Atmospheric Tales: Recent Episodes

Shahzad Gani

A podcast that amplifies stories and experiences related to air pollution and climate change from around the world.

In this episode, we discuss:

The role of (North African) youth in climate change mitigation and adaptation
Intersections of climate change, health and mental health
Building resilience from the grassroots level to the global level; planetary resilience
Introducing vulnerability and care in climate change discussions

Guest | Dr. Saad Uakkas

Dr Saad Uakkas is an expert in youth and organisational empowerment and engagement in climate and health. He holds a Master’s degree in public health from the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine (LSHTM), with a Chevening scholarship. With over 9 years of experience in leadership positions across global youth NGOs and networks, such as the International Federation of Medical Students’ Associations, the World Healthcare Students’ Alliance, and the African Youth Initiative for Climate Change (AYICC), he is an expert in events organisation, project management, organisational development, partnerships and fundraising, advocacy, and youth leadership. He is also a TEDx speaker, a Diana awardee, a One Young World Ambassador, a Gates Foundation Goalkeeper, and a Global Shaper. He has organised 10 global campaigns, and led over 30 global events and conferences, including the COP27 and COP28 Children and Youth Pavilions. He is currently the AYICC Executive Chair, leading youth climate engagement across Africa.

Interviewer | Dr. Rosa Rantanen

Dr Rosa Rantanen is the founder of the Safer Climate network (Initiative for a Safer Climate), that brings together research, civil society and the arts. She currently works as a Research Coordinator at the Institute for Atmospheric and Earth System Research at the University of Helsinki, Finland. She wrote her Doctoral thesis on the ethical desirability of human life extension, at the University of Turku, in Finland as well. Rantanen has also worked on various interdisciplinary projects across several civil society organizations, including the Finnish Red Cross. Currently, she specialises in working not only on civil society engagement, but also themes such as climate security, climate and death, and war and its effects on climate and the environment. Her work is part of the Atmosphere and Climate Competence Center (ACCC) program.

Episode notes and references:

COP28 UAE Declaration on climate and health
Climate anxiety in children and young people and their beliefs about government responses to climate change
Does Africa have a voice on climate?

Music by: Ritesh Prasanna

Podcast website:https://atmospherictales.com

Transcript: https://atmospherictales.medium.com/watering-our-community-youth-health-and-climate-resilience-f6b64d100c14

In this episode, we discuss:

Interconnectedness of Air Pollution and Climate Change
Health and Environmental Impacts
African Integrated Assessment
Role of African Scientists
Future of Atmospheric Sciences in Africa

Guest | Prof. Rebecca Garland

Our guest, Prof. Rebecca Garland, is a seasoned expert in atmospheric sciences, specialising in air quality and climate change, with a strong focus on science-policy linkages. Her research endeavours are dedicated to improving the understanding of air quality and atmospheric science in southern Africa, through the integration of multiple data streams; this includes developing emissions inventories, conducting air quality modelling, utilising ground-based and remote sensing measurements, formulating evidence-based air quality management strategies, and exploring the connections between air quality and climate change at regional and urban scales. Dr Garland has held a significant role as a Principal Researcher at the Climate and Air Quality Modeling Group within the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) in South Africa. She obtained her PhD from the University of Colorado, Boulder, concentrating on atmospheric science with a specific focus on aerosol particles. Additionally, she served as a postdoctoral fellow at the Max Planck Institute for Chemistry in Mainz, Germany, and as an AAAS Science and Technology Policy Fellow at the U.S. Department of Energy’s Office for Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy.

Interviewer | Cynthia Sitati

Our interviewer, Cynthia Sitati is a Research Associate at the Stockholm Environment Institute (SEI), Africa Centre. She holds an MSc in Climate Change Adaptation from the University of Nairobi and is currently pursuing a PhD at the same institution, where she wants to explore the intricate relationship between air pollution and greenhouse gas emissions by leveraging advanced technologies and synthesising data from diverse sources. At the Stockholm Environment Institute, Cynthia works under the Sustainable Urbanization Programme, supporting projects on air pollution, climate change, and urban development. Her goal is to use research to inform policy, help humanity fight Air Pollution and climate change in her capacity as a researcher, and make a significant contribution towards the achievement of the Sustainable Development Goals in Sub-Saharan Africa.

Episode notes and references:

Integrated Assessment of Air Pollution and Climate Change for Sustainable Development in Africa
Opinion: Strengthening research in the Global South – atmospheric science opportunities in South America and Africa

Music by: Ritesh Prasanna

Podcast website:https://atmospherictales.com

Transcript: https://atmospherictales.medium.com/exploring-the-nexus-of-air-pollution-and-climate-change-in-africa-af6e390ef5eb

In this episode, we discuss:

Critique of mainstream climate discourse
Role of Indigenous knowledges
Reimagining climate governance
Positionality and ethical research

Guest | Dr Ritodhi Chakraborty

Our guest, Dr Ritodhi Chakraborty, is a political ecologist and interdisciplinary social scientist who collaborates with indigenous and agrarian communities to explore pathways of environmental and social justice. For the past 15 years, he has worked with various universities, think-tanks, public and civil society institutions in United States, India, Bhutan, China and Aotearoa/New Zealand on issues of plural knowledges, environmental and social justice, rural transformation, youth subjectivities, climate change and agriculture.

Interviewer | Uma Pal

Our interviewer, Uma Pal, is a Senior Analyst at the Climate Policy Initiative, India. Her work focuses on adaptation, resilience and sustainable finance. With over 8 years of experience in the climate and development space, her expertise lies in climate change policy and institutional analysis, physical climate risk assessments and mainstreaming climate risk in plans, policies, and actions of governments and the private sector. Uma holds a Master’s degree in Climate Change and Sustainability Studies from the Tata Institute of Social Sciences, India, and a Bachelor’s degree in Literature from Lady Shri Ram College, Delhi University.

Episode notes and references:

Climate adaptation projects sometimes exacerbate the problems they try to solve — a new tool hopes to correct that
Mountains of inequality: encountering the politics of climate adaptation across the Himalaya
From climate adaptation to climate justice: Critical reflections on the IPCC and Himalayan climate knowledges

Music by: Ritesh Prasanna

Podcast website:https://atmospherictales.com

Transcript: https://atmospherictales.medium.com/decolonizing-climate-discourse-embracing-plurality-in-knowledges-676e6e6b681a

In this episode, we discuss:

An overview of air pollution in Mongolia
The slow violence of environment crises
Utilizing technologies for solving environmental challenges
International collaboration and advocacy

Guest | Azjargal Tsogtsaikhan

Our guest, Azjargal Tsogtsaikhan, leads Business Development at ORDA Wealth Tech from Silicon Valley, California, USA. Azjargal is also passionate about solving public health, sustainability, and social problems, and has founded Breathe Mongolia – Clean Air Coalition, a non-profit with a mission to eradicate air pollution in Mongolia. She holds a BA in Finance and Marketing from the University of Technology Sydney, and an MBA from Birmingham Young University, with extensive experience in finance, nonprofit and technology sectors, including 9 years at IBM. She’s also a board member of other human rights and climate change nonprofits and a co-author of “Clean Air Adventures” children’s book.

Interviewer | Gereltuya Bayanmunkh

Our interviewer, Gereltuya Bayanmunkh, is a start-up founder pursuing an MSc in Artificial Intelligence and Data Science at St. Petersburg University, having previously earned her BSc in Mathematics from the National University of Mongolia. She specializes in using AI and big data techniques in fields requiring interdisciplinary innovation in action, such as climate tech and public health. With previous experience as a web developer and engineer, in 2020, Gereltuya founded her start-up, Green Dot Climate, to create science-backed climate change content, develop climate tech solutions, build youth-led communities and campaigns, and form partnerships to push Mongolia towards a net-zero future.

Episode notes and references:

Air Quality Monitoring and Data Access
Breathe Mongolia | Sustainability for students
Agaar Neg: Air pollution knowledge platform launched | UNICEF
Addressing Air Pollution in Ulaanbaatar and Evaluating Indoor Air Quality in Gers with Cooking, Heating, and Insulation Packages (CHIP)

Music by: Ritesh Prasanna

Podcast website: https://atmospherictales.com

Transcript: https://medium.com/@atmospherictales/innovations-against-air-pollution-in-mongolia-982ec82d2187

In this episode, we discuss:

Shift in climate change storytelling towards human impacts
Underrepresentation of Global South voices in climate science literature
Global South climate scientist database
Challenges posed by misinformation in today’s media landscape

Guest | Ayesha Tandon

Our guest, Ayesha Tandon, is a science journalist at Carbon Brief. She previously worked at the United Kingdom Met Office as a Climate Science Communicator. She holds an MSci in Natural Sciences, specialising in Climate Science, from The University of Exeter. Find her on X and LinkedIn.

Interviewer | Pallavi Pant

Our interviewer, Dr Pallavi Pant, is an air quality researcher, and has worked on issues related to air quality and health in low- and middle-income countries for nearly 15 years. She leads global initiatives at the Health Effects Institute. She holds a Ph.D. in Environmental Health from University of Birmingham, United Kingdom. Find her on X and LinkedIn.

Episode notes and references:

Analysis: The lack of diversity in climate-science research
The Global South Climate Database

Music by: Ritesh Prasanna

Podcast website: https://atmospherictales.com

Transcript: https://atmospherictales.medium.com/amplifying-global-south-voices-in-climate-communication-041ec20e7fa1

In this episode, we discuss:

Tackling deforestation and carbon emissions
Revolutionizing climate negotiations
Indigenous knowledges and water solutions
Breaking barriers for women in science

Guest | Marcia Barbosa

Prof. Marcia Barbosa is a Professor of Physics at the Federal University of Rio Grande do Sul (UFRGS), member of the Brazilian Academy of Sciences and the World Academy of Sciences. Since 2023, she has been Secretary of Strategic Policy and Programs (SEPPE) at the Brazilian Ministry of Science, Technology and Innovation (MCTI). She has been awarded several academic awards, including the Loreal-Unesco Women in Physical Sciences in 2013 for her scientific research using water anomalies under confinement and nanoscience to create new ideas for desalination and produce drinkable water. She also studies gender inequality in the academy and how equity is an instrument of efficiency.

Interviewer | Beatriz Araújo

Beatriz Azevedo de Araújo, is a climate expert, lawyer and consultant, holding a Master of Public Policy degree from the University of Oxford. She started her journey in the climate field as a researcher and activist back in 2013 when she coordinated the first Brazilian youth delegation to attend the UNFCCC COP, with the NGO Engajamundo. She then co-founded a social environmental protection NGO named Instituto Verdeluz, aimed at bridging the international climate change agenda with local issues, working alongside indigenous peoples and traditional communities. Currently, Beatriz acts as an independent consultant, developing projects with governments, businesses and civil society on subjects such as climate finance, just transitions and innovation. She also serves as the President of the Environmental Law Commission of the Bar Association of the state of Ceara and as a counselor of the State of Ceara Environmental Council.

Music by: Ritesh Prasanna

Podcast website: https://atmospherictales.com

Transcript: https://atmospherictales.medium.com/indigenous-wisdom-and-scientific-innovation-in-brazil-for-global-sustainability-94015bd45d57

In this episode we discuss the role of palm oil politics and other agricultural practices, politics, and diplomacy on transboundary haze in Southeast Asia.

In this episode we discuss ethics and morality in the context of climate change and public health including geopolitical challenges, temporal justice, indigenous voices, and ways to make an impact.

In this episode we will discuss renewable energy colonialism, impact on local communities, and the NIMBY rhetoric.

Renewable Energy Colonialism in the Global South and the Global North
Impact of renewable energy projects on local communities
The Not in my backyard (NIMBY) rhetoric

Our guest Dr Susana Batel is an assistant researcher at University Institute of Lisbon , Portugal. For over a decade her research has focused on adopting a critical approach to examine the relation between re-presentation, identities, power, discourse and communication, and social change, namely regarding public participation in environmental issues, and public responses to renewable energy and associated technologies. She has 80+ published works and is a Co-Editor of the journal Papers on Social Representations.

Our interviewer Nyasha Milanzi is an undergraduate student in Electrical and Electronics Engineering at Ashesi University, Ghana. Her research focuses on developing low cost sensors for use in air quality monitoring and dust soiling on solar PV measurements.

Episode notes and references:

Politicizing hydroelectric power plants in Portugal: spatio-temporal injustices and psychosocial impacts of renewable energy colonialism in the Global North
The role of (de-)essentialisation within siting conflicts: An interdisciplinary approach
Using NIMBY rhetoric as a political resource to negotiate responses to local energy infrastructure: a power line case study
Research on the social acceptance of renewable energy technologies: Past, present and future

Music by: Ritesh Prasanna

Audio editing and transcripts by: Paras Singh and Raag Sethi

Podcast website:https://atmospherictales.com

Transcript:

SB: Susana Batel (Guest)

NM: Nyasha Milanzi (Interviewer)

SG: Shahzad Gani (Host)

SG: Welcome to Atmospheric Tales, a podcast that amplifies stories and experiences related to air pollution and climate change from around the world.

I’m your host, Shahzad Gani, and welcome to another episode of the Atmospheric Tales. Our guest today is an Assistant Researcher at the University Institute of Lisbon in Portugal. For over a decade, her research has focused on adopting a critical approach to examine the relation between representation, identities, power, discourse and communication, and social change, namely regarding public participation in environmental issues, and public responses to renewable energy and associated technologies. She has 80+ published works and is a co-editor of the journal Papers on Social Representations. I’m excited to welcome our guest, Dr Susana Batel.

Our interviewer today is Nyasha Milanzi. She’s an undergraduate student in Electrical and Electronics Engineering at Ashesi University, Ghana. Her research focuses on developing low-cost sensors for use in air quality monitoring and dust soiling on solar PV measurements. Welcome to the show, Susana and Nyasha!

NM: Thank you for your kind introduction, Shahzad. I’m excited to dive in our discussion. The shift to less carbon-intensive and more sustainable energy systems is centred around renewable energy sources such as solar, wind, hydro, biofuels and others. According to the International Energy Agency, over 2022-2027, renewables are forecasted to grow by almost 2,400 GW equal to the entire installed solar power capacity of China today. This rapid expansion of renewables has brought us here in discussing about renewable energy colonialism with Dr Susana Batel. Welcome to the show, Dr Susana! I’m going to jump right into our first question on renewable energy colonialism in the Global South. In the Global South, renewable energy colonialism perpetuates power dynamics that prioritise the energy needs of the Global North over the energy needs of the Global South. Despite the fact that many countries in the Global South lack access to electricity (for example, 597 million Africans did not have access to electricity) and rely on harmful forms of energy, such as biomass for cooking (approximately 600,000 lives are lost each year in sub-Saharan Africa due to exposure to biomass smoke), the focus of renewable energy production in these regions is often centered around export to the Global North. This is evident in the case of green hydrogen, where the potential for energy poverty alleviation in Africa is overshadowed by the emphasis on export to the European market. For example, I quote a statement from the European Investment Bank website—“Large-scale green hydrogen generation will enable Africa to supply 25 million tons of green hydrogen to global energy markets, equivalent to 15% of current gas used in the European Union.” Dr Susana, the followers of the podcast would like to know how colonialism mechanisms are at play here, and also, how can their governments and policymakers prioritize the energy needs in their respective countries before they can look into feeding the energy-rich countries, particularly in the Global North.

SB: Thank you, Nyasha, for your question, and also Shahzad, for the introduction and the invitation, to both of you, to be here. So, that’s a very good question and actually, this focus on green hydrogen is a very relevant one. And, actually, even here, in Portugal, from where I’m speaking, we’re also having a Valdez rush into this new gold, so say, of the green hydrogen as a key solution to resolve climate change. And actually, even if we are in the Global North, but still in the south of Europe, so a peripheral region as well, that is also shaped by correlations with other Northern countries. And so actually, we’re also having exactly the same debate. And also, green hydrogen, is it green, first off—and that’s what I will get to in a minute as well—so the way it is produced, can we really say it is green, and also for whom is this national strategy being proposed and enforced? So thinking about Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa specifically, and again, also this now run for green hydrogen, a lot of issues come to play here that make us think of it as this renewable energy colonialism. So one of them is precisely even starting, as I was saying, by this notion of renewable energy colonialism, allowing us to think for whom is this being produced, as I was saying, is also the case for Portugal. So if we look at the rhetoric behind these efforts and agendas to foster the production of green hydrogen, we see that, precisely, a lot of it is with a view towards economic growth and towards exporting it to the Global North. So local regions and communities where it will be produced, and also their local resources, based on which their livelihoods depend a lot, such as water, land, agricultural land, and so on and so forth, they will be damaged and taken for this purpose, but with most of the benefits then to be exported, as you said, to other countries and other regions of the world, specifically in the Global North. So that’s already a key aspect, obviously, of what makes it renewable energy colonialism. And, what that first aspect brings to the fore as well is precisely this issue that it is being sold as green, but actually, for instance, as you also highlighted, it uses water to produce this green hydrogen. And this means, in turn, that you should be in a region to produce it, that’s very, there’s very abundant water. And if not, you’re not only probably contributed to further desertify that area, but even to, there’s also uncertainty, what will be the consequences for water resources in the area as well, out of this process for hydrogen, green hydrogen production. The other key issue that is being debated as well also related then with this renewable energy colonialism, is precisely that then for it to be green, it implies that the electricity generated to part this water and make the green hydrogen, it needs to come from renewable energy sources. And what this often implies, is then that there will have to be built large scale energy infrastructures, such as big wind farms, or solar plants, and so on and so forth, that will then feed into this green hydrogen production, which in turn these plants as well, they also have often, they also come with a lot of local impacts and impacts for communities, and if they are not deployed in a way that involves everyone and the local communities, regional communities, national communities, etc., then those harms will for sure, be even more no, so, often what happens is precisely that is that there are no benefits for the local communities, and there are only detrimental effects. So it’s often done through this top-down, technocentric and extractivist perspective and approach. And that means precisely that who benefits then from green hydrogen and all its components, so to say, is mostly the big corporations that often are financing these infrastructures, and also sometimes, the national governments that allow for it for these to happen in their territories. So, in this sense, I think that if we think about how can governments and policymakers then prioritise the energy needs of local communities and citizens in their respective countries before they look into feeding energy-rich countries is precisely by contesting this type of rationale and process that leads to the deployment of these large energy infrastructures, and feed these big agendas for green hydrogen as it is being done. So I think, precisely, what needs to be done is thinking more in a decentralised way, in a way in which thinking about how can we give electricity to everyone and to all communities, is done involving those communities and involving people and therefore thinking about, and for the country and the region where these governments and these communities are located, instead of just thinking about economic growth at a national state level, let’s say no, so that is really for the state and not for its citizens.

NM: Wow, thank you, Dr Susana, for your answer, and I think you did a great job in analysing this question. And I would just like to highlight like some of the points that you brought up, which includes like for example, we don’t talk about, let’s say, if we deploy these huge amounts of energy infrastructures, which will require abundant water with them in the case of green hydrogen, is going to lead into water scarcity in many regions in Africa; there’s already water scarcity because of climate-induced drought in recent years. So, it’s important to look at also the after-effects and also talk about asking a critical question, like who are these infrastructures built for? Are they built for the local community, or for other people, and how ethical is that? And I think it also answers our second question that we were going to ask you on the Desertec project. For our podcast listeners, I’m just going to briefly read what it’s supposed to be: the Desertec project was originally designed for wind farms and solar plants to be deployed in the North of Africa and Middle East to feed the European grid, which is an unequivocal example of the renewable energy colonialism in the Global South. So with that, I think you also talked about how this is also at play even where you are from, in Portugal, where I didn’t even think that any renewable energy colonialism could also happen in the Global North. It is important to know that renewable energy colonialism extends beyond Global North-South relationships, and also operates through power dynamics between core and periphery regions. Dr Susana, can you provide an example of renewable energy colonialism that is not specific to Global North-South relations, and how do our core-periphery power dynamics come into play in these cases?

SB: Yes. So obviously, I think this renewable energy colonialism idea departs from Global North and Global South relations, and from historical colonialism. But, I think it is also very useful then to think about, if not equal, obviously, because colonialism as it is, it has, again, a specific history and is based on specific structural power relations. But I think it’s very helpful precisely to make us think as well, if again, if not equal, but similar processes are happening also in the Global North. And what we see more and more also today and also actually historically, so already for some centuries, is this continues and even increasingly exacerbated power dynamics between urban areas and rural areas, in which basically, rural areas are seen more and more as just a place for resource provision, and to provide to urban areas no, and urban areas as the consumers. And so, it creates these core-periphery dynamics that, again, are the basis as well of renewable energy colonialism between the Global North and Global South. And what we see for instance, again in Portugal, but also in other countries in the Global North, is that that is happening also in the relation between then urban and rural territories, in which basically, as I was discussing regarding green hydrogen, and the deployment of large scale, renewable energy generation infrastructures in these more rural areas, what happens is that, now is that rural areas are almost the sacrifice zones that get all the costs and all the negative impacts of the construction of these infrastructures, and they don’t get any benefits that, they’re not involved in deciding about those projects. They do not allow them, even for local communities, even sometimes to stay in their communities and to thrive in those communities in the long term. So it’s a similar type of dynamics that happens here as well. And for instance, here in Portugal, I’ve been accompanying it regarding wind, hydropower plants and how actually, throughout the last century, this has been the case now; these large, huge really, infrastructures with a lot of impacts have been constructed and deployed in rural areas, inland territories, with a lot of impacts for the local communities. And often even what happens is that they are deployed based on discourses and rhetoric or vocal socio-economic development. And they are even sold almost as these promises and bits of development that people then aren’t attracted to, because, precisely, they want to stay in the places where they live, and they like to live, and they want to be able for future generations to also be able to stay in those territories and to thrive there. And so, people tend often even to accept these infrastructures as a sign of hope almost to towards that future. But actually, then what we see is that often, that’s it, that’s just rhetoric from the developers, from the politicians and governments that support these infrastructures, and those promises then actually tend not to materialise then. So what happens is that these infrastructures even further contribute to the desertification and depletion of these areas, in terms of local socio-economic development, and then the people that managed to stay at and live there. So in that sense, I think that this idea of renewable energy colonialism also as an analytical lens, some say, so as some glasses to look at the renewable energy transition, and which inequalities is easy to create in as well, and which types of further discrimination and injustices is it reproducing and creating anew—I think it’s very important then, both in relations between the Global North and the Global South, but also within the Global North.

And I think for that also something very important, that is important as well for the case of the green hydrogen which you were bringing to the discussion earlier, is precisely also this idea that with globalisation and the new liberal capitalist system that we live in, what contributes also to this colonialism, and these power relations is precisely these big corporations, large corporations that are often foreign to the countries where they are exploring and extracting these resources, and exploring these communities, and therefore they really don’t have their interests at heart, no? So it’s often deployment of this infrastructure, and these extractive activities in a very, well, colonialist and extractivist way, with no connection and no concerns for local communities.

NM: Okay, thank you so much. So yeah, so I think in Portugal, it is all the hydro energy that is a great example of what you’re just describing, energy colonialism in Portugal. And with that, I think I’m going to ask you a question in relation to the USA. So given the significant amount of land that will be required for wind farms to meet energy or consumption needs, how do you think we can balance the need for renewable energy with concerns around the land use and ecological impacts?

SB: Yes, so that’s a very good question. And I think that also, again, it links to the first question that we were talking about, and, and I think it’s really going forward, what we need is also a more degrowth mindset and economy and perspective, no? So I think the even when we think about, you know, the right to have access to energy, and that everyone in the world can access that, that needs to be thought about through also considering that some people in the world and specifically in the Global North, really need as well to reduce their consumption of energy and the modern way of life or as some others put it, no, this imperial mode of living that is typical of the Global North. And, if you look even at some of the Sustainable Development Goals, and some of the policies that European Union is supporting towards the green and digital transitions, actually, they don’t want to change that that imperial mode of living. So they want to just continue with business as usual and renewable energy technologies within this format, within this logic will just be, you know, continuing this economic growth model no, and that for sure, it will, again, reproduce existing inequalities, it will reproduce energy poverty. So the ones that were previously poor in different dimensions will most probably continue in being poor, because precisely the modus operandi, so to say, exactly the same as our fossil societies that are anchored and based in structural colonialism and inequalities, racism, sexism, and all of these structural, again, inequalities that are constitutive of this model of our society. So therefore, I think the problem that needs to be tackled is precisely that is to always think about these issues in conjunction. And so, thinking that, we really need this degrowth perspective to allow us as well, for moving forward with the really renewable energy transition, but in a way that is more equal to all, and that also allows for more participation and engagement of everyone in that process. And for that, we need more decentralised models for the energy transition, we need to take decisions closer to communities that will be affected by that, we need to think precisely about energy transitions that can be done more at that community and regional level, because even that’s what allows us to prevent this Global North Global South renewable energy colonialism, right? Because the problem here is often that no, that we, in the models we use nowadays, we can be producing and extracting resources and energy from certain places that are very far away from the places where they will be consumed. And so obviously, that also helps with losing the trace of the negative impact, that even for instance, getting rare earth minerals that are needed for wind farms have for local communities that are far away from where those wind farms are going to be deployed. So again, I think the key might be precisely in thinking more about renewable energy transitions through this logic of degrowth on one hand, and decentralisation and these ethics of care for everyone at a global level and at the local level, all at the same time in an integrated way.

NM: Thank you so much. Portugal is at the front of the renewable energy transition. In 2021, 5066 GWh of electricity was generated in Portugal (of which 88.5% from renewable sources and including roughly 45% generated by hydropower, mostly large-scale dams). Can you give examples of community contestations against hydropower plants in Portugal, and also some examples of health-related harm, or psychological harm, provoked by hydropower infrastructures?

SB: So, as I was saying, with some colleagues, I was doing some research on hydropower plants, projects and how they were deployed throughout the last century, and so that means throughout the dictatorship that was imposed in Portugal for several decades, and then from there through to the democratic period that we that started in 1974, and still today. And what we see is precisely that something similar in the deployment of these infrastructures, throughout these different socio-political regimes, is that they are deployed in this logic of progress and all economic growth that is characteristic of capitalism. And it is that logic that also makes it obviously, the very big differences between the socio political-regimes or individual freedoms and practical ideals and rights, but that transversal aspect of capitalism makes it precisely then, that these infrastructures are similarly deployed in a way that these regards to the impacts they have for local communities for local socio-ecological systems as well, and therefore, they create obviously, a lot of psychosocial negative impacts as well in the communities living nearby them. It was interesting, for instance, because a lot of this research to look at psychosocial impacts in the beginning of last century for instance, we had to go to archival materials to see how these psychosocial impacts were documented. And it was interesting, for instance, to see that in the 1950s, or even 1960s, for instance, these dams now were completely non-existent idea for local communities, and so local communities have thought of them as a cut now in the river, which is quite interesting to think about that that’s precisely what it is, is having like this wild river that lives in harmony with the communities, nearby them, and that is being almost cut and slaughtered in a way by these large dams. And so in a lot of this work, we’ve documented precisely that type of psychosocial impact that happens a lot, obviously, when dams have large fields, villages, and that has happened also, even in Portugal’s recent history, that entire villages had to be relocated somewhere else, because of the construction of these dams. But dams affect also other local communities that even if they don’t have to relocate, or their houses are submerged that live nearby them, though, because they really affect the local environment, and the livelihoods therefore, that are dependent on it, all the surrounding local communities. And then what we managed to do with this archival research as well, which was very important too, was precisely to also then unearth almost, no, so bring to the fore, and give voice to actually, to these contestations to these hydropower plants, that somehow also happened during the dictatorship, so many decades ago, even if obviously, in a very different way, than what they could be or how they could happen in the democratic period. But again, through these almost oral history materials, we managed to identify that there were communities and people that were against these things now, and that would like to contest the construction of these dams then, and that has continued again, from then to nowadays, not only with hydropower projects still that are presented, often in public policies, and by the Portuguese government as renewable energy. But again, more and more activists and academics have contested that notion precisely because we know nowadays of the many socio-environmental impact, negative impact that large dams can create, and so more and more, they are less considered, at least in these contexts, as renewable, as renewable energy. And, but on top of that, also, more recently, we have witnessed the same type of impact by wind farms, and more recently now by solar power plants. So now, the push in Portugal is, as I said, also for this green hydrogen idea, but that hasn’t really started yet, at least in a more material way. But also what has been happening more in the last years, is the deployment of these large huge solar plants as well, and that has also been very contested by communities precisely because, for instance, we have this case in Alentejo in the south of Portugal, where a community started to develop and implement this idea of a renewable energy community and which you, so as a community, you try to make it self-sufficient from an energy point of view, by having solar panels say, that are at the community scale, or even at the household scale, that are enough to make that community self-sufficient. And, so they picked up on this idea of renewable energy communities that is also being, trying to be fostered in Portugal and at European Union level, through specific legislation and all that. And then, soon after, they started to try and develop and implement this renewable energy community, they just heard that a huge solar plant, precisely to feed into this green hydrogen idea or it will be one of the purposes of it, at least it could be, this huge solar plant would be built also very near where this renewable energy community was trying to be developed, and obviously dismayed, this community contested that solar plant, precisely because what often local communities want is the more smaller scale decentralised options, and not these large scale infrastructures that ruin the landscape, ruin the symbolic and cultural relations that they, and attachments that they establish in those places and those landscapes, and also sometimes even farming lands and other uses of the land that are significant to the local communities, and to local livelihoods.

NM: Thank you so much, Dr Susana. So another interesting dimension to the renewable energy acceptance is the concept of NIMBY. Can you briefly talk about the concept, Not In My Backyard (NIMBY)? How are developers, policymakers, the media and active protestors using the NIMBY rhetorically, and what are the consequences?

SB: A lot of the research that I’ve done has been precisely looking at how this NIMBY idea, no, is used by developers and politicians, the media as well sometimes, to basically accuse these local communities that oppose these infrastructures, of being just irrational and ignorant, and selfish. So it’s a way for them to delegitimize that opposition by saying, well, you’re only opposing that solar plant, for instance, or that hydropower plant, because you are a NIMBY now, because you are being selfish, because you live next to it. Now, if it was being built somewhere else, you wouldn’t care about it. And actually, what research has been showing more and more is that NIMBY doesn’t stand out, no, as an explanatory framework. So say, for local opposition, for local communities’ opposition to this renewable energy infrastructures, it actually doesn’t fit, no; it’s not it’s not a good explanation, precisely because what research has shown more and more is that what is at stake, is the fact that these processes are made in a very top-down, imposing and even dictatorial way, so to say, so they are not up for discussion, they don’t involve conveniently the local communities and all the other stakeholders that will be affected by these projects. As we’ve already discussed, a little bit here also, what happens is that even when there are some public consultation processes, those are very tokenistic. So they actually, you know, might then involve some slight little changes in the project, but not, for instance, a real discussion about if a project should go ahead or not, in that specific location, or somewhere else, and so on and so forth. And so in this way, that people in local communities, obviously they feel powerlessness, and they feel disempowered, even from, deciding about their own life, no, their own communities, sometimes even in the case of the submersion of villages from hydropower plants, as we’ve seen, even they lose the control and the autonomy of their own houses and households. So obviously, it’s all these dimensions of injustice that create local opposition and that’s what activists and researchers have been increasingly making more clear, no, and showing that it is not about NIMBY, it is not about people not knowing what can be the benefits of hydropower plants, or just reacting emotionally because it’s being built close to them, but it’s about them knowing what is important for them and for their local communities and for their culture.

So researchers are, all even more recently, no, being more aware also of the dangers of using NIMBY as an explanation and again, actually, even for researchers, as I’ve also highlighted in a lot of my work, that move is only now starting to happen. But for developers and even for, as I said, politicians, governments, local authorities, media, NIMBY is very often used to just dismiss when local communities oppose these infrastructures and obviously, it is very helpful for them to precisely dismiss and delegitimise local communities’ opposition. And so that’s why I think it is helpful to more and more not use the concept of NIMBY, or only use it to show how actually we are talking about issues of injustice when people oppose energy infrastructures, and trying to engage policymakers and local authorities and developers more and more through this lens of injustice and the inequalities these projects often create.

NM: Thank you, thank you, Dr Susana. It was really wonderful having you here, on this episode. I really enjoyed talking to you and discussing about energy colonialism in the global South and in Global North as well. I would really like to thank you for taking the time to come and share your over a decade of experience with us.

SB: Thank you so much, Nyasha; it was really great to discuss these issues with you. And yeah, thank you for all the very important questions that you brought to our conversation as well.

NM: And, thank you, Shahzad, for hosting us today.

SG: With that, I would like to thank our guest, Dr Susana Batel, and our interviewer, Nyasha Milanzi, for joining us on this episode of Atmospheric Tales. Thanks to all our listeners for tuning in; make sure to subscribe and share!

In this episode we will discuss coastal zone management, sustainable development, and social and gender impact assessment in Barbados.

Vulnerability, adaptation, and coastal zone management
Blue Economy and sustainable tourism in Barbados
Social and gender impact assessment

Our guest Dr Janice Cumberbatch is a Lecturer of Social and Environmental Management at the University of West Indies at Cave Hill, Barbados. She has over 30 years professional experience in participatory research, environmental management, social and gender impact assessment, heritage tourism management, meeting facilitation and training. She has also published several articles in the areas of environmental management, climate change, social planning and sustainable development. Her research is focused on participatory approaches to social and gender impact assessment; Investigations of social and gender resilience in climate change and disaster risk management; and Applications of change management in the public sector and in civil society groups.

Our interviewer Shifali Mathews is a PhD student in Environmental Health and Engineering at Johns Hopkins University. Her research focuses on using environmental epidemiological methods to promote health equity and environmental justice in the era of a changing climate.

Episode notes and references:

Unleashing the blue economy of the Eastern Caribbean
Case Study Barbados: Policy, practice and science: perspectives on climate change and tourism in Barbados – conflict or congruence?
Tourism in the Caribbean and the Blue Economy: Can the two be aligned? (Chapter 11 in The Caribbean Blue Economy)

Music by: Ritesh Prasanna

Audio editing and transcripts by: Paras Singh and Raag Sethi

Podcast website:https://atmospherictales.com

Transcript:

JC: Janice Cumberbatch (Guest)

SM: Shifali Mathews (Interviewer)

SG: Shahzad Gani (Host)

SG: Welcome to Atmospheric Tales, a podcast that amplifies stories and experiences related to air pollution and climate change from around the world.

I’m your host, Shahzad Gani, and welcome to another episode of the Atmospheric Tales. Our guest today is a lecturer of Social and Environmental Management at the University of West Indies at Cave Hill, Barbados. She has over 30 years of professional experience in participatory research, environmental management, social and gender impact assessment, heritage tourism management, meeting facilitation, and training. She has also published several articles in the areas of environmental management, climate change, social planning, and sustainable development. Her research is focused on participatory approaches to social and gender impact assessment, investigations of social and gender resilience in climate change and disaster risk management, and applications of climate change management in public sector and civil society groups. I’m excited to welcome our guest, Dr. Janice Cumberbatch.

Our interviewer today is Shefali Matthews, who is a PhD student in Environmental Health and Engineering at Johns Hopkins University. Her research focuses on using environmental epidemiological methods to promote health equity and environmental justice in the era of a changing climate. Welcome to the show, Janice and Shefali!

SM: Thank you so much for the introduction, Shahzad, and welcome to the show, Janice!

JC: Thank you very much for having me.

SM: I’m thrilled to have the opportunity to discuss your perspectives on social and environmental management, which really brings together multiple disciplines to solve critical issues in people’s daily lives. In particular, I’m excited to learn about your expertise in the blue economy, and participatory processes, as well as heritage tourism management and coastal zone management in Barbados, and in the Caribbean region. Barbados, like other Caribbean countries, is particularly vulnerable to the effects of climate change, such as sea level rise, ocean acidification, and more frequent and intense natural disasters, such as hurricanes, to name a few. Could you elaborate on how these effects can impact the lives of the inhabitants, and the economic activities of the country?

JC: Certainly, no problem at all! Thanks very much for giving me the opportunity to discuss these issues. So one of the features that’s really critical to dealing with the fact that we’re so vulnerable to climate change, is that we must have effective early warning systems; and, that seems straightforward, like, just have an early warning system. But, the truth of the matter is that, it has to be diverse; I just had a student who did research on this. You’ve got a heterogeneous population, you’ve got people who are of different ages, genders, socio-economic levels, different capacities. So, when you want to put an early warning system in place, you have to consider what are the diverse ways you have to use to get people informed. Apps are really wonderful; and that might work with the modern, you know, Gen Z population, but the older folk are still listening to the radio. So, we actually have to be very diverse in designing early warning systems. But then we have to think about things such as insurance, because trying to address vulnerability means that you have to put something in place for people who might not be able to prepare very well, and they need to recover, and some of the most vulnerable populations don’t have what they need to recover; and, insurance is a primary example of that. There are still sectors such as the fishing sector where people are unable to ensure their boats and their gear. In that regard, we’re really happy to have the CCRIF, because what the CCRIF does, and by the CCRIF, I’m talking about the Caribbean Catastrophe Risk Insurance Facility—they have made it possible for, first of all, governments to have premiums that allow them to apply for relief in the aftermath of something like a hurricane, so that timeframe that governments took to recover from a bad event. And you know, we have bad events regularly in terms of hurricanes in the Caribbean; we are one of the most disaster-prone regions, in that regard. Governments can now, based on the premium they have with the CCRIF, they can now apply for and get a cash injection to start the process of cleanup and recovery, getting utilities back in place and the like. But more importantly, what CCRIF has also done is put some other products in place; the one that I particularly like is the one that we call the COAST—the Caribbean Ocean and Aquaculture Sustainable FaciliTy, and that one targets the very vulnerable, especially the fishing communities, to help them in the aftermath again, of an event, to recover. So we have to think about products like the CCRIF and its other elements such as COAST, and how we can expand on those; we need to understand how we can get the mainstream financial institutions and insurance institutions to come on board so that these vulnerable communities like fishing communities, can better be prepared to respond in the event of a hurricane or a volcano. So yeah, we’re very vulnerable, but we have had some opportunities through, as I said, the Caribbean Catastrophic Risk Insurance Facility and its other products to help governments and vulnerable communities respond better; and, you know, we are working on getting things like early warning systems set up properly, so that it doesn’t just target a few, but it gets to everybody, understanding the diversity within our populations. If we don’t do things like that, then you know, we take really long to recover; governments are then plagued with trying to find ways to support the most vulnerable. Barbados experienced hurricane Elsa, I think it was back in 2019 perhaps and I may have that year wrong, I’ll have to check; but it was a few years ago, and the government is still housing some people and paying rent for people who lost their homes during Hurricane Elsa, because at the end of the day, what happened was that their houses were lost, and the government had to find somewhere to put them up. It was actually 2021, I just checked; so we’re starting 2023, and the government is still carrying the burden of paying for housing for people who lost their homes, and who didn’t have insurance during that period, and helping them put houses back in place, so they can move out of rental facilities, and get back into their own homes. These are just some of the realities of being a small and a developing state, with limited resources and vulnerable communities.

SM: Great, thank you so much for sharing. So, you did share some of the challenges and adverse impacts of climate change and these realities in this region, but you also did share some solutions such as the early warning systems. So, building off of these climate adaptation strategies, what do effective investments in coastal infrastructure look like to impact resilience and to also potentially yield ecosystem benefits, and what kinds of benefits are needed to ensure equitable results for tourists and residents?

JC: Okay, so Barbados has been very fortunate because we have taken coastal management very seriously going as far back as 1983, where we had a project to assess what we needed to protect our coastlines. And by 1996, we’d established our Coastal Zone Management Unit; the Coastal Zone Management Unit in Barbados is heralded as a significant, successful project and a successful unit, and the reason why, is because they have been able to get it right. It’s not just a case of investing in the hard structures; it’s not just a case of investing in revampments and groynes and boardwalks; it’s a lot more than that. What we were able to do through the Coastal Zone Management Unit, which we call the CZMU is, we started by the baseline studies; we studied it, we studied our coastal and oceanographic processes to understand how the Barbados coastline works, so you had to invest, first of all, in understanding your coastline. Because you had, first of all, to appreciate the fact that your coastline was critical; you had to have a vision of the importance and understanding of your coastline in terms of protecting, supporting your economy, supporting livelihoods and protecting your country as a whole; so we studied it. We then did comprehensive risk evaluations of our coastline, and we did multi-hazard evaluations in terms of wind and earthquakes and storm surges and erosion and the like. We did vulnerability assessments, including a social vulnerability assessment; we did risk assessments. We moved from there, and we’ve established, now what we call, the National Coastal Risk Information and Planning Platform, because we have to have a database that allows us to put all that information there, update it regularly, to be sure that we can constantly be able to respond effectively. It’s after you’ve put all of that in place, and believe me, that was done through significant loans from the Inter American Development Bank, but again, the competence of the Coastal Zone Management Unit, because they were well established, they had a plan, they had an act, their staff were competently trained, their capacity was built, they were able to carry out these programmes through these loans successfully; then you start on the infrastructure, because you can’t just go and drop infrastructure in the ocean—you can exacerbate the situation. So you’ve understood the situation, and then you start on the coastal infrastructure. We’ve done different projects; we’ve constructed different types of coastal defences, we’ve done shoreline enhancement, in terms of walkways and headlands and breakwaters, yeah, in an effort to reduce flood. We had coastal areas that were more susceptible to flooding than other areas; we had coastal areas that were more susceptible to erosion than other areas. By doing the study, we understood this and then we could design the correct offshore or onshore structures that would work, whether it was a revampment or boardwalk or otherwise. We also then invested in ecosystem-based adaptation; we did a pilot project looking at regeneration and construction. So understand that we didn’t just say, okay, we need to protect the city, we’re gonna put up a seawall—we didn’t take that approach. No, the approach we took was this, let’s understand our coastline, let’s put together a database, let’s understand the the climate risk, and then let’s design, let’s do modelling. And I can tell you that any structure that the Coastal Zone Management Unit puts in place, undergoes both mathematical as well as physical modelling, so they take it very seriously, and this comes at a significant cost. We have been very fortunate that the Inter American Development Bank has invested heavily in helping us to protect our coastline in this way. Yeah, that is, in terms of effective investment, you don’t start with the hard structures, you start with understanding your coastline, you start by understanding your risk, and then you design and implement, and sometimes you have to adjust them in instances where things may have to be adjusted. But yeah, that was the approach that the Coastal Zone Management Unit took, and it has, has worked for us so far.

SM: That’s great to hear, that the coastal zone management has really been tailored to the context of the local issues in Barbados. So, in addition to the impacts of climate change that we’ve discussed, there are other environmental issues such as plastic pollution, poor water and waste management, that threaten Caribbean countries economics and biodiversity. For example, studies in Barbados show that visitors value the quality of coastal and marine resources, such as white beaches, sea water quality, and thriving coral reefs. Therefore, tourism would be heavily affected by the loss of those assets. Can you tell our listeners what the blue economy is, and how it can integrate solutions that can guide Caribbean countries towards real sustainable development? Especially because the blue economy has become important in Barbados to the point where the Ministry of Marine Affairs has incorporated blue economy on its name and agenda. So if you can comment on how effective blue economy efforts and policies are, including main challenges.

JC: Sure, no problem. I smiled when you asked this question because we have seen in Barbados, and I’m sure you have similar scenes in the US and other parts of the world, cool soup warmed over, meaning, old concept new name. The thing about the ocean is that, we’re island people—Barbados is an island, the ocean has always been critical to our economy, our livelihoods, and the lives of Caribbean people. Now, new branding is cool; it brings new, renewed focus on the importance of an issue or a resource in this case, and sometimes it helps mobilise resources. And that’s how I like to see the blue economy because, blue economy is fundamentally talking about the use of ocean resources for economic growth, to improve livelihoods and jobs. Well, when you live in an island, you’ve constantly been using the ocean for those purpose. You use it to feed yourselves, you use it because of fish. You use it in your tourism product; people come and it’s our beaches that attract them. It’s critical to transportation and transportation routes. So when everybody started talking about blue economy, green economy, pink economy, I’m like okay, branding, nice, that’s rebranded, let’s brush it off, make it fresh; but the point is, let’s perhaps take a different look at it, and let’s understand how we can use it better. That’s how I see the blue economy. So, I think the epitome of how Barbados is perhaps demonstrating that it’s taking blue economy seriously, is that we’re finally getting our marine spatial plan in place. We’ve been playing with this for a long time now. We’ve had several efforts at establishing marine spatial plans, marine protected areas, whatever. But very recently—and again, the Coastal Zone Management Unit is central to this—Barbados received the grant from The Nature Conservancy back in July 2022, and it helped to establish something called the Barbados Environmental Sustainability Fund. And then, in September of that same year, the government of Barbados entered into a debt conversion transaction with the IADB again, with TNC, The Nature Conservancy as major partners. A critical part of the funding coming out of that debt conversion, is financing of a unit to establish our marine spatial plan. And in trying to establish our marine spatial plan, we’re finally saying, look, the ocean is critical to us, we have to protect it into the future; how are we going to do this? Let’s bring all of the players in place, so let’s have the difficult conversation. We will not be having a series of podcasts around easy topics, nobody does that; we have series like these around difficult questions. When you try to make your blue economy work for you, you have to consider the gains. Why do I say you have to consider the gains? You have to consider the gains because immediately, everybody thinks about what they’re going to lose. Everybody started saying oh, well, there’d be no fish zones, or we won’t be able to pursue oil and gas in the way that we might have wanted to pursue that particular industrial effort. So people immediately go to the, oh my goodness, we’re going to lose things. What we have to be clever and strategic in doing around the marine spatial plan, around trying to make your blue economy thrive, is look at what are the gains, and ensure that people buy into and understand the gains. Let me give you an example. Barbados has been engaged in solar energy since 1970; we established solar heaters on our roofs since 1970. You can do the mathematics. But we didn’t go beyond that; we were very happy to have warm water to shower with in the morning, but we missed the opportunity to take the option of this beautiful sunshine that we have and use it, you know, for more renewable energy source options. So now in 2023, we’re trying to move towards having fully renewable energy economy by 2030 or thereafter, but we had, sort of, heaters since 1970. Gas, however, gas products were nice and cheap; so we weren’t worried about putting gas in our cars. Now they’re phenomenally expensive again, we’re thinking about moving in this direction; climate change is more of a threat, there’s more of an impetus to move in that direction. The issue, though, was back then, we did not see beyond, well, we just have some warm water, but you know, we don’t have to pursue this any further, because we can afford gas. We didn’t think about the broader gains to us, as a society if we had pushed that envelope further. So if I come back now to blue economy and marine spatial plans, if we want to be successful, if we are really going to push the gains that we can gain from our ocean resources, and use them sustainably, we can’t just look at the short term benefits, as we did with solar heating in 1970, and beyond; we have to say, what are the long term benefits of pushing the envelope with our blue economy? Making a decision to establish a marine spatial plan that undoubtedly will have some stakeholders losing or changing the way which, a better way of putting it I should say, change the way in which they operate, but ultimately, they’d be, again, down the road. If they’re short term gains that you can demonstrate from now, that’s wonderful as well, but getting everybody to buy into the gains is actually the difficult part of blue economy, and marine spatial planning policies, and the like, because people tend to see the short term losses. So the trick is, the struggle is, how do we get everybody to buy into the blue economy gains, in terms of the long term? It also has implications for coastal developments, not just fishers, not just oil and gas, but as a tourism destination; everybody who wants to build a tourism facility, wants to put it on the coastline. We already know that that is a problem, we already see the risk of coastal developments. So the question is are we really, really ready to push the envelope on blue economy and taking the difficult decisions now by getting people to buy into and support the long term gains?

SM: Thank you so much for sharing your perspective. I definitely agree that this will require a paradigm shift from short term thinking to long term thinking, especially with the current issues that we’re facing in terms of sea level rise and other pertinent environmental challenges, along with what we’ve mentioned before about social vulnerability. Tourism is also an important economic activity in Barbados, that besides the beneficial outputs, it also brings harmful human practices that are destroying coastal marine marine environment through overfishing, marine pollution, ecological imbalance, and more. Can you describe the main challenges for the sustainability of tourism in the face of climate change, along with all other relevant socio-economic barriers, such as green taxes and operating cost, especially in small island developing states of the Caribbean region?

JC: I’m happy to do so. I’d like to answer that question, if I may be permitted, by giving a quote from a book that was written by Polly Pattullo, back in 2005. And to my mind, the best part of that book was the preface written by Michael Manley, which, of course, was a former prime minister, back in Jamaica, you know, in that era. And introducing her book, Michael Manley had this to say—listen very, very carefully to this—because tourism is a balancing act, and the statement gets it right. Michael Manley said, “The tourism industry is here to stay, but the question which we dare not ignore is whether we the Caribbean people, are going to have the wit and the will to make it the servant of our needs. If we do not, it will become our master, dispensing pleasure on a curve of diminishing returns, while it exacerbates social divisions and widens that legacy of colonialism—the gap between the small comfortable minorities, and a large majority that is barely surviving at the social margin.” He said that it could be an engine of short term cash enhancement, and long-term disaster, or it could be that thing that supported and benefits our economies. I like that quote; I really, really love the introduction that he gave to that book, because that is what tourism is in the Caribbean. That’s what tourism is, in Barbados—a balancing act. We need tourism. I teach in an environmental department—Centre for Resource Management and Environmental Studies. My students all come and they’re all excited to support the environment, and save the environment, save turtles, save coral reefs; and it’s laudable, it’s wonderful, good goals. And then they all say, oh, tourism is the enemy. And I looked at them, and I said, but you’re here because of tourism. If we take tourism out of the equation, how are we going to feed ourselves in some of our islands? Not only are we very disaster-prone in the Caribbean, in terms of hurricanes and volcanoes, but we’re the most tourism dependent region in the world. So let’s take tourism out of the economy; how are we going to eat? We can’t eat. So that’s our real time challenge. Tourism does have negative elements, but we have to control it. And that’s what we’ve been trained to do for decades, in the Caribbean, and in Barbados. It means, again, the point I made about convincing people about the gains for everybody. We have to have hotels, we have to have attractions, we have to have Airlift; but what do we do about those to make them sustainable? How do we encourage and enhance sustainability in all aspects of the very diverse tourism industry? Because tourism is accommodation, it is transportation, it is food and beverage, it is, you know, it’s everything. There’s nothing that tourism does not touch; and I challenge you to tell me something that tourism does not touch in an island context. So, what do we actually do? Well, we actually need to perhaps return to elements such as things like the Green Climate Fund, because you have funds out there that can help regions that can help regions, that can help islands like Barbados, better manage how they are able to organise themselves, organise their economies, pay their people. And let me explain what I mean about that. If you are a prime minister, and you have to meet your weekly or monthly wage bill, you have to do it, you have to have money. And most of the time, that money is coming from tourism. So when somebody comes into your country, and they offer to develop a resort, in a standing mangrove, you have a hard decision to make. Everybody talks about corrupt politicians, I’m not talking about corrupt politicians. I’m not wasting my time with that. I want to talk about the politicians who meanwhile, have a really hard time, because literally, they have to figure out how on earth do I protect this wetland, but pay these wages on a regular basis, because this particular resort will bring me more taxes and all the rest of it? Now, this is where the other products come in, right? This is where things like the Green Climate Funds and the conservation funds, such as the one that we’ve established to set up the marine spatial plan, comes in, but we have to understand how to use those things. A very, very important statistic that I learned recently, you know that we have the Green Climate Fund, okay, and they were like, 312 billion US dollars in climate finance flows to non-OECD countries in 2018, but only 31 billion went to Latin America and Caribbean. And if that figure was further disaggregated, a very small amount would have come to the Caribbean. And the reason why it is, is because we have not yet sufficiently understood how to reach out, assess and grab those funds, to help us support the conservation and climate elements that we need to do, so that perhaps we’re not that reliant then, on the tourism dollars, so we can negotiate better with the tourism developers and say, yeah, we want your money, but this is how we want your money; or we can say that from a position of strength, like yes, tourism is important to our country, but you’re going to do tourism in a way that it benefits our people, that they’re going to get the right jobs because they’re trained for those jobs, so don’t bring outsiders in, and let us hire our nationals from manager right through the chain of employment opportunities in your property, and your operation. Put your facility where we have earmarked, because we have a national development plan that tells us where tourism development is going to take place; but it’s not where you want to put it, it’s here, because we’ve done the studies, and this is the best place for us. But we have to leverage everything that is available to us, so that we can stand up with a position of strength, and say that. If you’re always chasing after a dollar bill from a developer whose main interest is profit, and not necessarily the sustainability of your country, if you’re always chasing that dollar bill, you’ll never get to sustainability. But if you go after the products that are there, like the Green Climate Fund and all the rest of it, you build up your resilience as a small island developing state. If you understand those mechanisms—and they’re complicated—but we have facilities like the Caribbean Climate Change Centre in Belize, and the Caribbean Development Bank, who are trying to put on courses to help their member countries within the CARICOM (Caribbean Community), which is the grouping of Caribbean countries; we have those entities trying to build capacity in Caribbean countries and Caribbean governments to understand how to access those funds to strengthen the resilience, to build your adaptive efforts. And then, from that position of strength, you’re able to see, we still want tourism, but we’re defining the context in which we want that tourism. So it’s all connected, you can’t divorce investor funding in terms of the money that you’re gonna get from a private sector investor to build a resort, from the funding that you’re trying to get from something like the Green Climate Fund; you have to leverage the two of them for a position of strength to build your resilience as a small island developing state.

SM: Wonderful.I love that you shared the relevant quote in example, because it really shows the practicality of tourism in both economic and political activities. I’d like to shift gears a little bit and learn more about the participatory processes that you’re involved in, particularly social and gender impact assessments. What particular considerations go into these social and gender impact assessments? And in general, how do you characterise social vulnerability? And I’d also be interested in learning if there are certain vulnerable populations that have been overlooked.

JC: Okay, so yeah, social and gender impact assessment is something that I’ve been doing for about three decades now. My role in the overall environmental impact assessment is to ensure that the voices of the potentially affected populations are heard. Okay, so you understand that environmental impact assessment is a tool, it’s a decision making tool; it’s a way of looking at a potential development, be it a golf club, or a coastal tourism resort, a new factory, a new road, a new solar farm—there are so many different things that we’re considering. At the same time, in a small country like Barbados, we have to consider how this proposed development, which is supposed to do all these wonderful things and bring jobs and enhance our economy, moves us towards sustainability. Environmental Impact Assessment is a tool that helps us to understand how I will interface with a bio-physical and social environment, so that we’re certain that by giving approval for this project to take place, we’re getting the benefits, and we’re minimising the negatives; that’s what EIA is all about. I come into the picture and give a voice to the potentially project-affected populations. So, if this is a road, a road is a wonderful thing. But, or any form of construction, the ultimate end goal is a good thing, but the construction period is a nuisance. There’s dust, there’s noise, there’s traffic diversions, impacts on people’s lives; elderly people who are at home, because they’re retired, they get impacted most because they’re getting noise all of the time. My job in doing social and gender assessments is to understand those impacts, make recommendations on how you can reduce those; because you’re going to build a road more likely than not, and you need the road, but you’ve got to construct it, so there going to be negative impacts. How can I identify who is likely to be most affected by those negative impacts in the short term? So, I have to characterise the impact; it’s going to be loss, it’s going to be noise, it’s going to last for X amount of period of time, it’s gonna be intermittent, it’s gonna be this time of the day or that time of the day, these are the populations that are most likely to be affected by it, how they’re going to be affected by it, here are recommended mitigation measures to reduce the impacts on them for the public good—because the road, or the boardwalk, or whatever we’re trying to build, is the public good. Now understand that project affected people can be all types, because I finished a project recently, where we were looking at additional coastal infrastructure for the protection of the island, but we have people who own properties on the coastline. They may be wealthier than some of the rest of us who can’t afford coastal properties, but they are project-affected people; they’re very concerned about the short term impacts that I just described, in terms of the construction. But they’re also then concerned about the long term impacts in terms of security. If more people can access the coastline now, because we’ve made it more accessible by a boardwalk, are they likely to have more security concerns? Because of course, we also have to factor in the turtles, we can’t put bring, or put floodlights on that boardwalk. So my job then is to interface with these stakeholders at all scales, and try to understand their issues, and make recommendations on how to relieve the stress on them. Now you use the word vulnerable, and the thing about social vulnerability is that, you know, it’s talking about how countries, people, communities respond to or recover from something. And some elements make us more vulnerable than other elements. So for example, obviously, if we have a lower socio-economic status, if we are an ethnic minority, if we are the elderly, if we’re impoverished, we are more likely to have a harder time recovering, from people who are the opposite of that, and they have wealth, and they have insurance and they have property. If somebody with insurance has a damaged property, they will pull the pin on their insurance policy, and get the money to do the repairs. If somebody doesn’t have an insurance policy, the government has to come to their assistance. So that’s what we’re talking about when we when we meet social vulnerability. In Barbados, we have the elderly to consider; they’re particularly vulnerable, and they may or may not have a support system in that maybe their family lives abroad, they no longer live in Barbados. People with disabilities are especially vulnerable, because they now have either a physical or a mental incapacity that prevents them from doing what fully abled people can do, so, they have this additional challenge in trying to face the hazard or the problem. The youth are particularly vulnerable, usually because the unemployment rate among young people is usually higher than with other demographic groups, so they have a hard time bouncing back. And another group that’s particularly vulnerable are the LGBTQIA+ group, because many of our societies still have laws that make them illegal, make their practices illegal; we still have societies that frown upon that group. So literally, by virtue of their lifestyle, they’re more vulnerable. So we have groups that are faced with the same climate-related hazard, faced with an economic challenge, their options are reduced, and they’re less able to respond. And that’s what I look at, I look at those social vulnerabilities. I also look at issues such as the built environment, because some things in, within the built environment might also make people more vulnerable in terms of where they’re living. Their choices of location may be limited, and therefore, they may be living on slopes that are prone to slippage, or they may be living in unregulated housing, which is also known previously, as you know, squatter communities with limited utilities or other resources. So their built environment can also be a factor that will contribute to their problems. Barbados is a very small island, it’s only 166 square miles—so the urban-rural split for us, it’s not as big an issue, but in larger Caribbean locations, people who are in very rural locations, sometimes also are disadvantaged, by basically not having easy transportation access, by not having basic access to some provisions, such as water and electricity in the way that you would in an urban or suburban experience. So social vulnerability are the inherent characteristics of, you know, gender, race, ethnicity, social status, but also external factors that make you vulnerable. Can you access medical care easily? How far are you from a medical facility? And if you get to that medical facility, can you afford to pay for it? Do you have a free system? And even if the system is free, how long do you have to wait for it? Are you on social security? Is it enough to meet your basic needs? Those are some of the social vulnerability issues that I look at. And then when you interplay those social vulnerabilities in the context of climate, and the elements of climate that makes life more difficult in a small island developing state like Barbados, you understand why those groups are particularly vulnerable.

SM: Wow, you bring up key points around environmental justice, as the same populations that you mentioned with these socio-economic stressors, also face the most risks of climate hazards. Thank you so much, Janice, for joining us today.

JC: It was my pleasure. I hope that my few views are understood and I have added a little bit of wisdom out there that might be helpful to a few.

SG: With that, I would like to thank our guest, Dr Janice Cumberbatch, and our interviewer, Shefali Matthews, for joining us on this episode of Atmospheric Tales. Thanks to all our listeners for tuning in; make sure to subscribe and share!

In this episode we discuss a just energy transition for India with a focus on socio-cultural aspects, limits of technology-centered approaches, and exploitation and employment in the renewable energy sector.

Socio-cultural aspects for just energy transitions
“Smartness” beyond the technical
Extractivism and exploitation in renewable energy
Employment in the renewable energy sector

Our guest Dr. Ankit Kumar is a lecturer in Development and Environment at the Department of Geography, University of Sheffield. His research interests are situated around climate and energy justice. He enquires on justice questions working at the nexus of culture, knowledge and politics, conceptually drawing from postcolonial/anticolonial studies, critical development studies and environmental geographies. He was a postdoctoral researcher at the School of Innovation Sciences, Eindhoven Institute of Technology (TUe) from 2016 to 2020 where he researched social and institutional aspects of off-grid smart energy systems and taught on issues of globalization, development, and sustainability at various undergraduate and postgraduate levels. He also worked in a small Indian consultancy firm on carbon finance and feasibility assessment of small-scale renewable energy projects in South Asia. He has a PhD in Geography from Durham University where his thesis was on social and cultural aspects of access to modern energy in rural India. He has a BSc degree in Botany (with honors) from Delhi University and a MSc degree in Natural Resources Management from TERI University. Find him on Twitter.

Our interviewer Vaishnavi Rathore is a Land and Climate reporter at Scroll Media based in New Delhi, India. She works on stories related to environmental justice and democracy, governance of commons, forest, and land rights. Her journalistic stint also includes her time as an Environment Associate at The Bastion — a development journalism organization. Before she ventured into full-time environmental journalism, she spent two years working on ground with communities and their relationship with natural resources. Her experience in the state of Gujarat with Foundation for Ecological Security exposed her to challenges of localizing governance, while working with forest dependent communities in the Himalayan landscapes of Himachal Pradesh introduced her to the Forest Rights Act. There, she was with Himdhara Environment Collective, and was involved in spreading awareness on the Act, facilitating its implementation, researching and advocating on it. Find her on Twitter.

Episode notes and references:

Energy geographies in/of the Anthropocene: Where now?
Expertise, legitimacy and subjectivity: Three techniques for a will to govern low carbon energy projects in India
Beyond technical smartness: Rethinking the development and implementation of sociotechnical smart grids in India

Music by: Ritesh Prasanna

Podcast website:https://atmospherictales.com

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This is the final half of a two-part interview with Mustafa Santiago Ali in which we discuss Environmental Justice in the United States.

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