A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar: Recent Episodes
Randy Knie, Kyle Whitaker
The podcast where we mix a sometimes weird but always delicious cocktail of theology, philosophy, and spirituality.
We're a pastor and a philosopher who have discovered that sometimes pastors need philosophy, and sometimes philosophers need pastors. We tackle topics and interview guests that straddle the divide between our interests.
Who we are:
Randy Knie (Co-Host) - Randy is the founding and Lead Pastor of Brew City Church in Milwaukee, WI. Randy loves his family, the Church, cooking, and the sound of his own voice. He drinks boring pilsners.
Kyle Whitaker (Co-Host) - Kyle is a philosophy PhD and an expert in disagreement and philosophy of religion. Kyle loves his wife, sarcasm, kindness, and making fun of pop psychology. He drinks childish slushy beers.
Elliot Lund (Producer) - Elliot is a recovering fundamentalist. His favorite people are his wife and three boys, and his favorite things are computers and hamburgers. Elliot loves mixing with a variety of ingredients, including rye, compression, EQ, and bitters.
Text us your questions!
Dawne Moon and Theresa Tobin are back to discuss their book Choosing Love, which represents the culmination of their research over the last several years into the community of conservative LGBTQ+ Christians. This book expands on many of the topics we covered in our first conversation while adding insightful material on the varied ways this community understands their conservative Christian identity, how it intersects with other aspects of their identities, how they understand and practice love, the relationships between love, justice, politics, theology, and activism, and much more.
Some topics we cover in this conversation include:
- The concept of "sacramental shame" which names how LGBTQ+ Christians must perform shame about their identity to be accepted in religious communities
- How straight, cis Christians often fail to understand the weight of asking queer people to be celibate or suppress their sexuality
- The tensions within LGBTQ+ Christian advocacy organizations around intersectionality and strategic approaches
- What it means to be "conservative" in these communities
- Balancing activist ideals with the reality of theological convictions
- The socially constructed nature of Christian ideals about gender and sexuality
- The importance of humility in faith conversations and how it is modeled in this community
- The connection between love and justice in movements for social change and inclusion
Theresa and Dawne have done important and original work that has much to teach both conservative Christians and liberal secularists about this overlooked but important community.
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What happens when political labels lose their meaning? Dr. Laurie Johnson, political philosopher and president of the Maurin Academy, joins us to unpack the tangled roots of America's culture wars and explore pathways toward overcoming our divisions. We discuss her book The Gap in God's Country: A Longer View on Our Culture Wars.
The conversation begins with a clarification of political terminology. Laurie explains how American understandings of "liberal" and "conservative" have drifted far from historical and global meanings, with both Democrats and Republicans representing different flavors of liberalism while "true" conservatism remains rare in American politics. This terminological confusion reflects a deeper problem: an increasingly narrow political imagination that limits our ability to envision alternatives.
In Laurie's view, at the heart of our cultural divisions lies capitalism's continuous transformation of communities and human connections. She describes how economic changes have hollowed out rural areas, separated families, and created profound insecurity. When people feel economically adrift, they become susceptible to scapegoating others rather than recognizing systemic problems. This resentment fuels the political extremism we see today.
We also explore potential remedies. Laurie suggests churches could play a crucial role in rebuilding community if they moved beyond superficial fellowship toward genuine cooperation. By creating structures that provide mutual benefit, such as shared childcare, elder support, or time banks, people might rediscover how community offers security that money can't buy.
Though unflinching in her assessment of our challenges, Laurie maintains a tempered hope. Perhaps only through experiencing genuine hardship will we rediscover the value of community and cooperation. Her work offers an invitation to attempt this rediscovery before crisis forces our hand.
*Note: This episode was recorded before the appalling assassination of Charlie Kirk.
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Ready to transform your relationship with the Bible? Zach Lambert, pastor of Restore Church in Austin and author of Better Ways to Read the Bible, offers a healing pathway for those wounded by scripture in this candid conversation.
Growing up in a Southern Baptist megachurch during the "fundamentalist takeover," Lambert experienced firsthand how the Bible can be weaponized. Disagreeing with the pastor's interpretation is often treated as disagreeing with God. This authoritarian approach created spiritual trauma that eventually led Zach to seek healthier ways of engaging with scripture.
Zach challenges the notion that there's one "plain reading" of the Bible, noting that everyone interprets scripture through various lenses. Some lenses—like literalism, apocalypse, moralism, and hierarchy—often produce harm, while others—focused on Jesus, context, flourishing, and fruitfulness—lead to healing. The key differentiator is the fruit they produce. "We should be asking with any given biblical interpretation: is it producing more love, joy, peace, patience, kindness in me and in the world around me?"
The conversation tackles difficult topics like biblical violence, biblical inerrancy (see our episode on this topic here), the subjugation of women, and LGBTQ+ inclusion, offering fresh perspectives without abandoning the text. Zach suggests we view scripture as John the Baptist pointing to Jesus rather than an end in itself: "Jesus didn't say 'here is the truth, believe it.' He said 'I am the truth, follow me.'" This shift from a text-centered to a person-centered faith can transform our approach to scripture.
Whether you're deconstructing harmful theology, seeking to reintegrate the Bible into your spiritual life, or simply curious about healthier interpretive frameworks, this episode provides thoughtful guidance for transforming scripture from a weapon of harm into a tool of healing.
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What happens to prayer after you rethink religion and spirituality? Does it feel empty, confusing, or even impossible? If so, you're not alone.
In this episode, the three of us discuss our journeys from structured, wordy, and sometimes demonstrative prayer lives to something altogether different. Randy reflects on his charismatic past where intercessory prayer dominated his spiritual practice, Kyle raises philosophical questions about whether prayer "works" in a traditional sense and shares his current discomfort with it, and Elliot shares what about prayer still seems to fit—and what doesn't—through the experience of deconstruction.
We wrestle with the extent to which we should think of prayer as affecting the world, God, or ourselves. We visit the thoughts of some influential thinkers on prayer. And we question the transactional and manipulative views of our old traditions while trying to remain generous with our past selves.
What do we make of Jesus's promises about prayer's power alongside his own unanswered prayer in Gethsemane? What about contemplative alternatives to petitionary prayer, and are they really different from meditation? Can we name the grief that comes with losing certain prayer practices while also discovering new, more life-giving ones?
Wherever you are on prayer these days, we hope this conversation offers companionship for the journey and permission to find your own path forward. Prayer may not be what it once was, and that's okay.
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Text us your questions!
What happens when a successful religious leader transitions genders and loses everything? Reverend Dr. Paula Stone Williams takes us on her extraordinary journey from privilege to authenticity.
Paula once stood at the pinnacle of evangelical success – CEO of a large nonprofit, television host, magazine editor. But beneath this accomplished exterior lived a truth she'd known since childhood: she was transgender. When she finally answered what she describes as a "calling" toward authenticity (instigated by the TV show Lost, belive it or not!), the cost was staggering. Paula lost her jobs, her pension, and virtually all professional connections overnight, earning less than $6,000 annually for four years after transition.
This conversation reveals Paula's unique perspective as someone who has experienced life on both sides of the gender divide. Her observations about male privilege are particularly illuminating – "I'll not live long enough to lose my white male entitlement. I brought it with me," she notes, while describing the jarring experience of suddenly being dismissed, patronized, and underestimated in professional settings after transition.
Rather than abandoning faith after being rejected by her religious community, Paula describes developing a deeper, more nuanced spirituality. She frames this transformation as moving from a "left-brain heavy faith" focused on doctrine toward one embracing intuition and mystery, leading to a more authentic connection with Jesus's teachings.
Paula brings refreshing nuance to often polarized conversations about transgender issues, distinguishing between different manifestations of gender dysphoria while expressing concerns about some current treatment approaches. For church leaders navigating these complex waters, she offers practical advice from her extensive experience leading religious communities.
Through her book As a Woman, viral TED Talks, and speaking engagements worldwide, Paula now shares the wisdom gained from her journey, through both profound loss and unexpected discovery. We hope this conversation informs and challenges you as much as it did us.
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How did the role of "pastor's wife" replace ordination for women in church history? Is the news that there was women's ordination in church history hitting you unexpectedly right now? It's cool, we get it; take a moment and come back when you're ready.
Historian and actual pastor's wife Beth Allison Barr returns for a potentially revelatory conversation about her latest book, Becoming the Pastor's Wife: How Marriage Replaced Ordination as a Woman's Path to Ministry. Drawing from extensive research, including archival discoveries and reading 150 pastor's wife books/manuals (yes, that's a real genre), Beth uncovers how the glorification of this role coincided with efforts to restrict women's ordination.
This interview weaves eye-opening historical findings with deeply personal experiences. Beth shares stories of pastors' wives—herself included—being treated as church property, essentially an extension of her husband and his ministry rather than a full person. These aren't isolated incidents; they are systematic experiences faced by countless pastors' wives who are expected to provide unpaid ministerial labor while supporting their husband's careers.
Perhaps most striking is the historical evidence that women served in virtually every ministry role men did for the first thousand years of Christianity—including as deacons, bishops, and preachers. The rise of complementarian theology—spoiler warning if you're not a regular listener of this podcast—is a modern development that deliberately ignores this rich history.
While Beth doesn't shy away from the harm these practices have caused, she leaves us with hope borrowed from Doctor Who's beloved Van Gogh episode: while we can't undo past damage, we can "add to the good pile" by recognizing the truth, stopping harmful practices, and building a better future where women's gifts are fully welcomed in ministry. This is a conversation that will challenge your understanding of church history and inspire you to imagine new possibilities for what the church could be.
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Matthew Vines returns to discuss how the revised edition of his book addresses critiques from prominent theologians, the distinction between affirming theology and queer theology, and the possibility of affirming, orthodox Christianity.
Matthew unpacks the scholarly consensus that modern sexual orientation concepts simply didn't exist in biblical times—a fact many prominent theologians like NT Wright dismiss without substantial engagement. This historical disconnect creates profound implications for how we interpret biblical passages addressing same-sex relationships.
The discussion takes an interesting turn when Matthew articulates a strong critique of queer theology, distinguishing it from his own affirming theological stance. He argues that queer theory's categorical opposition to all normative structures actually harms LGBTQ+ acceptance by creating an antagonistic "us versus them" narrative rather than one of shared values and inclusion.
We also explore Christian sexual ethics more broadly, with Matthew making the compelling case that monogamy and covenant faithfulness remain valuable principles with profound theological significance. He explains how Christianity's sexual ethic was actually liberating in the ancient world, especially for women and enslaved people who had previously been treated as property without sexual agency.
The conversation concludes with Matthew sharing the mission of The Reformation Project—his organization dedicated to equipping Christians to advocate for LGBTQ+ inclusion while maintaining orthodox Christian beliefs. By modeling how affirmation and biblical commitment can coexist, they're challenging the false narrative that accepting LGBTQ+ people necessarily leads to theological liberalism.
Topics covered in this episode include:
• How ancient and modern understandings of sexuality are fundamentally different, with sexual orientation being a modern concept
• The two main schools of thought in sexuality studies that emerged in the 1970s: social constructionism (Foucault) and essentialism (Boswell)
• NT Wright and Preston Sprinkle's claims about ancient sexuality
• Matthew's response to criticisms of his interpretation of Matthew 7 regarding "good and bad fruit"
• The role of Christian sexual ethics in liberating vulnerable populations by restricting sexual activity to marriage
• How queer theology differs from affirming theology in its rejection of all norms as inherently oppressive
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Pope Francis, a man who inspired even many Protestants and non-Christians with his refreshingly prophetic voice, has died. The process to select his successor is ongoing as we release this. To help us understand what's happening, as well as its historical significance, we're talking with our friend and returning guest Shaun Blanchard, a Catholic theologian and theological historian. He helps us understand the significance of Francis's papacy and what might come next.
As the first Latin American pope, first Jesuit pope, and first non-European pope since the 8th century, Francis broke numerous precedents while embodying what Shaun calls "the first truly post-Vatican II pope." While his predecessors were formed before Vatican II, Francis's entire priestly ministry took place afterward, fundamentally shaping his perspective on church reform.
We explore how Francis's pastoral approach differed from Benedict XVI's more theological orientation and how his willingness to "make a mess" by reopening debates on issues like divorce, remarriage, and same-sex blessings represented a sea change in ecclesiastical culture. Francis challenged assumptions across the political and theological spectrum, championing environmental protection and migrant rights while maintaining core Catholic teachings.
The conversation turns to the ongoing conclave, where approximately 80% of voting cardinals were appointed by Francis himself. Shaun offers insights into potential candidates including Pietro Parolin, Pierbattista Pizzaballa, and several Asian cardinals, discussing how geopolitical realities might influence the selection process. We also discuss the film "Conclave" and its portrayal of Vatican politics, including how realistic or sensational it was (spoiler warning!).
Whether you're Catholic, Protestant, or simply curious about global religious leadership, this conversation illuminates a crucial moment of transition for the world's largest Christian denomination and invites reflection on what spiritual leadership means in our complex global environment.
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Matthew Vines is here to discuss the revised and expanded edition of his influential book God and the Gay Christian, marking eleven years since its initial release. The book sent shockwaves through evangelical Christianity and remains a powerful and compelling case for an affirming reading of the Bible for those who want to hold onto biblical authority (if you're counting, that's exactly one of the hosts of this podcast).
Matthew shares the backstory behind the book, including how he took a semester off from Harvard to come out to his parents and how he spent months studying the Bible and reading ex-gay literature with his dad. That process ultimately changed his dad's mind and started the trajectory to this book.
The heart of our conversation concerns Matthew's case for reading the Bible in an affirming way. He draws a fascinating parallel with how Christians approached biblical prohibitions against charging interest (usury) for 1,500 years—until John Calvin recognized that while Scripture categorically condemned the practice, its underlying moral logic was about protecting the vulnerable from exploitation. Similarly, Matthew argues, we must understand what same-sex behavior meant in ancient times before we can draw parallels to current practices and understandings.
Matthew is articulate and thoughtful and approaches the issue with a great respect for the Bible and for his interlocutors. (The new edition of the book includes new sections responding to some of his critics!)
This conversation ran so deep that we had to split it into two episodes! Stay tuned for Part 2.
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This is a conversation we've been avoiding: how are we doing now that Donald Trump is president again? As we had a break between interviews, we decided to try to unpack how we're feeling, what we're doing, what we've learned about ourselves, and what we're worried and hopeful about.
This is an unusually impromptu and unpolished conversation for us. We didn't plan much and the emotions and the thoughts are raw and relatively unprocessed. We hope that resonates, but if it doesn't, we get it. We'd love to hear from you about what we got wrong (or right). We just needed to take a moment to process out loud together and we hope that it helps some of you start to do the same if you're experiencing similar confusion and grief.
Some highlights:
- Randy shares the heartbreaking moment he realized he could no longer honestly tell his daughter she could become anything, revealing how political outcomes can alter our beliefs about what's possible for us.
- Kyle brings some philosophical perspective, arguing that meaningful progress requires examining the origins of our beliefs and taking ownership of our values.
- Elliot considers how to focus on local impact when national politics feels overwhelming.
- Randy raises a question that haunts many of us: why did over 77 million Americans vote for Trump?
We dig into the currents of fear, anger, and disillusionment driving our nation, touching on liberal blind spots, conservative anxieties, and our collective failure to listen across difference. We also consider whether this moment is a temporary setback in history's arc toward justice or something more permanent, and where it leaves our senses of patriotism.
CONTENT NOTE: This episode contains profanity. (How could it not?)
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This is a re-release of an episode from our second season when we spoke with philosopher C Thi Nguyen. We think it bears re-listening in our current moment.
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What happens when we seek simple answers in a complex world? Philosopher C Thi Nguyen takes us into the machinery of belief, understanding, and value formation, exploring how we navigate information landscapes designed to manipulate us.
Thi introduces the concept of "moral outrage porn"—representations that give us the satisfaction of moral righteousness without requiring meaningful action. We discuss conspiracy theories and his notion of "the seduction of clarity"—the powerful feeling we get from explanations that seem to make everything simple. This feeling is particularly dangerous because we're limited beings who need mental shortcuts to navigate the world.
We also tackle echo chambers and why perfectly rational people can end up in them. Thi distinguishes echo chambers (where we systematically distrust outside sources) from filter bubbles (where we simply aren't exposed to contrary views), explaining that people inside echo chambers often follow logical procedures based on who they've decided to trust. This challenges the dismissive assumption that those with radically different beliefs are simply stupid or lazy.
Weaving through discussions of game design, social media metrics, and institutional incentives, Thi reveals how our values are increasingly captured by simplified scoring systems that reshape our priorities according to what can be easily measured. The result? We outsource our complex human values to technologies and institutions that weren't designed to handle them.
Uncomfortable yet?
Content note: this episode contains profanity.
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What happens when the foundation of your identity crumbles beneath you? When the lens through which you understood the world no longer works? Psychologist Dr. Daryl Van Tongeren joins us to explore this profound transition that one-fifth of Americans have experienced—leaving religion behind.
Drawing from eight years of groundbreaking research across multiple countries, Van Tongeren walks us through what he calls "the great disillusionment," which he documents in his book Done: How to Flourish After Leaving Religion. We discover that most people who check "none" on religious surveys were previously religious believers—what he calls the "dones." Their past faith doesn't simply disappear but leaves "religious residue" that continues influencing their thoughts, behaviors, fears, and values long after they've walked away.
This conversation ventures beyond theory into practical wisdom for navigating life's deepest questions. Van Tongeren shares his personal journey through faith crisis after his brother's tragic death and how it shaped his research. We explore why rigid faith systems often collapse under scrutiny while flexible faith proves more resilient, how former fundamentalists frequently jump into new ideological extremes, and why developing "existential distress tolerance" might be the most crucial skill for our anxious age.
Whether you're questioning faith, have left religion behind, or simply want to understand this massive cultural shift, this episode offers profound insights into finding meaning and purpose at the intersection of psychology, philosophy, and spirituality. Van Tongeren challenges us to courageously engage life's existential realities rather than avoiding them—suggesting this honest confrontation might be the only path to flourishing.
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Tom Oord is back! This time, we're discussing his "main thing": open and relational theology. We explore what it means and its significance in reshaping our understanding of God, love, prayer, and more. Tom answers our questions graciously, and we try to convince Randy that he's wrong.
How is open and relational theology different from classical theism? What does it imply about prayer or freedom or evil and suffering? What does love have to do with it? Is it all just a bit too easy?
As always, Tom is a great sport and a hoot to talk to. We hope you find this conversation valuable.
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This episode explores the complexities of spiritual evolution and its impact on marriages and relationships. Our friend Keri Ladouceur shares her wisdom, and we discuss stories of navigating changing faith and the strain it can place on intimate partnerships. We cover how questioning beliefs impacts relationships, emotional labor amidst change, the stigma and fear surrounding deconstruction, open communication and mutual support, and what hope there is for couples undergoing religious transitions. If this is a place you find yourself, we hope this conversation is beneficial. You are not alone.
Content note: This episode contains profanity.
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Faith deconstruction has become a defining trend in American Christianity, and disagreement persists about what’s driving it. In this episode, we talk with Scot McKnight and Tommy Preson Phillips about their book Invisible Jesus, which considers why so many Christians are critically re-examining their faith. Rather than treating deconstruction as a problem to be solved, they argue that it's a response to real issues—abuse of power, rigid fundamentalism, and a version of Christianity that often looks nothing like Jesus.
Drawing on research from Pew, Gallup, and other studies, McKnight and Phillips unpack what people are actually saying when they step away from the faith communities they grew up in. Some leave Christianity altogether, but most are trying to rebuild something more honest and life-giving. What does it mean to lose faith in the institution but still be drawn to Jesus? And how should the church respond to that tension?
This conversation is for anyone who has wrestled with doubt, walked alongside someone in deconstruction, or wondered what’s next for the church in light of these shifts. Join us as we dig into what’s happening, why it matters, and what a more faithful future might look like.
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This is one of our favorite interviews we've ever done. Nicholas Ma (son of famed cellist Yo-Yo Ma) is a filmmaker best known for producing the 2018 documentary Won't You Be My Neighbor? about Fred Rogers. We speak with him about his latest documentary Leap of Faith, which follows a group of Christian pastors from diverse sociocultural and demographic backgrounds in the Grand Rapids, MI area for a year as they attempt to form community across theological and social dividing lines. The film is a challenging and raw exploration of vulnerability and what it means to practice Christian faith in our political moment. Nicholas himself is a gentle, kind, empathetic, and almost preternaturally wise person who made us a bit more hopeful about our situation. We also get a chance to discuss Mister Rogers and what we can learn from him in this moment.
The video clip of Nicholas playing piano with his dad on Mister Rogers' Neighborhood as a child can be seen in part here.
We had intended to release this episode at Christmas, but life got in the way. Somehow it seems even more fitting to release it today, when we remember Martin Luther King Jr. as we simultaneously inaugurate the most divisive and authoritarian President in our nation's history. We know that conversations like this can sometimes feel trite in contexts like that, like putting a band-aid on a hemorrhage. But Nicholas helps us refocus, to think not about what's insurmountable, but about what is manageable in our particular context. To look, as Fred said, for the helpers, and to ask again what it means to love our neighbor.
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This is a re-release of an episode from our first season: our first conversation with Kristin Kobes Du Mez, which happened to fall just after January 6, 2021. It seems fitting to revisit it now.
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In this episode, we chat with Kristin Kobes Du Mez about her book that's been making waves and is brilliantly titled Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation. This book is probably our favorite of 2020 and is a must-read. During the course of this interview, we chat about everything from toxic masculinity and power hungry religious leaders to Amy Grant and Tiffany. Seriously.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity.
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Brian Zahnd is back with us to discuss his favorite novel, Fyodor Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamazov. Brian is starting a public online course going through the book, which is notoriously philosophically and theologically rich, so we thought it would be fun to have him on to discuss its major themes and why it has been so influential in his life. We cover Dostoevsky's famously powerful presentation of the problem of suffering, the implications for theodicy, how Jesus features in the book, Dostoevsky's personal history, his influence as an author and psychologist, and more.
There's still time to join Brian's 10-week study of the book, which begins in January. Get tickets (donation of any amount) here.
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Jonathan Merritt joins us to discuss his children's book My Guncle and Me. We also discuss what it was like to grow up with a dad who was the president of the SBC, his experience being involuntarily outed, and how to maintain relationships across serious ideological and personal divides.
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Cheers!
Text us your questions!
This episode was recorded live at Theology Beer Camp 2024. We sat down with Brian McLaren and Tim Whitaker (from The New Evangelicals podcast) to discuss Brian's history in the emerging church movement, the current progressive religious movement (of which we're a part), the Christian nationalist backlash, and our political moment. For those of us who think of ourselves as progressive Christians, it's tempting to feel like we're carving a brand new space out of the ashes of evangelicalism, but of course there's a long history to what's happening now. Brian helps us think about where we've been, where we are now, and what might come next. This conversation was very impromptu, off the cuff, and occasionally raw. There are warnings but also hope and (from Brian at least) wisdom. We hope it's meaningful to you.
The books mentioned in this episode are:
- Prequel by Rachel Maddow
- A Fever in the Heartland by Timothy Egan
Check out the (unedited) video of this conversation here.
Content note: This episode contains profanity.
=====
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Cheers!
Text us your questions!
Jeff Cook is back with us to dive deeper into our conversation from a while back about the soul and why Kyle is a materialist (and why Randy thinks he's silly for it). We discuss the difference between the claim that God is non-physical and the claim that humans are, Jeff's reservations about materialism, the mystery of the Incarnation and Christ's dual natures, reduction in science, and a lot more.
If you'd like to ask a question about a recent episode to be featured on one of these bonus segments, email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com.
=====
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Cheers!
Text us your questions!
After more than three years, Kristin Kobes Du Mez is back on the show to discuss her new short film For Our Daughters, which examines the connection between the culture of submission and sexual abuse within the evangelical church and the Christian nationalist effort to influence the 2024 presidential election. It tells harrowing stories of survival and coverup and puts a spotlight on the theological and ecclesial structures that facilitate abuse and wield enormous power in our society. Randy and Elliot chat with Kristin about the film, as well as what she's been up to with the explosion of Jesus and John Wayne since our last conversation.
=====
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Text us your questions!
More Jim Stump!
We hope you loved Part I of our conversation with Dr. Jim Stump as much we did. Here's Part II! In this one, we talk about the problem of evil and more about AI. Also...aliens!
Seriously.
Cheers!
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Join us at Theology Beer Camp 2024!Get your tickets here to join us in Denver Oct. 17-19. Use code PASTPHIL2024. Let us know if you sign up!
=====
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Cheers!
Text us your questions!
Are Christianity and evolution compatible? Can a person trust God and trust science at the same time? Jim Stump wrote a book called The Sacred Chain: How Understanding Evolution Leads to Deeper Faith, and we are very much here for it.
In this interview, we chat about the Bible, science, evolution, the soul, afterlife, and many other juicy topics. We actually had so much to talk about that we had to make this a two-parter. Stay tuned!
Cheers!
=====
Join us at Theology Beer Camp 2024!Get your tickets here to join us in Denver Oct. 17-19. Use code PASTPHIL2024. Let us know if you sign up!
=====
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The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
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Cheers!
Text us your questions!
Welcome to Season 5!
We're joined by Sarah McCammon, a National Political Correspondent for NPR and author of The Exvangelicals, an insightful and empathetic look at the stories of those who have left white American evangelicalism. Sarah is also an exvangelical herself, so she has a unique perspective that blends both personal experience and rigorous journalism.
The Exvangelicals examines the complex dynamics of leaving a faith community that has deeply influenced one's upbringing and worldview and what it means to build a life after.
In our conversation, we explore how evangelical communities interact with broader American culture and the internal narratives they construct about the world. We also discuss identity, personal transformation, the impact of evangelical teachings on concepts of morality and discipline, the practice of corporal punishment, and the effects of these experiences on parenting and trauma.
Sarah's dual role as observer and participant brings a nuanced perspective to the discussion and allows her to offer an unusually informed and compassionate look at both the people navigating their way out of evangelical communities and those still inside.
=====
Join us at Theology Beer Camp 2024!Get your tickets here to join us in Denver Oct. 17-19. Use code PASTPHIL2024. Let us know if you sign up!
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
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Cheers!
Text us your questions!
How do we help pour into and steward our children's spirituality when we've deconstructed so much of the spirituality that we were raised in? And, even if we figure that out, how do we guide and encourage our kids on their spiritual journeys when there are so few quality resources and books that don't get all cheesy and cringe? We aren't the only ones asking these questions, are we?
Mariko Clark and Rachel Eleanor wrote and illustrated "The Book of Belonging", and it is an absolute treasure. The Book of Belonging is a children's storybook bible that is told in a way that will expand your kids (and your own) love for God and humans, drawing them into the story and fill them with wonder, identity and beauty. The illustrations are absolutely stunning...this book is truly incredible. Also, these ladies are fun and hilarious. Buckle up and preorder your copy of The Book of Belonging today.
To preorder The Book of Belonging, click here.
To check out the weird art and iconography Rachel mentioned, here you go:
Weirdly Buff and Manly Baby Jesus
Awkwardly Manly Baby Jesus
Baby Jesus with a Six Pack
Baby Jesus Breastfeeding
You're welcome. Cheers!
=====
Join us at Theology Beer Camp 2024!Get your tickets here to join us in Denver Oct. 17-19. Use code PASTPHIL2024. Let us know if you sign up!
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
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Cheers!
Good, bible believing Christians should just automatically be Republicans. Everybody knows this.
Have you heard that sort of argument or been led to believe that this is just the "biblical" way? If so, that probably means you've been given a hearty serving of propaganda. Our friend and philosopher, Scott Coley, wrote "Ministers of Propaganda: Truth, Power and the Ideology of the Religious Right", and in it, Scott exposes the rhetoric of the religious right for what it often is - propaganda that serves an underlying motivation. In this episode, we chat with Scott about how everything from politics to science to gender and racial issues and more are propagandized by the religious right to build fear and shut down arguments. Fascinating stuff.
Cheers!
=====
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Evangelical megachurch pastors saying cringe things is nothing new, right? However, there's a point when cringe turns destructive and abusive. That's what this episode is about.
Dallas/Ft. Worth megachurch pastor Josh Howerton said some very ugly and destructive things, and then doubled down with a weak (plagiarized) apology. Our friend, Sheila Gregoire, has some powerful, insightful and important things to say about what Josh said and the culture that is being cultivated in churches like this.
We're so grateful for Sheila's willingness to engage with us about this important topic.
Cheers!
Shifting Culture
Transformative conversations with leaders about the Kingdom of God and culture.
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
=====
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We speak with Bruce Reyes-Chow about his recent book Everything Good about God Is True, a primer on what it means to choose faith in the midst of a bleeding world and an often broken church. We discuss the Christian ethic of loving enemies, listening, having compassion across ideological division, embodying faith in the public square, biblical literalism, Christian formation, soteriological exclusivism, the eucharist, missions and colonialism, and that time Bruce hung out with Desmond Tutu.
You might notice we're experimenting with some new formatting in this episode. We'd love to hear your thoughts! Drop us a line at the address below or on our social media pages and let us know what you think. Or send along a voice memo to be potentially featured on the show.
Content note: this episode contains some profanity, as well as a monologue from John MacArthur, which is worse.
=====
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Cheers!
Jeff Cook is back with us to dive deeper into deconstruction, inspired by our interview with Keri Ladouceur, the Executive Director of the Post-Evangelical Collective. We discuss the nature of deconstruction, its corporate, personal, and ethical dimensions, and what it implies about what's next. And because we're nerds, we also touch on ecclesiology and postmodernism.
If you'd like to ask a question about a recent episode to be featured on one of these bonus segments, email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com.
[Note: episode image generated with AI.]
=====
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Cheers!
Psychologist and author Richard Beck joins us to discuss his recent book Hunting Magic Eels: Recovering an Enchanted Faith in a Skeptical Age. Richard is an engaging critic of some forms of contemporary "disenchanted" spirituality. He's also a fun dialogue partner and a good sport, who was willing to roll with Kyle's annoying philosophy questions. Some stuff we discuss in this conversation:
- Is our age really disenchanted?
- Does enchantment need to be transcendent?
- What's wrong with consumerist spirituality?
- What about the "spiritual but not religious" crowd?
- Are Catholics more enchanted than Protestants?
- What do dancing gorillas and paying attention have to do with God?
- What about mystical experiences?
- Is Kyle a narcissist and/or a sociopath?
And more!
=====
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Cheers!
David Gushee is back on the show to discuss his book Defending Democracy from Its Christian Enemies, an erudite, timely, and disturbing take on American democracy, its struggles with authoritarianism, and its place on the global political stage. We discuss such questions as: How are government and morality related? What does the United States have in common with France, Germany, Hungary, or Brazil? How close to fascism are we? How concerned should we be? Can we be in relationship with those who support authoritarian leaders? What is ARC and why can't we remember what it stands for? And a lot more!
This is also our first ever in person interview! In case you're wondering, David is even more fun in person.
Content note: This episode has some adult themes.
=====
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Cheers!
Believe it or not, this is our 100th episode! And what better way to spend it than diving back in with Peter Rollins, a guest who is unusually suited to the regular themes of our show, while also throwing some wrenches into pretty much everything we do. :-)
Picking up with where we left off in Part 1, we explore the sense in which Pete is a trinitarian Christian, some differences between Pete's and Kyle's philosophical approaches, the role of certain biblical themes in Pete's thought, his relationship to the historic Christian church, his beef with progressives, and a lot more. And we try really hard to get to the bottom of his whole negative theology thing.
You can find the transcript for this episode here.
The whiskey we taste in this episode is Barrell 15 Year Gray Label bourbon.
Content note: This episode has some adult themes and mild profanity.
=====
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Cheers!
Break out your dictionaries folks, this one got in the weeds a bit. But if you're familiar with Peter Rollins, you're probably not too surprised by that. Peter is a philosopher, public intellectual, and self-described anti-guru who writes and speaks extensively about concepts like the death of God, negative theology, "pyrotheology," and Atheism for Lent. He's been on our list to talk to since we started the podcast, and we're finally making it happen. And wouldn't you know it, we had so much to dig into that we had to talk to him again, so this will be a two-parter.
Fair warning: Peter has some challenging things to say, pretty much regardless of where you land on the religious or political spectrum. His ideas are not easy to swallow or to understand, but we did our best to get to the bottom of some of them. And we had a great time doing it. Let us know what you think!
You can find the transcript for this episode here.
The bourbon we taste in this episode is Weller 12.
Content note: This episode has some adult themes and mild profanity.
=====
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Cheers!
Trey Ferguson of the New Living Treyslation and Three Black Men podcasts joins us to discuss his new book Theologizin' Bigger: Homilies on Living Freely and Loving Wholly. We talk about the Bible, the difference between "theologizin'" and theology, the racial dynamics of deconstruction, why evangelicals are so obsessed with "facts," why they're prone to grifters, white theology vs. Black theology, shame, heresy, Twitter (I refuse to call it X), and what "Michael vs. LeBron" has in common with theological frameworks. Trey is insightful, hilarious, gregarious, and humble. We hope you love this conversation as much as we did.
You can find the transcript for this episode here.
=====
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Cheers!
In this episode, Kyle and Randy discuss the philosophy of the soul and its implications for religious belief, the lived experience of faith, and even ethics. Kyle is a materialist, which means he thinks humans are physical objects, and Randy leans towards dualism, which involves belief in a soul or non-physical part of a human being. Are there any good arguments either way? What do most philosophers think? What are the implications for religion? Does any of it matter? What does it have to do with Donald Trump? This one is definitely on the headier, more philosophical side, so strap in and try to check your assumptions at the door.
The bourbon we tasted in this episode is the exquisite cinnamon bomb RD1 Brazilian amburana-finished straight bourbon.
To skip to the interview, go to 8:40. You can find the transcript for this episode here.
Content note: this episode contains some profanity.
=====
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Cheers!
... drinking.
This is a more personal episode for us, particularly for Randy. As you know, we like alcohol around here, especially whiskey. In this episode, we chat about that and the presence it's had on our podcast and in our lives.
Can we have a "healthy relationship" with alcohol? What does that look like? How does that question get answered for each of us in honest ways? How do we responsibly balance our autonomy with the example we want to set for others?
Also, what kinds of conversations do we want to cultivate? (Hint: they're not necessarily churchy conversations or purely academic conversations, but conversations you might have in a bar.) What does this mean for the show going forward? And maybe most importantly, is there such a thing as a good mocktail?
The NA spirits we mixed in this episode are Monday "whiskey" and Martini Rossi Vibrante.
You can find the transcript for this episode here.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity.
=====
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Cheers!
David Gushee is an influential Christian ethicist who famously changed his mind about LGBTQ Christians. His 2014 book Changing Our Mind (now in its third edition) has been celebrated and widely recommended as an honest and forceful reckoning with the ethical issues surrounding LGBTQ Christians and the church's complicity in their exclusion, neglect, and abuse. It is a powerful and well-researched chronicle of David's journey from a traditional stance to an inclusive one, a journey that he completed while remaining theologically conservative. We are honored that David agreed to speak with us about this important book, and we look forward to more conversations about his many others in the near future!
The bourbon we tasted in this episode is Hardin's Creek Clermont.
To skip to the interview, go to 11:32. You can find the transcript for this episode here.
=====
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Cheers!
Philosopher Aaron Simmons joins us to discuss his new book Camping with Kierkegaard. It's all about living life in a way that is "worthy of your finitude," avoiding becoming an "asshole capitalist," and learning how to value the things in your life with the help of folks like Kierkegaard and Simone de Beauvoir. We discuss living faithfully, being present, living on purpose toward something you've chosen, and a lot more. There's a LOT to unpack in this one, and a couple interesting tangents that didn't make it into the final cut, so Patreon supporters, look out for those.
The whiskey we tasted in this episode is the Fercullen Irish Whiskey Blend from Bardstown Bourbon Company.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity. But it's philosophy, so it's fine.
To skip the alcohol tasting, go to 6:46. You can find the transcript for this episode here.
=====
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Cheers!
Where do we engage when we're done with evangelicalism, but we don't want to be done with the church? Thanks be to God, there are new signs of life springing up in the post-evangelical wasteland, and we're so here for it.
Keri Ladouceur leads one of those hopeful spaces called the Post Evangelical Collective. Keri is the Executive Director of the PEC, has been leading in influential church spaces for years, and she has some stories to tell. Keri's journey is one that's been marked by abuse, patriarchy, and sexism, but also by healing, goodness, beauty, and so much redemption. We're so excited about the work she is doing with the Post Evangelical Collective and can't wait to share Keri and the PEC with you.
The whiskey we tasted in this episode is Wild Turkey 101 12 Year Japanese Edition.
To skip the alcohol tasting, go to the 8:35. You can find the transcript for this episode here.
Cheers!
=====
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Cheers!
For New Year's, we're re-airing an episode from Season 1 in which we discuss God and love in the context of suffering, abuse, betrayal, and addiction with William Paul Young and Brad Jersak. It remains one of our most popular episodes to date, and we hope re-airing it will introduce it to new listeners. Enjoy! We'll be back on our regular schedule with new content on January 12.
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CONTENT NOTE: This episode contains references to trauma, abuse, suicide, and mental illness. Not recommended for children.
On this episode, we're joined by William Paul Young (author of The Shack and Eve) and Brad Jersak (author of A More Christlike God and Her Gates Will Never Be Shut). We discuss their new co-authored novella, The Pastor: A Crisis, a raw story of a fundamentalist pastor undergoing the judgment of God. But our conversation is much more wide-ranging than just the book. We discuss what it means to say that God is love, the nature of forgiveness, the metaphor of Hell, and more.
You can find the transcript for this episode here.
=====
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Cheers!
Merry Christmas! Brian Zahnd is back on the show to discuss his Christmas devotional The Anticipated Christ. We talk about why he's "trying to be religious," the difference between Christmas and Advent, the book of Isaiah, the Magnificat, what nonviolence has to do with Advent, the current Israel–Hamas war, and more.
We also spend a few minutes at the end just riffing on music. Why? Because Brian loves music and created an unconventional Advent playlist to go along with the book. And after our conversation, he created another one inspired by this episode! We strongly recommend rocking out to them while cooking Christmas dinner.
Here's a couple more links to things mentioned in the episode:
- Eggnog recipe
- Spiritual, Not Religious
The beverage we taste in this episode is ... eggnog. With some Eagle Rare, if you're so inclined.
You can find the transcript for this episode here.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity.
=====
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Cheers!
This is such a rich conversation. Dr. Willie James Jennings is an incredible theologian who teaches Systematic Theology and Africana Studies at Yale Divinity School. Dr. Jennings has written influential books like, The Christian Imagination: Theology and Origins of Race, After Whiteness: An Education in Belonging, and a groundbreaking commentary on the book of Acts, among a number of other books. Dr. Jennings is a treasure to the church and we loved chatting with him. We spoke about theology, race, whiteness, the book of Acts, LGBTQ+ inclusion and much more. Enjoy!
The whiskey we tasted in this episode is Old Fitzgerald Bottle in Bond 16 Year. Good luck finding that.
To skip the alcohol tasting, skip to the 8:10 mark. You can find the transcript for this episode here.
=====
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Cheers!
How do you process your identity and theology if you feel invisible as a person? What if your story, history, and experience are largely rejected and excluded from the culture you're a part of? How does that shape the way you see God and the world?
Dr. Grace Ji-Sun Kim is a Korean-American theologian who works in liberation and feminist theology and wrote the book Invisible asking those questions from her perspective as an Asian American woman. In this conversation, we talk about identity, whiteness, white supremacy, and how the Holy Spirit and the Asian concept of chi might be interwoven.
The bourbon we taste in this episode is a 1980 I.W. Harper. But don't go looking for it, because it's, you know, 43 years old. To skip the tasting, go to 7:19. You can find the transcript for this episode here.
Production note: Logic corrupted our files (thanks Apple), so we had to use Zoom audio this time. Apologies.
PS: Kyle was dealing with some family stuff and unfortunately couldn't make it for this interview. He'll be back next episode.
=====
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Jeff joins us to ask some questions about evil and get into the philosophical weeds a bit. What is the connection between God's nature and suffering? Can we say that suffering is meaningless? What was up with Leibniz? And a lot more.
If you'd like to ask a question about a recent episode to be featured on one of these bonus segments, email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com.
Content note: this episode contains mild profanity and discussion of evil, suffering, and abuse.
The transcript of this episode can be found here.
=====
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Cheers!
We discuss the history of evangelicalism with Isaac B. Sharp. Or rather, the alternative history of evangelicalism, for it differs in some significant ways from what you may have heard about how evangelicalism in America developed, and how most of us understand what it is today. Would it surprise you to learn there were once proud theologically liberal evangelicals? That there was a time when being evangelical did not obviously imply a conservative political stance or being white or straight? If so, Sharp's analysis in his book The Other Evangelicals will give helpful context to why that seems strange to us now (hint: it wasn't accidental).
The bourbon we taste in this episode is George T. Stagg from Buffalo Trace Distillery. To skip the tasting, go to 8:09. You can find the transcript for this episode here.
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Cheers!
We wrap our discussion of evil and suffering with a look at some other sorts of responses to the problem and a reflection on where we land personally. If you haven't heard part 1, start there first.
Due to the subject and the tone of this conversation, these episodes do not include a beverage tasting.
Content note: this conversation includes discussion of evil and suffering and is probably not suitable for children. Though we try to avoid explicit extreme examples where possible, there is mention of specific instances of harm, including to children.
You can find the transcript for this episode here.
=====
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Cheers!
How can people who believe in a good God account for the existence of pervasive suffering and evil? This is the oldest and most powerful objection to both belief in God's existence and religious practice, and it has been the subject of philosophical discussion and theological speculation spanning many religious traditions for thousands of years. We've run into it in several previous episodes and each time said we'd eventually focus on it. Here we are. This is part one of a two-part episode introducing the problem and some of the major responses to it (called theodicies), as well as how we think about it personally.
Nothing we say here should be considered definitive or even very confident, and we're certainly not done talking about it. We're barely scratching the surface of an unimaginably vast complex of issues, and we approach it with fear and trembling. We hope that comes through in the discussion.
Due to the subject and the tone of this conversation, these episodes do not include a beverage tasting.
Content note: this conversation includes discussion of evil and suffering and is probably not suitable for children, though we make every effort to avoid explicit extreme examples where possible.
You can find the transcript for this episode here.
=====
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Cheers!
Elliot has a few more questions about AI following our conversation with Derek Schuurman. Is AI a Tower of Babel moment? Is there any real reason for concern? Will it go so great that it makes us all soft? If you could live forever, would you? What about the end of the world?
Big questions! We do our best for answering on the fly. If you'd like to ask a question about a recent episode to be featured on one of these bonus segments, email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com.
Content note: this episode contains profanity.
The transcript of this episode can be found here.
=====
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Cheers!
The rise of artificial intelligence has happened at a startlingly rapid rate, and it seems like it's only accelerating by the month. Whether it's AI writing (plagiarizing) college papers and lazy pastors' sermons, potentially curing horrific diseases, making fake humans, or taking over the world, we all have an endless amount of questions when it comes to what to expect from AI.
Dr. Derek C. Schuurman is a computer science professor at Calvin University and has written extensively on the rise of AI and what a Christian's proper response to it might be. In this episode, we talk to Derek about all of those questions and more. Cheers!
In this episode, we tasted Fortaleza Anejo Tequila. To skip the tasting, jump to 8:27.
You can find the transcript for this episode here.
=====
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Cheers!
Our friend Jeff Cook joins us for a new Q&A segment to reflect on our conversation with Rob Schenck (see parts 1 and 2 of that conversation here and here). This is our second installment of what will become a regular bonus segment with Jeff unpacking the content of certain episodes. You can hear the first installment, on LQBTQ affirmation and the church, at our Patreon (free for everyone!) here.
If you'd like to ask a question about a recent episode to be featured on one of these bonus segments, email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com.
Content note: this episode contains profanity.
The transcript of this episode can be found here.
=====
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The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
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Cheers!
In the second part of our interview with Rob Schenck, a former Washington insider and heavy hitter in the evangelical pro-life lobbying industry, we discuss gun culture among American Christians and how asking questions about it ultimately cost him the organization he built and led for decades and led to him being ostracized by longtime friends and colleagues. Why are so many Christians so obsessed with guns to the point that they're unwilling to even question their centrality in their lives or their consistency with their stated pro-life convictions? Why are they seemingly unconcerned about the dangers guns pose or opposed to sensible gun legislation? How should we understand the soundbites that often get bandied about in these conversations? Rob patiently and powerfully takes us through his experience with these issues. We also discuss a bit of Dietrich Bonhoeffer's influence on Rob's trajectory.
The beverage featured in this episode is Bowmore 18. Jump to 3:51 to skip the tasting.
You can find the transcript for this episode here.
Content note: This episode contains discussion of gun violence.
=====
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Cheers!
Season 4 is here! To kick it off, we've got a 2-parter for you with Rob Schenck, a former Washington insider and heavy hitter in the evangelical Christian lobbying industry. Rob was an influential voice in the pro-life movement for decades, but lost his position, and his funding, when he began to question the consistency of the evangelical position on guns with their stated pro-life convictions. His story is featured in the Emmy Award-winning 2016 documentary The Armor of Light. In Part 1, we speak with Rob about his background, his anti-abortion activism, and how his views have evolved on that issue. Part 2 will focus on evangelical gun culture and its consistency with a pro-life ethic.
The beverage featured in this episode is New Glarus Pilsner. Jump to 7:29 to skip the tasting.
You can find the transcript for this episode here.
Content note: This episode contains graphic discussion of abortion.
=====
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Cheers!
We speak with Dr. Bradley Onishi, a religion scholar whose latest book, Preparing for War: The Extremist History of White Christian Nationalism and What Comes Next, explores the rise of the extremist religious right in America and its evolution from the 1960s through the insurrection at the Capitol on January 6, 2021.
We discuss his personal transformation from conservative Christian to scholar to unbeliever, his insights into January 6 and why he believes he could have been one of the insurrectionists, why evangelicals embrace conspiracy theories, the role religion played (and didn't play) in shaping the Republican party, and several interesting tidbits about everyone's favorite Family Man, James Dobson. We also delve into the American Redoubt, a survivalist and prepper movement that dreams of a Christian society within the United States, and its earnest preparations for a looming civil war.
Dr. Onishi offers a stark and unsettling warning: the distrust in our civic spaces and the readiness for religious violence could indeed be harbingers of our future.
The beverage we tasted in this episode is Penderyn Legend single malt Welsh whisky.
To skip the tasting, go to 5:33.
=====
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Cheers!
Many Protestants don't understand or appreciate how transformational Vatican II was for the Catholic Church and the whole global Christian Church in general. Our friend and Catholic theologian Shaun Blanchard co-wrote a book called Vatican II: A Very Short Introduction. In this episode, we chat with Shaun about the size, scope, and impact of Vatican II in the 1960s, and we wonder about when the next changes at the next Vatican Council might be.
In this episode, we tasted a barrel select of Eagle Rare from our friends at Story Hill BKC in Milwaukee, WI.
To skip the tasting, go to 9:21.
=====
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Cheers!
If you're an American evangelical or used to be, there's a good chance you've heard of the Enneagram. You may have even run into it in another context or heard about it from friends who are really into personality tests. We've discussed it briefly on the show before, and we've wanted to eventually give it its own episode because Randy has found it really beneficial and Kyle is a bit of a skeptic.
Lo and behold, one of our Patreon supporters, Jeff Cook, is, like, the Enneagram guru, in addition to having a background as both a pastor and a philosopher. Go figure. Jeff reached out and proposed a conversation about what the Enneagram is, what its particular strengths are, and some of Kyle's objections to it. He's joined by TJ Wilson, his co-host of Around the Circle and two other Enneagram-focused podcasts.
It's a fun, serious, personal, and respectful conversation about a topic that a lot of Christians today care a lot about. An argument, in the best sense.*
Some resources mentioned in the conversation are:
- Around the Circle podcast
- Start Here podcast
- Movie Typing podcast
- What’s Wrong with the Enneagram (Kyle's article)
The beverages sampled in this episode are:
- Glenmorangie Signet
- Whiskey Acres Straight Rye
- Founders Brewing Co. Breakfast Stout
To skip the tasting, go to 3:38.
Note: in philosophy, arguments are good* things.
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Join us for our next private tasting for Patreon supporters on August 18 in Milwaukee!
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The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
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Cheers!
Tom Oord is back! Dr. Thomas Oord and his daughter Alexa compiled and edited a book called, "Why the Church of the Nazarene Should be Fully LGBTQ+ Affirming". We wanted to talk to them about the book because everyone in the church (not just the Church of the Nazarene) is talking about human sexuality and whether or not the church should be LGBTQ+ affirming.
LGBTQ+ inclusion and affirmation is something that's really important to us, and we love making space to have these much needed conversations with scholars and, more importantly, queer people in and around the church to keep moving this essential conversation forward.
In this episode we tasted Little Elliot, a blueberry session mead from Manic Meadery. Jump to 7:05 to skip the tasting.
Cheers!
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To chat with us and Bridget Eileen Rivera on August 17, subscribe at the Pappy level at our Patreon.
=====
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The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
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Cheers!
We speak with theologian and philosopher (and former pastor) Thomas Jay Oord about his new book The Death of Omnipotence and the Birth of Amipotence. We cover Tom's objections to the classical idea that God is all powerful, including that it's unbiblical, philosophically unsound, and makes the problem of evil impossible to solve.
It's a fun interview and Tom is a good sport about putting up with Kyle's objections and quibbles. We get into the weeds a bit on this one, but given the significance of Tom's thesis and its implications for the problem of evil and suffering (and theism itself), the weeds are important. We barely scratch the surface of these issues, and in some ways this is an introductory discussion to other aspects of Tom's thought about God, which we hope to explore more with him in future conversations. As always, let us know your thoughts!
In this episode, we tasted the exquisite Barrell Bourbon Batch 034. As Randy said, "Tasting this bourbon right now makes doing this podcast worth it." Grab a bottle if you see one. To skip the tasting, jump to 8:05.
Content note: This episode contains discussion of the problem of evil, suffering, and theodicy, as well as some mild profanity.
=====
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The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
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Cheers!
If you heard our recent episode on hell and universalism, you may recall that Randy mentioned having Keith DeRose, a philosopher at Yale, on the show at some point to respond to some of the objections Kyle had to universalism (the idea that everyone is eventually reconciled to God). Well, we reached out to Keith and he graciously agreed to chat with us. Our conversation covers more ground than just universalism though; we also discuss certainty, the problem of evil and theodicy, and why Keith is uncomfortable at Easter and funerals. And yes, he responds to some of Kyle's worries about universalism. It's on the headier end of the spectrum for our episodes, but we like to throw those in every now and then. We hope you enjoy it.
The resources that Keith mentions in the episode can be found on this PPWB-specific page that he put up at his site. How cool is that?
In this episode, we tasted the stunning Elijah Craig Barrel Proof (B522). To skip the tasting, jump to 5:41.
Content note: instances of horrendous evil are discussed in this episode in the context of the problem of evil and theodicy. This is not an episode for children.
=====
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Cheers!
Content note: This episode contains themes of sexual abuse and rape.
Sheila Gregoire is an author who has written several books that break the mold of Christian books about sex and marriage. Her latest book, She Deserves Better, is about raising girls as followers of Christ in ways that leave purity culture and teaching about modesty in the dust while showing us a better way. We also talked to Sheila about her 2021 book The Great Sex Rescue, in which she points out the inherent misogyny in a vast majority of Christian books about sex and proposes a new way to create a sexual dynamic that promotes flourishing for women and men.
In this episode, we tasted Driftless Glen's Port Barrel Finished Bourbon.
If you're not interested in the bourbon tasting, skip to the 7:00 mark for the interview.
Cheers!
=====
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Cheers!
Every now and then we like to talk to someone who is an expert in something we know almost nothing about. What better topic than philosophy and neuroscience? Andy Clark is Professor of Cognitive Philosophy at the University of Sussex, and is a well-known voice within philosophy of mind, pushing the boundaries of how we conceive of the brain, its connections with our environment, and in his new book, how it actively constructs our experience through prediction. The book is The Experience Machine: How Our Minds Predict and Shape Reality. We have a delightfully nerdy, scientific, and humble conversation with Andy about everything from why we sometimes feel our phones vibrating when they're not there, to whether AI can match human brains, to psychedelics, to whether there is a hard problem of consciousness. We even get him to talk a bit about religion. We barely scratch the surface, but it was a lot of fun!
The beverage we taste in this episode is Blanton's Single Barrel bourbon from Buffalo Trace Distillery.
Audio note: we weren't able to use our standard recording setup for this one, so if we sound a little odd, that's why. Apologies!
To skip the tasting, go to 6:53.
Image credit: The New Yorker Magazine
=====
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Cheers!
Do you keep a healthy distance between yourself and the book of Revelation? Have a loved one who believes super weird things about Revelation? If so, you're in good company.
Scot McKnight wrote a brilliant book called Revelation for the Rest of Us that turns all of those weird ways of interpreting Revelation on their heads and shows us what Revelation truly is. It turns out that the book of Revelation is a brilliantly subversive book about resisting the evil ways of whatever empire the people of God find themselves living in, whether it's Babylon, Rome, or America. Revelation calls us to give our faithfulness and allegiance to the slaughtered Lamb who has triumphed over the violent and oppressive ways of the empire.
Scot is a brilliant New Testament scholar who has become a great friend of the podcast. We're excited to share more of Scot with you.
In this episode, we tasted Leopold Bros. Straight Bourbon.
To skip the tasting, go to 7:42.
=====
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Cheers!
In this special Easter episode, Kyle and Randy discuss all their questions about resurrection. They cover its significance to them, its coherence, whether it makes any sense to hope for it, apologetic approaches to it, how much it matters, and why Randy finds conversations about it kind of frustrating. Happy Easter!
Extra resources (including those mentioned in the episode):
- N.T. Wright: Surprised by Hope and The Resurrection of the Son of God
- Sufjan Stevens: Carrie and Lowell
- We explore similar themes in another episode about afterlife in general: "What Happens When We Die?"
- For Brian McLaren's take on the importance of the resurrection, see this Patreon extra.
- For Kyle's take on why it matters, see "Why, Today, I Believe in Resurrection"
- For this episode's Patreon bonus question, see here.
The beverage we tasted in this episode was Coeur de Cuvée Blend #11 from Side Project Brewing.
To skip the tasting, jump to 6:28.
Literary Guise Podcast: A Book Club for Modern Men
A cocktail-infused book podcast, examining positive and toxic portrayals of masculinity.
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
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Cheers!
Who will be saved in the end? Does the Bible support eternal conscious torment, annihilationism, or ultimate reconciliation (or all three)? Can a good God condemn a majority of human beings who've ever lived to eternal hell? In this episode we tackle these questions and more, and we find out that Randy and Kyle don't quite agree on this one.
In this episode, we tasted both Kinnickinnic Whiskey by Great Lakes Distillery and Heaven's Door Distillery's Straight Bourbon Whiskey.
To skip the tasting, jump to 7:10.
The resources mentioned in this episode are:
- C.S. Lewis: The Great Divorce
- Rob Bell: Love Wins
- David Bentley Hart: That All Shall Be Saved
- Brad Jersak: Her Gates Will Never Shut
- Event Horizon movie (don't watch it, it's terrible)
=====
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Cheers!
Are science and religion compatible? Should there be any crossover whatsoever? Why is it dangerous when we try to make our science fit into our religion? These are questions that Randy and Kyle chat about in our latest episode. Kyle strongly thinks that science and religion are in completely different categories and should almost never mix. Randy like the "almost" in that statement.
The guys really, honestly tried to have a debate in this episode...we'll see if they were successful.
The whiskey we tasted in this episode is the outstanding (for the price) Smoke and Sea by Oppidan.
=====
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The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
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Cheers!
Bonnie Kristian is a journalist who writes for Christianity Today and has been published in The New York Times, The Week, CNN, The Daily Beast, and many more. Bonnie wrote the book Untrustworthy: The Knowledge Crisis Breaking Our Brains, Polluting Our Politics, and Corrupting Christian Community. The title says it all. How can we have good faith conversations and dialogue when we're dealing with "alternative facts" and call every report we don't agree with "fake news"? These are important questions for all of us.
The resources mentioned in the episode are:
- Nancy L. Rosenblum and Russell Muirhead - A Lot of People Are Saying: The New Conspiracism and the Assault on Democracy
- Radiolab - Debatable
- George Yancy - "Dear White America"
- Bo Burnham - "Welcome to the Internet" [explicit]
In this episode, we tasted Meyers's Single Barrel Select Rum from Story Hill BKC.
To skip the introduction and tasting, jump to 10:42.
=====
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Cheers!
Brad Jersak is an Eastern Orthodox theologian, author, and great friend of this podcast. Brad recently published a book called Out of the Embers: Faith After the Great Deconstruction. In this interview, we chat about what Brad calls the Great Deconstruction, the history and tradition of deconstruction within and outside of our faith tradition, why Brad is a devotee of Simone Weil, and how to move forward in your faith after deconstruction (if you can).
In this episode, we tasted Hooten Young's 6 Year Cabernet Cask Finished Whiskey from our friends at Story Hill BKC in Milwaukee, WI. Support also in from Culver's Painting in Brookfield, WI.
Cheers!
=====
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The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
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Cheers!
Humility is one of those fleeting virtues in our world, and it feels like we need a healthy dose. Being comfortable with what we know and what we don't know, what we're good at and what we're not, and not trying to live in hubris and pretense. It's not easy, but it is really important.
In this episode, Randy and Kyle talk about humility, pride, certainty, apophatic theology, and more. In the most humble of ways, of course.
The beer we tasted in this episode is Flesh to Stone barleywine from Bottle Logic. Thank you Doreen!
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The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
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Cheers!
Randy S. Woodley is a Native American theologian, community builder, and seed farmer, and sees little difference between those vocations. We speak with him about the relationship between Christianity, Judaism, and Native American religion, the contrasts and similarities between indigenous and Western worldviews, why he thinks the Bible shouldn't have been translated into indigenous languages, and what a sweat lodge is like. He's a prolific author with a podcast of his own, as well as a down to earth guy (literally and theologically). The books discussed or mentioned in the episode are:
- Indigenous Theology and the Western Worldview – Randy Woodley
- Shalom and the Community of Creation – Randy Woodley
- Mission and the Cultural Other – Randy Woodley
- Healing the Soul Wound – Eduardo Duran
The bourbon we sampled in this episode is a New Riff Single Barrel Barrel Select store pick from Story Hill BKC.
The beverage tasting is at 1:11. To skip to the main segment, go to 5:03.
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The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
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- Email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com
Cheers!
For New Year's, we're re-airing an episode from Season 1 in which we discuss the question "What is truth?" We think it's as timely now as it was when we first released it and probably deserves a bit more attention than it got then. We hope you enjoy re-listening or perhaps catching it for the first time. We'll be back on our regular schedule with new content on January 13.
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Truth is a tricky term these days, with everyone believing their own "facts" or having their own "truths" or "alternative facts." How does a philosopher see truth? What is a healthy pastoral way to approach and pursue truth? Is there such a thing as truth at all, let alone "absolute truth," as so many Christians attest?
Our resident pastor and philosopher dive in and bring us into a really fun and healthy conversation about truth that our society would do well to engage.
The whiskey we sample in this episode is Four Roses Small Batch Select from the always stellar Four Roses Bourbon. The beverage tasting is at 1:11. To skip to the main segment, go to 5:03.
The article that Kyle quotes in the conversation about humility can be found here. The episode that is referenced that had not yet been aired at the time of this recording is S01E23: "A Philosopher and a Philosopher Ruin Your Theology: Interview with Nick Oschman."
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Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
- Rate & review us on Apple & Spotify
- Tweet us at @PPWBPodcast, @robertkwhitaker, and @RandyKnie
- Follow & message us on Facebook & Instagram
- Watch & comment on YouTube
- Email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com
Cheers!
Merry Christmas! In this episode, we talk with Kelley Nikondeha about her book The First Advent in Palestine: Reversals, Resistance, and the Ongoing Complexity of Hope. Kelley helps us reimagine the meaning of Advent by taking us into the complex political, religious, and ethnic landscape that forms the backdrop of the Christmas story, and encourages us to trade our often whitewashed, Americanized, empire-friendly understanding of the story for something grittier, more authentic, and more moving. How does the conflict between Israel and Palestine affect the typical American Christian's understanding of incarnation? What do most people get wrong about the story of Jesus's birth? What's up with those angels? Get the book and listen to this conversation for insights on these and many other timely topics.
The resources mentioned in this episode are:
- Womanist Midrash by Wilda C. Gafney
- Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes by Kenneth E. Bailey
- The First Christmas by Marcus J. Borg and John Dominic Crossan
Also, check out the Philosophy vs. Improv podcast, hosted by The Partially Examined Life.
The beverage we tasted in this episode is Christmas Ale by Anchor Brewing Company.
The tasting is at 0:36. To skip to the interview, go to 3:19.
Content note: this episode contains discussion of violence, rape, trauma, and some mild profanity.
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Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
- Rate & review us on Apple & Spotify
- Tweet us at @PPWBPodcast, @robertkwhitaker, and @RandyKnie
- Follow & message us on Facebook & Instagram
- Watch & comment on YouTube
- Email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com
Cheers!
Dave Lutz is a therapist in Seattle who works with families, couples, men, youth, and more. He's also a former college pastor at a mega-church whose faith journey has evolved and simplified into a spacious and beautiful place. And he's Randy's former college pastor who is in many ways to blame for who Randy is and what he's doing on this podcast. Dave recently wrote a book called Freedom for the Ragged Saint, and we took that as an opportunity to share this beautiful person with our PPWB community. We talk about deconstruction, growth, conservatism, order, method, minimalism, systems theory, and much more.
The whiskey we tasted in this episode is Davidson Reserve Small Batch bourbon.
The tasting is at 3:59. To skip to the interview, go to 7:08.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity.
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
- Rate & review us on Apple & Spotify
- Tweet us at @PPWBPodcast, @robertkwhitaker, and @RandyKnie
- Follow & message us on Facebook & Instagram
- Watch & comment on YouTube
- Email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com
Cheers!
We were raised in the church, and now it's our turn to parent our kids and figure out how to pass on a healthy spiritual journey to them. We don't really know how to do it, but we know we don't want to do it in ways that we were raised on in the church.
Does that sound familiar? Bekah McNeel wrote Bringing Up Kids When the Church Lets You Down from exactly that perspective. In this episode, we chat with Bekah about her experiences growing up in the church, working in the church, being let down by the church, and then trying to figure out how she's going to raise her kids in the church. So many exvangelical parents have that same experience, trying to navigate faith and spirituality with our kids in a way that isn't manipulative, that offers choices, and that doesn't have to be deconstructed as they age. The people and resources mentioned in the conversation are:
- Mothers of Massive Resistance: White Women and the Politics of White Supremacy - Elizabeth Gillespie McRae
- Linda Kay Klein (author of Pure: Inside the Evangelical Movement that Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free)
- Martin Brokenleg
- The Spiritual Child: The New Science on Parenting for Health and Lifelong Thriving - Lisa Miller
In this episode, we tasted the exquisite Nashville Barrel Company's 8 Year Rye. The tasting is at 3:57. To skip to the main segment, go to 7:26.
Content note: this episode contains discussion of sex and some mild profanity.
We need your help.If you value what we're doing and want us to continue, please consider supporting us through our 2022 end of year giving campaign. The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
- Rate & review us on Apple & Spotify
- Tweet us at @PPWBPodcast, @robertkwhitaker, and @RandyKnie
- Follow & message us on Facebook & Instagram
- Watch & comment on YouTube
- Email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com
Cheers!
Our second political episode ever! Does it have anything to do with the elections occurring next week? You bet! Did we invite this guest on the show to trash nationalism some more? Sure did! BUT: Paul Miller is not our typical guest. For one thing, he's a self-described conservative patriot. He's a professor of International Affairs at Georgetown University in Washington, D.C. He worked for George W. Bush. And he's a Christian (a Baptist to be specific). From that perspective, he mounts an unflinching case against Christian nationalism in his book The Religion of American Greatness: What's Wrong with Christian Nationalism.
We don't see eye to eye on everything with Paul, but we're definitely on the same page about the seriousness and the urgency of this movement within American Christianity that has taken over an entire party and is actively threatening to overthrow American democracy, or as Paul calls it, the liberal experiment of self-governance. It's important stuff, and people on opposite sides of a lot of political and moral issues should be talking to each other about it. So that's what we do here.
A couple books mentioned in the interview are:
- Mere Civility by Teresa Bejan
- The Case for Nationalism by Rich Lowry
The beverage we sample is Willett Family Estate Small Batch 4 Year Rye. The beverage tasting is at 5:11. To skip to the main segment, go to 7:00.
Want to support us?
- Subscribe to our Patreon
- Rate & review us on Apple & Spotify
Contact us:
- Tweet us at @PPWBPodcast, @robertkwhitaker, and @RandyKnie
- Follow & message us on Facebook & Instagram
- Watch & comment on YouTube
- Email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com
Cheers!
Austen Hartke is a transgender Christian man who wrote the book Transforming: the Bible and the Lives of Transgender Christians. The book is a gift to the trans Christian community, as well as to parents, church leaders, and the church in general. While the church and politicians debate and degrade transgender people's existence, they are trying to live lives without loneliness, isolation, and self-hatred. Austen's book does an incredible job of sharing the stories of real life trans and non-binary people who grew up in the church. He frames the conversation Biblically and theologically and shares his own story. We're excited to share Austen's voice and perspective, and to do something that far too few people are doing today--actually listening to the perspective and story of trans people who are trying to love themselves and love Jesus.
The resources Austen mentions in the interview are:
- Transmission Ministry Collective
- Transfaith: A Transgender Pastoral Resource - Christina Beardsley & Chris Dowd
The beverage we sample in the episode is Chicken Cock Kentucky Straight Rye from our friends at Story Hill BKC.
The beverage tasting is at 2:20. To skip to the main segment, go to 5:50.
Content note: this episode contains discussion of suicide that may not be suitable for younger listeners.
Support the showDon't forget to rate & review us on Apple & Spotify!
Contact us:
- Tweet us at @PPWBPodcast, @robertkwhitaker, and @RandyKnie
- Follow & message us on Facebook & Instagram
- Watch & comment on YouTube
- Email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com
Cheers!
Sometimes it's appropriate to carefully weigh all sides of an issue, patiently sorting through reasons, listening to perspectives, and respectfully dialoging with people who believe differently. We spend most of our time on this podcast trying to commend and practice that sort of thing. On the other hand, sometimes ideas are just bad, and it's appropriate to say when something is dumb or harmful and move on. As Qohelet of Ecclesiastes might say, there's a time for argument, and a time for derision. You're gonna get a little more of the second thing in this episode.
We tackle the doctrine of biblical inerrancy, the 20th century invention of white American evangelical men, which holds that the Bible is without error in the original manuscripts. We discuss where the view comes from, what seems to motivate it, the most prominent version of it accepted by contemporary evangelicals (the "Chicago Statement"), the influence it's had, and why we think it's hopelessly misguided. Towards the end we also discuss the similarities between inerrancy and originalism about the American constitution. Just to make sure we piss off as many people as possible.
Some of the resources mentioned or discussed in the conversation are:
- The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy
- "How the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy became a litmus test"
- Five Views on Biblical Inerrancy
- Pete Enns on his panel discussion on inerrancy at the 2013 ETS meeting
The beverage featured in the episode is Laphroaig 10 Year Scotch.
The beverage tasting is at 2:26. To skip to the main segment, go to 6:00.
Content note: this episode contains profanity. We couldn't help it.
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This one is for the whiskey geeks. In this special bonus episode, we join our friends TJ, Chuck, and Brian at the Power of Bourbon YouTube channel for a blind-tasting of six exquisite bourbons. Along the way, we also find time to chat a bit about our podcast and introduce ourselves to their subscribers. And now we're sharing the experience with you, so you can get to know them! What you hear here is a slightly condensed version of the livestream we did on their channel. You can find the full unedited video version here.
If you're not into bourbon, we won't be offended at all if you skip this one. Check back in a week for our next regular episode. Teaser: we have some thoughts about biblical inerrancy.
SPOILER: We reveal what bourbons we taste as we're tasting them, but if you want to know ahead of time, or want to learn more about them after you listen, here they are:
- Old Forester 117 Whiskey Row Fire Edition
- Bardstown Discovery Series #6
- Hardin's Creek Jacob's Well
- 4 Roses Single Barrel Barrel Strength OESV
- Lux Row 12 Year Double Barrel
- Woodford Reserve Master's Collection Oat Grain
Production note: this was a YouTube livestream with six people in different locations, so the quality is what it is.
Content note: this episode is entirely about bourbon, drinking bourbon, guessing what bourbon we're drinking, loving bourbon, paying too much money for bourbon, etc. So, you know, 21+.
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We speak with philosopher James (Jamie) K.A. Smith about his new book How to Inhabit Time: Understanding the Past, Facing the Future, Living Faithfully Now. It's a contemplative exploration of what it means to be a temporal creature, a being constituted by a past and oriented toward a future. If that sounds heady, it's honestly one of the most spiritual and restful books we've featured on the show, and it's also philosophically informed and beautifully written. Jamie also loves music, and certain songs are featured prominently in the book, and there's a Spotify playlist that accompanies it which we'll link here when it's released. The books, articles, songs, and films mentioned in the conversation are:
- Gilead - Marilynne Robinson
- Image Journal
- The Brothers Karamazov - Fyodor Dostoevsky
- Letter from Birmingham Jail - Martin Luther King, Jr.
- The Maternal Eye of Sally Mann - Sarah Boxer
- Every Time I Hear That Song - Brandi Carlile
- We Americans - The Avett Brothers
- If We Were Vampires - Jason Isbell
- I'm Not My Season - Fleet Foxes
- Wading in Waist-High Water: The Lyrics of Fleet Foxes
- About Time
The beverage we tasted is Elijah Craig Toasted Barrel bourbon.
The beverage tasting is at 4:10. To skip to the interview, go to 7:10.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity.
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Stanley Hauerwas. Do we need to say more? The man is the preeminent living American theologian and has formed and shaped Christian thought and practice for decades. Stanley is a gift to the Church, and we loved chatting with him. We talked about Kierkegaard, pacifism, how to be a Christian in America today and much more. The audio for this episode is not to our regular standard. We apologize for that, and hope you can hang in there...it's worth it when we're talking to a treasure like Stanley Hauerwas.
We tasted the incredible 12 Year Glenfarclas...don't pass it by if you find some.
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In this episode, we chatted with John Walton, one of the foremost Evangelical Old Testament scholars alive. Dr. Walton teaches Old Testament at Wheaton College in Illinois. John has also written groundbreaking books about Genesis 1 and 2, commentaries on Genesis and Job and many more books. We chatted about creation, ancient people groups and cultures that the Bible was written in, inspiration and much more.
We sampled Toast by the always delicious Basil Hayden. Cheers!
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Why is "bar" part of the theme of our show (besides the obvious joke)? Kyle and Randy break this down with the help of an excellent article by Rich Manning called "The Complicated Journey from Holy Studies to Hospitality," which interviews various bartenders about their experiences in the seemingly contrasting spaces of the hospitality industry and the church.
The article gives us occasion to discuss why we do adult beverage tastings, why people are often more comfortable in bars than churches, Randy's time in the hospitality industry, what we think about the risk of alcoholism, and more. It also gives us an opportunity to tease our Patreon in our regular episode feed. If you're already a subscriber, catch the full conversation over at our Patreon page. If you're not, enjoy this teaser and consider subscribing at www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher. Thanks for your support!
The bourbon featured in this episode is Noteworthy (Randy) and Bardstown Discovery Series (Kyle).
Production note: we don't typically use our usual fancy setup for bonus content, so apologies that the audio quality is a bit lower than our regular episodes.
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Deconstruction. What is it, why are so many doing it, and why are so many others apparently so threatened by it? We've said a few times on the show that we don't want to be just another deconstruction podcast, but we've never quite fully explained what we mean. So we sat down to work through our own experiences with deconstruction and what we've heard from others, to try to put our finger on what it is about it that leaves us wanting more, and to think together about what might be a richer alternative. Along the way, we try to be as respectful as we can to those going through it--which includes all of us in one way or another--and we also describe the weaknesses of some prominent critiques of it that we've heard. We hope this conversation will be beneficial to you if, like us, you've had reason to question the faith that you were given.
The book Randy mentions in the conversation is Radical Amazement by Judy Cannato.
The beverage we taste in this episode is Elliot's Revenge from the always stellar Manic Meadery.
The beverage tasting is at 8:25. To skip to the interview, go to 12:36.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity, mention of abuse, and some adult language.
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Brian McLaren is at it again, writing a book for people on the edge of Christianity, just barely holding on. Do I Stay Christian? is a brilliant book that takes a very honest look at Christianity, ponders reasons to go, and reasons to stay, while presenting us with a new kind of Christianity...one that's more Christ-like and rooted in this moment and on this earth we find ourselves on. I know...weird, right?
In this episode, we tasted both the spectacular Wild Turkey Father and Son 13 Year and a select offering from New Riff Distilling.
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Our first discussion with Beth Allison Barr and Scot McKnight at the end of Season 1 was so popular and helpful that they wanted to come back a second time to answer more questions about biblical translations, gender, and bias. We cover the editing process, translation committees, trusting the right experts, different translation styles, why translations aren't more diverse, what Beth and Scot are up to next, and more. These two obviously enjoy one another and have a great time talking through the complexities of how translations come together, what purposes they serve, and what makes a good one. Hint: the ESV isn't their favorite.
Some of the works mentioned in the conversation are:
- "The Desire of the Woman: A Response to Susan Foh's Interpretation" - Rachel Green Miller
- "Losing Our (Medieval) Religion? The Cost of Not Teaching History…" - Beth Allison Barr
- "A Pastor’s Quick Guide to Reliable Historical Research" - Beth Allison Barr
- "Ideas about Women Matter: A Resource List for Women in Church History" - Beth Allison Barr
- Stony the Road We Trod: African American Biblical Interpretation
- Abuelita Faith: What Women on the Margins Teach Us about Wisdom, Persistence, and Strength - Kat Armas
- Womanist Midrash: A Reintroduction to the Women of the Torah and the Throne - Wilda C. Gafney
- The Blue Parakeet - Scot McKnight
The whiskey we sample in this episode is Hibiki Japanese Harmony. It's delightful.
The beverage tasting is at 1:26. To skip to the interview, go to 5:19.
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Buckle up, friends...this is a major episode.
Lisa Sharon Harper wrote Fortune, which dives into and details the history of her ancestors from Africa, to slave ships, to plantations and displaced and colonized Native Americans, all the way through to her own lived experience and the trauma, bravery, and resilience she carries in her own body through her ancestors. The book details the history and making of America in brutally honest ways...ways we all need to hear. This interview is raw, honest, challenging, beautiful, and she wraps it up by taking us to church. Can somebody say, "Amen!"?!
The whiskey we tasted in this episode is Maker's Mark Private Selection. It's delicious.
The beverage tasting is at 3:11. To skip to the interview, go to 6:54.
Content note: this episode contains discussion of rape, slavery, drugs, racial violence, and some mild profanity.
Smells Like Humans
Like spending time with funny friends talking about curious human behavior.
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
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Does God move supernaturally in our world today? Should we expect miracles? These are questions that New Testament scholar Craig Keener investigated, documented, and wrote about in his book Miracles Today. The book is fascinating...and a bit frustrating, but also compelling and deeply researched. Dr. Keener has also written a ridiculous amount of scholarly work on the New Testament, and we go into some of that expertise for our Patreon supporters, so subscribe if you're interested in some NT geeky time. Its good fun.
The beer we tasted in this episode is Ghost Note by Casey Brewing.
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In this episode, we speak with science writer and award-winning journalist Jessica Nordell about her book The End of Bias: A Beginning. It's an extraordinarily well-researched and compellingly written explanation of the science of implicit bias, covering its manifestations in many areas, including sexism, racism, policing, and more. Our conversation tackles how to understand implicit bias, as well as evidence-based methods of attempting to solve the problems it creates. Along the way, we discuss practical police reforms, the benefits of mindfulness, the difficulty of judging past actors, and recognizing the bias and judgmentalism in ourselves. It's probably one of the most important conversations we've had on the show.
The beverages we sample in the episode are Strawberry Hibiscus and SRV from Manic Meadery.
Content note: this episode contains discussion of violence and some mild profanity.
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In this episode, we reflect on the documentary from Discovery Plus, Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed. If you haven't watched the three part miniseries, it's gross, tragic, and maddening, and yet it feels like many of us in the church find a part of our story in this broken story of manipulation, abuse, and consumerism.
We talk about the fine line between being welcoming and being manipulative, how easy it is to abuse "volunteers," and how easy it is to throw anything and anybody under the bus in the name of "redeeming the world." It's scary stuff, but these are conversations we need to have in the church if we're going to have any integrity whatsoever.
We tasted Old Elk Blended Straight Bourbon Whiskey from Old Elk Distillery, who are doing some pretty cool things.
Content note: this episode contains mild profanity.
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We speak with philosopher Scott Coley about the phenomenon of pastors and internet theobrogians publicly critiquing the work of credentialed scholars. Why is this so popular, how are those that do it so confident, and how are normal people fooled by it? As Scott asks in an article, "What conditions make it possible for otherwise reasonable people to believe that the carefully considered arguments of accomplished scholars are vulnerable to obvious and devastating objections raised by non-experts?" That article, published on his blog, made us want to speak with him, and the conversation evolved from there. We discuss expertise, misinformation, intellectual ghettoization, ideology, propaganda, truth, logical positivism, cults and psychopaths, and more. Scott names some names and pulls no punches.
The bourbon featured in this episode is Eagle Rare from Buffalo Trace Distillery.
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We've been excited to talk to a Jewish scholar for some time now...and not just for the obvious episode title opportunity, either. For those of us who consider ourselves Christians, to understand Judaism is to understand the roots of our faith tradition.
In this episode, we interview Rabbi Or Rose from Hebrew College in Boston, MA. Rabbi Rose specializes in inter-religious studies and takes us into the world of inter-religious dialogue, the value of it, along with ancient Jewish practices of arguing and debating the Scriptures, and seeing that practice as holy. This is a fascinating episode. We hope you enjoy this conversation as much as we did.
We drank The Prisoner Wine Co. Finish II by Bardstown Bourbon Company. It's phenomenal.
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)
There's a little secret pretty much every pastor has that they can't share with their congregation. Well, actually, a number of secrets. We're not talking about dark and hidden sins (hopefully, at least). We're talking about things your pastor believes or thinks that they don't feel safe enough to share with your church. Pretty much all pastors have beliefs and opinions that they feel passionate about, but if they said them publicly, they'd worry about losing their jobs, or losing a major part of their church. So, they hold these beliefs and opinions in and pretend.
We reached out to a bunch of Evangelical-ish pastors and asked them what they wish they could share with their congregations, but can't. In this episode, we share (anonymously) how these pastors responded. The responses are both fascinating and saddening. We need to do better.
The bourbon we sampled is Smoke Wagon Uncut Unfiltered Bourbon by Nevada H&C Distilling Co.
Content note: this episode contains profanity.
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)
In the conclusion of our four-part series on LGBTQ people and the church, we speak with Drs. Dawne Moon, a sociologist, and Theresa Tobin, a philosopher, who research and write collaboratively about the experiences of LGBTQ Christians in non-affirming church spaces. This conversation is frank, profound, heartbreaking, and, somehow, funny. We discuss their concept of "sacramental shame" and how it's used against LGBTQ people, what binary gender has to do with sexuality, the origin of gender complementarianism, whether it makes sense to be egalitarian but non-affirming, the importance of relationship for identifying love, how love and pride are related, and more.
You can find some of Dawne and Theresa's work together at these links:
- Relationship, Humility, Justice
- Alpha, Omega, and the Letters in Between: LGBTQI Conservative Christians Undoing Gender
- Sunsets and Solidarity: Overcoming Sacramental Shame in Conservative Christian Churches to Forge a Queer Vision of Love and Justice
- The Politics of Shame in the Motivation to Virtue: Lessons from the Shame, Pride, and Humility Experiences of LGBT Conservative Christians and Their Allies
The whiskey we tasted in this episode is Oppidan Four Grain Straight Bourbon.
Content note: this episode contains discussion of clergy sexual abuse and spiritual violence.
Production note: we unfortunately had some equipment malfunction in this interview and so had to rely on audio from Zoom for our guests, which is why their audio quality is not up to our usual standards. Apologies.
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)
We return for part two of our interview with Bridget Eileen Rivera, the author of Heavy Burdens: Seven Ways LGBTQ Christians Experience Harm in the Church. In the conclusion, we discuss the common claim that the Bible is "clear" when it comes to LGBTQ issues, when (and why) the word "homosexual" was added to the Bible, what the Greek actually does and doesn't say, how sex was understood in the Roman world, trans issues and where the idea of binary gender categories comes from, whether Christians who reject their LGBTQ friends and family are bad people, and what pastors can practically do to implement change in their churches. As good as we think this content is, the book is packed with more than we could get to, so do yourself a favor and buy it.
The bourbon we taste in this episode is the Fusion Series from Bardstown Bourbon Company.
Content note: this episode contains discussion of rape and some mild profanity.
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)
Bridget Eileen Rivera wrote one of the most important books we've read. Period.
The book is Heavy Burdens: Seven Ways LGBTQ Christians Experience Harm in the Church, and it's a doozy. We had so much important stuff to talk about that we made this episode a two parter. We chat about the awful stories of trauma and abuse that Queer Christians experience on a regular basis in the church, how the Protestant Reformation changed everything about the way the church saw sex, and the many double standards the church embraces towards all things LGBTQ related.
We tasted a spectacular Irish Whiskey called Blue Spot by Spot Whiskeys.
Content note: this episode contains discussion of suicide, abuse, and sex.
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)
Finally, we talk about sexuality, the queer community, and why we're affirming.
This is a very personal episode (as much as it can be for a couple of straight white dudes). In this episode, we chat about where we came from, where we are now, and how we got there. Within that conversation, we touch on the Bible, philosophy, science, reason, the beauty in the LGBTQ community, and much more.
This episode begins a four episode mini-series on human sexuality and LGBTQ issues.
The beer we tasted in this episode is Abraxas by Perennial Artisan Ales.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity and discussion of suicide and abuse.
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)
This one's fun. Thi Nguyen is a philosopher from the University of Utah and studies epistemology and philosophy of art, community, and games. He also used to be a food critic and enjoys great whiskey. A man after our own hearts.
In this episode, we'll talk about things like the seduction of clarity, moral outrage porn, epistemic bubbles, echo chambers, expertise, and our gamified world. Seriously fascinating stuff. You can find Thi's work at his website: https://objectionable.net/. His recent book, Games: Agency As Art, won the 2021 APA Book Prize.
In our tasting, we enjoyed the limited release Cabin Strength Bourbon from Central Standard Distillery available exclusively at Story Hill BKC in Milwaukee.
Content note: this episode contains profanity.
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)
Buckle up for this one, friends, because Dominique DuBois Gilliard brings straight fire. Dominique's book is, "Subversive Witness: Scripture's Call to Leverage Privilege", and it's a good one. In this episode, we talk about using privilege on behalf of the marginalized, giving power away, what it's like to be Black in America (and in the Church in America) and many more topics. Make sure to share this on the socials...everyone needs to sit in this with us.
The podcast with Willie Jennings that Dominique recommends in the episode is "My Anger, God's Righteous Indignation."
The beer we tasted in this episode is Evil Julius from Treehouse Brewing Company. It's delightful.
Content Note: This episode contains discussion or mention of racialized violence and intimidation, rape, and profanity.
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)
For New Year's, we're revisiting an episode from early in Season 1. We spoke with professional counselor and former pastor Jenny Heckman (MS, LPC, NCC) about dealing with anxiety and staying mentally healthy during the pandemic. We think her insights here are important and every bit as relevant as they were last year.
We'll be back on our regular schedule with new content on January 12.
The beer featured in this episode is Strawberry Rhubarb Wild Fruit Ale by New Glarus Brewing Company.
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)
Shane Claiborne...what a gem. Shane has written a number of incredible books including The Irresistible Revolution and Jesus for President, and we got the opportunity to chat with him about a whole bunch of things. The cult (and possible heresy) of Christian nationalism, trying to embody the Sermon on the Mount as an American, the death penalty, and a number of other things. Shane is a delight and has such a knack for centering every topic of every conversation back to Jesus.
The beer we drank on this episode was Bell's Brewery Imperial Rye Barrel Aged Ale supplied by the wonderful people at Story Hill BKC.
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Where does real theology and spirituality happen? Should we continue looking to the academy and pulpits or might we find a more embodied and lived theology and spirituality in the kitchens and homes of marginalized women? Kat Armas calls us and our theology to the marginalized and colonized women in her book Abuelita Faith. It's a powerful book that is delightfully decentering and challenges our theology and spirituality that has been formed by people in power. She draws us to the forgotten and overlooked people in the Bible, letting them teach us and form our faith.
The whiskey we tasted in this episode is Whistle Pig's 10 Year Rye Whiskey.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity.
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Aaron Niequist has been to the top of the evangelical mountain and has experienced first hand the goodness and the toxicity and the pain that is often a byproduct of that world. He's come out of the belly of the evangelical beast without the bitterness and cynicism that many of us fall victim to. He doesn't want to label himself an Ex-vangelical. He's dreaming of living in and creating spiritual places and practices that are a convergence of the best of a number of Christian traditions, and it's beautiful. Check out his 2018 book The Eternal Current.
In this episode, we tasted Eagle Park Brewing's BOTM's Up and Big BOTM's. They're delicious.
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We cover a lot of ground in this one folks. You may know Frank Schaeffer as the son of famed evangelical author Francis Schaeffer, but since helping his father found the religious right in America (we're not kidding), Frank has had a dramatic personal transformation and a fascinating career. We talk with him about his new book Fall in Love, Have Children, Stay Put, Save the Planet, Be Happy. The conversation covers Frank's role in abortion becoming the cause célèbre of the American evangelical establishment, his relationship with his parents and other famous evangelical leaders of recent decades, what a family values agenda would actually look like, how corporate tech culture is killing people's ability to be happy, and how understanding human evolution can help. Frank is raw, honest, and deliciously brash. He's also got a potty mouth, so be advised if you're listening with children.
Frank's own podcast, In Conversation... with Frank Schaeffer, can be found here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/in-conversation-with-frank-schaeffer/id1570357787
The beer we taste in this episode is Terror Dome from Saint Errant Brewing.
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Danté Stewart's book Shoutin' in the Fire: An American Epistle is one of the most stirring and powerfully written that we've encountered on the podcast. This conversation with him is comparable. He's engaging, funny, and erudite all at once, and he has critical things to teach the white church if we'll listen. He's also super well-read, and he wants you to be too. Here are the five authors/books he mentions in the episode:
- Robert Jones Jr. (The Prophets)
- Deesha Philyaw (The Secret Lives of Church Ladies)
- Kiese Laymon (Heavy)
- Jason Reynolds (Look Both Ways)
- Jesmyn Ward (Sing, Unburied, Sing)
This is one of those interviews that was so rich we had to trim it down significantly for time. If you want to hear the extra content that didn't make it into the episode--including a deep dive into the philosophy of Frantz Fanon, some reflections on the interview from Kyle and Randy, and more--subscribe to our Patreon (link below)!
The whisky we tasted in this episode is Glenmorangie Quinta Ruban.
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Heavy. Weighty. Decentering.
In this episode we discuss the afterlife. What happens when we die? Kyle takes us on a journey through historic philosophical thinking about afterlife and why we just don't know what happens when we die. Randy mixes in some pastoral and spiritual insights here and some possible heresy there...delicious.
Content Warning: If the idea of the possibility of there being no life after death is too disturbing at this moment to consider, please don't listen to this episode. We've got lots of other episodes for you to catch up on.
The whiskey we tasted in this episode is Ezra Brooks 99 by Lux Row Distillers.
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This is a fun one, friends.
In this episode, we chat with Sameer and Sharad Yadav - identical twin brothers who are a pastor and a philosopher. No, really.
Sameer is a theologian and a philosopher who teaches religious studies at Westmont College in Santa Barbara, CA, and Sharad is Lead Pastor of Bread and Wine, a church in Portland, OR. We chatted about so much - theology, philosophy, the current reality and future of the church, mysticism, wonder, mystery, and apophatic spirituality, just to name a few. Also, we laughed. A lot. These guys are a snarky, irreverent riot.
We tasted the incredible Elliot mead from Manic Meadery in Crown Point, IN. It's joy in a cup.
Content note: this episode contains some strong language that may not be suitable for children.
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CONTENT NOTE: This episode contains discussion of sexual harassment and abuse.
We interview author and podcaster Tiffany Bluhm about the depressing trend in the American church and the broader culture of ignoring, disbelieving, and actively silencing women who are sexually harassed or abused, often by church leaders themselves and often to protect institutions with oppressive cultures. Her book Prey Tell is a timely and important analysis of the sinister ways this trend is caused and perpetuated within the church and what we can do about it. If you've read and enjoyed the other recent books in the "Christian Thanos Gauntlet," you won't want to miss this one.
The beer featured in the episode is 2020 Black Gold from Central Waters Brewery. The whiskey we were drinking during the interview (not featured) is Evan Williams Kentucky Straight Bourbon. The Milwaukee sushi restaurant Tiffany mentions is (probably) Spicy Tuna. Special thanks to Story Hill BKC for their support.
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Randy and Kyle talk with Duke Kwon and Gregory Thompson about their recent book Reparations: A Christian Call for Repentance and Repair, in which they grapple with the church's responsibility to repair the great damage done to African Americans by the history--and ongoing reality--of racism in the United States. Duke and Greg are forceful and eloquent and refreshingly hopeful. It's an important conversation that will hopefully spawn many others.
The letter discussed at the beginning of the episode can be found here: https://www.facinghistory.org/reconstruction-era/letter-jourdon-anderson-freedman-writes-former-master.
The whiskey featured in this episode is Traverse City Straight Bourbon.
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Kyle and Randy discuss faith, reason, existentialism, and what it means to be a Christian with a little help from 19th century philosopher Soren Kierkegaard. We touch on all sorts of fun things, like why being American has nothing to do with being Christian, why being religious isn't the same thing as being Christian, why approaching faith with your brain first is probably not Christian either, and much more. There's something here to offend everyone, we promise.
The beer we sample in this episode is Pilsner Urquell. The book Kyle recommends at the end is The Essential Kierkegaard. For more on Kyle's thoughts on the relation between faith and belief, see here.
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We got to talk about the Bible with Pete Enns. This podcast thing can be a pretty good gig.
Pete is a biblical scholar, Old Testament teacher and expert, a host of The Bible for Normal People podcast, and (unfortunately) a Yankees fan.
We talk about what it means that the Bible is inspired, what it means that the Scriptures are authoritative, contradictions within the Bible, the universal work of the Spirit, and other light and easy topics.
The whiskey we tasted is Woodford Reserve's Wheat Whiskey. Get it in liquor stores everywhere.
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In this special episode, we give Beth Allison Barr the floor.
Beth wanted to have a conversation with Scot McKnight about Biblical translations, how they come together, and how bias and agendas influence certain translations more than others (we're looking at you, ESV). We interviewed Beth in April about her brilliant book The Making of Biblical Womanhood. Beth has said numerous times that of all the questions about her book that she gets, most are about this topic.
Enjoy this brilliant conversation between two scholars who happen to also be incredibly fun. And check out the companion blog post here: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxiousbench/2021/07/what-evangelicals-just-dont-know-about-bible-translations/
In this episode, we sampled Blade and Bow Whiskey made by the Stitzel Weller Distillery.
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In this episode, we chat with C. Baxter Kruger, a delightful Trinitarian theologian from Mississippi. Baxter is the perfect mixture of southern grandpa, scotch aficionado, lover of Jesus, and brilliant theologian. Baxter has written a number of books, many essays, and hosts classes and spaces about the nature and wonder of the Incarnation and our mysterious inclusion into the life of the Trinity. Baxter regularly collaborates with former guests such as Brad Jersak and William Paul Young.
The whisky we taste in this episode is the Three Wood Single Malt Scotch Whisky by Auchentoshan.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity (but he's basically quoting the Bible, so it's fine).
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Who doesn't like a good conversation about the end of the world/end times/rapture/dispensationalism? We sure do...over a good scotch.
In this episode, we tackle eschatology and end times theology and all the good, bad and ugly of it. Should we be afraid of the future, or hopeful? Is the planet earth going to burn up, or is this all headed somewhere good? What have people thought throughout church history, and why does this all matter?
Oh, and we can't leave out Kirk Cameron and Nic Cage. Shout out to the homies.
The whisky we taste in this episode is the Lagavulin 11 Year Nick Offerman Guinness Cask Finish from the amazing Lagavulin Distillery.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity.
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What does it mean to be "saved"? We talk with Megan Westra about her book Born Again and Again, which offers a compelling reframing of the typical white American evangelical concept of salvation. We touch on everything from the role of racism in how churches present this concept, to her experience growing up as a southern fundamentalist, to the importance of dialogue with people who disagree, to financial stewardship, and more. It's a rich conversation.
The books Megan mentions are Religious Resistance to Neoliberalism: Womanist and Black Feminist Perspectives by Keri Day and After Whiteness: An Education in Belonging by Willie Jennings.
The beer featured in this episode is Shelter in Case by 1840 Brewing Company.
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In this episode, we talk with Dr. Shaun Blanchard. Shaun is a Catholic scholar and our conversation ranges from clerical celibacy, ordaining women, the LGBTQ community and Catholicism, abuse scandals, papal authority, and how Catholic and Protestant Christians can understand and love one another well. It's a fun one. You can find some of Shaun's work here.
We sampled Noteworthy Sherry Stave Aged Bourbon from the good people at Noteworthy Spirits. Thanks to our friends at Story Hill BKC.
The photo for this episode (taken by Kyle) is from under the dome in the St. Josaphat Basilica in Milwaukee.
CONTENT NOTE: This episode contains discussion of clergy sexual abuse and some mild profanity.
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Dr. Nicholas Oschman joins us for a free-flowing and almost totally unscripted conversation about certainty, deception, whether religious people really believe what they say, orthodoxy, cynicism, charismatic experience, Islamic philosophy, and more. The conversation is raw, honest, and iconoclastic, but also gentle, humble, and hilarious. Whoever you are, we guarantee there's something to challenge you here.
The whiskey featured in this episode is Jameson Caskmates Stout Edition.
If you're local to Milwaukee, check out our friends at Story Hill BKC.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity.
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)
Does the idea, or the very phrase, "Biblical Womanhood" make you shudder a bit? Us too.
In this episode, we interviewed Beth Allison Barr about her book The Making of Biblical Womanhood. Beth is a Historian at Baylor University, and her book makes a brilliant case that the idea of "Biblical Womanhood" is more of a product of the patriarchal world that the Bible was written in than it is a product of the Bible itself, much less God. Dr. Barr shares from her perspective as a historian, and as a woman who's been marginalized by the church herself in painful ways.
This is an important book that needs to be featured in the Church as we journey towards equality and the empowerment of women.
The scotch we sample in this episode is Oban Distillers Edition. It's a delightful treat.
As usual, if you share us on social media and/or leave a review, we'll love you forever.
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In this episode, Kyle and Randy geek out a little bit about truth.
Truth is a tricky term these days, with everyone believing their own "facts" or having their own truths and alternative facts. How does a philosopher see and pursue truth? What is a healthy pastoral way to approach and pursue truth? Is there such a thing as truth at all, let alone absolute truth, as so many Christians attest to?
Our resident pastor and philosopher dive in and bring us into a really fun and healthy conversation about truth that our society would do well to engage in.
The whiskey we sample in this episode is Four Roses Small Batch Select from the always stellar Four Roses Bourbon.
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In this episode, we chat with the one and only Brian McLaren. Brian has given his adult life to the Church in many ways and has created space for followers of Christ who feel like they exist on the margins of faith and Christianity. Brian has written many influential and important books, and in this episode we chat about his newest book: Faith After Doubt. This is a beautiful and brilliant book that will give you all sorts of space and permission to let your doubts come into the light and let them mature and grow your faith (even if that sounds really crazy right now). This was a truly delightful conversation that we're excited to share with you.
Brian speaks to a number of different prayers, books, and resources in the episode. Here are all the things that were mentioned during the conversation:
Bishop Nikolai Velimirovic: Prayer Regarding Critics and Enemies
Miguel de Unamuno: San Manuel Bueno, Martir
Mary Doria Russell: The Sparrow
Barbara Kingsolver: The Poisonwood Bible
John Westerhoff: WIll Our Children Have Faith?
The two whiskeys featured in this episode are Snake River Stampede Small Batch and their 100th Anniversary Limited Release from Snake River Stampede Ale and Whiskey.
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)
In this episode, we speak with Dr. Cheryl Bridges Johns about what it means (and what it's like) to be a feminist Pentecostal, the interplay between reason and mystery, the relationship between virtue and spiritual formation, hermeneutics and ontology, the divine feminine, and even the gift of menopause. It's a rich conversation, and Cheryl's is an important voice within progressive Christianity.
Check out some of Cheryl's work mentioned in the episode:
- Seven Transforming Gifts of Menopause
- "Grieving, Brooding, and Transforming: The Spirit, the Bible, and Gender"
Also look out for her book Re-Enchanting the Text: The Bible for a New Generation.
The beverage featured in this episode is Michter's US1 Unblended American Whiskey. Thanks to our friends at Story Hill BKC.
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)
In this episode, we chat with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer about their new book that's making waves called A Church Called Tov. This book is extremely important and is a prophetic call to the Church to form a goodness culture that resists abuses of power and promotes healing. We chat about recent scandals of abuse and coverup in the modern church, why we've created toxic church cultures and how we can move toward more beautiful cultures of goodness (Tov) in our churches.
Also, we get some dirt on Scot from Laura about some fun and mildly embarrassing stories from growing up with a biblical scholar. Fun times!
The whiskey featured in this episode is Belle Meade Bourbon from Green Brier Distillery in Nashville, TN.
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In this bonus episode, we share an Ash Wednesday gift with you. Mark Werner is Randy's Spiritual Director, and is well acquainted with contemplative spirituality and is a bit of an expert in the ways of the Enneagram. In this episode, Mark shares about his "dark night of the soul" and having a faith crisis while in pastoral ministry, and the more ancient practices that brought him into a more spacious and centered faith journey.
Also, we finish our time together by having Mark lead us in some contemplative and centering prayer. You're welcome.
The beer featured in this episode is the Tropical Slush by the always fantastic Eagle Park Brewing Company.
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)
Ever had an issue with violence in the Bible? How about the many inconsistencies in the Scriptures? What about the rampant patriarchy, sexism, and misogyny? There are all sorts of issues and problems within Christianity's sacred text, but does that mean that we have to choose between believing that everything is prescriptive and inspired, or walking away from the Bible altogether?
In this episode, we offer a different and more nuanced way of approaching and engaging with the Bible.
The beverage featured in this episode is Wollersheim's Press House Brandy.
If you're local to Milwaukee, check out our friends at Story Hill BKC.
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)
What is the Bible? How should we read it? What does it mean for a text to be authoritative? Do I have to believe the Bible is inerrant in order to be a Christian? In this episode, we discuss the beautiful messiness that is the Bible and talk about our relationships with this incredible and ancient text.
The whiskey featured in this episode is Wathen's Single Barrel.
If you're local to Milwaukee, check out our friends at Story Hill BKC.
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)
In this episode, we chat with Kristin Kobes Du Mez about her book that's been making waves and is brilliantly titled Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation. This book is probably our favorite of 2020 and is a must-read. During the course of this interview, we chat about everything from toxic masculinity and power hungry religious leaders to Amy Grant and Tiffany. Seriously.
The whiskey featured in this episode is Weller Special Reserve bourbon from the fantastic Buffalo Trace Distillery.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity.
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In this episode, we chat with Brian Zahnd about his journey from a militaristic, warmongering brand of Christianity to a more peace-loving, Jesus-centered way. Along the way, we touch on everything from his take on the current state of the American church, the Christian's role in the state, the book of Revelation, his favorite philosophers, Christian ethics, the Bible, and Bob Dylan.
The whiskey featured in this episode is a special store pick single barrel select edition of Buffalo Trace bourbon from our friends at Story Hill BKC. The scotch Brian mentions is Ardbeg Corryvreckan.
AUDIO NOTE: Brian's and Kyle's audio are not quite up to our usual smooth production standard in this episode, because some recording equipment was lost in the mail. Thanks USPS!
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Did humans come from monkeys? How old is the earth? Should we interpret the Bible literally? Does any of it matter? In this episode, we discuss creationism and evolution, a recurring topic at Randy and Kyle's church Q&A's.
The whiskey featured in this episode is Driftless Glen bourbon.
If you're local to Milwaukee, check out our friends at Story Hill BKC.
The books and resources for further reading that we recommend at the end of the episode are:
- The Greatest Show on Earth - Richard Dawkins
- The Evolution of Adam - Peter Enns
- Biologos.org
- The Lost World of Genesis One - John Walton
- The Lost World of Adam and Eve - John Walton
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CONTENT NOTE: This episode contains references to trauma, abuse, suicide, and mental illness. Not recommended for children.
On this episode, we're joined by William Paul Young (author of The Shack and Eve) and Brad Jersak (author of A More Christlike God and Her Gates Will Never Be Shut). We discuss their new co-authored novella, The Pastor: A Crisis, a raw story of a fundamentalist pastor undergoing the judgment of God. But our conversation is much more wide-ranging than just the book. We discuss what it means to say that God is love, the nature of forgiveness, the metaphor of Hell, and more.
The whiskey featured in this episode is Basil Hayden's Dark Rye. Thanks to Story Hill BKC!
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How does Jesus's death work? In this episode, Randy, Kyle, and Elliot discuss atonement, the theological issue of how Jesus saves humans. It's a deep dive, and a bit nerdy, but we think it's important.
The whiskey featured in this episode is Bulleit Rye.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity (in the closing bloopers).
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In this episode we talk with Lisa Koons, who is the national director of 24-7 Prayer USA. Our conversation covers the role of prayer in social justice, why more American Christians aren't focused on racial justice, how anger fits into the Christian response to injustice, and more. Lisa has a powerful, healing presence, and we encourage you to meditate on her words here.
The beer featured in this episode is La Ruche (Blend #3) by Side Project Brewing.
If you're local to Milwaukee, check out our friends at Story Hill BKC.
The artwork for this episode is "Finger of Steel" by Mathieu Cesar. The video mentioned is "How Can We Win" by Kimberly Jones (contains explicit language).
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In this episode we tackle the good, the bad, and the ugly of American evangelicalism. This conversation represents the culmination of something Kyle and Randy have been discussing for a while, and something that comes up a lot when they do live church Q&A's. Is "evangelicalism" salvageable? Listen to find out.
The bourbon featured in this episode is Willett Pot Still Reserve.
If you're local to Milwaukee, check out our friends at Story Hill BKC.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity.
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In this episode we talk with Jim Vining, a professor of communication and rhetoric, about the state of our current political and religious discourse in the United States.
The bourbon featured in this episode is Maker's Mark Cask Strength.
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In this episode Randy, Kyle, and Elliot tackle the thorny issues of patriotism, nationalism, and their relationship to the American Christian church. They don't pull any punches.
The bourbon featured in this episode is Stagg Jr. by Buffalo Trace Distillery.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity (in the context of quoting the President of the United States).
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In this episode, we interview Jared Byas, author and co-host of the hit podcast The Bible for Normal People. We discuss his new book Love Matters More, available now wherever books are sold. It's a lively discussion about love and truth, and how those concepts are often abused by religious people under the guise of "telling the truth in love."
The beer featured in this episode is from Central Waters Brewing Company.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity.
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In this episode Randy and Kyle discuss disagreement, a current topic if there ever was one. Kyle did his PhD dissertation on the epistemology of disagreement, and this conversation explores what it is, some common pitfalls, how to do it better, and what it looks like for Christians in particular. For more of Kyle's thoughts on this, see here.
The beer featured in this episode is King Sue by Toppling Goliath Brewing Company.
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In this episode, we interview Jenny Heckman (MS, LPC, NCC) about dealing with anxiety and staying mentally healthy during the pandemic. Jenny is a licensed professional counselor and a former pastor, and we think her insights here are important and timely.
The beer featured in this episode is Strawberry Rhubarb Wild Fruit Ale by New Glarus Brewing Company.
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In this episode, Randy, Kyle, and Elliot discuss American Christian fundamentalism and why they have, to borrow a phrase, kissed it goodbye.
The whiskey featured in this episode is Woodford Reserve Straight Bourbon.
AUDIO NOTE: There is some slight distortion and static at various places in this episode. We have since fixed these problems for all upcoming episodes. Socially distanced recording is hard.
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In this episode, Randy and Kyle introduce themselves primarily by describing why they are still Christians, despite periods of "deconstruction" in their lives.
Beer featured in this episode: Brambleberry Puree by Eagle Park Brewing
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New podcast on philosophy, theology, and spirituality. Launching July 2020.
Who:
Randy Knie, Pastor
Kyle Whitaker, Philosopher
Elliot Lund, Producer
https://pastorandphilosopher.buzzsprout.com/
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