignity that people have, rather than just talking about numbers and outcomes.

[00:22:44] Sandie Morgan: I agree entirely, and it is certainly one of my goals to make sure that this podcast points people to hope and their role in growing hope.

[00:22:58] They are part of the solution, and as we look at our future and the podcast. This is episode number 348. We started in 2011. and we just keep plugging along. And so if you were able to cast vision for the next. Three years, what would your hopes for the podcast be?

[00:23:32] Well, I’ll tell you what we’re doing in the next few months, which is helping our goal for the next few years is we’re actually switching to video. I don’t know if that’s a big reveal or not. Maybe we’ve talked

[00:22:35] Sandie Morganoh my gosh. No we haven’t. But I’m scared.

[00:23:44] Andrew Kroeger: the cat’s outta the bag now, so we’re switching the video at some point. We’re working on, it’s a work in progress, like all things, and the goal with that is to. To make, make this more accessible to more people. So I think right now a lot of our listeners are professionals working in nonprofits and things like that, and we have lots and lots of guests who are outside of that system, but still fighting trafficking

[00:24:08] And I think that’s one way. Switching to video will help us reach more people like that because they’re not just finding one little audio only show we can get on YouTube. We can get on all the social media platforms and really have compelling content that people can engage with.

[00:24:23] So we’ll get more students listening. We have a lot of students here listening and they’re continually asking for video, video, video. ’cause they wanna share these with their friends. And that’s the best way to do it. So I’m really excited. Switching the video, it’ll allow us to increase, uh, increase, increase the size of the audience is not the goal.

[00:24:41] The goal is impact. So people can find how they can help. And the more people we can reach, the more people we can help them find their, you know, their ju their handle on the pithari. And I think that’s a really cool, cool thing that we’re looking forward to doing in the next few years.

[00:24:55] Sandie Morgan: I absolutely resonate with the responsiveness to the student population because I do see the future of combating human trafficking. We have to hand this off to the next generation of professionals when.

[00:25:14] I came back from Spain and our study abroad, and if you haven’t listened to episode 347, friends, go back and listen. Five students from 19 to 20 and their passion and their. Vision for how they’re going to use their major and join this fight inspires me to keep doing the podcast because the next generation, they’re going to be the ones to end human trafficking.

[00:25:48] Andrew Kroeger: Yeah. And that’s exactly it. The next generation is, is everything is video.

[00:25:53] Even podcasts, audio, podcasts are now video. All the shows are switching. It’s because, because that’s where the people are and I think as, as we wanna bring new people into the fold, that’s the way you gotta reach ’em where they are. And if we keep doing what we’re doing with audio only, we’re not gonna be able to reach all those people so they won’t even know how they can fit in.

[00:26:13] To the big picture. This is a way we can do that. And I’m, I’m really excited about video.

[00:26:17] Sandie Morgan: Well, and I’m really grateful to come back to how we started that I have a tech guy who found a handle, to help move this issue forward because I can have all the knowledge. And the understanding around human trafficking, but I gotta have somebody to teach me how to do the recordings and

[00:26:43] make sure everything is uploaded correctly and you’re so patient, and I know you said nice things about me, but what I want

[00:26:55] Andrew Kroeger: was I called you a ball of fire, which is good or bad,

[00:26:57] Sandie Morgan: ah,

[00:26:58] Andrew Kroeger: depending on the direction it’s heading.

[00:27:01] Sandie Morgan: Well, you are, steadfast and.

[00:27:05] Definitely patient. I, this is not, tech is not my generation’s forte, but I keep recording. I even took portable equipment with me to Spain and produce that amazing episode. Seriously, go back and listen toit.

[00:27:24] Andrew Kroeger: It’s a good one.

[00:27:25] Sandie Morgan: Share it with other students because we want them to see themselves grabbing a handle and we move this issue forward and finish it.

[00:27:38] Andrew Kroeger: the next few years will be huge for us, I think.

[00:27:40] Sandie Morgan: Well, I’m gonna buy more lipstick ’cause I’m gonna be on video. That’s gonna be my big, big takeaway from this transition.

[00:27:48] Andrew, thank you for coming on the podcast, but thank you especially for faithfully making sure that the podcast gets produced and is available to people around the world.

[00:28:04] Andrew Kroeger: You bet. Stay tuned to everybody. Good stuff is coming.

[00:28:07] Thank you, Andrew, for finally stepping in front of the microphone and sharing your insights about finding your handle in the anti-trafficking movement. Your reminder that you don’t need to change your entire life to make a meaningful impact is exactly what so many of our listeners need to hear.

[00:28:30] Sandie Morgan: And yes. Andrew revealed our big news.

[00:28:33] We are transitioning to video. This will help us reach more students and young professionals who are asking for video content so they can share these conversations with their friends and classmates.

[00:28:50] Take the next step. Go over to ending human trafficking dot. Org where you can find show notes for this episode. Follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. And if you are already part of our community, share this episode with someone who might be wondering how they can get involved.

[00:29:15] There’s a handle on this enormous vessel that’s perfectly shaped for your hands. Find it, grab it, and help us carry this issue forward. I’ll be back in two weeks for another

View Details

Dr. Brenda Navarrete and a group of Vanguard University students join Dr. Sandie Morgan as they reflect on their study abroad trip to Spain, where they partnered with Fiat to learn about trauma-informed care, survivor empowerment, and global anti-trafficking efforts.

Dr. Brenda Navarrete and StudentsDr. Brenda Navarrete is a professor and research associate at Vanguard University and an expert in trauma-informed survivor care. She teaches in the university’s Online Human Trafficking Certificate program. Her knowledge and cultural insight helped shape a meaningful and immersive learning experience for the Vanguard students during their study abroad program.

Key Points The study abroad trip to Madrid gave Vanguard students firsthand experience with global anti-trafficking work through a partnership with Fiat, a nonprofit serving survivors in Spain. * Students emphasized learning trauma-informed principles, such as avoiding re-victimization and respecting survivor autonomy. * Art therapy and creative expression were highlighted as effective and healing methods used at the safe home, with students witnessing their calming and empowering effects. * The cultural value of acomodida*—a spirit of humble, proactive service—became a guiding principle for student engagement with survivors. * Students learned that trauma-informed care includes mutuality and empowerment, where survivors also offer and give, creating meaningful connection. * Activities like cooking, sharing stories, and doing art together fostered authentic relationships and mutual respect. * Projects like the Tree of Life and vision boards allowed survivors to express their roots, hopes, and dreams in empowering and therapeutic ways. * The behind-the-scenes roles at Fiat, from psychologists to accountants to legal teams, revealed the extensive support system needed to care for survivors effectively. * The experience helped students connect their faith, education, and career goals with real-world advocacy and social justice work. * Multiple students reflected on how the trip inspired them to pursue their dreams, shift their career direction, and deepen their commitment to anti-trafficking work. * Dr. Brenda and Dr. Sandie both emphasized the mutual transformation that occurred during the trip—for both the survivors and the students—through shared humanity and humility. * Students left with a renewed sense of purpose, hope, and vision for how they can contribute to justice and healing in their own communities.

Resources* Trip photos on the GCWJ Facebook page

Transcript[00:00:00] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. I’m Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we equip you to study the issues, be a voice and make a difference. In the Fight to End human trafficking here at the Global Center for Women in Justice at Vanguard University and wherever you are.

[00:00:22] In this special episode, we’re joined by a passionate group of Vanguard University students, Bella Luzi, Alba, deiz Alvarado. Itel Monroy, Delaney Menninger, and Ariana Johnson. Along with professor and research associate Dr. Brenda Navarrete. They were all on the recent study abroad trip to Madrid, Spain. During this trip, we partnered with Fiat, an amazing nonprofit dedicated to preventing human trafficking and supporting survivors.

[00:01:05] This experience gave our students a firsthand look at the realities of global anti-trafficking efforts, what prevention looks like in real communities, how frontline nonprofits operate, and the importance of collaboration.

[00:01:25] Let’s listen in as they reflect on how this journey shaped their learning, their faith, and their future advocacy.

[00:01:35] Sandie Morgan: I

[00:01:35] have been in Spain for the last 11 days with a Vanguard University Global Center for Women and Justice Study Abroad team. They have been working with the organization called Fiat, here in Madrid, Spain.

[00:01:57] and we have spent several days working in the aftercare home and we have spent time. With the staff and professionals at F. So let’s have a conversation from the student’s perspective about their experience and what they learned. Let’s start with you, Bella, and tell us what did you expect?

[00:02:30] Guests: Hi, my name’s Bella Luzi. I am a, I just finished up my freshman year at Vanguard University. I am majoring in communications and I have a minor in Women in Justice. coming onto this trip, I really didn’t know what to expect. I took Intro to Women in Justice this year, so I got a brief understanding of, the patriarchy and just kind of dipped my toes into, um, women I justice.

[00:02:56]And so, coming onto this trip, I just had, Just open expectations and just was curious to see what I was gonna learn and find out. and I was really pleasantly surprised with, what I, what I ended up acquiring from this trip.

[00:03:10] Sandie Morgan: Let’s go to you, Alba.

[00:03:13] Guests: Hi, my name is Alba Alvarado. I’m a graduated senior and I’m a sociology major with a minor in criminology.

[00:03:21] I didn’t really have an expectation. I was blessed enough to go to Greece last year with Dr. Morgan, and I was trying to see the differences of what we. We’re gonna do and what we did, but I knew we were gonna meet wonderful ladies like Fiona, her daughter, and the women in the safe home. So I was really excited to get to know everybody and learn more from it.

[00:03:47] Sandie Morgan: Thank you.

[00:03:47] Guests: Hello, my name is Roy. I am a freshman. I am majoring in liberal studies with a minor in criminal justice and overall. I think I had an expectation but didn’t at the same time. I tried to make sure like my expectations were low, so then when I got there, I was just amazingly surprised of like everything we were doing, like all of the, presentations and being able to just be with the women and, and see with sort of their daily life looks like.

[00:04:21] Sandie Morgan: Ariana.

[00:04:23] Guests: Hi, my name’s Ariana Johnson. I am going to be a sophomore this year. I am majoring in theology and minoring in women’s justice. I. As along with the other ladies, I didn’t have many expectations for the trip. I am currently an intern at, the Global Center and have learned a lot, and I was just excited to meet these women and make relationships and learn a lot.

[00:04:51] And I am Delaney Menninger. I am a incoming senior at Vanguard who’s studying sociology with a minor in women’s justice. I also have worked for the center for this past year, so I’ve gotten some good information on what human trafficking kind of looks like. I’ve worked a lot on the preventative side of it, but I was really excited to learn more about victim services and kind of see what that looks like to.

[00:05:18] Be in that place of taking care of somebody.

[00:05:21] Sandie Morgan: A major focus of this study abroad was to understand trauma-informed survivor care. Dr. Brenda Navarrete is an expert in that and teaches that in our online human trafficking certificate. And we had two guest lecturers from Fiat that are psychologists that work with victims becoming survivors and going on to be reintegrated in society.

[00:05:57] So I’d like to hear from a student perspective, what were the main things that stood out to you about trauma informed practices? Either from your personal perspective, what you were told, and then what you actually experienced in

[00:06:21] the

[00:06:21] home.

[00:06:23] Guests: So when we were preparing for the trip, we talked a little bit about trauma-informed care, and then our psychologist kind of gave us some more information on that. A really big part of trauma-informed care is making sure that you’re not re-victimizing, people who have been through these experiences, making sure that you’re not.

[00:06:42] Being consistent with asking these questions and prying and trying to get something for your own entertainment or curiosity. And so I think that was something that everybody did a great job of being a person who was there, if that was something they wanted to talk about, but not prying for our own personal gain or for, you know, to fulfill that kind of natural curiosity that we have.

[00:07:04] And then I also think that, just making sure we were, Understanding cultural context where people are coming from being very, just in the know of what they had been through without applying that to everything that they were, and kind of again, revictimizing them into that context.

[00:07:22] One thing, I really saw in the context of the home, that we learned about in the lecture, Was the kind of therapy that F offers, for the women. And one thing that really stood out, stood out to me was, um, the art therapy and how one of the women in the home, verbalized with us that she really feels relaxed when she’s painting.

[00:07:43] and I thought that it was really cool to be able to just see that, in action. And when we did a art project and you could just see like the relaxation coming over the women when they were partaking in something that like, Not only, not only relax them, but that they knew that it was like their thing, their go-to.

[00:08:01] so it’s really important to have those things for these So when they’re feeling stressed and anxious or, just having a hard time that they can go and relieve it in just such a healthy way.

[00:08:11] Sandie Morgan: One of the things that I heard you all talking about at

[00:08:16] one point in the conversations around breakfast and as we were on our way, was this idea of

[00:08:26] omo.

[00:08:27] the, and.

[00:08:29] When you mentioned Delaney about the cultural context, I wonder, Dr. Brenda, if you could describe the culture

[00:08:41] Guests: of,

[00:08:42] Sandie Morgan: o, uh, Comida, and why that was important in a survivor informed context.

[00:08:52] Guests: Yes, of course. So the Spanish word

[00:08:54] acomedida refers to someone who’s helpful and considerate and eager to serve without being asked, and it’s a beautiful and culturally rich term that conveys humility.

[00:09:08] An initiative and a servant heart and and it really represents qualities that are, I think, especially important when entering someone else’s space, like the home of the women that have, have experienced human trafficking in this context. And so I think it was important for us as a group when we enter this home, that we step into a posture of humility.

[00:09:33] not as guests to be served, but as compassionate visitors that are willing to help and that we participate in the daily life. And things like cleaning, after, cleaning up, after meals, offering to help in the kitchen, or simply being attentive to the needs. That arise in that space and building connection through service and demonstrating respect and solidarity, through all the little, just small meaningful actions.

[00:09:59] Yeah. Going off of that, it was really beautiful just to make friendships with these ladies. We got to see beautiful connections formed, and it’s almost as if you forgot. Not necessarily forgot, but their conditioned, but more so just loving on them and just taking care of them. But they also took care of us.

[00:10:19] They taught us. Words in Spanish. And, they showed us different things that they’re passionate about and we just got to empower them and they empowered us.

[00:10:31] So, just like Dr. Brenda said

[00:10:34] is, um, a very. Spanish thing, at least in my culture and my Mexican culture.we have always learned to be flexible and just very caring for one another. I think it is a very important thing. for example, in my experience, I was able to translate for some of the girls who didn’t know much of Spanish.

[00:10:55] Um, just being there and being very flexible and just teaching them or trying to speak with them. Being able to have a conversation with one another, or even if it was just like helping them out washing the dishes. I think I, I fall under that. I’m very flexible in being mm-hmm.

[00:11:13] And one more thing on that. It was really a discipline to learn this acomedida because it wasn’t easy at first and I think we like tried and we really had to learn the culture behind it and how to. Be persistent with offering that help and making it known that we wanted to be a part of that, that it wasn’t a burden on us because we just have love for them and we want to make this action out of love.

[00:11:37] Because I think that first day we were kind of like, oh, do you need help? And the women had been very clear even when they introduced. Does. They never want to admit if they need help and they won’t, especially if there’s guests, especially if there’s somebody they feel maybe they owe something to. They never want to ask for that help.

[00:11:53] But making sure to use that specific language, I want to help, how can I help is so important. And understanding that really. Kind of grew that con cultural context and that relationship with all of us because we got to then have those experiences with them and let them know we wanted to be a part of them.

[00:12:13] Sandie Morgan: I love that when, when we were having breakfast one morning, Dr. Brenda said to us that sometimes when you ask one of the women. Do you want this? They and you, you brought something, an art craft, something we were doing, they say no. it doesn’t actually mean no. And maybe you have to offer it three times before they say Oh, yes.

[00:12:45] So, yeah, I love that. But. Alba.

[00:12:51] Guests: I just wanted to go along with what Delaney was saying, that I was able to see acomedida One of the ladies was like, my house is your house. Like we were able to be. Already a family within knowing each other for a couple days. one example that I felt very much acomedida was in the kitchen.

[00:13:08] I love being in the kitchen. Two of the ladies was showing me like how to make empanadas or just how they make their signature dish or dessert. And what I, as I was shredding chicken, she was like, okay, now it’s your turn to talk. Now it’s your turn to tell a story or your life. While some of us did the dishes or some of us was still cooking and just being able to.

[00:13:30]Feel part of their, like their family felt so nice ’cause we didn’t know them at first. I, for one, was really shy and being able to connect with the food or the culture itself was really beautiful.

[00:13:45] Sandie Morgan: So I observed my students in this space and they came literally with supplies and things to do with the women.

[00:13:55] And then I observed. How that actually looked in real life. can somebody talk about what it felt like when they started offering to do things for you?

[00:14:14] Guests: I for one, with one of the women. She was one of the loveliest there. Out of all of them were very lovely, but she was probably one of my favorites there that day. Um, we had finished, I, I believe it was eating lunch. And I just got very bored and I had a pen, and I’ve always loved to draw on myself. I’ve always loved Hena, and I just looked up a picture and I was just going to do Hena on myself, like with a pen and

[00:14:45]

[00:14:46] Guests: the

[00:14:46] woman there, she decided, she said, oh, would you like me to do it for you?

[00:14:52] And I said, yes. just ’cause, and maybe it was like something fun for her. I asked her if she’d like to draw, I think it was just something simple being able to connect, talk, and have conversations. I think after that they had asked if we wanted Hena.

[00:15:05] Obviously with the permission of you guys, we, we were able to get Hena done and all of the girls. All of us got Hannah, and I think it was just a very good and nice experience just to let them do something they love and let them be just. In their zone being with you, doing something that they want to do.

[00:15:28] And it was good because she would sit with one of us and she would have a separate conversation with each and every one of us. And it was just an amazing, amazing thing.

[00:15:36] Sandie Morgan: And I loved standing behind her and looking at your faces because you were receiving genuinely. And she loved giving to you. I, I don’t know

[00:15:54] Guests: where

[00:15:54] Sandie Morgan: that fits Dr.

[00:15:55] Brenda in trauma informed care, but I just,

[00:16:01] she taught me how important it is for us to understand that receiving is, it’s an a humble act and it’s very fun to give, but

[00:16:16] receiving from someone. Who has had so little,

[00:16:20] That’s a lesson in humility.

[00:16:24] Guests: I’m glad that you brought that experience up because I, I think there are a lot of trauma-informed principles that we can draw from. Even in this experience. I think it’s about leveling out the power dynamics. This is something that is a skill of hers that she’s able to share with you.

[00:16:42] She’s able to use her creativity in that moment and give something to you and you’re able to receive. And I think that that puts her in a position of sharing and giving, and that’s empowering to her. And it creates a space of, of mutuality. Which I think can be very empowering and I saw lots of laughter and sharing and mutuality during that time, which was really fun to watch for both Dr.

[00:17:10] Morgan and I.

[00:17:11] Sandie Morgan: I

[00:17:12] loved the laughter and it, the verse that says, laughter is good medicine. I thought about it at least 10 times a day because you guys brought so much laughter.

[00:17:26] Guests: Going off of, what Ital was kind of talking about.

[00:17:29] Bella Luzi: I had a experience with a few of the women. I speak English and only English, very little, Spanish, and I got to just have some moments with the women where I would be struggling with a word in Spanish and.

[00:17:45] They would literally like look at me in the eyes and not let me move on to the next word until I said it perfectly in Spanish.

[00:17:53] Guests: and I think,

[00:17:54] Bella Luzi: and then that kind of like spiraled into us sitting down for like, like 30 minutes doing Spanish lessons where the, the woman would sit down and teach me sp, teach me Spanish.

[00:18:05] and it was really cool to just see how empowering sh it was for her. To just feel like she’s so good at something and it was something so simple. but yeah, it was just really fun to be able to like, let her, just pour into me. And I honestly think like leaving that home, I was able to take away, like be filled up just so much more than I think, um, I was able to even give, like these women had so much to offer, just with

[00:18:34] who they are. And, like that was enough to just be like, wow, these women are absolutely amazing. and so I just, I just feel like it was a really cool opportunity to have, like, have these women feel empowered.

[00:18:47] Guests: Delaney, you led the Tree of Life Project and I watched as you were able to engage women to take that over and own it for themselves, what were the elements that the women owned.

[00:19:08] Yeah. so the Tree of Life was Dr. Brenda’s idea, and it was something that we wanted to use to, include both art therapy and also empowerment to the women through writing down things that motivate them, things that inspire them on the leaves of the tree.

[00:19:27] And then we used all of the women’s hand prints to make the roots of the tree. And then we had them. Write down things that made them feel rooted, things that they were grounded in, that give them this life that are their beginnings, that are their reasons for continuing this life. and we felt that that was really important for the women to recognize those things, the reasons to keep going, especially when we later had a psychologist come in and talk about how almost.

[00:19:53] A a hundred percent of the women that they’ve worked with have had a suicidal attempt, have had a point in their life where they felt there was nothing to keep them going. to have these women recognize the things that do make life worth living and do root them and ground them, was so important for us, and we wanted them to see that as well.

[00:20:14] And they did amazing. Everything that they came up with, everything that they brought to us was just so beautiful. And also just. Having a physical, Representation of that to look at, to look at, oh, I am strong. Oh, that is the reason I keep going. And that is the quote that means so much to me. Dr.

[00:20:34] Brenda had an experience with one of the women who said that she really needed that, that those words that were said were from God, they were from her faith, and she needed them to keep her going because of the situation that she was in. And so that was just such a. Beautiful moment between them and, really helped me recognize how impactful art can be because, you know, everybody said like, we thought it was a silly little tree.

[00:20:58] We didn’t have such high expectations for it. But now to know that they have that reminder, it definitely makes us feel very glad that we did that and glad that it helped them the way that it did.

[00:21:12] Sandie Morgan: Ari, would you talk about your experience as you were Like an assistant to the women when they started making their vision boards, you were cutting out letters and pictures.

[00:21:27] What was that like?

[00:21:28] Guests: Yeah, I was just about to say that that project, the Vision board project kind of comes off of the tree project. the vision board project was mostly. T cutting out pictures and writing down motivational, quotes and phrases that they felt connected to, and it was a vision board of their dreams and their aspirations and things that just make them, them.

[00:21:54] And. Something that was so beautiful was hearing their vision boards at the end, and they presented it to us and they shared their dreams of either making a spa or you know, going into cosmetology or building their own business or just simply going back to their home country and being with their family.

[00:22:12] And so it was just beautiful and. Honestly made us all kind of be teary-eyed from seeing how much these women have grown and how much these women love, the things that they are passionate about. And it was beautiful to even see their fa, like their families on these vision boards and how much they have these roots of deeper meaning of what they do.

[00:22:37] And so that was such a beautiful experience.

[00:22:40] Sandie Morgan: We could talk about. That part of our trip for the next hour. And so I’m in a transition to more of the best practices that we learned about. One of the things that I love about bringing classes to fiat here in Madrid is the behind the scenes professionals, and I’d like to hear what you observed as best Practices, and maybe were you surprised at how many people are behind the scenes in supporting this program?

[00:23:24] Guests: Well, coming here to Madrid and experience experiencing this with Fiat, I think I was not surprised at all with how many hands come together in order to make this work for the women, in order for these women to be in a safe space around it, surrounded with. Other women who either went through similar things.

[00:23:49] I think it was just good to see that there’s so many people involved that just want to help them and want to be there with them along through their journey. ’cause they know that even after everyth everything that happened to them, there’s still such a bigger and greater thing waiting for them. And I think I was just, I was just, it was just something beautiful to be able to see that there’s just so many people who just care for these women.

[00:24:16] it was shocking to see how many people, for me. Seeing how many people were a part of it. we were sitting down at dinner one night and just kind of counting all the women on our hands. And then we were thinking about, how many staff there are. And there’s almost an equivalent number of staff that there is of women, at the home thinking of the 24 hour care.

[00:24:38] And just all of the little things that go into it. And today we had an opportunity to actually go to, the Fiat office and it was really cool just seeing, the different. The different avenues that there are, with the nonprofit and just all of the different jobs that are so necessary, and they’re all equally as important and they’re all, what, contribute to making this whole thing come together, the lawyers, down to the.

[00:25:04] The communication part of it down to, even the receptionist at the office, like there were so many, little parts and they were all like such key players. Whether you’re working hands-on with the women or you’re in detection or you’re just taking phone calls, all of it, is so important and all of it is what just helps, like make everything possible.

[00:25:27] We need like all that willingness

[00:25:29] Sandie Morgan: when we were walking through and there were at least three staff members that their computer screens were covered with Excel spreadsheets. As they’re handling all the accounting, paying the bills, raising the money. providing the accountability for the grants and the donors.

[00:25:52] And they’re important members of the team. And when we talk about how can you get involved in anti-trafficking, there is a place for every professional. So, okay. I, I’m moving on to my next question, which is actually for Dr. Brenda. I would like to know. You’ve had a little time. You’ve spent time with our students.

[00:26:24] You flew here with them. They talked about their expectations and their excitement, and then you observed, and this is a group of women you’ve worked with for three years here in um, Fiat in Madrid, through your research and previous visits. So can you tell me who changed more?

[00:26:52] Our students or the participants in the home?

[00:26:57] Guests: Hmm. And that’s such a powerful question and I think one that we’ll continue to think about and reflect on, I think long after we leave Spain.

[00:27:08] what I’ve witnessed is a kind of, I think, mutual transformation. Really, and one that can only happen when people come together with humility and openness. And, acomedidas as we talked about earlier, and really a, a willingness to serve. when I arrived, with our students, and we talked about acomedidas,

[00:27:33] We’ve talked about this being a posture of the heart, and we talked about specific ways, and we talked about that they could do this, you know, that they could, they could show these actions. And we encouraged our students, to approach all of their experiences and their time at the home, not as guests, but as young women stepping into really a sacred space that we’ve been invited into.

[00:27:56] And to be ready to learn, to be ready to listen. And to be ready to help wherever they can. And they really did.and they got up and they washed dishes and they helped cook and they asked questions and they really made themselves available. And in doing so, I think they didn’t just serve that. I think they also connected and they were.

[00:28:19] Changed by the strength and the hospitality and the faith of the women in the home. I think they were inspired and I think this will have a lasting effect. And I think they saw up close really what, uh, resilience looks like.and at the same time, I think the women in the home were also touched by the students’ willingness to be present, to stand with.

[00:28:41] I think that they felt the love in this group of students coming from so far away. And by the amount of respect that they showed and the joy and the laughter that was shared and that they were here, not to fix or to judge, but to honor their journey and, just to offer conversation and smiles and laughter.

[00:29:04] And so maybe, you know, maybe not necessarily, one being changed more than the other about how, you know, being, I think being acomedidas, really created a space for both groups to be transformed side by side. And I think in the end, that’s what justice looks like, right? Not just lifting others up by, but walking with them in a shared humanity and allowing ourselves to be changed in that process together.

[00:29:32] Sandie Morgan: At

[00:29:33] the end, there was a big picnic. To celebrate a birthday, but it was also a celebration for the whole community. And we took a picture of our team and their team and no faces. You can’t tell who is who. And it was arms around each other. And it was for me a picture of, acomedida, And I’m gonna put it as the photo in the podcast, social media posts.

[00:30:11] So you guys that are listening, look for that and you’ll see what I think, acomedida looks like.

[00:30:21] now.

[00:30:22] the part that is the most important, because you guys are taking this class for credit, we’re recording this on our last night in Madrid. What will you take with you now for your career? Do you, did it create more questions than answers?

[00:30:44] What will you take with you? Who wants to go first?

[00:30:50] Guests: I know for me, I think it’s. The strength, the power, the love that these women do. Their job, to me isn’t easy. I feel like I’d be sad hearing their stories and just the hearts that are aching. It makes me feel upset that there is nothing that we can do. We can only watch from afar, especially this one day with the detection team, just seeing so many women being able to like.

[00:31:22] Accepting the help, but not being able to receive in that moment is just like, Ugh, I wish we can do more. So I know for me it’s, I really would love to do more of the detection part of helping these women, being able to give them the supplies that they need, give them the knowledge that they need, and just giving ’em to a safe place that they’re more than just their bodies.

[00:31:45] They’re more than what they offer. They’re smart. They’re so intelligent, they’re. Talented, especially through women’s from the safe home. They’re so ugh. They’re so amazing, and it’s just sad to think about that they were taken advantage of for the wrong reasons and not for their talents. So, long story short, just being able to do more.

[00:32:07] I think there is many things that I’m gonna take away from this trip. One of them being that I kind of talked about previously with the group is that this, this is happening in our neighborhoods. It’s not just happening in Madrid, it’s happening it our towns in our cities, and I live in Arizona and so.

[00:32:28] I’ve seen things like this and I’ve never truly realized that this was human trafficking until now, and I think it’s really put a huge impact on me wanting to be a voice for these women who can’t speak for themselves and just educate more people on. What is happening in their neighborhoods is right next door.

[00:32:51] And I think these women have taught me how to have strength and how to have courage in such hard situations. And they have taught me such, like a beautiful way of keep pushing through every, every circumstance. I think I’m taking away a dream with this. Um. And the trip has been a, I’ve been getting a lot of influences of, dreams and of hopes and aspirations, and these women have really taught me that and I’ve had so much struggle with accepting that I can have dreams and that I can have aspirations and seeing them be so.

[00:33:34] Fearless and not having that fear to dream has really inspired me. And it just reminds me of one of the quotes that one of them wrote on Our Tree of Life, and it’s translated from Spanish so it doesn’t sound as good, but it basically says that the fear exists. But the important part is that your dreams are bigger than it and.

[00:33:54] They have fear, they’ve been taken advantage of. They’ve had people who have, hurt them and who have made their dreams feel small and insignificant, but they still have hope. And so I now have been taught that it’s okay to dream. And this morning when we were discussing with Fiona. About some plans that they had had.

[00:34:14] They brought up a hotel and I switched my major from socio or from business to sociology when I was a sophomore, but I was originally going in as a hospitality business major. And so I’ve kind of always had this dream of having a business, but it felt a little self-serving. And so now to know that.

[00:34:34] Those dreams could still be true and I could still take on that position. But with so much purpose and with a purpose that means so much to me to be able to provide income to these business or to this non-profits and to be able to provide jobs to these women. There’s so many different things that encapsulates and it kind of felt like that last piece of the puzzle that I was missing from this trip when she brought that up.

[00:34:58] And then, yeah, so I am taking away a dream. And I’m not sure what that looks like, but a quote that Dr. Morgan and I agreed and shared was that I don’t remember Dr. Martin Luther King’s. I have a planned speech, but we all remember his speech about his dream.

[00:35:16] I think that I have a lot of takeaways from this, but no matter what career I end up going, what path God leads me to, I know that this will be one of the biggest impacts. I know that it will help me. For the greater good. I think it’ll definitely probably help me in my life now, being able to see if there’s somebody who is going through the same situation, something similar, even if it’s, it means being able to help them.

[00:35:47] If it’s just with a little simple conversation and just being there, I think it would definitely help just being there and realizing that there are more people who, who are going through, through these things. Everyone has me crying. Um,even just already reflecting on this trip, I feel so changed. I feel like my life I have always kind of looked for, Purpose. And I really did find that with faith and, coming here on this trip, like Delaney was kind of saying like, puzzle pieces are coming together. And there’s just such a refreshing feeling I have of knowing and reminding myself like, I’m young, I’m only 19.

[00:36:35] I have so much more to learn. This was just a glimpse. This was, this was just a glimpse of like, what, Of what we’re capable of doing, especially together with sisterhood. And, on the subway we were just discussing like how we each pulled a little bit of a different thing outta this trip. and how it’s just so special knowing that, knowing that we all have, We all have this hunger and we all have this pull towards a cause. A cause that is so great and it needs people who are passionate. ’cause it’s a hard thing. It’s a hard thing to listen to stories and, and, and they, they make you upset when you hear about ’em because they sound so unfair and you just like question humanity.

[00:37:22] And. It sometimes was like, wow, this seems so hopeless, but you, this kind of thing needs women and it needs people who are so passionate about it. and so I just think that my passion, I found my passion and, yeah, now going back and, and having three more years of college, I’m just gonna start looking for ways that I can just start doing things.

[00:37:47] Now, if that’s just educating, if that’s just conver in conversation, people are tossing around terms that are being inappropriately used, like it’s speaking up for the women and for the people who don’t have a voice. and yeah, there’s just so many little things, and I feel like we often overlook ’em, but it’s just.

[00:38:07] I just feel like this was just such a special trip. I feel like this was just the beginning of such a special thing, and even looking right now at everyone here, I’m just so like happy and proud of everyone and grateful that God brought me here.

[00:38:21] Sandie Morgan: I’m going to answer my own question. I don’t do that usually, but what I’m going to take with me is your faces, your passion, the Gen Z response to something I’ve been working on

[00:38:42] for 30 years and the resilience. To keep showing up, keep raising the money to take a team, keep pressing forward in the face of higher education challenges because making this a study abroad trip with goals for knowledge and understanding so that you are able to process.

[00:39:19] Best and pure and blameless. Like it says in Philippians, people hear me all the time. That is what we take back from this, and when I can’t climb the stairs anymore, I know that you will be climbing this hill and making a difference wherever you are.

[00:39:46] Thank you for joining us for this special episode of the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. We are so proud of our Vanguard students who stepped out of the classroom and into real world service, gaining a deeper understanding of what it means to fight human trafficking.

[00:40:10] If you wanna learn more about our global partnerships, including Fiat in Spain, you’ll find links and resources in our show notes@endinghumantrafficking.org. And while you’re there, don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. You can also follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn to stay connected.

[00:40:36] We’ll be back in two weeks.

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Derek Marsh joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss leveraging financial tools and intelligence as core investigative strategies to disrupt human trafficking operations and improve survivor restitution outcomes.

Derek MarshDerek Marsh is the Associate Director of the Global Center for Women and Justice and a deputy chief with extensive law enforcement experience. He has been a frequent guest on the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast and led a recent roundtable discussion on following the money in human trafficking investigations. His background includes hands-on experience with trafficking investigations and a deep understanding of the collaborative approaches needed to combat these complex crimes.

Key Points* Financial intelligence serves as a core investigative tool that provides a clearer perspective of criminal organizations than traditional methods relying on confidential informants or victim testimony. * Sophisticated money laundering patterns include funnel accounts, structured cash deposits, and geographically patterned movements that help traffickers hide the origin and legitimacy of their funds. * Financial investigations can expose connections between what appear to be separate crimes, revealing larger criminal enterprises rather than isolated “mom and pop” operations. * Suspicious Activity Reports (SARs) generated by banks when they detect unusual deposit patterns provide valuable intelligence for law enforcement agencies investigating trafficking operations. * Advanced software tools like those from Valid8 Financial can visualize complex transaction flows and present financial data in comprehensible formats for courts, making cases stronger and easier to prosecute. * Geographic analysis of financial flows reveals high-risk corridors between certain countries that banks monitor for potential criminal activity, such as Nigeria to Italy or Philippines to Europe pathways. * Human trafficking investigations require multi-agency collaboration because finances cross jurisdictional boundaries as easily as phone calls or internet connections. * Public-private partnerships with banks, corporations, NGOs, and faith-based organizations create interlocking layers of expertise that strengthen investigations globally. * Financial tools enable law enforcement to seize assets and freeze accounts tied to trafficking operations, providing funds for survivor restitution that has historically been difficult to collect. * Using financial intelligence reduces the burden on survivors to testify in court by providing concrete evidence that doesn’t require victim testimony to prove criminal enterprise operations. * The approach transforms financial intelligence into justice by treating human trafficking fundamentally as a financial crime that exploits people for profit. * Training law enforcement on financial investigative techniques and providing AI-enhanced tools are essential since most officers lack accounting expertise needed for complex financial analysis.

Resources* Derek Marsh * Valid8 Financial * Roundable Notes (coming soon) * 341 – Following the Money

Transcript[00:00:00] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode number 346, leveraging financial tools to disrupt human trafficking. I am very happy to be joined here in the studio by Global Center for Women and Justice Associate Director, deputy Chief Derek Marsh.

[00:00:28] We have been working together for a very long time and he’s been a frequent guest here on the podcast, so I’m not going to include a bio, but you can go back to the website and learn more from his perspective. By just searching our episodes with the name Derek Marsh. So we’re gonna dive right into the financial aspects.

[00:00:53] We recently interviewed David Tyree on following the money and we talked to, um, district attorney Ryann Jorban along the same lines.

[00:01:05] Today we’re going to look at this from a broader perspective, after having had a round table on following the money here at Vanguard University led by Derek Marsh, and let’s just get some understanding of what the key strategies and insights are.

[00:01:26] That we were able to glean from that round table, and that will lead us into some action steps. So welcome Derek.

[00:01:45] Derek Marsh: Thanks for having me again, Sandie.

[00:01:47] Sandie Morgan: So, who else was at the table?

[00:01:50] Derek Marsh: Well, besides you and myself, David Tyree, our expert from the, retired DEA agent, but also working with Valid8 Financial. Now, we also had Ryann Jorban, who’s an A DEA with Los Angeles, District Attorney’s Office, but we were also lucky enough to have a couple professors from here at Vanguard University.

[00:02:09] Professor Julius Angbor, who is a marketing and business expert, specifically in international business issues, focusing mostly in Africa and that region of the world. We also had assistant professor, Dr. Thomas Ropel, who was a retired FBI agent, who was able to focus on the collaborative strategies used by the federal agencies to work on human trafficking and exploitation types of investigations.

[00:02:35] We were also lucky to have assistant director of the US Department of Labor Wage in our division, Paul Chang, who was one of our favorites we’ve had on before. Uh, and he was able to discuss specifics about labor trafficking, where we’re finding a lot of labor trafficking occurring and how that process occurs.

[00:02:53] And we were also able to have, members, from Valid8 Financial actually show up and discuss their software and give us a demonstration to show how all these. incredible amounts of data that would take a regular person, you know, hours if not weeks, to put together their software is able to put together in a matter of minutes.

[00:03:12] It was amazing. So, we had a good group of people who we could discuss this with. And, and finally, I don’t wanna lose this out obviously, but we had, Linh Tran, who is our task force administrator, In charge of the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force has been for years, ever since even I was there.

[00:03:30] So that’s like dating myself or dating her, I’m not sure which, and finally we had, of course, John Cotton Richmond, who, was gracious enough to spend some time with us. He was our, previous human trafficking, czar, maybe that’s the wrong word to use, but that’s, you know, our previous human trafficking, director for the United States and the State Department.

[00:03:52] And he was also, actively participating in, in the discussion helping us understand, uh, federal perspectives and where we’re moving forward with financial investigations and the financial tools that can be used.

[00:04:05] Sandie Morgan: And, and I think this round table demonstrated how broad the element of following the money as across our movement.

[00:04:18] We’re looking at law enforcement, we’re looking at prosecutors, but there’s also this sense that the element of restitution is more attainable for better victim outcomes, and that’s what drove me. You all know my background in pediatric nursing, so a lot of this was foreign language for me. So while Derek and I break down an executive summary of what happened at that round table, I’m the one whoDoesn’t understand even what a forensic accountant does.

[00:04:54] So I’m gonna help stop him when it sounds a little too complicated so that I can put it into my normal context. Is that okay with you, Derek?

[00:05:11] Derek Marsh: Perfectly okay. Frankly, I don’t wanna pretend I’m an accountant at heart either, but I, I do love the numbers and I, I love the fact that, uh, numbers don’t lie. That the reality is that they can hide things, hide people, hide locations, hide phone numbers. But when you get ahold of the accounts and you’re able to track those accounts and where money’s moving, it really gives you a crystal clear perspective of the

[00:05:33] criminal organization that is running any kind of a human trafficking operation.

[00:05:39] Sandie Morgan: So our first. Key strategy is built around the aspect of financial intelligence as a core investigative tool. And when I first started hearing the group around the table talk about financial intelligence, I kind of reduced it to my understanding of, oh, we need financial literacy. And then I began to see there was a huge world I had never explored, and that is an area of data that, we need to understand.

[00:06:18] Can you unpack that for us?

[00:06:20] Derek Marsh: I will try. Again, Um, still getting to know, some specifics about this, but lemme go back to a time when I was actually wearing uniform and we were doing investigations where we would run into these sex trafficking operations, labor trafficking organizations, and

[00:06:36] we would look for money. We really couldn’t find that much of it. And we’re trying to figure out why is that? We know money’s a major, major motivator for this, and saving money’s great, but we know that they were also producing money and we just couldn’t seem to get a hold of it. Understanding that financial intelligence as a core investigative tool kind of flipped the switch for me.

[00:06:54] As far as perspective with the idea is instead of looking at any organization is basically a financial, Method to which finances are moved. You know, places are supported, people are supported, people are charged. All of that became kind of, it almost felt like saying “duh”, because it was just so intrinsically basic that we’ve been relying so much on.

[00:07:19] confidential informants or going on the web and trying to solicit, people to in initiate an investigation or maybe relying on past, victim survivors who could share with us what they thought was going on. Whereas if we were to go into these, financial records of these different organizations, we would’ve had a much cleaner perspective and been much less reliant on our victim survivors to provide evidence to substantiate these criminal organizations.

[00:07:48] Sandie Morgan: So some of the patterns that you’re looking for, use terminology. That is new to me. “Funnel accounts”, “structured cash deposits”, “geographically patterned movements”. Can you break that down a little bit?

[00:08:06] Derek Marsh: I will try, but it’s still, it’s still a little bit of Greek to me as well. The idea here is that you have certain accounts that roll over and are pushed forward to different, different locations.

[00:08:17] So you might start at this bank and then have it a certain amount rolled over to the next account, then a following bank account. So you have to, there’s actually a trail that’s left, but the more they move it, the more difficult it is. To identify where the money initially came from and it, and its legitimacy also, you find that they move locations as well.

[00:08:36] So maybe you start with a bank here in the United States of America, but then you’re at the Grand Caymans and maybe you’re in Switzerland next and maybe you’re wherever. And it keeps making circles coming back to where people are able to access it. So by the time you see the money or those people are able to access the money, It’s so deep into this, electronic transferring that anybody just looking at normal accounts would see transfers in and out, but they wouldn’t be able to follow the money from the point of origin where the trafficking occurred or where the money’s being, taken to the point where it’s actually being used to facilitate organizational goals and missions, which in this case are criminal.

[00:09:16] So. These types of operational dynamics are important for us to understand how this organization is structured and also understands how extensive that organization may be. We, you know, we talk about mom and pop organizations versus criminal enterprises. Will the financials really support? Whether it something is really just a mom and pop organization, maybe just does one or two jumps in a financial stream and it stops, versus having criminal enterprises where it may, it may have 15, 20, 30 different stops at.

[00:09:49] Different bank accounts may not even seem to be cross related to the bank account before or after, but then in essence are the way that they’re hiding this money, they’re funneling this money, they’re laundering this money basically, to make it more, seem more legitimate, so that the organization can use it to further their criminal enterprise.

[00:10:07] Sandie Morgan: So that kind of financial investigation can actually expose those kind crimes that are connected and that we’re looking at them as separate crimes, but they’re really part of

[00:10:22] a network, an enterprise is the language that you’re using.

[00:10:26] Derek Marsh: Right. I, I look back at some of the things we, we found when we were doing our investigation, some of what we considered mom and pop organizations for sex trafficking and for labor trafficking.

[00:10:36] And now having, again, Paul Chans insight into how these are, are run. Also, seeing how these financial insights can be provided. It makes me wonder if we were just being naive and shortsighted and not realizing that they, they all worked the same way, but they didn’t seem connected. But if we’d take the time, had the resources to follow the money, that I think we would’ve found that there were a lot more connections and a lot larger criminal enterprise than we initially suspected.

[00:11:01] Sandie Morgan: And from my side of the perspective on victim services, victim, restitution, one of the things that happens when you start using finance as a core investigative tool is.

[00:11:20] We can prove things without making a survivor testify in court, publicly facing her abuser. So there’s some intangible rewards, not just financial.

[00:11:37] So I, I was thinking about the structured cash deposits that are part of what they follow and I remember someone talking at their table about how they avoid being detected by some of the alerts we have in accounts by depositing just under the limit before it rises to the level of investigation.

[00:12:05] And our group talked about how the SAR can be part of our strategies. What is that?

[00:12:15] Derek Marsh: So SAR stands for “suspicious activity reports” that banks are required to share with different agencies. If they find a singular deposit or a pattern of deposits they, they believe might be. Generated through criminal enterprise.

[00:12:33] Now, how they determine that I’m gonna defer to David Tyree every day of the week. ’cause I mean, he’s the man when it comes to understanding that and articulating better. However, what these reports are do is they’re, they’re, they’re sent to various federal agencies, which can either act upon them or not act upon them.

[00:12:51] The challenge is if they’re able to take those reports and able to go through the various deposits and movement of money sufficiently to be able to establish any kind of pattern or practice behavior. And obviously I think most, most people who don’t understand accounting, and I’m gonna have to raise my hand here and say I’m not an accountant.

[00:13:13] I don’t even pretend to be one. Are gonna have a hard time looking at some of those numbers. ’cause my extent, my sense of understanding is like looking at my paycheck, sorry, looking at my paycheck and following it into my bank account and realize it got deposited there. I’m pumped. So these are way more complicated and way more intricate.

[00:13:29] And as a result they were, that’s when David and our, our, our friends from Valid8 Financial, were able to. Demonstrate how their software is able just to take these sheets and sheets of papers and make sense out of it and connect the dots, where just looking at a document would prove nothing other than, yeah, I’m looking at a document.

[00:13:48] It looks like an Excel spreadsheet that has no intrinsic meaning to me, and no way of connecting the dots.

[00:13:54] Sandie Morgan: So visualizing those transaction flows instead of just, engaging in actual accounting, adding up the numbers is a different way of using financial intelligence in the investigation process.

[00:14:16] And if you wanna go back and listen to our interview with David Tyree, it’s episode number 341. And frankly, I had to listen to it three times, so you might wanna set aside a little extra time because there’s a lot of, content in his explanation. And I think it’s important for us as local advocates, even though this seems like it’s way beyond, what the average person is going to be able to apply

[00:14:51] It does give us an edge in asking questions and finding ways to get the right people with that expertise at our table in our courts and our, investigations.

[00:15:08] Derek Marsh: Sandie, you mentioned courts, and I think it’s important we remember that the, the beauty of some of this investigative tools and these methods and this software is that it presents this data in a comprehensible format. So instead of an investigator testifying, “Hey, you may not see it, but I’m telling you it’s really there”, and everyone’s saying, well, that’s not quite good enough to prove evidentiary value, they’re able to create re.

[00:15:32] Ports showing link analysis and other types of pictures and images that represent flows of money back and forth, who it’s going to, what accounts it’s coming to and from the amount that it’s coming to and from making it. Very easy for both prosecutors, defense attorneys, suspects, and our judges to have a better understanding of what’s being presented in court so they can decide if this really does substantiate the claim that these persons or individual is part of a criminal enterprise.

[00:16:07] Sandie Morgan: So, I know that. With the kind of data that’s out there. Now, my family knows where I am most of the time. I’m assuming that probably my financial institution can figure out where I am depositing money from or withdrawing if I’m withdrawing from an ATM in another country.

[00:16:32] And this aspect of investigation that is location centered seems to be able to add to our ability to corroborate a victim’s story in other elements in, in our investigation. Can you expand on that?

[00:16:54] Derek Marsh: Sure. So I mean, and what, like you were saying, if some credit cards are generous, some are not so generous. You know, you can leave the country if you don’t notify your credit card, they’ll shut down any transaction occurs internationally.

[00:17:05] But I get notifications every once in a while saying, “Hey, is this particular activity relevant to you? Did you actually charge this to your account?” And I think we’ve all experienced that to some degree. Technology’s kind of a world where the, the, the bank has an algorithm. They have a way that you usually spend your money and if something falls outside those parameters, they’re checking in on you.

[00:17:26] They don’t wanna inherit that debt, especially if you’re gonna deny it. Well, that same thing works on the international level as well. The idea that there are certain streams, location to location of financial flow that have a high chance of being suspect of criminal activity. For instance, there’s a Nigeria, Italy,

[00:17:46] pathway of funds that it makes, banks quiver in their, in their, in their vaults, if you will, to, to realize that maybe something isn’t all, all right in Denmark there, or maybe the Philippines to Europe. I mean, all of these, and there are multiple, many, many more of those, but I’m just throwing a couple off.

[00:18:04] The idea being that certain location, two locations can potentially raise red flags. That there is potential criminal activity gone. Even if it’s the transactions, it may seem legitimate. Even if it’s going from a church to a church or it’s going from a gov apparent government organization to apparent government organization or a government organization to an NGO, they are able to look, they’re able to see those risk-based locations, risk-based, transactions, and they’re able to generate either those suspicious activity reports.

[00:18:37] or they’re able to pay more attention to those to see if they need to generate an SARI to let law enforcement know there may be illicit crimes occurring. And these particular corridors are funneling locations are being used to facilitate that criminal enterprise.

[00:18:57] Sandie Morgan: So that geographical piece leads me then into thinking about how some of our old paradigms for investigation that, have to do with, this is my territory. this, my investigation ends at the county line.

[00:19:17] How do we overcome that by creating some way to collaborate across that kind of geographical, restriction?

[00:19:28] Derek Marsh: I think from day one, we just have to accept that human trafficking cannot be done on an island.

[00:19:35] You just cannot have one agency that is responsible for an entire case. I think I’ve told the story before where on the first trafficking investigation, we tried to try to do it independently. I was kind of arrogant. I felt like, Hey, we’ve done other investigations without outside help. I should be able to handle this internally.

[00:19:53] And found out very quickly the complications involving victim witness assistance. the complications involved with having international, suspects involved, having international connections involved where they were transported from a foreign country here to the us. All of those things were way outside my capabilities handling.

[00:20:12] So you have to collaborate, you have to have multiple agencies getting together to work this out. And now we’re finding that, And not really a surprise, but I think just something that just doesn’t normally hit in most investigations from a local or even a, a county based investigative team is we need to look at finances as being ultimately the most mobile thing out there.

[00:20:33] I mean, think about it, our phones, cross state and country barriers. Without a blink, we, you know, I can call and we’ve done it. Now, we’ve done our travels, we’ve called home. No, no. It sounds like we’re next door. It is. No big deal. So same thing with finances. They get moved as quick as you can. Your internet connections are bouncing all over the world, you know, as they validate and go across different countries and different states and different, areas.

[00:20:55] So it’s not surprising to find that we have to think if human trafficking is being a much more sophisticated financial network than we originally suspected.

[00:21:07] Sandie Morgan: So, you know me, I’m not an athlete and I, I resist all of those sports analogies, but for me, when I started beginning to understand the conversation around that table about all that bouncing

[00:21:23] It’s like we have to have our teams where we’re passing the ball between the players, the players in the uk, the players in Africa, those kinds of global models, And how do we do that when, It can’t all fit through governments because often the governments don’t have those kinds of connections.

[00:21:52] Derek Marsh: Well, and that’s where you come with your public private partnerships. That’s when you’re looking at connecting businesses together that might be able to support or help validate what’s going on.

[00:22:01] A bank is a business, if you wanna think of it that way. Yeah. Corporations, right? So, you wanna think of NGOs. ’cause here’s the thing. Not all NGOs just stay in one spot and they’re singular. We have international NGOs all over the place that we can connect with and move forward. We have faith-based organizations that are internationally, located.

[00:22:20] So if you need help identifying people or providing resources, or even being able to host, you know, investigators when they go to these different locations, then they’re out there as well too. I think that there are a, a group there, there’s a large number of opportunities here where your private groups, your, especially your business partners, your corporations, can really contribute significantly and positively to not only providing, helping provide the tools that make these investigations so much more coherent and understandable to judges and prosecutors and to investigators, but also the idea that these public-private partnerships help build multiple groups of interlocking layers so that they leverage everyone’s expertise to create a greater whole than they would ever have individually.

[00:23:15] Sandie Morgan: Wow.

[00:23:17] It’s still a bit complicated. I may have to listen to this episode three times, but, I wanna come down to the reason I was at the table, the idea of survivor centered restitution and financial empowerment. How is this going to be more than just about catching the bad guys another way to capture somebody?

[00:23:43] Derek Marsh: Well, Sandie, I share your frustration.

[00:23:45] I know in California and just about every state in the United States, including our federal government, restitution is mandatory. Our victim survivors need to get money to compensate them, for them to start standing up on their own and re recompense them for what’s occurred to them. You can’t unwind and exploitation.

[00:24:01] I’m not pretending that, but at least you could put, put them in a better financial position moving forward, so they can be, have a better chance for success. So when you’re using financial software to identify the account and identify the amounts of money, who the players are, the locations that there are, how they’re spending or not spending the money, this allows you to be able to do what cops love to do is seize things right?

[00:24:24] And obviously legally we’re not just out there just to robber bear in the world. But the idea here is that if we’re able to find this money that historically has been so difficult and so ephemeral and difficult hold of, now we can find these bank accounts that are. Obviously facilitating the criminal enterprise, lock those monies down and then start using that money to pay restitution to our victim survivors based on whatever the amounts are that are reasonable and are mandated by whatever statute you’re following.

[00:24:56] In addition to that, besides just having your victim. Victims be compensated, or survivors being compensated. This can, all, this money can also be put together to help, fund further investigations and to fund further victim services. So it, it works for everybody. It’s a win-win across the board. The criminal enterprise loses the money upon which it’s, it’s based, it’s gonna be disrupted if not dismantled the,

[00:25:22] Victims are getting restitution. And maybe even if we’re, if we have, we’re able to find sufficient funds, maybe even get a little compensation for the time of during the investigation and for the victim services that are going to have been provided and will need to be provided moving forward. ’cause you know, our victims just don’t get better the minute they’re released from the are liberated from these situations.

[00:25:43] And finally, it’s also something that we can do as far as making it clear for the courts. So that we can make sure that these people are held accountable. Maybe not just criminally, but also civilly and administratively as well. Paying fines to those agencies that have been, circumvented those rules that have been ignored so that we can help support other agencies out there and other, public-private partnerships, if you will, to move forward and sustain the effort that we’re trying to maintain.

[00:26:15] Sandie Morgan: So let’s think through, if we want to call our listeners to action, what are some areas that deserve our attention?

[00:26:26] We don’t know all the answers, but we are going to be seeking out experts to provide this kind of knowledge base on

[00:26:35] the ending Human Trafficking podcast. So let’s talk about that.

[00:26:39] Derek Marsh: Well, I think number one, and it sounds like, I think this is the answer just about everything we started, it was like training, training, training.

[00:26:45] We have to get people to articulate better that I’m articulating to you now, but to to not only articulate, but understand the importance and significance of using financial tools and financial investigative techniques to supplement human trafficking investigations and show positive results. I think that’s number one.

[00:27:04] Number two, you’ve gotta find ai, you know, artificial intelligence enhanced tools to help us do that work. Because the reality is there are many, many officers out in the field over a hundred thousand, right? But guess what? Not all of ’em are accountants. In fact, I would guess most of ’em are not. And I think that.

[00:27:20] That’s why you need these tools to supplement the efforts and make them work well. The other thing we need to understand is there is cross border legal and data sharing frameworks. We need to understand, respect, and follow to make sure our investigations aren’t. usurped by evidentiary problems or by misunderstandings across borders so we can make sure that we hold everyone accountable and liberate the people who need to liberate as well.

[00:27:48] And finally, we have to maintain, like we always do, our survivor victim-centered, trauma-informed approach across the board, enhance those restitutions that we are unfortunately not capable of enforcing all the time. Even though they may be levied against a group, they may not be able to afford it and they’re not able to afford it ’cause we can’t identify the financial

[00:28:11] pathways and the accounts and all of the intricacies involved with the whole finance of these operations. But if we have this software, we’re able to freeze those accounts, you know, use those SAR effectively, then we’ll be able to recoup much more money.

[00:28:27] Provide those needed services and they that can be paid for through the restitutions and help these people start in a much better place than square one with dime zero and having to rely and continue to rely on other people to move forward in their lives.

[00:28:45] Sandie Morgan: I think my favorite quote at the end of the round table regarding survivors

[00:28:55] is that this kind of investigative tool translates financial intelligence into justice.

[00:29:03] Wow. Um. Ultimately, human trafficking is a financial crime. Ambassador Richmond wanted to be at the table because that has been his mantra from the time he was a DOJ attorney all the way through his, service at the State Department, and so many people in this movement. Are beginning to grasp that this is not just a horrific human rights issue.

[00:29:39] It’s not just about sexual exploitation. Even when we use the word exploitation, it implies a financial crime. So we need to up our game in having tools. To investigate the financial side of things. So we wanna call you to start doing your own digging, find out what tools are there, and look up our friends at

[00:30:07] Valid8 Financial. Go online and read the executive summary. It has citations for many of the things we’ve talked about here. See a list of the people who are around the table. Find somebody in your area. Begin to develop partnerships and together we will start making financial intelligence a part of our understanding and a part of our toolkit in this battle to combat human trafficking.

[00:30:41] Derek, thanks for showing up again.

[00:30:43] Derek Marsh: Thanks for having me show up. I appreciate it.

[00:30:45] Sandie Morgan: And if you are new to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, please go on over to the ending human trafficking website, subscribe and you’ll be notified when a new episode drops every two weeks. Find out what we’re doing.

[00:31:06] follow our survivor voices, check out our resources, and come back in two weeks for the next episode.

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Ryann Gerber Jorban joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss how labor exploitation functions as a hidden form of modern-day slavery, and how community collaboration, empathy, and survivor-centered strategies are critical in addressing labor trafficking.

Ryann Gerber JorbanRyann Gerber Jorban is a seasoned prosecutor with the Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Office, where she has served since 1998. With a background in sociology from UC Riverside and a law degree from the University of Michigan, she has devoted her career to seeking justice for vulnerable communities, including children, the elderly, and survivors of abuse and human trafficking. In her role as Deputy in Charge, she leads both the Economic Justice and Labor Justice Units, focusing on wage theft, labor exploitation, and fraud. Ryann is nationally recognized for her survivor-centered approach, combining legal expertise with a deep commitment to collaboration, trust building, and meeting survivors’ foundational needs. She was also a featured speaker at the 2025 Ensure Justice Conference, where she shared her insights on labor trafficking and the exploitation of children.

Key Points* Ryann Gerber Jorban describes labor exploitation as a spectrum, with wage theft on one end and labor trafficking on the other, highlighting how quickly one can escalate into the other. * Her role involves leading efforts to address wage theft and labor fraud, particularly in sectors vulnerable to exploitation such as construction, restaurants, and healthcare. * Labor trafficking often relies on coercion rather than force, such as threats of deportation or withholding pay, to control vulnerable workers. * She explains that being paid less than minimum wage does not disqualify a situation from being trafficking—it’s about how a person is controlled or coerced. * In a case involving garment workers, individuals were found working 55 hours a week for just $5–$6 an hour, illustrating severe labor violations. * She emphasizes building legal cases without placing the burden on the victim, allowing survivors time to stabilize before contributing to legal proceedings. * Ryann integrates Maslow’s hierarchy of needs into her legal strategy, ensuring victims have basic needs met before asking them to participate in investigations. * She highlights the role of community-based organizations in providing culturally competent care and case management for victims. * The importance of collaboration across law enforcement, nonprofits, faith communities, and local agencies is key to supporting survivors and combating labor trafficking. * Consumers have a role to play by asking ethical questions and avoiding businesses with exploitative labor practices. * Disasters create heightened risks for labor exploitation, and vigilance is needed during rebuilding efforts to ensure ethical labor is used. * Faith communities are uniquely positioned to help identify signs of exploitation and educate their congregations in simple, practical ways.

Resources* Ryann Gerber Jorban on LinkedIn * Ensure Justice Conference 2025 – Ryann’s Presentation

Transcript[00:00:00] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women. Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice. Make a difference in ending human trafficking.

[00:00:22] Today I am joined by Ryann Gerber Jorban, a seasoned prosecutor with the Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Office. She has served there since 1998. With a background in sociology from uc, Riverside, and a law degree from the University of Michigan, she has devoted her career to seeking justice for vulnerable communities, including children, the elderly survivors of abuse.

[00:00:54] Human trafficking victims in her role as deputy in charge. She leads both the economic justice and labor justice units focusing on wage theft. Labor exploitation and fraud. Ryann is nationally recognized for her survivor-centered approach, combining legal expertise with a deep commitment to collaboration, trust building, and meeting survivors foundational needs. We were honored to have Ryann join us as a speaker at this year’s. Ensure Justice Conference 2025. She shared her insight on labor trafficking and the exploitation of children.

[00:01:39] Well, welcome to the ending Human Trafficking podcast, Ryann Gerber Jor. What is it like to be deputy in charge?

[00:01:49] Ryann Gerber Jorban: it’s basically the same as being a deputy district attorney, but with more work.

[00:01:54] Sandie Morgan: More work. Oh, I thought it would be more fun because you’d have more power. I liked the in charge part of your title.

[00:02:01] Ryann Gerber Jorban: the in charge part is nice. It’s very funny. In our office, deputy in charge is actually the lowest level of management. I think they give us that in charge part. So, we feel power even though we have very little. But, I. I will say it is the fun always feels bad when you’re talking about, crime and victims, but it is the most fun I have ever had in my career.

[00:02:24] it’s fulfilling. It’s exciting. It’s a little crazy, but it’s definitely the best job I’ve had so far in the DA’s office and I’ve loved all 26 years of my life in the DA’s office. So that’s saying a lot.

[00:02:37] Sandie Morgan: Oh, I love that. And for our listeners, she is smiling while she’s saying that, and I’ve known Ryann for a while now and her smile is very authentic. And Ryann, your deputy in charge, full title is Economic Justice and Labor Justice Units. So explain why that is such a fun job. Yeah.

[00:03:00] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Yeah, so I’m part of, um, so I work for LA County District Attorney’s office, part of our consumer protection Division. It’s the bigger division and we protect consumers from all kinds of levels of fraud. And, back in, 2017, uh. Jackie Lacey, who was the DA at the time, and a wonderful human being. she, started the, what we called at the time, the Notario Fraud Unit, and we now call it the Economic Justice Unit because it’s more expansive in what we cover, but it was basically protecting vulnerable communities from fraud that is.

[00:03:38] Pointed at them because of their vulnerabilities. Their vulnerabilities make them, much more likely to be victimized, than other people. And, I got to be the first, da. I had a boss and then it was me. I was the first trial lawyer in there. And it was the, it was amazing.I’ve worked with vulnerable victims as a sex crimes and domestic violence and child abuse prosecutor for most of my career.

[00:04:01] And so this was a natural. Shift and no one was really helping these people in the same way that we were, and I was really proud of that.

[00:04:08] Sandie Morgan: I love that. So that’s a good way to segue, into where our conversation is gonna go today.

[00:04:16] You’ve called labor exploitation, a form of modern day slavery. Can you unpack what that means in your work and why the public should even care?

[00:04:29] Ryann Gerber Jorban: So we tend to get, very focused on the word trafficking. And Sandie, you’ve heard me say this, like ad naum, trafficking’s important trafficking. Is a powerful way to move our messaging. But what we have to understand is labor exploitation is a spectrum, and on one end is trafficking. On the first end is not being paid what you’re owed, but it’s, even though it’s a spectrum, it’s very short journey from one to the other.

[00:04:56] and so when I say labor exploitation, we don’t treat workers and give them their rights and protect them. In the workplace, we are treating them as less than human. And no one deserves to be treated as less than human. I don’t care what you’ve done. everything we read from the Constitution to the Bible to philosopher says, how we treat the least of us is what we will be measured by.

[00:05:22] And so I truly believe that. So, The, the labor exploitation, leads us to dehumanize those who work and those who work are why we exist. So, that’s my little philosophical part of that. but the bigger part is labor exploitation’s a crime and you’re stealing from people. I don’t like that. I, I’m, I’m not a big fan of that.

[00:05:45] Sandie Morgan: All right. So I love how you pulled in the moral aspect, and I hope that your words and the knowledge in what we’re learning today about this will help our listeners and generally our public to be able to identify why they care about labor trafficking. Because as you and I have talked about, sex trafficking gets a. Lot more of the attention and it deserves attention. But labor trafficking deserves the same level of attention, and we can do a better job reporting and being eyes and ears in our community.

[00:06:31] So let’s talk about wage. These sound like kind of boring things. Again,

[00:06:38] labor trafficking doesn’t have all of the sexy conversation, that we sometimes come to expect in the human trafficking conversations.

[00:06:50] So let’s talk about how do wage theft and force labor show up in Los Angeles County, and then we’ll move into what can we do to better identify those crimes?

[00:07:06] Ryann Gerber Jorban: So, there’s certain. Areas that are ripe for wage theft and, and forced labor. they tend to be lower paid. They tend to need a lot of workers. They tend to have, a lot of, movement across workers, and especially in LA County or Southern California. They’re going to be primarily filled.

[00:07:29] Not primarily, but very largely filled by people who are either undocumented or undocumented. So their power is very low, right? and their need is very high. And when you have high need and low power, you are extremely vulnerable to being mistreated, and In LA County, we see a lot of that, of course in construction, car washes,restaurants, healthcare,these are areas where we really can have a huge.

[00:08:03] Problem that no one sees, right? Because you go into a illicit massage business, you’re gonna see what’s going on. You go into a restaurant, you’re not necessarily gonna see that the dishwasher’s not being paid more than $5 an hour, and that dishwasher doesn’t have a choice, right? He can’t get a job ’cause he’s here undocumented.

[00:08:24] He has a family back either back in his home country or here that he has to.

[00:08:31] He, is at the absolute power of his employer who can fire him, who can choose to pay him or not pay him that day, and who can threaten to have him deported if he is not happy with him.

[00:08:46] Sandie Morgan: Wow. All of that sounds like the definition of coercion.

[00:08:50]

[00:08:50] Ryann Gerber Jorban: There’s two definitions that work. We see a lot of debt bondage, which is where somebody says, you owe me this money and you have to work for me till you pay it off, or, I owe you this money and I’m not going to give it to you until X date occurs and you have to continue to work for me Until then, so it’s.

[00:09:09] I’ll gladly have you work today, but I’ll pay you next Tuesday.

[00:09:12] Sandie Morgan: Hmm.

[00:09:13] So let me ask this because you’re talking about,

[00:09:16] $5 an hour, and the minimum wage here in California right now is $16 an hour,

[00:09:24] Ryann Gerber Jorban: so we have a case that we just settled that was a garment worker case, and the garment workers were working 55 hours a week and be making, roughly five to $6 an hour.

[00:09:36] Sandie Morgan: Wow. So here’s the question people ask me in general community settings. So if they’re getting paid, then I can’t report it as human trafficking, even if it’s not at minimum wage. So what’s that gray area? Does the fact that they are getting paid $5 an hour eliminate a trafficking case?

[00:10:04] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Not at all. So what you’re being paid actually is less, of an issue as to how you are being controlled. So labor, forced labor trafficking is the somebody having to work based on force fear or coercion force is what we tend to think of traditionally, right? They’re in

[00:10:29] Sandie Morgan: White van kidnapped.

[00:10:32] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Yeah. and, and we have that same mindset with sex trafficking too, by the way.

[00:10:36] I’ve done sex trafficking, so I’m real familiar with both ends of that spectrum. But, we’re not talking about chained up people at the side of the road. Okay. Or in a field being beaten. So force is there. There’s lots of violence. There’s guns, there’s threats, there’s, I have, I have one case right now where they threatened to murder them, but that is not the primary driver here.

[00:11:01] The primary is gonna be the fear. I’m going to call ice. I’m gonna have your children taken away by DCFS. I know someone in the mafia or in the organized crime who’s going to do something to you. or, your family back home will pay for this. So that’s the fear. And then the coercion is controlling them somehow, keeping their visas, keeping their documents.

[00:11:30] Holding onto their pay, saying to agricultural workers. We see this a lot in ag. Um,I’ll pay you when the, when the, when the, the harvest is done. So these people are working 6, 8, 10 weeks, but they’re not getting paid till the end of that time

[00:11:49] and

[00:11:49] they can’t leave if they walk away from that work.

[00:11:53] They’re not gonna get what they’re already owed. and of course by the time you get to the end of that, they don’t have a lot of power to get that money back ’cause they can’t take the work back, right? So they take whatever they can get. So coercion, controlling them and, exploiting their vulnerabilities and their desperate need, is what keeps people enforced labor.

[00:12:18] And it’s that imbalance of power that creates an opportunity for someone to exploit or abuse another person. And we see that across the spectrum in family violence, in child abuse. In, worker complaints, but here it is significantly amplified by the extreme vulnerability. When we’re talking about children who are in this space, kids who have been rescued from labor trafficking often are unaccompanied refugee minors. or the children of undocumented, or as you say, not fully documented, parents. Can you use some of the elements of the case you worked on with the Guatemalan youth to give us a little better understanding there?

[00:13:21] Yeah, we were involved, uh, tangentially in that case, but I’m very aware of it. I helped, I, I actually spoke to them about kind of what their rights were and things and, so. Chicken processing plants in LA County. There’s a large number of them who knew

[00:13:39] Sandie Morgan: I know. It was a big surprise for me

[00:13:41] too.

[00:13:42] Ryann Gerber Jorban: And, for whatever reason we see across the country in meat and chicken processing and egg processing, a large number of Guatemalan.

[00:13:52] migrants who are working in those areas, and there’s often a lot of labor trafficking. And that’s a, maybe we could talk about that topic another time about why, but, the, here in LA County we had that, we had a case that was handled by the Department of Labor Wage and Hour Division. And when they went in, they found, migrant teens.

[00:14:16] I believe the age range was 14 to 17. working in this chicken processing plant cleaning. Cutting chicken into pieces, things like this. And all of these kids have been brought up here as unaccompanied minors.and if you think about the vulnerabilities of an adult.

[00:14:34] Then you add that to being a 15-year-old kiddo who thinks that, who not only thinks, but is truly their family’s only hope back in Guatemala.

[00:14:44] So, you know, they screw up here. Their family in Guatemala loses their land at best, loses their lives at worst. Right? And my 15-year-old can barely wipe down the counters. Don’t tell her I said that. We won’t let her hear this part, you know, and,

[00:15:02] And, if I threaten her, with losing her ability to go out on the weekend, that works really well.

[00:15:08] I can’t imagine what these kids feel. I can’t imagine the terror and pressure they feel.

[00:15:15] Sandie Morgan: So that’s a great segue into one of the things that I love about you, because you can imagine, and, and I think we could define that capacity to imagine that trauma, that pain as empathy that really marks your leadership with a victim centered approach. So.my first question about how you put survivors first as you build a case around human needs, I’ve heard you speak about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs

[00:15:53] in relation to the victims. so how does that actually shape your legal strategy?

[00:16:02] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Yeah. So, you know, Maslow’s Triangle is the idea that we have to have certain base needs met in a, in progression before we can get to a higher level of. Ability to work in the world, right? So if you don’t know where you’re going to eat, what you’re going to eat that night, or as a mom, I always go back to my kids.

[00:16:24] If my, I don’t know how I’m feeding my kids that night, I’m not really gonna care about self-esteem. Like, like it’s not gonna be high on my level ’cause I have these basic needs. So when I’m building a legal case, I need to recognize that the people who are being mistreated. Are just trying to survive at these lower levels of Maslow’s Triangle, and I don’t have that experience.

[00:16:47] I am blessed. I don’t know what that feels like. and so I need to be sure that I’m, keeping that in mind. So when I build a case, what I try to do is build the case without the victim or our, our person who’s being, mistreated to carry the case.

[00:17:08] Are not my primary witness. My primary witness is gonna be other things that I can prove without their participation or with minimal participation.

[00:17:17] So not did they abuse you, but did you get to have a lunch break? I can build a case on the failure to pay someone for their lunch break. Break, and then once they are. Once we file that case and we’re doing well with it, and they get stabilized. They get case management and services and a, a job and immigration services, and they now know where they’re going to eat.

[00:17:43] They have a safe place to live. Their kids are safe now they are high enough on Maslow’s to help me. With a much more serious case. So my belief is we try the case we have in front of us, we don’t put it on the shoulder of our victims. And then as we give our victims the support and stabilization they need through our partners in the nonprofit world, then we utilize their strength to build a a, a more serious case if possible.

[00:18:11] Sandie Morgan: So using this legal strategy, how effective has that been in For me, the real justice part of this is more focused on. How the victims, receive restitution. I know it’s good to put the bad guys in prison, but, how effective has this strategy been in that respect, because that is a survivor first focus.

[00:18:41] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Yeah. So when we, are doing these cases, our primary interest is getting our, survivors. Two things when we first come into contact with them. you know, best practice and we’re still working on this. I am a work in progress, Lord knows, um, literally, Is making sure that we are working with our nonprofit partners who work with these communities.

[00:19:03] I am, can’t tell ’cause voice, but I am a white, middle class suburban mom who literally drives a minivan and used to go to soccer games. Now I go to band. I am a band mom, right? I do not have the cultural knowledge of other communities outside of mine. None of us do. We know our culture. So for our own cultural intelligence, which is a thing, we have to utilize people who have that cultural intelligence to assist us.

[00:19:32] it is arrogance and hubris to think that we can understand somebody else’s culture well enough to. give them what they need culturally and supportively. But by going to a community organization, I love working with the Thai Community Development Center. ’cause even though Thai is in their name,they understand this and they have people from all different cultures who can help the subsets of people.

[00:19:56] They help.

[00:19:57] Sandie Morgan: The Thai CDC, helps stabilize provide case management and provide legal structure for our victims, and that allows us to, move them up Maslow’s Triangle in a culturally appropriate way. When we try to do that without the cultural appropriation, it’s not gonna work. But when we do that, we are putting them first in their needs first.

[00:20:22] Ryann Gerber Jorban: And I think I got off topic.

[00:20:24] Sandie Morgan: No, you’re good. You’re good. And,

[00:20:26] Ryann I’ve heard you use this phrase before and to kinda sum up this, putting survivors first part of our conversation, you said you want to build a case with a survivor instead of around them. what does that look like in real life?

[00:20:49] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Slight,

[00:20:50] tangent. You know, we talk a lot about the words victim, survivor, rescue, all of these things. We’re not the center of these cases. It, it’s not what we need. We should be focusing on in these cases, it’s what the person who went through it needs that we should be focusing on. And so when I say with, I need to meet the survivor where they are, I cannot force them to meet the me where I need them to be.

[00:21:17] That’s just unrealistic and that’s why we can’t do a lot of these cases. So if where they are is they can’t help me. That’s absolutely fair. they owe me nothing. and so, understanding where they are from and having empathy for where they are and making sure that they have the support they need, is my primary goal.

[00:21:38] So when we settle these cases, or when we prosecute these cases, our number one interest is what can we do if our victims are not able to help us? Okay? Because that doesn’t mean the person should get to walk just because they picked particularly vulnerable people. Okay? In fact, the opposite second. What can we do?

[00:22:01] What can we provide? Who can we partner with to make sure that our victims are supported and that this bad thing that happened to them turns into their opportunity to have a better life?

[00:22:13] Sandie Morgan: That’s so good and such a great segue to the

[00:22:17] next aspect.

[00:22:18] I wanna

[00:22:19] talk about the collaboration and community trust that, and you’ve already started that a little bit with Thai CDC, but beyond just that, who else do you need in order to help, especially these foreign national victims, unaccompanied refugee minors? what part of the community needs to be at the table?

[00:22:46] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Wow. That’s a big question, Sandie. I mean, it, it’s really broad, right? We need, we need law enforcement. I mean, we often hear from. Certain settings, law enforcement’s the enemy. No. An educated, trained law enforcement is actually a great resource because they see what people are going through on the street.

[00:23:05] Very few of us do, right? So we need law enforcement, we need government agencies. here in LA County we have the Office of Grant Affairs. It’s a great agency that pulls from different parts of LA County government to provide what immigrants need to thrive in our community. When you have a. Third of your community being immigrants, you can’t just say, we’re not going to pay attention to them, right?

[00:23:27] You need nonprofits like, TCDC, but also like, day laborers, uh, Lon, the National Day Laborers Association. You need unions that provide people a upwardly mobile and protected workplace. You need, um, churches. You need synagogues, you need, mosques, all of who provide, especially in the thing strings, no strings attached.

[00:23:54] No expectation of what that person will give back support to their community, especially culturally. Community needs,embassies are great resources because of course they know who their people are. Everybody has a role in this. everyone can can help if for no other reason than demanding that workers are paid fairly.

[00:24:19] So if you see, if you go into a place and the workers don’t seem to be being treated fairly, turn around and walk out.

[00:24:26] Sandie Morgan: vote with your feet.

[00:24:28] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Absolutely. I found out the restaurant that we used to go to for brunch most Sundays with our kids, I found out they had had a huge labor issue. They had threatened their workers. They, they were fined a half a million dollars.

[00:24:42] they did all these cheating. We haven’t gone back. It’s very easy. I still don’t have a good waffle place, but it’s still very easy.

[00:24:50] Sandie Morgan: Oh, that’s, that’s good.

[00:24:52] That’s good. So when I’m out in the community and I want to

[00:24:58] do a better job of, for instance, our faith communities, you mentioned mosques and synagogues and churches. What is the kind of information we can give them? I had this conversation yesterday with someone with some influence in their faith community.

[00:25:18] It’s like, but what do I tell them? I mean, your class is eight weeks long they want like an eight minute version.

[00:25:27] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Right. You know, I think part of it is treatment. If people are being treated well in a business, when you walk in, if the employees are being treated respectfully, if management is standing up for the employees, if you see management coming up and saying it’s your break time, I mean it, it sounds really silly.

[00:25:46] But you know, we have people who work, who report to us working 12, 16, 16 hours and no breaks. Like somebody noticed that. Okay. So that’s part of it. Just we know what kindness versus niceness looks like. Nice is what they show to the customer. Kindness is what they show to their employees, right?

[00:26:06] So kindness.so there’s that. one of the issues I’m facing is I’m, I’m heading two task forces, around the fires. One, the, I call them the Rebuild LA task forces.

[00:26:17] One of them is for building fraud. But the other one is for labor exploitation because we know that laborers in disaster areas are, there’s up to a 70% chance that they will be, exploited for their work and a 30% chance that they will be, uh, that there’s trafficking involved. Okay? So that’s huge. If you are getting a contract done on your house and somebody comes in with a much lower bid than everybody else, you gotta ask yourself why?

[00:26:46] Because. The wood is gonna be the same for everybody. the nails are gonna be the same for everybody. What is the variable? The variable’s gonna be the workers, and so you can ask them, can I see your workman’s comp certificate? Can you know? How do you pay your people? You know what? What is the pay rate you give your workers or your subcontractors, or what do you require from them?

[00:27:10] We may pay more. Upfront, but that’s where we get back to the moral thing. We know that our houses aren’t built on the back of somebody who has been mistreated.

[00:27:21] Sandie Morgan: That is a great. Way to approach this understanding that it’s actually does come back on us as consumers to ask those questions. We do have responsibility in the story to be wise stewards of of our resources. I often go back to when I first started working in this space and someone explained to me the reason why they were buying a product that I proved to them was being produced by slave labor.

[00:27:58] I. In another country and they said to me, well, we have a very small budget and I’m trying to practice good stewardship. And my response was, is it good stewardship if we save money, buta parent in really dire circumstances, can’t afford to buy the books for his son to go to school or the shoes for his daughter to walk the mile to school. It’s better stewardship to invest in people rather than things. So I

[00:28:38] Ryann Gerber Jorban: that.

[00:28:39] Sandie Morgan: Um, if we could go on and on and we will have another conversation. I am sure. I love being part of the labor trafficking subcommittee. I often feel like I have nothing to contribute because I’m not law enforcement, I’m not an attorney.

[00:28:56] And yet at the same time, what you are talking about in these closing moments of today’s episode. Is how important a community is around people and we can all do something there.

[00:29:12] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Absolutely. And I, I, I have to disagree with your general premise that you do not add. Um, you are bringing in. Students who think that they want one thing and are learning that what they are experiencing in the world is very different from what other kids their ages are experiencing. And I, I suspect that if I know you, you do it very subtly.

[00:29:35] You don’t hit ’em over the head with it, you just let them see. What the realities are. And I, I, I’m guessing that your students at the beginning and at the end have very different viewpoints of what they are experiencing. And it’s so important, especially when we’re talking about justice programs. When we talk about criminal justice, we tend to focus on the criminal, and not the justice.

[00:29:59] And the justice isn’t just for the criminal. In fact, it shouldn’t be. It should be for the entire community. We should find just. Outcomes for those who are involved, whether they are the criminal ’cause. I am a big believer in the Constitution and, and all of the, and them having their full rights and again, respect even for what they have done wrong, but also justice for those who have been caught in this and have no choice.

[00:30:27] whether it’s through, forced criminality or being a victim of,you know, a criminal, we need to make sure that we recognize that there’s two sides to that phrase, and I think you do an excellent job of showing both sides of that, that the criminal needs to have their justice, but also the victim does as well.

[00:30:50] And we can do both of those very easily in our system.

[00:30:53] Sandie Morgan: And we can do it together. Thank you so much, Ryann, for being on our podcast today. Oh.

[00:30:59] Ryann Gerber Jorban: Oh, I loved it. Thank you for having me.

[00:31:02] Thank you so much, Ryann, for sharing your insights and expertise with us. Listeners, if you’re interested in hearing more from Ryann, including her impactful presentation at Ensure Justice, we included the YouTube link in the show notes@endinghumantrafficking.org.

[00:31:24] If you haven’t visited our site before, be sure to subscribe so you can stay up to date. With all the important information we share, we’d also love your help in growing this podcast. If you know someone who would benefit from today’s conversation, invite them to subscribe and join us in learning how to.

[00:31:47] Better protect our communities. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn to stay up to date. Thanks for listening. I’ll be back in two weeks.

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Commissioner Vicki Reed joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss the intersection of juvenile justice and child welfare, highlighting the importance of collaboration, care, and community in supporting vulnerable youth and preventing their exploitation.

Vicki ReedVicki Reed has dedicated her career to child welfare and juvenile justice, with over two decades of experience working with system-involved youth. She holds a degree in law enforcement and a master’s in criminal justice, and has been a strong advocate for vulnerable children in both public and private sectors. Vicki has served as a juvenile probation officer, the director of a youth-serving agency, and has helped shape state-level training for child welfare workers in Kentucky. Beyond her advocacy and service as Juvenile Justice Commissioner of Kentucky, she is also an accomplished author. In her previous appearance on this podcast (episode 246), Vicki discussed her novel The Car Thief. In this episode, she shares insights from her latest novel, Sleight of Hand, which also draws from her extensive experience working with youth.

Key Points Vicki Reed shares how an unexpected opportunity and sense of calling led her to come out of retirement to serve as Kentucky’s Juvenile Justice Commissioner. * She emphasizes the critical difference between juvenile justice and adult corrections, noting that punitive approaches fail with youth and that rehabilitation, mental health support, education, and pro-social activities are far more effective. * The high cost of long-term incarceration underscores the need for early intervention and supportive programming for at-risk youth. * Reed discusses how negative placement experiences in foster care can reinforce harmful behaviors, while positive, stable placements with appropriate support can change life trajectories. * Her novels, The Car Thief and Sleight of Hand, serve as creative tools to educate readers about the juvenile justice and child welfare systems, illustrating how caring adults make a significant difference in a young person’s life. * The character of Alex in Sleight of Hand, who experiences 64 placements, highlights the systemic issues facing youth in foster care and the importance of wraparound services. * Vicki introduces the concept of “automatic adult responses” and stresses the value of reframing interactions with youth, drawing on insights from expert Charlie Applestein and his approach from No Such Thing as a Bad Kid*. * Pro-social activities, such as music lessons, art therapy, or simple childhood experiences like flying a kite, play a key role in building competencies and self-worth for vulnerable youth. * Collaboration across systems—child welfare, juvenile justice, and mental health—is vital, as these sectors often serve the same youth but in siloed ways. * Reed advocates for dual status teams like those in Indiana, which require collaborative planning for youth involved in both child welfare and juvenile justice systems. * Children in congregate care (group homes or residential placements) are at higher risk for exploitation, making family-based care the preferred model whenever possible. * Reed calls for greater community engagement, suggesting ways individuals can support youth through fostering, volunteering as court advocates (CASA), or contributing to foster care organizations.

Resources Book: Sleight of Hand by Vicki Reed * Book: The Car Thief by Vicki Reed * Charlie Applestein: No Such Thing as a Bad Kid* * EHT246: Why You Should Read The Car Thief

Transcript[00:00:00] Sandie: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, brought to you by Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice, here in Orange County, California. I’m Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we equip you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in the fight to end human trafficking.

[00:00:22] Today I’m thrilled to welcome back Commissioner Vicki Reed. To the show, Vicki has dedicated her career to child welfare and juvenile justice, with over two decades of experience working with system involved youth. She holds a degree in law enforcement and a master’s in criminal justice and has been a strong advocate.

[00:00:48] For vulnerable children in both public and private sectors. She has served as a juvenile probation officer, the director of a youth serving agency, and helped shape state level training for child welfare workers in Kentucky beyond her advocacy.

[00:01:11] Her service as Juvenile Justice Commissioner of Kentucky. Vicki is also an accomplished author. In her last episode on the podcast number 246, we talked about her novel Car Thief. If you haven’t listened to that episode. I encourage you to check it out because today we’re diving into her latest novel Sleight of hand, which also draws from her extensive experience

[00:01:47] Well, commissioner Vicki Reed, it is a delight to have you back on the ending Human Trafficking Podcast.

[00:01:55] Vicki: And I’m delighted to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:58] Sandie: Since we talked the first time in episode 2 46 about your book, the Car Thief, and what we learned there about juvenile justice. You’ve written another book you’ve served as. The Kentucky Commissioner of Juvenile Justice, and I’m excited to ask you some questions today about your experience. first of all, I wanna know why you decided to come out of retirement and become the commissioner. Well,

[00:02:32] Vicki: an interesting story because probably nobody was more surprised than I was. I had been retired for a number of years and was really enjoying. consulting and writing and, and speaking and just having my own time to do things. But, when the position came open, I just really was sort of a calling to, to be able to take the, the top position and I’d worked in the agency before, underneath.

[00:02:55] And so to be able to have that, that top position and do all the things that I had always. Wanted to see done was just too good an opportunity to, to pass up. and so it was a, it was a wonderful experience. It was difficult in many ways. And I did learn that you can’t always do what you wanna do because you run into, uh, many issues.

[00:03:14] And one of the big problems right now across the entire nation, maybe the entire world. is it’s very difficult to get staff now so that if you don’t have staff that really sort of inhibits how much programming you can do and how much counseling you can do.

[00:03:27] So, it, it was an interesting experience and I promised to do it through, through the end of one term and I did. And so I’ve retired again and gone back and that’s when I finished, the second book and now I’m doing some consulting work with the National Partnership for Juvenile Services.

[00:03:41] Sandie: So let’s talk about the difference between juvenile justice and criminal justice, adults and youth. What are the different goals?

[00:03:52] Vicki: Well with adult corrections, you know, the, one of the primary things, of course, is public safety, and it’s not that juvenile justice doesn’t have that as well, but there’s a certain, punitive, point with adult corrections that we try to avoid. With, with juvenile. And one of the reasons is that it doesn’t work.

[00:04:11] Uh, we’ve seen that, you know, do you remember all the bootcamp hysteria? Everybody was having bootcamps. Oh, boot, straighten up fly rights and discipline. We’ll put that kid, they’ll learn that, you know, whatever. And then they did the studies and the recidivism rate was out the roof. It was like 80 to 90% scared straight, a complete failure.

[00:04:29] It, all these things that feel good and sound good to folks, but actually when they do the studies. Just don’t work. So what we do know is the more rehabilitative, you know, mental health counseling, pro-social activities, resources, a good education. And the other thing with the kids is if you have a, a 17, 16, 17-year-old who.

[00:04:50] Ends into a life of crime and does it for the next 40, 50, 60 years. You’re spending millions and millions of dollars on that individual. Where if we can, you know, get them going right in, in their teenage years and they can go on and graduate, they get a job, they, whatever, they become a functioning part of our society.

[00:05:09] everybody wins.

[00:05:11] Sandie: That’s a good point. This is a a smart fiscal decision too,

[00:05:16] Vicki: If you wanna look at it just in the hard cold facts that that alone.

[00:05:21] Sandie: But in reality, these. Are young people and they’re valuable and we’re not going, they’re not going to become throwaways, which, I’ve talked to kids who feel like they are throwaways. So let’s talk about the difference between your two books, because they’re a great way to.

[00:05:45] Begin to understand how we take care of kids with special circumstances. They may be living in an abusive environment, a neglect environment, which is abusive, and for their safety for their. Health, they are taken out of the home. So first, usually we see they go into child welfare and are presumably then given a placement in foster care.

[00:06:21] but the juvenile justice is the side where you did all of your work. So your first book that we interviewed you on back in episode number 2 46 was about your side of the house, the juvenile justice, and we met. Kelly and tell us a little bit about Kelly’s background that made him such a great way to teach us about the resources available through juvenile justice

[00:06:53] Vicki: Right. And that was the McCarthy ifand this, this, I, I decided to, and really the impetus for this was I was gonna write a nonfiction book about juvenile justice and I just couldn’t get it going. And I thought, well, what if I took a hypothetical kid and just took him through the system in a typical manner that kids do, where a lot of them.

[00:07:11] Start with child welfare issues and then come into juvenile justice and in Kelly’s case, even beyond. So, that, that was just kind of the whole thing where he was, you know, through the death of a family member, entered care and then, that didn’t work out well. And, you know, he took to the road, ran off, uh, got involved because he was stealing to live into juvenile justice.

[00:07:33] And then again, the theme with both of these books is. The books aren’t just about the kid, they’re about the adults. that impact. And it was not for a few very caring adults, the story could have turned out much different. And so the next book, sleigh of Hand, the one that just, just came out with the card on it.

[00:07:52] And I have to tell you from my book launch, we had cupcakes with edible rice cards tucked in

[00:07:57] Sandie: Oh my goodness. Oh

[00:07:59] Vicki: the kids, read them. They weren’t very TAs, I don’t think. But it, it was a, we had the whole casino thing going

[00:08:03] Sandie: So, before we talk about the book and the story of Alex in your second book, tell me how you chose to use a deck of cards in a book.

[00:08:18] Vicki: Well, and when I was in college, I took a recreation class because it was at, you know how college is with one of those times that you can fill in a nice class thing? And each week we had a different thing. We played pool One week, we did sports things one week. And one week we did magic tricks.

[00:08:34] And I was introduced to a ALI card, and you can look on Amazon for about seven bucks. You can get you a deck. And, uh, this, this is a special deck where if you flip it one way, you see all of like the ace of diamonds and you flip it the other way, it looks like normal cards. Uh, it’s because of the way they’re shaved.

[00:08:51] So anyway, I had that deck of cards and I had. Had in my purse, and I was a probation officer and I had a, a new probation officer. I had this kid who came in and, I mean, he was just like, you know, muttering wouldn’t talk, wouldn’t look at me. I was getting absolutely nowhere and out of desperation, I yanked that card thing out.

[00:09:09] I said, you wanna see a card trick? And just said, here, stick your finger in there. And so I did the card trick and he was just amazed. I mean, all of a sudden he was looking right at me like I was some sort of. You know, ’cause after he pulled out four or five asy diamonds out of the same deck and I kept showing him their regular, he thought I was really some magical person.

[00:09:26] And I have used those cards for, for 50 years out of all the things I learned in college, that was the most useful.

[00:09:31] Sandie: My goodness. Okay, so, so you share that trick at the beginning of this second book. So the first book was framed by our juvenile justice system. Now our. Star in sleigh of hand is in child welfare, and it’s very clear that this young boy is close to crossing over into territory that will end up putting him into juvenile justice.

[00:10:07] And so with 64 placements finding. A foster care home that is going to be sustainable seems impossible. when I read in the first chapter, 64 placements, I thought, what, so tell me what you know about placements.

[00:10:32] Vicki: well it’s, it’s interesting because, you know, usually placements for younger kids are fairly easily done. Uh, and I knew do know that child welfare. Through the pandemic also had issues with having enough foster homes, and that’s always a, an issue, but it’s obviously the more difficult a kid gets, the harder it’s going to be to find a foster care placement for them and.

[00:10:53] Sandie: you

[00:10:53] Vicki: We had kids from that we would offer to, not even just foster care, but group homes, residential care, children’s homes, you know, the Green Valley, blah, blah, blah, and all that. And some of them would charge a thousand dollars a day and we would refer a kid and they wouldn’t take them, for even a thousand dollars a day.

[00:11:11] Sandie: stop there. A thousand dollars a day.

[00:11:15] Vicki: Yes,

[00:11:16] Sandie: So, so, okay, so I’m gonna be your average reader and tell you some of the things I thought when I started reading this, 64 placements. First thing popped in my mind is, what is wrong with this kid? What? What do you say to me?

[00:11:34] Vicki: Right. Well, and I think anybody would think that, well, this must be a really horrible, awful kid who’s gone through 64 placements, and I won’t, put it on rose colored glasses. A lot of times it is. Any kid who’s had 64 placements is more than likely having some issues. But the thing is, it’s like, is it.

[00:11:52] The kid that’s caused the 64 placements, or is it the 64 placements that’s messing up the kid? Because just like in Alex, a lot of times he moves from foster homes that have no, no reason, that of fault of his own. You know, his one of, one of his favorite foster homes, they’re moving to California and they don’t take him with him.

[00:12:12] Just because, and we, we’ve had instances where foster parents will say, well, I’ll take a, a youth from the, school age from six to 12, and on the kid’s 13th birthday, they say they’re no longer in our age range. Take ’em out.

[00:12:24] Sandie: Wow. So.

[00:12:26] Vicki: it could be a, a number of different things.

[00:12:28] Sandie: things. So one of the things that I enjoyed as I was reading is it felt like I knew what Alex was thinking when he said something. I found out why he said it.

[00:12:42] That changed my attitude towards him. And the reason I think this book is great for students thinking about going into juvenile justice or child welfare. Is because you weave in the experts as you help us experience what the child is saying and why they’re saying it. Can you give me an example of an expert that you wove into the story?

[00:13:13] Vicki: Well, I’m a, I’m a big fan of Charlie Apple. Stein who was, helped her with my first book, who wrote No Bad kids.com, or that’s his website. And the book was No Bad Kids. and so I’ve used some of his techniques through the years and he and I got to be buddies. And so, I said, I’m, I’m gonna use some of these in your book.

[00:13:30] And he was like, oh, that, well, that’s fine. And one, one of my favorite things when, when Sam, the caseworker first meets with Alex, and,it just shows you the difference that. Sam Smart and knows what he’s doing. And he says to him, he goes, wow, 64 placements. That’s quite a number. How did you manage that? And the kid looks at him and says, no one tells me what to do. And Sam said is thinking in his head what I call automatic adult responses. Well, that’s the kind of thing that got you into a place like this. Well, I’m telling you what to do. Well, that you know that you’ll never get anywhere in life with an attitude.

[00:14:04] And do you think that kid hadn’t heard those kind of things all his life and he’s just. Another adult, whatever. But Sam is smart, and so Sam looks at him and he says, ah, an independent thinker. I get that. And the kid looks at him like, oh, this cat’s different.

[00:14:23] Sandie: So we’re learning how to change our attitude while we’re reading the book. Instead of saying what we wanna say, our automatic adult response, we actually follow the guidance of what’s his name again? We’re gonna put a link.

[00:14:41] Vicki: Charlie Stein.

[00:14:42] Sandie: Charlie Stein, and wow, what a way to learn because now I am waiting to see if it works.

[00:14:49] And it did. It did. Giving a child some control is like basic parenting. I remember when my daughter was two years old and I said, put your shoes on. We’re going, and she said, no. I was like, oh, wait a second. I stopped and then I said, do you wanna put your left shoe on first or your right shoe on first?

[00:15:12] Just giving kids an opportunity to make a choice. It put some of the power back in their hands. Um, when, when. Alex finally gets into a placement. One of the things that I learned from reading this story is how important it was to have a community around that child. Can you talk about the key people that helped that placement be sustainable?

[00:15:46] And it was his last placement. Oops, that was a spoiler alert. I’m sorry.

[00:15:51] Vicki: okay. That’s okay. That’s okay with I, I tend to have happy endings. I’ll just put it, that will really spoil there. Um, well, and that’s one of the things that’s, that’s very important that between looking at. Traditional normal foster care and therapeutic foster care is that you need to think of it more as a residential placement in a home.

[00:16:12] and you, and like Alex probably wouldn’t have made it in that foster home with Matt, the foster parent, if he didn’t have Sam helping them out and other people. So, you know, one of my, one of my gripes on this is we might pay a residential center a thousand dollars a day for a kid, but we pay foster care.

[00:16:31] $68 or whatever. And some of the foster placements that we use where we had success, we had a backup foster parent. We had aides that came in and took the kid out all day and tired ’em out. We had special educational programs. We, we could take that same money. And hopefully much less because you’re not having to pay room board, you know, the expensive staffing type things and surround that kid with services that, the wraparound approach that, that they do sometimes also nicely with kids who are still home and you, you basically, what does this kid need?

[00:17:03] And it might be some pro-social activities, things to keep ’em busy and you know, mental health counseling. So if we wrap those services around a kid, we’re gonna see a lot better. I just have to read one little thing. It’s like. I, I didn’t even know this one, right? There’s an epigraph, that’s what it’s called when you see a poem in the first book.

[00:17:20] And, and this one, this thing was on the his, on my office for 50 years and I got to put it in the book and it’s, he drew a circle that shut me out. Heretic, rebel, a thing to fly, but love and I had the wit to win. We drew a circle that took him in. And so that was sort of the whole thing for the book, is that we had these adults who come to, you know, assist this kid.

[00:17:42] Sandie: Wow. That’s so good. So let’s talk just for a second about pro-social activities. That’s a nice word. I like it. I’m gonna write it down. What does it mean

[00:17:56] Vicki: It means that you can’t just say no. You have to have give thing kids something to say yes to. So you just can’t say, don’t use drugs, don’t do this, don’t whatever. You know, what am I supposed to sit in my house? And a lot of times what I have learned from my time in detention, we, one of the detention centers here in Lexington is not very far from the Kentucky Horse Park.

[00:18:16] Folks know us. People out of the country, they know Lexington, Kentucky, world famous for our horses. And most of those kids have never even been there. It’s two miles away. And I’m always amazed at the things they haven’t done. They’ve never. Been on the Easter egg hunt. They’ve never flown a kite. They’ve never walked in a creek.

[00:18:33] They never saw pet a horse. They have lived such confined lives, and so one of the things is just exposing kids to the good things that are out there and giving them things that they. Can enjoy and do, and that will help build competencies and competency build self-worth. Self-worth means you’re more likely to be successful.

[00:18:55] So, you know, it’s great to have the kid in counseling, but maybe instead of three times a week going to counseling, two times a week they go to counseling and one time they go, uh, a music lesson or an art therapy class.

[00:19:06] Sandie: So I’m gonna start a drive to collect used saxophones and give them out at juvenile detention centers. That sounds like fun.

[00:19:16] Uh, there’s lots of research that shows that developmental assets reduce some of the. Issues that we call behavior problems just because the kids have something positive to do. So pro-social activities, put that in with your deck of cards for your tricks to help young people become stronger. Um, so when I’m thinking about some of the.

[00:19:50] Experts that you wove into the story and we just talked about,uh, why can’t I remember his name, apple.are there some others that you helped us, begin to experience so we could understand Alex’s way of thinking and why the adults around him didn’t understand why he did things?

[00:20:19] Vicki: I mean, there’s a number of I, some of the names are just not gonna come to me. It’s like sand and the reindeer. I know ’em when you say ’em,

[00:20:25] Sandie: Uhhuh

[00:20:25] Vicki: think of them all off the top of my head. But there’s a number of, of really good folks, and Rick Miller is another one who did Kids at Hope. which is one thing he was talking about that that.

[00:20:35] Hope drives humanity that these kids have to have a reason. If you think nothing’s ever gonna get better, then there’s no reason to try. and so this was sort of with Alex’s thing, he was like, just, you know, he’d shut down. I don’t, I’m not gonna care, I’m not gonna do anything they want me to do. And that, that’s one of the things we go back to the pro-social or, you know, protective factors we, we talk about with kids is that sometimes you just sort of have to rewire the brain and that.

[00:21:01] Positive experiences help undo some of those adverse childhood experiences, those ACEs that people talk about so much. So that’s another thing to keep in mind with the kid is that, they need to, uh, and the, oh, I’m trying to think of his name, Richard something, the big guru on violence with kids.

[00:21:19] He said, if you show me a kid at a school and he has one adult in that school who thinks that kid is great, he’s not gonna be a problem. It’s the kid who don’t have anybody that you have to worry about.

[00:21:30] Sandie: So commissioner, the number of placements that your hero in the second book Alex had was 64. What do statistics tell us about the hope he had for his future year?

[00:21:50] Vicki: Well, I think obviously after that, you know, you’re sort of not wanted obviously, and. One of the statistics that you know, he’d shared before was that kids who have five or more placements are 90% likely to enter the juvenile justice system. And there’s several studies that have been done that one I think was put out by Georgetown Law, which is a horrifying statistic to think that if you’ve moved five different times in foster care, that you’re almost certain to go to juvenile justice.

[00:22:18] And so one of my things is, well, if we know this, why don’t we take that information and. Flag it. After two or three placements, this kid gets a mark in his file and everybody in the office around child welfare or whatever, sits down and says, we, we need to stop this. We need to see what we need to do to make sure that this kid isn’t going on to four or 5, 6, 7 placements and, and on.

[00:22:41] And this also came up from Kentucky. There was a piece of legislation about from the schools and uh, because the superintendents had so many kids during pandemic and with the opioid epidemic. In their school systems and they said, we have these kids and they’re just changing schools all the time. They change a plate.

[00:22:58] We had a seventh grade boy who’d been in four different middle schools and that year’s only half over. and they get pulled out for foster care appointments. They get pulled out for court and they’re not, they’re getting very poor education. So that’s another way, you know, the, the good education that we can get kids that they don’t fall behind, you know, do they need tutoring to catch up?

[00:23:17] Uh, can we do some special things? Can we, can we do things for these kids that we do for our own? Because you and I put our kids in music lessons and sports and we take ’em on family vacations and stuff, and we need to do that same thing for these kids.

[00:23:31] Sandie: if we move, they move with us. So, um, the connection here with our, our kids who are more vulnerable to being commercially sexually exploited or recruited into labor trafficking, Is born out by other interviews that I’ve done with survivors.

[00:23:52] Most recently I interviewed, a gal, Alia, in episode number 3 38, and she had been in the system. That’s how we talked about it. And she had recommendations about how we can do a better job before she ended up in juvenile justice. And I think you’ve got some recommendations because these kids, we call them dual system kids, they were in child welfare.

[00:24:29] Now they. They became system involved with juvenile justice, which changes the expectations for their future. They get with juvenile justice, they have access to rehabilitation, but they have to make some choices to actually do that work. And they need people around them like your character did, like Matt and Sam and others in the community.

[00:24:57] So let’s talk about the recommendations.

[00:25:00] Vicki: One of them, just before I forget it because you’d mentioned the human trafficking. Uh,one thing we know is kids do best in families. So I’m not saying. There aren’t any kids that should go to what we call congregate care, which is group homes and the residential, but

[00:25:15] Sandie: Congregate care should be for just the youth. They really need those complex services that just cannot be handled in a family situation. And there are some kids like that, but for most kids, even some that you might think, are family, can’t be successful like Alex can be.

[00:25:33] Vicki: And one of the reasons that it’s best to be in families is. We were talking about human trafficking is that, you know, there are traffickers out there. They know where that group home is, and they know those kids that come and go, and they target them for a couple of reasons. One is because they know probably they don’t have much of anybody that cares about ’em because they’re in a group home.

[00:25:52] Because they’ve had trauma and so many vulnerabilities, they, they target them. So that’s one reason among many that we ought to keep kids in a family situation as as much as possible. But the other thing is, is just to realize we shouldn’t silo these kids into different organizations. You’ve got child welfare, you’ve got juvenile justice, and the one we didn’t talk about was mental health.

[00:26:14] And I know you have some background in that, uh, type thing. And so it’s. You know, it’s the same kids. So you have a girl who is either being sexually abused or feels like she’s at risk of it. Okay? She’s a child welfare kid right now. She runs away because she’s scared that, that somebody, either they’re doing something to her or they’re about to.

[00:26:34] So now she’s a status offender. She can be charged as a status offender,

[00:26:37] Sandie: What? What’s a status offender? Is that like you get in trouble for something you haven’t done yet?

[00:26:43] Vicki: It is what you can do if you’re a kid. That’s an offense. That’s not an offense for an adult. So if you don’t go to school, you can be charged with truancy. I, as an adult, if I don’t go to work, they don’t charge me with, you know, you didn’t go to work and lock me up. Uh, run beyond control of your parents and in different states, call ’em, you know, children in need of services and.

[00:27:02] Persons in need of services and that sort of thing, but they’re, they’re kids that you can oftentimes put in detention or in some other long-term care because of that status. So, you know, so you have a girl who runs away now she’s in that different category, and then so she steals to eat and she gets picked up for shoplifting.

[00:27:21] Well now she’s a juvenile justice, but she’s got mental health kids. She’s a mental health kid. It’s all the same kid. They all have the same needs, and so there needs to be a whole lot more collaboration. and some states do that very well, and some do not. Some have it very divided. Once they’re yours, they’re yours, and there’s a lot of finger pointing.

[00:27:39] I don’t want ’em, you take ’em and you spend your money on ’em. Uh uh. So we need to have, uh, Indiana does a good job. They have a, a particular, they have a whole dual status team where if they’re involved in both agencies by law, they have to meet. And work for the best interest of that kid. So there, there needs to be a lot more collaboration among them.

[00:27:59] Sandie: I love that and, and you’ve modeled that in your transition from being more on the criminal justice side of things and juvenile justice probation officer, and then to becoming a commissioner and making. Your dreams for change start to at least make progress. So as we wind up here, what is your call to action to people who read one or both of your books?

[00:28:32] Why should they read the book and what should they do afterwards?

[00:28:38] Vicki: One of the reasons I wrote these books as I hope people in the biz. Would enjoy them, but it was really more for the general public because people don’t know. And the biggest thing is to become informed. People just, you know, they don’t know. They think boot camps are great or they just think, you know, all foster care is either girly great or really bad.

[00:28:57] so this is, this is a way to take people. And because everything is confidential, you can’t get behind those doors as a. Person just on the street. So this is a way to just expose people and have them understand who these kids are. And if you can help in some way, being a foster parent’s, great.

[00:29:14] I that would be wonderful. And I realize that’s not for everybody, but you can do other things. You can, I’ve got my casa blanket back here, uh, here, here in America anyway, you can become a court advocate where you’re assigned to a kid and you become their advocate as they go through the system. If nothing else, you can help donate to foster care organizations.

[00:29:33] So they do have those clarinets and saxophones and can afford to pay for music lessons and art lessons and so forth. So there’s many ways that that people can help.

[00:29:44] Sandie: I love it. Commissioner Vicki Reed, I am sure you’re gonna write a third book and I will be looking forward to that episode. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank

[00:29:57] Vicki: Thank you very much.

[00:29:59] Sandie: Vicki, thank you so much for joining us again and for sharing your experience and powerful storytelling. Listeners, I encourage you to take the next step by visiting our website@endinghumantrafficking.org. If you haven’t already, be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss any of the important conversations.

[00:30:22] We are having. We’d also love your help in growing this podcast. If you know someone who would benefit from today’s episode, whether they’re working in child welfare education, or simply care about supporting youth in their communities, invite them to subscribe and join our. Podcast community. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn to stay updated on future episodes and resources.

[00:30:56] Thanks for listening. I’ll be back in two weeks.

[00:30:59]

View Details

Andrea Foster joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss how integrating health services within school systems enhances student well-being and functions as a vital strategy to prevent human trafficking.

Andrea FosterAndrea Foster is currently the administrator of Integrated Health within Student Services for the Orange County Department of Education. She provides supportive services and resources to promote healthy environments for over 400,000 students and their families across the county. She wants students to be able to access their education and become productive, successful adults. She has 24 years of school nursing experience across multiple settings and was recently a guest speaker at the annual Ensure Justice Conference.

Key Points* MTSS (Multi-Tiered System of Support) is a tiered framework that supports students at all levels—from universal interventions like screenings to highly individualized health or academic plans. * Integrated Health addresses the intersection of medical, emotional, and academic needs, ensuring students are supported holistically across environments. * Schools function as safety nets, especially when community awareness of MTSS allows families to engage with school systems more effectively. * Staff training to identify red flags and behavioral patterns is crucial in creating trusting environments where students feel safe to share concerns. * Rather than punitive responses to tardiness or behavioral issues, staff are encouraged to approach students and families with empathy and support. * Programs like “Handle With Care” and “FOCUS” facilitate communication from families to schools when a child may need extra care without disclosing private details. * Health education in schools—whether related to chronic conditions, substance use, or injury prevention—empowers students to make informed choices. * Digital wellness is a growing area of focus, emphasizing safe, intentional use of technology and awareness of harmful online challenges. * Students should be taught to critically evaluate online prompts, understand data privacy, and self-advocate when something feels unsafe or inappropriate. * Empowering students to self-advocate helps them protect themselves and their peers, especially when navigating online platforms. * Every child needs at least one trusted adult; school staff can foster these relationships by creating open, safe environments for honest conversations. * Community involvement—through school board engagement, volunteering, or partnerships—can strengthen schools’ ability to support students and families effectively.

Resources* Andrea Foster on LinkedIn

Transcript[00:00:00] Sandie Morgan: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. I’m Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we equip you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in the fight to end human trafficking here at the Global Center for Women in Justice Vanguard University. This is episode number 343, integrating Health Services in school strategies to keep students safe.

Andrea Foster is currently the administrator of Integrated Health within the student services for the division of the Orange County Department of Education. She provides supportive services and resources to promote healthy environments to over 400,000 students and their families across.

County. She wants students to be able to access their education and become productive, successful adults. She has 24 years of school nursing experience across [00:02:00] multiple settings, and recently she was a guest speaker at our. Annual Ensure Justice Conference, and I think one of the things I loved, Andrea, was how you advocated for where the kids are and what they need.

So welcome to the show.

Thank you Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here.

so let’s start off first with a little bit of an understanding of where your role in Department of Education fits in this concept of MTSS. What is MTSS and why is it such a big deal here in California?

[00:02:46] Andrea Foster: So MTSS stands for the multi-tiered system of support, and this is a tiered system, that we can utilize or a framework. That we can utilize to support students wherever they’re at, and [00:03:00] whatever their needs are. So, tier one is our supports that we provide to all students. these are things like preventative measures.

Other supports like vision and hearing screenings. on the academic side, it’s gonna be your normal academic, accommodations that are made during the school day. Once you get into tier two, this tier is for a select group of students, so students who need some additional support. Typically for support services personnel, these are kids that have been identified as needing some additional support.

And usually those supports are provided in a group setting. And so again, small number of students, isn’t, isn’t a accommodation that is applied to all students, and typically provided in a group setting. these may include, Small group settings

such as maybe a counseling session, with a group talking specifically [00:04:00] about an issue that’s on campus or on the academic side.

It could be a small group session, small, to provide additional support with reading or additional supports with math. So it MTSS really accommodates kids. In every path that they’re on, in the setting and really covers them as a whole child. When we’re looking at tier three interventions, those interventions are really very specific and individualized to a student.

So, if you’re looking at health in particular, these are gonna be kiddos who have five oh fours or who have IEPs or who have specialized healthcare plans, for chronic medical conditions. On the academic side, you would see again, IEPs with academic accommodations or five oh fours with accommodations, to support these kids so that they can, be successful.

[00:04:51] Sandie Morgan: I love that. And so now I’m looking at your job title and this word that’s in it, [00:05:00] integrated student wellness. What does that mean in your everyday administration?

[00:05:08] Andrea Foster: So I, when I am doing programming or providing professional development, or really working collaboratively across Orange County, I’m looking at how health integrates with the whole child. you know, you can’t just look at the child in, in one, domain. You know, we talk about Maslow’s hierarchy of need, and you have to meet all of those needs before.

Anyone can be successful and actualize, their potential. And so, for integrated health, I’m really looking at where health is a cross section with all of these other components. So whether it be mental health, whether it be housing, whether it be, other things that are going on in their lives, as well as their academic status.

So how do we integrate all of this for the success of the student?

[00:05:58] Sandie Morgan: and when we’re [00:06:00] looking at different school environments and trying to integrate this when they have challenges at home? I think we put a lot of our hope in the ability of our schools to become a safety net, and our Ensure Justice Conference was titled This Year, safety Nets.

We’re thinking about online safety to some extent, but just community safety nets. How can we be more.I guess my question is how can we help in those integrated ’cause I think the community has to know how to be part of that MTSS model.

[00:06:48] Andrea Foster: So I would say, just being aware of that multi-tiered system of support and how school districts utilize that to support their students. So really being able to understand the [00:07:00] language. you wouldn’t necessarily, as a community member or a family member need to know what falls within each of those.

Just knowing that that is. What school districts use as a framework and being able to ask, you know, how can the multi-tiered system of support support my student who is experiencing. Fill in the blank. experiencing homelessness, experiencing, a chronic health condition, experiencing academic needs, experiencing trafficking.

so just really understanding the language so that, so that they know what to ask for when they’re at a school site.

[00:07:40] Sandie Morgan: So when I’m thinking about what that looks like, that integrated support, I am thinking about it from a pediatric nursing background and all of my years of communication with school nurses, and there is a [00:08:00] major focus, like in that first column in.

MTSS of prevention that, I mean hearing and brushing your teeth and all of those kinds of things. Where does this aspect of prevention fall When we’re trying to help our kids who need a safety net and the school is a key part of that.

[00:08:26] Andrea Foster: So I think it’s multi-tiered here. So the first I would say is really being able to identify, and monitor for red flags. And so that’s really important. and part of that is. For school district is really providing that training so that personnel are aware of what those red flags are and understand what it looks like to identify patterns, and then be able to build a safety net, of trusting relationships.

You know, creating a, a calm environment, a [00:09:00] non-judgmental space where students feel comfortable to be able to share information, whether that’s in the health office, their. Counselor, their social worker, their teacher, really everyone on a school site is responsible, for creating this safe space and building these relationships with students.

and then using open-ended, language with students, which gives them an opportunity to think, and to provide their own language back. And then checking in with kids regularly to make sure that they have the supports that they need and, if something comes up, they’re, they have the time and the space to be able to share.

[00:09:40] Sandie Morgan: let’s. Let’s do kind of a role play here. I am a kid who chronically comes to school, tardy late. when I was going to school, that meant I would get like a red mark next to my name. What would you be [00:10:00] training the person in the front office to do instead?

[00:10:04] Andrea Foster: So really I would be training the health office because that’s my role. but I would say for. For all staff and, and this has kind of changed in the last couple years, is really again, with the family members, creating that safe space, letting them know that we care about the students and that we want the students to be there and that we’re there to support them, whatever they’re going through.

whether it’s the students or the families, you know, providing resources, so that the student is able to come to school and feel supported enough that they can, access their education and so that families feel like their students are safe at school, and getting what they need.

[00:10:48] Sandie Morgan: I love that because I know, sometimes. If you think about a nine or 10-year-old, who’s late, they aren’t the ones responsible for getting out the [00:11:00] door, finding transportation, and so something else is going on. And so I wanna find a way for that child not to start late in the classroom already feeling chastised and in trouble and raising the.

Anxiety bar that reduces their ability to learn. So thinking through some of those things, I think those are part of the red flags that we’re working on. And I know in the health office, when I was in your training, I was. Very impressed with how many protocols are already in place when kids come in, and those protocols are designed for making sure kids feel supported so that they can access their education.

I think that’s kind of a [00:12:00] new, not. I, I wouldn’t say it’s a new, I think it’s an emerging best practice that we’re not here to, chastise a kid who really may not have any control. We want them to be successful learners. What would you recommend to parents who are struggling and they. Drop their kids off.

What could a parent do to make that a smoother transition? Because maybe they’ve got health issues, they’ve got, they’re in a generation where they’re taking care of. Older adults in their family, their caregivers at both end, or they have a work where their schedule is very different than their kids’ school.

How can parents access help in that space?

[00:12:56] Andrea Foster: Well, I think there are a couple things. One, building a [00:13:00] positive relationship with your school system. uh,whether that’s your teacher, your child’s teacher, whether that’s the principal, whether it’s the worker in the health office, having someone who. You feel confident and confident in that can support you in some of this work.

And then, because they, they will also be providing resources to you when you need those resources. So being comfortable enough to, to ask the questions to those people. But I would also say, having a warm handoff. So if, if a student is really struggling on a particular day or there’s something going on at home. Parents don’t necessarily need to provide all of that information, but what would be helpful is providing even just a simple comment, maybe to the teacher or the principal, to handle that student with care that day. so that, if there’s something coming up that teacher knows that there’s something going on at [00:14:00] home, and they can provide some additional support.

Or if, there’s a test that day, for example, maybe that’s not the best day for that student to take a test. And so the teacher or the administrator really knowing or, or your support person really knowing, that that student needs some additional TLC that day sometimes is really beneficial.

[00:14:22] Sandie Morgan: I love that. Years ago at Ensure Justice, we focused on a program called Handle With Care, and you didn’t have to provide any background information. And then Orange County, we launched our own version, I think it’s called Focus, and the idea of focusing on the child, not what’s happening, but. Knowing that maybe they might have missed breakfast because of whatever happened in their community or in their home.

So that’s an an encouraging piece [00:15:00] of this integrated services to our kids. Let’s move over to talking about education as prevention and where do you see that in your work and in what parents can do to better support their kids? I.

[00:15:21] Andrea Foster: So I would say school nursing in particular does a lot of education in the health office, and a lot of preventative, health education, in regards to bicy ebi safety in regards to, Diabetic management in regards to chronic health conditions. marijuana use, you know, so there’s a lot of preventative education that occurs in the health office.

but it also occurs across the campus, you know, when. Students, are with an administrator. There may be some additional preventative, education that occurs when they’re in PE [00:16:00] class, when they’re in health class. they’re getting a lot of preventative information and that’s so vital, that they have the information so that when they are making decisions, that they’re making decisions, educated decisions.

[00:16:14] Sandie Morgan: And this kind of leads to the panel that you participated on at Ensure Justice. The title of that panel was connected and protected. The Role of Schools in Empowering Students for Digital Wellness. So here’s where. A lot of the work that I did as a pediatric nurse was hands-on, take their temperature, monitor them, deliver medicine, but digital wellness is in, in your space of integrated health.

So what does that look like in in schools?

[00:16:57] Andrea Foster: So everybody is responsible for [00:17:00] digital safety. this isn’t just a parental issue. we know that our kids are online. Much of the day, whether it’s for academics or whether it’s for entertainment. so in the, in the education set setting, it’s really important and incumbent on us to really provide the education of where the pitfalls lie.

how to prevent those pitfalls so students understand, why people would want their data. They understand.how to really look at what’s being asked and whether or not that that’s something that they should provide in any online component, as well as really starting to look at how much they are online and are there other opportunities.

You know that they can utilize their online platforms, but also utilize other opportunities in the classroom that [00:18:00] support each of those. And so just really taking a look at it. And then, you know, we talked a little bit about those red flags, you know, really looking at. Asking the students, what they’re working with and, and what online platforms are they utilizing because we are gonna start to see some of those patterns,specifically some of those patterns where we see kids who are on specific platforms and, that promote these unhealthy challenges, that students often find themselves in the midst of, and, you know, have health.

Have health outcomes that are not positive or have other things that happen in their lives because of those particular challenges. And so just really asking the question of those students, as well as providing that education of, of what’s really happening in the world and, and having a discussion about it.

[00:18:55] Sandie Morgan: wow and finding safe ways to have those conversations [00:19:00] is. The role of our educators in the classroom, and you, you already mentioned, are they using these devices for their academic journey or for entertainment? So when it’s part of their academics, taking it away.

Is not going to solve the problem and may actually limit, their empowerment. Now, you talked about unhealthy challenges. Let’s just talk about that in more plain language. What is that looking like in our schools today?

[00:19:38] Andrea Foster: So I would say probably one of the biggest ones that we, I think everybody heard about, was the, was it the Tide pods or it was the, pods that you put

[00:19:51] Sandie Morgan: yeah, Uhhuh.

[00:19:52] Andrea Foster: and, and kids were to challenging each other to consume those, which was creating a lot of health [00:20:00] issues. Which, you know, if you look at it from an academic standpoint, not only is it a health issue, but it keeps them outta school, which then becomes an academic issue as well.

but, some of these other challenges, um, there was one here just recently where, adults and, and. Children were challenging each other to run and jump on these really thin rails, and try to, to slide down these really thin rails, um, of which a lot of people broke bones, um, had traumatic head injuries.

again, you know, which prevents them from doing the other things in their life that they should be doing. So really helping students understand that these challenges really aren’t, A good, a good use of their time, and the safety hazards that go along with them.

[00:20:49] Sandie Morgan: And I don’t, I think so much when we talk about online safety, we’re thinking more about some, a child being groomed, and we’ve talked about that on this podcast a lot, and I’ll [00:21:00] put links to some of those. But this idea that physical safety can be compromised by online engagement is something we are not always paying a lot of attention to.

The, the other thing that you just mentioned that makes me kind of curious ’cause you said, and adults doing it too. I have this idea that we have put a lot of pressure on teachers, educators, Professionals in our education community to keep our kids safe online. And the kids are digital natives.

They’ve grown up. I have freshmen in my class right now who from the time they were in kindergarten, had a device in their hands in the classroom. And yet I want someone like you to be responsible for keeping all these kids safe. And every platform is a [00:22:00] new experience for us. We are asking. Adult professionals to add a new skillset, and I think one of the things that you’ve done in Orange County with the number of workshops for school professionals in integrated health is try to provide the resources to help.

That community come up to speed to be able to, respond appropriately. What’s your biggest challenge in that space?

[00:22:38] Andrea Foster: I think the biggest challenge is that technology is just moving so fast that it’s very difficult to keep up with what the next big trend is gonna be, and so. When you talk about providing preventative education,you’re really looking at how do we get the information to them before they [00:23:00] have the opportunity to access whatever we are trying to prevent.

And, in this space right now, it almost feels impossible. And, and I, I would say not only for educators, but for community members and our, Our legislatures and our families, you know, it, it’s just moving so, so fast that the next new thing is there before you even know it’s gonna be a problem.

[00:23:26] Sandie Morgan: Wow. And the quick response that seems like it would fix it is, let’s just take it all away. how effective do you see that as a strategy?

[00:23:41] Andrea Foster: So I don’t think it is a, I don’t think it’s a doable strategy. We have come to a point, where we are moving so fast in technology that it would almost be impossible to take it away. not to mention the fact that you talked about your freshmen who [00:24:00] are, are native to this world. it would be harmful to them.

As well as there is a lot of good that technology is bringing us. it’s decreasing some of the amount of the mundane and tedious things, that, that technology can take care of, which frees us up to do other things that are more important. it’s also the information age, you know, it’s not just all of the, YouTubes and tiktoks and, all of those platforms, it really is being utilized for education. And so to take it away, I, I don’t think, I don’t see that as an, as an option. not at this time. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:45] Sandie Morgan: I, yeah, I can’t imagine teaching. I do. I even do attendance. I. Online and it captures it, and then the registrar’s office has it. So I’m not filling out, forms, which means then [00:25:00] I have time to engage my students and talk about what’s happening in their lives. And, and I think that’s one of the things we have to be aware of is what is the trade off?

How am I using that to benefit my role as an educator? when we were talking about this on the panel about digital wellness, the idea of empowering the students, what are some tips for making sure that kids understand their ability to choose well?

[00:25:41] Andrea Foster: Well, I am a big proponent for teaching anyone to be a good advocate for themselves, whether we’re in a medical space, and they’re advocating for their own health, where whether we’re in the academic space and they’re advocating for whatever they need to [00:26:00] support them in their. Ability to be successful.

It’s the same thing with our media. Really giving them the information that they need, to make good decisions, but also giving them a voice so that they can advocate for themselves what’s working, what’s not working, and then again, creating that safe space where they have an opportunity to share, their advocacy for what they need.

[00:26:29] Sandie Morgan: so what would that look like for say, a fifth grader?

[00:26:34] Andrea Foster: So, what it could look like is if a fifth grader was feeling like, Maybe there’s something online that makes them uncomfortable or there’s someone online asking them for information that makes them uncomfortable, then they would have that space, safe space to be able to advocate for themselves, be able to ask questions about, I’m on [00:27:00] this particular platform and this is what I’m being asked.

I is, is this the right, is this appropriate? Or I’ve been playing this game and my PlayStation says that I need to give it access to my firewall, which would allow them to get in.into their system is, is that the right thing to do because it, you know, after what you’ve just taught me, maybe it’s not the right thing to do.

So really giving them an opportunity to ask those questions. and then maybe not in, maybe not giving them a direct answer, maybe showing them where they can find the answer and supporting them in looking that information up. So that really becomes that advocacy piece where they’re learning. they have the safe space, and they’re able to ask the questions.

[00:27:49] Sandie Morgan: Wow. And then they can take the next step instead of us being like the sheriff going around checking on everybody. I have this [00:28:00] sense that when kids learn to self-advocate, they also, in their little community can become a protective factor. Because they talk to their friends and they say, no, no, no.

You should not listen to that guy on your PlayStation. You need to block him. And the the, I think this has to carry over in homes as well. And the idea that you get to ask all those questions if something is considered. Something you can’t talk about, then we don’t empower our kids to respond and and be more self-reliant and confident in their online experience.

When we were at the conference, you talked about [00:29:00] how, An adult can be a protective factor. And I actually have a quote, you said, every child is one trusting adult away from fill in the blank. And online safety is one aspect. Some of these other things, that you’ve mentioned that result in physical.

Injuries are part of it, but that one, trusted adult. We have put a lot of burden on teachers and on parents, but not every kid has developed that relationship with, A teacher or they haven’t had a stable home life, they’ve had multiple placements in foster care. Tell me about your definition of a trusted adult.

[00:29:58] Andrea Foster: Well, I would say, first of all, [00:30:00] I borrowed that from the California Department of Education, so I wanna give them credit, for that statement. but a trusted adult is someone who gives a, a person, an individual, an opportunity, to be heard, an opportunity to have a voice, and feel like they have a safe space where they can utilize that voice.

And so. People who are around the students, if they can provide those opportunities for students, not only will they, give the student an opportunity to voice, whatever’s going on in their lives, but they also give ’em the opportunity to build a trusting relationship. and it’s interesting when you’re in education, sometimes you don’t.

You don’t know what happens to your students after they leave you, but there’s not a greater feeling of when they come back and they say, you know what? You made a difference in my life. And you don’t remember specifically what you [00:31:00] did other than you gave them an opportunity to, to have a voice and gave them a space where they could use it.

[00:31:07] Sandie Morgan: Wow, that’s so good. So, as we look at this idea of the community response to. Integrated health. Is there something that our community can contribute to their local school that will help improve the opportunities for kids to be safer online, to have healthier opportunities and be more supported in education?

[00:31:44] Andrea Foster: I would say be a part of your community, whether you are a community member, whether you’re a family member, whether you’re an agency that’s providing services, get involved. That’s really [00:32:00] what community schools have always been about, is bringing services to the school site to support students and their families.

And so understand what your board priorities are, understand where they’re spending their money. Um And get involved. Be a part of helping them determine where that money is being spent. Work at your school sites, volunteer at your school sites. understand what your board of education and what your school stands for.

What are their, what are their goals? What are their objectives? And then participate, in all of that.

[00:32:40] Sandie Morgan: We recently did an interview with a former DEA agent, and we talked about following the money, so I love that your advice is so practical. We talk about things at a, at a kind of 30,000 foot level, but. What [00:33:00] I heard from you when I participated on site in one of your workshops, what I heard from you in Ensure Justice and what I hear from today is that it is a community response and being a trusted adult.

Is part of making sure our kids are safe, whether they’re online or out in our communities, and I’m just grateful that we get to partner and keep partnering with our community, and the Department of Education. I encourage our listeners find out what’s going on in your department of education. I love the idea of.

School board meetings, I’d ask people, when is the last time that you went to your school board meeting? And I know people who have never been to a school board meeting, it’s a fun thing to get to do and they let [00:34:00] you ask questions and they appreciate parents and community leaders being involved as so think about those are such good recommendations.

Last word from you, Andrea.

[00:34:14] Andrea Foster: I would say just stay involved. working with schools is one of the best things that I have ever done. And, I would encourage all community members, stakeholder members, family members, get involved with your school setting. it really takes a village, and this is an amazing community, to partner with.

[00:34:32] Sandie Morgan: Thank you so much for being part of our ending Human Trafficking podcast. We wanna start right where the kids are in building strategies for prevention, and I wanna be one of those trusted adults to our kids. Thank you.

Andrea, it’s been such a pleasure having you with us.

Thank you for the important work you’re doing and for sharing [00:35:00] it with us and to our listeners. If you found this conversation impactful, don’t keep it to yourself. Share it with a friend, and be sure to subscribe so you never miss a new episode. Don’t forget to check out the show notes, helpful resources, and more on our website at endinghumantrafficking.org.

We’d also love to stay connected with you, follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and help us grow this community committed to ending human trafficking. Thanks again for listening. Be ready for another episode in two weeks.

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Jamie Macintosh joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss how peer education is transforming human trafficking prevention in schools through the Safe Community Safe Kids Program.

Jamie MacintoshJamie Macintosh joined the Global Center for Women and Justice as the program coordinator for the Samueli Foundation Grant: Safe Community, Safe Kids Program. She is an alumnus of Vanguard University and has a single-subject teaching credential in social science and a college counseling certificate from UCLA. She has extensive experience working as a middle and high school teacher, a school counselor, and an administrator in both private and public education. Passionate about outreach, Jamie has traveled with students on trips to Europe, Africa, Asia, and South America.

Key Points* The Safe Community Safe Kids Program launched in 2024 through a grant from the Samueli Foundation to combat human trafficking among minors in Orange County. * The program provides free, expert-led prevention education and trauma-informed training for both students and educators, meeting California’s legal requirements for human trafficking education. * College students from Vanguard University are trained as peer educators, completing over 40 hours of specialized training to deliver two-part presentations in local classrooms. * Peer educators provide instruction on topics like online safety, healthy relationships, red flags, and how to recognize and resist trafficking tactics. * Using anonymous sticky notes, the program collects feedback from students, helping them voice their questions and reflections in a safe way. * The curriculum leverages the power of peer-to-peer influence, offering relevant language, relatable examples, and stronger engagement from students. * Students are taught to assess unsafe situations and are empowered to become active protectors in their peer groups, reinforcing the concept of community-based safety. * Real-world scenarios and emotional manipulation tactics used by traffickers are addressed head-on, including peer recruitment and exploitation through social networks. * The program aims to be replicable across communities and includes long-term plans for sustainability through school district partnerships and community support. * Jamie emphasizes the importance of building resilience in students so they can recognize risk, respond appropriately, and protect themselves and others. * Future goals include doubling the program’s reach and building consistent delivery systems to maintain impact as peer educators graduate and new ones are trained.

Resources* Jamie Macintosh on LinkedIn * Live2Free * Short film

Transcript[00:00:00] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, brought to you by Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice, right here in Orange County, California. This is episode number 342. Peer educators to build safe communities.

[00:00:20] And I’m Dr. Sandie Morgan. This is the show where we equip you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in the fight to end human trafficking. I’m very glad to welcome Jamie Macintosh to the show.

[00:00:38] Jamie Macintosh joined the Global Center for Women in Justice as the program coordinator for the Samueli Foundation Grant. Safe Community, Safe Kids Program. She is an alumnus of Vanguard University and has a single subject teaching credential in social science and a college counseling certificate from UCLA.

[00:01:06] Sandie Morgan: She has extensive experience working as a middle and high school teacher, a school counselor and administrator In private and public education passionate about outreach. Jamie has traveled with students on trips to Europe, Africa, Asia, and South America. Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast Jamie.

[00:01:34] Jamie Macintosh: Thank you for having me here today Dr. Morgan,

[00:01:37] Sandie Morgan: I am so excited that you joined the Global Center for Women I Justice when we received the Safe Community, safe Kids Sam Welly Foundation grant, and I have to tell our listeners that when we interviewed you, ’cause listeners get to be kind of on the inside track, when we interviewed you, our committee was particularly impressed that you had served as a vice principal.

[00:02:13] What does a vice principal do that’s different than other teachers and administrators?

[00:02:20] Jamie Macintosh: As a vice principal, you really support the students. I think it’s a little bit more hands on with them and you’re really starting to learn more about them, especially students who are maybe having trouble in school.

[00:02:34] And so there’s a lot of times that they’re in your office and you’re talking about what’s happening in the classroom, but you’re really getting down to the root of what’s going on in their lives.

[00:02:43] Sandie Morgan: Somebody on the interview team said to me, oh wow, that’s great. She’s a problem solver, and so we knew you were the right one for the job. Tell us a little bit about what the Safe Community Safe Kids Program is doing.

[00:03:05] Jamie Macintosh: So in June, 2024, the Global Center for Women in Justice at Vanguard University, received a generous grant from the Samueli Foundation, and this was to launch the Safe Community Safe Kids Program. So this initiative just aims to combat the severe threat of human trafficking to minors in Orange County by providing expert led prevention, education, and trauma informed training to both students and educators.

[00:03:33] And all of this is done at no cost to the schools or to the teachers. So the Safe Community, Safe Kids builds upon the success of the Global Center for Women in Justice and live to free. Who have educated over 11,000 students over the past decade, but with this grant, we’re able to launch and educate even more students.

[00:03:54]Sandie Morgan: So the Safe Community Safe Kids Program is going to also meet the California state requirements for seventh and ninth grade, is what I understand.

[00:04:11] Sandie Morgan: So when you’re talking about doing this for the schools for free, why is that so important?

[00:04:19] Jamie Macintosh: In 2016, California enacted the California Health Youth Act, which requires California public school districts to provide specific requirements for instruction on human trafficking to students in grades seven through 12, at least once in middle school and once in high school. So our program aligns with that.

[00:04:39] As well as assembly bill 1227, which still focuses on addressing human trafficking in California schools. So our program trains Vanguard University College students, which we call peer educators, to visit the classrooms to provide this crucial education on human trafficking, as well as online safety and healthy relationships.

[00:05:02] Sandie Morgan: And they adapted that a little later on, and I believe now every student is required in seventh grade and in ninth grade to have some kind of prevention training. Around human trafficking that includes both sex and labor trafficking. And the idea that it requires this training, but it doesn’t have specifics as far as whose training you have to use, has created, a need in our schools for support.

[00:05:42] So how does our program, and I’m just gonna be like promoting this because we wanna share this, out. We want other organizations to learn from what we’ve learned because we do believe prevention is super important. So how do we meet those guidelines?

[00:06:05] Jamie Macintosh: I think as a teacher, a lot of times you’re asked to teach something and you don’t get the full training, and a lot of times it’s maybe a sentence or two in your curriculum, but we know it’s so much deeper, and so we are able to go into the schools with our extensive knowledge and training and to take this from the teacher and to really teach the students this important information.

[00:06:29] Sandie Morgan: So you’re speaking not just from the perspective as the program coordinator, but your own experience as a teacher in the classroom?

[00:06:40] Jamie Macintosh: Yes, and I know one of the things that we’ve faced in implementing our program are teachers who are reserved about having guest speakers come into their classroom, especially about something as important as this.

[00:06:54] I had a teacher that said, you know, I’m a little hesitant. Because I really have had people come in and they haven’t done a great job, and my time is so valuable. So what are you doing that’s different?

[00:07:07] Sandie Morgan: Ooh, I like that question

[00:07:08] Jamie Macintosh: And we, we were able to say, we use a research based curriculum. Our students have been trained for 40 hours.

[00:07:17] They go through continuous education and they are really subject matter experts on this.

[00:07:23] Sandie Morgan: Wow.

[00:07:24] 40 hours of training. Okay, so the idea of, well, let me go back. there’s so much to unpack in what you just said. That’s so exciting. So let’s go back. You started in June and it’s only March. So we’re three quarters of the way through year one.

[00:07:47] Let’s get kind of a glimpse of the progress that you’ve made.

[00:07:52] Jamie Macintosh: So our students, they started school at the end of August, and that’s when we started our interviews and then we went right into training. We hired 10 peer educators, and like I said, they completed those 40 hours of training in addition to going to their classes, doing their homework, doing their assignments.

[00:08:13] Then we launched into the schools. We conducted our first school visit in October, and since then we’ve partnered with 16 educators across 13 school sites. We’ve taught 52 lessons and have trained 794 students in that time.

[00:08:30] Sandie Morgan: Can I just round that off to 800?

[00:08:32] Jamie Macintosh: Yes.

[00:08:32] Sandie Morgan: Oh my gosh, that’s so amazing. Here’s the thing, when I first came to Orange County, I got invited into the classroom and I realized right away, cause I was already a grandma, that students were rolling their eyes and

[00:08:54] I realized they were just like my own kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You’re supposed to tell me to be careful. You’re supposed to remind me to look both ways when I cross the street, but why is it so important that we use peer educators?

[00:09:14] Jamie Macintosh: Our peer educators are saying the same things that we’re seeing, but the students aren’t hearing it when it comes from us.

[00:09:21] When they hear it from someone who’s close in age to them. Our peer educators are current undergraduate students. It just is something that hits a little bit more closer to home,

[00:09:32] Sandie Morgan: They look more like this kids. They use the same vernacular when they’re talking about video games. They’ve actually played those video games.

[00:09:44] So there’s just more resonance with, uh, a peer educator and a near peer recipient of that training. I love that you’ve already reached almost 800 students. What kind of feedback have you received?

[00:10:03] Jamie Macintosh: It has been so positive from the teachers, from the administrators down to the students. Um, something that you’ll notice when you see my desk is it’s just filled with sticky notes.

[00:10:15] Oh my gosh.

[00:10:16] Sandie Morgan: You are, you look like you dig through trash cans looking for sticky notes. They are everywhere and every color I just, we we, we’ll take a picture, we’ll put it on the website. This is the sticky note

[00:10:31] Jamie Macintosh: Yes.

[00:10:31] And that was something that after a couple of visits, we realized that we wanted more feedback from the students and we wanted them to have a safe.

[00:10:39] Space to ask the questions that maybe they couldn’t ask in front of the class. So at the end of our first lesson, we ask the students on a sticky note that we pass out to them to either write something they found interesting, something they learned that day, or maybe a question that they have, and we go through each and every one of them.

[00:10:59] We go back in lesson two and answer each of those questions. So it allows students to really share what’s on their heart, and sometimes that’s scary to do it in front of a class

[00:11:10] Sandie Morgan: and they don’t have to put their name on

[00:11:12] Jamie Macintosh: It’s completely anonymous.

[00:11:14] Sandie Morgan: Wow. So what are you gonna do with all those stickynotes

[00:11:17] Jamie Macintosh: Yeah, I think about that all the time.

[00:11:20] I know I need to do something. I save each and every one of them, and a lot of them say how much of a great impact our program had on them, what they’ve learned, signs that they didn’t realize were there before. Some red flags they’ve seen in past relationships and what they wanna do to protect others and themselves.

[00:11:40] Sandie Morgan: what kind of lessons have you learned along the way?

[00:11:45] Jamie Macintosh: I think after each presentation, it’s always a time of reflection. What are ways that we can reach students better? And so we’ve changed in different things that we’ve said. We’ve changed in ways that we can deliver our content. we’ve learned to kind of refine our skills each and every time.

[00:12:06] Sandie Morgan: Hmm. So one of the challenges that you and I have talked about is how to make sure what we bring is supplementing and helpful to the teacher. How does that translate here?

[00:12:26] Jamie Macintosh: One of the things that we’re really focused on is that we can replicate this model so that it is not based on just specific peer educators, but it’s something that is gonna continue after they graduate.

[00:12:40] So for our students, they’re able to go into schools between one and four years, and then they go off into their careers. And so what is a way that we can continue to go into schools and teach students as we get new peer educators every year to every few years. And so I think one of the things that we’ve struggled with is finding ways to be consistent as well as having each student add their voice to the presentation.

[00:13:10] Sandie Morgan: Okay. So how has the peer education model impacted student learning and engagement? And let’s talk about that from the perspective of a seventh grader or ninth grader that we’re targeting.

[00:13:27] Jamie Macintosh: So our peer educators are really the core of our program. I was just in a conference a few weeks ago where they were talking about peer recruitment, and that is using peers to recruit particularly vulnerable people into trafficking situations. And so that can be commonly referred to as peer to peer recruitment or recruitment by peers.

[00:13:51] Sandie Morgan: So wait a minute. So we’re trying to do prevention with peer-to-peer, but the traffickers are using peers as well?

[00:13:59] Jamie Macintosh: Yes. And so that’s what we’re seeing, that they’re using these various tactics and strategies like exploitation of trust, social influences, deceptive promises, manipulation of vulnerability, or even just control.

[00:14:13] Sandie Morgan: Okay, let’s break that down. So we wanna build trust and we talk about helping young people identify trusted adults, now that same element is being used against these kiddos. Explain that.

[00:14:34] Jamie Macintosh: So, a child might feel more open to listening to someone who is near or close to their age, and there is a little bit more trust in that openness, not thinking that that person is trying to do something bad to them.

[00:14:49] And so that we see that the human traffickers are using these other children who are near an age to try to bring these children into recruitment. And so we go in using near age students to then teach as well because we see that they’re more open to hearing from someone who’s close or somewhat close to their age.

[00:15:10] Sandie Morgan: Okay. So we’re building trust. What about social influence?

[00:15:15] Jamie Macintosh: So we see that traffickers can also often use social networks, including friends, acquaintances, or even online to make trafficking situations appear normal or even desirable. One of the things that our peer educators talk about is, is there someone online who’s messaging you, maybe a friend that you’ve never met?

[00:15:38] How many hands we see raised when we ask that question in the classrooms, that there’s this trust of thinking that the person on the other side of the computer is someone who’s close in their age, and it may not be.

[00:15:50] Sandie Morgan: So there is a sense that. Our ninth graders and seventh graders may be too trusting of the people on the screen.

[00:16:00] Jamie Macintosh: Yes. And not only the people on the screen, but other peers at their school where they may think, oh, that person’s just asking me for a picture because they like me. Not realizing that person might be sharing that picture with others.

[00:16:15] Sandie Morgan: That’s scary. So you also said that they use strategies that include deceptive promises. That sounds just like the definition of human trafficking where they use fraud.

[00:16:29] Jamie Macintosh: Yes. And that’s one of the things that we show the students in our presentation. We bring up Maslow’s hierarchy and our students go through. These are things that each of us need. We need food and we need shelter to feel safe.

[00:16:44] And if you’re lacking one of those things, oftentimes a trafficker will try to hit that vulnerable spot to make you feel like that you’re feeling loved or feel secure.

[00:16:57] Sandie Morgan: Two more elements you mentioned. Manipulation of vulnerability, and that falls as long as we’re using the human trafficking definition, that falls into the category of coercion.

[00:17:12] Jamie Macintosh: Yes. So we see that peer recruiters can use tactics like emotional manipulation, establishing trust and friendship before gradually introducing the idea of trafficking. My colleague Ruthie Hanchett, made this really great short film that was in partnership with teens in the Santa Ana Unified School district that shows this boyfriend asking his girlfriend to do sexual acts in exchange for money for their relationship.

[00:17:42] Sandie Morgan: Wow. And traffickers control, what is that for a seventh grader?

[00:17:49] Jamie Macintosh: So a seventh grader may feel like they’re compelled to continue recruiting for that person to avoid retaliation or harm to themselves or loved ones.

[00:18:01] we see that traffickers can often threaten or expose that person to harm, or even they would say, “I’m gonna share these things that you did with others. I’m gonna share these photos with your peers, and everyone’s gonna know what you did.”

[00:18:15] Unless,

[00:18:17] Sandie Morgan: unless, and then we move into more exploitative language and even extortion. And How do you and the peer educators try to equip these kids so that they know how to find help?

[00:18:38] Jamie Macintosh: I think we want to. Our first school is always preventative education that students can recognize the signs of human trafficking and these warning signs. But we also wanna aim to break these cycles by teaching young people how to recognize and avoid peer recruitment tactics in the future.

[00:18:58] Sandie Morgan: Yes. Okay. We can put a link to the short film.

[00:19:04] I, it’s a very revealing film when you understand that it was made, the story was created by young people for other young people, and this is an area as an educator in a university.

[00:19:23] And a longtime member of our anti-human trafficking community here in Orange County, nationally, internationally, we want to empower the kids, we wanna protect them. Sometimes we practically wanna build fences around them, but we also have to understand how important it is for us to build their resilience, their ability to identify risk and respond. And that’s kind of strengths based approach to prevention is critical and a key element in the Safe Community, Safe Kids Project.

[00:20:14] We’re almost through year one. What kind of improvement or adaptations are you looking towards for year two?

[00:20:27] Jamie Macintosh: In year two, we’re gonna double our reach. And so that means that we’re gonna double our team of peer educators as well as needing to double our partnerships. And so I think our district partnerships are our greatest asset to sustainability of our program.

[00:20:44] And so as we move forward, we want schools to welcome us into each and every classroom, and I think that would help us be consistent in delivering this education and guarantees that all students receive this important information.

[00:21:02] Sandie Morgan: So when you are in a classroom, give me an example of what the students are teaching and how they communicate.

[00:21:15] What kind of scenarios do they offer?

[00:21:18] Jamie Macintosh: Well, our program is done over two one hour presentations, and it goes over topics such as. What is human trafficking? How it happens, who is involved and affected? What are different red flags to look for? We teach students to recognize their inner voice and how to listen to it.

[00:21:41] They’re able to know what their rights, what their personal boundaries are. We say “no” is a complete sentence. the difference between healthy and unhealthy relationships. Finding who a trusted adult could be and how to take a stand. I think it’s really important that students learn this information for themselves, but they’re also learning this information to stand up for others around them.

[00:22:06] Sandie Morgan: Let’s talk about that a little more because I feel really strongly that safe communities starts in their peer community, and I’ve been very distressed. We just finished in Ensure Justice and learning from some of the teachers, from some of the social workers, child welfare that students in the same class would pass on an inappropriate picture instead of making sure they’re the ones who stop it and that.

[00:22:47] That ability to stand up for your peers. How, how do you take that to the classroom and make it an actionable, learning outcome from the peer educators with the kids?

[00:23:05] Jamie Macintosh: One of the things we talk about with the students in the presentations is how much power that they have to stop things when things are wrong.

[00:23:16] And so one of the things we ask students to do is to recognize who they can be and that they have the power now to say “no” to things that are wrong. Our peer educators, they go in and they give examples, and that’s one of the great things about the presentation, is they can show them ways that they can get out of a bad situation and give them examples.

[00:23:42] In our second lesson, we teach students the ABCs, where they’re learning to assess a bad situation. They’re learning how to recognize what’s going on, and then we give them ways to get out of that situation and find a safe environment.

[00:24:00] Sandie Morgan: So give me an example, assume that I am online and I’m trying to connect to a young person and I’m trying to reach out to everybody in that class, but my profile is fake.

[00:24:18] I’m not really 14 years old. So what do you tell a student when everybody else is excited that there’s this new, girl new guy in class and one student is suspicious, how does one student change everything for the others?

[00:24:41] Jamie Macintosh: When a student learns to speak up, I think that has more power than they recognize.

[00:24:48] And so when they are able to say, there’s something wrong here. I don’t think this is what’s going on, other peers start to listen to that and it just takes one student to do that.

[00:24:59] Sandie Morgan: I love the power of one student. That’s so important. So, let’s go back to looking at this program from the long term impact and sustainability.

[00:25:15] I am thrilled that we’re almost at the end of year one and we have such good results, and I attribute a lot of that to your leadership, your organization, and your commitment to the peer educators. They always turn to you for guidance and support when they’re out in the community, but after year three.

[00:25:43] How are we planning right now to be able to continue to deliver, to continue the sustainability?

[00:25:51] Jamie Macintosh: Thank you for your kind words. I think it’s taken a really great team who have built into the peer educators, and looking at sustainability.

[00:26:00] We want this program to continue past our grant funding, and I think district partnerships would be our greatest asset if we were to establish sustainable partnerships with school districts through MOUs,

[00:26:14] That would enable us to educate every student in the district through classroom visits. So ideally what that would look like would be districts would contribute maybe a nominal fee to access the curriculum, and then the peer educators could then deliver the content.

[00:26:29] Sandie Morgan: I think the, the magic sauce, like people talk about is the chemistry that happens when I’ve observed peer educators with a classroom full of 14, 15, 16 year olds and the energy as they’re raising their hands or just shouting out. No, don’t do that. I, I think we underestimate the value of young people keeping each other safe and how we integrate that into our day-to-day education.

[00:27:10] So looking for ways to keep this going. The sustainability it’s constantly as the executive director for the Global Center for Women and Justice, it’s constantly in my mind and I am, I’m also very aware of school districts that don’t have resources to fund some of those long term objectives. Have you thought about

[00:27:42] How the communities can begin to be part of the sustainability. What, what ways could we engage parents, other schools? Any ideas for that?

[00:27:57] Jamie Macintosh: I think as the name of our program implies, it takes a safe community to have safe kids. And so it’s all of us coming together and working together. I’ve had parents, I’ve had churches say, could we pull our money together to have this program at our youth group?

[00:28:14] And so it’s just finding other ways to get this education out.

[00:28:19] Sandie Morgan: Aand that’s where I feel really encouraged.

[00:28:22] At first, people said, well, why can’t you bring this to our school? I was like, because our grant is Orange County.

[00:28:31] And so they said, so what if we, and they began to build a strategy for their own program. So let’s take a moment and think about, what could someone do to build a program like this in their county, assuming that they don’t have Vanguard University next door? Do you have ideas?

[00:29:00] Jamie Macintosh: I think our goal is that this program would be widely used throughout the nation, and it’s not just here in Orange County.

[00:29:09] We would love for other schools or other groups of people to adopt this peer education model and send peers to teach about human trafficking into schools or youth groups or other programs. And so I think it’s beginnin to, to contact the global center. I think it could be seeing what we’re doing and trying to replicate it.

[00:29:33] Sandie Morgan: I totally agree. It is replicatable and there are ways for you to learn more about peer education, and so I encourage you to follow us, follow what Jamie Macintosh is doing in leading this program here.

[00:29:53] If you have the opportunity to join us at any of our seminars, our Ensure Justice, listen to future broadcasts on this podcast.

[00:30:07] We want this to multiply, and in many ways it reminds me of the, the little, what’s the weed that has all the little seeds? What, what do we call that?

[00:30:20] Jamie Macintosh: Oh, the dandelion.

[00:30:22] Sandie Morgan: In many ways it reminds me of a dandelion, and as you listen to this podcast, I would want those seeds to find their way to your community because building safe communities with our kids is the future of how we keep our kids safe.

[00:30:39] Building resilience in a digital world where kids can recognize the risk, the exploiters, and determine to be the one to step up and protect their friends, their co-students. I am so excited about this episode, Jamie, and I wanna thank you for doing this interview.

[00:31:10] Jamie Macintosh: Thank you, Dr. Morgan for having me on today and for just your support in this program and I’m excited to see where it continues to go and how it continues to grow and how others can have this program and grow it in their community too.

[00:31:24] Sandie Morgan: All right, we’ll look forward to that.

[00:31:27] Listeners, I encourage you to take the next step by visiting our website at endinghumantrafficking.org. If you haven’t visited the site before, be sure to subscribe so you can stay up to date with everything we share.

[00:31:52] You can access show notes from today’s episode and peruse the past episodes. We’d also love your help in growing this podcast. If you know someone who would benefit from this conversation. Invite them to subscribe and join our community. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn.

[00:32:19] Thank you for listening. I’ll be back in two weeks.

View Details

David Tyree joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss how financial crime investigations can disrupt human trafficking by following the money trail and identifying the financial networks that support trafficking operations.

David TyreeDavid Tyree has over 25 years of experience as a DEA Agent and financial crime investigator. He has led major investigations into money laundering and drug trafficking and is a recognized expert in financial crime investigations. He trains law enforcement officers on detecting money laundering and asset forfeiture. Recently, he participated in the Follow the Money Roundtable with Valid8 at Vanguard University.

Key Points* Financial investigations provide a new way to combat human trafficking by identifying and disrupting illicit financial networks. * Traffickers exploit financial tools like Venmo, Cash App, and Zelle to move money, making it critical for law enforcement to track these transactions. * Financial crime investigations allow law enforcement to build strong cases that do not rely solely on victim testimony, reducing re-traumatization. * Traffickers often control victims financially, making it difficult for them to escape without outside intervention. * Asset forfeiture is a powerful tool that law enforcement can use to take away traffickers’ financial resources and prevent them from reconstituting their operations. * Banks and financial institutions play a crucial role in identifying suspicious activity, such as rapid money transfers, and working with law enforcement to stop trafficking networks. * Understanding financial literacy is key to preventing individuals from becoming vulnerable to trafficking and exploitation. * Law enforcement needs to build trust with victims by offering support rather than immediately pressuring them to testify. * Successful investigations require collaboration between financial institutions, law enforcement, and victim service organizations. * The ability to follow the money provides a tangible way to prosecute traffickers and provide financial restitution to victims. * Financial restitution is often the most meaningful form of justice for survivors, as it helps them rebuild their lives. * Educating financial institutions and law enforcement about trafficking-related financial patterns can significantly improve prevention and intervention efforts.

Resources* LinkedIn * Valid8 * Venmo – Law Enforcement Inquiries * Cash App (Square) – Government Agency Requests * Zelle – Subpoena Processing * Facebook/Instagram – Information for Law Enforcement * Snapchat – Information for Law Enforcement

Transcript[00:00:00] Sandie: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we equip you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference. Infighting Human Trafficking here at the Global Center for Women and Justice at Vanguard University. This is episode number 341 with David Tyree following the money, How Financial Crime Investigations Disrupt Human Trafficking. David Tyree has over 25 years of experience as a D.E.A. Agent and financial crime investigator.

[00:00:43] He has led major investigations into money laundering and drug trafficking and is a recognized expert in financial crime investigation, crime and trains law enforcement officers on detecting money laundering and asset forfeiture. Recently, he participated in the Follow the Money Roundtable with Valid8 right here at Vanguard University.

[00:01:11] David, welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast.

[00:01:15] David Tyree: Thank you. I’m so honored to be a part of this. I’m so impressed that you have 341 episodes. And I bet we can agree, wouldn’t it be nice if we didn’t have to do podcasts about this? Could we, if we could actually end this epidemic, it would just be fascinating and we could go do something different.

[00:01:33] Sandie: I love that you are bringing a little different perspective to our community. We have listeners in 171 countries. And the, I, a lot of the conversation has been about identifying victims, providing victim support, training law enforcement on victim centered care, trauma informed, all of these aspects that are so necessary. But there are people with skill sets that we haven’t really included in our conversation. And I think today, that’s going to be part of what you help us understand about how financial investigations connect to human trafficking. So let’s just start off, because I know people want to get to know you, how did you choose to pursue financial aspects of human trafficking investigation?

[00:02:34] David Tyree: Well, that’s that’s a great question. And I would just start with some background. So I was with the Drug Enforcement Administration as a special agent for, yeah, 25 years. I started in New Mexico. So in Albuquerque, where this is back in the nineties, late nineties, and there was human trafficking back then.

[00:02:52] We probably didn’t know what it was but one of my functions as an agent was to do hotel, motel, and train interdiction.

[00:03:03] Sandie: Wait a minute, wait a minute. Interdiction. That’s like a word. I don’t really think I could define.

[00:03:08] David Tyree: Oh, sure. interdiction means to stop, to intercede,

[00:03:13] Sandie: Oh, you just have to, use big words? Is that.

[00:03:16] David Tyree: I just, that’s what they called us. We were an interdiction unit. I didn’t really know what it meant. I just, uh, did what they told me.

[00:03:22] Sandie: Okay, so continue that story.

[00:03:25] David Tyree: Interdiction. is a law enforcement term that refers to sort of stopping, like interceding, and there’s different forms of interdiction.

[00:03:34] You might read in the paper about a large traffic stop, drug seizure in the middle of some interstate somewhere. That’s usually referred to in law enforcement circles as an interdiction. They stopped the ability of this narcotics trafficker to transit to their final destination or money going in the opposite direction.

[00:03:54] So in my initial endeavors, we were responding to tips. We were looking for last minute one way cash travel, and it often involved hotels and it often involved prostitution, which arguably, you know, where was it? Human trafficking? Where was a prostitution? We were looking at the same indicators.

[00:04:18] And so early on in my career, I started having contact with victims that were being trafficked or prostituted against their will. And I’m 23, 24 years old, and it opened up my eyes quickly to something that struck me that someone was making a profit off of the exploitation of these people, which falls in line with narcotics trafficking as well, right?

[00:04:43] There’s people that are making a profit off essentially addiction, which is sad to me, and something I experienced personally growing up in my family, seeing some folks in my family that were struggling with addiction and, have since made it into recovery, which is great. And they would say to me, David, you got to follow the money.

[00:05:03] Someone’s making a profit off of my misery. So I then, after about five years, transferred to Portland, Oregon, and I was put with the drugs and vice team, uh, with the Portland Police Bureau, an incredible group of investigators. Again, we were doing the same thing, targeting, drug trafficking organizations.

[00:05:21] And it always brought us with the vice team into these hotel motel. Knock and talk investigations where we kept seeing the same thing, there’d be two or three women, in one room they were going to another room. We were not exactly sure what we were looking at and it was very challenging to get them to identify as victims.

[00:05:44] Dr. Morgan, I’m going to tell you that, and that’s been the hardest part,

[00:05:48] Sandie: and that, that’s one of the things people often have this idea that victims are waiting to be rescued, waving their arms, saying, here I am, come and get me. And then when you say they don’t identify as victims, how do we help them? And further down the line, when we get to the point where we want to prosecute the predators most of our criminal justice system is based on witness testimony and you bring a new component because we need to be able to prosecute these cases without re traumatizing victims.

[00:06:32] David Tyree: Well, and so easy for me to talk about solution, and we’ll get to the money movement, but I will tell you this, and we’ll go into the deep end of the pool. And this is not an original thought, by the way, but I know, from training experience and lived experiences, there are three circles of, essentially, they intersect.

[00:06:53] These three circles would be motivations. So there’s power, there’s achievement and there’s association. And these three circles sometimes intersect, oftentimes they don’t, but to the human trafficked victim, when you try and put them in one of those circles, they’re in association, they’re, they’re associating with other victims.

[00:07:17] They’re associating with the, pimps and those that are running these organizations. Those folks running these organizations are all about power. And so when the 171 countries listen, think about speaking to someone who’s potentially a victim. You have to critically understand how important that motivation of association is, and to go and tell somebody you’re on fire, what’s happening is not right, and they’re looking at their associates, and this has now become their mechanism to pay for their lifestyles.

[00:07:54] You’re coming to take that away, and if you, you’re just another power circle. My goal, and what I watch some incredible detectives and agents do. Was they examined that motivation in advance of that initial contact and they thought, well, what can I do here? And it was, I’m going to associate how I’m going to associate with somebody who’s being trafficked is recognize how hard it is sometimes financially to make ends meet.

[00:08:22] Do you see? And if this is not manipulative, you’re using a very human, empathetic gift that I think we all can tap into and all of a sudden as you make that association, you do one thing and it’s established trust and when you establish trust, which is, I think, the greatest gift the universe gives us, you have to hold it really gently and to our conversation when we met it was, how can I in this association create a safe space without the notion of trying to manipulate somebody to become a witness, that’s, that’s definitely on the table.

[00:08:57] We want to get the perpetrators prosecuted. Not necessarily at the expense of re traumatizing the victim. So, I would joke, not joke, but I guess that’s the wrong word. I would often see us spinning plates. And trying to examine motivation and then we as law enforcement had to shift our motivation because we went from we’re going to get the guy in the parking lot in the rental car that’s exploiting these women and then we’re having conversations with these women who were almost in an argument about their role and it really took away from our efficacy because then we just became another power if that makes sense.

[00:09:39] And that was we learned quickly how that took away from our efficacy. And so I know that again when I say deep into the pool, I’m always speaking with law enforcement about what’s the motivation here. Because for police, by the way, it can be power. It can also be achievement. And we also bring association into that environment, just as law enforcement associating with law enforcement.

[00:10:04] So again, deep end of the pool. Cops are pretty guarded. They’re not really trusting, right? We’ve been lied to so much. We’re not fun at parties. How you as law enforcement can sort of take off that jacket and say, you know, I actually Started to do this because I wanted to help people, you sort of have to go back to your roots and again convincing a victim that they’re a victim probably not the best move at your initial contact you. What like you’re doing.

[00:10:35] You’re providing a safe space. You’re allowing someone to decompress from trauma and I can tell you from being around police that have been in shootings and myself as well, sometimes it takes days to decompress from those critical incidents. So imagine taking someone out of an environment where they’ve been trafficked, they don’t have the mechanisms to leave, they don’t believe they’re being trafficked, and you’re now pressing them trying to get critical evidence against your perpetrators.

[00:11:05] Police solve problems in 15 minutes or less. That’s just how it works. And so you put them in this and that’s not to say that they can’t get there, but I just think it takes a lot of heart and it takes you have to see people. I think differently. And that’s where it goes back to, to me following the money because I can tell you when I started doing this and I started watching the Cheyenne police department was in my office.

[00:11:33] They were all sworn through FBI and they were the human trafficking task force. Incredible. They taught me so much. They did so much great work. And when they showed me how to follow the money through green dot cards that were all being uploaded by bad guys that were frequenting these traffic victims and then moving to a prison facility in California.

[00:11:57] It was fascinating and it was, I thought, this is a one time isolated event, like a polaroid, a snapshot, seven women, one guy in the parking lot. These detectives showed me these people were going all over the country doing this, being exploited, getting onto different websites to advertise their services.

[00:12:18] It shocked me to see how much money was moving. So I started learning quite a bit about the money movement, which was oftentimes double charges at the door at the hotel room door. There was an entry fee. Normally it seemed like 70 to 80 dollars and then a secondary fee of 15 to 20 dollars. Apparently this is a tip for services rendered that money was moving from our, whoever frequent in these women, it would move from their account.

[00:12:47] To the woman’s phone that had some sort of money cash app. Zelle, Venmo, you name it. They had a mechanism to collect that money. And then it moved again to the bad guy sitting in the parking lot.

[00:13:02] Sandie: So, Financial investigation, how do you access and investigate those kinds of transactions?

[00:13:12] David Tyree: Those money service providers will help. They all have law enforcement portals. There is a subpoena process. Those I’m not promoting any of them. I don’t use any of them, but their law enforcement support services were incredible. So there is a judicial process, right? We had to get subpoenas.

[00:13:32] We had to look at first name only, addresses that were attributed to the accounts. And then you start making a picture You start to see money move, you get voluminous documents back, which is why I went to work for Valid8 because they’re the only company I know that makes sense of that money movement.

[00:13:52] Shameless plug for Valid8.

[00:13:54] Sandie: let’s let’s describe, we’ll take a little pause here from the big picture the idea that you get voluminous data, so much data, it’s overwhelming. So this software is going to save you from manually going through all of these transactions. Is that kind of the idea?

[00:14:19] David Tyree: yes, and that’s not why I’m such a fan. Yes, it makes it, money is fungible, right? It moves very quickly and it doesn’t lie. Bank records don’t lie. Witnesses lie. Informants lie. Arguably any witness can lie. The bank records tell a story of money movement and that money movement, in my opinion, tells a story to the jury.

[00:14:43] It tells a story to the prosecutor because juries, they may not understand human trafficking, financial literacy, how, how this operation, you know, is created and, and the defense can tear that apart. What they can’t tear apart is these 17 women have been sending that guy money all over the country.

[00:15:06] And he has rental cars in every hotel city where they frequented. And once the money hits the guy in the rental car, who’s managing this, the money moves to some other bad actor in another state. That to me is the most concrete evidence that a jury has to look at and say, well, that is beyond a reasonable doubt.

[00:15:26] This is not normal. This is not how my money works. So that’s when we say, follow the money. I want to tell a story. I want to tell a story that cannot be refuted because these are bank records. So the voluminosity around all of that, it does \ tend to overwhelm law enforcement because we were meaning making animals.

[00:15:49] We need to make a quick story that we can articulate and that’s why I, when we talk about following the money, I’m like an action, the money, that money is going to somebody who is higher up in the organization. And they may have assets that they’ve acquired through the exploitation of these victims that we need to go after.

[00:16:09] So we can get these victims financial restitution. And as we spoke about, not just restitution, but financial literacy, now that you’ve been, we, you, you’ve been compensated as a victim, and now you have this money. How can we help you as a society? So you are not drawn back into this solution when times are tough.

[00:16:33] Sandie: So let’s, break that, that last section up into two parts. First, talk a little bit more about, asset forfeiture and restitution. And then let’s move into the financial literacy conversation.

[00:16:49] David Tyree: Perfect. Yeah. So the asset forfeiture piece is at the federal level and at many states is, teeth. And what that, what those teeth do is take a bite out of the criminal organization’s ability to reconstitute. So you, you take their money. This is my lived experience at DEA, I participated in the seizure

[00:17:11] A lot of money and at times I’ve seen these organizations crumble because they’re not able to reconstitute. Taking their drugs is great. Trust me, take them off the streets, a big deal. It’s arguably a 99 percent profit margin so they can get more drugs. They can reconstitute narcotics. You take their money and now they have a really difficult time paying off debts, paying off obligations, paying traffickers, paying the organization.

[00:17:40] So, in my professional opinion, it is a tool to combat crime. And I’m very careful to not articulate some idea that this is the only tool because I think again, going back to those three motivations, if I say money laundering, following the money is the only way to do this. I lose association and I move over to power and achievement.

[00:18:03] So I’m always trying to stay where I’m most comfortable, which is association. I’m deep in my head, Dr. Morgan.

[00:18:09] Sandie: No, I love it. I love it. We could talk for hours and this is why, when I was titling this episode, I used the terminology of financial crime investigations that disrupt

[00:18:24] human trafficking and so that part means that we don’t have the arrogance to think our approach is the be all and end all of in this battle, but we do have to be more inclusive as a movement to consider the perspective as well as the tools and the ability to investigate from a different perspective. So now we’re talking about the forfeiture and then victim compensation. I think that restitution piece has an element of, healing that has been overlooked. We look at it in hard, cold, social justice, criminal justice perspectives. But when I talk to victims, when they receive restitution no matter how much it is, that’s what they report to me as the most significant aspect of their case. When I talk to them about how many years the perpetrator got and is, they’re not really that interested in talking about that. So when, in your experience with restitution, I was really surprised to hear from a numbers being counter, I have stereotypes about, how you guys think and all, that your heart came to the table because the first thing you wanted to do is equip those victims with financial literacy. Can you explain how you came to that conclusion?

[00:20:11] David Tyree: Absolutely. So, and I, we can agree, it’s a really complicated multifaceted problem, right? I’ll go back when we were combating methamphetamine in the mid 2000s. We did this the faces of meth campaign and billboards around the country were showing sort of that transition with a methamphetamine user to a full blown addict and it sent a message.

[00:20:36] We put victims up around the country and it actually, I think from the numbers, impacted people in their decision process about, hey, am I going to really go down the methamphetamine avenue? When we think about what struck my heart on human trafficking were interviews in the field. And you and I were, were probably very blessed.

[00:21:01] Like I don’t often think about 60 dollars being the way I can feed my kid for the week and get them, pay for their field trip. Right. And I think in the drug world, doing undercover, I saw greed, I saw a lot of greed from drug traffickers. I also saw, in my experiences doing some re entry work in the courts, people coming out of prison.

[00:21:27] And I’ll never forget, it was a gangster’s disciple who had to come up with, child support and some other obligations. And he did not know I was with DEA. I was with a judge and some other individuals doing some re entry work. And he said, I could easily sell two pounds of marijuana and pay off all my debts and be stress free the rest of the week.

[00:21:46] He goes, but I’m not. I’m going to go to Home Depot. I’m going to work my shifts and I’m going to make my financial obligations because he had been exposed to some financial literacy training. All of a sudden he was thinking about 401ks and savings accounts. When we think about those that are maybe not bankable or who just don’t have the financial where withal to make ends meet.

[00:22:10] That creates a lot of desperation, but by the grace of God, I haven’t had to be there yet. I’m knocking on wood, but imagine how that must feel. So when we talk about financial literacy, that’s a big word in to say, hey, listen, you’re going to get this restitution and whatever that amount is, we want to help you set yourself up for failure because clearly there’s been some impulsive decisions around what to do when times get tough.

[00:22:39] So we are going to walk with you through getting your driver’s license back. That’s a fee. You know, 30 bucks to you and me is ah, I lost my license to somebody only has 180 dollars. They’re like, I’m not going to have a license that is doesn’t write the Maslow’s triangle of needs. So doing some of those interviews and watching truly many of these women had children that they were trying to look after, or they had a court fee where they were trying to deal with custody.

[00:23:11] And these women I felt would do anything, anything to take care of outside needs. I wasn’t seeing as law enforcement. So it was getting to know some of these women walking with them and working with social services to create, not just like a, a net, but a springboard and it sounds really silly, Sandie, but if no one’s going to drive you to the bank and you don’t have a driver’s license, you’re not getting a bank account.

[00:23:43] So all the restitution in the world doesn’t matter if you get a check and you’re like, I don’t bank anywhere. My function and really watching the Cheyenne police department detectives, they teamed up with social services and I was in awe of the commitment they made because their mindset was no more victims.

[00:24:05] And I thought, no more victims? And they said, not in our city. And it wasn’t about arresting their way out of the problem. These are really thoughtful, smart, inspiring detectives, who at times, I know, dipped into their own wallets to create an environment where these people, these victims, were made safe.

[00:24:26] And, and I know I’m not talking about throwing money at the problem. I’m talking about throwing your heart and soul at a problem and, and being so empathetic and nonjudgmental. That was the number one for me. I have two daughters. I, I, I have to go into this situation with zero judgment, zero eye rolls, zero.

[00:24:48] My only motivation again was association because through that association, I built trust and I listened. And I validated as much as I talk. I learned through a counselor to listen and all I had to say was, that sounds really hard. That sounds really hard. So as they’re telling me, Hey, listen, I’m not a victim here.

[00:25:09] You know, men have been arguing. I can’t sell my body. It’s my body. I’m going to do what I want. And you don’t have any idea what it’s like when rents due and there’s no food on the table. I’m going to do what I need to do. My David response was like, whoa, whoa, whoa instead, I would just go, that sounds really hard.

[00:25:27] Your financial circumstances sound really, really challenging. I’m so sorry for that. They were not necessarily looking for sympathy. In fact, I was told to drop, I’m sorry that it was implied. Because again, I’m just building trust through validation. And what is my motivation? It’s not power. The last thing is power.

[00:25:45] So everything was question driven. Do you have a place to stay tonight? Do you have safe accommodations? Do you need any medicine? Do your children need any medicine? It was radical curiosity and really from a sincere place, honestly, I hope it doesn’t sound manipulative, but what I was trying to do was quickly

[00:26:06] build trust and not be a power source, but be somebody who is trying to associate. And they actually are really good in general. They at problem solving for the most part, they’re like, no, I don’t have a place to say I need a place to stay. If I didn’t have a place, I just destroyed trust right then and there.

[00:26:26] Right. So we, though we were very tactical in our approaches and while we’re doing all this. We have a warrant for the phones. We’re dumping the phone. We’re finding where the money’s moving. We were reaching out to financial institutions. I got to tell you, FinCEN, the financial crimes network, they have set a threshold for banks to alert to what could be suspicious activity.

[00:26:48] It’s 5, 000 dollars. I’ve never gotten into a case at a hotel, at a bus station, that there was 5, 000 dollars of movement. So we started educating financial institutions. We started giving them methodology. We asked them what to look for and without naming any banks, I got to tell you. Every bank I dealt with was so on board with being part of the solution.

[00:27:12] So on board with saying FinCEN that’s great because of what DEA and the Cheyenne Police Department have told us we’re not gonna we’re going to ignore that threshold and we’re going to look for this typology and money movement. Which is again David Tyree lives in northern Colorado If i’m traveling to Arkansas and you see that i’m getting i’m paying for a hotel at the Marriott and i’m also paying for a hotel at the motel six. Well, that should, that’s strange.

[00:27:39] And then if you see on my debit card, double payment within an hour, first name only at Venmo.com or at Cash app.com. This is important. And the financial institution needs to alert that. And they need to, once they’ve done their due diligence, they need to notify law enforcement in that area. Hey, you’ve got somebody in that, in your city perpetrating crime.

[00:28:00] It may be human trafficking. It may be prostitution. I tell you what, you know, the difference is Sandie. If that girl, woman is underage, if she’s 17, it’s human trafficking at the federal level. If they don’t have their identification or mechanism to leave that environment, they don’t get their luggage, they don’t, you’ve got human trafficking.

[00:28:18] And guess who your good witness is? The guy that’s perpetrating the prostitution or human trafficking crime. That guy, because guess who I’m going to call? I shouldn’t even say this online. Hey, you have two choices. You can jump on the law enforcement. I’m going to help you raft. Or we might need to reach out to your company and your wife to confirm your travel.

[00:28:40] Does she know you’re paying for two rooms? Now, I moved from association to power.

[00:28:47] Sandie: Wow, it is so clear that you are passionate about the work you’re doing to disrupt human trafficking. A couple of observations from my perspective is it was new for me to begin to think that curiosity about financial issues goes the other direction. Those questions. And I have talked to victim service providers.

[00:29:16] I’ve talked to victims and the concerns that you uncover. Do you have a place to stay? Can you pay for your kids schooling? Those are all things that have been part of the conversation. So following the money from the victim’s perspective, maybe a slightly new perspective for some folks, to begin to understand why restitution is significant. And I don’t want to drop off from the conversation around financial literacy because that missing that particular aspect of this will make it much more certain that a victim may fall into the same patterns

[00:30:08] again and again. So, I have so much to think about with where we can beef up that aspect of our approach, from the victim side, I want to understand and learn more about following the money at a higher level. And I just, I’m so grateful for your insight and as a closing question, I, I want to go back to earlier and talk about your why, and you thanked me at the beginning as we got online, to start this podcast. And so if you can give us that personal perspective, your why.

[00:31:00] David Tyree: Great question. I have gotten my hands dirty in my life doing these kinds of investigations, not just in the U.S in Europe and West Africa. And I have seen up close and personal the exploitation of human beings. And as much as I like to use my sense of humor or create distance, it left a mark. It left a mark on me that’s indelible and, it touches home.

[00:31:29] I mean, like I’ve told you, I have two daughters and a son and they were concerned when human trafficking was becoming a big issue. And so, for my ability to decompress from a hotel, environment, with the Cheyenne Police Department and their human trafficking cases, I had a 45 minute commute back home and the message in my head was don’t forget, don’t forget, don’t forget because it’s so hard to see it up close and personal and these are real people with the same problems I have just at a different level and I have not been able to shake it and there’s days I wish I could and I’m not, trust me, I’m, I’m no saint and I, there’s so much more I want to be able to do.

[00:32:18] What my why goes back to is there is somebody making a profit off of that misery and I will get with Cash App, Venmo, Apple Pay, and I will paint a picture and I’m going to take their money, I’m going to put them in prison, the people that are making money off that person, I’m going to take their money, I’m going to put them in prison, I’m going to follow the money, I’m going to make a story, and I will take out the economic incentive to exploit

[00:32:46] the least of us and it, it drives me every morning, gets me out of bed and I retired. But before our call, I was called consulting DEA on a case and it just wrecks me because at the end of this case, a lot of money movement are overdose victims from fentanyl and I know from growing up in an addicted home, the misery, like you can say, Oh, overdose.

[00:33:11] That’s so sad. Person’s deceased. They were using drugs. That’s a bad idea. There’s a family behind that victim. There’s a mom, there’s a dad, there’s uncle, and they’re hurting. And I feel like it’s not just law enforcement. It’s all of us as a society. Like we can get behind maybe nothing politically, but certainly corporately as human beings that this is not okay.

[00:33:37] We know it’s not okay. We’ve put an end to slavery. We know this is wrong. Let’s attack those that are making financial gain off the misery of others. Let’s say not today. And this is how we’re going to do it. And Dr. Morgan, I’ll send you, for your listeners, every link I have to every cash money transfer system.

[00:33:58] They’re so helpful, through these law enforcement portals. I’m always available, day or night, if someone has a question. If I don’t know the answer, I’ll point them in the right direction. I’m just so passionate about this because as you know

[00:34:10] There is hope. There is hope. And if you want to kill my hope, you’re going to have to kill me. I will not. I will not. And this sounds hyperbolic, but it’s what gets me. I’m not going to surrender the only thing that gives me any strength in this is hope. I hope. That there’s a change in there that light at the end of the tunnel is not an oncoming train, but through folks like you and your organization that we’re actually creating light and we’re creating opportunity because I’m not AI, but you ask AI how to cure this.

[00:34:41] It will tell you. Create opportunity.

[00:34:44] Sandie: Wow. David, it has been such a pleasure and hope is part of our mission statement here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women in Justice. And our listeners, if you found this episode helpful, jump over to the ending human trafficking.org website, subscribe, leave a review, find the show notes, join us and share this with others that you think might benefit and post on social media. David, this has been such an energizing conversation. I’m sure I’m going to be waking up in the middle of the night for days and I look forward to our next conversation. Thank you for joining us.

[00:35:35] David Tyree: Well, it is an honor and I am so proud to be a part of your solution. It means the world to me. So I was looking forward to this from the moment we met and, anything I can do to be part of that solution to be part of your solution. I’ll just bask in your glory,

[00:35:50] but it’s wonderful what you are doing and it takes so much courage and to your listeners to even download a podcast about ending human trafficking.

[00:36:00] This takes courage. This is what we’re built for. We are built for storms and it, it, I’m so I’ll get off this and I’ll be all, my wife will think I’m all caffeinated. I’m like, no, I got to speak about something I’m passionate about. And, uh, so I thank you for the opportunity.

[00:36:17] Sandie: Oh, that’s great. And to our listeners, I’ll see you again in two weeks.

View Details

Rabbi Diana Gerson joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss how faith-based communities can play a critical role in protecting children online and building a network of trusted community leaders.

Rabbi Diana GersonRabbi Diana Gerson is the Associate Executive Vice President of the New York Board of Rabbis. She represents the organization at the United Nations and leads interfaith initiatives focused on child welfare, community resilience, and violence prevention. She is a member of the Child Dignity in a Digital World initiative and serves as Senior Advisor for Partnerships and External Relationships at the Interfaith Alliance for Safer Communities. She co-founded the Global Advocacy Hub for Children and Families and is the USA Country Coordinator for the Global Network of Religions for Children. In 2024, she was appointed to the UNHCR Multi-Religious Council of Leaders.

Key Points* Faith-based communities play a crucial but often overlooked role in child protection. Religious institutions, such as houses of worship and community centers, function as youth-serving organizations and must take responsibility for safeguarding children. * Digital literacy is a fundamental skill for both children and adults. Many older generations struggle with technology, yet children are highly adept at navigating digital spaces, often without understanding the risks. * Free apps are not truly free—when users don’t pay with money, they pay with their personal data. Parents and faith leaders must educate themselves on the risks of digital platforms and the terms and conditions that affect privacy and safety. * Child protection policies in faith-based institutions should match those of public schools, including background checks, training, and accountability measures for both staff and volunteers. * There is no single “safe” place for children—every organization must have observable and interruptible spaces to ensure child safety. Parents must take an active role in monitoring these environments. * Online exploitation is a growing crisis, fueled by the ease of image sharing on digital platforms. Faith-based organizations must recognize their responsibility in digital safety education and safeguarding measures. * Many faith-based organizations lack proper protocols for reporting abuse. Instead of conducting internal investigations first, they must follow legal reporting requirements and ensure transparency. * Faith leaders can be powerful advocates for online safety and child protection by integrating these issues into sermons and community discussions. These conversations should not be relegated to separate, optional trainings but rather be normalized as part of faith-based teaching. * Partnering with faith-based organizations in digital literacy efforts is essential. Trainings should start with executive-level leaders and then expand to parents, staff, and youth members. * Involving trusted religious leaders in digital safety initiatives can help overcome parental resistance. When faith leaders co-facilitate trainings, parents are more likely to trust and engage with the material. * Normalizing discussions about technology and online risks is as crucial as past societal shifts in addressing domestic violence, child abuse, and public health issues like cancer. Faith leaders must lead by example in these conversations. * Young people must be seen as part of the solution, not just future stakeholders. Engaging them in leadership roles and advocacy efforts empowers them to protect themselves and their peers.

Resources* LinkedIn – Rabbi Diana Gerson * Instagram – Rabbi Diana Gerson

Transcript[00:00:00] Sandie: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice right here in Orange County, California. This is episode number 340, Building a Network of Trusted Community Leaders with Rabbi Diana Gerson. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan,

[00:00:23] and this is a show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I am so delighted to have Rabbi Diana Gerson with me today. She is the Associate Executive Vice President of the New York Board of Rabbis. But she is so much more,

[00:00:49] she represents the organization at the United Nations and leads interfaith initiatives focused on child welfare, community resilience, and violence prevention. I want to just list, the organizations that she is involved as members or serving on in some way. Just to highlight the value of that connectedness and overlapping networks, She’s a member of the Child Dignity In a digital world. She was appointed senior advisor for partnerships and external relationships at the interfaith Alliance for safer communities. She co founded the global advocacy hub for children and families. And she’s the USA country coordinator for the global network of religions for children. She was also appointed in 2024 to the UNHCR multi religious council of leaders. Wow, that is a mouthful, I had to take several breaths. Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, Diana.

[00:02:08] Diana: Thank you, Sandie, so much for having me. It is wonderful to be back.

[00:02:12] Sandie: That’s right. That’s right. You’ve been on here before and I imagine we will find time to do this again. you’re going to be at Ensure Justice this year and the aspect of how we keep our kids safe online in a brand new digital world, there is a role for faith based communities to play that we often don’t talk about.

[00:02:38] We talk about parents need to do this, schools need to do that. So tell us how the faith based community can join.

[00:02:47] Diana: It’s an amazing thing that happens when we talk about children, because children intersect. And pull together all the threads of community. Children go to school, children are at home, children have networks of friends, they belong to the Girl Scouts, they go to, Cub Scouts, and they’re in Little League, and soccer, and art, and dance.

[00:03:08] But they’re also essential members of our faith communities. In fact, if we think about it for a second, faith communities and religious institutions, faith institutions, whether they’re houses of worship, community centers, the YMCA, the JCC, etc, they are all youth serving organizations. We don’t often frame it that way.

[00:03:30] We don’t think about it in those terms, but they are. And every single faith based institution has computers. We have computers, we have Wi Fi, we have digital footprints, we have access to educational opportunities, we intersect online all the time, with those institutions. So we have a really important role in the safeguarding of children and being a resource in actually building global citizenship and digital literacy.

[00:04:05] If we’re not part of the conversation, we’re part of the problem.

[00:04:09] Sandie: Okay. So. Let’s sit for a minute in what digital literacy actually means, because I’m pretty sure there are communities of folks my age, the grandmas and the grandpas, who feel totally out of sync and unable to engage with their grandkids, because digital literacy is such a looming mountain to climb.

[00:04:37] Diana: Oh my goodness. What does it even mean to be digitally literate? I, I meet people all the time and they’re like, I’m really good on my desktop computer, but I can’t quite figure out my iPad. I’m really good on my phone, but it doesn’t really coordinate with my laptop. And what I have found is if I ask a seven year old, they can tell me how to figure all of it out.

[00:04:59] Children today don’t see the world in that way. So understanding a few basic things about your, your device, right? Digital literacy means understanding the device itself. This is a supercomputer. The cell phone today is no longer a telephone that’s attached to the wall in the house.

[00:05:16] It’s no longer a place where it’s a conversation just between two people. This is a supercomputer that connects you to anything in the world. It is the most extraordinary gift we have given to our children. And it is the greatest threat that we have put in their very hands. We have such a responsibility to understand the device and the programs that The child is using and who they are communicating with through that device every single day.

[00:05:47] We see these apps. And I remember once talking to a parent, Oh, my child can download anything that’s free.

[00:05:54] Sandie: Oh,

[00:05:55] Diana: I’m like, Nothing is free. So what does that exactly mean? So the parent is saying, Oh, my child could buy anything that, you know, download anything out of the app store so long as it doesn’t cost me, the parent, anything.

[00:06:09] And I’m like, you do understand that if you’re not paying for something, you, the user, you are the commodity. They are buying and selling your information. Now, you go and you download an app. We’ve all done it. We download an app. Now what? Terms and conditions. How many of us have read all the terms and conditions, and I, I dare anybody to read them out loud.

[00:06:33] It’s like watching paint dry.

[00:06:36] Sandie: hmm.

[00:06:36] Diana: It’s a lot of legalese, and we have absolutely no idea what is embedded in there. I’ll give you a small example. Bitmoji. Bitmoji, you go into the terms and conditions, you click yes, okay, you didn’t pay much attention. But if you actually use Bitmoji, and go directly from the app, into your text messages, and send it, Bitmoji now owns all of your text.

[00:07:00] Yes, indeed, that they now have access to all the information on your device. So think about it, the terms and conditions are actually quite important to understand how your information is being used.

[00:07:14] Sandie: Hmm.

[00:07:15] Diana: This is part of digital literacy. We have to understand what’s inside the actual applications, because that’s what they are, they’re applications, the websites we are accessing, how our information is being used, misused, safeguarded, or not.

[00:07:33] So we have to look at all of those aspects when we’re looking at anything that’s on one of these devices. Whether it’s our cell phones, whether it’s the iPad, the laptop, you name it, anything that connects to the internet today is a potential threat. Through the internet, we give our children access to the world.

[00:07:53] We saw during COVID kids could go online, they could do their education, they could take a digital virtual trip. and explore the world, history, culture, music, art, nature. However, we’re also giving the world access to our children. And we have to be conscious of that because we have no idea who’s on the other end of that conversation.

[00:08:16] Sandie: Okay. So, when we started, and you ran through a list of youth facing, faith based organizations, names that are household names for me, I’ve been focused here at the Global Center on educating parents and working with schools and teachers. But when I talk to parents, I realize they feel a sense of safety if they drop their kids off at their, faith based organizations, youth activities.

[00:08:54] It’s so much safer, or there’s just this sense that, I don’t need to worry right now, even to the point of, maybe even oversimplifying this, but sending them to a faith based school because it will be safer. And so I’m curious how, how we can hold those. organizations to the same level of accountability that we do, for instance, to our public schools.

[00:09:26] Diana: Well, they should be following the same rules and regulations, that’s to start. And that means when they’re doing hiring, they should be doing background checks, including the registry for,for child abuse. We should be checking references. We should be training them. And then we need to monitor.

[00:09:47] So that’s from the start. That’s who they employ. It should also carry over to who volunteers. Not every person is a safe person. Not everybody who’s ever perpetrated has been caught, held accountable. They’re not on a registry.

[00:10:03] Sandie: Mm.

[00:10:04] Diana: we have to be mindful of where we leave our children and to understand that there is no one place that is going to 100 percent be a safe place.

[00:10:13] And I don’t say that to create a sense of panic, but a sense of ownership, that I have a responsibility in these spaces as well. That all the spaces where children are should be observable and interruptible. Everything should be out in the open, their child protection policies. Just like the school, the public school, it should be online, it should be visible, that we know that every one of our institutions where a child will be is a safer place.

[00:10:45] We’re mindful of our responsibility. So we have those policies, the training, it’s all available for people to understand, to see, and we welcome parents to participate in those trainings as well. I think it’s really, really important to think. even in those spaces that they’re following the same rules and regulations.

[00:11:06] I’ll give you an example. There was a JCC camp, summer day camp. Oh, the JCC is the Jewish community center.

[00:11:16] Sandie: Oh, okay.

[00:11:17] Diana: It’s like going to the YMCA. It’s exactly the same thing. It’s a community center. It’s faith based. You get kids from every religious background. It’s like the summer camp in the neighborhood. And everybody, whether they’re Jewish, not Jewish, they take their kids there.

[00:11:32] And there’s a JCC and they, this is in the days, gosh, late nineties.

[00:11:39] Sandie: Mm.

[00:11:40] Diana: And there’s a situation where, you know, the counselors are there, they’ve been hired. There’s hasn’t been a lot of, background checks and other things that we’re supposed to be doing to by today’s standard nineties was a different time and place.

[00:11:53] So thinking roughly 25, 30 years ago. And what they find later on after the summer is over that one of the summer camp counselors had been taking images, pictures of boys changing after swim in the locker room.

[00:12:12] Sandie: Mm.

[00:12:13] Diana: and has sold those pictures to a website.

[00:12:17] Sandie: Mm.

[00:12:18] Diana: So here we have CSAM, child sexual abuse material that has been taken, by an adult.

[00:12:26] In a youth serving faith based organization that has now been sold and posted online. So now we have online sexual exploitation, in its very early stages of that online space. Once upon a time, these images were taken and shared as digital files, or printed files, and they were traded in a lot of ways, dare I say, and it kind of gives me, makes my hair on the back of my neck stand up to say it, but traded like baseball cards.

[00:13:00] Sandie: Yeah.

[00:13:01] Diana: Today, these things are flying across the internet, so quickly that it’s hard to believe that, how we can even get it back? How can we contain it? How many images are being, traded online? How many are uploaded daily? How many are uploaded yearly? How many reports go to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children to the cyber tip line every single year?

[00:13:28] Sandie: Oh, and the report that came out, a year ago showed a 300 percent increase in two years.

[00:13:35] Diana: Uh huh, and really so much of that increase was fueled initially by the pandemic, because everything was happening at online and no one was watching.

[00:13:45] Sandie: so when we’re talking about equipping faith leaders as part of our network, holding them to the same levels of accountability seems to be an important policy for a community to adhere to.

[00:14:02] Diana: Absolutely. You need to be holding them accountable in the same way that the policy should be the same. The procedures for hiring, volunteers, training, monitoring, and reporting.

[00:14:17] Sandie: Mm.

[00:14:19] Diana: There is an instinct in most communities, you see this in even the public schools that the institution kind of closes around.

[00:14:24] We’re going to do our own investigation and you go state by state. You can see what the rules and regulations are, but generally speaking, you’re not supposed to be doing your own internal investigation before you report out. That’s not a good practice. And in most cases, it’s It’s not the policy, it’s not the regulation, and it’s not the law.

[00:14:44] So we actually have to be thinking about how we adhere as we not only want to be part of policy makers and change makers, but actually we then have to follow those rules too. It’s not just good for them, it’s good for us. And we need to lead by our example.

[00:15:01] Sandie: Oh I like that.

[00:15:02] Diana: we want to make our, we need to make our houses of worship and our faith spaces the safest places.

[00:15:08] We have to do everything we can do so that every adult is empowered to protect a child.

[00:15:15] Sandie: So let’s, let’s move over to the other side of this equation and see some of the incredible opportunity for those youth facing faith based centers and works. Because what I’ve experienced when I talk to parents and our students here at Vanguard are live to free peer educators go into the public schools, but parents sometimes say, well, I don’t want my children to get all of that content. I want to do it at my church, at my synagogue, at my temple this is, this is going to be safer to assure that the content is what I as the parent prefer. So when we want to do community outreach with young people and faith based, how do we equip those faith based youth facing, centers?

[00:16:21] How do we actually help them use the best possible digital literacy training, teaching kids to resist grooming, all of those kinds of issues so that we can, we can break through the resistance of the parents on behalf of those children.

[00:16:43] Diana: I think when we talk about partnering, and it really is about partnership, it’s partnering with our faith based institutions. So if it’s going to the YMCA, it’s going to the local church, it’s going to, the faith based youth organization, we start by offering a training to their staff, executive level.

[00:17:04] Let’s get them trained. Let’s have them buy in to the work, the mission and the urgency, because this isn’t a problem that’s going to be a problem in 10 years from now. This is a problem that’s going to be with us for the next. I can’t tell you how many years and it’s only going to exponentially get worse.

[00:17:24] One image of a child is going to be shared hundreds of thousands of times over the course of infinite years.

[00:17:32] Sandie: Hmm.

[00:17:32] Diana: Taking down a photo off, off the internet is near impossible. So we want to get in front of that, right? We want to, we want to change the trajectory for these children. We want to make sure that no one’s grooming them and taking photos.

[00:17:46] And we certainly don’t want them self generating these materials either, which is an increasingly large problem. It just, the numbers are staggering. It’s up over 25 percent amongst, you know, boys in a small age bracket. This is Every year I’m reading, it’s only, it’s up by this much, it’s up by this much, it’s 20 percent here, it’s 50 percent there, it’s 100 percent there, the numbers never cease to amaze and terrify me at the same time.

[00:18:15] so we want to get ahead of that, we want to change the narrative. So offering programs at the executive level, getting faith leaders in particular, who are tremendous advocates on these, in these spaces. So if you have a rabbi, a minister, a priest, an imam, a sheikh, somebody of faith, who’s respected in the community, who’s willing to come with you in helping to open that door and then asking, once you do an initial training and say, we’d like to bring this training to your community.

[00:18:47] Whether it’s to the parents or the rest of the staff and volunteers or to the children directly that you offer to actually, once you’ve worked with the religious leader, whatever their title is, invite them to co teach with you.

[00:19:05] Sandie: Hmm.

[00:19:06] Diana: I often do this. I offer stewards of children, which is, developed by darkness to light.

[00:19:12] I was Charleston, South Carolina, and I’ve been training. I’ve been an authorized facilitator doing this since 2007. And I have trained hundreds of churches and synagogues and mosques. And for anyone who’s ever been resistant, the first thing I say is, come teach with me. I look at the minister, the priest, the imam, come co facilitate with me.

[00:19:34] I want you to help put the religious framework around this. This topic is hard. We need faith as part of this conversation. It’s what helps build resilience. So we need to have that to help bring us comfort in very uncomfortable conversations, and also helps to give us a moral pathway. So if I invite them to be part of the conversation, we work together to develop how we’re going to do this.

[00:20:02] And then we co facilitate. Then we create opportunity. Now, the parent is going to be comfortable who said, I’m not doing that in the public school setting, but my minister’s involved. Oh, okay. Now this is different. Now this speaks to my moral obligation. It speaks to my faith and my faith in action.

[00:20:23] So, I think that’s really where we, we really use our relationships to really build the matrix that we need that safety net under our kids.

[00:20:35] Sandie: I just feel like we’re done. That’s what we needed to communicate, but we’re going to keep going anyway, so this idea of having a trusted faith leader as part of the outreach and the training, the equipping and digital literacy, all of that. Can you give me some examples of how that’s been successful, how I might approach it right here.

[00:21:05] I, you know, it’s been a while since I’ve been had lunch with the local Imam. I did several years ago, but I know that those kids are often not part of the community trainings that are then restricted because of faith practices. I talked to the leaders in that community and they want their kids to have this kind of resilience training. And so it is, for me, this is a super important conversation, and I loved how you framed this as a moral pathway. Instead of becoming oppositional and saying, well, they don’t want this, or they are this, or I’m not, I want to find out how to do this better. So I’ve already taken a few notes. I’m going to intentionally look for ways to co facilitate. What could, parents do when you’re all in the same, maybe soccer team or whatever, and you see that there are kids who have not had digital literacy training to resist grooming? What are some steps along that pathway?

[00:22:28] Diana: Part of it starts with conversation, right? We need to be talking about it. We need to be talking about it all the time. When I talk to faith leaders in particular, I will tell them, you need to get up on the pulpit. I, I don’t care which day of the week you pray, you know, when, the day when your community is together is that’s the day you should be talking about these issues.

[00:22:49] Sandie: not in a separate classroom for just those people that are interested. Oh my gosh, that makes me crazy. No, okay,

[00:22:57] go ahead, call them to the front.

[00:22:59] Diana: call them to the front, but what I always remember, when I started my work almost 25 years ago, I, I remember I would get to a synagogue and they put on the billboard outside, like, Domestic Violence Shabbat. And I was the keynote speaker. So I was the, I was the, giving the sermon that night and it’s domestic violence Shabbat.

[00:23:20] There is no faster way to make sure nobody shows up to Shabbat

[00:23:22] Sandie: Ha, ha, ha, ha, oh

[00:23:25] Diana: So what I started to do back in the day was I focused on once a month, once a month was family Shabbat, family Shabbat was like kids and I would do a story and I would integrate some of these lessons into, Family Shabbat into the storytelling about what we do and what we don’t do, how we navigate difficult conversations, difficult places, and one of the interesting things is that children do a really great job, you know, interpersonal communication because that uh oh feeling,

[00:23:57] you know, kind of like perks up and it still works as adults like that uh oh feeling.

[00:24:01] It’s like, that person doesn’t make me feel comfortable, doesn’t make me feel safe. I’m going to go in this other direction, but we don’t get that feeling online. So that, it’s a, it’s a teaching kids how to do this. So if we could put it into storytelling, then we start to build a framework. But then at least once a month, the, the teachings of our sacred texts, our scriptures, whatever scripture text your faith uses, has stories about vulnerability

[00:24:32] Sandie: mm,

[00:24:33] Diana: and human frailty and things we’ve done really great and moments we really missed the mark.

[00:24:39] There’s stories about humanity. It’s about raising us up and challenging us to do better. So I would take those stories once a month and talk about, pick one, and talk, and frame that conversation in, you know, on that holy day to talk about the issues. People knew that I was going to be talking about issues one, you know, one Shabbat a month.

[00:25:03] That’s what I talked about. I had the most number of people coming to synagogue, and that’s what I did. And I challenge us to do that, that we need to pick the tough topics, and we need to talk about them, not once, not twice, but often, to the point that everybody at the supermarket, when they say, do you know somebody who you could talk to about X, Y, and Z, they go, oh, go talk to Rabbi Diana,

[00:25:26] Sandie: ah, that’s so good.

[00:25:27] Diana: right?

[00:25:28] They, they, it doesn’t matter if they’re from your community or not.

[00:25:32] Sandie: Okay, so you are inspiring me so much because I have been online. I’ve listened to at least 100 podcasts and I’m not exaggerating about the incredible value and absolute necessity of talking to your kids about technology regularly. One, one group at Screenagers, they have Tech Talk Tuesday and just so much of that, but from the, uh, let’s take a 30, 000 foot perspective and our faith families also need to talk tech and whether that’s Tuesday, Wednesday, Saturday, or Sunday, we have to normalize that it’s okay to talk tech and to talk about the risks for sexual exploitation. And that means modeling it, and I really believe that interfaith leaders are trusted thought leaders that can model that in their position of authority and influence.

[00:26:45] I don’t even know where else to go with that, but I just, if you, as a listener, are thinking, Oh, this is kind of a new way. I’m going to have to go talk to my rabbi, my mom, my pastor, my priest, go and have that conversation and start to crack through the tradition that doesn’t include that kind of conversation because our kids are important and we need to normalize the family coming together and talking about the risks.

[00:27:26] Diana: I couldn’t agree more. And I do remember back, if you can think back through the course of life, in your lifetime, in my lifetime, there was once upon a time we used to sit around the table and everybody would whisper the, about the things that we didn’t talk about in polite company. You know, somebody’s got cancer, there’s, somebody got a divorce, somebody has, there was domestic violence, there was child, all these things, it’s like we, we would whisper at the table because it was as if we said it out loud, something bad would happen.

[00:27:58] And over the decades. These things have been normalized, right? We, we talk about cancer, talking about cancer. My goodness, men are wearing mustaches in November. Women are out and wearing pink in October. Like we couldn’t be talking about it more. And it’s a community that rallies around and has changed the trajectory,

[00:28:19] right?

[00:28:19] The, how we treat. treat cancer, prevent cancer, how we work together as a community to support one another. divorce. Divorce was something everybody whispered about. Now 52%, I think it is, of Americans are divorced, right? And so talking about divorce has become very normalized in our communities.

[00:28:39] We started talking about child abuse. Child abuse became illegal in all 50 states. Domestic violence became illegal in all 50 states. All these things took time, and all of these things took time for us to normalize in conversation.

[00:28:56] Sandie: Hmm.

[00:28:57] Diana: Technology and its risks are the same. We need to start to normalize the conversation.

[00:29:04] That it’s not something that, oh, we have to talk about in the back room at the congregation when, when no one else is listening. Look, we’ve had policies in, that have been required of us for a really long time. Since the 80s and 90s, we all have liability insurance in our congregations and our youth serving organizations.

[00:29:22] They all mandate molestation insurance. Those require certain policies, protocols, and training. We now need to live up to those standards and we have to talk about it.

[00:29:34] Sandie: Hmm. Wow. Okay. How do people connect with you and which way should they connect? I’m looking at, Child Dignity Alliance, Partnerships, Hub for Children, UNHCR, GNRC. Tell us, how do we connect?

[00:29:54] Diana: The easiest way to find me, LinkedIn and of course, Instagram, I Instagram @RabbiDiana. So it’s not hard to figure out R A B B I D I A N A. I certainly work with my partners all over the globe. Uh, GNRC today is in over 80 countries and regions around the world. The Global Network of Religions for Children.

[00:30:17] We were just together in Abu Dhabi in November for our sixth global forum. and we had 52 teenagers from 30 countries. Who are participating and it was one of the most incredible fixed days with these young people that inspired and uplifted me to the point that I know we’re going to be okay because these young people, they held our adult feet to the fire.

[00:30:42] It was faith leaders from around the globe, senior, you know, religious leaders, government leaders, civil society partners. And they were like, but you’re not doing enough for us. And I was so blown away by their, by their challenge, by their spirit, by their energy, by their focus and by their candor.

[00:31:03] These children are not afraid to speak their mind.

[00:31:06] Now they were chosen to be there by, by their country, uh, committees. So obviously they were there with purpose. But they came prepared, and they really saw their role as not just the generation of the future, but the generation of now. We have to stop thinking about our children as just, oh, their future, their future, their future.

[00:31:30] No, no, no. It’s right now.

[00:31:32] Sandie: They’re walking on that road.

[00:31:34] Diana: They are on that road, and we want them to have a childhood.

[00:31:39] Sandie: Hmm.

[00:31:39] Diana: We want to safeguard that childhood. But to do that, we have to empower them and their parents. Their community around them because a child’s not necessarily going to tell you their own parent or their own teacher they may tell somebody else’s pastor when they’re sitting there at the end of services because they went to somebody’s you know, somebody’s whether it was confirmation or some other event all of a sudden they may disclose something that they may be discovered

[00:32:08] Sandie: Hmm.

[00:32:09] Diana: And so we have to be there for each other across faith.

[00:32:14] And that’s why I think this is so important is that faith leaders who learn together, grow together, we see each other as our partners. So if the Global Center for Women and Justice started with a advisory council of faith leaders and brought together all the faith leaders from all the different communities, then it’s an incredible opportunity.

[00:32:39] And I think that’s, that’s, that’s the pathway. I used to say that all the time. You know, local communities, they had a, they have the Crime Victims Board, they have this board, they have this organization, this district attorney’s office has a domestic violence thing, child abuse thing. Where are your faith leaders?

[00:32:56] They shouldn’t be in a separate room.

[00:32:57] Sandie: No, no, because they have incredible influence because they are trusted leaders.

[00:33:05] Diana, I can hardly wait for you to be out here in person for Ensure Justice. And I’m looking forward to some of those really great conversations in person. So thank you for being with me today.

[00:33:21] Diana: I cannot thank you enough for having me. This has always been my, one of my favorite conversations is any conversation with you,

[00:33:29] Sandie: Oh, and the same to you. For our listeners, we’re inviting you to take the next step and go over to endinghumantrafficking.org and find the resources Diana and I have been talking about. And if you haven’t visited our site before, take some time and become a subscriber to receive a newsletter with the show notes and whenever a new episode drops.

[00:33:54] And if you’re already a listener, write a review so other people can find us, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram and even Facebook. So I’ll see you back here in two weeks.

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Jeremy Davis joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss the role of schools in online safety and how educational leaders can foster digital resilience among students.

Guest: Jeremy DavisJeremy Davis is the Assistant Superintendent for Innovation and Instructional Support for the 12,000-student Fullerton School District in California. He also serves as the Vice President of the California Ed Tech Joint Powers Authority. Jeremy’s role includes overseeing technology, libraries, student data, cybersecurity, and IT networking across the district. His position on the cabinet allows him to lead cross-departmental efforts on online safety, integrating technology and educational support for a comprehensive approach to student well-being.

Key Points* Jeremy Davis emphasizes that online safety is not just a technology issue but a cross-departmental effort involving all school departments. * The importance of resilience in youth is highlighted as a critical factor in preventing online exploitation. Resilience is built through confidence, which is developed by knowledge and critical thinking skills. * Schools can integrate online safety education into existing curriculums, such as social-emotional learning (SEL) and digital citizenship programs, rather than adding additional burdens on teachers. * Jeremy shares how his district modified SEL lessons to include digital wellness components, making the content more relevant to online safety. * He discusses the role of parents in ensuring online safety at home, including using tools to control internet access and having open conversations with their children about digital behavior. * The district utilizes focus groups and surveys with students to measure the effectiveness of digital wellness programs and adjust lessons based on feedback. * Jeremy explains the concept of “trusted adults” on campus, encouraging students to reach out to staff members if they encounter online issues. * He advocates for proactive parent education through in-person classes, online videos, and social media campaigns to help parents stay informed about digital risks and resources. * The district has developed a comprehensive online safety page, offering guides, recommended software, and information for parents. * Jeremy stresses the importance of accountability in digital safety education, ensuring that programs are effective and continuously improved based on measurable outcomes. * Schools should collaborate with various stakeholders, including teachers, parents, and technology departments, to create a unified approach to online safety. * The key takeaway is that building resilience in students helps them confidently navigate the digital world and stand up to unhealthy online relationships and pressures.

Resources* School Library Standards – School Libraries (CA Dept of Education) * Jeremy Davis on LinkedIn

TranscriptSandie Morgan: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California.

This is episode number 339, The Role of Schools in Online Safety with Jeremy Davis. My name is Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is a show where we empower you to study the issues. Be a voice and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Jeremy Davis is the assistant superintendent for innovation and instructional support for the 12, 000 student Fullerton school district in California, and the vice president of the California Ed tech joint powers authority.

I am so glad to welcome you, Jeremy. I love your job description, innovation, and instructional support.

[00:01:00] Tell me what that means? What’s in your job description?

Jeremy Davis: You know what? I’m very blessed to work in Fullerton. and the, where the TKA is part of Fullerton. we’re one of the few districts in Orange County to actually have my role at the assistant superintendent level. So, I do run the technology department, but that includes educational technology. It also includes the libraries, all the student data, cybersecurity, all the devices, IT, networking, things like that. So in a lot of districts, it’s, it’s like a director of IT or, if you’re lucky, a chief technology officer, but then there’ve been a couple who’ve elevated it to cabinet. and I think it’s super important because of, of things like what we’re going to talk about today,

where I, I’m leading a cross departmental effort on online safety, because it really doesn’t just live in the tech department. It lives in all departments, so I, I’m very appreciative that my, my job includes all kinds of things that might not normally be considered I.T. but yeah, so that’s so director of our assistant super

[00:02:00] innovation puts me over over a lot of things, but also being on cabinet gives me the ability to, really work well within the other departments and sort of set some vision for the district.

Sandie Morgan: Wow. I love that. And I want to thank you again for being a speaker at last year’s Insure Justice Conference and agreeing to do it again this year. So we’re looking forward to that. Our last interview was with a survivor, Alia Azariah. During our conversation, we learned that Ventura’s district attorney’s office gave her an award for resilience. Tell me what your take is on resilience as an element of a youth being protected from online predators.

Jeremy Davis: sure. you know, it’s it’s so interesting how, how many of the children who fall pray, it’s the online predators.

[00:03:00] Are in need of attention, you know, are sort of seeking that attention somewhere and sadly they sometimes find it, online. the resilience piece is understanding how amazing they are as human beings.

and, you know, it’s, it, for me, it goes back, honestly, to faith a little bit for me too, but it’s helping these kids understand that they’re just great people and they don’t need this outside, piece online, but also helping them understand you have no idea who you’re talking to online.

You know, we’ve done a lot of work around the differences between an actual real life relationship and an online relationship and how to determine who you’re even talking to online and do you even know who they are.

Because the resiliency comes from standing up for themselves, from being able to say no. You know, we talk about, we even go into the sex ed curriculum, where there, where, or the drug curriculum. Because if the say no to drug curriculum works really well for say

[00:04:00] no to someone asking you for a nude photo. Right? So you know, if you have negotiation skills and you have the ability to say no, because you’re confident in yourself, that resiliency transfers to everything we do within digital literacy or with digital wellness or online safety. can you say no? If someone asks you, can you say no to pressure?

do you know if the person’s a peer? Like, maybe it’s not even peer pressure. Maybe it’s a, 60 year old trying to get you to this, pretending to be a 12 year old or a 10 year old. So, knowledge gives you power, but knowledge gives you confidence, and confidence breeds resilience, because having that confidence to say no or to say this doesn’t seem right.

We also do a lot of work around trusted adults. and who are your trusted adults on campus, who are your counselors, who are your mental health people, but even who’s your custodian. You know, we have, we have, we have one of our lessons where there’s a slide of every single trusted adult on your campus that if something wrong happens to you and you’re embarrassed, you can go to any of these people and talk to them.

[00:05:00] Or you can go to NECMEC, National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, and talk to them if you’re not comfortable with anyone on campus. Like we, we try and build up a confidence of it’s okay to say no. And then who can I talk to if I’m concerned about something? So resilience, I think, comes from confidence, and confidence is what we try to breed through knowledge. So it’s sort of that constant drumbeat throughout the year of, of this being taught over and over and over.

Sandie Morgan: Wow. Okay. So, so many things are buzzing in my head, but I’m going to try to stick to this 30 minute podcast. We’ll have to have you back. So you are unique. You’re a unicorn. Actually, I looked for other people like you, and I didn’t find your job title like everywhere. So how have you been? Can we help people outside of Fullerton and Orange County

[00:06:00] and other schools that are facing these challenges?What do they need to be able to develop digital resilience and as educators more effectively address these issues?

Jeremy Davis: I think every district has the ability to do this. I mean, my, my job title is relatively unique. there’s a handful of us around, even around the state. There aren’t that many of us at this level. However, Someone can always pick up the mantle of this, whether it’s ed services working in conjunction with their I.T. department, because, there’s so many roles here when I when I brought this group together to sort of say, Hey, you know, we’ve been doing it pretty well for a number of years, but we’re going to now crank it up to 11. Um, you know, we’re going to go even even further. when we, we had a new board goal, and I’m like, this is great.

We have a board goal focused on this. So now we can pour even more resources into it, more focus. But really. Anybody who, your ed services department can get together with I.T and can get together with human resources or with, [00:07:00] you know, if you have someone in charge. So there’s always someone in charge of social emotional learning somewhere on your campus or district office.

So you have sort of your key players who’s in charge of the digital citizenship aspect, right? Of, of, that sort of online piece who’s in charge of the sex ed piece because we can tie these together. Who’s in charge of social emotional learning. Great. California, healthy kids, like that kind of piece should play a role here.

Who’s in charge of the actual curriculum because you want to see, okay, where, where does this fit into the curriculum? and even honestly, teachers unions get involved because it’s like, Hey, I don’t want to put too much more on your plate, but this is super important for keeping our kids safe and for some of your classroom behaviors.

You know, where does this fit in? So it’s not just one more thing, but it’s more integrated into the curriculum. So really anybody can lead this, this, this role. It’s just in this case, here in Fullerton, it, it fell on my plate, which is great because I, I’m a big advocate for a lot of these pieces.

[00:08:00] I think information literacy is a huge part of what we do, and it’s very important for the kids, too. And, and I was lucky enough to, to help. Not be, I want to say an author though, that’s taking too much credit, but I got to help with a California state model library standards when those were written about 12 years ago. And the literacy part was that, yeah, I don’t know if you’ve seen those standards that came out right,

Sandie Morgan: the library has literacy standards for? oh, that’s great.

Jeremy Davis: Yeah. Every library in America and every school library is supposed to be following these state model library standards. and they’re almost all based on information literacy, which is a huge part of digital wellness. It’s understanding what’s like misinformation. What is not misinformation?

What is, when do you see bias in news online? Like all that is covered, that, that’s all in the, in the state model library standards. But again, they came out right before common core. So they were a little blip because there was a bunch of news that was about to happen on them. And then, Hey, common core and the model library standards didn’t get a lot of play, which is too bad because they’re really amazing.

Sandie Morgan: [00:09:00] I’m, I’m going to be looking that up and I’m sure there’s a link and we will put it in the show notes. That’s great. so that makes me think about being very proactive in my strategies. And I really hear you when you’re talking about we do not want to put something else on a teacher’s plate. And my thing is, instead of adding something, how do we? introduce some of the, introduce some of the skills to existing content that must be teached. It’s in core. And one of the conversations I had probably a decade ago was about what would this look like in a social studies class because you’re talking about equipping students with critical thinking skills.

And to your point, when they have more confidence, they’re more resilient.

[00:10:00] So let’s like imagine, uh, typical social studies class, where would you introduce this scenario as just a part of maybe changing some illustrations? I don’t know. What do you think?

Jeremy Davis: So, I think there’s a number of ways just to backtrack a second. A lot of what we did was we already had, you know, you have to teach these three digital citizenship in the beginning of the year.

We already had that in place going over to the, to the SEL group, the social emotional learning group. They said, Hey, we have this program purchased where the teachers are doing 21 lessons a year, a little bit at a time throughout the entire year. I said, can I can I change some of those lessons?

can we can I look at your whole curriculum and can I make them more digital? Like, like, if you have a lesson on here’s when we changed, it was, the, the, the final performance task was basically, make a chart of like healthy relationships in real life. And so, you know, like I said before, we turned it

[00:11:00] into, you’re now going to do a Venn diagram On how do you know a real life relationship is healthy?

How do you know an online relationship is healthy? How are they different? How are they the same? Right, so we took a lesson that was already being taught manipulated it a little bit to give it that online flair and give more knowledge to the students to make it a digital wellness lesson, not just an SEL lesson.

So that’s how we did it across the district was we, we changed the performance tasks on the SEL curriculum. But looking at like a social studies class, the way I would do it in this case, it wouldn’t so much be A resilience piece. This would be more an information literacy piece, as a social studies teacher, I would be pulling multiple articles about the same topic and I’d have the kids identifying bias. So I’d be saying, okay, we’re going to take a highlighter, you know, yellow is for adjectives because why are there adjectives? Like, honestly, any adjective is a potential spot for bias, any adverbs.

[00:12:00]But let’s look at our describing words. Let’s see if they’re describing a person. Okay. Or describing a decision, instead of just saying, this decision was made by the president, this, this, um, impactful decision, okay, that, that, is that a bias word or is that just an amplifying word? This horrible decision, oh, gosh, well, maybe we got our news from the right or from the left.

So if I had three articles, all about a similar topic, but I could have the kids pick out the bias and then have them go find a good, a good, source. Okay, you find out more about this, but I want you to show me the bias. So, for me, that gives the kids confidence and the knowledge that just because they see something on their phone on a news site doesn’t mean it’s valid.

You know, there, there are lots of news sites that have tons of bias in them. So why not show the students, you have to know, you have to be able to find it multiple places. You should, you should actually look at news

[00:13:00] from the right and from the left, because the, well, where’s the truth? You know, if you just get, and even teaching them confirmation bias, and how when they go searching for something online, that the algorithms actually push them farther towards the extremes very quickly. So if you go looking for a news article, some of those clicks will push you farther and farther away from the middle and towards an extreme based just on your searching, whether it’s YouTube or anything. you know, you go searching for the first amendment and suddenly you’re, you’re in some extremist website or you go searching for something else and you’re way over on Antifa.

It’s like, how did I get here in three clicks? The algorithms try and push you. One way or the other, so teaching the kids that helps them understand and be more confident in their own knowledge.

Sandie Morgan: Um,so you’re making me think about, I’ve started going to the gym this year and I’m being pretty faithful to it, but I am, I am strengthening muscles that have [00:14:00] not been used a lot. And then when I find myself. self in a situation, those muscles are much more responsive. So even though this content about bias and confirmation bias is not directly related to an online predator, when that online predator shows up and starts grooming and uses adjectives that Oh, that’s, that could be misconstrued. this kid is going to push back on that and be what we want more resilient to that. Okay. I. I am a pediatric nurse. First foremost, it’s been part of my life for decades. And I still remember when I would discharge a baby with pneumonia. I looked at the family situation. Where are you living? Is the child getting everything they need, the medication? I mean, they were in the [00:15:00] hospital with pneumonia, but I’m sending them home. So, the bell rings and you send these kids home. What is the partnership? between the schools and the parents and community and caregivers that is going to assure a stronger resistance to digital risks.

Jeremy Davis: You know, um, we do a lot with, parent classes, whenever we can. Sadly, they, we don’t always get the greatest attendance. but like recently we did a, a parent university, for, one of our Title I schools, where we had a number of parents come way back. We’re doing five of them right now at five different schools.

but I came in. to that class for an hour and talk to them about digital wellness at home. you know, told them, look, my devices in their homes aren’t the problem because my devices are filtered no matter where you go. So every child in our district has an [00:16:00] iPad. Third grade and up go home. So when they’re at home with my iPad, number one, parents can control them at home.

So we show parents how they can take control of the iPad. They can turn it off at 8 o’clock. They can lock it so it’s just on like Sora, so they can only read books. They can feel more comfortable if it’s out of sight. you know, we do that kind of work. But I also talked to them about how. Really the problem is unfiltered internet at home and student and like a phone if they’ve given their their students a phone or their own device and they’re letting them be in their bedrooms with it or have it overnight.

So we try and do that education, but we’ve also Turn that education into a video, online, and we’re translating it using some AI. It’s really crazy. It’s my voice and my lips move and I’m speaking Korean. It’s crazy. It’s really cool. So we’re about to launch that. We made sure our translators looked at it to say, yeah, this, this is fine.

but really cool. But, but that way any PTA group could take my. My [00:17:00] presentation that’s normally an hour. It’s we sort of turned into about half an hour because there’s no, no Q and a, but Anybody, any PTA could use it and just send it home and say, Hey, please watch this at some point. So it’s not, you know, if we did it on a five o’clock on a Monday and that’s during soccer.

And we only had five parents come, the rest of them could watch it and still get the same information. we also try and send letters home during the beginning of the year. Um,when our teachers are doing very specific topics on digital safety, there are letters that go home to the parents saying, Hey, this is what we talked about there.

Here’s where you can go on common sense media and get more information. And here are some questions you could talk with your kids about. you know, and I don’t actually know how many parents do,follow up with that at home, but I know we try and get that information out. So the parents know, Hey, this is fresh in your kid’s mind.

If you want to have a discussion.

Sandie Morgan: Okay, so here’s the question. I’m thinking back with my own kids and I would be the [00:18:00] person in the room at the half hour mark with my hand raised and I’ve got more questions. I think I don’t feel confident in responding to this. I’m, they’re better at this than I am. So as a parent, I’m actually a little vulnerable to being told by my own kids that, oh, no, no, that’s not right.

And they take the device away from me. And then, Now that I’ve studied this, it’s like kids can manipulate their parents. And so who do parents go to? Who is, who is their trusted advisor? obviously, I’m not going to give out your cell phone number so everybody can call Jeremy. Although that would make a great hashtag, call Jeremy. where do they go when they don’t feel confident because I think creating a community around our kids that has more resilience and you identified confidence [00:19:00] in this. I think parents are not confident.

Jeremy Davis: I agree. Um, you know, it’s one of the first things I talk about when I’m doing these parent meetings is, hey, whose phone is it, because I talk about, if at 9 o’clock at night, you’ve put the phone in your room and the child now has their phone at 9 o’clock at night. That tells me your lock is broken on your door or your safe isn’t working anymore because, it’s not the child’s phone.

I don’t care if the child, even if the child has a job and pays for the phone, if unless they’re paying for their mortgage out of the house and they’re paying for their insurance and their clothes and their food and their car. Then, no, it’s your phone. And, and so I even have parents, I even say it like three times during my presentation.

Whose phone is it? My phone. Yes, it’s your phone. You’re the parent. It’s your phone. Take it away. turn it off. Call Verizon. That, that phone’s off now. and, and that’s the thing. There, I, I always tell people YouTube is amazing. [00:20:00] It has some stuff on it we don’t love. But at the same time, it’s also the most educational website in the world, right?

So if you want to learn How to deny your child’s phone Wi Fi at home. You go on YouTube and say, How do I turn off the Wi Fi just to one phone? Because you can go onto your home internet, and you can turn it off just for that phone, and say, Nope, you don’t get internet anymore. So, there are a lot of these things you can do, where you go to YouTube and ask the questions, but a lot of what I do, and that you don’t just go print a contract online.

There’s a ton of them, but maybe you get three or four of them. You read through them as a parent, and then you sit down with your child and you say, Hey, before you get this phone, or if they already have a phone, you say, Hey, give me your phone for a minute. You take it back and you say, okay, now, before you continue using this phone, we need to talk about some things.

We need to talk about your behaviors. When you talk about social media, if you’re going to be allowed to have Things like if you’re going to be on social media, number one, I will be your, your friend, you know, and, and the moment I find out you have a [00:21:00] second social media account, the phone’s gone for a month or whatever it is, but, but you work with the kids on this.

If you make a fake social media account and I’m not a part of it, what will the punishment be? And you help the child helps you come up with these punishments. Right? And tweens and teens are different. But, but if you come up with the, with, with the punishment, really consequence, there’s cause and effect here in the world.

So when the child, when you say, Hey, give me your phone, I want to look at your search history and it’s blank and your contract says, if they ever delete their history, they lose their phone for a week. Then you can show them the contract and say, Oh, you did number two. So what’s the consequence? Oh, I lose my phone for the week.

Yeah, gosh, you really made a bad decision, but remember, we decided together as a family, here’s your signature right here on the bottom of it, that if you do number two, if you delete your search history, or you delete your texts, or you delete your emails, then you lose your phone for a week. First offense.

So this is first offense. So I guess we have to go by the [00:22:00] contract. And that’s where the parent has to have the confidence. Because if the parent bends and says, Oh, but you know, um, I need to pick you up from school tomorrow. So, no, you have to have that phone. So, I guess you’ll just lose it for a couple hours tonight.

No, no, no. You figure out how to pick up the kid. Look, you figure out how to deal with not having a phone for a week. Even if it, even if it causes you some kind of problem too. You know, or you go and buy one of these safe phones where it’s just a flip phone. And say, here you go. You can have a backup phone.

We bought it for five bucks and we paid for a hundred minutes. We’re only going to use about three minutes this week, but you get a flip phone. It doesn’t even text. Good luck.

Sandie Morgan: my gosh. You’re tough. You’re, that’s tough parenting,

but it does take confidence,

to be able to do that. A few episodes ago, we interviewed Dr. Delaney Rustin, who, started the Screenagers response. Just fascinating. And she talks about contracts. So go back and listen to [00:23:00] that if this is new conversation for you.

Jeremy. Jeremy. I’m, I’m really concerned about kids who really are more tech savvy than their parents. And this is, this is, this is an area where I think schools can help us by giving out little maybe, here’s some once a month tips. that are constantly reminding parents that their kids are figuring and it’s part of their job.

Once you hit adolescence, your job is to become an independent adult. So you’re not disobeying just because, Oh, I want to disobey and disrespect my parents, but I’m supposed to be learning. It’s my developmental goal, how to be a healthy. independent adult. So they are [00:24:00] constantly working around and on YouTube, you can search and find some ways to work around.

Like a kid whose parents said, no, you can’t have Snapchat, deleted it, and then found a way to go and secretly downloaded again. And so I’m looking on YouTube and I find out, I can find as the parent where the downloads are happening and go and look and see what my kid downloaded. This is a learning Experience, I started to say opportunity, I need some coaching from the school.

And if I were a parent in the, your district, I think that kind of communication beyond events, is is what we’re looking for. It’s like, I need a trusted advisor, just like the kids need a trusted adult.

Jeremy Davis: [00:25:00] Sure. we do social media campaigns as well. pretty consistently around digital wellness. It’ll be things like, Hey, parents, do you know about thorn? And have you subscribed to their blog? Hey, parents, do you know about the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children? You need to subscribe to their blog.

It’s great. Hey, parents, do you know about screenagers? Are you getting their tech talk Tuesday? Emails to have conversations with your kids, right? So we’ll broadcast that out across our Instagram, our Facebook, our Twitter, pretty regularly. And then our schools will pick it up and amplify those as well.

And then part of what I do when I do my talks at the schools, but also what we’ve put online are a lot of guides for parents on potential contracts on some different software that they can download. And that’s all on our internet safety page, which we’re constantly pushing out as well that on the parent side on the parent page.

mainly because one of the, one of the talks I do have with, with when I do my talk is. Hey, you probably need some kind of software on [00:26:00] your phones, depending on your level of trust with your kids, because number one, it’s all about building relationships with your students, with your child. So if you have a great relationship, you have trust, and you can talk to them, then you might not need the software until a certain time.

I always use my kids as examples when I’m doing my talks. One of my kids, is 16 and has never needed the software. I’ve never once put tracking software on a device. One of my children, on the other hand, at about, about 16, also had a significant issue where suddenly I felt the need to put tracking software on every device that, that, you know, that they were connected to.

So we had our consequences. They lost their phone. They lost their gaming computer. They also lost the door to their bedroom. So

Sandie Morgan: Ha! Ha!

Jeremy Davis: okay. We’re gonna be, uh, you know, we know there was a behavior, there’s a consequence to that behavior. You made a bad choice. And just like in life, when you make bad choices, things happen.

and then we put some software on. And so there is software you can get. I always tell the parents, do not put it on [00:27:00] without talking to the kid. do not just put this tracking and spring on. Hey, I’ve been tracking you for three months. Look at all you downloaded snapchat No, you tell them my device my phone my plan I’m putting software on there because you’ve made this decision or that decision And again, everybody gets a parent their own way.

You could start off the first moment you give them a phone and have it being tracked. There’s some really cool software out there. We as a district don’t say, go buy this software. But we instead show people how to search and how to find multiple software. Because some are better for Android, some are better for iPhone, some are better for Xbox 360, some are better for a PC.

So. Maybe you need to track a phone, a gaming PC, and an Xbox 360. So there’s software that’s good for those three devices, whereas a parent, you’re getting alerts. If they’re, if they’re downloading, you’re getting alerts. If they search for certain keywords, that might be,linked to sexuality or whatever it is.

So you can get these alerts and you can sit and have a conversation with your, with your [00:28:00] kiddos around that. But,

and you’re right, the kids will hack them all.

The kids will figure out ways to do some things, but not all.

Sandie Morgan: but we, we still do our best as parents.

Okay. Last question. What about schools? What lessons have you learned that other schools could learn from? Like give me three tips before we sign off.

Jeremy Davis: Number one is it’s everybody’s job. It’s not, I mean, it’s not the IT’s department job to do digital wellness. That’s not, that’s not. It’s everybody’s job. And, and, and when you see how it all really fits together in my presentation, I have it all mapped out where you see digital wellness and you see the castle, the California SEL standards, and you see like the health standards and how they all really, really work together really well.

This is a whole district effort, to move forward. So that’s number one. Number two, I think getting parents involved as much as you can, but if they’re not coming. Do you reach them other ways? Like we talked about, like with social media or making videos and pushing them out and then translating those videos and [00:29:00] getting those out.

but also talking to the students. I did, uh, focus groups with kids around our digital wellness lessons and had them tell me what they liked and didn’t like what they were learning and didn’t learn. And now we survey our kids every single year, twice a year, and the survey points they don’t do well on become our next set of lessons.

So it’s like, okay, they didn’t, they didn’t understand that, even though we’ve taught it to them a bunch of times, I only have 50 percent of kids who think this, therefore I need to get that up to 80. So I need to make a new lesson. And now we’re going to readapt our videos and change and add that lesson in, resurvey at the end of the year and see if their knowledge has grown.

So some kind of measure, you know, cause a lot of times it’s just throw out digital safety lessons. No idea if they worked or not, but you should have some kind of accountability, some kind of measure Before you start teaching after you’ve taught at the end of the year Where are we and then how do you adjust and move forward?

You don’t just keep teaching the same thing.

Sandie Morgan: Wow. Jeremy Davis. I will invite you back, we’ll have more conversations. [00:30:00] We can keep our kids safe, but we also must build resilience. So my key takeaway today is that we’re going to have more confident kids who can say no to unhealthy relationships and to things they see online. So I thank you so much, Jeremy.

Jeremy Davis: You’re welcome. Thank

you

Sandie Morgan: listeners, we’re inviting you to take the next step and go over to ending human trafficking. org to find the resources we’ve mentioned today and so much more. And if you haven’t visited our site before, take time and become a subscriber to receive a newsletter with the show notes when a new Episode drops. And if you’re already a listener, write a review to help others find us and follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram. We want to stay [00:31:00] connected together. We will build confidence and resilience in keeping our community safe online. I’ll see you in two weeks.

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Alia Azariah joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss her journey from being an online victim of trafficking to becoming an advocate for youth and aftercare.

Alia AzariahAlia Azariah is a passionate advocate and survivor dedicated to ending human trafficking and empowering those affected by this grave violation of human rights. Her focus lies in creating safe and sustainable communities through education and advocacy, service provision, and social justice. With a combination of professional knowledge, personal experience, and compassion, she works diligently at both local and national levels to create lasting change in the lives of trafficking survivors through specialized training and safe housing initiatives.

Key Points* Alia shares her personal experience of being groomed and trafficked through social media, emphasizing how vulnerabilities prior to being online contributed to her exploitation. * She describes how traffickers use psychological tactics, such as fulfilling unmet emotional needs, to build trust and manipulate victims. * The lack of awareness about the dangers of social media during the early days of platforms like MySpace contributed to the ease of exploitation. * Alia explains how Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs helps in understanding vulnerability beyond just economic hardship, showing how traffickers exploit various unmet needs. * Traffickers deliberately create or exploit a sense of dependence, offering victims what seems like support or love to gain control. * She discusses the importance of community and long-term support in a survivor’s healing journey, highlighting that recovery requires more than just therapy or shelter. * Alia emphasizes the need for survivor inclusion in leadership roles, pushing for organizations to provide survivors with professional development opportunities rather than limiting them to direct care roles. * She challenges organizations to evaluate their approach to survivor leadership, advocating for hiring based on character and potential rather than just experience. * The conversation highlights the gaps in services for minors exiting trafficking, emphasizing the critical need for effective emergency stabilization solutions in the first six months post-exploitation. * Alia advocates for policy changes at local, state, and national levels to improve services for trafficking survivors, particularly minors. * As a mother, she applies her knowledge by implementing strict social media guidelines for her children and having ongoing discussions about online safety. * She will be participating in the Insure Justice conference, where discussions on improving survivor resources and policy will continue.

Resources* Alia Azariah on LinkedIn * Safe House Project

Transcript[00:00:00] Sandie: Welcome to the ending human trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode number 338 survivor alia Azariah, from online victim to serving youth and aftercare. My name is Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice and make a difference in ending human trafficking.

[00:00:35] Alia Azariah is a passionate advocate and survivor dedicated to ending human trafficking and empowering those affected by this grave violation of human rights.

[00:00:49] Her focus lies in creating safe and sustainable communities through education, advocacy, service provision, and social justice with a combination of professional knowledge, personal experience, and compassion. She works diligently at both local and national levels to create lasting change in the lives of trafficking survivors through specialized training and safe housing initiatives.

[00:01:22] Alia, it is such a delight to have you on the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. And as I was reading your bio, it sounded like you’ve been part of Global Center for Women and Justice for years. use a lot of the same language that we do in our work against human trafficking. So welcome to the show.

[00:01:47] Alia: Thank you.

[00:01:48] Sandie: So let’s start out withy experience go back a few years

[00:01:56] to when you were a young person and you were online on MySpace and tell us about that part of your story.

[00:02:09] Alia: Yeah, so I was vulnerable before I ever got on the computer, right? And so that’s important because I was already, like, experiencing a lot of bullying at school. I was already, lacking family support. I was involved in a group of students at school who were very young and yet making really scary choices already.

[00:02:31] And this was about 6th grade, and so I had a lot of vulnerabilities before I ever got to social media, and so when you mixed those things together, it was really a prime, situation for exploitation and for meeting people who were looking to fill a need, and I was going to social media Hoping to get a need met, right?

[00:02:52] So my, my goal for social media wasn’t to talk to the friends that I already had, wasn’t to communicate with family. My goal entering social media was to fulfill my needs of, one, having people who cared about me. I already had like mixed messages in my mind about how people were supposed to care about you.

[00:03:14] So that was really, really priming me for exploitation. So I was already, even outside of social media, looking for my needs to be met by adult men, believing that that was like how I could best get those needs met. And so social media seemed like a more streamlined version to a way of having those needs met.

[00:03:35] And then I was looking for people to, to, buy me new shoes and, and things that, most teens want, right, but are getting from their parents or the people that take care of them, usually. and so, this was also just a dangerous time, as it is even now, but in a different way with social media, in that at least now we know what the dangers are.

[00:03:55] And we have things to prevent some of those dangers. When MySpace launched, nobody knew what social media could present. Nobody knew or thought of what the dangers were because it was brand new. Right. And so these weren’t conversations we were having in schools or with parents or things like that.

[00:04:14] And so, nobody even really knew to know if I had a social, a social media page. nobody was wondering if I had a MySpace and, creating rules and boundaries around what that looked like. And so when I created a MySpace, I was going on there. To connect with people that I didn’t know, because I thought that that would, that would fill my needs.

[00:04:34] and in many ways, I think the hard thing is like it did. It fulfilled them in ways that were really unhealthy and really unsafe and led me to being trafficked. But that was the kind of the tool that my trafficker used was the fact that he was able to fulfill those needs for somebody who cared about me.

[00:04:50] He was able to say those things to me that he needed, to. And so I was already meeting up with people via MySpace when I met my trafficker. I was running away outside of social media. And I would find myself in situations that were really, really scary. When I would run away, when I would just meet people on the street.

[00:05:11] and so I, I was using, you know, now I look back and go like, look at my little 12, 13 year old self. doing harm reduction in my own life, you know, and, and I felt like, okay, if I meet people on social media, at least I know who I’m meeting with. And I can kind of like, maybe get a vibe from them was what I was trying to do.

[00:05:32] It was actually trying to keep myself safe and, but of course, safety is really skewed when you’ve grown up in a vulnerable home and things. So, I was meeting people on social media, and I would run away, and at least I would have a place to stay, and I would have, like, a roof over my head when I would run away, and then I would come back home, and, you know, a couple weeks later, I would do it again.

[00:05:53] and, one time, this one time, I was communicating with somebody over social media that I was planning on running away with, and it, I didn’t know this. You know, we didn’t talk about trafficking. This was probably like 2004. and I was communicating with him over social media and the person on the other side of the computer was someone who had a history of trafficking girls.

[00:06:17] He’d been doing this. He was 28 at the time that I was messaging him. I think he had started trafficking girls when he was like 17. and so he’d been doing this for, a decade. And, what he struck me as different than the other people that I had been really being exploited by as well, but not in this like third party trafficker kind of way.

[00:06:40] he struck me as different because his goal was not to meet with me that day. Whereas everyone else that I had been, like, it was like very clearly, I know what their goal is. I’m just trying to find a place to stay. that was my goal. They had their goal. He showed me that his goal was to get to know me.

[00:06:59] His goal was to find out like who I was and to tell me that he cared about me and to talk to me. And that was like the most enticing thing. And the thing that I didn’t, I didn’t have a dad. I didn’t have real men in my life who were taking care of me and were showing interest in me. And so. It instantly, even over social media, created a, like an extreme bond that his goal was not to get me to meet up that day.

[00:07:30] His goal was to love me. And even when we did end up meeting up maybe a week or so after communicating online, he, we just sat in his truck at the end of my street. He did not sleep with me. He did not get me high. He just sat there with me and told me that I should probably go back inside. And so we sat there until like late in the morning and then he had me go back inside.

[00:07:54] And so he was building this trust and this, belief that like he was so different from all of these other experiences that I had and that, his goal was not just to like fill my need and get out and his goal was to take care of me. And so that was like how he was using this like grooming process.

[00:08:15] that was the message that he was, he was, giving me in this grooming process over social media and over our interactions was that he wanted to take care of me and that he was going to be there for me. which was much more powerful. That was an extremely powerful belief to embed in my mind that he wanted to take care of me and make me feel safe, because that was something that, that was a need I didn’t, that was a very significant need that was empty and not being felt in my life.

[00:08:49] Sandie: So I love the fact that you can go back and look at your younger self and teach us about that vulnerability from the young person’s perspective. It’s like Monday morning quarterbacking from your chair. And so I’m really interested in how you as now a professional apply Maslow’s hierarchy to what happened.

[00:09:17] Alia: Yeah, I, I love Maslow’s hierarchy because I think what I see and what I’m sure you see and everyone sees is like, of course, There is a significant portion of people who’ve been trafficked that have all of the same vulnerability, right? There’s a lot that have the same vulnerabilities. But we also run across, I mean, I’ve run across women who had master’s degrees before they were ever exploited, or, you know, doctorates even, or came from families that were really, really supportive.

[00:09:49] And I think Maslow’s hierarchy helps us understand how they were exploited also instead of kind of grouping everybody together into, well, you had to have been sexually abused when you were younger and you experienced poverty and you were within the foster system because it broadens our idea of what a vulnerable person is.

[00:10:10] And so if we look at Maslow’s hierarchy, right, like, Of course, the people who have that bottom level of physiological, physical needs, of course, those people who don’t have that met are going to be significantly vulnerable, but it allows us to broaden like the, the, these people who are just searching for truth, and searching for purpose, and searching for belonging, and searching to the, for, the best version of who they can be.

[00:10:36] They’re vulnerable, too, if they’re met with the right trafficker who knows how to exploit that thing and how to, like, come in and say, like, I’m gonna, you know, I have girls who it’s been like, I’m gonna make you a star, right? that’s not That’s not this bottom. They had food. They had house. They had this, but they wanted, they were searching for something more.

[00:10:55] And if you have a trafficker who promises whatever need it is, you’re vulnerable. and so I think it helps us like broaden that. And like, there is a book, there’s a few books out there that, I’ve been able to get my hands on that are written by pimps or traffickers. And if you’re interested, make sure you buy it used or look at it used.

[00:11:14] Don’t buy it new. They get the royalties. Little disclaimer in there, but they have pictures of Maslow’s Hierarchy in them, or they have elements of Maslow’s Hierarchy in them, or they’ll even talk about like, there’s one, I think it was Pimpology, I can’t remember which book it was, but there was one of the books that was like, It says like, if you can’t find a need, make one.

[00:11:36] if you can’t find, like a, a, a place of insignificance in their life, create it. And then fill. So, I, I, the thing I think, though, is that’s so great about Maslow’s Hierarchy is it allows us to understand some of those things that we’re like, wait, but this person didn’t grow up vulnerable. How could a trafficker get in there and, and can, fill a need if they had a house and they had a supportive family because it broadens those things that create need.

[00:12:03] Sandie: Absolutely. And sometimes, the vulnerability is having dreams.

[00:12:08] Alia: Totally.

[00:12:09] Sandie: Yes. Oh my gosh. Okay. So, you have come a long way from my space. And in fact, I am so impressed that you received the prestigious resiliency award from Ventura County District Attorney’s Office. Shout out to Ventura. County for that recognition and applause for you.

[00:12:33] I want to know, how your personal journey shaped that, how it shaped your approach to working with survivors and mentorship that led to you to being recognized for resiliency. That’s like more than just, I’m okay. It means. I’ve bounced back,

[00:12:59] Alia: Right? I think, for me, my trafficking went on for so long, you know, I was in, in, you know, of course with breaks and trying to get out, things like that, but my first experience of being exploited was in, 2003 or 2004. And my last experience was in the beginning of 2018, and so I had trafficking experiences all throughout that time.

[00:13:22] And, I learned so much in that. I learned how difficult it is to leave. I learned, a lot about what other people had gone through, because of course you’re not usually trapped. Some people are, but my experience wasn’t that I was trafficked in like a silo where I was the only person being trafficked that I met.

[00:13:40] and so I learned a lot about other people that were being exploited. and I had multiple traffickers, and so I learned a lot about different types of exploitation and how it can look different based on, the type of exploiter that you’re with. and I made a lot of either like made a lot of decisions out of my own trauma and my own like attempt to survival or were forced into a lot of positions that caused a lot of damage, by the time that I was able to exit.

[00:14:06] And so when I go into working with other survivors, I think it gave me like a really a breath of kind of experience and understanding to be able to like hold space for people and understand that our journeys, just, look, our journeys are not clean, and I had to do, because of the way, and not that all survivors don’t need to do a lot of work to, find healing, we do, but I think, the longer you’re in the life and the longer that’s your normal, maybe the more of the worldview you have to break down, to reintegrate successfully, and so I had to do a lot of, not just, like, rewriting trauma responses, but a lot of, creating an entire new worldview, in order to do well in life.

[00:14:56] and so, because I’ve done that, when I work with a survivor, it’s, easier for me to understand where they’re coming from and to not ever have this feeling of like, well, they’re too far, or that’s too messy, or that’s too hard and I’m, I’m really grateful that I’m able to articulate, I, like, I, found a lot of healing from like understanding why my brain kept sabotaging me.

[00:15:24] and so I did a lot of work when I was healing in trying to understand if I don’t want to go back to the life and I don’t want this to keep happening why do I want this? Why do I want to go back to the life today? If that’s not what I want, why do I want to do it today? and so, that’s like one of the biggest things that I encounter with survivors, is they’re like, Today I want to go back, so that means I need to go back, or that means nothing mattered.

[00:15:47] And really being able to articulate like the, you know, neuro, pathways and things, and being able to like give them freedom in that way. But, I think it’s really helped me, like, hold space for the process, and, come back time and time again and know that, like, I think the biggest thing for me is, like, I got better and I got out and I found healing through community.

[00:16:09] if I didn’t have a village of people that assisted me in my exit and in my recovery for multiple years after, and even now. I wouldn’t have gotten better. It wouldn’t have been therapy alone or programming alone. Like, I needed so many people to just be with and just spend time with, that that’s something that I’m like grateful I get to be a part of the community for others and kind of help build that and broaden that message.

[00:16:42] Sandie: so let me drill down just a little bit on the, the theme of you did the work, you did the work. And as I’ve become friends and part of someone’s village, this sense of personal responsibility in your healing is something that I don’t always see acknowledged in the The programs that come alongside and want to, serve well intentioned, but making it too easy, maybe, I’m not sure what that means, but I, I just, I, I hear successful survivors who say, I did this, I made this happen.

[00:17:33] And that is a commitment. That is a key element of resiliency. So I want to talk about how as a survivor leader working within existing systems, how do you address those wonderful allies who are trying to do it all for you? maybe any other observations.

[00:17:57] Alia: yeah, I think I have been so spoiled in the field, honestly, in that my first position is still my main position and they’re gonna have to kick me out the door, kicking, like, kicking and screaming to get rid of me, because my first experience in the field was with allies, our CEO and COO, who put me in a position that honestly, like looking at my resume, I had no business being in and said, we’re going to teach you, we’re going to teach you how to do this job.

[00:18:30] And we’re going to teach you to do it well. And right now, all you have is your own lived experience and, and almost a degree didn’t even have a degree yet. but we believe you can do it. And so we’re going to teach you. And so I’m really blessed, really lucky to have had that experience. And what I’ve seen is that that’s not the usual experience of survivor leaders in the field, that usually the experience is, this is kind of what we believe survivors are able to do, they work great with other survivors, we love putting survivors in direct care positions, we love having survivors as consultants, we love having survivors as advocates.

[00:19:06] As speaker roles, but when it comes to like, especially executive leadership, leadership positions, administration positions, those just don’t gel with. Survivor skill sets or they’re not the place where like the survivor voice is most needed and I really have been wanting to push back and been pushing back on some of those and trying to guide organizations to being like, we need to be a part of teaching survivors

[00:19:32] how to step into those roles because anybody who’s good at those things, they’ve got to be good at those positions by having the experience and to do that. Nobody, you know, no executive, no ED didn’t have some kind of at least tangential, experiences that helped them learn how to do that.

[00:19:50] Or, maybe they didn’t. I have known EDs who had no experience and stepped in, and they learned, and they fought, sought help, and they found out how. And survivors are just as capable of learning that as anyone else, right? And so, I’ve really been trying to push, like, allies to find, like, how do you hire on character, how do you hire on, goals, and then come alongside with the learning to be able to equip somebody to sit in those positions, because this needs to be a joint effort, like, I couldn’t, I would never be where I am and have the, the skill set that I have if my supervisors Didn’t have expectations that I could learn and that I could accomplish things that I didn’t know how to do when I step into, when I stepped into the field.

[00:20:39] and it’s really, it’s been incredible, obviously for my professional experience, but even for my personal growth and like self esteem to know like, oh, I can learn how to do Excel.

[00:20:51] Sandie: Oh wow.

[00:20:53] Sandie: Oh my gosh, you’re so funny because I’ve been trying to learn how to do Excel and I’m overwhelmed and I can’t do it. And,

[00:21:00] and and we’re going to make sure we put a link to safe house project because they are doing this well, and they’re such a model for the rest of us to learn from so we got We will definitely need to follow up on that conversation in another episode when we’re looking at where the biggest needs are to create that kind of lasting impact.

[00:21:30] What do you want to say to, those of us in the field? Some of us have been doing this for a very long time. we’re disappointed with our results and we just don’t know the next path. Tell us.

[00:21:45] Alia: Yeah, so I am really passionate about emergency solutions for minors. I, I mean, we need everything for adults, of course, and we need all of the solutions for minors also. But what I’m seeing, right, as this was my experience as a minor, this is the experience of, most of the adults that I’m friends with, or mentor, and especially the experience of the minors that I’m working with right now, is We’re not coming alongside with appropriate solutions for those six months post exploitation.

[00:22:23] and I think sometimes we have tried to over compensate for the poor solutions that we’ve had in the past, as far as like, we all know juvenile system and the juvenile justice system and like a lockdown behavioral health hospital are not the solution.

[00:22:43] We’ve gotten to a point where we understand that, right? But we’re asking, so we’ve created these like CSEC specific STRTPs, and we’re asking them to do the work of the first six months. And that’s not what they’re set up to do. I have worked with almost all of them across the state, and I think they would, and so they look like they’re unsuccessful.

[00:23:09] They look like these CSEC STRTPs are unsuccessful.

[00:23:12] Sandie: let’s define STRTP.

[00:23:14] Alia: Yeah, short term residential treatment program

[00:23:17] therapeutic congregate care for youth. That’s what an STRTP is. But I think they would be successful if they were getting youth who’d been stabilized already. I think that the way that these programs are written, they would be able to do something in that second six months to nine months with the youth about trying to like help reintegrate.

[00:23:37] Let’s focus on Let’s get into the deep healing. But when I have a kid that can’t get out of survival mode and like runs every three days, like we can’t, of course the STRTP or the safe home isn’t looking like it’s working and it’s looking like it’s a bad place because this kid is in a place where they can’t engage therapeutically about their trafficking.

[00:23:59] Like they’re not in that place. And so we’ve made these solutions to step in so that juvenile justice isn’t a solution, but we’re not using them. Our kids are still in juvenile justice systems and our kids are still in really locked down behavioral health centers that, that can take them right away off the street.

[00:24:21] And we’re just looking like we’ve done the thing that we’re supposed to do and we’re not, we haven’t actually because all the kids I’m working with are still in juvenile justice and they are still in the lockdown behavioral health centers that are not equipped for this population of kids. Other populations of kids, I think they’re doing really great work, not equipped for this population.

[00:24:44] It’s hard to have a lot of girls who are all exploited, especially in California, especially in, the world that we live in where they’re all connected. That’s what I’m noticing, is all the girls know each other, even if this one’s from Oakland and this one’s from San Diego. They know each other because this one knew this one’s cousin and they were in this group home together and they knew this and they know this person through social media.

[00:25:09] So you’re not getting six strangers in a treatment program together anymore. You’re getting six girls that are already connected who already have trafficking experiences and asking them to heal alongside of each other. When they can’t even, because they’re all together, they can’t even get out of survival mode.

[00:25:25] and so I’m really like passionate about finding some more appropriate solutions for youth that are just coming off the street, who have significant C Sec and trauma history, and significant rates of elopement, that those girls need a different option.

[00:25:42] Sandie: Well, that makes, me really glad that you are a member of the California CSEC Action Teams Advisory Board and so you’re working on improving policies and practices for children impacted by commercial sexual exploitation. I’d love to have another conversation in a future episode

[00:26:06] To talk about how we can improve policies at a local level, at a county level, at a state and at a national and I do believe that that conversation includes changing language that is already established and codified in our legal system. And so there’s confusion about how we talk about this that ends up labeling victims.

[00:26:37] And I’m getting away from our topic. And so I want to jump back to where we started as a vulnerable youth. Engaging with an adult equipped with the knowledge of Maslow’s hierarchy, that always just blows me away because that means that if we want to compete with the people recruiting our kids, we need to understand Maslow’s, and so you’re a mom. And I want to know how you’ve taken your knowledge, your experience, everything you’ve learned, and now you’re like officially labeled as a resilient survivor with a lot of influence. How are you applying this in your own home for internet safety?

[00:27:29] Alia: yeah.

[00:27:30] Alia: Well, we start by example. We start by the way that like I conduct myself on social media or that my husband consults, conducts himself on social media, and we don’t post very personal things. Obviously, as a survivor who’s really vocal, I have a lot of my personal things out there already, but I don’t have I don’t, I keep like my.

[00:27:52] My personal life inside my home, very separate from like my survivorship and my,voice in the field. So my pictures of my kids don’t go on social media, full pictures of our family doesn’t go on social media, my husband does the same thing, we keep our private life very private, he uses his social media for work.

[00:28:11] And that’s pretty much it. so that example is set for them, so that’s helpful. But we also have a lot of rules that don’t always make sense to the kids. but that are, we are on the same page with that. We, our kids are not allowed to have social media until they’re 16. So our oldest is coming up on that, and so she’s gonna get to have that.

[00:28:34] The amount of conversations we’ve been able to have with her, you know, up until 16, that’s significant. There’s so many conversations about social media that we’ve been able to have when, before she turns 16 this year, so many things, so many mistakes she’s been able to see her friends make before she ever got on social media.

[00:28:54] so that kind of reinforced some of those things that we’ve told her. We also, don’t have, games where they can, where people can communicate with you, and things like that, so, like, I, we have a nine year old, and, she’s not allowed to have Roblox, and she is devastated, and has been devastated for years, and has asked me for years, and, But I’ve been able to explain to her like this isn’t this isn’t because I don’t want you to have fun like there’s all sorts of other ways that we can have fun, I believe that like this, there’s a risk to your safety with people being able to communicate with you and, and so she understands that and we’ve been able to have like another thing that we’re really for us, that’s really important, is we’ve taught the older two about sextortion, the nine, my nine year old, we haven’t had that conversation with, but the older two know, because that is such an epidemic right now, the sextortion piece, so that, I mean, we can’t control, I can’t control what they do when they’re not in the home.

[00:29:54] Right? And we’re not so naive to think that, like, if she wanted to get social media and hide it from us, they’re smart kids. I’m sure she and my son could do that if they wanted to, and so we, but we have taught them that, this thing happens, where people will pretend to be one thing, or they will be one thing.

[00:30:13] you know, and they will try and blackmail, or, or extort a youth, and I need you to know that if that ever happens to you or your friend, you need to tell us, and we care way more about helping you through that situation than we do about, the consequence that you had social media when you weren’t supposed to.

[00:30:29] and so we have a lot of conversations, about safety, what safety looks like online. and I really believe that like the knowledge is power piece of all of this. Like we’re, we’re, we’ve taught them in an age appropriate way about exploitation and the dangers of the world.

[00:30:44] And, and sometimes they feel like it’s, you know, it’s not like my kids are great with these rules.

[00:30:52] Sandie: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And that’s going to be one of the things that we’re talking about at Ensure Justice, March 7th and 8th here at Vanguard University. I’m so glad you’re going to be part of that conversation as we sign off, but not for the last time we’ll have more conversations. Tell us how to find you.

[00:31:15] Alia: Yeah, well, you can find me, on at, at everything to do with Safe House Project. Basically via email is my easiest way of communicating, which is just Alia, A L I A @safehouseproject.org. But I’m also on LinkedIn, Alia Azariah, and that’s tends to be the social media and my place of communication and posting that I use the most, and you can find me at Ensure Justice in March too.

[00:31:38] Sandie: Oh, that’s so great. Thank you so much for today, Alia. I look forward to becoming part of your village and you as part of my village.

[00:31:48] Yes, thanks for having me.

[00:31:50] Alia: Thank you for joining us today, Alia. And I’ll see you at Ensure Justice, March 7th and 8th. Listeners, we’re inviting you to take the next step and go over to ending human trafficking.

[00:32:05] Sandie: org to find the resources we’ve mentioned today and to And so much more. If you haven’t visited our site before, take some time, look around at the resources, become a subscriber, and you’ll receive a newsletter with the show notes whenever a new episode drops. And if you’re already a listener, will you write a review to help others find us?

[00:32:35] And of course, follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, Ending Human Trafficking, Instagram at EHT underscore podcast, stay connected, be part of our community. Of course, I will be back in two weeks.

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Dr. Delaney Ruston joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss parenting strategies in the digital age, focusing on mental health, communication, and her book Parenting in the Screen Age.

Delaney Ruston, MDDr. Delaney Ruston is a physician and award-winning filmmaker renowned for her impactful documentaries, including the Screenagers series, which explores the intersection of technology and youth well-being. She has appeared on numerous media outlets discussing screen time, mental health, and parenting in the digital age. Dr. Ruston also hosts the Screenagers podcast and blog, offering practical advice to families navigating digital challenges. Her work is driven by a passion for fostering open conversations about mental health and technology’s role in our lives.

Key Points Dr. Ruston’s book, Parenting in the Screen Age, provides science-based strategies for calm and productive conversations about technology between parents and children. * She emphasizes the importance of setting boundaries around screen time, citing its impact on mental health and sleep. * Validation is a key parenting skill discussed in the book, helping children feel understood without necessarily condoning their behavior. * The concept of a “Vulnerable Village” encourages collective action among parents and communities to delay smartphone and social media use for children. * Dr. Ruston recommends “Tech Talk Tuesdays,” a family tradition of having short weekly conversations about technology to build understanding and establish boundaries. * She highlights the importance of balancing screen time with other enriching activities like creative projects, in-person interactions, and outdoor play. * The book provides guidance on creating collaborative family media plans that incorporate sleep time, family time, and study time rules. * Dr. Ruston shares her experience with her daughter’s mental health struggles, offering insights into how open conversations and community support can make a difference. * The Screenagers* films and associated blogs provide additional resources for parents and communities to address digital challenges collectively. * Dr. Ruston advocates for using science-based parenting techniques and communication strategies to navigate the complexities of raising children in the digital age.

Resources* Screenagers Movie Website * Parenting in the Screen Age: A Guide for Calm Conversations * Screenagers Podcast

Transcript[00:00:00] Sandie: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode number 337, Dr. Delaney Rustin and Parenting in the Screen Age. My name is Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking.

[00:00:33] Sandie: Dr. Delaney Rustin is a physician and award winning filmmaker renowned for her impactful documentaries, including the ScreenAgers series, now comprising four films that explore the intersection of technology and youth well being.

[00:00:53] Sandie: She has appeared on numerous media outlets discussing screen time, mental health, and parenting in the digital age. She is the voice behind the Screenagers podcast. and blog and offers practical advice to families navigating digital challenges. Her work is driven by a passion for fostering open conversations about mental health and technology’s role in our lives.

[00:01:26] Sandie: Today, we’re going to talk about her book, Parenting in the Screen Age, a guide for calm conversations.

[00:01:35] Sandie: I am so happy to have Dr. Delaney Rustin with us for this episode of Ending Human Trafficking. Welcome.

[00:01:45] Delaney: Oh, it’s wonderful, Sandy, to be here. Thank you.

[00:01:48] Sandie: We are, let me just tell everybody that in our next Insure Justice, March 7th and 8th, we’re going to be screening the movie Screenagers. And I’m excited now to have this interview to talk with Dr. Rustin about her book. And do you want to kind of give us a snapshot of the book and why you wrote it?

[00:02:18] Delaney: Oh, absolutely. I, 12 years ago, was really struggling at home with my two kids who wanted more and more screen time. And I had been doing documentaries on mental health issues. And I found that the mental health, if you could say that in our family, the stress was so high. And I felt completely confused on what to do.

[00:02:44] Delaney: I didn’t,

[00:02:48] Delaney: So I started to wonder as a doctor who takes care of teens and adults, what I could do to look for solutions. And I started to make the first Greenagers movie. which is called Screen Readers Growing Up in the Digital Age, which came out in 2016, although we just re released it, updated. Since then, there’s been three other documentaries.

[00:03:14] Delaney: During the time that I became much more knowledgeable, as I went on this journey to help my family, my kids, my patients, I In making these films, learned so much that I realized it would be really helpful to parents to have this information in a book. I did my residency at San Francisco and I stayed on for a couple years to do research on human to human communication.

[00:03:45] Delaney: The ways that we can more effectively use communication for good, as well as in your world, how communication can be manipulative and take advantage of people. Well, I want to be opposite. How do we as parents use techniques that understand the development of our children, understand our struggles to not be triggered by our intense emotions that we have in parenting this, and use that knowledge of communication science?

[00:04:15] Delaney: Along with everything I’ve been learning in making the documentaries and to put that in a book called Parenting in the Screen Age.

[00:04:24] Sandie: I would recommend highly listeners that you go and look for your closest bookstore, go on Amazon. and order this book. even if you’re not currently raising young people, it’s a great tool to share in, in your community. Grandparents would value this as well. So, because my community, I’m a grandparent.

[00:04:53] Sandie: And grandparents are really concerned about their grandchildren growing up in a digital age. So I’ve started recommending it to all the grandmas and grandpas. So let’s talk about the book. How did you lay it out? And can I say parenting in the screen age and the subtitle? I love a guide for calm conversations.

[00:05:16] Sandie: Because when I talk to parents who are intensely. In the middle of this right now and having flaming arguments about you can’t take that away. And, and I’ve talked to parents who have decided to shut down the internet at their house at eight o’clock at night. I’ve talked to parents who gave up and their kids don’t have any supervision.

[00:05:43] Sandie: And I often, correlate this with how we teach our kids to be safe on the streets. We started, we, when they were toddlers and could walk, and we held their hand and we said, you walk across the street when there is a crosswalk. So there’s, there’s boundaries, there’s guardrails for how you do this, and it’s not the same rule from the time you’re three years old until you’re 13.

[00:06:11] Sandie: When you’re 13, you’re walking across the crosswalk by yourself. So this book for calm conversation is really based on your experience in communication. So tell us how the book is broken down.

[00:06:27] Delaney: Yes, and I would say what’s really important is what you just mentioned. Having boundaries and limits on the, the most attention grabbing, devices ever created is incredibly important and part of our job as parents and yet there’s all this discussion in the media, how much time is okay, how much is not.

[00:06:50] Delaney: We’re not talking about the real how to. So let me give a context of first the number one thing that I say to parents which is in the book, which is there’s really no And I think it’s a better way to approach this than to have a calm conversation, whether it be once a week, which I recommend, or once every two weeks.

[00:07:15] Delaney: But you really, and I’m going to say how to do this. It’s the number one thing that is in the book and that I have still now on the stage and working in my clinic room, whatever the audience is, how valuable and vital this is. And the reason it is so important is that every day there is new things in the, in the internet age that is impacting all of us.

[00:07:45] Delaney: There are good things and there are hard things. And we get to work with our kids to have them be incredible, critical consumers of all that’s happening. And Work with them to make sure they have a very full life and it’s not overly consumed by the digital age. I made a lot of mistakes and I’m going to be telling you some of them in this interview.

[00:08:11] Delaney: I’m going to start by saying in, we call it in our home and now I have eight years of blog that helps a lot of parents, which is called Tech Talk Tuesdays. And the idea is to have a short five minute conversation with our families once a week about technology. But I was doing it wrong when we started. I was just wanting to focus on the problems.

[00:08:34] Delaney: And in fact, my daughter, when we gave her a smartphone, which by the way I would have delayed longer had I been able to know better, and And I shouldn’t say just no better, if we could have done it as a collective community to all delay. And I say that in the updated version now. Ultimately though, when I gave that to her, we also gave her a contract.

[00:08:58] Delaney: And we tried to get her to, put in there what she wanted also. And so that it would be a collaborative. She just tuned out. She didn’t want to talk about it. She didn’t want to do it. It was a real What didn’t go well, I realized that I hadn’t validated enough of the reasons why she wanted to use technology.

[00:09:19] Delaney: It’s this, it’s the same reality that people want to be understood as much as they want what they think they want.

[00:09:27] Sandie: you, can you describe what you mean by validated?

[00:09:32] Delaney: Yes, I needed to say to Tessa, wow, tell me more about why you love being on Snapchat with your friends. And then she would tell me and I would actually repeat back some of it. Oh, okay, you, you really, it does feel good when you’re invited into a Snapchat group that you feel really like and I’ll try to use her same words.

[00:09:53] Delaney: I want her to Really see that I get it doesn’t mean I agree with it doesn’t mean that I’m condoning it and say that’s fantastic Let’s get you more time on

[00:10:02] Sandie: Ah, ha, ha,

[00:10:04] Delaney: It’s just that she’s seen. Oh my mom gets it She’s not just saying oh you should not ever use that whatever because then she’s then the brain writes that person off Then they feel justified in their conscious and unconscious to say, Oh, I’m not going to listen to how we’re trying to do this safely and limit the amount of time because my mom doesn’t get it.

[00:10:27] Sandie: Hmm.

[00:10:29] Delaney: And it’s the same way, for example, as a doctor. Let’s say I have a parent who brings in their 10 year old, 11 year old who has an earache. And I look in there and I see it’s a little inflamed, but it really, the whole, everything fits that it’s a virus and doesn’t need antibiotics. I’ll say back to the parent, actually, I’m usually talking with the child because it’s a wonderful, uh, and the parent keeps wanting to, to speak up, but I just love to not talk down, but really, I’m going to be repeating back, I’ll say, wow, so your daughter she’s had feeling achy and she just doesn’t feel right and, and she’s not eating well and she has a runny nose.

[00:11:16] Delaney: That’s hard. She has a lot of stuff going on. It’s only after that. Then the parent, if I say, you know what, I’m from all my 30 years as a doctor, I can tell we’re actually going to do more harm at this point if we give antibiotics, because all the symptoms align with this being and the epidemiology with this being the viral.

[00:11:36] Delaney: So the point being the parent was heard, so she’s not going to leave the office and be mad that doctor, she just didn’t hear me. She didn’t understand how sick you felt.

[00:11:45] Sandie: Hmm.

[00:11:45] Delaney: validation is The central, central theme because as parents we are indeed so worried and we have a right to be. There’s lots of things to be worried, but what’s most important, we might be right, but are we effective?

[00:12:02] Delaney: And when we use validation, communication skills like that, we become much more effective. So when you mention the book in terms of what are the ways that, things that I make sure to include in the book, I love to talk about the three V’s. One is validate. The next next one is values, and then we’ll get to vulnerable village

[00:12:25] Sandie: Oh, this sounds fun. Values.

[00:12:28] Delaney: values are talking about what are the things that we as individuals in the family value, as well as as a family. I don’t like to say our family values without. Having the kids be thinking about what do they value because I I never want to speak for other people But once it’s been discussed like oh, do we all kind of agree that?

[00:12:52] Delaney: Being kind to people is a value and and then you can have that discussion. And so like yeah, but do we also You know, value, honesty, and so sometimes that might be that we’re not going to, we have to say something to someone that might not be as nice as we want to be. Values as parents is, I need to value, I need to parent with integrity.

[00:13:16] Delaney: That’s a key element. For me as a parent, I have to be science based, I have to look at evidence of things, and I have to do what I really think is the right, right thing. I value. People’s input. And that means you, Tessa, and um, my daughter, I value your input into figuring out how we ensure safety and not excessive screen time.

[00:13:41] Delaney: And, and then, and then, for example, I value, because of science, your guys sleep. And, you know what? This is a non negotiable. We need to have technology out of the bedrooms for sleep time. But here, Sandy, is where some of that validation comes in. Like, but I know that’s hard. I know that you are really, you’re really Empathic.

[00:14:07] Delaney: You would love to be there for your friends at any time. I, I see how it’s uncomfortable when you can’t respond. If you have a friend who’s going through a hard time and might, just, you want to know that they could call someone, could, you could give them my number. Can they call me? And I, and we could talk about maybe I’d go and get you if it’s not bedtime yet.

[00:14:25] Delaney: So it’s working together. And with that values, I say, Tess, I, I need I want your input and there’s some collaboration. I think the devices should go away at nine o’clock. You’re 13, 14. You know, I think that time you should be off by then. She might say, mom, no, that’s too early. 9. 30 or 10, or she might say 10.

[00:14:48] Delaney: And we say, let’s, let’s do 9. 30 and we’ll check in in two weeks. Let’s put this on the refrigerator as a, one of the things we’ll talk about on Tech Talk Tuesdays. So that’s where the values that all of this is. I value Tessa, your incredible creativity. I, that’s why a big part of why we’re limiting screen time because screen time is really And I’m talking about screen time as a treat, there’s a tool and there’s the treat part of it.

[00:15:17] Delaney: And the treat is really a lot of consuming, a lot of chit chat with friends, which is important, but there can be excessive, that can come at a cost. and so I, in terms of that treat time of consuming, I want to make sure, Tessa, you’re using your incredible heart and brain to produce your own life, your own things.

[00:15:40] Delaney: In person relationships with calling grandma, with, talking to, having some time to just, you’re outside and you end up just chatting with the neighbor. You’re doing your own painting. In fact, you can, you, the listeners can’t see

[00:15:54] Sandie: Yeah.

[00:15:54] Delaney: My daughter just left to go back to college and my Christmas present in a card was, Mom, you can, you can have me paint, any painting you want me to do.

[00:16:03] Delaney: And so on my wall there, is this beautiful landscape of Paris with the Eiffel Tower done out of, yeah, that she painted for me. And I got to direct it. I’m like, oh, I’d love to have that a little softer sage green. Can we do that? It was looking a little pink on the sky and still has some pink. So that’s about values.

[00:16:23] Delaney: And then Vulnerable Village is one that luckily I was just talking to Jonathan Haidt yesterday that we’re doing, talking about different collaborations and he has a book, Anxious Generation, and he’s in two of the Screen Readers documentaries.

[00:16:37] Sandie: And he was on your podcast recently. So we’ll put a link to that interview, in the show notes for our conversation today. So, so we’ve got validate, values, and the third V we’re moving into.

[00:16:53] Delaney: it’s, I like to call it Vulnerable Village, so you could say that’s, yes, so Vulnerable Village is something I came up with years ago around this and the reason I bring up Jonathan Haidt is so much of this needs to be done collectively. For example, if we’re going to delay smartphones, if our daughter or son or however they self identify don’t have that device and everyone, very, a lot of their close friends do, they’re in a pickle.

[00:17:21] Delaney: And it’s not to say they still can’t work, it absolutely can. They can use the computers and be able to Text and communicate with friends and whatnot, but better yet ideally as a community of parents we decide hey, let’s all delay smartphones until and And so this collective action concept is really being heightened by Jonathan Haidt who actually is being very Concrete, which he, which in terms of creating new social norms, is to delay giving smartphones until the beginning of high school and actually delay two years longer social media, which would be like the age you start driving if you’re getting the license at 16.

[00:18:06] Delaney: So that the, and he is very, he knows, as all of us know, this has to be done collectively because There’s, if we don’t start now with younger parents of younger kids, it becomes, much harder to do later on. Now, it’s not to say, the point is, even if our kids, and many do, have social media and, and smartphones, and social media, honestly, is now on the computers in all sorts of forms, that we can still do the work that I’m talking about.

[00:18:35] Delaney: We can still very much do helping our kids be safer online and have, and prevent excessive. Screen time. So Vulnerable Village, and I’ll give concrete examples of what I mean, when I was making the first Screenagers movie, my daughter was in seventh grade and many of the kids already back then had a phone.

[00:18:59] Delaney: and I. I was really surprised how nervous I was, but I called the other parents and I said, can we make it a tech free carpool? And you’d, yeah, and you’d think that I like, here I am, I’m pretty outgoing, you know, I wouldn’t be feeling nervous, but I really thought I’m going to be judged as like the overly controlling, the, you know, anxious, worried parent.

[00:19:27] Delaney: Fortunately, the other parents were immediately on board, which is great. I’m not saying that will always happen, but they did. And having the kids get in the car and hearing them talk and just then, and then now and then I could say a little, I got to know them a little bit better. You know, her friends was such a gift because otherwise free time becomes screen time.

[00:19:51] Delaney: It’s that much of a pull and when we have clear loving boundaries, we do so much service and goodness for our kids. It gets a little bit trickier with some of the other things that we ask. For example, my daughter in Screenagers next chapter, which deals with mental health. Problems in the digital age, and most importantly, as all of my films in the book does, focuses on solutions.

[00:20:20] Delaney: So it, that film looks at depression symptoms, all the way to clinical depression, anxiety, stress, how it’s What are some of the factors to think about how this is all playing out in the digital age? And most importantly, each one of the stories has great science slipped into the film and then also really wonderful experts talking about solutions.

[00:20:45] Delaney: Unfortunately, but this is life, my daughter had a lot of clinical depression in high school. And she was so loving, she let me film a little bit of that and, and at the end I said, Tessa, do you want to be in this film? Because you don’t need to be, there’s plenty of stories, there’s plenty of science. And she said, and she watched the rough cut and she said, mom, when I see how much it helps me to hear these other.

[00:21:11] Delaney: Kids talking and saying how things got better. It helps me so much I definitely want to be in the film and she never looked back. She started talking after the film She joined the suicide prevention club in her school and the list goes on But what I’m about to, that, that was, getting a little bit off track, but when she was doing very poorly, she wasn’t able to do the things that she loved to do.

[00:21:35] Delaney: And one is be around kids. She loves, in fact, she loves babysitting and she wasn’t reaching out to anyone and she was just hiding and no one in her room at times. And so I went to, A neighbor who she would babysit for and I said, Christy, I said, Tess is not doing so well. She has depression and she’s just not able to advocate for herself.

[00:21:56] Delaney: Would you be able to? Ask her to babysit and I immediately, I felt kind of bad that I, because I, I go, but I can pay you to pay, give her money. I didn’t mean for them to have to like go out and pay a babysitter, you know? And she’s like, I’m so glad you asked me Delaney. Of course, I would love to. And she did start asking Tessa to babysit more.

[00:22:17] Delaney: And it’s one of the pieces of the puzzle is my work for 20 years in mental health advocacy is not just, Like being able ourselves to talk about, but for all of us to get better at being a vulnerable village of how to reach out to help others or to ask for help as a parent.

[00:22:36] Sandie: so So, this element of mental health, it’s a whole chapter in the book and, and I think this integrated approach to helping parents have conversations with their kids is what I really valued about this. It is science based, but so many of the guides that I’ve. encountered. They’re about, Oh, here are the risks of social media.

[00:23:04] Sandie: Don’t do this. Don’t do this. Don’t do this. This is not probably going to be very effective with, from an adolescent development perspective. So the, the idea specifically in the mental health is helping parents figure out how to have those kinds of conversations. And, It’s like one of the most valuable chapters in the book from my perspective.

[00:23:30] Sandie: But, in those conversations, the, later in the book, you’re halfway through and you get to the contracts and family rules.

[00:23:41] Sandie: Because, you know, it talks about co parenting. Because you can have rules, but then, unfortunately, sometimes they go to Grandma and Grandpa’s house or Auntie’s, and they have different rules.

[00:23:53] Delaney: and that’s perfectly fine. That’s perfectly fine. I think, I’m so glad, Sandy, that you’re bringing up grandparents a lot because I’ve written about grandparents and that they very much have a role in this and they often feel disempowered. Like, okay, if they bring over that iPad, nothing I can say.

[00:24:12] Sandie: Hmm.

[00:24:13] Delaney: Power to the grandparent who takes that time to have some calm conversations with the parents, beforehand and talk about as well as with the young people and, and defining it.

[00:24:25] Delaney: Ultimately, people do better when they know the rules. And better yet, if they can have a say in them, that’s fantastic. Our world is full of rules. Our kids are going into a world Full of this is okay. This is not. Thank goodness. We have understandings of what’s okay, and what’s not. We know Trafficking people is not okay.

[00:24:52] Delaney: We know violence against women and females is absolutely not Okay, we have put lots of safeguards in place. Do things go awry? Do people go against what we know and what we work hard to establish? Yes! That’s why you’re doing all the incredible work that you’re doing. Our kids will do better when they know, and they help to, when they will, create the boundaries.

[00:25:22] Delaney: I like to say that there are. Roughly 33 billion and two fun things to do on a screen so that the biggest issue is it makes perfect sense that they want to be on it and play games with their friends and, and look for, you know, more ways to do cool things and watch this show and watch it again and again and a thousand YouTube shorts.

[00:25:49] Delaney: It makes sense, but it makes perfect sense that we also need to have concrete limits around this. Now, I tend to, I used to say contract, and um, you can see in the film how that came to be the concept of a contract from a woman who went viral having done one with iPhone Janelle. But I often will say a media plan, a family media plan, a, a, Collaborative contract.

[00:26:21] Delaney: So you can use the word contract, but the idea is for, for us, we really had sleep time, family time, and study time. That’s not just, and I’ll say it’s sleep time, as I mentioned, it’s both a combination of devices out of the bedroom for sleep, even through high school, and That is so science based on all the, so many reasons why.

[00:26:45] Delaney: that also has to do with what time devices are put away as they get ready for sleep time. And so families, one of the biggest issues is homework. That the kid will say, Oh, I still have homework. When you have a set boundary, devices are, go away at nine, they know they have to get their work done or they’re going to be showing up at school.

[00:27:05] Delaney: And kids don’t want to fail. They don’t want to not succeed. And you’ve got to help them if they keep not doing their homework because they were putting it off and they said, well, I’m not going to do it because it screens go away. Then like we have a, we have a problem as a family and, and let’s figure this out.

[00:27:18] Delaney: Let’s, why don’t we go to the counselor together or whatever that is. So that’s sleep time. Family time is like, no devices are away. At mealtimes when we go away for a day on a Saturday or Sunday or something, device is left at home. So my daughter, still to this day, she’s just home from college, she will say, I’m gonna leave my phone at home, mom.

[00:27:39] Delaney: You sit and it’s just more relaxing. She likes it. She likes the breaks.you, other fam, there’s other family, we’re playing, we’re watching a movie, we’re not going to double screen for our family night, we’re not going to all be on our screens. And, and then for study time, which is another hard one, that for us, for example, Tessa’s, when she had that, smart phone was out of the room and she could take breaks, but it’s not right by her.

[00:28:08] Delaney: Um, and so I’ve written about all of that in the book, all sorts of other concrete ways of doing this, but I want to get back to, um, so that’s an example of why, and what, why having a, Plan and set rules is important. Now. I talk a lot about what what does that mean when rules aren’t followed all the time?

[00:28:31] Delaney: They’re not gonna be followed all the time. So what do you do in those situations? Like that’s where we really need the help and that’s where other chapters look at that but I do want to make sure in our remaining time that we touch on some of the parenting skills around mental health challenges and I want to talk about First and foremost, three points about emotions that we can do, all of us, right now.

[00:28:56] Delaney: Whether there’s mental health problems in the home or not. And I’m going to assume right now, the general big population, putting aside any significant mental health problems, even if they are there, in fact, this still works. And the first is, emotions just happen. And You can, it’s also thoughts just happen, but I am constantly working with my kids and kids that I work with, like, Nope, there, and I’ll bring it up.

[00:29:27] Delaney: Oh, there comes that jealousy thought I just had about someone. Oh, there comes this wave of feeling sad. I wonder what it’s, what I’m feeling it for, and so as parents to model that to say, Oh, I’m having this emotion that comes up and talking to our kids who are saying, I’m feeling. Helping them to think of the name, the feeling that they’re having and say, huh, I wonder where that came from and that we don’t control it because kids feel very self punishing for the emotions and thoughts they have.

[00:30:06] Delaney: They feel really bad about feeling less than. feel really bad about feeling mad at and the problem is that prevents them from doing the number one thing that helps us to get out of stuck hard places which is feeling shame. Lists enough, it’s unwarranted shame is what people are feeling. Having enough self efficacy to say, I need help or this is what’s happening inside of me.

[00:30:38] Delaney: And if I had a dime for every time a patient says to me, I haven’t ever said this to somebody else. I would be a millionaire. So, that ability to help our kids name their emotions, help them understand that emotions and thoughts just come, there’s no judgment to that, and modeling our emotions to our kids, both the ones that are just coming up, we’re not sure what they are, Or, and often, why we’re feeling, what emotions we’re having.

[00:31:13] Delaney: I love in, in Screenagers next chapter, Laura Kastner says, she’s a wonderful expert and written many parenting books, says, how is it that we expect our kids to go to their dads and talk about their jealousy or feeling less than on the sports team when the dad is never talking to them about their emotional internal experiences?

[00:31:39] Sandie: So, my mind is racing now and there is so much more. We have to have another conversation, Dr. Reston. I want our listeners to know that if you’re at Insure Justice, March 7th and 8th, we’re going to be doing the new version of Screenagers. We’re doing a screening and we’re inviting parents. And as we sign off today, can you tell us where to find the resources that we’ve talked about?

[00:32:15] Delaney: So, anyone can go to Screenagersmovie. com. The blog is right there and it has a search bar, so look up anything that you want and you’ll get the blog, but it’ll also bring up podcasts, and so I’ve done multiple podcast episodes on all of these. Again, the whole idea. People can find the trailers to all four of the documentaries and how to bring it to their community.

[00:32:42] Delaney: Because what we have been doing now for eight years and have had millions and millions of people in this country and other countries. come together, kids and adults and in schools and out of schools, seeing the film with all the solutions and then saying, okay, what other solutions can we be doing and how do we implement these things?

[00:33:04] Delaney: Collective community action is where this is all going to get, make things get much better.

[00:33:12] Sandie: I am so grateful and I’m going to leave this conversation thinking about the three V’s, validate, values, and our village. And I look forward to Communicating, um, developing our relationships and working together to end human trafficking. Thank you so much, Dr. Rustin.

[00:33:33] Delaney: Thank you, Sandy. It was a delight.

[00:33:35] Thank you, Dr. Delaney Rustin. I encourage our listeners to check out her book and visit the Screenagers website. We are also inviting you to take the next step and go over to endinghumantrafficking.

[00:33:54] org. That’s where you can find resources we’ve mentioned in this conversation. And so much more things like the anti human trafficking certificate program here at the global center. And if you haven’t visited that site before, this is a great time to take the first step, become a subscriber, and you’ll receive an email with the show notes.

[00:34:21] When a new episode drops, follow us on Instagram and Facebook. And of course, I’ll I’ll be back in two weeks.

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Christopher Diorio joins Dr. Sandie Morgan to discuss proactive parenting approaches that reduce children’s vulnerability to online exploitation and prevent human trafficking.

Christopher DiorioChristopher Diorio is a supervisory special agent with Homeland Security Investigations in Washington, D.C. He specializes in combating human trafficking and child exploitation. With over two decades of law enforcement experience, Chris has been at the forefront of investigating complex cases and developing strategies to dismantle criminal networks. He is passionate about prevention and advocates for proactive parenting approaches to reduce children’s vulnerability to exploitation. Chris will also be a featured speaker at Insure Justice on March 7th and 8th, 2025.

Key Points* Children must be taught to become “hard targets” to protect against online exploitation. * Parents should familiarize themselves with the social media platforms and apps their children use by downloading them personally. * The concept of “hard targets” stems from lessons in personal safety that parents pass on to their children in real life, such as protecting wallets or purses. * Parental controls on social media apps are essential tools but are underutilized by many parents. * Parents should balance allowing children access to social media with supervision and clear guidelines. * Blocking children entirely from social media can hinder their ability to learn safe online habits under parental guidance. * Open, daily conversations between parents and children about online interactions build trust and awareness. * Children need to recognize and trust their instincts when encountering abnormal online behavior. * Online predators often use tactics such as creating multiple personas to manipulate and build trust with children. * The dark web is not inherently evil but can be misused by bad actors to exploit children. * Community collaboration, including law enforcement, schools, and parents, is crucial in preventing exploitation. * Empowering parents to raise their cyber IQ and engage actively in their children’s digital lives reduces vulnerability.

Resources* iGuardian

Transcript[00:00:00] Sandie: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode number 336.

[00:00:14] Sandie: Proactive Parenting to Prevent Online Exploitation with Christopher Diorio.

[00:00:22] Sandie: My name is Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I’m so grateful to have our guest, Christopher W. Diorio

[00:00:38] Sandie: With us today, and he is a supervisory special agent with Homeland Security Investigations in Washington, D. C. There he specializes in combating human trafficking and child exploitation. With over two decades of law enforcement experience, Chris has been at the forefront of investigating the complex cases and developing strategies to dismantle criminal networks.

[00:01:12] Sandie: He is passionate about prevention and he advocates for proactive parenting approaches to reduce children’s vulnerability to exploitation. I’m excited because he’s going to be at Ensure Justice, March 7th and 8th, 2025. There will be a link to register to join us in the show notes. But for now, we’re going to have a conversation with Chris and demystify technology and empower our communities to take action. Welcome.

[00:01:53] Christopher: Thank you, Dr. Morgan. I very much appreciate the opportunity to be here with you today.

[00:01:57] Sandie: Well, let’s get started. In one of our past conversations, you mentioned the importance of making children hard targets, and that caught my imagination. We’re going to use that terminology during this podcast. What. What would it mean for you to make a child a hard target?

[00:02:25] Christopher: Well, thank you very much. You’re right. I hard target is a term that I have used I don’t really remember where it came from and where it started, but it’s certainly something that’s sort of baked into a lot of parents and teaching their kids, right? And when we were children likely it was your mom telling you when you’re on a busy subway to maybe move your purse over your head and wear it like a shoulder bag and put it in front of you Or it was a dad telling a son to move your wallet from your backpack And and just over the course of being reared, you get to the point where your parents are making you hard targets in life.

[00:02:59] Christopher: They’re teaching you these little bits of lessons. And when we start talking about technology or exploitation of children through the lens of technology, We went through an entire generation where the kids were going up with a type of technology that the parents just didn’t have or weren’t available to them, so they didn’t know how to put those lessons on to the children to make them hard targets.

[00:03:21] Christopher: So I started pretty early on in my. investigative career into child exploitation and the sexual abuse of children to start educating children and parents on how to become hard targets and sort of apply those lessons in the world or the online world

[00:03:39] Sandie: So Chris, can you break down what this means and share everyday actions? parents can take to build resilience and reduce their child’s vulnerability.

[00:03:53] Christopher: Sure. One of the first things that, I like to encourage with parents is getting comfortable with sort of the ecosystem or the world that their kids are going to be living in online, right? if they’re going to be using a particular type of, social media, if they’re going to be operating, on these group chats with their friends, make sure you sit down with them and explain to them that, they need to know that every person that’s on this, making sure that they understand that whatever has been put on the Internet is going to live on the Internet forever.

[00:04:21] Christopher: And then I often ask parents to sort of take. their own personal experiences from when they were coming of age, right? You have to, as a parent, think back to that time when you were 12, 13, 14, and sort of the hormones and the changes that your body was going through and remember what that was like and now apply sort of the pressure that comes with that, with that in and of itself to it being 24 seven through constant communication, right?

[00:04:50] Christopher: And so from that, If you download the apps themselves, like, I, I haven’t mentioned yet, but I do have a daughter who’s, who’s, 13 years old, and before she gets any application or is allowed to learn anything, I’m going to download it myself. Unfortunately, I have way more social media accounts than I would have preferred to have.

[00:05:06] Christopher: but I feel like that’s one of the most important things we can do is actually understand the world that they’re going to be communicating in.

[00:05:13] Sandie: So let’s talk about what kind of, let’s say, what kind of protections can parents put in place. The some, here are some of the options that I’ve had conversations about. Uh, parent who does not allow any social media on their iPhone or Android phone, the parent that says, I’m going to look at your phone every day and check all of your conversations.

[00:05:47] Sandie: And the parent that says, I just trust you. And I know you’ll make a good decision. So that’s a really broad spectrum. What kind of guardrails do you recommend putting up?

[00:06:02] Christopher: Yeah, Dr Morgan. That’s a that’s a really good point. Um, you know, look, it’s not going to be I completely and intrinsically trust you, to just make the right decisions. Um, I wouldn’t put that level of pressure on my children, nor would I ask that parents in general do that. Tech companies have put a tremendous amount of effort into putting parental controls in a lot of social media for a reason.

[00:06:22] Christopher: I also think it’s a sliding scale on how you deal with that, right? It’s going to depend on your particular guidelines as a child. How old is that child? What is their mental maturity of that child? But I think we’re remiss if we completely block our kids out from this world, because what ends up happening is if they’re not learning to use, this social media and interact with people online under the guidance of a trusted adult or a guardian, At some point, they’re going to be released into the world, and they’re going to have no protections in any way, shape, or form, and they’re not going to have learned those hard lessons.

[00:06:55] Christopher: So I personally fall into that middle ground of the three options you gave, which is to allow them to use it, allow them a little bit of freedom, allow them to understand what the benefits are, but then take the time to explain what the downsides are, right? I, as a parent, am constantly leveraging wanting my kids to feel safe and secure and be happy against also warning them of the dangers that do exist in this world.

[00:07:24] Christopher: Right. And having worked these investigations for 20 years, I can tell you those dangers are are horrible. and so I want them to see the problem coming and going back to the hard target analogy we referred to is if you can identify a problem before it is a problem, that is the easiest way to avoid it.

[00:07:43] Christopher: So the example I give a lot of parents is if, if I know somebody is going to pickpocket me, I can just cross the street and, and avoid the interaction altogether. So seeing the problem, understanding the behavior, of predators online and how they work is going to be the best way to avoid that and the best way to become a hard target.

[00:08:02] Christopher: And I think that only happens with limited or, supervised use of social media and these internet platforms and the parental controls that they build into them.

[00:08:12] Sandie: So parental controls, I get that. And I’m often horrified when I’m talking to a group of parents who have never opened the parental controls. What do parental controls do for you as a parent?

[00:08:30] Christopher: Sure. And now it, it, it varies greatly depending on the company or the type of social media. There are some that have leaned into children and children’s communication. They have built messaging apps that are specifically designed for kids, so that the kids can communicate with each other and all of the communications will be put into the parents, social media account as well for review at any given time.

[00:08:53] Christopher: you can turn on or off. Explicit language or messaging and filters that are built into it. Others are less. cooperative, if you will, whereas they allow you to see who the child is communicating with, but not the content of the communication in any way, shape or form. So if you’ve got like sort of a group chat with a bunch of friends from school and inappropriate data was being, shared amongst these kids, or, or, or an adult pretending to be a kid was able to infiltrate that group, you know, the parent wouldn’t be able to see like signs of grooming or other, atypical or, or behavior that would be inappropriate for that. and so understanding those different social media apps and what the parental crawls are is probably one of the most important things. And in full disclosure, it’s not an easy task. It is difficult. Each one is different from the other. these apps are not making money off of parental controls.

[00:09:47] Christopher: So it’s not parental controls aren’t necessarily like the first thing that they’re working on, to fix bugs.

[00:09:54] Sandie: Wow, and that’s an economic. aspect of what we’re dealing with here. So as parents, I think we can drive more motivation for corporate America to put those in place. So our advocacy as parents is part of how we build those guardrails. So Then, in a conversation with a 13 year old who has supervised social media, what are some of the daily topics that come up in the conversation with a trusted adult, a parent, a caregiver, maybe even a grandparent?

[00:10:37] Christopher: Sure. so I make it a, a point of, of chatting with my daughter regularly about who she’s speaking to and what she’s, talking about at any given time, you know, more often than not the, the conversation doesn’t start with you know, there are people out there that are looking to exploit children and these adults, right?

[00:10:56] Christopher: This conversation can happen just from poor decisions that maybe a teenage boy makes or says something in a group chat or, or one of the, you know, her many girlfriends that are on these group chats and having that open dialogue with her, leads to other conversations. So when for example, when we talk about something that maybe went awry or a kid said something about another child that was wrong, I then use that often to break into a conversation about how, that type of behavior, if normalized, can start to seem like it’s reasonable.

[00:11:30] Christopher: And then I will talk about something as, as heavy as grooming, for example, and how adults might groom a child in, which is to normalize abnormal behavior to get that child to sort of feel comfortable with things that are, are not right. and I use those often as jumping off points.

[00:11:47] Sandie: give me an example of how you have that conversation because for me it’s easy to understand, the difference between normal and abnormal, behavior. When I think about having a conversation with a 12 or 13 year old about what’s abnormal, how do I, actually communicate that. That’s a very esoteric concept.

[00:12:10] Christopher: Sure is. I, I had an, an example. My daughter was in seventh grade and she, along with, maybe a half a dozen of her friends were walking to a local coffee shop for one of the friend’s birthdays. And after school, they were going to walk, it’s about a mile walk to this spot, and they walked down a pretty busy road in Northern Virginia.

[00:12:31] Christopher: And during that walk. Now, mind you, these are 12 year old girls. Two cars beeped their horn and catcalled at these 12 year old girls and my daughter didn’t quite understand it, so I took that at the time to describe what normal and abnormal behavior was. And I said, look, you have cars passing down, and we did the math, my daughter loves math, so she leans into it, and we talked about the average amount of cars that went down.

[00:12:55] Christopher: In that one mile, you were probably passed by 100 cars, and in that 100 cars, two cars, you had abnormal behavior. behavior come from them? Actually, we said 200. I pointed out that it was probably 50 50 men, women. So let’s look at the 100 men that had passed you. and I, I use that as an example to highlight for her how, yes, not everybody is bad, but that, that the people who are abnormal in their behavior are hiding amongst all those other drivers.

[00:13:23] Christopher: and the idea is how do you identify that? And when you see it, recognize that it’s abnormal behavior and then trust your instincts when it comes to that. That felt wrong. That’s mostly because it was wrong. not specific to my daughter, but I’ve had the same conversation with groups of Children where I’m doing, what we call, uh, I guardian outreaches to children.

[00:13:43] Christopher: It’s an H. S. I run program. just to make Children hard targets. and I point that out regularly. If you’re amongst a group of friends and you’re seeing that bullying, you generally know what is abnormal and what’s wrong. And I want you to trust your instincts because more often than I’d like to admit, I hear After somebody is arrested for abusing a child, the people around them say, ah, something seemed off.

[00:14:08] Christopher: And I often say, yeah, there was, there was probably things that you would pick up on and that you just need to believe people when they tell you that their behavior is abnormal.

[00:14:19] Sandie: Wow. That is such a good conversation because it’s more than just when you’re online. It’s an in life conversation that parents will routinely have with their kids. I’m also interested in how you took something that is a little abstract and made it concrete. You broke it down in numbers with real cars passing by.

[00:14:48] Sandie: And what I hear an awful lot of is more along the lines of, I’m warning you and there are people, there are predators, they’re going to come after you. And I Would love to hear your opinion on that as a deterrent in Parental conversations.

[00:15:11] Christopher: There is, and again, I, I’m far from an academic, like yourself, but I have spent a little bit of time sort of looking into items, that, pertain to children and to criminals and how to kind of deal with that. And specifically, what you’re referencing is not necessarily the scared straight program, if you’ll recall that,

[00:15:30] Sandie: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:31] Christopher: and, and I know that a lot of the studies that came from that scared straight program actually, showed that it didn’t work very well.

[00:15:38] Christopher: and there was a bunch of reasons for that, probably not necessarily because, because a parent was, was telling them not to do something. And I don’t think it equates over, exactly, but I just think that any scare tactics need to be put into context because if we just constantly tell the children, Hey, this is bad.

[00:15:56] Christopher: This is bad. This is bad. eventually they’re just. It’s we’re going to normalize that bad behavior. And so I always make it a point to point out that the vast majority of people are good. It’s just that the bad people are hiding amongst it. And this is the potential of what could happen and why you need to look for the behavior.

[00:16:16] Christopher: I just. I, I grew up in the 80s with, with the, Just Say No campaign and that all drugs were bad. And I’m not necessarily sure we won that messaging campaign, for people. And I think that maybe over communicating has worked for me, and the kids that I’ve had the opportunity to interact with over the years.

[00:16:36] Sandie: and and that really kind of leads into another conversation Because what you said you want your family your kids to be to have good technology skills. So let’s talk a little bit about the double edged sword of technology, where it can lead to expertise or it can lead to exploitation.

[00:17:04] Christopher: Yeah, that’s a great point because, as you mentioned earlier, I used an example of cars passing in a real life situation to to highlight the scenario. 1 of the things I realized. Maybe my 1st, years into investigating child exploitation, crimes was that children’s brains are, are literally wired different than mine.

[00:17:24] Christopher: they don’t see any difference between communicating with a person right in front of them or communicating via text message or online. And that was a lesson I think that, you know, was a real wake up call for me. And in, in the particular investigation where I identified that was I had a victim who was, I think she was about 13 years old at the time.

[00:17:44] Christopher: And without giving any details of that particular investigation, it was time for me to talk to her friends as part of that investigation. And when she gave me the information for one friend, it had a phone number. It, the person lived two houses down. And then she gave me, the information for the second friend, which was, a phone number for a state on the other side of the country.

[00:18:06] Christopher: and I asked her, I said, have, have you ever met this person? And she said, no. Now, I had been talking to this young woman for, two weeks, and in her mind, the friend that lived two houses down and the friend whom she’d never met in person occupied that same space in her mind. And that was a real wake up call for me, is that kids literally use technology or interpret the information they get from technology different than sort of my generation.

[00:18:32] Christopher: Hopefully that will be fixed with this next generation, right, because they’re growing up with technology as well. But I think that double edged sword means making kids hard targets and applying all of those lessons that they learn in real life and making sure they’re applying those to an online life, right?

[00:18:49] Christopher: Being good digital citizens, understanding, that, Their actions have consequences, maybe even more so. I can’t imagine what it must be like to have everything you do monitored all the time. Like, I just, I made so many mistakes as a kid that I feel like these kids are under a tremendous amount of pressure.

[00:19:06] Christopher: and I try to be mindful of that when I’m having those conversations.

[00:19:09] Sandie: So this risk for being groomed by somebody you’ve never met but feels like a friend that you can walk over to their house. Wow, that just gives me goosebumps. I’m like, what what can I do as a parent to intervene in that thought process? And when would I know to intervene? Are there behavioral red flags?

[00:19:38] Sandie: That we can look for that might indicate grooming?

[00:19:42] Christopher: So, for the children, one of the things I like to point out is the difference. Most people understand what virus software looks like on a computer. Um, there’s really two different types of virus software. There’s the type that looks for downloads your virus definitions, right? And it will tell you, Hey, We know these files are a virus, so we will quarantine them, delete them, not let you pull them down.

[00:20:02] Christopher: And I’m sure you’ve seen this on your computers. And there’s another type of virus software called heuristic virus software, which actually doesn’t look for the particular files, but instead it looks for the behavior of the software. So, I have adopted this and, and the I Guardian Project has adopted this, and I highly suggest that parents do this, which is understanding how people groom and how it works.

[00:20:23] Christopher: A couple of examples would be something we refer to as white knighting. So you will have somebody who is online, and they will befriend a, a potential victim online. They will also create a second online persona where they will, will attack that victim. And so. They’ll start making that victim feel bad.

[00:20:43] Christopher: They will start attacking them. They will start cyber bullying them. And with the white knight account, the one that’s a friend, that white knight account will then defend the victim from there. And all of this is just a show to build trust into the victim that I am looking out for you and I am not the predator.

[00:21:00] Christopher: But really both accounts were run by the predators. It’s also like understanding For example, the Nigerian Prince, scheme where people won money, we saw that a lot in the early 2000s, late 90s. And looking back on it, it’s almost laughable that somebody would lose their entire life savings. But when it was novel and you didn’t understand it was a fraud or scam, you can get caught by it.

[00:21:24] Christopher: So again, understanding or being that heuristic software or explaining with your kids how the predators work, what they do, what is their behavior will give the kids the ability to see that behavior. Hey, it is abnormal for something like this to happen or this is the type of scam somebody might have or somebody might pretend, to be doing in order to gain your trust.

[00:21:45] Christopher: And in reality, that’s grooming and it makes it a lot easier to see it. Um, truthfully, if I had my way, I would never work another one of these investigations because we would put him out, but unfortunately, I don’t think we’re there.

[00:21:57] Sandie: Wow. Really insightful. Thank you. another question I have for you. I don’t get dads on this show very often from a father’s perspective. Is there a unique aspect of male role models?

[00:22:14] Christopher: So personally I think that my relationship with my daughter is very important. I know it’s important for me and I think it’s probably pretty important for her as well. And I think that male role models play an important role really in in both boys and girls and raising them. I often say the best thing that I can do for my daughter is treat her mother well, right?

[00:22:37] Christopher: Because I am setting that standard by which all males will be judged going forward, at least at a younger age. And I want to be that role model. I want her to see that typical behavior, how I interact with her, how I interact with her mother on a regular basis is going to level her expectations going forward.

[00:22:56] Christopher: And if I hold a high standard, when she moves out into the world, she’s going to expect that same standard, from the other males in her life. And I think just by being that person or being that father, I am, I am continually giving her the tools necessary to decipher, What’s good, what’s bad, what’s normal, what’s abnormal, and, and in effect, making her a harder target.

[00:23:19] Sandie: I love that. And the other thought that has been running through my mind since our first conversation is if I’m in a community environment and I’m part of PTA, I’m at a church, maybe I’m a group of teachers, educators. Are there some tips for how I relate to law enforcement?

[00:23:47] Christopher: Yeah, so I think that law enforcement, especially those who work in, in, in sort of the, what we refer to CSAM, the child sexual abuse material, the child exploitation world, realize that this is, this is a ubiquitous problem that knows no boundaries, right? There’s there’s no socioeconomic issues.

[00:24:06] Christopher: There’s no race issues. There’s no gender issues in the end. It’s about adults protecting Children, and working together to do that. at least in the United States of America, we have these things called the ICACs, which is the Internet Crime Against Children, task force that operate in every community across the entire country.

[00:24:25] Christopher: HSI has an iGuardian program that’s built specifically to do these types of outreaches. and I think that leveraging those or using your school resource officers to sort of talk about or engage with the children, is really important. And I think that, parents to understand that the police want nothing more than for this crime to just go away for the rest of their lives.

[00:24:46] Christopher: And, and, and that we are happy to help in any way, shape or form whenever we can. And if that means helping in a way that isn’t reactionary, but instead is proactive, like this podcast today, that we’re, we’re all in.

[00:25:00] Sandie: Oh, that’s so good. Honestly, when I talk to parents, sometimes exactly what you said about the police comes up. They just want this to go away. And parents feel like this is so overwhelming. And there are a lot of media misrepresents the hard facts. And I think one of the things I’ve heard you talk about is the dark web, which is like this monster boogeyman in my mind, and makes me really concerned that somehow this is going to be something I can’t manage.

[00:25:40] Sandie: Can you demystify that just a bit?

[00:25:44] Christopher: Yes, doctor. I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah. I think that, Not being intimidated by the technology, is, is step one for parents when we talk about keeping kids safe online and, and making them hard targets. the dark web is this thing you hear about online. It’s the seedy underbelly they’ve made children’s movies that involve like, you know, the dark web and, and I find them pretty hilarious and, and, and accurate at the same time.

[00:26:09] Christopher: But what we shouldn’t think is that the dark web is some, some spot that’s hard to get to. Ultimately, the Dark Web, really, when most people refer to that, they’re talking about Tor, which is the Onion Router, was an actual US government project that was developed and released out into the world as an open source way of communicating.

[00:26:29] Christopher: The Dark Web, or Tor, in and of itself, is not evil, it’s not good, and it’s not bad. As a matter of fact, All it does is it makes you anonymous online, and you can imagine that if you lived in a country where because of your gender, you were not allowed to learn how to read or to go to school, being able to get online and be anonymous and get access to resources or even just read the news like the BBC or the Wall Street Journal might be really beneficial because otherwise that would be blocked by your country.

[00:26:59] Christopher: You could really put the dark web through the lens of something that is beneficial for society. The problem is that anonymity that is intrinsic into, the onion router, more commonly known as the dark web, is, or a dark net, is leveraged by bad actors, right? And bad actors use it. They commit heinous crimes with it.

[00:27:21] Christopher: and that sort of, gives it that ominous feel to it. And truthfully, there are some terrible things happen in it on a regular basis. The technology is really just encryption, not unlike end to end encrypted messaging you would have with, your, your Apple phone or your Android phone or, or a messaging app.

[00:27:39] Christopher: The difference is the encryption is deployed not to keep the data safe, but the encryption is deployed to keep the users of it anonymous. And it’s very good at what it does. I mean, this isn’t, these wasn’t created by some hackers wearing hoods, like you see on television. This was created by some of the smartest cryptologists and computer programs, software engineers, in the world, really at the behest of the U.S government and under contract for them.

[00:28:03] Christopher: Which is why the technology is so good, and there is an argument for privacy. So from a parent’s point of view, going to torproject. org, going to HSI’s iGuardian resources, Leaning on DHS is no to protect, campaign will help them understand sort of how this technology works.

[00:28:24] Christopher: So they’re not intimidated by it. Ultimately, my goal is sort of to pull the veil away from, the technology itself and empower people. It is not. Intrinsically evil, and it’s not illegal, by the way. That’s the other piece. You can go to tour project dot org and download a tour browser. I would be very careful about where you visit with it, but, you could go and you can read about it and understand it.

[00:28:48] Christopher: But most importantly, what you need to know is that your kids can also do that. It’s very easy to download the browser and just get online.

[00:28:55] Sandie: Wow. Okay. So. It’s demystified, but I’m still pretty intimidated by it. So I’m going to be going to iGuardian first to get more information. And there are so many great apps out there in our community trying to keep our kids safe. We’ve interviewed people like Rachel Thomas with the Cool Ants series.

[00:29:18] Sandie: We’ve interviewed folks from Thorne, from NCMEC, um, last year at our Insure Justice Conference, by the end of the second day, we had a tagline, Talk Tech Every Day. And I think we can equate this conversation with how we reduced dental caries, cavities, decades ago, because we made brushing your teeth a daily expectation that every parent taught every year in school, you got to chew that little tablet to see with the black light, if you had any gaps in how you were brushing your teeth.

[00:30:01] Sandie: And so as we continue to dialogue on this and develop better online safety, I’m, would like to know how you have changed. You’ve been doing this for a couple of decades and as you have become a recognized, a recognized active, no, that’s not what I, a recognized advocate for proactive parenting. I think that’s why I’m so excited you’re coming to Ensure Justice because you’re an example of what we can do, not what, how we can run, hide, protect, be on our guard all the time.

[00:30:46] Sandie: And so I would like to know how you would advise parents to join you in that movement away from a fear based approach to proactive parenting.

[00:30:59] Christopher: Yes, and I certainly would, would encourage parents to lean into communications and lean into talking about tech. I, I refer to it as raising the cyber IQ of parents, but I very much like your tagline more, talk tech every day, gets to that point where we’re, we’re demystifying it, we’re pulling it back.

[00:31:19] Christopher: We’re having a conversation. And truthfully, I learned more from my child about how these apps work than, then I could figure out on my own because it’s just all very intuitive to her. And so opening that line of communication up, opening it up with the other parents, every Christmas party we have, sometimes I’m not the funnest person just for the, the nature of the work I do.

[00:31:39] Christopher: It’s kind of a downer, but if we, if we gear it to sort of their kids and their presentations, then what we ended up finding out is that, They have the skills necessary to lean into it, but they were just a little bit intimidated to your point. And, and once they have somebody sort of empower them or tell them, Hey, look, you can do this, download it, let’s do it.

[00:31:57] Christopher: As friends, we all have social media communication apps that we wouldn’t use ourselves, but for our kids being on it. So now we all sort of get in and now we communicate on it, not because we really want to, but because it’s the right thing to do. So we understand the platform that our kids are using daily.

[00:32:14] Sandie: And I do think it’s important that parents. partner in their communities. A few years back, my daughter’s friends, when my granddaughter was a teenager, had all started becoming friends with a guy at school, that it turns out when my daughter asked, who is he? Where does he live? Nobody actually had ever met him.

[00:32:42] Sandie: And so she reported it to the school, they found out he was, some, a guy in his 20s targeting high school girls. And so parents can be part of, of a community that is alert to what other kids in their kid’s friend circles can do as well. And I’m more and more convinced that proactive parenting is going to be the next big thing in combating human trafficking when it comes to online recruitment and predatory behavior.

[00:33:18] Sandie: Last remark, what do you want people to be thinking about?

[00:33:26] Christopher: Well, as it relates to being a hard target, being online and keeping our children safe, I just want people to remember that, the vast majority of the people are in fact good people in the world, right? And being able to identify that and trust your gut and trust your communication levels with your children so that you can continue to have those conversations is something we need to strive for.

[00:33:49] Christopher: Look, talking to a teenager isn’t always the easiest thing. I think we all know that. but you know, as parents, we should, we should embrace that and we should continue to talk tech every day. And I fully endorse that.

[00:34:00] Sandie: Thank you so much, Chris. it’s been a pleasure to have you with us today. I have learned so much. I’ve got more questions, but I’m going to have to have you come back. No, wait, I’m going to have you come to Vanguard inn March, 7th and 8th, Ensure Justice, sign up so you can have a personal conversation with our team here.

[00:34:23] Sandie: And everybody, if this is your first time to listen to the podcast, go over to the EndingHumanTrafficking.org website. Subscribe, and you’ll get an email when a new episode drops every two weeks. Give us some feedback. Are there topics you’d like us to explore? And join us.

[00:34:47] Sandie: Again in two weeks.

View Details

Brian Joseph joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as they discuss how investigative journalism can reveal the hidden realities of sex trafficking in the United States.

Brian JosephBrian Joseph is an investigative journalist with more than 20 years of experience uncovering stories of systemic corruption, criminal enterprises, and human exploitation. His latest book, Vegas Concierge, is a riveting expose that shines a light on the darker realities of the entertainment capital of the world.

Key Points Investigative journalism plays a crucial role in exposing human trafficking networks and systemic corruption. * Vegas Concierge* tells the story of Angela, a survivor of sex trafficking, providing insight into the lived experiences of victims. * Las Vegas is considered a hub for trafficking activities, often referred to as a “Mecca” within the pimp subculture. * The tipping culture in Las Vegas casinos facilitates trafficking by allowing trafficked women to navigate and avoid detection. * Many traffickers coerce women into the sex trade by exploiting past trauma and manipulating their self-worth. * Women often cycle through multiple traffickers, unable to break free from the system due to a lack of alternatives. * Female traffickers are common, yet often overlooked in discussions around human trafficking. * Institutional complicity and economic incentives within the casino and entertainment industries perpetuate trafficking. * Grooming, though not explicitly illegal, is a critical step in the coercion and exploitation process. * The book emphasizes the importance of understanding the specific details of trafficking cases, rather than generalizing experiences. * Joseph highlights the nonpartisan nature of human trafficking as a human rights issue that should be prioritized politically. * A call to action for readers is to engage deeply with the issue, educate themselves, and push for systemic change.

Resources* Buy Book * VegasConciergeBook.com

Transcript[00:00:00] Sandie: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode number 335, Investigative Journalism, a Pathway to Understanding Sex Trafficking. We’re here with. Brian Joseph. My name is Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking.

[00:00:51] Sandie: Brian Joseph is an investigative journalist with more than 20 years of experience uncovering stories of systemic corruption, criminal enterprises, and human exploitation. His latest book, Vegas Concierge, is a riveting exposé that shines a light on the darker realities of the entertainment capital of the world.

[00:01:20] Sandie: Brian, welcome to our podcast.

[00:01:23] Brian: I’m glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:25] Sandie: So you’re used to putting all of your energy into written expression. How are you enjoying being on the speaking circuit. I saw you last night at a book signing and last month at another one.

[00:01:43] Brian: It’s, it’s been a change. Obviously I’m feel more comfortable behind a keyboard than anywhere else, but this has been a lot of fun.

[00:01:49] Brian: It’s, it’s great to, you know, interact with folks that have read the book and, and it’s always a, you know, I enjoy talking with people.

[00:01:55] Sandie: All right. Well, we’re going to have a great conversation. I do have a keyboard here. I could let you hold. So, okay. So tell us what. What drove you to actually do more than just an investigative article, but an entire book?

[00:02:13] Brian: Well, I think, you know, by the time that, uh, uh, I started working specifically on, on the case that became the centerpiece of Vegas Concierge, I had already, gathered quite a lot of information about domestic sex trafficking in the United States. And so, and then the, the story itself that does serve as a centerpiece of the book is such a winding tale that it, it just seemed quite, quite obvious that it would, it would most fit as a book rather than anything else.

[00:02:38] Brian: There was just so much material, so much of a plot that it, it would, I couldn’t imagine telling that story in any other way.

[00:02:45] Sandie: So let’s do, it’s really hard because this, I don’t remember how many pages it is, but can you give us, in a nutshell, the theme and your agenda as you processed how to put this story together?

[00:03:03] Brian: Well, uh, Vegas concierge uses a, uh, the tale of a years long investigation into sex trafficking in Las Vegas is a narrative vehicle to explore how American society fails victims and survivors of sex trafficking. It was a project that required a lot of sensitivity and required a lot of work to get it put together in such a way that it was, I felt that it could be beneficial and impactful to the larger society.

[00:03:30] Brian: And, uh, it was something that required a lot of, uh, diligence and thought to put together in a way that was hopefully respectful and appropriate while also, while also, being authentic.

[00:03:40] Sandie: So one of the things, and it’s not a spoiler alert for our listeners, but one of the conclusions towards the end of Brian’s book is a great place to start as we explore more. In this story, he says, this is modern day slavery, a nonpartisan human rights issue. If there ever was one and it’s time it’s eradication becomes a part of the American political agenda.

[00:04:15] Sandie: And Brian. I am totally in sync with that. I have served in so many capacities and I am constantly bringing back to the table that this is nonpartisan. So as a disclaimer, before we start our conversation, cause we may not always agree, we are both committed. to the human dignity of our survivors and victims that are out there that we have not recovered.

[00:04:44] Sandie: So, okay. So, we’ll dive in. My first big question now is in your very unsettling story, what Initially inspired you to make Las Vegas the focal point.

[00:05:04] Brian: Well, that’s, that happened to be where I was, where I was based and where I began my investigation of domestic sex trafficking. So, to some degree, it was just, you know, where I happened to be.

[00:05:16] Brian: Now, on a more, on a grander scale, Vegas, as I understand it, is considered by, by many people in the, uh, the pimp prostitution subculture to be sort of the, the Mecca of, of that, of that community. And so it made sense to me to center the book on, in Vegas because it is such a, a nexus for this sort of activity.

[00:05:35] Sandie: I have to agree totally with that. I was shocked when I first came back from living overseas and got involved in understanding what sex trafficking looks like here in America, and discovered a pimp conference. In Las Vegas, they get together and they study and share notes and say, Oh, this works, but this doesn’t.

[00:06:00] Sandie: They collaborate in sharing knowledge, which honestly, one of the reasons I love doing this podcast is it’s an easy way to share what we’ve learned with others and connect our knowledge and insight. So give us a rundown on your top characters in this narrative.

[00:06:24] Brian: Well, I would use the word subjects because they are, they are, they are real people.

[00:06:27] Brian: Obviously, the, the primary subject of the book is Angela. She’s a survivor and we, we follow her through the course of her life and her experiences in the pimp prostitute subculture and as, as being trafficked. Another main subject is Don. He is a retired vice sergeant from Las Vegas who has a deep heart for these victims and survivors and was very disturbed to see how certain issues played out in the community.

[00:06:50] Brian: The primary trafficker in the book is a, uh, a hip hop music producer by the name of Molly Mall. Uh, and then there’s a number of, of other people, other traffickers, other smaller characters that are, are subjects I should say that are, that are, that were victimized. And then there are just another collection of, of police and judicial figures in the book as well.

[00:07:10] Sandie: So one of the themes that was kind of new knowledge for me, I mean I supposed that there was a lot of connection with the hospitality industry in Vegas, but that’s an area that you established direct connections. Can you expand on how that helps us understand ways to intervene with victims, male and female, ways to begin to establish effective interventions to help them leave their victimization?

[00:07:56] Brian: Well, sure. So the book, uh, talks a lot about the interplay between victims and survivors of sex trafficking and sort of the larger casino industrial complex of Las Vegas. Uh, you see in the book, women who are being trafficked, who have to interact with people like taxi cab drivers or valets or security guards.

[00:08:16] Brian: And you see how, The tipping culture of Vegas allows them to essentially work their way through the massive facilities that are casinos in Las Vegas.

[00:08:28] Sandie: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. This, this is a new, new way of thinking the tipping culture is involved in human trafficking.

[00:08:37] Brian: Absolutely. So as you may may be aware Las Vegas runs-

[00:08:42] Sandie: Im not a regular visitor to Las Vegas.

[00:08:45] Sandie: So yeah, you have to educate me

[00:08:47] Brian: Sure, so a huge a huge way that business is done in Las Vegas involves involves tipping So if you you know, you want to you know you know, maybe, uh, get into a certain part of the casino that, uh, you might not otherwise have access to, or you want to, you know, find out, uh, you want to get a, a referral to, uh, you know, a cool club or whatever you might, uh, you might ask a, a taxi cab driver for, for referral and, and either you might tip them for that, or, or maybe, uh, the person that you refer them to the taxi cab driver refers you to might get a tip for, for, for that referral.

[00:09:21] Brian: And so that what happens with, uh, with victims and survivors of sex trafficking is they will, uh, they will often tip security guards to, to in a casino so that the security guards might let them know if police are in the area so they can watch their back or the security, they might tip the security guard so they can be allowed to, to loiter in an area where they otherwise might be not allowed to loiter.

[00:09:43] Brian: And so that sort of tipping culture is a, is a tool that women who are being trafficked used to to then work their ways through casinos in Las Vegas, and it’s a way for them to sort of operate without being detected. Now, it does speak to the sort of interplay between that that subculture and and the above board casinos that operate in Las Vegas.

[00:10:07] Brian: It does. I should point out that it’s unclear at the highest levels of casinos, whether they’re there intimately aware of what’s going on or if they’re just sort of vaguely aware of what’s going on. I think, I don’t know that there’s any, there’s any doubt that the people at the highest levels know that this happens to some degree.

[00:10:22] Brian: I don’t know the extent to which they, they understand that this is happening.

[00:10:26] Sandie: Okay. So when we’re talking about these direct connections, then what other levels are there? You, you talk about entertainment there, and sometimes it feels like even when you’re talking, talking up in a, in the story of tipping that this is something that the women are doing.

[00:10:52] Sandie: So it seems to take the trafficker, the pimp out of the story and she appears to have agency. Can you comment on that? On how that comes across.

[00:11:04] Brian: I want to make very clear that I don’t believe. Well, I don’t want to take agency away from anybody, but I want to make very clear that that when I’m talking about traffickers, I’m sorry, trafficked women engaging in perhaps tipping.

[00:11:17] Brian: This is not something that That they came up with on their own and that they decided they want to do. This is an expectation of them that’s placed on them by their trafficker. They need to do whatever is necessary to execute their goal of selling sex for the trafficker. And so these victims and survivors, these women have to learn sort of essentially the ropes of surviving in Vegas.

[00:11:36] Brian: And often they have, of course, most of the time they’ve been manipulated into into this lifestyle in the first place. So. On one hand, yes, they, I guess you could say that they consciously, you know, learn these skills in order to, to operate in Las Vegas, but on a much larger level, they have been coerced into this lifestyle and been convinced that they, they want to and desire to engage in this sort of behavior and that they are indeed being pressured to do whatever, whatever is necessary to, to make a buck in the sex industry.

[00:12:07] Sandie: And that really speaks to the blurred lines around the sense that we can call someone a seller and arrest them for selling illicit sex, but not actually see them as a victim. So they look like they have agency. Can you speak to what you learned about grooming that results in this coercive manipulation?

[00:12:38] Brian: Well, absolutely. So, so grooming plays a central part of, of the victimization of, of women who are trafficked. Grooming in and of itself, as I think we discussed the other day, at least on its face, as I understand it, doesn’t doesn’t qualify as a crime. I mean, that’s just somebody cozying up to you, but it’s a very coercive behavior that then allows traffickers to become very close to their victims and essentially convince the victims that it’s their own initiative.

[00:13:08] Brian: And their own desire to engage in this behavior when in fact, I think the the record will show that these women have truly been been brainwashed and been manipulated into this lifestyle. But it is a very difficult and very subtle interaction that we’re talking about. And it’s something that most people have a difficulty wrapping their mind around.

[00:13:27] Brian: And it, and it, it. It’s different for for every trafficker and every victim. It’s, it’s very hard to talk about these things in in vague generalities or sort of in theory. You really, it’s, it’s really important to talk about them with, you know, in this specific case at hand, because again, the, these things are so, are so nuanced.

[00:13:48] Brian: It’s just, it’s just very difficult to say in, in sort of broad strokes, you know, this is the way it is or that is the way it is. It, it, it’s, you really need to look at, I, I believe you really need to look very closely at the, uh, the facts of an individual case to be, to begin to understand, uh, what may be driving, uh, the behavior of a woman who is being trafficked.

[00:14:07] Sandie: So what. Would you point out specifically about Angela that you used her story with her permission and collaboration to teach us about that? What are some key signs?

[00:14:22] Brian: Well, in Angela’s case, I mean, there’s a, there’s a number of, of potential signs you could point to. I mean, I think one of the largest one is, is the number of promises that were made to her by various traffickers that she engaged with.

[00:14:33] Brian: And there was always these promises of, you know, a dream team of lawyers of. You know, ascending to, you know, higher ranks of the, of the industry of, of, of, I guess you could even say protection or, um, satisfaction, you know, those were empty promises that she was given.

[00:14:51] Sandie: And you use the plural for traffickers.

[00:14:55] Sandie: And so give us kind of a timeline or, or a way to conceptualize the idea that this, this crime is something that can often become a pattern in a victim’s life. They may get away from one trafficker to be controlled by another.

[00:15:18] Brian: Well, it’s important to understand that survivors and victims of sex trafficking often don’t Don’t have a clear view of their own of what’s going on with themselves.

[00:15:28] Brian: They don’t necessarily see themselves as victims they don’t necessarily really even see the at least initially the the coercion that’s been it’s been affecting them, Often times women who are are trafficked have suffered tremendous traumas earlier in their lives long before they ever thought about engaging in in sex work and and and what happens is, is these, these traffickers step in and exploit those traumas, exploit the, the, uh, the harm of those traumas caused, you know, perhaps they, they, uh, these women have low self esteem and a trafficker may step in and say, you know, you know, may, may, may pump her up, may, may make her feel good about herself and use that sort of connection to then push her into, into the work and into sex work.

[00:16:14] Brian: And so, So these women, this becomes all that they really know the, the, the only sort of relationships that they, they, they become familiar with are these sort of exploitative, coercive relationships. And so, yes, they may get tired with, with one trafficker. They may, they may get very upset with being beaten or being lied to and eventually leave.

[00:16:36] Brian: But once, once that happens, uh, they, they really don’t have a, uh, a picture in their brain of any other sort of relationship, and so then they become, you become victim to the, the coercion and exploitation of another trafficker and then another trafficker. And it’s very similar and akin to, uh, someone who engages in a serial, a series of, uh, of dysfunctional relationships.

[00:16:59] Brian: It’s very much in that same vein.

[00:17:02] Sandie: And the, the lineup of people that trafficked Angela is horrendous and, but it really points to something people often overlook. Traffickers are not all like Hollywood images, and it’s, It’s wonderful that you point out that one of her traffickers was female, because we overlook that.

[00:17:29] Sandie: We look, uh, and in the early days of doing raids and busts to recover even quote unquote rescue victims, all of the women would be in the same room. And then we’d find out later, Oh my gosh. One of them was going around telling. them, what would happen to them if they said anything. And so I eventually did some research that showed about 40 percent of sex trafficking, traffickers are female.

[00:18:05] Sandie: And you did such a great job. And this isn’t supposed to be great job, Brian. Podcast. But that was one of the highlights of the book for me is you told that story. Do you want to comment on how you saw that? Were you expecting that?

[00:18:22] Brian: I, uh, by the time I, uh, began working with Angela, I was familiar with the fact that there are at least some women who, who are traffickers.

[00:18:29] Brian: So that, that didn’t necessarily come as a surprise. I, of course, hearing. You know, the details of Angela’s story was, was very traumatic and very upsetting. And I, I would hope that anyone who reads the book would, would come to the same conclusion.

[00:18:44] Sandie: So good. So the institutional complicity that was, that was something that was a thread through the entire book and it actually seemed to contribute to the the word that came to mind is a thriving money making industry.

[00:19:10] Sandie: And I, and I want to point out to folks listening that exploitation is the bottom line for sex trafficking. Someone else is profiting by commercially selling another person. So can you speak to how you told the story of that complicity?

[00:19:34] Brian: I told that story very carefully. I mean, the difficulty in in in reporting on something like that is it’s not necessarily something that people are going to want to talk about directly, and it’s not something that you’re going to find a lot of direct clear examples of.

[00:19:49] Brian: It’s something that you’re going to have to come to by by talking to someone here, looking at a document there and sort of beginning to put the pieces together yourself. There’s not one single. individual that’s going to be able to say, this is what’s going on in this situation. I mean, it’s something that you really need to, to piece together bit by bit.

[00:20:06] Brian: And that’s what I, I, I’d like to think we did in the book.

[00:20:09] Sandie: So what were some of your methods? You, what are you piecing together?

[00:20:14] Brian: Well, you know, my, my method as a, as a journalist is, is to be, is to be very thorough and be very careful and to, you know, to essentially, you know, talk to everyone that I possibly can and to review every, uh, piece and piece of written material that I can and, and to begin to see connections and draw connections and then, and then to return to my sources and ask him, am I making the right connections?

[00:20:34] Brian: Am I, am I seeing the right things? And uh, uh, did that numerous times over the course of this book and, and, uh, you know, repeatedly was told, yes, you’re on the right track. This is exactly what the picture truly is.

[00:20:48] Sandie: So, one of the things that I loved about how you told the story is you were totally committed and commented in the narrative in the chapters telling stories about the personal agency, the respect, and checking back to make sure you got it.

[00:21:11] Sandie: Right. From their perspective. What made that your like your plumb line for this? Because honestly, sometimes journalists are just looking to see how many people are going to read this. And I don’t always see a lot of respect for the actual person behind the story.

[00:21:36] Brian: That’s just who I am as a person. I mean, that’s what matters to me and what’s important to me.

[00:21:40] Brian: I mean, the beauty of writing a book is that, you know, I got to call the shots about what the standards would be in terms of how we handled the approach, in terms of we handled the reporting and handled, you know, various disclosures. And the book just reflects what I believe is important.

[00:21:53] Sandie: So then if you’re speaking, I’m at a university, I have journalism students that I work with.

[00:22:01] Sandie: I was in a conversation yesterday with one of them. Success now looks like a model of social media getting likes and the clear understanding is that if you want to get those, you have to do the sensational stuff. What was the personal price you paid because you didn’t go down that road?

[00:22:33] Brian: Well, I, I guess we’ll still see.

[00:22:34] Brian: I don’t, uh, you know, we’re only at the publication of the book. I don’t know at this point what sort of personal price I’ll pay for the approach that I’ve taken to this book. What I, what I will say is that my overriding concern the entire time, even to this day, is, is accuracy. I still find myself going, gosh, did I get that sentence right?

[00:22:51] Brian: Did I do that correctly? I mean, I just care very much about that. I mean, the notion of having, popularity be a priority for me, which just, which just wasn’t there. My, my, my focus was on telling the best, most empathetic and truthful story that I could.

[00:23:08] Sandie: I, I just love how you treated the victims who were being exploited.

[00:23:14] Sandie: So sometimes we can clearly identify that someone is by law, by the elements of force, fraud and coercion, a victim, of sex trafficking, of human trafficking. But sometimes it’s not as clear, and I’ve heard you use, and I read, the word exploitation. So how are you using that language? Because language matters.

[00:23:44] Sandie: Absolutely. And it contributes to an understanding of that pathway. So talk to me about exploitation.

[00:23:54] Brian: I mean, this may, this may be a simplistic way of putting it, but for purposes of our conversation, you know, I tend to very generally think of exploitation as, as simply, uh, another person laboring for the benefit of another.

[00:24:09] Brian: And that’s certainly what, uh, what is going on. As it relates to victims and survivors of sex trafficking, there is a pimp, uh, above them who through manipulation or through force, makes them engage in activities and then the reaps almost, almost or entirely the benefits of those activities that to me is exploitation and should bother anyone with a pulse.

[00:24:35] Sandie: (laughs) That shows the humanity side of you, Brian. I, I, when I think about exploitation, I actually have begun to look at it in my own world because it’s an economic term, which this human trafficking is an economically based crime.

[00:24:58] Brian: Absolutely.

[00:24:59] Sandie: And so we will be sitting around the table making a strategic plan for our company, our business, our, our newest program.

[00:25:11] Sandie: And someone will say, well, how can we exploit these resources? It’s a business term. And we’re very comfortable leveraging because leveraging is one of the elements of exploitation. Do you think culturally that kind of profit agenda is something we have ignored in our prevention and intervention?

[00:25:40] Brian: that’s a good question.

[00:25:40] Brian: I don’t, I don’t know. Um, I mean, if you, if you’re talking about using the term exploit as in the business terms of say, you know, you’re, you’re an automotive manufacturer and, uh, you’re in a meeting and you say, you know, we have a good relationship with this provider of tires and they can make a lot of tires quickly.

[00:26:00] Brian: We should exploit that by, you know, doing whatever. I don’t, I don’t find that upsetting. I find, I find using terms like exploitation or exploit in reference to people upsetting. So I guess my, my response to that would be context matters as well as, as language. And when you’re talking about people, I think we should, we should think more carefully and, and more thoroughly about the language we use.

[00:26:26] Sandie: I agree. One of the most interesting chapters is when you start talking about policy agendas. So talk to us about your understanding of decrim, legalization. What do you think is the most important thing for people to pay attention to?

[00:26:48] Brian: Well, I think, you know, there’s a number of different ideas on the table for addressing sex trafficking, both in the United States and elsewhere.

[00:26:56] Brian: There are a number of people in the anti trafficking movement here and across the globe who, who believe different things. You know, some believe legalization, some believe decrim, some believe the Nordic model, some believe, you know, the status quo is the, is the best way to go. Uh, Me speaking for myself only.

[00:27:13] Brian: I appreciate those, those debates, but I don’t know that the time is now to have those debates because from my perspective, it certainly seems that not enough people, at least in the United States, take this issue seriously. And so my belief is that instead of having these squabbles within the anti trafficking community over what, what’s the best way to move forward, there should be a focus on just.

[00:27:39] Brian: Getting the general public, the larger public to take this issue seriously. So that’s the, uh, The only, uh, message I guess that I would advocate for is just simply that my sense is that the general public doesn’t take this seriously enough and that that that really needs to be addressed before we begin talking about specific policy options.

[00:28:00] Sandie: And for our listeners, we’ve done a few interviews on this issue. Dr. Donna Hughes, Brad Miles, uh, Lisa Thompson talked to us about the kind of vocabulary we use. Um, her big concern has stayed in my head all the time, because when we start using language like sex worker, it legitimizes this as a job that your kid can grow up and aspire to, and that concerns me, which is why I prefer to look at this from the lens of exploitation, and I don’t have,

[00:28:42] Sandie: An answer to where we need to go. I do believe that our law enforcement teams are beginning to recognize the victimization on a more general across the board, proactive policing agenda, like we talked about in the last episode. So I encourage you as a listener to make this a point to get more knowledge and insight, seek some education, because this is an area where intervention can begin to develop real concrete steps to help women and men leave that kind of exploitation.

[00:29:30] Sandie: Brian, I have two more questions for you. The first one is how long did it take you to write this book?

[00:29:38] Brian: That’s a good question. I mean, it depends on what you mean by, by write this, I, I, um, I spent a couple of years researching domestic sex trafficking when I was working for the paper in Las Vegas. When I then was on my own, I spent roughly four years working on the book involving both research and writing.

[00:29:56] Sandie: And have you changed your mind about anything?

[00:30:01] Brian: Have I changed my mind about anything? Yes, I guess, I guess if I had to point to one particular thing that has changed for me, it’s, it’s simply that this understanding that it’s very difficult to, to talk about relationships, to talk about individuals cases without looking at the specifics of those cases.

[00:30:19] Brian: As I mentioned before, it’s very, it’s very tempting to sort of talk about issues of sex and issues of exploitation and sort of a vague sort of way, but it’s really not helpful. We, we, we need to, to really, if we’re going to talk about, you know, A case, we need to talk about the case in its entirety in the details of the case, you can’t just sort of talk vaguely about, well, you know, my perception is that if I was in that situation, I would handle it this way.

[00:30:45] Brian: Well, you don’t really know because you don’t know all of the specifics of that case. So I guess for me, what’s changed is I’m much less I’m less likely to, to think in sort of broad strokes and to think more specifically about each individual and each individual case that I come across.

[00:31:03] Sandie: Thank you for that. What is your call to action to your readers?

[00:31:07] Brian: Well, I don’t know that I have a call to action. I, you know, I, I, as a journalist, I, I work very hard to, to focus on, on telling the story. And to getting at the truth and letting other people decide what the, what the call to action is. I guess if I did have a call to action, it would be simply to, uh, uh, to engage with this issue in a, in a real and substantive way and to, uh, to not rely on what you’re seeing in, in pop culture and what’s being discussed vaguely in, in, in conversation, but to really understand it yourself and to educate yourself on this issue.

[00:31:40] Sandie: That’s great. And how can they get your book?

[00:31:42] Brian: So the, uh, um, the old catchphrase, you can get this book wherever books are sold actually does apply to Vegas Concierge. Our publisher, Roman and Littlefield has an excellent distribution network. And my understanding is that you can get it, you know, just about any, any bookseller.

[00:31:57] Brian: So of course available online through Amazon and Barnes and Noble and other places like that.

[00:32:03] Sandie: That’s wonderful. And do you have a website?

[00:32:07] Brian: We do, our website is https://www.vegasconciergebook.com/ you can find some summary materials as well as some documents we used to flesh out the research of the book.

[00:32:14] Sandie: All right.

[00:32:14] Sandie: And I did really appreciate the heavy annotations. You’ve been wonderful. Did a great job from a professor’s perspective of making sure people’s voices were documented, and that’s really commendable.

[00:32:33] Brian: I appreciate that. Thank you.

[00:32:35] Sandie:I look forward to your next book, and I have questions. That I’d like you to investigate. Yeah.

[00:32:42] Brian: I’m all, I’m all ears. Thank you

[00:32:42] Sandie: Okay. All right. Well, thank you, Brian, for joining us today and for your dedication to exposing injustice. And for my listeners, I encourage you to follow up. It’s pretty heavy reading, but you will gain a deeper understanding of systems that are behind the scenes. That are not as easy to just say, well, we’ll fix this.

[00:33:12] Sandie: And it’s very nuanced and that comes across. Thank you for listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. Go online if this is your first time and become a subscriber and you will receive the show notes every time an episode drops every two weeks. See you again soon.

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Derek Marsh joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as the two discuss the role of law enforcement in preventing human trafficking.

Derek MarshDerek Marsh is the Associate Director of the Global Center for Women and Justice. He is a retired Deputy Chief of the Westminster Police Department, CA, with over 26 years of service. He co-founded the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force and has been a national and international leader in anti-human trafficking training, investigations, and advocacy. A former Bureau of Justice Assistance Visiting Fellow, Derek has worked extensively to improve labor trafficking investigations and task force collaboration. He holds master’s degrees in Human Behavior and Police Management & Leadership and continues to advance education, outreach, and justice initiatives through GCWJ.

Key Points* It is important to shift law enforcement’s focus from a traditional reactive approach (arresting perpetrators) to a proactive model that prioritizes prevention of human trafficking through holistic strategies. * There is a strong focus on utilizing victim-centered, trauma-informed approaches in law enforcement to provide appropriate support for victims while addressing the dynamics between victims and perpetrators, rather than solely relying on arrests and punitive measures. * There are financial implications of preventative versus reactive responses. Investing in preventive measures could ultimately be more cost-effective than dealing with the long-term consequences of exploitation and incarceration. * Collaboration among various stakeholders—including law enforcement, social services, and community organizations—is necessary to effectively address human trafficking and to support prevention strategies that mitigate risk factors for exploitation.

Resources* Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force * Bureau of Justice Assistance Visiting Fellows * Health and Human Services * gcwj.org * Department of Social Services * Enhanced Collaborative Model

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:14
Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode #334: Law Enforcement’s Role in Preventing Human Trafficking. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Our guest today is Derek Marsh, an old friend and frequent guest on the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. Derek serves as the Associate Director of the Global Center for Women and Justice. He is adjunct faculty in the criminal justice major, a retired deputy chief of Westminster Police Department, and co founded the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force. He’s also been a former Bureau of Justice Assistance Visiting Fellow. Derek has worked extensively to improve labor trafficking investigations and Task Force collaboration. We are so grateful that he’s on our Global Center for Women and Justice team, and we’re eager to dive into this conversation. Derek, welcome.

Derek Marsh 1:42
Thank you for having me again.

Sandra Morgan 1:43
Yeah, it’s kind of hard not to run into you around here.

Derek Marsh 1:47
You being the boss and telling me what to do kind of helps.

Sandra Morgan 1:49
I know I love it, though, when you were the boss, but I get to have that role now, so it’s great. I’m excited because you know how much I love talking about prevention, and usually you’re talking about finding the bad guys, locking them up, and making sure they can’t do what they did ever again. But now, we’re going to look at this from the perspective that law enforcement has a role in preventing human trafficking. Let’s start with that question: How do we change our lens so that we’re more proactive instead of reactive?

Derek Marsh 2:35
It’s a difficult lens to change, because a lot of our work in police work is we’re rewarded financially, or through evaluations, or through the public perception, by reacting to issues quicker. The sooner, the more long term that impact has, the greater we get that positive feedback. Human trafficking, unfortunately, isn’t always one of those situations where you can just pop in, make a quick arrest, refer a victim to a victim services provider, and think you have a win. I guess it is a win in the short term sense, but it’s not a win in the long term sense. After being retired, and thinking about these things, and teaching in the CJ, the Criminal Justice Department, I’ve come to think of prevention as being a much more holistic, complete response, as is just opposed to putting people in jail. Which I enjoy doing, I probably still would enjoy if I had the option, but I don’t know if that’s the actual answer in the long term for eliminating, or at least mitigating significantly, human trafficking.

Sandra Morgan 3:39
Well, we’ve talked about prevention a lot on this task force, my background in pediatric nursing. I want to find how do we teach people to brush their teeth, that equivalent, so that we can end trafficking, really do prevention? And we’ve looked at prevention through the lens of the prevention framework at Health and Human Services, which really focuses on a primary prevention strategy, a public health agenda, and as well as a socio-ecological model. So can you help us see that in the context of criminal justice and law enforcement?

Derek Marsh 4:27
Well, sure. So human trafficking has frequently been referred to as a public health crisis these days, and for good reason, there’s physiological issues, cognitive issues, societal issues, financial, economic issues that result as a result of the crime of human trafficking. Health and Human Services and most of the anti trafficking world these days, in our federal world, focus on the public health model, which has three different levels of prevention, if you will. You have your primary level which focuses on actually what we consider prevention, stopping something before it happens. We have secondary and tertiary, both which deal with reacting to an event, whether the person is a perpetrator or they’re experiencing exploitation or trafficking. The secondary deals with short term, basically arresting someone, putting them in jail, or just immediately identifying someone and offering them assistance. The tertiary deals with long term, so basically, how are you going to make that person stop being a perpetrator? Or how are you going to make sure that person who’s been a victim, survivor, not recidivate anymore, not go back, not get sucked back into the life, or not be further exploited by other people.

Sandra Morgan 5:42
Give me an example, tell me a story that I can understand that.

Derek Marsh 5:48
Well, here’s the thing. I’ll go back to the days of the dinosaurs when I was working on it. I mean, you go to a house, you get a report. Someone says there’s something fishy at this residence. It turns out to be a residential brothel. You go through your surveillance, you get your information about who owns the place. You get license plates, you see people repeatedly.You see if they have any warrants or anything like that. You go to a judge eventually say, “Well, this type of activity appears to be related to either drugs,” because they’re very similar in residential brothels, “or maybe it’spotentially human trafficking,” or some kind of pimping and pandering. So then you convince the judge based on your experience, and you move in, and you do a search warrant, and you find people who are being victimized. You find people who are victimizing them, and you find people who are offering them. From the idea of trying to figure out what’s happening ahead of time, we’re not. What we’re doing is we’re responding basically to a call for service, or to an observation from a citizen. We go there, we deal with the immediate situation, we close down the residential brothel. We identify who the perpetrators are and who the victim survivors are going to be, and in that short secondary prevention aspect, you’re dealing with the issue. We’re actually preventing, in a sense, right? Because that’s how that public health model works with that. On a long term basis, you’re looking to see how long can they be put in jail? Or maybe they can get some kind of restorative or rehabilitative justiceapplied to them so when they come out, they won’t do it again. On the victim/survivor side, you’re saying, how can we help them and provide services, we’re working with them so they don’t go back and fall into that, in this particular example, sex trafficking situation. But it works the same for labor as well. How can we make sure that they have a long-term, sustainable plan where they can get what they need as a person and realize and restore their personal dignity, while the same token not being subject to being victimized, exploited again?

Sandra Morgan 7:47
So what that looks like in a day to day routine, I remember the day when if there was a call out on a brothel, which is illegal commercial sex, everybody got arrested. That model has changed now and there is more intentional concern for the people that are there, that might actually be there under coercion. Now, how does that fit into this scenario as an element of a prevention strategy?

Derek Marsh 8:33
Exactly. You’re talking about like 20-30 years ago, where you go into a residential brothel, or you know wherever you go. You can go online now, same idea, “I need to find someone at a hotel,” the difference is minimal, but basically everyone who’s there is arrested. There’s no consideration for victim-centered, trauma-informed, culturally-aware, all those issues we now deal with, with human trafficking. From that non preventative at all, just strictly enforcement, deterrent, kind of, capacity mindset, you move into more of a reactive prevention sense that, “Hey, I see an issue. We’re going to address it. We’re victim-centered, trauma-informed, so we’re not going to try to trigger our folks,” I know that’s not the word we use, but we’re not going to try to trigger them. We’re not going to try to further traumatize them. We’re going to treat them as victim survivors, make sure they have agency in this process, we’re not going to put handcuffs on if we can avoid it, all those other things. Whereas we’re still arresting the perpetrators and keeping them separate. From the old school way of just taking them all to jail and we’ll sort them out there, to understanding there’s a victim/perpetrator dynamic that we need to be aware of, and that they’re not just victims and we’re not there to save them, we’re there to help liberate them so they can come to better terms and restore their dignity, and understand that we need collaborative effort to make that happen. The police aren’t solo. So that’s the evolution that we’re talking about when it comes to prevention. What the next level of evolution would be, would be to actually prevent it from ever happening at all, if that makes sense. You have, according to the public health model, your primary prevention is what you’re focusing on. You really want to, in the long run, create a space for people where they never get exploited, where they never feel they have to exploit others to get ahead, so that these people can live without having to go through this sexual trauma, the trauma of commercial labor, the idea of being exploited by people for financial ends, the idea of exploiting others for financial ends, that there are other alternatives that are more viable. That’s where the long-term end goal, if you’re asking me about anti trafficking, is to create a planet where that doesn’t occur.

Sandra Morgan 10:52
So when we’re talking about prevention, then, we can imagine a continuum. We missed it, we didn’t teach them how to brush their teeth when they were one year old, and now they’re already in the midst of decay. They’ve been exploited. Our prevention is preventing further exploitation.

Derek Marsh 11:18
Right, it’s always public health. Let’s look at a health example. You catch somebody and they have a cold, or a disease, or something like that. You break your arm? Okay, well that happened. We’re going to fix that arm, we’re going to reset it, we’re going to do what we need to do. It’ll be good as new. But they still broke their arm. You didn’t stop them from breaking their arm, or flu or whatever. But you could have avoided that through wearing a mask, washing your hands more frequently, or other things like that. You probably could have but again, we’re reacting to the public health world. I’m not saying that’s everything that public health does, but a lot of times it becomes reactive. What I’m saying is here, while we are very good and technically we are doing prevention by arresting people, referring them to resources, both short and long term, and that’s important, I’m not minimizing it. I’m saying it would also be good to focus on the third, the initial, the primary aspect of prevention, which is never have it happen at all. But these are often dealing with bigger issues, like poverty, like educational opportunity, like medical health access, like job opportunities, all those things that police aren’t normally associated with handling, which I agree with. However, you’re also in areas where you have to feel safe and secure, like your neighborhoods or your communities or your inner cities, and that is something police can partner with and help in an element of creating a safer, more secure environment that minimizes those factors that can promote the possibility of people being at risk of being exploited, or exploiting others because they feel they have no other options in their world.

Sandra Morgan 12:59
So when I, as a nurse, approach something like this. I’m looking how to identify, how to find the protective factors. But in criminal justice, you have a model called Sarah. How does Sarah help you?

Derek Marsh 13:18
In a public health world, there’s like four different levels, roughly. I’m taking this from the Health and Human Services Anti- Trafficking Framework, but they’re right. I’ve read others, and they’re very similar. You start with finding a problem, you want to monitor it. Then you want to ID your risk, maybe come up with some protective factors that would keep you from doing it. You develop and test some preventative strategies, and in the end, you walk away saying, “Okay, well, we’re going to adopt this worldwide and make it stop.” Well the criminal justice world does the same kind of thing, they call it problem oriented policing. Basically they have what they call the ceremony.

Sandra Morgan 13:54
They call it what?

Derek Marsh 13:55
Problem oriented policing. They identify an issue. Initially they survey something, they go, “Okay, well, we’re going to survey an issue,” let’s say burglaries or auto thefts, “and we’re going to look at and analyze this area, and figure out what’s going on.” So first, you’re going to survey it and see if it’s really a problem. Next, you’re going to analyze issues in your city, maybe there’s a particular parking lot, or maybe the mall, where a lot of people park, that’s where they’re losing their catalytic converters, or whatever the case may be. Then you’re going to find out, what are the MOS, how are people perpetrating these steps? At what times? How many people are involved? Are people ever seeing it happen? Those types of things. What kind of cars are being targeted? Then you’re going to say, “Okay, well, I want to respond a certain way.” As you’re patrolling a mall or you’re patrolling a larger parking lot space, then you can say, “Okay, well, I’m looking for this kind of car at this time of the day. Those seem to be the target areas by these people to focus on,” the perpetrators of it. At that point, you do a response for, let’s say, a month, and then you look at your monthly response, see how many people you’ve arrested or questioned, and does it lower the overall crime rate that’s reported there? Successful, not successful, and you go on to repeat the Sarah process again. Same thing that’s happening with public health, we just made it a little bit more simple for patrol officers and for people that are not trying to be researchers, they’re trying to address particular issues. So that’s the difference.

Sandra Morgan 15:18
Okay, so this actually changes my frame of reference in my collaboration with my local law enforcement partners. Because I think in my mind, and I kind of feel like some of my listeners may identify with me, I think when I show up as the victim service providers, that you’re off duty now. You’re not helping with prevention anymore. I showed up, I’m taking care of this, but this makes it sound to me, more like you’re actively creating a strategy for that specific call out, when it gets repeated, that is going to also have the opportunity for widespread adoption, just like in the HHS plan.

Derek Marsh 16:14
Sure, there are lots of programs in police work that you started, and for instance, even the Sarah if you think of it as a system of approach, or crime analysis, or things like that, where people started doing it, seeing the system works. It does work, whether you call it hotspot policing, whatever you want to call it, and you identify those issues that seem to be perpetuating and seem to be true issues in your particular community, and then you work on it. But again, it starts off as a reactive because you’re for things that are already happening, and then you try to figure out a strategy or process where you can, by doing a normal patrol, or by doing focus patrols, you can keep it from happening in the future. It’s easy to metric for police because we’re measuring the number of, let’s say, catalytic converter thefts. You know what it was six months ago or for the last six months, then you implement your program for three months, and you compare the numbers. Did it go down? Did it not go down? Or did it go down here but it went up in another part of the city? Prevention for human trafficking is that much harder to do, because while we are addressing on the secondary and tertiary ways of the immediate rest and identification of a potential victim survivor, giving them the care they need, and addressing the criminal justice consequences of perpetrating that crime. Are we really able to go back now and find issues that we can address, and mitigate those factors that make people vulnerable? That’s harder to measure, because how do I measure someone not being a victim? Especially when we went around telling everybody, “Hey, we’re not counting well to begin with.” We’re only hitting the tip of the iceberg, right? Maybe we only had two reports, and now, after you implement a program, you have only two reports. But think about it, maybe there were five reports you would have had, as opposed to the two reports, if you hadn’t done what you were doing. For instance, people being recruited outside of high schools. Why not stick a cop car ,or person out there, or a collaborative partner, whatever, to help make sure that those people don’t get to interact? All the underlying things, the things that are behind the scenes, behind the curtain, are those being stopped? You want to hope so, but you don’t know until later on, until you’re able to take an entire look at the history of how it’s working.

Sandra Morgan 18:23
Don’t we have to consider how much that’s going to cost, to have somebody parked outside a high school every day at three o’clock when the bell rings?

Derek Marsh 18:31
Sure. We’re paying for people to be there anyway, though. You’re paying for law enforcement to be there. Now, they have to respond to calls for service, and so you’re looking at special programs. But what’s the cost of treating someone who’s a victim of human trafficking? What’s the psychological cost? It’s very difficult to put a number on. What’s their impact, as far as their ability to work in our society? What’s the cost of someone you arrest who’s exploiting people? How much do we pay for them in prison? I think the last numbers I’d seen were anywhere from 35 to $55,000 a year, to house and feed somebody in jail, in prison. So that’s a lot of money. The idea here is that if you get a school resource officer, for instance, and then have them be at the school and be aware of these things, and just take their time when school ends, instead of hanging out in an office space or whatever, go outside and just walk outside the school, see who interacting with the students.

Sandra Morgan 19:22
If we start looking at primary prevention, because you want us to measure things. Measuring victims isn’t working very well because we can only measure what we find, and that’s very spotty, depends on resources for recovery, who has a grant to pay salaries, those kinds of funding issues. So if we look at the cost of prevention over the cost of deterrence, by putting somebody in jail, or the cost of prevention compared to the cost of restoration, then maybe we start placing higher value on prevention strategies. Because in our 5 P model, prevention typically does not get as well funded.

Derek Marsh 20:21
Again, as we’re thinking of prevention in the 5 P model, or as we think about it from the federal level, even while HHS has come up with this three-level, public health model of prevention, again, technically, we are doing prevention by funding police and funding social service providers to handle situations that are already occurring. To intervene and help people stop, or help liberate them from their situation so they can get better care and self care, to arrest perpetrators or people pursuing those types of trafficking activities. From a secondary and tertiary perspective, they are funding prevention. But it’s that difficult to measure, because we’re so obsessed with measurement and making sure we get it right, which is important, but difficult to measure, quantitative way of saying, “Hey, how do I show that my efforts prior to that, my community outreach efforts, my environmental design efforts, where I’m trying to create better lighted neighborhoods, neighborhood watch, things like that, help actually prevent people from being victimized or susceptible to financial poverty issues, to being susceptible to poor schooling?” Those are things that you have to have partnerships, because it’s not criminal justice anymore, it’s partnerships with other people, other groups in the community, other federal groups, local groups, that can help mitigate and change those issues.

Sandra Morgan 21:45
You’re sliding into the socioecological model, and that feels overwhelming to address. How do we break it down so that everyday people, like me, can keep it all organized in my thinking?

Derek Marsh 22:05
I would say that if you’re going to break it down, or you’re going to look at these different elements or factors, we’ve known the Steven model, for instance, that you and I have developed. You look at what Steven stands for; sociocultural, then you have T for technological issues online. There’s a lot of issues with those, access and things like that. You have ecological, you have your economic, you have your political, you have your historical, and when you put all these things together, then you can look for their connectivity, their issues, how people are networking together, the collaborations, and you come up with strategies and tactics on how to address those issues. We have the Steven which is the same as their socioecological model, and that’s fine in some ways, but again, on a line level, cop on the street, ‘how do I do prevention?,’ it doesn’t help. Because they don’t have that skill set. Their job is to enforce laws to make sure people are safe and secure. How do you do that day to day? You do it through programs. We did a program once where we were called out to ahousehold where gang activity was occurring, or to a place where drug activity was occurring, or even domestic violence, we would actually refer the kids who were experiencing this, through observation, hopefully not directly through abuse, to schools. We would have a whole program set up for them to show that they could work together with the police, and with educational groups, and with nonprofit organizations, to show there’s much more to life than just watching their parents, or the people in their homes, or their brothers or sisters or whoever, abuse each other, exploit each other, take advantage of each other. We gave them a more positive example, if you will. Those things are possible, it takes some finances to back them up, but we put a lot of money into arresting people, and we put a lot of money into treating people. And guess what? I think treating people and arresting people are important things to do, but I also think that you can’t arrest your way out of the crime. We talked to John Cotton Richmond, he said that multiple times. I don’t think you’re going to, in a way, you can help people get better from a psychological, emotional, cognitive perspective, and that’s important to do, but I think not ever having them experience those types of issues is way better. From a financial perspective, and also from a personal perspective, from a societal perspective, probably just a lot more healthy people walking around.

Sandra Morgan 24:28
Does this then support the enhanced collaborative model for task forces?

Derek Marsh 24:35
100%. I mean prevention was like, I look at the original three: prevention, protection, prosecution, and in a sense, those are the three groups, or even one of those is people, but three activities that are really at the heart of anti trafficking. We look at prevention, we’re looking at the same things we always have before. You want to identify what’s going on, you want to come up with solutions, you want to make sure that you can intervene, to make sure people don’t even get involved. If that doesn’t work, then you fall back on your people who need support for what has occurred to them already, or what they are doing to others. And that’s okay, it’s a necessary part of the entire system, but I would hope that as we get more mature, and as we’ve been doing this now, it started in 2000 and we’re in 2024, so 24 years down the line, we could keep putting a lot of money into arresting people and treating people, and those are important things to do, and I’m not minimizing the importance of it, but I think an equal, and if not, greater, amount of money could just be put into programs or research that can help us identify how you mitigate these factors in society, in individuals, in communities, that can create an opportunity for people not to have to experience any of that at all.

Sandra Morgan 25:48
Well, and no one can have the attitude that, “My particular role in this process is the key piece to this.” I remember when we did a study abroad with our students here from Vanguard in Romania, and we were invited to do a training for all the domestic violence police sergeants, I’m not sure about…

Derek Marsh 26:18
In Bucharest.

Sandra Morgan 26:19
Yeah, in Bucharest, and they wanted to understand how to do a better job of intervening in domestic violence, and learn to apply that in the work on anti sex trafficking. What we discovered, I still remember trying to answer some questions, because in our presentation, we had the experience of we had a list of people to call when we had something happening. They didn’t have a number to call for somebody to show up, and so the only place to take the victim was to the police station, and that, to me, sounds like a criminal justice adjustment that requires that Enhanced Collaborative Model, and with this socioecological prevention strategy, we start integrating that in all five P’s, instead of only having it in the first P.

Derek Marsh 27:29
I agree, and I think that you have to understand the historical context. We went in there with the great intention of helping them understand anti trafficking. Within five minutes of that presentation, they wanted to talk about domestic violence, because for them, that was the more immediate issue that led to people potentially being exploited and maybe even being pimped or pandered. We switched gears right away. We’re like, okay, that’s what you need to talk about, and that’s what we’re going to talk about. We had two hours of a great training with a room full of cops in Bucharest, to understand what it took to address domestic violence, which, again, is a type of exploitation, a type of physical, powerful exploitation, where you have victims and you have perpetrator. It is an element, in many cases, of some human trafficking situations as well. So mission accomplished, we worked on anti trafficking, but we understand the historical context. They had just gotten the idea of a restraining order, which was brand new to them. They were just starting to be allowed to actually go into someone’s home if there was a report of domestic violence, as opposed to standing outside the door and hearing things without being able to do anything about it. Those were issues that they were working through, and that mindset was changing.

Sandra Morgan 28:39
And the other thing that happened, because we’ve got to tell you guys the rest of the story, is the nonprofit that we were working with suddenly realized that they could help. They created a contact card that these police officers could have in their cargo pants when they needed to reach out for victim services in one of those situations. They had a community partner so they could do this enhanced collaborative model. It was a game changer.

Derek Marsh 29:13
Sure, and again, the local line level officers aren’t usually going to be able to recognize who those players are, who those NGOs are, who those service providers are. They may have a General Department, like Department of Social Services, but they’re not going to be able to say, how can we help if we just want to get independent help, short of the Department of Social Services. Because nobody wants to be on the radar in a federal, or municipal, or city sense. They can go to get individual help without making it aware to their partner ,if they’re being abused or whatever. The idea being that the whole collaboration makes sense. Again, instead of having to get a call for service, or experience excessive or any kind of domestic violence, those cars can potentially save people, not just people there, but if they’re shared out, they can share it with people who might be a victim, but realize there are other ways that they can handle those issues.

Sandra Morgan 30:06
Derek, you and I have worked together for a very long time, 20 years. Wow.

Derek Marsh 30:13
Sorry.

Sandra Morgan 30:14
I’ve changed my mind on a few things, especially when it comes to working with police officers, federal agents, investigating. What have you changed your mind about?

Derek Marsh 30:30
I would say, definitely the importance of the victim-centered, trauma-informed approach. I think I had that, to some degree more esoterically, like theoretically, it made sense, but seeing it on the ground helped me just bring it into my heart. But also the idea that it’s great to arrest people, again, love doing it. I know it sounds bad but there’s certain closure to taking somebody who’s abusing somebody and putting them in jail. However, much better in the long run, I think much better for the people involved, that they never get in those situations before. I’ve kind of lost my cop hat to some degree, after being retired as long as I have, and seeing that prevention and understanding that people, if we can keep them from even being exploited or exploiting others, is a much more long term, societally comprehensive solution than just throwing on some handcuffs and throwing them into a jail cell. Liberating a person who’s been exploited and providing them with services, but them having to struggle with those issues and the trauma for the rest of their lives.

Sandra Morgan 31:34
Yet I still remember you teaching me that we can’t have tree huggers only, and I was the resident tree hugger, at a scene, because it wasn’t safe. If you could just tell me again, teach me again why we do have to have cops, police officers who are there for the public safety, and why that’s important for the victim as well as the rest of us in the room.

Derek Marsh 32:13
Yeah, I’m perilously close to hugging trees when I talk like I’m talking.

Sandra Morgan 32:16
I know, oh my gosh.

Derek Marsh 32:18
It’s killing me, I see the tree. It’s close, I can almost reach it. But the reality is that police serve a function. I think we’ve seen our lane. The idea here that we’re trying to enforce laws, but we’re also trying to keep communities safe. There needs to be a line. And then people, as a community, draw that line themselves, awesome. That’s what it should be, really. But if they can’t, or they won’t, then there needs to be other people, like ourselves, police, to go up and say, “This is the line, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.” If you cross that line from a criminal perspective, there are consequences, accountability. But also if you’re a person who’s being victimized in a crime, then you need someone there to be able to say, “Look, I can take you out of this space when you’re not thinking clearly yourself, when you’re in a horrible situation, when mentally and habitually you’re just used to that kind of experience, and you think it’s normalized, then you need someone to help liberate you from that, or a group to help liberate from that.” Not that we’re riding white horses or we’re knights, or that you can’t liberate yourself, I get all that. But sometimes we all have weak moments, or we have times in our lives where having somebody there to support you and to offer you the options, is important. I think that’s where police fit in. I would be a horrible person to provide long term counseling. Definitely not, too many trees around, I’ll get confused. But I mean, can I identify someone who haspotential challenges and needs some help? 100%. Then I can direct them to people who are experienced, have that training and education, to give them the best opportunity to engage in a way that they can help heal themselves and make that informed decision. Then I win too. Not only do I get somebody into handcuffs, if that’s what’s needed, but I also have somebody who has been liberated from not just physical handcuffs maybe, but also from a psychological exploitation and the handcuffs that people put upon them through coercion, force, and other ways of manipulating others.

Sandra Morgan 34:24
That’s good. That’s so good. To close out this episode, Derek Marsh runs our anti human trafficking certificate program. Derek, would you tell our listeners how to access that and what the breadth of it is.

Derek Marsh 34:44
We have an anti human trafficking certificate program. It works for both professional level folks and for people who want to do academic as well. The professional costs are much less than the academic because you don’t get units. However, we have 13 different courses. We’re always adjusting them for current activities and things that are going on in the world. We have people who teach who are active in the field, or have been in the field, have actually worked in anti trafficking before, so it can help in a mentor perspective. They are eight weeks, and if you do four courses, the Basic Human Trafficking Overall View, the Ethics and Human Trafficking are the core, if you will, required courses. Then we have other courses, CSEC, actually Prevention is one of the courses I’m teaching right now. There’s Sex Trafficking, Labor Trafficking, Immigration Issues. We have a bunch of different courses that, depending on where your bent is and where you want to look at, can work. Faith Based and Faith Based Work With Human Trafficking, reflected on by your book that you wrote with your partner. Again, the idea here is to make people more informed about what trafficking is about. You take the courses, you get a certificate saying that you’ve been through what we’re doing and we’re providing. I think in the end, being more informed at that level, whether you’re going to be a police officer or a social worker, you can work at a church or you can work in a business. You can work in a medical facility, it doesn’t matter, all of us can apply some of that information, some of those techniques and strategies where you work, to help people understand what’s going on and maybe intervene in those situations as they go.

Sandra Morgan 36:20
Where are you going to find that?

Derek Marsh 36:22
You’re going to find it online. You just look under vanguard.edu, and we’re there. If you go to our gcwj.org, you can find that information there, and there’s links there to go to Vanguard. It’s a very straightforward process. You don’t have to have a degree to get in the program. You have to be pursuing a degree to get in the program, though, of course, you can get units. All those are options you can do. In fact, I’ve been very blessed in a sense, that a lot of times when people look for anti trafficking education, we populate on the first page in Google, which I have no idea how that worked out, but great for us, and hopefully great for you if you’re able to take advantage of it.

Sandra Morgan 36:57
We love being a resource, because we do believe education is key to prevention. Derek, thank you so much for helping out today on episode #334.

Derek Marsh 37:12
Thank you for having me.

Sandra Morgan 37:14
Listeners, we want you to know that in the show notes there will be links to all the things Derek and I talked about. If you have more questions, you can go to feedback and send those questions in. Your next step, if you’re not already a subscriber, is to go over to endinghumantrafficking.org and sign up. You’ll get a newsletter every two weeks, telling you that a new episode is dropped with information about what was in that episode. Follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram and tell your friends to join us as we study the issues so we can be a voice and make a difference in ending human trafficking.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Josie Heyano as the two discuss the importance of bridging communities to prevent human trafficking.

Josie HeyanoJosie Heyano, LMSW, is a Deg Xinag Athabascan advocate from Alaska, focused on creating holistic and decolonized practices to serve Alaska Native and Indigenous communities impacted by human trafficking. With extensive experience supporting youth facing homelessness, exploitation, and trafficking, she founded Signify Consulting, LLC, to further her collaboration in anti-trafficking work across Alaska. Josie is a Presidentially appointed member of the U.S. Advisory Council on Human Trafficking, advising federal policy, and in 2023, she received the FBI Director’s Community Leadership Award for her contributions to prevention and intervention in Alaska. Her work honors her great aunt Linda Miller and others still awaiting justice.

Key Points* Traditional introductions are important as they reflect relationships and community ties, highlighting accountability and cultural identity. * Serving on the U.S. Advisory Council on Human Trafficking, Josie highlights the importance of humility and listening to voices within her community that are often unheard. She cites a recent visit by the council to Alaska as an opportunity to humanize the data and issues surrounding human trafficking. * Human trafficking is a symptom of broader systemic issues, such as domestic violence, homelessness, and mental health crises. There is a need for a holistic approach that addresses these interconnected challenges within Indigenous communities. * The Alaska Human Trafficking Data Needs Assessment revealed gaps in data and understanding regarding trafficking. Community relationships and collaboration across different sectors (service providers, law enforcement, academia) are necessary to improve data collection and response strategies. * Cultural practices and community care can serve as protective factors against human trafficking. It is necessary to integrate traditional values and practices into prevention efforts, focusing on unconditional care, relationship building, and addressing basic community needs. * A preventative approach that extends beyond immediate trafficking interventions includes ensuring that community members have access to essential resources, support systems, and a sense of belonging from birth, thus preventing vulnerability to trafficking in the first place. Active, compassionate engagement with community members fosters safety and well-being.

Resources* U.S. Advisory Council on Human Trafficking * FBI Director’s Community Leadership Award * 277: Navajo Nation Interview, with First Lady Phefelia Nez * Prevention Now * Data For Indigenous Justice * Missing and Murdered Indigenous Girls Report * Ride my Road * Not Invisible Act Commission Report * Federal Indian Boarding Schools Report * ACF MMIP Action Plan * Alaska Native Justice Center * Signify Consulting

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:14
Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode #333: Bridging Communities: Indigenous Approaches to Combating Human Trafficking. This is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference. Our guest today is Josie Heyano. Josie is a presidentially appointed member of the U.S. Advisory Council on Human Trafficking, advising federal policy. In 2023 she received the FBI Director’s Community Leadership Award for her contributions to prevention and intervention in Alaska. Her work honors her great aunt, Linda Miller and others still awaiting justice. I’m so grateful for you to be here with us today, Josie, and I’d like to start with a traditional introduction please.

Josie Heyano 1:30
Thank you, Sandra, good morning. Ade’ yixudz everyone. My name is Josie Heyano. I am Deg Xinag Athabascan. My mother’s family is from the village of Tanana on the Yukon River. My mother is Naina Heyano. My paternal grandparents are the late Paul and Mary Star and Alfred Miller of Anvik. My father is David Heyano from the village of Ekuk in Bristol Bay. And my paternal grandparents are the late Pete and Rosa Heyano, also of Ekuk village. It’s great to be here with you today.

Sandra Morgan 2:06
Thank you. And for some of our listeners, would you please give us a little background on the traditional introductions?

Josie Heyano 2:19
Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate you giving space for that introduction. It’s a really important part of how I show up, because that’s how I was taught to introduce myself. You’re taught to introduce yourself to explain your relationships, and part of that is culturally, our relationships are how we exist in the world, who we are, how we want to be seen. When I tell you that my grandmother is Mary Star and my grandpa is Alfred Miller, and I tell you about Pete and Rosa Heyano, that means that I show up to this conversation as a representation of them, and that when I introduce myself for people listening to me, they can know who my family is and know where I come from. A piece of that is accountability too, right? I always think people in the audience know my family, know the communities I come from, and it’s really important for me to speak with integrity and to speak clearly and to speak with pride. More importantly for me, is throughout my professional career, you get degrees and letters, and things like that, but the more important thing is not titles that I hold, but who I am and how I came to be here.

Sandra Morgan 3:34
Let’s talk about your degrees and your titles in addition to this, because that is also how you show up.

Josie Heyano 3:42
Yeah, of course. I’ve been very fortunate to be able to pursue some really wonderful academic channels. I am a graduate of the University of Alaska Fairbanks. They have an incredible social work program. I am, first and foremost, academically, a social worker. I practice social work here in Alaska, and I got my masters at the University of Kentucky. I just finished up my clinical hours, so I will shortly be sitting for my licensing exam to be able to be a licensed clinical social worker. I think that’s about it for degrees.

Sandra Morgan 4:23
Oh my goodness. Well, you’re definitely an amazing leader now in this space, and you’re serving at the highest level in our nation. I’m curious what that means to you in the context of how you just shared about showing up.

Josie Heyano 4:48
I think serving at the level of the U.S. Advisory Council has meant having a tremendous amount of humility. Paying attention to the voices in my community that maybe haven’t been heard, to the topics and the issues that haven’t had the attention that they need, and doing my best to voice those, and to bring education, to bring awareness, to help people understand some of the issues facing my community. We were very privileged this year, the entire U.S. Advisory Council on Human Trafficking actually came to Alaska with my first my persuasion. They got to walk on the streets downtown, and they got to be a part of our community and meet the people who live these experiences here. That was a really wonderful opportunity. But I think in my role in the advisory council that was my job, was to bring the members here, have them meet the people that we write about, and to bring a humanness to this work too, and remind us that we are doing really high level federal work. Behind some of those numbers and some of that research, and some of the data, are people and experiences, and that’s been a really beautiful part of being a part of the council.

Sandra Morgan 6:10
My experience, and you may have listened, I interviewed Phefelia Nez, who was leading this effort with the Navajo Nation, and we have partnered. We’ve had conversations about some of the larger systemic issues, missing and murdered Indigenous women, and Human trafficking as maybe an umbrella or a symptom. How do you see that?

Josie Heyano 6:13
Yeah, I definitely see it as a symptom. I think in my federal work, I’ve gotten to have a lot more conversations with leaders and matriarchs across the country who are leading this work in their community. I do think that human trafficking, I do look at it as a symptom. I appreciate you bringing up the missing murdered indigenous relatives conversation, because most of my work has been centered on we can’t talk about human trafficking and then talk about our missing, murdered indigenous relatives crisis. These are the conversations that we need to have together, and it is the conversation that needs to include domestic violence. It needs to include our relatives who are houseless. It needs to include mental health services, substance use services. It needs to include harm reduction. It’s really having a more holistic conversation about human trafficking, so that’s been primarily where I focused my work locally in the community, is helping to bridge that conversation and be able to talk about these issues together.

Sandra Morgan 7:53
One of the things that intrigued me as I read more about your work is you did a fellowship with prevention now, and out of that, you co-created the Alaska Human Trafficking Data Needs Assessment, which seems to fit or have an overlay with your comments just now, with all of these aspects systemically. Can you tell me about that?

Josie Heyano 8:23
I was so excited to talk about that today. My good friend Kristen Harris, CEO and founder of Prevention Now, I had actually just reached out to her as a college intern looking for practicum placement, and said, “Hey, I’m living in Alaska, and I’m struggling,” because I was working direct service, and I was kind of at the point in a person’s life where they had already experienced trafficking, and it was becoming really prominent to me that we didn’t have a lot of prevention, and we weren’t having a lot of conversations in our communities about what trafficking is. So Kristen, being the amazing human being she is, just took me under her wing and allowed me to just research and have the resources with her. That Data Needs Assessment was actually a result of; we first thought we would gather the data that existed to start to see what some of the regional factors were that were causing trafficking, and that we were going to use Kristen’s AI model to find that out. What we realized was: there wasn’t data, or at least there wasn’t data that made sense. There was data that had a lot of different definitions of trafficking. There was data with a lot of different types of people collecting those data, and there was a lot of data that wasn’t talking to each other, so there was duplicated data. There was no real way to get a clear picture of what’s the understanding. And when we started talking to people about data, the other thing that was really interesting about this project is we also got a weariness. We’re talking to direct service providers, and law enforcement, and educators, and healthcare workers who are very often underfunded and under resourced. Then we bring up the data question, which translates to the notes that you didn’t do, or the extra box to check. The Data Needs Assessment really transformed into not only what are you using to track human trafficking related data, but how do you feel about data? How does data impact your work? How do you value or see data as important in this conversation? I think that really opened up a different type of conversation, which was that people did value data and were simultaneously overwhelmed by it, and didn’t necessarily see it as helpful to them in their role. When we started the Human Trafficking Data Summit and we partnered with Data for Indigenous Justice, hopefully we can provide a link to their website, they are a local, nonprofit organization. My good friend Aqpik founded that one as well, and that’s all about reclaiming indigenous data, and they actually curated the first Alaska list of Missing, Murdered and Indigenous Relatives. One thing I’ll add about that too, is the first report that Data for Indigenous Justice released, there were 229 names curated in that report of missing relatives, which is the number of tribes that we have here in Alaska. It was a really powerful number.

Sandra Morgan 11:23
Wow.

Josie Heyano 11:24
But the data Summit, really, above all else, became kind of a gathering of women. This is kind of a strange way to take this conversation, but when I think back on the data summit and how that came to be, we also partnered with ride my road. So my friend Lauren came, has strong connections in Alaska. She came and volunteered her time, and it was a bunch of women who said, “We recognize this is a problem in the community. What are we going to do? How do we start the conversation?” And we recognized that in order to start having this conversation, we needed to have relationship with each other. We needed to have relationship with the people in the work, and this was kind of right after COVID, too. We also recognized, we need to bring people together again, and so we did. We had a very small event. Our very first Human Trafficking Data Summit was in a small community area, and it was wonderful. We had people from multi disciplines come and show up and be a part of the conversation. More importantly, though, I think we just spent time with each other. We got to know each other, we got to know each other’s work, and we invested in the relationships that we had with each other. I think that’s what has developed, for me, into a larger impact, is that we didn’t just come to talk about data, we came to actually care about the work that we were all doing and show up for each other.

Sandra Morgan 12:54
I think we’re moving into a space where we can shift the conversation, shift the narrative from, “Here are all the bad things happening, here’s the vulnerability,” to some kind of approach, strategic plan for how we’re going to do prevention and protect our community. Can you speak to that?

Josie Heyano 13:28
I can definitely speak to that. One of the things that I’m really excited about is just, especially with my my federal platform, getting to meet people across the country. There is so much being done in tribal communities right now that really focuses on our culture, and our culture as a prevention and as a protective factor. I think even if you look in this last four years, what the Biden-Harris administration has done to emphasize work on Missing, Murdered Indigenous People, and to really address that crisis. We’ve seen the Not Invisible Act Commission Report.We’ve seen the the Federal Boarding School Report. We’ve seen all of these reports that are really putting data and information to the things that we have known in our communities for a long time, and so through that we’ve also seen a lot of focus on culture. A lot of focus on combating human trafficking through the lens of ‘we actually already know how to do this,’ and how we know how to do this is caring for our community. And so many people say it better than I do, so many other indigenous leaders across the nation. If we’re going to have the human trafficking conversation, if we’re going to show up and care about combating human trafficking, we have to show up and care about each other. We have to care about every member of our community. We have to have spaces for people to be fed. We have to have spaces for people to be warm, and clothed, and cared for. Ultimately, we have to have spaces for people to experience connection, to be in relationship with each other, and to know that they are valued, and they’re important, and sacred. I think that’s what makes me the most excited right now, is there are so many programs across the country, and more needed here in Alaska, I’ll say, but that are starting to emphasize that the way that we combat human trafficking doesn’t have to look like the checklist that other people, in other places are using. It can actually be the way that we’ve always addressed harm, which is to just unconditionally care for people. There’s so much beauty in that, there’s so much ease when you take the step back and say, “Human trafficking isn’t this complex, unapproachable topic that we don’t know what to do with. Actually, as Native people we do know, inherently, how to care for and protect everyone in our community.” I think seeing the programs across the country that are emerging, that are focusing on culture as the protective factor, I’m thinking about programs in the lower 48 where there are naming ceremonies for trafficking survivors, where they get to be named by their community and really hold the power of that name and learn what that means. I’m thinking of programs where there are sweat lodges, there are ceremony incorporated into the healing process, and the recognition that that might not be right for everybody, so having nuance within that to make sure that we can help whoever is impacted by harm in the best way possible. I think in the Alaska version of this, I’m better at talking about Alaska and my community, that looked like, when I was working direct care, there was kind of this, “Here’s a list of things to do for a trafficking survivor,” and I used to, probably to people’s dismay, throw that list out the window, because it was ridiculous. What I actually needed to do was to sit and have tea. What I actually needed to do sometimes was to just sit, and sometimes just to say, “My door is always open and I see you, and you can be here anytime that you want,” and to have those non transactional relationships, and to just see people and to show up and care about them unconditionally. I think when I think of culture, that’s what I think of, that piece there, where there is no transaction in our relationship. I accept you and respect you and care for you, because you are you, and that’s a really important piece of this conversation.

Sandra Morgan 17:50
Integrating those traditional values and practices in the healing and restoration, I keep going back to, because I find it so amazing, the Alaska Human Trafficking Data Needs Assessment. Now, how do you take that and leverage it in your comment earlier about accountability?

Josie Heyano 18:19
Actually, the Alaska Native Justice Center here in town, is getting ready with a new Data Needs Assessment that I’m excited to see come out, kind of a chapter two of this. But what we did with that Data Needs Assessment was we had another summit, and this one was bigger, and this one was fantastic. We had, well they were both fantastic, last- oh my goodness, that was actually this Spring, I think. Time is so strange lately. We had the Data Summit again this Spring, we had it at the local library, and we had so many more participants, we had so many more workshops and speakers. This time, we really said, “Okay, here’s what we know is missing, how are we going to address these things?” We brought in people from academia, and we said, “Who are the researchers? Who is in programs right now and you’re looking for a thesis? Who needs a question to be asked to our community?” Here are now the service providers who have a problem. Let’s pair the service providers and the researchers together in the same room so that they can actually understand, so that the researchers aren’t just asking the question they think needs to be asked, they’re hearing from the service providers, “Here’s where the gap is.” Then we took the law enforcement and Department of Law, and prosecutors in the room and we said, what is it that you’re struggling to prosecute? What is it that you’re struggling to see and understand? And we took those service providers, and we took those people with lived experience, and we put them in a room to say, ‘where are the gaps?’ Where might someone not want to tell you what their story is because of how some of these laws work? And so we really asked people to come together and to be solution focused in this, and to say, “Hey, from what we know from the data, the data is not great. And why is that?” Well, the biggest reason was that we’re not talking to each other. We’re kind of creating our own data systems, our own methods of combating human trafficking in a really siloed way, which was not unique. I think we’ve seen that across the country, but I think what was really unique about the Needs Assessment leading to the Data Summit is that we really intentionally said, “We’re not going to set up zoom meetings. We’re not going to just continue to be in groups or task force, or whatever you want to call them, we’re actually going to get together in a room, and we’re going to try to solve a few problems while we’re there together.” I think what came out of that was really deep, meaningful relationships and groups of people who historically are not in the same room together, or who have maybe feared being in the same room together. We created safe places where people could come and have the conversations, because we all had a mutual interest, we all had a mutual goal, and because of that, we were able to have conversations with each other that we hadn’t had before.

Sandra Morgan 21:17
I am just so inspired and encouraged by your vision for the future of integrating your own cultural practices with decades of challenges that we’re all facing in this movement. I’ve been in it a really long time, so listening to you is extremely encouraging for me, and I’m going to send this interview to some of my other friends who are also, the word you used at the beginning is weary. We need your generation, Josie, to bring all of your excitement, your energy, and your big questions. I also wanted to work into our conversation a little bit about Savannah’s Act and how that may have influenced the conversation in indigenous communities. Can you take just a couple minutes to speak to that?

Josie Heyano 22:28
It’s a little early, and I don’t have a lot of the dates and facts off the top of my head, but I think most impactful to me coming out of Savannah’s Act was the Not Invisible Act Commission. Most impactful for that, for me, were the listening sessions. Part of the Not Invisible Act Commission’s work in their first report, was going to communities and listening. I think that goes back to the conversation we were just having about the Data Summit, which was really what that was about, right? We need to listen to each other, we need to listen to the stories being told, and we need to understand from those stories, not showing up with our bias, or our anger, or our weariness, but to show up and hear each other. That was really impactful for me. That was actually one of the first times that I spoke or addressed anyone on a federal level about what was happening in my community, and I got to speak for the very first time at a federal level, I got to sit there and say, “Our Alaska Native youth are dying and are being killed, and are going missing and they are being murdered, and human trafficking is a common denominator in so many of these cases, and it’s not anywhere. It’s not in our news, it’s not in our community discussions.” Sometimes for me, that was a lot of anger. I was coming out of years of direct service where I was seeing people harmed. I was seeing a lot of harm because of trafficking, and still, our community wasn’t really having a very high level trafficking conversation, or too high level, you might say. We talk about the weariness. One of the things I always notice is how tired I am of having the Human Trafficking 101, conversation. I really appreciated the Not Invisible Act Commission. I really appreciate the work in Savannah’s Act to help create coordinated community response plans, and to start having more community efforts in our tribal villages, our reservations. Here in Alaska, we are PL280 states, so we don’t have reservations in the same way that the lower 48 does. But Savannah’s Act and Not Invisible Act, really helped to start to tell some of those stories and to create action from those stories. For me, it was a lot of forward momentum.

Sandra Morgan 24:46
You’ve created a lot of interest for me now, to learn those stories, and I’m going to be seeking them out. I’ve already started making a list of people you’ve mentioned that I’m going to ask you to introduce me to, but I I want to go down the path of what you see for the future in prevention. We started out Prevention Now, prevention is one of my heart’s desires. I go into the schools, we equip our students here at Vanguard to go into the schools. What can we do for indigenous people groups for prevention?

Josie Heyano 25:30
When I think about prevention and the human trafficking conversation, I like to ask people to take a step back from just the trafficking conversation. I struggle in this space a lot because I don’t identify strongly with ‘lived experience expert,’ I don’t identify strongly with ‘survivor.’ I don’t know many other Alaska Native women that have not had similar experiences as me. The data, which is terrible, and Alaska shows that we have all survived many things, and we also have these incredible gifts and these incredible protective factors that make us these immovable forces. I think when I show up to the trafficking conversations, my first thing is we have to take a step back. We see the excitement with trafficking, where people want to lean in and they want to do the work, and we know that it’s a problem in our communities, and I ask people to take a step back and look around. Yes, we want to prevent human trafficking, and the way that we do that is what I said earlier. Do people have places to live? Do people have food? Do people have clothing? Are our relatives outside and cold right now? Because if they are, we’re not preventing human trafficking, and we can’t only care about their lives and their value when trafficking occurs, that’s not okay. We have to care about the humanity and the livelihood of every member of our community from the very beginning, not just when a crime has occurred. That’s where I think I find the most heartache sometimes, and balance it with where I do the most service, is we have a lot of members of our community that are struggling and that are not seen as valued or worthy of resources. For prevention efforts, I would ask service providers, what are your policies? Who’s turned away at your door, who is not able to access services, and how can we amend that? Locally here, we have a lot of people who will not be able to access services because they use substances. We have a lot of people that won’t be able to access services because through their lifespan, they’ve never had the access to mental health interventions and services that could have supported a better, safer, and just overall better well being for them. It’s really hard for me sometimes when people say, “We want to fight trafficking,” and it’s the same people who don’t want to fund housing programs, who don’t want to fund community food banks, who don’t want to fund community centers. It goes down even further than that. When we go to our villages, our reservations, our communities, is there clean water? Is there access to healthy, nutritious food? Do young people have a place to go to experience connection, belonging, mentorship? Is there a sense of pride of who you are and where you come from? Is there a way to instill that if there’s not? Those are the things that are prevention to me. I have never met someone in Alaska, in my work, who experienced trafficking, that didn’t have a very long, long story that started far before a trafficking experience occurred. We can’t just show up when it’s trafficking, and prevention means from the day that young person is born, all throughout their life, do all members of our community have safety, have access to community? I think above all else, my grandma Mary Ellen taught me this, and she didn’t teach it because she preached it or she said it in words, I just watched her. My grandma loved people unconditionally. You didn’t have to say the right thing, dress the right way, look the right way, she just loved you. She wouldn’t even say that necessarily, but you could tell in her actions that she would never treat people unkind. She would never snub her nose at people. She would never have judgment. She just knew and understood how complicated it is to be human, and how much all of us need to be seen, to experience connection, and to have another human being look at us with value and respect. When I think prevention, that’s what I try to do in my role. It’s not the big frameworks, it’s not the big systems, those are helpful. Number one, prevention: how do you go out every day in your community and show the people around you that they’re cared about?

Sandra Morgan 26:36

We talk about for kids here, if they have one adult attachment, one person who sees them, and knows them, and cares: that is prevention. I feel like today, I’ve had the opportunity to become a little bit of a part of your community, Josie, and I want my listeners to follow you. How can they find you?

Josie Heyano 30:14

Absolutely. I have a small consultancy. I had to kind of formalize it because I was just going out and talking at people, and then people would want to know more information. I have a website, signifyconsultingak.org. There’s ways to get in contact with me on that website, I’m also on LinkedIn. You can find me under Josie Heyano, but those are probably the two best places to get in touch. Right now, my work is pretty locally focused, especially I think these next few years, I’m really going to turn my attention to my local community to see where the need is and to be more connected in that way. I still do some work in the federal spaces, but my heart is really on the ground, with people still.

Sandra Morgan 31:33
Josie Heyano, what a pleasure to have you with us today. For our listeners, we’re inviting you to go to the endinghumantrafficking.org website, where you’ll find these show notes and links to the things that Josie has talked to us about. It’s also a great opportunity to start subscribing to the newsletter where you’ll get an alert when a new episode drops. Follow us on LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram, and I’ll be back in two weeks for our next episode.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Peter Baynard-Smith as the two discuss Hagar International’s Community-Based Care Model.

Peter Baynard-SmithPeter brings over 20 years of international development experiences across Africa, Asia, UK, Ireland and Australia, working with World Vision, Concern Worldwide, Tearfund, Engineers without Borders, and most recently the Brotherhood of St Laurence. As Asia Regional Director with Concern, Peter managed country programs across South and SE Asia, including in Livelihood Security, HIV/AIDS, Education, Governance, and Advocacy. With World Vision Australia, Peter led technical specialist teams in economic development, WASH, health, food security, gender and child protection, as well as the research and evaluation unit. Recently, Peter has been focused on the employment and community services sector in Australia, in the context of COVID 19 impact. His journey has also included work as an NGO strategy consultant, leading a technology start-up developing an innovative solution to better safeguarding compliance, and a social enterprise enabling refugees and asylum seekers to pursue their professional career journeys on arrival in Australia. Peter has been a Board member for Habitat for Humanity Australia, and a lecturer on International Development Masters programs.

Key Points* The community-based care model focuses on holistic support rather than institutional care, ensuring that survivors are supported long-term. This model includes long-term case management and addresses survivors’ varied needs such as counseling, legal support, education, and livelihood development. * The concept of “the whole journey” involves comprehensive support for survivors that extends beyond immediate assistance. It emphasizes the commitment to work with individuals for as long as it takes to help them rebuild their lives and reintegrate into their communities. * Training for foster families and community partners is crucial. All stakeholders, including employers, law enforcement, and service providers, receive training in trauma-informed care to ensure they understand and can adequately support survivors, reducing the risk of re-traumatization. * The community-based care model challenges traditional institutional care and seeks to engage and strengthen the broader systems in which survivors exist, including legal and law enforcement systems. This shift promotes the idea of creating a supportive community environment for survivors over a purely reactive institutional approach. * Hagar International aims to expand their approach beyond the four countries they operate in, to collaborate with local NGOs and share their successes in building community-based models for care, emphasizing the importance of capacity building and system strengthening in different contexts around the world.

Resources* Hagar International * World Vision International * Concern Worldwide * Engineers Without Borders * 45- War, Conflict, and Human Trafficking, with Esther and Camille Ntoto

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:14
Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode #332: A Community-Based Care Model, with Peter Baynard-Smith. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Our guest today is Peter Baynard-Smith. He has over 20 years of international development experience, working across Africa, Asia, the UK, Ireland, and Australia with organizations like World Vision, Concern Worldwide, and Engineers Without Borders. There’s a lot to learn about Peter, but I want to start with asking about your experience with Engineers Without Borders Peter, because usually on this podcast, we’re not talking to engineers. I’m so excited to have you join us on the show today.

Peter Baynard-Smith 1:27
Thank you, Sandie, it’s wonderful to be with you. Yes, my background as an engineer actually started out at university, and my passion for International Development and Engineering combined together because I believe that people in all sectors and all professions need to understand the challenges of sustainable development and international development issues. Engineers Without Borders is an organization that educates and empowers engineers and engineering students to engage with social development, with sustainable development goals, and I was the CEO at Engineers Without Borders Australia for a couple of years. Engineers Without Borders Australia is part of a global network of EWBs around the world, including in the USA. So yes, it’s unusual perhaps for an engineer to be working in the anti-trafficking sector, but I think that the important thing is that all of the work that every sector and industry is involved in has an impact. If our working on the ground in development agencies of all sorts, whether we’re doing engineering work, technical development, livelihoods, education, it all touches on the significant challenge and tragedy of human trafficking and modern slavery. I’ve been able to bring some of that experience across into Hagar and focus it on the anti-trafficking space.

Sandra Morgan 2:55
I love that my listeners are used to hearing me talk about multi sector collaboration. I often tell the story from my time living in Greece, about the big jars. Pithari, they were called, that the Minoan people, more than 3,000 years ago, carrying down into the king’s pantry a jug that holds 500 liters. To do that, they baked in handles from the top to the bottom, as an engineer, I think you would appreciate this story.

Peter Baynard-Smith 3:31
Yep!

Sandra Morgan 3:32
…All the way around, so then multiple people could grab the handle they could reach. I think you are an amazing exemplar of finding your handle to join us in the movement against human trafficking. I’m eally delighted to have you here today.

Peter Baynard-Smith 3:53
That’s a beautiful picture. I’ll take that one away.

Sandra Morgan 3:56
Yeah, you’re gonna borrow that, huh? Okay, good. Well, let’s start off with trying to understand we have listeners in 167 countries. So the principles are what are most transferable for learning how to create a community-based care model. So let’s start with, what do you think are the key elements of a community based care model?

Peter Baynard-Smith 4:26
Well, I might start by just explaining that Hagar began 30 years ago in Cambodia at the community level. So our roots as an organization, and therefore the approaches we take, is thoroughly embedded in grassroots community. The key elements that we package together in a concept that we call ‘the whole journey,’ is all the holistic elements that are needed to help a survivor of trafficking, or slavery, or abuse, to restore their lives, to overcome their trauma, and to rebuild their lives and their livelihoods and their future. Those elements include being well managed, case management, and one thing that’s very important at the community level is that case management takes time. It’s not something that somebody can have packaged up for a year, and then that’s it. We work with our survivors, clients, what we say is we work with them, do whatever it takes, for as long as it takes. We put no limit on how long we work with a survivor. I think that’s one of the most important elements, is actually not being rushed, not being time bound, not being project bound, but actually committed to working with clients for as long as it takes. The elements we include are counseling, legal support, making sure that they are in a safe shelter environment, safe environment of accommodation, whether that is a shelter or not, usually not actually normally in the community, legal support, also education, skill building, making sure that a survivor is able to get back their livelihood or develop a livelihood despite what they’ve been through and the trauma that they’ve experienced. For Hagar, the community-based model is about a wraparound of all of the provision of all of these areas of need outside of establishing any sort of institution. The important thing is that those in the community that can, whether they are service providers or they are actual community members or extended family, can provide all of those elements. So that’s for us, the most important thing, is being with a survivor for the long term and bringing all of the different elements in a holistic package to provide that support for as long as it takes.

Sandra Morgan 7:02
I love the analogy of the journey, because we don’t know if we’ve reached our destination just based on how long we’ve been walking, or if our- I don’t know even how to express this, but I get this sense that in your community-based care model, when we compare that, let’s do that. Let’s try compare and contrast what a community-based care model offers for that more longitudinal journey approach, as opposed to a victim service provider model that’s based on an aftercare facility or some kind of institutional program.

Peter Baynard-Smith 7:53
Yeah, I’ll use the example of in Cambodia, the number of women that have been forcibly returned from having been trafficked in China, forcibly returned, particularly during and immediately after the COVID pandemic, and returning back to Cambodia and having nowhere to go, and having been also ostracized and not permitted to return even to their families and their communities. In many, in some traditional models, those young women would be regarded as having to be in some form of institutional care, because where else are they going to go? What Hagar’s model has done is identify a home in the community where, at the initial stage, those young women can return to. We call them Homes of Love, and they can return and literally, they will be there a couple of weeks. They’ll be there simply to be able to get started making sure they’ve got a case manager, they’ve got somebody to support them, that their immediate health and well being needs are being attended to, that the counseling and the support can begin, just that beginning of the journey with them. But all along, it is about reintegrating them into their community and starting that process of overcoming the barriers that they feel, that even their families and their communities feel. Often, there’s great discrimination on women that have been ostensibly married off into, in this case, in China, and have have returned having been abused and having in many cases, severe trauma and severe psychological impact. The ‘Home of Love,’ is in the community. So even though it’s a home, it’s not an institution. It is a house mother in her own home in the community, bringing nd allowing those girls to stay with her for a number of weeks, get themselves back on their feet, and then all of the services and the support from Hagar kicks in over that time, so that then the ongoing case management, the ongoing counseling, any legal work that’s required, and any skill building and training, and all of those aspects can kick off, including reintegrating into the community. It’s bringing a natural family and community environment around the individual, rather than placing them in an institutional environment where they don’t have any connections and they don’t have a sense of a future beyond that. And that’s the big risk, and has obviously been the big change over the last 10 to 12 years, has been a recognition that that kind of institutional model does not lead to long term, wholesome, long term outcomes.

Sandra Morgan 11:02
It sort of contributes to some insecurity. And I don’t know how many subcommittees I’ve been on where our topic is “placement,” and “placement,” is is a little dehumanizing. “We’ve got to find a bed,” those kinds of things, but you’re talking about a home environment, and then you’re talking about community integration. I don’t quite understand how to look at that integration piece, because they’re not going to stay in that home. But where are they going now?

Peter Baynard-Smith 11:41
There is a few layers, a few levels of that. Obviously, the preferred outcome is that that survivor can return to their own family, their own extended family, in their own home village. When that’s not possible, we look at a wider circle of kinship care. It might be extended family in a neighboring community, might be relatives or cousins in a different town or a different province, so that sort of next circle out of kinship. Beyond that, we train up, we identify and train up long term foster homes. It’s really replicating almost the kind of model that a lot of developed nations would have around their approach to fostering and out of home care. We identify and train up families in provinces all around Cambodia, so that wherever the survivors have actually originated from, after spending time with Hagar in the home of love, they are then able to, if they cannot return to their family or there is no wider kinship care available to them, there is the foster care and home environment. Now this is young people and adults. Again, it can be children, but many of these young women, by the time they return, they are approaching adulthood, or they are adults. That foster model also is around evolving fostering from purely fostering of children, to actually that fostering and caring for vulnerable adults through that model as well.

Sandra Morgan 13:23
Love that. So this approach then moves the care that is going to stay with this survivor into a wider safety net, if you will. My next question then, is, when that happens, how dothe community partners….is it very prescribed? How do they become woven into this person’s life?

Peter Baynard-Smith 14:03
It’s a very community by community model, so identifying foster families and foster homes and training them up and supporting them, alongside supporting the client themselves through the reintegration process and all the ongoing support, because alongside this, their skill building, their education, their vocational training, their legal work, if there’s a court case going on regarding the broker or the perpetrator of the trafficking crime, all of these sort of things can be going on alongside actually reintegrating and trying to get her life back on track. There’s a multitude of supports alongside, but the foster home is simply the environment where they can live and be safe. The other aspect of the community around all this is related to prevention, because many of the girls that have ended up in these situations have come from situations of vulnerability, whether that’s related to poverty, whether it’s related to domestic violence in their own families or communities, whether it’s related to being susceptible to unsafe employment, the attraction of migration for employment that turn out to be very unsafe migration practices. Built into this model is a whole set of tools available to work with communities, right at the level of the household. One of the things I love in Cambodia, and we have a similar initiative in Vietnam is called The Good Wives and Good Husbands Group. It’s absolutely fantastic because it’s working with, in the case of the Good Husbands Group, actually working with men who mostly, even they themselves have self identified, as enacting domestic violence or not understanding the risks of trafficking, not understanding children’s rights, not understanding rights for women and girls. So actually helping to educate men and husbands around creating a safe home environment that, actually over the years, means that a young woman growing up in that home environment is far less susceptible to being attracted out into a potential migration that turns out to be a very unsafe and indeed a trafficking situation, or seeking unhealthy relationships and this sort of thing. It’s really about building understanding of respectful relationships, the vital role of a healthy and caring home, that that all actually contributes to preventing these situations arising in the first place.

Sandra Morgan 16:56
Building this community-based care model, then you’re actually building the community to be a safer place too. Your description of this reminds me of an interview, and I’ll put a link in the show notes, when we interviewed Esther and Camille Ntoto from Congo. Camille had started a men’s group that sounds just like what you’re doing, and it created a safer community for abused women to return to a normal life. So that’s very exciting to see different versions of the same strategy, I love that, that’s very exciting. When I think about this idea of a foster home, because you could tell I was thinking, “Oh, so they’re only going to take care of kids,” because we think of fostering that way. But this idea that you’re providing that safe space for someone that’s an adult, this is a little bit of a new way of looking at things. How do you train the families? You mentioned training and preparation.

Peter Baynard-Smith 18:14
A number of years ago, around eight years ago, Hagar in Cambodia really led the way in creating a rigorous and systematic set of guidelines around foster care, fostering in the community in Cambodia. So it wasn’t something as you know, the institutional environments in Cambodia had been very established and had been running for a long time, and the last 10 years or so, there’s been a very significant shift away from that, and Hagar has been at the front leading edge of that when it comes to this particular alternative. The community-based Foster Care is a much healthier and a much better set of outcomes, and a much better way of doing this. The guidelines that Hagar has developed, the work that Hagar does with the government, at ministry level and also provincial and district levels of those ministries, ties it all together. You can work on national guidelines, but then you also need to support and train, and build the capacity at a commune, and a district, and a provincial level to ensure that those guidelines are followed. That’s where the training comes in. The training isn’t just with the foster homefamilies, it’s also with the service providers and the duty bearers around them, because it’s a system. We’re very keen on making sure the work that we do is not setting up a parallel system. We want to strengthen the system and improve the system, and that includes and that requires government and duty bearers to be on board, to enforce it, to enact the same principles and standards in care. We want others to pick up the model, and that’s very important for Hagar. We’re not just about doing it ourselves, we’re also about building the capacity of local NGOs, local organizations, not only in the countries we’re working but also in some other countries as well, so that the standards and the principles, and the good approaches, can be picked up and run and have an impact in other places as well.

Sandra Morgan 20:34
If I’m imagining what this is going to look like, because you talked about economic tools and training empowerment, this training isn’t just for the foster families, but say I’m going to employ your survivors in an office building, then the people training the women to be computer data entry people, they have to go through your training? They can’t just start training them for the computer?

Peter Baynard-Smith 21:09
You’ve got it. You’ve got it. The one aspect of training that we do with all stakeholders that we work with, and that our clients engage with is trauma informed care approaches. If I take the example of if we’re brokering an opportunity for a survivor to have a job in, let’s just take that example in a data center, for example, it is vital that that employer understands how to work with and have their their eyes and ears open to the impact of trauma in that new employee’s life. If they’re providing their employment services in a way that appreciates the experience that someone may have been through, understands the impact of trauma, they are going to have a much more successful employee, they’re going to have a much more successful employer/employee relationship, and then the survivor is going to have a much more sustainable, successful, long term employment, placement, and opportunity. The training that we provide around trauma informed care is not purely on the social work side, in terms of the care per se, it’s also on employers and indeed, judicial services, immigration departments, immigration officials, police officials, all of those different services that a survivor comes in contact with has to be trained around trauma and understanding how you manage, and work with, and support, and not re-traumatize an individual through the services that you’re providing.

Sandra Morgan 22:58
You’ve got all these partners, collaborators, everybody working alongside. I like that because we’re doing it together. To me, that means that your language around partnership is really related to your comment at the beginning about systems. You’re talking about the system, not parallel systems, and at the time I thought, “Huh, I want to know more about that.” And now it makes more sense, but can you explain that just a little bit more? I think it’s unique to an engineer’s mind.

Peter Baynard-Smith 23:38
I think there’s three pillars, if you like, that we think of when we think of our work. I’ve talked about survivor care, I’ve talked a bit about prevention. The third pillar is this strength in systems. There are multiple systems, as you say, an engineer’s mind sort of thinks of systems in systems way, that one of the systems that we really want to focus on, and do focus on significantly and increasingly, is the law enforcement and judicial and prosecution system. Because survivors of trafficking are right from the get go, whether it’s in terms of them being identified as a victim, right through to the kind of impact statements that they’re required to give, right through all the evidence gathering process, right through all of the trial, and the legal, and the compensation processes that take place, that whole journey, if you like, that “system,” a victim or a survivor is at the heart of that system, and is highly vulnerable. They are highly vulnerable before they’re even identified. Obviously, they’re in a position of vulnerability in the first place, but they’re also highly vulnerable through that process. We work really closely, particularly in Thailand, our work in Thailand very strongly focused on law enforcement capacity building, victim support through the legal and prosecution process, and strengthening the level to which trauma is understood and factored in to the way that police and investigators, and indeed the legal profession approach and handle survivors of trafficking. That whole system, we’ve got a number of touch points with training, capacity building, building of evidence, and direct support to the survivor through the process and even at the other end. One of the things that I found quite shocking, is the very low level of compensation claims. Compensation may be ordered by the court, but such low levels of compensation end up in the hands of survivors, and obviously, once a court orders compensation, there’s a whole other set of processes involved in actually securing that compensation. Again, supporting a client properly through aftercare, through packages of support, again for the long term, because they can’t rely on a court order to redress and compensate them adequately for what they’ve been through, so you have to bring the ongoing counseling and support, and help with finding work and education in at that end of what is otherwise a judicial and legal process and system, but it’s a system that’s affecting humans, and the individual at the heart of that. Hagar is focused on those individuals and on those survivors, and making sure that all the aspects of the support they need are provided, even while we try and strengthen the systems for the longer term.

Sandra Morgan 26:55
I keep hearing this ongoing language, and that really supports the premise of this is a journey, and we’re doing this with the survivor in a community. As the community begins to function in a way that is very organically supportive, what do you see as a future trend that we can expect from the system changes happening because of a community-based model?

Peter Baynard-Smith 27:34
I think one of the trends is an increased understanding and recognition of the impact of trauma, and more and more stakeholders being trained and having their own system environments, their own institutional environments, let’s say, in the police. In countries where the treatment of trafficking survivors has not always been front and center, even actually taking up trafficking cases and prosecuting them has often been put to the side and been regarded as less important than prosecuting other types of criminal activity. I think an increasing recognition of the terrible impact of trafficking and slavery, the fact that we can identify it, we can support people, and we can restitute and transform, and heal those broken lives. I think that that recognition is growing, so I think that’s one trend. The other is that Hagar works with Hagar International Offices in four countries, Cambodia, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and we are with a partner of ours in Thailand. We have that direct working in those four countries, but we also are seeing a trend of being able to bring our learnings, our expertise, and our strengths to other organizations in other countries that are not necessarily going to be a Hagar program country, but a partner organization that can do all the same great work. An example of that is in the Solomon Islands, also in Myanmar, and I think for Hagar, the trend into the future is expanding the impact from all of the 30 years of experience that we have, by building the skills and bringing the expertise to other organizations that are local. All local organizations, local NGOs, and in the case of the work in the Solomon Islands, has actually, over the last 12 months, brought to the law enforcement process the very first cases of human trafficking in the Solomon Islands. They’re not the first cases that existed, but they’re the first cases that are being brought to the courts, and survivors are being supported, and evidence is being gathered. It’s a big change for a country like the Solomon Islands to actually have an organization, a Solomon Island organization, with the kind of skills, with the backing and support of an international NGO like Hagar, to bring that level of capacity to a system that did not have it before at all. So that’s a very big step, and we’d like to see more of that, we’d like to see Hagar’s work, being able to support and inject that skill set and expertise into local NGOs in a number of other countries around the region and indeed, globally.

Sandra Morgan 30:54
Well, I want to help you with that. Can you give our listeners some direction on how to get connected with you to get support on those initiatives? Website, contact.

Peter Baynard-Smith 31:08
Yep! Follow us on our socials, on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. Go to our website, hagarinternational.org. We’re always open to collaborating with more local and indeed, international organizations working with vulnerable and traumatized populations. The evidence is that modern day slavery and trafficking is occurring everywhere, sadly, and so development and international aid organizations working in many, many countries could, I think, really benefit from having a focus on understanding the trafficking risk, being aware of the trafficking context, and also the impact and the trauma that survivors have been through, and actually be able to work with them within the communities that those organizations are working in. We can bring those skills and training, and we would love to hear from any organizations interested in partnering with us in whichever part of the world they are.

Sandra Morgan 32:11
I know when we talk about community based care, we’re thinking of the survivor, but I think part of the outcomes of this strategy is that communities begin to care. Your example of the Solomon Islands, we know trafficking has been happening, but now there is a system response. Peter, I am so grateful that you joined us today. Thank you.

Peter Baynard-Smith 32:40
Thank you, Sandie, it’s been wonderful to meet you, and thank you to all your listeners and all your supporters of your podcast. It’s terrific, thanks so much.

Sandra Morgan 32:50
Thank you. Listeners, we’re inviting you to take the next step. Go over to endinghuman trafficking.org. You’ll find the resources that Peter mentioned, and the link to past podcast. If you haven’t visited our site before, this is a great time to become a subscriber, and then you’ll get a newsletter every two weeks with the show notes of that particular episode. Follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram, and of course, I’m going to see you again in two weeks.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Daniel Varon as the two discuss the important of retribution and restitution for victims of trafficking and abuse.

Daniel VaronDaniel Varon joined the Zalkin Law firm in 2020 bringing his experience as an attorney in the Office of the District Attorney in Orange County. He is an experienced trial attorney, having tried approximately 60 jury trials during his work as Deputy District Attorney. The California District Attorney Investigators Association recognized him as Prosecutor of the Year in 2017. While at the Orange County DA’s office, Daniel worked in the Human Exploitation and Trafficking Unit (HEAT). He maintained a full caseload and tried the first human trafficking of a minor case, following the passage of Prop 35. As a Senior Deputy in the DA’s office, he handled pre-trial writs in the California Court of Appeals, drafted and argued appeals in the California Court of Appeal and Superior Court appellate department, and drafted requests for review in the California Supreme Court. During his time with the Orange County DA, he was also deeply involved in developing and presenting comprehensive human trafficking training programs for law enforcement and prosecutors in 12 counties across California. He served as a subject matter expert for California’s Commission on Peace Officer Standards and training for development of its human trafficking training video and the Post Institute of Criminal Investigations, advancing human trafficking investigations. Before his work at the Orange County District Attorney’s office, he worked for the law firm of Gilbert, Kelly, Crowley and Jennett in Los Angeles.

Key Points* The vertical prosecution model is essential in ensuring effective outcomes for victims, as it dedicates prosecutors to human trafficking cases, encouraging collaboration with police and law enforcement. The success of the HEAT unit relied on building trust not only among law enforcement but also with juvenile defenders, victim service providers, and the courts, creating a comprehensive support system for trafficking victims. * Daniel now represents victims of childhood sexual abuse and human trafficking, and he stresses the significance of focusing on restitution for victims, highlighting the long-term impacts of sexual abuse. * The criminal and civil justice systems have key distinctions, particularly regarding the representation of victims, with criminal prosecutors acting on behalf of the state. In contrast, civil attorneys advocate directly for the victims. * It is important to balance empathetic support for victims while providing them with the necessary structure for independence and self-empowerment.

Resources* Zalkin Law Firm * Orange County District Attorney’s Office * California District Attorney Investigators Association ‘Prosecutor of the Year’ Award * Human Exploitation and Trafficking Unit (HEAT) * California Courts of Appeals * California Supreme Court * California’s Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training * Southwestern Law School * Interview with Daniel Aaron * 112: Juvenile Justice Inspiring Hope: An Interview with Hon. Maria Hernandez * Institute on Violence, Abuse and Trauma (IVAT)

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:14
Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode #331: Retribution and Restitution, with Daniel Varon. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Our guest today is Daniel Varon, and he joined the Zalkin Law firm in 2020 but I knew him a long time before that. His experience as an attorney in the office of the district attorney in Orange County was a huge part of the battle against human trafficking in my backyard. He is an experienced trial attorney, having tried approximately 60 jury trials during his work as Deputy District Attorney. He was recognized as Prosecutor of the Year by the California District Attorney Investigators Association in 2017. That’s an amazing honor, and I congratulate you. While at the Orange County DA’s office, Daniel worked in the Human Exploitation and Trafficking Unit. Colloquially, we called it the “HEAT Unit,” because they put heat on those traffickers. He maintained a full case load and tried the first human trafficking of a minor case, following passage of Prop 35. As a Senior Deputy in the DA’s office, he also handled pre-trial writs in the California Court of Appeals, drafted and argued appeals in the California Court of Appeal and Superior Court appellate department, and drafted requests for review in the California Supreme Court. Now to my listeners, you know I don’t usually do long bios, but I think this could be like a timeline for those aspiring attorneys that have talked to me, who want to be in the battle as an advocate. So I’m going to do just a little more than usual. During his time with the Orange County DA, he was also deeply involved in developing and presenting comprehensive human trafficking training programs for law enforcement and prosecutors in 12 counties across California. He served as a subject matter expert for California’s Commission on Peace Officer Standards and training for development of its human trafficking training video and for the Post Institute of Criminal Investigations, advancing human trafficking investigations. This is really important because we need those who have gone and been pioneers to help all of us reach the same level. Prior to his work at the Orange County District Attorney, he worked for the law firm of Gilbert, Kelly, Crowley and Jennett in Los Angeles. He has done so many outstanding things, and I think learning more about him outside of when he was serving here in Orange County, my favorite new thing to learn is that when he was at Southwestern University School of Law, he received the Best Advocate Award. I think we could all agree that he still qualifies in that area. Danny, welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, and I apologize for that long bio.

Daniel Varon 4:33
Well, thank you, Sandie. It’s great to be here, it’s great to see you. I think I did your podcast, I think seven years ago, while we were in the midst of all of this. Maybe longer, actually. It was great to see you in Orange County a few months ago, and it’s great to do your podcast. Thank you for having me.

Sandra Morgan 4:50
I plan to put the link to that podcast in the show notes, so people, if you want more of the content we’re going to talk about here, you can go back and listen to our previous conversation. Let’s get a little history on what happened here in Orange County and what it was like for you to be on the first HEAT team.

Daniel Varon 5:15
Well, it was amazing. And I have to say, I was thinking over those days, back in 2011/2012 when we were envisioning what the HEAT unit would look like. It’s hard not to feel like I was the Forrest Gump of human trafficking. Honestly, and you remember back in those early days, we were law enforcement led. We had a grant from the federal government, from the FBI. We had a wonderful federal agent, Steve Wrathall, who kind of spearheaded that effort. They created a task force at Anaheim Police Department, I think in 2010, and part of what they were obligated to do as part of receiving that grant was to learn and then train on human trafficking. In 2011 I happen to be assigned to a felony prosecution unit that dealt with the Northern District of Orange County, and that included Anaheim. I happened to get a few piping cases on my caseload, and we happened to get one close to trial, and that’s how I met those police officers. Greg Freeze, Shane Carringer, Paul Delgado, and others, I don’t want to leave anybody out, I probably did. I really followed their lead. I mean, these were guys that were willing to learn and do new things. They were vice officers at the time, and they took a new approach, and I learned the approach from them. It’s embarrassing to hear my bio read like that. Thank you for the kind words and the kind introduction, but I’d be remiss if I didn’t point out that, like I said, I was the Forrest Gump of human trafficking that happened to be in the right place at the right time, and if I was smart on anything, it was I was smart enough to follow the lead of really good police officers.

Sandra Morgan 6:53
Thank you. That’s great. I worked with police officers before we had a vertical prosecutor, and I left the Office of Admin for the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force just as you were coming on. The difference in the outcomes for our victims were astronomical with the vertical prosecutor being available. Can you explain what that means?

Daniel Varon 7:32
Sure, Orange County, I think, is different from a lot of DA’soffices, in that it really does have a vertical prosecution model for the serious felonies. What that means, as opposed to a non vertical prosecution model is, the best way I could illustrate it is the difference between what I would say are garden variety felonies, simple assaults, burglaries, robberies, non gang crimes, non sex crimes, non homicides, those garden variety felonies are handled by different units at different times. So somebody gets arrested, police officers prepare reports, they submit it to a preliminary hearing unit, and they’re the unit that’s just designed to go to court to show the judge that there’s probable cause to hold the defendant to answer on those charges, and then once that happens, it gets submitted to a general felony unit, which is the unit that I was speaking about earlier, that I was assigned to the north team for. Then it’s prosecuted to trial by a trial deputy, and then if there’s a conviction and an appeal, the appeal gets handled by the Attorney General’s Office. Vertical prosecution means, instead of having these two separate units within the DA’s office that handle the first and the second phase of the case, the vertical prosecution teams tend to be assigned to specific crimes. Because they’re assigned to specific crimes, they get very involved with the police officers who investigate those crimes. We get very involved in understanding how the crimes work, how they’re investigated, how they’re prosecuted, and we get involved from the very earliest stage. The moment that a crime occurs, the police officers know who the assigned prosecutor is going to be, they can have conversations to make sure that the evidence is collected in the right way, that all of the elements to the crime are accounted for, it’s the DA who reviews those search warrants, reviews all the evidence as it comes in, and is able to meet the victim at the earliest possible stage. And then it also creates consistency for the victim of crime, because the victim has one prosecutor that she knows is handling her case and as it works through the process. It’s, in my view for serious crimes and for complicated crimes, it’s a much more effective and meaningful way to present a case through the process. It’s more effective for the victims. It’s more effective for law enforcement, and, quite frankly, I think it’s more effective for the courts. If you think about homicide, homicide is very complicated, and you want an attorney on the case who really understands the intricacies of the law of homicide. Human trafficking is no different. Human trafficking is very complicated in many respects. It’s complicated because of the social and the psychological components of it, you really have to understand what makes that trafficking relationship tick. You really have to understand the victimization. We used to call it, in the trainings, we used to refer to it as victimology. How does a trafficker recruit their victims? What are they looking for? What characteristics? How do they manipulate them? How do they bring them in? How do they keep them trafficked? You need somebody that has really immersed themselves in that culture, so to speak. And then you also need somebody who understands how to take that information and apply it to the laws. In our case with trafficking, we also were involved in drafting laws. If we thought things needed to change, we were not quiet about drafting proposals to send them to the legislature as well, and I think over time, that vertical prosecution model gave us a lot more credibility with the courts. As we got more and more cases through the court system, the judges knew that we were the trafficking attorneys, that we understood the law. It felt like, at times, since I’m not in the the DA’s office anymore and I don’t practice criminal law in Orange County, I could say it, but there were many times that we felt that we were educating the bench, and that was a really, really important facet of what we felt our role was and what we were doing.

Sandra Morgan 11:31
That speaks to one of the elements we talk a lot about on this podcast, is collaboration and federal grants, for the last decade or so, have focused on an enhanced collaborative model. Without building trust, it is not possible to really collaborate, and that’s what I observed with the HEAT unit. I worked in the juvenile courts, and could see the trust between all of the partners supporting one youth who was now involved in this case. So kudos for the emphasis on including the folks on the bench, the law enforcement, the victim service people. I always felt, as a part of the task force, that I was personally part of the victories that we then had with the convictions.

Daniel Varon 12:34
Actually, if I can just add one crucial component there, which is that the way that the task force was structured at the beginning, and that I think it’s still supposed to be structured, but I haven’t been there for four and a half years, is it wasn’t just police, and that’s to your point, right? It wasn’t just police and law enforcement. The trust was absolutely crucial. We had to earn the trust of the juvenile defenders, the attorneys who were representing minors who were going through the juvenile court process, we had to earn their trust that if there was a minor that we recommended for detention in a juvenile facility for a short period of time, we had to earn their trust so that they understood that we were doing it to protect the minor from being trafficked, from being abused, from being victimized further. There were some wonderful juvenile defenders who understood that, and we were able to work with them to figure out what’s really in the best interest of the minor. That’s the crutch of California’s juvenile delinquency program. Really, the obligation is for everybody to look at it from the perspective of what’s best for the minor, and we did that, and I’m really, really proud of the work that we were able to do through the juvenile court system. As you know, we had an amazing judge during my time there, Judge Maria Hernandez. She was somebody who was just so dedicated to trying to figure out how to use the courts in the proper way to try to help the minors. She was instrumental in that process. The public defenders who were assigned there that we worked with, some of them were really, really terrific as well. The trust that you’re referring to, it has to go much further beyond just law enforcement and prosecutor, it has to go system wide.

Sandra Morgan 14:16
Absolutely. Thank you for that, and thanks for the shout out for Judge Hernandez. We’ll put her interviews in the show notes too, because she has some great comments to add to this. But now you’re not here in Orange County, and you’ve moved from criminal law to civil. What is that about?

Daniel Varon 14:38
You know, it was just the right time for me. I had a very long commute, and that wasn’t the only thing, certainly. But the work that we were doing in human trafficking is very taxing. We really, like I’ve alluded to, we really made it our business to be involved. It was never a nine to five job for us, in the unit. Brad, Shane, Laban, who you know obviously, and the others, Julia and the others that we worked with, Brian who is now a judge, we worked a lot. I think when we each came in, the entire emphasis of the HEAT unit and what we were doing was the victim centered approach, that we were taking the perspective of the victim and really trying to do what was in the best interest of the victim, and to achieve justice. Our jobs as prosecutors, fundamentally, were to achieve justice, and we were dealing with crimes that, by their nature, are recidivist. They’re not crimes that, they’re not one-offs. Somebody commits an assault in a bar, a lot of times that could be a one-off offense. Somebody steals a car, you hope that’s a one-off offense. The very nature of human trafficking is that it’s a crime that continues, it’s of a continuing nature. They recruit and victimize somebody so that they can sell them over and over and over and over. And every time they do it, it’s the money maker for the perpetrator. And so we know that when people get out of prison in this arena, they reoffend. I don’t know what the percentages are, but I venture to say it’s in the high 90s. We saw recidivist offenders over and over again. From our perspective, achieving justice meant that if you had an offender, it was our obligation, within our ethical bounds and ethical constraints, to use admissible evidence to ensure that they were convicted and that they were sentenced appropriately. We were focused on it, and we knew that learning and understanding and growing was key to that, so we went out with our law enforcement partners on ride alongs a lot. I spent many, 12:00 till 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning on Harbor Boulevard in Santa Ana to learn. I’ve been out to Anaheim’s tracks on Harbor and Beach Boulevard a lot. There were times when juveniles werelocated, where I’d go in at five o’clock in the morning so that I could interview her with the police officer. Those are things that we did, and so it’s very taxing. It’s taxing our families, it’s taxing physically and emotionally, obviously, the subject matter is very difficult. After my time in the HEAT Unit, around 2019, I was moved into the writs and appeals unit, which was a welcome change of pace for me. At that time, I kind of started to reassess where I was at. I did sort of a mental check in, because I don’t share this very much, but in my mind, as a prosecutor, every three or four years, I’d sort of reassess where I was at. I did that because I felt like it was my obligation to either recommit, mentally and emotionally to what I was doing, or find something else that I would commit to. Because if you’re just going along like, “Oh, it’s going to be a 30 year career,” you get stale. You don’t bring the same passion to your work, and it’s not fair to the victims that we try to achieve justice for. It’s not fair to our colleagues. It’s not fair to the office. It was 2019, I was kind of going through that mental check in, sort of, to see where we were. I knew Irwin’s Zalkin and I’d actually given a presentation. He asked me to give a presentation at IVAT down in San Diego, which is – you’re nodding. I think you know what IVAT may be, right?

Sandra Morgan 18:20
But for our listeners.

Daniel Varon 18:22
Well, I’m going to get the acronym wrong, but it’s an institute that focuses on violence against women, essentially sexual abuse and domestic violence. I gave a human trafficking presentation there, and we had remained in contact. By early 2020, we were in touch, and I ended up here. This is really, it’s a perfect progression for me. What we do in our firm, the vast majority of the work we do is representing victims of childhood sex abuse. Some of that overlaps, obviously, with human trafficking. What we had seen, we never actually got deep into the statistics, but it was very obvious to us that many of our human trafficking victims have been sexually abused when they were minors. Whether they were adult or child victims, when we got them in human trafficking, we learned that a lot of them were abused early. You’ve heard me say this before, Sandie, but we wanted to learn From traffickers and traffickers themselves talk about targeting young women who have been sexually abused when they were minors, it’s one of the risk factors to getting trafficked. The damage that’s done to a child who’s sexually abused is incalculable. It’s a lifelong, life lasting impact, and obviously it impacts everybody differently. For some people it made them more vulnerable to sexual abuse beyond the initial abuse. For others, it made them more vulnerable to human trafficking. For others, it makes them more vulnerable to alcohol abuse or drug abuse, difficulty with relationships. I mean, the manifestations of harm that are done when a child is sexually abused you really just can’t put to words the lifelong impact. For me, this is like the perfect place to be, it’s really where my passion is, is helping people who have been victimized in that way. The natural progression for me was, when I came here, is to look at, well, what about the civil component to human trafficking? And it’s something that we’ve spent a lot of time talking about and looking at, and researching. That’s an area that we’re certainly open to as well, it’s trying to find restitution for people who are victimized in that way as well.

Sandra Morgan 20:31
In some of my focus groups with victims of human trafficking, one of the consistent themes that comes up is what justice looks like. It began to concern me that their response was more about restitution so they could build a new life, and they really didn’t care if the sentence was five years or 25 years. If they were out of the system and independent, self reliant, it was a new life. I began watching restitution. I watched some restitution cases in the civil courts in Los Angeles, and I talked to those victims. Can you compare criminal justice with civil justice?

Daniel Varon 21:32
There’s a lot of misconceptions, I think people don’t fully appreciate what the role is of a prosecutor. I alluded to it earlier, that as much as we felt that we were trying to achieve justice for the victims, the main distinction between civil and criminal law, I think, if you wanted to just pick one, the main one is that as a prosecutor you don’t represent the victim. In civil law, if you’re a plaintiff’s attorney and you represent somebody who’s been trafficked or been sexually abused, you represent that person. So everything you do is geared towards achieving some result for that person. On the criminal side, you represent the people of the state of California. That might sound a little cheesy. When you look at a criminal complaint, it says the people of the state of California vs., and then it names the defendant. When we would stand up in court as prosecutors, we would say, “Daniel Varon for the people.” Some people might say, “Well, that sounds a little bit strange or a little bit cheesy, or hokey, or whatever,” but it’s not. Every individual in California has an interest in the Fair Administration of Justice, and part of that means that when somebody commits a crime against society by victimizing another member of society, it’s up to a prosecutor to stand up on their behalf, to ensure that justice is done for what happened. We know that there are many, many crimes out there, human trafficking oftentimes is one of them, where the victim, like you said, has no interest in their perpetrator going to jail there. How many domestic violence cases do we know about where the victim goes sideways and she doesn’t want her partner or spouse in jail? It happens over and over again, but the role of a prosecutor is, we can take into account what a victim tells us, but at the end of the day, it’s not a victim’s decision whether a case is brought or not brought. On the flip side to that is, a victim can yell and scream that she wants somebody to be prosecuted, but again, we have ethical obligations to represent the people, and if we don’t have admissible evidence of the crime, we don’t get to bring case, right. One of the hardest things that you ever do as a prosecutor is, a crime that you know was committed against a victim who you know was victimized, but you know that you don’t have admissible evidence to prove it to 12 people beyond a reasonable doubt. That was our burden, and so you have to decide not to file the case. It’s an agonizing decision at times, but it’s one of the most important decisions that you make as a prosecutor, is the decision whether to file or not to file. On the civil side, obviously we have ethical burdens on when we bring a case or file a case on behalf of a client, but we represent the client, and we try to achieve an outcome for the client. You make recommendations to the clients, but there are certain things that only a client can decide. It’s not the same on the criminal side.

Sandra Morgan 24:31
In your work, on the civil side now, how is that impacting justice for victims?

Daniel Varon 24:40
Well, our justice system is, I would argue we have the best in the world, in my opinion, but it’s not perfect. We can strive for perfection, and I think the fact that, as a society, I think we’re always moving the ball forward, but we’re not there yet. One of the imperfections, I think, is that there really is no way that I have found, to achieve full restitution for victims on the criminal side. That doesn’t mean that in all cases you’ll never get restitution, but in the vast majority of cases that I’ve seen, it’s really difficult to get full financial restitution for victims. We’re not talking about somebody stole your car and you lost $5,000, and then you got $5,000 back and got a new car. Okay that, fine, you get restitution. But when you talk about sexual abuse of a child, or you talk about human trafficking, which involves obviously sexual abuse of a child or a young woman, and I know I’ve been very gendered, by the way, but in my time at the DA’s office, I hadn’t prosecuted any cases where they were male victims. I don’t mean, at all, to suggest that there are not male victims of human trafficking, we know there are, but in my experience that I had dealt with, it was always female victims, and so that’s why I keep using ‘she,’ so please don’t take anything by that. But, you talk about the lifelong needs of somebody who’s been trafficked or sexually abused as a child, the cost is astronomical. The impact to that person is potentially lifelong counseling. Which estimates show that somebody who’s sexually abused as a child could cost anywhere from 250 to $400,000 over the course of their lifetime, just in therapy costs. What about their ability to go to school, housing, change in their employment outlook? What about all of the things that we really don’t talk about a lot, like sexual dysfunction? I’ve dealt with a lot of cases with male victims of child sex abuse, and there are ramifications for them that a lot of people don’t like to talk about. Sometimes we’ll question sexuality. Sometimes we’ll have sexual dysfunction. These things interfere with relationships. There’s no criminal court that will look at an 11 or 12 or 13 year old child who’s sexually abused and say, “Well, I’m going to award $500,000 or 600,000, or a million or 2 million, or ten million dollars to account for all of these things that we expect you to be impacted with over the next 65 years of life expectancy.” It just doesn’t work that way. The side note to that, Sandie, is that even if it did in the perfect world, where the abuser is caught and prosecuted and sentenced under California’s laws, they’re going to be away for a while. So, if they don’t have money sitting around, they’re not going to pay any kind of judgment. Even if a judge ordered hundreds of thousands of dollars of restitution on a criminal case, what happens from a practical standpoint is the victim gets a restitution order, then he or she can go in and try to enforce the restitution order. It becomes a judgment, and then it’s enforceable as a judgment. So go and enforce the judgment against somebody that doesn’t have any assets to speak of, and doesn’t have any prospects for future earnings. It’s just a piece of paper.

Sandra Morgan 28:05
So with the civil approach, how does that overcome that hurdle?

Daniel Varon 28:11
The civil approach, what we really emphasize in our cases is, whether there are other entities that are responsible for the abuse that happened. If there was a school or a church, or a business or something that was aware that somebody was a risk to abuse, and they turned a blind eye, they covered it up, or what have you, they didn’t follow their own policies and procedures, things like that. If there’s an entity that’s responsible, then you can bring a lawsuit against the entity and you can achieve restitution that way. A lot of the entities are insured, for example, for negligence. If they’ve negligently failed to protect somebody from a known abuser, or they negligently fail to supervise their agent, their teacher, their priest, whatever, then that’s something that they can be held accountable for, and that’s a way to achieve restitution for a victim of some of these offenses.

Sandra Morgan 29:10
I’ve worked in the public, non-profit sector for decades, and this is always, in my job description, under ‘risk management,’ because we know that we need to follow certain guidelines. For me, I’m curious if you feel that this approach supports maybe transferring some of the, I can’t really find the right words, but I’ve gone into hotels, to hospitals, to churches, and done training, but it’s always been- not always, I don’t want to say always- it often feels like I’m just checking a box. But when you hit the bottom line, it’s more than checking a box. Can you give me your understanding of that aspect on restitution?

Daniel Varon 30:15
Yeah, well, that’s 100% right. The reality is that there are, in our society, there are institutions that we put our trust in all the time, and we trust them with our most precious also. We’re talking about schools. We trust the school to supervise our children, we don’t even think about it most of the time. You have a kid, kid’s in second grade, you go to the first day of school, you drop them off at school. If it’s a private school, maybe you looked at the school, you interviewed there, and you looked at the facilities and all of that. But how many of us are going into the personnel records and checking to see if somebody’s had a prior complaint of abuse? We don’t get to do that, even if you wanted to, but most of us wouldn’t even think to ask that. And we kind of take for granted that these schools that have, really by having a name on the door, we trust them. If it’s a public school, it has the added credibility of being a government institution, and we trust them. We just drop our kids off, and then we come back six hours later and pick them up. And that’s it. If you want to make sure that institutions are doing what they’re supposed to do when you entrust your most precious things in the world, your children to them, then you have to hold them accountable when they fail to do it, because, like you said, the last thing that they want to do is lose funding. Whether it’s a private or public institution, they don’t want to lose funding. Most of these institutions are insured, and insurance companies are in the business of managing risk, and if you can’t follow the insurance company’s guidelines on managing your risk, you’re not going to get insurance, which means you’re going to be exposed as an entity to the liability. Some insurance policies have exclusions. One of the exclusions they have is that they don’t insure things that are expected or intended. So think about it this way: you get in your car, you get into an accident, god forbid, you’re insured. Because you had an accident. It’s negligence on your part or somebody else’s part, or both your parts. That’s what insurance is for. We buy it and hope we never need it, that’s what it’s for, it’s for those accidents. You drive your car and you see somebody you don’t like on the sidewalk, and you decide to intentionally drive your car up on the sidewalk and run them down, that’s intended. Now, insurance company is going to say, “Sorry, we have an expected or intended clause, you’re excluded. We’re not covering that. You’re on your own.” Well, let’s say you had a teacher in a school that was continually accused by students of sexual abuse. They keep reporting it, and the school investigates it, and then they don’t really do much about the teacher. Well, at some point, an insurance company could look at that and say, “This is expected or intended, we’re not covering this,” and then the schools on the hook. They don’t want that. It’s a way of giving them a negative incentive to do what they should do anyway, and how it translates into trafficking is, ou’ve got civil laws that specifically allow a plaintiff who’s been trafficked to hold institutions, the one that always comes to mind is hotels and motels, accountable. If they’re not doing their part to prevent human trafficking on their premises, and that’s another avenue for victims to achieve restitution, is through those institutions that were in a position to help, had an obligation to help, and didn’t.

Sandra Morgan 33:44
I have so much hope in how this translates in our communities to more corporate responsibility, more government responsibility. Because even if the initial response is not because I presented a passionate cry to protect our children, but because the board of directors is expecting that the bottom line is met. This is like a new tool, maybe not so new, but certainly you’re fine tuning the approach so that it actually is, like you said earlier, a progression in your work. In our final moments here, I’d love to hear, what have you changed your mind about since you started this journey as an advocate fighting human trafficking?

Daniel Varon 34:45
You know, I’ve given that a lot of thought, and it’s a complicated question. Because I feel like I’ve gone through this evolution, not only as a prosecutor, not only as an attorney, but as a human being, and as a father, as a husband. I mean, I’ve learned so much in the process. I started my life as a prosecutor in Orange County, which we always refer to it as being ‘behind the orange curtain.’ We said there was such a difference between the way they prosecute crimes in LA and Orange County, and we really prided ourselves on what we viewed as the relative safety of Orange County, and we felt that we were an integral part of that, and that meant that our job was in seeking justice, to hold people accountable for what they did. We believed very strongly in personal responsibility, and so that’s how we approach the job. As a young and naive prosecutor in the mid i2000s, let’s say 2006/2007-2010, if you saw a young woman come into court with prostitution charges, you would see the same thing. That she had been in three or four, or five different jurisdictions. She got arrested and then failed to appear in each one of those jurisdictions. I would look at that, say, “She’s thumbing her nose. She’s giving the big middle finger to the courts. She’s just saying, ‘I don’t care about you. Your law doesn’t matter. Whatever.'” You would say, “Well, Judge, she needs 90 days of jail. She’s got to be in jail,” and that’s the only tool we thought we had, right. When we get to 2010/2011 and I start working with the guys I mentioned earlier, started to learn the victimology component and what it was that was driving this set of crimes. We didn’t stop to think, ‘How does this young woman, who’s been to five different places to get arrested, how does she get here? She doesn’t live here, but she’s got no phone and she’s got no wallet, she’s got no money.’ We never stopped to think about that, right. Part of it was learning that in 2011 let’s say, and understanding the bigger picture to the crime, and understanding that these were victims that were being brought there, that were being exploited. That changed everything. What it gave me was a sense of greater empathy and understanding to the human trafficking world, and I think that we try to operate,as much as we can, with that empathy and understanding and victim centered approach. But I say it’s an evolution because empathy can be great, but empathy can go too far. I know that in today’s day and age, that might be a very controversial thing to say, and if my wife listens to this it may be controversial in my own house, but it can be. I think where I’ve come today, through this evolution, is that what we do needs to be informed by an empathetic approach and an understanding of both sides of an issue and who we’re dealing with, but blind empathy can also be very dangerous. It can remove from us skepticism, which can be very important, especially as an attorney, you have to have a skeptical eye about a lot of things. But it’s also counterproductive for the person that you’re empathetic towards. You can kill somebody with kindness, and I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it with an approach to victims sometimes, and I’ve seen it with an approach to clients sometimes, where you want to do everything for a person because you care so deeply about what they’ve been through, and you want to help them, but you remove their ability to learn to help themselves. If somebody doesn’t learn to help themselves, they’re never going to get out of the human trafficking life. They’re never going to heal from sexual abuse. They, I think more than anything, what I’ve seen is that people who’ve been victimized, just like the rest of us, they need empathic understanding from people around them, but they also need structure and guidance, they need to have confidence, and they need to know that they have the ability to stand on their own feet and walk forward. Sometimes empathy can be an impediment to that.

Sandra Morgan 38:51
Wow. Okay, a little choked up here. I’m going to spend some time thinking about that, and I’m so grateful, Daniel, that you came to the podcast today. I’m probably going to call you again once I process all of that. Wow, that was not what I thought you’d say, but really valuable. And I ask listeners to maybe go back and listen to that part again, just hit your rewind button. As we’re winding up here, I want to tell our listeners thank you, and go to the endinghumantrafficking.org website, and in the show notes you’ll find previous interviews and interviews with the people that Daniel mentioned here. Follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram, and I’ll be back in two weeks. Danny, thank you so much.

Daniel Varon 39:49
Thank you, Sandie, it’s such a pleasure to talk to you.

View Details

Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by the Live2Free president, Delaney Mininger, as the two discuss the upcoming Fair Trade Fashion Show at Vanguard University.

Delaney MiningerDelaney is the president of the Live2Free club at Vanguard University and the Global Center for Women and Justice. Delaney is a third year student at Vanguard and a sociology major. She says her passion for preventing human trafficking started at just 11 years old when her mom went with a team to Italy to help women involved in trafficking there.

Key Points* The Fair Trade Fashion Show promotes self-expression through fashion while encouraging consumers to consider the ethical implications of their clothing choices and the production processes that affect the dignity of workers. * Fast fashion contributes to overconsumption and supports exploitative labor practices. The culture of buying cheap clothing leads to waste and supports industries that profit from modern slavery. * The podcast emphasizes the importance of supporting Fair Trade items and thrifting as ethical alternatives. Fair Trade ensures that workers receive fair wages, while thrifting helps reduce waste and is often more accessible for budget-conscious consumers. * The Live2Free club, through initiatives like the Safe Kids, Safe Communities Program, aims to educate youth about human trafficking, healthy relationships, and online safety, filling an educational gap often overlooked in traditional school curriculums. * Human trafficking is a global issue, not just a problem in the U.S. The Fair Trade Fashion Show aims to encourage audiences to recognize their role as consumers and to make informed choices that can contribute to reducing demand for exploitative labor practices.

Resources* Live2Free * FairTrade International * Fair Trade Fashion Show * Goodwill of Orange County * Fiet Gratia * Tony’s Chocolonely * Fair Trade Fashion Show Tool Kit

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:14
You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode #330: Fast Fashion Meets Justice, with Live2Free Students at Vanguard University. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I am so happy to have Delaney Mininger here in the studio with me for today’s podcast. Delaney is the president of the Live2Free club at Vanguard University and the Global Center for Women and Justice. Delaney is a third year student at Vanguard and a sociology major. She says her passion for preventing human trafficking started at just 11 years old when her mom went with a team to Italy to help women involved in trafficking there. So Delaney, thank you for coming in today.

Delaney Mininger 1:25
Yeah, thank you for having me.

Sandra Morgan 1:27
How long have you been president of the Live2Free club?

Delaney Mininger 1:31
I have just become president this year. I’ve been fully onboarded. I did some work over the summer, but officially starting at the beginning of this school year I became president.

Sandra Morgan 1:42
So maybe I should be addressing you as Madam President.

Delaney Mininger 1:45
Perhaps.

Sandra Morgan 1:46
Perhaps, oh my goodness. Okay, so one of the first things that happens every fall is we dive right in here at Vanguard with the Live2Free club for a Fair Trade Fashion Show. How did you get involved with that?

Delaney Mininger 2:05
Yeah, so my first experience with the fashion show was actually during Welcome Week. I was walking through the campus mall, and I walked up to a booth that was talking about human trafficking. Like forementioned, my mom had been working with victims of human trafficking since I was younger, and so I had an interest, and I just saw that there was a fashion show, and I thought that was such a fun way to get involved and to get some experience with clubs and different activities on campus. I signed up for that fashion show. I signed up to volunteer as a model, and that year was so fun. I met a bunch of people. I made a lot of friends. It was a really great experience. I love fashion, I love thrifting, it’s a big passion of mine, and has been for a couple years now. So I thought it was just so me, and it fit so well. The next year, my sophomore year, one of the interns asked if I would take on a management level position for the fashion show, still volunteer, and just help out with the other models since I had experience from the year before, so I just helped out there with the fashion show, leading some models. As the year went on, I got closer with the interns and they were telling me that I should interview for the positions and get more involved with the club, and I just had a big passion for it, so I got more involved, and that kind of just led to me being here.

Sandra Morgan 3:27
And now we’re just days away from the fair trade fashion show. So tell us about your theme for this year’s show.

Delaney Mininger 3:36
Our theme for this year is Fashion with a Passion, and Fashion with a Passion is all about considering the individual. In one aspect, fashion is something that the individual can use to express who they are and what they love. I have a lot of people tell me, “Your style is so cohesive, it’s so you. How did you figure this out? You’ve got it all together.” And I usually tell them, “Yes, my style is me, and the reason why it fits is because it’s just everything that I am and everything that I love.” You would point at something and say, “Oh, this looks like something you would like,” instead of, “This is you, you are this and you’re in this box.” It’s like, I have curated my style just to be me and a collaboration of everything that I love and I am. And so I encourage that other people do that, and I love to tell other people that your style should be you, and you should make your own choices of what that’s going to be. We want to make sure that when we’re considering those choices and we’re making those choices for ourselves as the individual, we’re not forgetting about the individual who is allowing us to make those choices, and who’s making it possible for us to express ourselves in that way. We want to make sure that we’re not getting self centered, we’re not thinking about ourselves in a way, but we’re thinking about those who make it possible for us to do that.

Sandra Morgan 4:56
Let me ask a question here, because I love this idea, and even though I’m a few generations removed from the students here at Vanguard, I get put in boxes. I get messages on social media that tell me what to wear for my age, and I don’t like that. I’m really leaning into this Fashion with a Passion, but my problem is, how do I do that? Fit my budget, number one, well, maybe number two, because number one is, how do I make it fit my values? People all know how strongly I believe that we have to be part of the solution to ending labor trafficking. So how do I make this fit my values?

Delaney Mininger 5:49
A big part of making sure that something fits your values, especially when it comes to fashion, is that you have the opportunity to shop Fairtrade, and a lot of us have the opportunity to do that. Fair trade basically just means that it’s a trading partnership that aims to improve the trading conditions for marginalized producers and workers in developing countries. It’s based on principles of dialogue, transparency, and respect, and seeks to create a greater equity in international trade. The great thing about fair trade is that we have so many different options of what fair trade items we can buy, and then for those who can’t afford fair trade as it does tend to be more on the expensive side, because we’re making sure that every step is taken to ensure that people are getting paid fair wages and what they should be, and treated properly. It does tend to be on the more expensive side, but there is alternative options, such as thrifting or second hand shopping.

Sandra Morgan 6:46
Let me ask you about that, it’s more expensive. Because people have complained to me about that, and I’ve challenged that thinking because I’m not sure that we need so much stuff.

Delaney Mininger 7:02
Yeah.

Sandra Morgan 7:03
Maybe it’s better for us as consumers to think about how much we really need, versus what we want, while at the same time we’re thinking about how it impacts someone else. Is it expensive if someone is getting paid a fair wage? if I’m contrasting that, and here’s my question, if it’s less expensive and it costs someone their dignity, their freedom, is that too high a price for us to pay so that we can save a few dollars?

Delaney Mininger 7:50
Yeah, I think that’s really important, is to consider the cost and the trade off. I think the term Fair Trade really well represents what it is, because yes, you are making that trade. You are getting this item, and you are knowing that it is not at the cost of somebody else. You’re knowing that it’s not at the cost of their dignity and who they are, and the value that they have as a person. It is a fair trade that you are getting this item for yourself and that they are getting treated with the dignity and respect that they deserve. I think that’s such an important part of this. Talking with older generations, especially, they’ve kind of gotten a lot better at decreasing their consumption and, talking to one of my advisors, they talked about a capsule closet, I think was the term they used, which is like investing in pieces that are going to last longer and going to be better quality. I think that when we’re factoring in the treatment of the people who make them, that just adds even more to it. It’s not just something that you’re going to buy one week and get sick of and throw out the next because it didn’t cost you much, so it doesn’t matter, but it’s something that you are investing in for yourself and for the treatment of others. So it’s going to last long, you’re going to love it for a long time, and you’re going to know that the values that were made to make that item are something that you agree with.

Sandra Morgan 9:17
Wow, I love that, and I love that you’re having conversations with your professors, with staff here at Vanguard. It reminds me of one of the co-founders here of the Global Center for Women and Justice. When she first started mentoring me, we had this conversation, that’s a lot of years ago I’m not even going to say how long, and I asked her what she did. She said, “I have a simple rule. If I’m going to get a blouse, I have to decide what blouse I’m getting rid of that is already in my closet.” And I lived overseas for several years, and one of my best friends and I love to travel together. When I’m with a group of Americans, I feel like, okay, I’m doing pretty well because my suitcase is only this big and their’s, I can’t even lift it. But then I’m with my friend in Greece, and we’re going on a three day weekend, and I said, “Do you want me to help you get your bag?” “Oh no, I’ve got it.” Everything. She’s got everything in a backpack for three days. I think it is part of a mentality, and we can do a better job with less.

Delaney Mininger 10:43
We’ve definitely become more accustomed to thinking that we need more things than we do.

Sandra Morgan 10:48
We could have another conversation about the difference between need and want. Okay, back to the fashion show, because you and I could chat about this, we agree so much. How does the fashion show impact global slavery?

Delaney Mininger 11:05
A big aspect of the fashion show is decreasing over consumption, like we were just talking about, as it’s one of the main drivers behind the fast fashion industry and other unethical businesses. For anybody who doesn’t know, fast fashion is basically industries that benefit from people who buy so much, so many pieces of clothing, and they buy them at very cheap prices so that they can throw them out, or they can do whatever, and it doesn’t really affect them because they didn’t pay too much for those items.

Sandra Morgan 11:36
Is that like the the culture of ‘I have to have an entire new spring wardrobe, and then a fall wardrobe, and then a holiday wardrobe.’

Delaney Mininger 11:44
And it’s not just seasonal. I mean, with social media, we see so many trends come and go within months, and it becomes this huge thing that everybody’s doing. So then everybody thinks, well, “everybody’s doing” so then everybody thinks that they have to be doing it, and then they buy all of these items, and then all of a sudden they see something that says, ‘this is out, this is in.’ Then everybody’s like, “Oh, well, now I got to throw all that away, and I got to get all this,” and they want to buy them cheap, because if trends are going to come and go like that, then you want to be able to dispose of the items that are out and buy the items that are in. And so social media has definitely increased that over consumption.

How does the Fair Trade fashion show counter that?

Well, I mean, just in general, if there’s a profit to be made, there are always people who are going to do whatever it takes to make that profit, and they don’t care how it’s going to disparage somebody else or how it’s going to affect somebody else. So we want to make sure, at the fashion show, that we’re encouraging others, that it is important, that we do care, and it is important that we don’t support businesses that profit off of labor trafficking and what we would consider modern day slavery. We encourage, like we said, second hand shopping, thrifting, buying fair trade items. We invite vendors who are fair trade vendors, and we’ve reviewed all of their practices and made sure that they are employing ethical practices. And then we ask them to advertise their clothing and their food, their jewelry, whatever it is that they have, we ask them to advertise those to our audiences so that they know how many options there are to shop Fairtrade and how many choices that they can make that are ethical and that they are not forced into encouraging this negative behavior that leads to disparaging others.

Sandra Morgan 13:30
When I go to the fashion show, I can shop?

Delaney Mininger 13:32
Oh yeah, we have so much shopping. No, we don’t want to encourage over consumption. So yes, shop responsibly, shop what you need, but also you can walk away knowing that the things that you did buy are going towards a good cause, and they’re not something that is against your values.

Sandra Morgan 13:53
If we’re shopping responsibly and we want to have a great fashion show, how are we going to get clothes that university students with student debt can afford?

Delaney Mininger 14:08
That’s definitely a big thing. I would say it is a big privilege to shop Fairtrade. It’s a privilege to be able to afford those more expensive items, and we want to make sure that nobody feels like they don’t have an option to also support ethical businesses and ethical practices. We have partners like Goodwill of Orange County who get their clothing donated to them, and then they sell them for much cheaper than the retail prices that you’re going to be seeing. Most stores, I’d say shirts are like 30, 25, at the lowest right now, and Goodwill does like 7, 8, 9, so you’re having a way lower price range, and then it’s just more accessible and more affordable to those who want to shop ethically and want to make sure that they’re not going against their values, but also are on a budget, like us college students. I mean, for me, I even have to be careful about how much I’m thrifting because I am on a budget, and I need to make sure that I’m not over consuming and also that I’m not overspending.

Sandra Morgan 15:16
What I love about thrifting, and I’ve been a big fan since the Fair Trade Fashion Show first started here, and I learned how to do that better, is number one, it doesn’t go into a landfill, it gets recycled. So in many ways for me, thrifting is like recycling bottles and bags and all those things. Yeah. It seems like it disrupts the economic cycle of buy, buy, buy, by giving an item of clothing another life. At first I kind of struggled, but I know this brand that I just picked up at the thrift store, and I know they don’t have good practices, so it really became important for me to study what it meant to disrupt that cycle, because that is another aspect of the ethics. I think I also wanted to commend your leadership team for vetting the vendors who will be at the fashion show. Who are they representing? How are they demonstrating that their supply chain is clean of exploited and trafficked labor? So when you’re thrifting, tell me what your experience is, how you take your values into the thrift store with you?

Delaney Mininger 16:51
Well, like a lot of people my age and even people older, I started thrifting because it’s all my bank account could handle at the time. I probably started thrifting my sophomore year of high school, and being a younger sister, I just wanted something other than hand-me-downs, because that’s what I had had for most of my life. I just wanted to have more freedom over my expression of self and I couldn’t afford anything other than thrifting, so a couple friends and I started thrifting, and it very quickly became an activity that we all loved to do together, because not only is it more affordable, but it’s fun. I mean, it’s definitely different than your average shopping experience. Every single item is unique, and you’re not going to find two of the same thing, but it’s just really fun. It’s a fun activity for me, and so that’s originally why I had started thrifting, is because it’s what I could afford, and it was a fun activity. But as I learned more about the impact that the fast fashion industry was having and that overconsumption was having, on not just our society and our people, how we treat people, but also our environment. I like that you said that, that you were saying these clothes get recycled. That’s such a big part of it, because the fast fashion industries, they toss out those clothes and they end up in landfill, and the textile industry contributes to so much of the pollution that we’re experiencing in our environment right now. I loved that it had an environmental impact, it had a societal impact, that was something that was so important to me, and so I very rarely shop retail anymore, because of how much I love the experience of thrifting. It’s also a great way to bond. When I meet new people and I tell them that I like to thrift, and I found out that they like to thrift, it’s a great activity to do together, because it’s something that is just so unique. It’s different than other shopping experiences.

Sandra Morgan 18:43
I think I’ve watched our Vanguard community, our students, really institute thrifting as an activity that is socially aware, at the same time as socially beneficial to creating strong relationships. And this was epitomized for me when I took a team in 2023 to Madrid, Spain. We were working with a group called Fiet, who works with victims of human trafficking, identifying, restoration, now they’re moving into prevention, and we’re taking another team there in 2025, and our student team said, “Dr Morgan, we’re going to go shopping. When do we have to be back?” When they came back, they had all these bags. They found the thrift store in Madrid, and so they took what they’ve been doing here, on their trip internationally. I think this is a growing trend here,

Delaney Mininger 19:52
I think it is one of the better trends, because we are seeing a lot more influencers who aren’t just shopping at these, I mean of course, we see a lot of hauls that are just crazy amounts of things, and they are a lot of the time from businesses that we wouldn’t necessarily want to support, but a lot more influencers and just popular people on social media are encouraging thrifting, and I think that’s a great trend. I think we should be encouraging that, and even if you are buying more of those items, you know that you are not directly supporting businesses that don’t match your values.

Sandra Morgan 20:27
And disrupting that cycle is just one piece of the big picture. We also are focusing on asking businesses to follow supply chain transparency best practices. We’re asking businesses to look at the workers along that supply chain and how they’re caring for that. We’re asking our communities to actually learn about how this works. Yesterday, I had a dear friend here in the office. She’s been a mentor for me, and so we’re talking about another generation, she could probably be your great, great grandmother.

Delaney Mininger 21:16
Oh, wow.

Sandra Morgan 21:17
And I gave her a Chocolonely bar, and she asked me all about it. Chocolonely is the chocolate from the Netherlands where the founder actually had himself arrested because he contributed to labor trafficking. Of course, they dropped the charges, but he made the issue on the front page, so people realized that his choice to eat chocolate enslaved a child in Africa. That’s the kind of awareness that we want to create here. And as my friend was leaving and she picked up the remains of her chocolate bar, she said, “Well, now I have to buy chocolate that doesn’t use any slave labor.” It changed her life. and I think we are hoping that the Fair Trade Fashion Show will make that kind of impact right here in our own community. Let me ask you one more question. Rnding human trafficking has listeners in 166 countries. Why does this matter to them? Isn’t this just a problem in America?

Delaney Mininger 22:39
I think that’s probably a question that a lot of people have. I, as we talked about earlier, know that human trafficking is not something that just happens in America. Labor trafficking is not just something that happens in America. Modern day slavery happens all over the globe right now, and it’s a huge problem that people are facing everywhere, in countries like Venezuela, in countries like Chile, Brazil, there’s so much labor trafficking going on, whether it be for our clothing or for our food, and though it might not be right in our backyard, we might not be the ones with slaves who are asking them to do these things, if we’re supporting businesses that are asking that of people, that are asking people to live with no wages, asking people to work with no wages, or in bad living conditions, then that’s not right. That’s just as bad as being the problem, contributing to it, letting people benefit from that unethical practice, it’s not something that we want to be doing. So it’s important to people in all these different countries that are listening to this podcast to know that it is happening all around you. And even if you are not the one that has a slave, you’re not the one that’s directly contributing to it, you’re still being a part of the problem if you aren’t checking yourself and checking what you’re buying, checking the practices behind. It’s not enough to just not be the problem. You have to make sure that you’re taking every effort you can and in every choice that you have, making sure that it matches your values and it matches what you want to do and who you want to support. We really want to encourage people, at the Fashion Show, to check their options, check what they can do. We know that it’s all around us. It’s something that we’re going to run into no matter what, and it’s difficult. It’s definitely harder not to be a part of the problem, but it is possible, it’s possible to not contribute to that. I think we should have that conversation of what is a want and what is a need? What things do we need? Those things that we do need, how can we make sure that when we are buying them, we are buying them in a way that represents who we are and represents how we feel about people and what they deserve? That’s such a big part of Live2Free and our mission. The fashion show is not only a great opportunity to mix people’s passion for fashion and passion for social justice, but it’s a great way to encourage people to check themselves, check their choices and when they’re expressing themselves, which is a freedom and privilege that they have, to also think about the individual behind that. Think about the individual who is giving them the opportunity to do that and the freedom to do that. At Live2Free, I just want to give our mission statement, we challenge a generation to make personal choices that recognize the dignity of the individual, the responsibility of consumers to slow the demand that drives modern day slavery, and to network with others, to rescue, rebuild, and restore the broken lives of victims. That’s our mission, and that is just a huge part of the fashion show and something that we really want all of our attendees to see and feel and relate to, and then take that and act on it.

Sandra Morgan 25:51
Delaney, your passion comes across so well in that and I believe you are living that mission statement. This is another generation of Vanguard students from Live2Free that will go out into the world and end up in some of those 166 countries, making their passion, living, and useful, hands on. Let me ask you how people can connect with Live2Free.

Delaney Mininger 26:25
With our Live2Free club, you guys can connect with us. If anybody’s on campus listening here at Vanguard University, you can come up to us, any of the cabinet members. There’s Kevin Arciga as our vice president, Chloe McLeroy as our communications chair, and me, Delaney Miniger as president. You guys can come up to us, ask us questions, get involved. For anybody listening anywhere else, our social media is @_live2free_ on Instagram, and we also have our email, l2f@vanguarduniversity.edu that you guys are able to contact if you guys have any questions, if you want to find out how you can get involved, how you can support us on our mission, even if it’s from a distance. We would totally appreciate that, and we’re always looking forward to hearing from anybody who has questions or wants to get involved. That’s some ways that you can reach us.

Sandra Morgan 27:17
I heard that if you are a teacher in Orange County, you can ask for a Live2Free team to come to your school. Is that true?

Delaney Mininger 27:27
Yes, that’s going to be our Safe Kids, Safe Communities Program, which was originally peer educators, and that’s also a way that I got involved with the club, originally. Before even becoming president, I became a peer educator, and I got to have the experience of going to these different high schools and teaching kids things that I certainly was never taught in high school. We’ve had a lot of other people on the team say very similar things, that it’s just so great to be able to share this experience with them, share this information with them, because it’s something that we lacked when we were in high school. It totally would have been helpful for us to have somebody older than us but still in a similar age range, somebody that could still relate to us, just let us know that they care about us, and they care about our well being and who we are, and what we are going to do with our lives, they care about what happens to us. I mean, that would have been so life changing for me to hear at that age, and I think it really is for a lot of these kids, important to hear that somebody, anybody, cares about them and their well being, and the choices that they make. We talk about different things like healthy relationships, online safety, we do overviews of human trafficking, and it’s just something that the health programs at schools, especially when I was in high school, were totally lacking, and it’s vital information. We want to make sure that we’re getting out there and sharing that with kids and sharing that with teachers too, so that they know how to help kids the best that they can and recognize signs of kids who are in danger or kids who are at risk. We want to make sure that they are aware of those things so that they can help them, and it’s just so important to us. I love the peer educators team and I would definitely recommend, if you guys are on campus, any Vanguard students, getting involved with that, it’s a really great opportunity. We have a good team lined up, and we’ve been doing so much to prepare to go back to these high schools. If you can get involved, highly recommend it. If you can support this in any way that you can, we definitely recommend.

Sandra Morgan 29:27
Thank you so much your passion, like I said, your passion is contagious. For our listeners who aren’t in Orange County, reach out to us. We would love to give you some resources, get you connected, because you can raise up an army just like this in your own community. Thank you for being here. Have a great day.

Delaney Mininger 29:53
Thank you for having me. I will have a good day, you have a good day too.

Sandra Morgan 29:57
Okay, bye, bye.

Delaney Mininger 29:59
Bye.

Sandra Morgan 29:59
Listeners, we’re inviting you to head over to the endinghumantrafficking.org website. That’s where you can find resources we’ve mentioned in this conversation and so much more. Check out the Fair Trade Fashion Show Tool Kit. If you haven’t visited our website before, a great first step is to become a subscriber, then you’ll receive an email with the show notes with each new episode every two weeks. Of course, I’ll be back in two weeks for our next conversation

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by her friend and colleague, Madelyn Rodriguez, as the two discuss the importance of restorative practices.

Madelyn RodriguezMadelyn Rodriguez is the Director of Programs at Project Kinship, where she leads and works alongside teams dedicated to supporting and training individuals impacted by incarceration, gangs, community violence, and trauma. She has a strong background in community intervention, clinical leadership, and restorative practices. Madelyn is passionate about providing culturally competent, community based, behavioral and mental health services.

Key Points* Project Kinship aims to provide a sense of home and community for individuals impacted by incarceration, gangs, violence, and trauma. The organization’s approach fosters a judgment-free environment where individuals can feel safe to express their pain and experiences. * To ensure an individual feels heard and supportive in their healing journey, it is important to use trauma-informed care. One aspect o fthis is empathic accuracy, which involves understanding and responding accurately to the emotional state of an individual. * Restorative practices play a crucial role in addressing community violence and individual trauma. These practices focus on repairing relationships, building community, and cultivating leadership while maintaining the emotional safety of participants. * Project Kinship engages with community partners and employs “live handoffs” rather than simple referrals, ensuring vulnerable individuals receive the support they need and foster meaningful connections to promote healing and stability. * Consistent, supportive relationships and interventions can help facilitate healing and personal growth in both youth and adults. With dedication and the right support, healing is possible for those affected by trauma.

Resources* Project Kinship * International Institute for Restorative Practices * Project AWARE * 268: Rebuilding the Brain, with Dr. Anne Light * Alternatives to Violence Project team * Intraconnected by Dr. Daniel Siegel * Neuro Sequential Model of Therapeutics

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:14
You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode #329: When Violence, Gangs and Incarceration are Part of the Culture, Where Does Restoration Begin?, with Maddie Rodriguez. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is a show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I’m recording in my office at Vanguard University, and Madeline Rodriguez is in the office with me, I call her Maddie. She is a dear friend and respected colleague. She is the Director of Programs at Project Kinship, where she leads and works alongside teams dedicated to supporting and training individuals impacted by incarceration, gangs, community violence, and trauma. Maddie has a strong background in community intervention, clinical leadership, and restorative practices. She is passionate about providing culturally competent, community based, behavioral and mental health services. There is so much more to learn about Maddie, and we’re going to dive right into our conversation. Thank you so much for being here with me.

Madeline Rodriguez 1:46
Thank you for having me. Dr Morgan, it’s such a privilege and honor to be here with you this morning.

Sandra Morgan 1:51
How long have you been at Project Kinship?

Madeline Rodriguez 1:55
I’m going on four years. Four years at Project Kinship.

Sandra Morgan 1:59
I would love to know how your life has changed in four years of working in this community.

Madeline Rodriguez 2:12
Well, using some humor, I’d say I got my first gray hair.

Sandra Morgan 2:17
Oh, well, that’s kind of fun.

Madeline Rodriguez 2:20
But I’d like to think that it’s wisdom that now is being imparted to me, and now growing from within and out. No, it has been a phenomenal journey getting to this place and really embracing what we call at Project Kinship, the heartbeat of Project Kinship.

Sandra Morgan 2:41
I love walking into Project Kinship, the sense that for so many, this is home. Can you just explain what that means when you see that on the wall?

Madeline Rodriguez 2:56
Yeah. So for those of you that haven’t visited our office, we welcome you to come visit. We love having individuals come by to tour. But as Dr. Morgan is mentioning, we always say you get two welcomes when you come into the doors at Project Kinship. The first, we have a wonderful gentleman named Carlos, and he will greet you with a big old smile and say, “Welcome to Project Kinship, I’m glad you’re here,” and the second welcome is that quote on the wall that you’ll see. And Steve often tells a story of how he came up with that, because when we first received the building and knew that Project Kinship was going to be moving into that facility, Steve was nervous about putting a quote on the wall. He tells his story all the time. He spent eight hours, candles lit, eight hours of Mariah Carey on the background to try to help him with his Writer’s cramp. He ended up coming up with something to the effect of, “In your darkest hour, let hope be the light that sees you through.” He went the next day to the office, and was there with one of our community members and great friends, his name is Ruben. He asked Reuben about this quote and when he told Ruben the quote, he was like, “Oh, it’s okay.” He was like, I spent eight hours, Mariah Carey, candles lit, how is it just okay? And he said, “Well, if you have something to say, what would your words be on that wall?” Ruben said, “Well, I’m a lot more humble than you, so my words would not be on the wall, but if they were, it would say something like, ‘Welcome to Kinship, where judgment and pain are left at the door, you are home.'” Steve’s mouth dropped and said, “How did you come up with that in 20 seconds? I spent like eight hours trying to figure something out.” He goes, “Steve, it’s simple,” and he’s a very tall gentleman, tattoos on the face, “When I’m in the community, people look at me like they bit into a Sour Lemon. But when I come here, I feel like I’m at home. I’m not judged, I’m received, and I can leave my pain at the door.” That’s the welcome, and that’s the sentiment. When people see our brand, they see the logo, whether we’re in the community, behind glass at a facility, or at our home base, we want people to feel like they’re at home.

Sandra Morgan 5:12
I love it. I absolutely love it. And for my students, who have got to have the opportunity to be there, have partnered with you in schools, it is a life changing experience, because there is a certain amount of skill that is necessary to create that judge-free, and yet structured and safe community. We’re going to talk about that right now, with the hope that for many of our listeners, you’ll pick up some new vocabulary, you’ll find links to new resources, and begin to consider what does this look like in your community? Because this is necessary for every community, to have the kind of resource that Project Kinship has. So my first question is, how do you approach and integrate trauma informed care and mental health support, specifically for youth at risk of exploitation?

Madeline Rodriguez 6:31
Thank you for that question, Sandie, and it goes back to something that you just mentioned about, the skill sets that are required to create that environment. When you ask this question, the first thing that comes to mind is being still. When I say that, it means that oftentimes in the community service, social work field, we feel like we’re always making momentum or moving with, or journeying with, and often it’s forgotten that one of the key components in even starting is just being able to be still and stand with. Standing with individuals that are at the margins and those that are most impacted by trauma, violence, exploitation. This requires cultural humility. It requires empathic accuracy.

Sandra Morgan 7:25
What is empathic accuracy?

Madeline Rodriguez 7:28
Glad you asked. I’ve been doing a lot of research on empathic accuracy and coining this term. We know that it’s important to empathize with individuals, but I would like to say empathy is not enough. Empathy with accuracy, and accurate tracking, and standing and sitting with, is what’s required to mirror, model, shift with that person, to really attune and be with them. So, that empathic accuracy means I’m not only here sitting with this emotion and feeling, but I’m also making sure that how I’m presenting myself with you, with what you’re bringing into the room, is what you need in this moment.

Sandra Morgan 8:11
So the accuracy is measured in what way?

Madeline Rodriguez 8:18
How the individual feels when you are mirroring, modeling, tone of voice, body language. An individual, for example, I hear practitioners all the time say, “Yeah, I’m empathizing. I can really feel that emotion, but I didn’t know what to do with myself,” when they were saying or bringing that thing, that emotion or that situation in the space. That accuracy part is being able to hold, and yes, I’m empathizing with that person, I’m also being able to maneuver and knowing what to do with what’s being brought into the room.

Sandra Morgan 8:59
Okay, this takes me back to being a pediatric night charge nurse and being empathetic was part of the job. I mean children in pain, and in your case, we have young people who are in a great amount of pain, but it’s not going to help them if I burst into tears and can’t help them with the next step. So when I think about this concept of empathetic accuracy, I’m remembering how important it was for me to demonstrate that mirror and then model a safe and confident response to their pain. I can just give you lots of incidents where, when you show up and you have to give a child a shot, and they’re like screaming and everything, I learned how to be empathetic and at the same time, help them manage the fear, the anxiety, the pain, and dial it back so that it didn’t completely unhinge the situation. You’re going to have to send me some guided reading. Maybe we’ll put a link to something, because I think this is a great term.

Madeline Rodriguez 10:41
Absolutely, and you hit the nail on the head with those examples. That’s exactly what that would look like when we have youth that are coming in and sharing some of the deepest wounds of their own pain, oftentimes not even physical, emotional. For our staff, it’s being able to, just as you said, being able to sit with, feel it, but manage and again, attuned in a way that they can support that youth in an appropriate manner, to help them regulate and provide what’s needed for them to also put the lid back onto the container so that they can still continue forward with their day. We can’t move or shift what they’re bringing with them right now. What we can hope to do is help them hold, regulate, and allow them to know that there’s a safe place for them to contain that, and allow us to walk with them when they’re ready to walk.

Sandra Morgan 11:43
Okay. Can you explain about how you address the kinds of challenges that you encounter when you’re trying to create that trauma informed safe space?

Madeline Rodriguez 12:04
Yeah. So even when we talk about how we approach situations, how we approach our community members, it really is a comprehensive approach, and we have to look at all the different pieces that an individual is bringing with them. Because oftentimes, it’s not just one thing that’s happening. There is an array of different barriers or challenges. I am thinking of an incident with a young individual from one of our school sites, probably two years ago at this point. This individual initially was struggling on campus and was referred to the restorative practice specialists that they had at the school, only to find out that there were challenges that were going on at home with caregivers. There were challenges in the community of where this individual lived, a lot of violence that was happening. When you have this young person, we had a look at all of the different pieces. I think one of the other things that we’ll get to later on today is talking about that collaboration, and how imperative that other stakeholders and other community partners come in to wrap around the individuals that we’re working with as much as we provide. When we look at things comprehensively, we understand there are things that we can support, and then there’s things we need others to help us with, because to carry all of these other challenges that come with the one individual and their story, we need other champions to help support us, to really help the individual thrive.

Sandra Morgan 13:42
Okay, that’s so significant, because when I’m sitting in my office, I have a student here who has really high anxiety levels, isn’t able to go to class, some of those things. I’m looking at, how do I fix the situation right now? When I learn that they are not in a living situation that is safe and secure through no fault of their own, they are exposed to substance use, they’re exposed to violence, they are living in compromising housing where sleep is not easy. I mean, can you imagine trying to sleep when people are coming and going and you don’t know who the people are, and those are some of the situations that our students have. So I’m teaching my student a nice breathing exercise. Well, that doesn’t help them in the middle of the night, when they feel so afraid and unsafe. So we have to have partners. You mentioned restorative practice practitioner in the school. Let’s talk about restorative practice. Is this another phrase we need to define and figure out how to measure? I think I’m going to keep hitting on this idea, we can’t manage what we don’t measure. That’s an old, old adage. We need to understand what we’re measuring, but we have to have a way to do more than guess. We have to have a way to do more than be positive, optimistic, and carry this aspiration. We have to actually have some structure for what that’s going to look like,

Madeline Rodriguez 15:54
Absolutely. So restorative practices comes from a framework of restorative justice work, and it comes from the social sciences that really focuses on three main goals. And those goals include repairing relationships, building community, and helping shift mindsets by building leaders. It is a practice, and as we receive training on restorative practice, we are extremely grateful for the International Institute of Restorative Practices that does a phenomenal job in trainings nationwide, actually, to support individuals and understanding the fundamentals of what Is restorative practices, and how do we integrate this. Understanding that even previous generations, and even indigenous cultures showed how imperative it was to form a circle, to come together as a community, to share with one another, to maintain positive relationships, because it meant survival for that community, in those indigenous times. We have fallen apart as a society, as a community, by not being connected. Going back to even that first question that we talked about, the importance of standing with restorative practices allows us to form intentional moments with individuals, to be seen, to be heard, to be felt, to be reminded that they’re cared for. There’s something really profound with that consistency, that consistent touch point. I know that in other conversations, we’ve talked about the importance, especially with youth and individuals who are experiencing trauma, having that consistent touch point. And so as a practice, even at Project Kinship, whether we’re in a staff meeting, an interview, or a circle, we always start our meetings with our name, how we’re feeling, and then a question of getting to know you, in honor of the intention of helping individuals be able to verbalize what they’re bringing with them. But also, we have a great mentor and friend, his name is Reginald Washington, and he is the founder and CEO of Project AWARE in San Diego. Now he was a 16 year old facing a life sentence, and at his time it was in an adult facility, and he was in his four by four cell. He shares with us that even in that cell, he was still full of all the rage and anger that had led him there in the first place, and as he started to do his own internal work, he realized that in all of his journey, there was a lot of pain and no safe adult had ever stopped to ask him how he felt or what was happening. He talks about restorative practices as well, and leads with how important it is to help young people, individuals, to verbalize and have safe spaces to verbalize how they’re feeling. What restorative practices guides us to doing is creating spaces, building healthy relationships, enhancing awareness and education, promoting accountability and empowerment. So if I caused harm, I need to take responsibility for that and I need to repair with the individual whom I’ve caused harm to, providing support networks, addressing underlying issues, and really encouraging positive identity and purpose.

Sandra Morgan 19:34
I can’t help it, but I just keep going back to my identity as a pediatric nurse. Alot of the problems that children have when there’s no strong attachment is, and when we think about attachment theory, I think the most important aspect of attachment theory for people generally to know is that when a baby cries, someone comes and relieves whatever the situation is. Startling, a wet diaper, hunger, whatever somebody comes. When a child is raised in a situation where no one comes, then there is no relief from whatever the distress was. What you’re talking about now with restorative practices, actually looks like building a new pathway that someone is coming. When you said consistent, I am like, okay, so this is how we build attachment when it didn’t get built when it was supposed to get built. It is possible.

Madeline Rodriguez 20:57
It’s possible, it’s absolutely possible. Dr. Bruce Duncan Perry’s work, he leads the Neuro-Sequential Model of Therapeutics. I truly appreciate his breakdown of the different regions of the brain and what is literally happening in child and adolescent brain development, and how that ties with why it’s so critical to help young people, and even adults who didn’t have that, form new neurological pathways to heal and provide opportunities for them to respond versus react. Because from very early on, from infancy until they say age 25 is when our brain stops developing, when that’s happening, we’re absolutely operating from a higher survival state from infancy, and then the executive functioning is that lasts to grow. So if we’re looking at things and if individuals are constantly in a survival state, then that executive functioning is stunted in a way, if trauma, adversity, challenges, are exposed to that child, to that developing brain, an individual. Restorative practice is format, is a tool that allows us to stop, regulate, relate, so that these young people can then reason. And this follows that neuro sequential model that Dr. Bruce Duncan Perry talks about. How am I going to expect a young person, an adult that’s distressed reason if their behaviors and how they’re presenting, what their body is telling me is they are in a survival state and they are reacting. I need to first be still, help them regulate, relate. I’m making eye contact, I’m a safe adult here with you, I’m a safe person with you. Then we can sit and get to that reasoning when we’re thinking, and talking, and processing, what just happened, what was the trigger? Help me understand, and how do we move forward? That follows the 3 E’s of restorative practices as well. It talks about we would need to engage, we need to explain, and then we need to set an expectation, so past, present, future.

Sandra Morgan 21:52
And you do this like once a quarter with a kiddo?

Madeline Rodriguez 23:29
The circles?

Sandra Morgan 23:31
Yeah.

Madeline Rodriguez 23:31
So currently, with our youth transformation program, we’re actually doing circles every day. We have 14 units that we are in, and every unit gets a circle at least once a week. In our schools program, we’re in 39 campuses now, six different school districts. Some of our RP staff have circles running weekly. Some of them, again, may have it every other week, so depending on the climate, they’re really accurately attuning with their youth and what their needs are. Absolutely, we have circles running every week. And in our adult programs, we have circles almost every other day as well.

Sandra Morgan 24:19
I think that was my point in asking that question, this requires frequency. You can’t go to the gym once every quarter, every 90 days, and expect to build muscle. You have to go regularly.

Madeline Rodriguez 24:34
Yes.

Sandra Morgan 24:35
And that lack of attachment that is so critical to development, but it’s not going to be a one time shot. It’s going to take repetition to grow those new neurons. I love that our brain is plastic, and in the show notes we’ll add links to Dr. Anne Lights’ interviews, because I know there are people who are listening to this and they work in populations where there is violence, and gangs, and incarceration, and they’ve said to me, “Oh, Dr Morgan, you just have so much hope.” It’s like, no, I don’t think I’m unreasonable. I really believe that we are designed to heal. Just like if you get a wound, it begins to heal. It’s going leave a scar, but you’re designed to heal physically, and you are designed to heal mentally, emotionally, and this is going to take time, though. You don’t have a wound, and tomorrow you go to the doctor, they sew it up, you still have to go through the healing process. I love Dr. Anne Light, in one interview, told us that your body, which includes your brain, produces 1 billion new cells every day. Maddie, your body produces 1 billion, with a B.

Madeline Rodriguez 26:17
With a B.

Sandra Morgan 26:18
Yes, so we are not stuck with what we’ve got.

Madeline Rodriguez 26:22
We’re not.

Sandra Morgan 26:23
We can change, we can grow. So, all right, I’m going ask you another question, although you look poised. I love doing in-studio interviews instead of online, you look poised to tell me something, really wise.

Madeline Rodriguez 26:38
I was going to mention when you were mentioning individuals, I don’t know. They’ve maybe given up on individuals. They’ve lost hope because a certain individual is more challenging, or appears to have more challenges than others. It’s important to remember that when humans are in a need state, there’s a priority in helping them discover what is their need. We just finished a training with the Alternatives to Violence Project team, and they have some fundamentals, and I’m going to read some of their priorities in their circle of transforming power. Here they have listed you always want to expect the best, think before reacting, ask for a non-violent path, caring for others, and respect for self. We were going through this needs list. When a need is not met, then what is the emotion that’s paired with that? We talk about cognitive behavioral therapy, which asks us to look at how our thoughts impact how we feel, and how we feel impacts how we behave, and looking at that sequence of consequences that result, and helping individuals look at that part. So if I can help individuals change that narrative, oh my gosh. What is wrong with this person, to what happened? Help me understand, then we can get to the root of what’s the need? What is happening internally, at the root for this individual? And if we can shift our approach to say, “I can see that you’re frustrated, I can see this is not working. Help me understand what that need is, because I can see that there’s something and we need to get to that root.” When we do that, then we help stabilize individuals, where they’re feeling safe, they’re feeling secure, and then we see progress.

Sandra Morgan 26:55
Another really important aspect of this is the role of the community. I mean, they can’t live at Project Kinship. They have to go out, they have to work, go to school, services that are required because of their mental health that are challenging. How do we engage, and I’m thinking like I’m part of Project Kinship.

Madeline Rodriguez 29:19
You are.

Sandra Morgan 29:21
How do we engage the community? Okay, I’m back to night shift in the hospital in pediatrics. I have a baby that has been admitted for pneumonia three times this winter already, and every time, I spend a lot of time with mom, who is probably someone who needed to go to Project Kinship. I know that my kiddo is not going to be okay unless I engage with her and give her the tools she needs. But my baby keeps coming back, so I don’t know how I can change things. And the third time when it’s in ER, middle of the night, and her cap says it all. It says, “Party till you puke,” and I know that if the culture, the environment I’m discharging this baby to isn’t supporting all the therapy and care I’ve delivered, I’m not going to be successful. So give me some tips on how Project Kinship engages community collaboration, cultural humility. Tell me what to do please.

Madeline Rodriguez 30:49
You know, it’s interesting that you have that example. One of the things that we’ve learned from Father Greg and even Steve, Kim, our founder, they’ll always highlight this notion of serving and not saving. Because we often might feel obliged or responsible to save a life, to save this person, but as you mentioned, we can’t go home with community members, we can’t be with them 24/7. So we have to trust that, as Maya Angelou would say, “People forget what you did for them, but they’ll never forget how you made them feel.” The hope is that what we’ve provided and how we have made them feel in that moment will stay with them, so that one, when they go out into the community, back to their daily lives, and they’re doing all their other responsibilities, that they know there’s a safe place they can always come back to if there’s a challenge or there’s a disruption in the plan that maybe they have created with us, for themselves. When we talk about partnerships and collaboration, we’ve shifted our language from ‘warm handoffs’ to ‘live handoffs.’ The reason for that is for a lot of individuals, if we call and say, “Hey, we’ve got an appointment set up for you at this place and they’re going to take care of you.” Chances are, they might not find their way there, or chances are, maybe they make their way there but have a lot of anxiety or don’t feel comfortable, and end up leaving or not following through. But when we go with, some of our community members that say, “I don’t know, let’s go with you. Let’s make sure you get to that appointment. Let’s make sure we’re also consulting and collaborating with that other community partner so that you feel safe and welcome there too.” That increases our success rate with them following through, and then that collaboration with that other community partner enhances our work and ensures that continuity and consistency of care. I’m reminded of the story of the forest and how the forest, I learned recently and it was so beautiful, that in the center of a particular forest there’s this circle of trees. They call them the elder trees, or the motherhood trees, and these trees roots are the deepest and most expanse in the forest, and they end up creating this interconnected system of roots. I said, ‘Oh, my goodness, Lord of the Rings, had it right. These trees are talking to each other.’

Sandra Morgan 33:44
That’s right.

Madeline Rodriguez 33:46
And they send signals. These linchpin trees are responsible for sending signals, or receiving signals when one, another tree in the forest is sick, and they send nutrients to help nurture that tree. If there’s a new sapling growing, they’ll send nutrients to the new sapling to help it grow. And I said, ‘How fascinating that in nature itself, nature is showing us the importance of a community that is interconnected.’ Dr. Daniel Siegel, I have to give him credit in his phenomenal work, he has a book called Intraconnected. He talks about the science of me+we=mui. He says the self cannot be healthy unless I am also thinking of the other and taking care of those around me, because that means it enhances my wellness. Again, going back to restorative practices, it’s this fundamental principle that humans are hardwired to be connected. We receive hormones in proximity when we’re with each other that enhance and reduce cortisol. Hugs, I’m a believer in hugs. I prescribe hugs all the time.

Sandra Morgan 34:57
Yes.

Madeline Rodriguez 34:58
We need 12 hugs a day!

Sandra Morgan 35:01
Twelve?

Madeline Rodriguez 35:01
Twelve for optimal living, and the science is that we have the vagus nerve. When we hug and embrace each other, heart to heart, it stimulates that vagus nerve, and it actually releases oxytocin, which is that hormone that allows us to feel connected, and it also reduces stress. How beautiful is that? So there are these fundamentals of human connection, and I say all that to highlight again, yes, we do a great job at Project Kinship, and we are so grateful for the Dr. Morgan’s. We’re so grateful for Vanguard, we’re so grateful for all of these beacons of community partners that allow us to work together to optimize the whole person, care for the individuals that are coming through our doors.

Sandra Morgan 35:56
I want to kind of land back at the beginning of how I see a child. For me, an 18, 19, 20 year old still looks like a child to me, and wondering what happened that your sense of safety and security didn’t develop that attachment. Now listening to you, and this intervention of connection, someone sees me, someone is responding, it is going to take a while to believe that, to actually grow the neurons so that your response is in the context of ‘someone’s coming.’ If my car breaks down, I know someone’s coming. I’ve got a wonderful husband, two daughters, someone will come. I’ve got AAA. If you have nothing, and your whole life no one has come, it’s going to take a long time to trust and we cannot step in and say, “Well look, I’ve got this, this and this, choose that, and we’re done.” It’s a commitment to relationship,

Madeline Rodriguez 37:18
Absolutely, and as you said that I thought of a gentleman, may he rest in peace. We actually had a funeral recently for him, he was involved in a tragic car accident, thank you. This gentleman had worked with us for a while, he was a middle aged adult, and one of the things that he would say when he would come to the office, I always greet everyone, I would say, “Good morning. I’m so glad to see you. I’m so proud of you.” He would look at me and he would say, “Maddie, why are you so nice to me? I’m not a good person. I’ve done some really bad things in my life,” and I would look him in his eyes, and I’d give him a hug. I said, “Because you are worthy. Because you are doing the best you can, and you’re stepping into your purpose, and it’s important for you to know that you are worthy, that you are loved, that you are cared for, and there’s people that believe in you.” And he would say, “Thank you,” he’s like, “I haven’t had that very much in my life.” If he were here to tell his story, even though he was, again, being middle aged, his childhood was wrought of so much trauma, so much pain that he was still carrying with him as an adult. He was giving an opportunity for himself to work through finally, and he was always so grateful for the progress and for the healing that he was able to receive with the incredible work of the entire team and other community partners that wrapped around this individual. I’m reminded again, as much as we’re there to stand with people, we’re constantly reminded and gifted with that opportunity to also receive reminders of the importance of connection, the importance of compassion and love, and connectedness. Yes, we have these fancy strategies and evidence-based practices that we abide by, but at the principal foundation, if we do not start with just stopping and seeing people, then we’re doing it wrong.

Sandra Morgan 39:28
This week, my good friend Dick Foth was on campus, and he said there are two kinds of people in this world. There are people who say, “Here I am,” and there are people who say, “Ah, there you are.” Maddie Rodriguez, you are a ‘there you are’ person, and I’m so grateful for you.

Madeline Rodriguez 39:52
And so are you.

Sandra Morgan 39:54
I wish we had more time. I just love this conversation. Okay, tell us, how do we connect with Project Kinship?

Madeline Rodriguez 40:03
Yes. So we are very active on our social media. On Instagram, if you follow @projectkinship, you’ll find us, and we’re very lively on our social media there. Facebook, just projectkinship, LinkedIn projectkinship, or you can go to our website projectkinship.org. If you’d like to learn more about our programs and services they’re listed there. If you have a young person that might be in one of our school sites and you feel like you would like to have them refered to one of our staff, or if you have a young person that happens to be on probation or in juvenile custody, or an adult, an adult that has been formally incarcerated, all of that referral information can be found on our website. There’s a smart link, it’s just one smart link. You put in the information and it’ll help you navigate with putting in the appropriate information to get to the right program and service, and our team will do the rest.

Sandra Morgan 41:06
Wow okay, so we’re going to put links to the things you’ve talked about here in our show notes. I am just so grateful that you came today, and I want to assure our listeners that you will be back. Project Kinship has been part of Ensure Justice, partnering with us for years, and you’ll be back in March, right?

Madeline Rodriguez 41:31
Yes, absolutely, if you’ll have me.

Sandra Morgan 41:33
Oh, thank you. All right. Well, listeners, we’re inviting you to take the next step and go over to endinghumantrafficking.org to find the resources we’ve talked about here. If you haven’t visited the site before, take time and become a subscriber. I want to grow our podcast, so what I’d like to start asking you to do is, when you meet someone and you think, ‘Oh, I heard that on a podcast, invite them to be a subscriber.’ You can find us on Facebook and LinkedIn at endinghumantrafficking and of course, we’re going to be back in two weeks for our next conversation. Thank you so much, Maddie for being here.

Madeline Rodriguez 42:28
Thank you, Dr. Morgan for having me. It was a pleasure.

View Details

Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Dr. Harriet Hill as the two discuss the power of art as a therapeutic tool for healing trauma.

Dr. Harriet HillDr. Harriet Hill was born to Dutch parents in Los Angeles. Her art is a unique fusion of her Dutch Heritage and Africa’s vibrant colors, where she lived for 18 years. For over 20 years, she has worked globally with survivors of war and violence, using the power of art to unblock emotions and facilitate healing. Those who experience her art are brought joy. Now, Dr. Harriet Hill advocates creativity as a tool to enhance perosnal flourishing.

Key Points* Art serves as a therapeutic tool for healing trauma, particularly in communities affected by war and violence as it has the ability to help individuals express emotions that may be difficult to articulate verbally. * It is important that ordinary people have access to trauma healing exercises and resources, especially in communities with limited mental health professionals. Dr. Harriet Hill’s work includes development of materials that allow non-professionals to facilitate healing through art. * Dr. Harriet Hill emphasizes that experiencing beauty, especially in nature or art, is essential for mental health and nourishment of the soul. Engaging with beauty is not a luxury but a necessary part of self-care and overall well-being. * While individuals have different cultural backgrounds, the experience of suffering and the need for expression through art are universal. Art transcends language barriers, allowing for shared healing experiences across cultures.

Resources* 325: The Cost of Burnout, with Dr. Alexis Kennedy * Healing Invisible Wounds by Richard F. Mollica * www.harrietspaintings.com

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:14
You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode #328: The Intersection of Art and Healing in the Brain, with Dr. Harriet Hill. Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Our guest today is Dr. Harriet Hill. Dr. Hill’s art is a unique fusion of her Dutch heritage and Africa’s vibrant colors, it brings joy to those who experience it. For over 20 years, she has worked globally with survivors of war and violence, using the power of art to unblock emotions and facilitate healing. She now advocates creativity as a tool to enhance personal flourishing. Welcome to the podcast, Harriet,

Dr. Harriet Hill 1:36
Thank you, Sandie. Thank you.

Sandra Morgan 1:38
When I first met you, Harriet, you were introducing me to materials on trauma that were designed to use with children, with families, with people outside the clinical arena. I was so impressed with how accessible you made brain healing to every person, and it wasn’t just something locked away in a clinical textbook that you could use for weightlifting. Tell us a little bit about your current work.

Dr. Harriet Hill 2:23
Okay, my current work. I have been working full time as an artist, painting for the last four years now. I had always painted a bit and used art in life, and in the trauma healing work I was involved in. But in the last four years, I’ve been painting full time and having a ball. I worked in minority languages for most of my career, in verbal communication, how we get an idea from one person to the other, through words. I’m very interested and excited to have time to explore how we communicate through visual images, because there’s similarities and differences, and I’m liking it a lot.

Sandra Morgan 3:13
Well, just for our listeners, I subscribe to Harriet’s newsletter and it pops up in my inbox, and I open it, and there is a blaze of color, and I can feel my response lifting. The more I thought about that, I thought, ‘I need to have her come on the podcast.’ A couple of weeks ago, we talked about burnout, and we talked about ways to avoid it, and why it’s so important. But how do we start building in practices that maybe we haven’t used before? Instead of being cautionary about things, ‘don’t do this, don’t do that,’ how can we build in positivity and maybe even a newsletter from Harriet Hill once in a while? Harriet, one of the things that I want to understand better is how your focus on the intersection of art and mental health can be used as a therapeutic tool to aid in healing the brain. Talk to us about that.

Speaker 1 4:35
Yeah. I lived for 18 years in Africa, and then was in and out of Africa for another 15 or so, and came in contact with people traumatized by war. I was actually working in language development, in Bible translation, but whole communities were rendered dysfunctional by the violence of war and the trauma they’d experienced. With some other colleagues and mental health professionals, we put together some materials that could be used by ordinary people in communities to at least help with mental health, because in many places in the world, there’s very few or no mental health professionals. So in countries that have war and trauma, there may be one or two psychiatrists in the entire country, at the time, this was in the 90s and early 2000s. We developed materials to help people with trauma, and then about four or five years in, we decided to try an art exercise, and I was appointed as the one to introduce it. I was with a room full of men, primarily men, some women, but primarily men in Ghana, and I was to ask them to do an art exercise, to express their pain through their drawing. We had clay, and markers, and paper. So I first did it myself to see what it would be like, and shared it with the staff, like what happens? How does this work? And then I shared it with the room, and I had never seen men in Africa, I’d lived in Africa a long time by that time, and I’ve never seen them really drawing, that was something kids did. It was with a bit of fear and trembling that we introduced this exercise to these people straight out of war zones. They took to it like it was their native language. We were very cautious about would you want to share this? You can, if you would like to share it with your small groups. They did it in small groups, and then they had some time to draw or do stuff with clay, and then if they wanted to, they could share it. They all wanted to share. They shared so long they missed dinner. We were at a conference center, and they helped one another to see what was going on and talk about what they had experienced. Because sometimes when we’ve experienced trauma, your brain goes offline, and your frontal lobe, your ‘thinking brain’ goes offline, and that’s the part that has the language. This emotional impact goes in and you don’t even have words for it. You can’t express it in words, it didn’t go in in words, your thinking brain was offline. Sometimes, your ‘feeling brain’ can let that out through art, and then you can look at it and say, “Oh, that’s how I feel. I didn’t know.” Being able to see it and put it into words, and talk about it, gives you a sense of control, a sense of agency, a sense of ‘I can handle this.’ It’s not just this vague, icky feeling, it’s sadness, it’s anger, it’s bitterness, it’s whatever feeling you might have expressed. That’s where I got started with it. I am not a psychologist. I love working with psychologists and psychiatrists, and other mental health professionals, but what we did was especially for ordinary people in communities, whether they be churches or other communities, we worked a lot with churches, just what ordinary people can do to heal from trauma. It was amazing. That, I was involved in for about 20 years, and that ministry continues. I just got a message from a colleague in Australia, in Darwin, who is working with women, Aboriginal women who are incarcerated, and they’re doing art with clay and with drawing, and finding the same experience. I mean, it is so basic, it’s amazing how helpful it can be and how universal it is. Because these men in Africa, grown men, took to it like it was their natural language, found it extremely helpful. Because sometimes words fail us.

Sandra Morgan 8:56
Words fail us. Let’s go back to what you said about why they didn’t have language to express. We really promote talk therapy a lot, and often realize that there are no words to express. Explain that a little bit more, how that process happens with the prefrontal cortex.

Dr. Harriet Hill 9:29
I just did a skit with adults and with kids here in Pennsylvania, on our brain. It was sort of like that movie Inside Out, where you don’t see the main character, you see inside his brain. We had a thinking brain, we’re just using ordinary language. You could call it prefrontal lobe, etc., but we just call it our thinking brain, our feeling brain, and our reflex brain. The thinking brain is analytical and it uses language, and when it is overwhelmed by horror, by trauma, it goes offline, nothing goes in. Those experiences enter into you on an emotional level, but you might have struggled to put them into words, unspeakable horror. It was unspeakable, you don’t have words. Those things can just be a nebulous force inside of you, and you don’t understand it, and they come back in unexpected times. Because your thinking brain is chronological, it puts everything away in words, in your memory labeled with words and in a chronological order. That’s great, but when your thinking brain goes offline, that trauma goes in, and it’s not put in order. Things are just popping up, here, there ,and everywhere. You can’t make sense of it, and that’s where the art can help, because you are not thinking, you’re just making something, you’re making marks, you’re shaping clay. It can be dance, it can be song, it can be any sort of art. I’m more involved in the visual arts, but those things can come out. And then, your thinking brain can look at it and say, “Oh yeah, that’s how I feel,” and then you can start talking about it a little more. But there are things that are very hard to get out with words, because they weren’t put in with words. They didn’t enter you with words.

Sandra Morgan 11:30
This idea, it didn’t come in in words, then there’s no words to come out as a result. Let’s hear the rest of the skit, what did they do?

Speaker 1 11:46
Well, this was not a war skit. This was just a skit of an ordinary guy who was stressed, and then he saw a shooting, there was blood everywhere. He didn’t get hurt, but he was traumatized by that, and then he also took an art class, and as he drew, he was able to express his pain. We had the thinking brain, the feeling brain, the reflex brain, which just keeps all of your hearts and lungs and everything functioning, and that takes over with freeze, fight, flight when there’s no time for feelings or thinking, you just got to get out of danger. We had good chemicals, and we have good words for those. What are they? Endorphins and all of those wonderful chemicals that are released, and there’s a whole field of study called neuroesthetics, that when we see art or make art, those good chemicals are released, and our brain starts to feel better, and over time, we can really heal from those bad feelings, those stress chemicals. We have good chemicals, and then we have stress chemicals, so we had people acting out these parts. The stress chemicals are good when there is a crisis, they get you out of danger, adrenaline, etc., but sometimes they are triggered when there is no danger. There’s a loud noise like the sound of the gun being shot, but it really was just a drawer slamming shut. But that can release those stress chemicals in the same way as an actual trauma. The other thing that the stress chemicals can do that’s not healthy is they can just stay on. I think in your earlier podcast, talked about the pedal going down and getting stuck, and that can just wear out your body really quickly. So the skit that we did was trying to see how our brains work, how we respond to art, it does make us feel better. It releases the chemicals, and this is proven by a very careful scientific study, and how it can also help us express in visual form what we may not be able to express in words. I think of the New Mexico artist with her flowers, Georgia, O’Keeffe. She said, “If I could have said it in words, I would have,” and that was just about art and beautiful things she drew. But it also works for trauma. If we can say things in the talk therapy and get to the bottom of it, great, but there are things we can’t express in words. The idea is, if we can use some sort of artistic expression to get those things out and see them, then we can bring our thinking brain around it and say, “Okay, now let’s integrate this so that we have one story and we’re not in bits, not divided into strange things happening, flashbacks, triggered, etc.”

Sandra Morgan 14:50
My response to following your art and then beginning to see how you integrated healing the brain in your public presentations of your art, in gallery presentations. I don’t know art world language, but I started really being interested in that, and I’m curious, because of our listeners, we’re predominantly working in the area of anti human trafficking and aftercare for trafficking victims. So how do you see art therapy as a way of healing brains that have experienced the continual assault on dignity and personal agency?

Speaker 1 15:42
I see it in two ways. One is even early in Boston, Dr. Mollica published his book, which was “Healing Invisible Wounds,” I don’t know if you’ve read that, Richard Mollica, but he found with refugees, they need beauty. They need art. They need to be in beautiful places that are ordered and not chaotic, and not destructive. Beauty releases good things in us, and if we release those good chemicals often enough, we actually began to feel better in a in a more permanent way. It’s not like you’re going to look at something beautiful, a beautiful painting or something that calls you and be changed instantly, but little by little, we begin to get a handle on, we begin to have more and more of an experience of feeling good inside and remembering what that felt like. Beauty is really important, beauty and order, not chaos and destruction. The second way, I think, is when we are engaged in art, it engages us. We don’t have to be artists. We don’t have to be professional artists, even. Any class or any group that I’ve been in where people are making things, making art especially, there is a hush that falls over the room. People get so engrossed and so present, and they’re able to put things out and look at it and say, “Wow.” That experience also can help trauma victims, and the trauma that you’re talking about with trafficking, you have to tell your story lots. You have to tell it over and over again, it’s not just a one time thing. The art may give you some tools to express things you don’t even know are inside of you, until it comes out, and you talk about it and look at it and say, “Wow.” When I do art, what’s coming out of me a lot is happiness, joy, beauty, celebration, and it makes me feel happier actually. I just feel that, that’s what comes out. It’s very interesting. Every person has a story, every person’s art will look different. You can tell if you’re in a group, who did what without them signing it.

Sandra Morgan 18:07
As I’m listening to you, I’m in my mind, because my prefrontal cortex is fully engaged in this conversation, I’m processing this, and I’m starting to analyze and prioritize where, if I’m making a list of things for my budget and taking care of victims, making sure we have food and shelter right up there, the beauty piece, the flowers, the art, that’s if we have resources “left over.” Can you convince me that I have to do beauty on my budget, just like I do food? Is it that level?

Speaker 1 18:53
Yeah, I worked with Diane Langberg, who’s a psychologist who’s worked with trauma victims her entire life. She says you have to get out and just be in a beautiful space, whatever that is for you. Often it’s outdoor spaces, it depends what people consider beautiful, but it nourishes your soul. Beauty is nourishing and we need it. It gives us hope, it’s not an extra. I don’t think so. I would say art can help us through the trauma, but it also can help us flourish in normal life. I mean, you don’t have to be carrying around a lot of trauma to benefit, because we can all improve and become more alive. I think in America, we feel like, “On our budget we can’t afford time for art. We can’t afford art. Let’s just keep it all to the absolute essentials,” and I would say no, art is an essential for well being, for really being well, which I think is what we’re all after anyway. Not having more stuff, we’re after being well.

Sandra Morgan 19:56
I think I started putting two and two together after interviewing Dr. Alexis Kennedy about burnout, and realized that every time I opened your newsletter, I was a little lighter for the day. The aspect of vicarious trauma in this line of work is something that caregivers and activists, abolitionists, advocates, we often do not do that well, and this is such a call to engage beauty as a way of keeping our brain healthy, just like we would eat our greens and make sure we get enough vitamin C, etc., all of that.

Speaker 1 20:52
Exactly, it’s part of a self care diet, really. It is as important as your green vegetables.

Sandra Morgan 20:57
That’s it. Now we’re going to tell everybody, “Sorry, I’ve got to go to my art class, and it’s just like eating my broccoli.” All right, so what are some challenges that are pretty unique to using art therapy? I would start with guessing that it’s not part of the program because of budget.

Speaker 1 21:29
You can have an elaborate art program if you have the resources, but people are doing art exercises with children and adults, teens, with nothing but a pencil and a piece of paper. If you can have markers with color, that really helps. But one of the most compelling art exercises I did was with a guy who had a folded piece of paper, he unfolded it and a blue pen, and it was an incredible experience. I don’t think budget is necessarily a barrier. In the trauma healing work we did around the world, we’re very committed to making it affordable to local communities, because otherwise it’s not sustainable. So you don’t need a kiln, you don’t need a lot of paint. You can do it simply, if that’s what is appropriate for you. Of course you can do all the bells and whistles too.

Sandra Morgan 22:27
Yeah.

Dr. Harriet Hill 22:27
We even have children’s camps where it goes on for a week, and some places are able to work with the kids for a very minimal budget.

Sandra Morgan 22:37
The other thing that I observed in your work is the cultural diversity, and maybe I could even use the term relevance. How do you build that into the healing aspect?

Speaker 1 22:54
Well, we all are different as individuals, we’re different culturally, but we’re all the same in some ways as well. The experience of suffering and expressing our pain is pretty universal. We might do it with different sorts of designs, but it gets out there. I have found it to be more of a universal kind of experience, rather than being distinctive by cultures like here, you have to do it this way, there, you have to do it that way. I mean, there are some things like that, who could be in a small group together, for example, how the group is conducted. But the art itself is more universal than language, that’s for sure. When you get to language there, you have a lot of differences. Oh boy.

Sandra Morgan 23:42
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 23:47
One of my colleagues and friends, Robin Harris, leads the Center for Excellence in World Arts at Dallas International University. They work more in music than they do in the visual arts, but they also work in visual arts. They have an MA and PhD programs in world arts, so they are actually documenting, studying, identifying all the differences, cultural differences. Music, for example, is a universal language to a certain extent, but then there’s differences in it. I would say the visual arts, I just find there’s a lot of similarity in how this art exercise works. I have not found it to be nearly as different as I expected.

Sandra Morgan 24:33
We will make sure to put links to these resources that you’re mentioning, because I’m sure people are going to want to study this more. Can you give us just a little bit more around the role of neuroplasticity in the healing process through art therapy? I think sometimes people get a diagnosis of PTSD, and now they’re in that straight jacket for the rest of their lives.

Speaker 1 25:06
Yeah, and you can feel very stuck because things are happening that you don’t feel like you have much control over. I remember one of my colleagues was a genocide survivor from Rwanda, and I remember in the late 90s, she said, “I will never heal from the trauma,” that she experienced during the genocide. She was pregnant, she gave birth to a baby that died right away, she fled. Everything was, as you know the story, it was horrific. I would say in recent years, I have found that she has healed to a great extent. We will always be impacted by any of the experiences we have. So if you have lived through trauma, it’s going to be part of your story, but it’s not going to be the defining part of your story. You can heal little by little, not overnight, but little by little, with these positive experiences, with telling your story over and over again, until you find that light inside of you, until you find your way out of it. But Diane Langberg talks about healing from trauma is the 3 T’s: talk, time, and tears. As long as that trauma is inside you and you have no way of getting it out, it’s going to be in control, pretty much, in ways that you you don’t like. You don’t recognize yourself, “I’m not that kind of person. I don’t blow up, I don’t get angry. I don’t insult people. I don’t do drugs, alcohol. I’m a good person.” You’re acting in ways you don’t even recognize. We do an exercise, we started with adults. We take water bottles and get a bucket, and fill the bucket with water, or the basin with water, and then ask the kids or the adults to try to hold down one bottle. An empty water bottle just filled with air, try to hold that down. Now, another, now, another, now, another, and before long, of course, the bottles are popping out of the water and they can’t control it, and that’s what those emotions are like. They’re in there, and it takes a lot of energy to keep it all down. I mean, I’ve seen people go through horrific experiences and try to minimize it. “Well, it wasn’t as bad as the other person. Well, it’s just part of life,” but actually, those wounds are in there, and they need to come out. They need to come out and get out where you can see them, and work with them. Just by telling the story and finding the hope that is there. What I found is when people feel safe, they want to tell the story because they can’t stop thinking about it, but they don’t want to think about it, but they can’t stop thinking about it. But when they’re safe, they can come out and then get out there, and then they can begin to heal. The tears are, I’ve read different things on tears, but I think they do carry some of the pain away. They’re a good sign, they’re your friend. When you start thinking of something, and people say, “I couldn’t cry, I felt nothing.” Well, when you start crying, it means those feelings, you’re feeling them finally, and they’re coming out, and it’s a good thing. The time, the talk, the tears, and the talk can be around a painting you’ve done or a drawing that you’ve done. It doesn’t have to only be the words initially, but those things reshape your brain, and the more charged it is, the better. In the trauma healing, people remember a 10 minute conversation when someone was really listening to them, and they can remember it like it happened yesterday. I’ve had people bring up things that happened in their childhood. Their sister died, and they talked to somebody about it for the first time, and they remembered, because it was a time when their brain was like recasting, reframing the story into something of beauty. There’s always beauty in the ashes.

Sandra Morgan 29:21
I love that.

Dr. Harriet Hill 29:22
But it might take you a long time to find them.

Sandra Morgan 29:23
I think you really have identified one aspect of moving it from trauma to a controllable memory, not something you have to keep pushing down so that it doesn’t suddenly erupt. This idea that in the healing, you’re left with a scar, so you have a reminder, but you don’t live in that open wound. You’re not constantly caring for it. I love that metaphor, because it shows that we are designed for healing, and I have scars from childhood and some from adulthood that are just reminders that I survived something. I’m going to reframe that. Not, “I went through this, but I got through this,” is my new story.

Speaker 1 30:30
Yeah, and you know when the healing is happening, because you talk about it and feel about it in a different way. You don’t have to badmouth people anymore, suddenly you maybe forgive people who hurt you. You can tell when it happens. A wound has to heal from the inside out, I had a granddaughter who had to have surgery as an infant. Her intestines were on the outside of her body, and they had to put them in. So she had a gaping wound across her abdomen, and it was hard to look at. I was like, “Can’t they sew this up?” They said, “Oh no, no, no, no, no. This has to heal from the inside out. Sewing it up, you’re just going to trap all the infection in there. It has to heal from the inside out.” That’s, I think, what we have to do with trauma. It will heal. Our bodies and our minds are meant for healing. The neuroplasticity that you you mentioned, our minds are changing all the time. We can have a hand in that by surrounding ourselves with beauty, by expressing ourselves in some sort of art. It doesn’t have to be visual art, it could be something like cooking, it could be dancing, it could be theater, it could be any of these things, but something where we are expressing ourselves and being creative is like your brussel sprouts.

Sandra Morgan 31:55
Oh my gosh. Harriet, what I saw during COVID in my community, is everyone was posting pictures of their latest charcuterie board. They’re showing you how to make little flowers. Instead of clay and markers, they literally are playing with their food, just like when you were 18 months old in your high chair. It feels like we’re designed to be creative, and we want to create opportunity for people to integrate that into their healing process.

Speaker 1 32:35
Yeah, and so we’re designed to be creative when we have trauma and other grief, loss, but also in ordinary times, it helps us be alive. It really does help us flourish.

Sandra Morgan 32:49
I think your guide in this art experience, you are particularly experienced. When you talked about your granddaughter’s healing from the inside out, and how hard that was to look at it. I have seen victims of trauma who have produced not beautiful, colorful, vibrant pictures. People have said to them, “Oh, don’t draw that.” What would you advise someone supervising an art program?

Speaker 1 33:28
Let it out, let it out. All of the ick, just let it out. In Africa, so often it’s pictures of airplanes dropping bombs, people with machetes, villages burning. I mean, really let it out, let it out, let it out. Do not shove it down, it’s not going to dissolve. I mean, there are some things we recover from, just in the normal process. If it’s not too serious, and we’re in a position of feeling resilient, we can heal. But those things that are lurking deep down inside us, and sometimes we have shoved them down for so long we’ve forgotten they’re even there, what life would be like without those things rumbling around deep in the dark, inside of us. It doesn’t have to be beautiful, what might come out is pain, but under that pain, there might be something really joyful that’s being trapped. What happens when you have trauma is, you want to avoid feeling the pain because it hurts so bad, trauma or grief, but when you avoid feeling the pain, you also avoid feeling happy emotions, and so you just become pretty much numb to any emotion, very flat emotionally. You’re not feeling the pain, but you’re not feeling happiness either. Once you can draw that picture of that horrific scene, great, get it out, that’s wonderful. And maybe now, what will come out after that might be something you never imagined was being held under it.

Sandra Morgan 35:07
Harriet, I am going to keep following you. Can you tell our listeners how to find you online?

Dr. Harriet Hill 35:14
Yeah, I have a website: wwwharriet’spaintings.com., and the same on Instagram. That’s Harriet’s Paintings, and it’s on Facebook as well. At the website, you can sign up for my newsletter, which I’m so happy to hear that you enjoy it, and I’m so glad that it brightens your day from time to time.

Sandra Morgan 35:41
Thank you. Thank you. I’m so grateful that you joined us today, and I’m going to be looking for ways to add just as much beauty as broccoli to my day. Thank you, Harriet.

Dr. Harriet Hill 35:58
Yes.

Sandra Morgan 35:59

All right. To my listeners, we’re inviting you to take the next step and go over to endinghumantrafficking.org. That’s where you can find resources that are often mentioned on the show. You can find out about the anti human trafficking certificate, and if you haven’t visited before, it’s a great first place to become a subscriber. And then you’ll get an email with the show notes when a new episode drops. Of course, I’ll be back in two weeks.

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Dr. Sandie Moegan is joined by Anabel Martinez as the two discuss labor trafficking and forced criminality.

Anabel MartinezAnabel Martinez currently works as a Senior Policy Counsel for the Sunita Jain Anti-Trafficking Initiative at Loyola Law School. She is a committed social justice policy advocacy professional, with over a decade of experience in advocating for marginalized communities through direct legal services and using trauma-informed and culturally responsive practices. Anabel Martinez transitioned to public policy advocacy to seek system changes that are intersectional and inclusive. She’s highly skilled at looking at real-world issues from a nuanced, analytical lens that aids in the development of comprehensive and equitable policies.

Main Points* Labor trafficking by forced criminality involves individuals being coerced into performing illegal activities as their form of labor. This can include tasks like drug cultivation, shoplifting, or other illegal acts. The labor they are forced to do is illegal according to local laws. * Anabel emphasizes the need for better systems to support youth who are trafficked into forced criminality. Many young people in juvenile detention may be victims of LTFC but are not always recognized as such. This misidentification can lead to punitive measures rather than supportive interventions. * There are similarities between the experiences of child soldiers and youth involved in gangs or forced into criminal activities. Both groups often join or are coerced into their situations due to a lack of options and are subjected to severe coercion and manipulation. * Immigrant youth, particularly those from Latin America or Central America, face heightened risks of being trafficked for criminal activities. There is a need for improved recognition and support systems for these vulnerable youth, who may be caught between the juvenile justice system and immigration proceedings. * Effective screening tools for identifying labor trafficking by forced criminality are currently lacking. Anabel highlights the importance of training and tools for professionals who interact with youth, such as those in juvenile justice and social services, to better identify and support victims of labor trafficking by forced criminality. She also underscores the need for more data to understand and address these issues comprehensively.

Resources* Sunita Jain Anti-Trafficking Initiative * 306: Survivor Voices Leading Change, with Jerome Elam * Freedom Network USA * Unaccompanied Refugee Minors Program * California Department of Social Services * Covenant House 2023 Impact Report * 259: Which Screening Tool Should I Use?, with Dr. Corey Rood * 315: Keeping Our Children Safe Online, with Susan Kennedy * NCMEC * National Human Trafficking Hotline

Anabel Martinez 1:51
Thank you so much for having me. I’m really happy to be here with you today.

Sandra Morgan 1:54
Well before we dive in, I have a personal question, because your bio says that you transitioned to public policy advocacy. Can you tell me a little bit about how and why you have done that?

Anabel Martinez 2:10
Sure. I feel like in some ways, as a direct client, when I was doing direct client services within the legal context, or whether that be social service, you’re always doing a little bit of policy advocacy in the sense that you’re letting your supervisors or your co-workers know, “Hey, this is a policy or an issue that doesn’t work for my clients or is causing me issues.” I noticed, as I was doing my work, that the people making policies were not folk who have experience providing direct client services, so oftentimes there’s policies are created with good intentions, but if you don’t have that understanding of how it looks on the ground or how that will be carried out, then you later on, you have to come back and fix those issues. So I was like, okay, why isn’t someone like me, who has this experience, providing this direct client service? Also, the person making the policy? Because then, I’ll be able to see those issues before they arise and be able to hopefully work around them or plan around them. It’s not possible to identify all the issues, but I do think we need more folks who have their client service experience, and be part of the people who are making the policies

Sandra Morgan 3:14
I love that. It’s so important for us to begin to figure out how to get further upstream in designing solutions.

Anabel Martinez 3:23
Yes. Unfortunately, sometimes we know nonprofits have limits on how much policy they can engage in, which is a lot of the folks providing those direct client services, work with the nonprofits. I’m very lucky to have found a job where I’m allowed to do that full time, which is very rare to find a job that’s full time policy.

Sandra Morgan 3:39
Well, let’s dive into our topic. What is labor trafficking by forced criminality? We even have an acronym, LTFC. Can you explain what that is?

Anabel Martinez 3:53
Essentially, within human trafficking we have sex trafficking, we have labor trafficking, and labor trafficking by forced criminality essentially means that the labor that is being asked of the person to do, or the person is being coerced to do, is an illegal activity. Whether that be cultivating, transporting drugs, deaths, shoplifting, sometimes even being the person who recruits people into sex trafficking, or being the person who arranges the dates for the person who’s being sex trafficked. That is what it is, the labor is the illegal activity they’re being asked to do.

Sandra Morgan 4:26
Okay, so when they’re given a job, a task, like go shoplift five necklaces or recruit somebody to be part of a brothel, those are considered labor trafficking examples?

Anabel Martinez 4:47
Yes, and it’s within the context off what is illegal within the state and city that you’re in, right? If that’s considered an illegal activity, then yes. For example, herein California it’s legal to cultivate, and grow marijuanaarijuana and sell marijuana.marijuana. But Then there’s also illegal farms that are doing that, and then they’re recruiting people into labor trafficking for that specifically. That’shat’s also another form of labor trafficking byby forced criminality becausecause they’re working at an illegal marijuana farm, doing the cultivating. Thehe growing, that might be considered legal if it was in a form that was actually permitted to do that work, if that makes sense.

Sandra Morgan 5:25
For our listeners, I want you to remember the interview in episode #306 with Jerome as he explained during his exploitation, first in commercial sexual exploitation of a child, he was very young, and then as he was older, he was required to do certain things, drop products in places, collect money, whatever. And when he was arrested, picked up, and put in juvenile detention, he was labeled a delinquent, even though it was all part of the trafficking experience. In your study at Loyola, you have used Los Angeles data. Let’s keep in mind everybody listening in other parts, I think a lot of this is a place where you can begin to ask questions in your area to see if there are parallels. I believe there are a lot of parallels. Let’s look at why you did focus on the youth in Los Angeles.

Anabel Martinez 6:41
I wanted to focus, because my policy work is Los Angeles city and county, and so that’s one of the major focuses. Also, right now we do have a movement to essentially close down all the juvenile detention centers, but they’re still open right now. Also because LA itself has done a lot of work to help survivors, youth, survivors of sex trafficking, and being able to provide them with services and identify them, but we have not done as much to also support youth who are experiencing labor trafficking by forced criminality. And we just wanted to bring to light to the county, and people within social services within the county, who are helping CSEC youth that those services that you’re providing to CSEC youth can also be provided to kids who are experiencing labor trafficking by forced criminality. Further, there’s probably a crossover because if a youth does not choose their exploitation, and more than likely than not, they might be experiencing more than one form of exploitation, kind of like you talked about Jerome. They experienced sex trafficking, and then they were being forced to do other criminal acts. That could also happen to other individuals, and maybe they’re not arrested for the sex trafficking, right? Because they’re not supposed to be now. Now in California, there’s a safe harbor law that protects them from being arrested if they’re youth. If they’re engaging in what is perceived as prostitution, they’re automatically seen as a survivor of sex trafficking so they shouldn’t be prosecuted, they should be sent to social services. But if a youth who is being sex trafficked could potentially also be asked to sell drugs and be arrested for that, but is there an assessment being done there, for that youth? And if there’s not, then you’re putting that child into the criminal legal system and sending them down a path that could potentially give more control to their trafficker, in terms of forcing them to do more things.

Sandra Morgan 8:37
When we think about our juvenile justice system, as opposed to our criminal justice system, this is very problematic. In many parts of the world, there is not as clear of a division between juvenile and adult, or criminal justice. But here we have that advantage, and there should be another pathway. This re-emphasizes that we have to look further at why is this child, literally under the age of 18, and may be already six foot tall, but has not finished school, many times doesn’t have the same resources, and may have been involved in some kind of gang activity that has increased that vulnerability. One of the things that really drew my attention to your presentation was linking this to child soldiers. We hosted one of the Sudanese children that were child soldiers, for a semester here at Vanguard, and we learned so much about how their forced labor, forced soldiering experience, was built on coercion and force. We glibly say, “There are three elements of human trafficking, force, fraud, and coercion,” but for a child with no resources, in a country at war, so that all the systems that might exist are broken down, then you begin to see the desperation, and nobody argues that. That’s why I loved moving from this focus on youth in forced labor to this parallel. Can you flesh that out a little bit more for me?

Anabel Martinez 10:50
Yes, and I also want to touch on one point you said earlier. These are youth who are under 18, under 21, and there’s been many studies done that show that the brain is not fully developed until 26. I think when I did my data, the youngest person in juvenile hall was 13 years old. So how is a 13 year old being held in a juvenile hall without there being any assessment as to what happened? But in terms of the child soldiers, when I started doing my research for my white paper, that’s something that I started to think about. There’s very much a parallel between child soldiers and youth who are involved in gangs. The more that I looked into it, the more I could see those parallels in the sense that, child soldiers are considered a form of child trafficking because the acts required of the child soldier are dangerous, they interfere with their fundamental human rights to education. And if you see the reasons for why a child soldier becomes a child soldier, and why some youth decide to join gangs or are in gangs, they start to look the same, in terms of that they’re looking for a sense of belonging, they’re looking for protection, they live in an area where that might be the only choice, or they didn’t have a choice, it’s either you join or your life is in peril. And then, forcing kids to stay both within an army or in a gang, the same the same tactics are used. Other eople are punished in front of them to instill fear upon them, they’re manipulated, they’re brought in very young. They’re they’re made to feel like that’s their only choice. I think the more you look into those issues, the more you look into the reasons for why that happens, the more you start to see that. I see the US recognizing this outside of our country, but we’re not willing to look inward and see the same dynamics are happening within certain areas of our country, and we really need to start looking at that, from that perspective.

Sandra Morgan 12:41
So you mentioned gangs, and we’ve seen a lot of evidence of that in many, many municipalities here in California and in other states. But for youth that are coming across the border, escaping violence and then find themselves here, exposed to further violence, is there a parallel in labor trafficking, forced criminality, and the prevalence of immigrant youth being victims?

Anabel Martinez 13:19
I’m part of Freedom Network USA, which is like a lot of different nonprofits or service providers that work with human trafficking survivors. They recently released their, every couple years they aggregate the data of who’s being served, and their service providers have seen an increase in youth who are undocumented seeking out services from them. We are seeing an increase in just undocumented youth in general, needing help because they’re being trafficked. Something that we’re seeing, which right now is anecdotal because we need to collect more data, that’s something we’re always asking for, is data. But there does seem to be an increase of youth who are from Latin America or Central America, being forced to sell drugs, and that being the labor trafficking that they’re being forced to commit. Some people are recognizing it as such, but other people are still not connecting the dots that that’s what’s happening there.

Sandra Morgan 14:15
When these youth are picked up, where did they take them? Do they take them to juvenile detention, where do they take them, an what kind of court do they end up in?

Anabel Martinez 14:29
Essentially unless there’s an assessment made, yes, that’s where they would end up, is juvenile detention. Potentially, if they have an immigration case open, or if they don’t, that could be the next step, is that they’re then referred to immigration court or immigration proceedings, depending on what the issue is. That’s something that puts them severely in danger of them being sent back to a country that they were fleeing in the first place, because they were probably facing similar threats back in their home country.

Sandra Morgan 14:58
Do we see any remedies in the unaccompanied minor resources?

Anabel Martinez 15:05
If there’s an uaccompanied minor, essentially, when they get here they should be able to apply for CDSSf if they don’t have a parent or another parent. But in terms of being able to qualify for that, you have to have, when immigration is called, good moral character. You have to show that you’re someone who’s worthy of being allowed to be in this country. So any crimes that you commit sometimes weigh against that. You then have to apply for a waiver to see if they would be willing to forgive whatever it is that is in your criminal record, even if you were never arrested for it, those are crimes that they look into. That’s the risk right there, that maybe they might qualify for this remedy, but then they won’t be able to get that remedy because their trafficking experience was not recognized as trafficking, and they were charged with that instead of it being something like, “Hey, this is actually a victim of labor trafficking by forced criminality, let’s not put them through this criminal legal system that’s going to maybe x them out of this opportunity.”

Sandra Morgan 16:07
That’s why vacature and similar movements are so helpful because they were wrongfully charged. I just don’t like using the word charged for a kid, but I don’t know any other way.

Anabel Martinez 16:25
There’s also the T-Visa, so they could also apply, essentially, for a T-Visa, it just doesn’t seem to be the way. But again, you also have to be asking for this waiver. I would even take it a step further and say that, I mean for everyone, I think people are more open since we’re already doing it for youth who are survivors of CSEC. We have the safe harbor law in California, where they’re not supposed to be charged for anything related to prostitution, they’re supposed to be recognized as a survivor of trafficking. I would ask that the same Safe Harbor law also be extended for youth who identify as being victims of labor trafficking by forced criminality, because even putting them through that, to the point where they’re where they’re potentially being charged for something they were forced to commit by the person who’s causing them harm or trafficking them, I don’t think should happen, so we should be able to stop them from even entering the system in the first place.

Sandra Morgan 17:18
That’s wonderful. I love that. Okay, so let’s shift to another population of really vulnerable youth. On this podcast, we’ve discussed the Covenant House study findings a couple of times back in 2016 and a few different approaches. Let’s talk about labor trafficking, forced criminality, and homeless youth.

Anabel Martinez 17:49
Thank you for mentioning the Covenant studies, because they have been super helpful, the 2016 and the 2023, for me in providing data that, like I said, data is always really hard to find, specifically on this topic. We are seeing more and more data coming out, but still, not as many as we have related to sex trafficking or CSEC. I believe the 2016 study showed that of the youth who were experiencing labor trafficking, 81% of those youth were experiencing labor trafficking by forced criminality in the form of being forced to sell drugs. We’re seeing a high percentage of homeless youth who are being labor trafficked, who are experiencing labor trafficking by forced criminality by selling drugs. I think that’s an indicator, ideally, we would be screening all youth who come through the criminal legal system for labor trafficking by forced criminality, but even if that’s not possible or whatnot, at least if you’re seeing a drug crime, or a drug charge, or anything related to that, that raises like, “Hey, maybe this is a youth that I need to look further into and not just automatically label as a criminal or as a delinquent.”

Sandra Morgan 18:56
So what kind of screening tools are available?

Anabel Martinez 18:59
Right now there are a few that are trying to develop more concise screening tools. I’ll send you some of the links that we have to them, sorry, I can’t remember them off the top of my head. But there is a study being conducted by a researcher from NYU who’s working with public defenders to do a study, to flesh out a study, a research-based screening tool for labor trafficking by forced criminality. I believe it’s adults only so hopefully from that, we’ll be able to get one that’s more youth-specific. It has been hard to find one that we’re able to recommend to people. One of the things we always say is, the simplest thing you can ask a youth when you encounter them when you suspect this is happening, is, is there someone else who’s benefiting from from you doing this? Is there someone else who is getting your money? Is the money, or whatever the benefit of the crime was, is there another third person, a third party who’s benefited from it as well? I think just asking that question in the terms that that youth is going to understand, and when the youth feels ready to talk to you about it, that would open up so much. That whenever people ask us that question, even just that simple question, should be able to give you so much information.

Sandra Morgan 20:11
It’s so complicated to create screening tools. We interviewed Dr. Corey Rood here, just about the process and then I talked to people in administration, in juvenile justice and probation in schools. I think these are issues that school counselors and resources, they can all see and identify if they have the tools, but creating those screening tools take time and resources. It’s easier to raise funds to provide direct services because the stories are so compelling, but if we don’t put more value on how to identify, they just keep passing right by us, and their situation gets more and more dire, and then they age out of the opportunity to take advantage of resources. You can tell I’m getting a little passionate about this, so we have to figure out how to identify earlier. How do we maybe just add one question, the one you just gave us, to an existing screening protocol in whatever your department is? In your local youth programs, whether you’re here in the US, or in Europe, or in Africa, or Asia. This is so important for the future generations, that they don’t actually get pretty much disqualified from pursuing the future of their dreams, from education, from becoming entrepreneurs. In another interview we did with Susan Kennedy from NCMEC, we talked about other forms of coercion through sextortion online. And then, “Okay well, if you can’t pay me, then you have to go make this drug delivery,” which falls into this same labor trafficking, forced criminality. Can you talk about what you learned from the Harvard Medical School study? That was fascinating.

Anabel Martinez 22:34
Yeah, I think one of the things that stood out to me the most, which I think we already know, but just to have the data, is that over half of the kids who were identified as having experienced trafficking, have been involved in the child welfare system at some point in their lives. I feel like that shows that that’s a missed opportunity, or maybe a factor into why they found themselves in the situation that they found. If we are able to train child welfare agencies throughout the nation or throughout the state on labor trafficking by forced criminality, imagine how many kids we’ll be able to identify and help. It also shows that one of the other issues was that 90% of the children lack adult relationships, just showing how important it is for a child to have a connection to an adult who’s able to guide them and provide them the help. Sometimes because they lack that, they think they found someone else who’s going to be able to provide that for them, but it’s not that, it ends up being an exploitative relationship. Another interesting fact was that 83% of labor trafficking victims faced arrest before the age of 22, so this is happening to them at a very young age. 56% of them were under the age of 18 when they were being trafficked and the youngest person, I believe, was seven years old.

Sandra Morgan 23:53
The key word, I want everybody, if you’re driving don’t do this, but when you’re at your desk, write down the word “missed opportunity.’ Start a little notebook about the missed opportunities, because this data shows how young they start down the path where they have fewer and fewer options. How can we find ways to leverage the opportunities when they’re there? We are often overwhelmed because we have way too many tasks, we have too many, but is there a missed opportunity today? Is there one kid, 18 or seven that we can send on a different path to provide those options? In our juvenile justice system, rehabilitation is built in. It’s baked into how we define justice. It’s not about how to put them in prison, it’s about how to make things more right for their future. I think we have a lot of missed opportunities. When you said this in the presentation I attended recently, that was one of my big takeaways. How do I find those missed opportunities? And honestly, systemically, it’s going to take us, I’m very pragmatic, a long time to get those screening tools in place. They have to be evidence-based. Go back and listen to Dr. Rood. I don’t have time for that but I’m trying to be very patient, and I want all of our healthcare professionals, and our social workers, our educators, to be partnering on those kinds of tools so that everyday people can do this. But in the meantime, we are really depending on individuals, those adults who see a child and say, “We need to look at this a little bit more,” and it changes their whole life. If you’re in the US and you see that, and there is nobody in your community, nobody in your department, just call the hotline and they’ll connect you to somebody. There’s always a way, and we’ll put links to that as well. Anabel, I do know that there are amazing examples in your research. Can we have just one story?

Anabel Martinez 26:47
Yes. Some of the stories that we highlighted within our white paper are actually from the Covenant House studies, that we felt really brought home the issues that we were talking about. One of them is a quote from the 2016 study, which is, “It’s like a job where you have a schedule and you have to meet a quota, you have to sell a certain amount in a certain amount of time, or you get threatened and smacked around, or whatever. There’s times where they freak out and spaz, and they scare you and stuff, smack someone else around in front of you, show you that they’re powerful and stuff, just mentally, you can’t go anywhere. I’ve seen it happen to other people, where you can’t get out, and if you get out, you end up in the hospital for a while.”

Sandra Morgan 27:30
Wow.

Anabel Martinez 27:31
So it’s like stories that we have heard from probably youth who are involved in the delinquency system, but we’re not really being like, “Hmm, what is going on here?” We’re not recognizing it for what it is, which is, there’s some coercion going on here, there’s some psychological tactics going on here, that we’re able to see within the context of maybe CSEC youth, but we can seem to recognize it within this context.

Sandra Morgan 27:53
And what happens to the youth in some of my conversations, is when they are recovered from that situation, they have this sense, “Now there’s someone, the good guys, and they’re going to help me,” and instead, they’re put on probation, they have all kinds of restrictions, and they’re put into rehabilitation programs. For me, you all have listened to me for years, talk about if these are children who have found themselves in our systems where we’ve already identified that they have had a very challenging, early start to life, and now we’re talking about rehabilitation. But they often have attachment issues and suffered malnutrition, suffered trauma from abuse, and so they need building from the ground up. We can’t just hang pictures on a wall that does not exist. Lots of our rehabilitation programs assume they learned that self-control, they learned self-regulation, they have the ability to imagine that if they’re in trouble, somebody’s going to come and help them, which is a key element of attachment. I want to remind us that there are opportunities that we are missing, that are right here and don’t take a huge program, they just take individuals to do that. I want to ask you one more question, Anabel, what have you changed your mind on?

Anabel Martinez 29:50
Well, I grew up in southeast LA. I don’t know if people are familiar with LA, but a lot of my family lived in Compton and south LA, so there was always this bias and perception of folks who were involved in gangs, even if they were young, this negative perception, right? You were just like, they’re bad, or they’re just people you don’t want to hang out with. You just automatically, any kind of tie to a gang, any tie to criminality, you’re just like, “Okay, I’m staying away.” And I think through my work, I have really been challenging those biases that I grew up in, and I understand that maybe back then that was a way my family was trying to keep me safe. But I think as I’ve gone into my work and learned more about this, I learned that you can’t assume or automatically label someone. You have to first see their humanity and question what made that person, or how did that person get to that point where they felt that that was what they needed to do or where they needed to be. I’ve learned to challenge my own perceptions and biases when I when it comes to this issue, and to help others within my family and within my work, and within my communities, to also do the same. Because I think we really have to take accountability for ourselves and the biases that we allow, to sometimes prevent us from helping people that really need our help.

Sandra Morgan 31:10
I’m going to sit in that for a while and take some time to check my own biases. Thank you for that. Wow. So much to dive into here. Anabel, how can people connect with you? How do we add our voices to support this passion you have?

Anabel Martinez 31:31
Well, definitely. I would love it if you all could read my White Paper, and if you have any questions or you want to have a conversation, I’ll make sure that my email can be shared so you are able to contact me, and you should be able to follow our Sunita Jain Anti-Trafficking Initiative on both Instagram and X. We’re just trying to grow our social media base, but we are trying to be more active and post more. You can find us on both with the same handle, which is @sunitajainlls, meaning Loyola Law School, so you can definitely find us there. I think a way to help is, if you are someone who’s in charge of providing trainings on human trafficking, that you include labor trafficking, and that you include labor trafficking by forced criminality, even if it’s just one or two slides. I think that will make all the difference because we want to make sure we’re acknowledging all the spectrum of human trafficking that exists, and the fact that usually, the person does not experience just one form of exploitation. There could be many forms of exploitations, and we need to recognize that and not just focus on one specifically, because then we’re not helping them with the other issues that they’re also facing.

Sandra Morgan 32:40
Thank you so much, Anabel, we’re going to put links to everything you just mentioned in the show notes. I also want to ask our listeners to take this interview and pass it on to someone else. Let’s help the Sunita Jain Initiative grow. We need to be voices for our youth and make sure that we are not missing opportunities to change the trajectory of their lives, which changes their communities. Thank you, Anabel.

Anabel Martinez 33:19
Thank you so much. I really had a great time with you today, and thank you for allowing me to talk about this topic. As you can see, I’m very passionate about it and I just really appreciate being here.

Sandra Morgan 33:29
I’m grateful you came today. And for our listeners, if this is your first time, please go to our website, endinghumantrafficking.org, sign up for the podcast as a subscriber, and every two weeks, you’ll get the show notes. Go to gcwj.org to learn more about opportunities to take our anti-human trafficking certificate, and get involved in learning how you can become part of the solution as we study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference. I’ll be back in two weeks.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Ambassador John Cotton Richmond as the two discuss the 2024 Trafficking in Persons Report.

John Cotton RichmondAmbassador Richmond is an attorney and diplomat focused on ethical business, human rights, democracy, and rule of law. He served in the country’s highest position dedicated to combating human trafficking as a U.S. Ambassador where he led U.S. foreign policy in the global fight for freedom. As a Partner at Dentons, Ambassador Richmond helps companies keep their supply chains and workforces free of human trafficking. He was named one of the federal “Prosecutors of the Year,” after a decade successfully trying complex police misconduct, cross-burning, neo-Nazi hate crimes, forced labor, and sex trafficking cases across the country. Ambassador Richmond is a Senior Fellow at the Atlantic Council, frequent expert for the United Nations, and frequent speaker on justice, freedom, leadership, faith, and vocation.

Key Points* The TIP Report evaluates 188 countries on their anti-trafficking efforts, including prosecution, protection, and prevention, and ranks them based on their progress compared to previous years. * The rankings influence U.S. foreign policy, with tier three countries facing sanctions. Victim identification has improved with 133,943 victims identified this year, but this number represents less than 0.5% of estimated global victims. * The TIP Report notes a rise in identified labor trafficking victims (31% of the total), highlighting a shift from primarily sex trafficking cases. The report does not specify industries, but labor trafficking occurs in various sectors, including domestic work and agriculture. * Although prosecutions have slightly increased to 18,074, they are still below previous highs. Convictions remain significantly lower compared to past years, indicating insufficient accountability for traffickers. * Despite regulations, victim identification remains low due to unfunded or underfunded mandates. Improved funding and strategic resource allocation are necessary to increase victim identification and support. * The TIP Report emphasizes both the challenges and opportunities technology presents in combating trafficking. It also highlights the importance of including survivors in anti-trafficking efforts, recognizing their unique perspectives and contributions to the fight against trafficking.

Resources* 267- The Intersection of Business and Human Rights, with John Cotton Richmond * 241 – Ambassador-at-Large John Cotton Richmond: Looking Forward * 137 – Interview with Prosecutors: John Cotton Richmond & Victor Boutros * 2024 Trafficking in Persons Report * Atlas Free * Libertas Council * Everfree Freedom Life Map * U.S. Advisory Council on Human Trafficking * UNODC

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:14
You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode #326: Reading Between the Lines of the 2024 U.S. TIP Report, with Ambassador John Cotton Richmond. Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I am so glad to welcome back John Cotton Richmond. His career has taken him to the front lines in the global battle against human trafficking. He’s been on this podcast more than anybody else. His three previous podcasts will be in the show notes, in case you want to go back and listen. Welcome back, Ambassador Richmond. Let us know what you’ve been doing these days.

John Cotton Richmond 1:24
Sandie, it’s so good to be back with you, and I’m really excited to talk about this year’s Trafficking in Persons Report. I’m currently working with an organization called Atlas Free, and they gather anti-trafficking organizations together in a network centered around a strategic framework to improve everyone’s efforts in the battle against trafficking. It’s been a delight. I’m also working on a special project I started with some friends, called the Libertas Council, which is really trying to help leaders move from just agreeing that trafficking is wrong and become champions who take action to make sure that we can do something about this crime.

Sandra Morgan 2:02
Wow, I’m actually intrigued with this idea of how we become champions that bring about action, not just aspirational motivation. Go get them. So I’m looking forward to hear more about that, but right now I know our listening audience, our community, is really interested in your take on the 2024 Trafficking in Persons Report. We’ll start with, can you give me an overall summary of your response to this year’s report? Something that you really identified.

John Cotton Richmond 2:44
I think it’s important for people to know that Trafficking in Persons Report is put out annually by the State Department, and it does many things. It includes a narrative report about 188 countries around the world and how they’re doing on combating trafficking, looking at both prosecution as well as protection and prevention, and then make some prioritized recommendations for each country. It also gives every country a ranking, tier one, tier two, tier two watch list, and tier three. Those rankings are how a country is doing compared to its own previous efforts the year before. It’s not comparing countries to each other, it’s actually just comparing a country to its own prior efforts. So if a country is improving, if they’re doing more, their ranking might go up, and if they’re doing less on this issue, it might go down. I think this year’s TIP Report captured a great deal of interesting information about how governments are doing on trafficking.

Sandra Morgan 3:43
I have a question. Those rankings, are they just for on paper, or do they have some sort of consequence, impact?

John Cotton Richmond 3:53
The rankings have a significant impact on how we carry out our foreign policy related to human trafficking around the world. Countries want to be ranked higher. That can create an incentive for them to take up the recommendations that we’ve given, but they can also act as a stick in a sense. The tier three rankings come along with sanctions. That is, a country who’s on tier three is not going to get any non humanitarian funding from the US government. Now the president, each year gets to give full or partial waivers to some countries that might be on tier three, but those waivers have not been decided yet, that will happen at the end of September. One of the encouraging things in this year’s TIP Report has to be around victim identification. We’ve been deeply concerned that victims are not getting identified, and if a victim goes unidentified, they’re not getting access to services, their traffickers can’t be held accountable. Really, we all start with can we identify the victims that are around us? The estimate from the United Nations is that there’s 27.6 million victims of sex trafficking and forced labor around the world. And this year, we got a new number from governments about their ability to identify victims, and it was 133,943 victims were identified during the reporting period. That’s the most it’s ever been. It’s up from 115,000 last year, which was our previous high. I think we can celebrate the good incremental progress that we are identifying more victims, but I think we have to do that in the context of realizing how many victims still go unidentified. Although 133,000 is an improvement from where we’ve been, that still means that we’re identifying less than half of 1% of all the victims that we estimate to exist. It’s actually .48% of the victims. So it’s incremental progress, but I think we have to look at that in light of there is so much more to do, and we need governments to do it, we need NGOs to do it, we need communities to come together and make sure that victim identification is prioritized. One thing that is also notable is that of the victims that were identified, 31% of them were labor trafficking victims. That’s much higher than we’ve normally seen. We spent a lot of time talking about the hidden crisis in labor trafficking, whereas sex trafficking victims, those cases get more attention from from prosecutors and governments, but labor trafficking victims often get left behind, and so we’re seeing an increase in the number of labor trafficking victims that are being identified.

Sandra Morgan 6:35
What industries? What does that look like? And can you parse out for us the differences in some of the labor trafficking terminology?

John Cotton Richmond 6:49
The TIP report doesn’t break that down and disaggregate the data so we know what industries that 31% of identified victims came from, but in the narratives, they talk about different forms of labor trafficking all over the world. We see forced labor as domestic workers who are isolated from communities, often far from home, and their housing, their food, and their work is all controlled by the house owner. We see it in factories, farms, front businesses like massage parlors or nail salons. You can have forced labor in virtually any industry, it’s really the traffickers decision where they want to exploit people and where the trafficker chooses to engage them in commerce. And if they’re doing that in a business, if they’re doing that in a field that’s that’s growing, agriculture, if they’re doing that in a factory that is making things, the trafficker has taken the agency away from the victim, and is choosing to engage in this economically motivated crime in virtually any industry that’s out there,

Sandra Morgan 7:50
Just locally, within two miles and 19 miles, we’ve had labor trafficking cases in the poultry processing industry, in illegal cannabis growing in empty warehouses, or at least they look empty, and yet people are sleeping there and being forced to work, and don’t even realize that there are people that would help them. I’m encouraged by the growing number of labor trafficking identifications, but I’m pretty discouraged that we’re at 0.48%.

John Cotton Richmond 8:34
Yeah, less than half of 1% are being identified. So we’ve got a long way to go, a long way to go. Another thing that was interesting this year is that we saw prosecutions rebound a bit. They’re still not up to the high of 2015 when we had 19,127 prosecutions, but we’re at 18,074, so we’re getting back up. Convictions, overall, are still way off their high of 2020 by about 25%. We’re seeing less energy put towards holding traffickers accountable, and that impunity that traffickers enjoy only means that they’re going to harm worse, more victims.

Sandra Morgan 9:16
So how are we going to light a fire under our court systems?

John Cotton Richmond 9:22
I think it’s political will. When people decide that this is an issue they care about and they let policy makers and funders know, people will pay attention. We need to make sure that police, investigators, prosecutors, social workers, victim witness specialists, everyone that’s involved in the criminal justice system, that they have the resources they need, and they have the bandwidth to go in and take care of these cases, and make sure they do it in a trauma informed and victim centered way. If we prioritize it, it will be done. And if we don’t prioritize it, we’ll continue to get the type of numbers that we’re getting. I say all that with the caveat that of course, prosecution is not sufficient. It’s not the end all, and it will not fix all the problems, but without holding traffickers accountable, we’re not going to get to a place where we’re making a dent in this issue.

Sandra Morgan 10:16
We talked before we started this interview, about the great mandated regulations, laws, but we aren’t seeing a big bump in victim identification. What needs to happen in order to see that happen?

John Cotton Richmond 10:40
I think there is a challenge of unfunded mandates, or underfunded mandates, where governments have said, “We’re tasking agencies with this responsibility to go and do something significant about caring for survivors, about doing trainings, about holding traffickers accountable,” and then they don’t have the resources that they need in order to carry out the mandate they’ve been given. I think we need to make sure that every time we ask folks to do things, that we’re giving them the resources they need to go and get it done.

Sandra Morgan 11:11
Do you have some ideas about how we can move the needle forward on funding? What is mandated? I work with a lot of students. I just came back from taking a student team to Greece. Spent four days working with our US Embassies, met wonderful people doing great work with very limited resources, and yet, then when they read about their their tier levels and things, they want to make it to a higher level, but resources are a big piece of that. How are we going to turn the tide there?

John Cotton Richmond 11:53
I think we can do it by focusing the monies that we have out there, and deciding that we’re not going to be able to prioritize everything simultaneously. There’s going to have to be some trade offs. So which things are we going to put at the top tier priority? I think human liberty ought to be at that very top tier, and say, “We’re going to fund these things,” and actually take take a significant step towards combating human trafficking, and making sure that everyone who’s trapped has a chance to become free and live out their life, and flourish in whatever their talent and desires are. But when we try to do everything all at once, we find ourselves really restricted and unable to do many things well.

Sandra Morgan 12:34
So if a task force in a big city like Los Angeles wants to make a big difference, where would they start with refining how they allocate resources?

John Cotton Richmond 12:54
I would encourage them to think through, how can we identify more victims? What would be two or three interventions to focus on where we can increase victim identification, whether it’s from hospitals or schools or through engagement with the criminal justice system, perhaps people that are already detained, figuring out where are victims? How do we have a screening mechanism that would help us identify more people, then we can give them help? But I would focus in on a couple of different interventions and push energy and resources towards them. So instead of funding 10 projects at 10% a piece, focus in on funding one or two projects at a much healthier percentage.

Sandra Morgan 13:33
That’s so wise, but so hard to do because there’s so many different voices clamoring that “My group needs this” and, “My group needs that,” and so I think it’s going to take really strong leadership that develops those goals. I do think that the TIP Report does give us some guidance in that area. One of the areas that’s become much more visible here in the US, and when I was in Europe recently, a lot of conversation was around recruiting online and the exploitation happening online. The UN, our Congress here in California, we’re all talking about technology. It’s like no one has a plan for how we’re going to consistently identify victims and do prevention. How do you feel that the TIP Report may have informed that or do you have a solution in your back pocket?

John Cotton Richmond 14:39
Well, the theme of this year’s TIP Report was technology and trafficking, both looking at how traffickers are using technology, as well as how people of goodwill who want to come alongside and help can use technology in this way. One thing that I think is important for us to realize is traffickers have always used cutting edge technology throughout the years. As soon as they can get ships’ hulls sturdy enough for Trans Atlantic travel, they were using ships to move people into slavery. When the printing press came and they begin to use printed materials in order to find and coerce victims, phone, internet, everything is the same. Traffickers are going to be using each iteration of technology to improve their illegal business model as they try to trap people, we just have to be equally responsive and find technological ways that we can disrupt traffickers work, how we can identify more victims, and how we can hold more traffickers accountable. Technology, I think, is going to be used by both sides in this battle, we just have to make sure that the people of goodwill are taking advantage of the technological opportunities out there.

Sandra Morgan 15:48
So along with technology, I’ve been privileged to sit at the table with my academic colleagues, and they are just so excited about the data that is available to mine, so it’s like the other side of the issue. I have this sense that we’re sitting in a place where research and data can inform exactly what you were talking about. If we have limited resources, how can we target two or three goals? Well, if we have more data around labor in poultry factories, then maybe we’re identifying and training people in those industries. I think that’s what I’m looking for.

John Cotton Richmond 16:51
I think it’s a great example of how data could be used, as we’re seeing other groups use technology to gather data, just about how victim services work. Everfree is developing a tool called Freedom Life Map that allows caregivers to determine, what does a survivor believe the greatest needs that they have are, and how can they tailor the care towards that? And they’re using a piece of technology to help facilitate the moving of that information. There are other examples like that, but as we gather better data, we’re going to be able to detect themes, we’re going to be able to see the trends, and we’re going to be able to help more people.

Sandra Morgan 17:29
How are we going to fund all of that research to be able to focus? Because this scarcity mentality is part of our challenge and the strategies of prioritizing and getting things moving towards one direction is helpful, but if we can’t fund the research, how do we reliably direct the limited resources that we have?

John Cotton Richmond 18:02
I’d love to think that we can have an abundance mentality instead of a scarcity mentality, and that we want to see funding come into this space, and not just from government leaders. We want to see private philanthropy step in and foundations step in, and continue to take a bigger and bigger swing at this issue. There’s a lot of opportunity to engage, tell the story of what is possible, and encourage private philanthropy to step up, as well as trying to get more appropriations through Congress.

Sandra Morgan 18:36
I like that. Okay, let’s talk about how you perceive the inclusion of survivors in this particular report. I love the survivor stories, personally, I always love those. But can you give us a little bit of insight?

John Cotton Richmond 18:55
I think this TIP report continues to prioritize survivor engagement and centering survivors in this fight. We know that people who have experienced trafficking and have had a trafficker actually take away their liberty, and control not just when they wake up, but where they work and who gets to touch their bodies, ghey look at this differently. We want to honor their experience, we want to honor their insights, we want to honor their opinions about how this work could be done. One thing that I appreciate is we obviously have the US Advisory Council, which is a group of survivors. Many other organizations have created survivor councils, have employed survivors, have moved them into leadership in the organizations, and what this gives is incredible perspective. The TIP report highlights different ways that governments around the world have tried to include survivors with a seat at the table. One thing I appreciate is whenever we get multiple survivors together, we also get disagreement. They’re smart. Their opinions vary sometimes, and they have different approaches just like the rest of us. I think it’s important not just to have one or two survivors, but to get many survivors involved and appreciate all the different perspectives that they’re going to bring

Sandra Morgan 20:09
I love that. The idea of so many different stakeholders, though, is also a lot more work for those trying to make a significant difference on the ground. What you talked about with getting us to focus on two or three priorities, we spend a lot of time trying to decide what those two or three priorities are going to be, and then we also end up with a government. We have a federal strategic plan, a state, and a county, and they may not actually converge, they may actually collide. My recent conversations, particularly with victim service providers, they’re looking for some encouragement in how we do this in this next iteration. Before the next tip report or UNODC report, how are we going to see the number of victims identified increase? What can I say to those NGO and service providers that will encourage them, because what I’m starting to see is burnout and compassion fatigue. Is there something in this report that gives a glimmer of hope?

John Cotton Richmond 21:44
I think there are glimmers of hope out there, but I do appreciate that burnout is real, compassion fatigue is real. I think people are willing to draw near to difficulty and pain if they believe that they can do something about it. And I think what we have to do is make sure we’re giving people hope that there is a possibility, there is success. I think the increased victim identification number is definitely a step in the right direction. If we can just keep increasing year after year, that will be better. I think the increased numbers on forced labor that were in this year’s TIP Report are also encouraging, that we’re identifying more people in different types of sectors. That represents a lot of work that people have put in over the last several years, and I think we can take some encouragement from that. I also think that we’ve got lots of different options for victim identification. Whether we think about education programs in schools, hospitals and staff being trained on these things, but we need to create that funnel where more and more people are doing an analysis, conducting a screening, making sure that they are engaging with people to determine if they might have indicators of human trafficking, and then they know what to do when they see those indicators. There are more and more opportunities. I think one big aspect of victim identification is to include law enforcement in that, in terms of the trainings, in terms of the funnel of victim identification.

Sandra Morgan 23:12
in your experience globally, do you have a sense that law enforcement training for victim identification has increased, or if there are things that we as a community can drive more of the will for that.

John Cotton Richmond 23:33
There have been lots of police trainings on trauma informed investigative techniques of human trafficking indicators. We need to keep doing that. Obviously, like in any government agency, people get transferred, positions change, there’s a consistent need for training. But it’s not just training about the issue, it’s training on what could specifically be done, and what do you do if you see indicators of trafficking? And how can we make sure that where we see vulnerable communities, we’re paying particular interest about seeing if people are being trafficked in those industries?

Sandra Morgan 24:07
What are some industries that we are neglecting, particularly in the labor trafficking realm,

John Cotton Richmond 24:16
I think you would have to include the agricultural industry. It’s a very difficult industry to do traditional surveillance on and gather information. The work is by definition, seasonal, and so people move very quickly. So I think agriculture presents lots of challenges for victim identification. I think domestic work also presents lots of challenges, because it is such an isolating job to do. I think you would also have to say that anytime commercial sex is being sold, there’s a huge overlap with sex trafficking, and identifying children as well as adults that are being sold for commercial sex is something that more attention should be paid to.

Sandra Morgan 24:57
Ambassador John Cotton Richmond, here’s my final question today. You’ve been on the front line of this battle for a few decades. What have you changed your mind about?

John Cotton Richmond 25:12
That’s such a good question, Sandie. I think when I first started working on this I was living in India, it felt so over whelming. When I finally got my mind around the scope and the breadth of the problem, and how complicated it was, it just felt over whelming. I think what I changed my mind about is that I no longer feel like it’s overwhelming. Instead, having seen survivors shift away from their traffickers, stand up for themselves, recover from their trauma, thrive into independence, I’ve realized that we don’t need to be tormented by the overwhelming nature of the problem, we just have to be consistently working to do something about it. I’ve seen this happen with NGOs around the world that are truly changing people’s lives. I’ve seen policy advocates trying to change systems, and making progress. We’ve seen massive changes in the law. I mean, just since 2000 we’ve seen every country in the world now, put together some sort of law that says human trafficking is illegal. What I want is, I want traffickers to feel like the wave of people coming who are committed to freedom, feels overwhelming to them. That their trafficking crime, which they’ve enjoyed as a high reward, low risk crime, shifts and becomes a high risk, low reward crime. But it’s going to take a community that is committed to doing that, that decides we’re not going to be overwhelmed by the amount of exploitation, but instead we’re going to be overwhelmed by the amount of hope that is coming into the world.

Sandra Morgan 27:01
Drop the mic. Perfect. Wow. Okay, so with that, I’m just going say thank you so much. Now for our community, our listeners, we’re inviting you to take the next step and go over to the endinghumantrafficking.org website, and you can find the links to the episodes that we mentioned. Episode #267: The Intersection of Business and Human Rights, episode #241: Ambassador-at-Large, John Cotton Richmond Looking Forward, and way back episode #137: Interview with Prosecutors. I also want to mention that you can look up the Freedom Lifemap map that Everfree is doing. We did an interview that Ambassador Richmond just mentioned as well. I hope you’ll become a subscriber, so that you’ll get an email with the show notes every time a new episode drops. We’ll be back in two weeks. Thanks, everybody.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Dr. Alexis Kennedy as the two discuss the importance of self care within the parameters of professional careers.

Dr. Alexis KennedyDr. Alexis Kennedy is a forensic psychology researcher, and professor at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. She has led federal and state grants to study violence against women and children, and as an expert with more than 30 years of working with human trafficking victims, she knows intimately the risks of developing burnout and compassion fatigue. Dr. Alexis Kennedy works with first responders, health care workers, attorneys, and other helping professionals throughout the US and Canada to stay in important but difficult work without sacrificing their own health.

Key Points* Burnout and compassion fatigue can take an emotional toll on professionals working with human trafficking victims, that can lead to significant mental and physical exhaustion. * Dr. Kennedy emphasizes that self-care is crucial for maintaining effectiveness in high-stress jobs. Professionals must recognize the need to recharge and manage their well-being to avoid burnout. This includes developing healthy routines and taking breaks. * Physical and emotional signs of burnout include changes in sleep patterns, appetite, digestive issues, and chronic pain. These symptoms are indicators that stress is impacting one’s health and should be addressed proactively. * Vicarious trauma can affect individuals who work closely with trauma survivors as the secondary exposure to trauma can be as damaging as direct trauma, leading to symptoms similar to PTSD. * Dr. Kennedy provides practical advice for managing stress, such as maintaining a consistent sleep schedule, creating a calming bedtime routine, and avoiding blue light before sleep. She also mentions the importance of finding balance and avoiding overwork. * Peer support plays an important role in recognizing and addressing mental health issues, including suicide risk. Tools like the Columbia Lighthouse Protocol can help identify individuals in need of support and facilitate appropriate interventions.

Resources* Compassion Recharge * Alexis Kennedy * The Columbia Lighthouse Project * Trauma Recovery Yoga

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:14
You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode #325: The Cost of Burnout with Dr. Alexis Kennedy. Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I am so excited to welcome Dr. Alexis Kennedy to be with us today. She is a forensic psychology researcher, and professor at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. She has led federal and state grants to study violence against women and children, and as an expert with more than 30 years of working with human trafficking victims, she knows intimately the risks of developing burnout and compassion fatigue. She works with first responders, health care workers, attorneys, and other helping professionals throughout the US and Canada to stay in important but difficult work without sacrificing their own health. Dr. Kennedy, I am so excited to have this conversation today. Welcome.

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 1:52
Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Sandra Morgan 1:55
So you can call me Sandie, can I call you Alexis?

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 1:58
Absolutely.

Sandra Morgan 1:59
Okay. So when I first heard about you, I had been in Las Vegas meeting Judge William Voy who had started a CSEC court, commercially sexually exploited children, and he was really on the cutting edge of looking at these kids with a different lens. You’ve been there from the get go with him, it’s like you’ve been swimming in trauma for decades. Can you give us a very tiny glimpse of that?

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 2:36
I actually started working in this area before it was called human trafficking, it was simply prostitution, exploitation through prostitution back then, and I’d been doing it for a decade before I even moved to Las Vegas. I was really shocked when I got to Las Vegas, how different the kids were being treated than you see in other countries. They were being criminalized and treated very differently. So of course, I jumped in to try and make a change. The thing is that these are really difficult stories to hear, these are really difficult situations. People who want to learn about it, want to help, we do it because we care, but there’s a cost to hearing these difficult stories, a cost to trying to change systems that are very slow to change, and that does take a toll on your mind and body, whether you notice it or not.

Sandra Morgan 3:24
When I started talking to you recently, you used a phrase. It captured my attention and I am sure there are going to be people listening, that have been with us for decades in this, and you use the phrase “getting out and handing it on?” Why do you need to get out?

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 3:47
Well I’ve been, 32 years now, hearing these stories, interviewing, taking information, and even if you have the best sort of reset button or way to process and hold all those stories, eventually you’re going to fill up how much you can take and how much you can handle. But it’s hard to leave when we feel like we’re the one with the answers, which is a problem with ego. I mean, that’s the exciting thing about education and the growing awareness around human trafficking, when there’s more people at the table, then we’ll be able to say, “Here’s my knowledge, here’s my expertise, here’s my suggestions, I’m going to step aside and hand the baton off to you.”

Sandra Morgan 4:31
That’s so healthy because burnout, what are some of the risks for burnout?

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 4:38
Burnout is something that can happen in any career and any job. It really is the idea that your body and mind and emotions are overwhelmed, and we can’t really address it if we don’t know where the source of stress is coming from. It’s a lot more complicated, once I started researching it, then people realize. It’s different than just simply stress. You had your daughter on, the other Dr. Morgan, and she framed stress really well, because it is something that we can use as a tool and have something that energizes us, but we also don’t want to have our foot to the gas pedal at 100 miles per hour, for year, after year, after year. For those of us that are working in fields with an urgency, like helping human trafficking victims, we’re not really good at turning it off when we go home. We don’t do this nine to five job where we stop thinking about the people we see that we’re trying to help as soon as we go home, on our vacations we’re completely relaxed, we’re very bad at helping ourselves. We’re good at helping others and not very good at helping ourselves. Burnout really can be addressed if you understand where all these sources of stress are coming from, and figuring out ways that you can take a break, or give yourself a little more kindness, give yourself that chance to recharge, that we don’t when we’re gas pedal to the floor, changing the world, doing everything for everyone.

Sandra Morgan 6:01
I call this episode The Cost of Burnout. For me, after our first conversation, I started looking through your website, you’ve got recharged.how, and of course, your alexiskennedy.com. I began to really look at the cost of burnout from a personal perspective, but then from a network perspective. I have friends and listeners in 148 countries, we need every one of you to keep doing what you’re doing, recruit your replacement so you can hand things off at the right time. The cost of burnout is we drop the baton. We aren’t there for that child in the courtroom, or in the brothel on a side road. So your ‘why’ for making this transition, can you give us a little of an understanding of how, number one: this addresses burnout for you, personally, and how you envision this for the rest of us?

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 7:19
The interesting thing about the compassion fatigue research, it actually came out of the world of nursing where a lot of ER nurses were saying, “You know what, when I’m at work, I’m amazing. I give it all,” and by the time they get home, they flop on the couch and they don’t move for another 48 hours until it’s time to go back for the next shift. They said, “I like being good at my job, but I don’t want to leave 100% of everything at work,” and in contrast, the doctors they were working with work really similarly, at 100 miles per hour. They didn’t want to take those breaks and build that self care, and it was considered weak or too woowoo. What will happen with them is they’ll go 100 miles per hour for their career, and then when they finally do retire, a week into their retirement, they drop dead of a heart attack. So we can burn the candle at both ends, but there’s a cost to it. If we want to stay in a difficult job like human trafficking, advocacy, or any kind of research, we have to slow down and build in self care, and build in times to recharge. Because the people who go and say, I actually had students make me a t-shirt at one point that said, ‘I’ll sleep when I’m dead.’ It was kind of cute. but actually now in retrospect it was a big, red flag.

Sandra Morgan 8:32
I always say, “I’m going to sleep on the plane. Don’t worry, I’ll sleep on the plane.”

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 8:37
I realized, I want to retire. I mean, I want to have a period of my life where I can work at a less furious pace, even though the social issues continue, and the stuff that needs to be solved is still there. But not everybody even makes it to retirement. A lot of people if they are giving 100% at work, and all of a sudden something else happens, a home crisis, a sick parent, a sick child, they’ve got no reserve left to handle that. If they’re trying to handle the stuff outside of work, and one of the best ways to recharge is social connection and friendship, a lot of our jobs are very socially isolating. I know that if I go to a dinner party and people ask what I do, and I talk about human trafficking, I instantly get that glazed look where they’re like, “Oh no, please don’t talk to me.” We don’t have that social recharge, that people don’t necessarily want to talk about what we’re doing at work. That means that we’re putting everything into work, and if you don’t have outlets and don’t have brakes, when you do collapse which you will if you’re going 100 miles per hour without that balance, you can take down not just you, but the people around you, and the entire program. And that’s a problem because there’s such an urgency to help the victims, the clients, the people that we’re advocating for, it’s almost ike we don’t want to feel sorry for ourselves or give ourselves any sympathy, because what they’re going through is so much worse. But it’s not a competition of victimization. The reality is, even if you come from a completely idyllic background, and have an amazing friend group and have amazing homelife, the stories we’re hearing start to weigh down on us, and that that weight is going to take stress on our body, on our nervous system, on our digestive system, all of these things are interconnected. When the body starts to break down, then we don’t have as much empathy, it affects the way we thinkm it’s all interconnected. In medicine, we tend to look at just the body in isolation, but it’s holistic. When your body breaks down, it’s often the warning sign that you’ve got too much emotions that you haven’t been able to process. Often it’s when we stopped sleeping, we realize, “Wait, maybe it’s not just about my bed, maybe it’s about all the stories I’m trying to process while I’m sleeping.” So we have to take the physical warning signs as an indicator that maybe we need to look at, holistically, our whole life, balance, stress, and what other things that we’re trying to juggle.

Sandra Morgan 11:16
For people like me, because I’m going to just own this, this is my private, pre-therapy, education appointment with you. For people like me, I need more than feelings and ‘how are you on a scale of one to 10?’ I can’t measure that, really. I need more physical, tangible signs. If I track my sleep, that could be an indicator, what other kinds of physical health risks can I look for?

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 11:54
Changes in appetite or the way you digest things, if you’ve always got an upset stomach. Most of our stress hormones are actually made in the digestive system. That’s one of the things, I’ll see my students during exam period, those that have irritable bowel syndrome, when the stress goes up, their ability to eat goes down. We don’t think about digestion but how regular are you, how’s your system running? That’s a really important one. We carry a lot of stress, we hold stress in different parts of our body. If you wake up with a neck that won’t turn all the way around, or you’ve got this pain in your hip, that’s often a sign that you’re not stretching, that you’re holding a lot of things in your body, so those aches and pains are a warning sign as well. I actually got called out by my dentist, and he said, “Are you really stressed?,” and I’m like, “I teach stress medicine.” He’s like, “Well, you’re clenching your teeth at night to the point that they’re starting to crack.” It was interesting because I didn’t notice it. I knew that my jaw was stiff, I guess sometimes waking up, I can’t control what I’m thinking about when I sleep. A lot of trauma victims have that as well, where they have teeth problems because they’re just clenching or grinding their teeth at night. So, trying to get everybody educated. If you go on vacation and you’re the person that on the first day of vacation, you get sick and you’re sick for the rest of vacation, that means that you’re not in balance during the rest of the time, and we want our vacations to be fun, not sitting in bed trying to get over the latest cold. Stress depresses our immune system, so if you catch a cold that’s going around, that’s another indicator that you might be out of balance and pushing too hard.

Sandra Morgan 13:39
You mentioned listening to the stories. How does vicarious trauma show up in this situation?

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 13:48
It actually can be the equivalent to primary trauma. It can manifest in terms of PTSD. A lot of people who’ve been in this field end up developing PTSD from not just the stories that we hear, but our bodies mirror the emotion. When you’re sitting across from the victim who’s talking about a life or death situation, our body picks up on that, and it turns up our fight or flight system because our brain has the amazing ability to make these stories real. We see someone reliving when they were in danger, life or death, and our body’s alarm systems rev up, going, “Oh, danger!” Even though we may be sitting in an office and we’re just hearing a story, that constant turning on of your fight or flight system is something that ends up burning us out a little bit. But with the PTSD, even if it’s not PTSD, a lot of times when we hear a really upsetting story, also in the moment we’re calming the person down or trying to reflect to them that they’re safe now, we’re presenting positive outcome future, that’s what we’re trying to help them get to, when we go home, have those quiet moments, that’s when it goes through. I would notice I’d be at my kid’s soccer game and instead of watching him, all of a sudden my brain went back to the story I heard and my body, all of a sudden, gets into this busy mode of, “What can I offer?,” and, “Did I do enough?,” and, “What are their resources?” So, just recognizing that that gas pedal gets constantly pushed when we least expect it. Where it’s most obvious is in sleep, when you’re sleeping restlessly, or you’re dreaming. Sleep is so important, it’s the single most important medicine that we have but of course, because nobody can patent it, there’s not a lot of conversation around it. What happens when we sleep is just incredible. Not only do our bodies flush, our muscles reset, our digestive system resets, our whole brains flush because we have to get rid of the neurotransmitters that are lingering around that we didn’t use. If you’re not getting a good sleep, and not getting the different sleep cycles, you’re not processing the stuff you saw during the day, because at night is when we sort the stories. It’s when we come up with our creativity, where we make connections we might not have otherwise done, it really is the most important part of our day in a lot of ways. But if you are overworked, overwhelmed, not finding a way to decompress from the stories that you’re hearing, that lack of sleep is going to make you eventually unhealthy physically, but it also depletes your ability to do your job the next day. We’re not as sharp and we don’t sleep, we’re not as good at handling emotions, we’re not as good at hearing difficult stories. So it’s not selfish to prioritize sleep, it’s actually the best tool you can use and engage to be able to be the best version of yourself at work.

Do you teach us how to sleep?

Actually, it’s kind of amazing, we all have the answers. The best thing I love about teaching about stress management is it’s all common sense, I don’t have to convince people. The research is now showing us that we really need a routine. If we go to bed one night at nine and the next night at midnight, we’re messing up our circadian rhythm, we’re fighting our basic biological instincts. We also mess up our bedtime routine because in the old days, the light would go down, your candle would get dim, you’d blow it out, your body would know it’s time to sleep. When we’re in bed at midnight, scrolling through our Instagram to look at some funny dog or cat videos to try and decompress, that blue light from that phone is is going straight into your eyeballs, straight into your brain saying, “it’s still light out, don’t go to sleep.” So the things that we do before bed that we think are calming us down, are actually sending all these contrary messages to our brain. The latest research shows that even if you can only get six hours of sleep a night, you want to go to bed and do the same six hours every night. Because if you’re on the weekend saying, “Well, I’m gonna go to bed at 5pm and just get a 12 hour night’s sleep,” that’s not going to work because you’re fighting the way that our body is set up to respond to light and rhythms and basic systems.

Sandra Morgan 18:10
Are there any guidelines for this routine that include what I eat? Some people medicate, they take things like melatonin, magnesium, all of those. Should I be paying attention to those ads that pop up when I’m scrolling on Instagram to calm down?

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 18:31
Well, North Americans are very addicted to having a quick pill to fix things, but the research shows that it’s more holistic than that. Going to sleep at a regular time, turning off the electronics and the blue light and maybe listening to an audible book as you’re trying to fall asleep, or putting a red light in your bedside table and reading a paper book, those are all things that will…

Sandra Morgan 18:58
A paper book?

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 19:00
They exist still.

Sandra Morgan 19:01
Oh, wow. Okay, go ahead.

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 19:03
Something without blue light so that we are sending that message to our brain, through our body, that the sun is setting and it’s time for us to calm down, then our body produces melatonin. Melatonin is a thing that gets everything ready to say, “Okay, it’s time to sleep.” Melatonin gets us to sleep, it doesn’t really keep us asleep. A lot of that can be done through our own strategies. Making sure your room is really dark when you sleep, that’s something some people are always sensitive about and have to have blackout curtains. But there is a real truth to the fact that your body, even through the skin, will absorb light and take in that information and say, “Oh, actually, it must be daytime so we should get up.” If you ever go to a hotel and it’s an unusual alarm clock, and you open your eyes in the middle of the night and think, ‘Oh my gosh, that’s like the power of the sun it seems so bright,” we do sleep better in dark environments. We also need cooler environments. 65 to 68 degrees is the right temperature to sleep, because one of the systems our body goes through is that when our temperature drops at the end of the day, that’s what signals the melatonin and the rest of things to start sleep. So people that are trying to sleep in too hot of a room, that’s sort of difficult. Even if you go to sleep under the sheets, you’ll notice you wake up with your arms out and your feet out, that’s because your body needs to have a certain temperature to stay asleep. Changing your temperature is another one that’s really powerful.

Sandra Morgan 20:30
So it’s not selfish of me to say no because I need to go to bed?

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 20:37
Correct. It’s your best practice to be the most efficient person you are the next day. People want you to be good at your job, they want you to not be cranky, and impatient, and just really emotionally depleted, and sleep is the thing that allows us to reset. I’s the first thing we give up but it’s actually the most important thing.

Sandra Morgan 21:01
I’m going to definitely think of you as I develop better routines for regulating sleep, because I think you’re absolutely right. I’m looking at some more questions that I have here, we may have to have you come back, but you are coming for Ensure Justice in March. I want to talk about screening tools, especially in areas where we’re talking about peer support and suicide prevention. We talked a little bit about people in high risk professions, in law enforcement, in military, can you tell us about how those kinds of tools might help us?

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 21:49
Often we don’t see our red flags, but our co-workers will see the red flags on a minimal level. We have those colleagues who we know are hangry that when they’re hungry, you don’t want to talk to them, so sometimes you’ll bring them a muffin before you have to ask them something difficult. We don’t always notice when we’re really out of balance and really toppling over, whereas our colleagues will. That’s particularly true for when people are at very low points and feeling suicidal. We have this myth that talking about suicide will cause it, but all of the research is showing it’s the exact opposite, that we need to be open about the fact that people who are going through depression, anxiety, difficult emotions, suicidal thoughts are kind of normal. What we want to do is figure out who are the people who have moved beyond suicidal thoughts to actual suicidal plans? And by asking them and doing a warm handoff and saying, “You know what you seem like you’re really struggling right now. Let me walk you over to our counselor, let me call the suicide hotline, pass me your phone and we’ll do this together.” People are afraid to talk about suicide because they think, “Well I can’t diagnose it, I can’t fix it.” We don’t need to do that, we just need to notice it, identify it, and then give a handoff so that we can take people to the resources that they need. It’s difficult to do when you see someone in crisis, we’re afraid to doing the wrong thing, but doing nothing is going to be the wrong thing. So one of the tools that’s being promoted throughout the United States is the Columbia Lighthouse Protocol, and it’s a peer to peer screening tool that gives people a simple six questions about suicide ideation and whether or not people are making plans. If it’s yes to any of those questions, to then help them get in contact with the the suicide hotline or a resource that you have at work. We know that because of stress and trauma, the rates of suicide have been very high in the military. The groups that have implemented this tool have seen a reduction in their suicide. When I do it with firehouses and working with them, they’ll often say, “Well, I don’t need it personally but I know some colleagues who need it.” They also say, “I wish you would train my wives, or my partners and spouses, because they’re the ones that know when I’m really struggling.” So it’s something that the more widespread we get, the better equipped we’ll be to have those hard conversations.

Sandra Morgan 24:22
Wow, okay. One of the things in our first conversation that shocked me, was our conversation about meditation and yoga. Because wellness practices are commonly recommended for stress relief, but this idea that this can be unsafe, I need you to unpack that for me.

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 24:49
It’s interesting because we think that meditation is a complete, blank mind and that that’s what we’re trying to get to. Meditation is more about being present and noticing what’s going on. And for a lot of the victims that I’ve worked with, meditation is not safe. When they sit still and let their brain run wild, they go back to revisiting the things that they’ve tucked away, the traumatic life or death situations. So just sitting in silence can actually be very triggering, and can be very traumatizing. There are groups like the Trauma Recovery Yoga Group that was started in Las Vegas, where what they do is they worked with the, again the VA hospital and traumatized people there, and if you do a guided meditation where you’re being talked to the entire time and asking you to turn your mind to your feet, now think of your ankles, or going through specific positive meditations, that is safe, but just putting on a bit of music and asking people to sit still can actually be incredibly triggering. It’s true of a lot of treatment modalities, like even if you’re in a yoga class, it’s not always safe to touch people in a yoga class. If you’ve got someone who’s got a history of sexual victimization, and the instructor goes over and grabs them by the hips to readjust them, that can be incredibly triggering and traumatizing. It’s understanding how trauma affects the nervous system, and how we have to provide that extra guidance and support, is going to be the healing modality, but you can’t just tell someone to go on YouTube and watch any old video or any old meditation, you may be setting them up for a really rocky ride and a really difficult experience.

Sandra Morgan 26:36
So can I find more on your recharged.how website?

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 26:41
Yes. I’m constantly putting out little videos when people sign up, I do newsletters, and I do free training webinars. I have one that I love doing, which is ‘Why You Should Go On Vacation.” In North America, we’re terrible about taking our vacation time. It feels like the world is still burning, wherever we’re leaving, how can I possibly take a break from that? But it’s critically important to take that break or you won’t be able to go back to your job. There’s only so many years you can burn the candle at both ends.

Sandra Morgan 27:13
As I look at the things on the website, and I consider the risk of not prioritizing this self care, this health agenda, it can take down an entire agency, there is a cost to burnout. It’s not something glorified, you’re a hero because you never take a day off. What would you say to someone who is having a hard time taking that time?

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 27:13
It’s really a question of, gosh that’s a tough one. Well, I guess the simplest way to put it is if you want to continue to help people and take care of other people, you have to take care of yourself. There are no prizes for sleeping very little and being a martyr, that’s not going to make you an efficient worker, it’s not going to make you a patient advocate, it’s not going to make you a good colleague, it’s not going to make you a nice person to live with. Look at all of those relationships and say, “How can I be the best version of myself?” Self care isn’t selfish, it’s actually critical. But self care has been couched with this idea that it’s just pedicures and kale salads, some people will say, it’s much more complicated. It’s the idea that we are athletes, we’re in this marathon of helping people. Athletes, they prioritize sleep, they know that when they eat better, they’re going to feel better the next day, they know that if they push too hard, they’re going to get injured the next day> We have to think about how do we keep our bodies and minds in peak performance? And that is by taking care of ourselves so that we can get up and run that marathon the next day.

Sandra Morgan 29:06
Alexis, you are just amazing, and you already gave us decades of amazing research for the people we want to serve. But you said to me in our last conversation, I feel called to teach the things I need to learn. What do you want people to do? What are the action steps they can take now to get the kind of training to make the changes that you’re recommending?

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 29:40
I think they have to realize that you’re part of the solution, and if you want to celebrate that and pat yourself on the back and say, “Look at me, I’m making a huge difference in people’s lives,” you also have to pay attention to yourself and that means taking care of yourself. It’s hard because when we do a hard day’s work, have really hard situations, you’re tired on the way home, you don’t want to stop and make a salad, you’d rather get fast food at the drive through. The reality is, it’s a gift to yourself every time you eat healthy, sleep well, drink enough water. We have to reframe it. It’s not “I have to go on a diet, I have to stop doing this, I don’t want to be bad.” We really have to reframe it into the positive that “I want to keep doing this important work so I need to fuel myself in the best possible way.” And that also includes surrounding yourself in your off time with the right people. Often as helpers, and I see this with all the first responders and therapists that I work with, we have a really high tolerance for crazy. We are often the person that’s friends with someone that nobody else wants to be friends with. If your phone rings, and you see it’s that person who’s gonna talk for an hour and not ask you a question, and your stomach drops and you think, “Ugh, I have to take this,” don’t take it. No. Choose to be with people who energize you and make you feel really good, and you don’t have to fix everyone, you don’t have to be everyone’s solution.

Speaker 1 29:40
Oh my goodness, Alexis, I’m going to listen to this podcast over and over again, it’s like you give me permission. I think that’s a gift, I think that’s a gift. We will have you back on, we’ll do some deep dives in some of these practices. I do want to keep sending people to your website. Tell us again, the website.

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 31:14
It is www.recharge.how.

Sandra Morgan 31:23
I love that the ending is ‘how’ because that’s what usually we need to know. We need to know how to do something. As we are closing here, I just want to take this opportunity, Alexis, to thank you for your decades of service and how you have turned your own journey into teaching things the rest of us really need help with as well. As a psychology researcher, I want to be one of your test subjects for helpers in this work, so thank you so much for being with us today.

Dr. Alexis Kennedy 32:25
Thank you so much for letting me share this information I’m really passionate about.

Sandra Morgan 32:29
And I’m looking forward to having you with me here at Ensure Justice, March 6th and 7th, 2025. Now’s the time to put this on your calendar. We’re inviting you also, if you have never been on the endinghumantrafficking.org website, go on over, find the resources, links in the show notes to things Alexis and I have talked about, the anti human trafficking certificate, all kinds of resources. If you’ve never become a subscriber, just click that. You won’t get a bunch of email but you will get show notes every two weeks when there’s a new conversation. We’ll be back in two weeks.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Rachel Thomas as the two discuss the importance of role models and mentors for vulnerable youth.

Rachel ThomasRachel Thomas is a survivor, advocate, and educator. She is serving her second term on the White House Advisory Council, co-founded Sowers Education Group, and speaks all over the country. Rachel Thomas will be the Amplify 2024 Keynote speaker to support the work of the Global Center. She has previously been a guest on the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast on episode #196: Ending The Game and episode #272: The Cool Aunt Series.

Key Points* Role models and mentors have a significant impact on youth, particularly black youth and those in the foster care system. They are crucial in providing guidance, stability, and positive examples that many youth may lack. * Many youth look up to hip hop artists who may embody success and empowerment in ways that resonate with them, although there are potential pitfalls of hyper-sexualization and dysfunctional themes in the genre. * When it comes to mentoring youth, challenges may arise surrounding the idolized figures in hop hop culture, however, it is important to have conversations around these influences without dismissing the artists or their influences. * As a mentor, it is important to build rapport, understand the youth’s perspectives, and gradually introduce alternative ways of thinking and aspirations. * It is important that adults get involved in mentoring programs, such as through organizations like Big Brother Big Sister, or creating internships for youth within local communities. One committed mentor can make a significant difference in a young person’s life.

Resources* #196: Ending the Game * #272: The Cool Aunt * Sower’s Education Group * Coaching for Leaders

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:14
You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode #324: Role Models and Mentors, with Rachel Thomas. Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I’m so happy to welcome back our good friend, Rachel Thomas.

Rachel Thomas 0:58
Hi Dr. Morgan, thank you so much for having me back. This is an honor and a pleasure, always.

Sandra Morgan 1:03
I just love having conversations with you, Rachel, I learn so much. You’re an amazing survivor, advocate, and educator. You’re serving your second term on the White House Advisory Council, you co-founded Sowers Education Group, you speak all over the country, and in fact, I’m really excited that you’re going to be our Amplify 2024 Keynote, to support the work of the Global Center. We’re really excited. You’ve been a frequent flyer on the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. I’d like to recommend that people go back and listen to episode #196: Ending The Game, probably one of the best discussions on psychological coercion, and your episode #272 with The Cool Aunt Series. I’m happy to have you back, Rachel.

Rachel Thomas 2:08
Thank you, honored to be back, and glad that you’re still doing this important podcast. This is such a great resource and service to the community.

Sandra Morgan 2:17
I just love it. I got an invitation in the mail yesterday, an email, to go on a talk show in Dublin, Ireland.

Rachel Thomas 2:27
Wow.

Sandra Morgan 2:29
I just love how international our community is, and people care. Hopefully because of that, other people will get a chance to listen to our conversation today. We’re going to talk about the theme of Models, Role Models and Mentors for Black Youth. When I think about role models, when I was a young person, I wanted to be like my teacher, I wanted to be a professor. One of the people I wanted to be like, I had eye problems from the time I was very small I started wearing glasses, they looked like little baby lenses, so my optometrist, I was like, I want to grow up and be an optometrist. What were some of your role models?

Rachel Thomas 3:19
Oh, good question. My role models, I did have several teachers that I adored. My parents really were some of my main role models. I have family members, I’m from a family of entrepreneurs, so older cousins. I had some career role models, basically teachers, I’ve always wanted to be a teacher. Then some some other types of role models for how to walk, how to dress, how to carry myself, how to show up in a room, and that was a lot from my mom and aunts, and family members.

Sandra Morgan 3:23
I think today’s youth have a lot of different kinds of role models, especially in that social space about how to dress and all of that. And from you, I’ve been learning that the role models in our hip hop culture, in rap culture, are really pretty different. So can you talk to us about some of the impact of role models on black youth?

Rachel Thomas 4:32
Sure. This is something I’ve always been aware of having taught high school, but now that my organization has a contract to work with foster youth directly, we’re two years in and we just got renewed for another two years so that’s a blessing.

Sandra Morgan 4:49
Yay!

Rachel Thomas 4:50
Yeah. We are tasked with reaching 50,000 California foster youth with the message of Human Trafficking Prevention, but we also are afforded the great, honestly it’s an honor and a privilege, to do mentorship. It’s not like a one time, teach them something and go, we are able to have ongoing relationships with these youth. I am intimately aware of a good handful of our foster youth and who really they are looking up to, who they are patterning their lifestyle and their goals after, and when it comes to our black youth. And I know this conversation is about black youth because I’m black and we do work with a lot of black youth, but really, hip hop is the most pervasive teenage youth genre, so it definitely goes beyond just black youth. It’s really all youth, different socioeconomic status, different regions, that’s just the number one genre of music that you’d like. I think when we’re talking about with black youth, it’s even more impactful, especially with our foster youth, because they may not have other role models that are playing a leading role. It’s it’s the hip hop artists, it’s the rap artists, it’s the ones who have millions of followers and millions of dollars and fans, and all of the accolades and things that they would love to have. That’s who’s really leading them.

Sandra Morgan 6:32
You gave me a homework assignment before this episode, and I have a list of just female rappers, not even the whole. I went and looked at this, and it gave me a little more context for when I’m talking to students, when I’m talking to young people in some of our drop in centers that are more vulnerable and may have already been trafficked. They dress like what they see. What ways do these artists who are very successful, they are entrepreneurs, inspire or influence what our youth want to be, their aspirations?

Rachel Thomas 7:24
Sex. It’s all about hypersexuality, it’s all about using what you got to get what you want. It’s all about “I’m prettier than the next one,” “My body is nicer than yours,” “My body feels better in bed than yours,” and I’m saying it all very nicely.

Sandra Morgan 7:45
You’re translating for my audience and me.

Rachel Thomas 7:47
Right.

Sandra Morgan 7:48
Thank you.

Rachel Thomas 7:50
It’s all hypersexuality and the sense of, definitely competition and sexual prowess, and also, it’s just glorifying dysfunction on many levels, from dysfunctional interpersonal relationships. There’s a huge push on being the “baddest bitch” is a big term. In some ways it can be spun as empowerment, there’s a strength to it, there is some power in it, but it also verges on just glorifying not having friendships, and being able to be self sufficient, and not needing anyone. All of it is like if you have one traumatized youth, and they went down the path of what we would not want someone to do after they’ve been traumatized. If they didn’t go to therapy, and didn’t have healing, and didn’t have any resources, this is the music that they would create. They’ve taken being sexually abused and instead of looking at it as a trauma, they’ve looked at it as, “I’ve been put in this category, and I’ve learned the skills, and I’m going to be the best at it. Instead of it being done to me for free, now I’m going to make money out of it and be proud of it.” That’s one example, and for the most part, I think they really are rapping and talking about their actual held beliefs, but I think others, it’s because they’re in such that climate, and such sales that they’re not even like that in real life, but in order to be popular, that’s the lane for black female artists. You have to play that game and you have to lead with sexuality and just attitude.

Sandra Morgan 9:51
Wow. That kind of brings us back to the Ending the Game content that you’ve been so instrumental in. I think as I’ve watched how you have impacted the lives of young people, survivors from our program, not limited just to black youth and minor victims of trafficking, but adults as well, I’ve seen you use your real life, you’ve got grit. You can say the words that are really challenging for me to say, and I’m in shock, I don’t even know how to have a conversation, which I don’t need to because we’ve got you, and you have that conversation. How do you engage a young person who is modeling their life after these hip hop figures, and begin to impact them to make different choices?

Rachel Thomas 11:03
My approach, and mind you, I’m someone who, in my teen years, that was the music I liked also. In retrospect, I think that was a vulnerability into trafficking for me, that it desensitized pimping and actually glorified pimping. I didn’t look at it as a destructive, dangerous reality, it looked more like something cool that the women signed up for and the men were smooth. My approach is never to trash talk to artists that they like, because they’re people too. I think first is to just have a casual, curious conversation about why they like these artists. Sometimes it’s the beat, sometimes it’s the lyrics, the sound. They have that grit and empowerment to them, and if they feel powerless in certain areas, then they want to hear from someone who is just uber powerful, even if it’s talking about how sexual they are, or whatever. It starts with a curious, non- judgmental conversation, and then after some rapport is there, or when it’s not going to feel like an attack, then just talking about having more of a critical lens on some of the lyrics, some of the lifestyle. If it’s what they relate to, and it’s what makes sense to them, then accepting that and also just introducing other ways of thinking, introducing other alternatives for how to have success and respect, and feel powerful in life. I think so much of it is about walking the journey and it’s not just telling people that the path they’re on is wrong, that’s not helpful at all, you have to help them walk it, you have to help them actually see and believe that there’s a different alternative for their life. A lot of times for black youth, they have to see something else. Dr. Morgan, so you had mentioned your optometrist, and your teachers, people around you who have poured into your life that became your role models. A lot of our black foster youth they want to be social workers, they want to be foster parents, they want to be teachers, they want to be coaches, and that’s beautiful. It’s the exact same thought behind it, that some of them want to be the positive people that have poured into their life. But for those who don’t have that, or maybe they just have their eyes in a different direction, then they want to be the nearest rapper or rap artist, female, sometimes athletes. That’s their version of dreaming beyond a regular nine to five, if they want stardom, if they want something more than being a teacher or a social worker, then it’s “I’m going to be a rapper.”

Sandra Morgan 14:04
I’m listening to you and I don’t think I ever saw you, because I’ve known you as an advocate, you’d already finished your masters when we first met. I knew your story, but this idea that this genre of music was part of what made you a little more receptive to people reaching out to you and offering you opportunities that looked really amazing to a young college student, that part of your story helps me see where we might be able to be more intentional about mentoring. I’m curious how you have moved your advocacy into more mentoring. I know so many of the young people that you are mentoring, and I don’t know how you do it, because there are so many lives that you’re speaking into. Maybe tell me what it means to you to be a mentor for someone?

Rachel Thomas 15:20
I definitely have to give a shout out to the Cool Aunt Team, we have Teyanna. We have a team of Survivor Leaders who are also available for mentorship, and our lead youth mentor is Teyanna, and she is absolutely amazing. She’s now a wife and a mother, and an equestrian and just slaying all of her goals. But she was trafficked from the ages of 11 to 22. She went to prison for her trafficker for a while and has really just had a hard road, and has earned every bit of the wisdom and joy and resilience that she exudes. It’s not just me, we do have a team of seven mentors, actually. I think what that looks like is just being available. Some days we’re talking about their upcoming history test, some days we’re talking with them, crying about why their mother doesn’t want them or love them, or why they choose drugs over them. Letting the youth lead the conversation, and you know, having lessons prepared, so if they just show up and they don’t have anything to say, then we have plenty to talk about. But really, it’s being available. I think since I am blessed to have healthy, loving, involved parents, I just go off of that. If I fill in as a parent role for this kid, for this time that we have together, that’s all I’m doing. I’m listening, I’m being helpful, I’m providing resources, I am being empathetic, I’m giving advice when warranted, and when not, I’m doing it in a way that is palatable and not too judgmental. That’s really, that’s what it is, it’s what a parent would be doing, that these kids just don’t have access to that

Sandra Morgan 17:20
I’ve followed some of our foster youth and many times I get to kind of feel like I’m part of an extended family. One time, I started asking questions like, how do you define family? Because I began to see that they had skills for creating a community around them that was supportive, that resembles what you’re talking about with growing up with so much family support, like I had. I’m curious how you’ve experienced this informal family model?

Rachel Thomas 18:10
That was a lot of our reason for naming this work that we’re doing with youth, The Cool Aunt. That goes in line with the feeling of family, and I think for youth, especially our foster youth, they are starving for that. They want someone who sees them, who cares, and it’s really just been an honor and a blessing. They’ll say things like, “Wow, nobody’s just like sat with me before, and listened.” So many people in their lives are work and goal oriented, it’s, “I have to find your next placement, and get you enrolled in this, and do the tasks,” that sometimes they don’t have someone to just sit and talk about whatever they want to talk about. It’s not rocket science, it’s not something that is super strenuous for the mentor or for the adult, it’s really just availability and showing up. I tell everyone to become a mentor, there’s Big Brother, Big Sister, there’s so many different avenues to get involved. Creating an internship at your place of work and opening it up for foster youth to come shadow for maybe a day or something. It’s not hard work, but it’s life changing, important work. I just find that it’s something that youth are receptive to, and you don’t have to solve their problems, you don’t have to be a therapist, you don’t have to be someone that’s going to take them out of the system and save them at all, it’s really just showing up. You can’t be what you can’t see. If they don’t know of any kind, healed adults, then it’s not a great possibility that they’re going to turn into that. If they’ve never met an attorney, if they’ve never met a chef, if they’ve never met all of these other careers that they have not had interaction with at that point, then that’s not even something they know that is a possibility that they can aspire to be. Whether it’s different career choices, or characteristics, or any part of the identity that makes up a person, they have to be exposed to it in some intimate way for them to even put that in their realm of possibilities.

Sandra Morgan 20:35
Mentors help with creating dreams.

Rachel Thomas 20:37
Mm hmm.

Sandra Morgan 20:39
I think I’ve been listening to a podcast this week. Every time I get in my car, I turn on somebody’s podcast, and I was listening to a podcast about mentoring this week. I think I’ll put the link, it’s from Coaching for Leaders. One of the most important aspects that helped me was what you’ve been talking abou. It discriminated between mentoring and coaching. Coaching is telling you what to do, run to this bass, hold, watch for my signal, whatever. But mentoring doesn’t tell you what to do. It requires a lot of listening, and I think it’s hard for us to create formal mentoring paths. Being organic is part of this concept of a community that’s a family. I have people around the world who call me aunt or auntie or auntie, depends on what part of the world they’re from, and I feel that sense of family. That is this informal opportunity to mentor, but I don’t require them to fill out reports or any of that. I do think, though, that some elements of being a mentor, and I’m curious if you agree, do require availability and continuity to communication? How do you foster that with the Cool Aunt series.

Rachel Thomas 22:25
Of course, that’s ideal. Going back to that idea of a parent, that’s someone for life. We aim for weekly check ins, and the kids, they have our number, so they can text us if they need to outside of our weekly scheduled check ins. The the more time, and the more consistency you can provide, the better. But just setting those expectations in the beginning, if you’re not able to, if it’s like, “You will be on my heart, and on my mind right now, with our schedule, we may check in with you every other week or even just once a month. But if something happens, something comes up, you can text us, you can look forward to telling us about it the next time we talk.” Just setting expectations and letting them know that even when you’re not available, it’s not because you don’t care, or you’re not thinking of them, it’s, “I’m human, and I have a schedule.” We’ve gone about that in different ways and some youth, there’s seasons where they want to talk more often because they’re going through something heavy, and then it’ll be less frequent, which is a good thing too. They’re more stable at that point. It’s all just individuals, looking at each person as an individual, and just catering to what’s in front of you on that day, with that person, and what they need in a mentor.

As we look at the future of mentoring our youth and the resources with the Cool Aunt series, which I absolutely love, we have it in our child welfare program here in Orange County. How do you advise people who want to become involved to be mentors, to develop their skills? Can they go to your website? What what would be the best way for them to on ramp to become a mentor?

I love that. Well, we only hire survivor leaders as mentors and we are a tiny drop in the bucket. I would recommend getting involved with a local organization like Big Brother, Big Sister, just going through the website for your local child welfare, they are probably begging for mentors and foster youth. Find what is in your community locally, because I guarantee there are children in your community that don’t have available, healthy, loving parents, and they would love to have a mentor. Whether it’s through Boys and Girls Club, the YMCA, creating an internship, and just calling a local youth club or DCFS and saying,” Hey, we’re open to this internship opportunity…” There’s so many ways to create inroads there.

Sandra Morgan 25:26
I love how you always are so good at sharing with other organizations, not always just with one, meaning yours. Before we wind up here, though, how do people find you on the internet, and your program?

Rachel Thomas 25:46
The Cool Aunt Series is thecoolauntseries.com, and my personal website is rachelcthomas.com.

Sandra Morgan 25:58
Okay, so people can find you. And last, do you have a final thought, or message that you want people to leave with today?

Rachel Thomas 26:12
I do. I think that, to whom much is given, much is required. I believe that more adults need to be involved with, in some level, doing more for our disadvantaged youth. I had no interaction with the child welfare system, it was so far and foreign to me. I could not imagine that there are kids who are being raised by people who are on a paycheck, and they’re bounced around from home to home, and they’ve never had any adult pour into them. It was a problem I didn’t need to deal with and I would say just wasn’t part of my reality. I think if every healthy, well meaning adult would just take on one child, I think our world would change dramatically. That is the call to action, is to become a mentor. Even just mentoring one youth will make a huge difference.

Sandra Morgan 27:14
That’s my take away, just one. All right Rachel, we love you, we want to keep on having great conversations, and I’m excited that you’re coming to join us for Amplify in September.

Rachel Thomas 27:31
Thank you. Thank you, thank you, excited.

Sandra Morgan 27:35
If this is your first time to join the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, go on over to the endinghumantrafficking.org website. You’ll find more resources, you’ll find a link to the show notes for this conversation, opportunities to learn about the anti-human trafficking certificate program here at the Global Center for Women and Justice at Vanguard. If you haven’t visited the site before, it’s a great first step to become a subscriber and every two weeks, you’ll get an email with the show notes for the new episode. We’ll be back in two weeks for our next conversation.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Corinne St. Thomas Stowers as the two discuss the role that fusion centers play in protecting a community and its children from sexual exploitation and online human trafficking.

Corinne St. Thomas StowersCorinne St. Thomas Stowers is the Supervising Tactical Intelligence Analyst assigned to the Orange County Intelligence Assessment Center. She is supporting the tactical analysis unit, primarily focused on the transnational organized crime and violent crime threats. Corinne has nearly 20 years of experience in law enforcement. She began with Westminster Police Department, the Orange County District Attorney’s Office in the Human Exploitation and Trafficking Unit, and at the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, working child sexual exploitation cases as a tactical cyber analyst. Corrine currently holds a Bachelor of Arts in Criminal Justice, and a master’s in social work. She was recognized in 2022 by the National Fusion Center Association as Intelligence Analyst of the Year, as well as the Medal of Valor recipient from the Orange County Sheriff’s Department for her role in Operation Red Zone, the largest Orange County Law Enforcement proactive human trafficking operation.

Key Points* Fusion Centers were established post 9/11 and function as sharing hubs between law enforcement and public and private sector partners. The information shared aids in disrupting threats of online exploitation and human trafficking across the nation. * As parents and guardians, it is important to stay educated on the devices and applications that children are using and talk about technology every day. * The parameters and boundaries of technology use in a home may change as a child ages and their maturity levels rise, however it is important to continually set parameters and boundaries to keep our children safe online. * Parents or guardians may not learn about the dangers their child has faced online until they have already occurred. Because of this, it is necessary to be proactive and take note of changed behaviors their child is exhibiting and relay the information to law enforcement. * To access resources and support, visit NCMEC, linked below.

Resources* Orange County Intelligence Assessment Center (OCIAC) * National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC) * National Fusion Center Association (NFCA) * NCMEC Cyber Tip Line * Corinne St. Thomas Stowers Ensure Justice Plenary * Susan Kennedy Ensure Justice Plenary

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:14
Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women in Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode #323, with Corinne St. Thomas Stowers. She is currently the Supervising Tactical Intelligence Analyst assigned to the Orange County Intelligence Assessment Center. The initials for that are OCIAC, OCIAC. So when we say OCIAC in the rest of the podcast, we’re talking about Orange County Intelligence Assessment Center, and she’s supporting the tactical analysis unit, primarily focused on the transnational organized crime and violent crime threats. Corinne has nearly 20 years of experience in law enforcement. She began with Westminster Police Department, the Orange County District Attorney’s Office in the Human Exploitation and Trafficking Unit, and at the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, working child sexual exploitation cases as a tactical cyber analyst. Corrine currently holds a Bachelor of Arts in Criminal Justice, and a master’s in social work. She was recognized in 2022 by the National Fusion Center Association as Intelligence Analyst of the Year, as well as the Medal of Valor recipient from the Orange County Sheriff’s Department for her role in Operation Red Zone, the largest Orange County Law Enforcement proactive human trafficking operation. Corrine, welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast.

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 2:15
Thank you for having me. I’m so excited to be here.

Sandra Morgan 2:17
I remember the first time you came to a human trafficking class here at Vanguard to teach and guest lecture. You’re still coming, you were in Ensure Justice just a couple months ago. Although this is our first podcast together, I’m thinking we’re going to do this more than once.

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 2:37
Oh! I’m so excited to be here. I’ve always been such a huge supporter of Vanguard and the Center, and everything going on here, and it’s just great to be here today.

Sandra Morgan 2:46
Well tell me, to start with, what is a fusion center? As soon as I heard that, I thought it was a culinary art school for Asian/Mexican food chef’s.

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 3:02
Okay, yeah! I know, I think fusion centers, we do such incredible work across the nation. To give a little backstory to fusion centers, we were established post 9/11 as an information sharing conduit between local, state, and federal law enforcement, as well as the public and private sector partnerships. So it was a way for us to share information, timely, actionable, information to disrupt threats across the nation. We’re unique here in Orange County in that we have our own fusion center assigned to Orange County. We are the only fusion center in the United States that is assigned to one singular county,

Sandra Morgan 3:39
I did not know that. I keep finding great things we’re doing here in Orange County. So a fusion center then, is like a place where we can understand a broad spectrum of data?

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 3:57
It’s really kind of information that is ingested through the OCIAC from different avenues, whether it’s coming from the public or from law enforcement, and it’s analyzed, and then it’s shared with whoever may need to know that type of information. So it could be suspicious activity related to terrorism activity, it could be suspicious activity associated to drug trafficking or any other type of information that we think that there’s some partner that may need to know about that information. We review it, we analyze that information, and then share it with partners.

Sandra Morgan 4:29
In our context right now, and for when you were at Ensure Justice in March, we’re talking about how do we build a better plan for protecting our community and especially our children, from online human trafficking, sexual exploitation, the NCMEC report that just came out, speak to that?

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 4:52
Sure. The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children does a phenomenal job with reviewing information in relation to a wide variety of topics that are juvenile based, and one of them is exploitation of children with online activity associated to it, because of their exploited children’s division, the information that they have. The report and the information that comes out, really shows the egregiousness of what’s happening with online activity in our kiddos and that the numbers are scary, they’re really frightening. And I always say, take data with a grain of salt. We really look at it as what’s going on online and how do we measure that? I know in our involvement with like law enforcement and reporting, is that there’s a lot of potential criminal activity associated with online activity and our kiddos. As kids are more well versed in applications and information online, and have the accessibility to social media and different platforms, the opportunity for possible criminal activity goes up, and I think those numbers start to reflect that a bit.

Sandra Morgan 5:55
I’m not just a parent, I’m a grandparent, and I want to protect my kids. As I talk to other grandparents, and parents, this is a common concern. When I talk to them, they feel overwhelmed, and they want to understand how in the world they’re going to be able to keep their kids safe, because they learn about one app, and then three more pop up. They go listen to a speaker who has a book, and so they buy the book, but by the time they actually are reading it, they begin to understand that’s last year’s. How do I stay up to date right now?

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 6:42
I think that’s such a great question, and I definitely receive similar based questions from the public when I’m talking to parents and guardians as well. The best kind of avenue for dealing with that, because it is so multifaceted, is that if we have the ability to provide devices and kids being on these applications, then the education component for ourselves as adults is really important. So I always encourage, get comfortable with the applications, look at the applications. As an adult, download them on your device, and maybe look and go through them. How do you log in? Or maybe take a look at all their terms of service, and the policies with these applications, and what they actually say, because there’s a lot of information there. I think that’s always a great little practice, is how many of us have actually looked at some of the terms of agreement for the service of some of these applications? In terms of your question of the evolution of applications, one day this one’s really popular, the next day it’s this one, is staying involved with technology. Reading articles, going on the applications and seeing what’s popular and doing the research on this, I think is incredibly important because Facebook has been around for a really, really long time. There’s been applications that got popular that have kind of calmed down a little bit and not as popular. The consistency of applications will stay there. I think it’ll just kind of wave between favoring certain apps versus others. For example, I would argue TikTok is incredibly popular right now, as is Instagram, and Snapchat and some of these other ones. I think that will stay consistent now for a little bit, those are the primary ones, it’s finding out what our kids are using that aren’t so popular. Because kids don’t always tell guardians and parents, “Hey, I’m also on this little app,” and they go, “I don’t even know anything about that application. That’s not one that’s well known.” Going on the App Store and looking at the apps that are being downloaded, and seeing, or proactively looking at the device and clicking on each application and seeing what some of those are. I always say that our kids know so much and we’re always playing catch up with our children, with our with our juvenile and our youth. They are the generation of knowing this. I’m going to date myself a little bit, but while I was working at the Westminster Police Department, I remember speaking with gang detectives, and I’d say, “You know, there’s some criminal information on MySpace,” and Derek was my boss then.

Sandra Morgan 9:23
Oh wow, Derek Marsh, our Associate Director here at the Global Center.

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 9:27
Yes! And that was very eye opening for law enforcement to see that kind of information on an application, on a platform like MySpace. It will continue to stay, just educating ourselves, I think is the best route.

Sandra Morgan 9:40
As a parent, I’m listening and I’m thinking, “Okay, so we’re going to shut down all the apps, and that will keep my child safe.” Why am I wrong?

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 9:53
Kids will always find a way onto technology, whether it’s in the educational institutions that they attend in their academic careers, it is a part of our everyday. We’re walking around with a computer in our hand at any given point. The minute we limit the accessibility in its entirety, it can be quite difficult to really manage that because a kid’s going to get on a device. I think the conversation lends to how do we prepare our youth? Or how do we talk in communities, about safety and parameters when operating technology and devices, I think could be a more effective route, because then we’re looking at it as we’re educating, and giving the tools, and equipping them to make good decisions as much as possible. If some decisions that are made that are harmful, or damaging, how to report, who to talk to, how to share that information, instead of free range on the application and “good luck.”

Sandra Morgan 10:56
For me, I have to study this. I don’t have enough time to do all of that research. I do have to teach my kids good principles. One of the things that you talked about at Ensure Justice was a digital footprint. You actually made me stop and think, because I realized how I don’t try to protect my digital footprint, and that could actually, when I’m posting, how can that actually put my grandkids at risk?

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 11:32
I did say that. I’m glad you heard that. Digital footprint is a concept of, you know, you have this presence on the Internet. You can either have an active digital footprint, or what we would refer to as a passive digital footprint. An active would be, you have a Facebook account, you have a LinkedIn you are openly posting different activities, and maybe you have a blog or a podcast, or things like that, right? So that would be your active digital footprint. Your passive digital footprint is referred to as, what are others posting about you? What are family members sharing about you? But passive can also be you attended a church event and they took a group picture, and then they listed everybody that was at that event. Speaking at Ensure Justice, I didn’t post about myself at Ensure Justice, but maybe somebody took a photo and said, “I’m learning about child exploitation online,” and now, that would be your passive digital footprint. We always have to be cognizant of that and understand for ourselves and our children and our family members, what are our parameters? What are our left and right limits, and vocalizing that in appropriate spaces? The example I give is, I don’t post my children on social media or online, and so I ask family members, please don’t share their faces on social media. That’s something that my husband and I decided on before they were even born. People at the time thought, ‘How can you not?’ I think now the tides have turned and other people do that as well. Vocalizing those concerns or those thoughts, and standing true to that was always helpful, and it has been for us at least. We don’t know what social media is going to be like in 10, 20, 30 years.

Sandra Morgan 13:20
I think when I felt the most challenged is when you started talking about a parent or a grandparent posting ‘Happy Birthday’ greeting, “On this day, 10 years ago, John Joseph Smith was born.” It’s like, you’ve given the full name and the date of birth.

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 13:43
Yeah, and usually the area in which they were born too because sometimes that location information is easily analyzed and understood. Sometimes, and maybe with my work experience I have a different lens sometimes, but the oversharing of location information, our personal information, and our kids personal information, it may not always resonate how much we are truly actually sharing on the internet, and how far reaching that can go.

Sandra Morgan 14:12
And we’re just so trustworthy of all of our Facebook friends,-

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 14:16
I know

Sandra Morgan 14:17
-that I don’t know, really very well. I’m rethinking all of this. Where are our kids, based on thinking about their age and the social platforms? Do they move as they develop and go into adolescence and young adulthood?

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 14:40
Absolutely. I give the example of, my daughter believes that iPads only work on airplanes. My husband and I kind of give a little fib that they have to connect to airplanes to actually work, and we’re going to ride that until she finds out otherwise. But she’s seven, and that works for us right now. As she ages, that parameter gets changed and modified accordingly, and having those conversations about online activity. As a family, we decide what those parameters are and what that looks like to keep our kiddos safe online, and that can change as they age and to their maturity levels, and their ability to digest some of that. If I had it my way, they would never be on social media.

Sandra Morgan 15:27
Wow. What are some of the risks of kids being online?

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 15:34
I would say that there’s always the ability with people that may not have good intentions, or may have criminal intentions, to connect with our kids. We talk about keeping our children safe, of not walking alone on the streets or talking to strangers or approaching vehicles that we don’t know, and unfortunately, there’s individuals online attempting to contact kids to do harm to them, as simplified as I can put it. We have to be cautious of that and understand that. There’s a great video clip that I came across where this girl is in a room and her mom’s saying, “Okay, five minutes, dinnertime, come on downstairs,” and it sounds like a very normal night. All these individuals, these men, are walking into her bedroom one at a time, and they’re standing around her bed. There’s about 10 of them and she’s on her phone. It’s to give the visual representation of, we wouldn’t invite strangers into our kiddos bedrooms, the same thing goes with our online activity and our kiddos. We’re having those safety mechanisms in place to keep our kids safe.

Sandra Morgan 16:36
But kids don’t feel like they’re at risk, they have no fear, and I think that’s one of the pieces that we haven’t figured out. When I was teaching my kids to be safe in leaving the house, I taught them how to look both ways, I made them hold my hand, and they could see the car coming that would hit them if they stepped out in front of it. I think we’re trying to teach kids concern about something coming that they can’t see.

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 17:08
I definitely would agree with that. It’s really hard to conceptualize the opportunity for danger with our kids. As some of us knowmin this profession, they may not have the physical development to even understand the ramifications of their actions online. Their brains aren’t even fully developed, their emotions are not developed to that capacity and to that level. That’s why as parents, and guardians, and loved ones, being proactive and protecting them from those applications, similarly to a driver’s license. We would never allow an 11 year old to hop in the front seat of a car and say “good luck. ”

Sandra Morgan 17:49
Yes, we know we need to be concerned, but when do I as a parent, as a caregiver, as a teacher? What kind of behaviors should I be looking for so that I’m not constantly like the helicopter parent? “What are you doing right?” But what are those keys to when I need to actually step in?

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 18:12
You know, some of the research shows that you can notice maybe a change in behavior, emotional patterns, the dependency on devices depending on their age, the disassociation from previous activity that they loved and were invested in, maybe there’s something going on. Unfortunately, with certain types of criminal activity associated to online activity, you may not find out until something really bad happens, unfortunately. I’ve talked to many parents that have shared with me, “We had no clue until everything just got laid out in front of us, and that this had been going on for months,” whatever that was. You’re right, the helicopter thing, it’s not always going to work. But nobody knows your kid better than the parent or the guardian, and so those behavior changes may be helpful in indicating that something might be going on.

Sandra Morgan 18:55
We have put a lot of responsibility on the caregivers in a child’s life. What are you doing as an analyst, to keep my kids safe?

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 19:18
First of all, I say this often in law enforcement, it is an incredible privilege to get to do the work that I do. I am incredibly humbled to work in Orange County and law enforcement. We have exceptional law enforcement in Orange County, working tirelessly every day to keep our kids safe in different capacities, and the public safe. Law enforcement in Orange County is unique, we are exceptional, we’ve been referred to as the gold standard, that we are on the forefront. We are very victim centered, and not just in human trafficking, but in a lot of our types of crime, and we are up with technology. Talking to law enforcement, not only education, talking to each rather about what’s working and what’s not working, but utilizing technology to help us do our job better, is very well supported. I think that’s been tremendously helpful to help investigators do their job, help analysts like myself do our job better. We have the support here in Orange County for that.

Sandra Morgan 20:19
Let’s look at some of the numbers, the things that you see that come across your screen in a day of work. Let’s look first at CSAM. What is it and how do we stop it?

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 20:36
Sure. So CSAM is Child Sexual Abuse Material. As we know, as I know very well, with human trafficking, language matters and choice language is very important when we are referring to different types of elements when it relates to crimes against children. CSAM is a term that can be associated to child pornography, and I would say it’s a very good indicator of what it is, it’s the child sexual abuse production of material, and it’s shared. It can be in video form, image form, livestreamed, things like that. We have seen just an increase in volume of the amount of child sexual abuse material online, nationwide and across the world.

Sandra Morgan 21:18
When you say there’s an increase, instead of 100, there’s 1000?

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 21:23
I believe from my last review of the information, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children said they reviewed about 25 million images per year of possible Child Sexual Abuse imagery.

Sandra Morgan 21:38
Here in Orange County, you have technology, and when you are trying to protect kids here, do you connect with NCMEC? How do you do that?

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 21:52
The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children will share information with law enforcement partners, and then those law enforcement partners may reach out to us to ask for assistance when reviewing a case. It may be looking at certain information as it relates to the offender, it could be looking at information of where somebody may be located to help disrupt possible child exploitation, it may also be like a conduit of information sharing. Law enforcement may contact us and say, “Do you guys have a point of contact at this agency? We have something going on there,” and there’s no cold call. We connect to people very quickly and efficiently so that law enforcement can go out and do their job, and disrupt something that may be going on at that location.

Sandra Morgan 22:34
I love using the word disrupt, where this is better than waiting until something happens and trying to rescue/recover all of that. Disrupt. Let’s talk just briefly about the pathway from online enticement to child sexual abuse material.

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 22:58
Sure. What we’ve seen the material, through different organizations, support some of this pattern is that these individuals may go online, they find social media associated to a possible juvenile, and it may be open. Maybe the kiddo’s profile is public, or maybe it’s private, but it’ll say, “I go to the XYZ high school, I play club soccer at this location, and I’m from this location,” and the offender may then message the child victim, may send them a possible direct message and start essentially grooming them online, building a trust or rapport with the child victim at that point. That may take shorter or longer depending on the child victim, the possible child victim. Then at some point, the grooming will go into, “Hey, can you send me a picture? Can you just go and take a video?,” and we can have an eight hour conversation about the ‘why,’ an image or a video may get sent. As soon as that video or image gets sent, the offender may say, “Okay, now you’re going to pay me X amount of dollars in a gift card or transfer it to me, and if you don’t, I’m going to share this with your entire school, or I’m going to share this with your faith based groups or your community.” And oftentimes they do, they’ll forward then the images, and at that point, maybe the child victim will then let a guardian, or law enforcement, or a parent know, “Hey, this is going on.”

Sandra Morgan 24:28
We’re talking about sextortion now.

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 24:30
Yes. So it starts off as this online enticement of the kiddo turning into sextortion, at that point.

Sandra Morgan 24:37
One of the conversations I’ve been having in the law enforcement and Child Services community, is how that sextortion of kids who don’t have access to any resources has actually morphed into forced criminality.

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 24:59
That’s a great term. I know working in human trafficking, on the task force, that forced criminality can be a huge element of both labor and sex trafficking. For example, when they may not have any other option and they resort to different types of crime as a survival mechanism. In this case, I think this is just the exploitation of children, and the opportunistic moment to accept funds from them, extort them for more money. Oftentimes what we see, is that once we identify where this offender may be located, very often they’re located in other countries.

Sandra Morgan 25:38
That’s just unbelievable, to find that a perpetrator may not even be physically near, but they’re threatening physical harm. How do you discriminate between reality and virtual reality?

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 25:57
I think the trauma is still the same. I think there’s still emotional and psychological trauma that goes on when extorting a child with sexual abuse imagery in exchange for funds. There’s so much, “Is this my fault? Did I do something wrong? Maybe I had an opportunity of learning, with my parents, about what’s appropriate behavior online. Oh my gosh, look what happened now.” So talking about, this is not the kids fault, this is not their fault, and really understanding that dynamic.

Sandra Morgan 26:31
When I see a newspaper article about this, this is a teaching moment with my kids. This happened to this child, it wasn’t this child’s fault. To make sure it doesn’t happen with you, we’re going to talk about tech every day. That kind of became a hashtag at Ensure Justice: ‘Talk Tech Every Day,’ because kids need to make it a part of their normal conversation with parents, not something they’re ashamed of, and when they have questions they don’t feel comfortable going to parental figures, teachers. We have to create a normalness about that ‘Talk TechEevery Day.’ I’m really horrified because we do keep coming back to Orange County. Listeners to this podcast, this is relevant. We have listeners in 148 countries, but you brought a statistic to Ensure Justice that blew me away. It was one year of commercial sex advertisements associated to possible juveniles, right here in Orange County. I know, from working with child welfare, that we generally have 70, 80, 90 Orange County residents who have been victims of CSEC, which is horrible, but I did not know just how prolific the recruiting is.

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 28:15
Yeah, so the numbers here that you see are in relation to sexual advertisements that are all publicly available on the internet. It’s not the dark net, it’s not some secret place on the internet, it’s all publicly available. And it’s a tool to analyze the ability of what is the likelihood that this is a possible kid? Not every single one is a confirmed child or a potential child victim, but I would argue it does shine light on the issue that the problem is everywhere. We have it sitting right here in our backyard, every single day. To look at and see, I’ve had law enforcement and other professionals say that number can fluctuate. Of course it can fluctuate, but if we have one child victim-

Sandra Morgan 29:04
Exactly, I want to do something about it.

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 29:05
Right? Yeah, if we have one child victim, I would argue we have the responsibility to help in that capacity. I think that number, again, it can change, it’s an analytic review of a problem, it is not concrete, but it gives the idea that it is here, and that we have it going on.

Sandra Morgan 29:26
For me, when I look at numbers like this, I think of trends. I’m a pediatric nurse is my background. Taking a kid’s temperature, people will say, “Well that thermometer is too old school and this tech is not dependable.” But I know the kid is sick and that’s all I need to know. When I see a number, that in a year in Orange County, there’s 8,795 sex advertisements that may be connected to commercially sexually exploiting a child, I want to do something about it. I think that’s what this calls our community to do. Oh my goodness, there is so much that we can do, and one of the things that I would like you to speak to is how do parents, caregivers, teachers, get better equipped to equip children to self protect?

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 30:35
That’s such a great question, and I think it is an incredibly dynamic explanation in the sense of, similarly, the way we’d look at addressing violent crime or a human trafficking case, it’s incredibly multifaceted. There has to be a prevention measure to it. There has to be education, there has to be training, both, to the parent, guardian, loved one, of how to keep our kids safe. There’s so many incredible organizations that have a ton of resources and information. The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children has fantastic resources as well. Doing the work and learning, and showing up to events that provide some of the exposure to the information, is just incredibly helpful. Having those conversations, having the hard conversations or learning how to have the hard conversations about appropriate behavior online. How do we want to present ourselves having these conversations? You have that element. The other dynamic part of it is that if something were to happen, what information do you have to report it to law enforcement? Who do you report it to? What information would you need to obtain from the child to support law enforcement efforts? Then after the fact, what resources are out there to support somebody that may have been on that journey, or that family that has been affected by sextortion, or online enticement, or child sexual abuse material? There’s lots of organizations that the support doesn’t stop the minute you report it. That’s kind of when the support starts.

Sandra Morgan 32:04
We’re going to put a link to the cyber tip line in the show notes, because that’s a great place to start. Somebody said, “Well, why isn’t there like a hotline?” Because this is online, so you need to report it online.

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 32:18
Yeah. I would say if there’s anything going on, always report to law enforcement that information. Your law enforcement partners are there to support and ingest that information, so law enforcement is always a great place to start. The National Center, you can go on their website and report something that may be going on online, and they will then funnel it to the appropriate places as well. There’s lots of avenues to report information.

Sandra Morgan 32:45
If you’re advising a family on how to keep their kids safe, the first place they go is where?

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 32:56
NCMEC, I would say. As a former analyst there, they have incredible resources on their website, they have a whole section associated to educating elementary and middle school aged kiddos, they have resources for parents should something happen. They’re just a really great resource for anything in relation to this, but that’s not a silo. There’s, like I said, if you go online and you type in child exploitation nonprofits, there’s quite a few out there that do some incredible work in support of this, but always look into the organization and make sure.

Sandra Morgan 33:34
I know, I know. Let’s make sure that they’re doing what they say. I do love partnering with NCMEC, we had Susan Kennedy at Ensure Justice this last year, and she’s incredible. It was scary because the numbers were startling, but I think that’s where we start. We have to understand that this is not an invisible problem, there are signs and symptoms, we need to take the temperature. That is what I love about what you do Corinne, because you give us those numbers, and it is like taking a temperature, itt’s a trend. You’re not going to be able to show me 8,795 examples of CSEC, but you are showing me that there is a demand. People are advertising, there is a demand to purchase children.

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 34:32
That’s such a great point, is the demand side of this. The scary idea that there are individuals looking to follow through on this criminal activity, that are actively engaging with kiddos online where their end goal is to sexually abuse them, is quite frightening.

Sandra Morgan 34:50
We want to be prepared because when we are prepared, we don’t live in fear, but we are cautious. I think there’s a difference between living in fear as a parent, you pass that on to your kids, and being cautious, I think I’m going to start using our conversation from Ensure Justice: Talk Tech Every Day, and that means I’m going to invite you back for another podcast so we can talk tech more. One of the things I want to talk about in the future, is how do we engage middle school and high school kids in more peer to peer prevention? Every time I talk to a group of adolescents, they don’t take it and apply it to themselves. They say, “Oh, I wish you’d talk to my sister,” or “You need to talk to my cousin or my neighbor.” So let’s take advantage of this natural inclination to deflect and “It doesn’t happen to me,” which is part of teen invincibility, but they can keep each other safe, because they don’t think that their sister, their cousin, their classmate, is as safe as they are. How do we build that kind of community? Be thinking about that when you come back next time. You’re coming up on 20 years in law enforcement, and a great deal of it in this particular space, is there anything you’ve changed your mind about?

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 36:36
Changed my mind? I would say I definitely refer to this work as pulling one grain of sand out of the ocean at a time, that’s what it feels like. It can feel quite overwhelming. Even though you’re taking that one grain of sand out of the ocean at a time, that one grain of sand is somebody’s whole world, and so the work that I do is an incredible privilege. As I stated earlier, I’m absolutely honored to even impact one kiddo in my backyard.

Sandra Morgan 37:05
And one kid, like you said, is an entire life, a family, and a community. Wow, eell stated. Well, we’ve been talking about cyber exploitation with Corinne St. Thomas Stowers, we’re going to have her back. If this is your first time to listen to our podcast, go on over to endinghumantrafficking.org. On our website, you can find a link to the show notes, presentations she did at Ensure Justice, and if you haven’t visited the website before, it’s a great first step to become a subscriber so that you’ll receive an email every time a new episode drops, which is twice a month. I’ll be back in two weeks for our next conversation.

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 37:58
Thanks, Sandie.

View Details

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 2:15
Thank you for having me. I’m so excited to be here.

Sandra Morgan 2:46
Well tell me, to start with, what is a fusion center? As soon as I heard that, I thought it was a culinary art school for Asian/Mexican food chef’s.

Sandra Morgan 3:39
I did not know that. I keep finding great things we’re doing here in Orange County. So a fusion center then, is like a place where we can understand a broad spectrum of data?

Sandra Morgan 9:23
Oh wow, Derek Marsh, our Associate Director here at the Global Center.

Sandra Morgan 9:40
As a parent, I’m listening and I’m thinking, “Okay, so we’re going to shut down all the apps, and that will keep my child safe.” Why am I wrong?

Sandra Morgan 14:12
And we’re just so trustworthy of all of our Facebook friends,-

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 14:16
I know

Sandra Morgan 15:27
Wow. What are some of the risks of kids being online?

Sandra Morgan 18:55
We have put a lot of responsibility on the caregivers in a child’s life. What are you doing as an analyst, to keep my kids safe?

Sandra Morgan 20:19
Let’s look at some of the numbers, the things that you see that come across your screen in a day of work. Let’s look first at CSAM. What is it and how do we stop it?

Sandra Morgan 21:18
When you say there’s an increase, instead of 100, there’s 1000?

Sandra Morgan 21:38
Here in Orange County, you have technology, and when you are trying to protect kids here, do you connect with NCMEC? How do you do that?

Sandra Morgan 24:28
We’re talking about sextortion now.

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 24:30
Yes. So it starts off as this online enticement of the kiddo turning into sextortion, at that point.

Sandra Morgan 29:04
Exactly, I want to do something about it.

Sandra Morgan 32:45
If you’re advising a family on how to keep their kids safe, the first place they go is where?

Corinne St. Thomas Stowers 37:58
Thanks, Sandie.

View Details

Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Ioana Bauer as the two discuss the important role that cyber-security plays in preventing sexual exploitation.

Ioana BauerIoana Bauer completed her anti-human trafficking certificate through Vanguard University. She has been a leader in Romania since 2010 in eradicating human trafficking. She has helped pilot survivor engagement projects nationally, internationally through the UN, and through the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. Ioana Bauer has impacted policy and legislation, leading an initiative in Romania to remove the statute of limitations for the crime of creating online Child Sexual Abuse materials. She’s spearheaded a new award winning protection model compass geared at preventing and identifying trafficking for Ukrainian refugees. Ioana Bauer has been active in the area of protecting human rights and dignity since 2005, and, since 2010, she has dedicated her efforts to addressing human trafficking by leading and shaping prevention activities, developing materials on the issue and conducting capacity building activities. Ioana is an Ashoka Fellow, a 2020 Resilience Fellow with GITOC, and is recognized as one of the women leaders advancing the UN SDGs globally.

Key Points* The Ad Hoc Committee’s International Convention on Countering the Use of Information and Communications Technologies for Criminal Purposes has faced challenges in reaching a consensus among countries because of the tension between privacy and human rights. * It is because online and off-line identities and lives have become increasingly interconnected, that a convention like the Ad Hoc Committee’s is necessary; to look into how this interconnectedness impacts children and vulnerable groups. * Survivor voices should be heard and present in spaces like the convention, as they are directly impacted by the issues being discussed, negotiated, and decided on. * Takedown mechanisms often re-traumatize survivors, putting them through a lengthy process that does not ensure takedown.

Resources* Ad Hoc Committee to Elaborate a Comprehensive International Convention on Countering the Use of Information and Communications Technologies for Criminal Purposes * United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime * eLiberare * eLiberare Position Paper * We Protect: Global Threat Assessment 2023 * Episode 304 – European Perspectives, with Ioana Bauer * Episode 282 – Crisis Prevention of Ukraine Refugee Trafficking, with Ioana Bauer

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:14
Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode #322 with Ioana Bauer, The Intersection of Cyber Security and Sexual Exploitation. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan. This is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today, we are going to have a conversation about keeping our communities, our families, our children, safe online. Ioana, it’s great to be here, and I’ve been following your work on the Ad Hoc Committee to Elaborate a Comprehensive International Convention on Countering the Use of Information and Communications Technologies, I have to take a breath, for Criminal Purposes in hopes to reach consensus for a global framework to address cyber dependent criminality. Now this is happening in the space created by the United Nations Office for Drugs and Crime, and it’s especially significant in our spaces where we work with those who have been sexually exploited, particularly in online spaces, sextortion, pornography, all of those aspects. We talk about that right here in Orange County at Vanguard University, and we discuss the issues around sextortion. Even here, we have cases where our local youth have been exploited by traffickers on other continents, in Africa, in the Middle East, in South America, so this is a global issue. I’m really happy to welcome you to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast again, Ioana. Ioana Bauer is chairwoman of eLiberare, and last year’s 2023 Global Center for Women and Justice Amplify award winner because she takes the knowledge and insight she has and amplifies it to bring more understanding, prevention, protection, prosecution in human trafficking. Ioana is from Romania, but has a global footprint. Welcome to the show again, Ioana, let’s just dive right in. When we’re talking about this, can you tell us why a UN convention is strategic in this fight?

Ioana Bauer 3:35

First of all, thank you so much for having me again on this podcast. I think this topic is specifically important, especially now that we don’t just have a digital footprint or a digital life, and then our day to day life, it’s our life period. These two areas are so interconnected that we can’t really say, in a lot of the parts of the world, that there is one without the other, right? Our online identity and our real life identity are very much interconnected, so we need frameworks that actually look into what this means for us. Cyber crime, what are the types, how are we protected? And just like you mentioned, Dr. Morgan, somebody could be a victim in Orange County, but the trafficker, the abuser, the consumer of this criminal material, could be on a totally different continent. That is why it is important to have an international convention, because basically, states need to have a common framework under which they say, “Yes, these are the rules of engagement, and this is how we’re going to deal with XYZ crime.”

Sandra Morgan 4:49
Let’s take a step back, and can you give us a very brief overview of the process for this Ad Hoc Committee?

Ioana Bauer 5:00
Absolutely. Right now, we’re trying to have a second concluding session. You would think that this would be easy, but when you are trying to bring consensus among hundreds of countries, all of a sudden it becomes extremely complicated. Also, it would be important to mention that this is not a new process. The UN has started talking about cyber crime and the need to have common grounds, or common frameworks to address it, since 1990, so it’s about time that we end up with some sort of legislation that can apply more widely than what already exists. However, the Cyber Crime Convention, which used to be named this, before states couldn’t even agree on the name, on the definition of what cyber crime consists, hence we have that handful of a title. It started in a very divergent or a divisive way, with two countries, mainly Russia and the US, in a fight to see who gets there first, which is really funny. It’s not the first time in history when you see this, right? So, trying to figure out how to start this and the framework under which it was gonna be done, with the U S, wanting the scope that is very limited and specifically talks about certain forms of criminality, but then other states, led by Russia, wanting this convention to have the potential to be used, maybe to punish people who fo not have the same opinions as their government, or who are whistleblowers. From the beginning, the convention had a lot of tension between privacy and human rights when it comes to free speech and one’s personal opinion to disagree with the state. Then this piece on protection that is so so important. Fast forward more than than 30 years, we’re getting close to 35 years, hopefully we’ll conclude in 2024, this Ad Hoc Committee that also includes multi stakeholders. So CSOs, tech companies, are coming together trying to put forward the legal framework that would do both: protect human rights and privacy, and citizens right to disagree and hold their own opinion, as well as safeguards that have to do with the protection of children, or vulnerable groups, or individuals in general, because we’ve seen that anybody can be a victim of a cyber crime.

Sandra Morgan 7:47
It seems like, when you’re talking about these states, these countries, they’ve been working on this and been aware of this, but it got stuck. Why? Why did it get stuck?

Ioana Bauer 8:03
That’s a great question, and I think we’re still trying to answer that, even though we’re supposed to close this process. But one, the definition. What kind of crimes do we actually look at? And this is closely related to the scope of the convention. The state agreed that this should only look at cyber dependent crimes. We’re not looking at cyber enabled, we’re not looking at cyber assisted crimes, we’re just looking at cyber dependent, with two big exceptions, child sexual abuse and exploitation material, and the dissemination of intimate images, which in some states would be called sextortion or would have other such names. So these were the two exceptions that states agreed that they need to be in this convention. One, because of the frequency, where we’ve seen such a growth in these cases, in these types of crimes, and then also because of their gravity. So this was easy to include as a need, however, it was really hard, still impossible to this day, to agree how this can be done. There are states that want the broader scope, but usually these are states that would not necessarily act in good faith when it comes to the implementation of such conventions and procedures. There’s issues with international cooperation, specifically looking at extradition, for example, because this would be a topic that would have to be included in this convention. And then there’s there’s competing interests, right? If we look at public international law, a lot of times what one country would consider a moral law, another country would consider a substantive law. So we end up trying to figure out if we’re criminalizing cyber crime, or if we’re criminalizing certain behaviors that one state might consider a crime and another one not.

Sandra Morgan 10:07
When you say state, because I’m thinking of students in my classroom, everybody always loves that I bring it down to our language, and globally, we have different ways of stating things. So when you’re talking about a state, you’re not talking about California, you’re talking about a country’s government, correct?

Ioana Bauer 10:29
I am talking about a country. Thank you for pointing that out.

Sandra Morgan 10:34
Yeah, I just want to keep everybody focused on a global perspective. Okay so, is there an aspect of this that you believe is critical to address in this convention in order to overcome those competing interests? Some of the perspectives, like the example you gave about moral laws and substantive laws, and a lot of that is contextualized in culture and local laws in those countries. How do we overcome those?

Ioana Bauer 11:14
Absolutely, and this is such a difficult question, right? Because in general, international law has to respect the sovereignty of the states, and we need to figure out how we’re not infringing upon national legislation. However, I do think that there are some key aspects that we need to take into account when we discuss specifically protections, when it comes to CSAM (Child Sexual Abuse or Exploitation Material), or the dissemination of intimate images. And here, the model in which internet works is pretty much the same, right? We have the internet service providers, we have platforms, and unfortunately, a lot of times, these actors can act with a lot of impunity. We have heard a lot of times how there is no liability for third party content. Therefore, we see all these cases in which, for example, images that were created through the exploitation of others, end up on platforms but then the platform says, “Well, we didn’t know it was there,” or, “It is not our content, it is the user’s content.” Somehow, you have all these actors that are benefiting, they’re monetizing, the exploitation of children, the exploitation of different human beings in different forms, without any type of liability.

Sandra Morgan 12:37
We’re talking. Monetize is such a nice sounding word, but people are profiting from this kind of exploitation.

Ioana Bauer 12:50
Yep, and it’s not just the trafficker, right? And it’s not just those who are directly abusing, it’s also those who are facilitating, sometimes through technological means. Whether they’re getting paid for the hosting, they’re getting paid because of ads that are then being generated, or whatever form, there is some sort of profit that comes from this. And we have very clear rules when it comes to not profiting, and not monetizing, not having any financial gain when it comes to money laundering, for example, or terrorism. But somehow, legislation is lagging in a lot of countries and in a lot of states as well, when it comes to child sexual abuse material, for example. Because this crime is so international, it transcends any type of boundary, it’s important to have provision in this specific convention, but it also has to drill down to every actor that is involved. We also need to talk about the piece on takedown mechanisms. We, I believe, have both worked with survivors who have been exploited physically, but then also that exploitation may have been filmed, and then it is still being used, and it still generates profits for traffickers. Survivors have to relive their exploitation, they’re re-traumatized by this, and also, it’s an ongoing battle in which; what does justice look like when you have to relive your exploitation every time, that you need to go through a very lengthy process, that there’s no guarantee that it will end up in an actual takedown and that it will not be re-uploaded. So somehow, these are key things that we need to take into consideration, and this can be done through this multi-disciplinary approach that this Convention does involve, because of the multi stakeholders that are at the table.

Sandra Morgan 14:59
This has a lot of potential to impact survivors and change their ability to own their own presence on the web.

Ioana Bauer 15:13
It absolutely does. That’s why the the Latin saying, “Nihil de nobis, sine nobis,” “Nothing about us, without us,” should have definitely been way more central to this whole process. But unfortunately, I would say that the survivors voices was one of the most underrepresented voice all throughout the convention, and this is a huge shame. If we look at the incremental growth of child sexual abuse offenses, or material generation offenses, or anything that has to do with the creation of pornographic material, which is one of the forms of human trafficking for commercial sexual exploitation, survivors should have been there. They should have actually been heard because they’re directly impacted by this. There were some processes in which organizations such as ours for example, tried to bring the voice of the survivors at the table, but somehow, in 2024 this should already be something that institutionalized, right?

Sandra Morgan 16:20
That’s right.

Ioana Bauer 16:20
We haven’t necessarily seen that.

Sandra Morgan 16:23
The last podcast before this, we talked about having survivor informed processes that are cemented into all of your structures, as deep as HR and hiring it starts, for anybody. I think those are good principles to bring to the table. So survivors have not been really represented at the table, but you keep showing up. Even though progress is slow, why is it important to show up in person? You could just get on a zoom call, like with me.

Ioana Bauer 17:06
Absolutely. Sometimes it’s a matter of actually having the resources, but we believe in prioritizing this, at eLiberare. Also, it is my personal belief that this is a table that we need to be at. Too many times advocacy at the multilateral space ends up being reactive. Somehow we try to correct certain things that come about, meanwhile, this process of negotiation is extremely important, and we don’t wonder about that. For example, when it comes to economic diplomacy or other areas. But why shouldn’t this also be very much the practice when it comes to the the third sector diplomacy piece? CSOs coming together and really being intentional about this process. I think it’s also important, just because there’s a level of accountability that can be brought right? And this process of consultation has been so long, so somehow, we need to make sure that our voices are heard from the beginning, because otherwise it would be very easy for decision makers to say, “Well, where were you?” That’s why, when it comes to this space, it’s important to be at the table, it’s important to participate in the consultation. Submit written contributions, make sure that you’re staying up to date with what the questions are, and somehow, slowly, I believe that we can start creating the agenda for some of these meetings, and not just be passive participants or reactive activists, but very much figuring out where the agenda should go, and how do we make sure that we are prioritizing the topics of protection for victims, better policies in place, and really mainstreaming the issue of combating and preventing human trafficking.

Sandra Morgan 18:57
Do you have a sense of how many civil society organizations, CSOs, are at the table for this consultation?

Ioana Bauer 19:06
I wouldn’t be able to give you an exact number. I must say that there are more civil society organizations. There’s better representation when it comes to human rights or to the privacy piece, so that sector mobilized a bit better when it comes to this. I wish I had seen more child protection organizations and also women’s rights organizations. This is a process that really will impact these two categories to a large extent. So somehow we did not manage to to create the momentum that I wish I had seen.

Sandra Morgan 19:46
What can we do if we’re not going to go to the UN and show up at the table? How do we build momentum?

Ioana Bauer 19:55
This is a great question, and I think there’s incremental steps that we can take, right? And everybody can do something, because ultimately, we need to follow the process, and we need to make sure that this is something that’s on our radar. If this convention becomes law, this is going to have direct impact on our day to day life. So it’s important that we stay in tune and we stay informed. Also, the decision makers are members of permanent missions, which means that they represent sovereign states, countries, and these are people that we can interact with, we can write emails to, we can send position papers. We can tell them that for us, it is important that prioritization is being given to child protection, or to safeguards for everyone, against any type of commercial sexual exploitation that can happen online. We can ask for updated national legislation and safeguards as well, because this is just one step. A lot of times public international law is called soft law. Obviously it’s legally binding, but then the process is cumbersome, but if there is a precedent, that can inform our national legislation, it can inform state legislation. Now I’m talking about the older individual states that can actually adopt their own safeguards. So this is important, because in a way, whatever happens at the top will ultimately impact us at the local level, at the community level, in our day to day lives. We can also get plugged in with organizations that are working on the issue. Continue to get informed. The Ending Human Trafficking Podcast has had several episodes that deal with this specific piece. Whether it’s how do we protect ourselves, ensuring that we’re aware of the threat, ensuring that we know that this is not something that happens far away and it can impact us, but we must be aware and vigilant, not only for ourselves, but also for our neighbors, and figuring out how to do that piece as well. While not everybody might get into the UN building to host the side event, that’s also an option, we all have all these tools where we’re educating ourselves, where we’re applying that knowledge, and where we’re becoming multipliers of the information and the things that we learn in order to also help others.

Sandra Morgan 22:29
You have a lot of passion on this, and I think there are people that want to catch up to speed. In this last few minutes, can you give us some recommended resources, and I’ll put the links in the show notes. So if you’re listening to this and you want to get involved, do you want to understand? You want to know how to contact and what to say to your legislators, where do we start to catch up?

Ioana Bauer 23:06
Absolutely. There are a few resources that I think are very important. One, since we said we need to follow the process, we can add in the Ad Hoc Committee’s web page, and there we will see what happens end of July. Will we have a convention, or not? So that is one of the links that we should definitely include. The other one is a position paper that eLiberare has put together, and in which it consulted survivors, in which it consulted other organizations, academics, so on and so forth. It looks at, how do we prioritize the safeguards that are still needed? How do we light up that crosswalk. We should at least make it harder for predators to reach our children or to find new victims online, so these are some of the key aspects that we discussed in a very practical way, with reference to other international conventions, for example. Then also, one of the other resources that I think is both scary but also extremely important, is the We Protect Global Threat Assessment, this is from 2023. We Protect is a global alliance, eLiberare is one of the civil society organizations that is a part of this, and it looks at the scale and the scope of child sexual exploitation and abuse online. In order to figure out where to start and why this is important, let’s look a little bit at those statistics, because at the current rate, it takes about on average, 19 seconds for a predator to groom a child online.

Sandra Morgan 23:20
Wait, 19 seconds?

Ioana Bauer 24:54
Yep.

Sandra Morgan 24:55
Okay, got it.

Ioana Bauer 24:58
So this is why it’s important to have these conversations, and it’s important to champion these topics at every level, multilateral, international, national and community level, and even bring those types of conversations at our dinner table, if we are parents or if we are engaged with people whom we love, right?

Sandra Morgan 25:22
That’s right. Last question, Ioana for this podcast, because I’m sure you’ll come back. Have you changed your mind on anything around this issue since you’ve been part of the process?

Ioana Bauer 25:37
I think I’ve changed my mind as to things being purely black or white. There are so many dimensions to this, and unfortunately, the intersectional piece is so incredibly important here, because sometimes we create this division and this fake tension between privacy or safety, and I don’t think that that’s right. I don’t think it should be either or, and a lot of times this division is artificially fueled or created by those who don’t want to make any any type of progress. But ultimately, I think it was super inspiring to see how everybody’s passionate about human rights, and we can all agree that they need to be respected in their entirety, because otherwise they become irrelevant. If we pick or choose, if we make it this a la carte menu, rather than understanding that it’s an all inclusive, then we’re all losing,

Sandra Morgan 26:43
We’re all losing. We all need to be at the table. Ioana Bauer, it is always challenging when you’re on this podcast, because you make me do homework, you make me think through, you really are a motivator, and I’m grateful for your contribution to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. Thanks for being here today.

Ioana Bauer 27:09
Thank you so much Dr Morgan, coming from one of my mentors, that means a lot, and I’m very grateful for how you paved the way for these conversations.

Sandra Morgan 27:18
All right, so if you have never been on the endinghumantrafficking.org website, this is a good time to start, because all of the resources that Ioana mentioned, those links will be in the show notes, along with previous podcast links to Ioana and UNODC. And if you haven’t ever visited the website, you might also want to become a subscriber, and that means you’ll receive an email each time an episode drops. Please be back next episode, two weeks from now, when we’re going to be talking about, how do we keep our kids safe online? We have to do both, and the big picture umbrella for safety. We have to keep our own community safe as well. I’ll see you next time.

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Crystal Bennett returns to join Dr. Sandie Morgan for part 2 of their conversation about how the Toolkit for Building Survivor Informed Organizations integrates effective strategies and builds assessment measures.

Crystal BennettCrystal Bennett is a seasoned professional serving as the Deputy Director of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Accessibility, and Special Initiatives at the Office of Trafficking in Persons’ National Human Trafficking Training and Technical Assistance Center. With a rich background in social justice, advocacy, and community engagement, Crystal is dedicated to fostering inclusive environments and advancing initiatives that combat human trafficking.

Main Points* An organization’s job postings should be intentional, explicitly stating its commitment to SAMHSA’s 6 Guiding Principles to a Trauma-Informed Approach. * The toolkit encourages the implementation of reflective supervision practices within an organization. This means that there should be opportunity for collaboration and building relations between supervisor and supervisee. * Reflection supervision enhances collaboration and the choices that an employee has, creating trust and extending greater control for the person who is being supervised. * It’s essential that a person with lived experience has control over their own story and how it is shared. The sharing of one’s story should have a purpose and shouldn’t be simply providing shock value or sensationalizing an issue.

Resources* Toolkit: Building Survivor Informed Organizations * SAMHSA’s 6 Guiding Principles to a Trauma-Informed Approach * Survivor Alliance * National Survivor Network * American Psychological Association * National Human Trafficking Training and Technical Assistance Center

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:14
Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. We are back with part two of our episode exploring The Toolkit For Building Survivor Informed Organizations. We’re having a wonderful conversation with Crystal Bennett, a seasoned professional, serving as the Deputy Director of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Accessibility, and Special Initiatives at NHTTAC. I’m not going to do her whole bio again because if you missed the last episode, you have to go back and listen to it. Crystal, thank you so much for coming back, ‘m really excited to dig in again today.

Crystal Bennet 1:23
I’m excited to be back, Sandie.

Sandra Morgan 1:26
All right. Well, we looked at the first six chapters, we looked at the framework, and we understand that this is a critical toolkit that provides opportunity for assessment along the way. So your organization should be thinking, as you look at this, to do the assessments that populate every chapter, and then in six months go back and do it again. And in a year, do it again, because we can do better when we know better, but we’re more likely to do better if we measure our progress. We’re going to jump in to chapter seven, and talk about human resource development and training. I think this was one of the most insightful chapters for me, Crystal, because I’ve been around a long time, I’ve heard a lot of the content. But this particular approach with going beyond the walls of my center, and going to our human resources, and making sure this is part of onboarding. So talk to us about how that helps with our culture shift.

Crystal Bennet 2:59
Absolutely, Sandie. I would say chapter seven is probably the longest chapter in the toolkit, which I think really emphasizes the importance when we’re thinking about our recruitment processes, our hiring practices, our onboarding protocols, and our training processes, and making sure that every single component of each of those has those guiding principles integrated throughout. Just to remind us about those guiding principles, based on SAMHSA’s six principles of a trauma informed approach, safety, trustworthiness, transparency, peer support, collaboration and mutuality, empowerment, voice and choice, and cultural, historical, and gender considerations. What that looks like is, when we’re thinking about our job postings, our salaries the way that we interview, the questions that we ask, our background screening processes, our training, our supervision, is that those should be integrated throughout each of those, and be very intentional. We first look at our hiring practices and the way that we recruit. This is where you want to assess your job postings, and are your job postings intentional around explicitly stating your organization’s commitment to those guiding principles? Because there should be no surprises when an employee or a potential employee applies for a position and then learns that there are these expectations to be trauma informed, to be person centered, to be equity focused. When we’re looking at creating those job postings, do we find that salary transparency is practiced? So somebody who’s applying can look at the salary range and determine for themselves if they would then want to apply. Having salary transparency also helps to mitigate any inequities in salaries when we’re thinking about individuals from minoritized and marginalized communities that when there is not a salary range listed, and a potential employer ask somebody how much money they would like to make, is that oftentimes we find that individuals from marginalized communities will potentially lowball themselves because there have been situations throughout our history in which we find that marginalized folks just have not experienced being valued and compensated accordingly. We also want to look at what are the requirements to support the potential employment of people, particularly people with lived experience, in looking at the possibility of creating exemptions for those with criminal history or removing drug testing requirements? Do our job descriptions demonstrate that we value not only learned experience, but lived experience? Then that creates some opportunity to replace a particular amount of lived or professional experience. So an example that’s provided in the toolkit is perhaps you have a job posting, where you would like someone with a master’s degree in social work. However, that requirement might be met by having someone who has a bachelor’s degree in a related area, and maybe experience in the field, or has lived experience, as we think about that as well. Looking at where are we recruiting? So where are we advertising positions? Do we have relationships with culturally specific schools? Historically, black colleges and universities? Colleges and universities that serve tribal communities? Making sure that we’re really expansive and thinking about where are we recruiting? What organizations might we be able to partner with, organizations that work specifically with individuals with lived experience of trafficking, such as the Survivor Alliance, National Survivor Network, also using non traditional methods of approaching. Again, just aligning with all of our guiding principles as we’re thinking about our recruitment, as we’re looking at how our job postings are written, as we’re creating opportunities for training, where we’re thinking about what is the baseline that we would want someone to come in, in terms of their knowledge or expertise around these trauma informed principles? And then where can we really enhance knowledge and expertise through our training, and through our support in ensuring that people have adequate understanding of safety and crisis protocols, that they receive training and support on trauma, trauma reactions, and creating a trauma informed culture within an organization? Lastly, when we’re thinking about professional development, is creating opportunities where continuing education, and perhaps certification is available, where an agency may be able to provide some sort of financial assistance for team members to pursue additional training opportunities, and certifications to ultimately support what their broader career goals might be.

Sandra Morgan 8:35
So one of the questions that has kind of nagged at me since I read this a few months ago, is the concept of supervision, trauma-informed supervision. I’ve been hiring survivors for a very long time, as when it has been part of different work study programs, all of that, and the trauma informed piece has been a learn as you go process. How do you advise an HR department to do trauma informed supervision training?

Crystal Bennet 9:21
Absolutely. I know this also kind of falls into both the HR chapter as well as the wellness chapter. I would certainly encourage organizations to implement reflective supervision practices. When we think about reflective supervision practices, that means that when an employee and a supervisor are meeting for their regular one on ones, is that it’s not just for the purpose of learning about the employees progress on a particular project that they’re working on, but that it’s an opportunity to build relationship, again based on one of your favorite words Sandie, collaboration. When we are creating a supervisor-supervisee relationship through reflective supervision, is that this enhances collaboration and enhances the choices that employees have. It creates trust and it also extends greater control for the person who’s being supervised. Some of the components of reflective supervision include just reflective listening. Reflective listening is we’re creating the space to hear the stories of those that were supervising, and then we’re reflecting to make sure that we can capture the essence accurately of, “Hey, what I heard you say is…,” or, “Can you help me understand a little bit more about on one hand, I hear you say that you really enjoy working out in the community and interacting with people. But on the other hand, it sounds like the work is really heavy and you feel overburdened, or you feel overwhelmed at times,” and really being able to bring emotion into it. I know, early on in my career, I was kind of taught to leave your personal life at the door and just come into the workplace, and that there’s no place for emotion. But I think when we really are creating a trauma informed culture, is that we create that space for emotion, knowing that people are people, and even though we might be working with people who’ve experienced trauma, those that work within our organizations, are people as well, so we all have instances in which maybe we have a history of trauma, or we are experiencing just instances in our daily life that are traumatic. Being able to ask, “How is the work impacting you as the person and as you’re working with people, what are the thoughts and the feelings that come up? How are you making sure that you’re able to really honor those feelings and to create the space to dissipate some of those strong feelings, so that they’re not being held in the body?” Then, through supervision, is that it’s okay for us to share times where maybe we felt nervous, or we felt frustrated, and bringing that humanity into that space. Also just asking people what are the most stressful parts of the job? Or where did they find joy? And what are they proud of? Because a lot of the times in the work that people do when working with folks who have experienced trauma, we fail to take time to find joy, and sometimes all we see is the trauma, but people are more than their trauma. We have to not only consider what’s happened to somebody, but also consider what’s right with somebody, and how do we really center those strengths and that joy?

Sandra Morgan 13:06
I love that! That just slides us right into chapter eight.

Crystal Bennet 13:11
It was not intentional.

Sandra Morgan 13:14
You’re just that good.

Crystal Bennet 13:16
Yeah, so chapter eight is all about wellness. It’s interesting that there is a separate chapter for it, and I think just like we’re talking about these trauma informed principles being integrated throughout, is wellness is really integrated throughout all of the sections of the toolkit. As I think about wellness, again, I’ll bring my quotes back in the space, but a really amazing quote that I literally have printed and it sits in front of me by Nikita Valerio is, “Shouting ‘self-care’ at people who actually need community care is how we fail people.”

Sandra Morgan 13:58
Say that one more time, because somebody driving is like, ‘where do I pull over?’

Crystal Bennet 14:03
Yes, “Shouting ‘self-care’ at people who actually need community care is how we fail people.”

Sandra Morgan 14:13
Wow.

Crystal Bennet 14:15
Right? I mean, just think about that for a moment and think about how many times we place the onus of responsibility on the shoulders of an individual person for their own well being. That’s a very individualized approach to self care and to well being. I think really, to truly honor wellness and to truly maintain staff retention, satisfaction, buy- in, and good emotional, mental, and physical health for everyone that we’re working with, is that we have to do more to wrap around people as a community. This really looks at not just encouraging people to take time, but in the assessment, it’s really asking you as an organization to evaluate, how does your organization create space for some of that self care? How does an organization create space so that maybe people who need a little bit more time or are going through something don’t feel stigmatized, but feel encouraged? And that as an organization, as a supervisor, we’re taking time to address vicarious trauma, and burnout, and compassion fatigue, and that we’re really again, wrapping our arms around our team where perhaps team members are able to engage in some wellness together, and create that community and camaraderie together, through some initiatives that are supported by the organization to make sure that there’s flexibility, there’s time to connect with others, there’s times to just pause and hold space for people. And when people do take time off, how do we help to cover some of the responsibilities and tasks that people might have on their plate, so that people don’t come back in from PTO, perhaps wishing that they’d never taken time off because they’re walking back in to all of the work that was left for them while they were on leave.

Sandra Morgan 16:41
I love that one of the assessments, and you have to answer “no, never, occasionally, yes, always,” is “Does staff receive training on vicarious trauma, secondary traumatic stress, and how to develop healthy coping skills?” I think you remember that my background is nursing. I used to take call in the operating room, and if there was a car accident, something really over the top, unexpected, once the emergency had passed, the whole team that responded came back together, walked through how they processed, what they did, affirmed each other, and took time for that reflection. There’s no blood and guts here, so I just pack up my computer and go home. I love that this is intentional, and maybe this is going to be the first assessment I do. I’m already starting to plan the next academic year. That would probably help me a lot in chapter nine with Trauma Informed Supervision. I always get ahead of myself and want you to answer questions before we get to that chapter.

Crystal Bennet 18:04
Absolutely. I think we’ve already talked a lot about this when we thought about HR and wellness, so I certainly won’t regurgitate what we’ve already talked about. But trauma informed supervision is key when we’re thinking about opportunities to reflect on our organization’s mission, vision, and culture, and to receive feedback from staff. That’s what I really want to emphasize, is that in the toolkit, it talks about supervision as a way to receive feedback from staff. I really just want listeners to reflect on their experience with supervision, because I think oftentimes, when I think about my own experience in history with supervision, is that I’ve believed that supervision was for me to receive feedback from my supervisor. So really making that shift around how do we engage in supervision, almost through the lens of like a 360 degree, where it’s based again on that mutuality, where there’s an opportunity for supervisors to touch in with team members, and to touch in on progress on projects, and to talk about how the work is impacting the employee, and how do we find that the guiding principles are being implemented into the work. There’s the opportunity for individuals who are the supervisee to also share back with the supervisor around how is the work impacting them? What’s the impact of policies, or procedures, or opportunities for us to create change and continue to do our work in a better and a different way? Supervision, especially when we’re looking at the lens of an individual with lived experience being part of our team, is important to move someone who may have been a client into a staff roll, or someone who has received services previously, even outside of our agencies, but are coming in to our organizations as a newer team member, that how are we really investing in our team members to provide opportunities for growth and development, and building on opportunities for growth while also acknowledging the strengths that our team members already have, and finding ways where those strengths can be centered so that people feel like they’re able to do their work autonomously, and with that sense of pride? It’s not just about looking at growth areas, but really, is supporting our team to continue to build upon their own strengths. In this section, you’ll also see a piece around promoting wellness. Again, as a supervisor, how are we modeling taking care of ourselves? That’s one area that I can definitely say, even for myself and various positions that I’ve held as a supervisor, is that I don’t always do well at creating the space for myself to take self-care. I can’t push a staff member to care for themselves, if they’re watching me not take care of myself, and so that modeling is so instrumental to make sure that you know, we’re practicing what we are preaching, so that we’re setting boundaries, and also encouraging all team members to set those boundaries.

Sandra Morgan 21:59
Okay, I’m going work on that, I promise. Next time I talk to you.

Crystal Bennet 22:03
Am I speaking directly to you, Sandie?

Sandra Morgan 22:05
Yes, you are, ma’am. Another thing about the toolkit that I want to tell people is, particularly at the end of each chapter, there is a resource box. Because this was an area of greater concern for me, I spent some time looking at the links on trauma informed supervision. It included the American Psychological Association and their practices, trauma informed attunement and self assessment in supervision, just some resources, and that happens in every chapter. Okay, moving along to chapter 10, ‘When you’re moving from program participant, to agency representative.’ Oh my goodness! This is where sometimes the collision happens, and we want to protect people from any harm. So walk us through chapter 10.

Crystal Bennet 23:13
Absolutely. When I think about my career, and I think about a lot of people that are doing not just anti-trafficking work, but a lot of work in which we’re working with folks who have experienced trauma, I think that many of us have our own histories of trauma. That’s really what this particular section is about, is how do we move someone who maybe has had their own trauma, particularly with trafficking, and has been a client, to now helping them to transition into being an employee, or a consultant, or a volunteer, while realizing that our services or the services that the person is engaging with, need to take precedence? It’s really important that this section is about looking at what ethical violations might exist? How do we make sure that we’re very clear around the boundaries? And again, how do we evaluate our culture to make sure that our organization is trauma informed, that there are policies and processes that are in place to support a client’s transition? Making sure confidentiality, right? If we’re working with someone who was a client and is now coming alongside us as a team member, is there absolute confidentiality maintained, if we have knowledge or if we’ve learned about the provision? Compensation. Again, compensation is important because we go back to that word that we talked about in the very first part of this podcast. We don’t want to tokenize people, we don’t want to harm people. Oftentimes there are naturally power imbalances that exist when you are in the position to provide services, and we want to make sure that we’re mitigating those power imbalances, and not providing a situation in which someone feels like they can’t tell us ‘no.’ I know that the next chapter will talk about the marketing media, but also in this chapter, which is a really good segue into chapter 11, is that you’ll find a call-out box. When we think about empowering survivors, there is a call-out box that talks about asking a program participant to speak at a speaking engagement, and how that creates a dual relationship between being a helping professional, and then also trying to provide an employment opportunity that might make it difficult, or virtually impossible for that client to feel like they can actually say, ‘no.’ Because they don’t want to disappoint you as the person who is providing services, or the organization, and have that impact the ability for them to continue to receive services.

Sandra Morgan 26:13
Let’s go into that next chapter where that overlap is. I feel like you have access to my calendar and you have seen these challenges happen. How can I make sure that a survivor team member always is able to say no, without fear of any loss of appreciation in our friendship and our working relationship? How do I do that?

Crystal Bennet 26:50
Yeah. The good news is you have an entire assessment there in chapter 11. But I think it really boils down to the principles of ethical storytelling. I certainly would encourage folks, I think I mentioned the National Survivor Network previously, that there are resources available through the National Survivor Network, around ethical storytelling, and certainly many other resources out there. I don’t want to negate any of the other resources that are out there. But we want to make sure that people that we are potentially asking to share their story, are the owners of their story. We really need to ask ourselves, what is the purpose, and why we’re asking someone to share the story? Is it because of some benefit to that person and that it might feel empowering to them? Or is there some benefit to us in asking someone to share their story? We should never be asking someone to share their story in a way where it’s to sensationalize an issue, or create shock value, or can create in all honesty, secondary trauma to the audience. Also, when we think about storytelling, we have to think about, in what ways are we asking someone to share their story? An example that I would use is, do we want someone to share their story in a way that our organization looks like the hero, looks like the rescuer, looks like that if it wasn’t for us and our services, that perhaps this person would not be in the situation or position that they’re in? That’s really harmful to individuals who’ve experienced the harm, because we are not the heroes here. While we may engage in actions to create pathways to exit or to mitigate some of the barriers, is that people hold power inherent to them. Sometimes, it’s about us creating the space, or moving out of the way so that their power can be centered. We don’t want a story to unintentionally reinforce harmful stereotypes or stigmas that are already out there. So I definitely would encourage that if you are part of an organization that does marketing, or media, or fundraising, or presentations where you are asking individuals to share their stories, that you really take time to look at this assessment and that you’re always creating the space for the individual to remain in control of the ‘when,’ the ‘how,’ the ‘why,’ that they’re sharing that story. That you talk to the individual around what might be the pros and cons, and allow the individual to evaluate the pros and cons of sharing their story. Make sure that anyone who is sharing their story is compensated. That’s essential, and compensated based on comparable positions that are available, and that we’re really focusing on the strength and the healing, and then providing follow up. Because sometimes we think that because someone often speaks about trafficking, and/or their story, that they’re just okay following an event, but going back to being trauma informed, what is the follow up that we have in place? What are the resources and the supports, and potential services that are in place, so that people do have the time and space to process, and decompress, and heal from that experience?

Sandra Morgan 27:03

I think we may need to schedule another podcast interview and talk just about the media implications here, because this assessment, I think anyone who has been doing this for a while already has a media policy, but this should be applied to it to see how you can improve. There is one sentence item on the assessment: “Minors are not asked to share their personal history of exploitation publicly.” This is an area I’ve gone round and round with, on people who say that when I don’t let them, and they really want to, that that takes away their power. How do you answer that question?

Crystal Bennet 31:54

I think that the real question is, is there a way to tell one’s story or to have ownership of one’s experience, in a way where we’re not putting that child, that youth, in front of people? We’re not using their photos, we’re not using one’s name, because we know that so many things that we might do today can have really long term implications, and helping a young person to really process through what could be the safety implications. Helping them understand where it could be re-exploitive, or potentially lead to victimization. But are there other ways that a young person can still share their story and their experience, with us being very cognizant of ways to minimize any inadvertent trauma, or retraumatization, or safety issues? I just recall when I was 16, and I was engaging in some therapy support services. That was really big in the group that I was part of, and the facilitator of the group wanted those of us who were engaging in the group to feel like there was a way for our story to to be put out. We were actually able to create art and to create poetry that was anonymous, that was ultimately compiled into a book, and it was distributed within our local community. To know that was my story, and that that was my poem, was something that provided me voice and to create a sense of pride, without everybody needing to know my name.

Sandra Morgan 33:49
I love that. Earlier we talked about joy and pride, and that is a great note to close this podcast with. Crystal, you exude joy and pride, and this toolkit that you’ve really led, this initiative, is going to be valuable at so many levels, and we’ll recommend it. I’ll call you again, and I want people to find out how to connect with the resources. How do people access this amazing toolkit?

Crystal Bennet 34:30
Yes, great question, Sandie. One of the things I want to mention in regards to the toolkit before we close, is that when you access the toolkit, please take a moment to just look at the acknowledgement page of so many amazing experts who are part of the development and informing the toolkit. Because it definitely takes a team, and I cannot take credit for this toolkit. There are so many folks that were part of its development and ultimate publication. But you can find this toolkit and you can find many, many, many more of the resources including fact sheets, other toolkits, as I mentioned before, online trainings where there are a number of continuing education hours available for certain areas of expertise, and those can be found on our website, which is nhttac.acf.hhs.gov. I’m going to repeat that and spell it out. NHTTAC, which is nhttac.acf.hhs.gov. I hope that you will all find your way to the website and take advantage of so many of the amazing resources available to inform you as you do this important work.

Sandra Morgan 35:54
Crystal, thank you so much. If you’re driving and you couldn’t write that down, don’t worry. When you get to a safe space, go on over to endinghumantrafficking.org and we’ll have that link on the show notes. And you can find other resources we’ve mentioned now, and if you haven’t visited our website before, this is a great time for you to become a subscriber. You’ll receive an email with the show notes every new episode, which is twice a month. And of course, I’ll be back in two weeks for our next conversation.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Crystal Bennett as the two discuss the importance of building survivor informed organizations and how the Toolkit for Building Survivor Informed Organizations serves organizations who seek to do so.

Crystal BennettCrystal Benett is a seasoned professional serving as the Deputy Director of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Accessibility, and Special Initiatives at the National Human Trafficking Training and Technical Assistance Center. With a rich background in social justice, advocacy, and community engagement, Crystal is dedicated to fostering inclusive environments and advancing initiatives that combat human trafficking.

Key Points* The Toolkit for Building Survivor Informed Organizations is for organizations who serve individuals who have experienced trafficking, are working to prevent situations where an individual may experience trafficking, or are wanting to include individuals with lived experience in anti-trafficking efforts. * SAMHSA’s 6 Guiding Principles to a Trauma-Informed Approach are vital in the Toolkit for Building Survivor Informed Organizations. The principles guide organizations in cultivating a physically and psychologically safe environment. * It’s important to listen to and uplift the voices of those with lived experience in order to guide the work of the anti-human trafficking movement. * An organization should ensure that all staff members have access to self care and should have a foundation set in which leadership shows a commitment to the organization’s ability to achieve its mission. * It is essential to ensure the culture of an organization values all staff and members, giving individuals with lived experience control over their stories and whether or not they are shared. * Equity represents access and opportunity.

Resources* Toolkit: Building Survivor Informed Organizations * National Human Trafficking Training and Technical Assistance Center * Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration * SAMHSA’s 6 Guiding Principles to a Trauma-Informed Approach * Human Trafficking Leadership Academy * On the “VIBE” Framework

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:14
Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast, here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan. This is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today, we’re going to explore the Toolkit For Building Survivor Informed Organizations. I talk to people all the time, who say, “Well, we have had a conversation with so and so who is a survivor and they tick the box.” Well, I’m here to tell you today that our guest is going to show you there are a lot more boxes to tick on this. Our guest today is from the National Human Trafficking Training and Technical Assistance Center. Crystal Benett is a seasoned professional serving as the Deputy Director of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Accessibility, and Special Initiatives at the National Human Trafficking Training and Technical Assistance Center. With a rich background in social justice, advocacy, and community engagement, Crystal is dedicated to fostering inclusive environments and advancing initiatives that combat human trafficking. As I’ve followed her leadership, I have admired how she’s driving strategic planning and implementation of programs, and it is a delight to have you on our show today. Crystal, thank you.

Crystal Bennet 2:09
Thank you, Sandie. It’s an absolute honor to be here.

Sandra Morgan 2:12
So Crystal, I want to start with who is this toolkit for?

Crystal Bennet 2:18
Yeah, Sandie. I think that there are a lot of organizations that are currently serving individuals who’ve experienced trafficking, or are working to prevent situations where an individual may experience trafficking, or maybe wanting to bring in individuals with lived experience to be a guide, and support a leader to really help to implement practices around anti trafficking efforts. I think this toolkit really can be for many folks across the gamut. Whether it’s individuals who may be providing funding to support organizations, to support the work with individuals who have experienced trafficking, or it can be for organizations that are currently providing services or who are providing preventative services. So I think that’s often organizations that are missed, is that if we don’t do anti-trafficking work, we think that this work is not for us. But many of the services, when we’re thinking about upstream determinants of health and meeting, just basic needs of folks, can be considered anti-trafficking work, because they do fall into the scope of being prevention.

Sandra Morgan 3:28
So as we dive into the toolkit, let’s review the guiding principles, because they show up throughout this toolkit. I think it is important that any organization is clear and has these principles somewhere on a wall, in a handbook, in a policy guide.

Crystal Bennet 3:53
Absolutely. So when we look at the guiding principles, really, as you said, this is the overarching framework for any organization when we’re thinking about involving those with lived experience, or working with individuals with lived experience. We’re really looking at Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration’s, otherwise known as SAMHSA’s, 6 Guiding Principles to a Trauma-Informed Approach. Those principles are around how do you as an organization, create safety? To make sure that not just those that you’re working with, but also those that work within your organization feel safe physically, and psychologically. Also looking at trustworthiness and transparency. Does your organization conduct work in a way where decisions are made transparently and maintain that level of trust? Because I think many of us are familiar with being part of organizations where decisions are being made, but we’re not really sure why the decisions are made, or having the opportunity to be part of those decisions. Also peer support. Peer support is not, again, just about providing someone with lived experience to those that we’re serving, but also thinking within the organization, how are we engaging with each other in a way that really holds space for the work that we’re doing, and allows people to just show up as themselves with that availability of one another to align with and support us? Collaboration and mutuality. How do we see some of the leveling around power differentials that often exist, either between staff persons at various levels, or when we think about service providers or individuals within an organization, meeting the needs of those out in the community, and making sure that everyone has an opportunity to be part of decision making, sharing power, and recognizing the value that everyone brings into the space. And then the last two, e mpowerment voice, and choice is really around providing choices and centering the strengths that are inherent to each and every one of us, to cultivate an environment of contribution to organizational decision making and policy setting. Lastly, cultural, historical, and gender issues. This is really looking at how does our organization address the explicit and implicit biases and historical trauma? We do this through practicing cultural competence, being culturally humble, and then ultimately changing the way that we work through being culturally responsive in our protocols and our policies to ensure that people’s needs are best met.

Sandra Morgan 6:44
Some of the language that you use, it’s so natural, but really inspires me. The terms around leveling and centering are words that make me feel like there’s room for me somewhere in this space. It balances with the use of language around biases, where I’m afraid that I’ve got biases, and I’m going to hurt somebody, so I have to be really careful. Your approach to looking at this as a framework also, is not just a structure that, “Oh, you’re an organization, you need to do these thing,” but this is also a foundation that makes your whole organization stronger, and more suited for a broader community to be involved. We do need that mutuality and that collaboration. Collaboration, people who know me for very long, they know that is my favorite word. Let’s dig into this now, and let’s start out with how this toolkit should be implemented.

Crystal Bennet 8:06
Yeah, and one thing, as you were talking, Sandie, that really just came to mind as I thought about the “why” that the toolkit is there, as we think about the “why” that people do the work, right? I think when we’re thinking about implementation and organizational readiness, is certainly creating the space for organizations to ask themselves the why. Why are we doing this work? Why do we want to engage with individuals with lived experience? Why do we want to make sure that we’re survivor informed? I really think about the slogan, “Nothing about us, without us, is for us.” We know that that’s been rooted in the disability justice movement, but as we think about being able to consider that phrase, as it’s related to the involvement of individuals with lived experience and informing our work, is it is absolutely necessary when we think about the implementation of this work to recognize, uplift, affirm, and utilize the voices of those who have experienced the situations to really guide the work ultimately, that we’re going to be doing. I think your question was, how should organizations implement that? I would start with the “why” first, and then really think about the “how.” Because the “why” gives us the vision. Why are we doing this? We can see it, we know what the vision is, and then the “how” is that there are resources such as this toolkit, to really start going through the various chapters to identify: Is your organization ready to do some self assessment? And making sure that we’re doing that self assessment because that’s so critical, rather than just jumping into the work and taking action steps that you’re not able to really evaluate or hold yourself accountable to how you’re doing it.

Sandra Morgan 10:05
One of the things I really appreciate about this toolkit is how it is designed. Sometimes I get really good information and then I’m trying to figure out the “how,” what you’re talking about. This is laid out with the structure, and the assessment for whatever that point is. So if you’re not naturally inclined to creating an assessment plan, don’t worry, it’s already here. Let’s talk about this. We’re going to do six chapters today. Hahaha, we’re actually going to point you to six chapters, and then I’ve asked Crystal if she’ll come back in two weeks, and we’ll do the last chapters. We’re going to take our time. Let’s start off, you’ve already mentioned organizational readiness, let’s jump into chapter two.

Crystal Bennet 11:04
Chapter two. We’re looking at Mission, Vision, and Leadership. So as I was starting to kind of preface this conversation, is when we’re thinking about our missions. It’s really around the action of what does your organization do? Who is it serving? And how do we serve those that we’re serving? And then that vision is what is it that we’re hoping to solve, create, or influence? I really think about that vision as to what do we see as a result of the work that we’re doing? In chapter two, with looking at our mission, vision, and leadership, we want to make sure that your organization has a clear, concise mission statement. Does that clear, concise mission statement, was that informed ultimately, by individuals with lived experience, community members, or collaborators, as you think about those that are impacted by human trafficking? Here, when we’re thinking about the being informed by, we want to look at what stage did we bring people in to inform us? Because I think sometimes what happens, is maybe a bunch of people sit around, and we start to gather ideas and thoughts, and put together a mission statement and vision statement, and then we just have maybe that group of individuals with lived experience look at it to give us the sign off. It’s important in all of this work, as we’re going chapter to chapter to chapter, is that we really want to look at how are we involving individuals with lived experience, from the very start through the end, so that we don’t fall into the trap of tokenism. You’ll see that word throughout the toolkit, but just as a moment to define that is that tokenism is a superficial practice that creates the appearance of inclusivity and diversity. It can really be symbolic, rather than ensuring that all people who are involved in our work have equal opportunity to make decisions and have power to have decision making abilities. I just really want to note that. But additionally, in the mission, vision, and leadership section, it’s looking at how does your organization ensure that all staff members in your organization have access to self care, in order to be able to avoid vicarious trauma? Does our leadership, including our board, show a commitment to the organization’s ability to achieve the mission and not just verbally, but also making sure that there’s an allocation of funding to support the work? And that everyone within the organization understands the current issues that are relevant to the organization, and continue to receive training and support to implement those guiding principles that we originally talked about. So really, this looks like in practice, it looks like ensuring really the foundation is set when we’re thinking about our mission, our vision, and the leadership within our organizations.

Sandra Morgan 14:18
One of the things that really appealed to me about the title of this particular chapter, is that it talks about mission and vision, which I always skim that. But when I got to this chapter and it said leadership, there’s a whole page of practical strategies and tips. So if you’re inspired by the motivational content here, but you have trouble with putting it into action, this toolkit has the starting point for making it part of your organization. Those tips are really important. And it uses language of evaluation and assessment. It talks about promising practices, and policies, and procedures. And those are things that are going to operationalize our good intentions, we have a wonderful mission, we have great vision, but how we get there, that is the part where things often get a little dicey, and maybe even fall apart. I want to sit here in chapter two, but we’re going to keep moving. Let’s go on to chapter three. I love this chapter because it is going to challenge you to change the culture, to shift. I’m going to stop because Crystal is the expert here.

Crystal Bennet 16:05
No, keep going, Sandie. Just kidding! As we think about this chapter, and I’m a person that holds a lot of quotes in my head because I really do get inspired by so many individuals who do a lot of work and can provide guidance on a way forward. So as I think about organizational culture, I’m reminded of a quote: “Culture eats strategy for breakfast.”

Sandra Morgan 16:31
Oh, who said that?

Crystal Bennet 16:33
So that actually is a quote, by someone by the name of Peter Drucker, who is a management consultants. I find that it shows up so often, in like anything I do. Oftentimes as organizations, I think we invest a lot of time and strategy, and it’s not to say that strategy isn’t necessary, but strategy will only get us so far if the organizational culture is not ready to do this work. So many of us understand, in our day to day, when we’re working, is that we may be part of organizations that have a lot of amazing written policies, written practices, have amazing strategic plans, but when we think about our organizational culture, is that that ultimately impacts the delivery as we think about the norms that might be ingrained in our day to day, that can create high turnover and impede our ability to pursue our organizational goals and objectives. Really thinking about your culture is about thinking or analyzing your programs and policies to make sure, again going back to those six principles of trauma informed approach, is your organization seeking to minimize tokenization, re-victimization, and re-exploitation? Do we value our team members as people, rather than having an expectation that we ask staff to speak directly about their personal lived experience? Do we make sure that we’re giving individuals with lived experience control over when, and how, and where they share their stories, if they even desire to share those stories, and we’re practicing informed consent? This goes back, Sandie, to your comment around loving collaboration, right? So when we’re thinking about our culture, does our organization culture promote that mutuality and that collaboration amongst all individuals within the organization, at all levels, our volunteers, our communities, and key partnerships that we have with other organizations or groups within our communities? Are we consistently valuing our people, right? I think value is something you can’t necessarily write in a policy, but it’s about how do people feel? And do people feel that they’re valued and that they belong?

Sandra Morgan 19:14
I am so inspired. And when I get inspired, I want to go rush in and do something. But this toolkit, and I’m going to keep bringing our listeners back, download the toolkit, it’s free. I’m on page 17, and then these things that Crystal just identified, there is an assessment and you have to check the box. No, never, we don’t do that, or occasionally we get it right, or yes, always. And if you answer yes, always, please reach out to me because I want to be your best friend. These are important parts of assessment. If you do this now and then you use the toolkit for a year and you go back a year from now, you can measure your progress, but you cannot manage something that you’re not measuring. That’s an old adage. So okay, jumping into chapter four.

Crystal Bennet 20:20
Yes, chapter four. This is really where we’re looking at Survivor Leader Engagement. Survivor leader engagement. The whole premise of this toolkit is recognizing how that engagement is truly foundational upon the ways that anti trafficking organizations and programs should be built. And as Sandie keeps bringing us back to the toolkit, and back to our assessment, again, you have a self guided assessment tool. This particular assessment tool was created by the Human Trafficking Leadership Academy, which certainly feel free to visit the website and learn more about the Human Trafficking Leadership Academy, because there’s some phenomenal work there as we think about using individuals who have lived and learned experience to help inform our practice. So this particular assessment looks at how does your program or project provide opportunities for survivors? Really looking at those employment opportunities that are through various levels within an organization. This is where we want to be mindful that we’re not merely bringing on individuals with lived experience to serve at maybe entry level or frontline positions, but do we look at their expertise to determine where their expertise aligns with carrying out positions perhaps in management, leadership, advisory boards, boards of directors? Also, if you do not have someone who may have lived experience on your team, being able to bring in consultants. Again, when we’re thinking about feedback from individuals with lived experience, these are paid opportunities, so that we’re minimizing that tokenization, and further harm and exploitation. We’re looking at the diversity of community, when we’re thinking about those with lived experiences. Trafficking, we know encompasses both sex and labor trafficking, and can look very different when we think about the experience of trafficking, and so just being mindful that there’s not a one size fits all, and it doesn’t fit neatly in a particular box. We’re always taking a strength-based approach when we’re bringing in individuals with lived experience, to be part of our projects. As I mentioned, and we’re on page 22 of our toolkit, is that they should be at all stages. You will really see this is highlighted here, where have we accessed the expertise of someone with lived experience in developing the initial program, in developing the policies and procedures, in creating some of the program or project materials, and then continuing to utilize that expertise and uplifting that expertise throughout the entirety of implementation, through the evaluation process, and then ultimately in also obtaining that feedback from those who participated in your projects. We really can see there, the necessity of having survivor voice from start through finish, of any project that we want to plan and implement.

Sandra Morgan 23:46
This brings a question to mind, because you identified there’s no one size fits all, so how do we approach this so that we’re not one sided? I’ve seen that some groups only talk to sex trafficking survivors, and they don’t really have any experience with the labor trafficking victims.

Crystal Bennet 24:14
Absolutely. I think if you’re serving, and you may be an organization where the specific focus of your work is to serve individuals who have experienced sex trafficking, but because we know that there might be intersections between sex and labor trafficking, it’s also important to engage in ongoing professional development and learning opportunities so that you’re aware of the various ways in which trafficking may present itself. It’s really being willing to commit to that ongoing learning and development, because you’re right, if you only know one thing, or if you’re only communicating with individuals who have the experience and expertise on a particular topical area, it may not even cross your mind to consider accessing various resources and education. I would certainly say, to commit to ongoing education to ensure that you are educated in all areas. That’s one of the great things about the work done with NHTTTAC through the US Department of Health and Human Services Office on Trafficking in Persons, is that there are a lot of resources besides just the toolkit, that are available. There are free trainings online that are offered, many that offer continuing education hours, and many of our trainings do offer insights that are inclusive of both sex and labor trafficking. Certainly accessing those resources to continue to remain up to date with the most current information.

Sandra Morgan 25:53
From my perspective, remember collaboration? From the framework, that element of mutuality and collaboration, I’ve hosted focus groups that are half labor trafficking, and half sex trafficking. I think one of the most informative moments in one of those episodes, was when a sex trafficking victim began crying as she listened to the story of a labor trafficking victim, and began to see a different aspect of the inhumanity of human trafficking. That mutuality, building that community, creating space for those conversations has been a growing, as you probably have framed it, as you have framed this, it’s like professional development. It’s an engaging conversation where everybody in the room grows, and that’s going to be necessary for us to be able to work together to end human trafficking. On the assessment part here, this is an area that I’ve struggled with keeping on track. I’m definitely going to spend a little more time in the practical strategies and tips, as I get ready for the fall semester this summer. Let’s move on to chapter five.

Crystal Bennet 27:39
Let’s do that, absolutely! And Sandie, when you introduced me, you did mention that I’m the Deputy Director here at NHTTTAC where part of my role is diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility, and so I could keep us on this chapter for a really long time, but also noting that we only have so much time, and not enough. When we’re thinking about diversity, equity, inclusion in this work, it’s really about, again, going back to that culture shift. As organizations, as programs, how are we paying attention to incorporate social responsibility, social concern, social accountability, and social justice into our organizations? I know that that’s a mouthful there, but the key word is “social,” and really about humanity, and about people, and aligning our work to the larger impact by ensuring that we’re amplifying the voices of all people and increasing those opportunities for communities who have experienced not just historical oppression and marginalization, but where we find that there continue to be present day inequities and harms around oppression. When we’re looking at diversity, equity, inclusion, again, I bring us back as an organization, is finding common language around what do these terms mean to us? Sometimes we can get stuck on the term “diversity,” which is really about how people differ from one another which is inclusive of, but not limited to, race, ethnicity, culture, sexual orientation, gender expression, national origin, religion, ability, but really thinking about equity. That’s about how do people access and have opportunities in order to eliminate barriers and decrease and mitigate disparities when we’re thinking about inequitable outcomes? One of the recommendations in this toolkit is for staff and leadership to engage in ongoing opportunities for education and training around implicit and explicit bias, but also thinking about that practice of cultural humility. I want to take a moment here to just call our attention back to that assessment. When you’re assessing, and every time you assess yourself, just really being honest with yourself and your organization in where you are. Again, a quotes person here, but Maya Angelou said, “We do the best we can until we know better. And when we know better, we do better.” I think this provides that opportunity, that maybe there are some things that we just didn’t know, and now that we can really invest the time and resources to completing the assessment, it helps us to know, and then as Sandie has continued to say, is that then there are the practical strategies and tips so that we can then do better. The things that we really need to make sure that we’re doing better at, is to ensure that decision making and policy setting is made with inclusivity of diverse voices and demographics, particularly with individuals with lived experience. Individuals who are two spirited, LGBTQIA plus persons, and culturally and linguistically diverse people, ensuring that our organizations and our staff are reflective of the communities that we serve, and that staff in our organizations, if they’re not reflective, what are the partnerships that we have with other organizations and service providers that are in our communities? We make sure that when we’re creating any type of job postings, or any type of communications content or products, that we’re creating those using plain language, and that we’re using language that really resonates with people that we’re marketing those particular resources to. There’s organizational advancement opportunities that are open, they’re transparent, they’re inclusive of individuals with lived experience, they’re unbiased, and that they mitigate barriers. Additionally, making sure that every person that’s part of our organization has that training and understanding on working with individuals from communities that really span the gamut when we think about variances in culture and the way that we’re able to resonate with people.

Sandra Morgan 32:45
All of this part of the assessment really reflects your lead-in statement that equity represents access and opportunity. Too many times people talk motivationally about empowerment, creating opportunity, but if we do not create access, which means you build the bridge, you build the steps, you plow the pathway forward, without access, it’s just aspirational. Our last chapter we’re going to look at today is chapter six. Don’t worry, we’re going to be back in two weeks.

Crystal Bennet 33:31
Yes, chapter six, Organizational Policies and Procedures. We identify three guidelines in this sectio, when we think about policies and procedures that are able to support the practices within organizations to be in alignment with its missions. When we’re looking at our policies and procedures, we want to be sure that our policies and procedures do not create additional barriers in the work. We want to make sure that they are person-centered and that again, they incorporate those guiding principles in being trauma informed, being ethical, being person-centered, into all of our policies, all of our procedures. Again, you will find an assessment here with some tips. But one of the key tools that I want to leave you all with as we start to wrap up our time together today, is that I recently came across a framework that was developed by an individual out of Sacramento State and it’s called the VIBE Framework, V, I, B, E. This framework, I have found so instrumental in a lot of the work that I do when I’m thinking about reviewing policies and procedures through an equity lens. The V stands for views. You would look at your policies or procedures, or as you’re sitting down to create a new policy or procedure, and you would ask yourself whose views are being centered. Whose views were centered in the creation of this policy or this procedure, or whose views are being centered as we’re thinking about the creation of the policy or procedure? Inclusion is the I. We would ask ourselves, are those who are going to be most directly impacted, included in providing their views? First we’re asking whose views are centered, the “I” is, are the views that are part of being centered, those that are most directly impacted by this policy or by this procedure? The “B” is for benefits and burdens. We want to ask ourselves, who does this policy or procedure benefit, who might it burden? Then the “E” is for equity. Will the decision or the policy lead to equity? Or might it further inequities? I want to just give an example of how this sometimes can play out. In my experience I’ve done a lot of service provision, and I’ve had a really great opportunity to work in organizations. One policy that I often see pretty reflective in a lot of work around service provision, is a late or no show policy. When I think about the “B” around the benefit and the burden, and I think about who might this policy benefit, versus who might it burden, we have to reflect on if you have a late or no-show policy where perhaps maybe someone if they’re 10 minutes or more late, the appointment gets canceled, then we have to think about well, who might be the people who are more likely to be 10 minutes or more late? It might be someone who relies on public transportation. It might be someone that lives in a particular area of town, it may be someone from a rural community where there’s less access to transportation. Maybe a single parent who is caring for children and needs to get their children off to school, or off to daycare. We can start to see that then that can create some disparities, resulting in folks from particular communities then being underserved. That then could lead to greater inequities when we’re thinking about who might benefit the most from our services, and because of some of those policies and procedures, just not be able to have access.

Sandra Morgan 37:49
There’s my word, “access before opportunity.” This is so good. What a great conversation. This toolkit is a valuable resource. I want you to go to the website so you can find a link to download it. We’re only halfway through our discussion, so come back and join us again in two weeks when Crystal will walk us through the second half. If you haven’t been to our website, endinghumantrafficking.org, that’s where you can find all the resources we’ve mentioned and so much more. See you again in two weeks.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan looks back on episode #208: The Intersection of Children’s Rights and Combating Human Trafficking, with Rabbi Diana Gerson.

Rabbi Diana GersonRabbi Diana Gerson is the associate executive vice president of the New York Board of Rabbis. She has been a leading advocate with the New York Board of Rabbis role in confronting family violence, sexual abuse, and the exploitation of children by reaching across faith communities. Rabbi Gerson has developed programs for the New York City’s mayor’s office to combat domestic violence and has provided prevention education to thousands of community leaders and clergy, whose roles she considers critical to ending sexual exploitation and all forms of violence against children. In addition, she also serves on the international steering committee for the interfaith forum on child dignity in the digital world. She received her master’s degree and rabbinic ordination in 2001 from the Hebrew Union College Jewish Institute of Religion in New York City. Diana, we’re so glad to welcome you to the show.

Key Points* One of the largest initiatives globally is the Convention on the Rights of the Child, which was written and ratified by the United Nations in 1989. This is the most widely ratified human rights treaty in the history of our global society, yet the only country who has not ratified this document to date is the United States. * We need to be mindful of the images we share of our children, because they are susceptible to becoming child abuse material. * The whole community, not just parents, has to be aware of the risks and the behaviors of people that might take advantage of their position. For every one adult that has training, at least ten children are safer in their communities.

Resources* Episode #208 * Darkness to Light * National Center for Missing and Exploited Children * NetSmartz * Cyber Tipline

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:14 Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan. This is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. This year’s Ensure Justice Conference focused on keeping our children safe online. What an important topic. We continued the theme right after the conference when we aired episode #315, with Susan Kennedy, also focused on cyber safety. All this really got me thinking about an older episode we aired, #208: The Intersection of Children’s Rights and Combating Human Trafficking, with Rabbi Diana Garrison. I thought this would be a good opportunity to reshare that episode since I think it ties in with what I’ve been thinking, and I hope you find it as thought provoking as I did. Here’s Dave introducing our guest.

Dave [00:01:34] Rabbi Diana Gerson is the associate executive vice president of the New York Board of Rabbis. She has been a leading advocate with the New York Board of Rabbis role in confronting family violence, sexual abuse, and the exploitation of children by reaching across faith communities. Rabbi Gerson has developed programs for the New York City’s mayor’s office to combat domestic violence and has provided prevention education to thousands of community leaders and clergy, whose roles she considers critical to ending sexual exploitation and all forms of violence against children. In addition, she also serves on the international steering committee for the interfaith forum on child dignity in the digital world. She received her master’s degree and rabbinic ordination in 2001 from the Hebrew Union College Jewish Institute of Religion in New York City. Diana, we’re so glad to welcome you to the show.

Diana [00:02:27] Thank you so much for having me. You guys are doing incredibly important and critical work bringing people together for a common cause.

Sandie [00:02:35] And many of our listeners will remember Ernie Allen. And so big shout out to Ernie because he’s the one who introduced Diana and I. And that’s how she came to Vanguard to speak for our Priceless event this year. And it was such a great program and her message was right on target, and the response was incredible so welcome today.

Diana [00:03:02] Thank you so much for having me. And absolutely, Ernie Allen always brings the best people together, he’s really one of the great connectors.

Sandie [00:03:11] So, talking about connections. Let’s talk a little bit about how our work intersects, my work on human trafficking and your work on children’s rights. What do you think are the most common denominators there?

Diana [00:03:26] Well, we’re talking about vulnerable populations, Sandie. Wherever we look there are vulnerable people amongst us, whether they understand that or not, whether they identify as bad or not. And it’s our job really to create safe spaces and opportunities for prevention, and effective responsible response, as well as collaboration.

Sandie [00:03:50] So, one of the big initiatives globally is the Convention on Children’s Rights, right?

Diana [00:03:58] Absolutely. Celebrating its 30th anniversary this November 20th.

Sandie [00:04:03] Do you want to kind of break that down for people who haven’t heard of that before? What is it? What’s its purpose? How does it help our initiative?

Diana [00:04:11] So, the Convention on the Rights of the Child is written and ratified by the United Nations voted on and by the United Nations November 20th of 1989, if you can remember back that far. And it brought together all the countries of the world and was saying that children’s rights are human rights, and we need to do our utmost to protect children because they are vulnerable, and they have no effective voice in government. After all, a five-year-old isn’t going to be able to reach their elected officials or their leader and say, “hey, someone’s got to protect me over here.” And so, it’s set forth a number of policies and protocols for governments to basically set a bar to protect children within community. And it really was a remarkable day, as it went around the world and it is the most widely ratified human rights treaty in the history of our global society.

Sandie [00:04:49] I did not know that. Wow.

Diana [00:04:50] Yes. There’s only one country who has not ratified this document to date.

Sandie [00:04:55] Wow.

Diana [00:04:55] And that’s the United States, very frustrating.

Sandie [00:05:17] We really need to investigate what that is all about.

Diana [00:05:22] Well, I’ve had many many conversations with children’s rights experts and legal experts, and I have heard all kinds of reasons thrown around as to why the Convention on the Rights of the Child has not been ratified by the United States. It was signed at the time, by the president, but it was never ratified by Congress. And while there’s always a movement afoot to try and get it through Senate, which is where we ratify all international treaties that are binding, we don’t seem to have any political will to get this done at this point and not quite sure why but I can posit many guesses, which makes me a great you know guesstimater but not a real critical answer to the question. But it doesn’t mean that we don’t lack the opportunity to engage in its basic tenets. So, children’s rights are universal, and we have to think about how we do protect children, whether we’re protecting children from exploitation online, whether we’re protecting children from some type of a child abuse in the home and community, whether we’re talking about the age of marriage in society. We just watched in India, they have just outlawed marriage for all children under the age of 18. And even in the United States today, this is a slow movement which is going across state by state by state.

Sandie [00:06:46] I just spoke at a forum on child marriage, here in California, because it’s an initiative to follow suit here. At this particular point, only two states in the U.S. have outlawed marriage under the age of 18.

Diana [00:07:02] Exactly right. In fact, the first state was supposed to be New Jersey. And in fact, it was not. It passed in Trenton, and it was vetoed by then the governor. And it was interesting because he vetoed it under the understanding and the thinking that it put an undue burden on faith communities.

Diana [00:07:24] And as a result, Delaware was the first one to pass the law and the faith leaders of New Jersey descended upon Trenton and they said absolutely not. This doesn’t put an undue burden on us, this is us saying we want to protect our kids. And so, it really helped to flip the conversation and then New Jersey, they did pass it again in the next session and it did pass and was signed into law. New York State hasn’t had the same level of success, so I hope California really does.

Sandie [00:07:59] Me too.

Diana [00:08:00] I think it’s really important to protect their only childhood. And we know that for children who are married at a young age, there are so many risk factors for them both health and development and success in life and fulfillment. And we want to make sure that they have the opportunity to grow up first.

Sandie [00:08:13] Exactly. So, vulnerability of children globally, you also serve on I think a steering committee for digital safety, right?

Diana [00:08:26] I do, so I sit actually on two boards. One is the Child’s Alliance board which is chaired by Alan. And that was created back in 2017 after the Child’s Dignity Congress held by the Holy Father, Pope Francis, at the Vatican. He issued the declaration of Rome and set forth an incredible strategic plan on how we as faith communities can come together and really work towards effective change on behalf of children to keep them safe online. The second board I sit on is actually also an outgrowth of the same Congress as a fulfillment of one of the levels of the strategic plan, which is the Interfaith Alliance for Safer Communities. And I sat on their steering committee that launched their global forum in 2018 on Child Dignity in a Digital World.

Sandie [00:09:18] So, what does child dignity in a digital world look like? Everything is, I mean it’s out there on the cloud, how do I understand something I can’t touch?

Diana [00:09:30] Well, we all know that people post photos and videos online every single day. And sometimes its parents posting videos and parents posting photos, and sometimes its children posting videos and photos of themselves, and sometimes it’s people who’ve taken photos of children who don’t have the authority to have those photos and they’re using them for inappropriate and dark activities. And we have to be mindful of what we post online about our children. You know when a baby is born, we post photos of the baby we say the name, we say the date, at the time that they were born, and then these children live their lives kind of before our eyes on social media. But not every photo that was taken perhaps of us when we were kids that are sitting in a photo album in our house would be appropriate to share online. So, we have to think about the really the sexualized images that we’re posting online of children. We don’t necessarily think of this when we think about the family photos of yesteryear. But once a photo is shared online, it can be shared and re-shared, and posted reposted, downloaded and used for other purposes. And it may not be what we thought it was going to be used for, perhaps we just thought it was a nice photo, maybe you thought it was a really funny moment that we want to share with our family and friends. But unfortunately, these kinds of child abuse images are being traded like baseball cards on the dark web. And we need to be really mindful of how images of our children are being used.

Sandie [00:10:59] So, to be just a little more directed than what you’re really saying is that these images can be adapted and used in pornography?

Diana [00:11:10] So, we can we often call them sexual abuse material and it can be used for commercial purposes, absolutely. And they don’t even need to be altered. They can just be added to a group of photos, they can be put together in some kind of a montage if it’s a video of a child. But anything that would be posted online that has a, you know, a display of the genitals of a child of any age would be considered to be child abuse material.

Sandie [00:11:34] Wow.

Diana [00:11:34] And so we have to think about that when we post pictures online and the child can be fully clothed, but if it’s if it’s an explicit display we have to be thinking about that and sometimes we’re talking about young children. And sometimes we’re talking about older children who are posting self-generated pictures that they’re posting themselves or somebody they meet online asks them, send me a picture of yourself, you know send me a picture of yourself in a bikini. Then you get yourself a picture of her naked, all those images can be sent to somebody by a child who may not realize who they’re talking to online. And that material now can be used and misused, over and over and over again because it’s irretrievable, once it leaves your device, you have no idea where it will go.

Sandie [00:12:25] And that’s really hard for concrete thinking to move into the abstract and understand the risk and kids, their brains aren’t developed to the point where they have good risk management skills. They’re more likely to respond in the moment, oh this is fun, I’m having a good time and they’re doing this, not realizing it can come back later and then be used against them and they can be coerced into further explicit activity because they’re threatened that we’re going to send this to your father or your mother or your pastor. And then we start to see more of the actual commercial sexual exploitation that happens in the definitions of trafficking in persons.

Diana [00:13:14] Absolutely. We know that young people don’t have developed skills or really you know the brain development to understand the risks of this kind of behavior.

Sandie [00:13:26] So, we have to do a better job protecting them, right? I don’t mean to talk over you. I just get so frustrated with parents.

Diana [00:13:32] No, that’s ok. We do need to do a better job. I know, well I also think about this. You know I have nieces and nephews and oftentimes you know I see they post stuff on their Instagram, and they post stuff on their Facebook, and they’re on Snapchat and you know especially on Snapchat they just assume it disappears and you know 24 hours it doesn’t stay, Instagram live it doesn’t stay that they can’t figure out a way to download it, but it does stay. Everything leave an impression and imprint on the internet, and somewhere sitting on some server someplace and it will come back at you at some point in our lifetime. They have people, they come into the school, they come in every month and they talk to these kids about the risks and what they have to be aware of. And they’re thinking and they go Oh well that’s not me, it’s not going to happen to me, it doesn’t happen in my community. And there’s a sense of immunity. And what we do know about exploitation of children online digital world, is an equal opportunity destroyer that any child can be impacted negatively. There’s not a day that goes by that I don’t see an article somewhere in the world about some trusted adult who has either been taking photos, has been disseminating or not child pornography, sending it somewhere, uploading it someplace, keeping it on their own device, whether they’re keeping it on their computer at home or a computer even at work. This is something that is going on and people who are in positions of trust within community offend, and they offend thinking that they’ll never be caught because they think that this is a private thing that happens in the dark and they do things in the dark that they think that no one would they would never do in the light. Yeah, they won’t necessarily touch a child on the street, but I hear so often from pastors or rabbis or imams you know, “well if it was online, I didn’t touch the child, so is it a sin?” And I go- Of course it is because you’ve harmed that child and unawareness of what goes on online can actually hurt a child over and over and over again every time that image is shared. And that’s part of the education and the awareness building that we need to do with adults. And I think we have to start with clergy. I think we have to start with the rabbis, and the ministers, and the priests, and the imams, and the sheiks because we have incredible responsibility to our communities.

Sandie [00:15:49] So, how often do you see a faith leader actually speak on this from there during their worship service?

Diana [00:15:59] Not as often as I’d like, and not as often as it needs to be. To talk about an issue once from the pulpit is not enough, we need to create cultures of safety and community where these are issues that we talk about openly and often. They say that the institutional memory of any congregation doesn’t matter what faith, what denomination. If you were there in the room to hear the sermon, or the educational program, or the speaker they say that the institutional memory of a congregation is approximately three years. So, if we’re not talking about it at least every three years, if not more, because ideally, we should be talking about it more because not everybody is always there that one Friday, Saturday, Sunday that class, that speaker. We know how that works. You know last time I went to synagogue we don’t take attendance. Just everybody was there for the day. We need to be talking about it often, we have to really have literature out in our lobbies and inside of our offices, we have to incorporate this into the curriculum for our Sunday schools or our Hebrew schools. We have to empower children, but we have to really give knowledge to parents, we really need to be that resource.

Sandie [00:17:05] And it feels to me, because you’ve already mentioned the fact that we see stories daily of trusted adults who violated these principles. And so, one of the things that I think is really important in our community, is to make sure everybody understands this. It is not just for the parents of children that okay you need to know this to protect your children. The whole community has to be aware of the risks and the behaviors of people that might take advantage of their position, because we’re the ones who keep the whole community safe.

Diana [00:17:47] It takes a village.

Sandie [00:17:48] Absolutely.

Diana [00:17:49] It takes all of us to be that safety net around a child. And it’s up to the faith community, the religious institution, to strengthen the child’s environment. We have to protect kids; not one parent, not one adult. You know there are trainings that we know at least for everyone adult we train, ten kids are safer in that community, whether or not you have a child in your home.

Sandie [00:18:09] Talk about that training. What does that look like?

Diana [00:18:12] So, when I do trainings, I do a lot of work with Darkness to Light, which is a nonprofit based out of Charleston, South Carolina. And I started working with them back in 2007, I want to say, and we know that the stewards of children training and now actually they have an app and they have all kinds of resources out there, but it’s really to empower adults to protect children. And it’s third party evaluated, we know that it works. And we talk about online exploitation of children, we talk about c-sec, we talk about the commercial sexual exploitation of kids, and we know that for everyone adult we train at least 10 kids in that community are safer. And when you’re talking about environments that are urban and we see how many kids we interact with in the course of a day, whether or not I have a child in my home. I don’t have a child in my home, but I can tell you I’ve got probably about 50 kids who live in my building.

Sandie [00:19:14] Wow.

Diana [00:19:15] And I know that I am constantly the eyes and the ears. And everybody in my building knows what I do for a living, and I get knocks on the door saying, “hey I have a question, something’s going on with my kid, I don’t know what’s going on. Will you talk to my child?”

Sandie [00:19:23] Wow. So, you kind of flipped to the conversation. I’ve been in a lot of community meetings and things where they’re talking about doing prevention with the kids. And here’s a curriculum for the kids to make them safer, all of this. But you what you’re saying and what I’m hearing is we actually have to have adults that take that responsibility, we don’t dump that responsibility on a child.

Diana [00:19:48] You know when children hear somebody say oh this is going to be our secret. They know what it means to keep a secret, they don’t tell, or they’re perhaps threatened to don’t tell anyone. Or if you tell somebody, this is going to happen. Children are very aware of their environments. Kids keep secrets. Kids don’t want to tell on people, they want to be the tattletale. We have to ask the questions, we have to be the ones watching, it’s an adult’s responsibility. We can empower kids, we can give them all the tools in the world, we can have a million conversations with them in school, at the end of the day- we know that when we see inappropriate material, whether it’s online or on a child’s phone or we suspect something, 90 percent of the time it’s reported by average adults saying, “you know what this doesn’t feel right. This doesn’t seem right to me.” If you talked to people at Instagram, they’re going to tell you 90 percent of the material that are removed are not removed by their staff, but they’re removed by because someone reported it.

Sandie [00:20:32] Yeah.

Diana [00:20:33] And I can tell you there’s not a week that goes by that I don’t report something I see online.

Sandie [00:20:54] So, you know I would love to see 100 more adults just from listening to this podcast start being just like you.

Diana [00:21:00] If we have one hundred adults start being more aware, at least a thousand kids are going to be safer.

Sandie [00:21:06] I like that math.

Diana [00:21:09] Yeah that’s the power of community. Think about your congregation, think about the average church, how many kids do you have there? How many children are in it, in your doors, in that worship service? I think about when parents are preparing to have their first child. And they take the CPR class and the first aid class, and they take the parenting classes, and they start baby proofing the house before that baby can even turn over. Right?

Sandie [00:21:28] Yeah.

Diana [00:21:29] But how many of them are taking classes to figure out Well how do I keep my kids safe from people who might want to cause harm to my child? Before you hire that first baby sitter, before you for hire that first nanny, before you put your kid into a school. Are we asking: what are your child protection policies? How many of us have asked our actual house of worship: what is your child protection policy? Is it sitting next to the fire safety plan on a shelf with dust on it? Or is it something that we’re living and breathing each and every day? Is it on our Web site? If they can’t provide one for you, tell your leadership we need to make one and we need to do it now.

Sandie [00:22:14] That urgency is what we need in our communities too because our kids are our future.

Diana [00:22:22] They’re not just our future, Sandie, I believe they are our now, they’re our present. And that present is a gift entrusted to us and we must do something about it because it’s happening to them right now. Eight hundred million kids are at risk every single day because they’re online. That’s a lot of children. And if you think about the relationship you have with one child and what you would do to protect that one child, you know you’re going to teach them not to touch the stove because you don’t want them to burn their hand. You’re going to teach them to look both ways before they cross the street, so they don’t get hit by a car. Well, aren’t you going to tell them how to protect themselves every time they go online and talk to somebody?

Sandie [00:23:00] Absolutely. And that’s one of the reasons why I loved the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children where Ernie Allen has made tremendous progress in protecting children. And they launched NetSmartz.org, and the last S is actually a Z. So, it’s a NetSmartz.org. And there is an abundance of Internet safety curriculum for every age level. We see parents putting screens in front of children at a really young age. Last night I was giving a lecture and one of the mothers said that her younger son started using her older son’s x box to play a game and then she heard her little boy talking to somebody and ask him “Who are you talking to?”, “My friend”. Because these are open access games, and suddenly there’s a stranger right in your living room. And mom took the headphones away, she was aware of what was happening, and this was not another little boy, this was a man talking to her little boy.

Diana [00:24:12] Of course and it happens all the time. The gaming devices are really an open entry point to connect with children.

Sandie [00:24:22] We’re going to put the link to the resource you just mentioned too, Darkness to Light?

Diana [00:24:29] Yes, Darkness to Light, d2l.org. And they’ve been doing incredible work for so many years. I also, you know if you see something, you know you have to say something, that’s what we say on the New York City subway. Yeah, there’s always a sign, “if you see something say something.” So, if you see something and it’s Online, report it. And if you don’t get an answer that you think is appropriate for you know whatever the social media site is, go to the Cyber Tip line from NCMEC. Let them know, let them advocate to have something removed. It’s so important that we are vigilant. Yeah, don’t just let something pass by. I saw something recently online a friend of mine had posted a video of their child, and it was so inappropriate, and I reported it immediately. And then I called my friend and I said this is why this is wrong. This is why you can’t post videos like that of your child. And they were like, “you know what I never thought about it.”

Sandie [00:25:20] So, you directly confronted a friend?

Diana [00:25:24] Absolutely. I’m everybody’s worst nightmare.

Sandie [00:25:28] I love it. So, building that kind of passion and knowledge in our communities is what is going to keep our kids safe. And the overlap to human trafficking with online access from strangers reaches into every socioeconomic strata of our communities. And there are stories of little girls who want to be models and met a so-called agent in a chat room and end up being sexually exploited in commercial sexual exploitation of children. Access to our kids on the internet doesn’t allow us to put up a fence around our house anymore because the cloud is everywhere.

Diana [00:26:17] It’s everywhere, it’s in everybody’s hand.

Sandie [00:26:21] Yes, we don’t have to live in fear, but we do have to be responsible to build that security in our communities, it’s an invisible network of safety.

Diana [00:26:33] And it’s really means about being proactive, not reactive. We need to get ahead of this because we’re never going to legislate our way out of this problem. Technology moves too fast; the legislation moves too slow.

Sandie [00:26:42] So, tell me, we’ve got just a few minutes left tell me what proactive look like for parents who have never heard a message on this in their community.

Diana [00:25:49] They need to get educated, first and foremost, educate educate. Insist on bringing in speakers , insist on really gleaning as much information as you can from within community. There are so many resources online, there are so many resources in your community whether you’re talking to the local human trafficking networks, or if you’re talking to NCMAC, if you’re talking to your state task forces, you’re talking to your local police. They all have people working on these issues. So, educate educate educate, learn the facts, educate your community, learn how to identify and to respond and prevent, host awareness events in your community, distribute materials, and dedicate even a religious service. Even if it’s you know once a quarter, if it’s once a month, if it’s once a year then you know what this is something important that we’re going to figure out how to take collective action on it.

Sandie [00:27:35] So, I’m imagining that people listening to this podcast are going to call their clergy and say, “Why doesn’t our church, why doesn’t our mosque, why doesn’t our synagogue have anything like this?” And we actually have a feedback email on our podcast that I rarely mention. But you can go online and add feedback. So, if you are listening to this and as a result of this podcast you reach out to your community and ask them to host something, will you please let us know because I want to do the math. If we get 100 adults, that’s 10000 children. Am I right? Did I do the math right?

Diana [00:28:19] I like your math better than mine.

Sandie [00:28:24] Oh OK.

Diana [00:28:25] We’re going to go for that, I like that one. But if we gets one 100 adults, we got a thousand kids safer. So, it’s always upwards of 10 kids per adult. But I like your math better, so we’re going to stick with that.

Sandie [00:28:35] And I’m thinking if I get 100 adults to get 100 churches and clergy, then that’s going to be multiplying even faster. So, we want our kids to be safe. And we have to be proactive, that’s the message that I’m hearing here and there are resources to help us do that. But it’s our job to actually act.

Diana [00:29:02] Absolutely. And the last piece I want to add to that is if we’re look, we’re talking about education, we’re talking about advocacy, and we’re talking about reporting. But we also have to remember that we’re not the experts, we have to refer. We have the local service providers in our neighborhoods. We have to really make sure that we’re not trying to be vigilantes and trying to address the issues that we’re trying to connect to the experts in the field. So, I know everybody has the best of intentions, but we want to make sure we keep kids safe. So, we want to make sure that whatever we’re doing, we’re doing it in collaboration by building that network, that partnership. And I think that’s so important because we’re not in this by ourselves, we don’t have to figure it out all alone and the experts are here. You know all of you at the Global Center, you guys are experts, you provide an enormous amount of resource for community. Your local police, your state, don’t do this by yourself, look for the partners. You know we always say with little kids to look for the helpers. You know those are the people who are safe in the community. And I think that was Mr. Rogers. So, I really think it’s important for us to remember to partner partner partner partner partner.

Sandie [00:30:15] I love collaboration. That’s my favorite word. Diana, I can’t wait to have you back on the podcast. There are so many other topics I had on my list today, but this was fabulous, and I’ll get back to you and figure out the math as a result of this podcast. I promise you that.

Diana [00:30:32] Oh, I want to hear those numbers!

Sandie [00:30:36] Yes, thank you so much for joining us today.

Diana [00:30:40] Thank you for having me.

Sandra Morgan 30:43 So, what a great conversation. If you want to go deeper on this topic, have another listen to #315: Keeping Our Children Safe Online, with Susan Kennedy, which we aired a couple of months ago. And now, I invite you to head over to the endinghumantrafficking.org website. That’s where you can find resources we’ve mentioned in this conversation and so much more. If you haven’t visited our website before, a great first step is to become a subscriber, and you’ll receive an email with the show notes with every new episode. And of course, I’ll be back in two weeks for our next conversation.

View Details

Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast intern, Nadia Sosa, as the two discuss Dr. Sandie Morgan’s new award.

Dr. Sandie MorganDr. Sandie Morgan is recognized globally for her expertise on combating human trafficking and working to end violence against women. She is the director of the Global Center for Women and Justice at Vanguard University in Southern California.

She is passionate about the role of education in fighting human trafficking. She launched a 12-unit Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate that is totally online.

She believes everyone can do something. But first, they need to study the issue. Then they can be a voice and make a difference.

Key Points* As an educator, it’s important to ask questions and incorporate student voices in important conversation to better equip them to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference. * A global context, the intersection of different dimensions across society, is essential when addressing issues in education. * When a community is safer for women and girls, the rest of that community is safer and bettered. * It is Dr. Morgan’s goal as an educator, that students learn principles of human dignity, to grow communities where exploitation and human trafficking cannot exist. * The theme of women supporting women is important for the next generation of girls, as the nominees, finalists, and awardees of this year’s Orange County Inspirational Women awards aim to build a future that will support and inspire the next generation of women.

Resources* 2024 Orange County Inspirational Women: Forum & Leadership Awards * Sweat and Toil * Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice

TranscriptNadia Sosa 0:14
Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is Episode #318. I’m Nadia Sosa. I’m the podcast intern and I major in English with an emphasis in Creative Writing, and a minor in Journalism.

Sandra Morgan 0:28
My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan and I’m the director of Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice. And it’s so exciting to have my intern being the interviewer today so thank you, Nadia.

Nadia Sosa 0:46
Thank you, Dr. Morgan. Today, we’re going to be talking about Dr. Morgan’s new award, the 2024 Orange County Inspirational Women Forum and Leadership Awards for Education and Government. So to start off, Dr. Morgan, I just wanted to ask you, what has been your reaction to winning this award and how do you think that it’s recently affected the way that you interact in the sphere of education?

Sandra Morgan 1:12
First of all, I was delighted that there was a category for Women of Inspiration in Education and Government. I sometimes feel like I’m so behind the scenes and my job, my passion, I feel compelled, is to equip the next generation in combating human trafficking and reducing violence against women. So I was delighted to hear that this was a focus. The day of the lunch I showed up, because I always show up to be a voice and to represent what we do at the Global Center, and to represent the issues that women and girls face. So when they actually called my name, I was stunned. I stopped and then I went into, “Oh, I need to go up there and say something to represent the women and the girls that I work on behalf of.”

Nadia Sosa 2:25
That’s wonderful to hear that they’re always on the forefront of your mind and that’s who you’re always keeping in mind and taking into consideration even when you’ve won such a big award. That’s wonderful to hear, especially as a student knowing that someone who has educated me really cares about what you’re doing. And then just piggybacking off of that, how do you think that being an educator helped you with your work in other spheres, like your work in the anti-human trafficking movement and in faith based organizations?

Sandra Morgan 2:54
I believe that being an educator gives me two advantages. First of all, it’s my job to ask questions. It’s my job to research and to look for, not just data, but what does that data represent? How can I make an impact to change trends that marginalize women, change trends of violence against girls and women? And so that job of research equips me to ask questions, and when you ask questions, people are very willing to give you their opinions. They may not always be right, but they will give you their opinions and you can begin to put together a better understanding in the context of the community and the culture. Then my second reason is because when students are part of the conversation and they learn to practice curiosity, and not jump to conclusions, not read the latest meme on Instagram and go from there, but really to study the issues, it’s what we talk about in this podcast. Study the issues so that you can be a voice and make a difference.

Nadia Sosa 4:26
Do you think that all of the different realms of your career intersect at all? And if so, how has that helped you to be a better educator and a better role model, spokesperson in the movement, as well as in the classroom and in the church?

Sandra Morgan 4:43
I think part of my gift to my students is my experience and you don’t get the kind of experience I have without having, let’s say passed a lot of birthdays. So I’ve been a nurse, I ran an operating room, I was a pediatric night charge nurse, so I have those experiences. I’ve literally been an editor for a Greek language magazine, I’ve had the opportunity to work in the public sector as a task force administrator, all of this before becoming the director of the Global Center for Women and Justice. When addressing issues around education, in the context of a center like this where our more formal mission is, “Research, Education, Advocacy, and Collaboration to Build Hope,” to do that requires a context that is more global. And by global I don’t mean the whole world, I mean global in the intersection in different dimensions across our society. With the experiences working in healthcare, then I have the opportunity to draw from that expertise, experience, and my network of other health care providers. Having worked in the faith community, that spirituality is an aspect in aftercare for victims over and over, I see that, and I’m able to bring that as well. And then, of course, I love teaching, it’s been my passion my whole life, and asking student questions, and helping guide them along their journey of discovery. I don’t really like multiple choice tests. I don’t like just verbatim answers. I want to give you a case study, I want to give you a scenario, and I want you to figure it out. Because honestly, you and your generation, Nadia, you’re the ones who are going to take us across the line to end human trafficking.

Nadia Sosa 7:22
That’s great, and it’s great to have seen that in the classroom from you. It’s great to have been in the classroom and instead of being given a multiple choice test, I was given these very important questions that prompted me to think about how I play a role in this world and how I play a role in the movement, and it’s just great to have seen that. And I know you were talking about how you started off as a nurse and that’s kind of how you were introduced to the whole world of human trafficking and ending it, but at what point did you realize that you were being called to be an educator? At what point did you know that that was your passion, that’s what you really wanted to do, among all the other things that you do and all the other things that you have succeeded in, when did you know that you wanted to be an educator and it was your life’s calling?

Sandra Morgan 8:07
Oh my goodness, no one’s ever asked me that before. If you talked to my family, they would probably say something about how I would set school up at home. That was one of my ideas of playing.

Nadia Sosa 8:27
Instead of playing house, you played school.

Sandra Morgan 8:30
I played school. I was never very good at sports. I have issues with one of my eyes, that means I don’t have depth perception. So nobody ever picked me first for softball team because I can’t catch the ball. I studied piano because my mom wanted me to be a pianist, and my hands never got big enough to do an octave. Then my piano career ended at level five at the College of Music in London, I studied under a British piano teacher. So I often felt like I wasn’t very good at anything. But when I became an operating room nurse, I had an experience that changed my life. I was scrubbed in on a case where it was esophageal cancer. The patient was 43 years old, he had three children, and I was with one of my favorite doctor/surgeon teams. And we’re having a great time, we get the report back from lab that the margins are clear, and then we start to sew him back up. The anesthesiologist says “stop” because we put these great big retractors in. They actually look like the end of a hoe, and you have two of them. So we had to take them out and pause while he got the patient back into normal sinus rhythm. And then we put them back in and pulled it so he could sew, and “stop, stop.” Well, three times of this, the surgeon stopped, and he literally reached over on the surgical tray and he picked up my gloved hand, and he goes, “I think this will be just right.” He sent me around to the other side and you know, I have small hands and you know, I’m vertically challenged. They brought my stool around and then the surgeon took my hand, slipped it down into the wound, and put this man’s heart in my hand. Hearing it go “kerplump, kerplump, kerplump,” as he pushed it off to the side and began to sew the esophagus back together. And when we were done, he pulled my hand back and the man’s heart never had a problem fluttering. We finished the case, I can never remember being so in awe of how the human body is created. But what I understood that day, holding a person’s heart in my hand, is that I was not a good fit for softball, or piano, or a lot of other things, but I was exactly what was needed right then. And I think that we often focus so much on achievement when all we need to be is ready to fill our purpose right where we are, and right now, my purpose is to pass on to you and other students, the things I’ve learned about being proactive in preventing violence, being part of a community that creates safety for our children, and also in advancing the status of women globally so that they are empowered to take care of themselves and not become dependent on other countries coming to their rescue. We can do that. And every single person, every student I have, I see as being just the right hand to hold the piece of the puzzle that God gives them.

Nadia Sosa 12:47
That is such a beautiful way to look at things, to grow and see that you are the right fit for the perfect thing that God made you for. And you were talking about how you felt like you weren’t good enough for so long, and like you weren’t the first pick for so many things that you thought you had to do, things that were being imposed on you. I feel like that is such a universal experience as girls, as young girls, we feel like we are just not good enough. We’re never going to fit in the way that we’re supposed to, we’re never going to look the right way, we’re never going to say the right thing. You were talking about your mom and I wanted to know, how do you think that the presence of women in your life, and not just your mother, but everyone in the community that surrounds you, specifically women, how do you think that helped you find your purpose, helped you figure out that you were perfectly made for the work that you do, that you were perfectly made in the image of God? How do you think that the presence of women in your life helped you figure that out?

Sandra Morgan 13:48
Oh my goodness. People ask, “Have you ever had a mentor?,” in small groups and things like that, and sometimes people will be, “Well, maybe one.” It’s like, my life is full of mentors. My second grade teacher, Mrs. Loomis, she changed my life because, I know you’re not going to believe this Nadia, but I have terrible penmanship, and it has never been good. And in second grade, at open house, my mother said, “Oh, my goodness, look at your penmanship,” and Mrs. Loomis said, “Oh, don’t worry. She has so much to write that her brain processes faster than her hand.” She just made me feel like I was just right. That kind of mentorship that recognizes and values who you are, where you are right now, has been part of my journey and I look to other women for that kind of affirmation. When I came to Vanguard University The founders of this Center, Dr. Elizabeth Leonard and Dr. Sherry Benvenuti, they were both my mentors in different spaces, and they saw something in me. They didn’t just say, “Oh, you’re just doing so great,” that’s kind of like a cheerleader and they leave after the game is over. They said, “You do this,” and they cited what it was, “really well.” They asked me questions, and they empowered me to be the one to go find the answer and bring it back to them. It wasn’t a question that they knew the answer to and they were just checking to see if I could find the answer, they valued what I brought back, and I want my students to do research with me. We’re teaching the Women and Justice research class this semester. I love that class because when you do Women and Justice research, the whole community is better. Because when it’s better and safer for women and girls, it’s better for men and boys as well.

Nadia Sosa 16:11
So you talked about all the women that have helped shape you, your second grade teacher. What do you think is the importance of seeing women in the education field, in the world of academia? How do you think that that impacts our generation and young girls, to know that we can one day be someone like you, someone who is influential and wins these awards, someone who, at the bottom line, over everything, even after winning the awards and succeeding in so many spheres, still keeps true to yourself and true to what you believe is good and the fight that you’re fighting? How do you think that that impacts girls, to see women like you being our educators?

Sandra Morgan 16:59
We have so much research that shows that if you see another woman doing something as a girl growing up, you can envision being that same person. When girls grow up, never seen girls, women, doing those things like being an astronaut, or a physicist, or a construction worker, then it’s less likely they’re going to think they can do it. I think modeling that has become a force multiplier of creating opportunity for young women as they enter their careers, their family development, all of those things, but they need to see someone else has been there, and there has to be a pioneer. And it’s always interesting for me because each generation that comes to sit in my freshman class has ideas about how we got to where we are here, in Southern California. I like to ask if women have always had the vote and people go, “Oh, yeah, sure!,” and we didn’t get the vote until 1920. We couldn’t take out a credit card until 1974.

Nadia Sosa 18:26
Today is the 50 year anniversary of being able to have a credit card without a man’s signature, your husband’s signature on it.

Sandra Morgan 18:35
Yeah, your husband or your father, which is, oh my goodness, so limiting, right? So all of these things are not to be taken for granted, and going back to the Global Center for Women and Justice from a geographical perspective, we have an opportunity to use our influence to inspire women in other places. I think one of the things that I pointed out at the event is how much I really like the title of this award, “Women of Inspiration,” because it has the sense of breathing life into those around you. It reminded me of going camping with my dad. My dad influenced my life a lot and camping with him, he would often say how you have to learn to go gently and to start a fire, you couldn’t be in a hurry. You couldn’t blow on it hard, you had to blow very gently. And that sense of starting a fire by gently blowing until it catches flame, that’s what I look for every semester in the students sitting in the chairs in my classroom. I don’t want to bowl them over with facts, I don’t want to force them to a conclusion I’ve drawn, I want to inspire them and ignite their own passion and commitment to making a difference.

Nadia Sosa 20:29
I love that analogy so much. I can remember being a freshman sitting in the classroom where you were teaching, and just knowing that I was being poured into. I was scooped up by you and everyone here, the community here at the Global Center, and you guys tied in all the skills that I have, all of the passions that I have, for this perfect role that I play, that I feel like I’m perfect for, and I feel like I love my internship. You guys just scooped me up and fostered all these skills that I already had so that I could help the Global Center, even if behind the scenes, but at the end of the day, know that I was making a difference somehow, that somewhere, somebody was listening to these episodes. Even though I just typed up the transcript, and I just hyperlinked the resources, somebody could click on that and have help, somebody could read what I typed up, who maybe couldn’t hear it, and understand how important the movement is. So it’s just great to hear that, and along those same lines, how do you as an educator hope to inspire students? How do you hope that you have inspired students?

Sandra Morgan 21:40
I think I want to be a catalyst to make them uncomfortable. I want young men to be uncomfortable enough that they will look a little further to the impact of some of the things they may take for granted. I want young women to feel uncomfortable with the status quo. Yes, things are much better than they were 50 years ago, when you had to have your husband or your father signed for you to get a credit card, but they’re not all there yet. And when women are not represented at the table, then we’re missing half of the whole. It takes men and women doing this together and I think there’s lots of research that shows when women are at the table, that treaties are more durable, that city councils make more decisions that support family. And when the families are supported, the community is stronger. There’s also a thing in finance that’s called ‘The Girl Effect.’ And when you educate girls, you get a slightly higher return on investment. That’s not to put the boys down, but boys often have more freedom to leave the community and go off on adventures, seeking their next big thing where girls are often expected to stay close to home. That’s beginning to change a little bit, so it’ll be interesting, by the time you’re a professor, Nadia, you may be researching ‘The Boy Effect,’ we’ll see. Things are not static and I want my students to learn principles of human dignity, and how we as a community can protect each other and grow communities where violence isn’t tolerated, where exploitation and human trafficking cannot exist.

Nadia Sosa 24:01
I love that you touched on that. Because even though here we’ve grown so much, and we’ve seen so much change within our community and society here, you’re looking past that, we’re all looking past that, at not just ourselves. We’re not just focusing on ourselves, but around the globe. How all women are affected, how all people are affected by these systems that are in place. And even then, there is still so much to do even here, in our own houses, in our own communities, there’s so much to do, so much growth left. But we don’t just look at ourselves. We’re looking, at the bigger picture and I think that’s really important.

Sandra Morgan 24:40
So one of the things that people say to me, like every year we do the Fairtrade Fashion Show, and we always promote using the Sweat and Toil app to check to see if children or adults are being enslaved, are being labor trafficked so we can have things like cheap chocolate. But people will say to me, “Well, how many chocolate bars do you eat? How much of a difference will that make?” And I understand that, but there are two other aspects. It’s not just the amount of chocolate, does it change the justice scales, it’s more about a way that we see each other around the world, as human beings. I want your generation, I want the kids in middle school and the kids in primary grades, to develop an empathy that understands that their choices at the grocery store in very affluent Southern California, impact children on the West Coast of Africa. If we don’t have that kind of empathy, then our world will not change, because we’ll all be just taking care of our own little backyard.

Nadia Sosa 26:08
Yeah, and I think that so many people, they use their head instead of their heart, and that’s always important as well, but it starts in the heart. It always starts in our heart. We have to feel that empathy and we have to feel in our hearts, humans, other people just like me somewhere, are being affected by this choice that I’m making, and then in turn, use their head, to make a different choice, to change their choices, to change the way that they think. But it always starts in our hearts, and it’s that little seed that’s planted in there of empathy that can grow and it will spread to our minds, and our choices will then be better. And we’ll make different choices, better choices that help all of us. This award, it’s about women supporting women, and I just wanted to ask you, what does that mean to you? What does women supporting women mean to you in terms of your career, the trafficking movement, and your everyday life, what does that mean to you?

Sandra Morgan 27:03
It’s one of the reasons I really loved receiving this award, because it was led by women, the panels were women, some of them my good friends and peers. Having them cheering me on, a friend nominated me and screamed louder than anybody else when my name was called, and I just have so much gratitude for having women in a community that actually support each other, we are doing this together. Afterwards, some of the other nominees, finalists, awardees, came to shake my hand to congratulate me, to find out how we can network and be together, and how can we support the next generation of girls going into technology, or business, all these different areas. Everyone there was about building a future that will support women inspiring the next generation of women.

Nadia Sosa 28:16
Well, congratulations, Dr. Morgan. As someone who came into Vanguard as a girl, and I feel like now maybe I’m a woman, maybe I’m still a girl. I think we’re always girls. But as someone who experienced your teaching firsthand, I just want to say congratulations, you deserve it and you’ve inspired so many people, and you’ve impacted so many people, and you’ve always stayed humble and kind. You always keep the mission on the forefront of your mind and I think that that’s so important as an educator. So I just want to personally thank you and congratulate you. Thank you for having me on the show and letting me interview you and bringing me forward from out of my little curtain behind the scenes. It’s been so great and so fun to ask you these questions, and get a little inside scoop.

Sandra Morgan 29:02
Oh my goodness, what a delight for me and an unusual experience to be interviewed by you. I do want to say thank you and make a shout out to the LA Times Orange County team that brought this award to Vanguard and the Global Center for Women and Justice, and me as the leader. I just think it is a way to amplify our footprint, our message, our voice, as we grow our efforts to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference where we are and beyond.

Nadia Sosa 29:42
Thank you so much for tuning in today. If you have enjoyed this interview, go over to endinghumantrafficking.org where you can find a library of past episodes, resources, and get more connected in our community.

Sandra Morgan 29:54
And if you’re not already a subscriber, subscribe to get the bi-weekly newsletter that lets you know a new episode has dropped and there are resources on the website. So Nadia, I guess I’ll see you back in the editing room and for everybody else, tune in again in two weeks.

View Details

Dr. Sandie Morgan looks back at episode #110, with founding co-host Dave Stachowiak, as the two discuss the importance of making just choices with our purchasing power.

Key Points* It’s important to understand that as consumers, we all have a purchasing power that we can use, and it all begins with awareness and consideration of what’s good for those who were behind the production of a product. * The Bureau of International Labor Affairs provides a list of goods produced by child labor or forced labor and can be found below. * The Bureau of International Labor Affairs takes a research based approach to creating this list, using information that is available to the public and can be replicated. * Being aware of the good that are produced by child labor or forced labor is a start to individual and collective action. It is an opportunity to become educated in order to change the quality of life for a child, an adult, a human being.

Resources* California Supply Chain Transparency Act * U.S. Department of Labor * Office of Child Labor, Forced labor, and Human trafficking * Bureau of International Labor Affairs * List of Goods Produced by Child or Forced Labor * Reducing Child Labor and Forced Labor: A Toolkit for Responsible Businesses * Chocolate ScoreCard * Department of Labor Comply Chain

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:14
You are listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode number 317. We’re here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today, we are bringing back my founding co-host, Dave Stachowiak as we revisit a previous episode. You’re going to be listening to Episode #110: “Just Choices: Is it Too Complicated?”. I was reminded of this episode as I saw all of the chocolate in the stores as we celebrated Easter. This episode opens the door for more reflection on our personal ethics in our fight to make a difference in ending human trafficking. With the passage of time, I’ve come to value a personal ethic that builds empathy and bleeds into other spheres in our lives where we have influence: your business, your office, your place of worship. Take a listen to this conversation between Dave and me.

Dave 1:50
Sandie today, we are looking at a topic that is one that actually pretty much all of us are dealing with, whether we understand that or not, are aware of that or not. That is some of the choices we make in sourcing supplies and working with forming partnerships with organizations that supply things to our organization, and to businesses, and to nonprofits and thinking through that, or not, as the case may be. We’ve got a lot of tools and resources to look at today, in order to help us all to be more effective.

Sandra Morgan 2:28
I tell you, Dave, I’ve had so many conversations of late, where it’s part of who I am. We’re having a conversation and I hear people say, “Well, that’s too complicated.” Because I explained, during Ensure Justice preparation, the idea was to order a little cotton tote bag, and someone had found a really good deal, and I said, “Well did you check the supply chain? Because here in California, we have the Supply Chain Transparency Act.” The person looked at me and said, “That’s kind of complicated, I don’t have time to do that.” I said, “Well, it’s out of my department, I’m going to do it.” This is something I really want listeners to pay attention to. If the people in your company, in your organization, in your church, if you’re a pastor, you’re the CEO, and the buck stops here. If decisions are made, to not follow through on something that looks a little complicated, ultimately, that’s going to be my responsibility. So I stayed a little later, I went online, I checked out the website, and according to the law, they needed to have certain information. When that information was not transparent enough, I made phone calls. We did not give out tote bags that year, because I couldn’t find one that I felt was done ethically and I knew for sure there was no child or forced labor in it. So I’m very committed to this and I wanted us to look at the tools that are available to us whether you’re in California or anywhere. The US Department of Labor in 2005 was mandated to develop the Office of Child Labor, forced labor, and human trafficking. As a result of that, the Bureau of International Labor Affairs, the ILab is conducting research on child labor and forced labor in order to produce a bi annual report. We’re going to talk about how that report helps us do our homework. It is a little bit complicated, but it’s not nearly as complicated as if we didn’t have these tools and resources.

Dave 5:04
I think you’ve mentioned something Sandie, here that all of us bears responsibility for. When I think just to my own experience here, is that there are times that I have gone online to purchase something or been influenced in making a decision to purchase something from an organization, and I have thought through this. Like, “Okay, where’s this coming from? What’s the supply chain and done some research on that?” I will say more often than not, I’ve gone on, especially if I’m looking for something that could be purchased potentially different places or more of a commodity item, I am as guilty as anyone of going on and finding the lowest price and like, “Oh, this organization has it cheap and we can get it even cheaper here, and not really thinking of the implications of that.” I think it’s sometimes easy. This is one of those things where, what do they call it in psychology? Diffusion of responsibility, it’s very easy to just kind of mentally offload the responsibility somewhere else. It’s like, “Oh, well, it’s already for sale here. It’s cheap. And this is a great dea,” and yet, we all bear the responsibility for if we only look at price, if we only look at getting the cheapest product. Then we’re part of that process. We are part of, potentially, a supply chain that is not really doing the things that would be in alignment with the values and with looking at what are things that might be risk for trafficking, or forced labor and the things that we’ve talked about on the show a lot. So I think one thing that we can all take away, whether you go and use this tool immediately, or looking these resources or not, is just I think a starting point for all of us is when we’re trying to purchase something, or we’re looking into where we’re going to spend our money, is just stop and think for a minute. Am I only making this decision on price? Or would I be willing to take a few extra minutes to look at what the supply chain looks like? And we’re going to give you a bunch of tools in this episode to do that. But I think just changing that mental attitude, and I’m saying this as much to myself, Sandie, as much as anyone else, when we’re going online searching for something, or looking for something for organization, just to take a moment to stop and think, “Okay, what else can I ask in addition to price? Not that we’re going to ignore that, but what else can I ask in addition to that, so I’ve got more data points to make a good decision that supports the things we’re talking about.

Sandra Morgan 7:32
And anytime you’re you’re involved in a conversation, where ethics is the bottom line, it is messy, because we don’t live in a perfect world, and it is very difficult to be completely sure that any particular product is 100%, slave free. But that doesn’t excuse us from making the effort and making choices that will be more justice oriented choices for the people whose labor has gone into that. And we could get diverted from the toolkit, just talking about the ethics of making choices that are based on what’s good for me without any consideration of what’s good for someone else.

Dave 8:18
Yeah, no, exactly. It’s tough. So awareness is one big area. Just one example, and I may have mentioned this on the show before, we’re recording this in October, so Halloween is coming up. I remember a couple of years ago, we had talked so many times in the show about Fairtrade chocolate, and I was thinking about, “Oh, it’d be great if we could hand out Fairtrade chocolate to kids on Halloween.” And I went online and did some research, and I think I figured out it was going to cost like $300-400 with the amount of kids that come to our house, and I was just like, no. We’ll figure out something else. But that’s just an example. Just because you go into the read doesn’t necessarily mean that you spend the money or that’s always the right choice, but thinking about it, being conscious of that decision that you’re making, versus just blindly doing the price shopping.

Sandra Morgan 9:11
And that’s a great segue back to the ILab efforts with the report that they produce bi-annually, called the “List of Goods Produced by Child Labor or Forced Labor.” One of their key objectives is awareness, public awareness. And we’re going to talk just for a second about how they produce this report, because it is a research based report. They don’t use secret information that only these special people have because there’s lots of challenges. What they have done is they’ve used publicly available primary and secondary sources. Now in a research based approach, you want to be able to replicate the research. So that means other people have to have access to the same information that you did. And it gathers the information using qualitative and quantitative data, and then the list of goods is made available to the public. The list of goods are from countries that ILab has reason to believe, are produced by forced labor or child labor, in violation of international standards. So the standards are not just what we’re looking at here in California or in the United States, but these are international standards.

This is almost a, this is not the best term, but a clearinghouse of information. They’ve assembled the information that’s out there, we could go find it on our own, but they’ve put it all in one place, and provides an easy way for us to access and to get that information quickly.

And, for instance, in the most recent report from December 2014, there are 136 goods from 74 countries on the list. And if you wanted to have a lot of detail, there is a link to the procedural guidelines. If you look at the report, there will be a bibliography for the products and how it was arrived at that it was put on the report. So it’s a very carefully produced report.

Dave 11:31
Perfect.

Sandra Morgan 11:31
Now they also, in December 2012, created a Reducing Child Labor and Forced Labor: A Toolkit for Responsible Businesses. I’m pretty excited about this, because businesses say to me often, “Wow, you’re in a an academic institution, reading all of this and learning about this as part of your job. I have to actually produce a report that shows a profit, and I have to conduct business, it’s commercial, it’s for profit. So how do I do this?” Well, this toolkit is available, it’s online for companies who want to develop, and this is a quote from their document, “robust social compliance systems in their global supply chain.” So Dave, take a look at that and tell me what you see when you open that up.

Dave 12:30
I believe I’m on the correct page here. So we’re at the Department of Labor (dol.gov), and I’m on the ILab site for Reducing Child Labor and Forced Labor. There is a graphic on the front, with the eight steps of ‘select a step for the process.’ If you click on any of these, it kind of goes through the process of explaining these. What I’m not sure Sandie, looking at this, is how you pull up that report or what pieces are here. Let me see, learning objectives, key terms. It just kind of guides you through, it looks like the process for how you would go about this on each of the steps.

Sandra Morgan 13:14
Now, in California, because we have the Supply Chain Transparency Act, there are a set of of legislated guidelines for reporting social compliance of supply chain and sourcing. So this toolkit is aimed at people who are not necessarily required to do this, but there is a sense, and I was in a meeting recently where a marketing expert was speaking to leaders about the idea of cause-based marketing. So there is a sense that today’s consumer, and especially with the rising influence of millennials, are much more interested in social responsibility and their purchases. So how would a company begin to align themselves with that expectation? This toolkit provides some of those resources. So for instance, the…

Dave 14:18
Now that I looked through here, it’s actually way easier.

Sandra Morgan 14:21
It is pretty easy?

Dave 14:22
It is. So if you start out here, on the page, and we’ll put a link to the page in the notes, there’s a graphic with the eight different steps. You click on the first step and then you just click ‘continue’ at the bottom of each page. And it walks you through exactly what the process is to do this, of how to engage stakeholders, of how to assess where your organization is, of how to develop a code of conduct, how to communicate effectively. I mean it looks very much in alignment with some of the organizational change models that I’ve seen, Sandie. So I think that it’s a great starting point on thinking through this as an organization, if this is important to you, or if you are partnered with an organization that you’re working on starting to think about these things. What a great place to start.

Sandra Morgan 15:12
Well, as soon as I opened it, I thought, this is giving me some benchmarks, vocabulary for having this conversation with people in other departments that I partner with in my environment, but even more importantly, I do so much community education and awareness, and there are people who listen and look at me and say, “Wow, I wish I could do something but this is way beyond me. It’s too complicated.” Here’s a step by step toolkit that makes it clear there is a place to begin.

Dave 15:49
Indeed.

Sandra Morgan 15:50
And we can all do something. I think I’ve heard that somewhere before.

Dave 15:55
I have heard that somewhere before, too. Yes.

Sandra Morgan 15:57
So the list of countries and goods that is produced every two years, added two items to their list, this last report. They added alcoholic beverages and they added meat. And for me, it’s like, I hadn’t really thought through how they decide what to study. And as I did that, and looked at one of the early lists that I had downloaded, and then at the latest list, there are 353 items on the December list. That’s a lot of items.

Dave 16:36
And these are items, again, that the Department of Labor is identified, as they’re reasonably sure, based on the information and the research and the observations, that there’s a correlation there with forced labor or trafficking.

Sandra Morgan 16:53
Absolutely. And one of the things when I listen to people, and when people ask me questions, standing in the lobby of a hotel, I write it down, and it keeps me awake at night sometimes, because I want to find an answer. To have someone say, “Well, it’s too complicated,” that happened in a lobby, in a hotel in Nebraska, last week. It just made me want to go and figure out how to make it more streamlined.

Dave 17:20
Yes.

Sandra Morgan 17:20
I can’t tell you what to do if you’re online shopping, and you’re looking at a particular product, but I can tell you go to this report, and you have 353 items that our Department of Labor has done research on that can be replicated, that are most likely being imported and stocked on the shelves of our stores. So then, I can reasonably assume that there is going to be some information on those products. So I don’t have 1000 products, but I have 353. And so I can be responsible with what I do have.

Dave 18:01
And how specific does this get, Sandie? Would it make sense to pull up the list and just to look? I mean, does it get specific to like a brand or particular item? Could you give us an example?

Sandra Morgan 18:10
Actually, it does not list brands. For me, that is a really important aspect. I do think that people who get involved in just researching one brand, end up getting themselves into some serious quagmires. I’ve had students, you mentioned Fairtrade chocolate, and Fairtrade is a certified trademark, there are other trademarks as well. It isn’t like a generic term, a more generic term is ‘slave free.’ When they looked at a particular product, and they said, “Well, this company has made this product,” and then they paint the entire company as all bad, there were other projects that were socially responsible by the same company, and they actually produced one of their chocolate bars that was entirely Fairtrade and had the certification. So it gets very messy. Leave out brand names. A lot of companies are doing work. They’re going to this website to have more social compliance, and if they’re doing business in California, they’re being held to a higher accountability, but it is not good practice to list the actual brand names.

Dave 19:30
Got it. And that goes right to our philosophy. We’ve talked about on the show many times, that business and organizations are partners in this effort, not adversaries by any means.

Sandra Morgan 19:40
Absolutely.

Dave 19:41
All of us, many of us work in businesses and organizations that produce products. So how can we partner with those businesses and organizations to do that more effectively? Like you said, we could cite so many examples of organizations that are doing that fabulously in some areas and maybe not as well in other areas, just like people. Right?

Sandra Morgan 20:03
Right.

Dave 20:03
Some things we’re doing well as people and at any given time or situation, other areas we’re falling short on. How do we partner to help everyone to be more effective?

Sandra Morgan 20:12
We’re trying to do better. Being perfect is kind of an illusion, but we are trying to do better.

Dave 20:18
Well, let me ask a follow up on that. Because I am still curious, though, as far as just the practical use of this list. So when you say something like alcohol, that’s, that’s too broad. If I’m going to the store and thinking like, “Okay, what would I purchase and not purchase?” How specific does it get as far as the direction that it provides to me as a consumer? What would be the kind of alcohol or meat that I’d want to watch for to maybe make different decisions?

Sandra Morgan 20:42
It would probably, and I haven’t looked at the alcohol list, but for instance, blueberries. If the report indicated that blueberries from Southern Argentina are often harvested by children who are not getting an education, and who are not being compensated appropriately. Then if the store I’m in has a little label and says, “Wow, you get to have these off season blueberries at this great price,” I’m going to think about that and do a little homework before I decide that I want to have blueberries off season.

Dave 21:21
Got it. That’s a great example because they always say on the package, at least, where it’s from. That’s interesting. Okay, so for fruits and vegetables, that’s the kind of thing you’d look for. Are there other things that you know of, off the top your head that you’ve looked at?

Sandra Morgan 21:21
I’ve at chocolate, I’ve looked at cotton. If a t-shirt says that it was made in a particular country, I can go back and look and see where that cotton came from. And in fact, the little episode I talked about with buying cotton tote bags really cheap, the company when I called them said, “We have a zero tolerance policy for child labor.” I was like, “Well, so do I. But show me how you implement that. How do you enforce it?” And ultimately, after a couple of emails, a letter, and two phone calls, they finally said, “We don’t actually know where the cotton to make them comes from,” and they wouldn’t tell us. I’m sure they didn’t want us to know, but I know that if the cotton comes from Uzbekistan, that there are kids on cotton plantations who don’t get to go to school because that’s what they are doing instead.

Dave 22:31
So looking at the source, and when we say source, like literally the source, where the ountries are, where certain products are coming from. That list would help with perspective on that, as far as if I’m looking at two different shirts in a store, and I look at the country of origin and the materials, I might make a different choice based on that information. It’d be really interesting to grab that list and download it on your mobile device, and next time you’re in the store and you’re looking for a particular kind of thing, you’d just pull up, see if anything’s on the list as far as direction.

Sandra Morgan 23:06
Oh yeah.

Dave 23:07
It almost reminds me Sandie, of those really neat cards that they have where when you go out to a restaurant, on seafood, they have that watch list of, “Yes, okay to eat.”

Sandra Morgan 23:17
Yes.

Dave 23:18
Have you seen that red light, yellow light, green light?

Sandra Morgan 23:21
Exactly.

Dave 23:21
Eat occasionally, don’t ever order this fish at a restaurant because they’ve been over fished and supplies are down. It sounds a little bit like that, you’d just have some sort of reference that will be helpful to you in the moment of thinking, maybe here’s some information I can use.

Sandra Morgan 23:38
There are some apps that are being developed. Free to Work is one of them. We can do some research and maybe post some of those on there. You mentioned seafood, there is a lot of research now on forced labor and slavery in the shrimp industry in Thailand and Southern Asia, to the point where it would be difficult for me to go and order scampi right now, because I just read that report. So, our choices end up when we’re out celebrating at a nice restaurant, doesn’t it?

Dave 23:38
Yeah, well, I know it affected my choices. When I saw some of those fish lists, years ago, when they first started to come out. I was like, “Oh, wow, I’ve ordered that a bunch of times at restaurants,” and I never knew that there was an overfishing problem, or an over supply issue with this particular fish, and so I stopped ordering that fish. I don’t remember which one it was, but I know I changed my behavior. It goes back to what you said earlier in the episode Sandie, of just awareness. Awareness goes a long way. If you know that there’s an issue with something, I can make a different choice now, and if enough people make that choice, then that affects what is purchased, and what’s supplied, and the choices that are made economically, and that’s huge.

Sandra Morgan 24:59
It happens for all of us. Let me give you a couple more little highlights from this report from Department of Labor. I want you to think about the definition for child labor, the international standard, because often people say, “Well, you know, it’s not like kids in America, kids in other countries are used to working.” But it’s not 18. The International Standard is work performed by a person below the age of 15, and it includes any kind of practice that is a form of slavery, the sale or trafficking of children, debt bondage, serfdom, forced or compulsory labor, and it includes forced or compulsory recruitment of children for use in armed conflict. So, the definitions are international definitions, and they have five principles for evaluating the information. That kind of procedural guide, for some people, is really important detail information. Just quickly, it’s the nature of the information, the date of the information, they don’t use anything older than five years, they try to keep it very current, the source, whether the information indicates significant incidents of child labor or forced labor, and then the extent of corroboration from various sources. Corroboration is key. They try to limit single source references on their report, they want corroboration. So that’s really important. And their process is related to their goal, they want a transparent process using publicly available primary and secondary sources, so that this is something that is available for all of us, it isn’t something hidden. When I look at their uses for the list, that idea of raising public awareness about forced labor, and child labor, that is the real goal. This list isn’t included or intended to be a punishment, but it’s a starting point for individual and collective action. That’s why we wanted to spend some time here on this podcast, because we can take action as an individual, but we can also take action collectively, whether in our business communities, or beyond, in our advocacy work. Becoming educated on this and understanding how to use the list will be a significant stepping stone, something solid. It’s not people just making generalized statements, but you can pull this up and say, “Yes, cotton in Uzbekistan is a problem.” And if we address this, that means that we have to also go over there and see how are we going to get those kids into a place where they go to school? So it isn’t just about not buying a t-shirt, it’s about changing the quality of life for a child, an adult, for another human being. Our just choices.

Dave 28:22
Exactly. And the thing that really strikes me of what you just said is that this has been done well, and the research has been done well, there’s good processes, procedures, standards put in place to make sure it’s reported accurately. And I just pulled up on the website, neat info graphics, just a one page overview of the entire list, and it’s really neat. Sandie, I know this would be really easy to have when you’re shopping or just to look at when you’re looking for something, just a quick reference guide. It’s really helpful from that standpoint.

Sandra Morgan 28:55
Wow, there was a lot of food for thought there. We have more tools now and we’ll add a few to our show notes, like the Chocolate ScoreCard, and the Department of Labor Comply app. Now, I’m inviting you to take the next step if you’re a new listener. Go over to endinghumantrafficking.org. You can find the resources that I’ve mentioned in this conversation, and so much more. You can check out the anti-human trafficking certificate program here at Vanguard University, and if you haven’t visited the site before, it’s a great first step to become a subscriber. You’ll receive an email with the show notes when a new episode drops. And of course, I’ll be back in two weeks for our next conversation.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Kirsten Foot as the two discuss the role that government agencies play in equipping and influencing others against trafficking.

Kirsten FootKirsten Foot, PhD, is the CEO and Executive Director of Businesses Ending Slavery and Trafficking (BEST) which educates employers to prevent  human trafficking, and provides pathways to safe employment for trafficking survivors. BEST offers employers consulting on anti-trafficking strategy development and implementation, video-based and in-person training services, and advisement on communicating about human trafficking with employees, customers, vendors and the public. Kirsten Foot was also a guest on Episode #111 and Episode #310 of the Ending Human Trafficking podcast.

Key Points* To prevent human trafficking, the act and crime must be made more costly to traffickers, more expensive financially, and have higher risks and consequences so that they can no longer benefit from it. * BEST aims to drive trafficking out of businesses and the same strategy can be applied in the public sector to help public sector employers drive traffickers off of public property, agencies, and infrastructures. Government agencies have the power to do all of these things, and in turn, make trafficking harder and hurtful to traffickers rather than easy and beneficial. * It is important that businesses cross-train their employees and equip them to observe and report labor trafficking. * It’s important for management of a government agency to be trained as well, in order to support their front-line employees and provide a clear protocol for when a potential case of trafficking is identified. * Government agencies have the power to influence not only residents of the county they’re based in, but many other types of organizations by encouraging businesses that they work with, providing awareness-raising materials, and encouraging leaders to learn and contribute.

Resources* EHT #111 * EHT #310 * NCMEC * Ports of Freedom * Not Alone Campaign * Be the One Campaign * BEST * Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:14
You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice. This is episode #316: Government Agencies as Equippers and Influencers Against Trafficking, My name is Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Kirsten Foot is back today to discuss how government agencies leverage tools and strategies developed by Businesses Ending Slavery and Trafficking, the organization she leads to counter human trafficking. Kirsten has a Ph. D. She’s CEO and Executive Director of BEST, Businesses Ending Slavery and Trafficking, and she leads their initiatives to educate employers to prevent human trafficking, and provide pathways to safe employment for trafficking survivors. BEST offers employer consulting on anti-trafficking strategy development and implementation, video based and in-person training, services, and advisement on communicating about human trafficking with employees, customers, vendors and the public. Kirsten has been a guest on episode #111, and episode #310. Kirsten welcome back.

Kirsten Foot 2:01
Thank you, Sandie, it is always good to talk with you. I learn things in our conversations too, I’m just excited to have this chance.

Sandra Morgan 2:09
So I’ve been trying to reconsider the approach that I take to educating my community, and from the beginning of the podcast, a lot of my goals were designed around providing resources. But as I kind of lean into this new season, I want to understand better the “why”, and my students can look up the “what”, they Google it before I can get it out in my classroom, but the “why”, that is the message. So I want to start today with the “why” for BEST, particularly in the context of serving government agencies.

Kirsten Foot 3:03
Well, glad to have the chance to speak to that. It’s a big question, but it’s actually relatively simple. Because if we grasp the fact that human trafficking is ultimately a crime of greed, it’s human rights violation, it’s exploitation in so many ways, but the “why” of human trafficking: Why do people traffic other people? it’s greed. Because they profit from it. Then that means that our efforts to prevent it need to be dedicated to making the activity of human trafficking much more costly to the traffickers, more expensive financially, more difficult, more risky for them. It’s simply too easy. So prevention needs to be thought about as making it much harder for traffickers, and government agencies have such a strong role to play in that. Often, I think people think, “Well, you know, government agencies and trafficking, it’s law enforcement.” That’s what government does, that’s the main thing government does and law enforcement is absolutely essential in countering human trafficking. And so are our government-provided social services. So much of the support for survivors of human trafficking comes from government sources in the federal acts, and other state resources. It’s never enough, but there is government funding for survivors. But my emphasis in my position within BEST is looking at government agencies as employers, as managers of significant amounts of public property, buildings, parks, facilities, libraries, transit systems, infrastructures that have been built with public dollars and that they steward for the public. They have government agencies at the city, county, state and federal level, have so much opportunity for influence over what happens on their properties, through their workforce, and the ways that they influence all the other entities that work around them and with them. The businesses, the non-government organizations, the community organizations, the schools, there’s so many ways in which government agencies are prime for influence, and for equipping of their own employees, as well as all different aspects of the public that they interact with. So that’s the big picture. Curious what you think there as my attempt to explain the “why”.

Sandra Morgan 5:36
I love that. I love that because when we try to look at the issue around greed, and then we just counter it with prison and things like that, we know that those with greater resources may find ways around those kinds of deterrence, and the the reduction is a minor blip on the screen in their world of millions and billions. So making it a financial deterrent, looking at it from that perspective, is flipping the script for sure. I love that.

Kirsten Foot 6:23
Well, let me add one phrase there, a memorable phrase that BEST uses when talking with private sector employers, so businesses, is that BEST is here to help businesses drive trafficking out of business. So, “driving trafficking out of business,” is one of the phrases that BEST uses. But the same is true for the public sector. What does it mean? How do we get public sector employers to drive traffickers off of public property, out of public agencies, off of public infrastructures? The government agencies have so much possibility, and many of them are doing great things to make it much more costly and risky for traffickers to operate on public land, public property, public infrastructure.

Sandra Morgan 7:12
I just look at the changes we’ve seen in the landscape since the passage of the Uyghur Labor trafficking Prevention Act, where now the onus is on the corporate world to prove their supply chains, so that’s flipping the script. There’s lots of good reasons for us to do this and I’m a huge proponent of public-private partnerships. We’ve seen how that has been so effective for organizations like the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, who were featured during last episode of the podcast. So let’s move to the “how,” and the how is in the title of this episode, we’re talking about equippers and influencers. So tell us how that works.

Kirsten Foot 8:09
Yeah. So as government agency leaders catch the vision for what their realm of influence can be within and through their agency, I see tremendous innovation, and dedication, and really strong leadership, to equip staff within the government agency, to be trained on behavioral indicators of labor trafficking and sex trafficking that they recognize signs when they see it in the context of their agency’s purview. I’ll give you a few examples of that bit, but also to to recognize their role as leaders in our society, to influence the culture, influence the public in its awareness of the various forms that human trafficking takes and the multiple types of coercion, of the dozens of aid of industries in which human trafficking is happening, as well as to influence businesses and others through incentivizing them to do the right thing, to step up and take leadership, to demonstrate as public agencies the leadership that any organization can take, and that every organization should take to lead within their realm. I’ve got lots of examples, but we can start just with airports. Think about airports as public agencies. In many states across the country now, airport leadership has taken the initiative to put signage in public spaces, in restroom stalls and various types of publicly visible places to raise awareness on the issue of human trafficking and to address potential victims that may be in the airport facility under duress, or actually being coerced right then. So that’s just that act of signage in airports, it’s happening in many airports across the country. That’s an example of a government agency, the port that oversees the airport, that entity, taking leadership, taking advantage of the opportunity it has to use its premises as a place to message against human trafficking, and provide resources, hotline numbers, protocols within the airport, to interrupt trafficking as it’s happening. With time, over time, that kind of, we call it “inhospitality,” being inhospitable to trafficking in airports, makes it harder and more risky for traffickers to see an airport as an easy place to be. We want to make it difficult for traffickers to have their victims in airports and think they can be undetected. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg, because the signage is just the beginning. What really matters in airports around the country, just keeping with that example, is when airport leadership train their staff and make training available to all the vendors, all of the shop owners, the businesses that operate within the airport and that service the airport. When all of those people are influenced by the leadership of an airport to also get trained so that their employees know what to look for, and know what to do when they see instances that could be human trafficking, then you’re watching an airport, as a government entity, influence so many private sector organizations that are always there, and on its premises and working together. That’s when you really start to see a multiplier effect, that a government agency can lead. That’s just one example, but it is happening in many airports, it needs to happen in every airport.

Sandra Morgan 11:42
We did a training for our airport and one of the questions that one of the higher level managers asked me is, “Okay, so we are looking for potential victims who are being trafficked through the airport, but you’re describing some behavioral indicators that I think we might be seeing in third party contractors who are here doing cleaning, serving in some of the vendor areas. So how do you see this impacting actually, the employment practices in the airport?”

Kirsten Foot 12:28
In any space, not just airports, but all businesses are vulnerable to contractors with zero integrity and high exploitation, of being taken advantage of. Even a high integrity employer can be taken advantage of by a labor broker that’s bringing in employees through illicit contracts, or no contracts, that are actually being forced to work in that facility. It’s not just airports, not just public entities, that can happen anywhere, and it is happening in so many places. So it is part of what needs to happen. Every public entity has a good reason to want all of its vendors that use its premises to be trained, to recognize indicators of human trafficking, in case their very own shop within a public space is being exploited in that way, where people are being exploited through wrongful contracts, or lack of contracts for work in that area.

Sandra Morgan 13:28
So let’s look at a couple of examples of how this works and what the training entails. So I know that you guys have worked with Washington State Department of Ecology, and can you describe the ports to freedom training?

Kirsten Foot 13:48
Yeah, well, this is actually a really exciting example because among the industries for which BEST has developed industry-specific training, the maritime industry is one of them. So the name of BEST training for any employer in the maritime industry, public or private sector, is Ports of Freedom. It is a specific training, that is specific for the kinds of risks that employers in the maritime trades face, as we know that human trafficking is happening in every aspect of Port based work. It’s shipping cargo, cruise vessels, fishing vessels, there are an increasing number of validated cases of people being trafficked for their labor, exploited without pay, in those aspects of the marine trades. So every port, and every business that works in ports, is vulnerable to being complicit in that and has the opportunity to recognize it when they’re seeing it. What happened just in the last year with Washington State’s Department of Ecology was just a phenomenal example of government agency leadership. A few people in the Department of Ecology, in the area, the division that oversees oil spill prevention efforts, so people who are environmental disaster prevention inspectors, the leaders of that department had access to BEST reports to freedom training. When they saw that training, they realized that over the last few years, their environmental inspectors had been talking about things they’d seen on the ships they boarded, that indicated something very wrong, very amiss in terms of the labor conditions of some of the people on some of those ships, they were there to inspect for oil prevention, but they noticed indicators of labor exploitation, and they didn’t know what to call it, they didn’t have any way to to define it or report it in a clear way, but when the leaders of that division of the Department of Ecology saw BEST ports to freedom training, they recognized that what some of their inspectors had been observing was actually indicators of labor trafficking. So the Washington State Department of Ecology Oil Spill Prevention Division, has partnered with BEST to ensure that all, hundreds, of their oil spill prevention experts get cross training, crossed from their environmental expertise on labor trafficking, on sex trafficking as it can happen as well, but really emphasizing the behavioral indicators of labor exploitation that they may be seeing on the ships they board when they board to look for oil prevention. I find that just a phenomenal vision and creative, strategic thinking on the part of the leaders of that division, of that government agency. When I started here at BEST, I wanted to be sure to meet those people, that pair of people, and ask them who their counterparts are in California, and in Oregon, and in British Columbia, and over on the east coast, and on the Gulf Coast. So gradually here, BEST is working on reaching out to individuals in each of those state agencies and state and provincial agencies as well. Because any agency that has people boarding ships, has the capacity to watch for, observe, and learn how to report safely and effectively, the indicators of labor exploitation, maybe human trafficking, that they see in the ship setting.

Sandra Morgan 17:36
So when I started engaging with business leaders, whether government or private, some of the resistance that I encountered, was the amount of time away from work their employees would have to take, because that’s a financial consideration. So you always want to count the costs. So let’s talk about what the training entails, and then what kind of accommodations you need to make to train your staff that’s on the front line. The guy in the office on the 12th floor probably isn’t going to see this, although it’s possible, it’s more likely that the frontline folks are going to be most able to encounter and report.

Kirsten Foot 18:31
Yes, that’s very true. So the training that BEST provides for people in any industry is always kept to 30 minutes. As you know, single base training, there’s always room for more. Many agencies, government agencies, have asked us to train not just their employees with the 30 minute training, but to do a “train the trainer’s,” to have q&a sessions with their employees that go beyond what’s presented in the introductory training. Because they know that for employees to feel fully equipped, to recognize the indicators to report well, but also to have confidence in their management, that when they report to the management, that the management is going to support them and recognize with them, and help them think through what they saw and what needs to happen, depending on the urgency or emergent nature of the situation. We can say yeah, it’s just 30 minutes for everyone, and that’s true, and that’s good, and in many cases, it’s not sufficient, because leadership needs to be trained as well. At least, there needs to be a response team among management and leadership, to whom if any kind of trafficking potential situation is reported, that there’s a clear protocol within the organization of who else is going to need to know and how that employee will be supported in their reporting. Beyond an emergency call the 911, what else is being reported and what vulnerabilities in that government agencies’, property, or premises, or operations, does that report reveal? That the leadership then need to take action on. So this is why BEST offers strategy consulting for organizations, partnered with a number of different state, county, and local government agencies in Washington and other states, to help leadership develop the strategy that their particular agency needs, and figure out a plan for implementation. Training is a key part of that, but I would say it’s necessary and not sufficient on its own. Because, again, employees need to know that their management is with them, and that there’s a very strong support from leadership in the organization for what will happen when reports are made, or when potential situations that are sometimes hard to parse, when that’s brought to management, how will there be both support for the employee and a clear set of response decisions and communication, to protect that employee, report quickly when it’s necessary, and take stock of what’s happening in the property, or the office, or the operations that this reveals.

Sandra Morgan 21:05
That really resonates so much with what I’ve been learning, Kirsten. I’ve gone in and done training, and two things happen. I go back a year later, and it’s different people. The people that I trained to begin with were passionate, they had wonderful intentions, good intentions, but there’s not much left of the structure that we thought we had put into place by training in areas like identification, safe intervention, and other kinds of protocols. So we began to understand how critical it is, at the beginning stage, to start the process to operationalize those good intentions in written policies that then continue to replicate what you’ve established. So how, and what can you do to assist people in not having to start from the ground up with those kinds of policies?

Kirsten Foot 22:19
Sandie, you just hit the nail on the head. That’s what needs to happen. For strategy development, there are certain things that are going to be based, core elements in any organization, whether it’s a business or a public sector, government agency, premise based or operations based, there’s a set of core things. But beyond that, there are practices that need to be put in place. There’s policies, and there’s practices, and having internal communication that is consistent, meaningful, coherent for employees of you know, “Here’s how we’re talking about that.” This is what human trafficking is, here’s what it’s not. We’re looking for behavioral indicators of force, fraud, or coercion, in any form of work or sex. And if a minor is involved, we’re dealing with an entirely other situation, but there are core elements of that, that are true for every organization, and there are specific decisions to be made by each organization, depending on its particular opportunities and vulnerabilities, given its location, its premises, its operations, and the various types of turnover and leadership that are in place for that organization. So BEST works with organizations to help that strategy development phase that is both, a set of things that BEST recommends as best practices for every employer, and there’s a delineated list of best practices, and they need to be customized for each employer for ultimate impact or optimal impact within that organization.

Sandra Morgan 23:52
Okay, so I like stories, and I was really encouraged by learning about having signs at rest areas in Washington. Tell me when that started and what kind of out put you’ve experienced?

Kirsten Foot 24:16
It actually started many years ago. I want to say back in 2014, even. The Washington State Department of Transportation has been phenomenal in its embracing of its opportunity and responsibility to make use of the state funded rest areas on the major interstates across the state of Washington. As a place where all different kinds of people are making use of facilities, and where there is space for public signage behind Plexiglas as well as inside restroom stalls. From more than a decade ago, various nonprofits have worked with the State of Washington’s Department of Transportation to create a couple of different generations of messaging, poster-type messaging in rest areas. But what is really exciting is that the most recent version of this that has now rolled out, implemented in every rest area in the state of Washington, all of its major highways, is an awareness raising campaign that was designed by a survivor. It’s titled “Not Alone,” “You are not alone,” is the message. There are multi-language posters, one set that is addressed to people who may be experiencing labor trafficking, and another set that are addressed to people who may be experiencing sex trafficking. But the message is, “You are not alone. There’s help available,” it’s in multiple languages, and it is now displayed in every rest area in the state of Washington, thanks to the Washington State Department of Transportation’s leadership and creative thinking, and willingness to cooperate and work really well with other government agencies and with nonprofits, including BEST. BEST led the “Not Alone” campaign with Washington State Department of Transportation, to get those posters in Washington State rest areas. It’s just terrific the way that they’ve engineered it, how to make those posters safe. There’s been a lot of vandalism of anti-trafficking posters in rest areas over the last decade, and now there’s some really good engineering to make sure that signage lasts as long as possible.

Sandra Morgan 26:29
I have to brag a little bit on our home base here in Orange County, our Department of Transportation did “Be the One” campaign with bus wraps and posters in buses. It has been a great example of your lead comments about being influencers. I think that’s not something we’ve talked about from either the public or private sector. Can you give us a little more understanding of ‘influencer’ in this context?

Kirsten Foot 27:09
So in a very concrete way, government agencies by using their property, their premises, whether it’s rest areas, buses, library foyers, the waiting area of every government agency, that’s city, state, county, has space for signage. When they choose to dedicate some of that real estate of messaging space, to anti trafficking messaging, they are influencing the culture. They’re influencing public, they’re raising awareness at a scale that no single employer could do. They’re doing it in a way that’s saying, “We are government, we care, and we think everybody should care. Here’s how we want you to be aware of this and here’s what we want you to do with it.” So that’s just one way but then, at a higher level, as government agencies that interact with businesses, so the Department of Labor and Industry, for example, in Washington State, in many states, has the opportunity to influence, to encourage businesses that it works with by providing access to awareness-raising materials, by encouraging business leaders to learn about this and get on board and be part of a city-wide campaign, or a county level coalition. Those are also ways that I see government agencies influencing many, many other types of organizations.

Sandra Morgan 28:29
Wow, I just looked at the time and Kirsten, we’ve been friends for a long time, so we could keep going. But I know somebody who commutes and listens to this podcast, and they just hate it when we’re not done and they get to their destination. So last question, how do people find these resources?

Kirsten Foot 28:55
BEST’s website is bestalliance.org, and resources on the Not Alone campaign are there to be downloaded, resources about the consulting and training opportunities that best offers are also available through the website, and anyone can contact info@bestalliance.org for any further info. I’d happily talk with anyone from a government agency or anyone else that wants to think together about how employers, either public or private sector, can be better equipped. If your own employer is open to thinking about what its strategy needs to be, how it can communicate better, and what it can do to equip and influence others, please give me a call

Sandra Morgan 29:35
Alright. Thank you so much for coming on today. And thank you for listening today. I’d love to invite some feedback. I know other organizations are doing this in their areas. I’ve seen it in Madrid, Spain. I’ve seen it in Arizona. So I would love to invite you to send us your feedback at feedback@ending human trafficking.org, or come on to our social media and tell us what you guys are doing in this space to equip government agencies, and those who are influencing our movement against trafficking, and changing our culture. I look forward to seeing you again in two weeks and I encourage you to come online and look at the show notes to see the links that Kirsten and I have talked about today. Have a great week.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Susan Kennedy as the two discuss the importance of keeping our children safe online.

Susan KennedySusan Kennedy joined the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children in 2018.  At NCMEC, Susan leads NCMEC’s prevention, outreach, training, and partnership programs. Previously Susan was the Director of Programs at the Center for Alexandria’s Children where she conducted child forensic interviews, coordinated the Child Advocacy Center program, and oversaw a community-based primary prevention program for children aged zero to five and their caregivers. She earned her Bachelors’ degree in Psychology from The College of William & Mary and a Master of Education degree in Human Development and Psychology from Harvard University. 

Key Points* The National Center for Missing and Exploited children is the nation’s largest and most influential child protection program, and creates vital resources for children and those who keep them safe. * In 2023, NCMEC’s Cyber Tip Line received 36.2 million reports of suspected child exploitation. * Reports of online enticements have almost doubled from 2022 to 2023, observing an increase of more than 300% from 2021 to 2023. * An important part of the policy agenda is to equip local, state, and national agencies with equivalent technology that has enabled offenders. * There has been a shift in sextortion where now, offenders target teenage boys and are financially motivated.

Resource* NCMEC * 48 – International Centre for Missing and Exploited Children * NCMEC CyberTipline * NCMEC Impact Page * NetSmartz

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:14

You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode #315: “Keeping Our Children Safe Online” with Susan Kennedy. My name is Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Our guest today is Susan Kennedy. She joins us from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, where she leads their Prevention, Outreach, Training and Partnership programs. Previously, Susan was Director of Programs at the Center for Alexandria’s Children, where she conducted child forensic interviews, coordinated the child advocacy center program, and oversaw a community based, primary prevention program for children aged zero to five and their caregivers. She’s earned her degrees from the College of William and Mary, and from Harvard University, I am so glad to welcome you here, Susan, and there are so many things in your bio that make me want to go back and ask, but we can’t do that, we have a job to do today.

Susan Kennedy 1:39

Yes, thank you so much for having me, and I’m excited to talk about all the things we have to talk about today.

Sandra Morgan 1:44

Well, let’s talk first about NCMEC, National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, and the strengthened value of being a public-private partnership with the FBI.

Susan Kennedy 1:59

Sure, so NCMEC, for those of you who may not be familiar, the National Center for Missing Exploited Children, is the nation’s largest and most influential child protection organization. We really see ourselves as leading the fight to protect children, creating vital resources for them, and for the people who keep them safe. So we’re going to talk about a range of issues today. I think most relevant probably for our conversation, is the work that we do around the cyber tip line. So receiving reports of child sexual exploitation online, as well as providing services for victims, for law enforcement, including the FBI, as you mentioned, around child sex trafficking cases as well. So we are a nonprofit, but we have very strong work and partnerships with law enforcement agencies, like the FBI, but also other federal agencies, and local law enforcement. Really, that’s because what we do is we are receiving information from the public, from law enforcement, from internet platforms, and working with law enforcement. Law enforcement are the ones who are going to investigate those cases, who are going to figure out what happened, who needs help, how they can hold people accountable, and make us all safer. It’s really law enforcement that has to do that work and that does do that work, so we really see ourselves as lending a helping hand to those agencies and providing some resources that might not be possible without that private support as well.

Sandra Morgan 3:16

I remember the first time I had an NCMEC guest on this show, I think it was Ernie Allen, one of the cofounders. Just beginning to understand the significance of the work of finding missing children, and then now bringing decades of that work to the issue of online exploitation, it feels like a really different approach and we need new and different tools. So let’s dive into our theme for this episode and talk about the way to keep our children safe online. I love your background in prevention and forensics with children. I’m pretty interested in the recent congressional hearings, because that tells me that there is a response to the growing public concerns and that we are going to begin to see better policy, stronger policy, I’m not exactly sure what how I want to term that. But can you give us an overview of NCMEC’s view of online safety from a policy perspective?

Susan Kennedy 4:53

Yeah, absolutely. So I would start by saying the National Center, as I mentioned, runs what we call the Cyber Tip Line, which is a program authorized by Congress, that receives reports of child sexual exploitation, again, from the public, from law enforcement, from victims themselves, from these internet safety platforms. Teally what we’ve seen, unfortunately, is a continued increase in reports of that cyber tip line. Last year, in 2023, we received 36.2 million reports of suspected child exploitation.

Sandra Morgan 5:21

Woah!

Susan Kennedy 5:22

Yes, and that has been increasing year over year for a while. It’s a big number, it’s a lot of reports. I think within that, what we have really been highlighting or noticing is a huge increase in the reports of what we call online enticement. So that number has increased, it almost about doubled from 2022 to 2023, and we saw a an increase of more than 300% from 2021 to 2023. Let’s dive into that.

Sandra Morgan 5:50

Okay, lets go back. Tell me, what is online enticement?

Susan Kennedy 5:55

Right, so the definition of online enticement. It’s a pretty broad category of things, anything where an adult is communicating with a child in order to commit a sexual offense, or it could even be an abduction, and a subcategory of that that’s getting a lot of attention, that people may be familiar with, is called sextortion. That’s when there is blackmail, it’s kind of a mix of the word sex and extortion together, and that blackmail is around generally nude or explicit images of the child. So a common scenario is a child provides, sends a nude image of themselves to someone else, and then that person turns around and says, “Unless you pay me money, or unless you make more of this imagery, I’m going to spread this image around to everyone you know.” There’s variations on that, but that is what sextortion is, and that’s inside this category of “online enticement,” and really what we think is driving a lot of the increase. We’ve seen a real spike in those kinds of cases, particularly in 2022, and continuing in 2023.

Sandra Morgan 6:51

So these numbers that you just spouted, that just blew me away, are those online, so we can put them in our show notes?

Susan Kennedy 7:01

Absolutely, we have a couple of blogs that have come out recently tied actually, to the congressional hearings you were referencing before that I’m happy to provide. They’re right on our website. Every year, we do update what we call our Impact Page, which will have all the latest numbers, and we’re in process right now of doing the full revamp of that to show our 2023 numbers. But the blogs have the most recent numbers that I just cited. I can definitely provide you those links for your show notes.

Sandra Morgan 7:26

Thank you. So let’s go back to that congressional hearing. What were your top three takeaways?

Susan Kennedy 7:36

I mean, I think as you said, one takeaway for me is, we did really see a lot of public attention on those. Lots of parents of kids who’ve been harmed, or have even died as a result of some of the harms they’ve experienced on social media, where they are in present, and I think people are starting to really pay attention that issue, which is really important to see, we hope that there’s progress there. I think for us, the overarching thing we want people to know is that our laws around what the tech platforms are obligated to do, how they report, what can be reported, what should be reported, and some of the measures we can have around accountability for those tech platforms, really need to be updated to reflect the explosion in use of social media. Just the changes and how technology has changed vastly, and our laws and policies have not, and that we really want to see some more accountability and some updating to how the Cyber Tip Line works, and how things are reported to us.

Sandra Morgan 8:31

So this takes me back to the very first time Ernie Allen spoke here at Vanguard University, and he talked to us about changing technology. The illustration he used is when our law enforcement was still on horseback, and the thieves got cars, and the law enforcement felt like it’s not fair. I think that part of our policy agenda is to equip our local, and state, and national agencies with equivalent technology. Is that part of the conversation you’re hearing in this space?

Susan Kennedy 9:23

I definitely think that’s true, that the the tools and the policies need to be updated to be able to hold platforms accountable, and again, to increase what they’re voluntarily, or what they are mandated to report to us and things like that. One simple example that would be within these bills, is part of what they are updating is the requirement for tech platforms to hold on to materials that are relevant for investigation. So when a piece of content is reported to the National Center, we pass it on to law enforcement. Right now, the tech platforms are only required to hold on to that information for 90 days. And you can appreciate the process and the legal process they have to, understandably, go through to get into someone’s social media account, and to understand which account we need and what documents we’re talking about. A lot of law enforcement have told us, by the time we’re able to work through that whole process that we need to do, the content is gone, or the information is gone. So one of the bills, and this is just one example, but one of the ways it kind of modernizes the requirements and the processes around that is to require tech companies to hold on to that information for a year. So it’s like an example of a tool that we need to give law enforcement to help kind of level the playing field, as you’re saying with with what the technology has enabled offenders to be able to do.

Sandra Morgan 10:37

Okay, that’s very helpful. Let’s dive in to what you called sextortion. We did an interview with Aaron Burke after the documentary came out, and it was clear that some of our old conceptions around vulnerabilities, and it’s kids who, no one’s home, or they’re already marginalized, those old paradigms are not exactly accurate, because predators have morphed, and they have access in ways that we’re just not ready for. What should we be looking for now.

Susan Kennedy 11:26

I think it’s helpful to know that in 2022, what we saw at the National Center, and in turn, our federal partners, the FBI, Homeland Security, and others really saw a big shift in sextortion. What we saw is a big increase in offenders targeting teenage boys, and targeting them for money. So what we had previously seen, was that the majority of sextortion cases, the victims were female, and the the motivation for that victimization was that the offenders wanted more content. The example I gave before, the child would send one image and the offender would turn around and say, “I want more images like this, I want fully nude images, I want an image every day when you get home from school.” That was the the motivation behind that offense, was it was sexually motivated to get more content of the child. What we saw kind of come out of nowhere and then spike tremendously was sextortion of boys for money. So the victim will oftentimes send an initial image and then the offender turns around and says, “You need to give me $100, $500 in gift cards, or just a payment app, or whatever it is, and if you don’t, I’m going to send this image to everyone you know.” What we also saw was an increase in the sophistication of those kinds of offenses. I would actually characterize a lot of these as social engineering fraud and scams. Just as, I think many of us, in the working world have gotten more sophisticated phishing emails, and things like that, where someone wants to call us right away and give us a gift card, and those overtures, those attacks have become more sophisticated in that they’re including names of people we do work with, and they’re understanding who supervises who, and doing that kind of background research to make these threats seem more realistic. In the same vein, what they’re doing is they are infiltrating these kids’ social networks. So they’ll say “I know this person you’re on the soccer team with,” and then they can show you they’re friends with everyone on your soccer team, everyone who goes to your high school, they know exactly who your girlfriend is, they know who your parents are, and they’re ready to send that image. So it doesn’t seem like an empty threat, it seems like it is ready to happen. They’ll show, “I’m right here in the group chat, ready to hit send with your image, unless you send me this money right now.” And we’ve seen these threats are egregious, they are quick moving, that’s the other big change that people need to really be aware of. We used to see in sextortion cases there was a gradual, as you see in other types of sexual offenses, a gradual building of trust. You might call it grooming, you might call it manipulation over time, these offenses now are quick. The initial contact can be made at six or seven o’clock at night, it can escalate quickly. The FBI has documented more than a dozen kids who have died by suicide associated with these offenses, and sometimes that happens overnight. Initial contact is six, seven o’clock at night, the child has died by suicide by the morning. They’re very fast moving, they’re very egregious, and they target again, primarily boys, and they’re financially motivated. So they’re very different than what we used to see and so for parents, and teachers, and professionals to be aware of that and how that has shifted. I’ll pause there because I know that’s a lot.

Sandra Morgan 14:28

Wow, yeah. We’re going to have to have a glossary for this episode, social engineering. So okay, things have morphed, but how can I better prepare the children and youth in my community to be their own first line of defense? Things are going to change again, and so I can’t just tell them, “Be aware that somebody’s going to do this social engineering tactic,” because they move away and do something different. So what do you suggest?

Susan Kennedy 15:07

I think the first thing is to make sure that the young people in your life know that you are a resource, and you are a source of support, even if they feel like they made a mistake. One of my colleagues said, something I think is very powerful, she said, “These offenders are really weaponizing the shame that these kids feel for having taken this imagery or sent this imagery.” I think many of us as well intending adults, even doing Internet safety prevention, talking with kids about how to be safe online, we have emphasized to them, “don’t ever take these kinds of pictures, don’t trust people you meet online.” All of those messages are well intentioned, but what we have found is that there’s a real backfire effect for kids who have already engaged in that behavior, or kids who engage in that behavior, and then are under threat, and what they remember all of us telling them is, “don’t do this,” and they’ve done it. Now they don’t feel like they can come to us for help. They’re embarrassed, they’re ashamed, they know that they did exactly what we told them not to do, and that has really increased the vulnerability of these kids for those impacts where they continue to kind of deal with these offenders on their own. Paying them doesn’t help, ignoring them doesn’t help, I mean, it really needs an adult and a law enforcement response, to be able to support these kids. And it’s out there, and and not enough kids know. They don’t know that this is a thing, they think, understandably, that they’re the only ones who’ve experienced that. So we need to get the message out to kids that if they ever find themselves in this situation, and I think we should be explicit and clear, especially with our teenage boys, that this is a scam going around. Just the way we might warn our older, elderly parents about phone scams or different types of things like that, I think we should be explicit with them that this is a possibility. I also think we’ve got to start talking with kids about the harm of recirculating non-consensual imagery.

Sandra Morgan 15:13

Yeah, let’s break that down. Non-consensual imagery. Tell us what that is.

Susan Kennedy 17:05

So what I mean is a picture, an explicit, a nude picture. Kids will call them nudes, kids are fine if we still say sexting, that’s not what they say, but that’s okay. So any image of someone where they don’t have their clothes on, and we’re going to focus on minors here. They send a picture, say they send it to a classmate, that classmate sends it to someone else, that classmate sends it to someone else, it circulates online. That is where a lot of the harm of this imagery happens, is because of that circulation, and the harassment and the bullying that happens when an image is circulating out there. That, I would argue also gives ammunition to these people who are sextorting children. Because if the child could say to this offender, “Go ahead, send it to everyone on my soccer team, literally no one will care. Everyone will delete it, no one will say anything to me.” But that’s not the reality, and that’s not what they think will happen. They know that they’re going to be embarrassed, they know that people are going to possibly say mean things about them, repost it, put it publicly, put their name with it online. All of these things that they’re worried will happen, may happen, and that is part of what gives ammunition to these offenders. So that’s where we need to take their power away and tell kids that it’s up to them, the climate, and what happens when this imagery circulates at their school is up to them. It’s not up to me, it’s up to you guys, and how you treat each other when this image is circulating. So we really need to broaden the conversation beyond just, “Don’t send this imagery, don’t talk to strangers.” We need to broaden it to think about how we view each other and how we behave as bystanders and supporters of each other.

Sandra Morgan 18:34

I think the bystander element of this is so important because you can build that sense of a youth community already prepared to protect their group, and if you see this happening to somebody in your group, you know what to do. Because when it’s happening to you, you may not really feel like you have the power but when it’s happening to your friend, you have a sense of coming alongside, and I think that bystander element of this is an important protective tool and quality to help flourish in our kids’ groups, our teens, our youth groups, so that they become their own first line of defense. I have so many more questions and we’ve only got like 10 minutes left, but we probably will have to have another conversation. When we’re looking at prevention strategies from a community based approach for all of our children. Every time I talk to parents with kids that are on computers for homework or just because they get this amount of screen time every day, I feel pretty confident that these parents are doing a good job of what you’ve just described. But then, I end up in some other areas where I’m with kids, and there is no consistent caregiver, the child may already be system involved because of a lack of appropriate family support and even neglect. So how can a community based approach help us keep our kids safe?

Susan Kennedy 20:40

I think that’s such an important point, and one of, I think, the most challenging aspects of Internet safety is just what you said. The parents who show up to the Internet safety presentation, who are going to the National Center, and looking at NetSmartz, those parents have a lot of advantages and are engaged, and those kids have that going for them. Those are, in some ways, the easiest parents and kids to reach with this messaging, and I think what you’re highlighting is such a huge challenge. The first thing I would say is, that’s one reason why this policy stuff is really important. Making the platform safer, holding these platforms accountable for the ways that they can increase child safety that benefits all kids, and so there’s lots of analogies about rivers and oceans, and making the river smoother, versus teaching kids how to swim and all that. So if we can make the river smoother, if we can make the internet safer, that’s obviously going to be an effective way, or more effective way to help all kids, just make those waters easier to navigate. I think beyond that, one of the things the National Center tries to do is we try to not only talk to parents directly, but we also want to partner with schools. We also partner, you said in your intro, I used to be a forensic interviewer, I used to work at a Children’s Advocacy Center. CAC’s employ mental health therapists and victim advocates who are working with kids who have experienced child sexual abuse, working with them to understand some ways you can use part of our Internet safety program called NetSmartz to have one on one conversations with those kids about Internet safety moving forward. Here’s how you can talk to them about the ways in which you can be a support. We’re always trying to get our resources into the therapist’s office, the advocates’ offices, get them to Child Protective Services, talk to folks who work in residential treatment, and group homes. We work with after school programs, just trying to really reinforce and get that message to all adults who have contact with kids, not only focusing on parents, but trying to get to all those systems where kids might be able to reach out for help, might voice a concern, might go for guidance. I think that’s another really important approach, is we can’t just focus on talking to kids and families directly, we’ve got to get to all these settings and all these professionals who have opportunities, not only to intervene, but to speak about prevention with the children that they interact with.

Sandra Morgan 20:41

You’ve mentioned NetSmartz, I’ve mentioned it, we will put a link to NetSmartz, age appropriate prevention curriculum online, one of the best out there and it’s free. Okay, definitions are so important, and we need to use the real words with kids. I see a lot about CSAM and SGCSAM, what are people talking about when they’re using those acronyms?

Susan Kennedy 22:04

Okay, so CSAM (CSAM), stands for Child Sexual Abuse Material. This is the terminology that we prefer to use for what we used to call child pornography. In fact, another one of the provisions in that legislation, that group of bills before Congress right now, changes that terminology officially in federal legislation. Right now, the Criminal Code, and most places where it’s referred to in the federal government policy and laws, it’s called child pornography. But we believe that that term is not accurate for this imagery, because it is not legal to have sex with a child. This is the sexual assault and abuse of a child and there’s nothing consensual about their participation in this imagery. It’s important for people to understand when we say child pornography, when we say Child Sexual Abuse Material, the vast majority of it is the hands on, sexual abuse of the child that is filmed and put on the internet. That’s what we’re primarily talking about, and that’s really important because I think sometimes people think of child pornography, “Oh, a lot of it is probably innocuous bathing suit pictures, or kids coming out of the bathtub, or self generated content maybe, “just kids”, teenage girls in their bras,” and certainly there’s a wide range of imagery, and all of that, everything I’ve described could be exploitative and could fall under this legal definition. It’s just important for listeners to know that the vast majority of what we’re talking about is someone sexually abusing a child, and filming or taking pictures of that abuse. It’s hands on sexual abuse that is then filmed and put on the internet. So we feel like CSAM or Child Sexual Abuse Material, is a much more clear and accurate term for those images and videos. Now, when you see SGCSAM, that SG stands for Self Generated. There are other terms for that, some people might call it youth-produced explicit content. What that is referring to is when the child who is depicted in the imagery is the one who took the picture or created the video. Again, as I said, it could be a child taking an image of themselves partially clothed, unclothed, and sending that. Sometimes that could be in the context of a romantic relationship, but as we’ve already talked about, sometimes kids are under threat, forced intimidation and fear, and they’re taking that imagery and sending it to someone who is forcing them to do that. And it’s important for providers, as well as parents, to understand that you’re not going to know the full context of a picture when you first discover it. So you could think this image was created, and this child is willingly doing it, and being irresponsible, and sending it to someone. It could also be true that they are being threatened to take that image, and the person threatening them to take that image is asking them to smile or pose. We see that often. You see it also in child sex trafficking cases, where a child is instructed to pose in a certain way or do certain things on camera, it is impossible to tell from the image the full context under which it was created. That’s important for people to know, but that’s the difference. Child Sexual Abuse Materials is the broad category of what we used to call child pornography, and when you see the SG in front of it, it means that in some way it was generated by the child in the image.

Sandra Morgan 24:19

So when those images are out there, what can someone do?

Susan Kennedy 26:55

Great question. So the most important thing we want people to know, and we want to ask people to do, is anytime you see suspected child exploitation online, we want you to report it to the CyberTipline. I can also send you a link, but it’s easy to find: cybertipline.org, it’ll come right up. We have a brand new public reporting form where we’ve actually invested a lot to make that an easier report to make, more user friendly, more clear about how to report. That will trigger what we call a cyber tip, which will let our analysts look at it. Also, it’s important for people to know that by definition, that process involves law enforcement, because our job is to get that information back out to law enforcement so that they can investigate it. What it also allows us to do is once the national center looks at it and says, “This is CSAM, this is an explicit image of a child,” we get law enforcement to verify that is in fact a child. So even if the child in the image may look like they are 19, or 18, they are really 16, or 15, or 14. Those two pieces together, the National Center is identifying this as child sexual abuse material, and law enforcement is verifying that this is in fact a child, makes that image legally, child pornography or Child Sexual Abuse Material, and platforms must remove it when they are notified that it’s on their platforms. That’s actually the only level of mandatory reporting that exists across all platforms, is that once it is known Child Sexual Abuse material, you have to remove it, and the National Center actually has staff whose job is to notify these platforms, and monitor over time, and make sure that that content comes down. The identifying information from that picture is added to what we call a hash list. That list is shared with many platforms. Anytime a picture on that hash list appears on their platform, they have to take it down. So that is your most powerful tool to get content removed and prevent re circularization. That’s making a report to the CyberTipline. We know that that law enforcement involvement can be a barrier for people and we very much understand that. I mean, I can say a lot of the times law enforcement, the only thing that’s going to happen is they’re going to put that on the removal list. But there could be circumstances around your case, and the person and people involved in it, and offenders who may be involved in other cases, and it may result in law enforcement involvement in that report that you made. We can’t say for sure, law enforcement needs to hold people accountable and investigate things that we bring to their attention. We have other resources. You mentioned, Take It Down. Take It Down is a really specific resource for a child who has a self generated image of themselves, they want to report it, but they want to stay anonymous. So what they can do, they have an image on their phone because they sent it to someone and now that relationship has gone south. It’s important to note that sextortion still happens in that context, peer to peer, where you’re in a relationship one minute, the relationship goes south, and now that person doesn’t want you to break up with them or is controlling you in some way. This can be a form of domestic violence, where they’re going to control you because they have this image of you, and if you want to make a report to Take It Down, what we do is just pull that hash value that I mentioned, just that hash value, we don’t see the image, we don’t know who you are, but that we can share that hash value with platforms who are participating voluntarily, and they will look for that image should it appear on their platform. That’s a very powerful tool but it’s not as potent of a content removal tool. But it is important, and for people who aren’t ready to make that CyberTip Report, we definitely want them to report to Take It Down so that we can help look for that image. There’s also tools on our platform where you can self report to the platforms, and we go through every few months and make sure that those instructions are up to date, in terms of reporting to popular platforms out there about your self generated content as well. So there are different tools to really empower victims to pick which one works for them the best, but the important takeaway for professionals, for parents, for kids, is that we used to say, “Once it’s out there, it’s always out there,” that’s not true. There’s a lot we can do with technology to get your image down, and so it’s really important that you reach out and get support and help in whatever way you’re comfortable, so that we can get that imagery down and stop it from circulating.

Sandra Morgan 28:50

I am so encouraged by that. Our time is up, but I’m going give you one more statement. What gives you hope, Susan?

Susan Kennedy 31:06

I think working at the National Center and seeing the incredible work and resiliency of the people who look at this imagery and try to help kids, and even adults who have imagery circulating, and coming up with these new innovative tools, that makes me feel really optimistic, as well as just talking to young people. I think they are taking control of this new technology and really speaking up and advocating, and most of them, when you read the research, are making really good decisions online. I think we have a great opportunity to come alongside them and empower them to be safe, and take care of each other out there.

Sandra Morgan 31:39

Talking to you gives me hope. Thank you, Susan. Thank you for tuning in and listening today. I’m going to see you all again in two weeks. In the meantime, go to the show notes to find the links that Susan and I have talked about and if you haven’t been to the ending human trafficking website, go on over to endinghumantrafficking.org where you can find a library of past episodes and resources and get connected with our community. And Susan, will you tell us the website for NCMEC?

Susan Kennedy 32:18

Sure. It’s missingkids.org and the NetSmartz is missingkids.org/netsmartz.

Sandra Morgan 32:26

And spell NetSmartz.

Susan Kennedy 32:28

N-E-T-S-M-A-R-T-Z. NetSmartz with a Z.

Sandra Morgan 32:33

Okay, yes, gotta spell it with a Z. It has been a delight. Thank you so much, Susan.

Susan Kennedy 32:40

Thank you very much.

View Details

Dr. Sandra Morgan is joined by her friend and colleague, Kimberly Casey. The two discuss the National Human Trafficking Prevention Framework and the ways in which human trafficking is not simply a crime, but a human rights and public health issue.

Kimberly CaseyKimberly is Communications and Prevention Specialist at the Office on Trafficking in Persons, Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families. Kimberly is a graduate of George Mason University with a Master of Public Policy, culture, society and development. She is a self proclaimed learner and a strong proponent of connecting proven public health strategies with the vision of what we believe is possible to advance efforts to prevent human trafficking and other forms of violence.

Key Points* Human trafficking is not just a crime, but a human rights and public health issue, meaning it is also preventable. * To effectively prevent human trafficking, real systemic change is needed as well as a system response, like this prevention framework. * The National Human Trafficking Prevention Framework takes into account factors that make individuals or communities more vulnerable to violence, and assess the ways that buffers can be created to prevent violence from being experienced by an individual or community. * Collective action is important for the prevention framework, making shared definitions essential, ensuring all those involved in the framework are working to move in the same direction and have common goals.

Resources* Office on Trafficking in Persons, Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families * George Mason University * National Human Trafficking Prevention Framework * CDC Terms for Strategy and Approach

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:00

It’s time to register for the annual Ensure Justice Conference at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice. The conference is always the first Friday and Saturday of March. That way you can make it a recurring event in your calendar. 2024, it’s March 1st and 2nd, we’re just a couple of months away. Our theme is “Keeping Our Children Safe Online.” We will explore the issues, what is happening online? What are the risks for our children at this stage of their development? What can we do as parents, caregivers, teachers, community members? Our speakers include many of our podcasts expert guests, and we are partnering with our Orange County Department of Education. Check out our website for more info and don’t miss the early bird rates. Go on over to gcwj.org/ensure justice, right now. There is a virtual option for our global listeners, as well as special rates for college students. Join us to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference at Ensure Justice, March 1st and 2nd, 2024.

Kimberly Casey 2:05
Thank you, Sandie. I’m very excited to be here. We’ve talked about this for a while now, so looking forward to the conversation.

Sandra Morgan 2:12
Well, you and I have been having this prevention conversation for a really long time, and sometimes it feels like we’re trying to find a magic formula, or even something just super simple, like teaching toddlers to brush their teeth, that becomes a lifelong habit that prevents dental decay. The more I look at prevention, the more I realize it cannot be a one off presentation. Awareness is maybe the beginning, but it certainly does not encompass prevention. When I learned from you that the National Human Trafficking Prevention Framework was being developed and will be released, I wanted to have a conversation. So can you tell us just a little bit about your expectations for the framework?

Kimberly Casey 3:16
Absolutely. So we know that in addition to being a crime, in addition to being a human rights issue, human trafficking is really a public health issue. And like any public health issue, it’s preventable, right? But we need to have a whole system response put in place to be able to effectively prevent human trafficking because like you said, Sandie, human trafficking isn’t something that can be prevented with a one off presentation. It is something that will require real systemic change, and that is something that we have seen through the prevention of other types of forms of violence, other types of health issues. Through this prevention framework, what we’re really hoping to be able to do is bridge the connections between what we’ve learned to be effective and other forms of violence prevention or health promotion activities, to the human trafficking issue, so that we can advance from that knowledge base that already exists. So we’re fortunate that we don’t have to start from the very beginning. We can build off of what it is that other experts in communities have learned and advance our efforts from there. Through that, what we’re really hoping with this framework is that everyone will see their place in this particular activity. Sometimes human trafficking revention can feel very overwhelming. Sometimes people may not understand what role they have to play if they’re working on housing or health care or financial security. We want to make sure that we’re showing people really the depth of opportunity to become engaged in this work, and to be able to move forward together through collective action.

Sandra Morgan 5:24
I love the term collective action and when we close this session out, we’re going to come back to that. But let’s start with imagining ourselves on a journey where we’re all going to the same destination, prevention of human trafficking. Whether we’re talking about child sex trafficking, adult commercial sexual exploitation, or labor trafficking, our destination is prevention and to get there, we have some guiding principles in the framework. So before you even get in your vehicle to leave, these are the things you need to know. Can you walk us through how you designed the principles for this framework?

Kimberly Casey 6:13
Absolutely. So as we were building the framework, in general, we went to the existing evidence base. We went to the experts who have been working on prevention activities related to domestic violence or child abuse, talking about substance use prevention, various forms of violence and various different health activities, and ask them, “What were some of those core components that you really feel are translatable to any type of prevention work that we may want to achieve as a collective?” Then we also spent a lot of time talking to people with lived experience in human trafficking. So people who have experienced labor trafficking, people who have experienced sex trafficking, and we asked them, “What do you feel like need to be these foundational components before we really start diving into strategies and approaches what carries over everything that you might want to be doing?”. They came back with several really key components. One is equity and inclusivity. So recognizing that the people who experience human trafficking come from various races, ethnicities, nationalities, religions, sexes, gender identities, orientations, disabilities, and ages, right, we were looking at a full spectrum of humanity, as we’re looking to address human trafficking. It’s so important that we don’t assume a one size fits all approach, that if we set a table, everyone will be able to come to that table, unless we’re really intentionally thinking about ‘what are the components that will bring people into those discussions? What are barriers to people coming into those conversations?’ Right? So we might think everyone has the ability to show up at that meeting that we may be hosting, but without really thinking about ‘how do they get there? What’s the transportation like?’ to kind of use a general example. We’re really trying to think through what do we need to put in place to make sure everyone has access to the work that we’re doing and that everything is culturally, linguistically appropriate for the communities that we’re working to serve, and really personalizes the approach based on the communities that we’re trying to reach. We know certain communities are at much higher risk for trafficking, looking at indigenous communities, people of color, to LGBTQIA communities, people with varying disabilities, youth who are system involved, foreign nationals, when we’re talking about reaching that breadth of a group, we really do need to be as intentional as possible in our efforts to do that work.

Sandra Morgan 9:19
And one of the things that is always a bit challenging in this and we’re looking at this from a US based perspective, but we have listeners and 148 countries, and sometimes there is a tendency for us to assume that if we have survivor voices here, then this is going to be a great program. But I probably need to find out from survivors in another place, what their experience is because it may not all be transferable. What happens in California may not happen in Arkansas, or Mexico, or Argentina. So in a public health model, we have to be really aware of who our community is composed of. That probably was not grammatically correct but you get what I mean.

Kimberly Casey 10:20
Absolutely, really understanding who it is you’re trying to reach, what are the daily experiences that they have? If you’re doing awareness activity, what is their level of literacy, right? Sometimes we think about just needing to translate materials into a person’s first language. But one of the things that we also know is just because it’s that person’s first language doesn’t mean they actually have the ability to read and write. Or, there are some languages that actually do not rely often on the written word and so we need to think about what is the verbal kind of representation of that look like? Really just making sure you understand your community, you understand those barriers, and truly the best way to do that is to make sure you’re in active conversation with people with lived experience, people who have come from those communities, who can tell you what the needs of those communities are, and the best way to reach them. I think one of the things that we often see too, is people will speak to one person with lived experience as they’re engaging on a project, but not thinking about how that one person can’t represent the voice of all survivors, and all different types of experiences. And so really finding opportunities to engage a diverse group of people with lived experience in that conversation as well and to make sure that you’re starting that discussion very early in the process, not bringing people in to kind of rubber stamp the work that you’ve already done. But oftentimes, when we’re doing this work, we’re talking to them before we actually put pen to paper to a concept, right, making sure that they’re engaged from the very beginning, so that we can make sure that what we ultimately create will be effective for those communities we’re trying to reach.

Sandra Morgan 12:14
Absolutely. Okay, so you ended up with the framework with eight strategies? First of all, how did you get it down to eight strategies?

Kimberly Casey 12:29
That was not easy. We really did try to go, like I said, back to the literature, back to what has really been proven to be effective, in various other forms of violence prevention or health promotion activities. We relied a lot on our colleagues at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, particularly the Division of Violence Prevention, who has done a lot of research and have published a lot of work around how we can effectively impact various forms of violence. They’ve also done some work around, they call it connecting the dots. Recognizing that different forms of violence are often interconnected and they also often have very similar risk and protective factors. There’s things that make people more vulnerable to violence, and there’s things that help to create buffers, or to help prevent violence from being experienced by an individual or community. We tried to take all of those lessons learned, and bring it into this particular framework, through our strategies and our approaches. There is so much else that we could have included, but we did try to make sure that we were staying within that really strong evidence base. Then we also went to the experts with lived experience to other groups that have been studying trafficking for quite some time to pull in those connections to anti trafficking work specifically to make sure we were filling in any gaps of things that might be unique to the anti trafficking space. It was a multi year process, honestly, of going through the literature refining, talking to experts, having peer reviews by people with lived experience to really refine that down. What I think we have landed with through the strategies and approaches that we do have, is there’s so much work that can happen within each of those because they are somewhat broader categories. I really do think, as I mentioned earlier, we are trying to create this framework in which everyone will see their place, I think through these strategies and approaches. Everyone who we know need to be involved in this ecosystem of prevention, really do have a space or a place within these strategies and approaches.

Sandra Morgan 15:08
One of the things that really stood out to me as I was reading this document, which we’ll put a link in the show notes, so people can download it. It’s big, it’s like around 70 some pages, but it’s really laid out well so that you can lay out your strategy, your organization goals, and compare, contrast, find out where you fit, it is connecting the dots. But it starts off with the CDC terms for strategy, and for approach and defined strateg as: “lays out the direction or actions to achieve the goal of preventing violence.” And the approach is: “to provide specific ways to advance the strategy through programs, policies, and practices.” We have another three P’s folks, Programs, Policies, and Practices. I think having practices here really activates this vision for these strategies. So let’s do like, less than a minute for each strategy Kimberly. I want to just engage people, and if you’re listening to this, and this is something that you hear, we need people in a collaborative formula, not to do, everybody does everything, but each one does what they’re good at and then together, we make progress. So what is the first strategy?

Kimberly Casey 16:51
So our first strategy is strengthening skills to promote self efficacy and prevent human trafficking. Here, what we’re really talking about is reaching the individual who may be at risk to human trafficking, and making sure that they have the information and tools to be able to identify and respond if they become vulnerable to trafficking, or if someone is trying to recruit or perhaps take advantage of them.

Sandra Morgan 17:22
That self efficacy, the fact that I can actually do something for myself, really is empowering. When I talk, especially to youth, they don’t want me to help. How many times, if you’re a parent, have you tried to help your youth and they’re like, “No, I want to do it myself.” I think that starts like at about two years old. So this strategy really leans in to this natural desire to be able to do things on our own. Let’s take a look at number two.

Kimberly Casey 17:45
So two is identifying and supporting people at risk or who have experienced trafficking, to increase safety and reduce harm. So here, again, really looking at those individual risk factors of someone who may be at high risk. Maybe they’re experiencing homelessness, or they are migrating and don’t have access to the resources that they need, or they’ve experienced human trafficking. We want to make sure that we’re intervening so that they don’t experience trafficking again in the future. Really, within this framework, we’re looking at preventing trafficking from happening ever, intervening as soon as we can, and then preventing re-trafficking later in life as well.

Sandra Morgan 18:47
Well, the thing I notice about the strategies as you take us into number three, is that they build on each other. They’re connected.

Kimberly Casey 18:57
Absolutely, yes. So we really kind of started with this individual aspect, looking at how we can target building resiliency within the individual, and then move through what we refer to as the social ecological model, which then addresses relationship, community, and society. With our third strategy, we’re looking at strengthening economic supports. We know that often people who experience trafficking are vulnerable because they don’t have access to the resources that we all need for living a safe and healthy life. They may be in a position where they have to take increased risks that some of us who have more financial stability wouldn’t even have to consider. We really want to make sure that we’re safeguarding that economic peace so that they don’t end up in situations where they have to engage in riskier decision making.

Sandra Morgan 19:58
I think when we look at that in the context of family environments, I know family because strategy number four is about promoting family environments that support healthy development. And if both of your parents are working two jobs and you come home to an empty apartment, that’s going to be connected to the economic aspects as well.

Kimberly Casey 20:28
Absolutely. What we want to be able to do is to create the supports that families need to be able to thrive, right. When we’re looking at economic supports and this promoting family environments, as you said, they’re very connected. We know that a lot of families, in order to meet their basic needs, you do have multiple families or multiple parents who may need to be working. We want to make sure that we’re thinking through, how do we create safe spaces within that situation to be able to come in and support the family so that everyone can thrive?

Sandra Morgan 21:15
And when we do that, and we go to strategy five, how does that connect to our communities?

Kimberly Casey 21:24
Absolutely. So with strategy five, we’re looking at promoting social connectedness. Here’s where we really start moving through the social ecological model, to move just from the individual, just from the family, and really look at communities. So oftentimes, when we think about risk to trafficking or we think about responsibility for preventing trafficking, oftentimes, we unfortunately put that responsibility on the individual or on the family, who is really doing the best that they can with the circumstances that they have. We want to start moving from this idea of individual protection to how can we build safer communities that protect the individuals within it. Here, we’re really looking at community and school engagement activities. Perhaps we know that a lot of the students in our communities do have families that require both parents to be working outside of the home. In a community and school engagement activity, we could create safe spaces for those youth to go. We can create mentoring programs or peer to peer support programs, and then resources that help people engage and connect to their community so that they’re not experiencing isolation, which could be used by someone who is looking to traffic an individual as a way to build connection that may be taken advantage of in the future. We want to build in those healthy, productive social programs.

Sandra Morgan 23:06
And real connections. The last podcast we did was about helping youth online understand who a real friend is. People reaching out and so much of the exploitation, recruiting, has been done online. That social connectedness in person has become a critical factor in especially keeping our youth safe, for sure. Your strategy six, because we could spend a long time on five, but we’re doing an overview today. Strategy six, seems really huge. I think of the whole sky and what part of it can I contribute to? This sixth strategy is create protective environments. Help me with that.

Kimberly Casey 24:07
Absolutely. So it is very broad, right? Because when we think of all of the different places, that people are connecting, and living, and engaging, we really do want to make sure that all of those environments are safe. For individuals who are in the workplace, how do we make sure that there are well established, consistently applied, policies and practices that if something unsafe happens within the work environment, there is an opportunity to seek support and for help in that situation. How do we create structures so that that maybe is even prevented from happening right? We look a lot at our supply chains. We know that oftentimes within supply chains, workers are taken advantage of so that people can reduce the cost of production and sell goods at a lower rate, however, we need to make sure that all of those workers are protected. We also really want to be looking at our school environments. How do we create safety in the school environment so that if someone feels unsafe, they have the opportunity to reach out for help? This can be as simple as enforcing programs and policies related to bullying. When you send kids out on the playground, and you have monitors who are looking to make sure that those environments are safe, that is something that should be translated into the monitoring and practices of school environments as kids progress and age. And so really thinking through what is it that we can put in place to enhance safety from a physical, emotional, and mental well being component. We often think about physical safety, but we don’t necessarily think of that mental and emotional safety, which is extremely critical for youth who may be at risk or experiencing trafficking.

Sandra Morgan 26:11
Absolutely. So strategy seven is my sweet spot, foster multidisciplinary networks and coalitions. I think that is a way for us to move forward where we are all going in the same direction. But where I wasn’t really clear, is in strategy eight, promote social norms that protect against violence. What kind of social norms are we addressing in this strategic approach?

Kimberly Casey 26:50
Absolutely. So there are so many, again, that can kind of fall under this umbrella. But one of the things for example, within labor trafficking, we all like to purchase goods that are budget friendly, right?

Sandra Morgan 27:07
Yeah, I just use the word cheap.

Kimberly Casey 27:09
Cheap. Yes. Right. So we all want that, right? We’re all operating on a budget, we have limited resources. But one of the things that’s also really important for us to consider is, if a good is purchased extremely cheap, what were the production costs for that? So thinking through the supply chain, right? So if I’m paying $3 for a shirt, how much did it cost to produce that? And if I’m purchasing something so cheap, what’s the likelihood that someone may have been exploited through the production process? Really, one of the social norms is, while yes, we need to operate on budgets and be responsible with the funds that we have, how do we also interrogate and investigate to make sure that people who are producing the goods that we consume, didn’t experience exploitations so that they could receive something at a cheaper rate. So really, it’s holding businesses accountable for saying, “You need to be responsible for looking to make sure that your supply chains are free of forced or coerced labor, so that I can then feel comfortable and ethical in my purchasing of particular goods.” We know that there are certain industries that may be at higher risk for supply chain abuse and so it’s really being a responsible consumer, both from the financial perspective but also the ethical perspective to make sure that we’re not increasing demand for resources at a rate that our system can’t support.

Sandra Morgan 28:55
I love that. Our Live2Free student team here at Vanguard has been promoting changing social norms around fast fashion that feeds this area. I think it makes us begin to think about our own complicity in driving demand. We sometimes think, “Oh, I’m only one,” but that’s part of the social norms that we have to change. Oh my goodness, our time is almost up. But I don’t want to finish without looking at Appendix A, Appendix A in this framework. Sometimes people read something they never open the appendix. Appendix A is a treasure trove for your organization. It has activities and outcomes. If you’re writing up a program and you haven’t looked at how to do these things, you’re going to find some things that will fit for you. But the best part of this appendix is the idea of a collective forum. There are a few guidelines that help us all go in the same direction. When we’re talking about building a movement, ending human trafficking, we have to all go in the same direction so we leverage the momentum that we build. Can you give us just like 90 seconds of what the guidelines for a collective forum might be based on?

Kimberly Casey 30:39
Absolutely. So as we’re looking at collective action, like you said, we’re all working to move in the same direction. And so some of that is shared definitions, right? We need to make sure that we’re all talking about the same thing. We all want to have common goals, we also want to make sure that we are using similar measures. So if I’m collecting different data points than my partner is collecting, it will be difficult for us to show that collective impact. The other piece that I think is really important is recognizing, as we said, not everyone is going to engage in the same activity. So how do you make sure that there is synergy with the activities that you are implementing? So is what you’re doing mutually reinforcing? And are you regularly in communication with your partners? It is difficult to have a shared or common agenda if you are not constantly talking about what you’re learning and how you’re adapting. And so really making sure that those conversations are ongoing, and that everyone who needs to be in those conversations are involved.

Sandra Morgan 31:59
We are all going in the same direction, and giving us guidelines and kind of like map directions. It’s like listening to Siri or Alexa tell me where to turn next. That’s what this framework is really going to give us as we move forward. And I just have to say, Kimberly, that I am very grateful that you are serving in the Office on Trafficking in Persons at Health and Human Services and I’m grateful for your leadership. I want to invite you to come back and talk about some of these issues more in depth. I think the one I really want to look at next, so I’m like inviting you to our next podcast interview already, online so you have to say yes, right?

Kimberly Casey 32:58
Fantastic.

Sandra Morgan 32:58
Yeah, I want to talk about two generation, whole family approaches. And there’s just so many pieces of the framework, that we’ll take a deep dive, so I encourage everyone to go online, click on the link to the framework, and just spend some time figuring out where you fit in this structure, because it is going to help us grow the momentum of our movement to end human trafficking here and elsewhere. So Kimberly, thank you so much for joining us today.

Kimberly Casey 33:38
Thank you so much. I’ve enjoyed it. You know, I will talk about prevention at any point someone gives me the opportunity. So thank you for having me.

Sandra Morgan 33:46
I wish we were closer, we’re on opposite coasts, but we’ve got zoom. So that’ll be a great conversation. We’ll see you again another time.

Kimberly Casey 33:56
Thank you, Sandie.

Sandra Morgan 34:00

Thank you so much for tuning in today, I will see you all again in two weeks. In the meantime, go to the show notes to find the links we’ve talked about here today, and if you haven’t been to the website, go over to endinghumantrafficking.org, where you can find a library of past episodes, of resources, and get more connected with our community.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Lisa Murdock as the two discuss the critical response of medical institutions to human trafficking.

Lisa Murdock Lisa Murdock, MSN, RN, CNE Pediatric Acute Care Nurse & Co-Chair Healthcare subcommittee of the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force. Over the past 23 years, Lisa has worked in pediatric acute care hospitals nationwide and in Puerto Rico. Lisa began her journey in anti-trafficking efforts in 2014 after meeting a survivor in the community. That meeting inspired her to expand her work to include exploitation and human trafficking in healthcare education and to implement comprehensive, multidisciplinary, evidence-based protocols for inpatient pediatric hospitals. Lisa believes that healthcare providers, specifically nurses, are uniquely positioned at the frontlines of patient care to identify, advocate, and improve healthcare outcomes for at-risk individuals or those already being trafficked. She is the co-founder of ReVEST Medical Experts which provides healthcare providers and institutions with the necessary tools to improve their knowledge, recognition, response and prevention of violence, exploitation, and risky behaviors amongst their patients and families.

Key Points* It is important to inform health care workers with an updated and accurate education regarding human trafficking to move away from the sensationalized imaging and education they might be receiving from the media. * Using a screening tool that is comprehensive, including not just commercial sex trafficking, but also labor trafficking and aids in sensitively asking high risk questions, is important in both aftercare and prevention. * It is essential for an organization to have a policy surrounding exploitation and human trafficking, as well as a response protocol in place, to ensure that people know who to call and how to respond. * Upon discharge, it is critical a healthcare provider be aware of resources and referrals to provide the survivor with the tools they need to stay safe.

Resources* Ensure Justice * ReVEST * Human Trafficking Task Force Health Care Subcommittee * Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force * #278 – Identifying and Interacting with Minor Victims of Human Trafficking, with Dr. Jodi Quas * #259 – Which Screening Tool Should I Use, with Dr. Corey Rood * Ending Human Trafficking Handbook * Orangewood Project Choice * Lighthouse * Waymakers

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:00
It’s time to register for the annual Ensure Justice Conference at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice. The conference is always the first Friday and Saturday of March. That way you can make it a recurring event in your calendar. 2024, It’s March 1st and 2nd, we’re just a couple of months away. Our theme is “Keeping Our Children Safe Online.” We will explore the issues, what is happening online? What are the risks for our children at this stage of their development? What can we do as parents, caregivers, teachers, community members? Our speakers include many of our podcasts expert guests, and we are partnering with our Orange County Department of Education. Check out our website for more info and don’t miss the early bird rates. Go on over to gcwj.org/ensure justice, right now. There is a virtual option for our global listeners, as well as special rates for college students. Join us to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference at Ensure Justice, March 1st and 2nd, 2024.

You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode #313: Four Pillars of Medical Institution Response to Human Trafficking. My name is Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Our guest today is Lisa Murdock, MSN, RN, CNA. Look at all of those letters after her name. She is a pediatric acute care nurse, and here in Orange County, she is co-chair of our Human Trafficking Task Force Health Care Subcommittee. Over the past 23 years, Lisa has worked in pediatric acute care hospitals nationwide, and in Puerto Rico. Lisa began her journey in anti-trafficking efforts in 2014, after meeting a survivor in the community. That meeting inspired her to expand her work to include exploitation and human trafficking in health care education. Lisa believes that health care providers, specifically nurses, are uniquely positioned at the frontline of patient care to identify, advocate, and improve healthcare outcomes for at risk individuals or those already being trafficked. Lisa, welcome to the podcast.

Lisa Murdock 3:31
Thank you so much for having me, Sandie, I really appreciate it, especially as a fellow nurse and a mentor. I appreciate being here.

Sandra Morgan 3:39
I’m so glad to have you here. The focus I want to drill down on today is something that you have been so diligent to create here. As you are working in an acute care facility, as you are working in our anti-trafficking community and serving on our Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force, you’ve built a model, and collaborated with others on a model of four pillars for medical institution response to human trafficking. This is so helpful because so many times nurses particularly learn more about human trafficking, and try to get something started in their E.R. in their admission somewhere, and it becomes bogged down in lots of bureaucracy, and how do you take the next step? So today, Lisa is going to give us some solid foundations for how we proceed. So let’s start by taking a look at why you chose these four pillars.

Lisa Murdock 5:01
Absolutely, and I can give you a little bit of background too, as to why I got started in finding he action steps in working with acute care, and also survivors. We know that survivors are intersecting with health care providers and not getting recognized, not being linked to the resources needed, not having prevention, and our response for people at risk. So that really stimulated me into thinking, okay, how can we make this better? And then also, as I started talking with healthcare providers, specifically nurses, I think what people don’t realize, especially in large healthcare institutions, nurses are the largest part of the workforce, and nurses saying, “I knew there was something off, I knew I was missing something, but I didn’t know the right questions to ask or the right steps to take.” So that really inspired me to create something that would be both survivor facing and also assist providers in having the tools to do their job.

Sandra Morgan 6:08
I like that. And for me, when I was the taskforce administrator, I went to hospitals. I tried to get them to adopt algorithms and all kinds of things, but I was not part of the internal workings, and I think you brought that specific perspective to this. So how did you decide what elements had to be part of this foundational model?

Lisa Murdock 6:38
Well, I started with a response algorithm back in 2018, and it was really created based on other algorithms that I worked with, for other diagnoses. So we have an algorithm for asthma, for example, or appendectomies. It’s very common in healthcare for people to be familiar with response algorithms for certain diagnoses. So I basically took that format, and applied that to exploitation and human trafficking. But from there, I’ve done the Evidence Based Scholar Program and extensive literature review and synthesis, and realized that there were huge gaps in multiple facets of anti-trafficking work and response in healthcare. So first and foremost, education and training. So what is currently out there for education and training? A lot of times, and health care workers are susceptible to this as well, is the sensationalized imaging and education that they’re receiving from the media. So as I spoke with health care providers, they were still looking for kidnapping and other situations that aren’t really reflective of the scope of exploitation and human trafficking. So that was the first pillar, we definitely need updated, accurate education, on what is human trafficking and exploitation, where it intersects with health care, what it’s going to look like in different facilities and with different diagnoses, and also have the training not only on human trafficking and exploitation, but on trauma informed care. I look at trauma informed care. Many health care providers may have knowledge of what it is and how it affects the neurobiology of the brain, but I look at trauma informed care as a skill. So do you know how to implement it? Do you know how to ask the sensitive questions, provide a safe place, build rapport? So that is basically how I came up with that first pillar is looking at the literature, the gaps, and also from survivor study and perspectives on their experience within healthcare.

Sandra Morgan 8:58
Wow. Okay, so pillar one, education. What’s pillar two?

Lisa Murdock 9:04
Screening, so really asking the sensitive questions. Many people with lived experience for both, there’s multiple barriers to disclosure, both from the provider’s side and the survivor’s side. So from the provider side, maybe they’re not asking the sensitive questions, maybe they are not aware that most people entering health care are either fearful, feel ashamed, have been groomed to not say anything or evade the questions, so they may not readily disclose. So you really have to build the rapport and be able to ask those sensitive questions without judgment, and really creating the environment that would increase that disclosure. Using a screening tool that’s comprehensive, not limited to just sex trafficking, but that includes labor trafficking, that includes the high risk questions, so we can capture those at risk as well, before they’re exploited or being trafficked and end up in situations, or vulnerabilities that are beyond their control. So I think that’s another very important step that we need to take because it doesn’t just stop at education, we really need to go forward in order to make a difference.

Sandra Morgan 10:24
This idea of screening requires a little more rigor than just being trauma informed, and sensitive, and building rapport. Dr. Jodi Quas was on the podcast last year, with her research that showed that while youth and children with child abuse, child sexual abuse, will disclose in a certain kind of pattern, those who are being sexually exploited, commercially sex trafficked is the term we often use, are not disclosing. I know for myself that I have been in situations with victims, where I, in my mind, I’m asking the questions, and then I’m deciding, “Oh, okay, so she’s not a victim, oh, he’s not a victim,” so I skip to the next group of questions. So it’s not a necessarily great algorithm, because I’m making that choice. In a rigorous screening tool, you have to go through every checkbox and that helps overrule your own biases, and I think that’s an important piece. What would be a screening tool you would recommend?

Lisa Murdock 11:58
You know, I work closely with Dr. Corey Rood, and we both work in pediatrics. So he’s a child abuse pediatrician, and has done extensive work, both clinically, but then also in research and in the use of screening tools, even in other states, like Ohio and Utah, and we developed our own screening tool for youth under 18, just to fill some of those gaps, because there’s many screening tools that might focus on sex trafficking, or might focus on the adult population. I think that’s really important to capture both sex trafficking, labor trafficking, and also high risk behaviors. I think what, for me, is most important for institutions, is to make sure you’re using a screening tool that is for your population, the population that you’re working with. There are some conversations around not creating something that appears to be a checklist, to have more of a natural conversation, which, in part I agree with, but when you’re working with large healthcare institutions, and healthcare providers are working with multiple populations and diagnoses in a very fast pace setting, not everybody is going to have expert level of human trafficking, exploitation, trauma informed care, and screening tools. So it’s really having a screening tool that’s written in a trauma informed way, that is applicable to your settings. So a very long screening might not be applicable, like an emergency room setting where things are very fast paced, you need a more efficient tool. The other thing I will say about screening, before you even get into choosing a validated screening tool for your population, we’ve created a checklist, both myself and Dr. Rood, to make sure that you have steps in place that it is safe, and you have these steps in place before you start screening. Are your staff educated? Once you start screening and you’re increasing your identification of people in these situations, do you have response and referrals in place? Which kind of go to our next pillar, but you really need all the pillars together, and you have to make sure you have the environment that’s going to be conducive to that safe response that’s based on evidence based practice.

Sandra Morgan 14:31
So when I’m listening to you, I’m thinking about that conversation about checklists and being more organic, and you know, pilots who have flown hundreds of flights use a checklist every time. So even if it isn’t a really overt process, it is still a very valuable process, and as we do move to the next pillar, I do want to remind listeners that Dr. Corey Rood did a whole episode about the screening tools, so I’ll put a link to that in the show notes. What’s the third pillar Lisa?

Lisa Murdock 15:17
I would say policy and protocol. Making sure your organization has a policy surrounding exploitation and human trafficking with a response protocol in place, so when you are identifying people with lived experience, or those vulnerable to trafficking, people know who to call, and how to respond.

Sandra Morgan 15:39
Okay.

Lisa Murdock 15:40
This would really include that response algorithm that we’ve been talking about, but also a comprehensive policy that defines: What is human trafficking? What is exploitation, including youth under the age of 18, who are exchanging sex for something of value or a place to stay? That’s one that kind of falls between the cracks for some health care providers and pediatrics, and that is something I’ve seen in recent practice, where people are not aware that that still falls under that umbrella of exploitation. So really having a policy, and what that does is it extends beyond any one person’s employment or position in the organization. It’s something sustainable, it’s something that people in healthcare and multiple institutions, once you have a policy in place that’s defining what it is and how to respond, that will carry on beyond any one person’s employment.

Sandra Morgan 16:42
And this is the thing that I love about policy and you hear me say this often, it’s even in the Ending Human Trafficking Handbook that my friends and I wrote, that policies create process and develop patterns of ethical best practices. If you have policies in place, then someone who says, “Oh, I don’t think I need to do that this time because she looks like she’s got a good family support system around her,” policies help us overcome our own biases, and help us resist taking shortcuts.

Lisa Murdock 17:24
Absolutely. In healthcare, policies exist for many processes within institutions, I was surprised from my own experience at where human trafficking and exploitation was in policies. In one instance, it was mentioned in the Victims of Violence Policy, and it basically stated exploitation is a form of human trafficking. It didn’t define it, it didn’t say what that meant, what the federal definitions were, and it didn’t say how to respond or who to call. In pediatrics, anybody under 18, even if it’s just suspected that somebody is being exploited, that you need to call CPS and law enforcement, similarly with other abuse situations, but it wasn’t defined as such. So when somebody is pulling a policy, if it’s not complete and comprehensive as to what exactly is it and what to do about it, then it’s going to fall by the wayside. That’s why I feel policy is really important, and if you would have asked me 23 years ago that I started out in nursing, and I still work clinically at the bedside, that I would be advocating and writing policy…

Sandra Morgan 18:42
Oh my goodness me too!

Lisa Murdock 18:43
I’d be like, “Wait, I’m a clinical nurse, I’m a bedside nurse.” So if I can do this, anybody can do this, you just need to have the passion and the work ethic to really want to make a difference. That goes beyond hearing about human trafficking, and everybody has that kind of visceral reaction, like, “This is horrible. This is happening in our community, in Orange County.” I want to take it a few steps further and say, “We can absolutely do something about this. We have the evidence, there is multiple articles on all of these pillars, and what needs to happen to create this comprehensive response. Let’s do it. Let’s put these things in place.”

Sandra Morgan 19:24
Tell us the fourth pillar.

Lisa Murdock 19:26
Resources and referrals. Really important that we’re educating our staff, they’re trained on trauma informed care and actually how to implement it. We have a policy, a response protocol, we’re screening, we’re increasing identification. Okay, then what happens upon discharge? Do we have safety planning that needs to be survivor driven? Working with survivors on what is safe upon discharge, whether that’s a phone number, warm handoff to another agency, it really needs to be comprehensive, and it needs to be clear to healthcare providers, so they know who to call upon discharge. A lot of times, it’s discharge time and you’ll get your paperwork based on your diagnoses or whatever follow up you need to do, but do they have a safe place to stay, do they have resources? A youth survivor that I was talking with said, “Even if I had resources just for one night, would have been helpful.” Another youth had said, “Yeah, I was getting called noncompliant because I didn’t go to my appointments. But if you expect me to take the bus in my neighborhood where my trafficker was, or friends or my trafficker, I don’t feel safe taking the bus.” So you know, really asking questions about transportation, was I able to get there? And another interesting thing that I found in my work the last four years, is that not all health care institutions have the knowledge of what we have available in Orange County for resources. So whether it’s Project Choice, or Lighthouse, or other agencies, Way Makers for victims assistance. Many institutions weren’t aware, or how to coordinate those resources and conversations to create more of a comprehensive resource and referral follow up upon discharge.

Sandra Morgan 21:26
Those resources and referrals, for me personally, are one of the most critical steps in helping a survivor take the initiative themselves, for this not to be in the context of a rescue, but of a restoration. They’re part of the process, because it’s hard work. It’s not just moving from inside one building to outside. Many times in a healthcare situation, personally and I’m sure you’ve experienced this, you have to let them go, knowing that they’re not completely safe. So how do you give them all the possible tools and resources you can to help them reach a better outcome? I am so glad that’s part of this four pillar section. When I look at this, and if it’s okay with you, Lisa, I’m going to put this graphic in the show notes for this podcast, because overlapping all four of these pillars of education, screening, policy and protocol, and resources and referrals, is data collection and distribution. What does that mean? I have to have like a university professor here all the time?

Lisa Murdock 23:00
No, I think, I mean, it would be great, right? We’d have a biostatistician and researchers that were available for all units on all projects. But no, when it comes to data collection, it’s just really important that we are looking at each of these pillars, like let’s take education, for example, and just gathering data on that. Was it effective? Is it comprehensive? Is it equipping the provider with the tools they need to recognize and respond? And so what I have experienced with some surveys, so let’s just take education, for example, some surveys will say, “Do you feel that this education, this training, this webinar, has increased your knowledge, and your ability to recognize human trafficking or to know what it looks like? And of course, people are going to say yes, because after your webinar, you absolutely feel well equipped, because you definitely have a higher level of knowledge than you had before taking it. But it’s interesting, if you look at different studies, even ones done here locally in Southern California, if you give a provider or first responder a scenario, and then ask if they’re able to detect it, that doesn’t always happen. So it’s really being able to assess, using different scenarios, was it really effective? Are they really able to detect what exploitation, human trafficking, or high risk behaviors are after the training? So when it comes to data collection, it’s really taking that data on each of the pillars and see, is it comprehensive? Is it effective? Does it need to be modified and improved? Hospitals use PDCA cycles for many things. Plan, Do, Study, Act, you know, we’re very accustomed to looking at our response, and our evidence, and our practice, and then coming back to what can we do better. So it’s just taking the same cycles that hospitals already use to evaluate policy procedure, and just applying this to anti-human trafficking work.

Sandra Morgan 25:18
We’ve got four pillars, education and training, screening and implementation, policy and protocol, referrals and resources, and we’re collecting data on this. That’s like building a home, a house, and I think that there has to be a pretty comprehensive plan for starting this foundation, this model in your hospital, in your clinic. How are you going to do that? I was really impressed when you were asked that question, you created a flowchart for creating an organizational response. And for some of us, who we start off and we’re motivated, but then we don’t know what the next step is, I think this seven step process would be really helpful. Can you just run us through it very quickly?

Lisa Murdock 26:19
Yeah. So are you referring to kind steps to create an organizational response?

Sandra Morgan 26:24
Yes.

Lisa Murdock 26:25
So this really starts with identifying a human trafficking champion, in your facility or institution where you work. This is really important, because if you don’t have somebody that keeps pushing momentum forward, in my experience, especially when the pandemic hit, if I didn’t keep caring and pushing forward talking to larger stakeholders, it would be really easy to kind of have that program fall through the cracks. So it’s really making sure that you have somebody to champion that within your organization. The next step would be to form a multidisciplinary team to address the needs of your institution when it comes to human trafficking and protocol implementation. That’s important. That includes all key stakeholders. So all departments, not just the emergency room, but maybe inpatient. If you work in a clinic, including physician social work, nursing, security, administration, making sure that you have that kind of multidisciplinary team to address all the needs.

Sandra Morgan 27:32
Excellent.

Lisa Murdock 27:33
The next step would be providing education in trauma informed care to all staff. Sometimes it needs to roll out in sections, so maybe start with clinical staff. I’m a firm believer that it really should be all staff that work within your institution. There have been situations where clinical staff have not picked up on a youth that is in this exploitive situation. Even environmental services heard a phone call while they were cleaning in the room and picking up the trash, heard the youth on the phone and reported it to staff. So that’s why I think it’s really important that everyone’s aware of the signs, risk identifiers, and have basic understanding of human trafficking and trauma informed care.

Sandra Morgan 28:23
And then we get to move to the next step

Lisa Murdock 28:27
Implementing a validated human trafficking screening tool for your patient population. The next step would be creating that patient response algorithm specific to your facility. So a flowchart basically, so people know what to do at each step of the way, with the list of the numbers so they’re not fumbling, looking for numbers while they’re in this situation. Having everything ready.

Sandra Morgan 28:27
Okay.

Lisa Murdock 28:55
The next one would be ensuring that you have the referral and resources available for patients upon discharge, and then collecting the data. So knowing how many patients maybe you identified, that was a big one. When I started this program at an institution that I was working with, a biostatistician had asked me, “Well, how many have we seen in the past?,” and it will look like zero, because nobody’s actually recording it with the ICD 10 codes for the diagnoses. It’s really hard when people are doing retrospective chart reviews to really pull how many patients you’ve seen because nobody’s actually documenting it. Collecting data is really important, not only based on how many patients you’re seeing, but also is your education, up to date and effective, is your response, policy and protocol, is that effective? Do you have all the information you need? Have there been situations where there was a phone number or referral and resource on that algorithm that didn’t exist, and people can add to that to make it more more robust? Is your policy comprehensive? Does that need to be modified? Really collecting that data on all those pillars and then sharing that information with other institutions. Whether it’s at a national conference, whether it’s within your own county, maybe by being a member of your local coalition or Taskforce, but really making sure that information is available, because that is what’s helpful to other people. You know, when people talk about liability, like what if we see somebody that might be being trafficked and they get discharged, is that a liability? And I’m like, “No, the liability is if you’re not recognizing people.” People continue to get victimized, traumatized, and tortured, and we’re not giving them the tools they need to enter recovery.

Sandra Morgan 30:48
That leads to my favorite, because it’s almost like back to the beginning, now’s your opportunity to improve and modify, and this iterative process, every time we do it, we get better. We share that information and our community response is better as well. Lisa, there’s so much here. I am thinking through some of the areas where we need to drill down and I have to have you come back and do another podcast. So listeners, if you are in the healthcare field, and you have questions, I think we need to have a health care provider q&a. If I get enough questions, I’ll pull that together. In the meantime, as we wrap up this episode, Lisa, I am so grateful for your leadership, but especially for your ability to do the detailed and sometimes boring work. You nailed it. When you said as a bedside nurse, you’re like, I don’t want to do policy, and now it’s like you see the tremendous value. I think we all have to create space, as a movement in the health care, anti-human trafficking, create space for our various abilities and directions, because we need everybody in that section you talked about at the beginning of the seven steps. Interdisciplinary and multidisciplinary teams. I remember when I was a night charge nurse in pediatrics and we didn’t even have the language of “human trafficking,” but we did deal with sexual assault of children, and it was a respiratory therapist. That was the one who came and said, “I saw this, what should I do about that?” Everybody needs to be on the team. I love that in your response, protocol as well. Last statement, you’ve got one statement to close out. What do you want, especially nurses to do next?

Lisa Murdock 33:21
Well, first, I just want to thank all the survivors that are colleagues, friends, people with lived experience, who actually inspired me to go down this path and improving health care for all people, especially those most vulnerable. And to all the health care providers out there, it’s really working together to make sure they have the tools to do a better job, to improve practice, and to make sure that they don’t leave work, feeling like “I missed something. I feel like I missed something, I wish I could do something better.”

Sandra Morgan 33:57
Wow, and that is in the heart of every nurse. I have worked with nurses across the California area, nationally and internationally, male, female, everybody has this sense of care that extends beyond just, “I’m going to take your temperature, I’m going to get you well enough to discharge you. I want to see you thrive.” And that’s one of the things I love about being a nurse, and I think it’s why Lisa, you and I have stayed friends now for a decade, and I’m grateful for you. Thank you for being on the podcast today.

Lisa Murdock 34:45
Thank you so much for having me, Sandie.

Sandra Morgan 34:48
I will see you all again in two weeks. In the meantime, go to the show notes to find the links we’ve talked about here today, and if you haven’t been to the website, go over to endinghumantrafficking.org, where you can find a library of past episodes, of resources, and get more connected with our community.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Kevin Bales as the two discuss the importance of intersectionality when fighting to end human trafficking.

Kevin BalesKevin Bales is a professor of contemporary slavery and a co-founder of Free the Slaves, a nonprofit organization that works to end slavery worldwide. He has written several books and articles on modern slavery, human trafficking, and climate change. One of his main ideas is that slavery is not only a human rights violation, but also a major contributor to environmental degradation. Bales argues that slavery and human trafficking are driven by the global demand for cheap goods and services, which creates a market for exploited labor. He also shows how slavery affects the natural resources and ecosystems that sustain life on earth, such as forests, soils, water, and wildlife, calling it the “slavery footprint” of consumption. Bales also explores the concept of intersectionality, which is the idea that different forms of oppression and discrimination, such as race, gender, class, and ethnicity, are interconnected and mutually reinforcing. He suggests that slavery is an extreme form of intersectionality, where the most vulnerable and marginalized people are subjected to the most brutal and dehumanizing treatment. He advocates for a holistic and inclusive approach to ending slavery, that takes into account the diverse needs and perspectives of the enslaved and the liberated. Kevin Bales believes that slavery can be eradicated in our lifetime, if we act collectively and strategically.

Key Points* When analyzing contemporary forms of slavery, like human trafficking, it is imperative that the differences in the rates at which different people groups are affected, and how they are affected, be looked at as well. * Contemporary slavery affects multiple spheres outside of the social injustice sphere, as it is also aiding in the environmental destruction seen today. * A global campaign, public awareness, and a willingness to give something up, are needed for a national government to aid in the fight to end contemporary slavery. Education is a start to achieving this global campaign. * “There are links between slavery and genocide.”

Resources* Ensure Justice * Disposable People by Kevin Bales * Free the Slaves * Blood and Earth by Kevin Bales * UNESCO World Heritage * TIP (Trafficking in Persons) Office * Slavery: A Global Investigation * International Cocoa Initiative * Tony’s Chocolonely * Ending Slavery: How We Free Today’s Slaves by Kevin Bales

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:00
It’s time to register for the annual Ensure Justice Conference at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice. The conference is always the first Friday and Saturday of March. That way you can make it a recurring event in your calendar. 2024, it’s March 1st and 2nd, we’re just a couple of months away. Our theme is Keeping Our Children Safe Online. We will explore the issues: What is happening online? What are the risks for our children at this stage of their development? What can we do as parents, caregivers, teachers, community members? Our speakers include many of our podcast expert guests, and we are partnering with our Orange County Department of Education. Check out our website for more info and don’t miss the early bird rates. Go on over to gcwj.org/ensurejustice right now. There is a virtual option for our global listeners, as well as special rates for college students. Join us to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference at Ensure Justice March 1st and 2nd, 2024.

You are listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode #312: How Does Intersectionality Inform Our Response to Human Trafficking?, and we’re talking with Kevin Bales. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan. This is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Joining us today is Dr. Kevin Bales, a professor of contemporary slavery and co-founder of Free the Slaves, a nonprofit organization that works to end slavery world wide. Dr. Bales has written several books and articles on modern slavery, human trafficking, and climate change. Kevin advocates for a holistic and inclusive approach to ending slavery that takes into account the diverse needs and perspectives of the enslaved and the liberated. He comes to us now from Nottingham, where he directs the rights lab. Kevin Bales Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast.

Kevin Bales 3:16
Thank you, it’s great to be here.

Sandra Morgan 3:16
I am so excited to have you in our podcast lineup now because for years, I’ve followed you, I’ve learned from you. I remember when the first estimate of how many slaves there are, came from your office, 27 million. How does it make you feel that the current stats that were out this last year, pretty much verified that guesstimate all those years ago?

Kevin Bales 3:49
Well, it’s a bit larger number, the number that’s just come out, they’re not quite doubling it. But I have to say, I know that to be a better methodology. My methodology was in many ways, very weak and it was just the best we could pull together at the time, when nobody else was really trying to do that. While people read about it in my book, “Disposable People” where I put that number out, most people didn’t read the academic article that I published in parallel, explaining all the problems and all the deficiencies of my estimate, because I wanted to be totally honest about that.

Sandra Morgan 4:25
I read that, I read that.

Kevin Bales 4:27
Oh, good on you!

Sandra Morgan 4:28
Yes, yes, I did, because I was taskforce administrator here in Orange County, first grant for federal funding, and people wanted numbers. And it’s like, there’s no one raising their hand, there’s no census, these are estimates, so I read every word of the academic side. Actually, that kind of leads into my first question here because you’ve dedicated your life and your career to fighting slavery and human trafficking. Why did you choose an academic platform as your field of battle?

Kevin Bales 4:29
I don’t know if I chose an academic platform, in the sense that I was already an academic. It wasn’t like I said, “Okay, now I want to take on slavery. So I guess I’ll become a lecturer or a porter professor.” I had already been doing that, I had been very enamored with the life of the mind, as a university student, then a grad student. then a doctoral student, and then on and on like that. So I felt the tools that I had to bring to bear were, yes, I could talk and I could think, but I could also write, and I could also do analysis, and I was used to working in statistics and that kind of thing. It was really just turning the tools that I had to the job at hand, and learning quite a few other tools as well.

Sandra Morgan 6:03
So for young people now, joining in an academic setting, what do you say to them, as they begin to mold their career? We’re going to be handing this off to the next generation.

Kevin Bales 6:24
Oh, we’re very much doing that right now, and I’m so excited about a lot of the handing off I get to do, to the next generation of abolitionists and anti slavery workers. One of the things that I get to say to them is, we’re now at that place where we can really proliferate across technologies, techniques, theories, systems, all sorts of ways of analyzing and understanding, and what I really hope, and what I encourage, is that they just surpass me as quickly as they can. I have to say, I’ve got some colleagues, young colleagues, whose work in for example, Predictive Mathematics and Machine Learning that they apply to satellite imagery and things like that, I get the big picture notion of what they’re talking about, but in terms of understanding how they do what they do, they’ve lost me completely. I think that’s great.

Sandra Morgan 7:18
Oh, that’s inspiring. So you and I started a conversation during this holiday break about intersectionality in the battle to combat slavery and human trafficking, and I think this deserves more exploration. Can you give us kind of a 30,000 foot level concept for intersectionality?

Kevin Bales 7:48
Certainly, and it’s actually a pretty easy thing to talk through. It’s just that if you treat something like contemporary forms of slavery, human trafficking as only itself, and you’re not looking at the impacts, the drivers, the things that moosh it and move it around, you’re not going to understand how it fits together with the other serious and significant problems that we face. One of the things that woke me up, and quite a few years ago, I was sitting down with Vandana Shiva, who’s a very well known environmentalist leader and researcher in India, and we were talking about the same area of India where both of us had worked. She was talking about how environmental destruction was driving local villagers out of their space, out of their livelihoods, and making them incredibly vulnerable to debt bondage slavery. I had been meeting the same, in a sense, people, not exactly the individuals perhaps, but I’d been meeting the same groups of people who had been pushed out, and were caught up in this hereditary sometimes form of debt, bondage slavery. We looked at each other, and it was a funny moment, but we looked at each other, and it was like a big penny dropped in both of our minds. We realized, “Wait, you’ve got the drivers on that side, I’ve got the impact on the other side, and yet, I can also tell you that a number of the people that I’ve been studying who are caught up in slavery, are being forced to destroy the natural world in the same area that we’re both talking about.” Now, that was a true revelation about intersectionality, for me. The idea that we could say, “There are people caught up in slavery who are being forced to destroy the natural world,” but the destruction of that natural world is in fact pushing people into situations of enslavement. Then of course, when you look a little bit closer, it’s not a two handed game, it’s a three handed game. The third hand is all about where did the products go? Where did the produce go, the environmental impacts, what do they have down the line and so forth? Where does it fit into global supply chains? And all of a sudden, it’s everywhere, but it’s all linked back and tied back to the fundamental notions of what happens when you put people in situations of enslavement, and then, of course, use them to destroy the environment, and then use that destroyed environment to make profits, often in a criminal way.

Sandra Morgan 10:24
Can you give us a really simple example, concrete?

Kevin Bales 10:30
Sure. I mean, one of the areas when I went out to really document this deeply, and I ended up writing this book called “Blood and Earth,” which is about a deep documentation of this, one of the places that I went was down to the bottom of Bangladesh. At the bottom of Bangladesh, there’s a huge area of kind of a swampy, beautiful mangrove forest area, which is a UNESCO World Heritage Site. In other words, it’s supposed to be protected in all ways, it should never be messed with, no one should be living there, it should be kept very importantly pristine, not least for two key reasons. One is that that UNESCO World Heritage site, called the Sundarbans Forest, is the largest carbon sink in all of Asia. In other words, of all the co2 emitted across Asia, this is the most important part of the natural world, which is sucking that co2 out of the atmosphere and putting it back, and fixing it into seawater, which is what mangroves do. But what did I find when I went there? I found big chunks of this protected forest, which is supposed to be protected in all sorts of ways internationally, had been carved out to put in fish processing camps, and children were the ones who had been lured, and tricked, and enslaved, in that horrific exploitative and often violent control, to do all this processing of fish brought every day by fishing boats who didn’t really quite notice, or chose not to notice what was going on in the fish processing camp. In the fish processing camp, these children, these almost all boys, they were dying at a fast rate. They were getting really ill with different diseases, they were often very hungry, and they were always complaining, when I talked to some of them later, about diarrhea. They were constantly having diarrhea. Again, for me, one of those moments when the whole thing started to open up and make something clear to me was when I asked them, “What was your other health problem when you were caught in this fishing camp and enslaved to do all this fish processing?” and they said, “Oh, that was being eaten by tigers.” My jaw fell open and I said, “Wait, wait, eaten by tigers?” and they said, “Yeah, I mean, a lot of people died of diarrhea, but a lot of people died of being eaten by tigers.” I was like, what? How is this possible? Then of course, I learned that one of the reasons the Sundarbans UNESCO World Heritage Site is a heritage site, is because it’s like the last perfect breeding ground that’s protected for bengal tigers. But when the criminal slaveholders go in and cut the woods down, the forest down, the mangrove forest down, the tiger that lives there, and they’re territorial, can’t just like go off and fight other tigers to get their space. What, fundamentally, the slaveholders are doing is driving out little small deer and other animals from the hunting ground of a Bengal tiger, their territory, and replacing those deer and other small animals with small boys who became the prey of the Bengal tigers. It was almost as if, for those criminal slaveholders, that that was just one of those sort of attrition problems that you have when you have a business, that sometimes some of your fish processors will just be eaten by tigers, and they just moved on and didn’t really think much about it. Okay, that’s a horrific story, but you can see where you begin to put slavery, environmental destruction, protected and endangered species, which then endanger small children who are forced to do the the work which is part of the environmental destruction. Then when I asked, “So where does all this fish go?” they said, “Oh, almost all of this is kind of low grade fish. It’s processed into a kind of meal of sorts, a kind of mash of fish meat, which then is shipped off to North America and Europe as cat food.” So usually when I talked about this in public venues, I’d say, “Who’s got a cat?”, the shock of it when it begins to realize that the permeation of this is so insidious, that the cat that you love as your pet, is somehow feeding as well as the yigers did off these poor little kids.

Sandra Morgan 15:27
Okay, so now you’ve painted this very concrete picture for us, and we understand that within the context of intersectionality. But what do we do? Are there best practices? How do we actually do something to counter that?

Kevin Bales 15:48
This is a tough one for that particular situation because yes, there’s a supply chain, and it’s very evident. It’s not a hard supply chain to grasp, but it’s a very hard supply chain to police. One of the key reasons for that, is that as they tell you in Bangladesh, the most powerful organization might be the national government, but it might also be what they call the “Shrimp Mafia,” because the “Shrimp Mafia” exports fish and shrimp, from Bangladesh, to the tune of billions and billions of dollars, every year. They ship it all over to Western Europe, and all over to North and South America. For that reason, even when we were able to expose this and work with people, say in the TIP office in the United States, and we got the TIP ambassador to go and talk to them, talk to the government in Bangladesh, and so forth, there would be these minor little changes, and these minor little adjustments, but then pretty quickly, things would go back to normal, and we’ve not really been able to crack it. In other words, of actually getting past the power of what amount to mafias and gangs, who can control this raw and rural area down in a protected national forest. So it’s a tough one, and if anything, I suppose it would have to take a global campaign to make clear that shrimp and fish that come from there is dirty, and bloody, and needs to be inspected to the point that you that you move away from it. And again, that would require quite a large input and a lot of public awareness.

Sandra Morgan 17:40
And a willingness to give something up, that is part of our culture. We think it’s just normal to be able to go to the grocery store and pick up this particular item, and we don’t think about where it was before it arrived.

Kevin Bales 18:03
You know, it’s come on us, you’re right, it is part of our lives, but it didn’t used to be. I think I’m old enough, I remember when, if you ate shrimp, it was like four little shrimps around a special little crystal glass of cocktail sauce or something, it’s really fancy stuff that happened only in fancy restaurants, and the shrimp back then were coming out of the Gulf of Mexico. But when they began to build these enormous ships that were freezer ships, and they could load them with tons and tons of shrimp that have been partially peeled and then put into these plastic bags, all of a sudden the cost of shrimp fell to the floor, but not so far that people weren’t making profits. So in a sense, we just accepted the happy cornucopia of seafood that is not very expensive, that we can buy in big freezer bags, but we’ve done that because we didn’t really know what was going on.

Sandra Morgan 18:59
So one of the things that I love about doing this work from an academic platform is that you measure it, you talked about statistics, and the old adage is: you can’t manage something you can’t measure. So how can we use your research to mobilize an effective response? Who are the actors that need to? So in intersectionality, then, we’re not just talking about government, who else?

Kevin Bales 19:31
Well, it’s got to be a lot of the companies, the companies and then the retailers that would have to be brought on board with this. Yet, what we know is that even if we brought the retailers on site, Walmart suddenly said, “Okay, we’re going to look at every bit of shrimp. We’re going to make sure we don’t get any nasty shrimp imported into our freezers and stuff like that,” they could do that. But it’s ubiquitous, the seafood and it would take a long time to get everybody on board to, in fact, do what’s necessary. Now at the same time, after I uncovered all this, and I was able to start working with other people in the rights lab, where I work, at the University of Nottingham, we have a whole team that just works with satellites, and satellite imagery, and Earth observation. One of the first things that they ever did was, I talked to them and said, “Look, here’s a picture of people on the ground in one of these shrimp processing and fish processing camps, and it’s horrific,” and I told them about the tigers and so forth. I said, “But look, I went to Google Earth, here’s a picture of it from space.” So I knew where I was because I took my GPS coordinates when I was there, so that’s what it looks like from above. I said, “Could you look? I mean, you guys are special satellite people. What do you got? What can you tell me just from this?” and they said, “Let’s get back to you in a week.” A week later they said, “Okay, did you know about the 12 other camps?” and I was like, “No, I didn’t know there were 12 other camps.” They said, “Yeah, well, there are and they’re all operating in basically the same way,” and they said, “Did you know about the movement of camps over the last 15 to 20 years, as global warming has has raised sea level levels, and meant for some of the camps to move?” I was just like, “Amazing, no, I had no clue about this.” I was just pushing around on a boat, down in the swampy area. They suddenly said, “Oh, yes. Okay, so here’s the real challenge. It’s not about one camp, it’s about 12 camps, or at least 12 camps, and then they keep moving them when they find a better place, and so forth.” So if you had the ability to bring in law enforcement say, to bust these camps, it would be a remarkable change, but the situation in Bangladesh has been that law enforcement are very reticent to take on what they call the shrimp mafia, and it’s gonna take a lot, and possibly a change in government to make that happen.

Sandra Morgan 22:12
Wow. So then the strategies that we’re left with are pretty much civil society type strategies. What does that look like?

Kevin Bales 22:24
But in many ways, it’s got to be just about education, education, education. I mean, I think if we could somehow put that story out there in a way that it just kept being repeated and understood, and repeated and understood, and all of a sudden, shrimp started having a really bad taste in your mouth, we can begin to see a diminution of the purchase of these billions of dollars worth of multi zillion tons of shrimp and fish that come over to North and South America and Europe. But it’s a big one, because you’d have to literally be addressing all of the people who eat, in all of the countries that have these food imports from all over the place.

Sandra Morgan 23:12
So let me ask you this question. How successful do you see the chocolate score card and things like that, that we’ve done within the cocoa plantation realm? Is that something we can mirror?

Kevin Bales 23:29
Yes, I think we can. There’s a couple of ways that it’s different. I mean, I was around at the very beginning of this concern about slavery in chocolate and cocoa farming, because it was the film that we made with HBO, based on my first book about this Disposable People, where we went to Cote d’Ivoire, to the Ivory Coast, and we found, we didn’t know we were going to find this because we were actually looking for something else, but we found a bunch of young teenagers from a neighboring country, who had been lured into the Ivory Coast and then enslaved on a cocoa farm. We were able to trace that cocoa and we were able to talk even to the slave holder, and we were able to talk to the young men after they came to freedom, and so we kind of blew up the story. It led to this whole concern about slavery and cocoa slavery, Christmas candy, children having chocolate, and all that kind of thing. Now in many ways, one of the most important outcomes of that was the founding of the International Cocoa Initiative. That was a shotgun wedding. There were Senators in the American Senate, who worked very closely with us, and one of them called all of the presidents of the chocolate companies in the United States together in Washington and said, “Look, I’m just going to put this into a bill that will become a law, that you have to have a label on all your chocolate that says, ‘There is no child slavery in this chocolate.'” They said, “Well, there’s no way we can possibly do that, because we simply don’t know at this point, this is all new to us. We didn’t understand that there were these problems in the actual enslavement in cocoa.” He said, “Well, I don’t know what to do.” So he let them simmer for a little while, and then he said, “Okay, I’ll tell you what. If you can’t do that, what I do expect you to do…” and this was actually our Plan A was, “…you each have to put in about a million dollars a year, into an NGO that will be run by anti slavery specialists, who also know about the cocoa world, and who will begin to do the work on the ground, in the Ivory Coast and in Ghana, to go village by village and solve the problem.” That’s what the International Cocoa Initiative does. It’s not very flashy, it doesn’t get a ton of coverage, but when I came off the board of the ICI after 12 years, I was one of the founder members, but I came off after 12 years. At that point, we were up to about 60% of all the cocoa regions that we’d been able to work through and kind of declare clean, and they were now working through the rest of them. Then of course, you get Tony and Tony’s Chocolonely, and all his fantastic work in another way to make it in some ways, a lot more fun than the International Cocoa Initiative ever made it, as he, when he saw our film, he went and bought a lot of chocolate there in the Netherlands, and went to a police station because he had discovered that there was an old, old, old law in the Netherlands, that you shouldn’t buy things made by slave labor. So he bought a bunch of chocolate, went to a police station, and then turned himself in and he said, “I want you to arrest me, I violated the law. I bought this slave made cocoa.” They were like, “What?”, they didn’t know about the law or anything. He called me actually, this is years ago and said, “I want you to come over and testify against me in my trial.”

Sandra Morgan 27:09
I love that.

Kevin Bales 27:10
Yeah, I loved it too, but I did say, “I don’t think you need me, Tony, I honestly don’t. Plus, I won’t understand anything, everything’s going to be in Dutch. So I think you’ve got all the facts and figures you need.” He started out in a consumer way that has been super powerful. Then there are some chocolate companies that haven’t done too well. There are some American companies that were superb on it, like Mars, and like Hershey’s, but they were also companies that then later went public, so they were bought out by investors and not the family run companies. When I first met people from Mars, I met old man Mars. He was the elderly man who still owned the company and ran it with his sons, and he had very clear feelings that this was a moral problem, not an economic problem, and that you had to solve the moral problem. But of course, in time when the world began to let investing, and hedge funds buy up whole companies like that, he began to lose a lot of the of the moral direction. So we’re not done yet with with slavery and cocoa, but we’re a lot closer than we might have been, and we’re a million miles ahead of any questions about shrimp, or fish.

Sandra Morgan 28:30
One of the things that you said in the beginning of this part of the conversation, you use the word “luring” these kids here. I’ve seen a lot of, and I’m using air quotes, “prevention strategies” that are aimed at putting the responsibility on the child not to fall victim to being lured, and here are the red flags. Can you address the problem with that?

Kevin Bales 28:56
Oh, well, I mean, it sounds like a lovely idea. I think if you’re a middle class American, who’s got a good bit of education, but if you’re talking about the families like those kids in Bangladesh, their parents are illiterate, they live in fear, often, of just the big wigs around them in the countryside, and then there’s the fact that the kids are often hungry in the families who are doing this agricultural work not that far away. When somebody comes along, and seems to be educated, and nice, and friendly, and says, “You know, your son, he could come and work for a few months, and here’s an advance, we can give you an advance on his pay, and he’ll be back within three months and so forth.” It’s one of those really tough choices, isn’t it, that any parent would have to face? If they said, “I could get a situation where my kid could earn some money, actually get enough to eat, and maybe open some opportunities, but I can’t really be certain.” So they give in because they think maybe they’re doing the right thing, and that’s when I think, possibly, some of that preventative work that you could do on the ground could help, but you’d have to find them. You’d have to work your way up and down the riverbanks, you’d have to work your way all over the agricultural part of lower Bangladesh, for example. I mean, it would be quite an enormous task, and lots of different languages as well, which is not a reason not to do it, but it would also be about how you make that penetration, and how you could convince them there was something else. Then essentially stand in the stead of this tricky way of luring somebody into exploitation, and you could give them an alternative, which could be a school. I work with a group that does a lot of building of schools in villages in India, in northern India, up in Uttar Pradesh. Villages that are in hereditary forms of collateral debt bondage, slavery. The process, it takes about three years to take the whole village from slavery to freedom, but it always begins with the insertion of a school, which is actually a Trojan horse. Because the school teachers, the people who come to cook at the school, they’re all themselves ex-slaves, who have been through the same process of liberation and education, and they slowly begin to work with these people who have been in slavery for many generations, so they have no sense of freedom. They have no sense of what it’s like on the outside world, they’ve never left the village for generations. So it takes, like I say, two to three years to finally reach that moment when someone who’s been caught in lifetime of debt bondage slavery to say, “Wait, so your life wasn’t like this. How do we do that?” That’s, of course, when the door opens, and things begin to be possible.

Sandra Morgan 31:58
Wow, there are so many things we could keep talking about, but I’m looking at the time. I’m going to put links to everything we’ve talked about in the show notes for our listeners, but I was struck years ago, with the cover of one of your books. I think it was the “Ending Slavery” book, because it had an Oprah Magazine quote. “Tempers horror with hope.” Can you leave us with what are some of the emerging opportunities that give you hope now?

Kevin Bales 32:37
I think one of the most powerful facts is that whether it’s 27 million people in the world, or 35 million people in the world or whatever, within a global population, which is now over 8 billion, we’re actually dealing with a minority small problem. It’s horrific, it’s horrendous, it’s ancient, it’s deadly, but in numerical terms, it’s a fairly marginal activity. That actually does give me some hope, because I realized that if we can bring people to really commit to the idea that we don’t have to live in a world with slavery, we can actually get rid of this because it’s actually so small in global terms, then we could do so. Of course, that flips back to the whole question of notions of intersectionality. There’s a link between slavery and genocide, for example, which we’ve been exploring very strongly, and it’s absolutely there. There are links between slavery and child and early and forced marriage, and there’s a link between slavery and certain religious groups, which used religion to take people and enslave them, or justify slavery and so forth. There’s a whole series of ways that this fits together into our highly complex, but also highly human cultures, and I say multiple because it’s all these different cultures, and all these different peoples and ways of being, but nearly all of them are okay with the idea that freedom is a better notion than slavery, with some bad actors. I think when we begin to understand the warp and the weft in the woven fact of enslavement around us, we’ll be able to unpick that and help people see the right way out, whether it’s through economics or through faith and religion of a better type as it were, or if it’s about ending that environmental destruction and then giving ex slaves the job of replanting forests, or rebuilding environmental systems. I mean, that alone would provide enormous amounts of work for people who have come out of slavery, and it would also be reducing our co2 load, day after day, time after time, to the point that we might not have the global warming that we’re all a little worried about. So if we think big, and if we think optimistically, which is hard occasionally, but I think that way, I don’t see why we can’t do this. I’ve been at this for what, 35 years, or something like that? The people in the past, they were on it for 100 years, or 150 years when they were confronting things like transatlantic slavery. I hope, and I’d like to think, we’re just getting warmed up.

Sandra Morgan 35:38
I totally agree with you. Years ago, I read James Davison Hunter’s book “To Change the World: The Irony, Tragedy, and Possibility of Christianity in the Late Modern World,” and he took a look at how Wilberforce addressed that transatlantic slavery you just mentioned, and really focused on overlapping networks. So when we started talking about intersectionality, it reminded me of the Wilberforce overlapping networks observation. I feel really encouraged that what you’re projecting is a call for those overlapping networks with the Eco-dpecialists, and the business people, and government, and the faith based community, and civil society, we have to have a lot of overlapping networks to create a safety net that no child is going to slip through.

Kevin Bales 36:43
Exactly right, and I would throw in a lot of other networks. We’ve just done a lot of work for the US military, about educating soldiers that are sent all over the world so they will recognize this type of abuse, and exploitation, and slavery, and trafficking, and be able to report back and understand how to address them. We have thousands and thousands of US soldiers all over the planet, and it sort of goes on not just from them, but from people who are concerned about child marriage, and certainly the situation of slavery that explodes whenever there’s a conflict. 90% of the conflicts in the world today have slavery as part of how they’re being prosecuted. It’s fundamentally tactical slavery, and often strategic slavery as well, which actually takes you to the situation of genocide and slavery, and their linkage. think the more we understand how this all fits together, it begins to teach us: which thread do we pull to unravel this nasty knot?

Sandra Morgan 37:43
Well, we are going to be following you to see which thread you’re going to pull next.

Kevin Bales 37:50
Yeah, I wish I knew too.

Sandra Morgan 37:53
Oh, my goodness. I’m always inspired by the the flow of ideas and challenges, and I’m grateful for your leadership, and the fact that you have been doing this for 35 years. We’re gonna keep doing that. I think we have to have another interview because we ran out of time, to go a little deeper, but thank you so much, Kevin.

Kevin Bales 38:20
It’s been great to be with you, Sandie, I really appreciate the opportunity.

Sandra Morgan 38:25
We’re inviting you to take the next step to go over to endinghumantrafficking.org. That’s where you can find resources we’ve mentioned in this conversation, and so much more. The anti human trafficking certificate program here at the Global Center for Women and Justice at Vanguard University, has new classes starting every eight weeks. If you haven’t visited our website before, this is a great first step for you. Become a subscriber, and you’ll receive an email with the show notes with every new episode. Of course, I’ll be back in two weeks for our next conversation.

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Dr. Sandra Morgan is joined by Kaitlyn Zedalis as the two discuss the role of forced criminality in labor trafficking.

Kaitlyn ZedalisKaitlyn Zedalis is the associate director of research, learning, and advocacy for the Covenant House Action and Research Tank (CHART) at Covenant House New Jersey, where she oversees agency initiatives related to research, program evaluation, and advocacy. Kaitlyn has assisted organizations across North America on the topics of human trafficking, screening and assessment, trauma informed care, and best practices for serving victims of human trafficking. She has a master’s degree in social work from Stockton University, where she currently serves as an adjunct professor, and is a licensed social worker and licensed clinical alcohol and drug counselor.

Key Points* The Covenant House Action and Research Tank, or CHART, is an initiative of Covenant House New Jersey that conducts research, develops evidence based strategies, and seeks solutions for complex problems such as homelessness and human trafficking. * Labor trafficking by forced criminality is when the labor a person is required to perform is a crime, heavily intertwining criminalization and victimization. * Covenant House New Jersey’s research found that a supportive adult relationship in an individual’s life serves as a protective factor from trafficking. * In many cases, a victim is forced or coerced to remain in an unsafe situation for fear of getting in trouble with the law, as they see themselves as engaging in criminal behavior rather than a victim.

Resources* Ensure Justice * Covenant House New Jersey * CHART * QYIT Journal Article * Labor Trafficking by Forced Criminality * 306 – Survivor Voices Leading Change, with Jerome Elam * Trafficking in Persons Report 2023 * Caring Adult Relationships Journal Article

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:00
It’s time to register for the annual Ensure Justice Conference at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice. The conference is always the first Friday and Saturday of March, that way you can make it a recurring event in your calendar .2024, it’s March 1st and 2nd, we’re just a couple of months away. Our theme is Keeping Our Children Safe Online. We will explore the issues: What is happening online? What are the risks for our children at this stage of their development? What can we do as parents, caregivers, teachers, community members? Our speakers include many of our podcast expert guests, and we are partnering with our Orange County Department of Education. Check out our website for more info and don’t miss the early bird rates. Go on over to gcwj.org/ensurejustice right now. There is a virtual option for our global listeners, as well as special rates for college students. Join us to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference at Ensure Justice, March 1st and 2nd, 2024.

You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode #311: Youth Labor Trafficking and Forced Criminality. My name is Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Our guest today is Kaitlyn Zedalis, and she is the associate director of research, learning, and advocacy for the Covenant House Action and Research Tank (CHART) at Covenant House New Jersey, where she oversees agency initiatives related to research, program evaluation, and advocacy. Kaitlyn has assisted organizations across North America on the topics of human trafficking, screening and assessment, trauma informed care, and best practices for serving victims of human trafficking. She has a master’s degree in social work from Stockton University, where she currently serves as an adjunct professor, and is a licensed social worker and licensed clinical alcohol and drug counselor. Kaitlyn, welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast.

Kaitlyn Zedalis 3:15
Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Sandra Morgan 3:17
I’m so excited about our conversation today, our theme around labor trafficking by forced criminality. I follow the research out of Covenant House closely so tell us just briefly, for our listeners who don’t know Covenant House, tell us about Covenant House and CHART.

Kaitlyn Zedalis 3:41
So Covenant House New Jersey was established in 1989. We’re a subsidiary of Covenant House International, which is the nation’s largest nonprofit organization serving youth facing homelessness. Covenant House New Jersey operates shelters with onsite supportive services, including legal, mental health, and case management services in Newark and Atlantic City. We offer additional programs throughout the continuum of care. Since October 2020, Covenant House New Jersey has also served as the single point of entry for individuals who have experienced human trafficking to access services in New Jersey, and in 2017 Covenant House New Jersey’s research on human trafficking among youth experiencing homelessness, led to the creation of the first scientifically validated brief screening tool for human trafficking, called QYIT or Quick Youth Indicators for Trafficking, which has been published in peer reviewed journals. The Covenant House Action and Research Tank or CHART, is an initiative of Covenant House New Jersey that conducts research, developed evidence based strategies, and seeks solutions for complex problems such as homelessness and human trafficking. Our approach rests on three core pillars: training and advocacy, research and services. We provide training and technical assistance and advocate with outside entities to improve services for victims and youth, we conduct research that is geared toward developing best practices that serve as a model for service providers, and developing innovative practices that we integrate into our own services.

Sandra Morgan 5:18
Okay, wow, that is a lot and it is really important, to my perspective, that research based advocacy is a pillar in what Covenant House does, in my experience, and it’s why our tagline for the podcast is study the issues, be a voice, make a difference. Lots of times people are horrified when they find out children are being labor trafficked, but they start talking before they’ve done their research, and sometimes the things they say, may not actually be beneficial, it may not help us move this forward, so that research is critical. I’m also a big proponent of participatory action research, our listeners have heard me talk about that in the past. We’re going to put links in the show notes to the 2017 study that you mentioned as well. But can you talk about your research design and what you mean by action tank?

Kaitlyn Zedalis 6:30
Yeah, so really, our goal is to contribute effective evidence based and client centered program approaches to local and national dialogue. So when we say action tank, what we really mean is seeking change through the simultaneous process of taking action while doing research. So this is really different from the traditional research model where a researcher sort of swoops, in conducts the research, and then leaves. We really focus our research on developing evidence based, client centered approaches that can serve as a model for other service providers. We use that information to drive, improve, and disrupt traditional models of care. So this really targets the research we select, and we don’t do the research and then not utilize the information we gather. We use the information we learn to improve our services, to help improve the services of other providers, and to advocate for policies that serve in the best interest of survivors of human trafficking and young people experiencing homelessness.

Sandra Morgan 7:35
You and I could spend a lot of time right there, but we have a mission. Today we’re going to talk about labor trafficking by forced criminality. Can you give me an example of what that looks like for our youth?

Kaitlyn Zedalis 7:49
Yeah, so labor trafficking by forced criminality is really any labor trafficking where the labor a person is required to perform is a crime. So with that, the criminalization and victimization are really intertwined. So the most common crime is drug distribution, but we’ve also seen other crimes like shoplifting, theft, assault, and battery. Some of the cases that we highlighted in the research, one of them was the case of Aiden, who was 12 years old, took a job delivering food products, and later learned he was actually delivering drugs. He only received a portion of the money he earned and the trafficker told him if he didn’t do what he was told, or told anybody, he would be hurt. Or the case of Emily, who was 17 and was homeless with an older romantic partner, and the romantic partner began arranging for her to have sex with men for money, shoplift, and steal, and would beat her if she refused. So it’s really anytime that what the person is being forced, frauded, or coerced into doing is a crime.

Sandra Morgan 8:55
And I think when we see these youth in our juvenile courts, or even when some of them age out, and now they’re in an adult court, we aren’t seeing them through the lens of coercion, that this was not actually a choice that they made to be part of a criminal activity. So when I’m thinking about this, I want to think about the characteristics of the victims, the survivors, as we think through your findings, and for some of my listeners that are in academic settings, we will put the methodology links in the show notes, but you can tell by Caitlin’s conversation, they’ve been very thorough in how they do this. Let’s talk about the survivors and what made them more vulnerable, their characteristics.

Kaitlyn Zedalis 9:59
Yeah, so I do think as we’re talking about some of the results in the findings, it is just helpful to frame that, you know, basically what we did was a case series analysis. We looked at 18 cases of labor trafficking by forced criminality among young people experiencing homelessness at Covenant House, New Jersey. So one of the first things to highlight that we found is that 64% of the labor trafficking survivors among our young people experiencing homelessness were forced criminality survivors, so it was the most common type of labor trafficking among the young people we serve. We found that it was more common among males than females, so 67% male versus 33% female. The demographics of the victims were very similar to the demographics of our young people at Covenant House New Jersey, overall, 44% of the victims were African American, 28% Caucasian, 6% were multiracial, and 22% identified their race as other. 10 out of 18 were a minor at the time of their trafficking experiences, and when I say a minor, we were overwhelmed by the young ages at which the trafficking experiences had occurred. So four of those 10 were under the age of 12, at the time of their trafficking, and five were between the ages of 12 and 15.

Sandra Morgan 11:26
Wow, and this makes me think back to a podcast interview a few weeks ago with Jerome Elam who was a CSEC victim, but also experienced forced criminality, and so his experiences in the juvenile justice system, identified his delinquency over his victimization. That started for him very young as well. We could do another conversation about the characteristics of the survivors, but digging a little deeper, can we talk about childhood experiences that they may have had in common?

Kaitlyn Zedalis 12:15
Yeah, so other research had already shown a relationship between traumatic experiences and trafficking experiences, though there is less research available on traumatic experiences among victims of labor trafficking. But often, victims have multiple long running victimizations that they’ve experienced over the course of their life. So the average ACE score, among the forced criminality victims was 6.66. That average ACE score was very similar to our average ACE score among all of our youth who experienced trafficking, but it is higher than our average ACE score among our young people experiencing homelessness overall, which was 4.69. We also found that 90% of the victims had at least one absent parent during their childhood, including 30% with a deceased parent. And more than half were in foster care at some point in their life. This is higher than the rate of foster care experiences among all trafficked youth, we looked at in our analysis, which was at 46.5%. Again, this is in line with other research that showed a relationship between a history of foster care experiences and human trafficking.

Sandra Morgan 13:34
So the history of foster services was not as significant as I expected it to be because it feels like in this sector, we talk about the foster system as being more of a main place that victims are recruited out of, and I’ve heard, particularly in CSEC conversations, numbers in the 90th percentile. So seeing this around 53%, made me wonder if we aren’t asking all the right questions about that. I’m really surprised about the number of absent parents who are deceased, and so much of the common understanding, there’s this almost blaming the parents for not being more active in their child’s lives, and there may be other areas that we can be identifying for strengthening when we’re looking at prevention strategies. That’s my take on reading and being really inspired by your research. So correct me, jump in any way you want to Kaitlyn.

Kaitlyn Zedalis 15:02
Yeah, I think we thought those findings were really related to some findings in Covenant House New Jersey’s previous research on trafficking experiences among young people experiencing homelessness, where having a supportive adult relationship was found to be a protective factor for trafficking experiences. What we really found was that these findings supported that research as well, that caring adult relationships do really play a key role in the prevention of trafficking, and so I think ensuring in children who are engaged with the foster care system, trying to find ways to make sure that there are caring adult relationships in their life. I think it really highlights the importance of finding ways to get young people who are vulnerable because of foster care experiences, or deceased or absent parents, you know, really supporting those young people and wrapping around them from a young age is important.

Sandra Morgan 16:09
I really appreciate that and one of the questions that I want to pursue after listening to this, I want to talk to some folks in our foster system here, because that number being so close to 50%, I’m looking at the other side of that coin in thinking, “So about 50% of those in foster care, are in situations that have demonstrated that one caring adult that’s been protective for them.” I’m just starting to wonder how do I find out more about that as well. Let’s go on though, because I get bogged down in these little details, and you have so much data, I love all the data. Let’s talk about the types of exploitation that you identified.

Kaitlyn Zedalis 17:08
What we found is that in 12 out of the 18 cases, it was labor trafficking only, and six out of the 18 cases, it was labor and sex trafficking that the person had experienced. Four of those six cases, it was a situation where there was labor and sex trafficking happening simultaneously, and two of those six had unrelated sex and labor trafficking experiences, so two separate episodes of trafficking. The most common underlying crime, as I mentioned, was drug distribution. This has been shown in other research of labor trafficking among youth experiencing homelessness. One of the things that came through was that there really wasn’t a pattern in terms of the relationship to the trafficker. This is important to highlight because this really creates challenges for law enforcement in being able to know what or who to look for, among those who are experiencing forced criminality. I do want to point out, though, that there almost always was some sort of co-occurring relationship with the trafficker. There were some cases where it was gang related trafficking, some cases where it was a family friend, familial trafficking was something that we saw, romantic partners, a landlord, a person who offered housing when someone was homeless. There was very commonly another relationship with the trafficker, and that relationship can often play a role in why the victim will remain in a trafficking situation and doesn’t report the crime. That secondary relationship can really create some additional challenges.

Sandra Morgan 18:48
Are some of those youth actually dependent on those relationships for their housing?

Kaitlyn Zedalis 18:56
Yeah, so there were definitely cases where the trafficker was providing that person shelter in the case, and in the familial trafficking cases, especially when the victim was very young at the time of the trafficking experience, they were dependent on the trafficker for their basic needs.

Sandra Morgan 19:14
And the other question here, when we’re talking about the most common underlying crime was connected with drugs, there’s kind of this perception that, “Well, the kids are taking drugs, and so they’re doing this to get their own drugs.” What did you see in that area?

Kaitlyn Zedalis 19:32
We didn’t have enough reliable data in this area to make any conclusive findings, in terms of substance use challenges among the young people who we looked at. You know, there’s also just challenges in this situation where young people often don’t feel comfortable reporting their substance use history. So unfortunately, it’s not something we had a lot of data in, but based on the narratives that we were reading, we didn’t get the impression that substance use was the most common form of coercion really being used to keep young people in their trafficking situation.

Sandra Morgan 20:14
Okay, thank you for commenting on that. I appreciate that. So then how did they control the victims?

Kaitlyn Zedalis 20:23
We saw a lot that was around threats of harm and physical abuse. We also saw situations where they felt like they had to stay because they were seeing other people hurt if they tried to leave, or threats to harm family members, and we saw a few situations where there was the withholding of identification documents. I think the other thing that’s kind of key to highlighting forced criminality, is that there’s always this underlying fear of getting in trouble. This fear that if they were to go to law enforcement for help, since the criminalization and the victimization are so intertwined, the victim often doesn’t see themselves as a victim, and doesn’t think what’s happening to them is a crime because they see themselves as engaging in a criminal behavior. So that makes it even harder for a victim to go to law enforcement for help.

Sandra Morgan 21:19
And I really identify with that after a lot of conversations with survivors over the year, when we asked them, “Why didn’t you ask for help?” It’s like, “I thought I was the problem, I thought I was going get in trouble.” So that’s really helpful to see that, it’ll change how we have these conversations. Moving along in the findings, because I can never believe how fast our time goes, but were there some surprises?

Kaitlyn Zedalis 21:50
Yeah, so one of the surprising findings, and the reason we were able to come across this, is because of this action research model, we’re able to look at client’s entire records of their time with us. We have access to information that, in a more traditional research model, isn’t necessarily something that we would make a research question. One of these surprising findings was that 47% of the forced criminality victims identified as having at least one child by age 22. Just to really highlight how sort of staggering that number is, it’s compared to 18% of other youth who experienced any type of trafficking, and 14% of all the young people we serve. In most cases, they became a parent after the trafficking experience, and we know that because of the age at which the trafficking occurred. So this is something that, as far as we can tell, doesn’t occur in the literature anywhere else right now, so there’s really more research that’s needed. There’s some other research that’s been done, that’s shown in our research that we conducted at Covenant House New Jersey in 2017, parenting classes were identified among young people experiencing homelessness, who had also had a trafficking experience as a common need. There’s been other research that’s shown a relationship between high ACE scores and male involvement in teen pregnancy, between parenting young mothers and legal problems, between conduct disorder and adolescent pregnancy. So there’s enough research out there that suggests that this is more than an incidental relationship and that there may be similar root causes, but there really is a need for more research in this area, and we’re glad that because of our methodology, we were able to find something that maybe wouldn’t have otherwise been found.

Sandra Morgan 23:48
I love the fact that we’re casting vision for future research, because I know lots of students listen to this, and they don’t know what direction to start studying. So hopefully, someone’s going to pay attention to that. Okay, a few more of the findings. I didn’t quite understand the use of the word temporality of victimization and arrest. Can you expand on that and what you found?

Kaitlyn Zedalis 24:16
Yeah, so in the other research that had been conducted in 2017, and this is part of what helped frame this research project, was that we found that there was a relationship between history of arrest and trafficking experiences, but all we knew was that there was a relationship between them. So we didn’t know if the trafficking was coming before or after the arrest, and we felt that that was important to know, because it could really offer some opportunities for prevention, if we could learn more about that. There was information about the timing of the arrest in relation to the trafficking experience for 12 youth who had experienced arrest and forced criminality. None of those 12 were identified by law enforcement. So none of them were identified during their trafficking experience, and none were identified as a victim by law enforcement after their trafficking experience. Only three of those 12 were even possibly charged for the underlying forced crime, we don’t know for sure, but based on the timing, it’s possible. But nine had experienced force criminality before their arrest, and at least eight of those nine, as I said, it was unrelated to the forced crime. There was one who had a juvenile charge that was likely related to the forced criminality, but because of sealed records, we couldn’t know for sure. All nine were between the ages of seven and 15 at the time of their trafficking, including four who were under the age of 10. So really, what we learned is that the forced criminality was occurring before this person was interacting with law enforcement. They weren’t being identified by law enforcement as a victim during their trafficking experience, or after their trafficking experience. They were just remaining kind of undiscovered by law enforcement.

Sandra Morgan 26:20
Wow lots more to unpack there, but let’s go into how homelessness was an entry way to criminalization.

Kaitlyn Zedalis 26:30
So the average age that the victims of forced criminality first left home was about 14 and a half, and 67% had had periods of unsheltered homelessness. What we found is that of the victims who experienced forced criminality before their arrest, their initial arrests, were predominantly for low level crimes of poverty. So things like loitering, fare evasion, theft, trespassing, disorderly conduct, simple assault, driving offenses. It was very often low level crimes of poverty that we’re resulting in their first interaction with the legal system. However, these charges lead to an accumulation of later charges and warrants with increasingly severe consequences and unresolved warrants that resulted in increasing consequences. So they were kept being criminalized and the poverty was really their entry into the criminal justice system, while they were remaining undetected as a victim.

Sandra Morgan 27:33
Wow. Okay, so all of this is a lot to process, but if you can give us a capsule of how to look at this for how we might practice now, some recommendations, because we want to use this action research as a way of improving, in real time, what we’re doing right now.

Kaitlyn Zedalis 28:02
So I think one thing that we found is that when victims had access to free, high quality legal representation, which they received at Covenant House, New Jersey, their charges were largely dismissed. All of them had their charges dropped or significantly reduced. So this is really evidence of the importance of high quality legal representation for those who are charged with low level crimes of poverty. It’s also important, I think, that we really think of increasing the awareness of labor trafficking by forced criminality. The crime is often undetected, victims don’t see themselves as victims and often don’t report their experiences, especially to law enforcement. This is definitely a type of trafficking that doesn’t get as much public or media attention, though we were very excited forced criminality was mentioned in the State Department’s Trafficking in Persons Report this year, which we thought was great, so it is moving in that direction, but just continuing to increase awareness of forced criminality. I also think that screening is a really important tool in the work against forced criminality, if we can identify victims and connect them to services before they enter the criminal justice system, we can really make it a big impact there. As well as, the other thing we think about is how can we increase our identification of unaccompanied youth experiencing homelessness? I mentioned the average first age they left home was around 14 and a half, so how can we identify young people who are experiencing homelessness? We know that students experiencing homelessness in schools, identification among that population is often low. By identifying those who are experiencing homelessness, we can really try to prevent some of these experiences and connect young people to the services they need. The other thing I just want to highlight is there’s really a need for additional research in this area. As far as we can tell, this is one of the only research articles about labor trafficking by forced criminality, that’s been done domestically, and it is such an important area to get more research on.

Sandra Morgan 30:22
I totally agree. I love that, and I’m going put a link to the screening tool that you mentioned previously, here, the QYIT tool. So those of you listening, there is something to start with now. Then as we wrap up, how can we be more positioned with our policy recommendations?

Kaitlyn Zedalis 30:46
So I think making sure that victims have access to victim of crime compensation is important. Forced criminality and poverty are really linked, so if we can connect victims to funds, we can maybe prevent some of that criminalization process that can be happening. We want to make sure that there’s not barriers to accessing victims of crime compensation, like open warrants, creating barriers, or sometimes even requiring disclosure to law enforcement as a barrier to accessing victim of crime compensation. I think ensuring access to those funds in a way that really simplifies the process is important. We also really highlight the importance of safe harbor laws for labor trafficking. There’s been good work done in this area for Safe Harbor laws for sex trafficking, but making sure that someone can’t be prosecuted for a crime that they’re forced to commit in a trafficking situation, and I think the other one is creating diversion programs for low level crimes of poverty. We know there are other things going on underneath those crimes of poverty, and so creating diversion programs and getting people to the services that they need, rather than prosecuting them is important.

Sandra Morgan 31:00
And that is so relevant to how our juvenile justice system is designed to be rehabilitative, not punitive. Finding ways to build that and strengthen that in our communities and our separate systems is going to help with the entire landscape for our youth who are so vulnerable to this. Kaitlyn, I just want to keep talking but our time is up, and I am so grateful for your work. This won’t be our last conversation. I’m going to follow you. Any links that you have, we’re going to share in our show notes, and I just cannot thank you enough for the work that you’re doing.

Kaitlyn Zedalis 32:57
Thank you so much, Sandie, and thank you again for having me.

Sandra Morgan 33:01
Thank you so much, Kaitlyn. Now, we’re inviting you to take the next step to go over to endinghumantrafficking.org. That’s where you can find resources that we’ve mentioned in this conversation, and so much more. The anti-human trafficking certificate program is here, and if you haven’t visited the site before, that’s a great first step. Become a subscriber and you’ll receive an email with the show notes when a new episode drops. Of course, I’ll be back in two weeks for our next conversation.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Kirsten Foot and Kenneth Andrew as the three discuss the role of Businesses Ending Slavery and Trafficking (BEST) in equipping businesses with the tools and resources necessary to end trafficking.

Kirsten FootKirsten Foot, PhD, is the CEO and Executive Director of Businesses Ending Slavery and Trafficking (BEST) which equips employers to counter human trafficking, and provides pathways to safe employment for trafficking survivors. BEST offers employers video based and in-person training services, consulting on anti-trafficking strategy, and advisement on communicating about human trafficking with employees, customers, vendors and the public. Kirsten Foot was also a guest on Episode #111 of the Ending Human Trafficking podcast.

Kenneth AndrewKenneth Andrew, is Vice President for global, small, medium, and channel partners with Microsoft Advertising, and his career has taken him to many parts of the world. He seeks to leverage his abilities to drive positive change in the business world and beyond. As a member of BEST Board of Directors since 2018, he helps businesses interrupt and prevent human trafficking.

Key Points* Businesses Ending Slavery and Trafficking (BEST) plays a critical role in equipping employers to counter human trafficking, providing training through both video-based and in-person training services. * BEST aims to prepare employers to not only identify and understand trafficking, but interrupt it safely. * Employers are also provided with communication strategies for discussing trafficking in the workplace. * Situational awareness is an integral part in the process of interrupting trafficking. BEST strives to encourage employers to take effective action and ask those who might be victimized the important questions that allow them to disclose what they might be facing.

Resources* Ensure Justice * BEST * Episode #111 – Collaborating Against Human Trafficking * Uyghur Anti- Human Trafficking Prevention Act * California Supply Chain Transparency Act * BEST Training Center

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:00
It’s time to register for the annual Ensure Justice Conference at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice. The conference is always the first Friday and Saturday of March, that way you can make it a recurring event in your calendar! 2024, It’s March first and second, we’re just a couple of months away. Our theme is Keeping Our Children Safe Online. We will explore the issues; What is happening online? What are the risks for our children at this stage of their development? What can we do as parents, caregivers, teachers, community members? Our speakers include many of our podcast expert guests, and we are partnering with our Orange County Department of Education. Check out our website for more info and don’t miss the early bird rates. Go on over to gcwj.org/ensurejustice. Right now, there is a virtual option for our global listeners, as well as special rates for college students. Join us to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference at Ensure Justice, March 1st and 2nd, 2024.

You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode #310: What’s the best way to equip business leaders? My name is Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. It is so great to have Kirsten and Kenneth from BEST with us today. Kirsten Foot, PhD, is the CEO and Executive Director of Businesses Ending Slavery and Trafficking (BEST) which equips employers to counter human trafficking, and provides pathways to safe employment for trafficking survivors. BEST offers employers video based and in-person training services, consulting on anti-trafficking strategy, and advisement on communicating about human trafficking with employees, customers, vendors and the public. She was also my guest on Episode #111 of our podcast. Her colleague Kenneth Andrew, is Vice President for global, small, medium, and channel partners with Microsoft Advertising, and his career has taken him to many parts of the world. He seeks to leverage his abilities to drive positive change in the business world and beyond. As a member of BEST Board of Directors since 2018, he helps businesses interrupt and prevent human trafficking. I am so glad to welcome both of you to the show today.

Kirsten Foot 3:46
Thank you, Sandie.

Kenneth Andrew 3:48
Glad to be here.

Sandra Morgan 3:49
Kirsten, it’s been quite a while since we’ve been together, but we used to hang out a lot, maybe not in person, but particularly online and on the phone. I especially remember when we recorded episode #111 because your amazing research and book on collaboration came out at that time, and I’m just curious how you moved from writing and research in the academic world, to being a nonprofit CEO.

Kirsten Foot 4:30
It’s a recent change, it’s one I’m still catching up in all different levels psychologically, but I am motivated to be leading BEST of all things, because BEST does what I have been advocating through my research for over 15 years now. BEST works across sectors, across the private sector, public sector, the nonprofit sector, to catalyze much more strategic, effective interaction between organizational leaders, against human trafficking. So after months of hearing about BEST’s search for a new CEO, literally three invitations in I realized, I really should consider applying, and so I did. Kenneth could tell you more of the story since he’s on the board, but I realized through a very rigorous interview process that BEST was incredibly well organized, and highly effective, and that I would really have joy in helping multiply its efforts and lead it in its new stage. I’m just four months in, but I’m loving it, and I see all kinds of potential for the kinds of things that BEST can do, and I want to help that happen.

Sandra Morgan 5:40
I’m eager to see the application of the principles in your book on collaboration, which we still use in our anti-human trafficking certificate courses here at Vanguard. So we appreciate your knowledge, your insight, and now we’re going to watch you as you lead in this new sphere, so congratulations.

Kirsten Foot 6:06
Wow, thank you.

Sandra Morgan 6:07
Kenneth, as a board member of BEST, you’ve been in this for a while, you also represent the business community in many ways. Can you give us a little better idea of the mission and vision of BEST?

Kenneth Andrew 6:28
Yeah, absolutely. First, I should also say how delighted we are as a board to have Kirsten on board really helping us lead through this next chapter, because this really is a pivotal moment for us, as this is one of the fastest kind of growing crimes we have in society today. So it was really important for us to find a leader that could kind of champion the cause, and really drive our mission forward. Really, when we think about our mission, BEST’s role is really to align and equip leaders to use the power of business to prevent human trafficking. So what that means is, how do we leverage the business community? How do we partner with them, train, enable, drive awareness, of this as a societal issue? And how do we equip them to be able to not just sort of observe or sort of understand the issue, but to be able to interrupt, and to do that in a safe way? That’s really what BEST is trying to do, is look at ways to equip the business community with the tools, and resources, and training to be able to identify, interrupt, and then take action to really support these victims.

Sandra Morgan 7:46
So why do you believe that businesses need to be proactive?

Kenneth Andrew 7:54
Look, fundamentally, human trafficking is an abuse of human rights, and it’s happening in many places hidden in plain sight sometimes, and business leaders have a number of options. They can ignore it, and therefore, potentially, unwittingly enable it. Or, they can aim to interrupt in a way that can lead to preventing it. I think businesses have that sort of responsibility to take action. I also think, sort of ignorance and complicity, even unintentional, could be costly to businesses. There’s financial costs, due to fines or lawsuits, of people who have been victims through their services, or product, or their business. There’s also revenue impact that could come from reputational harm or lost businesses. Imagine, do you want to stay at a hotel that you know, that has been somehow unwittingly involved in some form of human trafficking challenge or issue? Would that not question their security, their measures, their morality as a business, honestly? In a world of social media, and how information is so pervasive and so quickly shared and spread, businesses need to form a position on injustice and how they can manage and mitigate potentially negative sort of situations. I work at Microsoft and one of the reasons I work at Microsoft is I am proud of their mission, and I am proud of the social stance and position that Microsoft takes on a number of issues facing our society today. So integrity, social responsibility, equity, and the well being of employees and customers and clients, is a reason why people come to work at a company and it’s also the reason why they stay at a company. So I think it’s really important for businesses to show up as a leader, and encourage people to see that they have principles, and they have ethics, and they have very clear measures in place to prevent issues like this. So I think people want to align to organizational practices with stated values, they want to improve employee morale and loyalty, and by taking a stance and being very clear on their social responsibility area, I think is another reason why businesses should care.

Sandra Morgan 10:39
Well, I just wanted to jump in here because about a year and a half ago we had Ambassador John Richmond here, at Vanguard, and we had a business forum. He gave us sort of a look into the future of what was emerging, and this sense that the movement is beginning to place the onus on business leaders, you know, with the passage of the Uyghur Anti-Human Trafficking Prevention Act, now you’ve got guidelines that are legislated. Instead of investigators, law enforcement, department of labor, having to have all the burden on them, businesses have a burden of proof on them as well. So how do you see best intervening, or actually enhancing that transition within the movement? Maybe both of you could give an answer.

Kirsten Foot 11:47
Well, I’d say to that, that with the passage of the California Supply Chain Transparency Act,

Sandra Morgan 11:53
I love that yes, back to 2010.

Kirsten Foot 11:57
And the recent revision, right, that is strengthening that, states across the US and many other countries are recognizing, of course, the the original version of that act required a declaration of whatever a business was or wasn’t doing, but that is changing. With the act that you mentioned, Sandie, businesses are now increasingly going to be expected to take responsibility. I would say most business leaders, from my perspective, want to do the right thing, and BEST assumes good intent when businesses come to BEST with interest in and ideas about what can be done. There are a variety of ways that BEST can equip businesses to engage proactively, safely and effectively in countering human trafficking, and it begins with thinking about what a business’s overall strategy is going to be. So it is really not sufficient to just say, “Oh, we’re going to do a supply chain check through some third party vendor and just check a box.” And it is also not sufficient to say, “Well, we’re gonna pop and play this brief curriculum for our employees, and they’re going to watch it once and that’s it.” There really needs to be an overall organizational strategy of what is this organization’s risk, what are its opportunities? Basically, a SWOT analysis. What are our strengths, our weaknesses, our opportunities or threats in relation to human trafficking, and what will our organization strategy be, whether independently as a unique organization, or as part of an industry? Because increasing their industry level efforts that are underway, and I think the legislation is helping with that. Certainly the hotel industry, some other types of of industries, transit, there’s some really exciting things happening as industry leaders, not just individual businesses. Consider what our overall strategy needs to be. But that also then immediately calls into question, how are we going to communicate about this? Because training employees or equipping employees to recognize indicators of trafficking, all of which BEST does, all of that are are forms of communication. So again, Sandie, back to why did I leave a discipline of communication and academic to join BEST? Well, because countering human trafficking is about communicating about it, and business leaders really need help thinking through “How are we going to communicate about this in a constructive, effective, equitable way? How are we going to advance our core values as a business in how we communicate, regarding human trafficking? And how are we going to do that with employees in particular ways, with customers or vendors in other ways, and with the various aspects of public audiences that are listening to us, that are accessing our property, that are buying our goods or services?” Those are all external audiences for organizations for which communication needs to be carefully crafted. So one thing BEST does in the beginning point, helping business leaders plan a strategy and think through how they’re going to communicate in that strategy, to each of these different kinds of groups of people that are core to their business or external members of the public that are really important. For example, sex trafficking can be really difficult to talk about while in the work environment, because of taboos, because of sensationalism in the media, because of all different kinds of things, but other aspects of trafficking, labor, trafficking and exploitation that’s been historically grounded in a particular region of the world, or a particular type of work, type of industry that also can be very sensitive, very difficult to talk about, and BEST can help with a communication strategy, and some actual guidance on how to do that communicating. BEST also offers a really fantastic set of training opportunities for businesses, and I get to brag about it, because I didn’t build any of these. I’m stepping into it and helping improve them, and help get them out better. But BEST’s video trainings are a core piece of what it does, embedded in in-person, multi level trainings, whenever possible. Those video trainings themselves though, are really distinct in the field of trainings for businesses, because they’re story based. They’re first-person narrative based, they’ve drawn in multiple voices, diverse people that are experts in, are affected by human trafficking, sex trafficking, and labor trafficking in any industry and in specific industries, and that makes them really memorable and very impactful for the people listening to them. The purpose of all those training videos and the larger curriculum that goes around, and the kinds of in person events that BEST’s staff hold for businesses, to help train trainers, and answer questions, and help businesses advance beyond just introduction to human-trafficking, is all about equipping people in their workplace, to be able to identify indicators of trafficking behavior, not racial profiling, not gender profiling, but indicators of possible force, fraud, or coercion, as they may be encountering in the context of their work, and then know how to report that safely and effectively, to interrupt it with the intent that enough interruption is going to actually prevent it for that business, in that workplace. That’s the essence of what BEST does for businesses and it’s really, really impactful. There are awareness raising materials, there are other pieces of communication that all go around that, but I’m trying to convey the core of it.

Sandra Morgan 17:30
Right. So we’ll put a link directly to the part on your website, about “Train Your Staff,” I think that’s brilliant. I’ve heard you say safety, or safely, three times since we started this conversation. Why is that an important aspect of any kind of anti-human trafficking training?

Kirsten Foot 17:55
I’ll let Kenneth take a first point talking on that from his perspective within business, and then Kenneth, I’ll elaborate around that. But let’s hear what you have to say about those things in relation to to businesses being proactive about trafficking.

Kenneth Andrew 18:12
Yeah, I mean, a couple of things. So to my point around, how do you equip your staff to be able to deal with, to be able to observe, interrupt, and then take action, you have to do that in a way that it not only protects the brand, or the company, the business that you’re working for, but also that you are protecting the safety of that individual. So that person who is stepping in, if they see something happening, they see something that isn’t right, they have been trained upon this, BEST helps provide a very clear sort of set of next steps, in order to actually take action in a safe way for that employee, for that safe way for that business that they represent, but also the safe way for the victim as well. I think those are the three elements that we need to make sure of, is we often feel like we should jump into a situation and we feel we’re doing the best thing, but sometimes our actions have unintended consequences if we don’t follow the right steps and procedures, particularly in the sex trafficking space. There are people who are often controlling the victims. These people can be dangerous, these people can be armed, there can be all sorts of challenges and issues and if you as an employee step into that situation, you need to be equipped with the knowledge to know how to act. Safety is really really, really important.

Sandra Morgan 19:48
I recall being in a rideshare, recently, this last summer when I was traveling, and the driver listened to me and my colleague as we were debriefing on the conference we’d just spoken at, and he had so many questions. Safety was at the core of that, because we told him “Don’t put on your cape and become the hero.” So Kirsten, how do you intervene in that and what would you say to people who are gig drivers?

Kirsten Foot 20:32
Well, and not just gig drivers, but anyone interfacing with the public, who is witnessing a situation where there may be a controller presence. In BEST training we use the term “controller” to refer to that person who is perhaps controlling someone else for the purpose of exploiting them. What may be apparent to an employee of a rideshare, or for hire, or any other type of industry, is that they may see an instance where there’s behavior actions being taken that are indicators of exploitation unfolding right in front of them, things that are threats, or actual physical violence, or a really overwhelming surveillance or power dynamic. A number of other things, I’m not going to go into all these indicators, but when someone in the context of their work observes that, the first question that BEST trains them to ask is, “Is there a controller present?” and if there is, BEST’s practice is to not insert oneself in the situation, but get out of the situation as soon as possible to alert law enforcement with the best information possible of the who, what, when, where. What cars were involved, what locations were involved, and if possible, in the situation if it is possible to communicate directly with a potential victim, apart from the controller. An important fundamental starting point question is just “Are you okay?”, because the answer to the question, “Are you okay?”, if asked when a potential victim is alone, could be “Yes, I’m just fine.” In which case, there’s not much that the employee can do, but if there’s any answer like, “I feel afraid,” or, “I don’t want to go back,” or, “Please don’t drop me off there,” or anything else, then that opens up a number of other questions and other options for the employee to take action on. But it is really, really important for the safety of the employee and the potential victim, that there be a situational awareness regarding the presence or proximity of a controller, and that there’s a different process of action needed if a controller is present, versus if a controller is not. I will put the caveat here that if it appears to an employee that a minor is involved, that the person who might be being victimized might be a minor, that requires an immediate call to 911, as soon as it’s safe for the employee to do that, or somehow communicate to someone else to call 911. There’s a variety of ways that an employee can think through how would it be possible to get a hold of 911, with a minor involved, without endangering oneself as the employee or that minor. So these are some things that BEST gets into in more advanced training and in question answer sessions with employers, because it depends on the industry, on the type of workplace. Is someone in a vehicle and moving, are they stopped, are they in a store location? There’s lots of different scenarios there. But I hope that starts to give you an indication of the priority of safety for employees as they move from being bystanders because unfortunately, the evidence over decades here is that in many cases, human trafficking has played out under the watch of people at work, in various industries, just doing their job, not necessarily recognizing what they’re seeing, or if they recognize it, having no idea what to do, how to respond effectively and safely. That’s what BEST is trying to turn around and again, there’s a lot of different situational awareness components to that. But fundamentally, it’s about taking effective action in the moment, with someone who might be being victimized by asking them in private, “Are you okay?”, and of course, the follow up question, “Is there a need that I could help you with?”, if they express that need.

Sandra Morgan 24:25
Okay, and Kenneth, do you want to add anything there?

Kenneth Andrew 24:29
No, I think Kirsten covered the main points.

Sandra Morgan 24:33
Then let me go just a little deeper with this. You talked about an employee deciding what to do in the moment, and I know from way back when I first started working with women around safety issues and reducing violence against women, we taught them to be prepared. They had to practice what they were going to do. I think all of us girls, we all learn to walk with our keys between our fingers. Now we’ve got a fob, I don’t know what to do about that, but my understanding with your training is that this actually feeds in to having policies in place. When we operationalize our intent in a policy, that takes the onus off of the employee, because this is what my employer has laid out for me. I think that’s an important element and I see, Kenneth, you’re shaking your head yes. Do you want to comment and how you see that from a business perspective?

Kenneth Andrew 25:54
Yeah, I mean, I’m just reflecting because only last night, I took my standards of business conduct training at Microsoft here, which talks very much about the ethics of doing business, how you need to show up, and how we all have accountability as employees to live the values and brand of the business that we work for. We’re all representatives, and therefore, our actions matter, and they mean something. We do have to take actions, and so yes, I think by influencing policy and guidance, employee handbooks, all of that work makes a very clear statement to the employee. We expect you to uphold these values, and we expect you to take action, so I think it’s really important.

Sandra Morgan 26:42
So we mentioned sex trafficking, I want to address labor trafficking. More and more, we’re seeing unaccompanied minors that are in poultry processing factories, or hotel cleaning, or office business cleaning, and labor trafficking victims are often doing things that are legal, so you’re not going to interrupt it because it’s something that is a real job. Identifying people who aren’t happy in their job, I have to tell you, when I’m traveling, I don’t see a lot of hotel cleaning staff whistling, “Oh, I’m happy to be at work,” but that doesn’t mean that they’re trafficking victims. So how do we address interrupting labor trafficking from the business perspective?

Kirsten Foot 27:40
So there are a common set of indicators that can point to, or help us recognize, when we’re seeing instances of force, fraud, or deception, or coercion, playing out in worker interactions, right in front of us, and that’s true across industries, but it is the case that people engaging in work where they’re interfacing with the public, are more likely to encounter situations where they get to observe that firsthand. So there’s all kinds of stories, Sandie, as you know, of an individual who’s been compelled to work without pay, without freedom to move, finding a way to let somebody know and ask for help. But BEST training is helping employees notice that proactively and ask the question, “Are you okay?” So just one recent example from an organization BEST partners with, a transit employee was in a transit station, saw a person looking confused, bruised, and very distressed. They asked the question, “Are you okay?”, and the person said, “No, I have no idea where I am, how I got here, or what’s going to happen.” That led to a conversation in which the person disclosed exploitative labor over many weeks, had left them completely unsure of everything, hungry, exhausted, no idea where they are, and the transit worker knew enough to report that well, which connected the person with services in the language that’s their home language, and gave them access to a whole bunch of resources to help them find a path out of that exploitation. Thanks to that transit worker who recognized the signs of distress that could have indicated a lot of things, but could also have indicated, in fact did indicate labor trafficking, and knew what to do to respond and connect that person with the services that they needed to find their way out of the exploitation and literally out of that transit station, into a safe place.

Oh my goodness, and that story brings us back to why. When you who were introducing the mission and vision. Kenneth, I loved that you landed on a victim centered approach. That’s why we’re doing this, because people do not deserve to be exploited or become slaves. I wish we had more time, we’re going to have to do this again, Kirsten, I love this new direction in your leadership. Kenneth, it is a delight to meet you, and as we wind up, I want our listeners to go to the show notes, and click on the link, and look around yourself. Then I’m going to give you each 30 seconds for your parting words, and Kenneth, you get to go first.

Kenneth Andrew 29:56
Well, thank you, and thank you to your listeners, because by listening to this, you’re also increasing your awareness and you can potentially be that person that steps in to interrupt and intervene, and be that voice. What we hear most often from victims is “People think I’m invisible,” and that moment of connection with another human is so important. Looking at someone who you can see is clearly suffering and saying, “Are you okay?” matters, it really, really matters. That’s our mission, BEST’s goal is to enable you all and employees of businesses to be able to observe, interrupt, and take action safely.

Kirsten Foot 31:30
So I will add to this, that BEST exists to equip businesses to not just comply with whatever regulation their industry faces, or whatever a minimum standard is, but to actually lead and shine in their industry, as a leader, in doing the right thing for the right reasons, and to reap all the benefits of that. To reduce their employee turnover, increase their employee loyalty, to reduce their risk of liability, and to do it because it’s the right thing to do and this is a moment for businesses to differentiate themselves as leaders in a way that is going to accrue all kinds of benefit to them, and they’re doing the right thing as businesses within their sector, as well as to the members of their local community and their international community that matter to them. We believe business leaders want to act with integrity and do the right thing, and we want to equip them to do that. There’s all kinds of great examples of business leaders already doing that, and there’s room for many more. So BEST wants to be available to any business leader that wants to help its organization lead in this area.

Sandra Morgan 32:41
I’m delighted to have had you both here today and I’m looking forward to following you. I believe that this is a concrete approach to more than awareness for businesses, who are literally poised in the workplace where rrafficking victims are often, as Kenneth said, often feel invisible. So thank you both for coming and I will hope to have you back. Thanks.

Kenneth Andrew 33:17
Thank you so much.

Kirsten Foot 33:19
Thank you, Sandie.

Sandra Morgan 33:20
I’m so grateful that Kirsten and Kenneth joined us for this conversation. There were so many points that made me think of questions people have asked me about how business leaders can become part of the solution, how they can join the movement in meaningful ways, not just writing a check. So if you are like me, and you think of someone, please invite them to join our community by sharing this podcast episode, either through an email or on your social media. Recently, several of our community of listeners have posted their favorite episodes on their social media so their community can also learn with us, from the experts and field practitioners that are our guests on this podcast. If you’re new here, go on over to endinghumantrafficking.org. You can find resources, links to things mentioned in this conversation, and learn about our anti-human trafficking certificate program here at Vanguard University. Please join us again in two weeks. See you then.

View Details

Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Panida Rzonca as the two discuss the importance of organizations who provide services to those of different cultures, specifically the Asian Pacific Islander community.

Panida RzoncaPanida has been working with Thai victims of human trafficking at Thai CDC since 2007. Panida oversees and provides all direct social and legal services at Thai CDC. Panida’s experience includes clerking at the Legal Aid Foundation of Los Angeles (LAFLA) where she worked with both clients of labor and sex trafficking. Currently, Panida is primarily assisting victims of sex trafficking from what may be the largest Thai sex trafficking enterprise to date. She provides counsel to victims who are called upon to be federal witnesses, provides immigration legal services and also case manages comprehensive social services including reporting trafficking cases to law enforcement and assisting victims in navigating the legal system to obtain immigration status, restitution, and ultimately, justice. In addition to her work in anti-human trafficking, Panida has been involved with both labor and housing rights advocacy. She is dedicated to workers’ rights advocacy within the Thai community working on public awareness campaigns and direct services to help workers navigate governmental agencies for wage and fair labor standard claims. Panida is a HUD certified housing counselor, providing counseling to Thais with limited English proficiency that are in danger of losing their homes. Panida is determined to continue assisting the underserved through the Slavery Eradication and Rights Initiative (SERI) Project campaign to raise awareness of the Anti-Human Trafficking Program at Thai CDC. Panida is also a member of the California State Bar Access to Justice Commission and the 2018 President of the Thai American Bar Association. Panida finished her J.D. at Southwestern School of Law and her B.A. in Political Science with a focus on International Relations at the University of California at San Diego.

Key Points* The Thai Community Development Center is a community economic development organization that focuses on increasing economic mobility among Thais and other ethnic minorities in the greater Los Angeles area. * With a grant from the Department of Justice Office of Victims of Crime, the Asian Pacific Islander Human Trafficking Task Force, Thai Community Development Center, and other sister agencies, are able to provide services in several Asian languages. * The Asian Pacific Islander Human Trafficking task force does provides technical assistance through a variety of training, to its sister organizations, ensuring that they are all equipped to properly serve victims of sex and labor trafficking. * When aiding victims of different cultures, it is important to understand the culture’s dynamics and language to better serve the victim.

Resources* Asian Pacific Island Human Trafficking Task Force * Thai Community Development Center * California Access to Justice Commission * Asian Pacific Islander Equity Alliance * Office for Victims of Crime * Asian Americans Advancing Justice * Asian Pacific AIDS Intervention Team * Coalition to Abolish Slavery and Trafficking * Korean-American Family Services * Legal Aid Foundation of Los Angeles * Pacific-Asian Counseling Services * South-Asian Network

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:00
You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode #309: The Asian Pacific Island Human Trafficking Task Force, with Panida Rzonca.

Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Our guest today is Panida, the directing attorney at the Thai Community Development Center where she manages the delivery of legal and social services to human trafficking victims, which includes immigration relief, civil remedies, victim benefits, restitution, and ultimately, justice. She is co-chair of the Asian Pacific Islander Human Trafficking Task Force and she is commissioner on the California Access to Justice Commission. I have been in the same circles with Panida since I came to Orange County back in 2004, but her work here started 25 years ago. So would you like to tell us a little bit, Panida, about your experience with the emergence of the Thai Community Development Center?

Panida Rzonca 1:51
Sure, just let me backtrack a little bit because my work at the Thai Community Development Center actually started in 2007, and my executive director, the founder of Thai CDC, Chanchanit Martorell, was the one who started Thai CDC and started the anti trafficking work that we’re doing at Thai CDC now, just to make that clear.

Sandra Morgan 1:51
Okay, that’s good. That’s good. I’m so glad you’re here, because then we’re gonna get all this stuff just right.

Panida Rzonca 2:23
Sure. So the Thai Community Development Center is a community economic development organization that focuses on increasing economic mobility among Thais and other ethnic minorities in the greater Los Angeles area. Now, because we have such a broad base mission, we’ve been able to not only build affordable housing, and provide small business counseling, and books on public benefits, and run certified farmers markets, and start social enterprises, but we’re also able to reach out to the most vulnerable in our community, which is the community of victims that we serve, both labor and sex trafficking.

Sandra Morgan 3:10
I’ve seen Thai CDC, the recipient of multiple awards. The last time I remember particularly, was when the mayor of the city of El Monte presented Thai CDC with a commendation, recognizing the work to liberate 72 Thai garment workers back in 1995. We didn’t even have the Trafficking Victims Protection Act, and here were 72 Thai workers hidden away in a makeshift garment factory that enslaved them. How do you see that as part of your development story? Because you didn’t have the language of anti human trafficking, and now we have lots and lots and lots of anti human trafficking efforts, but Thai CDC is a little different, because when it started, it was already working on solutions to the economic challenges. Can you address a little bit about how that particular case impacted?

Panida Rzonca 4:28
Well, El Monte was really the first case of transnational human trafficking at that time, because we didn’t have TVPA or people really being acquainted with modern day slavery, since the abolition of slavery, right? So everything was quite new, and even though we had this coalition because of other worker exploitation and other issues that happened in the community, I think El Monte really woke up the world to being concerned that modern day slavery existed at all. With El Monte it was so clear that those 72 Thai people were working in conditions of slavery, in that makeshift garment factory in El Monte, behind barbed wire, under 24/7 armed surveillance, threats of retaliation should they escape, and because of Thai CDC’s place in working with other organizations, it was kind of in a great position to form a coalition of civil worker, immigrant rights organizations to advocate for the rights of these workers. In the beginning, they weren’t seen as victims, they were actually held in immigration detention, and we had to free them.

Sandra Morgan 6:00
What? Wait a minute, wait a minute, I’ve only ever heard the glorious part of the story.

Panida Rzonca 6:06
Right. So Thai CDC, we’re not a translation organization, we’re advocates. When Chanchanit was there with the federal authorities, and with the DOL, and the other folks that advocate also for immigration relief, but at that time, as you said, there was no TVPA, no T-visa, so what happened was we were trying to advocate for some kind of relief. Because they didn’t have immigration status, even though we received some kind of assurance that those workers would be protected, they actually were taken to immigration detention and Thai CDC, along with a coalition of other organizations, had to protest outside of the immigration detention centers for their release.

Sandra Morgan 7:03
Oh my goodness, wow. And now every year, they have a big anniversary celebration, and I’ve heard many of the survivors tell their stories. They inspire us to look for those who are hidden away, like this garment factory was, and they blow up some of the myths that people have. I know someone said to me, “Well, the label says ‘Made in the USA,’ so it’s slave-free.” That may not actually be true.

Panida Rzonca 7:39
Right, you don’t really know, even if it’s made in the USA, because we view labor exploitation on a spectrum, right? So it’s very common for garment workers to be paid a piece rate, and that piece rate doesn’t necessarily add up to what minimum wage would be calculated at if those workers were paid by the hour. So many, many labor claims are based on calculating how much was actually made, versus how much they should be making based on minimum wage. We find folks who are facing worker exploitation at minimal levels, all the way up to what would be considered slave-like conditions where they’re forced to stay, whether it’s because of psychological coercion or otherwise, debt bondage, you name it.

Sandra Morgan 8:34
Okay, so let’s take a look at the emergence of the Asian Pacific Islander Human Trafficking Task Force. When did that emerge and what is the significance to our movement as a whole?

Panida Rzonca 8:52
So the Asian Pacific Islander Human Trafficking Task Force came together under the organization, Asian American Pacific Islander Equity Alliance, which is formerly known as the Asian Pacific Planning Council, that had been around since the 1970s. In this umbrella organization, included the Thai CDC and other nonprofit API organizations. What happened was around 2015, we started realizing that API communities were being adversely impacted by human trafficking, and we wanted to make sure that our sister agencies were also prepared to receive those victims and provide them with appropriate services, because many of the organizations, they might train to assist victims of domestic violence or sexual assault, but not necessarily trafficked victims. In 2016 through 2020, we came together and applied for funding from the Department of Justice Office of Victims of Crime, which we received to provide specialized services, and our cohort of organizations were able to provide the case managements, the legal services, as well as mental health therapy in multiple Asian languages. So our our lead organization was actually Thai CDC and we partnered with Asian Americans Advancing Justice, and Asian Pacific AIDS Intervention Team, Coalition to Abolish Slavery and Trafficking, Korean American Family Services, Legal Aid Foundation of Los Angeles, Pacific Asian Counseling Services, South Asian Network, and by the way Coalition to Abolish Slavery and Trafficking was born out of the needs of the victims from the El Monte case, and so with CAST, we’re able to figure out how to make sure that all the multifaceted needs of trafficked victims, not just Thai, but all kinds of national and domestic victims, their needs could be addressed, and kind of made that a model to ensure that other organizations that need to assist victims could look to a technical assistance provider. So now CAST is also a TA provider, to make sure that other organizations are trained up.

Sandra Morgan 11:34
Okay, so that technical assistance?

Panida Rzonca 11:37
Yes! So API Human Trafficking Task Force doesn’t actually receive technical assistance funding, but we do provide technical assistance because we want to ensure that these smaller, more grassroots organizations that have the cultural and linguistic competencies, are funded to provide the services that are necessary.

Sandra Morgan 12:00
Oh, okay. So expand a little bit on what it means for you to provide technical assistance, it doesn’t mean you’re setting up computers, networks.

Panida Rzonca 12:11
No, it does not. So what we do is we talk to our sister community based organizations, about the needs of the victims and how they can be addressed. Whether it’s in house, or referrals, but also train them on human trafficking, and provide HT 101 trainings, both as a trainee and trainer so that their communities can, again, receive it so they could understand the key flags and myths about human trafficking, so that more cases are identified in their communities, because our belief is really that trafficking is so rampant, but no one is identifying and no one’s saying anything about it, because they’ve come to accept it.

Sandra Morgan 13:02
So talk about how, as a Technical Assistant, you’re improving the ability to identify possible victims.

Panida Rzonca 13:12
As our communities are more informed about what human trafficking is under the laws in the United States, under TVPA and others, they’re able to call the people they need to call, whether it’s going to be CAST or the hotline, or even called Thai CDC so that we could help them report to law enforcement. Our identification numbers have gone up, and also our ability to serve those clients both in the field, during potential operations with law enforcement, as well as referred to our organizations for those services, in their language, with people who know their culture. The other problem is that when the national victims from API communities get referred elsewhere, a lot of times they fall between the gaps because of language and culture barriers.

Sandra Morgan 14:08
Okay, so the whole thing about culture and language. I think that’s a piece that in the bigger narrative that we hear with federal task forces, it often gets left out. We swoop in, we’re going to do a rescue, and then because we do have to prove force, fraud, or coercion, unless we are recovering a child being sold for commercial sex, we have to be able to get the information for that force, fraud, or coercion, and if you don’t speak the language or understand the culture, that is a huge challenge. Can you help us understand how this is part of what you do?

Panida Rzonca 15:03
With any operation, we make sure, first of all, that all of our folks are trained, because even though you get someone who might be bilingual and speak the language that you need, it doesn’t mean that they actually understand what’s going on, and how to translate those key terms that we need, having to do with force, fraud, and coercion, and human trafficking. So it’s not enough, honestly, to have someone that speaks the language. I’ve actually had translators on the line before that are just simply not translating correctly, but no one knows because they don’t speak that language, and if there aren’t advocates present to flag that, it could be detrimental to the case. I can point to an example where I was at an immigration detention center, and a federal investigator had a language, I don’t remember what language service it was, but a language service provider, and once the interpreter got on the line and started interpreting, my client looked at me and said, “Are they speaking Thai?,” and I’m looking at her and I was like, “I don’t think they’re speaking Thai,” and they just kept going. Finally, we had to stop and say, “Hey, this isn’t Thai,” but that investigator would never have known and might have just thought that the victim was not being forthcoming or cooperating, which could be really bad, right? So it didn’t even stop there. On that day, they got another translator on the line, another interpreter on the line, and when they were translating, at least they spoke Thai, but this was a person that spoke multiple Southeast Asian languages and just had Thai as another language on their resume. Even though they could translate, they actually didn’t know how to count in Thai, because we have specific words for thousand, ten thousand, one hundred thousand, and so on. I was just like, “What the heck? That’s not what she said. She said she was sold for x amount.” It’s just really difficult to have to keep stopping and going, and also re-traumatizing the victims. So you know, language is one thing, but also culture, right? There’s a lot of signaling that goes on in terms of body language. If you don’t understand, like in a lot of Asian cultures, if you don’t look someone directly in the eye, or a lot of folks that I’ve worked with, victims that I’ve worked with, will kind of look away and not look directly in the eye. In the Western world, you see that as some kind of disrespect, like you’re not paying attention, but for Asians, that is a sign of respect because they don’t want to be confrontational. So there’s a lot going on behind the scenes and just having any kind of law enforcement, it’s very intimidating. Many, many victims will just kind of nod and go along with whatever, but even though they’re nodding, it doesn’t mean they’re saying yes as an affirmative response. It’s really, “I’m trying to do whatever you need me to do.”

Sandra Morgan 18:28
So that cultural understanding is going to make the difference between a victim getting the services that they need or not, because if we can’t identify and get the right qualifications, if you will, for services, then they are outside the ability of us, often, to provide those resources.

Panida Rzonca 19:00
Absolutely, and that comfort level is paramount, because sometimes, especially with sex trafficking, it’s so shameful that they don’t want to come forward, and many will deny and decline services, and if they’re not identified properly, especially with an untrained interpreter, that’s really the end of the case and that person will not get services. Also in different communities, I’ve had interpreters that are talking down to my victims, because they do understand that this is human trafficking, but because they might be from a different social class, they might speak differently to the victim, and so the victim will feel more closed. So you have to see and understand those nuances within every community.

Sandra Morgan 19:52
So culturally responsive programming. How do you help one of these smaller, more grassroots organizations implement this in their on the ground, anti-trafficking work?

Panida Rzonca 20:11
So we make sure that those on the ground activities are in conjunction with community based organizations that understand the community, where they’re coming from, and the mindset and motivation. Because right now, what we’re seeing is, even though the victims may not understand that they are victims, and are not self identifying as victims, it takes a relationship to not just a person that understands the language, but a relationship that only the community will understand why they’re making certain decisions. Sometimes when that happens and comes into play, in conjunction with real information and not potential misinformation that’s also in the community, I think that’s where we come into play. Because if they don’t understand that their employers or traffickers, who might be from the same community as well, have been giving them bad information, or have been making false promises, because they don’t understand the laws in the United States. They don’t understand that their traffickers promised them a green card, but it’s not possible and they remain undocumented. Or they’re getting themselves into an asylum scam.

Sandra Morgan 21:39
Wait, back up just a second, because that is an area that has been in different conversations out in my community, and here’s the statement. Listeners air quotes here, somebody says to me, “Well, they just came here to get asylum.” So when I hear from you that they may end up being lured into an asylum scam, what is an asylum scam?

Panida Rzonca 22:12
Well, an asylum scam is an asylum petition or filing, where there is no basis for the requested asylum, but they know that once it is filed, asylum seekers actually receive a work permit while they’re waiting. Many times, employers and traffickers are using this system to obtain work permits to lure those workers to stay in the United States so that they can work, while promising them green cards. But what the workers don’t understand is how these work permits are being had.

Sandra Morgan 22:57
Okay, okay. That falls under the elements of human trafficking as fraud.

Panida Rzonca 23:05
Yes.

Sandra Morgan 23:06
But the victim may actually then be accused of perpetrating that fraud.

Panida Rzonca 23:13
Right.

Sandra Morgan 23:14
That’s not fair.

Panida Rzonca 23:16
It’s not fair, but it happens. Sometimes the victims have no contact with the attorneys that are filing the paperwork because the employers have their passports, give the attorneys all the information, and are just kind of proceeding without them, until something happens where they either no longer have a work permit, or they don’t understand why they don’t have their green card, or something else like some kind of operation. Then, they can start asking questions to someone that is willing to help them like the community based organizations that understand what’s going on.

Sandra Morgan 23:59
So my last question I want to address is how do people outside of our geographical region, replicate what you’re doing or access the resources, particularly the technical assistance? Because we have listeners, Penida, in 148 countries, and I think these principles are transferable.

Panida Rzonca 24:26
Thai Community Development Center and the API Human Trafficking Task Force not only trains sister community based organizations, but we also train law enforcement, because we need law enforcement to also be understanding of what cultures they’re stepping into, once they go to that location. It’s really on both sides, where everyone is there knowing what population is their target population of victims, and how to meet their needs. I really think that because in the United States, we have so many ethnic enclaves, you heard about Chinatown, in LA we have Thai town, but every ethnic enclave has some kind of community support system, and sometimes it’s formalized in the form of a nonprofit organization that provides services, but sometimes it’s not formalized. It’s really looking to these community leaders in how they would be able to help others that would fall as victims to human trafficking. Sometimes I’m outside of the formal system too, because I can’t find enough beds or shelters, so I’ll turn to the local temple and ask them, “Are there any beds available?” It’s the same with churches, so there are other community resources for people from that community in a time of need. That’s kind of how we start because we weren’t funded initially, but we have so many cases, case after case of both sex and labor trafficking in large groups, because Thai people are actually more vulnerable and more impacted by human trafficking. So we look everywhere to find out where we can get those resources and bring them together, and make sure that we can kind of cross train on who is providing what services so that there is an effective referral mechanism.

Sandra Morgan 26:32
So you can easily understand, if you’re listening to Panida, how she was a hero as a trailblazer in this area of culturally responsive programming, and spreading that to others. When I was co-chair of the Public-Private Partnership Advisory Council, and we were part of the President’s Interagency Human Trafficking Task Force, I was so pleased to see in 2021, that she received the Award for Extraordinary Efforts to Combat Trafficking in Persons. When I think about what they’re doing now, and looking at the future, I want to wrap up this interview with asking you Panida, what do you see that we need to do next?

Panida Rzonca 27:36
I’m just going to go back one second and say, the award was conferred on the Thai Community Development Center, and it’s not an individual award. It’s based on all of the cases that we’ve worked on because not only did we start with El Monte in 1995, but we continued to work on major group cases that involve a lot of federal agencies, and to this day, because of those relationships that we have, we’re able to pursue more access to remedies and relief for the victims that we encounter.

Sandra Morgan 28:09
Absolutely.

Panida Rzonca 28:09
Going forward, I would really like to see more of the relationships with community based organizations that cater to ethnic enclaves, no matter where they are. Sometimes I do work out of state, and I realize that everywhere you go, there are organizations, and some are more suited than others to be able to receive victims of trafficking, but they’re actually not funded. Many of the Human Trafficking Task Force Grants, they’re partnering with mainstream organizations, and I see a lot of organizations that focus on sex trafficking and not necessarily labor trafficking. But to ealize that there is a lot of worker exploitation going on in the US, and how we could spread the information to make sure that they understand what is exploitation and when that becomes human trafficking, and how we can help them better by going into the communities so that we understand when they will identify and be able to receive resources, because right now, I think a lot of victims are not coming forward.

Sandra Morgan 29:24
I am very hopeful that exactly what you said is the direction that we’re going. More and more people are aware that there are resources, and the idea that we just have to go and rescue and get people out of a geographical location, isn’t enough. We actually have to pull them into a safe community with the kind of resources that they need to thrive, and that they deserve as human beings. I love that you’re an attorney Panida, and I hope that many of my students will start following your work. We’ll put your links to the website in the show notes, and anything else that we’ve mentioned here. Last word from you.

Panida Rzonca 30:23
Thank you so much for having me as a guest on your program today. I certainly hope that your students would like to become more involved, we would definitely welcome student volunteers, especially if they would like to be trained to translate, and even legal interns because we always have more cases than we can handle.

Sandra Morgan 30:47
Ooh, legal interns, that sounds like fun. Do you have an age limit for that? I might sign up.

Panida Rzonca 30:53
We do not have an age limit. Maybe we actually do have an age limit, you have to be an adult.

Sandra Morgan 30:59
Oh, okay. Okay. All right. We just love the work that you’re doing and how you model so much justice in our community, along with the cultural respect for everybody, not just one particular group. We appreciate you a lot. I also want to thank our listening community for sharing your favorite episodes with your friends and colleagues. This week, more than any other time. I’ve had so many social media dms and comments, “I just shared this podcast with my friends.” So if this is your first time listening because somebody shared with you, please go to endinghumantrafficking.org. You can find all of our resources that we just mentioned in this conversation and so much more. We hope that you will become a subscriber and join us every two weeks for our next conversation.

View Details

Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Melissa Yao and Alexis Byers as the three discuss the role of technology in connecting survivors to services.

Melissa YaoMelissa Yao is the Executive Director of the National Trafficking Sheltered Alliance, a network of service providers committed to enhancing services and increasing access to care for survivors of human trafficking, and sexual exploitation. She was a guest on Episode #220 of the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast.

Alexis ByersAlexis Byers is the referral program manager at the National Trafficking Sheltered Alliance. She graduated from college in 2021, with a degree in political science, and a minor in security and Conflict Studies, and now she’s working on a master’s in Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness.

Key Points* Technology has brought about opportunities to improve the accessibility of resources for survivors. National Trafficking Sheltered Alliance has created a three pillar approach to make a difference in the accessibility of survivor services. * NTSA’s three pillar approach begins with membership, providing the public with a vast range of resources. Within the three pillar approach is a referral system and accreditation program that ensures the best quality of service and standards of care. * The TIRA app (Trafficking Interruption Resource Agent) allows survivors to filter their searches for services with their own needs and preferences, giving them a voice in their own journey. * When a referral form is filled out, within 24 hours of the business week, it is sent out to programs that match the survivor’s preferences directly. However, there is emergency placement available through NTSA’s partnership with Safe Shelter Collaborative. * When placements are not the right fit, survivors blame themselves, often causing a cycle of returning to unsafe environments. NTSA aims to change this cycle by including survivors in the decision-making of their life.

Resources* National Trafficking Sheltered Alliance * #220 – National trafficking Sheltered Alliance: What is it and why do we need it? * NTSA Accreditation * TIRA (Trafficking Interruption Resource Agent) * REST (Real Escape from the Sex Trade) * Alliance Referral System * Send a Referral

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:00
You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode #308: Streamlining Connection to Survivor Services With Technology.

Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan, and I’m your host. This is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I’m excited to welcome Melissa Yao from the National Trafficking Sheltered Alliance. She was a guest on episode #220. We’ll put that episode link in the show notes, but if you’re looking for it right now, because you want to listen to it before this episode, then just look for #220. Melissa is the Executive Director of the National Trafficking Sheltered Alliance, a network of service providers committed to enhancing services and increasing access to care for survivors of human trafficking, and sexual exploitation. I want to emphasize ‘increasing access’ because that is what really contributes to empowerment. I’m also excited that Melissa brought a colleague with her, Alexis Byers. Alexis is the referral program manager at the Alliance. She graduated from college in 2021, with a degree in political science, and a minor in security and Conflict Studies, and now she’s working on a master’s in Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness. I want to actually emphasize my welcome and excitement about having you here, Alexis, because I believe it’s important for young people, just finishing college, to understand how quickly they can use their expertise to make a difference. So you’re both welcome and I’m glad you’re here.

Melissa Yao 2:47
Well we are thrilled to be here, Dr. Morgan, we’re very excited to share some success that we’ve seen in five years of facilitating a referral system throughout the US, in hopes that it can inspire others to find ways to help survivors overcome their trauma by finding the right place for them to recover. It’s all that we focus on, and we’re thrilled to be able to share some successes with your audience.

Alexis Byers 3:18
Thank you so much for having us. I completely agree that it’s so important to know that the minute that you do graduate from college, you do have the ability to kind of make a change almost immediately using the skills that you learned through school.

Sandra Morgan 3:33
That’s so great. Okay, so I’m excited to talk about how technology is improving access to resources. Especially because so much of the conversation lately has been about the harms of technology, but technology, the other side of the coin, brings amazing opportunity. So as the response to human trafficking here increases, the need for service providers to collaborate and stay connected is more important than ever. So let’s start, Melissa with some of the principles of NTSA. Tell us how you have basically developed three pathways to make a difference.

Melissa Yao 4:28
Great question, Dr. Morgan. I served in direct service with survivors for over seven years, and much like many of my colleagues listening to this podcast, became very disheartened and discouraged with the number of survivors that as they’re working towards overcoming their trauma, because the program wasn’t the best fit for them, often left and went back into the trafficking situation. I couldn’t help, years ago, think ‘What if they had been in a program that was a better fit?’ I can’t help but think of when you go to the Cheesecake Factory, let’s say you’re craving a burger, and you’ve got the Cheesecake Factory menu, and it is like a book. There’s so many options and it becomes overwhelming. We go there and we kind of default to maybe the first few things on the menu, when really, there might be some great hidden gems. But when you go to Five Guys, you know what you’re getting. Okay, Dr. Morgan, you’re in California, maybe I should have said In-n-Out? For those of you that haven’t had it, there’s a secret menu that I highly recommend.

Sandra Morgan 5:36
Actually, on the streets of Athens, Greece, when you go to a souvlaki place, you’ve got three choices. That’s it.

Melissa Yao 5:45
Yes. I wanted to move away from defaulting to asking agencies, “Do you have a bed?” and they offered so much more than just the bed. Some of these agencies are the Cheesecake Factory, they offer a holistic approach, and for some survivors, that’s what they need. They need high accountability, high structure, 24-hour supervision, they really need that all encompassing experience to help them overcome. For others, they just need a burger, and all of these extras are simply overwhelming to them. What we’ve tried to do is shift the question from, “Do you have a bed?,” back to the survivor themselves asking, “What are you looking for, to help you overcome your trauma?” With a database of over 120 agencies, we’re able to give them that choice. We have a three pillar approach. One is our membership, almost like a trade association, and anybody across the globe, you’re welcome to look into it. We have resources on trauma informed care training, deescalation, how do you serve survivors well? We even have information on marketing, and accounting, and all of those things. On top of that, because of the network, we’re able to facilitate this referral system, and to date, in the past five years, we’ve facilitated over 2000 referrals. We couldn’t be more excited about that. Lastly, what we wanted to ensure is that when we were partnering with these agencies, they were offering quality service. We created standards of care, along with an accreditation program for them to go through to ensure that they are offering the best services that they possibly can.

Sandra Morgan 7:36
My favorite part of this model, as I’ve watched the industry expand and mature, is that element of accountability and that accreditation, It gives me a lot of confidence when I refer someone through the Alliance.

Melissa Yao 7:59
For sure, Dr. Morgan! But can I tell you my favorite part of the standards of care and accreditation?

Sandra Morgan 8:06
Oh?

Melissa Yao 8:07
We get calls at least once, oftentimes twice a month, with a complaint about an agency and how they’re serving the survivor. And most of the time, that complaint is coming from a survivor themselves. What I love so much about that is we’ve now become a place where survivors feel like they can have a voice in their recovery, they can have a voice in when they’ve experienced hurt or trauma. Because this is coming from a survivor, often, and Dr. Morgan I’m confident to say often, when we follow up with these agencies, when we send them our standards of care to talk about why the hurt and the harm was caused, we see a transformation in the services they’re offered. I’ll give you an example. We had an agency that we got formal complaints from survivors because the agency was using their stories, their images, and who they were in their marketing, and their social media, in their fundraising efforts, and these survivors felt so betrayed. They weren’t even part of the program anymore and the agency was still profiting from their story. Where could they report that to? There’s nowhere to report that so they reached out to us. We had a call with the agency, and they humbly apologized. They acknowledged that it was actually former leadership, that these new leaders had only been in place for two or three months, they had a whole new board. We sent them our standards of care on ethical story telling, on media and survivors, and they were able to present that to their board to implement those policies as they move forward to offer much better services for those survivors.

Sandra Morgan 9:51
So anyone listening anywhere, can ask you for those standards of care?

Melissa Yao 9:58
Yes, it’s right on our website. Please feel free to utilize it.

Sandra Morgan 10:01
All right, we’ll put that link in the show notes. This is a great place to transition from the survivor voice, the survivor input on this, that’s significant in the process. We all know that if someone makes us, for instance, go on a diet to lose a few kilos, we would like to have some control. We don’t want things to happen to us. So in order to even amplify that voice, and empower survivors, I’m really excited about the new app. We’re gonna go over to you, Alexis, and will you tell us what this new exciting tool is?

Alexis Byers 10:50
Yes, of course. The app that we’ve been working on is called TIRA. This is an app that will actually transform our referral system from using a form directly on the website and using me to do all of the filtering and finding of programs, and it’ll all be within this app. So survivors themselves, friends and family, advocates, law enforcement, the list goes on and on, are able to actually go into this app, fill out basically all the information of both their needs and their preferences, right?Because that’s what’s so important, is that autonomy of survivors, and we want to promote the autonomy and allow them to feel seen and heard, and that’s what this app is about. It’s by showing them exactly what is available throughout the country, and allowing them to decide where the next part of their journey begins, and continues on.

Sandra Morgan 11:46
I love that. For me, because I’ve been in this so long, I know we’ve dreamed about this kind of app, and we’ve waited. We wanted it to be like ordering groceries online, and it feels that way when you talk about it. Can you actually give me a better understanding of the full title of TIRA? It says Trafficking Interruption Resource Agent. How did you come up with that name?

Melissa Yao 12:19
Oh, actually, we partnered with REST based out of Seattle, Washington, they are a direct service provider right in the heart of the city, Amanda Hightower, who is a brilliant anti-trafficking leader, along with Microsoft and people that just have brilliant marketing brains came up with it, and we’re so excited to get to implement it. I cannot take any credit, I’m not that creative, but I personally think it’s brilliant. What I love, and Dr. Morgan, you alluded to this, we’ve been waiting so long for this, because it’s almost like survivors now have a customizable Airbnb experience. And for those of you listening that have ever utilized Airbnb, and it’s a global app, so many of you probably have, what you’re able to do is you choose what you want to filter through. What happens when you have too many filters? Nothing shows up, so then you as the user get to choose which filters you’re willing to compromise on, to still have the experience you’re looking for. So whether it’s your budget, whether it’s the number of bedrooms, whether you can bring your dog, you prioritize what your filters are to ensure you have the number of options available, and survivors are gonna get to do that, Dr. Morgan. They’re gonna get to decide. Do they filter out if they bring their emotional support animal, they bring their children, they are on addiction medication, they are not a biological female? They can filter all of that, they can choose if they want to be in downtown New York City, or Birmingham, Alabama, because it’s up to them, and I love that they get that choice.

Sandra Morgan 14:01
Okay, so Alexis, what does the word interruption mean, in this?

Alexis Byers 14:07
When we’re talking about interruption, when a survivor is in the life, this is their experience, and this is the trauma that they’re going through. When we are talking about interruption, we’re actually interrupting that process of the things that they’re going through, the trauma they are going through, we’re interrupting it, and we’re pivoting, right? So we’re going to bring them to a place of healing, and their ability to actually say that they are going to go into a program, they want to go into a program, and that’s the next part of their journey.

Sandra Morgan 14:44
Wow. So do you think that this will change how many times survivors end up in multiple placements? And by that I’m thinking about how many times I’ve been part of placing someone into a circumstance, it wasn’t a good fit, now we have to move, there’s disappointment on both sides, there’s lost time, resources, maybe even new trauma from that. So my question is about how this technology may contribute to avoiding further complexity.

Alexis Byers 15:34
I would say that when we’re talking about a placement that might not fit completely, that is an inevitable type of situation that we can’t stop completely. However, when a survivor has the ability to actually put in what they’re looking for in a program, as well as put in all of their experience they have, any nuances that are about them as a human, and they have the ability to actually look at a program and look into a program, and then vice versa, on the service provider side. The service provider is actually able to look at all of the details of the survivor, look at what they have been through, look at what they need. That type of connection and that type of visibility on both sides is what would actually potentially help to eliminate the level of misplacement or having to go into multiple programs at one point.

Sandra Morgan 16:26
Okay, because streamlining, I put that in the title here, because I think that’s an important improvement in this delivery. So let’s talk about when this is going to be available. We’re kind of like talking about the future launch, but it’s coming up very soon.

Melissa Yao 16:49
So exciting for this. Dr. Morgan, we have been working on this for over three years now, and we’re literally finally, in the home stretch. We’ve developed this in a four phase process and we are finished with three. So we have one more phase left. We are, hopefully, within six months of launching the app. Now, that doesn’t limit you utilizing the services currently. Alexis is brilliant and right now you get to get to know her because it’s not through the app, but the app will be utilized. Hopefully, we can officially launch it within the next six months.

Sandra Morgan 17:26
So tell us how someone connects with Alexis, right now.

Alexis Byers 17:32
So when survivors, or advocates, or law enforcement, any of those types are looking for any type of placement, they’re able to go directly onto our website, and under the referral section of the website, there’s a referral form. That is where they have the ability to actually fill it out and it comes directly to me, and then that is how we connect and work through the process.

Sandra Morgan 17:56
So even a survivor can go online and fill that out without, so to speak, a middleman?

Alexis Byers 18:04
Absolutely.

Melissa Yao 18:05
In fact, Dr. Morgan, the majority of our referrals are self referrals.

Sandra Morgan 18:10
Wow, that’s amazing. So already, there’s an element of empowerment through this direct access, not having to have a case manager, or advocate, someone else. And for law enforcement, especially in areas where there’s no organized task force, having a place to go when you suddenly are presented with someone in a situation that needs to exit, it’s amazing to be able to go online, say here’s what we’ve got, and what can you do? How long is that process? Is that going to take a couple of weeks and we have to house somebody in a hotel? What usually happens?

Alexis Byers 19:02
When somebody does actually fill out the form, we usually say that we will respond within 24 hours within the business week, so the Monday through Friday. When I respond, that means that I sent that referral out to all of the programs that match directly, so you know that your referral is going out within 24 hours of the typical business day. Once that referral is actually sent out, it takes about one and a half to two weeks to actually place them. Now I know that for people in the life, or people who are trying to get out of the life, that one and a half to two weeks could be detrimental and actually incredibly concerning for them if they have nowhere to go. That is why we do partnerships, like with an incredible network of emergency shelters, Safe Shelter Collaborative. We have a partnership with them where I actually have the ability to put in a referral for the survivor themselves, saying that they need an emergency placement. So we actually have the perfect line from an emergency shelter into this long term placement while we’re waiting for the placement to happen.

Sandra Morgan 20:10
Wow. So when the app is in the final phase, and is immediately accessible, how will that change the timeline?

Melissa Yao 20:23
Well honestly Dr. Morgan, I know that a week and a half feels like eternity sometimes, but when we’re looking at it in the context of a two to three year commitment, because that’s the average length of these residential programs, we want to ensure that the survivors are making a decision knowing what their options are. So if they’re getting calls from, let’s say, seven agencies that they’re able to interview, and one of them prioritizes workforce development, the other one prioritizes clinical healing, they can choose what their priorities are. That does take time to have these interviews, do some assessments, maybe they even get to talk to survivors currently in the program. I love that they can have that choice, but there does need to be that stop gap, there does need to be that emergency placement where they can be safe for a few days to be able to make that decision. I think one of the reasons, for years we’ve seen such a high recidivism rate, is because we’ve seen survivors get placed within 24 hours of an identification, and it wasn’t a good fit. One, they carry a tremendous amount of shame and blame when the program doesn’t work for them, because they take that ownership. Then, oftentimes they’re back into the life and maybe they ask for help again from another program, and it fails them again, and it’s this terrible, terrible cycle and you take years to finally overcome that trauma. Let’s change that by giving them a chance to really decide what the next few years of their life is going to look like and what their priorities are.

Sandra Morgan 21:59
I love that. That is truly trauma informed, and it also falls into the continuum of care model. So that’s truly best practice. As I’m listening to all of this, my sense is that there are listeners who are really interested in becoming part of this alliance. Can you tell us how someone could start that kind of process?

Melissa Yao 22:33
Right on our website, shelteredalliance.org, which I’m sure Dr. Morgan will share with all of you, you just sign up and become a part of our community. We have over five hours of training on trauma informed care. We have hours of utilizing staff development, utilizing volunteers, fundraising, the resources that you need to launch, or maintain, or be sustainable is all right there, available. But on top of that, you get to be a part of the community, because if there’s one thing I know about all of you that work directly with survivors, is that you are lonely, and that you feel isolated. But you don’t have to be that way, you can be a part of a community. You can message members directly saying, “What is your smoking policy?” Truly. What is your marijuana policy? What do you do when they want to bring their emotionally supportive peacock?

Sandra Morgan 23:33
Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness.

Melissa Yao 23:36
You can ask what others are doing because you’re not alone. You’re not alone. Don’t work siloed, work with a community, build those bridges.

Sandra Morgan 23:43
That’s so good. That is so good. I’m so grateful for this conversation. I’m going to give you each one minute for your last remarks to our listening community and an encouraging word for us.

Melissa Yao 24:00
My thing is, work together. And that’s tricky, because we have opinions, we have different approaches, but I would just say when we’re working with victims, survivors, people with lived experience, the reality is, is we cannot be so arrogant to believe that there’s a one size fits all. Maybe you have a program that looks different than yours, and you get frustrated at those differences, but I would encourage you to celebrate those differences. Because for some survivors that might be exactly what they need, and for others, your program is so perfect. So celebrate the differences, while encouraging enhanced quality of care through standards of care. Don’t work alone.

Alexis Byers 24:49
When it comes to my specific role within NTSA, I get to hear from both sides, whether that’s the survivor side but also the service provider side. The biggest message that I have is that we are there to support all of the sides, because we all have to work together in order to actually be able to place survivors and get them the help that they want and need. Then also, that every single part of this kind of battle is valid and valid in what they’re looking for, valid for what they’re providing, valid for what they are needing. That is something that I think is so important for all of us to remember, that we are all going towards the same goal, we are all trying to achieve the same thing and we need every single last person who is a part of this in order to do it.

Sandra Morgan 25:41
What a great way to end this episode. We all need to work together. Everybody knows, collaboration is my favorite word. Thank you both so much for being on this episode of Ending Human Trafficking. Now for our listeners, we’re inviting you if you haven’t already, to take the next step and join our community. Go over to endinghumantrafficking.org. You can find the resources we’ve mentioned in this conversation, and subscribe. Every two weeks, you’ll get an email with the latest release. There’s one more thing, now is the time to start planning for Ensure Justice 2024. Our theme is Keeping Our Children Safe Online. The conference will be at the Global Center for Women and Justice here at Vanguard University. I’m also inviting you to follow our Instagram account, eht_podcast. We want to grow our community. So thank you everybody for being here, and I’ll be back in two weeks.

View Details

Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Christina Chalilopoulou as the two discuss the complex challenges in prevention of trafficking of Roma youth.

Christina ChalilopoulouChristina Chalilopoulou is the co-founder and CEO of a ALYSOS Alert. She’s a graduate of London Metropolitan University and has a degree in European Studies and Ethics. Christina Chalilopoulou has also studied Leadership for Gender Equality with the British Council and served in multiple roles for Greek government entities, overseeing projects for social responsibility, human rights, and policy in social inclusion, and sustainability. She’s been Advisor to the President of the Central Union of Greek Municipalities, and a plethora of roles on behalf of education and social integration strategies for Roma people.

Key Points* In Greek Gypsy culture the crime of early forced marriage is common. It is also seen as a form of gender-based violence. * Roma are vulnerable to a multitude of forms of trafficking because of the social exclusion they experience. Examples of this social exclusion are the lack of access to health systems and lack of access to equal employment systems, resulting in low educational achievements, high levels of unemployment, and poverty. * ALYSOS Alert aims to empower and inform within the Roma community, but also to educate society as a whole about the vulnerabilities and affects on the Roma people. * The inclusion of those who have lived experience as a person of the community, is necessary in the process of designing policy.

Resources* ALYSOS Alert * Central Union of Greek Municipalities * 262: Human-Centered Design

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:00
You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode #307: Understanding Challenges in Preventing Human Trafficking Among Roma Youth.

Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today, our guest is from Athens, Greece. Her name is Christina Chalilopoulou and she is co-founder and CEO of a ALYSOS Alert. She’s a graduate of London Metropolitan University with a degree in European Studies and Ethics, and has also studied Leadership for Gender Equality with the British Council. Christina has served in multiple roles for Greek government entities, overseeing projects for social responsibility, human rights, and policy in social inclusion, and sustainability. She’s been Advisor to the President of the Central Union of Greek Municipalities, and a plethora of roles on behalf of education, and social integration strategies for Roma people, which are so important to our topic today. There is so much more, so Christina, welcome to the podcast.

Christina Chalilopoulou 2:05
Thank you for having me. It’s such a great honor to be invited, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to communicate all the issues that my community is facing. Thank you so very much.

Sandra Morgan 2:23
I loved meeting you in person when I was in Athens in June, and I plan to be back in Athens next June and see you again in person. So we’ll get coffee.

Christina Chalilopoulou 2:36
Yes, it will be lovely.

Sandra Morgan 2:38
So tell us about the Roma people. I don’t think people know very much and these are your people.

Christina Chalilopoulou 2:46
Well, you see, Roma originate from Northern India, presumably from Northwest India. But in Greece, the Roma, or as I like to make the distinction, the gypsies, they have been present in Greece since the 14th century. We are not an entirely homogeneous group, given that we consist of different and often conflict tribes. We are estimated that we are around 300,000, Greek gypsies that live in Greece.

Sandra Morgan 3:29
Let me stop you and ask you a question, because I know when I lived in Greece, it was a little confusing for me in conversations. Are we talking about Roma or gypsy? Or is gypsy a synonym for Roma? Can you clarify a little?

Christina Chalilopoulou 3:52
Yes, the thing is that the term “Roma” comes from our dialect, and it means a human being. Therefore, in our language, Roma actually means people. But, you see, in Greece, because the Constitution does not recognize minorities, and the few decades now, the term “Roma” actually, it tends to mean that it’s a minority group. We distinguish ourselves and we say that we are Greek Gypsies, rather than Greek Roma, because Roma is an international term, but because other countries, and especially in Balkans, their constitution recognized minorities, therefore they recognized Roma, as a minority. Where here in Greece, we don’t recognize any minorities in our constitution, we are Greek citizens therefore we make that distinction. So, yeah.

Sandra Morgan 5:05
Thank you.

Christina Chalilopoulou 5:05
So on top of that 300,000 population, we have to also count a significant number of newly arrived Roma, who originate mainly from Albania and countries of former Yugoslavia. So that makes around an estimation of 500,000 people who live in Greece.

Sandra Morgan 5:30
That’s half a million.

Christina Chalilopoulou 5:32
Yes.

Sandra Morgan 5:34
How is their culture different than the host culture?

Christina Chalilopoulou 5:38
Because we are in in Greece since the 14th century, we don’t have many differences in our culture, apart from the negative thing that we still, even today, married at an early age.

Sandra Morgan 6:03
How early?

Christina Chalilopoulou 6:06
Quite early, at the age of 14, sometimes 15. In extreme cases, even younger. So ALYSOS Alert is actually working on combating early marriages in my community, and we try to inform as much as we can, the community and why this actually constitutes a crime because it is illegal to get married at such an early age. Yes, it’s a fight that we give every day and to be honest, we need the support and all the help that we can get. Because here in Greece, you see, via the government policy, the state policy, it’s not always as near to us as it should, in the level that we need to be.

Sandra Morgan 7:11
Okay, so let’s kind of dive into that, because it feels like that contributes to making Roma more vulnerable to exploitation and even human trafficking. I’m particularly interested in understanding the forced labor part for children. I was noticing when I was there, this year, that I still saw children on the corners that I identified as Roma, and they weren’t in school, and that bothered me. So let’s talk about what that is related to.

Christina Chalilopoulou 7:17
Well yeah, if we talk about Roma and trafficking, then we should include sexual exploitation, labor exploitation, domestic servitude, illegal adoption, and forced begging. But these are not only the types of trafficking that we have to face, we also need to see that we have the the illegal marriages, as I mentioned earlier. What makes us vulnerable is the poverty and the social exclusion that we face, which results in low educational achievements, unfortunately, high level of unemployment, and this is something that we, of course, we need to overcome. I need to mention that, in my community, early enforced marriages are a form of gender based violence. So women who are faced with extreme poverty and social exclusion, they face serious difficulties in accessing socio protection systems.

Sandra Morgan 9:14
Let’s go back to this term you’re using: social exclusion. Let’s give some examples of what that looks like.

Christina Chalilopoulou 9:26
Well, from education exclusion, we don’t have easy access to health systems, we don’t have an access to equal employment, and these are only our every day struggles. We face so many stereotypes from the society, that actually I think, it’s because the whole of the society has not been trained in order to accept peoplewho face social exclusion. They see us as different, but we are not any different.

Sandra Morgan 10:20
I think your definition and it clarifying what Roman means: people, it means people, so no, there’s no difference between people. In my living in Greece, I saw that social exclusion. I saw how Roma people, gypsies, were treated differently when I was in a market or when I was in a public setting, and I couldn’t quite understand what I could do to make a difference in changing that. Some of the questions I had as I began to understand child labor and sexual exploitation: “Who do I call?”, “How do I get services when I see a youth that I feel might be being exploited?” As a foreigner visiting the country, it was distressing not to have an avenue. There is a hotline for human trafficking but it was a little more challenging for a foreigner to use it.

Christina Chalilopoulou 11:40
It’s true. Usually all those campaigns that are available, they’re not available for those people, for my people, for those young girls and women. So what we need, and what we try to do is get the information there and make them feel safe, and get them to know their rights. Because something which is happening very often, is that we see young girls in a situation where domestic violence is happening, but she cannot recognize that what is happening is illegal, and that is under the umbrella of domestic violence, and therefore she cannot ask from her family, from her environment, any help. Even if she tries to, the sad thing is that in cases where the young girl actually asked for advice from the mothers, their mothers actually said that, “You should be patient,” probably because the mothers also were victims of domestic violence. So the problem is that they don’t know where to ask for help, and what we try to do as ALYSOS Alert is to empower those girls and those women, and make them feel safe, and let them know where they can turn to get help.

Sandra Morgan 13:25
Okay, so I noticed on your social media for ALYSOS Alert, that you are recognizing International Day Against Violence Against Women, and that’s significant. Iis that a strategy for educating within the community? Or is it more focused on in the greater Greek society?

Christina Chalilopoulou 13:53
Well, you see, 25th of November, it’s the International Day to End Violence Against Women, and what we say and we strongly believe, is that forced marriages are an abuse of human rights, and especially where a child is involved in those early enforced marriages. So this is sort of a campaign, a very small campaign because we are a very poor organization, and we only work with volunteers. So basically, the work that we do is to inform and empower inside the community and also try and train the society in general, to see that if domestic violence is something very bad, and very wrong and harmful for a human being, imagine how harmful it is for a person who is excluded from the community, who is probably in a very, very low educational level, therefore cannot get any help because they cannot recognize early stages, and how to read those signs. So imagine how difficult it is for a young girl to actually leave and face the violence that is facing, and get help. We try to also educate in a way to inform the whole of the society, and that’s where we need.

Sandra Morgan 15:49
For me, as I’m listening to you, and having lived there, and I know many times, gypsy communities were very mobile, didn’t always stay in one place, didn’t have access to being part of broader communities, and that impacted how the children attended school as well. When we talk about changing systems to protect the vulnerable, we’re talking not just about education as an awareness campaign, if you print posters, and you put them up in places where people might be, that requires that those young girls would be able to have that level of reading, and they may not have attended school all the way through high school, like most of the population, how is ALYSOS Alert addressing that?

Christina Chalilopoulou 16:52
Well, that’s a great point because all the work that ALYSOS Alert is doing, is on the community to the spot. Basically what we do, we try to communicate our messages by audio, not by posters that they cannot read, but by audios. So we have a group of volunteers, and we visit each area once a week, and we do work on the spot. It is very, very difficult. We are so thankful to our volunteers, but this is something else we need funding that actually will give us the opportunity to be more accessible to those girls and women.

Sandra Morgan 17:47
So when I met you, one of the things that really struck me was having a representative from Roma community with a story like yours, because you weren’t married early, you went to university. I remember a little about that story, maybe you can share with our listeners too, because your father was a big piece of that.

Christina Chalilopoulou 18:18
It’s true. Well, you see, my mother got married at the age of 14 and by the age of 15, she was a mother. I am the youngest out of five children and we all got the opportunity to study and read overseas. My father, who was raised in a nomadic way, he loved education. I think he was so unhappy for not having the opportunity to finish school and study that actually, he didn’t say anything else other than for us to go to school and finish our studies. That was his biggest dream. He actually learned to write and read on his own, and he dreamt of being a lawyer. Unfortunately, he didn’t study, he didn’t go to school, but he worked day and night with my mum in order for us to finish school and study. He faced a sort of bullying from his family and from his community because those years, to go to school, for my biggest sisters and brothers it was something almost not acceptable. So yes, he was and he is the reason that we actually finished our studies and we went to universities. He is the reason that he taught us how to love our community, that we have a moral obligation to help those people, and to be the bond between our community and the whole of the world. Because I think people, due to the everyday life, they don’t have the chance to think and realize how difficult life is for people to leave, legally. When I say legally, I mean when the laws do not allow you to work legally, and that actually puts you in a very difficult and bad situation as an illegal worker. Why do I say this? Because gypsies, the only thing that they are good at, so far, is trade. Here in Greece, in order for someone to work in a market place, they need a license. Here in Greece, Roma people, they don’t have the licenses, because governments, they have a limited number of licenses that are given, therefore, those people are almost punished to live and work illegally. So imagine how difficult it is to work illegally, and not having the money that a family needs in order to feed and dress their children so they can go to school as everybody else, so the children are actually separated from the rest because they don’t have the right clothes or the right shoes. Here in Greece, children, they do face bullying from from a very young age and that makes them not willing to go to school.

Sandra Morgan 22:34
Okay o this kind of brings us back to where we started with the issue around poverty. It becomes a vicious cycle, and without the education, even if everything is lined up in a community to get a license, you have a lot of paperwork to have to fill out. It requires some reading skill, and just all of the things. You’ve got to have a stable address, you can’t be nomadic, you can’t be moving, and so it feels like we need to make some changes. ALYSOS Alert has been a leader in trying to advocate for changes in government policy, even legislation. What are your goals for that in this season?

Christina Chalilopoulou 23:27
Well, as you said, I have worked in the past, as an advisor to former prime ministers and ministers. Even though I know the problems that my community actually faces, what I saw, I found it difficult, not from my side of view, but it was difficult for them, the government’s, actually, to make the necessary policies in order to include my people according to their needs. What we are trying to do is lower the rate of school dropping, because even though education is a priority for the rest of the world, for my community, it is not. For my community, priority is to be able to work in order to feed your family. Yes, I think I think we need to empower the girls and the young people in my community to show them the way that education is the the only, and the right way to go. They need to know that they do have some Somebody to rely on, and that’s what we try to do. ALYSOS Alert is trying to be that stone that they can rely on.

Sandra Morgan 25:14
And I really appreciate, in your ALYSOS Alert strategy, that you include research as well as policy analysis. You don’t just put together a program and come and say, “Do this,” you have the research. In your last project with the government, collecting data from all of the regional municipalities was really important. Because if I, as working with you in children, come and look at Greek statistics on education, it looks pretty good, but if I have data about Roma children and education, then I’m going to direct more attention to understanding what the underlying issues are so that I can support your goal of reducing school drop out, reducing the resistance to even going to school because of the bullying and the stereotypes. That’s going to take full community that cares. I’m curious about your partners in Athens. I have seen through your CV, that you have been very effective across different public institutions, the private sector, civil society. Are there some areas that are more receptive and building more collaboration?

Christina Chalilopoulou 26:56
Not really.

Sandra Morgan 26:58
Okay, so it’s one of your goals, but you haven’t really seen the fruit of that. Okay.

Christina Chalilopoulou 27:05
It needs hard work. What I had to face, is that I had to work three and four times harder than anybody else, in order to convince them why we should actually work on that community, and why we should give opportunities to education, to working through working environments, and it was always very, very hard to convince, especially the state officials. But, I did find people who had good intentions to do work, and to actually design policy, but you see, good intentions are not enough. What we need is we need to involve more people from my community who actually have gone that extra mile, and they finished their studies, and they do have all the necessary qualifications in order to work in national and international organizations, and this is something that would make me very happy if I see it happening. Because until now, what I have seen and what I’ve actually dealt with, was people outside from my community designing policies, because as I said, they had good intentions, but they had lack of knowledge, and that is a huge, huge, huge gap.

Sandra Morgan 29:04
That’s a really important observation, Christina and I want our listeners to go back and listen, I’ll put the episode number in the show notes, to listen to Dr. Shauntina Sorrells about Human-Centered Design. In my world, we have a saying: “Nothing For Us, Without Us.” So having people from outside the community design programs and develop projects, they’re not going to have as much success because they’re not informed by the lived experience of the people within the community. Listeners, please go back and listen to that. Think about how, in your setting, how you can help improve the situation for people who may be in the same category of social exclusion. Christina, I was so taken by our opportunity to meet before because I see you as changing the next generation opportunities, much like your father did for you. He resisted the status quo and he changed the trajectory for your entire family.

Christina Chalilopoulou 30:31
Thank you. I don’t know what to say, thank you so much. I really love what I do. I don’t know if it shows but I feel like I’m a woman in love. What I do, I do it because I strongly believe in it and I love my community. I’m trying to find ways to help as much as I can. Hopefully, something good will come out of all this effort that I’m putting in. So fingers crossed. Having said that before, for designing policies, “Nothing For Us, Without Us,” it’s crazy. If we just think that how much funding has been spent, billions, to design policy in order to achieve inclusion, but unfortunately, the only thing that, until today, has succeeded is the exclusion of my community. That makes me wonder why this is happening, and the only answer that I give is that because all the state, governmental, and international organizations, they do not include in the level that they should, people from the community.

Sandra Morgan 32:15
You are a warrior, you’re a path maker, just like your father, and I believe that you are going to be successful, because you are persistent, and you care so much about your community. I look forward to seeing you again when I’m in Greece in June, and learning more and getting more involved. Our time is up, it went by so quickly. Thank you so much, Christina, for joining me.

Christina Chalilopoulou 32:51
Thank you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure. Thank you for the honor. I look forward in seeing you again in Athens, it was such a lovely discussion that we had. Thank you so much for that opportunity.

Sandra Morgan 33:08
Thank you for listening to this episode. Please go over to our endinghumantrafficking.org website to find the show notes with links to the things we’ve mentioned in this conversation with Christina. You’ll find links to other opportunities like our Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate program. If you haven’t visited our site before, go over and become a subscriber and you’ll receive a note with highlights from each episode, once every two weeks. And of course, I’ll be back for our next conversation in two weeks.

View Details

Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Jerome Elam as the two discuss the importance of advocating for male victims of trafficking.

Jerome ElamJerome Elam is president and CEO of Trafficking in America Task Force, Child Sex Trafficking Survivor, Survivor Leader, recipient of the Award for Courage presented by the National Council of Jewish Women, a member of ECPAT Global Survivors Forum, a member of ECPAT Global Network of Survivor Led Organizations. He’s a staff writer and columnist for Community’s Digital News, a special adviser to the Utah Attorney General, a Marine Corps veteran, recipient of the US Attorney General’s Alliance Lifetime Achievement Award for Anti Trafficking work, and chosen as one of New York’s New Abolitionists.

Key Points* The Warsaw Human Dimension Conference unites 57 OSCE member countries to report on how they’ve been addressing human trafficking and it is global in attendance. * Human trafficking is multifaceted because there is forced criminality involved, making it less likely for men and boys to be identified as survivors. * Jerome Elam describes grooming as psychological quicksand in which the predator grooms the victim through the five stages listed in the episode. * Because of the shame that surrounds male victims, they are less likely to disclose the crimes, and through the grooming of a child’s environment, the victim is less likely to be believed by the adults around them.

Resources* Trafficking in America Task Force * National Council of Jewish Women * ECPAT Global Survivors Forum * ECPAT Global Network of Survivor Led Organizations * Communities Digital News * Organization for Security Cooperation in Europe’s Office * Human Dimensions Conference * National Referral Mechanisms * OSCE ODIHR * Safe Harbor Laws * 304 – European Perspectives, with Ioana Bauer * Jerome Elam in “The Silence” * The Clown and The Candy Man * Survivor Voices of Human Trafficking * Jerome Elam: UN World Day Against Human Trafficking * Jerome Elam: New York’s New Abolitionists

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:00
You are listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast episode #306: Survivor Voices Leading Change, with Jerome Elam.

Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Our guest today is Jerome Elam. He is president and CEO of Trafficking in America Task Force, Child Sex Trafficking Survivor, Survivor Leader, recipient of the Award for Courage presented by the National Council of Jewish Women, a member of ECPAT Global Survivors Forum, a member of ECPAT Global Network of Survivor Led Organizations. He’s a staff writer and columnist for Community’s Digital News, a special adviser to the Utah Attorney General, a Marine Corps veteran, recipient of the US Attorney General’s Alliance Lifetime Achievement Award for Anti Trafficking work, and chosen as one of New York’s New Abolitionists. He’s so much more and you’re going to learn about that in our conversation. Welcome to the show, Jerome.

Jerome Elam 1:59
Thank you Sandie, it’s an honor to be here.

Sandra Morgan 2:01
You just came back from Warsaw, Poland for the OSCE Conference, there’s 57 member countries. Tell us what that is, why you were there, and maybe a couple of other things I’m going to ask you.

Jerome Elam 2:17
Absolutely. Thank you for that question. The Warsaw Human Dimension Conference is a yearly conference that is put on by the Organization for Security Cooperation in Europe’s Office of Democratic Initiatives and Human Rights, that brings together the 57 member countries of the OSCE where we can basically give them a report card on how they’re doing in terms of addressing human trafficking. So one of the things I’ve been really grateful for is opportunity to work on what we call the National Referral Manual, which is a guide book used by the 57 member countries of the OSCE to help combat human trafficking. We are able, at the Warsaw Human Dimension Conference, to talk to these countries about how they’re following the guidelines, how they’re doing combating human trafficking, and to give them any guidance we can to help them improve their approach to it.

Sandra Morgan 3:09
Well, who’s we? Because I know you’re there, I know a few other people, it’s not all survivors.

Jerome Elam 3:16
No, exactly. I am grateful, I’m actually in my second term as a member of the OSCE OHDIR, survivors of trafficking Advisory Council. But I was at the Warsaw Human Dimension Conference as a member of the Council, but also as a member of Civil Society, representing my nonprofit Tafficking America Task Force. The global community can attend this conference and really talk about these important issues, and we both know that human trafficking is evolving faster than the law can keep up with it. So we’re here to talk about how to institute cutting edge approaches to keeping innocent victims from being scooped up by human traffickers and exploited. This is the world community. There were people there from all over the world and I was grateful that we all shared that singular passion to bring it into human trafficking.

Sandra Morgan 3:32
And just recently, we interviewed Ioana Bauer and she’s been a participant there too. So in the show notes for our listeners, I’ll put a link to her interview last time too. So I want to ask you, as a survivor, what is your greatest challenge when advocating for male victims of trafficking?

Jerome Elam 4:39
That’s, unfortunately, an easy question. Awareness, getting people to understand the gravity and the scope of the problem when it comes to male victims of human trafficking. Now, unfortunately, as men and boys, our westernized concept of ego doesn’t allow us to admit that we’re victims or that we’re vulnerable, so we’re less likely to disclose, and we have 14 times the suicide rate of the norm, and 38 times rate of drug overdose as victims of sexual assault and trafficking, and we’re 50% more likely to be incarcerated as juveniles

Sandra Morgan 5:15
Wait, wait, be incarcerated? But you’re the victim! Tell me why, for what?

Jerome Elam 5:22
Well, one of the things you have to understand about human trafficking is it’s so multifaceted, the sense that when you’re being trafficked, there’s forced criminality. I mean, typically when it comes to men and boys in particular, they’re more likely to be arrested for shoplifting or petty theft than they are for human trafficking or be recognized as victims of human trafficking. What it is, is they exploit you for every ounce of your humanity, so you’re forced to do all these things with your life being threatened if you don’t, and so you’re arrested, but you also can be arrested for prostitution, which again, we really push the advancment of Safe Harbor laws that recognize that victims of human trafficking aren’t criminals. And so that’s been a slowly evolving modality, but you can be arrested as a victim and incarcerated, and spend years in prison and jail, until it’s actually figured out that you’re a victim, you were forced to do this. So there are so many people that I know in particular, that have these long criminal histories when they were a victim of human trafficking, and then they have to fight to get those records expunged, because they were put on trial and convicted of a crime that they were not guilty of. They were forced to do this.

Sandra Morgan 6:44
And I think, to that point, we’ve talked about that on this podcast. We want to “rescue”, and I’m using air quotes for our listeners, because rescue is just a word that has so many problems. What are some of the problems when we hear the word “rescue”?

Jerome Elam 7:06
Sandie, great question. Unfortunately, that’s a narrative that is very seldom realized. I mean, typically, the majority of victims, of human trafficking get out of their own volition, they find a way out. I mean, there’s not this knocking down the door, rushing in with a flashlight, scooping the victim up and running out. Typically, either you come to the attention of law enforcement through another crime, or you’re arrested for prostitution, and then eventually it’s figured out. Rescues do happen, but that’s not how victims typically get out of being trafficked. I mean, that’s an urban myth.

Sandra Morgan 7:44
Yeah. Okay, good. I love to pound that home every chance I get, because we have to start looking for exit pathways for victims so they become survivors, leading change, or just leading the life they really wanted. So we’re talking about exit strategies, I want to go back to how it begins. And I know you’re an expert witness on grooming. When we talk a lot about how children are recruited, oftentimes online, and the conversation these days about online safety for kids is huge. I don’t think we realize that trafficking is one of the risks. So talk to us about grooming.

Jerome Elam 8:40
Yeah, grooming. The way I describe grooming is psychological quicksand. What this means is that when a predator targets a child, they actually entice them through giving them gifts, and let me just put this in the context for myself. As a child, my mother was an alcoholic, pregnant at 17. I was born into an environment where there was domestic violence, drug abuse, I was being molested. So if anybody paid attention to me for five seconds, I mean, they had me. When I was targeted, this person showered me with gifts, gave me affection. So I would do anything for this person, because I’d never know what it was like to feel like I mattered, and they made me feel like I mattered. And so once that happens, then they begin to slowly rope you in by you know, they’ll tell you a dirty joke, they’ll show you pornography, and then they slowly get to the point where they begin to molest you. In my case, as in many, they threatened my mother’s life and said, “Well, if you talk about this, we’re going to kill your mother.” Regardless of how big a train wreck your parents are as an alcoholic or whatever, as a child you’re still going to do whatever you can to protect them. I was in a prison of silence by these threats of violence so I didn’t speak out, and it just began to escalate. I was trapped. Also, I want to make a point about grooming in that I’d like to say that, they not only groom the child, they groom the adults around the child. This individual in particular, this predator, will gain the respect. Let’s say Jerry Sandusky, for example, will gain the respect of everybody around that child, so when that child tries to speak out, they’re not listened to. Now, what we know from the research is that a child that is a victim of abuse or trafficking has to tell a total of nine adults before they’re believed.

Sandra Morgan 10:38
What?

Jerome Elam 10:39
Yeah. I’d like to quote Jerry Sandusky’s first victim to come forward, went to his high school principal and said, “Jerry Sandusky is molesting me.” His principal said, “What do you want to get Jerry in trouble for? He’s a great guy.” So we have that wall that we run into with with children, especially not being believed. That’s where we’re really need to, through this podcast and through our work, make sure that we listen to children, and that we recognize the signs so they don’t go through this hell I did, for seven years, as a victim of child sex trafficking.

Sandra Morgan 11:12
So can you share how old you were when the grooming started?

Jerome Elam 11:18
Absolutely. I was five years old and like I said, it was a very chaotic situation, with my mom being an alcoholic, she was dating you know, every dirtbag. My first memory as a three year old, is the sound of my mother’s face being slapped by this person she was with. I was in this, kind of, this hell, where I didn’t know which way was up, it was so chaotic. At five years old, my mother met a man that we thought was the answer to our prayers. When he started giving us gifts, taking us places, we thought, this is Prince Charming on his white horse riding up and saving us. Well, we didn’t know, and let me just say this happens quite often, that predators will target children through the mothers. They’ll romance the mother to get to the child. So here I am in a situation where I thought things would get better, and then he starts to molest me, and it just escalates and gets worse from there.

Sandra Morgan 12:20
So let’s talk through the stages. And tell people how to get to your website, because I found this on your website.

Jerome Elam 12:28
Right. It’s traffickinginamericataskforce.com.

Sandra Morgan 12:32
That’s a lot of letters.

Jerome Elam 12:34
I know, I’ve got to shorten that up.

Sandra Morgan 12:35
That’s okay. Say that one more time.

Jerome Elam 12:42
traffickinginamericataskforce.com.

Sandra Morgan 12:44
Okay, so let’s talk through the stages. What is stage one?

Jerome Elam 12:49
Stage one is definitely the targeting. It’s where someone is being targeted by a predator. When they spot a child that they want to go after, they’ll go ahead and make a plan in their mind, about how they want to actually begin to groom this child and begin to target them. And so I think the identification of the victim is definitely where the whole thing launches and just escalates from there.

Sandra Morgan 13:20
Okay, stage two, gaining the victims trust.

Jerome Elam 13:26
That is so key. Because again, as in my case, when someone is kind to you for the first time in your life, and they’re buying you gifts, and someone actually picks you up after school when they say they’re going to because when your mother’s an alcoholic and you’re standing on the curb until dark waiting for someone to come and get you, and then you’ve got someone who is there ahead of time with comic books, with candy, with sodas and giving you all this attention, then that’s when they begin to establish that trust that you’ve longed for, as a victim, you’ve longed for that. I think that’s, again, that’s what we struggle with as adults, as adult survivors is learning to trust people again.

Sandra Morgan 14:16
Wow, I never thought that predators might use picking a kid up from school, but if you’re often forgotten, that’s a huge trust builder.

Jerome Elam 14:29
It really is. We talk about children especially, Sandie. The thing about being a kid, like I say, it doesn’t matter how horrible your parents are, in your mind as a child, you’re making these excuses for them. I mean, I’m a bit older and there was a show called The Brady Bunch. You’re always imagining that you’re living in a Brady Bunch world. I mean that’s your fantasy, but you’re really living at the lowest level of Dante’s Inferno because you’re in that hell. As a child, that’s the only way you survive, is that you concoct these fantasies. But the reality of it is so much harsher, that you’re just abandoned, neglected, and you feel worthless. I think that one thing I like to speak about, which you know, I’m writing a book, and it’s in my book, is we talk about what we call a culture of helplessness. I think as a victim, especially a child victim, you’re really ingrained with that culture of helplessness, where you feel like you have zero power in your life, you can’t really decide anything, you can’t control anything in your life. When a little thing like someone picking you up on time, or someone making sure that you’re actually fed, which was my case as well, making sure that you actually have a meal, that is like walking on the moon to you as a child victim.

Sandra Morgan 14:31
Well, and that speaks to stage three, filling a need.

Jerome Elam 15:58
Yeah, and again, like I say, as a child, I was desperate for affection, like a drowning man is desperate for oxygen. As a child, you crave that. When you grow up in that vacuum of of love and affection, you crave that as a child. One of the things that I like to talk about is I spent 25 years with a trauma therapist recovering from being trafficked as a child, and I would often sit there week after week and say, “Why am I here, and so many kids didn’t make it.” One thing that we came up with was that I had one person in my life, who was my great aunt, who showed me unconditional love. She gave me that tether to this world, that actually was a shield against the darkness that kept me in touch with the warmth and hope inside my heart, and I never, ever lost that. Most often, when we talk about victims who don’t make it, a lot of times, we see people who have been so deprived of unconditional love, and just so just so beaten down by their situation, that they just cannot find that hope and love in their heart. That’s what I try to do, as a survivor and as an advocate, is show people that that there’s a hope and love in your heart, no matter what happened to you in this life, God’s always going to love you.

Sandra Morgan 17:24
Wow. Filling that need sometimes looks like providing the seeming love connection, and the things people do for you when they love you, whether as a child or as an adult.

Jerome Elam 17:40
Absolutely. One of the things you have to understand, and one of the things that we do in my advocacy work, is we go in to the school system and we teach about what we call healthy relationships. Because what you find is that coming from a very dysfunctional environment, you have no idea what healthy love looks like. So when this predator comes along, and just gives you attention, you interpret that as love and affection, it’s really not. That’s why we go into schools and teach kids: here’s what a healthy relationship looks like. We get so many kids disclosing that they’re suffering, abuse, trafficking, or something else, because they don’t understand. They don’t have any kind of relative gauge of what it should be like. So until you actually teach a child what they deserve, and what love looks like, they are searching for it and have no idea what it looks like.

Sandra Morgan 18:41
Then we start moving into this darker part of the stages of grooming, isolating the child.

Jerome Elam 18:49
Oh gosh, that’s key. Because again, that’s where, they gain the trust of all the adults around the child, the child’s not listened to, and then they’ll alienate the child from any connection they have, whether it be friends or whatever, they’ll alienate that child and say, “That person is not really good for you. I don’t really trust them. I don’t think you should be hanging out with them.”

Sandra Morgan 19:12
But that sounds like they care for me if they’re trying to protect me. Yeah?

Jerome Elam 19:18
But it’s not the truth. It’s, just a tactic they use. I mean, they wear a mask, and the mask they wear is that they’re loving, caring, respectable individuals, but you pull that mask off, and it’s just pure evil. It’s someone whose sole desire in life is to molest and/or hurt children. There’s that facade that exists there, they use that to bait you and then rope you in, and once they have you in this position where you want to be around them so intensely because you’ve never had this attention, then they know they can begin to do what they want to do.

Sandra Morgan 19:18
And in that isolation then, there’s no buffer adult to protect you, and they have you alone, which was their goal.

Jerome Elam 20:13
Exactly. Once you’re alone, you can be lost to the darkness, because they start out slowly, and begin to do things that escalates. We have to understand that there’s that trap of shame. When you’re being molested as a child, especially as a male, there’s this shame that you bear at what’s happening. They use that against you. They’ll say, “Well, if you say anything, I’ll tell people that this was consensual, you wanted to do this.” So there’s that shame that’s there as a male, that also keeps you quiet. You’re in this tight trap you just cannot get out of, and are just desperate, and you’re begging God to come and help you and save you.

Sandra Morgan 21:00
So that isolating, and the abuse begins to be much more overt. I get that. The fifth stage: sexualizing the relationship, is a little more complex.

Jerome Elam 21:18
Oh gosh. I would say it begins with a hug, then it moves to a longer hug, then a hand on your leg, then they begin to grope you, and they make it seem like you owe them this, that you’re indebted to them. “Hey I bought you this, I bought you that, I’m doing this for you, I’m treating your mom well,” and so that you’re indebted, that you owe them this and that you should let them do this. Then that just progresses. And again, you’re just so trapped in that situation, that before you know it, they’re molesting you daily or several times a day, and then getting worse from there.

Sandra Morgan 22:13
And how does desensitization factor into this sexualizing?

Jerome Elam 22:20
I think they try and desensitize you to tha fact that physical contact is normal. They normalize it in your encounters with them that this is something that everybody does. I mean, I remember them saying that this is something that everybody does. They want to desensitize you to the severity of what’s happening to you, even though everything inside you is screaming, this is wrong, that this shouldn’t be happening to you. But then you’ve got this authority figure telling you, “no, this is all normal, this happens all the time.” This is where you struggle with that trauma, because one of the things about being a victim and survivor, especially a victim, is you question yourself because here you’ve been just brainwashed by this predator to believe that that this was something that you initiated, which is what they often say, and they also make you believe that you wanted this, which is totally, totally wrong.

Sandra Morgan 23:22
Well, and sometimes that pivots on developmental stages, where curiosity is part of how you are developing, and they exploit that to make it look to the child, like they were responsible. And that, I think, is one of the most twisted aspects of the grooming process.

Jerome Elam 23:52
And I will just tell you, from my own personal experience, they would say stuff like, “Oh, this is just practice for when you’re with a girl.” They use that one on you, “Oh, this is just practice, all guys do this to get ready to be with a woman.” There’s all these head games they play with you, and that’s it’s really a struggle to, especially when you’re a child and this happens to you, to begin to stop those tapes playing in your head that this predator put there and begin to understand what you’re worthy of and what you deserve.

Sandra Morgan 24:31
And that sixth stage is when they literally control you. And how did you break out of stage six?

Jerome Elam 24:43
It’s an unfortunate story because what happened with me is, I was trafficked from the age of five to the age of 12, so seven years, and I tried to tell a total of 10 people, including an ER doctor. One of the things that happens when you’re a victim of human trafficking is that you’re given a false identity, and in one case, I was given a false identity and I didn’t respond to the name quickly enough. So I was thrown to the ground and this person had cowboy boots on, and they kicked me until they bruised three of my ribs. I went to the emergency room, and the handler or trafficker that took me in, stepped out of the exam room to smoke a cigarette, so I whispered in doctors ear, “They’re hurting me, please help me.” Well, I didn’t know that this trafficker had told the doctor that I was accident prone, attention seeking, and made up wild stories, so I was not believed and I came back three hours later with three broken ribs, to teach me a lesson about not speaking out. After seven years of going through this, and nobody listening, and I was just filled with such hopelessness, I ended up in my mother’s rose garden, when she cared more about the roses than she did me, with a bottle of vodka and a bottle of sleeping pills. I took the sleeping pills and drank the vodka, and drifted off to sleep. I distinctly remember, I heard a voice talking to me and it said, “Your time on Earth isn’t done. I want you to go back and fight for every child that’s suffering as you have. I thought back and I recognized that voice that was my African American friend, Steve, who had been murdered, had been killed by the traffickers while I was being trafficked. So I woke up in the emergency room, and guess what? There was a nurse there, and that nurse dug her heels in and said, this boy needs help. The doctors were complaining about the paperwork and she said, “No, this boy needs help and we’re going to get him help.” So she, an angel I call her, was there for me that day and saved me from being trafficked. That’s why I’m grateful to all nurses and I love training, educating nurses, because if there’s anybody that’s going to be trusted, it’s a nurse, because the nurses are there, they care. It can be a very hard situation, you’re busy all the time, but they always take the time to make sure that you understand that you matter to them, and you’re not there to get out of the room as quickly as they can. That’s why I love nurses. She saved me that day and then I was able to get out of being trafficked, and bounced around the foster care system. Then when I turned 17, I joined the United States Marine Corps, and never looked back.

Sandra Morgan 27:41
Wow, Jerome, you do remember, I’m a nurse?

Jerome Elam 27:44
I do.

Sandra Morgan 27:45
When I tell my story of beginning to be an advocate in anti trafficking, I always start with working night shift. My first victim of human trafficking was a 14 year old boy, so this is such a meaningful interview. I just looked at the time, our time is up. We’ve got so much more to talk about and we will definitely schedule another opportunity to chat. In the meantime, I’m going to put links to everything in our show notes, and I’m going to give you one minute for your closing statement call to action for our community.

Jerome Elam 28:33
Absolutely, thank you. I just want to say as a survivor of child sex trafficking, I will never have the joy of being a boy laying in a field of grass, or watching clouds and picking out figures in their shapes, but what I can do is fight to my last breath to make sure the next child has the right to be loved and cared for and not be trafficked, and taken advantage of.

Sandra Morgan 29:01
Thank you.

Jerome Elam 29:02
Thank you.

Sandra Morgan 29:08
That was such a powerful conversation, and now we are inviting you to take the next step. Go over to endinghumantrafficking.org. You’ll find all the links that we’ve mentioned in this conversation, and so much more. If you want to get involved, you need knowledge, and insight, and preparation, training. You can find our anti human trafficking certificate, you can find a link to come to Ensure Justice in March. You can become a subscriber so that you get episode updates in your inbox twice a month. Thank you for listening and we’ll be back in two weeks.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Kelsey Morgan and the two discuss the importance of measuring survivor progress.

Kelsey MorganKelsey Morgan is EverFree co-founder and Chief Program Officer. In 2015, Kelsey founded Willow International to meet the growing demand for quality aftercare and to transform the systems that fuel trafficking. In 2021, Kelsey teamed up with Jeremy Floyd, CEO of 10ThousandWindows, to unite their two organizations to become EverFree. Kelsey is currently pursuing her Ph.D. from the University of California, Irvine.

Key Points* It is important to include survivors in the process of creating a tool to connect them with resources. * The Freedom Lifemap tool and program was created to be easy to use and incorporates survivor voices. * Direct feedback from the survivor is given when using the Freedom Lifemap tool, to give the survivor individualized resources that will create lasting freedom. * The Freedom Lifemap program has adaptations in USA, Uganda, Philippines, Mexico, Bolivia, Kenya, and Cambodia.

Resources* Everfree * Willow International * 10ThousandWindows * UCI School of Social Ecology * Poverty Stoplight Tool * OrangeWood Foundations * Six Dimensions of Wellness

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:00

You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode #305: Measuring Victim Service Progress, with Kelsey Morgan.

Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Kelsey Morgan is EverFree co-founder and chief program officer. In 2015 Kelsey founded Willow International to meet the growing demand for quality after care, and to transform the systems that fuel trafficking. In 2021, Kelsey teamed up with Jeremy Floyd, CEO of 10ThousandWindows, to unite their two organizations to become EverFree. Kelsey is currently pursuing her PhD from the University of California, Irvine. I am so excited to have Kelsey here in our studio for this recording, and I should let you all know, I am on Kelsey’s dissertation committee, and it really makes me happy to see the amazing impact that is growing.

Kelsey Morgan 2:02
Thank you, Sandie. I’m so happy to be here.

Sandra Morgan 1:51
Well, let’s just dive right in. You are just knocking down old myths that we can’t measure victim services in a way that’s easy. Everybody has been so challenged by how to tell people what our impact is, how to tell when a survivor is ready, maybe for the next step. I want you to give us a little insight into what drove you to choose a research project, tackling a question that everybody was asking?

Kelsey Morgan 2:36
Yeah, so I’ve been doing anti human trafficking work since 2010. Long story short, I moved to East Africa to help an aftercare organization startup and when we started developing these programs, I looked to the research. What works? What are the proven models, the best practices, and how do we measure? How do we show impact? But these things didn’t exist. And it was really hard being in the field, doing this work, without having the tools to measure what’s most effective, and without having data on what do survivors need most. What is most impactful in helping them attain a life of lasting freedom? So the team and I built programs, we found that they were working. Survivors were going back into their community, they were thriving, but we had no measurement tools to show this impact or to prove what parts of our programs were creating that impact.

Sandra Morgan 3:28
So I’ve been in a lot of conversations with donors who want to know what their funds are actually doing in the individual lives of survivors. Donors will say to me, “Well, the anecdotal story is really motivating, brings tears to my eyes, but I want more than one story.” How does this change how we deliver on impact?

Kelsey Morgan 4:02
Sandie, I’ve had the same questions asked of me and of our work, and I think we’re at a critical juncture in the anti trafficking space, where we don’t have important data that’s needed for survivors themselves, for service providers, and for funders and policymakers. Up to this time we’ve been doing interventions, doing programs, trying to help out of passion and good heart, but really without data on what’s most effective. This tool helps philanthropists, helps policymakers, helps funders understand where survivors most needs support, and then it identifies what interventions are most effective in helping survivors attain a life of lasting freedom.

Sandra Morgan 4:43
And tell us the name of the tool and how it started?

Kelsey Morgan 4:49
Yeah, so the tool is called Freedom Life Map and I was introduced to methodology a different way of measurement, through a group called Poverty Stoplight. They were coming out of Paraguay, and their whole start was in microfinance. What they found was that the World Bank’s measures of poverty were all about $1 amount. If you make $1 a day or less, you’re poor, if you make above, you’re not poor. Their experience on the ground was so much more complex than that. They said, “Poverty is multi dimensional.” It’s not just about money, there’s so many factors that impact whether someone’s poor or not. Most of the measurement tools that they were also equipped with, were not a self assessment of the person living in poverty, but with someone else. An outsider getting to decide that person’s fate basically, “Are you poor or are you not poor?,” and also choosing for them. “You need this, you need this, here’s your pathway forward.” So they decided to turn this way of doing development work totally upside down, and to build a multi dimensional measure of what poverty looks like, and then instead of assessing someone else, asking those people living in poverty, to self assess. What are their strengths, and what are their vulnerabilities? I fell in love with this methodology. I think it’s empowering, it’s effective, and we went through a process through UC Irvine of adopting the tool with a global cohort of survivors from around the world. So survivors who had different forms of victimization, different ages, different genders, different geographies, and what we came up with was our own list of what multi-dimensional wellbeing and lasting freedom looks like for survivors. We applied it to this same methodology that applies a self assessment type of data collection.

Sandra Morgan 6:34
And you know I love research. Tell me just a little bit about the validity of that tool that you modeled this after?

Kelsey Morgan 6:45
This tool was also research based. They partnered with UC Irvine to develop the poverty stoplight. It’s been implemented now in 52 countries. The indicator library is also the questions within the tool, were co-created with those with lived experience, just like our tool indicators are co-created with those with lived experience. So that’s where the real validity comes from. It’s that what we say we’re measuring has actually been validated by those who are experiencing it.

Sandra Morgan 7:12
I’m particularly excited about that co-creation methodology, because there’s more and more emphasis on being survivor informed. But people don’t know how to do that, and when you ask someone “Is your program survivor informed?” “Oh, we have a survivor on our board.” But show me some impact data. So that’s what is making this truly, I believe, revolutionary. So let’s talk about the model, and think about the six research based domains of wellbeing that are measured.

Kelsey Morgan 7:57
Yeah. So when we talk about the model, what I like to talk about is the model using the social ecological framework. For those of you listening, just picture concentric circles, so circles inside of one another. This tool aims to have systemic impact by impacting each of these distinct, but interconnected levels, within the space, within the sector fighting human trafficking. So that first level is the survivor themselves. We love this tool because it is survivor centered in every way and meaning of the word. It was co-created with survivors, it is a self assessment where survivors voice is included, and the survivor is the first area of impact that we’re working on with this tool. Survivors come in to a service provider who’s been trained on how to facilitate this tool, and they use our web based platform or our app to self assess across the six dimensions of freedom in the tool. These are research based dimensions, the global cohort that I mentioned, this is all of our hard work, over about a year, we landed on these six domains. Health and sustenance, freedom rights and safety, housing and access, finance, education, and employment, community, connection, and engagement, and mental and emotional well being. Within these six different buckets, there’s about 49 core global indicators. These are questions related to each of those six areas. The survivor self assesses their well being across all of these different questions, and the levels are really simple: red, yellow, and green.

Sandra Morgan 9:32
Red, yellow, and green. So I don’t even need to be able to read. I can take this assessment with someone who just asks me the questions and I mark the color.

Kelsey Morgan 9:46
Yes, exactly. Each level is illustrated.

Sandra Morgan 9:49
I’ve got another question now. You know, I’ve been a nurse, I have a lot of assessment skills. I look at somebody, and they tell me they’re fine, and I know they are not fine. So what if the person doing the assessment disagrees with the person who’s self assessing?

Kelsey Morgan 10:16
Well, it’s really important data for us to see how someone self assesses, and from all of our organizations piloting the tool, this has not been a barrier, it’s actually a really amazing opportunity that opens up a door for conversation. So at the end of the assessment, the case manager may sit with them and say, “Hey, I see you marked green here, tell me why. Why are you filling green in this area?” And they get important data, because ultimately, if we’re trying to push clients, so cases that we’re working on, in a direction, but they don’t agree with us on the direction that we’re going in, we’re not going to make progress anyways. So we need to have the self assessment. Where does this person see themselves at, and then we meet them where they are. That’s where we start opening up conversations. We know in this sector anyways, many survivors who come into our programs don’t know that they’re a survivor at that point,

Sandra Morgan 11:06
They haven’t even disclosed what’s been happening to them. So this is one aspect that I really love, that was kind of a trick question. Sometimes, because we want to do so much for someone, we make the mistake of not allowing them to be in the driver’s seat, and then when they leave, and they get derailed. We think, “What did I do wrong? What did they do wrong? And that wasn’t really the issue.” When people are empowered, they’re going to be able to make better progress, because it’s more self motivated. Let’s go through each of those domains and give me some examples of what we’re looking for.

Kelsey Morgan 12:05
So for example, in the first domain of health and sustenance, a survivor might get asked a question around their access to health care. It’s not just about, “Can you access health care?” it’s about, “Do you maybe know how to access health care, and is the health care that you can access actually meeting your healthcare needs.?” So that would be green, that they know how to get health care, and that the health care they’re getting meets their needs. Yellow would be one of the two. So maybe they know how, but the health care they can access doesn’t meet their needs. Red would be, they don’t know how to access to health care, and therefore they don’t have any health care to meet their needs.

Sandra Morgan 12:47
So that blows up some myths, when you’re in a community and you say, “Well, we have all of this opportunity.” But if you’re talking to a survivor who doesn’t own a car in Orange County, getting to those clinics, on public transportation, I actually took a bus so I could have the experience myself, to go to a location seven and a half miles away, took me two hours and 45 minutes. Now if I’m a young survivor with a child, for two hours and 45 minutes to get to a clinic, that’s not going to be a green light for me.

Kelsey Morgan 13:30
It’s not, and a lot of our existing tools out there are all about access. It’s like, do you have access to a bank? “Yeah, I have access to a bank, but maybe no one’s ever taught me how to actually use the bank, or what it looks like. Or maybe I don’t feel confident to walk into that bank, because no one’s ever told me how it works.” So we do have to be measuring so much more than just access and what’s available in the community. We’re looking at knowledge, we’re looking at attitudes, we’re looking at behaviors with these different indicators.

Sandra Morgan 13:59
So what are we looking for when we’re in the domain of freedom, rights, and safety?

Kelsey Morgan 14:06
Yeah, so this is obviously an important domain for the population that we’re working with, but shockingly enough, the initial pilot data that’s come out, survivors find themselves strongest in this domain. We have to keep in mind, they’re taking this assessment when they’re in a service providers program already. So usually, if they’re receiving services, they are free from abuse, hopefully, at that time, if they’re in a safe shelter. We’ve done a lot of work in this space in the legal domain. We’ve invested a lot of funds into that, we’ve made some significant progress. One of the examples from our tool is legal services. So that’s a question in the freedom rights and safety domain. It talks about having legal services and accessing support that meets your legal needs.

Sandra Morgan 14:56
What kind of legal needs could somebody have when they’ve just been moved out of slavery?

Kelsey Morgan 15:02
So many. Yhe list is very long as we know Sandie, it could be clearing your legal record, you may have charges against you, that happened as a result of your victimization. You could need help pursuing justice. If you want to pursue justice against your trafficker, you may need a visa, you may need some support with your immigration, maybe you’ve been trafficked across borders and you need help there. You may need help with custody of your children, or you may want to go through a divorce, maybe you are legally married to your exploiter.

Sandra Morgan 15:33
Wow, a lot of legal issues.

Kelsey Morgan 15:36
Yes.

Sandra Morgan 15:37
So the next domain: housing and access. There’s that word access again.

Kelsey Morgan 15:44
Access is a kind of all encompassing word in our tool for the different services a survivor may need. So this could be access to transportation, to communication, like the internet or having a phone. One specific example I can give here is having a safe and stable living situation. The green in this indicator would be that you feel safe in the place where you live, and that if you’re in your current living situation, it’s stable, or you know what’s coming next. We know for many survivors, their living situation could be very unstable. They may be in a safe place that day, but they may not know what’s happening in the next week or the next month, and so this is all about helping survivors achieve stability.

Sandra Morgan 16:28
And that’s such an important aspect. I remember a scholarship student here, who was struggling, and after a conversation, the problem wasn’t where she was right now, it was thinking when the semester ends in two weeks, where will I live? It wasn’t on our checklist.

Kelsey Morgan 16:58
It’s on no checklists out there. Really most of our checklists, most of our tools out there are very short. They’re not comprehensive of what a survivor needs, they’re all looking at their levels of trauma. How traumatized are you? How bad is your PTSD?

Sandra Morgan 17:14
Oh my goodness, trauma informed. Okay, so we maybe went a little bit down a rabbit hole. It’s so focuse on the trauma, to not think about just the practicalities.

Kelsey Morgan 17:27
And what makes our tool so practical, Sandie, is that every adaptation that we’ve done in this tool, survivors are at the table during that adaptation. So each indicator has direct input from survivors on, “What are your challenges with living, with housing? What are the issues you face?” So each indicators levels are contextualized in the places where they’re implemented, so that they really directly meet the needs of the survivors. The language is contextualized into simple language that’s understandable. We had one staff using the tool at a service provider who said that the way the tool was worded helped them build rapport with the survivors they were serving because the survivor said it was like they were speaking their language, finally,

Sandra Morgan 18:13
Oh, that’s so good. Okay, the next domain. I loved when I read this, because so many times, we only think about money and jobs, but this domain is finance, education, and employment. That, for me, embodies a future, that’s going to get better because you’re training, you’re going to school, you’re building a future.

Kelsey Morgan 18:45
Yes. So this domain is the domain with the highest level of vulnerability across all of the locations where the tool has been piloted, and it’s also the domain with the highest number of priorities. So we didn’t talk about this yet, but at the end of the assessment, survivors see all of their indicators, so all of their reds, yellows, and greens, mapped out on what’s called a life map. From there, they’re asked to set priorities. The facilitator may say, what’s most important to you now? What do you need right now? Then the tool prompts them to click on the area that’s most important, and it pulls up a prompt that says, “What have been your barriers? How can we help you make progress? And what’s the goal? What kind of goal timeline do you want to set to make progress here?” Across the board, in every location, finance, education, and employment has the most reds and yellows, and also the most priorities. One example is savings. There’s an indicator about savings, green would be “I consistently save some of my money in a safe place.” And this is the single most red indicator around the world.

Sandra Morgan 19:53
I could probably say that about a lot of people in my community of friends. Savings. Wow.

Kelsey Morgan 19:59
But it is so important. I think the top three we saw were savings, income, and money management here in Orange County, and it’s important. We know that survivors intimately know that they need a job, they need to be financially stable. That is their first step for many of them, that’s what they’re thinking. “How am I going to make ends meet right now, today, tomorrow?” And a lot of the time, we’re not addressing that in our programs, we’re not helping survivors see a plan for the future, we’re not focused on education, economic empowerment, and we’re not doing so in a way that’s working.

Sandra Morgan 20:36
So how does Orange County contrast with that domain when you were in Uganda doing this just recently?

Kelsey Morgan 20:46
This domain is about the same level of vulnerability and priorities in Orange County, Uganda, and the Philippines.

Sandra Morgan 20:52
So the transfer ability between cultures is really a significant difference maker here.

Kelsey Morgan 21:00
It really is, and many people were skeptical about, “How can this tool work across so many different places? Aren’t the experiences of survivors so different?,” and our global cohort was so aligned. We came to consensus really quickly about what needed to be in the tool, despite, like I said, form of trafficking, gender, age, where they were in the world. What they all said consistently was, “Every single indicator in this tool is important, just at different points of our journey.” So they didn’t want to take anything out. We actually pulled a couple indicators apart, turning them into two indicators for those that were really important, or maybe were trying to pack too much into one. But it helps us, this data is really helpful for the philanthropist, as you spoke of, or for the policymaker to understand. Okay, we’ve been fighting human trafficking officially since 2000, we’re still a young movement, but we don’t have any data around where should we really be investing our funds? Right. And so you can see globally trend right there, finance, education, and employment. We need to find those programs that are working and this tool can do that. Because when the assessment is taken over time, you start to see, this program in the Philippines, wow, in six months, survivors are moving from red to green in income, or red to green in education. What’s working, what are they doing? Then we package up that program, and we can quickly start scaling work, and that’s been the problem in our sector were really siloed. I hate using that word, because it’s overused, but it’s true. We don’t have a common language for collaboration, so we’re moving really slowly. Now that we have this data set, we can finally speak the same language. All the service providers can get down with their dashboard of data, and we’ve done this it was super exciting. We had three countries represented, seated around a table here in Orange County, and they’re saying, “Oh, look, we’re red here. We’re green here. What do you have? What are you doing?,” and organically, it started to happen. They’re organically sharing programs and it’s like the speed of light. We’re seeing programs being scaled, just by introducing a common tool, a common ruler, as John Richmond calls it. This is our new ruler for how we measure progress.

Sandra Morgan 23:17
You can’t manage something you can’t measure. That’s old, old, tried and true law. Okay, next sector domain, community, connection, and belonging.

Kelsey Morgan 23:32
This is such an important one, and one of the indicators in the tool I can point to is a social safety net. So we know, as researchers, that the number one protective factor for preventing abuse is a social safety net. So someone you can call in time of need, who’s going to be there to support you, and that’s what this indicator is talking about. Red, which we do see a lot of reds and yellows in the tool around this area, that they don’t have a supportive person they can rely on, but this is actionable. That’s the other part of the tool that’s important to mention. Every indicator in the tool is meant to be actionable, so there’s something the individual, or the organization, or the community can do to support progress in this indicator. Like I said, we’re not trying to measure what’s your PTSD level, what’s your level of depression, we’re saying, “How can we help you make progress practically?”

Sandra Morgan 24:28
That’s so good, mental and emotional well being.

Kelsey Morgan 24:32
Yes, so this dimension is also very important. Survivors are finding a lot of strength in this area, which is exciting. While there is support needed, there are certain indicators that are trending more red. Overall, I believe survivors are walking into environments, at least those piloting the tool where these services are available, or they do have support available. So going back to your talk about trauma informed care, we have done some good work I think, as a sector. There’s much more work to do but we do have services available in many places in this dimension. One example from the tool I can give is mental and emotional health, and this is about being aware of your mental and emotional health needs, and that if you’re receiving support that support meets those needs. So we often find that survivors will walk into a program and it’s like, “Hey, we have art therapy, so that’s what you do. You do art therapy.” I had one survivor tell me that she had no confidence in her ability to do art, so art therapy was so anxiety producing for her, it had the opposite effect.

Sandra Morgan 25:47
That would be me. I can’t draw a straight line, let alone a circle.

Kelsey Morgan 25:52
So again, it’s not about do you have access to mental and emotional health? It’s, do you know what your needs are? And is the care available actually meeting those needs?

Sandra Morgan 26:01
Wow. Okay, so I have listeners in 148 countries, and I know, I’m going to get an email that says, “How can I access this? Where is it? Has it been here?” So you’re rolling this out slowly, it’s in process, you still have to write your dissertation, right? Yes. So what countries have you piloted it in now?

Kelsey Morgan 26:30
Let’s hope I can remember them all off the top of my head. So we have here in Orange County, in the US, we have Uganda, the Philippines, Bolivia, Mexico, Kenya, and Cambodia.

Sandra Morgan 26:43
Wow. So I what I really like about that is those are variable kinds of cultures, economic situations, so it’s not all being tested in the same environment, same temperature. But you’re using this social ecology model. Can you explain why that’s so critical to the implementation of this?

Kelsey Morgan 27:12
Yes. Our goal with this is to create systemic change, and so you can’t look at just one part of the equation when you’re looking at systemic change. We’ve done some work into understanding what are the different levels that we’re targeting, impacting, and what is the impact at each different level? So the first level we talked a lot about on this, which is the survivor. Our goal there is that more survivors access the care that they need, that is the impact of Freedom Lifemap. The second level, there’s quite a lot of people represented here, but it’s frontline responders, it’s communities, it’s caseworkers, social workers, and our real impact here is that they understand and are then able to best scale what’s working for survivors. Care that really meets their needs. The last level that’s super important and interconnected is the global anti trafficking environment. So that’s where funding decisions are made, policies are made, that’s where the agenda is set, then we often, in development, have a top down model. Those up top are setting the agenda with no information from those whose lives it’s impacting, and this data is direct from the grassroots. It’s a bottom up model and this data allows us to strengthen our systems, our programs, to empower survivors towards freedom and to proactively prevent human trafficking. This is where funders get data that they need, policymakers get data that they need, and we can use this data not only to best support survivors, to scale programs, but to go upstream and start to understand better what are those vulnerabilities so that we can prevent human trafficking.

Sandra Morgan 28:54
I love that. One of my favorite quotes in another conversation that you and I had was when a survivor who had participated in the pilot study said that in 30 minutes, the tool accomplished what would have taken a case manager years to understand about them. Can you expand on that?

Kelsey Morgan 29:21
That quote makes me so happy because our goal driving us in this project was to make the work more effective and more efficient. So we know that less than 1% of victims ever access care and we have a very limited number of beds, of case managers who can do this work. So if it’s taking a case manager years to understand the needs of a survivor, it’s going to take them years and years to get through a program. If we can more quickly meet the needs, that’s so much better for the survivor. They’re not telling their story over and over again, they’re doing their Life Map Assessment. They’re getting practical solutions and then they’re making progress more quickly or more effectively. It allows us to serve more survivors and to better scale what’s working.

Sandra Morgan 30:08
And it’s an iterative process, so the survivor can come and say, “I think I’ve made progress. I want to do my life map again,” right?

Kelsey Morgan 30:18
Yep. Every six months is how we’re piloting it now. They take the assessment, then they get connected to those resources and services they’re asking for, then they reassess in six months, and this is where all of the celebration happens. We’ve had survivors say, “Wow, I didn’t know I had so many greens.” They’re so excited to see, visually get to see progress. Or for organizations who maybe think they’re doing a great job, they’re telling really good success stories. They may say, “Oh, wow. We thought we’re helping, but we’re really not. What do we need to do differently?” So this tool isn’t a punitive tool, it’s really meant to empower service providers, as well as survivors, so that they can do the good work they want to do and have data on what’s working.

Sandra Morgan 31:01
Wow, Kelsey, our time is just about up. What I would like to ask you now is, what do you want to see a year from now? And you can’t say my dissertation finished.

Kelsey Morgan 31:17
Well, that has to be done, that’s not a question. I would love to see a real global adoption of this methodology. I would like to see the anti trafficking space excited about data, collaborating with this data. I would love to see many, many organizations adopting this tool and funders, more funders, backing it. We’ve had some really great funding so far, funders are excited about it, but we need more if we’re going to be able to scale this to the world.

Sandra Morgan 31:50
And I would be remiss if I didn’t make a shout out to the UCI Blum Center. Can you just in one sentence, tell us how important they’ve been to your journey?

Kelsey Morgan 32:03
I love UCI, we’re all about science in action. Richard Matthew is my advisor on my dissertation, he has been a catalytic force in supporting this, and Angela Robinson is a postdoc researcher who’s a co-creator of the tool. She just got back from Paraguay where she was presenting on the work. It’s a real dream team of academics who do not keep their work in the ivory tower. This is all about empowering grassroots organizations with the tools that they need, and it’s an amazing partner.

Sandra Morgan 32:38
So Kelsey, how can listeners find you?

Kelsey Morgan 32:42
You can find me through EverFree, that’s the name of our organization. EverFree.org, our website, or our Instagram are the easiest places to look.

Sandra Morgan 32:51
I recommend that you follow Kelsey on Instagram so you see the amazing things that are happening out of her leadership. Thank you so much for being here today.

Kelsey Morgan 33:03
Thank you, Sandie.

Sandra Morgan 33:05
So go on over to our endinghumantrafficking.org website to find the show notes with links to the resources we’ve mentioned, and so much more. There is the anti human trafficking certificate. We’re gearing up for the Ensure Justice Conference coming March 1st and 2nd of 2024. And if you’ve never visited our site before, become a subscriber and you’ll get an email every two weeks with the latest episode. Thanks, everybody. See you in two weeks.

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Dr. Sandra Morgan is joined by Ioana Bauer. In this episode the two discuss European Perspectives on ending human trafficking procedures.

Key Points* Ioana Bauer received the first ever Amplify award at this year’s Amplify Luncheon. * Prostitution was recently recognized as a form of violence against women by the European Union. * It’s important to use accurate terminology, like “CSO” (Civil Society Organization) because it reframes something from a negative. * Multiple items of legislation, recommendations, and bylaws have made it to their 20th anniversary, raising some concerns about whether or not they should be updated. * A referral mechanism is essentially a helpful roadmap for identifying victims, and guiding them to services/resources in order to access their rights.

Resources* eLiberare * European Union Anti Trafficking Directive * Council of the European Union * OSCE (Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe) * Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights * Palermo Protocol * TVPA * Office of the Special Representative * International Survivors of Trafficking Advisory Council (ISTAC) * National Referral Mechanism * #282: Crisis Prevention of Ukraine Refugee Trafficking, with Ioana Bauer

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:00
You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode #304: European Perspectives, with Ioana Bauer Romania.

Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I am so delighted today to have an in studio guest, Ioana Bauer. She completed her anti-human trafficking certificate through Vanguard University and I’m so proud of her. She’s done all the work, but I just get to be proud. She has been a leader in Romania since 2010 in eradicating human trafficking. She has helped pilot survivor engagement projects nationally, internationally through the UN, and through the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. I’m especially intrigued with the ability she has to impact policy and legislation. She led an initiative in Romania to remove the statute of limitations for the crime of creating online Child Sexual Abuse materials. She’s spearheaded a new award winning protection model compass geared at preventing and identifying trafficking for Ukrainian refugees. We interviewed her about that in episode #282. You can check that and you can also remember what we said about her in her bios. I’m gonna dig right into this and Ioana I’m so happy to have you with us today.

Ioana Bauer 2:27
Thank you so much. It’s amazing to be here. And again, I am awestruck by the fact that I’m in the presence of one of my mentors.

Sandra Morgan 2:35
I’m glad you are here. And just for our listeners, I want you to know, the reason she’s here on site is she was able to attend our Amplify event this weekend, where she was recognized for her important work in the movement, as she received our first ever amplify, award. The theme of amplify is “Every Person, Every Action.” We want to amp up our energy and our resources in combating human trafficking. We want every person, every action to count. So congratulations on receiving that award.

Ioana Bauer 3:22
Thank you so much.

Sandra Morgan 3:24
So I’m particularly interested in better understanding what’s happening in the European Union. I was with a friend last week, and they were excited they were getting WhatsApp notices from the EU, the European Union, about a resolution that had just passed regarding prostitution. Can you give us some insight?

Ioana Bauer 3:47
Yeah, last week was a moment of celebration in the European Union as far as the anti trafficking movement goes, because although it is a non binding legal document, this resolution talks about prostitution, and it recognizes it as a form of violence against women. If we look at prostitution, 90% of the people who are victimized through it, are women and girls. Then if we look at sex trafficking, so human trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation, 87% of the victims are women and girls. Therefore, it’s important to have the right terminology and to look at prostitution an its role that it plays in this. So with this resolution, what we’re seeing is that no MEP’s voted on the fact that prostitution is violence against women. They voted on the fact that we should not blame the victims, we should not look at the people who are pushed into this either by circumstances or other people, but we should actually look at the other factor that oftentimes goes unnoticed, respectively, the demand. Who are the people who are willing to pay for the exploitation of others? So this resolution is providing different provisions, it’s basically recommendations that the states should look at how to protect victims, how to make sure that we’re not putting the burden on the vulnerable people to not be vulnerable anymore, and it’s also looking at exit programs, services that people can access, and basically alternative.

Sandra Morgan 5:28
Okay, so this resolution is actually a docket of recommendations for governments. It doesn’t actually have any legislative power, but it does build our collective agreement on what next steps need to be taken. Is that a good understanding?

Ioana Bauer 5:53
It is. And I think more than that, it should also be seen as a statement that was made because this was voted, right? Members of the European Parliament came and voted and the majority of them said, “Yes, we agree with what is in here.”

Sandra Morgan 6:09
Okay. And you used another acronym that isn’t part of my US vocabulary, I think you called them MEPs. Tell us what that means.

Ioana Bauer 6:22
Oh, my goodness, yes. And this is something that we all suffer from when we work too long in a certain field. So MEPs simply means Members of the European Parliament,

Sandra Morgan 6:33
Okay, MEP: Members of the European Parliament. And it’s so good for us to begin to understand what’s happening globally, because the intersection, the overlaps from one country, from one continent, from one culture, can be impacting others. We also share what we learn, our shared knowledge comes from shared experiences. But all these acronyms, I think, today, we’re going to have a little bit of a lesson on acronyms. So a eLiberare, actually I never can say it right, say it correctly.

Ioana Bauer 7:16
eLiberare.

Sandra Morgan 7:17
eLiberare is a CSO, so tell us what a CSO is.

Ioana Bauer 7:23
A CSO would be used interchangeably with NGO, which might be an acronym that you’re more familiarized with. But it means Civil Society Organization,

Sandra Morgan 7:34
And Civil Society Organization terminology is becoming more common. It actually reframes something from a negative. If we say non governmental, we’re actually creating some divide between who’s doing what, but civil society organizations are coming to the table in the public square. I like the move to that kind of terminology so I have started using CSO, but I forget to explain why I’m using it.

Ioana Bauer 8:14
And I think another thing that we can look at is the power behind it, because another way of saying this, referring to the civil society is the third sector. It’s finally recognizing the power that we have to come at the table as organizations that are working on different issues, and to have our voices heard.

Sandra Morgan 8:34
I like that. So I have also been learning more about the European Union Anti-Trafficking Directive, I looked at it some time back and then recently learned that that framework is being revised. I’m curious what that process is, what the goals are, and where we are on that, because I know it will help us in other parts of the world.

So the process is pretty lengthy and I’m going to try to put that in just a nugget.

This is a short podcast. People have to be able to get to work before the end of it.

Ioana Bauer 9:16
So the European Commission comes out, proposes the revision. They’re being discussed in the Council of the European Union, which is basically different stakeholders from the member states who will vote on this, and then the revision will actually be adopted and become another piece of legislation this directive specifically. So right now, where we are in the process is that the European Commission proposed changes to this particular legislation that, in a way, governs the legal framework for anti-trafficking in Europe. This is very important, why? Because we’ve waited a very long time for this change to happen. The directive came out in 2012 and if we look at the field, that’s an extremely long time to actually not look and not revise legislation that governs how we deal in this particular field. It looks at prevention, it looks at prosecutions, it looks even at the types of human trafficking that are recognized as a form of this crime. So it’s long overdue. Also, it would have been interesting to see if we didn’t just need a new directive, but that’s, as you said, a discussion for another time. I’m creating here space for you to invite me again to speak on it. But basically, what we’re looking at is how do we update the legislation, first of all? How do we bring it into the present days? Also, one thing that I want to look at is how do we inform this piece of legislation with the survivors who have actually suffered through this form of crime, specifically in Europe? And then, how do we check some of the obligations that have been brought by the first form and are still not realized? So for example, in 2012, the directive was talking about a uniform set of indicators, right? As you know, in Europe, the different legislations from the different member states can make it so that in a country, a person who is in a form of exploitation is a victim and can access services, but in another one, they could be treated as a perpetrator because the legislative framework is not uniform, and the indicators are not the same. In a way, it creates this imbalance and almost the discrimination of victims of human trafficking, depending on the place of their exploitation. So this is high time for us to look at some of these inconsistencies, and figure out how to fix them because ultimately, we need to share the responsibility among member states, and figure out how to make this a level playing field and give all victims of human trafficking, the same “opportunity” to be identified, to access services, and to be referred forward so that they can go to the next phase of their healing process.

Sandra Morgan 12:19
Okay, so how many member states are we talking about?

Ioana Bauer 12:22
27.

Sandra Morgan 12:23
27 member states. So finding agreement between 27 different countries, with various cultures, and various resources is part of the challenge, because it’s been more than a decade. 2012, now we’re 2023. So what do we need to encourage to see the successful revision of this framework?

Ioana Bauer 12:54
I think there are several aspects. First of all, we need the CSOs that we talked about earlier, the civil society, to come together and actually contribute from a practitioners standpoint, with the reality of our day to day jobs. Right? I think a lot of times legislators don’t necessarily have the practical experience of working in the field that they’re legislating in. This is not a problem and it’s not only in Europe, right? A lot of times decision makers aren’t necessarily subject experts, subject matter experts in all of the things that they need to legislate on. So how can we become a resource and make sure that the experience from the grassroots, from the day to day, from the trenches, so to speak, is actually mirrored in the measures that are being put in place? We also need to make sure that we invite survivors at the table. Because too many times, what we’re doing is we’re talking about survivors instead of inviting them into the conversation, listening, and learning from them. Then also, I think we need to figure out the realistic goals. So rather than talking about this utopic or ideal situation, we need to figure out what is doable right now, in this context. If we look at Europe, we’re facing some challenges that are unprecedented in recent history, right? We’re seeing the biggest moves of people since the Second World War because of the Ukrainian humanitarian crisis and war of aggression of Russia against Ukraine. So that’s really changing the way that we’re looking at things and it’s shifting the dynamics. So we need to take that into consideration. Europe has become a producer of online child sexual exploitation material. So if before the framework was just looking at the people who are maybe paying for this or the different servers that were hosting this, now, we’re seeing that these are new challenges. So how do we actually make sure that what we’re revising right now, and it took us 12 years to get to this point, right, almost 12 years, how do we make sure that it’s going to be valid next year? So how do you have one: the reality of the field reflected, but two: the foresight to actually understand the measures that are being needed for both the prevention piece, the prosecution piece, and the protection piece?

Sandra Morgan 15:27
Okay, wow. That is very clear and I hope as a listener, you’re thinking about how those elements can be integrated in your local conversations. From the perspective, one more acronym. The way I understand it, there is one more organization that is leading substantive change in this area. OSCE, what does that acronym pertain to?

Ioana Bauer 16:04
We really do love our acronyms in this field, right? So Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, is actually this body that also has not one, but two portfolios leading on anti trafficking. One would be the SR, here’s another acronym for you, the Special Representative on Anti-Human trafficking, and this seats under the secretary in Vienna. Then the Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights, which is in Warsaw, also has an advisor on human trafficking. So these two bodies have led different reforms. What’s interesting about the OSC, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, is that it actually has 57 Member States, which means that the different policy papers or different recommendations that are going out, are going out and informing 57 governments, including the US government, so not just EU states, but also larger European states and the United States.

Sandra Morgan 17:09
Wow. Okay, let’s talk about the specific areas under OSCE that pertain to anti human trafficking. What are they?

Ioana Bauer 17:21
I think one thing that is worth mentioning, and this is an observation that could work globally actually, the OSC Action Plan on Anti-Human Trafficking, has just marked its 20th anniversary. So some of the main pieces of legislation, or recommendations, or bylaws that we’re using to guide us in this movement are 20, or more than 20 years old, right? I’m sure that you’ve discussed the Palermo Protocol, which is the main UN legislation, that’s also 20 years plus. I’m sure you’ve talked about the TVPA, which is legislation here in the US, and how that has also marked its 20th anniversary a few years ago, actually. So what we’re seeing is that we need to update those things. The action plan on addressing trafficking in human beings, THB, another acronym, that sits under the OSC and was one of its guiding documents, I got to speak at the 20th anniversary of it. In a way, it was both a momentous occasion to understand that some of the provisions are still standing, and it was also extremely concerning, because some of the challenges mentioned they are still very much valid today. So in a way, I think it’s a good moment to assess and figure out what are the things that will move the needle, right, that will help us make strides in our work and in our efforts? Whether we’re talking about the role of CSO, the role of civil society organizations, how do they actually have an equal seat at the table, and they’re not just being called in whenever it’s comfortable, or just to make sure that we check another representative at a certain event? But how do we make sure that the work and the voice is valued, and it’s taken into consideration? It talks about the need for collaboration when it comes to the pathways of identifying victims. This brings me to one of the greatest challenges that we’re facing in the movement, the fact that we’re actually identifying less than 1% of victims globally. The plan covers all these things and it works on it and the role of the Office of the Special Representative, the way that I understand it, is to actually help states put in place legislation or different provisions, to make sure that things are moving, that we’re moving the needle as mentioned. Then the ending trafficking advisor that’s sitting under the Office for Democratic Institution and Human Rights, is leading on the human dimension of it. So it actually houses the International Survivors of Trafficking Advisory Council (ISTAC), which has a number of survivors. I’m proud to say that one of my colleagues from eLiberare, the member for this cohort. It really gives survivors a seat at the table, and allows them to speak into the different recommendations and different policy papers that are going out to 57 states. The governments of 57 countries are looking at what the survivors have to say, which I think is extremely important. It’s a good practice model that should be kept. It also does trainings. I was extremely honored to be a part of the training team that got to train on the first responders in the Ukrainian crisis. It’s doing trainings on how to identify potential cases of human trafficking, and it also owns the concept of a national referral mechanism with the different pillars and the different elements of it.

Sandra Morgan 21:25
Okay, so define a national referral mechanism.

Ioana Bauer 21:31
So the easiest way to explain this without using more acronyms, is to actually think of it as the victims journey. A national referral mechanism looks at everything from indicators, what are the signs, the warning signs that we should look for? How do we actually detect and notify a case? So, figuring out how to pass on information towards law enforcement. If the victim wants to cooperate, figure out the justice piece. It looks at the services that a victim can be referred towards. It looks at the statute of a victim, like what makes somebody, a presumed or a certified victim of human trafficking, which is key in order for them to access their rights, and to be able to be referred towards services. Then it looks at what does rehabilitation look like? What does it mean? It looks at justice in a way that’s more than just the criminal justice, other ways of redress, and so on. So literally, if you think of a victim’s journey towards becoming a survivor, towards thriving, towards becoming somewhat autonomous, which should be the goal, eventually, a national referral mechanism should cover all that journey.

Sandra Morgan 23:01
Sounds like a roadmap.

Ioana Bauer 23:03
That’s a great way to explain it.

Sandra Morgan 23:04
Yeah. Well, I’m borrowing that from some of our protocols here in California and our task forces. So I want to go back and revisit one of the arms of the OSCE, the Office for Democratic Institutions, and Human Rights. I know we don’t have much time left, but I really do believe that the focus on human rights is a major contributor to how we build more momentum and understand that we are focused in a victim centered approach on building capacity for someone to access their human rights, to understand that they do have human rights. Yes, we want to put the perpetrators away, we want someone to suffer criminal justice, but as you mentioned in the referral mechanism process, our goal is to restore someone’s human rights so that they can be autonomous. I think that includes restitution. Without an understanding of the person and their human rights, we’re all part of the same human race. So that was a really long way to get back to this and give you two sentences to answer

Ioana Bauer 24:54
You speak about this oftentimes, right? I think a good example is is to look at human trafficking not just for the purpose of sexual exploitation, but also look at human trafficking for labor exploitation, for example. In those cases, just by talking to victims of this particular form of the crime, I know that getting their money for what they’ve worked is something extremely, extremely important for those people. Oftentimes, in a lot of countries, especially in the European Union, that means civil justice, it doesn’t mean criminal justice. So that’s why we need to look at it holistically. I think another concept that we should explore more is the kaleidoscopic justice, where we’re also looking at how do we make sure that there’s justice in the community for the victims? How do we ensure they’re not being blamed? Like victim blaming, taking that away. Figuring out how we create spaces in which victims and survivors are actually being listened to when it comes to what makes them feel like they are being treated justly, and that their rights are respected. Then the other piece, I’ll count that as one sentence, the second one would be the point on actually teaching people their rights. This should start at a very, very early age. We need to make sure that education starts even in the elementary school, right? We discuss about this because with victims of human trafficking, unfortunately, a lot of them, the normalcy that they experience is one of abuse and exploitation from a very early age. So telling them that this is your right without actually explaining how that works and how they can access those rights, is not necessarily helpful. So how do we put hands and feet and make this concept of justice extremely graspabl for everyone?

Sandra Morgan 27:02
That’s so good. I think that the ISTAC, International Survivors of Trafficking Advisory Council, are really helpful in helping us develop and understand the process. How many survivors serve on that advisory council?

Ioana Bauer 27:26
I believe it’s anywhere between 22 and 24, but you would have to check. You would have to go and research and I actually encourage you to do so because their work is super interesting. Reading their bios, and finding out more will also give you an answer to this question.

Sandra Morgan 27:43
I kind of have an ulterior motive in asking that question. Because sometimes, I’ve observed, I’m not like calling anybody out, but people are encouraged to have survivor leaders so an organization, a government, whatever, will say, “Oh, we have a survivor.” You have one survivor. Maybe, if your budget allows, and you’re able to, you have three survivors. But the idea that survivors from different countries, cultures, and continents, may not have the same experience, you might be missing some input that would help make your response more holistic and complete. The size of this advisory council, I really feel is an advantage. We can’t afford to have 22, 25 survivor advisors here at the Global Center for Women and Justice, so I want to learn from that community and this is a way I can do that.

Ioana Bauer 28:57
Absolutely. I think one thing that’s important to note is that ISTAC comes out with publications. These in a way, become a way of actually being survivor informed and survivor centered, and it doesn’t cost us anything. It just costs us our willingness to learn. The other piece, I think you’ve described tokenistic survivor engagement very, very well, when we have this one person that we always put out that we sometimes, more often than not, ask them to tell their stories, so on and so forth, just so we can check and feel better about ourselves or our organization. Because look at us, right? We have a survivor leader or an expert by experience. But I think we need to learn from such examples such as ISTAC that has survivors of sexual exploitation, survivors of labor exploitation, and how it actually engages with the survivors in a very meaningful way.

Sandra Morgan 29:54
Wow, okay. I just looked at the clock and we are out of time. I want to remind you that you can go back and listen to this interview with Ioan #282, to learn more about Compass and Ukraine. We have so much to learn. I’m going to get links to everything that we’ve talked about here to put in the show notes. But the first place I’m going to go, is to complete my homework. I’ve just been assigned to go and look at the ISTAC web page, to read and to understand and learn more about who is there, because their expertise, their lived experience is important to all of us. I can’t thank you enough for joining us. I’m excited to keep this relationship and partner with you. For those listening, we’re inviting you to take the next step, go over to endinghumantrafficking.org. That’s where you can find the resources we’ve mentioned and so much more. You can take a look at the anti-human trafficking certificate program that Ioana completed, and find out what you can do and join our community by becoming a subscriber. We’ll see you again in two weeks.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Dr. Melissa Farley. The two discuss the issues surrounding the legalization of prostitution.

Dr. Melissa FarleyDr. Melissa Farley. She’s a feminist psychologist who has authored or co-authored 52 peer reviewed articles on trauma, healthcare, prostitution, pornography, and sex trafficking as well as two books, “Prostitution, Trafficking and Traumatic Stress” and “Prostitution and Trrafficking in Nevada: Making the Connections.” Her research and publications have been used by governments in South Africa, Cambodia, Canada, France, New Zealand, Ghana, Sweden, United Kingdom, and the United States for education and policy development on prostitution and trafficking. Dr. Farley founded Prostitution Research and Education, a nonprofit research institute, which disseminates educational materials by survivors and others who contribute to the movement to abolish prostitution.

Main Points* Prostitution, pornography, and trafficking are linked and are difficult to separate because they all affect each other. * Research should include survivor voices and cultural representation from leaders and experts should be a part of the process. * Trafficking is essentially pimping, and in simple terms is the control of one human being by another who uses them for the purpose of making money by selling them for sexual use. * The common narrative that permeates the nuanced issue of prostitution, and it is often pushed by the pimps themselves, is that most people engage in prostitution voluntarily but there are few who have been trafficked. * Prostitution is not a freely made choice because coercive control is involved and social conditions that surround an individual. * When prostitution is legalized, the stigma around it remains.

Resources* Prostitution, Trafficking and Traumatic Stress by Melissa Farley * Prostitution and Trafficking in Nevada: Making the Connections by Melissa Farley * Prostitution Research and Education * Federal US Trafficking Victim Protection Act * Project SWOP * Episode #197, with Dr. Donna Hughes * No on K * SAGE: Standing Against Global Exploitation * Safe House San Francisco * Episode #219, with Bradley Myles * Traffic Jamming Blog

TranscriptSandra Morgan 0:00
You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode #303: Prostitution Research with Dr. Melissa Farley.

Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. We’re going to have a conversation with Dr. Melissa Farley. She’s a feminist psychologist who has authored or co-authored 52 peer reviewed articles on trauma, healthcare, prostitution, pornography, and sex trafficking as well as two books, “Prostitution, Trafficking and Traumatic Stress” and “Prostitution and Trrafficking in Nevada: Making the Connections.” Her research and publications have been used by governments in South Africa, Cambodia, Canada, France, New Zealand, Ghana, Sweden, United Kingdom, and the United States for education and policy development on prostitution and trafficking. Dr. Farley founded Prostitution Research and Education, a nonprofit research institute, which disseminates educational materials by survivors and others who contribute to the movement to abolish prostitution. Dr. Farley has also been a speaker at the Global Center for Women and Justice’s Ensure Justice Conference. We are so glad to have this conversation. It is such a pleasure to have you with me today Dr. Melissa Farley. Thank you.

Dr. Melissa Farley 2:25
I am so happy to be here, Sandie Morgan. It’s been many, many years. When we first met and began working on this challenging human rights abuse. But it’s a pleasure. Thanks.

Sandra Morgan 2:41
Well, you have been doing prostitution research for how many years?

Dr. Melissa Farley 2:48
We have been doing research on prostitution and pornography and trafficking because they’re so linked, we’ve found you can’t separate them. We’ve been doing research on those things for 25 years now with many, many, many other people. It’s not just prostitution research, and our team, but it’s lots of partners.

Sandra Morgan 3:13
I think that’s one of the things I really admire about your research, is it is very connected, related, survivor voices are always present, and cultural representation from leaders and experts where you’re doing research are part of the process.

Dr. Melissa Farley 3:41
It’s true, it’s true. We could never have done any of this without the leadership, really, of survivors of the sex trade in all parts of the world. Everything I know and everything we try and communicate comes from that base of their perceptions, and their observations, and their analysis of the sex trade. And I know that’s really important to you too, right, in your work?

Sandra Morgan 4:11
Absolutely, absolutely. We don’t want to do anything for someone without them being part of the process. So let’s start off. If you can give us a glimpse into how you see the overlap of prostitution, pornography, and human trafficking? Those three elements.

Dr. Melissa Farley 4:37
Let me just first say that, after many, many requests from people in the media for an answer to the question, how many people are trafficked anyway? When you use the word trafficking, most of us in the United States, are talking about the federal United States Trafficking Victim Protection Act, which has occasionally been revised since it was first put into effect, but that’s what people are talking about. It’s been my experience, Sandie, I don’t know about you, but people, their eyes roll back in their heads if you start talking about trafficking without defining it. So, over the years, I’ve come to decide, the simplest way to talk about trafficking is to describe what it does. What it does, is it’s pimping. Trafficking, on the ground, in terms of looking at someone’s behavior and the criminal act, it’s pimping. It’s the control of one human being by another who uses them for the purpose of making money by selling them for sexual use. It’s just straight up pimping. Everybody knows what pimping is, few people really know what trafficking is. I use a behavioral definition of trafficking. If you go along with my definition, trafficking is pimping, then the next question is, how many people in the sex trade which includes everything you can think of that has to do with selling sex acts, mainly pictures, no pictures taken, phone sex, massage parlor prostitution, escort prostitution, cell phone prostitution, which just means that somebody puts an ad up for “high end escort” and it just means everybody has a cell phone, the sex buyer, the pimp, and the woman who’s being sold, all have cell phones. If you look at all the different types of prostitution, and types really means the location where it happens, then the question is, how many of those women are pimped? And we have finally done a survey of agencies and governmental reports from Europe and Asia and North America. We called up different NGOs, the service organization NGOs, and we asked them, how many of the people you’re providing services to are under pimp control or under third party control? Because women in the sex trade don’t call them pimps. They call them managers, boyfriends, husbands, girlfriends, friends. They don’t call them pimps, but that’s what they’re doing. So we ask that question of many, many agencies, and many, many official reports. And Sandie, that is a number that is so important to me and it’s so little understood. What we found is that 84% of all adults in prostitution that’s over the age of 18, 84%, are under pimp control. This turns the common idea that most people are in prostitution voluntarily, on its head. Right?

Sandra Morgan 8:39
Right.

Dr. Melissa Farley 8:40
The common narrative put out, I think, by pimps and their allies and friends, the common narrative is that, “well, most people are in prostitution voluntarily, but we have to pay attention to those few that are trafficked.” No, it’s not true. Most people are under pimp control and it’s been that way for quite a while, and it looks like it’s staying that way, very much so. So that connection between pimping or trafficking and prostitution is that it’s usually got a pimp in the picture, of course, and always a sex buyer. So you have a large group of people who are vulnerable because usually, for the most part, they’re female, or they look like females. They’re young, they’re poor, and more often than not, as we know, here in California and in many, many parts of the world, they’re women who are vulnerable because of their immigration status, or their ethnic or cultural identity. So that’s who’s in the sex trade. The simple answer to ‘how is pornography connected to that?’ is, I would say this: the only new thing about pornography is that there’s a camera. Either a camera in a studio, which is the old fashioned way of making pornography, or a webcam, laptop, or cell phone produced pornography, which is most pornography today, is produced at home with a cell phone or laptop.

Sandra Morgan 10:31
Wait, so these big studios that proliferated a decade ago now, are being pushed out of business by every day, Mom and Pop pop ups?

Dr. Melissa Farley 10:43
They’re not mom and pop, they look like Mom and Pop, they’re made to look like the pimp isn’t in the picture. But the fact is, the pimp is very much in the picture. One of the things we’ve just found in a new study of pornography production harms is that a majority of pornography that was produced in Sweden and near Sweden, most of the pornography those 105 men and women produced was filmed without their consent.

Sandra Morgan 11:23
Wow.

Dr. Melissa Farley 11:24
Without their consent by Johns, or by people putting cameras up in hotel rooms and stuff like that. I was surprised by that, so mom and pop doesn’t exist. The amateur porn look, the mom and pop look, is how it’s sold. But there’s there’s a pimp in the picture, much more often than not.

Sandra Morgan 11:48
So the role of control that you used in the definition at the beginning, goes across all of these overlapping elements here. Whether we’re talking about selling pornography, which is still selling a commercial sex act, or if we’re talking about an in person sexual encounter, but control is the overlapping concept that’s involved.

Dr. Melissa Farley 12:23
That’s exactly right, Sandie, and it’s coercive control. It’s not again, you know, the reason we started our organization was to debunk the myths and lies about the sex trade that are put out by sex trade businessman, ie., pimps. One of the lies that’s out there is that it is a freely made choice. The way you and I might figure out, where are we going to meet for a coffee, at Coffee Shop A or B. It’s not a choice like that, it’s a coerced choice, made by extremely vulnerable human beings, who may not have other options. Today when somebody is doing blow jobs at a gas station so they can get a tank of gas to go to a job, if some reporter comes up and asks her, “Hey, what are you doing?,” she might say, “Well, I’m choosing to do this because I want a tank of gas,” but you know, that’s not really a choice. Similarly, when a teenager sells some kind of a sex act in exchange for a McDonald’s hamburger because she’s hungry, or her little brother or sister is hungry, there are many, many teenage girls prostituting that are a primary source of food for their families in the United States today. This is a choice that can be coerced by social conditions like hunger, a lack of housing, wanting to get some nice clothes for yourself or your children. It isn’t always a gun to the head and chains to the ankles. That’s my point, that’s a myth, and that is certainly an extreme form of pimping where you have coercive, violent control. Now, there’s always violence in the background when you have pimping or trafficking or any kind of prostitution, it’s a very violent enterprise. But the coercive control can be a lack of opportunity, a lack of housing, a lack of jobs, a lack of food, or even less visible to the casual observer, for teenagers, it can be a lack of family support and affection and attention. Certainly pimps are smarter than you and I, and any anti-trafficking organization, in knowing how to sweet talk young kids. They know how to do that. There’s a word for that. I call it just the recruiting, love bombing, that is what cults do when they’re trying to get people into a cult. The word for it in Germany is “Romeo pimping.” But it’s a little misleading, because every pimp knows how to do that. That’s their job.

Sandra Morgan 15:54
Let me go back to, you use the word “choice.” I hear this often and I still remember one of the very first interviews that I did with a young woman, when I started working right here in Orange County. She told me how this was her choice because she was helping her boyfriend. It fits that entire paradigm. Over and over again, this idea of choice is used as part of that argument. Now I’m hearing it again, when people are talking about different approaches to legalize prostitution, in order to, and I’m not exactly sure even how to say this out loud, because it bothers me so much, but to respect the choice of the individual. If I have concerns about is it a choice that’s been coerced by an environment of scarcity and the coercive mind games that we’ve talked about before on this podcast, so that this person feels like they are making this decision, but they’re also being manipulated? Where does that fit in to the arguments that we are hearing about legalizing prostitution?

Dr. Melissa Farley 17:37
That’s such an important observation, Sandie. Like you, I hear this every day and twice on Mondays from the pimps and their friends. And I consider pimps and their friends, and sometimes pimps who call themselves sex work advocates, you know, there are a lot of Pimps in those organizations also. I don’t know if you know that the sex workers organizing Project SWOP in California was begun by a woman who has an interstate trafficking conviction. She’s a pimp. She’s friendly, California girl, surfer look, but she’s a pimp and she called herself a sex worker advocate. Sadly, she is no longer alive, but when she was alive, she was a strong, strong advocate for prostitution, and trafficking, of course. But to get back to that question, someone says, “but you’re restricting their choice, Sandie, you can’t tell somebody what to do.” If she says, or he says, “This is my choice, I’m making good money, etc,” here’s how I would respond to that. Does she, or if you’re talking directly to a young person who says ‘I made the choice,’ I wouldn’t argue with somebody who is on the street and saying they made that choice, that’s not the place for the debate. But when a reporter says this, when a sex work advocate says this, when somebody in a meeting is pushing legalized sexual exploitation, what I would say is, “But I have a question for you. Has she been offered the choice not to prostitute?” That’s the question we need to be asking. Because in one short sentence, it focuses in on the utter lack of choice of some young person who is turning tricks out on international Boulevard in Oakland, or Cap Street in San Francisco or online, more often than not. Trafficking is advertised, and prostitution is advertised through online porn. So the question is, do you have options? If you wanted to, if the if the person wanted to, could they access safe housing and food another way? Or are they actually prostituting because they might not have a place to live in next month, if they don’t raise the money from the sex trade from engaging in prostitution? So, that’s one approach.

Sandra Morgan 20:50
And I’ve heard that over and over again. I’ve met moms who say to me, “It’s cold, I have to pay the heating bill. My children are not going to be cold because I don’t want to ‘work.'” Okay, so another argument.

Dr. Melissa Farley 21:11
Let me just say one other thing that I hate about that argument, like they’re making the choice to prostitute. If you object to that assumption that the choice is made, oftentimes, somebody will back down a little bit and they’ll say, “Yeah, yeah, it’s not the greatest thing in the world, but there are a lot of unpleasant jobs Sandie. Who likes working at McDonald’s? I’m sure your boss gives you a hard time at Vanguard sometimes. You know, we all have difficult jobs.” We can go down that road, too.

Sandra Morgan 21:53
For sure, for sure. So one of the other arguments that I’ve heard is about how this might help remove some of the organized crime element. I remember a conversation back in episode 197, with Dr. Donna Hughes, a mutual friend of ours. She reported that countries that utilize the legalization approach anticipated getting rid of organized crime, but only succeeded in expanding illegal unregulated prostitution.

Dr. Melissa Farley 22:33
That’s exactly right. And it’s only gotten worse since you interviewed Dr. Hughes, only worse. It always amazes me when people go down that road, Sandie, and say, “well, it would be better.” Here’s how I see that question. That’s really one of the most important questions and the simplest issue to bring up around, ‘Should we legalize prostitution? Or should we help anyone who wants to get out of the sex trade, get out and arrest the perps of the crime, who are sex buyers, pimps and traffickers?’ To address that argument you have to know the answer to the question, “Doesn’t legal prostitution make it at least a little bit better? Or doesn’t it back off some of the worst elements or doesn’t it reduce the harm?”. At heart, that question is a harm reduction argument. It goes like this: the stigma is reduced. The social stigma of prostitution is reduced and people are not getting arrested. Anybody engaged, any anti-trafficking advocate, any human rights advocate, any housing advocate, needs to understand that there is no data that shows ever, that legal prostitution reduces the rape, the violence, the assault, the sexual harassment, and the harm, physical and psychological of prostitution, that has been documented in decades of many, many, many people’s research. We know how bad women and others get hurt in the sex trade. But what does get reduced is one or two things, and we need to know this and we need to talk about it. When prostitution is legalized, women and men in the sex trade do not get arrested. They twist the abolitionist position, and they call us prohibitionists. Maybe there’s some people out there that morally think, or they make a moral argument that it’s bad to support people in prostitution by not arresting them. Right? That’s not where you and I are at. This is not a moral argument. This is a harm argument where we are trying to reduce the harm, and we would never arrest anybody who’s turning a trick, we don’t want that. So they’re lying about our position on legal prostitution. That’s very important to know, and confront anyone who makes that mistake, or deliberate misinterpretation of the abolitionist position. The other thing to know is that evidence from New Zealand, Germany and the Netherlands is very, very clear. There’s no reduction at all in social stigma, with legal prostitution, the stigma remains. The Germans can’t get anyone to join a prostitution union, neither can the Dutch. Why? Nobody wants a record of ever being in prostitution, whether it’s legal, illegal, quasi-legal, whatever. No one wants to be in it and everyone wants to get out fast, and they almost always don’t make the kind of money that pimps promised them. There is no reduction in the harm of prostitution, you can’t stop rapes in prostitution, it’s impossible. People think, “Oh, they have panic buttons.” I once talked to a guy who told me those booths in Amsterdam have not one, not two, but three panic buttons and women are still raped and strangled and pimps still keep pillows out of the little beds in those booths. Why? Because pimps know they’re used to suffocate and sometimes assassinate women.

Sandra Morgan 27:25
So let’s go back to when you were talking about, we don’t want to arrest the person being sold. What came about, we moved away from using the language of legalization, and we started about using the language of decriminalizing. We don’t want to criminalize and further stigmatize that victim. But many of the approaches to decriminalization are not just about decriminalizing the woman or sometimes a man, a male, a child, but actually it decriminalizes various actors in the sex trade that include the pimp, the brothel owners, the sex buyers.

Dr. Melissa Farley 28:21
Legalization, and decriminalization are a pimps legal dream. They don’t do anything for the person in prostitution, except take more money away from them, and make it easier for brothels and legal venues to make more money, which is pimping and brothel managing. That’s exactly right. Both what is called decriminalized prostitution, and legal prostitution, they’re both laws that are set up for pimps, and for sex trade businessmen. They do not benefit the people in it. New Zealand has had the same amount of pimp control and coercion, post decriminalization. They have much more trafficking from Australia and the Pacific and Asia than they did before. Why? Because pimps can make money. It’s simple. And pimps don’t have to worry about getting arrested.

Sandra Morgan 29:29
I know we’ve got to wrap up pretty quick, and I’m going to put links to that research you’re mentioning in our show notes, but I want to wrap up by going back to 2008, when you really led the battle against legalization in San Francisco. You built support from both sides of the aisle, and I’d just like a little bit of your reflection on that. Who supported you?

Dr. Melissa Farley 30:01
Well, if you go to noonk.net, you can see a list of kind of famous Bay Area percentages, and Democrats, and Republicans, and community groups who supported a grassroots organization that opposed a measure to, as we put it, every time we opened our mouth Sandie, and I urge people to do this, decriminalize, and normalize, trafficking and pimping. That’s what we focused on. We were very, very clear about messaging. We hired someone full time, who had PR expertise, she had a politician relative in her family, so she grew up around PR and messaging, that’s essential. People like you and me, your friends, my friends, we love them. But none of us are PR experts and pimps are, their friends are. They know how to message. Most of us are a little naive about that and I sure include myself in it. So there were a few key elements to that campaign. One of them was, we raised enough money to hire a full time PR person, and she ran the whole campaign with a lot of input from a whole bunch of us, including the legendary Norma Hotaling, at Sage, and several friends of hers at Sage, and many others. Safe house, which is still going in San Francisco. Safe house was behind this 100% and Glenda Hope. I could make a list a mile long. We had a website and we ran quotes. At this time, Barack Obama was running for president and guess what? The pimps chose a real good time to put it on the ballot because Obama brought in a bunch of young voters. In order to try and pass these measures, they were getting signatures on ballot measures by having topless people walking around with clipboards getting signatures. They pulled out every trick in the book, so to speak. But it takes a whole community, you cannot just be siloed if you try and object to pimp based laws that are coming up again. They bring them around every few years. We need to get used to this and we need to have an organization that’s flexible, that has their messaging down, and that has enough money to run ads in the newspaper, do free workshops, have media contacts, because the pimps and their friends have a lot of media savvy, don’t you think?

Sandra Morgan 33:23
Yes, yes. Well, we’re going to work hard to get the messaging out Dr. Farley. Tell us the website for prostitution research and education.

Dr. Melissa Farley 33:37
Yes, it’s a long name, prostitutionresearch.com. We have a number of libraries there. We have a whole library on law and policy. We have a blog called Traffic Jamming, where you can pick up the latest in political movements that are opposing the legalization of pimping and trafficking.

Sandra Morgan 34:05
That’s the place when I want the latest research on prostitution. We’re going to put a link to the No on K, so you can look at history and learn from what the community there did back in 2008. Much of it is still very relevant. We’ll put links to Episode 197 where we talked about legalization with Dr. Donna Hughes. And again, Episode 219, where we talked to Brad Miles. Come back and join us on the Ending Human Trafficking podcast again in two weeks. And Melissa, I appreciate you so much. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom.

Dr. Melissa Farley 34:57
Thanks for inviting me Sandie. I appreciate our work together over the years. Thank you so much and see you soon.

Sandra Morgan 35:06
All right! Bye, bye.

View Details

Dr. Sandie Morgan discusses her summer travels and the new perspectives she gained on human trafficking.

Resources* Fiet Gratia * Episode #299- A Prevention Perspective with, Ezequiel Escobar Bellshaw * La Guardia Civil * Spain Interpol * Migratory Birds Newspaper * United Nations * UNICEF * Humanitarian Bridges * Hermano Pablo Ministries * A Breeze of Hope * Project Suma * Parliament of World’s Religions

Key Points* It’z important to integrate the stain-point theory in our learning, listening, and strategy development in order to help those in the most unique of circumstances. * Cultural context plays a large role in understanding where intervention and prevention can be effective. * A “quick rescue” does not exist and it is essential that to provide a way out, resources are provided over and over, and not just seen as a one time thing. * After care of rescue is key for providing long-term safe environments for survivors. * Everyone has a role to play in learning about and improving strategies for intervention and prevention.

Love the show? Consider supporting us on Patreon!Become a PatronTranscriptSandra Morgan 0:00
You are listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, episode #302: “What Did You Do This Summer?”

Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today’s episode is a special one. Although a guest won’t be joining us, I have a lot to share with you. This summer, I traveled to four amazing countries, each unique in its own way. During my travels, I began to develop some new perspectives on how I understand what human trafficking looks like. I’ve often said it’s more than one thing, it doesn’t always look the same. But I want to spend a little time and take a deeper dive into the differences, alongside the similarities in those countries and my experience, and right here in my own country, in the United States. I started my summer with a short trip to Dominican Republic, where leaders in the anti-trafficking movement, and especially survivor leaders, those with lived experience were gathered to continue the discussion and develop strategies that will impact our community, collective response to end human trafficking. As I was listening and learning to people with lived experience, I made some significant discoveries. First of all, and this is actually very basic, we’ve all said this, but I don’t think we have been as selective in how we apply this. We have a tendency to use a lot of generalizations, a lot of big statistics, but there is no one size fits all approach to prevention or intervention.

As I talk to my students here at Vanguard, which I’m so happy they’re back on campus, and the idea for telling about my summer as part of a podcast episode came from those conversations. And they want to know, what my take away was. What do we need to do? My take away from that conference, where I listened, I took tons of notes, I asked questions, is that there is so much more that we do not understand and principles are applicable, but need to be specifically designed for unique circumstances. So let me give you an example. I’m working with a student who is studying how to do research in the context of social justice, and especially when we’re talking about the implications for women. Her perspective, and we use the term standpoint theory, is she is a young Latina, and her ideas are filtered through, as she put it, growing up in a machismo culture. Some of the things that I say, that sound logical to me, are not logical for her. How do we begin to integrate a stand point theory approach to how we listen, how we learn, and how we develop strategies, especially for prevention or intervention. My ideas of empowerment for a young student look different when I’m talking to someone from a culture where machismo was the standard for her. I’m sure we have a podcast with somebody talking about machismo if that’s a new word for you. So my take away from Dominican Republic, is I need to listen and learn and begin to frame things from the standpoint of the person’s lived experience. I’m listening from the standpoint of my lived experience. We have a long ways to go to do a better job in prevention. That will take the ability to understand where those points of intervention are, that actually work in that cultural context. I want to learn more about using standpoint theory in listening and developing prevention strategies.

That was a quick trip, but my next trip was to Madrid, Spain and a big shout out to Fiet Gratia, to our hosts there Fiona Bellshaw and especially Ezequiel Escobar. He was on a recent episode, we did an on-site interview with him about legal services. But our students in their country study, were able to learn about government regulations, they were able to ask questions, they had an opportunity to experience outreach with the team at Fiet Gratia. One of the most important things that I saw in the outreach there, was how relational it was. Many times, we go do outreach, and we take flyers, sometimes we take little gifts, we hand out phone numbers. Their approach to outreach was to find out what a victim, or a possible victim, might need. It might look like doing a visit, asking “do you need paperwork? Do you need groceries? Do you need medicine? What are your needs?”and when they express those needs, then finding ways to resource them coming back over and over again. Those relationships then build an opportunity to offer a way out. That strategy is very labor intensive. There is no quick rescue. There’s no “one time I offered this girl a way out, and they took it and now look what she’s doing.” This is months and sometimes years before they get to see the results of their efforts. So the people that we were working with were amazing because of their steadfastness and resilience. Nobody gets into working in anti human trafficking because of the quick and easy way to you get to do it, it’s hard work. Once they were able to help someone leave and be in a safe after care environment, the program was very extensive and that’s where Ezequiel really came in with the legal services and setting up opportunities for others to be part of serving the legal needs of victims. After care levels reflected the differences between emergency services and long term. My favorite after care experience in Spain was going to a home, a long term service home, and one of the regular volunteers who comes to the home, cooks, spends time with the survivors, it was her birthday. So she came and remember, we were in Spain, she came with everything she needed to cook a birthday meal, her birthday meal that she shared with all of the residents and with us. I got to watch how Paella is made in Spain, in a big big pan. I’ve got to find a picture so I can put it on this episode’s show notes, so you can see it. It was amazing. The joy that she had celebrating her birthday by celebrating them, was amazing. We were guests there and food became a part of all of our experiences. Survivors from other countries cooked for us, they wanted to share their culture. And that takes me back to my thinking around prevention and intervention, and how we begin to look at our standpoint, that includes culture and experiences in their home country, as opposed to their experiences in their new country. So it was a marvelous experience working with the team at Fiet Gratia. We were also invited to visit with La Guardia Civil which is the counterpart to Interpol in Spain, and listening to their very targeted human trafficking unit and the work they do with outreach and connecting to the workers that do street outreach and aftercare, and working with law enforcement was an encouraging opportunity. Our Associate Director here, Derek Marsh, was able to have a great conversation with the lead for that unit. And I’m especially encouraged by the connectedness with Spain and other European countries as they track the way that the trafficking happens, especially when we’re talking about foreign nationals being brought into Spain, we saw significant trends from Latin America to Spain that I didn’t expect to see. The last time I had been to Spain, I mostly saw Eastern European and Northern African victims. So things are changing all the time. But one of the funnest things that I experienced with our class, is our students from Vanguard have been using a Fair Trade Fashion Show every year for the last several years, to demonstrate to people the risks of labor trafficking in fast fashion. So you can imagine their excitement when they discovered you can do thrift shopping, just like they do here in Orange County, to interrupt the cycle of fast fashion and waste. They went shopping and they didn’t bring back just souvenirs, they brought back their thrift finds. They were living the lessons they’ve been learning here at Vanguard.

After that I moved on to Greece, where I spent two days with our U.S. Embassy, and you all remember, I lived in Greece for 10 years. I had lots of friends to go and see at the Ministry of Immigration and law enforcement in social services, but I made some new friends that were particularly helpful in seeing the trends that are contributing to prevention and early intervention. I met leaders in the Roma community. Now the Roma community in Greece and across Europe are often marginalized. It was very encouraging to hear about the movement to build more opportunities for higher education and creating education pathways for children and young women to complete high school, to go on to college, to become leaders in government was especially encouraging. But my favorite opportunity in partnering with our U.S. Embassy folks there, was being interviewed by a youth empowerment group. This group was called Migratory Birds. They represented youth from several different countries. I think we had Pakistan, Afghanistan, India, Latin America, and Greek youth there. They were asking me questions. They were in charge of this interview, they were in charge of how their organization was reaching out to other youth and bringing them into this community. They have a newspaper, it was quite an honor to be interviewed, and later see my picture with one of the writers, the reporters on social media. They are empowering youth. We sometimes have the idea that empowering youth means that we’re giving them stuff. But actually, empowering youth, from their perspective, was about driving the conversation, building their community, and strengthening relationships that created a pathway forward, and it kept their community safe. Look up Migratory Birds and the United Nations, UNICEF, it is definitely a new approach that I learned about for prevention and intervention in Greece. Also while I was in Greece, I visited Humanitarian Bridges. We’ve worked with them in other study abroad opportunities. While I was there, I interviewed women who had been victims of commercial sexual exploitation of sex trafficking. I also talked to victims of labor trafficking. But the most interesting finding from my interviews, is how the women had taken on a sense of guilt and blame for their own victimization because they were confused about the difference between smuggling and trafficking. So I want to look at that for just a moment, the difference between smuggling and trafficking. So one woman said to me, “Well, I couldn’t go to the police because I had given money to the smuggler to get me safe and it’s against the law. So I broke the law.” But I asked, “So when you arrived here, then were you able to go and be free? Well, no, I have a little girl. I have a little boy. I had to do whatever they told me to do.” This idea of understanding that coercive element of human trafficking, we started having more conversations about that. And as I worked with members of the staff to help figure out how can we do a better job of intervention, by helping clarify the difference between smuggling and trafficking.

After that, I went on to Bolivia. And in Bolivia, I saw more opportunities for witnessing what it looks like to empower youth. This group that we worked with when we were there, Breeze of Hope. I was with a group called Hermano Pablo ministries, and they were giving an award to the organization Breeze of Hope for their work with victims of sexual violence. We know that many of those victims were also victims of human trafficking. Bolivia has the highest rate of sexual violence in Latin America. I’ve worked in other Latin American countries, and I’ve seen Bolivian survivors/victims in those countries, in Argentina, in Ecuador, in Peru. Bolivia is a sending country as well as a country where they have trafficking of their own people. This group, Breeze of Hope, started a movement to break the silence around sexual violence, and they empower youth. I had the exciting opportunity to march in a Break the Silence demonstration. I was absolutely overwhelmed and enthralled when I learned that everything was planned by the young people. And of course, they had adult assistance, they had adult resources, but youth and children were part of the planning, just like the Migratory Birds, youth. Here you have this group that is identified as very marginalized and suddenly, they’re not on the sideline, they’re leading the parade. Not just figuratively, but in person, leading the charge. It was an amazing experience. I was very fortunate to visit the Center for Breeze of Hope, and to see the complex way that they were addressing generational sexual violence. They were working with every part of a family, with grandparents with parents, with siblings, not just the victim. They had amazing psychological services, they had opportunities for restoration and recreation. I got pulled into dancing on the lawn with kids who were just laughing and having such a great time. It was amazing to see children leading the way in breaking generational sexual violence patterns. It was a real honor to be with Breeze of Hope. At the same time, when I was in Bolivia, I was able to spend some time with our U.S. Embassy. We were invited to a university and talked about human trafficking, and how students can become part of the effort to combat human trafficking. I spent time with non-governmental leaders who are struggling to overcome the sexual violence and the issues that have made it difficult to combat human trafficking. I went to visit the Suma Center, where the center is literally in the shadow of buildings with brothels. And they were working in breaking generational cycles. When a woman is able to escape, not escape, “Oh, she was able to walk out the door,” but escape: leave the life. It means that she needs a new community, she needs a vocation, a job, she needs to be able to care for her family, and breaking those generational cycles is about building new cycles. It’s not just about ending one thing, it’s about starting something else.

As I came home with so many ideas and thoughts in my head, I just turned around and had a conference in Chicago with the Parliament of World Religions. It was a very fast trip, one night. The traffic in Chicago, I think it measures up to traffic in Los Angeles, I have to tell you. I spent a lot of time with an Uber driver, and my friend and I were talking and he heard us talking about human trafficking. For the next 30 minutes, our conversation with that Uber driver was one of the best conversations all summer, because he was trying to figure out, as an Uber driver, what is my role? How can I help? What if I see something? I see the signs and you should look for it, but they’re in my car, what do I do? What’s the best way to do something?But he was looking for his place, his role, in this movement to end human trafficking. It reminded me of the illustration I’ve shared many times at conferences, and I know also on this podcast. When I lived in Greece and I went to the Palace at Knossos, in their pantry, which was down steep stairs of a 3000 year old community, where they didn’t have cranes and elevators, they had these big jars, we call them pithari. In that jar that was so big, I could stand up inside of it, they would bring grain, and olives and olive oil. How would they get it down those steps? Because the people were about 100 pounds, five feet tall, and the stairs were steep, and the jars were heavy. Well, they were brilliant, they baked handles all over the pithari, from the bottom to the top, and all the way around. So then no matter where you’re standing on the stairs, you can reach a handle and carry that burden forward. I believe there is a handle for the Uber driver, for the children working in Breeze of Hope, for Migratory Birds, vulnerable youth, for attorneys in Spain, and for students at Vanguard. There are a lot of people who are very different from me. I’m an educator, people give me lots of encouragement, “Keep doing more of this,” but I believe we need more voices, from different perspectives, different continents, different cultures, and different stories. I’m looking forward to a future where we have more understanding of our differences, and how we can develop unique strategies that will stop human trafficking. There are experts with handles on the financial end of things, there are experts in law enforcement, there are experts in the health care field, we need everybody, there’s not a one size fits all. If you take anything away from my answer to “What did you do this summer?”, I want you to start asking questions about some of the things we just take as ‘this is the way it is, it looks like this, I can take my training from Orange County to Bolivia and deliver it there.’ Maybe not. Maybe I need to find out what it really looks like in different places. Find out who’s doing this and how can I partner with them and find my handle on their big jar?All right, my time is up, and I want to challenge you to find out what it looks like in your area that might be different than what it looks like for me, and how you can find your handle to be involved right where you are, in the battle to end human trafficking. Thanks for being with us again, and we will be back in two weeks. Bye everybody.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan discusses her summer travels and the new perspectives she gained on human trafficking.

Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today’s episode is a special one. Although a guest won’t be joining us, I have a lot to share with you. This summer, I traveled to four amazing countries, each unique in its own way. During my travels, I began to develop some new perspectives on how I understand what human trafficking looks like. I’ve often said it’s more than one thing, it doesn’t always look the same. But I want to spend a little time and take a deeper dive into the differences, alongside the similarities in those countries and my experience, and right here in my own country, in the United States. I started my summer with a short trip to Dominican Republic, where leaders in the anti-trafficking movement, and especially survivor leaders, those with lived experience were gathered to continue the discussion and develop strategies that will impact our community, collective response to end human trafficking. As I was listening and learning to people with lived experience, I made some significant discoveries. First of all, and this is actually very basic, we’ve all said this, but I don’t think we have been as selective in how we apply this. We have a tendency to use a lot of generalizations, a lot of big statistics, but there is no one size fits all approach to prevention or intervention.

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Dr. Sandra Morgan is joined by Alana Stott and her daughter Mollie Stott. The three discuss the importance of cyber-safety and conversations between parents and their children that will ensure cyber-safety. Alana Stott A true multi-hyphenate Alana founded and developed Wolfraven Omnimedia as a vehicle to help tell amazing and inspirational stories, including her own, while fiercely advocating for causes aimed at making the world a better place. Stott has written the game-changing business and philanthropy book, “How to Ask for Money;” her powerful memoir, “She Who Dares;” and a series of empowering children’s books – all to be published in 2023. In 2018, Alana Stott raised $1.3 million dollars for a mental health awareness campaign at the request of Prince Harry and Stott’s husband Dean Stott, a double world record-breaking cross-country cyclist, TV presenter and former UK Special Forces Operator. This was not her first stint in fundraising. Much like her working life, her business and philanthropic career paths started early. Alana Stott qualified as a Ship Security Officer and one of the first women to receive the Company Security Officer designation, qualifying her to run security on any vessel at sea. She is also a fully-qualified Close Protection Officer. Stott is an honorary member of The Special Boat Services Association, the UK equivalent of The Navy’s Seal Team 6. She has organized multiple grand red carpet events to raise funds for injured special forces soldiers and their families. Alana was award the title of Member of The Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (MBE) on the King's Honor List 2023 for her work supporting vulnerable women and mental health awareness. Key Points

Alana Stott wrote three children's books for the purpose of opening up different conversations to educate youth. Her book "Live Your Own Way" teaches children that it is okay to have your own adventures, and that you don't always have to do what those around you are doing. "Who to Help Today" emphasizes the little opportunities we all have to help those around us. "Me and My Friends Play" displays the beauty in childhood friendships and how barriers that often keep us from connecting, are not an issue with youth. Mollie practices cyber-safety by keeping her location services off, keeping her accounts private, and denying any follow requests from those she doesn't know. She also blocks accounts that she is concerned about, or brings her concerns to her mom, Alana. It's important for youth to be educated about cyber-safety because they can easily spot unsafe situations that their friends might be going through. By giving youth the tools to be safe online, they can help their peers to do the same. Having conversations with our youth about how to be safe online allows them to feel good about talking to parents about their concerns and feelings.

Resources

Kings Honours List Wolfraven Omnimedia Alana Stott Website She Who Dares by Alana Stott Molly’s Adventures by Alana Stott The Girl Who Escaped: The Kara Robinson Story How to Ask For Money by Alana Stott

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Transcript Sandra Morgan 0:00 You are listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, episode #301: "Talking With Our Children: A Key to Cyber Safety" with Alana and Mollie Stott.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Kelsey Syms as the two discuss R.E.A.L. Friends Don't and its importance in educating youth and parents and caregivers about online dangers. Kelsey Syms Kelsey Syms is the program manager for the Combating Human Trafficking program at the McCain Institute for International Leadership. She has a master's in Applied Leadership and Management and a bachelor's in Political Science. She's been with the McCain Institute, based in Washington D.C., since 2018. Key Points

A recent survey by the McCain Institute found that parents and teen on't talk about sexting and online dangers. It's important that the talk between parents and teens about sexting and online dangers fulfill the stop, drop and roll method, meaning that it is a repetitive practice, not just a box that is being crossed off. Many parents often avoid difficult conversations like the one about online dangers, because they fear they are exposing their child to mature subjects at too early an age. However, R.E.A.L. Friends Don't provides a toolkit that gives parents tips on conversation starters. R.E.A.L. Friends Don't is focused on educating young people about the ways in which predators use social media to target vulnerable groups. They provide resources for both parents and teens, in Spanish and English.

Resources

Mccain institute R.E.A.L Friends Don’t: Online Safety Campaign R.E.A.L. Friends Don’t ‘Know the Platform’ National Center for Missing and Exploited Children CyberTipline Take It Down The Trevor Project Q Chat Space Get the Conversation Started Toolkit NetSmartz R.E.A.L. Friends Don’t Facebook R.E.A.L. Friends Don’t Instagram R.E.A.L. Friends Don’t Youtube

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Transcript Sandra Morgan 0:00

You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode 300, R.E.A.L Friends Don't: Online Safety Campaign with, Kelsey Syms.

Sandra Morgan 0:29

Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast here at Vanguard University's Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today we have with us Kelsey Syms, from the McCain Institute to talk about the R.E.A.L Friends Don't Online Safety Campaign. Kelsey has a master's in Applied Leadership and Management and a bachelor's in political science. She's been with the McCain Institute since 2018. So Kelsey, welcome.

Kelsey Syms 1:20

Thank you so much, Dr. Morgan. It's a pleasure to be here.

Sandra Morgan 1:24

I'd like to know a little bit first about, what is the McCain institute?

Kelsey Syms 1:29

The McCain Institute is an action tank. We are a part of Arizona State University based in Washington, DC and we work on a whole host of issues ranging from democracy, human rights, preventing targeted violence, leadership programs, and combating human trafficking.

Sandra Morgan 1:55

I love that and you've actually been with the McCain institute combating human trafficking for five years now. Is that right?

Kelsey Syms 2:05

That's correct, I have. I joined the institute. I spent an internship with the Department of Justice in their child exploitation and obscenity section, and shortly thereafter joined the McCain Institute's combating human trafficking program, and have really enjoyed the thorough and impactful work that we've been doing, and really see a lot of opportunity ahead for us.

Sandra Morgan 2:29

So I think it's important when we do our show notes, we'll put a link to the McCain institute. I love how it is based in an academic setting because so often we have abolitionist agendas, we are advocates, we're activists,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Ezequiel Escobar Bellshaw, an attorney from Madrid. The two discuss the role Fiet Gratia, an NGO of which Ezequiel Escobar Bellshaw is the Executive Director, plays in preventing trafficking in Spain. Ezequiel Escobar Bellshaw Ezequiel Escobar Bellshaw is the Executive Director of Fiet Gratia, an NGO specialized in intervention and comprehensive assistance to victims of human trafficking, with presence in different parts of Spain. In 2019, Ezequiel was offered the position of Executive Director, and accepted the offer to develop the project of the Solidarity Law Firm with his partner Alberto Miguens. Since 2012, he has been directing as partner and founder, the Law Firm Miguens & Bellshaw, developing an intense work in the area of Human rights. Ezequiel has a degree in Law from the Universidad Autónoma de Madrid, a Master in management, a Minor in Big Data and Business intelligence, a postgraduate in Compliance, and is a practicing lawyer in Madrid. Key Points

Fiet Gratia is an anti human trafficking NGO that employs attorneys who aid the NGO in being sustainable and long term. The industry of pornography is affecting youth as young as 8, directly linking them to prostitution because of the effects it leaves on youth. The attorneys at Fiet Gratia aid in not only solving an individual's issue, but helping to find the solution for a bigger issue like trafficking. The hiring of a compliance officer is similar to risk management, ensuring that everything that NGO does is being done ethically. Fiet Gratia has gone through the ISO 9001 model, a model that ensures quality management, as well as the EFQM Model, the most respected seal in Europe. Education can aid in prevention if it is given the same platform in schools as sex education courses are.

Resources

Fiet Gratia Solidarity Law Firm Universidad Autónoma de Madrid ISO 9001 EFQM Model Utilidad Publica Guardia Civil UN Palermo Protocol 3Ps: Prosecution, Protection, and Prevention

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Transcript Sandra Morgan 0:00 You are listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, episode 299, A Prevention Perspective with, attorney Ezequiel Escobar Bellshaw.

Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University's Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I recorded this episode on site in Madrid, Spain during a recent Vanguard University, Summer Study Abroad human trafficking course. Our guest is Ezequiel Escobar Bellshaw. He's the Executive Director of Fiet Gratia an NGO specialized in intervention and comprehensive assistance to victims of human trafficking, with presence in several different parts of Spain. In 2019, Ezequiel was offered the position of executive director and accepted the offer to develop the project Solidarity Law Firm with his partner, Albert Miguens. They had been working together in the law firm Miguens and Bellshaw, developing an intense work in the area of human rights. Ezequiel has a degree in law from the Universidad Autonoma de Madrid, a aster's in management, a minor in big data and business intelligence, a postgraduate degree and compliance, and he's a dad to two beautiful children. Now, his background really informs this next conversation. How many do you know who have a minor in big data and business intelligence? You are going to enjoy this conversation. Take a listen.

I am so pleased today to introduce Ezequiel Escobar Bellshaw. And we are recording on site at their headquarters in Madrid, Spain. Welcome, Ezequiel.

Ezequiel Escobar Bellshaw 2:52 Thank you Sandie,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Stella Ayo-Odongo from the director for Pathfinding Countries' global partnership to end violence against children hosted by UNICEF. The two discuss the importance of advocacy and creating spaces where the voiceless can be heard. Stella Ayo-Adongo Stella Ayo-Odongo is the director for Pathfinding Countries' global partnership to end violence against children hosted by UNICEF. She's a child rights, child protection, social policy expert, and an advocate for social justice. Stella is a motivated leader and development practitioner with over 25 years of progressive experience in strategic leadership, development management, and program operations. She has extensive knowledge and experience advocating for vulnerable groups, such as the children, youth, and the elderly. Stella is a visionary Pan-African leader, as demonstrated in the founding of national and regional level movements for social justice, such as the African wide movement for the children, civil society organizations for peace in Northern Uganda, and the Uganda parliamentary forum for children, all of which have made significant contributions to voicing issues of the affected. Key Points

Among the many forms of trafficking in the world, and in Uganda, is harmful cultural practices. While these practices are cultural traditions, they can often be harmful, therefore falling into trafficking. 37 countries have committed to jining the Pathfinding Initiative, meaning they have chosen to champion the cause to end violence against children. This has helped advocate for vulnerable groups and launch initiatives in each country, as it starts at the governing level. The 7 INSPIRE Strategies include implementation and enforcement of laws, norms and values, safe environments, parents and caregiver support, income and economic strengthening, response and support services, and educational life skills. To protect vulnerable communities, it is important not only to uplift the voices of those who have lived these experiences by advocating, but create spaces for them to speak as their voices can cause enormous change. National Child Helplines have allowed for immediate reports to be made, and the Child Helplines of Uganda receives 1500 calls a day with 90% requiring immediate action. Child Helplines also help mitigate trafficking and have aided in the fight to stop child marriage.

Resources

Global Partnership to End Violence Against Children Uganda Child Rights NGO Network United States Agency for International Development General Assembly of the United Nations INSPIRE Strategies Early Childhood Development Action Network Uganda Child Helpline

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Transcript Sandra Morgan 0:00 You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode 298, Ending Violence Against Children with Stella Ayo-Odongo.

Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University's Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. My name is Sandie Morgan and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Stella Ayo-Odongo is the director for Pathfinding Countries' global partnership to end violence against children hosted by UNICEF. She's a child rights, child protection, social policy expert, and an advocate for social justice. Stella is a motivated leader and development practitioner with over 25 years of progressive experience in strategic leadership, development management, and program operations. She has extensive knowledge and experience advocating for vulnerable groups, such as the children, youth, and the elderly. Stella is a visionary Pan-African leader,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan looks back at Episode 28 "Stop Blaming the Victim" with, Dave Stachowiak and Amelia Frank Meyer. The three discuss the prevalence of victim blaming against commercially sexually exploited children, how it affects the children, and how to help them. Dr. Amelia Franck Meyer When we first interviewed Dr. Amelia Franck Meyer, she was the CEO of Anu Family Services, a child welfare agency located in 90 different counties in Wisconsin and Minnesota. Now, Amelia Franck Meyer serves as Anu's Senior Strategic Advisor and is the founder and CEO of Alia. Alia provides innovations for people and systems impacted by childhood trauma and is a strategic partner of Anu Family Services. Amelia is leading a movement to create a child welfare system where both caregivers and children can thrive. She has worked throughout the United States and internationally, promoting her ideas to change the way children welfare systems work. Amelia Franck Meyer also brought together professionals at the University of Minnesota, where she received her master's degree in social work, to create Youth Connections Scale and Wellbeing Indicator Tool for Youth, two tools largely used in the child welfare sphere. Key Points

Terms like "teen prostitute" and "child prostitute" are incorrect and dangerous as they suggest youth were voluntarily involved. Blaming victims instead of seeing them as children who are in need of protection adds to the harm these youth have already experienced. A lot of the youth being found in these circumstances are children who were already in the Foster care system. Because these children felt that they had no protection in the system, from the lack of adult connection, they took it upon themselves to find protection. When commercially sexually exploited youth are found, they have already had their innocence taken from them, however, they also lost the time they should have had doing things with their families and friends.

Resources

Anu Family Services Olive Crest Dr. Darla Henry's 3-5-7 Model

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Transcript Sandra Morgan 0:00 You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode 297.

Welcome back! My name is Sandie Morgan. Producing this podcast, dedicated to studying the issues, being a voice, and making a difference takes a team. We're saying another goodbye, this time to Idalis Moscoso, who has served as blog editor, organizer, wonderful website, content provider. She's going off to Italy for grad school, and we wish her well. We're welcoming on board Nadia Sosa. When I asked Nadia recently what her favorite episode has been during her onboarding, she quickly responded, "number 28!" I immediately knew what she was talking about and I want everyone to revisit it with us. You'll be listening now to Dr. Amelia Franck, in Episode 28, "Stop Blaming the Victim. The bonus is that you will also get to hear Dave again throughout this interview. Okay, now, let's get to the episode. Here's me introducing our guest.

Let me introduce Amelia Franck Meyer, she has been the CEO of Anu Family Services since 2001. That's a child welfare agency located in Wisconsin and Minnesota. For those of you who listened to the last podcast, we were talking about not calling these kids terms that put them into juvenile delinquency, but finding the opportunities and making opportunities by giving them designations that place them squarely in a child welfare context. That's exactly what Amelia does. She is an advanced practice social worker, a licensed independent social worker, she has a master's degree in social work from University of Minnesota and a master's degree in sociology from Illinois and a graduate certificate from the University of Minnesota.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Derek Marsh, the Associate Director of the Global Center for Women and Justice at Vanguard University. The two discuss the importance of shedding light on labor trafficking as well as understanding labor trafficking cases collaboratively.

Key Points* The same approach and attention given to sex trafficking should be used when approaching labor trafficking as both are crimes. * While labor trafficking cases have decreased, collaboration when pursuing cases gives victims to opportunity to be liberated and ensures those who have committed the crime are held accountable. * Investigating and identifying labor trafficking is difficult without collaboration because of its tendency to involve foreign nationals. * It’s important to have knowledge of the signs of labor trafficking to keep individuals who could possible be in a labor trafficking situation from being exploited.

Resources* Understanding and Pursuing Labor Trafficking Cases Collaboratively by Derek Marsh * Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force * Bureau of Justice Assistance * 2010 TIP Report * Trillium Egg Farm Case * National Trafficking Hotline

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7Nicole StrattmanNicole has been employed with the County of Orange Social Services Agency (SSA) since 1999. She is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker who holds a Master’s degree in Social Work from the University of Southern California. She is currently the manager for the Resource Families: Recruitment, Development and Support program in Children and Family Services. Nicole has worked in a variety of programs at SSA which have included assignments investigating child abuse as well as representing SSA in Family Law Court. In 2014, Nicole began working alongside the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force to create an enhanced collaborative response model, treating trafficked children as victims and ensuring the child welfare system had the services to meet the victim’s needs. She is a California Department of Social Services “Above and Beyond” award recipient and has received recognition from California State Senator Ling Ling Chang and California Congresswoman Katie Porter for her commitment to end Human Trafficking and the Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children (CSEC). Nicole was a key advocate in bringing in a therapy dog into youth’s court hearings, which was profiled on local news station, KTLA in Los Angeles as well as the nationally syndicated show CW’s Dogs of the Year. As an expert in the field, she has traveled across the state as a presenter and trainer on CSEC and Human Trafficking as it relates to Child Welfare, where she has trained social workers, victim advocates, mental health practitioners, law enforcement and international delegations from countries, such as Egypt and Vietnam.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Erin Burke from Homeland Security to discuss federal investigations into child exploitation crimes. They discuss the public-private partnership between HSI and NCMEC, the difference between child exploitation and human trafficking, and the rise of sextortion amongst our youth.

Erin BurkeErin Burke is the Unit Chief for the Child Exploitation Investigations Unit (CEIU) at Cyber Crime Center (C3) with Homeland Security Investigations (HSI). CEIU is comprised of three sections, the Victim Identification Lab, Intake and Operations, and Angel Watch. As a Special Agent, Erin has worked investigations related to child exploitation, human trafficking, national security, transnational narcotics, gangs, and financial crimes for over fifteen years. Erin earned a master’s degree in Forensic Science from The George Washington University.

Key Points* The Child Exploitation Investigations Unit (CEIU) is the primary unit addressing child exploitation within HSI and partnering with other law enforcement around the world. * Sextortion is becoming a growing trend in exploiting children for sexually explicit images and money. * Kids are growing up in a digital age which requires us to understand the technology kids use and create safety barriers to protect them. * Child exploitation is sexual abuse against a child perpetrated by a trusted individual. * Child sex trafficking is the sexual exploitation of a child for monetary gain. * NCMEC is the national clearinghouse for child exploitation and partners with federal agencies to investigate child exploitation crimes.

Resources* National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC) * iGuardians | Home Security Investigations * NetSmartz | NCMEC * CyberTipline for Online Exploitation | NCMEC * Take It Down | NCMEC * Sextortion: The Hidden Pandemic film * Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate

Love the show? Consider supporting us on Patreon!Become a PatronTranscriptSandra Morgan 00:00

You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode 293, Investigating Child Exploitation, with Erin Burke.

Sandra Morgan 00:27

Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. And for many of you in our last episode, you learned that my founding co-host, Dave Stachowiak, has sent me out of the nest solo and this is my first solo hosts to podcast. So, I am especially delighted to have such an amazing guest today. Erin Burke is unit chief for Child Exploitation Investigations at the Cyber Crime Center, Homeland Security Investigations. And she is an amazing and diligent investigator. She has, as a special agent, worked investigations related to child exploitation, human trafficking, national security, transnational narcotics, gangs, and financial crimes for over 15 years. Erin has a master’s degree in forensic science from The George Washington University. Thank you so much for joining us today, Erin.

Erin Burke 01:53

Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here today and to talk to you.

Sandra Morgan 01:57

So tell us, first of all, what the Child Exploitation Investigations Unit at Cyber Crime Center, also known as C3, what does it do?

Erin Burke 02:11

So the Child Exploitation Investigations Unit, I might also refer to it as CEIU, is basically Homeland Security Investigations headquarters element that focuses on all types of child exploitation and abuse crimes. So we are comprised of three units, there’s intake investigations, and that unit is where we work with our domestic and international partners to actually work on cases and large scale operations to combat predators online. The other section is Angel Watch. And that is an initiative that we have to basically protect the world’s children. So it’s an initiative where we have to make sure that individuals who are leaving the United States with the intent to harm and abuse children elsewhere, that we can target them and prosecute them as necessary. Then our third is the victim identification lab. And this is a cutting edge laboratory, our main mission is to identify and rescue children of abuse and exploitation. So they use some really amazing technology combined with traditional investigative tools to focus on finding those kids who are being abused, and their images are posted online, who are being abused, and they’re being caused to travel around the country, they’re going to focus on identifying who those kids are, rescuing them, identifying the predators and putting them in jail as well. So really, we’re a one stop shop for all things child exploitation for Homeland Security Investigations, and for all of our partners around the world.

Sandra Morgan 03:40

Wow, all three of those sections could be a single podcast. But let’s start with the victim identification lab. What happens when you find out a child is being exploited online?

Erin Burke 03:56

So I’ll start because a lot of people come in not really knowing what I’m saying when I say child exploitation. And it’s really important to understand what’s happening. So when we talk about these crimes, we’re talking about a couple different areas, but primarily talking about children who are physically sexually abused, often by a loved one, trusted individual in their life. And those predators then take images and videos of the actual abuse, then they share them online. They post them to forums, they share them with other predators, they share them in a myriad of ways. So, A, that’s one side of what we do. There’s another huge trending issue is the sextortion. So it’s a little bit different from our traditional child exploitation and child sexual abuse cases. So predators have been meeting kids online for a long time, it all falls under child exploitation, but it’s getting worse. So this is where predators are meeting children online and they are basically coercing them. They’re gaining their trust, oftentimes, most of the time by deceit. They’re pretending that they’re a boy or a girl that that victim would be interested in. They’re very good at exploiting the child’s social media to know what they’re looking for. So then the predator gets that child’s trust and friendship, and then often asks for explicit images, and it starts slow, but it can escalate very quickly. So then they get these compromising images of these children. And then it turns into that exploitation, so then they threaten, coerce, do all of these terrible things to have the child do other things. So traditionally, it would just be they would coerce them and threaten to show these pictures to their friends and their parents and their school and all of that, for something. That something may either be for the child to produce more images, to do things, do other sexually explicit things, to meet up in person. And now this new financially based extortion is they’re coercing these children and exploiting them in order to get money. So they’re causing them to send money, buy gift cards, do different things. So it’s a big huge area. But the victim ID lab gets leads like this from our international partners, from our domestic offices, if they understand that during the forensics of a case, they come upon an unknown image of a child that we’re going to try to find it and a huge amount of what we do comes from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. They’re the national clearinghouse for a lot of these images. And we work directly with them to help identify and solve some of these cases.

Sandra Morgan 06:26

Wow! Okay. So you use the word coerce and trust in the same sentence, and how these kids meet someone online and they trust them because why?

Erin Burke 06:42

So it’s a couple of things. Kids today, unlike everybody who are listening, we didn’t grow up making friends online. That’s kind of a foreign thought to us. Kids are very trusting. Their brains aren’t fully developed oftentimes by when they’re online and when they’re doing this. They’re looking for those friendships. And they truly believe that you can form a friendship online and it’s genuine. So a lot of it’s just this generational difference, that being online to them is very similar to being in person. Kids today spend their days FaceTiming and chatting and snapping, and all these different things online with their best friends. So something in their brain can equate it to, well, if I meet them online and we connect we can still be really close friends. There are adults that this happens to as well. Adults are victims of these kinds of extortion schemes as well. Kids just seem to be more susceptible. Because A, they want those friendships. To a lot of kids, the more friends you have on your social media platform means the more popular you are. So to them, this is how they make friendships in today’s age. And the one thing I will say which will set this world a little bit apart from the human trafficking victims that we’ve dealt with, the individuals, the children who are being exposed and targeted for this sextortion is everybody. It is from rich to poor, from rural to city, its kids are all online. I mean, everyone has access to the internet, and they all want to make friends and they all have social media. So it’s a huge victim pool for these predators to go after.

Sandra Morgan 08:18

Okay, so two things to follow up on here. With regard to their brains aren’t done, last week our Surgeon General here in the U.S. made a statement that 13 is too young for social media. What’s your response to that?

Erin Burke 08:35

It’s funny. It’s a hard question. So I agree that a huge amount of our child exploitation problem in the world would be helped–not solved, because bad people will still do bad things–will be helped if we didn’t have kids on social media. But this is the world we live in. So it’s not realistic that kids aren’t going to be on social media before that. And it’s only getting earlier and earlier. We see elementary aged kids having phones and with some limited access to different things. So I think we have to understand that this is the world we live in and how do we catch up with the technology and make it safer.

Sandra Morgan 09:16

Okay, I like that answer because it’s so reasonable and more doable, especially for parents. And parents have, for a long time felt like when their kids are in a nice, safe place and everybody is doing well, they’re not in a compromised situation. Their kids are relatively safe. They’re not in that vulnerable population. But what you’re saying is everybody’s kid is vulnerable now. And when you talk about this in the context of sexual exploitation and human trafficking, what’s the legal line of demarcation there?

Erin Burke 09:55

So that’s where it’s always like this fine line. With this new sextortion that’s financially-based does blur those lines a little bit. But traditionally, the child exploitation side of the house is really sexual abuse that is caused by trusted individuals. And yes, that also goes down the road of predators who are online, and then they coerce these children, they meet them in person, and then it still falls under child exploitation. When we go over to the human trafficking side, we’re talking about underage children who are forced into commercial prostitution. And again, there’s also the labor side of the house. But that’s kind of a whole separate topic. And those individuals are very different. The predator type is very different. The people involved in human trafficking, it’s a financial motivation, they are harming and exploiting these children for this commercial gain, for these commercial sex acts. Tn the child exploitation side of the house, in most cases– again, there’s always exceptions–the motivation is not a financial motivation. Again, I asterik that with other than the financial sextortion. But traditionally, the bulk of what we’re seeing for child exploitation, it is for the enjoyment of it, of the predator. They enjoy abusing and exploiting these children. When it comes to a predator who’s a true pedophile and is exploiting thiese children, they have a type, they have a type. They’re often interested in a certain thing, and I hate to throw this out there, it sounds terrible, but they could be interested in prepubescent boys, or pre-teen boys or girls. And the other side with human trafficking, they’re going to manipulate and coerce and exploit anybody they can who’s going to make them money. So does that explain the difference pretty well?

Sandra Morgan 11:44

Yeah, yeah, that’s really helpful. Because of course, we understand exploitation as a part of commercial sexual exploitation of adults and of children. And so understanding this fine line is really helpful as we try to build more protections into the community education for especially families, parents, teachers, community leaders that deal with children. And so your partnership with NCMEC that you mentioned is twofold. And talk about how you partner with them from an investigative side and then let’s talk about how we as a community partner with them for prevention.

Erin Burke 12:33

Absolutely. So NCMEC is a phenomenal partner. They are the federal clearing house, basically, the clearing house for the United States. They have their tipline out there, and they’re always out in the media, so they’re very well known. When U.S. based companies and some foreign companies, when they find illegal material on their platforms, they are required by law to send that material and to report it. And basically, NCMEC takes in all those referrals. So millions of referrals, I’m sure you can look online, and it’s millions and millions of referrals each year, and it’s only getting higher and higher and expanding crazy. So they take them in, they triage them, they deconflict them, and they basically take a look at that–

Sandra Morgan 13:13

Stop! I’m the man on the street, helping my listeners. So what do you mean deconflict?

Erin Burke 13:20

Alright, so what that means is, we send those images to NCMEC, they take those images and run them against all their fancy databases, and they basically give us a report as an investigator. It’s a document that’s basically used in court to say, there’s so many identified victims. And what that means is, if I submitted a report that had 100 images on it to NCMEC, they would come back, and so there’s 100 images of children on there, they will come back and say, okay, 80 of those images are known child exploitation material. So you can use those for prosecution. They’re known images, they’re illegal, it’s proven through a myriad of ways. 10 of those images are known child exploitation material and the child has not been identified. So all those other 80 we know who the child is, they’re safe, we don’t even have to worry about it. We just don’t have to stress out about it. Well, 10 of those, we’ve seen the images before, which means those images have been floating around the internet. And they’ve been sent to NCMEC by other law enforcement agencies or private companies or private citizens. Those are important because those children are still they haven’t been rescued yet. We need to find them. And then they come back and say but that last 10, they haven’t been seen before and we have rescued that child. We’ve never seen it which means that abuse is new and ongoing and becomes extremely important. So that’s the kind of cases that we take at the victim ID lab. So we work directly with NCMEC to say, they’re like this is an active ongoing, very new case, this child’s brand new, brand new abuse, we need to get them out of harm’s way. So then the victim ID lab does their magic and we work to identify and rescue those children. So on the flip side of that, when we do rescue a child in any of our investigations, we also submit that information to the National Center, so that they can kind of have that in their database to say, hey, this child has been rescued, and we’re good to go. It just gives the investigators the help to know which cases to focus on. Does that make sense?

Sandra Morgan 15:23

Yes, that’s so good. And it really demonstrates the value of public-private partnerships. So okay, now, I’m just my brain is on fire here. And I’m thinking about how important it is to have those kinds of system-based partnerships that are so broad and wide. When I meet someone who’s doing investigation in the private sector, and there are at least a dozen nonprofits that pop into my mind, how can I evaluate the quality of their investigations? Because if people are trusting in those kinds of investigations don’t have access to all of that, is there a way for them to be more responsible, be more informed, find a different path or what? I’m not sure?

Erin Burke 16:27

Yeah, that’s actually a great question. Here’s the thing. There’s so many nonprofits out there doing some amazing work, a lot of the nonprofits that are fighting on the technical side, they’re trying to create tools and trying to do things to help law enforcement–that’s invaluable. Same thing with those who are providing services to the victims. That obviously is the number one thing that that’s why we do what we do, we’re victim centered. We want to save the kids first, that’s invaluable. There are other organizations who are in I say, quote, unquote, investigating. And I think it’s all out of the good of their own hearts, which is great, because they want to save kids. But it’s hard, it’s a fine line that if you’re not law enforcement, if you’re not sanctioned to do these investigations, sometimes the evidence that’s gathered by a non-government, non-law enforcement won’t ever be able to be used in court, and it could hamper the actual investigations that are going on. So I always caution working with those organizations that are out there doing actual kind of law enforcement work, that we need to be really careful, we need to set very strict parameters of how we can work together so that we can all achieve the goal in the end of rescue and prosecution. Because, like I said, number one, we always want to rescue that child. But number two, we want to put that predator in jail so there aren’t more victims throughout their lifetime.

Sandra Morgan 17:49

So describe some of those parameters. I’ve been approached by somebody who says we’re doing this better than blah, blah, blah, what am I looking for to evaluate?

Erin Burke 18:02

Okay. Thank you for that clarification. So let’s revisit NCMEC, because I have like their last report of 40 some million image files. And I know, it’s even more than that now. How can our community engage with NCMEC to build a more resilient response? Better barriers? I’m not sure but things that we might even call actual prevention.

Erin Burke 18:02

One of the main things that I’ve seen is a lot of private companies can get data and information by paying for it, which again, is totally legal, everything’s legal for them to do that. And they can push boundaries that the U.S. government can’t. Everything the U.S. government needs to get that data, we need official court orders, subpoenas, summonses, search warrants, that’s how we have to get it. So if someone provided us with a bunch of data and information that was great for making probable cause, basically, to say that this predator did ABC and D, we have to ask where it came from. And if it didn’t come from a legally provided source, then that’s really slippery for us. It’s a slippery slope, prosecutors, judges do not like that. So the other side of that is, if you get all this information from a victim, that’s a lot different. So if you’re getting information from the victim, and it’s all based on consent, that’s great. But if it’s based on other means that private companies can pay for or using some other tool that the U.S. government would normally get with the court process, that’s that’s really iffy for us.

Erin Burke 19:46

So my biggest thing is prevention. I mean, that’s the one thing that the public can do. In anytime you’re engaging with community members on these topics, I would encourage them to go on to NCMEC’s website, look at their NetSmartz program. Also look at HSI’s iGuardian program. And I’ll just let everyone know HSI is coming out with a revamped outreach program that’s going to be much more in-depth and have a lot more availability to the public. Lots of different things. That’ll be coming out, hopefully in the next year here. But with NCMEC, their NetSmartz program is fantastic. It has training and educational videos broken down by age, because as we all know, the dangers facing a six-year-old are different from the dangers facing a 16-year-old and you can’t use the same materials for that. And NCMEC is really good at that. They’re also a good place that if you have information and you think you saw something, or you had something you needed to report, and it didn’t seem like it needed to go to law enforcement yet. But you know, either way, you could always call them and report it to them. They’re just a great resource. They provide tons of resources for victims. So if you have community members that might have some kind of skill set that can help victims, they could work in collaboration with them as well and offer their skill set. They do so many things that just getting on their website, talking with them is super important. But the number one thing is educating our kids. Parents, teachers, family members, schools, everyone, if we can get them to understand what the dangers are right now, then maybe we can lower the victim rates here, hopefully, because I will tell you, the predator rates are forever going up. And I don’t see that changing.

Sandra Morgan 21:37

Thank you so much. You’re singing my song, I’m gonna put NetSmartz links in the show notes, again, also the CyberTipline. And we recently saw that NCMEC launched the take it down link as well. So have you worked with the Take It Down link?

Erin Burke 21:57

So I actually haven’t worked with that link. I was excited when it launched. I’ve had briefings about it. I think it’s amazing. It’s really important for kids to understand– In the past, I’ll tell you this, I think we all heard this: once it’s on the internet, it’s out there forever. And that is true. I mean, that is true things can always be recirculated and things like that. But now, this program gives victims hope that they can get some of those images down, that they can regain back that power. And I think the amount of victims who might actually come forward based solely on that, who never would have before is astonishing. I mean, if this just helps victims come forward, if it helps one more victim come forward that wouldn’t before I think it’s a huge success.

Sandra Morgan 22:41

I was very excited about that launch because I know that hope is an integral piece in preventing the more desperate consequences to sextortion. And in the Sextortion: The Hidden Pandemic film that you were an expert speaker on it tells the story of a child who took her own life in desperation, and Take It Down gives hope and it’s really important for people to have hope that everything isn’t over. We’ve got processes, we have investigators like you who are making a difference and finding a new pathway to combat the predators that are out there on the internet. I’ll put a link to Sextortion. We don’t have time to talk about sextortion a lot today. But what I want to ask now, because my students and we have students all over the world that listen to this podcast, they’re going to ask: how did you, Erin, get that job?

Erin Burke 23:49

So it’s interesting. I’m not one of the people that grew up saying I was going to be in law enforcement. But I grew up when the CSI time was pretty exciting and brand new. So that crime scene stuff was exciting and new. So I went to college, and I basically did psychology, sociology and a criminal justice minor. And then from there, I kind of, I don’t know, I started developing the idea that I wanted to get into some kind of forensics or something like that. And I had some professors who were special agents. And that kind of pushed me in the right direction, just chatting with them. I had some great professors that were fun to talk to and told me about their job. So then I went to George Washington University for forensic science, and then just solidified that I definitely wanted to do something in law enforcement. Like a lot of people who join the federal government, I put a lot of applications out there and the first one that came back to me right after I graduated was Customs and Border Protection, formerly US Customs. And I was a customs inspector for three years, then decided I really wanted to do criminal investigation. That’s where my passion is, I really want to dig into these and you know, it’s like complex problems you want to solve, so then I became a special agent with Homeland Security Investigations. And then that’s it. It’s actually over 19 years now that I’ve been in federal law enforcement and I wouldn’t do anything else, I absolutely love my job. And then the child exploitation side, HSI does everything. We are the investigative arm of Homeland Security, we do everything. When you read my bio, all those things. My first group I was assigned to as a baby agent, was a child exploitation group. I was out on a what we call a knock and talk on day two of starting my career, basically, after training, and that was it. I saw children being rescued due to our work. And I saw really, really bad guys getting put in jail for a really long time. And that kind of solidified my passion. And then I did a lot of different things as a special agent. But I always circle back to child exploitation, because that’s where my heart is. And yeah, so I had the opportunity to come to headquarters, and eventually got to basically run the child exploitation program. And I couldn’t ask for a better job. I love being a part of this, and I’ll do other things within HSI. But in the end, this is something I’ll do for life. Even when I retire, I will do something in this field as well.

Sandra Morgan 26:14

Wow, that’s such a great response. And I love how you brought into your academic pursuits, psychology and sociology, as well as criminal justice. Just like in 20 seconds, explain what forensic science is.

Erin Burke 26:33

So it’s funny, I don’t use forensic science really in my job, but that’s okay. It’s basically I did, it’s like crunching, it’s like CSI but for real. So the master’s program at George Washington that I was in, we basically learned every aspect of forensic science. So between DNA crime scene processing, all the different styles and breakdowns of all the illicit drugs, anything you can think of when there’s crimes out there, when those folks come in and have to process the crimes and deal with the crime, the science side of it, that’s what I went to school for, although I haven’t really utilized that. But that’s okay. I love doing the psychological side now and trying to figure these crimes out.

Sandra Morgan 27:15

We are so grateful that you are so passionate and so excellent at what you do. And we’re going to have to invite you back because we want to learn more about Angel Watch. In the meantime, we’re inviting our listeners to go on over to the endinghumantrafficking.org website and subscribe so that you get regular updates, you can find links to the things that Erin mentioned here. You can look at the resources at the Global Center for Women and Justice, especially our Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate. And we have students literally around the world in that certificate. So please come join us again in two weeks for our next conversation. Thanks, Erin.

Erin Burke 28:06

Thank you so much.

View Details

Jamie Manirakiza, LMSWJamie Manirakiza, has over 10 years of experience in the field of anti-human trafficking. As the Executive Director of Partnership to End Human Trafficking, she brings her experience working in various roles throughout the Northeast. Prior to joining PEHT, Jamie, held several key roles with The Salvation Army. Her longest position was in Greater Philadelphia as Director of Anti Trafficking for the New Day to Stop Trafficking Program. Most notably, Jamie helped to start a drop-in center for women victimized by the commercial sex industry in 2010, incorporating models of harm reduction, motivational interviewing, and the Sanctuary Model ® for trauma-informed care. Jamie was also part of the founding team to open up a residential program for survivors of sex or labor trafficking in the Greater Philadelphia region. In 2018, Jamie transitioned to work as the Territorial Anti Human Trafficking Program Coordinator for The Salvation Army Eastern Territorial Headquarters in New York. As Territorial Anti Human Trafficking Program Coordinator, she developed, implemented, evaluated, and supported the ongoing growth of direct survivor service programs and coalition building on a regional scale. She has managed numerous Department of Justice Office for Victims of Crimes grants to provide comprehensive victim services in various States across the Northeast. Jamie has consulted for Tahirih Justice Center, and provided training as a consultant for OVC-TTAC. Jamie continues to serve as an adjunct professor for Vanguard University’s Human Trafficking Certificate Program and has consulted on crime victim services for a number of national organizations on promising practices and trauma-informed care. Jamie is a founding Board of Advisor member for the Villanova University School of Law Institute to Address Commercial Sexual Exploitation. Jamie received her MSW degree from the University of Pennsylvania and is a licensed social worker.

Resources* Partnership to End Human Trafficking * Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate

View Details

Sandie Morgan is joined by Derek Marsh, Associate Director of the Global Center for Women and Justice. They discuss Derek’s BJA Fellowship on human trafficking and how law enforcement and task forces can be more proactive in investigating and assisting labor trafficking.

Derek Marsh, MA, MPADerek Marsh retired from the Westminster PD, CA, after more than 26 years of service. In 2004, Marsh helped start the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force (OCHTTF). He served as the co-chair of the OCHFFT from 2004-12. During that time, he developed and taught courses in human trafficking across the state of California, provided oversight to human trafficking investigations, assisted in creating HT DVDs, wrote multiple grants, and provided Congressional testimony twice as a HT expert witness. He has presented anti-HT trainings across California and the United States, Saipan, Italy, and Argentina. He taught HT as an undergraduate course at Vanguard University, CA, from 2009 to present. He develops and teaches criminal justice and human trafficking courses. He has served with the United Nations to train Rwandan immigration officials, law enforcement, prosecutors, and NGOs over four intensive seminars in 2017. He has an MA in Human Behavior, an MPA in Police Management & Leadership, and graduated from FBINA Class #224. Currently, D.C. Marsh works as the Assistant Director at the Global Center for Women and Justice. He is researching how human trafficking task forces identify, investigate, and prosecute labor trafficking cases throughout the United States through on-site visits and review of historical task force and federal performance documents. He is helping to develop and provide training and technical assistance through the BIA, TTAC, and OVC-TTAC agencies. His expertise in Criminal Justice will contribute to the research, education, and advocacy mission of the Global Center for Women and Justice.

Key Points* From 2015-2018, Derek Marsh was a visiting fellow with the Bureau of Justice Assistance to conduct research on human trafficking. * Across the board, we are missing labor trafficking cases due to a lack proactive investigations. * The history of trafficking investigations in the U.S. shows a striking shift from labor to sex trafficking in 2009. * To successfully address labor trafficking, we need to redefine what success means. * The goal for law enforcement and prosecution should be to seek justice and closure for victims, whether it be via a criminal or civil case. * Building a task force that is equipped to address labor trafficking looks different than a task force to address sex trafficking.

Resources* 2022 Trafficking in Persons Report * Ep. 187 – Why is Labor Trafficking so Hard to Find? * Human Trafficking Institute – Federal Reports * Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate Program

Love the show? Consider supporting us on Patreon!Become a PatronTranscriptDave [00:00:00] You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode 290, BJA Fellowship Review, with Derek Marsh.

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today we have back a frequent guest of ours, Sandie, our associate director here at the Global Center for Women and Justice, Derek Marsh. Derek, so glad to have you back with us.

Derek [00:00:55] Glad to be back. Thanks for having me.

Sandie [00:00:57] So, Derek, you were adjunct here before you retired from Westminster Police Department, where you started the first iteration of the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force. Before you came, though, to work here as the associate director at the Global Center you did a BJA fellowship. So I thought it would be really fun for us to talk about what that look like. BJA means Bureau of Justice Assistance. So let’s talk about that. What was your purpose and why did you take on an absolute gargantuan task?

Derek [00:01:43] Well, it was a task of pleasure. I got to tell you, I really enjoyed my time with BJA as a fellow in human trafficking. I had just retired in 2013. They put out a notice, much like a solicitation for a grant and I for a change I wrote a grant for me as opposed to other people. And I was lucky enough to be selected to participate. So I went from 2015 to 2018 as a visiting fellow in human trafficking with the Bureau of Justice Assistance. And my major focus was labor trafficking. Understanding promising practices about how people were pursuing it, how they were investigating it, how they discovered it, even somehow how they prosecuted it. My hope was to reinforce some studies that had gone on before, and that was my initial start in working with the BJA.

Sandie [00:02:29] I’ve talked about this with some of my students and they did not get the idea of what a fellow is and why it isn’t gender specific. Can you explain what that actually entails?

Derek [00:02:42] Sure. The BJA and OVC and other programs as well, they will bring people out from the field, if you will, who are actively practicing the field or have recently practiced in the field on different topics. There was a person there when I was there dealing with prisons and incarceration issues. There was people there dealing with victim service agencies, non-government organizations. It really depends on what their need is. And so what they do is they bring folks in who have expertise in these different fields and they basically have them work on a project related to their expertise, which would then be contributed to the OVC, BJA, or whatever DOJ group is sponsoring them, so that they have a little bit more expertise when putting together solicitations and other issues regarding the particular topic. Again, for me being human trafficking.

Sandie [00:03:29] Okay, thank you for clarifying that. So your primary focus was labor trafficking, but also you were looking at the collaborative process, right?

Derek [00:03:41] Correct. Obviously no one does this as an island. So there was and I wanted to understand how labor trafficking was pursued, but I understood that with labor trafficking there is a distinctive collaborative element. And my curiosity was, is a collaboration focused on labor trafficking equivalent to a generic human trafficking collaboration for a task force. Or does it have a little difference from sex trafficking, the labor trafficking?

Sandie [00:04:09] Okay. So what was your original intention?

Derek [00:04:13] Well, my original intention was to investigate how people were pursuing labor trafficking. And so I was trying to figure out, like better practices, promising practices with regards to investigations, case development, prosecution strategies. But what I found was that still, after the task forces have been around since 2003, as far as solicitations go, most taskforces were not pursuing labor trafficking actively. They would take the case if it fell on their lap, but they wouldn’t proactively pursue it. And so I switched my view from ‘What are you doing and how are you doing it’ to ‘How do we get more people or how do we get more taskforces to be established and developed to focus more on labor trafficking?’

Sandie [00:05:02] So, I love the fact that you use the word proactive investigations, because just yesterday I was having a conversation here in Orange County, and when I mentioned labor trafficking, they interrupted and said, ‘Oh, we have a much bigger problem with sex trafficking.’ And I smiled and said, that’s because that’s what we’re looking for. It is harder to look for labor trafficking. So if you have a really good track record of convictions on sex trafficking, that doesn’t necessarily mean that there’s no labor trafficking.

Derek [00:05:44] Well, we do what we were we’re comfortable doing. It’s kind of low laying fruit. And I’m not minimizing the pursuit of sex trafficking. I think it’s critical to the human trafficking movement. And honestly, without sex trafficking, whether it’s foreign and more emphasized on domestic here in the United States, human trafficking wouldn’t be as relevant and consistently pursued as it is today. However, when you look at NGO, non-government organizations, and their work with victim-survivors of human trafficking, many of them have higher numbers of victim-survivors who are labor trafficking victims than they do sex trafficking. And that tells me that we are missing cases across the board. And it’s not just in California, it’s just not in New York. It’s not just in Florida. It’s everywhere, everywhere across the board. Wherever you go, there are always at least some labor trafficking, a significant sum of labor trafficking victims that are being addressed, at least on the NGO social services side. Even if the law enforcement side of the task force isn’t pursuing those investigations.

Sandie [00:06:47] So this really turned into an action research project. And so you had to figure out how to gather the data to fulfill your fellowship. So how did you connect with task forces? How did you get them to cooperate?

Derek [00:07:07] I was, again, OVC, Office of Victims of Crime, and BJA, where I was stationed at–are actually in the same building by the way in different floors. But they were super supportive. And without their help and their advice and their mentorship, I wouldn’t be able to figure out myself. What it came down to is we were pursuing regional training through eight year old OVC-BJA which allowed me to meet task forces, both that were federally funded and non-federally funded. I also was able to connect with various task force folks telephonically. This is before Zoom was an active issues and then obviously I was also very fortunate to be allowed to actually travel to at least say 20, if not more sites, to actually visually observe and, not necessarily participate, but to kind of walk along, if you will, to see how people were pursuing or not pursuing labor trafficking cases.

Sandie [00:07:59] Okay. So you’ve already identified that most of the labor trafficking cases kind of fell into their hands, but were rarely actively pursued. There wasn’t an intentional outreach, intentional proactive investigation strategies. So what were the challenges that made task forces ill equipped? Is that too much to say, to really understand how to develop a proactive strategy?

Derek [00:08:37] Well, I would say they’re equipped. I would say that the emphasis they were pursuing was more sex trafficking focused. And if we look for a context, I would say around 2009, the enhanced collaborative model solicitation came out where both the NGO and the law enforcement task forces were expected to write a mutual request, a solicitation to show that they were interacting with each other and they were mutually supporting each other. And at that same time, the emphasis shifted from foreign national human trafficking to domestic. And that was a shift that needed to happen. I’m not minimizing that. But because of that, the emphasis before, because a lot of labor trafficking, a majority we’ve run into has been foreign national based. Once that shift went to domestic, and specifically domestic minor sex trafficking, the world shifted because now you were dealing with a topic which law enforcement had an extensive experience with because vice investigations are part and parcel of what you’re doing in law enforcement all the time. At least one group or one person or one detective has that responsible. Just about every PD that has more than 125 personnel. And so they immediately begin to go for, again, the low laying fruit, their experience with these vice type of investigations. And it became an almost immediate shift. If you look at the numbers as reported in the TIP reports, you can see that in 2009, I believe, there was actually more labor trafficking than sex trafficking. It’s the only time in the 22 years of the TVPA that’s been documented is such lists from the federal level. And then immediately you see the graph like separate and sex trafficking investigations skyrocket and labor trafficking dives. And this last TIP Report, Trafficking in Persons Report, shows if you look at the percentages, not the numbers, 97% of the cases federally reported were sex trafficking, whereas 3% were labor trafficking. And I know that they’re trying harder to focus on labor trafficking. I’m not trying to minimize those efforts or the results of those efforts, but it’s a huge disparity and it doesn’t represent the victim survivor pool that we have throughout the U.S.

Sandie [00:10:48] Okay. So what’s the answer to that?

Derek [00:10:52] Well, I don’t know if there’s one answer. I recommended a number of things in my final paper with the BJA, and they were very open. And I’ve seen some changes along the way. And just because I recommended it didn’t mean it had to be done. I mean, there’s realities as far as being able to support and finance things. So I don’t mean to say that only my answers are right. However, I think that really to change how you successfully pursue labor trafficking had to do with understanding what success was. Because, in the past, success and again, BJA and OVC have been changing this dramatically before by and into my initial fellowship, it was a numbers game. It’s like how many arrests can you make? How many contacts can you make? How can you document to show that you’re busy, if that makes sense. But then as you begin to look at more qualitative issues, then you want to start saying, well, how many of these are sex versus labor trafficking? Why is there a disparity that way? Why is your NGO showing half of their victim-survivors are labor trafficking, but your investigations only show one or two labor trafficking investigations per year. So, it’s that disparity that you have to look at. And then a lot of it came as a result of the way we define success. Labor trafficking cases usually take much longer to pursue. They’re frequently, he said-she said. We’re going to have one or two people that can confirm there’s no actual evidence later you could do. They are hugely victim-survivor based, which makes it problematic and really a cornerstone of many cases is on the victim-survivor. If they choose not to cooperate, the prosecution is without help. However, when I’m talking about definition of success, I think it’s also important to think that even if you may not criminally be able to prove something, then instead we could look at things like administrative sanctions, civil remedies to sue the suspects or the suspect groups, if it’s a business or an organization, to provide financial compensation for how these people were treated, exploited or labor trafficked. I think that’s important to pursue. Also, I want to focus on the fact that even getting someone or pursuing a T-visa or any kind of status here in the U.S. would be considered a win, if you will, towards labor trafficking. So, I would say that was one major component. Looking at these, just redefining what success and measuring success entails for labor trafficking.

Sandie [00:13:16] So, when when I’ve had conversations with particularly law enforcement officers, they’re very frustrated by the lack of prosecution quickly and they make an arrest. They think this should go down in their in their stats and then it like almost evaporates. And that’s very disheartening. And so it sounds from your perspective that we actually need to have a new way of looking at this. And it reminded me of a previous episode where we interviewed the civil attorneys Ahn and Rena, and we’ll put the the link in the show notes. But they were able, through a civil case, to establish a labor trafficking case in a way that was much more difficult in a criminal case. And when I try to explain that, I’m not good at that because I’m not the law enforcement person. So I want you to explain why that makes a difference in prosecuting a case.

Derek [00:14:36] Well, again, when you look at a civil case versus a criminal case. In a civil case, you’re looking at preponderance of the evidence. You’re looking at 50.1% is sufficient to find a suspect or organization, if we’re looking at practices within the organization as being held responsible for promoting or allowing labor trafficking to occur under their watch or under their agencies or under the umbrella of that organization. Whereas, if you go to a criminal trial, it’s proof beyond a reasonable doubt, which is like 99.9%. So there’s a significant difference in what you have to prove and how much you have to prove. So civil remedies can be much more successful. I think the Human Trafficking Institute repeatedly during their yearly reports, has shown that a lot of labor trafficking cases have gone the civil route because it is a he said-she said. And it is important for us if we’re to get from a victim centered, trauma informed approach, that we do provide them as much potential for closure as we can. So, yeah, maybe you cannot prosecute because you don’t have that proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And I respect that. I’m definitely not criticizing prosecutors for being responsible and not wasting our time, in a sense, wasting the time of the court with cases that can’t move forward. But I still think there are other remedies that can be had that not only promote our victim’s accusations as being legitimate, but also provide some kind of monetary reimbursement so that they can move forward because they’re here legitimately. Most of them come here legally anyway, according to reports. Over 70% come here legitimately and they all come out of status once they try to get out of those conditions. So, I don’t think that we’re really talking about people who are coming across the border out of status to begin with. As a whole, there may be some, I’m not saying there aren’t, but I think on the whole, these people have tried legitimately to go through and still been taken advantage of, still been trafficked. And just by leaving because of the way our H-2 visas work and things, I know we’re working on changing that, but currently that if you leave the person who sponsors you, you leave the organization that sponsors you, suddenly you’re out of status. And I understand the need for that in the past, but that allows traffickers to have much more control over their victims than they should. So it’s just a horrible, hard way to come to a final conclusion. So forget the prosecution if you have to from a criminal perspective. If you can do it from a civil perspective, sure, it’s going to take more time. But we’re used to labor trafficking taking years more than some sex trafficking cases. But at least the victims receive some kind of closure on the case, some validation for what’s occurred to them and some monetary recompense.

Sandie [00:17:19] And that restitution is part of the restorative justice that we’ve talked about here in the past. And it seems like it’s more realistic to punish the business, the company that’s actually exploiting someone’s labor and controlling their movements and just however they use them, whether it’s in a cleaning company, a hotel, or out in the fields. So that punishment to the business perhaps has more of a deterrent effect than finding one person and prosecuting them and putting them in prison because the company has lots of other people. That’s how I see it.

Derek [00:18:09] And I agree. I think that, again, the idea here is not so much to create an impossible standard for people to try to prosecute cases that really aren’t prosecutable in the normal sense of the term, but to find some kind of closure for our victims if we can. And how do you arrest a corporation, how do you arrest an organization that is trafficking? I mean, you could pick individuals who are the primary, and I think that’s legitimate. However, if it’s a 50-50 chance, if you can prosecute someone versus a 90% chance you could civilly hold the organization accountable, what makes more sense? I think it makes more sense to pursue that organization as long as it can be proved that they had some culpability in it. And I’m not trying to give money away, either. I don’t to make it seem like I’m just a money tree or Santa Claus. I mean, even criminal cases require restitution in these cases that be assessed against the people trafficked folks, whether it’s sex or labor trafficking. So we’re not asking for anything that they wouldn’t get if there was a criminal prosecution as well.

Sandie [00:19:06] Okay. So what else can we do to be more successful in our anti-labor trafficking efforts?

Derek [00:19:15] Well, I think another aspect of this is the task force and coalition members that we choose. When we’re looking at a generic task force, they are great. They’re very focused. They have multiple issues we’re focusing on. We have our NGOs, we have our psychological support, we have shelters, food, all these different people who are contributing. Businesses, faith based community, as well as our state, local, federal law enforcement partners. So all of those are great. However, I think with labor trafficking, you have to focus more on those institutions that have labor in their title or labor in their expertise. Remember, again, that from a local law enforcement perspective, labor isn’t something we pursue. I remember going to cases where you have everything from people being upset about their wage to people being upset of how their car was repaired and all we would say, go to civil court, go to civil court, go to civil court. And that was the answer because we don’t adjudicate civil issues. Whereas with labor trafficking, the initial impression may be, well, that sounds like a civil problem. Whether they got the wage you were promised or whether they got enough breaks. I mean, that’s not on me. And you’re right, exploitation itself isn’t on law enforcement. However, labor trafficking investigations involve criminal activity. Threats against people. Threatening people with keeping their documents of abuse, of substandard housing, of not feeding people, making them exposed to hazardous conditions and things like that. All of those are criminal activities that aren’t just labor thinks. But again, as law enforcement, we don’t often deal with that. So we have to team up with organizations that have that labor expertise and we’re talking about that. If you’re talking about your documents, State Department is a great crew to do it. If you’re looking at the labor itself, the Department of Labor Wage and Hour is critical. They also have an OIG Department that can actually prosecute and pursue things on a criminal level, too, whereas the wage and hour is more administrative; it’s civilly focused. EEOC can be a part of things, as well. You can team up with your local consulates to understand what the different populations at the communities are going through, because they would have insight into that as well. Your faith based communities are huge because a lot of them go to church and the one thing they are allowed to do is go to church and participate in worship. It may be that through those insights and understanding those people, you can get some insights on what’s going on. So you want to compose your task force a little bit differently and a focus on those types of NGOs, non-government organizations, that have expertise with contacting people in whatever field that they may be being exploited or trafficked in. And also you want to make sure that they’re ethnically aware, culturally, you know, balance perspectives and understand the language they’re speaking so they can communicate better, understand exactly what’s happening, and feel a degree of trust.

Sandie [00:22:04] And I love that you mentioned that they often are, the victims are often allowed to attend a church. And we did a training for pastors years ago, and within two weeks they identified three labor trafficking victims because of the trust that they had already built. And I think we have a tendency to expect law enforcement to be able to instantly identify and gain the trust for a victim to actually disclose. So, because we’re running out of time, I do want to go back to the task force model and what can we do from the law enforcement perspective to promote the anti-labor trafficking efforts that the enhanced collaborative model grants require as deliverables?

Derek [00:23:03] Well, I think, number one, when it comes to task forces, your different agencies have agency heads, whoever they may be, male or female, doesn’t matter to me. They need to lead from the front. They need to imbue or enhance or just talk to their folks that are representing these task forces. Let them know that labor trafficking is as much a priority as sex trafficking is. I’m not saying you ignore a sex trafficking case if it comes, but you need to be able to make that happen. You also need to dedicate, if you have the resources, because we’re in a world where resources are scarce. But if you have resources, I mean by resource people this time, to specifically pursue labor trafficking cases. Over and over again, I went to task forces that had split and said, well, they’re half sex trafficking and half labor trafficking. And guess what? It just doesn’t work. Because every time a sex trafficking case comes around, and there are plenty of them, unfortunately the person would be obligated, and rightfully so, to pursue that sex trafficking case. If you can isolate one person, say all you do is labor trafficking, you have a much better chance of getting labor trafficking prosecution, or at least the case generated. And finally, with that dedicated person, you need to go out in to those areas where most law enforcement are not used to going into and interact on community groups, to ethnic communities and make those connections with those agencies that are already built rapport in those areas and try to establish that rapport. Because unfortunately, when it comes to foreign national victims, a lot of them don’t trust law enforcement inherently, and especially we don’t speak the language and you don’t look like them they have a tendency not to believe that you can support them or help them. And so it goes a long way to having that person who’s dedicated actually going out to the community and developing relationships with these different organizations because it’s important and it is kind of a PR job. I know most police are like, Wow, I want to go out there and arrest people and, trust me, I sympathize with that 110%. But with labor trafficking is as much about building bridges and establishing rapport as it is about pursuing cases, because most of your cases aren’t going to be found, in fact, almost all of them are not going to be found by your officer driving down the street. They’re going to be found by these organizations who are out there interacting with field laborers or people in different industries. That’s how you’re going to get your reports and find your potential labor trafficking cases. That’s the way you be proactive in labor trafficking.

Sandie [00:25:30] Wow. So your fellowship gave you an opportunity to get a much broader perspective from all the way from New York to California.

Derek [00:25:40] Right. And I can’t thank them enough for that opportunity. I’ll tell you what, the fellowship was initially going to be 18 months. And they were very generous in extending it to be almost three years. And as law enforcement used to be behind the curtain and understanding who that in the Wizard of Oz, that guy behind the curtain. So it’s always fun to be behind the curtain again even after you retire and feel like you’re in the know. And having that fellowship gave me a perspective I never would have had before. Understanding how the grant administrators and the policy advisors who are all very enlightened, smart, dedicated people, work behind the scenes to try to make these task forces help our victim survivors become independent and not forget, but work through the issues they have as best they can with being victimized. They are truly humanitarian people. And it was a pleasure to be with them. And I just thank God every day that I had that opportunity to be with them at that time.

Sandie [00:26:35] Well, and we here at the Global Center are also very grateful because you brought all of that expertise to our anti-human trafficking certificate program that we launched. And now we have a labor trafficking case. And so if you are listening, you have a law enforcement or victim service credential and you have that kind of knowledge and you want to layer it with the specifics of the expertise around labor trafficking and policies and grants deliverables, please take a look at our anti-human trafficking certificate program. Derek’s been really vital in making sure it’s cutting edge and in developing a dual pathway. Tell us about our professional development process.

Derek [00:27:32] Oh, so after several years of begging and pleading and stomping, and with your support, we were able to establish now two different tracks. We have an academic track where you’re actually getting college credits, if you need them that’s great. It is a more expensive track because it’s per unit. There are three units per course, four courses for the certificate. These are paying for 12 units overall. However, there’s a professional track. For those people who don’t need those units, if you want to learn the issues, that cost is $399 a course, which is significantly less than a normal course. You still do all the coursework minus the big paper, so you’re welcome. But you still need it and you still need to take the four courses. That doesn’t minimize the requirement. But between the academic and the professional, we know there are so many people out there that just can’t afford it. Being a private institution, our prices are what they are. But I think that now you can get a certificate for under $1600 dollars, whereas before that was barely one course or just under one course. So I think we really have an opportunity here, especially if we could get people cohorts to come through, and then we could probably tailor the program more to a group of 7 to 10 people and you could knock it out in a couple semesters and we’d be happy to help provide any kind of assistance in that way.

Sandie [00:28:46] Thank you, Derek.

Derek [00:28:47] Thank you for having me. It’s really exciting to be part of this process and of course, hear the podcast. I mean, good grief, Ending Human Trafficking has been around for over a decade now, so it’s always a pleasure to be a part of it.

Dave [00:28:56] Thank you both for this conversation. We’re inviting you to take the next step to go over to Endinghumantrafficking.org. That’s where you can find a ton of the resources we’ve mentioned in this conversation, including information on the certificate program that Sandie and Derek and some many here at the Global Center for Women and Justice at Vanguard University have worked tirelessly over recent years to put together and with the options that we’ve now mentioned. So we’re inviting you to do that. And if you haven’t visited that site before, that’s also a great first step for you. If you go online there, you’re going to find an opportunity to download a copy of Sandie’s guide, The Five Things You Must Know: A Quick Start Guide to Ending Human Trafficking. It’ll help you identify the five critical things that we have been researching in our work that you should know before you join the fight against human trafficking. You can get access to it just by going over to Endinghumantrafficking.org. And a reminder that our next conference is upcoming very soon, March 3rd and 4th, 2023. Details for the Ensure Justice conference are at GCWJ.org/ensurejustice. You can join us here in Southern California for our annual event and an opportunity to learn so much more. And perhaps just as importantly, if not more so, to build the relationships and connections in person with so many others who have a heart to support the work that we’re doing to end human trafficking. Hope you’ll go over to Endinghumantrafficking.org for all the details there. And of course, we will be back in two weeks for our next conversation.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by survivor, author, and advocate, Keeya Vawar. Together they discuss partnership between allies and survivors, survivors redesigning their life, and much more!

Keeya VawarKeeya Vawar advocates for victims of sex trafficking globally. She is a lived experience survivor expert, mentor, speaker and author of “One Thousand Elsewhere: A True Survivor Story.” A powerful voice of hope in a growing ecosystem of despair, her motivation and passion for youth and women of all ages is inextricably linked to her own story of hardship and survival against insurmountable odds.

info@keeyavawar.com | Instagram: @keeyasays | Facebook Page: Keep Encouraging Everyone Young At HeartKey Points* Healing is a lifelong journey that requires lifelong assistance. * Inadequate services and unrealistic expectations can lead victims back into the life. * Survivor mentors and non-survivor mentors both play a significant role in the healing process as allies to survivors. * Redesigning your life

Resources Keeya Vawar * One Thousand Elsewhere: A True Survivor Story* by Keeya Vawar * 275 – Reflections on Human Trafficking from a Community Leader * Bochy’s Place * Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate Program * Ensure Justice Conference – March 3-4, 2023

Love the show? Consider supporting us on Patreon!Become a PatronTranscriptDave [00:00:00] You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 289 Survivor Led Advocacy, with Keeya Vawar.

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:34] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, of course, one of the most important voices we always have as part of these conversations is the voice and the experience of survivors. I’m so glad to welcome today Keeya Vawar. She is an advocate for victims of sex trafficking globally. She has the lived experience as a survivor expert, mentor, and speaker and author of One Thousand Elsewhere: A True Survivor Story. Keeya, we’re so glad to have you with us today.

Keeya [00:01:13] It’s my honor to be here.

Sandie [00:01:14] I’m really excited to meet you because Antipas Harris, Dr. Antipas Harris is the one who introduced us. So big shout out. And he was on Episode 275 Reflections on Human Trafficking from a Community Leader. And he told me that you are a powerful advocacy leader, your voice, your story, and you’re just a beacon of light. So let’s dig in and tell me a little bit, first of all, about your lifetime goals.

Keeya [00:01:56] I’ve ten goals. You know, pretty simple. I want to make impact in the space against human trafficking. Simply put, I use my story to do that right now. But really, to continue on this journey of training and directly being involved in the lives of survivors. And so that’s it’s simply put, I could do this for the rest of my life.

Sandie [00:02:24] And you told your story in a book called One Thousand Elsewhere: A True Survivor Story. How did you choose the title One Thousand Elsewhere?

Keeya [00:02:39] Well, I chose the title based on my faith. And there was a scripture in Psalm 84:10 that said, “Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere.” I’d rather be a doorkeeper in the House of the Lord then dwell in the tents of the wicked. And I think about the years that I discussed in my book as being the journey to elsewhere. It was everything else in between doing right things. It was my story of struggle. It was my story of victimization. But also my story of escape.

Sandie [00:03:15] Well, let’s start right there with your story of escape and what you see as the first steps when a survivor literally escapes that being elsewhere.

Keeya [00:03:29] Right. And, you know, it’s complicated. For me, I can say that I didn’t go or experience a rescue that was formal. I simply reached out to my brother, who I finally, after years of hiding the truth of what I was doing as a teenage runaway. I reached out to him from a psych ward and I told him that I needed a place to stay. And I shared with him what I had been through. And he drove from Dallas, Texas to Elizabeth, New Jersey to get me off the 13th floor of the Elizabeth Emergency Care Unit. And I started my life over again at his house. And so back then, in 1997, there was no program to rescue someone out of human trafficking. They didn’t even call it that then. There was no terminology other than juvenile delinquent and prostitute. And so it’s only in recent years that we’ve developed language around sex trafficking. And so to give that definition for your listeners who are not aware. Of course, sex trafficking is the act or practice of illegally transporting people from one country or area to another for the purpose of sexual exploitation. But this could also happen on the Internet, of course. In my case, that was not what happened. I was a runaway and it happened physically.

Sandie [00:05:02] And you didn’t even have to leave the country to be exploited.

Keeya [00:05:06] No, I didn’t. I didn’t. But I did cross state lines. I left from Dallas, Texas to Atlanta, Georgia. And that’s when my journey of being trafficked began.

Sandie [00:05:20] So let’s focus on what your process was once your brother picked you up. It wasn’t like, okay, now I’m fine. But you described a life time process. Can you give us a little more information?

Keeya [00:05:40] Absolutely. It actually started off because my exit from sex trafficking happened by accident. I wasn’t trying to escape. I had become comfortable over a six year period of that lifestyle, money that it brought, et cetera, et cetera. And I had a nervous breakdown. And that nervous breakdown caused me to pause everything just to find out who I was. And so through that and having a new moniker of bipolar disorder and post-traumatic stress along with ADHD, I began a journey that was on and off again with mental health providers, and it was a rocky road. I felt as though initially something was wrong with me, and so I really did not like taking my medication and going and talking to a counselor about every bad thing that happened to me. I felt that it meant if I accepted that, that something really was wrong with me. And so over the years, and it took over ten years for me to come to grips with the fact that I did, as a result of those battle scars, have a mental illness that I needed to deal with. And when I took that seriously and I educated myself and I realized that, oh, I’m not the only person who has these type of issues. That’s when my healing journey truly began. The time in between, I was just trying to go under the radar unnoticed. I didn’t want anyone to know what I had experienced. I was young enough to where I could hide it, quote unquote. So I thought. And so I just tried to assimilate back into regular, normal society and keep that part of my life a closed door and a topic that was not to be brought up. But, yes, once I came to grips with the fact that the mental health professionals were there to help me and actually provide solutions–like I said, it took me about ten years to come to that agreement–then the little changes began to happen.

Sandie [00:08:01] So we here use the terminology of survivor informed practitioners, professionals, volunteers. And your insight on this process is especially helpful for newcomers who are often expecting a 90 day turnaround. How would you advise volunteers who want to get involved in working 1-to-1 to serve newly identified victims who are on their journey to survivor?

Keeya [00:08:43] Well, Dr. Sandie, that’s a wonderful question. I would, first of all, encourage them to set realistic expectations. It is going to take more than 90 days to have that turnaround. I’m grateful for the optimism of people who believe that that’s all that it takes. But that’s not all that it takes. It’s a lifelong journey. Survivors, victims of sex trafficking need a lifelong line of assistance. Or community, excuse me, of assistance. And it many times takes years for them to actually get their footing and understand what it takes to live in this outback lifestyle. And unfortunately, there is a high number of people coming out of that lifestyle who return because they don’t maybe have adequate mental health care or maybe they don’t have a program or maybe they have a program, but unrealistic expectations on what it really takes to unlearn the behaviors of being abused. And so what does that mean? Let me break it down. There are people coming out who have children, got mothers, even fathers, because this doesn’t just happen to women. This also happens to men. Okay. And that’s very important. Even though the vast majority of cases that we know of involve women, there are still many men who are affected and many boys who are affected. And so there are so many different things. I’ll just give you an example. My life. So for me, it took I was 25 years of age before I got my GED. And the reason why I waited so long, even though that I knew that it was important and education was important, is I did not feel smart. I felt if I was smart, I would not be in the situations that I was in that would cause me to lose so much self-esteem and human dignity. And so therefore, to even try to get me to understand that I was smart enough and that all I needed was training to be able to get that GED, it took quite some time of convincing. And I had a mother and I had a brother who loved me and who tried to gently convince me that I was, first of all, smart enough. So there are so many layers that are built into the life of someone who is trying to survive, not turn back. So there’s the basic needs. I didn’t have a work history. I needed a job. And so I did not have basic skills that were necessary above a cashier. And so the first job that I got was at Wendy’s. But when you are 23 years of age and most of your peers are in college, it is a struggle. And so I needed a lot of encouragement. And so survivors who were once victims, they need a lot of encouragement. They need structured assistance in how to build routines. And, you know, they come from different walks of life. Everyone does not come from being a run away like I did. There are very educated women who I met along my path who are in college, who obtained degrees, yet still had pimps because that’s how they paid their way through college. All right. So there are so many different scenarios. But to support a survivor who was once a victim, it’s going to take longer than 90 days.

Sandie [00:12:28] Absolutely.

Keeya [00:12:28] And it’s also going to take understanding that there may be mental illness to deal with, self-esteem issues and things of that nature. And it takes time. I believe I heard a neuroscientist, I believe her name is Dr. Caroline Leaf said it takes 21 days to break a habit and three cycles of that for one habit. So that’s about 63 days for one habit. So not to mention trauma, which is much more involved.

Sandie [00:12:57] So you’re you’re giving some really wise advice that anyone who works with survivors of exploitation, violence. Your description of not feeling smart and how when people tried to encourage you, you reframed that in the context of feeling more responsible for what you experienced. And it kind of reminds me of working with a domestic violence survivor who once told me when people say how awful my abuser was, they think they’re making me feel better. But instead they’re making me feel not very smart for getting involved. And this idea of well intentioned volunteers, social workers, law enforcement teachers and family members listening to the survivor and understanding and following their lead on where they are and how they’re responding to their situation at the moment. And when we do that, we become and I loved the way you framed this when we had another conversation. They really become allies. And I think we could talk a little bit about how important allies are to the survivor experience.

Keeya [00:14:42] That’s huge. That’s huge. And you know, just another point before that, with domestic violence, it is well known that it takes approximately 11 attempts to escape in order for that escape to be final. And that’s just another thought for the volunteer to understand that this is more complex.

Sandie [00:15:05] And we can stay there for a minute, Keeya, because that is one of the biggest discouragements that especially law enforcement and direct victim service providers. We were doing so well and she left. But understanding that parallel. We learned this before and she’s going to be back. We’re going to get her back.

Keeya [00:15:29] It’s unfortunate truth, but yeah, it can be very disappointing to see that process. But I would say stay the course, stay. Help those who you can, because there are those who do get away or turn back. And I’m a living witness of that. But it is harrowing.

Sandie [00:15:50] So then lived experience survivor led survivor voices encompasses a really broad set of practices and different expressions of what that looks like. And you explain to me how important having allies in your survivor journey has been. And what role do those allies play?

Keeya [00:16:23] So the necessity of allies and survivors is that you have survivors who are reaching out to victims to help them make that leap to survivor hood. And to help them to abandon their pasts and start their new path. Healing and normalcy, if at all possible. However, they have gone through things that require a lot of sensitivity, a lot of therapy, and new learned behaviors have to be established, et cetera, et cetera. So it’s quite a task and each situation is not going to be the same. There’s a lot of complexities. And so you need to have the teamwork of survivors and allies because the survivor can identify one, I would say an emotional level and a lived experience level. But then you have the ally who brings another set of skills. You would need to be able to have someone to come in who does not have the emotional attachment to be able to guide through the process. I can say just for me, I can only speak for myself as a survivor in the space helping other victims cross that threshold, working directly with that population. It’s very important to them to know that I do have a clue about what they might have experienced. I have a point of reference to understand what the level of hopelessness they have experienced in their lives and the level of pain and anger and all of these different mixed emotions. I have an understanding of that. And so there is a need for the skill of lived experience, but there’s also a need for the ally who comes in, who may not necessarily have those experiences, they may have just observed or just have a desire to help in this space. What’s necessary to have someone to have a viewpoint that’s not colored with the trauma because they’re able to give something different to the solution space. And so that’s as sensitive as I can explain it, but they both play a role and really need to work together. And it shouldn’t be like, I’m sorry, I might date myself. Move over bacon here. Something leaner.

Sandie [00:18:42] Oh, my gosh. I haven’t heard that in years.

Keeya [00:18:44] I’m dating myself. But, you know, it shouldn’t be that. It should be. Okay, we need everything on the plate.

Sandie [00:18:50] Oh, that’s so good. And and a phrase I’ve heard you use is redesigning life. So when you describe this partnership between allies and survivors, it makes me think of the design and building process. Lots of times people use terms like rehabilitation, which I do not like, but this idea of redesigning. You need construction workers, you need an architect, and there is a time element in a redesign that is not going to happen as we started in our conversation at the beginning in a 90 day program. So what do you see for your life moving forward and your goals?

Keeya [00:19:42] Absolutely. Well, in my redesign, it really has to do with my interpretation of healing. It has to do with my interpretation of helping. And so there are a lot of, I would say, radical acceptances along the way that I had to realize that I still have triggers. I work with the population that I consider my tribe, people who I’m only years ahead of them in the process. But we’ve been in the same trenches, with different experiences. And so redesign for me looks like, okay, therapy is going to be a part of my life just as much as my nail tech is. So let’s just get that settled. But it also looks like developing partnerships with other organizations and allies and survivors and communities who would like to see the same goal. They would like to see the ending of human trafficking and sex trafficking. And so it really takes partnership at this point. And so my redesign looks like a lot of partnership. Standing shoulder to shoulder, linked elbow to elbow, and across the globe. Looking for, searching for, researching, advocating for solutions.

Sandie [00:21:08] You are a part of that solution. And I want to be too. What are you doing right now in your own community?

Keeya [00:21:19] Yes. I’m glad that you asked. In my own community, I’m proud to work for an organization. Bochys.org. And they have so many things that they’re doing, but they have a safe house. And I get to work with my tribe. I get to work with victims and survivors and I get to lock arms with allies who have the same mindset. But in addition to that, because I do a lot more, I do facilitate workshops with organizations. At this point, it just became global when I got my invitation to go to Kenya. And in addition to that, I work with organizations formulating workshops, helping to sensitize allies to the plight of the survivor, and also doing trainings in schools and in various places. Anywhere that I have a platform at this point to point us towards solutions. We can bellyache over the problems. It’s overwhelming, but that’s not going to solve anything. And so, yes, it looks like that right now. And even this invitation to be here with your listeners, every opportunity I get, I want to be able to unify and advocate for and speak for the cause.

Sandie [00:22:42] Well, this conversation has been really helpful in sensitizing allies to the point of view of survivors. So you’re definitely accomplishing your goal. I’m also really interested in learning more from you. And so how would I find more information about Keeya Vawar?

Keeya [00:23:06] Well, it’s pretty easy. I’m in the social media streets. Okay. So, I’m on LinkedIn and Instagram primarily. I’m on Facebook as well. Twitter, I’m trying y’all. It’s a lot. I’m 47 years old, let’s just say that. And so, you know, it gets overwhelming. I just have to stick with one platform and then I can send that message to the rest. And that’s Instagram. But I’m @keeyasays, that’s on Instagram where I live. And then also I have a website which is www.keeyavawar.com that’s Keeya Vawar .com. That is where you can find me.

Sandie [00:23:53] All right, so she has info@keeyavawar.com to reach out to her. You can find her book on the website, and I’m going to go follow you on Instagram. I have so thoroughly enjoyed having this conversation and honestly, I feel like you have encouraged me and inspired me to do a better job of helping other allies join this cause in a way that is mutually respectful and with humility and as a true partner. I loved how you framed that as a marriage and we all need each other. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Keeya [00:24:49] Thank you, Dr. Sandie. It’s been an honor. I love what Global Center for Women and Justice is doing. And I’m a follower, fan and partner.

Sandie [00:24:59] All right.

Dave [00:25:00] Keeya, thank you so much for your time and sharing your story with us. We’re inviting you to take the first step along with us. Take a moment to hop online over at endinghumantrafficking.org. It will provide all the links, the resources we’ve mentioned in this episode, including all the links to Keeya’s ways to reach out. I hope you will take a moment to do that. Also on Endinghumantrafficking.org, you’ll see a opportunity to get a copy of Sandie’s guide, “The Five Things You Must Know: A Quick Start Guide to Ending Human Trafficking.” The guide will teach you the five critical things Sandie’s identified in her work that you should know before you join the fight against trafficking. You can get access to it again by going over to endinghumantrafficking.org, plus lots of other resources on the website. If you are taking a moment to go over there, you’ll see an opportunity to find out more about the Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate program. The next Ensure Justice conference coming up, March 3rd and 4th, 2023. And of course, an opportunity to get more connected with everything that’s going on here at the Global Center for Women in Justice. Take a moment to join us over there and send us a message if we can help. If today’s conversation has brought up questions for you, feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org is the very best way to reach us. Or again, just the endinghumantrafficking.org website. We will be back in two weeks with our next conversation. Sandie, always a pleasure. Take care.

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Sandie and Dave reflect on how far the movement has come since the Trafficking Victims Protection Act passed in October 2000, and was soon followed by the United Nations Palermo Protocol in December 2000. In 2023, we are positioned to move beyond awareness. Ending human trafficking requires everyone–educators, business leaders, social workers, attorney, nonprofits, and the church–to do more!Key Points1. Alert your community that January is National Slavery and Human Trafficking Awareness Month and bring visibility to the issue. 2. Listen to Survivors on the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. 3. Consume consciously and use the Sweat & Toil app to have age-appropriate conversations with your child. 4. Join the Ending Human Trafficking: Strategies for the Church Today book challenge: 1. Read the book in 31 days for the month of January. 2. Send the book to three people–a great Christmas gift!! (at ivpress.com use EHTlearn for 30% off + free shipping) 3. Start a book club to read and discuss together using our leader’s guide (coming soon). 5. Attend local Slavery & Human Trafficking Prevention Month events – check out GCWJ’s January events: 1. January 7 – Train the Trainer from 9 AM-12 PM 2. January 11 – Sextortion film screening from 6-8 PM 3. January 28 – Smart Families, Safe Kids from 11 AM – 2PM 6. Join the Ending Human Trafficking podcast challenge using the 31 Day Podcast Challenge Toolkit (coming soon).

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. You hear us say that at the beginning of every episode, and we do invite you every time to start by studying the issues, and we often have that invitation at the end of our conversations. For those who haven’t already, go to endinghumantrafficking.org to download Sandie’s guide as a starting point. And yet there is so much that you can do, regardless of how much you have listened to us or what your level of expertise is, or perhaps you’re just picking this up for the very first time. The mission of the Global Center for Women and Justice is to take action and to move beyond just awareness and to actually take action in order to have some wonderful things begin to move forward. And you can, regardless if you’ve been thinking and contributing for a decade, or perhaps you’ve just downloaded this episode for the first time today. There are many things you can do that go beyond awareness and that you can take action on right now. Today we’re going to look at six. We’re often asked, Sandie and I, what can I do to move forward? In addition to listening to the show, in addition to going on the website, what can I do to move forward? And we’ve got six key things for you. Things that are very timely in the next couple of months that will help you to move forward and to take action to go beyond awareness. Sandie, I’m so glad we get to have this conversation because there’s a lot happening, isn’t there?

Sandie [00:02:13] Oh, my goodness. There really is. And when I think back to 2011, when you invited me to start this podcast, I had no idea we would still be doing it 11 years later at my desk. But the Trafficking Victims Protection Act was passed in October 2000 and shortly after the United Nations passed the Palermo Protocol. And now we’re going to be in 2023, and we are positioned to move way beyond just knowing about it, beyond just being aware. I keep telling people, don’t invite me to speak at an awareness event. I won’t do it because we are way beyond awareness. We need our whole community, teachers and preachers and business leaders, social workers, attorneys and judges. Every single part of society has a place at the table: government and technology, education and religion, business and nonprofits. And I’m using like generalized place at the table. But Dave, I still love the image of the pithari. That great big jug with handles baked into it all over so everybody can find a place to do something.

Dave [00:03:41] Indeed. And as we’re looking at these six areas today, we’d invite you to be thinking not all of them, but one of them. What’s your handle? What’s the one of these six that you might say, Hey, I’m ready to do that, to go beyond just awareness and to take on that handle and to lean in a bit. So, let’s look at our six resources and strategies that we can utilize to move forward, Sandie. Let’s start with the first one here.

Sandie [00:04:08] Well, the first one is to begin to alert your community now that January is National Slavery and Human Trafficking Prevention Month. Now that’s here in the United States. But internationally, many countries have a focus day or a week or even a month. And if your country doesn’t, because I love it that we have listeners in 148 countries, Dave. So, if you don’t have one, you can join us in July for the United Nations World Day Against Trafficking in Persons. Start there because it gives you an opening point, a response point, right in your community that is timely and leverages the visibility from press releases from task forces and the White House, federal organizations, state, local. We can all begin to increase our volume all at the same time.

Dave [00:05:17] And we’ll have one of our later items on the strategies, on the sixes, some specific things you may jump in on. But, you know, Sandie is just starting with the awareness first of making the invitation to others to know that this is happening and wherever you are locally, to begin to raise your awareness on what’s happening within your local community, organization, or country.

Sandie [00:05:40] So step one is plan now to be part of the national focus on prevention. And another good strategy is to use our Ending Human Trafficking podcast survivor tool kit. There is a lot of conversation and appreciation for survivor-informed and survivor led. So I want to challenge you to go to the survivor tool kit. If you’re an over achiever like me, you’re going to listen to all 11 or 12 survivor voices in that tool kit, episodes we’ve done with survivors. Or you may want to dial it back a little bit and choose a survivor voice to listen to each week. But either way, begin to intentionally listen to survivors. Do this on your commute or when you’re doing your walk around the block or your run around the track.

Dave [00:06:47] Indeed, this is our second strategy to choose a survivor voice a week or two. Grab that survivor toolkit. We’ve had many voices over the years from survivors here on the podcast. We have one coming up again in our next episode. Sandie, for those who would like to grab that survivor toolkit, what’s the best way to get access to it?

Sandie [00:07:10] You need to come to endinghumantrafficking.org and look under resources where you’ll see the survivor toolkit and you can download the whole thing or you can just do one at a time.

Dave [00:07:26] Perfect. So we’ll have that on the website, as always. A great starting point for you on utilizing the resources we already have here on the website and of course within the podcast. Speaking of practical strategies, number three is one of my favorite because it’s so useful and so practical in so many ways for something we’re all doing: shopping.

Sandie [00:07:46] That’s right. And it’s a way to involve your kids. You don’t want to give your kids the survivor stories to listen to, Dave.

Dave [00:07:53] Yeah, exactly. But the Sweat and Toil app is a wonderful starting point for age appropriate conversations. We’ve talked about it on the show before, but for those who haven’t heard it, Sandie, what is it and what’s the value in thinking about it from a standpoint of trafficking?

Sandie [00:08:10] It’s an app you on your phone or any kind of device that uses Android or Apple apps where you can actually look at the products that you’re purchasing that seem just normal products, but find the hidden human trafficking, labor trafficking that might be evident in that product. And it’s based on more than a thousand pages of research. It gets updated regularly and we’re able to determine if the chocolate that you’re eating is tainted by child labor. And I was recently in a training where former Ambassador John Cotton Richmond cited evidence that 80% of the chocolate we eat has child labor in it. I don’t want that chocolate. And Sweat and Toil app will help me identify when the supply chains have been carefully vetted. And I can share this with the kids in my life and begin to start teaching them and encouraging their empathy for those in other spaces, other countries, other continents that are vulnerable to being exploited in human trafficking.

Dave [00:09:40] I always use the app when I’m in the produce section and I’ve learned to check buying blueberries because there’s, I can’t remember exactly where, there’s one or two places that if the blueberries came from this country of origin, that there’s a concern. And I always make sure to check it, because you can tell right on the label where did the produce come from? And I make a choice based on that app. And as we’ve talked about before, there’s maybe not as a starting point, but there’s also an opportunity to potentially if you see the kind of products in the store that you frequent and the people who are running that store, that organization, there’s also opportunities for conversations to start prompting some of the what are you carrying? What made you think differently as far as your supply chain, just based on what you’re seeing on store shelves? That’s a more of an advanced thing, but it’s an opportunity to really go beyond just awareness and make a difference in a way that is accessible for so many of us.

Sandie [00:10:34] You’re being a voice, Dave. The next thing on our list is the most exciting for me.

Dave [00:10:41] Indeed. Number four. Yeah.

Sandie [00:10:43] So you all know that my friends Shayne Moore and Kim Yim and I released a book called Ending Human Trafficking: Strategies for the Church Today. We did that in April. We are back with the Ending Human Trafficking book challenge. And there are three ways to participate in the challenge. And we want your feedback. We want you to tell us how it goes. We want to know how many people you recruited to join you. And then when we hear back from you on feedback at endinghumantrafficking.org, we’ll report back in in February. So here’s the three challenges. First of all, the first one is read the book in 31 days. So we’re linking this to January, National Slavery and Human Trafficking Prevention Month. You’ve got 31 days to read the book. The second challenge is send the book to three people. And actually, that’s going to be a great Christmas gift. And I this morning talked to our publishers at InterVarsity Press and they have given us a discount link effective from December 12th, 2022 to January 31st, 2023. And that code is EHTlearn. So when you go to IVPress.com, you’ll get 30% off plus free shipping on the paperback book. That’s a great gift idea.

Dave [00:12:33] And it’s such a great starting point from beginning to end, although there’s never truly an end of course, Sandie. So many of the things that are in the book, of course we have talked about on the podcast over the years, but we’ve talked about them in different times, in a different order on the podcast. The book is a very great starting point for beginning to end. What are the key things I need to know? And particularly as you invited us, Sandie, if you’re getting together others who also share the heart you have for this and want to learn more. What a great starting point for a group or with a partner to begin to go through the process of learning together and then deciding what’s our piece, what’s our handle to take on more. And that is a wonderful starting point for again, going beyond awareness of starting to study the issues, be a voice, and ultimately helping us to end human trafficking.

Sandie [00:13:28] And that is the third way you can participate in the book challenge. We want you to put together a group, read together, discuss. We’re putting out a leaders guide. It’s not lengthy, it’ll be short. And you can arrange to do it once a week. Or you can do pattern where a couple of people have already started this, where they do a chapter a week and there are eight chapters. You can do it online or in person. We just want to know how that goes. And there is so much power in doing things together, collaboration. And so we will want to follow what happens with your group as you join together to read Ending Human Trafficking.

Dave [00:14:22] So all of that is under number four, the Ending Human Trafficking book challenge. So we’ll have all this linked up, of course, in the episode notes, and that leads us to the fifth of the sixth, Sandie. And this comes back to what we talked about earlier of the prevention month events that are upcoming. And as you mentioned, we do have listeners all over the world and I know that we have many listeners here on the West Coast of the States. And so there are a bunch of events that if you happen to be here or if you happen to be traveling in this area in the next month or two, that are coming up locally that the Global Center for Women and Justice is involved with.

Sandie [00:15:02] And this can kind of be a springboard for you to think about what you can do locally if you aren’t nearby. We’re going to start January with a Saturday morning, January 7th, train the trainer with the facilitators guide and everything for Ending Human Trafficking for the book. And it’ll be here at Vanguard from 9 AM to noon on January 7th. Then on January 11th, which is a single awareness day recognized nationally. And so we’re going to be screening a new documentary produced with Homeland Security Case Study and National Center for Missing and Exploited Children called “Sextortion.” We’ll be screening that here in Orange County at Vanguard. At the same time, it’s being screened at the Pentagon January 11th. You can find the information in our show notes. On January 18th, you know we’re big proponents of collaboration. We don’t have to do all of it right here at Vanguard. We’re joining our Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force at Cal State Fullerton. And with that, our Live2Free students will be on hand working with youth from middle school to high school, and that’s January 18th. And then we’re not just staying home, we’re going up. My coauthor, Kim Yim and I, to the Bay Area in partnership with BAATC, Bay Area Anti-Trafficking Coalition. And we’re going to be leading two very unique events that are being piloted in January. One is with a group of generous and hungry faith-based donors who want to learn and want to financially support and help strengthen local and global anti-trafficking efforts with a more savvy framework. They want to understand where great work is being done, and they want to be able to call out smoke and mirrors. The idea that there are sometimes organizations that raise a lot of money and have a great website, but you can’t really figure out what is being done that is lasting, accountable. How do we evaluate? And that’s going to be part of that project up in the Bay Area, San Francisco, still the West Coast. And then finally, January 28, the last Saturday of the month, we are hosting at Vanguard Smart Families, Safe Kids, 11 to 2 PM. The link will be in the show notes. Our goal is to equip families, moms, dads, grandparents, uncles on how they can make sure the kids in their community are safe. Much of the resources at that particular event are being uploaded to our Web site, so you’ll be able to see versions of the content for the parents as well.

Dave [00:18:36] I love your invitation too. If you’re not local, not going to be on the West Coast of the states, that this may be a inspiration, a starting point for you if thinking about what would be the kinds of things you’d be doing during awareness month, the activities, wherever you are locally. And you may start with something like a screening of a documentary, a movie or a starting point, or getting the book and having an event around that. Any one of these could be a starting point if there are not currently events happening around you. And of course, we’re going to have these all on the website, endinghumantrafficking.org. And speaking of the website, that’s actually a great starting point as well for the sixth resource, which is the Podcast Challenge Toolkit. This is exciting, Sandie.

Sandie [00:19:22] So, Dave, you’re going to love the 31 day challenge tool kit. Many of our listeners have already read the book. They are avid followers of the podcast. And now here’s an opportunity to invite your friends to join you in a podcast challenge. 31 days of podcasts. There is a toolkit called 31 Day Podcast Challenge in our show notes and in our resources so that you will be able to introduce your friends to 31 days of podcasts that will help them be equipped right now to move beyond awareness to action.

Dave [00:20:14] All of this you can find at endinghumantrafficking.org and our invitation to, as always, is just to start. Don’t try to do all six of these. Choose one. What’s the handle that feels right to you right now? Maybe it is downloading the Sweat and Toil app. What a great place to start. Take it on your next shopping trip with you. Use it with your kids or other people that you’re shopping with as a learning tool for awareness about what’s happening. Maybe it’s grabbing the book and reading it yourself or maybe connecting with others. Maybe it’s joining us at one of the events live or downloading the toolkit. But pick one that’s right for you. And if you do that, it gets you moving on beyond just awareness, of course, but actually really taking action for yourself, for your community, and helping support the good work that we’re all trying to do to end human trafficking through the Global Center for Women and Justice.

Sandie [00:21:10] I’m especially encouraging people not to do this alone. We say this all the time in fighting human trafficking. Don’t go it alone. Find somebody else. Invite somebody else into your space to join you in this challenge. Every time I start a January New Year’s resolution, Dave, I need to be accountable to somebody else. Or I’m going to say, well, I don’t think I really meant that. So find somebody else. The benefit of that is you’ll bring new talent, new energy, new passion for ending human trafficking in our lifetime.

Dave [00:21:54] And so much of this is about partnership as we talk about so often on the show, right, Sandie. The partnership starts with each one of us of finding the partners, our friends, our family, the people who care about this, our organizations, our faith based communities. There’s partnership opportunities everywhere. It doesn’t need to be two large organizations coming together. It begins with just a single conversation, a single relationship, two people reading a book together. That’s our invitation for you to start. And if you do that, what a wonderful starting point going into the new year that supports all of us in ending human trafficking. Sandie this is normally the part of the show where I have resources for everyone, but boy, we’ve covered a lot of resources already. So I’ll just simply say the starting point for you is to go over to endinghumantrafficking.org, find the episode notes for this episode, episode 288, and you’ll see everything detailed there. And we’d love to hear what you decide to do. If you take a moment to drop us a line and share with us what you are doing, where you began. We’d love to know. Feedback at endinghumantrafficking.org is the very best way to get that message to us. And Sandie and I are wishing you well as you get started on taking action here in these next few weeks.

Sandie [00:23:06] We can’t wait to hear from you.

Dave [00:23:09] And Sandie, we, of course, will be back again in two weeks for many more conversations. Survivor voice coming up in our next episode again and we’ll be into 2023 with new episodes. Have a great day, everyone, and we’ll see you back in two weeks. Take care.

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Samantha MillerSamantha Miller is the founder of Voices Heard LLC, and serves as a consultant on child safety and restorative justice. She conducts training and inquiries into allegations of current and historic child abuse, primarily within the Christian missionary context. Samantha is trained as a child forensic interviewer and spent years as a federal investigator in the United States. Samantha has a master’s degree in Intercultural Studies from Wheaton College in Illinois, where she focused her thesis on restorative justice and human trafficking. She currently volunteers as a facilitator for her city’s restorative justice program and previously volunteered as a member of Circles of Support and Accountability (COSA) in Denver, Colorado, where she joined a circle of other volunteers to provide pro-social support and accountability to persons convicted of sex offenses after they were released from prison. Samantha is passionate about keeping the demand side of the human trafficking issue at the forefront of the discussion about how to best pursue justice and restoration. She lives in Colorado with her husband and children. She can be contacted via email at Samantha@VoicesHeard.co

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Jeni Sorensen Jeni Sorensen is a human trafficking specialist with 20 years of experience designing, managing, and evaluating programs to combat human trafficking in the U.S. and around the world. Ms. Sorensen currently serves as Director of International Poverty Action’s Human Trafficking Research Initiative, which fosters partnerships between researchers and program implementers to build and carry out rigorous research studies. Previously, Ms. Sorensen served as Director of Winrock International’s Human Trafficking and Safe Migration programs, where she oversaw a $70 million portfolio of counter-trafficking programs in Asia and Latin America. Ms. Sorensen holds a BA from the University of Texas at Austin and an MPP from Georgetown University. Key Points

To measure prevention impact, a theory of change and measurement of success should be identified beforehand. To measure trainings, identify the goal of the trainings, randomize your audience, and take a pre-test and post-test. Qualitative and quantitative data is important to humanize stories and this issue and to determine the efficiency of programs, respectively. When gathering data, be sure to only collect data on indicators you actually have time to analyze.

Resources

IPA’s Human Trafficking Research Initiative CART Principles The Goldilocks Challenge: Right-Fit Evidence for the Social Sector by Mary Kay Gugerty and Dean Karlan 2022 Global Estimates of Modern Slavery: Forced Labour and Forced Marriage Report 2022 Trafficking in Persons Report | U.S. Department of State Seafood Watch | Monterrey Bay Aquarium Sweat & Toil (mobile phone app) | U.S. Department of Labor Ep. 243 - Ethical Story Telling in Prevention

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Sandie and Stacy Deeble-Reynolds discuss FOCUS, a program designed to intervene when youth experience a traumatic event and provide guardrails, support, care, and a safe environment at an early stage when need is most critical. They reflect on similar programs in other states and how someone can bring FOCUS to their community.

Stacy Deeble-Reynolds Stacy Deeble-Reynolds serves as the Director of the Student Achievement and Wellness unit at the Orange County Department of Education. Stacy has over 20 years of experience working with students, parents, educators and community stakeholders in Sacramento, Orange County, and throughout the state of California. She currently serves in various leadership capacities among Orange County work groups focused on student mental health and wellness, family engagement, prevention, and positive youth development. Stacy holds a bachelors degree from UC Irvine, and a Masters degree from CSU Long Beach. Key Points

FOCUS is designed to provide support for children who have experienced violence or trauma through collaboration between first responders, schools, and community resources. OCDE's program was inspired and developed by West Virginia's Handle with Care and Stanislaus, California's FOCUS program. Trainings to law enforcement and schools are designed to be accessible and flexible to maximize trainings. Interested school superintendents, police departments, and community leaders can contact Stacy to bring FOCUS to their schools.

Resources

OCDE Focusing on Children Under Stress FOCUS | How it Works & Notification Flowchart FOCUS Plenary | Ensure Justice Conference 2022 Handle with Care West Virginia Ep. 168 - Drug Endangered Children: Handle with Care Stanislaus FOCUS Program ACEs Aware Grant Save the Date! Ensure Justice 2023: Finding A Way Home

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 285, Focus on Children Under Stress, with Stacy Deeble-Reynolds.

Production Credits [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, you were just telling me before we started our conversation today that you have known today's guests for a long time. I'm so glad to meet her and to welcome her to the show. Stacy Debble-Reynolds is our guest today. Stacy serves as the Director of the Student Achievement and Wellness Unit at the Orange County Department of Education. She has over 20 years experience working with students, parents, educators and community stakeholders in Sacramento, Orange County and throughout the state of California. She currently serves in various leadership capacities among Orange County workgroups, focused on student mental health and wellness, family engagement, prevention and positive youth development. She holds a bachelor's degree from UC Irvine and a master's degree from Cal State University of Long Beach. Stacy, what a pleasure to have you with us.

Stacy [00:01:34] Thanks so much, Dave.

Sandie [00:01:36] I'm very excited. We just finished Priceless a few weeks ago and your new program, FOCUS, received one of our Diamond Awards. And the thing to know about our Diamond Awards is they're not just glitzy. Those awards are models of replicatable programs that people anywhere can learn how to do and make available in their own communities that contribute to healthy communities that are resilient and reduce exploitation and even hum...

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Sandie is joined by Steve Kim, Executive Director and Co-Founder of Project Kinship, an organization that provides services, healing, and hope to individuals who have been affected by incarceration, gangs, or violence. Steve Kim discusses what is restorative justice and their work in the Orange County collaborative courts.

Steve Kim Steven Kim is the Co-Founder of Project Kinship where he serves individuals impacted by gangs and incarceration, with the aim to successfully re-integrate them back into the workforce, schools, and community. His dedication to breaking cycles of incarceration, gang membership, and community violence stems from over 15 years of working with traumatized and abandoned youth throughout Orange County. Key Points

Multiple marginalization occurs when a person is marginalized in multiple aspects of their life, from resources, employment, housing, and so forth. A felony conviction can lead to potentially over 46,000 collateral consequences on someone's life. Restorative justice addresses harm through restoration of broken relationships and accountability. Collaboration between the Orange County Collaborative Court, Project Kinship, probation, and the district attorney's office has seen success in providing healing, resources, and reintegration to young adults. Serving versus saving: If we try to save people, we will burn out. But if we serve people, we walk into each day renewed and have the opportunity to be served in return.

Resources

Project Kinship Ensure Justice 2021 - Healing the Cycle of Incarceration (Panel) Ensure Justice 2021 - Restorative Justice (Workshop) Homeboy Industries Ep. 283 - Why A Special Court for CSEC Victims, with Judge Joanne Motoike Live2free Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate Program

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 284 Restorative Justice, with Steve Kim and Project Kinship.

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today, we're so glad to welcome the executive director and co-founder of Project Kinship, Steve Kim. Steve is the co-founder of Project Kinship, where he serves individuals impacted by gangs and incarceration with the aim to successfully reintegrate them back into the workforce, schools and community. His dedication to breaking cycles of incarceration, gang membership and community violence stems from over 15 years of working with traumatized and abandoned youth throughout Orange County. Steve, welcome to the podcast.

Steve [00:01:17] Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Sandie [00:01:19] I saw Steve really recently at our Priceless annual event where he accepted the Outstanding Nonprofit Diamond Award for Project Kinship. And our Diamond Awards are not just about we want to give somebody an award, but we want our community to see people doing this work well. And Project Kinship has done such an excellent job. We've been partners with our Live2Free student. They are part of our community. Steve often speaks at Ensure Justice and we'll put some links in case you want to hear more from him in the show notes. But we especially value the achievements of Project Kinship in our schools and in our community. And I want to start our conversation with a quote from you, Steve. You said about Project Kinship, "the heartbeat of Project Kinship holds compassion and inclusion.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by the Honorable Judge Joanne Motoike to discuss GRACE Court, a collaborative court designed to provide services to CSEC victims and rehabilitate them to be reintegrated back into the community. Honorable Joanne Motoike The Honorable Joanne Motoike serves as an associate justice of the 4th District Court of Appeal, Division 3. Previously, she was the Presiding Judge of the Juvenile Court in Orange County, California where she also oversaw a unique collaborative court for child victims of commercial sexual exploitation called GRACE Court. She has also served as a senior deputy public defender at the Orange County Public Defender’s Office, and as a trial attorney in the Office of the Prosecutor at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia at the Hague. Key Points

GRACE (Generating Resources to Abolish Child Exploitation) Court was developed to provide youth and families with services as they went through the legal process in their cases. Juvenile Court is done with the mindset of rehabilitation of the youth coming through the court system to reduce the recidivism rates of that population. In comparison, Criminal Court is designed to punish in order to deter further conduct. GRACE Court is a speciality collaborative court to address the specific needs of CSEC victims. To start a collaborative CSEC court, start with contacting law enforcement and other key stakeholders that will play a significant role in providing services to potential victims.

Resources

EP. 112 – Juvenile Justice Inspiring Hope: An Interview with Hon. Maria Hernandez Orange County, California Collaborative Courts

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 283, Why A Special Court for CSEC Victims, with Judge Joanne Motoike.

Production Credits [00:00:12] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, today a wonderful partner with us to really help us to understand more on the legal side of our work. And of course, so much of our work here at the Global Center for Women and Justice is about building partnerships across the legal community, law enforcement, government, so many wonderful experts that we've been able to talk with. And today, an expert that will help us to really get even more perspective on what happens inside the courtrooms. I'm so glad to welcome the Honorable Joanne Motoike. She serves as an associate justice of the Fourth District Court of Appeals Division Three. Previously, she was the presiding judge of the Juvenile Court in Orange County, California, where she also oversaw a unique collaborative court for child victims of commercial sexual exploitation called the GRACE Court. She has also served as a senior deputy public defender at the Orange County Public Defender's Office and as a trial attorney in the office of the Prosecutor at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia at The Hague. Judge Motoike, welcome to our show today.

Joanne [00:01:56] Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Sandie [00:01:59] I'm excited about this conversation. First of all, congratulations on your appointment as an associate judge of the Fourth District Court of Appeal. That's so impressive. And I just love what I know you'll be able to accomplish in this new role. But today we're going to talk about your experience as presiding judge in juvenile court in Oran...

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Resources

EP. 112 – Juvenile Justice Inspiring Hope: An Interview with Hon. Maria Hernandez Orange County, California Collaborative Courts

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 283, Why A Special Court for CSEC Victims, with Judge Joanne Motoike.

Production Credits [00:00:12] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Joanne [00:01:56] Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

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Sandie Morgan and Ioana Bauer, with eLiberare in Romania, discuss a crisis prevention model in response to the Ukrainian refugee crisis. They discuss when to prepare for a crisis and four critical components to a safe and sustainable model to address a refugee trafficking crisis.

Ioana Bauer Ioana Bauer has been active in the area of protecting human rights and dignity since 2005, and, since 2010, she has dedicated her efforts to addressing human trafficking by leading and shaping prevention activities, developing materials on the issue and conducting capacity building activities. Ioana has worked directly with survivors of human trafficking and she is passionate about fighting injustice, being a firm believer in the power of community and collective action. Ioana is an Ashoka Fellow, a 2020 Resilience Fellow with GITOC, and is recognized as one of the women leaders advancing the UN SDGs globally. Currently, Ioana is serving as president of the board of eLiberare, a leading Romanian anti-trafficking CSO, after finishing her term as policy adviser in the office of the Prime Minister in the Romanian Government, where she led the working group on child safety. Key Points

It is important to always prepare for a crisis intervention, never react. Organizations should always remember their mission and who they are, instead of trying to be everything during a crisis. eLiberare developed the Kompass Model, a strategy to create barriers against trafficking for refugees and displaced people in response to the Ukrainian crisis. 4 Components of the Kompass Model:

1) Raised awareness about safety measures for Ukrainian refugees 2) Conducted capacity building for new stakeholders responding to the crises and for Ukrainian refugees to navigate the road ahead 3) Developed individual safety plans for individuals vulnerable to being trafficked 4) Provide and coordinator short-term and long-term assistance

Resources

eLiberare Response Model of Intervention in the Ukrainian Crisis | Kompass Model 6 Months Report (March - August 2022) | Kompass Model

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 282. Crisis Prevention of Ukraine Refugee Trafficking, with Ioana Bauer.

Production Credits [00:00:12] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:32] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, of course, Ukraine has been so much in the news over this last year and as we know, so many of the challenges the human suffering that we see in the news relates directly back, unfortunately, to the things that we see in trafficking. Today, we're going to take a look at this in detail with someone who's such an expert in this work and is on the ground doing incredible work to serve people. I'm so glad to welcome Ioana Bauer. She has been active in the area of protecting human rights and dignity since 2005. And since 2010, she has dedicated her efforts to addressing human trafficking by leading and shaping prevention activities, developing materials on the issue, and conducting capacity building activities. Ioana has worked directly with survivors of human trafficking and she is passionate about fighting injustice, being a firm believer in the power of community and collective action. Ioana is an Ashoka Fellow, a 2020 Resilience Fellow with GITOC, and is recognized as one of the women leaders advancing the UN's Sustainable Development Goals globally. Currently,

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Sandie is joined by Jeremy Vallerand, CEO and President of Atlas Free. Formerly Rescue Freedom International, Atlas Free is leading the charge to discover, connect, and grow the global network of anti-human trafficking organizations. Jeremy Vallerand Jeremy Vallerand is the CEO & President of Atlas Free, a global non-profit organization working in over 20 countries to prevent, combat, and end sex trafficking and exploitation. His Tedx Talk - “Using Your Passions to Fight Injustice” - encourages people to leverage their own skills and passions to improve the world around them. He has an undergraduate degree in Business from Trinity Western University in British Columbia, Canada and a graduate degree in Diplomacy from Oxford University in the UK. Jeremy lives in Seattle, WA with his wife, Maren, and their three children. Key Points

Atlas Free started with the idea to vet and connect international organizations combatting human trafficking with U.S. communities and supporters, and vice versa. "Rescue" does not capture the work and role that survivors play in their own recovery from human trafficking. Atlas Free looks as being "heroic" as sacrificing your time and resources to give agency back to those being served. Atlas Free's (formerly Rescue Freedom International) vision is to rebrand their organization to recognize the need for a global atlas, a global network, to address human trafficking.

Resources

Atlas Free

Using your passions to fight injustice | Jeremy Vallerand | TEDxKirkland

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Transcript

Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 281, Why Change Your Name, with Jeremy Vallerand.

Production Credits [00:00:08] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:28] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:33] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:36] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, I'm so glad for us to welcome today another guest expert who's going to help us to really expand our horizons and to challenge us in some new ways as well. Jeremy Vallerand is the CEO and president of Atlas Free, a global nonprofit organization working in over 20 countries to prevent combat and sex trafficking and exploitation. His TEDx Talk, "Using Your Passions to Fight Injustice," encourages people to leverage their own skills and passions to improve the world around them. He has an undergraduate degree in business from Trinity Western University in British Columbia and a graduate degree in diplomacy from Oxford University. Jeremy lives in Seattle with his wife Marin and their three children. Jeremy, welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast.

Jeremy [00:01:32] Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Sandie [00:01:34] And Jeremy, you and I have known each other for so many years. I think the first friend that we had in common was Dick Foth, who as a child, I grew up in the shadow of his leadership and have always admired him as a mentor.

Jeremy [00:01:52] Yeah, yeah. He's one of my favorite human beings. And he was also the founding board chair of Atlas Free, so.

Sandie [00:01:58] Oh, well, that's exciting. Well, let's jump into this. So first of all, just a little bit about your background. How did you get involved in the whole anti-human trafficking movement? It doesn't sound like that is something that would have come about in your normal everyday business agenda.

Jeremy [00:02:23] Yeah. So, as you kind of hinted at I was on kind of the business trajectory, I sort of assumed that that was where I was going ...

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World Day Against Trafficking in Persons is recognized to stress the harms of human trafficking women, men, and children around the world experience. Efforts to address these crimes are strengthened through survivor leadership, research and education, and building resilient communities.

In the recent release of the 2022 Trafficking in Persons (TIP) Report from the U.S. Department of States Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons, 21 countries were upgraded a tier because of their increasing work to address human trafficking in their countries--a victory worth celebrating this World Day Against Trafficking in Persons!

This year, we are highlighting the supply and demand of the market that drives labor trafficking and how businesses and corporations can combat human trafficking by analyzing their supply chains, implementing ethical labor practices, and building sustainable avenues of income and resources for employees. Highlighted Episodes:

280 – Shifting the Supply Chain Burden, with Justin Dillon 269 – Empowering Businesses to Create a Slave Free World, with Matt Friedman 267 – The Intersection of Business and Human Rights, with John Cotton Richmond 266 – Rescuing Boys Labor Trafficked in the Fishing Industry, with Chris Field 247 – Perspectives on Transformation in Labor Trafficking, with Ben Skinner 244 - The Role of Customs and Border Protection in Disrupting Supply Chain 209 - Who's Watching the Watchdog? Is Supply Chain Transparency Working? 195 - The Sydney Framework: Supply Chains and Sustainable Development Goal 8.7 162 - Starfish Business Model for Serving Survivors, with Jenny McGee 17 - California Transparency in Supply Chains Act 10 - How a Small Business Can Help End Human Trafficking

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Transcript Sandie [00:00:14] Greetings to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast community of listeners. It is World Day Against Trafficking in Persons and our podcast has listeners in 148 countries. This is an important day for us. It's just me, Sandie Morgan, today to let you know that I'm taking a few weeks off in August, so Dave and I will return to our regular schedule on August 29th.

In the meantime, let's celebrate the United Nations annual observance by joining forces with our movement's global partners as we study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Our latest episode, Shifting the Supply Chain Burden, with Justin Dillon, took a deep dive on some of the legislation that has been passed most recently, especially the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act. It's a big step forward in our movement, but we've been looking at this issue for more than a decade on our podcast. So during this short break, we've put together a decade of ten episodes around the role of business in ending human trafficking. Just go to the website www.endinghumantrafficking.org and click on the link to browse these recommendations.

You can start most recently with Episode 269, when Matt Friedman suggested how we can empower businesses to create a slave free world. And of course, one of our frequent podcast guests and former Ambassador John Cotton Richmond joined us for episode 267, The Intersection of Business and Human Rights. In Episode 266, we went to Ghana with Chris Field rescuing boys labor trafficked in the fishing industry. And back on episode 247, Ben Skinner gave us the high level look from a corporate change viewpoint in fast fashion on perspectives on transformation in labor trafficking. We brought Deputy Executive Assistant Commissioner Cynthia Wittenberg on the podcast to talk to us about the role of Customs and Border Protection in disrupting supply chain forced labor. And back on 209,

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Sandie is joined by Justin Dillon to discuss new legislation that will address known forced labor in supply chains. They look at how companies can become aware and map their supply chain, various tools available on the market, and the need for a balance between educating and incentivizing corporations. Justin Dillon Justin is an entrepreneur, author, and artist. He founded the enterprise software company FRDM, with a mission of changing the world through the power of our purchases. FRDM is a business platform used by Fortune 500 companies to measure and mitigate risk of forced labor in supply chains. Justin is also the Founder and CEO of Made In A Free World, a non-profit organization dedicated to ending forced labor, human trafficking, and modern-day slavery through increased public awareness, action and advocacy. He is author of A Selfish Plan to Change the World (2017) which reveals the secret to a life of deep and lasting significance: the discovery that our need for meaning is inextricably linked to the needs of the world. Justin made his directorial debut in the film Call + Response, which revealed the world’s 27 million dirtiest secrets: there are more slaves today than ever before in human history. The “rockumentary” was theatrically released around the world and became one of the top documentaries of 2008. Justin founded the nonprofit organization Slavery Footprint. Partnering with the U.S. State Department and Google, they launched a multiple-award-winning website that asks the question, “How Many Slaves Work For You?” The website and mobile app allow consumers to visualize how their consumption habits are connected to modern-day slavery. Justin has worked in technology and human rights for ten years, advising the United Nations, White House, and several Fortune 100 companies on supply chain transparency and the purpose economy. Key Points

People want to do good with lives, so for advocates, its about how to get more people involved and aware. Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act (UFLPA) "imposes various restrictions related to China's Xinjiang Uyghur region, including by prohibiting certain imports from Xinjiang and imposing sanctions on those responsible for human rights violations there." Transparency in supply chains can solves problems, other than forced labor, such as environmental climate change problems and operational problems. The Forced Labor Enforcement Task Force (FLETF) will implement a cycle of monitoring and evaluating work being done by corporations to adapt to the UFLPA bill. It is important that buyer work with their suppliers to improve their supply chain and create incentives for supplies to be transparent. As a movement, remember to celebrate the wins.

Resources

California Transparency in Supply Chains Act, 2010 EP. 17 - California Transparency in Supply Chains Act EP. 209 – Is Supply Chain Transparency Working? with Ben Greer EP. 195 – The Sydney Framework: Supply Chains and Sustainable Development Goal 8.7, with John McCarthy EP. 267 – The Intersection of Business and Human Rights, with John Cotton Richmond EP. 269 – Empowering Businesses to Create a Slave Free World, with Matt Friedman EP. 247 – Perspectives on Transformation in Labor Trafficking, with Ben Skinner Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act (UFLPA)

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 280, Shifting the Supply Chain Burden, with Justin Dillon.

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

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Sandie is joined by Kendra Tankersley-Davis to discuss the characteristics and signs of youth who are identified as being commercially sexually exploited. Sandie and Kendra provide statistics on what CSEC looks like in Orange County, risk factors for caregivers to look out for, and tips for individuals interested in becoming a foster/resource parent. Kendra Tankersley-Davis

Kendra has worked with at-risk children and families, who are involved in the child welfare, probation, or mental health systems due to complex trauma, for over sixteen years. She has worked in Human Trafficking supporting survivors in transitioning out of the life, educating communities, teaching preventative methods, and providing advocacy for over fifteen years. Kendra has a Bachelors Degree in Criminal Justice and a Master’s Degree in Family and Human Development; she is currently The Vice President of External Affairs at Crittenton Services for Children and Families. Key Points

For youth who experience trauma, often their development can stop or be hindered at that age of experience. 80% of the CSEC (commercially sexually exploited children) who were identified in Orange County were from Orange County The biggest risk factor for exploitation is prior abuse and neglect. Training to recognize the signs of possible exploitation and/or abuse for anyone interacting with youth is important to take action and prevent further harm.

Resources

Crittenton Services for Family and Children Smart Mamas, Safe Kids - OC Parent Anti-Human Trafficking Training EP. 278 - Identifying and Interacting with Minor Victims of Human Trafficking, with Dr. Jodi Quas

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 279, Who Are the Kids Being Trafficked, with Kendra Tankersley-Davis.

Production Credits [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, today we are turning our attention of our conversation towards kids. The most important people, perhaps in this conversation. One of the reasons we continue to come back to the topic of children in our conversation about ending human trafficking. Today, an expert with us who's going to help us to really understand this population better and some of the implications that we can all learn from. I'm so pleased to welcome Kendra Tankersley-Davis. She is an adjunct professor for the Global Center for Women and Justice here at Vanguard University. Kendra has worked with at-risk children and families who are involved in the child welfare probation or mental health systems due to complex trauma. And she's been doing the work for over 16 years. She has worked in human trafficking, supporting survivors and transitioning out of the life, educating communities, teaching preventative methods, and providing advocacy for over 15 years. Kendra has a bachelor's degree in criminal justice and a master's degree in Family and Human Development. She's currently the Vice President of External Affairs at Crittenton Services for Children and Families. Kendra, what a pleasure to have you with us.

Kendra [00:01:53] Thank you so much. I'm very excited to be here. I listen to the podcast pretty much weekly, so I'm excited to be a guest. Thank you so much.

Sandie [00:02:02] I'm really happy to have you, Kendra. And we just got to have a whole week together last month with our faculty student trip to Navajo Nation,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Dr. Jodi Quas to discuss new research on forensic interviews for minor victims of human trafficking. They review what the research is saying, strategies to work with minors, and how this research is being disseminated for implementation. Dr. Jodi Quas Jodi Quas, Ph.D., is Professor of Psychological Science at the University of California, Irvine. Her work is recognized across the globe for advancing knowledge of children’s eyewitness capabilities, abuse disclosure, and of the consequences of legal involvement on child victims, witnesses, and defendants. She has received numerous awards for her work and student training. She is dedicated to pursuing rigorous science on crucial topics relevant to identifying and intervening on behalf of victimized children, and to disseminating findings to law enforcement, legal and medical professionals, educators, and social service professionals in the U.S. and abroad. Most recently, with funding from the National Science Foundation and the Criminal Investigations and Network Analysis Center, she has been focused on improving legal interventions for adolescent victims of abuse and commercial sexual exploitation.

Key Points

The anti-human trafficking research community has been developing tools and forensic interview approaches for child victims of human trafficking. During investigations, it is important to give adolescents control by pausing and listening to them. Nationwide surveys with law enforcement, forensic interviewers, school psychologists, health care providers, et-cetera have assisted to understand what approaches are currently being used during investigations to know what changes are needed. Rapport building and trust in the beginning is crucial with adolescent victims.

Resources

Criminal Investigations and Network Analysis Center (CINA) Adolescent and Childhood Experience Lab

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 278, Identifying and Interacting with Minor Victims of Human Trafficking, with Dr. Jodi Quas.

Production Credits [00:00:13] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:33] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:39] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:41] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, we've had so many conversations over the years of thinking about children and the unfortunate connection with trafficking and there's so many things for us to learn and I'm thrilled today to be able to welcome back a guest. Absolutely an expert in so many of these areas and it's going to help us to really think about identification and interacting with victims. I'm so pleased to welcome back to the show, Jodi Quas. She is professor of psychological science at the University of California, Irvine. Her work is recognized across the globe for advancing knowledge of children's eyewitness capabilities, abuse disclosure, and of the consequences of legal involvement on child victims, witnesses, and defendants. She has received numerous awards for her work and student training. She's dedicated to pursuing rigorous science on crucial topics relevant to identifying and intervening on behalf of victimized children and disseminating findings to law enforcement, legal, and medical professionals, educators and social service professionals in the U.S. and abroad. Most recently, with funding from the National Science Foundation and the Criminal Investigations and Network Analysis Center, she has been focused on improving legal interventions for adolescent...

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Key Points

Tribal Community Response Plan to Missing and Unidentified Persons four guidelines:

Law Enforcement Victim Services Media and Communications Community Resources

The generation of individuals who experienced a loss of land, loss of culture, and loss of family integration continue to affect families and create vulnerabilities. The Office of the First Lady and Second Lady have an emphasis on building a resilient child, which includes educating the community and modeling it for children.

Resources

Navajo Nation Office of the First Lady and Second Lady Ensure Justice 2021: Race, Ethnicity, and New Immigrant Populations (Phefelia Nez starts at 39 minutes)

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Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss how to navigate being a leader and making change during and post COVID. Dave gives tips on balancing leadership roles, how to grow as a leader, and early foundational tips for starting a nonprofit. Dave Stachowiak

Dave is the host and founder of Coaching for Leaders, a top-rated management podcast downloaded 25 million times. With more than 15 years of leadership at Dale Carnegie and a thriving, global leadership academy, he helps leaders discover practical wisdom, build meaningful relationships, and create movement for genuine results. Dave is also founder of the Coaching for Leaders Academy, a year-long leadership development cohort. His credentials include a doctoral degree in organizational leadership from Pepperdine University, several international business leadership awards from Dale Carnegie, and graduation from Coach U. He also serves on the board of the Global Center for Women & Justice at Vanguard University and co-hosts the Ending Human Trafficking podcast with longtime friend, Sandie Morgan. Key Points

Leaders in nonprofits balance: 1)Leading the organizations mission and big picture; and 2) Managing the complex day-to-day organizational management Having a community and partnering with others in the same field can be beneficial for leaders to gain new skills and learn from people who are working in the same sphere and similar roles. Nonprofit leaders, or individuals who want to become leaders, need to distinguish between what feels good in the moment and what is actually good for the movement. Building a strong team and knowing how and what to delegate is key to sustainability.

Resources

Coaching for Leaders The Vision Driven Leader: 10 Questions to Focus Your Efforts, Energize Your Team, and Scale Your Business by Michael Hyatt How to Sell Your Vision with Michael Hyatt | Coaching for Leaders podcast How Great Teams Find Purpose, with David Burkus | Coaching for Leaders podcast Business Model Generation Effective Delegation of Authority, with Hassan Osman | Coaching for Leaders podcast How to Work With a Board, with Denice Hinden | Coaching for Leaders podcast How to Define a Role, with Pat Griffin | Coaching for Leaders podcast

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 276, Nonprofit Leadership with Coaching for Leaders host, Dave Stachowiak. Hey, that's me.

Production Credits [00:00:12] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, every two weeks we get together, we have a fabulous guest on who's an expert in some area to help us. Today you just have outdone yourself with the guest you have found. I am so impressed.

Sandie [00:00:57] Oh, my goodness, Dave, I'm so excited to tell everybody that my guest is Dave Stachowiak. Yay. And let me just do, be a little bit formal here. His bio: Dave is the host and founder of Coaching for Leaders, a top rated management podcast downloaded 25 million times with more than 15 years of leadership at Dale Carnegie and a thriving Global Leadership Academy, he helps leaders discover practical wisdom, build meaningful relationships, and create movement for genuine results. Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, Dave.

Dave [00:01:44] What a pleasure to be here. I feel like I've been here before somehow.

Sandie [00:01:49] Well,

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Dr. Morgan and Dr. Harris discuss overlapping social issues and the role of the community and the church in developing solutions with positive outcomes.

Rev. Dr. Antipas Harris Rev. Dr. Harris is a scholar-practitioner with nearly 20 years of experience as a university professor at several schools, including Sacred Heart University, New York Theological Seminary, Fuller Theological Seminary, Portland Theological Seminary, Vanguard University, and Regent University. He has held a lecture chair at North Central University in Minneapolis, Minnesota and also served as founding president-dean of Jakes Divinity School in Dallas, Texas. Rev. Dr. Harris is the founder and president of the Urban Renewal Center in Norfolk, Virginia. It is a center for moral thought, voice, and action. The center engages research, conversations, consulting, and community engagement. It advances principles and practices of diversity, equity, and inclusion for common good through the fusion of cultural competence and the ongoing process of cultural humility. Key Points

While there are many problems in the world, there are many people who want to be part of the solution to be mobilized. Research is important to understand if our outreach is having positive outcomes in the community we are serving. The church needs to be aware and equipped with how social issues often intersect, and be trained on how to discern when those differing issues arise in their community. Our lives and decisions are shaped by our shared experience and the social fabric of our community, therefore, our successes and challenges are community successes and challenges.

Resources

The Urban Renewal Center

Human trafficking in plain sight: the story of a true survivor Keeya Vawar

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 275 Reflections on Human Trafficking from a Community Leader.

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:34] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, so much of what we've talked about on the show over the years is from the perspective of partnership, and there's no greater partnership than the partnership within our communities. I'm so glad today to be able to welcome community leader and expert who will help us to really bring some new perspective into this conversation. I'm so pleased to welcome the Reverend Dr. Antipas Harris. He is a scholar practitioner with more than 20 years of experience as a university professor at several schools, namely Sacred Heart University, New York Theological Seminary, Fuller Theological Seminary, Portland Theological Seminary, Vanguard University, and Regent University, where he was a tenured associate professor and held administrative roles. He has held a lecture chair at North Central University in Minneapolis. He's also served as the founding president and dean of Jakes Divinity School in Dallas, Texas. He's the founder and president of the Urban Renewal Center in Norfolk, Virginia. It is a center for moral thought, voice and action. The center engages research, conversations, consulting and community engagement. It advances principles and practices of diversity, equity and inclusion for common good through the fusion of cultural competence and the ongoing process of cultural humility. Dr. Harris, what a pleasure to have you on the show.

Dr. Harris [00:02:04] I'm honored to be here. Thank you and Dr.

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Sandie Morgan and Ashleigh Chapman take a deep dive into all the work Ashleigh has been doing through her various organizations, how her team is developing tools to identify and fill the gaps, and connecting organizations across the nation to collaborate with one another. Ashleigh Chapman

Ashleigh Chapman has a Law Degree from Regent University and was recently named USA Today’s Women of the Year honoree from Wyoming, and has spent her entire career working to end human trafficking across the world. She runs a variety of organizations, including Altus Solutions, a “business for good” founded in Wyoming that powers solutions to end trafficking; the Alliance for Freedom, Restoration and Justice, a non-profit that’s connected more than 10,000 anti-trafficking advocates across the world; and Justice U, an online learning platform where “students” can learn the basics of how to identify human trafficking. Key Points

We are in a transition of awareness education to specific education on how we all play a role in ending human trafficking. Developing new tools for impact analysis so organizations can understand the impact of their activities and identify where the gaps are. More awareness is being given to the intersectionality between missing and murdered indigenous women and human trafficking. We need to address human trafficking with a high level of excellence so those receiving services are getting the best from our non-profits, government agencies, social workers, law enforcement, etc.

Resources

USA Today | Wyoming’s Ashleigh Chapman says we can end human trafficking — and she can teach you how Alliance for Freedom, Restoration, and Justice Engage Together Justice U

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 274, USA Today Women of the Year Honoree, Ashleigh Chapman.

Production Credits [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak

Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan,

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, it's such a pleasure to come together with you twice a month here on the show because we get to hear from so many wonderful experts who have received such incredible recognition all over the world from all kinds of organizations. Today is no exception. I'm so glad to welcome an expert today. We're going to be able to learn so much from Ashleigh Chapman. She has a law degree from Regent University and was recently named USA Today's Women of the Year Honoree from Wyoming and has spent her entire career working to end human trafficking across the world. She's doing it by running a variety of organizations, including Alta Solutions, a business for good founded in Wyoming that powers solutions to end trafficking; the Alliance for Freedom, Restoration and Justice, a nonprofit that's connected more than 10,000 anti-trafficking advocates around the world; and Justice U, an online learning platform where students can learn the basics of how to identify human trafficking. Ashleigh we're so glad to have you with us on the show.

Ashleigh [00:01:52] Thank you so much, Dave and Sandie, well I'm just thrilled to be with you both and just so grateful for your advocacy and efforts through this podcast and so many other ways on an issue like this. It's a joy to join you today.

Sandie [00:02:03] Well, I'm excited to have you here. First of all, congratulations on this important recognition. I met you at a conference in Philadelphia more than a decade ago. And yeah,

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Dave Stachowiak interviews co-authors, Shayne Moore, Sandie Morgan, and Kimberly Yim about their newly released book: Ending Human Trafficking: A Handbook of Strategies for the Church Today. Together, they discuss the inspiration for the book and each of their unique take on equipping leaders in the church. Speakers

Shayne Moore, MA Shayne Moore is an author, editor, and activist. She coauthored Refuse To Do Nothing: Finding Your Power to Abolish Modern Day Slavery, which was named a 2014 Resource of the Year in Outreach Magazine. Shayne is the cofounder of Redbud Writers Guild, and former director of operations at the Humanitarian Disaster Institute at Wheaton College Graduate School. With an MA in theology, Shayne is a national guest lecturer on issues of global justice. Sandie Morgan, PhD, RN Sandie Morgan is director of the Global Center for Women and Justice at Vanguard University. She is recognized globally as a leader in the fight against human trafficking. She hosts the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, and she also served by presidential appointment on the Public-Private Partnership Advisory Council to End Human Trafficking. Kimberly Yim, MA Kimberly McOwen Yim is cofounder and executive director of the SOCO Institute, and she writes and speaks on issues related to human trafficking. She is also coauthor (with Shayne Moore) of Refuse To Do Nothing: Finding Your Power to Abolish Modern Day Slavery.

Key Points

The book was written to give churches and the faith-based communities an understanding of their unique role in the fight against human trafficking. Learning about human trafficking will build awareness about prevention gaps, or even how we are already fighting human trafficking in our community. Invitations to begin:

Join - you don't need to reinvent the wheel; join and grow the resources around you. Pray - seek wisdom from God to see where the gaps are or how you are already fighting through prevention. Collaborate - look at the resources in your community to see where you fit and partner with others in your community to build a strong safety net.

Resources

Ending Human Trafficking: A Handbook of Strategies for the Church Today (InterVarsity Press or Amazon)

Use code: EHT30 for 30% off and free shipping from InterVarsity Press

Ep. 272 - The Cool Aunt, with Rachel Thomas Ep. 266 - Rescuing Boys Labor Trafficked in the Fishing Industry, with Chris Fields

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, this is episode number 273 Ending Human Trafficking: The Book!

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:34] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, I am so looking forward to this conversation today because we are featuring the book that is coming out on ending human trafficking with both you and two of your co-authors. And I'm so glad that we have the entire author team here today to be able to talk about this new book and to really look at some of the key lessons that are coming out of it. So first of all, congratulations to all of you on this book coming out, and I'm really glad to introduce to our audience today, Shayne Moore, Kimberly Yim, and of course, my co-host Sandie. Shayne Moore is the author of five books, including Ending Human Trafficking: A Strategy for the Church Today and was director of operations at the Humanitarian Disaster Institute at Wheaton College Graduate School with ...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Rachel Thomas discuss a new curriculum developed as a resource for parents, social work agencies, after school programs, and more. The Cool Aunt Series is an online prevention course developed for youth that will guide them through understanding human trafficking and provide resources and support throughout and after the curriculum. Rachel Thomas

A graduate of UCLA with a Masters in Education and a personal survivor of human trafficking, Rachel has extensive experience teaching, training, curriculum writing, public speaking and mentoring. As the founder of Sowers Education Group and the lead author of Ending The Game and The Cool Aunt, she has educated and inspired a wide range of audiences including teens, social service providers, churches, teachers, college students, and law enforcement. Sowers’ intervention curriculum Ending The Game is being used by over 1,000 facilitators in 36 states and helps survivors break the bonds of attachment to traffickers and the lifestyle of commercial sexual exploitation. Since 2012, Rachel and the Sowers Team have reached over 150,000 live audience members and millions more through numerous media outlets including New Day Morning Show on CNN, Inside with Chris Cuomo: Anyone’s Daughter on HLN, The T.D. Jakes Show, The New York Times Upfront Magazine and ABC’s Newsmakers. Rachel was not only honored by Congressman Ed Royce of California’s 39th district and Los Angeles Supervisor Don Knabe for her leadership and trafficking prevention efforts, but was also nominated and appointed to the White House Advisory Council on Human Trafficking for 2020-2022 term. Key Points

They are moving beyond awareness and focusing on education so youth fully understand what human trafficking is, who it happens, who perpetrates it, why it happens, and the resources available. The Cool Aunt series is developed to be a resource for parents, after-school programs, social service agencies, etc. that can be done online. S.T.R.E.A.M.S. of Influence

S - Survival T - Trafficker R - Recruiter E - Environment A - Abuse M - Media S - Solicitation

Resources

EP. 196 - Rachel Thomas: Ending the Game Sowers Education Group Ending The Game The Cool Aunt Series Ensure Justice Conference

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 272, The Cool Aunt, with Rachel Thomas.

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:28] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:33] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:36] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie and I are so glad to have Rachel Thomas back on the show today. If you didn't listen to our prior conversation with her, I'm so glad to introduce Rachel to you. She is a graduate of UCLA with a master's in education and a personal survivor of human trafficking. Rachel has extensive experience teaching, training, curriculum writing, public speaking, and mentoring. As the founder of Sowers Education Group and the lead author of Ending The Game and The Cool Aunt. She has educated and inspired a wide range of audiences, including teens, social service providers, churches, teachers, college students, and law enforcement. Her intervention curriculum, Ending The Game, is being used by over a thousand facilitators in 36 states and helps survivors break the bonds of attachment to traffickers and the lifestyle of commercial sexual exploitation. Since 2012, Rachel and the Sowers team have reached over 150,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dr. Jeanette Morgan discuss how our perception of stress changes our physiological response to stress. They look at how we can relearn what stress means to us, how we model a healthy response to stress to kids, and why its important to understand why we get stressed to begin with.

Jeanette Morgan, PsyD

Jeanette Morgan, PsyD, earned her doctorate in Clinical Psychology at Azusa Pacific University. She provides individual therapy utilizing evidence-based treatments to children, adolescents, and adults who struggle with anxiety, panic, OCD, tic disorders, trauma, grief and loss, relationship problems, singleness, self-esteem, and behavioral problems. In addition to her therapy work, Dr. Morgan is also a licensed educational psychologist with almost 20 years of special education experience, first as a Special Education Teacher and then as a School Psychologist. Dr. Morgan’s warm, compassionate, and optimistic style encourages those she works with to connect, feel seen and heard, and feel hopeful. She believes that everyone is doing the best that they can with what they know, and that expanding what they know through discovering their personal patterns and learning new skills is empowering and builds resilience.

Key Points

Understanding that stress is helpful for our body shifts how our body and hormones respond. When we are stressed, we release oxytocin which encourages us to reach out and connect with people we care about. We teach kids that stress is a positive response from our body by modeling it and talking to them about stress.

Resources

JLM Psychological Services

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 271, Using Stress to Your Advantage, with Jeanette Morgan.

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:34] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, on most episodes we get one Dr. Morgan. On this episode today we get double the Dr. Morgan's. I'm so glad to welcome our expert guest today, someone you know well, Jeanette Morgan. Jeanette earned her doctorate in clinical psychology at Azusa Pacific University. She provides individual therapy using evidence based treatments to children, adolescents, and adults who struggle with anxiety, panic, OCD, tic disorders, trauma, grief and loss, relationship problems, singleness, self-esteem, and behavioral problems. In addition to her therapy work, Jeanette is also a licensed educational psychologist with almost 20 years of special education experience, first as a special education teacher and then as a school psychologist. Her warm, compassionate and optimistic style encourages those who work with her to feel connected, heard and feel hopeful. She believes that everyone is doing the best they can with what they know, and that expanding what they know through discovery in their personal patterns and learning new skills is empowering and builds resilience. And Sandie, unlike many of our guests, I've had a chance to know Jeanie for many years and I can say she is all of those things. Jeanie, so glad to have you here on the show.

Jeanette [00:01:58] Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Sandie [00:02:00] Well, not any more excited than I am. And just for our listeners, there is a stronger connection here. Dr. Jeanie Morgan is my daughter and I have followed her career in just amazement and wonder at her persistence and pers...

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In this episode, Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Brooke Istook from Thorn to discuss how parents can protect their children through equipping themselves with knowledge and resources. They dive into research on child sexual abuse materials and look at studies demonstrating the difficulties youth are having navigating in an increasing digital environment. Brooke Istook Brooke Istook is Vice President of Youth and Communities at Thorn, a tech non-profit and global leader in fighting online child sexual abuse. She leads Thorn’s education and behavior change work to prevent online child sexual abuse. Brooke and her team use child-centered research and digital interventions to empower youth and families with knowledge and tools to navigate the digital world safely. Brooke joined Thorn in 2014 to lead the launch of Spotlight, a sex trafficking investigation tool and has also led critical strategic and operational initiatives across the organization to support their strategy to eliminate child sexual abuse material from the internet. Prior to joining Thorn, Brooke spent over 12 years working in tech consulting, operations, and program management, supporting Fortune 500 clients in telecommunications and entertainment. Key Points

Thorn develops programming that focuses on equipping parents to have conversations with their children, even when a digital divide exists from lack of experience and knowledge. In 2020, over 65 million images and videos of child sexual abuse material were reported to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Research has demonstrated that for tweens and teens, age gaps become more blurry and difficult to navigate in an online space compared to in-person. Thorn research showed that one in five 9 to 12-year-olds that were surveyed had had a sexual interaction with someone they believed to be an adult. Thorn for Parents has developed toolkits and conversation guides for parents on how to have conversations with their child(ren) about digital safety, privacy, and red flags.

Resources

NoFiltr TikTok campaign Thorn for Parents - Be Your Kid's Safety Net Thorn's Research and Resources

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 270, How Can Parents Defend Children? with Thorns Brooke Istook.

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] My name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, today we're glad to welcome another expert with us, Brooke Istook. She is vice president of youth and communities at Thorn, a tech nonprofit and global leader in fighting online child sexual abuse. She leads Thorn's education and behavior change work to prevent online child sexual abuse. Brooke and her team use child centered research and digital interventions to empower youth and families with knowledge and tools to navigate the digital world safely. Brooke, we're so glad to have you on the show today.

Brooke [00:01:17] Oh, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Sandie [00:01:21] I've already had a couple of conversations by phone and email, and I'm so excited about the content of our conversation today. I've been following Thorn for a long time and Thorn's work has leveraged technology in ways that are innovative, including building software to help both law enforcement and tech companies stop online child sexual abuse and trafficking. And recently,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Matt Friedman and they discuss how businesses play a role in combatting human trafficking by auditing their supply chains, educating corporate executives, and developing tools for businesses. Matt Friedman

Matt Friedman is an international human trafficking expert. From 2006 to 2012, Matt was the Regional Project Manager of the United Nations Inter-Agency Project on Human Trafficking (UNIAP) in Thailand, an inter-agency coordinating body that links the United Nations system with governments and civil society groups in China, Cambodia, Lao PDR, Myanmar, Thailand, and Vietnam. From 1991-2006, Matt worked for the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) in Thailand, Bangladesh and Nepal. For over a decade, he worked passionately to design and manage both domestic and regional human trafficking programs. He also helped establish a counter-trafficking regional training centre, participated in resource mobilization, and produced two award-winning international films about sex trafficking. Matt is a technical advisor to numerous governments. He is frequently cited in the news media, has been invited to speak at major conferences around the world, and is the author of nine books. Key Points

About 0.2% victims of human trafficking receive any assistance. Business can be a catalyst for change due to the presence of labor trafficking in supply chains and the consequences of neglecting to address it. "Rescuing" a victim involves understanding the desperation that brought them to exploitation and the opportunities they have access to after. In order for change to happen, corporate executives need to understand the problem and their own company's supply chain and recruitment methods.

Resources

The Mekong Club Where Were You? A Profile of Modern Slavery by Matthew S. Friedman Ep. 247 - Perspectives on Transformation in Labor Trafficking with Ben Skinner Ep. 73 - Hidden Girl: The True Story of a Modern Child Slave Apprise App Ep. 267 - The Intersection of Business and Human Rights, with John Cotton Richmond

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 269 Empowering Businesses to Create a Slave Free World, with Matt Friedman.

Production Credits [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, we have had so many conversations over the years about the importance of partnerships and the importance of working closely with businesses, of course. And we've many times had a conversation that involves the word "global". It's even in the name of the Global Center for Women and Justice. Today, I know that Matt is going to really help us with some wonderful perspective on both, of looking at things through the lens of business, but also to be able to look at our world as we really need to in almost every context through a global lens. I'm so glad to welcome Matt Friedman to the show. He's an international human trafficking expert and CEO of the Mekong Club. He has served the United Nations and Thailand linking civil society and governments in Asia. His work also includes more than a decade of working with USAID, which is the United States Agency for International Development in Thailand, Bangladesh and Nepal. He worked passionately to design and manage both domestic and regional human trafficking programs.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Dr. Anne Light to discuss the ways we can rebuild the brain, including meditation, cognitive and behavioral therapy, and medications. Dr. Anne Light Dr. Anne Light, MD Dr. Anne Light is a pediatrician specializing in childhood trauma. She earned her MD from Harvard Medical School (2005) and completed residency training in pediatrics at Massachusetts General Hospital (2008) with a focus in trauma and emergency care. Until 2015 she worked as pediatric provider within the Massachusetts General/Partners system and led several multidisciplinary collaborations to improve patient care and trauma outcomes. In addition, from 2008-2011 Dr. Light served as the Executive Director of a nonprofit to optimize early learning in children aged zero to three. In 2015 she joined the Orange County Social Services Agency, where she serves as the Medical Director and is working to create interdisciplinary programs to support children and families. She is currently leading and developing the WE CAN Coalition: Working to End Child Abuse and Neglect. This group has more than 150 members from across Orange County organized into 9 task forces in order to improve the prevention, diagnosis, and treatment of maltreatment in children, families and communities. Key Points

ACE, adverse childhood events, studies have highlighted the effects of neglect on child development. Trauma can neurologically affect brain development in youth by putting more emphasis on the fight-flight-freeze response, and less emphasis on the development of stop, think, solve. The neuroplasticity of the brain allows individuals to continuously grow, no matter the age. Meditation can help rebalance the blood flow in your brain and allow underdeveloped regions grow. Two great therapies for trauma:

Trauma-Focused Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (TF-CBT) Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR)

Resources

WE CAN Coalition Neuroscience of Maltreatment, Dr. Annie Light -- Ensure Justice Conference 2018

Preventing and Addressing Child Trafficking Project

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Transcript

Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, this is episode number 268, Rebuilding the Brain, with Dr. Anne Light

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:28] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:33] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:36] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, I'm so glad for us to have today, again, another expert with us is going to help us to really think about things so proactively and to look at things from a standpoint of research and in today's case, of course, a bit on health care and medicine. Please join me in welcoming Dr. Anne Light to the show today. She is a pediatrician specializing in childhood trauma. She earned her M.D. from Harvard Medical School and completed residency training in pediatrics at Massachusetts General Hospital with a focus in trauma and emergency care. Until 2015, she worked as a pediatric provider within the Massachusetts General Partner System and led several multidisciplinary collaborations to improve patient care and trauma outcomes. In addition, she served as the executive director of a nonprofit to optimize early learning in children aged zero to three. In 2015, she joined the Orange County Social Services Agency, where she serves as the medical director and is working to create interdisciplinary programs to support children and families. She is currently leading and developing the WE CAN Coalition: Workin...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Ambassador John Cotton Richmond to discuss the intersection of business and human rights. Together they look at how the conversations in board rooms is shifting to discussions on their supply chains, exploitation, and other impacts that their business has on the communities around them. John Cotton Richmond

Ambassador Richmond is an attorney and diplomat focused on ethical business, human rights, democracy, and rule of law. He served in the country’s highest position dedicated to combating human trafficking as a U.S. Ambassador where he led U.S. foreign policy in the global fight for freedom. As a Partner at Dentons, Ambassador Richmond helps companies keep their supply chains and workforces free of human trafficking. He was named one of the federal “Prosecutors of the Year,” after a decade successfully trying complex police misconduct, cross-burning, neo-Nazi hate crimes, forced labor, and sex trafficking cases across the country. Ambassador Richmond is a Senior Fellow at the Atlantic Council, frequent expert for the United Nations, and frequent speaker on justice, freedom, leadership, faith, and vocation. Key Points

Environmental, Social, and Governance (ESG) - corporations paying more attention to how their supply chain affects people Disclosure requirements and public awareness is shifting the conversation in corporate boardrooms to look more closely at their sourcing. Business can address global poverty because a well run business that pays fair wages leads to economic prosperity for families and communities. Addressing poverty as we emerge from the pandemic:

investing in surrounding communities that were most damaged improving the rule of law developing programs that provide tailored services for survivors

Consumers play a part through how we vote with our wallet and putting pressure on companies for ethical sourcing.

Resources

California Transparency in Supply Chains Act Modern Slavery Act Ep. 266 - Rescuing Boys Labor Trafficked in the Fishing Industry with Chris Field John Cotton Richmond's website ILAB - 2020 Findings on the Worst Forms of Child Labor Ep. 262 - Human-Centered Design with Shauntina Sorrells Ensure Justice Conference - March 4-5 , 2022

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, this is episode number 267, The Intersection of Business and Human Rights with John Cotton Richmond.

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, today we have with us not only an expert, but a dear friend in the work that we've been doing to end human trafficking. I'm so glad to welcome John Cotton Richmond back to the show. His career has taken him to the front lines in the global battle against human trafficking as a partner at Denton's, the world's largest law firm. He focuses on the intersection between business and human rights. John advises companies on how to keep their supply chains free of forced labor and their workforces free of sex trafficking. Before joining Denton's, the U.S. Senate unanimously confirmed John, and he served as the U.S. Ambassador to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons from 2018 to 2021, serving in the nation's highest ranking position dedicated to human trafficking. John led U.S. foreign policy related to modern slavery and coordinated the U.S. government's response to the crime. Mr.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Chris Field from Mercy Project in Ghana, an organization that works with the community through education and empowerment to combat labor trafficking and build stronger communities. Chris Field Chris Field is the Founder and Executive Director of Mercy Project. He traveled to Ghana for the first time in August 2009 and has since been on a mission to bring new life to children in slavery as well as empower those around him to make the world a better place. Chris and his wife Stacey have five children He is the author of Disrupting for Good and A Billion Hours of Good. Key Points

Redefining the word "rescue" to become about empowerment and new opportunities. Holistic, community-centered approach to rescuing children from labor trafficking and reuniting them with family. On the ground staff are Ghanaians that understand and have relationships with their communities. Empowering and developing sustainable solutions for the community and families to build stronger safety networks for the children.

Resources

Mercy Project Ep. 247 – Perspectives on Transformation in Labor Trafficking with Ben Skinner Ensure Justice Conference

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 266, Rescuing Boys Labor Trafficked in the Fishing Industry with Chris Field.

Production Credits [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, I'm so looking forward to this conversation today, like I am for for so many of our conversations because I learn something new and one thing I realized in preparation for today's conversation about the fishing industry is I know very little about this industry. And of course, as we've talked about so often on the show, there's so many different aspects of trafficking and it touches, unfortunately, every industry in some way. Today, we're going to study the issues even more so we can ultimately be a voice and make a difference in all the work that we're doing. And I'm so glad to welcome Chris Field to the show today. He is the founder and executive director of Mercy Project. He traveled to Ghana for the first time in August 2009 and has since been on a mission to bring new life to children in slavery, as well as empower those around him to make the world a better place. Chris and his wife, Stacey, have five children, and he is the author of Disrupting for Good and a Billion Hours of Good. Chris, we're so glad to have you on the show today.

Chris [00:01:51] Dave, Sandie, thank you guys so much for having me. It's truly an honor to be with you.

Sandie [00:01:56] Well, Dave, I already had one conversation with Chris and we couldn't fit it all into a half an hour, so we're going to dive right in and do our best today. Let's start by reframing the word rescue. Chris, typically I imagine people running out of a burning house and the fireman running in to rescue any other occupants. But your definition is a little different. Can you expand on that?

Chris [00:02:31] Yeah, of course. I mean, first, let me say we've had as a community and as an organization, we've had dozens of hours of conversation around this word because we don't want it to connote this savior complex of some sort and we've really struggled over the word. Is there a better word to explain what it is that happens in a community when children who have been bought for 20, 30,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by three speakers from the AVODAH Collective, an organization that is partnering with churches to create space for women survivors of sex trafficking, young people, and families to find restoration through trauma-informed aftercare. They all discuss ingredients of the "secret sauce" to sustainable housing and aftercare. Speakers

Deb O'Hara-Rusckowski, RN, MBA, MTS Delegate and Special Advisor to the Ambassador on Human Trafficking for the Order of Malta to the United Nations Co-Founder of Global Strategic Operatives Deb is a critical care nurse by training with a BSN, MBA and a Master’s in Theology with a concentration in bioethics. After working in healthcare and the private sector for 30+ years, she now concentrates in public, non-profit organizations, and philanthropy. She works in areas where she can combine her passion for healthcare, business and faith.

Keenan Fitzpatrick Co-founder of the AVODAH Collective Keenan and his wife, Brianna, live in Denver, Colorado with four children and a fifth on its way. After spending 8 years of fundraising work for catholic initiatives, including anti-human trafficking, Keenan and Brianna founded a 501c3, The AVODAH Collective, by acquiring land through impact investment to build its first location for care modeled after the Metanoia Manor of trauma informed care.

Sister Mary Anthony Eucharistic Heart of Jesus Order in Lagos, Nigeria Key Points

Shortage of beds makes long term housing and safe placement difficult for aftercare. AVODAH Collective works with churches in the community to repurpose unused buildings as safe homes for survivors. Churches are positioned in ideal locations with access to public transportation and safe communities. Reintegration involves:

12 to 24 month long-term housing sustainable staff free child care stage 2, long-term independent housing

Resources

The AVODAH Collective Metanoia Manor Trust-Based Relational Intervention (TBRI) instruction Global Strategic Operatives Ep. 239 - The Rise of Prevention and the Role of the Faith Based Community Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 265 Sustainable Housing, Aftercare, and Existing Resources with AVODAH Collective.

Production Credits [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, today we have such a wonderful panel with us that is going to, I know, illuminate so many wonderful things that are happening with AVODAH and I'm so glad to introduce. We have three guests today, so I'm going to jump right in and actually share a bit about our guests. First of all, so glad to welcome Deb O'Hara-Rusckowski. Deb is a critical care nurse by training. After working in health care and the private sector for over 30 years, she now concentrates in public, nonprofit organizations, and philanthropy. She works in areas where she can combine her passion for health care, business, and faith. She's the special advisor to the ambassador on human trafficking for the Order of Malta to the United Nations. I'm also glad to welcome Keenan Fitzpatrick to the show. Keenan and his wife, Brianna, live in Denver, Colorado, with four children, a fifth on the way. After spending eight years in fundraising work for anti-sex trafficking, Keenan and Brianna founded a 501(c)3, the AVODAH Collective,

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Co-hosts, Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dr. Dave Stachowiak, discuss the wellbeing of all our children. The emphasize the need to provide access to education and access to social services in order to see that all the children are fine, which will lead to a strong community. Key Points

High percentage of youth who have been identified as CSEC were also previously identified by Social Services for prior abuse. ACEs screening tests serve as a preventative tool to provide resources to youth who are vulnerable. From 2019-2020, child labor increased for the first time in two decades. Corporations and consumers play a role in demanding fair labor.

Resources

Ep. 263: Substance Use Prevention in Schools with Stephan Lambert 2019-2020 Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force Report Ep. 73: Hidden Girl: The True Story of a Modern Child Slave - Shyima Hall Ep. 172: Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE) and Building Resilience CDC - Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) ACEs Aware - acesaware.org ILAB - 2020 Findings on the Worst Forms of Child Labor UN SDG - Goal #1: No Poverty Sweat & Toil app Comply Chain app Ep. 247: Perspectives on Transformation in Labor Trafficking with Ben Skinner

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 264, How Are All the Children?

Production Credits [00:00:08] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:34] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, in our last episode, we talked to Stephan Lambert about all of the current issues with substance abuse going on with kids and teens right now. It's a fascinating and difficult conversation, but such an important one. I hope folks will go revisit if they haven't already heard it. And it's a great lead-in to today's conversation, isn't it? How are all the children?

Sandie [00:01:11] Oh my goodness. Yeah. The timing couldn't have been better, really. And back at Vanguard, our students are back in person and it's a very different environment, and anxiety and stress responses are different. But I was inspired by a school superintendent from Long Beach a few months ago who mentioned there is an African greeting that says, How are the children? And I thought, that's pretty interesting. So I dug into it and spent a few hours on the internet reading and discovered that there is a Maasai warrior greeting. And the key here, Dave, is warrior. The key word. And I think sometimes we think the frontline in human trafficking is raiding brothels. But over and over again, I come back to prevention and that starts in childhood. So these warriors greet each other and Maasai warriors are very tall and very strong, and they look intimidating. And so when they greet each other with how are all the children, the correct response if you're protecting your village is all the children are fine. So Dave, you're a Maasai warrior. I'm a Maasai warrior. How are all the children, Dave?

Dave [00:02:53] All the children are fine. Or, are they not are?

Sandie [00:02:58] Ah, and I was telling this story at Priceless and Judge Maria Hernandez and Judge Joanne Motoike, who have worked with our children CSEC survivors for years, both said at the same time, all the children are not fine. And that's why I believe that we need to reframe prevention as the front line. And if you start thinking about what that looks like, we aren't going to have the number of victims further on down the road if we do ...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Stephan Lambert, the Prevention Coordinator with OCDE. Together, they discuss the prevalence of substance use amongst youth, prevention strategies, and intervention to teach youth about the harms of substance use and the signs of withdrawals, addiction, and mental health disorders.

Stephan Lambert

Stephan Lambert is the Prevention Coordinator at the Orange County Department of Education. He has fourteen years of experience in substance abuse prevention, positive youth development, family and community engagement, and developmental asset building. In his role at OCDE, he supports schools and districts with training and technical assistance around alcohol, tobacco, and other drug prevention. Key Points

Orange County fentanyl overdoses have significantly increased Substance use prevention strategies:

Start conversations around health, safety, and poison control Cultivating a warm and supportive relationship Be a role model Knowing the risk factors Know their friends Monitoring, supervising and setting boundaries

Have conversations with youth to help them understand the signs of addiction and mental health disorders so they know when to seek help. Building a healthy and caring relationship with youth so they understand they have safe place to turn for help.

Resources

Fentanyl visuals showing the potency of fentanyl and the appearance of real vs counterfeit pills A comprehensive resource e-book for families with a young person struggling with opioid use The Six Parenting Practices to help prevent substance use A guide from the CA Department of Public Health on what parents and mentors need to know about cannabis Free support to quit vaping or smoking, or call 1-866-NEW-LUNG NAMI WarmLine - National HelpLine Directory

Orange County, California NAMI WarmLine

Health Care Agency Behavioral Health line online chat, or call 1-855-OC-LINKS Ensure Justice Conference | March 4-5, 2022

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 263, Substance Use Prevention in Schools with Stephan Lambert.

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, we've had so many conversations over the years about partnership, and of course, schools have come up in these conversations often. Today, I'm so glad for us to be able to welcome an expert that will help us to look at this issue through the lens of school. And of course, some of the current things that are happening right now that'll help us all to be better educated and to be able to take the next steps. I'm so pleased to welcome Stephan Lambert to the show today. He is the prevention coordinator at the Orange County Department of Education. His 14 years of experience and substance abuse prevention, positive youth development, family and community engagement and developmental asset building. In his role at OCDE, he supports schools and districts with training and technical assistance around alcohol, tobacco and other drug prevention. Stephan, we're so glad to have you on the show.

Stephan [00:01:37] Thank you. So glad to be here.

Sandie [00:01:39] Well, I'm excited to have this conversation. Every time I have the opportunity to learn from you I walk away shocked, sometimes a little overwhelmed, but definitely better equipped to deal with what our kids are facing a...

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In this episode of the podcast, Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Dr. Shauntina Sorrells, Chief Program Officer at Orangewood Foundation. Dr. Sorrells discusses what a human-centered design is, the various stages, and how to implement it. Dr. Shauntina Sorrells, MSW DSW

Dr. Shauntina Sorrells joined Orangewood Foundation in 2019. She holds a Master’s and Doctorate in Social Work. Dr. Sorrells is certified in Trauma Informed Training and has been a Trainer of Trauma Informed Practices for various Orange County establishments such as the OC Probation Department and the OC Juvenile and Family Court Judges. She loves to see youth accomplish something they set out to do. “I believe that every youth can reach their greatest potential and I believe that is what Orangewood has always done.” When Dr. Sorrells is not advocating for OC youth, she loves to craft and go camping with her family. Key Points

Human centered design is a thought process to develop programs that incorporate the needs and the voice of those being served. Incorporating the voices of those affected by the problem ensures the development of quality programs. There are three phases to a human-centered design:

Inspiration Ideation Implementation

There are three main populations affected by a problem that need to be included in a human-centered design--primary, secondary, and tertiary levels.

Resources

Human-Centered Design - IDEO Field Guide to Human-Centered Design

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Transcription Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, this is episode number 262 Human-centered design with Shauntina Sorrells.

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today, we're so glad to introduce to you a local partner, someone who's just a wonderful voice, an expert in helping us all to move forward on ending human trafficking. I'm so pleased to introduce to you, Dr. Shauntina Sorrells. She is the Chief Program Officer at Orangewood Foundation, a transitional age youth serving organization here in Orange County, California. Shauntina completed her doctorate in social work at USC. She holds a master's degree in social work from Cal State University of Long Beach and obtained her bachelor's in psychology from Vanguard University. Shauntina also serves as a professor for her alma mater, Vanguard and Walla Walla University. Courses she enjoys teaching include program development, social psychology, child and adolescent development, community psychology, treating addictions and couples, and domestic violence. Shauntina has worked with families, youth and foster care, individuals in crisis, and organizations seeking innovation and change. Her expertise is in programs that provide community based programing to change the social norms that challenge systemic issues facing underserved populations. Shauntina is certified in trauma informed care training and has been a trainer of trauma informed practices for the Orange County Probation Department, the O.C. Juvenile Court, public defender's office, and other youth serving agencies. She's been asked to sit as a former foster youth voice for Orange County Department of Education and Social Services. Shauntina, what a pleasure to have you on the show. Welcome.

Shauntina [00:02:17] It's an honor to be here today with you both.

Sandie [00:02:20] Well, and Shuanitna and I just had lunch together with 250 other ...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by Sarah Byrne, founding member of the National Survivor Law Collective. Dr. Morgan and Sarah discuss the need for trauma-informed legal services for survivors of human trafficking and their complex legal needs. Sarah Byrne

Sarah has years of experience representing survivors of sex and labor trafficking and is nationally recognized for her work in combatting human trafficking. Sarah is a frequent conference speaker and advocate for legislative change in support of trafficking victims. She is a founding member of the National Survivor Law Collective, a national network of trauma-informed lawyers providing legal aid to survivors. Representing MVA as a participating member, Sarah works with the United Nation’s Finance Against Slavery and Trafficking (“FAST”) Initiative to increase survivor access to financial services and guide banks on the Survivor Inclusion Initiative. Key Points

Establishing a collective of trauma-informed pro-bono legal services for survivors of human trafficking. There is a consequential need to have trauma-informed lawyers who understand the complex trauma that survivors have faced in order to prevent retraumatization and build trustful relationships. Many survivors seek vacatur or expungement of crimes that are directly related to their exploitation. Victim witnesses play a significant role as advocates for survivors who are navigating the legal system. Restitution to survivors gives them the resources to become financially independent.

Resources

National Survivor Law Collective - Website National Survivor Law Collective - LinkedIn United Nations Finance Against Slavery and Trafficking Ensure Justice Conference - March 4-5, 2022

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 261, Legal Advocacy with Sarah Byrne.

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. If you've been listening for any length of time, you know one of the things that we love to do on the show is to be able to bring in the voice of partners and experts who can help us to understand more of the complexity around trafficking and also, most importantly, help us to take the first steps to end it. I'm so glad to welcome today Sarah Byrne to the show. She is an attorney in North Carolina who has been representing trafficking survivors for years. She understands trauma and carefully provides legal services to help her clients. Sarah is now leading the National Survivor Law Collective, where she helps lawyers at law firms from all over the country provide pro-bono services to survivors. Sarah has had years of experience representing survivors of sex and labor trafficking and is nationally recognized for her work in combatting human trafficking. Sarah is a frequent conference speaker and advocate for legislative change in support of trafficking victims. She's a founding member of the National Survivor Law Collective, a national network of trauma informed lawyers providing legal aid to survivors representing MVA as a participating member. Sarah works with the United Nations Finance Against Slavery and Trafficking Fast Initiative to increase survivor access to financial services and guide banks on the Survivor Inclusion Initiative. Sarah, so glad to welcome you to the show.

Sarah [00:02:05] Thank you for having me.

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Rachel Parker discuss labor trafficking outreach strategies, touching on community allyship, training and safety protocols, and outreach with and to the local community to identify labor trafficking victims. Rachel Parker

Rachel Parker is the Anti-Human Trafficking Services Program Manager at World Relief Triad, which she had led for 10 years. She has a master's in international studies from East Carolina University. Rachel coordinates and supervises outreach and direct services for survivors of both labor and sex trafficking, as well as supervising the coordination of the Triad Labor Trafficking Task Force, the Guilford Minor Trafficking Response Team, and the Triad Rapid Response Team to support victim identification and effective responses across Guilford, Forsyth and Davidson counties. Key Points

Development of a labor trafficking task force to fill the gap in identification and building stronger networks across the community. Outreach at seasonal fairs required community support and yielded responses from migrant populations. Redefining success to also include providing information and awareness of services available to victims of labor trafficking, even when they decline services. For outreach, using a decentralized bystander approach. Prioritizing safety for workers and volunteers during outreach.

Resources

The Typology of Modern Slavery: Defining Sex and Labor Trafficking in the United States - Polaris Project Anti-Human Trafficking Resources - World Relief Triad Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate - Vanguard University

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, this is episode number 260 Labor Trafficking Outreach with Rachel Parker.

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today, Sandie, so glad that we have an expert with us to really look at labor trafficking outreach in more detail. I'm so glad to welcome to the show today Rachel Parker. She has led World Relief Triad's anti-human trafficking program for 10 years. She has a master's in international studies from East Carolina University. Rachel coordinates and supervises outreach and direct services for survivors of both labor and sex trafficking, as well as supervising the coordination of the Triad Labor Trafficking Task Force, the Guilford Minor Trafficking Response Team, and the Triad Rapid Response Team to support victim identification and effective responses across Guilford, Forsyth and Davidson counties. We're so glad to welcome you to the show, Rachel.

Rachel [00:01:32] Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Sandie [00:01:35] I'm really excited to have this conversation today, Rachel. I think in recent days I've talked to so many victim service providers who were surprised when they learned from the survivors that they weren't looking for someone to rescue them. They didn't even know that anyone was looking for them. They didn't identify as a victim, and they often were a little concerned when people approached them that they might get in trouble or lose their job, all kinds of other things. So learning to do outreach to identify victims of labor trafficking is a little different than identifying victims of sex trafficking. And that might be one of the issues we need to be addressing to improve our record of identifying labor trafficking.

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dr. Corey Rood discuss what screening tools are, their prevalence in prevention and identification of human trafficking, and how diverse human trafficking screen tools are due to the complex nature of human trafficking and exploitation.

Corey Rood, MD Dr. Corey Rood is the Medical Director of Child Abuse Pediatrics with the Department of Pediatrics at UC Irvine, the CAST medical clinic, and the Child Abuse & Prevention Team at Miller Children’s and Women’s Hospital in Long Beach. He is an Assistant Professor of Pediatrics with the UC Irvine School of Medicine. As a Child Abuse Pediatrician, his work focuses on the diagnosis, care, and management of potentially abused and neglected children. Dr. Rood’s clinical and research interests and expertise include commercially sexually exploited children (CSEC) including human trafficking, both international and domestic. Dr. Rood’s research endeavors include recent studies on sexting and online sexual solicitation exposure amongst adolescents with suspected sexual abuse, and human trafficking screening of adolescent patients. Key Points

Screening tools are a set of questions to define a specific characteristic. There is no one screening tool for human trafficking since human trafficking is a complex issue that requires adjustments based on the target population. Validated screening tools should be developed with the target populations characteristics, such as age, language, and mental development. Screening should be viewed as a conversation starter that is culturally sensitive, trauma informed, and victim centered.

Resources

WestCoast Children's Clinic Commercial Sexual Exploitation Identification Tool (CSE-IT) Vera Institute of Justice Trafficking Victim Identification Tool (TVIT) EP. 169 - Dr. Jodi Quas: Communicating with Child Victims of Trauma EP. 216 - Wisdom from a Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner EP. 217 - What to Know When Talking to Child Trafficking Victims Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate program

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 259, Which Screening Tool Should I Use with Dr. Corey Rood.

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today Sandie, I'm so glad for us to be able to have an expert on the show who's going to help us to learn even more about looking at this through the lens of children. So many complex situations, of course, that emerge. And I'm so grateful for the experts that take their time to teach us. I'm pleased to introduce to you Dr. Corey Rood. He is a medical director of child abuse pediatrics with the Department of Pediatrics at the University of California, Irvine, the Cast Medical Clinic, and the Child Abuse and Prevention Team at Miller Children's and Women's Hospital in Long Beach, California. He is an assistant professor of pediatrics with the UC Irvine School of Medicine. As a child abuse pediatrician, his work focuses on the diagnosis, care and management of potentially abused and neglected children. His clinical and research interests and expertise include commercially sexually exploited children (CSEC), including human trafficking, both international and domestic. His research endeavors include recent studies on sexting and online sexual solicitation, exposure among adolescents with suspected sexual abuse,

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Dr. Sandra Morgan is joined by advocate, Elizabeth Smart to discuss the importance of teaching young children how to protect themself, safe boundaries, and how to know who to trust. They conclude the conversation with the topic of bystanders and how everyday people can play a role in protecting women, men, and children. Elizabeth Smart The abduction of Elizabeth Smart was one of the most followed child abduction cases of our time. Elizabeth was abducted from her home at the age of 14 on the night of June 5, 2002. For the next nine months, her captors controlled her by threatening to kill her and her family if she tried to escape. Fortunately, her grueling imprisonment ended on March 12, 2003, when an observant and courageous bystander took action, alerting the police and ultimately leading to her safe return to her family. Elizabeth triumphantly testified before her captors and the world about the very private nightmare she suffered during her abduction, which led to their convictions. Through this traumatic experience, Elizabeth has become an advocate for change related to child abduction, recovery programs, and national legislation. Elizabeth has helped promote the international AMBER Alert system, the Adam Walsh Child Protection & Safety Act and other safety legislation to help prevent abductions. She is the founder of the Elizabeth Smart Foundation, an organization dedicated to bringing hope and ending the victimization and exploitation of sexual assault through prevention, recovery, and advocacy. Key Points

Having conversations with your children when they are young about protecting themself in a dangerous situation. And to continue having those conversations so they practice, learn, and understand how to protect themselves. Adding "appease" to the fight, flight, freeze response paradigm and understanding that some people will go along with their captor/trafficker to appease them and to deter any threats of harm. Teaching children about personal boundaries, and as the adult, to validate those boundaries as okay and right. Bystanders play a pivotal role in protecting women, men, and children and preventing harm if they see something that does not appear right.

Resources

Elizabeth Smart Foundation Smart Defense - Elizabeth Smart Foundation National Human Trafficking Hotline - Call 888-3737-88 or Text 233733 Ensure Justice Conference

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Transcript David [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 258, Missing Children and the Overlap with Child Trafficking with Elizabeth Smart.

Production Credits [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

David [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

David [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, one of the things that I have been so grateful for over the years of being involved with you and the show and the Global Center for Women and Justice is just the wonderful connections and opportunities to coordinate with so many other leaders in the space. And today, absolutely, what a privilege we have to talk to someone who's very much a leader, not only in her work, but also through her own lived experience. I'm so glad to introduce to you Elizabeth Smart. The abduction of Elizabeth was one of the most followed child abduction cases of our time. She was abducted from her home at the age of 14 on the night of June 5th, 2002. For the next nine months, her captors controlled her by threatening to kill her and her family if she tried to escape. Fortunately,

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In this episode of the podcast, Sandie Morgan and Wendi Copeland, Chief Strategic Partnership Activation Officer, discuss how the mission of Goodwill is not just as a second-hand store, but to provide opportunities to people and help them thrive. The take a deep dive into what a human-centered framework is and how it can be useful for trafficking survivor reintegration efforts. Wendi Copeland

Wendi Copeland invests her people and business systems skills in developing strategy to sustainably respond to community needs...so everyone has the opportunity to thrive. As Goodwill Industries International’s Chief Strategic Partnership Activation Officer, she leads professionals who leverage relationships and resources to advance Goodwill’s life changing mission and social enterprises while fueling systems change. Her team’s portfolio includes partner engagement, government relations, resource development and philanthropy. Over her 30+ year workforce development career, Copeland has led rapid growth of business and mission lines in three non-profits. She serves on numerous national advisory and work groups that focus on equitable credentialing, career advancement, incumbent worker upskilling, and economic mobility. Key Points

The founding of Goodwill started with providing resources and dignity to people and the community. A human-centered design is one where the assets and resources are brought to the individual to help them thrive. A human-centered design is a multidimensional supportive ecosystem. Survivor reintegration efforts can be impactful when designed around each individual and structured to help them thrive where it is needed.

Resources

Goodwill Industries International, Inc. Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force Indeed Human Trafficking Hotline: Call 888-3737-888 or Text "HELP" or "INFO" to BeFree

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 257, The Role of Social Enterprise in Prevention and Intervention, with Wendi Copeland.

Production Credits [00:00:12] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:32] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:40] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, we have been at it for over a decade on the podcast. And one of the things that I treasure so much of this show is being able to have really insightful conversations with experts who not only have so much wisdom for us, but also share the heart for ending human trafficking. And today, I'm so pleased that we have an expert in Wendi Copeland, who I know is going to help us to illuminate more and help us to think about this from a standpoint of social enterprise. I'm so pleased to introduce Wendi Copeland to you. She invests in people and business systems and developing a strategy to sustainably respond to community needs so everyone has the opportunity to thrive. As Goodwill Industries International Chief Strategic Partnership Activation Officer, she leads professionals who leverage relationships and resources to advance Goodwill's life changing mission and social enterprises while fueling systems change. Her team's portfolio includes partner engagement, government relations, resource development, and philanthropy. Over her 30-year workforce development career, Wendi has led rapid growth of business admission lines at three nonprofits. She serves on numerous national advisory and work groups that focus on equitable credentialing, career advancement,

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Alan Smyth, Executive Director of Saving Innocence, discuss his newly released book, Men! Fight for Me: The Role of Authentic Masculinity. Together, they go in detail into the four pillars of authentic masculinity and the significance of men's role in the fight against human trafficking. Alan Smyth With over 25 years of nonprofit management and experience, Alan Smyth joins the team to cultivate strategic partnership on behalf of Saving Innocence reporting directly to CEO and Founder Kim Biddle. Most recently, he served for 14 years as the Regional Director for Young Life in the Greater Los Angeles Region and before that he was an Area Director for Young Life in San Francisco Bay for 11 years. During his tenure, Alan was responsible to fundraise for and oversee an overall annual operating budget of 4 million dollars as he led a charge to expand work into South LA. His responsibilities included recruiting, hiring, training & supervising staff as well as volunteers. Additionally, Alan executed hundreds fundraising events, strategic planning activities and developed marketing strategies that proved successful for Young Life in Los Angeles. Alan got his Bachelor of Communication Studies from San Jose State University. Key Points

Men with authentic masculinity can play a significant role in fighting human trafficking. Building healthy masculinity begins at a young age. Men are part of the problem, and therefore must be part of the solution. There are four pillars of genuine masculinity:

Accepts responsibility; Leads courageously; A life of service; Who he is is more important than what he does.

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Resources

Saving Innocence Men! Fight for Me: The Role of Authentic Masculinity EP. 196 - Rachel Thomas: Ending the Game EP. 173 - Harmony Dust talks about Survivor Leadership EP. 234 - Relentless Advocate: Rebecca Bender Ensure Justice Conference - Save the Date: March 4-5, 2022

Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 256, Men! Fight For Me, with Alan Smyth.

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, today, another guest with us who has just doing some incredible work on supporting all of our efforts to end human trafficking. I'm so glad to welcome Alan Smyth to our show today. He serves as the Executive Director for Saving Innocence, an anti-human trafficking community-based organization focused on the recovery and restoration of child victims of sex trafficking. Alan is the co-author with Jessica Midciff of Men! Fight for Me: The Role of Authentic Masculinity. Alan, we're so glad to have you with us today.

Alan [00:01:23] Oh, great. It's an honor to be here. Thanks for having me.

Sandie [00:01:26] Alan, I actually was on my phone and saw the live reel that you did with Saving Innocence when your book was released. And I was so excited, I immediately downloaded it on Kindle and reached out to you. I was also wanted to mention to our listeners that the forward is written by Ambassador John Cotton Richmond, who served as ambassador until this last year. So, welcome from me. I want to start this conversation with what attracted me to this book. The concept of authentic masculinity in the fight against human trafficking. What brought that concept into your sphere of passion?

Alan [00:02:31] Yeah,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dr. Brenda Navarrete discuss the importance of building resilience in children as it can play a key role in prevention. They consider the characteristics that can be built in kids as protective factors to the challenging and difficult environments they face and how resilience can be taught at any age. Brenda Navarrete, PhD

Dr. Navarrete provides therapeutic services and educational workshops at Alabaster Jar Project, a drop-in resource center and long-term residential program for women who have survived human trafficking and sexual exploitation in San Diego County. She serves as an adjunct faculty member at the Global Center for Women and Justice at Vanguard University for their Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate. She earned her PhD in Clinical Psychology with an emphasis in Culture and Diversity Studies from Loma Linda University. Dr. Navarrete’s clinical and training background includes assessment, evaluation, and therapeutic services in hospital, community mental health, residential, and juvenile detention settings. She served as the Director of Clinical Training at Argosy University and has taught graduate psychology at various universities in Southern California. She has promoted mental health awareness and facilitated program development for her local community and internationally in Rwanda and Honduras. Dr. Navarrete served as the former president of the Inland Psychological Association. Her research interests include social justice, human trafficking, gender equality and the academic achievement of at-risk youth. She has presented her research at professional conferences both locally and abroad. Key Points

Resilience is what allows children to bounce back when faced with difficult situations and environments. Resilience in children can be a key protective factor in human trafficking. Children and adults can be taught resilience at any stage in their life. Parents, teachers, and individuals in children's lives all play a role in building resilience in the youth around them. Some of the key characteristics of resilience discussed are: unconditional love, high expectations, competence, tenacity, connection, and coping.

Resources

Alabaster Jar Project Smart Mama’s, Safe Kids – Parent Training Ensure Justice Conference – March 4-5, 2022 Coping Strategies - PPT from Parent Training Presentation The Predictive 6-Factor Resilience Scale: Neurobiological Fundamentals and Organizational Applications (Rossouw, P. & Rossouw, J., 2016) Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate

Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 255, The Role of Resilience in Prevention with Dr. Brenda Navarrete.

Production Credits [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, always a pleasure to be with you. And today I'm so glad to welcome to the show another member of our team here at Vanguard University, part of our instruction team. So glad to introduce to you Dr. Brenda Navarrete. She provides therapeutic services and educational workshops at Alabaster Jar Project, a drop-in resource center and long-term residential program for women who have survived human trafficking and sexual exploitation in San Diego County. She also serves as an adjunct faculty member at the Global Center for Women and Justice here at Vanguard University and has taught graduate psychology at various universities in Southern California. Her clinical background includes assessment, evaluation, and therapeutic services in hospital community mental health, residential and juvenile detention settings. Brenda,

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Sandie Morgan and Derek Marsh discuss how anti-trafficking efforts can be adjusted to increase the focus on labor trafficking and how the five P model works strictly related to labor trafficking. They go into depth on being victim-centered and trauma-informed when working with labor trafficking victims and how sex trafficking efforts relate to labor trafficking efforts. Derek Marsh, MA, MPA

Derek Marsh retired from the Westminster PD, CA, after more than 26 years of service. In 2004, Marsh helped start the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force (OCHTTF). He served as the co-chair of the OCHFFT from 2004-12. During that time, he developed and taught courses in human trafficking across the state of California, provided oversight to human trafficking investigations, assisted in creating human trafficking DVDs, wrote multiple grants, and provided Congressional testimony twice as a human trafficking expert witness. He has presented anti-human trafficking trainings across California and the United States, Saipan, Italy, and Argentina. He has taught human trafficking undergraduate courses at Vanguard University from 2009 to present. He has served with the United Nations to train Rwandan immigration officials, law enforcement, prosecutors, and NGOs over four intensive seminars in 2017. Currently, Derek Marsh works as the Assistant Director at the Global Center for Women and Justice. He is researching how human trafficking task forces identify, investigate, and prosecute labor trafficking cases throughout the United States through on-site visits and review of historical task force and federal performance documents. He is helping to develop and provide training and technical assistance through the BIA, TTAC, and OVC-TTAC agencies. His expertise in Criminal Justice will contribute to the research, education, and advocacy mission of the Global Center for Women and Justice. Keypoints

Most task forces that are grant-funded are structured similarly, however, day-to-day expressions of their efforts are predominantly through the lens of sex trafficking. Both sex trafficking and labor trafficking require a victim-centered and trauma-informed approach due to the trauma experienced. In order to fill the gap on labor trafficking requires sharing and developing multi-agency and multidisciplinary expertise and resources.

Resources

Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate Enhanced Collaborative Model (ECM) The Five P Model

Prevention Protection Prosecution Partnership Policy

Tulare County Human Trafficking Task Force Ep. 187 - Why Is Labor Trafficking So Hard To Find? - Rena Shahandeh and Anh Truong National Human Trafficking Hotline Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force T-Visas for victims of human trafficking Ensure Justice Conference - March 4-5, 2022

Transcript Dave Stachowiak [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, this is episode number 254, How to Think About Labor Trafficking in the Five P Model with Derek Marsh.

Production Credits [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:32] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie Morgan [00:00:38] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:41] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today, we're going to be looking at our conversation through the lens of labor trafficking. And Sandie, we have a guest with us today who's a very close friend and collaborator with us, of course, and a many time pass guest, Derek Marsh. I'm so glad for us to have him back.

Sandie Morgan [00:01:06] Hey, Derek, it's good to have you here. Derek, for those of our listeners who aren't up to speed is the Associate Director of the Global Center for Women and Justice. So, Derek, can you give us, first,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan, Dr. Bonni Stackowiak, and Prof. Warren Doody discuss the importance of overlapping networks as a method for pursuing interdisciplinary work. Together, they discuss Dr. Elizabeth Dermody Leonard, a significant mentor in all their professionals and personal lives, who encouraged and pushed them all to think and work outside their traditional academic and professional realms. Bonni Stackowiak

Dr. Bonni Stachowiak is the Dean of Teaching and Learning at Vanguard University of Southern California. She’s also an Associate Professor of Business and Management and teaches a couple times a year in an Educational Leadership doctoral program. She’s been teaching in-person, blended, and online courses throughout her entire career in higher education. Bonni gets the privilege of speaking with exceptional educators on a weekly basis, as the host of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast. Since 2014, her podcast has provided a space to explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. Teaching in Higher Ed also explores how to improve our productivity, so faculty can have more peace in our lives, and be even more present for our students. Bonni and her husband, Dave, are parents to two curious kids, who regularly shape their perspectives on teaching and learning. Warren Doody

Warren Doody is the Associate Dean of the Division of Education, Arts and Humanities, and he is also the current Chair of the English department. As Professor of English, his range of classes runs from Shakespeare to American Literature to a variety of creative writing courses – Travel Writing, Playwriting and the Short Story. In his spare time, he is a working playwright, and his original scripts include Life Without Parole, Development, and Enlightenment.com. His most recent effort, Angels in Disguise, received its World Premiere in December 2019. His plays have received productions in New York, Los Angeles, and Canada, and throughout the United States. Key Points

Dr. Sandie Morgan and her guests discuss the value of interdisciplinary studies that bring a variety of disciplines to social justice issues. Each of the speakers reflect on what happens when we are inspired and when we walk into someone else's realm of specialty. Overlapping networks are a source of studies that point us in new directions of research, teaching, and more.

Resources

Teaching in Higher Ed Podcast Ep. 205 - Influence Through Overlapping Networks Coaching for Leaders Podcast, Ep. 422 - Influence Through Overlapping Networks Convicted Survivors: The Imprisonment of Battered Women Who Kill by Dr. Elizabeth Dermody Leonard Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate

Transcript Dave Stachowiak 0:00

You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 253, Overlapping Networks with Podcasts, Performing Arts, and Professors.

Production Credits 0:11

Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave Stachowiak 0:32

Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandra Morgan 0:38

And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave Stachowiak 0:41

And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, as we have talked about on the show before, you are really an expert at overlapping networks and helping different folks, different organizations, and all kinds of networks to come together. It's one of the things that I just think you're so brilliant at. And one of the places where we have overlapping networks, both you and I, is my wife, Bonni Stackowiak, and she has a podcast called Teaching in Higher Ed, which helps faculty at universities to continue to improve their teaching skills, stay centered on student learning, and help them to really build and enhance their own personal productivity. And actually,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Kathy McGibbon Givens discuss how to get "unstuck" in survivor aftercare. They consider the language we use, aftercare programs, and holistic approaches when serving survivors on their journey to become unstuck. Kathy McGibbon Givens Kathy McGibbon Givens is a wife, mother, author, and playwright who has overcome the dark world of sex-trafficking. Kathy’s goal is to raise awareness, fight for those who are being trafficked, and mentor those who have overcome it. She is now Co-Founder and Executive Director of Twelve 11 Partners and in 2021, she was appointed to be a member of the U.S. Advisory Council on Human Trafficking. Key Points

Kathy explains her use of "overcomer" as opposed to "survivor" as a term to denote how she herself overcame her past and is now thriving. The cycle of toxicity in human trafficking is not easily broken and requires knowledge of the obstacles survivors face. Survivors are crucial in the first step to becoming unstuck. Successful mentor and support groups require survivor leaders input, as well as mentorship for the survivors and other mentors.

Resources

Kathy McGibbon Givens – Full Bio Twelve 11 Partners Ensure Justice 2022 Conference - March 4-5, 2022

Transcript Dave Stachowiak 0:03 You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 252, What It Takes to Get Unstuck with Kathy McGibbon Givens.

Production Credits 0:10 Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave Stachowiak 0:31 Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandra Morgan 0:37 And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave Stachowiak 0:39 And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, we are always working together with partners and we of course are helping all of us in this work to get unstuck. Today's guest is going to really help us to do that. I am so glad to welcome Kathy McGibbon Givens to the show. She is a wife, mother, author, and playwright who has overcome the dark world of sex trafficking. Kathy's goal is to raise awareness, fight for those who are being trafficked, and mentor those who have overcome it. She is now Co-Founder and Executive Director of Twelve 11 Partners. And in 2021, she was appointed to be a member of the U.S. Advisory Council on Human Trafficking by presidential appointment. Kathy, we're so glad to welcome you to Ending Human Trafficking.

Kathy McGibbon Givens 1:34 I'm so glad to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

Sandra Morgan 1:38 Kathy, we haven't got to be in the same room yet, but you were a speaker at Ensure Justice just a few months ago here at Vanguard. And there were rave reviews. Everyone felt so empowered by your workshop and your panel presentation during the plenary. So, thank you so much.

Kathy McGibbon Givens 2:01 That was a wonderful time. I thank you for having me. I keep thinking about that event. And that is definitely one of the highlights. Thank you so much for that platform.

Sandra Morgan 2:10 Well, and my husband attended your workshop. He's a faithful attendee at Ensure Justice. And he's a pastor. So he's been hearing about how churches should respond for many years. And he loved hearing you use the term overcomer as opposed to victim or survivor. Can you tell us why that's important and what it takes to be an overcomer?

Kathy McGibbon Givens 2:39 Absolutely. So, in my own journey of restoration, when I first came out of the life, and when I first understood what trafficking was, I still felt, I still took on a lot of that blame, I still felt like a victim. So it was very hard for me to even say that I was a survivor because I still felt that shame associated with that lifestyle. And so, the more I started sharing, and my healing journey continued, I said, 'Okay, well, I'm a survivor,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss policy and its significant role for faith-based organizations in combatting human trafficking. Dr. Morgan explains how policies maintain the expectations of staff and volunteers and protect the mission of the organization. Key Notes

Dr. Sandie Morgan is writing a book, in collaboration with fellow authors and activists Kim Yim and Shayne Moore, on anti-human trafficking for church leaders that's coming out Winter 21-22. The 3P Paradigm has been expanded to 5 Ps: Prevention, Protection, Prosecution, Partnership, and Policy. Policies are designed to serve leaders, staff, and the volunteers of an organization. Organizational policies serve three goals:

Policies create process and develop patterns of ethical best practice.

Policies operationalize your value for human dignity. Policies build in accountability.

Resources

Enhanced Collaborative Model: The 5 Ps - GCWJ EHT Ep. 250 - How to Work with Law Enforcement, with Dr. Stephany Powell Live2free - Student Mobilization Group EHT Ep. 226 - Media Ethics: Where Do You Draw the Line? EHT Ep. 233 - Bella Hounakey: A Fierce Survivor Advocate Ensure Justice 2022 Conference - March 4-5, 2022

Transcript Dave Stachowiak [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 251, How to Build an Anti-Human Trafficking Policy for your Faith-Based Organization.

Production Credits [00:00:12] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:33] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie Morgan [00:00:38] My name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave Stachowiak [00:00:41] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, believe it or not, we have been going over 10 years now on the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. What a privilege it has been to work with you and share the microphone with you this whole time. I have learned so much and there's so much more to learn. And in fact, you're writing a book, aren't you?

Sandie Morgan [00:01:08] I am. My friends and I decided we needed to put together a handbook for Christian leaders on ending human trafficking. And they convinced me that between the three of us, we could get it done. Because you know me, I've got six things going on at the Global Center for Women and Justice, and so I thought: 'when I retire, I'll write a book.' But, we did it by collaboration--and you know how much I love collaboration. And it is now at the publisher--the manuscript--and they've shown us cover samples, and it's really going to happen.

Dave Stachowiak [00:01:51] Wow. Cool. Well, today is going to be the first of probably a number of conversations that we're going to have in the future on this topic. And of course, as you'd expect, the topic is going to be on ending human trafficking in a faith-based organization. And so today, maybe a bit of an introduction to this so that we can really support those who are in our listening community of beginning to think about this from a faith-based standpoint. And Sandie, as we talk about so often, with the importance of partnership in so many venues, law enforcement, like we talked about last time; government, as we often talk about on the show, having government leaders on; and of course, the faith-based community is such an important partner in the work we're doing, aren't they?

Sandie Morgan [00:02:37] Absolutely. Absolutely. And over the years, I love thinking about this, this is our our 10th anniversary. We need to have a party. Wait, I have to get my last vaccine first and then we can have a party. So we started out with just three P's: Prevention, Protection, and Prosecution. Right. And then we added Partnership, and then we added Policy. And I want to talk about policy today with regard to our faith-based partners.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dr. Stephany Powell discuss the role law enforcement plays in the fight against human trafficking. They consider the relationship between law enforcement and nonprofits and how to best support and serve victims. Dr. Powell and Dr. Morgan discuss the future of the anti-human trafficking movement and how it can evolve to better combat exploitation.

Dr. Stephany Powell

Dr. Stephany Powell retired from the Los Angeles Police Department as a Sergeant in charge of a Vice unit. Dr. Stephany Powell's unique insight into the world of sexual exploitation and trafficking gained through her thirty years with the Los Angeles Police Department has made Dr. Powell an unparalleled choice to lead Journey Out in 2013 (formerly known as the Mary Magdalene Project). Journey Out assists victims of human trafficking in finding their way out of violence and abuse, due to sexual exploitation or forced prostitution. In 2020, she joined the National Center on Sexual Exploitation (NCOSE) as the Director of Law Enforcement Training and Survivor Services. She is also the law enforcement human trafficking training consultant for Selah Way Foundation. Key Points

Dr. Stephany Powell trains law enforcement officers on the ins and outs of human trafficking. She shares stories of times she missed signs of human trafficking and wishes she had known better. Now, she educates officers, so they can detect signs and help victims.

When law enforcement works with non-profits, victims can receive the well-rounded support that they need, which builds trust between survivors and non-profits.

According to a study done by ASU, out of all first responders, firefighters are the most likely to be the first point of contact of someone who is in captivity.

In order to combat demand for human trafficking, we must enforce consequences on those that are creating the demand and treating human begins as a commodity.

Resources

Journey Out

Selah Way Foundation

Stephany Powell Linked In

My Choice, My Body, .......My Rules: A Workbook in Prevention

National Center on Sexual Exploitation (NCOSE)

Are you enjoying the show? Give us some feedback! Leave a comment and tell us what thought. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to subscribe or rate the podcast on iTunes by clicking here. Click here for FAQs about podcasts and how to subscribe. Haven’t been receiving our newsletter? Visit our homepage to join today. Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org.

Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, this is episode number 250, How to Work With Law Enforcement, with Dr. Stephany Powell.

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innervate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak

Sandie [00:00:36] and my name is Sandie Morgan,

Dave [00:00:39] and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie today's conversation I'm really looking forward to because we have with us an expert who's going to really help us to discover the practical ways to work with law enforcement as we talk about, often on the show, the importance of partnerships across organizations, across agencies and, of course, law enforcement. Such a critical partner in all the work we are doing to end human trafficking. I'm so pleased to welcome to our show today. Dr. Stephany Powell. Stephany retired from the Los Angeles Police Department as a sergeant in charge of a Vice unit. Her unique insight into the world of sexual exploitation and trafficking, gained through her 30 years with the Los Angeles Police Department, made her an unparalleled choice to lead Journey Out in 2013, formerly known as the Mary Magdalene Project.

My Choice, My Body............ My Rules: A Workbook In Prevention

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Amy Rahe, Freedom Fund Director of North America, discuss the global anti-slavery organization Freedom Fund and their role in anti-human trafficking. They speak on the importance of organizations being survivor-informed and what that looks like in practice. Amy Rahe

Amy Rahe is a leading voice on the need for survivors to be included in more meaningful ways within the anti-slavery movement through avenues such as employment and leadership. She joined the Freedom Fund in 2020 as Director of North America, managing major partnerships and engagements, and is active as part of the global management team. Amy is a passionate advocate for sustained liberation pointing to the need for long-term support to survivors and working to dismantle the root causes that allow modern-day slavery to flourish. She describes herself as a storyteller, catalyst, and connection maker. Key Points

The Freedom Fund is a global anti-slavery organization, that identifies and invests in the most impactful frontline organizations in areas with the highest prevalence of exploitation (both sex and labor trafficking).

The Freedom Fund invests in these organizations with funding from donors interested in directly supporting communities most impacted by modern slavery and with support in scaling these organizations and networking with one another to have an even deeper impact.

Being survivor-informed means being survivor-led. We need to make room for survivors in the fight against human trafficking.

A survivor may have many opportunities to better themselves; however, if we do not provide access, they are still going to be stuck in the same place.

Survivors are very much capable of leading and working in the anti-trafficking space, we just need to provide them access to the opportunities.

Resources

Freedom Fund

The Praxis Project

Amy Rahe's Journey to the Freedom Fund

"Girls Like Us" by Rachel Lloyd

Survivor Alliance

Survivor Alliance Allies Training

Survivor Alliance list of Ally Actions

Survivor Engagement Resources

How to Ensure Survivors of Modern Slavery Stay Free by Amy Rahe

Unlocking what works: How community-based interventions are ending bonded labor in India by Freedom Fund

Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, this is episode number 249, How to Include Survivors with Amy Rahe

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak

Sandie [00:00:36] and my name is Sandie Morgan,

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, today, again, we have another friend and partner with us to help us to continue to get better at not only ending human trafficking but also serving those who are affected by it. I'm so glad to welcome to the show today. Amy Rahe. She is a leading voice on the need for survivors to be included in more meaningful ways within the antislavery movement through avenues such as employment and leadership. She joined the Freedom Fund in 2020 as director of North America, managing major partnerships and engagements and is an active part of the global management team. Amy is a passionate advocate for sustained liberation, pointing to the need for long-term support to survivors and working to dismantle th...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Melissa Gomez, Project Director of PACT, discuss many of the different facets of child trafficking. Melissa Gomez explains the goals and purpose of the organization PACT and their role in the fight against human trafficking. They explain the different aspects of labor trafficking and go over the red flags and signs of human trafficking. Melissa Gomez

Melissa Gomez has contributed 20 years of service to the anti-trafficking movement. Her international and local leadership has been instrumental in establishing multi-disciplinary coalitions and in coordinating comprehensive care to survivors of both labor and sex trafficking in Europe and the Central Valley, California. As the Chair of the Central Valley Freedom Coalition and Program Manager of Fresno’s Central Valley Against Human Trafficking, she contracted with partnering agencies to provide services throughout six central valley counties. Additionally, she acted as regional liaison to facilitate 24-7 trauma response in partnership with Polaris’ National Human Trafficking Hotline. Melissa is dedicated to the advancement and integration of diverse voices to pioneer systemic change and co-create pathways of empowerment. Ms. Gomez is currently the acting Director of the Preventing and Addressing Child Trafficking Project for the Child and Family Policy Institute of California, in conjunction with the California Department of Social Services facilitating a statewide model of cross-coordination to strengthen child trafficking programs within child welfare agencies in California. The project serves to improve outcomes and services to children and youth who are impacted by sex and/or labor trafficking. Melissa resides in Marina on the Central Coast of California and is the proud mother of two amazing and creative boys.

Key Points

Preventing and Addressing Child Trafficking (PACT), preventing and addressing child trafficking, was established in 2014, in relation to the Preventing Sex Trafficking and Strengthening Families Act.

PACT's main goal is to address systemic issues concerning child welfare, the most effective strategy to fighting against these issues being collaboration.

PACT connects people, which connects resources to places they need to be to fight this battle.

There are forms of legal child labor; such as, a child 14 years old or older getting compensation for their work and working in an environment that is not harmful to their development. Any type of child labor that falls out of that definition is child exploitation and illegal.

Labor trafficking is still widely underreported and misunderstood.

According to the National Human Trafficking Hotline, in 38% of cases involving trafficked minors, the minor was trafficked by a family member or foster family.

It's very important for everyone in the community to know the signs of human trafficking and look for them.

Resources

What is PACT?

Child and Family Policy Institute of California

CSEC

EHT Ep. 73 – Hidden Girl: The True Story of a Modern Child Slave – A Conversation With Shyima Hall

HTIAM-14 Human Trafficking Identification Questionnaire

233 – Bella Hounakey: A Fierce Survivor Advocate

PACT's Child Welfare Response to Child Labor Trafficking in California is a research brief and accompanying Child Labor Trafficking Online Toolkit, which highlights a case study of ten child welfare agencies participating in the Preventing and Addressing Child Trafficking Project and their efforts to implement a comprehensive approach to child trafficking.

Child Labor Trafficking Desk Guide - Basic Awareness Guide for Child Welfare, Probation, and Partners.

Identifying and Responding to Child Labor Trafficking - Red Flags/Indicator Tool

California Service Provider Matrix

Covenant House HTIAM-14 Assessment - Validated Screening/Assessment Tool for Older Youth

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Ben Skinner discuss the nonprofit Transparentem. Ben describes the role Transparentem plays in combating human trafficking and creating better opportunities for those being exploited. They discuss the standards that must be put in place to combat labor abuse in global supply chains. Ben Skinner

Ben Skinner is the Founder & Principal of Transparentem, a non-profit organization whose mission is to advance the well-being of workers and communities by exposing hard truths to those with the power to transform industries. Previously, as a journalist, he reported on diverse topics from five continents for Time, Newsweek International, Travel + Leisure, and others. His first book, A Crime So Monstrous, was awarded the 2009 Dayton Literary Peace Prize for nonfiction, as well as a citation from the Overseas Press Club in its book category for 2008. He was named an Adventurer of the Year 2008 by National Geographic Adventure.

Key Points

Transparentem adheres to the highest ethical standards of investigative journalism. They seek to document and expose hard truths while doing no harm in the process. Transparentem investigates evidence of endemic problems that affect the health and welfare of a substantial number of workers and communities, including human trafficking and other forms of forced labor. Once documented, they bring their findings to the attention of companies with the leverage to address the problems, not only with their own supplier groups but also with the industry as a whole. Holding companies accountable for their actions is very important but pressuring companies to cut ties with worksites where evidence of abuses are found too often leaves workers in worse places. When signs of child labor or forced labor are found, Transparentem provides detailed reports to involved companies and engages with companies on remediation, providing recommendations on best practices to address these issues. Many individuals that find themselves in an environment with forced labor were originally promised good jobs with fair pay. Transparentem works with companies in an effort to fix the jobs to be more in line with those that were promised to workers and to create good opportunities for those that are being exploited.

Resouces

Transparentem Website

Sweat and Toil App

A Crime So Monstrous

Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast; this is episode number 247 Perspectives on Transformation in Labor Trafficking with Ben Skinner.

Production Credits [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking, Sandie. Today we have with us someone who is an expert voice on human trafficking. They are going to help us in so many ways with perspective. And I'm really excited about this conversation. I'm so pleased to welcome Ben Skinner to our show today. He is the founder and principal of Transparentem to a nonprofit organization whose mission is to advance the well-being of workers and communities by exposing hard truths to those in power to transform industries. Previously, as a journalist, he reported on diverse topics from five continents, four Time, Newsweek,

A Crime So Monstrous: Face-to-Face with Modern-Day Slavery

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and author Vicki Reed breakdown the fiction book The Car Thief: A Boy's Perilous Journey Through the Juvenile Justice System. They discuss the plot of this story and how it reflects real-life situations; as well as, how this story is a great educational resource. Vicki Reed

With a degree in Law Enforcement, a Master's in Criminal Justice, and decades spent working in the child welfare and juvenile justice field, she is able to take readers behind the closed doors of a system the public seldom sees. She began her career as line staff in a juvenile detention center before moving to a job as a juvenile court probation officer. In her mid-twenties, she landed the position of director of a private youth-serving agency that operated a group home for status (runaways/truants) and public offender youth. While in this capacity, she obtained funding and housing to open a shelter facility for public offender boys who would otherwise have been placed in secure detention. Eventually, she moved into the Kentucky state government and helped develop a training curriculum for all of the state’s child welfare workers and community juvenile staff. A sought-after speaker, Vicki presented at numerous state and national conferences on juvenile justice and wrote a monthly article for the Kentucky Educational Collaborative for State Agency Children (KECSAC), dealing with behavior management of difficult youth in school settings. Key Points

Vicki Reed is the author of the book The Car Thief, a fiction story about a child going through the juvenile justice system.

This story follows the main character, a kid named Kelly, on his journey through foster homes, courtrooms, and dealing with trauma.

This book has become a resource to educate people on the various topics and themes throughout the story.

Resources

Vicki Reed's Website

Buy The Car Thief

The Car Thief Reviews

Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast; this is episode number 246: Why You Should Read The Car Thief.

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking, Sandie. Today we have a conversation with someone that's a little different than we normally do. And yet I'm really excited for this conversation to discover more. Aren't you?

Sandie [00:00:56] Oh, I can't wait.

Dave [00:00:58] I am so glad to welcome Vicki Reed to our show. Vicki, after earning her bachelor's degree in law enforcement and master's degree in criminal justice, immersed herself in a successful, decades-long career in juvenile justice. She's a sought-after speaker and is currently executive director of the Kentucky Juvenile Justice Initiative in Lexington, where she lives with her husband and son. And she's also an author of a book. Vicki, we're so glad to welcome you to the show.

Vicki [00:01:29] Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here and I love the good work that you all do.

Sandie [00:01:34] Well, Vicki, we met at a conference for kids, and I knew right away we were kindred spirits. And you sent me your book, A Car Thief, and I read it in one weekend. And as I was reading it and Dave,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Katherine Chon, OTIP Director, discuss the Office on Trafficking in Persons and their recent activities. They consider how OTIP's mission statement and goals are aligning with current projects. They also explain the importance of data collection and the exchange of information in the fight to end human trafficking.

Katherine Chon

Katherine Chon is the founding director of the Office on Trafficking in Persons (OTIP) and senior advisor on human trafficking at the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). OTIP is part of the HHS Administration for Children and Families, responsible for developing strategies and implementing programs to prevent trafficking, increase victim identification and access to services, and strengthen the health and well-being of survivors. OTIP also collaborates with government and non-government partners to raise public awareness, identify research priorities, and inform policy recommendations to strengthen the Nation’s public health response to human trafficking. As the director, Katherine leads the office and determines certification and eligibility for survivors of human trafficking who may be eligible for refugee benefits and services.

She is the federal executive officer of the National Advisory Committee on the Sex Trafficking of Children and Youth in the U.S. As senior advisor, Katherine serves on multiple committees under the Senior Policy Operating Group of the President’s Interagency Task Force to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons. She serves on other related federal inter-agency working groups on violence against women, child exploitation, and Native American affairs. Prior to her government service in 2012, Katherine was the co-founder and President of Polaris, establishing the global organization’s innovative programs to assist survivors of human trafficking, expand anti-trafficking policies, and fundamentally change the way local communities respond to modern slavery. Katherine received a Master of Public Administration from Harvard Kennedy School, a Bachelor of Science in Psychology from Brown University, and a certificate in Executive Nonprofit Leadership from the Stanford Graduate School of Business. Key Points

The Office on Trafficking in Persons (OTIP) fights against human trafficking in a unique way. They look at the issues impacting every aspect of human trafficking and attack many issues at the same time. They develop strategies and implement programs to prevent human trafficking, increase victim identification and access to services, and strengthen the health and well-being of survivors.

OTIP is creating a national human trafficking prevention framework and prevention action plan in order to connect efforts to combat human trafficking. They partnered with the CDC and other researchers to strengthen their prevention efforts. OTIP has created a huge emphasis on data collection. They are working on creating uniform data standards with the potential for interoperability between government departments. Meaning they are in the process of creating systems that streamline information collection, decrease the burden for the public, increase data security and create opportunities for systems to work together. This also allows for more efficient collaboration efforts.

Resources

Office on Trafficking in Persons

HHS Anti-Trafficking Efforts Highlighted in 2020 National Action Plan to Combat Human Trafficking

Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Traffickin...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Deputy Executive Assistant Commissioner Cynthia Whittenburg examine the role U.S. Customs and Border Protection plays in combating Labor Trafficking. They discuss the authority the CBP has and what that looks like when it's put into action. The impact of their actions are analyzed from a global perspective. Steps that can be taken to educate about the issues of labor trafficking and inform businesses about best practices are outlined. Cynthia Whittenburg

Cynthia Whittenburg was appointed Deputy Executive Assistant Commissioner, Office of Trade, in 2016, charged with overseeing one of the most important aspects of U.S. Customs and Border Protection’s (CBP) complex mission: facilitating lawful trade while protecting our supply chain to support our nation’s economic growth and security. Under her leadership, CBP addresses many of the complex challenges in today’s trade environment including e-commerce, forced labor, unfair trade practices, and regulatory reform. Ms. Whittenburg’s civil service career began with the U.S. Customs Service at the Port of New Orleans as an import specialist 32 years ago while serving in a parallel career as a commissioned U.S. Army Reservist. Ms. Whittenburg is a graduate of Dillard University with a Bachelor’s Degree in Computer Science/Business and has earned a Master’s Degree in Public Administration from Georgia Southern University. Additionally, she graduated from the Department of Homeland Security Senior Executive Service Candidate Development Program in 2013 and the Senior Managers in Government course at Harvard Kennedy School of Government in 2016. Key Points

U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) has a large role in the fight to end human trafficking that most people are unaware of. CBP has the authority to stop goods from coming into the U.S. that have been produced with forced labor.

The Trade Facilitation and Trade Enforcement Act was passed in 2016 which gave CBP more authority to detain shipments coming into the U.S. that are made wholly or in part with forced labor.

When businesses use forced labor they are upsetting the economic competitiveness of American business, and negatively impacts other businesses' abilities to compete in a fair and competitive manner.

There are many resources available to the public to see which companies and products have been in contact with forced labor. These websites and reports also give readers the ability to see what regions in the world are high in labor trafficking; in order to, avoid buying products from those areas that have the potential to be tainted with human trafficking.

Resources

Customs and Border Protection

Trafficking in Persons Report

Department of Labor

EnsureJustice.com ILO Indicators of Forced Labor CBP Withhold Release Orders and Findings CBP Issues Detention Order on Cotton Products Originating from XPCC Department of Labor Comply Chain App Department of Labor List of Goods Produced by Child Labor or Forced Labor Department of State Trafficking in Persons Report July 2020 Xinjiang Business Advisory

Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, this is episode number 244: The Role of Customs and Border Protection in Disrupting Supply Chain Forced Labor, and Why it Matters to All of Us.

Production Credits [00:00:13] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:34] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Rachel Goble discuss the purpose and beliefs of the organization The Freedom Story. Prevention is at the forefront of every action The Freedom Story takes. They mainly operate in Thailand where they work to protect children and prevent vulnerable people from falling victim to human trafficking. Rachel Goble

Rachel Goble grew up in an interconnected and multicultural world. Whether traveling to Central America with her family to survey land for the founding of a non-profit or trudging through the Sierra Nevadas as her parents sought to awaken Christians to our role as creation’s caretakers, Rachel learned early that the world’s peoples and problems are connected and that we must all help in overcoming them. Rachel co-founded The Freedom Story to prevent child trafficking in Northern Thailand through education, resources and mentorship. After developing close relationships with the children The Freedom Story serves, Rachel founded Ethical Storytelling, a community of non-profit practitioners and storytellers learning how to integrate a new standard of storytelling. Today, Rachel serves as the CEO of The Freedom Story and Executive Director of the Goble Family Foundation. Key Points

With the support of others, Rachel Goble started the Sold Project, which was renamed The Freedom Story, in order to raise awareness for human trafficking and prevention efforts.

The story that is told about human trafficking is very powerful. If the story does not represent the true struggles of the victims of human trafficking, it can be very detrimental to anti-human trafficking efforts, as well as prevention and funding.

The Sold Project began with a documentary about the vulnerabilities to sex trafficking of children in Thailand.

Sadly, there is a common story among people who have been subjected to human trafficking and helped by an organization. They tell their story to help that organization the way they were helped. However, when that survivor begins on the path to healing, oftentimes they don't want their story to be available on the internet anymore. They don't want to be known for what happened to them.

The theory of change has created a standard that The Freedom Story organization uses to help track prevention efforts.

Resources

The Freedom Story

Michael Kass: Ethical Story Telling

The Freedom Story Podcast Ensure Justice

Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, this is episode number 243, Ethical Storytelling in Prevention.

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking, Sandie. I'm so glad we get to have another conversation today about the importance of prevention, and I'm so glad to welcome to the show today Rachel Goble. Rachel grew up in an interconnected and multicultural world, whether traveling to Central America with her family to survey land for the founding of a nonprofit or trudging through the Sierra Nevada’s as her parents sought to awaken Christians to our role as creation's caretakers, Rachel learned early that the world's peoples and problems are connected and that we must all help in overcoming them.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and International Modern Slavery & Human Trafficking Response Coordinator Priscilla Santos discuss the new team that has been put in place in the Salvation Army organization. This sect of the International Social Justice Commission is responsible for a new approach by the Salvation Army to end human trafficking. The system they have put in place has created a network of people who are familiar with the issues their specific community face while having the resources, information, and connections of a global team present in over 130 countries. Priscilla Santos

Priscilla Santos is The Salvation Army Social Justice Commission’s International Coordinator for Modern Slavery and Human Trafficking Response. And, Priscilla, is an Adjunct Professor at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice where she teaches courses on justice & holistic survivor care. She obtained a Masters in Intercultural Studies, specializing in International Development & Children at Risk from Fuller Theological Seminary. Key Points

The Salvation Army is in over 130 countries around the world.

The Modern Slavery and Human Trafficking Response team is working in over 130 countries to connect people, information, and resources in the fight against human trafficking.

There is an International Modern Slavery & Human Trafficking Response Coordinator in every territory, adding up to around 90 coordinators.

These coordinators work together within one big network to help victims of trafficking.

Resources

www.salvationarmy.org/ISJC

EHT Ep. 101 - Mother’s Day Challenges, Champions, and Celebrations

Britain's Maiden Tribute

Fight for Freedom Strategy Report

Ensure Justice Conference

Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast; this is episode number 242: International Salvation Army Social Justice Strategy.

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, you and I talk a lot about partnership on this podcast, and it's been a central part of our work for many years, and one of the most important partners we have worked with over the years is the Salvation Army. And we're so glad to welcome a friend back to the show, someone who's been a leader in the space. We're glad to have Priscilla Santos with us. Priscilla is the Salvation Army Social Justice Commission's International Coordinator for Modern Slavery and Human Trafficking Response. And Priscilla is an adjunct professor at Vanguard University's Global Center for Women and Justice, where she teaches courses on justice and holistic survivor care. She obtained a master's in intercultural studies specializing in international development and children at risk from Fuller Theological Seminary. Priscilla, so glad to have you back on the show.

Priscilla [00:01:36] Thank you so much for having me. It's a joy to be here today.

Sandie [00:01:40] I was looking back at to see when the last time you were a guest. It was in May 2015 and we recorded a podcast about Mother's Day and human trafficking. And it was one of those podcasts that just really grips your heart. So,

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Happy National Human Trafficking Awareness Day! Dr. Sandie Morgan and Ambassador-at-Large John Cotton Richmond discuss the current status of anti-human trafficking efforts in the United States. They ask the hard questions of what we need to do better and how we need to change in the future to have a greater and more positive impact on human trafficking and the people that have fallen victim to it. Ambassador John Cotton Richmond

John Cotton Richmond serves as the United States Ambassador-at-Large to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons and leads the Department’s Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons. Ambassador Richmond comes to the highest position in the federal government dedicated to combating human trafficking, after a distinguished career in the global battle for freedom. He co-founded the Human Trafficking Institute that exists to decimate modern slavery at its source by empowering police and prosecutors to use victim-centered and trauma-informed methods to hold traffickers accountable and ensure survivors are treated with respect and care.

Prior to the Institute, Ambassador Richmond served, for more than ten years, as a federal prosecutor in the U.S. Department of Justice’s Human Trafficking Prosecution Unit where he was named one of the “Federal Prosecutors of the Year” by the Federal Law Enforcement Foundation. He investigated and prosecuted numerous victim-centered labor and sex trafficking cases throughout the United States.

Ambassador Richmond’s work to combat human trafficking has earned numerous honors, including: the David Allred Award for Exceptional Contributions to Civil Rights, twice earning the Department of Homeland Security’s Outstanding Investigative Accomplishments in a Human Trafficking Award, as well as twice receiving the Department of Justice’s Special Commendation Award. Key Points

We cannot take the trafficker out of the conversation. When we do this we are treating human trafficking as if it's a naturally occurring phenomenon we can't do much about. This leads to some level of blame being placed on the victim.

When we change from passive language to active language when describing human trafficking, we are holding the trafficker responsible and keep them a part of the conversation.

Collect data on prevention efforts can be very difficult because one is trying to prove that by their action something didn't happen. However, in order to grow and mature as a movement, we need to start putting systems in place to measure our efforts.

As we move forward in this movement, it is important we open spaces for survivors to take leadership roles, and guide us with the experiences that they've had.

Labor trafficking can be very difficult to identify when left to law enforcement alone. Ambassador Richmond proposes strategies that would utilize administrative forces to help identify cases and. funnel them to law enforcement.

Covid-19 has caused a lot of chaos and put a lot of people in a vulnerable situation. The question we need to ask ourselves is not where are we going in this situation, but how do we adapt to these changing circumstances?

There is a place for everyone at the table of conversation. It's alright for all of us to be different and focus on different aspects of this issue because when we come together and collaborate, it allows us to tackle the issue as a whole.

Resources

EHT Episode 240 – Public-Private Partnership Advisory Council

EHT Episode 239 – The Rise of Prevention and the Role of the Faith-Based Community Arise Foundation

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss Dr. Morgan's time with the Public-Private Partnership Advisory Council to End Human Trafficking. They examine the annual report that the council released, and how it came to be. Dr. Morgan considers the impact that has been made by this council and topics that are still wanting to be addressed by a future council. Dr. Sandie Morgan

Dr. Sandie Morgan is recognized globally for her expertise on combating human trafficking and working to end violence against women. She is the director of the Global Center for Women and Justice at Vanguard University in Southern California. She is passionate about the role of education in fighting human trafficking. She launched a 12 unit Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate that is totally online. She believes everyone can do something. But first, they need to study the issue. Then they can be a voice and make a difference. Key Points

Dr. Sandie Morgan was appointed Co-Chair of the Public-Private Partnership Advisory Council in December 2019.

This council was legislatively mandated to submit a report by Sept. 2020. In the midst of Covid.

This council had representatives from nonprofit groups, academia, non-governmental organizations, including faith-based to advise the federal government and make recommendations on federal anti-trafficking policy and programming efforts with a specific focus on prevention and victim services.

Prevention can be very difficult to measure, and funding is data-driven. This means that not much funding goes into prevention efforts.

The Public-Private Partnership Advisory Council was able to make recommendations about legislation that should be put in place to address human trafficking; however, they did not have enough time to address every topic and facet that comes with human trafficking. Because of this, they hope that this council will be reinstated in order to address these issues.

Resources

Public-Private Partnership 2020 Annual Video Report

Public-Private Partnership 2020 Annual Report

Episode 239 – The Rise of Prevention and the Role of the Faith-Based Community

Episode 233 – Bella Hounakey: A Fierce Survivor Advocate

Episode 227 – Another Form of Human Trafficking: Child and Forced Marriage

Episode 137 – Interview With Prosecutors: John Cotton Richmond & Victor Boutros

Coaching for Leaders podcast episode 416

The New Activist - Dr. Sandra Morgan, Combating Human Trafficking

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcription Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast; this is episode number 240: Public-Private Partnership Advisory Council.

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, to be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. If you've listened to the show before, you know, often we have guests on talking about the importance of all the work we're doing in partnership around the world to end human trafficking and Sandie we get the pleasure of talking with so many experts around the world. And of course, I get the pleasure of talking with you, the expert that I know, who has just done incredible work all over the world and most recently through this Public-Private Partnership Advisory Council.

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Dr. Morgan discusses the anti-slavery and anti-human trafficking NGO Arise with Arise Director and Co-founder Luke de Pulford and Arise Manager of Frontline Advocacy Tove van Lennep. They examine the unique way Arise operates and the impact it has. They also address, how collecting data on these topics presents a struggle, and Arise has created an unprecedented system for tackling this matter. Luke de Pulford, Arise Director and Co-founder

Educated between the UK, Italy, and Lesotho (LEE-SUU-TOOO), Luke came to an early appreciation of the importance of solidarity. Much of his professional life has focussed on the UK Parliament, where he is well known for his work in defense of human dignity. Separate to his work at Arise, Luke specializes in building coalitions, including the Coalition for Genocide Response and the Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China (IPAC). He also serves as a fellow of Hong Kong Watch, an adviser to the World Uyghur Congress, and Commissioner for the Conservative Party Human Rights Commission.

Tove van Lennep, Arise Manager of Frontline Advocacy

Over her life and education in South Africa, Turkey, and the Netherlands, Tove developed a clear picture of inequality and injustice and launched into a career for the protection of human dignity. After working with refugees in the Hague, she spent several years in research and advocacy at an NGO in Johannesburg.

Key points

Arise is an anti-slavery and anti-human trafficking NGO, that works around the globe to protect communities from exploitation.

Arise believes the best way to combat vulnerability to trafficking among communities is to work directly with and empower local groups and their already established networks.

Arise works closely with the worldwide network of Catholic religious sisters. These sisters support Arise in the work to prevent human trafficking and help Arise to collect data on this issue.

In today's culture, decisions are data-driven; however, it can be very difficult to collect data on prevention efforts because one is trying to prove that by their action something didn't happen.

Building trust in anti-human trafficking circles has a substantial impact against slavery.

Covid has and will cause an increase in trafficking numbers, as it has led to an increase in vulnerability.

Resources

Arise Foundation

AMRAT Network

Bertelsmann Transformation Index

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, this is episode number 239, The Rise of Prevention and the Role of the Faith Based Community.

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, my name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] My name is Sandie Morgan,

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Well, if you've been listening to this show for more than just a couple of episodes, you have heard our continued efforts at this word, prevention and the importance of prevention. And of course, you've heard so much about partnership and community in our work. So, we're so excited today to be able to bring two guests to us that will really help us to dove in much further on both of these. And I know we're going to be able to learn a lot from I'm so glad to welcome to the show. Two guests today,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Interim Director Angie Salazar discuss the opening of the Center for Countering Human Trafficking, a collaboration of multiple departments with the Department of Homeland Security. Director Salazar describes her goals and plans for the center and the role the center is going to play in the future of combating human trafficking. Interim Director Angie Salazar

Angie Salazar Interim Director, Center for Countering Human Trafficking As the Interim Director, Ms. Salazar brings nearly two decades of law enforcement experience to She began her federal law enforcement career with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) Homeland Security Investigations (HSI) in California where she investigated human smuggling and trafficking, border violence and money laundering, and has since served in multiple leadership positions throughout HSI, at its headquarters and in domestic and international field offices. During her career, Ms. Salazar has led law enforcement operations; developed policies and initiatives regarding human trafficking investigative programs; coordinated with other U.S. and international government agencies on trafficking investigations and victim services; and conducted training worldwide on best practices to combat human trafficking. Key Points

Interim Director Angie Salazar leads the Center for Countering Human Trafficking, which consists of a collaboration between 16 departments within the Department of Homeland Security.

The Center for Countering Human Trafficking is going to be broken down into four sectors: operations, intelligence, victim protection and support, and training and outreach. The Center for Countering Human Trafficking is reviewing existing law enforcement information and will work with partners to modernize, understand needs, and learn best practices to open the lines of communication and be a resource to everyone in the fight to end human trafficking.

Resources

Serving on the Front Lines The Impact of Faith and Community Leaders in Countering Human Trafficking for over 20 years Blue Campaign The email for the Center for Countering Human trafficking is ccht@hq.dhs.gov DHS Launches New Center for Countering Human Trafficking Center for Countering Human Trafficking

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, this is episode number 238, Integrated and Synchronized: Homeland Security Launches Center for Countering Human Trafficking.

Production Credits [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:32] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, my name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] My name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:40] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today, we are so glad to have with us one of our government partners here in the United States who has just been a tremendous leader and really here to share some exciting updates with us. I'm so glad to welcome to the show today, Angie Salazar. Angie is the Interim Director for the Center for Countering Human Trafficking. And as Interim Director, Ms. Salazar brings nearly two decades of law enforcement experience to her work. She began her federal law enforcement career with the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement ICE and Homeland Security Investigations HSI in California, where she investigated human smuggling and trafficking,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dr. Glenn Miles discuss Dr. Miles' experience with human trafficking and the research he has completed on the topic. With a focus on how males are sexually exploited, Dr. Miles has a unique perspective on the issue of human trafficking. They discuss the cultural views on male sexual exploitation and the dangers children face when they have access to pornography. Glenn Miles

Glenn Miles is an independent researcher, evaluator, trainer. He has pioneered 3 NGOs in Cambodia. His research mostly focuses on listening to the voices of survivors of sex trafficking with a special concern for men and boys. This year he has helped complete an evaluation of the Chab Dai Longitudinal Butterfly Project. Key Points

Glenn Miles discovered that boys were being sexually abused much more than had been originally thought.

Porn is often seen as a male issue; however, anyone can be affected by it and become addicted to it.

When a boy is sexually abused by an adult female, society often reacts with congratulations for the boy. In contrast, if a girl were sexually abused by an adult male, society would react very differently. Both situations are the same and must be responded to in the same way.

When children watch pornography, a distorted mindset can be created. Their body image can be very detrimentally affected, and the way they create relationships will be harmed.

Resources

Up International

Chab Dai Longitudinal Butterfly Project Urban Light

Stopping the Traffick Asian Youth Against Porn

Glenn Miles' Website

www.ocms.ac.uk

www.freedomresource.org https://www.apnts.edu.ph https://etcollege.org

https://www.azalea.org.uk/flint

www.goodtouchbadtouchflipchart.org

https://orcid.org/0000-0001-6762-0739 https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Glenn_Miles3/research https://independent.academia.edu/GlennMiles2

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Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, my name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. This is going to be a wonderful follow up to our last conversation with Christa. I'm so glad today to welcome Glenn Miles to our show. Glenn is an independent researcher, evaluator, and trainer. He has pioneered three NGOs in Cambodia. His research mostly focuses on listening to the voices of survivors of sex trafficking with a special concern for men and boys. This year, he has helped complete an evaluation of the Chab Di Longitudinal Butterfly project. Glenn, we're so glad to welcome you to the show.

Glenn [00:01:18] Thank you. I'm very glad to be here.

Sandie [00:01:20] Well, Glenn and I have known each other for a long time, and during covid, we had a chance to connect more often. He lives in Wales. I live in California. But our virtual space has been an opportunity to build our anti-trafficking community, and he's been really instrumental in that. So, thank you so much, Glen. I want to dive right into your special concern for men and boys. My very first encounter with a commercially sexually exploited child was as a night nurse in centra...

Stopping the Traffick: A Christian Response to Sexual Exploitation and Trafficking (Regnum Studies in Mission)

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Christa Foster Crawford discuss the different avenues in which human trafficking can be combatted; analyzing the approaches they adopt and how they vary. Dr. Morgan interviews Christa on her many books and how she founded Freedom Resource International. They discuss the four pillars of this organization and how they are implemented. Christa Foster Crawford

Christa spends her days, and sometimes nights, empowering the anti-trafficking movement for greater effectiveness. She wears a lot of hats including teaching, training, writing, and speaking. A Harvard-trained lawyer, she helps direct the Payap Human Rights Law Center in Chiang Mai, Thailand, where she has lived for the past 20 years, and she is the founder of Freedom Resource International, an international consultancy. Key points

Trafficking in Thailand is different then it is in the USA

In Thailand those who are most vulnerable to trafficking normally lack citizenship or basic human rights; such as, being able to travel freely, having access to education, and being able to get work.

A person does not truly have a choice unless there is more than one option.

If we can build communities of wholeness, peace, and opportunity and address the underlying human rights deficiencies then we can hopefully reduce the demand for human trafficking.

We can't only focus on saving victims, we must also do our part to help lift them up and restore them.

Resources

Freedom Resource International Payap Human Rights Law Center Stopping the Traffick Finding Our Way through the Traffick So You Want to Rescue Child Sex Slaves... What You Need to Know BEFORE You Begin Freedom Collaborative

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, this is episode 236, Strategic, Collaborative, and Resourced: a conversation with Christa Foster Crawford.

Production Credits [00:00:12] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:32] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:38] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:41] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. You've heard so many times on the show about the importance of partners. And today we're so glad to welcome another one of our partners who has been working so diligently to support all of us in our efforts. I'm so glad to welcome today Christa Foster Crawford. She is the founder of Freedom Resource International and the associate director of the Payap Center for Human Rights Law. Christa spends her days and sometimes nights like she has today, empowering the anti-trafficking movement for greater effectiveness. She wears a lot of hats, including teaching, training, writing, and speaking. A Harvard-trained lawyer, she helps direct the Payap Human Rights Law Center in Chiang Mai, Thailand, where she has lived for the past 20 years. And she is the founder of Freedom Resource International and international consultancy. Christa, we're so glad to welcome you to the show.

Christa [00:01:39] Thanks. It's so great to be with you both.

Sandie [00:01:41] Well, Christa and I have known each other for a long time. I think we've only had a couple of in-person encounters. And I wish I'd known you when I did some studies in Chiang Mai back in like 2009. So, you've lived there for 20 years,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dr. Susie Baldwin discuss the position of healthcare in preventing and battling against human trafficking. Dr. Baldwin describes the role healthcare takes in protecting and serving the community. Both of these experts, look at the reason prevention is such an important part of anti-human trafficking. As Dr. Morgan puts it,"...an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Susie Baldwin

Dr. Susie Baldwin is a preventive medicine physician whose career focuses on public health, women’s health, sexual and reproductive health, and advancing health equity. She has worked as a clinician, researcher, advocate, epidemiologist, and trainer. Dr. Baldwin serves as the Medical Director for the Office of Women’s Health at the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health and is co-founder and Board President of HEAL Trafficking, where she also leads work on developing protocols to respond to trafficked people in health care settings. Key Points

The root of the problems of sex trafficking and labor trafficking is very similar.

When we focus on primary prevention, we have the ability to stop the problem before it presents itself.

Looking at human trafficking from a healthcare perspective is a fairly new concept; however, it has changed the way we approach and deal with human trafficking.

Viewing human trafficking as a healthcare issue, allows us to take a holistic approach to solve this issue. Meaning, it allows us to focus on the roots of the problem within our community, rather than making it an individualistic issue.

Resources

Heal Trafficking Heal Trafficking Resources Palermo Protocol SOAR to Health and Wellness Training

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast; this is episode number 235: Human Trafficking and Public Health.

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today, we're so glad to welcome an expert with us to really help us look at the complex and important intersection around human trafficking and public health. I'm so glad to welcome Susie Baldwin to the show today. Susie is a preventative medicine physician whose career focuses on public health, women's health, sexual and reproductive health, and advancing health equity. She has worked as a clinician, researcher, advocate, epidemiologist, and trainer. Dr. Baldwin serves as the medical director for the Office of Women's Health at the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health and is the co-founder and board president of Heal Trafficking, where she also leads work on developing protocols to respond to trafficked people in health care settings. Susie, we're so glad to welcome you to the show.

Susie [00:01:32] Thank you, Dave. I'm very excited to be here. And good morning, Sandie.

Sandie [00:01:36] Good morning. I'm just reading your bio out loud. I could imagine five podcasts could go in this direction. But first, I really want people to understand the scope of public health. And then we'll dive into where that really intersects in human trafficking. Can you address that?

Susie [00:02:00] Of course. Public health is a big field and the goal of public health, in general, is to allow people to be healthy and to live i...

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Rebecca Bender and Dr. Sandie Morgan discuss the mindset victims experience while being trafficked. They consider the reasons as to why it can be so difficult for victims to leave their situation. They also look at how media representation of human trafficking affects victims and our ability to recover them. Rebecca Bender

Relentless in her mission to help others find their purpose, Rebecca Bender is the Founder/CEO of Elevate Academy, the largest online school for survivors of trafficking. An author and speaker she brings insight, expertise, and lived experience to her highly sought after trainings and consultations, and serves the U.S. National Advisory Council, Dept of Justice Advisory Council, and advises to a variety of nonprofits. Key Points

When victims are exploited together, they often form familial bonds with one other causing them to fell a sense of obligation to stay in their position for the other person.

Human Trafficking is very similar to a cult mentality, this can make it. very difficult for victims to leave.

It's important to listen to those who have survived Human Trafficking and value their knowledge and expertise on the subject.

When human trafficking is inaccurately illustrated in the media and in awareness campaigns, there is a detrimental effect on the ability to recover victims and on the perception of those being trafficked.

Resources

In Pursuit of Love by Rebecca Bender https://rebeccabender.org Rebekah Charleston: "Tragedy to Triumph" Ted Talk GEMS: Girls Educational & Mentoring Services Elevate Academy

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Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking.

Dave [00:00:46] Today, we're so glad to welcome Rebecca Bender to the show. She is relentless in her mission to help others find their purpose. Rebecca is the founder and CEO of Elevate Academy, the largest online school for survivors of trafficking. She is an author and speaker that brings insight, expertise, and lived experience to her highly sought-after trainings and consultations. She also serves the U.S. National Advisory Council, Department of Justice Advisory Council, and advises a number of nonprofits. Rebecca, we're so glad to welcome you to the show.

Rebecca [00:01:20] Thank you so much for having me.

Sandie [00:01:22] I'm really excited to have this personal conversation with you. Rebecca, I've been following you for a while. Your book, In Pursuit of Love, is on Amazon and it has over two hundred five-star reviews. So, anybody who wants to read. It's a very, very readable story with a lot of lessons embedded in it. So welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast.

Rebecca [00:01:52] Thank you so much. I didn't know it had that many reviews yet. I'm really honored people would listen and read it.

Sandie [00:01:59] Isn't that great? That's great. So, can you give us like a 30-second overview? You know, I want to talk about the past so much, but just so people understand where you were a survivor and how long you've been out.

Rebecca [00:02:16] Yeah, I was trafficked.

In Pursuit of Love: One Woman’s Journey from Trafficked to Triumphant

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Bella Hounakey discuss how the trauma that survivors face is often overlooked by law enforcement. They go into detail about the language that is used in court and how it has the opportunity to bring a survivor justice or to fail them. Hounakey also describes how a community has the ability to change the direction of a survivor's life when they come around them and lift them up.

Bella Hounakey

Bella Hounakey is a fierce advocate of anti-trafficking initiatives to combat and abolish human trafficking. As a survivor herself, she understands the adverse impact of trafficking. This empathy has guided her career and interests to support policies that contribute to supporting victims as they navigate life after victimization. Bella currently serves on two Human Trafficking Council- she’s a member of the U.S. Advisory Council on Human Trafficking and Framework -training and technical assistance project aimed at building capacity to address labor trafficking in the United States. As part of the Council, Bella worked with the Trump Administration on an Executive Order on Combating Human Trafficking and Online Child Exploitation. Her goals remain steadfast: raise awareness, reduce the risk of victimization, educate members of the judicial system and general public, and advocate for victim protection and treatment. Bella received a Bachelor’s degree in Criminal Justice and Spanish; and a Master’s degree from Western Michigan University. Key Points

It is important to educate others on the toll trafficking takes on a victim's mind.

It can be very difficult mentally/physically for a survivor to testify in court against. their captor.

In court, the words used to present victims have to ability to be very detrimental.

When a community comes around a survivor they have the ability to give them an opportunity to live a normal life.

Resources

The U.S. Advisory Council on Human Trafficking 2020 Report

Bella Hounakey's Speech At Summit On Human Trafficking

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Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innervate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today, we are honored to bring a story from a survivor here to the podcast. I'm so glad to welcome Bella Hounakey to the show today. She is a fierce advocate of anti-trafficking initiatives to combat and abolish human trafficking. As a survivor herself, she understands the adverse impact of trafficking. This empathy has guided her career and interests to support policies that continue supporting victims as they navigate through life after victimization. Bella currently serves on two human trafficking councils. She's a member of the U.S. Advisory Council on Human Trafficking, and Framework, a training and technical assistance project aimed at building capacity to address labor trafficking in the United States. As part of the council, Bella worked with the Trump administration on an executive order on combating human trafficking, and online child exploitation. Her goals remain steadfast. Raise awareness, reduce risk of victimization, educate members of the judicial system and the general public,

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Ruthi Hanchett and Sandie Morgan discuss the role social media has played recently in spreading misinformation about human trafficking. They also go into detail about how the rise in children being online, due to COVID-19, is exposing them to a greater risk of coming into contact with predators. As mothers, both Sandie and Ruthi list actions parents can take to protect their children from becoming victims to predators. Ruthi Hanchett

Ruthi Hanchett has been a leader in the field of children’s and women’s rights, human trafficking, and gender equality for over a decade. While working for World Vision International, she regularly represented the organization to global political leaders, the UN Human Rights Council, UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, UN Girls Education Initiative, and the NGO Advisory Council on Violence Against Children. One of her favorite responsibilities has been enabling children and youth around the globe to speak out for justice. Ruthi currently serves on the board of Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice, teaches as an adjunct professor, and coaches Vanguard’s Live2Free student-teams, which speak on human trafficking in local middle and high schools. Ruthi often lectures and speaks on issues related to human trafficking, as well as mentors survivors of human trafficking in her local community. Ruthi is a volunteer with the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force, a wife, and mamma to two little girls. Key Points

The majority of people who are exploited are exploited by someone they know.

Ruthi and Sandie discuss the role social media has taken in spreading false information about human trafficking.

There has been a rise in predators accessing children online since quarantine began.

There are steps a parent can take to protect their children when online.

It is our job as a community to protect and look out for the children in our lives

Resources

Hashtag activism, conspiracy theories, and the truth about human trafficking by Ruthi Hanchett Live2Free Netsmartz The Mama Bear Effect Ensure Justice Conference Ending Human Trafficking Resources EHT 230 – Cal Walsh and Protecting our Children

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast; this is Episode 232: Social Media and Finding the Truth About Human Trafficking.

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, we have a friend back with us today who's been on several times before, who's going to help us to navigate what's happening in social media right now. We're so glad to welcome back Ruthi Hanchett. She is the Live2Free coach, adjunct professor, and also on the board of the Global Center for Women and Justice here at Vanguard University. And she's a mom, too. Hello, Ruthi. We're glad to have you back.

Ruthi [00:01:11] Hi. It's good to be back. Thanks.

Sandie [00:01:14] We want to dive into the flurry of social media that has just I mean, my inbox is full. I have emails, my phone. I get texts, I get phone calls because people are anxious about some of the stories being circulated on social media. So, I thought it would be a really interesting conversation for us to talk about it.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak interview Liliana Yanez, Esq, a managing Director of the Center for Legal Services at My Sisters' Place. She is a lawyer with over 20 years of experience. Prior to working at MSP, Liliana taught in the immigration clinic at the City University School of Law. They discuss the detrimental effects of labeling people as other. Liliana Yanez, Esq

Liliana Yanez, Esq is the Managing Director of the Center for Legal Services at My Sisters' Place. A lawyer with over 20 years of experience. Prior to working at MSP, Liliana taught in the immigration clinic at the City University School of Law.

Key Points

When vulnerable people are labeled as other, it is much easier for them to be taken advantage of. How do we begin to see people who differ from us in education, immigration status, or socioeconomic level not as other, but as a part of our community? My Sisters' Place is an organization with the goal to educate people about and help. people who have experienced human trafficking.

Resources

My Sisters' Place New York Episode 187 - Why is Labor Trafficking so Hard to Find? 103 – Labor Trafficking: An Interview with Alameda Deputy District Attorney Dan Roisman My Sisters' Place NY Facebook My Sisters' Place NY Twitter

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, this is episode number 231, the Intersection of Diversity and Human Trafficking Vulnerabilities.

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] My name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be your voice and make a difference in ending human trafficking and Sandie today I'm so glad for us to welcome to the show, Liliana Yanez. She is the managing director of the Center for Legal Services at My Sisters' Place. She's a lawyer with over 20 years of experience and prior to working at My Sisters' Place, Liliana taught at the immigration clinic at the City University's School of Law. Liliana, we're so glad to welcome you to the show today.

Liliana [00:01:11] Thank you. Happy to be here.

Sandie [00:01:13] I met Liliana through the CEO of My Sisters' Place, Karen Cheeks-Lomax, also an attorney. And Karen Cheeks-Lomax serves on the Public Private Partnership Advisory Council to end human trafficking with me. When we started talking about this, I wanted to know more about My Sisters' Place, and Liliana one of the things I love about your web page is your tag line, providing hope, achieving justice, and changing lives. So, before we get into our conversation, would you give us kind of an overview of My Sisters' Place?

Liliana [00:01:56] Yes, thank you. So, My Sisters' Place is an organization that works, to serve survivors of domestic violence and human trafficking in many facets. The Center for Legal Services, of which I am the managing director, provides legal assistance in family law and immigration law to survivors of domestic violence and human trafficking. We also have a domestic violence education and prevention department that targets young people in learning to talk about relationships. What's a healthy relationship? What's not a healthy relationship? And to identify signs of abuse. We have counseling services, supportive counseling services for both adults and children that survivors can access. We also have a human trafficking department again,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak interview Callahan Walsh, a child advocate for the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children (NCMEC) and co-host of In Pursuit with John Walsh on Investigation Discovery. They discuss how COVID-19 has presented challenges and opportunities in the fight against child sexual exploitation and how we can make sure that kids are equipped with safe and smart decision making to prevent online exploitation.

Callahan Walsh

Callahan Walsh is a child advocate for the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children (NCMEC) and co-host of In Pursuit with John Walsh on Investigation Discovery. He is the son of John and Revé Walsh, who co-founded NCMEC in 1984 after the kidnapping and murder of their first son, Adam. Following in his parent’s footsteps, Callahan has focused his energy on fighting crime, helping find missing children, reducing child sexual exploitation, and preventing child victimization. Key Points

John Shehan, NCMEC Vice President, shared, "In the first quarter of 2020, NCMEC became aware of predators openly discussing the pandemic as an opportunity to entice unsupervised children into producing sexually explicit material." Parents, educators, community leaders, and law enforcement have access to free online resources through NetSmartz that can help create a safer online community for kids. Coming together as a community and using online safety programs can prevent the issues of missing and exploited children.

Resources

NCMEC CyberTipline Report NetSmartz NetSmartz Student Project Kit NetSmartz Classroom Activities

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 230 - Callahan Walsh of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children on Protecting Our Children.

Production Credits [00:00:12] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:33] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:39] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:41] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, I'm so glad for our guest today because he and his family have been such an important voice and important partners in the work that so many of us care so deeply about. And today I know we're going to learn so much from him. I'm so pleased to welcome Callahan Walsh to the show today. He is a child advocate for the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children and co-host of In Pursuit with John Walsh on Investigation Discovery. He is the son of John and Reve Walsh, who co-founded the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children in 1984 after the kidnapping and murder of their first son, Adam. Following his parents' footsteps, Cal has focused his energy on fighting crime, helping find missing children, reducing child sexual exploitation, and preventing child victimization. Cal we're so glad to welcome you to the show.

Cal [00:01:40] Thank you for having me. I really appreciate being here.

Sandie [00:01:43] So, Cal, I've been associated with a National Center for Missing and Exploited Children for many years, worked with some greats that have been part of the team there. And when I read the latest statistics, National Center for Missing and Exploited Children published this note: that you have experienced a 90.46 percent increase in Cyber Tipline reports between January and June 2020 versus the same time period last year.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Dr. April Harris Akinloye, the former Chief Diversity Officer and Title IX Coordinator at Vanguard University. Together they take part in a Courageous Conversation, which is an initiative that was launched to bring the community together to have a safe place where they could discuss very uncomfortable topics that touched upon things that were happening throughout society and our country at large. They predominately discuss how to navigate representation, right, and resources as parents.

Dr. April Harris Akinloye A diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) professional with 18+ years of experience leading teams into strategic analysis of practices, policies, and communication. Facilitates institutional culture change by bridging intercultural and intergenerational perspectives through critical analysis, organizational accountability, and collaboration. Delivers DEI initiatives that are practical, measurable, and manifest representation of all constituents. Known for exceptional communication skills that cultivate trust and influence across all roles and functions. Key Points

The model of three Rs, representation, right, and resources can be used as a starting place to evaluate yourself and others. Being an ally is speaking up for those without a voice. You are speaking through your actions: what you do, how you act, who you interact with, and who you bring alongside you in whatever environment you're in. Bettering our society when raising kids that are part of a structure where they enjoy a privilege, can start as basic as teaching them to treat others the way they want to be treated. The more we begin to value each other in the different ways that we have expertise and resources, the more we can become inclusive and develop authentic give and take relationships.

Resources

What is Juneteenth and When is It? CCCU Magazine: Diversity Matters Healing Racial Trauma Is Christianity the White Man’s Religion? by Antipas Harris Between the World and Me by Ta-Nehesi Coates The Cross the Lynching Tree by James Cone Just Mercy: A Story of Justice and Redemption by Bryan Stevenson I’m Still Here: Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness by Austin Channing Brown The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria by Beverly Tatum Stamped from the Beginning: The Definitive History of Racist ideas in America by Ibram X. Kendi How to Be Anti-Racist by Ibram X. Kendi Be the Bridge: Pursuing God’s Heart for Racial Justice by Latasha Morrison The Color of Compromise: The Truth about the American Church’s Complicity in Racism by Jemar Tisby Roadmap to Reconciliation by Brenda Salter McNeil The Very Good Gospel by Lisa Sharon Harper The Color of Law by Richard Rothstein Mindful of Race by Ruth King Walls Can Fall by Kenneth Ulmer Real Talk with Dumas Podcast Truth's Table Podcast Hope & Hard Pills Podcast Anti-Racist Pod Squad Podcast Pass the Mic Podcast Netflix Film: 13th Netflix TV Show: When They See Us Film: Just Mercy

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Production Credits [00:00:07] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:28] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:34] My name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:36] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues,

The Color of Compromise: The Truth about the American Church’s Complicity in Racism

The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness

Stamped from the Beginning: The Definitive History of Racist Ideas in America (National Book Award Winner)

The Color of Law: A Forgotten History of How Our Government Segregated America

I'm Still Here: Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness

Be the Bridge: Pursuing God's Heart for Racial Reconciliation

Walls Can Fall: Race, Reconciliation & Righteousness in a Divided World

Is Christianity the White Man's Religion?: How the Bible Is Good News for People of Color

Mindful of Race: Transforming Racism from the Inside Out

Roadmap to Reconciliation: Moving Communities into Unity, Wholeness and Justice

Just Mercy: A Story of Justice and Redemption

Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together In The Cafeteria?: And Other Conversations About Race

The Very Good Gospel: How Everything Wrong Can Be Made Right

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak interview Victor Boutros to examine the recent developments of this issue. Victor serves as the Chief Executive Officer of the Human Trafficking Institute, which he helped to co-found in 2015. They review the trends found in the Institute's 2019 Federal Human Trafficking Report. Victor Boutros

Chief Executive Officer Victor serves as the Chief Executive Officer of the Human Trafficking Institute, which he helped to co-found in 2015. Prior to his role at the Institute, he served as a federal prosecutor in the U.S. Department of Justice’s Human Trafficking Prosecution Unit and trained law enforcement from different parts of the world on how to investigate and prosecute human trafficking. He is co-author with Gary Haugen of The Locust Effect: Why the End of Poverty Requires the End of Violence (Oxford Press). In 2016, Victor and Gary received the Grawemeyer Prize for Ideas Impacting World Order, awarded annually to the authors of one world-changing book based on originality, feasibility, and potential impact. Victor is a graduate of Baylor University, Harvard University, Oxford University, and the University of Chicago. Key Points

The Human Trafficking Institute creates an annual report to provide policymakers, government leaders, and practitioners a common set of data on what human trafficking looks like at the federal level to better identify trends, make arguments, and inform policies. In the 2019 report, there is an emphasis on the trend of a decrease in criminal prosecution and a significant increase in civil cases. In order to solve the problem at its source, we need to consider ways to increase the risk and the cost for traffickers engaging in the crime. As the anti-trafficking movement matures, it becomes increasingly important to have rigorous, clear data, which becomes the knowledge base to make wise policy and legal decisions.

Resources

The Human Trafficking Institute The Institute's 2019 Federal Human Trafficking Report 137 – Interview With Prosecutors: John Cotton Richmond & Victor Boutros 187 – Why Is Labor Trafficking So Hard To Find

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 228 -Human Trafficking Institute Analyzes Federal Human Trafficking Criminal and Civil Prosecutions.

Production Credits [00:00:13] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:33] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:39] My name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:41] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today, we have a return guest with someone who's just has a tremendous amount of experience, is going to help us to really look at some of the recent developments, also to help us to really consider and look at the perspective from federal human trafficking prosecutions. I'm so glad to welcome back to the show, Victor Boutros. Victor serves as Chief Executive Officer of the Human Trafficking Institute, which he helped co-found in 2015. Prior to the role at the Institute, he served as a federal prosecutor in the U.S. Department of Justice's human trafficking prosecution unit and trained law enforcement from different parts of the world on how to investigate and prosecute human trafficking. He is co-author with Gary Haugen of The Locust Effect: Why the End of Poverty Requires the End of Violence from Oxford Press. In 2016,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Diana Mao, President and Co-Founder of the Nomi Network. Diana is an abolitionist with a mission to eradicate human trafficking in her lifetime. Diana actively champions for change, and her visionary skillsets have urged the Nomi Network forward into enormous growth and success. They discuss the Nomi Network's unique business strategy, the nature of child and forced marriages, and current challenges of the anti-trafficking movement. Diana Mao

Diana Mao is an abolitionist with a mission to eradicate human trafficking in her lifetime. Diana actively champions for change, and her visionary skillsets have urged Nomi Network forward into enormous growth and success. She is a 2015 Presidential Leadership Scholar, New York Academy of Medicine Fellow, and co-chaired the Nexus Human Trafficking Modern Day Slavery Work Group from 2013-2019. She currently serves on the White House Public-Private Partnership Advisory Council to End Human Trafficking. Diana also writes for the Huffington Post, Reuters, and the United States Chamber of Commerce Business Civic Leadership Center. She received the 2018 Pioneer Award from Asian Americans for Equality and 2018 Recent Alumni Impact Award from New York University (NYU). Diana earned her Bachelor’s in Business Economics and Chinese from the University of California, Santa Barbara. She has a Master’s in Public Administration, with a specialization in International Management from NYU Wagner Graduate School of Public Service. While she lives in New York, Diana spends most of her time traveling to raise awareness and funds for Nomi Network, building partnerships with industries and leaders in private, public, and government arenas to fight human trafficking.

Key Points

Poverty, gender norms, and the caste system perpetuate child and forced marriages, especially in rural areas in India and Cambodia. Although in India child marriage is illegal, there is a lack of implementation strategies throughout the nation that allows this form of human trafficking to continue at high rates. While the anti-trafficking movement has matured greatly, especially considering this year is the twentieth anniversary of TVPA, there needs to be a shift in focus from surviving to thriving when reintegrating survivors of human trafficking.

Resources

Nomi Network Huffington Post by Diana Mao TVPA

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the ending human trafficking podcast. This is episode number 227 - Another Form of Human Trafficking: Forced or Child Marriage.

Production Credits [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan. And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I was telling Sandie before our conversation today that I'm so glad that we get to welcome today's guest to really help me to learn more about something I know very little about, which is forced or child marriage. And Sandie, I know today's guest is going to really help us to explore this more so we can really understand more of the complexities of trafficking, but also how we can do better in our work. I'm so glad to welcome to the show today, Diana Mao. She is an abolitionist with a mission to eradicate human trafficking in her lifetime. Diana actively champions for change and her visionary skill sets to have urged ...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss new guidelines released by the U.S. Department of State for effective public awareness and outreach efforts for human trafficking. In order to have ethical practices to empower victims, we must be vigilant in how we frame our media messages. Sandie emphasizes three central ideas from the guidelines that are necessary for ethical public awareness and outreach.

Key Points

A central idea to take away from the new guidelines is to avoid conflated statistics and instead, use sources with reliable statistics that better demonstrate the bigger picture. Another key idea is to frame our messaging in a thoughtful way that avoids promoting misconceptions about human trafficking. Additionally, we must choose images that properly represent the story, are more in line with accurate statistics, and do not sensationalize survivors' experiences. Overall, we need to make sure that we understand what a victim-centered, trauma-informed message looks like. It's going to be empowering and avoid re-traumatization.

Resources

Public Awareness and Outreach Guide International Labour Organization Attorney General's Trafficking in Persons Report Trafficking in Persons (TIP) Report Research Initiative to End Slavery

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Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, today a conversation about media ethics and where we draw the line. And this is a conversation we've had many times in different contexts, of course, of the show. But there's some new materials available that we wanted to dive in on.

Sandie [00:01:03] Yes, and I'm excited to bring to your attention a new guideline that has been released by our Department of State Office on Trafficking in Persons. First, though, I'd like to respond to some text messages, emails, and social media increase about how is the Global Center for Women and Justice doing during COVID-19? And to respond to that, I just want everyone to know we are working remotely. And Dave and I are recording this remotely. He's in his stay at home secure place and I'm in mine. And the biggest thing that people can do is to continue to support the work. Our work continues even in COVID-19. We continue to work remotely. We're still working with task forces and survivors who are pursuing their education now entirely online. So, if you wanted to do something, please give. And you can go to www.gcwj.org and hit the donate button. That's how you can help us during COVID-19.

Dave [00:02:26] We have many people in our community that do support not only this show, but perhaps more importantly, support the work of the center and all the work you've done Sandie over the years through the Global Center for Women and Justice. So, thank you if you have been one of those supporters. And to reinforce what Sandie said, we are very blessed, we have a wonderful team, we have wonderful volunteers already. We're not seeking more help in that way. You can certainly continue to give, though, or perhaps give for the first time if you have not before. That'll continue to support our work and support Sandie's work and ...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak interview Mary Chiappetta, a member of Soroptimist International Huntington Beach. Soroptimist International is a global volunteer organization providing women and girls with access to the education and training they need to achieve economic empowerment. Mary became passionate about raising sex trafficking awareness after serving as a juror on a criminal case in Orange County, California. Mary Chiappetta

Mary Chiappetta is a member of Soroptimist International Huntington Beach. Soroptimist International is a global volunteer organization providing women and girls with access to the education and training they need to achieve economic empowerment. Mary chairs the Stop Human Trafficking committee for SIHB. She became passionate about raising sex trafficking awareness after serving as a juror on a criminal case in Orange County, California.

Key Points

Is a victim of human trafficking credible if he/she has previous crimes committed? Within a prosecution, it is very important for the jury to understand the background and vocabulary within the specific sub-culture. While social media must be used carefully, it often provides evidence to incriminate pimps. Jury duty is often seen as a dreaded responsibility, however, Mary turned it into an opportunity to learn more about the issues and has become an advocate for victims as a result of her experience as a juror.

Resources

Soroptimist

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Production Credits [00:00:07] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:28] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:34] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:36] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Today, we have a special episode with the perspective from a juror. So, glad to welcome to the show today Mary Chiappetta. She is a member of Soroptimist International, Huntington Beach. Soroptimist International is a global volunteer organization providing women and girls with access to the education and training they need to achieve economic empowerment. Mary chairs the Stop Human Trafficking Committee for SIHB. She became passionate about raising sex trafficking awareness after serving as a juror on a criminal case here in Orange County, California. Mary, we're so glad to welcome you to the show.

Mary [00:01:22] I'm delighted to be here. Thanks for having me.

Sandie [00:01:25] We're glad to have, that's for sure. I've often wondered how jurors feel when they're sitting in a court at a human trafficking trial. And to get to talk to somebody and ask them those questions is really excited about this. We've never done a podcast like this before. Mary and I haven't met until today and in recent emails, so I'm especially happy for this opportunity. So, welcome.

Mary [00:01:54] Thank you.

Sandie [00:01:55] So, we're going to jump right in with what did you know about human trafficking before you went for jury duty?

Mary [00:02:05] Well, I'm embarrassed to say I knew almost nothing. I mean, when they said that it was going to be a human trafficking case, my mind went to a van with people being smuggled across the border. It went to a sweatshop where people were working for no money. I didn't think of it as the sex trafficking part at all. I just had absolutely no idea. I was a little bit,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Nicole Strattman and Sgt. Juan Reveles. Nicole is a licensed clinical social worker, senior social services supervisor in Orange County Social Services, and she is the Commercially Sexually Exploited Children Coordinator for Children and Family Services. Juan has a background working with gangs and narcotics with the Anaheim Police Department and is currently the Chair of the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force. They discuss how their work to end human trafficking has been impacted during the current public health crisis. Key Points

Social service agencies in child welfare remain essential work, and while the work looks different right now in some respects due to COVID-19, they continue responding to children's needs. Law enforcement is operating under a new public health model perspective, which has allowed them to create new partnerships to better fight human trafficking despite the setbacks during the public health crisis. Despite tactics and strategies changing, the goal to end human trafficking has remained the same.

Resources

KTLA Article Child Abuse Registry: 800-207-4464 Orange County Social Services: 714-940-1000 National Human Trafficking Hotline: 888-373-7888

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 224 - Crisis Impact on Human Trafficking.

Production Credits [00:00:08] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, today we have two people with us, two guests who've made a difference. And I'm really excited about our conversation ahead on crisis impact.

Sandie [00:00:54] Well, I'm very happy to welcome two wonderful friends and colleagues and experts. Nicole Strattman, licensed clinical social worker, senior social services supervisor here in Orange County Social Services, and she is the Commercially Sexually Exploited Children (CSEC) Coordinator for Children and Family Services. What that really means is that when we have a CSEC victim, Nicole keeps track of all of the services, she manages protocols, she keeps everybody in the loop- coordinator for sure. We also have Sergeant Juan Reveles from the Anaheim Police Department. Big shout out to Anaheim, they've been leading on this for several years now. He has a background in gangs and narcotics and is the Chair of the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force. So, I want to welcome both of you, Nicole and Juan to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast.

Nicole [00:01:58] Thank you.

Juan [00:01:59] Thank you, Sandie.

Sandie [00:02:00] So, kind of is a way to get a little bit better acquainted. I want Nicole to tell us about the award that you recently received.

Nicole [00:02:11] So, the award is the Above and Beyond award, which was granted to me by the California Department of Social Services. It was granted in January of 2020, which was the first time they have done this award, and it was in recognition of Human Trafficking Awareness Month.

Sandie [00:02:26] I was really impressed that you were the local girl made a statewide star. So, we're really proud of you.

Nicole [00:02:33] Yes, I was the only one in Orange County, so it was an honor for sure.

Sandie [00:02:37] We're proud of you and grateful for your long h...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined again by the Live2Free coach, Ruthi Hanchett, along with Live2Free President, Kaleigh Lawrence. Live2Free is a student-led, campus club that stands against the injustice of human trafficking that started at Vanguard University but has expanded to other high schools and colleges throughout the world. On this podcast, they discuss how they focus on justice through their annual Fashion Show event, and how you can be a part of it! Key Points

Live2Free exists to challenge our generation to make personal choices that recognize the dignity of the individual, the responsibility of consumers to slow the demand that drives modern-day slavery, and to network with others to rescue, rebuild and restore broken lives of victims worldwide. Through this model and toolkit, you can replicate this opportunity to collaborate, to mentor, and to make a difference right where you are.

Resources

Live2Free Fair-Trade Fashion Show Community Tool Kit Fair-Trade Fashion Show Blog Post 96 – Coaching Live2free Peer Educators

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode number 223 - Live2Free Models Just Choices with a Fashion Show.

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. And today we have a special episode featuring the wonderful work of Live2Free. You've heard about Live2Free many times on the podcast, but today we're just thrilled to have a couple of our close friends and collaborators with us and to teach us more about what Live2Free is up to today. And for those who have not heard about Live2Free before. Two things I wanted to mention here upfront is the who we are a statement from Live2Free and also the mission. So, Live2Free is a student-led campus club that stands against the injustice of human trafficking that takes place here in the United States and around the world. Live2Free started at Vanguard University but has expanded to other high schools and colleges throughout the world, including places like Argentina. We feel the responsibility as college students to not only make sure we ourselves are educated about human trafficking but to take it one step further and educate our peers, youth, and our community. And the mission is Live2Free exists to challenge our generation to make personal choices that recognize the dignity of the individual, the responsibility of consumers to slow the demand that drives modern-day slavery and to network with others to rescue, rebuild, and restore broken lives of victims worldwide. And Sandie, two friends with us today, they're going to help us to discover even more.

Sandie [00:02:14] I am so excited to welcome to this podcast, Ruthi Hanchett and Kaleigh Lawrence. Ruthi is an adjunct at Vanguard University in the Women and Justice Minor. She is also a former guest on this show, so you can go back and read her very extensive bio. But her focus on empowering children and youth has made her the perfect Live2Free coach. And then our president for this year is Kaleigh Lawrence, who is a senior at Vanguard University. She has completed everything for her Women and Justice minor. She's been interning on the ground in front line services to at-risk and trafficked ...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by a cherished member of the GCWJ Community Advisory Board, Cheryl Pittluck. Previously, Cheryl was the Chair of the OCHTTF Faith-Based Action Committee and today is a part of the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast's common mission in ending human trafficking. They look at the value and resources provided by the C.A.R.E. 68 Network to help fight human trafficking.

Key Points

The C.A.R.E. 68 Network helps churches fight human trafficking by providing church-focused resources and a community of peers for collaboration, learning, and inspiration. This is a beneficial resource for church workers or members who want to get their church involved in the fight against human trafficking but don’t know where to start. Joining this community will give you access to toolkits, resources for best practices, a private online discussion group, connections to peers in your local area, current anti-trafficking news, and upcoming events. Churches are in a unique position to be at the front line of our response to this humanitarian crisis because they already have the infrastructure, they know the community, and they are Biblically mandated to speak up for those who don't have a voice.

Resources

C.A.R.E. 68 Network

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Production Credits [00:00:08] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:28] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:34] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:36] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, I'm looking forward to today's conversation because we're going to be learning about the C.A.R.E. 68 Network. And I know virtually nothing about the care 68 network. Other than knowing that it's kicking off. And I'm so glad we get to welcome a friend of ours, Cheryl Pittluck to the show today. Cheryl is a member of the Global Center for Women and Justice's Community Advisory Board, and she is the past chair of the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force and Faith-Based Action Committee. And she has been a friend and a partner to both of us in the work we're doing for many years. And we're so glad to have her on the show today. Hello, Cheryl.

Cheryl [00:01:26] Hi.

Sandie [00:01:27] Hey, I'm so excited about this because Cheryl and I met because someone when I was in Washington, D.C., said there's a woman in Orange County that you need to meet. So, of course, I love meeting people. And I made arrangements to go and meet that person. And that person didn't show up, but Cheryl Pittluck did. And Cheryl Pittluck has been showing up ever since in my life. She was a founding member of our community advisory board for the Global Center. And when I became the administrator of the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force, Cheryl jumped in and became the chair of at that time, a church committee. And eventually, that morphed into a faith-based committee. And the names have changed. Currently, it's now faith-based action council. Is that right, Cheryl?

Cheryl [00:02:24] Yeah, I started as the faith based advisory council, which was helping the professionals at the task force learn how churches run and how things get done and how we can be more efficient in making use of church resources. And now it's a faith-based action committee.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss prosecution with Juliet Oliver, Deputy District Attorney Human Exploitation & Trafficking Unit Orange County District Attorney’s Office. Juliet has specialized in the prosecution of cases involving pimping, pandering, and human trafficking of both adults and minors. They discuss trading sex for survival, protocols for child sexual assault, and a couple of cases that Juliet prosecuted. Key Points

Pimping is the act of receiving the proceeds, in some fashion, that is made from the prostitution activity of a victim. Pandering relates specifically to the acts of trying to induce or persuade another individual to engage in prostitution activity. They do not have to have the intent to collect money from the prostitution activity. In order to have prosecution for victims of survivor sex, especially for minors, there must be a pimp or trafficker responsible for the behavior in order to look at in a trafficking context. Because human trafficking can present itself very differently and potentially not raise many red flags, it's important to educate the population, especially those that are in hospital settings and local law enforcement, on the signs of a potential victim.

Resources

169 - Dr. Jodi Quas: Communicating with Child Victims Calhoun Article Jefferson Article

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Production Credits [00:00:08] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:34] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:36] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, we talk often about partnerships and of course, one of the wonderful partnerships that we have in, so many of the conversations we have is with law enforcement and with the legal side of government. And today, I'm, so glad that we're going to be able to learn even more about successful prosecution. I'm glad to welcome to today's show Juliet Oliver. She has been a deputy district attorney for the Orange County District Attorney's Office since November 2008. Since becoming a deputy D.A., she has prosecuted a wide variety of juvenile and adult cases from driving under the influence to attempted murder. In March 2016, she was selected to join the Human Exploitation and Trafficking Unit, known as the HEAT Unit. She was a member of that unit until March 2020. There, Juliet specialized in the prosecution of cases involving pimping, pandering, and human trafficking of both adults and minors. Juliet has presented on the topic of human trafficking to many different audiences and is trained on the topic of the investigation and prosecution of human trafficking cases to law enforcement and other agencies locally and across the state. Juliet, we're, so glad to have you on the show with us.

Juliet [00:01:56] Thank you, so much. I'm delighted to be on your show. Thank you, so much for having me.

Sandie [00:02:01] Well, we are going to dig right in, Juliet, because I have lots of questions. And I often have people who bring their questions to me and say, can you find out, blah, blah, blah. And, so to have somebody with your expertise here is a real gift. So, thank you for carving time out to record this podcast with us.

Juliet [00:02:23] It's absolutely my pleasure.

Sandie [00:02:24] And I love that women are repr...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak address residential care for human trafficking victims with Melissa Yao, the Executive Director of the National Trafficking Sheltered Alliance. Together they present some of the difficulties in the new field of aftercare, and how Melissa has taken strides to improve the industry for victims that you too can join. Key Points

The field of aftercare is so new that it generally lacks certain standards set in other, more established, industries. Therefore, making the minimum standards that NTSA set so significant in developing this industry to better suit survivor needs. The biggest gaps in aftercare include providing services for victims with mental health issues, physical disabilities, and women over the age of 35 or with children. To overcome these gaps, it is crucial to equip and train agencies for specific needs for the community. Collaboration can accomplish this by learning from other's successful models and implementing it in our own communities.

Resources

National Trafficking Sheltered Alliance NTSA Minimum Standards REST Survivor Ventures

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode number 220 - National Trafficking Sheltered Alliance: What Is It and Why Do We Need It?

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:34] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, I always look forward to these conversations because I am always learning something new about trafficking. And as much as we have had conversations over the years, I feel like there's so much new to uncover. And I know that's true for you as well, too. And today, a guest with us that's going to help us to really understand the National Trafficking Sheltered Alliance and the need for it. And we're glad to welcome Melissa Yao to the show today. She is the executive director of the National Trafficking Sheltered Alliance, a network of service providers committed to enhancing services and increasing access to care for survivors of human trafficking and sexual exploitation. Melissa has been in direct services with survivors for over eight years and is dedicated to ensure quality care for survivors. Melissa, we're so glad to welcome you to the show.

Melissa [00:01:36] I am thrilled to be here.

Sandie [00:01:38] It was an honor to meet you when I was in Washington, D.C. in January, and I've been looking forward to this conversation because I've been active in the aftercare world, how we provide emergency services, residential care, survivor care over the long term. And there are so many challenges. So, I'm very hopeful about our conversation today.

Melissa [00:02:06] Me, too.

Sandie [00:02:07] Okay. So, let's kind of start with. Can you give us a 30,000-foot level perspective on the landscape of services for victims, just here nationally?

Melissa [00:02:19] Yeah. So, specifically the National Trafficking Sheltered Alliance, NTSA, we are a network of officially fifty-one long term residential programs from across the country. Although we work with about 160 direct service providers throughout the country. And there's three key things that we do as a network based on needs that we have realized in coming together. One being that we've developed a referral system. And so,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Bradley Myles to discuss the depth of decriminalization laws. Brad has served one of the country's leading anti-trafficking organizations, Polaris, for 15 years and is currently a strategic consultant through his firm, Meora Global, which optimizes more coherent collective efforts against human trafficking. Together they discuss different actors in the sex trafficking ecosystem and how decriminalization laws and the equality model both impact those actors. Key Points

It's too simplistic to think of decriminalization bills as only about the person selling sex, when in fact these bills impact multiple different actors in the sex trade and sex trafficking ecosystem. The full decriminalization model proposes decriminalizing everything in the sex trade including the pimps, brothel owners, sex buyers, and people directly selling sex.

The equality model, also known as the Nordic model or partial decrim, decriminalizes the act of directly selling sex and offers support services for individuals who wish to leave the sex trade. However, it would still remain illegal for pimping, owning a brothel, or buying sex. There has been resounding support amongst the survivor community for the equality model. Especially considering that it would be more difficult to identify sex trafficking within a full decriminalization model, rather than in the paradigm we have in place now or the equality model paradigm.

Resources

197 – Legalization or Decriminalization: What Does it All Mean?

The Equality Model

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is Episode 219, The Equality Model: A Paradigm Change to Reduce Sex Trafficking.

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, today someone who has made a big difference in ending human trafficking. I'm so glad to welcome a wonderful expert to the show today, Bradley Myles. Bradley is the former CEO of Polaris, serving one of the country's leading anti-trafficking organizations for 15 years. He helped launch the U.S. National Human Trafficking Hotline at Polaris, a 24/7 live operation that identified and responded to more than 50,000 cases of human trafficking nationwide. And he's formed partnerships with over 3,000 NGOs and law enforcement, and received more than 10,000 calls directly from survivors, and analyzed a typology of 25 major human trafficking markets in the US. Bradley Myles has served as an advisor, coach, and technical subject matter expert on human trafficking, gender-based violence, and social entrepreneurship to multiple government and non-government organizations in the anti-trafficking field, including Freedom Forward, AnnieCannons, Freedom United, The Sanar Institute, and the Global Fund to End Modern Slavery. Currently, he's a strategic consultant through his firm Meora Global, which provides support on strategic planning and envisioning, scaling and growth for social impact, leadership coaching, sector wide mobilization, venture philanthropy in the human trafficking space, and optimizing more coherent collective efforts against human trafficking. Brad, we're so glad to welcome you to the show.

Brad [00:02:13] Glad to be here.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak review a 2018 Policy brief produced by the Society for Community Research and Action. It offers a guide to strengthening the human trafficking prevention conversation and allows us to review best practices. Key Points

Raising awareness alone is not sufficient to prevent human trafficking. It must be used as part of a comprehensive prevention strategy rather than in isolation.

Encourage human trafficking task forces to place greater emphasis on primary prevention. Six Characteristics of Prevention Strategies:

1) Strengthening individual knowledge and skills; 2) Promoting community education; 3) Educating providers; 4) Fostering coalitions and networks; 5) Changing organizational practices; and 6) influencing policy.

Facilitate primary prevention efforts by supporting community stakeholders’ collaborative use of data and corresponding approaches for addressing known risk factors. Ensure Justice 2020 is designed to build community stakeholder collaboration!

Resources

EP. 52 – Cyber Exploitation Prevention: Predict, Protect, Practice, and Pray Human Trafficking Prevention Policy Brief | Society for Community Research and Action Influence Through Overlapping Networks | Coaching for Leaders

Evidence-Based Practices Resource Center | SAMHSA

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Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 218, How to Strengthen the Human Trafficking Prevention Conversation.

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, one of the places we can make the biggest difference is on prevention. And we talk about prevention often, you and I, with many guests who mention the word prevention. It is, however, one thing to say prevention. It is another thing to actually prevent human trafficking. And today, I think we're going to look at some of the distinction between that and how we can really be even more proactive and intentional with this work.

Sandie [00:01:13] Oh, I like that. That's a great lead into this conversation. We probably did the most early conversation back in podcast 52, and we were focused on prevention of cyber exploitation. And we introduced a model that's very simple to predict what the harm might be, devise a strategy to protect, and then practice that strategy. And we made the analogy of brushing your teeth. If you eat candy, we can predict you're going to have cavities. So, what can we do to protect you? We can intervene and teach you how to brush your teeth. Not once, not twice, but every single day. So, practice, practice, practice. And when we look at the health care model, public health model for prevention, we usually identify it in three categories: primary, secondary and tertiary. And to make that very, very simple primary is there's no disease. You have no problem. So, what can you do to avoid getting a disease? I remember when my grandpa got throat cancer and lung cancer and he told my sister and brother and I never smoke. So,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Dr. Jodi Quas, a Professor of Psychological Science in the Interdisciplinary School of Social Ecology at the University of California, Irvine. She is recognized across the globe for her work on children’s eyewitness capabilities, abuse disclosure, and consequences of legal involvement on child victims, witnesses, and defendants. Together they discuss how to talk to children who have been human trafficked. Key Points

The types of topics and the types of questions you ask of these suspected victims can affect what they tell. Therefore, it is important for first responders to know what kind of questions will not lead to evasive answers in order to provide the victim with further services and support. When children have grown up in very high risk, adverse environments, they tend to be very vigilant. Therefore, it is important to recognize that because these children have experienced different types of trauma, it alters the way they interpret other people's behavior. One approach is to begin to fold some of this training on trafficking into larger trainings on child abuse to get this information out to broader groups of people.

Resources

216 – Wisdom from a Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner National Science Foundation FLETC Human Trafficking Training NICHD Protocol

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 217 - What Do We Need to Know When Talking to Child Trafficking Victims?

Production Credits [00:00:11] Produced by Innovative Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:32] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:38] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:40] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. And Sandie, I'm excited today. We have someone with us who's just really an expert who's going to help us in, so many ways thinking about communication with kids. Right?

Sandie [00:00:56] Right. I'm excited, too.

Dave [00:00:59] I'm glad to. Welcome to the show today. Dr. Jodi Quas. She is a professor of psychological science in the Interdisciplinary School of Social Ecology at the University of California, Irvine. She is recognized across the globe for her work on children's eyewitness capabilities, abuse disclosure, and consequences of legal involvement on child victims, witnesses, and defendants. She conducts workshops for law enforcement, legal professionals, educators and social service professionals in the U.S. and abroad. As a Fulbright specialist in 2018, she worked in Asuncion, Paraguay training academic and medical professionals, government agencies, nonprofit organizations, and the public on the consequences of maltreatment of children, families, and communities and on improved methods of identifying and protecting victimized children. She was also a very highly rated Ensure Justice speaker. Dr. Quas, we are, so glad to welcome you to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast.

Jodi [00:01:58] Oh, thank you, so much. I'm thrilled to be here and to talk to you all about the work that I do and the impact that I and many others are hoping to have.

Sandie [00:02:06] Well, your work has been on my radar for a very long time, even before you were an Ensure Justice speaker because you've worked, so closely with our judges, law enforcement, academically, locally as well as nationally. And it was wonderful for me to learn more about your international impact as w...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Heidi Olson, a Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner (SANE) Program Manager at Children’s Mercy Hospital in Kansas City. Heidi has a wide range of experience in pediatric and forensic nursing and her role includes performing forensic exams on children who have been victims of sexual assault, communicating with law enforcement and child protective services, and serving as an expert witness in criminal trials. Key Points

A SANE nurse collects evidence to corroborate the patient’s disclosure, makes sure the patient is safe and healthy and may testify in court. There is a better way to identify possible victims of human trafficking other than looking for signs similar to over-sensationalized media. Assess risk factors that address the patient's reproductive system, substance abuse, mental health, physical abuse, and other risk factors. Vulnerabilities and risk factors differ from children to adults, necessitating different screening tools.

Resources

Children's Mercy 106 - Health Consequences of Human Trafficking 215 – Dr. Beth Grant and The Long Road to Restoration HEAL Protocol Assistance Human Trafficking Awareness in the Emergency Care Setting The Healthcare Response to Human Trafficking Health Care Needs of Victims Global Human Trafficking and Child Victimization

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] Hi, everyone, a quick disclaimer before this episode. As always, our content is serious and difficult. This episode is particularly challenging as we are talking about children who have been victims of sexual assault. This, as a result, may not be a good carpool episode as colleagues may experience being triggered and may not be able to ask to turn it off for a bit. It's also not a good episode if you have kids or youth with you without an adult nearby to stop or explain and answer questions. Nevertheless, this is important content and you're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 216 - Amy Looks like Everybody Else, Wisdom from a Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner.

Production Credits [00:00:42] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:01:03] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:01:08] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:01:10] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in Ending Human Trafficking. Sandie, as I mentioned in the introduction here, a difficult topic today, of course, as we get into this and yet an important topic for us to all know more about. And so, I'm glad we get to speak to someone today who's really an expert in this area that'll help us to discover even more.

Sandie [00:01:35] So, we have with us today Heidi Olson, a registered nurse who is a specialist as a sexual assault nurse examiner, and she's the program manager at Children's Mercy Hospital in Kansas City. And her wide range of experience in pediatric and forensic nursing in her role includes performing forensic exams on children who have been victims of sexual assault. She communicates with law enforcement, child protective services, and serves as an expert witness in criminal trials. She has performed or reviewed over twelve hundred child sexual abuse exams in the last two years and has presented over 200 times about recognizing human trafficking, child on child sexual assault, pornography, and sexual violence trends. Heidi, I don't know if welcoming you to the show is the appropriate next statement,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak talk about restoration with Beth Grant, co-founder & executive director of Project Rescue. Together they discuss the challenges with aftercare for victims of human trafficking and how to best support healing in this community through genuine collaboration. Key Points

The physical rescue of a victim is typically the easiest part of the restoration, the long journey of holistic care is more difficult. If our priority is the restoration of these victims, a collaboration of people with different professional skills, initiatives, organizations, and faiths is not only possible but necessary. We cannot allow this space to feel competitive, but rather collaborative and allow for us to celebrate what other organizations are doing well.

Resources

Project Rescue Meet KK Devaraj Hands that Heal 114 – From Awareness to Engagement – The Role of Education

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 215 - Dr. Beth Grant and the Long Path to Restoration.

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in Ending Human Trafficking. Sandie, today we have with us a long friend and supporter of the Global Center for Women and Justice. And I'm so excited for our conversation today.

Sandie [00:00:54] Well, I'm excited to introduce my very good friend, and colleague, mentor. I learned a lot from Dr. Beth Grant in the early days of my work in anti-trafficking, but she's been a part of my life for a very long time, and I appreciate her willingness to be on our podcast. So, this is Dr. Beth Grant, co-founder and executive director of Project Rescue. Welcome to the show, Beth.

Beth [00:01:23] Thanks so much, and it's a pleasure.

Sandie [00:01:26] Well, I remember in the early days having conversations about a lot of the challenges with aftercare for victims of human trafficking, and you've been a leader for decades in this. When was Project Rescue founded?

Beth [00:01:43] In 1997.

Sandie [00:01:45] That's before we even had the Trafficking Victims Protection Act. And I loved the story of how it was so driven from the field. And I just want our listeners to know how we can be in the moment and do something when we get started, but maybe then later we're going to have to add some structure. But will you tell the story of how KK Devaraj called David?

Beth [00:02:14] Yes, KK Devaraj had been our colleague in southern Asia, for a number of years. And working with teens on the street in his major city, huge city. And one evening, he felt with his team to go into a very infamous, huge red-light district in his city, where he had never been before. He took his team there and was stunned and in tears by what he witnessed. Many times, we assume women and children in prostitution are there by choice. And in this case, they are exposed to an area of a city of up to 100,000 people where women and children had been sold into prostitution. That was in 1997, that night when he met some of these women. He just threw out an invitation. I'm up for trying to help in any way they could. What they said to him was, "we cannot leave this place, we're slaves, but could you take our daughter to a place of safety because they're growing up under our cots as we servic...

Hands that Heal books 1 & 2 (Hands that Heal- Community Based)

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Linda Smith, Founder and President of Shared Hope International, and Christine Raino, Senior Director of Public Policy. Linda was recently appointed to the White House Public-Private Partnership Advisory Council to End Human Trafficking. Christine leads the Center for Justice & Advocacy’s research and advocacy on state and federal laws pertaining to protections and services for juvenile sex trafficking victims. Together they discuss the recently released Protected Innocence Challenge Report. Key Points

The Protected Innocence Challenge Legislative Framework recognizes that most of the faps in responding to domestic minor sex trafficking must be addressed at the state level. Using this framework to grade states based on the strength of their laws related to the commercial sexual exploitation of children, there has been significant progress in advancing their laws in states across the country.

Resources

Shared Hope International Protected Innocence Challenge Internet Safety Guide Advocacy Action Center Invading the Darkness

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 214 - The role of Advocacy in Prevention and Protection.

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, glad to be back with you again today.

Sandie [00:00:48] Me too.

Dave [00:00:50] Today, an important conversation with an important leader in this space. We're really thrilled to welcome to the show today, Congresswoman Linda Smith. She is the founder and president of Shared Hope International. Linda was recently appointed to the White House Public-Private Partnership Advisory Council to end human trafficking. And Sandie, you and I have talked about this the last few episodes.

Sandie [00:01:11] That's right.

Dave [00:01:12] Linda is the primary author of From Congress to the Brothel and Renting Lacey and coauthor of The National Report on Domestic Minor Sex Trafficking in the Demand Report. Linda has testified before Congress presented at national and international forums and has been published in news outlets and journals. Linda served as a Washington state legislator from 1983 to 1993, before she was elected to the U.S. Congress in 1994. And she's joined today by Christine Reno. Good morning to you both.

Linda [00:01:41] Good morning.

Christine [00:01:42] Good morning.

Sandie [00:01:43] We're,, so glad to have you here. Linda, would you introduce Christine?

Linda [00:01:49] Oh, I am delighted to. Christine Reno started with Shared Hope, now, nearly 10 years ago. She came in to help boost the legal side of Shared Hope because we were going to grade every state on 41 points of law. And the first point was having a law on domestic minor sex trafficking and make sure the men that buy those kids for sex are perceived as the and actually penalized as the serious felons that they are. They're rapists of children and they should be treated that way. So, Christine has led the legal team that keeps growing here at the institute in analyzing all the 50 state laws. She, I don't know where you passed your bar, but I know you did.

Christine [00:02:37] DC in Virginia.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak collaborate to illustrate ways to teach young children about human trafficking. They wanted listeners to learn practical tools to help raise children with an awareness of how others might be exploited and how children themelves can be part of protecting other people. Through cultivating empathy, fostering accountability, and modeling intentional stewardship we can teach children from an early age how to be a voice! Key Points

As children begin making decisions about what they believe about themselves, about other people, about the world at large, you can begin to be intentional about teaching kids empathy. You can empower a child to make a choice that makes a difference for somebody else. Through the use of technolgy, parents can include children in their consumer choices to be more intentional stewards.

Resources

198 – Belinda Bauman: How Does Empathy Change Our Work? 195 – The Sydney Framework: Supply Chains and Sustainable Development Goal 8.7 Slavery Footprint Sweat & Toil App Good on You Fashion Revolution End Slavery Now Fair Trade Certified

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Larry Haynes to discuss effective models and attitudes to end homelessness. Larry is the Executive Director at Mercy House with over 30 years of experience working to end homelessness. Key Points

Changing the perspective of actions surrounding homelessness from charitable to systemic change in order to make a societal difference. The difference between a shelter and housing extends more than just the period of time but includes more rights that extend beyond socioeconomic lines. Academic studies have exhibited that "It costs society more in actual dollars to just walk past a person and let them decompose in the street than it does to simply subsidize their housing for the rest of their life." There are more challenges in housing the Transitional Age Youth (TAY) population, but Larry discusses some key systems that can create a positive outcome.

Resources

Mercy House UCI Study

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Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:40] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, we have talked about the topic of homelessness many times on this show because there are so many connections, of course, to human trafficking. And today, we are so glad to be able to welcome a longtime friend of the Global Center for Women and Justice, and someone who is just really an expert on this issue. I know he's going to teach us so much. I'm glad to welcome Larry Haynes to the show today. He is a longtime homeless advocate and executive director of Mercy House. Mercy House is a shelter and housing organization spanning throughout Southern California and parts of Arizona. Larry was also a former adjunct professor at Vanguard University and former lay preacher at Trinity Episcopal Church in Orange, California. Larry, we're so glad to welcome you to the show.

Larry [00:01:38] Oh, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me, guys.

Sandie [00:01:40] Well, and I'm excited because Mercy House was recognized at our Priceless event as the organization receiving our Diamond Award. And Larry was the representative to accept that award. I've known Larry since I came to Vanguard, I trust his leadership. He was on our very first advisory board to keep the center going during some very lean times. So, if we get a little emotional, everybody, this is a really fun bonding time. So, let us start off with how long have you been working to end homelessness, Larry?

Larry [00:02:19] Well, so I actually started in 1988, so a little over 30 years. And I started at Mercy House, I'm not its founder, but I am its original employee. And I started at Mercy House in 1990, so this next year, we'll be celebrating my 30th year as the executive director of Mercy House

Sandie [00:02:36] Congratulations.

Larry [00:02:38] Thanks, thanks very much.

Sandie [00:02:39] So, what have you seen happen in those 30 years in how you address homelessness?

Larry [00:02:48] Well, you know, I think there's a lot that's changed, right? Everybody thinks they know how to help because intuitively, you see somebody homeless, you think of shelter, or food kitchen, or you know, that sort of thing.

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The White House has officially announced President Trump's intent to appoint Dr. Sandra Morgan, the Director of the Global Center for Women and Justice (GCWJ), to a two-year term as a Member of the Public-Private Partnership Advisory Council to End Human Trafficking. Sandie and Dave Stachowiak discuss the purpose of the advisory council and what it means moving forward. Key Points

The Public-Private Partnership Advisory Council was established by Senate Bill 1312, a bipartisan legislative mandate of the reauthorization of the Trafficking Victims Protection Act (TVPA). The Advisory Council ensures US government policies and programs use best practices in their victim prevention, rehabilitation and aftercare efforts. Sandie is honored to join the Advisory Council and will advocate for victims and encourage a victim-centered, trauma-informed approach to national anti-trafficking efforts.

Resources

White House Appointment White House Announcement Senate Bill 1312 Assemblies of God News Article LA Times News Article

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 211 - Why Is There a Public-Private Partnership Advisory Council?

Production Credits [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:32] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:38] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:40] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, I was in my email box a few days ago as I tend to be four or five hours a day, it seems like. And I pull up an email, which I had a little heads up on was coming. But here's how the email starts, "The White House has officially announced President Trump's intent to appoint Dr. Sandra Morgan, the director of the Global Center for Women and Justice, to a two-year term as a member of the Public-private Partnership Advisory Council to End Human Trafficking. The Public-private Partnership Advisory Council was established by Senate Bill 1312, a bipartisan legislative mandate of the reauthorization of the Trafficking Victims Protection Act. The Advisory Council ensures U.S. government policies and programs use best practices and their victim prevention, rehabilitation and aftercare programs. Dr. Sandra Morgan is recognized globally for her expertise in combating human trafficking and working to end violence against women and children. She brings together diverse stakeholders to collaborate effectively for research, education, and advocacy directly related to the exploitation of women and children. Her Ending Human Trafficking podcast has listeners in 92 countries and is now housed in the Library of Congress as a resource to practitioners and the public." Sandie, I don't know if I'm legit enough anymore to be on this episode with you. Congratulations.

Sandie [00:02:12] Thank you. Thank you. You know, it is such an honor to be invited to be part of this advisory council where I get to use the rich background, a lot I've learned through our listeners, all of our guests, our partners in our local community, in order to be part of a voice for change and for strengthening our victim centered, trauma informed approach to our own national anti-human trafficking efforts right here in the USA.

Dave [00:02:48] It's really an amazing opportunity for you, for the Global Center for Women and Justice, most importantly for victims of trafficking,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Erin Albright, the former Director of the New Hampshire Human Trafficking Collaborative Task Force. She has over 12 years of experience in the anti-trafficking field and specializes in building organizational capacity and multidisciplinary collaboration through leadership, training, and consultation with service providers, law enforcement, task forces, and lawmakers. Together they look at building a multidisciplinary collaboration to respond to human trafficking. Key Points

Collaboration is a process that is difficult and will take work. Three critical elements of building a task force are leadership, structure, and culture. Subcommittees or any substructure should develop an overarching purpose statement and some specific goals in order to help keep people aligned with each other. Setting the tone within a group that collaborates can truly make or break the group because it sets the stage for growth in really positive ways. Reasons to understand roles and responsibilities: 1) It mitigates conflict within a multidisciplinary team. 2) Roles help avoid confusion for the victim. 3) It can help identify gaps in manpower and training. 4) It helps individuals maintain role integrity. 5) Lastly, roles help manage expectations across the team.

Resources

Developing Your Labor Trafficking Threat Assessment Webinar

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 210 - Collaboration: There Will be Challenges.

Production Credits [00:00:08] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, a word today that has come up a lot in our conversations over the years, and the word is collaboration. But I think we're going to dive in a bit further than we have in the past on collaboration.

Sandie [00:00:58] Absolutely.

Dave [00:00:59] I am glad to welcome to the show today, Erin Albright. She is the former director of the New Hampshire Human Trafficking Collaborative Task Force. She has over 12 years of experience in the anti-trafficking field and specializes in building organizational capacity and multidisciplinary collaboration through leadership, training, and consultation with service providers, law enforcement, task forces, and lawmakers. She recently completed a three-year visiting fellowship with the U.S. Department of Justice Office for Victims of Crime, where she focused on improving victim-centered response strategies, developing capacity-building tools and training for labor trafficking, and building multidisciplinary collaboration to respond to human trafficking. Erin, we're so glad to welcome you to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast.

Erin [00:01:48] Thanks so much. It's good to be here.

Sandie [00:01:50] Well, and I met you when you were in New Hampshire, and I was out there doing some healthcare provider training, I think. And I have followed you because Derek Marsh was kind of the B.J.A. Counterpart to your O.V.C. Fellowship Training Task Forces. And so, this idea of collaboration for task forces is very directive in the grant world. So, now human trafficking task force grants are often labeled enhanced collaborative model because we have people from very different sectors with competing agendas. So,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Benjamin Thomas Greer. His role at the California Governor’s Office of Emergency Services is as a Subject Matter Expert in the field of human trafficking and child sexual exploitation; specifically instructing and developing human trafficking courses for law enforcing and emergency personnel. They discuss the complexities and challenges of the California Supply Chain Act and how consumers can be advocates for ending modern day slavery within supply chains. Key Points

As the global economy extends, consumers are likely less aware of where the products they purhcase come from and how they're assembled, but it's more important than ever to remain thoughtful of the supply chain. The California Supply Chain Transparency Act does not require a company to affirmatively investigate their supply chain, but it does require the businesses to post on their website home page what efforts, if any, that they do to ensure that forced labor or exploitation is not a part of their chain.

Resources

195 - The Sydney: Supply Chains and Sustainable Development Goal 8.7 Sweat and Toil App

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode number 209, Who's Watching the Watchdog? Is Supply Chain Transparency Working?

Production Credits [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, for you to be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, I'm really interested in this conversation today as I am in virtually every conversation we have because we're going to dive in on supply chain transparency. And this is something we've talked a lot about, and yet I don't have a clear answer in my mind as to the question that we're posing in this title, which is who's watching the watchdog? This is a big question, right?

Sandie [00:01:09] It's going to be a great interview.

Dave [00:01:11] I am glad to welcome to the show today, Benjamin Thomas Greer. He is in the role at the California Governor's Office of Emergency Services as a subject matter expert in the field of human trafficking and child sexual exploitation. Specifically, he's instructing and developing human trafficking courses for law enforcement and emergency personnel. Before joining Cal OES, he served as a special deputy attorney general with the California Department of Justice, office of the attorney general. There he led a team and a comprehensive report for the California attorney general entitled The State of Human Trafficking in California back in 2012. He has published numerous American law review and international journal articles and has presented and lectured in 10 different countries. Benjamin, so glad to welcome you to our show.

Benjamin [00:02:02] Thank you very much for having me.

Sandie [00:02:03] Well, I'm really excited to have you because I've been really impressed with how many articles you've researched and written and published, and I've especially been interested and followed your writing on supply chain transparency. And one of the articles that were really gripping was "Who's watching the watchdog?" So, I thought we could have a conversation today about the efficacy of supply chain transparency. Are you up for that?

Benjamin [00:02:33] Absolutely, I'd love to.

Sandie [00:02:34] Okay. So,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by one of our 2019 Priceless speakers, Rabbi Diana Gerson. Diana is the associate executive vice president of the New York Board of Rabbis. She advocates for confronting issues such as family violence, sexual abuse, and the exploitation of children by reaching across faith communities. This episode focuses on the intersection of children's right and human trafficking and how our community, especially faith-based ones, can influence this battle. Key Points

One of the largest initiatives globally is the Convention on the Rights of the Child, which was written and ratified by the United Nations in 1989. This is the most widely ratified human rights treaty in the history of our global society, yet the only country who has not ratified this document to date is the United States. We need to be mindful of the images we share of our children, because they are susceptible to becoming child abuse material. The whole community, not just parents, has to be aware of the risks and the behaviors of people that might take advantage of their position. For every one adult that has training, at least ten children are safer in their communities.

Resources

Darkness to Light National Center for Missing and Exploited Children NetSmartz Cyber Tipline

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode number 208, The Intersection of Children's Rights and Combating Human Trafficking.

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, our regular listeners will remember hearing about the Priceless event that we host every year. And also, today we're going to really dive in on one of the speakers from the event, aren't we?

Sandie [00:01:01] Yes, I'm so excited to host Rabbi Diana Gerson.

Dave [00:01:06] Rabbi Diana Gerson is the associate executive vice president of the New York Board of Rabbis. She has been a leading advocate with the New York Board of Rabbis role in confronting family violence, sexual abuse, and the exploitation of children by reaching across faith communities. Rabbi Gerson has developed programs for the New York City's mayor's office to combat domestic violence and has provided prevention education to thousands of community leaders and clergy, whose roles she considers critical to ending sexual exploitation and all forms of violence against children. In addition, she also serves on the international steering committee for the interfaith forum on child dignity in the digital world. She received her master's degree and rabbinic ordination in 2001 from the Hebrew Union College Jewish Institute of Religion in New York City. Diana, we're so glad to welcome you to the show.

Diana [00:02:00] Thank you so much for having me. You guys are doing incredibly important and critical work bringing people together for a common cause.

Sandie [00:02:08] And many of our listeners will remember Ernie Allen. And so big shout out to Ernie because he's the one who introduced Diana and I. And that's how she came to Vanguard to speak for our Priceless event this year. And it was such a great program and her message was right on target, and the response was incredible so welcome today.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Leonie Webster, a U.K. trained healthcare and clinical professional. They discuss the downfalls of institutionalized living and a harm reduction model that could provide a solution. Key Points

Typical consequences of institutional living can include disturbances or delays in psycho social relationships, learning, cognitive development, physical growth, speech, social development, emotional intelligence, or boundary setting. Having a primary caregiver to respond to infants will promote healthy cognitive development, but in institutional settings there lacks consistency of employed caregivers, which promotes one of the greatest challenges in long term institutional living. Leonie considers introducing a harm reduction model that includes three preventative subgroups, and is evidence-based in its approach, while remaining child-focused and trauma informed.

Resources

193 – Child Institutionalization and Human Trafficking 161 - Orphan Care in Tanzania with Brandon Stiver

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 207, The Harms of Institutionalizing Children.

Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, one of the things that I so appreciate about our work together is just how many amazing and wonderful partnerships you have built around the world. And not only are those partnerships and friendships, but just how much we are able to learn from so many of the different people and organizations that you've had the privilege to work with over the years, and today's no different right.

Sandie [00:01:09] Absolutely. And I have to say too, Dave, that it was such a pleasure to be on your podcast to talk about overlapping networks and this is an example of overlapping networks. I have been partnering with Open Gate International and then they introduced me to our guest today, Leonie Webster, who is a UK trained health care clinical professional, a certified nurse, midwife practitioner, and she has academic and professional expertise in neonatal, and attachment deinstitutionalization, trauma-informed care, policy and reform for prevention of child maltreatment, and it goes on and on. And she's got 20 years of experience serving internationally. And in fact, lived in Honduras for seven years. I'm very excited to welcome Leonie to our show.

Leonie [00:02:12] Thank you for having me.

Sandie [00:02:14] Alright. So, we're going to talk about some of your work, but let's talk a little bit about your own personal experience and especially what you learned by living in Honduras for seven years and one of the biggest takeaways.

Leonie [00:02:30] Yes wow, where do we start? That's a loaded question. Yes, I first went to Honduras in 2003, mainly for a short time missions’ trip to go and observe clinical need within the remit of midwifery and obstetrics. And I was thrown into the arena of orphan and vulnerable children because the clinic that I worked in was next door to an orphanage, a residential facility. And I quickly became aware of the huge needs for legally orphaned and vulnerable children at high social risk, especially in a country with high conflict and political instability.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are once again joined by Chad Salitan to discuss this year's Trafficking in Persons Report. Chad is the Deputy Senior Coordinator at the Trafficking in Persons Office of the U.S. Department of State. Chad brings knowledge on not only what the TIP Report is, but key differences in the 2019's edition. Key Points

Tier rankings are exclusively measuring government effort to combat human trafficking, starting at the highest with Tier 1 to the lowest at Tier 3. There is movement every year between tiers, for 2019 specifically, there were 25 downgrades 24 upgrades. The Tier rankings are also a good resource for grant fundings and financial aid in order to help focus available resources to countries that have the highest needs.

Resources

2019 TIP Report

192 - What is the Trafficking in Persons Report

193 - Child Institutionalization and Human Trafficking

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 206, Leveraging the Data in the Trafficking in Persons Report.

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, one of the resources that has been just tremendous to all of us who want to study the issues, so we can really make a difference on this issue is the Trafficking in Persons Report that's released annually from the State Department. And we have talked about it a number of times on past episodes. And today we are pleased to welcome back to the show Chad, who's going to really assist us in really diving in and in more detail on the most recent report.

Sandie [00:01:14] Yes and I'm, so excited to have Chad Salitan. He's the Deputy Senior Coordinator, Trafficking in Persons office in Washington D.C. And when I started reading this year's report, I knew we had to bring him back. He was on a podcast in March in podcast number 192, What is the Trafficking in Persons Report. And we immediately followed that with podcast 193, Child Institutionalization and Human Trafficking. So, Chad, welcome back.

Chad [00:01:47] Thank you for having me.

Sandie [00:01:49] So, let's start off with what were your feelings about releasing this report? What was that one thing that you were the most excited about?

Chad [00:01:59] Oh, well this was report number nineteen for our office. So, we were very pleased to get this one out. Each year, it's frankly a Herculean effort to produce this report over 500 pages. As you may have noticed your arms got heavy if you were carrying it. Well, we were producing a really comprehensive report this year and we're really proud of our introduction, which covers the theme of encouraging governments to address all forms of human trafficking with a special emphasis on trafficking that takes place exclusively within the borders of the country. So, absent any transnational movement and it's sometimes an overlooked part of the global human trafficking sites, that's what we want to focus on this year.

Sandie [00:02:40] Well let's talk about that because sometimes when I'm traveling internationally, I have this conversation and people feel that I'm not talking about human trafficking, that I'm talking about something else. And, so for me anybody that has been obtained or recruited thr...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak revisit the topic of partnerships to create a larger impact. They discuss the necessity for diverse partners and how to create successful and lasting partnerships. Key Points

Culture often changes from the top down. Engage “elites” who are outside of the centermost position of prestige. Find avenues of agreement instead of focusing on differences. Influence happens in exciting ways when the networks of elites and the institutions they lead overlap. Change will mean conflict — don’t be scared of this. The more diverse your partnerships are, the stronger your net is going to be.

Resources

Coaching for Leaders Podcast To Change the World by James Davison Hunter How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie Global Center for Women and Justice 2019 Trafficking in Persons Report

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Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak. And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Some of you know that I am also the host of a podcast called Coaching for Leaders. I've been hosting it just about as long as we've been producing and Ending Human Trafficking, it began back in 2011. And I help leaders to discover wisdom through insightful conversations. Sandie, has been a great partner on that show and that she has been a guest before and listens regularly. And recently, we decided to have Sandie back on to talk about how to really influence across overlapping networks. And as you've heard here on this show many times, Sandie is just so brilliant in how she engages in partnerships with organizations around the world. And recently I sat down with her and we did a detailed interview on how to really influence across overlapping networks and we're sharing that interview here also as Episode 205. So, here is my interview with Sandie Morgan on Coaching for Leaders:

Dave [00:01:49] Sandie, I am so glad to have you back on the show.

Sandie [00:02:44] Thank you so much, Dave. I love listening to Coaching for Leaders and often share it as a resource to my friends that are trying to figure out how to lead well.

Dave [00:02:54] Well, I am so grateful to have you as a friend, first of all, and as a professional partner in so many capacities. And you and I, I don't know if I guess we've said this maybe on the Ending Human Trafficking show, but we talk a lot on how to collaborate and share ideas. And you, I know, are borrowing things from Coaching for Leaders, and I am often borrowing your wisdom and expertise and thinking about partnerships and collaboration. And that's I think the focus of our conversation today, is how can we, any of us as leaders, do a better job at this. And one thing that you run into a lot in your work as you have become known across the world really for your expertise in helping the world address this huge issue with human trafficking. And a lot of people reach out to you for advice and for mentorship. And actually, before that, maybe we should say a bit for those who don't know about the issue of human trafficking. Could you frame it a little bit for us of what is the issue and why do you and so many people have your attention on it?

Sandie [00:03:58] Well I think human trafficking is not something new,

To Change the World: The Irony, Tragedy, and Possibility of Christianity in the Late Modern World

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak further address the importance of having a trauma-informed framework in organizations, agencies, and even in communities. Asking different questions that are trauma-sensitive can allow you to better interpret behaviors and empower individuals. Key Points

SAMHSA identified trauma as resulting from an event, a series of events, or set of circumstances experienced by an individual as physically or emotionally harmful or life-threatening with lasting adverse effects on the individual's functioning and mental, physical, social, emotional, or spiritual well-being. Trauma-informed just means that your organization has a framework to understand that the people you serve may or may not be victims of some sort of trauma in the past. With a trauma-informed approach and using asset-based development principles, we can give clients skills to become self-sufficient and empower them to live a more positive and resilient life. Everybody can learn from trauma-informed care principles because we all have to start thinking about how we interpret behaviors and ask different questions to better our communities.

Resources

SAMHSA American Institutes for Research (AIR) Building a Trauma-Informed Organizations and Systems 130 - Dr. Becca Johnson - Trauma Sensitivity 169 - Dr. Jodi Quas: Communicating with Child Victims 200 - Trauma Healing Institute

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, this is episode number 204, Is Your Organization Trauma-Informed and Why Should It Be?

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in human trafficking. Sandie, we've certainly mentioned the word trauma on the show before. Today we're going to dive in a lot more on what it means to be trauma-informed and why organizations should care about that. This is something that you've done a lot of thinking on yourself and then also with the partners, we've worked with, right?

Sandie [00:01:03] Yes. And over the last well since the semester ended, I've been to New York City, to the U.K. - five cities there, Washington D.C., and then took a team to Obera, Argentina. I had so many conversations with leaders, with organization leaders, government folks, and just sitting on the airplane talking to people, or in the airport waiting for your delayed flight to re-board. And over and over again trauma came up. It's a word that people are talking about. We've talked in the past about adverse childhood experiences, which are part of the trauma that informs how a child develops. So, I thought let's talk about it from more of a systems level. What about organizations and how they address preparing their staff to deal with people who have a past of trauma.

Dave [00:02:07] And I'm really curious of the folks you mentioned, where you've had those conversations on travel and with other partners and organizational leaders. What context is the word trauma coming up for them? What are you hearing?

Sandie [00:02:22] Well, a lot of frustration was what I was hearing. We rescue people and you know from previous podcasts I really try not to use the word rescue because you can recover someone and then it's a long healing process. And so many of my conversations were around "we rescued them and now ...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak welcome Derek Marsh to the show again to talk about the importance of policy. Derek reveals how policy makes things explicit within the Five P Model. Policy is significant in creating a human rights focus that promotes sustainable anti-human trafficking efforts. Key Points

The Online Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate concentrates on the Five P Model: partnership, prevention, protection, prosecution, and policy. The policy component was added to address unique issues in implementation in order to create a human rights focus. Law is not enough, we need to develop policies and procedures that allow legislation to be effectively implemented. Policy can also protect the viability of partnerships by creating an understanding of what everyone's roles and responsibilities are. Your last step in actually working on the Five Ps is to have a written policy that addresses each individual P more directly, which then achieves the goal to support and sustain anti-human trafficking efforts.

Resources

Online Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate Enhanced Collaborative Model

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Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, the topic today, The Fifth P: Policy. There's a fifth P?

Sandie [00:00:49] There's a fifth P.

Dave [00:00:52] Wow.

Sandie [00:00:52] Yeah, I'm excited about it. I'm also excited that we have as our guest, the Assistant Director of the Global Center for Women and Justice.

Dave [00:00:59] We do. I don't know how many times Derek Marsh has appeared on the show, Sandie, but I've lost count- it's that many times, certainly three or four times since, and in a couple of capacities. We're so glad to welcome back to the show Derek Marsh today. He is the assistant director of the Global Center for Women and Justice. And he was previously with the Westminster Police Department, and in 2003 he retired as Deputy Chief after more than 26 years of service. In 2004, he co-founded the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force, which you hear about often on the show. He served as the co-chair of the task force from 2004 to 2012, at which time he developed and taught courses in human trafficking locally and across the state of California, supervised human trafficking investigations, and assisted in creating anti-human trafficking DVDs for state and federal grants, and wrote and managed multiple grants and provided congressional testimony twice as an expert witness. Today, with our Global Center for Women and Justice, Derek's work focuses on the Online Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate Program, grant writing, budget, and developing and providing local, national, and global outreach and training programs and opportunities for first responders and frontline workers. Derek also has a M.A. in Human Behavior and an M.B.A. In Police Management and Leadership. Derek, so glad to welcome you back to the show.

Derek [00:02:24] Well, thanks for having me back again. I appreciate it.

Sandie [00:02:26] Well, it's good cause Derek and I just got back a few days ago from Argentina, where he was implementing all of that training knowledge tha...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by another partner, Paul Chang, to discuss Labor Trafficking. Paul is the Western Regional Anti-Human Trafficking Coordinator for the US Department of Labor in the Wage and Hour Division. Together, they discuss the nuances of labor trafficking and how DOL partnerships can help better equip your community!

Key Points

The Wage and Hour Division specializes in distinguishing conditions and patterns between labor exploitation and labor trafficking. Labor exploitation is when somebody is not getting what they're owed, but when there are signs of force, fraud, or coercion involved it becomes a labor trafficking case. Fine tune labor trafficking training in your own community with the help of DOL partners in your region!

Resources

Department of Labor Wage and Hour Division Contact Paul Chang at 714-418-8620 or Chang.Paul@dol.gov

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 202, The Role of the Department of Labor in Combating Human Trafficking.

Production Credits [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, as we talk about often on the show, there is such an important role to play of partners across all sectors: the private sector, nonprofits, schools and universities which of course is a big part of our work as well, and then of course- government agencies. And today a perspective from one of the most important partners in U.S. government in combating trafficking and I'm so excited for our guest today.

Sandie [00:01:13] Me too. We've been trying to set this up for a long time so it's exciting.

Dave [00:01:18] We are glad to welcome to the show today, Paul Chang. He is the Western Regional Anti-Human Trafficking Coordinator for the U.S. Department of Labor in the Wage and Hour Division and he's going to be joining us to share some of the perspectives from the Department of Labor and work against human trafficking. Paul, we're so glad to welcome you to the show.

Paul [00:01:40] Dave, thank you. And Sandie, thank you for having me.

Sandie [00:01:42] Well, tell us what is included in the western region.

Paul [00:01:46] The western region encompasses eight states and its the territories from Alaska, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, California, Arizona, Nevada, Hawaii, as well as Guam and Saipan.

Sandie [00:01:59] Okay, so you have a pretty broad job title.

Paul [00:02:03] It is and it's a new position that was created back in 2017 and I'm just very thankful to be doing this type of work.

Sandie [00:02:12] And I just want our listeners to know that we've known each other for more than a decade working together on the Orange County human trafficking task force. And so, the Department of Labor's Wage and Hour Division has always had an important role to play in combating human trafficking. But what people often don't understand is the difference in their vantage point and the resources that they bring to the table. So why don't you start by kind of explaining civil enforcement as your position in combating human trafficking?

Paul [00:02:51] Back when we were working together in Orange County, I was an assistant district director back then.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss internet safety among youth with Alana Flora. Alana is the Chief Operations Officer at Alliance for Freedom, Restoration, and Justice (AFRJ) and directs the Engage Together Initiative. They discuss education on internet safety, internet risks for youth, and resources to protect our youth. Key Points

The Engage Together Initiative helps move people from information to mobilization in practical, collaborative, and strategic ways in their own communities. Five biggest internet risks for youth: posting personal experiences, expressing negative emotions, sending pictures of themselves to others, searching the Internet without proper parental controls, and messaging strangers.

Resources

Engage Together NetSmartz B4UClick Polaris Project

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Transcript

Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 202, Engage Together: A Model for Collaboration. Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential. Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak. Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan. Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. And Sandie, we're all about getting together and collaborating, right? Sandie [00:00:51] That's right. Dave [00:00:51] The P for partnership and today's guest is going to be just yet another conversation of just the power of doing that. I'm so glad to welcome Alana Flora today from the Alliance for Freedom, Restoration, and Justice. She is the chief operations officer and oversees the daily programmatic efforts of the AFRJ, which includes building relationships with those working in the field to understand what is working well, where there are challenges and help create innovative solutions that bridge gaps. Alana connects regularly with many different sectors, professionals, and individuals seeking to learn how they are strategically positioned to engage. In addition to her role as chief operations officer, she also directs the Engage Together Initiative. Prior to her work with AFRJ, Alana served as a Court Appointed Special Advocate for Children in foster care, a substitute teacher, and a nonprofit volunteer. After earning her bachelor's degree in English Literature, she pursued her JD during which time she interned with the local juvenile justice system, studied international human rights abroad, and focused on efforts to assist families in need. Alana we're so glad to welcome you to the show! Alana [00:02:03] It's a pleasure to be with you guys. Sandie [00:02:05] Well, I'm excited to have you on the show. Alana, I've known you about 10 years. I've loved following your pathway to really being a change maker in our communities and I just love that about you! And you make it to Ensure Justice almost every year, that's commitment. Alana [00:02:25] Yes. We love everything that you put together, and the speakers, and the diversity of sectors that you bring to that conference. And so it's a joy and a privilege to get to attend and I continually learn every time I attend. Sandie [00:02:37] Well, it's really fun because we do intentionally try to pull in different sectors and I know that is what the Engage Together Initiative is about too, pulling people together. Do you want to give kind of a little summary of that before we get into what we're going to talk about today? Alana [00:02:56] Absolutely.

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For episode 200, Dave Stachowiak and Dr. Sandie Morgan interview Dr. Harriet Hill. Harriet is the program director for the Trauma Healing Institute at American Bible Society and is one of the authors of Healing the Wounds of Trauma. Together they discuss the globally accessible materials and training from the Trauma Healing Institute that gives professionals, church leaders, and ordinary people the skills to help others heal from trauma. Key Points

Trauma isolates people from self, others, and God. There are three main ways people respond to trauma: they relive the experience, they avoid anything that would remind them of the experience, or they're on alert all the time. Three questions recommended asking people affected by trauma are: What happened? How did you feel? What was the hardest part for you? Healing the Wounds of Trauma is focused on the individual person and their expression of their pain, not on the person who is trying to help them.

Resources

Trauma Healing Institute Healing the Wounds of Trauma

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Production Credits [00:00:08] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:28] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:33] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:35] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, two hundred episodes in!

Sandie [00:00:46] I can't believe it.

Dave [00:00:47] Ya, I know it's amazing.

Sandie [00:00:48] It was your idea!

Dave [00:00:51] It was initially my idea, but you very quickly jumped on and were the catalyst for getting this message out.

Sandie [00:00:57] Dave, your kind of overstating what a good person I am because I did not quickly jump on. I was not a believer at the beginning. You were the persistent professional and you're the reason we're on episode number 200. So, I just want to publicly say thank you.

Dave [00:01:14] Well, you're welcome. I only remember having a conversation with you and you're like ok let's do it. So anyway, the important part is that we're here at episode 200, and we're not stopping for a moment, we've got so much more to do. And today we have another guest with us, right?

Sandie [00:01:30] Yes, we do.

Dave [00:01:31] I'm glad to welcome to the show today Dr. Harriet Hill. She is the program director for the Trauma Healing Institute at American Bible Society. She has been involved in trauma healing since 2001 and is one of the authors of Healing the Wounds of Trauma. Harriet received her Ph.D. from Fuller School of Intercultural Studies in 2003 in the area of communication of scripture. Dr. Hill, we're so glad to welcome you to the show.

Sandie [00:01:58] Hi, Harriet.

Harriet [00:01:58] Thank you, I'm happy to be with you.

Sandie [00:02:01] I remember when we first met and there was such a sense of oh this makes everything so much more clear for me. I've been working with faith-based volunteers for a very long time and one of our biggest challenges has been how to integrate trauma-informed principles in the service provided by our largely faith-based army of volunteers. And when I discovered the Trauma Healing Institute, I felt like I had discovered a gold mine. I wanted everybody to know about it. We partnered with the Trauma Healing Institute in Argentina and we have promoted the materia...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak reveal a new screening toolkit to help identify individuals that may be at risk for current, former, or future trafficking. Dr. Morgan discusses how beneficial this tool can be and how it should be used to effectively identify and help human trafficking victims. Key Points

A screening tool is different than a list of red flags. A red flag checklist is used to identify risk factors for potential human trafficking. Screening tools are short questionnaires designed to identify potential identifiers of human trafficking. Prior to using the tool, the organization needs to draft and adopt a human trafficking policy, identify internal and external resources, incorporate a step by step plan of action, and train staff on how to administer the screening tool and how to follow up in response to a positive screen. Additionally, when you implement a new tool, monitor and evaluate the effectiveness of the plan and revise your procedures as necessary. Administering the screening tool should be done with a trauma-informed approach: establish a relationship, be prepared to respond to triggers, and safety planning.

Resources

Westcoast Children's Clinic Screening Tool Adult Human Trafficking Screening Tool and Guide 184 - A Toolkit for Faith-Based Communities

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Production Credits [00:00:08] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, one of the invitations we make at the end of almost every episode is for folks to reach out to us at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org with questions and comments about the show or things that have come up in past episodes. And we regularly receive questions. Thank you all of you who send them in and comments. And today we thought we'd tackle a topic that has been asked about a bit, hasn't it?

Sandie [00:01:11] Yes and I love getting those questions, keep sending them. Lots of times we send personal answers, or we do design a content show around a question like we're going to do today. Recently somebody asked about if it was okay to put the link to the podcast on their Website. And yes, of course, you can do that, and sharing The Five Things You Need to Know, the quick start guide. Those are all things we want you to feel empowered to do. Recently, we've had several questions about screening tools, and most of the content when you look for screening tools have been about screening tools for children. The West Coast Children's cse-it tool kit or assessment tool screening tool is used. And about 25 percent of victims are under the age of 18, so it is important for us to also be looking at resources for adults. And we don't need to reinvent the wheel, there are some great tool kits out there.

Dave [00:02:22] And Sandie, as we were preparing for this conversation, I realize I have a what I think is an understanding of what a screening tool kit is. But for those like me in our audience who may not have really heard this language very much, what is a screening tool kit?

Sandie [00:02:40] Well a screening tool is something that you use in a one on one conversation with a possible victim and it's different th...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Belinda Bauman. She is the founder of One Million Thumbprints and the author of the book, Brave Souls: Experiencing the Audacious Power of Empathy. Belinda shares her powerful story on what true empathy means and how we should be relating it to gender-based violence. Key Points

Sympathy, apathy, and antipathy can fake their way into looking like passion and compassion. Empathy is not "with passion" but "in passion", that requires a willingness to decenter one's self and center the other person in order to know and care for them. When people give their thumbprint, they are encouraging the protection of women, the ability for women to prosper through education and economy, and that their voices be heard at the peace table.

Resources

One Million Thumbprints Brave Souls Brave Souls Excerpt

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 198: Belinda Bauman: How Does Empathy Change Our Work?

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, one of the skills to make a difference pretty much anywhere is the skill of empathy, right?

Sandie [00:00:52] That's right.

Dave [00:00:53] Today, our guest is someone who has not only served the world so well on working against trafficking but also is going to bring us a fantastic perspective on the importance and the power of empathy. I'm so glad to welcome to the show today, Belinda Bauman. She is the founder of One Million Thumbprints, a movement of peacemakers advocating with women in the world's worst conflict zones. Belinda is also the co-founder of and the visionary behind #SilenceIsNotSpiritual, a campaign calling churches to break the silence on violence against women. Belinda is a speaker and contributor to Newsweek's The Daily Beast, Red Tent Living, Huffington Post, and Christianity Today. And she is the author of the book, Brave Souls: Experiencing the Audacious Power of Empathy. Belinda, we're so glad to welcome you to the show.

Belinda [00:01:46] What an honor to be with you this morning. Thank you.

Sandie [00:01:50] Belinda, you have been an inspiration to me for several years and I'm always just I think what I love about our conversations is I always feel pushed to the next level in a really positive way. And we can lament some of the horrific things going on in this world but we move towards empathy. You have led in empathy ever since I've known you. So I'm very excited about Brave Souls, I've already read it and could hardly wait for this interview.

Belinda [00:02:30] I feel the same way about you, Sandie. You've been a guide to me in your pioneering in the area of anti-trafficking for many many years. And I have the best mentors that have pointed the right direction for so many years. And being able to watch you and many of my other sisters lead the way, I count that as one of the greatest joys of my life. So if I can just flip that around on you and say thank you so much for all that you've done.

Sandie [00:03:02] Thank you. Well, let's dive right in. We want to look at a definition of empathy, but maybe we should start with why you climbed Mount Kilimanjaro?

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Dr. Donna Hughes to discuss the four different legal approaches to prostitution and their impacts on society. Dr. Hughes is the founder and editor-in-chief of Dignity: A Journal on Sexual Exploitation and Violence. She shares her years of experience on this highly debated topic to better inform our community. Key Points

There are four legal approaches to prostitution that all have different impacts on sex trafficking: criminalization, legalization, decriminalization, and the Nordic (Abolitionist) model. Criminalization is the current model of the United States that criminalizes everyone involved in prostitution. Legalization includes removing criminal penalties and turning sex work into a regulated business. Decriminalization also removes the criminal penalties, however, there are no regulations put into place. The Nordic model holds perpetrators accountable and provides services for victims. Countries that utilized the legalization approach anticipated getting rid of organized crime, but only succeeded in expanding illegal, unregulated prostitution. We need to be aware of legislators organizing for the decriminalization of prostitution in order to raise awareness and oppose their strategies.

Resources

Dignity: A Journal on Sexual Exploitation and Violence Donna's Papers and Presentations Selected Works by Dr. Hughes

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 197, Legalization or Decriminalization: What Does it All Mean?

Production Credits [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, your work has really just built relationships and connections and partnerships around the globe, and today we're so glad to be able to dive in on that first piece. We talk about in every introduction, studying the issues, and being able to bring a voice to who really just has tremendous expertise in this area. We are thrilled to welcome Dr. Donna Hughes. She is a professor and holds the Eleanor M. and Oscar M. Carlson Endowed Chair in women's studies. She has a joint appointment with Gender and Women's Studies and Criminology and Criminal Justice. She's the founder and editor in chief of Dignity: A Journal on Sexual Exploitation and Violence. Donna, we're so glad to welcome you to the show.

Donna [00:01:29] I'm really thrilled to be here.

Sandie [00:01:31] It's an important topic and I would love to talk about a lot of your work, especially if people have not found Dignity: A Journal on Sexual Exploitation and Violence. We'll have a link to that in our show notes.

Donna [00:01:46] Thank you.

Sandie [00:01:46] And Dr. Hughes really digs deep on these issues, but today we want to talk about a growing discussion or debate in our community about Legalization or Decriminalization: What Does it all Mean? So, can you kind of give us a primer on legalization and decriminalization with regards to prostitution and human trafficking?

Donna [00:02:14] OK, there are four legal approaches to prostitution and all of them have a different impact on sex trafficking. The first is the one that in the United States people are most familiar with and that's criminalization because,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Rachel Thomas to discuss psychological coercion. Rachel is a personal survivor of human trafficking and has extensive experience teaching, training, curriculum writing, public speaking, and mentoring. She is the director of Sowers Education Group and lead author of Ending The Game: An Intervention Curriculum for Survivors of Sex Trafficking. Key Points

Psychological coercion is manipulating someone's behaviors, beliefs, and personhood in a way that's against their own best interest. S.T.R.E.A.M. of influence stands for survival, trafficker, recruiter, environment, media Coercion in sex trafficking is exploiting past vulnerabilities and negative experiences. Supporter training allows professionals and family members, alike, to understand the psychological coercion process. Umbrella beliefs of those in "the game" are 1) it's better to get paid for sex than to do it for free, 2) squares, people outside of the game, are losers, 3) this is as good as my life will get, so I should make the most out of it.

Resources

Ending the Game

Sowers Education Group

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Production Credits [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. And today we have with us an important voice in the human trafficking conversation, a survivor. And as we've had many times, Sandie, another perspective from a survivor in our conversation. And I'm really pleased to welcome to the show today, Rachel Thomas. Rachel is a former music video model and sex trafficking survivor. She is now a dynamic educator who speaks from the heart and aims at the head with a Master's in Education from UCLA and over 12 years of experience in teaching and mentoring. Rachel founded Sowers Education Group to sow seeds of Sex Trafficking Awareness and survivor empowerment. Rachel was a junior at Emory University where she unknowingly met a trafficker, a professional and well-spoken "modeling agent". He had business cards and a portfolio of contracts with beautiful models of all ethnicities. He groomed her with high-quality all-expense paid photo shoots and legitimate modeling work in various music videos and magazines. Then after he had collected a W9 form from Rachel, including her parent's address and Social Security number their relationship became dangerous. He began forcing her to have sex with buyers, threatening to kill her and her family if she didn't obey. He became physically and psychologically abusive, ushering Rachel into the dark world of sex slavery. Thankfully, the police and FBI were eventually able to help Rachel and the traffickers dozens of other victims to escape this devastating situation. As Rachel continues to overcome and understand her experience she is turning a mess into a message that will spread prevention and empower victims. Sandie, I'm so glad we get to welcome Rachel to the show today.

Sandie [00:02:32] Hi Rachel.

Rachel [00:02:34] Hi.

Sandie [00:02:35] We are so glad to have you. I've known you for a number of years now and what I really appreciate about you is your slow, methodical, professional approach to education.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss supply chains and sustainable development with John McCarthy. John is currently the Chair of the Sydney Archdiocesan Antislavery Task Force and former Australian Ambassador to the Holy See. Together, they examine the Sydney Framework and the impact that communities across the world could have on ending modern-day slavery and forced labor. Key Points

Sustainable Development Goal 8.7 seeks to take immediate and effective measures to eradicate forced labor, end modern slavery and human trafficking, and secure the prohibition and elimination of the worst forms of child labor. The power of moral education and ethical purchase processes will eliminate the demand for goods and services tainted with slavery and forced labor

Resources

G20 Interfaith Forum

17 – California Transparency in Supply Chains Act

8 – Partnering With Students to End Human Trafficking

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 195, The Sydney Framework: Supply Chains and Sustainable Development Goal 8.7.

Production Credits: [00:00:13] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:34] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:39] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:42] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, today yet another expert who has been hard at work and really working in partnership to end human trafficking. I'm so excited about this conversation.

Sandie: [00:01:00] I am too. Why don't you go ahead and introduce our guest?

Dave: [00:01:03] I am pleased to welcome to the show today Ambassador John McCarthy. John is the chair of the Sydney Archdiocesan Antislavery Task Force. He was also Australian Ambassador to the Vatican from 2012 until 2016. During his diplomatic service at the Holy See, Mr. McCarthy was closely involved with human rights issues particularly with the eradication of modern slavery and human trafficking, a cause which Pope Francis has made a worldwide priority. Mr. McCarthy was also heavily engaged in conference and consultations in Rome during 2015 with respect to the Sustainable Development Goals. Since returning to Australia, he has remained engaged in the antislavery cause and since May 2017 has been chair of the Sydney Archdiocesan Antislavery Task Force. Mr. McCarthy lives in Sydney and is married with six children and seven grandchildren. He was a senior Barrister at Queen's Counsel and was briefed in many notable cases including the first recognition of Native Title on the Australian mainland. Ambassador, we're so glad to welcome you to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast.

John: [00:02:13] Delighted to be with you.

Sandie: [00:02:15] So let's jump into this conversation. We had dinner just a few nights ago and I was so encouraged by your hopeful attitude towards how we can use sustainable development goals and supply chain transparency to end human trafficking. So, tell us about the Sydney framework.

John: [00:02:37] What you have to understand about the Archdiocesan of Sydney is that it is a very big concern. It's a diocese not like Los Angeles where you are, but more like New York, that is a metropolitan area that has been divided into a number of dioceses. In Sydney, we have 600,000 Catholics. There is a very large Catholic school system with 70,000 students who are part of that system with 8,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by a long time partner, Paraskevi Champeridou. Paraskevi, affectionately referred to as Voula, is the director of the Syrian Humanitarian Initiative, BRIDGES. She co-established a holistic restoration and integration approach for Syrian refugees passing into Greece daily. Together, they examine how refugees are vulnerable to further victimization and exploitation. Key Points

A refugee is someone who has been forced to flee his or her country because of persecution, war, or violence, according to UNHCR. Victimization on the hosting land causes the refugees to die in small doses. This occurs through political decisions, exploitation, lack of material assistance, poor legal protections, denial of their new reality compared to their expectations, long geographical restrictions to camps, distorted religion realities, lack of communication, a different legal system, and bureaucracy. Once a person becomes a refugee, they are likely to remain a refugee for many years. Many will be displaced for nearly two decades, causing a life in limbo. Voula says, "We cannot talk about integration if we shall not speak about a holistic approach. If we fail to keep Spirit, Soul, and Body united then we fail freedom, healing, restoration, new life."

Resources

BRIDGES UNHCR

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Production Credits: [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:34] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, yet another friend today who has been a partner for so long in this work to end human trafficking. We have a guest here in the studio who is a longtime friend of yours.

Sandie: [00:00:57] I am so, excited to have Paraskevi Champeridou from Athens, Greece. She was here speaking at Ensure Justice 2019. If you missed it, please be sure to go online and look at the links to see what you missed and plan to come next year 2020. Paraskevi Champeridou is also, known to me as Voula and I've known her for so, many years, I don't want to say how many years. She's a mother, a wife of 25 years, she has two daughters 20 and 16, she's a social worker and a family counselor. She had been working as a private counselor for many years teaching human relationships in Athens, Greece and has been participating, speaking, and organizing many conferences on mental health, family relationships, domestic violence, and human trafficking. But in 2013 she and her husband, Elias, established the NGO humanitarian initiative, BRIDGES, as they foresaw that huge waves of Syrian refugees would pass through Greece, and that happened in 2015. Now they envision their holistic restoration and full integration. She is the legal representative of BRIDGES, working with her husband to give voice to the voiceless and victimized refugees who are daily passing from Greece. Voula welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast.

Voula: [00:02:30] Thank you, it's a privilege to be here.

Sandie: [00:02:32] We are so, happy to have you! On Friday when you spoke about the refugees at Ensure Justice, you quoted someone as explaining their plight as "all gone". Can you explain that for us?

Voula: [00:02:47] Yes, it's a real quotation,

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Chad Salitan joins Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak again, to further discuss the TIP Report and its special topics. Chad serves in the State Department’s Trafficking in Persons office as a Deputy Coordinator for the Reports & Political Affairs Section to lead the U.S. government’s diplomatic engagement on sex trafficking and forced labor. Chad and Sandie discuss the many challenges that need to be restored in this special topic of child institutionalization. Key Points

Lumos estimates that 80 to 90 percent of children in these institutions actually have at least one living family member, oftentimes even a living parent. We know that there is no substitute for a family setting in the growth and safety of a child. Voluntourism, or volunteer tourism, is where someone visits a country and pays to go volunteer at the orphanage for a very short time frame. While the tourists think their money is going towards helping the children, it actually ends up in the pockets of directors. Voluntourism additionally leads to child finders, meaning people go into local, impoverished villages and incentivize children to go into these institutions for more tourist opportunities. Ill-managed institutions can consist of institutional complicity, where the actual organization itself that's running the institution is guilty in organizing or somehow facilitating the trafficking of the residents in the institution. In regards to donations, make sure the organizations are legitimate by informing yourself on their credentials, policies, and ultimately what's really happening there. As a result of a lack of family environment, children leaving or aging out of institutions have increased vulnerability because they are starved for attention, lack a social support network, do not have social maturities such as trust appropriateness, and overall fall short in managing risk.

Resources

TIP Report - PDF TIP Report - More Resources 192 – What is the Trafficking in Persons Report 161 – Orphan Care in Tanzania with Brandon Stiver 132 – Ensure Justice: Principle and Practice Lumos Organization Disability Rights International Charity Navigator

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 193, Child Institutionalization and Human Trafficking.

Production Credits: [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. On the last episode of 192, we talked about the Trafficking in Persons Report with our guests Chad Salitan and he is returning here on this episode. Chad is in the State Department's Trafficking in Persons office as the deputy coordinator for the reports and political affairs section. He works with the management team to lead the U.S. government's diplomatic engagement on sex trafficking and forced labor. If you didn't listen to episode 192, it's a great starting point to the Trafficking in Persons Report. And Sandie, we're going to dive in a bit on one of the key topics in the report here.

Sandie: [00:01:22] Welcome back, Chad.

Chad: [00:01:24] Thank you.

Sandie: [00:01:25] We are looking at some of the special topics and I'm sure we could do an entire series of podcasts, but one of them that particularly impacted me,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Chad Salitan, who serves in the State Department Trafficking in Persons office. As a Deputy Coordinator for the Reports & Political Affairs Section, he works on the production of the annual TIP Report. He sheds light on the TIP Report and its value, the Tier statuses, and the 2018 report's focus. Key Points

The Trafficking in Persons (TIP) Report is an annual report released by the State Department that covers what each foreign government in 187 countries are doing in the area of prosecuting the criminals, protecting the victims, and preventing the crime in the first place. The TIP Report is the U.S. government’s principal diplomatic and diagnostic tool to guide relations with foreign governments on human trafficking. The Tiers create a system where they judge whether the foreign government is making significant efforts, relative to its resources available, to make significant efforts to fight human trafficking. The focus of the 2018 report was integrating partnership to emphasize public efforts at the community level.

Resources

TIP Report

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Production Credits: [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, so, many partnerships and organizations that are part of this effort, and today we have a guest with us that's going to bring really substantial perspective to us on the Trafficking in Persons Report, right?

Sandie: [00:00:58] That's right. I'm so, excited to have Chad Salitan.

Dave: [00:01:01] Chad Salitan is in the State Department's Trafficking in Persons office as deputy coordinator for the Reports and political affairs section. He works with the management team to lead the U.S. government's diplomatic engagement on sex trafficking and forced labor. Chad's team researches and analyzes how to best combat trafficking and engages foreign government officials in Washington and abroad to promote the adoption of effective policies. The section is responsible for the production of the secretary of State's annual Trafficking in Persons Report, the TIP Report as it's known, is the U.S. government's principal diplomatic and diagnostic tool to guide relations with foreign governments on human trafficking. Prior to this managing role, Chad served as an analyst on the same team with primary responsibility for countries in Europe and Asia. He joined the State Department in 2011 as a Presidential Management Fellow. Chad was born in Rochester, New York and earned his B.A. in International Relations from the State University of New York at Geneseo and has an M.A. in International Affairs from the George Washington University's Elliott School of International Affairs. Chad, we are so, glad to welcome you to the podcast.

Chad: [00:02:16] Well, thank you very much for having me.

Sandie: [00:02:18] We're excited to have a conversation that you and I have been trying to put together for a few months. But the annual Trafficking in Persons Report is a significant document that has emerged as a valuable evaluation tool. And also, for my students and a lot of my listeners,

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In this episode, Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss the Biblical and historical story of Joseph and how it relates to human trafficking survivors today. Sandie observes how we can integrate an understanding of this ancient case study into how we fight against human trafficking and respond to survivors in our communities. Key Points

Sandie looks at the story of Joseph through the perspective of Genesis 16:8 when the angel of the Lord said, “Hagar, slave of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?” Similar to Joseph, human trafficking victims typically have dreams of success when they're young, causing them to be more likely to take risks and experience dangerous situations. When Joseph weeps at the sight of his younger brother, he exemplifies how successful survivors are still susceptible to sorrow and grief over their past. Understanding where people have been is not only important for rehabilitating human trafficking victims, but also in improving our relationships in our own communities. Sandie says, "And I am always reminded that while bad things happen to good people and those things can be redeemed, that we don't attribute the cause of those bad things to God, but God does redeem." [00:08:55]

Resources

Genesis 16:8 Genesis 37-50

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 191, Joseph: An Ancient Human Trafficking Case Study.

Production Credits: [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning., maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. And as you expect on each episode of the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, Sandie we're taking everyone to Broadway today, right? I think that's what you told me.

Sandie: [00:00:53] Yeah that's right. That's right and you're going to start us off with the theme song.

Dave: [00:00:57] Go go go, Joseph. You know what they say. Hang on now Joseph you'll make it someday. Sha la la Joseph. That's the one we're doing, right?

Sandie: [00:01:06] That's it. That's it. Wow. How many of you remember coloring the coat of many colors from the story of Joseph.?

Dave: [00:01:15] Yes of course of course. I remember my brother singing that soundtrack all around the house. He was Joseph in production in our local community.

Sandie: [00:01:23] Oh my goodness. Well you know this month, every year at our church I'm asked to speak on Freedom Sunday. January is our National Slavery and Human Trafficking Prevention Month. And so, I just came back from Istanbul last week and then on Sunday was able to bring awareness and understanding about some of the issues around human trafficking and use a case study from the Book of Genesis. And that's where Joseph comes from people. He was not dreamed up in a graphic artist studio. He was a historical figure.

Dave: [00:02:10] And interesting about this story a lot of us are familiar with it either because of our Sunday School curriculum or because we've seen the Broadway show and the popularized version of it. But one of the really interesting things about this story is, although it is an ancient story, how many similarities there are with some of the things we see in modern-day trafficking, aren't there?

Sandie: [00:02:34] Absolutely. And I think one of the things,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Ramona Braganza, celebrity trainer and global fitness expert. Ramona shares her 30-year journey of wellness, and how she is using her passions and expertise to contribute to the fight against human trafficking. She shares her goal of providing real-world education and skills training in the health and wellness sector to young female survivors caught in the vicious cycle of India’s Sexual exploitation and trafficking business through a North American based non-profit organization she established, 321 Empower. Key Points

According to the Thomson Reuters Foundation, approximately 20,000 women and children were survivors of human trafficking in India in 2017, a rise of nearly 25 percent from the previous year. Ramona empowers victims on a personal level and manages to give them job skills for a growing 1.8 billion dollar fitness industry in India, that's mostly dominated by male fitness trainers. 321 Empower is a perfect example of how anyone can start right where they are, with the expertise and skills they already have, to be a voice and make a difference in ending human trafficking.

Resources

321 Empower Ramona Braganza Prerana Feel Fit, Look Fantastic in 321 Fitness, Food, and Financial Freedom Event

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Production Credits: [00:00:08] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:28] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:34] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:36] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, every time we get together we are either having a conversation ourselves or we're bringing in a conversation with a partner, someone else in the world who is doing some incredible work on helping us to end human trafficking. We've had so, many amazing partnerships and conversations that have emerged over the years. And this conversation is going to be similar, right?

Sandie: [00:01:04] That's right.

Dave: [00:01:06] I am so, glad to be able to welcome to the show today Ramona Braganza. Ramona is a celebrity trainer and global fitness expert, and maybe most known for sculpting hot Hollywood bodies including that of Jessica Alba's and Halle Berry's, but also, for her love of fitness and her quest for excellence that has facilitated the transformation of hundreds of people's bodies and attitudes worldwide. Recognized as one of the top personal trainers in the world among the entertainment industry. Ramona has worked as Jessica Alba's personal trainer for over 12 years and continues to train many other celebrities. Ramona has over 30 years in the fitness industry and has contributed editorial content to a dozen magazines including Shape, Marie-Claire, Men's Health, Allure, Fit Pregnancy, and many others. She is also, a regular contributor to The Huffington Post. And she has established 321 Empower, a North American based non-profit organization with a goal of providing real-world education and skills training in the health and wellness sector to young female survivors caught in the vicious cycle of India's sexual exploitation and trafficking business. Ramona, we are so, glad to welcome you to the show.

Ramona: [00:02:19] Thank you very much. I'm excited to be here and thank you very much to Dr.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak inquire about lessons learned from The Lighthouse, a transitional living program for young women who are survivors of sex trafficking, from the program supervisor, Polly Williams. Polly has over 18 years of experience in all aspects of working with youth including those experiencing homelessness, mental health challenges, and substance abuse. She developed and implemented Orangewood Foundation's The Lighthouse in 2016 using a framework of trauma-informed care, harm reduction, and a survivor-centered approach. Polly introduces a thoughtful report and review of 11 learned lessons from this program. Key Points

At The Lighthouse, a victim-centered approach is giving the power back over to the trafficked victims and empowering them to say what their needs are, what their concerns are, and for them to lead survivor-driven services. #1 Labels - It is important to take an individualist approach to labels because some residents embraced being labeled as "victim" or "survivor", while others were reminded of their past traumas. #2 Curriculum - Having a daily, structured curriculum held residents back from societal reintegration, an individualized program was needed to empower the women. #3 Trust - At The Lighthouse, there's a large emphasis on trust to promote safety, security, and ultimately to reduce detrimental behaviors through a "restorative justice approach". #4 Cell Phones - Creating safety protocols together, both residents and staff, prevented controlling actions that triggered and re-traumatized residents. #5 Staff - Having staff that can provide guidance and suggestions rather than being hyper-vigilant is significant in creating a therapeutic environment. #6 Life Skill Development - They found that role modeling life skills is more effective and impactful in comparison to life skill groups. #7 Resident Guidelines - Residents and staff collectively create guidelines in order to have realistic expectations for each other and create a sense of empowerment. #8 Case Management - Residents responded more favorably towards case management when meetings occurred offsite at their chosen locations. #9 Interviews - During interviews they do not require details of time in ‘the life’ and take breaks when needed in order to minimize risks of re-traumatization. #10 Applicants Under 18 - An applicant aged 17 years, turning 18 within the next month, has the option to spend her days at The Lighthouse, to relieve the stress and anxiety of moving to a new program. #11 Reducing Length of Time Back in ‘The Life” - When a resident chose to self-exit The Lighthouse and go back to her trafficker, staff pro-actively remained in contact. The goal was to reduce her length of time back in ‘the life’, through the provision of compassionate and unconditional support, and two months later she asked to come “home.”

Resources

Orangewood Foundation The Lighthouse Report & Review 91 - Rescue and the Stages of Change

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 189, Lessons Learned Serving Domestic Survivors of Sex Trafficking.

Production Credits: [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak speak with Lieutenant Joe Laramie about the difference between multidisciplinary teams for child abuse and sex trafficking, the challenges associated with MDT, and the direction we need to move forward with. Joe is the program manager with the National Criminal Justice Training Center of Fox Valley Technical College working in the Missing and Exploited Children's and the Internet Crimes Against Children Training and Technical Assistance Programs. With more than 30 years of child protection, investigation, and training experience he sheds light on this topic with a fresh perspective. Key Points

MDT, or multidisciplinary team, accentuates that approaches with collaborative work are more beneficial than individual work. The main difference between an MDT for child abuse and an MDT for child sex trafficking is the expanded team members in trafficking investigations. Challenges of MDT include scheduling time and location, professional attitudes, forensic interviewer training, the role of a victim advocate, and medical evaluations.

Resources

Lotus Anti-Trafficking Model

36 – Why Healthcare Providers Matter and What They Can Do

185 – Educational Resources for Health Care Providers

Net Smartz

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 188, Building an MDT for Victims of Child Sex Trafficking.

Production Credits: [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, you've been empowering me for eight years of learning new things on this topic and we will be down that road again today because the acronym MDT is in the title of this episode. I have absolutely no idea what that is and I'm guessing some in our listening community also, do not know what that is. So, this is going to be an education for all of us today, I believe.

Sandie: [00:01:07] Good, I always love it when I can teach you something new.

Dave: [00:01:11] We have, as always, an expert with us today that is going to really help open up the doors and help us to even learn more about this complex issue. I'm pleased to welcome an expert to the show today and that is Lieutenant Joe Laramie. He is the program manager with the National Criminal Justice Training Center of Fox Valley Technical College working in the Missing and Exploited Children's and the Internet Crimes Against Children training and technical assistance programs. He retired in 2010 from the Glendale Missouri Police Department with more than 30 years of child protection investigation and training experience. During his time with the Glendale PD, he was Police Juvenile Officer and child abuse investigator, a D.A.R.E. officer, and in 2001 created the Greater St. Louis Internet Crimes Against Children (ICAC) Task Force. He is nationally known as a speaker on the topic of online child exploitation, child sex trafficking, and technology related protections for youth families and professionals. Lieutenant Laramie, we're so, glad to welcome you to the show.

Joe: [00:02:15] Well thank you so, very much. I'm really excited to have this opportunity today.

Sandie: [00:02:20] We should start right at the beginning with putting Dave out of his misery here and let's talk about what is an MDT,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Rena Shahandeh and Anh Truong to shed light on the most infrequently discussed topic in human trafficking, labor trafficking. Rena is the Deputy City Attorney assigned to the Los Angeles City Attorney’s Office’s Anti-Sex and Labor Trafficking Program. She has over 20 years with the City Attorney’s Office. Anh is the Director of the Anti-Sex and Labor Trafficking Program within the L.A. City Attorney’s Office. Rena Shahandeh

Rena Shahandeh (SHA-HAN-DAY) is the Deputy City Attorney assigned to the Los Angeles City Attorney’s Office’s Anti-Sex and Labor Trafficking Program. She has over 20 years with the City Attorney’s Office. As a trial deputy in the criminal branch, she handled domestic violence, assaults with a deadly weapon, battery, and driving under the influence cases. She quickly worked her way up to the specialized gang unit, where she was assigned to the Northeast and Pacific Community Law Enforcement and Recovery (CLEAR) units. There, she prosecuted the City’s most hardcore gangs, including MS, 18th Street, Avenues, Venice Shoreline Crips, among others. Most recently, Rena was in the civil branch defending complex, high-profile LAPD civil rights cases in both state and federal court. Notably, she defended LAPD from a civil lawsuit filed by the traffickers in the notorious Guatemalan sex trafficking case involving juvenile girls. Rena has also defended against class actions, including one involving 5,700 plaintiffs. She has served as lead trial counsel in over 60 jury trials. Rena was previously awarded the Wiley W. Manuel Certificate for her pro bono legal work for Bet Tzedek on a home equity fraud class action. She was also recently appointed to the Judicial Appointments Committee of the Los Angeles County Bar Association for a 3-year term. Rena graduated from UCLA School of Law and earned her bachelor’s degree at UC Berkeley with honors and high distinction in philosophy. Anh Truong

Anh Truong is the Director of the Anti-Sex and Labor Trafficking Program within the LA City Attorney’s Office. He previously served as the Assistant Supervisor of the Citywide Nuisance Abatement Program, focusing on civil enforcement actions to rid problem properties of narcotics, gangs, and vice activity. As trial and appellate counsel, Anh obtained a series of favorable published decisions, especially with respect to medical marijuana. He is a recipient of the Anti-Defamation League’s 2017 Sherwood Prize for Combating Hate for his work on the San Fernando Valley Peckerwoods, a white supremacist gang. With respect to human trafficking, Anh is currently chair of the Labor Trafficking Subcommittee of the Los Angeles Regional Human Trafficking Task Force, and he previously served on the LA Metro Taskforce on Human Trafficking. He drafted legislation to expand civil abatement laws to address human trafficking (AB2212; Pen. Code, § 11225). He has also filed civil abatement actions against motels that have served as bases for human trafficking, narcotics, and other illegal activities. Prior to joining the City Attorney’s Office, Anh was with Alschuler Grossman Stein & Kahan LLP, focusing on securities, business, and entertainment litigation. While in law school, Anh consulted for the Appointed Los Angeles Charter Reform Commission as well as the Pasadena Charter Reform Taskforce on recommended changes to their respective city charters. Anh was a former Los Angeles Coro Fellow, and previously served as City Attorney James K. Hahn’s Special Assistant. Anh graduated from U.C. Berkeley’s Boalt Hall School of Law, where he received the American Jurisprudence Award in Complex Civil Litigation. He graduated from Occidental College with honors in Public Policy. Key Points

Common misconceptions of labor trafficking include the differences between smuggling and trafficking, victims having to be physically confined,

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss the value of collaboration with Helen Sworn, founder of the Chab Dai organization in Cambodia. Helen has provided a replicable framework that emphasizes the need for partnership in order to end human trafficking. Key Point

Chab Dai established a coalition as a response to the rapid but uncoordinated growth of anti-trafficking individuals and organizations trying to combat the issue. The framework for being part of the coalition includes legal government registration as a way to provide accountability and child protection policies in order to ensure no harm to victims. Helen speaks of the significance of collaboration, "I think that I have to kind of start with the problem that we're addressing. And I truly believe that the reason that people are able to be trafficked and exploited all over the world, and it's so interconnected around the world, is because those criminals that are behind it are super well networked. And that they don't need to like each other, they don't need to be friends, but actually, they have a common vision and that enables them to focus on their networking... And so, for us, collaboration has to underpin every single thing that we do." Finding common ground is how we can collaborate. Our common ground is not about serving these institutions, it's ultimately about serving those who we have set out to serve. Building a movement is important because this issue is going to outlast our lives and maybe even organizations. But the movement is our legacy, so in building the movement we have to focus on collaboration and capacity.

Collaboration: There is no one sector that can address this problem, so people need have a multidisciplinary view on it. Capacity: In order to hold each other accountable, we must have professional standards that are a guiding set of principles, rather than a set of rules, that can be adapted to fit within specific contexts.

5 Pillars in Chab Dai's strategic plan:

Coalition and Capacity Prevention and Protection Justice and Client Care Advocacy Research

Resources

Chab Dai Butterfly Longitudinal Research Ensure Justice

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave: [00:00:01] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 186, Building a Coalition and Building Capacity.

Production Credits: [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, we often talk about the power of partnerships on the show and today a conversation with someone who is a tremendous leader in this way.

Sandie: [00:00:58] Well, I am so, excited to introduce my dear friend and colleague, Helen Sworn. She is the founder of Chab Dai and absolutely has been a model for me to follow how she does international programming, how she builds partnerships. And so, we're just going to dive right in, Helen, and welcome you to the show.

Helen: [00:01:23] Thank you very much. It's great to be on is Sandie, with you.

Sandie: [00:01:26] OK. And for those of you who just heard Helen for the first time, she's located in the UK, but she has lived in Cambodia for many years as well. So, tell us about Chab Dai and kind of the meaning and the history.

Helen: [00:01:44] Sure, so, Chab Dai in the Cambodian language means "joining h...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak revisit the important influence of health care providers on human trafficking victims. They discuss new resources that have moved away from awareness, and into a more training focused aspect in order to identify and assist a trafficking victim. They discuss the significance of health care providers creating a four-step plan to assist victims through a safety plan, knowing how to refer, understanding mandatory reporting, and establishing a protocol. Key Points

S.O.A.R. (stop, observe, ask, and respond to human trafficking) has provided new resources for health care providers, see below. The first part of a plan to assist victims is safety. A safety plan can include having resources available to give victims. Along with this, is knowing how to refer victims to the proper resources. The next step for health professionals is understanding the mandatory reporting requirements and steps to take for a victim-centered approach. Protocols are complicated and require a lot of processes, quality assurance, and a legal team. However, once that is in place, frontline health care providers will be empowered to actually identify and assist human trafficking victims.

Resources

S.O.A.R. Training Brochure for Health Care Providers Brochure for Health Care Providers - Spanish National Human Trafficking Hotline Card Human Trafficking Training for Nurses Video 36 – Why Healthcare Providers Matter and What They Can Do 59 - One Love for Nurses

106 – Health Consequences of Human Trafficking

159 - What is a Medical Home?

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Production Credits: [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie as we were preparing for today's conversation on educational resources for health care providers, we were discussing some of the past episodes that we've aired. Actually, a bunch of episodes specifically diving in with health care providers and some of the resources available and this prompted me wondering well what is new? What's the reason for us revisiting this topic? And It turns out there's a whole bunch of things that are new, aren't there?

Sandie: [00:01:16] Absolutely. I think there is a growing sense that our health care providers are seeing victims of human trafficking, both sex trafficking, and labor trafficking, and they need more tools to help them identify to assess and to take some sort of action. And I think one of the early episodes that we did on this was with Laura Letter. Her research has become seminal in pushing this agenda forward. One of the initiatives that are out there, and I'm going to pull it up really quick, is the infographic that S.O.A.R. did. S.O.A.R. is stop, observe, ask, and respond to human trafficking. And so, when people are approached in a health care environment, administrators, directors, nurses, doctors the first thing they want to understand is why do we need to do this. And the infographic that S.O.A.R. put together actually identifies two basic premises. One is that the number of endangered runaway youth that are likely to be sex trafficking victims is one in six of those runaways...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak are joined by Nicole Wood, the Program Advisor for the U.S. Department of Homeland Security’s Center for Faith and Opportunity Initiatives, to discuss the recently published toolkit from the U.S. Department of Homeland Security's Blue Campaign. It includes five areas of trauma-informed principles that can be implemented within a house of worship as well as resources for faith leaders and their communities. Key Points

The Toolkit's purpose is to do a better job of communicating messages that are practical, actionable, and usable for our faith leaders. Faith leaders need to be equipped with resources because they are trusted messengers, force multipliers, cultural keep holders, community investors, and most importantly influence their congregations as well as the broader community. Trauma-informed principles to implement within a house of worship:

Safety - Create a private, safe environment and set a positive tone through interactions. Trustworthiness and transparency - Build trusted and transparent relationships without judgment. Peer support - Social networks and support are necessary for transformative impact. Empowerment, voice, and choice - It's important to recognize and build upon the individual's ability to make their own decisions. Cultural, historical, gender issues - Be mindful of racial, ethnic, gender, and cultural past traumas and present needs of individuals.

There is value in alerting law enforcement of a possible human trafficking situation, rather than personally intervening, in order to prevent causing more harm to the victim and allowing professionals to take the appropriate measures moving forward.

Resources

Faith-Based and Community Toolkit Blue Campaign Sweat and Toil App Ensure Justice Conference

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Production Credits: [00:00:08] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:34] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, so many people we've had on this program over the last gosh it's almost over seven years now that we featured that have been such wonderful partners in the work that we're doing and the work that you're doing. And today another wonderful partner who has been a long-term friend of yours and someone who's been a big supporter of the work that we're all trying to do. So, I'm glad we get to welcome Nicole today.

Sandie: [00:01:12] Yes. And Nicole comes to us with when I first met her, she was actually part of the leadership of the Faith Alliance Against Slavery and Trafficking and then she left us and is now the program advisor for the U.S. Department of Homeland Security's Center for Faith and Opportunity Initiatives. It's a center of the White House Office of Faith and Opportunity. And Nicole's service as a subject matter expert and strategist and communication outreach on meeting the needs of survivors of disasters and human trafficking domestically and internationally. And she works with senior-level officials and the broader community on the traumatic impacts, underlying causes, how to prevent the harms of human trafficking and natural and man-made disasters. So, her work on training and technical assistance and...

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Kelsey Galaway, the founder of Willow International, shares her strategic plan that is implemented in Uganda with Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak. She emphasizes restoration, partnership, and prevention as interrelated strategies that are necessary to work together in order to create a holistic program to combat human trafficking. Resources

Willow International Freedom Collaborative The Human Trafficking Institute 137 - Interview with Prosecutors

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 183, Restoration Partnership and Prevention in Uganda.

Production Credits: [00:00:10] Produced by Innovative Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, I am so, impressed with how much work you have done over the years and how much work the Global Center for Women and Justice has done over the years to build so, many partnerships around the world. And today's conversation is yet another example of wonderful partnerships that are working together with us to really address this issue.

Sandie: [00:01:07] Well I'm very excited to introduce to our show Kelsey Galaway, founder and executive director of Willow International. Kelsey, welcome.

Kelsey: [00:01:19] Thank you.

Sandie: [00:01:20] so, let's just dig right in. When I think of the word Willow, I think of one of those really big overarching trees that where the leaves reach all the way to the ground. And I imagine that there is probably some sense of connection with that image in the selection of the name of this organization. So, will you tell us about Willow International, what it is? What does it do?

Kelsey: [00:01:51] I'd love to! And our name comes from one of the Psalms and it talks about when the Israelites were going into captivity or slavery that they hung their harp on the willow tree. And I read a commentary about that and it said that part of the Israelite's identity is that they were worshippers and when they went into slavery they didn't want their captures to take advantage, to exploit their identities. So, they put their instruments on the willow tree for safekeeping so, that when they were released from slavery they could walk into that identity, pick up their instruments, and worship again. And so, that's part of the core of who we are at Willow, is that we are a safe haven and a protector so, that when people are released from horrible situations of exploitation, they can walk into their God-given identity again.

Sandie: [00:02:45] Well how did you end up in Uganda? I mean you're a California girl, right?

Kelsey: [00:02:51] I am yeah. I grew up in Orange County and my whole life I wanted to travel to Africa. Just one of the places since I was a kid that I wanted to go to. And I went on a mission trip when I was 17 with Rockharbor Church in Orange County. And it was quite the contrast from what I knew growing up and I loved every bit of it. But it also completely challenged my worldview.

Sandie: [00:03:19] Challenged your worldview. I need to know more about what that means.

Kelsey: [00:03:24] Oh that's a whole other podcast in itself.

Sandie: [00:03:26] Let's just take a three-minute detour because I think we do have like these really established worldviews where we think we know what we're talking a...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak reflect on all that the Global Center for Women and Justice are involved with because of Ending Human Trafficking listeners! Partnerships with agencies, organizations, industries, leaders, and listeners far and near really do broaden the message for ending human trafficking and support the vision of the GCWJ! By supporting the podcast, you are directly supporting these programs and the growth and impact of the GCWJ, thank you. Key Points Through the support and resources from partnerships, GCWJ has been able to implement:

Resources

The Global Center for Women and Justice Ensure Justice Handle with Care 168 - Drug Endangered Children: Handle with Care 175 - Study the Issues in Athens, Greece 96 - Coaching Live2Free Peer Educators Project Kinship in Santa Ana

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Production Credits: [00:00:09] Produced by Innovative Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. And you are making a difference in ending human trafficking by listening to this show, by continuing to study the issue So, that you can be a voice and make a difference in this issue. And you by virtue of the fact that you're listening to us right now, you are a supporter of the work that Sandie does, the larger strategy of the Global Center for Women and Justice, and of course, most importantly ending human trafficking. So, thank you on behalf of both of us, thank you for listening, supporting us whether this is the very first time you've listened to this episode or you've been listening with us all along since we began back in 2011. And we wanted to do something a little bit different with this episode. We have just completed the annual Priceless Event, Sandie. And it's an important time for the center as far as strategic vision forward and what's next. And we wanted both to spend some time today to thank you as a supporter of us for where we have gone thus far. And perhaps as important if not more importantly where we are going next, right Sandie?

Sandie: [00:01:59] That's right. And Priceless was an amazing opportunity to celebrate the work that we're doing, to cast a vision for the future, and to really join forces with our community. And the people that attend are from all walks of life, Attorneys, judges, police officers, women business leaders, men in the business. They were all there and my husband was there. And baseball player Albert Pujols was there. His wife, DeeDee Pujols, was our keynote speaker.

Dave: [00:02:37] Past guest on this show.

Sandie: [00:02:40] That's right. And he came to show his support for her and she did knock it out of the park, it was amazing. As she drew attention to the fact that we not only need to have restorative programs for victims, but we need to have programs that help the most vulnerable become more employable and have a future.

Dave: [00:03:05] Sandie, it's also, such a great example of partnerships So, much of the work that they have done personally as a family but also, has translated to more visibility through the Angels organization and even through a day at the park last year.

Sandie: [00:03:19] Strike out Slavery. We were there the week before,

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Joining Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak to discuss holistic care is Stephanie Taylor. Stephanie is the Program Coordinator for The Salvation Army’s Anti-Trafficking Services Program in Orange County, is part of the core leadership team for the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force, and is an Adjunct Professor at Vanguard University teaching the importance of holistic after-care services to human trafficking victim-survivors. Key Points

Holistic care addresses the needs of a person, both biopsychosocial and spiritually, by bringing value to the whole person, seeing them as more than their trafficking victimization. Strengths-based aftercare is approaching a survivor with the knowledge that they have survived their difficult circumstances and can now use the strengths they have adapted to heal from the trauma they've experienced and thrive as an individual beyond their trauma. Survivor-informed is a constant learning experience for everyone in the field to learn from the survivors themselves. This includes using surveys, feedback, and their opinions so that we can shift programs based off of someone that's experienced the program.

Resources

The Salvation Army Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force

23 – Victim Needs Served by the Salvation Army

138 – The Role of Victim Advocates

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 181, Strengths-based and Survivor-informed Aftercare.

Production Credits: [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. And Sandie today we have a friend with us.

Sandie: [00:00:47] That's right. I'll let you introduce her.

Dave: [00:00:50] I am glad to welcome to the show today Stephanie Taylor. She is the program coordinator for the Salvation Army's Anti-trafficking services program in Orange County. She serves as part of the core leadership team for the Orange County human trafficking task force and works with the United States Department of State International Visitors Delegation providing training on best practices in Orange County addressing human trafficking to delegates from countries around the world. Through a grant awarded by the California Office of Emergency Management Services, Stephanie travels throughout the state providing training to law enforcement and victim advocates on identifying victims of human trafficking, along with best practices, and serving victims of human trafficking after they have left their trafficking situation. She also, works as an adjunct professor at Vanguard University teaching the importance of holistic aftercare services to human trafficking victims survivors. Stephanie, we're so, glad to welcome you to the show.

Stephanie: [00:01:51] Thank you so, much. Thank you so, much for the invite.

Sandie: [00:01:53] Well you have such a broad experience base, you lived in a Phnom Penh for a while as well working with international human trafficking issues, correct?

Stephanie: [00:02:05] Yes. That's kind of what launched me into going back to grad school and being able to get an education, so, I could serve the population.

Sandie: [00:02:12] Well when we think about providing aftercare for human trafficking the idea of holistic care comes up over and over again,

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For part two, Dr. Jackie Parke joins Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak again to further discuss resilience in adversity. Jackie is a licensed psychologist and Assistant Professor of Psychology at Vanguard University in Southern California who focuses on resilience-building among youth, evidence-based treatment for mental health disorders, and refugee mental health. Jackie provides more insight into the 5 factors related to resilience and how we can help build resilience in others. Key Points

According to Grotburg, resilience is “the human capacity to face, overcome, and be strengthened by or even transformed by the adversities of life.” The five factors related to resilience are social support, coping and self-regulation, problem-solving, hope and a sense of purpose, and meaning-making. Social support is the idea that someone has a team, a group of people who are trustworthy, who love them, who care for them unconditionally, and who are there for them. Coping and self-regulation is the idea that people have a menu of choices at their disposal so that when they are experiencing strong emotions, they can make choices about how to self-regulate and cope with those emotions. Problem-solving is being able to clearly identify a practical life problem, being able to generate multiple potential solutions for that problem, and then being able to experiment by trying one of those solutions. Hope and a sense of purpose will drive them forward in a positive way into the future. This involves having goals for the future, having aspirations, being able to dream about the type of life that they want to have or the type of person that they want to be. Meaning-making is being able to look at our life and what's happened in the past, what is happening now, what might happen in the future, and being able to assign meaning in a way that is accurate but is also life-giving and hopeful.

Resources

The Role of Resilience When Facing Adversity: Part 1 Dr. Jackie Parke Resilience Factors and Strategies

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Production Credits: [00:00:08] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:28] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:33] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:36] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, on the last episode we began a conversation with Dr. Jackie Parke on the role of resilience when facing adversity. And today she is back to continue that conversation and to really do a deep dive on some of the building resilience factors, some of the critical ones that we should know about. And so, for those who didn't listen yet to Episode 179, if you didn't, by the way, you can go back and listen, what should people be remembering from our previous conversation, Sandie?

Sandie: [00:01:15] Well, Dr. Jackie Parke is amazing and her experiences, you can go back and listen to her bio, but she is also, a colleague and valued friend at Vanguard University. And her work with adolescents and with refugees, she just brings a wealth of experience and I love the definition she introduced us to on the last podcast. So, welcome back Dr. Jackie Parke, and why don't you remind us of the definition of resilience that we're working with.

Jackie: [00:01:48] Sure, So, we were talking about a definition of resilience that I...

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Dr. Jackie Parke joins Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak to discuss the role of resilience in lives with high-risk factors. Jackie is a licensed psychologist and Assistant Professor of Psychology at Vanguard University in Southern California who focuses on resilience-building among youth, evidence-based treatment for mental health disorders, and refugee mental health. Together they examine risk factors and protective factors that influence a person's vulnerability, as well as how resilience plays a role in their future. Key Points

According to Grotburg, resilience is “the human capacity to face, overcome, and be strengthened by or even transformed by the adversities of life.”

Risk factors include individual, family, and social or community characteristics that are associated with increased vulnerability in a person’s life.

Researchers think that the total number of risk factors a child experiences may weigh more heavily on vulnerability than the particular type of risk factors they experience.

Protective factors include the individual, family, and social or community characteristics that are associated with positive adaptation. Two of the five factors related to resilience are social support and coping or self-regulation skills (factors continued in Part Two).

Resources

The Role of Resilience When Facing Adversity: Part 2 Dr. Jackie Parke Resilience Factors and Strategies

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 179, The Role of Resilience when Facing Adversity: Part 1.

Production Credits: [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, I don't know how often we say the word resilience, but certainly, that word comes up for me just about every time we record an episode of thinking about not only the resilience that all of us need in this work against human trafficking. But of course, the resilience most importantly of the people who are affected by this. And I'm really thrilled to welcome our guest today. She's a pal of ours at Vanguard University and her name is Jackie Parke. Dr. Jackie Parke is a licensed psychologist who serves children, adolescents, college-age young adults, and their families. She's currently an assistant professor of psychology at Vanguard University of Southern California. Her clinical and research areas of focus include resilience building among youth, evidence-based treatment for mental health disorders, and refugee mental health. And I know she's going to really be helpful to us Sandie on some more perspective on this. Jackie, we're so glad to welcome you to the show.

Jackie: [00:01:45] I'm so excited to be here. Thank you both for having me.

Sandie: [00:01:48] Well Jackie, when I first met you, you opened a door for me when I'm working particularly with survivors and aftercare for human trafficking but also with a lot of my kids who have come out of some kind of domestic violence situation because one of the things I've seen is trauma-informed care is very helpful. But why are some of my kids doing really well and others not? And it was like you showed me the next step. So that's why I was so excited to have you bring that to our listeners, so welcome to our show.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak invite Sara Catalan, deputy chief of staff, to the show. They discuss women in government and how that impacts human trafficking. As well as how women can take steps to get more engaged with politics.

Key Points

When crafting policy for the future, it's important to know history in order to avoid repeating the mistakes from our past. Modernizing legislation is a critical component in the fight against human trafficking by giving law enforcement the tools they need to stop the traffickers. For young people wanting to make a difference, research and preparation are crucial. It is also important to learn your own interests, motivations, and passions by always accepting any opportunity that comes your way. A great first step for women to get involved in political positions is to get engaged locally through appointed offices.

Resources

TIP Report California Women's Leadership Association

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Production Credits: [00:00:08] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:28] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:33] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:36] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, longtime listeners of this show even listeners who have just come to the show will recall and remember how much we talk about partnership, partnership at every level of organization and in government. And today's guest I know is going to be helpful to us in really some of the perspective on how to advocate especially in government.

Sandie: [00:01:04] Absolutely. We are so happy to welcome Sara Catalan, deputy chief of staff to Representative Ed Royce to our show. Sarah, thank you for joining us.

Sara: [00:01:17] I'm excited to join you.

Sandie: [00:01:19] Well when I first met you through Congressman Royce's office you were leading and directing and setting up all kinds of exciting opportunities for our community to engage with your office. And even though the congressman spent most of his time in Washington D.C. and I began to understand the role that you have as very influential and very significant to the issues that your office supports. And it reminded me a few years ago when our U.N. general secretary on International Women's Day. And I've never told you this, Erin I've known you now for years, but when he's said General Ban Ki-Moon said that countries with gender equality with women leaders perform better. I thought of you because you are such a presence in the congressman's office, and locally in Orange County, and then by extension to Washington D.C. You've been a leader in policy advocacy on anti-human trafficking, so kudos to you. How many years have you been in this role?

Sara: [00:02:44] Well thank you, Sandie. That was very nice of you. I've worked for the congressman for 16 years.

Sandie: [00:02:49] Wow, that's pretty outstanding. And when I think about some of the major accomplishments just in anti-human trafficking, I think you are the organizer and maintainer of the advisory committee. Can you talk about that just for a moment?

Sara: [00:03:11] Sure. I think the way that our office approaches human trafficking is a little bit different than some other local representatives and that's because as you know Congressman Ed Royce is chairman of th...

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak consider the impact of patriarchal attitudes. They make evident that everyone has a responsibility of moving forward the equality of women, in order to create progress for all. There are three actions that men specifically can take to begin empowering women and engaging in a process that's going to break down patriarchal stereotypes. Key Points

Three actions men can take to start empowering women are to create a space for women in leadership, demonstrate authentic value and respect for what a woman brings to the table, and nurture talents and gifts so that women can grow in their own right. According to research from the U.N., countries with more gender equality have better economic growth. Countries with more women leaders perform better. Peace agreements that include women are more durable. Parliaments with more women enact more legislation on social issues such as health, education, anti-discrimination, and child support. A triangle to model empowerment includes opportunities, access, and achievement. Opportunity without access is not true equality. However, with both opportunity and access, you can have the third closing line of achievement, and we want to see achievement.

Resources

Scars Across Humanity

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 177, Three Actions Men Can Take That Move Us All Forward.

Production Credits: [00:00:10] Produced by Innovative Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, glad to be back with you for another conversation on how we can inch forward, jump forward, occasionally crawl forward, but move forward on this issue as we are always working to do every time we get together.

Sandie: [00:01:02] And it's such a complex issue, Dave. So, I enjoy the opportunities we have when it's a discussion between the two of us and we're able to explore some of the less direct aspects of this. And I was really privileged to do an author interview with Dr. Elaine Storkey for her new book Scars Across Humanity and it might be something you'd be interested in reading although it's a little depressing.

Dave: [00:01:33] Well, we're seven years in on this podcast and I'm still feeling positive about what we're doing so I can handle a little depression.

Sandie: [00:01:42] Well in her book she discusses the scope of the problem of violence against women and the impact of patriarchal attitudes. And I keep hearing this same theme as people are in the #metoo movement, transition from Boy Scouts of America to Scouts of America. The idea that we have to break down some of those generational attitudes of patriarchy, men over women. So, I thought it would be interesting to really start there. When I asked Dr. Storkey about where violence against women starts she said and I'm going to quote this from her, "It starts in the womb, in places like India and China where boys are valued more than girls for reasons of religion, family, and economics. This leads to girls being aborted at alarming rates, starts in the womb. In other countries, we see the practice of female genital mutilation to assure sexual purity for marriage. And the next horror I found was child marriage, little girls violated by their husbands,

Scars Across Humanity: Understanding and Overcoming Violence Against Women

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss Sandie’s recent visit to an asylum center in Athens, Greece. They shed light on the challenges for refugees to receive asylum and the continued hardships of integrating into a new culture. They also discuss how asylum seekers are causing challenges for the country itself.

Key Points

Greece's geography, proximity, and of course being adjacent to the ocean makes it the country of destination for asylum seekers. Greece is a country of 11 million people. About five million are of the age where they're working and unemployment is about 30 percent. So you have an economically stretched country that is tasked with receiving hundreds and thousands of these refugees. About 47 percent of refugees will receive asylum. And by asylum, that means they have a residency permit, protection rights, their kids can go to school, and they can work while they wait for the final decision.

5 myths surrounding asylum are: the refugee crisis is over, we can easily separate refugees from economic migrants, telling human stories is enough to change people's minds, the crisis is a threat to European values, and history is repeating and there's nothing we can do about it.

Resources

143 - Why Was Sandy in Istanbul? Greek Forum of Refugees The UN Refugee Agency

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Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 176, Field Trip to the Athens Asylum Center.

Production Credits: [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is David Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. On the last episode we talked about studying the issues in Athens, Greece and we explored some of the big pictures, goals, and outcomes that came out of Sandie's recent trip there with the Global Center for Women and Justice team. And we talked about student involvement and so many of the takeaways that happened. On this episode, we're going to zero in on a much more of a micro conversation, Sandie, on one particular piece and one particular experience of being in Greece during that time. And we're going to really look at in some detail the asylum center that you visited.

Sandie: [00:01:27] I tell you when we arrived at this center and we saw the way the gate is positioned with the kind of metal guides like you were in line to go through security at the airport and it just whines and whines, back and forth. And knowing that refugees show up there at 6 o'clock in the morning waiting for the office to open at 8:00 a.m. trying to get in first. And they have their whole family with the mom, dad, three or four kids and they're waiting there to get inside. And to begin to understand what that means. And you know, you think about asylum, finding a safe place that you can legally stay. That's the goal. And so many of the pictures that are emblazoned on our minds from the news reports of boats capsizing and people being pulled out of the water to safety. That's just the beginning because now they have to figure out how to build a new life, and they need to build it in a safe place.

Dave: [00:02:45] I have so many things I'm curious about the experience and the experience of the center, Sandie. I'm curious first, and I know there's not an easy answer to this question, but who are the refugees who show up in this line.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss Dr. Morgan’s recent trip to Athens, Greece. She explains what her team did and shares her personal experience, including the high and low points.

Resources

Bridges Humanitarian Initiative

Salvation Army - Green Light Project

UN National Rapporteur - Greece Ministry of Foreign Affairs

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Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 175, Study the Issues in Athens, Greece.

Production Credits: [00:00:08] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in Ending Human Trafficking. Sandie, one of my favorite things about you is that in addition to being a scholar and being one who has helped us to study these issues so much in depth over the years, as we've talked about many times on this podcast, is that you are someone who is also out there doing amazing work on the ground. Multiple times a year you are flying around the world, meeting people all over the place, forming partnerships. And I think this is probably the sixth or seventh or eighth episode we've had talking about one of these incredible trips and journeys you've been on. And today we're going to look at what you've learned and the value of really engaging young people in some your work. You were just recently back in Athens, Greece and I'm really excited to hear about your adventure this time and what came out of it for both you and also the people you visited.

Sandie: [00:01:42] Well I always loved going back to Athens, and just a big shout out to my friends and colleagues there, because they always make sure that we eat well. You realize Mediterranean cooking is the best way to go. And so big shout out to them. This was our second year to do a partnership with two non-profit NGOs, they're humanitarian initiative bridges and Salvation Army. And so, the global center literally cosponsored, co-organized a series of conferences while we were there. But I didn't just go, I took a whole team with me. And I think one of the things that I especially appreciate about being at Vanguard University in an academic setting doing anti-human trafficking work is education has to be an across the generational process. So, bringing students with me instead of going and doing it and then coming back and telling them in the classroom and giving them a quiz, it's an entirely experiential learning. And the value goes way beyond data that they learn. But it's transformative in their worldview and in their relationships across borders.

Dave: [00:03:13] I'm so curious. Who are the students that went with you? Like what are their backgrounds and what kind of students do you pull from? And I'm also curious, what do you tell students in advance, like how do you set them up for an experience like this of going across the world and engaging in efforts on ending human trafficking?

Sandie: [00:03:34] You know Dave, every year I try to get better at preparing them for what they're going to face no matter what country we're going to. And it never fails to astound me at how shocked they are when we actually get there and see the circumstances. But we do prepare. They have reading things they do before they go. Everybody that goes on a Global Center for Women and Justice trip takes Intro to Women's Studies so that they understand...

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak talk to Dr. Sibylle Georgianna about sexual compulsivity and discuss common misconceptions. Key Points

Even if there is a lack of consensus on how to define problematic behaviors, sexual compulsion needs to be taken seriously. Even if free will exists, the complexity of the impact on (drug induced) addiction on women's’ sexuality cannot be underestimated. The presence of an addiction impairs decision making (including the ability to consent). Even if problematic behaviors stop, a comprehensive treatment and multi-faceted level of support to replace addictive behaviors with long-term, holistic health is needed. Underdeveloped decision making, information processing, and lack of emotional maturity (including trauma bonding) are likely in individuals affected by trauma and addiction.

Resources

Ensure Justice resources Sign Up to access the PATHOS Screening Tool theleadershippractice.biz sexualhealthoc.com

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 174. Dr. Sibylle Georgianna Misconceptions About Sexual Compulsivity.

Production Credits: [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, one of the great assets I believe that we have at the Global Center for Women and Justice, is the academic work and research that's so much a part of us being integrated highly into the higher education institution at Vanguard University. And of course, a big part of our work is studying the issues. And I'm so glad today that we have a guest who's an expert in studying these issues that will really help us to also get some really new perspective on something I don't think we've talked about much before.

Sandie: [00:01:25] Absolutely. So, I'll let you take it away and introduce her.

Dave: [00:01:28] I'm pleased to welcome to the show today Dr. Sibylle Georgianna. She is a clinical psychologist and the founder of The Leadership Practice and its affiliates sexual health of Orange County California. As a certified sex therapist, certified sex addiction therapists, certified clinical partner specialist, and certified EMDR therapist, Sibylle is treating teens and adults experiencing sexual difficulties and compulsions. She is also an assistant faculty of Vanguard University of Southern California, where she teaches and oversees the graduate research programs of Vanguard's masters of organizational psychology students supposed research and publications are focusing on self-regulation and self-leadership. She enjoys her family surfing and Southern California's weather. We're so glad to welcome you to the show, Sibylle.

Sibylle: [00:02:09] Thank you for having me. The weather, I had to put that in the description.

Sandie: [00:02:14] Yeah, well and I know you know you come from an area in Europe where it's much colder, right?

Sibylle: [00:02:20] Yes, I grew up in Germany and went to school there and it was very much like the northern and north-west coasts here in the United States. So, I appreciate any little bit of sunshine that we can get here.

Sandie: [00:02:32] Well, for me it's been such a delight to get to know you this year and I'm so glad you're at Vanguard. And you spoke it Ensure Justice where we began a conve...

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak talk again to Harmony Dust about her book Scars and Stilettos and the work she is doing with Treasures, a Los Angeles, CA, based outreach and support group for women in the sex industry. Key Points

The commercial sex industry is ANYWHERE sex is being bought or sold, including porn, stripping, escorting, prostitution, dominatrix, and many others. 89% of women in the sex industry want to leave but feel like they don’t see any other option. There is a very small percentage of people who chose to be in the sex industry by preference, but they are a very loud group. Make sure any survivor who wants to share their story is truly ready, that they’ve put in the work in their own healing journey.

Resources

37: Interview with Harmony Dust Treasures Scars and Stilettos by Harmony Dust Coaching for Leaders podcast Multipliers by Liz Wiseman

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Production Credit: [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, one of the many opportunities and blessings we have of having this show going now for seven-plus years, is that we've been able to learn and grow along with many of our guests and today we are going to be welcoming back a past guest to the podcast, who is continuing to learn and grow herself. So, this is an adventure and a constant state of learning for all of us as we so focus on in the Global Center for Women and Justice, don't we?

Sandie: [00:01:18] Yes, I'm really excited. If you didn't meet Harmony Dust before, go back and listen to podcast number 37. Harmony is the founder and executive director of Treasures, a Los Angeles, California based non-profit organization for women in the sex industry. When completing a master's degree in social work at UCLA in 2003, Harmony founded Treasures as a dream born from a broken past and a heart healed by the love of God. Treasures is the first and only organization of its kind in the adult industry capital of the world, San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles County and one of the few survivor-led organizations in the country. The mission of Treasures is to reach, restore, and equip women in the commercial sex industry and victims of sex trafficking in order to help them live healthy, flourishing lives. And we'll talk some more about the Treasures outreach as we engage. But welcome to the show Harmony.

Harmony: [00:02:25] Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's good to be back.

Sandie: [00:02:28] Well I'm really excited because when I heard that you had written a Scars and Stilettos second edition I preordered my copy and it came last week.

Harmony: [00:02:41] Yay.

Sandie: [00:02:41] It's so, so exciting. Tell us what's new in it.

Harmony: [00:02:46] Yeah, well first and foremost people who are familiar with the first edition will notice the facelift, a completely new design and just updated with the times. But also in addition to that, there is a new epilogue, some new endorsements. And I went throughout and re-read the entire thing and was able to just use the past almost 10 years of experience since I wrote the first edition to insert new insights that I've ha...

Multipliers, Revised and Updated: How the Best Leaders Make Everyone Smarter

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss the effects adverse childhood experiences can have on a person’s entire life. They also share tools that can be used to measure the impact these experiences can have and also the factors that influence a person’s resilience. Key Points

Childhood experiences are predictors of future health. People self-medicate for their anxiety, depression, and fear in different ways. Depending on a child’s ACE score, it can be predicted that they will have a life of up to 20 years shorter. Drug addicted parents usually love their children, but their addictions steal away the relationship with their children. Remember the connection between prevention of adverse childhood experiences and the reduction in the risk of being sexually trafficked.

Resources

ACE Quiz Adverse Childhood Experiences Resilience Questionaire 169: Dr. Jodi Quas: Communicating with Child Victims of Trauma TEDMED talk: How childhood trauma affects health across a lifetime Ensure Justice Conference Videos

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Haven't been receiving our newsletter? Visit our homepage to join today.

Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 172, Adverse Childhood Experiences and Building Resilience.

Production Credits: [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, today we're going to take a look at a model that came out of a study from a number of years ago and you have an assessment under my nose as well that I have a feeling I might be taking here shortly.

Sandie: [00:00:59] Well, there was a study that began with the Center for Disease Control and Kaiser. And it's called the ACE Study, adverse childhood experience, and the concept was that we have childhood experiences that are predictors of our future health, including mental health, behavioral health, everything. And even how opportunity works in our life. And so, we want to look at this as a predictor of how we better serve the most vulnerable for becoming victims of human trafficking or how that experience actually informs how we support victims and intervene on their behalf.

Sandie: [00:01:48] And so the first thing we're going to do is look at the actual survey tool that's used, and it's called an ACE quiz. I've used it in my classes for years, especially when I first started teaching family violence because if you understand how that child, who is involved in a situation beyond their control, how that impacts their future then you can better create strategies for prevention and early intervention.

Sandie: [00:02:18] And so I've printed this quiz. It's only 10 questions, and you will have a link for you to download it. But Dave I want you to take this, while I read the questions so everybody understands the direction that we're going with this. You take the quiz and then we'll ask you what your score is.

Dave: [00:02:39] Ok I'm ready.

Sandie: [00:02:40] The first question, did a parent or other adult in the household often or very often swear at you, insult you, put you down, or humiliate you, or act in a way that made you afraid that you might be physically hurt? So, you answer yes or you answer no. And if it's a yes, it's one point. The next question, did a parent or other adult in your household often or very often push, grab, slap,

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak talk to Dr. Hilary Chester about the work she is doing with the Catholic church to fight human trafficking, including long-term care and working with less visible victims like offshore fisherman. Resources

Coalition of Catholic Organizations Against Human Trafficking Christian Organizations Against Trafficking 17: California Transparency in Supply Chains Act Seafood from Slaves

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 171. Dr. Hilary Chester and the USCCB Anti Trafficking Program.

Production Credits: [00:00:12] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, one of the things I love about talking with you every other week is getting to meet so many wonderful advocates, and trailblazers, and folks that have so much enthusiasm for this as we do. And today we're going to be connecting everyone else with the relationship you've had for a long time.

Sandie: [00:01:06] Yes, I'm really excited to welcome Dr. Hilary Chester to our show.

Dave: [00:01:11] Dr. Chester directs the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops Anti Trafficking Program. The ATP has several initiatives including a national education and awareness raising campaign directed to immigrant communities, a federally funded program to deliver stabilizing and sustaining services to foreign national victims of human trafficking, a federally funded project to build global awareness and the capacity to respond to victims of human trafficking and exploitation in the maritime industries, and a new program to provide specialized employment services to survivors of trafficking in the U.S. as well as the ongoing development and delivery of training curricula to national and international entities. That includes law enforcement advocacy and service providers, evaluations and quality improvement planning for service delivery and outreach programs, and of course research and advocacy. The ETP consults for the U.S. government on child trafficking cases and response to technical assistance requests.

[00:02:12] Dr. Chester has over 12 years of experience working with vulnerable migrants including unaccompanied children, victims of human trafficking and refugees. Program management, social science research, and evaluation. She is a member of the global COATnet, Christians Organization Against Trafficking steering committee, and has been an invited member of the national and international working and advisory groups on human trafficking migrant children and alternatives to migrant detention. She received her doctorate in anthropology from Southern Methodist University. Dr. Chester, we're so glad to welcome you to Ending Human Trafficking.

Hilary: [00:02:50] Thank you. I'm excited to be here. I'm really excited to have the opportunity to share what we're doing at the Bishops conference, and to see where there may be other people that are interested in what we're doing and cross-promoting with what Sandie's been doing.

Sandie: [00:03:03] I loved our e-mail conversation and I actually captured the quote under your e-mail signature, "creating a world where immigrants, refugees, migrants, and people on the move are treated with dignity, respect, welcome, and belonging.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak talk to Chad Napier about the devastating impact drug use has had in his community and the dangers of synthetic drugs. Key Points

West Virginia leads the nation in drug overdose National average is 19.8 per 100,000 but West Virginia is 52 per 100,000 Babies with Neonatal Abstinence Syndrome need to be weaned off the drugs after birth Whenever there is a prescription pill problem, there is going to be a heroin problem (80% of heroin users come from prescription pill abuse) Drug users often say that it’s no longer about being high, it’s about not getting sick from withdrawals Fentanyl (a highly potent synthetic drug) is cut into almost every drug out there We need to start looking at why people use drugs in the first place.

Resources

166: The Science of Addiction with Dr. Michael Hanna Handle With Care Neonatal Abstinence Syndrome

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, this is episode number 170, Chad Napier: Drug Trends and Risks in Our Communities.

Production Credits: [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:36] My name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, we've been spending the last couple of episodes of hearing from some of the experts that we had at the Ensure Justice conference this year in 2018. And today, another expert that is going to again challenge us with some new thinking and help us to study the issues, such an important mission of what the Global Center for Women and Justice is all about. Right?

Sandie: [00:01:09] Absolutely.

[00:01:11] I am so glad to welcome to our show today Chad Napier. Chad is the prevention coordinator for Appalachia HIDTA, which is the high-intensity drug trafficking area for West Virginia and Virginia since 2015. Prior to this position, he spent 20 years in law enforcement and retired back in 2015. In 1997, he was assigned to the CPD street crimes unit with the primary duties of investigation, arrest, and prosecution of street-level drug deals. For three years he was assigned as a detective with the Metropolitan drug enforcement network team, with the primary duties of investigation and prosecution of state and federal drug violations. He was later appointed the commander of the Metropolitan drug enforcement network team. He's worked on hundreds of drug-related arrests and drug violations. And he's also been declared as an expert witness in illegal drug possession and distribution in many state and federal courts. Chad we're so glad to welcome you to Ending Human Trafficking.

Chad: [00:02:12] Thanks for having me.

Sandie: [00:02:13] We're so excited. Originally, I tried to do an interview with you and your partner with Handle with Care, Andrea Karr. But we already interviewed her a couple episodes ago and now I'm really glad that you weren't both available because we need more time with each of you individually. So, welcome. Let's start off with learning a little bit more about what does it mean, the HIDTA, what does that really entail.

Chad: [00:02:44] HIDTA stands for High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area. So, there are 28 HIDTAs across the country, and I work for Appalachia HIDTA. And Appalachia HIDTA is in West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee. And Virginia. But HIDTAs are funded by the Office of National Dr...

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak talk to Dr. Jodi Quas about children dealing with chronic stress. When helping children who are under chronic stress, we need to realize that many of their behavioral problems are symptoms of the stress, not just because they are poorly disciplined. Key Points

Acute stress is normal, and humans can deal with it and recover quickly. Chronic stress leads to long-term health and behavioral issues. Chronic stress causes many problems in children, and can manifest itself in apparent behavioral issues like inattention. Some of the stress responses that cause problems outside of the home are actually beneficial to surviving in a high-stress home. Children who suffer trauma are more likely to interpret people’s expressions as anger.

Resources

Jodi Quas - UCI Faculty Site UCI Center for Psychology and Law Email: jodiquas@uci.edu

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, this is episode number 169, Dr. Jodi Quas: Communicating with Child Victims of Trauma.

Production Credits: [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, one of the things I'm most grateful for over the years of knowing you, is just the wonderful lessons you bring in connecting me and us with so many experts out there. And as I mentioned in the introduction, studying the issues is a huge mission of the Global Center for Women and Justice and particularly around the issue. And today we have an expert from her own backyard, here at the University of California Irvine, that I know is going to really challenge us with some new thinking. And I'm so excited for our conversation today.

Sandie: [00:01:18] I'm looking forward to it.

Dave: [00:01:21] We're glad to welcome Dr. Jodi Quas to the show today. She is a professor of psychology and social behavior at the University of California Irvine. Her work focuses on children's eyewitness capabilities, consequences of legal involvement on child victims, witnesses, and defendants, and children's and adolescents coping with stress maltreatment and trauma. She teaches and conducts training for academic and professional audiences worldwide on these topics. She has received numerous awards for her research and student training, including the scientific early career contributions in developmental psychology from the APA, and the outstanding mentoring award from the American Psychology and Law Society. Dr. Quas, we're so glad to welcome you to the show today.

Jodi: [00:02:05] Thank you so much. I'm absolutely delighted to be able to speak with you and to hopefully learn from you, while also sharing some of my thoughts.

Sandie: [00:02:13] Well Jodi, you and I have known each other for a few years. I think Judge Maria Hernandez introduced us, and every year I grow to appreciate more the expertise that you bring on how we can use your knowledge, your expertise, your research when we work with youth who are at risk for trafficking or have been trafficked, because communicating with victims of trauma has some minefields in it. For those of us who just want to go in, we want to help you and we've got stuff for you, and then we're really disappointed when they don't respond well. Because we think our motivation is fantastic and they s...

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak talk to Andrea Darr from Handle with Care West Virginia about her state’s drug crisis and the effect it is having on its children. She also shares the ways the Handle with CARE program helps these children. Key Points

West Virginia is ground zero for the opioid crisis. People are more likely to die from a drug overdose in West Virginia than in any other state in the county. The origin of the opioid crisis was when physicians would give physical laborers (loggers, coal miners, etc) pain killers instead of surgery or physical therapy just so they would get right back to work. Sometimes helpers unwittingly traumatize children. For many misbehaving children, they would be better served by being sent to a school therapist than the school principal The 3 parts of a Handle with Care program: Get Law Enforcement on board, make schools trauma-informed, have therapists on site at the schools.

Resources

Handle with Care AHIDTA 124: Prevention- Trauma-Informed and Transformational Schools More about ACE

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Production Credits: [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

[00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:34] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:36] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. And today's guest, Sandie, is going to be such an important addition to our ongoing conversation on ending human trafficking. And also, very much connected to the theme upcoming for the Ensure Justice conference.

Sandie: [00:00:57] That's right. And by the time you're listening to this podcast, Andrea and her colleague, Chad Napier, will have been presenters here at Ensure Justice. And you'll have to go back and review that, and make sure you sign up for 2019.

Dave: [00:01:13] Well we are really pleased to welcome Andrea Darr to the show today. She is the director of the West Virginia's Center for Children's Justice, which promotes and supports a statewide trauma informed response to child maltreatment and children's exposure to violence. Before devoting her work full time on children's initiatives, Andrea served as the coordinator of Victim Witness services for the West Virginia Prosecuting Attorneys Institute from 2005 to 2015. Andrea's also worked in direct services with victims of crime violence and abuse, while serving as the victim liaison in the Konneh County Prosecuting Attorney's Office. Andrea we're so glad to welcome you to Ending Human Trafficking.

Andrea: [00:01:56] Well, thank you so much for having me today.

Sandie: [00:01:59] So we're going to dig right into this podcast content because there's so much information that we'd love for you to explain for us. My first question is, can you explain what a drug endangered child is?

Andrea: [00:02:17] Sure. Drug endangered children are children whose lives have been adversely affected by their parents or caregivers, youth manufacturing, trafficking illegal substances. So, their children that experience a wide range of abuse and neglect because of the substances. For the most part, a neglect really stands out in this because a lot of times when people are addicted to drugs, you know that's their focus, that's their primary focus. It's the first thing they think about in the morning.

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak talk about a great way to promote human trafficking awareness during basketball’s March Madness. Join in on the #SlamDemand hashtag! How to get 3 points for #SlamDemand

Post a #SlamDemand factoid on social media. Put the National Human Trafficking Hotline number 1-888-373-7888 in your phone. Download the Sweat and Toil app for iPhone or Android.

The #SlamDemand Toolkit

#SlamDemand Factoids (the Q-Guide) Quickstart Guide to Ending Human Trafficking (ebook) #SlamDemand sticker template How to print the stickers

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Production Credits: [00:00:08] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:28] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:34] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:36] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. And scoring a three-pointer now and then, right Sandie.

Sandie: [00:00:47] That's right. You know of all of the sports, basketball was always a little more assessable for me as a very vertically challenged person. I know that sounds a little counterintuitive, but I was a good guard in middle school because people tripped over me.

Dave: [00:01:08] Used it to your advantage.

Sandie: [00:01:09] Yeah. There you go. And then people didn't expect me to actually shoot, but I could do a decent layup. So, I like watching basketball, it moves fast, the games are always really energetic, and I just love basketball. So, when the anti-trafficking world started using sports as a platform for increasing awareness about human trafficking like Nicosia did #tackledemand during the Super Bowl. So, when a lot of people are focused on a sport, there's a brand-new audience for us to start talking to about human trafficking. And we've got to spread and broaden our reach. And during baseball season Deidre Pujols launched #strikeoutslavery in 2016. So, this year at Vanguard University our Live to Free students, launched #slamdemand at a doubleheader, I don't know if they say that in basketball, but two games in one night, and at our Vanguard gym. And it was so much fun. And our students were posting on social media. Our athletes were doing their best jump shots to slam dunk, and the focus was on all forms of human trafficking. So, I thought, let's equip our community with the toolkit we put together for that event at Vanguard. March Madness is coming up. Do you know what that is?

Dave: [00:02:52] I do know what March Madness.

Sandie: [00:02:53] Well tell us about it.

Dave: [00:02:55] The NCAA tournament that happens every year for college basketball, it's you know they get down to Sweet 16, and the Elite 8, and the Final Four, and eventually there's a national championship. I don't know what city it is in this year.

Sandie: [00:03:08] It's in San Antonio this year.

Dave: [00:03:10] Oh good. So yeah, it's quite the event and especially the couple days with the first and second rounds are going on, so many people across the country are watching it and tuning into it. So, it really seems like a logical place, Sandie, to come alongside and to raise awareness. And that actually brings up a point as we're of course really big on prevention. And I know you say a lot about we need to move beyond just awareness but in this case a slightly different focus, right?

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak talk to Dr. Michael Hanna about how addiction is actually a brain disease and that treating addiction is a very complicated task that involves the mind, body, and soul. Key Points

The 5 Cs of Addiction: Control (loss of), Compulsive use, Continued Use, Consequences, and Cravings Addiction is a loss of control and continued use despite negative consequences. Addicts already know it’s bad for them — you don’t need to convince them. Most addicts don’t get the high that they used to — they’re just trying to maintain a sense of normalcy. Addiction is not a willpower issue — it is a physiological response.

Resources

Addiction is a disease. We should treat it like one. Transcending addiction and redefining recovery | TEDxBoulder Brain Function can Recover after a Year of Abstinence from Methamphetamine All in Our Heads: How the Brain Creates Addiction

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 166, The Science of Addiction with Dr. Michael Hanna.

Production Credits: [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:33] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:36] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, just about every episode we do try to zero in on all those, and sometimes a specific one. And I have a feeling today studying the issues and learning more about especially addiction, is going to be key as far as a big takeaway from this conversation.

Sandie: [00:00:58] Well I'm excited to have as our guest, my colleague from Vanguard University, Dr. Michael Hanna. And he teaches at Vanguard neurobiology and he was a neurobiology lab teacher at UCI, he was adjunct faculty at Mount San Antonio Community College and Los Angeles Trade Technical College before he came to Vanguard. And he has a lot of experience in substance abuse, neurological disorders, developmental disorders. And he is also involved in tutoring and college prep programs for high school youth in Orange County. So, he's absolutely our kind of guy. I sat down with him and had a conversation, and all the things that I want to read now, I am just so thrilled. Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast, Michael.

Michael: [00:01:57] Thank you very much for having me.

Sandie: [00:01:59] So let's start off with our first question. What is an addiction?

Michael: [00:02:06] One of the ways I like addressing addiction is by C's because unfortunately a lot of times we use that term addiction so lightly. You know I'm addicted to ice cream, I'm addicted to candy, but I think five C's kind of comprise what real addiction is. And one of them is a loss of control, this inability to stop whenever you want to. And most people that are actually addicts, will tell you I really do want to stop but I just can't. So that's one of them. You know this compulsive drug use that's kind of the second thing that I think of. And then a big one is continued use, despite negative consequences. People even though they know that it's just harming their lives and it's just causing all of these problems, and they logically notice stuff, they continue to use this. And then the last one that I think of is this strong craving for these drugs. And you know some that are just almost impossible or very difficult to overcome these cravings.

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss the relationship between substance abuse and human trafficking. They also talk about drug use among youths and the best way to prevent. They wrap up by discussing the 2018 Ensure Justice conference and explain its focus on preventing substance abuse. Key Points

Overdoses have surpassed car crashes as the main cause of death among young people. The number-one cause of child abuse is a family member with a substance abuse issue. People use drugs to self-medicate for pain in their lives. The earlier kids start trying drugs, the more likely they are to develop an addiction. It’s important to train health-care providers how to spot human trafficking victims because 87% of trafficking victims had been seen by a provider. Prevention is best done through peer-led education.

Resources

www.terminandoconlatrata.org Ensure Justice 2018 Live2Free

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 165, The Intersection of Substance Abuse and Human Trafficking.

Production Credits: [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:34] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, so many of us have been hearing about substance abuse, and so many of the issues here within the states and within North America around substance abuse. And there's just so many ways this plays out in our society right now. And of course, I guess I shouldn't say of course but I don't think it's going to be a surprise, that there's a link to human trafficking as well too. And I think we're going to spend some time really exploring that in today’s conversation.

Sandie: [00:01:11] So the intersection between substance abuse and human trafficking is becoming a highly discussed topic now. With the media attention to the opioid crisis, we know that overdose as a cause of death has overtaken car crashes for young people. And that was a huge transition last year when the 2016 stats came in. And now we begin to see how it plays out in so many other areas. For me personally, it became a huge commitment to start planning Ensure Justice 2018. Back in January 2017, I was in the Orange County We Can Coalition meeting, and Dr. Anne Light read some information that they had pulled from some of their strategic planning as they reviewed what were the risk factors for child abuse in Orange County. And the number one thing they identified is a family member with an addiction, with a substance abuse issue. And for me that was like click, dominoes Falling. Because it's kind of like reading a book where you get to a page and if you choose this page then you go on and you see the next part of the story or if you go over here you'll see this and this. And so, when she said that because in the We Can coalition we're trying to work to end child abuse and neglect. And those of you who have been listening for a long time to Ending Human Trafficking, you know that prevention of child abuse is a huge piece of ending the commercial sexual exploitation of children. Because if a child is abused, if a child is neglected there are so many repercussions. And we see then that they become more vulnerable to being recruited. They become more likely to run away from the violence or they're taken out of the home for a very good r...

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss the power of the #SilenceisNotSpiritual movement and the best ways to implement changes in our own communities. Key Points

#SilenceisNotSpiritual is different than most movement hashtags because it requires people to sign a commitment that they will stand with women and for women. 75% of harassment victims experience retaliation. If you are going to help a women escape a violent situation or file a sexual harassment lawsuit then you also need to be willing to stand by them during the fallout. If community and political leadership are heavily populated by men, does that affect its response to harassment of women? Many churches that have policies that allow women in leadership don’t actually have any women in those positions.

Resources

http://www.silenceisnotspiritual.org/ The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey https://www.211oc.org/ Gerda Lerner Center for Biblical Equality

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Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 163, #SilenceIsNotSpiritual: Breaking the Silence on Violence Against Women and Girls.

Production Credits: [00:00:12] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:32] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:40] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, we certainly couldn't not say something about this topic, with everything that's been going on in the media and in the news over the last five or six months. There's so much happening, there's so much conversation going on. We're at the very beginning of a revolution which has needed to happen. And yet there is so much complexity here. And yet today we're going to try and tackle one piece of this. And one way that one organization is responding. And I think that there will be some takeaways for all of us on how we can think about this differently, especially here in the New Year.

Sandie: [00:01:25] I've heard someone say this is a defining moment in history. Here in the news, we see it felt like for a few weeks like there was a sexual harassment revelation every single week and someone lost their jobs. And how do we respond to that? And one of the things that a group of my close friends began to look at is how do we as women respond in a context that we're part of our churches. And so, it isn't about alienating ourselves from media, or even pointing fingers at men who are bad, and things like that, but really taking the opportunity with this attention to look at issues that surround violence against women and girls. And this is really important from the Ending Human Trafficking perspective because we know that when we look at prevention models, many of the girls who end up in being trafficked had an experience either with sexual abuse as a child with sexual assault that left them in a vulnerable position, and may have run away or found themselves in a place where they were much more recruitable or even abducted. Manage all of those things, you can you can go back and listen to some of those podcasts.

Sandie: [00:02:52] But how do we be proactive now? And so, this group has launched #SilenceIsNotSpiritual. And the first time I heard the hashtag idea, I thought oh that sounds like Sin by Silence. And Sin by Silence is the name of a documentary that Vanguard alum, Olivia Klaus Morrogh,

The 7 Habits on the Go: Timeless Wisdom for a Rapidly Changing World (Keys to Personal Success)

View Details

Jenny McGee from Starfish Projects shares about why it’s so important to build sustainable businesses and teach women high-level job skills. She explains how Starfish Projects exists to help women experience freedom, establish independence, and develop careers. Key Points

Sometimes it can take years to get a person to join the program. Many of the girls in brothels have been tricked by family members and relatives. A key to success is to surround yourself by experts in different areas. Many fair trade jewelry companies provide jobs through handcrafting their products but the jewelry tends not to last long.

Resources

Starfish Project Coaching for Leaders podcast

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Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 162, Jenny McGee Explains the Starfish Business Model for Serving Survivors.

Production Credits: [00:00:12] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:32] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. The podcast is produced out of the Global Center for Women and Justice here at Vanguard University. And Sandie, it is a special month here in January 2018 when we're airing the show.

Sandie: [00:00:58] I am always excited when January rolls around and it's not because I get a new calendar, it's because it is National Slavery and Human Trafficking Prevention Month. And this month we are on a roll, we're doing a podcast every week. And Dave, thank you so much for the extra support so we can do this to celebrate January for prevention.

Dave: [00:01:20] The pleasure is mine and I'm so glad we have yet another expert here today who's going to give us another perspective in a particular demonstrating a sustainable business model that goes beyond rescue. And we are pleased to welcome Jenny McGee to the show today. She is the executive director and founder of Starfish Project, a social enterprise dedicated to restoring hope to trafficked and exploited women and girls. She has worked and lived in Asia with her family for over 15 years and has been helping women experience freedom, establish independence, and develop careers. Jenny, we're so glad to welcome you today.

Jenny: [00:01:57] Yeah thank you for having me, I'm happy to be here.

Sandie: [00:02:00] Well I was privileged to meet you in person a couple times this last year. And each time I met with you I was more impressed with the excellent business model that you have. Being at Vanguard I have lots of young students and alumni who want to go out and do something meaningful, and I want them all to learn how you have done it because you've used a holistic care program that really does take into account the whole rescue aspect of helping women out of this. But at the same time, you're working towards a long hard goal that is going to sustain the women and also your business models. So, do you want to tell us a little bit about what Starfish is?

Jenny: [00:02:56] Yes so like you said, I've lived in Asia for 15 years and started an organization, and it's really about three things helping women experience freedom, establish independence, and develop careers. So, at Starfish Project we have outreach teams to go out into the red-light areas, visit the women and girls there. And that's all ages, we see girls as young as 12 years old,

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak talk to Brandon Stiver about how having his own family totally changed his perspective on caring for orphan children and why family-based care is so much better than orphanage-based care. Key Points

Tanzania’s official policy is actually family-first, but that doesn’t always play out in reality. The vast majority of children that end up in alternative care really shouldn’t be there in the first place. 90% of children in orphanages worldwide have at least one living parent. An orphanage should be the last resort — there are many other options for children. Orphans often become a commodity for orphanages because they help raise money.

“It is the belief of Kingdom Families in accordance with Tanzanian policy as well as scripture that family-based care is the highest standard of care for a child. We believe that every child has a right to be raised in a family.”

—Brandon Stiver Resources

Kingdom Families Faith to Action Initiative

Transition to Family Based Care Manual UN Guidelines on the Alternative Care of Children The Law of the Child Act for Tanzania National Guidelines for Improving Quality of Care, Protection and Support for Most Vulnerable Children National Plan of Action for MVC in Tanzania

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 161, Orphan Care in Tanzania with Brandon Stiver.

Production Credits: [00:00:09] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:29] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:34] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:37] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, so glad to be back with you here in the new year. And today a conversation I know that will be yet another lens that is so important for us to know about on elements that relate to human trafficking. And I know Brandon is going to really provide a lot of perspective on care for children. And we talk a lot about children on this podcast of course, but Brandon is going to I know bring us a new perspective. He is an alum of Vanguard University, where the Global Center for Women and Justice of course here is based. And Brandon Stiver grew up on the central coast of California and has been working in orphan care in Tanzania since 2010. Originally working at a Christian orphanage for a couple of years, Brandon realized that even the best of institutions fall dramatically short of meeting the child's deepest and most intimate needs. Brandon's deepest desire for Kingdom Families is to continue seeing orphaned, vulnerable and abandoned children restored to God's first construct, the family. Brandon lives in Moshi, Tanzania with his wife Melissa and their three children. Brandon, we're so glad to welcome you to the show.

Brandon: [00:01:58] Thanks it's really great to be on.

Sandie: [00:02:00] It was especially exciting for me to have him visit Vanguard this fall, and speak to my commercially sexually exploited class. And I think one of the things I noticed about him first when he turned on his slides and started presenting. And of course, my students are focused on prevention and globally when we look at issues of slavery and human trafficking, children are some of the most marginalized. So when he started his slides the first thing I noticed is that there were no pictures of him surrounded by smiling orphans. And I thought Brandon,

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak talk to Panagiotis Papadimitriou to discuss the important work he is doing at UNODC. They discuss the legal database and research he is conducting. They also talk about the difference between human trafficking and migrant smuggling and why it is so critical to understand the distinction. Key Points

Much of UNODC’s work revolves around developing studies and conducting research. UNODC’s target audience is people involved in the criminal justice processes. UNODC maintains a database that allows practitioners to search for past cases to use as a reference. Many people, including government officials, confuse and conflate human trafficking with migrant smuggling. Human trafficking revolves around the key concept of exploitation. Human smuggling involves moving from one person to another location illegally, but this often leads to human trafficking. Trafficking victims often have more protections than illegal migrants.

Resources

United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime Global Report on Trafficking in Persons

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Production Credits: [00:00:08] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:35] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, one of the great benefits that I've gotten just on a purely selfish level over the years of being a cohost on the show with you is learning so many things about the world, organizations that you've partnered with Sandie, and so much about this issue. And one of the institutions that I've learned a little bit about in that time is the United Nations. And I'm really excited today to be able to learn more about a part of the United Nations I'm very unaware of and I think our audience will learn a lot too. And today's guest comes from the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, and his name is Panagiotis Papadimitriou. Panagiotis is a Crime Prevention and Criminal Justice officer working in the human trafficking and migrant smuggling section of the Organized Crime Branch of the division of treaty affairs under the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime headquarters. He joined Sandie in Athens, Greece for the conference on human trafficking during the Greece summer study abroad. And Sandie, that was this past summer wasn't it.

Sandie: [00:01:51] That's right. And we've been invited back. So welcome to the show. We'll dispense with formalities and we're just going to call you Takis because you've become a great friend and we have learned so much from you since meeting you in Greece this last summer.

Panagiotis: [00:02:09] Thank you very much, Sandie. I have to say I'm very glad to be here with you and talk to you. And actually, it was a great pleasure for me to join you in Athens. And I have to tell you that I have learned an equal lot if not more than you did through my participation there.

Sandie: [00:02:29] You are very kind. First of all, though, let's tell our listeners about what the UNODC actually is and why combating human trafficking is situated in that office in Vienna.

Panagiotis: [00:02:44] Well you know this is first of all the department of the Secretariat of the United Nations and is actually the department that is man...

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak talk to Dr. Ron Chambers about the importance of teaching physicians proper patient care systems for trafficking victims in order to build better medical homes. Key Points

Few medical students receive human trafficking training. We need to meet the need of the patient population not just in the first days or weeks, but long term. Community agencies are often wary of bringing victims to medical providers because they are afraid the victims will be re-traumatized. Many victims leave safe houses because the environment is so unfamiliar. You need to be able to meet victims where they’re at. Do they need physical help or mental health services? We must be prepared to provide both. Young men and boys are an underserved trafficking victim community.

“The physician education, training, and development of a human trafficking victim medical home developed at the Dignity Health Family Medicine Residency Program has been conceptualized and implemented with incredible success. We hope to spread the concept to residencies clinics throughout the country and standardize human trafficking victim and survivor care in physician education and training across the country. It is a viable solution with the potential to synergistically provide widespread healthcare that coincides with training the physicians of tomorrow to recognize and treat this vulnerable patient population.” —Dr. Ron Chambers Resources

Dignity Health Human Trafficking Clinic Human Trafficking Response Program Manual

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 159, What is a Medical Home? An interview with Dr. Ron Chambers.

Production Credits: [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:34] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:39] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:41] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, each episode we work to bring something that's most relevant to our listening community or to bring a guest that will really help us to expand our knowledge. And today is no different. I'm excited

Sandie: [00:01:05] I am too, Dr. Ron Chambers is a program director DIO at Family Medicine Residency Program Chair and his work at Mercy Family Health Center and Mercy Human Trafficking Clinic is to me just very cutting edge and it's emerging best practice. So, we want to welcome Dr. Chambers to Ending Human Trafficking.

Ron: [00:01:30] Well, thank you for having me.

Sandie: [00:01:32] OK so one of the quotes that I have from you that was kind of a catalyst that made me want to go and see what you were doing, so I actually went and visited Dr. Chambers in Sacramento when I was up there for the California Sociological Association conference. And he said, "the physician education, training, and development of a human trafficking victim medical home developed at the Dignity Health Family Medicine Residency program has been conceptualized and implemented with incredible success. We hope to spread the concept to residencies clinics throughout the country and standardize human trafficking victim and survivor care in physician education and training across the country. It is a viable solution with the potential to synergistically provide widespread health care that coincides with training the physicians of tomorrow to recognize and treat this vulnerable patient population.

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak talk about TAG, which stands for “Think, Act, Grow.” TAG is a “multi-sector approach that challenges organizations and professionals to improve adolescent health through a strengths-based, positive youth development approach that emphasizes youth engagement.” Key Points

The TAG initiative acknowledges the limitations of the adolescent brain but it also focuses on the unique strengths that adolescents bring. Adolescents are very quick to learn. How do you use the ability to learn quickly as a point of resilience for adolescents? There is now a rush to create a curriculum to support adolescents, but many of the creators don’t understand the whole picture. Prevention usually has the least amount of resources devoted to it. Adolescents can easily find information, but they need help processing it. Risk can be a positive thing because it leads to growth. Youth leading youth is much better than adults telling them what to do.

Resources

109: Prevention – Saving up for a Rainy Day The Adolescent Brain videos TAG Toolkit Teen drug abuse facts The Power of the Adolescent Brain The Power of the Adolescent Brain - Discussion Guide The Power of the Adolescent Brain - Additional Resources National Institute on Drug Abuse for Teens

2018 Ensure Justice Conference Click here to register! Are you enjoying the show? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to subscribe or rate the podcast on iTunes by clicking here. Click here for FAQs about podcasts and how to subscribe.

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Production Credits: [00:00:10] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:30] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:36] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:38] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, make a difference in ending human trafficking, and not duplicate the things other people are doing right, Sandie.

Sandie: [00:00:50] That's right.

Dave: [00:00:52] We talk a lot on this show about the desire that all of us have to help and to serve. And in particular around the challenges of this issue the willingness that so many people have Sandie who hears about the dangers and horrors and awful stories around human trafficking to jump in right away and help. And one of the messages we've had is a consistent story over the last few years, story is maybe not the right word, but is to educate all of us on the fact that before we jump in with both feet and work to help one of the best ways we can help is often aligning with the resources, agencies, organizations that are already doing things. That rather than us reinventing the wheel, we can support in a very strategic way and I believe that today's conversation Sandie we're going to really jump into that again as a reminder for us through a different lens.

Sandie: [00:01:53] Absolutely. And I have to tell you that when I discovered TAG, I really looked at myself first. Why did I not go to the Health and Human services adolescent page? They have so many resources. And here we are thinking that we're out here on our own fighting human trafficking and trying to build kids who are able to have the kind of developmental assets that make them more resilient. And how do we empower kids to say no to some of the lures that we've talked about on this show that lead to the commercial sexual exploitation of our children and even labor trafficking like we mentioned in the latest episode on homeless youth? And eight percent are lured into labor trafficking. So,

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Jessica Springer joins Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak to talk about dual-jurisdiction children (part of the criminal justice system and the dependency system like foster homes) and how judges aren’t able to make good decisions if they don’t know the child’s full background. They also talk about current and upcoming human trafficking bills in California. Key Points

The majority of children involved in human trafficking come from a dual-jurisdiction population. Family violence is often the root of kids becoming dual-jurisdiction. The majority of children who get involved in human trafficking have a history of sexual abuse. When judges look at cases and don’t know the whole background, they can’t make well-informed decisions. There is a debate on whether it is better to have more legislation or to have less, but more effective legislation. Internet safety training is important, even at a young age. 80% of sexual trafficking recruiting happens online.

Resources

Vehicles Impoundment and Pilot Program Human Trafficking Prevention Education and Training Act Human Trafficking Recognition and Reporting and Training for Hotels and Motels 069 - Cyber Crimes and Brittany’s Story

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Contact us with questions, comments, or suggestions at feedback@endinghumantrafficking.org. Transcript Dave: [00:00:00] You're listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. This is episode number 157, Using Your Expertise as a Volunteer - An Interview with Attorney Jessica Springer.

Production Credits: [00:00:11] Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.

Dave: [00:00:31] Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. My name is Dave Stachowiak.

Sandie: [00:00:37] And my name is Sandie Morgan.

Dave: [00:00:39] And this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. Sandie, I'm glad to be back with you. Many times, when we get together for these conversations, you have someone in mind as a guest who is just fabulous on expertise. And today is no different, and in our pre-conversation before this interview, I can just tell there is so much we're going to learn. So, I'm really excited to be able to introduce Jessica Springer to our audience. She is a graduate of California State University Fullerton Cum Laude with a Bachelor of Arts degrees in both psychology and criminal justice. She obtained her Juris Doctor degree from the University of San Diego School of Law, and during law school, she worked at the San Diego district attorney's office and later started her own family practice here in Orange County. She is a member of the worker's compensation section of the State Bar in the Orange County Bar Association. She is bilingual in English and Farsi and is very active in her community serving as a member of the Orange County Bar’s Community Outreach Committee. She's a busy lawyer with a profound interest in children's rights, is a member of the Orange County CSEC Steering Committee and is the chair of the Orange County Association's Human Trafficking Task Force. Jessica, we're so glad to welcome you to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast.

Jessica: [00:02:05] Thank you, I'm happy to be here.

Sandie: [00:02:07] I'm excited to interview you today Jessica because when I first met you it was because you were volunteering at a summit that we were helping judge Maria Hernandez do. And since then we've become good friends. I love to have younger professionals in my life that mentor me as I have the opportunity to speak into your life. So, it's just a real honor to have a colleague and a friend on the podcast.

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Dr. Sandie Morgan and Dave Stachowiak talk about how broadcasters and journalists can tell the story of human trafficking with new perspectives. They talk about shifting the focus to tell the story of demand instead of just focusing on the rescues, and also discuss why it’s important to look at human trafficking with a public health perspective. Key Points

We need to challenge journalists to move from awareness to action. Media platforms need to be careful not to dehumanize victims, protect the safety and privacy of a victim's identity, and be cautious not to re-exploit victims through the retelling of their story. Language matters, we want to use terminology that shows the experience of the victim and allows the community to understand the root causes of these issues, such as using “commercial sexual exploitation” instead of "prostitution". Media should change the perspective about trafficking to include the demand, healthy community engagement, and public health Think about trafficking from a public health perspective, which changes the focus from results to prevention. How can you, in the community, use your expertise and resources to help prevent trafficking?

Resources

World Health Organization Safe Horizon FAAST 148: We are back to the Language: Labels Matter 17: California Transparency in Supply Chains Act Transitions: Making Sense Of Life's Changes by William Bridges Human Trafficking Certificate Program

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Transitions (40th Anniversary Edition): Making Sense of Life's Changes

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak talk to Kenny Henry about the human trafficking programs he is involved in and all that he’s learned, including the challenging of finding housing for survivors and the impact substance abuse has on victims. Key Points

Think about if there are already organizations in your community that would allow you to get involved in the fight against human trafficking. Housing is a huge need for human trafficking victims. There are many different types of survivors, between labor trafficking and sexual trafficking and all their subcategories. It doesn’t matter how informed we are if we don’t have a safe place for victims to go. Human trafficking is not a new phenomenon, but we now have a much greater awareness of it. Learn from survivors. Many survivors are abusing drugs or alcohol, some being forced to and some using it to numb themselves from the pain.

Resources

Volunteers of America Kenny Henry National Human Trafficking Training and Technical Assistance Center (NHTTAC)

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss substance abuse. They talk about the physiological causes of drug abuse, and what situations are most likely to lead to addictions. They wrap up by discussing how the solution is not in tougher laws against drugs but by local people creating drug-safe communities. Key Points

Children who have a history of being abused are significantly more vulnerable to human trafficking. The number one risk factor that leads to using drugs is having a family member with a substance abuse problem. The US consumes more than 80% of the world’s opioid supply and 21 million people across the US are abusing a substance. Understanding the brain helps us understand addiction as a physiological issue and not a moral one. For many children, their first introduction to a drug is from a prescription drug in a parent’s medicine cabinet. If you start experimenting with drugs as a teenager it astronomically increases your chances of addiction. Harsher drug laws don’t seem to help prevent drug abuse. We need to have neighborhood initiatives for a drug-free environment. Making a community a drug-safe environment is going to take everyday people who care enough to do something right in their own backyard.

Resources

https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/prevention/treatment.html Video: What is Addiction? 109: Prevention – Saving up for a Rainy Day Sign up for the Ensure Justice Conference which takes place March 2-3

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss the connection between homelessness and both sex trafficking and labor trafficking. They talk about the problems that arise when youths age out of the welfare system and how non-profits need to expand their view of success to include prevention, not just rescues. Key Points

Youths in early stages of mental development don’t have well-developed ways to manage risk. The vast majority of youths aging out of our welfare system do not have a plan. 81% of labor trafficking cases involve forced drug dealing. Humans are naturally drawn to sensational stories, and successfully preventing human trafficking does not attract as much attention as rescuing a victim from human trafficking. We need to expand what our vision of success is to include prevention.

Resources

https://covenanthousestudy.org/landing/trafficking/docs/Loyola-Research-Results.pdf https://covenanthousestudy.org/landing/trafficking/docs/Penn-Research-Results.pdf EHT 15: Homelessness and Human Trafficking – How They Connect EHT 141: A View From the Bench – Part 2 with Judge Hatchimonji EHT 22: Succeed Because of What You’ve Been Through with Rhonda Scioritino 105: What You Need to Know About Statistics 2018 Ensure Justice Conference Coaching for Leaders episode 215: How to Collaborate Across Organizations with Kirsten Foot

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(714) 556-3610 ext. 2242 gcwj@vanguard.edu

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Deidre Pujols joins Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak to talk about her upcoming event, Strike Out Slavery, and how she’s partnering with the Angels and MLB to educate baseball fans about human trafficking. Key Points

Strike Out Slavery is working with the Angels to create events that promote awareness for human trafficking organizations in a family-friendly way. Human trafficking awareness should be taught in schools alongside other ideas like “don’t drink and drive” and “stranger danger.” The greatest tool to stop human trafficking is prevention. Parents should be teaching their children about human dignity. Don’t feel like you have to help every single person from day one — start with the first person, and then keep moving forward. Stay “single-person-minded.” By helping human trafficking victims reintegrate into society, you’re also investing in the community.

Resources

Strike Out Slavery Open Gate International Episode about Open Gate International’s culinary arts program

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Anaheim Police Sergeant Juan Reveles joins Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak to talk about the status of human trafficking in Orange County. The discuss the fact that traffickers are being drawn to your area because there is demand. Part of solving the problem is finding ways to reduce demand, through things like awareness programs and publicity of offenders. Key Points

Law enforcement is only one part of the Orange County Human Trafficking Task Force. Law Enforcement needs to continue their paradigm shift of viewing events through a human human trafficking lens. Once we’ve helped victims, how do we keep them in the area so we can continue to help them? Trafficking victims are are viewed as expendable commodities by their traffickers. The vast majority of trafficking takes place through the internet. The focus needs to shift from only prosecuting traffickers to also prosecuting the purchasers because they are what ultimately drives demand. The threat of exposure and publicity is what is necessary to get the message across.

Resources

Episode with John Cotton Richmond and Victor Boutros Episode with Joyce Capelle Contact Juan Reveles at jereveles [at] anaheim.net

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak celebrate 150 episodes by looking back on their favorite episodes and some of the important lessons they’ve learned along the way. Resources List of top ten EHT episodes Anti-Human Trafficking Online Certificate

Sandie’s favorite episode:

1: What is Human Trafficking?

Dave’s favorite episodes:

39: Fighting Domestic Violence in Iraq 43: Truckers Against Trafficking – An Interview With Kendis Paris 45: War, Conflict, and Human Trafficking

Dr. Kirsten Foot:

111: Collaborating Against Human Trafficking with Dr. Kirsten Foot Collaborating against Human Trafficking by Dr. Kirsten Foot

Themes:

Prevention: http://endinghumantrafficking.org/?s=prevention Law Enforcement: http://endinghumantrafficking.org/?s=LAW+ENFORCEMENT Collaboration: http://endinghumantrafficking.org/?s=COLLABORATION CSEC: http://endinghumantrafficking.org/?s=csec Interviews: http://endinghumantrafficking.org/page/3/?s=INTERVIEW

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Collaborating against Human Trafficking: Cross-Sector Challenges and Practices

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss Sandie’s experience in Greece running the 3-day conference “Working Together Against Trafficking in Human Beings.” She explains how hard it can be to collaborate in the fight against trafficking, but also that working together is the only way to win the fight. Key Points

Many refugees were working professionals in their home countries Refugees desperate for work become highly vulnerable to trafficking. When people get really desperate, standard prevention strategies often don’t work. No one NGO can solve the problem, but each NGO has expertise that can help when working together. Collaborating can be a messy process, but it’s worth it. Collaboration is often complicated because we haven’t learned each other’s terminology. It’s going to take an army to end the trafficking crisis, and we need to build that army by partnering with others.

Resources

Bridges UN Terminology Glossary

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss the media’s response to the criminal trials against the pimp and murderer of Aubreyanna Sade Park. During the case against her pimp, the media referred to her as a sex-trafficking victim, but during the case against her murderer, the media referred to her as a prostitute. The different words send a mixed message about her innocence, and that’s why the words we use matter. Key Points

Calling someone a prostitute vs calling that person a sex-trafficking victim changes society’s response. Language helps us define who is the victim and who is the perpetrator. Historically, a prostitute has been considered a perpetrator. That’s ingrained in society’s mindset. Threats against a victim’s family are a common way to control a person. By changing our language, we can change the public’s perception.

Resources

http://www.ocregister.com/2014/02/07/yorba-linda-slaying-final-days-of-stabbing-victim-puzzle-family/ http://www.ocweekly.com/news/larry-shin-faces-trial-for-murder-but-hearing-reveals-more-about-victim-aubreyanna-parks-6470600 http://www.ocregister.com/2014/07/26/pimp-of-slain-teen-sentenced-to-5-years/ http://www.orangecountyda.org/civica/press/display.asp?layout=2&Entry=5200 http://www.ocregister.com/2014/11/19/revenge-prostitution-a-cut-hand-details-emerge-in-stabbing-of-17-year-old-in-yorba-linda/ http://mynewsla.com/crime/2017/06/02/teen-hookers-bloody-killer-guilty-brutal-terrible-death-in-yorba-linda/

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Judy Lamborn joins Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak to discuss why vocational training is so important for survivors, how Open Gate International runs their culinary arts program, and how you can get involved with their organization. Key Points

Vocational training is critical for survivors Once training is done, there still needs to be mentoring. In addition to studying culinary skills, all students in the program learn how to work together as a team, discover why it’s important to cover for the weaknesses of other team members, and learn to always take always care of their own responsibilities.

Resources

Open Gate International website Culinary Arts Program July 17 Heroes and Living Legends Gala

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Stacey Jewell joins Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak to share about how to help survivors find their voice and decide how much they want to share. They also discuss the responsibilities of both non-profits and survivor-speakers. Key Points

Connect with survivors by finding out who they are as a human being outside of their victimization. Survivors often believe things that are untrue because they’ve had to develop their own scripts to survive. It’s important to fully respect survivors who just want to move on and not be a survivor-speaker. When fundraising, non-profits need to be sure they don’t lose sight of their main purpose, which is to help victims, not raise money. Survivors should be financially compensated for their time speaking so they can cover their costs and know that they are valued. Ask a survivor about their actual needs, don’t try to guess. A Speaker’s Agreement is the responsibility of any non-profit seeking a survivor-speaker.

Resources

www.7layerscaptive.com www.whoisstolen.com

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss the Syrian refugee crisis and the impact it is having on the world, particularly in Athens, Greece. They also discuss the best ways to interact with refugees that reinforce their human dignity. Key Points

10,000 children have gone missing from Syrian refugee camps. Refugee camps are so miserable that people are willing to take huge risks for potential work abroad, and many of these workers become trafficking victims. Syrian Refugee camps will be open for decades. Communicating human dignity to people in refugee camps is key and just holding people’s hands can achieve that. A powerful way to impact human trafficking is to come back from a trip with a first-hand story that communicates the problem as a personal issue, not a public health crisis. The closer somebody is to the person telling the story, the more impact it will have. Sometimes what people need most is just for someone to listen to them. Instead of reinventing the wheel, look for places where work is already being done and partner with existing organizations. Relationship is always more important than resources.

Resources

Vanguard.edu/gcwj Sending the Vulnerable to Traffickers: Refugees and Migration Policies Human traffickers 'using migration crisis' to force more people into slavery

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Annalisa Enrile joins Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak to discuss her new book, Ending Human Trafficking and Modern-Day Slavery: Freedom's Journey. Annalisa talks about how we often approach solutions without looking at the big picture and how corporations are shifting from mere Corporate Social Responsibility to a Corporate Social Impact mindset. She also reminds us that rescuing someone is only the first step; it’s crucial to examine the support they’re getting afterward. Resources:

Annalisa Enrile’s faculty page Ending Human Trafficking and Modern-Day Slavery: Freedom's Journey by Annalisa Enrile

Key Points:

We often approach solutions without looking at the big picture. Technology is emerging as a powerful anti-trafficking tool. Corporate Archetypes of Goodness: a movement from Corporate Social Responsibility to Corporate Social Impact. Corporations aren’t merely trying to act responsibly, they’re actively trying to impact the world. It’s easy to forget that survivor advocates are in fact survivors; they’re still on the healing journey. We need to be aware of the unintended consequences of rescuing someone. Rescuing someone is only the first step; it’s crucial to examine the support they’re getting afterward. It’s important to remember that survivors aren’t here just to tell their stories, they’re here to teach us.

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In this episode, Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss why Sandie went to Istanbul, Turkey and what she did there. The forum on Modern Slavery hosted by His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, discussed the role of the church in combating Human Trafficking and gathered distinguished scholars and leaders from around the world to discuss human exploitation. The goal was to bring context and understanding for how the church can rise up and do something about this injustice. Sandie's role was to network, build relationships, work together to find resources, and discuss action plans to make a difference. One exciting outcome from this forum was engaging with the human trafficking commissioner of Athens who volunteered their resources to help the Study Abroad team this summer as they travel to Greece to work with the Syrian Refugees. Sandie challenged the church to step up in their role which prompted collaboration efforts for more resources and partnership in these efforts. Resources: Ecumenical Patriarchate

Photos of the Forum

Joint Declaration

Church of England

Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate

Priceless: A Luncheon to End Human Trafficking

Global Center for Women and Justice

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In this episode, Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak interview Laura Lederer, President and Founder of Global Centurion. Under her leadership, Global Centurion has developed significant demand- focused research and programs. Ms. Lederer shares about the history of addressing human trafficking and the rewards of the early work that was done to emerge the global human rights movement we now have today. Her new book about slavery in the 21st century explains the complexities of the anti-human trafficking movement over the years, and although they have had 10 good years since the Trafficking Victims Protect Act was enacted, Ms. Lederer still believes they are at the beginning of the movement. At this time, Ms. Lederer suggests assessing what has been done through evaluation and research to take a hard look at what works and what may not be working well, using what has been learned to move forward thoughtfully. Resources: Laura J. Lederer, President & Founder

Global Centurion

U.S. Laws on Trafficking in Persons

Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate

Priceless: A Luncheon to End Human Trafficking

Global Center for Women and Justice

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak welcome back Judge Hatchimonji to discuss the role of the Juvenile Court Judge in Child Welfare by breaking misconceptions about what juvenile judges do and how much they care about their job. When it comes to Juvenile Justice, the court wants to create a path that leads to a vibrant future for the children. The role of the Judge in child welfare becomes an active participant, to address and underline the root of the problem. They talk about the two branches, the dependency court which addresses children who have been neglected by caretakers and the delinquency court when children break criminal laws themselves. Sandie asks Judge Hatchimonji what he wants for kids when they walk onto his court. It is the juvenile court's responsibility to rehabilitate the child, change their life trajectory to a bright and hopeful future. Resources: Judge Douglas Hatchimonji

Role of the Juvenile Court Judge in Child Welfare

Ensure Justice Conference: Build a Strong Child

Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate

Global Center for Women and Justice

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Did California legalize child prostitution? Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak host Judge Douglas Hatchimonji to talk about the new California legislation regarding child prostitution. They discuss SB13-22 and why there is so much recent debate around it. Judge Hatchimonji was appointed to the Bench in 2003 and was Presiding Juvenile Justice from 2011-2014, and now back at Juvenile Justice. Resources: Judge Douglas Hatchimonji

Senate Bill 1322

Press Release - Governor Brown signs SB 1322 declaring "There is no such thing as a child prostitute"

Ensure Justice Conference: Build a Strong Child

Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate

Global Center for Women and Justice

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak continue their conversation with retired Deputy Chief Derek Marsh about ethical dilemmas, mainly when it comes to media challenges. Just about any consistent work in anti-trafficking will eventually engage the press. Ethical decisions need to guide us when preparing a report or releasing any information to the press and the media. It is important to understand the terminology of the story so that we are able to articulate and clear up any misconceptions. Sandra Morgan mentions the Stephen Model and Derek Marsh explains each acronym, Socio-cultural framework, Technology, Economy, Politics, Historical, Ecological, and Next. Resources: STEPHEN Model Ensure Justice Conference: Build a Strong Child

Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate

Global Center for Women and Justice

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Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak discuss victim advocates and their roles. Victim advocates make a personal connection with victim survivors by developing trust and building relationships. They undergo specialized training in order to be well informed about how to interact with survivors of trauma. Victim advocates focus on what the survivors need to begin to thrive. Their primary goal is to be an advocate for the survivor and make sure they feel safe. One of the main things that survivors need to hear is that they are a victim of a crime, NOT a criminal! Dr. Sandra Morgan discusses the need for a large collaboration network in this field. One of the main topics of discussion here is a tool that victim advocates can use to prepare – a guide for victim advocates which focuses on their specific role in the restoration process. Resources: National Sexual Violence Resource Center: Assisting Trafficking Victims

HHS Office For Victims of Crime: Victim Service Providers

A Resource Guide for Social Service Providers Ensure Justice Conference: Build a Strong Child

Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate

Global Center for Women and Justice

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In this episode, Dr. Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak introduce two previous federal prosecutors John Cotton Richmond and Victor Boutros to discuss the Human Trafficking Institute. They ask three questions that fall into anti-human trafficking strategies. How do we make people less vulnerable to traffickers? How do we care for survivors? How do we actually stop the traffickers? The answer is to start at the root of the problem. We need to understand the issues and the laws that are already in place. Then we need to understand how we can enforce the laws already in place and where we need to expand policies. Boutros shares that they will train specialized units to create a model of prosecutors and agents that are focused on human trafficking cases called the ACT Team. This episode challenges listeners to begin to think in innovative ways about how they can stop the crime at its source. It's time we learn how to identify the traffickers, not just the victims, in order to be able to stop future exploitation. Victor Boutros

Victor serves as the Chief Executive Officer of the Human Trafficking Institute and President of the Board of Directors. He is a co-founder of the Institute, which was launched in 2015. Prior to his role at the Institute, he served as a federal prosecutor in the U.S. Department of Justice’s Human Trafficking Prosecution Unit and trained law enforcement from different parts of the world on how to investigate and prosecute human trafficking. He is co-author with Gary Haugen of The Locust Effect: Why the End of Poverty Requires the End of Violence (Oxford Press). In 2016, Victor and Gary received the Grawemeyer Prize for Ideas Impacting World Order, awarded annually to the authors of one world-changing book based on originality, feasibility, and potential impact. Victor is a graduate of Baylor University, Harvard University, Oxford University, and the University of Chicago. John Cotton Richmond

John Cotton Richmond serves as the United States Ambassador-at-Large to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons and leads the Department’s Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons. In October 2018, the Senate unanimously confirmed him and President Trump appointed him to lead the United States’ global engagement to combat human trafficking and support the coordination of anti-trafficking efforts across the U.S. government. Ambassador Richmond comes to the highest position in the federal government dedicated to combating human trafficking, after a distinguished career in the global battle for freedom. He co-founded the Human Trafficking Institute that exists to decimate modern slavery at its source by empowering police and prosecutors to use victim-centered and trauma-informed methods to hold traffickers accountable and ensure survivors are treated with respect and care. Resources

John Richmond & Victor Boutros The Human Trafficking Institute The Human Trafficking Institute- the Founder Episode 26 - Lessons from the Prosecutor’s Desk

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The Locust Effect: Why the End of Poverty Requires the End of Violence

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January is National Human Trafficking and Slavery Prevention Month. The We CAN Coalition of Orange County is all about working to end child abuse and neglect. On this show, Sandie and Dave have discussed community partnership as a key to human trafficking prevention work. We CAN Coalition is a local response model that can be replicated across the nation as a reputable way to do prevention. There are four necessary components for an effective collective: a clear common purpose, community engagement and co-production, relationships and trust, and results and accountability. For the purpose of ending human trafficking, it is imperative that people within same-minded organizations follow these components. Resources: We CAN Coalition Overview

Online Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate

Ensure Justice Conference: Build a Strong Child

Global Center for Women and Justice

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In this third part of the series on ethics and decision making, Dave, Sandie and Derek continue to explore the importance of ethics in collaborative work. Anti-human Trafficking Collaborations often happen between law enforcement, victim service providers, health care providers and centers, social service agencies, and faith-based/volunteer organizations. With all these collaborations happening to end human trafficking, ethical codes are difficult to maintain across all of these partnerships because each organization has different values and beliefs. The key is for partnerships to align their values and decide how to treat ethical dilemmas. It is imperative to share the same language among professionals to avoid conflict and confusion in collaborations. Resources: Derek Marsh- BJA Fellow

James Austin Book: The Collaboration Challenge

Online Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate

Josephson Institute of Ethics: 7 Step Path to Ethical Decision Making

Ensure Justice Conference: Build a Strong Child

Global Center for Women and Justice

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Co-host Dave Stachowiak and Dr. Sandra Morgan have a conversation with Retired Deputy Chief Derek Marsh who currently serves as the Bureau of Justice Assistance visiting fellow of human trafficking. In this episode, they discuss ethical decision making in right vs. right situations, such as justice vs. mercy or fairness vs. empathy situations that we have to address when combating human trafficking. Derek provides several ethical decision making (EDM) models that we can practice to master effective ethical decision making in our personal and professional fields. Resources: Derek Marsh- BJA Fellow

Online Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate

Author James Svara Resources : Ethical Triangle

Gary Tyra's Pursuing Moral Faithfulness: Ethics and Christian Discipleship

Josephson Institute of Ethics: 7 Step Path to Ethical Decision Making

Ensure Justice Conference

Global Center for Women and Justice

Pursuing Moral Faithfulness: Ethics and Christian Discipleship

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Co-host Dave Stachowiak and Dr. Sandra Morgan have a conversation with Retired Deputy Chief Derek Marsh who currently serves as the Bureau of Justice Assistance visiting fellow of human trafficking. In this episode, they discuss the ethical dilemmas that are faced when addressing human trafficking. When addressing human trafficking through the law enforcement, health care, or victim service provider perspectives, there are specific ethical dilemmas that become complicated when taking a victim-centered approach. There are a lot of different value systems that existence which shape our moral perspectives. One of the challenges Dr. Morgan faced early on in her career was understanding how to meet legal requirements in the tension of moral obligations. Derek Marsh helps pinpoint how to adopt, communicate and apply ethics in our field of work. Resources: Derek Marsh- BJA Fellow

A Question of Values- Hunter Lewis (1990)

Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate Program

Ensure Justice Conference

Global Center for Women and Justice

A QUESTION OF VALUES Six Ways We Make the Personal Choices That Shape Our Lives

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The Ensure Justice Conference is GCWJ's annual educational collaboration. March 2017 marks the 10 year anniversary of Ensure Justice and the theme will be to “Build a Strong Child.” The question is how do we reduce the risk for kids and take preventative action against the rapidly growing industry of pornography and sex trafficking. The real secret to prevention is resiliency. To make "ensuring justice" the principle and the practice a highly valued aspect of fighting trafficking we have to make the story about resilience important. Collaboration happens at Ensure Justice when people get together to understand the value of advocating against human trafficking. Proverbs 31:8, “Be a voice for those that have no voice; ensure justice for those being crushed.” Ensure Justice conference will be focusing on building strong children in our community, around schools, and globally. Resources: Ensure Justice Conference

OCHTTF 2016 Victim Report

Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate Program

Global Center for Women and Justice

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In this episode, Director Sandra Morgan and GCWJ Board member Dave Stachowiak discuss the link between pornography and sex trafficking. Sandie Morgan did a webinar with the Religious Alliance Against Pornography to investigate this link which is an issue that most people can agree on. Pornography drives the demand for trafficking and is closely linked to the prosperity of the sex trafficking. The genre of pornography has become increasingly more violent as the appetite of viewers has become more demanding for more variety, and younger victims. The general public needs to understand the ramifications of this type of abuse on young people, for those involved in the production and for those consuming the pornography products as a sex education resource. Pornography is NOT a victimless crime- how can we protect our children? Resources: Porn: The New Sex-Education

RAAP Webinar: Religious Association against Pornography

Podcast 37: Interview with Harmony Dust

Treasures Website

Netsmartz Resources: National Center for Missing and Exploited Children

It's Okay to Tell Video

Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate Program

Global Center for Women and Justice

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In this episode, Director Sandra Morgan and GCWJ Board member Dave Stachowiak introduce Dr. Becca Johnson who is the International program director at Rescue Freedom International. Dr. Johnson discusses the strategy of trauma sensitivity and how it is different from trauma informed. She shares that by teaching trauma sensitive care instead of just trauma informed care, she wants people to engage their hearts and empathy, not just their head. It is not enough that they just have knowledge about what trauma is and how it affects people, but that they would truly understand as much as they can from a heart level as well.

We have to ask what’s going on with the survivor's emotions, in the thinking processes. When this is understood, it makes outreach more effective. It breaks down barriers because those helping can understand by sharing some common thoughts and feelings. To be trauma sensitive is also being culturally sensitive which leads to being more empathetic.

Resources:

Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate Program

Global Center for Women and Justice

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In this episode, Director Sandra Morgan and GCWJ Board member Dave Stachowiak introduce Alicia Zayas who is a Vanguard Alum to discuss how to prepare a community to rescue individuals from human trafficking. Alicia shares that the best way to start out in the fight against human trafficking is to become educated about these issues and to get your community involved educationally. She touches on some of the implementation pieces that are key such as the education piece and outreach by reaching out to high schools, middle schools, youth through youth prevention summits, using training presentations, and going out and training local police departments. It’s all about studying the issues, being a voice, and making a difference. Alicia played a vital role in the successful bust of a human trafficking ring in Tulare County, California in August 2016. Read about it here, and here.

Alicia Woodard Zayas bio:

Alicia completed her BA in Sociology at Vanguard University with a Women’s Studies Minor, where she began her passion for ending human trafficking and served in the Global Center. She volunteered with the OCHTTF to assist survivors and train volunteers for local outreach and Live2free students to go into OC schools. She went on to complete her Masters in Social Work at Cal State University Bakersfield. For the last 4 years, she has been a part of the Tulare County Child Welfare Services as a social worker, where she helped create policies and procedures that tackle the issue of commercial exploitation of children. Her training programs equipped law enforcement and Child Welfare partners to serve the 52 victims of a recent human trafficking bust in Tulare County. She continues to sit on the Tulare County Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children (CSEC) Steering Committee providing training in Tulare County. Alicia is also in the process of becoming a Licensed Clinical Social Worker. Alicia was the recipient of the Director's Young Leader Award at Priceless 2016. This award recognizes service by an outstanding young leader who has demonstrated extraordinary commitment to promoting justice for women and children through their work and leadership. Alicia was also the recipient of Vanguard's 2017 Young Alumni of the Year award in March.

http://www.visaliatimesdelta.com/story/news/local/2016/08/22/operation-baby-face-phase-ii/89130698/

Resources:

Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate Program

Global Center for Women and Justice

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In this episode, Director Sandra Morgan and GCWJ Board member Dave Stachowiak interview Father Sergio Augusto Navarro, while Sandie was with him in Argentina. Gilbert Contreras was the translator. Father Navarro’s research is mainly focused on human trafficking and how people of faith respond to these issues. They discuss the differences between trafficking and smuggling by separating the terminologies. Father Navarro also discusses how labor is more common in Argentina but it has become a part of normalized culture. Father Navarro shares ways to help prevent human trafficking by bringing awareness that we should not be a slave to anyone, and our faith helps us to believe that and helps other believe that as well. He desires to educate people to know that all people have rights and should demand that the justice system functions accordingly. If we believe that we are children of God, made in the image of God, then no one has the right to put power over anyone else or have the right to make someone a slave. Resources: Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate Program

Global Center for Women and Justice

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In this episode, Director Sandra Morgan and GCWJ Board member Dave Stachowiak address some general questions about human trafficking and specific events that the Global Center for Women and Justice host throughout the year. We always like to answer the questions of our listeners in a way that will benefit others who may have the same questions. We hope you enjoy this variety of conversation, learning from the expertise of Dr. Morgan. Resources: Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate Program

Global Center for Women and Justice

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In this episode, Director Sandra Morgan and GCWJ Board member Dave Stachoviak continue in the “Meet the Professor” series. In this interview Dr. Morgan recounts an experience she had as a Pediatric Nurse when she met her first sex trafficking victim who was a 14 year old boy. Through her encounter with the victim, she purposed in her heart to create an end to human trafficking.

She shares the importance of a multidisciplinary approach, and all professionals incorporating trauma- informed practice. The Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate Program will be a tool that will assist in this effort to inform people from various backgrounds and levels of expertise- to help be a part of the solution to the cycle of violence and poverty which fuels the human trafficking industry. Resources: Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate Program

Global Center for Women and Justice

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In this episode, Director Sandra Morgan and GCWJ Board member Dave Stachowiak introduce Katie Linn, who has joined Vanguard University as an Adjunct Professor after relocating to Southern California with her husband. She is the co-founder and consulting director of Exploit No More, a faith-based anti-trafficking organization in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Exploit No More aims to help trafficked women transition out of being victims and mobilizing them to become survivors that flourish in addition to training community leaders on trafficking prevention.

In the new Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate Program, Katie will be leading students in this online experience. It will be an introductory course that will be looking at trafficking person’s reports, different countries’ approach to trafficking prevention, as well as reading 3 different text- one of which will include the Hands That Heal curriculum. This program is one that allows individuals to learn at their own pace and interact with students all over the world. Resources: Anti-Human Trafficking Certificate Program

Hands That Heal Curriculum

Exploit No More

Global Center for Women and Justice

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During this episode, Sandra Morgan and Dave Stachowiak talk about how education contributes to life success, and how it can be used as a prevention tool in schools where children are dealing with different types of trauma. The idea that trauma only happens occasionally is overturned by current research brief: Unlocking the Door to Learning. Children who deal with trauma are living in a constant state of emergency with the way their body systems are functioning. How does this child function in a school setting? Their experiences in school will shape their future adult success and that is why trauma informed classrooms are so important. This research brief shows us recommended approaches for how to change the way we work with children in the classroom setting. Resources: Unlocking the Door to Learning- Education Law Center 2015 Brief

Helping Traumatized Children Learn: Supportive School Environments for Children Traumatized by Family Violence

Ending Human Trafficking Podcast: Recent Episodes

Dr. Sandra Morgan